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Dani Lemberger, who led a breakaway Israel mission, sues Scientology for libel and fraud

DaniTami
We just spoke with Dani Lemberger, who let us know that he’s filed suit against the Church of Scientology in Tel Aviv.

“We’ve been working hard at it the last two years,” Dani told us by telephone from Haifa. “It wasn’t easy. It took time to find the right lawyer.”

Dani and his wife Tami are suing Scientology for 3 million shekels, about $820,000.

We broke the story two years ago that Dani and Tami had led a Scientology mission in Haifa, the Dror Center, to break away from the official church, a stunning and very visible part of the exodus that has seen many longtime members leave the organization in recent years.

Since then, Dani tells us, Scientology has waged a campaign that was intended to ruin his reputation and shut down Dror Center.

“Somebody leaked to me, from the city of Haifa, that the church was running a campaign at the planning and supervision department to try to get me shut down. Over some building permits,” he says. “They were using phony names to write anonymous complaint letters about me. And they were using data from my pc folders at Flag.”

That’s a serious allegation that we’ve heard many times in relation to Scientology — that private details members divulge in supposedly confidential confessional sessions end up being made public as retaliation for members who dare to leave the organization. In this case, Dani says that details he revealed in confidence during sessions at “Flag” — Scientology’s spiritual mecca, the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Flordia — have been used against him recently.

“I think this lawsuit is unique in that I am also suing them for fraud at Flag,” Dani says. “So there’s quite a few things will be embarrassing for Scientology in this lawsuit and will have a big impact. I’m actually suing them about Scientology. About misleading people about the misuse of the tech.”

Dani says he’s going to get us a translation of the legal complaint soon, but for now we have a translation of a story which appeared in the Israeli press today.

Here’s the translation that was provided to us…

Yediot Aharonot, 3 November 2014

A Couple from Haifa is Suing the Scientology Organization in the amount of 3 Million Shekels

By: Lital Dobrovitsky

A lawsuit in the amount of 3 million Shekels was filed yesterday by a couple from Haifa against the International Center of Scientology and the Center of Scientology in Israel. The couple, who claims they were members of the Church of Scientology for 32 years, allege that they were slandered and libeled by the organization’s management, which caused damage to them and to the self improvement center that they manage in Israel.

The couple, Dani and Tamar Lemberger, claim that until the end of June 2012, they were members of the Church of Scientology, and even progressed markedly on their own “self improvement” process according to Scientology doctrine, to what is considered the next to highest grade in this process.

As part of this process, they had many sessions of the technique of “auditing”, from the word audio – to listen, which is conducted in privacy between the guide and the person receiving the auditing, under a commitment for total secrecy. The couple alleges that this promise of confidentiality was breached in their case.

The lawsuit states that in late 1991, after a long stay in the United States, the couple returned to Israel and opened a private center for the delivery of Scientology consulting services, which operated until June 2012 under license of the Church of Scientology.

They claim that they expanded the center and frequently received commendations for their achievements from the organization’s management in Israel and worldwide.

According to the lawsuit, all changed in March 2012, when Dani Lemberger sent a letter to the chairman of the Church of Scientology, in which he expressed his concern that the church is not operating correctly to achieve its goals, that it focuses on fundraising of huge sums for wrong purposes, and that it does not build local leadership.

According to the plaintiffs, a few months later, in June 2012, they were sent a letter which declared them, “Suppressive Persons,”. This, says the lawsuit, “means, in Scientology terminology, that they are antisocial personalities and that they are unworthy of remaining members of the Church of Scientology.”

Immediately following this, they claim, the organization’s management, in Israel and the world over, embarked upon a punitive and smear campaign against them, while using confidential information from their personal files and from the auditing sessions they received. As a result, they claim, tens of their customers left the self improvement center they manage.

The plaintiffs clarify in the lawsuit that they are no longer willing to be identified with the Church of Scientology, and that their center also announces that it is not connected to Scientology.

The plaintiffs are represented by Adv. Yoram Aviram. The defendants’ statement of defense has not yet been issued.

The Center of Scientology Israel has responded as follows: “No lawsuit has yet been presented to us. If and when we receive such, our legal representatives will study it, and we will submit a response accordingly. On the surface, it looks like false claims are made, aimed at nothing but damaging our good reputation and extorting money unlawfully.”

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on November 3, 2014 at 13:30

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

 

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  • Dale A.

    When people stand up for themselves, I have a reaction in the back of my throat. It makes me want to weep.

    • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

      “Let Justice be done, though the heavens fall”

    • Barbara Angel

      Yes its really important to stand up and be counted, as Jon Atack said about “group think” and “following the herd” see more below>>>>
      “Immersed in this new science, it soon became clear to me that the dynamics of exploitative persuasion exist in every human society and, indeed, in every human being. We are all subject to groupthink, to following the herd, to grabbing ideas without proper consideration, because we all too easily accept the authority of those who spout those ideas. As L. Ron Hubbard said, all authority relationships are hypnotic”. He also refers to the influence of the media role in making shit the norm.

  • Sherbet

    “I think this lawsuit is unique in that I am also suing them for fraud at Flag,” Dani says. “So there’s quite a few things will be embarrassing for Scientology in this lawsuit and will have a big impact. I’m actually suing them about Scientology. About misleading people about the misuse of the tech.”

    I’m trying not to jump the gun here, but I’m inferring the Lembergers are protesting (in addition to the smear campaign) the current church management’s bastardization of hubbard’s vaunted tech.

    • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

      Yes – prosecuting Scientology on the grounds that they ‘squirrelled the tech’ might be problematic in any jurisdiction, and also distract from more mundane complaints (financial fraud) that might win.

      • Sherbet

        Yes, exactly, OB. I was thinking how far a “tech squirreling” law suit would go.

        • stillgrace2

          I hope he’s suing for fraud, based on the non-delivery of promises made. I agree that a lawsuit based on “Miscavige changed the tech” is doomed, I will venture.

          • Sherbet

            I’m happy about any opportunity to drag cos into court. I’ll give a Hip, Hip, Hooray to the Lembergers for doing so, and I wish them luck.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              It may be a doomed (legal) argument, but if the question of ‘misuse of the tech’ gets an airing in court, it may come to the attention of wavering Scientologists.

              Consequently, even if they lose they may do some good. Still, I would like to see them win, and receive reparation, too.

            • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

              :) There is always a Happy Dance every time a Scientology crook is dragged in to court, but it may be that a written filing will be enough to get this dismissed real early. :(

            • Sherbet

              We’ll see. The Lembergers must have some confidence they’ll succeed, and, presumably, so do their attorneys.

            • Peter

              How scio is generally perceived in Israel *might* have some bearing, though the Jews have had a good rep as far as religious rights are concerned. Many christian and muslim churches functioning daily there.

    • dagobarbz

      Isn’t Garcia suing them for fraud at Flag, for spending Superpower donations on Oak Harbor or something?

      • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

        The Garcia case alleges straightforward financial fraud. The Lemberger’s say that they are looking at “misuse of the tech” too. This is the potentially weak point.

        If (for example) they were to complain that auditors were not being trained properly under Misacavige, the court would have to decide what ‘proper training for auditors’ was. This is an impossible task. Since auditing has no meaning outside of a shared fantasy, here are no objective ground that a court could render judgement from.

        Every example of ‘misuse of the tech’ I can think of suffers from the same problem – it requires a court to decide whose faith in which obscure doctrine is most justified on the basis of no evidence whatsoever – any legal action on this basis is doomed from the beginning.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          “misuse of the tech”

          Oxymoron if there ever was one.

          • Missionary Kid

            I’m putting “Misuse of the tech is an oxymoron, if there ever was one.” on the list of things said about Co$. It’ll get posted later.

          • ze moo

            Oxy clean out the moron.

        • pluvo

          The ‘misuse of the tech’ could also be e.g. to use the ‘confidential priest pertinent’ information the parishioner gave on trust for a smear campaign

          • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

            If this is presented as a doctrinal matter it must surely be judged as one – which is something a court of law cannot do. To be successful there, you have to show that the other party broke the law, not your ‘religious’ rules.

            Besides – is there any priest-penitent privilege in Israel? You would think so, but I, for one, have no idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_law

            Is there an Israeli lawyer in the house?

        • carpe canem

          A “shared fantasy?” So auditing is like phone sex?

          • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

            In both cases, people are pretending that both the world and human relationships are easier to deal with than they really are. – and at least one of them is deriving some comfort (and perhaps even a ‘release’ or a ‘win’) from this.

            I should say so.

      • Sherbet

        Sure, among other things, the Garcias take exception with that costly, paid-for-many-times-over-by-other-contributors scientology cross atop Flag.

        • dagobarbz

          I thought it was weird, speaking of that cross, that there wasn’t a bigger whoop-de-do when it was installed to crown DM’s dream, the completed Super Power building. It was not a huge event and it should have been. Throwing Big Events to mark Scientology historical milestones is what they do.

          • Sherbet

            You’re right. There should have been the Unveiling of the Cross Gala, and then, every year, the gala to commemorate the Anniversary of the Unveiling of the Cross. For a price, of course.

          • TheQueenofBulgravia

            It was a liability issue! The stage might have collapsed under the pod of whales who were individually harpooned to pay for the whole double-cross and they were liable to catch on to the con by the toy navy. Alas, one did….”Angry Whale thy name is Garcia!”

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-rBsyBak08g

        • Phil McKraken

          It’s like that time I invested with Bialystok & Bloom in that play “Springtime for Hitler.”

          • Sherbet

            Ah, I thought I recognized the blue hair and support hose.

    • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

      Right, that was my take also, which has been a losing argument here in the U.S.

  • Observer

    Oh Captain Miscavige, will you ever stop with the foot nukes? I sure hope not.

    If Dani has the kind of info he claims, and I see no reason why he shouldn’t, I wonder how long it will take Miscavige to cry Uncle and write a big fat settlement check?

    *refresh*

    • Sid

      Unfortunately he will do anything to delay or win these court cases,, except tell the truth that is.

    • Peter

      If that happens, I’ll bet Dani won’t sign any muzzling clause.

  • ze moo

    “that it does not build local leadership.” Oh, Lemburger, haven’t you noticed that COB is the one from who all blessings flow? He is the new Lroon, who must be worshiped and paid off. Israel will find CO$ actions fraud and libelous, but will there be local funds to payoff the Lemburgers? The publicity about the ‘confidentiality’ of the pc folders alone will keep many Israelis out of the scam. Oy gevalt……..

    • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

      To be sure, there is no “leadership building” done anywhere by these Scientology crooks, their business offices are failing or have already failed everywhere except for (apparently) Clearwater.

  • Seannie5

    “aimed at nothing but damaging our good reputation ”

    lol

    • Innoculated

      Yes, if this isn’t the pot calling the kettle black.

    • April

      Reading that line gave a hearty chuckle also. Don’t they realize that outside their tiny bubble, the ebola virus has better PR value than the CO$?

    • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

      :) I also had to smile at that “good reputation.” :)

  • ItsIBBy

    morning bunkerites. i had a problem with my old account, which sucks because all of my stats went kaput :(

    but here i am :)

    • Baby

      Just glad to see you sweetie.. We don’t care about stats.. We just care about you!

      • ItsIBBy

        hello gorgeous! I need to start spending more time around here. I do miss the bunker greatly

        • Baby

          We are open 24/7 365.. and will always keep a light on for ya sweetie..

          OOOOh ” Gorgeous..” Ahhhh yes, I remember those days..(when I would tell myself that..)

          ha

      • Ardent

        Hi Baby! Always nice to run into you. Here’s a big hug.

    • i-Betty

      Welcome back, IBBy! :)

      • ItsIBBy

        thank you Miss Betty! I went astray but I am back!

        • Missionary Kid

          Welcome back, from me, too.

          • ItsIBBy

            Thanks MK! xx

    • Eclipse-girl

      You have been missed.
      Some times its important to take a breather and realize there is life outside of the Bunker.

      I love the new avatar.

      • ItsIBBy

        Thank you E-g! Yeah Sherlock is my new obsession. Had you asked me last week if there were any actors that I absolutely loved, I wouldve shrugged, and then a friend sent me a clip of Benedict Cumberbatch and well.. I’m a goner 😉

        • carpe canem

          Have you joined the ranks of us Cumberbitches?

          • ItsIBBy

            Indeed I have! I’m fashionably late to the party but its well worth it

        • Eclipse-girl

          Well……
          BC appears (sort of) in the Hobbit films – NO SPOILERS

          I like BC, too. I do recommend – BUT it is NOT the same – ELEMENTARY with Lucy Lui and Jonny Lee Miller (1st hubby of Angelina Jolie – added for trivia)
          Sherlock is far better.

          • ItsIBBy

            I’ve actually seen Desolation of Smaug, just never made the connection until recently. I’ve seen a lot of his films but I didnt get the hype until I saw Sherlock and noticed how gorgeous he actually is

            • Eclipse-girl

              It is not just his being eye candy. He really is a good actor.

            • ItsIBBy

              Oh I cant agree enough on the fantastic acting. Within watching the first 15 mins of series 2,episode 1, I was stunned. Its crazy good. I’m looking forward to the Turing film, not just for him, but because it just looks amazing

            • Eclipse-girl

              I wrote a longer reply that got swallowed bu Chrome or Discus.

              Alan Turing was a hero of World World II and he was a hero of computer science.
              He was discriminated against – and suffered – by the gov’t of Britain.

            • beauty for ashes

              i hate when that happens!

            • Missionary Kid

              There’s a new film coming out telling his story in relation to the Ultra secret and decoding the Nazi Enigma machine.

            • Eclipse-girl

              It stars Benedict Cumberbatch, and Keira Knightly

            • Missionary Kid

              Thank you. It has to be better than the Mick Jagger financed picture about the breaking of the code.

            • Innoculated

              I saw him in “Frankenstein” play doing the Dr. part.

            • Eclipse-girl

              BC did play a very small part in the first Hobbit film, too.

        • Innoculated

          Have you seen the episode of best man at wedding? Hilarious! Now you fit in with MRMycroft.

  • Innoculated

    This is good news, Tony. I would think Mr. Cob would be about to blow a few fuses by now.

  • DeElizabethan

    Exciting good news. This can be a major case and I certainly hope so. Good for you Lembergers and stay strong.

    • Sherbet

      May I say it’s always good to see you here, De? There. I said it.

      • DeElizabethan

        Thanks Sherb. I try to be here more but just don’t speak much, but am keeping up. Always love to read you.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t currently have a copy at hand where I can cite the exact language, but I do remember a paragraph in one of the contracts one had to sign at FLAG in order to receive services which essentially said that (paraphrasing) “confidences provided by a PC to an auditor would be kept secret as long as the PC remained in good standing and abides by the ethical codes of the church.”

    Without going into all the ramifications of the above (and the upside down nature of what the word “ethics” means in Scientology, versus it’s more commonly understood meaning in the larger world) what the language of that paragraph contained was an implied threat of blackmail…you play the game our way or your “out-ethics” confessions will be revealed.

    This written component of the Scientology process for exploiting and then defaming Scientologists is very close to the definition of both extortion and protection, both of which if continued over an extended period of time to protect the operators of a criminal enterprise, can be viewed in the US as “Racketeering.”

    This type of activity is why the RICO statutes (in the US) are probably the best avenue for ending the worst of the Scientology abuses in America and thereby greatly weakening the ability for the conspirator operators of the global scam to do similar harm elsewhere.

    • dagobarbz

      We will never betray your trust…as long as you are one of us.

      • Ardent

        Charming people, really.

        (guess the tone of my voice and win, er, well….have a great day!)

        • Peter

          Your tone comes across clearly, Ardent. :)

          • richelieu jr

            Lugubrious?

      • LRHBT

        KSW#1 fully applied… and you should have seen Mr. RA James Byrnes swear when implementing those 10 KSW points…

        “…
        When somebody enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration
        of the universe—never permit an “open-minded” approach. If they’re
        going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard, and
        if they’re aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us—win
        or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being
        Scientologists.

        When we do
        instruct somebody properly he becomes more and more tiger.

        When Mrs. Pattycake comes to us to be taught, turn that wandering
        doubt in her eye into a fixed, dedicated glare and she’ll win and we’ll
        all win.
        …”

        Mmmmhhh… is that the famous “Scientologist-glare-look”?!?

        • Mark Foster

          Ah, synthetic personality successfully installed.

        • carpe canem

          “But I don’t wanna be a tiger!”

        • carpe canem

          Mrs. Pattycake doesn’t have a wandering eye. She has a wonky eye.

          • richelieu jr

            And that’s not cake she’s patting, either!

        • valshifter

          turn that wandering doubt into a fixed hypnotized subject.

      • Axton

        Kind of like the footballers who enjoy roughing up the opposing fans.

      • carpe canem

        Should you at any time or for any reason request a refund, we will return your money promptly, cheerfully and with no questions asked, provided certain basic eligibility criteria are met. To determine whether or not you meet these criteria, please refer to this simplified explanation of our refund policy:

        1. Only Scientologists in good standing will be given refunds.

        2. Your refund request results in loss of your “good standing” status.

        3. Ergo you will not be given a refund. Buh-bye.

    • FollowTheMoney

      Are you sure, Anon? That would be like Catholics kneeling at confession and saying ‘ Bless me Father for I have sinned. It has been a day since my last confession. You may share my sins should I ever leave the fold.’ A doc like that would have been a boon to the de Crescenzo case where they claimed preston penitent privilege.

      • Missionary Kid

        That paragraph pretty much negates any claim of priest-penitent confidentiality, and I’m sure that they’;re not stupid enough to include that in Laura’s lawsuit. It’s out and out blackmail, which, of course, Co$ specializes in.

        • FollowTheMoney

          I thought perhaps Laura’s lawyers might have submitted it.

      • Anonymous

        “…That would be like Catholics kneeling at confession and saying ‘ Bless me Father for I have sinned. It has been a day since my last confession.You may share my sins should I ever leave the fold…”

        Yes, it would be similar to that.

        Plus the additional “bonus” in Scientology of the auditor writing down what the PC confesses (in some cases verbatim, and in some case not)…but wait there’s more… (now) most auditing sessions are being overtly or covertly video-taped. The video taping is done under the guess of “auditor training / review” or other false explanations, but the net effect is the same…auditing sessions are usually video taped, especially in Sea Org and Ideal Class 5 Orgs.

        Outside of an auditing session there is also the concept of a “security check” which is a metered interview / confession where there is no pretense of confidentiality. It is not uncommon for those subjected to a metered “security check” to then be coerced into signing a written summary of the things revealed, as prepared by the church. These written “security check” summaries have often been provided by the church to the press or others who have reported on or shown interest in the revelations of various whistle-blowers that have left the church. It is standard, practice and there is written policy that says so.

        Nothing unusual about that, is there?

        The person doing the “security check” frequently starts the “metered interview” with the cautionary statement…”I’m not auditing you.” The idea of course is the person on the receiving end has been advised that what they are about to reveal is not considered confidential. This is a coercive practice that is the pretext to blackmail…it could be considered as a form of a “protection” racket.

        BTW…HelluvaHoax over at ESMB suggests the church not use “I’m not auditing you” at the beginning of a security check and instead substitute “I’m not helping you.”

        • Missionary Kid

          “I’m not helping you” applies to just about everything Co$ does.

          • Anonymous

            Ultimately, it would appear that is true in many situations.

          • Anonymous

            There is another element to the whole “confessional” ruse in Scientology that needs to be mentioned within the context of this discussion and that is Hubbard’s assertion that a person’s concern about revealing their previously undisclosed disreputable acts (witholds) is PROOF of that person’s “case” being in “restimulation.”

            It has been known for centuries that confession can cause someone to feel better.

            Hubbard monetizes this ancient truth in Scientology by making confession (under various technical names) a very significant component of “The Bridge.” He also misdirects people by asserting that if one is concerned about what they have already confessed, they (per the tech) must still have more to confess. Likewise, if one is concerned pre-confession – that is PROOF that they have stuff to confess. It is a tautological absurdity, as is much of Scientology.

            The insidious nature (and stink) of the Scientology mind-twist is only viewable from a safe distance. When one is inside, that insidious nature is well hidden and fully in operation against one’s better interests.

            • Missionary Kid

              Exactly.

            • Missionary Kid

              Like most conspiracy theories and unsupported beliefs, tautologies are always involved.

            • aquaclara

              It’s all really so awful that former members have to worry about this. It’s something I hope the judge understands when Laura’s case finally makes it to the judge. Maybe it will come out in this new case, too.

            • Anonymous

              IMHO – this issues (the protection Racket which is the foundation of Scientology’s laughably named “ethics” system) would best be handled by criminal or civil RICO prosecution, as that is where it probably best falls within existing statutes and also where there would be the resources and PUBLIC INTEREST POLITICAL WILL to end this multi-decade scam.

            • aquaclara

              It just baffles me that even after all the information is put out there by Tony and others that it is still such an untouchable subject with law enforcement.
              Maybe they need a live person, screaming loudly from a building, before they will react.
              Dead bodies don’t appear to count.
              Tax fraud doesn’t appear to count.
              But I’m not giving up hope, because the tsunami is building. And when it comes, David Miscavige will have no where to turn.

            • Anonymous

              What the authorities need to act is evidence.

              Chatter on this blog and elsewhere on the web is just that…chatter. The chatter (and especially the reporting that leads to the chatter) can affect the political environment which in turn can affect the likelihood of appropriate authorities having the willingness to take a look.

              But to take a look, actual evidence has to be presented to those authorities by credible person(s) who themselves have relatively clean hands, but who witnessed the actions of those who did not and can present a compelling narrative (with backup documentation) of what they actually saw / heard.

              The reason activity such as “Fair Game (by whatever name church leadership calls that activity today) exists, is to prevent the above from happening by extorting those who have witnnessed illegal activity into remaining silent about what they witnessed due to their fear of what will happen to them for reporting what they witnessed.

              It’s a complex situation, but it is also coming to a denouement soon.

            • aquaclara

              Your comments are so spot on. I learn a lot from your insights – thanks for sharing them here for all our benefit. After all the damn secrets that have let them hide all these years, I am especially appreciative of those who speak up and share. They don’t make it easy.

          • April

            You should add that to the “things said about scientology” list, MK. Quite accurate.

            • Missionary Kid

              I will. Thanks.

            • indie8million

              Did you say, “Things that Shouldn’t Be” April? So sorry. I misread what you said. Might be a similar list though. 😉

            • Missionary Kid

              I changed it to, The phrase, “I’m not helping you” should precede just about everything Co$ does.

        • FollowTheMoney

          Yes, recording auditing sessions is completely unnecessary if the only goal is individual spiritual enlightenment.

        • April

          “The video taping is done under the guess of …”
          I think maybe you meant to say ‘guise’ rather than ‘guess?’

          • Anonymous

            Yes – thanks – fixed.

            I “guess” I had an M/U.

        • Jon Hendry

          It would be fun to get a chance to sit across a table from Miscavige, and to sit down, crank up a Tone 40 voice, and say to him “I am not auditing you”. Just to see his reaction. Even without a meter present, he might react automatically, at least for a moment. Long enough to get a freakout on tape.

          • Anonymous

            Interesting that you would mention this, because when Jessie Prince (former # 2 in Scientology, before Marty Rathbun became the former # 2) gave Dave Miscaviage a security check (on Hubbard’s orders) David Miscavige “was crying like a child who had taken a crap in his pants.”

            Here is a link to the full story by Jessie Prince: http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/prince-death.html

      • http://www.4chan.org/ Vistaril

        Its actually written into policy. Check out HCO POLICY LETTER OF 1 JANUARY 1960 ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE FOR REDUCING OVERTS where you will find the following . . .

        . . . Every professional Scientologist is bound by the Code of a Scientologist which is more strict by far than the codes binding medical doctors or psychiatrists. Clause nine of this Code is: “To refuse to impart the personal secrets of my preclears.” Anyone’s secrets are safe with Scientology until the person himself no longer considers the matter important. But despite this, the guilty are afraid of us, especially when their dark and hidden facts, if revealed, would send them to prison for actual crimes. Even then, more than once, Scientologists have “gotten the law off somebody’s back” at the person’s own request and have obtained conditional releases for malefactors on the well-accepted grounds that they have been processed . . .

        ^^^ emphasis mine.

        . . . and you can accurately state that when a person is declared an SP it is taken as proof that the person no longer “considers the matter important.” Also, there is more than ample evidence of other policy developed by L Ron Hubbard which explicitly states that information gathered during “confessions” must be shared with the Ethics Personnel. In addition, the FBI raids of Scientology produced several written instructions from people as high up in the organisation as Mary Sue Hubbard requiring others to go through all PC Folders, not just the material gathered during the “confessions:. Not also, that the accurate term for “confessionals” is “Security Check” and was only called “confessional” to assist with the religious cloaking to forge a fallacious link with the Catholic practise of confession.

        Here’s some DOX detailing the requirement to look through PC Folders when the Toronto arm of the Scientology racket was looking for a plant . . .

        • FollowTheMoney

          Very interesting post and dox, V. The part you highlight, presumably meant to counterfeit true confidentiality, is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. The dox is fabulous. I love the irony of section 16.

        • Anonymous

          With time, one could easily pull a dozen documents where Hubbard makes the point, in one manner or another, that undisclosed overts (bad, hidden actions) are the foundation of one’s “case.”

          There may even be some truth in the idea that one can become the ultimate victim of their own poor conduct toward others, but it is the motivation for emphasizing such in auditing (and making such careful notes of the confessed acts) that makes the practice abhorrent in Scientology – because ultimately whatever therapeutic value their might be in confessing one’s transgression’s, the idea that those confessions would then be used against you by the very organization in which one had placed their trust (by confessing) renders Scientology into the waste bin of evil cults.

          Confession taken too far turns into degradation. Degradation taken too far turns into torture. Degradation and torture are not routes to betterment or freedom. (To state the rather obvious.)

        • Roadrunner

          Sorry, wrong policy letter, that text is supposedly deriving from an article in Scn magazine Certainty (Feb 60). It is not even in those policy volumes.

          Being declared SP is still no reason to assume the person “no longer considers the matter important”. This condition of SP is assigned by the church, NOT the person himself!

          By the way, found this: “Overts disclosed in sessions may not be used for justice purposes. Therefore only crimes discovered by routine investigation are actionable.” LRH
          (from HCO PL 15 Nov 70 “Confessionals”)

          This goes against the claim that “ample evidence of other policy developed by L Ron Hubbard which explicitly states that information gathered during “confessions” must be shared with the Ethics Personnel”.

    • sookiesookie

      I hadn’t yet heard that this was in the contract — it’s shocking. It’s letting people know from the very beginning that you can never really be honest about anything you don’t want revealed later on. If only more people would read that and refuse to sign such bogus BS.

      • Anonymous

        Another aspect of the Scientology contracts is that one is rarely (if ever) given a copy of what one has signed. Doing so is (allegedly) “against policy.” As one does not have a copy of what one has signed, it is extremely difficult to either adhere to the agreememnt or defend oneself against breech of the agreement by the other party.

        This may also put the church’s contractual “protections” (heh) at risk, as in many US jurisdictions an executed contract that is not copied to all signatories is unenforceable.

        And in all jurisdictions…it is STUPID.

        (OK…I made that last part up.)

        • sookiesookie

          That is insane. “Here, sign this document that warns you we’ll soon have the ability to blackmail you, and no, you may not have a copy because we may want to alter it later to include even worse stuff. Here’s a pen.”

          • Anonymous

            Actually one has to use one’s own pen.

            The church would never provide a pen as that would be “out-exchange.”

            (OK…I made that part up too.)

            Heh.

        • Peter

          No, you merely noted the obvious. :)

        • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

          You’re right, though. In all jurisdictions, for all time, stupidity has been punishable by extinction. It’s a (natural) law that is strictly enforced.

          Scientology came to the attention of the court years ago, and it won’t be long now before sentence is passed..

      • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

        Customers aren’t allowed to read it in the first place.

        • sookiesookie

          Is that true? How can they physically sign it without being able to see it? (You might be joking, but I don’t know enough about the contract to recognize a joke about it.)

          Just the description so far has blown my mind yet again (I know, always worse than you think it is.)

          • Mark Foster

            SOOKIE…ALWAYS WORSE-YES.

          • LRHBT

            …they video tape it, when it is important…
            (NOT MADE UP!)

          • Anonymous

            You do get to see it when you sign it…but are not given a copy of the executed contract afterward. The church keeps the only copies.

            And yes…you are right…it is a mind blowing arrangement…in both the literal and metaphorical sense.

          • Lady Squash

            Sookiesookie, let me explain. You “see” the paper, but you are not given it to examine. It’s a rush, rush, “sign here, sign there” kind of thing. You’ve already been convinced the service you are signing up for is the next best thing since sliced bread and you want to get started. You believe they are going to help you and all this paper work is just a silly formality. Who reads the small print or wants to exercise skepticism at a time like this. Great things are about to happen and everyone is very excited.

            • TheQueenofBulgravia

              Re: High Pressure Sales….Wog or $ci….
              Quote:
              …”Whether the product being pitched is a donation, an investment, or an alarm system, high-pressure techniques are calibrated to prey on your emotions.

              The goal is to get you to rush into a decision that, in the heat of the moment, seems to be not only a simple solution, but the only possible solution.”

              …”A high-pressure sales pitch is designed to befuddle you. You don’t just ignore your better judgment, you lose touch with it.”

              ….”You’re no longer thinking, you’re just caught up in emotion.”

              ….”By using multiple, often subtle techniques, marketers can “build up anxiety so someone is paralyzed and wants the salesperson to make a decision.”

              http://www.cleveland.com/consumeraffairs/index.ssf/2012/08/10_ways_to_save_yourself_from.html

              In the above article “calibrated” is a key word…The high pressure and “Confusion Tech” is a carefully programmed drama…the victim just isn’t aware their new BBF are wolves in sheepskins.

              I understand, that In $cientology, if you balk, larger harsher coersion will be applied by multiple $cibots, who will “discourage” you from even leaving the room for any reason.

              http://cdn.superbwallpapers.com/wallpapers/funny/sheep-attacking-the-wolves-21035-1366×768.jpg
              Advisory: Wolves beware of the sheep! Tick Tock, Tick Tock

            • Lady Squash

              “Wolves beware of the sheep!” Good one!

            • Lady Squash

              Dear QueenofBulgravia, Yes, balking is very dangerous. One way such technique is as follows: Let’s say that your next service is going to cost you $12,000 and you are handed over to the SCN salesman to get this money out of you. After hours of being pressured you more or less “agree”. You leave, go home and rethink the whole thing and realize you simply can’t do that. You call back and tell your salesperson that you’ve changed your mind. Now the trouble starts. There is no such thing as changing your mind in Scientology. First thing that will happen is that the sales person will be very angry with you. They’ve already put you down for that amount. They need that amount to make their target and so on. If that doesn’t work, they escalate this into an ethics report that will paint you as a liar, as someone who has gone back on his word and as someone who put the entire organization at risk and thus all of mankind. It is implied that this will look very bad on your record as you try and progress.
              I was in that situation once and by the time the salesperson was done with me I was shaking in my boots and somehow came up with the money, putting myself at risk.

            • TheQueenofBulgravia

              Dear Lady S, I am SO glad that you are FREE and can change your mind at your real discretion, without dire consequences! It’s scarey enough to read about your experience with the $ci hammermill. “Salesperson” is too benign a word. Boutiques have “salespersons”. Like “clears”, NONE exist in $ci! The Regs in turn are hammered by their upline. No-one wins in the lower food-chain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SafIxxSGDiM

              You are a Survivour! :) Here is a Tiara for your Collection. So much more satisfying to buy Diadems than bridges to nowhere. As Mama, The Queen, taught us, “change Your Tiara and your Mind at least once a day!” <3
              http://www.tutu.com/images/prod/ntn/tiara_10272.jpg

            • sookiesookie

              I can relate to the high-pressure sales techniques and have been in a couple situations where I responded the same way (just go ahead and sign, don’t break the mood or momentum of the moment) — luckily without the dire consequences of this particular contract. The technique itself is sinister. I’m glad I’m (finally) experienced enough to recognize it now for what it is and Back Away.

        • Missionary Kid

          That alone would be enough to invalidate it.

    • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

      “There’s some nice things in your PC folder, Pal! Wouldn’t want that to get out, now, would ya? No. That’s right. You behave yourself and keep handing over the money and there won’t be any ‘accidents’ with your papers, Pal.”

    • LRHBT

      They had a similar passage in their green scientology passport.
      But in that passport it also said, that one is entitled to STANDARD TECH in the first place!
      AND THAT IT WAS VALID FOR THE LENGTH OF THE UNIVERSE! Ups…

      • Mark Foster

        The irony meter just exploded.

      • Anonymous

        Interesting…I wonder if the statute of limitations on any of the crimes of Scientology leadership equal the “Duration of this Universe.

        Either way, maybe their prison sentences will be for that long.

        • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

          They would just declare that this universe had come to an end and been replaced by a new one which (coincidentally) appeared to be identical.

      • allioops

        this item i vaguely remember from my past life with the “wasband.”

    • LRHBT

      That are a few examples of such “Scientology contracts”.

      https://www.scribd.com/doc/221518045/Church-of-Scientology-Religious-Services-Contract

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/231764928/Church-of-Scientology-Orientation-Film

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/231764594/Church-of-Scientology-You-Will-Never-See-or-Own-Your-Preclear-Folders

      https://www.scribd.com/doc/229695970/Scientology-Does-Not-Guarantee-Anything

      The best one basically says, that neither you, nor anyone else of your family may ever say something negative about SCN or its leader, or executives etc. etc. etc.!
      WOOWWW!
      They should take a look at their own Creed of the Church.

    • Axton

      Protection for a price. There should be laws against this. Oh, wait….. Never mind.

    • janedoe2

      Anonymous, good information. Can you also copy and past your entire comment on Mike Rinder’s blog so that they can read it too. It does come down to extortion and protection, which is racketeering. Amazing that the wording in those forms you sign is such that it gives the church the right to spread harmful lies about you if you don’t play by their rules.

      • Anonymous

        “…Can you also copy and past your entire comment on Mike Rinder’s blog…”

        No can do…but feel free.

        Heh.

    • edge

      I can’t believe a contract like that can be upheld. It is blackmail, plain and simple. Even the word “confidences” is laughable, as the Laura DeCrescenzo case proves, dozens or even hundreds of people see what’s in those folders. Hell, we’ve had mailers here and at Rinder where they advertise HIGH SCHOOL KIDS sorting through them. It is all bullshit.

      • Anonymous

        The sheer audacity of the deception and mid-twist that Scientology leadership operates upon is a significant part of the explanation for why only 11 of its senior leadership have (so far) actually been sent to prison in the 60+ years that the scam has been running.

        The average person who has not been exposed to the lies, deception, misdirection, blackmail, and tortious interference which church leadership employs to protect it’s criminal enterprise, simply would not believe that such can routinely occur.

        Scientology was designed from the beginning (and has steadily been tweaked to adjust to circumstance) so as to operate in disregard of the common sense understandings of civilized people of goodwill.

        Scientology has a malevolent foundational purpose and the leadership seeks to forward that malevolent purpose for its own self-serving benefit.

    • J. Swift
      • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

        calling all the shoopsters here, we need a graphic for this

      • Anonymous

        That is a useful summary indeed.

        It could be reduced even further to a infograph which generically illustrates the specific violations of specific statutes by specific individuals that constitute the:

        “… [RICO] pattern of racketeering activity” or “collection of an unlawful debt” and who have a specified relationship to an “enterprise” that affects interstate or foreign commerce….”

    • Narapoid

      It seems perfectly OK and a little absurd to even suggest not being a good little PC when you are trusting the structure of ones faith. Auditing doesn’t work unless you have trust.

      That one-sided contract only rears it’s head when absurd, off-policy and evil actions from the church forces rebellion.

      • Anonymous

        What appears to be happening is that the church leadership is finally reaping a tsunami of cilvil litigation form the people it has ripped off for decades. The asymmetrical nature of the contracts it now REQUIRES people to sign before they can receive “services” from the organization that has a decades long history of ripping people off, is additional evidence that Scientology leadership operates with malevolent intent. That leadership now seeks to strip people of their civil rights (via asymmetrical contracts) before they are ripped off, making it more difficult to seek remedy after the fact.

        What is most likely going to happen is that those very contracts will be used to convince a judge that church leadership knows that it’s operation is fraudulent and that the contracts are examples of the extortion and protection schemes in place to prevent the defrauded from seeking justice.

        That’s exactly what the RICO statutes were designed to “handle.”

        • Narapoid

          May the RICO suits come in like an avalanche.

    • indie8million

      Exactly. Racketeering. From the word, Racket: noun

      An organized illegal activity, such as bootlegging or the extortion of money from legitimate business people by threat or violence. A dishonest scheme, trick, business, activity, etc.: the latest weight-reducing racket. Usually, the rackets. organized illegal activities: Some say that the revenue from legalized gambling supports the rackets.

      Sounds like “all the above” to me. See: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Racketeering

      “The punishment for violating the criminal provisions of RICO is exceptionally severe. If convicted, a defendant is fined and sentenced to not more than 20 years in prison for each RICO violation. Furthermore, the defendant must forfeit any interest, claim against, or property or contractual right over the criminal enterprise, as well as any property that constitutes the racketeering activity or that was derived from the racketeering activity. Finally, RICO contains civil provisions that allow a party who has been injured by a RICO defendant to recover from the defendant in civil court. A successful civil RICO plaintiff may collect treble damages, or three times the amount lost to the defendant, as well as attorney’s fees and other costs associated with the litigation. The intent of the many and various sanctions is to cripple, and ultimately eradicate, organized crime enterprises.”

      “Racketeering activity under federal law includes a number of criminal offenses, including: Bribery; sports bribery; counterfeiting; felony theft from interstate shipment; Embezzlement from Pension and Welfare funds; extortionate credit transactions; Fraud relating to identification documents; fraud relating to access devices; transmission of gambling information; Mail Fraud; wire fraud; financial institution fraud; citizenship or naturalization fraud; obscene matter; Obstruction of Justice; obstruction of criminal investigation; obstruction of state or local law enforcement; witness tampering;retaliation against witness; interference with commerce, bribery, or extortion; interstate transportation in aid of racketeering; interstate transportation of wagering paraphernalia; unlawful welfare fund payments; prohibition of illegal gambling business; Money Laundering; monetary transactions in property derived from unlawful activities; murder for hire; sexual exploitation of children; interstate transportation of stolen motor vehicles; interstate transportation of stolen property; sale of stolen goods; trafficking in motor vehicles and parts; trafficking in contraband cigarettes; white slave traffic;restrictions of payments and loans to labor organizations; embezzlement from union funds; Bankruptcy fraud; fraud in the sale of Securities; felonious manufacture, importation, receiving,concealment, buying, selling, or otherwise dealing in narcotic or other dangerous drugs; and any act that is indictable under the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act.””

      Bring it on, Your Honor.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, like that.

        Specifically: “RICO provides powerful criminal penalties for persons who engage in a “pattern of
        racketeering activity” or “collection of an unlawful debt” and who have a specified relationship to an “enterprise” that affects interstate or foreign commerce.”

  • Seannie5

    Can I ask a question to the ex-scientologists – not those who were born into it but those that joined as adults.

    Did you not find it weird that you had to pay so much money to learn about a religion when other religions are free? [more or less]

    • Innoculated

      Might depend on time period. I was in so long ago, people were just beginning to be trained as “ministers”. The services (auditing) were presented more as self-help with hyperbole.

    • ItsIBBy

      I hope I can chime in even as a never in. This is one of the things about Scientology that has always baffled me. I can walk into pretty much any other mainstream church and get an explanation/history about their religion and it wouldnt cost me a thing, though I may make a donation as a thanks for them taking the time. Only in Scientology, it seems, would I have to pay admission to learn anything of substance

      • Sherbet

        Recently, my mom was very sick, in a nursing home far from her home town. Since she was a devout Catholic, I contacted a nearby church and asked the priest about performing what used to be called Last Rites. This was NOT her home parish, and he did not know her. The priest was happy to oblige and made a special trip to see her, anoint her, and give her communion and perhaps a little comfort in her last days. When I called to thank him, I offered to send a donation to his parish. He wouldn’t let me. He said it was his mission and duty to be of service. He insisted I not send any money. Regardless of the bad reputation the Catholic church and other mainstream churches have (and often a well-deserved bad reputation), I was very comfortable with the feeling that I was not buying services. They were not for sale. Unlike another pseudo-religion we all know about…

        This was a little off the subject you brought up, ItsIBBy, but sort of related to your point.

        • Ardent

          See, Sherb? That’s called a real church and REAL ethics.

          • Sherbet

            I like to think so, Ardent, although I, too, struggle with the suspension of disbelief any person of faith has to effect. When it comes to “All churches make you believe weird stuff,” I can’t argue with that. I believe weird stuff.

            • Ardent

              Well, Sherb, to follow this along, the whole subject of Theology and related issues like Particle Physics and Cosmology are in themselves very complex and profound. It is little wonder that ‘weird stuff’ is believed by most of us – including the now popular Atheistic position. In truth, we exist in a very strange place, and our attempts to explain it and understand it are both fascinating and confounding.

            • Sherbet

              My son is an avowed atheist, and we respect each other’s beliefs completely, because, after all, who knows what’s really going on in that complex and profound universe? The idea is respect, not hitting anyone over the head, not proselytizing, and definitely not extorting people to pay for the ONLY way to live, which would be (gag) scientology.

            • Ardent

              Are we related? :-) But seriously, that hits the nail on the head, Sherb.

            • Sherbet

              This is indeed a Kumbaya moment, Ardent. 😀

            • Ardent

              …Now where did I put that old guitar…?

            • Missionary Kid

              The contrast with Co$ is telling. Nobody’s told either one of you to disconnect, have they?

            • Sherbet

              Nope.

            • Ardent

              I simply can’t imagine ANY church pronouncing such a terrible thing nowadays.

              But NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

            • Missionary Kid

              The Spanish Inquisition has been revived in sec checks.

            • Ardent

              Apparently, But the outfits pale in comparison. Cheap-ass culties!

            • Missionary Kid

              *Snickersnort* Damn right.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              I didn’t expect you to mention the Spanish Inquisition…

            • Ardent

              😉

            • Missionary Kid

              Ardent started it.

            • Ardent

              Who, me? Never!

            • Missionary Kid

              You’re the one who mentioned the Spanish Inquisition. Thank you.

            • Ardent

              Aw, Nurtz! Got me.

            • TheQueenofBulgravia

              Free, free, Confession IS good for the soul…at least you didn’t break Godwin’s Law and mention Hitler! Go in Peace, my Son.

              http://www.shizen-lemag.fr/blog/uploads/2010/10/point-godwin.jpg

            • Ardent

              Ha ha. Yeah, that happens a lot. Weird.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born
            • Ardent

              Ha ha ha…Always makes me laugh! Thanks!

            • Peter

              As well as in gang reg cycles.

        • ItsIBBy

          That was an amazing story, thanks for sharing Sherb, and I think it speaks exactly to my point. Scientology is one of the only religions where any kind of anointment comes with a price to pay, Emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially

          • Sherbet

            Yes, IBBy, and, until you pay, it’s all secret. Nice racket cos has going.

            • stillgrace2

              … a nice racket until the internet came along. Bwa ha ha!

            • Sherbet

              Mr. Sci Fi Window Into The Future himself didn’t see it coming. Snort!

            • Ardent

              E.M. Forster did, however! He wrote a chilling short story called ‘The Machine Stops’. If you find it, I recommend it. It is surprisingly accurate in the large strokes.

            • Sherbet

              I’ll ask Librarian Son to find it. Thank you, Lt.

            • Ardent

              My Pleasure Ma’am…Oh, just one more thing…

            • Sherbet

              Hahaha. I’ve actually been binge watching Columbo recently, because I never watched it the first time around.

            • Ardent

              Yeah…I LOVE Peter Falk, and mourn his passing. I have a boxed set on DVD….Bliss.

            • beauty for ashes

              have you seen him in “Wings of Desire”? lovely movie if you haven’t.

              http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093191/?ref_=nm_knf_i1

            • Ardent

              No, that’s by Fassbinder. use? I want to see it!

            • Ardent

              I MEAN (stupid auto-correct) that is by Fassbinder, yes?

            • beauty for ashes

              no it is Wim Wenders. sounds very close. Fassbinder is an older german filmmaker~ i know i saw a film of his in a film class. it was color and it looked like it was from the seventies.
              anyway i hope you enjoy it~you might want to check your library if you can’t find it.

            • Ardent

              Right! I read that in Falk’s brief autobiography. It is a very simple, short book, but fun if you are a fan. Try ABE Books to get a copy.

            • carpe canem

              My favorite Falk:

            • Missionary Kid

              A Woman Under the Influence was a tour de force, IMO. The scene that I remember is him basically telling the kids as he’s hauling them across the sand at the beach, “Dammit, you’re gonna have a good time whether you like it or not.”

            • stillgrace2

              You have piqued my curiosity. Thanks!

            • Ardent

              A pleasure.

            • Robert Eckert

              Second that recommendation. It is an odd mixture of failure to foresee (air travel in his future is still by zeppelin, and the great challenge is to outrace the Earth’s rotational speed and land at a local time earlier than the departure) and amazing foresight (the Internet is well depicted, and this was in the first decade of the 20th century).

            • stillgrace2

              Your recommendation sealed the deal for me and set me into action! “The Machine Stops” is already on my Kindle. It cost 99 cents and arrived with ten other stories. Short stories are ideal for airplane-reads! Thanks.

            • Ardent

              Hope you enjoy it!

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              Watch them all here http://watchseries.ag/serie/columbo

              And if you use Firefox https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ with Adblock+ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/ you can get rid of the advertisements.

              Now this really is getting off topic…

            • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

              Poul Anderson’s Sam Hall (1953) gets closer every day.

            • Missionary Kid

              I don’t recall that one. I’ll have to look it up. Thanks.

            • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft
            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks.

            • ze moo

              John Brunner’s Stand on Zanzibar predicted pretty much everything today. Larry Niven predicted CNN ireporter {people in the streets reporting} and the stealing of human organs for transplant. CM Kornbluth’s ‘The Space Merchants’ nails the current corporate climate. ‘Prediction’ in sci-fi {not sy-fy as that 3rd rate tv networks spells it} is a time {travel} honored tradition.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Mr. E made me read that – also The Master and Margarita by ? Bologkov

            • Missionary Kid

              I fondly remember reading Stand on Zanzibar because the stories started out interesting, but seeming disjointed, then tied together so well. I can’t remember ‘Space Merchants’ but I’ve probably read it. Kornbluth died much too early.

            • arcinva

              I just googled it and it’s free to read online at a few different places. I’ve bookmarked it for myself. :)

            • Missionary Kid

              I laughed at that one, but then added “Mr. Sci Fi Window Into The Future” to the LRH nicknames.

            • Sherbet

              Aw, Kid, it’s not worthy!

            • Missionary Kid

              He got so many things wrong, that’s a perfect one. The ratio of nicknamef LRH/DM is still about 1:4.4. DM raises more ire, because he’s alive, but LRH came up with the bullshit.

            • Ardent

              I think it stinks worse. Pig Shit, anyone?

            • Missionary Kid

              A baby’s shit that one isn’t used to can be worse.

            • Ardent

              Hmmmm. True. However, comparing His Satanic Majesty to a wee baby seems unfair to the baby.

            • Missionary Kid

              Since I’ve lived on a farm in the summer when I was a kid, I can recall driving down the road in the country, taking a small sniff of the air, and saying, “Pigs,” “cattle,” or “sheep” without looking at the animals being raised.

              Pigs can be particularly pungent. I was thinking type of smell, not the vast amounts, but you’re right.

              It’s too bad that Hubturd’s spew can’t be recycled to harvest the methane off of it. At least that way it would produce something productive.

            • Ardent

              Well, one could no doubt manufacture at least a half-year’s worth of the New York Times Saturday edition with all the wasted paper devoted to his mumbling, lunatic verbal salad.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m adding “Mumbling, lunatic verbal salad.” to the list L. RON HUBBARD’S WRITING AND SPEECH http://tonyortega.org/2014/06/12/more-proof-of-kerri-kasems-scientology-involvement-and-laura-prepon-lies-like-a-rug/#comment-1439058656

            • Ardent

              Thanks!

            • Ardent

              On a more serious note, I honestly think a considerable amount of Hubbard’s crapola really IS ‘verbal salad’, albeit, punctuated with the dreaded semi-colon. I have read some of his stuff, and I quite honestly think he was, certainly later on, quite deranged.

            • Missionary Kid

              It’s kinda like listening to a combination of a drunk, Joe McCarthy, and a conspiracy buff.

            • Ardent

              Exactly.

            • Sherbet

              I thought methane was causing a hole in the ozone layer. Pretty soon the view will be so clear, we’ll be able to wave at lrh sittin’ pretty on Target Two.

            • Missionary Kid

              IIRC, You can see through the ozone layer, but I get your point.

            • Sherbet

              Dayum! I’m obviously the product of a public school education, unlike those smart Delphi School students.

            • Missionary Kid

              I am a product of public schools, too. I just happen to have a fairly good science background.

            • Sherbet

              In Trivial Pursuit, science and geography questions leave me doubled over in pain. You can be on my team any day.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m fairly good at TP, it’s real life I have problems with.

            • Ardent

              I thought we were the products of Storks? I feel some cognitive dissonance coming to get me…

            • beauty for ashes

              sherbs you are cracking me up today! for some reason when i read this my brain read it with a girly southern accent. even funnier!

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              When I was 8 or 9 years old, we moved from the industrial north of England to the rural south-west.

              When we first visited Dartmoor, I gathered blackberries, in the hope that my Mum would make a blackberry pie with them. At this time, I wasn’t too clear what blackberries looked like, in the wild, let alone that they grew on bushes. Consequently, I gathered handfuls of sheep droppings. I thought the bad smell was just in the background.

              After spending some time walking Dartmoor I, too, can tell the difference between pigs, cows, sheep, horses by nose. But I miss the wonder of my first visit, when the grass was covered with blackberries.

            • Missionary Kid

              That was your introduction to $cientology. Fake blackberries.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              Which reminds me of the joke I heard, years later, about a drug dealer who sold sheep droppings to students for £10 each. He claimed they were IQ enhancing pills.

              The first student to take one chewed thoughtfully, then said “hang on, this is sheep- shit”. The dealer replied, “See, they’re working” then ran off.

              That’s Scientology

            • Missionary Kid

              True. I laughed at that old chestnut. Unfortunately, it often takes a long time to start tasting the sheep pellets.

            • ze moo

              MK, you know your shit.

            • Missionary Kid

              No shit.

            • Missionary Kid

              I added “His Satanic Majesty” to the LRH list.

          • richelieu jr

            In fact, the story is not amazing at all, but touching in the specific, intimate account (and I am hoping your specific wording means your mom is all right, Sherbet! Please, let her be all right…), and totaly banal and accepted practice for centuries on the larger scale.

            The whole point is–They do this every single day and have done for centuries, if not millennia…

            This is why all of Scientology’s attempts to say, ‘Well, the Cathos did the Crusades..’ or, ‘How ’bout the priests and the kiddy-fiddling?’ and create a false equivalency are so disgusting.

            One side has done horrible things and strived to improve and evolve, whilst stil serving their parishoners, the other has done ONLY the bad things (in spite of making 1000x as much noise about how much good they are doing. When was the last time you saw a Catholic Church Superbowl Ad?)

            It is kind of like Cancer responding to accusations of murder by saying people overdose on Tylenol. Well, yes. Yes, they do. BUt they also cure headaches. You, David Miscav–excuse me, ‘Cancer’ (I always get those two confused!) on CAUSE headaches– and that’s your good side!

        • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

          :) That is the type of religion I totally, totally approve of, I wish all religious practices were so beneficial as that.

        • Suppressive Tomato

          Condolences, Sherb.

          • Sherbet

            Thank you, Tomato.

        • Baby

          Oh Sherb.. That is a beautiful story.. I am sorry about your loss.. Mamas are special.

      • Ardent

        Yes, I agree. I may wander into a church for example in order to admire the architecture and sculpture (St. Peter’s for an example, or Westminster Abbey) and I, utterly volitionally, will stuff a note of currency into the lone, unmanned collection box. I have NEVER had a Priest, Vicar, Minister etc., ever EVER ask directly for a donation.
        My experience of the collection plate being passed around is similar: there was NEVER any pressure (save some peer pressure) to put even one thin dime into the plate. One does or does not according to whim or financial position. As a rule one tithes 10% of earnings per annum, but that is not enforced. An additionally I have not heard, since the dirty old days of purchased forgiveness in the Roman Catholic Church (Indulgences) of any church that hands out ‘Certificates of Status’. That notion, speaking ecclesiastically, is noxious.

        • ItsIBBy

          Indeed, in fact I can recall visiting a church in san francisco, simply to get relief from the heat as we were walking from one neighborhood to another. A VERY long walk. We sat quietly for about 20 minutes just enjoying the cool air. Nobody gave us a hard sell, simply an acknowledgment in the form of a nod and smile.

          • Ardent

            Absolutely my experiences as well. I could tell a long tale of Venice and a Monk in a monastery across the grand lagoon from St. Mark’s Square, but I think it creeps way to far from the subject at hand.
            EDIT: Spelling

        • Chee Chalker

          Oh the Co$ defenders just love to pull out the indulgences and excommunication comparisons….one time I actually had a debate about the Crusades! It’s OK for them to do what they do because the Catholic Church did something similar in the 1200s……I am waiting for the Co$ beheadings to start so I can hear “well, Henry VIII did it, we’re a young church, we’re learning as we go……”

          • Ardent

            One hears the distant sound of steel being honed to a fine edge…

        • Baby

          Columbo.. I did read your sweet hello note to me.. I was going to respond to my emails when I woke up.. and now I will say.. Hi Detective..

    • scnethics

      No, not at all. Once you fall into scientology, you believe scientology equals good, so you explain away this and every other negative thing about it. On the subject of cost, Hubbard did write an essay called “What Your Fees Buy” (later changed to “What Your Donations Buy”) where he explains where all the money goes, and really makes you feel great about every dollar you spend :)

      • scnethics

        Also, it was presented as not a donation, but rather a payment for something you get in return. It is believed in scientology that if you give to someone and get nothing in return, you allowed that person to become “out-exchange” with you, which is harmful to the person, because the guilt they feel from this will manifest itself in negative ways such as them becoming critical of you or doing something bad to you because they imagine you’ve done something bad to them. So it’s actually important that the church charges for everything so as to protect people spiritually – I’m not kidding, this is really how I thought about it :))

        • Missionary Kid

          Yeah, there’s no “paying it forward,” is there?

          • scnethics

            The widespread out-exchange created by paying it forward would be devastating to our society, so no :)

            • Missionary Kid

              So, you’re saying that one should never help others unrewarded?

            • scnethics

              No way! Poe’s Law! Just giving the reasoning the church has for not paying it forward. I don’t agree with it at all.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks for clarifying that.

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      No,the introductory courses are quite affordable. I believe $25 for the Communication Course and IIRC $180 for the Hubbard Qualified Scientologist Course or HQS. That was the one where you co-audit with another student Objective Processes. One of which is often referred to here as yelling at ashtrays. It was during one of these processes that I went exterior. That is to say I was able to view the world from a viewpoint outside of my body. A small price to pay for such an experience. I was told to not concern myself with the cost of upper levels as the more able I become it will be simple to make the money necessary. Also the people that are running the Mission don’t make very much money and that is very apparent. These people become your friends and are just as earnest in the study as you are so you don’t mind giving them money. It was never about the money at that time. It was about spiritual exploration and since these people had very little money I didn’t mind giving them some of mine.Later on it gets weirder. You find out that there is an international conspiracy between Psychiatrists, Bankers, and Governments to stop Scientology so that they can continue to enslave people and it is up to you to save the world. the money doesn’t mater when you are at war………..Yup, that is the mindset I had.

      • Seannie5

        YIKES

      • ItsIBBy

        I know the easy sell has been discussed here back and forth, six ways to sunday, but its still so startling to read how easy it is to hook someone

        • Cosmo Pidgeon

          I think it only hooks people who are looking for answers to possibly unanswerable questions. There were lots of us on a spiritual quest in the 70’s. People who could care less or already had a religion that satisfied these questions would never enter Scientology. Frankly it does not take to most people, also when it starts to get crazy most people leave.

          • ItsIBBy

            fascinating… Thank you for sharing your input. I’ve been a watcher for a few years and there are still so many facets and layers to learn about

          • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

            Would you say that there is a particular ‘personality type’ that sticks with Scientology – or is long-term commitment more to do with unusual personal circumstances (so that virtually anyone could anyone become a ‘true believer’ if they were recruited at a time in their life when they were vulnerable)?

            • Cosmo Pidgeon

              From my own perspective I would say a little bit of both. Personal circumstances that make you vulnerable open the door. That could be anyone at certain times of their lives. Usually young people are searching for answers. As we grow older I think people give up. As there are few answers. And yes I feel certain personality types will stay and become “true believers” as you say, but the mindset is not belief but certainty. The certainty you were looking for. There is no “faith” or “belief”… But gee to answer you question it could be anyone….and all kinds of people are taken in daily on less invasive scams….Why does someone vote Republican or Democrat?

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              This has been my (outsiders) intuition. Thank you.

            • Missionary Kid

              Part of growing up and growing older is that one realizes that they don’t have to go through all that navel chewing to get answers, but to live life, questioning it often enough, but without the obsession that one has when they are young with little experience, IMO.

            • sookiesookie

              “navel chewing” lol!

              (and a little “eww”)

            • Missionary Kid

              One of the things that I get to do, since I’m nearly 70, is recycle jokes and terms that are decades old. I get away with them because many people are too young to remember them, or they’ve lived in a different area than I. Navel chewing is one of them.

              My friends that have known me a long time are often tired of hearing them. I get to use them here. This is a new audience. 😉

            • Peter

              Ah, now us oldsters finally understand your method of torture!!! ROFL

            • Missionary Kid

              I deserved used that, because there aren’t that many of us here.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              I have old jokes like that – I like ’em, but everyone I know has heard them so many times I dare not tell them any more. For example definitions, like this: Cubicle – a square testicle.

            • Missionary Kid

              New audience.

            • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

              Get thee behind me…

            • Peter

              I’m still questioning it. Finding some interesting answers or avenues to further pursue. I can’t think of a better way to live life, frankly.

            • Missionary Kid

              Questioning is good, but self-centered, obsessive questioning, hence, “navel chewing” isn’t.

            • Peter

              But where is the border? How does one decide? One can never judge what it will take for someone else to “get” something. And who decides “self centered”? Or “obsessive questioning”?

            • Missionary Kid

              The test is whether or not self-examination takes over one’s life and interferes with their normal life. If one’s self examination takes precedence over actually making changes or taking actions that move their life along, the navel chewing or questioning is excessive.

            • Peter

              Well, MK, I think it is each individual’s choice as to the method, time and/or path they take. What seems “excessive” for one may just be the perfect method for another.

            • Missionary Kid

              The problem is that to a person, it may not appear to be a problem, and they destroy themselves with the self-absorption because they’re incapable of doing anything else. That’s an extreme case, but I have known people who work so hard at trying to know the unknowable that they don’t live their lives.

            • Peter

              Perhaps those ARE their lives, MK? The way you believe they “should” be living their lives may not be in agreement with them. And you really have no way of knowing that they’re “incapable of doing anything else.”

              For instance, many on this blog almost violently disagree with my take on MY journey through scio. Some think I am (or was) hypnotized. Some totally disbelieve anything I have to say. Many can’t believe that I got anything good out of it. So what can I do about their beliefs? Nothing. That’s part of *their* journey. I may think their journey is “false”. But I know better. No matter how good/bad their journey is, it is always *their* choice. I can’t grant them any more freedom than that.

              Many here are avowed atheists. They can’t prove their belief, but that doesn’t change their belief. Good for them. I don’t happen to agree for many well thought out and (to me) both logical and rational reasons. But you’ll not see me arguing with them. That’s *their* path, chosen carefully, either consciously or unconsciously. So be it. I can still wish them a safe and happy journey.

            • scnethics

              I would say these “types” of people are more likely to stay (and their opposites are more likely to leave). If more than one of these applies to the person, they are probably really stuck:

              1. People who have trouble seeing when they are wrong. Everyone has this trouble sometimes, but I mean people who really cannot consider that they were wrong about anything. These people are permanently stuck.
              2. People for whom auditing “works”. Some people have dramatic mental experiences, which they decide are life-altering spiritual experiences of deep significance. It’s hard to convince someone who’s had this kind of experience during auditing that scientology isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
              3. People who would rather just not know about bad stuff of any kind. There folks are really happy to follow Hubbard’s advice and not follow the news.
              4. People with really low self-esteem, especially if they have lots of money.
              5. Narcissists, and those with strong narcissistic tendencies, especially if they have lots of money or work in Hollywood.
              6. High-functioning schizophrenics, people who can readily accept the wild reality presented by scientology, get lost in it, and subsequently can’t do reality testing to find their way out.
              7. People who have been completely chewed up and spit out by the scientology machine, throwing away so much of their life that there isn’t much left, and have been mostly discarded because they aren’t of much use to scientology anymore. I know of a couple of these people and they are loyal to the core. They probably have one or more of the other problems listed.

            • scnethics

              And I personally know people stuck in scientology in each of these categories, which is how I put together the list :)

            • Eclipse-girl

              I have always been afraid of how I would act if I had been preyed upon by any cult, or been someone in a psychological experiment were one was told to hurt another person.

              I have been through a lot of therapy.

              Am I wrong as a “never in” to equate auditing with therapy?

              Good therapy is powerful and NOT easy. There were times I willing endured a two hour session. I left some sessions feeling angry or vulnerable. It is not easy to go through the crap of one’s life – and most people have stuff to deal with.

              I am derailing. My empathy is coming on too strong. Apologies.

            • Peter

              I go back well over 40 years. Auditing sessions then were no nonsense tough. I had to look at and deal with a lot of stuff. For me, it worked. Can’t/won’t speak for anyone else. And don’t care a whit what anyone else says about it. ANY therapy can be good if one digs in deep and really LOOKS at what is there and how one has been handling it. AA works for some and it, too, is tough.

              No apologies necessary, EG. ANY kind of questioning can become “therapy”. Any kind of honest “looking” iS therapy. Remember that those first into scio were not teenagers. Most were adults with a lot of life behind them. What I’ve always felt/said was that there is/was a lot of truth presented. The con part could not have worked otherwise.

              I’ve also said that whether or not Hubbard stole it, it was still truth. Take a look at the Code of Honour, for instance. I’ve used most of that to live by because it works for me and those I deal with. There are one or two points I don’t agree with and don’t make use of. The rest works…for me. When I was on staff, I relied on Senior Policy to function: “We always deliver what we promise.” Hell of a way to live one’s life. I’ve done my best ever since I saw that to live my life that way, treat others that way. Do I care if Hubbard stole it? Didn’t live by it himself? That was *his* life, this one is mine.

              We take our lessons where we find them. Going back and beating oneself up for something done in the past is pointless. But to find out the “why” of it can give one a lesson to use effectively to become a better person.

              I hope you got as much out of your therapy as I did out of mine. If you did, you’re a happier and more effective person. Good on your for the courage to have tackled it in the first place. And, for what it’s worth, all of life is therapy if we look at it that way.

              End of gabble. :)

            • daytoncapri

              Peter – keep posting. This is honesty and caring.

            • scnethics

              That’s a tough question. First, you should know that what you did in therapy was nothing like scientology auditing.

              Scientology therapy is easy, although it can be grueling. Hubbard tried his hardest to devise a therapy where you would always leave on an up note, and when that doesn’t happen, a special effort is made to fix it. Some people just don’t get any results from auditing, and for them, I think it is both difficult and impotent. Some people (like me) really enjoyed the counseling and felt great about it, but in retrospect, I only felt good because I thought that when things went well, it meant I was moving closer to a super-human state.

              In scientology auditing, you spend a lot of time answering questions that are weird or dull. “How could you be helped?” is an example. “Tell me a no-source.” is another. You answer questions like these repetitively, so you answer the same question again and again until something good happens. In retrospect, I can see that this repetition was driving me into the ground mentally, causing grogginess, anxiety, boredom and other unpleasantness. At some point, I would come out of this state and feel better and that would be that for that question. I would say something like “I feel like I can be helped.” in a cheerful manner and the auditor would take this as a “cognition” with “good indicators” and so would go to the next question (or wrap up the session depending). Scientologists believe that this makes a person better. I experienced short duration euphoria from it, which seems consistent with other reports. I can say with some certainty that the only benefit I got from auditing was this short duration euphoria.

              In Dianetics auditing, as least a person looks at real (maybe) incidents from their life. If they have really painful things in their past that they have not examined before, Dianetics could be beneficial – or dangerous, since stirring these things up without a professional around is not always the best idea. I would say that Dianetics is hard for the person receiving the auditing, whereas scientology processing is much easier – you just sit there and get processed :)

              Good job on the real therapy that you worked your way through. That takes strength!

            • Eclipse-girl

              I am not sure about strength – it was desperation or else I would die – i do understand why some people commit in suicide – there is often a great deal of pain

              Sometimes, not every time – the therapy was difficult.

              I do NOT have answers. I wish I did. I understand MY personal story a bit better. That helps. but it is not “a cure.”

            • daytoncapri

              If compassion can be sent your way via keyboard, you would feel it rushing towards you this moment. My solution to pain has been various – stomping on a bicycle pedal has worked for me better than anything. So I’m angry at someone – stomp on the pedal. So I’m feeling sad – keep on pedaling. As I ride, I persuade myself that I am flushing and sweating toxins away, and building up endorphins and somehow – true reasons or not – I start feeling better. And it lingers. Nowadays, even thinking of and seeing images of a bicycle will do me good. The cover of Adventure Cycling graces my kitchen table, and I stop, stare and feel, well, pretty good.

              Sorry to speak so much of my bike. Each of us have to find our own unique path and solution, this one just happened to work for me.

              Wishing best wishes and encouragement to you.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I have been riding my bike much more – but after Sept it is too cold for me.

              I appreciated your compassion and thank you.

              I understand that I will never know WHY. For me, that is difficult.

            • Baby

              Come sit next to me E.. We will watch the moon together and not say a word..

            • Eclipse-girl

              That sounds wonderful. I hope we are able to do that some day.

            • Baby

              Well, just close your eyes and we’ll do it right now..I’ll get the blanket..

            • scnethics

              You’ve got all kinds of strength. It takes strength to talk about things like this, and to endure what you endure.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Aww, thanks.
              It is important for those who have had or continue to mental issues get the word out so that the public has a (non threatening) face for those who deal with these issues.

            • Baby

              Excellent scn. really summed up how I feel/ believe.

          • Peter

            Spot on.

      • Peter

        Comm Course was $15 when I was in and HQS was $25. Seemed a deal at the time. 12.5 hour auditing sessions were $1250, very doable back then.

        • Eclipse-girl

          As a never in – didn’t more people move up “the fucking bridge to no where” way back then?

          • Peter

            Yes. I’ve said repeatedly, that it was very different back then and there were very few teenagers joining and no SO to speak of. Most of the horrors came much later and a large number of the original members had left. (I think I’ve read somewhere on this blog..or somewhere else..that when the Mission slaughter took place, the church lost about 30,000 or more members. We just walked out, never looked back.)

            • Eclipse-girl

              I have read about the mission slaughter.
              Bent Corydon’s book went into some detail about it. – Definitely recommend the book.

              I know it happened 1982/ 83 .
              Fatboy signed off on it assuming he was losing money – but the way I have read the stuff…

              It seems as if many, may people in that era of the missions believed in everything until they were messed with and the policies turned against them. They tried and fought it through the “scientology channels:” but still lost.
              In my small mind, it seemed as if these people were drinkers of kool aid until the system turned against THEM.

              I will admit Bent’s book got to me because he seemed to full accept the “woo” factor until he lost his mission

    • rom661

      I was on staff and in the Sea Org. I never paid anything other than my time and health.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I would rather give the thieves money.
        The other two things are way more precious.

        • rom661

          I don’t disagree.

      • Peter

        Heavy enough payment right there.

    • Annabelle

      When I first got in, it wasn’t so expensive. I got my Life Repair counseling, was treated like gold and everything was great. Somewhere along the line it got more and more expensive and from that point on, the answer to your question is that I had turned my identity over to it. I’m sure there are many labels that would apply.

    • Peter

      Well, going way back, the prices were really fairly easy to take…and long as you felt your were moving right along. Then somewhere along the line, it was announced that all prices would be going up 10% PER MONTH and that was one of the reasons I split. As well, it was obvious that auditors and staff had to be paid…and they were at that time. So if you felt your auditing was going well, you didn’t mind seeing your auditor paid. What we DID NOT KNOW at the time was just how much money was being shoveled up the lines where it “disappeared”, much like today.

      • daytoncapri

        You nailed it Peter.

    • daytoncapri

      It’s a very good question Seannie. For many of us, – it wasn’t understood as a separate religion, but more like a training program.

      The Dayton Scientology Mission was not calling it a “religion” when I joined. (LRH was still alive.)

      They called it a “Religious
      Philosophy” and EMPHASIZED that it was compatible with all other religions. At the time, John Travolta had declared himself to be both a Catholic AND a Scientologist. No faith-shaking decisions involved.

      Introductory fees were low and yet were designed to quickly train us to gain useful new skills. I thought the Comm Course was great.

      It was sort of like Dale
      Carnegie training, with some spiritual-psychological goodies mixed in.

      • Peter

        Excellent perceptions. I started in a Mission, too. Great people. Ethical, helpful, open and caring.

        • daytoncapri

          Yep. I felt that I was screwing them when I cut out. The staffers were good people. One of them sent me an ARC note a few months later. I felt like sh*t.

          • Peter

            Yeah, there were a lot of good, well meaning people. But the poison overall became very pervasive. How long ago did you split?

            • daytoncapri

              late 70s

            • Peter

              Me, too. That’s when I saw it was all going down the tubes. There were still terrific and helpful people around, but the poison was in the well and it could only get worse. Then came the Mission slaughter.

            • daytoncapri

              I left before the slaughter. Amazed when I read about it.

    • Aspsusa

      Also a never in, and almost a lurker (but a long time one, almost for as long as OC has existed), but I have a theory about this:

      From the outside – low end of the bridge if you will – scientology _has no theology_. So it doesn’t seem like you are paying to learn about scientology, and what you do pay isn’t that much for the first courses – it seems to be low enough that you could well compare it to what you’d pay for introduction to yoga or lace-knitting.
      Until you are well and thoroughly indoctrinated the things that are more expensive would be auditing and books. And textbooks can be expensive, so that can be explained away as “normal”. As for auditing, that’s learning about *you*, not learning about scientology.
      And as for courses, aren’t those also cloaked in an ego-centricism? It’s not like you are studying holy texts, you are studying techniques to learn more about *yourself* (or techniques to help you help others).

      Traditional (LOL) scientology services seems to be structured in a way that are so different to any other religion that I doubt even the idea of comparing ever occurs to any acolyte. Even the idea that one is an acolyte seems very foreign.

      So I don’t think the idea that one is “paying money to learn about a religion” ever enters into the minds of new scientologists.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    Double post days are great!
    And a new lawsuit, to boot.
    More lawsuits than members, FiveOne?

    A little reminder, in the middle of all the delight:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    They’re coming to take you away, Downstat Dave

    • carpe canem

      Reminds me… I only just learned that the name of the movie is Lair of the White Worm. I thought it was Larry the White Worm. Seemed like a pretty strange title for SF-fantasy.

      • Robert Eckert

        Put me in mind of Tera Long, the Dotted Lion (yes I know I am showing my age)

        • Missionary Kid

          What about the boy who was asked what the equator was, and he said, “It’s an imaginary lion, running loose around the world.”

  • xenuYESxenu

    as long as they are still scientologists themselves, followand apply the same hubbard hypnosis schemes and as long as they still say that these hypnotic money extortion schemes are all fine and dandy, they will most likely not succeed in court against the HQ of the scientology business racket.

  • Truthiwant

    Oh, Mr. and Mrs. Lemberger, my heart bleeds for you that The-Greatest-Person-Known-To-Mankind has been misrepresented by his very own Church.

    Good luck with your lawsuit, and carry on the good work of making fools of all your followers.

  • nottrue

    I hope Dani is ready to go up against 20 or so high powered lawyers

    • Jack99

      Get ready for that anti slapp motion

      • Robert Eckert

        Not in Tel Aviv.

        • richelieu jr

          And yet Tel Aviv is full of slappers..

          (last time I visited, anyway…)

  • ItsIBBy

    I wish I had a broader knowledge of international law. Broader than zero admittedly. I get the distinct feeling that the Israeli courts do not play, and there are far fewer loopholes in their court system than there are here

    • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

      And they may be a just a little more familiar with the arguments presented in religious disputes.

      • ItsIBBy

        no kidding! Pretty sure they know a thing or two 😀

  • BosonStark

    Dani, Dr. Hubtard is smiling at you from the implant station on Mars — may Xenu be with you.

  • carpe canem

    “The Center of Scientology Israel has responded as follows: ‘No lawsuit has yet been presented to us. If and when we receive such, our legal representatives will study it, and we will submit a response accordingly. On the surface, it looks like false claims are made, aimed at nothing but damaging our good reputation and extorting money unlawfully.‘”

    (emphasis mine)

    Well, that’s a neat trick. Is this evidence of Scientology super power? The ability to perceive the content and intent of an as-of-yet unread lawsuit? Or is that last sentence just Scientology boilerplate, a one-size-fits-all response to any and all threats of legal action against the church?

    (Oh, and if the church would like to share with me their methods of extorting money lawfully, I’d sure appreciate it.)

    • Missionary Kid

      Good catch. Co$ is obviously prepared to throw out all sorts of BS.

      • Sherbet

        New around here?

        • Missionary Kid

          I didn’t catch the contradiction of commenting on something they hadn’t seen yet. Carpe did.

          • Sherbet

            I was snarking on your “cos is obviously prepared to throw out all sorts of BS.” That IS their stock in trade. You name it; they’ll throw out all sorts of BS. Education, religion, social causes. scientology is a virtual BS machine.

            Sorry; I see my joke went over like the proverbial lead balloon.

            • Missionary Kid

              No harm, no foul. No apology necessary. Remember, I’ve been nailed often enough here because I often take snarking to seriously. The good news is that I’ve provided a lot of lulz in doing so.

            • Sherbet

              Nah, I think your sense of humor is exemplary.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, but that is one of my weaknesses. i’ve been sucked in by others here many times. At least it provides good reading.

    • stillgrace2

      Oops! Good catch! “On the surface, it looks like …”; “but we haven’t seen it yet” … Perfect!!!

      • Jgg2012

        Sometimes you just need to open your eyes.

    • rom661

      I would have to assume that their comments are based on the press release that we just read.

      • carpe canem

        I tend to disregard anything that might undermine the already-shaky bases of my attempts at humor.

  • Jgg2012

    Bert Fields is getting ready for his “you’re all a bunch of Nazis” response…oh, wait, that won’t work in Tel Aviv.

    • Missionary Kid

      I wouldn’t be surprised if they did, given the footbullets they have been shooting lately.

      • April

        More like foot cannons…or foot rockets…or bombs.

        • carpe canem

          Wait, you mean they still have feet? I figured they must have moved on to knee-capping.

    • ItsIBBy

      but it will be hilarious to watch him try and dig out of that mud pit

    • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

      It didn’t work well in Germany either, but that whole campaign was playing to the American audience.

  • Jory

    Unfortunately it seems that the Lembergers still believe in the “Tech”. Maybe some time is needed for them to wake up.
    Jory Kenneth, Israel

  • dagobarbz

    “Damaging our good reputation.” That’s almost as funny as “When people hear you are a Scientologist, you get RESPECT!”

    • carpe canem

      Gah. This reminds of one of the stand-out absurdities from everybody’s favorite Tom Cruise video. (I’ve watched it more times than I care to admit — helps keep the old temporomandibular joints nice and loose.) So at one point Tom emphatically points out to his off-screen interlocutor (assuming there is one), “Now is the time. Being a Scientologist, people are going to be coming to you, so you better know it. You better know it.” Who knows what the “it” refers to, and who cares. (There’s never any there there in Scientolology, but they’re sure good at talking about how wonderful “it” all is.) Now is the time for what, Tom? And why why would anyone consult a Scientologist about “it,” whatever “it” is?

      What’s that, Tom? “Because people respect Scientologists?”

      Oh, Tom. No.

      • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

        Can you imagine what the blooper reel for that video is like?

        • carpe canem

          Alas, if only there were one. Given how weird and awful the final cut is, anything that they felt had to be cut must have been really, really bad. Or awesome, depending on your point of view.

      • Peter

        Slighly off subject, I noted some “fan” magazine this evening showing pics of TC and Lindsay Lohan as being “on” And right next to it, a full cover head shot of Katie Holmes with a supposed exclusive “My Story” inside. I didn’t buy either. :) And m’lady just found a big story online about Cruise and a “super model” (we need John’s expert opinion on this! :) ) by the name of Miranda Kerr. Ah, that aging rascal sure knows how to get that publicity again.

      • Baby

        ” You better know it.”

        ………………..

        Oh yeah Tom I know it.. I know that you are a fuckin nut case

    • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

      The same respect (and distance) as any maniac.

    • Peter

      I suspect they *do* have a good rep over there.

      • dagobarbz

        Really? Maybe you should google them over there. Wonderful shenanigans, including trying to hire a hit man. So no, I do not think they do at all.

  • Anonymous

    This could actually be an interesting one to watch because I don’t think Scientology pretends to be a religion in Israel. If so, their ‘religious cloaking’ won’t help them here.

    • Ardent

      I can’t IMAGINE the cult pretending to be a religion in that neck of the woods! The sheer audacity of it would be staggering. Or, to put it another way: How Rude!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Time and tide wait for no man.
    In $cientology:
    Time and tithe wait for no clam.

    There once was a shooper named Obs
    Whose works were extraordinary jobs,
    Mr. Hubbard askewer
    Like brochetted manure
    And a side salad, usually, Cobs.

    The Hole is a den of rice.
    The Turd of Tilden’s writings are a den of vice-versa.
    FiveOne’s chest cavity is a den of ice.
    The $cilon kindergardens were dens of lice.

    How ironic the the Crutch of Sacramental mendacity should have a modified lie-detector as its
    central “religious” object!

    There are beautiful words in English – for example,
    gossamer, numinous, heronry, halcyon, arabesque, crenellation.
    And then you meet $cientology and its arcane vocabulary:
    Sebaceous, unindicted, bigamy, mandamus and abscond will serve as introductions.

    • ItsIBBy

      This is brilliant. I laughed especially hard at “And a side salad, usually, Cobs.”

      • i-Betty

        Me, too 😀

    • carpe canem

      If I may expand upon your “religious objects” comment:

      Those files and the secrets they carry
      Make the idea of leaving quite scary.
      Mankind will be free
      When the last meters-e
      Are consigned to a vast reliquary.

  • i-Betty

    Good luck, Dani and Tami! You have right on your side. One of scientology’s most sickening practices to my mind is the blatant use of confidential ‘priest-penitent’ (ha!) confessionals to blackmail and trash ex-members. Nobody has the right to demolish someone’s reputation, particularly out of revenge, and particularly a ‘church’. They’re all about the knife in the back. Bastards.

    • carpe canem

      Lol… “Because you know they’re all about the knife, ’bout the knife, no conscience…

      (apologies to Meghan Trainor)

      eta: Also “Because you know they’re all about the knife, ’bout the knife, those bastards….

      • ItsIBBy

        oh dang, I’m going to have that song in my head now *laughs*

        • carpe canem

          I just had the same thought. About my own head, not yours. I don’t mind — I like the song.)

          • ItsIBBy

            I’m tempted to write a COS parody song to the tune. Its been awhile since I’ve written any new bunker hymns

            • carpe canem

              Oh please please please please pleeeeeeze!

              “We’re bringing Shelley back
              Go ahead and tell that evil bastard that…”

            • Sid

              Could it be the Shelly song? http://youtu.be/JkG6SnozHuE

      • Sid

        Here’s an amazing version of it: http://youtu.be/iyTTX6Wlf1Y

        • April

          Thanks for posting this. Very enjoyable diversion on this bleary Monday afternoon.

        • carpe canem
          • Sid

            Killer xylophone.

            • carpe canem

              lol. “Attack of the…”

          • Baby

            Oh Yeah Baby.. Now YOU’RE TALKIN.. I am just not into jazz..I’ve tried..God knows I’ve tried…

            Blues yes..Jazz no.. but this is groovy ..tee hee.. and I am a Fallon nut case

        • Elar Aitch

          Awesome!

        • Captain Howdy

          You kids watch too much Glee.

          • Sid

            I’ve never seen it but I promise to tape and watch every show from now on.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I watched two years of it but then got bored.

            • Sid

              Well if there are no zombies I’ll pass.

          • beauty for ashes

            ****giggles**** don’t be such a downer howdy! c’mon sing a brittany medley with me!!!!!!

        • Sandy

          Jeez. I’ve listened to this now 3 times. Luvs it.

        • Juicer77

          2:38 :) Now that’s musicianship

        • scnethics

          Damn.

  • Sid

    Well, overall it’s good to see another lawsuit. This must be spreading Defendant Micromanagement pretty thin.

    • Missionary Kid

      Defendant Micromanagement has been added to the DM nicknames list. I’ll post it later.

  • http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/ L.Ron Hubbard

    Something to do with 12 men and the Banks.

    -Ron

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Less than 12 men, Ronnie.
      I guess you meant 11….or 2…or whatever.

  • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

    “…And they were using data from my PC folders at Flag.”

    That’s what I observed during the 1998 Lisa McPherson Memorial Protest, the insane crooks had some of their customers at the time stand on the sidewalk and tell some of the protesters all about some of the contents of people’s supposedly “inviolate” PC folders, which these filthy shitting crooks have sworn in affidavits and other court filings are “protected just like priest confessions” that some actual religions have.

    I asked one of the shitting crooks if he was aware that he was being video recorded talking about people’s supposedly secret “confessional” materials and the shitting asshole just smiled.

  • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

    “Immediately following this, they claim, the organization’s management, in Israel and the world over…”

    That part is false, though. The Scientology crime syndicate does not have business offices “the world over,” and even if it did, the libel and slander Scientology criminals committed against their ex-customers was certainly not as widespread as the plaintiffs would like to pretend.

    In fact the claim

    “They claim that they expanded the center and frequently received commendations for their achievements from the organization’s management in Israel and worldwide.”

    Is more of the typical Scientology BS advertising propaganda than actual reality.

    This looks like a good case of Judges suggesting this is a religious dispute rather than actual libel and slander, doesn’t it? Here in the United States we have had Judges rule that making religious arguments while alleging fraud is a losing argument while enumerating the blatant fraud is a winning argument.

    Should be interesting to see what the Bunker’s law-educated people think, yet does anyone else think that this will be dismissed predicated upon the false belief that Scientology is some how a religion?

    • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

      If it benefits them to say that in Israel they are not a religion, they will use that argument, of course.

      • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

        We have seen them deny that Scientology is a religion in Israel before, yeah. I hope that their lawyer they found is aware of those claims and will use the documentation since Scientology is sure to play the religion card.

        • carpe canem

          I wonder if it hurts their feelings when they aren’t invited to any Judaism – Christianity – Islam parties.

          “Come on guys! We’re a religion too! Why can’t we hang out with you?”

          “Because if there is ONE THING we can all whole-heartedly agree on, it’s that Scientology IS NOT A RELIGION. Now go away, Dave, and quit bothering us.”

          • Captain Howdy

            Here’s hoping that ISIS invites them to a party.

        • http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page RMycroft

          I guess their lawyer won’t be Gur Finkelstein this time eh?

  • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

    I think the award for the strangest appearance of a scientology news story is in College football….

    “the rumor was just started by a rogue Rebels fan who wanted to take the rival team’s coach down a few ticks”

    … in other words these athletes regard being called a scientologist an insult… no arguments there but it is still a little eye opener of how it’s perceived by a distinct demographic

    http://www.lostlettermen.com/article/debunking-the-dan-mullen-scientology-rumors-mississippi-state-football

    pic

    • Sid

      He obviously needs to up his Status.

      • carpe canem

        “I’ve upped my status, so up yours.”

        (Stolen from Big Love and probably already said about Scientology many, many times,)

    • Jimmy3

      Ole Miss fans are salty because their little brother Mississippi State has owned them lately.

      • carpe canem

        Go Giants!

        • Jimmy3

          The season is over. We’ve moved on to next year already.

          • carpe canem

            The baseball season is never over!

        • Captain Howdy

          Gomer got his ass whooped yesterday. Tonight, it’s Goober’s turn.

          • carpe canem

            Whooosh… right over my head. Huh?

            • Jimmy3

              Gomer = Peyton Manning (Broncos were blown out by the Pats yesterday)
              Goober = Eli Manning (Colts plays the NY Giants tonight)

            • carpe canem

              My football-fandom stretched all the way from Joe Montana to Steve Young… then pretty much fizzled out.

            • Peter

              Had to laugh as that was precisely the span of my football fandom, too. Absolutely loved watching Joe and Jerry Rice doing last minute magic time after time, Joe grinning when he did it. Steve was like a machine going to work on the other side. After those two, the game just didn’t hold any allure for me.

      • Missionary Kid

        I hope it continues.

  • Beetleguise

    At first I was like, whoah, 3 million shekels? Then I read how much it was in US equivalent. That’s pocket change for the church.

    • Missionary Kid

      IDK the local laws, but he could possibly take possession of their org. That would be an asset he could attach.

      • Sid

        I thought Int owned the buildings and the locals paid a monthly lease. They would have to find out who actually owns the building I guess and make sure they’re included in the suit.

        • Missionary Kid

          Compensation, I believe, doesn’t come into play until a verdict is rendered, so those people wouldn’t be a part of the suit.

          • Peter

            Israeli law “might” be different.

            • Missionary Kid

              On a whole bunch of different ways. You’re exactly right.

        • MaxSpaceman

          iirc, when they went independent, they got the bldg., not Scilontology.

          • Sid

            I think he meant the Org building, not the mission.

    • Science Doc

      Better than 3 million Pesos or 3 million Baht.

      • Observer

        Or three trillion Zimbabwean dollars.

    • Captain Howdy

      I thought shekels were a type of seafood.

      • Beetleguise

        Badum Tschhhh! :)

      • Science Doc

        If it crawls on the bottom it’s not Kosher.

        • carpe canem

          Does it make a difference whose bottom it crawls on?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            It just depends on how scaly their bottom is!

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Madoff, ironically was a bottom feeder.

  • PRenaud

    Sorry if this was posted before but Clearwater PD are in deep shit… http://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=12997

    • aegerprimo

      I just saw the article today. Fantastic! I thought I would add a couple of excerpts…

      Although Kyle’s death occurred back on Feb. 16, 2007, documentary filmmakers
      and journalists continue to dig and press on for details and truth with little
      or no cooperation from the Clearwater Police department.

      In a Skype interview this morning with researcher, Damian DeWitt, it is clear
      that the death of this young man is not going away anytime soon.

      Clearwater police investigator, Rob Shaw, has refused to answer any questions
      concerning the death and/or, what many claim was a botched investigation. German
      filmmaker, Markus Thoess, was in Clearwater recently, and submitted a list of 18
      questions to Rob Shaw with no answers. Today, another list of questions was sent
      to officer, Rob Shaw and Commander, Major David Dalton.

    • http://www.crackpots.us/ DamOTclese2

      It’s a public relations web site, anyone may publish anything they want for a fee, the Clearwater Police aren’t going to give one damn about this.

      Hate to say it but the web page is nonsense.

      • Jimmy3

        But the article does not read like nonsense. And the Clearwater PD haven’t given a damn before, so they probably won’t now. Unless enough people read articles like this and see the upcoming documentary, and they start asking questions of their own…

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I am glad to see the article. Even if only one more person learns Kyle’s story from it.

          I was fortunate enough to meet Victoria Britton a couple of times and spend a bit of quality time with her.
          I like her a heck of a lot, so consider me biased….

          Being in her presence is an overwhelming experience. She is a lovely and very intelligent woman.
          She also exudes the most physically palpable pain I have ever witnessed from someone who has had such a loss. It shows in her eyes. Even now, …years later. It is just as raw as ever.
          You can feel her need to see this through and get to the truth.
          To fight for Kyle.

          I don’t know if Kyle will ever get justice. I do know that Victoria Britton will never give up on trying to get it for him.

          • Jimmy3

            That is simultaneously depressing and inspiring.

            • Chee Chalker

              When did Rinder blow? I wonder if he was in OSA when this went down…… All that is needed for this house of cards to come down is a few more brave people to start talking

            • Jimmy3

              Nothing good can come from unfounded speculation.

            • Panopea Abrupta

              One of the best descriptions of $cientology I have ever heard, Jimmy3

            • Chee Chalker

              Exactly, which is why whistleblowers are needed…..ot, I did not know Female Dave had a drugged up kid. The kid probably was tapping into ma’s stash

            • Missionary Kid

              Because of PA’s response, I’m adding this to the list of Things Said about $cientology, “Nothing good can come from unfounded speculation, and that’s all $cientology is.”

              I’ll post it later.

          • Qbird

            She is a lioness…

            • Baby

              Tears…sigh.. beautiful

          • Baby

            Bury.. I wrote earlier that the pain in her eyes will haunt me forever. You are absolutely right.

      • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

        I wouldn’t call “David Love” nonsense at all

  • http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/ L.Ron Hubbard

    Scientology is discriminated against:

    http://www.lermanet.com/reference/Scientologysshysters.txt

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    “The Center of Scientology Israel has responded as follows: ‘No lawsuit has yet been presented to us. If and
    when we receive such, our legal representatives will study it, and we will submit a response accordingly. On the surface, it looks like false claims are made, aimed at nothing but damaging our good reputation and extorting money unlawfully.'”

    if the church was going to wait before responding, why did they respond by calling the complaint “false claims”? This is church that never disappoints, it always does the wrong thing. The church’s seemingly lack of awareness of how “off” it is, only adds to the sorry picture.

    • Jimmy3

      I read it as a statement that they would wait until their lawyers look over the suit before submitting a legal response. The line beginning with “On the surface…” is in response to what is being alleged in the media or in direct response to what the reporter was asking them.

      • Still_On_Your_Side

        They may have believed they were not providing a legal response, but their lawyers will not agree. Their response was inflammatory, and derogatory. A completely wrong response to a defamation complaint.

        • Jimmy3

          Can’t argue with that, except it’s not a legal response, it’s a PR response. They’re famously charming in PR responses.

          • Captain Howdy

            You’re right, they’re saying “we haven’t read it, but from what we’ve heard it’s..”.

        • C.M.

          Is the central point of this suit the defamation itself, or the resulting income loss apparently suffered by their life improvement center? And of course the CO$ responds like they always do, inflammatory and derogatory… nothing new there.

    • EnthralledObserver

      I don’t know it it’s truly lawful, but the CO$ has been getting away with extorting money for years via the US court system.

      • C.M.

        They are the only “religion”” with trademarks as far as my knowledge goes. Most of the extorting were based on that.

        • Robert Eckert

          The “House of Justice” (governing committee for the Baha’i) claim a trademark on the word “Baha’i” and on the eight-pointed star symbol. They have had occasional rumbles about this with breakaway Baha’i sects who are squirreling the prophecies.

  • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush
  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    Alexa update for November 3: *refresh for images*

    Tony: US rank #31,102 – down 521 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 20,692)
    scientology: US rank #50,671 – up 1,469 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 61,444)

    Difference: 19,569 – 1,990 less than yesterday. (Average difference last 3 months: 40,752)

    Clicks from India – 6,7% today.

  • Just Dee

    Just got home and still reading this story. I absolutely LOVE hearing someone new is suing scientology. I hope scientologists who sued the IRS, turn around and sue scientology. I am sure it isn’t easy finding the right lawyer, but the more people who step up the better. Start overwhelming this egotistical bastard. I am sure so many people paid up front for services & have a lot of $$ on account. And then there is that white elephant in CW. How much did it cost to build and how much money was donated again??? The math just doesn’t work. And then there is Narconon… where do you start.
    It’s gonna eventually crumble if more people step up.

  • Sandy

    .

    • Missionary Kid

      Only if you’re a fan of NFL games. Otherwise, ignore.

  • C.M.

    Being not a lawyer and as an fully woken up ex, I have a double feeling about this lawsuit. I am happy DM and OSA will have yet another lawsuit to attend to overstretching DMs attention span. But the motives for suing seems a bit weak. They were members for 32 years so would be, or reasonably should be aware, of the tactics and policies laid down by its founder of how the cult is to operate. Including sp declares and the fair gaming. They stil continue to this day to spread the venom called “scientology tech” to people in Israel. So basically this is going to be a business dispute and IMHO the cult is holding the better cards in this game. Just my humble opinion.

    • aquaclara

      “as a fully woken up ex…” What a great way to describe where you are. And worth celebrating, too. I share your concerns about the suit-as much as I relish another legal headache for MIscavige.

  • valshifter

    “that it focuses on fundraising of huge sums for wrong purposes, and that it does not build local leadership” So he gets declared for VOICING his opinion,

    • Drat

      The scam has been revealed so many times over it isn’t funny.

  • Captain Howdy
    • Axton

      Great song, great video

    • Baby

      I’ve always loved this song.. Haven’t seen the video before..Trying to figure out what *** means..

      Maps ( My Angus Please Stay) I know this ( My nephew told me last summer…ha) So let me think about it.. hmmmmmm

  • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

    late night lulz grab….

  • nottrue
    • Jimmy3

      She has a lovely accent. Like Daphne from Frasier, only more angelic. I hope she posts here on the Bunker some day.

      • Baby

        I know Jimmy.. We should set a place mat out for her on our table. I’ll grab the beer..

        Oh and one for her too.

        • Jimmy3

          Haha

    • MaxSpaceman

      Subscribe to Andrea’s Youtube channel — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs07gtymXlnHkiPm7smm5Zw

    • pronoia

      Betty is Andrea! How awesome and fun!

      • Baby

        doggy can you delete?

        • pronoia

          Hiya Baby!

    • Eivol Ekdal

      I saw their ex-military guy and you could just tell by his posture. I also noticed that the security guys did not go near him. Quiet real world confidence trumps OT powers without effort.

  • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

    I’m thinking of setting up a private blog that, to all intents and purposes, could be best explained as a collaborative series screenplay for an imagined 12 episode”HBO”type series … I posted a treatment in comments over a year ago that I had a lot of fun putting together and got a lot of great comments. I’ve been a [paid] script editor before and occasionally go back to my own ‘epic’ from time to time but nothing beats partnership writing for enjoyment and actually getting something done [‘m a lazy bastard when it comes to screenplays].

    By keeping it private there would be no troll interference and ‘members’ would obviously trust each other.

    Rather than go into details I’m just testing the water here so to speak… you can comment or you might be a lurker in which case you can email me by adding hotmailDOTcom to my disqus name.

    That is all

    • Jimmy3

      That picture is disgusting and offensive. I can almost see that guy’s ass crack.
      Also, I would try to contribute to a project like that.

      • Barbara Angel

        Smirk….giggle…..giggle

    • Elar Aitch

      Nice puppy

  • Captain Howdy

    RIP Brittany Maynard,

    • Baby

      My identical twin died of the exact same brain tumor as Brittany. Glioblastoma Stage 4.

      When she was diagnosed my older sister and brother and I went round and round about my twin’s decision to not be treated with Chemotherapy.

      My twin was ready to die that day. ..and she did not change her mind during the 4 months. The chemo would have prolonged her ( LIFE?) by approx. 2 months.

      Every time I was with her she asked me.. ” I am ready.. Damn how long do I have?” She would go to her sickenly optimistic Dr. who said.. ” Shoot, I can’t tell you how long you have, I knew a patient that lasted 5 years.”

      PUHLLLLLLLLease.. Neither of us bought this bullshit. Her headaches were excruciating.. and her Seizures debilitated her. She was in a wheel chair because the damn tumor was on her Motor Strip. She was in Physical, Emotional Pain..

      RIP Brittany and my Twin. Death With Dignity ? ( DWD) Absofuckinlutely.. I was my happiest when she was so drugged up on Morphine and was in her coma. No seizures no pain.

      OK I’ll stop. I can’t see the screen. sigh

      • Frodis73

        Sending you cyber hugs. {{{Hugs}}}

        • Baby

          Thank you doggie.. ( I have 2 friends I call doggie in the Bunker..) I hope you don’t mind.

          • Frodis73

            Not at all hon.

            • Baby

              Oh good.. I love both my doggies… xo

      • Captain Howdy

        Sorry. I watched my wife die due to a neurological condition. Living is hard, then it get’s mean.

        • Baby

          Thank you Howdy.. I am sorry for your loss also. It’s a bitch

          • Captain Howdy

            Here’s a HUG..It’s late enough, I don’t think anybody will see. ; )

            • Baby

              Oh shit.. looks around.. 1 sucker from OSA watchin..who gives a shit..
              Hugs Howdy tight..

              Thank God I have all of you guys to keep my mind busy ..So glad I am in the trenches with you Howdy.

            • Captain Howdy

              My wife died right around the time Chanology started. I tried to kill myself a couple of times, then I heard about Anon, went over to YouTube, and here i am.

            • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Nat-lificent

              “here i am”
              :)

            • DodoTheLaser

              Thank you, Captain.

            • Baby

              I am glad that you failed sweet friend.

              I just locked myself away for 4 years. I didn’t have a heartbeat..

              And Here I am.

            • Frodis73

              I saw that & I’m telling all. Hugs to you to CH. Life is a harsh bitch.

        • Sherbet

          So sorry, Howdy. I’m SO GLAD you’re still with us. You found love and caring in a very unexpected place, so hang onto it.

  • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

    … heh, heh….. was cleaning up bookmarks and realised I set up a tumblr account 3 years ago….. I was obviously drunk when I did it as a) I’ve only just found it again and b) the title of it [which I’m kind of proud of actually]

    pic

    • Baby

      How about Scientology Buggered?

      • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

        I’ve looked at my mac keychain and I have no password or account holder name for it…. can’t even remember which email I used to set it up with [I have loads]…. I’m happy to just let this one drift in the interweb goo as is

        • Baby

          hahaha.. I just thought of DM being sooooooo scared of someone Buggerin him in Prison..

    • http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk/ media_lush

      going through that site I came across this video I posted…. I really think it’s worth a look as we have a pretty young kid explaining how she was pressurised to donate, disconnect etc in such a ‘young American kid way’ that it really resonates in a way that seems more direct that the equivalent stories posted here…. judge for yourself

      http://youtu.be/kpmnU3Ti6js

      • Baby

        Oldie but goodie Lush.. This video would really connect with the younger kids.. I had forgotten about it. But yes..She’s honest and it shows.

      • sookiesookie

        I love that she was confident enough to trust her instincts at that age!

  • http://www.rediscoverscientology.com/blogs/joe-howard.html Joe Howard

    Go, Dani and Tami! We will be following it closely. Love from Sweden.

  • Baby

    For those who haven’t seen this..( Lurkers.. or newly in..) Valentine Massacre..

    http://www.scientology-cult.com/david-miscavige-valentines-day-massacre.html

    • giggler

      it gets more shocking the more one finds out, utter hell

      • Baby

        Yes it does giggler.. Absolutely Evil

  • indie8million

    Scientology says, ” On the surface, it looks like false claims are made, aimed at nothing but damaging our good reputation and extorting money unlawfully.”

    What’s that expression about the pot calling the kettle black?

    Oh yeah. Ron called it “The Criminal Mind.” Looks like he was right about that.

  • Baby

    This is sooooooooo OFF Topic..but interesting for those who are interested in Hitler.. I love documentaries..and this is very good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj9ENqq-lIg

  • Missionary Kid

    Here’s a thought for you. There is the concept of “paying it forward.” One does a good deed or something nice for someone, and, instead of asking for something in return, asks that the person who they did it for help someone else in the future. This, in effect, creates a surplus of goodwill in society.

    In $cientology, everything requires an exchange, or a person is “out ethics.” If $cientology ruled society, there would be no surplus of goodwill. Everything must be reciprocated. That will make for a cold, businesslike society where nobody does anything extra to create goodwill in society. To me, that sounds like something that Ayn Rand would admire. Grant Cardone shure does.

    • Frodis73

      Kinda like the right wing eh? Ok, I will stop. Seriously though, I agree with you and it’s frightening to think of a world ran on Hubbard tech. That is the end goal after all & thankfully it won’t happen. Can you imagine? It would be like Int Base on a grand scale.

      • Missionary Kid

        *shudder*

    • Exterrier

      I found that to be true, Mish. It was very annoying that everyone was fixated all the time on getting “exchange”. You are conditioned by policy to become like Ron more and more, til all true good will it gets put aside. There were no, zero, social gatherings or holiday celebrations or private parties that were simply that, without an agenda to sell or promote something. Everybody has a little sideline business because they need money from you desperately to pay for their chirch involvement.
      People may try to have genuine friendships for a while, but just seem to have forgotten how. Things that are “off purpose” are simply considered a self indulgent waste of time, when one should be focusing on their “eternity”, and the need to “clear the planet”.
      Scientolgy is absolutely loaded with devotees of Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged. Loaded.

      • Exterrier

        I once got disinvited to an annual Christmas party for having gotten the whole place all misty eyed and fuzzy by leading the guests in Christmas Carols for an hour. The hostess with the big house banned me after that. People actually remembered the wonderful times and camaraderie they associated with actual song and celebration. More deep level Scientologists look down on an “implant” religion like Christianity, or on anything that smacks of a sense of the sacred, or brotherhood for merely its own sake. There is a contempt for wasting time on such things. Most arrive at the “I am God, Do as thou wilt” sort of nonsense that was LRH’s true value system, as weak and pathetic as that is.

        • Missionary Kid

          LRH really didn’t care about anyone else, and DM just cares if they bring in the money.

      • Missionary Kid

        For some reason, I missed your two posts. I agree. Selfishness, an LRH attribute, and magnified by DM, is now a virtue.

        http://www.cracked.com/video_18426_ayn-rand-5Bplaceholder5D.html

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ RED X +–+RED X +–+ RED X *** Tuesday the 4th of November

    Good morning to the Early Birds and Night Owls,
    Early/provisional score : 86 for yesterday bringing our Last 4 Days to 228 and the 7 days Regional List to 547. The final and definitive score for Monday will be updated by 5am EST.

    If you have not done so yet, read the write up : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-117#post-2494321
    RedX spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    Please note that because of the time change to EST, and that we are staying put in SAfrica, I will not be posting any reminder at the end of the afternoon or early evening (EST) as it will be past midnight for me. Can one of you kind RedXer help Panopea during the afternoon and evening.

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty Panopea Abrupta https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/14942365515/in/set-72157642802079293

    • DodoTheLaser

      WWP link is not loading for me. Servers down?

      • Pierrot

        same for me, lucky we can use google doc!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Dani and Tami are known to every Mission Holder worldwide.
    I first learned about them around 1994. They are scientology veterans.
    More people will be asking questions, which is good.

  • Baby

    Titled… NEVER WAS..

    Never In.. Hmm sounds rather dismissive
    at times doesn’t it. I remember meeting an X once who when discovered
    that I was ” Never In” he immediately walked away from the
    conversation. Yep, right in mid sentence.

    Did I ever say that I was a Never Was?

    That I never was disconnected from family or friends? Uh, because I was.

    That
    I was never under mind control? Well, I guess if you don’t consider
    being in a relationship with an abusive controlling man for 30 years
    brain washing..

    That
    I was never abused, degraded and suffered from Self Esteem issues? How
    about was never alone, scared and suicidal at one time? I was
    homesick, but had no home to go to? Did I ever say that I was a Never
    Was?

    Oh I might not have ” Held the Cans” , Have I Been Blackmailed and exhorted ? Yes that too. Yes I was.

    Broke? Actually I would have had to have a lot more money in my account to be considered broke.

    Cried myself to sleep? Surely you jest.

    Cold?
    Tired? Hungry? Scared ? Afraid? Lonely ? Anxious? Depressed? Did I
    ever want to escape? Run Away..Start Over? Die? Yep

    Have I ever been Collateral Damage suffering mentally at the hands of this Cult?

    Oh.. friend. I May be a Never In, but… I have never been a NEVER WAS..

    Baby

    • Baby

      I just wanted to add.. Very Important..

      I AM NOT A VICTIM. I am a survivor.

    • Elar Aitch

      Thanks Baby

      • Baby

        Thank you Elar..

    • Barbara Angel

      Can really relate to all you said and I’m also a never in. Due to similarity’s of your journey above, two years ago I found myself living in my car for six months. Like you I’m a survivor and proud of it.
      My bad tho’ because as a conditioned ‘non-person’ I never had the guts to speak up until the last few years and abusers thrive on that, they see kindness as a weakness and a shit-load of bad things landed on my head. . Now when I see a wrong, I try to right it, before it causes too much damage to others or myself. Injustice is sickening and will never happen to me again!
      That’s why I flag my guts out to Stop the massive *Criminal Injustices* perpetrated by co$ and its enablers. The enablers are just as guilty as mustravage. The excuse “I was just doing what I was ordered to do”, doesn’t cut it.
      We need to beware of the following, written by Jon Atack, as it crosses all boundaries in life.
      Quote: “Immersed in this new science, it soon became clear to me that the dynamics of exploitative
      persuasion exist in every human society and, indeed, in every human being. We are all subject to *groupthink, to following the herd*, to grabbing ideas without proper consideration, because we all too easily accept the authority of those who spout those ideas. As L. Ron Hubbard said, all authority relationships are hypnotic”.

      IMHO: This shapes society and the way people continue to indulge in *following the herd* regardless of maturity, basic decency and good manners.

      • Baby

        Thank you Barbara for your contribution. Just keep on flaggin.. Just keep on keepin on. xo

    • Bob

      The fact that you are here and a supportive member of this blog is positive and negates any words like Never Was, Not In, Non-Scnr etc. Empathy is achieved in many ways and is much appreciated by me.

      • Baby

        Thank you Bob..

        The fact that you are here.. only reinforces the fact that I am here… Look how far you have come! Woo Hoo..

        • Bob

          So true. Band of brothers and sisters.

          • Baby

            And Bob.. The reason I wrote my initial comment was to inspire those lurking to process the fact that many of us on the Bunker hasn’t had an easy life either..

            No one trumps each other’s pain..So whether in, x, indie or never in.. Whatever we have gone through or going through..We are all human.

            I am doing so well now. I am with the love of my life now. My struggles have made me stronger.. And that is why I am a strong fighter against Scn.

            It is a privilege that I am in the Band with you.. I have always respected the fragile position that you are in. You are a brave man..Thrilled that you post!

            • Bob

              Baby, thank you. I agree misery has no boundaries. The support of the group has been therapudic for me. And we hopefully contribute with our individual growth.

            • Baby

              Awww Bob.. absolutely agree.. I know that this support group is therapeutic for you..I can tell by your writing..and coming here more often.

              You absolutely have contributed to my growth Bob..

              I just always love seeing your avi.. It just makes me smile. Like I’m keeping tabs on you..haha..

            • Bob

              You are one of the people who I feel have taken me under her wing. You and MK are like room monitors who make me want to come to class. It’s mutual when I come to Tonys blog. It’s an amazing social phenomena.

            • Baby

              hahaha Good. I’m in good company with MK..

              I may be a baby, but I am very conscience of who is here and who isn’t. YEP can’t get anything past the smokin baby. xoo

            • Bob

              This is a unique blog because of the quality of the commenters here.

            • Baby

              It is Bob.. and wow.. Tony just keeps the info flowing and all of us remain up to date..

            • Bob

              Tony, is excellent.

            • Baby

              Can’t wait to read his book!

  • me

    Few facts about Scientology in Israel:

    Foreign religion are frown upon in Israel and being in other religion than Judaism, has some disadvantages. Therefore Scientology is calling itself an “organization” rather than a religion or a church in Israel. When their front groups are caught trying to infiltrate the education system – angry parents resent the missionaries. A long time ago a Scientologist assured I should not afraid from the “religion” label as it is use solely for American tax reasons… Scientology created its religious definition for better conduct under the American law, it is not always helpful in other places.

    A government committee declared Scientology as a “dangerous cult”. It is official.

    Just a thought. Could Osama Bin Laden use the religious ticket: “I truly believe that crashing the airplane is manifesting my religious beliefs that Islam is spread by the Sword”?

    • Sherbet

      Interesting.

  • Eivol Ekdal

    O/T – Such a ‘Grand Opportunity’ but still no takers…
    http://www.clearwatersedge.com/grand-opportunity/

    • http://scicrit.wordpress.com Once_Born

      It might be an opportunity for someone with inside information about the CofS. They could buy now (while the price is low) and sell high (after the Church has collapsed, and the real world moves back into Clearwater).

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Tough one, you will have to put up with Liz and Michael next door, but you have a balcony view of the SP building.

  • Mooser

    Ah, Scientology and Zionism, now there’s a match made in heaven. Made for each other. So nue, so sue!

  • Bob

    It took a lot of hutzpah to do what Dani and Tami did. The cult particularly hates competition, specially if it’s more cost effective and doesn’t require disconnection and useless donations.
    Good for them. I hope the lawsuit provides endless bad PR for the cherch and that Dani and Tami win.
    It’s also good to see how consistent the cult reps are. Their lies are repetitive and banal.

    Lie-entology the church that keeps on taking and lying and taking and lying and taking………………

  • North End Hotel

    Just read an impassioned defense of Hubbard’s SP teachings and a defense of the idea that SPs should have no rights. Where? Over at one of Independent Scientology blogs covering the Lemberger case. Seems that Miscavie is altering Hubbard’s magnificent ethics tech.

  • Sejanus

    “damaging our good reputation and extortng money unlawfully.”

    and as everyone knows that is the $cientology game plan and no one else should be allowed too ever use it…lol
    Arrogant dillwads.

  • Deeana

    What exactly is Cof$ using to blackmail people with? Details of their sex life? Unless you are Tom Cruise or John Travolta, who cares? (And even those two, who cares?)
    On the other hand, if someone was confessing crimes during auditing, how sorry can one be for the person? On the one hand, people say that those who were confessing in auditing to molesting children should have been turned in to the police. And I agree with that. But if someone was confessing to other crimes, well, I don’t know how much sympathy they can expect.

  • Jenni

    I would like to see more missions leaving the corporate Scientology network, and I believe this will happen.