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Jon Atack on the Hypnotic History of Scientology Auditing

Hypnosis2Jon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He now has a new edition of the book out, and on Saturdays he’s helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

Jon, we recently pointed out in our reading of a first-edition copy of Dianetics that L. Ron Hubbard’s description of a “dianetic reverie” sounded an awful lot like hypnosis. We got an earful from independent Scientologists who didn’t appreciate that comparison — Hubbard himself insisted that auditing was not hypnosis.

You’ve done some research on the relationship of the two. What can you tell us?

JON: It is strange that Scientologists know little or nothing about hypnosis, as their founder was passionate about the subject. Let me point out a significant anomaly found in the practices of the cult, which concerns the direct use of hypnosis.

Around 1979, Book One auditing — based on Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health — was reintroduced, and has stayed in place, ever since. But what if 1950-style Dianetic auditing is actually hypnotic? When I researched my favorite paper, “Never Believe a Hypnotist,” it became apparent that Hubbard had significant expertise (even though he counseled us never to believe a hypnotist).

Digging through the contradictions, I found many gems, which point to the true nature of Dianetics and Scientology. In Science of Survival, Hubbard said, “a pre-clear after he closes his eyes will begin to flutter his eyelids. This a symptom of the very lightest level of hypnotic trance.”[1] In a lecture, he added, “A simple test is to watch the person’s eyeballs. You will find as he lies there that the eyeballs under the closed eyelids will hunt back and forth. You can see the bump of them on the eyelids, and they will be wandering … the hunting indicates a hypnotic state.”[2] In a later lecture, he said, “The eye moving underneath the eyelid is the indication of when a person is lightly or deeply tranced. That is the second stage of which the fluttering eyelid is the first … The preclear’s eyes will roll a little bit under the lids and when he returns, particularly, the eyelashes will flutter, which tells you immediately that he has become more suggestible than he ordinarily would be.”[3] Yet later, he added an injunction, “Sometimes you will notice a tremble on the eyelids … This is a very early stage of hypnosis. Be careful of such a patient.”[4]

THE BUNKER: So you’re saying that Hubbard often warned his followers that they should watch out for signs of hypnosis. As he liked to say, hypnosis puts someone to sleep, but auditing wakes them up.

JON: Exactly. But, as we see, auditing is a form of hypnosis, which tends to overlay new suggestions over old, rather than waking anyone up.

However, the current use of the Hubbard Dianetics Auditor Course (HDAC) is in total contradiction to these warnings. By returning to the 1950 method, Scientology has returned to direct trance induction. The HDAC gives, “When the preclear’s eyes close and you notice his eyelids flicker, finish counting…”.[5]

There are other signs of trance, “If the person begins to answer you literally … that means your preclear is now a hypnotic subject and you are running him in hypnosis.”[6] Although nothing that Hubbard issued may ever be withdrawn, these prohibitions form no part of any auditor training course known to me. Hubbard also admitted that “Returning back down the track slightly increases the suggestibility of any person.”[7]

THE BUNKER: Why do you think there was this reversion to an older process?

JON: As old-timer Alphia Hart joked, Hubbard should have put a date on every new “this is it!” He came up with something once or twice a year — just in case anyone had noticed that none of the Clears were clear, nor any of the OTs capable of the slightest supernatural feat. As Hubbard’s output slowed down — we know that he was suffering from dementia towards the end — there were various attempts to capitalize on his earlier work. Elaborate new rundowns appeared, and this was one of them. It’s all bound up in the notion that nothing he wrote can be amended (see the Policy Letter Safeguarding Technology, for details. This also answers your earlier question as to whether OT III might be a “metaphor.” No it isn’t.)

It is immensely curious that Scientologists are unaware of the effects of hypnotic trance, because Hubbard advised that the auditor “must be prepared to use hypnotism, he must know how it works, what he should do to make it function, how to regress a person in hypnotism and so on, which is definitely very different from Dianetics in that one produces a trance.”[8]

Hubbard recommended the book Hypnotism Comes of Age, where “reverie” is defined as a “dreamlike state between normal consciousness and hypnosis.”[9] Reverie was defined by Hubbard as “a light state of concentration not to be confused with hypnosis. In reverie the person is fully aware of what is taking place.”[10] The use of the words “light state” seems to be a Freudian slip. It is certainly a contradiction in terms. After Dianetics: MSMH was published in 1950, Hubbard withdrew the system of counting the preclear into reverie, “Sometimes people go into a hypnotic trance by accident with this count system … so at the Foundation we no longer use it.”[11] Unfortunately, this advice is ignored in the current Hubbard Dianetics Auditor Course, auditing reverts entirely to D:MSMH, so by Hubbard’s own statement, the Church of Scientology is using a hypnotic induction as standard procedure. But then, as Hubbard explained, “counting sometimes produces a light hypnosis back of the reverie which is sometimes helpful on a case.”[12] Or, worse yet, “Recognize the depth these trances achieve, just on no provocation. Tell a man to close his eyes, bong! he goes into an amnesia trance; or sometimes using the old counting technique and it becomes more frequent: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven – bong!”[13] At worst, “Some people, when told to close their eyes, immediately go into hypnotic trance.”[14]

As ever, Hubbard was quick to contradict himself (the basic method of controlling people, as explained in the False Data Stripping bulletin): “We never give positive suggestions”[15]; but, in a lecture only a few weeks later, “you are putting in positive suggestion whether you want to or not, no matter how careful you are.”[16] Confused? Just do exactly what Ron says and you will be completely self-determined…

THE BUNKER: Well, no doubt we’ll hear from the indies again on this point. In the meantime, you are feeling very sleepy…

[1] Science of Survival II, p.227
[2] Research & Discovery vol. 1, p.336
[3] R&D 3, p.94
[4] R&D 4, p.38
[5] HDAC p.54, Hubard Dianetic Seminar p.42
[6] R&D 3, p.94; see also R&D 1, p.336
[7] SOS II, p.228
[8] R&D 1, p.307
[9] R&D2, p.12. Definition, Wolfe and Rosenthal, p.124, 1949.
[10] Evolution of a Science, footnote, p.98
[11] R&D 3, p.15; see also R&D 4, p.37; DMSMH, p.201
[12] R&D 1, p.182
[13] R&D 3, p.94
[14] R&D 3, p.94
[15] R&D1, p.48
[16] R&D1, p.336

 
——————–

Psychs in San Francisco

The American Psychiatric Association begins its annual meeting today at the Moscone Convention Center in San Francisco. We could swear we’d seen a call to action sent to Scientologists that encouraged them to show up and protest, but now we can’t locate it.

So we really don’t know if there will be much of a presence today from the Citizens Commission on Human Rights — Scientology’s wacky anti-psychs front group.

But if you’re in San Francisco and happen to spot some fun protester action, please tell us about it!

UPDATE: Thank you to numerous people who heard our call for help. Here’s the flier we were thinking of…

CCHRFlier

 
We’ve heard from someone at the scene that a few Anons will be on hand and may send us some pictures later.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on May 18, 2013 at 07:00

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If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

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  • LongNeckGoose

    I really enjoy this series of conversations. When you get to the end of the book, please make these available on-line in one easy-to-find place.

  • piper

    Trance induction and sub-liminal command is laden through-out the early introduction to the newcomer. TR-0 creates a meditative alpha state which soon turns reactive thought. It it likely that “wins” shared at the end of class and applauding a Ron Hubbard photo could be the start of a “leap of faith” for a newcomer, soon to be unquestioning robot. The lecture movie wwas meant to have suggestive commands also

    • Missionary Kid

      Even if a newbie doesn’t believe, they’re taught to “fake it until you make it.” The group dynamic often carries them along until their emotions and thoughts are molded into the groupthink that pervades Co$.

      • Captain Howdy

        “Fake it until you make it” ..Hey, I’ve heard that somewhere before..oh yeah, and I didn’t join that “cult’ either.

        • yeah ..i tried that ” fake it til you make it ” in my marriage . Did not work , split last week

          • Captain Howdy

            Sorry Kim, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Ditto!

          • ParticleMom

            I hope it was a huge relief, Kim. But I’m sorry you have to go through that.

            • thanks guys ..i really appreciate it .

            • John P.

              Kim, this moment is the low point, whether you initiated things or not. It gets better, particularly through the support of friends and family. And ultimately, if you take care of yourself and open yourself up to going in directions you had only dreamed of when you were married, things can get really, really good. I married my college sweetheart, back before I became a Global Capitalist. I was young and stupid and picked somebody who wasn’t really a fit for me. I endured many years of misery, partly due to my own fears and partly for the sake of the children. After the marriage ended, I felt alone and helpless (despite yachts, jets, waterfront estates, five star restaurants and lots of supermodels). But it took far less time than I expected for a great new life to start, one that is way better than what I left behind. I know what’s important now and I have a lot more wisdom than before I went through it. And, of course, just when I least expected it, Supermodel #1 came into my life. That has been the best thing of all.

            • can i come stay at your place ??LOL 😉 …thank you . You guys are really great ~ i mean it

            • aquaclara

              We’re all here for you. It will get better. You might be able to tell that a few of us here have walked that line, experienced the bad bits and then emerged on the other side in good (even great) shape. Tap us when you need to. Really. Here or on the Rodeo.
              Life is good.
              And there is generally someone around here all the time! (Calling third shift!).

            • i wish i could hug you for that .. ( all of you actually ) Person to person ..i love you for saying that …thank you

            • aquaclara

              You’re welcome. It will get better. *hugs*. Now it’s Sunday, and so you can have your day to enjoy as you wish!

          • aquaclara

            So sorry, Kim. Tough to slog through all that. Hope you’re ok, and hanging in there.

          • Sherbet

            Sorry to hear it, Kim.

            • going to crossfit every day and watching the beautiful men with their shirts off helps ….sometimes just the simple things make all the difference. Up next ..transitional man 😉

            • Sherbet

              I guess you haven’t sworn off men, then.

            • no ..just the one. Not ready to give up sex just yet …i am still kinda hot LOL

            • Sherbet

              🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            That often doesn’t work in the long run, and that’s why so many $cions blow – and marriages end.

            The problem with faking it is that there’s dishonesty. Emotional dishonesty is key to $ciontology.

            I say that trying to suppress emotions is like stepping on the corner of an air mattress. You can push them down, but they’ll pop up somewhere else.

          • I feel for you Kim. I’m not unfamiliar with the swirling emotions in such a situation.

            But the future is uncharted and may bring unexpected joys when least expected.

            The past can’t be changed but its significance may be ameliorated by the future.

            Andrew

            • my favorite kiwi 😉 …unexpected joys …i like that

          • Sandy

            Kim, so sorry. Join the club. I was young, so made many mistakes after. But, sounds like you are wiser than I was..things eventually turned out fine for me. Hope the same for you. ps. if you make some mistakes in the interim, forgive yourself…..

          • stillgrace

            That’s one of the hardest decisions to make, Kim. It may be difficult to adjust from time to time, but my money’s on you!! I know you are a good mother; I can tell from your posts. Please accept my best wishes for you in the coming days.

            • thank you for the good mommie nod …i will take your good wishes anytime 😉 thank you !

          • FLUNK_101

            Best wishes to you Kim. You are an awesome individual, and I always enjoy your comments.
            Peace to
            You.

          • sister wendy

            ooo….sorry Kim….hope better times are ahead. Break-ups are hard, even when they’re good. love to you….

  • jensting

    What I always wonder when harangued by victims of the mind-fuck perpetrated by the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology is whether they have the least interest in distinguishing between their “wins” and self-hypnosis. “Exteriorization” is so easy to verify, yet no-one has (or they’re so shy that they really do not want the one meeeeelion dolars that James Randi has sitting there waiting for them…) – the list goes on.
    While I realise tha their minds have been perverted and any “normal” thought processes they might have used habitually before becoming clams have become defunct because of the “thought stopping” powers of the mind-fuck, I still have limited patience for being told I’m such an inferior boob that they cannot be bothered to do a simple demonstration.
    So, SHOW ME A MOTHER-FUCKING CLEAR, or be prepared for me to not give me too much of my time to be impressed by your sooper-dooper powerz.

    • Missionary Kid

      Does anyone know what happened to the first person that Hubbard declared “clear” in L.A.? As I remember the story, when she was revealed to the public and press and they asked her questions, she eventually fled from the stage in tears.

      • monkeyknickers

        I think her name was Sonja Bianca, which turned out to be a pseudonym ? I vaguely remember learning this during the period when I first started reading about the cult. I’d love to know what happened to her. It seems to me that she would be an automatic “go to” for interviews . . . .

        • Missionary Kid

          The way that Hubtard worked, if someone was not used successfully, he’d drop them and move on. People were always disposable to him if they didn’t suit his requirements.

          • monkeyknickers

            It is INCREDIBLE to me that he would even undertake such a public appraisal of his “theory”.

            I mean . . . damn – he HAD to know when he walked out onto that stage, in front of 6000 people, that it wasn’t going to go very well. I just can’t figure out why he – of all people – would put himself in a position where he would be fairly judged for his skills. Full well knowing is was all horseshit.

            Baffled. I am a baffled monkey.

            • Missionary Kid

              Realize that the Hub always had a lot of hubris. The person he would first sell his bullshit to was himself. Since he didn’t brook criticism, anyone who suggested that it might not be a good idea would be dismissed.

              That was true from the beginning. Why do you think he didn’t like wogs or, especially, the press? They would ask inconvenient questions. He always wanted unquestioning followers, and that’s what there is in Co$.

              If liars fully considered the consequences of their lies, they wouldn’t.

            • Observer

              Hahaha! L. Ron Hubbard put the hub in hubris!

            • Captain Howdy
            • sugarplumfairy

              Because he was a narcissist.. sometimes they believe their own hype..

            • Missionary Kid

              Bingo.

            • Captain Howdy

              Not only was there the Bianca boondoggle, Hubbard agreed to scientific testing of Dianetics at N.Y.U twice in the 1950’s. Guess what the results were?

              Here’s one of the research papers.

              http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/

            • Also see Jeff Jacobsen’s “Science and Dianetics” article, about a UCLA experiment on Dianetics: http://www.spaink.net/cos/essays/jacobsen_science.html

            • Captain Howdy

              Thanks, I knew there was a study done on the West Coast but I couldn’t find it in my bookmark’s or internet search.

            • Sidney18511

              I believe that he had “insiders” in the audience that asked pre-discussed questions. It was only after the real audience started asking questions was the scam exposed.
              But later on the hubster explained the goofing floof as the result of him calling Sonija out on the stage using wording like “Sonija please come out here NOW” which screwed her up and brought her into “present time”. A con is a con is a con.

            • monkeyknickers

              AHHHHHHH. That makes sense. And also totally explains why he avoided similar events thereafter.

              Hubbard should have used his awesome UltraThetan skills at the Shrine to postulate those inquisitive audience members into spontaneous combustion.

            • Observer

              My guess was that giant overinflated ego of his wouldn’t let him consider the possibility of failure. He seemed to believe everyone he met would immediately fall under his control. An absolutley astonishing number of people did, but not everyone.

            • Lady Squash

              I think he self-hypnotized himself to believe he was who he said he was and that his theories worked.

          • sharon brown

            Well, that’s 1 thing Tiny fists learned well from LRH, people are like tissues, use ’em and throw them in the Hole !

            • Missionary Kid

              DM, though, is much more of a sadist.

            • richelieu jr

              Yeah, Hubbard would basically let them go get on with their lives, after a fashion… Davey disappears them… Big difference there…

        • Observer

          Yep. “Sonia Bianca” turned out to be Ann Singer, and she seems to have disappeared. Hopefully of her own volition and not because she had exposed Hubbard for the fool he was.

          • disqus_DyKswkJSY3

            The name ‘Ann Singer’ was also phony. Are there any photographs of her? I had a family member very close to the inner circle at the time. Just curious…

            • Observer

              I don’t know. I’ve never seen one.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Yay!!! What jensting said!!!

      • Missionary Kid

        Here’s Mark Bunker’s video of Randi talking about the Hub.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj-w09kpQcY

        • sugarplumfairy

          Omg! That was GREAT!! I am now a HUGE Randi fan!! Thank you, Kid!!

          • Missionary Kid

            I think it was telling when Randi said that none of the science fiction writers liked Hubtard.

            • sugarplumfairy

              “Nooobody liked him.. He was evil.. Willfully evil..” or something like that.. I lovvvvve Randi..

          • Captain Howdy

            If it wasn’t for me discovering James Randi in the early 70’s when I was in the throes of my teen occult studies lawd knows how I would have turned out..wait a minute..nevermind.

            • Sidney18511

              The same thing with me captain. If you search there are many videos of him debunking the cons right to their face. He got Uri Geller good and exposed him for the bullshite artist that he was.

            • me too ….i am a little bummed that unicorns do not exist but i loved Randi when i was younger. I loved watching ” grown ups” get called out .

            • FistOfXenu

              What? No unicorns? Are you sure? Then what’ve we been eating every Saturday lunch time?

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. You turned out just right..

            • Captain Howdy

              Yeah, it wasn’t wasn’t Randi’s fault…it was William Burrough’s and Lou Reed’s fault!..yeah!, that’s the ticket!

            • sugarplumfairy

              as you wish..

            • Captain Howdy

              Just cleaning up my trash.

            • Missionary Kid

              Unfortunately, the televangelist that he exposed on the Tonight show is back at ti on late night cable. He doesn’t do the same act, so obviously, he’s learned a few things.

            • Spackle Motion

              Uri Geller is now the President of The Spoon Council:

              http://www.thespooncouncil.org.uk/

            • Missionary Kid

              Great joke.

            • Sherbet

              “It’s the Amazing Howdi!”

        • BosonStark

          Listening to that exchange between Randi and a scientologist reminded me that there is an intermediate pathway between jumping into Dianetics/Scientology, trying it for yourself to see if it works for you, and not jumping through that window and just waiting for proof or scientific validation.

          The intermediate pathway to understanding can be found in the testimonies and writings of some ex-members, and my choice for the ex-member who did this best is Alonzo.

          So, this is for all wogs, who really wonder about the thrills, transformation, and planet-clearing zeal that clams go through — what’s that really about — read the older posts on Alonzo’s Scientology blog (just Google it), and you’ll understand what we’re up against in being critical of Scientology or even abuses committed by Scientologists in the name of Scientology.

          Alonzo’s writing style is spare but stylish, with humor, and he goes into many areas where few ex-members go. Again, this is only for people who want to understand how Scientologists think and feel, and what it does for them.

          There’s a little touch of Kafka when Alonzo gets to the LA (ASHO) for more advanced training, but the best parts are before that.

          • richelieu jr

            But.. Is it true that @Alonzo is really the offspring of Alan Alda and the Great Gonzo?

            Because, i’m open minded and all, but there are limits, y’know?

            • BosonStark

              Would you believe I spelled his name wrong? It’s “Alanzo.” I corrected it now.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Hubbard was evil.
          Yep!

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          We in RTC are appalled by the way wog law forces good and decent religious people to accept deviant 1.1 homosexual atheists like James Randi, this while failing to protect its precious religious minorities such as Scientology.

          It is also criminal that the world’s only sane religion cannot open a new church without being attacked by every Psych for a thousand miles around,

          http://www.mikerindersblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/BunkerView-e1368305739530.jpg

        • richelieu jr

          I waited on line at a film festival with Randi for several hours one summer years ago, and it was one of the greatest times of my life. I regret that I knew nothing of Scientology at the time, so the subject never came up though plenty of other scams and charlatans certainly did… Check out hs writings as well, those of you who are interested…

          I also used to hang out with Forrey Ackerman from time to time and only recently found out eh was Hubbard’s agent for chrissakes! The questions I could have asked! (Still, for film buff like me, it was paradise at his formica table!)

          • Missionary Kid

            Boy, are you a Lucky Person!

    • enoughofthissh…

      Right on jensting. I am with you 100%

  • Henk de Vries

    I’ve always found the connection between auditing and hypnosis fascinating. I’d love to see an academic study about it, which is actually published in a peer reviewed academic title. The Anderson report is not peer reviewed (or is it?) and I noticed Jon’s article is unpublished as well. Does anyone know whether Jon ever tried to get his article published?

    • jensting

      Well, a researcher – Peter Naish – is referenced at the bottom of http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2013/04/settlement-rejected-in-irish-lawsuit.html . He was giving his expert evidence the same day settlement talks got going in a lawsuit brought by a former victim of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology.

      • Henk de Vries

        Thanks, good to know there are more than a few expert opinions that agree on this. A peer reviewed paper would still be nice though ..

  • FLUNK_101

    Hypnotism?
    Yes, Hubbard most certainly wanted to control people’s minds. And Hubbard experimented with hypnotism. But can the cult phenomenon be explained with that one word?
    First of all, Atack did not define what he meant by hypnosis. A dreamlike state between normal consciousness and dreaming? Does that include thinking about delicious food, the last time you got laid, or composing a piece of music?
    I’ve never had “Book One Auditing,” but I have experienced being audited. I don’t remember anything that I would really characterize as being hypnotized … I’ve also spoken at with a psychiatrist, who said she didn’t think I was the kind of person who could easily be hypnotized.
    It’s an interesting subject. I believe there are trance-like states between normal wakefulness and dreaming. Personally, I would associate those states more with creativity than with someone trying to control my mind, though there’s no doubt Hubbard tried to control people’s minds!
    Tony, you brag about pissing off the indies. But understanding the mind is only possible by understanding cognitive science, and ignorance is nothing to brag about.
    I think I can see where you ‘re going with this. Hypnotism is an easy way to explain why Scientologists believe such wacky beliefs! But hypnotism doesn’t explain that. If it does, then we are all hypnotized to some degree.
    It was once thought that magical thinking was was a detour from normal, rational thought, but we now know it affects the way we all think in subtle ways that were not previously understood.
    The subject of belief is a deeply fascinating one, for anyone intelligent enough to attempt to understand it. I love science, and I love goofing on Hubbard and his bullshit. But, let’s not confuse scientific inquiry with making fun of Scientology!

    • Henk de Vries

      Flunk, you should be aware that mind control isn’t achived thought employing a single thought control technique. It involves using a whole spectrum of destabilizing techniques, including ‘double speak’, group pressure and information control. Hubbard appears to use hypnotism as one of these techniques. But like I said in another comment, I would like for the link to be better established in academic literature.

      • Sidney18511

        I would image when they tell the group their “wins” and hear the applause from their fellow clamsters it sucks them deeper into the game.

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup, he knew how to use the group dynamic to get people to go along. You’ll see the same thing in revival meetings where more and more people succumb to the call to be saved.

        • FLUNK_101

          I was s Scientologist once. I hated telling my “wins ” to the group, and I abhorred the applause. The wins I had in Scientology were real, but I saw them for what they were: personal and subjective.

          • Sidney18511

            Flunk…couldn’t you refuse to expose your wins to the group by saying it was too personal to discuss? Also did you really tell all or did you make some general shite up?

            • villagedianne

              Possibly Flunk was not allowed to go to the next level without tellling the wins. Also I would imagine there was a great deal of peer pressure.

          • jensting

            Interesting. Vance Woodward went quite far down this road, simply picking up on Hubbard saying that imagined things were no more or less real than “reality” and rationalised everything as subjective. He didn’t use this insight to leave the mind-fuck behind, but that’s a different story…

      • Missionary Kid

        Indeed, Hubtard cast about and stole ideas and methods not only to suck people in, but to get them under his thumb. His approach can well be called multidisciplinary in a very negative way.

        I think it’s interesting to see the differences between his original theories and his later ones. He was evolving the con.

        • Henk de Vries

          In my opinion, Hubbard was the first Cognitive Behavioral Therapist. His approach of combining cognitive and behavioral training in order to brainwash people into submission was ‘re-discovered’ from the 70s onward by mainstream psychiatrists in order to address social anxieties and depression. It’s an idea I’ve thrown around a few times before, without much approval, so I may well be talking nonsense 🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            I think you have a good point because the Hub was, if nothing else, a master of manipulation and used any and all tools to further his goals. Those tools had been around for a long time by hucksters and con men, who he copied,.

            I wouldn’t say that he was the first CBT. I believe the concept was around much before him, and the movement in the 70s was, IMO, simply a re-emphasis and relabeling by psychologists.

            • Henk de Vries

              Thanks for that perspective!

          • Ze Moo

            Hubbtard was by no means the first to ‘brainwash’ anyone. Cults have been doing it since time began. Lroon just merged a lot of separate psychological research into his con. Then he took 20 years to morph it into the totalitarian, brain numbing scam that it is today. In 20 years he built a nice coercive universe for his minions. Just be glad you weren’t born into it or you walked into the clamfactory while you in a suggestible state. It isn’t easy to break such chains.

            • Henk de Vries

              Lol, yes, getting trapped can be so easy. I remember reading a fluff piece on the cult, back in the late ’80s, early ’90 when they were having a fit with OG Karin Spaink. I wasn’t aware of the controversy and thought that a religion with a scientific basis was very intruiging. When I mentioned to my mom I was interested, she went into a panicky damage control mode. That definitely helped a swift disposal of the idea of joining….

      • Mind control ? that seems a bit of a stretch. We are not talking about aqua man . He was a master con man …who learned that getting people to con themselves is more than half the battle …then he died wallowing in his own stench . There was a poster here not too long ago …who used to be “in” . She was shocked to find out that she could read things on the internet about LRH or whatever …and NOT get pneumonia . LRH has been dead for a long time …and in 2013 …a person had convinced THEMSELVES that the internet could give you a respiratory infection . Now THAT is something i would like to see in academic literature .

        • Missionary Kid

          I think you’re defining mind control as something absolute. The lady who didn’t get pneumonia had a part of her mind controlled. Love, hate, and other drugs can do the same thing. Mind control doesn’t mean that a person is a zombie, just that a set of their beliefs are controlled by another.

          • Mind control IS absolute isn’t it ? how can your mind be controlled by someone that you never met ? This is where i get confused …but then again …i have been confused ever since i started reading this blog. Too early to make this a drinking game ? Every time i think “WTF” everyone takes a shot. We will be wasted in 15 min’s 😉

            • Missionary Kid

              No. Portions of the mind, or thought processes are controlled. Otherwise, how could any $cion even drive, let alone hold a job?

            • portions of the mind can be controlled but not others? what “portions” would those be and where are they located ? what words can control what portion ? Sorry …not buying it . I would learn that technique so i could control the portion of my daughters brain that would make her clean her room without me having to ask her.

              It becomes a lot easier to control someone who says ” here ..control me because i do not believe i can walk across the street without your guidance”

              Maybe a bit of hypnotic trance …suggestions , and other wise guy cold reading stuff but he crossed the biggest hurdle as soon as he got the person to con themselves.

            • Missionary Kid

              To start with, you’ve got a very mechanistic view of the mind. That’s
              the same mistake LRH made. The term “mind” and the term “thought” are
              abstracts. There is no 1:1 ratio of exterior stimulus and reaction by
              the mind or thought. The Hub said crap like a word or an action could
              elicit a particular response. Humans are far more complex than that.

              A thought creates no energy, because it is an abstract, but when neurons
              are fired off when we think, there is electrical activity that is
              produced. There are areas of the brain (a concrete, not abstract item) that are
              stimulated when certain types of thoughts are engaged in, but even those
              are vague because how the brain operates depends on biochemistry,
              heredity, how something is learned, experience, how it is perceived,
              beliefs, and even damage that the brain has experienced.

              The brain, when it is damaged, often shifts functions away from the
              damaged one and into new ones because it is flexible and a living
              organism.

              Mind control is the ability of one person or group or idea to control a
              person. It can be said that even a person who believes in Christianity
              is under the mind control of the religion when they pray each night, or
              attend church. That is, of course, a very loose definition. To say the
              church can be said to control their mind and actions is a stretch, but
              it is still valid.

              There is no specific area of your daughter’s mind that you can control
              to get her to clean her room. You can, however, make it worth her while
              to do it by penalties and/or rewards. The key is to find the
              particular stimulus you can apply to get her to bend to your will.

              The problem is that our children know our foibles and quickly learn what
              they can get away with, as well as how to manipulate us. For instance,
              she can make it such a PITA for you to push her to clean up that you
              become frustrated and either give up or it becomes painful for you to
              even try to get her to do what you want. In essence, her manipulation
              of you is her mind control of you.

              Kids have much more time and energy than parents do. Pick your battles.

            • careful …your “ology” is showing .

            • Missionary Kid

              Hey, I could have said Muslim just as well.

            • nah – only an ex “ologist” would think to offer advice on child rearing and miss the sarcasm in the original post in the first place 😉

            • Missionary Kid

              You’re talking to the king of unsolicited advice. I was a single parent for 4 1/2 years.

              I hate the whole Co$ attitude towards children. They are not short adults. They rob kids of the joys of childhood, and they have the parents complicit in it. That’s mind control.

            • Captain Howdy

              I’m still on the fence about the whole “brainwashing” thing myself. Did you know that the concept of brainwashing was first introduced to the world by a American journalist covering the Korean War? Come to find out this “journalist” was working for the CIA and they had come up with this notion of “brainwashing” in an attempt to explain away all of the “confessions’ American POW’s were making.

              If you look at “Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform”, CofS scores a 100%, but on the other hand Lifton said himself he didn’t mean it to apply to religious “cults”. Who’s brainwashing the indies now that they’re away from the brainwashing center? No doubt LRH was trying to control people, I just think it’s not very effective on most folks.

            • Missionary Kid

              I wouldn’t discount the term brainwashing just because the person who came up with it worked for the CIA.

              I find it a handy, if imprecise, term to use.

              I haven’t read him, butI think Lofton was just covering his ass.

            • Captain Howdy

              Here’s “Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform”

              http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm

            • Missionary Kid

              When I said Lofton was covering his ass, I meant in regards to religion.
              Thanks for the reference.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, I copied it & saved it.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              It is very imprecise. The term indicates erasure as opposed to suspension.
              Some people ( like myself) tend to hang on the most literal definition of a word or phrase. Others look at things more conceptually linguistically.
              This breeds misunderstanding by misinterpretation.
              I cannot tell you how many conversations I have had or witnessed where two or more people were arguing the same point, but doing it with such variant approaches that it seemed as if they were diametrically opposed.

            • Missionary Kid

              ASSUME, right? When we assume that we both are talking about the same thing, it often leads to misunderstanding.

              Word clearing has the advantage of $cions understanding each other, but it also isolates them linguistically from the rest of the world.

            • jensting

              Let’s call it “undue influence” instead, then. Or Mind-Fuck (which is appropriate since what’s done to the victims is obscene – IMO). In Italy the court came up with a particularly cololrful description – something along the lines of spiritual blackmail.

              I, for one, think a distinct label is needed to assert that we’re talking about manipulation which leads the victims to their destruction. In France, the various coercion tactics had their part in the basic operation of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology being convicted for organised criminal fraud. It wasn’t the esoteric stuff. It wasn’t the IAS (although Bob knows that’s worthy of a slap across the fingers). It wasn’t the medical dangers of the laughably stupid unlicensed medicine. It was the basic untruths and manipulations leading to victims overextending themselves buying items, be they services or overpriced e-meters and books, that serve no practical purpose at prices which have no link to their utility. Basically, the undue influence (or mind-fuck) is what convinces otherwise normal people to buy this useless overpriced dangerous crap, and I dont care what label is put on it as long as the organisation is convicted of organised criminal fraud.

              Anyone who’s wondering what I’m on about, look up the case of Raul Lopez. http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/lopez.htm . This is the norm, not the exception. What is exceptional here is that they got caught.

              I think of these criminal convictions (and of the Internet) as being to the Co$ what the warning labels on cigarette packets are to Big Tobacco. A reminder that there are limits to what is allowed (once the intent is firmly established as being entirely malicious).

            • Captain Howdy

              Oh, I absolutely know that the church of scientology is a criminal conspiracy and should have been shutdown in the U.S and elsewhere long ago. And I do understand how people get trapped inside CofS and other cults. Circumstance can definitely force people to accept “new and better realities” in order to survive, and I do believe you can indoctrinate people (especially the young) given the time and opportunity.

            • jensting

              Young indeed – prepubscent children are preferred for the damnation navy.

            • villagedianne

              Your mind can be controlled, or influenced, by techniques attributed to someone you never met.

            • Missionary Kid

              Advertising is a prime example of how primal urges are used to sell useless shit.
              Edit: Note I didn’t say all advertising.

        • Henk de Vries

          Hey Kim, it’s a difficult area and ‘brainwashing’ is a difficult word. In French law it is termed ‘mental destabilization’, but I’ve also seen the term ‘destructive control techniques’ being used. Personally, I believe that the Truman Show provides the best analogue to what quote-unquote brainwashing constitutes. Is is a process in which the entire world view of a person gets replaced by a new world view doctored up by the cult leader. As in the Truman Show, the person locked inside it has no clue that this new world is fake. Nevertheless, within that fake new world, the brainwashee operates at his or her own free will, without realizing that it leads to negative or even harmful behavior.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            The term “Brainwashing” is a poor description of the phenomena.
            I like the French version you speak of. It is more closely aligned with what is really happening.

        • Ian

          I don’t buy ‘mind control’ either.

          It is just influence. Some people are more easily influenced. All of us trade some degree of influence for other things.

          Religions build an initial bank of influence (often bought with emotional affirmation, the possibility of a tantalizing benefit, or just social conformity – things we all naturally trade influence for, if we believe they are genuine). They use that influence to have the person begin to adopt beliefs and stories that will continue to increase their influence. Influence will be used to isolate a person from other influences, to increase their commitment to the religion’s stories. Family and friend influences will be disapproved of, unless those people are ‘in’, and therefore reinforcing the religion’s influence. Influence will be used to tell stories of why the person shouldn’t engage their critical faculties.

          This takes time. Each step is intended to build more. At the end of it, the person has replaced normal social and cultural influences with a stream of story and direction controlled by the religious organization.

          They could be called ‘brainwashed’, but it is important not to think of it as magic.

          We could all follow the same pattern, I suspect. Though those of us who have been burned, or who are primed to look for it, will be more likely to reject the early stages of influence building.

          This is the same with many religions. How many religious people of many faiths believe nonsense, because they’ve been gradually acclimated to it, and fed it through authority figures?

          • Fear of death and pain ….that pretty much sums up religion . Religion is just organized wish thinking ( in my opinion ) Religion gives one the construct that an acception will be made in the case of the most faithful .

            Guess what peeps …you are going to die and the universe is not going to give a crap . Get over it. It’s liberating

          • jensting

            Yes, it’s influence. It becomes undue influence – aka brainwashing or mind-fucking – when that influence is used to do evil. Check out the case of Raul Lopez http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/lopez.htm to see what I mean.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oh, EVERYONE who does not know this story should read it.

            • Ian

              I didn’t, but I do now :O

            • Truthiwant

              I can be satirical about Scientology so as to see the comical side but when I read something like Raul Lopez’s story my blood boils because it is not funny anymore.

    • sugarplumfairy

      I’ve never once seen Tony brag about pissing off the indies..

      Maybe you weren’t hypnotized.. Maybe you’d already deluded yourself so well into believing in your “wins'” that you didn’t need to be hypnotized..

      You still need to pick a side, Flunk..

      • FLUNK_101

        Tony bragged about “pissing off the indies” in a video of him giving a speech at a party in someone’s back yard.
        I’m not defending Hubbard or Scientology, SPF. And it just so happens that I like you very much, and I don ‘t want to argue … but I really do try to look at my life in both artistic and scientific terms, and I ‘m not going to be dishonest with myself or anyone else about my experiences. Even with something as evil as Scientology.
        Peace.

        • sugarplumfairy

          I like you too, Flunk..

          • Captain Howdy

            That’s not how we brew a brouhaha. 🙂

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Thanks for reminding me…more coffee!

            • sugarplumfairy

              I didn’t down vote flunk.. I reserve down votes for praise of lrh or defense of co$’ evil deeds.. I never down vote opinion unless it includes one of those two things.. I do, however, tend to loudly voice my own opinion if I disagree with someone else’s.. Isn’t that why you love me? =)

            • Captain Howdy

              I didn’t necessarily think you had. I rarely ever down vote comments either. I do down vote rude comments and drive by comments by scilons (or people pretending to be) who are too chicken to hang around and argue their beliefs. If a real scientologist showed up here and seriously debated/defended their beliefs with someone, I wouldn’t down vote them.

        • TonyOrtega

          I have pointed out that my stories anger independent Scientologists, but it’s usually in the context that over at places like WWP, I have my detractors who say I’m too friendly to indies, particularly Rathbun and Rinder. Call me naive, but I like to think of this blog as an equal opportunity offender, and eventually just about everyone is going to be unhappy with a point made in one of our posts. The last time I brought up hypnotism — when I found such interesting references to it in D:MSMH and asked Vance about it — I was genuinely taken aback to see some indies react violently about it. Jon volunteered to examine the subject in more depth in today’s post, and so I brought up the indie reaction not as a brag, but just as genuine curiosity. But I’m not really sure what Flunk’s issue is. He seems to suggest that I’ve seized upon hypnosis as an explanation for what draws in people to Scientology. I don’t think I was making that point. Hubbard talked about a dianetic “reverie,” and then we know people are convinced that they’re going back in time to explore their own experience in the womb or on planets millions of years ago. Might hypnosis help explain why they believe that they’re remembering real experiences? Maybe. I don’t know. But I don’t think in either of these pieces about hypnotism that I’ve tried to “explain the cult phenomenon” as Flunk charged. It’s actually kind of a confusing criticism, to tell the truth.

          • jensting

            being criticised by both extremes (while not setting out to do so) is a good way of finding that you’re on the right track. Keep it up, please.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            “Call me naive, but I like to think of this blog as an equal opportunity offender”

            This is the best part of the Blog!

            • DeElizabethan

              I agree BTN. Those that don’t like it or can’t take it, tough nuts!

          • villagedianne

            I”ve been hypnotized and during the hypnosis I remembered past lives. Partly it felt like I was making it up as I went along, and partly it felt very real. The images were extremely vivid, the colors, the emotions. Like the most vivid dream you’ve ever had. During the hypnosis I was very aware of my surroundings. I was in a very relaxed state, with my eyes closed. I could hear all the noises around me, the traffic outside the window, etc. I had not gotten much sleep the night before, but after the hypnosis i felt as rested as if I’d had the most wonderful night’s sleep ever.

            • Missionary Kid

              Read up on Bridey Murphy.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridey_Murphy
              “Well, the older I get the more I want to believe in it.”

              Like Dianetics, it was another of those wacky stories and beliefs that circulated in the early 50s.

              To take a term from a science fiction story, it was “The Silly Season.”

          • FLUNK_101

            Tony, your blog is the best Internet coverage of Scientology there is. I used to follow Tory Magoo on youtube, but then I found you.
            I admire your writing style which is hip, lucid and always a pleasure to read.
            Marty is a bore. Been there, done that, Marty!
            But I’m kind of a science nut, and sometimes I like to encourage others to avail themselves of the new knowledge of our times, especially with regard to the brain and cognitive science.
            I apologize if I was too critical or vague.
            Flunk

      • BuryTheNuts2

        “You still need to pick a side, Flunk.”

        Seriously SPF?
        How does anything he said above indicate that he needs to still pick a side?
        If you think Flunk is going to ever run straight down the “UB party” line just to keep any of the rest of us nodding our heads in agreement, than you have not been listening to him for the last year.

        There is whole lot of black and white on this blog and the world really is in shades of gray.
        Shades of gray are what gives the depth to the conversation.

        Good on you Flunk. I personally appreciate that you call it as ‘you’ see it and not as I might! That is what has always made you so deeply interesting to talk to.

        • FLUNK_101

          Thanks, BTN. I ‘m not demanding that anyone agree with what I say.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            I never said you were!

            But I still don’t think “pick a side” was fair!

            • FLUNK_101

              Thx.

        • sugarplumfairy

          I calls ’em like I sees ’em, Bury.. I like Flunk, but he still occasionlly waxes nostalgic for the brainwashing tech.. And the tech is the absolute worst part of scientology as far as I’m concerned.. I’ve seen first hand how it can change a good, kind, intelligent man into an asshole ‘bot.. If I had a million, I’d bet you a tiny fraction of it that I’m closer to correct than you are about our friend flunk.. I’ve been reading him for a year too.. And I have a really good memory..

          • BuryTheNuts2

            I also have a very good memory.
            I remember the entire shooting match.
            I have a different perspective.
            The last thing I see is him waxing nostalgic “for” the brainwashing tech.

            And I also call it like I see it.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yah, you do!!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Ok, we both hate the COS.
              We both like Flunk.
              We see Flunk differently.

              Two outta three ain’t bad!
              Now I am thinking of that song….

            • sugarplumfairy

              Plus we both like tacos and alcohol.. We’re frking soulmates, baby..

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Fuck yeah!

            • Captain Howdy

              Seeing as how we probably lost “somebody” again due to infighting, I think we should simply avoid discussing other people. If someone goes “off”, ignore it, give them a down vote, and move on.

          • Well I haven’t been here very long really and so I don’t have a good chance on correctly reading Flunk or Bury or you ms. Fairy, but ummm how much of a tiny fraction of that million (that you might not really have) were you thinking about betting?

            • sugarplumfairy

              A reeeeeally tiny fraction..

    • jensting

      Pissing off indies … ignorance. Well, do you really believe that only the ignorant “piss off” independent scientologists? Are those the only choices – “pissing them off” or accepting everything they say without any question?
      If they cannot accept questions which are even close to the fervour with which they propagate their self-hypnosis induced claims of grandeur, then they – the indies – are not fit for polite society.
      Watch Mike Hobson being found out on WWP recently – complaining about a “private” facebook post where the polite front disappears and he froths at the mouth against a critic. Pure deliciousness – but not for Hobson.

      • Sidney18511

        Jensting…is it possible that you could post a link to that WWP post. I could use some hysterical laughter right now. If you can’t, maybe you can remember what thread it was on.

        • Vixie

          Here’s some lulz . . . read as Independent Steve Hall lets the mask slip and rips the original Independents a new one in an effort to get their ethics in:

          • Espiando

            As I said about a week ago, Marty is harmless these days, more interested in exploring Source’s Sources and coming to conclusions. Mike is morphing into One Of Us. Steve Hall (and Mike Hobson) is Why I Protest. The fact that Hall is pushing Scientology Ethics is enough reason to smack him down. We all know what their “ethics” consist of.

            • ThetaBara

              Well said, Espi.

          • jensting

            LOL . We’re going to see more of this, not less, as the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology loses its ability to keep victims quiet. This is a good thing. As to those victims who have no sense of humour about critics laughing at Hubbard – well, ehrm, romance them throroughly if they can’t take a joke.

        • jensting

          This one. Relevant (since it deals with Hobson DA’ing Jon Atack). https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/geir-isenes-girlfriend-speaks-on-scientology-experience-more-coming.110898/#post-2308169

          Thread more notable for being both happy (Geir Isene’s girlifriend is leaving corporate Co$ and promising delicious dox on Danish Co$ crimes – one of my favourite topics), and sad – Samki’s cat didn’t make it 🙁

          • Spackle Motion

            I just went through that thread and it is kinda funny. Hobson seems like a decent guy underneath all of the culty crap. He’s still protecting Hubbard, sadly.

          • DeElizabethan

            Great! Thx for all.

      • FLUNK_101

        Tony does a great job of exposing the evil of
        Scientology. He also provides a forum for
        people like me to express their ideas on the
        subject, and I thank him for that every time I
        post a comment.
        But Tony is not a science reporter.
        Even in science, there are wack-jobs, and leave it to Tony to find them! He wrote an interesting article about an “evolutionary psychologist ” at Cal State Long Beach.

        http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups168.html

        But Tony also suggests that the emerging science
        of evolutionary psychology is, somehow or another,
        total bullshit. IMHO, this is an ignorant view , and he
        does his readers a disservice when he tries to comment
        on scientific issues he has little or no understanding of.

        • jensting

          What does the “H” in the above abbreviation mean? To you, I mean…

          • Captain Howdy

            Heroic?

            j/k Flunk.

          • DeElizabethan

            LOL

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oh vey!!!

        • TonyOrtega

          It’s true, I had a great time exposing Kevin MacDonald for his antisemitism. But I don’t think evolutionary psychology is all bunk. I was just pointing out that it tends to attract people who seem determined to turn their personal biases into scientific research (which tends to fall apart on close examination). So in Florida, we also did a story about evolutionary psychologists who were trying to prove that men fuck their women with more effort if they think there’s a chance their partner has had a recent opportunity to be unfaithful. And they did this by testing out some scenarios with rubber cocks and vaginas. And yes, I’m serious. Wouldn’t you know, it turns out the lead researcher had been cheated on by a former partner, and it was pretty plain that his theories were pretty wrapped up in his personal problems. You just don’t see that in physics or chemistry, you know? So yes, I have been critical of evolutionary psychology. But I do think it has come up with some very interesting things to say about our evolutionary development, particularly in the differences between men and women.

          • FLUNK_101

            Thanks Tony.

          • Hubbard would have liked evolutionary biology, a field in which speculation and opinion, if expressed with apparent authority, transcends the boring and old-fashioned scientific method.

            I think some of the researchers in this area prefer to use the term evolutionary biology to evolutionary psychology, as biology is generally considered to be a more precise and easily testable science.

            But in the ‘publish or perish’ cut-throat world of academia, experimental design in this discipline can sometimes lack the rigour expected in the hard sciences.

            I remember one paper exploring the hypothesis that women display more bare skin during the fertile time in their cycle, where the data collection involved going into Manchester night clubs armed with a clipboard accessing how scantily the females were dressed by a rather arbitrary measure, then asking them what stage of their cycle were they at. Young women, after a fair few drinks may not always remember such insignificant details.

            This sort of data gathering is as scientific as the Durex on-line survey asking men to measure the length and width of their erect penises, apparently forgetting that men are not very reliable at making such accurate measurements.

            But I like reading evolutionary biology research papers, they’re much more fun than boring maths, chemistry or physics ones.

            Andrew

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Great post, nice points. Especially the biology vs. psychology distinction.

            • FLUNK_101

              The last time I read something about “evolutionary psychology” was in a book by Eric Kandle. He’s a Harvard Professor, a Nobel winner and a senior investigator at the prestigious Howard Hughes Institute. Do you really think he got that far by “transcending the boring and old-fashioned scientific method?” Because if that’s what you think, Andy boy, you are seriously out of touch with anything that could be described as cutting edge science.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              “There is no single person who knows everything, and we are all entitled to our opinions.”

              ^^^Your words Flunk!
              This blog entry today had/has the potential for some deep discussion and points of view. And there is a wonderful diversity of opinion here with some of the most awesome people ever (including you).
              Maybe you lend too much credence to the opinion of someone based on their tenure at someplace like Harvard, or MIT, or where ever. Or an award!

              I love Cog-Sci and other science disciplines and so do you! So do several other people on this board.
              It is one thing to have a discussion. It is another to trivialize someones opinion because you are just being arrogant.
              YOU are smarter and better than that.
              Knock it off.

              And if you prefer to have a knock down drag out on the blog with me over this post, bring it on!

              But that is not my intention.
              But I do wish you would put “Mean Flunk” back in the genie bottle.

              I am just hoping you are being an arrogant drunk right now!!!

            • grundoon

              “Andy boy” ??

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yah.. I still want to smack him for that..

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Ditto!

          • John P.

            It was pretty plain that his theories were pretty wrapped up in his personal problems.

            Funny, that description applies remarkably well to Hubbard and Scientology. Don’t lots of ex’s say they think so much of auditing is Hubbard attempting to handle his own case, not everyone else’s?

        • Captain Howdy

          Now you’re just pushing the envelope. Oh well.

      • Spackle Motion

        I haven’t seen that thread…can you give me a link? Hobson is so annoying.

      • Captain Howdy

        Let me guess they found out it was Hobson because he signed his comments…

        “Mike Hobson
        Independent Scientologist”

        I use to do a “WTF?” and lamo when he would comment here.

    • I would think that there are as many shades of hypnotism as there are people unless you give it a inclusive definition. Otherwise I would think “states of mind” was something lrh was attempting to project into people through many different techniques. I think that lrh believed in abilities that could be brought about by certain practices and he built his tech around some of those practices. The tech worked for some because of the state of mind they were in at the time and this lead them further into that path he was laying out.

      • FLUNK_101

        Thank you for your intelligent reply.
        I think Hubbard stumbled onto some techniques that can (sometimes) elevate person ‘s mood in a profound way without drugs. He then attached to that his bullshit pseudoscience, designed to manipulate and control. But if you’re trying to sum it all up with one word, I think that “hypnotism” is just too vague a term.

    • Vistaril

      Your use of the term “cult phenomenon” is a strawman. That’s not what Tony or Jon were alluding to. If you have another read, you will see that what is being addressed to “Dianetics reverie”. As to the whole shebang which constitutes the crippling effect Scientology has on a person, L Ron Hubbard’s “Brainwashing Manual” provides a stark insight. In a classic Hubbardian trick, “Source” set about warning his flock about such things thus distracting from the fact that he is, in fact, applying those very techniques upon them. For a more academic view of how Scientology controls its most ardent aherents, the “Levine Declaration” used in the Headley case goes into greater depth and with a more modern understanding. Dr Levine’s document concludes:

      . . .In their depositions, the examiner repeatedly asks the Headleys why, if conditions were so terrible in Scientology, they didn’t simply get up and leave? When oneconsiders their bad
      fortune to have been born into the organization, along with the totality of thecoercive, manipulative, often abusive manipulations –physical, psychological and social – they encountered in Scientology, and the sense of helplessness this all created, it is my conclusion that they were no longer in control of making rational decisions and that their treatment under Scientology was the cause of this inability. Scientology had, through the totality of its coercions and abuse, deprived the Headleys of the ability to exercise free will in their decision making. The vast majority of “normal” people would have reacted just as the Headleys did.

      In conclusion, it is my opinion to a reasonable degree of probability, that their experience in Scientology deprived the Headleys from making clearly thought out, rational decisions that might have been in their best interests in the long-term, i.e. to leave their lives inside Scientology much earlier than they did.

      • FLUNK_101

        Your argument is the “Straw man,” because you misrepresented what I said.
        If you retread the article , you’ll see that the “dianetic reverie” of Book One Auditing is mentioned, as well as just “auditing,” and I distinguished between the two in my comment.

        • sugarplumfairy

          “Are you trolling me, or are you just stupid?”

          The irony of you saying that to Vistaril may be lost to some, but not to me..

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Flicks a spoonful of mashed potatoes at your forehead for typing one sentence too many!!!

        • stillgrace

          Aw … FLUNK! You’ve been so agreeable and interesting for such a long time, and then you pull this!

          • FLUNK_101

            I know you hate me, stillgrace, you’ve made that clear enough.
            You’ve trolled me many times, and if you don ‘t understand, look up the definition of a troll.
            The last time I tried to be friendly with you, you called me a “disingenuous HO.”
            I really don’t know what to say to you at this point.
            How about this original poem about your avatar:

            A perfect avatar,
            for someone like you.
            You’re so stupid, stillgrace,
            your brain’s turning blue!

            • stillgrace

              Don’t hate you at all. Sometimes I am disappointed by your behavior and treatment of other Bunkerites. The “HO” incident? I was trying to joke with you. It failed, mostly because you edited your comments, making my comments look dumb.

              I had hope for you when you stopped using so many accounts to post, and started being nice to everyone. But I guess we’re back to “Grave Reservations”. No biggie.

            • Captain Howdy

              Yea, that’s a bingo on the changing of the comments.

            • FLUNK_101

              That’s a lie.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Flunk?

            • Captain Howdy

              No, it’s not. And I suggest you let today go and just move on.

            • FLUNK_101

              Move on yourself, Howdy.
              What you and stillgrace are saying about me just isn’t true.You can’ prove it … because it didn’t happen. Sorry!

              me

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oh, btw flunk….come to me baby………………….Put your head on my shoulder.
              Muah!!!

            • DeElizabethan

              Are we absolutely sure Flunk, is one person and the same? I like my happy hour, but don’t change that drastically, but maybe I’m missing something? Whatcha say Flunk?

            • Well, some people have mood swings and behave differently at different times.

              Others are more consistent in the gist of their remarks and it’s easier to feel comfortable in relating to them.

              So I just poddle along and ignore the things I prefer not to hear.

              Andrew

            • BuryTheNuts2

              You are awesome Andrew. And yeah, some of us have more mood swings than others and need a tad more space to “swing”.
              You are a Peach!

            • FLUNK_101

              SWING? This guy Andrew couldn’t swing from a rope!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Bull shit baby. Andrew is awesome.
              You can swing just like I Can!
              And we are both lucid adults.
              BTW..That Oiliness table is HOT!!!

            • sugarplumfairy

              I’m going to take Andrew’s excellent advice.. but first, a poem..

              I will not play tug o’ war.

              I’d rather play hug o’ war,

              Where everyone hugs

              Instead of tugs,

              Where everyone giggles

              And rolls on the rug,

              Where everyone kisses,

              And everyone grins,

              And everyone cuddles,

              And everyone wins.

              ~Shel Silverstein

            • DodoTheLaser

              My Hug to you, Dear SPF!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Hugs back, Dear Dodo!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Me likey!

            • FLUNK_101

              That down arrow was not from me … none of them are.

            • FLUNK_101

              Mood swings, Andy boy? Is that why you post a comment and then delete it?
              You realized you were wrong! Only your not honest enough to admit it.

            • sugarplumfairy
            • FLUNK_101

              Jimmy Durante’s “Make Someone Happy?”
              Nothing makes me happier then to make someone happy. If only you knew what kind of person I really am.
              Later, SPF.

            • FLUNK_101

              Again with this shit? I did not make any signicant changes with my edit, and I wasn’t trying to make you look stupid! You still managed to come up with an excuse to insult me for no reason. Give it up, stillgrace.

            • stillgrace

              Nevah! It is what it is. Deal with it!

            • FLUNK_101

              You are a liar and a malicious person.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Enough already with the confronting and shattering..

              Apparently, you can take the boy out of co$, but it’s a lot harder to take the co$ out of the boy..

            • FLUNK_101

              Confront and shatter? You do a lot of that yourself, SPF.
              But when you do it it’s OK?
              Please, could you stop accusing me of being a Scientologist, being deluded, or being “ruined” by the tech?
              You don’t know me. You really don’t.
              Please stop with the harassment and “trolling” behavior. I’d really appreciate that. (I’m assuming you have enough decency in you to understand what I’m saying.)
              Later, SPF.

            • sugarplumfairy

              “I weep for you,” the Walrus said: “I deeply sympathize.”

              You’re kind of right, Flunk.. I am excessively fond of a good Confront.. Shatter? Not so much.. I promise to work on it.. because I like you so much and because you always treat everyone decently.. Oh wait.. Ok, I’ll work on it anyway because I am decent and because I know you’ve been subjected to lrh’s mind-altering tech somewhere along your time track.. I think deep down you’re a good guy.. But co$ would f*ck up a saint..

            • DeElizabethan

              Sugar, hang in. He’s offering a perfect example of something, can’t say what yet. It’s sad either way!

            • stillgrace

              Nope. I’m not. And it’s not! And I’m a long country mile from stupid, too. If you were aware, you’d realize I only give you a hard time when you insult people. Oh, but then you’d have to take responsibility for your words and actions. Something I’ve never seen you do.

            • FLUNK_101

              I never take responsibility for my actions ?
              Again, you lie. And an obvious and stupid lie at that.
              I even discussed my history on this blog with you personally, right?
              Some people may have given me a hard time because they didn’t understand where I was coming from. But you never say anything about THEM, only about me, if I say something back to them. This exposes your obvious hatred of me.
              I’ve always been honest, about everything, and I’ve even APOLOGIZED from time to time, if things got a little overheated.

              You you want a friend, stillgrace, then BE A FRIEND.
              Otherwise, please leave me alone.
              Yours truly,
              Flunk

            • sugarplumfairy

              I can’t be sure, but I’d bet that up arrow came from Stillgrace herself.. Why do I think so? Because she’s a lovely, intlligent lady who doesn’t hate anyone and would never dream of making anyone feel stupid.. Unlike me.. =)

            • BuryTheNuts2

              And that up arrow came from me!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              The initial joke did not fail!
              In fact it was funny!

            • FLUNK_101

              It wasn’t me. Can I still bite you?

            • BuryTheNuts2

              I Love u.
              Of course.
              Tell me what i taste like?

              Edit: If U say fish..I am kickin ur ass.!!!~

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. And that up arrow came from me..

  • monkeyknickers

    Actually . . . . I’m curious. How many people here genuinely think that hypnosis is for real?

    I mean, the whole concept, a la Hubbard or anyone else.

    • Sidney18511

      I, for one, feel that I could not be hypnotized. But maybe some people are open to suggestions via a talented hypnotists.
      If anyone has any hypno stories, I would love to hear them.

      • Missionary Kid

        There are indeed people who are hard to hypnotize, but I’ve seen people make the same statement about not being able to be hypnotized who succumbed fairly quickly.

        One of the things that is done (Edit. By Hubtard) is to state that it is not hypnotism. That puts people who are concerned about hypnotism at ease. It’s all part of the con.

        • Sidney18511

          When I was a kid, my dad took me and my brother to see Kreskin a famous hypno and “mind reader” live. My brother who was about 15 years old went on stage to be hypnotized with a group of 10 other people. Kreskin did his hokis-pokis and ran the group through some stunts and they all followed his commands. I watched my brother flap his hands as if they were on fire and do some other foolish things. After, I asked him if he was really hypnotized and he said NO, but because he was on stage in front of hundreds of people he felt he had to play along. He remembered every command that was given even though Kreskin told them they would remember nothing.

          • Sherbet

            Sidney, do you know Kreskin is still doing his act? He was at a local theater not long ago.

            • Sidney18511

              Yeah Sherbert I saw something about him not too long ago, he’s got to be in his 70’s or 80’s by now. In his heyday he was on TV all the time. I think he was one of the first to turn “mind reading” into entertainment for the masses.

              There was a psychic years ago I can’t remember his name (I think it began with a C) who seemed to be the real deal. Many books have been written about him. If I think of his name I’ll post it.

            • Captain Howdy

              Edgar Cayce?

              Yeah, he was as real…but not psychic.

            • Sherbet

              I even have an Amazing Kreskin ESP game somewhere in the cellar, 1968 or so vintage.

            • ThetaBara

              OMG! So do I

            • Missionary Kid

              If he’s a real psychic, he can apply for the million dollar prize offered by Randi.

            • grundoon
            • Edgar Cayce?

          • Missionary Kid

            How to become a psychic in 10 easy lessons: http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/learn-to-be-a-psychic-in-10-easy-lessons/

            If your brother wasn’t hypnotized, why did he go along with what he was told?

            Not all of the post-hypnotic suggestions, IMO, are followed. The power of hypnotism is not absolute, no matter what the claims.

          • Spackle Motion

            That is called the power of suggestion. Those phony side show hypnotists are only convincing a group of people to act strangely because they are on a stage.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              That is a big ass bingo!!!

    • Guest

      Its all a bunch of bullsh–t. Nothign real about it.

    • Missionary Kid

      I would say yes. I went to a psychologist who also used hypnotism as a part of their tool kit. There needs to be a lot of trust in that situation, because a mistake on the part of the hypnotist can lead someone to false conclusions about themselves and those around them.

      I was skeptical about hypnotism, but a willing participant. I feel that it was helpful for me because it lowered some of the natural defenses that we all have around our thinking processes. I was aware of what was being said, but, as I recall it, I was much more pliant and direct in my answers to the therapist.

      It has been shown that a hypnotist can implant false memories by suggestions. In some cases, these have had terrible consequences for the patient and their families. False memories of child molestation by a parent, for instance.

      In other cases, because of inadvertent suggestions by the hypnotist, a person will “remember” things that never happened. It is for that reason that a witness who has been hypnotized is considered unreliable.

      If I were to do it again, I would insist on a video being made of the session that I could have for myself.

      There has been a lot of research done on hypnotism, and, while it is not thoroughly understood, experiments have been conducted to see what the limits are. For instance, a person who is not so inclined can’t be forced to rob a bank.

      • monkeyknickers

        But how did they do it MK? Out of curiosity. Swinging pocket watch? I really have no idea how it’s done.

        • Missionary Kid

          The whole swinging watch thing is a (to me) hokey representation of getting a person to concentrate on an object or idea to the point that their focus is solely on it. Getting a person to concentrate on a pleasant experience relaxes them.

          I went to the dentist for years and didn’t use anesthetics because I used childbirth relaxation techniques. (Relaxation and concentration on other things). I was aware of the pain, but because I was relaxed, the pain level was much lower. I also didn’t have a sore mouth from a liquid being injected into very dense tissue or numb mouth that lasted for hours.

          • Sidney18511

            MK…you deserve a trophy for getting dental work done without anesthetics!! I am so freaked out by dentists that I need anesthetics BEFORE I walk in their door. I need oral surgery and I just about pee in my big girl panties thinking about it. And I’m in my 50’s.

            • Missionary Kid

              No big deal. It started when I was in Europe and got a toothache. I went to a dentist, and he started drilling without anesthetic. I was surprised and asked him about it. He said that it gave him an indication of what condition the nerve was in. The pain was about the same as when I’d had a shot of xylocaine.

              It turns out, he was definitely old school in his dental technique, because I had to have the filling re-done in a few years.

              What I discovered is that the fear is what makes the pain more intense. Xylocaine never seemed to work that well for me, anyway.

              I’d say that your fear of the pain makes it much worse.

              I believe that when a person is tortured, the anticipation of the pain and the uncertainty of when it is administered makes it so much more unbearable.

            • Sidney18511

              Maybe your right about the fear of the pain making it worse, but I definitely need DRUGS, lots of DRUGS to make it through an appointment. Last weekend I had an abscess in a broken tooth that blew the right side of my face up so bad I had to go to an urgent care.
              I had an IV and she jammed a needle into the abscess to drain it. I screamed and cried like a little baby, but that pain was tremendous. I would rather give birth again.

            • Missionary Kid

              I wasn’t dealing with an abscess when I went to the dentist. Could your fear of the pain have led you to not make appointments for dental care that could have prevented the abscess?

              There are a number of different responses to different pains. I don’t like electric shock, but I’ve worked “hot” a lot, and have gotten shocked often. I find it annoying, and I take measures to ensure that if I get a shock it doesn’t go across my heart. On the other hand, I REALLY dislike the shock from a carpet. (The voltage is magnitudes higher than wall current). There are people who just hear the word “shock” and they give an involuntary shudder.

            • Sidney18511

              Yes MK, you have diagnosed me to a tee. Fear keeps me out of the dentist office until I have an emergency. I think that some people, like yourself, have a high tolerance to certain painful procedures. If I was more like you my teeth would most likely be in good shape now.

            • i totally ashare your rational fear of dentists . I ..am a proud anti-dentite. I think they are sadists . And i am SURE there is enough technology in the world to make a silent drill …but will the evil dentists use it ?? NOOOOOOOO…because they love to watch you squirm. And would it kill them to pluck their nose hair once and a while ?

            • Missionary Kid

              I find the modern drills far less annoying than the old fashioned ones that ran the drill by means of a string-like belt.

              The modern ones still annoy, but not like the old ones did.

              I don’t know if it’s still done, but some dentists were using lasers for a while.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Still are.

            • That sends me back in time to the Durie Hill Primary School Dental Clinic in Wanganui circa the late ’50’s.

              A foot operated treadle drill, no anaesthetic just the reward afterward of the dental nurse pouring some mercury into your cupped hand which you could take back to your desk and play with until the little round shiny balls fell on the floor and were lost.

              I don’t think school dental nurses are allowed to give such rewards to young children in this more enlightened age.

              Andrew

            • Missionary Kid

              The treatment sounds like it would be at a $cientology school today, given LRH’s aversion to dental hygiene, and the insistence of his successor on not changing any of the tech from Source. With his theory that smoking prevents cancer, he’d probably think the mercury hazard was some sort of psyche lie and prescribe more..

              The mercury now would bring out the hazmat team. That stuff is Dangerous. We didn’t know. I used to play with it, too. The problem is, it accumulates rapidly in the body, and is VERY slowly released.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Aaaaaggghhhh!

            • Sidney18511

              Kim…and if fear of the actual dental procedure isn’t enough scare the crapola out of you, they get you with the cost estimate. The last dentist gave me a price of 52 THOUSAND dollars. That’s nuts! My first house only cost me 40 thousand.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Wow, I thought mine was bad! Yours is freaking double!

              Is your Dentist a Scientologist going for Diamond Meritorious status?

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Fear=adrenalin=hypersensitivity= ouch!!!!!!!!!!!

            • Missionary Kid

              You got it.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              “I went to a dentist, and he started drilling without anesthetic. I was surprised and asked him about it. He said that it gave him an indication of what condition the nerve was in.”

              That dude would have gotten an indication of what condition my nerve was in when I crawled out of that chair and beat the shit out of him!

            • Missionary Kid

              There wasn’t any pain until he did hit the nerve, just the annoying damn drill.

              When he did hit it, I kept myself under control, and I found that the pain was about the same as when I’d had the injection. He only hit it about twice.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              You must be a much nicer person than me!

            • Missionary Kid

              You can always grab a male dentist by the balls, and tell them that “When I hurt, you will, too.”

              I think that having a nurse for a mother made me more accepting of medical procedures. One of the things I’m proud of is that I’ve got credit for over 39 gallons of blood donations. I cheat, because I get double credit for donating platelets (It takes me about 1 1/2 hours each time). Also, for platelets, the recommended time between donations is 2 weeks, instead of the 8 for whole blood, so I can donate more often. One can, if needed, donate again in 48 hours.

              I’ve got all sorts of T shirts advertising blood donation that I wear all the time. I’ve had big, burly, bikers, with all sorts of tats come up to me and say, “I can’t do that. I’m afraid of needles.”

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Good for you! I got kicked off the big red bus permanently! I kept trying but my veins are so deep it was a virtual bloodletting just finding a vein.
              They finally said, thanks, but have a cookie and don’t come back!
              I was bummed.

            • Missionary Kid

              Sorry to hear that. At least you tried.

              I’ve joked that if I get stopped by the cops and they took a look at my arm, that they’d think I was shooting up something, but my arm looks O.K., the last hole is gone, and I donated Wed.

              The funny thing is, the guy who’s donated the most at my blood bank is smaller than DM’s size.

            • Xenu, Lord of Kobol

              Suggestion: Request nitrous ahead of injections.

              Warning: Don’t hyperventilate … the effects are fun but the headache after isn’t ….

            • Sidney18511

              Excellent idea! I had that years ago and it was mucho big fun!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              There ya go! Now make that appointment.

            • Observer

              I had nitrous when I had my crown done, and I fell asleep in the chair.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Get hypnotized first!

              (Joke)

            • Sidney18511

              Bury…you just had some dental work done didn’t you? I was sucking down my antibiotics when I read about you spending 7 hours in the chair? Just thinking about that gave me the shivers.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Yep and I got more to go. I am getting Veneers and the process involves two full separate days in the chair and about 18 total appointments.
              Grinding, drilling, replaced crowns and a bridge.

              And I gotta tell you…I finally found the right dentist. She rocks. Pain has been very minimal.
              But then she drugs me up with some truth serum type stuff (conscious sedation).

              Go for it. Your mouth is too important to your overall health to ignore.Especially heart health.

            • ThetaBara

              Ugh! >.<

            • Missionary Kid

              Actually, there are dentists who use hypnotism.

            • Spackle Motion

              There are dentists that don’t use x-rays for diagnostic purposes. There are dentists that refuse to have a computer or a fax machine.

              But dentists that use hypnotism in lieu of anesthesia are playing with fire.

            • Missionary Kid

              That may well be, and, I’m sure that they have tests to make sure that the patient is “under.”
              The power of suggestion is strong in hypnotism.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Hey, The Scientologist’s have Chiropractor’s who can adjust your spine over the phone!

            • sister wendy

              no shit. really?

          • BosonStark

            It’s also better not to use anesthesia if you’re getting a composite filling, because you can tell if it fits correctly.

            Since I was into using meditative techniques at the time, and had gone without anesthesia before, once I went to a “naturopathic dentist” and when he hit a nerve, I jumped, and he said very sharply, “Relax! Relax!.” That’s what I paid the extra money for. I could have used a little hypnosis — maybe a swinging watch or some Ninja-Dianutty or something.

            • Missionary Kid

              I found that dentists often missed the specific nerve path when injecting xylocaine, so the amount of pain was nearly the same with and without it. Usually, the pain, while it could be intense, was short lived, and when I relaxed, it was much lower.

              Oftentimes, it was the surprise of hitting the nerve that would cause me to tense up if I wasn’t prepared.

          • stanrogers

            I believe that’s what they call “transcend dental” meditation…

            • Missionary Kid

              That’s the PUN OF THE DAY!!!

            • FistOfXenu

              Oh man, I can’t make up my mind if that’s so good it’s bad or so bad it’s good.
              Guess I’ll say it’s good.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              loves this!

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Depends on the hypnotist. I went to one once who used a black and white spiral illusion to get you there. You stared at the center and it felt as if it were pulling you into a drain.

          • Missionary Kid

            Yup, focus, focus, focus, relax.

        • sister wendy

          my mother in low does self hypnosis before she goes to the dentist. Seems to work- she never needs Novocaine, which I find amazing…..

      • monkeyknickers

        And what does being “hypnotized” really mean? Is there a basic definition and description?

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Most basic form…I suggest something and you are agreeable to my suggestion.
          Now extrapolate based on the context and state of mind of the person under suggestion.

    • sugarplumfairy

      The proof is in the pudding.. yeah.. I believe in hypnosis, and for that matter brainwashing too..

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klhHkPNsXe0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    • media_lush

      We had the famed “Hypno Dog” act at my university. When you saw your “he won’t be able to hypnotise me” friend imagining that he was Michael Jackson, high pitched voice, multiple crotch-grabbing and failed moonwalk and all you tend to think that it’s real.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Good morning Monkeyknickers.

      Anything is real if ones mind perceives it as such. Hypnosis is at its most basic “the simple power of suggestion”. Everyone has a degree of suggestability. I can hypnotize myself easily and bring on a powerful ability to concentrate and remember things well into my early childhood. (sorry, can’t remember a thing about getting poked in the eye by a penis as a zygote though).

      I will probably get flamed for this, but I think TM and other forms of Meditation are just a form of this. Hypnosis is not a bad thing. It can be very powerful and extremely empowering. It is simply a way to remove the mental noise getting in the way of that concentration and focus.

      But put a highly suggestible (or eager to please) person in the hands of a psychoanalyst with a bias…and you can have all kinds of trouble (bullshit recovered memories al la the 90’s anyone?)

      Hubbard had a midas type touch….except everything turned to shit!
      Hypnosis like any other powerful state of mind can be wonderful or dangerous.

      • Captain Howdy

        “Anything is real if ones mind perceives it as such” = “what’s true is what’s true for you”

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Well don’t you think it is about time someone co-opted something from Hubbard instead of the other way around!
          Haha.

      • Bella Legosi

        Oh you flame me Bury

        >D

        But, it’s always in the best of ways and with the best of intentions!

        “Hubbard had a Midas type touch….except everything turned to shit!” Fuckin A!

        • BuryTheNuts2

          I would never flame my Bella!

          • Bella Legosi

            *blushes*
            ohhhh stop it
            😉

          • Bella Legosi

            haha I meant you make me hot baby lol

            Besides, the fires of Hell don’t burn Bury. And if I got chucked into a river or lake I am pretty sure I would float!
            http://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g

        • The Minus touch

    • I think “hypnosis” is a number of real phenomena (suggestion, guided/motivated imagery, relaxation techniques, etc.) but also surrounded by misinformation, hype, and delusion. I wrote a recent paper on hypnosis, voluntary action, and the law, looking for real cases of people who were coerced by hypnosis, which is published on SSRN: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1867824

      • Ian

        That looks like an excellent paper Jim, its it my clipbox to read later. Thanks for the link.

      • An excellent paper, Jim.

        ‘The experimental evidence suggests that individuals have the ability to resist, and doesn’t
        support the idea that individuals are unaware of what they are doing during hypnosis,
        though there are cases where a suggestion of amnesia was apparently quite effective.’

        This is real research.

        Andrew

      • richelieu jr

        Thanks Jim, I am a hypnotist, and this is just what I was talking about above…

    • I did not believe in it until 2008, when I was hypnotized into sleep. I will say, however, you have to be totally on-board with process, or it won’t work. I was stunned… I always thought it was a parlor trick.

      • monkeyknickers

        Hmm. Bradley do you mean . . . . that you have to feel like it’s going to work before you experience it?

    • Bella Legosi

      For me it is not a matter of faith Monkey. Hypnosis is very much real and has been used by con men and government agencies for years.

      • monkeyknickers

        But . . . how does is WORK, you know? Is it swinging something shiny in front of people, or . . . a way of saying word … . etc. I feel like Agent Mulder right now – I WANT to believe. 🙂

        Were you hypotized ever Bella?

  • Captain Howdy

    Thanks, I think now I can get back to sleep — been up since five. I see bumpy roads and foul weather in the comments section today. In other words, I smell a brouhaha brewing.

    • Sherbet

      WAKE UP, HOWDY! You’re at your best when there are bumpy roads ad foul weather in the comments section.

  • California

    Somewhat off-topic but…..http://news.narconon.org/drug-prevention-education-commended-lapd-awards/

    Yes, this is disseminated by Narconon so….

    But someone down in L.A. perhaps can talk with the L.A.P.D. Mission Division about their praise of Narconon Drug Education….. and maybe guide them to the California Department of Education’s evaluation of the nonscientific and discredited program: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/at/narcononevaluation.asp.

    And I hope someone can come up with the CCHR “call to San Francisco” for the A.P.A. Does anyone think that (gasp!) CCHR is now basically defunct? The way that Narconon Drug Rehabilitation will be soon?

    • Thanks for reference to the CDE’s evaluation of the Narconon Drug Education program. The evaluation is extensive, intelligent, informative – could be of great value to other states/systems approached by NDE.

      • California

        The CDE Narconon evaluation has been a useful tool over the years……

    • John P.

      Just to be clear, I believe the award to Scientology was not by the Mission division but by some independent citizen’s group formed to “support” the Mission division. Not that this excuses them getting any more bogus awards, but at least it was not an explicit bit of support from the actual LAPD.

      • California

        John: This is a quote from the article: “At the end of these awards, Commander Sharon Papa called up Sigal Adini and Tony Bylsma from this Narconon organization and thanked them for presenting drug education lectures to more than 400,000 youth over the years.”

        So it looks like the LAPD is involved. And, of course, the LA Sheriff’s Office, under Baca, has been supportive of SCN/Narconon for years, although he has toned it down recently.

        Right now, in California, we are having an influx of the DEA wanting to become involved in community affairs with youth. And as Luke Catton noted in his book, pgs. 106-107, the DEA was (and perhaps, is) very supportive of Narconon Drug Education and were quite disappointed when the SFUSD bounced the program in Aug. 2004 and then the California Department of Ed issued its ruling not recommending Narconon Drug Education in Feb. 2005. Communicate with Luke, John, and I think you can get some additional credible information.

        Some law enforcement at the local level here in California seem to be bending over backwards to help the DEA join and/or address the local community youth-oriented groups and some law enforcement groups are looking at the whole matter somewhat askance….. there appears to be, from the outside perspective, some division within and among the various local law enforcement entities on the matter of the DEA gaining access to youth.

        Locally, some parents are getting concerned because the DEA wants to talk to kids in various youth groups, without parental knowledge or permission. Sound familiar? So far, the DEA is not involved in public education except when they push their D.A.R.E. substance abuse education program. I do not know about private education.

  • Truthiwant

    Scientology auditing is the most wacky, insane, daft and cuckoo type of hypnosis known to
    man.

    Give me another quest where, with complete impassivity, an individual can sit in front of
    somebody holding a couple of tin cans and tell that person that he was a Roman soldier,
    a Viking warrior or a space hopping Galactic Overlord all in the
    stretch of an hour and then, with sheer irrationality, go to an examiner and tell
    him he has never felt better in his whole life. And pay for the privilege as well!

    Dotty and unglued me thinks.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Methinks you’re a genius! And no one had to bully, browbeat, reg or hypnotize me into that opinion..

      • Truthiwant

        Just a personal opinion and not for the Indies.

    • Bella Legosi

      Not nearly as crazy as Solo Auditing!
      That stuff really is destructive. And I am still hard pressed to find an intelligent answer as to why people believing that it can do positive things. That is really like saying, “Therapy? Who needs to talk to someone else when you can talk to yourself?”

      • Observer

        Especially when you have to pay for talking to yourself!

  • Xique

    So Sleepy
    BONG…………..

    • jensting

      Good! When you wake up you will feel lighter. (OK, specifically, your wallet will be lighter, but why quipple about details?)

      • Xique

        Hey wait a minute, what just happened? Why I ought a…

  • BuryTheNuts2

    I love Jon Atack’s series.

    He always inspires me to be “less insipid”!

    • Observer

      Insipid is just about the last adjective I’d use for you! lol

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Thanks!
        I think….

        • Observer

          It’s a compliment.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Awww, Thank you Observer!

    • 1subgenius

      I also strive to be sipid.

  • media_lush

    I don’t know if he’s the real one but someone calling themselves Marcotai has started posting in the comments again. If you check newest comments on the previous article to this one you’ll see him.

    • Captain Howdy

      It must be marco, he’s always been a day late and xenu knows how many dollars short.

      • Sherbet

        Do you think Marco was DownVoteBoy, too?

        • Captain Howdy

          Let me see what my mystical, heightened Chickasaw senses tell me….

          …your guess is as good as mine.

        • Captain Howdy

          Hey, we both got down votes, maybe you’re on to something.

  • DMSTCC

    I was up late last night and watched “America’s Book of Secrets: Deadly Cults”. While the majority of the hour long program featured Jonestown and Karesh, the C0$ marquees were shown at least 5 times.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      AWESOME!!!

    • Bella Legosi

      Nice.
      The times, they are a changing!
      I remember when I was about 8 years old, I went to the store with my grandma. I went to the magazine and book section and picked up a copy of Newsweek. I was flipping through it and came across a snippit that was titled, “Scinetology: The New Religion of the Stars”. As I read it, the article spoke about how Tom Cruise and John Travolta were adherents, that the religion itself was controversial, and then it attemped to explain that Scientology is the belief in spirituality, with the added bonus of being scientific. LOL Like I said guys, I was eight when I read this, so that was back in ’91 or ’92 (come to think of it, the article was prolly a fluff piece to attempt to out weight the Time story). Well, that night I talked to my mother about what I had read and pretty much repeated what the story stated. She shook her head and told me that I shouldn’t believe everything I read and that I was too young to be reading about things like Scientology.
      At the time I just thought she was being mean or didn’t want to admit that science does have pretty good arguments vs any faith out there. But now I know why she said what she did. And yes, I did think these things at the tender age of 8! I was taught to read very early and left to my own devices most of the time. So in essence I grew up a lot faster then most kids I knew!

      • Henk de Vries

        So funny…I know repeating your own comment is bad taste, but your comment is almost a spitting image of a comment I made earlier today, I just felt it did bear repeating:

        Lol, yes, getting trapped can be so easy. I remember reading a fluff piece on the cult, back in the late ’80s, early ’90 when they were having a fit with OG Karin Spaink. I wasn’t aware of the controversy and thought that a religion with a scientific basis was very intruiging. When I mentioned to my mom I was interested, she went into a panicky damage control mode. That definitely helped a swift disposal of the idea of joining….

        • Bella Legosi

          Nice! I didn’t make it down that far. I really feel awful today.

          I like to say, “Great minds do think a like!”

  • Vistaril

    Nice work, Tony and Jon. Thank you both, once again.

    I can understand why its proponents would deny it it but Scientology “tech” is hypnotism. This was recognised by authorities outside the cult in 1965 with the Anderson Report. That remarkable and prescient document had this to say . . .

    . . . The foregoing illustrations are sufficient to show that at almost every point there is a similarity, amounting almost to identity, between features of authoritative hypnosis and parallel features of scientology techniques. The dangers of the wholesale practice of these pernicious techniques cannot be over-emphasized. Not only does it constitute a very grave threat to the mental health of those already in scientology and in need of psychiatric help but it menaces persons who by ordinary standards are quite normal but may find their way into the scientology centre merely out of ambition, curiosity or adventure. Being unaware of what is in store for them, they may easily succumb to the lure of being made more able, and shortly find themselves mentally crippled by the dangerous practices of ignorant operatives. This has already been the tragic fate of many . . .

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/anderson/ar18.html

    . . . were it not for the hypnotic-like trance states induced by auditing, would an otherwise mentally healthy person end up spending years and years hunched over a re-boxed, 19th century wheatstone bridge seeking to telepathically communicate with the spiritual residue of aliens brought to Earth in DC-8 shaped UFOs 75 million years ago by galactic overlord Xenu and blown up next to volcanoes that didn’t even exist at the time in an effort to solve an over population problem?

    • piper

      Have you every been around Scino’s? You will frequently hear”I need a session!” Or” I can’t do that until I address it on auditing!”

    • sister wendy

      yeah- but I swear- I don’t think I ever went into a trance. It never felt like any kind of hypnosis I’d ever tried before. In fact, according to specialists, I think there is a large percent of the population that can’t be hypnotized. I’ve had both experiences. My auditing was never like hypnosis- unless there is a different definition or feeling.

  • BuryTheNuts2

    God I need more coffee.
    Remind me not to get up late on a Saturday again!

    • ThetaBara

      LOL, “late!”

  • It’s nice to see discussion on how LRH stole ideas from others, rather than just assuming he made up all this crap. Most everything LRH taught was from some other source, except perhaps his sci-fi musings like Xenu. He would read something that stuck in his mind, molded over there for a while, and came out pretty weird. Thus Dianetics and Scientology.

    • Sidney18511

      Actually Jeff, there was a comic book character named xenu. So he stole that too.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Ah, so true!

    • villagedianne

      L. Ron Hubbard Jr. said that most of his father’s ideas were stolen from others.

      In the link “The ESMB Posts” on this page, an old-timer discusses which parts of the tech were originated by others who worked with Hubbard. Link:

      http://www.paulsrabbit.com/

    • Bella Legosi

      Yes, it is. That is why when I see or hear people say, “Well some of the Tech actually works, therefore LRH has some substance and genius going on!” I shudder and vehemently disagree.
      What does work in the Tech are things Hub did steal, is common sense, or has been around a lot longer then Hub. That is why I believe he stole as much as he did from other philosophies and/or people. You need something that works or people wouldn’t believe in it and to reinvent, package, and promote the common sense he did, only speaks to the level of corruption and fraud that he was.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Agree in multiples!

        • Bella Legosi

          Why thank you mah lady

          • Sidney18511

            You know when you think about it, if the tech actually worked, even a little bit, a teensy tiny bit, the COS wouldn’t be as fcuked up as it is.

            • Bella Legosi

              Right right right!

            • ThetaBara

              Exactly! If the tech works then why is Anonymous still here?

            • BuryTheNuts2

              If the Tech works…why are we here?

  • Observer

    When I was in high school one of the assemblies we had each year was the performance of a stage hypnotist. My junior year I decided I wanted to see what it was like, so I volunteered. The hypnotist did a pre-assembly test run to find the best subjects. There were probably about 100.

    He started in on his “relax, you are feeling calm and peaceful” schtick, and then said that our right arms were getting lighter and lighter and rising up above our heads. I was disappointed that my right arm just sat there. Needless to say, I wasn’t chosen. I believe there are Scientologists who find themselves in that same boat, and those are the ones who don’t last long.

    It’s obvious that if auditing is a form of hypnotism (and I do believe Hubbard intended it to induce suggestible states, if not full-blown hypnosis, particularly with the quotes Jon referenced about taking advantage of them), just as with stage hypnotism some people are more susceptible to it than others. In spite of wanting to be hypnotized, my inherently untrusting nature wouldn’t allow me to make myself that vulnerable to anyone, especially a stranger.

    I cannot fathom why Scientologists are willing to hand themselves over to any other human being so completely, especially when they know Hubbard taught the use of “black Dianetics”. Oh, he might have warned against it in the “technical” materials, but, hypocrite that he was, it was used under his watch on people such as Nancy Many. If you don’t believe he advocated the use of black Dianetcs, here it is in his own voice (I think they just used a random video clip since the audio isn’t synched at all):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Pt29wConU

    I don’t know, maybe my growing up with firsthand knowledge that *nobody* can be fully trusted wasn’t such a bad thing.

    • villagedianne

      Scientology is a perfect paradigm of how to control people’s thinking and emotions make them believe all manner of lies and become fanatics. But most of us get bamboozled sometime or other. It does not have to be a religious cult. Not to make light of the abuses in Scientology, but the biggest lies come from media, politics, and government. Being a Scientology watcher is useful because it can provide insight into how these types of cons work. Many wars have been started on a lie.

    • Unbelievable that your school used students to be hypnotized for entertainment purposes. I’m glad we’re beyond that now.

      • Bella Legosi

        Ah Sunny, we still have military recruiters come into high schools to recruit. It isn’t exactly the same, but I am of the belief that the military is in it’s own way a cult. They utilize many tools that cults do.
        What is sad is that these recruiters go to the high schools that are in the ghetto and recruit the most vulnerable of the student body. I am sure they go to the nice high schools in nice neighborhoods, but I have a suspicion that they don’t “love bomb” nearly as much, nor do they paint signing up for the service as a “get outta dodge, see the world, earn money for college” in the same light or color as they do in the poor schools.

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup, the military is a cult, but you get time off to see your family, and your contract only lasts for 2-4 years. The pay is far better than being a Scion, and while a direct order is meant to be obeyed immediately in wartime, there are safeguards against abuse. (Not all are effective, as is illustrated by the latest sex scandals). There is civilian oversight. Your thoughts and beliefs are your own. You’re not measured by some hoked up galvanometer.

          None of those are true In $cientology.

          • Bella Legosi

            Very true Kid. I was watching “Full Metal Jacket” the other day (for the millionth time) and thought that the military does employ a lot of tactics that cults do when they are indoctrinating their guys. My ex was basically beatdown by his commander while on mission for not giving the commander the anwser he liked, and when my ex went to get up the commander punched him down again. When my ex got back to his “base” he turned that commander in. Thankfully for my ex, this commander had done the same shit to 4 other guys (who didn’t say anything till my ex turned him in), so that commander was demoted, docked pay (which was retroed for a year, so he came out of it owing money) and sent back to the states.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oh, no wonder we have a crush on each other. It is all about “Full Metal Jacket”.
              One of the finest films ever!

            • Bella Legosi

              When I got recruited for Army Nat. Res. the recruiter asked me what I expected Basic to be like. I said, “Nothing short of Full Metal Jacket!” The recruiter laughed and said that Army basic isn’t as intense as Marines and that they could no longer talk like R. Lee did in the movie. I laughed and said, “Sure, but if that is what I expect then the for real Basic won’t be as bad.” He had to admit it was a good thought, to expect the worst. Thankfully I took the advice of my ex (the one who was in Iraq at the time) and sobered up and never went through with it.

            • Missionary Kid

              What you’re illustrating is some of the checks and balances that are in place in the military. They don’t always work, but at least they’re there.

              The purpose of boot camp is to mold a civilian into a functional team member that may have to function in life or death situations when on duty. Conditioning, both physical and mental takes place. After boot camp, specialty training begins and there is also off-duty time.

              There are no checks and balances in clamland. It is a dictatorship that is run on fear, which managerially, makes it very inefficient.

              Supposedly, Co$’s mission is to clear the planet of evil. The intake, the routing, the classes, and the bridge are all supposedly in place to help each individual become a better, more effective person. In reality, the purpose is the enrichment of COB and the eternal fealty of those joining. There is no real off-duty time.

        • villagedianne

          Yes. A military recruiter is nothing more than a high-pressure salesman. Military training involves a lot of indoctrination. I wish I could say that the military takes good care of it’s wounded or disabled veterans but this is often not the case. More is needed, especially now that soldiers are coming back home after multiple deployments, often with PTSD. Is the military slowly becoming like Scientology, where when you can no longer contribute, you are “offloaded” with no support system?

        • q-bird
    • PreferToBeAnon2

      “In spite of wanting to be hypnotized, my inherently untrusting nature
      wouldn’t allow me to make myself that vulnerable to anyone,”

      Don’t forget, $cientology often targets those that are feeling vulnerable–those that are dealing with a crisis or upset of some kind. And, they make a big point of finding those “buttons” and turning one’s attention inward so as not to pay attention to the man behind the curtain. That slight of hand and shift of focus could make someone more susceptible.

      • richelieu jr

        Funny, for a second I thought you said that $cientology ‘often’ targets vulnerable people… I am pretty sure you meant ‘exclusively…

        $cientology often reminds me of the Steve Martin gag where he says he is a doctor specializing in ‘Diseases of the very Rich’….

        Or, to borrow from Richard Pryor, “$cientology is god’s way of telling that you’ve got too much money.”

    • richelieu jr

      I had a very similar experience @Observer, when I was about 12 or 13… You are right that you were doubtless not picked because you didn’t raise your arm..

      Still, as a practitioner of hypnosis for a couple of decades now, I feel you may (like most people) misunderstand hypnosis to some degree… You do not lose your will or go into a real ‘trance’ as most imagine it. One of the reasons stage hypnosis works so well is that hypnosis depends on ‘going along’. When people see it on stage and say, ‘Oh they’re just pretending to make a good show’, they aren’t far from the truth. They are there, capable of not going along, but for whatever reasons, the decode/allow themselves to play along. The fear of screwing up the show, letting people down, or not being a ‘star’ for a moment is a strong motivator that is not present with, say, a shrink…

      You decided not to play along- Therefore, you weren’t hypnotized.

      This is why the $cilons insisting what they do isn’t hypnosis is a total crock. They have the motivator of religion/intimidation and the person not want ting t ahve wasted their money. It is the exact same ‘willingness to go along’ that gets them to sign exagerrated statements about their ”wins’ and go on stage to accept applause and diplomas… This si why the CoS insists so strongly on these aspects– Peer pressure is extremely important…

      I could go on and on about this, but this si the point I wanted to make.

  • Truthiwant

    One last message about the photoshopping saga.

    I have studied all the photos and have come to the conclusion that the balloons are infact little flying saucers and the confetti are none other than Body Thetans. Completely genuine and no photoshopping!

    • Alright they are clearing the crowd in one fell shoop!

      • stillgrace

        Oh my,” one fell shoop”. Love it.

    • What level of OT do you have to buy to purge all those confetti thetans?

      • Truthiwant

        I think it’s OT XV and needs about 35 intensives at $60,000 per intensive. There is a 5% discount if you pre-pay now.

  • Ze Moo

    A Midland Michigan newspaper (or blog) has a NarCONon ‘press release’. Feel free to comment on it.

    http://www.ourmidland.com/prweb/article_a4f7f9d5-c97f-510a-924a-21c6bc080076.html

    I hope to see lots of pics and videos from the Anonymous counter picket to the CCHR at San Fransisco tomorrow. Three of my friends are attending the conference and they learned long ago about the CCHR.

    • Bella Legosi

      I still can not believe that Alexander was in the “care” of the head of CCHR and they allowed methadone into their home and allowed someone of their own “faith” to take it.
      That in itself speaks VOLUMES as to how they viewed Alex and about their own “religion”. When I spoke to the guy I did about Alex, when I mentioned methadone, that is when he walked off. There has to be some in the “church” who sees this deadly hypocrisy.

      • Sidney18511

        there has to be lots of doubters that are still in. If they could only do some research on the interwebs they would leave in droves!

        • Bella Legosi

          I think you are right about that. But that goes back to my point about coming to terms with believing in the crazy.

          Eric said during his RockCenter interview, something to the effect of, “Nobody likes to say they were in a cult.” He has a very good point there and it is that point that I believe that keeps people in and towing the party line, so to speak.

          And I have to say, Eric, if you are reading this, when I heard you say that, I felt so fucking bad that you could feel that way about yourself. It takes a lot for a person to come to that realization and even more to go on national TV and say it to the world. You shouldn’t feel embarassed at ALL. IMHO you and Luke deserve a lot of respect for waking up to this fraud that is $cientology and a lot more respect for speaking out against it, so that others may be warned of the destructive power of this cult and all it’s umbrella “good works” organizations.

    • 1subgenius

      Good for the site, it has a prominent disclaimer.

      • richelieu jr

        So much less sophisticated than the Atlantic’s little brush with ‘sponsored journalism’ (shiver)

    • Ze Moo

      I left 2 comments earlier today,now they are gone. I guess no one learned the ‘atlantic lesson.

    • DeElizabethan

      Page would not come up, gone.

      Yes, look forward to pic’s.

  • Do the current “GAT” versions of Science of Survival and other early LRH writings still contain the references to hypnotism? DM can always claim he has an LRH manuscript where these were crossed out.

  • Are_sics

    If it sleeps like a duck….
    Well, you know.

  • 0tessa

    Is there anybody who can get Miscavige out of his hypnotic trance? It’s about time.

    • Bella Legosi

      I have little hope that that man will ever wake up and realize just how fucked in the head he is. If he is mentally ill I really doubt getting him out of a trance would even work. That man needs years of therapy and since he doesn’t believe in such practices, I doubt he will ever come to the realization of just how crazy he is. Also, he has committed such awful violence to those he is supposed to be leading and it is those actions he would have to address and actually feel remorse for. That would mean he would have to believe he was wrong about a lot of shit he has done and said in life. I never see him doing that and copping to despicable actions in your past and feeling remorse for them as well are two very hard things to do, even when you are not under the influence of someone’s Kool Aid. I believe that is what keeps those who are in cults, in them. If you no longer believe in the crazy, you have to address your own craziness and actions and face them, most don’t and get to this point and usually turn back to the Kool Aid.
      Never underestimate the power of a person not wanting to admit their “crimes”. And never underestimate the power of faith. For it allows people to think and do the most reprehensible of actions.
      Disclaimer: I am not saying that everyone who has drank the Kool Aid (whatever flavor it is) goes out and commits despicable actions. Not every clam is Little Boots, just like not every priest is a child molester.

      • Sidney18511

        DM was nasty as a child and he grew up to be a nasty evil man who is drunk on power and money. Speaking of drinks would anyone care to join me in a bloody Mary? I make it with clamato juice and vodka. Really. It’s delish.

        • Bella Legosi

          He was also raised in Hubbard’s crap at an age where not only are kids primed to believe in religion and sponges, but also at an age where kids are naturally nasty and evil. Yes, I said it. Kids can be some mean, vicious little people and it does no child any good to learn at this age that they are not really children and shouldn’t be treated as such, but “big beings, inside little bodies” It only serves to create assholes, cult leaders, and serial killers. At the best it creates functional douche bags.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Yummy sounding!

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        “Also, he has committed such awful violence to those he is supposed to be
        leading and it is those actions he would have to address and actually
        feel remorse for.”

        Bingo Bella! This man has no empathy–a true sociopath. I don’t think any amount of therapy can help that. It’s one thing to admit an “oops, I fucked up” and deal with it, and quite another to change the very fabric of one’s being.

      • villagedianne

        “The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” is an evil philosophy in the hands of Scientologists because it can be used to justify anything. This sort of “ends justify the means” philosophy is the true road to hell, paved with good intentions.

    • Observer

      From what people in the know have said he’s so terrified of the real world that he’ll never willingly give up his tiny clam universe.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        I think he is a sociopathic personality.
        He can’t wake up.
        He see’s no need.

  • Bella Legosi

    There has to be a good reason as to why $cientology was banned in Australia and for the reasons it was banned. It has been said that the process in which an Auditor works the session, puts the pre-clear or clear in a “light hypnotic state”. Even light hypnosis can scramble someone’s brain.

    I was watching Mark Bunker’s video, “The OT Panel” a few weeks ago and one of the OT’s discussed this subject somewhat as he was describing going to a therapist. He puts it in words that should just be heard, instead of me transcribing it here. (Bella is still waking up and feels like she is getting sick 🙁 so she may not be on the ball, word wise or comment wise) This is a great piece of information and I am forever in debt to Bunker for making it and putting it out there. Of course I also have to thank the OT Panel itself, for sitting there and discussing all that they do, and in the most down to earth manner!
    http://youtu.be/3C5j63DsmnQ
    It is a long vid, but really worth it if you have the interest and time.

  • Observer

    Gah!

  • Observer

    Dear Captain Howdy:

    You can’t say I never gave you anything.

    Sincerely,
    Observer

    • sugarplumfairy

      Snake Oil salesman.. Perfect..

    • Captain Howdy

      THANK YOU! That’s perfect.

      Edit: I just noticed DM & TC. You’re so good it’s scary.

      • Observer

        You want to see scary? This is the full TC pic. haha!

        • Captain Howdy

          To quote SPF “AAAAGGGGH”

          • Observer

            Yep. That pretty much covers it. You can even see the food stuck in his teeth.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Gross!

            • Observer

              Yes he is!

            • Captain Howdy

              Zikes!

            • Observer

              That made me literally burst into laughter!

            • PreferToBeAnon2

              It’s officially cocktail hour now.

            • Captain Howdy

              Darn tootin’

            • BuryTheNuts2

              No shit!!!

            • Sandy

              Happy Hour in my family starts at 4! Lucky us

            • which is more then you can say for the folks working on his condo.

            • Captain Howdy

              D.M’s fantasy.

            • Observer

              I’ve been to that site … creepy!

          • sugarplumfairy

            Almost perfect.. Needs more ‘H..’ AAAAGGGGHHH!

        • Bella Legosi

          That face is the same exact face I have seen small children make when they take a crap! For serious!
          Sometimes I feel pity for Tom. I remember the interview he did back in the early 80’s where he discussed wanting to be a priest, and I think, “Wow, little did he know……..” But then I also remember that he is “Big Being #3”, best friends with Little Boots, and has the ablitity and freedom to have done his own research and thinking………yet still tows the line. That is when the pity dissolves and I scowl and flip him off.

          • ThetaBara

            That was his first big interview, with Rona Barrett. She was very insightful, and afterwards he went to his publicist and said that he never wanted her to interview him again.

          • sister wendy

            you know- another time for me when the pity sort of comes out is when I here Tom talk about his career. And keeps Scientology out of the conversation. If you’ve ever seen him on the New School lectures, you just get a completely different person…or at least you feel/sense another part of him that is just excited about his dreams and what he does, interested in helping young artists. Then I think about the other stuff, his responsibility, and get just as mad as you;)

            • Bella Legosi

              I have said before, you know something isnt right when you cant speak about your faith openly or honestly. I believe if Co$ did away with the secrecy and were tolorant, they wouldnt have half the trouble they get themselves into. But paranoia and secrecy are two hallmarks of cults. When cults trancend thier own biotry and secrecy is when they start looking, soundinng, and acting like a real religion

            • sister wendy

              Exactly Bella! I was thinking about this when I responded to you….we had to be quiet about being in Corp Sci when in public (at least all the artists I know) and it makes you feel split…like you can’t really be “in” life. Like you are always having to hold something back and be careful. I still feel that way a bit, cuz I’m not out officially….it’s horrid. And unhealthy….

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes it is very unhealthy. When it comes to religion or faith a person must feel free to at least discuss it or think critically about it. I believe that is the only way to grow if you are into any spirituality. If a person’s very core belief system encourages you not to speak freely or think critically, that system really isnt there for the faithful’s benefit, in my opinon. Religion requires faith amd it is very telling when even the religion distrusts the faith of their fellow flock to the point of sec checks, harrassment, or disconnection.

              Keep on keeping on Wendy. In the end the only one you really need approval from is yourself. Who knows your mind and soul better then yourself? People are capable of extraordinary things, but to avoid being in a belief system where your development isnt arrested or reduced to party lines is the real test of any faith. Good luck! Dont let us scare you away either. Keep reading and researching for yourself and form your own opinon!

            • sister wendy

              Thanks Bella:)

            • sister wendy

              Right now the only thing that is really scaring me is that picture above of Cruise!

        • SandiCorrena

          Scary!

        • richelieu jr

          It looks like he’s tearing ass on the world’s smallest invisible motorcycle!

        • richelieu jr

          I just saw TC tonight in TAPS… I used to love that film as a kid, and it’s a trip now to see all those guys when they were so young, TC (looks about 15, max!), Tim Hutton, Sean Penn…

    • media_lush

      a future bollocks main page pic….

      • Observer

        I am honored, sir!

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Best yet!

    • Is that really dm over to the right there, or was that shooped in too?

      • Observer

        I like to keep ’em guessing.

    • ParticleMom

      That is what he was born to do! He almost doesn’t look repulsive there.

  • PreferToBeAnon2

    Oh, if only we could do a collective,”Snap out of it!”

  • California

    I am here at Moscone, taking pix and sending them to Tony.

    After a very slow start (the UN Plaza was packed with Asian-American Heritage month events, the march commenced. I was on 4th Street and suddenly the SFPD closed off the streets and flagged all drivers to leave. I did and went around a long block to get back to 4th St. on the other side of Moscone Center. We were stuck for ~30 miniutes.

  • Bella Legosi

    K guys, Bella is getting sick 🙁 She will be lurkiing for the time being. Her brain really feels like it is on auto pilot!
    :X I leave you in the capable hands of fellow Bunkerites till she finds some Pepto and TheraFlu

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Oh noes! Hope you feel better soon!

      God knows I am feeling better!
      Mr. Nut’s is encouraging me to drink pink grapefruit martinis! (there is always an undercurrent of malice I might add!)
      Since I haven’t drank in a bit…the first one is giving me quite the little buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    • Captain Howdy

      Too much “Supernatural”. Get well soon.

      • Bella Legosi

        Oh there is NO SUCH THING Captain! How dare you imply such blasphamous ideas!

    • Ze Moo

      Did you read the Xenu papers?? Did you????? Try Hot Toddies, they don’t really help the cold or flu, then again after a couple of ounces of alcohol, you don’t care.

      http://allrecipes.com/recipe/hot-toddy/

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Oh oh…I have made this one!
        It is GREAT.
        Allrecipes rocks.
        There is a killer hot buttered rum in there somewhere too.

      • Bella Legosi

        lol you know after I typed my earlier comment, I did think of that! And yes! I have read them, several times, but I highly doubt that is the reason I am sick!

        Oh I my kingdom for a Hot Toddie at the moment. I just took some pepto and finally ate. Feeling a bit better, but I think I am gonna curl up on the couch and doze off to some TCM. I ended up taking a ride with some family to Washington and am waiting to go back home. But, since I was feeling a bit better I thought I would check in! I can’t quit ya guys lol

  • California

    Finally drove thru and ~ 230 people were on the center medium, chanting and surrounded by the SFPD.

    I parked and came back to give report. Although I saw 2 Anons over at the UN Plaza, I can see none now.

    Many people walking by, taking pix, shaking their heads.

    The chants? “Hey, hey APA, how many kids did you drug today?” And etc.

    • Observer

      Can’t wait to see your pics!

      • California

        I sent to Tony so his wizards will have to work w them and post them…

    • how many kids did they drag to the event?

      • California

        About half appear to be from infants to late teens.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          That is totally fucked up in the worst way!!!

    • John P.

      As I recall, there are protesters from many different groups at the APA each year. Just to avoid potential confusion, is the 220-230 figure you cite for all protesters or is it specifically for CCHR/Scientology ones? Just trying to understand what we’re looking at. Thanks for being there!

      • California

        John, the CCHR contingent are in CCHR t-shirts. They are a few w/o identifying t-shirts but marching round and round on the medium, so who knows their affiliation?

        A couple of people with other types of anti-psych, anti-psych drugs t-shirts.

        Unlike 2009, so far they are not handing out brochures or DVD’s

  • California

    John Allender is supposed to be here according to an ex but I have not seen him.

    Any questions?

    • Observer

      Are the Scilons getting much attention?

      • California

        They are right between the two main concourses where people have to walk but the attention they are getting is that they are sad and confused…. One of the demands is to change the DSM which has been underway for awhile. Another sign says for the governments to boycott the DSM billing system.

    • Captain Howdy

      Yes, please ask John to go jump off of the…

      Or to go swimming near the Farallon Islands when he’s having his period.

      • California

        There are big sharks there.

        • Captain Howdy

          I know

          • California
      • “I can teach you how to fly, now come over here and jump out this window.”

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    You are getting sleepy, very sleepy, oh so sleepy…

    You are now under RTC’s command, you hear only our voice…

    You are e-mailing us your credit card number…

    You are authorizing us to make a nonrefundable charge of $50,000 to the IAS…

    You feel very, very, very good about this… it is the best thing you have ever done in your life…

    When you awaken you will remember none of this…

    … when the bill comes you will feel incredible pleasure and will never ask for a refund ever…

    • Observer

      Good thing I did away with my credit cards a couple of years ago!

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        You have a sudden urge to get six credit cards…

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Oooh, I just got a nice shiny new credit card with a pretty nice limit.

          I think I will go spend it on shoes….maybe some burlwood wedges.

          • Ze Moo

            Burlwood has so many uses.

      • sister wendy

        that’s really impressive

    • Yawn: “I’m feeling a bit peckish.”

  • California

    They are being led by an African-American man in a red jacket (30’s-40’s) and a Caucasian brown-haired lady (30’s-40’s). Sending pix to Tony.

    • Observer

      Any sign of Chill E.B.? *snicker*

      • ThetaBara

        Uh, that’s WAS Chill EB!

        • California

          Think so, too, but I am not up on the rap stars.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            That is Chill’s pet project…so it is likely.

        • Observer

          Please tell me you’re not being facetious! I would LOVE to see pics of Chill leading clam cheers!

          • ThetaBara

            F’reals!
            Check out youtube.com /anonymoog later on for our video.

            • Observer

              Your leenk, she does not work …

            • ThetaBara

              Sorry, was on my shoe phone. Maybe better nao? But it is the anonymoog channel on the tube of you.

    • Captain Howdy

      Good luck, be careful, wish I was there.

  • California

    One of the shrinks just noted how young many of the marchers are and wondered if they were bussed in. From another country, no history with SCN or the activists. Just his observation.

  • California

    Stil about 220… Wonder what Jeff Quiros and other locals will say?

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Quite surprised there are that many! I wonder how many were paid to stand there with signs…

      • Observer

        I was thinking the same thing.

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          One thing seems to be the case: they haven’t drafted NOI bodies into these protests and openings.

          • California

            True. Chili B was just about the only African-Americn that I saw. Wonder what is goi g on? A spat ‘tween DM and NOI?

            • One can hope.

            • ThetaBara

              There was also that Reverend guy. But yeah, very white crowd. We had our own tail too!

            • California

              They left me alone today.

              But remember, on Monday, one of their “third agent people” in the SFUSD, Trish Bascom, was arrested, with 5 others, on 94 felony counts alone of embezzlement and mis-appropriation of $15,000,000.00 of SFUSD monies, from 2000-2010. (Over 200 counts altogether among the six.) More than $4M still missing. Investigation still continuing. If you know anything, please contact Matt Irvine, Sr. Investigative District Attorney.

              http://www.sfdistrictattorney.org/index.aspx?page=259

              Plus Trish had blocked us from stopping Narconon Drug Education in the SFUSD for 19 months, under orders from the late Superintendent Arlene Ackerman…. And then engaged in retaliatory behavior when Narconon was pulled in Aug. 2004 in the SFUSD ….. Not a nice lady.

              Serious stuff. I imagine Trish is singing like a bird right about now…..

              And I do not think that SF OSA folk want to bother me whatsoever, for the immediate future. They did some mean and vicious stuff, again working with a third agent (Jeff Quiros and Karen deLise’s speciality, apparently), earlier this year and received some consequences in return.

              You would think that they would learn……. But, they cannot as we have all learned. When Jeff and Karen finally flee and turn state’s evidence, they will have some stories to tell, methinks.

            • ThetaBara

              Of course they left you alone, you were driving by in a car!
              😛
              We saw Quiros, talking with the cops.
              The cops were great, BTW. One of them even winked at me.

            • California

              I was out of the car taking pix for about 2 hours up the street at the CCHR exhibit and then at the Moscone Concourse. In the past, they have followed me in a car afterward, nudged me & wanted ID other times. Yesterday was different. I did not see Quiros nor Allender but someone did get pix of John and Tony posted it today.

              It will be interesting to see CCHR’s crowd estimates…

              The SFPD was great, as usual.

      • California

        There are dedicated “marshals” with name tags who appear to. E real C HR people. It others who are more calm. Many of the shrinks commented on how staged it looked to them. And wondered if about half were paid, teen-agers having to go, etc.

        • John P.

          If there are teenagers press-ganged into the demonstration, would that be explained by the presence of a Delphian Academy type of private school nearby?

          • California

            I don’t know.

          • California

            Santa Clara and Campbell campuses are not in SF but well within driving distances, so maybe

  • California

    Time to go. I’ll be back tomorrow and see if they are still protesting.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Thanks for the reporting Cali!

    • California

      Just drove by (2:48 pm) and they are gone. Wonder if they only had a permit for 3 hours?

      • SP ‘Onage

        Thanks for the updates. Can’t wait to see the pics.

      • John P.

        Probably left because they had taken enough pictures to photoshop into thousands of people to put in the next fund-raising e-mail. I suspect they won’t be back tomorrow.

        • California

          I took 3 pix, from behind, of one of the marchers who was set up with a tripod and wide-angle lens and filming from the left concourse. He had an interesting t-shirt. I hope that Tony can use some of the pix.

  • Snippy_X

    Assuming auditing puts people into a highly suggestible state, I was wondering about “trigger” words. There is a YouTube where the person likens auditing to NLP (NLP is debunked by Wikipedia) and the common phrases start and end the session. The protest videos frequently show clams happily talking to protestors up until they use certain phrases, at which point they spontaneously shut down and become hostile. Ethical hypnosis always has an exit phrase, where control and full memory are returned to the individual. Does auditing have an exit routine and if so, what is the nature of it? It would be nice if there was a true “snap out of it” trigger phrase.

  • J.W.

    Can someone explain to me how “returning” works? I don’t understand the difference between recall and return. It sounds like the same thing? And yet he says it is “much different than remembering”.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Two factors: words and imagination.
      One fact: still no single Clear or OT.

    • “Returning” is SUPPOSED to mean you actually “Go back to the incident” vs “remembering” where you just think about it. What does it matter? Truthfully, except Ronny says so–it doesn’t! Per Talk therapy, there is often great benefits in remembering/recalling past incidents of pain, discussing them, stripping off upsets connected to them. But then, that’s “psych tech” and suppressive. REALLY? LOL!

      • J.W.

        Thanks Tory. How do you “go back to the incident” though? I’ve tried so many different ways and I just can’t do it. All I can do is remember. Do you think it’s even possible? Did you ever “go back to the incident”?

        • grundoon

          Maybe you are a natural clear.

  • California

    They are gone… 2:48 and probably earlier around 2:30.

    • ThetaBara

      Join us next time!

      • California

        Thank you. I will. And wasn’t it a glorious Saturday in SF?

  • Childhood is not a mental disorder, it’s an engram!

    • Observer

      Hahaha!

    • richelieu jr

      “Engram for Baby Layton!”

  • Jgg2012

    Sam Goldwyn once said “anyone who sees a psychiatrist should have his head examined.” (This was in the 50s, when the professions methods were less reliable). I wonder what he would think about hypnosis?

  • TonyOrtega

    To those who sent photos today from San Francisco, we thank you and we’ll post them tomorrow. We’re just now returning from a riotous Eurovision Song Contest watching party, which took up the entire afternoon. Romania, you were robbed.

    • richelieu jr

      Romania, Tony? I think not!
      What did you think of Ireland?
      France?

      • TonyOrtega

        Ireland’s entry had a lot of things going for it, including going last, which usually has at least some small advantage. I sympathize with the Irish Times bloggers who thought it deserved to finish in the top five — so for it to come dead last is really puzzling. (Yes, yes, Ireland has no bloc voting support, but still.) France went first, which is tough, and was unexciting. I mainly watch Eurovision SC for the cheese factor and fun, which is why I was pulling for the gay Romanian vampires and the Azerbaijani man-in-a-cube gimmick (and actually, a decent song). Denmark won with a completely pedestrian and forgettable tune, and I have no idea why Ukraine was getting so many votes. Anouk sung a lovely song for the Netherlands, but it wasn’t really Eurovision’s style. Greece was a fan favorite, and an ethnic tune often has a chance to do well. In the end, I was hoping that Azerbaijan could catch up to Denmark, but no luck. And I still think a 10-foot-tall gay Romanian vampire singing in falsetto is just about the best thing Eurovision ever comes up with. Until next year, I guess.

        • richelieu jr

          Good description, Tony!

          KItsch is indeed the key, and I was watching as well. I am at a total loss to explain Ireland’s dead last position (usually they do pretty darn well, bloc or no), but I was actually pulling for Azerbaijan, myself…
          I suppose I thought Vampires are just a bit too ‘in’ of late, but I take your point! My friends and I felt the show was a bit less garish and kitsch this year, and all the worse for it…

          • TonyOrtega

            My friend, who really knows the history, tells me that the use of semi-final rounds has cut down some of the outrageousness and tends to promote a little more professionalism. I understand why Sweden’s “Euphoria” won last year (even though it wasn’t my cup of tea), but Denmark’s entry this year really mystified me for all the support it got.

            • richelieu jr

              I agree,performance, costumes, presentation.. not terrible really, just… meh.
              There was so much better stuff, better ‘kitschy, hiarious’ better, and better ‘solid pop-songcraft, singing’ better…
              I certainly hope it doesn’t continue to get less outrageous– There’s a reason I watch this and not, say, ‘The Voice’ (and not just because it’ sonly on once a year!)
              I wonder sometimes if us EUropeans (I am French) see it differently than you people must…

            • TonyOrtega

              Very few Americans have even heard of it, even though it’s the biggest non-sporting televised event in the world. But even for those of us here who watch it, you have to appreciate a European feel for pop songs or you just won’t get it. Luckily, I’ve been indoctrinated by European friends.

            • richelieu jr

              No hypnosis necessary, of course! 😉

            • richelieu jr

              No hypnosis necessary, of course! 😉

            • Spackle Motion

              I completely get ‘it’ after spending a lot of time in France and Greece and trying to learn their languages by watching a lot of television.

              It’s like watching the Hindi Bollywood movies for the cheesy but toe-tapping songs and the weird non-touching dancing. You can’t stop watching it for some odd reason.

              Sort of like the Goddamned Pacman videos and his weird Tunak song/dance.

            • Espiando

              I can tell you why: for the last ten years, chicks that look like a hot mess have an inherent advantage (Turkey 2003, Ukraine 2004, Serbia 2007, Germany 2010, Sweden 2012, and this year). If it isn’t a chick who looks like a hot mess winning, it’s a guy who looks like a chick who’s a hot mess (Russia 2008, Norway 2009). Then there’s Lordi in 2006, who are simply a hot mess. The last normal-looking chick winner was Latvia 2002.

              We all know the Swedes are the masters of Eurovision-style music. Look at the last three years: guy who looks like chick who looks like hot mess, third place; chick who was a major hot mess, winner; guy who doesn’t look like chick, 17th. Then again, this year, the Swedes suffered due to some of the weirdest-ass voting at Melodifestivalen ever seen, when, somehow, all of the songs that would have done well at Eurovision were knocked out in the semi-finals.

              Yes, I love Eurovision.

            • sister wendy

              that was such a great description

          • Captain Howdy

            Kitsch is Life!

            • richelieu jr

              Where is kitsch on the tone scale?

              (Answer- 4000 points above OUVERTLY FABULOUS, baby!)

            • Sherbet

              Yikes! I watched the Romanian guy from Tony’s link. Rather, I tried to, but I’m shaking my head. Um, I’d rather watch ABBA, and I can’t stand ABBA.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Really? I found it to be like a train wreck …that I could not turn away from the gore.

            • Captain Howdy

              John Waters, “Schlock Value” when he goes to the “Care Bears” premiere dressed like a classic pedophile, just to gauge the reaction.

            • sister wendy

              between Blame and Hate;)

        • media_lush

          this is the best ‘Eurovision song ever: ‘http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jzYzVMcgWhg

          • Espiando

            I wondered how long it’d be for that one to pop up.

            As long as Pope Francis is making saints like there’s no tomorrow, any chance he can fit Dermot Morgan in there?

          • LOL! Pant pant….”We have to lose that Sax Solo” LOL!

        • BuryTheNuts2

          OH.MY.GOD.

          • sugarplumfairy

            I know.. The Bunker teaches me all kinds of new things..

        • sister wendy

          The Ukraine pays off people to vote for it….seriously. There is so much black market money on the Eurovision contest- it makes it even more funny.

    • DodoTheLaser

      From Eurovision 2005 – I used to hang out with these boys.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWQCgSB_lpE

      The band I was in was a lot heavier and not as interesting.

      Plus, Captain Howdy might like them too 🙂

  • In Honor of you both: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-l4khGQgoE Scientology Jon Attack and Tony Ortega (Link to this provided in comments/”Show More”) Thanks to you both! Happy Week-end to ALL 🙂 Tory/Magoo

    • TonyOrtega

      Thanks, Tory. Jon and I have been doing a weekly Saturday series about Scientology history that started in February, when the new edition of his book came out. We have some big things coming soon.

      • DodoTheLaser

        “We have some big things coming soon.”

        Romania and Moldova thank you! :):)

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fk680HkOpY

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Howdy, here’s some current Romania you’ll love:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV3xp5ZXSYA

          Aw damn, posted below. Sorry for the waste of time….

          • Now *that’s* what I call a crowd!! Am I the only one who thinks this guy makes a perfect Musical Dracula? What a voice! 🙂

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Imma have nightmares!

            • sister wendy

              it’s a spin off on a dracula production that does travel around Europe. Note the “hanging” blood drops;) as well as the dancers (representing blood flow) it’s such a weird concept and the musical was weird too…

        • Fantastic!!

          • DodoTheLaser

            :):)

      • I know—it’s just I finally had time to make a video about the new book. Hopefully soon I will have
        my own copy. I’m not nearly as speedy as you are, Tony. Ever in awe of ALL that you get done. Thank you, and thanks to Jon, too. Best wishes to you both 🙂

    • Captain Howdy

      Merry Weekend to you to Tory!

      And due to all this Eurovison talk, I dedicate to you the Eurovision winning song that propelled Abba to world conquest. This is actually dedicated more to D.M, but what the heck.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj_9CiNkkn4

      • TonyOrtega

        Yes, of course, that’s an all-timer. Last year, I put together (with the help of some people who really know the history) a top-ten of all time…

        http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/05/top_10_eurovision_song_contest_winners.php?page=2

        • Captain Howdy

          Thanks for the link..I think.

          • DodoTheLaser

            (Laughing to myself violently… LOL!)

            • Ok, I’ll bite: What are you laughing to yourself violently about, DodoTheLaser? Share!!

            • DodoTheLaser

              Just that I’m into different kind of music, so as Captain/his comment…
              Even ABBA sucked in that video lameathon, and I do like some ABBA.

              It was a trick question, wasn’t it Tory?!

              I’m a fool. 🙂

            • Bella Legosi

              Really?!? ABBA? Me too. My mom HATES them with a passion tho, gives me the evil eye when she sees me singing it and says, “You’re not my daughter!”

              🙂

            • DodoTheLaser

              Hahaha! Yeah, Slayer, ABBA, Rammstein, Lisa Gerard, etc., go figure us!

              I think it’s very fucking cool though. 🙂

              There are some really cool techno remixes of Abba (SOS) and yes – Roxette:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJLAcNsGbQs

              Play them to your Mom and catch her getting carried away 🙂

            • Bella Legosi

              Thank you for the links my good man! I shall use them well and wisely. Payback for all the craptastic Christian ear torture she has subjected me to over the years.

        • Excellent, Tony! Thanks 🙂

      • Thank you, Captain Howdy! Love the link, too 🙂

    • DodoTheLaser

      Love this video, Tory!
      Happy weekend to you too, lady
      and enjoy them new purple softies!

      • Thank you, DodoTheLaser 🙂 Don’t cha love the purple softies? They’re sooo nice! 🙂
        I’m ever amazed at how simple things can bring joy into my life. I wish the same
        for you all, too. I remind myself: Don’t miss your LIFE caught up in deathly nothingness.

        • DodoTheLaser

          ^^^ Brilliant post, Tory! 🙂

  • DodoTheLaser

    This whole subject reminds me a time when I just joined staff in scientology mission, back in 1994 and we set up this Dianetics seminar in the office building. About 40 people showed up. We started with the standard Dianetics video. After the video was over, one lady said she is a psychiatrist/psychologist and that we all should be careful, because the video and the tech shown is very suggestive and possibly hypnotic. My senior advised everyone to stay away from “crazy lady”. Hmm, yeah… Live and learn.

    • sugarplumfairy

      So glad you and yours are out and safe, Dodo..

      • DodoTheLaser

        Thank you, dear Fairy! We too!

  • Mary_McConnell

    So glad Jon Atack’s “Never believe a hypnotist” article is discussed and linked here

    http://home.snafu.de/tilman/j/hypnosis.html

    It is one of his best articles, ever. It should be read and star-rate checked out by all scientologists, lol

  • Madora Pennington

    This article about hypnotism in Scientology was very eye-opening. When my husband and I stopped participating, it was in large part due to the bizarre behavior of Scientologists who obviously were in a hypnotic trance – there were just such annoying people, but we couldn’t understand why. This was not everyone in Scientology. Only, I’d say 5-10% of the people i met. I think it wears off, too, but by then the person has probably gone OT and a new set of problems!

    I looked up everyone I could remember that I did auditor training with. Most, like almost everyone who does Scientology, quit for one reason or another, and never did anything else in the cult. It was hard to keep going because the staff are so mean and difficult.

    Only two people I studied with continued on to OT7 and OT8. Amazingly, these two I briefly audited on simple grades stuff while a student, and are THE ONLY TWO people I ever saw exhibiting the eye-closing, eye-fluttering stuff Jon Atack describes here.

    There you go! It takes being hypnotized to keep going in Scientology, because it really is so stupid.