SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

How Does Scientology’s Cosmology Really Work? Historian Jon Atack Has a Theory

cosmology-clockworkJon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and on Saturdays he’s helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

This week, Jon, we wanted your thoughts on the whole schmear.

L. Ron Hubbard’s ideas about the human mind and the physical universe really don’t comport with what science tells us about how the world works. But how does Hubbard’s worldview still continue to work for some people?

JON: Explaining the cosmology of Scientology for A Piece of Blue Sky was a struggle.

In his Data Series, Hubbard tells us that it is vital to determine the relative importance of information, but he did not apply this to his “science of the mind.” Because Scientology is additive, and nothing that Hubbard has said can be deleted, and because the relative importance of ideas is never clearly stated, there is no simple statement of cosmology in the vast forest of words considered “scriptural” by believers.

After far too many years thinking about this subject, I conclude that the simple most important notion in Scientology, and its best explanation, resides in the drastic redefinition of a single word: reality.

Hubbard tells us that reality is “agreement.” The universe entire is a construct, which extrudes from the thinking of the spiritual beings within it. It is a consensus. A mad person, Hubbard said, simply has a different “reality,” because they no longer accept the “agreed upon apparency” that is generally “mocked up” by we spiritual beings. This is confounded by the Scientologists use of the word reality to mean “what do you think?” As in “what’s your reality?”

ScientologyMythbusting“Reality is agreement.” This comes awful close to saying that reality is a trance. A group of people can share an emotional state, precisely because of their agreement. It happens in every shouting crowd. At any good concert or sporting bout; in every gang, in every military unit. When in a herd, we tend to share emotional states. We also tend to give over control of our emotions. So, we know that groups can go into sympathetic agreement. Is Scientology simply an agreement? Do Scientologists develop reactive minds, become hostile when rightly suspected (because of “missed withholds”) and grow body thetans to conform to “reality?” Do they “pull in” criticism because of their own “overts?” With this definition, a rend in the fabric of Scientology rips open, because if reality is “agreement,” then there is more than one possible reality, and it becomes necessary to choose which one you will belong to.

I belong to a “reality” that agrees with scientific reasoning and proof. I am skeptical of all and any claims, because I am well aware that even when they don’t mean to, people make things up. Indeed, in the right dream state, we can make anything up and believe it entirely. Every one of us has believed in something utterly impossible, when we were dreaming. I also know that people can carry the same spurious conviction from dreams, insisting that they ‘know’ what they actually only believe. I suspect that this “reality” is not compatible with Scientology’s “reality.”

There are many well-documented examples of mass sociogenic illness, where hundreds of people may fall sick in exactly the same way, because of a psychological, rather than a physical event. In Chechnya, Khapta Akhmedova successfully treated over a hundred youngsters who were hospitalised because they were having fits. They believed that they had been poisoned by the Russians. Aldous Huxley documented the demented persecution of Urban Grandier in The Devils of Loudon — which Ken Russell transformed into his film, The Devils. Grandier was burned at the stake, because according to the “reality” of those dark days, he was a witch (or OT, if you prefer).

The idea that “reality is agreement” mistakes culture for, well, reality. The world will remain real whether I exist to perceive it or not. Hubbard even referred to Bishop Berkley’s conjecture as to whether the tree falls in the forest, if there is no one there to hear it, so he knew what he was up to. And don’t ever forget that: whether you believe or not, Hubbard knew what he was doing. But I rely upon his supposed scriptures to show what he believed, where believers rely upon the highs they’ve experienced from repetitive hypnotic “processes” or through the electrical pain relief of the e-meter (check TENS machines out, which, just like the e-meter pass a small current through the body, but to relieve pain, rather than to get you high — both are achieved by the release of endorphins). Again, my “reality” separates highs and bliss states from genuine insight. And the only insight in Scientology is “Ron was right.” You can never be his equal (you would be squirreling, if you tried to think for yourself, especially if your thought did not conform to the Scientology agreement). He is not simply the OT, but the OT-maker. The god-maker, who will likely transform within the next few decades into an immortal being, worshiped by Scientologists (the chief statistic that Hubbard had personally reported to him was how many minutes an audience applauded his photo. For real). Hopefully, by then, I will have “dropped my body,” so won’t be burned at the stake for suggesting that the statement “Truth is what is true for you” is silly. If it means, you feel the way you feel, that’s fine, but, as it stands, it means that any folly you choose to subscribe to is true.

THE BUNKER: And just for the record, although Hubbard said it a little differently in his brief essay titled “Personal Integrity” — “What is true for you is what you have observed for yourself, and when you lose that you have lost everything” — we do find that in the Admin Dictionary, under the heading “Truth,” you will find the definition “Truth is what is true for you.” (Though most people we know usually say it “What’s true is what is true for you.”)

JON: One day, my friend Mitch was talking to Marie-Sylvie, Captain Bill Robertson’s girlfriend, who told him that she was on a colour diet. She waxed lyrical about the benefits of this cleansing diet. Mitch, who was wiser than his years, said, “Can you use food colouring?” Scientology elaborates on a similar theme: what’s true for you is what Hubbard says is true. But much of what he said is untrue, whether because is factually untrue — that Mars and Venus are inhabited, for instance — or it flatly contradicts some other statement he made. Whether, for example, he was “crippled and blinded at the end of World War Two” or that at the end of July 1945, he went down to Hollywood and beat up three petty officers, so getting his disabling war wounds during the first days of August. Because Hubbard was too busy to redraft anything, and far more interested in telling tall tales than in veracity, the poor Scientologist must struggle through a welter of contradictions. I must say that I disagree with Ron Hubbard’s reality and choose instead the reality of the real world, where I have the freedom to disbelieve in whichever nonsense I choose.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on August 19, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

Share Button
  • Eivol Ekdal

    I am experiencing a drop in reality and beginning to feel antagonistic.

    • Krew13

      Maybe someone should write up a KR so you can have a sec check but if you show a F/N, they may suspect you of being an SP or PTS, in which case they’ll put you on an ethics cycle to make amends, for which you’ll have to pay thousands of dollars, and you’ll also be required to restart all your courses again and pay for them all over again to move up the bridge to achieve superpowers like Tom Cruise and John Travolta have.

      As for me, I’m going to stick to KFC. I follow Colonel Sanders tech.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        more coffee is my proven solution

        • Krew13

          If you buy it at a Sciloon coffee shop (do they have coffee shops inside the various Sciloon buildings?), they’ll probably charge you $15 for it.

          • Nevermore

            And then charge you separately for the hot water, milk and sugar to put in it…

          • WildaBeast

            If Scilons have coffee shops in the orgs, etc., it’s probably really bad coffee, too.
            Bad coffee makes me angry.

            • Krew13

              Angry? Maybe you need a FREE stress test. It’s FREE. Want to try the FREE stress test? It’s totally FREE. And once you’ve had the FREE stress test, you can pay $100,000 to take a course.

            • WildaBeast

              I LOL’d.
              One of the only good things I can think of about grinding poverty is that it makes Scientology totally uninterested in you…

            • junojones

              The only good thing about starbuck’s is that they raised awareness enough that now you can occasionally buy a decent coffee in the midwest.

              Before that, all the restaurants served the Farmer Brother’s swill. I used to dread ‘going home’ to Flyover, leaving my double shot drinks behind for a week or two…

              I bet the sea org drinks Farmer Bros. Cheapest food service coffee evah!

            • WildaBeast

              Farmer Brother’s? Hmmm, must not have that in Canada, because I’ve never heard of it. Praise be to Jeebus, we have Second Cup…and I make a MEAN French press 🙂

      • Bradley Greenwood

        Now with the boneless option!

      • Missionary Kid

        I won’t follow you. I’m a Pastafarian.

        • WhereIsSHE

          Ditto.
          rAmen

          • Missionary Kid

            rAmen. That was clever.

          • Robert Eckert

            May the Sauce be with you!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Yes, because joining scientology for the status is like joining the mafia for the sauce.

        • Couch_Incident
          • Missionary Kid

            Sad, huh?

          • Captain Howdy

            Russians love the extremes. They go from outlawing religion to making it a crime to mock religion.

        • sugarplumfairy

          I’m a HaagenDazsist.. We believe when you die, if your soul goes to heaven too fast, it’ll get a ferocious brain freeze..

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Thank you, SugarPlum! I’m a believer now.

          • Missionary Kid

            😉

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Mmmmmm. Pineapple coconut Haaden-Dazs.

      • L. C. Spencer

        KFC, KSW, it’s all the same, right? The Universe is One, my friend.

    • Eivol Ekdal

      I am trying to get Stuart Robbins to do a podcast about LRH’s pseudo astronomy…
      http://podcast.sjrdesign.net/

  • Krew13

    The cosmology is very easy to understand. Pay lots of money. Get brainwashed. Pay lots more money. Get more brainwashed. Pay even more money. Get even more brainwashed. Repeat until you die or leave the Sciloons.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Fucking with the concept of reality is the best start point to brainwash others. It really fucking is.

  • Bradley Greenwood

    No wonder DM hates us so much…we are monkeying with his reality. In the seventies we called it “harshing our mellow”.

    • Missionary Kid

      There was nothing mellow about LRH.

      • Bradley Greenwood

        Certainly not DM…

  • DodoTheLaser

    “the chief statistic that Hubbard had personally reported to him was how many minutes an audience applauded his photo. For real”

    If true – Holy. Fucking. Shit.

    “Because Hubbard was too busy to redraft anything, and far more interested in telling tall tales than in veracity, the poor Scientologist must struggle through a welter of contradictions. I must say that I disagree with Ron Hubbard’s reality and choose instead the reality of the real world, where I have the freedom to disbelieve in
    whichever nonsense I choose.”

    Amen. Thanks, Jon. Really.

    • Krew13

      “”the chief statistic that Hubbard had personally reported to him was how many minutes an audience applauded his photo. For real”

      Even Hitler wasn’t that batshit narcissistic.

      • ze moo

        At party speeches in the old Soviet Union, Joe Stalin had bells installed to signal when it was allowed for the crowd to stop applauding him. Woe unto those who stopped applauding too soon.

        • WildaBeast

          I love learning new factoids, but that one is just disturbing.

          • Robert Eckert

            People got into trouble for insufficient weeping when Kim Jong-il died.

            • WildaBeast

              Christ…I can’t cry when I’m really upset, let alone on command. I would be shot if I lived there 🙁

            • Robert Eckert
            • Robert Eckert

              And here’s the story about what happened if you wept insufficiently:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxMrq6YTgbQ

            • WildaBeast

              Good sweet holy Jesus Christ on a cracker…I just watched them both and really don’t have any more intelligent response than that. My mind has been officially blown.

            • Poison Ivy

              Thanks for these, Robert. Important reminder of what happens when totalism becomes statewide.

            • GlibWog

              Robert.. OMG Just watched both Videos.. That is just some heavy shit there.. Unbelievable. I have learned so much from you in such a short time I’ve been here..

            • Captain Howdy

              The last known photo of Kim Jong-il is him riding a supermarket escalator? How apropos.

              “If only he could ride it again” she cried

        • WhereIsSHE

          Don’t give the Dimwit Midget any ideas=(!

          • Missionary Kid

            That’s my 107th different nickname for DM

    • Once_Born

      “the chief statistic that Hubbard had personally reported to him was how many minutes an audience applauded his photo. For real.”

      I wonder whether this had as much to do with Hubbard monitoring audience credulity as his (undoubted) narcissism.

      On the 10th of August 1950 Hubbard demonstrated Dianetic therapy and the World’s first ‘Clear’ human to the general public at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. It was a calamity for Hubbard. The demonstrations failed comically. The audience heckled and many walked out.

      Hubbard learned his lesson, an never appeared before the general public again, confining himself to carefully selected groups of ‘true believers’.
      (Bare Faced Messiah pp 212 – 215 Russell Miller http://www.apologeticsindex.org/Bare%20Faced%20Messiah.pdf )

      Perhaps even Hubbard was sometimes afraid that his credibility would collapse again. Perhaps he felt that, if a crowd could be manipulated into a long ovation for a picture, they were unlikely to turn against him.

      • John P.

        Yes, it’s not surprising that Hubbard retreated to true believers only after the disaster in 1950. But what’s even more interesting is that Hubbard always lectured, and never took questions from even the most brainwashed and devoted of his followers. How could one possibly hope to “confront and shatter” the evil forces of suppression if one is too afraid to answer even a softball question from a loyal cultie? That still boggles my mind.

        • Once_Born

          Quite – all of the lectures that I have ever attended have had Q & A sessions which included proper argument.

          In contrast, a Hubbard {lecture} was designed to:
          > Pander to his vanity
          > Establish his dominance
          > {Teach} his students conformity and credulity.

          His recordings remind me of what Richard Feynman called ‘Cargo Cult Science’ ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science ) He went through the superficial motions of lecturing without having the slightest idea of what a lecture is really about – all bedside manner, no medicine.

          • Poison Ivy

            And a lot of crap pulled out of his ass.

            • GlibWog

              And Oiliness

          • Orglodyte

            How true! The Ideal Org program also reminds me of a cargo cult.

          • Missionary Kid

            As they say in Texas, “All hat, no cattle.”

        • ze moo

          Confucius…” Luo Fuze (emperor of china) confounded by the question of a dolt.”

          You can’t be the infallible great leader if you are also human and don’t know everything. Lrooon problem was control, control over himself and his faithful minions. He spent the rest of his life (from the 50’s on) figuring out how to control the monster he made.

        • Poison Ivy

          A question would imply the person asking it had an original thought.

  • Espiando

    It all starts with the Axioms. When Hubtard used that word to describe his bullshit “cognitions” about the nature of the universe, he set Scientology off on the path that led to KSW. Disagree with one of them, any one, and you had no place in Scientology and Ron’s Master Race. “Reality is agreement”, yeah. “Reality is agreement with the Axioms” is more accurate.

    Yes, in most philosophical systems (and I use that term loosely in this instance), there are certain fundamentals that, without them, makes the entire system not make sense. But when those fundamentals totally clash with experience, intuition, and logic, like the Axioms? Scientology actually needs those brainwashing materials like TRs in order for people to cope with the cognitive dissonance.

    If the Axioms were the first thing presented to would-be Scientologists, most people would run for the door immediately. No wonder they’re held back until the raw meat’s sufficiently tenderized.

  • Observer

    I’ll join the chorus of incredulity over the “… the chief statistic that Hubbard had personally reported to him was how many minutes an audience applauded his photo. For real.” L. Ron Hubbard: always more egotistical than you think.

    I wasn’t expecting to use this so soon, but it sure fits.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      My reality is Jefferson is Ted Danson. I prefer to follow bartenders. They will listen to my boring stories and petty problems and Agree with me all night long. And for just a few dollars, and in just a few hours, I float my boat. I may not see the face of some god, but it’s one of the many little hunks of heaven here on earth. I follow xeriscaping gardeners too and many other wise men.

      • Peter

        Anyone who doesn’t continue lifelong testing philosophies has given up on a very exciting and rewarding activity.

      • Candygram

        Awww … That reminds a bit of Harvey. I love that movie.

    • Poison Ivy

      Perfecto!

    • WildaBeast

      “Putting the HUB in HUBRIS”…God, that’s great!

    • ThetaBara

      You have to admit, he stole from the best. :-/

      • cicely neville

        I would put it that he stole the packaging of the best; the window dressing, you might say. He was so hopelessly shallow-minded he could never understand their message.

    • Jvm3

      Not to repeat yesterday’s thread, but what you have as Newton looks more like Stalin to me. You can vaguely see a mustache, and Newton is always depicted wearing a long white wig.

      • Robert Eckert

        There were some votes for it being Joseph Smith too.

        • Jvm3

          I’d buy that too. Anyways not trying to nitpick Obs. It was a gem of a find.

        • Observer

          Joseph Smith had a beard like Moses.

      • cicely neville

        And the Asian gentleman in the saffron robe (top left) couldn’t be Buddha, who was Indian. Confucius looks like Peter Sellers in “The Revenge of Fu Manchu” and I don’t think that’s Genghis Khan, who was not a religious leader or philosopher anyway, so what’s he doing there ? And let me tell you, he was far too practical and astute to be on a Sci poster !

        That Thing is offensive on SO MANY LEVELS.

        • Observer

          These are models, and since I doubt Hubbard could snap his fingers and come up with the correct nationalities at will, and since he also had no problem bending reality to fit what was expedient for him, I remain convinced it is Buddha. He’s also wearing the orange robes of a Buddhist monk.

          • Missionary Kid

            That’s kind of like Sallman’s portraits of Jesus that have him with brown hair.
            Edit: and highlights.

          • Robert Eckert

            There are many people who confuse Buddha with Hotei, the fat Chinese monk who has become a good luck symbol (rub the belly of a Hotei figurine if you are in need of money, goes the superstition), hence the common misconception that Buddha was fat (he was quite skinny); it does not help the confusion that Hotei was Buddhist, or that the Cantonese pronunciation of his name is more like Bo-da (although Buddha is Fo). Hubbard of course is the kind of person most likely to fall victim to confusion.

            • Observer

              Or create his own reality. I can’t help thinking of the Mythbusters episode where Jamie said, “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

              Speaking of being confused, I was confusing Joseph Smith with some bushy-bearded cult leader. He was indeed clean-shaven, though I strongly suspect not nearly as good-looking as Mormon art depicts him.

          • cicely neville

            Of course he thought it was Buddha. My, he thought so many things…

            • Observer

              So many wrong, terrible things …

        • WildaBeast

          Tell me about it…the preshooped version was up yesterday – well, it wasn’t done yet, and my computer did something weird so I saw it without the captions at first – and those faces made me feel ill. And the artwork, and the stereotypes! I don’t know if I want to laugh or cry.

      • Observer

        If it is Stalin, Hubbard was an even bigger fool than I take him for. The purpose of that hideous … thing … is to lure in and infer to potential readers of “What Is Scientology?” that the great religious, philosophical and scientific leaders of the past are benificently approving of Scientology and perhaps a little envious that none of them came up with it. Stalin was a genocidal monster.

        • Missionary Kid

          So was Mao. He’s responsible for more deaths, as I remember it, than any other person, including Hitler and Stalin. Most of those deaths were his own people because of his economic policies.

    • J. Swift

      An “appeal to authority” is a logical fallacy. In any event, I think you will have to agree with me that all of these ancient fellows would have been happier with NyQuil than Scientology:

      http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i68/sadhu77/NyQuil.png

      • GlibWog

        bawwwwwwwwwwhahahhahahaha Perfect J Swift..haha

  • i-Betty

    Jon is a genuine scholar. What a mind he has 🙂

    • WildaBeast

      He’s incisive. I like that word. I also like reading/interacting with people whom it describes. Good on them both – Tony and Jon I mean – the one for setting it all out, and the other for giving him a place to disseminate it swiftly to thousands. (I’d also like to thank the interwebs, for infrastructural necessity :p)

  • LongNeckGoose

    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” — Philip K. Dick, Valis

    • Couch_Incident

      “Reality bites… and doesn’t let go.”

      • Theo Sismanides

        Another one… I guess this blog is for laughs than real Understandings! (crappy definition)

        Reality bites until someone BITES harder and makes it vanish! (I guess that’s a better one, what do you think?)

    • Foxrenard

      “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” — Philip K. Dick, Valis

      Like the income taxes I have to pay? That’s harsh reality 🙂

      • ze moo

        Reality is for people who can’t take drugs.

        • WildaBeast

          You got some? Cause I looked at my bank statement this morning, and reality sucks, but drugs are unaffordable. Lol.

        • Jgg2012

          To Scientology, reality is whatever they want it to be, even if it is exactly opposite what they wanted it to be 2 months ago. Case in point–Leah Remini: here is what they say about her now

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2iZ7JSVPt0

          but 2 months ago she was touted as a successful Scientology celebrity

          • cicely neville

            Do they really think that stupid puerile video is going to impress anyone?

            • Robert Eckert

              What George said. It is a spoof (the same guys also did “Don’t Look for Shelly Miscavige, She’s Not Missing!” as well as “Help Will Smith”), although it is sad that it is hard to tell parodies of Scientology from real Scientology anymore (Poe’s law in action).

            • Poison Ivy

              Here’s another one for you @missionarykid:disqus: “Scientology: It Satirizes Itself”

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks P.I.. I just saw it. It’s added. I had the computer in sleep mode for a while, and Disqus went stupid. It’ll be on the list when you refresh.

            • cicely neville

              Well, they had me fooled. It is indeed hard for a simple bumpkin like myself to tell parody from the cult’s bloviations.

            • George Layton

              Yeah here was a link Tony gave on this blog a little over a week back leading to the Remini video.

              http://helpscientology.com/Home_Page.html

            • cicely neville

              Thanks

            • Jgg2012

              Yes, the Voice had a poll 1-2 years backon the best Scientology photo shoop, and the winner was a picture of the squirrel busters that wasn’t shooped at all!

          • Poison Ivy

            That is disgusting.

            • George Layton

              Wasn’t that a spoof by those two guys that did the “Help Will Smith” video?

            • Poison Ivy

              I hope it was satire. Though CO$ has done worse to its enemies.

            • Sandy

              I took it as satire

            • April Walsh

              I don’t know if it’s the same guys (The Good Liars). The humor wasn’t quite as subtle and clever. But yeah. Definitely a spoof, IMO

          • scnethics

            See Poe’s Law. David Miscavige does not have a YouTube account 🙂

            • Jgg2012

              How do you know?

            • scnethics

              Oh, I mean he’s got 50, but none of them use the name “David Miscavige” like the maker of this video did. Also, it’s too amateur – DM’s got some really talented AV folks. And, other clues – trust me – this video is satire.

            • Jgg2012

              btw, I just looked at whoistonyortega.com. What a crappy site! And it IS a Co$ site.

            • TonyOrtega

              And yet you provided a link. How thoughtful.

            • Jgg2012

              Yes, it makes them look stupid (and desperate, and sloppy)

          • sugarplumfairy

            Omg! That is soo evil! Is this really by co$? They can’t be that stupid..

            • Jgg2012

              “They can’t be that stupid” Oh, yes they can! Look at what they did with Lawrence Wright and Paul Haggis on their freedommag.org videos. Same thing!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Silly me.. Of course you’re right..

          • Candygram

            Omg! Did Leah dump Tom from Park n Rec?! That shit is hilarious. It almost seems like it was made to spoof Scientology. If that’s not the case, I think we indeed have confirmation that COS is a 15 year old boy with pimples, no date, no dictionary, no social skills, and absolutely NO game. Ha ha… Heh heh… Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

          • Theo Sismanides

            Exactly, this proves Reality can be a fake thing. It holds true as long as MANY PEOPLE AGREE TO SOMETHING. Get them to disagree and that Reality Vanishes.

            • Missionary Kid

              No. Leah didn’t change. Only $ciontology’s opinion of her changed.
              Edit: That’s not reality, it’s belief.

            • Theo Sismanides

              That’s what I am saying. Scientologists after she “renounced” the church had to agree with various policies, like that one that says (paraphrasing) “whoever leaves the church must have done bad things to the church” and then the Disconnection policy.

              If those people didn’t massively agree to the “fact” (pushed by the church) that “Leah is out-ethics” they wouldn’t have turned against her.

              If one LOOKED really what Leah says and whether it’s true or not it would be different. But people don’t LOOK usually, they just listen.

            • Missionary Kid

              It doesn’t matter if the people agree or not that the church declared her out ethics or not. Either they did or they didn’t. The opinion of people has no bearing on whether an event happens or not.

            • Theo Sismanides

              If many people disagreed openly (revolution) you would see that the opinion of the (many) people has a bearing on whether or not something finally is done in someway. The could have revoked that false accusation and the wrong order by management. it’s also a matter of Numbers but not always. Sometimes you see a smaller but dedicated group surpassing realities, like the legend of the 300 Spartans. I don’t know if they really were 300 but certainly they were less than the Persians.

            • Missionary Kid

              The 300 Spartans were also highly trained soldiers.

              $cientology cannot have disagreements internally because it is a cult, and cults can’t exist unless they have a unifying person and rituals, as well as regimentation.

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok!

            • Missionary Kid

              When I say $cientology can’t exist without regimentation, I also mean the Indies. I believe they will follow the pattern of all of the other indies. They last for a while, then fade away.

            • cicely neville

              Theo. You’re a Greek, and you think that Thermopolae is a legend?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Maybe the word legend is not right but the number 300 might not be true. I used the word legend and a wrong wording.

          • GlibWog

            Well.. Ya know it’s a spoof.. but that’s OK.. it’s getting the word out with the comments people have left…
            As someone said earlier..I think the Scn have given up on answering ..It is just futile.

            • Jgg2012

              I will assume its valid until Davey sues someone and walks into a courtroom ready to testify and answer questions.

        • Theo Sismanides

          Oh, that’s a good one! Cudos!

      • Jgg2012

        No, the taxes the Church of Scientology should be paying. Until they do pay them, we will be bugging the IRS and posting here. That is the reality, or, as the Church calls it, entheta.

      • Peter

        I think that perhaps Mr. Dick was not up to snuff with quantum physics. LOL

        • Couch_Incident

          “No area of physics stimulates more nonsense in the public arena than quantum mechanics…. For the record: Quantum mechanics does not deny the existence of objective reality. Nor does it imply that mere thoughts can change external events. Effects still require causes, so if you want to change the universe, you need to act on it.”
          Lawrence M. Krauss, Theoretical Physicist
          http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-year-of-living-dangerously

          • Jgg2012

            I knew of a network marketing company in the 90s that got 50,000 distributors using a laundry ball that cleaned clothes using “quantum physics” and structured water”. Guess what? There is no such thing.

        • Missionary Kid

          LRH totally misunderstood it and conflated it with his BS.

      • Theo Sismanides

        You really wouldn’t have to pay them if you didn’t endorse the System itself or if you could do something about it. I agree though, that’s Enforced Reality.

    • Sarcasmo

      Reality is what you can get away with – Robert Anton Wilson

    • Missionary Kid

      I’ve collected a lot of pithy sayings about $cientology today and added to the ones I already have. Here’s the total list. If you have one to add, reply here, and in a couple of hours I may or may not add them.

      Science is a good antidote for Scientology
      Cash trumps coherence in Scientology.” – Vance Woodward
      $cientology: Disassociated schizophrenia at a premium price.
      Scientology: McDonald’s service at Morton’s prices
      The only thing Scientology will ever clear is your pocketbook
      In scientology, the patients pay the master to create the phenomenon.
      In the real world, patients pay the doctors to make it stop.
      The big difference between the church of scientology and the mafia is the mafia actually go to church on Sunday.
      All of Scientology comes from four misunderstood words. Those words are “modern”, “science”, “mental health”, and “religion.”
      Joining Scientolgy for the psychological wins is like joining the mafia for the sauce.
      Joining scientology for the status is like joining the mafia for the sauce.
      Science is a good antidote for Scientology
      Scientology: the Theology of Finger-pointing.
      Scientology: We mishandle the truth.
      If a $cilon says she is alive, take a pulse. If she has one, she’s lying
      The $cientology symbol: The Double Cross
      Scnethics Corollary: The amount of lies told by $ciontology are inversely proportionate to the size of the group spoken to.
      Scientology…a River of Fear runs through it.
      If it isn’t fraud, it isn’t scientology.
      Scientology: where every day is like being in 7th grade again.
      Likely to amuse connoisseurs of human gullibility
      Risible magnum of snake oil
      Likely to amuse connoisseurs of human gullibility
      The type of cheese the Moon is made from
      Co$ has erotomania (stalking syndrome) It’s also called De Clerambault’s Syndrome.
      Scientology – getting it wrong since forever!
      Being in Co$ is the spiritual equivalent of doing crystal meth: brain drain
      What’s the coolest thing to do in Scientology? Leave.
      Scientologists suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect
      Scientology: As Wrong As Creationism, But In The Other Direction.
      If the Borg asimiliated the Ferengi you’d get $cientology.
      Rx for $cientology, Hang onto your wallet and run like hell.
      Dear Scientologists, you were lied to. The whole time.
      Scientology, It’s always worse than you think.
      Scientology, it’s not only worse than you think, it’s worse than you can imagine!
      In Scientology, it’s always your fault.
      Religion is free; Scientology is neither
      The further up you go, the worse it gets. – Jason Beghe
      If what you’re doing doesn’t work, do MORE of it.
      What was useful wasn’t new. What was new wasn’t useful
      If there’s one thing I’ve learned about Scientology, it’s that they never learn.
      In a Scientology building. EVERY room is a fundraising room.
      Being a clam requires full burial in the church’s sand pit.
      First, you pay $cientology for its reality. Next you pay while they adjust it.
      If you’re in Scientology buying Humanitarian status, you’re not a humanitarian.
      The only insight in Scientogy is “Ron is right.”

      • Jgg2012

        “What was useful wasn’t new. What was new wasn’t useful” This is my favorite: I keep hearing scibots (especially the celebs) saying “it really helped me”. What helped was counseling you could have gotten elsewhere for half the price (except its free for celebs). That is not helping, that’s fraud.

        • Robert Eckert

          A reworking of “Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good.” (attributed to Samuel Johnson)

        • Peter

          You have no idea at all what someone did or could have done using something else. Perhaps *that* auditor was the perfect counselor for that person. You’re simply guessing at what *might* have been.

          • coonellie

            And how do you feel about that?

            • Peter

              About what?

          • Jgg2012

            We think that way, but to a scientologist (a) what went right happened because of scientology, and (b) what went wrong had nothing to do with scientology, and thus (c) scientology undoubtedly changed my life for the better.

            • Once_Born

              This approach has worked for millennia.

              If you want to make it rain, or curse your enemy the shaman tells you to perform the appropriate ritual.

              If it rains, or your enemy dies, the shaman’s ‘supernatural powers’ take the credit. If nothing happens, it’s your fault – you made a mistake in the ritual. Give the man another chicken and try again.

              The only person who wins either way is the shaman.

      • GlibWog

        OOOOOOOOOh ya got a Downie MK… You must have hit a nerve.. Atta Boy

        • Missionary Kid

          OHBOYOHBOYOHBOYOHBOY! A Downie! Thank Xenu!

          • Poison Ivy

            The dreaded Down-Arrow Tech at work!

        • cicely neville

          i especially enjoyed the buried clams; never saw that one before.
          Congrats on the downer, my dear!

      • HelluvaHoax!

        Great list!

        Another one contributed by noted theologian L. Ron Hoaxard. . .

        “Scientology: The rapturous celebration of the win of a mental illness called OT.”

      • LongNeckGoose

        Scientologists: The worst friends money can buy.

        • Missionary Kid

          I added it.

      • Exterrier

        Mish, you are well on the way to compiling a Dictionary of terms and phrases for Bunkerites. You can’t understand Scientology without the Tech Dictionary, and I sure hope you have one. If I can find mine I could send it to you. There are some great phrases people have come up with, as well as all the fancy terms for the Dwarfenfeurer. It would be good for new initiates to link to when they come on board the Bunker.

        • Missionary Kid

          Let’s call mine the Illegitimate Compendium of $cientology Epithets.

          For the legitimate terms, I have http://www.xenu.net/archive/dictionary/ and http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1048137.ece

          • Poison Ivy

            MK, I think you’re on your way to competing with Hubbard for new phrases invented!

            • Missionary Kid

              Let’s just say it’s phrases stolen. Those are all from postings of Bunkerites. I’ve modified a few and added very few of my own.

            • Exterrier

              Yes indeed. I love the sort of catalogue work you have taken on, saving and listing all these clever Bunkerese terms that have come up. If we get enough going we could start our own little cult. Operating SP levels three, four five and such. Tony could be Source. There may be some money in this after all.

            • GlibWog

              hahahhahahha Marty’s group already think that we are Tony’s little Cult over here..

            • Exterrier

              Ha. But his rates are cheaper than Marty’s, and man, those Pharma checks in the mail really offset all my donations.

            • GlibWog

              hahahhaa Funny… Going to bed.. I’m wondering what Tony has for us later on? hmmmmm This is better than Reality TV any day!

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m not doing the work. Everyone else is. All I have is a spreadsheet program that I’m putting all the marvelous wit of the Bunkerites on it.

            • GlibWog

              Kid… Yawwwwwwn going to bed.. but did you get the one about putting the Hub in Hubris? That was good.. Night..

            • Missionary Kid

              That went on my LRH list.

            • Exterrier

              So glad you are, Mish. This is the brightest and most creative blog I have ever seen. And it is self policing. Tony created a monster here, and I hope he gets as much of a kick and inspiration out of it as I think he does. Your compilations may be useful to him one day. His very thorough brand of investigative reporting sets a high tone, and is actually rather rare these days.

            • Missionary Kid

              I don’t think my compilations are useful to Tony because they’re just lists that come out of people’s imagination. Tony deals in facts, thank goodness. I imagine he tolerates my lists, but they’re here more for our amusement.

              Eventually, I would like to create a Bunker Hall of Fame, but I’m still learning a lot of the names of the people who’ve sacrificed for either their freedom or just to get away from Co$.

              I’ve been having an internal debate whether to include Marty and Mike, but I believe I’ll include them, because of what they’ve had to deal with as a result of fair game, as well as the upset their being “out” has caused DM.

              I dislike the fact that they haven’t taken the full step of leaving LRH behind, but on the other hand, I believe it’s made leaving easier for the true believers.

            • Exterrier

              I joke about indies, because they cling to the Ron delusion; and as Jon points out, Ron is the one who deliberately built in all the Orwellian Stalinist mindf__k awfulness that has done so much harm. So no one will be truly recovered until they can open their eyes fully. But the delusion and even mind formatting are so deep, and even feed off of such high hopes and idealism and even fear, that a halfway house system is essential to facillitate people departing without breaking down completely into grief, despair and even suicide in some cases. I place Mike on your list first, as he has been particularly cooperative in undoing some of the damage he did, or participated in, and at great cost, and he is not living off delivering “services” as far as I know. And Marty for not hiding and crumbling, but for fighting back, I suppose. They help tremendously, actually. Our clever and brilliant discussion group here is not at all the ideal “first stop” for departing scilons, except for those who already fully grasp the scam, and have been planning to leave for quite a while. Tory’s youtube channel is maybe the best for the truly disaffected, with the indie movement being the right stopover for the still brainwashed true believers, as you say.

            • Missionary Kid

              I have the same feelings. Eventually, as the Co$ slowly collapses, the Indies will provide a soft landing. They will exist for quite a while, but, eventually because they don’t have the rigid enforcement machine of Co$, people will drift away as the great majority of them realize that there’s other ways of handling their problems.

              I don’t believe that they will get any significant recruits from anywhere but people leaving Co$. Now, they are doing well because there are so many people leaving. When that dries up, they will slowly dry up, too.

            • John P.

              MK, I am not sure that the indies are doing all that well, even though people appear to be leaving the cult at a faster rate these days. I think many of the people bailing out are the “under the radar” crowd, who don’t really believe in the power of the “tech” any longer, but are merely staying in to avoid the social or economic costs of disconnection. They’re jumping as the number of people leaving is enough to make them suspect they will still have a business or a family the day after they walk out.

              The “Indie 500” list now contains about 468 names. Around a year ago, Mark Shreffler publicly announced he is “out” on Marty Rathbun’s blog, and he was #435. So if they’ve gained less than 35 names willing to identify themselves publicly as “indies” when the number of members who bailed from the cult in that time is perhaps 1,500 to 2,000 people, then they’re not exactly picking up a significant share of those leaving. Sure, the actual number of people joining the “Indies” is more than just the number posting on the “500 list” but it’s probably not that much larger.

              When I originally started getting involved in anti-Scn stuff around two years ago, I had thought that the Indies could become a fairly potent force in short order. That appears not to be happening, due to both organizational/political squabbles and due to a decreasing incidence of interest in having anything to do with Scientology from recent departures.

            • Jgg2012

              I was just thinking–how are Indies diferent from Freezoners? Is there a difference?

            • John P.

              There are differences between Indies and FZ that apparently they feel are important enough to engage in a lot of hissing and spitting over. Steve Hall of the Indies has been particularly vocal against the Freezone. I haven’t done a lot of work in trying to understand the differences; I think the issues would sound to us like a Judean People’s Front versus People’s Front of Judea sort of acrimonious hair-splitting session.

            • Jgg2012

              Maybe it has to do with LRH infallibility and his credit for the tech–FZs seem to think LRH was fallible and David Mayo deserves some credit, but to the rest of us it’s an unimportant distinction.

            • Missionary Kid

              Exactly, and there’s no pope to rule on who is right, because each has their own pope.

            • Theo Sismanides

              The Freezoners were established by Captain Bill Robertson, once the right hand of LRH. He left the church in late 80’s, came to Europe and established the Freezone. If you google his name you can find data about him. He said that he was in telepathic communication with LRH and he built the Bridge up to OT 45.

              Many Freezone orgs exist in Europe and Russia and the US, of course, and they are doing fine. They keep a low profile and concentrate on delivery of the Tech.

            • Missionary Kid

              I believe you’re right. I had no idea about the size of the Indie movement.

              I believe they only exist because people want to reconnect with the familiar ideas in $cientology. Unfortunately for them, they can only exist online because the geographical distribution of people leaving is vast.

              Also, because the “tech” is so outmoded and they don’t have much, if any charisma, they will attract few from the wog world.

              Indies will start to rebuild their lives in the wog world because they will establish relationships that are not controlled and the majority will drift away.

            • Missionary Kid

              I should have said they are doing as well as they ever will.

            • Jgg2012

              On a general point, I think Co$ crumbling, while inevitable, will be gradual. Remember that it took Wollersheim 15 years to collect; likewise, judgment creditors will need time to attach and auction off all that real estate. The sign on Big Blue isn’t going down for a while; i’d say a generation or so.

            • Theo Sismanides

              John P. I see you are following things closely and that’s good. it’s true Indies have problems and actually many ex-es don’t want to have anything to do with organising and such stuff. They have this traumatic experience from the past.

              Many of them also do not know much or don’t care to get involved with administrative things, a thing that makes me wonder sometimes.

              In any case you are right on your observations. Probably a lot of them just want to get on with their lives, many practice Scientology in their areas and quite some deliver auditing.

              I am more of an admin person and believe it or not I like PR, lol.

              I have my good time here and I am surprised there is more people ready to contribute to this blog than Indies on another. this blog makes 1.000 comments on each subject!! This is great.

              Still, I believe with some persistence things can change. Thanks for your observations and comments.

            • Jgg2012

              Let’s call it “inventingness.”

      • Lady Squash

        Scientology: Clearing the planet one bank account at a time.

        • Missionary Kid

          Added.

    • Peter

      “Hubbard tells us that reality is “agreement.” The universe entire is a
      construct, which extrudes from the thinking of the spiritual beings
      within it.”

      This is 4000 year old information from the Bhagavad Gita and many other books, philosphies and seers down through the ages. Hubbard adopted and altered it. But it’s hardly “news”. And, after all, the question still remains, “What came BEFORE the Big Bang?” LOL If you wish to disbelieve something simply because you can’t “see it” or it doesn’t lend itself to Newtonian proofs, that is hardly proof in itself.

      • Candygram

        Must you use the unimaginative LOL in every comment?

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lol..

        • Robert Eckert

          He’s also fond of the phrase “Newtonian proof”: there isn’t any particular kind of “proof” called a “Newtonian” proof so I don’t know what he means by it, but I suspect it is a Hubbardesque attempt to sound sciency.

          • Exterrier

            hoo…… a new term. “sciency”. Belongs in the Underground Tech Dictionary. In fact, I think Missionary Kid or even Tony should start building an Underground Bunker Tech Dictionary that we can purchase for readingthe Blog.

            • Theo Sismanides

              There you go! As boring as it can be for some, it can lead you to some Understandings since you are all going to have Agreement (Reality) that blah means blah.

          • Poison Ivy

            It makes him sound like he’s brilliantly read on the history of scientific thought. He may have read Newton, and other fathers of modern science, but only just enough to lift a few ideas from them.

      • kemist

        I’m wondering how a question like “What came before the Big Bang?” can have any meaningful point when the Big Bang is supposed to be the beginning of spacetime itself. It’s a bit like asking what light tastes like. It’s what is known in science circles as “not even wrong”. It’s a category error that poses as deep thinking.

        The entire new age field is chock full of these pseudo-sciencey deepities dreamed up by people unable to complete an intro to calculus class who harp on about quantum physics, and in some cases even have the nerve to say physicists “stole” the term from *them*.

        If Hubbard had started his money grubbing cult in more recent time, I’m betting his writing would be full of references about “quantum” and “vibrations”.

        • Couch_Incident

          From “How to spot quantum quackery,” Interview of Lawrence M. Krauss, Theoretical Physicist: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/how-spot-quantum-quackery-6C10403763

          …But when you hear about quantum mechanics and consciousness, you should assume the author is a crackpot unless proven otherwise. Moreover, assume that they want your money. …
          Q: Why do you think that people have seized upon this? I guess it’s a sign that quantum physics is entering the mainstream…
          A: Well, yeah, the point is that there have been these new-age desires for lots of things to make the world better: crystals, energy vortices… People latch onto their dreams, and they always try to match them to reality. Quantum mechanics is a replacement for the phrase “anything goes.” Once anything goes, you can have anything you want. So what better thing to have than something that gives you everything you want? The point is, with quantum mechanics, everything doesn’t go. On certain scales, for certain times, in certain regions, everything goes and strange things happen. But it’s not true for the universe at large.
          Often, people who are trying to sell whatever it is they’re trying to sell try to justify it on the basis of science. Everyone knows quantum mechanics is weird, so why not use that to justify it? … I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people say, “Oh, I love quantum mechanics because I’m really into meditation, or I love the spiritual benefits that it brings me.” But quantum mechanics, for better or worse, doesn’t bring any more spiritual benefits than gravity does.

          • Missionary Kid

            Amen.

          • cicely neville

            And thank you too, CI. this ought to be printed on every cover of ‘The Secret’, like the warning label on cigarettes.

          • Candygram

            That’s awesome and somehow validating. My 3-year-old often cites “gravity” as a reason for something… Even if it’s in answer to why he doesn’t want to put on his socks. I guess I started it. When something fell and broke one time, he asked why that happened. I was in a hurry and said “gravity.”

        • cicely neville

          Thank you sir. ‘Deepities’ – lovely word !

      • Once_Born

        A 4,000 year-old belief is not the same thing as 4,000 year-old information. Information requires evidence. Belief does not.

        Consider this offer – since you believe in things that you can’t see, I would like to sell you an excellent invisible used car. I can’t give you a test drive, because its existence ‘doesn’t lend itself to proof’.

        Seriously – there are an infinite number of claims (including Hubbard’s thetans and my invisible car) that can’t be tested. Since they can’t be tested, they all have an equal claim to truth – that is, they are all infinitely unlikely.

        The fact that Hubbard’s ideas were copied from very old writings hardly recommend them – the ideas that the Earth is at the centre of the universe, and flat have been around for a long time too.

        • cicely neville

          I think Peter was just pointing out that Lubbard stole ideas from ancient literature and regurgitated them as his. i’m surprised he never claimed he’d been Shakespeare in another life.

          • Once_Born

            “Peter was just pointing out that Lubbard stole ideas from ancient literature”…. I see that, and agree with him.

            I was interested in Peter’s statement, “If you wish to disbelieve something simply because you can’t “see it” or it doesn’t lend itself to Newtonian proofs, that is hardly proof in itself”. I interpret this to mean, ‘you can’t objectively test this proposition, so you can’t say it’s not true’. I agree with that too.

            However, there is no reason to think that a thing is true just because you can’t prove it to be false. If you claim something is true, it is up to you to provide evidence for your case – but Peter has himself argued that it is not possible to provide evidence in this case.

            It seems, this “4,000 year-old information” can’t be shown to be wrong or right. It’s a story, that is of no use at all in the real world.

            Peter – I respect what you post here – and I show that respect by reading it carefully, then questioning and arguing with it.

            Cisely – everyone knows that Hubbard did not write Shakespeare’s plays – it was, of course, a Klingon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF0k4qV1I1Y

            • cicely neville

              Of course it was, how silly of me. I wasted all that time in college taking English Lit. when I should have been watching Star Trek!

        • Jgg2012

          There is a school of philosophy that says that there IS no reality outside of what you see and believe (as opposed to there being one you perceive through reason or experience). Hubbard was also influenced by Theosophy, which said that you can learn reality through practicing religion (not reason or experience), and early followers of Scientology were Theosophists.

          • Once_Born

            Let’s assume that,

            “[…] there IS no reality outside of what you see and believe”. and,
            “[…] you can learn reality through practising religion (not reason or experience)

            How do you know which religion to choose? There are many religions, and their doctrines are often totally incompatible. They can’t all be true.

            Since there is no objective way of testing the claims of any given religion (and you can’t use “reason or experience” either) you can never know which doctrine is true and which is false.

            Consequently, this approach can’t tell you anything reliable about reality, either.

            • Jgg2012

              I don’t think #1 and #2 are consistent. In other words, if “what’s true is what’s true for you” and you think Scientology is bogus, then Scientology makes no sense. As to #2, Theosophy stated that practicing Theosophy (which meant making its founder rich) was the only way to sense truth (sorta like being clear), and one of the “truths” you sense is that Theosophy is right, its founder is brilliant, etc. For a Scientologist, one of the “truths” they realize is that LRH is infallible.

            • cicely neville

              Thank you for taking on Mme. Blavatsky, to whom lubbard owed a great deal.

      • kemist

        **** WARNING : PEDANTRY ALERT ****

        Also, there is no such thing as “Newtonian proof”.

        Proof is a mathematical concept that deals with logical deduction from accepted premises.

        Science deals with *evidence*, not proof. Said evidence is used to design a tentative model of reality – it is always temporary and always open to change, but on presentation of satisfying new evidence only (human feelings, wishes and personal experiences are *not* evidence). Scientists as a rule are very aware of this and of the fact that the consensus model is the best approximation we have of reality, and not reality itself.

        Science is a kind of asymptotic yearning toward knowledge, where you get closer and closer to reality without actually reaching it. And it’s the best we have – the tools you’re using right now, tools that religion failed to develop in its thousands of years of existence but which modern science has developed in a matter of centuries, are testament to that.

    • Candygram

      Valis is one of my favorite books!!!

    • Theo Sismanides

      And how about Martin Luther who stopped believing in the Roman Catholic Church? Didn’t it go away? (Crappy Definition)

      • Robert Eckert

        It did not go away, as you know perfectly well.

      • cicely neville

        Theo: you seem to have an MU here.
        To believe that something exists is not the same as to believe IN it, that is, to have faith or trust in it. The Catholic Church did not disappear because Luther ‘postulated’ its unreality. It still exists and many people still BELIEVE IN its teachings. Luther tried to reform it, disagreed with more and more of its theology, and was finally forced out. He could no longer believe IN it.

        The World Bank exists both as an idea and physical presence (buildings, employees, etc.) It is not going to go away just because you choose to believe it is not part of your reality. However, you might feel that you cannot believe IN it, because you do not trust it, you have no confidence in what it does; you think it is a bad thing. Well, I agree with you, I don’t like it either, but we can postulate all day long and it will still be there.

        If you said “My love is true to me” , you would not be saying that she is real to you; you would be saying that she is faithful to you.

        English has many shades of meaning, like many shades of a color. It’s tricky that way.

        • Theo Sismanides

          Cicely, when I said the Roman Catholic church “went away” I meant for the German people and especially those who followed Luther. They created their own church. That’s what I meant. I know the Catholic church didn’t disappear just because someone postulated its unreality. But for them it did go away.

          Same is on the World Bank. Reality is what the majority and if you want the stronger one postulates and puts there. Of course it does exist and it can manipulate whole nations around the world.

          From the Tech Dictionary:

          “REALITY, 1. is, here on earth, agreement as to what is. This does not prevent

          barriers or time from being formidably real. It does not mean either that space,

          energy or time are illusions. It is as one knows it is.”

          So, our agreement against the World Bank, does not prevent it from being formidably real. I am not saying this. I am saying that had we enough power to get more and more to agree and get a stronger reality even over the World Bank (that means you would have to create a certain movement against it and it would have to be backed up not just by postulates but by actions too) then we might be able to do away with it.

          Look at the Internet now. It’s forming a new reality. People who agree on certain things write on blogs, express their opinions, protest etc. They are creating some universe of their own.

          As to “my love is true to me” I know what it means. I didn’t quite get why you are saying this. Though I got many invalidations by people here about my english, I do know that I can get the ideas behind the words. If I don’t understand the words I ask or look them up.

          • cicely neville

            As my Tennessee grandmother would say, you are a huckleberry to my persimmon.
            The Tech Dictionary will not be able to help you with that, I’m afraid.

  • Krew13

    Reading the thread yesterday regarding the lulzy flyers and emails Sciloons get every day asking/demanding donations, I had to wonder – when Nancy Cartwright, Her Royal Governor, gets these emails, does she automatically and immediately donate a chunk of dough as a Pavlovian response? Given that she so easily and casually gave $10m – twice her annual salary – to them, I can imagine her unthinkingly responding to every single flyer/email with a new donation, albeit not for $10m.

    I wonder, because I have some extra bills to pay and I’d like to send her an email posing as a Sciloon and asking for donations to my personal account.

    I kid, of course!! I’d never resort to underhand, criminal behaviour. That would make me no better than the Sciloons. But maaan, you can imagine how much they love her. She’s like an ATM. Anytime they need an extra few thousand to pay for Miscmidget’s gourmet meals, all they have to do is send Her Royal Governor an email. And unlike a regular ATM, she doesn’t charge for cash withdrawals. All withdrawals from the Nancy Cartwright ATM are free of charge.

    • ThetaBara

      It will be interesting to see what happens when the Simpsons finally folds. Of course she’ll get residuals forever, but will she be able to keep up with the demands of her Scilon overlords?

  • DodoTheLaser

    [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/2lwx2sy.jpg[/IMG]
    But you can, my friend.

    • KJP in Portland

      First-Degree Sheister!

      • KJP in Portland

        Smug-ass look on his face…”I am God!”. No, you were God awful…

        • KJP in Portland

          Nice leisure suit there, L. Can Hubcap!

    • WildaBeast

      Ugh, this is totally before coffee, so God knows if this statement will be coherent, but…just looking at that smug grin on his face is making my head hurt. It’s like all my “this person is full of shit” alarms have just gone off at such high volume that there’s no room in my skull for anything but the klaxons.

      But at the same time, again looking at that smug grin, I can see just how charismatic the man must have been. ‘You are full of shit but looking at your face I can imagine how easy it was for you to pull people in”.
      I’m having a moment of utter compassion for all the exes here – not that I don’t usually have that, only that it doesn’t usually hit me like a sledgehammer in the gut. No matter how little sense his ‘reality’ makes in reality (as it were), it DOES make sense that people followed it – and still do </3. And that's just so horrifyingly, heartbreakingly awful. I have so much respect and love (in a weird sense of the word, since I've interacted with relatively few of you) for all the exes, especially those here, because digging yourselves out from under the garbage dump's worth of shit and snake oil (eeewww!) purveyed by this smug incarnation of evil has got to be one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do (with the possible exception of dealing with the fallout, for those who have loved ones still in). I'll just repeat that: so much respect. So much love. You guys are the poster-folks for the strength and resilience of humankind.

      Also…does anyone else get sudden weird urges to punch their laptop screen when they see pics of this asshole?

      • Illinoisian

        An opinion from someone who met him: James Randi on Hubbard. (Click at 1:48 because everything before that is hard to hear due to ambient sound.)

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj-w09kpQcY

        The statement at the center (2:32 on the clip) of this account of how Randi knew Hubbard is: “In my opinion, Hubbard was an evil man and a willfully evil man. He knew what he was doing.”

        • Poison Ivy

          At the beginning of that clip, is that a Scientologist trying to convince Randi to try it? My God! How insane is that?

          • Captain Howdy

            Yea, while he’s trying to eat..and then Mark tells him to shove off.

            • Poison Ivy

              Rude. No thought for another’s feelings, comfort, HUNGER, anything.

              Typical.

          • Illinoisian

            The title at the beginning of the clip states “. . . James Randi is urged to read Dianetics.” It’s very hard to hear the conversation amid the room noise. Randi is amazing tolerant of the person off camera, who is making it pretty much impossible for him to focus on what looks like the dessert course. I think the person is, as you say, a Scientologist with (yes, wildly unrealistic) dreams of being the one who succeeds in getting an endorsement of Dianetics out of James Randi, famous world class skeptic. (Reminds me of the scene in “Laura” in which she interrupts Waldo Lydecker’s lunch to ask him to endorse a pen. But in the movie, Waldo Lydecker — unlike James Randi — is very sarcastic and rude.)

        • ThetaBara

          I completely agree: he knew exactly what he was doing.

          • cicely neville

            i’ve got this clip memorized. Listen to the emphasis; ‘WILLFULLY evil!” Wow.

      • ThetaBara

        I have nothing but love for the exes, and the still-ins. No, it doesn’t extend to Miss Cabbage, or his henchmonkeys like Allender, but I understand that these folks were sold a bill of goods, and that everything good in them was manipulated by the cult. I even have sympathy for the indies (although it is akin to swapping heroin for methadone – it still isn’t good for you, but it isn’t quite as bad either). It’s a wonderful thing to see folks emerge from the cult and find themselves!

        • WildaBeast

          The heroin-for-methadone analogy is a good one. I just hope it isn’t a perfect analogy. Methadone keeps you well and is affordable, but in the end is more addictive than heroin and you’re sick for longer coming off it (if you choose to stop using it…we have a lot of lifetime methadone users in Canada; this isn’t so much true in the US as I understand it). Still, you have a much more functional life on methadone than you do on heroin, so…yeah, it’s usually a positive end result.

          Ooookay. Totally off-topic now, stopping typing.

      • cicely neville

        All the time. Punch it, I mean. Or vomit.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Just because it rings so many bells:

    “I MUST SAY THAT I DISAGREE WITH Ron Hubbard’s reality AND CHOOSE INSTEAD THE REALITY OF THE REAL WORLD..”

    Chinese school that scientology PR machine.

  • BosonStark

    Good post by Jon. Reality is agreement for clams. For years, this system of control could be preserved because Hubbard’s documented history as a liar, discussion of the beliefs and practices in Scientology, and the actual experiences of other Scientologists could be hidden and remain irrelevant.

    The Internet put a hole in that agreement which for clams will ultimately be a hole in their reality, like that cat peeking through the ceiling of the Super Power building.

    • Espiando

      “Ceiling Cat is watching you enturbulate.” Works for me.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Yay, Internet! The only thing that remains to be seen is how long scientological self delusion can stand up to an aggressive and relentless reality..

  • Observer

    Hmm, today is World Humanitarian Day. I wonder how all those fine “humanitarians” in the “Church” of Scientology (looking at you, Kathie Heard) are planning to observe it. On the other hand, maybe they’ll snub it because there isn’t a single mention of the Greatest Humanitarian the World Has Ever Known, L. Ron Hubbard.

    http://www.worldhumanitarianday.org/

    • They’ll likely ignore it. After all those famous “supposed” humanitarians didn’t foolishly funnel their life savings into Ideal Orgs & the IAS so they’re just degraded beings and theetie-weetie dilettantes compared to “real” humanitarians.

      • WildaBeast

        In Scientology, you can be a humanitarian…’with honors’! That doesn’t happen in the wog world…{so Scientology must be offering more!}

        • Missionary Kid

          With $cientology, you’re basically buying your award, but getting nothing.

          • Observer

            And if you’re in Scientology buying Humanitarian status, you’re not a humanitarian.

            • Missionary Kid

              Perfect.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. yep..

    • George Layton

      Does their reality even contain it?

    • Bradley Greenwood

      Hoping for some mass tragedy, to whip-out their yellow windbreakers, so they can “touch” people.

  • DodoTheLaser

    The mind of a truly dedicated scientologist resembles Rubik’s Cube, where it all can make sense, on demand.
    Except, it’s Hubbard’s Cube.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Nailed It! Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause!

    • BananaSplits8

      Reading today’s post left me speechless. It ties in nicely with something the young philosophy major said in the youtube video posted yesterday in the comments.

      When she visited an org, she asked what was scientology’s mission, its general doctrine. No one could
      answer her because it’s not easy to credibly say “Hubbard told us what to believe and we make sh*t up to prove him right. Wishful thinking IS evidence. Ka-pow!”

      • Poison Ivy

        Ha ha!

      • ThetaBara

        I missed that. Could you please re-post?

  • Racnad

    While I was growing up, if I commented on someone who was insane, held foolish beliefs or I believed was very wrong about something, my mother would gently remind me “That is that person’s reality” as if their reality – the way they viewed the world – was always equally valid as my reality. The idea that people were free to pick & choose their own realities seemed to appeal to her ideals of freedom and self-determination. But while Scientologists are fond of quoting “What’s true for you is true for you,” try asking “But what if what is true for you was not true for L. Ron Hubbard?” I have, and it seems to get puzzled looks, like they can’t quite comprehend the question. This is because according to their reality – the “Reality” taught by Scientology – disagreement with LRH could only result from misunderstood words, PTS, (both of which can be “handled” by the Tech) or the person is an SP who deep inside actually knows LRH is right but is actively trying to suppress anyone from getting better. Therefore the goal is to bring the word “into agreement with Scientology.” That’s the double-think of Scientology. Reality is subjective – what people decide for themselves what their reality is – but the Reality of Scientology (and anything else part of LRH’s Reality) is a super-Reality above the subjective realities of run-of-the-mill thetans. That is why it is an ethics crime to question it.

    • BosonStark

      When asked about Kepler’s observation of the elliptical orbits of planets, Newton took a few months and invented differential calculus to account for it.

      When Hubbard read an article about the bathysphere, he instantly came up with the idea that he was the first person to do oceanographic research in one and told a colleague this.

      Newton was a science and math genius and Hubbard was a genius of bullshit and contradiction in the service of extracting money from vulnerable people — that was his reality. So when a clam agrees with the totality of Hubbard crap that becomes part of their reality too.

      Your question, “But what if what is true for you was not true for L. Ron Hubbard?” gets to the crux of the matter, a contradiction. Then we get to the Indies, who want to worship Hubbard partly because he was so full of flaws and little of his “tech” worked in his own life. What?

      • Satansthetan

        I think that’s the crux of it, how little of the tech worked for Hubbard! Toothless, demented and diseased anyone?

        • WildaBeast

          I know SMOKING speed kills your teeth something fierce; I wonder if eating it does the same thing?

          • Satansthetan

            Ha! Perhaps it was crushing clams between those choppers that did it….

          • Captain Howdy

            Speed, coke destroys calcium. Even opiates, which are less destructive, retard the growth of calcium in your system . I fractured my leg at work in ’92 and it took over a year to heal, and the doctors couldn’t understand why — I was doing a couple of grams of dope a day. I happened to be reading one of my drug reference books one day. and it explained why.

            • WildaBeast

              I am so grateful that my years of smoking crack left me with *reparable* damage. That is to say, I still have all my own teeth even if there are fillings in a lot more of them now. As for heroin, I have to say I never noticed the effects the way I did with crack and coke, but I can easily believe it. Methadone absolutely fucks your teeth and bones…THAT I noticed!

      • ThetaBara

        How do you see the indies worshipping the flaws? I see them as trying to convince themselves that it wasn’t all for naught. Which, of course, it was… but changing one’s entire worldview is a process. They didn’t get indoctrinated in a day. Getting free also takes time.

  • Missionary Kid

    Instead of quibbling about the details of LRH wordwank, Jon Atak steps back and looks at the philosophical mechanism underlying it, and he absolutely nails it.

  • villagedianne

    Reality as Agreement is a basic tenet of many new age and spiritual philosophies. Hubbard redefined nothing when he stated this. He took existing ideas and presented them as his own, as usual. Then he added his own evil twist, as he always did.
    Again, there is absolutely nothing original about the idea of the nature of reality as agreement. Hubbard was just putting these ideas out there decades before they became more well known to a wider public. A lot of New Age processes are about designing one’s reality. The book “The Secret” was all about this. Many new age processes focus on changing our underlying, and usually pessimistic, assumptions about life.
    You may or may not agree with this philosophy about life and the nature of reality. But it only becomes evil when it is used to exploit and manipulate people. It is especially evil when used to promulgate an us v. them scenario. Hubbard’s philosophy is a sick melange of new age philosophy and fascism.

    • Missionary Kid

      I would say that reality as agreement predates Hubbard by millenia. In a way, it is the basis of all movements, as well as societies and religions.

      He did, however, use it to exploit and manipulate people, like many egoistical despots.

    • Captain Howdy

      “Many new age processes focus on changing our underlying, and usually pessimistic, assumptions about life.”

      Yes, they try to change our “pessimistic” i.e realistic, logical attitudes about existence into more palatable Shirley MacLaine endorsed jars of Fluff.

      • sugarplumfairy

        mmmmmm.. I want some.. With peanut butter..

        • Espiando

          I am certain that in the reality postulated by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the fluffernutter is given a particular place of honor. Jah Pastafari!

        • Captain Howdy

          999999!

          • sugarplumfairy

            Meanie..

        • Eivol Ekdal

          smooth or crunchy?

      • villagedianne

        As I said, you may or may not agree with this philosophy about reality. I’m not asking anyone to agree with this way of perceiving reality. Whether or not Shirley MacLaine endorsed “fluff”, she did not turn it into an evil fascistic movement that broke up families, practiced fair game, and on and on.

        • Phil McKraken

          What you say about Shirley MacLaine is reasonable. Most people don’t apply their magical thinking to the vital activities in life, and thus don’t do too much damage. When it comes to putting food on the table, people tend to operate within the zone of reality.

          But then there are totalitarian cults. In these instances, even regular day-to-day life is subjected to the other way of doing things.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        …sudden urge for a fluffernutter and a glass of cold milk

      • Once_Born

        “Many new age processes focus on changing our underlying, and usually pessimistic, assumptions about life.”

        So does cognitive behavioural therapy. For example, it ca (for example) treat depression by working to improve attitudes that are unrealistically pessimistic and self defeating. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy ).

        • WildaBeast

          You know the other awesome thing about CBT? Once you’ve been having it for a while, you get to a point where you’re able to apply it to yourself in day-to-day situations, which a) lessens your dependence on the therapist b) causes you to become less of a mess as life goes on and c) is FREE!
          I have a doctor who is an addictions specialist and cognitive behaviour therapist. That woman has done me so much good over the years…

          • Once_Born

            I have a friend who participated in research into the effectiveness of CBT in the treatment of depression. The therapy did him great good. The research indicated that this was not a fluke – that (for the right people) CBT is actually more effective than medication.

            Your comment that CBT, “lessens your dependence on the therapist” neatly illustrates the difference between a guru (like Hubbard) and a doctor. The guru wants to keep you dependent. For ever. The doctor wants you to (ultimately) achieve independence.

            All the best with your journey.

            • WildaBeast

              Thank you! 🙂

    • Poison Ivy

      Jon Atak is on to something when he talks about the perceived shared reality of Groupthink. When deprived of a full panoply of information, we tend to see the world the way our communities/families see it. In that sense, reality CAN be agreement…hence the Emperor’s New Clothes fable.
      Note that in that fable – as in Scientology – the Groupthink is totally in error. Our favorite fable about Groupthink is about how dangerous and stupid it can be.

      That should tell you something right there.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Reality is. Scientology neither.

    Religion is free. Scientology neither.

    Love, help, care and wisdom is still free.

  • Hiram

    Jon Atack has offered a lot of good material. But I don’t think this is among that body of work. Its all about the individuals own reality of what it true. Its pretty simple. The problem with the church of scientology is that it does not allow the person to have that truth. It attempts to restrict him from observing, ie the ban on looking at the internet. Its only their truth that is real. If I am sitting in a field of what most would agree is green grass, and I think its purple, its purple for me. That’s my reality and that’s whats true for me. I may change my reality at some point. but until I do, its purple. What is so hard to understand. The emphasis is placed on the persons own perception, That is his or her reality. Whether or not everyone else things its purple, or science can prove its purple, is beside the point. The fact that the church hoists that’s lofty and altruistic quote to point to is ironic given their attempts to control a persons reality. Hubbards material is largely sound, like it or not. He and his organization just didn’t practice them. There are a lot of things to criticize when it comes to scientology and Hubbard, I just don’t think this is one of them. That is what is true for me and so that’s my reality.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      ” I also know that people can carry the same spurious conviction from dreams, insisting that they ‘know’ what they actually only believe. ” -Jon Atack

      ^^^You might “believe” the grass is purple, but the rest of us “know” it is green.
      Hubbard’s material is not largely sound. It is ridiculous and often contradictory plagiarisms of the works of various people who had a lot more sense than Hubbard.
      He couldn’t even put the stolen material into a logical concept.

      You need to word clear “perception” and “reality”.

      • Foxrenard

        “You might “believe” the grass is purple, but the rest of us “know” it is green.”

        When I was experiencing LSD, I swear I saw the grass purple 🙂

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Lol………I saw some cool stuff on LSD too.

          • KJP in Portland

            1978…just one time…I remember the power wires buzzing like mad and the pink fog that enveloped everything, ha!

            • Snuzey

              Heh heh! The Orb at Glastonbury in 1993-ish… amazing until I realised that EVERYONE, thats around 120,000 people were walking in the opposite direction to me. By God that was a long night!

            • stillgrace

              Just for you, BTN, Fox and KJP and the Captain, too:

            • WhereIsSHE

              Those PUPILS are just about the right size!

              (But can someone explain why Hubtard was so anti-LSD??! I’m up for all the snark in the world on this one, but I seriously would like an honest explanation if there is one out there.)

            • ThetaBara

              To quote P-Funk: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

            • John P.

              As near as I can figure, Hubbard was against LSD even more so than he was against other illegal drugs because of the prevailing quack theory at the time that “drug residue” accumulated in the body and could somehow be released cause a flashback or other toxic effect. Of course, this view is ludicrous today, but it was known to be false even at the time that Hubbard enshrined it as “Scripture” in Scientology.

              A little common sense would explain exactly why the “drug residue” idea is gibberish. Drugs work precisely because they are highly reactive substances, binding to receptors more aggressively than the body’s normal chemistry. given that fact, it is easy to figure out that a substance that reacts quickly also breaks down quickly in the body. Countless pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies have created a robust body of science that enables researchers to build extremely accurate models for the uptake and subsequent metabolism of drugs. In all models, drugs eventually go to zero as they are cleared from the body. I actually happen to have taken a couple of graduate level classes in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics in the last couple of years from some of the top experts in the field, so I can speak with a certain amount of authority about the depth of the science involved in drug modeling.

              it is ludicrous to believe that there is some magic mechanism whereby drugs ingested are metabolized up to a certain point, but that metabolism then stops and drugs are absorbed by fatty tissues (incidentally, Hubbard believes that fat is just a substance and specifically denies the existence of fat cells, which were known at the time that he wrote this nonsense in the 1950s). Then, once the body achieves this miracle of suspending metabolism of drugs and causing all unused drugs to be absorbed by fat, then at some point the body is able to command millions of fat cells to release simultaneously the drugs that they are holding onto, with enough synchronization of the process that a mind altering level of the drug suddenly enters the bloodstream. To say that this flies in the face of any sort of common sense is a massive understatement.

              I would say that Hubbard’s particular obsession with LSD comes from the culture of the times, where a very small amount of LSD causes an extraordinarily rich psychedelic experience, and where there were anecdotal reports of flashbacks, which were probably psychological effects of having taken a lot of LSD, rather than physical or pharmacokinetic effects of LSD remaining in the bloodstream.

            • WildaBeast

              There used to be (about ten years ago) a popular claim that Ecstasy left residual amounts of intoxicants in your spinal fluid, and if you took enough E and then cracked your back real good, all the E would get released into your bloodstream *somehow* and hit you like a ton of bricks for a free high.
              Always thought it was a crock. Nice to see some confirmation of that with the science behind it.

            • Missionary Kid

              Damn, John, I was just going to schedule my first purif now your post has led me to cancel my appointment.

            • ThetaBara

              Of course it was. Just like those flashbacks they’ve been promising me all of these years!
              The ecstasy/spinal fluid rumor seems to have come from a medical study where they drew spinal fluid. It’s total bullshit, of course.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Actually, it stemmed from his motley crew of inexperienced and trippin’ fake sailor crew on the ships and all the disasters that were going on.There are many stories on The Apollo Thread over at ESMB and Shooting Stars thread there too, plus some on OCMB. The stories are hilarious, but of course, the incidents and accidents were very dangerous to all.

              Naturally, Hubbard couldn’t admit that his mere presence and commands to just make it all go right couldn’t replace education, experience and skills, as well as the fact they were have starved, sunburned, sleep deprived, half crazed from the Hubbard woo. So it just had to be the LSD Only.

              It’s just like his fake Super Powers. He dreamt that up because of disasters and accidents and plunging income which occured since the sea org staff had been put on renovations with no experience or skills, no sleep, nourishment, mentally beaten down. So he came up with reasons why…staff couldn’t learn, were out ethics, blah blah.

            • BananaSplits8

              “I’m up for all the snark in the world on this one”

              He bad-tripped on how he really was.

              Shrooms once, during a Stranglers concert. Lost a shoe.

          • Captain Howdy

            The few dozen times I took LSD or shrooms i never saw anything that wasn’t there, just distortions of what was already there. I’ve never talked to anyone who said they saw pink elephants or 6ft rabbits or anything that wasn’t there. I’ve never hallucinated kicking booze cold turkey either.

            • WildaBeast

              I used to see little rainbows rippling across my visual field. But other than that, yeah, just distortions.
              Of course, ever since I did acid, my night vision has gone all to hell, because I see a field of floating dots across anything I’m looking at when it’s dark out. 11 years since my last trip and they’re…still…there.
              On the other hand, I’ve decided they’re friendly, so it’s okay :p

            • Robert Eckert

              I saw the trees growing. The waving of the branches turned shimmery and I could tell which way the tree wanted to put out shoots next. I still see trees that way, their current state of growth just a still shot within the overall development.

            • WildaBeast

              That’s beautiful.

            • ThetaBara

              Seems like to get anything more than patterns, you have to take something like DMT (which makes acid seem like St Joseph’s Aspirin for Children). Or so they say. Google is, as always, your friend.

    • Phil McKraken

      Wherever you get the information that grass is purple, whether from Hubbard or the Internet, it’s still green, in reality. Whatever you think or whether or not you exist, grass reflects a particular spectrum of wavelengths of light. Perception is not reality.

      Jon has it right. The solipsistic foundations of Hubbard’s control mechanisms are a huge problem. It trains his adherents to set aside reality and join the delusional herd in agreement with his fantasy.

      • Ms. B. Haven

        I think you have it right here Phil. I have friends who are color blind. They would look at a field of green grass and ‘see’ it as a different color than most of us who are not color blind. They are aware of their condition and even though they would not ‘see’ green they would have enough sense to call it green.

        This can get pretty subtle and the subjective part comes in when looking at color swatches, for example. If I am going to paint the kitchen, I can say that I would prefer sunshine yellow over butter. Light still refracts in a certain way to produce the color that we agree to call these names, but the names aren’t real, they are just a mental construct that are put into place for convenience and marketing. This is the way ideas are used in scientology, except it is mostly for marketing. In fact it is ALL marketing, and enforced marketing at that.

      • stillgrace

        You are right. Grass reflects a particular frequency of light that is perceived as “green” by persons with “normal” (prevalent) arrangements of rods, cones and optic nerves in their eyes and brains. However, there are some people who have different arrangements of rods, cones, and optic nerves and they perceive the “green frequency” differently. The frequency of the “green” light never changes, but it can be perceived differently by different people (see picture below). There’s the numerical reality of the frequency, and the perception of that frequency.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Hubbard’s material is likely sound? It is sound only as a criminal scam to mislead and financially handicap it’s lesser members while enriching it’s bigger beings.. Very sound at that, indeed.. Wake and up and smell the coffee, Hiram.. Your self delusion is showing.. Unless of course you are one of the bigger beings still making money off the lesser scientologists.. In that case, I can see where “what is true” for you is coming from.. your ass..

      • Hiram

        LOL, I am not connected with the church of scientology in any way, shape or form. But I don’t let hate or prejudice blind me.

        • sugarplumfairy

          “The only way to control people is to lie to them…”

        • sugarplumfairy

          “MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY.”

        • sugarplumfairy

          “Any person very high on the Tone Scale may level destruction toward a suppressor.”

          • Hiram

            You see, this is what happens when I respond to what Jon Atack wrote about on reality. I get tons of anti hubbard and anti scientology stuff thrown out. I am not here to dispute any of the nasty shit of the church. I just think the reality comments are not a prime target for debunking anything.

            • Phil McKraken

              Is that because what is true is what is true for you?

            • Hiram

              your a quick study Phil.

            • Phil McKraken

              I’ve met your type before. That’s how I spotted it.

            • Once_Born

              Believing green grass is purple (or that fairies live at the bottom of your garden for that matter) makes you eccentric, but hardly dangerous. However, the attitude that enables people to believe these things can be lethal.

              For example. According to the BBC, “At least three people in London with HIV have died after they stopped taking life saving drugs on the advice of their Evangelical Christian pastors”. (
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14406818 ).

              Please note – I mean no offence to the Christians among us – I use this example because it just happens to be current news here in the UK and illustrates one of the nastier pitfalls of magical thinking.

              Many Scientologists have died after seeking medical treatment too late, not seeking it at all or following Hubbard’s comical advice that ‘smoking drives out cancer’. This is when they learn that you can’t ‘change the reality’ of terminal disease. It doesn’t care what’s true for you.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Dude, you obviously don’t know enough about hubbard.. I was just trying to clue you in, since you’re not connected to Scientology in any way, shape or form.. we like to be helpful here..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Um, the reality comments are spot on even without discussing Hubbard.

            • villagedianne

              I agree with you there. Many of Hubbard’s ideas are a restatement of spiritual and new age philosophies. The thing I object to is that fascistic way that Scientology uses these ideas. There is a good and a bad side to Almost everything. Hubbard always found the bad side.
              As for the purple grass, I’ve read that our eyes only record a small slice of reality. I still see the grass as green. But, whatever, as long as you are not hurting anybody, including yourself. (I guess that opens a whole can of worms on whether this would be hurtful to ones self.)
              In any case, I see your point. When Hubbard said “what’s true for you is true for you”. he didn’t practice what he preached. Many religions urge members to give testimonies. Scientology is the only religion I know of that requires “testimony”, in the form of Success Stories.

            • Missionary Kid

              I disagree. Hubtard’s ideas were not new age. They are as old as belief itself. He just repackaged them. IMO, the “New Age” philosophies drank from the same trough that he did. but used them without the basic greed and malice.

            • ThetaBara

              So are “new age” ideas, though. There is nothing new about them; they are simply repackaged. Hubbard added the twist of using these concepts to create subserviant followers to increase his own power – which is your basic black magic. None of it is at all new.

        • sugarplumfairy

          “I’m drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys.”

          • Hiram

            thank you for making my point below.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You are very welcome.. Count on me any time..

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          What does hate and prejudice have to do with reality (you know…what actually IS), as opposed to what someone may believe it to be?
          Dude, If you want to believe in that purple grass,…fine. But don’t say it is true when it is demonstrably false.
          Science is your friend!!!

          • 0tessa

            Science: the best antidote for Scientology!

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          And my reality tells me that there have been very few people in the history of the world who have found Hubbard’s words beneficial that WEREN’T involved with Scientology in some way, shape or form at some point in their lives. If you were “in” at some point and still believe, I can understand. If you were never “in” and feel Hubbard has worth, then there truly is no hope for you.

      • aquaclara

        LOOK, Sugarplumfairy! Davey could have called you for help!!!
        http://www.sugarplumtents.com/index.html
        (Ok, I know this isn’t you, but isn’t it funny!? And all purple-ey, too!).

        • sugarplumfairy

          lol.. I’d give co$ a reeeeeally special rate..

          • aquaclara

            and then you could let ALL your friends in to help! Us, Mark Bunker, the Suppressa Loozas, and Anons, who would hafta try to blend in a little!

            • Robert Eckert

              That’s the only way they get anywhere near to 10,000 attendance.

        • ThetaBara

          But, does it come with a bouncy castle?!

    • villagedianne

      It’s true what you say, that Scientology attempts to restrict the person from observing. Many new age philosophies do this in a benign way, as in: Don’t dwell too much on negativity. Count your blessings instead.
      The idea behind this is that negative thinking reaches dark forces, while positive thinking and gratitude reaches light forces. Whether one agrees with this or not, in Scientology this idea is used, as you state above, to force people into Hubbard’s mold. Hubbard always turned things to “the dark side of the force”.
      L. Ron Hubbard Jr. said Scientology is Satanism in slow motion.

      • Poison Ivy

        Well, there’s also a lot of hard science on the mind-body connection now. You can see the parts of the brain light up now when people have positive versus negative thoughts. To a certain degree, our conscious mental choices definitely affect our physical states (as well as our performance) It’s not ALL woo-woo – it’s only how it’s interpreted.
        I can say affirmations all day, 24/7/365, about how I am 25 years old and look like a super model, but I try as I may, I cannot make that reality happen. I visualize 24-7 about how I’m going to win the lottery, but there is no fucking way my positive thinking is going to make that happen, “The Secret” and “LRon.” You can only do so much with controlling your own thoughts and perceptions.

        As has been better stated by many above, there are certain laws of science that just make that impossible.

        Do I believe in miracles? In prayer? I definitely fall into the category of spiritual so I’ll say I have not closed my mind to any of the inexplicable things I have seen in my decades on the planet. But I’m not going to claim anything as “TRUE” if I don’t see the proof.

        • marti

          PI, “Well, there’s also a lot of hard science on the mind-body connection now. You can see the parts of the brain light up now when people have positive versus negative thoughts.”
          So true. I have become to believe this:

          Every moment of your life you are either attracting more of what you want, or more of what you don’t want–based on your thoughts and focus.
          Change your beliefs and you change your reality. Let law of attraction work for you and watch as your dreams become your reality.

          Can’t remember where I found it.

          • Poison Ivy

            Yes, but remember – the “law of attraction” (I don’t think it would technically qualify as a “law” in scientific terms) does NOT trump the laws of nature.

            There’s positive thinking and there’s magical thinking. Go back to Tony’s VV column where he posts the OT’s success stories from ADVANCE! Magazine and you’ll see the latter in full flower.

          • ze moo

            The same thing as ‘you pulled it in’. Did Japan pull in the earthquake and tsunami?? Does Calf, Idaho and all of the west desire the wild fires that continually plague it?? Shit happens, philosophy and religion attempt to explain the perversity of the universe, but can’t. Shit happens, deal with. Don’t go to Lrooon to explain it, it just happens….(most of the time, humans have been known to directly cause much suffering, see Wars, in wikipedia)

    • Kim O’Brien

      Hiram ….seriously …you are talking yourself into circles . If you think that Hubbard’s material is sound …than you really will be that person on the bus talking to himself about the pretty purple grass . Lemme guess …you are a salesman ? Is it your job to get people to NOT believe that the grass is green and tell them that they are being oppressed from finding their own “true reality” ? Scientology . It’s like math on FOX news ….only with body thetans . AND if you are not connected to scientology …in any way …maybe you should ring them up …or just leave your body and go say “hi”

      • Hiram

        Thank you Kim, I am hovering over their headquarters as we speak.

        • Kim O’Brien

          maybe you could find some of those missing kids …because THAT is a reality .

    • Captain Howdy

      So in a world of seven billion people it sounds logical to you to let everyone have their own version of reality? Oh wait..we have that already. A world where billions of people live their lives based on a belief in magic. If the the planet and everything that lives on it is going to survive much longer, humans need to come to the agreement that this is a material world and we are material beings because that is the only thing we can really prove. Anything else is counter productive and ill logical.

      You’re entitled to your own set of opinions..you’re not entitled to your own set of facts…jack.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        You’re entitled to your own set of opinions..you’re not entitled to your own set of facts…jack.

        You’re entitled to your own set of opinions..you’re not entitled to your own set of facts…jack.

        You’re entitled to your own set of opinions..you’re not entitled to your own set of facts…jack.

        Best sentence,….like, ever!!!!

        • Captain Howdy

          Thanks, but I hate it when people make me get serious.

          • 1subgenius

            This will help (Just uploaded, may take a minute to process)

            http://youtu.be/Xi5jcXc5koQ

            • Captain Howdy

              Thanks. That dispelled my serious delusion.

    • Espiando

      Too bad that Einstein blew that idea out of the water in 1905. Since Hubtard was {{{one of the pioneers of nuclear physics}}}, he should have known something about relativity.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      This is the philosophy of 5 year olds. It is magical and fun but then they turn 6. Now I often feel much younger than my age, and many a day I would like to believe I am younger, but if I Behave like a 5 year old, my doctor will either give me holy hell or a referral to a “specialist”.

    • WildaBeast

      I can’t remember who said this, and I’m going to paraphrase (I think it was Heinlein?) but – What we call reality is the little tiny slice of what actually goes on around us, that the vast majority of us all see and can agree on seeing.
      Nobody perceives all of what’s going on around us, and a damn good thing too, or we’d all go batshit from the sheer number of radio waves, number of 1s and 0s whirring up and down the optic fibres, cell phone signals, microwaves, the THOUGHTS of all the other people in our vicinity (they’re happening, and I know they’re happening because I see the output side of it, but if I could hear it all, I’d kill myself), and on and on and on.
      By that definition though, madness is when you start perceiving something one way, but everyone else around you is still perceiving it a different way – the SAME different way.
      This is not a perfect definition; I doubt we’ll ever have a perfect definition. But it’s a decent and fairly effective working definition, and going by that working definition, I can really see the force of what Jon Atack is saying.

      • Yeah, Alan Watts made the same point, we filter out extraneous information because we can only deal with so much information to process and deal with our environment.

        , the THOUGHTS of all the other people in our vicinity (they’re
        happening, and I know they’re happening because I see the output side of
        it, but if I could hear it all, I’d kill myself)

        There’s a short, short story by the late lamented C. M. Kornbluth, The World of Myron Flowers, you should look it up.

    • Veritas

      I think Hubbard did not intend for there to be a working premise or philosophy at all. I believe he designed every step of his bridge to shut down the capacity for critical thinking.

    • 1subgenius

      “Hubbards material is largely sound, like it or not.”

      inb4lolwutyershittinme

    • George Layton

      Ok I’m going to go back to the Freewinds once again. hubbard ordered a little Girl of 5 or 6 years old into the chain locker to cure her deafness and dumbness. In hubbards reality this was the right action. What about the Child’s reality? “Hubbard’s material was largely sound.” What sound? the terrified screams of a child?

    • Once_Born

      ” If I am sitting in a field of what most would agree is green grass, and I think its purple, its purple for me”.

      There is a distinction here between ‘seeing’ and ‘thinking’.
      If you see green grass and nevertheless think it is purple, that is self-deception.
      If you see purple grass, you are entitled to think it is purple. But if everyone else sees green, there’s an excellent chance you need your eyes testing.

      Reality brings about perception, not the other way around.
      That’s called solipsism, and it’s been known as a navel-gazing philosophical dead end for centuries.

      • WildaBeast

        Man I love how smart the people here are! Two years of philosophy courses in university and the words “solipsism” and “solipsistic” were never ONCE mentioned.
        (I dropped philosophy as a major…)

    • Captain Howdy

      “Hubbards material is largely sound”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        heh

  • George M. White

    “Reality as agreement” when added to Hubbard’s “extreme idealism” creates fertile ground for thought control.
    GMW

    • Poison Ivy

      Yes, per the 1941 play/1944 film Gaslight. When you control someone’s reality, you really can drive them mad.

      • George M. White

        You can also get them to pay you money

  • Mickey7

    Saw this is a celeb tabloid this morning (it’s a couple of days old, so sorry if this is old news to others here): http://www.showbizspy.com/article/261464/john-travolta-being-watched-by-scientology.html

    Any chance there is some truth to it?

    • Robert Eckert

      There is a good chance there is some truth to it, but Tony hasn’t confirmed it yet. In the Bunker reality, Tony is Source!

    • Ruby Grapefruit

      Sounds like typical cult BS; they have “handlers” for celebs, just like Katie Holmes had that Jessica tailing her everywhere

    • Bob

      Yes, it sounds very plausible. John is still very in Scientology.

    • villagedianne

      It does fit their MO, at least as far as Katie Holmes was concerned. Wonder if they would do this with a long-term member like Travolta.

  • Eivol Ekdal

    Straight from the horses ass himself…
    https://soundcloud.com/eivolekdal/therofe#t=3:50
    {MEST Universe is an agreement – and we ‘know’ that the space opera exists because if you audit random people from the street you get all kinds of space ships and so on.}
    edit: {} added

    • WildaBeast

      Ugh…”interesting”, is it, to make a little kid shake and cry in front of an audience? /rage
      God, I hope that that particular story is one of his many pieces of undiluted bovine excrement.

      • scnethics

        That story is 100% Hubbard-grade BS.

        • WildaBeast

          Oh good. Now I only have to be mad about him making up the story and referring to it so sociopathically as ‘interesting’, instead of having to be mad about both that AND the idea of the kid being put through that. Honestly, that’s a relief.

          • Eivol Ekdal

            don’t forget and all the kids getting audited currently ;(

            • WildaBeast

              Erph…so many things to be enraged about, and so little room in my brain. Thank God for TICK TOCK DAVEY…please let it all come crashing down ASAP. And then, please let there be some massive fundraising going on for all the therapy these poor kids are going to need.

        • Eivol Ekdal

          Slowly but surely as you listen to more ‘evidence’ and pay your fees to ‘raise your status’ Hubbard’s Fecked Up MEST becomes your own.

          • WildaBeast

            No kidding…because if you don’t convince yourself it’s all true, then what have you remortgaged your house, maxed out all your credit cards, and lost many of your friends for?

    • scnethics

      Certainly some of Hubbard’s “students” wondered whether these things would be coming up in session without Hubbard suggesting them before the sessions started, so here’s a nice little anecdote to “prove” this wasn’t the case. Jon is right – Hubbard knew what he was up to.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Exactly in his lecture he says that you can take people off the street and audit them and then gives examples where the person was quite clearly in his presence already for Scientology related reasons so they are on stage expected to perform. This is his evidence, and it’s always anecdotal.

    • Observer

      Because all little kids shriek “you mustn’t, you mustn’t, you mustn’t!” when feeling threatened. Why, I’ve heard hundreds!

      Hubbard couldn’t make up believable dialog to save his life.

      • Sherbet

        I was thinking the same thing, Observer — “O, welladay, forsooth, and ods-bodkins!” sayeth the child. lrh should have stuck to auditing tomatoes. He didn’t have to invent dialog for them.

        Edit: You mustn’t, you mustn’t, you mustn’t garnish me with extra virgin olive oil, basil, and mozzarella cheese!

      • WhereIsSHE

        That’s what I was thinking!

        There are more crappy lines of dialogue in Hubbard’s tall tales than there are Ewoks on Endor!(Star Wars ref. for the Sci Fi crowd)

  • WhereIsSHE

    So good to read Jon’s perspicacious analysis.
    Better to know he is so grounded.
    Best to know that people can recover completely and see that Hubbard was the origin of this entire FUBAR situation.

    While I love the letter by “The Thinker” which was posted on Rinder’s blog… the part where he related his “reality” of bringing some guy back from the dead by “ordering him to get back into his body” was sad beyond belief. I hope he, too, wakes up from that part of the faux “reality” agreement someday.

    Was also grateful that Jon explained why the e-meter causes people to FEEL a “win”.
    ENDORPHINS.
    You know what’s cheaper and more effective??
    Going for a run or a bike ride… or swimming.. or any decent cardio workout.
    (It’s called “runner’s HIGH” for a reason.)

    If you’re too lazy to get that physical, you can always get acupuncture.
    HEAVENLY (and nowhere near as pricey or dangerous as becoming a Scientologist).

    • BananaSplits8

      “…or any decent cardio workout.”

      My reality defines cardio minutes as the longest minutes, ever… even longer than microwave minutes if you can imagine that

      • Poison Ivy

        Mine too.

      • WhereIsSHE

        That’s because you haven’t conditioned yourself to be addicted to endorphin rushes (yet;)

        The first few minutes (or miles) always sort of suck.
        But when those mighty endorphins kick in… aint no pain ever felt soooooo goooooooood;)

    • WildaBeast

      Acupuncture FTW!!! 7 1/2 years ago, when I was trying really hard to not be on crack, but wasn’t quite ready to be totally off it, acupuncture was my savior. 45 minutes with those needles hanging out of my ears and I’d be craving-free for the rest of the day. Indescribable relief.
      Also, endorphins FTW! I do roller derby, and smoke cigarettes. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even mind the lung pain, because the rest of me feels so friggin’ great after practice 😀

      • WhereIsSHE

        You are my kind of WildaBeast!

      • junojones

        Only been acupunctured once for a numb arm (from sleeping wrong) that persisted for weeks.
        That hour of endorphin release was better than heroin, skeptics take note.

        And whether from acupuncture or healing, the arm stopped tingling the next day.

    • Captain Howdy

      If I need relief from pain I’m not letting Dr. Woo-Woo stick with me numerous needles. It only takes one.

      http://youtu.be/fLKOk61OBm4

      http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

  • John P.

    This article does a really nice job explaining one of the key aspects of how the cult cuts people loose from the outside world to turn them into brainwashed followers. First, you convince them that reality is flexible and that they create their reality — that’s a way at hinting at potential “super powers” to come, where you can shape your reality and have super power over the world. But then there’s the ol’ switcheroo later, where you come up against the punishment and control mechanisms of the cult when you try to invent your own reality; the only acceptable reality to create is the one Hubbard wants you to have.

    However, Jon makes one assertion that I think is wildly inaccurate:

    or through the electrical pain relief of the e-meter (check TENS machines out, which, just like the e-meter pass a small current through the body, but to relieve pain, rather than to get you high — both are achieved by the release of endorphins).

    Though they both pass current through the skin, I strongly doubt that e-meters have any analgesic effect like TENS machines are claimed to do.

    It should be noted that TENS machines are very controversial (a polite way of saying that there appears to be extremely little clinical research done on their effectiveness, so they are very possibly quack therapy); given the market opportunity to treat chronic pain sufferers, I think that if there were even preliminary consensus that the technology is worth pursuing, we’d see all the major medical device makers pursuing TENS far more aggressively, since it would be by any reasonable guess a $15 to $20 billion market in the G-8 countries (assuming $10,000 per patient for the machine and downstream maintenance/consumables). These machines have been around since the 1970s; if they worked well, you’d think someone would have figured that out by now. And if the device companies were after the opportunity, I assure you that we in Global Capitalism HQ would be on top of it, to figure out which stocks we should buy.

    Doubts about the effectiveness of TENS aside, the voltage needed to have any effect on muscles is completely different than the voltage needed to sense changes in galvanic response along the surface of the skin. E-meter current is almost certainly in the millivolt range, while the current used in TENS is likely in the tens of volts, several thousand times greater. And equally importantly, for TENS to have any effect at all, it must be on/off, like alternating current, to stimulate the contraction and release of muscles or to affect nerve signals. But alternating current is absolutely what you don’t want for an e-meter, because what you’d see on the meter dial would be the effects of the current changing the resistance of the skin, rather than measuring the actual resistance of the skin.

    • Missionary Kid

      Agreed. The type of current used for TENS is totally different than what the e-meter produces.

      • Poison Ivy

        No question. As I said, you could not MISS when the TENS is working – it’s a pulsing and vibrating (like one of those chairs you sit in but never buy at Brookstone.)

    • Studious Judious

      Just to clarify, current is measured in Amperes, while voltage is measured in Volts.

    • Bob

      John P. is dead on. The Emeter current is tiny and has no effect on the body. The machines are apples and oranges.

    • Ms. B. Haven

      I agree about the TENS machine aspect of Mr. Atack’s comments. If the e-meter has the ability to release endorphins and therefore have a ‘feel good’ effect, that would happen every time one picked up the cans. I can assure everyone from personal experience that I didn’t feel good every time I picked up the cans in those dark days when I was ‘in’. I am guessing that my experience was not unique.

    • Poison Ivy

      I almost never disagree with you, John, but I had a serious nerve surgery in two places (the ulnar nerve in my wrist and in my elbow – excruciating; they had to scrape the scar tissue around the nerve away from the bone.) Two days after the surgery – which required overnight hospitalization – I had to fly halfway around the world for a job that would not allow me to compromise my clarity with pain killers. So the surgeon (kind of a holistic guy) gave me a TENS unit. It was unbelievable. I used it 2 days after my surgery for a 16 hour flight and then for the next week – 2 weeks and never took a pain killer except to sleep the first couple nights. I loved it. You have to remember, this was surgery directly on the nerve in my arm and hand. Without the tens unit (you start the unit when you feel the first twinges of pain), it was excruciatingly painful. Simply unbearable. This wasn’t the placebo effect, I can promise you.

      This was in the 90’s. When I returned the unit, I asked the surgeon I went to why everyone didn’t use this instead of painkillers, and he told me that once a consumer buys ONE TENS unit, there will be no more need for pharmaceutical pain killers for the most part. And as much as Pharma will say they are against abuse of painkillers, they’re making shitloads of money on addicts, and on people with chronic pain. Pharma has been fighting TENS units for pain since the 1980’s, according to my surgeon back then. Perhaps the devices are only good for specific sorts of uses, like the surgery I was recovering from. I can’t imagine one ever working for my migraines, for example, or abdominal pain. But for me back then, it worked like a miracle.

      I have never been e-metered so I couldn’t compare the voltage, but you could REALLY feel the TENS unit working. I had to have it up to the highest level in the beginning, which was a very perceptible vibration.

      • WildaBeast

        Hmmm…my wife has a bunch of nerve damage, and right now we don’t really see a way she’ll ever be both functional in the real world, and totally off narcotic painkillers (she also has a broken back, shattered knee, rheumatoid arthritis that just butchers her hands, and some other shit). I wonder if one of those would work on the nerve damage pain for her…though unless it’s covered by OHIP here, we ain’t likely to acquire one.

      • Veritas

        I think John is correct in his main point, which is that the e-meter current is far to low to cause any physiologic changes

        • Missionary Kid

          The e-meter also only uses direct current, with no pulsing, as the TENS machine does.

      • John P.

        PI, the thing about TENS (and which is equally true of many other medical inventions) is that while there are individual success stories such as yours, controlled studies of statistically significant populations don’t show clear enough results that one can say “TENS works” or even say “TENS works in only X% of cases, so it’s not the first line of attack but it’s worth trying if nothing else works.” So as an investor in healthcare stocks, when I say “X works” or “X doesn’t work,” I am never talking about in individual cases; I am talking about whether “X” works in a sufficiently meaningful cross-population way that it will create a viable business opportunity for the maker of “X.” And that is most definitely not the case with TENS.

        Another thing to remember is that whenever anyone, including a health care provider, says anything that sounds like “the technology is being suppressed because X moneyed interest would lose too much money,” that is a big red flag for quackery. While it is true that big pharma would lose money if TENS worked, mainstream medical device makers would make a fairly spectacular living building and selling TENS machines. And a big part of the business model for any successful medical device is whether or not it requires consumables for each patient — an in-office EKG machine might cost $10,000, and if you use it on just 2 patients a day and each patient needs a set of disposable electrodes that cost $50, then in just 2 1/2 years, the device maker has made more money off consumables than off the original device. That would be easily doable with electrode pads for a TENS machine.

        So while pharma might lose money from a successful TENS machine, the device makers would be cheering TENS on madly if it worked because that would be a $100-plus billion hardware market (10 million chronic pain sufferers in G-8 economies at $10,000 per machine) plus $10 billion or more per year in consumables, a big enough market they would kill to get into it. Competition between pharma, devices and other aspects of the health care industry is brutal; “Pharma” or anyone else simply cannot suppress any technology that is shown to be effective because some other group of companies serving the healthcare market would profit enough to push back effectively against anyone trying to block a new effective approach.

        It’s like treating cancer: there are three approaches that are in brutal economic competition as well as competing to deliver the best outcome: chemo drug makers lose money if you get radiation treatment. And guys like GE or Siemens who make linear accelerators used in radiation treatment lose money if surgeons can just go in and cut tumors out. The competition results in better results at lower cost for consumers, the way capitalism is supposed to work. And that competition spurs the three different groups to keep looking at new treatments to get a sustainable leg up over their rivals. There is so much money and prestige at stake (and so many lives at stake) in the battle against cancer that nothing effective will ever be suppressed because somebody will get money or fame from introducing it.

        And don’t forget: everybody’s interests are diametrically opposed to the interest of the insurers who pay for all this: if a cheap substance (remember laetrile?) actually treated cancer, every insurer in the world would have immediately required it to be used as the front line treatment before they paid for anything else. That they don’t is as telling that a given cheap miracle cure doesn’t work as is negative or inconclusive clinical results.

        And note that a fully FDA-certified TENS machine would not cost $100 or $200, the prices charged on line, but would cost closer to $5,000 or $10,000 because of the stringent requirements for electrical safety and for verification of the software that controls the device. Medicare would enthusiastically pay that much per unit, incidentally, if they worked, because of the high number of chronic pain patients soaking up $1,000 or more of pain drugs every month for years on end.

        • Missionary Kid

          I believe that TENS units only work for limb pain, where both ends of the nerve are more isolated and available for the electrodes. I’ve noticed on some of the literature that discusses the units that they talk about the lack of effectiveness for back and neck pain. Perhaps there are too many nerves bunched together, and, without electrodes going to a particular nerve in both places, the TENS unit is not really effective. Just a theory.

          • Poison Ivy

            Interesting, John P. But I think the TENS has been used enough in physical therapy environments to disqualify it as “quackery”, the way laetrile was. And yes, MK, my situation was very specific and isolated – pain from wrist to elbow only. As I said, I get really dreadful migraines (that usually can be averted if I get the right meds to them right when they start). I’ve tried a zillion other ways and that’s the only one that works for me. I can’t imagine how a TENS unit would ever help there.
            I just hope insurance still covers the machines (they covered mine 100% – I had it for about a month and then returned it) for people who could be helped by it – because, like I said, I was able to have this incredibly debilitating surgery and be very actively at work in another part of the world 2 days later. I could never have done that on pain meds – I am super sensitive to them and if I don’t fall right to sleep, I at least can’t think clearly when I take them.

            • Pete Cockerell

              But I think the TENS has been used enough in physical therapy environments to disqualify it as “quackery”

              Replace TENS with acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, chiropractic and countless other quack “cures” over the years, and I think you start to see the problem with that statement. The plural of anecdote isn’t “evidence”. A therapy like TENS would seem like a perfect candidate for the placebo effect, and that’s exactly what large scale clinical trials would tease out. (That said, I don’t have enough knowledge to know if TENS is a real treatment or not; I just see a huge red flag in the “well it works for me” at argument. Haven’t there been people posting here using the exact same argument for Scientology from time to time?)

            • Poison Ivy

              I see an analogy there, Pete, but not the same way you do. If someone says “Scientology works for me, ” I have no reason to doubt their subjective experience. I can say, however, that therapy or yoga or exercise or – gasp! – education! might produce the same if not better results. The TENS unit absolutely worked for me – subjectively. I believe this and as far as I’m concerned, I had what I consider enough empirical proof for my experience – I went straight from intravenous morphine for extreme pain in the hospital to barely any painkillers the next day. Remember, they had to scrape my friggin’ scar-covered NERVE away from my bone, so the pain was not in my head. I don’t always do well with pain, so this was proof enough for me at the time. And I’m a skeptic. Now, would it work for everyone? Or even for me, with a different injury? Or the same injury, another time? Maybe not – maybe my determination to go right back to work helped me overcome the pain better than I might’ve if I’d had the chance to lie around the house for a few days. Who is saying that different painkillers, or hypnotism, or bio-feedback wouldn’t have produced the same results if not better results for me? I’m not saying that. Some anti-depressants don’t work for some people, despite clinical trials proving their efficacy at work for most. I know people who can take a half a bottle of xanax and get high. I take 1/2 of the smallest dose of xanax and I conk out within 15 minutes, and sleep for about 8 hours. My well-regarded hand surgeon recommended the device to all his patients, especially athletes, addicts, and other who didn’t want to take painkillers. So I’m thinking he had enough anecdotal successes that he felt it was worth his reputation to recommend it. (Now, he also sent me away with a bottle of painkillers “just in case”. So that may tell you something right there.) John P is saying that clinical trials for the device don’t show enough consistent successes for the majority of patients to make it worth any big money investment. John P is all about facts and I place great weight on facts. That makes sense. But to me, that isn’t the same as saying it’s (or anything else) is full-out quackery.

              If someone has an injury and a painkiller, or antibiotic, or medical device ISN’T working for them, I’m not going to say, “No, it really works, try it again.” to them. If someone can successfully meditate to get rid of their migraines, I’ll be damned if I’ll let them talk me into forsaking my relpax if I get one. But that doesn’t mean the meditation didn’t help them.

              This goes to the problem that I have when people try to shout down the Clams here. I think if you were to do a survey, you’d find that the earliest levels of Scientology seemed to “work” for a lot of people who experienced it. I won’t argue that with anyone. Personally, if you want to believe that, whatever. But at what cost? It’s the cost that is the problem – the financial and psychic cost; the cost of self-delusion; the cost of loss of family; and of supporting a church structure that bankrupts people, enslaves people, tortures people, abuses people, and destroys people inside and outside of the church. Not to mention the cost horrible cost of shunning real medical care even when the “touch assists” aren’t working. These negative results aren’t subjective; they are facts, as Tony proves here again and again. Can you practice Scientology for a long period of time without directly or indirectly shunning, or disconnecting, or bankrupting or otherwise hurting others or yourself? Can you believe that LRH went to the Van Allen Belt, given what we know about the Van Allen Belt, and given the fact that LRH lied about pretty much everything in his entire life? I’d send you to Marty’s site for that one. But you or I have no right to say to someone that their experience of faith didn’t happen. That’s why it’s called faith. It’s about belief.

              This is where Hubbard can get at the open-minded, though…by working his way into convincing them (people like me, in fact) that subjective belief can be a universal fact. I can tell you the TENS worked for me but I’m not doubting what John P says about the lack of studies. I won’t try and withhold your morphine if you have the same operation. I may like to run in the morning, but I’m not going to nag my husband who’d rather lift weights in the morning that running is “better” for his health. I’m happy to argue facts. But the minute you try and force your belief on me, then we have a problem.

              The problem with Clams is, they don’t know the difference between belief and reality, and the deeper they go, the more blurred that line becomes. That was LRH’s intent in saying “What’s true for you is true.” Because he was telling you what to believe, and then re-inforcing your need to believe it with only his word for “proof.” That’s why people like him can prey on the open-minded, the big-hearted, the seekers of the world. That’s what makes him so damn evil.

            • WildaBeast

              Oh, well phrased! Upvote!

            • Poison Ivy

              🙂

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I agree. There’s even a no-no in the ethics issues about “open minded people”. They’re baaad. That was one of those that red flagged for me. I had someone explain to me why it was bad. That one didn’t “take”.

            • Robert Eckert

              “they don’t know the difference between belief and reality” Which comes full circle to Atack’s point: the core of Scientology is that Hubbard persuades people there is no difference between belief and reality. Which reminds me of the old saying, “In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there is.”

            • Pete Cockerell

              Thanks, PI. Nothing to disagree with there, and vigorous agreement about there being other, much less damaging ways to achieve the same kind of “gains” that the initial Scio processes give some people.

              I actually wrote a longer reply but I lost is when I logged in before posting it (I thought disqus would preserve it for me, but I should have copied it just in case!) Oh well, all you missed out on is my anecdote whereby I vaguely recalled actually have TENS treatment for a knee injury 20 years ago!

        • sister wendy

          Probably a lot of people will disagree with what I’m going to say, however it might resonate with some. We tend to look in the US particularly for one cure for something. And only validate something as “science” if it works for everyone. Like there is one thing that will fix or cure an illness or weakness. In my experience, this isn’t at all how much of healing works. Iif you’ve got something obviously physical- like a broken bone, it’s easier (although keep in mind there are good ways to do this and better ways and worse ways to set a bone, depending on where you are and which doctor you are talking to. They all think they are right, so they all think their way is the “best and only” way). All mammals groups have people who exhibit signs (physically) that 20% of any one group have more nerve endings than the rest of the population. So it’s very likely that almost anything considered “alternative” (anything involving energy, meridian lines, etc, which would include acupuncture, bio-feedback, etc). 20% of us are going to be helped by this, while 80% may not notice a difference at all. Not all people are helped by the same thing. Even if it’s “scientific”. An anti-biotic might work for someone, and make another person vomit. Additionally in the US, there is this huge break that happened between AMA-style medicine and what people in the US might consider “quackery” (but the rest of the world doesn’t!) with alternative treatments. In my experience, it is only in the US that there is a denial of many types of very inventive treatments that help a myriad of problems. There IS alternative stuff that works. And there is alternative stuff that doesn’t- just as there is AMA “science” stuff that is also really bad. I think it’s an impossible path to say “this work”, this doesn’t”, “this is scientific”, “this is only magical thinking” without looking at the person, how they are healing and what is working. This is my experience with illness and healing…

          • Poison Ivy

            Wow Sister Wendy, I just pretty much said the same thing, but not quite as well.

            There is a lot we don’t know about healing, and much we can learn from alternative treatments. Have you ever watched acupuncture done on an anxious dog? No prefrontal cortex to have any pre-conceived ideas, and boom. Most dogs will immediately relax, and remain relaxed for hours afterward. You can watch the stress – or pain – go out of their faces. Will acupuncture cure my migraines? No. Will it cure cancer? I wouldn’t take that risk.

            Technology isn’t necessarily always “smarter” than the old ways. Did you know that in most of the world, diapers don’t exist? Nope. In fact they are considered unsanitary and disgusting. Instead, infants are trained to pee and poop by a sound cue by their parents at ridiculously early ages – as early as a month or two after birth (not the same as toilet training, but it allows the parent to carry around an infant w/a bare bottom and not have to worry about getting peed or pooped on). Excuse me, but I think that’s better for the planet than diapers, don’t you? But the difference is, the mom has to be with the kid a lot more than a few hours a day, to impart this “elimination communication.” Our culture doesn’t leave much of an option for that.

            This culture doesn’t have much patience for things that take that kind of time and attention. And Big Pharma or no Big Pharma, most of us would rather take a pill to solve a problem – be it weight loss or pain or stress – than go the long way. We’re just too busy.

            • sister wendy

              wow- thanks for the compliment, PI. I think you are particularly well spoken. That is interesting about the baby poops…good to know…. One of the things I did when I cured myself of breast cancer, was I spoke with other women who had also “healed miraculously” to see what they had done, what they had run into. The most riveting story and interesting advice came from a high powered international German business executive, who in the end gave me the perfect metaphor…we all find our own way into ill-health,we all have to find our own pathway out of it. Her’s involved a very controversial alternative treatment which “discovered” a small tumor in her mouth (that was what was pouring into her immune system). Her dentist did not believe her (or the practitioner who said the tumor was there). But low and behold, after a bunch of German strong-arming, the dentist did the xray and there was the tumor. After it was taken out, her cancer cleared up completely. Found with “quackery”, she really cured her immune system. Lessons to be learned. It would be nice if pills did everything. I know I love mine when they do;) Leider…we often have to do more.

          • Robert Eckert

            This also fits with what Missionary Kid was saying, that TENS may have more effectiveness in those pain cases (such as Ivy’s) where the nerve endings affected are more exposed, while it is not very useful in cases like lower back pain (the most intransigent kind of pain, which nobody knows any good treatment for). Different strokes for different folks.

            • sister wendy

              Absolutely!

    • George M. White

      JP,
      You can also get them to pay twice. First, you pay Hubbard for his reality. Next you pay while he adjusts it.
      GMW

      • Missionary Kid

        “First, you pay Hubbard for his reality. Next you pay while he adjusts it.” Exactly, except I would put it as $cientology instead of the Hub.

        • George M. White

          Yes, Hub died in 1986.

    • Theo Sismanides

      Thank you John P. for providing specific data and doing an analysis to explain the difference between an e-meter and TENS. I didn’t know what are TENS. In any case thank you for being objective.

  • Bob

    Hubbards whole premise was based on earlier philosophy, primarily the Buddhists who are trying to achieve a higher state outside The Trap of the physical universe. There are still millions of people who believe this and practice this(non-clams). There are those who believe that if you cannot see something it does not exist. Therefore it is only what we perceive with our 5 basic senses that is REAL. That’s the debate.

    The truth is there are factors that transcend the 5 senses. But this is a discussion with a broad set of examples that is the basis of spiritual philosophy in general. To me the main point is not about the truth or lack of truth but the fact that in Scientology there is only one truth and that is the truth that Hubbard subscribes to. And eventually if one is to move up the bridge to total freedom one must ascribe to ALL of what Hubbard wrote and said. It is self contradictory. Does that then invalidate the Buddhists concept of re-incarnation which has been around a hell of a lot longer than Clamatogy. No it just negates the church’s absolute dogmatic adherence to all that Hubbard said; the good and not good. Which turns people into mush headed idiots. I consider all scientologists disabled until they are able to see Hubbards work not as the gospel truth but a body of work that has many ideas to select from, some practical some not.

    • Robert Eckert

      It is one thing to say that there are things true which are not readily apparent to our senses and naive beliefs about the world. It is quite another to refuse to recognize that some thing just AIN’T TRUE. Believing really hard in a bunch of woo-woo doesn’t make it true, and when it is coupled with arrogantly looking down on the pure sheeple who don’t buy your woo-woo, it becomes insufferable.

      • Bob

        Being a clam requires full burial in the church’s sand pit.

        • Sherbet

          Come on out, Bob! That’s it; first one foot, and then the other. 😀

          • Missionary Kid

            Bob is coming out at his own pace. I can see it in his comments. He even came up with a new derogatory term for DM that I stole.

            • Sherbet

              I know, Kid. I love hearing from Bob. He has a unique perspective.

          • Bob

            LOL, no way Jose. To little time to much to do.

            • Sherbet

              Whenever, Bob!

    • Veritas

      I think Hubbard did not intend for there to be a working premise or philosophy at all. I believe he designed every step of his bridge to shut down the capacity for critical thinking.

      In Buddhism, there is the “natural mind” or the “polished mirror” which is unclouded by errant thoughts.
      In Scientology, there are millions of errant thoughts which basically obliterate the natural mind.

    • Ms. B. Haven

      There is another aspect of Buddhism that requires one to doubt and carefully examine the teachings that are presented, either the Buddha’s teachings or subsequent elaborations on those teachings. There is never a demand that these teachings be accepted as ‘truth’; whatever that is. In scientology, there is absolutely no room for doubt, questioning, debate, etc. Truth is what Hubbard says it is and that’s that. Period. End of discussion. If you don’t accept something as truth, you are ‘out KSW’ and considered a namby pamby panty-waist dilettante. Off to ‘ethics’ for you so you can get handled and get your reality adjusted sufficiently to be part of the group.

      • Poison Ivy

        “If you meet the Buddha on the road, Kill him!” – Lin Chi, 9th Century Buddhist Master (attributed)

  • Bob

    Yet another fund raising scam in LA. It just never stops. Check this out on Mike Rinders blog. Just disgusting.

    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/begging-for-an-ideal-pac/

    • stillgrace

      ha ha ha … I love how Rinder refers to the new tent to be erected in Clearwater as “Voldemort’s Tent”!
      “Voldemort’s Tent is making its way across Alligator Alley from Miami as we speak …”

      • Bob

        The tent is appropriate. Reminiscent of the traveling gospel preachers, going from town to town collecting donations.

        • 1subgenius

          Nice.
          Also carnivals, with their chumps, geeks, and barkers.
          Had a carny stay with me once, and he told me, “There’s only two kinds of people in the world. Carnies, and suckers.”
          (True story)

          • Missionary Kid

            The attitude of Carnies has been written about in other places. You don’t have to say, “(True story)” I thought that was common knowledge.

            It is a philosophy that is “us against them,” as well as a justification for ripping people off.

            • 1subgenius

              The quote may be “common knowledge”, but the story of a carny staying with me and saying it, is a true story, thus the “(True story)”.

            • Missionary Kid

              Sub, I believed everything you wrote. I was just trying to say that you didn’t have to add the “(True story)” because it was so true.

            • 1subgenius

              That’s interesting.

          • Captain Howdy

            True observation.

    • Robert Eckert

      We saw that flyer here a while back. But Rinder puts it in perspective.

      • Bob

        Yes. The perspective that clams are suppose to pay for their bridge and pay for all these new buildings that are given to Mousekavige. What happened to fair exchange? And clams are suppose to feel good that they are supporting a most profitable non-profit organization.
        It’s purpose to clear the planet of all wealth and deposit it in the mouse kings bank accounts.

    • Sunny Sands

      I was in Clearwater on Saturday and there seems to be some activity in the large empty lot south of super powerz. They took down about 1/3 of the privacy fence. Last we heard, an auditorium was going in there at some future time. The tent lot, south of the FH, is much smaller, and looked the same, which is empty. So the tent is now in Naples, that’s about 3 hours south of Clearwater. It seems surreal that so much attention is on the tent, with hundred of millions of dollars of real estate on the agenda.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I guess this means they’re not going to pour a concrete floor for the tent structure. Those take time to cure, plus we’ve had rain every day for weeks so that’s a bit of a problem too.

  • Mark

    To me, “the whole shmear” looks like a shmutzik shtik of dreck on a shmatte, dreamt up by a shnorrer to shmeikel shlemiels with sheer shihi-pihi. Shoyn genug!

    • stillgrace

      Easy for you to shay!

      • Mark

        I losht my dentures.

        • 1subgenius

          Vat a noodnik.

          • WhereIsSHE

            The Bunker has officially moved to the Catskills!

    • Captain Howdy

    • junojones

      The only ‘Shmear’ I want is smoked whitefish salad on my bagel.

      Signed,
      a shiksa who is seriously in love with jewish comfort food.

    • Mark

      Nu? A downvote?!

      Esn zolstu yedn tog gehakte leber mit tsibeles, shmaltz-herring, yoykh mit knaydlekh, karp mit khreyn, ayngedamfts mit tsimes, latkes, tey mit tsitrin – un zolstu zikh mit yedn bis DERSHTIKN!

      • WildaBeast

        Huh?!

        • Robert Eckert

          Something about how you should eat chopped liver and creamed herring and dumplings and potato pancakes and other good food– and you should eat it until you CHOKE! (Common form of curse: you wish blessings on the other, and keep heaping up the blessings, to give the other a chance to apologize, and then turn it at the end).

          • Mark

            Vos Robert gezogt!

        • Mark

          “Every day may you eat chopped liver with onions, schmaltz-herring, chicken-soup with dumplings, carp with horseradish, stew with vegetables, latkes, tea with lemon, and on every bit may you CHOKE!”

          • WildaBeast

            BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! I wondered why the only words I recognized were foods!

  • Charles Chadwick

    This is one of the most excellent articles on here that I’ve read in a while. Often I find myself using errant beliefs as comic relief, but honestly, it’s a deadly serious issue most of the time.

  • Parts of reality–“social reality”–are, in large part, “by agreement”–see, e.g., John Searle’s _The Construction of Social Reality_ and Ian Hacking’s _The Social Construction of What?_. Hubbard clearly *did* create a social reality to his specification around him by getting people to buy into it. Searle’s book shows how such social reality can come crashing down when people stop believing in it, as happened with the fall of the Berlin Wall due to a misstatement by a public official on radio, and with the fall of the Soviet Union, and is happening now with Scientology.

    It’s a big mistake to disregard the fact that not all reality is “social reality”!

  • richelieu jr

    Very nice summation, that. Thanks so much, Jon.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    If there is any one pearl of wisdom I have captured in my life, it’s simply that it’s friends and family that matter, and everything else is window dressing. Imagination is one of the great gifts of life, but just like anything, imbalance crushes living things and people flat.

    Scientologist are The Great Imagineers.
    The reality of life as a scientologist? For the majority, they work 3 jobs or run 3 businesses, rarely see their family and friends. There is no real social life. Any parties or gatherings are for sales or for salesmen to gather qualifying details. They live off of paranoia and fear. They fear their own grandchildren as soon as they learn to read and write because they now can write up “reports” on them if they say or do the wrong thing. The wrong thing is different month to month so they spend free time trying to figure out what that is via Facebook warnings and scaling the mountain of promo and emails stacked up in the corner.

    They jump when the phone rings which they can’t answer. They spend what little disposable income they have after scientology’s ransomed quota that month on products that will ease their fear of the air they breathe and water they drink and promises of warding off real illnesses and actual aging. They fall into bed
    exhausted after their 100 hour week and spend another hour concocting an excuse or a cover story for the next interrogation session at some ethics officers whim. They secretly cry in the early hours of the morning and internally beat themselves up every night trying to hold back the growing rage.

    They go for a hard run or sweat on the cycle machines to try to stop bad thoughts and wondering what is wrong. They know something is terribly, terribly wrong and another fear now crops up….what if they are suppressive? They melt down into depression when the foreclosure or bankruptcy notice arrives, and a copy of that knowedge report from their best friend.

    Then they imagine what will happen if they admit it was all just their imagination. Those who have made it this far are the ones who couldn’t face life with all it’s hard and tough realities in the first place. And so they send their friend a disconnection kiss goodbye and turn themselves into ethics for more reality adjustments.

    Scientologists’s arrogance is a wall to hide their misery which they imagine will lift on their next bridge step.
    Scientologists are fantastic Imagineers, but they are lousy family or friends.

    • WildaBeast

      That statement just really hit me hard. I know anxiety and panic and fear and depression too well to be able to think of that in objective terms. If I was living like that I really might kill myself…and I know some do </3 Nobody deserves to live like that. ESPECIALLY, nobody deserves to pay hundreds of thousands for the privilege.
      THDNE, thank you for writing that. It gives me joy to know you're away from that kind of living hell.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        scientology IS a slow death. For those that I found who are still physically alive, the person I knew is not. It is a very toxic and destructive life inside the bubble.

        • WildaBeast

          I’m a never-in, and I keep looking for ways to relate what Scientologists go through in the cult to my own experiences (not necessarily because I have lots of experiences that relate, but because it’s human nature to do it). What you describe sounds kind of like living with really bad depression and anxiety – can’t do this, can’t do that, paralyzed with fear but must keep moving, can’t sleep for weight in stomach but MUST KEEP MOVING, all my fault I feel like this, everyone else is fine, I’m just weak/unworthy/can’t handle it…yes, it would be soul-destroying. Especially because it’s NOT just in your own head – it’s coming from outside you, and the only way to make the horribleness stop is to basically dynamite the life you have and rebuild it, and yourself, from the ground up.
          “Toxic” is a good word for it. Bad enough when it comes from inside yourself…but when someone else has deliberately designed a way to MAKE you feel like that…talk about crimes against humanity!

          • WildaBeast

            Rereading what I just wrote…just to clarify: I do not know what being in is like. I have no way ever to know. I am grateful I have no frame of reference. I can’t help but try and make sense of it in light of my own experiences…but that doesn’t mean I have a damn clue. As GlibWog says, I hope you can feel the love from the never-ins…and the overwhelming respect I have for your courage.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I left Long before it got to this point! I never ever felt courageous. Well, maybe my last days when I left the Sea Org, but only in looking back. Not at the time! I was part of the mass exodus in the mid 80’s when Miscavige rode in on his high horse. Even us Sea Org staff fled. Thank goodness these few left now are waking up out of their coma. I realize some just are not going to make it.

            • marti

              THDNE, Your posts are so wonderful and informative but especially the one from 3 days ago about disconnection really got to me. And these two sentences:

              “If you disconnect from your own heart, your own mind, and your own power, who exactly will be left to live in your place?

              It’s not possible to disconnect from the love of your family or friends.
              You can Only disconnect from Yourself.”

              To break apart families and friends through disconnection…such destruction and broken hearts..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Thanks, marti. The Reckoning must really be happening. I’ve notice myself and other old timers still kickin’ digging really deep down and giving it one last gasp of reaching out to those on the other side.

            • WildaBeast

              Really courageous acts never seem courageous at the time, I’ve noticed. You just feel like you’re doing what you have to do, when you’re doing it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t brave to do it (eep, double negative!). And from all I’ve heard about leaving the Sea Org, there’s no such thing as just fading gracefully into the background. There’s always some moment – whether it’s deciding to route out and sticking with it, or accepting that you’re going to be declared and disconnected from, or physically running like hell – where you’ve got to take a stand for your own life and sanity. That takes guts. So my comment stands 🙂
              Regarding those still in…no, not all of them will make it out okay. But the more the {church} falls into disrepute (and it’s in free-fall!), the more folks are going to cut and run. I just hope that as many as possible do it as soon as possible.

            • sister wendy

              It’s really unbelievable unless you are there doing it (not that I recommend it to anyone;) but the thing is, you don’t notice the things that are negative, until you are well in. It doesn’t look like depression or worry when you’re there. And you think you are “right” (pretty much) while you’re living that way. It’s probably not unlike what the Westboro church believers think…their ETERNITY is at stake (they think). Sci-bot land is brilliant at getting you to live every day as if there is a pressure on you all the time that you will die, your family and friends will die, and all will be lost (you’ll come back poor, unable, without memories of how to be successful, etc) Or that you are responsible for the downfall of many. It’s like it takes the concept of Personal Responsibility and distorts it.

          • cicely neville

            Eloquently said , WB.

            • WildaBeast

              Thank you! I am warm and fuzzy now, because I keep noticing and loving your posts as well.

            • cicely neville

              Aw gee, thanks!
              Look, are you Kimberley the Canadian roller derby queen? I’m getting confused here –

        • Krew13

          Sums up what happened to Dan Murnan. Was there any truth to the rumour that he died? In any case, you can see the COS reduced him to an empty shell of a person. If he IS alive, he’s effectively dead anyway.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmkx0yRoU6k

          • GlibWog

            Krew.. Wow Powerful Video.. I watched Dan on Wise Man with the Beard videos.. In Your Face Scn. Shit..

            Just a shell of a man… This video just haunting. Extremely telling . This is the FUCKIN REALITY OF WHAT that EVIL CULT does to people… tears just running down my cheeks..

            I read the comments and as of 11 months ago Dan was still alive. Yes you are right. Either way he is dead..

            OMG he is just one of Many Faces of this
            MOFuckin Sick Twisted Cult.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              You said it! And no, I never heard confirmation about Dan Murnan. In this video, he definitely looks to be in the last stages.

            • Captain Howdy

              I heard that Dan is still alive and it was his brother or father that died of cancer, not him. And like Sherb said, I read he use to box professionally before scientology.

            • Sherbet

              BTW, Howdy, I’m enjoying the book I’m reading on Jonestown. So far, there are LOTS of places I could substitute Hubbard for Jones.

            • GlibWog

              Yes Captain.. I went back to read the comments again. His father Don died in 2010.
              ( I had to turn down the music just too sad.. ) You want Scientology Reality? This is it!
              and just sucks.

              Mental Health Coupled with Boxing injuries to his Brain.. plus you know damn well the Crooks have taken every cent from him.. and they won’t give one shit when he dies.

              If he has a funeral. I want to attend. I wonder how many Scns will be there? He has given his life for AND to them.

            • Sherbet

              Not to relieve any of the cult’s guilt…I have to say that Dan’s mental issues have been at least partially blamed on boxing injuries.

            • Poison Ivy

              This is truly shocking. But not surprising. This is how you take a person and make a zombie out of them.
              The aggressiveness can be explained by the head injuries from boxing – the zombification not so much.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              If Leah Remini would give a national voice to the real families of scientology, like Claire Headley’s family, and Valessa Paris, and Laura Decrescenzo and Kyle Brennan and Derek Bloch…if she would tell Their stories, hold press conferences playing their videos…

              this could all be over tomorrow. That’s my dream of the month.

            • 0tessa

              The Mothers of Scientology … made me think of the Mothers in Argentina.

            • Peter

              Would also make a hell of a series!!!

            • Jgg2012

              They definitely are making a big mistake in picking on her. What if she drags Jaylo out with her, and Jaylo brings 2-3 of HER friends out, and so on. And they can financially start their own independent church, and say “we still believe in the tech, but not these tactics.”

          • Rob Kline

            This video needs more than the 1100 views it has gotten. Make sure to watch and spread it around. It has a great guerrilla propaganda feel that can be powerful in moving the emotional responses of people. Enough of a “tone” shift of the general populace the more difficult it will for the authorities to over look the more obvious illegal activities of the cult.

            • GlibWog

              Rob.. It has really shaken me to the core. My heart physically hurts. I have shared with many.. and asked they send it on also.
              I saw that Tory C. had commented .. Good .. She has good connections of course..as does Tony.

          • WildaBeast

            My wife just pointed out to me…the guy is punch-drunk, and this cult still sends him out to confront people and get up in their faces when he’s suffering from brain injuries. That’s just twisted. If they gave any kind of a shit at all about him they would never do that.

            • GlibWog

              One thing.. Wilda.. ( Pure speculation ) I’m sure that Dan got into big time trouble because he was mouthy and talkin on the tapes. He has spent more time in the hole than we can guess.

              So I don’t know how much confronting he is doing now.
              He was just silent on this one. Just so fuckin sad.. I can’t stop thinking about him. God only knows what the Scilooons are using him for now. Maybe confronts, but personally I doubt it.

        • sister wendy

          that is the truth…and if we are going to put something on T-shirt slogans, those would be great;) (side hobby- t-shirt slogans;) It is a slow death you don’t fully see until you leave….

    • GlibWog

      Hole.. I would Never in a million years tell a Scientologist or an EX that I know how they feel.. Cause I don’t. I have read and heard Horror stories… and my heart breaks over and over.

      I am sorry .. I just am so sorry. And that is why I come here. I hope all of you can feel the support of the
      Never Ins.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I left long ago, Glib, but because of location, was still around many still in. We did get some lovebombing some years back and put our toe in the water, and quickly learned the existing “reality” was plain and simply fascist.

        That became a serious problem for my husband and I a little more than 2 years back when Miscavige’s insanity rose to a new height. He got All leftover scientologists to disconnect from Anyone not a scientologist or thinking bad thoughts and he deputized All of them, even public, as first and foremost, Salesmen. I won’t go into details about how it impacted our lives, but it was severe. We are back on our feet, but lamenting the fact we can’t move (we’re in Florida) due to too many problems of doing so.

        When I found so many I had known had died so young, and the others now were no longer themselves after decades of this form of mental abuse, I had to do my grieving and raging but I’ve been at “acceptance” for awhile now. What I Don’t accept is our laws in the U.S. which must be changed. I’ve come to the conclusion the only real possible first step is changing the rules of 501c’s so that All must divulge their financial records. It’s a good start. And I am always amazed (and grateful) at those Never Ins who give a damn about this destructive cult as well as those who are sharing their stories. It’s just so bizarre, who would ever believe it? You can imagine why so many of us smile at the mere mention of Tony Ortega!

        • Poison Ivy

          I’ve seen 501C3 abuse rampant in other areas, too, THDNE, but never as blatant and massive a fraud as Scientology is.

          I was shocked to learn that it’s ridiculously easy to defraud the public as a 501C3. However, if the IRS does catch up with you, it’s the end of the line. (Again, unless you’re Scientology)

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            There will Have to be a separate, well funded and well staffed oversight group to review these financial records. As it is, the IRS admits they don’t have resources to even check the charities and only if someone complains and hands them docs on a silver platter. There are so many of them that I believe it would add up to far more than just scientology’s bundle of cash. There has to be enough $$$ fraud to get the politicians interested. But as far as I know, Hubbard, Miscavige and some their ringleaders have fine tuned fraud into an art so you are on the money about that.

        • GlibWog

          sigh.. Yes.. Tony has brought so many here from all walks of life. .. To me the one thing that those in the bunker have.. is compassion… for their fellow man.
          You know Hole. I know the pain of disconnection .. That is my Reality.

          My Daughter Disconnected from me last year .. She is 44. Not a Scn. She is the poster child for Narcissism. She is getting divorced and because I am still talking to her fabulous husband ( who is like a son to me after 15 years) she has cut me out of her life. I dared to say NO to her.

          He is the most loving man I have ever met. She just got Bored and found another. ( Which I could give a rat’s ass about.. ) but she wanted me to cut her devastated hubby out of my life. I wouldn’t. He has NO one else. Both of his parents are dead and he is the only child. He calls me mom.

          So much so that she requested during court hearings that I will not be allowed to ever see my 3 grandchildren. The Court immediately threw her ludicrous request out.
          I definitely relate to those who are disconnected from their loved ones ( forced or not)

          My Step daughter from an X is SCN.. but the pain wasn’t there because we weren’t close…and it was so long ago.
          But my daughter … I know Pain.

          • Orglodyte

            I just read this three times. So sad. I lost many loved ones when I left, but I had Scientology to blame, I knew it wasn’t them and many of them have come back to me when they figured out the con. This is heartbreaking. So glad the judge saw right through her! Hugs, GlibWog.
            “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” makes some sense. “The friend of my enemy is my enemy” is a cancer that eats your entire life.

            • GlibWog

              Thank you Orglodyte.. And others upvoting..

          • Sherbet

            So sorry, Glib.

            • GlibWog

              Thanks Sherbet : /

          • WildaBeast

            No words…only /hugs…I’m so sorry. I hope it somehow works out for the best, Glib.

            • GlibWog

              Thank you so much Wilda.. it does hurt.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Yeah, this is another fact of life. Family can fuck you up the most. I’ve had to hold a couple of “funerals” in my garden for a few family members who are physically alive but…
            Sorry for your loss. My other hope is someday science will catch up to Apple in breakthroughs like brain solutions! In the meantime, good for you on recognizing that family is not so much about DNA as it is compassion and love and comes in all sizes, shapes and foreign molecules. And fun, don’t forget fun! It is important too. Life’s too precious to waste on poison and poison is definitely not any fun.

            • GlibWog

              If you have ever seen ” Mildred Pierce ” my daughter is Veda. I have 2 daughters. My oldest is the epitome of Grace. My youngest was a difficult child, teenager, young adult etc. Self absorbed, selfish, destructive and hurtful.

              I take NO responsibility for this behavior. ( NONE) Her father is a narcissist ( was with him just a short time and had 2 kids by the age of 22).

              I always hoped she would grow out of it.. and she would see what she was doing as others around her would be used by her only to be discarded like used Kleenex. She would then move on to the next victim.

              Of course I mourn for her, but also recognize that I am mourning for a child that should have been.. Not was..

              And I will give all my love to those who love me back. Period. and yes.. having fun and coming here with my new Bunker Family.

            • 0tessa

              Have you read ‘The Fifth Child’ by Doris Lessing?

            • GlibWog

              Otessa.. No I haven’t.. Of course I have heard about it.. I always gravitate toward Non Fiction. Is it about Narcissism?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Understood! Quick…before Cap’n Howdy sees this and does you know what….this page needs some double hugs.

              http://i44.tinypic.com/2zsmmht.jpg

            • GlibWog

              Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww so sweet.. Hole.. that is precious..

              One of the reasons I come here.. is because I understand about the pain that disconnection brings to others..and how EVIL the Cult is to force it.. Sickening..

              I love my hugs.. all my family and friends live so far away… so I’ll take hugs anywhere I can find them ( HUGS)

            • Sherbet

              Since a puppy is involved, Howdy would get past the cute factor. Howdy sure loves animals. Right-o, Cap?

            • Captain Howdy

              A dog and a bear. I approve. Plus i have never criticized a comment for being too cute. I just roll my eyes, gag, and scroll on.

              And yes, I luv my Anipals http://youtu.be/EdHVgDEZOFY

            • stillgrace

              Well, then, if you loves anipals, here’s another “double hug” just for you. I promise, bunker, last meme for the day. Unless something REALLY irresistible comes up.

            • TheLurkingHorror

              Love it!

            • GlibWog

              hahahha… Oh Captain.. Inside your tough exterior is a heart of mush.. You haven’t fooled anyone.

            • aquaclara

              Oh, Glibby, so glad you’re here, too. I wish your pain could go away with something simple. It’s so sad. Just wanted to let you know I’m thinking about you. And hope it gets better someday. HUGS

            • GlibWog

              Thank you Aqua.. I say the Serenity Prayer often. One thing I am proud of is that I am a realist. The greatest pain I experienced in my life is when my identical twin sister died 7 years ago.
              I survived that.. I will survive this. It is what it is and there is NOT a Damn thing I can do about it. I can’t change her.. I feel sorry for her because she will never know the feeling of GIVING Unconditional love.
              Oh Aqua.. don’t cry for me Argentina.. I am in a good place now. I am.. Just once in awhile I hear the stories here and it is only natural for me to think of my daughter.
              ( She may be a bitch, but she was my bitch..haha) I took it for as long as I could and said..
              ” ENOUGH..” She also has disconnected from her older sister for the same reason. So I have the love of my older daughter who would move into my womb if I let her..

            • aquaclara

              Hole’s Pic of the puppy and the teddy are all yours….
              Cheering for you amidst the tissues all around us!

            • GlibWog

              smooches..xo to all.. Had to take the cigarette out of my mouth..haha

            • Poison Ivy

              I wonder if narcissism has a genetic component? It’s at the root of so much of life’s misery.

              And you can’t change ’em. They can only change if they want to, and most of them don’t want to. Why should they want to? They believe the world conforms to their needs all the time.

              Many of us (speaking personally) have had bouts with the narcissitic elements of our personalities; the need to control, to win, to be applauded, etc. But that’s different from being a narcissist born.

              I’m sure you were an awesome Mom and this is just a reminder, we can’t ever control other people. Not even our own offspring. We can hoper to influence, but we can’t control.

            • GlibWog

              PI Experts have been debating the cause of Narcissistic Personality Disorder ( NPD) for years. Nature Vs. Nuture.
              Genetic? Possibly / Probable ( Her father)

              Parenting? There has been research that has identified:

              A) High Expectations ( N/A in my case)

              B) Over Pampering ( N/A in my case)

              C) Neglect/ Abuse ( Absolutely NOT in my Case)

              Many people think that Narcissists are Vain looking in the mirror type creatures. Dr. Phil did a show on Narcissism and showed that aspect of it and his phone lines blew up.

              This disorder causes so much Chaos and Polarizes families.. You are absolutely right.
              Thank God I have a Background in Mental Health to understand it.

          • sister wendy

            whoa- so sorry to hear this is your story Glib…prayers and love to you, my sister…

            • GlibWog

              Thanks Seeeeeeester.. xo I will take prayers too.

            • GlibWog

              Oh sister thank you. I commented earlier.. hmmm where did it go? hmmm this Disq drives me nuts..ha

            • sister wendy

              I saw it…isn’t Disqus just plain freaky weird?

          • q-bird

            Friend Glib, it feels so good to have you here.

            You share your life with as many people as you can.
            Loving, loving… as much as possible… all the way… in every way possible.
            I hear you.

            xo, q

            • GlibWog

              Ohhh Q thank you.. Now instead of feeling my pain.. I come to the Bunker to see what I can do to Bring this Cult Down..
              I will do anything.

          • Poison Ivy

            Bless you Glib. How wrenching it must be to have your own child do that to you. I’ve faced some pretty devastating betrayals in my life but I can’t even imagine.

            • GlibWog

              PI just wrenching.. absolutely wrenching.. Until I screamed at the top of my Lungs..
              ” FUCK THIS ” I have had 44 years of unacceptable hurtful behavior from this girl. I will NO longer be the puppet on her strings. I have had to smooth things over.. from the wreckage she has caused in her wake.
              and actually it was rather freeing when I got a Text from her saying, ” If you continue to see John I will NO longer be seeing you. ” and I responded .. ” Works for me. ”
              Instead of the usual.. ” Oh Honey.. Everything will be ok.. We’ve had fights before..You are my baby girl ( the usual mom stuff) Yackity smackity..
              I felt calmly detached and relieved… Thank you PI
              ( Doesn’t mean I don’t feel a Pang now and then) sigh.. but not constant.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I find it has helped me to look at certain things purely on a mental health level and science hasn’t figured it out yet. Then, it suddenly isn’t so Personal, anymore than if they had some other chronic condition. But when someone is destroying everyone and everything in sight, there comes a time for self protection of yourself and for the other people in your circle. Of course you still have Your feelings and you feel compassion, but there’s only so much one can do with where the science stands at the moment.

            • GlibWog

              Absolutely.. I agree 100% Hole… She is NOT DEAD to me. She is alive and she is my daughter. I wrote her an E mail and told her that my door would be open for her.

              The difference this time is that I will NOT allow her to hurt me. I know what being detached with love feels like. That part of our relationship is finished.

              I didn’t actually say ” Works for Me..” when she texted me. It was more like.. ” That is your decision. ” ( In the past I would have begged her ) .. Freeing feeling.

            • cicely neville

              You did exactly right. Brave woman!

            • Missionary Kid

              You’ve now refused to bow to emotional blackmail. It’s tough, but you’re now set boundaries. At least you’re not subject to her toxic manipulations.

              I wish you the best.

            • GlibWog

              Thank you Kid.. The worst is over.. Boundaries set.. and Yep no more Manipulation.. Thank you so much.. xo

            • Missionary Kid

              With the freedom comes sadness, but also the realization that you can’t live her life for her. It really is her choice, no matter how much she will try to shift responsibility to you.
              xo.

            • GlibWog

              Yes KId.. sigh.. I can’t.. and yes sadness. Her choice! Absolutely 100% Again Thank you. xo

          • Rita Gregory

            Sorry Glib. Pain with a capital P is the best way to describe it when it’s your child causing the pain. Hugs.

            • GlibWog

              Rita.. I saved my daughter’s life many times.. Because I stopped myself from Strangling her.. xox ((HUGS)) back.

          • cicely neville

            Please accept heartfelt sympathy and support, dear Glib.

            • GlibWog

              Thank you Cicely..xo

          • MissCandle

            I am sorry.

            • GlibWog

              Thank you Candle.. xox

        • aquaclara

          So sorry, Hole, for this. It is unbelievably sad to see the hurt, and the waves of repercussions from disconnection. Glad you are both back on your feet, even though it sounds like things are still complicated. Huge hugs to you, and with more stuff getting out there, plus some lawyers who are not afraid of the cult, it could end – hopefully soon.

          I agree wholeheartedly about the non-profit regulations that are needed. And likely at the federal level, where it would do the most good. I don’t know if you know this, but the City of Clearwater tried in 1984 to require large non-profits that had hired help – not just volunteers – to register and provide some basic information about a group’s fundraising.

          The Church of Scientology took the city to court on the basis that it violated their first amendment rights. After 11 long years of battling this, the city lost.

          What was the city asking for? Some pretty elementary stuff. An estimate of what a charity hoped to collect, plus a listing of costs involved, including salaries. With this, we would know how much the Super Power building actually raised and how much it actually cost.

          A description of what the funds would go towards, plus when it would be paid out. The Garcias would have liked this, too.

          Oh, and the names and contact info of those in charge of collecting, managing and disbursing the funds. Even if their address is “the Hole”. It would have been a good law.
          The city lost the will to take this stuff on after a while. Local tax dollars were being eaten alive by court costs and legal bills, not to mention the decline in businesses and revenue that hit at the same time.
          I have hopes that the IRS will get to tackle this at some point. It’s sorely needed.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I didn’t know about this one. Thanks. It’s definitely going to take federal muscle. Of course, Miscavige is getting so cray cray or greedy or both that he angered the giant gods of insurance and credit card institutions. Big huge friggin’ crack in the dike there.

            • WildaBeast

              Not really pro-survival behaviour, is it?

    • aquaclara

      THDNE, this is so sad. I can’t help but wonder about the amount of fear used to shape someone’s mindset to the point that this all seems so ok.

      I could never cut my mother, or my husband, or a brother out of my life. I love them too much to ever see that happen. We might disagree from time to time over silly things like the best route to take home, or to the airport. But we always talk. I couldn’t cut off my dog, who also happens to be wonderful, even though he was chasing rabbits again yesterday.

      Suppressing all those thoughts and feelings can’t be good for one’s mental or physical health….ironic, ain’t it, in that cult that tells everyone it’s THEIR own fault. Damn cult.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        It didn’t Always used to be This fanatical, aqua. You hear some of us Old Timers talk about better days. Most members would save up a long time or take out a manageable loan. They’d set up a week to 10 days to go to an org for some auditing. Those who wanted to be auditors did so as a university type of schedule and experience. They could earn a living in the field.

        Events were down home, sometimes bring your own dish, live music by locals (there were Always scientology musicians in every city I went to) and a little bit of “news” at first but then it was just a fun get together, discussions with many diverse and interesting people, not at all unlike here!
        Sea Org formation seems to be one of those critical moments for the worse in its history, but it didn’t touch the local orgs like it does today.

        The reality then was we could improve ourselves and then help others with their problems of learning, or relationship problems, or problems with their jobs or careers. Yes, there was the carrot and the Imagination of OT powers and it was very exciting and crazy. But the day to day reality was just helping in little ways. Honest. I think is was Tobin or Childs of the St Pete Times (now Tampabay) that spoke of the core of scientology being like a cancer.

        It is close enough to the truth. I believe scientology died several years ago when Miscavige wished all the auditors into the cornfield, and turned all the remains into ATM’s. I believe all we are seeing today is the decay. Gruesome stuff.

        • shasha40

          That’s what makes it all the more heartbreaking , because Scientologist really do want to help others, that’s a noble cause . It takes wonderful people and turns them into husks , mere shells of who they could have been without the tech ..

        • aquaclara

          I do see part of this – that many joined Scientology with a huge desire to help others. But the con game began a very long time ago. There was significant damage done even in 1975 in Clearwater, to harass so many good people and go out of their way to destroy families, ruin businesses and drag everything through the courts for as long as possible – starting with a complete lie before the cult ever even came to town. Mayor Gabe Cazares was a very good man, with an excellent reputation. And the cult set out to completely wreck his life.

          I remember seeing the moms and dads unsuccessfully trying to get in touch with their sons and daughters. In response, the cult refused to even open a door or acknowledge that a family member was in there. Disconnection happened back then, too. And then even a group formed to try to help people get their families out of the cult was taken over by the cult, taking away even remote feelings of hope that something might work.
          The lying, the mistruths, the scores of calls to the police that were documented as coming from Flag, only to be told that there was no problem all existed in the ’70’s and the ’80’s.

          The Sea Org members had the spooky stares, and no smiles, much like now. And the children never laughed. So I don’t know when the “good old days” were….I don’t think it was ever really there.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Yes, Flag has its own unique history, although the PAC area is very similar. But this is where the Sea Org fanaticism entered in, and yes it was always there. It’s just the lower orgs and missions weren’t as disturbed b y them, but eventually took over. But I can assure you it was Totally different in some of these outer orgs and missions. Some of the California branches were a bit more in reach so they went down first.

            I used to travel to all the orgs and missions in several countries, most in the U.S. though and that’s how I know. Plus I had my own newbie experiences early on in an outer org.

            The greed became predominant early on in the 80’s and Sea Org staff were constantly up in orgs’ business by then and more and more got stationed there permanently. It was downhill from there. Occasionally I’ve since heard of a few orgs doing well, but these are in countries where the sea ogres don’t have as much reach or in the U.S. someone in charge has a lot of clout (and who knows, likely blackmail) to keep the wolves at bay. But success in any org is it’s death knell. A Sea Org mission then gets sent in to see how they’re doing it, and of course, change everything and when it all goes to hell start screaming orders and threatening everyone in sight and that’s the end of that org. Damn, I am writing way too much today in this thread. But I wanted you to see how your experiences around Flag are correct, but it doesn’t apply to the outer “branches” in the early decades. Oh, and there was still crap going on with some people, Anywhere, at Any time, but it was the minority and kept very well hidden. I am just finding out much of it only recently!

            • Candygram

              Very interesting. It sounds like sea org is comprised of grunts and those promoted to middle mgt. my favorite part is the term “sea ogres.” Seems apt.

          • Exterrier

            I’m sure you are correct. But apparently there was an illusion of good times that could be maintained for a while for those who were not looking too closely, or did not get caught up in the sea org and family disconnection issues. Lots of things are like that in this world, or we would not have veterans halls and war stories, I think. Camaraderie has an allure. I suspect there was looser management when Hubbard was in hiding and the Missionaires ran free for a while. But your observations should dispel the notion that it was all messed up by Miscavage. All the manipulation and evil disconnection and other seeds of fascism were installed by Ron, and as Jon Atack states in bold letters, never forget that Ron knew exactly what he was doing. When I was in in the nineties, it did not take too long that there were some real dark undercurrents. This blog is still enlightening me to just how dark they were and are. Scientology…..Its worse than you can imagine certainly applies.

        • Exterrier

          So honest and fair, your posts. I saw the misty eyes of the old timers when I would ask them to remember when it was last good for them. An adventure in self improvement and exploration, poetry, guitars, a bit of mystery and intrigue. It sounded like it was fun and enticing for a while. They used to say, “if its not fun, its not Scientology”, believe it or not. And their were quotes up on the walls about maintaining “Spirit of Play”. Under it all Ron was a master manipulater and sick man, but under Little Chuckie “the Spirit of Bullying and Extortion” has set in, with creepy Idle Morgues replacing the buzzing bustling mission franchises and their self help orientation. And as Scientology matured, and people finally climbed up the empty OT levels, the delusion of all those axioms and redefined reality began to dominate the self help aspects.

        • sister wendy

          thank you again….so perfect, this description….

        • Peter

          You described what it was like to perfection prior to the late 70s, early 80s. Yes, there was a lot of crap going on behind the scenes, but most of it was totally removed from the day to day existence of the orgs and, especially, the Missions. It was a sad day when the SO missionaires began arriving. I can recall the theory the org staff had that Hubbard had created the SO specifically to attract all the SPs and be able to keep his eye on them. Little did we know. LOL

    • Poison Ivy

      Powerful, Hole. Your explanations of how Scientology looks from the inside are just devastating.

      • GlibWog

        Absolutely Devastating..

    • shasha40

      Beautifully said Hole , they are trying so hard to each the next level on the bridge , becoming ” clear ” or OT is their only goal . You family and friends are just PTS’s and the only loyalty is to LRH , a poor excuse for a sci-fi writer, BIGGEST LIAR IN THE UNIVERSE and drug addict amongst many other flaws. All those things would be fine with me, to each his own. But when you intentionally build a system who’s only purpose ( yeah, to save the Planet ),is to systematically set up to rob humans of their humanity, lively hood , family , friends etc, with only the very top benefiting , that would be you tiny dick, now you have crossed the line. I’ve never been in but I have read the accounts of the brave people and felt their pain . I am totally going to enjoy the day when Scientology is only heard of in the history books .Tick , Tock Td ….

      • ThetaBara

        Honestly, he makes drug addicts look bad!

    • Exterrier

      Hole, this is the sad, sad truth. I see the shrinking people wither away. I know a lovely lady who ages sadly, and cries on holidays. And I also know so many childless couples, cringing from the ringinf telephone, frightened for their eternities.
      So eloquently and tragically stated.

    • sister wendy

      yup….thanks for saying it so boldly….one could scale those experiences on a 1-10 and we’d all have some of them during our tenure…sometimes still….wow…didn’t see that one coming…thanks

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Yeah, you don’t see This in any scientology brochures. 🙂

        • sister wendy

          hahaha…..sort of laughing…sort of not;)

    • joan nieman

      That was a very powerful statement TheHoleDoesNotExist . It blew me away at the profound truthfulness of those very emotions.

    • Conditioner

      It hit me hard too! So concisely and exactly expressed. So much of me is in it. Thoughts and feelings I’ve had for a very long time after lumbering about trying to get a bead on my own life. Spending hours and hours trying to figure out WTF he was talking about.

      There IS no real social life because Hubbard never had one. Who were his close buddies over the years? Who did he hang out with when running a religion got a bit much? Does anyone know if Reg Sharpe was a pal or a gofer?

      Jumping at a phone ringing or an email address popping onto the screen? Jesus! Two of the greatest humanitarian inventions were the spam and call blocker. I’m alive today because of them.

      They are lousy family and friends. That’s huge and so fucking true. The few remaining “family members” would drop me like a hot load entheta if they knew I was posting here. But, knowing that, I still feel compelled to maintain the sham of friendship with them. It’s so freedom making to actually read someone else saying the above. This is deep core shit – ground zero.

      TDNE – your post should be required reading at the front of every cult book.

      I consider you an essential member of my newly forming fellowship.

      And Tony, thanks for providing the forum where these things can be said.

      Sign up now for the Ortega Life Improvement Course. It’s free.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I really appreciate hearing this. I still feel like there are so few left, if they just Knew there were so few left, that if All the public just walked out or stayed away now, no support of any kind, that would be it. The staff would have noone to reg or to hassle. They would start to leave too. There are only a few left still holding up the tent so to speak. I feel for ‘ya being torn between a rock and a hard place. Hang in there and keep reading. It can only help. And yes, Tony rocks.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Wow! I always wanted to see photo of Alexis! And they do look happy! Thank you, THDNE.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I swiped these not long ago when they showed up on ESMB. Darn, at the moment I forget who posted them.

        • WildaBeast

          It’s happening already I think, gathering momentum. Those who have been in for a while are full of doubt, and as for those coming in…well, most google searches on Scientology-related topics put up warnings and sites like this way before actual Scientology sites. They’re losing more members than they’re gaining. It’s awful that it doesn’t happen faster, because every day till it blows up/implodes/collapses, the people in it are being hurt…but it IS happening.

        • Conditioner

          Wow, what great pics. So much life and love. Thanks!
          Picnics, BBQs, and parties were the entertainment order of the day. I can tell you, some of those parties were Hot(mid 60s). It was just life as normal with some Scientology thrown in. Where you were on the bridge was not a license to exist and be recognized back then. If you were an auditor you may get first slice of the apple pie but that’s it. We all just dug each other. That carried into the Scn workplace.
          Although I came in to find out more about Dianetics, it was the fellowship that existed that was my main attraction. And I think that was probably true for many of us. When Hubbard began issuing those first ethics policy letters (March 65) was when the curtain began to fall. There was a chill than ran through the whole org staff. (Jesus, I could spend hours writing about this period.) Just to say, as a metaphor, we heard the sound of the first jackboots marching in the street. But there was so much good cheer and friendliness about, it took another 10 years for the fear, suspicion, and betrayals to get under way across the planet, for real.

      • GlibWog

        Conditioner.. Welcome, Welcome.. Just keep on reading.. Talk about a Rabbit’s Hole, huh..
        (( Hugs)) to you. . Great Post!

      • Lark Smith

        Welcome Conditioner! I hope you are a frequent visitor here and gain some solace, comic relief, and insight while here. There are great folks posting here. ((more hugs))

        • Conditioner

          Thanks, Lark. There really is a lot of kind, thoughtful and really smart folks here. Their comments have done a lot in helping me to decompress.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Thank you for being here, Conditioner. We got your back. Wishing you luck!

        • Conditioner

          You’re welcome, Dodo. Thanks for your good thoughts.

      • Rex

        Great post!!! Welcome! Nice having you here!

        • Conditioner

          Thanks, Rex. Life saving being here.

      • Missionary Kid

        It’s free, but I’m sure Tony would say that donations are welcome, but not required.

    • cicely neville

      Wow, honey. I take it that you are not exaggerating.
      “To take everything and give nothing in return; that’s what really delights Our Father’s heart”, says the elder demon in ‘The Screwtape Letters’. You’ve just given a very finished description of Hell.

    • Lark Smith

      THDNE that was very insightful, funny, and heartbreaking. I’m so glad you are here with us at the Bunker. The understanding you bring to readers here is simply priceless- Thank you! and I send you a great big hug because you so deserve it.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Whoa… Thank you for this post, THDNE. Things we lived through…

    • Rex

      Sometimes, all it takes is having a few beers with a buddy, and giving them the opportunity to pat you on the back and call bullshit on something in your life. Just call a spade a spade. Not much opportunity for that when a SCN is working 100 hours a week. That social isolation helps maintain the iron curtain.

  • richelieu jr

    Silly Rabbi!

    Kicks are for Trids!

  • Foxrenard

    Arrrrgghhhh!!!!!! I developed a complete comment on reality and I touched without purpose the f….ing pad on my notebook with my little finger and it reloaded the page and all my comment vanished!!!!! I had just one last sentence to add before posting!!!! I am too lazy to rewrite the complete post because words have to be put in the same order to explain my theory!!! Argh, argh and arghhhh!!!!

    • Missionary Kid

      To mess up, it takes a human, to really fuck up, it takes a computer.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Channeling Mark Twain?

        • Missionary Kid

          No. It’s a saying that’s been around in many variations for a long time. Perhaps the person who first said it stole it from Twain.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Love my Mark Twain and this was his kind of wit. Here’s some of his quotes, this page on religion. just for his lulz, it’s worth reading the twain.

            http://www.twainquotes.com/Religion.html

            • Missionary Kid

              He was wary of what the public would do if they knew his true attitude on religion. That’s why Lstters to the Earth wasn’t published until years after his death because his daughter thought that people would object to it.

              In his other writings, particularly his travelogues, he would often have a different character express his personal views on religion, particularly Christianity.

              I’d like to see Val Kilmer’s portrayal of Twain.

          • ThetaBara

            No way, dude. Mark Twain totally said that on the internet, right after Al Gore invented it!

            “The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine.” – Abraham Lincoln

    • marti

      Do it again. We’ll wait.

    • Observer

      My sympathies. What I’ve started doing is, if I’m writing a lengthy response on my iPad or phone is copying it periodically until I’m done. That way I can just paste it back in if something happens.

      • sister wendy

        you’re so smart!

        • Observer

          Not so much smart as the voice of bitter experience. 😉

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Aha! So you admit to being bitter? Well then, have you seen my frock? Still searching after all these years.

            • sister wendy

              since we are all bitter apostates, we can’t really help ourselves, can we? 😉

          • 1subgenius

            How do you get good judgement? Experience.
            How do you get experience? Bad judgement.

          • sister wendy

            super modest too…and wait…I bet you do great shoops;)

    • Once_Born

      If you use the “Firefox” browser (possibly Google Chrome too) there is a brilliant extension for it called “Lazarus”.

      If you wipe out text that you entered into a web form due to an accidental refresh, you can restore it with a right-click or two ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/ ).

      This little program has saved me many an arghhhhh!!!!!

      • ThetaBara

        Lazarus… back from the dead to tell all!

    • Robert Eckert

      Now if you were a Scientologist, you would just postulate that when you reloaded the page, the comment was posted to the world. The fact that you can’t see it would be just one of those niggling cognitive dissonances that you would make yourself not think about: who has time for entheta? Otherwise you’d have to talk about that enturbulation with your auditor, who would tell you that you obviously pulled it in, and ask what crime you had committed to cause this. That sounds expensive.

  • aquaclara

    Seems like the only reality in Scientology is concocted. First, push everyone to go along with the babble, with rigidly conforming behaviors and language. Apply an overlay of net nannies, Delphi schools, and Basics sets. And finally, utterly destroy anything that challenges the imposed “reality.”
    Ta-da! Out pops a precisely-molded plastic Barbie or Ken doll that waves or walks only when you direct it.

    • tetloj

      A Barbie capable of professional zombie decorations no less…

      • Robert Eckert

        …once David Miscavige has torn the Barbie’s head off.

  • Wonderful analysis Jon, your input on this subject is greatly appreciated. There’s definitely a lot to think about in what you’ve said here today.

  • Krew13

    If Karen Kapouw ever leaves the Sciloons, will they have someone on standby to call her a bitter defrocked apostate?

    • BosonStark

      At this point, if she escaped, I think she’ll have to call herself a defrocked apostate. Right now, she’s still the cult spokescreature in absentia.

      I hope Pat Harney gets some TV time around the super power opening because she’s such a robot. It’ll be funny.

    • ThetaBara

      But of course. Some folks think that Davey is already using her letterhead, as she hasn’t been visible in some time.

  • Cat Daddy
    • Captain Howdy

      Hubbard explaining to the marks how he’s going to screw them.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        You can spot an Ex scientologist by the 1″ thick callous on their foreheads … from slapping it with every Doh!

    • Rex

      “And we get one of the fundamental tricks of the agent saboteur, which is ‘change the meaning of the word, don’t change the word.’ Define it differently. You could take a whole people, and bankrupt them – of any freedom or civil liberty – simply by changing the definitions, don’t change the words.”

      -LRH, starting at 1:15 of the lecture

  • Observer

    Black Rob’s WWP thread illustrates this edition of the Bunker in a way that manages to be simultaneously hilarious, tragic, mind-blowing, infuriating and pathetic. He has numerous FB sockpuppets and has infiltrated Scn FB groups with them, taking and posting screenshots of Scientologists’ conversation among themselves. He is also trying to enturbulate them out of Ron’s “reality”. It’s worth taking the time to read the whole thing, lengthy as it is.

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/i-have-a-thetan-who-does-things-to-my-mirror-and-its-annoying-what-should-i-do.105033/

    • aquaclara

      and brilliantly funny reading….

    • GlibWog

      I love Black Rob.. Whenever I need a laugh I go over and read.. Just Cra Cra to the max.. sigh..

    • WildaBeast

      I went and read the first few pages, then I had to go out. I came back and my wife was on page 9. It’s…yeah, I think your list of adjectives said it best, Observer. But oh God, some of it is so FUNNY.
      “I found two random streaks on my mirror so I cleaned it. I looked again and there were 50 streaks. A thetan is doing things to my mirror, guys, how do I get rid of it?”
      Or…you just did a really crap job of cleaning your mirror?!

  • junojones

    Reality can be so plastic, especially when someone you consider an authority tells you something about your world ‘in earnest’. I’ve used this story before as illustration, but it has always stuck with me.
    In 1989 I was living in sight of Seattle’s Space Needle. That April 1st, some DJs on one of the radio stations decided to have some fun by announcing that the needle had collapsed. About noon, one of our neighbors panicked and ran to our apartment, almost in tears. The needle had collapsed. How did she know? DJs on the radio said so and she couldn’t see it when she looked out her window (also facing the needle).

    I’ll never forget talking her down. It was like the woman who locked herself in the bathroom and threatened suicide during HG Well’s War of the Worlds broadcast. In contrast to the woman who saw the spaceships, this one couldn’t see the space needle.

    This was a single woman responding to a single prank. I can’t imagine what one could do to actual perception by using hypnosis, biofeedback and group psychology.

    • sister wendy

      well- remember what Orson Wells did War of the Worlds. My dad remembered when that happened, and said it scared the shit out of everyone…it’s amazing what people can believe…what we all can believe given the “right” environment…

      • Here’s a link to Steve Allen’s first-hand account of his experience that night.

        In a room on the eighth floor of the Hotel Raleigh, an ancient and
        run-down hostelry on Chicago’s Near North Side that was our home that
        year, I was lying on the floor reading a schoolbook. Feeling in the mood
        for background music, I turned on our radio, fiddled with the dial
        until I heard dance music, and returned to my book. In the adjoining
        room Aunt Margaret and my mother were playing cards.

        After a moment the music was interrupted by a special “flash” from the
        CBS News Department—the authenticity of which there was not the
        slightest reason to doubt—to the effect that from his observatory a
        scientist had just detected a series of mysterious explosions of a
        gaseous nature on the planet Mars. After this fascinating bit of
        intelligence, the announcer said, “And now we return you to the program
        in progress,” and music was heard once more.

        • sister wendy

          wow….

        • Lunatic Posse

          On October 29, 2013, the PBS documentary series American Experience will examine The War of the Worlds broadcast on the eve of its 75th anniversary.

  • Sherbet

    I just popped in a few minutes ago. Hiram seems articulate, although we don’t agree with him. Why are we picking on him? Let the guy talk!

    • Captain Howdy

      Who’s picking on him? I haven’t seen anybody call him names..yet. Just people disagreeing with his original comment. His “hate and bigotry” claim is typical scientologist-like deflection.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        standing behind the Cap’n on this one.

        • Captain Howdy

          Ooh-rah!

      • Sherbet

        OK, sorry. I thought it was going to get personal, and I hate that. Carry on.

  • Exterrier

    “Just remember, its not a lie…..if you believe it!”…. George from Seinfeld.

    • Sherbet

      I always thought it wasn’t a lie if you could convince someone it wasn’t.

  • Artoo45

    “What’s true is what’s true for you” is simply Hubbs’ version of the classic New Age axiom, “You create your own reality.” This is often used to beat the living crap out of the adherent if the the cult that spews it fails in some way. You “mocked up” that cancer or “pulled it in.” This is also known as “you deserved it.” Utter bullshit. One may take actions that are detrimental to one’s health and pay the price, but we’re talking about random misfortune that one has zero control over. In my New Age addled days I found a sort of relief from existential angst (my ruin) by thinking that I knew the right things to think and do to keep me healthy and prosperous in the world. I was lucky that I never needed a doctor or was ever really sick in those days I depended on homeopathy and vitamins for my healthcare. I was what we call “the worried well” and the worried well are a massive cash cow for quacks and charlatans . . . and cults.

    OT, I just saw Elysium last night. Not great, but some terrific FX eye-candy and one performance stood out in particular. The character of Carlyle is the greatest imitation of Cali’lgula I’ve yet seen. He could have been a bit more violent, but hey, nobody’s perfect. When we make the first great movie of the history of Scientology, maybe we can get this guy to play His Imperial Teensyness, we’ll have to employ shrinkifying FX to render him the right size, but the kids are doing terrific stuff with their fancy computer-boxes these days . . .

    • villagedianne

      Cults use “you create your own reality” to beat people up, or have members beat themselves up. This is an all too common misuse of the philosophy. Benign groups and practitioners do not focus on blame, as that just adds to the negativity. Instead they focus on raising the person’s energies, or analyzing and working on the underlying assumptions about life that brought about the event. Yes many New Age groups believe that in a cosmic sense you create your own reality, through your own thoughts and your accumulated karma. But benign groups don’t use this to induce guilt and blame. Especially – benign groups don’t use it to extort money from you.
      Yes there are benign groups and practitioners. They are often not that well known. They don’t have large amounts of money and they don’t exploit people, so they pretty much operate under the radar.

      • Artoo45

        I spent many years as a spiritual gadfly and can say from experience that “benign” is a relative term. Especially if you don’t seek medical help when you actually need it. Working for Whole Life Expos for years gradually disabused me of my magical thinking. Watching people rise through the ranks of the New Age lecture circuit showed that no matter how much they thought they were humble and spiritual, to a person, they would turn into divas as their followers increased and their paychecks swelled. It’s human nature, power corrupts. Period.

        • villagedianne

          There are divas in every field, Law, politics, medicine, etc. Not surprising to hear that there are divas in the New Age movement as well. Power is a test of character. Having said that, I don’t know if the New LIfe Expo, fun as it may be to explore, is the best place to find help. In some years Scientology has had a table in the New Life Expo in my city. I guess anyone who has money to rent a booth can get in. It’s a good place probably to get a water filter or some crystals. Word of mouth seems to me to be a better source for spiritual help. Not every group or practitioner is wealthy.

      • Yes, I once spoke to a local shaman and he stated that he shows people what they need to do, and that’s it. He’s not like a golf pro whom you take lessons from every week in order to improve your game.

  • Xique

    The only insight in Scientogy is “Ron is right.” Perfectly put Jon.

  • Noah Miller

    Marcab.

    • sister wendy

      could I get a barbie body?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        You’re asking for anorexia? I’m asking the Marcabian Santa for Melissa Gate’s body…as long as it comes with all those accessories.

        • Just remember that she comes with G. I. Joe.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I’ll stick with vaults of cash and a worldwide friends network of humanitarians and geniuses any day, but especially today when my G.I. concerns are best left to my doctor.

            • Sherbet

              Oh, gosh, TH, you had to remind me I’m having a colonoscopy on Wednesday…

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Oh no. Well, Sherb, just ask for drugs and it’s no big deal. Okay, the preps are no fun, but the process itself is just fine, so my hubby says, after he woke up.

            • Sherbet

              :-/

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Oh, and have a big old chocolate shake or veggie juice, preferably some protein in it, in a thermos to keep cold. You will be Starving afterward and will be glad it’s there.

            • Sherbet

              Oooh, a Wendy’s Frosty might be just the thing!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Hah! That’s Exactly what my husband requested. We don’t do sugar in my kitchen, but of course I had his Frosty waiting.

            • I had one a while back, and the Valium didn’t really affect me, except that I was kind of woozy and everything else was smooth sailing, they didn’t find anything. Hope you can say the same about yours.

          • sister wendy

            I could make that work;)

        • sister wendy

          I just like the long legs, no bad hair days and no cellulite.. Also the ability to look cute in an apron would be nice;) I could eat as many cookies as I want and my plastic body would stay the same (!) hahahaha….this is of course a giant: NOT;)

          • Poison Ivy

            Except gravity would dictate that you would fall over every time you tried to walk…

            • sister wendy

              not if I’m living in Theo’s reality;) haha! Then I could just defy gravity- that would be my reality. How convenient is that;)

    • Poison Ivy

      Beautiful graphics!

    • GlibWog

      I already have the perfect body statistics
      48- 26- 36 …( Oh but not necessarily in that order) bawwwwwhahahhaa

  • Exterrier

    Jon Atack is so, so right. Ron’s cosmology is really based upon Ronworld redefinitions of words and terms. By his own definition of things he has set up a sort of tautological universe where he is “source”, and thus is always right. Once you buy into it a little bit, just to get along, and to get past the boring tedious and repetitive course or process you are on, state your win to the examiner, and move up to the next course that will be the real one to change your life….. then you have entered LRon’s twilight zone world. Even when he contradicts himself he is right. Reality is agreement…..and you must agree that he is Source to move even an inch in Scientology.
    Dwarfenfeurer is just catching a free ride by piggy backing himself on the ronworld merry go round. In reality the horses and elephants and camels chasing and racing so fast are just fixed statues that are not moving a bit, and once you fall off or are kicked off that “agreed to Reality”, you lie dazed for a long time on the fairgrounds dirt watching all your friends spinning madly around sitting on a fake menagerie of redefined words and made up science. And you see some dazed zombie like people running alongside it and tripping on each other, wishing they could still be on board the spinning antique…..those we call Indies. It will take them a wile to stop their heads from spinning.
    Can you hear the calliope playing kids? The ghostly echo of a creaky twentieth century amusement device as its rusty gears grind slower and slower, and the wobbly bearings cause it to sway and tilt perilously as the music winds down in eerie fits and starts. It is near the end of the ride….. watch out for little Chuckie Miscabbage!

    • Satansthetan

      Epic post! Great images, thank you for that!

    • sister wendy

      what Satan said….

    • Once_Born

      “Ron’s cosmology is really based upon Ronworld redefinitions of words and terms”.

      This was the purpose behind “Newspeak” the ‘revised’ English language created by the oppressive ruling party in George Orwell’s “1984”. They reasoned that, if you reduced the vocabulary and changed the meanings of words, eventually the people would not have the linguistic tools to even imagine questioning the powers-that-be.

      Scientology uses this tactic, and it’s just as well that it only works a little – and that only when people are completely cut off from the wider world.

    • WhereIsSHE

      “…redefined words and made up science.”
      ^^^^1000x^^^^

      (Plus a FAKE NAVY.)

      • ThetaBara

        It’s the Damnation Navy!

    • Sidney18511

      LRH went from writing science-fiction to writing fictional-science and BOOM the money came rolling in.

    • cicely neville

      Lovely writing. ‘ronworld’ – excellent!

    • DodoTheLaser

      Tautology (rhetoric), a self-reinforcing pretense of significant truth.

      Nice to learn something new. Thank you, Exterrier. Great post too.

      Ever considered to become a writer? If not, you probably should.

      • Exterrier

        Thanks, Do. Songwriter I am, with a bit of a knack for these visions and runs of lucidity at three am or so. As this all unravels it becomes the stuff of Orwell, Serling, Shakespeare all rolled into one. And way more tragic than amusing, but the drama and even the depth of the delusion and even evil are certainly compelling, as all us Bunker addicts can attest. You all and Tony and his guests have educated me so well about the group that I got caught up in for a while. I could never be one of the dazed spinning indies circling the carousel, thanks to you.

    • GlibWog

      Exterrier.. fabulous analogy .. Brilliant. ( and scary.. ) It sounds like Stephen King wrote it..eeeeeep

  • Roger Larsson

    A thought making someone good is a thought. If the thought isn’t good it’s still a thought. To think about $cientology is to think about $cientology making money, money and money instead of very good indicators and happy smiles. The truth is that people make smiles. Money is made on the outside of scientology and not in this dry desert.

  • Captain Howdy

    When I read “Incident l” like 5 years ago, everything Jon says was right there.

    First there was the Thetaverse and the Thetans were born, and through shared agreement and control of MEST (superpowers) they created other universes and then they created the MEST universe so they could assume physical form and have a playground to play “games’ in and enjoy the pleasures of the flesh..but eventually they forgot all this.

    And I thought to myself… “Hey, isn’t this a Star Trek or Outer Limits episode?”

  • sister wendy

    great talk. I can see I was a “squirrel” from the beginning. It was weird to me to call his writings “scriptures”. On the other hand, some of the stuff quantum physics and noetic science seems to fit some of what he describes…at some times anyway…always wondering how that all jives together

    • Artoo45

      Abuse of quantum theory is abuse of quantum theory no matter how it’s packaged. IONS is just more kool aid of a different flavor. At least their leader really did pass through the Van Allen belts, sadly it doesn’t make him any less batsh*t crazy.

    • ThetaBara

      Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

      • sister wendy

        haha!

  • 0tessa

    Wearing ID badge now mandatory for Scientologists when attending events. Security Dept is going paranoid.
    See Mike Rinder’s blog.

    • WhereIsSHE

      Aaaaaaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
      Paranoid–and for good reason!!
      WE’RE OUT TO GET YOU, DAVEY!!!!!!!!
      COUNT ON US!!!!!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Used to have to show an IAS membership card, at least at Flag and this was oh, 10 years ago. But yeah, the paranoia is striking deep in this one.

        We Outnumber Your Flying Monkeys now by 1000 to 1, Davey boy. This time it’s not paranoia. This time….you just never know who’ll be serving subpoenas these days.

  • cdub

    My ten years in Scn was certainly an exercise in realities (plural)! As Atack explains it, there is a big problem with reality being what a group agrees on. Quite apart from Scn, and very recently, I learned how easy it is to fool people into believing one thing or another and I was pretty shocked because I’d previously thought that I had some special insight into this subject. We’re always learning something.

    • villagedianne

      We are bamboozled all the time by media, education, and politics, and of course religion. The New York Times said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And of course Clinton never had sex with that woman.

      • Sidney18511

        But….when Bush lied to the American people about there being no warning regarding 9/11 (there was plenty) and the big lie about WMDs, THOUSANDS of Americans and a HUNDRED THOUSAND Iraqis DIED. Clinton, well Clinton just got a BJ. No comparison. None.

        • ze moo

          Iraqis lost 1/4 of a million between invasion and the 10 years of US occupation. Saddam Husein killing 1 million Iranians in the long Iran-Iraq war. Between chemical weapons used on the Kurds and lack of supplies and food due to sanctions, Saddam killed at least 1/2 million of his own people. All of the ‘weapons of mass destruction’ crowd, (bush, cheney, rumsfield) have laid very low since they left office. ‘Bush lied and people died’ is, in my mind, quite true.

        • villagedianne

          I agree. You won’t get any argument from me there. I was trying to show that both sides lie. The example I probably should have used is how the Democrats lied to get us into the Vietnam War.

  • ze moo

    ‘Cosmology’ is the study of origins and evolution of the physical universe. Asking anyone to ‘agree’ or describe the universe is like asking 10 blind men to describe an elephant. Each culture tries to describe the universe and each persons relationship to it. Getting so many to agree on anything that esoteric is what gives us organized religions and philosophies.

    Asking me to accept that Lroon’s immortal being {thetan} has been a race car driver, rocket jockey and war hero is just too much stretching of the imagination. Even imagination can smell bullshit and while it can be fun in a dream or literature, you should not base your life around such things. Like most things in life, use the kindergarten rules, play nice and clean up your messes. Lroon did neither and as ‘source’ he can’t clean up his messes. I’ll go play on the jungle jim now…..

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    Scientology’s cosmology is about the big picture.

    Time Track Bulletin #1 gives Hubbard’s biggest acount of the long term history of the soul, supposedly.

    Two other key references relate to the case of the soul, it’s wholetrack case that supposedly harms the soul.

    Scientology’s cosmology is a long term, supposedly, therapy for long term aware souls that wish to deal with their past life traumas, and then engage in the high volume exorcism to get rid of all the surplus souls that infest our bodies and those surplus souls leak the R6 implants onto our minds, even if we are “Clear”.

    Time Track Bulletin #1, is missed by every writer to date, in every book, I believe I’m the only one diligently continually answering the “cosmology” question accurately, quoting the key Dianetics reference, called Time Track bulletin #1. I’ve repeatedly told new religion scholars this, and I think only David Bromley has given a slight mention and reference to Time Track Bulletin #1 in his paper on Scientology in the Jim Lewis anthology on Scientology. I was urging David and other scholars to please take certain references into account, when trying to understand the cosmology of Hubbard’s.

    We each supposedly started out at our own home universes, basically each of us

    Hubbard is consistent in that Scientology is a supposedly therapeutic religion, dealing with our past lives “case”, and doing the “upper levels” exorcism, also relieves us of the “case” that the body thetans leak onto us.

    • George M. White

      chuck,
      I am familiar with the tape which Hubbard recorded somewhere in the 1950’s. As I recall, he is talking about his “grand body of theta” which breaks into pieces. Is this the one? I think not even a Scientologist would talk about it because it is wildly imaginative. It was only true for him.
      GMW

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Hugh refers on his book’s page 75 to the “Secrets of the MEST Universe” tape series, to page 9, which I went to it, it’s tape 6 November 1952, titled “Methods of Research–The Thetan as an Energy Unit.”

        I think the reference lecture you might be thinking of, the one I used to use showing to students, was from another lecture that LRH says the thetan first started out as himself being the whole universe, then he subdivided it up, and labeled the other half as NOT himself, and then further kept dividing up the universe butting himself out and out of each part, until we arrived at this small thing we consider ourselves today.

        But not even this reference is the one I was thinking of, the “time Track Bulletin 1” is on the NED Course, and on the old Standard Dianetics Course, it’s the 1963 Time Track Bulletin, which says:

        “The Time Track and Engram Running by Chains, Bulletin 1”

        Ron says blah, blah, blah, then the part I like, he says:

        “…It is doubtful if another type of being built the physical universe and still lurks within it to trap further. But older beings, already degraded, have continuously been about to help new beings to go downhill.

        “Each thetan had his own ‘Home Universe’ and these, colliding or made to collide, probably are the physical universe. But of this origin and these intentions we are not at this time certain.”

        – L.,Ron Hubbard, 15 May 1963, in the red volumes, and in the NED Pack.

        ————————

        The two Hubbard “Time Track” bulletins of the NED Course, are really good theory summaries about auditing. They tie into Dianetics of 1950 version, and they tie into the Factors, particularly Factor number 1.

        And finally, to me, the key other references to get a summary good overall feel of what Hubbard’s cosmology finally is, are:

        a) “Why TRs” movie, I mentioned above, it tells of the future.
        b) Ron’s Journal 35, From Clear to Eternity (describing the groupings Hubbard places all his echelons of auditing and exorcism within, the 6 “rough” divisions of “case” gains)
        c) LRH ED 339R Int “And some day—way, way up the track—we’ll have this universe back in native state and impervious to the faults and traps of yesteryear.” – L. Ron Hubbard, 13 Mar 1982.

        Hubbard’s cosmology supposedly, but as a course supervisor, and having to “put it all together” when training the students under my charge, I pulled out the above references, through the years, to try to summarize what it was all about.

        Since leaving, and further scouring, I found that Hubbard’s “One Was Stubborn” corny bad short story novelette is surprisingly the only single story that fits with Hubbard’s conception of God and the creation of one’s universe and THE universe. “One Was Stubborn” is a 1940 short story/novelette about the attainment of God like status for oneself, which seems consistent with Hubbard’s above writings, that supposedly culminate with bringing the whole universe back to “Native State” as he cheerleads us in 339R Int.

  • Sherbet

    Off topic — I’m reading about Jim Jones, and my initial attitude was “a cult is a cult.” Aside from some obvious personality similarities between Jones and lrh, I was surprised to learn one huge difference: In its first years of existence, the Peoples Temple was devoted to community service and outreach programs, such as soup kitchens, staffed by church volunteers. In addition, its church services and choir were completely integrated, and that was not a popular theme in those days. So until Jones crossed the wackadoodle line, where he tossed out the Bible, performed rigged, fake healings, and declared himself the messiah, there was some good being accomplished by the Peoples Temple. And then the underhanded, creepy stuff began, as well as the complete allegiance Jones demanded, plus the paranoia, the armed guards…It’s like scientology without the soup kitchens.

    • dbloch7986

      It’s a tough comparison. The similarities between the control mechanisms are undeniable and horrifying. The facade of religious pursuit is present in both cases.

      Scientology used to be, at least when I was in, very egocentric. It focuses on elevating status for individuals. This being accomplished through “stats”, the “grade chart”, “IAS levels”, “Ideal Org contribution levels” and showing loyalty by ratting people out to the powers that be.

      TPT was much more group oriented. Appealed to people who didn’t have much. Appealed to their desire to help but not increasing their ego by making them feel like they were helping people when they actually were not.

      I doubt much has changed, but as the group grows smaller and DM more defensive, it concerns me to think what may eventually come to be.

      • Sherbet

        I’d be very surprised if the cult collapsed with any kind of dramatic event. It seems more likely that more and more people will allow themselves to think: Hmmm…(1) the focus has changed here, and (2) it isn’t working for me anymore.

        As usual, bravo to you, Derek, for following your instincts and getting the heck out of scn.

      • Sidney18511

        While traveling down the rabbit hole that was the PT I found something interesting. Among the affidavits during the Clearwater hearings, it was announced that Scientology was telling the cadets 13 years and younger that it was OUR GOVERNMENT that killed all the people in Guyana.

        • Sherbet

          What, no Evil Psychs??

          • Sidney18511

            well Sherbet….I guess the Psychs were busy and had their hands trying to take down Scientology, so the government had to step in.

        • villagedianne

          There is conspiracy theory about Leo Ryan’s death. He was the congressman who was killed down there. I don’t remember the details, but I think it was something about Ryan planning to expose government secrets. Sorry to be so vague, but I don’t have time to research it right now.

      • ThetaBara

        I just can’t see the Cabbage offing himself, though. I expect he’ll just disappear some day, taking most of the money with him.

    • Poison Ivy

      I do think Jones was heading down the Hubbardian path from the beginning (as you said, many personality similarities between the 2 leaders), but it took him longer to get his ultimate power thang going. There are people who do good to do good, and people who do good in honor to be lauded and to get attention and accolades for themselves. Jones was the second type but it took people longer to catch on.

      • Sherbet

        I agree completely, PI. We don’t have to wonder very long whether he was doing these things out of philanthropy, or if he craved the adulation of the community and his flock. At the base of it all is a sick mind, for both Jones and lrh.

        • ThetaBara

          Yes, and that is a marker of the narcissistic/sociopathic personality.

      • BananaSplits8

        Jim Jones’ son, Stephen, the one who was saved by a basketball game, speaks as someone on the front lines and makes no excuses for his father.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJURAVi6wpA

        • noseinabk

          5:15 “He was more concerned with your perception of him than his perception of himself. To me this is very opposite of LRH. Lron was more concerned about hiding his true self and making you believe his BS. His affirmations confirm this.

    • villagedianne

      It just goes to show that a group can do good things and still be bad.

      • Sherbet

        I don’t suggest scientology’s got-their-own-agenda Volunteer Ministers are doing good things, though. Nope; won’t go that far, Dianne.

        • villagedianne

          I agree with you there. I was thinking more generally.
          For instance, Gail Treadwell, the former personal assistant of Amma, the “hugging saint”, is writing a book, which is expected to have some revelations about Amma’s “charities”.

          • Sherbet

            Oh, boy, that should be very interesting.

          • Robert Eckert

            That gives me a sad. But I should not be surprised.

  • dbloch7986

    Oh lord, the “truth” statement. Hubbard turned truth into a subjective idea. It was an ingenious ploy. If Scientology is viewed with objectivity it would never pass even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. By seducing people into viewing the subject entirely subjectively, it puts cognitive faculties that would normally throw up red flags on hold.

    For all you Ex’es that still believe that “truth” statement that Hubbard made:

    What’s true is the truth. The truth is objective; your belief is irrelevant.

    Scientology might indeed be a case of mass hysteria. I think that’s sort of what Jon is saying here. My take on Scientology has always been, and continues to be that the entirety of indoctrination trains you to react to given situations in certain ways.

    The “symptoms” of missed withholds can be present because the person has been trained to exhibit them. However a person can display symptoms of a missed withhold even when one doesn’t exist and then through thought modification and forced confession create a withhold that was never there, or believe that something is a withhold that never was.

    Similarly, the idea of “pulling something in” can be because the person has been trained to pull things in. it can also be that the person is victimized and then later be forced into acknowledging that their own moral shortfalls are the reason behind it.

    Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your POV, we all have occasional moments of weakness. We sometimes act out against our own moral code and regret it. This does not mean that you should sit and wait for something bad happen to you. Learn from your weakness and move on.

    To avoid unnecessary feelings of guilt I like to live by an old pagan proverb: if you’re not hurting anyone, or yourself, do whatever you want.

    Obviously there are more complex moral dilemmas that need deeper thought, but fortunately we don’t have to face those on a daily basis. For the most part, that proverb works wonderfully to curb unnecessary feelings of guilt.

    • 0tessa

      Oh yeah, the ‘missed withhold of nothing …’.

      • dbloch7986

        It’s called “getting anxious because you know that something abusive is about to happen to you at any moment, included being accused of being missed withholdy because you’re anxious about being abused when really you shouldn’t be worried about being abused because nothing is there unless you’re falsely accused and then you’re going to get abused anyway”

        Your brain is on overdrive as a Scientologist. lol

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Thank god I can laugh at that sentence now which is exactly the thought process that goes on. It is Just like your brain is in the spin cycle at the corner laundromat. heh

          • dbloch7986

            “I’m afraid of them knowing. What am I afraid of them knowing? I didn’t do anything wrong. Wait maybe I did. What if they think what I did was wrong? What if I don’t think it was wrong? Does it matter? Oh god I need sleep for session. If I’m not sessionable again they’re going to make me confess. But I have nothing to confess? But wait what about that time that I touched myself in the shower when I was 9, what if that comes up?” lulz

          • sister wendy

            that’s a good one- Scientology Brain = Spin Cycle

        • Poison Ivy

          Speaking of GASLIGHT – great film, btw – there’s a moment where Ingrid Bergman finally asserts her independence and forces her evil husband, Charles Boyer, to take her to a concert. Now, he’s been trying to convince her for most of the movie that she’s crazy, she’s stealing things and losing things, hearing things and seeing things. So he won’t let her out of the house because she’s “Not Well.” But she actually stands up to him and calls for a taxi and says she’s going with or without him. So he turns it against her. They’re at the concert, and he turns and whispers to her, “My watch is gone!” She looks at him, sees that suspicious look in his eye, and immediately freezes up, because she KNOWS he’s going to point the finger at her and her “madness.” So she flips out. He reaches into her purse and voila! Somehow, there’s his watch. She’s hysterical and they have to go home and he says, “See, I told you, you just aren’t well enough to go out.”

          That reminds me of the overts and withholds the way you and others describe them.

          • Poison Ivy

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZMoIZPC5NA

            Watch Ingrid Bergman’s face carefully when Charles Boyer whisperers about his watch. “What have I done? Have I done anything? I must have – no, I didn’t” You can see it in his face too “What are your crimes?”

            Sorry, I have a tendency to measure real life by classic movies and literature.

            • GlibWog

              Oh one of my favorite movies PI … I am addicted to TCM .. Yes.. this scene is absolutely riveting.. You can see her unraveling before your eyes.

            • sugarplumfairy

              lrh was Charles Boyer.. Tony is Joseph Cotten..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              So is Leah Ingrid?

            • sugarplumfairy

              eggggcellent casting..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              me too, and music of course.

  • Theo Sismanides

    You can always change Reality. And yes it has to do with agreement. To give you an example. Just watched the film Luther, filmed in 2003, starring Joseph Fiennes. That one man changed the whole reality in Germany. The agreement was to support the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope.

    Luther disagreed (outflow) while all the rest were agreeing (inflow). So he continued to disagree (outflow) and he got to change that Reality into his own Reality.

    I am sorry, I don’t see Martin Luther as a charlatan, I see him as great visionary man who created another Reality. Go ask now in Germany how many agree with Luther and what is their Reality.

    • Sherbet

      You want to meet a gal named Jessica? It’s a match made in heaven.

      • Theo Sismanides

        I will know those who talk non sequitur here and you are on of them. What’s this got to do with what I wrote?

        • Sherbet

          C’mon, Theo. I don’t usually speak in non sequiturs, but, you’re right, that post was sort of an in-joke in the Bunker, so it probably didn’t make sense to everyone. Explanation: There was a woman in the Bunker the other night, and she was quite sure of herself and dogmatic in her opinions about religion and got pummeled as a result. It wasn’t an exact parallel with your post, because she was talking about a specific religion, and you were talking about an event in religious history. Anyway, I was just trying to be funny.

          • Theo Sismanides

            ah, ok thanks. now it makes sense to me. in any case I got a woman, lol. Thanks anyway!

      • noseinabk

        Off Topic. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK You for that. I am a day late on comments and this is the best laugh I had during my busy ( shitty) day.
        Thank god for the bunkers information AND its comic relief.

    • 0tessa

      Your statement ‘That one man changed the whole reality in Germany’ contains at least three historic inaccuracies. To keep it simple here: Luther was not alone in his opinions about the Catholic Church; he did not change the ‘whole’ reality – a whole reality does not exist as such. In Luther’s time Germany did not exist as it does now – as one country. It consisted of quite a lot of independent states governed by a royal or lordly dynasty. Not all these states welcomed Luther’s ideas.
      Though Luther was maybe not a charlatan, he gave order to kill hundreds of peasants in a big uproar.
      Furthermore, a movie is not a source I would use for a historic account.

      • ze moo

        There is an ‘blooper reel’ on the meaning of life (I think) with the ‘adventures of martin luther. Luther was the first to escape the Roman Catholic Church. A political alliance between the states of NW Europe kept him alive and allowed the spawning of Calvinists and the Church of England and later other protestants. A very long series of wars resulted. Not much ‘agreement on reality’ there.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXzubuENjHk

    • Missionary Kid

      Luther also told people that if they saw a Jew on the road alone, to kill him.
      One of the reasons that the conversion happened so fast in Germany was that the Catholic Church owned large properties, and it gave the royalty the excuse to confiscate them for their own, since they would no longer be beholden to the Pope. That had much to do with the rapid conversion.

      • Poison Ivy

        Then as now, money talks.

        • sister wendy

          Always- and Luther didn’t “change people’s minds” he simply was the voice at that pinnacle in time saying what people were going towards…separation from the very corrupt Roman church. He posted what he thought, he helped lead a movement that reached it’s time.

          • sister wendy

            not to minimize what he did- which was huge…but he wasn’t a revolutionary thinker…he was simply a person willing to stand up and say something, imho.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Good for him. He was smart and took advantage of those facts and the oppression to overthrow the Catholic Church. Still, the reality is that Martin Luther, one man, did change the religion for many Germans. That’s a fact and a true one. This is why we are saying: Is this true? instead of: Is this real? Is it true that Martin Luther changed the religion for many Germans. Yes.

        “Is this real?” means is this really happening or is something else happening? There is a difference between Truth and Reality as I explained above.

        • Missionary Kid

          Theo, it’s obvious you don’t understand. The movement of the rulers of the various countries to declare themselves Protestant and confiscate church lands had nothing to do with any thought or planning by Luther.

          The seizure of the vast properties and wealth of the CC was a political and financial one on the part of the rulers who wanted the wealth for themselves, so, by declaring themselves Protestant, they were able to take the wealth and income that went to the Catholic Church for themselves. Religion had little or nothing to do with their moves.

          They declared themselves Protestant for greed, and their subjects had to follow.

          You’re also basing your history on a film. That is a big mistake because films simplify history to tell a story or to persuade people of a certain viewpoint. They leave out many important details, and often distort the reality of what happened.

          IMO, you have a lot of learning to do.

          • Theo Sismanides

            See, I don’t specialise in history. And what you are saying makes sense. It could be like that. That is a subject I am not so interested to find out what really, really happened.
            Of course it would be good to know but the datum (either way) doesn’t really change affect my current life presently.

            Fine, oh yes I have a lot of learning to do. i am open to learning new things.

            But the point is that whatever happened did that Reality for the German people change and did the Germans created their own branch of religion?

            Like we Indies, we have our own people now and say we stick to (most) LRH reference. We don’t apply disconnection and we are not really a built up church. We practice mostly individually but we do practice Standard Tech and not the Tech of Miscavige or whatever he wanted implemented. We have changed the suppressive “Reality” imposed by Miscavige and broke free. And we are many so we are forming something new and rather solid. It persists in time and space. You will find Indies all around the world and for many years now and from now.

            • Missionary Kid

              Here is a problem. I don’t agree with you, and the reason I don’t goes back to exactly what Joh Atack is saying.

              “After far too many years thinking about this subject, I conclude that the simple most important notion in Scientology, and its best explanation, resides in the drastic redefinition of a single word: reality.

              Hubbard tells us that reality is “agreement.” The universe entire is a construct, which extrudes from the thinking of the spiritual beings within it. It is a consensus. A mad person, Hubbard said, simply has a different “reality,” because they no longer accept the “agreed upon apparency” that is generally “mocked up” by we spiritual beings. This is confounded by the Scientologists use of the word reality to mean “what do you think?” As in “what’s your reality?””

              We are speaking two different languages because you accepted the redefinition of words that LRH undertook. They are not common definitions. They are his alone.

              All of those redfinitions that you learned in $cientology ended up isolating you from the rest of society. It also makes it frustrating for you and me to deal with each other because while we are using a common word, our definitions are different. As a consequence, we are not talking about the same thing.

              You come here and insist that we accept the definitions that LRH gave you when you got involved with $cientology, not realizing that those definitions provided you with a foundation that is off kilter. We don’t accept your definitions because quite often they are simple perversions that lead to odd conclusions.

              The reason that you feel comfortable int eh Indy world is because all of those people use the same vocabulary you do.

              I am glad that you feel that you’re really building up a church, but IMO, the {tech} is pure bullshit because it all comes from the fetid mind of LRH.

              Marty is just now starting to read some psychology, but he’s 30 to 50 years behind, and he’s got a lot of catching up to do, and his ignorance is vast because he’s been poisoned by LRH’s attitude toward “psychs.”

              LRH came up with disconnection. He came up with fair game. DM didn’t. If LRH hadn’t instituted those policies, DM couldn’t use them. Those policies are evil, and they came from the evil mind of LRH.

              You may not relate to this, but I remember in school that somehow the subject of Martin Luther came up. He was a hero of mine because I was raised a Protestant. One of my classmates piped up and said the only reason that Luther left the church was because he wanted to get married. He was, of course, Catholic. Because our schools kept religious discussions like that out of the classroom, the teacher stopped the discussion, but it piqued my interest, so I did some reading on Luther. I was only about 11 at the time, but in subsequent years, I’ve learned a lot about Luther, warts and all.

              You have been fed terms and concepts that fit in LRH’s world. That is like the Catholic boy talking about Luther. You’ve only gotten one side. LRH’s view of psychology and psychiatry are like that kid’s view of Luther. Prejudiced and ill informed.

              I subsequently learned that not only was Luther a rabid anti-semite (the Lutheran church a few years ago issued an apology for his views – after centuries) but that he was a blunt speaker who wouldn’t be allowed to preach in any of the churches named after him.

              You also are not familiar with all of the indy groups that have formed before. They haven’t lasted, because they don’t have the coercive power that LRH devised for Co$. Once the isolation and control that disconnection and fair game are gone, people leave $cinetology because they start to see that there’s another world out there.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Missionary Kid, thanks for the lengthy answer and your views. Despite the fact that we do use different vocabularies sometimes, mainly me with scientologese, we can still discuss.

              And I don’t have a problem to not use any of such terms, however, when a notion like Reality is being portrayed as it is here, I had to intervene. It’s like you and the Catholic boy about Luther. You felt obliged and curious to do something, find something out.

              This is normal, because when our firm beliefs are shaken by others without being replaced by others which are more firm, then we feel a loss.

              So pardon me for all the unrealities and the terms and everything but to me what really matters now is to defend some of those beliefs of mine. It’s just natural and gives one a sense of pride too, because i am stepping in here and I am chatting with people who have a very different idea of how things are. Fortunately, we are doing ok, most of the times, and some people know me for who I am and what I believe.

              This is the Internet and everyone can talk his mind. This is a progress. Still, one has to respect things and people around him. Since I find it very disrespectful to talk about Reality and how it’s meant by Hubbard without having read all the books (I have some hundreds on my hard disk) of his on the matter, I thought I would also be disrespectful and shake some “realities” here. It’s a free market, Missionary Kid. Whoever sells the product best wins.

            • Missionary Kid

              LRH, as well as your definition is, in essence that belief is reality. That is a very uncommon definition.

              Selling a product doesn’t mean a win. If it’s bullshit, everyone loses and the buyer is being defrauded. Humanity loses.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Beliefs become reality. You have to understand reality is formed by the many.
              If a product is bad and the customer defrauded, the product becomes unreal to the consumers and soon perishes.

            • Missionary Kid

              Just because a large group believes that Hitler never had any death ovens in WWII doesn’t mean that the fact of their existence never happened. That is belief. That is not reality.

              That is also LRH’s twisted definition of “reality.”

    • Once_Born

      Luther changed peoples subjective beliefs regarding some obscure Christian doctrines. That is changing minds, not changing reality.

      If Luther had moved the Vatican two miles to the left, or made the sky green, that would have been creating another reality.

      Persuading people to change their minds, is persuading people to change their minds. It does affect the real, objective world.

      I’m still open to examples of people reallychanging reality – preferably in a situation where their claims can be tested…

    • 0tessa

      Your comment is a nice example of how Scientologists use their own nomenclature (partly made-up words or neologisms) in other fields, e.g. science or history. It is utterly unscientific to say something like ‘mr. A changed the whole reality in country B’. It says exactly nothing at all.

      • Theo Sismanides

        what is reality for you? Do you people have any kind of Dictionary for Life? I think you need one. So, what is the word that you don’t understand in the sentence ‘mr. A changed the whole reality in country B’ ? I guess it’s reality?

        So, what is your definition of reality?

        Definition as I meant it. (From the Tech Dictionary)

        REALITY, 1. is, here on earth, agreement as to what is. This does not prevent

        barriers or time from being formidably real. It does not mean either that space,

        energy or time are illusions. It is as one knows it is. (COHA, p. 249)

        That so many minds agree brings about Reality in the form of space, energy, and time.

        Reality is the agreement of the many. If someone would come here and say this is NOT Tony Ortega’s blog, it’s Theo’s blog or whoever’s, everybody would say he is Unreal.

        There is a Reality around you and you cannot change it. Unless you act big time, like Martin Luther did or Hubbard did. And they did change realities.

        This blog is a NEW REALITY FOR PEOPLE TO PLAY created because of L. RON HUBBARD. A new reality for you guys to play. But in the bottom line it was created because of the existence and the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard and what he did. Otherwise (with an L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology) this blog would be unreal !!!

        • Captain Howdy

          Theo, no one on planet earth except a few thousand scientologists considers the Scientology/Dianetics dictionary a valid dictionary.

          It is considered a document of cult delusion by many more than that few thousand though. So that’s the real reality there, pal.

          • Theo Sismanides

            That’s your reality. Mine is different.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Finally I think we are delivering some free lessons here as to some really important subjects of life. I really enjoy this post as there is some opportunity for some people to start thinking in terms of DEFINITIONS.

              Well, of course there is going to be some crappy definitions so beware.

            • Robert Eckert

              Of course there are going to be crappy definitions as long as we have a Scientologist on the thread. It’s what you do.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              An, of course, we all are in agreement here that the crappy definitions are in Hubbard’s dictionary. That’s the reality here, so deal with it.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I have no intention to change that. It would be in vain… Reality is so solid like the Physical Universe is. It becomes solid as a Rock. It starts with some consideration and then by everybody agreeing (agreeing so much as to go into butchering, vilifying the dessenters, killing them or ostracising them) it becomes solid. It’s the same here. This reality is s-o-o-o-o solid… it’s like a wall. I don’t care to bang my head on walls.

              Whoever understood, understood.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, it was solid before any of us were here, and remains solid whether we agree or not.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Reality and perception are two different things..

              perception and delusion are sometimes the same though..

            • nottrue

              there must be a big problem in your reality or you wouldnt be here

            • Theo Sismanides

              hahaha, that’s true… I hate “Realities” I wanna create my Own Realities… thanks for the great comment!

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              If you hate realities then you are hardly qualified to define them.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Aaaaah, Douglas…! Come on, get back on track and THINK! I hate apples, can’t I define what an apple IS?

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Not in any dispassionate sense, no. I would no more trust a person who hates apples to define what an apple is than I would rely on someone who hates love to define romance. This is the crux of the Hubbardian fallacy: Reality is not based on some subjective set of feelings or agreements.

            • Theo Sismanides

              another Sophist…. my god… we were talking about changing Realities and then he goes “oh you must hate realities then, so you can’t define Reality”.

              And now we talk about hating apples…. See, Douglas if it is YOUR reality that reality is not based on some subjective set of feelings or agreements, then ok. However I didn’t say subjective, I said agreements.

              9/11 happens. A whole new anti-terrorist global campaign and wars start. The world is not the same again. A new reality is made. Is it true? I said it. I doubt it. But the majority on planet Earth believe it is necessary to have that New Reality to “protect them” from Terrorism.

              Now the Real Reality is that the only terrorists are the governments and those who manipulate them in the dark, behind the scenes.

              So, Douglas, sleep tight and dream well. Open your Reality and seek some Truths not what are being told left and right.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Ahem, I did not “go” (say), “Oh he must hate realities, then.” YOU said it. Your own words. Nor did I say you may not define it. I said (read, comprehend) you are hardly qualified to define them.

              It is you who end up helplessly calling people names, telling them to not talk, and painting yourself into semantic corners. The rest of us are genuinely interested in thoughtful conversation.

            • Theo Sismanides

              hahaha, you? in thoughtful conversation that cannot even admit that Luther or one man can change the Reality because he got everybody behind him? If he didn’t have anybody behind him, mr. Douglas he would have done jack shit.

              You are not even in a position to think logically and observe sequences of events.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Is that what this is all about? Getting everyone to agree with you? And that will “change reality?”

            • Theo Sismanides

              you smart guy… you start getting it! wow, I am impressed.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              (We all “got it” about an hour ago. Do you seriously think you have made any headway here?)

            • Theo Sismanides

              Of course not. Solidity is Solidity. I am not pounding my head over walls. Walls are real because everyone agrees they are real. I couldn’t undo that. Everyone here agrees to your views. It’s solid. I couldn’t and I wouldn’t want to change that. I am just having some fun seeing how solid reality is. I am just observing, my friend, I am not reaching for anyone here unless they wanna see themselves.

              I know the tricks of this universe better than most of you.

              “Reach and we will smash you. Agree or you will be punished.”

              And when you agree you are more punished.

            • Once_Born

              Do you really think that, if you convince enough people that walls were not solid, you could walk through one?

            • Captain Howdy

              Show me an English dictionary, unrelated to scientology, that agrees with your definition of ‘reality”.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I don’t have to, it’s a New Reality! Ta-ta!!!!!!

            • Captain Howdy

              Ha, no wonder Greece is closer to a 3rd world country these days. it’s obviously been decimated by inbreeding.

            • Theo Sismanides

              nice… well.. Greece is closer to a 3rd world country because it has been under the Turks for 400 years. What saved us and still does is our long and glorious history but I am afraid modern Greeks have very little to do with it. On top of that you have all the colonialists who have invaded all parts of the world by divide and conquer and have control over major resources of those countries so apparently those countries have gone down and will never go back up unless someone changes that reality. Greece has been found for years now with unimaginable resources of gas and oil, same has Cyprus. And those two countries have over them the IMF.

              Interesting? That’s the Reality they are moulding to people’s minds. That Greece and Cyprus have gone bankrupt to usurp all their resources.

            • Espiando

              Theo, you guys have had two hundred years to get your shit together after you successfully revolted from the Ottomans. You haven’t. And you’re the only country today that won’t let another country call itself by its own name because you’re butthurt about them using it. In general, your country’s pretty fucked up. By Scientology standards, that means it’s your fault. So fix it.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I never said otherwise. Now what kind of responsibility can you take for the US government?

            • nottrue

              thank you it was great wasnt it

            • Captain Howdy

              The mentally ill create their own realities also. Hmm, that must explain why LRH hated psychiatry so much.

          • Proud to be an SP

            It must be a document of cult delusion since most people agree that it is, that is reality right there, right Theo?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Have you studied it?

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I haven’t. And I have no intention of doing so. The faulty logic and lack of critical facilities of those who study it are ample to persuade me that it would be a pointless exercise.

            • Theo Sismanides

              So don’t talk.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              That would be the Scientology solution, would it not?

              (But if we are n ot allowed to talk, how can we achieve reality? I mean, agreement?)

            • Captain Howdy

              Why would anyone want to study a dictionary written by a college dropout?

            • Rex

              Question of the day!

            • Theo Sismanides

              ah, captain… that’s so much used now.. college dropout! Find some other excuse! Like

              Someone is not interested to broaden his Reality and see other Realities and study new things.

              That what makes people allergic to Scientology is (because they have agreed to propaganda and the disaffected ones) that it is a route to discover one’s Spiritual Nature?

              That on 21st century we can’t say with certainty to our children if they are spiritual beings or not and that they are free to study the subject in any university including the “crazy” teachings of Scientology?

              That we have agreed that the subject of Spirits is taboo in this society or at least looked down upon as a nebulous theoretical subject with no scientific basis, so we better not look into it ourselves lest we are considered wacko. (Then you get some extra super solid Reality on Planet Earth about all such theories and that is that they are nuts)

            • Captain Howdy

              Dude, you babble like some acid damaged old hippie. Did you find your parents acid stash when you were a kid and saw all the mickey mouses and thought it was candy or something?

            • Rex

              Freezoners often sound like that.

            • Theo Sismanides

              who is hallucinating and who labels people here is evident. Captain FLUNK!

        • Robert Eckert

          Neither Martin Luther nor L. Ron Hubbard changed reality one hair.

          • Theo Sismanides

            Lol, imbecille! That’s friend for stupid!

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              And there’s the whole problem with basing “reality” on subjective “agreements.” Eventually, one is left with little more to do than point fingers and call names.

            • Captain Howdy

              FLUNK! You lose.

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok good… FLUNK too for not weeping his ass, saying that Martin Luther (at least) didn’t change reality one hair!

            • Captain Howdy

              Luther changed society, not reality. You need to word clear “reality” in a “real” dictionary.

            • Theo Sismanides

              tell me the definition then, I am answering comments, Help me out.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          The definition of “reality” given above is faulty. Reality is not based on agreement. Reality can be defined in two specific ways: That which actually exists (as opposed to the imaginary), or that which one has personally observed. “Agreement” has nothing to do with either of these. If there ever was a time that everyone agreed that the world was flat, that would not alter the reality that it was not.

          And don’t go muddling the conversation further by pulling in “truth” and “facts.” These are two different concepts, both with a bearing on reality, but not at all the same thing.

          • Theo Sismanides

            I am sorry who is muddling the conversation?

            the Earth was believed (ok I will change the agreed) to be flat.

            Did that actually exist? Or had it been personally observed by the many?

            Still it was REAL to them that the Earth was flat.

            It was not TRUE, still it was REAL to the people until someone disproved the fact.

            “When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round.”
            -Emma Miler Bolenius, American Schoolbook Author, 1919

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              You continue to muddle the conversation. No one ever observed a sea monster devouring a ship. No one ever actually sailed off the edge of the “flat” world. That is reality, despite the generally-agreed-upon-perceptions-of-many-people.

            • Espiando

              The Earth was not believed to be flat. The existence of the horizon was a dead giveaway. Citing an American textbook from 1919 does not prove anyone’s point. The academic rigor of historical research was not truly established until Will and Ariel Durant came along. Lots of anecdotal nonsense slipped their way into textbooks back then. The point the author made has been disproven by such rigorous research.

              History is open to revision when other evidence appears. Scientology is not. And that’s its problem.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Ok, let’s take then Galileo and the Earth standing still or turning around. You guys, find a subject which was “real” then but not anymore because someone changed it and others agreed to it. Before Galileo everyone “knew” (agreed) that the Earth was not turning around. That was real then but not true so it’s not real anymore. Now everyone agrees that the Earth IS turning around the sun. And that’s a proven fact and a stable datum we all agree. However, one day there comes Galileo II and he makes another observation which defies Galileo’s theories. It can happen, it has happened and it happens in science all the time. Then everybody agrees with this guy and his principles. A new reality if formed. Until the next one…

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I am also able to perceive when a discussion has jumped the shark.

            • Theo Sismanides

              what’s “jump the shark?” I always try to clear my Misunderstoods.

            • Robert Eckert

              Happy Days was an American sitcom that was popular for many years but was kept going too long and got crappy. The turning point when people decided it was no longer worth watching was when the Fonzie character jumped over a shark on water skis. Ever since, the term “jumping the shark” has been used in American culture to mean doing or saying something so stupid that no-one will pay attention to you anymore. For example, “Sarah Palin jumped the shark when she claimed Alaska’s proximity to Russia somehow qualified her as a foreign policy expert.”

            • Theo Sismanides

              Well, thanks Robert! That’s so cool! and thanks for explaining it to me in such an analytical way. Now, I know what Douglas meant.

            • Espiando

              Wrong again. Copernicus published his work fifty years before Galileo. The path from Galileo to Kepler and Brahe to Newton and Leibnitz to Herschel and so on and so forth was evolutionary. There weren’t new realities formed because someone made a discovery. Not even the work of Planck in the development of quantum mechanics was a “new reality” paradigm. He built off the work of a number of others. If Michelson and Morley hadn’t disproven the aether, Planck couldn’t have done what he did.

              Damn, Theo, you’re either clueless, brainwashed by Hubtard’s disjointed lessons, or trolling. I hope you’re trolling, for your sake.

            • Theo Sismanides

              guys, you are Sophists, as they used to say in ancient Greece. 2. Sophist Any of a group of professional fifth-century b.c. Greek philosophers and teachers who speculated on theology, metaphysics, and the sciences, and who were later characterized by Plato as superficial manipulators of rhetoric and dialectic.

              Keep finding arguments? Did they change the existing Reality or not is the question that will haunt you tonight! LOL! Oh you Sophists.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Sez you!

              (How’s that for a snappy comeback?)

            • Espiando

              I’m not a Sophist. I’m more a combination of Epicurean, Cynic, and Stoic.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Stoic here.

            • Theo Sismanides

              you act like one though Espiando. Society is based on agreement.

              If I come over (are you in the US?) and start paying with the old Greek Drachma which is not a valid coin anymore, no one would agree to receive such money. If I paid in Euros they would agree.

              What is a society based upon? Agreement. And thus come about Realities. But you guys like to disagree with everything.

            • Robert Eckert

              “Society is based on agreement.” Yes. But reality is not.

            • Theo Sismanides

              See Robert, we are far away and still can communicate here through the Net. This is now a Reality. It’s happening all around the planet. It was not a reality some 20 years ago. People couldn’t communicate through their computers instantly to one another.

              We take Reality as something really FIXED, SOLID, which it is. It is so firmly there that no one (we think) can take it apart or change it. The Physical Universe is like that. Because Agreement is Inflow and Disagreement is Outflow, the Physical Universe because of its zillions of flows pouring down to you and me, gets us to Agree all the time. We are inflowing all this data from it, pictures, sounds, other experiences and senses, spaces, times, energies and masses all around us…. So this is continuous inflow to one.

              So reality is solid and fixed. A thetan or a person let’s say, who thinks his “illusions”, his dreams are nothing and who doesn’t disagree is doomed. He wouldn’t try to change anything. And it’s true it’s hard to change some reality but, hey, many have done it… Persistence and continuous Outflow (Disagreement) with the Established “Reality” can change that.

            • Robert Eckert

              The Internet was created by understanding what the laws governing matter and energy are, and always have been, regardless of whether anyone agreed with them or not. Einstein expressed profound disagreement with quantum mechanics, and most of the world is baffled by quantum theory, including physicists who know how to calculate using its formulas. It does not matter who agrees or does not agree. The formulas work anyway.

            • Theo Sismanides

              True but go say this and apply it to a Zulu tribe. See what you get!

            • Espiando

              If you tried to pay for something in the US with Euros, they wouldn’t accept that either. We only take US dollars here. Except when you try to use a Canadian quarter in an automatic tollbooth. They’ll go through.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Wow not even euros?

            • Captain Howdy

              A stooge of one of the great bullshit artists in modern history (L Ron Hubbard) accusing anyone of ‘sophistry” is priceless and hilarious.

            • Robert Eckert

              Unfortunately, he is serious.

            • Robert Eckert

              “That was real then but not true” NO. It was never real.

            • Theo Sismanides

              AXIOM113 REALITY IS THE AGREEMENT UPON PERCEPTIONS AND DATA IN

              THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE

              All that we can be sure is real is that on which we have agreed is real Agreement

              is the essence of reality

            • Espiando

              Go to Oldest view, scroll down a bit, and read what I have to say about the Axioms. Then look at the number of up votes I got on it. Agreement here seems to be that the Axioms are bullshit. That means, by your own statements, that you have to agree with it. You don’t want to ARC break with us, do you?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Having ARC with Low Tone Ideas is what brought us down in the first place. I keep my distance and not sorry for the ARC break.

              Agreeing with everything is what got us here. Disagreeing in this case is my right and keeps me sane.

            • Robert Eckert

              All of Hubbard’s “axioms” are false except for those so ill-stated that they have no meaning to be either true or false.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Theo, the Reality of the creation of this blog is Tony Ortega, expenses paid and skills and software and hardware and a lot of hard work day after day and individuals interested in the human story of crimes and human rights abuses within scientology’s history. They have to pay for their service provider, also have certain software and hardware, learn skills how to work it, take the initiative to come here to read and possibly write a post, and all of this is about real people, real activity with real stuff. It is Not here Because of Hubbard. Do you see the inverted pretzel logic here?

            • Theo Sismanides

              You didn’t answer my question? What if Hubbard never existed and thus Scientology never existed? Would that blog exist in such form and subject?

              So, understand that a person created New Realities for people to have something to do and say.

            • nottrue

              if hubbard never existed we wont need this blog to show the world his crimes

            • Theo Sismanides

              for you this is real, see? show the world his crimes. You all agree on this and thus the Reality of this blog. I just offer to help to clarify a bit a few minor details, like what is Reality.

            • nottrue

              hubbards crimes are reality

            • Theo Sismanides

              i answered that: Your reality and those of the blog here. Not mine.

            • nottrue

              why are you here your looking for something

            • Theo Sismanides

              Fun! you?

            • nottrue

              you know the true is here on this blog

            • aegerprimo

              “History of Man” reviewed by a professor of biology…. “the tech” vs. science. Good stuff.

            • nottrue

              i wish for you peace and happiness

            • Once_Born

              In other words:
              Para 1) ‘Things would be different if they weren’t the way they are’.
              Para 2) ‘Hubbard wrote things which other people talk about’

              This is not cutting edge philosophy…

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              It. Is. BRILLIANT!

              Things WOULD be different if they weren’t the way they are. I am certain I read that in a fortune cookie once…

            • Once_Born

              Thank you,

              I was inspired by Theo’s question, “What if Hubbard never existed and thus Scientology never existed? Would that blog exist in such form and subject?”

              The answer, “No – things would be different if they weren’t the way they are” isn’t helpful because it answers a meaningless question – as programmers say “garbage in, garbage out”.

              It’s amazing how many words had to use to construct ideas which evaporate away the moment you examine them.

              Glad we got we a fortune cookie out of it though.

            • aquaclara

              Fortune-cookie tech! Of course. Footnoted on the bottom of the page of all our favorite LRH publications, yes?

              No.

            • Robert Eckert

              Scientology is filing suit against the fortune-cookie company for violating the copyrights to LRH’s work.

            • Theo Sismanides

              yeah v-e-e-e-e-ry helpful. Thanks

            • Robert Eckert

              Bolenius was mistaken about what people believed in Columbus’ time.

          • Lark Smith

            Thank You Doug!!!!!

          • sister wendy

            First- I think you are correct. When I first joined Sci-bot land, I had a really difficult time understanding what any of their terms meant. I came from a philosophy background and none of their definitions made sense. Maybe a point to contribute here is that the use of the word “reality”the way I’m understanding it in this conversation, is that when one is taking that basic comm class and we are learning about the ARC triangle, you can build up good feelings between people if you share a viewpoint (a reality) which is really sharing a same/similar experience. So that is the only way I can see that it works to say what I experience IS my reality. They seemed to use the words interchangably- experience/reality. I got the sense that because a good part of scientology is all about talking to people (selling people) it’s not really pertinent to discuss what Reality actually is, only what they think it does and how it can be used…. I think they are only interested in it as a term that functions in communication cycle. So if what you experience is your “reality” and if someone else shares the same “reality” (experience) you can consciously “bring the conversation to a higher-tones level” (control them). But it doesn’t have anything to do with what Reality is in a classical or logical sense at all, as far as I can see. I’m sure someone can pull an Axiom out and explain something different, but that’s what I see and that’s why I think Theo’s point doesn’t really go anywhere.

            • sister wendy

              so then when a bunch of people share the same experience, that’s how they “share the same reality”…but that has nothing to do (I don’t think) with what reality is….

    • WildaBeast

      I can’t really agree with you on that one, Theo. Some aspects of reality are what they are and are absolutely unalterable by any means known to humankind. Nothing I can do will alter, say, the fact that I need to breathe oxygen, or that the force of gravity keeps me stuck to the planet (phew!). Nothing all of humankind can do can change things like the existence of the fossil record, and what that record indicates about the development of life on earth. In the strict sense, reality is what the vast majority of us agree that we all see. A Christian fundamentalist sees the fossils and so do I. He explains their presence very differently than I do, but he is not changing the reality of the fossils by his explanation. His theory doesn’t affect how they came to be buried in the ground; neither does mine – I just think my theory fits the available facts better than the fundamentalist’s. That kind of reality is unalterable. Everyone on earth could decide that there were dinosaurs on the ark, and it wouldn’t change the fact that those damn fossils are buried all over the earth (not just in the Levant), that many of them have been radio-carbon tested and they are provably hundreds of millions of years old, that we have found fossils that clearly show how one trait slowly evolved into another over the course of millions of years, and so on. Even if nobody believed it, even if we all believed the same alternate explanation, the reality of those fossils would be unchanged.
      I think part of the reason your claims don’t necessarily make sense to me is that we are defining reality in different ways. Your example of an altered reality, Protestantism, is more what I would define as a long-term cultural phenomenon.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Reality (what the majority agrees with) is not necessarily Truth. You are confusing the two concepts. Truth is what really IS and reality sometimes has nothing to do with it. The reality for example on the planet right now is that terrorists took down the Twin Towers on 9 /11. Is that true? Well, figure it out. The truth is that the whole planet right now is operating on that Reality because everyone believes the terrorists took down the towers. But the truth might be v-e-e-e-r-y different from that.

        Another example. The Reality before Galileo was that the Earth is flat. Was it true? Nooo… however if you said to somebody this is not real they would consider you crazy, heretic and unreal.

        On the fossils you are mentioning, I agree. Science is here to prove facts and facts (what DID happen) are real so people agree to those. But until a new reality is discovered we can live with some old and wrong reality just because the majority agrees.

        The Reality here is that Ron was a con man. Is that true? LOL !!!! Take care.

        • Espiando

          “The Reality before Galileo was that the Earth is flat.” Theo, Theo, Theo, you’re Greek. Aristarchus, one of your crew, proved that the Earth was round two thousand before Galileo, and this was an accepted fact for virtually everyone from that time on. Aristarchus even came within a dozen or so kilometers of getting the right diameter of the Earth.

          The Reality here, given this and basing religious history off of a movie, is that your examples are complete and utter shit.

          • Robert Eckert

            Warning: Pedantry ahead It was Eratosthenes who calculated the circumference of the Earth, not Aristarchus, who was also not the first to deduce that the Earth is round (we don’t know who was first to figure that out), although he is the first on record to assert that the Earth and all the Planets go around the Sun.

            • Espiando

              But the essential Greekiness of the situation still isn’t compromised, nor is the essential fact that our favorite Greek is wrong, wrong, wrong.

            • Theo Sismanides

              you mean Eratosthenes of course, right? Your favourite Greek. Not me! Lol!

          • Theo Sismanides

            “When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round.”
            -Emma Miler Bolenius, American Schoolbook Author, 1919
            Explain this then.

            My explanation: You should have listened to the Greeks!

            • Espiando

              My explanation is that someone without the benefit of modern methods of historical research, archaeology, and philology wrote down some anecdotal claptrap that’s now been proven to be wrong.

              Why don’t you start citing some of the books that claim that the Plague of Justinian and the Great Mortality weren’t caused by Yersinia pestis?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Look I am no historian Espiando. I don’t need to know all those facts and I don’t even see it fit to start looking up more words like Yersinia pestis because I don’t get how this relates to what we are talking here.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Uh huh.

            • Espiando

              “I don’t need to know all those facts.” Really? So, in other words, you don’t know what you’re talking about, but you’re going to talk about it anyway. Hubbard would have been proud of you.

              What I cited was pertinent because it was an issue where some professionals, working off incomplete information, attempted to justify “alternative” explanations for historical phenomena, but were later proven wrong. In fact, it’s a recent example, since the definitive evidence for it was proven only a couple of years ago.

              And I do suggest that you look up Yersinia pestis. That way, you’ll understand what I’m saying when I state that Hubbard was a buboe in the groin of humanity.

            • Robert Eckert

              Bolenius was mistaken. Columbus believed that the earth’s circumference was much smaller than what it really is, and that the east-west distance across Eurasia was larger than it is, so that he expected to find Asia where North American really is. Columbus had to fight people who correctly believed that sailing nonstop from Spain to Asia would be beyond the capacity of his ships.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Or so it would have been, if certain modern theories concerning the shape of the earth had not proven to be disastrously wrong..

        • Jvm3

          How do you read Tony Ortega’s entheta blog and pass the sec checks? Are you cheating the needle? That cant be in-ethics.

          • Espiando

            Theo’s an Indie, and a publicly declared one. So no sec checks, but if he doesn’t come here and criticize us when Jon or Claire do a piece, he’ll get thrown out of Marty’s clubhouse for misfit toys.

            • Jvm3

              Ohh, that makes more sense. Carry on then.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I think Theo is over Marty!

            • Theo Sismanides

              There is no over! Theo is Theo and Marty is Marty. And Earth is Earth and Reality is Reality. I wanna change Realities. That’s why I joined Scientology. I am bored and sick and tired of the “Realities” made for me and you!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Then you’re sure to enjoy the movie “After Earth”. Be sure to give us your review.

            • Theo Sismanides

              misfit toys? what’s that? I had fights with Marty. I don’t belong to anyone and I belong to everybody.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You belong here, Theo.. We’re all misfit toys..

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr6GbKciNCY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

            • Theo Sismanides

              thanks for the evaluation… hahahaha. that shortie there in the middle is cute. Anyway, thanks for explaining it.

          • Theo Sismanides

            I don’t belong to the Church. I have been declared an SP for insisting on the application of the Translations Policies of Hubbard at which point they got me off post! I am a Free Scientologist. And oh yes, when I came out I did cheat the needle and that was VERY IN ETHICS, because that is my REALITY! I couldn’t be sec checked for insisting on LRH Policy which was not applied. Something was very wrong.

        • Proud to be an SP

          “Science is here to prove facts and facts (what DID happen) are real so people agree to those.”

          Actually, science is not here to prove facts and get people to agree. Not at all. Scientists develop theories that lead to hypotheses, test them with data (that is to say, items that can be observed, tracked, measured, recorded), look at the results, modify their theories and hypotheses as appropriate, and share their findings including the theory, hypothesis, methodology, data elements, and results. To be a good scientist requires critical thinking, the ability to tolerate ambiguity, the ability to revise one’s theories based on the findings. They argue all the time!

          • Theo Sismanides

            So what’s the end product of Science? Doesn’t it establish NEW REALITIES TRYING TO GET AS CLOSE TO THE TRUTH?

            • Robert Eckert

              Science establishes new THEORIES trying to get as close to the REALITY as possible.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Well, take it as you wish. For me it strives to get to Truths. And thus forms new realities which when again proven old, new ones take their place. But it’s always a strive to “really finding out what is going on”. It’s a strive to find out what is behind and causes things and why things happen.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, I won’t take it as I “wish”. I will take it as it IS. Your wishes, likewise, are irrelevant.

            • Theo Sismanides

              And you know what IS, right? You do…

            • Proud to be an SP

              No, science does not establish new realities.

            • Theo Sismanides

              of course, whatever you say!

    • sugarplumfairy

      Poor example, Theo.. Martin Luther was a real theologian who wanted to do good in the world.. hubbard was a charlatan con-artist who wanted to pillage the world.. Apples and oranges, my friend..

      • Theo Sismanides

        Stay on the subject. Did Martin Luther change that Reality?

        • Espiando

          No, in fact, he didn’t. Luther simply rode on the backs of others. As a catalyst for reform, he depended on the work done by men like Jan Hus (reform of the Church) and John Wyclif (Bible in the vernacular). He was the beneficiary of being the right man in the right place at the right time with the right idea expressed in the right way to the right people. Nothing more.

          • Theo Sismanides

            OK, that’s not my point. Did some people then change the Reality of a whole Nation? Did they get them in droves to disagree with the old regiment and agree with the new one?

            • Espiando

              No. Such changes happen in an evolutionary fashion, not a revolutionary one. Revolutions occur as a combination of evolved hostility to the regime and sudden opportunity for change.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I have seen the film today about Luther. He preached as a Catholic Priest and was good with his clergy. He would challenge various practices of the Catholic Church especially the Indulgences and thus people started seeing he was for them. Then they started agreeing with him and supported him. They loved him and agreed with his teachings. He did a lot for them and established a new system if you want.

            • Espiando

              Theo, please, listen for one second.

              IT’S. A. FUCKING. MOVIE.

              IT’S. NOT. A. DOCUMENTARY.

              THEY. DIDN’T. HAVE. MOVIES. IN. THE. SIXTEENTH. CENTURY.

              IT’S. NOT. REAL.

              Read some factual books on religious history before you start going on about this, please.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I’ve just had a cognition.

              Suddenly, shouting at ashtrays makes sense!

            • Espiando

              And I’m also yelling at the wall, apparently. Who needs to pay for the TRs?

            • Theo Sismanides

              you can train with Indies! Cooler guys! (fuck you Miscavige, we are gonna get all of your public, even those who disagreed once)

              Lol! I am joking but yes the Indies are cooler. NO such harsh regime or fucked up Reality like the Church’s.

            • Theo Sismanides

              wow… boy you are making stupendous progress tonight. Oh, you are now so real to me. Thanks for sharing my reality. LOL!

            • Theo Sismanides

              hahaha, the sophist comes back. Well, I read on the internet all the incorrect things that were presented there.

              Wait a minute? Do you wanna say that Martin Luther didn’t do jack shit to change the regime (see regime, reality… starting with R… both s-o-o-o-o-o Solid… ok, that starts with S.)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Have you all cleared Greece yet?

            • Theo Sismanides

              It’s unreal to clear Greece, lol. Greeks never agree with each other.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          Martin Luther didn’t change reality. Even by your crack-brained definition, in that not everyone in the Germanic States (there was no “Germany” in Luther’s day) agreed with him.

          Reality is not based on agreement.

          • Theo Sismanides

            Keep disagreeing! It’s no good for bowel movement though!

        • sugarplumfairy

          I love it when you’re masterful..

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist
            • sugarplumfairy

              Not THAT masterful..

            • Theo Sismanides

              lol!

          • Theo Sismanides

            I have to, it’s difficult to get across a point and get a straight question answered sometimes. Usually I am mild but if you love it… I’ll rethink, lol!

        • Lark Smith

          Not really, for your average citizen hoped that: the crops did not fail, that no armies passed through their village, and that the ruler of their state did not raise taxes. In later years the prince, baron, or king dictated what faith the people within their landholdings would have- their reality remained basically the same.

          • Theo Sismanides

            You people cannot see Cause(s).

            There are no Cause(s) for you. Like Luther caused it! No way!

            Well, Luther caused it my friend and as someone else said aided by some others.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              You are using the word “Cause”in a narrowly defined sense that is not recognized or agreed upon here. Ergo, the statement above has no bearing in reality, according to your own definition.

            • phronsie

              Exactly, DDD. Thank you!

            • Espiando

              I don’t have to see Cause. I’m at Cause over everything.

              Marty said so, so that makes it Reality.

    • Rex

      That’s like saying I change reality by getting out of bed and going to work.

      • Once_Born

        It is. It’s interesting how, if you unpack these fine words about ‘creating realities’ all they turn out to mean are, ‘I made things different by doing something’.

        We can all do this. What is about Scientologists that is different?

      • Theo Sismanides

        I don’t know. If you can do it for once… while you haven’t been doing it (former reality) you could call it your new reality. Getting out of bed and going to work. Reality is solid and as solid has some duration. it’s not like now it is, now it isn’t. It takes some effort to change something that has been for so long that it has become solid (real).

        • WhereIsSHE

          You had me at “I don’t know.”

          • WhereIsSHE

            Did you GET that DATA, Theo?
            I want to make sure we are in good ARC on this one.

        • Rex

          Yeah, we call that neuronal plasticity. (This is why a professional tennis player is better at hitting a tennis ball than, say, a bank teller.) We have all sorts of specific terms that work nicely. At least more nicely than the “solidity of reality.”

          • Theo Sismanides

            I don’t disagree. Neuronal plasticity. We might use other terms to define some things and situations but once explained to one those terms can be examined for validity. I think this is the essence of being human. Wanting to find out.

        • Rex

          Ok, let me reformulate my comment.

          “That’s like saying I change reality by waking up in the morning.”

        • Robert Eckert

          It’s actually more like saying you can change reality by declaring “I have gotten out of bed and gone to work” when you haven’t.

          • Theo Sismanides

            That’s a lie. To say something was done when it wasn’t or the opposite, saying something was not done when it wad done.

            Lying is a low order of “changing” a reality. Everybody else will see you didn’t do it.

            • Robert Eckert

              It doesn’t matter where anyone sees it or not.

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok, keep dreaming then. You are just in your “own reality”, you don’t live real reality because that’s formed by others too around you.

  • Alice Smith

    I use TENS and Gavlanic Stimulator for pain – and the e-meter is nothing like that. Actually, the e-meter shows very, very little to the auditor, which most Scientologists don’t know. But it does manipulate the PC. He sits there thinking the e-meter knows more about him than he does, which is liable to put him into a suggestible state. The e-meter reads on ANY emotion – surprise, disagreement, protest, hate, love, just any strong feeling. It’s not even as good as a lie detector

    • Rex

      And not nearly as sophisticated or useful as modern biofeedback devices that cost $100

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Fascinating choice for representative picture today, Tony. The “Clockwork Universe” … could take that a number of ways. There is that irony in scientology land that matter and energy, time doesn’t matter, only spirits matter, yet the machine runs on a Thursday at 2:00 pm week to week schedule like a clock that never ever stops…not for Christmas, not for disasters, not for a rewind, not for anything. Scientologists live by that clock as if they were physically plugged in and it does suck them in to its own universe. The title of course also reminds me of Clockwork Orange and there’s many similarities inside that classic too.

    • Observer

      I’ve always loved that pic.

  • Madora Pennington

    When I was participating in Scientology about 10 years ago (we stopped because everything was just too fucking creepy and it was obvious no one was getting spiritual gains), I did not take the “what is true is what’s true for you” as a suggestion to ignore what really is – which I think is what the Great OT really meant. The mind-control tricks in Scientology are actually amazing – many simple modified concepts that encourage people to ignore the crazy in Scientology.

    • Rex

      Exactly!

  • BananaSplits8

    Today’s post and comments have become an instant classic to me.

    So thoughtful, eloquent, diverse and emotional.

    I’m truly grateful to be hanging around this part of fringe of the internet.

    • aegerprimo

      I AGREE (and please don’t ask me to define that)

  • ze moo

    “Reality is an agreement”. Bullshit, the grizzly bear that is about to eat you does not have to ‘agree’ with you in the slightest way. How good you taste is totally subjective. Hey Yogi, got any more salt, this hiker is kind-of stringy…..

    • Captain Howdy

      So if every human disappeared overnight, who would be in agreement then? The animals? The plants?

      • ze moo

        The only ‘agreement’ among the animals would be the cows bitching to be milked and the dogs and cats going hungry because they don’t have thumbs to work the can opener. The universe goes on, whether humans are there to observe it or not. Yes if a tree falls in the forest, it does make noise, observed by people or not.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          Actually, it makes sound waves. If there is no receptor, no noise.

        • Captain Howdy

          Tell that to the scilons and the quantum “The moon’s not there unless some aberrated ape is looking at it” clowns.

      • WhereIsSHE

        EXACTLY, Cap’n.

      • sister wendy

        haha! yes!

    • WhereIsSHE

      You know what’s just as scary as a cult pushing this “reality is agreement” b.s.??
      I do.

      It’s legal corporations pushing lies through marketing, PR, advertising… when they KNOW what they are “pushing” is DEAD WRONG, and then buy commercial ad time on all the major networks in order to quash any MEANINGFUL “debate” about the consequences of consuming their products.
      (Just like Hubbard, but just as bad when you consider the real-life HARM… and the TAX benefits they enjoy.)

      Not sounding like a lawyer who spent almost 2 decades representing/defending these entities in court??
      You betcha I don’t.

      I am just disgusted with all of it.
      Disgusted at how one KNOWINGLY takes such sick advantage of others.
      SICK is how it makes me feel on the inside.

      We are focusing on a cult here, but the fact is that the tried-and-true brainwashing b.s. goes on every day, in one form or another, to all of us, whether we know (and/or accept) it, or not.
      It f-ing goes on, on this very blog.
      The notion that people who HAVE MORE (or claim to have more) somehow have opinions which should be REVERED MORE is a huge problem.

      Sometimes I am glad to hear Stephen Hawkings speak of the inevitable.

      If we don’t mass murder the fuck out of each other… the planet is –statistically speaking– on course to suffer it’s end (as we know it, at least) via an asteroid strike.

      So… yeah.
      Collect all the toys you like.
      It’s all going to be blown to smithereens down the pike.
      Sorry, culties, but no one– NO ONE– is going to survive THAT.

      My husband and I went to see “Blackfish” yesterday.
      It’s about how SeaWorld et al, but mainly SeaWorld, literally steals these baby whales away from their families; forces them to live in horrific prison-like conditions; and then, forces them to perform for food–and be subject to punishment if they don’t.
      (SOUND FAMILIAR, DWARFEN-FUHRER??)
      Well, guess what happens???????
      At some point, the whales are going to SNAP (out of their mental prisons) and they are going to ATTACK.

      Go on believing that you are so superior to them.
      Go on believing that they will never turn on you.
      Go on believing that they are too stupid to understand what has been done to them.
      Go on believing that you are adored… and wanted around.. .. and safe.

  • media_lush

    Kirstie watch:

    I think this her answer to people telling her scientology is a cult……..

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Odd statement in light of today’s topic.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      You’re such a liar, Kirstie. Discovery in scientology is one of the Sales “Gotcha’s”, after the Sec Checkers/Interrogators get through chewing on you. Discovery in scientology is fodder for blackmail and ransoming your children and grandchildren, or career or reputation. Discovery in scientology is the terror mechanism used to control unhappy customers or exiting staff.

      What will you preach if Your children are Declared because they “discovered” something they shouldn’t have discovered, Kirstie? Will you tell us how Beautiful it all is Then?

      http://i42.tinypic.com/2ufyhkn.jpg

    • Lark Smith

      Kirstie “Truth is what is true for you.” …and sometimes your truth is a Big Fat Lie creating bizarre reality with others who believe the Big Fat Lie. Which leaves you with Lying, liars, that lie and steal.

      • WhereIsSHE

        Can someone tell us her faux-scion name so we can see just how dedicated she has been over the last many years???
        Like.. what is her version of “Eve Darling”???
        Is she a total Operating FruitLoop.. or is she –as she appears to be– DESPARATEly trying to hold onto her former fame, and taking every teeny-tiny bit of HELP! that she can get.

        ENQUIRING MINDS want to KNOW;)

        • Lark Smith

          Honestly, I have no clue. She appears very irrational and juvenile in her texts. I think Fruitloop sums it up nicely.

        • media_lush

          Jabba?

          • Unex Skcus

            ^^^ ROFL

    • BananaSplits8

      My question to Kirstie would be: what’s your enlightening tweet to those who DID find out for themselves?

    • Once_Born

      It’s curious that that you have to guess what she means – her tweets are always indirect and never, ever include the word ‘Scientology’. How bad must the image of the CofS be if you dare not even use the word ‘Scientology’.

      • WhereIsSHE

        ^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        It’s, you know, embarrassing…

      • Lark Smith

        I think they are aware that they are in “reality” the Lunatic Fringe they keep talking about.

      • Observer

        Hubs’ superior comm tech is outside the ken of we degraded wogs.

      • sister wendy

        my memory is we aren’t allowed to disem on words and terms that may arc break the general public. So her comments are about creating curiosity, so someone will ask her about it and THEN she can reel them in.

    • Rex

      Sure, Kirstie – just don’t ever talk about your discoveries, because that’s Verbal Tech!
      Can’t have any communication about copyrighted course material.

    • Jgg2012

      As an aside, Kirstie deserves to make the top 25 list of people doing the most to destroy Scientology. People will disagree as to the exact order, but here is who I would rank as the top 9 so far this year:

      1. David Miscavige
      2. Leah Remini
      3. Mary Rieser (Georgia Narconon)
      4. Jenna Hill Miscavige
      5. Public Enemy #1 aka Tony Ortega
      6. OT8isgrrr8! and other Bloggers from the fringe of the internet
      7. Kirstie “stupid tweets” Alley
      8. Karin Pouw
      9. Shelly Miscavige

      • aquaclara

        Tony, Mike Rinder, Anons..the assorted .Narconon fails and the incredible NN-busters, followed by the lawyers collective. to me, these follow Número UNO Footbullet Miscavige. Without a doubt.

        • Jgg2012

          I left out a biggie–Laura D. Decrescenzo.

      • Jeb Burton

        LRH is always #1.

    • Jvm3

      Interestingly, “Where is Shelly?” Is the same thing everybody asked when Kirstie started on Cheers. That question must really bother her.

      • Observer

        Hahahaha! I never thought of that!

      • Rex

        Funny

      • Sydjazz

        I preferred shelley to kirsty on cheers. Kirsty was a whiny slut

    • GlibWog

      This is for you Lush.. xo I better get some upvotes.. It took me forever!

      • GlibWog

        OOps forgot to put Quotations around Krusty’s words..
        I found a pretty good picture of her.. I could have been cruel..

        but I chose to be the
        BIGGER PERSON.. ( well actually not!) hahahahhahaha

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Way to go! Beaming with pride for your excellent effort.

        • GlibWog

          Awwwwwwww L Wrong…. I just came back.. OMG 34 upvotes.. hahahah My begging was heard..bawwwwwwwwwwwhahhahahaha…

          Thank You .. Thank You… Pride.. ? Awww I thought it was Oiliness.. ( tee hee ) xo

      • Rex

        Awesome!

        • GlibWog

          Wow.. Taking a bow.. thank you Rex!

    • Bob

      It does make it real.

    • Observer

      But it only counts if you discover that Scientology is true for you. Otherwise you’re just an ignorant hater.

  • NeverIn

    Off topic – but I just gotta say: I’ve been coming here since the Leah Remini departure broke, and I am officially addicted.

    I’ve been interested in Scientology since I took a religious studies class on cults twentyish years ago and some auditor came to demonstrate the e-meter and the students generally agreed that Scientology was such an egregious scam it redefined what a cult was for us. I also had a couple of indirect connections to Tom Cruise, including an intense guy who was supposedly his nephew (and in fact looked just like him except for being a little younger and taller) who talked a lot about relative reality when I knew him. Back then, all of it just seemed funny to me compared to Jonestown.

    It’s not funny anymore. It’s shocking, heartbreaking, and harrowing, and the only happy part of the story is that the beans are officially spilled, and thanks to the likes of Tony O and everyone here, evil will no longer be allowed to hide in the dark.

    • Rex

      Great having you here, Neverin!!!

    • DodoTheLaser

      “..Scientology was such an egregious scam it redefined what a cult was for us.”

      What a great, thought-provoking line!

      Tnank you, NeverIn and welcome to The Bunker!

    • Jvm3

      Very interesting post. I’m curious, was the auditor who came to your class an active Scientologist and if so, was he aware it was a course on cults? Due to so much public awareness, that would never happen today, but damn I’d love to be in a classroom to see that train wreck!

      • NeverIn

        We were told he was an official representative of the CoS. FWIW, he was probably in his early-mid twenties and seemed comfortable with public speaking. I am sure he knew what the topic of the class was. We had such people visit from the Unification Church, ISKCON, and several others. The class was coached ahead of time to be polite so that the speakers would come back in subsequent semesters.

        That class taught me more about individual and group psychology than anything I’ve learned before or since.

        • cicely neville

          Thank you and welcome!

        • Jvm3

          I see. Rough gig for a young kid, but it probably beat working at the Sea Org. I’d imagine that back then the church was more comfortable confronting their cult image head-on. Thanks for sharing this.

          • ThetaBara

            Mucking out the elephant stalls at the circus probably beats working at the sea org!

      • Cher

        I’m with you Jvm. The very thought of watching that particular train wreck fills me with unbridled glee. Hell, I’d pay to watch that.

        • NeverIn

          Hey DM! We got folks here who would pay for a public demonstration! New revenue stream! What could possibly go wrong?

          • Robert Eckert

            If you really want to get his attention, don’t call him “DM” (or “Shortarse” or “Voldemort” or “Tinydick” etc.), call him David Miscavige. He DOES Google his own name; and he reads this blog and searches for his name, too, I feel sure.

            • Cher

              Does he really?

            • Robert Eckert

              I did read somewhere that he does Google his own name (though he probably doesn’t enjoy it so much of late). It is only my speculation that he reads this blog and searches for mentions of him, but sometimes when a down-arrower comes through I get the distinct feeling it’s him, can’t say why I feel so.

            • Missionary Kid

              If the comments on this blog are available to Google, rarely is DM’s actual name used.

              My list is well over a hundred, but some are spelling variations. He’ll have to use the exact name that’s been given him.

              Dwarfenfuehrer showed up when I Googled it, here, as well as other anti-Co$ sites. I would want to see them have to type in all the names, then Google them.

            • Robert Eckert

              I think Google only recently started indexing this blog; there were some comments to that effect from Mycroft and other tech-savvies. To see what is being said about him here, he has until lately actually had to come here.

            • GlibWog

              Just the thought of writing his full name makes me want to puke.

            • Missionary Kid

              That’s why I started the list of nicknames. I rarely write it, or spell $cientology the usual way.

        • NeverIn

          Technically I DID pay to watch that. Quite a lot, too – it was an ivy league school. Even so it was a bargain compared to actual auditing. That’s part of what’s striking here – that people pay more to get up the bridge than they would for an ivy league education.

          • Cher

            NeverIn- tut, tut who needs an education when you could be doing something as important as getting up the bridge. You might want to reconsider your priorities. Haha I mean come on OT super powers trumps education any day. 😉

    • GlibWog

      Welcome, Welcome… NeverIn .. Beverages served round the clock.. You will be a great asset! Glib

  • J. Swift

    Jon Atack’s ultra-precise statement is as good as it gets:

    “And don’t ever forget that: whether you believe or not, Hubbard knew what he was doing.”

    As Miscavige is proving once again, the Church of Scientology is all a great exercise in purpose-designed-futility with a heavy measure of cruelty thrown in for good measure. It is like being ordered to drain the ocean with a teaspoon and then being beaten for doing so.

    • sister wendy

      yes! I’m still always interested in the philosophy, what people are thinking, what they intended, etc…and then I remember that the main game was and is a giant money scam….evil…

      • J. Swift

        But it’s not just money. If it were just money the Church could sell auditing at $250 – $1,000 per hour and raise money for buildings forever. At its core, however, Scientology is about power and control and world domination.

        Per LRH, the purpose the Sea Org is to put Scientology Ethics in on the planet. This translates to the Cult attempting to take over education, mental health, religion, etc. This translates to the Cult running an intelligence, espionage, and fair game bureau known as OSA.

        Money is the means whereby the Cult thinks it can take over the world. Therefore, the more paranoid the Church becomes the more it must feverishly raise money in order to fund its ongoing war against the world, the internet, and SP’s.

        As part of its war, the Cult is opening Ideal Orgs at a feverish pitch as it thinks all of these buildings will draw in new public. However, this is not happening and will never happen for the simple reason that Scientology is an insane group that only a very few people would actually join in 2013.

        As the leader of the Cult, David Miscavige is greedy — but he is also delusional and actually believes that, given enough money and OSA warfare with SP’s — that Scientology can prevail and conquer the world using its technology.

        What Miscavige and Scientologists in general do not understand is this: The “technology” is
        actually a very arcane and tautological programming methodology that only “works” within the confines of the Cult itself.

        “Scientology works” is a claim of efficacy. Scientologists assert that the efficacy of Scientology in universal but this claim is false. The tautological and arcane programming methodology of Scientology is incredibly ineffective and requires continual repairs and troubleshooting that are expensive and labor intensive.

        Within his closed cultic system LRH knew exactly what he was doing. However, LRH had no clue of how the real world works and that is why Scientology is massively unsuccessful and extremely limited in the real world. Scientology only “works” out here to the extent in can purchase influence and pay wog lawyers and PR experts to mitigate its own
        incompetence, violence, and lunacy.

        • sister wendy

          Swift- this was so clearly said and well written. Thank you. I can practically copy and paste to people when they ask me about it. Helps me too as I’m looking for self forgiveness and making sense what I did while I was there… thank you:)

  • L. Wrong Hubturd

    Someone please slap me! I just wasted a small fortune of my life slogging through Theo comments. Never again, dammit never.

    • q-bird

      ***SLAP*** snap out of it – don’t worry – you’re gonna be okay.

    • Rex

      At least you tried… it’s like a rabbit hole, that really isn’t one, because you just end up where you started

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Morbid clip, but I love this film even with all of it’s warts.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ci44G8j1F0

        • Rex

          I love that film too. True to the book, in my imagination.

      • aquaclara

        That would be a groundhog hole. Like the cult, they hide, but emerge at night to cause havoc under cover of darkness. They dig deep, but in circles, so there is no real end to their damage. When you tamp down one hole, they find another one to emerge from. Oh, and they mow down my flowers zealously,leaving behind a barren, chewed- up bed of mulch,having eaten away any prospects for growth.

        • Jvm3

          Scientologists are eating your flowers?? They really are getting desperate

    • DodoTheLaser

      You should’ve seen some of my comments defending scientology, some other place on the internet a few years ago. Be patient, my friend.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Good to know. Thanks Dodo.

        • DodoTheLaser

          You are very welcome.

          And don’t forget Tory Magoo, who used to be OSA, trained auditor and on OT VII,
          “handling” the internet “entheta”, before she became beautiful SP that she is now. 🙂

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Ah yes. Calgon take me away. 2 minutes with Dodo and my blood pressure is experiencing a new and better reality.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNgZFxAnKtA

            • DodoTheLaser

              🙂 🙂

          • sister wendy

            I’m thinking maybe we should change the context (is that the correct English word?) of SP and instead of using Suppressive Person we should refer to ourselves as Sane Persons. I love teasing and happily call myself and SP, the more I realize in their context, I am…but really, don’t we really feel we are actually more sane?

            • Robert Eckert

              “Connotation” is the word you mean. “Context” means the surrounding words (if someone says “I don’t think Hubbard was great at anything except conning people” and someone quotes that as “…Hubbard was great…” that is quoting out of context).

            • sister wendy

              thank you

            • DodoTheLaser

              Sure. SP = Sane Person, Special Person.

      • Rex

        Good point, we should always be welcoming, and patient. This place is the disinfectant and the antibiotic (courtesy of The Proprietor) so I hope the indies/freezone come here

      • aquaclara

        Really??!! So glad we have you here on the side of reason!

        • DodoTheLaser

          Yes. I used to “enturbulate” internet “SP’s” on dial-up by posting huge hi-res pics of The Bridge To Total Freedom, blue, red and green volumes that would take forever to load and tell them it’s all big pharma’s/psych’s fault (all human woes) and scientology has all the answers. I believed it too. My sincere apologies.

          Thank you, Aqua. I am glad to be on this side now too.

          • noseinabk

            I think Theo is dipping his toes in the water. Also, he thinks he is funny. Maybe it just doesn’t translate well?

            • Rex

              Theo has been here many times in the past. I think he’s nutty, but the more the merrier.

            • DodoTheLaser

              I think Theo is a good dude. He just needs to educate himself more. Lurk on ESMB for a few month, may be even start posting there and engaging in conversations, like he does here, reading up on some science, psychology, philosophy. Reading some novels, making more friends, etc. imo

          • aquaclara

            No need to apologize, my friend! It is so delightful having you here. But methinks you must have made a very bad Scilon!

            • DodoTheLaser

              lol I’ve tried really hard to be a very good scilon for about 15 years, trust me.

              And then scientology broke my thetan. 🙂

    • Robert Eckert

      Slapping doesn’t always help.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKOoB50iiTc

    • sister wendy

      ohmigod! I just did the same thing!!! I even made a comment…which was pointless as the conversation went into Pointless Land!!!! Argh!!!

    • Missionary Kid

      It took me a while, but I finally realized that he got probably all of his history of Martin Luther from a film about him. I called him on it, and he didn’t reply.

      So much for $cientology style research.

  • Sydjazz

    That hurt my head.

  • Rex

    Wow. I have to say, I have been following Tony’s investigations for years now. But I’ve never seen such an increase of new posters who are ex- or current SCN, indie, or freezone…. what a great place for people to congregate to sort out the fraud of Hubbard.

  • Unex Skcus

    Totally Off Topic… but I had to share Aussie Senator Nick Xenophon ‘jamming’ along with many of our Federal politicians prior to our election in a couple of weeks:

    http://youtu.be/5H7BTKTOwLE

    Who says we Aussies take ourselves seriously?

    • DodoTheLaser

      Not sure what’s this all about, but Senator Nick Xenophon rocking mean bass gets my vote. Epic.

      • Unex Skcus

        From the story at http://junkee.com/rudd-abbott-palmer-and-katter-took-part-in-a-punk-rock-clip/17640 on this:

        If there’s one thing about politics we can all agree on in an
        election year, it’s the fact that it goes round and round. A new clip by
        Canberra band Super Best Friends illustrating the fact appeared online
        overnight, and is simultaneously the dorkiest and coolest thing you will
        be treated to this election.

        “Our bass player Matt Roberts spent a lot of his free time hanging
        around Parliament House,” reads the press release, “and with his wit and
        charm, managed to convince several federal politicians and well-known
        media personalities to be in our new film clip.”

        This song is already more exciting than anything that’s happened in the actual election campaign. Maybe instead of watching the debate tomorrow night, we could just watch this again instead.

        They also managed to get our current PM, plus the Opposition leader, and so on, into the clip.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Thank you! Fukin A!

          • Unex Skcus

            “Fukin A!” ??? You must have a bit of Aussie in you?

    • Jvm3

      I have to plead ignorance of the Australian electoral system, but I saw where the Daily Show introduced the U.S. to the “Turbo Sarah Palin”.

      http://youtu.be/6_1SFf8t-ko

      She could run here in 2014 as a lulz party candidate.

      • Robert Eckert

        It makes me feel much better to know that other nations besides the US throw up occasional candidates of such qualities.

  • Captain Howdy
  • DodoTheLaser

    Sweet dreams to all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BXNRwxNeNM

    Lisa Gerrard – Come Tenderness

  • Jeb Burton

    Hard to believe, but Marty has an interesting post about why the squirrel busters imvaded his home.

  • Theo Sismanides

    From the book Scientology 8008. If Jon Atack has a say on what reality is then I can also post what LRH has to say about it. Start Disagreeing people and create your own Realities. Do no accept the “Reality” of someone else.

    Start of quote:

    Reality is established by wave direction or lack of motion.

    As one ascends the tone scale from 0.0 he finds the realities are strongest at the points

    of flow and are weakest at the points where there are ridges on the scale.

    The reality of apathy, grief and anger is very poor, but in the immediate vicinity of

    these there are more intense realities. Reality is established by agreement or disagreement or no

    opinion. Agreement is an inflow to the individual; disagreement is outflow from the individual;

    no opinion can be established by the proximity of the individual to the center of a dispersal or

    by a ridge.

    Because of its wealth of energy and energy forms, the thetan finds himself ordinarily

    outdone in energy emanation by the Mest universe. Thus he is the target of an almost

    continuous inflow which causes him to have a consistent and continual agreement with the

    MEST universe. He seldom disagrees with the MEST universe, and the best processing one

    can do is to break this agreement and turn it into an opposite flow, for only in this wise can a

    preclear’s ability to handle energy and be responsible for it be re-established. If you ask a

    preclear to get the concept of agreeing, he will find himself experiencing an inflow upon

    himself.

    Hypnotism is performed by causing a subject to receive a continuous rhythmic or

    monotonous flow from the operator. After this flow has continued the subject will accept any

    reality which the operator cares to deliver unto him. It is in this case, evidently, with the MEST

    universe, and the solidity of the MEST universe is completely dependent upon one’s

    acceptance of it in terms of agreement.

    Reality in essence is agreement or disagreement. When one speaks of reality, he speaks

    in terms of the MEST universe. The MEST universe, according to any computation one cares

    to make upon it, is found to consist of a high-level agreement amongst us. Those who disagree

    with the MEST universe are punished by the MEST universe.

    From the standpoint of the MEST universe, the greatest reality would be had by matter

    itself and this seems to be its evident goal toward the thetan, to make him into solid energy.

    The reality on one’s own universe is poor because he is in a comatose state of agreement with

    the MEST universe. It is found on processing, however, that a preclear is in poor condition in

    direct ratio that he has accepted and agrees and complies with the MEST universe, and is in

    good and active condition in direct ratio to the degree he can break this flow of agreement and

    establish his own flows and thus create his own universe. One’s appreciation of the MEST

    universe is almost uniformly the energy which one himself places upon the MEST universe, in

    other words his illusions. When he loses his hopes and dreams (his illusions), it is because he

    has lost his ability to emanate energy back at the MEST universe and is dependent upon the

    energy the MEST universe thrusts at him.

    • Jeb Burton

      Blah, blah, blah. How could anyone ever swallow this hogwash? I hope im not punished by the MEST universe for posting this.

      • Theo Sismanides

        I am sorry to say, you are already being punished by the MEST Universe, bringing you down to a solid body level and agreeing to that.

        It is found on processing, however, that a preclear is in poor condition in

        direct ratio that he has accepted and agrees and complies with the MEST universe, and is in

        good and active condition in direct ratio to the degree he can break this flow of agreement and

        establish his own flows and thus create his own universe.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Ohhhh, Theo.. I’m sitting here at work reading this, in tears.. I’m sooo sad for you.. I’m sooo sorry Scientology was able to target you and get inside your head so profoundly.. I hope someday you make your way out.. Best wishes, my friend..

          • Theo Sismanides

            oooh how thoughtful of you and how 1.1… Don’t be sorry, be effective. Come up the tone scale…. I am already out and more in than you. In and out, as I wish and when I wish.

          • Artoo45

            I feel your pain SPF, but the poor man is gone, replaced by the delusional dreck from Hubbard’s broken mind. He still thinks that ” . . . so many people talk about and do Scientology every day of their lives.” He must not get out much.
            He lives in a world of Fifth Invader Forces, Evil Phychs, Space Station 33, Implants, Prison Planets and the general mayhem of this end of the gaLAXy.

        • Robert Eckert

          We have wondered why so many Scientologists die young. Now we understand.

          • Theo Sismanides

            Do you have statistical figures that more Scientologists dies hard than non Scientologists? Then you are talking about Science when all you can do is utter opinions. Find a real actual survey and statistic proving what you said.

            • Once_Born

              There aren’t any. Scientologists do not provide access to researchers because they are afraid that an honest assessment of their claims would break the illusion.

              This is similar to your inability to answer my question (which you ignored earlier) here it is again.

              “If enough people believed that walls were not solid (and created a new reality) do you think those people would be able to walk though walls?”

            • Theo Sismanides

              Well, then don’t say it. As for this article, just providing the Xenu story instead of what is ARC or Reality shows the agenda of all those paid minions of the Global Enslavers. Earth has been a Planet Prison. No one of those people wants you to find out who you really are. This is why philosophy is so out-dated in Universities and non applicable.

              This is why so many people talk about Scientology and do Scientology everyday of their lives. This is why more and more people will be reading one way or another and most out of their own will about Scientology.

              the days of out-dated philosophy are past. New Knowledge has arisen and the church though it has been bought off or at least compromised, still does some work. indies are freer to practice and Scientology will be heard more and more, no matter what people think. Because it carries with it some new lessons and it will help Man understand better. Those who know best, of course, will never want to accept it and will do anything in their power to get people away from Scientology. But life as it moves on and becomes more and more complex will necessitate that new knowledge for a man to stay sane. \

              People don’t belong anywhere because there is nothing to belong to. Only football teams probably and even those don’t keep their funs happy. Life is changing rapidly what you or Tony wanna say or whoever else. So, keep on critiquing without really looking. That’s your choice. Mine was other.

            • Once_Born

              a) I didn’t say ‘it’ – you did.
              b) If Scientologists don’t have the confidence to allow scientific examination, that, in itself, indicates that they probably have something to hide.
              c) Have you studied academic philosophy?
              d) Did we actually read the same SA article?

              http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-real-science-behind-scientology

              BTW, I keep asking this question (which only needs a yes or no answer) but you ignore it: Please try to answer – I think I would understand what you saying more clearly if you did provide an answer.

              Q: If enough people agreed that a wall was not solid (and all changed their reality) would you be able to walk through that wall?

            • Theo Sismanides

              My answer is NO and you should have understood it from what I have been writing or if you had read a bit of Scientology.

              So, it’s NO… you can’t do such a thing. A wall is solid, more solid than ideas (or sometimes not). You definitely cannot walk through a wall because there are other agreements that keep it there. However we could agree to bring down the wall which is more real to people instead of walking through walls which simply isn’t real to people even to thetans.

            • Once_Born

              Thank you for your answer

              If I understand correctly:

              You believe that Thetans have no special powers over the material world – but, if there are enough of them working together, they can knock down walls and change the way a whole society sees the world – this is what you mean by “changing reality”.

            • Once_Born

              Earlier you posted this quote, “[…]the solidity of the MEST universe is completely dependent upon one’s acceptance of it in terms of agreement”.

              It seems to me that Hubbard is saying that the solidity of matter (which includes walls) depends only on you accepting a general agreement that it is solid.

              In other words, Hubbard is saying you are wrong – you can walk through walls if only you persuade enough people that this can be done…

            • John P.

              Similarly, gravity is just a theory, so one can do an imitation of Wile E. Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons at will if one has simply managed to harness enough Sooper Powerz of OT-ness.

            • Theo Sismanides

              John P. you are a very smart person and a very active blogger. To me this shows that you are brave and with good intentions.

              Gravity once might not exist. And then just the notion of gravity might come in someone’s mind (of course I am talking about things that happened elsewhere and far back probably in other galactic systems).

              See, the internet didn’t exist some years ago. Someone gets the idea, some agree to it in the beginning, then more and more agree and now the masses are on the internet and it cannot be unmocked. It’s real. But some years ago if you said this to someone, that communication through Greece and the US would be feasible in writing instantly, they would think you are crazy.

              That’s how new realities are formed.

              Oh, yes and “physical” laws are no exceptions except that those realities were formed loooooong ago and it’s a “bit, just a tiny bit” harder to undo as agreements in our current state.

            • Theo Sismanides

              No, no, no… see it can be interpreted like that but that is not really feasible just like that. (and I don’t know at which level it would be feasible).

              Scientology operates on gradients, step by step progress. To my knowledge there is no human being not even a scientologist who can do that.

              Hubbard has delivered many lectures and in the upper lectures he definitely said things that might sound crazy to non initiated people.

              But Hubbard defined Reality as follows in the Tech Dictionary which is even for people who start scientology:

              REALITY, 1. is, here on earth, agreement as to what is. This does not prevent

              barriers or time from being formidably real. It does not mean either that space,

              energy or time are illusions. It is as one knows it is. (COHA, p. 249) That’s from the book Creation of Human Ability.

              I hope this clarifies things.

            • Jgg2012

              Numerous Scientologists have committed suicide. I know of known living past 75 (the average age in the US).

        • phronsie

          There are all kinds of new age religions out there, so believing what you believe is okay until you use it to pull people into losing their money, their families, and the preponderance of their lives in perpetuating harmful fraud. I know you love your technique and your group jargon, but it is anathema to others; what you see as freedom is the essence of enslavement to me. When you can practice and share all your techniques openly and without monetary incentive and can express your concepts without the fog of jargon, only then will more people believe your claims of freedom….

          • Theo Sismanides

            Jargon is for those who studied things. One is not supposed to use those words with people who know nothing of Scientology, just because they are not going to understand anything. I am not responsible for all those using jargon on the net or in straightforward conversations with people who don’t know scientology.

            On the money part and abuse I have left the church and do not belong there anymore. There is an independent movement which is much more sane. I belong to them.

    • Lark Smith

      I wonder whether the great “Source” was on pink and grey happy pills when he wrote this very long and deluded load of horse crap.

    • MadMaxi

      Has all the depth of a high school stoner writing in his journal at 3am, after smoking some really good weed listening to Floyd’s “Animals” or “Meddle”. One second thought, the high schooler’s tome would most likely be clearer since he was not trying to sound so pompous.

  • Theo Sismanides

    AXIOM 35. THE ULTIMATE TRUTH IS A STATIC.

    A Static has no mass, meaning, mobility, no wave-length, no time, no location

    in space, no space. This has the technical name of “Basic Truth”.

    • John P.

      Sound like it should have the technical name of “Basic Gibberish.” This is Hubbard at his laziest and worst: making up stuff that is supposed to sound profound and eternal but coming up instead with something that merely makes no sense. Most axioms, such as those for geometry, make intuitively obvious sense to those who read them for the first time. Hubbard’s trash, not so much.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Think of a Static, John P. I think it’s a good process for you. you can decompress a bit. Oh, and if you have anything you can’t understand in the axioms don’t hesitate to ask me. There might a word there you didn’t really understand, no offence.

        • Veritas

          Suffice it to say that John P’s I.Q. is at least twice that of Hubbard’s. And John P knows a lot more about nuclear physics and philosophy than Hubbard. (Actually, come to think of it, so do I.)

      • Jgg2012

        Just clear the words.

  • Theo Sismanides

    AXIOM 38. 1: STUPIDITY IS THE UNKNOWNNESS OF CONSIDERATION.

    2: MECHANICAL DEFINITION: STUPIDITY IS UNKNOWNESS OF

    TIME, PLACE, FORM AND EVENT.

    1: TRUTH IS THE EXACT CONSIDERATION.

    2: TRUTH IS THE EXACT TIME, PLACE, FORM AND EVENT.

    Thus we see that failure to discover Truth brings about stupidity.

    Thus we see that the discovery of Truth would bring about an As-is-ness by

    actual experiment.

    Thus we see that an ultimate truth would have no time, place, form or event.

    Thus, then, we perceive that we can achieve a persistence only when we mask a

    truth.

    Lying is an alteration of time, place, event, or form.

    Lying becomes Alter-is-ness, becomes Stupidity. (The blacknessof cases is an
    accumulation of the case’s own or another’s lies.)
    Anything which persists must avoid As-is-ness. Thus, any thing, to persist,
    must contain a lie.

    • Jgg2012

      Lying is the only way to control someone.

  • Jgg2012

    Hey, we’ve had 1,000 comments!

  • Jgg2012

    Speaking of reality, Kirstie has this to say today:

    Kirstie Alley‏@kirstiealley

    “it’s sad when people cling to their lies as if they will protect them…couldn’t be further from the truth. Lies are arsenic for the soul”
    uh, yeah, right Ms. Alley…if someone tweets hypocritical things, they don’t make themselves look very good.

  • Vinay Agarwala

    REALITY

    Wikipedia

    “Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible. A still more broad definition includes everything that has existed, exists, or will exist.”

    .

    Scientology

    “Reality is, here on earth, agreement as to what is. This does not prevent barriers or time from being formidably real. It does not mean either that space, energy or time are illusions. It is as one knows it is.”

    .

    KHTK

    Reality is the direct perception of what-is. Any abstraction that remains consistent with direct perception, such as, mathematics, is also part of reality. Inconsistencies with reality, gives rise to unreality and unwanted conditions.

    .

    COMMENTS:

    Scientology believes that reality arises from agreement. A group of people, such as, the Flat Earth Society, can have its own reality of a flat earth regardless of what others say. One may even hold on to the reality of a universe different from the physical universe. Thus, in Scientology, an individual may create his or her own reality and hold on to it.

    In KHTK reality is what is perceived through mindfulness. Mindfulness is seeing things as they are without assumptions. Reality becomes clearer as assumptions and inconsistencies are removed. Thus, one’s assumptions are not part of the reality that exists. If a number of people believe in flat earth, then they are simply sharing an assumption, which is not part of reality.

    http://vinaire.me/2013/07/31/philosophy-definitions-1/

    .

  • USA MRIID

    ” Explaining the cosmology of Scientology for A Piece of Blue Sky was a struggle.”

    ROFL! Ya think?! The insane fucking conman was stoned on quality dope and alcohol all his life, after age 30 the insane loon never drew a sober breath. Obviously his mental problems and core criminal urges produces his freakish writings. That’s what mental problems and heavy drug use does to the brains of already profoundly insane conmen, it makes them worse.

  • phronsie

    I don’t think I could study scientology “teachings” because, among many reasons, I just couldn’t deal with the made up words and definitions. I would say, “Okay, sure I’ll give it a go, just re-translate everything back into the common language and I’ll look at it.” I’m sure Hubbard thought he was hip with his slang and re-purposing words like some poseur of the youth culture, but It’s just too “precious” and self-indulgent for me.

  • skippress

    I was in contact with two men who were in the hospital with Hubbard. Neither knew I communicated with the other. They both said that Hubbard was NOT injured to any great degree, more a hypochrondiac who drove the doctors and nurses crazy because he complained all the time. Blind? Sure, to anyone’s needs other than his own, but his eyes worked fine. Reality – his sucked, and so did he.

  • BuiltForComfortNotSpeed

    Jon, you said in the article above, “Hubbard tells us that reality is “agreement.” Then you proceed to debunk his philosophy based upon this insane notion.

    In 1966, a psychiatrist told me the exact same thing. He said, “Reality is what we agree is real.”

    Not defending Hubbard. Just wanted you to know your argument needs a bit more thought.

  • Attila Kaluza

    It’s so full of contradiction. Reality of the real world ah ah ah….How little they about the real world..

  • Attila Kaluza

    I love Scientology…it makes me understand so much who really are all those who criticize it…