SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

Jon Atack: Did L. Ron Hubbard want to be considered a god?

Jon_AtackJon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than a year on Saturdays he helped us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet. He was kind enough to send us a new post.

Jon, we told you we’d be interested in your thoughts about a recent item by former Scientology executive Marty Rathbun. At his blog, Rathbun pointed out that there are multiple accounts of the life of Jesus, not only within the books of the New Testament but also in alternative texts that were edited out of the Bible. But Scientology, he points out, doesn’t allow alternative views. Its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, went to great lengths to make sure that only his take on things was considered “source” and couldn’t be altered.

And Rathbun says that Hubbard enforced that fundamentalist view by suggesting that he had “descended to earth in human form in order to deliver its people from evil.”

In other words, Rathbun is saying that Scientology is a “monotheistic” religion, and Hubbard is its god.

Says Rathbun: “There is only one God in Scientology, and…the adherent will believe it because that God has commanded that it will never be appreciated by appeal to reason.”

What are your thoughts, Jon? Was it Hubbard’s aim to achieve the status of a deity?

JON: Wow! In Blue Sky, I argued that Hubbard was seeking apotheosis (from the 1990 edition):

Most of Hubbard’s thousands of followers regarded him as more brilliant than Einstein, more enlightened than Buddha, and quite as capable of miracles as Christ. Perhaps there was a more sinister motive underlying Hubbard’s actions. Some Taoists believe that human beings can achieve immortality by becoming the focus of worship; some Roman Emperors had a similar belief. The deification of Hubbard seems to be taking place in the Scientology Church throughout the world. Maybe he thought he was gathering up all of his devotees’ shed body-thetans so that he could use them for magical purposes? (To quote from his secret Affirmations again: “elemental spirits are my slaves”). Given his fertile, and often juvenile, imagination, and an awareness of his duplicity, it is hard to decide what Ron Hubbard really did believe.

The next stage in this marvelous process of awakening logic in the erstwhile Thetanist is the realization that if Hubbard wanted to be admired and adored as the God of the universe then perhaps the ‘Tech’ has a different purpose (it also means that he didn’t follow his recommendation never to want admiration, in the Code of Honour. But he did explain that only the very elite make rules for the lesser beings — the “players” to impose on the “pieces”). The Tech exists to create adulation in the god-making process that Hubbard was set upon. The perfect narcissistic process. It does not work to liberate, but to entrap. To do this, it must evoke the right feelings. Any simple procedure will bring about euphoria — fixated perception, repetition and mimicry all bring about “very good indicators.” Keep them coming back for the buzz of light trance, which also has the advantage of making your feel not just happy — perhaps even “high” — but also of disorientating you, so that you no longer feel as if you are in your body. Even though you can’t actual perceive from this position.

If you can take over the language, too, you can take over the thought patterns, as George Orwell pointed out in the superb appendix to Nineteen Eighty-Four. You can make certain ideas unthinkable; condition disgust with shared enmity towards some out-group; and have gleeful meetings to celebrate your believed superiority over the lowly “wogs” (and the “wog-reverts,” like me).

The hardest part to accept is that belief is comparable to other addictions, compulsions, and obsessions. By repetition, behaviors are entrained. The brain chemistry of a “floating needle” is doubtless the dopamine stimulation that attends pleasure — from sex, to drugs, to gambling. It gets you high with “very good indicators” as the first indication that you have reached a “win.” The hypnotist — or “auditor” — sees the euphoria (a first indication of trance: recognised by hypnotists for a century before Hubbard), it means that the person is in a state that will last beyond the testimonial, sometimes for several days. Sometimes, as with other forms of hypnosis — but only rarely — for a lifetime. But almost always within three days, the buzz will wear off. The devotee will feel the let down, and accept personal PTSness — the roller coaster effect of normal life, where that euphoria is generally non-useful, because it lowers defenses, and makes us more willing to take a subservient role. The Tech always works, but the imperfection of the paying customer/serf is the cause of all problems (which somehow don’t vaporize after Grade 1 Release). The serfs — and I mean them no disrespect by that term, but it is accurate — are given varying status, in a military fashion, and put under extreme behavioral controls — ascetic and exhausting — so that they crave higher status (which always ends in a Suppressive Person Declare or the Rehabilitation Project Force. No single executive has lasted more than a few giddying, soul-destroying years of utter obedience to Our Ron.

The Tech works not as the Source said it works, but as he intended it to work. That is the lie in Scientology. The “alter-is” that ensures that it persists, in Hubbard’s convoluted terms. With this realization comes the ability to disagree with Ron Hubbard and regain self-determinism, rather than being completely identified with his ideas, even when he contradicted so many of them.

But it is a great feeling, when you realize you can pick and choose what you want to believe by using your own experience and critical thinking. The ability gained is embarrassment that you believed a set of suggestions/affirmations offered by a criminal (who “accused others of things he himself” was doing) who wanted us to believe that he was Metteya. (In A Hymn of Asia. The Hubbard original was altered by John Sanborn before publication. Hubbard wrote “I am Metteya” not “Am I Metteya.” Sanborn held it up from publication for over 20 years with this protest.) He was not Metteya, as Metteya will lead us all into nirvana, during his own lifetime. He won’t “drop the body” first. Hubbard has missed that one, but could still aim for Demiurgical status. The old Power processes directed some people to the “cognition” that the Founder was indeed The Founder. That was back in the 60s. OT VIII inevitably boosts this conviction. You only have to watch the public testimonials. The gleeful state that passes for “enthusiasm” (being “filled with God,” literally) and the overblown worshiping language of those testimonials. I wrote plenty of embarrassing “success stories,” but I’ve had 30 years to reconsider. If Hubbard created this universe, I think I’d rather be in another one.

THE BUNKER: Thanks for that view, Jon. And what fun to see you and Marty Rathbun actually in agreement about something.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on July 31, 2014 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer

 

Share Button
  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ RED X +–+RED X +–+ RED X *** Statsday the 31st of July
    Good morning USA & Canada
    While Europe was asleep the West coast got busy

    Yesterdays List starts here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-106#post-2474529

    This morning NEW additions here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-106#post-2474529

    The Regional List and previous daily lists in our google speadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty Narapoid

    • DodoTheLaser

      Because RED X works and helps people. (refresh)

    • Pierrot

      This morning new additions link is now corrected

      • Juicer77

        TY for extending July until the 39th 😉 I’m so busy I need those extra days. Just kidding…
        Keep up the good work y’all.

    • aquaclara

      Apparently, none of the ten remaining members in San Fran can take a vacay without posting ads first….it’s like a flurry of ants to the picnic. Lots of new ads in the past 48 hours-let’s get’em while they’re warm!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Once upon a time, Hubbard would say – just kidding, if pressed hard about his tall tales.
    Since he wasn’t challenged enough about his lies, later on, he lost it and became a Buddha with body thetans.
    The End.

    • Victoria Pandora

      It is a sad tale for the man himself. And I do feel sympathy, (VERY low toned;) for him.
      But, I am furious about the lives he dragged down with him.
      However, we now have Jamie De Wolf, who is da bomb.
      Jamie has a new movie out, he is currently asking people to include it to their Netflix queue.
      This will help him get it distributed.
      Netflix will not let you add it, if you are steaming only. Just if you have the DVD subscription.
      Just thank the gods, my daughter is a follower of Jamie, and not “mankinds best friend”

  • With a lot of exes, the last 100% certainty that seems to go are the paired beliefs of Ron is always right / The Tech always works. (Although Gerry Armstrong seems to have started by discovering Ron Ain’t Right.)

    As a foundation belief where a lot of people normally keep their deity belief, I suppose that makes Hubbard a god.

  • RBE

    Maybe some ex-Scientologists in the Bunker can help me out here. Whenever I here that “the Tech always works, if it doesn’t then it hasn’t been applied correctly” that is a big red flag to me, a fine example of the special pleading fallacy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading ). How did you/people you know justify not getting the wins you were promised (assuming you had an idea beforehand what the course you were doing was supposed to achieve). In fact what the hell is a win anyway?

    • cdub

      Read Jon Attack’s article above and then try to follow the path wherein the subject gets a temporary high. In non-Scientology language, he’s explained how we all were seduced into (take your pick) the win/cognition/success cycle.
      A “win” is some realization you’ve had that your life has improved by your application or use of the “Tech”.
      The justification you’re asking about is that, even if we didn’t get a “win” personally, we were helping build a movement.

      • RBE

        So a “win” is just a high or realization, but nothing more tangible and non-subjective?

        • NOLAGirl

          For me, a “win” is when the boys in my house don’t eat the last cannoli. 🙂

          • Peter

            And a “win” it is if you’re a cannoli junkie! LOL Like chocolate, there are more mind altering things than psychotropic drugs!!

            • Missionary Kid

              For me, there are far more satisfying things than a high, temporary, or long term. A feeling of accomplishment at making a change in myself, or helping someone else do so, or building something.

              What you don’t seem to understand is that, for instance, antidepressants do not produce a high, but often enable a person to function at a much higher level. It is not LSD. The use of lithium often enables a person to function who is bipolar, and, as a result, engages in self-destructive behavior.

              Alcoholism is often the result of self-medication to either maintain a high or to cover up a problem. Alcohol also alters perceptions as well as a person’s ability to respond to perceptions.

              When LRH developed stole the ideas in Dianutty, the drugs available for treatment and the treatment of mental patients was quite crude.

              In the intervening years, huge advances have been made in the development of drugs to treat mental conditions. In essence, a cannon was fired off just to get into the door. Now, at least medicine is just walking up and turning the handle to get in. The tech is stuck in the 50s and beyond.

            • Peter

              I’m certainly not going to get into the whole drug scene which changes by the month. There are those that are antidepressants, there are those which calm people down. Can you say that you’re an expert on them all, that they all work as advertised, that no damage ever occurs from using them even as prescribed? That they are overused is, to my mind, very clear. Quickie solutions in too many cases. And it has still not been established what the effects may be on the young as they grow older. What I always recall are those dreamy ads in women’s and family magazines, with happy results and two following pages in 6 pt type with all the warnings. Which, of course, no one reads.

            • Missionary Kid

              Again, the absolutist phrases. Yes, they are overused, but in the great majority of cases, they help. The problem is that each drug acts differently on each person, and the results need to be closely monitored. It often takes 4 to 6 weeks for the effects (both positive and negative) to show. All drugs have effects. The desirable ones we call effects, the undesirable or extra effects that have no use are called side effects.

              If we judged aspirin by your absolutist standards, it would not be allowed for over-the-counter sales. 5% of people are allergic to it, and 2% have extreme reactions to it.

              I am not an expert, but I have personally witnessed a huge group of people who have benefited from them, as well as had problems with them. They, at least, are able to speak of their therapy if they want. Often, they will be complaining about a side effect, and others will say, “Have you told your doctor about that?” Often times, I’ve seen it turn out that the medication was changed in order to reduce a side effect. People forget to tell their doctors important information.

              Also, it’s known that drugs sometimes lose their effectiveness on a patient over time. You seem to believe that a drug takes effect immediately. Psychiatrists are usually more careful in their use than regular MDs, IMO. They monitor the patient more closely because they usually examine a person’s mental state more closely.

              The idea is not to keep someone on a drug, but to help them manage their lives so they don’t need it any more. For some people, particularly psychotics, that is impossible.

              If you base your judgement on ads, you’re a fool. Period. Think of all the ads for products on TV that don’t work or certainly don’t have the effect. Does driving a Corvette make you sexier, or changing your hair color suddenly make you more attractive? They all work on fear and desire.

              Now drug ads have that rapid talking at the end, “Drug X may cause…” It’s too bad that $cientology doesn’t have a similar disclaimer.

            • Peter

              My comment, my friend, had to do not so much with the pretty ads, but the incredibly long lists of of possible things which could go wrong by taking it. Again, which no one reads, nor do they pay attention to that rapid talking at the end which can only touch on a tiny segment of those printed ads. As for aspirin, I haven’t taken one for about 50 years as I realized intuitively that they were not good for me. And, other than a few pain killers for the excruciating pain of gout, I take no other drugs, either. (I found ways to prevent the gout in the first place, so as not to need the pain killers.)

            • Missionary Kid

              Those are only POSSIBLE side effects that have been noticed in clinical trials each person usually only has one of those effects. Some people do pay attention to the ends of the ads. Some people are also hypochondriacs who imagine that they have all of the symptoms. It is important to know one’s own body and monitor their health. For prescription drugs, when there are side effects, it’s important to notify the physician.

              I have no apparent side effects from aspirin, which I would rather take than some of the alternatives. I don’t have to take it often, but I can’t take it within 48 hours of when I’m scheduled to donate platelets, because it acts as a blood thinner, so I revert to acetaminophen. I may take about one dose every two months of a pain killer.

              Many people have no side effects, or the extent isn’t important in the scheme of things.

            • Peter

              MK, by the oddest stroke of fate, the FDA has reversed it’s decades old support of aspirin and this article just appeared in my email today. You take aspirin at your own risk. (Lots of water, btw, will help thin the blood. As well the donation of blood itself thins the blood.) http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/08/04/daily-aspirin-side-effects.aspx?e_cid=20140804Z1_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20140804Z1&et_cid=DM54467&et_rid=609910019

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m not donating whole blood, but platelets. I would imagine that it does temporarily thin the blood, but the reason for not using aspirin has more to do with the blood’s ability to coagulate.

              I would say that probably lots of water only thins the blood temporarily, since the body soon eliminates it. The problem is that in taking larger amounts of water that the urine will eliminate will also carry away electrolytes, throwing them out of balance.

              The article you referred to is only about the use of daily aspirin to prevent heart attacks. It says nothing about the use of aspirin as an analgesic or to reduce swelling.

            • Peter

              Well, I do about 60oz of water daily, recommended even by most doctors nowadays and virtually all naturopaths and others in non medical fields. Critical for cleansing the 70%+ of the water of which the body is made.

              As for aspirin as an analgesic, it was originally derived from white willow bark, a naturally sourced analgesic used by native Americans a long while ago, but readily available today. By altering it’s makeup, the drug company was able to patent the “new” analgesic and thus benefit financially in a major way. The “habit” of aspirin by so many (many tons annually) continues to benefit them. As for reducing swelling, an ice pack works wonders. When natural remedies exist, I prefer them to the altered substances provided by drug companies. http://www.uni.edu/walsh/OTC.pdf

            • Missionary Kid

              The recommended amount of water also includes the water that is included in foods that we eat, so, especially if you’re eating fruits and vegetables, 60 oz of water by itself is far above the recommended amount.

              I’m not a fan of “cleansing.” That’s what the whole purif bullshit is based on. On the other hand, it is important, IMO, to allow the body to get rid of or metabolize something.

              Many drugs are from folk remedies, with the compounds isolated from the total drugs contained within and isolated from other, less useful compounds. I’m not advocating the taking of aspirin for prevention of heart attack. I’m also not usually into, nor able to, walk around with an ice pack to reduce swelling. I probably take a dosage of aspirin about once a month or two.

            • Peter

              Well, m’friend, I would dispute the amount of water which is in most of the foods eaten nowadays, much of it fried and/or coated in something or other. And for those with gout, 100+ ozs of water daily, regardless of food intake, is regularly recommended.

              In terms of health, “cleansing” is certainly something to seriously consider, particularly in light of most daily diets and all the chemicals which have been added to foods and meats.

              As for the drugs from folk remedies, isolating the drugs from the original source in order to profit from them generally results in the alteration of that isolate and, as one can read from the labels, creates contraindications. I much prefer getting the whole package as nature arranged it. You may make other choices with no disparagement from me.

            • Missionary Kid

              I happen to be a very healthy 69 year old. Since I have no problem with gout, but do live in the desert where during the day, the humidity is often in the low teens, I do drink a lot of water.

              Since my bp is low and I drink a lot of water, I eat all the salt I want. In terms of isolation of chemicals in drugs, I don’t put much weight to the theory that the problems are caused by isolation from their “natural” chemicals that surround them. Some of the most virulent poisons are totally natural, yet drugs have been derived from them that are quite beneficial when used properly.

              I believe that you have made an assumption that the contraindications are caused by isolation. I would like to see any research you have on that. As I said before, everything has effects. The undesirable ones we call side effects. Sometimes those side effects are beneficial when used for treatment of other ailments, but are detrimental to the person who reacts unfavorably to them when used for the normal purpose. That’s why there is a contraindication listed.

              As to aspirin, the only profit that comes from using a brand name is due to the advertising of that brand name, and the people who fall for that and buy it. I buy generic aspirin. Bayer’s patent on it expired over a century ago. When I’ve had to use Tylenol, I use the generic form.

              I’m well aware of the problems with aspirin, especially for children. I also try to take it with food, which lessens possible side effects.

              There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

            • Peter

              You speak with wisdom, MK, something I’ve observed in your posts for quite awhile. I also love your “lists” and, especially, the great variety of them you’ve collected. Thank heavens for computers!

              I also live in a lot of heat, but with high humidity often. But even when I lived in a much cooler area with fairly normal humidity most of the time, I’ve did my water habit pretty well. I also avoid tap water and drink the cleanest I can obtain. It seems to have done me well. I, too, have a naturally low bp so am not concerned with salt, though I don’t overdo it.

              The only real assumption I’ve come to is that drugs are not “normal” to the body and can cause unplanned changes which can negatively affect me. I’ve come through some pretty tough stuff from abusing my body, mostly with sugar which caused a lot of problems. (Sometimes when I read on this blog what some folks are craving and eating in the way of sugar, I cringe! LOL) I finally got that totally under control and the body balanced itself out. I eat as healthily as I can afford, walk regularly and am beginning an exercise program. I’ve got a few years on you but would describe myself, too, as very healthy. I’ve had neither cold nor flu for at least four decades. Given that as a youngster, I was plagued with them, I feel good about that particular change. I literally cannot remember the last time (other than a gout attack) I had any need for pain killers of any kind. And headaches, which I used to get regularly, also seem a thing of the long ago past.

              I do a fair amount of research when anything new comes along and gently will test out some supplement once it’s been out for awhile, reading numerous from more than a few sources, including medical ones. I’ve found Dr. Mercola to be quite good and he’s got a deep net library. What I’ve generally found is that whenever some medical drug comes along, I can easily find a safe natural remedy, available either in a health food store or online, which handles whatever that problem might be. And far cheaper.

              You’re quite right regarding TANSTAAFL! 🙂

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks for the compliments. The lists started because I thought that some of the things that were posted here were quite profound, funny, or insightful. They have all of my quirks included.

              I’m quite lucky. I picked the right parents. My mom lasted until she was 86, my dad, 90, and my mom’s mother 96. Tough old Swedes. Stubborn, too. I inherited that as well.

            • Peter

              You’re right about picking our parents. Lessons to be learned. As far as life physical challenges, mine had more than a few and both passed on well before my age. However, all my many siblings are still alive, one brother five years older and quite healthy. I also tend to “think young” which, I’ve found, helps a lot. Most who meet me tend to underguess my age by 10-20 years. I get a kick out of it when that happens. 🙂 I dig the stubborn! LOL Good trait.

            • PreferToBeAnon2

              What about all of the Scientology side effects? Things like withholding appropriate medical care to prevent seizure, violence, and the onslaught of disease; coerced abortions; painful disconnection from family who love you; putting terrified children in chain lockers; being thrown off a ship with your hands bound; having to push a peanut on the ground until your nose bleeds; having your eternity threatened if you don’t clean a septic tank with your bare hands or 3-foot grease trap; or being put in a trash can with a sign that labels you as a lesbian while people scream at you to confess a crime. Where is the small print on that?

              Ask Lisa McPherson about the side effects of her care.

              Give me something tested, peer reviewed, and proven over time with the freedom to change course, sue, or sing out any day.

            • Elendira

              Inspired by PreferToBeAnon2:

              USDA Warning:

              Product: Scientology
              Warning, using product on daily basis may include side effects, such as: Separation from reality, Separation from family and friends, Unable to receive timely medical/ psychological care, Children may be taken from you by the Sea Org., Cleaning bathrooms with your tongue, Coerced abortions of adults and underage women, Death, Suicide, Insanity, Massive credit card debt, Personal and professional bankruptcy, Constant degrading from superiors, Constantly being regged for “donations,” paranoia, May develop phobia of Thursdays at 2pm.

              Suddenly stoppage in the usage of the product may include: Disconnection, Spurious Lawsuits, Stalking, Smear websites may appear on Internet, Home break ins, Dildos arriving at your place of work, Squirrelbusters taking videos, 24/7/365 Surveillance, Family members and work associates may receive dead agent packets, OSA using your fingerprints to make false bomb attacks, suicide, phone tapping, may acquire significant other who will encourage you to commit suicide or may attempt to kill you and make it look like an accident, Child Protective Services may arrive and try to take your children

            • Baby

              Peter.. OMG .seriously.. Antidepressants have saved my life.

              Are you touting the benefits of Scn beliefs.. Dangerous grounds to support. Actually very scary.

              We can go around this issue for years and we wouldn’t change each others minds.. sigh

            • Robert Eckert

              “Can you say that you’re an expert on them all”? How about you? Did you have even the most meager knowledge about any of them? All you do is repeat the propaganda from the Scilons.

            • Peter

              Ah, Robert, I was wondering when you were going to ring in.

              From a lot of the posts here, especially yours, ANYTHING said by a scilon is, de facto, FALSE and the opposite side of the statement must then be embraced. It’s kind of like a reverse mind grab. Tag! you’re IT. And you become just as “controlled” as you claim the scilons are.

              I’ve stated it here before that one of the reasons that scn is still around, and especially why it flourished back in the early days, was because there WAS some truth in it. Cons, especially long running ones, only work because there is SOME truth in them.

              Drug use is endemic in the US particularly. If you’re not a believer, you’ll have to do your own research. (I’ve seen you simply pooh pooh an excellent site I sent you to with glib words. Won’t bother again.) I come from the time when thalidomide babies were being born, thousands of them. (Go back and find the stories and, especially, the photos, of those babies.) It was an APPROVED drug for its purpose. It had been tested according to the rules of the time and the FDA had approved it. There were NO warnings about what it might do to a fetus. And, even after they began to surface, there was no hurry about curtailing its use. It profited the drug company by hundreds of millions of dollars. But if scn had objected to it that would be proof, to you, that the drug must be good? Or that its use had “benefits” for some?

              A great many people have become deeply concerned by the rather routine cataloging of rambunctious children as either ADA or ADHD with consequent enforcement of drugs. Too, as posted earlier, there is also a concern about the connection between psychotropic drugs and young people going on killing rampages. All those drugs, btw, are sanctioned by the FDA. They are extremely powerful and NO ONE knows the effects which can/do take place while on the drugs or if taken off. As well, the brain chemistry of each individual is different and making accurate predictions is impossible.

              None of this seems to have attracted any concern from you, Robert If the CCHR is against it, it MUST be okay. Many others are against it, too, none of whom have any connection to nor interest in the CCHR. But I seriously doubt it will affect your views re drugs and psychiatry in the least. You’ve a real fixation, methinks.

            • Robert Eckert

              “ANYTHING said by a scilon is, de facto, FALSE” It is not false BECAUSE it is said by a scilon; but most things the scientologists say do, in fact, turn out to be false.

              “I’ve seen you simply pooh pooh an excellent site I sent you to with glib words.”. The site you sent me to was a pile of crap.

              ” It had been tested according to the rules of the time and the FDA had approved it.” This is the exact opposite of truth. The FDA refused to allow it in the US because it had been inadequately tested. Other countries which did not do that kind of testing learned to their sorrow that testing is necessary. This is the kind of thing I am referring to: you have been told some false version, and parrot it.

            • Peter

              First, Robert, you’re somewhat correct re the FDA. They did not have the power to “refuse” it into the US, nor did they do so and I misread something while researching that. (If they had done so, the stuff would not have been available for so many women to take it.) Sen. Kefauver did take action to give them such power. However, priorly they did nothing to warn the public about the potential harm. It took the media to do that when all those horrible births began showing up.

              “….but most things the scientologists say do, in fact, turn out to be false.” That is what is referred to as a blanket statement and is nothing but your opinion.

              As for your opinions regarding psychotropic drugs, you’re not even remotely in the mainstream. The fact that they may have stopped taking the drug and then began murdering others has nothing to do with the confirmed fact that the drugs themselves have proven to exacerbate the emotions supporting such actions. And whether or not they’d stopped taking it has nothing to do with their actions. Such drugs can remain in the system for weeks. And in most cases I’ve read, the violence takes place within days of going off such drugs. In other cases, they were still ON the drugs. Your statement proves only your obstinacy in the defense of drug taking as a solution. Knowledge of brain chemistry is still in its infancy.

              From one psychiatrist: http://www.breggin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=304

              “Aaron Alexis, (Washington Naval Yard killings) was taking the antidepressant trazodone. Alexis was reportedly started on trazodone for sleep on August 23, 2013 at the Veterans Administration (VA) clinic in Providence and refilled on August 28 at the VA in Washington, DC. Twenty days later, on September 16, he committed the violent assaults. Severe adverse drug reactions such as suicide and violence typically occur in this relatively short time span after starting an antidepressant. Individuals with a known history of violence like Alexis are at even higher risk of being driven to more extreme violence by exposure to antidepressant drugs.

              Antidepressants can cause a broad range of stimulating amphetamine-like adverse drug effects that will then cause or contribute to violence. The official FDA-approved label for trazodone lists the following stimulating effects: “anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania and mania.”

              Although commonly used as a sleeping pill, trazodone nonetheless can be very stimulating for some patients. It has higher reported rates than other antidepressants such as paroxetine (Paxil) and sertraline (Zoloft) for causing anxiety, nervousness, excitement, and hypomania, which are risk factors for causing violence. Trazodone blocks the removal of serotonin from the synapse in the same manner as the SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) like Prozac (fluoxetine), Paxil and Zoloft; and therefore has similar dangerous effects.

              The trazodone Medication Guide, found toward the back of the FDA-approved label, warns about patients “acting aggressive, being angry or violent.” It also warns about “Acting on dangerous impulses” while taking trazodone.

              More from the good doctor via Variety: http://variety.com/2013/voices/opinion/breggin-1200327696/

              “Huge efforts have been made by the pharmaceutical industry to prevent the public and the health professions from knowing that antidepressant drugs can cause violence and suicide.

              Joe Wesbecker had threatened his co-workers in the past, but had never been violent. In 1989, Wesbecker was placed on Prozac (fluoxetine). One month later, he became agitated and delusional. Suspecting Prozac as the cause, his psychiatrist stopped the antidepressant. Two days later, with most of the drug remaining in his system, a heavily armed Wesbecker walked into his former place of work in Louisville, Ky., where he killed eight people and wounded many others.” Much more in this article and he really nails it re the Columbine killings, really giving the lie to your statement.

              I could go on and on regarding this subject with all kinds of links proving up what I’ve been talking about. You’d ignore them all. So because the CCHR has taken a stand on it does not disprove, as you seem to believe, the truth of the allegations.

              “The site you sent me to was a pile of crap.” My, Robert, what an astute statement, really laying out any specious facts you might have cared to support. Not. As it happens, Dr. Hardt is a highly experienced and trained researcher, extremely well known in his field of biofeedback for over 40 years. Many of his scientific articles are posted on that site (crap?) and he is a well known speaker and author on the subject of the brain. I suspect, by your mudslinging comment, that you have neither training nor experience in the field and you thought nothing of dissing a scientist of note who has been hired by such as the Department of the Army (Green Beret troops), large corporations and who has done landmark work the Canadian First Nation individuals. You really do owe him an apology, not that he’ll ever get one.

            • Robert Eckert

              “They did not have the power to “refuse” it into the US” Yes they did.

              “nor did they do so” You are mistaken again.

              “I misread something” You bet you did.

              “If they had done so, the stuff would not have been available for so many women to take it.” There are other countries on the planet besides the United States.

              “And whether or not they’d stopped taking it has nothing to do with their actions.” It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

              “In other cases, they were still ON the drugs.” You have not shown me a single such case. You have falsely claimed that this was so in cases where the evidence says the opposite.

            • Peter

              No, Robert, they did not have the power to do so under their 1938 regulations, the latest at the time. It was only accorded them after Senator Kefauver proposed and passed legislation AFTER all the mutilated children were being born and the media had gone into a frenzy about it.

              “It has EVERYTHING to do with it. As usual, you never bothered to read through the articles I provided in the previous posting.

              “I misread something” You bet you did. Yes, I did, and admitted it. Am I supposed to rent my clothes and do penance to satisfy you? LOL

              “You have not shown me a single such case. You have falsely claimed that this was so in cases where the evidence says the opposite.” Well, old fellow, I did provide evidence in my previous post which you are ignoring…deliberately. If you have some specific case you’re talking about, let me know. Your vagueness and generalities are really something else.

              It’s very clear, dear Robert, that you truly have some particular axe to grind with me. You have been quite acidic in all your responses and even accused me of still being in scn. It’s quite clear that you know little, of anything, about the results of drugs and absolutely nothing about brain chemistry or how long drug effects can remain in the body. Again, you never bothered to read the links I sent you. Talk about fixed ideas! LOL

          • joan nieman

            Or if you can stretch your money out to almost the end of the month.

        • cdub

          Sure.
          All the benefits people received from Scientology were in their heads.

          Unfortunately the end result of every Scientology exercise is always
          something like I JUST WENT EXTERIOR or a realization that, as a
          being, I (control) (created) (have power over) _________________
          [fill in the blank, whatever the procedure is called]. You might be
          thinking the end result is something provable, like bending a fork
          with your mind, but Scientology isn’t like that. It’s never something
          provable. Instead it’s always ‘I just realized …’ blah blah blah.”

          • RBE

            If this is the case no wonder Scientology is so secretive and you are not allowed to discus your case with others. These “wins/highs” must be so delicate that even someone looking at you the wrong way could bring you back down to earth. I thought there was something more substantial keeping people doing Scientology (other than the disconnection threats, etc). Wow, Scientology really is worse than you think.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Wife can’t discuss her case with her husband, nor hubby to wifey. Not one word. No one knows what another member of $cientology thinks about “the scripture” nor the “end phenoms” of any auditing/training/processing.

              It’s part of the mind fuck in the Prison of Belief.

            • cdub

              it’s a mind-fuck

          • Peter

            “All the benefits people received from Scientology were in their heads.” Isn’t that what any personal win is? If the girl says “yes” to a marriage proposal or an invitation to spend the night, isn’t that a “win” in one’s head? Is it any less of a win than winning a race? Or the applause from what you knew was one of your best performances? Friend, EVERYTHING is in our heads, wins, losses and life in general.

            • cdub

              Well I can take a class in computer programming and then get tested and complete it and get a job and prove that I can program such that the website doesn’t crash.
              But in Scientology’s world I take the basic introductory course (training routines) and express my amazement (success story, floating needle, win) that I’M TOTALLY IN PRESENT TIME and how is an outside, independent agency supposed to independently prove my claim? Well in truth, it’s forbidden that an outside, independent agency do anything to prove or disprove the “win” I had.
              That’s the Scientology way!

            • Peter

              Of course, you’d have to apply that to any form of counselling anywhere. Life, to me, is not about getting everything I’m doing proven by some outside source.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Saying ‘yes’ to a marriage proposal isn’t a ‘win’ – it’s a ‘decision’.
              A decision isn’t a realisation. The first is purposeful, the second a consequence.
              A realisation isn’t a ‘win’… but the Scilons call it that.

            • Peter

              Sorry, I didn’t quite phrase that right. If the GUY asks her to marry him and she says “Yes”, I would surely forgive him for thinking/feeling it as a “win”.

            • EnthralledObserver

              So now feeling happy and or relieved is a ‘win’. LRonny and his invented vocab – nothing muddles the issues more so than that.

          • EnthralledObserver

            This was what Mosey’s ‘win’ looked like on that tape Marty posted on his site. I questioned it – ‘is that it?’ quite underwhelmed by what I was seeing and got chewed up for invalidating it for Mosey – but seriously – that IS all it was – a realisation, in this case that we shoudn’t hold on to our ‘baggage’ – ‘well duh’, I said… the Indies didn’t like that much either.

            • cdub

              you got it. you’re understanding how Scientology works from the inside. Taken out of its context it is pretty mundane. But within one of their centers, where everyone is playing by THEIR rules, the realizations expressed by clients in that embarrassing language of theirs makes sense.

            • Peter

              If she hadn’t HAD that realization previously and WAS hanging onto her baggage, I’d call that a significant win…for HER. What you think of as “duh” could change someone life and the way they look at it. How many people do you know who are NOT carrying old baggage around? Sheesh!

            • EnthralledObserver

              Hold on there, matey… it’s not enough to ‘realise’ you shouldn’t hang on to your baggage … but you must actually ‘release’ all your baggage for a positive result – WHERE in $cientology does that happen? Did Marty film that bit – NO! I call BS. There’s no action in $cientology beyond handing over some cash so someone can mess with your mind.

          • Peter

            I think you’d pretty much get the same result from personal counseling, wouldn’t you? Someone on the list mentioned that IQ changes should be provable. Well, sort of, if you trust IQ tests. In my case, it turned out that my IQ *had* gone up. Not a significant amount, but upwards. That was tested by Mensa. So does that actually mean anything? Damned if I know.

            If I enter some process to better myself, why would I need to prove my gains to anyone else? That’s sheer BS. Currently, since no real auditing seems to be taking place anywhere in the system, I guess the NEED to prove it is stressed. My only point in all my posts here is that things have dramatically changed ever since Hubbard went totally off lines. Yes, he definitely set up the potential for what happened. Yes, he made one hell of a lot of errors. Yes, he lied about a lot of his life. All that said, *I* got a lot from the practice as did many others.

            As for talking about one’s case with another, sister, brother, husband, wife, it was suggested (back then) that being in the middle of a process, it could skew results by getting opinions of others. It was not, at that time, FORBIDDEN. Once anything was completed, I was always free to discuss it with anyone I chose. Hell, while I’m working on something even now, I don’t usually bring it out until I’ve made some progress with it.

        • Peter

          One doesn’t get auditing to obtain “non-subjective” wins any more than someone goes to a psychiatrist of psychologist to do that. In both situations, you’re in there working toward some PERSONAL change in your life. Why else would you be there? As for “nothing more tangible,” isn’t that in the mind of the beholder?

          • RBE

            Isn’t someone who is clear supposed to have perfect recall? That can be tested objectively. How about a raised IQ? That can be tested objectively also.

          • Missionary Kid

            The problem with Co$ auditing is that it is controlled by another person whose goal is to get the person to conform. Good (IMO) therapeutic practice dictates that the client is in control

            So, what does Indy auditing consist of?

            Something more tangible can be when the person changes their behavior. That is not only in a person’s mind. It is actions.

            One of the reasons, I believe, that $cientologists keep doing the same stupid things over and over is that they believe everything is in one’s head. Ultimately, it is both internal and external change that makes a difference.

            • RBE

              The whole the universe is in our heads and/or Scientology version that you can create your own universe is a bastardised version of Phenomenalism that can be traced back to George Berkeley, David Hume and others ( http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_phenomenalism.html ). If it were true surely all these OTVIII’s that the Freewinds is pumping out should be able to imagine money and have it pop into existence, thus making pointless the need for regging.

            • Missionary Kid

              It does work – in their minds when they’re being regged to poverty. Once they get home, they have to face the reality that all that money they’ve postulated doesn’t exist..

            • Peter

              I can certainly see your point here. However, coming from “ancient” history, I certainly never expected those kinds of results. But I noted that certain mental and emotional blocks I’d had either softened or just disappeared which then opened the way to take action to get what I desired. I never expected the kind of magic to do things instantly. Nor did most of the folks around me.

            • Peter

              I don’t know where you ever got the idea that auditing was created to make people “conform”. If that were the aim, it failed miserably with me. ROFL

            • Missionary Kid

              One of the things that it’s obviously done for you is convinced you that it’s more effective than other means of counseling. It worked for you.

              There are many different types of therapy, and auditing, especially externally directed, is not.

            • Missionary Kid

              To add, you make a lot of statements about psychiatrists and drugs, yet you haven’t witnessed the people who they’ve helped.

          • Anonymous

            Hubbard structured and sold the “gains” of Scientology to be both subjective and objective. Those combined claims are are throughout his books and tapes. It even used to be stated IN WRITING on the Grade Chart (during Hubbard’s lifetime.)

            It is only in a courtroom (or in the Four Unconscionable Contracts) where the church says there are “no claims made” and admits that Scientology only “works” when someone thinks it works.

            The realization that it’s all subjective usually is only arrived at after a great deal of time and money has been wasted.

        • Elendira

          One of the worst things about Wins is that they merely everyday occurrence or physical phenomena, just given a new name or much more overblown significance. Pulling together multiple unrelated facts to get new ideas — its not a win, its call synthesis, its what the human brains does all the time and it is something we try to teach to our students in schools all the time i.e. creative thinking and essay writing.
          The worst our these Superpowers that they guarantee. Take for example, I use to distance run before I seriously broke my ankle. At certain times during long runs, I would begin to feel euphoric and feel like I was no longer in my body — that “me” and my body were two separate things and that I could run forever. Its called a Runners’ High, and completely natural, and not a superpower, but doesn’t it sound awfully familiar to what Hubbard describes for “exteroization?” (sp). Hell, guess why the SRD is just running in circles in a dark room?

          • RBE

            Thanks for your reply. There is a recurring theme with Hubbard, that of repackaging/renaming existing things. Whether it be Freudian analysis or the everyday physical phenomena as “wins”. I am sure a large percentage, if not all, people in the Bunker has had and continues to experience the “wins” that Peter describes elsewhere in this thread. I get “wins” from reading book on science, by understanding a tricky area of mathematics or by looking out across a valley and contemplating the forces of nature that produced it. Nothing magical here, and I certainly don’t need to be hooked up to some Easy-Bake oven via soup cans and hand over cash to get these “wins”.

      • Peter

        I had highs which “temporarily” remained with me for several months. And despite the “don’t talk about your case”, which really was meant to keep you from screwing up your current auditing, we often spoke of our specific wins and how they’d affected our lives. There was far less of the vagueness now in vogue.

        • Missionary Kid

          IMO, that’s bullshit mind control. My goal is change in a positive way. Sometimes, upon discussing what went on in an auditing session (it was a form of auditing far removed from LRH’s concept) or a therapy session, by discussing what went on, I sometimes gained further insights or ended up modifying what I had decided on.

          In $cientology, by keeping everything to oneself, one becomes beholden to the system, or the chirch or the auditor. Transference occurs, and it is directed towards the “tech” or LRH.

          It’s ironic that in $cientology, one isn’t allowed to discuss what went on in an auditing session, but everyone else involved does, and their innermost thoughts and feelings are open season for those people. How fucked is that?

          • joan nieman

            I suppose it is meant to be contained in the thought or idealism of Scientology itself. If someone were to share their “wins” with the “wog’ world, then, scientology loses ground. Keeping the idealism contained in the bubble is what makes the mind control work.

            • Missionary Kid

              That’s a very good point, Joan. If $cientologists shared their “wins,” with the wog world, they’d be subjected to disbelief, questioning, and ridicule of the $cientology viewpoint. It might make them wake up and leave, and $cientology can’t let that happen.

    • Missionary Kid

      The sneaky part of the way things are structured, IMO, is that a lot of what happens is a result of group “hysteria.” Once the group starts expressing a particular emotion, it’s easy for even the people who don’t have that emotion, to start to feel it. In addition, since people are forbidden to talk about their “case,” they assume that the person next to them who is talking in vague generalities is experiencing something wonderful, that they’re missing out because they don’t feel the same. It’s an emotional blackout.

      • GSioux

        Reminiscent of the fairground revival meetings of my youth – group hysteria induced by gospel hymns (Just as I Am etc.) and fervent directive pleading, followed by invitations to come forward and receive “the lord” into your heart. Although, as a child, the hysteria ended for me as soon as I was led to a separate room and asked to pray out loud to “the lord”. I became fascinated at an early age with the ability some people had to “embrace” others with their power. Still hoping my brother will loosen the shackles!

        • Missionary Kid

          I’ve sat through more revivals, bible camps, and other gatherings where the call to the cross was done than I could count. I take it your brother is a devout evangelical. I doubt he will change. After all, just like $cientology, he’s concerned for his immortal soul. In their case, existence in future lives.

          • GSioux

            Not that you should remember – truly! My brother is a devout (public) $cientologist practicing dentistry in Clearwater.those are the shackles I hope he can loosen, meaning “blow”.

            • Missionary Kid

              Since he’s right in the center of their hell, I doubt he’ll blow soon. One can always hope…

            • GSioux

              Thank.you. For many reasons, I believe you are right about that. The family history, his early history. We will see! There are supports should he want to leave – that is heartening.

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          NO GSIOUX NO!

          Pentecostal Fantasmagoria is not to be confused with Scientology’s Glee of Insanity!

          • GSioux

            Missionary Kid spoke of how “catching” the group hysteria can be. And I noted how “reminiscent” that is of my early revival gig. And how short-lived it was for me. Not to be compared seriously to &cientology”s ‘Glee of Imsanity”.

    • Peter

      If you’ve not EXPERIENCED one, how could anyone explain it to you? Wins are experiences, new awarenesses, the clearing of fogginess on some subject, sudden realizations, etc.

      • RBE

        I have had sudden realizations, the clearing of fogginess, etc but I wasn’t attached to some soup cans and I didn’t have to pay for it. Was this Scientology?

        • Peter

          Not that I know of. And good on you for getting them on your own. That, to me, is a “win” for you. I’m still getting those kinds of realizations, still working on myself and hope to do so up until the last breath.

      • Missionary Kid

        I’m wondering if you’ve ever experienced working with a good professional therapist.

        • Peter

          Yes. Why?

          • Missionary Kid

            For comparison.

            • Peter

              And? Both helped. I got considerably more from my auditing, however. And got into the area of spirituality which was not generally a subject of interest for most professional therapists back then. The experience of others may differ.

            • Missionary Kid

              I don’t relate to “sprituality” for psychological therapy. I would imagine that for that one should go to their guru or pastor, or a person knowledgeable in whatever faith a person chooses to practice.

              My philosophy is, whatever float your boat, but to me, any smattering of auditing that has even a smattering of LRH in it, is essentially evil, as he was.

      • George Layton

        hummmm they could try giving a specific example.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Doesn’t any new experience by nature involve new awareness and reveal new information?

        • Peter

          Yes. Very good point. Sometimes, though, the new awareness or information is life changing. That does NOT mean, however, that one doesn’t have to take the information and DO something with it to make the change effective.

      • EnthralledObserver

        What RBE said in response to this, Peter – have you never had a realisation outside of the use of $cientology – what did it feel like, did it compare? Be honest with yourself. What was different? Was there an unexplained (and unnecessary) element of euphoria?

    • Phil McKraken

      The Tech fails for no TRUE Scotsman.

    • scnethics

      “How did you/people you know justify not getting the wins you were promised?” It’s easier than you would think. There’s this narrative that goes something like this:

      “Hubbard set out to help mankind and he discovered and organized this amazing body of knowledge called scientology. With scientology we can all achieve a higher level of existence and finally rid the world of war, crime and insanity. Furthermore, scientology provides a pathway to full enlightenment and freedom from the need for a body and from the cycle of birth and death.”

      The way you become a scientologist is by swallowing that whopper hook, line and sinker. After that, your mind weaves every experience you have so that it fits with that narrative, and with the “tech”, which is all the other crap Hubbard said (volumes and volumes of crap).

      In life, you constantly see things that do not match up with that narrative or the “tech”. Scientologists are not always ethical, and are rarely enlightened. No one gains photographic memory when they reach “clear”. Everyone gets colds and gets sick. Most have problems with money and marriage, and some have substance abuse problems. Meanwhile, wogs are not all unethical and screwed up like they should be, and the vast majority of them have no interest in scientology, which is weird considering how great it is.

      I say all this to point out that it’s super-easy to explain away your own failures in scientology. It’s one of the easiest things you do. If you bought into the narrative, it probably means scientology “worked” for you in some way, and everyone says it ALL works ALL the time when correctly applied, so you go ahead and buy that too. If it doesn’t work for you, the “tech” has all sorts of explanations for that. One of the most common thought-stopping phrases in scientology is “something was missed”. This means that although a person completed an action, there was some indicator that it was not actually complete, which was overlooked by the auditor or case supervisor. You WANT everything to fit with the narrative, so you’ll grab onto any excuse you can and then put it out of your mind.

      It’s more challenging, in my opinion, to look at the world around you and continue to believe the narrative. This is why most scientologists isolate themselves from the wog world as much as they can. If you are surrounded by scientologists, virtually everything they say will fit with the narrative. The narrative is like your nice, comfy bed in the morning, that you never want to leave.

      • RBE

        Thanks for your detailed reply. The existence of the internet and the fact that the media are generally not afraid to take on scientology anymore, means that isolation of the scientology Truman Show is going to get harder over time. Whether the outcome of this is effectively the death of the church or a reformation of some kind that removes the more objectionable practices of scientology I think we will probably see in five to ten years (maybe sooner if the IRS grows a backbone).

  • cdub

    Sure, Ron as deity. Prior to the Sea Org he had his great mind set on taking over some country, any country, he seemed to think an African country would do, making him into an emperor probably. So add godhead to the list as well.
    Enforcing Ron’s demand that there is only one tech and that be his “Tech” also eliminated the troubling route he took when he invented Dianetics and Scientology, namely all that magick mystic affirmation stuff. He studied it well but he sure didn’t want anyone else in on his secret. That’s where Miscavige missed the boat, he should of been practicing hypnotism and incantations and affirmations. Miscavige is going to pass away, as we all must, someday and then there’ll be nothing but cowed leaderless children to lead the cult and it’ll all go up in flames.

    • Missionary Kid

      The phrase popped into my mind, “Thou shalt have no other tech before me.”
      I know, too much bible.

      • Dr_Orpheus

        “Thou shalt have no other source but me would probably suit Hubbard better.”

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup. He was a jealous god pimp.

      • cdub

        I knew there was a biblical reference in there somewhere when I typed that but I couldn’t place it. Yeh.

      • George Layton

        add: “or after me” and that should work.

        • Missionary Kid

          That’s excellent, and it is true, but I was trying to do a riff on the biblical line, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

    • Gerard Plourde

      I don’t think that Miscavige practicing hypnotism or incantations would help him control the cult. The difference between Hubbard and Miscavige is that Hubbard’s megalomania combined with his shrewdness (not to be mistaken for intelligence). Hubbard could con people because he possessed enough knowledge and chutzpah to encourage people to let their guard down and allow themselves to be conned. These are the attributes of the classic con artist. Miscavige lacks these attributes and is required to resort to the use of brute force alone. Only those already entrapped stay and even those can begin to see through the charade if they’ve been abused enough and begin to make Jason Beghe’s immortal demand.

      • cdub

        My line of reasoning goes like this: Scientologists, gullible fools that they are, are obsessed that some secret vault of Hubbardism exists somewhere and once found they can use it to dig themselves out of their rut. Ok so far. Now we plant the rumor (true actually) there is such a hidden treasure trove of knowledge and it is the mysticism-magick stuff. I’d roll over laughing when the insiders start down that path.

        • Gerard Plourde

          I’m not sure I understand your target audience for the rumor. Members are pretty well conditioned to reject anything that doesn’t come from official church sources because of the likelihood that it’s been altered (“squirreled”). I doubt that Miscavige has any use for the occult stuff. As for the Freezone people, they too seem wedded to the “tech” as delivered by Hubbard and would probably not be interested in the “magick” stuff either.

      • Jon Atack

        Shrewdness not to be mistaken for intelligence. How true! He wasn’t a genius, he had a flair for manipulation (and as Jeff reminds us, he was a very naughty boy). He told people what they want to hear – there is no death and you are a god. Then he explained that only he would ever be able to pierce the veil and understand reality. No matter how OT (or OTT) you become, you will never have the ability to develop tech. As he said in the PDC, the guy who makes the game doesn’t have to follow the rules. He makes them up for the players, whose job is to keep them hidden from the pieces. How telling!

        • Gerard Plourde

          Thank you. “Praise from the praise-worthy is beyond all rewards.”

  • Alanzo

    Jon wrote:

    The brain chemistry of a “floating needle” is doubtless the dopamine stimulation that attends pleasure — from sex, to drugs, to gambling. It gets you high with “very good indicators” as the first indication that you have reached a “win.”

    We’re Spooge Monkeys.

    The Brain Spooge is everything.

    Praise Ron!

    Alanzo

  • MaxSpaceman

    The Real Ron – The Realer Ron – The Realest Ron http://freedom.lronhubbard.org/

  • hansje brinker

    .

    • hansje brinker

      Ron was a real God: (refresh)

      • Missionary Kid

        OT: That reminds me. I got annoyed at someone who was going on and on about how Jesus died for my sins, so I retorted, “So did Che Guevera.”

        Realize, I’m no fan of Che, but I was getting pissed off.

        • Peter

          Interesting that I’ve never seen anything which testifies that he died for MY sins. That’s primarily Catholic Church talk from about the third century onward, He said some very interesting and useful things, to my mind, but not that he was going to die for my sins. 🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            So, how do you explain the whole crucifiction? Yes, that’s a part of dogma, but that’s what the dogma says. I don’t believe it, either.

            • flexible

              In the wrong place at the wrong time? lol

            • Missionary Kid

              Amen.

            • Peter

              I don’t doubt the crucifixion took place as it was a common form of punishment in both Rome and Greece in those times. And make no mistake that Jesus was considered a rebel by the Romans, along with many others they crucified.

        • hansje brinker

          Hhaha, I understand!

        • hansje brinker

          No thanks Ron, I am my own God.
          Good luck.

          • We are all Gods who forgot that we are Gods.

            Can I intrest you in a small course for 25 bucks ?

            -Ron

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    Alexa update for July 31: *refresh for images*

    Tony: US rank #18,955 – down 898 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 21,985)
    scientology: US rank #58,711 – down 3,541 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 63,113)

    Difference: 39,756 – 5,358 more than yesterday. (Average difference last 3 months: 41,127)

    Clicks from India – 6,4% today.

    Recap – July 2014:

    Tony:
    highest – 17,019
    lowest – 20,283
    average – 18,869
    month beginning to end – up 1,138 places

    scientology:
    highest – 52,678
    lowest – 74,315
    average – 60,532
    month beginning to end – up 7,781 places

    Difference:
    biggest – 54,032
    smallest – 34,101
    average 41,663
    month beginning to end – 6,643 less

    • MaxSpaceman

      Very nice, Johnny TFA! Thank you.

      • joan nieman

        I agree Max.Thank you for what you do Johnny Tank.

    • i-Betty

      I love these reports 🙂 Which story did Tony cover on the day he hit 17,019?

    • PeteMiless

      In the recent MV document they claim to have 2 new visitors every second. How would this relate to the above data? When I calculated it and asked a true believer she said I would have to consider all the 30 or so SCI web sites.

  • MaxSpaceman

    “He was also scripting matinee blockbusters for Hollywood.”

    Yeesh! not 1 credit in Hollywood history of the slightest significance turns into Ron authoring movie blockbusters.
    [www. lronhubbard. org/ home.html – a Co$ Int’l. Website]

    • Missionary Kid

      A trip to Asia to visit his parents becomes an exploration into Eastern Thought. It’s all bullshit.

    • cdub

      The party line was that he wrote the blockbusters under pseudonyms and that’s why we don’t see his name up in lights. Right.

    • antibity

      Clearly, the LRH Hollywood filmography is sheep dipped, as was his war record and his Metteyaliciousness. What’s needed here is lieographer Danny Sherman to set the record straight and tell the bigger story. C’mon Danny, stop being a Mettaya denier.

    • Peter

      Did Hubbard make such a claim? I wasn’t aware of it, if so. I know the various PR people, though, have had a field day inventing more and more back story. Stupid, in current times, since such things are so easily checkable.

  • aquaclara

    Jon, this is telling. I wondered why people would keep writing testimonials that really attributed a win to pretty weak accomplishments. Even the language is filled with generalities and vague terms. That the euphoria lasts all of three days, by which point someone is onto another NOW NOW NOW task , or class or big event, or blaming oneself-this pattern is intentionally manipulated to keep the con alive.

    What’s last to go? The BS about “the tech” and the infallibility of Ron. This is also the first thing everyone started with, and it’s so deeply stuck inside one’s head that it does not go away easily. I always hope that the true believer people WILL wake up.

    You even find a place for that waking-up moment of embarrassment-but I hope, too, that every ex learns how to put this part behind them. All of us have been fooled by false promises at some point. No sense in holding on to more pain from the whole experience, really.

    Thanks. What an epic article you’ve written.

    • cdub

      I like all Jon’s stuff.
      Without all those Scientology crutches I’ve been forced to reevaluate and reconsider a whole new world view. But then at the same time I’m set on a course of simplifying my life as I transition into retirement. Come to think of it, this ex-Scientology thing is one of the things I’m trying to swear off so I hope the law, the media, and the government(s) smash it pretty durn soon ‘cuz I gotta see this to an end, and quick.

      • aquaclara

        The good news is that the traffic lights WILL continue to turn green for you, the flowers WILL bloom in the spring, Tony WILL post by 7 amEST every morning, and the lawsuits WILL cost the cult much pain and suffering.

        Oh, and you never need to do another testimonial about the WINS. We just get to enjoy them!
        Happy retirement-to-be!

        • cdub

          Thanks. Life is good.

        • Jon Atack

          Praise be to Tony! He is as constant as the northern star.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        Thanks for the info C-Dub. I believe that this thing we do here (and on editorial pages, and in front of the orgs) has to be kept in perspective.

        I have asked critics why they do this. I have heard, public service, hobby, pay back, fascination.

        I think I, myself, am doing this for a wide variety of complicated and sometimes very personal reasons. But the strongest is my sense of justice. I believe that the good guys should win, but that the winning takes effort and sometimes sacrifice. Maybe I gained this hopelessly naive idea from my parents. Maybe it is from watching World War Two movies, or listening to Phil Ochs records. I still can’t believe that the cops didn’t charge the Scientologists with fraud and lock up their leaders until 1991 (in Toronto) and that since that time the cops have let them continue in their destructive ways. I understand that it is difficult and expensive to prosecute and that resources can sometimes be better spent on other things.

        I don’t know if we will ever get the public awareness so high that Miscavige and those around him will be doing a lot of hard time. I hope so. Most likely people like you and I, in our own small ways, will help to stop the cash flow. As it diminishes operations will be more difficult and there will be more internecine tensions. People are leaving on mass and with any luck that tendency will continue to accelerate. If Miscavige lives long enough he may follow the Werner Erhard escape route to parts unknown and finish his life in luxury.

        Right now we can’t stop every naive 18 year old who sees no future for himself in this world from getting stuck with Scientology. But we have already stopped most of them by spreading the word on the internet, enabling lawyers, giving talk show hosts fuel, giving journalists fuel, and being so ubiquitous that they can’t pull fair game the way they once did.

        Please put on Kate Smith singing, “America, America” at this point.

        But out job will never be done. We will wipe out Scientology and even get some payback for some of the people who spent hundreds of thousands on their fraudulent schemes. But there will always be another skunk with another scheme. We are the ones paying the “always vigilant” price for democracy. In recent years the battle has turned in our favour.

        • cdub

          Yes. Thanks.
          The end of Werner Erhard’s seminar training (see Wikipedia) is a warning to us about what will happen in the end. This is an instance of ‘be careful what you wish for’. Vaguely, it changed it’s name to Landmark and eventually died. But then many, many brand new, independent organizations came into existence and they’re all the harder to identify because they’re so small.
          In the big picture tho I don’t worry about that likelihood. I don’t have any illusions but I feel like we’re on the right track here as to our goal.

          • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

            Thanks for the note C-Dub. I think the critical community is doing very well. Years ago, when it looked as though European nations were going to be treating Scientology the way America was because they had a reciprocal agreement with the US on human rights, I thought that I was the only one that knew how harmful Scientology was and that no one would ever listen to me. Things have been turned on their head since then.

            Best of luck to you.

      • Jon Atack

        Thank-you, you are very kind. The law the media and the government as you ironically suggest are not going to do a damn thing, and Anonymous have forgotten their sworn aims. But it is about waking people up to the effects. Once you realize that you are behaving like an idiot, it’s hard to keep it up (unless you are a professional clown, of course, naming no names, but those sailor suits do look a tad silly – especially the campaign ribbons, which violate the law that says only heroes can wear such things. Heroes and clowns).

    • Jon Atack

      Thanks. Beyond the embarrassment come the riches of understanding. After over 40 years of stuffing my head with religion and mysticism, all I’ve learned – and I mean absolutely everything – can be summed up in two words: compassion and humility. Both are opposed by every thread of scn. Scn eradicates humility so badly that cult experts regard exmems as the most arrogant of all groups. Without humility (and the embarrassment is exactly that as it dawns) we have no ability to assess our own behaviour, to accept our shortcomings and try to make them longer…

  • Peter

    There goes the “hypnotism” item again. Sorry, Jon, but I completely disagree.

    Just because Hubbard spoke of hypnotism and studied it, it does not then follow that he successfully hypnotized thousands of followers. (And if his history of “study” is anything to go by, he didn’t have the attention units available to learn much of anything very well!) Unless things have dramatically altered in more recent times, auditing was NOT hypnotism nor were the commands given hypnotically. Were the auditors supposedly trained hypnotically to then deliver hypnotic commands? Ludicrous. And since virtually no auditing is any longer taking place, what “hypnotic” commands are keeping the current group in place? And how is it possible for them to be walking out of the orgs, never to return?

    I studied and practiced hypnotism long ago and stopped it because I realized that I could easily sway others with hypnotic techniques. Worse, I saw that I simply did not understand the mind or its workings well enough to continue playing around with it. And I would have recognized it instantly had it occurred. And even back in the 60s and 70s, most of my compatriots, though they didn’t express it publicly, shuddered internally at the applause for that weird photo of Hubbard hanging on the training room wall. NONE of us considered him a “God” in any sense of the word. The early-ins were, as a group, far older and better educated than the current crop.

    If everyone had been hypnotized, there would have been no disagreements with anything, no one on staff would ever have had “bad” thoughts and there would never have been the need to declare thousands of loyal staff, the ones who actually thought for themselves, were helping others and getting positive results.. The current Bunkeroo never-ins simply don’t understand the kind of wins that were available back then and how many lives were changed for the better.

    I don’t know how long you were in, Jon, nor what services you had…or where, but you surely never experienced the kind of loving attention I saw and felt from the auditors, case supervisors and staff who daily rooted for the pcs and students, and did so for the many years I was in.

    And just to keep the record straight, I am no apologist for Hubbard and a lot of the crap he pulled. He was a seriously ill person and he lied like hell. But he also managed to put together some great tools for living, IF one took responsibility for using them and didn’t keep giving him the credit for everything.

    • aquaclara

      The “tech” created far too much damage for far too many kids, adults, families and even businesses for anyone to call it a great tool for living.

      You show the proof of the circular argument when you add in the caveat, if one takes responsibility for using them-how- as Ron said?

      Bullshit.

      • Peter

        Well, if you *don’t* take responsibility for your own life, your own actions, your own thoughts, who will? I think you are misusing responsibility as “blame”. I’ve never bought that particular package. Please note, too, that I never said nor implied that it was a “great tool for living”. Those are *your* words, not mine. I said there were some great tools for living to be taken from it. Just as there are some great tools for living to be culled from religion. Does that imply somehow that I approve of sexually abberant priests? Hardly.

        • Espiando

          What part of “But he also managed to put together some great tools for living” didn’t you write in your original post, Scilon? Lying Liar That Lies, just like your Source. He’d be so proud of you.

        • You’re still swallowing the LRH swill, bottle and cork included.

    • Espiando

      His “great tools for living” include a statement that his followers should exterminate people for their sexual preference and a sauna treatment with vitamins that can easily cause permanent liver damage. Throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can easily make (or find) another baby.

      • Peter

        Well, you can throw out all of psychiatry, too, if all you do is concentrate on the over use of drugs to solve problems. And categorizing every child’s temper tantrums as ADD.

        • Espiando

          Are you invalidating the wins I’ve had on psych drugs? What a nice little Scilon you are.

          • flexible

            Espiando..I don’t think he is invalidating the successes you have had with psych drugs…why I’ll betcha he doesn’t even know you use/used ’em. I think the point he is trying to make is that a lot of people got some good things out of some auditing.. that’s all. And, being that I sort of know Peter.. no.. he is not a Scilon…lolol..FAR from it. He’s as far away from it as you are. Which is pretty far. :0)

            There were some wonderful folks back in the day, who probably created a lot of the “tech” that “seemed” to be more helpful than most of it. So I guess just like you might feel up in arms about someone slamming the drugs that have helped you…there are those out there, not in the church anymore, who also got benefit from their drug at the time.. auditing. ..and don’t wish for that to be claimed as harmful or hogwash. Only the individual knows if they feel better and have a better grasp on things. IMHO

            Most, if not all of the world’s largest religions are run by/filled with scam artists, liars. abusers etc..doesn’t change the fact that when Miss Mary goes to confessional.. she comes out feeling better (one hopes). If none of it is real (from other people’s point of view…how does that matter if Mary feels her life has improved?)

            But of course we all know that SCN has taken this desire for self improvement in a whole different direction, and that it began at the beginning with LRH’s intention to make a wad of $$ and have a lot of power. I believe, that the stuff that I felt was helpful, had nothing to do with Hubbard. And was tendered by fabulous folks such as Hana, David Mayo, Gwen North, who truly had good hearts and wanted to help.
            When the crap, which existed all along, began to become visible, and the deceit obvious.. we were gone. What was obvious to my family 10 years prior, took that long to get through to me. But thank goodness it did. For others it has taken 25+ years. And for others.. …they’ll probably go down with the ship knowing in their heart of hearts that the evil psychs and the SPs on the fringes of the internet brought down mankind’s only salvation. lol Thanks for all you do.

            • Once_Born

              It seems to me that people who have been involved in Scientology either, at some point, reject it wholesale or ‘go indie’. Typically, independents cling to their early ‘wins’ as proof that the ‘tech’ works. The fact that it stopped working is presented by them as the fault of the corrupt new management.

              I suspect that these are people who still want their promised super powers and imagined status – so much so that they are prepared to rationalise away all the evidence away.

              What is really happening is that the early stages of Scientology (especially the repetition) induces altered states of consciousness which can lead to some memorable subjective experiences.

              However, people soon become habituated. Soon, those early experiences cannot be repeated. Some people will become disillusioned. Others will redouble their efforts… hoping that, if only they take the next level, those powerful ‘wins’ will return.

              Of course, as time passes the significance of those early experiences grows in memory. You are now putting a lot of time and effort into repeating them, so you will tend to remember them as more powerful and significant than they actually were in order to justify all that effort to yourself.

              Also, as you go deeper into Scientology, social-psychosocial pressure becomes progressively greater and, eventually, leads to outright cohesion (e.g. the threat of ‘disconnection’ and fear of ‘fair game’)

              I disagree with Jon Atack on the subject of hypnotism. It does not really work, and it is not required in this situation.

              My take is that sensory deprivation leads (for some people) to a brief blissful state of mind which they ascribe to Scientology. When they become habituated, and the ‘wins’ no longer come, they continue to chase a psychological mirage.

              This is not on its own, enough to keep them in – but it does not have to be. Scientology has many other means of manipulation, which have all been brought into play by the time the member is beginning to have doubts.

              It’s like a lobster pot there is some nice bait in the bottom, and it’s easy to enter – but the deeper the go in, the harder it is to back out again.

        • kemist

          If you think that is how children are diagnosed with ADD, you’ve never met a child with ADD or a psychiatrist.

          I’m so fucking tired of that goddamn myth, and of all the hysterics about the use of psychostimulants, which have been around for over 50 years with great results according to all the actual studies that have been made on them.

        • Kim O’Brien

          just stop ..you held on to cans and yelled at an ashtray for christ sake …i don’t think you can give advice

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          Now here is a funny thing… a mother can decide that a certain medication isn’t working for her child and stop it or change it. And somehow, she doesn’t lose her family, the house, her business, her retirement, and the kid’s college education. She isn’t stalked, is free to blog with other mothers who are in a similar situation, her neighbors aren’t contacted with malicious lies about her, and she doesn’t have a dildo mailed to her place of employment. Imagine that!

          • kemist

            But… But… Drugs !!! To children !!!! Won’t somebody think of the children !!!!

            *clutches pearls and feints*

            There’s a kind of hysteria around drugs, especially when given to children. Children should not be having any sickness, disorder or important pain, and people wish this so hard it often takes a lot more time to recognize that yes, some do have health problems that warrant the use of more than just Tempra.

            I suffered migraines during my entire childhood with at best aspirin (which I have never tolerated) or tylenol (which does exactly nothing against migraine) because of the misconception that children could not have migraines, just “little headaches”. “Little headaches” that left me incapacitated and vomitting from pain for two to three days. I was even blamed for having them FFS.

            One of the greatest things about becoming an adult was that I could finally seek out actual treatment for these horrible things.

            • NOLAGirl

              Speaking as someone raising a child with high-spectrum autism, I’d just like to add that since my child was diagnosed he’s had an excellent pediatrician, early on had a child psychologist but it’s no longer needed, has special education teachers (all well trained) every year at school if he needs them and NEVER ONCE in the 10 yrs since he was diagnosed has:

              -Any of his doctors suggested medication to me (unless he was ill of course)
              -Hinted at using a certain medication.
              -Offered me a “cure”
              -Ever told me that his possibilities were anything but limitless.

              He’s 12 and he’s a bright, smart (was doing high school math in 6th grade), active, healthy kid. So all this crap these Scions spout about “ohhhh the kids”….pure bullshit. Many doctors don’t even suggest medication unless it is absolutely necessary otherwise, by now, I’d have had someone pushing something in my face for my son.

              Sorry so long-winded…Basically, you’re right. They are full of shit.

            • NOLAGirl

              I’d also like to ad that in correspondence with some of those idiots through their CraigsList ads, I’ve had one tell me that “YES they do understand that some people need medication, but that they send those people to a doctor and only help the ones that aren’t in need of it, but in need of counseling” or some such nonsense…I’m paraphrasing what was said, I don’t have the email in front of me.

              Lying Liars Who Lie For $$

            • Totally Tone 1.1

              NOLAGirl, I believe your experience is common. Most teams dealing with developmental disabilities/spectrum disorders don’t go the psychotropic route immediately. It’s been my experience that any physiological and environmental concerns are considered and addressed before medications are even discussed.

            • NOLAGirl

              And thank heavens for that. But according to Scientologists and Loon Flubbard all my son would need is some auditing. I shudder to think about kids born to Co$ parents with autism. Ugh, let me not even get started. I feel the profanity coming.

        • RBE

          You have just confirmed my suspicions. You are indeed a clueless gobshite.

        • Missionary Kid

          “And categorizing every child’s temper tantrums as ADD.” is one of those $ciontologist bullshit generalizations that paint every case with the same brush.

          I know of two children who are the result of fetal alcohol syndrome. When they’re not on their meds, they are incapable of functioning in a civilized manner. I can tell when they have gone too long without a pill because their behavior often becomes violent.

          Psychiatrists aren’t usually the ones over prescribing meds: it’s the regular MDs, you’d know if you pulled your head out of the propaganda you’re seeped in.

    • Eileen

      As you said above, you don’t understand the mind and it’s workings…

    • Eivol Ekdal

      Touch the Wall! Thank You.

    • George Layton

      Everyone knows there is only one shade of hypnotism.

    • D.Y.G.

      *facepalm*

      • Espiando

        He can’t do a facepalm because his hands are too busy whacking off to his “brilliance”.

        • D.Y.G.

          No, that was definitely me.

    • John P.

      But he also managed to put together some great tools for living, IF one took responsibility for using them

      Peter, one of the problems with Hubbard’s “tools for living” is that while they work more than zero percent of the time, they almost certainly do not work as well as therapy techniques for which real studies of effectiveness have been done. I would be willing to bet that Scientology “tech” actually works less well than random interactions with a therapist (such as could be generated by a descendant of the original ELIZA experiment, documented here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA ).

      Belief in the effectiveness of Scientology tech is a logical fallacy, saying “because I know somebody whose life changed after getting auditing, that proves the ‘tech’ works.” As research scientists often say, “the plural of anecdotes is not data.” I have talked to numerous people whose lives really were changed by Scientology auditing, but I am enough of a scientist to realize that this absolutely doesn’t prove that auditing works in the general case.

      The fact that virtually everyone who has done a couple hours of auditing per month for 30 years all claim that auditing works is also irrelevant. That’s because the sample is self-selected: the only people who have done auditing for 30 years are those who it works on. Everybody else stopped years previously. And even those people typically have life-changing wins at increasingly rare intervals as time goes on. If you wanted to get an idea of the effectiveness of auditing in the general population, you’d have to look at the effectiveness of auditing across all the people who had ever tried it. Probably 95% of people who have an introductory auditing session find so little value in it that they never come back for a second session.

      There are other reasons that people in Scientology think auditing works. To the extent that “success stories” written after the end of each auditing session are coercive (early on, they weren’t; recently, they are highly coerced), they serve to motivate people to find a win, however small, thus reinforcing the (false) narrative that auditing works. There’s also a significant element of sunk cost bias with the amount of money the cult charges for auditing — if you pay $12,000 for an “intensive” of auditing, you’ve got an incentive to tell your friends that your latest session was “the shizzle” as far as generating wins. So there are plenty of externalities at play that color the perception of the value of auditing among those who have done it.

      • Missionary Kid

        I couldn’t have said it better.

        • NOLAGirl

          I’d pay more to hear John P. speak than I ever would to hear Hubtard.

          • RBE

            Indeed, Global Capitalism HQ needs to put on some meetings to soak up some of John’s wisdom. Maybe the “John. P Doctorate Course” would be a good name for one of them?

            • NOLAGirl

              I like this idea. 🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            Wouldn’t we all.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Ah “The Royal Nonesuch” (as you stated before)

      • Illinoisian

        Ah! I love the smell of common sense in the morning.

      • lucille austero

        Excellent post!

      • DrGreatCham

        Excellent points, the placebo effect in combination with a putatively sympathetic listener (AT FIRST!) would explain most of the early “wins.”

      • Phil McKraken

        [pedant]
        “the plural of anecdotes is…” need I say more?

        [/pedant]

      • Peter

        Excellent points, John. I don’t have any disagreements with any of them. (I recall paying about $1200 for a 12.5 hour intensive back then. Cheap for the gains I made.) I’ve never implied that auditing *always* works. It did, however, for me and many I knew…BACK THEN. But I’ve never been interested in proving my interior growth to anyone else, nor how I accomplished it. My bug has always been that there was a time when one hell of a lot of people were winning, moving on, feeling great, feeling their lives uplifted. I didn’t and don’t give a damn what others believe. It was a tool I found useful, effective and it paid off for me in a lot of ways. I don’t live my life by “science”, whatever that means, and measuring every bit of progress I’ve made. I’m quite fascinated by the quantum world and its effects. I’m also aware that many others do not share my views and make all sorts of assumptions about them. Their choice.

        • Robert Eckert

          “I recall paying about $1200 for a 12.5 hour intensive back then. Cheap for the gains I made.” I don’t know. For $1200 you could get a clunker used car that would hold together for years of trips to the beach.

          • Phil McKraken

            Reactive mind leads to skin cancer. Use Xenu-block, APF* 60,000,000,000,000,000.

            * auditing protection factor

    • The early TRs induce a trance – if you studied hypnotism and didn’t get that, you missed something. They conditioned you to enter into a light hypnotic state in auditing. I knew a hypnotist who WROTE PROCESSES for Hubbard for money (a famous hypnotist). And another hypnotist who wrote a book with the father of American hypnotism swears that much of $cientology is hypnotism. Study some more.

  • Scientia

    Hub was far bigger than Christ. The sandalled hippie has returned only once whereas Hubbard has been coming back for trillions of years. From Arp Cola and Buddha incarnate, to the Duke of Medici, Robespierre and Cecil Rhodes. He’s been around forever. Per OT 8.0, we should be keeping an eye out for his next trip back where he saves us all from a Marcabian invasion. What a guy!

    • cdub

      Yes it’s the Space Org to the rescue.

      • Ood the Dude

        I so read that as Space Orgy and was ready to sign my billion year contract then noticed it was org 🙁

    • Tony Ortega

      Good to see you back, Scientia.

    • Hey, let’s see… Elwrong said Jesus was a gay pedophile. The Duke I don’t know about, but the Hub quit bragging about being Cecil Rhodes in a past life when someone pointed out that Rhodes had been a flaming homosexual. So I’m thinking what Hubtoad really was, was GAY AS A WEST HOLLYWOOD PARADE!

      • DodoTheLaser

        It’s like saying – Hubbard was 1.1 on the emotional tone scale (that he authored).

        • Oh, he wished. In reality, -0.01 on the scale – failure – that’s Hubbard. Better than Miscavmidget, though, who’d be at -2.2 – punishing bodies.

    • Gus_Cox

      Oh, but according to whateverthefuckthatbookwas, Ron was Metteya! Yes! The Red-Haired Returnee!

      Puke. What an asshole.

  • Chee Chalker

    I saw an interview with Mosey where she spoke of the time that Marty, after a long break, audited himself (not sure if that is the proper terminology). She said his mood was much improved and said to him ” whatever it is you did, do more of that” (because he was in better spirits afterwards). Makes me wonder if this is what he was experiencing – this sense of euphoria, after being on the cans.

    • cdub

      yeah you got it

    • flyonthewall

      like methadone to a heroin addict

    • Sid_Snakey

      I don’t think he audited himself, he had started auditing other people. I think that if you are the sort of person who gets a kick out of helping other people, then auditing also gives you a good feeling.

      • Chee Chalker

        I think this was before he was auditing others. Maybe he was doing some solo work?

        • EnthralledObserver

          I think it’s important to note that the experience for the PC and the auditor in the room are very similar (going through that repetition) – so if one ends in a type of hypnotism, then why not the other?

          • Chee Chalker

            Interesting point. The whole thing is actually kind of fascinating…..the mind and the tricks thereof…..

    • Peter

      You’d have to ask that of Marty directly. It isn’t always “euphoria”. That generally happens when the shift is life changing and you simply see some part of your way in a better light or understanding. I’m quite sure it happens in psychology counseling, as well.

      • Chee Chalker

        Oh yes, no doubt it happens in counseling. Now I am wondering if you can hypnotize yourself….

    • See I am right, Survival is the biggest drive and motivator. Even you fucking Atheists sissy pants nilly willy know that.

      -Ron, your Opportunistic Atheïst

  • NOLAGirl

    Doesn’t really matter what he wanted to be considered. All he was, was a self-absorbed, criminal douche-bag who spewed endless bile and left a trail of human wreckage behind.

    • Espiando

      We self-absorbed criminal douchebags take offense at being compared to Hubtard.

      • NOLAGirl

        Hehehehe!

        My apologies Espi.

        • joan nieman

          You are a thousand times better than Hubbard could ever be Espi.

    • CobGatYour$$

      Not fair to insult douchebags!:)

  • Kim O’Brien

    I would like to be considered a goddess. Thank you . Now …could someone please peel me a grape ? 😉

  • “Sometimes, as with other forms of hypnosis — but only rarely — for a lifetime.”

    I got that Mike Rinder guy fucked up real good in the head, like that Marty dude and girls like Karen deLA and the other young girlies.

    -Ron, Collecter of Souls

    http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2009/11/SCI_JanisGrady1_1102_91786a_8col.jpg

    • You all are just jealous of I, Ron the great, who got young girls prancing around in tight hot pants in front of him

      -Ron, Puppet Master

      • See those stupid motherfuckers still cant defy me L Ron Hubbard, they keep there big japs shut when it comes to there savior, me L Ron.

        Goes to my points score on Psychology.

        Ron, Dr in Psychology

  • Ms. B. Haven

    I recently came across a piece on NPR’s website (http://www.npr.org/2014/07/27/334050090/send-yourself-flying-3-books-for-an-out-of-body-experience) that grabbed my attention with some headlines containing the phrase Out of Body Experience. The article itself was just a series of book reviews and pretty boring. What I
    found fascinating about this was the single comment in the comments section. This fits right in with with Jon’s comments today and is truly Bunker worthy. It is one possible explanation of the workability of the “tech”. It definitely got me thinking. I have a lot to say about this, but no time to write. The slave pits are calling. Here’s the comment:

    “Self deception is a survival mechanism, if we can’t deal with the world as it is we deal with it another way. All things that are possible under hypnosis, are possible under self hypnosis. If you believe that you exist outside of your body, you will be able imagine what you might look like to an outside observer. You may benefit from imagining that the world thinks you are important, and you may even benefit the world by behaving as if you have transcended the boundries of ego. Go ahead, believe what you will.”

    • joan nieman

      So true Ms. B and it fits perfectly for today’s blog.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      I go to a psychologist every week and at least twice a month I have him put me under hypnosis. After being a closet pack a day smoker, I walked out and threw my pack in the trash. Another time I was having money issues and while I was under he suggested I made more money than I realized. After I left that day I stopped by an antique dealer on the way to my car and bought an 19th century table I didn’t need. Powerful stuff but it really helps with stress.
      In high school we had one of those show hypnotist and he took me on a journey in cool water. Out of 10 of us I was the only one who’s body temp dropped drastically. He took me out in the hall put me back under and warmed me back up. You could tell he was worried.

      • Jon Atack

        I’ll take your money without hypnotising you…

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Can it really be you? I actually enjoy it and is done at my request. I had some major loss issues in my life and it has been extremely helpful.Lost my girlfriend of 10 years from leukimia and then three months later my best friend and business partner died after a long battle with,AIDS. I became a workaholic and never dealt with it and started self-medicating. As I mentioned I enjoy the Hypnosis and he only does it because I request it. Cheers.

    • Jon Atack

      I guess that the Buddhist message that we are all asleep and need to wake up suggests (as Hub did in DMSMH) that we are already hypnotised and see the world automatically according to our preconceptions. And that those preconceptions were generally instilled in us by others, without our really checking them out. The ‘just world’ hypothesis says that we have to view the world as benevolent and harm to others as justified, because it would be too upsetting to accept that the world has no concern (how could a world have a concern?) and that the rush of reality is relatively random (gosh, I’m alliterative today). We are innocent victims of circumstance and coincidence, and the crazy Lords of Karma don’t actually record and integrate the actions of every ant, so that we will all get our vipaka…

  • Snake Plissken

    It’s too bad Hubbard was cremated instead of buried, I would have liked to have pissed on his grave.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Have you tried pissing in the wind? It’s just as effective…!

    • Sir_Real

      If he had had a proper grave or tomb I’d make the trip to go desecrate it.

  • BosonStark

    Darbbuh saw ton a dog.

  • RBE

    Ron, forgive me for my sins but I posted this as a reply earlier but I thought it might get lost in all the troll-talk and wanted peoples opinion on it:

    The whole the universe is in our heads and/or Scientology version that you can create your own universe is a bastardised version of Phenomenalism that can be traced back to George Berkeley, David Hume and others ( http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_phenomenalism.html ). If it were true surely all these OTVIII’s that the Freewinds is pumping out should be able to imagine money and have it pop into existence, thus making pointless the need for regging.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    God? What happened to Satan or The Beast?

    “Ultimately, Nibs said that his father was a Magus – a magician – who had opened to the door to Hell. I’m somewhat reserved in my supernaturalist beliefs, these days, but I think it is true that Hubbard believed himself the successor to Crowley as The Beast 666, who would bring the world under the dominion of the Scarlet Woman, the Antichrist.” [Jon Atack in comments]

    http://tonyortega.org/2014/05/10/jamie-dewolf-ive-found-the-last-memoir-of-the-son-of-scientologys-founder/comment-page-1/

    When Jamie DeWolf read from Nibs manuscript he recently discovered, the pure, undiluted hate that permeated the intent behind each word was palpable. I think every person in the room stopped breathing during it’s recitation. It explained to me why Hubbard never really lived large like Miscavige. Even the money hoarding wasn’t his first and foremost motivation.

    It was a thirst for power, the ruthless kind that only comes from a mind neither tempered nor impeded by anything resembling a conscience. The stone cold callousness, the craving that fueled this unrelenting path of destruction was never satisfied no matter how his ranks of gullible slaves swelled, no matter what sacrifices they laid upon his table.

    My take is simple. On Fridays at 9:00 am he was god. On Wednesdays at 2:00 pm he was satan. On Sundays as 11:00 pm he was dope. On Mondays at 12:00 noon he was benevolent guru. On MOndays at 3:00 am he was magician. But on every single Thursday at 2:00 pm he was always and still remains: The Beast.

    http://i.imgur.com/259qElS.jpg?1

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      “My take is simple. On Fridays at 9:00 am he was god. On Wednesdays at
      2:00 pm he was satan. On Sundays as 11:00 pm he was dope. On Mondays
      at 12:00 noon he was benevolent guru. But on every single Thursday at
      2:00 pm he was always and still remains: The Beast.”

      <— worth repeating!

    • DrGreatCham

      Yep, he was addicted to the worst and deadliest drug of all, power over other human beings…

    • Mark Foster

      cha-ching!

    • i-Betty

      Oh man, your comments are so good! The last paragraph is incredible.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        you’re sweet (okay and also tough).

        If anyone for some whack reason wants to see this Beast, just whisper these three little words in any member’s ear, even those who have been out for 30 or 40 years. Then step back and look into their eyes and you will see IT. I promise it will scare the crap out of you. I wish I was joking. I’m not.

        thursdays at two

        • BirdsFlying

          Nearly laughed myself silly. But I totally agree. What a Horror!

        • Staci

          I’ve never been in and am a supporter of the Bunker. Can you explain the significance of thursdays at two? Thank you!

          • BirdsFlying

            Thursdays at two is when statistics are collected. It tends to be a total nightmare every week. I could never believe it. Every week it was as though it had never been done before. It was like the Keystone Cops meet a bunch of elephants chasing clown cars, only evil.

            At the org, if the statistics are not in right on time and you are still working on them, calls fly in from uplines every 5 minutes about why they are not in yet. The screaming generally eats up about two to three minutes of the 5 minutes til the next call. Heaven cannot help you if you report false stats.

            I hated being on the receiving end of a reg cycle an a Thursday before two. The pressure was amazing.

    • HAHA, try to catch me or even try to destroy my Creation the Church of Scientology.

      All you have is rightious songs, but you can never kill my Spirit body that is instilled in the Church of Scientology. Not even Little Dave can divert too much from what I laid down.

      Silly songs:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USpuUodcOt0

    • Narapoid

      Thidney (cause I don’t want to call you Hole anymore), you’ve inspired me. When I get it all together, I will share. Thanks for all you have done and go through to fight the beast.

    • valshifter

      wow I feel you, I love this part “But on every single Thursday at 2:00 pm he was always and still remains: The Beast” it has a punch to it.

    • Elwrong was prescient. He saw the future and knew he couldn’t be The Beast because that was reserved for Oprah Winfrey, and who’d want to go up against her?

  • Gerard Plourde

    Marty’s and Jon’s observations confirm Hubbard’s megalomania, his self-professed desire to make all people his slaves. It’s also the enticement that Scientology offers its followers – control of Matter, Energy, Space and Time. This focus, which permeates Scientology, stands in marked contrast to the goal of the majority of religious traditions – Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Taoism and Islam all teach that the individual will is an obstacle to reality and enlightenment.

  • Ineedcaffeinenow

    “But he did explain that only the very elite make rules for the lesser beings — the “players” to impose on the “pieces”). The Tech exists to create adulation in the god-making process that Hubbard was set upon.”

    Ugh. He is Ron, he is LRH, he is Source, you owe him everything because he gave you your eternity. And by setting up his followers to feel superior to the lesser beings who have not yet seen “his” light, he reinforces the deification of himself.

  • cdub

    Wasn’t Satan on the same level as the Christian “God”? Satan was some sort of anti-God or Bizarro-God, wasn’t he? (If I remember my Christianity right.)

    • L. C. Spencer

      Nah, he was the chief of the Angels. He rebelled against God, wanting power for himself, so he was thrown out of heaven. His counterpart was the Archangel Michael.

      • cdub

        Thanks for clearing that up. I was wrong. I forgot that part. With all this talk of God and Satan, I was starting to develop some kind of posting, but now I fold!

        • L. C. Spencer

          I think even a lot of active Christians have forgotten that part 🙂 Incidentally, if you’ve ever read J.R.R. Tolkien, you’ll have seen that in the Silmarillion (the massive backstory to Lord of the Rings) he develops a creation story that’s basically identical to this, with a benevolent but remote Creator, powerful angelic beings called Valar (which mortals mistake for gods) to take care of the world, and one high-level Vala who goes rogue and tries to take over the world, recruiting some lesser angels to rebel with him. Sauron, the guy who made the rings of power, is the chief of these. So he pretty much recycled Genesis in some ways. (He was a devout Catholic.)

          You could still develop a post about how LRH actually claimed he was the Anti-Christ! That’s something that doesn’t make it into mainstream news accounts nearly enough IMO.

          • Techie

            Tolkien was a Catholic and a lot of his cosmogony parallels Catholic thought.

            • ze moo

              He and the other ‘inklings’ had very similar experience in WW1, it shows in their writings. C. S. Lewis had a similar cosmology.

            • Tolkein and Lewis were pals. Tolkein got Lewis into Christianity.

            • L. C. Spencer

              Yup, he made no bones about considering it his primary source even as he constructed the mythology out of elements from other cultural sources. Dude was a very smart guy, synthesizing all of it into a cohesive new universe as well as he did.

    • Elendira

      It depends on where in the Bible you are reading, and when you are living. In Genesis and the Talmud, Satan is an evil spirit, not the Lord of all Evil. Later on in the Book of Job, they are more Co-Equal and more friendly, as they make a bet that is the central theme of the eponymous book. Only in the New Testament, does Satan become the focus of Evil and the Lord of Lies, Flies, etc, such as the tempting of Jesus in the Gospels and the Anti-Christ/MotherofWhores/Satan Anti-Trinity in Revelations.
      Of course, this is also affected by what the Jews/Christian were going though at those times. For instance, the Jews were exiled to Persia and came in contact with a religion that a Creator/Destroyer co-equals and thus God and Satan became rivals in the book of Job and Christians at the time were being persecuted by both the Jewish and Roman Governments so you get the imagery you do in the Revelations of St. John.

  • Zer0

    “The Tech exists to create adulation in the god-making process that
    Hubbard was set upon. The perfect narcissistic process. It does not work
    to liberate, but to entrap.”

    Exactly. Hubbard believed that the entrapment processes he developed, based on his knowledge of hypnotism, would create mindless worshippers. He envisioned it as consuming their souls for his personal benefit.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    I’ve always been a sort of secretly held opinion as I went along with it all type of follower!

    Frankly Marty’s views are still way undereducated but attempt almost like new religion scholar out of touch off to the side of reality.

    LRH was all consumed with his own image, and another reason to have all his private dispatch traffic, all his traffic about how to present himself best to the world, and for sure, the weight of his whole writing and built up movement certainly played into Hubbard’s megalomania role as galactic planet to planet character like Old Doc Methuseluh the planet hopping Soidier of Light, or like Alan Walter privately considered Hubbard this sort of planet hopping spiritual Master, that’s as far as I’d go.

    You have to be much more sci fi willing to see how LRH actually saw himself. It was opportunistic self image molding, and Hubbard was just consistent with his labeling of things to bend the reality of things so his followers all knew what they were doing forwarding his grand tech application to save the universe from the dwindling spiral of spiritual degradation that Hubbard claims has been going on for incalculably long time in this universe.

    Hubbard’s problem was that his long term looks into the past (think of that Pat Broker showing the worksheet of the date on that infamous Hubbard “date locate” time long ago Hubbard was spotting supposedly when some far long past distant incident occured in one of Hubbard’s own sessions on himself).

    Hubbard’s outer shell to present to the world, is belied by what insider practitioners then themselves co-explore when they do their own distant track exploration on New Era Dianetics (if they are really serious past life exploring NED completions, but it’s false memory exploration so I shouldn’t praise it too highly), but the fact that Scientologists who do deep track exploration, don’t have this NRM glorified view of LRH that Marty is claiming.

    Marty’s almost writing for NRM people who are about 10 layers out from understanding the auditing/exorcism and case exploration experiences of long term serious Scientologists who DO have quite a lot more on their minds about LRH, who they see more as the tech provider, and the auditing/exorcism then provides the long term actual participants with their own real history (I think our past track exploration is false memory today).

    So Marty’s point is for the NRM outer watchers and place Hubbard in some NRM niche type of comment.

    The followers who are pushed into slave role to the Hubbard great thetan are not the long term freezoners who’d done a very large boat load of self exploration. They admire Hubbard for the tech, and accept the horrible reality of Hubbard’s flaws!

    So this NRM like piece by Marty, to me, he wrote for the NRM 10 layers out in their understanding watchers of this Hubbard show!

    My final views, I’m a follower of other smarter people, I think what Arthur C. Clarke said publicly, what Heinlein said in his poignant letters advising Ron to get back to writing pulp and science fiction, what Mary Sue’s take on LRH were, what people like LRH’s last couple of close friends, and admirers, John McMasters, Alan Walter’s “Master” type thoughts of LRH, William Burroughs respectful till he started to see the problems with Hubbard’s setup views, and Hugh Urban’s book is packed with about all the different angles of how to look at Hubbard, realistically, for me.

    • cdub

      So as it’s not real history, just what is whole track memory? I wrestle with this. Everything recounted by me prior to my birth, as faithfully recorded in my PC folders, is made up? Hallucination? Semi-dreaming? Actual, provable past life events? Somewhere in between? None of the above? I confess I’m personally unable to explain it now.

      • Satansthetan

        Induced imagination, fantasy, day dreams……call it what you will, it exists only in your own mind. Yes, you made it up, under pressure to produce for sure, but you made it up.

        • Peter

          Haven’t we all made everything up in our own independent universes?

          • lucille austero

            No, we haven’t. Surprise! There are these thingees that actual scientists call facts. They are facts, ergo, not made up.

          • Phil McKraken

            There’s a word for that notion: Solipsism.

            It’s a way of thinking that can lead you to agree with and repeat foolish expressions like “what’s true for you is true for you.” What you have done is given yourself permission to believe Hubbard instead of your own lying eyes. You think that you created a shitty reality for yourself, and engage in auditing to try to create a better one. It’s a fool’s errand. You can’t improve on the real thing. It’s not in your mind. Engage it. Get on with it.

      • Robert Eckert

        ” just what is whole track memory?” Induced false memory, no less fictional than when false memories about the present life are implanted..

        • Mooser

          “Whole track memory” 1 whole track? Not even stereo, or quad memory? Hell, I’ve got like 32 track memory in my studio.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Harriet Whitehead’s book on Scientology, “Renunciation and Reformulation” took a scholarly stab at what Hubbard’s past life exploration/exorcism is to the follower. Cheap on amazon still, and almost as bad as Roy Wallis’ book in difficulty to read through, due to the learning curve and mention of all sorts of other things in the process of evaluating Hubbard’s Scientology.

        Past life memories to me the good atheist view would be they are false memories, concocted from our plastic imaginative brains!

        • Once_Born

          “Renunciation and Reformulation” is a specialised anthropological text written in a style that uses sentences longer than modern paragraphs. Good observations and ideas wrapped up in the worst of academic writing.

          I have found that, in order to understand Scientology, you sometimes need to ‘zoom
          out’ and examine ideas which come from outside the critical community, and provide a wider perspective.

          In this spirit, you might find “Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults” by Janja Lalich interesting. http://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/bounded-choice/

          An ex-cult member, and academic sociologist she examines the history of two groups – the infamous “Heavens Gate” and “The Democratic Workers Party (a political cult, which she was once a member of).

          Although Scientology is not mentioned, it contains many insights into the cult mindset which fit Scientology perfectly.

      • It’s the idea that you’ve been around spiritually for jillions of years and there’s a memory of all of it, but you might not remember what it was like farting on Arslycus (where Hubbard was apparentlly a gay bricklayer at one point), until you get that expensive auditing, then you’ll get it. Special, ain’t it?

    • Chuck just come in for a little talk I have big plans for you

      -Ron

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        I’ve felt I’ve been sort of a J. Walter Madman reverse PR for you, and that you like that, so no worries…. did I get it right?

        Sort of if you are the anti-Christ, I’m your anti-Paul.

  • If Hubbard wants to be a god, he needs to find some pantheon that has an open slot for a god of conmen, head cysts and bad teeth.

    • BosonStark

      L. Ron, Patron Sinner of Rotten Teeth. Regarding the cyst, he was a head of his time — big head cyst in the sky. Bow down before its magnificence.

      • Dr_Orpheus

        Even better Ron the Good promises to regrow their teeth and make cysts disappear in return for sufficient donations and their ability to follow the correct procedures. He grants their wishes 100% of the time as long as the tech is properly followed.

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    Thank you, Jon, for your, as usual, profound and insightful comments. The Church of Scientology has become a fundamentalist religion. Like most fundamentalist religions, there is no theological debate allowed, no critical thinking, and punishment is the only response to questioning the “gospel.” If the Church honestly portrayed itself to the public and the courts, it could not argue that its internal arbitration procedure is fair to outsiders, nor could it claim that adherents of other religions are welcome in the church.

    • Richard Grant

      +1. Mr. Atack’s contributions here are indeed profound and insightful. They’re also intellectually challenging, especially during that pre-caffeinated hour when many of us pop into the Bunker each morning. Like a visit to the mind gym before breakfast.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    God? Maybe a clever conman,I’ll give him that.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxExUqdGa0Y

    • Funny diddy, sticks in your head after a while. Why don’t you come in for an auditing session.

      _Ron

      • Todd Tomorrow

        For free? Sure,I’ve got a billion years to kill. But I must worn you I loved LSD in college.

        • That is of no consequence, why don’t you start with a free personality test.

          -Ron

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    I mean to sci fi fans who’ve read enough, all of Hubbard’s inflated thinking of himself as some galactic planet hopping spiritual “Master” (Alan Walter considered him Master class), makes better sense.

    Again, outsiders, sci fi well read readers, understand Hubbard in a heart blink!

    To them, Hubbard obviously let his own imagination get the best of him, to the end, where Hubbard, per Lawrence WRight’s last pages, and per Marty’s Chapter 24 in Marty’s 3rd book, Hubbard is outt there flying arond another star, doing OT running program therapy on himself!

    to get ready for Hubbard’s next Science of Survival theta impacting into another world of MEST and humanoids needing help, Old Doc Methuseluh style!

    • Richard Grant

      Pardon me, Chuck, but I don’t recognize “NRM”? (I’m pretty sure I agree with what you’re saying here, if I can follow it 🙂

      • Science Doc

        I think it’s New Religious Movements.

        • Richard Grant

          Than you, Doc!

      • Robert Eckert

        New Religious Movement (a term used by scholars who want to maintain a facade of “neutrality”)

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        New Religious Movement, sorry.

        My favorite NRM book, is “Comprehending Cults” by Lorne Dawson, he pegged Scientology, the Moonies and Hare Krishnas as “established cults”.

        But, as the decades go on, these 3 biggest established cults are falling apart.

        So in 5-10 -20 years, some new appraisal of these former “big 3” will be done, and it’s likely already being done or been done, I’m not really totally on top of the decline of even the “NRM” academic field. I do subscript to Religion Digest and have google alert that sends me the latest cult like groups info.

        Jim Lewis has done a paper on the freezone, and that’s interesting to me.

        I’ve hoped the outside Scientoloigists got a little more attention since their stripped down Scientology is way more sensible, tiny, and whether they can attract their own new following of followers and not just pick off the disgruntled ex official Scientologists as followers, needs be laid out to see where freezone Scientology is going, or not.

        For sure no one really hopes for the growth of the freezone, but I sympathize with religion sociologists who simply wish to take note of “new religions” and their growth, or constant splintering into disintegration, or not, whatever. I’ll follow along with the facts whichever way they go, despite any hype and false stats of anyone’s hopeful postulate growth!

    • Tony Ortega

      Chuck, I wish I could make you understand that no one gives a crap about the religious studies and their new religious movement bullshit. You spend so much time worrying about what they think and it’s just not worth it.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Back in 2005 in the then atmosphere the critics had been marginalized or so my reading and general lack of self understanding was.

        So I reached out to them as some told me the NRM people did give their opinions to state (country) FBI and police. The NRM people did get asked for their as know isn’t expert opinions whether to fear another Waco or Jonestown type behavior out of Scientolgy.

        So part of why I thought Jeff Hawkins ought talk with M
        Melton was that
        Melton would relay that next time Mlton was asked.

        Too much other similar weeds why I’ve thought the New Religion crop of lesser academics should be helped. I’llsuffer that help to them.

        • I care about you Chuck why don’t you come back in ?

          -Ron

          • Mooser

            Wow, Ron, I’ve heard a lot about you, but I never thought I would see your wisdom and compassion for the suffering demonstrated right in front of my lying eyes!

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            Just the little atheism problem, can’t quite get the urge to support the false memory past lives and exorcism of imaginary body thetans, is all! Otherwise I’d be at your service!

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        True, in the fullest sense of the word!

        But because they bolster or rather did onetime bolster Scientology’s religiosity, especially the job that dead professor emeritus Bryan Wilson did for them, I have also felt those of us who had some inkling of the PR job that was done to get that academic support, ought to give the behind the scene things “we” (OSA staffer Jacqueline Kevanar in particular worked that project to get that Bryan Wilson supportive treatise); and I felt compelled to reach out to the academics that the Pittsburgh Post Gazette put in their article on me, and try to help wise those men up to the vast number of then, 2005, ex senior people like Jeff Hawkins, Amy Scobee and others, who were cooperating then with other media, and I thought the “NRM” (New Religious Movement) academics would likewise be receptive to the behind the scenes long term unchallengable good info from ex WDC members and ex Exec Strata members, long term vets!

        To al advanced watchers and members of the choir informed Scientology movement observers here, yes, all my efforts are not worth it.

        True enough. I did feel somewhat responsible for being so avidly pro Jacqueline Kevanar when she was out hoodwinking religion academics though, so I still feel that need to help detail things relating to them and their views today.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ Reminder +–+Reminder +–+ RED X ***
    Hello world
    Except for the West Coast during the night not much is happening

    Yesterday’s List starts here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-106#post-2474529

    This morning NEW additions here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-106#post-2474529

    The Regional List and previous daily lists
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    I have NO idea why this LA ad was caught in my net, could it be the new *dissem* radio station
    from co$?
    http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/vol/4596078658.html

    ty THDNE

    • VickiStubing

      The radio station ad might have been included because they are offering College Credit/INSTERNSHIPS. Just another ad for the Sea Org….

  • ze moo

    Lroon had such a desire to ‘smash his way into the history books’ that he tried many approaches (the shotgun strategy). After WW2, a lot of Americans had been exposed to Buddhism and it became a subject people outside of the religious scholar job title studied.

    Why did Lroon try to gain the mantle of Metteya? Because he thought he could get away with it. And he did, if only for the minions of his personal worship club. The Metteya is the embodiment of realized spiritual knowledge, he who brings world changing knowledge in his lifetime.

    There is another clam magazine cover (Advance?) that shows a red headed ‘Buddha’ type that is Lroons twin. I know I saw it in the last 3 or 4 years, and I keep searching for it. It makes the Fleschbachs ‘preggo on black velvet’ look very tame. Keep your eye bleach handy.

    Thanks Jon, you nailed that huckster right on the head.

    • Richard Grant

      I know that Buddha thing you’re talking about, ze moo. Good God. Eye bleach isn’t enough.

      • ze moo

        Ten internet points for the first one to find and post it.

        • Pierrot

          google is your friend, refresh
          eta: Disqus is refusing to show it!

          • ze moo

            Nice, but not the pic I was thinking of . It has Lroon in a Hindu type loincloth with very phallic overtones.

            • There’s at least two others. The first is probably the one you want.

            • Totally Tone 1.1

              As a Buddhist, I think these are hilarious.

            • Scientology like to say that it’s the 20th century Buddhism. I doubt they asked many Buddhists their opinion of that.

            • Totally Tone 1.1

              I’ve actually been asked the question, and I can only give my opinion about it (not speaking for all Buddhists, of course). There are only two aspects of Scientology that bear any resemblance to classical Buddhism — Reincarnation and the meditative quality of the TRs and Auditing. For the record, I’ve never experienced any of these Scientology practices in my life, but from what I’ve read on my own and have observed here in the Bunker, I honestly don’t see a deep connection.

              First of all, the Buddhist concept of “reincarnation” isn’t the same as that of Scientology. Buddhism denies the existence of a permanent, unchanging soul or person whereas Scientology has the thetan.

              Also, meditation and the Scientology practices (as I’ve read about them) don’t have the same intent. The purpose of Buddhist meditation is to develop concentration and mindful awareness of reality, not to uncover past lives, to tackle engrams, or to develop gnarly powers.

              So it seems that L. Ron Hubbard did have some exposure to Buddhist texts, but I haven’t seen anything to indicate that he incorporated very much into Scientology.

            • Mooser

              Funny, you don’t look Bhuddish.

            • Once_Born

              It looks to me like a sort of Buddhist mag-lev railway – and the next train is coming. Ron does not seem to understand that you should stay off railway tracks…)

        • Jimmy3
  • Anonymous

    Great post (again) by John Atack.

    I’ve come to similar conclusions about most auditing. It creates a temporal state of Solipsistic Buoyancy.

    The buoyancy that one feels after a good auditing “win” does seem to make one crave even more auditing and it also makes one susceptible to the ideations of others – especially Hubbard. The L’s and FPRD in particular have the peculiar effect of bringing into being the paradoxical state of believing one is more “powerful” yet simultaneously seem to make one malleable by others in ways that are self-destructive.

    The further sensation that auditing creates, which is assisted greatly by all the Hubbard tripe about your “eternity” and the whole Scientology cosmology, is that you are JUST THIS CLOSE to understanding EVERYTHING.

    But somehow, that understanding (of everything) never quite appears and one is left chasing that illusory goal forever…at great expense.

    And since the “tech” at the lower Scientology Onion levels sorta “works” but the real money is to be made (by the church) on the OT levels, the secrecy and lying that goes on about those upper levels and the supposed “gains” to be had as an “OT” are most intense.

    OSA, fundamentally, exist to protect the revenue stream from the OT levels. Almost everything that horrid organization does is designed to keep that part of the scam alive.

    http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105/

  • Techie

    Jon has as usual cut to the heart of the matter with surgical precision. One really important take-away, that is getting some discussion from Peter and others below, is the concept of a “win” or “cognition”. Some people seem to think that if they got some kind of epiphany or realization (what Hubbard meant by “cognition” even though in normal English the word has another meaning) then the subject “works” or “works for them” end of story, now it’s all Koolaid all the way down. Factually people defend their wins long after they have rejected the rest of the subject and everything associated with it. Some will remember all the fun we had with Theo S and Vinaire who still insisted on their “wins” even after rejecting Hubbard and the horse he rode in on. Some say Hubbard had some good ideas but was a bad man. Well, the truth is that Hubbard stole a lot of ideas from others, and some of them were good ideas. I suggest finding out for yourself. Maybe some day there will be a cross referenced data base of Hubbard ideas and where he got them so we can just go to the real source and find out what has changed since Hubbard ripped it off then set it in stone as ultimate truth for eternity. Anyway, until then we can have some sympathy for those who are, as Hubbard phrased it “stuck in a win”. If you had a fear of falling, and went in to an auditor, and he guided you to a false memory of falling from a spaceship that you then “realized” was the “reason” for your fear of falling in the present day, with an associated release of dopamine, you could think your irrational fear was now “erased” and would happily gush to the examiner and all your friends that you had a big win. If you take a little courage next time you climb a ladder, you could even think that Scientology worked. You would be very wrong, but it would be hard for another to convince you of this. You remember the dopamine release, you remember the “cognition”, you seem to be able to climb ladders. Scientology “works”. But the truth is in all likelihood the fear is not completely gone. In truth the epiphany is just the result of the release of dopamine. You feel like you normally do when you realize something important, like where you left your car keys, so your brain provides an explanation that tells you why. This happens all the time in normal life. When you find out you won the lottery or invented something that actually works, or make a bet on the stock market that pays off, your brain releases dopamine and you feel good. This is a normal part of life. The cult plays on this to produce dependency. It is a cynical con that plays on human nature. H. Keith Henson wrote an excellent essay on this here. I am not saying that the epiphany can’t be real. sometimes it is. Just realize that such epiphanies are a normal part of real life. Years after I got out of Scientology I would sometimes have an epiphany about something. At first I thought it was leftover “wins” from my last sessions! Then I realized it was just part of normal life. You learn new things, or put together seemingly unrelated experiences, or read a good book or something. Then if you are even the slightest bit introverted you see how they can apply to your own life and voila! a Win. Wins are good, have wins all you want, Just don’t think Scientology or any other activity or subject has a monopoly on them. The realizations you seem to get from Scientology were there in your heart all along. You just have to lead a slightly self-examined life to find them on your own. And you won’t have to pay megabucks for them or risk your sanity either!

    • Richard Grant

      Thanks for this exceptionally clear-headed and thoughtful comment, Techie.

      I’ve personally made a practice — dating from a memorably disastrous Italian meal in 1975 — of never questioning or denigrating the “wins” of Scientologists. One of the pleasures of having interesting and eccentric friends is that you get to hear all these great stories about the various crazy shit they’ve gotten up to or in to. To badly paraphrase Napoleon: Never interrupt a dinner companion while she is in the process of giving you great material for a novel.

      I especially love your insight, Techie, that the wins and cognitions of Scientologists are of a piece with other common experiences — epiphanies, as you say — that people have in life. These things are real and rewarding, and some may have lasting impact. So I’ve never felt an urge to throw cold water on them, whatever private feelings I might have about the source or the meaning of the experience.

      I would say, however, that merely being a polite and sympathetic listener may not always be good enough. The dinner companion in question had just experienced what I now understand to be fairly typical early wins from auditing and from the Life Improvement Course. And I believe she hoped, and maybe expected, that after hearing about these wins — if I truly believed and understood them — I would be excited enough to join her in the great Scientology adventure. No amount of smiling and pouring more Chianti and encouraging her to keep talking was going to cut it. I was, it seemed, in Apathy. And I was out of a decent chunk of that week’s paycheck.

      Maybe in the long run what makes a win real or not is not the experience itself but make we make of it and what we do with it.

      • Techie

        One of the reasons for the excellent rule of etiquette that says we should avoid discussing politics and religion in family gatherings. The first cut is the deepest, and the early wins are the most mind-blowing. In the honey-moon period, when you don’t really know all about it and are willing to fill in the gaps with speculations and forgive the more obvious leaps of reasoning, you find it hard to believe anyone would not jump right into the subject with you as soon as you tell them about it. Too bad Vance Woodward withdrew his book “Addicted to Scientology”, he covers it pretty thoroughly in a completely non-serious way.

    • Jon Atack

      For your data base, see Jeff Jacobsen’s paper and my own Possible Origins for Dianetics and Scientology (how do I come up with these snappy titles?) to see where the bulk of the ideas came from. Are they good ideas? Well, most of them came from Crowley, who reckoned he was The Beast 666 – from the birth engram to ‘past lives’ and the Scn cross (which is a crossed out cross, of course). Dianetics is from Freud, who disowned it because it just made people more devoted to the therapist (is that a good idea?). The visualizations of creative processing strengthen the imagination, which can be very unhealthy. Unless you really believe that the hundreds of billions of galaxies out there are really being shoved about by our postulates (or ‘wishes’ as they used to be known, before Hub took over the wishing well and put up the rates).

      I think the whole edifice of abreaction has fallen, with scrutiny. Examining our experiences looking for the roots of our behaviour is a blind alley. Last week, New Scientist had an article about OCD, showing that it is the behaviour that changes the thoughts (perhaps why cognitive behavioural therapy is so effective). Replacing an irrational hypnoid belief with another does change behaviour, but it doesn’t put you any more in control. As Hub pointed out in DMSMH, you’re just overlaying old suggestions with new. Better to resolutely face reality and accept the scientific method of investigation.

      The cognition is another fascinating example of propaganda by redefinition of words (from the man who holds the record for such redefinitions – two 500 page dictionaries!). A ‘thought’ becomes a ‘revelation’. These revelations are usually more to do with the euphoria than resolutions of Fermat’s last theorem or the unified field theory. All too often, they amount to ‘Ron was right’ which is a terrible drain on self-determinism. One of my little exercises (and this will only cost you a year’s pay) is to ask a Thetanist which of Hubbard’s ideas they disagree with. If they have become more self-determined through scn, they will have more disagreements. You can even crack the identification-association-differentiation stuff from the data series, if you’re feeling really savage. I call the state attained Ron-determined. He censure this as ‘single valued logic’ in Science of Survival, where he grabbed Korzybski’s ‘infinity valued logic’ which thereafter sank, without trace.

  • joeapple212

    ” The brain chemistry of a “floating needle” is doubtless the dopamine stimulation that attends pleasure — from sex, to drugs, to gambling. It gets you high with “very good indicators” as the first indication that you have reached a “win.” The hypnotist — or “auditor” — sees the euphoria (a first indication of trance: recognised by hypnotists for a century before Hubbard)…”

    Not true.

    Jon Atack is brilliant. With his beautiful mind, his encyclopedic memory, (and his love for Hendrix), he is an invaluable contributor to this blog.

    But, I haven’t always agreed with his characterization of auditing as hypnosis, so I did a little research. I did the research because I happen to respect Jon Atack very much. I think it’s fair to say he knows more about hypnotism than I do. But, what he says about hypnotism does not square with the science I know about the brain. I could be wrong, so I tried to find some credible references.

    Hypnotism has it’s roots in the eighteenth century, along with animal mesmerism. This would be considered prescientific.

    In the 17th century Charcot presented hypnotism as science, or at least he showed that hypnotism was a real phenomenon.

    Since then, many studies have been done and many books have been written about hypnosis.

    Also, ‘since then’, all kinds of advances have been made in brain science, especially in the late twentieth century…especially from 1990 onward.

    It seems to me that ‘brain scientists’ mention hypnosis only once in a while, and only in very specific terms. Yet they very commonly refer to “unconscious” thought processes, and how most mental activity is unconscious.

    ‘Non-brain scientists’ (if I may use that expression) seem to use the word hypnotism in much broader terms. They seem to describe hypnotism as any kind of unconscious influence on the psyche. That’s where I get off the train, because, based on what I know about brain, that makes no sense to me at all..

    And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, the maestro himself, Antonio Damasio…

    “Situations in which consciousness is suspended or diminished, such as slow-wave sleep, hypnosis, and some forms of anesthesia, are associated with reduced activity in the cingulate cortex; on the other hand, REM sleep, as well as myriad attention paradigms are associated with increased activity in the cingulate cortex.”

    – Antonio Damasio, “The Feeling of What Happens – Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness,” 1999 pg 262

    Let’s break it down…

    Brain state A
    Situations in which consciousness is suspended or diminished (reduced activity in cingulate cortex)

    a) “Slow-wave sleep” – a deep and dreamless sleep.

    b) “Hypnosis”

    c) “some forms of anesthesia”

    Brain state B
    Consciousness (increased activity in the cingulate cortex)

    a) “myriad attention paradigms” – For example, being awake and paying attention to something.

    b) “REM sleep” – Dreaming. Again, even in a dream, you’re paying attention to something. So, in terms of brain activity, you’re conscious – conscious of what’s happening in your dream. You might even hear sounds, while asleep, and incorporate these sounds into your dream. That’s consciousness. Damasio describes consciousness as “a feeling of knowing.”

    In any Scientology auditing I ever had, I was conscious of what was happening. So, because I was conscious, in terms of brain function, it’s not hypnosis.

    If it’s not hypnosis, how do clams become so brainwashed?

    Blame it on the dopamine? Dopamine, with it’s feeling of reward, is involved in just about everything we do. It rewards us. From an evolutionary standpoint, it (hopefully) encourages us to do the things we need to do to survive. Without it, we would eventually stop functioning. And yes, that dopamine rush rewards the person being audited – it the encourages the clam to continue in scientology. But that’s how the normal brain works, so how is that an “indication of trance”?

    So, just how does a person become a “true believer”? How can we explain this bizarre transformation? Is it the repetition?

    Processes can be repetitive. If that’s drag, then you won’t like it….But some people really trip on those repetitive processes.

    I once read about a test for creativity. You simply ask the question, how is a pencil like a piano? You keep asking the same question…the more examples a person can give of how a pencil is like a piano, the more creative they are. I could give other examples, even examples of repetition in auditing, but I think it’s already obvious that repetition is not necessarily synonymous with “trance states” that cause you to be “hypnotized.”

    So, if it’s not hypnosis, what’s really going on with scientology auditing and mind control?

    In auditing, you describe something, and the auditor asks for an “earlier similar” – an earlier memory (real or imagined).

    I know Hubbard says this has to do with “chains” of memories…

    Present day understanding of memory goes way beyond that concept. Memory is way more complex and exquisitely beautiful than that.

    “Tell me where dwell the thoughts, forgotten till thou call them forth?” – William Blake

    Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel says memory is better described as “recollection,” because, in order to remember, the brain re-collects information stored in different places. He also described memory as “a form of mental time travel [which] frees us from the constraints of time and space.”

    But, when you see a therapist, do they ask for memory after memory after memory? No. So what is this really all about? Isn’t asking for memories, (based on similarities), a kind of caricature of the very thing that makes us human?

    “The triggering of memories by analogy lies so close to what seems to be the essence of being human that it is hard to imagine what mental life would be like without it.”

    – “Surfaces and Essences – Analogy As the Fuel and Fire of Thinking” Douglas Hofstadter and Emmanuel Sander – 2013

    In other words, we interpret the world around us by comparing situations, (consciously or unconsciously), to things we’ve experienced in the past (memories). When you sit someone down and have them remember things in a deliberate way, recall after recall, aren’t you are summoning (mimicking?) the same mental machinery that evolved to help us make sense of the world around us?

    “And what does ‘to makes sense of’ mean? It means the automatic triggering, or retrieved unconscious evocation, of certain familiar categories, which, once retrieved from dormancy, help us to find some order in the chaos.” – Hofstadter-Sanders, 2013

    Let’s say you’re an emotionally vulnerable person, trying to make sense of the chaos in your life. You are “searching.” You get into Scientology, and soon enough, (after a bit of yelling at an ashtray), an auditor is walking you down memory lane…

    Reviewing the past, (and making fluid, level-shifting analogies), is how we naturally try to make sense of new situations. But, what happens when you’re reviewing your past, and at the same time, you’re being indoctrinated into a new way of looking at life?

    Does this influence your autobiographical sense of who and what you are, and where you come from?

    And then there’s the concomitant “transference” – childhood love for mommy and daddy transferred to the auditor, Scientology and Ron.

    Psychiatrist Zagury testified in French court against Scientology.
    http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/06/paris-trial-v.html?m=1
    He used words like “suggestible” and “transference,” but, to my knowledge, he didn’t use the word “hypnosis.” Nor did he say “hypnotized,” or hypno-anything. Why do you think that is? My two cents? If he, speaking as a professional, said Scientology was hypnosis, then I think some other things would have to be considered hypnotic as well, such as some religious beliefs (he was very careful and intelligent about that).

    But what about the “cognitions,” the realizations clams have, that they attribute to Rob’s genius?

    Ron’s idea about “the analytical mind,” (the idea you need to be free of your “reactive” or unconscious mind in order to think straight), is nonsense. The unconscious mind is where all the computing power is.

    On an unconscious level, the brain performs parallel thought processes – thinking in different ways at the same time. Unconsciously, you could be thinking an issue through four different ways at once…if and when a consensus is reached, the thought becomes conscious.

    Let’s say you’re in a relaxed state, thinking about a problem. Later, a solution occurs to you…you have an “aha” moment. That’s the result of the awesome computing power that exists on an unconscious level. You feel good. thank you dopamine! But now of this is a matter of being hypnotized or not…. besides….there are other variables. Brain function is complex. (This is a subject for several books, not just a few paragraphs.) For instance, a person could be awake, but not conscious. This can happen because of damage to the cingulate cortex, the same part of the brain where reduced activity is associated with a hypnotic state. With all due respect, think about people like Terry Schiavo. They wake up in the morning; they are no longer asleep. Their bodies are “awake” (gathering energy), but with no one behind the wheel. They might even walk with some help… “but they will not look at you or any object with any semblance of intention…the notion of zombie-like behavior could perfectly well have come from the descriptions of these patients, although it did not.” – Damasio

    Did it come from Scientologists?

    With their eerie similarity to zombies, Scientologists seem to be hypnotized. At least in the colloquial sense of the word. But, when you think it through in terms of actual brain function, you realize that’s not very accurate.

    p.s. (If the clam-scam were really that frkin simple, hypnotists would be raking it in, right? Hypnotism would be the road to riches for any con-artist or bank robber. Also, even if they don’t use hypnotism, I can’t help but think that some politicians have learned certain techniques from scientology.)

    • Peter

      This is a brilliant treatise. Thank you very much. Good references, as well.

      “But, when you see a therapist, do they ask for memory after memory after memory? No.”

      Not all do, but some do. It’s referred to as “regression therapy”. I always thought of the earlier similar approach as asking me to scan through a mental or memory file drawer. As I got close to something which was “similarly charged”, the auditor would simply indicate “that!” (the needle was banging on or close to something), perhaps repeating “that” several times to get me to the precise file. I always found something therein which aligned with what I was working on. Sometimes the process had to be repeated until I found the actual situation or incident which was at the basis of whatever my current problem was. But the system did work…for me.

      • lucille austero

        No offense, but you have heard the phrase “it’s all in your head?” The comments today are exceptionally enlightening. You should read through them.

        • Peter

          Actually, Lucille, I’ve read them all. Does that mean I have to agree with them all? There are so many differing viewpoints and emotions involved, it sometimes gets bewildering. There are some here (unknown number) who believe I’m a plant/troll. I chuckle every time there’s a hint of that. I’ve not been near an org or mission since about 1980. Not planning on it anytime soon, either.

          I’ve tried, without much success, to enumerate some of the wins and the plus points I personally experienced “back then” to hopefully give the never-ins on the blog some reality on why so many of us got in, stayed in, then left when it became obvious that the inmates of a new system had taken over. A few get that, most don’t. Never having had such experiences we did, it’s unreal to them that there could have been any, based on their “new” information. I do understand that.

          Others seem to think that if I don’t agree with some “expert” on the blog, I must be supporting scio in some underhanded way. Such folks can’t be persuaded otherwise and I leave them to their incorrect views.

          Btw, no offense taken. 🙂

      • Mooser

        A goddam e-meter doesn’t measure squat. Can yopu explain why the needle moves, what it is in response to? And gee, isn’t the meter undamped, and with the “tone-arm” over calibrated by a factor of at least 10X?

        And BTW, do you ghet to see the e-meter doing what the auditor says it is doing, or does he tell you what the needle is doing while you hold the cans?

        • lucille austero

          They believe in the e-meter. Religious belief.

    • Captain Howdy

      Antonio Damasio? Hmmmm…where have I heard that name before?

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      Re: “In any Scientology auditing I ever had, I was conscious of what was happening. So, it’s not hypnosis.”

      I believe that you make a fundamental error. I would state this error as the assumption that if you are conscious, you are not hypnotized. Essentially the idea that if you know what is happening, you are not under hypnosis.

      I disagree. I think that the idea that hypnosis means unconscious or being unaware is wrong.

      I think that hypnosis is much more about associations and suggestibility and acting as if those suggestions and associations are true or real. The role of the operator (hypnotist) is to establish associations and suggestions you then react to and reason with. You may not know that you are acting and thinking with false or altered perceptions or ideas, but you DO know you are thinking and acting. You are conscious. And you remember the thinking and acting.

      Of course there is amnesia or not being able to remember because of a particular type of hypnotic command, but that is only a part of it.

      To be convinced of the suggestion of past lives and Hubbard’s greatness and the spectre of a dwindling spiral of spiritual beings in the thrall of ancient misdeeds, and then acting in every aspect of life as if these are facts is being in a state of hypnosis.

      The study of how to create these suggestions and associations so as to generate in a person’s life the desired thinking and behavior is the subject of hypnosis. Or religion. Or confidence games. Or military training. Or car sales. Or advertising.

      When localized, and the suggestions and associations are temporary and strong and result in easily observable nonsensical behavior such as a stage act, we call it hypnotism.

      When it is widespread and we ourselves are under the thrall we call it great marketing. Or a wonderful life-changing experience. Or that new car smell.

      I respect the brain scientists. I think that they will discover the mechanics of the brain. But if I may make an analogy of hardware vs software, a hacker doesn’t need to understand electronics to know how to gain control of the computer.

      • joeapple212

        “I believe that you make a fundamental error…that if you are conscious, you are not hypnotized.”

        I spelled it out as clearly as I can. I even quoted Damasio, a world-respected neuroscientist. If you don’t agree, you are contradicting years and years of research. And, there’s a lot more to it than that, more than I can include in one post. The reticular formation is also fascinating to read about.

        I think it’s sad that ex-scientologists don’t generally pursue brain science when they leave scientology. There’s no better way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Intelligence is seeing a thing or situation for what it really is.

        “I think that hypnosis is much more about associations and suggestibility and acting as if those suggestions and associations are true or real.”

        Not true. Not. at. all.

        You don’t have to be hypnotized to think something is “true” or “real.”

        I respect your contributions to this blog, MLT. You are great, you really are. If brain science is not your thing, that’s OK. It’s just information. I’m just trying to include information that’s not always brought up in a discussion of auditing.

    • Mooser

      ” The brain chemistry of a “floating needle” is doubtless the dopamine stimulation that attends pleasure..”

      Because the amount of “dopamine” or “dopamine stimulation” is reflected in slight changes in resistance, as crudely indicated when measured hand-to-hand? Okay, sure.

      Gosh, id the any physiological function which can’t be measured by an e-meter? It measure (let me see how my memory is) skin moisture, it measures dopamine, it can tell when you’ve been pinched, it’s a “crude lie detector”.
      Gosh, all the info science is missing by not measuring resistance, from hand to hand. Such a shame, that scientists have to go through all that hassle to measure dopamine levels, when a simple, reliable method exists to measure it. Must be a psychiatric conspiracy.

      • Elar Aitch

        We need to get you an e-meter to play with Mooser ….could be a Bunker series!

  • Richard Grant

    To appreciate the island of sanity that is the Bunker, one needs only to stick a toe in someplace like Milestone Two (or maybe the South African blog on the wrong day). Scientology_411 tweeted out this link in the predawn hours, East Coast time:

    http://milestonetwo.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/they-fear-it-because-it-works/

    I believe this is the same fellow who attacked Chris Shelton a few days ago. But what surprised me were the “attaboy” comments by familiar names (mostly from Mike Rinder’s blog, I think). If I were Dave Miscavige, I might consider dispatching a “recovery team” to entice some of these folks back into the fold. They’ve still got what it takes.

    • Tony Ortega

      This is what continually stuns me — that Miscavige is pushing out so many people who think like this, and who could be relied on to fork over huge amounts for imaginary body thetans. It’s really at the heart of why Scientology is dying. Miscavige is so pathological, he can’t even hold on to the true believers.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Because true believers expect tangible results. The longer you are auditing, the background effects wear off, lose their power, and it’s harder to not notice you’re having the same old problems, or still not able to fly. Miscavige has been getting rid of the tech believers since day one, starting with Mayo. DM figured out some time ago it’s a lot let hassle and cost effective to keep a few whales on the line who could care less about any cause other than their own. Keeping this scam going is lot of work. Whale farming only requires a few trophies and party invitations and the cost/benefit is 1,000 to 1. Maybe Mike Rinder was right – he may be pathological, but he’s no dummy.

        • Richard Grant

          I still share Tony’s puzzlement, though, THDNE. These particular believers (unlike many exes who comment here) DO continue to insist that the tech works and that they DO have tangible results.

          I fully honor your and Mike’s point that it’s much more efficient to farm a docile pod of whales (I think that’s the collective noun we want here) than to futz around with the plebes in the cheap seats. But that doesn’t mean ordinary rank-and-file Scientologists are worth nothing. Even disregarding their monetary contributions, they are bodies in the shop at near-empty orgs, faces in the crowd at events, a pool of potential staffers and SO, and — in the case of this one poster, at least — suitably obstreperous tools on the internet. Crashing membership may not be the worst problem Miscavige has got right now, but it’s certainly up there among the bigger ones.

          I’m continuing to nurse this theory that stripping Scientology down to a more micro-manageable size may be a subconscious response on Dave’s part to the unbearable stress of trying to run, singlehandedly, a collapsing criminal enterprise.

          • DrGreatCham

            I can’t take credit for the observation, but others (both true believers and skeptics) have pointed out that Miscavage is no longer “delivering the tech” in favor of Ideal Org real estate puffery. The “true believers” that authentically WANT auditing are seeing it being destroyed by what Elron called “horse-aesthetics” and one-way donations to nowhere.

            • Mooser

              Anybody who isn’t getting enough “tech” needn’t fear! If they can’t get it from “corporate” and if there’s no “indies” where they live, they can always go with Fisher-Wallace

              And they use “patented radio frequencies” not plain ol’ DC like an E-meter. Leave Scientology, and go with science! Go with Fisher-Wallace.

          • Techie

            True, and his other problem is he knows it doesn’t work. The Lisa McPherson disaster and other experiences showed him how little he really knows about it himself, and he has thrown out or neutered all those who could have helped him actually reform it. So he is stuck driving a Model A on a freeway full of Toyotas. He has gradually de-emphasized actual Scientology delivery in favor of safer income sources.

            • DrGreatCham

              “The Lisa McPherson disaster and other experiences showed him how little he really knows about it himself…”

              Yes, blowing 20 million dollars (conservatively estimated) worth of cabbage and nearly getting deposed was a powerful incentive to go to real estate and legal donation begging.

            • Mooser

              You can’t “reform” a fraud. A fraud is a fraud.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              My pyramid scheme is better than yours.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Yes, your last paragragh explains what I was trying to say. And to take up what JohnP was pointing out, it is true … there are 50 to 65 yr olds and their grandkids are not going to follow when they’re gone. You can be sure their Wills and Trusts have long been arranged to keep Dave in his 1000 thread Egyptian. He has been shedding annoying whiners by the boatload. Cartwright, Duggan, Cruise, Travolta, 3 or 4 others are plenty to keep Dave comfy for a good decade, and who knows how much they are floating his way via trusts. The onslaught of legal cases might have had something to do with his acceleration of wholesale declares of recent news.

        • John P.

          The only problem with whale farming is that whales don’t grow on trees. Pardon the horribly mixed metaphor, by the way.

          Even Grant Cardone, one of the younger whales, is in his late 50s (though Superskank #1, who never would have made it as one of the Global Capitalism HQ supermodels is quite a bit younger, which makes him look less doddering than he actually is). Hell, even James Packer, the Aussie that Tom Cruise spent so much time trying to lure back to the cult is nearing 50. Every whale that croaks or blows going forward is a major loss to the cult, since they are not recruiting too many new ones these days.

          I think Richard’s comment is entirely accurate: while the short term financial focus is on exploiting the few hundred whales or dolphins at the top of the economic heap, you have to have throngs of riff-raff to help keep up the illusion. The fact that most of the staff come from Eastern Europe or from the kids of existing members should tell you that this part of the scam isn’t exactly going along swimmingly either.

        • Mooser

          “Whale farming”!!

      • Jgg2012

        Yes, it’s a “one strike and your out” mentality, which is unrealistic.

      • Mooser

        “Miscavige is so pathological, he can’t even hold on to the true believers.”

        I’ve heard there’s a good chance Miscavige may be voted out of office at the next Scientology convention. It’ll be tough for him, but Scientology does need a more effective leader.

        • Mark Foster

          I appreciate your dry humor 🙂

      • OrangySky

        Touché!

    • Ineedcaffeinenow

      I discovered that site after reading the South African blog. A former scientologist was explaining how he is now viewing non-scientologists differently and with more respect after he was declared, and he was attacked by someone from the Milestone 2 place. That site reminds me of when I first started reading about scientology and how insane and scary I felt the followers to be.

      • Richard Grant

        I know what you mean! Though when I first encountered Scientology, when I lived about a block from the org in DC, I found the folks involved to be crazy but not scary. (I may have been wrong, as some of them, including an old friend, got involved in the Snow White affair just a few years later.) It was only in the 80s that I started picking up the scary vibe. Don’t know if it was a real change or just my own evolving perceptions.

        • Ineedcaffeinenow

          I discovered the subject of Scientology by accidentally stumbling across the Operation Clambake site and then reading about the Jenna “have you raped a baby” Elfman incident (both happened around the same time for me). After that, there was no going back from the insane/scary combo platter.

      • Espiando

        That was good old Ronnie Bell performing the unwarranted assault. He got pissy because the SA blog was supposed to be for true-blue Scientologists (“getting back in comm”) without a word of criticism to be uttered about Hubtard, and Ronnie felt the post was critical of Scientology. I, of course, called him out (politely) as having done this same exact routine at Marty’s and at Mike’s when their blogs started showing anything other than Absolute Belief of Hubtard.

        Milestone Two is just about the only place left for Ronnie, Robin Remoteviewed, and Carcha to post now that everyone else has displayed Impurity. This is a good thing. It makes them easier to destroy.

        • Ineedcaffeinenow

          They are the fundamentalists of the fundamentalists.

        • Elar Aitch

          I think the medical term for this phenomenon is ‘circling the drain’.

    • John P.

      Thanks for sharing this article. This is a snapshot of what a reasonably intelligent cult staff member probably believed circa 1981. It’s interesting to see that the author’s views have not changed since then, despite his presumably been off the payroll for many years.

      There were a couple howlers worth commenting on here:

      In 1950 the AMA had analyzed Dianetics and found it to be a very powerful technology.

      Really? I seem to have missed that. As I recall, the APA basically laughed Hubbard out of town in their reviews of Dianetics. In other words, as the Anons say, “Dox or STFU.”

      But wait, it gets better:

      In fact, the tech from Dianetics has been so respected throughout the last 60 years that it is used today by AMA/APA sanctioned practitioners to help veterans get over trauma in hopes that they will get better and live normal lives. This tech is not called Dianetics, it is called TIR (Trauma Incident Reduction but it is controlled by the AMA and APA).

      There are a few minor differences between Scientology and TIR. Incidentally, we should first laugh off the assertion that this is “controlled by the AMA and APA.” They don’t get money either from licensing of or use of this particular method. While I’m not a psychologist, from what I understand, TIR, EMDR and other therapies for PTSD are all used only in very specific cases. Hubbard claimed that the “reactive mind” was responsible for absolutely everything that happened in your life. And of course, the actual implementation of the techniques for any sort of PTSD therapy are very different from anything in Scientology, even though both are about reducing the effects of emotionally charged incidents.

      I must say it is totally out of character for any Scientologist to take credit for the work of another. Oh, wait…

      However, Medicos can make a small fortune off of Lumbosis [a Hubbard made-up word for an imaginary disease] by involving surgery and extensive costly follow-up treatment.

      Most surgeons I have met are making all the money they can rake in by treating legitimate problems. This is approximately as naïve and idiotic as claiming that “they” have a car in Detroit all ready to sell the gets 1000 miles per gallon, but the Big Oil companies are preventing its sale.

      Because the AMA really has had something to fear: The workability of Dianetics and Scientology Technology.

      We in Global Capitalism HQ laugh at this sort of thinking. where is the evidence of this workability? Show me the clinical trials. Show me independent scientific validation. As in my comment in reply to “Peter” below, anecdotal success stories, however specific and verifiable, don’t count.

      Once again, this shows unbelievable naïveté in understanding how economics works. The AMA, the APA, Big Pharma and all the rest have very real and effective competitors that serve as a check and balance on their ability to protect profits from their current business model. Insurance companies won’t pay for treatments that are ineffective (with the exception of chiropractic under some insurance, which is much more of a political decision that it is medically valid one). These days, new psych drugs must not only be certified safe by the FDA, but also must be significantly more effective than drugs on the market before insurance will reimburse them. There are lots of people on psychiatric medication that costs thousands of dollars per month per patient. if $1000 per month of Scientology auditing were anywhere close to the effectiveness of $3000 per month in psychiatric drugs, I guarantee overnight that all health insurers in the country would require Scientology auditing to be undertaken and to have failed before a patient would be permitted to take psychiatric meds.

      The naysayers have also had some wins with the tech, and it scares them because they are suppressive and they know that they have to not only stop it but bury the tech so it doesn’t ever get used correctly again.

      Au contraire. What it will take to bury “the tech” is to continue to bring more of it into the sunlight where we can laugh at it. and in doing so, there is room for plenty of lulz.

      • Jimmy3

        I posted there last night asking for documentation or sources on the first two items you quoted, and a few others, including how they knew it was the FBI, CIA and MI6 that had infiltrated the GO before they’d even begun to investigate. The comment doesn’t seem to have made it through moderation.

        • John P.

          I am reeling in stunned surprise. Fortunately, since I was sitting in the comfortable seats of one of the Global Capitalism HQ corporate jets as I read your revelation, I was at no risk for fainting, and the flight attendants were able to revive me quickly.

          • Richard Grant

            Yes, I imagine they got your tone level right up.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        JohnP, the conspiracy believers kept this pretty much within their own circles. Never heard of most of this when in. It was crazy enough what we Did hear in sea org circles, but everything down to the most boring little detail was need-to-know basis. The people I knew that were in very early on that were believers in great conspiracies were survivalists, had half their basements stocked up for The End, bunch of John Birchers, still saw Commies under ever rock. Now mind you, some of these worked in, well let’s just say some mighty interesting fields, some in emerging computer, some in aerospace, many engineers in the bunch, and almost all were attached at the hip to some major religious faiths along with the Dianetics and Scientology up until late 70’s to early 80’s.

        I was actually quite shocked to learn that there were still some, although just a few now, that kept this torch burning. From those I knew, not a single one changed their vision or quenched their thirst for this dramatic method of denial before passing away. There are meds for this sort of thing now, but no way would any of the lot seen any psychiatrist because they were probably plants too.

      • Have I told you lately that I absolutely love you John?

      • Elar Aitch

        Bam! Bitch went down.

        • Jimmy3

          That is an awesome Scream reference.

    • Frodis73

      It would be funny, well it is, but those people seriously scare me at times. The denial is just beyond…anything reasonable.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Wow! That scares the hell out of me.
      Tony, thanks for your sunlight. Please, keep writing fast and furious–you are doing a mitzvah.

    • I want to point out that I got that link from another Bunkerite comment yesterday. I’ve rarely paid attention to that blog but will watch them more closely in the future after seeing this lunacy.

      • Richard Grant

        Thanks for the clarification!

        For Bunkerites on Twitter, @Scientology_411 is a must-follow. Your one-feed source for all Hubbardite hijinks!

        • Thank you for the kind words Richard, I truly appreciate it.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      From the last comment over there that I could stand to read:

      I’m sorry, but the anecdotal and observed evidence is too overwhelming, at this point, to discount the efficacy of the vast bulk of LRH’s life work. I’m afraid the ‘Old Man’ really did discover some of the axiomatic truths of life, and was able to translate those into workable therapies to better the average humanoid’s existence.

    • Elar Aitch

      CommunicatorIC regularly posts on ESMB links to the most excessive of Milestone 2 insanity. The response to make interesting (and lulz) reading

  • Mark

    You’ve hit the nail bang on the head again, Jon: “Metteya”, indeed! Yes, and I’m the Supreme and Holy King of Ireland, Iona and all the Britains that are within the Sanctuary of the Gnosis and Dowager Empress Presumptive of Queen Maud Land… (refresh):

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      close! I like yours better

      http://i.imgur.com/VRonPJF.jpg?3

      • Mark

        He looks like he’s piddling in the Indian Ocean!

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Do you have a copy in your bathroom?

        • No, he’s screwing Australia. Or trying to.

          • jeff

            Tony Abbot’s already beaten him to it.

        • Jon Atack

          I don’t think he’s piddling, look at that grin…

    • Jon Atack

      I can only fall on my knees to worship you, sacred Supreme and Holy King, Founder, Source, Commodore, briefly Admiral and Originator of all Eternity. But then, Rajneesh called himself ‘Bagwan’ (as opposed to Bagman) which makes all good Hindus blush, and ‘Osho the Buddha.’ He also said, ‘With a living master, everything workssss. With a dead master, nothing worksss.’ His followers don’t seem to have understood that doctrine, nor the vast amounts of valium and nitrous oxide with which he fuelled his illumination. Which reminds me that any serious student of Hub should read the chapter on nitrous oxide in William James’s Varieties of Religious Experience. Hub’s own revelation was the removal of his wisdom teeth under nitrous oxide. It led to Excalibur and the realization that the primary function of religion is to ‘make money, make more money, make others produce, so as to make even more money’ as the scripture ‘Governing Policy’ so succinctly expresses the Source’s intention.

      • Mark

        Ah, the tickle of incense in the nostrils! Rajneesh should have been called ‘Bhagwash’ (‘Eyewash’ already being taken as a suitable epithet for Crowley’s ‘Holy Guardian Angel’ Aiwass). I adhere to the Absolutely Fabulous school of thought about drug-induced illuminations: “Darling, if you want to talk bollocks and discover the meaning of life you’re better off just downing a bottle of whisky. At least that way you’re unconscious by the time you start to take yourself seriously!”

  • Hey! L. Ron Hubbard IS A GOD! you bloody wogs!

    Don’t make me angry!

    • Mark

      Calm down, Tommy – you’re suffering from night starvation because you’ve been forgetting to drink your malted milk again, haven’t you?

    • This passionate young lad has a good grasp on reality in my opinion.

      -Ron

    • Jgg2012

      And there is no Xenu story, no disconnection and we don’t spy on our critics.

  • Sir_Real

    Buddha Belly Blubbard was certainly in the right place at the right time. His evolution from a lying space cadet third rate pulp sci-fi writer to the “deity” of a major scam disguised as a religion proves that.

  • Pete Griffiths

    “If Hubbard created this universe, I think I’d rather be in another one.”

    Ditto 🙂

    • Panopea Abrupta

      Please rise now – we will all sing the hymn “Crock of Rages”, followed by “A Maze in Disgrace.”

      • Illinoisian

        You are, as they say, “Too clever by half.”

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          and double the fun!

          • Richard Grant

            And three times a lady.

    • Mark Foster

      I hoist my ale to thee 🙂

  • Panopea Abrupta

    There are biblical precedents which tend to validate Lord Hubris of Tilden in his opinions of himself and validate his successor who hopefully will also be struck down on the road to Damascus.

    I Say Ah 11:6
    ¶ The wolf shall dwell with the clam,
    and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
    and a little child shall lead them.

    He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the clams with
    his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that
    are with young.

    Ezekiel 37:24
    “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one
    shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.

  • Suppressive Tomato

    Hey, let’s all go get hypnotized and works as slaves for a bloated drug addict. Then a screeching midget can seize power and we can be slaves for him! All I have to do to get started is pay $250 for a “course” where I stare at someone without blinking for two hours, thereby mastering communication? Wow, sign me up.

    In all seriousness, though, Jon’s spot on with the idea that Ron’s deceit about the true aim of his processes is the “alter-is” that permits $cn to persist. That’s straight out of the Phoenix Lectures if I recall correctly. If you told someone coming through the door what I said in my first paragraph, no one in their right mind would spend a minute longer in the place.

    • Mooser

      All anybody had to do is walk up to Ron, or Miscavige, and give them a punch in the schnozz (nose) to see if they are a god or not.

  • N. Graham

    It’s official! $camatology now has more lawyers than cultists!
    http://www.thespoof.com/news/us/122026/its-official-camatology-now-has-more-lawyers-than-members

    • Elar Aitch

      Sounds like a bunkeroo writing. ‘Fess up, whoever you are, so we an shower you with glory

  • I like this lot of ideas. There are echoes of Urban’s conclusion, that – regardless of whether believed himself or not – Hubbard did atain the ability to change the reality of his followers.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist
        • TheHoleDoesNotExist
        • This is why I suckered so many of you in and Scientology will continue to do so as long as it exists.

          -Ron

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I suspected as much. Would you like to see the examiner now and share your win? Would you like other crazy madmen to experience these gains?

            Did you tell all? (okay, that one was kind of mean)

    • Mooser

      “Hubbard did atain the ability to change the reality of his followers.”

      Or maybe the people in the higher echelons of Scientology thought benefits would accrue to them if Hubbard was a God. It couldn’t hurt.
      But they didn’t did they? Did anybody other than Hubbard, and then Miscavige, ever get a dime out of Scientology? Nope! Everybody leaves broke, no matter what position they attain in the organization well, unless they have some subsidiary fraud of their own, sort of a part-time job)

      • ze moo

        Debbie Cook might not agree. For some odd reason, Western New York has been a hotbed of collection companies, some of them clam owned and operated. The Attorney General regularly plays wack a mole with them, but they keep coming back with different name and different ‘board of directors’. The civil forfetures never equal the scam proceeds, so the game goes on.

  • Jefferson Hawkins

    There was also the “Messianic Project” which has been described by Nancy Many and others. That was in 1982 as I recall, and was a huge survey project for Hubbard to find out how to position him as a messiah in the public mind. There were a ton of surveys done to find out public attitudes towards messiahs, what attributes they had and so forth. The idea was to craft biographical material so that it would present Hubbard as a messiah. The whole project was being run directly by Hubbard and the results were being reported back to him. I was peripherally involved in some of the surveying, which was being run out of ASI and the LRH PR network.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Been waiting for the details on this one since I first heard Nancy mention it. If I recall correctly, the person who knows the details is staying quiet out of fear for some reason I can’t remember. Anything you can share would be of interest.

    • RBE

      He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!

    • John P.

      This project of Hubbard’s is as delusional as some of the classics. I would love to see this exposed to the light. Here, Hubbard apparently believed that “Admin Tech,” with its marketing programs based on obsessive surveying (without offering any useful guidance on how to make the right decision based on the survey results), would make it easy to get himself crowned as the next Savior of Mankind(tm).

      This is up there with such classics as:

      * “Mission into Time,” the treasure hunt aboard the Apollo which found exactly none of the gold that Hubbard buried in all his past lives,

      * The takeover of Rhodesia, where Hubbard figured that announcing plans to invest a couple million dollars in the country would grant him a toehold that would, once he showed his brilliance, get the government to make him emperor for life so that he could show all the poor souls how truth, justice and the American Way always win,

      * Bulgravia, where they were dreaming of taking over all the Balkans, including Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece, and bashing them together to make the first country run on Scientology principles. Given the ethnic tensions in the area that have simmered for millennia, how this seemed like a good idea is beyond me. Read some of the documents available on this one to get a clear sense of the delusion.

      I am sure that Hubbard figured that all previous messiah’s happened by accident; none of those guys actually set out to land the job. So with the infallible Admin Tech, he probably figured out that he could have been acclaimed as the world’s next great messiah within a couple weeks of getting the survey work done.

      Words alone can’t being to express the derision that Hubbard deserves over this little escapade.

      • Illinoisian

        “. . . they were dreaming of taking over all the Balkans, including Albania,
        Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece, and bashing them together to make the
        first country run on Scientology principles. Given the ethnic tensions in the area that have simmered for millennia, how this seemed like a good idea is beyond me.”

        He probably thought they just needed an Org Board.

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          Jesus did not have an Org Board and we in RTC think less of him for that reason.

        • Pepper

          Needing and Org Board – that’s funny. What’s not is the level of ignorance and delusion to take over sovereign countries and running them on Scientology principles. I shudder to think what that would look like.

          Good luck converting the Muslims to Scientology too.

      • Chee Chalker

        Hubbard Admin Tech: what could possibly go wrong?

      • valshifter

        I read to my sister the OT8 paper from the Fishman affidavit about him reveling that he is the Atichrist, my sister look at me and she told me “that man is a delusional fool” I just wanted to get her reaction because she does not know about scientology except that they will take your money, and she told me you better stay away from that crap. but you summarized really well all the delusions he was onto.

    • Jgg2012

      Yes, he wanted people to believe he was a God but he knew he wasn’t.

      • Mooser

        “Yes, he wanted people to believe he was a God but he knew he wasn’t.”

        I have the opposite problem, but really, it adds up to the same thing. There’s no use being a god, if nobody will worship you.

    • Man that’s just the cherry on top of the insanity sundae!

    • antibity

      LRH – sure enuf one mess o’ messiah, sir.

    • Pepper

      You have got to be kidding me. A Messiah Survey? That’s unbelievable to me even after being in for over 20 years. I’m so glad I’m out and away from this madness.

  • Mary Jane Barry Sterne

    Excellent article!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Nice to see you here. I hope you and all others in your situation will all be reunited with loves ones very soon. Just wanted you to know when Tony posts stories like yours, we do Not forget and are with you until they all come home.

      • Richard Grant

        THDNE speaks for all of us.

    • Jon Atack

      Thanks! It was just a quick response to Marty’s revelation. He is on the verge of escape and will be a great asset to the Dev-OTs once he’s fallen into the abyss with the rest of us wog reverts…

  • Mark

    RED-X + RED-X + RED-X REMINDER It’s ‘Statsday’ again, when the $ciloons make even more of a bloody nuisance of themselves on CraigsList than usual, by posting loads of spam ads to make this week’s meaningless statistics look slightly better than last week’s meaningless statistics. Pierrot’s just posted update #4 to today’s crop. Main list starts here; scroll down for updates:

    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-107#post-2474735

  • Thank you Jon and Tony for this. As always Jon your insight never ceases to further educate me. Since leaving Scientology I have been avidly reading anything I can get my hands on with regards to human psychology and neuroscience.

    I have experienced that exact same “high” that you are talking about when you speak of gambling, and honestly Jon it really is the closest thing (if not virtually identical) to what I experienced during my first few sessions. On a personal level I have known for some time that gambling and auditing weren’t all that different. At least as far as dopamine responses to repetitive behavior go.

    The difference is that gambling is way more fun than auditing ever was or ever will be. All those flashy lights and noises and games. I could never go back to sitting in a drab room with someone repeating phrases at me again.

  • Jgg2012

    Didn’t Sylvia Stanard just say that Hubbard was “just a man” and you could believe as much or as little as you want?

    • Phil McKraken

      They always say that — believe as much or as little as you want. But of course every day in Scilonville is Opposite Day.

      • Jgg2012

        And what to we say about politicians who say one thing and do another?

        • ze moo

          Usually, we re-elect them.

          • Jgg2012

            But do we consider them gods?

  • BosonStark

    Scientology was a secret god factory with a tissue paper roof which got caught in a perpetual mudslide of truth called the Internet. The assembly line turning out bots who were busily polishing Dr. Hubturd into a god got stuck.

  • Captain Howdy

    It’s obvious L Run wasn’t God or Buddha..he was King of the Gypsies.

  • Tory Christman

    Thank you for discussing this, Tony and Jon! (And each who commented here, too 🙂

    I was raised a Catholic, joined $cientology and dropped “God” and any thought
    of He or She for 30 years…until I saw Oprah mention it in 1999. Someone asked her: “What
    did you do to get to here?” She answered: “All I did was give my life up to God”.

    I’ll never forget it. I sat STUNNED. I was 100 pds over weight then, stuck “in”
    $cientology on OT 7 which did not work for 7 years, I was VERY unhappy, had given them (C of $)
    ALL of our $$$$….and that was IT? That New Year’s Eve I sat inside the
    Shrine at the Scientology New Year’s Event, and I did it. I beamed up to what I
    thought was “God” and said: “Ok, this is IT. I am getting out of the way. Take
    my life for 1 year—do whatever you need to”. (I *thought* I’d end up “Clearing Brazil” or

    some Scientology action. Instead…. I ended up on the Net,
    helped shut down the “Battlefield Earth Message Board”…without help from OSA or
    $cientology. ..who I was rapidly waking up from. After I joined ARS and made
    4,000 posts in 4 weeks, woke up, escaped OUT of $cientology, forever. Hubbard
    God? For me, no way, jose’. 🙂

    JA: “And Rathbun says that Hubbard enforced that fundamentalist view by
    suggesting that he had “descended to earth in human form in order to deliver
    its people from evil.”

    _________________________________________________
    Me: ((Well, that IS an interesting point. Again, I never saw it that way….but it rings a bell now))

    JA: “In other words, Rathbun is saying that Scientology is a “monotheistic”
    religion, and Hubbard is its god”.

    ((My view: I never, ever saw Hubbard as a “God” in any way. In fact, that IS a
    key thing that drew me to $cientology: “It’s an applied philosophy” I was told,
    in 1969. Had I been told: “It’s a religion”…I would have never, ever even
    joined Scientology. Even once “in”…”God” was REALLY played down…being one of the
    “8 dynamics”, and even then, Hubbard
    leaves out the word “God” and says “Higher powers, whatever you believe that to
    be” for the definition of the “8th Dynamic”.
    _______________________________________________________________

    JA: “No single executive has lasted more than a few giddying,
    soul-destroying years of utter obedience to Our Ron”.

    (( From me: Really? What about Ray Mittoff who is locked up w/ quite a few
    other Executives in “The Hole” for y.e.a.r.s. now?

    I know $cientologists totally disregard this, and I know the Hole is no secret to
    you, Jon. Perhaps you consider those “in the Hole” are obedient to Miscavige, not Ron?
    If so, fair enough. I’ve known Ray for over 30
    years now, and he’s still “in” $cientology’s “HOLE”. So my only conclusion is:
    He must still be part of the “Utter obedience to Ron”….even if the immediate “owner”
    is Miscavige. What a mess that is!!))

    _______________________________________________________________________

    JA: “The old Power processes directed some people to the
    “cognition” that the Founder was indeed The Founder”

    ((From me: I did “Power” in the 70’s and the “EP” (“end phenomena” or End product) …http://downloads.wikileaks-press.org/file/scientology-power-and-solo.pdf << I *think* this was it. For me, what I loved MOST
    about "Power" was that FINALLY I could wear a badge that said: "I am on Power Processing. Please do NOT ask me about my case, Power or any other personal questions" (Paraphrase–correct if you know it exactly, plz). This made *me* happy as people were ALWAYS asking me "Did this handle Epilepsy?" ARGH!
    ______________________________________________________________

    JA: "I wrote plenty of embarrassing “success stories,” but I’ve
    had 30 years to reconsider. If Hubbard created this universe, I think I’d
    rather be in another one".

    ((Me: AMEN!! Thank you, Jon and Tony!! This is a vital topic)).

    My love to ALL who take the time to expose this insidious, phony, fraudulent
    BUSINESS pretending to be a “church” or “religion”. Tory/Magoo

    • Prim torturer

      I believe that Hubbard was possessed. And not by your run of the mill demons. One or more of the big ones, possibly Lucifer himself. “I descended to earth to deliver its people from evil.” Right. Let’s start a religion that disavows God completely, deifies man, “do what you will, that is the only law”, serves up monthly human blood sacrifices (forced abortions), commits crime, performs humiliation, degradation, cruelty and horror to its acolytes, separates families, empties bank accounts and protects itself from prosecution with scumbag lawyers and hordes of demons working on their behalf.

      This is why they are so difficult to dislodge. The demons work for the scilons and get pain as payment. I wonder what miscavige would do if confronted by a real exorcist.

      • NOLAGirl

        ” I wonder what miscavige would do if confronted by a real exorcist.”

        He’d hit the exorcist up for a donation.

        • Jon Atack

          how true! ‘How’d you like to be a Patron and donate all the body thetans you’ve caught?’

          • NOLAGirl

            ROFL Jon, I’m so glad that Scientology didn’t steal your sense of humor. It sure as hell didn’t steal your intelligence or your wit. Dave was a dumb ass to lose you, but I’m DAMN GLAD he did!! 🙂

            • Jon Atack

              I was very lucky. I was never on staff, so I was never subjected to the vicious humiliation that is the daily lot of so many victims of Hubworld. The two times that Sea Org people yelled at me, I yelled back (and neither of them KR’d me, can you believe?). Scn is learned helplessness, in psychological terms, and it takes a long time to recover. It is also constructed in a way that makes it almost impossible to recover without help, and so few of us understand that construction, though the path out is simple and usually relatively short. That the delusion of benefit lasts for so many years for those who believe they’ve escaped is the most terrifying aspect of the clut.

              Humour is the one true therapy – not the malicious, spiteful, hurting humour of so many former Dev-OTs – but the self-deprecating and self-fulfilling amusement at the plain silliness which is scn.

              As to Dave – he never had me. I left before he’d taken the reins. Hubbard was still in charge. Fortunately, I declined the invitation to go ‘over the rainbow’ and play in Ron’s band (‘thank you for listening…’). Maybe if I’d gone to La Quinta, I wouldn’t have been able to stand up to the clut. Almost no one else did, back when it was just me, Gerry, Lawrence, Bob Penny and a handful of others.

              Dave is a victim. He has a testosterone disorder, which makes him anti-social in the extreme. And he has no idea what he is actually doing. Though that is no reason not to stop him from harming others!

      • Jimmy3

        There was a time when I believed I was possessed by demons. And not by your run of the mill demons, no. One or more of the big ones, possibly Lucifer himself. I can only remember being in some strange bathroom, sobbing, contemplating life while foolishly trying to reason with the foreign evil that had invaded me. Why have you chosen my soul to attack? Am I so weak? Why me? Why? I must have fallen asleep still muttering questions at the demons. When I awoke on the bathroom floor the next day, all I could feel was pain, through and through, and I no longer recognized any part of my being as human. I was alive in a sense, but my humanity had surely been destroyed. It was only after several agonizing hours of further contemplation that the ibuprofen finally kicked in, and I began to feel a bit more like myself. It turns out I had gotten hammered and ate an entire Taco Bell Grande Box. I still think it counts as demonic possession.

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Oh my, I’ve been similarly possessed. Flashback:

          • Jimmy3

            It’s all starting to make sense… That’s the guy who sold me the Grande Box!

      • Jon Atack

        I spent time with the Anglican Church’s senior exorcist for South England. He was a charming man, and explained that for the most part, he simply referred people for the psychiatric care they needed. Lucifer himself was the bringer of light to mankind. And Muslims believe that Iblis – Satan – was sent away from God because he refused to bow down to Adam, insisting that he would only pay homage to God. That ‘Satan’ only appears twice in the Old Testament, but Christians divided him into a hierarchy of demons, unknown in the first few thousand years of the religion. Some are ancient gods – Behelzebub, for instance, is Jehovah’s brother, Baal Marduk, one of the 72 offspring of Ashera. But in terms of diabolic horror, you are right: Scientology is the opposite of true religion. It is opposed to compassion (no sympathy) or humility, the foundation of life affirming religions. Myself, I don’t believe in demons. Not outside of human form, at least.

        • Prim torturer

          The story you got from the Anglican Church’s exorcist mirrors similar stories from Catholic exorcists – that Lucifer refused to serve man, specifically the man Jesus Christ. “We have no bodies and we don’t die, we will not serve.” I’m a Roman Catholic, and Catholics have practiced exorcism since our founder did it. Every large diocese and many small ones have exorcists on staff and handle problems that come to them. A large percentage of them are referred to psychologists who deal with multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia and so on. A small percentage are real. I do believe in demons. It’s a teaching of my faith. But beyond that, I’ve studied exorcists and the stories they tell of what they have experienced during the rites cannot be explained by science. Levitation (the room must be cleared of moveable objects before a rite). Knowledge of deeply held secrets of those surrounding the exorcist and his past history. Knowledge of ancient or modern languages that the possessed never studied. Horror of blessed objects. All of these things are impossible, yet they happen. I was trained as a scientist – the rules of this world don’t apply to these matters and it goes completely against my training. But there it is.

          They also say Lucifer and Satan are separate demons, and that demons are only known by their functions – Greed, Lust, Murder, Anger, Violence, etc. If I were to guess, Scientology is run by the demons of Greed, murder and humiliation among many others. This is part of it’s fabric, it’s innermost structure and as such will never change. But I do believe they do everything in their power to keep Scientology running, protecting it, guiding it. I have cried many times listening to the horrors that Scientology’s poor victims have had to endure. The despair of their children, the price their parents will always pay for their choices. All they wanted to do was help. I pray that St. Michael will someday be given his freedom to fight and defeat them.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Oh Tory, it’s never dull around here on a Jon Atack day. I couldn’t get past your accidentally hilarious comment, “I thought I’d end up clearing Brazil…”

      I had this image of you at Carnival with a clipboard and personality tests. Cracked me up:)

      http://i.imgur.com/vBS8HKA.jpg?2%5B

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      JA: “In other words, Rathbun is saying that Scientology is a “monotheistic”
      religion, and Hubbard is its god”.
      Your response:
      “My view: I never, ever saw Hubbard as a “God” in any way…”

      I think you and Marty have very different views about God. Even the fact that Marty uses the small “g” (“its god”) and you use the capital “G” for the Judeo-Christian one-and-only God.

      For ill or good, Scientology today has made a god of Hubbard (or is in that process). Whether he thought he was or not, or presented himself as one or not, is a matter of legitimate speculation. But I agree with you that I cannot imagine that anyone, including the old charlatan himself, ever saw LRH as Yahweh, Elohim, I Am or anything like that.

      And may I add again how happy we all are to hear what you have to offer on subjects like this. It takes one who was “in” to explain much of this.

      • Jgg2012

        Scientology is like Jell-O. It’s no particular shape. “Oh, you are monotheistic? So are we”. “Oh, you are pantheistic–so are we!”

    • Chee Chalker

      You know what they say Tory…..God works in mysterious ways….

    • Jgg2012

      You know Tory, you can rejoin the Catholic Church today if you want to (and, vice versa for someone who is in the Church).

    • Rita Gregory

      I love it Tory! You got out of the way. Little did you know you would be put in the way….of scientology

  • exccla

    I remember that messanic b.s. starting earlier like in 1978 or 79. It was very hushsd up. I was at cc at the time. I could be wrong as the cult messed with my head back then. Gave them 20 years and $100,000 to fuck me up.

  • Baby

    Dodo stated: “Once upon a time, Hubbard would say – just kidding, if pressed hard enough about his tall tales.
    Since he wasn’t challenged enough about his lies, later on, he lost it and became a Buddha with body thetans.
    The End.”

    But Dodo you didn’t go far enough..

    ” AND NO ONE LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER! ” ( Until they Blew )

    • DodoTheLaser

      I approve this message.

      • Baby

        Ohhh I knew you would sweet friend.

  • USA MRIID

    Are you a Red-X defender flagging fraudulent postings on Craigs List?

    Helpful hint: Use the Tor Browser Pack to flag frauds, you can re-flag fraudulent ads every 12 minutes when Tor had re-wired your Tor circuits to CL’s servers, bypassing CL’s records which limit the number of times your IP address has flagged a fraudulent ad to 1, allowing you to re-flag repeatedly during the day with new virtual circuit IP source addresses.

  • Baby

    http://youtu.be/zcu3Ty4golY

    Howdy posted this early morning..and I’m afraid that some of you may have missed it.. It is a must see from beginning to end!

    • Sidney18511

      Thank you for re-posting this vid and thanks to the captain for finding this. I saw no difference between the moonies and the sclioons. This family was one of the lucky ones, and my heart breaks for all the families that lost their loved ones. Remember what she said “don’t ever give up”.
      Wonderful informative show.

      • Jgg2012

        Note that they deny disconnection, and want to be known by a different name, i.e. front groups, and they are partners in your marriage.

      • Baby

        Absolutely no difference to me either Sidney.. Yes I agree..so very lucky.

        ” Don’t Ever Give Up! ” Never!

    • Ruby

      23:25…. “The worst thing you can be in a mind controlled environment, in a cult, is you…”
      This is an excellent video.

      • Baby

        Chilling words Ruby.. ugh.. I couldn’t sleep last night and Howdy posted this ..So I thought , “Why Not..” Thank God I did.. It was so uplifting.

        I saved it. When I need a boost from all the horror stories that we know all to well here I will watch this again and again.

        I almost Hearsayed her name to see if she was still ( after her first comin on screen) so glad that I hung around until the end.. Amazing story..

  • Mark

    ++++RED-X REMINDER++++ Pierrot’s update number 5 has now appeared; Tampa seems to be very busy today (maybe Shortarse is in Florida?). If you have a spare moment, please use this link to flag the buggers and their rotten spam ads off Craigslist (just scroll up for earlier updates and the main list):

    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-107#post-2474790

  • Frodis73

    Hey guys. What is this Media Mayhem? TV? Radio? Pod? What time?

    • Juicer77

      YouTube Channel called The Lip TV or search Allison Hope Weiner. Media Mayhem has done some fascinating shows on the Co$. Also check our their Crime Time if you’re into trials and court doings. Some very good experts on there as well.

      ETA: watch out for a few cray cray shows on that channel, but the above two shows mentioned are solid. Ask our friendly proprietor, who has been on Media Mayhem before.

      • Frodis73

        Thanks J! I saw it on the tweet feed and it made it sound like it was something live but I couldn’t find it. I have seen the older eps with Tony and they are great.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    We in RTC hasten to point out that the Founder was a man and never said he was God. OTOH, David Miscavige. Now you’re talking Deity material, the real stuff of worship.

    The Founder never had, say, John Wayne praise him in public. This is quite unlike COB who had movie star Tom Cruise fawning all over him and practically pawing the Leader of Leaders in a somewhat embarrassing and unnatural manner on stage.

    And then of course, 12,000 people were trampled to death when COB opened the Super Power Building. Millions had come in hopes of seeing the Leader of Leaders because to even gaze upon COB’s physical form is to become an OTVIII by the sheer force of the Theta Power which COB transmits in and through his physical form. http://otviiiisgrrr8.com/2013/11/18/12000-people-trampled-to-death-at-flag-land-base/

    COB is truly the Divine Person incarnated and on a mission to build Ideal Orgs and a truly embracive form of Planetary Clearing that includes elevating Mr. Miscavige to the full status of God.

    Conversely, all the Founder ever did was to chain smoke Kools while lurching from one semicolon disaster to another. COB had to incarnate in order to impose order upon the Dev-T created by the Founder and bring Scientology to the highly refined and perfected state expressed in GAT II.

    http://otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/chairman-dave.png

    • Mark

      How come Shortarse’s wig has slipped?

    • Captain Howdy

      COB is Gob God

    • LITTLE FUCKING DAVE YOU COME INTO MY OFFICE RIGHT NOW YOUNG MAN !v @#$$%^&

      http://scientolipedia.org/w/images/2/20/LRH_film-3.jpg

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        Sir, please send all comm to COB through Pat Broeker.

        • @#$%^&*

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Dear Sir,

            Please destimulate from your incident.

            We in RTC remind you that this is a public forum and it is unseemly and Out KSW for you to publicly attack Mr. Miscavige, the ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion.

            As to your communication with COB: Sorry sir, but unless your despatches are routed through Pat Broeker then COB will be unable to receive them. This is per your direct order sir and we in RTC are obeying it absolutely as we obey absolutely all of your other orders.

            ML,

            RTC

            • Jgg2012

              COB, I know all the critical news about you is totally false, but still–shouldn’t you step aside for the good of the Church and the future of LRH’s mission? Hey, a Pope recently stepped aside, in the interest of the Catholic Church.

            • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

              You should be beaten from head to toe for your impudence towards Mr. Miscavige, the ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion.

              How dare you imply that COB’s leadership is anything less than perfect!

              COB will not step aside just because some elderly wog Pope stepped down due to a banking scandal in Rome.

              Mr. Miscavige has nothing to hide.

        • Jgg2012

          Where’s Shelly?

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I love the way he holds wee Davey’s lens.

      • Baby

        David Cassidy OMG Swoons and passes out.. Water Water..

        Wait that’s BM.. OOps I mean DM? Beer Beer!! PUKE

    • Jgg2012

      Hey COB, where is the great disseminator? I haven’t seen him at CC in a while.

  • Hello NAFC? You might want to have your lawyers check out David Holtz. He’s a long-time Narconon FSM, and doing business out of the Church of Scientology’s Fort Harrison Hotel…

    nevadadrugrehab.net David Holtz Drug Rehab that works 210 S Fort Harrison suite 768
    Clearwater Florida 33756 United States (760) 902-6119 (727) 467-5005 drugrehabthatworks@hotmail.com

    Hmm, now why does Nevada ring a bell…?

    • NOLAGirl

      May I copy your post w/screen name in an email to their attorneys?

      • Sure, although I pulled in 50 more of his domains, and I’ll be sifting those for more of them.

        Updated here this evening:
        http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Narconon_sites

        • NOLAGirl
          • These too:
            texas-drugrehab.com
            treatmentchoices.org

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              David Holtz, as an Individual, trademarked “Youth for Drug Free Florida” using Flag address again. What is this, I don’t even? There are a number of links when searching under his 760-902-6119 phone number he lists on his website.

              http://i.imgur.com/w2hrZvV.jpg?1
              [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HP5CYZa.jpg?2[/IMG]
              http://www.markhound.com/trademark/search/TiZYQ0K4X

            • Somehow I feel that David Holtz’s Long Bad Night is just beginning, starting with two Sea Org on his doorstep, inviting him to a Come As You Are, Right Now, Party.

            • Elar Aitch

              He deserves nothing less

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              They only need to hop on the elevator so yeah, shouldn’t take long.

            • I suspect that 210 S Fort Harrison suite 768 is a Narconon call center. Most of his other domains are to 708 S Prospect ave Clearwater.

              No matter, they’ll find him.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          He used that address on his drug rehab site? Damn.

        • Wow man, that’s a very interesting resource!

        • Updated, although there’s some junk that needs weeded out.

    • Jgg2012

      Because The Ham is suing them and they, um, claim no affiliation with the corporation that runs out of Clearwater, FL.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ Reminder +–+Reminder +–+ RED X ***
    Good evening and good Night
    So far it appears that they have done their Thursday push yesterday,
    today’s catch is not that great but they still need to be taken care of

    Today’s NEW additions #1 to #7 start here Including Boston Special :
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-107#post-2474683

    Scroll down to the newest if you have already flagged.

    The Regional List and previous daily lists
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    Ty Obs

    • Sherbet

      Boston’s been beaned. Bap bap.

  • Ed Chan

    “In my father’s private circle,” Ron Jr explains, “there were
    lots of mistresses. When I was younger, I participated in
    private orgies with him and three or four other women. His
    theory was that one has to open or crack a woman’s soul in order
    for the satanic power to pour through it and into him. It got
    kind of far out, culminating in a variety of sex acts. Dad also
    had an incredibly violent temper. He was into S & M and would
    beat his mistresses and shoot them full of drugs.”

    “… Also I’ve got to complete this by saying that he thought of
    himself as the Beast 666 Incarnate.” Interviewer: “The devil?”
    Ron Jr: “Yes. Aleister Crowley thought of himself as such. And
    when Crowley died in 1947 my father then decided that he should
    wear the cloak of the beast; and become the most powerful being
    in the universe.”
    http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/gormez.txt

  • nottrue

    Nancy Cartwright is God…1:30 ……..

    http://youtu.be/mr7N4nGe7pc

    • Sydjazz

      Oh deary dear. Oh i can’t click but i wanna.

    • Sydjazz

      Oh that was scary

  • Jo

    Scientology, hope that you choke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzhepWIImj4

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

      Fuck you Scientology!

  • Eugene K

    Oh… John and his dumb conspiracy theories about how tech really works. Anyone who experienced a genuine audition session knows that it’s not just some “euphoria” and “dopamine.” But there may be a sense of euphoria when you experience relief from something you may have been struggling with for years and coming to new realizations.

    There is indeed a lot in Scientology that can make it a self-defeating practice overall, but it doesn’t cancel out the fact that some things can produce genuine results and should not be disregarded and invalidated with complex theories and misleading labels such as “hypnosis.”

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Where and the hell have you been Gene?
      I have missed you. Sort of.

      • Eugene K

        I have been working on my next project of developing an alternative practice to Scientology.

        I’m glad you like stool softeners and I am sorry to hear that you have that problem.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Haha. I don’t Gene. You did not listen very well.
          How is that alternative project coming? Glad to hear you are off the Hubbard sauce though.

          • Eugene K

            What is it with you and laxatives? You know there is also a procedure for that called enema. Maybe that’s what you really need for some thorough cleansing.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              LOL…………Now Gene, don’t be like that. Did you have a bad day?
              Here I am being nice to you and you are being cheeky.
              Don’t be a hater!
              You are too good for that 😉

            • Eugene K

              You are the one who brought up the problem. I am simply trying to help you out with some alternative solutions. 🙂

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              🙂 Thanks Gene. You are such a sweetie to try to help.
              I always heard that “Scientology could help you with that”.

            • Eugene K

              Except I wasn’t offering you Scientology… 😉

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              🙂 Thanks Gene. You are such a sweetie to try to help. (Insert weird raised eyebrow icon here)

              I always heard that “Scientology could help you with that”.

              Edit: Ok……gotta go to bed……..Kitty is IN CHARGE.

              You! Me!………..More later my friend

        • Jimmy3
      • Sydjazz

        Lol bury

    • nottrue

      Yeah it does get those ichy Body Thetans off

      • Eugene K

        You may want to put it in your own “HCOB” and copyright it just in case 😉

        • Baby

          The Mile High Club is That a way ————————————————————————–>

          Turn Left at the Chain Locker on the curb..Watch out for the Oily cyst .. and then hang a sharp who gives a shit.

          • Sydjazz

            Woah baby your on fire lol

            • Baby

              Oh Kitty I learned from the best .. The Bunker Club! xox Curtsies

    • Baby

      Tony Said that we had to be nice to Trolls.. I don’t know why.. but I am NOT sorry I blew smoke it your eyes! So there!

      • Eugene K

        You are delusional… must be an ex-Scientologist I’m guessing…

        • Baby

          Nah.. A Bunkeroooooooooooooooo ..

        • i-Betty

          Erm…? 😛

      • Sydjazz

        Hi baby i think the term is blow smoke in your arse lol. Here is the original meaning. Thought you might need a giggle http://youtu.be/6uEJbwGYaDs

        • Baby

          Hahahahah Yes.. I should have said that Kitty..duh Next time!

          • Vaquera

            An aside; All is good with you, Baby? I’ve been following comments when I can, but not posting as frequently as in the past year.

            • Baby

              I wonder where ya been Texas.. Lurking is good..although we miss you..but Life is important! So come when you can..and just enjoy..

              I’m hanging in! xo me

    • Sir_Real

      *refresh*

  • aegerprimo

    July edition to my Co$ bad press colletion is up at all the forums! I collect all the news on the available on the internet, written press, radio and TV monthly. Select your favorite forum to view the list. (WWP website is down right now, check back tomorrow)

    Co$ Bad Press Collection – 2014 – JULY

    ESMB – http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?34807-Co-Bad-Press-Collection-2014&p=951458&viewfull=1#post951458

    OCMB – http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=721475#p721475

    RFTTP – http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php/topic,12740.msg34442.html#msg34442

    ESK – http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11471&p=35015#p35015

    • aegerprimo

      I work hard on this list every month, so please check it out, it will be worth it! All the Co$ news in one location…. just sayin’

      • Frodis73

        It is! I always find a few things I’ve missed. Very valuable history & it’s great you take the time to do it.

      • Baby

        Thank you aeger! This is History! Absolute Historical facts regarding the End of the Cult as we know it!

      • Jimmy3

        Reading the comments here you find these types of articles linked everyday, but seeing them all compiled into a big list is impressive. There are many more than I realized, and many that I’ve missed. Thanks for doing this.

    • aquaclara

      Thanks so much, Aegerprimo. This is a huge undertaking,and so much fun to look through. I’ve referred a few friends here,too.

    • Aslansown

      Wow! That’s great! You obviously spent a great deal of time on it. Thanks.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Good list, thanks! You might also want to check this out:

      http://www.xenu-directory.net/webnews.php

      • aegerprimo

        Thank you adding the link to this excellent page/resource. I use it to help compile the monthly lists I put at the forums. The thing to keep in mind about the xenu-directory page though – the articles stay on the queue for about 3 days. Some of the links are dead links as well. I sift though all of this daily to compile the monthly lists at my Co$ Bad Press threads.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      This is all kinds of awesome!
      Wonderful job.

  • In 2008 or 2009, I had a South East Asian refugee student from an animist culture tell his counselor that he was a god-like entity that responsible for the deaths of the Iraq war. She told his parents he might be suffering from schizophrenia and that she could hook them up with mental health services. The refused, pulled him from school (he was over 18) and apprenticed him to a local shaman. I still worry about that community and probably always will. Lovable backward f*cks.

  • When I got involved in 1973 in Austin I read the organizational chart and saw that Hubbard called himself “Source.” Source of what, I asked? “Well… everything,” some knucklehead told me. (Probably Whit Whitford, who ran the place and was a dead ringer for Hubbard.) Then I read the End Phenomena of OT8 at the time – Cause Over Life – on the “grade chart” (all the training and auditing levels). “Meaning you can raise the dead?” I asked. “Well, what does it say?” I was told. Never got a straight answer. Elwrong was highly practiced at getting you to believe that the latest carrot was always the road to the great truths that only he possessed. Then the only time I saw him, he banged his head on the roof of a car while driving fast past the Wilcox Hotel CC berthing one night (didn’t want to be seen, hit a dip in the road and the car bounced). There went my illusions. (Nice about the Matteya alteration, Jon, never heard that one. I told a friend of mine who guards the Dalai Lama about that – he got a good laugh about it.)

    • Vaquera

      Though there is no coorolation (other than being a cult/sect), everytime I read or hear of lrh being “source,” I can’t help but think of Father Yod and the Source Family.

      • I think of Elwrong now as Sauce. Explanation: He was cremated, ashes scattered on the Pacific, probably swept into the mouth of a balleen whale, thus emerging as whale shit, that sank to the bottom. Sauce: Lafayette Ronald Hubbard.

        • Vaquera

          ^^^^^^^

    • Jon Atack

      Alphia Hart, who put 8.80 together and then founded the superb Aberree, said that Hub ought to label his half-yearly ‘This is It!’ with the date. Check out http://www.aberree.com/people/alphia-hart.html We must get together and swap stories, Skip. I still have ten more for every one I’ve published. Scn will be a whole genre of fiction, once the phobia dies down.

      • I got a big kick out of the Aberree particularly because he published it in Oklahoma. Boy, were there ever outspoken personalities back in those days who’d experienced how full of shit Hubbard could be. I remember Anton James telling me that it all turned south for him and others when Elwrong came up with the Sea Org contract – before that it had been one big voluntary adventure. Guess that’s when the scoundrel first figured he could really pull off a slave empire. We really should convene, Jon. You’ve put a smile on my face ever since the day my ex-wife told me the story of donning a disguise to go meet you.

      • (I replied to this once but it seems to have gotten lost.) What I loved about the Aberree was that it was published out of Oklahoma, which I found oddly hilarious (being from north Texas). People back in those days sure had opinions they didn’t mind sharing because they’d known Elwrong personally and knew how full of shit he could be. I’m reminded of Anton James telling me how when Blubbard came up with the Sea Org contract he wanted out – before then it had been one big long voluntary adventure for Anton. I figure the drug addict probably figured he could finally have the slave empire he dreamed about. Love to get together any time, Jon. I still chuckle every time I think of how my ex-wife told me about putting on a disguise and evading people tailing her on the way to go meet you.

  • Sydjazz

    I would have thought yes to being a god. Really good read. So auditing is kind of like a drug? You get a high (win) and have to keep going back for more and each time the drug gets more expensive.

  • Captain Howdy

    Sing it Ron and GOB!..much better anthem than “We Stand Tall”

    http://youtu.be/uTZBG1-Sfto

  • i-Betty

    This has probably been hashed over further down the comments but I’m behind the times today and only just read that Kirstie Alley has ‘disconnected’ from Maxim Chmerkovskiy (DWTS) because of his friendship with Leah. I love that he just came out with that – she’ll be hopping mad.

    The Dlisted version of events cracked me up (F5):

    • Aslansown

      It’s particularly funny because she went after Leah so much and kept saying there’s no “shunning” and anybody can talk to anyone who’s left the church (on a radio show, I think). Liar, liar, pants on fire.

      • i-Betty

        Ooh, you’ve reminded me to look for Observer’s pants on fire shoop 🙂

        • Aslansown

          Yes! Would love to see it again.

    • DodoTheLaser

      This is too funny and yet so true!

  • Zana

    Thank you, Jon Atack. This is the best description I have ever read of what is actually happening here. Why people come back. Why they get addicted to this stuff. This is brilliant. And thank you, Tony.

  • rom661

    Sort of off topic but for some reason the article, and Tony’s FB post regarding it made my mind wander in this direction. I have to give Hubbard credit for a couple of things. He was incredibly shrewd. Not raw, pure intelligence, but shrewd and brilliant at manipulation. I suppose that credit may not be the right word for that. However, the most striking thing for me is his incredible output of writings and oversight, both before and during Scientology. He could and did produce prodigious amounts of material. The value and validity of that output is regarded by those here, including myself, as manipulative, delusional, etc., but there was a hell of a lot of it.

    I believe there is an explanation for at least part of that. This is based largely on “The Barefaced Messiah”, but also on other accounts, non–Scientology ones, of his life. I think it is very likely he was severely bipolar. He would produce massive amounts during his manic phases, then go into to depression and paranoia. We will leave the sociopath tendencies for another amateur evaluation….

  • pronoia

    I always love a Jon Attack post. He does not dissent or avoid the the weeds!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Tony might post this tomorrow, but night shift can watch it now.

    Scientology Celebrity Truth and Lies with Tony Ortega

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC937B599FD2B8241&v=Hng2ts2g6wA

    • Qbird

      nice – thanks Dodo – folks were talking about this down thread & wanting a link.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Glad to help, Q. Watching it right now. Liking it a lot so far.

        • OliveThomas

          Excellent interview – thank you, Tony! And thank you for posting it, Dodo

    • Jimmy3

      This feels a bit like squirreling the Bunker tech, but I’m going to risk being banned and watch it now. Thanks Dodo.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Welcome, Jimmy. Tony can send me to the Bunker’s ethics anytime. I will happily oblige.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Just finished watching it. Great interview! Watch it and see for yourself.
      Thank you, Allison Hope Weiner. Thank you, Tony Ortega.
      You guys should do it more often. Please and thank you!

      • Jimmy3

        Yes, I enjoyed that. I like Allison Hope Weiner, she seems to know what’s up. And it’s always great to hear Tony recap everything you need to know right off the top of his head. Good show.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Ditto. Allison is very smart and charming. I hope she is posting here on occasion.
          And if not, I wish she will some day.

    • valshifter

      well detailed and wide scope coverage on what is going on with the cult.

      • DodoTheLaser

        You described it perfectly, Val. Plus, Tony’s wise beard.

    • jeff

      The Lip is how I found the Bunker about 11 months ago….I had to replay her saying Tony Ortega dot org three times before I got what she was saying. The only bad thing was in that Roseanne Barr thing, she didn’t really challenge that Scilon that was on and let Roseanne say that LRH was brilliant…Bit, in general I really like her. Tony was great in this interview.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Thanks for joining the fringes of the internet, Jeff.

    • Espiando

      Now that I finally have my own office (after a year of them promising me one), it’s a nice thing to be on the Night Shift, cosseted in my little work womb, listening to this while doing paperwork. Unfortunately, I just did a freeze on the video to write this, and since I can’t do screen shots, I’ll have to describe: Allison has a “Now I know why they call it Silent But Deadly” look on her face, while Tony’s just had a prefrontal lobotomy.

      The shit I think about at three in the morning…

      • DodoTheLaser

        Edit: Haha! Never mind. I get it. I paused the vid too a few times.

        Congrats on your own office, Espi! I hope you have a nice chair, desk, computer and a good view outside the window! Not sure if I understood the part about Allison and Tony… Sorry, English is my 2nd language and I am slow at times. Care to extrapolate?

        • Espiando

          Allison looks like she just smelled a fart that could peel paint. Tony looks like a mental patient who’s just had part of his brain removed. The freeze frame is at 11:42.

          • DodoTheLaser

            I am glad you don’t work for the Freedumb Mag.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ Reminder +–+Reminder +–+ RED X ***
    Good morning Europe and Night Owls
    Last evening Addition #8:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-107#post-2474957

    Yesterday including Boston and Midwest promo:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-107#post-2474683

    The Regional List and previous daily lists
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty Ap

  • DodoTheLaser

    Kind of off topic. Someone on fb, who is on the fence, posted this CCHR type photo drivel (refresh).
    Here’s my reply/comment: “I am not a fan of either, but how this “statistic” would look like, if heroin and cocaine were legal? Also, prescription drugs saved a lot of lives. Heroin and cocaine – not so much.
    Absolutism is irresponsible. Food for thought.” What would you say to that?

    • 0tessa

      I think the statement by Scientology is (as usual) a blatant lie.
      It is agitprop.

      • DodoTheLaser

        They should stick with pics like this one instead (refresh).

  • Gordon Freeman

    All Hubbard did was put a stupid, I mean incredibly stupid, sci-fi story on top of what he gleaned about Satanism and the OTO from Jack Parsons, then packaged it up neatly and sold it to millions of gullible shills. Look at that OT8 stuff – “I’m the Antichrist, sent here to liberate you all!” now compare and contrast with LaVeyan Satanism and Crowley’s stuff. NOT. MUCH. DIFFERENCE. Period.