SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

Scientology Heresy: Jon Atack on L. Ron Hubbard’s Debt to Psychiatry

PsychoanalysisJon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and on Saturdays he’s helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

Jon, we have a feeling you’re going to get us in a lot of trouble this week. You’ve been unearthing some real gems for us recently, but in this investigation, you’ve found some connections in the early writings of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard that suggest he owes a greater debt to some psychiatric techniques than his followers might like to admit. We have a feeling today’s comment section is going to be lively!

So what did you find, Jon?

JON: Science of Survival (1951) was the first Hubbard book that I read. It remains the best written of his books, perhaps because it was compiled by Richard de Mille. I was baffled from the first by the term narco-synthesis, which is mentioned briefly and with little explanation. It wasn’t in my two-volume Oxford dictionary. Hubbard said “a pre-clear must never be audited under sedation” and added “as in narco-synthesis.” (Book 1, p.162). In Book 2, he uses the term again, while talking about US government use of “pain-drug-hypnosis.” (pp.222-223). There is an earlier, brief mention in Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health (1950). I knew that it meant drug-assisted therapy, but I did not resolve the full meaning of this strange term until long after I’d left the cult.

Part of my search was through the Research and Discovery volumes — the first edition, before they were edited to remove Hubbard’s boasts about his extensive drug use. Hubbard was evidently aware of the origin of narco-synthesis.

I found the first full description in an obscure book, which came highly recommended by Hubbard, in an even more obscure lecture (R&D2, p.12). The book, Hypnotism Comes of Age, was written by Wolfe and Rosenthal, and it described narco-synthesis and its origins: “The doctors call this new technique narco-synthesis, because, while under the hypnosis, the soldier patient re-experiences the shocking occurrence that caused his breakdown — his traumatic episode — and then reincorporates the memory thus obtained.” (p.150). The text also speaks of the patient being asked to count backwards until in trance. The same practice is found in Book One Dianetics — although Hubbard was less than candid about the trance state it can produce.

During the Second World War, both U.S. and British psychiatrists were experimenting with a form of psychotherapy that induced hypnotic states through the use of drugs. Dr William Sargant described his work on soldiers with “battle neurosis” or “combat fatigue” in his seminal Battle for the Mind, in 1957 (incidentally, Sargant was considered the UK’s number one SP, before I inherited that title. Hubbard had a copy of this book in his library at the Founding Church, in Washington, DC). Doctors Roy Grinker and John Spiegel had published an account of their work in 1945, under the title Men under Stress. Barbiturates and sodium pentothal were used in this work, which also relied upon Pavlov’s discovery of conditioned responses and Freudian concepts of the unconscious mind and repression. Grinker and Spiegel called their work “narco-synthesis,” because it used narcotic sedation to assist the patient to rebuild or “synthesize” the personality.

As with Dianetics, in narco-synthesis the patient was required to “abreact” or re-experience traumatic events. Hubbard was familiar with this work; not only did he recommend Hypnotism Comes of Age, but he also showed more direct knowledge: “One will find regression if one treats soldiers who have been unlucky enough to undergo narcosynthesis … He was merely sick before, but now he is crazy … Anything which is touched in narcosynthesis is apt to be restimulated permanently.” (R&D1, p.333f). Hubbard even suggested the headline “Man released from Veteran’s Hospital on Tuesday kills wife on Thursday!” (ibid, p.334).

It seems eminently possible that Hubbard encountered narco-synthesis, or at least discussion of it, during his stay at Oakland Naval Hospital in 1945. It was intriguing military psychiatrists throughout the English-speaking world. Hubbard was also taking phenobarbital (see R&D, p.125), at the very time that he claimed to have used abreactive therapy to cure his imaginary war wounds. Hubbard, indeed, claimed to have treated schizophrenics with narco-synthesis (D:MSMH, p.123f), as well as doing further drug hypnotism on cases which had already been “cured” by narco-synthesis (Evolution of a Science, p.24). In a lecture given a few weeks after publication of this article, Hubbard warned against the practice of narco-synthesis (R&D1, p.123; see also D:MSMH, p.390 drug hypnotism is “dianetically illegal”). However, a few days after this lecture, Hubbard said “it is allowable … to produce a more accessible condition by amnesia trance, and even by drugs” (R&D1, p.184). In one of his earliest lectures, Hubbard had said, “Narco-synthesis and other drug therapies have some slight use in Dianetics” (ibid, p.8; see also p.48).

In fact, Hubbard’s alleged research not only included decades of “straight hypnosis,” he also gives us to believe that his work with narcosynthesis was extensive: “[tests] have been made on people who could be hypnotized and people who could not but were drugged. They brought forth valuable data for dianetics.” (D:MSMH, p.57). Further, “one day, a multi-valent patient, under drugs, went back to his birth” (ibid, p.126). This takes on a particular significance, because it was the first time that Hubbard encountered the supposed “birth engram.”

Most important, it is narcosynthesis which led to the very discovery of the engram: “The author is well aware that many physicians, in using narco-synthesis, have occasionally accidentally entered ‘unconscious’ periods.” (D:MSMH, p.117, footnote).

Narcosynthesis sought to “abreact” painful memories, as Sargant said, “Freud had found that ‘affectless memories, memories without any release of emotion,” [‘charge’ to both Freud and Hubbard] were almost useless. Unless a doctor could get his patient to relieve the emotions originally associated with a repressed experience that had generated a neurosis, the mere fact of his remembering the experience would not constitute a cure. Sadler consequently defined abreaction as “a process of reviving the memory of a repressed unpleasant experience and expressing in speech and action the emotions related to it, thereby relieving the personality of its influence. In World War I, much the same abreactive treatment had been successfully used, but for the most part with hypnotism not drugs.” (Battle for the Mind, p.54)

Narcosynthesis was largely used on personnel suffering from what is now called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The practice fell out of favor because it was held to be inapplicable outside the stresses of war. After some spectacular results with injured US pilots in North Africa, Grinker and Spiegel found no peacetime application for the technique. It worked on those who had been traumatically terrified, but that was it. Apart from his few, oblique references, Hubbard completely failed to acknowledge the work of these psychiatrists, which was fundamental to his own Dianetics. Indeed, one of his “broad generalities” would be that all psychiatrists are “suppressive persons” and a part of the galactic conspiracy to enslave the souls of all sentient beings. But, as he pointed out, “The criminal accuses others of things he himself is doing.”

 
——————–

Geir Isene on David Miscavige, Creative Marketing Genius

Another fun and informative video from Karen de la Carriere, J. Swift, and Angry Gay Pope!

 

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on September 7, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

Share Button
  • DodoTheLaser

    Inb4 Blue Velvet refs. Thank you Jon.

    • 1subgenius

      I gave you an up, but I have no idea what you mean. But I’m OK with that.

      • marti

        It looks like Isabella Rossellini.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          It is.

    • GlibWog

      Dodo beautiful.. I too am confused, but if it means something to you it means something to us.

  • Nevermore

    Hublard is twistier than a very twisty thing. But it’s a good thing that all his lies, thefts and deceptions are being dragged out into the sunlight. Hopefully, there’s something there that will encourage some blowing among the faithful, as it lets them track the ongoing lies and deceptions being carried out by their {religion} right from its inception..

  • 1subgenius

    Isene is really a sharp guy.

  • Eivol Ekdal

    could the one person who went back to his birth be his own son Nibs…..(Link to video at 19:12)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A9wz7I6sOX0#t=1155

    • GlibWog

      Hmmmm.. OMG Eivol I went to far and got Hubs voice..errrrrrrrgh and Ugh..

      • Eivol Ekdal

        sorry, too early?

    • Nevermore

      Have you noticed how freaky El Loon looks when he’s speaking? Like those toons where only the mouth moves and the rest of the face doesn’t??

    • grundoon

      “could the one person who went back to his birth be…”
      After telling so many tall tales, why would L. Ron Hubbard tell something true just this once? Most likely there was no such person. Ron is mocking it all up.

  • 1subgenius

    Leah on Ellen, Scientology zinger

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcFlQw3jbLg

    • GlibWog

      Ohhh Love it sub! Zing haha Leah looks fabulous… and happy

      • 1subgenius

        Yes she does. And has a great sense of humor. I thought Ellen’s parting comment was especially sincere.

    • tetloj

      Waiting for the Kirsty hate tweets…

      • Phil McKraken

        Dang, Ellen got fairly specific in her dig at Kristy, there at the end. Here’s hoping that the devils of Kirsty’s worser nature prevail.

        • Nevermore

          I’ve recommended the show to Krustie – as usual, she’s ignored me. I am hurt. 🙁

  • GlibWog

    I am going to get blasted by so many I can’t believe I am saying this..OK..I’ll say it..
    Geir.. You are an expert your words are from one who has been in.. I am a nobody.. ( well, I am a somebody) but am a mere Wog..

    ***I disagree with you on one aspect. I don’t believe that DM believes in Tech, Scientology or Hubs at this point..
    He did at one time, but now it’s all about the $ and Power. *****

    He is allowed on the Web. He has read about LRH’s lies and BS. He has absolutely no respect for him.

    • GlibWog

      I am going to bed…Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

      If I am going to be kicked out of the bunker for being sooo Glib to Geir just let me know and I’ll pack my bags. Nice knowing all of you.. xo Glibby

      • monkeyknickers

        Naahhh you ain’t getting kicked out. 🙂 You know how many times I’ve annoyed Anthony at this point? A LOT.

        Also know what else, glibs??

        Adherence to one ideology only means we’re about to start forming large crowds in public squares and raising our hands in the air like assholes while people we love are turned into lamp shades.

        Dissent is awesome.

        Unless of course it’s something *I* don’t agree with, in which case I’ll have to come find you and put you in a vat of boiling oil or whatever.

        JUST KIDDING.

        (well . . . . just kidding if you don’t recycle and are kind to animals. In which case – I’ll heat up some nice extra virgin olive oil and meet you at the parapet.)

        🙂

        • GlibWog

          HHHahha Just woke up.. Just crashed… OOOH absolutely Rescue Dogs Only and Recycle like it’s my job!

          I’ve never gone along with something to be popular.. So it looks like I’m in the right place!

      • Nevermore

        Yeah, nice try, put the bag down and get back in here!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Exactly….many have tried much harder to get banned….they have all failed.
          We are equal opportunity offenders around here.

          • ziontologist

            Are you threatening me?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Lol

            • ziontologist

              Bury. The. Nuts!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Are you squirreling my tech?

            • ziontologist

              A squirrel trying to get a nut? With your tech? I am not worthy!

        • GlibWog

          OH Yay… I felt like Gretal without Hansel… I’ll put my little bread pieces back.. Yippie

      • villagedianne

        Oh stop it now. No one is kicking anybody out.

        • GlibWog

          well I had my little hobo bag on my stick all ready to hit the RR tracks hitchin a ride to Clearwater.. I’ll unpack thanks Di

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            We’re still expecting you in Clearwater. You don’t wanna miss the big show do ya?

            • GlibWog

              Hey Hub .. OK.. I want to get details. Am I being to paranoid to get an e mail to write to Hole..

              Yes.. I want to be there.. I am renting a car! (hahhhahhahaha ) So I have been snooping around for a private email. What do you think?

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Yeah, rental is good. No way to track you. But really, they are so busy with legal issues and big fish, I don’t think you’ve got anything to worry about.

            • GlibWog

              You know that is exactly what I thought too..

              They are going to be going nuts with the sign in system that MR outlined ..OMG..hhahaha heads will roll.. What a mess..

              We’ll see.. You didn’t answer me about the e mail..

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              If you’re worried, just make a fake email somewhere with bogus info. Hole is safe, she won’t let your info out.

            • GlibWog

              Oh shit I wasn’t worried about HOLE

              Not one little bit… OK.. OFF to make fake e mail..ha..

              ( Thanks.. I can NOT wait to meet you guys.. It’s still on? Like Donkey Kong? )

            • GlibWog

              yay.. I just sent her an e mail ..

    • Eclipse-girl

      I agree with you Glib.

    • Sidney18511

      I agree with ya Gliby. The dude doesn’t even indulge in auditing for himself. He knows it’s bull and I’m sure that the ONLY reading he does that has anything to do with the COS is reading his bank statements.

      • villagedianne

        I have not seen the video yet, slow internet connection today. But I think a case can be made that Miscavige does not want to be audited because he does not want to reveal his secrets and his bad deeds. He might believe in the “all powerful” e-meter’s ability to detect lies.

        • WildaBeast

          I agree with you, dianne. I think Miscavige is the kind of person who believes everyone is as vile as he is, and so if he laughs at others’ files, they’d laugh at his. I also think he’s terrified of people knowing anything that goes on in his head, let alone having it recorded. Miscavige might well believe that the e-meter, at least, works well enough that he can’t risk lying to it. Then too, I think he tells himself that it wouldn’t be appropriate for him to be audited by a mere underling.
          But I’m also with Missionary Kid on this one. It doesn’t matter if the Tiny Tyrant believes or not. He’s hurt just as many people either way, and has acted so egregiously that, if he doesn’t understand the moral awfulness of what he did, he must be truly insane.

          • Robert Eckert

            Yet we were told in the Rathbun affidavit, and Marc Headley independently confirmed, that he has tape recorders following him around so all his words can be transcribed.

            • WildaBeast

              All his orders. All the abuse he spews into the air around him. What is constantly transcribed is his public persona – and he loves and cherishes and builds up and fights for the dominance of that persona. Auditing, from what I understand, digs at the things underneath the face one shows to the world. In that it is like analysis, if in no other way. What I think DM fears is the revelation of anything beneath the face he shows to the world.

        • Truthiwant

          Good point.

      • GlibWog

        Well Thank you Sidney and all.. Absolutely.. No auditing.. What’s His Level? Can you imagine someone Sec Checkin him? haha

        I think he Ridicules Hubs any chance he gets.. and I believe that’s why he hates the Indies so much is because they are worshiping Hubs NOT HIM.

      • grundoon

        The auditor controls the session and gives “auditing commands.” The PC complies. David Miscavige never puts himself in the position of complying to another person’s commands.

    • Truthiwant

      I agree with you, GlibWog. I’m surprised that Geir Isene said that. He is trying to make the whole thing sound far too simple. I don’t even agree with what he says about Miscavige being a marketing genius.

      Miscavige undersood one thing about Scientology very early on and it was that with this ‘pseudo religion’ you could control people and con them in to believing anything. This, he learnt from his teacher, Hubbard, and he has been playing this scam for the last 27 years knowing only too well that Scientology is a swindle.

      He inherited an enormous flock of brainwashed people when Hubbard died and because of this he knew he could sell them anything. Except that this is not quite true, because most of this flock have left Scientology now. He still manages to repackage Hubbard’s words to the remaining brainwashed flock, but I would hardly call that creative marketing genius.

      • Mark

        Or else Miss Cabbage is a prime example of cognitive dissonance.

      • Sidney18511

        I think what you said about DM is on the ball truthiwant. I also believe that he looks down on his followers and is discusted by how foolish and easily lead they all are. If he wasn’t a cult leader he would make a wonderful sadist.

        • villagedianne

          Yes. I think Miscavige despises the people he is able to control.

        • Missionary Kid

          He is a sadist.

      • Vistaril

        I don’t even agree with what he says about Miscavige being a marketing genius.

        Yeah, me too. What I think Geir has overlooked is that Miscavige is simply following the formula laid down by L Ron Hubbard who was constantly re-packaging his mindfuck as “new, improved, 100% pure”. L Ron Hubbard had no choice because people relatively quickly realised Scientollgy was a scam, plus he was driven by a need to “to make money, make more money and make other people produce so as to make more money”. If anything, it was L Ron Hubbard who was the marketing genius – assuming, of course, that having a troop of OSA goons and a battalion of mind-fucked auditors to enforce sales can accurately be described as “marketing”.

      • Missionary Kid

        See my answer to Glib. Anyone who can continue to sell and make money off an inherently defective produce is a genius. An evil genius, but a genius just the same. The proof is in the fact that he’s making any money at all.

        • Truthiwant

          Evil, yes. Genius, no. An able person that saw how to make money out of a scam and sell it to a flock of sheep, including me, yes. I reserve the word ‘genius’ for other people.

          • Missionary Kid

            I’m comfortable with that. I take it that you wish to attach something
            positive to genius. The fact that he was able to take as much money for
            as long as he did, speaks to his craftiness, if not genius.

            • Truthiwant

              I feel it is a misuse of the word ‘genius’. As you say, I personally prefer to use this word when it is associated with something positive. I feel that when the word is used regarding Miscavige, it holds a certain idea of potential admiration towards him or a certain idea of respect that he has managed to con so many people and this, of course, is not what any body wants to convey using this word.

            • Missionary Kid

              The problem with LRH and $cientology is that there is only one definition accepted.

              I have no admiration for LRH or DM or their products. Genius to me is pretty much value neutral, only meaning that a certain type of ability is involved, whether good or bad. When I add the word evil to it, it is definitely bad.

              DM inherited an essentially corrupt and evil system. The fact that he’s been able to KSW for so long, in spite of his natural tendency for footbullets speaks to some sort of ability.

              The fact of Stalin or Mao had the ability to stay in power as long as they did would be an example of evil genius. I’m willing to use the word genius attached to their actions, but only attached to the word evil. I take it you would not. That’s fine with me.

              I’m not insisting that you accept my personal definition, but to just understand what I mean.

            • Truthiwant

              I was going to say that if it were attached to a word like evil then the word would take on a slightly different meaning.

              It is the way that Gere Isene uses the word genius that gives the idea that he has admiration for Miscavige. That, I find, is VERY creepy.

            • Missionary Kid

              I didn’t take it that way. In the context of what Gere was saying, I took it to mean that the fact that DM was able to keep Co$ going as long as it has, and to continue to suck money out of it, in spite of being a basically defective product, is amazing.

              That is evil genius. Perhaps a lesser or better educated person would have changed the tech, but DM danced with who he came to the dance with. He’s an idiot savant in those terms.

            • Truthiwant

              I might be wrong, but I’m not convinced. From Miscavige believing in LRH to the witch hunt. It’s too simple and there is much more going on behind the scenes. The interview is interesting but incomplete.

            • Missionary Kid

              Of course it’s incomplete. It’s just a data point, and one person’s opinion. The only place there are absolutes are in the minds of clams, and even then, they change.

            • ze moo

              Nope, DM is just Stalin to Lroons Lenin. The only ‘original’ idea DM gave $cientology is the ‘Ideal mOrg’. Adding a Taj Mahal to a pile of crap, is still a pile of crap. It doesn’t take a genius to repackage the same old turd with ‘new and improved’ on the label.

            • Missionary Kid

              A person doesn’t, in my opinion, have to have a more or less original philosophy. Stalin didn’t as far a s Communism went, but he stayed in power for a long time, and only relinquished it on his death.

              That was an evil accomplishment, but it was a difficult one, because it was essentially a very flawed system, and for that I call him an evil genius.

              I agree Stalin repackaged a pile of crap, and forced it to work, but he did it far longer than Lenin could ever have done. As much as I hate what Stalin did, it was a remarkable accomplishment. I don’t admire him or DM for what they’ve done, but I still think it’s remarkable, especially given the circumstances of DM’s takeover.

            • grundoon

              Remarkable, yes. Genius, no.

            • Missionary Kid

              That’s fine with me. I really have lost the desire to quibble over details about the asshole. Gere’s is just one opinion among many, and I was trying to put forth how I read him. 🙂 Hail Xenu.

      • GlibWog

        Truth.. OK.. I woke up and expected a lot of down votes..because I have such respect for those who have been in. I am just an obsessed lurker who is also very supportive of the Antiscn in my own way.

        So to criticize Geir just was difficult for me.. but it didn’t make any sense to me. I’ve been calling Tator Tot an Asshole.. He puts him up on a Pedestal blowin smoke up his ass..

        It was just not what I expected.. As I said in an earlier thread EVIL Sociopath that has ruined the lives of so many.. Bodies laying in the wake…

        Trumps genius …anytime.

        • Truthiwant

          So do I respect people that have been ‘in’.
          There are many people that have broken away from Scientology and although this makes me happy, there are some that have things to answer for. Rathbun obviously comes to mind but there are some ‘lesser’ people also that have been not too ethical.

          Isene is probably a good guy. He is still a believer in some of Hubbard’s writings and when I see or read him, this comes across. There is a lot of scientologese when he talks. This confuses me to what he is trying to say.

          I was ‘in’ for many years and was definitely brainwashed by them. However, I am lucky in that I don’t have to answer to anything for the time I was ‘in’. I never talked about Scientology to my friends or clients and I never ‘brought someone in’ during those years. Actually, I never even sold a book during all that time. Thank goodness. I would hate to have to think that I was the cause for ruining someone else.

          Below there is a link to some short articles that I have written. One is ‘Leaving Scientology’ and the other is ‘Why Scientology does not work’. The link is to the home page and you can see that I have also written a number of short satires on Scientology. They are silly but quite fun.

          See ya!

          http://wp.me/P3a0JR-1

          • GlibWog

            Truth thank you so much.. Yes I will read I would love to.. In fact I am going right now.. I have been lurking over at WWP..

            So you have perfect timing..

            I am so glad you are out! Good for you. .. Yep I agree I can’t imagine feeling or being responsible for screwing someone ( other than myself) up with that crap.. Good Lord..

            OK.. I’mmmmmmmmm off…. Thanks again Truth.. I always enjoy your posts. Glibby

    • D.Y.G.

      I feel pretty confident that in his sociopathic grandiosity he feels a great deal of contempt for not only Hubbard, but also for the Tech and Scientology as a whole. He will use Hubbard’s work as it suits him but I guarantee he still thinks he can do it better even as it’s crumbling down around him.

      • Nevermore

        He is a Big Being after all, despite his Lilliputian stature.

      • GlibWog

        Oh Welcome D.Y.G. !!!!!! I absolutely agree.. If he is laughing behind Cruise’s back with his Minions I can imagine what he says about Hubs..

        So glad that you joined us! Woo Hoo…

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      One has to remember that Geir still believes in the ‘tech’ even though he doesn’t label himself a $cientologist anymore. In past interviews he acknowledges Hubbard’s rubbish as a useful tool.

      By adhering to $ciencefictionology, Geir’s critical thinking is seriously compromised. I don’t take him seriously.

      • Mark

        He wasn’t being serious. It’s called irony.

      • villagedianne

        If parts of the ‘tech’ did not help people, then Scientology would not have such a powerful hold on it’s adherents. The tech is the bait in the mind-control trap.

        • InTheNameOfXenu

          The tech only worked because Hubbard ripped off the idea of abreaction therapy. Like Atak reported, it was useful for people who experienced real traumatic instances like war. So, Hubbard plagiarized the idea and applied that technique to all people. This resulted in him getting very rich quickly.

          So abreaction was the bait and the rest of Hubbard’s creation is the trap.

          • villagedianne

            Yeah, Hubbard stole from everybody, including his own followers.
            But I ab-reaction therapy is not the only part of the tech that people get some results from. Jason Beghe had a powerful spiritual experience early in his Scientology involvement, doing a process that did not involve that type of auditing. He wanted more of type of experience, but instead he got less and less good and more and more bad.

            • George Layton

              I believe it might be that those experiences came from the individuals themselves. Sadly the experience happened to be triggered by some part of the {tech} process and that person gave credit to the {tech} rather than realize they were the source of the experience.

            • InTheNameOfXenu

              Very well put. Hubbard packaged $cientology, saying that it would work for everyone. He thought all minds operated the same way. He was dead wrong. $cientology is faith-based psuedo-therapy. So long as the subject believes it works, they get results plain and simple.

            • Captain Howdy

              “Jason Beghe had a powerful spiritual experience early in his Scientology involvement,”

              Why do people bandy about this word “spiritual” like it’s something that’s a given provable thing when it’s not?

            • ze moo

              Some claim spiritual experience from LSD, should you take LSD all the time then??

            • InTheNameOfXenu

              I take it your an Indie. What type of process did Jason do? To me, $cientology was an alternative to doing drugs. People got ‘high’ off of auditing. Instead of becoming stronger as a person moving up the bridge, the opposite occurred. People became more dependent and weak by my observation. I recall times when I saw these so-called OT’s saying, ‘I’m out-ruds.’ This person just finished OT8. I remember thinking that she spent half a million bucks going all the way up to OT8 only to find out that she was still human. What a waste of life. I’m so glad my involvement was short and never got deep into auditing.

            • ziontologist

              People had all kinds of experiences in scientology. No doubt about it.

      • GlibWog

        You know Xenu .. I have always had a difficult time understanding those who still believe in Tech..
        I just do..

        To me it’s like an Atheist singing the praises of the Lord and the Bible.

        • kemist

          Believe it or not, there are atheists who praise the benefits of faith.

          They tend not to be very popular on activist atheism forums.

          • GlibWog

            I bet they aren’t kemist..ha… Man that would be some major trollin huh?

    • villagedianne

      There is the danger of group-think in all groups including this one. It’s ok to disagree.

      • GlibWog

        Awww thanks Dianne.. I absolutely agree.. Especially since Marty’s bunch think that we are Tony’s little cult..haha

    • ziontologist

      Geir Isene: “Nothing can be complete and consistent – you can look at Godel’s incompleteness theorem.”

      How can anyone who knows about Gödel’s incompleteness theorem also believe that David Miscavige is a genius?

      I think Geir Isene may be measuring Miscavige’s genius in dollars. How much cash has Scientology collected under Miscavige? It’s probably a lot.

      • Gerard Plourde

        I think that he means that to be able to keep the scam going for so long requires a sort of genius, sort of like an idiot savant can be proficient at one thing.

        I do agree with Geir that Miscavige must be a true believer, weird as that may sound.

        • ziontologist

          I don’t think he did a good job of keeping the scam going. People left in droves.
          David Mayo had a better grip on the subject. But who knows, if Scientology was more successful under someone else, it might have attracted the attention of the mainstream much sooner. It would been exposed for what it really is.
          All Miscavige did was emulate Hubbard’s worst qualities. I still want to know how Miscavige met with the head of the IRS without an appointment. What did he have on the guy? Photos of him in bed with Kirstie Alley?

          • junojones

            Dead girl or live boy. It never fails. Kirstie in 1990 would have been something all the geek boys wanted too, and not much in the blackmail category, Sorta like being caught in bed with Farrah Fawcett circa 1977.

          • WildaBeast

            Somebody said something about an underage boy…but I’m not sure who it was who was supposed to have been photographed in bed with said boy.

            • Robert Eckert

              Supposedly, Commissioner Goldberg, in the wildest most exaggerated version of the rumors. That’s not likely to be it.

      • GlibWog

        Zion.. I agree.. I studied Godel’s theorem briefly in a logic course.. ( when I say briefly I mean for one hour back in the 60’s .. )

        Yep.. Measuring genius and success in $ … definitely agree

      • That’s an erroneous over-generalization of the implications of Gödel’s incompleteness theorems of the sort criticized in Torkel Franzen’s book, Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guide to Its Use and Abuse. There are logical systems that are provably complete and consistent. People who say such things probably don’t really “know about Gödel’s incompleteness theorem” in a very deep way.

        • Robert Eckert

          “There are logical systems that are provably complete and consistent” None which can deal with an infinite number of cases.

          • That’s not correct. For example, propositional logic is provably complete and consistent, and can represent an infinite number of propositions. Gödel’s Theorem applies only to formal systems which are capable of expressing arithmetic (e.g., predicate calculus with identity and the axioms of Peano arithmetic). Leave out the Peano axioms, and predicate logic is also still provably complete and consistent, and can represent an infinite number of propositions. It’s not the infinite number of cases that results in incompleteness, it’s the ability to express arithmetic.

            • Robert Eckert

              Propositional logic does not represent the content of any of the propositions; external to the system you can infinite number of different assignments to “p” and “q” but the system does not see any of that. It is not until you have representations for at least the natural numbers (“arithmetic” as you put it) that there are really infinite different things.

            • Yes, that’s right, I shouldn’t have said “represent an infinite number of propositions,” I should have said “derive an infinite number of consequences” (regardless of the meaning assigned). But that’s a countably infinite number of consequences, while there’s an uncountable infinite number of natural numbers.

              My main point, though, is that it’s not infinity (or even uncountable infinity) all by itself that creates the problem–the incompleteness result doesn’t generalize to allow you to say, e.g., there are an infinite number of possible pieces of knowledge and therefore some things are forever unknowable to us. That could be true, but it’s not a consequence of the incompleteness theorems, which are about consistent formal systems with the power to represent arithmetic.

    • Missionary Kid

      It doesn’t really matter if DM believes in the {tech} or not. If he’s a true believer, he’s screwed a lot of people. If he’s not a believer, he’s screwed a lot of people.

      DM is a marketing genius in that he has managed to sell the Same Old Shit over and over by repackaging it. It’s outmoded, it only works for a few people some of the time, and it’s ultimately damaging, yet he gets people to buy it. I call that genius. It’s evil genius, but still genius.

      • GlibWog

        Meh.. I can’t do it.. I can NOT call him a genius..

        • Missionary Kid

          *Chuckle* O.K., crafty.

          • GlibWog

            What cha mean crafty.. ?

            Kid.. My thoughts..

            Jerry Sandusky..? Would you call him an Evil Genius.. ?

            Coached at Penn State had access to the entire facility where he could take his boys to the exercise rooms and showers.

            Involved in a Charity where he had access to an unlimited number of needy neglected boys. He was the Pillar of the Community and respected by all. ( on the surface at least) He literally had the run of local HS and could walk the halls without causing suspicion.

            Had a woman that turned a blind eye to what was happening in the basement.. Little boys spending nights in hotels because they had the opportunity for the first time in their lives to see a Penn State Football game.

            A grown man spending so much time with a man who gave them so much attention and gifts… and yet.. Wow.. He just mapped it out so cleverly and was idolized so much and given so many accolades . Adored by the community and the University while he was destroying so many lives in his wake.

            Evil Genius? Nope Just Pure Evil

            DM .. Evil Genius ? Nope.. Just Pure Evil

            • Missionary Kid

              Nope. Sandusky was not a genius. Evil, yes, but compared to Co$ and DM, his victims constitute maybe 0.01% of the people that DM has managed to damage.

              This is the way in which I mean to call DM genius: I typed in to Google, “define genius” and this is the last entry that came up.
              adjective informal
              1. very clever or ingenious.
              “a genius marketing ploy”

            • GlibWog

              I understand what you are saying kid.. I used Sandusky just as an example..of course it is a smaller scale.

              I typed in Google for Evil..

              :wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious; malevolent, sinister, demonic, devilish, diabolical, fiendish, dark;

              monstrous, shocking, despicable, atrocious, heinous, odious, contemptible, horrible, execrable;

              We’ll just agree to disagree.. It really semantics.. No big Whoop in the Grand Scheme of things. We are on the same team..doesn’t mean we have to be on the same page all the time.

            • Missionary Kid

              *Evil thought* Hey, you’re not glib for nothing. 😉

            • GlibWog

              hahaha You bet cher sweet ass darlin..

  • Phil McKraken

    Very interesting article, Jon. Thanks! It’s always fun to note the difference between science and pseudo-science when it is so stark…

    Science, approximate and self-correcting: “The practice fell out of favor because it was held to be inapplicable outside the stresses of war. After some spectacular results with injured US pilots in North Africa, Grinker and Spiegel found no peacetime application for the technique.”

    Pseudo-science, arbitrary and unaccountable: Hubbard’s word is law. The source material is unalterable — EVERYTHING depends on that. Do it EXACTLY like LRH says.

  • BananaSplits8

    I really like Geir Isene’s comments. I only disagree when he says Miscavige is a marketing genius. No exceptional skills are needed to sell propaganda to fanatics. Using Geir’s arguments, I would simply conclude Miscavige is a ruthless greedy bastard.

    • Eivol Ekdal

      I agree with you. Religions have been mutating to survive since the beginning of time, it is hardly unique to Scientology. DM is also guilty of changing Hubbard’s tech to bury some of the more appalling practices. So his ‘preservation’ efforts are not unique, he is just blindly carrying out the dreams of a now dead once alive, oosing with drugs, festering, meat headed, lying shit sack.
      Edit: forgot paranoid & sociopath

      • Nevermore

        Most religions, as far as I know, mutate into better versions of themselves. $ciloonery seems to have got worse and worse with every revision.

        • shasha40

          Yep, and even though some have been around for centuries , most do recognize and adapt to changes in society and or reason . But alas , Tiny dick’s hands have been tied by lrh’s demanding that the tech not be altered in any way . {{{And we All know Td worshipped lrh and respected his wishes so greatly that he revamped Hubbards protection from ruthless dictators taking over his busin, ah, church, to where he’s the King , and lrh’s leadership choices were given early retirement with food and housing , affectionately known as the hole. }}}

        • villagedianne

          I agree that most religions move on with the times. However, it sadly does not always work this way. Many fundamentalist groups are becoming more extreme than they ever were.

        • Captain Howdy

          They mutate into better versions of themselves because secular society makes them do so like with the Mormons and such. They don’t do it willingly.

        • sumdayiwill

          hmmm..Is it really mutating into better versions of themselves or getting rid of the more unacceptable practices to keep the punters coming through the doors? An empty church or morg just means less revenue and lets be honest whether it”s mainstream religion or a cult they all want your money. Some just hide their naked greed a little better than others.

    • Ms. B. Haven

      I think a lot of commenters here are disagreeing with Geir’s assessment of DM as being a marketing genius because he is regarded by exes and indies alike as being an evil bastard. It is certainly the one thing that we can all agree on.

      That said, I agree with Geir that DM certainly is a genius (evil genius), but I disagree that it has much to do with marketing. Sure there was the repackaging of the materials that the church currently sells, but they would never be able to pull off such a feat without the backing of an indoctrinated and captive sales force and a fearful public. Scientology “Ethics” is the key here. There is the ever present threat of ethics actions if one doesn’t buy the new marketing scams that are always popping up. GAT I. GAT II, IAS, Ideal Orgs, Ideal everything, radio stations, TV stations, Basics, Mission Packages, Narconon Packages, etc., etc., etc. There is always something to buy even for someone who has bought everything. If you hesitate or refuse, you are “counter-intention” and off to ethics you go for a friendly visit with the ethics officer or MAA. Knowledge Reports are written up and your OT eligibility is at stake. The true believers have to toe the line or their eternity is at stake. When one wakes up and realizes it is all bullshit, one can walk away and be truly free with their eternity and integrity intact. You will also have whatever remaining wealth you have intact. Ethics is a powerful and difficult hurdle to clear before this can happen, but any hurdle can be cleared.

      Also, many have questioned Geir’s assessment of whether or not DM is a “true believer”. It doesn’t really matter one way or the other. What really matters is all of his subordinates and church members are true believers. As long as that is the case the cash keeps rolling in and he is free to exercise his “marketing genius” any way he sees fit. Ethics will make sure that they are true believers. At least for a while.

  • monkeyknickers

    I totally agree, except I think the Catholic church is WAY ahead of Miscavige in the slow-needful-repackaging regard. I doubt that even catholics would disagree with me. I mean . . . babies are left in Limbo if they die . . . . . okay wait but now they’re not. You can’t be Jewish or we’ll kill . . . . o. . . . kay not so much. We love Jews now. You must tithe to the church elsewise we’ll kick your ass and eat your babies . . . . um . . . . no? ok fine then please just show up for sunday services and act like we DID eat your babies and god hates you for buying . . . . shit . . . . FLOUR . . . instead of giving the money to us.

    He’s impatient. Christianity has been doing it for 2000 years.

    The marketing genius of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea makes Miscavige look like a total fucking amateur.

    Sadly – a successful one.

    I HATE when stupidity is rewarded with success.

    You wanna be evil? Fine. But at LEAST be clever enough to not make the rest of us slap our foreheads every five seconds.

    This – honestly no joke – is my biggest bitch with my sister. I KNOW she’s smart. If she’d gotten sucked in to a cult with Einstein at the helm, I’d kinda get it. But THIS GUY?? REALLY?

    HE IS STUPID. I actually sincerely wonder if he knows his multiplication tables.

    Maybe he has a 24 hour guy for that.

    What a putz.

    • Sidney18511

      Being raised catholic there are also some other changes that come to mind. Woman HAD to wear hats, divorce was not allowed, cremation was a no-no and you HAD to eat fish on Fridays, and I must say….seeing that flounder on my plate every Friday while growing up might of given me serious engrams.

      • villagedianne

        I hated fish when I was growing up because all we ate was fish that had been frozen. I changed my mind the first time I ate a fresh fish.

        • kemist

          If you were catholic you were supposed to hate it, see. The point of catholiscism is to suffer. I should know as a former catholic myself.

          How thankful I am to be allergic to fish and seafood. I didn’t have to put up with the disgusting fish meals for long because of that. My mom soon tired of cleaning up vomit.

          • monkeyknickers

            NNOoooooooo!

            You’re allergic?

            If it isn’t forced down your throat in a bizarre outdated ritual way – it’s delicious! The food of my peeps.

            Can you not even have crab at least? Or shrimp?

            I genuinely have a sad scrunchy face on right now. 🙂

            • kemist

              eh, I’d probably be game for seal.

              I try pretty much every food that’s put in front of me as I love to discover new tastes. That’s how I became such a huge fan of Indian food as to hang out with my best friend’s dad so he could teach me how to cook it. I ate jackfruit and tamarind when most people around me would not even touch them (jackfruit because of the smell, tamarind because it looks like bugs).

              One day I want to taste durian, which is supposed to be the stinkiest edible thing on the face of the earth.

            • monkeyknickers

              Well . . . . . . brother (I think otherwise, sister)

              I could supply you with a little bit of canned seal meat. I won’t say where I got it except . . . . my Auntie Barbara in Ketchikan gives it to me. :)) AND she makes some awesome donut action with seal fat.

              Isn’t THAT A slice of weird. 🙂 She’s also addicted to Words With Friends. It takes all kinds.

              I will tell you I tasted durian when I was volunteering in Thailand last year.

              I think there are more heroic pursuits. 🙂

              I’ll just tell – it smells and tastes like ass.

              Yay! Now you can concentrate on tasting icelandic hakarl instead! Way less offensive but still gross. And that’s saying something.

          • joan nieman

            Kemit, I too, was forced to eat fish every Friday as I was growing up. I will not go near fish now! I despise it!

          • Nevermore

            Once I was old enough to get away with it, I just used to go to a non-Catholic friend’s house for dinner on a Friday!

          • Casabeca

            Excellent pattern recognition on her part!

      • monkeyknickers

        Those are MUCH better examples, Sid. I was writing faster than I was thinking.

        What else is new.

        🙂

      • Jerseygram

        You had flounder? Try having to eat fish sticks or, even now, all these years later, it’s hard to say this…tuna caserole

      • ThetaBara

        But, but, I thought the Flounder could do no wrong!!!
        Sorry. Going to bed now.

    • kemist

      Religions and cults are mind viruses that exploit the pattern-recognition mechanisms of the human brain. They are not unique to humans. Even pigeons develop superstitious rituals in some situations.

      Like all viruses, a sort of natural selection operates on them. The most virulent ones tend to disappear with time, because they are too rapidly detrimental to their hosts to propagate – this is also true of biological viruses.

      I think scientology is in that virulent category. It has eradicated its vertical propagation (in biology, that means propagation through your children) by banning children amongst its members and has isolated itself from the mainstream too much for efficient horizontal propagation (proselytism). There is precedent for disappearance of cult/religions from this self-terminating combination. Successful religions stress either one or both transmission mechanisms.

      Cults are baby religions, and religions are cults that have withstood the test of time. Both can be quite destructive to their members and to society as a whole, since both promote irrational autoritarian behavior.

      • villagedianne

        There is hardly any philosophy, good or bad, that can’t be used to manipulate or control people, if the intention is to use it in that way. There are self-help cults, there are therapy cults, there are business cults.
        Group think and irrational behavior are all around us. Remember the internet stock boom?

      • monkeyknickers

        Jesus how awesome an analogy is that. I had to read it twice.
        (I can’t have coffee anymore sadly)

        That’s clever. Huh.

        Still mentally chewing on this one . .

        You’re smart. Good on you! 🙂

      • Captain Howdy

        ^^^^^ You made my bulb light up

      • Orglodyte

        Nice analysis! Discouraging children is a pretty major bug if you want your mind virus to survive. The easiest way to make a convert is to, well, make one!

        It’s tough, even as a public Scientologist, to have kids. The cultural pressure against it is indirect but heavy — the organization wants everything, every bit of your life, energy and money, and it wants them by Thursday at 2.

        Kids are a longer-term survival strategy, and if you’re applying conditions and thinking about the greater good, they will never make to to the top of the list.

        Can’t propagate into the future, can’t propagate outward — and can’t evolve. Triple whammy. I have often wondered whether Scientology could make the transition into the mainstream that the Mormons are slowly making, or putter along like Christian Science. Today, I am optimistic that it will disappear completely.

        • Vistaril

          Framing Scientology within the religious context prevents the forming of an accurate model with which to project future possibilities. A more accurate view of Scientology is that of an organised crime syndicate and, with that model, it can be fairly accurately stated that Scientology will continue to infect society for a long time yet – especially if its religious disguise is perpetuated. In terms of reform, any moderation of Scientology’s “tech” immediately renders it NOT Scientology as defined by itself. Its quite possible there could be some sort of off-shoot which concentrates on, say, the auditing aspect, but any such offshot will not be Scientology.

          • Casabeca

            I think you make a good point, but what is the product of this Mafia? People seem to think they need the drugs, “protection”, prostitution, etc. that the mob provides. So it goes on and on. It gets a little money at a time from a lot of people. How does the cult keep selling meters, books and blue sky? I am not doubting your hypothesis, just wanting further elaboration.

      • ziontologist

        “Even pigeons develop superstitious rituals in some situations.”

        Do pigeons have beliefs? “Pattern-recognition mechanisms,” yes, but BELIEFS??? DOX, please!

        • kemist

          I will have to search though my papers for the exact reference, but yes, pidgeons can become superstitious. The experiment involved feeding pidgeons when they clicked a button, which is a rather straightfoward training method. However, the particular twist of this experiment was that at one point the system was switched to a random awarding of the food. Clicking the button did not award food anymore, but food would be distributed at random times.

          It was observed that some pidgeons would continues to click the button for a rather long time even though it was not linked with food anymore, which was an expected result.

          But one pidgeon developped an obsession with looking over its shoulder when food happened to be randomly distributed after that particular gesture – it had become superstitious. It performed a ritual of its invention that it believed would bring food, because it saw a pattern that wasn’t there.

          Pattern recognition is a very strong mechanism in animals, including humans, and will give a lot of false positives. If you think about it, it’s not too surprising – it’s better for your survival in the jungle to think that you’ve seen a predator when there is none (false positive) than to think there is no predator when there is one (false negative). That’s why accurate pattern recognition is difficult for humans and demands the considerable efforts of mathematics and science.

          Cults/religions are faulty pattern recognition on steroids (observing the development of more recent religions such as cargo cults provides an interesting insight into how they become so complex and creative), and it’s not too surprising to see how pervasive and powerful they are on human life.

          • ziontologist

            Whoa. Dude! (Or Dudette!) Time Out!
            “it’s better for your survival in the jungle to think that you’ve seen a predator when there is none (false positive)”
            Yes, I know this argument. It’s also an explanation for why humans believe in “spirits.” Because it’s “safer,” to assume that something is there, than to assume there’s nothing there.

    • Vistaril

      Patterson’s Law: all public Internet discussions about Scientology will include a post claiming that all religions are equally bad”

      Assisting Scientology with its religious cloaking gets us no where. Just sayin’.

      • KC

        Agreed. It’s OK and sometimes good to have serious doubts about religion (I say this as a PhD candidate in theology), but its quite clear that Scientology is not a religion and thus cannot and should not be judged with the same criteria with which we judge other religions. Arguing against Scientology on Scientology’s terms is doomed to failure.

        (My first post. Have very much appreciated the conversation around here.)

        • monkeyknickers

          Welcome! I love the spirit of debate and free thinking here.

          That being said I completely disagree with you. Scientology is a religion is every sense. Pretending otherwise is silly.

          I’m a kinda flighty, halfsie indian who is really pregnant, and a working musician as opposed to a published journalist or a public lecturer or well educated philosopher. But I can argue this point into the ground with ANYONE.

          Because I think it wrecks people’s lives. And stops us from loving one and other. Anything that does that is ABSOLUTELY a religion.

          Anyway – normally I’m funnier but I have a cramp in my calf and my 4 year old niece has decided to be bratty and try to smack her cousin over temporary ownership of a cheap tiara, so we’re in full lockdown here. 🙂 I might be a bit cranky.

          But really WELCOME! :))))

        • Robert Eckert

          Welcome to the board! Whether it “is” a religion depends on how you define the word, and many of these arguments go in circles because people are not really speaking the same language and talk past each other. In terms of the etymology, cultus was originally a generic term for any systematic veneration of some specific figure, as the Romans would refer to their own “cult of Jupiter” and “cult of Caesar” as readily as they would call Christianity the “cult of Jesus”, but nowadays I think it makes more sense to restrict “cult” to the veneration of some human, personally known to the followers (or at least to some of them); religio meant something “passed down” (related to “relic” and “relegate”) and in Latin actually it was religio that had a derogatory overtone, similar to superstitio (something that “stays on”, lit. “stands over”), while cultus was neutral. I therefore use “religion” to mean a “cult” which has shown itself able to survive: Mormonism started as the “cult” of Joseph Smith, but it lasted after everybody who had known Joseph Smith died, so it has graduated to being a “religion” now, much as Christianity stopped being just the “cult of Jesus” once the last disciple (John, traditionally) who had actually met him was gone. I will not call Scientology a “religion” until there is nobody left who knew L. Ron Hubbard: my bet is that it will not be capable of surviving as something “passed down”.

          • KC

            Wow, responses across the spectrum. Thanks for welcoming me!

            1. Sisterchef: Trust me, i have no illusions about the social credibility that comes from being a theologian. Most people couldn’t care less and that is something that I have (painfully) accepted over the years. I do this because I care about it and because I think it matters. That being said, I have spent enough time studying philosophy and theology to realize that when people say things like “there is no proof that God exists,” they don’t really know what they’re saying. Would it surprise you to know that I happen to agree with you? How about this one: there IS proof that Scientology ISN’T a religion. Agree or disagree?

            2. Robert Eckert: that’s a good one, haven’t heard it before. to your second response, I agree with what you’re saying about cultus and religio, etc. Of course, that’s not exactly how we tend to use the word today so its kind of a red herring. In that sense, I would argue that something like “America” or “Capitalism” is more of a religion than Scientology ever could be. And things like tradition (latin: traditio, “to pass down”) don’t necessarily make things religions. In fact, most things we consider traditions we *don’t* consider religions.

            3. Monkeyknickers: I can sympathize with what you’re saying, and if that is your definition of religion I don’t see how I can argue with you. Of course, as Robert says, it all depends on how you define the word.

            To everyone, I guess I just want to understand this: If 1993 had never happened – if Scientology had not successfully manipulated its way to tax-exempt status as a “religion’ – would anyone seriously consider it a religion? I doubt it. We would say “cult” and we would mean “group of people misled by sociopathic leader.” We wouldn’t mean in any real sense of the word that it is a “religon” at all. So I would repeat my first question and add a second: if the IRS ever decides to revoke Scientology’s “religious” status, how would we respond? I think we would all say, “Finally! Now we don’t have to go around calling it a religion any more!”

            Anyway, that probably won’t really appease anyone, but I offer it anyway.

            • Kim O’Brien

              i agree with you KC. I love ya monkeyknickers ..but i am going with the theologian here …and i am a flat out anti-theist . Sisterchef ..i am curious by the venom in your post and the dismissal of what you might call …” book learnin “. Lemme guess , you were in scientology at some point ?

              KC ..i have found that scientologists ..either ex or indie ..really get their backs up on this point. They will say what a scam it is , what crimes are done or have happened in the past .They will say scientology ruins lives and families , it is a ponzi scheme for a short nutcase , they will say it’s a “philosophy”…or a “technology” …they rarely call it a religion …until someone else says it’s not 😉

            • KC

              That’s helpful, thanks Kim. I actually don’t know any Scientologists or ex-Scientologists personally, so I guess I should be more careful in these discussions. I can imagine that it is painful to sort this kind of thing out.

            • Kim O’Brien

              i don’t know any either ..strange since there are “supposed” to be like a bajillion of them. There are several atheists and fans of Hitchens / Dawkins clan here ( i am one of them ) several lapsed whatever’s ….baptists, catholics ( got me again ) and i would hazzard a guess that most people here would consider themselves “spiritual” . Trust me …if you start going off on some sort of ” hey man , the old testament doesn’t have THAT much violence in it ” kinda preachy thing that these indies do here sometimes …you well get ripped too 😉

            • KC

              Don’t worry, you won’t get any preaching from me. I prefer to have real conversations. (And anyone who has actually read the Old Testament should know about the strange amount of violence therein. But that is a discussion for another time and place…)

            • Kim O’Brien

              amen 😉

            • Kim O’Brien

              don’t be careful …no one has the right NOT to be offended .

            • monkeyknickers

              No no it wasn’t meant to be venomous at all. My blood pressure has really not at all gone up today. Venom – no. Internal need to speak up – DEF.

              Well venom wise – except for Ashleen’s tantrum and subsequent post tantrum tantrum.

              It was just a reaction to one person over another being “certified” to have an opinion that holds more weight on a subject which simply cannot be evaluated that way. ESPECIALLY philosophy. We are all philosophers. What makes Kim and Nietzsche so different? Seriously. One writes on a blog and another by longhand. Both hold a firm opinion which they can competently defend.

              That someone’s ideas on humanity and how we relate are regarded as MORE valid because they have a piece of paper saying they read some books is absurd. It is ab.so.lutely absurd.

            • Kim O’Brien

              not YOU …that sisterchef person . You have preggo brain if you think i think you are venomous 😉

            • monkeyknickers

              Phew!!. because I honestly need outside perspective at this point.

              I cried at a dog food commercial just moments ago. I also got really really mad at Ashleen today. I mean – I didn’t beat her to death, and she was being an absolute toad, but . . . . I normally teach-n-diffuse these situations in a much less-angry way. And today the hammer definitely came down.

              I’m not myself.

              Hopefully she will survive and not turn into a serial killer or a stepford wife.

            • Kim O’Brien

              i remember once – my daughter was about 3 i think ..she had spent time that day with a potty mouth great aunt and then later called her gramma and me a “bitch”. For one second i was furious and thought to myself ..” i am going to be on the news ” ..but then i was proud of how she structured the message and tried not to laugh . Then of course …my mother told me an equally goofy story of when i was a little one and kid in the Sears in a clothes rack and fell asleep . My mother had a panic attack , called the cops …whole 9 yards …you are doing a great job! Just don’t shake the baby and ask for help 😉 Otherwise it will be months before you can take enough time to shave your legs

            • Robert Eckert

              “I would argue that something like “America” or “Capitalism” is more of a religion than Scientology ever could be” Before you can “argue” that, you need to articulate what you even mean by that. I am puzzled since your other post offered a definition of “religion” as something separated from the “secular”: America and Capitalism are entirely concerned with this world, not with any theories about otherworlds, and so by your definition would seem to be utterly excluded from being “religions” while Scientology is squarely included.

            • KC

              I’m not sure where I offered any definition of “religion”, especially one separated from the secular. Can you please point that out to me?

              What I mean is that “America” and “Capitalism” are ideas that we don’t *think* are religions because we assume them in everything that we do. I’m not trying to argue for them actually BEING religions, which is why I said, “I would argue that something like “America” or “Capitalism” is more of a religion than Scientology ever could be.” Which, to be clear, means I don’t think ANY of them are religions.

              And I have no reason to think that anything like “theories of otherworlds” are necessary for something to be a religion. I happen to think that is a mistake, and I am a Christian.

              And for the record, considering everything I’ve said above, I think the discussion of religion is precisely the problem with discussions of Scientology. It is not a religion, in my opinion, and considering it a religion is a dangerous way to proceed in helping people see it clearly.

            • Robert Eckert

              “I’m not sure where I offered any definition of “religion” ” You offered Cavanaugh’s definition, in terms of which your sentence makes no sense at all. Otherwise you have offered no definition, which makes your insistence on talking about what “is” or “isn’t” a religion as meaningful as a discussion about whether snorflingums are or are not beregonious.

            • KC

              Exactly, i offered CAVANAUGH’s definition as something interesting and thought-provoking. What I did say was that I thought that the construct of “religion’ vs. ‘secular” is a mistake, and this is the definitoin that Cavanaugh says is a modern construct and not one that make sense if you were to examine pre-modern material. I did not endorse it at all, and if I wasn’t clear about that, then I hope I am now.

              So I may have said what I think religion is NOT, but I have nowhere said what i think religion IS.

            • KC

              Here is what I said, in case you were looking: For a good book, check out William Cavanaugh’s “The Myth of Religious
              Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict” He
              basically shows the word ‘religion” to be a modern construct used to
              offset the “state” or the “secular.” I think that in itself is a
              problematic move, so I tend to use the word religion sparingly (this and
              my previous post notwithstanding!)

            • Robert Eckert

              But you won’t give any clue how you yourself intend the word “religion”, and your claim that “America” and “capitalism” are, and “Scientology” isn’t, a “religion” doesn’t mean anything unless the word means something.

            • KC

              You’re right, I won’t *give* any clue (although I’ve probably *left* many of them). The word surely means something, but I don’t think its a particularly helpful word (which is why I say I use it sparingly). I think (and I’m echoing another commenter) that the word “religion” tends to be used with great equivocation. I have good (meaning they are good for me) reasons not to use the word, good theological reasons, good historical reasons, and good sociological reasons. I realize it is a word we use in our society, and I’m sorry if my suggestions here have been mostly deconstructive. I would prefer that we never use the word, but I live in a society that does and so I try my best to find ways to avoid it. In this case, I am talking about it with the sole purpose of arguing against its use with reference to Scientology, the central content of my very first post. I hope you understand that.

              And I don’t really understand why you’re so caught up with my claims about “america” and “capitalism.” I have a feeling that these are two concepts that you will strongly defend as somehow universally good, or maybe historically “better” than other similar concepts found in history. As a Texan I find this often upsets many people. I’m sorry if it upsets you.

              Let’s just say that I used a bad example; clearly it was not a helpful metaphor for you.

            • Robert Eckert

              “I have good (meaning they are good for me) reasons not to use the word” But then you do.

              “I am talking about it with the sole purpose of arguing against its use with reference to Scientology” Well that’s absurd. If you’re not going to use the word at all, then why single out your non-usage of it for one potential referent in particular?

              “And I don’t really understand why you’re so caught up with my claims about “america” and “capitalism.” ” Because it was a very strange sentence, like “We should refer to baby elephants and to geraniums as examples of fish, but we should not call eels that.” So I ask you what you mean by “fish” and you say you don’t even like the word “fish”, but you especially don’t want people to call eels fish.

              “I have a feeling that these are two concepts that you will strongly defend as somehow universally good” I have no idea why you would believe any such thing about me.

            • KC

              Well, it seems that you and I are just missing each other today. I have my reasons for arguing against the use of a word, and I’m sorry if those are not helpful or fruitful for you. I have found it very helpful to avoid using the word when I can. I am not immune from using it, but I tend to find myself looking for other ways to say what I want to say.

              I’m sorry if you are uncomfortable with my inability to define a word and only give negative definitions instead. I could offer up really unhelpful cliches like: belief in transcendence with ethical standards or code derived from some founding documents, a community gathered around certain practices and traditions, etc. As I said, I think these are unhelpful because they define things like America and Capitalism just as much as something like Catholicism and Scientology. Furthermore, that same definition doesn’t define Buddhism at all, which most people would consider a religion.

              In Scientology’s case, I can think of several different and much better words besides “religion” that I would use to describe it. That, for me, besides my other reasons, is good enough not to consider it as such.

            • Robert Eckert

              “I could offer up really unhelpful cliches like: belief in transcendence with ethical standards or code derived from some founding documents, a community gathered around certain practices and traditions, etc.” That would have been far more helpful.

            • monkeyknickers

              You are so right, KC and I really really am not trying to be a dick, tho I think I missed the mark on measuring my writing today.

              Religion only depends on how you – US – define it. What does that tell you?

              I’ll give you an example.

              “We everybody reckon the world’s flat and thus define it in those terms”

              And then,

              “Ahem!! We . . . . uh . . . . have new information. Or something. Think – a giant blue . . . . round thing. Good luck but kill a bunch of people who say so and also excommunicate and stuff until people realize how ridiculous we’ve been”

              It is NOT definition. It is interpretation of things we really don’t understand.
              And interpretation is always up for . . . . . interpretation.

              What I CAN define is gravity. What I CAN define is that everybody dies. What I CAN define is that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

              I REALLY have no problem with people believing in invisible ideas, invisible friends. I wrote as much to my sister, tho she never replied. If she wants to continue believing that she lives for a billion years . . . . . fine. But inflicting that belief on others is profoundly evil.

              I don’t hate Christians. Jesus, in this state I’d be drawn and quartered. I don’t hate Muslims.

              But I don’t need to guess at what religion does when it’s in charge. It writes itself irrevocably in blood.

              Crusades.

              Jihad.
              Murder.

              Inquisition.
              3000 people dying a horrible horrible death just trying to go to work. And thousands more jesus – TENS of thousands more dying less sensational deaths every damn day.

              I respect and love my fellow man. Regardless of religious affiliation. I want my sister back. I want to hold her (and smack her) and comfort her (and yell at her) . . . . I want her BACK. I don’t care if she wants to worship a weird old fat guy and his idiotic leather faced successor.

              But the moment she tells Ashleen that if Ash doesn’t apply herself she won’t get her “eternity” ?? That’s it.

              Done.

              God I REALLY am not an asshole KC – seriously. Sorry, friend. I just believe that this is such an important subject, and we avoid it because we’re conditioned to look away.

              Do you want some cookies?? I’ll send cookies. I have a sad scrunchy face on. So does Ashleen but it’s because she lost her TV privileges today. 🙂

            • KC

              Monkeyknickers, I never thought you were an asshole! I understand the pain involved in all of this, but I surely don’t understand it the way you do. You are very right to be concerned with all of the things you mentioned above, and anyone not concerned with them is someone I find I don’t have much in common with. As a Christian, I find it odd when people ignore the past harms we have done. And I am acutely aware of the ways Christians have ignored, blocked, explained away, denied, etc. all the terrible, violent things we have done to people throughout history. Really despicable stuff. So you and many others are justified in your contempt for Scientology, or for others Catholicism, or Christianity, or even just “religion” in general. I totally understand that.

              No cookies necessary!!

            • monkeyknickers

              But what if I WANTED to send you some cookies. ? :))

              You know . . . . the one REAL kinda prissy beef I have with contemporary christianity is how so so SO many parishioners don’t KNOW THEIR OWN SCRIPTURE.

              I mean – I cannot TELL you how many times I’ve debated with someone, cited something in their bible, and had them look at me blankly.

              It’s not all John 3:16 people.

              🙂

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              “It’s not all John 3:16 people”

              Now that, my fair lady, would make a fantastic bumper sticker!

            • monkeyknickers

              Yah!!

            • kemist

              For the record, I do not think all religions are equally bad (well I think they’re all equally false, but that’s another topic ;).

              What I think is that religion shouldn’t be a cloak for anything, including scientology. It does not deserve the automatic public respect it gets, whatever its form, and we should start treating it on its merits, as we treat any other idea.

              I also think religion should not be given tax exempt status on the basis of it being religion. It should be subjected to the same standards as any other charitable organizations, that is by evaluating what good it does in a community.

              Getting rid of the underserved social respect for religious ideas would decrease not only of the malevolent influence of scientology but also that of all present and future similarly vicious cults – because, let’s not kid ourselves here, there will be other such things in the future once this particular nutty flavor of it is gone.

          • KC

            Robert: I wanted to say that I think the way you talk about religion is really helpful. I guess the problem I would have is that I am a Christian, and so I can’t pretend to distance myself from my beliefs when I talk about this stuff. Which is to say, I don’t always know how to talk about religion because the very category itself is problmeatic. For a good book, check out William Cavanaugh’s “The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict” He basically shows the word ‘religion” to be a modern construct used to offset the “state” or the “secular.” I think that in itself is a problematic move, so I tend to use the word religion sparingly (this and my previous post notwithstanding!)

        • sisterchef

          Not to burst any bubbles but to me, saying you are a PhD candidate in theology holds as much credibility as saying you are a PhD candidate in Unicornism.. it’s nice that you’ve spent countless hours studying the ins and outs of religion but seeing as there’s no proof that god exists it really isn’t very credible in the sense that you would know what a religion is and isn’t.

          • Robert Eckert

            A very old line (not original with me but I don’t remember who to credit) has it that “A theologian is a blind man searching a coal cellar at midnight for a black cat who is elsewhere.”

            • kemist

              Sort of like a theoretical physicist, but without equations.

              (I keed, I keed.)

              (Well… yes and no. 😉

              The other day me and my lab collegue were looking at the theology PhD theses that were published last year at my university (weird kind of hobby, I know). What we found out was that none of the PhD theses that were published last year as theology were actually theology. Some could be classified as anthropology, others as social work (what does a study about the influence of the practice of team sports on high school dropout rates has to do with theology ?) or litterature.

        • Poison Ivy

          Welcome KC! Nice to have a real theologian on board. I’m just an armchair theology student. I’d argue that Scientology can be considered a religion in that it has a cosmology that attempts to explain life, death and our purpose on the planet. I’d argue that this cosmology, however, was invented by a sociopathic sci fi writer for purposes of defrauding and enslaving people, not furthering their “spiritual” development. I’d also argue that it is (with the exception of Satanism) the most narcissistic cosmology around – with no reference to love, charity, or compassion.

          • KC

            Hey Poison Ivy, good to have an armchair theologian on board too, although I wouldn’t say that makes you any less “real” than me (I just get to do it for a living, er, for a measly stipend that barely covers my mortgage…)

            Yeah, the fact that Scientology has a cosmology and some kind of eschatology (does it?) makes it harder to argue that its not a religion. I think the fact that we know fairly certainly that it was developed for the sole purpose of making one idiosyncratic man wealthy is enough evidence for me to declare it not a religion. The same case can be said of Mormonism (as someone else brought up earlier), and personally I don’t really see why it shouldn’t be judged in the same way. Which is to say, I don’t see any reason why someone can’t consider any of the “major” religions cults. If we did that, maybe we would be more clear about what actually troubles us about cults vs. religions. (for some those words mean the same thing, for others they mark a very deep difference). I guess the fact that it is more socially acceptable to be a Mormon means we just don’t care as much to be concerned if people around us decide to become Mormons. (And the fact that Scientology is not socially acceptable gives us more freedom to say “cult!” without fear of alienating very many people, or fear of seeming politically incorrect.) And Mormonism, if it is a cult (which it might be), is a fairly benign cult.

            • ThetaBara

              Oh, it has eschatology all right. Look up OTIII! It’s on the ‘net. You will love it!
              Or just watch the “Trapped in the Closet” South Park episode on Youtube. It has the same information in a much more entertaining presentation.

        • Casabeca

          My B in law went to CTS. Love the subject. Welcome!

      • monkeyknickers

        But it’s true.

        Obviously true.

        Scientology IS a religion. Just as Mormonism is.

        How do I get around that without having to lie by omission when I write about them?
        That won’t look suspect? What does that say about me as an avid critic? That I can see the color red in a flower, but not in blood?

        To me, bending reality that way is the first step on the slippery slope.

        We hate this ONE thing right now – and the OTHER thing that completely demonstrates the possible long term repercussions of the the FIRST thing we’ll not discuss in case they get connected in a way that means we somehow give creedence to the thing we are saying is worse. It’s a manipulation of reality when we are all trying to be real.

        Look: it’s no secret in my life or on this blog that I firmly believe that organized religion is a direct threat to humanity. Catholicism in the 1500s thru today. Islam now. Broader christianity kinda . . . all the time. It HURTS people. And there is NO amount of “charity” that a religion can do that a) other people who don’t believe in some god or other do not, and b) can make up for the supremely wretched suffering that religion has caused across the globe. I refer you to the Catholic church in Africa right this very second. I refer you to little girls getting stoned to death rIGHT this second in Nigeria because their bible says do not suffer witches.

        I’m paraphrasing Matthew Dillahunty here, but atheists and humanitarians can help feed and care for the homeless WITHOUT making them sit thru some sermon. We’re not holding their sandwiches hostage for Jesus.

        I FIRMLY believe that scientology is a religion, as religions are described by history. Absolutely. It has every. single. aspect nailed. And I look at it with same derision I look at 6 young men fighting their way into airplane cockpits with box cutters, with women blowing themselves up, with young men beating someone to death for being gay, with actively – ACTIVELY – telling catholic africans that condoms are bad while their parishioners fall dead from something THEY COULD HAVE STOPPED.

        I 100% don’t respect religion. I think it’s bad. I respect and love PEOPLE. And I do . . . I LOVE people. I love learning and helping and giving. Not just to my niece and family . . . . but seriously – if any of my blogfriends here needed a place to stay, they have but to ask, you know?

        But I will NOT under any circumstances respect an organization that willfully debases its adherents for a fucking fairy tale.

        Yes, I want to see Scientology come crumbling down. I want to have my sister out.

        But I’m not prepared to cut corners or fib in order to do so. That’s how Nazis happened.

        I’m not trying to sound like an asshole, but . . . . we can’t pretend that cults aren’t religions.

        • kindacrazymom

          You’re views & passion on this subject & not being afraid to actually say it but still being so loving to every body is just one of the major reasons that people like me & my husband can start thinking & leaving the church with confidence. Thank you for being the honest person you are. Ihope the babies & Ashleen are doing good!!! 🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            One of the sayings that I collected on a list of things to get people out is, “People will help you. It will be O.K.” The problem is that disconnection from those still in is also a sad problem.

            I wish you the best.

          • monkeyknickers

            You’re sweet, girl.

            And if you want a bunch of stormy pretentious viewpoints,
            I’m your major supplier. 🙂

            I truly believe that this defining thing about whether it’s a cult or whether it’s a religion simply exists because one has time on its side.

            I don’t have to point ANY further than Mormonism. It made it thru it’s first hundred years without self destructing. So now we have to respect it. What crap.

            I’m so happy you’re out, sweetheart.

            But it’s YOU (and your husband) who got yourself out. YOU did it. You may have used tools to do so but who doesn’t need to use a hammer to build a house??

            I will be your hammer anytime. But it’s you wielding it. It’s you who has mad the decision to drive the nail in.

            (PS I actually literally have no idea how to build houses, just in case the analogy failed there – please refer yourself to a local contractor pro type human)
            :)))

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Stop the press folks! We’ve got one on the hook…..in a good way. Welcome Crazymom! There’s so much truth and goodness on here in between the joking and degrading. Glad you could join us.

        • Collin

          best rant ive heard all day! 😉

      • Poison Ivy

        I like it. (But who is Patterson?)

    • Collin

      ugh i cant imagine a relative that is in , must be hard, and very frusturating, 12 years ago i dated a woman casually and then about 5 years ago found out she was one of them. I tried to reason with her , but to no avail, then they started coming into my work harassing and staring at me ……thank god they sent her to an org in California, it broke my heart to see her that way , and the worst part about is she is way too smart for that!

      • Missionary Kid

        Intelligence has nothing to do with the emotional choices one makes when they are in $cientology or any other system of belief. It is belief, based on emotions, and that is always more powerful in and individual than intelligence.

    • Poison Ivy

      Love you Monkey….you’re a smart cookie for a girl who wears knickers!

      • monkeyknickers

        Maybe it’s a decoy word and I’m neither have a prehensile tail OR am wearing underpants.

        This is the internet, after all.

        YOU NEVER CAN TELL.

        🙂

    • Exterrier

      superb rant. yay

    • ThetaBara

      Don’t forget Indulgences!

  • Sidney18511

    It really gives me the williys to hear the word “genius” used in the vicinity of DM and LRH. But that’s just me.

    • shasha40

      I’m with you , I’ve got the willy’s and I’m hearing , ” Twilight Zone” theme music .

  • Eclipse-girl

    I like Geir, and usually I find him very informative. But not today.

    I do not think that DM is a master at marketing. I think he has a captive audience that have been trained / conditioned by the Co$ to buy into whatever they are told.

    I think these people would purchase anything if DM or the Co$ told them to.

    I also agree with Glib. I do not think the DM actually buys into the tech. I think his narcissism is so great and his exposure to a dying L. Ron allowed him to the see through the facade. He is in this for power over people and for $.

    If the tech worked, wouldn’t Co$ have been able to to find the SPs who have been holding down the stats are the various orgs?

    If the tech worked wouldn’t Co$ have gotten rid of the loyal execs who were actually SPs before the had put in 10 / 20 or 30 yrs and been the competent managers?

    • 0tessa

      Exactly!

    • ThetaBara

      If the tech worked, couldn’t they just postulate Anonymous out of existance?
      If the tech worked, would so many of them still need to wear glasses?
      If the tech worked, why would any of them die?
      If the tech worked, why would they need to reg people so hard? Shouldn’t they have all the money they could ever need?
      If the tech worked, why are all these lawsuits happening?
      ETC!

      • Eclipse-girl

        I think we are on the some wave length.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Geir Isene doesn’t get around.

    Other fantasy peddlers have also taken works that have been frozen and changed them while leaving them the same. Star Wars followers were unhappy when he fixed up Star Wars with CGI. But he still made a billion on the next series. Lord of the Rings followers were touched by the film’s similarity to the book but when the Hobbit didn’t fit the three film format they mixed in the Silmarillion. Superman, Archie, Spider-man, Batman get married, change costumes, die, get new partners but then they end up back as they were.

    All that Miscavige had to do was lie. The faithful followers believed enough nonsense already that there was nothing to accepting a bit more. And besides, if they left, no immortality for them. George Lucas and Stan Lee had no such advantage. They had to be more creative.

    And there are still more Jedi Knights than there are Scientologists.

    • ThetaBara

      Han shot first. I don’t even worship that movie, but come on.

  • Tony Williams

    A friend who did lights for a local venue told me that Diana Ross would not go on stage until all three of her very high-quality reverb units were tested and working perfectly. I can’t even imagine how much Admiral Sciuridae spends on effects machines to get that ‘Voice of Gu-hod!’ sound on his voice…

    • Mark

      I think he gargles with ground glass, too. And I’m sure all the steroids and Viagra help to get that Harvey Fierstein growl going.

      • shasha40

        ” Ground glass ” , well someone needs to tell him to use more and swallow ! Harvey , will Always sound waay better and not scare children, don’t think we can say the same for Tiny dick. Tick , tock …

        • Mark

          Daveykins thinks Harvey is so butch & macho!

  • Truthiwant

    Scientology appealed to people because it is the sort of equivalent to a supermarket pre-prepared meal. It is like a ‘straight off the shelf’ therapy. But just like a supermarket meal, you don’t really know what’s inside it.

    One of the first things that you are told when you start in Scientology is that psychiatry is evil because all psychiatrists cure their patients with lobotomy or elettro-shock and alter the mind with drugs like prozac.

    One thing that Scientologists do not do is inform themselves about what auditing really is and its similarities to hypnosis. I remember many Scientologists ranting on that auditing “has nothing to do with psychotherapy or hypnosis. It’s completely different.” I really don’t think any one of these people knew anything about psychotherapy or hypnosis or psychoanalysis or any other form of mental health cure. I guess this was true for me aswell back then (blush).

    A Scientlogist once said to me that he had picked up a book by Rudolf Steiner but said that he couldn’t read past the first page because it was “complicated nonsense”. I find that quite amusing now thinking that Hubbard’s books are none other than “simple nonsense.”

    • kemist

      That’s a bit like new agers who will read Deepak Chopra (or, as I call him, Deepcrap Chopper) instead of Richard Feynman.

      Who needs equations to understand quantum mechanics anyway.

      • sugarplumfairy

        “If you’re really spiritual, then you should be totally independent of the good and the bad opinions of the world…you should have faith in yourself.”
        ― Deepak Chopra

        “You have no responsibility to live up to what other people think you ought to accomplish. I have no responsibility to be like they expect me to be. It’s their mistake, not my failing.”
        ― Richard P. Feynman

        I love Deepak.. He has more in common with Feynman than you realize..

        • kemist

          Chopra is guy who insisted physicists stole the term quantum from him instead of the other way around, which explains the disdain I have for him as a scientist.

          He also promotes magical thinking.

          This in itself is innocuous for the worried well in small doses.

          But I have had the unfortunate and dubious pleasure of witnessing the effect of such thinking on a terminal cancer patient who also happened to be my best friend and let’s just say it was not pretty.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Hope in lieu of competent treatment doesn’t work.. In conjunction with competent treatment it is a good thing..

            • kemist

              Oh, she did get competent treatment, which, even if it could not cure her, at least afforded her a few more years of life.

              The problem is that false hope based upon an illusion of control upon one’s circumstances is two-sided coin. If you fall into the cured group, you get to be proud of yourself.

              If and when you enter the stage IV club, where even the most dedicated positive thinking melts away, you get a triple helping of guilt that you simply cannot share with your magical thinking infused friends.

              Guess who picked up the pieces when what was statistically bound to happen, happened, and that fragile false hope bubble burst ?

            • sugarplumfairy

              Mr. kemist.. Taking care of people at end of life is one of the things I do for a living..

              Magical thinking has a time and place in this world and certainly no more appropriate time and place than the last few days or weeks of life..

              You are no more certain of your assertion that miracles don’t happen than I am of mine that they do.. Honesty and hope go hand in hand quite nicely.. I am capable of answering a patient’s questions truthfully while not stealing away every last measure of their hope..

              And I’m not talking about false hope.. Statistics is not something any dying person should be thinking about in the last stages of their life..In fact, end of life is probably a good time to just turn off left brain and fly with the right..

              If you have been given the honor of holding someone’s hands near the end of his life, you have been given a blessing.. I’m sorry it didn’t turn out well for you..

            • kemist

              I think palliative care is very important and of course did not discuss certain death with my friend in her last, and very precious days, which I am honored to have shared, even if it is the hardest thing I ever did.

              The part I absolutely hated, and with which I still have a big problem, is the idea that she could influence the outcome of her disease with her state of mind. I can still remember the crushing anguish she felt at her inevitable lapses, and her guilt when her disease recurred.

              Sometimes it’s better for you to realize that you have no control over a situation and that, pardon my french, shit happens. That it’s ok and human to feel bad about it, and to express anger at the injustice of it all. That’s how my friend felt, and some people discouraged her from expressing those very normal thoughts because they were not positive and cheerful enough. In the end she chose to avoid certain people because maintaining that facade was simply too exhausting for her.

              One movie that expresses a bit of how I feel about it is called Pink Ribbon Inc. by Lea Pool.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I get it.. I’m glad she had you..

            • Casabeca

              One of my nearest and dearest is not expected to see this Christmas. I may be asking you for advice! Friend seems at peace with the end, but her teen daughter doesn’t want to hear about anything but fighting on and winning that fight. Hospital bed comes to her home this week. I currently just text little love notes and offer specific concrete help in a time range she can choose from, that seems to be welcomed.
              Any advice will be considered and appreciated.

            • sugarplumfairy

              So sorry, Casabeca.. Try to spend time alone with her when daughter isn’t around.. If I think someone wants to talk, I usually start the conversation with “are you afraid?” and see where it goes from there.. The saddest thing I hear from patients is that some of their closest friends and family begin to avoid them because they just can’t take it.. Sounds like what you’re doing now is perfect..

            • Casabeca

              You are very wise and kind. Thank you.
              Can’t turn away now.

        • Missionary Kid

          In that case, yes, but he also engages in a lot of magical thinking.

          I like Deepak, too, but I look at his pronouncements as simply a way of looking at things. When he wanders into science, it’s obvious that he only sees validation for his point of view, and not the obvious contradictions.

          I find all of what Deepak says just to be a metaphor or a tool.

        • ziontologist

          “Be yourself.” – Kenny Burrell

          • sugarplumfairy

            “unless you’re an asshole..” -sugarplumfairy

            • WildaBeast

              (1) “Be yourself.” – Kenny Burrell
              (2) “unless you’re an asshole..” -sugarplumfairy
              (3) “In which case, do something about it. You can, you know. Then, see (1)” – WildaBeast

            • sugarplumfairy

              Thanks.. I’ll work on it..

            • ziontologist

              I’m an ex-scientologist.

              I have thought LONG and HARD … how did I fall for this scientology bullshit???

              How did I start to consider the possibility of past lives, or having lived before, millennia ago, in outer space?

              You know what did it? Trust.

              Based on what?

              For me, it was the “wins” (good feelings) I had co-auditing “Self Analysis,” at the introductory level … remembering pleasant memories from “this lifetime” … memories from early childhood. I felt all warm and fuzzy inside. I thought I was on to something. Little by little, I started having high hopes.

              I was wrong.

              For a time, I tried to share these experiences on this blog.

              I was harassed continually by “sugarplumfairy.” She’d always write “AAAAGGGHHHH!” after my posts.

              Whenever I explained my “wins,” (good feelings), she falsely accused me promoting scientology.

              If I can’t tell the truth about my experiences in scientology on this blog, then where?

              It’s just ridiculous. But I guess the important thing is that everybody has a good time. Why not hire a band? I can sing and play Steely Dan, changing the lyrics to make the songs all about John P.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Thank you Zion. A very clear, simple explanation of how it worked for YOU.

            • grundoon

              SPF’s “AAAAGGGHHHH!” always seemed to me like an honest reaction. If harassment, it’s about the weakest harassment imaginable. I see that you still carry the scars, like the time I got a paper cut on my pinky, there’s still a little white mark there. Your Steely Dan / John P mashup sounds fun btw.

      • joan nieman

        kemist! You said it! Piles and piles of New Age literature all saying the same thing and people are buying into it! People are always searching for the truth and all the while, the truth was always in them . I suppose we, as Humans, are always “looking for an answer’ to everything but it is all whittled down to our own perception and problem-solving abilities.

        • WildaBeast

          I think a lot of the reason people buy into New Age stuff, or even Scientology, is that they don’t have enough faith in themselves to realize that they are their own best source of understanding.
          I think ways of looking at the world only make sense to a person if they’re able to match that way up with their own experiences and personality, and have it make sense. Sometimes this is a huge stretch and sometimes it’s a cookie-cutter fit. But I truly believe that if you look for yourself, cherry-pick from everything you learn, tie all those bits of information together in your own way, and come up with your own ideas, you’ll get the best possible fit.
          But that’s hard to do if you’re stuck at a point of believing that other people are better than you. From there it’s a very short hop to thinking that their way of looking at the world must be “more true” than anything you can come up with.
          I also think this is why cults catch people when they’re at their worst; it’s a deliberate attempt to get inside their heads at a moment when they’re most likely to believe that other people are more right than they could ever be.

          • ziontologist

            “they are their own best source of understanding.”

            That’s exactly what Scientologists believe, that the ultimate knowledge comes from within. They called it “knowingness.”

            • WildaBeast

              Mmm, yes. What I’m talking about is more along the lines of engaging in critical thinking, and doing your own thinking to figure out what things you’ve thought critically about are true in the light of your experiences, and which are likely true but outside the realm of your experience, and which are likely to be bullshit.
              I *don’t* think endless navel-gazing gives you mystical insight into the truth of the universe, or anything else. Outside information and critical thinking are essential tools to learn anything about anything. I just see so many people not having enough self-confidence to say that ANYTHING is true, unless an “authority” has said it already, and that bothers me a lot.

    • villagedianne

      Having been hypnotized myself, I can say that it’s a lot different than what people thing. I didn’t feel like I was in any kind of trance. My eyes were closed, but I was aware of and could hear everything around me. I was just in an extremely relaxed state.

      • Missionary Kid

        My experience, too. That was a sense of peacefulness that I had. I do also know that I was also in a very suggestible state.

      • Robert Eckert

        I’m one of the people who cannot be hypnotized. I got very relaxed, but just did not get suggestible.

      • ziontologist

        If someone is lost in their thoughts, are they hypnotized? I think it’s too vague a term.

      • WildaBeast

        *laughs* When I was in serious analysis, one of the conflicts I had with my analyst came when we’d gone through all the crap in my conscious mind, and realized that a big fat whack of what was affecting me was locked away in the subconscious. She was a hypnotist as well as an analyst. I wanted her to essentially try and break down that wall through hypnosis. She…wanted me to voluntarily commit myself to an institution for 9-12 months at the age of 17 in the hopes of accomplishing the same thing. I stopped seeing her soon after that.

        Knowing that you remain aware of what is going on makes me realize that I possibly had an inaccurate idea of what hypnosis could do for me. That’s nice to know, in a way; one less “if only x had happened then maybe y wouldn’t be such a shitshow” (where y is my life :p) scenario for me to worry about not getting all worked up over.

        • Kim O’Brien

          meditate …really make an effort at it because it takes practice . A few classes usually does the trick in order to get the “calm down” technique learned. Then …15 mins’ a day . Do that for 30 days …4 mondays …i promise you will feel better , sleep better , and be less stressed .

    • Ciru

      He was certainly right that anything Steiner wrote is nonsense.

      • Truthiwant

        With all respect, I disagree.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Off Topic: So far I have only heard positive reports that South Australian Senator, Nick Xenophon will retain his seat in the Senate… so it’s looking good for $cieno fighting in Australia for the future.
    Ok, carry on…
    Nah… David Makemerich is no genius… just greedy with a twist of narcissistic power hunger.

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    Genius? Miscavige?

    Mutually exclusive.

    All he does is exploit those people’s mental bondage for money.
    He is scum.

    • Espiando

      You’re insulting scum. Scum at least can photosynthesize. The Dark Lord Chuckles The Silly Piggy is a pure parasite.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I agree….scum gets a bad rap. Especially when it is in my shower!

  • WhereIsSHE

    What Jon Atack has pieced together here is damning. Many of us comment here about how Hubbard stole his ideas from the psychs (and others), but Jon has managed to lay bare the actual evidence of it, and not just by quoting Hubbard, but by placing those quotes into historial context via reference to the development of treatment in the actual psychiatric world.

    It gives me a headache to even imagine undertaking the task of re-reading so much Hubbard just to connect the dots, let alone to paint the final picture.

    Thank you, Jon Atack.
    Brilliant work.

    • EnthralledObserver

      I really don’t understand how the Indies can ignore THIS ^^^^^ and sing the tech’s praises, even if they sometimes concede Eller H’s faults. I mean, the obvious morphing of the ‘tech’ from Dianetic’s original debut through to the current, modern ‘$cientology’ almost can be described as worlds apart, and here is the solid proof that what the lot was originally based on and stolen from is in direct conflict with the current ideals and beliefs. Dianetics/$cientology IS psychiatry, but twisted into a harmful version of it.

      • Espiando

        I hate to say this, but they can and will. Remember that the Indies are playing pick-and-mix with the Tech (even the Milestoners and their KSW Uber Alles routine). They’ll end up saying bullshit like “LRH took the best aspects of abreactive therapy and narcosynthesis, eliminated the bad stuff, and made it work 100% of the time. It is the Tech and therefore infallible.”

        It would definitely fit into my theory that Scientology attracts the most scientifically ignorant in society, the people who failed or nearly failed high school biology, chemistry and physics (or the equivalent in non-US educational systems). Only people ignorant of science would consider Scientology a science.

        It’s the whole anti-psych thing that puts Steve Hall on the top of my Indie Shit List. How he can promulgate the CCHR line in the Indie world and keep a straight face is beyond me.

        • villagedianne

          I know nothing about Steve Hall’s work. But there is a substantial movement of people who feel that there is over-drugging in our society.
          Naturally you don’t suddenly take drugs away from a schizophrenic person. That’s just really stupid.

          • BananaSplits8

            There is however a difference between discussing a valid social concern and taking a rabid, unilateral stance that shuts down all nuance.

            • monkeyknickers

              Damn – that was well said. I wish I had the same talent for kick ass brevity.

              And oh yeah!

              You’re so right.

            • WildaBeast

              As you can see below…I’m not even TRYING for kick-ass brevity. :p

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              You have a gift…..but it is most certainly NOT brevity. 😉

            • WildaBeast

              Thank you, BS8! Just…thank you. I’m one of the people with depression and a bunch of other shit for whom anti-depressants are worse than useless. (I tried multiple prescriptions. It was worse than the original problem every time.) I’ve seen things like a 16-year-old girl being prescribed 700mg of Seroquel DAILY. She was blacking out and crashing her wrists into the bathroom mirror – I’d been like family to her for years, and she didn’t recognize me when I ran into the bathroom to get her away from that damn mirror.
              I don’t think anti-depressants or anti-psychotics should be the first line of defense for people who are unstable. I really don’t. That said, I’ve also seen people who were given their lives back by those drugs; I’m so happy every time I see them work as intended. And I would NEVER dream of arguing that something like schizophrenia can be treated properly without drugs.
              These drugs are a damn useful weapon in the arsenal against mental illness. It just frightens the living hell out of me to see how many psychiatrists seem to consider them the ONLY weapon.
              I really like the way you phrased that: “shuts down all nuance”. A reasoned and nuanced discussion is exactly what’s needed – and the Scilons aren’t even trying to have one. They’re just rabidly anti all things psychiatric or even psychological, if it isn’t the Holy Tech. And that is something I have a HUGE problem with; I think of the people who are suffering from a simple chemical imbalance that SSRIs could fix, but who are stuck living with the consequences of that imbalance because Elron has decreed psychiatry evil, and it makes me sick.

            • Poison Ivy

              Great comment, Wilda.

            • WildaBeast

              Thanks, PI 🙂

          • Poison Ivy

            I believe that ADD is over-diagnosed and over-prescribed drugs for it. A lot of schools have eliminated or shortened RECESS. Bringing that back might help a bit in the high percentage of kids diagnosed with ADD. In addition, the influx of constant stimulation for kids, in the form of TV, video games, the internet, etc etc, creates an artificially stimulating environment that drives a kid crazy once he/she is forced to sit in a classroom for hours at a time. I have a close friend who is a real doctor (VERY highly regarded) who really diagnoses real ADD cases, among other psychological issues that kids/teens have. Of course ADD is real. But it’s easier to prescribe pills to kids than look deeper about what may be going on in their schools and particularly, in their families. My friend says that 80% of the time, if she digs deep enough into the family dynamics, the learning problems find their original source there, not in the brain.

            I also think anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs are overprescribed. We as a society are looking for quick fixes with pills. And Big Pharma IS raking it in and doing really sick stuff to keep us hooked on their cures.

            However, lives are saved by anti-depressants, anti-anxieties, and other psych drugs – such as medication for schizophrenia, bi-polar illness, and other conditions. Depression untreated kills people with suicide and kills productivity and hurts families. Depression is a real illness in the brain that can’t be “snapped out of” the way people wish it could. It’s different from being down, blue or sad. Thank God there are life saving drugs to help people get out of it.

            These drugs when used correctly are a boon, not an ill. And whether or not they are overprescribed is another issue altogether.

            Scientologists are exactly the same as those who want a quick fix pill – except they want a quick fix audit to solve the same problems. And their motivation is the same as Big Pharmas – they want the business. They want the money.

            Hypocrites.

            • WildaBeast

              The ‘quick fix’ comparison is a good one, PI…as is the point about identical motivations. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, but I think you’re right.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              True, indeed.

        • George Layton

          There are many well documented studies(and don’t worry your head where these studies are. They are squirreled away some place safe and sound) that prove that as one’s knowledge of auditing increases, so does their vanity increase. Exponentially.

        • Moonshot

          “Only people ignorant of science would consider Scientology a science.”
          Well, in point of fact you are very wrong about that. One of the leading lights of the “lay” Scientology community is Bryan Zwan. He is a mega-million dollar contributor, having made hundreds of millions from his ulimately failed tech company Digital Lightwave.
          Bryan holds a Phd in Physics from Rice University and holds numerous patents resulting from his own original research. If i remember correctly, much of his research delt with the properties of light refracting and propogating through various media, and at some point he was also infolved in some way with JPL or NASA regarding a Mars probe. I believe he also holds either a Phd or Masters degree in Mathametics.
          In any event, he is no light-weignt in science. Not saying that i like or agree with the man in any area, just saying your comepletly wrong in your assertion. There are other acedemics and scientists involved, now or in the past, with scientology that are a whole lot less public about it. Like many celebrites, the are “secret” sicientologists. In other words, being well aware of the negative public conoation of the cult, they keep their interest or involment on the down low.
          I would be very carefull about any sort of broad assertion that because “scientists” do or dont beleive or involve themselves in any particular beleif system that said system is valid or invalid. Scientists are no more less human than you are I and the list of prominent scientists involved with or endorsing whacky and destructive ideologies in the past century is a frighteningly large one.

          • Espiando

            One data point does not provide proof. Sky Dawson is not point #2 either.

          • Missionary Kid

            Being a scientist doesn’t mean that someone applies the scientific method to fields that are not their specialty, or even, at times, to their own specialty.

            A prime example of this is Linus Pauling and his whole campaign for the use of vitamin C as a nostrum.

            • Pete Cockerell

              And perhaps even more appositely, Francis Collins, ex leader of the Human Genome Project and current Director of the NIH, being a devout Evangelical Christian.

            • Missionary Kid

              Damn. I learned a new word today, “appositely.” Thanks.

              The HGP doesn’t require that a person believe in evolution, just that they be able to figure it out. There are Evangelicals who do believe in evolution. They just believe that god is directing it.

            • Robert Eckert

              Erudite persiflage is a lagniappe of the Bunker.

            • Missionary Kid

              O.K., I understood the first word without looking it up. 😉

            • Moonshot

              Absolutely correct. I’m sure most Evagelicals would point to the complex and amazing structure that is DNA as proof positive of Intelligent Design.

            • Missionary Kid

              First, I was once one of them, and second, ID is not proved in DNA, nor is it disproved. The burden of proof of someone putting forth a theory is on them, and all of their “evidence” is so weak as to be nearly laughable.

              ID is a matter of belief, not science.

            • Moonshot

              I agree with you, i was giving their POV in support of your assertion.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, I realize I misread your reply. I didn’t even look at who it was from when I did. I apologize

            • ThetaBara

              Yeah well, menstruation and menopause are proof that “intelligent design” is bullshit.

          • Exterrier

            amen

        • Casabeca

          Hate to ask, but what is CCHR line?

          • GlibWog

            Cas…. From Wiki…

            There are also Youtube videos that may interest you..
            Never, ever hate to ask anything around here..So much info..so little time..ha

            The Citizens Commission on Human Rights International (CCHR)
            is a nonprofit organization whose stated mission is to “eradicate
            abuses committed under the guise of mental health and enact patient and
            consumer protections.”[1] It has been described by critics as a Scientology front group that campaigns against psychiatry and psychiatrists.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] It was established in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz,[11][12][13] and is headquartered in Los Angeles, California.[14]

            The organization holds that mental illness is not a medical disease, and that the use of psychiatric medication is a destructive and fraudulent practice.[15] CCHR follows the Scientology doctrine that psychiatrists (‘psychs’) are the primary cause of evil in society:[16][17]

            In a 1969 article, “Today’s Terrorism,” published in a Scientology journal, Hubbard claimed that “the psychiatrist and his front groups operate straight out of the terrorist textbooks. The Mafia looks like a convention of Sunday school teachers compared to these terrorist groups.” The psychiatrist, Hubbard went on, “kidnaps, tortures and murders
            without any slightest police interference or action by western security
            forces.” Later, Hubbard wrote that, in society, “there’s only one
            remedy for crime — get rid of the psychs! They are causing it!”

            • Casabeca

              Ok, now I remember,this is the group that almost got Kerry Kennedy to speak at Anne Archers house for a fund raiser. And they say that psychs caused the Holocaust at that big exhibit. I didn’t understand the lines part…like comm lines or lines meaning phrases repeated. Must be the latter?
              Thank you Glibby, you’re a doll!

            • GlibWog

              Yes..Yes.. Just a bunch of Whack jobs..

              The Comm line is the imaginary line when 2 people are talking.. This line is between them.. A former Scn would certainly have better explanation than I do..

              Awww Thanks Cas.. My friend.. so sweet of you to say I’m a doll..

              Sometimes I’m Raggedy Ann and Sometimes I’m Chucky..( hahaha ) xoxo

          • Robert Eckert

            CCHR line is that psychologists are part of a grand evil conspiracy to subjugate mankind blah blah blah.

            • Casabeca

              Thank you for helping me. I had no idea that any Indies carried that over, but if auditing is how one makes one’s living, should not be surprising.

            • Robert Eckert

              Most Indies don’t.

      • Nevermore

        Willfull ignorance. They don’t want to hear. Not yet anyway.

        • shasha40

          Or the fear of losing all family, friends and business connectiions. Especially when your spouse is trained and will write up a KR on you if you express doubt in any way . Pretty powerful control mechanism.

        • WhereIsSHE

          I get the sense that some of them will never overcome that willful ignorance.
          I bet you could pull a Clockwork Orange on Tom (“If you don’t KNOW it…. go and learn it!”) Cruise– hook him up to the Ludovico technique aparatus, eyelids pried wide open–and show him the proof (Hubbard’s words; Miscavige’s sociopathic violence, etc), over and over and over again– and he would still ignore the facts.

          Hoooooo-boy, is he forever screwed.

          Living in a real life Vanilla Sky nightmare.
          He’s wealthy…. but horribly disfigured( in his BRAIN).

          The Indies who just like the auditing process and keep to themselves about it, I have no issue with them.
          The ones who still cling to Hubbard as some sort of god and who promote that are the ones for whom I have no patience.

          • Poison Ivy

            That reminds me – I had a dream the other night I convinced Tom Cruise that LRH was a fraud. I don’t remember much about the dream except he was really pissed off and then grateful to me. I don’t usually dream about Tom Cruise – I’ve never found him in the slightest way attractive. Totally not my type, even at his best.

            • ziontologist

              Everyone in your dream is YOU.
              What does Tom Cruise represent? How did you FEEL towards Tom Cruise in the dream??? And what, in your real life, do you feel that way about? Follow your feelings, PI …

            • GlibWog

              Hilaaaaaaaaarious.. It was like the time I dreamed I was with John Houseman because of seeing Stud’s Avatar..hahahhahahhaha

            • Casabeca

              I woke up humming “We Stand Tall”! Ack ack, ick ick! Must listen to something lovely and True to wash out my brain!

            • GlibWog

              Hilarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrious…hahhahahahahahahha Ack, Ack ick ick… ugh Puke.. sick ugh..eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

              YOU WIN Cas ( hahahhaha)

          • Kim O’Brien

            scientology ..it’s like autism but without the good stuff

            • monkeyknickers

              I love you.

            • Kim O’Brien

              i heart you too sista 😉

            • Missionary Kid

              Was it you I got that from? it’s great.

            • Kim O’Brien

              i get royalties right ? LOL

            • Missionary Kid

              The check’s in the email.

          • GlibWog

            From what I have read Tom not only knows about Tator Tots sociopathic violence, but has participated in it himself

            Shit where did I read that.. Was it Marc Headley?

      • Sidney18511

        I would think that it is, for some people at least, easier to say that “there are some good benefits” that they received from scamology then to admit to THEMSELVES that they were sucked into a con like the gullible foolish people they really are.

        • Moonshot

          Your comment simply lays bare the shallow nature of your thinking and your general inability to cognite an orignal thought. In short, you are a moron. I mean this with a warm heart and in a theta way.

          • Missionary Kid

            CLUES SOMEONE IS A TROLL OR CLAM OR BOTH:
            Brand new Disqis account.
            Cherry picking the posts they respond to.
            Using Scientology made up words or definitions.
            Will insist on telling the “wins” that Scientology can give.
            Insisting on defining terms and words their way.
            Takes offense at criticism of $cientology
            Ignoring 50 to 100 years of scientific observation.
            Concepts of psychology and psychiatry are from the 1930s and ’40s.
            Ignores that LRH stole all his ideas.
            A general supercilious tone.

            • Poison Ivy

              “Using Scientology made up words or definitions.” Hmmmm, I’ll have to cognite on that.

              I’d add, setting up a straw man comparison, such as “saying scientologists may manufacture wins rather than admit they were a part of a con is much like saying Jews were at fault by being slaughtered by the Nazis.”

              Jews and Nazis and Communists mentioned frequently in these Straw Man defenses.

              Moonshot is one of the smarter scribes from Marcab, but a Marcabian nevertheless.

            • Missionary Kid

              Amen. Appears to be an Indie, but still drinking of the Kool Aid, and totally ignorant of the rest of psychology, psychiatry, marketing, physics, science, math, etc….

            • Moonshot

              Ah, convenient debating technique, now all observations of history are straw man defense and therefore can be disregarded? This is not straw man, this is fact. Hilter, Stalin, and Mao killed millions of their own adherents, beleivers, followers.

              Because so many of these poor souls once supported the mad men who slaughtered them, does not make them deserving of their fates, nor were they necessarily evil gullible fools.

              This is a directly germaine and relevent to the discussion at hand. You Ivy, are a Little Hitler, or more appropo, you are a little Davie Miscaviage. These types love to make up derogatory and dehumizing pet names for their intended victims.

              So you wish to call me a Marcabian? Just because i dont fall in line and march in lock step with you? You who act like a little NAZI and your defense is in straw men? Thats rather weak.

            • grundoon

              Upon meeting someone for the first time, it’s déclassé to address them as “moron” or “little Hitler” on the very first post. That leaves you very little room to escalate; you lose the attention of the audience because they see that the intelligent portion – if any – of the debate has concluded. The more successful trolls gradiently warm up the audience with a preparatory exchange of lesser insults. Practice a little more at YouTube and Huffington Post, then come back and try us again. Take your time, we’ll still be here.

            • GlibWog

              Moonshot.. If you getting Wins in Scienloony makes you act like that.. You can Have it..!
              Ick

            • Captain Howdy

              Thing is, if someone is serious about what they are saying, by definition they are not a troll.

              Moonshot appears to be an indie scientologist, so I wouldn’t necessarily call them a “troll”

              A rude whack-job, most definitely.

            • Missionary Kid

              Similar to our Greek friend, but more rude.

            • GlibWog

              He is my Theo.. I saw him first… I mean come now at least he’s cute..

            • Missionary Kid

              After a bunch of posts, he seems as if he doesn’t have Theo’s flat learning curve.

            • GlibWog

              hahahhahaha Don’t be dissin my Theo..

            • Missionary Kid

              He who must not be named just doesn’t get it. I’ve changed my opinion of Moonshot. I think he understands us better, and vice versa.

              Time will tell.

            • Davka

              I’m glad everyone simmered down – while we have our trolls, sometimes we are as quick to pounce as indies and others are to attack.

            • Missionary Kid

              We test, and then see.

            • Davka

              Not sure I agree that we need to “test” everyone, to be honest with you. Not sure it’s particularly helpful or useful. Why does everyone have to prove themselves?

            • Missionary Kid

              I didn’t say “everyone.” I should have been more specific and said people we are suspicious of, or set off our alarm bells.

            • GlibWog

              OK.. I will agree .. The Man from Greece ain’t gettin it.. but yes Moon is being respectful.

            • Moonshot

              –Yes, my account is new, i recently found this blog.
              –Cherry picking? do i have the time to respond to all posts?
              –We are disucssing Scientology, so sometimes i use the verbage, excuse me.
              –I dont give my “wins” or push these for others. But yes, i had some. I also had “losses” at the hands of the church. I do not recomment involvment in Scientogy for anyone because of the churches abuses. I also beleive that many of the wins i had from my early involvement can be had elsewhere.
              –Defining the terms of a discussion can be useful to ensuring all parties are discussing the same thing. Trying to define words in an incorrect way would obviously be deceptive.
              –Yes, ignoring actual science is bad, agree with you there.
              –Yes, characterising modern Psychology and Pychaitry by thier past practising or state of art is not good. Agree with you there. I dont believe either subject or practice is inherently bad or that their practitioners are evil simply bcause of their vocation. I think both things can help people.
              –i concede that LRH took many of his ideas from others. I do not worhisp LRH or think he is Infallible.
              –Apologies if i come off as Supercillous. It is offensive to me to be called a troll, marcabian, whack-job, or gullible fool just becuase i was once a church member or that i may yet retain belief in some small part of one aspect of Scientology, even after having rejected much of it.

            • Robert Eckert

              “It is offensive to me to be called a troll, marcabian, whack-job, or gullible fool just becuase i was once a church member” No, that’s not why. Half the people here were once church members. The reason you draw such negative reactions is because you post with arrogance and nastiness.

            • Missionary Kid

              What you may not be aware of is that this blog has several groups who are VERY familiar with $cientology, LRH, the tech, familiar with psyches, (both psychologists and psychiatrists), medicine, physics, mathematics, history, religion, cults, and chicanery.

              The amount of experience with Scientology is TREMENDOUS. Some of the people here were in for over 40 years, and some who drop in occasionally, worked directly with LRH. Others worked directly with DM. We have people who work in the medical field, as well as the different sciences. There are people here who have experienced the LRH tech as well as the “psych” techniques. I haven’t heard any of them say that LRH tech was better. If I’m wrong, they’ll speak up and comment on this.

              That being said, we understand, and generally agree that wins are possible using LRH’s tech. The problem is, that the general agreement here (and I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong) is that it’s all outmoded bullshit. There are enough people here who have had experience both as Scientologists and as people who have used regular psychs who will tell you that the their experience with the “psychs” is much more effective and far less costly than anything LRH came up with.

              Now, I have no experience with auditing $cientology style, but if you’re still hell bent on using tech that is somewhat based on LRH’s theories, find an Indy who is empathetic, and they probably will be able to help you because one of the most important things that make an effective counselor is empathy. That is true for all types of counseling, and it’s backed up by research.

              I do have experience with Reevaluation Co-counseling, which apparently borrowed some of LRH’s ideas, (and used them much more benignly) and I found it somewhat helpful, but for real problems, I would suggest that one go to the professional “psychs.”

              I refuse to use terms in the way that LRH defined them, because they are cult terms, that have no validity in the rest of the world. One of the ways that Co$ isolates and controls people involved is that they define words in a very specific way. That is why, when $cions talk with wogs, they get so frustrated, and vice versa.

              That is one of the subtle ways in which $cientologists are isolated from the rest of the world: they use the same words, but each person in the discussion is interpreting the words of the other differently than they are intended. Why do you think “word clearing” is so important? It’s a part of the brainwashing.

              You are certainly entitled to believe anything you want, but you have a lot of reading to do. When you spout the beliefs that you still cling to that you got from the church here, you will be labelled as gullible by many people here. Some of us will treat you more gently than others, and many of us who are exes, understand where you’re coming from, but that will not stop them from attacking your beliefs. Many of them who were long time members, passed your point of leaving Co$ and discarding all of LRH’s teachings and techniques decades ago.

              Where you are at right now is very old news to the exes. You not only have a lot to learn, but, even harder, a lot to unlearn of the lies of LRH. We also have people here who have experience with other cults, and they have often had the most difficult time unlearning what they were taught inside that cult, because the learning reached deep into a their core, just as $cientology did you.

              Bare-Faced Messiah is available online at xenu.net, but I’d also recommend that you start reading about how LRH developed his {tech} (those are sarcasm brackets) in books like Jon Atacks. If you can’t afford it, at least go back through the days that he’s been discussing the history of LRH and $cientology here in the Bunker.

              Atack not only points out what was wrong with LRH’s teachings, but the advances made in the rest of the “psych” world since LRH stole the ideas.

              It’s ironic that you should comment on a day that his work is being discussed, because what Jon was pointing out was the foundation of sand LRH built on.

              I wish you well.

            • ThetaBara

              Well said, MK.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks.

            • joan nieman

              Wow! very, very good!

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks. I can be a pedantic asshole at times, but I’d rather try to educate someone so that we can talk as adults than fight.

              It’s O.K. to disagree, IMO, but often when we write, we come across differently than how we intend, particularly when we’re newbies to a blog. I was trying to let Moonshot know, after jumping on him prematurely, (because he made some statements that made him seem to be a Kool Aid drinker) what I thought the ethos for this blog was. I hope I got it right.

              In spite of his original hostile reception, Moonshot has joined in. We’ve had some trolls and Indies drop in who, in the first category, quickly learn that we don’t tolerate BS, and, in the second, again, we don’t tolerate BS, but we’re willing to point out the weaknesses in their arguments.

            • GlibWog

              Alrighty Then.. Proceed

            • Missionary Kid

              I edited it down for Moonshot, and after some back and forth, I hope he can realize what the unspoken rules are here. See the subsequent discussion below.

            • grundoon

              If you break an unspoken rule, MK puts you on Double Secret Probation, and if you don’t shape up, an unwritten goldenrod declare will go into your unseen Ethics folder. The secrecy of the unwritten declare would be violated if anyone were to actually disconnect from you, so we’ll all treat you the same as we always have.

            • Missionary Kid

              I deserved that. Ouch. 😉

            • Spackle Motion

              You forgot one:

              “Has poor grammar and spelling skills, which usually point to an arrested education”. The clams almost always give themselves away with their horrid, nails on chalkboard grammar.

            • Missionary Kid

              When I wrote that, I was being suspicious of Moonshot, and tailored the list to him, and because he’s fairly well written, I left it off. Subsequently, I’ve come to believe he’s not so much of a bad guy, and that he’s a reasonable person who I just disagree with.

            • ThetaBara

              Is a meanie!

          • Kim O’Brien

            oh for fuck sake…you sound over the top ridiculous .

            • monkeyknickers

              Seriously – if you’re gonna front at least be less completely obvious.

            • GlibWog

              WTH are ya saying Monk.. Shorthand..hahaha

        • Robert Eckert

          I think Moonshot is just another Marcabian troll.

          • Missionary Kid

            Refresh and look at my answer to the Moony.

          • Moonshot

            Obviously, anyone who holds a contrary opinion to yours must be a troll.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, plenty of people hold contrary opinions to mine without expressing themselves trollishly. However, I apologize for thinking you were a “Marcabian” (one who spoofs the Scilon state of mind); you are clearly a genuine victim of the mindfuck.

            • Moonshot

              I dont think i’m mindfucked.

              I have fully rejected a great deal of what LRH promoted. All of the Admin tech. On the spiritual side, i’m only saying, what i studies so far, there is a great deal i have liked. I haven’t done any of the OT3 stuff or any of the above. From what i have read of it on the interenet, i have to say, that stuff looks pretty nutty.

              I am on no crusade to spread what i found to be good in Scientology.

              The only thing i object to on this thread is the knee jerk and offensive statement that anyone ever involved is some sort of whack job or gullble fool. Or that anyone who believes in even one thing that LRH taught is also a fool or Marcabian or whatever.

              I agree totally that the Cof$ is a bad operation hurting people and needs to be stopped.

              I’m just trying to communicate that many who did get invovled had a very good experience in the beginning that motivated them to stick around longer than they should have and that, even after they leave and reject much of LRH, still may have a warm spot for what they found good in the beginning.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hey there Moonshot! SO glad to hear that that stuff you have read on the internet above OT3 looks pretty nutty to you. You are off to a good start. The reason you get such knee jerk and “offensive” statements is because you are only focusing on the wins that you had, without seeing the bigger picture. You are asking a group of people that are very well-educated and well-read (academically, as well as on LRH and the tech) to pat you on the head when you truly do not appreciate the big picture. It’s like you saying that Santa Clause is great because he gave you a candy cane, but what you don’t know (but should know) is that he then raped a lot of women, killed a lot of men, and enslaved most of the children in your hometown. And so you show up at the funeral and want us to say how glad we are for you. Again, you really need to get a real education. Until you learn critically thinking skills and read as much psychology as you have LRH, you will not even realize how ignorant you really are. And I mean that with a warm heart and in a COMPASSIONATE way.

            • GlibWog

              Good response Hemet.. ( still don’t know your avatar..) ha.. I don’t know if it is my eyes or what?

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Thanks GW. I wanted someone foppish, but relevant, and came across the pic. Its someone that most here would be familiar with, but not those in the church.

            • GlibWog

              hmmmm .. are you ever going to tell me? ha.. I liked your dialogue with Moon.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I am hoping that someone will notice who it is or figure it out. And I guess I do enjoy the mystery dimension. I thought you handled moon wonderfully as well, with much compassion, which all exes especially need. But I must say that I can’t go a long with the past life beliefs, which make as much sense to me as Xenu. And there are much, much better neuroscientific explanations for dissociative phenomena. There really is no good reason to resort to supernatural explanations for psychiatric or neurological symptoms. You might want to check out Steven novella’s neurologica blog. There is also a great podcast called “you’re not so smart” that I have especially needed, I mean, enjoyed. Cheers!

            • GlibWog

              Ok well I won’t spoil your little game.. TR was the best i came up with.. hmmmm

              Oh I know.. ( about the past life beliefs..) I absolutely don’t buy the Hubs version. .. but my experience with the Russian language I just couldn’t make any sense out of it.. how would any neurological issue explain it?

              How can you explain a small child who climbs on the piano bench and plays Beethoven’s 5th. There are a lot of things that are unexplainable. OH well.. that’s what I love about life you learn something new everyday.

              Yes there is a good reason to resort to Supernatural explanations.. It’s fun! You sound like my husband when I told him we had a ghost in the house.. Jeeze..

              Proof? ha… It reminds me of Graffiti I read once..

              ” I don’t go in for all that Astrology Bull Shit.. We Virgos aren’t easily persuaded..” hahah

              I will check out your recommended readings.. Let me check my horoscope first..hahaha

            • GlibWog

              Moonshot.. I am very serious here when I ask you this.

              We are all open to hearing.. What is the good stuff? The Spiritual Side…

              Yes.. I researched it and had to study it in the early 70’s in college. I did’n’t get it then I don’t get it now. I am an intelligent woman. Help me understand what the good is.

              How is it different than say sitting down in therapy and discussing an issue?

            • Moonshot

              Well, to be honest GW, if i really answer you, i feel i will be attacked at preaching for something, so i’m not inclined to go into great detail. Mostly what i liked was the very basic concepts or precepts of the subject. The basics of the Tone Scale, ARC Triangle, and the Cycle of Communication. These things may seem simple to you, but for a young person, and one with a rather bookish and introverted personality, these things were helpful and even revelatory.
              Furthermore, i liked the idea of past lives and an eternal spirit. Things not exactly exclusive to SCN.
              I had therapy when i was in high school. I was forced to do this i guess by court order as my parents were divorcing. That was my mothers story anyway. The therapy was ok, my therapist was a very nice lady and obviously cared about me. But i cant say that talking with her was any more helpful than venting or talking to good friends. The SCN stuff, was much more methodical, and at the end of the process, personally revelatory. I would say, dramatic emotional release.
              Does such a positve exerience justify all the manifest abuses of the churh or validate the majority of the “spiritual tech” that i have no personal knowledge of? Not at all. But what i did in the beginning, i enjoyed and found helpful.

            • GlibWog

              First Moonshot. You can be honest with me.

              I am friendly but not social so understand the introversion. I believe in Past lives.. I do. Not in the Hubbard way, but in a way that is difficult to explain.

              I worked in Mental Health with a Patient who spoke fluid Russian. She had never been to Russia . She had never studied Russian. She was diagnosed with Multi personality disorder ( during the 80s) Today it is Dissociative Identity Disorder .

              .and one of her personalities was a Russian Woman.

              Now this disorder is like UFOs ..You either believe or you don’t.

              I do because I obviously have seen one first hand. And how would one explain the speaking Russian part without linking it to Past lives?

              I believe in the eternal spirit also.. I am extremely spiritual and believe that I have a white love coming into as love and a white light going out of me as love.

              Yes.. Therapy can be exactly as you describe. Sometimes one does NOT have a good friend or family member that they can connect to.

              To hear your experience with Scn. I do hear your passion come through. Your awakening.

              Moon. I am glad that you are out. I am glad that you had a better experience than others I have read. I would not doubt you that would be like calling you a liar and I would not do that. I am glad that you are here.

              My dramatic emotional release came through the grieving process with my identical twin.

              I survived her death.. and you survived leaving Scn. You are proof that it it worked for you at one time and that you are out.

            • Moonshot

              GW, you’ve had some very interesting experiences. The case of that russian speaking girl is fascinating.
              I also had a very tramatic loss of someone close to me when i was young. I repressed it fantastically. My first Auditing in SCN was a thing called “Life Repair.” That process dug up that loss and allowed me to deal with it.
              At the time it was tremendoulsy relieving and seemed like a miracle to me. Now, with greater knowledge of life and other practices outside SCN, i understand this thing could have been simiilarly unrepressed by a competent psychotherapist. But, that said, it did happen and did hellp me.
              Yes, you are right, some of the same basic principals of SCN that i believed in, forced me to conclude the Church was doing bad things and acting contrary to what i believed to be right after reading about all the pain and abuse so many have suffered as a result of church policy and action.

            • GlibWog

              Yep.. That Russian Girl Was quite the trip. Had I not experienced it for myself I would NOT have believed it.

              I am sorry you had a traumatic loss at a young age. I am also happy that your Auditing assisted you in dealing with it. The way that you were enlightened with the fact that you could have been helped with a competent psychotherapist is music to my ears.

              Moon.. I am so glad that you are here. You truly are a voice to those who believe that the tech had helped them .

              In fact I had a light bulb moment while reading your post.

              I have been so hell bent in criticizing those who have said that the tech worked for them at one time. ( BECAUSE OF MY HATRED TOWARDS LRH AND DM ) Who in the hell am I to say that it didn’t? It was a different time in your life..

              and NOW YOU ARE OUT.. and I am glad that you are out.

              I respect and admire Jason Beghe and even he said that it worked for him at one time. Yet I have gotten all high and mighty with those who have repeated the same words.

              What we all need to do Moon. Is listen to each other. Listen to each others viewpoints respectfully.. Like we have been doing.

              and maybe just maybe others who have been lurking and thinking .. and having doubts will leave too.

              Or if not leave right away ..process the information that is given..

              We are all like Ducks gliding across the water and underneath we are paddling like hell to stay afloat.

              I am glad that we have talked Moon. I am glad that you are here with us.

            • Moonshot

              Thanks for that GW.

              Yes, the auditing can work and help some poeple with stuff. Not saying its the spiritual End All and Be All the CofS claims. But whatever “wins” it gave me, certainly doesnt give the Church the right to demand subserviance or to direct the rest of my life.

              If they were truly the humanitarians they claim, DM and the Sea Org, then the help and any wins the Church gave me would be their main reward. But thats not the way it is. They want Obedience and MONEY. And ever increasing amounts of both.

              But take heart GW, most of the people ever invovled with the Church are, at best on “inactive” status. But, the way they got things set up with Disconnection and the rest of it, is pretty diabolicaly brilliant.

              I left in 08. But what that means is, “in my own mind and heart.” I still have several friends who are still in. These are people i care deeply about. If i just tell them my viewpoint and that i no longer believe in or have allegience to the Church, they would cut me off in a heart beat. You might say, “well good riddance, not much of a friend there.”

              Well, what can i say? I care about these people and hope to be there when they want more help or information. They know i’m not active. The freinds i had that are very active at FLAG, those i’ve already written off. Constant contact with them, would just result in probing questions and “invitations” to particiapate. The couple people i still maintain communication with, like i was for a long time,are on the fringe and not active in any meaningful way.But still i cant broach this subject until they do it first.

              But thank God i never made any children with a Scientologist. What a fucked up scene that would be if i had. Jeez, then i would have the choice either getiing my kid disconnected from me or having to be a secret apostate for potentially the rest of my life. What a fucked up nasty “church.”

            • GlibWog

              You know Moon.. I am just happy that you are sharing so candidly. There is a gentleman who is in the Bunker who is taking steps out..

              I don’t think you have any idea how many people you can connect with who are on the fence about leaving. I would never say, ” Well good riddance, not much of a friend there. ” Seriously Moon..

              Because first off I have acquaintances but very few friends. Actually I have 2 close friends that I have known for 45 + years that if they asked I would bury a body for and not ask questions. So to write them off would be impossible. It would be easier to remove my kidney.

              I can NOT state enough.. YOU are NOT in.. OMG.. fabulous that you figured it out.. and you also have figured out how to keep your valuable friendships going. Good for you.

              Yes.. to the ones you have written off. I understand completely.. My greatest strength has been knowing when to ” Fold ’em.”

              So many people are in the last scenario that you described.. Ugh.. My heart breaks for the ones with children that have been forced to disconnect.

              That is why people will react to those who attribute anything positive to the Tech.. They have lost their family, their homes, businesses , money, sanity.. etc. because of this Fuckin Evil Cult. And Tech represents LRH Con Man Evil Liar…

              So just know not to approach the subject gently. It is very painful to many. I know these people. They are good people. I have lurked with them since the Village Voice.

              We are here to support each other with the intent of seeing this evil cult be exposed for what it is. And it sounds like you would be a great asset. xo Glibby

            • Spackle Motion

              Have fun trying to convince people that there is some ‘good’ in an organization that abuses people, commits fraud every single day it exists, kills childhoods, forces minors into hard manual labor, obstructs justice, has direct and indirect involvement in numerous homicides (including McPherson and Kyle Brennan), harasses people that want to leave, abuses people that dare to speak out against these abuses, commits elder abuse, and sells medical quackery and negligence of duty that led to many untimely deaths.

              Ya….good luck with trying to convince people that there is good in Scientology.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Actually, Moonshot is the offspring of the engineer on the locomotive on Venus that Eller H almost got stuck by, while carousing around Venus, as once he lectured/recorded. Decades later, Moonshot became a scientific scientologist, trolling fringes of Internet.

      • shasha40

        They’re still Scientologist and LRH is their God and the savior of mankind . I don’t have the patience, over 50 years in existance and there’s still crime and war etc. I don’t think I could believe in it any more , not even 1 city cleared ???

        • Victoria Pandora

          Well, that is why they need young people. And every push, it THE ONE. They are in the throes of that right now with Gat 2 and Superpower.
          They have had only half a century to save the planet. things are moving faster than ever, ten times, straight up… and on it goes.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          A cleared planet?!? Yeah right. Not even zip code 90069 (PAC base, Los Angeles CA) cleared. Not even zip 90028 (Celebrity Center, Hollywood CA) cleared. Not even zip code 33755 (Flag Service Org Hotel & SuperPower Building, Clearwater FL) cleared. And CoS members are all in a trance, each one, regarding the imminent ‘clearing of the planet’ !!

          • Casabeca

            You would think int base in Hemet might be that utopia of Clear, right? Yeah, according to Marc, Claire, Marty, Mike…not so much.

          • GlibWog

            Etcetera, Etcetera Dwarf… And The Beat Goes On..( Sonny and Cher)

          • shasha40

            Well after all these years , you have to give them credit for wrecking peoples lives . I wonder what the stats are on that .

      • kemist

        I’m afraid it won’t change a single thing.

        There are still mormons even though newspaper articles about Joseph Smith’s various other frauds can be easily found in libraries.

        Religions are not rational, and you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

        • Vistaril

          I’m not so sure. While this latest exposure of L Ron Hubbard’s creative plagiarism may not, of itself, lead an Indie to rational thought about the subject, it is yet another documented fact to add to the mountain of data concerning the fraudulent nature of Scientology and its “source”. Without the cult infrastructure required to maintain the mindfuck, the cognitive dissonance eventually recedes, especially if Exes stay off the hypno-cans and unlearn the Scilon-speak. As reality begins to crack open their “certainty”, it also becomes apparent that Scientology is as much a religion as the Mafia is an Italian/American social club.

          Another critic up there with Jon, is Arnie Lerma. He describes a Ten Step process Scientologists go through in removing themselves from L Ron Hubbard’s Bridge To Xenu:

          1) There is something wrong here, if this is so great, then why is (______) going on?

          2) The guys at the top must be crazy

          3) Miscavige and crew are evil demons from another dimension

          4) Hubbard went crazy at the end …..

          5) Hubbard went crazy in 1966

          6) Hubbard was mad from the start.

          7) This whole thing is a complete fraud

          8) my god, its a criminal organization . . . with criminal convictions all over the world . . . and it was only about money

          9) realization that THERE ARE NO OT’s THERE!

          10) realizing, after leaving Scientology, this makes one an ex-nazi and wanting to do something about it

          . . . while it still takes some sort of deeply personal “final straw” for the momentum to gather, its the steady soaking up of the facts like those presented here today which propels the individual through to the end.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            These latest exposures do add to the mountain of data, as you describe but- that mountain does not at al dissolve the cult infastrucure. It dents it, but Scienos are continually shielded willingly from a view of the data mountain. Not so optimistic as you, V.

            • GlibWog

              Dwarf.. Ya Know.. These Younguns comin in? I imagine they are a much different Caliber from the generations that preceeded them.

              Like me.. Searching in the 60’s exploring ” Why Am I here.. What is my purpose” ( My parents ( Donna Reed Generation) Didn’t give a shit while they were here.. they just tried to feed us…

              Our generation ( Baby boomers) .. Viet Name, Conflicts, Campus Unrests, Protests , JFK assassinated etc. We were explorers ..innerself

              This generation.. Tuned in and plugged in. Sure they were groomed, but ( and it’s a Big But) They know that there is MORE out there..

              and when their Grandparents.. parents blow it is hard for me to imagine them doing manual labor under the conditions that are being presented at the present time.

              Plus New Fish? May come .. Won’t stay..

          • Madora Pennington

            What a laugh!!!!! We did this, except #9 was #1. Actually, we said to each other, people who have done the OT stuff are in really bad shape. No thanks.

            I’ve heard Arnie Lerma accuse Scientology of being hypnotic. I disagree, except for maybe people that can get hypnotized by just about anything, like playing video games, online shopping. I see that Scientology got people to INTELLECTUALLY consent to give up critical thinking. Seems like a bigger deal than cults that use “faith.”

            • GlibWog

              Madora.. First Welcome.

              As a Never In it is difficult for me to assess if SCN is hypnotic or your theory. The reading that I have done it appears to be a combination of both.

              Of course throw in Stress.. Living Conditions.. No sleep.. Pressure for stats etc.. you got just a gobbley goop stew of MINDFUCK..

          • GlibWog

            Excellent Summation of facts. I love the ” Final Straw ” .. and you know Vis.. I can almost hear those Straws dropping.

            Super Powers?… I think after that big Ta Do.. there will be a lot of Last Straws..

        • Kim O’Brien

          true, but since the internet ,young people have left the mormon church too …in droves. Baby making is down in the mormon community…plus …as always …two words that go well together ….SOUTH PARK 😉 those guys did an award winning broadway musical.

          • kemist

            One can hope 🙂

            It’s true that the “nones” (as in, the people who profess no religious affiliation) are the fastest growing demographic since the advent of the internet. Having so much information out there sure doesn’t help maintaining high levels of cognitive dissonance.

            • AintMiaBahavin

              Kemist i dont know if so much as nones as in non believers or more along the lines like me

          • Missionary Kid

            The funny thing is, the Mormons seem to love South Park, and one of the actors in the original cast is a Mormon.

      • villagedianne

        Hubbard did not just steal from Psychiatry. He stole from spiritual philosophies as well. He also stole from people working with him, and claimed it as his own. Study tech, for example.
        However, if the “indies” can cherry-pick the tech, and practice it without abusing or exploiting people, I will have no problem with them.

        • WildaBeast

          “However, if the “indies” can cherry-pick the tech, and practice it
          without abusing or exploiting people, I will have no problem with them.”

          Me neither, dianne. I just wonder whether or not that’s possible. I honestly don’t know whether, if the indies managed to remove all that was hateful and poisonous and harmful from the tech, there would be enough left to do anything coherent with. If they can, more power to them – but then I hope they start honouring themselves, rather than Elron, because picking all the awfulness out of the tech and leaving enough behind to work with is a far greater achievement than anything Elron ever managed!

          • ze moo

            Ultimately; $cientology is the worship of the wit and wisdom of Lrooon. All CO$ adherents claim to worship the ‘tech’ and the man, but they really just worship the man. If the führer can repackage the turd and send everyone back 2 or 3 steps to ‘relearn’ the newly polished turd, you are worshiping the man, not the ‘tech’.

            • WildaBeast

              I agree, ze moo. That, in the end, is what I think is so hopelessly poisonous about the {tech}. I don’t see how you can keep any coherent portion of the {tech} without hanging onto the worship of Elron. It’s so deeply embedded in everything he ever wrote: “Love me! Worship me! Pay attention to me!” And worshiping Elron is unavoidably damaging, I think, because you’re worshiping someone who was pretty demonstrably evil. People don’t like to worship evil things, mostly, so they try to say that Elron wasn’t evil…and the cognitive dissonance starts up again. It looks like a trap with no exit to me, but if the indies can find a way out of it, then good for them.

            • Moonshot

              You can think what ever you want, doesnt mean you know what your talking about. I was involved wth Scientology for 20 years, and never for one minute of that time did i “worship” LRH or think he was any kind of God.

              Before flapping your gums, you might want to do some actual research. I agree with you 100% that the Admiinstrative portion of LRH “tech” is beyond saving and can safely put chucked into the dust bin of history. It just has too much crazy shit, and even alot that isnt crazy, is just too damn easily abused by your “evil” people.

              The spiritual tech, is another matter. All of that that i have personally studied, i found to be pretty cool and in no way “evil.” That is because the spiritual tech pretty much leads a person to not tolerate any sort of system that enslaves them. Which is ironic, because, this is exactly what the Admin tech does.

              That is the true source of cognative dissonance within Scientology. Spiritual tech is freeing vs Admin tech which is enslaving. The “Admin” gestapo types within the Church push LRH the Infalliable, in order to quell the Spiritualists natural push towards freedom and to get them to submit, despite what the “Spiritual Tech” has taught them.

              But, you are probably a moron who simply discounts the informed opinion of someone who knows the subject, simply because that person has actually studied that subject (your type actually reminds me of alot of Sea Org enforcers i’ve come accross, people wholly ignorant of the wider world, yet ready to pass sweeping judgement over it), so i dont expect this discourse to affect you thinking on the matter. Being an ignorant, illinfomred, yet opionated gum flapper is much easier than doing actual research.

            • Missionary Kid

              Can you point to any publication of LRH’s research? Where are his case studies and notes on the supposedly large number of people he treated. There are none, aside from what he claimed to have done.

            • Moonshot

              Are you talking about independent studies of his Tech? Why would i want to do that? If your talking about his publications, then your refrences are the Red Volumes (spiritual tech) and Green Volumes (Admin Tech), and the Blue volumes (Reasearch and Discovery Vols that supposedly have alot of the raw research data). I’m sure you can get all that stuff cheap on ebay.

              i am not trying to defend any of LRH’s work to anyone. You think its all bullshit? Fine, i can respect that, i have no desire to convert you. I would, however, just suggest that you open your mind to the point where you can acknowlege that there is something there that some people might believe or like and in all good faith and with no desire to hurt or enslave anyone else.

              I’m merely positiing in these posts that the Spiritual Tech and Admin tech are seperable and that, in general, the Spiritual Tech is freeing in nature and many like it (its this apsect that hooks people), while the Admin Tech has the crazy shit that perpetuates evil done by the church.

            • Missionary Kid

              {Spiritual Tech} is bullshit to me because LRH based everything on outmoded ways of dealing with human psychology, and occasionally copied things that were going on int the rest of the contemporary “psych” world.

              To use anything that LRH preached, is similar to having a heart transplant done with 1950s or even 1960s methods. A lot has been learned in the meantime, and the operation will end up with a fatality. That’s how outmoded LRH’s work is. It’s not only old fashioned, it’s dangerous.

              You are basing everything on the faith that LRH actually did some research. The only research he did was anecdotal, and even then it’s skimpy, and NEVER peer reviewed. Where are his notes,so that others can verify that he actually did research?

              He made claims for miraculous recoveries, but so do faith healers, who, under scrutiny, can’t produce consistent positive results.

              You obviously haven’t been paying attention to what Jon Atack has been saying. Open up your mind. I’ve been exposed to Dianetics for over 50 years, and it’s still bullshit, promulgated by a con man.

              You also are apparently unread on basic psychology and counseling. If you were, you’d find that LRH’s methods are, at best, cruel. BTW, if you do start to study psychology, use the commonly accepted definitions, not LRH’s made up or perverted ones.

            • Moonshot

              Missionary, you seem to insist on misreading what i’m saying. I am not trying to make a case that the Spiritual tech is the best, effective, or should be preserved.

              My only point is that is relatively harmless. If you sperate it out from all the other crap, it would not be the harmful social virus that is the Church of Scientology. The people invovled with it, could do something of personal and social benefit with it.

              Indie practitioners out there just using the Spiritual Tech will not seek, by and large, seek to entrap people as the philosophy they practice is very much against that.

              There are also indie practioners out there, who still swallow the whole pile of shit. They insist that if you believe LRH on the Spiritual Tech, then you must believe him on the Admin Tech. These people are the same menace as is the current Cof$ as they would always have the potential to put together another opertion functionally indestinguishable from the Mother Church.

              Missionary, i am happy to agree to disagree with you on the validity of the Spiritual Tech. For myself, i just like what i’ve done so far, which is relatively low level. From what i have read of the OT3 and above stufff, seems a nutty to me. But i have friends that swear if u actually audit on the stuff, it works.

              But folks such as yourself denigrating people like me who actually have some involvement in the SCN community, who are either working towards or are supporting those who are trying to defang the movement and eliminate all the nasty shit (crazy pricing, disconnection, fair game, ethics tech, etc) seems counter productive if your goal is actually stopping the abuse.

              Thats all. If i came off as rude, i’m sorry. I just had an emotional reaction to the offensive tone and commentary i came across.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, that’s a much more reasonable reply.

              There are people who often enough drop in here who are convinced that they can impart some wisdom, from a $cientology point of view, even if they are no longer associated with Co$. We are wary of them, and we rough them up if they try to deflect questions and comments and just keep spouting LRH based viewpoints and don’t listen.

              You walked into that buzz saw.

              Unfortunately, as a person who is probably an ex, you appear to have reacted in the old $cientology mold. It’s natural.

              I’ve been writing a much longer reply to you which will be posted shortly.

            • Casabeca

              I think we have a common enemy, but we are not enemies.
              Best wishes on your journey.

            • monkeyknickers

              I can’t believe I didn’t see this comment ’til now.

              YES! YES YES!

            • Casabeca

              Are you washing your hair with that herbal shampoo again?
              ;-D
              Right back atcha!

            • Kim O’Brien

              i find scientology offensive. You think alien souls are attached to you ..that your brain is just a blob ..that if everyone was a scientologist …( real ones ,ya know …like you of course )the world would be free from crime and insanity ( ya know …part of the things that make us human as opposed to Tom Crusie ) I think that is retarded. That is my right …i have done my research …outside of this blog ..and in bookstores ( cause you can’t find that hubbard crap in a library ..another fyi ..fyi ) Bragging about being in a cult is a bit strange. I mean if ANY all the tech worked ….how was that ” gestapo” aspect of it hidden from all you in tune spiritual people ? They were right there with you …and yet ..not one OT or clear or whatever …picked up on it until “later” . Why don;t they ever use their special body leaving power to find missing children ? Or ..stop a man from beating his wife ..or say something easy ..like stop someone from stealing a car . The whole lot of you are just flat out selfish and lazy. Even Aquaman worked overtime …like ON LAND.

            • ThetaBara

              Why do so many of them still need to wear GLASSES?!
              That is NOT at cause over MEST!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              >>>>if you actually audit on the stuff [OT3 and above] it works.
              Virtually no one not a Scieno actually believes auditing BTs (e.g. The Thetans and clusters of Thetans, from dead space aliens, brought to Earth by Xenu 75 million years ago) is anything more than (1) imagining you have made contact with a BT or cluster, (2) telepathically communicate incident one to the BT or cluster and imagine a reaction from your imaginary BT, (3) telepathically communicate incident three to the Poor dead soul(s) and imagine a reaction from your imaginary cluster or BT, and (4) if necessary use your “Thetan hand” which you create in your imagination, and scrape the poor buggers you have imagined off/out of you.
              Sounds like something you should try. Like audit those dead space aliens 5 years every day on OT 7. That should help you, Moonsht, get many, many wins.

            • ThetaBara

              Actually, OT 8 says that the body thetans you spent all that money “auditing” away were all in your mind. LOL!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Oh, yes, thanks TBara! Doesn’t OT8 end with > Now- after approx. $300,000- you know who you are not !! You can’t make that shite up!!

            • Eivol Ekdal

              See for those never in, Admin Tech and Spiritual Tech are inseparable, and for people in organised Scientology it is the same. You work with an auditor who does a great deal of Admin with your case while you are ‘freed’ Spiritually and the wins are only valid within a Scientology mindset. You learn how to control while learning how to be controlled. There is no problem with saying that some of the Tech has value outside of Scientology. Even some of the most evil, controlling regimes have had their successes. Just ask anyone who drives a Volkswagon.

            • ThetaBara

              Why would you NOT want to look at independent studies? That’s ACTUAL science.

              Also: lurk moar and quit being such a meanie. Thank you!

              ML, ThetaBara

            • Kim O’Brien

              Before flapping your gums …you might want to realize that a large portion of people here have been following Tony’s work on this cult for years ..so telling someone to go “do some research” is just flat condescending. More people are involved with being a Jedi but hey ..if you want to be the defender of ANY part of this cult …and how great it was for YOU so hay everybody else take a hike …is also condescending ….but knock yourself out. You were in an ACTUAL cult ..you fell for it hook line and sinker …who gets involved with an “organization” where one feels like part of it is the freaking gestapo ??

              p.s that makes you the kind of creepy one …just fyi

            • Moonshot

              Sorry, but as much as i admire and appreciate Tony’s work “follwing” him for years doesnt not constitute research on your part. Tony has done research, you are just consuming some of his reporting and what he has found. You might want to get all the books and read them yourself. Get the Red volumes and read those. Then read all the Green Admin volumes. Then you tell me what you see.

              There is a reason many good people get hooked into this relegion, and it is people like me, if you had the capacity to get past your bigotry, who can inform you about it.

              For most of my involvment i did not believe it to be a “getapo” organization. Prior to wide dissemination via the internet, most of the information that would lead one to conclude that it is a gestapo operation was not available. This is also true because most lay Scientologist have minimal exposure to the Admin Tech as they are not on staff.

              As it did become available, and as i connected it with obsrvations i had made over time, i had to come to this conclusion and i pulled out. What more you want from someone?

              So, it is condensending for me not to give up closely held spiritual beliefs simply because an asshole like you proclaims them to be “evil” or whatrever? Get real fool.

            • Kim O’Brien

              if ANY part of tech was legit and worked ..we not would be here having this conversation…cause the tech would work …and all that knowingness and stuff would just be known … and in a knowing kind of way …know what i mean ?

              You have been conned …and you are trying to con others . ” hey ..join a cult to know about a cult ” ..right up there with ..”hey ..date a guy who beats the crap out of you so you can appreciate it when you meet a guy who only punches you when he’s drunk and that ‘s hardly ever”

              I understand that you think i am a fool …but hey ….at least my stupid came free of charge …and you STILL are kind of creepy . I say get on a city bus a spread the knowingness …see what kind of response you get

            • Robert Eckert

              What you fail to see is that this “spiritual” tech has turned you repulsive, rather than “freeing” you in any real sense. This is something we have seen before, over and over, along with the absence of self-awareness that prevents you yourself from seeing it.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              YO! Moonshot. I’m hearing ya, and I am with you. Don’t let these ignorant, gum flapping, condescending, moronic, Ortega-worshiping, fools make you question what you know. You are just trying to point out the good side of LRH, that you got some wins, and that there are some good things in the tech. I don’t doubt you on this. I’m also very glad that you got out of the cult. In fact, most people here are glad for you on that. They also would not take away your right to believe any crazy thing you want. But that doesn’t mean they won’t ridicule your crazy beliefs and rip you to shreds for saying anything good about LRH, without fully demonstrating that you truly appreciate the down side of his system. Moonshot, I think that you will find that, the more you read and educate yourself (not just on the anti-scientology stuff, but on basic critical thinking skills) the more likely it is that you will come to see that, when you put everything on the scales, the negatives out weigh the positives to an extreme degree. Again, that doesn’t mean that you can’t hold onto the wins that you got when you were in (and you probably need to hold onto some of them, otherwise you might get seriously clinically depressed). It is kinda like you busted into synagogue and start singing the praises how Hitler made the trains run on time. Oh yeah, and then insulted people when they don’t feel you.
              Again, keep reading and educating yourself, especially in critical thinking skills. What has real science learned about the mind and our cognitive biases? If you really spend some time on that, I think you will better appreciate the group here. GOOD LUCK, MOODSHOT. Say hello to Betty for me!

            • Moonshot

              Thanks Sir Hemet, you are correct in that i didnt realize before replying that this is something of a “click” thread. Really, there is nothing i can say to alot of you folks that will be looked through the prism of those vaunted “critical thinking” skills you speak off. I get that now. I appoligize for responding in same tone as the already ‘accepted” and “known” posters.

            • monkeyknickers

              Please don’t apologize, and please keep posting your POV. You have a dissenting opinion and that’s a good thing. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we all get really really sad when we go to the Indie Sci blogs and see people swarm on anti Hubbard comments like piranhas.

              My advice tho is that you don’t call people names. Especially on your first post. PLENTY of time to pick a bone later. 🙂 And especially the name calling will not go over well when Kimmy is on deck. She has a pretty much 0% tolerance policy for stuff like that.

              Anyhow, do keep posting your opinion here, please. I’m interested. I may not agree, but I’m interested in your thoughts.

              Just please don’t call me a moron or I’ll cry.

              And do you want to make a single pregnant girl cry?

              NO YOU DON’T

              :)))

            • Missionary Kid

              Geeze, MK, you are one hell of a manipulator. What he doesn’t realize is that for some pregnant women, at the wrong time, they will cry at the turning on of the refrigerator light when the door is opened. They are also tough as hell, and if improperly aroused will take on a pride of lions.

              Hey, wait a minute, I’m like that at times, too, and I’m not pregnant.

            • monkeyknickers

              HA! I just saw this right now!! 🙂 (FUCK DISQUS)

              Dog food commercials, presently = a wave of tears. It really has been a bitch 🙂

              But what do you mean when you say I’m a “manipulator”? I never EVER say what I don’t mean. Did I do something stupid and not notice???? 🙁 Please advice, luv. !!

            • Missionary Kid

              You wrote “Just please don’t call me a moron or I’ll cry.

              And do you want to make a single pregnant girl cry?”

              I’d call that manipulation. 😉

              I was ribbing you. It’s nothing stupid.

            • monkeyknickers

              HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

              I’d forgotten about that sentence!!

              Please sweetheart – rib me as much you as you like. It’s funny and we like each other and so on.

              I just fear I’ve inadvertently been an asshole.

              So I ask not at all with anger, but with camaraderie cuzzin I know you’ll give it to me straight up. I have no fear of criticism. I’m only afraid of not understanding a situation well enough.

              ANYHOW.

              We seem to be on the board at the same times feekerently. Say . . . . . are you living two doors down?

              🙂

            • Missionary Kid

              There’s no problem with you being thought of as being an asshole. Us Bunkerites know what your situation is, and we’ll let you know if you’re being one.

              I guess because my mom dealt with pregnant women all the time (while I was growing up, she worked in hospitals in labor and delivery) and my dad was never nervous around them, I’m not nervous around them, so expect J & D about the two gymnasts that presently are possessing your body. If I get out of line, I’m sure you’ll let me know if I’m being an asshole.

              On the other hand, I don’t have a fetish about PG women, like the Allen character on 2 & a half men. The episodes where it is a part of the script are a hoot.

              What I did learn from my wife’s pregnancy is that people come up to pregnant women and tell them all the horror stories or problems they experienced with their or their wife’s childbirth. (The same type of thing happens when one has a cast on or has some other indication of a medical procedure. They’ll ask what happened, then tell you their story.)

              I wasn’t prepared for the demon possession of my wife that took place in the delivery room just before birth. I could do nothing right, and she turned vicious, verbally. It was almost like a scene form The Exorcist.

              One of my college roommates showed up at the hospital with his pregnant wife for his son’s birth, just as we were leaving, so I warned him, and I warn every man that it can happen. I understand it’s all a part of being pissed off at the pain, and that I was just someone she could vent on.

              I know now that it was just the final act of the emotional roller coaster that comes with pregnancy.

            • Moonshot

              Monkey, you’re of course right. After a stressfull (though productive) week at work, i was in no mood to be called a “gullible fool” or a “wack-job.” I am neither of these things. I reacted emotionally.

              In all fairness, i should not have reacted personally to this. For those with no personal exposure to Scientology, or whose only exposure was to have close friends or family taken from them, or to have seen them harmed, it is easy to see how intolerant, or even offensive attitutes, could develop.

              Also, i see now that there is a community here, and therefor socialisation rules apply, beyond simply “right” or “wrong.” I’m the newbie here, and the onus is on me to be more respectful of the general situation.

              Thank you for your kind words, and i will take your advice to heart. I will neither abandon this board, or become some sort of vendetta sniper.

              I apologize to all for my unkind words, and i stand corrected.

              In the future i will simply ignore obviously over the top or apparently bigoted commentary, and reply and post where i might make a contribution.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Great post Moonshot! Glad to have you aboard. You will learn a lot here. I know I have!

            • Moonshot

              Thank you for the welcome Sir Hemet. I already have learned alot from this site and look forward to learning more.

              The information that Tony posts is of the highest quality and value, and i am amazed at the quality and quanity of much of the information presented by the posters. For anyone interested in the SCN subject, there is no question that this is a very high value website. And for those who simply wish to drive a stake through the heart of all things Scientology, dont worry its happening.

              The information super-highway is that stake. The orgs are empty. Had i developed my first interest in SCN after the internet came along, i’m sure i would have avoided the subject entrirely, whatever any remaining fondness i may now hold for any part of LRH tech.

            • GlibWog

              Moonshot.. Yes.. Welcome.. All are welcome.. Just be nice OK..

              We just are a bunch of people from all walks of life.. with different experiences .. sharing information… Venting.. forming friendships and laughing a long the way at the Craziness in which is Scn.

              If you disagree with us.. It’s all good.. Name calling isn’t nice.

            • monkeyknickers

              And I have to say you’re right Hemet. The amount of ass-kissing Tony on this blog is pretty serious. That being said, I FOR SURE bet he hates it too. To curry that kind of adoration would be like . . . . . I dunno. Starting a cult. :)) He makes mistakes all the time like the rest of us. But I sincerely don’t think he’s as insecure as that, needing subservience from strangers . . . . .

              Obviously, I don’t know him (he doesn’t know this but we’ve met twice. :))) but this is my gut on him.

              And . . . isn’t it awesome how I know EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING??? Wow! I should be in the White House nerve center, telling everybody what to do!

              Yikes. Argh. Sigh.

              So . . . . . yeah.

            • monkeyknickers

              I’m so so glad Moonshot.

              And you’re right – being called a wack-job is lame . . . . . but on some level . . . . these people are reacting emotionally too. Because (and again I think I can speak for everyone) we really care about the issue. I definitely do. My sister got sucked in.

              So in fairness, expect occasional moments of spectacular rudeness. But it’s nothing. We really want to hear what you have to say.

              Welcome to this community. 🙂

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              No real need for apology, but they way that you ‘apologized’ suggests that you do NOT get it. Yet (Although your recent post suggests that you have potential!). Critical thinking skills should indeed be vaunted, but using such skill is more like removing prisms rather than putting on a different pair. Believing that critical thinking skills are just another prism is something like thinking that a good education is just brain washing.

              This group is not nearly as much of clique as you think. Here are a couple of thought-stopping mind tricks that you need to learn about. One is the use of “its just…” or “its nothing but,” to dismiss an argument. Politicians use it all the time. I used it above, and you used it by suggesting that this is a clique group, that there is nothing that you can say that won’t be distorted, and that there is predetermined emotional tone that you need to adopt to be accepted by the group. When ever you hear someone suggest that “its just____, and that’s all there is to it” a little bell should go off in your head that someone is trying to pull something over on you. Another trick is “all or nothing” type thinking. It is correct to say that this group has elements of a clique, and also that there is a predetermined emotional tone of this group. ALL social groups have such elements, but not to the same degree. I think that most fair minded people, with good critical thinking skills, would recognize that the pressures to conform to group-think here are relatively very low (whereas, compared to any cult, the pressure is extreme). But to dismiss the information and feedback from the group just because those social forces exist would be all-or-nothing reasoning. There are many such social pressures and cognitive biases built into our the structure of our minds and we are all susceptible to them. It would be to your advantage (and certainly not to my advantage or any one else’s here) for you to learn as much as you can about them. You might like this: http://youtu.be/b_6-iVz1R0o

            • Spackle Motion

              Since you seem so fond of telling people to read books about Scientology, why don’t you do the same and try to read books about Scientology’s mechanisms aimed to trap people in a cult and the B.I.T.E. model, which Scientology fits perfectly. These subjects are not usually found on this site but are found in books by Steve Hassan and others that were once very fond of being cult members like you.

            • Poison Ivy

              Ad hominem attacks will not get your point of view any respect here, Moon. Maybe you’re not a troll…but if you have something to add to the conversation, there is a way to disagree politely.

            • Moonshot

              Honestly Ivy, are you serious? I am attacked as a “gullible fool” or “wack-job” for simply having been involved with SCN at one point, and i am supposed to be “polite?”

              Yes, i was rude responding to a rude comment. In retrospect, i should have just passed on the whole thing. Waxing enthousiastic about the wonderful qualities of folks of african ancestory will not be reacted to well or fairly at a Klan rally.

              But really, you (general you, not specifially you) call me a “wack-job gullible fool” and i respond with “your an ignorant asshole.” is that really not appropriate?

              Come now, be fair.

            • grundoon

              You assumed personal offense at a rhetorical generalization that was not really directed at you – something like “Everyone who votes Republican is a gullible fool” or “Only wack-jobs could vote for Democrats” – and fired back with a specific personal attack: “You, Poison Ivy, are a little Hitler, Davey Miscaviage, NAZI” and followed up with “Poison Ivy, your an ignorant asshole.” You’ve abandoned the subject of Scientology and instead you’re stinking up the place by trying to get a flame war started. People who do this get pegged as trolls.

            • Moonshot

              Yes, your right. If you read any of my later follow ups, i repent. I just had an emotional reaction.

            • Casabeca

              From time to time we all fail to communicate our real values in the best possible way, especially when we feel strong emotions. I so admire your willingness to stay and keep learning. That’s what I am here for. Peace to you :).

            • grundoon

              Got it. Ok. Your views on Scientology are interesting btw.

            • Robert Eckert

              This board is filled with people who know the tek better than you do. All of your venom-spewing about ignorant morons, ill-informed enforcer, opinionated gum-flappers,etc. just exhibits again that the “spiritual” side of the tek, also, is a mindfuck that leaves its victims poorly equipped to communicate with other people or function in society.

            • Gordon Freeman

              Marty Rathbun’s blog is over thataway, if you’re looking for someone else to drink the koolaid with you.

            • sugarplumfairy

              good confront..but I’m pretty sure you didn’t shatter her.. She’s made of tougher stuff.. And for somebody who doesn’t worship the self-serving creep who started the whole scam, you sure are sensitive..

            • ziontologist

              Could we take the sexual-tension down a notch? Thank you.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Sometimes I just can’t help myself.. I’m a sucker for an obedient and biddable, obnoxious know-it-all with a mean streak..

            • ziontologist

              “obedient and biddable, obnoxious know-it-all with a mean streak”

              You just described yourself perfectly, btw.

            • sugarplumfairy

              you wish..

            • ziontologist

              Ha!

            • Mark

              “Actual research”? Like spelling?

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hey Mark, leave us bad spelers out of this!

            • Moonshot

              ha ha ha..you’re right, without a handy spellchecker, i’m a terrible speller. I should type these things out in word before i post, but i never do.

            • Casabeca

              The goal of my spirituality is to unconditionally love others while checking my own actions and attitudes against the high standards to which I aspire. I am not aware of any spirituality, except Scientology or fundamentalist sects of Abrahamic faiths, that tolerate name-calling and insults.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              >>>> you are probably a moron.
              really, Moonsh*t, you are simply a punk puke-infused jerk. You’re the lamest waste of pixels on Internet.

            • ThetaBara

              So where do the TRs fit in?
              Admin? Or spiritual?
              Because that’s brainwashing, straight up.

            • joan nieman

              Moonshot…do a spell check every now and then.

            • ThetaBara

              Hip Hip HOORAY!!!

          • Moonshot

            It is very easily done. There are 2 main areas of Scientology “Tech.” The first being the Spiritual Technology and second being the Administrative Technology.

            It is the Spiritual Technology that hooks the lay folks becuase in every aspect it is about helping the person to be more themselves and freeing the human spirit in all beneficial ways to the self and community. Not saying you have to believe in any of it, but thats what its about. If one were to just study the Spiritual Tech, one would never believe that the same guy who authored all those concepts could ever create a spiritual gestapo (which LRH did within the Admin Tech) to enslave people.

            The Admin Tech, also called Management Tech, has alot of good common sense policy statements regarding how to manage and organise personnel in any organization. Unfortunatley, it has alot of crazy shit, like the “Ethics Tech” and Disconnection (enforced as apposed to simply voluntary for self preservation), Fair Game, PTS Tech and other things that are easly abused by those who are not well inttentioned.

            But even the Admin Tech, in the absence of any such organization as the Sea Org, is pretty safe to the general community. The Sea Org operates on a higher level and often proprietary (as opposed to the Admin Volumes which anyone get get access to) level of LRH policy called Flag Orders and secret “LRH Advices”. These “FO’s” change the voluntary nature of almost all LRH writings regarding both areas of Tech, and elevate LRH to infallable status and his every untterance into Law.

            Therefore, indie practitioners who have abandoned any allegience to central authority have absolutely no truck with either Admin Tech policy or the Sea Org and its FO driven gestapo practices. Alot of the folks who are now “indies” were at one time “field auditors.” These people once operated under the church umbrella, but where given alot of latitude and freedom to deliver auditing to people outside of church facilities, but under DM, they gradually where harrassed, bullied, and forced out of practice.

            So, many left the church and do it on their own. Which is better, since they dont have to write stupid session KR’s (that go in the pc’s permanent Ethics file) or in any way cooperate with the spiritual gestapo, charge confiscatory rates, or undergo constant retraining at FLAG or anywhre else.

            • grundoon

              I think you are mistaken about both Tech and Admin.

              For marketing purposes, Hubbard tries to paint the Tech as a practice for spiritual freedom, because that is an acceptable gradient for drawing seekers in to his organization. But the actual effects of the Tech – as Hubbard intended – are to bring people under control, reduce their deviation from the norms of Scientology, confine their seeking within boundaries set by Hubbard, and fuel their need for more Scientology. Sure, some people have wins – but in the long run, if they stay with Scientology, they lose. Like so many addicted gamblers have to experience for themselves: in time, the house always wins.

              It’s in the Admin where the greatest evidence can be found for L. Ron Hubbard’s sanity and, perhaps, genius. The Admin writings – unlike the Tech – are mostly clear, readable, understandable, persuasive, and as close as Hubbard gets to being rational. The Admin is where you’ll find any evidence of actual research, such as it is (Hubbard sometimes refers to the works of others, such as PR and sales texts, Reader’s Digest, or his doctor’s explanation of antibiotics). The Admin demonstrably worked – while Hubbard was on top making constant corrections – to build and sustain a worldwide cash cow enterprise under central command. Deprived of Hubbard’s micromanagement, the Scientological enterprise was destined to decline and fall apart because the Admin is flawed and unworkable for anyone but Hubbard. (Whether the “spiritual” Tech works or not has always been immaterial to the success or failure of the Scientology enterprise; in this achievement, Hubbard’s peculiar genius may be seen.)

            • Moonshot

              I can’t say that i agree with your conclusions, but you have obvioulsy read much of the materials and i respect your opinion.

              The spiritual tech is chocked full of exclusive nomenclature. Unless you studied much of this with a Tech Dictionary close at hand, and perhaps seen some of it applied, it would be easy to see why you think as you do. My experience with the Auditing stuff is that before getting through all of the nomenclature, its seems strange and none-sensical. When you actually learn what all the made-up words mean, its actually very simple stuff and in most cases, pretty common sense. It’s almost as if he made up all those Tech words to make it seem more than it is. More impressive.

              Yes, the Admin Tech has alot of its own nomenclature, but the verbage tends to be much less exotic and is more likely to make sense in context.

              But what you say is thought provoking. The first 12 years or so of LRH’s delivery and release of Spiritual Tech was void of parallel Policy Tech directives. But perhaps in this initial period he attempted his desire goal (as you assert) of dominance and control, but was trying to accomplish it through dint of personality alone. Or he had expected that the manifest brilliance (in his own mind) of his is teachings would result in a large and compliant flock.

              But then, when these things failed and as he came under increasing attack, he created the Admin Tech and then the Sea Org in order to accomplish this goal of control he had all along.

              I dont know if thats true, but i cant in all honesty rule it out either. I know the Sea Org and all that shit sucks, so i guess that is a pretty likely scenerio.

            • grundoon

              In 1951 the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation of Elizabeth NJ shut down to dodge a New Jersey Board of Medical Examiners investigation for teaching medicine without a license. This contributed to the 1952 bankruptcy of the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation of Wichita, in which Hubbard signed away all of his rights to the Dianetics copyrights and trademarks, including his books DMSMH and Science of Survival, and other tapes and writings. The Wichita Foundation emerged from bankruptcy and continued the Dianetics enterprise without Hubbard, incurring his lifelong enmity. Also around this time, quite a few others whom Hubbard had trained in Dianetics, split off and started enterprises of their own, using his processes and adding their own, and depriving him of credit and profits.

              Hubbard moved to Phoenix and launched Scientology, since he could no longer use the name “Dianetics” or profit from sales of the Dianetics books. From this time onward he was determined never to let Scientology become the property of others. (The Dianetics rights were given back to him in 1954.) Seeing the danger of being fined or put out of business for unlicensed practice of medicine, Hubbard soon decided to play down the psychotherapy angle and instead set up Scientology as a church with a spiritual-sounding Creed, clerical garb and so forth.

              In the early years most of Hubbard’s income came from training auditors and selling training materials, which his customers would use in setting up their own independent auditing businesses. It was more of a free market: the independent auditors made their own decisions about what processes to run and when, and could change the processes or add their own. The “spiritual freedom” angle was a key selling point in getting PCs to buy Hubbard brand processing from independent auditors, who would then demand more training and new and improved processes from Hubbard.

              Later as Scientology got bigger, Hubbard was able to tighten his control and rein in the independent auditors. PCs were programmed along a tightly structured Bridge. Hubbard introduced the franchise system, planting an HCO in each office to enforce his policies, report on dissidents, and make sure his percentages flowed upward. He dictated a tsunami of Admin and Ethics policies, wanting his orgs to run like clockwork on his prescribed system even in his absence.

              At this stage, when his income now came from direct customers of his own orgs more than from training independent practitioners, it became important to exercise tighter control over PCs. They must be kept on course, kept in the chair, kept marching on the Bridge, kept from nattering and complaining. Hubbard needed them to be good cash cows who would not distract him with upsets. Control of the PC had been a personal interest and hobby of Hubbard’s, but now it became a necessity, and I expect Hubbard began building it into the foundations of the Tech around this time – the late 1950s.

              http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23883-The-Don-Purcell-seizing-Dianetics-lie

            • monkeyknickers

              UM . . . . smarty party in your head, beautiful. Save a cerebral cocktail for me ? 🙂

          • Poison Ivy

            We are the same here, WildaBeast. I wish them well trying to cherry pick and if auditing makes them better, happier humans, then again, I am genuinely happy for them. We all need something, be it jogging, therapy, meditating, yoga-ing, 12-stepping, auditing, golfing, group hugging, or a thousand other whatever – ings, to help us get through this life in one piece. But I always question how they can pull this off with Source being the mad sociopathic conman that he was. In other words, it seems to me they will always have to swallow a certain amount of bitter cognitive dissonance juice in order to keep working with “the tech.”

            If they can, and can still be good, loving people at the same time, more power to them. It’s none of my business how they get through the day, unless it hurts other people.

        • Victoria Pandora

          yeah. but we were told he took EVERYTHING that was ever worthwhile and condensed it down to the fine broth called scientology and dianetics.
          i am sure the indies still believe that storyline.
          and the fact that he went crazy and died, that is just their jesus on the cross.

        • EnthralledObserver

          Yes, I did not say it I guess, but psychiatry was only one source Hubtard stole from, agree.
          I don’t care what Indies do, so long as they obey the appropriate laws and don’t victimise anyone. Of course, telling lies about Hubtard and the tech is coming close to stepping over that line.

      • Snake Plissken

        When you subscribe to a religion thats primary prerequisite is for you to not be as smart as you think you are, anything is possible.

    • Ms. B. Haven

      I’m glad I was able to unload all of my scientology library for pennies on the dollar via eBay. Thankfully there is someone like Jon Atack who has the intelligence, integrity and doggedness to go through these materials again and summarize his findings for the rest of us. I certainly wouldn’t have the stomach for it. The R&D volumes were fascinating from an historical perspective. I thought that they were shooting themselves in the foot though by publishing everything they did. Much of it is damning as Jon points out.

      This reminds me I need to purchase (I)A Piece of Blue Sky(/i) and re-read it. THAT will be worthwhile.

      • Missionary Kid

        Do you get notifications of replies to your comments? If you do, check them. It’s in regards to getting together with some Bunkerites next weekend in PDX. If not, let me know here.

        I’m going to be there next weekend, and I’d love to meet other bunkerites.

        • Ms. B. Haven

          I don’t get notifications of replies to my comments. I can barely keep up with my Bunker Addiction by reading others comments, and still hold down a job.

          I would love to meet in PDX but will not be able to make it this weekend. A NorthWest SP Society meeting would be wonderful though. I live some distance from Portland but the PNW is my closest Ideal Suppressive Region. If there is another get together in the future I’m all for it. It looks like the Southern SPs are having too much fun and the rest of us are missing out.

          • Missionary Kid

            I’ve set a week from tomorrow as a preliminary date. Here’s a drop-box email address (with the symbols spelled out so a web crawler won’t pick it up) skepticalmissionarrykid at gmail dot com Note the misspelling. It’s easier to cut and paste the email address.

          • Missionary Kid

            P.S. Be sure to ID yourself as Ms. B. Haven in the subject line.

      • Pete Cockerell

        This reminds me I need to purchase A Piece of Blue Sky and re-read it. THAT will be worthwhile.

        It is! I just finished the 2nd edition eBook having read the hardback many years ago, and it was even more thoroughly damning of Hubbard and his whole sorry enterprise than I remembered. Infused with Jon’s trademark insightfulness and wit too. Now I just need to track down the text of the only paragraph in the book that was flagged as redacted…

        • Poison Ivy

          I just got it on my iPad…finishing a thriller right now but Jon’s up on deck next! I read the hardback years ago but am so much more into it this time around!

          • GlibWog

            PI Oh I agree I read the book years ago.. Now that I know so much more and the characters I can’t wait.

          • Casabeca

            Same here PI, next up Blue Sky.
            I have a question about IPad and the Bunker for you. I can reply to a comment and edit, usually. I cannot originate a comment and I used to be able to upvote, but now it treats both actions as a refresh of the blog, blanks the page then reloads. Does this also happen to you?
            If people only knew how many more up votes they would get!
            Just wondered if this was happening to anyone else.
            However you do it, your commenting is a gift.

        • jeff

          I ordered the 1st edition hardback as I wanted to read what was known at its time of publishing. I have clear memories of reading the Time magazine cover article in the early 90’s.

      • Gordon Freeman

        Barefaced Messiah is a good read too.

      • jeff

        My copy of APOBS is in the mail…finished Reitman’s Inside Scientology as well as Counterfeit Dreams and am now on Wright’s Going Clear. I think after I finish that I will reread Orwell’s 1984 (which gave me nightmares when I read it the first time). I am increasingly stunned the more I read about this cult. Unbelievable that it hasn’t been shut down yet…and scary with DMs paranoia thrown in – bullet proof windows and all.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        You must. It’s updated since first written. So excellent. Jon is one of the bright bulbs. Very. Much worth reading again.

    • ziontologist

      “Vitalism” taught that cells and organisms are controlled by a “life force.”
      It was replaced, thanks to people like Sigmund Freud, with “Positivism” – the idea that the only forces at work within an organism are the common physical-chemical ones.
      Hubbard called this type of thinking “man from mud.”
      He criticized science for not recognizing the spirit. Yet, he ripped off scientific thought, appropriating it and repackaging it with his very special magick … how the hell did he reconcile those two worlds?
      Jon Atack taught me a lot today. Yes, Hubbard stole from the psychiatry of his time.
      But did he really believe he was a spirit?

      • Poison Ivy

        That’s a big part of the reason Jung split from Freud by the way. Jung was a scientist as well, but he came to believe that the spirit was an immutable part of being human and had to be addressed in any kind of psychological treatment.

        • ziontologist

          Thanks, PI. You are a voice of reason.

      • Gordon Freeman

        Vistarilism? ahaha I slay me.

        • ziontologist

          Call 911 … you’re killing me!

      • grundoon

        L. Ron Hubbard believed that there was money to be made from those who consider themselves spiritual beings.

    • KNMF

      It’s fantastic that Mr. Atack is delving into the origins of Hubbard’s quackery.
      What continues to be apparent is that Hubbard was trying to assemble practices he could use to control people.

      You know this by the inconsistency and lack of caution Hubbard displays in his writings and lectures. He isn’t scientific, and he lacks professionalism. He isn’t service oriented. He’s looking for tools he can use on other people, so he could become rich and powerful.

  • Mark

    So Geir says DM is a marketing genius? (It’s called “bone-dry Scandinavian humorous irony”, by the way).

    I think it’s about time Shortarse changed his tactics. Away with cheesy gold-sprayed Nuremburg-rally type displays! No more bombastic in-love-with-the-sound-of-his-own-voice speeches! Enough already with the endless outdated-80’s-game-show style videos! Let SUBTLETY be the new slogan!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Yes, they should be so darn subtle that they cease to exist.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Amen.

      • Mark

        For an {organisation} that makes so much noise for such rapidly diminishing returns, the Co$ is already circling dangerously close to its own rear-entrance.

    • BananaSplits8

      The only subtle thing that man could possibly be capable of will be the 2 am car ride to a waiting plane.

      • Mark

        And even then it would be a long convoy of Hummers & stretch-limos with lots of OSA outriders on Hawgs. And a couple of overflying helicopters. And a 221-gun farewell salute.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Yeah, he probably IS that stupid.

        • Mark

          (P.S. Oh, and I forgot the hour-long special presentation of the dustbin-lid sized ‘Supreme Pontiff Of The Universe’ medal, accompanied by a 200-strong choir, water-ballet on a revolving stage, and grand firework display by the Twin Peaks Secret Underground Bomb Factory.)

          • BananaSplits8

            And a goodbye kiss from Tom Cruise.

            • Mark

              With tongues.

            • sugarplumfairy

              And cherry lipgloss..

            • Mark

              Not nearly butch enough. HORSERADISH lipgloss!

            • 1subgenius

              Close, but no cigar:

            • Mark

              MWAH! Sweetie-darling…

            • RMycroft
            • ze moo

              No wonder Spielberg doesn’t like him anymore. Yeeech……tom tongue.

            • Mark

              Spielberg’s hated Tommy-Girl ever since he clogged up the sets on War of the Worlds with those damned yellow touch-assist tents. And because TC was a fathead (look how often his oversized bonce gets in the way of something exciting in the film).

            • Robert Eckert
            • Mark

              Crikey! Talk about dishing the dirt! I hope Mr. Moviemaker actually told Mr. Moviestar “You’ll never work in this town again”. But then Mr. Moviemaker is a civilised man, and they were in upstate New York at the time, I believe.

            • Spackle Motion

              Thanks for that link! I love reading brain junk food like this. It would be just so delicious if at least some of it were true.

            • Spackle Motion

              There’s an interesting story (rumor, possibly) behind why Spielberg avoids Cruise like the plague. It has to do with Cruise’s notorious public stance against Brooke Shields and then he allegedly also went off on Kate Capshaw (Spielberg’s wife) for seeking psychiatry (it may have been for one of her relatives or children, I can’t remember). Kate was extremely pissed at Cruise and this carried over into a Hollywood party where Cruise allegedly went a bit ballistic when he discovered Capshaw’s disdain. I recall the story having some silliness about Tom Hanks having to intervene and Cruise leaving the party upset.

              I cannot find that link to the full narrative, but it was a fun read (if actually true, it makes some sense as to why Spielberg is very hesitant around Cruise.

            • RMycroft

              “Spielberg felt the actor’s antics had hurt his own movie, 2005’s War of the Worlds. Far worse, though, had been an episode when Spielberg told Cruise the name of a doctor who had prescribed medication to a relative and the doctor’s office was subsequently picketed by Scientologists.”

              Tom Cruise Had Spielberg’s Family Doctor Picketed By Scientologists November 29, 2007, Katherine Thomson, Huffington Post
              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/29/tom-cruise-had-spielbergs_n_74731.html?

              Showdown at Fort Sumner: Politics & Power December 1, 2007, Bryan Burrough, Vanity Fair
              http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/12/paramount200712?printable=true%C2%A4tPage=all

            • Spackle Motion

              I just finished reading that complete thread and this is very much in line with what I described above.

              Scientology pissed off the WRONG guy when they went after Spielberg. I would bet money that both Spielberg and Capshaw had a few smiles when they heard about Anonymous’ protests in 2008 and 2009.

              Although I would love love love to hear Skip Press’ take on this. He once had an article that Capshaw dabbled in Scientology once herself.

            • 1subgenius

              yer awesome.

        • WildaBeast

          And a marching band, of course, leading the procession, with a banner that says “FAREWELL C.O.B.!!! on it.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Dear Anti-scientology God (Tony), please bring me something tasty to chew on (new breaking stories) for in the morning when I wake up.
    Cheers!
    Night all… 🙂

    • tetloj

      Nighty night

  • BosonStark

    I’d ask Geir, what’s a bigger lie? Is it that the Orgs are growing when they aren’t? Or, is it that Sciloontology is going to clear the whole planet and then it’s on to Target 2? Who thought that up, and brainwashed people into believing such cockamamie? As least I can agree with Miscavige, that Hubbard’s endless sentences full of nothing need some breaking up, maybe with something other than semicolons. But is that an achievement comparable to the Introspection Rundown?

    Hubbard’s lies and dishonesty dwarf Miscavige’s. As one nutter replied to me on Marty’s blog once, “Hubbard was the founder.” His point then was that it was not a fault of Hubbard that he didn’t take more OT care in appointing a successor — that Sciloontology was so special no one could follow the great and powerful…

  • Jimmy Threetimes

    A lesser marketing genius would have missed a few of the semicolons.

  • Remy

    A few years ago, I decided that Hubbard was trying to drive people insane. I have never come across anything to counter this. Today’s article seems to support my hypothesis (not a unique one, it is the official view of the Russian Federation).

    Scientology: Driving People Insane Since 1952

  • Cat Daddy

    Hypnotism is applied psychology.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP376qIWyyg

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    By calling Miscavige a “marketing genius,” I think Gene means that Miscavige is an evil “genius” con-man. For 30 years Miscavige has run a “long con” that has kept his marks on the hook by making them believe that true salvation is just around the corner with the next GAT release, or the next new Idle Org, or the next expulsion of the latest-discovered SP. Miscavige’s long-con, however, is killing the church. When Miscavige was selling the same books to the same people while emptying their wallets, and building empty churches, the church was dying because it wasn’t growing. The only way to avoid the death of a religion, or a business, is expansion. Stasis, standing still, is impossible; the universe either grows or it degenerates. Conning parishioners by selling them the same repackaged product over and over and by building empty dead churches is not expansion-it is degeneration leading eventually to the death of the church.

    • Sidney18511

      I know what your saying SOYS, calling DM or LRH a genius in ANY WAY just sounds wicked crazy and rubs me the wrong way, but…….if Geir meant to refer to DM as an “evil genius” he should of called DM an “evil genius”

    • Bob

      SOYS, yes you have stated it perfectly. Geir is very articulate and observant. The long con is a good description. Geir states the obvious. Mousekavige is a successful genius flim-flam rodent. The mouse king could have gone in the direction of true expansion but it would have taken someone who actually saw what in Scientology could give people better results and then used that to get more people in, which would have altered it but made people more free.
      Instead he chose the route of making church members become more hypnotized and under his control and less free. And so he builds a church of cards. You have to be hypnotized to buy into his constant exploitation. And the Sheeple will all redo their objectives and rave about the wonderful results. And what perfect irony. The Objectives put you under the control of others so you can be a good little Sciebot. And you can believe you are getting wins from anything if you are operating under cognitive dissonance.

      • RMycroft

        It’s like how Reed Slatkin was great at shuffling money around and giving the impression that he was an investment genius–until the wheels fell off the wagon.

        At some point those expensive Ideal Orgs aren’t going to be able to pay the utility bills.

        • Bob

          The ideal morgues will be kept afloat by a combination of subsidies and the local FSM pushing to keep raw meat in the locker. But eventually they will have to pay the piper.

  • George Layton
  • Bradley Greenwood

    Karen, you TRULY missed your calling in life (along with AGP). These episodes are wonderful! You achieve maximum effectiveness with your time and guests (and good editing…). You are almost certainly my favorite SP 🙂

    • sugarplumfairy

      She’s my second fave.. Tony will forever be numero uno..

      • Bradley Greenwood

        Tony is too much for any league. He is not an SP… he is
        “supressiveness” incarnate. Even he will not allow himself to be included in any bracket competition; it’d be a no-brainer.

        • Bradley Greenwood

          My dream is to visit NYC (The Village?), and throw a few back with T.O. at his favorite watering hole. (I’m buying)

          • sugarplumfairy

            My dream is to have Stephen Colbert’s baby.. I figure the kid can entertain me in my old age.. But buying Tony a drink would be good too..

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Oooo, that’s my dream too!

            • Bradley Greenwood

              I went with Tony because Colbert refuses to even TRY to have a child with me 🙁

  • Techie

    If you bought the Blu-Ray version of “The Master” you also got a copy of the 1946 John Huston documentary on psychological experimentation after WW2. called “Let there be Light”.

    It shows actual footage of the narcosynthesis technique and also “talk therapy” techniques of the day. I often wondered if this form of research is what Hubbard is talking about when he refers to test groups and so on in Dianetics and Science of Survival. Apparently he was hanging around military hospitals during this time period (trying to get a disability payment) and he certainly did not do any actual documented research of his own. Russell Miller’s “Bare Faced Messiah” covers this.

    There is even a scene of a patient with hysterical paralysis that recovers the use of his legs, almost the exact same plot as the film “Evolution of a Science”. Except of course this patient did not read a book and self-audit as in the film, he actually got a form of therapy! And the therapists were not evil sociopaths out to do him in!

    Even the dicatphones (disc recorders) on the desks of the therapists look like the ones Hubbard used to dictate early lectures and books. There is something to the idea that Hubbard borrowed from the early attempts to resolve PTSD (or “Shell Shock”).

    http://youtu.be/uiD6bnqpJDE

    • Jon Hendry

      I really hope nobody watches that documentary, and decides “Hey, Scientology must have something to it, if it’s similar to what the military was using”.

  • justpassingby

    Is it possible that both things are true – that Miscavige is a true believer AND a cynical manipulator who is only in it for the power and money? Wouldn’t that also describe LRH? It looks like LRH was both a cynical snake-oil salesman AND a guy who believed a good deal of his own b.s. – so couldn’t the same be true of Miscavige?

    Maybe the percentages have changed over the years – from 50-50 snake oil salesman/ true believer to, say, 70/30, but I wonder if this guy could really be inside that bubble for his entire adult life and not believe to some degree.

    • WhereIsSHE

      I don’t think so, jpb.
      He doesn’t even do the auditing, for one. (Or subject himself to sec checking, for that matter.)
      He is “out-2D”, meaning he cheats on his wife with his personal communicator–and right before the eyes of the stupid sheep who keep getting swindled by him.
      He physically assaults people on a routine basis.
      And he lives the life of a king, his every material wim catered to and indulged.
      OH. And he violates the privacy and priest-penitent privilege by viewing what are supposed to be confidential auditing sessions– for cheap thrills, for kicks, for the purpose of mocking the confessor.
      I could go on.

      • Missionary Kid

        Did LRH subject himself to auditing or sec checking?

        • Robert Eckert

          I don’t know about sec-checking, but several people audited him (and of course ended up declared or stuck in the Hole under the new regime).

          • justpassingby

            I posed the question to Mike Rinder on his blog, here is his interesting response:

            justpassingby says:

            September 7, 2013 at 10:22 am

            Mike Rinder:
            A question has come up on Tony Ortega’s blog, you could probably shed some light on the subject: Does David Miscavige believe in Scientology, the tech, LRH or is he just a cynical snake oil salesman? My guess is both – that he has no respect for the consumers, but, in a twisted way, still believes in the product. Am I close?

            Mike Rinder says:

            September 7, 2013 at 10:39 am

            A very simplistic answer to a complicated question. But for a one sentence answer, I would agree with you.

            I think his “belief” is limited to how it benefits him. It is a cynical “belief”….

      • Spackle Motion

        I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Scientology is a cult and most cult leaders engage in double speak and double think. LRH mastered the contradictory duality in his thousands upon thousands of written documents, and Miscavige is conveniently twisting those policies to his advantage and only using policies when it is convenient for him.

        Miscavige has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, where the rules do not apply to him because he is a Big Being while the rest of the world are only there to serve his needs. He does have the ability to decipher actions that are “right” and “wrong” because he goes to great lengths to cover his tracks to fool law enforcement. But he most likely sees himself as the supreme leader (along the lines of a North Korean dictator) that is tasked with an unbelievable “burden” all by himself, which is probably how he justifies not sipping the cult-aid like the rest of his flock.

      • 1subgenius

        We don’t know for a fact that DM doesn’t audit. Correct me if I’m wrong.
        I don’t think he does, but even Hubbard, I believe, continued to be audited to his well-deserved demise. And I don’t think Hubbard, believed in his own “tech” at that point. The monster he created devoured him, and even brainwashed him in continuing to do it.
        All the things you list DM doing are also done on a daily basis by actively auditing Scientologists.

        • pluvo

          DM uses the advanced “copper rods” technique.

          • 1subgenius

            Yeah, I was gonna mention that (which also isn’t verified), because if he’s stupid enough to do that, well then auditing is nothing.
            Ooooh, I wonder if he’ll be using his copper thingies while he’s in America’s Lightning Capital.

    • 1subgenius

      I think that’s definitely possible as I said a few moments earlier here.
      This automated hypnosis known as auditing, has a life of its own.
      Reminds me of a Richard Pryor line:
      “Cocaine made a new man of me. And he wanted some too.”

      • ThetaBara

        I think he started as a true believer (wasn’t he 12 when his dad got him in?) and later figured it out but by then was addicted to power, scotch and bespoke suits.

        • 1subgenius

          Good morning, how’s the coffee?

          If his dad got him in at age 12, supposedly, then his dad was already a scilon, so DM was exposed to it before that.

          And, By the age of twelve, he was conducting Scientology auditing sessions.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige

          Not just getting audited but conducting brainwashing sessions.

          Looks like the family was in by the time he was 11.

          Not sure what you’re saying, but my point is that even though he knows it’s a scam, he may still be addicted to getting audited, because of the nature of the “tech”.
          Just a possibility. The other is that he’s so paranoid he wouldn’t let anyone into his brain. Damn he’s tiny isn’t he? I don’t discount that weird things happened growing up with a twin sister.
          Narcissistic Personality Disorder is associated with weird childhood stuff.

          Hubb’s “tech” implants his mental illnesses in those who audit. And like ideas, memes, information, it has a life of its own. And must grow or die. Self-preservation.

          Whatev…..lately my favorite home coffee is made Melitta cone style. Water temp is important. I’ve got it down so the amount of water I use X time in the microwave = perfect temp.

          • ThetaBara

            I’m in Cali. I’m back from the bar and nursing a nightcap. If I make it one more hour SUnday Funnies will be posted and there won’t be 600 comments yet!

            I still think he did believe it at first but then got power mad. I heard he quit getting audited after OT3 which – if true – is pretty telling.

            • 1subgenius

              Yes, we’ve heard that he quit, but no verification. Like I’ve said elsewhere, lrh, imho, also knew it was a scam, but continued auditing to his death. His monster has a life of its own.

              Whatcha drinking? All summer I’ve been loving huge tumblers of vodka, grapefruit juice from trader joe’s, and tonic. Looking for something to transition to for fall.

              Was bloody marys (with McClure’s bloody mix http://www.mcclurespickles.com/products/bloody-mary-mix )last year, but that’s so last year. I’m wondering how a bloody would be with soda water.

            • ThetaBara

              Mmm, Greyhounds. Was having those at the bar! We’re low on stock (big party last weekend) so all I’ve got is Sierra Nevada. Been enjoying whiskey and ginger ale in the hot weather, and always love hot cinnamon apple tea with whiskey in it for winter. LOVE bloodies. Ionce had my date get me one at a bar and the bartender teased him for drinking it after dark. Silly!

            • 1subgenius

              Is Greyhounds a beer?

              I can’t stop listening to Tally Hall or Eliza Doolittle. And holy shit, I just found out Mayer Hawthorne released a new album in July. Why does nobody tell me these things?

              I got it, and listened all the way through without stopping. Lots of overt drug references.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGQZItOMz6k

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzY0-I4Gq5w

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOdwSquHorw

            • ThetaBara

              A Greyhound is gin and grapefruit juice. Preferably fresh squeezed. Thanks for the links! I’ve gotta turn in but will listen in the morning. Or what passes for the morning since I’m going to bed at 3am.

            • 1subgenius

              (Edit, I see its grapefruit juice and vodka/gin, What synchrony…I hate the term synchronicity…..but throw some tonic in there, the carbonation gets it in your blood stream faster)
              Shit, you only have 20 minutes before Sunday Funnies. You ain’t goin’ nowhere.

  • Remy

    RE: Geir Isene video.

    Miscavige’s problem of dealing with a static philosophy is hardly unique. It’s the same thing with all religions. The solution to reinvigorating the philosophy is not creative marketing. Miscavige is no genius. The solution is allowing parishioners to thrive in life, rather than destroy them.

    The bulk of any other religion is not the core text, but the accumulated commentaries, which keep things fresh and reconcile issues of modernity. But with Scientology, nobody is left intact and unharmed. Nobody is in a position to write a positive commentary. The ministers are merely uneducated slaves. The children are also deprived of proper education.

    Of course, with Scientology, that is kind of it’s intention – to brainwash parishioners to give more money. The problem is not that it is “static” – rather, that it is malignant, and inherently stunts the adaptive ability of it’s adherents.

    • 1subgenius

      Would only edit that slightly to “The problem in not just that it is “static”, but that it is also malignant.”

  • Spackle Motion

    Geir is crediting the wrong person for “marketing genius”. I’m surprised that he doesn’t know about Jeff Hawkins and the various marketing teams, including the non-slave wog ones. Why is he only crediting Miscavige? Yes, Miscavige is leading these campaigns but he shouldn’t get the credit.

    And how would a “Marketing Genius” not know that his own product is the equivalent of selling a polished turd? That doesn’t seem like someone with too much insight.

    There is something about Geir that I both like and don’t like. His words tell me that he’s both figured it out and simultaneously not figured it out.

    • Mark

      I think he was being ironic.

      • Spackle Motion

        That didn’t come across in his demeanor and/or his statements. I took it that he really thinks Miscavige is a true marketing genius. Gier doesn’t seem to know much about marketing.

        • Mark

          I think he was also being subtle. Norwegians and other Scandinavians are noted for their dry sense of humour!

          Perhaps he should have made a more obvious comparison – say Goebbels?

          • Spackle Motion

            You could be correct. Geir’s statement of, “I don’t anyone that has done that” (regarding repackaging of a static product) is just strange. There are countless examples of companies that have been around for about 100 years including commodity staples as Coca-Cola, various insurance companies such as MetLife, and even large religions that have been in crisis such as the Catholic Church.

            I have worked closely with some marketing “genius” types for companies that have been around for nearly 200 years and know how this works. I really get the sense that he’s making his conclusions without really knowing the machinations.

            • Mark

              He does seem a touch naive about the marketing world. Probably needs to read both When Prophecy Fails and The Hidden Persuaders.

              What really gets my goat about modern marketing are those dreadful questionnaires where you’re supposed to rate products as ‘personality-types’: more like admen fishing for compliments than genuine research…

            • Spackle Motion

              Yes, I agree that those questions are really stupid but they serve a purpose in setting a tone.

              One thing that also bothers me about Geir’s statement is how can someone be a marketing “genius” when your product is not selling? Maybe he was being sarcastic….us ‘Muricans prefer obvious body language to match sarcastic statements, I suppose.

            • Missionary Kid

              I would call him a marketing genius in that his product sells at all.

              When you can sell the Same Old Shit to the same people, it is a near miracle. (I don’t believe in miracles).

            • Spackle Motion

              You are making an assumption that the “same people” buying the same product are normal, reasoning human beings. Scientologists that keep buying regurgitated products are not sane, reasonable, and definitely not able to make up their own minds.

            • 1subgenius

              Very good point. Any change DM makes has to also not make the brainwashed snap out of it.

            • Missionary Kid

              My point is that he’s still able to make money off them by reselling an inherently defective product. Their state of mind doesn’t matter, or if they are sane or insane. The fact that he’s been able to make money off them for all these years at all is genius. Evil genius, but still genius.

            • Spackle Motion

              Great point. I like this discussion we’ve been having today. It helps me better understand the mechanics of building the cult identity.

            • Missionary Kid

              Good. I can’t remember. Were you ever in?

            • Spackle Motion

              No, I was never in although grew up in clam-land (LA) and was subject to Hawkins’ intense marketing campaigns on an almost daily basis for several years.

            • Missionary Kid

              I was exposed to Dianetics in the late 50s through my oldest sister, who briefly got involved. She blew and became an ultra-fundamentalist Christian, where she still is. At least there’s no disconnection.

              I’ve had brushes w/ Co$, but knew enough to give a fake name & address. About 15 years ago, I read Bare-Faced Messiah and discovered that my neighbor had gone to a meeting in Phoenix when LRH was there. He said that LRH was the most evil person he’d ever seen.

            • grundoon

              I wonder if your neighbor witnessed L. Ron Hubbard’s practical demonstration of the R2-45 auditing process at the “Unification Congress” held in Phoenix in December 1954, as reported by Alphia Hart in the pages of The Aberree, Volume 1 Issue 9:

              DIANETICS ABANDONS ILLS AND ENGRAMS AS GOAL OF PROCESSING

              Dianetics, as a psychotherapy, is no more. Instead, it was announced non-surprisingly at the “Unification Congress” held in Phoenix December 28-31, that Dianetics, like Scientology, henceforth will concern itself only with the study and understanding of man. …

              A one-shot “clear” can be obtained only by applying the business end of a .45 to the forehead and pulling the trigger, Ron demonstrated — firing a blank cartridge into the floor behind him. This, he called “a workable process reserved for psychiatrists.”

              http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/27/scientologys-notorious-r2-45-policy/

            • Missionary Kid

              My neighbor didn’t mention it. He said that LRH got up in front of the group and said that if they followed him, he’d make them rich.

              The thing that creeped my neighbor out was that afterwards, he waited around after the talk, and people would bring LRH a cup of coffee. He’d thank them, as if it was just what he wanted, and in a short while, dispose of it. Another person would come up to him and do the same thing, and the whole process would be repeated, over and over. The insincerity of it really turned my neighbor off.

            • grundoon

              Good story.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks.

              Joe, my neighbor went because he was an aspiring science fiction writer, not because of Dianetics, so he had a different viewpoint than most of the other people there. That’s probably why he wasn’t taken in.

            • junojones

              He’s able to do it because of religious packaging. Belief is the ultimate thought stopping mechanism. Once people are convinced their eternities are at stake, they tend to be open to some pretty messed-up shit.

            • Missionary Kid

              AMEN!

            • Lark Smith

              Many ex-CO$ members write about the boxes and boxes of books they purchased to be “in good standing” which makes Slappy Mcnutts an efficient extortionist not a marketing genius. Slappy is basic a thug that sells ( pushes) grade Z crap.

            • Missionary Kid

              My definition of marketing is that someone sells something. It is all shit, but he sells it. He manipulates, in an evil way, the clam’s emotions. He is evil.

              The person who gets you to buy corn flakes or other products that come from the same production line because it has a brand name is also manipulating you and taking advantage of your belief that somehow it is better when it isn’t. The difference is that there is actually some value to the corn flakes, whereas there is little or none in $cientology, and usually something intrinsically destructive.

              He has managed to hold on to the few who are left. That speaks both to their gullibility and his evil genius, considering that it’s an essentially defective product.

            • KJP in Portland

              Maybe Drivel McMidget will end his days as an infomercial marketer…

            • KJP in Portland

              #173?

            • KJP in Portland

              ‘The Pope of $cientology’ my arse. How about ‘The Poop of $cientology?’

            • Missionary Kid

              Both are on the list., and I’m up to 184 nicknames for the asshole. (Which isn’t on the list).

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              “person of interest” miscavige

            • Missionary Kid

              O.K.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Sorry, I guess I’m a bit lame today.

            • Missionary Kid

              Nobody ever always bats 1000.

            • Missionary Kid

              First, thank yo for another nickname. Next, I might throw up on the TV if I ever saw him marketing anything, and finally, where I really want to see him is in jail.

            • KJP in Portland

              Oh indeed!

            • Lark Smith

              Evil -yes, yes , yes !… . Genius- not so much.

            • Mark

              Sarcasm, irony – as long as it’s directed at the right target of Shortarse flogging a dead horse.

              That’s what makes me assume that DM really IS a complete fuckwit in a number of vital areas: anyone else with half a brain would have realised decades ago that the Tublard well is dry, no matter how much it’s tarted up in {new} editions. Anyone else who hadn’t stopped their education so early would also realise that semi-colons are an aid to comprehension, not a barrier.

            • Mooser

              Anyone else who hadn’t stopped their education so early would also
              realise that semi-colons are an aid to comprehension, not a barrier.”

              Well, then, if you like them so much, go ahead and use one in a sentence! Only people who have had a semi- colonoscopy really know how to use them.

            • Mark

              Oops! At least there was a colon. I have used semi-colons elsewhere here: my semi-colon regularity is a tribute to the benefits of a semi-colonoscopy. Maybe that’s why Shortarse is so shrivelled; he’s had a semi-colonectomy?

            • Spackle Motion

              Fun factoid – in Greek, semicolons are used as question marks.

            • Mark

              And a raised dot as a semi-colon; no exclamation-marks, though 🙁

            • KJP in Portland

              He’s experiencing a little ‘bottleneck’ to his ‘throughput’, lol!

            • Mooser

              “What really gets my goat about modern marketing are those dreadful questionnaires where you’re supposed to rate products”

              Cause they come and take the product away from you if you don’t complete the questionnaire?

            • Mark

              No – because I prefer to have relationships with human beings rather than tubes of toothpaste. Online surveys: a recent one genuinely asked me if ‘Fosdick’s Fang Foam’ or whatever muck it was were a person, would I find it gregarious/fun/sophisticated &c., ad nauseam. At least I was able to tell them justvwaht I thought of them in the “any other comments” box.

              The only thing they’ve ever sent me was some vile German “extra-hot curry ketchup” that was so bland it barely tasted of anything. Oh well, as long as the Amazon vouchers continue to mount up…

            • Mooser

              Germans don’t know from capsicum, everybody knows that.

            • Candygram

              That’s kind of standard, albeit bizarre, market research. They want to know what to tell people they’ll become if they buy the product… Or what to congratulate people on being… If they buy the product. My least favorite ad campaign for unadulterated laziness was “dodge. Different. ” i swear I could imagine the top line report graph showing statistically significant drivers among standard attributes [“when you think of Dodge, on a scale of 1 to 5…. How much do you agree that dodge is…”] … “Different” … “For people like me…” Then some advertising hack just said, hey… You know what’s different? Driving a red truck instead of a white one. Rad!

              Even the $cilon ad that runs on all anti$ci YouTube vids is slicker… tho laughable for its ambiguity, cliches and doublespeak. Yeah. Science is all about what’s true for you. Only if you think a BS in belly button gazing is science. Maybe they meant “sciency.”

          • KJP in Portland

            Goebbels, yes! Then, does that make T.C. a ‘Bormann’, or (lol) a ‘Rohm’ (ya know…the best buds thing? At least Hitler, pre-1908 in Vienna when he was supposedly a [ahem] homosexual). Ah, fuggit, I’ll save the NSDAP shit for another day…

            NOTE: I’ve been down ill a couple days, but have been watching all comments from my phone. Thought I’d get up a bit and read ‘the big screen’.

            • q-bird

              get better soon KJP – ah, you will. This too shall pass. I see you are all ready on the mend. 🙂

            • KJP in Portland

              Thanks q-b. I’m hoping for the back surgery in October. I can hardly get around. No ‘touch assist’ B.S. can help this one. LOL!

            • q-bird

              oh dang – gravity – it’s a bitch on us bipedal humans, oh yes it is. Of course without it, we’d all be popping off the planet. I know of a number of folks who have had amazing healing results from back surgery – no b.s. I will hope for the very best for you in October.

            • Mooser

              “I know of a number of folks who have had amazing healing results from back surgery”

              It is very, very important to take the physical rehab seriously, and do what the therapist says. Remarkable advances are being made in that field, and taking the post-operative rehab seriously can make the difference between an optimum recovery, and indifferent results.

            • Mark

              Or Baldur von Schirach who led the Hitler Youth (corruption of the young), or Robert Ley of the Arbeiterfront (slave labour)? Or maybe Cruise will claim “I vas only obeyink orders” à la Speer (posthumously revealed as a liar)?

              Get well soon.

            • KJP in Portland

              Thank you, and Robert Ley would be a much better choice, or Fritz Todt…

        • Espiando

          Jeff’s Dianetics ads came at a time when there was still the promise of “undiscovered tech” to be had. By the time it became obvious that there wasn’t, Jeff had already blown. That left the cupboard bare at the same time that no raw meat was coming in.

          Unlike Mark, I think that Geir was serious. DM is, in his own way, a marketing genius. He had to figure out a way to get an income stream from a group of people that wasn’t growing. So he turned to the only thing he had and started marketing things in a different way.

          Let me try to analogize. Let’s take a laundry detergent called Stink-B-Gone. It came out in the early 50s, when consumerism was really kicking into gear. It tried to sell itself on being technologically-advanced and something new in the area of getting your clothes clean. Unfortunately, it didn’t have the backing of one of the big names in consumer products, so while it sold well in some areas (Washington, Phoenix, Los Angeles, and even the UK), it wasn’t omnipresent. It did well enough to stick around, though, and started to become an “alternative and hip choice” for laundry detergent thanks to some savvy word-of-mouth in the late 60s. It became fashionable to use in the 70s, but then, like everything else in the 70s, started to go out of fashion. Business picked up again in the 80s thanks to an eye-catching ad campaign, but then the company’s founder, Seymour Stink, died in 1986.

          Seymour had put out an edict that the secret cleansing formula of Stink-B-Gone that he created in the early 50s not be changed. So, for three decades, the same old Stink-B-Gone was foisted on the public. Eventually, Seymour’s successor was named, a guy named PeePee LePew who’d come up through the company, and PeePee had a problem. The competition was utilizing advances in materials science and organic chemistry to make improvements in their products. But Seymour’s edict pinned him down.

          What to do, PeePee, what to do? If he couldn’t change the basic formula, he could tweak it a bit. There was still a small but loyal customer base who wouldn’t use anything other than Stink-B-Gone, and PeePee knew from the disaster that was New Coke that a wholesale change would kill the business. There was only one path: make changes, but keep them minor, and make certain that the buying public knew that it was still the same old Stink-B-Gone at heart.

          So first we ended up with Stink-B-Gone With Extra Brighteners (for a Golden Age glow to your clothing!). The loyal Stink-B-Gone customers bought it, and even started saying that their clothes were brighter and more colorful, even when they weren’t. So along came Stink-B-Gone All In One, which supposedly used a lost method of Seymour to combine detergent and softener into the most effective, comprehensive detergent yet (“From the Knowledge of the past comes a new Golden Age for even the most delicates!”). PeePee took his next cue from environmentalists, who were decrying bad stuff from detergents finding their way into our water supply, and came out with Stink-B-Gone Basics, simply the old Stink-B-Gone with less added semi-cleansers. And the business was kept alive thanks to these well-timed marketing gimmicks.

          And he was able to sell this crap to the old Stink-B-Gone purchasers and keep them in the fold. To them, each new development was the greatest thing ever in laundry detergent and promised to make wash day into a pleasant, quick experience. And now PeePee is going for the big one: Stink-B-Gone Super, which promises reviving of dull fabrics and a clean on 56 different levels, with a special bit of secret oil to soften even the roughest wool.

          The thing is, there are still no new customers, and some of the old ones are leaving. It’s in big part thanks to information provided by old customers and workers at Stink-B-Gone, who have been telling us for a long time that something’s wrong over there. Then in 2008, an Internet collective called Unanimous blew the lid off: the most super-secret ingredients in Stink-B-Gone are human flesh and the blood of sacrificed infants. No new customers will ever buy Stink-B-Gone ever again, but the loyal buyers will want nothing else. PeePee will do anything to keep them happy and keep the money coming in. When Stink-B-Gone Super ends its run, there will be Stink-B-Gone Formula 910, “adapted” from some of Seymour’s “old notes” (or so will say the marketing).

          PeePee is nothing but marketing. He is a success on the most basic level: his company is profitable, human flesh is cheap, sacrificable infants are still easy to find, and he’s proven that he can put out the same old crap in different packaging. Whether he’s a genius depends on your definition of “genius”, but “savant” can’t be argued.

          • Spackle Motion

            Again, you are making the same mistake that Geir makes. I enjoy your analogy, but you are assuming that PeePee is single-handed doing his own marketing and creatively coming up with his own ideas. And, your analogy also makes assumptions about the customers that do not carry over to Scientology. Scientology’s customers do not have the magic “black box” (as one marketing professor once preached about) where they are able to come to their own conclusions and use average intelligence/reasoning to make decisions in their purchases.

            One has to know how your product is truly perceived by the public and your customers before you can repackage and resell the same product. Using undue influence is usually frowned upon by most reputable marketing “geniuses”, and that is Scientology’s only marketing tool.

            • Espiando

              Agreed on most aspects, except that I forgot to add one thing about Stink-B-Gone: while other detergents were using celebrities and sponsoring television shows in the 50s and early 60s, Stink-B-Gone’s marketing was always centered on two things: its “effective advanced technology” and Seymour. Seymour’s “kind, friendly” face in the marketing was centrally positioned as a selling point for Stink-B-Gone. PeePee doesn’t have anything resembling kind and friendly anywhere in his body, but he’s keeping the company tradition by having once face front and center, and that face is the head of the company. Even though PeePee has celebrity friends who only use Stink-B-Gone and would love to advertise it, tradition won’t be broken.

              We know that The Dark Lord Chuckles The Silly Piggy isn’t alone in coming up with the reprocessed sewage that CoS is putting out, but Scientologists need a figurehead who they believe is in ultimate control. Unfortunately for them, he is, and unfortunately for everyone who reports to him, he gets the credit. Never the blame, though.

          • 1subgenius

            Very apt.

          • KJP in Portland

            Clever, clever, clever! Bravo comment!

          • Sidney18511

            David PeePee LePew Miscavige sorta has a stinky kinda ring to it.

      • 1subgenius

        You may be right. And it (the opinion of “marketing genius”) is wrapped up in Geir’s (perhaps also ironic) opinion that DM actually believes in the “tech”.
        Because otherwise DM would just re-do the whole lot of it in a more fundamental way.

        • Missionary Kid

          I’ve been posting this all over the place, but when you type in, “define genius” in Google, this is the last definition you get:
          adjective informal
          1.
          very clever or ingenious.
          “a genius marketing ploy”

          • ThetaBara

            Yeah, you said that. But that’s like them redefining “literally” so that it no longer literally means what it used to. Just because people say it doesn’t make it right.

            • Missionary Kid

              It is, however, a common usage, but not as common as meaning that someone is outstandingly brilliant and creative. I took it to mean clever, but I realize that most people objected to the use of the word genius because, DM is an asshole, and he doesn’t seem to have great mental resources.

    • 0tessa

      Maybe because he is using Scientology tech and jargon to explain what Miscavige is doing.
      Geir is still a believer, I think. My opinion is that Miscavige has stopped way since to be a believer.
      Miscavige is just busy to survive as COB, to save the sinking ship.

      • Spackle Motion

        Geir seems to have a narrow view of Scientology still. It is widening, but he still hangs on to the woo, which is what is frustrating to witness. He is an articulate and intelligent person that spent a tremendous amount of time studying the limited world view of a 1950’s hack science fiction writer that built a tremendous con based on medical quackery. I hope that he starts to investigate how cults operate and how the “tech” was designed to keep him in a slave mentality.

        I would like to eventually read his book. I hope it comes out in English soon.

        • Espiando

          The only thing that ever drove me nuts about Geir is that just after he came out, everyone on Clambake and all the other board establishing themselves in the pre-wake and post-wake of Chanology referred to him as “OTVIII Geir Isene”. Never as “Geir” or “Mr. Isene”, always “OTVIII Geir Isene”. I honestly thought that he’d changed his first name to “OTVIII”.

          • Spackle Motion

            I didn’t know that, thanks for that information. This tells me that he’s struggling in shedding his cult identity, which is understandable. I hope one day he sees the forest through the trees. He has some ways to go still.

            • ze moo

              As anything wrong with $cientology is due to an SP, Geir must the be the mother of all Norwegian SPs. The Oslo org is bankrupt and can’t even get enough credit to get electricity. Go Trolls……

            • junojones

              Norwegians know a thing or three about trolls.

            • Sidney18511

              I not only had dozens of trolls, I also had a lovely troll house which would come in handy dandy as a perfect hideout for wee Davey when it comes time for him to blow.

        • Sidney18511

          LRH went from writing science fiction to writing fictional science.

      • 1subgenius

        Good thing he’s got some other skills to fall back on.

    • 1subgenius

      I don’t think he had the right terminology. Not marketing in the advertising sense.
      Kind of re-designing a product, without changing it.
      Imagine if you were Ferrari, and suddenly had to comply with 100 mpg regulations. You put in some engine that could do it, and tell the customers, “Oh yeah, its still a Ferrari. Yeah, that’s the ticket.”
      The point I took from it was that anything to survive must change. And if it doesn’t it will die.
      How does one take something like Hubbard’s system, which by definition and rule cannot be changed, and do something to forestall the inevitable entropy.
      DM’s actually done a decent job of prolonging the well deserved, and inevitable death of the world’s most sinister scam.
      The current state of it is both due to, and despite Miscavige.

  • Racnad

    The DVD release for the film “The Master” contains a John Ford documentary that shows psychiatrists treating troubled WWII veterans using techniques uncannily resembling early Dianetics and the processes used by Hoffman’s characters in the film. It is clear LRH was familiar with these techniques and used them as the basis of Dianetics.

    • Mooser

      L Ron Hubbard “is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.”

    • grundoon

      Maybe LRH saw that documentary?

  • Bradley Greenwood

    By the way, Tony, I am glad you are on the radar, sufficiently, to score advertising. Hell, we’ll even take Scientology ads; that would be the BEST!

  • GSioux

    Psychic survival is the underpinning for each of us. Some of us are “onto” our psychic survival driving force. Whether we are “onto” our driving force or not determines the basis for our beliefs – delusional or relatively sound. I say ‘relatively’ since we are all “works in process”. David M’s early history set up his “psychic survival” trajectory, as did Isene’s. David’s is based on a lifetime of Scientology. It is possible to be a ‘genius’ within the realm of his delusional experience – think ‘delusional-to-relatively-sound scale’ rather than tone scale. Isene must be further along placing him toward the ‘relatively sound’ end of the scale.

    • 1subgenius

      Interesting.

    • Sidney18511

      The word genius shouldn’t even be on the same page with the names LRH and little MissCabbage. Never. Ever. Never.

      • GSioux

        Very scary when geniuses are narcissists at best, sociopaths at worst.

  • deselby
    • 1subgenius

      Well, thanks for that.

      • deselby

        Its an actual picture of a tone 40 being.

    • Sidney18511

      I see a slight resemblance to the Hubster.

      • Robert Eckert

        The cyst on the forehead, perhaps?

  • Captain Howdy

    Ronald Colman and Virgina Mayo?

    • marti

      Ginger Rogers and Barry Sullivan in “Lady in the Dark.”

      • Captain Howdy

        Thanx

  • scnethics

    Jon Atack is a treasure.

  • scnethics

    Geir is right on with his description of the witch hunt culture, and how everyone thinking their org is the only one with bad stats creates that culture (a culture which pervades failing scientology businesses as well).

    He is dead wrong about David Miscavige believing in the tech. LRH was going into session with David Mayo until 79 or 80, and he continued taking himself into session, I believe, until the end. Miscavige hasn’t been in session in decades. He does not believe in this shit. Further, the book featured in the video clip, Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought, was deeply edited, with one chapter dropping from eight pages to one! This was not transcription error, this was LRH blather (some of it racist), and Miscavige is purposefully cleaning up the materials so they don’t include racism and other embarrassing material.

    The book, A New Slant on Life, once contained an essay that began something like “It would be easy to create a slave, not that anyone would want to…”

    • Mooser

      “It would be easy to create a slave, not that anyone would want to…”

      Excuse me, but what about the military? And once you take the President’s shilling you can’t decide to cut your losses and quit the cult. So you have to find a way to deal with the hierarchy, and the relative unimportance of your own well-being to those around you.

      • Missionary Kid

        In the military, you are not a slave. You are entitled to your own thoughts, you have periods of off duty, you are paid, and you have a contract. With the draft, it was involuntary,but there was a degree of freedom that slaves don’t have.

        • Mooser

          You are entitled to your own thoughts, if you choose to have them. And if you don’t, so much the better for everybody. I imagine it’s pretty much the same in Scientology. But in the military you can’t turn around and go “F–k this Bulls–t” and walk away, so there is a whole lot more at stake in finding a way to deal with it.

          And there’s no military contract that says you can live, if they choose otherwise.

          • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

            Seems apropos (I may have posted this before. And probably will again):

            http://youtu.be/KzGjEkp772s

          • Missionary Kid

            It is more difficult to say “fuck it,” but in today’s military, there are many more ways to get out than I was in, but one must be careful about when one does it. If you make the decision to quit when you’re under fire, it’s too late.

            There is no military contract that says you will live, but you still have choices well before you go into battle. There are consequences, but you signed the contract, and you weren’t forced to.

          • Jon Hendry

            At least you can get usable skills in the military (depending on your role: tank-driving may not be marketable. Network management probably is.), and you don’t have to pay for your own training.

            Overall, I’m guessing there are a lot more ex-military people who feel good about their military service (especially if they weren’t deployed into a war zone) and what they got out of it, than there are ex-Scientologists who feel the same.

        • ThetaBara

          There is heavy conditioning. They tell you how to wash your ass!

          • Missionary Kid

            Yup, there was heavy conditioning, but they never told me how to wash my ass. 😉
            You also get to leave for periods to see your family or do what you want.

            The recruiter lied, just like they do in Co$, but the commitment wasn’t for a billion years.

  • Poison Ivy

    Ah, Hubbard’s extensive “research.” How he fooled others – particularly doctors – with these claims confounds me. No one ever saw his files of data, their analysis, the criteria and controls of his experimentsm, or least of all, their publication in peer-reviewed journals so they could be tested and debated by other “scientists.”

    This is because IMHO HUBBARD DID NO ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH HIMSELF!

    Even his reporting of his “research” relies on one thing – the eminently useful passive voice – to attach him to the results, as Atak shows here:

    “[tests] have been made on people who could be hypnotized and people who could not but were drugged. They brought forth valuable data for dianetics.” (D:MSMH, p.57). Further, “one day, a multi-valent patient, under drugs, went back to his birth” (ibid, p.126). “The author is well aware that many physicians, in using narco-synthesis, have occasionally accidentally entered ‘unconscious’ periods.” (D:MSMH, p.117, footnote).

    Passive voice. No statements such as “We tested 50 war veterans with stress disorders. 25 with hypnotism only and 25 with hypnotism and drugs. The first group showed x, while the second group showed y.” No footnoting about the experimental conditions and no charts showing variety of results.

    I’m not a scientist at all, but I’ve worked with some prominent ones and I’ve done science writing. I know what the scientific method is, as should any high school graduate. This is one of the things that makes me see red about Hubbard and shake my head at those who still cling to seeing him as a “genius.” Hubbard may have been a guy who “intellectually” posited and patched together some new-ish (but not really new) ideas from a confluence of actual research done by REAL scientific pioneers. But he was no scientist and he did no real science himself. Nibs confirms this and then some in his interviews.

    • Missionary Kid

      I thought I’d had this on my list of things said about $cientology, but it’s been written by others.
      There is no science in $cientology.

    • Mooser

      “How he fooled others – particularly doctors – with these claims confounds me.”

      Ms. Ivy, read “The Lobotomist” a book about Dr Freeman, the guy who solved all your mental troubles with an icepick up the nose. (The nose- gateway to the mind!)
      Fooling doctors isn’t hard, especially if the have a self-interested reason to be fooled.

      • WildaBeast

        That guy was a sadistic nutbag quack. Holy hell, he gives me the creeps. Just reading his Wikipedia entry was horrifying.
        I will say that psychiatric science did some gruesome things in its infancy. I can see how, in the 1950s, it would be possible to justify a distrust of the entire profession (including the useful parts) based on some of the terrifying things that were done in the name of that particular science. It just became less and less possible to justify that hate and distrust as the science got better at helping folks. Despite that, Scientology has kept right on with the rabid ignorant hatred.

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Freeman may have been a quack, but it is not accurate to say that he was sadistic. It is an interesting thought experiment to consider what current medical practice, to which we willingly submit ourselves and our children to now, will be later viewed as horrifying.

        • Jon Hendry

          “I will say that psychiatric science did some gruesome things in its infancy.”

          Then again, the same is true of medical science as well.

          Consider the treatment of Queen Caroline’s umbilical hernia. The doctor cut a bit of protruding intestine, repeatedly, day after day, without anesthesia, and she eventually died.

          “Here lies, wrapt up in forty thousand towels, The only proof that Caroline had bowels. – Alexander Pope, Epitaph on Queen Caroline.”

    • ze moo

      I truly object to Lroons use of the word ‘valence’. Valence is the plus or minus charge on an atom or molecule. It is not a adjective describing any ones relationship to anything. Lroon would never have passed organic chemistry at any high school, let alone a college.

      • sugarplumfairy

        And as a lover of pretty curtains, I agree with you..

        • Mark

          Or if you like frilly bits round the edges of your bed.

          • sugarplumfairy

            I’ve rarely met a frilly bit I didn’t like..

      • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

        The term does have a history in neurology & psychiatry and is currently used in the affective neurosciences, i.e., ‘the valence hypothesis,’ which is the idea that the right cerebral hemisphere predominantly processes negative emotions and the left hemisphere processes positive emotions, based on observations that people that have a left hemispheric stroke tend to have a higher incidence of depression and visa versa for R hemi strokes. But I still agree with you in objecting to the way that LRH commandeered language to fuel is narcissism.

      • Sidney18511

        For some reason the word valance reminds me of something to do with window treatments.

      • WildaBeast

        I blush to admit this, but…
        For complicated reasons, I had only 2 1/2 months of chemistry in high school. I actually first encountered the word ‘valence’ in Scientologese I was reading and figured it was a made-up word, or a word given a wholly new definition, as Scientology tends to do.
        Then I started doing high school chemistry so I can do a Licensed Practical Nursing degree. Only then did I realize what the term originally meant. But as Sir Hemet points out below, the use of the word in other sciences has morphed its meaning.
        Even this I did not know until I’d learned what the word meant and started noticing it used in other ways.

      • Missionary Kid

        In the 50s, organic wasn’t really much of anything, was it? LRH would have a hard time passing high school math, I believe. That’s why he failed physics.

  • Collin

    Hello -been lurking here for quite some time, years actually just love the comments today, ive been reading your comments for so long i feel like i actually know some of you! just wanted to say hello and happy saturday! Just love the comments from Monkeyknickers and Poison Ivy and lets not forget Jon P!

    • q-bird

      Hello. How did you find your way to the underground bunker Collin?

      • Collin

        Ive been reading tonys blog for quite some time and keeping a close eye, im located near the Ybor city org and have been watching the she-nanigans go on there for a bit as well…..armed gaurds and the general harassment if i try to walk on their sidewalk- !

        • q-bird

          Forgive my ignorance please, but “Ybor city org” – where is this?

          You have never been in scientology, just live near a Morg yes?

          • Collin

            Tampa -its the old section of town

            • q-bird

              ok southern boy – you’re very near the mecca… you got your eyes on it. good.
              Can a sidewalk really be ‘theirs’? armed guards? for a {church}? odd that.

            • Sunny Sands

              They “do things” to make you uncomfortable to walk on the sidewalk in front of “their” buildings. Things like placing guards and lookouts on the sidewalk or just off the sidewalk, multiple security cameras aimed at the pedestrians, getting drop off parking over the sidewalk in front of the Ft. Harrison hotel. The front of the huge tent in Clearwater is about 18 inches from the sidewalk its entire length.

            • q-bird

              thank you Sunny – you I trust.

            • Sidney18511

              If I lived in that area this would burn my butt so much that I would be compelled to be on that sidewalk every single damn day.

            • aquaclara

              Yes, but be prepared for your photo to be taken and for the guards to watch you. There are security cameras everywhere, capturing both activity on public sidewalks as well as the license plates of cars driving by. It was never considered safe to go there. Anons have opened it up a bit, but you can still be followed and tracked. Even for just passing by.

        • Sunny Sands

          Are the guards armed in Tampa now? I heard some accounts of the guards being armed with M1 carbines at the Ft. Harrison in the 70s. Now in Clearwater I don’t see any evidence of concealed carry, just some barking dogs who look they would lick your hand if you gave them a treat.

          • Collin

            sunny i work right next to the org in ybor city, and i go to the bar right next door and the music venue across the street at least once a week or so, the guards that walk around the property HAVE GUNS , dont know if they are loaded or not but they are armed.

            • Sunny Sands

              Wonder if they are contracted with an outside security agency or they are clams. I think Clearwater just hires off-duty officers who would have a service revolver. For those not Floridians (or Texans), the laws about guns here are not as strict as some other places.
              Sidney18511, a flap has happened. Kyle Brennan’s father, a scientologist, had a gun at his apartment in Clearwater and presumably Kyle committed suicide with it after being off his medications. A lawsuit was filed but did not prevail, if I remember right.

            • Mooser

              Policeman are allowed to carry their service revolver off-duty in most places.

          • Captain Howdy

            I thought getting a CCW in FLA. was easier than getting a fishing license? I would assume some of them are armed.

            • Sidney18511

              WOW……isn’t that a flap waiting to happen? A brainwashed sheep protecting the tek with a loaded weapon, what could possibly go wrong?

  • BosonStark

    It puzzles me when clams or especially ex-clams can’t figure out why Hubbard said, “Always attack, never defend.” Granted, some current clams may not know that’s their policy.

    Obviously, it’s that Hubbard’s mishmash of horseshit is indefensible. It’s secret. You aren’t supposed to talk about this crap, because it reveals the con.

    • Missionary Kid

      They are blinded by the {{tech}}. There’s none so blind as those who will not see. They’re conditioned and hypnotized to accept it. It is truly indefensible.

      • Robert Eckert

        Blinded by the tek, ripped off by a douche, another conner in the night…

        • Missionary Kid

          Great!!! Goes in my file of things said about $cion.

  • KJP in Portland

    Hey MK…add ‘Squirm Worm’ 🙂

    • Missionary Kid

      Due to the disparities in Disqis, it works better if you just reply to any post of mine. I happened to see this, so it’ll be added, but it’s a bit obscure.

      • KJP in Portland

        Noted. I added this moniker because the worm is squirming about now over the recent negative? publicity and legal actions he (and Co$) is getting. So, Davey…squirm, you little worm!

  • Jgg2012

    I think that what Hubbard hated were successful psychiatrists.

    • Missionary Kid

      He hated successful psychiatrists…who spotted his con.

      • Captain Howdy

        And the fact he was mentally ill.

        • KJP in Portland

          Mentally ill…surely you’ve seen the Navy pic of him in rainy, dark Portland with the other Lieutenant J.G. on the deck of the corvette? There is Hubnerd all dour looking and wearing SUNGLASSES! A look at the surroundings are clearly showing that it was a cloudy day. Why was LRH wearing sunglasses, a very uncommon thing in rainy Portland in the early 1940s? That one picture alone always red-flagged me as to his mental faculties; just that one glance at him alone, for me, questioned his mental state…

          • RMycroft

            He did claim that he had an eye injury, and he always tried to hide the fact that he needed glasses.

            http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/RogerRamdrive/bOkB4_zps2668b337.gif~original

            • sugarplumfairy

              I’m not a doctor, but I’m pretty sure he should have some thyroid studies done..

              (trust me.. If you worked in healthcare, you’d think that was funny..)

            • RMycroft

              Smoking enough may “cure cancer”, but it is a danger factor for Graves Disease.

            • sugarplumfairy

              =)

            • jeff

              It was conjunctivitis.

            • ThetaBara

              Because “CLEARS” should not need glasses! Much less “OTs!”

              To quote Jason Beghe: “Show me a fucking Clear!”

        • Missionary Kid

          I guess I reserve the term mentally ill for those who can’t function. At best, he was a sociopath.

          • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

            I think that he had a big bad Cluster B personality disorder, and he was much heavier on the narcissism, but with a lot of histrionic and antisocial thrown in. Seems like there is a good chance the he may have been bipolar as well. I personally don’t think that he was nearly as sociopathic as DM, who tends to put a great deal of (adolescent and evil) thought into harming others, and then takes pleasure in knowing that he ruined them. I get the impression that LRH was just couldn’t even care about the pain he cause others because his empathic skills were seriously impaired. He thought so much of himself, his own ideas, and his legacy that how he negatively effected others did not even enter his mind.

            • Missionary Kid

              I pretty much agree with your evaluation of the two assholes.

          • ThetaBara

            There are degrees. Neurotic vs psychotic. Depressed people, anorexics, Borderline, even sociopaths can function in society. I dated a sociopath once. Biggest mistake of my life. He still functions in society, it’s just that he preys on people.

            • Missionary Kid

              You’re right. I guess I’m reluctant to put LRH in the mentally ill category because I believe he deserved to be in jail, not a mental ward. Of course the definition of mentally ill is different for the legal system than it is for the medical profession.

            • ThetaBara

              So particular about this yet so willing to label the Cabbage a {genius!} Look, I even put it in your brackety things! Just being good at something doesn’t make you a goddamn genius. Both of them were sociopaths IMHO and that IS a mental illness in my book. Cabbage, there are numerous examples – my favorite was making the people in the Hole play musical chairs *in order to stay in the Hole.* Hubs had offboarding (literally, and I do mean LITERALLY literally) throwing people off the boat, and locking kids in the chain locker, and that peanut pushing thing. No sane person does that kind of thing.
              Whether they are ultimately locked up in a jail cell or The Miscavige Hospital for the Criminally Insane doesn’t really matter to me. Just make them go away from the decent people!

            • Missionary Kid

              “Just make them go away from the decent people!” AMEN IN SPADES!

              Both kings of the clams deserve(d) to be thrown in jail like Ariel Castro.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Yeah, there’s that! OUr Southern SP Society International Weekend Beach Convention is going so well, we thought we spotted Captain Howdy at breakfast at Hubbard’s Marina (no really) and this was before bloody mary’s on the beachside grill at lunch today. Pics will be forthcoming. These kids are wearing me out. I have to take a nap, but wanted to get my PSA up while I take a break from the festivities.

          http://i44.tinypic.com/2ebes5u.jpg

          • Sunny Sands

            Love the dogs in the pic!

          • Mark

            Even Cerberus would be more likely to wag his tail(s) at you, if you were carrying some aniseed, rather than raw meat. Nice doggie!

          • Sidney18511

            THDNE….I am happy that the southern SP society had what looks like much fun on the beach with purple!

        • Anonymookme

          I agree. I think he was diagnosed with a personality disorder at some point, and detested the psychs from that point on.

          • ze moo

            Being a self-aggrandizing asshole is not a personality disorder, it is a state of being.

  • sisterchef

    I always felt that Hubbard was very much against psychiatry because it would be far easier for a person leaving scientology to get through the trauma if they went to get therapy. It seemed logical to me that even if someone left the church, the deep seated hate and fear they would have for psychology/psychiatry would deter them from seeking help. I see what you did there Hubbard…

    • Sidney18511

      LRon hated psychiatry because he believed that the psych community would welcome his discovery and him with rose petals and chocolates and when they said that the hubster was full of shit they became the enemy.

    • Spackle Motion

      Early psychiatry was really crude and harmful, I will agree with that to a limited extent. But it is a science that has had to evolve (as Geir says himself) from limited Freudian and Jungian (just to name the big ones) ideas to a biologically based science and a behavioral science. Many psychiatrists have made major shifts in their research to include pharmacology, and this was at a rudimentary stage in the 50s.

      With one Google search I can pull up many articles about this, but I have a close connection to some of the names there so I won’t produce links here.

  • media_lush

    probably total bollocks but lulzy just the same….

    “A dating service has reportedly been set up within the Church of Scientology to help Tom find the perfect partner.”

    http://www.film-news.co.uk/show-news.asp?H=Cruise-%E2%80%98holds-wife-auditions%E2%80%99&nItemID=21200

    • Missionary Kid

      I predict he will be just as successful as he was in all his past relationships.

    • RMycroft

      Why doesn’t he just use http://www.freespiritsingles.com/ like other Scientologists? (There was http://www.scientologypassions.com/ but that was ordered taken down by Scientology.)

      • media_lush

        a ‘big-being’ using an internet dating site?…. wouldn’t that cause a rip in the fabric of the space-time continuum?

        [surprised SNL haven’t done a sketch of this yet]

        • ze moo

          South Park is starting their new season soon. I hope for another ‘trapped in the closet’ episode. I don’t think SNL has the courage to really stick it to the clams.

          • Sidney18511

            I really wish that they would produce a musical like they did “the book of morman” on broadway about scientology.

        • 1subgenius

          Hell, Martha Stewart was on Match.com.
          She still hasn’t called me. Man, I would so hit that.

      • BananaSplits8

        Why doesn’t he just get an inflatable doll.

        -No SP cognitions
        -Compliant
        -Gets as good results as him when talking to ashtrays
        -No teeth to complain about
        -Has the “silent” sh*t dowwwwn

        • Mark

          He’ll be needing one of these, then:

          • Jon Hendry

            Unlikely.

        • ThetaBara

          Can’t take it on the red carpet. Next!

  • nottrue

    DM a marketing genius. Thats easy when your marketing to these guys

    • 1subgenius

      No it does not.

  • Mark

    Slubbard’s fear of “psychs” started early:

    • sugarplumfairy

      Lrh kinda looks like an unattractive Keanu Reeves in that pic..

  • ze moo

    Lrooon spent a lot of time in military hospitals in 44 and 45. He no doubt saw real ‘shell shock’ and PTSD and real schizophrenia. Schizophrenia often strikes (or manifests itself) in ages 18 to 25. The war in the Pacific was a nasty one and left a lot of mental problems for the soldiers. This is probably where Lrooon picked up his psychiatric knowledge and psych hatred. Hatred because he tried to get a free ride by faking ‘war injuries’ into a VA disability pension and was repeatedly turned for disability. As he was never in combat, he didn’t get a lot of sympathy from the system. But he did learn to fake psych symptoms and he did get a modest amount of disability payments. It’s is unfortunate that his VA record is confidential, I would like to see what he collected and what his ‘disability’ was.

    The late 40’s and 50’s was a time where many societies wrestled with questions about psychiatry and the human mind and spirit. Movies of the time explored war and its effect on people. Watch ‘The Best Years of Their Lives’ and see what American society thought about veterans. It is a profoundly sad and uplifting movie. How could the ‘civilized’ Germans do what they did? People really struggled to understand what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. Throw in the GI bill and college education for more people then ever before and you can see how learning and education became the ‘solution’ to the problems people saw. Add in the Korean War and what was done to allied pows and you can see how brainwashing became a common term.

    America has always been a haven for snake oil salesmen and ‘religious’ nuts, Lrooon chose to make his pile of money by being the great guru of the mind, the guy with all the answers. After screwing up Dianetics and losing control of it, he built a new system with more control and a better cash flow for him. After 1957, $cientology was all about the cash flow. Add in a lot of guru worship and Lroon was happy.

    ‘Auditors’ could make thousands (great money in the 50’s and 60’s) on the scam. All it takes is the ‘hook’, give the mark unmet expectations and say you can fulfill that unmet expectation. Then keep moving the expectation (target) farther and farther away. ‘You can’t fix that problem until you complete level 2 of the magic power course’. Then make it level 4 or 5 or whatever the mark can pay for. By keeping the marks isolated and unable to talk about reservations (‘knowledge’ reports, sec checking), everything in Lrooon land is always hunky dory. Anyone who didn’t conform to this system was expelled and vilified. Controls were established to keep everyone in line and worshiping the guru. Cons like this are not easy to escape. Your self worth is tied up in the group identity and leaving the group becomes very hard to do.

    The heart of the scam is auditing. It takes skill to manipulate strangers into buying in to the con. Auditors were very motivated to get new meat. They made nice money and they got the ‘saving mankind’ ego reinforcement. Manipulating people into the scam takes skill, psychological skill. Everything Lroon stole and learned was focused on getting the mark into auditing. Once that hook was successfully set, the mark is yours for as long as the scam wants them. Some call this marketing, but I call it manipulation.

    By centralizing auditing in mOrgs that have direct CO$ employees ($50 bucks a week, maybe) instead of auditors who could make a living off the scam, Lrooon killed the golden goose. Lack of incentive is what is killing the clamdom these days. Good riddance.

    Miscabitch is a poor shadow of a guru, or ‘ecclesiastical leader’ as he likes to be called. He can sell the same old turd to the faithful again and again, but even the most brain washed eventually get off the hamster wheel. You can’t keep charging people full price and send them back in line, before they go to a different club.

    • Mooser

      “By centralizing auditing in mOrgs that have direct CO$ employees ($50
      bucks a week, maybe) instead of auditors who could make a living off the
      scam, Lrooon killed the golden goose. Lack of incentive is what is
      killing the clamdom these days. Good riddance.”

      Ze moo, I thank you very much for that paragraph, and the one above it. You have, and I think pretty accurately, answered one of the central questions about Scientology I’ve had since I fell into the Bunker: “How about the people in the middle, don’t they get a cut? And what more-or-less is their character set-up?”

      You answered both questions very well.

      • Mooser

        ‘Auditors’ could make thousands (great money in the 50’s and 60’s) on
        the scam. All it takes is the ‘hook’, give the mark unmet expectations
        and say you can fulfill that unmet expectation.”

        You can’t scam all of the people, all of the time. Nope, you got to spread it around a little. Oh my, those auditors must have been one fine bunch of vipers. They were the bedrock of the cash-flow.

        • ze moo

          Respect your evil minions day is the day after ‘Bosses Day’.

      • ThetaBara

        The regs get a cut. The sea org gets bupkis.

    • Mooser

      “Some call this marketing, but I call it manipulation.”

      My psychiatrist has a very ugly name for it, but he refuses to tell me what it is until I catch up on his bill some.

      • ze moo

        You can tell a good psychologist or psychiatrist, some of their patients get better and go away and have a life. Other patients stay around until the insurance or private pay runs out, then the doc says they are better and sends them away. Every occupation has its good and bad practitioners. Psychological practices are very hard on the consumer, judging who is good and who is a schmuck is very hard.

    • ThetaBara

      He hated the psychs because they laughed at Dianetics (and I’m sure you can see why they did). He thought they would love it and take it seriously.

  • Illinoisian

    “. . . and given one semicolon begets another it wasn’t long before it was the march of the semicolons . . .”

    — and the “grown up kewpie doll” scientologist covering his face in despair (!??!!)

    [fingers immobile on keyboard, stunned expression, shaking head in disbelief]

    • Mark

      Shortarse Miscavige is an ignorant prick; fact.

      • 1subgenius

        I would tend to agree with you there.

    • 1subgenius

      I’m telling ya, you can’t achieve immortality when a semi-colon gets in the way.
      The “tech” is powerful, but not powerful enough to overcome a punctuation mark.

  • Satansthetan

    Have to say it, the idea that DM is a genius is so misguided it can ONLY be a joke. Please, the fool has, with the help of the useless-except-for-brainwashing “tech” managed to spend spend spend on empty buildings designed solely to make him look good in the eyes of his deluded followers. As for him actually believing he is saving the world or that LRH’s verbal diarrhea is worth one thin dime more than the paper/steel/titanium it is recorded on, again, “People, puhleeze!!!!”

    • Bob

      Not misguided. Just semantics. An evil genius is still genius at what he does. The difference is they almost always go down in flames. And their end result is destruction of their castles in the sand.

      • 0tessa

        I think Miscavige is more of a stupid genius if you ask me.

        • Bob

          It all boils down to adjectives. Stupid, evil, insane, mad, psychotic, criminal, etc.
          The point is Geir is just making a point regarding how MouseKavige has chosen to use his abilities. One can do broad work for good or evil.

          • Satansthetan

            Semantics? I guess I just fail to see the genius in taking a scam/con/shell game that was making a fortune and bringing in new suckers by the dozen and bringing it to the brink of destruction. Granted what he is selling is useless, manipulative rubbish, but that didn’t stop LRH (or make him have a pang of conscience by the way) from keeping it snowballing.

            • Mooser

              Well, if there’s one thing we can’t tolerate here, it’s anti-Semanticism.

            • Satansthetan

              Ha! Good one!

            • Mooser

              The only thing worse (in my opinion) than anti-Semanticism is anti-Semioticism. Unfortunately, you find it everywhere.

            • Candygram

              Since we’re taking positions, I must know how you stand on the longstanding conflict between the AntiPronoun Society and the Pronoun AntiDefamation League.

            • Satansthetan

              Ha! Good one Mooser!

            • Captain Howdy

              Hubbard was already in the process of killing the golden goose before he croaked.

            • Satansthetan

              Sure, by the time he was old and insane it was already a lost cause but in his younger days he dodged many bullets and threats to his cash cow. Somebody mentioned here the real problems started when he got too greedy for his own good and got rid of the well paid auditors was when the facade began to crumble, and I think they have an excellent point. DM has not an atom of genius in him, that it is an iron clad regime of fear with a mega bankroll is the only reason the scam has lasted this long. But, thanks in part to Tony, not much longer.

            • Jon Hendry

              Perhaps getting the tax exemption led to complacency. Less incentive to work the scam as hard.

              Then again, Miscavige is somewhat hamstrung by not being able to really create truly new materials because he isn’t LRH and somehow didn’t think to obtain or forge LRH’s blessing to create new ‘tech’. Thus instead of creating further OT levels, he just puts out re-edits of Hubbard’s worn-out tripe and makes everyone do everything again, at great expense.

        • 1subgenius

          As my hillbilly illiterate factory foreman told me years ago, “Oh yeah, if you’re so smart why ain’t you rich?”
          Shut me up purty quick.

      • 1subgenius

        Yeah, it’s all semantics, and opinion.

        • Bob

          I think that Evil is the operative word here.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      While it is a stretch for a normal rational mind, it makes a bit of sense to me that DM is so narcissistically deluded that he actually believes his own big-being bullshit. The incentives to believe he is saving the world are powerful and serve to maintain the delusions. And even if he is a ‘genius’ on one level, doesn’t mean he can’t be an idiot on most others. Maybe he is a marketing genius in the same way that Bil Maher said the 9/11 suicide pilots were brave.

      • Robert Eckert

        “the 9/11 suicide pilots were brave” Exactly. Maher took a lot of flak for that, but “brave” and “evil” are not mutually exclusive any more than “genius” and “evil” are. Martin Gardner’s Fads and Fallacies book listed all kinds of woo-woo popular in the 50’s, almost none of which has left any trace in modern memory. How much do you know about Alfred Lawson and his religion of Lawsonomy? It is awesome, in a nauseating way, that LRH kept his con going for 30 more years, but isn’t it outright bizarre that Miscavige is still keeping it going (at all, however many holes below the waterline his ship has taken) 30 years after the old fart was dead, without a single new idea of his own?

        • Nevermore

          Indeed. Some of my ancestors are decried as criminals and terrorists for fighting against the invasion of their country. I don’t see them as that at all. It’s all a matter of perspective.

          • Captain Howdy

            Up The Rebels!

            • Sherbet
            • Captain Howdy

              Nice, but I was thinking more like this..

              http://youtu.be/ORifieiZiP4

            • sugarplumfairy

              I saw the Pogues do it live once.. I didn’t know the song at the time, so I didn’t get why their audience went nuts over it..

              btw why is everybody going private now? When the number of comments gets ridiculous, I used to be able to follow interesting convos by going into my Disqus but you and Sherb and some others are foiling me by being private..

            • Sherbet

              I haven’t done anything different,’fairy.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Oops.. My mistake..

            • Captain Howdy

              I went private because I feel there’s a “game’ afoot and with the large influx of new commentators I decided to take pro-active measures until all the players reveal themselves. I’m an old pro at this, plus I’m part injun, so I always trust my instincts.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Now that just intrigues me… just what have you said in the past that one might use against you? 😉

            • Captain Howdy

              You don’t understand, as a legendary troll hunter/bouncer for years on youtube i know all the tricks. And peoples past internet comments are a goldmine for getting dox or figuring out people’s “ruin” or “buttons”. I’m just being pro-active.

              I’ve been seeing..patterns..and Clams on the wire

              http://youtu.be/T-p8XZw_StQ

            • sugarplumfairy

              my only ruin is Haagen Dazs..

            • ThetaBara

              Mine is kittens. But everyone knows that. Ehh, I am too small a fish to be worried about.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Okay warrior… it’s serious business keeping yourself anonymous here on he inter-webs. :p
              Patterns? Educate me?

            • Captain Howdy

              Ask Will.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Who’s Will?

            • Captain Howdy

              Sorry EO I am an currently chasing a bat around a ceiling fan.

            • Sherbet

              Yikes, now you have me scared. How do I go private?

            • Captain Howdy

              I don’t think you need to do it, but go to edit profile>my profile> and click the box that says “make my activities private”.

            • Sherbet

              Thanks.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I trust your instincts too..

            • Captain Howdy

              You saw the Pogues? What year? I saw them in ’86 at the Fillmore and it was one of the all-time great shows I’ve seen. I was suppose to see Shane and the Popes in like ’96 but i went into a blackout right before he came on and I left the club.

            • sugarplumfairy

              NYC summer 95.. Or 94.. But I’m pretty sure 95..

            • Sherbet

              Cool!

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Great lead on Alfred Lawson. I had not heard of him until now. Have not read Gardner’s book either, but I am aligned with his successors. Looking forward to checking him out! Of the many current manifestations of the good scientific skepticism, I follow the science-based medicine blog and Steven Novella’s blog, Neurologica. Science based pharmacy is also good.

        • EnthralledObserver

          I think it is less ‘genius’ and more ‘lack of conscience’. Anyone can do what David Makemerich is doing, but most would feel bad about doing it, so wouldn’t.

          • Mooser

            “Anyone can do what David Makemerich is doing, but most would feel bad about doing it, so wouldn’t.”

            One would think, wouldn’t one, that it would do a hell of a job on your self-respect. That is, assuming you had some to lose, and noticed it leaving. He may not, or may very well have convinced himself that; ‘This is how the world operates, so I’m only doing what everybody else does, except I’m better at it’ You never know with guys like him.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Yep… he’s certainly justifying it within himself somehow.
              Me… I’d be horrified to become named a defendant in just one lawsuit, but to be named in numerous you’d surely start to wonder just what you might be doing wrong that’s upsetting the community you lived in to push them to such a degree. So, David Makemerich knows what he is doing is wrong, it’s just a case of what story he’s telling himself to justify it that I’m not sure about. Either way he doesn’t care.

            • ThetaBara

              That’s very typical sociopath thinking. They essentially lack empathy, so for them, life is like Sim City.

    • Missionary Kid

      Google “define genius” and at the bottom, this is what you get:
      adjective
      informal
      1.
      very clever or ingenious.
      “a genius marketing ploy”

      That is the sense the word genius is being used.

      • Satansthetan

        While I appreciate the vocab lesson Professor MK I think you are missing the point, which quite simply is that I fail to see any cleverness in repackaging the same old stuff over and over and flogging it back to an ever dwindling number of punters while milking them for as many $ as you possibly can. In fact that seems downright DUMB and I think the fact that the cult is shrinking as members of all ranks are leave in droves proves this to be true. DM is killing scientology, how ingenious is that? Footbullet anyone?

        • Missionary Kid

          I apologize for coming across like an asshole.

          The cleverness is that he’s prevented it from shrinking faster, and that so far, the net income, according to John P’s evaluation isn’t negative…yet. I believe that if NarCONon starts taking hits, and they pierce the corporate veil, the net income will be in the red.

          If he wasn’t as fast on his feet, the cult would have slid into oblivion much quicker.

          Considering the restrictions on his position (i.e., the inability to become a prophet himself, lack of charisma, and insistence on his interpretation of LRH’s works be treated as absolute gospel, and finally that the product he’s selling is defective), he’s done remarkably well.

          That’s kinda like saying the ship took years to sink instead of months.

          I believe that, given his lack of education and knowledge of the outside world, and lack of personal intellectual resources, he’s done very well. If a person less predatory were COB, I believe it would have folded decades ago.

          On the other hand, I believe that the opening of the SP building really will mark the even more rapid slide into oblivion.

          By cruelty and intimidation and tricks he learned from LRH, DM has “succeeded” in intimidating or making it unwise for anyone to really speak out against the cult.
          If it weren’t for the internet, IMO, Co$ would be much more powerful than it is. Mr footnuke will cause the whole magilla to slid off into oblivion much faster from now on, but up until now, he’s kept the wolves at bay far better than anyone with not even a high school GED could be expected.

          • Satansthetan

            Nicely put, and thanks for the apology, but I still think it wouldn’t take too much brains to “find” a lost file cabinet chock full of more hogwash and pass it off as long lost texts or some similar shenanigans. The lack of creativity is to me the sign of his weakness. But yeah, through small minded fascistic behavior he sure has dragged out the inevitable demise of this twisted cult.

            • Candygram

              When people here say DM is a genius, I read it as ” that guy has an insane knack for being a devious, self-serving, manipulative asshole.” I don’t think anyone here is saying he’s intelligent in ways generally considered learned, redeeming or admirable. Dude is a genius at graft and abuse, not in the liberal arts, chemistry, rocket design, et al. Just my 2cents.

    • ThetaBara

      He’s not a genius. He’s an pretty effective sociopath, although he did inherit most of the system. Most of the changes he made are what is bringing it down, though, don’t forget.

  • Artoo45

    Miscavige’s “genius” is born of the desperate situation he (and Hubbs) created for himself. It’s a P.T. Barnum, L. R. Hubbard con-man kind of genius. “I have this shitty product and this shitty situation, how can I keep squeezing money out of it and not losing control?” At least Barnum could scour the globe for new acts and oddities, poor ol’ Davy and his Fake Navy are stuck with the volumes of unintended hilarity that Hubbard left them with. So aside from the real estate scam currently in full swing, their only options are to . . .
    A. Keep the tech “Pure” and watch their numbers dwindle.
    B. Continue with the GAT (insert level here) scam until people get wise a leave en masse.
    C. “Uncover” new levels that are “found” and disseminate them to the clamoring clams.
    D. Become a prophet! Start to channel new tech from ol’ Hubbs live from Target 2. An endless supply of unimpeachable cra-cra for as long as Dear Leader lives.

    • Mooser

      Seems to me that Mascagni thought he could eliminate the well-paid auditors, he could make up for it with money from celebs.

      • Mooser

        That reminds me, next Thursday I’m going to mosey on over to the Scientology Church on Republican Street in Seattle and see what’s what. I’ll get to the bottom of this.

        • Mooser

          “Miscavige’s “genius” is born of the desperate situation he (and Hubbs) created for himself.”

          Yes, necessity may be the mother of invention, but desperation is usually the scam’s proud parent.

        • Candygram

          Oh weird! You’re on QA too? Me and the 3year old cast shade on that place on the way to and from myrtle Edwards. LOVEZ the newish walkway! Tell us how it goes!!

          • Mooser

            Tell us how it goes!!”

            As you wish. I’ll go next Thurs. And I’ll write up my impressions, and either submit them here, enter them as a comment, or if I’m banned by then, publish them on my blog, Moosehall (Where Mooses ‘yard’)

      • tetloj

        Mooser, just have to say how much I am enjoying your commentary…

        • Mooser

          Thanks, but making jokes about Scientology is like shooting fish in a barrel, except the fish like it better.

    • Robert Eckert

      He doesn’t really have option D, because he has no creativity whatsoever.

    • ThetaBara

      I like to call thme the Damnation Navy. Not sure who said it first (wasn’t me).

  • J. Swift

    While Hubbard borrowed heavily from several writers and theorists, it is incorrect to dismiss Scientology as pure plagiarism as the facts show otherwise.

    In the period from 1948 -1951 Hubbard wrote The Original Thesis and Dianetics, the latter of which became an overnight bestseller. Dianetics groups sprang up all over the country and Hubbard opened a few centers. However, Dianetics soon cratered — and it cratered hard. There was a bankruptcy in which Hubbard lost the rights to Dianetics. There was also his messy divorce from Sara Northrup Hubbard that was splattered all over the newspapers. Sara said that Ron was inane and violent. Ron said that Sara was a Communist whore and a a drug addict. Hubbard called all of his enemies Communists for it was a popular and damning slur in the McCarthy witch hunt era. Hubbard would later morph Communists into Psychs and SP’s, but I digress.

    In the midst of this intense period, Hubbard made a spectacular leap forward,

    What Hubbard did was nothing less than genius within the context of that time, for he took Sigmund Freud’s technique of free association and Volney Mathison’s electropsychometer and “associative processing” and synthesized them into a new analytical method he called Scientology auditing. After he did this, Hubbard quickly dropped the previous psychotherapeutic techniques he had borrowed from in order to innovate Scientology auditing.

    From 1952 forward, it all become Scientology auditing and the older analytical frameworks Hubbard had experimented with fell away like useless old scaffolding.

    Hubbard believed so strongly in the meter that he negotiated the exclusive worldwide rights to the e-meter from Volney Mathison. As a side note, Mathison excluded L.A. and NYC from the global agreement. Once Hubbard locked up the rights to the e-meter, he began to openly promote his new analytical fusion, Hubbard also credited Freud and Mathison.

    This is a page from Volume 1 of a very old edition of the red volumes. Don’t know if Miscavige has nuked this bulletin from the new red vols:

    http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/FreudVolney_zpsdbe9ec57.jpg

    • Mooser

      I have a cheap Sears Craftsman Digital Multimeter, and a splendid old Triplett Model 650 VTVM, and at my wife’s place of work they sell excellent Fluke meters, and we’ve got all kinds oscilliscopes and digital signal tracers at the shop, but I have got to get my hands on an E-meter! No doubt it is wonderfully accurate at measuring, well, measuring….well, what, exactly does it measure?

      • Mooser

        “What Hubbard did was nothing less than genius within the context of that time”

        Don’t you see? He took an type of healing which was so hard to apply effectively and automated it! He quantified (with his e-meter) psychiatry. And effectively disposed of centuries of mysticism, too! I mean, why sit around all day in your BVDs chanting “om” when you can solve all you problems by measuring ohms!
        Yes, in terms of quackery marketing, it was genius, exactly right for the times.

        • Mooser

          “Volney’s electropsychometer”

          Ah, I see, it measures electropsychos! Well, I guess everybody’s got ’em, and it might be good to know how many. I would have thought the only thing you could measure that way was body electrical resistance, a variable property, depending on several things. But it might be possible to measure capacitance too, but I doubt it, that gets expensive.

          Go into a session with dry palms, and you’re a sick man. Spit on your hands, and your cured! The meter has come down out of the red zone!

          • Mooser

            “Sara said that Ron was inane and violent.”

            She sure had him pegged, huh?

            • sugarplumfairy

              Sara was right.. ron was insanely inane..

      • J. Swift

        Mooser, I don’t understand your replies. What exactly are you trying to say?

        • Mooser

          I’m sorry, the entire subject, I admit, makes me uncontrollably giddy. But what I’ve always wanted to know is, what does and e-meter measure, and how does it measure it?

          Good Lord, thank God Hubbard never got ahold of an oscilloscope! Can you imagine what you could do with a couple of electrodes and a computer? ‘Look here, this is your brain on engrams!’

          And I love the article, and thanks for expanding on the article in the comment thread.

          • J. Swift

            Mooser, Hubbard claimed that the meter measures mental mass and bootstrapped from there to evolve auditing and build his Bridge.

            The e-meter actually measures galvanic skin response. The Wiki page on galvanic skin response states:

            “Skin conductance, also known as galvanic skin response (GSR), electrodermal response (EDR), psychogalvanic reflex (PGR), skin conductance response (SCR) or skin conductance level (SCL), is a method of measuring the electrical conductance of the skin, which varies with its moisture level. This is of interest because the sweat glands are controlled by the sympathetic nervous system,[1] so skin conductance is used as an indication of psychological or physiological arousal. ”

            “Therefore, if the sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system is highly aroused, then sweat gland activity will also increase, which in turn increases skin conductance. In this way, skin conductance can be used as a measure of emotional and sympathetic responses.[2] There has been a long history of electrodermal activity research, most of it dealing with spontaneous fluctuations or reactions to stimuli.”

            ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_conductance

            • Mooser

              So it basically measures body resistance, and if your sweat glands are all tuned up and ready to respond to everything, it might actually tell you something.

              Well, my Sears Digital Multimeter can do that, and my Triplett Model 650 VTVM can do it even better, and you have to plug it in and it has an awesome bakelite case and the “Red Dot: lifetime guarantee meter movement is a thing of beauty, the meter so sensitive it quivers like the nostrils of a thoroughbred horse.
              I could make my fortune with that thing! I’m gonna try it out on my wife. If I know one thing about her, it’s that her resistance is very high, she’s resisted me for years.
              Thanks for telling me about all those fancy names and terms for sweating and body resistance, they’ll come in handy.

            • deselby

              If I might add one detail to J Swifts great description, the main measurement of interest to scientology is a rapid reduction in skin resistance, particularly when it occurs in response to a question. It is a sign of emotional distress which scientology calls a “fall” and it shows up on an emeter as the needle moving quickly to the right. It’s much easier to see on an analog meter.

            • Mooser

              Right ,it measures resistance through the body, which changes some, in response to various factors. In conjunction with a lot of other information it might tell you something (heart rate, breathing rate, EKG, and oh, how do you establish baseline readings for, what is it you’re after “engrams”?)

              So basically, in terms of your mind, character, mental or psychiatric make-up, emotional states, it doesn’t measure shit. It measures, to some extent (grip has the greatest effect, actually, and again, baseline?) how sweaty your palms are. And who wipes your palms clean so each successive whatever can be measured. Sweat takes time to evaporate.

              So it is indeed, pure, unadulterated bullshit, which anybody with even a hobbyist’s knowledge of electricity should see through.

            • deselby

              The thing is, they ask you question, and if the needle moves, it means you are uncomfortable with the question. It really doesn’t matter if it measures sweat, grip, or whatever. Mathison pointed that out in one of his patents.

            • Mooser

              “The thing is, they ask you question, and if the needle moves, it means you are uncomfortable with the question.”

              Oh no, you’re kidding right? No, it measures, to some extent, the resistance through your body, and possibly your grip on the cans, (and don’t forget there’s a “range expander” there, too, nudge-nudge, wink-wink)

              Please, find me and link us to the evidence that lowered body resistance, measured from hand to hand, has any direct bearing on any goddamed thing that’s going on in your mind. And again, what is the baseline? You can’t really think that, absent any other data and baseline data, it could be any more use than simply, say, observing body language.

            • deselby

              I’d say its very much like observing body language. The idea with both is that you are seeking any kind of involuntary response that may indicate discomfort.

            • Mooser

              “I’d say its very much like observing body language. The idea with both
              is that you are seeking any kind of involuntary response that may
              indicate discomfort.”

              I suppose the e-meter might help, who knows. Given the eagerness with which some people embrace their own exploitation, it wouldn’t surprise me if the subject (victims) learned when to squeeze the can to get a “fall”

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              The power differential between examiner and examinee is all important, as is the belief on the examinee’s part that the device actually reveals secrets. Such devices were used in psychological research to improve the honesty of the subjects, but were mostly abandoned because of the ethical issues that arose because of their deceptive nature. Search ‘bogus pipeline’ in google scholar for the details, or just watch this for a dramatization: http://youtu.be/GI6tu3Q9Jmo

            • EnthralledObserver

              Wouldn’t simply holding a metal can steady in your palm for any length of time increase the amount your palms would sweat?

            • deselby

              Yes, but the slower long-term changes are compensated for periodically with a control they call a tone arm.

            • Mooser

              “slower long-term changes are compensated for”

              Against what baseline? It’s absurd. At best, along with a shark-like auditor eager to set the hook, it might tell you something. Come to think of it, it’d sure work well for establishing just how dumb and gullible the “mark” (is that not a correct Scientology term?) or “rube” or “sucker” to use the precise medical terminology, really is. There’s your baseline, baby, there’s your baseline!

            • J. Swift

              Mark, you’re confusing a Scientology auditor with a Scientology registrar.

            • EnthralledObserver

              lol… maybe

            • Mooser

              “Mooser, you’re confusing a Scientology auditor with a Scientology registrar.”

              Yes, I see what you mean, yup, I’m sort of conflating them. Did the “auditors” and the “registrar” exist at the same time, but do different things, or did the “registrar” function develop later?

              In either case, it’s, at the very least, one hell of an abuse of human trust.

            • grundoon

              There’s no baseline and no real units of measurement. That’s why the e-meter doesn’t really measure anything. It responds to changes in resistance across the cans, but doesn’t measure the changes.

              The auditor continuously adjusts a scale factor until the needle moves in a certain pattern. Nobody cares whether the meter is set to observe a large, medium, or small change in resistance, only that the needle moves back and forth across the dial in a favorable direction and distance which Hubbard calls “floating.”

            • EnthralledObserver

              Your body could easily be reacting to something else, or a number of other things… the human body is doing millions of actions at a time… it’s a bit rich to assume it’s the content of your ‘thoughts’ alone that are causing such reactions.

            • ThetaBara

              It’s also possible to fool the meter, as many exes have said.

            • J. Swift

              Here is how Hubbard and Mathison did a co-branding thing in 1952 to roll out the meter and auditing to early Scientologists:

              http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i68/sadhu77/Notes-on-Technique-100.jpg

            • Mooser

              And thanks again for adding to comments. This stuff is fascinating. Creepy, and disheartening ( in an “Oh what a piece of work is man” sort of way) but fascinating.

            • Robert Eckert

              Oh man it’s getting late, I read that as “Hubbard and Manson did a co-branding thing”

            • J. Swift

              Maybe they did in some parallel universe.

            • Missionary Kid

              “It doesn’t measure shit” is correct. ” Lie detectors,” which are much more sophisticated, cannot be used in court, because there is so much subjectivity in interpreting the results.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Here’s another such device in action..this provides the evidence and insight into the way the e-meter actually works: http://youtu.be/GI6tu3Q9Jmo

            • Mooser

              Didn’t work. She took one look at the set-up and said: “If you expect me to sit here and hold beer cans and talk to you, that goddamed beer can better be full!” Oh well.

            • J. Swift

              So go buy her a six pack.

            • Mooser

              When she finishes the keg, perhaps I will.

            • J. Swift

              The debate of efficacy aside, Volney Mathison’s original “Chiropractic Electropsychometer” is a thing of beauty:

              http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i68/sadhu77/_DSC0045-Mathison-Meter-Ful.jpg

            • Mark

              Ooh! More Bakelite, transfers and crinkle-paint!

            • Mark

              Here’s a De La Warr radionic ‘Black Box’ that’s almost as retro-chic:

            • 1subgenius

              Does it go to 11?

            • Mark

              Only to 10 – but 12 times!
              P.S. Whoever owns this particular model might have just gone over it with a duster and some Pledge before photographing it. There’s still a lot of gunge around that rubber pad at the bottom r.h. corner which you’re supposed to rub with a finger until it sticks – thus indicating that the box has picked something up from a specimen in one of the two copper-coil lined wells at the top. Which leads me to infer, sadly, that some fool out there still thinks there’s something to ‘Radionics’…

            • Mooser

              Don’t fall for it, Mark. As industrial design goes, my Triplett has it all over the e-meter. That looks like a science-fair project. Or an amateur hi-fi speaker switch. My Triplett has class. And history! I got it from the clear-out sale of a Hammond organ repair service, Puget Sound Organ. There’s a meter that seen it all, a meter with vast experience, tact and discretion. Which one would you go to with your innermost secrets and desires?

              Take a look

            • Mark

              Neither. I’m sticking to my Tesla coil.

            • J. Swift

              Love the Triplett, but I’m not going with anything less than the Large Hadron Collider:

              http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/lhc15_zps1af411e8.jpg

            • Mooser

              Could somebody photo-shop a dentists chair on gimbals in the middle of that? It’ll be better than the gizmo in the Super Power building!

            • kemist

              Ah, you’ve got a Higg’s boson engram ?

            • J. Swift

              Yes and it’s stuck in an electronic incident.

            • Mooser

              Ah, you’ve got a Higg’s boson engram”

              Yes, and sure enough, it’s heaving.

            • J. Swift

              Mark, please relax on the couch and our Dr. Neely will be glad to help you:

              http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i68/sadhu77/Mathison2.png

            • media_lush

              thought I’d share this one again

            • J. Swift

              What is President Lincoln doing inside that device?

            • Mark

              Smelling Tublard’s special anti body-thetan gas, or LRH flatus, as it’s more familiarly known.

            • ThetaBara

              I think you mean nitrous oxide.

            • Mark

              Sorry, J; I’m already registered with Dr. Strabismus of Utrecht (on whom be peace). His gizmo has a solid mahogany case (pooh to mere burlwood veneers) and lots of mysterious rubber tubes:

            • Mooser

              “His gizmo has a solid mahogany case”

              My Leslie 147 is the “light oak” finish.

            • Mark

              Veneerist! Dr. Strabismus’s mysteriously large Oriental assistant Miss Tsai-Chin Proutley is of course quite strong enough to move the very heavy device whenever required.

            • J. Swift

              Yes, but does his gizmo allow the analysand to blow charge?

            • Mark

              Ah, but what do you think that wider-gauge tube that disappears under the patient is for? You can see that Dr. Strabismus (on whom be peace) has a rubber squeeze-bulb in his right hand; the slightest pressure on this – amplified by the gizmometer’s patented mechanism, naturally – causes any amount of charge to blow.

            • J. Swift

              Whatever Dr. Strabismus is doing to you sounds highly irregular. Have you thought about taking a few drops of radioactive water in your morning health whiskey to help you?

              http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/radiothor_zpsbd019126.jpg

            • Mark

              Tried it, but oddly enough it spoilt the taste. Dr. Strabismus (on whom be peace) recommended these instead:

            • Mooser

              ‘Here, Miss, let me adjust that, uh, uh, pectoral strap, so it’s more comfortable…’

            • Mark

              Was it Dr. Strabismus or Miss Proutley who said that?

            • ThetaBara

              I used to have a vibrating “massage chair” that looked just like that.
              Also, ALL of Dinaetics, Scientology, etc IS utter bullshit, repackaging of others’ ideas and fabrication. Show me something original, just one thing. Other than the made up words, there is nothing. I don’t buy it.
              Unless your above statement about Hubbard and genius was sarcasm, in which case I apologize for missing it.

          • Robert Eckert

            It’s an ohmmeter. That’s all.

      • ze moo

        Georg Ohm insists you obey the law.

        • J. Swift

          Hubbard wanted the entire planet to obey the Wheatstone Bridge as used within the Church of Scientology:

          http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/tunwheat_zpsab1538a3.jpg

          • deselby

            Just fyi, the emeter is not a wheatstone bridge and it is not based on a wheatstone bridge. I know Hubbard liked saying that, and thats what it says on wiki, but it isn’t true. Its a simple divider circuit, at least it was up to 1996. A divider is like half a bridge, and shares none of the key benefits of bridge measurements, such as precision and immunity to supply drift. Anybody who knows electronics can confirm this.

            • J. Swift

              Hubbard filed for a patent on his e-meter in 1966. This link shows his schematics and claims: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/hubbard-patent.html

              Homer Smith posted an e-meter schematic online in 1995:

              http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/homer-emeter_zps7d48ea36.gif

            • J. Swift

              Deselby, here is Volney Mathison’s original schematic:

              http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n196/scienowriter/2684670-d1_zpsce5479a1.gif

            • Mark

              Dammit, where did he put Fig. 3? Ah, here it is:

            • deselby

              Like I said — not a Wheatstone Bridge, and not even remotely based on one. And I’m referring to the Smith schematic above, as well as Hubbard’s patent figures 2 and 3, as well as a Mark V meter.

              They are all voltage dividers. The basic principle being you put a second resistance in series with a subject, a voltage across the pair, and the output is the divided voltage between them. The main feature of a divider measurement is non-linearity.

              To be very specific, in the schematic above, the applied voltage exists between the wiper of R3 and the top side of R4. The resistance in series with the subject is R4+R5+R7. And as you can see, the output comes from the junction of the subject and R7 and goes to the base of the first transistor in the amplifier section. QED.

            • Mooser

              ” To be very specific, in the schematic above, the applied voltage exists
              between the wiper of R3 and the top side of R4. The resistance in
              series with the subject is R4+R5+R7. And as you can see, the output
              comes from the junction of the subject and R7 and goes to the base of
              the first transistor in the amplifier section”

              My dear sir, there may be children reading this! A graphic description of electrical intercourse is in dubious taste.

            • J. Swift

              Thank you deselby. Your description will put to very good use.

          • Mooser

            “Just fyi, the emeter is not a wheatstone bridge”

            Then why is the toll so ridiculously high?

      • Missionary Kid

        What it is, (someone please correct me if I’m wrong) and you can find the circuit diagram online, is an analog ohmmeter that measures the resistance along the skin, with the scale amplified at the point where the meter is set. The problem is that by using cans instead of electrodes, it’s possible for the person being audited to vary the resistance with different tricks.

        Also, the operator can fiddle with it to say what they want.

        It is not an actual measure of emotion, or the discharge of thought energy, as LRH wanted people to believe, but only the change in skin resistance caused by the involuntary secretions of salts by the sweat glands. The sweat glands react to emotions, but the reaction is a second order one. It only show that the person had a reaction, it cannot tell whether the reaction was negative or positive.

  • Sunny Sands

    This is the back of the tent. There is a white fence, then some grass, then the sidewalk, which is next to public on-street parking. It’s on Court St., the only road to the beach for several miles. I predict they could never shut down this road for a clam party, or there would be a riot. Could they close off the sidewalk? I say no, because that would force pedestrians into the very busy Court St. The road in front of the tent, Franklin St., they will surely close off for the Flag building dedication and IAS gathering.

    • Sherbet

      Looks like a Jiffy Pop bag.

    • Mark

      Fascinating. Your continuing record of this unnecessary imposition on Clearwater is terribly addictive, Sunny! Here’s another example of what happens to unwanted tents:

      • Sunny Sands

        In the front of the tent, there is a grass strip about 18″ between the tent and the sidewalk and no fence for the entire front width. A fence is just in the back as of now. This pic shows the front and how close it is to the sidewalk.

        • Mark

          So the white fence goes when they’ve finished working on that part, eh? They’re going to need an awful lot of goons to keep potential SPs away from the whole perimeter then, or else effectively shut down access to the seafront by closing off still more roads – possibly till next spring?! I see trouble ahead (chortles evilly).

        • Missionary Kid

          Thanks. When they pack ’em in, the fire marshal is gonna require that they have all of those openings pretty free so that if a fire occurs, people will be able to exit rapidly. Doors with crash bars on them, or some other means of allowing people to get out unimpeded will be necessary, along with lit exit signs.

          Let’s have everyone hoping for a microburst the day before. Of course, if nothing happens, Co$ will claim that their powers over MEST prevented it.

        • Aslansown

          Isn’t it going to be extremely hot in there, or can they install some sort of AC?

    • nottrue

      DM I can hear you . Dam he is short

      • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

        They might have to turn the volume way down again. Which, based on what Marc Headley has said, must seriously chap DM’s ass.

      • ze moo

        I love the cammo and the big, bright, shiny light reflecting jim dandy wizzer…..This picture is the definition of ‘cognitive dissonance.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Gosh… she’s a bit ugly…

  • AsthmaticDwarf

    Another stellar video production from Angry Gay Pope, J Swift, and K de la C !! And Geir is so terrific! And our host also gave us another fantastic article with Jon. Stellar Saturdays from Ortega!

  • Moonshot

    Whatever humanitarian motivations LRH may or may not have had, it is clear he was obsessed with self-promotion, which made it necessary for him to claim many ideas as his own, or at the very least, not give propper atributtion for them. It is also telling that he seemed to compulsively denigrate the sources of those ideas, while at the same time trumpeting the importance of these ideas to mankind.

    This frame of mind either necessitated the later building of his gestapo style Sea Org operation, in order to shield his flock from outside influences and enforce the idea that all his ideas where uniquely his own, or was the early foundation of it and he planned it all along.

    Given that LRH’s early rhetoric was so uniformly “against the man” and libretarian in nature, it would seem to lend credence to the idea that the Sea Org was a later ad hoc reaction to his developing paranoia. But who really knows. Either way, it happened and he was the source of it.

    Yes, David Miscavaige is a sick bastard, but as this evidence rolls out, nobody honestly looking at this situation can claim that LRH was pure as the wind given snow and that DM is the evil bastard who is responsible for all that is evil in Scientologidom. Without LRH organizing his philosophy as an “only built here” subject, and then laying in all the nasty policies and practices found in his Flag Orders, Admin Tech, and Ethics Tech, DM would have had no internally legal or functional base to operate from.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      That’s better, Moonshot. Not a single insult. But you need to read a bit more broadly and deeply to better understand LRH’s “Humanitarian motivations.” It is possible for someone to claim humanitarian motivation, but then demonstrate virtually no humanitarian effect. Which, Moonshot, is what you will find if you can truly free yourself from the thought-stopping influence of the tech, and get yourself a proper education or at least a grounding in scientific/critical thinking skills.

  • Deeana

    “But you need to read a bit more broadly and deeply…”
    Why do I suspect that many of those who fall/fell for the Scientology line of bullcrap were, in addition to often being “at a bad place in life” were uneducated?
    And, speaking from experience, MANY people who took LSD back in the day reported having a “spiritual experience”. Not some, many. How else can you describe becoming one with a blade of grass? Seeing music? Etc, etc. It was called Windowpane.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      Or with a cloud, which the Microdot made quite tasty 😉

      • Deeana

        Oh, yes. That too, Sir Hemet. Good times.

      • ThetaBara

        LO, “Sir Helmet!”

      • Nevermore

        Oh, the Microdot was my favourite! I went into a church in Kensington, in London, while still tripping on one. It was a proper old-fashioned Gothic revival building, all marble and gold and velvet. I was quite sure I was in Heaven. The Vicar let me hang out there for a while, which was good of him, so I just sat there and enjoyed the vibe. Sigh. All I have nowadays is chocolate. And some half-decent painkillers. I’m pretty sure if more people had a smoke, or dropped some decent acid, we’d be a more peaceful planet – who wants to fight when you can fall into the pattern on someone’s shirt? Of course, no-one would want to work either, which might pose a problem!

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    Ok, yesterday I got a little carried away with some unkind thoughts and posted an edgy version of a parody of the scientology anthem “we stand tall”. I called it “we stand trial” It was funny, but a little too cutting, I now realize.

    So, I did some more careful listening and hereby present the new, kinder and gentler version of:

    “We stand trial”

    Sung to the the tune of “We stand tall”:

    I got a subpoena the other day
    I dreaded reading the news it had to say
    My freedom the price I now have to pay
    From now on

    Wrists joined together, the cuffs are on
    A sob in my voice, a choking sound
    It screams through the halls of justice
    We stand trial
    (Yes we do)

    We were forced to take the stand
    To defend the crimes we planned

    We stand trial, the karma hurts, it makes us pay
    We stand trial
    It’ll never stop, the guilt goes on
    We stand trial

    Knowing the truth will con-vict me
    And take me from here to solitary
    I told lies I hoped they’d never see
    We stand Trial

    And my little cell is secure
    For the punishment I endure

    (oha oha oha)
    We stand trial, the karma hurts, it makes us pay
    We stand trial
    Forever wrong, my guilt goes on
    We stand trial (we stand trial)
    The karma hurts (the karma hurrrrts!)
    we’ll pay and pay
    ohhh We stand trial
    (forever)
    Forever wrong, our guilt goes on

    Why don’t we blow? Why don’t we blow?
    We’re in denial!
    (OHHHH YES!)
    Why don’t we blow? Why don’t we blow?
    We’re in denial!

    We stand trial
    No getting out, we do our time
    We stand trial
    The jail’s too strong, I’ll live too long!
    We stand trial
    (we stand trialllll)
    I’m throwing up (throwing up)
    my karma’s bad (it hurts so bad)
    We stand trial
    (Karmaaaa) That Karma bitch, she makes me pay!
    We stand trial!

    Why did they blow? Why did they blow?
    They stood tall
    (OHHHH YES!)
    Why don’t we blow? Why don’t we blow?
    We’re in denial!

    (Woah Woah WOAH!)
    You’ll stand trial
    (You’ll stand triallll!)
    It never stops (it never stops)
    it makes you pay! (and pay and pay and pay)
    You stand trial
    (It never) guilt never stops
    (your guilt lives on!)

    Why can’t you blow? Why won’t you blow? (and blow and blow and blow)
    You are in denial!
    (I know it)
    (you’ll find a way)
    Come out and blow! (come out!) Come out and blow!
    Don’t stay to take the fall!
    (oh yea! oh yea!)
    (Everybody!)

    Come out and blow! (come out!) Come out and blow!
    You can make that call!
    (I know it)
    (you’ll find a way!)
    Come out and blow! (come out!) Come out and blow!
    You’ll be standing tall!
    (good good good)

    YOU’LL STAND TALL!
    Out HERE!

    • Mark

      I thought your original version was just fine. Though thank God you’ve left out the “la-lolly-la’s” in both.

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        This one might be better for a protest rally or viral video or something. You pays you money an takes you choice.

      • Captain Howdy

        The “la-lolly-la’s” are my favorite part N/K

        • Mark

          Masochist!

    • EnthralledObserver

      Oh dear Xenu… someone record it… I begs thee!

    • Casabeca

      Love! True love!

    • ThetaBara

      Ermagerd! Awesome!!! Especially love the BLOW! theme!

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        Thanks.

  • Collin

    True story , it almost reads like a joke, but its not, because its too sad….. The other day a very stressed out sea org worker comes into my job and has 3 pillows in her hand , she says to me “If these dont work can i bring them back?” so i try to ring them up and the credit card is DENIED, which iam am not supurised for one bit, i ask her is she is in the sea org? , which i already know she is , she answers yes , sort of supurised by my question, then she ask me if iam a scientologist, i reply no. I then tell her that i heard that sea org members work long hard hours without any pay and not much time off….she gets quiet…real quiet, i ask her if its true and she doesnt answer, my real question is i wonder who those pillows are for?

    • Missionary Kid

      Hopefully, your question will lead her to eventually blow.

      The poor woman.

      • Collin

        yeah i just wanted her to know that the average wog like myself knows of her plight…

        • WhereIsSHE

          Her “plight” being.. in your scenario… a bunch of pillows that “don’t work”.

          *eyeroll*

          • Mark

            Her plight being that she was dog-tired, like all other SO slaves, I should think.

            • Missionary Kid

              And probably paying for the pillows used at the Ft Harrison.

            • WhereIsSHE

              Read the version provided again, and tell me –for real– if you think this is true- or troll.

            • Missionary Kid

              Damn. Didn’t follow my own rules. I guess troll. I’ll wait.

              Are there any non-$cion businesses close by? Who would dare even post this, risking $cion wrath? A shop that sells pillows would mean a specific type of store, that managed to survive, close to the Ft. Harrison.

              I’ll wait to see how this person develops.

            • ThetaBara

              Damn… I log off to go hang out with friends and this place falls apart!

              They have pillows at freakin’ ROSS, people. Everyone have a Xenutini and chill the hell out!

            • Missionary Kid

              Yes’m. It’s a good story, anyway.

            • q-bird

              eeny, meanie, minee, moe – who’s a troll, nobody knows.
              WIS – your b.s. detector is in good working order.
              sincerely, q-bird

            • Mark

              Yup, that typically Shortarse touch of extra sadism…

            • WhereIsSHE

              Sadistic interior designer???!!!!

              Jeff Lewis has it all covered.

              http://www.bravotv.com/people/jeff-lewis

            • Mark

              Groo. I take it you’ve not seen Laurence Llewellyn Bowen, the original British makeover TV home wrecker (and would-be Regency dandy) then? http://www.thefreelibrary.com/CHANGING+ROOMS+WRECKED+OUR+LIVES%3B+WE%27VE+BEEN+BOWEN-ED!+THREE+VICTIMS…-a0121435788

            • Collin

              Interior designers are a bit loony too, and pretty pushy and demanding, another wonderful group i deal with.

            • grundoon

              Not the FH. The Ybor City org.

            • WhereIsSHE

              ASSUMING (as you clearly are) that this is a TRUTHFUL ACCOUNT.

              You have a brilliant mind, Mark, so don’t get me wrong here.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I’m going to suggest that it doesn’t really matter if it is ‘truthful’ or not… because it supports what we know about poor SO slaves. If this person’s testimony suggested that SO slaves had it good, then calling out the lie would be more important.

            • Collin

              Not a lie just an observation, im not the best typer when it comes to telling a story, i should have given more details, the point is that she looked tired , exhausted and typically fed up, she had to drive across a long ass bridge to pick up three pillows, im sure she was at her wits end, because she had that look on her face, plus being dressed in her uniform didnt help her cause.

            • EnthralledObserver

              It’s okay, Collin… I only found the fact she’d want to return ‘pillows’ unusual, but you’ve clarified they were more like cushions which makes more sense to me… I find your story perfectly legit… I have no further reason, or care, to disbelieve you.

            • Collin

              The running joke at my job is you can return anything there, and yes we have seen it all pillows and bedding as well…

            • EnthralledObserver

              I can imagine… the gall of people sometimes.

            • Mark

              Me too.

            • WhereIsSHE

              Most people look tired and fed up at the end of a hard day of work when they have to run a stupid errand.
              If people here are so willing to be led into this.. so be it.

            • NeverIn

              This is such a strange thread.

            • WhereIsSHE

              I really appreciate many of your posts here, EO.

              But please, please do not ever confuse an anonymous blog post with “testimony” which actually carries legal meaning here in the U.S.

              And seriously…
              You haven’t read enough about the REAL ABUSES Sea Org members suffer???
              You are now unable to have a critical eye?

            • EnthralledObserver

              Thanks, WhereIsSHE…
              Don’t worry, I’m not confusing anything. This person wanted to share a story, and like you I questioned the details because they didn’t make sense at first, but now I’m satisfied enough that I just misunderstood what they’d meant, and can see that it might not have been a complete fabrication. It’s interesting… but don’t mistake that interest and acceptance for me now relying on the details of this person’s story as me knowing it is fact. It might have happened, and I have no reason to need to know for sure anyway. It was just an anecdote.

            • Mark

              I think it’s only reasonable (and courteous) to take people’s stories here at face-value unless/until proved otherwise by genuinely trollish behaviour. I’ve re-read Collin’s original post, and his subsequent clarifications, and they seem consistent with a truthful account. He’s not being abusive, trying to slip in pro-Co$ propaganda, or shifting his ground (like a certain irritating Greek called Theo!)
              Collin’s very patience with your intemperate comments would add strength to his statement that he’s a sales-assistant.
              What’s your problem?

          • Collin

            well im sure if the pilows didnt work , she would probably get screamed at , ie- THESE PILLOWS DONT MATCH THE COUCH!!!

            • WhereIsSHE

              OK.
              Now you are off the charts entirely.

            • Collin

              HA i see angry wives yell at their husbands everyday for this high crime! or i just hear, “my husband bought these pillows he is an idiot, they dont match anything in our living room” imagine the micro managing at Ft. Harrasion.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Are you talking about ‘pillows’ or ‘cushions’?

            • Collin

              These were actually pillows , they are more like throw pillows….

            • EnthralledObserver

              Okay, so their purpose is decorative… that makes a whole lot of difference in your tale.

            • WhereIsSHE

              HOW?!

            • EnthralledObserver

              Because if they are for ‘decorative purposes’ then the colour/shape/size might not ‘work’, and that is a product you could bring back, as opposed to a ‘pillow’ you would have to sleep on (making it unhygienic and non-returnable) to know if it ‘works’ for someone or not.

            • WhereIsSHE

              cognitive dissonance hard at work

            • EnthralledObserver

              Why does it matter to you? I don’t understand your vehemence about calling this person’s story out as a lie?

            • Collin

              thank you EO

            • WhereIsSHE

              Please tell us the name of your “business” so we can alert the ANGRY WIVES to just send their (totally wonderful) husbands in to make the “right” decisions in the first place!
              PLEASE! Save yourself from the horrible “ANGRY WIVES”!!!!!!!!!

            • Collin

              Im not making them angry , i just get the brunt of it , they like to tell me about the poor decisions their husbands make, im just the cashier. Its a home store…thats all i can say in the tampa bay area

            • WhereIsSHE

              YOU called them “ANGRY”, not me.

              You are just a cashier…. of some unnamed store ….in the TAMPA BAY AREA.

              Do you know where CLEARWATER, FLORIDA is in relation to TAMBA BAY???

            • Collin

              of course i do-ive lived here 20 years. dont know why you are truly being so nasty towards me…Tampa bay are means clearwater st pete and tampa, just so you know.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Omg! You’re Nancy Grace!

            • WhereIsSHE

              OMFUCKINGGOD!!!

              I am far more ADORABLE and ATHLETIC and RATIONAL, Darlin!!!!
              PLUS, unlike that horrible example of a lawyer… I do not LIE IN COURT or HIDE EVIDENCE in order to WIN a case.

              She is a total fucking DIS-GRACE, IMO.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. Just kidding.. I was waiting for your reaction.. I gotta tell you WIS, I am sooooo glad you’re on our team.. I would lovvvvvvve to see you questioning DM In court one day..

            • WhereIsSHE

              It would be a dream come true. (But I would have to have an entire warchest of help on my hands in order to get it all in appopriate order– from the fact experts, such as Tony, Jon Atack, Claire Headley, etc, etc, etc …oh.. Brousseau… and CHUCK B!…and…. too many to list…
              And then, spf?? I would require YOU and BTN and OBS and GLIBBY and THDNE… and CAP’N HOWDY and SUBGENIUS and fucking too many smart-ass people here to list.
              But yeah…
              after I got through with all of OUR OWN ARGUMENTS about which line of questioning should even be the BEGINNING of the cross.. and after all of our arguments about WHICH AREAS of question should be addressed FIRST.. (and after we went through how the Rules of Evidence precluded this–or that–)…

              It would be an EPIC cross;)

            • sugarplumfairy

              I’ll carry your briefcase and make sure you stay hydrated..

            • WhereIsSHE

              Please tear off my fake eyelashes and shake my helmet hair out if I ever show the fuck up like Nancy Grace!!!!!!!=(!!
              ANd rip whatever horrible SUPER SHINY BLOUSE I have on OFF of my poor skin, and break whatever huge, cheap, clunk of junk I am sporting as a necklace off of my throat… and…
              FUCK, Sugar.
              JUST KILL ME.
              Make sure I don’t say “Goodnight, Friend” at the end either. (There are ways.)

            • sugarplumfairy

              lol.. See? You’re sense of humor is perfect!

            • WhereIsSHE

              But now that I just re-read my post where you replied that I am Nancy Grace… I am laughing so hard!!!!!!!!!!!! UGH!!! I’m fucking NANCY GRACE in that post=(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. Yah.. It was the eye roll..

              She really is obnoxious.. You are NOTHING like Nancy Grace..

            • aquaclara

              I would truly love to see this! It would be the ultimate Bunker moment, when all the exes, never-ins and journalists, writers, videographers, lurkers and Anons join forces for a record event.

            • WhereIsSHE

              But it would definitely have been a shitload more entertaining if I had just posted one of her stupidass sayings=(!

              FUCK… ME=(!
              I need to get a better sense of fucking humor!

            • sugarplumfairy

              You are DEFINITELY far more adorable.. And I bet you dance better too!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Your sense of humor is frking perfect..

        • Mooser

          “yeah i just wanted her to know that the average wog like myself knows of her plight…”

          A commendable, and given their penchant for revenge, brave thing to do. Yup, the poor thing was looking for some cash.

    • WhereIsSHE

      How does a pillow not work?

      • sugarplumfairy

        Could they need them for the big weekend and have to pay for them themselves? On $50 a week?

        • WhereIsSHE

          Collin said it was “possibly for the org”.
          ORG.

          As IF anyone cares whether or not the fucking throw pillows in the TAMPA ORG fucking match.

          GIVE ME A BREAK.

          • WhereIsSHE

            ARE there “throw” pillows in the TAMPA ORG???
            (IS there an active and thriving Tampa Bay Org??????????)

            • Collin

              I wouldnt say thriving, i would say empty, not sure about said pillows, never tried to go into one of their buildings, ill be across the street in a minute from the ybor city ORG having a beer ill let you know just how much traffic i see going in and out, have a great night all!!

            • Mark

              Enjoy your drink.

            • WhereIsSHE

              EXACTLY.
              EMPTY.
              So why the fuck would a sea org low-life be terrified in your “store” about pillows “not working” and then be calling her supervisors to demand more money (YOUR DETAILS, which make NO SENSE when you know anything about how the sea org “slaves” adress their superiors), and…
              OH, NEVER MIND.

              Go get kind-hearted folks like SPF and Mark to bite.
              I am swimmmmmmmming far away.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. Only you think I’m kindhearted.. Flunk thinks I’m the Antichrist.. Everything is relative..

              Don’t swim too far away.. We love your incredulous butt..

            • WhereIsSHE

              I wuv your sugarplum-everything (from fairy to whatever the heck exists on the other end of that spectrum;)

              don’t you worry, sugar-
              we are going to have an SP party in Philly sometime soon=)
              (where the heck is TNMTC???)

            • sugarplumfairy

              she’s in love.. But she’ll come up for air long enough for an SP party..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Well, if it counts, the Bunker Southern SP Society Intl thinks you are one Super Powered Fairy…and in fact just toasted you about an hour ago, after late dinner and listening to former guitarist for Dr. Hook in the restaraunt/bar owned by former bassist of Hootie and the Blow Fish. You were missed tonight. Oh and can’t wait for pics, because we had our own tent.hahahahah!

            • Sherbet

              How’s the pah-ty going? I’m there in spirit!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Sherb! We were talkin’ about all. I’m hitting the bed early tonight, but had to check in. We’re all having a scrumptious time. Whingey Bingey is a hoot and a half. Belly hurts from laughing so damn much. You don’t need a special invitation you know!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Sweet dreams..

            • sugarplumfairy

              Cool! I’m am honored.. Look forward to tent pics..

            • Robert Eckert

              What it sounds like to me is: they are buying throw pillows for this Org, because the Demented Dwarf demands them, but they are hoping that if they save the receipts they will be able to bring the pillows back and get cash in their pockets, since they haven’t been paid in months.

          • Sunny Sands

            CoS bought an historic cigar factory building in Ybor City in 2010 for $7 million and spent $6 million renovating it. They received a lot of criticism for scooping up a city landmark. I think they would be picky about their throw pillows. They also promote taking classes at Ybor on Craig’s List. There have also been other stories about sea org paying for org supplies out of their own paltry salaries.

          • Jon Hendry

            Could be decorating for a temporary influx of people, with the intention to return the pillows (used) after the event is over.

      • Collin

        She was in her sea org uniform, im guessing that the pillow she was buying was for someone else, possibly for the org, trust me i see alot of pillows that just dont work, meaning they are the highest returned item in my store…she kept calling her superior telling them to transfer money into the account….

        • WhereIsSHE

          so this poor little sea org slave –in YOUR WORDS– “kept calling her superior TELLING THEM TO TRANSFER MONEY INTO THE ACCOUNT”…

          which would NEVER HAPPEN

          and yet.. some of the people who comment here frequently enough to know better.. just go right along with this ridiculous tale

          I think it’s time for me to take another long look at participating here.

          • Collin

            You truly sound a bit paranoid, you should take it down a notch, i have said nothing nasty to you so, im not quite sure why you are reacting the way you are. Im not some osa asshole or a troll, just thought id share a story that happened to me this week.I enjoy coming here and reading the comments as much as anyone else

            • WhereIsSHE

              Not paranoid.
              Just accustomed to cross-examining people on their bullshit.

            • Collin

              Now you are starting to sound like my dad, he was a state attorney, but im sure you dont believe that either . anyway —

            • WhereIsSHE

              Well tell me who your dad is. If he was a state attorney (I am guessing you mean he was a member of the SAO), he has a public record.

              EDIT: And if your father was a prosecutor for the SAO, then I accept your compliment.

            • grundoon

              As you might be aware, many people who post here don’t want to disclose their name, location, workplace, etc., for lots of reasons. You’re asking Collin to out himself? Cross-examination here isn’t billable.

            • Mooser

              I myself, although I would be loath to return such a personal item, have lots of pillows around that “don’t work”. Some of them are a mockery of a sham of a bed-pillow. A good pillow ain’t cheap, unfortunately.

            • WhereIsSHE

              If your story made sense, I would have accepted it.
              It just rings a false note, and especially the more detail you added after I questioned it.

              People here are truly concerned about other people who are trapped inside a dangerous cult.

          • sugarplumfairy

            If you leave, they win..

            And People aren’t necessarily ‘going along’ with anything.. They’re listening and learning.. and reserving judgment until you finish your closing arguments..

  • media_lush

    The internet just keeps throwing up these little gems:

    “Hubbard put a band together from among the ranks of the Sea Org … The Apollo All-Stars released one album, “The Power of Source,”….

    http://www.postindependent.com/news/grandjunction/7996261-113/hubbard-music-scientology-ron

    • Mark

      Musical masochists can download it from here as an mp3 – there’s a lot of other obscure, but far more interesting and worthwhile music on the site: http://digitalmeltd0wn.blogspot.co.uk/search?cx=018208992014731373507:-41e_it2ikw&q=hubbard&sa=GO

      • Bella Legosi

        “Musical masochists ” lol good one! So very true! I think hearing JT’s “Evil Purpose” was enough for me. I think chewing on tin foil (with fillings) while scratching nails on a chalkboard is more fun than $cientology propaganda music! IMO of course!

        • noseinabk

          Did you mean Easy Evil by Travolta?
          *hanging head*
          I loved that song when I was a kid.

          • Bella Legosi

            *shudders*
            Why? lol Talk about re stimulating an engram!

    • media_lush

      downvote, lulz…..

      anyway, found this in the bowels of my computer….

      “Captain Bill Robertson performing the unofficial anthem of the Church of Scientology”

      http://youtu.be/A5qOxlC61Xo

    • grundoon

      Try the El Queso All-Stars.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADzkPOR4fSk

    • Mooser

      Hubbard put a band together from among the ranks of the Sea Org .”

      A Chick Corea and Isaac Hayes mash-up?

  • Bella Legosi

    Hey guys! Been very VERY busy lately! Got 3 teeth removed (one turned into dry socket F**KING OWIE), finally moved, and am officially now on overtime at work as of my PM shift tonight and have still 2 work days to go! But, I am still out there as a agent of SMERSH spreading the news about the vile cult that is Co$!

    I was reading about JD Salinger today on wiki and came across the info that JD got into Dianetics and actually met L Ron BUT very quickly wised up and dropped it and picked up Christian Science! ARRRRRGGGGG I really had a Clockwork Orange moment when I saw that! WHY???? *shakes fists*

    I haven’t been the agent provocateur on the net lately, nor in my real life! I am hopeing that now that I am healing and have moved my schedule will calm the hell down and I can get back to my routine of daliy J&D on this wonderful blog! However, I have found a Supernatural blog that had me dorking off completely for the last 3 hours! YAY I have found others like me who love this silly damn show as much as I! 🙂 But, IMHO Tony will always be blog #1 for me! I recommend it a lot!

    Well, back to the daily grind kids! My internet gets turned on this Tuesday, so I may still be AWOL, but NEVER MIA!

    Muah! i miss you fellow agents of SMERSH and can’t wait to return!

    • aquaclara

      Come back soon, Bella!

  • Jo

    This blog, sometimes, when I read it, brings up memories that I hoped I would forget. Religion should give you peace and comfort? Hey, We should just let’s try to get along. Ive been optimistic lately. Night folks x

  • TonyOrtega

    Making up for last week’s pre-emption by hard news (Miscavige’s declaration) with a double-dose of Sunday Funnies in the morning. It’s chock full o’ nuts!

    • Espiando

      So, like most morning activities, it involves coffee?

    • Mark

      I’m all agog! (Well, half-agog; it’s very late here in London).

    • California

      Tony, here on the west coast we are still reflecting on the Monique Rathbun suit with the response by DM’s declaration …. what a way to end the week……

      Get some well-earned rest.

      We will all enjoy the Sunday funnies tomorrow.

      • ThetaBara

        I know! This stuff gets posted at 4am our time and we have to scramble to catch up!

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      Isn’t it always though? 😉

    • DANCESWITHPROLES

      HYPOMANIA. You do an expose on this and you’ve got a way to separate scilons/exscilons personal “wins” from the cult. Biggest hurdle besides family and friends being Scientologists is majority are not able to see the “wins” they had in the cult were adoptions of hypomanic traits that Hubbard instilled in the tech. Read The Hypomanic Edge by John D. Gartner. Enjoy 🙂

  • Lady Squash

    Wikipedia has a good article on Abreaction and why the military gave it up. It is shockingly similar to Dianetics and LRH certainly knew about it when he was in Oak Knoll Naval Hospital. Yes, he even stole Dianetics and called it his own. He apparently knew no shame.

  • Jenny Blow

    Abreactive Dianetics was the original title of Dianetics: The Original Thesis

  • DANCESWITHPROLES

    I am an ex-scientologist, and after reading moonshot’s responses it reminds me of how I used to be after I left the cult. Basically, trying to free myself from a lunatics worldview, which isn’t easy! There are many things that are good because as a scientologist you’re filling in info, making the concepts work for you, trying something different in your life that is for many people the first time they really took themselves seriously.

    What I wanted to share is what I have found to be Hubbard’s problem. He was hypomanic one. And two he was disturbed. If you read a book called The Hypomanic Edge by John D. Gartner, Psychologist at Johns Hopkins, you’ll see that the benefits of Scientology were really just adopting hypomanic traits. Don’t feel terrible though, Carnegie, Columbus, Napoleon, majority of CEO’s in the world, have hypomania. The problem is when it is not tempered correctly you can get batshit products/results.

    Scientology is a prime example. LRH used a lot of drugs, had many problems, and had the “fire” known as hypomania. Do yourself a favor and read this book, it’ll save you a lot of heartache and a lot of bullshit searching. Wikipedia research isn’t the same as this book just letting you know. I “knew” about hypomania for 2 years before reading an expose from a respected psychologist.

    • DANCESWITHPROLES

      Also want to add… what is good about Scientology, is learning that the majority of what you studied is 100% bullshit. That gave me a freedom and forced me to learn new things to repair myself. That wasn’t Hubbard’s intention when he created this cult. If you all focus on WHY Scientology is wrong by attacking the tech itself, you have this beat. No one cares about the drama this cult creates other than a few interested people, most of society knows its a cult… if you want this over, you have to go after the tech. You do that by educating yourself, comparing them to the experiences, and speaking out.

      • Mooser

        life that is for many people the first time they really took themselves seriously.”

        That was, as any sensible person knows, a big mistake. Never, ever take yourself seriously, you are lost if you do. For instance, I think of myself as one big knock-knock joke:

        “Knock-knock”
        “Who’s there?”
        “Orange!”
        “Orange who?”
        “Orange you glad I don’t take myself too seriously?”

        See what I mean? Works every time. Lettuce leave now, I say crisply.

        • Mooser

          “He was hypomanic one.”

          That’s nothing. My wife is a hypodispsomaniac.

  • Verve

    Clue #1 you chock full of BS- making up essentially an entire new language. Enturbulation, my behind.

    • Mooser

      What are you talking about? My enturbocharger gives me 50% more horsepower and better fuel economy.

      • Verve

        My coffee thanks you from across the room. Dang that was a good laugh.

  • DamOTclese2

    “It wasn’t in my two-volume Oxford dictionary.”

    ROFL!!! Ya think?!

  • Alan Desmond

    Are you looking for funds to finance your large or small business,we’ll help you get the large amount of money you desire for your business,we offer first class business and commercial services to enable small scale business attain success in obtaining start up or refinance their business Bad credit rating accepted and poor business performance are accepted.apply today via email:(arabfinancialcorporation@yahoo.com.sg)

  • Smater Fater

    we lease out Mortgages to those in financial stress and also for business expansion. contact us today, and get approval We offer all kinds of Mortgages Loans such as Personal Loans,Business Loan,Bad Credit Loan,Home Loan,Auto Loan contact us on: musaddiqloanlending@gmail.com

    Personal Loans
    Business Loan
    Bad Credit Loan
    Home Loan