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Jefferson Hawkins Explains the Ethics of Scientology’s “Suppressive Person”

Have you ever seen an SP, Tom?

Have you ever seen an SP, Tom?

Jefferson Hawkins was once the top marketing executive for the Church of Scientology and helped it reach its greatest extent with the famous “volcano” TV ads in the 1980s. He’s told his tale of getting into and out of the church with his excellent books Counterfeit Dreams and Leaving Scientology, and he’s helping us understand the upside-down world of Scientology “ethics.”

Where are you taking us next, Jeff?

JEFFERSON: This week, we’re taking up Chapter 7 of the Ethics book, “The Basics of Suppression.” We’ll actually split this chapter into two articles, one on Suppressive Persons, and another, next week, on Potential Trouble Sources. Both concepts are so integral to the Scientology control system that they each deserve their own analysis. So this week, we’ll take up Suppressives.

THE BUNKER: A timely subject, considering we reported on Monday that the Church has declared Leah Remini Suppressive.

JEFFERSON: It’s axiomatic that if you want to control people, you have to give them an enemy. And if you don’t have an enemy, you have to invent one. In Hitler Speaks, former Nazi Hermann Rauschning says,

When Hitler was asked whether he thought the Jew must be destroyed, he answered: “No…we should have then to invent him. It is essential to have a tangible enemy, not merely an abstract enemy.

You can always rouse people by creating an enemy for them to hate and fear. In his book The True Believer, Eric Hoffer notes that

Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in God, but never without belief in a Devil.

THE BUNKER: So how does Hubbard present his case for the existence of the SP?

JEFFERSON: It’s interesting that the first section of this chapter, after some basic definitions, is an essay called “Two Types of People,” which is an unapologetic argument in favor of “black and white thinking.” Hubbard states that there are only two types of people, good people and bad people. He adds:

And there are no other types. Actually there aren’t even shades of gray.

In his book Overcoming Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan says,

Even the most complex cult doctrines ultimately reduce reality into two basic poles: black versus white; good versus evil; spiritual world versus physical world; us versus them.

One of the hallmarks of a cult (or any fanatical, extremist group for that matter) is black and white thinking. Things are either black or they are white. They are good or they are evil. There are no shades of gray, no nuances. And that is what Hubbard is saying here. People are either good or bad, period. There are no shades of gray.

THE BUNKER: But hang on a second. Wasn’t he saying just the opposite a few chapters ago?

JEFFERSON: See, that’s what happens when you pay attention! Yes, exactly. When he was arguing his case for utilitarian ethics, he talked about a “gradient scale” of right and wrong. He insisted in that essay:

Terms like good and bad, alive and dead, right and wrong, are used only in conjunction with gradient scales.

When you’re making the case for utilitarian ethics, it’s important to not have black-and-white concepts of good and bad. You have to have a lot of wiggle-room. But if you’re trying to establish a villainous enemy, you’ve got to have strict black-and-white thinking. The villain you create can’t have any nuances. He can’t have shades of gray. The enemy has to be positioned as totally, irredeemably evil. Whole track evil.

THE BUNKER: So how do we identify an SP?

JEFFERSON: The next section of the chapter is entitled, tellingly, “The Anti-Social Personality, the Anti-Scientologist.” It is obvious right from the start that these things are equated in Hubbard’s mind: If you are anti-Scientology, then, by definition, you are one of the “bad people,” a Suppressive Person. Hubbard then proceeds to give his 12 attributes of an “Anti-Social Personality.” These are, briefly:

1. He or she speaks only in very broad generalities…

2. Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks…

3. The antisocial personality alters, to worsen, communication when he or she relays a message or news…

4. …an antisocial personality…does not respond to treatment or reform or psychotherapy…

5. Surrounding such a personality, we find cowed or ill associates…

6. The antisocial personality habitually selects the wrong target…

7. The antisocial cannot finish a cycle of action…

8. Many antisocial persons will freely confess to the most alarming crimes, when forced to do so, but will have no faintest sense of responsibility for them…

9. The antisocial personality supports only destructive groups and rages against and attacks any constructive or betterment group…

10. This type of personality approves only of destructive actions and fights against constructive or helpful actions or activities…

11. Helping others is an activity which drives the antisocial personality nearly berserk…

12. The antisocial personality has a bad sense of property and conceives that the idea that anyone owns anything is a pretense, made up to fool people.

THE BUNKER: So this is how Scientology decides who is labeled a Suppressive?

JEFFERSON: Organizationally, no. The list is most often used in the context of a “PTS interview,” where the Scientologist is trying to figure out if their mother or father or boss is an SP, and if they should disconnect from them. But organizationally, no. In my 37 years in Scientology, I never saw anyone declared an SP by the Church because someone analyzed their behavior against this list and found that they conformed to most or all of these attributes. I never saw that happen. Scientologists — and even some Indies — like to insist that this list is simply a useful diagnostic tool to identify people with ASPD (anti-social personality disorder), or that SP is just another name for sociopath or psychopath. Actually, if you look up the criteria for determining someone with anti-social personality disorder, the list is nothing like Hubbard’s — with the possible exception of “lack of remorse.”

If this list were really supposed to be used to find and label SPs, you would think that it’s use would be enshrined in Scientology’s “justice procedures.” You would think that an Ethics Officer would be required by policy to run the person through a checklist of these attributes before they are declared SP. In fact, it is never used that way.

THE BUNKER: So how do they actually determine if someone is an SP?

JEFFERSON: I have only seen one criterion applied, and that is if the person has criticized or attacked Scientology, Hubbard or Miscavige. If they are “anti-Scientology” then they are SP. Period. And anyone who leaves the Int Base is declared SP. Regardless of how they score on this list.

This, by the way, answers the question “How was Miscavige able to take over the Church of Scientology when Scientologists are supposed to be able to spot Suppressives?” Miscavige is a sociopath, not a Suppressive. To spot a sociopath you’d have to use the established characteristics associated with sociopathy, which are not the same as Hubbard’s list. Miscavige does not speak out against Scientology or Hubbard, therefore he’s “not an SP.”

THE BUNKER: So why issue this list of 12 attributes at all?

JEFFERSON: In my opinion, Hubbard was trying to establish a patina of scholarliness to this announcement, to position it as a “technical breakthrough.” In the mid-1960s he had a series of high-level defections and splinter groups. I think that he understood that he needed to somehow isolate and vilify those who were challenging him or speaking out against him. He needed to make sure that Scientologists would see these people as “evil” and therefore shun them and refuse to listen to them. At the same time, he didn’t want to get into a petty name-calling scuffle with these people. Positioning it as a “new technical breakthrough” and convincing Scientologists that these people had a clinical, pathological condition which made them evil — rooted, of course, in whole-track implants — was a stroke of genius. Now there was a technical reason to hate and avoid them.

THE BUNKER: In points 9, 10, and 11 above, Hubbard warns us that an SP “rages against and attacks any constructive or betterment group,” and “approves only of destructive actions and fights against constructive or helpful actions or activities.” What betterment groups do you think he is referring to here?

JEFFERSON: In fact, “betterment group” is code for “Scientology.” This becomes obvious if you try to figure out what other “betterment groups” Hubbard could possibly be referring to here. Therapists? No, couldn’t be that, since Hubbard himself raged against them. Church groups? No, couldn’t be them, since Hubbard himself often raged against Christianity. The medical profession? No, couldn’t be that as Hubbard raged against doctors. Self-help groups like EST, AA, group therapy? Nope.

The fact is, no one has ever been declared SP because they attacked the Boy Scouts or AA or any other “betterment group.” Never. They have only been declared SP because they attacked or criticized Scientology. So the true intent of points 9, 10 and 11 is pretty transparent. When Hubbard says “betterment group,” he means Scientology and only Scientology. And that is really the core of this SP “technology.”

THE BUNKER: We notice that Hubbard also notes, in point 4, that an SP “does not respond to treatment or reform or psychotherapy.” This is a really, really odd statement coming from Hubbard.

JEFFERSON: Yes, he’s been telling Scientologists for years that psychotherapy doesn’t work and doesn’t get any results. But here he is stating, in essence, “if you don’t get results from psychotherapy, that is an indicator that you may be an SP.” Again, this only becomes understandable when you realize that “treatment or reform or psychotherapy” is code for “Scientology.” He is saying “if you don’t get results from Scientology, you may be an SP.” And this is exactly how it is interpreted, as will become more and more obvious as we go through the section on PTS.

This also opens the door to what could be called the “Emperor’s New Clothes” argument: “Everyone gets results from Scientology except an SP. You didn’t get results? You must be an SP!”

THE BUNKER: There is also a list of attributes for “the social personality.”

JEFFERSON: Yes, these are the 12 attributes of an SP, reversed. And again, these may be used individually by Scientologists in the context of a PTS interview, but they are not used organizationally to clear someone of the accusation that they are an SP. Factually, if a Scientologist actually used this list to inspect the lives of, say, Leah Remini or Jason Beghe or Paul Haggis, they would have to come to the conclusion that these people could not possibly be “SP.” But this inspection does not happen.

I’ll leave you with one last bit of irony. One of the attributes of an SP that Hubbard lists is “He or she speaks only in very broad generalities.” A social personality, he tells us, “is specific in relating circumstances.” It’s interesting that the whistleblowers who are exposing Scientology’s secrets and crimes are very specific, relating specific incidents — actual time, place and event. In rebuttal, Scientology always speaks in broad generalities — “they are all lying.” “They are bitter defrocked apostates” and so on. So, according to Hubbard’s rules, who’s the SP?

 
——————–

Trouble in Philadephia

We heard this week from Jason Nark at Philly.com, who wondered if we remembered him. Of course we remembered his excellent portrayal of David Miscavige, which delved into the Scientology leader’s beginnings in South Philly. We’ve cited it numerous times here at the blog since Nark first published it.

He contacted us for his latest story, this one reporting on the city of Philadelphia fighting Scientology over its empty “Ideal Org” building, which has been awaiting renovations for years. Nark wanted some background on the Ideal Org program, and we sent him a lengthy reply. He was good enough to pull out a short quote for his story.

We thought we’d go ahead and publish the rest of what we sent him, since it was the first time we’ve tried to put down an overview like this of Miscavige’s obsession…

The Ideal Org program is a mess because it was always just a PR scheme.

It began in 2003, right when Tom Cruise was being brought back into the fold by Marty Rathbun on orders from Miscavige.

Cruise had been out of the church for years (but that fact was successfully hidden until only a couple of years ago), and recovering him was a major church project.

At some point, Mike Rinder tells me, Cruise complained about one of the “orgs,” saying that it was too shabby to take one of his celebrity friends. Rinder says that at the time, 2002/2003, there were three orgs that needed replacing anyway.

In Buffalo, they were losing an org to eminent domain, but had sued and won a large amount of money to purchase a new one. In Tampa, the org was in a strip mall and was in bad shape. And in Joburg, the org was in such a bad neighborhood, a church member had actually been killed in a random act of violence.

So those three became the first wave of what Miscavige began to call “Ideal” orgs. Not only did that entail finding lavish buildings (the more historic, the better), but also putting in a whole array of audiovisual displays for pulling in new public.

Rinder and I have talked about how this reflected that Miscavige increasingly was losing trust in Scientology’s old methods of attracting new members. Back in the day, they were pretty successful with human interaction. But now, Miscavige wanted machines to do the work — large flat screens running Scientology films on a loop in a museum-like setting.

Since those three original Ideal Orgs opened in 2003, Miscavige has been on a huge push to get them opened in other cities around the world. For the most part, the method has been the same.

Even if there’s an adequate org already in existence, the locals are put under intense pressure to raise millions of dollars to purchase a historic building for a new Ideal Org. After the property is secured, there’s then another round of fundraising to raise millions more for renovations.

But this is going on at the same time that Scientology is gripped by several crises, and its membership is dwindling. So you get situations like in Chicago or Philadelphia, where the money was raised to buy a great building, but then it sits, rotting, while the funds needed for renovation are getting harder and harder to get out of exhausted church members.

There’s a new story this week out of New Zealand which is very interesting. There are only a couple of hundred Scientologists in all of New Zealand, so there’s no way that Scientology is going to be able to raise millions from them to renovate an old building. So they’ve announced that CSI (Church of Scientology International) is going to spend $16 million to renovate what is going to be their Ideal Org.

I think this is yet another huge and probably unwise gamble by Miscavige. With church members around the world exhausted by fundraising, why would they want to give thousands for a local Ideal Org when CSI is just paying to open one in New Zealand? And why spend so much money in a place with almost no Scientologists? It’s bizarre.

Anyway, there’s no evidence at all that the Ideal Orgs are bringing in any new public to stare at the fancy displays. In fact, we get lots of reports that they are virtually empty.

So why has Miscavige pressed so hard to open so many of them? Again, it’s just PR. Every single time Karin Pouw puts out a statement, she will always point out that Scientology has opened new churches in 37 cities around the world (or whatever), and some naive news organizations cite that as proof that Scientology is expanding.

It’s not. It’s shrinking, and fast. It’s probably down to only about 25,000 people worldwide at this point. And more are leaving every day.

 
——————–

LINKS OF NOTE

Skip Press has a very interesting piece at The Morton Report about African-Americans in Scientology.

RadarOnline describes Tom Cruise’s lousy day in court, and the Daily Mail reports that Tom denies starting up a romance with fellow Scientologist Laura Prepon.

 

Happy Thanksgiving, Bunkerites!

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on November 28, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

 

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  • KJP in Portland

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all my American Bunkeroos and Bunkerettes! (((hugs))), (((hi-5’s)))

    • Peter

      And a very HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you in damp, cold Portland. May your turkey be hot!

      • Robert Eckert

        Ironically, my sister in Portland says it is a rare sunny day there.

        • Peter

          Yeah, I’d checked the weather prior to posting. But rare it is, much like Seattle. Both great cities, though.

  • SciWatcher

    Happy Thanksgiving Tony O all fellow Bunkerites!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Tom Cruise – “Have you ever seen an SP?”

    Larry Anderson (Orientation film star, no longer a scientologist):

  • Krew13

    Watch Tom use LRH tech to confront and shatter suppression!

    No, wait, that would be watch him ignore an SP and run a mile.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3IM2IG9-No

  • Miss Tia

    Morning y’all and Happy Thanksgiving!!!! That was an interesting and insightful read with Jefferson!!! and I didn’t know anything about the Buffalo org eminent domain and CO$ suing and getting money—I gotta go look that up now!! And read the article on the Morton Report after the let the doggies out!

    Did some tweeting! 🙂

    Dodo had posted Kirstie’s tweet that she was appearing on Stern next week….

    When @kirstiealley appears next week @HowardStern here’s a few Q ideas, given in all humbleness to the king of all media: How’s @LeahRemini?

    4 @kirstiealley on @HowardStern: Where’s Shelly Miscavige? Not seen since 2007. Do you really believe psychiatrists caused the holocaust?

    4 @kirstiealley on @howardstern: Do U know non-celebs R FORCED 2 disconnect from family? @lori_hodgson can’t see her children @scientology

    4 @kirstiealley on @HowardStern: Do U know Sea Org work 100+hrs/wk for $50? No time off, treated like slaves? Yet KA promotes human rights!

    4 @kirstiealley on @HowardStern: How can U promote human rights when @scientology is the biggest offender of them? #Hypocrite

    Wow, you’ve been “talking with women” @TomCruise! Keep it up (no pun intended) and with @scientology you’ll be able to get a GF yet! #SetUp

    If @scientology promoted people stopped taking insulin as they do psych drugs MORE people would be enraged! Stop the mental illness stignma!

    Of course @scientology claims that all mental illnesses are made up by evil psychs! If you have one you just need vitamins & a quiet room!

    Look how @scientology treated Lisa McPherson when she needed psychiatric help, she died. They want you dead instead of getting pro help!

    If society as a whole would stop stigmatizing mental illness they’d realize how unethical & immoral @scientology’s anti-psych agenda is!

    When you hear them talk about psych drugs replace it with insulin, you’ll change how you think about @scientology & their anti-psych agenda.

    People reading this there’s NO shame if U have a mental illness! NONE! If someone makes U feel that way, tell them to fuck off! @scientology [I don’t usually swear in my tweets about the CO$, but sometimes? I think it’s necessary…]

    People in @scientology seem to forget that LRH had vistaril in his system when he died, which is a PSYCH DRUG! He never avoid such drugs!

    Why hasn’t COB @scientology created his own army? LRH created the Sea Org, so when’s COB gonna make his branch of their fake military?

    COB @scientology might make an air force though then @tomcruise could be a fighter pilot in it & fight off @mikerinder in a helicopter!

    Probably an air force for COB @scientology and then @tomcruise could be a 4 star little general. COB could get donations for planes! #Greed

    It’s worth repeating, I LOVE having @EarthLink as my ISP and using it to poke @scientology since it was created by a member of the cult! 🙂

    GO @PhiladelphiaGov! http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/11/27/Philadelphia-takes-Church-of-Scientology-to-Blight-Court/4311385565300/ Hold @scientology responsible for the blight they’re causing your city! Good for you!

    So @scientology buys a 15 story in Philadelphia & leaves it empty for SIX YEARS! Now the city is gonna take ’em to blight court! YEAH!

    Too bad that the nation can’t take @scientology to court for being a blight on religion, ethics, and common
    decency! Also fraud, abuse, etc.

    [I forgot to include CL links yesterday, oops!]

    If y’all could flag these as prohibited on @craigslist, thanks you! http://houston.craigslist.org/search/ccc?catAbb=eee&query=713+974+6295&zoomToPosting= @scientology keeps violating the TOU!

    Could you please flag these as prohibited http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/sss?catAbb=bbb&query=323+953+3206&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=&maxAsk= thank you! We WILL conquer @scientology & their violating @craigslist TOU!

    Here’s another page of LA @craigslist to flag please, thank you! http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/ccc?catAbb=eee&query=310+419+8200&zoomToPosting=

    One last @craigslist link with a lot in LA to flag please, thank you! http://losangeles.craigslist.org/search/ccc?catAbb=eee&query=818+772+7949&zoomToPosting=

    I’m sure this Thanksgiving COB @scientology is thankful he’s still able to pull off another money making scam to fill his coffers. #Greed

    What’s the Sea Org @scientology get for Thanksgiving? An extra minute to eat their rice & beans? 1-866-XSEAORG Don’t route out, BLOW!

    How many @scientology families will have empty seats @ the table due 2 the policy of disconnection? Yet @tomcruise doesn’t have 2 follow it.

    4 a group that claims 2 promote family @scientology does everything they can to tear ’em apart. They’re a totally hypocritical organization.

    • KJP in Portland

      Woohoo! Happy Thanksgiving Tia! Keep on tweeting!

      • Miss Tia

        Thanks! You too!

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      I give thanks for your tweets, Miss Tia. I also give thanks for Tony’s blog and my fellow bunkerites. Happy Thanksgiving, all!

      • Miss Tia

        Aw, thank you! I’m very thankful for Tony’s blog and my fellow bunkerites!!

      • Casabeca

        And back to you Free!

    • Troy MacGyver

      Howard has a great history of not only knocking all religions but he loathes scientonuts! On Youtube there are numerous examples of this. I’ll post later my dinners ready! Happy Day to you all.

      • Miss Tia

        Hope you had a great day! I know Howard loathes $cientology! I’m surprised she’s going on his show!!!!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Dear Lurkers,

    True PTS/SP Course:

    “JEFFERSON: Yes, these are the 12 attributes of an
    SP, reversed. And again, these may be used individually by
    Scientologists in the context of a PTS interview, but they are not used
    organizationally to clear someone of the accusation that they are an SP.
    Factually, if a Scientologist actually used this list to inspect the
    lives of, say, Leah Remini or Jason Beghe or Paul Haggis, they would
    have to come to the conclusion that these people could not possibly be
    “SP.” But this inspection does not happen.

    I’ll leave you with one last bit of irony. One of the attributes of
    an SP that Hubbard lists is “He or she speaks only in very broad
    generalities.” A social personality, he tells us, “is specific in
    relating circumstances.” It’s interesting that the whistle blowers who
    are exposing Scientology’s secrets and crimes are very specific,
    relating specific incidents — actual time, place and event. In rebuttal,
    Scientology always speaks in broad generalities — “they are all lying.”
    “They are bitter defrocked apostates” and so on. So, according to
    Hubbard’s rules, who’s the SP?”

    It’s that simple.

    • Lurkness

      Not only does $cientology speak in generalities, it is often doing the SP declares by spreading unwritten rumor and back-channel gossip which is also against “scripture.”

    • cicely neville

      I was particularly struck by “…cowed or ill associates.” !!

    • Doug Parent

      + 1000 % Dodo. In all of my years in the cult I NEVER saw any one person evaluated against these Social personality traits. They left the church, they were an SP. Period. This organization thinks and acts like a solid cluster of sociopaths all crunched and compressed into one common and singular cultural identity.

  • Verve

    “It’s axiomatic that if you want to control people, you have to give them an enemy.”

    Sadly, weirdly, oddly (ironicly?)- This is the same principle thing (minus the “control” and “give” parts) that bounds us together in times of true need. See WWII as an example. True, it’s not perfect, since we basically divided the world against each other, but each side unified against a common enemy.

    So for $cis, they need a common enemy to keep up with their increasingly BS stuff. And on the other side, there are us, shining the light on a true enemy, the side that tries to obfuscate and lie.

    Sorry if that was too rambling, it early yet.

  • LongNeckGoose

    LRH got the idea for Suppressive Persons from Hervey Cleckley’s book “The Mask of Sanity.” It is long out of print, but you can read it here:

    http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF

    There was also a recent bestseller called “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout on the same subject.

    I believe that sociopathic behavior is the same thing that the Catholic Church called “perfect possession” for centuries. I’m a Philip K. Dick fan, so I just call such people “replicants.” They have human form but are lacking in empathy.

    The idea of L. Ron Hubbard calling anybody else a sociopath reminds me of Rachel Rosen’s line in “Blade Runner”: “Did you ever take the test yourself, Mr. Deckard?”

    • LongNeckGoose

      On the same subject, when reading the 5 subtypes on the Wikipedia link, I was struck by how well 4 subtypes fit accounts of Hubbard by those who dealt with him personally:
      Malevolent (including sadistic and paranoid features)Belligerent, mordant, rancorous, vicious, malignant, brutal, resentful; anticipates betrayal and punishment; desires revenge; truculent, callous, fearless; guiltless.Covetous (variant of “pure” pattern)Feels intentionally denied and deprived; rapacious, begrudging, discontentedly yearning; envious, seeks retribution, and avariciously greedy; pleasure more in taking than in having.Risk-taking (including histrionic features)Dauntless, venturesome, intrepid, bold, audacious, daring; reckless, foolhardy, impulsive, heedless; unbalanced by hazard; pursues perilous ventures.Reputation-defending (including narcissistic features)Needs to be thought of as infallible, unbreakable, invincible, indomitable, formidable, inviolable; intransigent when status is questioned; over-reactive to slights.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        No question, Hubbard is the true Suppressive.

      • Eclipse-girl

        I claim those subtypes also fit Davey.

  • Graham

    Well Slappy meets at least 8 of the 12 attributes. And yes, speaking in very broad generalities is one of the most noticeable (Along with being surrounded by sick or cowed associates).

  • Truthiwant

    Happy Thanksgiving Day to everyone!

    Throughout history, many countries, religions and beliefs have had what is called a ‘Thanksgiving’ and it has always been a moment for reflection, not only to give thanks for the blessing of a harvest, but also as a contemplation of the preceding year. It is a wonderful moment for a family to unite and enjoy a day of being together and think of the true values of love and understanding.

    At this point, it would be very easy for me to farce the Church of Scientology, saying that their own ‘Thanksgiving’ is, infact, the IAS annual event, where they ‘harvest’ their biggest earnings for the year and tell extravagant and fantastic stories of the previous year. Well, I seem to have said it anyway, and it is probably true, unfortunately.

    But it is so sad that on such a fine and meaningful day that there could not be a moment of sincere empathy from the Church of Scientology to what the REAL values in life are.

    I personally have nothing against the notion of having lived trillions of times and the importance of discovering what apparently happened during one’s past lives, or ‘whole track incidents’ as they are called in Scientology. I do not believe in any of this, but I don’t object to it as an idea.

    I do, however, object to the concept of being told that this is the ONLY way to ‘Total Freedom’ and having to pay thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars to achieve this status.

    I do also strongly object to a Church telling it’s parishioners that they must disconnect from a family member or a friend who does not accept any more these beliefs and has simply stated it publicly. That, to me, is pure evil.

    I also do not believe that a Church should enslave its members into falsely believing that they are doing the ‘greatest good for humanity’ and justify any means to arrive at this so called objective. That is just not on.

    Unfortunately what I am saying is actually happening at this moment in the Church of Scientology. This is not what the word ‘Church’ is supposed to mean. Actually, Scientology’s definition of this word could not be further from its real significance.

    Today, however, is an important day, and I truly hope that everywhere there will be happiness, reflection and good will.

    Have a good day everybody!

    • sugarplumfairy

      Beautifully said, Truth..

    • joan nieman

      Excellent Truth!!

      • Truthiwant

        Have a great day!

  • Lurkness

    Happy Thanksiving Tony and thanks for the Bunker!

    • sugarplumfairy

      Second that! Thanks for the Bunker! Thanks to Tony, I have ringside seats to Scientoloclysm, baby..

    • i-Betty

      I third that 🙂 Happy Thanksgiving, Tony!

  • Truthiwant

    This black and white idea of Hubbard also comes in to Scientology’s Oxford Capacity Test. This is a list of 200 questions that, having answered them, the person is given a graph of his personality by an Org member.

    There are three ways to answer the questions (questions like “Do you often sing or whistle just for the fun of it?” or “Do you often make tactless blunders?”) and these are + o – where ‘+’ is in agreement or a yes with the question, ‘o’ is nor in agreement nor in disagreement or don’t know and ‘-‘ is not in agreement or no.

    It was common knowledge for the people that did this test many times to never give ‘o’ as an answer because it would automatically make the results of the test graph very low. Infact many people knew how to answer ‘correctly’ these 200 questions so as to give them a better result. Of course, the ‘o’ was the so called gray area that a Scientologist should never be in.

    The whole thing, of course, is stupid and has no meaning whatsoever.

    • Graham

      “The whole thing, of course, is stupid and has no meaning whatsoever.” Absolutely.

      I’d like to make a plea for writing Oxford within quotes. The “Oxford” Capacity Test has absolutely nothing to do with Oxford and anything we can do to make that point is all to the good.

      • RMycroft

        WISE companies selling “Hubbard Management” also call it the “Professional Personal Analysis” with a couple questions slightly re-worded. If you’re handed one of these as part of a job interview process, RUN!

        Example: http://www.gateconsulting.com/Default.aspx

      • Orglodyte

        Yes, the lying runs so deep! The OCA was written by early Scientologist Julia Lewis Salmen, also the subject of one of the most horrifying overboarding stories. It was originally called the American Personality Analysis but changed to Oxford so it would sound more authoritative. There is a great in-depth analysis of the OCA at Operation Clambake: http://www.xenu.net/archive/oca/

        • Graham

          Thanks for that Orglodyte. Good to have some background. I have friends who work for Oxford University and it touches a raw nerve to see their good name being high-jacked by scam artists.

    • Peter

      I got to the point where I could answer all the questions and have a completely straight line graph across the top of the graph! LOL

  • BosonStark

    The indies often cite the computerized lobby as Miscavige’s failure, when he should be using Dr. Hubtard’s tried and true tech of finding people’s ruin personally. Yet, ironically, the indies use computers too, to communicate whereas Dr. Hubtard would recommend telex and super powerz, or only belonging to the mother cult.

    The computers in lobbies are meant to give the illusion of freedom-of-choice. That’s what the Internet represents, and Miscavige had to exploit that to get beyond pointing to a 60 year-old crapsterpiece like Dianutty or using pressure sales techniques which simply don’t work at a time more and more people would just go home and start reading the Internet, when confronted with such techniques. The point is, seeing for yourself what is true no longer means diving into something and doing it. Instead, seeing the truth means reading about other people’s experiences with a group, product or method and you can do that on the Internet.

    The “contrarian,” as Wright called it, will always be more attracted to Scientology or other fringe groups. Using electronic displays, Miscavige is just playing up Scientology’s strong points in propaganda, hoping that something (one aspect of what Scientology offers) will resonate with today’s vulnerable confused person who is looking for all the answers or something that sounds really good, against all odds.

    The problem for Miscavige and Scientology is, more people will view these displays and just go home and check out some things about people’s real experiences, something that Hubbard did every thing he could to not allow.

    • kemist

      I feel the gradient thing and the secretive attitude does not help them either.

      We swim in a sea of information today. The problem is not getting it, but sorting it, and most of us, especially those steeped in the internet culture from childhood, have become adept at this as well as easily bored. An organisation that insists on feeding you small bites in a gradient has a very high chance of being quickly dismissed as uninteresting in favor of things which feed curiosity faster. I know that was my attitude in school until college. In my case, that was remediated with books on a bunch of unrelated subjects from genetics to astrophysics.

      • BosonStark

        So true. They used to pull out that course/bridge chart and it would impress people that the road to freedom was so clearly outlined, step-by-step, and sciloontific. All the research has been done by Dr. Hubtard, right? Now, how can people not wonder what is at the top of it, inside it, and behind it, now that it is so easy to find out?

        Same with people contemplating joining staff or the Sea Org, when they’re hooked on auditing but have run out of money. Now, they can find out about the Sea Org experience from people who have been there — sometimes been there for decades.

        Another thing shattered by the Internet is the delusion that Scientology has this incredible influence on everyone, for example, in a community where they build a new ideal Org. Members conflate Tom Cruise’s fame and popularity as a movie star with the importance and influence of Scientology in the world.

        Scientology has an emerging tiny market though in people who are bewildered or overwhelmed by the amount of information on the Internet. These are people who seek guidance and structure, and who want to believe in Scientology’s promises.

        • Missionary Kid

          Thankfully, the, “people who seek guidance and structure, and who want to believe in Scientology’s promises.” are far fewer than those recruited by the old fashioned personal methods.

    • Missionary Kid

      I grabbed “crapsterpiece” for my list of nicknames for L. RON HUBBARD’S WRITING AND SPEECH classic.

    • ze moo

      Dvd players and interactive computers don’t eat rice and beans and they don’t make mistakes. Those who were good at getting the new meat into courses wanted and got commissions, Dvds don’t collect commissions.

      Dvds and computers can’t easily find a persons ‘ruin’ and set the hook. While most body routers were not good at the craft, those who were good were paid for that skill. There is no monetary incentive for anyone to work at getting new meat in the door. Yeah, you could do it for the spirit of Lroon and because you worship Miscavige, but how many totally brainwashed clams are there? Lron was right to structure the pyramid the way he did. Money is the best incentive, missionary zeal may substitute in the short run, but it doesn’t work in the long haul.

  • sugarplumfairy

    Hopefully, Philly won’t bend over for co$ as quietly as Clearwater does..

    • Peter

      Clearwater, supposedly a “city”, is really a small town with small town attitudes, thus more easily cowed.

    • Eclipse-girl

      Since the building is unoccupied does the Co$ pay property tax on such Idle (M)Orgues?

      • Robert Eckert

        They certainly should.

      • sugarplumfairy

        I hope so!

        • Eclipse-girl

          later in the day, Max and I had a conversation / discussion about this.

          religions are given their tax exempt status. Only if we change the Federal Statutes can we take that away.

          municipalities are unlikely to use imminent domain to cease control of those properties because they have to pair fair market value for the property. Also there should be a plan in place as to what to do with the property. For example purchasing a whole city block to make a library or convention center.

          Max and I both agree the removal of tax exempt status on properties would help out municipalities throughout the US.

  • I’m really pleased that we’ll be spending a bit of time covering L Ron Hubbard’s PTS/SP Doctrine. Of all the pernicious Scientology teachings, it is this aspect which shifts Scientology from being a kooky but harmless UFO cult into the realm of violent criminal organisation. And, yes, indeed, what good cult can do without a few enemies? In fact, I would say that a cult cannot survive without enemies. Enemies provide a rallying point for members, generate acceptable excuses as to why the “tech” does not work, give sufficient motivation for good people to do evil things, and detract from a clear observation of the actions of the leader(s), to mention just a few of their uses. Not surprisingly, Scientology has a full range of enemies: the Marcabians, Xenu, the FBI, the FDA, the IRS, the media, eeeevil psychs, whole-track prison wardens, etc, etc, etc, and, yes, all can be neatly grouped under the single label “SP”.

    Earlier this year, Gerry Armstrong went into great depth on the subject of the “Supressive Person Doctrine” and its use by Scientologists – both within and outside of the cult – to demean those who speak truth about L
    Ron Hubbard and stand opposed to the abuses of Scientology. While Gerry and Jefferson appear to be in accord on most aspects raised in the OP, Gerry states that some significant aspects of L Ron Hubbard’s definition of a “Suppressive Person” do largely align with current psychiatric/psychological indicators of a sociopathic personality type. This alignment, Gerry posits, adds another dimension not fully covered here: the fact that by using and promoting the idea that “SP” is a synonym for sociopath, Scientologists are perpetuating the smears against designated “enemies” while also attempting to garner some sort of respectability for the work of L Ron Hubbard in the field of mental health.

    (PERSONAL NOTE: Happy Thanks Giving. We don’t have such a festival in my part of the world but I do understand how and why its important to y’all in the USA. Have a good one.)

    http://youtu.be/9RPPjOSFKok

    • i-Betty

      Gerry has the smiliest eyes 🙂

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        One huge funny insider joke, is that Gerry for years, was allowed to be shown even years after he’d been declared SP, in one of the Hubbard in house dissemination or movie training films. Gerry plays the role of a student who falls asleep while being given Hubbard ‘word clearing’. In this same Hubbard in house movie, loads of other SPs (ex Int Base or La Quinta Sea Org staffers) were allowed to continue to be shown even after they’d blown. That in house film I believe was finally updated, but due to it showing so many old “SP” former staff as actors in that film, it was kind of a joke, and each time I saw it, I carefully watched the “SP” actors not for the bad SP characteristics, but to see them as historical Sea Org members. “SPs” were immortalized even by the movement continue to display in house films that contained them as actors.

  • Sidney18511

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all my fellow bunkeretts, ALL the sclioon critics and to our host….Mr. O! Enjoy your feast today everyone, give thanks for all the good in your lives and hope for better days for all the families with empty chairs at their tables today due to the evil practice of disconnection.

    Please send your postulates to my still frozen turkey to help it thaw.

  • Lurkness

    I guess, 10k members in a metro area, is the new go to number (lie) for $cientology. In the lead up to the SP Building opening, sock puppet Pat Harney is quoted: “the church has 10,000 members in the greater Clearwater area, including 2,400 religious workers.”

    In the linked article above on the vacant Philly Idle Morgue and blight they are causing, Karin Pouw/DM says: “Scientology has 10,000 adherents in the Philadelphia area, where a smaller building on Race Street near 13th is still in use by the church. One former church member who lived in Philly for 25 years and asked not to be identified said fewer than 100 Scientologists were active in the city.”

    • Lurkness

      Also, last night Max spaceman pulled up the google picture referenced at the end of the Philly article.

      • RMycroft

        Just you wait! They’ll replace that old meter with a NEW Mark 8 EZ Bake and offer a Free Cookie Test!

        • Eclipse-girl

          free cookies would probably increase the stats

          • RMycroft

            And there’s the child market angle….

            One of FreakE420’s masterpieces:

            • Captain Howdy

              Awesome & creepy

          • OrangySky

            Cupcakes would boom them even more!

            • Eclipse-girl

              caek?

            • OrangySky

              Of course. Maybe red velvet?

    • Truthiwant

      Maybe Karin Pouw has a problem with her computer and the 0 gets stuck.
      Of course, the number of Scientologists in the world are 70000000000000000000000000 oops!

    • Lurkness

      Ignoring the fact that $cientology has left the building vacant and deteriorating for SIX years, “In an email yesterday, Pouw said the church would address the window issue soon. She wrote that a “single window that a workman temporarily repaired with plywood” was “hardly news.”

      “[A]n occasional broken window is an occupational hazard when one undertakes the kind of extensive building restoration projects in major urban areas that we do,” Pouw wrote.

      Except they are NOT doing any restoration work to this day. Glad Philly.com also called Karen on her previous misrepresentations:

      “No work had been done there when the Daily News contacted the church in 2011 for a profile on Miscavige, although spokeswoman Karin Pouw said that interior designs were finished and construction documents were being completed. … “We hope to commence renovations toward the end of 2012 for a spring 2013 opening,” Pouw wrote in an email Dec. 13, 2011.”
      lying, liars who lie, comes to mind.

    • villagedianne

      Oh nooooooo! The Lurkness Monster!

    • Verve

      Funny how I’ve never met anyone or even heard of $ci in Philly until I came to the Bunker, and that was only due to the CraigsList debacle. Yep, $ci is huge and healthy in Philly. And growing!
      Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    Happy Thanksgiving to each and every one of you Suppressives!

    Even lurking trolls ;-).
    Have a turkey samich and be happy.

    • monkeyknickers

      “Have a turkey samich and be happy.”

      Or a troll sandwich. And wish you hadn’t. ? 🙂

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I hear they taste like chicken!

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          I see what you did there.

      • kemist

        Juicy troll sandwich with Espi sauce, nom nom nom…

      • Casabeca

        I really hesitated making my ApPLE , onion, sage, celery, cornbread stuffing today.
        Decided to disquise by means of food processor .
        At least there were no giant prunes or something in there. 😉
        I hope you got your wish of no fruit stuffing today .

  • J. Swift

    7. The antisocial personality cannot finish a cycle of action…

    The Super Power Building took fifteen years to open and over $200,00,000 was raised. David Miscavige opened the empty building by mumbling for eight minutes over the din of the two Mike’s helicopter. Whereupon, David Miscavige turned tail and ran inside the building not to be seen again for several days.

    David Miscavige’s associates are cowed and ill.

    Ladies and gentlemen, here is the SP:

    http://otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/capt-miscavige2.png

    • Lurkness

      Hiding is also -8 on the tone scale!

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      We in RTC are reliably informed that the marble floors, carpeting, and NASA equipment inside the Super Power Building are magnificent.

      However, we have not been allowed to tour the inside of Super Power as COB has declared us all to be Provisional SP’s, this due to the helicopter flap created by two bitter defrocked apostates.

      In happier news, turkey meatloaf and green beans are being served this evening at the Base. COB has also granted us a full thirty minute dinner break.

      • Rupi

        Are you sure it’s turkey meatloaf? Maybe it’s python…

      • Eclipse-girl

        I was concerned that the S.O. and other staff were not going to get a decent meal.

        Its not like they are allowed to call their families.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          I wished a separate chapter “History of Sea Org food, by Continent and Echelon” be done, as overall, Sea Org cooking surpassed my family’s cooking, sorry family!

          Sinar Parmen, for years, made unbelievably delectable meals and influenced staff cooking at the Int Base, and so many other great cooks. Even the long ago famous LRH Cook Arden Hansen, when she fell to staff cooking duties, served us Flag Land staffers with some gourmet beans and rice, Love you Arden and Sinar!!! Happy Thanksgiving to the real great Sea Org cooks, behind the scenes, who tried make do, and serve us Sea Orgers up with quality chow!!

          • Eclipse-girl

            I am glad there were times when people were fed, and may even have received gourmet beans and rice.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              As in all human prison stories, there were many great decent people to cheer the fellow inmates!

    • Captain Howdy

      Does the estate of Robert Francis know you are defaming his memory with your J&D shoopiness? ; )

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!
  • stillgrace2

    I love articles that reference “bitter, defrocked apostates”! Maybe Mr. Hawkins can work in “enormous grain of salt” in next week’s PTS explanation. It’s interesting that all the definitions and conditions for SP-ness ultimately boil down to: if you’re against scientology, or Miscavige, or Hubbard, you are an SP! Bottom Line. Period.
    Well, I think SPs Rule!! Happy Thanksgiving to all American SPs here in the Bunker. Let’s celebrate our SP-ness!

  • Mother Teegeeack

    No surprise that Cruise was the prime Ideal Org-motivator for the Malicious Dwarf.

    The two diminutive men are simpatico, and it isn’t just their shared Napoleonic short man’s complex.

    The awe-struck South Philly bully and high school-dropout sought to please the dyslexic, seminary school-dropout movie star.

    The pair share a passion for Scientology and a certainty that the Ginger-haired Gastropod’s dreck has great value, when in reality, any $8 self-improvement paperback at Barnes & Noble would offer the reader a better avenue to human potential and achievement than do all of Hubbard’s tomes combined.

  • monkeyknickers

    All these cults’ “us against them”, it’s true . . . . Scientology is totally like Crips v. Bloods without all that pesky urban blight and gunfire. But! PLUUS more human trafficking and SuperPower ™ Waffle Irons. So it all evens out.

    Happy Tday, darlings, and bon appetit. You’ll be eating it for two weeks, so get ready with soup ideas. 🙂

  • Krew13

    Yay! Let’s rejoice! Tom may have found a new greatest love of his life! Will she be just as greatest love of his life as Katie was? Will he jump up and down on a couch to declare how in love he is? This is so sweeeeet! And will she also escape in a few years and get a divorce?

    • Missionary Kid
      • RMycroft

        Dating, marrying, denying–it doesn’t matter! It’s all good noise for distracting the tabloids from that libel case that keeps going off the rails in messy ways.

        • Missionary Kid

          You’re right. It’s all a matter of distraction. That’s all that $cientology is: distraction so one doesn’t think intelligently about it and dismiss it as crap.

      • Robert Eckert

        So that makes four women he has gotten rid of at age 33!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Baahaaahaaa!

  • Krew13
    • tetloj

      He looks very Revenge of the Nerds in that pic.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I have seen others photos from perhaps the same event, certainly the same era.
      Mismaggot’s hairs is just so “odd.”

      could he be going bald? Would he wear a toupee at events?

      • Mark

        I think he forgot to tell someone to pack his can of industrial-strength ‘Elnett’ in all the excitement over appearing in public with Tommy-Girl looking all butch wearing a macho leather jacket.

        • Casabeca

          How do you know all the fashion “cult ” favorites by name?
          You amaze me with your subject matter breadth and depth.
          Love it!

      • ze moo

        I suspect a visit to the ‘hair club for men’ went wrong. Or Hair Plugs are US’ was having a sale. At least he didn’t get Travoltas ‘chia hair’.

    • OrangySky

      He looks like a sad desperate loser finally being included with the popular kids.

      • Krew13

        LOL! Good one and so true!

    • RMycroft

      Katie Holmes’ expression .. bodes foreshadowing.

    • Missionary Kid

      It’s interesting to me (and I think that TC and DM are douches) that people read all sorts of things into pictures. All I see is several unremarkable people.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I dunno, that tall guy on the far right looks pretty remarkable to me.

        • Missionary Kid

          You mean the guy with the shaved head?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Yah, he looks kinda hot!

  • Imelda Marcos

    “In my opinion, Hubbard was trying to establish a patina of scholarliness
    to this announcement, to position it as a technical breakthrough.”
    This is an excellent way to describe his speaking style as well. This strikes me about a lot of his babbling. Sometimes I get the sense I am reading incoherent “word salad”, sometimes I can see him reaching for big words and concepts to make himself sound and feel important, sometimes there is a strange sense that he is throwing words out to see if they ‘stick’.

    • Missionary Kid

      I believe all of the previous speculation of describing Hubbard’s speaking can be summed up as, “he is throwing words out to see if they ‘stick’.”

      As far as his methods go, he would try one thing, abandon it if it didn’t work, and adopt it if it did. That’s why I claim that he wasn’t brilliant, just that he adapted over the years to end up with something that kept making him money.

      • Imelda Marcos

        Oh, yeah, he sounds not so bright when he natters. I’m saying this as a “never-in”, btw, it’s astounding what a bad speaker he was.

        • Missionary Kid

          It’s almost painful to listen to him, isn’t it?

          • Eclipse-girl

            N. Graham put up a video the Ron did in the 1970’s while he was on board the Apollo. it was done by the BBC. It was really hard to watch. I just wanted to slap the evil grin off his face. The vid did give one plenty of evidence of his rotting teeth, too.

          • Imelda Marcos

            There’s another good way to describe his speaking style!

    • OrangySky

      Excellent, Imelda.

      I’ve dealt with people like this, even recently. I’m smart, educated, and I pick up new concepts quickly, usually. Sometimes it takes me longer. But I’m confident enough, after a lifetime of trial and error, that (unless it’s advanced trigonometry or physics – in other words, if it involves numericals!) if I have to go back and read something 3 or 4 times to be able to make heads or tails out of it, it’s 90% likely that the problem isn’t my intelligence, or an MU. The problem is probably in the writer who is trying to explain it and is unable to do so coherently.

      Recently a PR firm submitted to me a proposal/fundraising prospectus for a project I’m involved with. The claim from the company was that the document had been “copyedited already” and was ready to go out immediately with just a final OK from the principals (including me.) Writing is what I do and I could tell right away that a) if it HAD been copyedited, it was copyedited by a teenager who had only learned grammar and punctuation in terms of texting and b) beyond that, the person who wrote the copy had absolutely no knowledge of rhetoric, of advertorial or persuasive writing, and probably wasn’t even certain of what s/he was trying to say. (It reminded me of a “fill up the bluebook” final exam written by a student who hadn’t done any of the coursework.)

      Another colleague read the same document. He took the claim of it having been to the copyeditor and being ready to go at face value (it didn’t hurt that the graphics were really slick.) Reading it, he sheepishly said he “didn’t think he understood it,” placing the blame on himself.

      LRH counted on people like that colleague to read his nonsensical made up bullshit and believe it was really over their heads, the work of genius, and that the onus was on them to learn how to comprehend it.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        You are knocking them out of the park today, woman!

        • OrangySky

          Love you Bury!

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Ditto, Missy!

      • Once_Born

        If you’re anxious for to shine in the high aesthetic line,
        as a man of culture rare,
        You must get up all the germs of the transcendental terms,
        and plant them everywhere.
        You must lie upon the daisies and discourse in novel phrases of your
        complicated state of mind,
        The meaning doesn’t matter if it’s only idle chatter
        of a transcendental kind.
        And everyone will say,
        As you walk your mystic way,
        “If this young man expresses himself in terms too deep for me,
        Why, what a very singularly deep young man
        this deep young man must be!”

        WS Gilbert

      • Imelda Marcos

        “LRH counted on people like that colleague to read his nonsensical made
        up bullshit and believe it was really over their heads, the work of
        genius, and that the onus was on them to learn how to comprehend it.” Exactly! This pretty much mirrors what I think about him. No one would question him, they would think, “It must be me”. I don’t know why I’m so fascinated by this, there’s so much of his writing out there and it’s all utter bullshittery, lol.

        I’m just a Canadian, but Happy Thanksgiving to you!

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Thanks for all the information today, along with the Jefferson Hawkins’ central essay. Jefferson, I am lucky to be able to share your insights. I always understood that Scientology didn’t work without the SP. I also knew that an SP was two things– an antisocial personality but most importantly someone who didn’t like Scientology and not simply because he handed seen it or was fed the wrong information by a so-called friend. Scientology equals bad had to be his own deluded observation. But I did miss the polarization of them. I didn’t quite see that someone couldn’t be half SP. What if they were stuck in two past life electronic incidents? Would they be double SP? What if the electronic incident was a shock on the tongue from a 9 volt battery? What if there was no one around at the time to say, “Hate all of mankind, especially hack SF writers”. Would the person just have an engram concerning electricity? I guess either you’re an SP or you’re not. Some, like Paulette Cooper I suppose, are just really good at SPing.

    I did learn two things from Hubbard’s SP, three if you count that Scientologists are a bunch of skunks.

    One, some people are really downers or cynics and they are often unpleasant to be around. They don’t do my mental health any good either. Their characteristics are SIMILAR BUT NOT THE SAME as Hubbard’s SP list. Just as an example, I used to love listening to Howard Stern on the way to work each morning. He is a funny guy and puts on a great show. But when the Toronto station stopped playing him, my vocabulary changed, my outlook on life became more positive, my conversation became more upbeat and I was probably a nicer person to be around. Stern is a cynic, a downer, a creep and an aggressively obnoxious individual. Funny as hell, though. And he is not an SP, of course. Aside from his being funny his most redeeming trait is that he makes fun of Scientology. Has anyone noticed though, that there was a point where, before making light of it, he would add a qualifier. He would say that Scientology is like all religions and that they all have their extreme points? I am certain that they got to him and he just didn’t want the trouble.

    Two, a lot of people throw in the word sociopath, the way Scientologists use the word, “Suppressive”. Their boss is a sociopath, as is their brother-in-law, their next door neighbour and their former best friend. I think these people want to have science on their side when condemning someone they don’t like. I ignore the description of others as being sociopaths, unless they are killers who have gone through the courts and been judged criminally insane.

    • Captain Howdy

      Agreed, the word “sociopath” is on the verge of becoming a PC cliche. If your husband or boyfriend cheats on you it’s because he’s a sociopath etc. And as unpopular as this is going to be, the New York Times and the APA, among other respected entities, trashed “The Sociopath Next Door”.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        I am not surprised that other, more respected observers, have noticed the trivial use of sociopath. If not for my experience with Hubbard, with his calling everyone who doesn’t support him a suppressive, I think I would have been sucked in.

        • Captain Howdy

          I’ve been a crime buff for forty something years and the designation back then was “psychopath”. The term “serial killer’ wasn’t even invented until 1977 by legendary FBI profiler John Douglas. The term “sociopath” didn’t become part of the popular vernacular until the late 80’s, early 90’s, thanks in no small part to the novels of Thomas Harris.

          Ted Bundy was a sociopath. Your asshole spouse, girlfriend, neighbor, creep on the street, curmudgeon, misanthrope..not so much, and describing them as such just cheapens the word.

          • Eclipse-girl

            This hurts and scares me and others who have dealings with people who were sociopaths, or people with sociopathic tendencies.

            You will never know the fear or terror those damaged people cause.
            Outsiders think they are normal, because they know how to pass.
            Only the victims know them from the heartless bastards that they are, and the victims are not always believed.

            • Captain Howdy

              I’m not saying there aren’t sociopaths that aren’t serial killers or mass murderers. All I’m saying is the term has become a catch all pop psychology buzz word to some degree.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I didn’t mean to attack you. I apologize.

              I agree with you the the term “sociopath” is being used far too freely, and it cheapens the word.

              I have been a victim, and I am not sure I will ever fully recover.
              Hence my fear at the loss of the powerful term. Hence my concern for victims.

              I apologize. It was not my intent to disagree with you.

            • Captain Howdy

              Contrary to rumor, it’s OK to disagree with me : )

            • stillgrace2

              Ha! I was typing the same thing!

            • Casabeca

              Amen, and shiver – shudder from the memories.
              I testify!

          • OrangySky

            To use one of Hubbard’s infamous favorite words, sociopathy can be diagnosed on a ‘gradient.’ For example, there are sociopaths like Ted Bundy who have no conscience whatsoever about killing or torturing another human (or animal.) Then there are sociopaths who would never think of killing (or maybe they’d think about it but would never attempt it) but who have no compunction about lying, cheating or stealing someone blind.

            But you make a good point, Captain – sociopath doesn’t = “asshole.”

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I agree with you wholeheartedly.
        Just because someone is an asshole, does not make them a sociopath.

        • Missionary Kid

          I would call a specific behavior sociopathic, but that doesn’t make a person a sociopath.

          • OrangySky

            Good point MK.

  • i-Betty

    THE BUNKER: So how do we identify an SP?”

    43, long brown hair, sometimes wears specs, interested in Georgian and Regency history, likes bike rides and swimming, reads a lot of Terry Pratchett and Tolkien, knows computers, loves her family and friends.

    I offer myself up for dissection 😀

  • Jimmy Threetimes

    Just posting a reminder that Suppressive Poultry is fair game. I recently declared a bird and locked it in a cooler with an apple cider brine. Hope you all have a great Thanksgiving.

    • villagedianne

      We are all Suppressives here. If you ate your Suppressive Poultry, does that make you a cleared cannibal?

  • D.Y.G.

    Let the cooking commence. One turkey is in the oven. Some of the menfolk are going to try to burn down the garage again deep frying a second turkey and the rest are out plowing snow. My boys are home from college and the princess is probably going to sleep until noon. Grandma is in the recliner with a cup of tea (possibly with an added dollop of Wild Turkey). Life is good.

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      What an awesome scene.
      It almost makes me miss snow.

      Almost.

      • D.Y.G.

        I can’t blame you for not missing snow! It looks pretty but its only 18 degrees with 20-30 mph wind. Its cold!

        • monkeyknickers

          BEAUTY.

          And “maybe” Grandma has tea with a dollop of Wild Turkey?? COME ON NOW. We all know the other way ’round! :))

          • scottishinlondon

            I thought you came from a partly Scots background – what on earth are your family doing mixing whisky with tea? Sacrilege!!! Ah well, I guess it’s only bourbon

          • joan nieman

            Oh! Grandma is a sly old gal!

          • Kim O’Brien

            happy wonderful day goddess . i am playing the lotto and i was promised a winning ticket so i can come see you and help you with the kiddos . So i got that going for me …which is good 😉

            • monkeyknickers

              HELL YA.

              And right back atcha mizzy.

            • Casabeca

              Hi ya Monkey! Happy T Day.
              We had a guest for dinner who is due on Dec 2 with her first baby.
              I got to feel her belly while the baby had the hiccups.
              I always think of you when I see her :-).
              I hope you had a great day!

      • Robert Eckert

        Detroit got a half-inch after we thought we had gotten away with it.

        • Captain Howdy

          Speaking of Detroit, where the fluck is Sub-Geinus1?

          He is one of the few people around here with decent taste in music. The Cardinal and E being the other two..oh and Mark also.

          • Robert Eckert

            He has posted only a couple times since around the time that THDNE disappeared.

            • i-Betty

              I really miss her.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Me too, but I think she felt it was time to move on.
              Sometimes that is a good thing…to just be able to walk away.
              😉
              Of course I am so full of turkey I could just be gobbling.

            • i-Betty

              Thanks, B. Then I hope she knows how loved she is, and how missed she will be. Sometimes you have done all you can hope to do and it’s time to move on to pastures new, and may hers be very green. Happy Thanksgiving, Bury 🙂

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            He hangs at Rinder’s now.

            • Captain Howdy

              The dickens you say!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Hey, I am just reporting the Dayta!

          • Casabeca

            You might find him at John P.’s new blog.

    • Missionary Kid

      And to think that those of us in the low desert complain that our highest temperature today is going to be 73F (22.8C). Tonight, it’s going to get real cold: 50F (10C) Brrrrrrrrrr.

      • It’s about 64F with temps going into the mid 40s tonight here in southeastern Tulare County. Actually a bit warm for this time of year. Just put in some snow peas last week after soaking them in water for a few days, I got a lot of them to the green shoot stage before planting them. We’re probably looking at a crop in late Jan or early Feb of next year.

    • music8r

      Beautiful! Is that a Cleary barn? Ours looks very like yours, complete with snow. Happy Thanksgiving!

    • OrangySky

      Gorgeous!

    • Imelda Marcos

      How beautiful. It sounds like life is good. 😉

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    Alexa update for Nov. 27: *refresh for image*

    Tony: US rank #13,740 – up 74 from yesterday.
    Scientology: US rank #36,847 – down 544 from yesterday.

    Difference: 23,107 – 618 more than yesterday.

    • Mark

      Oho! – the “visit scientology dot org ten times a day or lose an ethics condition you @$$#*£%$” Sea-Borg campaign seems to have ground to a halt, as Shortarse’s notoriously short attention-span veers back to the tent. Or else the Indian click-farmers have upped their charges…

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        India only accounts for 2,6% as of Nov. 27.

        Maybe “the big push” is over for now. With TC and Laura Prepon preparing to get married (see http://otviiiisgrrr8.com ), Ol’ Slappy probably has his hands full with cakes, napkins and flowers at the moment 😉

  • iCandy

    Happy Turkey Day everyone! Here’s a photo of the front row of the opening of the SP building. Maybe I’m late to the party and you’ve already seen it, but I’ll share anyway. From this story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2514684/Tom-Cruise-denies-romancing-fellow-Scientologist-Laura-Prepon-looking-date.html

  • Collin

    Happy Thanksgiving to all!

    Yes i remember when the Tampa org was in a strip mall, and there were a few attractive russian girls out there trying to pull people in, that place was a dump, unfortunately now they occupy one of the largest buildings in Tampa now , and it used to be a beer garden and a shopping area, talk about helping destroy the economy of Tampa even further, now its all lit up at all hours of the day and night, i cant even imagine what the electric bill must be.

    • Captain Howdy

      Stupidtology closed down a beer garden?

      Now I’m angry, REAL…oh well, you get the picture.

      • ze moo

        Now you know why the Germans dislike them so much.

    • Casabeca

      How is work going?
      Happy T day to you and yours :).

  • Madora Pennington

    The ideal orgs remind me of Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu’s People’s Palace – never finished, den of crime that bankrupted the country in construction costs.

    Does TC think he’s Jewish? Why did he try to sue Bauer of being Nazi’s? He needs to stop talking legal advice from David Miscavige.

    Excellent analysis, Jeff! Those 12 characteristics are a set-up to teach the members to shut off the communication of any dissatisfied customer fast, even before officially thrown out.

    • D.Y.G.

      Apparently the accusation is that Bauer media was once guilty of bigotry towards Jews and now they’re indoctrinating Americans to be bigoted towards Scientology.

      • Captain Howdy

        “The church is notorious for tenaciously attempting to silence its critics and for equating any criticism with religious bigotry. It even compares the plight of Scientologists to that of Jews in Nazi Germany.” – Tori Marlan, Death of a Scientologist, Chicago Reader August 15, 2002

        vallarrr and the rest of the scilon trolls were always trying to equate opposition to CofS with Nazism and at the same time trying to analogize their imagined suffering with that of the Jewish people during WWll. Some really, really sick shit, even for them.

        • Espiando

          It isn’t only the Scilon trolls. Some indies are in the habit of this as well. Ronnie Bell did this over at Das Rinderblog a few days ago. I called him out on it (in my own inimitable way, saying that if Scientologists = Jews In Nazi Germany, I’d be happy to be one of the blackshirts), and he responded by calling me “Adolph”.

          Persecution complexes are a hard habit to break.

          • Missionary Kid

            Espiando, what follows is in no way an ad hominem attack. I think you got stuck in a lousy metaphor.

            I didn’t read the thread, but in my mind, if you equated yourself to the SS, it would be logical that you’d try to be like Adolf.

          • Captain Howdy

            Happy Sappy Crappy Birthday, E!

            http://youtu.be/PyM4uAJBujA

          • Missionary Kid

            Oops. I forgot to wish you a happy birthday!!! BTW, I loved your missive to the troll yesterday.

        • OrangySky

          Yes, and they love the term “Hate speech” to refer to anything critical – or even J&D – about Scientology.

          You’ll hear them saying, “You wouldn’t say those things if I were a Jew!”

          They like to borrow the outrage of anti-Semitism even though millions of Scientologists were never put in camps and exterminated.

          I’ve been watching some classic standup over the past few weeks. Including lot of hilarious and smart material in which various comics ridiculed Catholicism, Jesus, praying to Mecca, and Jewish guilt.

          None of those comics was called out for Hate Speech – in fact the people laughing the hardest in the audience were the ones who belonged to those religions!

          This is called “free expression.”

          No one buys your “Hate speech!” whining any more, either, Davey.

        • Kim O’Brien

          that is what got me kicked off Marty’s blog …some one made that comparison and i was like ” WTF ?” …no soup for me

    • RMycroft

      Bert Fields, Tom Cruise’s lawyer, is fond of tossing the N-bomb, especially when Germany is involved. Mind you, he’s very specific about which Nazi years that he’s talking about…

      Scientologists and Nazis June 26, 1997, Bertram Fields, New York Review of Books

  • Racnad

    It should be blindingly obvious to anyone in Scientology that the tech itself in regard to Suppressive Persons is not followed. As Jeff pointed out, the comparison of a person to the 10 characteristics is rarely done, and the only criteria becomes if the person is criticizing Scientology, or if they have a disagreement with management and will not back down. Also curious is that according to the description, “SPness” can’t be cured, as Scientology won’t work on them. So there are lots of examples of a person being well-liked and respected in the Scientology world for years, then they’re declared Suppressive. But a few months or years later the declaration is lifted, and they’re “good” people again – plain proof that “Suppressive Person” is just a label applied to someone and not an inherent quality of the person.

  • Eclipse-girl

    Thanksgiving wishes to all members of the Bunker.
    I hope you are with people who love you and care about you.
    We are the lucky ones if we have that.

    Happy Birthday, Espiando. Enjoy yourself.

    • Casabeca

      Back to you!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    Happy Thanksgiving.

    The Scientology wordsmiths in “What Is Scientology” book, and the “Scientology Handbook” spin Hubbard’s SP doctrine as positive stuff that makes the world a better place and lets Scientology get on with doing good.

    It’s so obvious, that tens of thousands of ex Scientologists who have been labelled “SP” are not at all factually bad.

    The whole SP doctrine fits in with the characteristics of the cranks who dream up pseudo-science subjects.

    Cranks see evil in the outside world who attack the cranks’ crappy subjects!

    “Fads and Fallacies”, by Martin Gardner, a great book that fits Hubbard and Hubbard’s institutionalized SP doctrines that protect Hubbard and his delusional followers from the outside world’s criticism of Hubbard’s crank past/future lives trauma pseudo-therapy and Hubbard’s high volume crank exorcism of the dead space alien souls that supposedly mess up our minds!

    Cranks get all conspiratorial when their crank practices get criticized.

    During the years I worked in “Senior HCO” (the Sea Org sub unit that housed the International Justice Chief, the Senior Personnel Officer International, Senior Inspections and Reports International,,,blah blah, I was the Senior Routing Forms In Charge in Senior HCO Int), all a whole office of sub level admin people, in middle management, the “HGB level” of middle management, NOT Int Base, but the next echelon down, what today is niched as part of the “International Liaison Org” (ILO), god using their words is a necessity but guaranteed to cause boredom.

    I sat for a couple years, within 15 feet of the Int Justice Chief, and his secretary, his wife. The IJC was the one who authored the SP declares of those years, 1983-1986. The IJC’s penned SP declares always had to get AVC approval and Marc Yager did a lot of the IJC’s rejection critiques, I know, I read a few of the rejects from Marc Yager to Paul Leclair (then the IJC).

    In our Senior HCO Int office, we’d sometimes get assigned to do “Boards of Review” on famous, or infamous bad past SP people. I myself was assigned to be the Chairman on a couple of “Review Committees of Evidence” and several “Boards of Review”.

    I always tried to err towards undoing the SP declares, and my favorite Hubbard administrative rule loophole, that loophole is still in the latest edition of the “Introduction to Scientology Ethics Book.”

    I did Peter Gillham Jnr’s “Review Comm Ev” and then was told stop doing the Review Comm Ev, since there was a change of decision to give Peter Jnr his Review Comm Ev.

    I similarly began the Review Comm Ev for Alex Sibersky’s SP declare, then was told likewise to cease giving Alex his justice due!

    The Hubbard Ethics Book when taken seriously, in detail, by the mid management nerds, like I was, is a serious thing, it consumed hours of reviewing all the person’s Ethics Files, and then gathering people together to interview, including the person to get their testimony.

    I participated on about 10-20 Comm Evs in my Sea Org career, and usually on the weirder ones.

    I liked trying to sort those people’s sagas out, actually.

    The most difficult thing, was when orders came down from Int cancelling what we were trying to do, telling us to just cease doing the action we were doing for the “SP” person.

    I did get one Comm Ev done, thankfully, and removed the tarnish off one man.

    The loophole Hubbard slipped into his justice system was easily overruled, and people at Int, could countermand the loophole that Hubbard’s book gives.

    Here’s how the loophole works, the one I used.

    Page 361 of the Ethics Book, today, gives the policy Hubbard actual statement, is the final phrase in a long paragraph, but is a hugely important phrase:

    “…does not weigh the value of a person in general against the alleged crime even when proven.”

    How I got people off, or let them off, was on this phrase alone.

    I looked upon all of the Sea Org people and those Scientologists who were pleading to have their SP declares overturned, all had just mountains of good value that wasn’t being in general weighed in their favor, despite the inflated “crimes” against them.

    This is the hugest mistake in ALL SP declares. People have not had their full decades of contributions weighed in their favor, and instead are tossed out on spur of the moment opinions against them.

    Using this phrase, and then plugging this phrase into the requirements of what constitutes grounds to official overturn past bad justice actions, is contained in the same Ethics Book, page 383,

    “…The Board [Board of Review] can only cancel an action, directive or order which has been found to……
    …..[skip ahead to the KEY clause]…… e. Violate basic LRH policy.”

    Thus, is how I overturned people’s SP declares. I found that the original SP declaring failed to weigh the person’s contributions, and thus violated basic LRH policy.

  • El Con Blubbard

    Read the list of the “anti social”….then LOOK at Scientology. The Church of Scientology has ALL of the Anti-Social characteristics…and by Hubbard’s own definition – are a VERY EVIL Suppressive Organization!!

    WOW – just fricken amazing that the clubbed seals can’t even see that they are part of one of the most evil con scams in the History of the World!! Poor souls!

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    Happy Birthday, Espiando.

    I hope you have that fireplace in the new apartment cranked up.
    Enjoy yourself and have a great day.

    • i-Betty

      Nice heads up 🙂 Happy birthday, Espiando! What a great day to have your birthday. x

    • Espiando

      Unfortunately, the fireplace is not yet unblocked of boxes sitting in front of it. However, I do have to get to those sometime today. There’s also the issue of something to burn inside of it. It’s either cardboard or copies of Science of Survival. I’m swinging toward the latter, but don’t know where I can get a hold of mass quantities of…oh, wait, the Chicago Org should have a whole bunch of those.

      • stillgrace2

        maybe they will deliver … for a fee, of course! Their stats will soar. Happy Birthday!!!
        Maybe a troll will come along today … a birthday treat for you! ***

        • Missionary Kid

          SOS did, but apparently it was a drive-by.

          • stillgrace2

            maybe he flew upside down out of the picture?

            • Missionary Kid

              SOS came back for another strike. They’re probably doing the turkey cooking in between posts.

      • OrangySky

        Happy Birthday Espiando!

  • Nevermore

    Happy Thanksgiving, Colonists and Those Who Were Already There! And Happy Birthday Espiando!

    • Robert Eckert

      As a Native American comic put it: “I have mixed feelings about Thanksgiving. Don’t you just hate it when you have people over for dinner, and they NEVER LEAVE?”

      • joan nieman

        Love that one Robert and it’s downright factual too!

      • Nevermore

        I’ve always thought that a Native American celebrating Thanksgiving must be like an Irish person having a party to ‘celebrate’ An Gorta Mor (the Great Famine)ie, why would you? Having said that, I used to work for an American company and Thanksgiving Dinner was one of the highlights of the year. Hope y’all enjoyed yourselves, and stayed out of Walmart!

  • media_lush

    John P’s blog is starting to look a lot more sexy now…… http://www.johnpcapitalist.com/

    • i-Betty

      You’re right, it is! I love the new layout.

  • Funnybroad

    For the Python fans…

  • ze moo

    The ‘Idle mOrg’ idea will be the clampires downfall. They {may have had} a problem with magical thinking before, but the ‘build it and they will come’ line only works in metaphysical movies about family and baseball. It doesn’t work in the real world. I don’t see it so much as a bad business investment but as a bad social investment.

    The attraction for the idle mOrgs was to cut out another level of the pyramid and have corporate CO$ take the place of the few franchise holders and commission collecting clams left in the community. These lower level ‘churches’ and missions were the ones were tasked with bringing in the new meat. That was their speciality, though I can’t begin to guess how good the idle morgs are at that ‘game’.

    The New Zealand idle morg got large loans from corporate, how many other locations can say that? Philly does not appear to be the beneficiary of such ‘Charity’. Until the local cheesesteakers pay for the building and all it renovation and even then title of the building will be vested with corporate co$.

    There just aren’t enough fools around who think this is a good idea. Loyalty to Miscavige can’t disguise this to anyone. No wonder Germany is losing 10% of the clam population each year. The defection rate is probably just as high in the US. You can’t keep slapping someone in the face and expect them to smile at you. $cientololgy does seem to demand that.

  • Funnybroad

    Cruise-Aid.

  • Espiando

    A Birthday Dream:

    Mayor Emanuel is at a podium, announcing that the Artcraft Building has been taken over by the City of Chicago via eminent domain due to its owners turning it into a shambles and preventing the area from being further gentrified. As he takes his pen to sign the document, Psycho Bitch from the Chicago Org rushes the podium and tries to pull the document out of Rahmbo’s hands. As some burly cops wrestle down Psycho Bitch, Dominic observes from the sidelines, expressionless, but the drops of sweat falling off of his mustache betrays him. He knows that this one will send him to the RPF…

    …no, I don’t really wish that on Dominic. He made it pretty clear that he was Just Following Orders when he stalked and photographed us. But Psycho Bitch? She deserves a chance to find out that Orange Is The New Black. Maybe she could ask Laura Prepon for advice with her one phone call.

    • Sandy

      Happy birthday, Espiando

    • Missionary Kid

      Your admirers are wondering if you’re going to bother with SOS, who just showed up again.

      • Espiando

        I was doing a shit/shower/boxes at the time. I think I made up for it.

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup. SOS appears to be inactive. I think it was a drive-by. Loved your reply, and Happy Birthday again!!!!

  • FLUNK101

    Dear Mr Ortega,

    It’s been said that you tell the story of Scientology is such a way that the only logical conclusion is you’d have to be an idiot to be a Scientologist.

    You are 80% right.

    Speaking colloquially, yeah, you’d have to be an idiot. Once a person knows the whole story, I don’t think they’d want to get involved!

    But, that doesn’t mean Bunkerites should abandon basic human decency and treat exes like idiots just for saying they got something positive out of Scientology.

    JohnP has acknowledged that it seems like some people really did experience a benefit. This assumption goes a long way in explaining the “long con” of Scientology.

    It was never my intention to promote Scientology on your blog. Even so, I wish I had a dollar for every time I was called an OSA troll!

    If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn’t lash out or curse those that harass me. After all, they probably thought they were doing what Tony Ortega would want them to.

    You set the tone for your blog. And I enjoy your subtle sarcasm!

    But, when Bunkerites cross the line into blatantly anti-social behavior, I think you should say something about that before it gets out of hand.

    When a person speaks from their own personal experience, you have to respect that. That’s what any decent human being would do. Or you become as bad as the evil thing we are here to criticize.

    I would like to post something. Or not. Your call.

    Peace.

    Love to you and those you love.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you!

    Have a good one, Tony.

    Flunk

    P.S. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites. I will not fight with the other Bunkerites.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Happy Thanksgiving.

  • SignsOfSuccess

    Again, I invite people to read “Introduction to Scientology Ethic” by themselves. As usually Jeff’s interpretation is warped and deliberately misleading.
    For example, there is a considerable difference between what Ron writes in chapter 8 and what he wrote in Chapter 12 on justice and the definition of a suppressive person or group in the that chapter.

    While chapter 8 on the Basics of Suppression can be seen as philosophical data and can be used in life in general or in any field of living regardless it be Scientology or not, the chapter 12 instead, makes reference to
    precise Suppressive Acts (or high crimes) in the precise use of justice IN Scientology! Thus SP declarations within the judicial system of SCN have to do with Suppressive Acts and not with the attributes of the anti-social personality Those two may or may not coincide but this is irrelevant for the purpose of the justice of SCN.

    Fortunately real Scientologists understand what they read and they will swiftly point out all the Jeff’s gross misunderstandings.

    Ron was right when he said that squirrels and “critics” of SCN don’t and never have understood Scientology!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Have a nut.

      • 0tessa

        … and a case.

    • jeff

      You’re just here to make Espiando’s day. It’s really quite kind of you.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Marco is thoughtful, isn’t he?

        • jeff

          I think Tory determined it is actually Bill Yaude, but whoever it is, I can’t wait for Espiando to show his gratitude.

          • D.Y.G.

            Bill Yaude has been declared Suppressive Person by the Church
            4x. Each time he crawls back, begging forgiveness and relentlessly
            does OSA Internet work to “prove” his worth and suck up to them so he
            won’t get declared suppressive person again.

            http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=107818

            • Eclipse-girl

              Doesn’t that behavior make the person a masochist?

            • D.Y.G.

              I would say so!

            • Captain Howdy

              Good job. instead of asking somebody -not that there’s anything wrong with that- you went and found it yourself. That’s how I learned this shit way back when..in 2008.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              How do we know this isn’t just hearsay?

          • stillgrace2

            Tory said TurtleZ was Bill Yaude, too.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Bill must spend a lot of time getting sec checks.
              Maybe he likes them?

            • stillgrace2

              Yes, he enjoys being handled.

            • D.Y.G.

              I wonder how many times you have to be declared before you start thinking “maybe it’s them, not me”.

          • Captain Howdy

            I ‘m pretty sure Tony said it’s Marco. And Yaude always goes back and removes his comments.

            • jeff

              Yeah Tony said that. But Tory Christman (where are your reading glasses?) said it was Yaude, but I’m not really invested in its identity.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Flunk has done that already today. BTN wished Flunk a Happy Thanksgiving

            • Robert Eckert

              If BTN’s reply as well as Flunk’s post is gone, that means Tony did the removal.

            • Eclipse-girl

              NO. BTN’s response was still there. It was how I found out who’s post had been removed.

            • Robert Eckert

              I failed to find it, then.

            • Missionary Kid

              It was Flunk 101. He was apologetic and wished us all a happy thanksgiving.

            • Missionary Kid

              I read Flunk’s now deleted post. He was very apologetic and wished everyone a happy thanksgiving. He ended his post by repeating over and over, in essence, I will not be mean to people on the Bunker.

              It’s Tony’s decision. I tend to be forgiving, but I think Flunk went through the cycle before.

            • Eclipse-girl

              TY for that Info.

            • Captain Howdy

              Man, my throat feels scratchy “cough..boy who cried wolf..cough”. Hope I’m not coming down with something.

          • OrangySky

            If it is Bill Yaude, then he’s in his 60’s, right?
            And he’s still chasing his tail in these nonsensical arguments?
            He’s still sitting around in his pajamas, “Shattering Suppression” on the internetz, while more and more people drop out of his religion, and hundreds of thousands more are made aware of what a criminal organization it belongs to?
            Bill. Life is short. You’ve passed the halfway point.
            At what point is Scientology supposed to start working, again?

            • Missionary Kid

              Did it ever work? Not in the long run.

    • nottrue

      Wowy Zowy

    • tone 3.3

      SignsOfSuccess, that does sound like an interesting distinction.

      To check the chapters you reference, I looked into buying a copy of “Introduction to Scientology Ethics.”

      Unfortunately, the lowest price I could find (2 cents on Amazon.com) is really more than I feel comfortable paying for something written by L Ron Hubbard.

    • Graham

      “real Scientologists understand what they read” Real Scientologists eh.

      Classic use of the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy there Marco. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

      • OrangySky

        Thanks, John P for that chart!

        • Eclipse-girl

          I can’t wait for mine to arrive.

    • Espiando

      Happy Birthday To Me, Happy Birthday To Me, King of Trolls Makes An Appearance, Happy Birthday To Me.

      The only point Ron ever made was with the tip of his sebaceous cyst, you fruit loop. Everything he wrote had one of two purposes: control or obfuscate. That’s why the only parts of the Tech that work are those designed to control others, like the TRs. The ones that obfuscate, specifically anything above Grade IV on either side of the Bridge, are harmful. The OT levels in particular can cause legitimate psychological damage that will take a real mental professional (read: a Psych) years to unravel.

      And you’re actually trying to promote the Scientology (In)Justice system to us? A community of savvy never-ins backed up by the actual life experiences of numerous Exes who were on the sharp, pointy end of that “justice” system? In the same fucking thread that Chuck Beatty, someone who participated on both sides of that system, detailed nicely what that entailed? You’re a fucking idiot.

      Go back to fucking your goats and fuck off. You have my permission, so it won’t be downstat.

      • Missionary Kid

        What Espiando said. Happy birthday Espiando!!!

      • SignsOfSuccess

        As I said: Ron was right!!!

        • Robert Eckert

          And we thought you were just a drive-by today. How kind of you to provide more of your tasty Signs of Suckness for Espiando to chew on!

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            It sort of reminds me of that scene in Rosemary’s Baby when she was eating the raw liver.

            • Espiando

              So why all of a sudden do I want to break out a bottle of nice Chianti while responding to Marco-Turd?

        • Espiando

          A broken analog clock is right twice a day. However, my battery-operated digital satellite-linked clock that cost me $15 at Wal-Mart just came out of nine months of storage, and it’s right on time.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Arf arf arf arf arf arf arf

        • IASREG

          But was David right about you being a Suppressive Person? How can we trust someone who has been declared 4 times? How can we trust anyone who uses exclamation tech in association to Scientology?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! !!!!!

        • Eclipse-girl

          “The most ethical people on the planet” are allowed to behave in an unethical manner when they “Fair Game” people.

          Does anyone else see the irony?

          • OrangySky

            “Ethical” doesn’t mean “moral”, remember. It means “What’s good for Scientology.” So, if that means anything short of (or maybe including?) murder to defend the religion, then that action is “Ethical.”

            There is no such thing as “unethical” unless it’s against Scientology or LRH or Miscavige.
            See, it’s easy-peasy! Kiss your moral dilemmas goodbye!

            • Lurkness

              Including. see R2 45.

            • Cat Daddy

              Canibals can be very ethical if they live by their own moral principles, just saying.

        • Once_Born

          “As I said: Ron was right!!!”

          He was right when he said,
          “Scientology … is not a religion”.
          The Creation Of Human Ability (1954), p. 251 ISBN 0884044300

          Which rather makes you doubt his word regarding… well… everything else.

      • Sibs

        Happy birthday, Espi!

      • joan nieman

        Happy Birthday Espiando! I don’t think SOS will ever ‘ get’ anything. He is simply a ” lost cause’.

    • IASREG

      You yourself have been declared a Suppressive Person several times. Now that COB, David Miscavige has changed Ron’s tech so that you can finally understand it you will be able to clear the planet and put ethics in on all the Wogs! First though, we need that Freeloader debt paid back in full, you need to purchase two new Mark VIII’s, redo your objectives, finish your A-E, purchase some Basics and make an BIG donation to the IAS. START.

    • richelieu jr

      Thanks for the invitation, SOS, but I’ve read it, and I can still smell it from here..
      The distinct odor of sulphur mixed with stale bullshit that means a manifestation of the Hubbard has occurs (or an infestation of the god lens allowed net privileges if they’ll go out and cloud issues on the net.
      What,kind of religion offers on set off rules for everyday life and another for justice? A schizoid trap is which there are a lot of rules and enforcement but no responsibility.
      why not return amongst your ‘real Scientologists’? I” sure both of the’ will be glad to see you came back after dropping your stink bombs…

    • Mark

      • Graham

        Wot Mark said.

      • Cat Daddy

        Depens on what your ethics ARE, L Ron Hubbard was very ethical by his OWN moral principles

      • joan nieman

        Beeeeutiful!!! Ditto Mark!!

    • Captain Howdy

      Marco, if Carmen Rainer and her mom had ignored Jan Eastgate’s instructions and gone to the police to report her step-father for molesting her that would have been a “high crime’ in scientology because the step-father was a member in good standing. This is your idea of “ethics”?

    • Sibs

      I think you’re making a distinction when it’s convenient for you to make a distinction between the two, and that distinction conveniently goes away when someone is declared an SP and it’s okay to make public and embarrassing accusations against the person. How do you rationalize El Ron’s turn-around from “Terms like good and bad, alive and dead, right and wrong, are used only in conjunction with gradient scales” to there only being two types of people – good or bad?

      Happy Thanksgiving to you. I’d hope that you feed your rank and file Sea Ogres a turkey dinner and treat them with kindness and respect, but I hear that kindness and respect are rare in the Sea Org, especially to your underlings.

      • Missionary Kid

        I don’t think I said it before, but I was glad to meet you at TomKat. Your intelligence shine through in person as well on the comments section.

        • Sibs

          Aw, garsh. It’s easier to be intelligent over an internet board because at least I can think harder about my comments before I post them. And edit myself.

          • Missionary Kid

            You must do fast editing in your head when you’re speaking. The editing doesn’t show. Happy thanksgiving!

    • OrangySky

      “Squirrels and critics of SCN don’t and never have understood Scientology”.

      Well, isn’t that convenient!

      Let’s follow your brilliant Hubbardian logic, then:

      No one can understand Scientology but a Scientologist!

      Therefore, no one is qualified to criticize Scientology but a Scientologist!

      BUT – it is a high crime to criticize Scientology!

      Ergo sum – Scientology is beyond all forms of criticism. It is perfect.

      Glad you cleared that up for us all.

      Go eat your turkey-shaped rice and beans.

      • MaxSpaceman

        Now *that,* dear Orangy S, is a real Thanksgiving Treat ~

        Jolly good show !!

      • SignsOfSuccess

        Well, one thing is to criticize something that you understand, another thing is to distort a clear concept. Jeff is not criticizing anything, he is just attacking a subject that he don’t understand.

        • Truthiwant

          I left Scientology because I did understand it in the end. It was the best decision I ever made.
          Leaving Scientology opens up one’s views on all subjects. It also makes you realize how small your views are when you are in and are trying to blow the horn for Scientology as you are doing at this moment.

          • Interested

            I note SOS had not dared answer you! Hugs from me !

            • Truthiwant

              Hugs to you as well!

            • Once_Born

              Well, as we have just learned, “The antisocial cannot finish a cycle of action” – therefore, SOS is suppressive.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              I see what you did there.

          • SignsOfSuccess

            I’m choosing to stay in SCN because I understand it and it empower me.
            Age-old problems like war, insanity and crime are confronted and addressed by SCN in a way that I know I can participate in, and WILL have a broadly positive result.
            I believe that those that state otherwise have either never taken an honest look at Scientology, or are blinded by their own ignorance or crimes to even its most basic principles.
            You are free to disagree, but you are not free to attack what I and other millions of individuals makes enjoying the richness of life because we look at life through the eyes of a Scientologist;
            You don’t have to like Scientology, ( SCN is not for everybody) but at least respect it.
            Happy Thanksgiving to all.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Respect it? Nope! Not gonna happen.
              You can give that ghost up right now.
              But Happy Thanksgiving anyway.

            • Missionary Kid

              So, can you give an example of a war stopped? If the tech is so powerful, why are we here?
              Your definition of crimes is a self serving one: whatever is against Co$. They’re not prosecutable by any international standards.

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              If you think empowerment is isolation from the rest of us, fuzzy thinking and repetition of dogma, the hats (non scieno hats) off to you. I absolutely believe that people are free to believe what they want. I do not accept that child slavery, mind control,real estate scams, bullying and tax scams are ethical in any sense of the word. I cannot respect any small group (25,000) that wreaks havoc on any working model of family or community.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              Don’t believe everything you read or hear. SCN is totally something else than a ” small group (25,000) that wreaks havoc on any working model of family or community.”.

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              That is sound advice – do not believe everything you read or hear. However, if you read extensively and listen well, as I do, the odds are good you will arrive at a sound conclusion. Censorship of information flow, throughout history, has only come to a bad end. I genuinely feel compassion for you in the sincerity of your beliefs, however much I disagree with them. Stay on this site. Read with eyes, mind and heart. You’ll get it.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              I already got it:

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              Then for Christ’s sake, get rid of it!. You are thinking so wrong-headedly. None of us has ‘got it’. Life is a journey, we are learning ALL the time. Look at Nature, our creator. Where do you see stasis?
              Can you see the potential trouble it might get you in to, AT ANY AGE, to decide you have ‘made up your mind’? That just closes your mind. Does that sound smart to you? Our minds and our free will are what separate us from the animal kingdom. Please don’t waste yours. Maybe just read Aesop’s Fables as a primer?

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              I don’t know how old you are so I’ll indulge for another minute or
              two. What are these rumours of which you speak? That an alien being is
              in charge of the whole damn thing called life? That there is an
              organized plan – alien or otherwise – behind the chaos of everyday life
              everywhere on the Planet. Those are’nt rumours. Everywhere on the Globe
              and right in your own backyard, people are struggling with man’s
              inhumanity to man. If there was ‘an answer’ a dictat, children would not
              be starving, the earth would not be daily ravaged and polluted by money
              driven poor thinkers. Your ‘religion’ has had a good period of time now
              to show us why we should support it. Setting aside that the basic
              premise is science-fiction, what good have you done? Have you fed the
              hungry, housed the homeless, educated the ignorant, cured the sick?

              Of course I am a fool. We all are at times. Makes me laugh at myself. Idiot? Nope.

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              ps. About Hate. Disgreement is not hate. Banter is not hate. Hate is destructive. Hampering young minds and bodies is hateful by definition. Non maintenance of Heritage buildings is hateful. Extorting well-meaning people of their resources is hateful. Breaking up families and friends is hateful. Using the American taxpayer to support nefarious corporate gain is hateful.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              “what good have you done? Have you fed the hungry, housed the homeless, educated the ignorant, cured the sick?”

              YES, Scientologists do those things every day.

            • Missionary Kid

              Bullshit. Where have they done this without “fair exchange?” You lie as much as the church, don’t you?

            • Once_Born

              Hubbard tells us that “The anti-social person, the anti-Scientologist […] speaks only in very broad generalities”, and your statement that “[…] Scientologists do these things every day” is very broad and general.

              Can you please give specific examples of times when Scientologists have fed the hungry? Just so we can sure that you are not behaving like an anti-scientologist.

              I hope that you will at least acknowledge this communication because, as we both know, “The antisocial cannot finish a cycle of action” – therefore not providing a reasonable reply would be unethical by your own standards.

              When and where do Scientologists feed the hungry?

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              Can you provide facts for any of that? Where are your soup kitchens? You have empty buildings with people sleeping on nearby streets. Your whole system is based on KEEPING people ignorant. You have amassed alleged billions of dollars of assets which you put to no good use. Touch assists? Can.Not.Go.There.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              When have YOU done those things? we want details.
              When have you done any of this for your fellow man?

              Touch assist’s don’t count……….because they don’t work, you silly Sciloon.

            • Lurkness

              Are you quoting Scientology’s current SP policy of unwritten declares and distribution by rumor?

            • Lurkness

              Exactly. They have told you there are millions of members. Not true.. Where are they?

            • Truthiwant

              As an ex-Scientologist I just can NOT respect Scientology because it has done too much harm to me and many others. I don’t want to generalize here but if you want I can list you a number of personal tragedies and you don’t need to go far to find out other people’s stories. You know them anyway but probably prefer to disbelieve them.
              If you are happy as a Scientologist, then that is fine with me. Just do NOT try to get other people involved or do anything against any other person’s freedom of thought to meet your agenda.
              Happy Thanksgiving to you.

            • Lurkness

              Happy Thanksgiving to you too. You might want to use those eyes to look. They have lied to you that there millions of members. No where close. Let’s be generous on the numbers here, but you should know there are way less than 50,000 active scientologists worldwide. Shouldn’t that be an outpoint for you?

            • Espiando

              Name one war Scientology has helped prevent or stop.

              Name one breakthrough in “insanity” that Scientology has initiated. We’re talking treatment here, not creating a museum claiming that psychiatrists initiated the Holocaust.

              Name one bit of crime that Scientology has helped prevent. Did Scientology help that Scientologist in Joburg who was killed in a random act of street crime (and prompted the even bigger crime of creating the Joburg Idle Morgue)? Did Scientology stop Psycho Bitch in Chicago from attempting to assault my old protest buddy Strong Strength? No, in fact, Scientology initiated that, because Psycho Bitch took umbrage at a protest sign.

              You’re deluding yourself.

              And, no, I’m not going to respect Scientology. Scientology wants to take away the psych drugs that make my life a better place to be, and, not to be satisfied, they want to eliminate me, quietly and without sorrow, because of the gender with whom I participate in 2D activities. I’m fighting for my life. An enemy needs to gain respect, and you’ve done nothing to do so in my mind. So it’s to the death with you, since it’s either you or me, and it’s not going to be me.

              Go to hell, goat-fucker.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              Don’t you have better things to do on your birthday than complaining and whimpering all day long about SCN?
              For what i can take any psychotropic drugs you wish, aren’t they well fit for psychotic anyway? And frankly I don’t give a shit if you enjoy to take it in your a***.

            • Once_Born

              I thought you were here to help us see the light, and then, despite having Scientology on your side, you suddenly become violently abusive…

              Wait a minute… didn’t Ron say, “Helping others is an activity which drives the antisocial personality nearly berserk…”

              Be careful. You could get yourself declared. Again.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              “Again”

              Lol

            • SignsOfSuccess

              Well, when it’s due, it’s due.

            • Once_Born

              Now you are ignoring my communication (by changing the subject) and failing to complete another cycle. Can you please be an ethical Scientologist and:

              1) Stop speaking in generalities
              2) Complete our previous cycle of communication by telling me when and where Scientologists feed the hungry.

              If you could just tell us this, it would get you out of your ethical difficulties and make everyone here feel much better about Scientology.

              Did you know that many of us have been told that Scientologists would never do charitable works, like feeding the hungry, because they believe it would be “out exchange”, and actually bad for the recipient?

            • SignsOfSuccess

              “Did you know that many of us have been told that Scientologists would never do charitable works, like feeding the hungry, because they believe it would be “out exchange”, and actually bad for the recipient?”

              LOL that’ so stupid. There are more than 200.000 registered VMs around the globe.

            • Robert Eckert

              Even if we believed that number (which vastly exceeds the total number of Scientologists), that would not be relevant to the question. Can you show us a single example of a Volunteer Minister feeding the hungry? We can link you to reports of VM’s coming in to a disaster area without any supplies for themselves, so that they actively took food away from the hungry.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              For example JT has flown a boeing full of food and medical supply. That is well documented.

            • Missionary Kid

              What medical supplies? When was the food distributed to anything but Co$ workers, and on what date and where?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Documented, eh? So was JT’s loaning his plane to track down a blown Annie Broker so she could be brought back to Gold and kept under David Miscaviges tiny thumb.

            • Missionary Kid

              So, when did the VMs feed the hungry?
              Why are you here? This is an “entheta” site. We don’t believe your lies and generalities.

            • Once_Born

              200,000 VMs!- have any of them fed the hungry? – and if so, when and where?

              BTW, you still haven’t completed our communications cycle and answered my question, which is, “When and where do Scientologists feed the hungry”. Surely, with 2000,000 Volunteer Ministers you have some evidence of this.

              I’m beginning to think VMs are just a publicity stunt, and we don’t want that, do we?

            • Lurkness

              Who TOLD you there are 200,000 registered VM’s? Have you seen the list in writing? Group photo?

              If you looked, you would know that who ever said that is lying. If it were true, how come apparently only 5 VMs could be mustered for the tragic and devastating typhoon in the Philippines?

              LOOK here for the VM email update and VM photo: http://www.mikerindersblog.org/what-your-ias-donations-buy-update-on-vms-in-philippines/

              One VM disaster junkie, does not a 200,000 strong relief force make. See also the IAS regging for itself and not the victims here: http://www.mikerindersblog.org/philippines-update-donate-now-but-dont-tell-razzline/

            • Once_Born

              Feel my finger…

            • Verve

              Muppet, show me a list of these 200,000 V(irtual)Ms.
              And stop ignoring Once_Burn and actually answer the questions. Your misdirections are so blatant as to laughable.

            • Once_Born

              “[…] you are not free to attack what I and other millions of individuals makes enjoying the richness of life because we look at life through the eyes of a Scientologist;”

              Unlike yourself, we are free to attack Scientology, and to question the value of what you think and believe. If you don’t think so, watch us doing it, and learn.

              You have to earn respect by actually doing things that deserve respect – and don’t do that by believing absurd things. Perhaps you could make a start by answering a question I have asked in response to another of your comments – when and where do Scientologists feed the hungry?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              60 years on and Scientology hasn’t stopped insanity, wars or crime. Not even a tiny bit.

              It is a complete/total/absolute FAILURE.

              2+2=4.

              Not 2+2=5, or 3, or eleventy billion.

              You have been lied to and you most likely really could use some serious help from ebil Psyche’s and maybe even big fucking pharma.

            • OrangySky

              “Age-old problems like war, insanity and crime are confronted and
              addressed by SCN in a way that I know I can participate in, and WILL
              have a broadly positive result.”

              And how is that working for you, SoS? 60 years and how far has Scientology addressed and confronted war, insanity and crime?
              Especially with a rapidly dwindling population?

              When does Scientology actually begin to take effect? 80 years? 200 years?

              And sorry, I have every right not to respect Scientology. I don’t respect criminals. And while you and your fellow every day Scientologists may be good people, you are supporting a criminal, fraudulent organization that violates the basic human rights of hundreds every day.

              I don’t respect those who don’t respect me. And your glib, generic, pre-programmed responses show you have no respect for any of us on this blog. You’re only here to agitate and bring your stats up.

              Happy Thursday. Hope it worked.

            • Verve

              “…what I and other millions of individuals…”

              Bwahahahahaha!

              http://www.netanimations.net/Cute-bright-eyed-monkey-getting-down-to-some-wicked-tunes.gif

        • Missionary Kid

          Now that you supposedly understand $cientology, when are you going to blow?

        • OrangySky

          FLUNK. You just essentially repeated what you said before.
          It’s YOUR definition that it’s a “clear concept.”

          By your definition, not interpreting it YOUR way means that the critic is unclear and doesn’t understand.
          That means there is only one way to interpret it – YOUR way.
          That means it is always right.
          See my argument above.
          YOU FLUNK TWICE.

    • Noni Mause

      It’s usually Jeffersons posts that bring you here, SOS. You guys really do not like him. Can you explain to me how Jefferson could possibly ‘misunderstand’ the material after 35 years in Scientology where he went through rigorous study tech, modelling concepts, getting approval from supervisors re his understanding of those concepts before being able to move up a level? Misunderstanding the ‘tech’ just isn’t an option that’s allowed in Scientology is it?

      • SignsOfSuccess

        Yes it seems a little strange but that’s the way it is…unless he is deliberately twisting data for purposes we clearly know.

        • OrangySky

          Yes, purposes you clearly know. Because I’m sure he’s built a financial empire on criticizing Scientology. It’s a very lucrative field, as I’ve heard. Did you know Tony Ortega owns several yachts and a 43-room historical mansion in Greenwich?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Sigh, my heart goes out to you.
          You coming here does nothing but steel the resolve of this community against Scientology.
          You are a perfect example of how Scientology destroys a human being and his ability to think critically, and more important, logically.

          Frankly, I enjoy having you around to poke at once in awhile as it is nice entertainment and also because I love to watch Espi work. But in all honesty, I have a hard time understanding why you continue to do it.
          Do you feel a sense of worth when coming here?
          Do you feel part of our group?
          What is in it for you (or Scientology)?
          Don’t you realize it is counter productive?

          I would invite you over and feed you a fabulous Thanksgiving dinner and then let you sleep on my sofa for the next twelve hours…but that would be out exchange, so enjoy your beans.

          • Truthiwant

            Maybe it’s me but SoS sounds today a little less dedicated to what he is trying to teach us.

          • Graham

            “Frankly, I enjoy having you around to poke at once in awhile”. We all know he’s here to troll, but most of the time it feels like we’re trolling him. As you say, it is a bit puzzling as to why he does it.

        • Truthiwant

          OK.
          Now show us that you are a good Scientologist.
          Today we are discussing the anti-social attributes and one of these is ‘talking in generalizations’. Right?
          Well your comment “twisting data for purposes we clearly know” to me is a bit too generalized. Personally I have no idea what “we clearly know” means as I do not know. Please, as a good ethical Scientologist, specify what you are saying.

          • SignsOfSuccess

            We = good ethical Scientologists.

            • Truthiwant

              Great. You are all ethical. Now answer my question.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              “Today we are discussing the anti-social attributes and one of these is ‘talking in generalizations’. Right?”

              Nope, today you are discussing Jeff’s opinion of how Hubbard controls his brainwashed disciples”. That’s what you guys are actually discussing and it has nothing to do with Hubbard’s real philosophical view on Ethics.

            • Truthiwant

              OK. Now, can you please answer my question.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              “revenge and personal interest”

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              “how Hubbard controls his brainwashed disciples”

              You hit the nail right on the head. I’m glad you have come to a cognition of what is happening in Scientology.

            • Espiando

              Okay, we can always switch the subject. We can discuss Hubtard’s real philosophical views on gay people. I believe his solution was “eliminate, quietly and without sorrow”. If you don’t want to do that, we can discuss his real philosophical views on women and minorities. Oh, we can discuss a lot of things that you’re not going to like, goat-fucker.

            • Once_Born

              I don’t know why, but I find misuse of the words, ‘philosophical’ and ‘philosophy’ really annoying.

              The study of real philosophy provides the critical tools that enable people to take inadequate ideas and arguments apart – for example the mistaken and incoherent ‘doctrines’ of Scientology.

              Perhaps this is why so many cults have to redefine the word ‘philosophy’ to mean ‘stuff our guru just made up’ – they don’t want any of their members knowing about the real thing. If they did, they might start asking awkward questions.

            • Espiando

              Of which there are…oh, let’s see, none.

        • Noni Mause

          Signs, I want to get this right…. If Jefferson has truly misunderstood the material, then that means all those study tech methods etc don’t work. You get that, right? Claiming someone with 35 years worth of following Scientology procedures has misunderstood something is an indictment of the SYSTEM, not the individual. E.g. How could he have gotten that far without getting picked up for the misunderstanding? The system is so strict and with so much redundancy built in that it just would not be able to happen.

          If by misunderstand you mean ‘deliberately twist’ then you need to be upfront and say so the first time.

        • splog

          You do know that Jefferson is the very person who got DMSMH back on the New York Times bestseller list in th 80s for 2 straight years, right? A feat never before or since equalled by anyone.

          If anyone knows how Scientology works, it’s Jefferson.

          But I have two questions for you:

          1. My name is Alan. What’s your’s?
          2. International management does not exist anymore, no-one is on post. Why is that?

          • SignsOfSuccess

            1) No Jefferson is NOT the very person who got DMSMH back on the NYT bestsellers.
            It was a team’s effort and Jeff played a moderate part in it.
            2) No, If Jeff really knew how SCN works, he would have handled his out-ethics in a standard way and he would have been out of the S.O without an SP declare. Instead he decided to run away like a coward and leaving his wife shocked!

            • Graham

              He was ‘in’ for thirty five years yet he still didn’t know how SCN works. Do you not realise that this says more about Scientology than it does about him? One of the boasts Scientology makes is that it will improve your ability to communicate yet it couldn’t get it’s true message over to Jeff after 35 years? How could Scientology fail so comprehensively?

            • splog

              haha, how true. This is probably the biggest footbullet any still-in can ever make:

              Marty, Mike, Karen, Jeff, Leah, Sam, Garcia, Clair, Marc, Mayo, Broeker – they are all whole track SPs!

              Trouble is, all of those have hundreds of years experience together. More than half are OT V or higher. One is a Class XII C/S personally trained by Hubbard himself (there were only ever 7 of those), and one recovered Tom Cruise back into the church in 2003. Another saved Hubbard’s life and developed NOTs as a result.

              And all of them are SPs. Not once in all those years did the Tech detect that they were SPs – the infallible always correct Tech that never fails when applied standardly (see KSW1 and lecture Standard tech Defined). If they were PS then ethics was out, admin ceased to function and Tech was long gone in their personal area. And the infallible E-Meter that never lies with the razor sharp Sec Checking and FPRD Tech not once ever showed they were SPs. A true SP doesn’t make case gain, gets no TA on the meter and seldom FNs when appropriate but does Rock Slam often on key questions; and yet this was never detected. One even managed to fool Hubbard himself and a whole track SP got trained to C/S all three Ls!

              Gee, I dunno, I’m confused. What do you think?

            • Espiando

              So, Jeff playing a “moderate part” is now the official line, huh? Well, let me ask you this, goat-diddler: if Jeff played such an insignificant part in getting Hubtard’s out-of-date-when-he-wrote-it paean to misogyny back on the NYT list, how come all of the other non-SPs on the ASI “team” haven’t been able to match his accomplishment, or for that matter, come close to it?

              Jeff Hawkins was the guy responsible for it. Those TV ads have never been matched by anything in your cult. That Super Bowl commercial looked downright primitive compared to Jeff’s Dianetics ads, and those are now thirty years old.

              You keep trying to Dead Agent Jeff over here. You keep realizing that it’s not working. But you’re going to keep doing it, just like you keep fucking your goats, because you don’t know any better. If you’re an ad for the benefits of Scientology, you’ve definitely turned more people off than on. Like, at a 100000 turn-off to 0 turn-on ratio. And, yes, that means that you’ve divided by zero. Get flushed into non-existence.

            • Graham

              “You keep realizing that it’s not working. But you’re going to keep doing it”

              Well you know the $cientology motto: If what you’re doing doesn’t work, do more of it.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Espi, sometimes, after one of your rants,….I would love to have a cigarette….and I don’t even smoke.

            • splog

              Please expand on these statements by giving specifics (time, place, form, event as best you understand it) as to exactly what Jefferson’s moderate role was in the DMSMH evolution. Include the sources of your information. I’ll start by including mine – Jefferson himself in his own words on his own blog. Now admittedly, he could be biased toward himself (who isn’t to some degree?) but his words ring true. I have one other source too – a personal friend who was there at the time, holding the post of LRH PPRO Int. I want to give you the opportunity to prove Jefferson wrong is he is indeed wrong, but please do answer with facts. You know how to do this as Scientology is the science of knowing how to know and deals solely in truth. Mechanically this equals time,place, form and event.

              You have a history of avoiding the hard questions that require factual answers. By your answer to this post, all here will be able to assess your position and whether you speak with a degree of authority or not. We will also be able to see if you are willing to engage in meaningful debate. This should not present you with any problem at all, you are obviously an experienced Scientologist, have had personal wins and experience in auditing and have full conceptual understand of time, place, form, event and how to fully answer an auditing question (although I am not auditing you now)

            • Sandy

              Well, sir. I rarely give down votes. Ignoring posts I disagree with is more my style. But, this post is such an grievous insult to Mr. Hawkins that I can not be silent. Shame on you. If you do not know Mr. Hawkins story, admit it. Do not insult the man like that.

              In other words, you just really pissed me off!

        • Missionary Kid

          As usual, you confuse “data” with the word “information.”

          • Casabeca

            Hi MK, just an off post note.
            Thank you for always being kind, open minded and helpful to new people around here.
            I appreciate you!

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, but not always. I am not kind to trolls. Of course, sometimes it takes me a while to figure out that’s what they are.

              I appreciate you, too.

    • i-Betty

      Oh my. Happy Thanksgiving, SoS. Send up an SOS as soon as you’re ready and we’ll send someone to come fish you out of that toxic pool you’re swimming in. Have a nice day.

    • gobsmackedby Scieno

      There is absolutely no logical thread in your argument. This seems typical of Scieno-think. Those of us in the ‘outside world’ from Scieno understand what ethics mean, usually from childhood guidance by responsible adults who want us to live comfortably in the world.Often our ethical sense is more highly developed by making or observing mistakes and seeing the consequences of unethical behavour. And btw there are billions of us on this planet – who asked you and your bunch of unmerry men to ‘clear’ it? Paul Bunyan?

    • Verve

      Hi muppet, what if we want to read it in a group? You’re not inviting us to a group read? Bummer.

  • Chocolate Velvet

    Happy Thanksgiving to you Tony, and to all those in the Bunker who are celebrating the day! To everyone else, I wish you the joy of the season!

    I am thankful that I get to watch this crazy cult with all of you., through the window of this blog and Tony’s excellent reporting. It’s been a good year so far, with lots of great stories and surprising turns. And it ain’t over yet! 🙂

    Much love to you all from the Chocolate Velvet!

    • Casabeca

      And happy day and joy to you too :-).

  • Snake Plissken

    “Pouw said Scientology has 10,000 adherents in the Philadelphia area”

    I almost shot coffee out of my nose … that is pure comedy gold right there, if nothing else, Scientologists do bring the lulz

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Is 10,000 the new 19?

      • OrangySky

        Ha ha D3!

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          I love that so many in the Bunker got this comment with no further explanation necessary!

    • Captain Howdy

      Maybe she’s counting NOI members also.

      • D.Y.G.

        I know for sure there aren’t 10,000 NOI in Philly.

    • aurora50

      Out of curiosity, I just took a quick peek at the main CoS website…it is way behind the times…no mention of the Clearwater events, nothing to look forward to in 2014, still has Phila on the list of openings for 2013…very stale.

  • jeff

    Scientology makes an appearance in the Macy’s parade

    • D.Y.G.

      Oh yeah! On a skateboard no less.

    • richelieu jr

      Don’t tell me they’ve roped in Bullwinkle!
      I mean, I knew. Rocky was going through a hard patch, but….

  • Qbird

    Cheers to all – this day and every day too.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Yeah! Good to see a post from you!

    • GlibWog

      HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHahahhahahha OMG that is truly Squirrel Tech at it’s finest.. Happy T day to you too Q.

  • richelieu jr

    Turkey Day!
    Yet another reason for Miscavige to watch his back!

    I always knew he was full of something, but stuffing?
    Any guesses as to the ingredients?

    B.S.
    A lock of red hair
    Children’s tears
    Empty boxes of Extenz, angrily ripped open
    Botox syringes
    …?

  • richelieu jr

    Was it Jon Atack or Jefferson who told them he was PTs to Miscavige?

    I’d like to strike a Bunker Medal of Valour for that alone. A trophy in the form of two huge, hanging balls of steel.

    • Espiando

      Well, Jon said that he was PTS to Scientology in general, not necessarily to DM in particular. Of course, Jon followed that up by writing the truly glorious declare on the Toxic Midget.

    • Truthiwant

      I thought it was Jon Atack PTS to Hubbard.

  • baddog5623

    Scientology’s Philadelphia Experiment

    • ze moo

      That was about invisibility, right? How will we know if they achieve true invisibility?

  • Here’s my thoughts on Jeff’s insightful comments: if one separates the organization from the mix (i.e., their agenda to justify their actions using LRH to front for them) and takes the Anti-social Personality essay at face value one sees that there are certain types in the society who fit the bill. Charles Manson and David Miscavige come to mind immediately. And as it relates to disconnection, well, those two SHOULD be disconnected from the rest of society for society’s own good. See, this stuff does have value! (See you Sunday, Jeff!)

  • deathtoallpoliticians

    hands down, the best quickie synopsis of the ideal org program that i have had the pleasure to read. excellent analysis and writing, mr. ortega. looking forward to the next (as always). cheers!

  • Deimos

    Happy Thanksgiving ex-colonial brethren !
    One thing we can all be thankful for – we aren’t COB.

    And a little non denominational prayer, may all the disconnection victims be reconnected by the next thanksgiving.
    Joy to you all, I’m sat watching the puppies sleep with my avatar and her husband is asleep on my knee.
    Life is good

    • Eclipse-girl

      Warm and cuddly.

      When do you start the training with the families?

      • Deimos

        Just before or after Christmas, at the moment I’m trying to break up a 3 way tail biting fight.
        It looks like Care Bears at war. And now they are all asleep in a puppy pile.

        And I’m falling asleep too.

        See you all tomorrow

        • Eclipse-girl

          Sweet dreams.

    • D.Y.G.

      OMG baby dogs!!!!

  • Ribald

    The Ideal Org strategy is a spectacular failure in so many ways.

    There are the obvious harms to average Scientologists due to the excessive fundraising, and the resulting dread of attending any future Scientology events. Broke and fearful parishioners aren’t ideal at all.

    But on an architectural basis, these are the wrong kind of buildings. Scientology can’t stand on its own because LRH was such a terrible writer and thinker. You need other people to glad-hand and love-bomb the parishioners in to accepting the dreck. By spreading what few staff you have throughout a cavernous building, the essential element in the con – the human element – is diluted. The spaces will all seem dead.

    Really, they should aim for tiny spaces to concentrate their staff, and make things appear busy. Good thing Miscavige is so ineffectual.

    • Missionary Kid

      Shock and horror!! How in the world could DM, the king of the footbullet be ineffectual? [Snark].

  • scnethics

    There is so much nuance to Hubbard’s control system. Thanks once again, Jefferson, for making this so interesting and pointing out things that I’ve never thought of before. These articles are therapeutic.

    The “12 characteristics” are presented as a discovery, and of course have nothing to do with any discovery.

    They provide a reverse blueprint for the follower to negate against in molding their own behavior to suit the cult. Share only good news, especially about all the gains you have from your auditing (because of course you are having gains). Don’t ever spread a “rumor”, such as an eye-witness report unfavorable to Hubbard or scientology. Just be happy all the time and talk about “theta” stuff, and be wary of people who do otherwise.

    I think he also wanted to give followers a definition of an evil person, so that if they ran across information about “psychopaths” or “sociopaths”, they would feel like they already understood that phenomenon and wouldn’t look further. You wouldn’t want people looking for a real sociopath in scientology!

    And for someone with enough integrity to say that auditing isn’t working for them and they think it’s a bunch of hooey, well they’ve just displayed characteristics 2, 4, 6, 9, 10, and 11 all at once. Find evidence for one of the other characteristics and you’ll get broad agreement among the group that this is an SP, and a one-way ticket back to wog-ville for that highly undesirable group member.

  • Eclipse-girl

    I asked this before, now it is lost

    Are the properties that are purchased for Idle (M)Orgues subject to property tax? They are unoccupied and not used for “religious purpose.”

    • MaxSpaceman

      nope, no taxes. they are purchased by a “religion”

      • Eclipse-girl

        They are the “biggest taxpayers” in Clearwater. I thought that only areas used for study, and auditing are exempt from taxes, but the book shop or restaurants are subject to property tax.

        The (M)Orgues are not occupied. There is no “religious purpose” to claim an exemption.

        • MaxSpaceman

          When the Catholic Church or any recognized religion purchases a property, whether it sits fallow or is used for the religion’s purposes, they do not pay property taxes. Check with you City/ County.

          • Missionary Kid

            Is that a result of state law? If so, it can vary from state to state.

            • MaxSpaceman

              The religious exemption on property taxes is a benefit from their IRS recognition, Once the cherch of $cientology became an officially recognized religion, the property tax issue disappeared. They do not pay property tax in any municipality in any state (US).

          • Eclipse-girl

            I hope both Chicago and Philly can get some money back for causing Urban blight.

            I wish some of these cities could take over such properties due to eminent domain, but then they have to pay the property owned a fair market price and have an intended use for the property.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Your reasoning is why those cities will not enact imminent domain. Chicago and Philly are not getting 1 penny property tax from miscavage’s “religion” for those idol morgue properties. No matter how many years they remain un-renovated.

          • Eclipse-girl

            In Wisconsin, there were two recent exemptions granted to both the Presbyterians and the Catholics. In Madison each denomination built apartments on land they owned. The apartment buildings were subject to property tax, until the state legislators stepped in and granted the exemptions.

            • MaxSpaceman

              A religion is not going to get property tax exemption on investing in sub-divisions, apt. buildings, etc. *Only* by state leggies stepping in did those religions get exempted in WI. If it had been a big, fat, expensive piece of property in Madison, purchased as a church building, there would be no property tax exacted upon the religion by the City.

            • Eclipse-girl

              What prevents religions from owning office buildings?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Nothing.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Investment income real estate is taxable. That’s why the religions in Madison had to petition the legislature for an exemption. In WI, the state legislature chose to grant a exemption for the apts. EDIT: if the building had been a church, the property tax exemption would’ve been automatic.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I am puzzled and angry that a building can be closed, rotting, and a religion can claim that it is for religious purposes, and therefore avoid property tax.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Well, Egirl, in municipalities, the cherch has bought a building, whose purpose is to be a cherch of $cientology Inc. Therefore, the seller is happy and the municipality can do nothing but take the property off the tax rolls. Every single time. Every single ‘cherch’.

            • Eclipse-girl

              TY for taking the time to have this discussion. I still think it is wrong.

              Prior to this discussion, I had come to the opinion that no religion should have tax exempt property. it would help out a number of municipalities. This discussion did not change my opinion.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Oh, E-girl, you are not alone in that opinion!!!

              It’s a huge loss to society, for the citizens of any municipality, in each city, town, village, municipality, where religions own property.

              Evangelical hustlers like Tammy Fay Bake and Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggart or Oral Roberts, who was “healing” people through their television sets – that their greedy enterprises can buy and be exempt is like angina time for me, and for millions of people.

            • gobsmackedby Scieno

              I also wonder about a cherch having huge empty buildings when their neighbours are sleeping on the streets.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              They could care less about anyone but themselves.

            • Sandy

              Great point. The Phili bldg is 15 floors of empty! It gets cold in PA!

            • Sandy

              Wait. ground floor for a small, nice lobby for COS. Second floor for a heated place for folks. Or, 2nd floor for men & 3rd floor for women & children. Heating costs? They gotta keep at least enuff heat on to keep the pipes from freezing. Any reason this can’t happen?

  • MaxSpaceman

    Terrific Tony O report on The Cult of $cientology’s Idol Morgue program. The picture is a shot from the thriving idol morgue in Switzerland, Basel that is. The Website is the comprehensive report on all idol morgues world wide. http://idleorgs.com/

  • OrangySky

    Woke up this morning and couldn’t believe our TonyO put together such an outstanding blog post ON A MAJOR HOLIDAY, of all things! Thanks Tony, and thanks Jefferson Hawkins!

    Jefferson’s analysis are always so well-argued and insightful. And logical. I’ve noticed that Indies or almost-outs over on Mike and Marty’s blogs seem to be profoundly affected by his observations. They’re not shutting them out anymore – they’re struggling to reconcile how on the nose they are with the need to hold on to the “rightness” of the tech of Scientology (and/or Hubbard.) There’s a lot of “yes…but” going on. But this is a good sign. Jefferson is compassionately and intelligently helping people to see and understand often painful truths.

    This always gets me, though:

    “Positioning it as a “new technical breakthrough” and convincing Scientologists that these people had a clinical, pathological condition which made them evil — rooted, of course, in whole-track implants — was a
    stroke of genius. Now there was a technical reason to hate and avoid them.”

    There’s that pesky “tech” again…the result of all LRH’s “research” and his “breakthroughs.”

    Never mind that he never produced any evidence of research or studies, EVER.

    Wow. What a scammer.

    Happy Thanksgiving, all. Lovin’ the Bunkerites…here’s to the REAL ‘bridge to Freedom’ – FACTS, INFORMATION and KNOWLEDGE! (and not ‘knowledge’ as defined by ‘books written by this one chubby guy”…)

    xo

  • Noni Mause

    Jefferson comments that this policy was written at a time of splinter groups etc. so much of what I see in Scientology seems to be there to protect its customer base. Anything that could undercut the potential numbers of people entering or remaining in the Co$ is dealt with ruthlessly. So there’s another group that does what we do but they say better? Well don’t be fooled, because they’re evil and just want to suppress you. Your sister is disaffected by years of few gains for large amounts of money and wants you to get out with her? Simple – she’s SP – disconnect. A journalist has written things to warn people away from the group? Destroy them! Protect the customer base at all costs. The irony is, of course, that these things ultimately drive people away. A wise woman once said – the more you tighten your grip, the more (worlds) will slip through your fingers. (Princess Leia). I guess El Ron wasn’t interested in spending money on somebody else’s version of science fiction or he might have taken note.

  • media_lush

    Hey LA SP’s, time for a confront….?

    • GlibWog

      Come on Ben.. I thought he was smarter than that..

      Do your damn research like the rest of us.. for God’s sake..

      • Miss Tia

        wonder if stiller has a twitter….hmmmm……

        • GlibWog

          Crank it up baby ….. Hi Tia Maria… xoxoxoxo happy t day xoxo Baby

          • Miss Tia

            i’ll check that out in the morning!! 🙂 I was happy to see about your day!! ((HUGS))

            • GlibWog

              Thanks Tia.. xoxoxoxo What is the update with your friend’s doggy?

              OH go to bed honey.. I just read that you were sending your ass to bed.. love me..

            • Miss Tia

              Thanks for asking!!! He got home Wednesday after staying all night Tuesday after surgery. Groggy, in pain, has to wear the cone of shame though Eddie has it off him if he’s around him and Hammie is asleep. He can’t walk on it more than 5-10 minutes at once a day and must be leashed to go potty and he has to carry him up/down the 2 steps up/down. He’s on pain meds and Eddie said Hammie went to roll over in his sleep and just started yelping in pain and he had just gently move him and couldn’t of course touch that leg but he felt helpless. Here’s Hammie. His surgery was on the back leg you see shaved, the incision was just a few inches and I guess the tendon needed a lot of repairing. Eddie’s been fixing him steak every day.

            • GlibWog

              Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww poor baby Hammie.. what a beautiful dog.. he looks stoned.. I am sorry that he is in pain..

              Eddie sounds like such a caring man. You can judge a person on how they treat their pet.. Steak..awwwww You are a doll Tia.. I know you are hurting for Hammie too…

              You guys are just Hammie’s Life force right now.. smooches and hugs from a dog nut!

            • Miss Tia

              yeah, Hammie is pretty stoned on pain meds…..poor guy….his little sister Persephone (not blood sister, but you know, they ARE family nonetheless) was just lost when he was overnight in the hospital and Eddie said she’s just sort of staying by Hammie now…..

              Here’s a pix of Luci-fur who passed away in Eddie’s house fire 🙁

              https://twitter.com/misstia/status/172170744443314176

            • GlibWog

              Awww so absolutely gorgeous Luci-Fur beautiful..What a tragic story… Tragic..

              Yep.. our pets give us so much pleasure and when they are gone.. just so painful.. I am sorry.. sigh

            • Miss Tia

              I should have posted this instead of the pix…..i made a video for them—the 4 lost…had to put it on vimeo cuz for some reason bob dylan doesn’t want his music used by others on youtube….eddie wanted this song used……

              In Loving Memory of Layla, Luci-fur, Grape Juice and Loner from miss tia on Vimeo.

            • Miss Tia

              and in case embed vimeo is a pain…. https://vimeo.com/37898625

            • GlibWog

              OK.. tears are flowing..What a touching..precious tribute you paid to your fur babies.. absolutely touched my heart..The music..

              OMG just perfect.. Just so grateful that you shared with us.. I know you miss them. Shit I miss them all and I never met them.. You are a good person Ms Tia Maria.. I just love you.. Baby

            • Miss Tia

              Yeah, those were Eddie’s furbabies (he’s my BFF, like my brother) but I they were like my family too…..they’re all buried together in my yard…..when i was painting eddie’s new place—he was working 12 hour shifts 7 days at the time so i did all the cleaning, painting, etc i know i SAW Luci-fur out on the front sidewalk pacing, like she was waiting for the place to be done…..his new place is around the corner from where the house that burned down was…..i have no doubt they’re there with him in spirit……

              the next night, about 24 hours at the time they probably passed away (it was smoke inhalation, the vet said it would have been within 2 breaths), i mean around the EXACT time, like 10:20pm, i was sitting here still in shock trying to make lists of everything (he needed everything replaced) and my power went out for like one second and my 2 dogs started HOWLING which they don’t normally do and i went downstairs and they were both on the dining room window seat facing where we buried them…..by the time i got downstairs they had stopped howling and their tails were wagging in a happy way and they ran to the back door to go out—like a friend was out there…..i just had an overwhelming feeling that somehow in someway it was those 4 going on their journey….i let my two dogs out and they ran over to the spot and just sat down next to it…..

              isn’t that amazing? and yeah, now i’m sitting here crying too…..love you too Baby!! ((HUGS))

            • GlibWog

              Eddie sounds like a great BFF.. Oh absolutely they are there in spirit with him..

              OH For God’s sake.. Pass the EFFin Kleenex.. That is the sweetest..saddest touching story I have ever heard..

              Oh I believe.. and pets are so perceptive.. and just so caring about their brothers and sisters.. you and Eddie.. loving caring souls..

              Amazing story.. I am so glad that they died quickly and didn’t suffer.. sigh.. that would give me great comfort to know that..

            • Miss Tia

              yeah, we need a case of kleenex here don’t we? poli & pan played with Luci-fur, she was their friend….i took pan over to eddie’s the day i got her and you saw the short little clip of pan and Luci-fur at the dog park together….

              there was some comfort—i mean there was no comfort in them being gone—that they passed very quickly and painlessly…..if the upstairs tenant (who’s flooding of her bathroom caused the damage to the ceiling that the slumlord wouldn’t repair—we had no idea the wiring was rusting and then would short out and cause a fire!!) had kicked in eddie’s front porch door when arrived on the scene perhaps more could have survived…..the fire department kicked in that door and Survivor (his real name) staggered out and they gave him oxygen—he had prior breathing problems too, he was exposed to heavy smoke…..just a few feet away was Layla and Luci-fur….we don’t know where the fire fighters found Loner or Black Jack but they did very respectfully wrap them all up in blankets…..they also kept looking all over for the other 2, who we found after we were allowed to go in—though it was suggested we didn’t but they understood due to the holes in the floor, utter destruction, etc and eddie found the other 2 hiding in a dresser in the basement (which had 2 feet of water in it) very scared but alive and well…….and to THIS DAY, Maybe (one of the survivors) now freaks out, when she hears water running, she never did before….obviously she has trauma from the fire and hearing the water pour down on that dresser from the upper floors…..

              that upstairs tenant (if i ever see her, i swear i’ll end up in jail)…..she apparently opened HER apartment door, smoke poured out, she shut it, she walked PASSED eddie’s porch door–knowing he had furbabies, and LEFT, she had a boston terrier…the fire men wrapped him respectfully too…..i had said we could bury him in my yard but eddie said she might come back for him….the next day he was STILL on the front porch and we buried him in the back yard of the house there (she fucking LEFT HER DOG!!!)…..she comes home, house on fire, and LEAVES…..then a week later, eddie is back at work, he gets called to the office for an ER phone call and he said his heart stopped—cuz i mean what now?? it was the upstairs neighbor!!! calling him AT WORK, wanting to know IF HE HAD HER DOG! he said wtf? and she asked again….he’s like “you didn’t see the house burned down?” and she said she knew that, but did he have her dog and he said no, and told her where we buried him—she acted shock he was dead then she asked if HIS dog had survived and he said he lost his temper (he rarely does) and told her she might have survived had she kicked in the door and then hung up on her……i had blogged about all this and i guess her sister left me a comment saying i was judging her too harshly and that they had went and DUG UP poor little Red to have him cremated! i replied to THAT person that that was pretty disrespectful to disturb him like that and we had treated him with respect instead of ABANDONING him when he needed his person the most and i would continue to judge her harshly and i said i regretted that we didn’t bury him in my yard cuz they’d have to get a court order to remove him from my yard……

              can you believe that??? i mean, i can totally understand being in shock……but it was ALL over the news, all over the papers—big headlines, 5 pets perish in blaze, with a picture of eddie holding survivor, which pissed me off and i wrote the paper about that—of course i did! …..

              pets are VERY perceptive!! I got on a roll here, eh?? sorry about that….cold chilly day here….but the sun is shining…..

            • GlibWog

              Wow.. What a story.. Just tragic.. In Shock? Yeah the first thing I would do if I were in shock is Leave Animals in a Burning house.. Tragic..

              and Eddie holding survivor in the paper.. Yep I would be so Hot for the exploiting the tragedy for media purposes.. I am sorry.. How do you get over that? Tears.. <3 baby

            • Miss Tia

              Yeah, I mean the official fire & police reports (which I got copies of) state how Eddie came down the street at 10:50pm (he got off work at 10:30pm) and since there was 5 different city’s fire truck’s blocking the street, he got out and when learning it was HIS house, they had to hold him back—it’s in the report, he kept saying he had a dog and cats in the house and they had to tell him that one cat got out and they found his dog and 3 kitties passed and when he called me sobbing he thought ALL except Survivor were dead.

              So yes, you are in shock but you go to GET THEM, not just up and leave and call a week later to see if your dog is ALIVE?! I mean even realizing they were probably gone, how could you LEAVE them? I felt bad feeling her dog that night and felt he should be buried, but eddie wanted to give her the chance to come back to get him…..

              oh i raised hell with the record courier!! they even had it in the paper incorrectly making it seem like he was home at the time—-we made eddie get his blood pressure check in the ambulance on the scene because he had quintuple bypass surgery in 2002….they wrote it up like he had been home and was treated for the fire….they actually printed a correction!!!

              you really DON’T get over that…i mean 99% of all his belongings gone, 4 furbabies, gone….as he said, 57 years old and having to start from square one……he collected grinches too and had hundreds of different grinch items, all gone….photographs, albums….i mean anything you see in your house…..

              if i ever see that woman from upstairs i WILL go off on her!! she couldn’t kick up open the door she had to pass?! i mean, i would go kick open a door or break a window even of neighbors i don’t like if their house was on fire if i knew they had furbabies……and eddie had always been nice to her and had even given her dog food and dog treats for her dog when she was low on money and paid her a few times to let out his dog when he had to work double shifts…..SMDH……

  • Sibs

    Thank you, Tony, for all of the work that you put in every day to keep us informed and to make us think (great sum-up of the Idle Org situation). Thank you, Jeff, for an insightful look on a constantly relevant issue. Thank you, fellow Bunkerites. I had to make a stop here this morning to wish you guys a wonderful Thanksgiving.

    • GlibWog

      Enjoy your company baby girl.. xoxo

  • Kim O’Brien

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone ! Beautiful day here in Denver and off soon to the family dinner …only 25 or so people this time 😉 I just wanted to say how much i have enjoyed “meeting” all of you …sparing with some of you and laughing my ass off . Tony , you brought together the land of misfit toys …even us “never ins” fit right in . Thank you all SO MUCH !!!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Happy Thanksgiving, Kim.

      Try to be nice to your most annoying relative.

      Oh wait, that advice was for me.

    • OrangySky

      Happy T-Giving!

  • Sid_Snakey

    Wow, that Philadelphia news has to be a serious kick in the teeth for church members who have been regged and regged and regged for money to pay for Ideal Orgs.

    Turns out, all they had to do was say “sorry no, I don’t have any spare cash” and CSI would have just paid for it anyway.

    And if I remember correctly, once an Ideal Org is finished it is handed over to the church anyway.

    The thing I never understood was why Miscavige was risking alienating so many church members by getting them to personally pay for the Ideal Org programme.

    But now we know the multi-billion dollar church was (surprise, surprise) always the back stop and in order to meet Miscavige’s demand for growth, was always able to pay for the Ideal Orgs after all.

    Like I said – that is a real kick in the teeth. I wonder if the church membership will find out about this?

    • MaxSpaceman

      No- no, they won’t S_S. Ever. Unless they blow, of course !

    • splog

      You are familiar with the boiled frog metaphor?

      Not a one of those clams would ever have walked into an org the first day and immediately fallen for the crap they now shallow. they were gotten accustomed to it – most over them over 20 years or so. They are so used to doing whatever TheBoss says (first it was Hubbard, now it is Miscavige) that many will not see anything wrong with giving the org building back to the mothership .. ah, excuse the slip there … mother church. they have it all worked out in their heads as to why it’s the greatest good to do just that.

      Boards on the windows and fines? Easy to explain:

      There’s some SP fucker on the org lines who is holding up the money flows and the theta flows and basically jamming up the works. This person even has 5 degrees of separation from the City of Philadelphia Building Inspector and influenced them to not permit renos to proceed, insisted that the windows be boarded up to prevent vandalism and now fines the org for doing what he said! It’s all a devious plot by the Psychs and Big Pharma! And now the org needs $6,000,000 to flourish and prosper out of this mess.

      (nothing in that paragraph is exaggerated, that is almost word for word how clams think and speak)

      Looking at history, the odds say 10% of the flock max will leave. The rest will hunker down, pull the doublespeak cloak closer, and pay at least something. If you ask me, no one single event will take down CoS, it will be death by a thousand paper cuts. In 2015 JohnP is likely to crunch the numbers again and arrive at a figure of 749 clams left worldwide (or something like that)

  • MO Mom

    Today, I am grateful that I was creeped out by the IQ test that I took back in the day and didn’t give those people my real name or phone or anything else (a tendency I had in college with strangers). I was searching, but at least had enough common sense to see the Clamology was not the answer for me.

    I am thankful to be part of this wonderful community of smart, funny people from all over the world. You make my life better. Many of you are so very talented, be it in your biting satire or your clever ‘shops.

    May you all have a wonderful holiday with your family and friends. For those who are suffering through the horrid disconnection, may the end be in sight.

    And to all, a quality turkey coma.

    • OrangySky

      Cheers!

    • Interested

      I second that!

  • Interested

    Daily mail headline re our fwend tC “and he has been talking with women” hum , strange way of putting it (grins wickedly)

  • joan nieman

    Happy Thanksgiving to Tony and all the Bunker who celebrate today.

  • 0tessa

    Scientology’s ‘ethics’ has nothing to do with ethics. They just use the word ‘ethics’ as they use other words, giving them a made-up definition and so misleading people. Scientology’s ethics is just their way to explain how they are right and how their opponents are wrong (in their opinion). It has nothing to do with morality. Their policy is simple: our goals justify our means. And everyone who opposes this is a ‘suppressive person’ (another abused concept). The hallmark of Scientology is perversion: perverted philosophy, perverted ethics etc.

    • Cat Daddy

      Ethics itself can be anything, it’s a content neutral word

      • 0tessa

        What do you mean by ‘can be anything’?

        • Cat Daddy

          What is Ethics?

          Developed by Manuel Velasquez, Claire Andre, Thomas
          Shanks, S.J., and Michael J. Meyer

          Some years ago, sociologist Raymond Baumhart asked business people,
          “What does ethics mean to you?” Among their replies were the following:

          “Ethics has to do with what my feelings tell me is right or wrong.”

          “Ethics has to do with my religious beliefs.”

          “Being ethical is doing what the law requires.”

          “Ethics consists of the standards of behavior our society accepts.”

          “I don’t know what the word means.”

          These replies might be typical of our own. The meaning of “ethics” is
          hard to pin down, and the views many people have about ethics are shaky.

          Like Baumhart’s first respondent, many people tend to equate ethics
          with their feelings. But being ethical is clearly not a matter of following
          one’s feelings. A person following his or her feelings may recoil from
          doing what is right. In fact, feelings frequently deviate from what is
          ethical.

          Nor should one identify ethics with religion. Most religions, of course,
          advocate high ethical standards. Yet if ethics were confined to religion,
          then ethics would apply only to religious people. But ethics applies as
          much to the behavior of the atheist as to that of the devout religious person. Religion
          can set high ethical standards and can provide intense motivations for
          ethical behavior. Ethics, however, cannot be confined to religion nor
          is it the same as religion.

          Being ethical is also not the same as following the law. The law often
          incorporates ethical standards to which most citizens subscribe. But laws,
          like feelings, can deviate from what is ethical. Our own pre-Civil War
          slavery laws and the old apartheid laws of present-day South Africa are grotesquely
          obvious examples of laws that deviate from what is ethical.

          Finally, being ethical is not the same as doing “whatever society accepts.”
          In any society, most people accept standards that are, in fact, ethical.
          But standards of behavior in society can deviate from what is ethical.
          An entire society can become ethically corrupt. Nazi Germany is a good
          example of a morally corrupt society.

          Moreover, if being ethical were doing “whatever society accepts,” then
          to find out what is ethical, one would have to find out what society accepts.
          To decide what I should think about abortion, for example, I would have
          to take a survey of American society and then conform my beliefs to whatever
          society accepts. But no one ever tries to decide an ethical issue by doing
          a survey. Further, the lack of social consensus on many issues makes it
          impossible to equate ethics with whatever society accepts. Some people
          accept abortion but many others do not. If being ethical were doing whatever
          society accepts, one would have to find an agreement on issues which does
          not, in fact, exist.

          What, then, is ethics? Ethics is two things. First, ethics refers to
          well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought
          to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness,
          or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that
          impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder,
          assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that
          enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards
          include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right
          to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate
          standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well-founded reasons.

          Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one’s ethical
          standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate
          from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one’s standards
          to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means,
          then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our
          moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we
          help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

          This article appeared originally in Issues in Ethics IIE V1 N1
          (Fall 1987)

          Revised 2010

          http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/whatisethics.html

          • 0tessa

            TY. It will take some time to digest this.

          • 0tessa

            Do you agree that whatever content Scientology gives to the concept of ethics, it is perverted?

            • Cat Daddy

              In general yes, I choose “fucked up” or Batshit insane meyself to describe scientology Ethics

              perverted

              per·vert·ed
              [per-vur-tid] Show IPA
              adjective
              1.
              Pathology . changed to or being of an unnatural or abnormal kind: a perverted interest in death.
              2.
              turned from what is right; wicked; misguided; distorted.
              3.
              affected with or caused by perversion.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Here is an interesting thought experiment about morality. While this a simplification, it poses an interesting view of what one considers moral and why.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

            • Captain Howdy

              Ooh ooh! Divert the trolley, divert the trolley!

              that was easy

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Definition: “moral principles that govern a person’s or group’s behavior.”

          They can be many different things to different groups….as Scientology proves in the worst way.

          • Cat Daddy
            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Thanks!

            • Kim O’Brien

              I LOVE THIS MAN ….but Hitch is still in my heart of hearts …

            • GlibWog

              Hahhaha You know when he took off his Glasses he was going in for the kill.. and he did.

              Cat..haha I love this. thanks.. xo

          • joan nieman

            That kind of sums it all up in a short definition Bury.

          • Cat Daddy

            “The most ethical group on the planet”

  • mook
    • MaxSpaceman

      Go mOOk !!

      • Noni Mause

        R6 implant decorations, mook!

        • Lurkness

          lulz

  • Bella Legosi

    Happy Thanksgiving all! Just perused the article. Got stuff going on, of course………..OMG ITS SANTA!!!! lol just kidding, although watching kids go nutz for a old man is kinda humorous, if not downright entertaining.

    • Captain Howdy

      Happy Thanksgiving Bella

      So you got an elf gig?

      • Bella Legosi

        No, actually spent some time in RL with the parental unit and the rest of the immediate fam. My dad’s cat scan came out better than thought. His bloodwork came back and he is at little risk for the tumor turning cancerous! But his meds need changing BIG TIME (finally), and he can not drink at all anymore. I also quit the fuckshow that was my job. I am contemplating turning in a compliant with the state and getting a lawyer. The director stepped down (or was forced to resign) the day after I walked. Many of the clients I had want to private pay me (contract) but I still need to cover my ass and bases before I can do that.

        Never EVER a dull moment in the life of Bella!

        Hope you are doing better Capetian O my Captain!

        By the way I would be the PERFECT elf! A 5’1″ Italian with freckles! Now that’s CUTE!
        >D

  • GlibWog

    OK Bunker Looney Tunes..Please Honor The Man of the Day.. and Possibly in my lifetime.. and beyond.. blah, blah.. THE ONE THE ONLY ESPIANDO..He may be an Ass hole when needed but he is Our Ass Hole…

    Woo Hooooooooooo Give it up.. I SAID.. ” GIVE IT UP! ” *** clap, clap, bravo, bravo etc continue until I tell you to stop…..*** ( and that is just for me..)

    • Captain Howdy

      Excellent

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      “but he is Our Ass Hole”

      I thought the proper term was ‘asshat’ 😉

      • GlibWog

        Shit.. It is? Hmmmm I will remember for future Ass Hole References.. ha xox Hi Johnny .. Happy T Day!

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          I guess it’s all the same. Asshat was just something cool that has been thrown around lately 🙂

          Happy T Day to you too!

          • GlibWog

            Well.. You know I’ve always been cool.. so thank you.. ” Asshat it is.. ”

            I wondered why everyone looked at me funny when I called them an Asshole.. hmmm

      • GlibWog

        Woo hoo.. I just changed it Johnny.. thanks .. OOOps didn’t write edited on it.. oh well who cares..ha

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          Well, if anyone complains, they’re an asshat. Hahahaha.

          • GlibWog

            hahahha..

            Johnny… I keep forgetting to ask you .. why is your avatar so sad.. does it have a little tear on it’s eye.. ?

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              Yeah, it’s a tear. I guess my life is forever autumn, just like the song (from Jeff Wayne’s ‘War Of The Worlds’ album).

            • GlibWog

              I can’t remember the song.. Off to youtube it..

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        No, no…’asshat’ indicates a special type of greasy stupidity…think Grant Cardone or Tommy Davis.

        • GlibWog

          Really Bury.. hmmm

          I thought Cardone and Davis SCOHB .. Asshat seems too gentle for me..

          But if that is how you roll..I’m down with it..

  • Hola,
    I had some time today …. as I am one of the lucky disconnected ones 🙁
    Have a look at my shoop.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Sorry, BFM ;-(

    • Artoo45

      If you were in the North SF Bay Area you’d be busy helping us make mashies.

    • GlibWog

      My heart breaks for you.. Damn it..

      • Thanks, all is ok.
        I will try to remind my kids before Xmas that you celebrate “love”, “grace of charity” and “forgiveness”. They have to remind their mum.
        This year is my year, so my wife will be lonely on Xmas ((court decision)). She can accept my offer to celebrate together. If the kids wish it, then it might count twice … most likely not enough, but still a tiny chance.

        • GlibWog

          Ok is good. I’ll take it.. Oh hope is made with tiny chances.. so positive thoughts go out to you BFM xo

  • Artoo45

    Community is important. It’s one of the reasons so many people get sucked into the cults of the world. There are many communities I have the privilege of belonging to in the analog and digital worlds. In the cybersphere, this one is one of the most amazing in its ethics. I don’t use that word lightly. The levels of support and resolution of conflicts that take place here constantly amaze me. With little to no input from our esteemed host, this group actually behaves like adults. We are very diverse. Our reasons for being here vary widely, and conflicts arise, but in the end, we never forget that compassion for those in thrall to Hubbard’s creation underlies everything we do here.

    Yeah, we’re snarkmonsters and we love a good battle, but aside from all the J & D, there is real empathy and care shown by this group as a whole. We have our individual styles. Some are polemic in the extreme. Some are sweet and caring. But I speak of The Bunker in its entirety. I’ve been at this in my own way since ARS and I really never thought I’d see these end times come to pass. I am honored to be among you every day of the year, and the giants upon whose shoulders we all stand.

    • gobsmackedby Scieno

      That caused me to take a deep breath of relief. Thank you for sharing that clarity and eloquence.
      Happy Thanksgiving to all Bunkerites, good, bad but never indifferent!

      • GlibWog

        hahah Can you imagine any of us being indifferent about anything? haha Happy T day to you Gob..

    • GlibWog

      Fabulous comment Artoo.. and after I hearsayed Polemic I agree 100% xo

    • Captain Howdy

      Dam! That was stirring. It made my want to go get my sword or jump in my Spitfire, which is saying a lot for an ole cynical burn-out like me.

      • GlibWog

        Oh Howdy.. I had your number a long time ago.. you have a tender heart..

        I even put your Quote on the back of the SP Southern Bunker Society Medals!

        • Captain Howdy

          Ssssh..you’re going to ruin my (bad) reputation.

          • GlibWog

            Bad is the New Good..

    • Kim O’Brien

      i was trying to say what you just did in my post earlier …you said it better 😉 ditto

    • MaxSpaceman

      I love what you said, r245. Completely love it. Thank you.

  • GlibWog

    **** I just wanted to share my JOY.. ****

    My daughter who hasn’t spoken to me for over 2 years.. ( narcissistic… etc..)

    Just called to wish me a Happy Thanksgiving.. We redefined our relationship ..it was an intense call with crying on both ends.

    I had always kept an open door for her, but with my own set of rules.. ( won’t be disrespected, will not give her $, will be close to her X etc. ) I have always been able to see my Grandkids.. although she took me to court.. to stop it. ( Judge threw case out..)

    But we are taking things slow.. and I have both eyes open. .. But.. my heart is lighter. She lives in Ohio.. and we are taking baby steps.. Both Apologized for our wrong doings. She took responsibility for the pain she caused me.

    and my grandkids are thrilled that we both are making an effort to reconnect. The last time I saw them I told them that I love their mommy, but we are just butting heads right now, but one day we will be hugging it out..

    I am sorry for those disconnected from their families.. I feel your pain because I felt your pain.

    • Eclipse-girl

      (((HUGS))) I am so very happy for you.

      That is a great gift.

      • GlibWog

        E.. Thank you.. I know she can be manipulative.. but she is my daughter..

        My other daughter is done with her.. and although she brought it all on herself I could feel her pain as we talked.. and the mother in me just wanted to hold her.

        • Eclipse-girl

          you are her mother. of course you want to hold her.

          It is a great thanksgiving present.

    • Kim O’Brien

      oh honey ….big big hug to you 😉

      • GlibWog

        Thank you Kim.. when I saw her name come up on my phone.. I was like.. ” Whhhhhhhat?”

        She went to a wedding a couple of weeks ago. It was about 20 miles from me.. and she said she wanted to surprise me.. but was afraid I would reject her..

        I told her that I would have Lifted her up and hugged her until she begged for mercy..

        • Kim O’Brien

          i love that …truly …i have hugged my daughter extra tight more times than i can count for all of you here who have been effected by this organization ..and other situations ….I am so , so , so happy for you . Baby steps are the best ones …..remember those ? Remember when she took those first steps ?? …you are awesome ….much love for you

          • GlibWog

            Awwwwwww KIM thank you.. Now ..right now hug you daughter..I can’t hug mine..but you have her close her eyes..and you close your eyes and pretend for one moment..

            that the 2 of you are the 2 of us ..after being apart for over 2 years..

            I was already in pain over losing my twin and my mother.. My daughter was just too much for me to handle.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Come to Florida, I have a nice spare bedroom with a sleep number bed and LOTS of booze and a great weed connection.
            Just for a few days. It would be super cathartic for ya.
            I would even turn on the pool heater!

            • stateofcircle

              Ummm…..so what is your next free weekend?? I’ll cook for you!

        • SignsOfSuccess

          “…until she begged for mercy” ??
          uhmm…Please make it right this time.

          • GlibWog

            SOS.. Aren’t you tired of this shit.. ? Really tired.. ? Here you are here with us.. where is your family? Your Leader is living in the lap of luxury..

            Having a choice of 3 meals at each sitting.. Driving his fancy cars.. wining and dining and playing big shot.

            I know you think that there are millions of Scn around the world. Most estimates would place it at 30-50 thousand..

            Look at Super Power event.. It is a lie that 10,000 showed up.

            I will not answer you again. .. but man.. just blow..

            • SignsOfSuccess

              I’m just giving you advice to make it alright with your daughter.
              Don’t change the subject.

            • GlibWog

              I am a Trained Counselor .. I have given advice to ensure that families stay intact ..

              Scn. disconnect from loved ones.. families are torn apart.. Lives are lost..

              I WOULD NEVER TAKE ADVICE FROM A SCIENTOLOGIST IN A MILLION TRILLION BAZILLION YEARS.. NEVER……

              EVAH

            • SignsOfSuccess

              I hope for you that your daughter is not a Scientologist then. it would be sooo unrespectul

              to her.

            • GlibWog

              OMG.. Never ever ever.. She was not born into it.. And now with the Internet exposing the truths …about Scientology she would be stupid to fall for it now…

              I do not know what the word unrespectul means..

            • Eclipse-girl

              a parent should always going to protect their child from danger.

              Its a shame that within scientology children are recruited into Sea Org, even when the parents do not want that to happen.

              Lori Hodgson wanted her son to finished High school and wait until he was 18 before he joined Sea Org. Why did Sea Org continue to recruit a boy of 15?

            • SignsOfSuccess

              That’s a pure lie! Minors can’t sign SO contract without their parents’ agreement and signature.
              Again, don’t believe everything you hear.

            • GlibWog

              Yeah.. for Xenu’s SAKE ” Are ya gonna believe me or YOUR LYIN EYES.. ? “

            • Once_Born

              “Broad generalities” again. You do not seem to be able to address the details of particular cases.

            • Eclipse-girl

              The divorced father of child who did not have custody signed the parents agreement. The father had no right.

              Recruiters for Sea Org knew this, and didn’t care

            • OrangySky

              Watch Lori Hodgson’s videos.
              Lori has provided evidence to Karen, Tony and many others.
              You don’t want to believe these things happen, so you deny them.

            • stateofcircle

              Uuggghhhhhhhh why won’t you just go away already. You are just taking up Disqus space that would be better served by actual intelligent, insightful, truthful, literate and readable comments. You’re not even good at trolling, you’re just irritating at this point.

            • Verve

              Shush, muppet.

            • valshifter

              liar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! scientology do not give a shit if your parent sing or not, scientology do not give a shit about anything, in England anything scientology is considered NOT ACCEPTABLE, can you answer why?

            • jeff

              We all hope that noone becomes a Scientologist. For such a thing is disrespectful to humanity.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              Yes in a sense it can be disrespectful to Sapiens Humanity.
              And stop to tell lies Jeff. At least on Thanksgiving day…and maybe on Christmas too.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Do you know who you are not? And if so, are you interested in finding out who you are?

            • Once_Born

              “[…] disrespectful to Sapiens Humanity”

              The term is Homo Sapiens.

              Please word clear your comments, or you will be in even more trouble with Ethics…

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              pssst……
              there is no Homo Novis.
              It was a LIE.

            • IASREG

              Those dirty Wogs!!! The dwindling fantasy species Homo Novis will rule this planet after GATII and the Super Power rundown makes true Scientology superheros!!! 6
              months from now, after the Big Push, the orgs will be BOOMING!!! Already
              the public is rushing in to sign up for courses!!!!!!!! WOWWOWOWOWOWOWOW
              Oh damn. I had a reality checking cognition. Tomorrow less than 1,000 public will attend the IAS tent event. There will be as many or more staff and Sea Org. The regging will be furious but proceeds will be down. Mr. Miscavige will be angry, really angry at
              the SP’s who made it go wrong. The halls will be BOOMING with angry
              yelling as the abuse makes its way down the hierarchy. For you the yelling will be there, debt will still be there, the endless A-E, the sec checks, redoing objectives
              and student hat with a dunce cap, pressure to buy the Mark VIII’s,
              pressure to buy GATII junk, pressure for more IAS donations, more
              building donations, more renovations donations. WOW.

            • GlibWog

              Good God.. Where do I sign up? You had me at WOW ! REG!!!!!!!!

            • jeff

              Homo novus was a term made up by an overweight, Vistaril-addled, bigamist, deluded man who spent his last years in hiding while he let his wife take the rap and go to prison. Your dear LRH was a fucking fraud and that iis no lie.

            • Eclipse-girl

              You have no idea of what the issues are.
              You have no ability to give advice.
              You don’t know.
              You are not in any position to judge.

            • Missionary Kid

              It’s obvious you don’t like the same thing done to you that you do all the time. This is not confront and shatter. We’re not shattered, so obviously, the tech doesn’t work.

            • Once_Born

              I agree that changing the subject especially in order to avoid answering a question) is unethical.

              This is why I urge you to tell me when and where Scientologists have fed the hungry – and why this is ‘out exchange’.

              Otherwise, your inability to talk other than in broad generalities, might come up in your next sec check, and we know what will happen then…

            • SignsOfSuccess

              I already answered that below giving you an actual and well documented example

            • Robert Eckert

              Actually, you asserted that there was an actual well-documented example, but gave no documents or any kind of substance.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              JT on Haiti it was reported by many TVs.
              Now if you excuse me I leave, I have a world to save.
              Happy Thanksgiving to all. ( And try to not be too nasty with Scientologists).

            • jeff

              Reported by many transvestites?

            • Robert Eckert

              It is not possible to be too nasty with Scientologists.

            • nottrue

              Go SAFE the world

            • GlibWog

              WWWWWWWWWWWWait Wait …. ” Pant Pant.. ” Here ya go SOS you left your Cape behind..

              Happy Thanksgiving to you too..

            • Graham

              “I have a world to safe.”

              Arrogance + incompetence, encapsulated in one simple sentence.

            • Great White Clam

              Yeah. It ain’t right, either.

            • Once_Born

              SOS keeps commenting here, and Ron says, “The antisocial personality habitually selects the wrong target”.

              Scientology {ethics} can {prove} anything, can’t it?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Please report back soon with your stats and tell us how that world saving is workin out for ya.

            • D.Y.G.

              Did you notice his English suddenly went in the last hour or two?

            • Once_Born

              Judging by style (or, rather, the lack of it) SOS is at least two people.

              Perhaps Scientology management treats the people who comment here in the same way that the Ukrainian government treats the brave souls working to make the nuclear reactor at Chernobyl safe – don’t let anyone stay for too long, to prevent them from becoming hopelessly contaminated.

            • Robert Eckert

              It has been hypothesized that SignsOfSuckness is a sock shared by multiple people, one of them Marcotai (as Tony says), another being Yaude/TurtleZ (as Tory says), and perhaps there are others who use it.

            • Great White Clam

              I saw that happen with a cue-ball once. SNAP BURRRZZZ, and I could see the chalk dust rise up in a miniature rooster-tail from the felted slate as it curved its way around the opponent’s obstacle ball.

              They called that English, too

              I think s0s is under a similar force of spin. He/she/they just need to find the door. Hey, clams, quit saying, “What door?” It’s right there in front of you. Take it.

            • Captain Howdy

              The supplies that Travolta brought to Haiti were paid for by him, not the “church”.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Bingo! just like what he delivered to Katrina/NOLA.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              “JT on Haiti it was reported by many TVs.”

              Oy Vey!!! (rolls my eyes)

            • Espiando

              Never trust Haitian transvestites.

            • Once_Born

              Why can’t you show a photo of a VM feeding someone, then? And you haven’t answered by question, “Why is it not out-exchange for Scientologists to feed the hungry”.

              You are really not convincing anyone here and, since the tech always works, this must be your fault. Be careful at your next sec check.

            • Espiando

              Well, goody for you, goat-fucker. And, no, it wasn’t a good example. Please tell us an instance in which the Church of Scientology or one of its front groups directly gave money. Annette Iren and many other former VMs have told us that they had to pay their way there, and Iren’s example gave CoS’s total contribution to their effort as a breakfast that would only be classified as “continental” if the continent in question was Atlantis.

            • But… you are here… which I find more interesting than anything. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. You are so connected here for someone who disagrees with what you read here when if you truely believe… which really should make you indifferent. Yet you come here to engage… mostly directed at G. She’s a lively, loving one… who reminds you of? Your mom? X? Sister? There is something here you are searching for…and your religion isn’t supplying it. BTW I show up as me. In the world you walk in, you can’t. How very sad, indeed.

            • GlibWog

              Catherine.. Thank you for acknowledging that SOS does feel a connection to me. He has vented, softened.. been frustrated back to soft again for awhile..as different Avi’s..I have felt the connection for a while now.

              Wow.. thank you for your compliments ( blushing).. I would love more than anything to get through to him. ..and him coming in as one of us..

              I keep thinking of Tory/Magoo … How her questions were answered by kindness and not by the ” Scary Wog” as she expected. Andreas was her way out.

              and absolutely agree about indifference being the opposite of love. xox Baby

            • Casabeca

              Hi Baby, glad you’re up & Happy Thanksgining.
              And the signs you make are so well done.
              I love seeing your posts, it feels very sisterly.
              Keep up the good work 🙂

            • GlibWog

              Oh so sweet.. Cassie.. I was hoping that you were enjoying your Turkey day.. I wondered if you would stop by..

              Thank you..xox Awww I’m sure I’m old enough to be your mama.. smooches xox baby

            • Great White Clam

              Yes. But. It takes all kinds. I feel that had there not been some critics (for Tory) to push against, Andreas’ kindness might have passed unnoticed.

              Just saying.

              Also, I do not pretend to speak for Tory.

            • GlibWog

              Oh absolutely agree with you White.. I go from good cop to bad cop in a heartbeat.. trust me..

              and you just have to be at the right place at the right time for the seed to be planted..And what happened with Tory was the timing of the ” Perfect Storm..”

            • valshifter

              by by superman go save the world. of what? having any money in their pockets?

            • GlibWog

              Who are you to tell me NOT to change the subject? Good God Man.. hahahhaahh

              My husband doesn’t even talk to me like that..

          • jeff

            You’re giving advice to Baby? Nobody puts Baby in the corner.

            • GlibWog

              OMG…hahahahahahhahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahhahhahhahhahahhahah

              I was smokin my Hookah and almost dropped it.. Hilarious.. OMG… Jeff I just love you.. my Pie man..

            • jeff

              Thanks. I bought a pumpkin pie today. Couldn’t help myself. Only ate two pieces so far.

            • GlibWog

              Ate apple pie last night.. then woke up today and my hubby scooted out the door for pumpkin.. I am behaving .. ( 2 for me too..hahha) xoxo Happy T day Jeff..

            • jeff

              Happy Thanksgiving to you, Baby. Hope it all works out for you and your daughter.

            • D.Y.G.

              OMG, I forgot to take a chocolate pie out of the refrigerator!

          • D.Y.G.

            Call your family!

            • SignsOfSuccess

              My family are happily sleeping in their room after a joyful day.together.

            • D.Y.G.

              Does it give you joy on this wonderful holiday, a day that some of us give thanks for all that we have, to sit here trying to bring down wogs for whom you feel nothing but contempt?

            • Once_Born

              They’re miles away, then.

            • SignsOfSuccess

              Here is where we are:

            • Once_Born

              Where are the people who have disconnected from?

            • Sibs

              Is Tahiti as beautiful a place as they say it is?

            • Eclipse-girl

              yes. I prefer Moorea or Bora Bora

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Where? Wave, so we can see you!

            • Once_Born

              Is Google Image Search nice, this time of year?

            • Captain Howdy

              That doesn’t really look like Thailand, Marco. Least not what I’ve seen in travel shows.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Actually, yeah it does. We need to get you some brand new travel shows to watch!

            • Captain Howdy

              Naw, it looks like Tahiti or Pitcairn Island.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              No way. Those rocks are way to “sculpted by time” to be Tahiti, which is more recently volcanic.

            • Captain Howdy

              Next you’re going to be telling me is those volcanoes that Xenu blew everybody up in didn’t even exist 75 million years ago. Sheesh.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Thats a BINGO!!!
              😉

            • Kevin Woolard

              Yes, I completely believe that …

            • Espiando

              Gilligan’s Island? Yeah, that’d be appropriate. At least there will be many goats there for you to fuck.

            • OrangySky

              “Gilligan’s Island!” LOLing even more than I did at T-Giving dinner!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Never Never Land? That’s kind of appropriate..

              Stay away from Cannibal Cove.. I hear there’s a mean Crocodile who lives there..

            • valshifter

              how can you be on vacation if you have to save the world? a true scientologist do not have fun, only work work work for scientology.

            • Missionary Kid

              What does that mean? How big is your family? Do you have a spouse?
              If Co$ is as successful at communication as they claim, why has TC been divorced so many times? Why doesn’t COB live with his wife?

            • Great White Clam

              I read a book about another man who also kept his family in ‘their room’.

              In the book the man was a serial killer. His “family” was the remains of his victims.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              lol, I read a few of those myself.

            • Robert Eckert

              Or like the case in Cleveland.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I hope that is genuine. I really and truly do.
              😉

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              In “their room”? kids? or wife and kids in one room?
              Or what?

            • Espiando

              “Kids” being an appropriate title for the small goats that he believes he fathered.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              That just made me do a genuine SNORT!!!

            • Captain Howdy

              You almost made me choke on my nestles drumstick.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              OOHHHHHHHHHHHH. I love Those!!!!

            • valshifter

              just waiting for the day Miscavige splits them apart, for some reason or another, one gets kidnapped or sent to other country or to a ship and never seen again. I love disconnection.

    • Suzy

      So happy for you GlibWog!! What a beautiful thanksgiving gift.

      • GlibWog

        Thank you Suzy.. She just texted me.. ” Mom.. Let’s get it right this time.. I never want you out of my life again. It has been too painful. I love you..”

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Ok, now I just teared up!
          Damn those text messages!

          &%$#@!(*&

          • GlibWog

            I know Bury..and when I sat and ate my T dinner.. I had the text in front of me.. Great day..

            • Jo

              Got me crying too, now I got to go and clean my glasses or I can’t read anything. I’m so happy for you and your daughter x

            • GlibWog

              JoJo.. OK now ya got me tearing up again.. Jeeze..

              I have never come to the bunker without crying.. NEVER… and today is no exception..damn

        • Charlotte

          Crying tears of joy for you, Baby

          Best news. Love love love

          • GlibWog

            Char.. I see you with that beautiful baby girl of yours.. You know.. you just know..xox thank you xoxo

        • Verve

          It’s hard to make a monkey cry. You just did. 😀

          • GlibWog

            Awww monkey..come sit on my lap and snuggle. I am just glowing now and I have been up all night.. So I am going to bed.. I was so excited I couldn’t sleep.. xoxo Baby

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      So happy for you, Baby!

      (((HUGS)))

      • GlibWog

        Johnny I commented to you right after your post.. Damn Disq.. Thanks you Johnny.. xoxo

        ((((HUGS)))) I am doing the happy dance..

    • :’) hope

      • GlibWog

        That is so weird BFM because I just wrote the word HOPE to you.. I mean right at the same time.. So eeeeeeeery… HOPE for you .. xo

    • splog

      Love really does make the world go round!

      • GlibWog

        It does.. splog.. and I never gave up.. always asked about her.. always told the kids.. ” Tell mommy I said hi..and that I love her.. ”

        I realize we have work to do..I am a realist..but both of us are willing to do the work..

        • splog

          If I die in the next 5 minutes I can go to my grave knowing that I at least learnt this one lesson: love makes the world go round. I’m one of those hardcore geeky types and it wasn’t an easy lesson but it did eventually sink into my thick skull 🙂 It would have been quicker without scn though….

          I think that says a lot more about basic human nature than about splog

          • GlibWog

            What a Great Lesson though, huh? Glad it got through to you Thick Skull..hahah..

            You are out now.. that is all that is important.. You are OUT.. xo

    • Missionary Kid

      Happy thanksgiving, and thank you for sharing your joy. May the rest of the disconnected be able to rejoin their loved ones soon.

      • GlibWog

        Thank you Kid.. Yes..

        ” May the Rest of the Disconnected be able to rejoin their loved ones soon. ” MK

    • Ardent

      I’m so very happy for you!

      • GlibWog

        Ardent.. thank you.. and you know I have a thing for Columbo.. ( I do I do..ha)

        • Robert Eckert

          “I have a thing for Columbo” Hmmm, there’s just one thing that bothers me about that…

          • GlibWog

            OOOOh classic.. Just when ya think you are gettin away Scott free..

            He goes into his ” Columbo Mode..”

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      To any Scientology-lurkers out there:

      GlibWog’s story above is an real life WIN.

      THIS is what you should be trying to achieve.

      THIS is what life is all about.

      THIS is the way to happiness.

      • GlibWog

        Good God Johnny.. I was OK until I read this.. Jeeze.. I love you.. sniff.. Baby

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          Love you too,Baby 🙂

          Hope things work out for you 🙂 Better late than never!

          • GlibWog

            Awww you are just a sweetheart Johnny Angel..

            Yes.. I feel for those who have been disconnected for years and years and years.. sigh.. but we are in for a better, healthier relationship.. thanks babe..

    • SignsOfSuccess

      That’s good news. Don’t waste this opportunity, make it right this time.
      Unconditional love is without condition attached. Respect her and she will respect you.

      Good luck and happy thanksgiving.

      • Robert Eckert

        Do the same for all the disconnected.

      • D.Y.G.

        Love includes personal boundaries!

        • SignsOfSuccess

          Yes, shared and respected personal boundaries!

          • D.Y.G.

            Which does not mesh with “Unconditional love is without condition attached.” No, healthy love definitely has conditions attached.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Thank you for giving Baby good wishes. That was really nice of you.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        “Unconditional love is without condition attached”

        Whoa, hold the phone?
        Then you explain Scientology disconnection and how and why it is OK?
        Go ahead…I will wait!

      • underwaterface

        The definition of “love” I buy into is this: Love = the act of ACCEPTANCE, nothing more nothing less.

        At their convenience, people misrepresent or confuse love with neediness, attachment, obsession, infatuation, and all kinds of projection and romantic sincere so called “heart felt” mumbo-jumbo. Very few people define it as acceptance that I have observed.

        Here is how I would sum up North American’s version of “love”

        “as long as YOU promote MY survival and as long as YOU promote my point of view i love you, huggs and kisses, BUT the moment you do not promote my promote my point of view and the moment you do not promote my survival, I do not love you any more” No more huggs and kisses.

        To shun a person or persons for not practicing one’s religion or whatever Scientology, is to NOT be practicing love. But then again, most people do not practice love as I define it anyway.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          lovely.

          • underwaterface

            A relative here has a few shelves of what looks like every single book by Neil Gaiman, are his books as fantastic as that title?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              yes!

            • underwaterface

              Fuq. As if i needed more books to add to the reading list!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I feel your pain. But he is good. Especially if you keep his Scilon background in mind as you read him.

            • underwaterface

              If a piece of art is fantastic, I can try and keep something in mind for the first few seconds and then I am swept away or into whatever it is. What book of his would you suggest starting with? I believe I have every single one here,

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              The last one. Ocean at the end of the lane.
              And secondly “Neverwhere”.

            • underwaterface

              TY

            • underwaterface

              I titled a recent journal “Fight, Flight Or Freeze Or Blueberries.” So won’t ignore that synchronicity. it is settled, “Blueberry Girl”‘s on the list.

    • D.Y.G.

      Congratulations! Good for you for both for reconnecting and setting healthy boundaries.

      • GlibWog

        Thank you DYG.. Healthy Boundaries absolutely.. and she was ready to adhere to them.. xo

    • Sibs

      Great news! Glad to see you are making amends!

      • GlibWog

        Yep.. thank you.. She leaped and I caught her.. xoox

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      Best post on this already fine Thanksgiving day. Very happy for you and your daughter and I hope you continue to make it work 🙂

      • GlibWog

        Jimmy.. Thank you..

        She is approaching it as an adult and not a child.

        I believe that life is a series of ” Starting Overs.”

        I see this as a really good start for a healthy relationship. xo love baby

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Oh Wow Baby doll.
      This is incredible news and this makes me feel not only thankful, but hopeful.
      I am so happy for you.

      I would cry, but, meh!
      But xoxoxoxoxo anyway.
      And a big hug!

      • GlibWog

        Awww Bury.. all is right in my world. Cry? Meh.. it’s way beyond tears. It’s just wear my heart should be right now..xoxox love you sweetie.. Go back to your company.. : ]

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Are you kidding….Hubby went for a walk, kid went home and I am so full it is Ridiculous and yet in about ten minutes…………..I am having the first turkey sandwich of the day!

          😉

          Life rocks!

          • GlibWog

            Fabulous.. Yep.. Life Rocks.. and Rolls ( speaking of rolls..off to get another..) hahah

        • aquaclara

          Baby G, this is the very best news. Oh joyful day! I’m celebrating with you…hugs and happiness to you!

          • GlibWog

            Aqua.. it is a joyful day.. I love how everyone is rallying around me.. thank you ((HUGS)))

    • TXCowgirl

      Wonderful news, Baby! Very, very happy for both of you. Hold on tight to those you love. Xo

      • GlibWog

        Thank you Cowgirl. I will.. I will.. Life is too precious and short.. sigh

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      So happy to hear your good news, Glibby.

      • GlibWog

        Thank you 3 I am a realist.. I am.. but ahhh today.. the reality of my 2nd borne.. my dreamer and schemer coming back to me feels good.

    • Lurkness

      Awesome! Hope your relationship continues to heal and grow.

      • GlibWog

        Thank you Lurk.. I am very confident that it will. She knows that I will stick by my very laid out behaviors that I will accept.

    • Orglodyte

      So heartwarming! Happy Thanksgiving indeed!

      • GlibWog

        Thank you so much Orglodyte.. It was the bestest of the best..

        I am in my robe.. and jammie bottoms… just a great day..

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          LOL, I am wearing black velour sweats (fat pants) and a thermal henley. I look like shit, but I feel like a million bucks!
          Everyone here is Fat, Dumb and Happy.
          The way it should be!

          Cheers to all!
          Eat pie and prosper!!!

          • GlibWog

            Well Hell to the Yes on that one Bury.. It is cold here brrrrr and I have the little space heater near my feet… but I do have Unmatched socks one hubby’s the other mine..

            with my baby doggie sitting on my lap.. and of course PIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              perfect!!!
              I helped Mr. Nuts around the house..I even did DISHES!….. so now it is time for me to relax and goof off…………er, some more.

          • Sandy

            Na huh. Girl, we are fabulous.

            I am wearing grey velour pants in size extra long (cuz I need 36 inseam) They have elastic waists.

            My shirt is from them is an extra tall from my hubs C’mas site

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I got a 34″ to 36″ inseam too!
              Frickin how hard is THAT to find?
              #annoying!!
              Elastic waist here too……..It really helps with the never ending dinner.

              LL beans un-hemmed pants are too die for? Right?

            • GlibWog

              NO BRA…WOO HOO

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              DITTO. Free swinging titties! whoo hooo!

            • jeff

              Too funny!

            • GlibWog

              OMG.. Now that is totally inappropriate.. tee hee..

            • KJP in Portland

              Oh crap, my mind meets gutter again ;p

            • Sandy

              Truly. But, I got to retire. So, I do not have to find work clothes.

              If you need 36′ pants, size 10, I will send them to you tomorrow. Shipping pd by me!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I wish my fat ass could fit into a size ten. 😉
              But thanks!!!!!

    • MaxSpaceman

      Wonderful, Glib dear- that is so fantastic for you, your grand kids and all. And on Thanksgiving! A true blue bulls-eye blessing for you all !! xox Max E.

      • GlibWog

        Awww max thank you.. Yes.. blue bulls eye! xoxo Max E. + Baby

    • OrangySky

      God Bless, Glib. There is such power in forgiveness. And in making genuine amends.

      • GlibWog

        Ohhh Orangy.. it is so freeing.. I never stopped hoping.. and she has been going through intensive therapy.. so we are on the right path..

        She really had to look inside her to see that it was her that had ended such meaningful relationships. She is putting in the work to correct her mistakes..

        • Casabeca

          The possibility of reuniting is so beautiful.
          It would make us all so happy for you!
          I will hope with you :-).

          • GlibWog

            Ohh Cassie.. It is beautiful.. I didn’t know whether to announce it today or not.. So many with disconnected families..

            I didn’t want to appear that I was ” Rubbing it in..” Just thought maybe the ” Hope” factor would cling to them.. xo : ]

            • Casabeca

              How are things going with you re-connection with you DD?
              My sister “went away” from my family for years.
              I had a trip to Paris during that time. And I lit a candle in every single church I saw.
              She later turned up across the courtroom to see her son sentenced to prison, and still didn’t speak to us. One of the worst days of my life.
              But somehow she had a trauma that turned her toward us.
              She got treatment for BPD, and I began to understand that she was probably doing the best she could with what she had. Somehow she was just empty of certain empathies and emotions. So it seemed less personally aimed at me. And my compassion grew.
              We were awesome for what turned out to be the last 2 Yeats of her life.
              The bulimia and cocaine use had just worn out her heart and he died in her early 40s.
              She was soooo frustrating and maddening at times, but wouldnt I love to hug her again.
              Sorry for rambling. I know reunions are damn hard.
              Wishing you all the best, and unconditional love going both ways :-).
              PS I hope you are still dancing on your countertop!

            • Baby

              Ohhhhhhh thank you so much Cassie.. Tragic story with a happy ending.. Just so bittersweet. huh ((HUGS)))

              So glad that you reconnected honey..

              She called me the other day and told me that she was getting married.. She has only known him for a month. I was so proud of myself for not opening my big yap to tell her that it was too soon..

              But telling me first is a huge step… for her.. and not warning her about the danger of jumping into something so quickly is a huge step for me..

              So we are moving forward. Thank you so much for your story honey.. BPDs are so difficult population. So polarizing. Narcissists are difficult too.. but I am finally catching on to her..

              I am absolutely still dancing on the countertops.. smooches.. am sorry about your loss honey.. She is finally at peace, huh? xoxox Baby

    • Peter

      Omigawd, what WONDERFUL NEWS ON THANKSGIVING DAY!!!!! I am more joyous for you than ever. VVVVVVVVWD for your persistence and sanity on keeping in your own rules. And BLESS HER, too, for seeing some light. What a fantastic early Xmas gift!!!

      • GlibWog

        Ohhh Peter.. thank you.. It was the best news.. when I heard her voice on the other end..and she was crying.. and I was crying..then she shouted and I shouted..and she said you did this and so I did that and then I said well you did this so I did that..

        and at the end we were just laughing … and loving and mending what we once cherished.. Thank you so much.xooo Baby

    • Ruby

      So happy for you!

      • GlibWog

        Ohhh Ruby thank you.. yep.. Yin yang.. xoxo love baby

    • whenpigsswim

      What a lovely thing to be thankful for. I’m so happy to hear this!

      • GlibWog

        Aww thanks pig.. I am very thankful today.. Very, Very thankful.. : ]

    • Aslansown

      I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to say that this touched me so much.

      Years ago I was the one who “disconnected” from my parents b/c of some of their behavior which I just couldn’t tolerate. They didn’t recognize any of the behaviors that I found inexcusable. I told them not to contact me in any way…that lasted for 3 years and I have to say my life was much better while we didn’t have contact. People used to say it seemed like the weight of the world had been lifted off of my shoulders (and that’s the way I felt too).

      I am very thankful that my mother did call me when my father was dying. I immediately flew out there and had a chance to ask for his forgiveness for hurting him so much, as he asked for my forgiveness for things he’d done. There was lots of crying but a wonderful reconciliation. I was also thankful that instead of the two days the doctors had given him, he lived for 6 months which gave me time to fly down 4 times to be with him. We became closer than we had ever been. When it was obvious that he only had a few days left and was slipping into a coma, I sang songs that he had grown up with in church (I’m starting to cry even as I type this) and he tried to sing along. (That was in 1995 and I had trouble singing b/c of my tears. I can’t even hear the song “His Eye is on the Sparrow” without completely breaking down.)

      I felt honored (I don’t know if that’s the right word) that he called for me as one of his last words and that I was by his bed when he took his last breath.

      If I hadn’t had that reconciliation I know that I would forever feel that he had died with the thought of my rejection and that would have haunted me.

      So, I’m so happy for you that your daughter reached out to you and that it sounds like a reconciliation is possible.

      xoxoxo

      • Charlotte

        Beautiful story, Aslansown (I always read that as Aslan’s Town). I am blubbering all over again.

        You were able to forgive and ask for forgiveness with an open heart. That is so much more than many can do. You must be a beautiful person.

        Thank you for sharing and helping to spread some positivity . xxx

        • Aslansown

          Thank you Charlotte. I really appreciate your kind words.

          As for my name, if you’ve ever read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, you’ll recognize the name Aslan — the lion that represented Christ and his mercy and grace. I added “own” because I am a Christian so I am one of his own. But if you see Aslan’s Town that’s no problem!

          • Charlotte

            Oh, I know the book of course, and figured that was the meaning behind your name; my mind just always split-second adds a ‘t’, and sees your lion as fire. I like it.

            • Aslansown

              Sorry — I didn’t mean to preach! I’ve just found that many people aren’t aware of the book.

              I know — I see some of the names a little off too. So think of me as Aslanstown if you want!

            • Charlotte

              You are passionate about your beliefs and certainly free to have them, so no complaints from me.

      • GlibWog

        Oh sweet Lion.. What a beautiful touching story.. I’m crying now because of your honesty and I know the pain you must have been under to disconnect.

        and then the freedom it offered you.. We become so entangled as family that you don’t know where one stops and the other begins. Sometimes it just takes time to regroup..get our own shit together before repairs can be made.

        I am thankful that your mama called when your father was dying.. the closeness can not be measured and the memories made from those last 6 months are priceless..

        Eye on the sparrow is beautiful..and Amazing Grace will bring me to sobs..

        Oh no .. Honored is the perfect word. He wanted to say goodbye to his baby girl. .. Touching story Lion. and yes.. I’m not expecting unicorns and rainbows, but…

        Talking and sharing feelings.. forgiving .. love ..and a bond that has not been broken is the right start to a mother daughter relationship that will now be a healthy one.. love Baby

  • TXCowgirl

    Taking this quiet moment to wish bunkerados, near and far, a very Happy Thanksgiving.
    from Small Town, Vermont….

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Absolutely Beautiful. Thank you.

    • Sandy

      TX girl. What few relatives I have left are far flung. Hub’s family has also dwindled to a few & they were lukewarm to the holiday. We had Hungry Man frozen turkey dinners he made + he surprised me with a frozen peach pie he made. It was perfect. It is who you are with, not where or how many peeps are there. I had Hub, 2 dogs and a bossy bird. It was perfect.

      • TXCowgirl

        “It is who you are with,…” Exactly, Sandy. My mom is in one place, my father in another, my progeny in another still, while I am in frosty New England with my sister.

        Three years ago today, my love and I spent Thanksgivng together, just the two of us: rack of lamb, homemade yeast rolls from a 1950’s Betty Crocker cookbook, and veggies from the garden. Five months later, during an evening walk, this same lovely, vivacious man unexpectedly and instantly passed on from this life. That Thanksgiving will remain at the forefront of my Thanksgiving memories; just two people happy in each other’s company and making their own traditions.

        Glad to know you had a perfect celebration, as well.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          So sorry for your loss, but happy for the good memories you retain. Beautiful.

          • TXCowgirl

            Thank you, Bury. I’d do it all over again.

            • aquaclara

              Thanks for sharing this storÿ. What a wonderful story. But it was far too short. I hope you are finding peace in your life now. I’m so sorry for your loss.

            • TXCowgirl

              Aquaclara, finally the grass is green again and the sky is blue. Together with his family we share his enthusiasm for life. He was the lauded athlete who died young:

              To an Athlete Dying Young
              BY A. E. HOUSMAN
              The time you won your town the race
              We chaired you through the market-place;
              Man and boy stood cheering by,
              And home we brought you shoulder-high.

              Today, the road all runners come,
              Shoulder-high we bring you home,
              And set you at your threshold down,
              Townsman of a stiller town.

              Smart lad, to slip betimes away
              From fields where glory does not stay,
              And early though the laurel grows
              It withers quicker than the rose.

              Eyes the shady night has shut
              Cannot see the record cut,
              And silence sounds no worse than cheers
              After earth has stopped the ears.

              Now you will not swell the rout
              Of lads that wore their honours out,
              Runners whom renown outran
              And the name died before the man.

              So set, before its echoes fade,
              The fleet foot on the sill of shade,
              And hold to the low lintel up
              The still-defended challenge-cup.

              And round that early-laurelled head
              Will flock to gaze the strengthless dead,
              And find unwithered on its curls
              The garland briefer than a girl’s.

            • GlibWog

              Ohhh I got goosebumps.. fabulous..

        • GlibWog

          TX.. OMG sobbing now.. I am sorry for your loss TX and you write so beautifully about him.

          I am too sensitive to be walking this earth.. WAAAAAAAAAAy to sensitive..

          • TXCowgirl

            No tears, Baby. I’ve shed enough of them for everyone in the last 2.5 years.

            We’d known each other since we were 10 years old. Went to middle and high school together as only friends, then went on our own ways after graduation. Thirty years later, while in another country, my father runs into him and tells him he should give me a call. Two weeks later we were inseparable.

            It turns out that we married (others) within 2 weeks of each other, our sons were born two days apart, daughters born three weeks apart, and later on we divorced four weeks apart. So, we were friends for 7 years, apart for 30 years, then brought back together by pure happenstance. The two subsequent years we reveled in together were above and beyond. Though it ended all too soon (he passed 5 days after his 48th bday) and it was heartbreaking, I remain thankful for every day together. His memory continues to bring me joy.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh that is so beautiful…….I am so glad you all reconnected.

            • GlibWog

              OMG Now I remember you and I talking about being brought together after 30 years..

              OK Tears dried.. You my dear are just a remarkable woman. I aspire to be just like you!

              SO THERE! ( seriously what a heartwarming story.. you dad played cupid..xoxox)

            • TXCowgirl

              Bingo! Your synapses are firing tonight, Baby. And yes, my dad rocks!

            • GlibWog

              What a love story.. I am such a romanticist : ]

            • Eclipse-girl

              While I am sad for you, I also very happy that you did have some time together.

              (((HUGS)))

            • MaxSpaceman

              Yes, TexasG – you’re lucky lucky lucky that you were blessed with the 2 full years together!! Truly! I’m so happy for you that you got to have that. Some never get 2 days. Ever. Let alone 2 years.

            • TXCowgirl

              Exactly, Max. You’ve succinctly said what I’ve been trying to express. Thankful for the best parts of life, regardless of the time spent. Though he is gone, my life continues to be better due to his influence on and in it.

        • Charlotte

          So sorry for your loss, but so happy that you two were able to find and love each other for the time that you did. xxx

          • TXCowgirl

            Thx Charlotte. Still hard for me to believe that I finally experienced the real thing. Though the time was short, it will last my lifetime. He was (and still is) an exceptional man.

        • Sandy

          TX girl. Am a little breathless at your post. Need to appreciate Mr S.

          Jeez.

          My Dad also died suddenly. All peeps who luv – remember how easily they can be taken from you.

          • TXCowgirl

            And when they have passed on, remember their joy and be thankful.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I am sorry for your loss.
          I am glad you have such beautiful memories.

          (((HUGS)))

        • underwaterface

          That is very skillfully and magically described. I give you an A+ for being in touch with all of it like that and being able to express it vividly and authentically. Reminds me of Faulkner or some other master writer who is not afraid of being right there with life as it is.

          • TXCowgirl

            I am humbled by your compliment. Thank you. Sometimes the words flow in an unexpected rhythm.

      • GlibWog

        Absolutely 100% spot on Sandy..

        Me, Hubby and 3 begging doggies.. Yep..

      • aquaclara

        You are a sweetheart, and so is your hubby!

    • Kevin Woolard

      Lovely photo …

    • GlibWog

      Wow.. beautiful photo TX thanks.. I am in Awe..

      • TXCowgirl

        It’s the view from my sister’s “treehouse” guest room. No wonder I visit 4 times a year!

        • GlibWog

          Treehouse Guest room.. I’m movin in.. Well except for the Snow and OK my hubby and doggies.. beautiful!

    • aquaclara

      Happy Thanksgiving! This is beautiful!

      • KJP in Portland

        Happy Thanksgiving AC! Too bad there’s not much snow east yet!

        • Captain Howdy

          And that’s the way we like it, uh-huh. No snow till January…no snow till January.

    • underwaterface

      If you took it, what kind of camera/ lens was this awesome picture taken with? You going to tell me an iPad :-)?

      • TXCowgirl

        iPhone 4 set on panorama. Cool, isn’t it?

        • underwaterface

          Hell yeah. And it takes a good eye to grab an image like that.

          • TXCowgirl

            Thx for the props. With such a beautiful vista, it’s hard to screw it up. 🙂

    • KJP in Portland

      Oh, that is cool! (((hugs)))

      I have family in New Haven, but I come from the other half out here in Orygun.

      We should get at least one snowfall this year. Farmer’s says around Christmas, I say early-mid December. I always love snow here, because it doesn’t snow at all like it used to, when I was little and a teenager (global warming?).

      Happy Thanksgiving, Tex!

    • pronoia

      And a happy Thanksgiving to you from another small town in VT!

      • TXCowgirl

        Cheers, my dear! Such a bucholic place to spend the holiday.

  • Mark

    And if you think this is disgusting, you should see the uncensored version:

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      EwwwHHH!

      • Mark

        (Mischievous chortling)

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I was almost ready for more stuffing………..but now…I think I will wait a bit.

          • Mark

            Oh I’m sorry! But it’s a good idea to leave some room for Xmas dinner.

    • i-Betty

      Snortimer, oh Snortimer, we seek you here, we seek you there, my porcine friend we seek you everywhere.

      Gross! Ron-bogeys!

      • Mark

        You haven’t seen what I came up with in the first place. But he probably considered ethics as no more significant (for him) than the contents of his hanky…

        • GlibWog

          Don’t you dare show us what you came up with in the first place.. eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwh

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            No shit…………..because I will NEVER be able to eat green bean casserole again!

          • KJP in Portland

            Once he said ‘hanky’, I got it.

  • skippress

    It’s always great reading Jeff’s commentary because he was so involved with the publications of the cult for so long. Similarly, in the 1980s because of a personal tragedy, when I thought I needed to learn a lot more about “ethics” (and the $cientology kind really isn’t), I did a lot of training and auditing that put me only a couple of short courses away from being a Scientology Magistrate, the ethics equivalent of a Class 8 auditor. And for years I was a voluntary unpaid ethics officer at ASHO and AOLA with almost no complaints and many raves. Interestingly enough, before I could take those two courses I was told I needed a lot of security checks, haha! One course left to do was on “rollback” which is a joke in practice and a way of stripping off your interest in bad news you’ve heard about the cult. So now to the tenets of the SP. Shortly after leaving the cult, I realized that the dirty dozen applied completely to Hubbard, that he was psychologically projecting the attributes of himself on others.

    And couldn’t we say those tenets apply vigorously to the nature of David Miscavige?

    1. He or she speaks only in very broad generalities… – Miscavige always does that at events when talking about “wins” worldwide.

    2. Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks… – He’s the Dwarf King of this.

    3. The antisocial personality alters, to worsen, communication when he or she relays a message or news… – This also seems self-evident.

    4. …an antisocial personality…does not respond to treatment or reform or psychotherapy… – Has Miscavige mastered auditing? Is he really an OT? And as for REAL treatment, he’s never had any and desperately needs it.

    5. Surrounding such a personality, we find cowed or ill associates… – Including the executives he BEATS UP with goons standing by backing him up.

    6. The antisocial personality habitually selects the wrong target… – As in, psychiatrists ruin the world, or Leah Remini (according to Davey) is an SP when it’s obvious the public LOVES her.

    7. The antisocial cannot finish a cycle of action… – Power building in Clearwater, anyone?

    8. Many antisocial persons will freely confess to the most alarming crimes, when forced to do so, but will have no faintest sense of responsibility for them… – He needs to be forced to, by the Justice Dept. in a RICO action.

    9. The antisocial personality supports only destructive groups and rages against and attacks any constructive or betterment group… – $cientology is the most destructive religious group to its members since Heaven’s Gate.

    10. This type of personality approves only of destructive actions and fights against constructive or helpful actions or activities… – Goes without saying.

    11. Helping others is an activity which drives the antisocial personality nearly berserk… – Can anyone point out ANY way he’s ever helped anyone?

    12. The antisocial personality has a bad sense of property and conceives that the idea that anyone owns anything is a pretense, made up to fool people. – Miscaviage certainly applies this to the lives of his staff members, and wasn’t he reported as being worth $50 million recently? You don’t earn that on a Sea Org salary, and that’s all he’s ever done in life.

    So… DAVID MISCAVIGE, YOU ARE THE MOST SUPPRESSIVE PERSON IN $CIENTOLOGY!

    • Espiando

      And cue Marco/Yaude’s Dead Agenting of Skip in 5…4…3…2…1…

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Maybe not…he may be in a carb induced coma……………cuz yeah, well, the tech doesn’t work, and neither does Niacin.

      • GlibWog

        and cause he is skeered of you King of the Trolls..

      • GlibWog

        ESPI did you get your Birthday card from all of us ? I posted it long time ago.. and all your buddies upvoted you Mr…..

        To the one and only.. Your friend and mine.. blah, blah, blah.. We love you Espi.. Bro.. big Troll King you..xox Bunker.. ( The original is still posted.. ) but I’m sure by now you are passed out..

        MOVING, THANKSGIVING AND BIRTHDAY.. Well you go boy.. I mean seriously.. go to bed..xo

        • Espiando

          I did, of course, and thank you to everyone, but I didn’t think it was in good taste to respond. I’ve got a lot of elements of Victorian Gentleman in me alongside all of the troll stuff. They’re not mutually exclusive, but there’s a good deal of cognitive dissonance sometimes.

          • GlibWog

            Fabulous.. I didn’t repost it for your thank you Espi.. I just wanted you to know it was there in case you missed it our Potty Mouth ( Troll King) Victorian Gentleman..

            Oh that’s a good combination to have espi.. hahahha .. You are truly a special person to all of us.. You just have no idea Mr. xo Baby

  • underwaterface

    Do some individuals, involve themselves with the Scientology community because they perceive it to be a good networking opportunity? And just pretend to go along with all the religious stuff hoping they will get ahead? Like the way some people join the stonemasons or freemasons?

    • Eclipse-girl

      First, welcome to the Bunker.

      I am a never in. We have had lots of people tell us how they got into scientology

      First, they were usually looking for something. The personality or stress tests are designed to find your “ruin.” What is a button for you that needs to be worked on.

      Second, its a slow process. They have you taking classes, they are always happy to see you and tell you how great it is to have you. That is the love bombing.

      Eventually, through more courses and more auditing, there is a lulling of your ability to think rationally about scientology. Many of the courses are designed in a way to stop your critical thinking.

      People who do fall deep are hoping to improve themselves. They think the tech works.

      Also remember, you possible are more aware of the secret beliefs of scientology. The whole OT III , lord Xenu crap was kept secret for decades until the internet. Thank the people who did publish the secrets. they were sued by scientology.

    • Great White Clam

      No.

      That’s the short answer.

      Scientology is a cult that isolates. Part of the trap is that as a member you very often only deal with other members. The push on new members is to get others (fiends, family, co-workers, etc) the new member knows to also join. If they don’t the new member disconnects from them as PTS/SP “tech” is applied. Pretty soon the only people communicated with are other clams/cult members. Makes it hard to leave the cult if you work for, rent from, or are otherwise dependent on the cult members. I have never heard of someone winning friends and influencing (ordinary non-cult) people as a cult member.

    • KJP in Portland

      Welcome underwaterface,

      Scientology would be ONE HELL OF AN expensive way to network and get ‘contacts’ to get ahead and be successful.

      I mean, we’re talking hundreds of thousands here.

      Please, take the time and go back and read a few articles of Tony’s over the past 3-6 weeks. You’ll see what this CULT is all about.

      Too much of (98%?) America LAUGHS at these Scientologists. WHY, oh WHY, would I want to associate or network with people that the rest of the US thinks are CRAZY to begin with.

      See if you can get an invite to a Freemason lodge or something. Not expensive and definitely not as weird!

      Happy Holidays to you!

      • underwaterface

        Then, maybe just rich people who can afford hundreds of thousands but want millions, maybe just rich actors who view it as a way to get higher up in Hollywood?

        • Eclipse-girl

          That may have been true when Tom and John Travolta joined, but I do not think so anymore.
          I would assert that it is no longer worth the hassle.

          Jason Beghe publically left the cult and his career has been getting better.

          Has it hurt Leah Remini?

        • GlibWog

          It would major backfire today underwater.. at one time there was an actor’s studio which was a feeding ground for Scn.

          but now with all Scn. crimes coming out .. with internet, anonymous, media and word of mouth it is now met with ridicule and boycotting celebrities..

        • Robert Eckert

          As Baby and E-girl have said, back when Travolta joined, yeah, it was part of a network with Katselis’ (spelling?) actor’s studio and connections from there, but a lot of those people have been purged since, and the remaining Scientologist celebrities have made so many enemies that for a new aspiring actor to join in the hope of getting a leg up would be totally counterproductive nowadays.

          • stateofcircle

            Let’s take a look….
            Travolta? No major films, let alone hits…”Old Dogs” in 2009 did OK, he was in Savages in 2012 but wasn’t the star.
            Jenna Elfman? Can you name something she’s been in in the past few years? Probably not, she’s just had a bunch of guest spots on a few shows.
            Giovanni Ribisi? He’s now on what looks like a horribly cheesy laugh track-laden sitcom that will probably be cancelled…so he went from indie movie star and critical darling to that garbage.
            Danny Masterson? I think he’s DJing now.
            Jason Dohring? Veronica Mars movie yet to be released, and that’s pretty much the only work he’s gotten in years.
            Marisol Nichols? Cancelled TV show last year and nothing for 2 years previous to that, 1TV bit parts and a part in a short since.
            Krusty? Well, she got a TV Land show, but we all know how her careers been.
            Ann Archer? Kelly Preston? HA!

            To be fair, Elizabeth Moss is doing well (but rumor has it she is not on good terms with the cult, and is 2nd gen, so she might just be sticking in it for family’s sake). Erika Christensen has been on Parenthood. Juliette Lewis has some pretty good supporting roles, but her career certainly isn’t what it used to be.

            Then there’s a slew of D-listers and hangers on not even worth mentioning. Their flagship stars Cruise and Travolta are fading fast, and there really is no one else on the rise. So I think it is safe to say Scientology is not only insignificant in Hollywood, but detrimental to ones career.

            • GlibWog

              I also want to add..And this is extremely important..

              3.. count them 3 celebrities showed up for the Biggest Event of the Century that took 15 years to complete..the Super Power building..

              What does that tell you about the state of Celebrities and Sclilooooooooney tunes.. ?

              and how many on the SSSSSSSSSSh ” Down Low?” Will Smith and family to name a few..

        • KJP in Portland

          Noooo. Hollywood has started to shun Sci actors right and left anymore. They’re becoming bad business for the filmmakers. They know they take a big chance at RATINGS when they cast a known-Scientologist on their series, in their movie, etc.

          A rich actor in Hollywood got rich by being a good performer. He / she will stay rich as long as they can still perform. And, then they will have a comfortable retirement if they’ve planned and invested their money well, and didn’t piss it all away living a king’s life.

        • GlibWog

          I haven’t welcomed you UWF … Welcome to crazy land..

          This is a good start.. My recommendation to you is just read.. read.. read some more.

          We refer to it as going down the Rabbit Hole.. Because you will NOT believe what you will read. Every story ..is a tiny thread of a bigger picture.

          TonyOrtega started the Scientology info center over at the Village Voice and then came over here. So anything you see from Tony is Education. The man is a Rock Star.

          I will warn you though.. It becomes addicting. It is NON Fiction. Tony just set out to discover the truth and he has weaved it together for us..

          Don’t hesitate to ask.. Also fabulous books on the subject.. Again Welcome ..relax ..there is a lot to learn. You won’t learn it overnight.. but it will slowly sink in as you learn about the evils of the church. xoxo Baby

    • Great White Clam

      You mentioned religious stuff. Even Hubberd claimed that it was not a religion.

      His words from 1953 in the pamphlet ”Creation of Human Ability”

      “Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a
      psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a……”

      Note: this passage was removed in 1971 and later editions.

      • Great White Clam

        There is more, much more in hubberd’s own words.

        From HCOPL 29 Oct. 1962 titled “Religion”

        “……Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis
        throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual
        activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants
        and solicitors……”

    • Verve

      There are plenty of other groups to join for networking opportunities- professional societies, school alumni groups, company alumni groups, community groups, there are even Facebook & LinkedIn groups just for networking. All free. No blather you don’t care about.
      The only way to do networking worse than joining $ci is to sit in a closet by yourself.

  • KJP in Portland

    Are you all stuffed now?

    Who’s napping? Hmmm???

    Anyhoo…I hope it was a great day for everyone here,

    I hope you had lots of turkey too. OO

    Just ring…I’ll be around (and, NO, I don’t wanna do your dishes!)

    • GlibWog

      Hi honey.. I’m watching.. We are the Millers and it is hilarious..taking a mini break so stopped in really quick.. Happy t day xoxoxo love baby

      • KJP in Portland

        (((HUGS!)))

        OO

        Come back after your post-turkey nap! I want a little snow here, dammit we don’t get what we did when I was child here anymore. Not even half the snowfalls…must be that Global Warming thing.

        HAPPY, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to YOU and yours 🙂

        • GlibWog

          No nap for me.. You can have your Freakin Snow.. It is..60 degrees now and I’m cold brrrrrr…. I am getting to be a Woose..

          thank you Kjp… It has been absolutely wonderful. xo

    • TXCowgirl

      Hi hon! Snuggling in with a turkey/cranberry sandwich while the rest of the house has drifted off in a tryptophan haze. Hope your gathering was fun and absent of unwanted incidents….that, right there, is something to be thankful for. Gobble, gobble.

      • KJP in Portland

        (((HUGS))) Aww…how sweet of you. I love your pictures! I had my nap. Now, I’m gonna just sit here and jell and see what fun stories I read here tonight.

        And you better let the rest of them do the dishes! I’m sure you worked your butt off!

        (((HUGS))) OO

  • Miss Tia

    Jumping the gun here, but for those who partake, let this tune be in your head for black friday! 🙂 And if you go out, PLEASE be careful and safe! in the stores and on the roads!! (people are driving who are sleep deprived–that’s why i stay in now, unless i have a furbaby emergency as i almost got in a very bad accident—i swerved out of the way just in the nick of time—by a sleep deprived shopper years ago who’d been up over 24 hours, she had cooked for thanksgiving then camped out outside a macy’s and hit up other stores, then caused a major accident, everyone survived, but she had broken bones as did the people in the vehicle she slammed into and the vehicles were totaled and the things she HAD to go buy? all over the road)……please be safe!!!! and please be kind to store workers….a smile and a kind word can go a long way for them as they probably had no choice in working, are getting abuse, accused of personally not having something in stock, etc…..(stepping off school marm box and sending my ass to bed!!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVQKiqCZ9No

    • MaxSpaceman

      Fantastic video MissT – thanky!

    • Eclipse-girl

      (((HUGS))) That is terrible.

      You must be going through shock right now.

      And yes, stay inside unless it is am emergency

      • GlibWog

        E.. that happened to Tia years ago.. but how sweet of you

        • Miss Tia

          Yeah, that was very sweet of E-girl! Yep, years ago but I still shudder when I drive past that area!! And if I have to drive to the vet on black Friday, I don’t go on that road!!! After the crash waiting for the ambulance I went over to the lady —I mean I knew I had to make a report since I witnessed it, there was major damage, injuries and I was somewhat involved as I had to swerve and end up on a berm—to talk to her to keep her conscious and she kept talking about the STUFF SHE BOUGHT and she didn’t want it stolen and could I go get it? I said it was fine, no one was gonna take it as all 5 lanes were totally blocked by vehicle pieces and her stuff and she needed to stay conscious and that’s when she started telling me how she’d gotten to Kaufman’s at 3am to wait til they opened and she hadn’t slept at all and she had gotten up on Thanksgiving at 4am to make dinner (this around 2pm on black Friday and I was just going to grocery store!!!).

          Ever since then, I won’t go out! Except for furbaby emergencies!!

          • GlibWog

            Wow.. that is so traumatic Tia.. Thank God you were with her.. My God that poor sleep deprived woman..

            You couldn’t pay me to go out in that crowd.. ugh.. I shop online now.. I just don’t like to shop..

            I give the kids $.. and they go shopping with the Grandkids for after Christmas sales shopping.. So I am all done with my Xmas shopping..Yay..

            • Miss Tia

              Everyone ran towards the people in the other car, I mean yes, they WERE the victims of that lady, but she was injured too, that’s why i went to her….i didn’t think it was right for her to be ignored like that, ya know? i sometimes wonder if she’s ever gone out on black friday again after that…..

              i like to shop but i rarely rarely have the money to buy frivolous things but even with food shopping, i know where to get the best price and i try to shop to avoid crowds—-that is also probably due to my PTSD as peoples with anxiety don’t really like crowds….and shopping online is GREAT!!!! no lines, easier comparison shopping, no exposure to germs, you can get free shipping and stay in your pjs! 🙂

            • GlibWog

              OMG.. Thank God you were there Tia… I hate crowds.. HATE them.. They give me Anxiety that over rides my meds sometimes… errrrrrrgh…

              Oh absolutely.. Online shopping has changed a lot of people’s lives.. Woo hoo.. xoox

            • Miss Tia

              yeah, i don’t think anyone needs an anxiety condition to hate crowds!!! then on today you have crowds with MOB MENTALITY!!! back then when this happened the mob mentality hadn’t taken affect yet, but the stay up all night til the stores opened was in full swing!! there is so much more valuable in life than THINGS…..

            • GlibWog

              OMG yes.. One thing that I am not is materialistic.. Labels? Who cares..Never been a label whore.. ( just a whore..hahahaha)

            • Miss Tia

              me too!!! 😀 HAHA!!

            • GlibWog

              hahahhahhhaha

          • Verve

            Baffling. I went out once to a 5AM opening a Walmarts, just to see it. I was kind of disappointed, maybe a 100 people in line? So I went in and walked around; didn’t buy anything. Glad you didn’t get hurt, we need our TiaTweets!

            • Miss Tia

              Yeah, baffling is a great word for it…..i’ve been watching some of the videos from today and i don’t GET IT….why are people acting like that over things they DO NOT NEED?! i think i’m missing something? cuz i don’t get it…..

              if only people like that took that much ‘passion’ towards say, helping their kids with homework? reading a book with their children? perhaps helping those less fortunate who could only DREAM of someday owning a 2nd hand tv with bunny ears instead of the flat screens that people were tasering each other over for today?

              i mean, i really try not to judge, but when you are getting into FISTICUFFS in a walmart over a tv, seriously?! take a step back please……

            • Verve

              You are a fine person, so don’t worry when you chide them (and if I cross the line, do not hesitate to call me on it, either.). You get an 8/10 from me on quality. You rock as hard as anyone else here. Keep it up!

            • Miss Tia

              thanks!! 🙂

    • KJP in Portland

      (((hugs))). A very typical story of what our nation has come to. It happens every year out here; the accidents, the shopping camp-outs, the poor workers who are forced to be at their stores at like, midnight for the DAY shift.

      And, goddammit! My classical radio station is playing Christmassy music all damn day, I just want to shoot them. So, I deftly moved the dial on my beautiful 1964 Fisher tube stereo to the JAZZ station. Kinda more appropriate for today, heh!

      Well, lovely Miss Tia, I am glad you were alright after that encounter. We have an outlet mall a mile from here and I am NOT going near that thing the next 2 days!

      I’m glad you’re fine and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

      • Miss Tia

        Oh my classic rock channel switch to ALL xmas music like 2 weeks ago!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! They’ve done this for the last few years and it pisses me off beyond belief—-and countless others. Why can’t they just play regular music and through in xmas songs every once in awhile? I’d be alright with that, but 24/7??? Starting mid-november?! No, just no!

  • Illinoisian

    Just returned from helping to host a Thanksgiving dinner for eighty of the Red Cross volunteers who are working in the tornado devastated area nearby. They are from all over the country and away from their own families (and will be for quite a while longer). We gave them a warm welcome, a home made holiday dinner, our thanks for their presence here, and the opportunity to visit with each other over a holiday meal. Meeting them tonight was an experience I won’t ever forget. One woman said it was the seventeenth disaster she had worked and her second Thanksgiving spent away from home. What a wonderful group of compassionate people! I’ve had a memorable Thanksgiving and a chance to be reminded of what’s best in human nature.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all of you here in the Bunker.

    • Robert Eckert

      And not a single yellow-shirted Volunteer Minister among them, I am sure.

      • TXCowgirl

        Very quick, you are!

      • sugarplumfairy

        They prefer raw meat..

        • Captain Howdy

          BAM!

      • Illinoisian

        No indication that any are in the area.

      • GlibWog

        and if any showed up..they would just take supplies from others and pass them around as their own.

    • Captain Howdy

      Good for you, and did any of the Red Cross volunteers ask you to feel their finger?

      • Illinoisian

        Is that a reference to the ‘touch assist’ that is the major service provided by Co$ VMs in disaster areas?

        • Captain Howdy

          Yes it is.

          • Illinoisian

            Something makes me think that this is not the kind of area, climate (we’ve had some bitter cold lately) and population mix that would attract a Co$ ‘disaster response’.

            • Captain Howdy

              Miscarriage only sends the Vulture Ministers to exotic high visibility disasters.

    • Eclipse-girl

      That is a very kind thing to do. i am sure the volunteers appreciated it.

    • GlibWog

      And that is the true story of not only Thanksgiving.. but the definition of being a Humanitarian .. Thank you

      Mr. Lincoln…

  • pronoia

    Hope everyone had a wonderful thanksgiving!

    No wonder Bert Fields was able to laugh at the Tomkat Project. He is right in the middle of what has got to be the most absurd chapter of a long ridiculous Tom Cruise saga. Calling tabloid publishers Nazis and equating scientologists like Tom Cruise with persecuted European Jewery. Talk about pathetic.

  • Charlotte

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2515181/Katie-Holmes-spill-beans-marriage-Tom-Cruise-libel-case.html

    I hope KH is happy this Thanksgiving to have her daughter with her, safe and sound.

    • media_lush

      aaah, the perils of the refresh {posted the same link}

      • Charlotte

        I’d say ‘great minds’, but I wouldn’t dream of comparing my mere mortal noggin’ with the beauteousness that is yours.

  • media_lush

    mail hinting that Katie Holmes happy to spill the beans in Baeur media case

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2515181/Katie-Holmes-spill-beans-marriage-Tom-Cruise-libel-case.html

    • Noni Mause

      Hmmmm…. I wonder what sort of beans Ms Holmes might be able to spill…. just off the top of my head I’d be thinking: confirmation of TC’s level of seniority within the church; the level of scrutiny and control she was under; plans for auditing her 6yr old and why she thought that was a bad idea; her personal view as to its value; any conversations b/w TC & DM she might have been privy to (there must have been some world domination stuff, come on) – if she’s going to give evidence they’ll try and settle for sure.

      • media_lush

        … the turkey baster story when Tommy Davis stayed over one night?

        • Noni Mause

          Ewwwwww….no, like really, EWWWW!

          • KJP in Portland

            I’d think it was more like Dave, Tommy and the turkey baster! Ewww! Gaggg!

    • GlibWog

      The stupidest thing this guy has done is to bring this Lawsuit.. Yes.. Abandoned is a strong word..I agree.. It is semantics. He chose Scn over Suri.. Period.

      He was in the country but did not take the time to connect with her in person. He has his own plane for God’s sake..

      His ego couldn’t take the Image hit ..and just like DM he brought out the big guns..but his plan backfired.

      If Katie testifies.. GAME OVER.. Case dropped.

  • NeverIn

    Watching Sarah Silverman’s new comedy set “We are Miracles” on HBO. She talks about Scientology.

    “It’s no more batshit crazy than, like, every single religion. It’s just new, you know.”

    She continues on this theme.

    I’m so disappointed.

  • mo-ron hubbard

    Thanks for the continued and deep insight into the cult. It amazes me how so many smart people can can believe that one jerk’s writings are 100% perfect and correct. Forget about science or anything else including your own common sense. What are the odds that one person knows absolutely everything about everything? They really do think he was a god. But I have been there, so I know how easy it is to be a sheeple. I sincerely thank the proverbial god for the internet and guys like you, Tony, Jefferson and all the rest (you know who you are).

  • DodoTheLaser

    It reads like a great satire, but apparently it’s not.
    What a beauty.

    • KJP in Portland

      Oh sure, 15,000-20,000 ‘members’ clearing the planet with bulldozers!…I don’t give you guys one block’s distance from your tactical starting point for clearing anything but brush and weeds. Go on, get your bulldozer lined up, with your ‘legion’ of ‘clearance’ warriors and then, watch the drones and B-2s clear your bulldozer and the Earth of your CULT once and for all.

      You guys are really swilling and guzzling the Kool-Aid these days.

      You can’t even ‘clear’ your Super Powerz event with only 3,000 in attendance. (K)eep (S)cientology (W)andering off a cliff!

      • mo-ron hubbard

        The only thing they are trying to “clear the planet” of is money.

    • i-Betty

      Where did you find this, Dodo?

    • shasha40

      Wow ! Delusional comes to mind …

  • mo-ron hubbard

    “At some point, Mike Rinder tells me, Cruise complained about one of the
    “orgs,” saying that it was too shabby to take one of his celebrity
    friends. Rinder says that at the time, 2002/2003, there were three orgs
    that needed replacing anyway.”

    So all this “ideal org” shit boils down to Miscavage trying to impress Tom Cruise. That’s why so many people have been regged to death and literally worked to the bone. Considering the psychopathy of DM, it makes perfect sense to me. Now it all fits together.

  • DodoTheLaser

    There is new petition:
    “FBI: Investigate the Scientology cult”
    http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/FBI_Investigate_the_Scientology_cult/?copy
    Feel free to sign. It might work. You never know.

    • KJP in Portland

      I just email ‘signed’ the petition. I don’t know if the petition will be enough, but every chance I can get to dismember Scabatology; I will do so. In solidarity with The Cause, I signed the petition.

      BUNKERITES, please go to Dodo’s link and, if so inclined, sign the petition.

      Thank you in advance,

      KJP

      • DodoTheLaser

        I saw your signature. Thank you, brother K!

        • KJP in Portland

          Anything like this, and the CL slayings, I am always more than happy to help with! My pleasure!

    • Interested

      Just signed.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Thank you very much, Interested!

        • GlibWog

          Signed sweet Dodo.. make sure that you post this on today’s post..

          • i-Betty

            Hello, sweetheart. I heard your daughter had been in touch and I am so happy for you. What a lovely Thanksgiving gift 🙂 xxx

            • GlibWog

              I was just going to come smooch you.. Yay Betty.. I am so happy. I haven’t gone to bed yet.. I’ve been up all night..haha… I just couldn’t sleep I was just too excited..

              It was a fabulous Thanksgiving present..absolutely.. We are starting over.. new day for us! <3 Baby

            • i-Betty

              Good grief, tiny woman! Get to bed! 😛

              Seriously, I’m thrilled for you. I know how devastated you’ve been by it all. 2014 will be a good year, Baby, I have a feeling 🙂

              xxx

            • GlibWog

              OK.. first off.. Tiny woman..hahahhahah if you saw me you would NOT call me a tiny woman.. you silly woman..

              Yep.. 2014 is going to be a fabulous year.. I just know it..

              After about a half hr into our conversation I said to her.. ” I almost booked a hotel in Detroit ( an hr from where she lives.. but close to Airport for me)

              had you drive up to meet me.. Lock the Door until we kissed and made up. or one of us was dead. ( OMG that sounds awful..) but I never heard her laugh so hard.

    • Charlotte

      signed

  • i-Betty

    WE BELIEVE THAT DISCONNECTION IS CRUEL AND WRONG

    Helpline:

    1-866-XSEAORG – The call is completely free and can be made from any public telephone

    If you’re a Scientologist reading this and you are having doubts about your religion, whether it be the doctrine, the incessant, relentless regging, or the leadership, but are afraid to leave because it’s all you’ve known, or you’re afraid of what to expect on the ‘outside’, please give the number on Baby’s sign (below) a call; it’s totally free. You can speak anonymously and in strict confidence to somebody who can help you, and will receive non-judgmental moral support, as well as real advice for setting up your new life and getting back on your feet.

    I promise you, the outside world isn’t the enemy. As in all walks of life, some people are idiots, but most people are kind, hard working, honest, loving individuals, just living their lives. Many, many people have already left Scientology and are living happy, fulfilling, peaceful lives filled with family and friends – old and new – who love them. They, too, felt your fears as they began their break away from the church. Some took a leap of faith and discovered that the landing was soft, welcoming and forgiving. Some needed to take baby steps. But they all moved in one direction: towards the door.

    For them, every day is now an adventure and they are the architects of their own lives.

    You may be feeling:

    Sadness and loss over saying “goodbye” to those ideals in the group you thought you could admire, the fellow members you thought were your true friends, or the time and money spent following something which turned out to be false…

    Fear, that this may have been your last hope for happiness, success, enlightenment, or your eternity; that you are no longer protected by the powers of your leader and are vulnerable to evil; that you will make bad decisions for yourself without the group’s guidance, or that you will be punished for leaving…

    Loneliness, at the thought of leaving intensive relationships, and now needing to reconnect with family and friends who live in a manner that your religion criticized…

    Confusion, about what to believe, and how to make good decisions for yourself and your future…

    Guilt, possibly associated with having broken ties to loved ones, or for having recruited others into Scientology…

    Shame, when realizing you were involved in an organisation that maybe made you behave in a way that you’re not proud of…

    If Auditing and Training are still important to you they are both available outside the church, but without any of the hoops attached which you are currently expected to jump through…it is cheaper, and there will be no sec checking.

    It might help you to hear stories from others who were in your exact same situation. There is a great website called The Big List That Left Scientology. Here is the link: https://sites.google.com/site/biglistthatleftscientology/ Click on the alphabetical letters across the top to find people you may have known, and to read some inspirational stories.

    You might also like to look at the “Dear Scientologist” series of letters written by ex-Scientologists which are specifically tailored to be free of any reference to OT materials. They are beautifully written and might begin to help you make sense of your questions and confusion. Here is the link: http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/dear-scientologist2.htm

    Last, but by no means least, the Freeloader Debt is NOT legally enforceable – that means they can’t make you pay it.

    Call the Toll Free number. It might just be the first step to the rest of your life.

    And call your family. Please. They never stopped loving you and hoping that one day you would come back to them. The Christmas holidays are near. Give them a call, send them your love. No guilt, no shame.

    We wish you so much luck and love.

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      I haven’t seen so many of these lately. Good to see one again 🙂

      • GlibWog

        Hi Johnny.. yes.. I was thinking the same thing.. I have a big feeling GAT 11 will cause massive blows..

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          Let’s hope so. They need to know there is help on the outside.

      • i-Betty

        Ah bless you, I’ve been trying not to post them in active blogs because they take up so much space, so I’ve been posting them on previous days’ threads 🙂

  • DamOTclese2

    This “suppression” nonsense is amusing, because if you look at who us “suppressing” the criminal enterprise, look no further than Helena Kobrin, Kendrick Moxon, and Ava Parquett in the mid 1990s and early 2000s, they were the idiots most responsible for activating free speech advocates and human rights advocates.

    Now we have that psychopath loon David Miscavige who is Scientology’s #1 worse “suppressive.” Amusing.

  • DamOTclese2

    Yeah, the stupid criminal’s “problems” in Philadephia have been on Facebook as well, everyone laughing at the clowns who shoveled over money to try to buy the thing are now being ordered to shell out more money to try to fix it. Wish the city would seize the property and turn it in to something useful.

  • DamOTclese2

    And in Joburg, the org was in such a bad neighborhood, a church member had actually been killed in a random act of violence.

    And did the insane criminals start screaming about “religious persecution?” You bet they did, yes.

  • underwaterface

    I was just thinking how it is kind of a shame that this religious group is such a total bust because the name/word “Scientology” is pretty awesome, and it will never be able to be used again by anybody for anything!

  • Bella Legosi

    By the way the pic of the chuckling Tom Cruise makes me want to slap him in his goofy tooth face!

  • cmp679

    I’d prefer to have someone intelligently cross-examine Jeff’s opinions, rather than Tony who already agree’s with him. After all, we wouldn’t want to think about Hubbard’s ideas in black and white.