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How Does Scientology Take Over a Mind? Jefferson Hawkins Tells Us About “PTS”

MindControlJefferson Hawkins was once the top marketing executive for the Church of Scientology and helped it reach its greatest extent with the famous “volcano” TV ads in the 1980s. He’s told his tale of getting into and out of the church with his excellent books Counterfeit Dreams and Leaving Scientology, and he’s helping us understand the upside-down world of Scientology “ethics.”

Where are you taking us this week, Jeff?

JEFFERSON: Last week, we looked at the first half of Chapter 7, all about the Suppressive Person. This week, we’re taking a look at the second part of that chapter, Potential Trouble Source, or PTS.

THE BUNKER: Walk us through the concept of PTS and why it was first devised.

JEFFERSON: One of the hallmarks of any authoritarian group or cult is information control, or, as Robert Jay Lifton calls it, milieu control. They have to be able to control the information that their members receive, and particularly to block them from receiving any negative information about the group or its leaders. An authoritarian group or cult can only exist in a bubble of controlled, positive information.

THE BUNKER: I can understand how that is done in, say, North Korea, where the government controls the media, but how do you accomplish that in a free society, where information is readily available — particularly with the Internet?

JEFFERSON: As Orwell pointed out in his novel 1984, “mind control” is not someone else controlling your mind, like a robot. True mind control is the person controlling his or her own mind according to the dictates of the group. This is done using thought-stopping mechanisms. Orwell uses the term “crimestop” to describe this. He says,

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought.

In Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan says:

If information transmitted to a cult member is perceived as an attack on either the leader, the doctrine, or the group, a hostile wall goes up. Members are trained to disbelieve any criticism…

The SP-PTS “technology” is how Scientologists are trained to avoid, ignore and not listen to anything critical of Scientology or Hubbard. This thought-stopping began with the definition of a Suppressive Person, which we covered last week. This is an evil being who seeks to suppress, or squash, “any betterment activity or group.” According to Hubbard’s definition, they delight in keeping people down and preventing people from getting better. A Potential Trouble Source, then, is

A person who is in some way connected to and being adversely affected by a suppressive person. He is called a potential trouble source because he can be a lot of trouble to himself and to others.

If you are connected to a SP in any way, if anyone you know is critical of Scientology or Hubbard, then you are “PTS.”

THE BUNKER: And that includes reading any negative news stories, watching negative TV programs, or visiting negative sites on the internet — like our own Underground Bunker.

JEFFERSON: Yes, anything that is critical of Scientology is, of course, the work of an SP. If you read it or watch it or listen to it, you are therefore “PTS.”

THE BUNKER: Be warned, readers! So are there penalties for being PTS?

JEFFERSON: Absolutely. If one is exposed to any negative information, whether from family members or from the media, one is supposed to immediately report oneself. Hubbard says,

It is a crime to be or become PTS without reporting it.

THE BUNKER: A crime! That’s pretty harsh. So, you report yourself, then what happens?

JEFFERSON: Well, you get suspended from all auditing or training. In effect, you can’t get any Scientology services if you are PTS. Hubbard says:

a person who is PTS may not receive processing or training while PTS.

At the beginning of this section, Hubbard introduces the idea of the “roller-coaster case.” The person has “case gains” from Scientology, then loses them because of invalidation by the SP. They go up and down like a roller coaster because of this evil person who is feeding them negative, critical information about Scientology. The person’s “progress up the Bridge” is therefore blocked as long as they remain connected to the SP, so they have to handle the condition before they can be admitted back onto their Scientology services. In essence, they are ostracized until they handle or sever the SP connection.

THE BUNKER: I see that there are three different “types” of PTS listed here. How does this work?

JEFFERSON: Type I PTS means “the SP on the case is right in present time, actively suppressing the person.” This is the simplest to handle. The person is asked if anyone is invalidating him or his gains or Scientology, such as a friend or family member. Once the person is found, they are told to “handle or disconnect.”

With a Type II PTS, “the apparent suppressive person in present time is only a restimulator for the actual suppressive.” That means that the person who they think is the SP isn’t really the SP, they just remind them of a real SP back on the time track.

This, by the way, is how they handle anyone who names Hubbard or Miscavige as their SP. Hubbard says:

…if the person starts naming org personnel or other unlikely persons as SP, the Ethics Officer must realize that he is handling a Type II PTS.

Get that: if they name Hubbard, Miscavige, or org seniors, they “can’t possibly be the real SP” so they have to look elsewhere.

A Type III PTS is described as “entirely psychotic” and “beyond the facilities of orgs.” Treatment for a Type III is “a relatively safe environment and quiet and rest and no treatment of a mental nature at all.” This is where the “Introspection Rundown” came in later. It was supposed to handle “Type IIIs.”

I saw a few of these cases while I was in Scientology, people who had been labeled “Type III.” These were usually people who insisted on leaving, refused all handling and in some cases had become violent. And they were definitely isolated from the group.

THE BUNKER: So how is a PTS condition resolved?

JEFFERSON: Now we get into the “handle or disconnect” section. The person is told that they must either handle the SP or disconnect from them.

Hubbard gives various steps one can do to “handle.” The first step

…may consist of requiring him to actually answer his mail or write the person a pleasant good roads, good weather note or to realistically look at how he estranged them.

Then:

Fill in any vacuum of missing data with factual data about Scientology and to prove any lies, rumors and false data encountered to be false.

To do this effectively, Hubbard tells them to get packs of current materials from their local Ethics Officer or from OSA. He also mentions the book, What is Scientology, and a “cassette” called Can We Ever Be Friends. For those not familiar with the latter, this was a recording scripted by Hubbard to supposedly handle antagonistic parents or family members. He even dictated which “emotional tone level” each line was to be delivered in. It was originally narrated by old-time Scientologist Fred Hare, and was later re-recorded using the cheap-game-show-announcer voice of Jeff Pomerantz. The result, in both cases, was a corny, obnoxious, overblown piece of crap that most Scientologists were too embarrassed to play for their family members.

THE BUNKER: There’s a real oddity with this “handling” step. As we saw last week, Hubbard described an SP as a totally evil individual who hates and attacks any effort to help mankind, who cannot be helped or improved, and who hates the thought of anyone getting better. So how would writing pleasant letters or educating them on Scientology handle an SP?

JEFFERSON: Exactly. Something doesn’t add up with this proposed handling. It becomes obvious, as you read this section, that he is NOT in fact talking about some irredeemably evil, antisocial being who is out to destroy all mankind, as he earlier described. He is talking about the Scientologist’s friends and family who may be antagonistic or critical towards Scientology. He advises Scientologists “Don’t create antagonism.” Well, that would be a stupid statement to make regarding an SP — the SP is already as antagonistic as he’s going to get — if you go by Hubbard’s definition.

Remember that he earlier gave Hitler as an historical example of an SP. Well, consider if Jews in Germany had followed this “handling” advice and wrote “good roads, good weather” letters to Hitler and sent him educational materials on Judaism to handle any false information he may have received. You start to see how ineffective this would be in handling what Hubbard has described as an SP. It becomes obvious that he is not taking about handling antisocial, evil beings here, he is talking about handling friends and family who are critical of Scientology — an entirely different thing.

And it also becomes obvious that “handle” means only one thing — get them to stop being critical of Scientology.

My mom was “handled” in that she learned not to be critical of Scientology in the presence of me or my brother. She had her opinions but never expressed them to us, and so was able to keep communicating to us. Many parents and family members are coached to do the same thing — not to be openly critical of Scientology to their Scientologist family members, no matter how they personally feel. They know that if they do so, they will be disconnected.

THE BUNKER: And so we get to disconnection, which Tommy Davis insisted does not exist.

JEFFERSON: It’s a key part of the thought-stopping. In Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan says:

Ultimately, if the family of a new member is critical enough, he will be instructed to break off all contact. Destructive cults cannot tolerate opposition of any kind. Either people agree with them (or are seen as potential converts) or they are the enemy.

This section is an apology for the practice of disconnection, and contains the arguments that Scientology commonly uses to justify the practice — when they are not denying that it exists! It is presented as “a fundamental right.” Anyone, we are told, has the right to accept or reject communication. This principle, we are told, “exists in any group.” The essay mentions that the practice of disconnection was earlier cancelled “because of misuse” but was reinstated as “we cannot deny Scientologists this right.”

THE BUNKER: Was it actually cancelled?

JEFFERSON: It was publicly cancelled by Hubbard in 1968 as the result of a broad public survey that found that it was wildly unpopular. It was part of a “reform” effort designed to handle Scientology’s horrible PR at that time. According to some, it was Miscavige who reinstated it — for the same reason it was originally devised. People were getting bad news from friends and family members and it had to be controlled and stopped. If you’re going to create an information bubble that excludes any negative or critical ideas, you have to have a mechanism like this.

THE BUNKER: We hear “PTS” used these days as a catch-all justification for some of Scientology’s most dramatic failures.

JEFFERSON: Of course. Since Scientology “always works,” Scientologists need handy excuses for when it obviously and dramatically doesn’t. The most common excuse is “it wasn’t applied properly.” But right behind that is “He/she was PTS.” We hear this when a high level OT commits suicide, like Steve Brackett, kills someone, like Rex Fowler, or defects, like Leah Remini (and countless others). “They were PTS.” It excuses anything, because Hubbard made some pretty sweeping statements about the PTS condition. He said,

The first thing to know is that CASE WORSENING IS CAUSED ONLY BY A PTS SITUATION. There never will be any other reason…

All institutional cases are PTSes. The whole of insanity is wrapped up on this one fact…

…all illness in greater or lesser degree and all foul-ups stem directly and only from a PTS condition.

So it’s a handy, thought-stopping excuse for the most egregious failures.

“PTS technology,” I believe, is the core of Scientology’s thought-stopping control system. Scientologists are deathly afraid of being declared PTS, of being taken off “the Bridge” or forced to disconnect from family or friends. So they avoid negative or critical information at all costs. This means they are trained to police their own information bubble and not let any negativity in. You can make any amount of critical information available to them and they literally will not read it. They will not touch it. They are afraid to. They have learned their own version of Orwell’s crimestop: the technique of “stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought.”

 
——————–

Scientology and Apartheid

With the rest of the world, we are remembering today the life of a truly great man who left the world a better place than he found it.

Nelson Mandela was a towering giant of the 20th Century. L. Ron Hubbard, not so much.

Professor Dave Touretzky has preserved some interesting pages about the history of Scientology’s support for apartheid. You might give them a look if you have some extra time.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on December 6, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

 

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  • Eclipse-girl

    Holiday Card Project

    with thanks to From Poland with Love, Ruby and Miss Tia

    http://misstia.com/mailtech.html

    • ThetaBara

      I got my cards this afternoon! Looking forward to writing them over the weekend.
      Thanks to all who have contributed! More names and addresses (org postings please, not doxing home address) are welcome. You can comment via disqus over there, easy peasy.

  • SandiCorrena

    OT: I think the 2nd interview this morning went well; my recruiter told me they raved about me so much after the first interview she felt certain it was going to happen….however no calls yet. Going to be a long weekend, thank goodness I have you all to distract me.

    • Great White Clam

      Everybody should have a job. Thats all I’m gonna say. I aint got one. Probbly never land another. I am unemployasble!!!!!!! LOfrikinL

      PTSD, yopu see….

    • Eclipse-girl

      (((HUGS))) we are sending you positive thoughts.

    • PoisonIvyHerself

      Great news!

  • MaxSpaceman

    The madness that is David Miscavige – the sociopath, the Liar – the thing of it is Davey is merely duplicating L. Ron Hubbard, from whom Davey took the reins of $cientology to control completely for the past 27 years.

    After more than 10 years of exceptional monetary success in the 1950s into the 1960s, L. Ron Hubbard gave a lecture.

    SHSBC. 2 February 1965. Saint Hill Special Briefing Course. By L. Ron Hubbard.

    “… I found that psychologists were wrong again. And although that isn’t news, it’s interesting to find a point. I’ve been told by them that animals don’t commit suicide and I’ve even thought myself that animals didn’t commit suicide, and that’s not true. I ran across an animal that committed suicide and he was a bear, a big Alaskan brown bear, that they had in a zoo down in Las Palmas.

    “And that bear, a few days later, climbed up to the top of the cage, all god-knows-how-many pounds of him, in this horrible state of not being able to walk, he climbs up to the top of the cage, gets to the total top crown of the cage, and drops on the cement. That was the end of the bear. The most forthright case of suicide I think I ever saw in my life. So apparently, animals do commit suicide, because he sure did.”

    • Eclipse-girl

      having talked with Derek about baby animals ( and Derek I apologize)

      This tale make me ill.

      • ThetaBara

        If it makes you feel any better, it is highly likely to be completely made up.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I realized that. I just do not like the idea of it.

          • ThetaBara

            I’m with you there. It takes a disturbed mind to come up with this kind of shit, and LRH could (and did) go on for days about all sorts of stories like that one.

    • Great White Clam

      Excellent find of even more words to be used against the clam emopire!

      • Mooser

        As much sympathy as I have for a captive bear, has anybody determined if this actually did take place, or if there is even a zoo in Las Palmas?

  • John P.

    Following up on articles in the last couple days related to the new Mark VIII e-meter:

    I responded just now to a question on WhyWeProtest about why the cult might be requiring people to buy the new Mark VIII e-meter for cash rather than by using money they may already have on deposit with the cult. Some have speculated that this means the cult’s finances are in precarious shape. Though that is certainly possible, I think it’s impossible to tell from this one data point alone.

    However, this development suggests that Miscavige is managing the business of Scientology to achieve only one goal, a financial metric that is utterly useless in the real world, but one that allows him to feel like less of a failure when he looks at the numbers than other numbers in the cult.

    We also look at what moves Miscavige might make next to continue to grow the business using his management criteria.

    http://www.johnpcapitalist.com/2013/12/why-buy-e-meter-for-cash/

    • Great White Clam

      JohnP, You mentioned “why the cult might be requiring people to buy the new Mark VIII e-meter
      for cash rather than by using money they may already have on deposit
      with the cult”

      They SPENT THE FRICKIN MONIE! IT AINT THERE! ITS GONE. VAMOOSH! WHOOSH! OUT THE DOOR!

      Thats why new cash is required. IMHO

      • MaxSpaceman

        Don’t bank on that, GwC.
        Marc Headley has stated here in The Bunker in past post that the Cult is sitting on $2 billion in nearly liquid assets. Not counting all the Landlord’s Office Real Estate that the Cult owns all over the world. Not counting the “donations” money they are holding on account for people who prepay for courses and auditing.

        • Great White Clam

          Good point, MaxSpaceman. Nevahetheless, I really do think that it’s about time that tiny David Miscavige experiences an involuntary bowel movement.

          And this development might just be the suppository needed to relax David Miscavige’s anal oreface in fullfullment of that tech.

          Damn. I didnt really want to say that…….

        • Noni Mause

          Agreed. They’re well flush. They outlay none of their money on the ‘ideal orgs’ themselves and from what I read, pay the bare minimum of upkeep on the buildings. I wonder whether Miscavige is doing what he can to increase his ‘skip town’ money.

          • Mooser

            I’m sure he’s aware that frozen assets are in his future. He needs to launder and salt away what he can.

        • Room 101

          Yes, money is not their problem. They have tons of it. They’re just very good as stacking more.

          • MaxSpaceman

            Everyone can get a handle on that fact. “Money is not The Cult’s problem.”

            Right now. And for the foreseeable future. It is other things that will bring the end to The Cult of $cientology.

            It will *not* end because Dave loses all the money made from 1952 through 2012. A full 60 years. You’re dreaming if you hold out hope for a money drain that will ruin the cherch.

            • Lurkness

              Class action lawsuits for “repayments” could drain the swamp fairly quickly. Throw in some fraud suits over IAS and other fraud schemes “refunds” could also have a very significant impact on the reserves.

        • Ruby

          It is the local org that has to pay to restock the meter when someone takes it off that local org’s account. This has nothing to do with what the “mother cherch” has in its reserves. And local money is spent weekly. It is not held anywhere but on paper, giving the person a “credit” for future services. The cashola is gone the week it is paid.

        • Robert Eckert

          The billion or two does include the money the {church} is supposedly “holding on account for people who prepay”, which gets sent upline immediately. In a sane organization, such money would be kept in segregated accounts, because refunds could be demanded, but this is not a sane organization. It is possible that the liability, if everybody demanded refund all at once, would exceed the liquid assets.

          • MaxSpaceman

            Then it’s $2 billion if on account is included.

            I don’t think your accurate with that. Headley stated it differently. Hubbard left $650 million to the cherch in 1986. And revenue was pouring in from 1986 – 2000. So the $650 was invested and turned into double that, all the while income was surging.

            If – and the cherch doesn’t refund $ without excruciating teeth pulling, so it’s unlikely like in *never* – everyone as demanded all at once – another thing that’ll never happen – there would still be $1 billion left.

            But who knows for sure. You and I don’t. 🙂

            • Robert Eckert

              No, I don’t know, but I bet the $650M when LRH died was likewise heavily encumbered, in theory, as much of it was prepaid for services that would never happen.

              “the cherch doesn’t refund $ without excruciating teeth pulling” But the Garcia case has the potential to make it so that it is no longer up to them when they refund $

            • MaxSpaceman

              In theory doesn’t count. The $650 million was never disbursed to any person or entity *except* Co$ corporations. It wasn’t used to pay anything, as bills were paid by gross income.

            • Robert Eckert

              The debts, while only in theory until a court forces them to refund the money, could suddenly become very much debts in practice. Davey is painfully aware how suddenly that money could evaporate, if it is not smuggled out of the corporate accounts first.

          • grundoon

            “The billion or two does include the money the {church} is supposedly holding on account for people who prepay, which gets sent upline immediately.” No, that is a misconception. Prepaid funds are not “held on account.” The only thing held is an obligation, on paper, to someday deliver services equal to the money received, or a refund. A large portion of the money goes uplines immediately, never to be seen again, and the rest is immediately used for the org’s current expenses. But the future obligation does not go uplines; it remains with the org that originally collected the prepayment. If the customer demands a refund, that org will have to scrape up the money from its own current income at that time. Money will not come back down from uplines. Therefore the “prepayments on account” could be disastrous for the org.

            • Robert Eckert

              The court is not going to view it that way. The “Dallas org” (or whatever) is not a legally separate corporate entity from CSI or RTC. If there is a class action demanding refund of the prepayments, it is the corporations whose accounts will be drained.

      • John P.

        That is the obvious explanation that springs to mind. But the point of the article is that, when you understand how the finances work, it’s not the only possible explanation. It’s impossible to conclude that the gross cash balance is close to zero based on this behavior pattern. You’d have to develop other data points to determine whether reserves are small or not.

        Unless the cult has been losing significant amounts of money for years (which I doubt), most of the capital expenditures for the cult have been to buy real estate for the Ideal Org scam. But that only happens when the cult has raised substantially more cash than is needed, so that’s a profitable operation from Day One. So it’s hard to see how they could have depleted the reserves significantly at this point unless they’re bleeding out the back door in a way that nobody can see…

        • Mooser

          “But that only happens when the cult has raised substantially more cash
          than is needed, so that’s a profitable operation from Day One.”

          And how did that work out for Bialystock and Bloom?

          • Lemont

            Lawyers can be spenny

        • Anonymous

          Be careful not to conflate Sea Org reserves with each independent local org’s cash reserves as the two have nothing to do with each other on a practical, daily basis.

          Sea Org reserves could be screamingly high while the whole Class V network collapses into insolvency (which it virtually has.)

          I’m not taking any position here on why cash is being requested for meters, which I’ve already covered on your site this morning.

          Just want to tease apart the reserves issue as a general topic.

          • Great White Clam

            sage advise

        • Great White Clam

          There are also significant legal expenses. VERY significant legal costs……..

        • grundoon

          There’s no “gross cash balance.” If there were, it would be vulnerable to legal judgments, fines and taxes. Instead, each organizational unit is a separate corporation with its own accounts. Those accounts are kept close to empty; income is immediately used for expenses or transferred to a higher organizational unit, which again expends it immediately or sends it further uplines. When the money reaches the top, it is dispersed over a multitude of shell corporations, slush funds and reserve accounts, mostly offshore; this is David Miscavige’s personal domain, up above the firmament of LRH policy. All the orgs below Int and Gold are perpetually cash starved, living from hand to mouth; LRH deliberately set it up this way. The finances of delivery orgs reveal nothing about the state of Miscavige’s reserves.

          • John P.

            You’re undoubtedly right that the money is divided among many accounts and in different locations. That’s true in the treasury operations of legitimate large companies as well. Regardless of where the money is located and in which corporate entities it is stored, Miscavige gets a roll-up management report of the reserve balances as a single number, which he manages to. This is no different from how any legit business would do things.

            Incidentally, it will be fun to watch Miscavige’s surprise when he discovers that with the reality of electronic banking in the post-9/11 era, it is possible for the Feds to move very quickly to seize bank accounts, even complex networks of accounts such as he has created. They have at their fingertips the history of accounts that have transferred to each other, and they have network analysis software that can unravel the complex network of structures the cult uses, and they can do it in seconds, instead of in years.

            It’s entirely possible that given the previous FBI investigations into the cult, that the analysis has been done and awaits only the press of a button to implement the seizure. The world has changed a lot since the supposedly impenetrable corporate structure was set up 30 years ago, and I doubt the cult has kept pace.

      • Ruby

        100% correct!

    • Robert Eckert

      I think it’s quite simple: he plans to skedaddle soon, so nothing about the future revenue streams means anything. He is looting the last bits of cash he can get anyone to fork over, is transferring all money that he can out of the corporate accounts of RTC/CSI/CST etc. to untraceable accounts only he knows about, and from Kaohsiung will go to his hidey-hole, wherever that is.

      • Ardent

        I agree Robert, I think he can at least see the writing on the wall, and is preparing his getaway. I hope the federal agencies that are watching him have a plan to net him before he hits the high seas (or wherever). I despise the scumbag, and I suspect even within his bubble he can sense the march of justice coming his way.

        • Mooser

          Gosh, should Mr. Miscavige ever find it necessary (for religious reasons) to abscond, or as they say do a bunk, or shoot the moon, because of supposed financial irregularities, wouldn’t he be well advised to present a healthy Mrs. Miscavige to the world before he leaves. Or, more romantically, take her with him?
          Otherwise, people might get the wrong ideas. And there’s no statute of limitations on murder.

          • Mooser

            Besides, isn’t it traditional for the leader of Scientology to spend his declining years in hiding, oops, I mean, in religious contemplation, ministered to only by a group of vestals and living, for all his money, a poverty-stricken existence?

            • Ardent

              Why doesn’t Interpol put out a net for this bastard? I can’t believe what this cult is continually getting away with. Enough already!

        • Robert Eckert

          He’s in Taiwan as we speak (unless he is skipping an Ideal Org opening, which would be unlike him) and I think it quite possible he will not be returning. JohnP thinks it most unlikely his hidey-hole is in Asia, and I agree, but for him right now the most important thing is to be outside the United States.

          • Captain Howdy

            The reason i picked Croatia is because there appears to be no extradition treaty with the U,S, the exchange rate is 18-1 and I’m guessing that Miscavige is a racist and wouldn’t feel comfortable in a non-white country. It’s supposed to be very nice, has a growing economy and as long as the serbians can control their bloodlust, the future looks bright for Croatia.

            • Robert Eckert

              It was recently admitted to the EU, which many in the EU are now considering a mistake as it seems to be falling into the hands of crypto-fascists.

            • Captain Howdy

              Neo-fascism is on the rise all over Europe.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              didn’t Croatia have a recent problem with a lot of bank accounts disappearing. Or was that someplace else?

            • Captain Howdy

              I hearsayed that but couldn’t find anything.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              It was some news item I didn’t really get the name of the place but it was a country that was known behind the scenes as a hidey-hole for billionaires and multi-nationals to hid their money away from prying eyes and tax laws, but suddenly it seems billions of dollars just disappeared from some big players. Might have been some kind of troll or faux news.

            • KJP in Portland

              Liechtenstein? Monaco? Luxembourg?

            • Robert Eckert

              Maybe you have it confused with Cyprus?

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Yea that might be it. I think it was this:

              http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-04-09/cyprus-paved-way-fdic-approved-money-grab

              Wonder if the Dainty Miss had stashed money in Cyprus?

            • John P.

              Might you be thinking of Cyprus, where the government levied a tax on bank deposits over 100,000 Euros to stabilize the banking system? That’s certainly a “disappearing” bank account.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              I’m sure that was it. I think DM thinks he is a wonderful ‘money manager’ and if he did lose a bunch in Cyprus, then it might partly explain his ‘demand for income’.

          • Mooser

            “and I think it quite possible he will not be returning.”

            A great deal hangs, I would think, on Mrs. Miscavige’s condition. He might want to be out of the country until that blows over.

          • KJP in Portland

            Switzerland, Netherlands, maybe?

            • Robert Eckert

              He would be too extraditable in either of those countries.

            • Interested

              Forget Switzerland. Thy are so afraid of the UK and the Americans they are bankrupting themselves.

          • Ardent

            SNAKES ON A PLANE

      • Captain Howdy

        Croatia.

      • Lurkness

        Don’t think he will be running yet. No reason to at this point. Like all dictators–they don’t abdicate until there is little to no choice. Some wait too long.

        • Robert Eckert

          I would prefer him to wait too long. This might be his last clean shot to leave with a perfectly valid excuse to go overseas, and duck away now that he is in a place where he is not surrounded by a large number of people watching him.

          • ThetaBara

            Don’t give him any ideas!

    • Ruby

      I can tell you exactly why they are requiring cash as I ran treasury in an org for awhile. When people put money onto account, the money is spent that week. If the person specifically bought books or meters, the money is transferred to the “book account” which will purchase THAT WEEK, the book or meter from Bridge Publications, to replace the stock. If the money is put onto account, for services, but not paid in full, the person is given a credit onto his account. That money is spent immediately on weekly expenses of the org.
      If, down the road, someone “takes the $$ off account” for books.well….it has already been spent on org expenses. But now the Org has to come up with the dough to transfer to the book account to pay for the items from Bridge publications and replace the stock.
      As you can see, this is a bummer for the org. We always hated and discouraged people from taking $$ off account that they had not earlier, specifically earmarked for books.
      Meters are expensive. To have someone “take it off account” means that the org now has to spend $3000 -5000 to “restock” the item…and they have to do it that week. It basically takes away any $ that the org can use for paying bills, staff pay….etc…and that book $$ comes off the top and is paid first, before any $ goes to the Org.
      Rinder is right. This is an indicator that the orgs are not making any $$. They can not afford to restock a meter if a person wants to take it “off account”…thus, they HAVE to pay cash, up front.

      • John P.

        Thank you for the perspective on this. Great to hear from someone who ran finances in an org. If you’d be willing to be a source for future interview questions, please check in with me at johnpcapitalist at (sounds like “gee male”).

        It’s important to note that this phenomenon is consistent with what I’m saying about what metrics DM is paying attention to in my post. The overwhelming majority of cash received is sent “up lines” immediately before local expenses are paid. That further supports the belief that Miscavige is passionate about gross cash as the main metric he uses in thinking about the business.

        The fact that orgs are starved is the “hook” he uses to justify doing this — it is really true that the orgs can’t afford to carry an inventory of meters, since they have no cash of their own. But I think they would be doing the same thing even if they didn’t require the orgs to fund inventory locally for a product shipped by Bridge Pubs or some other headquarters entity.

        • Ruby

          Absolutely I would be willing to answer any questions you have on how the finances are run at the org level.
          I observed, over the years, more and more “payment requirements to management” that crippled our org. I can’t tell you how many firefights I got into with the “continental finance office” in Los Angeles (our senior management organization), as they were more interested in getting money to their neck of the woods than in the solvency and survival of our org. It raises the hairs on my neck just thinking about it! 🙂

          • Mooser

            “as they were more interested in getting money to their neck of the woods than in the solvency and survival of our org.”

            I wonder why that was? Why one would have thought that healthy ideal Orgs was supposed to be the point!

            • Ruby

              haha! I wonder that too.
              And Mooser, this was even before David Miscavige came up with the criminal idea of “Ideal Orgs” being funded by the public.

            • Mooser

              Does anybody besides Miscavige (and not outside hired legal help and the like) make large amounts of money out of Scientology? .

            • Ruby

              possibly the people that make commissions on regging cherch members for $$ for the IAS…Howard Becker, Michael Roberts and fellows of that ilk.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              If there is a hell, there is a special room reserved on the bottom level for these two. They will be strapped onto spiked beds over eternal fire and told they can save themselves if they just write a check…. A small check, only $10. But alas, they have no fingers.

            • Ruby

              Frankly Michael, from hearing some of the spiels that Howard has given me about his personal connection to Miscavige and his stories of Miscavige calling him with a, “Howard, I have an urgent project I need you to raise some money for now” …I’d say he is living in hell as we speak.

            • Drat

              I would rather have them donate for all eternity. And no matter how much they give or how hard they work, they will always be told at the next status level they will be free. And the goal posts will always recede toward the horizon. Every time. It will NEVER be enough.

            • Ardent

              The lawyers for sure. Anyone else? I really have no idea. But the whole think reeks. Snake Oil.

          • MaxSpaceman

            And that – “payment requirements to management” – is just exactly why the “mother cherch” – the controlling coroporations of The Cult – have all the marbles.

          • Baby

            Ruby good Lord.. You could not pay me enough..ever.. I can’t imagine how you felt at the time..How utterly stressful.. errrrrrrrrrgh

            • Ruby

              very stressful. SOOO glad that nightmare is over.

        • grundoon

          “The overwhelming majority of cash received is sent “up lines” immediately before
          local expenses are paid. That further supports the belief that Miscavige is passionate about gross cash as the main metric he uses in thinking about the business.”

          These finance policies are standard LRH tech dating back to the 1960s.

        • Ruby

          just sent you a gee male. 🙂

      • Fremdscham

        Out of curiosity I have some questions. Do they own most of the properties outright? Are there leases or mortgages? What kind of accounting system is in place? Is anything up to date software-wise? Is the entire church run off of Excel spreadsheets? I’m assuming everything is in house due to the slave labor and I also assume little formal accounting and finance education. How are scions cash/credit tracked?

        • Ruby

          I will answer as best I can. I have not been on staff for over a decade.
          Each org will be different, Some rent, some have mortgages. David Miscavige’s master plan is to have the public purchase the properties for the cherch. That is not Hubbard’s policy.
          The treasury division will have records of what people pay for and have a credit/debit record for any payments made or used. There is a whole computer system the cherch has implemented with its own programs. And yes, it’s all in house. No formal finance education…only study of the finance references that Hubbard wrote and whatever was written to teach someone about the computer system they created after Hubbard passed away.
          The members transactions are tracked by the credit/debit files kept in treasury. Every transaction done in the cherch is invoiced and copies of invoices are sent to treasury.

      • aquaclara

        Ruby, this is an excellent description of org funding. And I am intrigued, too, by the fact that the book money comes first, off the top, when an org pays its bills.

        • splog

          There’s a simple reason for that – money paid for books doesn’t belong to the org. Only money paid for auditing & training services belongs to the org.

          A parallel situation is suppliers to large supermarkets. Here in SA it’s common for somewhat new suppliers to have their stock in the store on consignment. the supermarket never paid for the stock, do not own it and assume no risk – the supplier has to insure it themselves. The supermarket pays the supplier only when the item is sold and keeps just their profit margin, but the supplier needs to be paid first.

          In an org, this works fine when books are cheap. If you have a grand on account and want 3 books at five bucks each, it’s no big deal to the org. It was like this in the 60s. But nowadays the books, lectures, meters and course packs cost much more than the service! Now we have a grand on account and people wanting to use it for 5 grand meters. Doesn’t work out so well.

          Incidentally, Miscavige is committing a Suppressive Act by making this cash-only rule, even though it makes sense. It’s a high crime to prevent public using money on account for book sales, this rule has always been read to include anything sold by the bookstore and not just literally books. I wouldn’t be surprised if he suddenly decided to take the policy 100% literally.

        • Ruby

          All money paid for books goes straight to the “book account” and it used for restock and other book related issues only.

    • Room 101

      Just to add to that, they’ve always preferred cash over taking money off account. Going back decades.

  • Room 101

    Pretty impressive over at the Good Morning America website: http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/kirstie-alley-leah-remini-39-she-39-bigot-153946028–abc-news-celebrities.html

    They’ve gotten almost 4,500 comments on the Leah/ Kirstie story. I don’t know what the common # of comments they usually get over there but that has to be pretty impressive.

    • Robert Eckert

      “Gabriel Byrne on Pope Francis: ‘He’s a Figurehead’ ” has 2,589 Comments

      “Nelson Mandela: The Inspiring Words He Told Oprah Winfrey” has 708 Comments

      “Watch This Waitress’s Reaction to a $500 Tip” has 392 Comments

      So, this seems to be a busy board in general, but the Kirstie story has really caught fire.

      • Room 101

        Thanks for the info. And yes, definitely rattled far more feathers than our Tony Ortega posse here.

        • DeElizabethan

          We are not alone, Yea! Of course we were first ,hee,hee!

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      Wow, this is Kirstie’s “couch jump moment.” Or is it the her “You don’t know the history of psychiatry, I do.” moment. Or maybe the “Whoosh, Zoom, Cackle” moment.

      • DeElizabethan

        Yes! In calling Leah an Enemy and a Bigot!

      • KJP in Portland

        It’s Kirstie’s ‘end of career moment!’ Didn’t ya know that?

        Her sitcom won’t make it to the end of the season. Each and every day, more TV watchers realize she is part of some weird cult, and her viewership retracts.

        I love it! Hell would be too nice for Kirstie…

      • Ardent

        I wish it were her ‘burst into flames’ moment. Evil anti-Semite freak.

      • media_lush

        when I first posted the interview on my blog I wrote: “…. I don’t know if Howard Stern is “playing nice” to try and get some good stuff from The Hutt or is genuinely blasé about scientology…. I think the clue is in the opening dialog he says he ‘really’ likes her new show” ….

        I’m starting to think that he deliberately pretended to be her good buddy to garner foot in mouth footage which he knew would generate interest and ratings for his show…. I mean, he said he really liked her new show for chrissakes (lulz, ed)

        • Baby

          Lush.. Stern does Not like the cult NOT for one minute.. He was buttering her up.. and she fell for it.

          Ego? and she ran with blabbering.. I can only imagine what the TV Land Executives are doing now.. OMG it’s like TC promoting War of the Worlds and only talked about Katie and Scilooooooooneytunes..

          Canned by the studio… OOOOOOOOOOOOOps night..yawn..

    • tetloj

      Good that it’s ABC too, given their historical gutlessness reporting on the cult.

    • Missionary Kid

      I watched it this morning and posted about it. Basically, Krusy was saying that Leah was distorting things because she said that disconnection existed. Krusty said that people leave and come back $cientology all the time, and there’s no such thing.

  • whenpigsswim

    Interesting post today at Marty’s site about Scientology as a Ministry of Hate and how Kirstie was a perfect example during her interview with Howard Stern – http://markrathbun.wordpress.com

    • Captain Howdy

      The comments by “Dio” are priceless. And I thought the Oracle was whacked.

      • whenpigsswim

        There are some great comments – yes! I like the one from 411 stating the Church should appoint Kirstie as their head of PR.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Are you trying to say that sex is not quantum physics?! Ho’oponopono.

        • Ardent

          Qualitative physics?

          • Missionary Kid

            Somebody called Marty’s, “Marty’s Quantum Zen Den” like LRH, he really doesn’t know physics.

    • Baby

      OMG…. I am over there..and now I know why I stopped reading a long time ago.. SPEAK ENGLISH! I can’t stand Sclillllllloneytunes garble.. ugh, ugh.. I have the basics down and I used to have an Online Scn dictionary on hand..

      I’ve forgotten more than I learned, but it is absolutely Excruciating..

      OK.. vent is over back to read..errrrrr decipher the Bull shit..errrrrrrrrrgh

      • Ardent

        Uh, Baby, I was wondering….I know, I’m probably confused. So. You were once a Scientologist?
        (looks innocently at subject)

        • Baby

          Columbo.. No.. When I was in a private college in the early 70s I had to take kineseology and anatomy classes .. for 2 years…

          Well the Prof was a Scn. and our course Book was Dianetics ( Just shoot me) A lot of the kids in the class ( I was older and had 2 babies)

          joined Scientology.. because of this Asshat.. The worst thing about this whole damn experience was that when I tried to transfer my credits to another school..They refused all 2 years of the course work because of the damn book.

          MY BFF’s sister is a Scn. been in for a long, long time.. and my step daughter who I haven’t seen since years.. I mean years..( I don’t want to give to much info)

          So I have been on the peripheral..

          I became interested when the Sister of my BFF demanded that I be kicked out of a funeral because I worked at a Mental Health facility as a counselor .. ( Evil Psych) She made quite a scene..

          PS Nothing you do is innocent Columbo..tee hee

          • DeElizabethan

            So Baby, you read and studied the basics of Dianetics. The term basics is used meaning study of all his Scientology books including Dianetics. So you can see how it could looks like you may have done the Basics, which would mostly have been done if you were a member. I am glad you didn’t get caught.

            • Baby

              I don’t remember a lot of it DeElizabethan.. First I was on Diet Pills ( Speed) back then.. and just cramming.. and staying up all night.. I was working 3rd shift..

              and going to school during the day.. I wanted to be a pharmacist ( I didn’t know I was a speed freak) hahahhaha…

              But the Main book was Dianetics.. Analytical and the reactive mind..

              Just a bunch of disjointed pseudoscience .. Physical vs Psychological illnesses..

              Psychosomatic and Psychometric crap..

              It also was a lot of new age crap combined with Bull Shit.

              Back then we had semesters.. So 2 years ( 4 courses) of this crap.. UGH, ugh.. The Prof was fairly charismatic and the young college students would be falling all over him and hanging on to his every word.

              Those courses were pure torture.. and I can NOT believe that I didn’t get caught up in it either. We had a lot of Visualization Exercises..

              Visualize a perfect world.. ” Where would you be.. What would you be doing.. Who would you be helping type exercises. ugh, ugh, ugh..

          • ThetaBara

            Right, I remember you mentioned this before! Amazing they got away with using it as a textbook! Glad you escaped the snare at least.

            • Baby

              Theta… Can you imagine that today? ( see my answer to DeElizabethan) You know it was like 40-42 years ago.. Campus unrest.. People searching for answers.

              Back then TM ( Transcendental Meditation ) popular.. and everyone was just searching.. I was just trying to feed 2 babies and get the hell out of college.

              I thank God that I didn’t fall for it.. ( cause seriously I am a seeker..) and now I just seek for the truth about Scn. ( and I certainly found it!)

          • Ardent

            (smiles, and taps cigar) Oh, well, I would’t say that…Mrs. Columbo might disagree…(looks aside) you say you were never in…In the cult? Sorry! Church. My mistake. Church (coughs). I’m so stupid sometimes, it’s embarrassing…So your friend? – in this, outfit…made a scene. At a funeral? Huh. (breaks character) Those BASTARDS! (resumes character)….Hey! Hey Dog! (sorry) hey, Dog, come here! (no manners, this dog), Yeah…Good boy…Sorry…Who do I talk to about these meters? Who is in charge? Who runs this outfit anyway?

            • Baby

              You are good.. uhm.. Yep big old scene. .. MY BFF mama died and I had known her for 40 years. Very close to her. Her daughter came from out of state. She had seen her mom like 5 times in say 15 years.

              It was sickening… She started screaming, ” YOU DON’T KNOW HER..YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT SHE HAS DONE IN THE NAME OF PSYCHIATRY.. SHE’S EVIL.. BLAH, blah..

              and then I left.. my girlfriend felt awful. But then the sister wouldn’t leave until they sold mom’s house.. and she cleaned mom out of all the valuable items. She is very heavy into the Kool aid.

              DM..Teeny tiny boots of course. He is in charge of everything. Heh detective you should know that by now… Nice doggy.. yaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn night sweetie.. ONE MORE THING..

              Nah..that’s it.. xo Baby

            • Ardent

              Morning..Sorry, you were having coffee? No, thank you, I have this egg…Sergeant?

              I am very disturbed by the story you tell. Most upsetting. God, if I’d had to deal with that madness.

              See, I think Scientology is organised madness, and truly the most evil cult yet devised. I hate it so much. My deepest sympathy for your suffering, even second-hand.

  • Great White Clam

    L. Ron Hubbard was a piece of shit.

    • Missionary Kid

      Please! Stop holding back!!!! 😉

      • Great White Clam

        Oh K

        • Great White Clam

          L. Ron Hubbard was a piece of shit.

          • Great White Clam

            Little David Miscavige SCOHB

            • Great White Clam

              Tiny David Miscavige SCOHB

            • Great White Clam

              L. Ron Hubbard was a lying bastard.

              *there*

            • Great White Clam

              Ahhhaaaahhhh…

              That feels more betta!!!

      • Great White Clam

        I can’t help it!!!!!!!

    • Great White Clam

      L. Ron Hubbard was a piece of shit.

      Little David Miscavige SCOHB

    • Missionary Kid

      You can be more creative by using LRH’s nicknames at http://tonyortega.org/2013/10/12/tomkat-project-in-los-angeles-heres-your-chance-to-help-the-show-get-to-tinseltown/#comment-1107778435 or some of the things said about him in the next list down

      • Great White Clam

        I could certrinly be more creative bout this but Tory Christman revealed that OSA must reply to specific mentions of the (fucking) dwarf or L. Ron Hubbard by name.

        Please advise

        • Missionary Kid

          I don’t know if that’s still true. Are you trying to summon the daemon? 😉

          • Great White Clam

            Yes. But no.

        • MaxSpaceman

          Actually, she said – use his precise name (and Davey Miss Cabbage’s same) connected to a specific policy quote.

          Like Dragnet, GWClam. Just the facts. They do not have to “fix” – not “reply”, but “fix” – slurs and such as you are ham-fistedly slinging across device screens all over Teegeeack.

          But they *must* “fix” what is stated above. See Clammy GW ? Now – double step, march !!!

    • Great White Clam

      L. Ron Hubbard IS a piece of shit.

    • Ray

      Sorry I didn’t see this until now. I’ve been locked in the bathroom crying. I don’t know why I still watch Project Runway when all it does is break my heart. Now what were you saying?

      • Great White Clam

        Hey. L. Ron Hubbard was homosexual when homosexual wasnt cool!!!!!!!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Turn the sound down and click around. Funny stuff.
    New promo for Grand Theft Auto video game.

    http://www.epsilonprogram.com/

  • Johan

    Hi guys, I wanted to share this very nice tribute to Madiba http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-05-madiba-a-symbol-of-the-power-of-good

    • DodoTheLaser

      Thank you, Johan!

  • Great White Clam

    L. Ron Hubbard was a fucking lunatic.

  • Great White Clam

    L. Ron Hubbard “goofed the floof” on the old OTIII materials.

    Admitted, he might have had quite a bit of ‘huffle ruffle’ too!!!!!!!!

    • MaxSpaceman

      Clammy! How I love ya’, How I love ya’
      My dear ol’ Clammy

      I’d walk a million miles
      For one of your smiles,
      Oh Clammy!

  • Great White Clam

    L. Ron Hubbard lied.

  • Great White Clam

    Well that shut the fuckers up for a while, didn;t it?

    • MaxSpaceman

      Yes, Great WC!! That did, indeed, shut the fuckahs up!!

      But, they in the tent. In Clearwater. Getting ready, Clammy.
      For the big upcoming New Year’s Eve event.

      As A.D. 69 approaches, they getting ready. (AD = After Dianetics. Year zero, 1950.)

  • Great White Clam

    Yeah, just get yer fuckin ethics imposed, clams!

    • MaxSpaceman

      ” … get yer fuckin ethics IN, clams!”

      They don’t get their ethics “imposed”, gw Clammy – they get their ethics “in”

  • Great White Clam

    Cowards…….

  • media_lush

    this just popped up on imgur….

    • MaxSpaceman

      Fucking Great !!!

    • KJP in Portland

      Aww…I feel bad for Katie in this shoop. It makes ‘Tom Thumb-up-his-ass’ look just right though!

      • ThetaBara

        She looks like this was taken before she escaped.

  • Phil de Fontenay

    Wow Jeff! Excellent dissection of the Scientology Ethics Book also known as “Thought Stopping for Dummies” ~lol

    You are really helping me blow some remnants of cult-charge with this. Thank You!

    I agree, the lecture “Can We Ever Be Friends” is a total piece of crap. Or what you said…”a corny, obnoxious, overblown piece of crap that most Scientologists were too embarrassed to play for their family members.” ~lol

    If there is anyone at all still in the church apart from David Miscavige and Tom Schmooze, GET OUT NOW!!!

    Scientology is Bad for Your Health!

    • DodoTheLaser

      When I was on staff, we had a mandatory listening party to “Can We Ever Be Friends”.
      Everyone was happy when it was over.

      • MaxSpaceman

        How many years were you a Kook-Aid drinker, DodoTL, if you wouldn’t mind revealing.

        • DodoTheLaser

          About 15 years.

          • MaxSpaceman

            Oh, man!
            Dude- it is *so* good you are ‘clear’ of all that, that monstrous ‘world’ Hubblard created for his membership.
            You’re one of the lucky ones. Some didn’t make it out alive (as you know better than I).
            Makes me think of Nancy Many, I don’t know why.
            Ciao bruthah ~

            • DodoTheLaser

              Thank you.

              One helluva journey it is.

              Nancy is helping people, but not as a scientologist.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Yes, I’m familiar with her work. I admire her.

      • Phil de Fontenay

        Ha ha! I was always having arguments with SO members when they insisted on having their stupid meetings AFTER finishing for the day. Usually about the ridiculous birthday game!

        The SO was by far the most stupid thing wRONg ever created!!! ~lol

        • DodoTheLaser

          So much fucking stat push.

          Tons of farce, zero essence.

          Truly a monkey house.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Hubbard stated that 20% of the entire population are very PTS or something and 2 and a half % are true SPs.

    Now, considering Hubbard’s projections and confessions, as well as his self-contradictions and “the legacy” – he clearly was talking about himself and and his loyal servants.

    L. Ron Hubbard – the original joker and degrader.

  • KJP in Portland

    Please ALSO do not forget this date; 72 years ago, that drew the Western Allies into the War in the Pacific. Please show courtesies to old veterans today 🙂

    • Miss Tia

      A more direct way is it’s Pearl Harbor Day.

    • Robert Eckert

      Yessir, Grand Officer KJP

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    Dear Jeff,

    Your interviews on Tony’s site are just excellent!

    Your descriptions and explanations are just excellent, and I hope these interviews get referred to, by future writers. (I kind of wish AGP could film Tony interviewing you, sort of like the Tampa Bay Times did of the interviewees for the Truth Rundown series.)

    I hope somehow you get onto some panel discussions, what would be interesting, is someday, if there is ever a TV interviewer who gets up to Tony’s speed, has you on, and has on a couple other ex Scientology execs and clear thinking ex members.

    Really really like your explanations and clear thinking of your answers, getting right to the important points and telling them simply!

    Thanks so much.

    I’m a full blown atheist today, so I don’t want to use religious concepts, but this is “perfect Karma” somehow, that you the marketing best past figure who was entrusted in speaking the movement’s main marketing thoughts, are now simply and clearly unraveling the key pernicious aspects of the Scientology movement’s membership indoctrination.

    I wish I could give you 25 more years to your life, and let you spend those 25 years as fast or slow as you choose!

    Thanks so much Jeff! Tony’s an angel in terms of media coverage of so much excellent raw important history, truly great public service Tony’s done this last several years, letting so many ex members voice their views and history, just unprecedented in media coverage of Scientology.

    Chuck in Pittsburgh

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    [Tony’s question]: “There’s a real oddity with this “handling” step. As we saw last week, Hubbard described an SP as a totally evil individual who hates and attacks any effort to help mankind, who cannot be helped or improved, and who hates the thought of anyone getting better. So how would writing pleasant letters or educating them on Scientology handle an SP?”

    The mildest handling, is the good roads and fair weather handling, and it’s the one I used exclusively when I “helped” my fellow Scientologists fend off their parents’ and friends’ negativity to that Scientologist’s life choices that pissed off those family members and friends.

    I used “good roads and fair weather” completely by the book, and what it does, by using it just like Hubbard lays out in the “Problems of Work” book by Hubbard, pages 86 onwards.

    The Scientologist’s ex husband was rabidly messing with the Sea Org member I was twinned with on the Key to Life Course. OSA even declined to help sort out this Scientologist’s mess that she’d caused herself. Her ex Scientologist husband won in the the courts in the state where the husband and child lived.

    I simply did the full good roads and fair weather handling, and it resolved the Scientologist’s total mess. The husband in the end, reconciled, and the Scientologist regained the right to see her child that she’d neglected and for which the court had ordered SHE pay child support (that is how messed up her situation had become, she so antagonized her ex husband that the court found in the husband’s favor).

    I believe, now, that when Scientologists follow their good roads and fair weather handling, the mildest handling, if they can do it with the calm reassuring attitude that they must maintain, while doing this mildest of “handling,” it translates to the “SPs” that the Scientologist is totally “gone” and hopelessly entrenched in the Scientology thinking, and that the Scientologist is happy and calm and unbudgeable from their Scientology viewpoint.

    And the “SPs” then simply give up.

    It’s mainly if the good roads and fair weather “handling” is implemented in the calmest and most compassionate and reassuring manner. Hubbard in “Problems of Work” says it has to be employed with the utmost calmness, and I found that is how it worked.

    It let’s the “SPs” know that the Scientologists are totally happy, remorseful for their mistakes that upset the family, but that the Scientologists truly wish to be on good terms with the “SPs” in their lives, and wish their “SPs” well (using the deflecting technique to shift all conversations to positive benign topics and away from the issues that the “SP” family are riveted in).

    Hubbard in another insider policy, said that Ethics Officers, and other Scientologist staff and members, have been frankly neglectful to utilize the simplest handling, good roads and fair weather, very well.

    That is why when I read that insider statement, I took the good roads and fair weather handling to be the SOLE method I utilized, and it “worked”.

    The key factors are that it let’s the “SP” outsiders think the Scientologist is calm and happy and honestly remorseful for any mistakes and harm the Scientologist has done against the “SPs”, and because the handling includes NOT taking up any of the negative criticisms but always deflecting calmly and cheerfully away from the niggly criticisms, the “SPs” get the idea that they will NEVER get through to the Scientologist’s mind! And this last might be why this good roads and fair weather “works.!” Because it effectively gets the “SPs” to conclude they are dealing with a “lost cause” cult member!

    Good roads and fair weather handling, implemented by a savvy Ethics Officer, who can keep all the conversation calm, happy, cheerfully delected off the niggly criticisms, and have the Scientologist communicate genuine remorse for the harm that the Scientologist has done, but conveying that the Scientologist is a “goner” mentally and immune to the criticisms, “works” by wearing down the outside “SPs” to conclude the cult member is not going to change out of Scientology.

    Additionally, the good roads and fair weather handling usually results in the outside “SP” making some kind of socially acceptable reconciliation statement, at which point this means the PTS Scientologist is now unlabeled as being PTS, and then allows the Scientologist to further try to establish “ARC” with the now no longer “SP” family member.

    Good roads and fair weather handling develops into further “ARC” building, and the bad family relationship to the no longer “SP” family member, can then shift to things the Scientologist has in common with their now no longer “SP” family member.

    It’s all a sort of formalized regimented continuum of smoothing out Scientologists’ lives with critical outsiders, by means of calm deflecting cheerful change of venue to something people CAN get along with.

    I concluded, that a far simpler “handling” was just refer to the society’s already more diplomatic agreed upon allowances, to “not discuss religion or politics at family reunions” type of agreement.

    But Scientologists are loaded up mentally with Hubbard’s whole lineup of PTS/SP steps, and follow that regimented lineup.

    As far as Hubbard laying down massive detailed lineups of membership behavior, that is really the whole big problem with Scientology, it supplants a person’s using outside world simpler concepts.

  • Guest

    I perceive Scientology to be a flawed immature culture that will extinguish itself within two years. And it is a long overdue collapse.

    In the end I expect millions of people to be hurt by what they were involved in. I also now perceive, that while he may have been intelligent, L Ron Hubbard was immature and acted out his most childish fears and childish prejudices on society, using people who followed him and using people in an immature way appears to continue today. What confused people was how intelligent L Ron Hubbard was, and how well he communicated, and how interested he was in everything. What people overlooked or missed was that they were dealing with a very willful immature man who was stuck in a very young age. And that begat all the results we hear about today. Shunning? That is vicious teenage behavior. That is my opinion anyway.

    But my question is this. does being a Underground Bunker critic of Scientology mean you can drop all manners and drop all decent behaviour because you are battling a terribly evil entity that needs to be fought bey any means necessary? So anything you say and do is justified? Name calling, on line bullying, swearing, victimizing others, trolling, fair gaming, treating people as lifeless objects to be mocked and cursed at and wished failure upon, it’s all good because the enemy does it so critics can to? You must fight fire with fire? Is that the thinking here? You have a hall pass from being better than the people you are criticizing because at least you are not separating families and not killing people and not kidnapping imprisoning and not stealing $ from people? Is that it? Scientology is totally baseless crap so, you you can post partially baseless crap. You just have to be a bit better then them and you are good.

    • Guest

      And there are circumstances where we laud, appreciate and follow childish behaviour, many actors act like children and we eat it up, comedians like Robin Williams, and it is great. But in those cases, we are not making life decisions based on what the man child is saying and doing. So there is nothing wrong with being immature or childlike and playful. But when exercising leadership, and leading others down a path of any kind one needs to be an adult or needs to have an adult in the lead, maturity, a person looking out for others not their own small willful ego. And that appears to be where Scientology has failed.

      • Once_Born

        Might I suggest that posting replies to yourself, instead of the people who are trying to engage with you is not the way to get the most out of a public forum.

        • Guest

          I replied to you and it would not post. It said you “cannot reply to a post that is not active.” So I replied to myself, it is not significant unless you want to label it that way.

          • Once_Born

            Ah… this is because the post was flagged for moderation – a common tactic of trolls…

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      Guest, good to see that you have an awareness that LRH and his cult have hurt millions of people, AND that there is a relative difference between the behavior of the cult and those here in the bunker. But you still seem to view the two as if they are more alike than they actually are. Do you really think that the verbal behavior here has caused (and continues to cause) as much actual physical and emotional pain as the real world behavior of the COS?

      • Ray

        Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII, my question was more specific than that. I asked if the vicious disrespectful and abusive conduct that does clearly exist in the underground bunker is justified because of how bad scientology is and do you view such roughness as necessary for some reason?

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          I’ll answer your questions if you answer mine.

      • Guest

        “Do you really think that the verbal behavior here has caused (and continues to cause) as much actual physical and emotional pain as the real world behavior of the COS?”

        Answer: Of course not. No I do not view the the verbal abuse, bullying, insulting, demeaning and trolling that can be found on any given day in the underground bunker to have caused or cause as much actual physical and emotional pain as the real world behavior of the COS. They are not comparable. One is real and one is on the internet. That still does not explain the behaviour that can be found in the underground bunker.

        Your turn Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Thanks, Ray. I will give you a thoughtful response a bit later. At the moment, there is a pressing ‘honey do’ list that I must attend to, or face a wee bit of my own domestic verbal abuse and trolling! Back at you later…

        • Once_Born

          If you really object to the atmosphere here, there are many other forums. I suggest you move on and find another that suits you better.

          However, I would advise you to read the posts and discuss relevant and substantive issues. If you go on and on about the same thing (for example the supposed abuse you have suffered on the bunker) people will assume you are troll who is trying to derail the discussion, and ignore you.

          Then we are back to square one.

          • Ray

            I was just asking why the underground bunker, that is about abuse, has itself, so some much bullying and abuse in it and why there is so little restraint at times. I am not saying it is equal to Scientology path of destruction, I am just saying that pointing to that and questioning that is not that out of line. And it does not make me a troll or a spy.

    • Ray

      “I don’t recognise any of the behaviour that you describe above”

      Once born, would you like some examples of your underground bunker family calling people “twats”, “losers”, “pieces of shit ” telling people to “fuck off” and these are some of the mild ones. There are tons of examples of this flavour of behaviour, including underground bunker family members inviting other underground bunker family members to troll posters they label spies or trolls, and all that would be from just one thread and one day in the underground bunker.

      • Once_Born

        What I meant is that none of that abuse has ever been directed at me. It is mostly directed at those argent provocateur I mentioned earlier.

        Many of those attacked as trolls really are Scientology’s ‘intelligence service’ trying to disrupt this discussion. Sometimes people get it wrong. If we have done that in your case, I apologise. This is why I suggested you back up, take a new name and start again.

        As for the rest… you have to understood that many people who post here have suffered real abuse at the hands of the CofS. They express themselves directly and most of the ‘never ins’ like me understand that they need to let off steam.

        Also, this is not a church. People often speak here in the way they do during their lives. If you are offended by taboo words, I suggest you reflect on the saying about ‘sticks and stones’. This really is the way a diverse group of people talk to each in the real world. We are here to freely discuss the subject with each other, not score PR points from an imaginary audience.

        • Guest

          Oh ok, that makes sense.

          Well the game seems to be this, that people casually label others an “argent provocateur” or a “troll” or an OSA spy or plant or worker or Scientology devotee in order to have a justification for letting their shadow run wild in order to justify their venting that part of their humanity their ugliness.

          And when there are “argent provocateurs” or a “trolls” or an “OSA spies” or “plants” or “workers” or “Scientology devotees” to use as an excuse for bad behaviour , the underground bunker family heap their stored up anger and abuse on people associated with scientology L Ron Hubbard, David Misgavige or whoever.

          To the tranquilized eye it might look like, the object of their ire is the source of the behaviour, that the object of the ire has it coming to them , but i see that people need the object to express what is already there. Respectful people do not turn to bullying and insulting behaviour no matter what others do. I am not offended by taboo words. I am just calling a spade a spade. People here are abusive. and insulting to other human beings and I just wanted to ask why that is so justified and you sort of answered me, so thank -you.

          • Once_Born

            It looks to me as if you are desperate to make a case, and I cannot dissuade you from it.

            All I can say is, if you think the Bunker hosts a ‘rough discussion’ you have led a very sheltered life, and have not noticed the supportive and compassionate posts that far outnumber the harmlessly bad-tempered ones (which is the best we can hope for in this life).

            BTW: it’s probably just as well you aren’t a troll, because commenter’s move on very quickly to follow new posts. The only people who have been aware of this discussion are you, Sir Hemet and I.

            I am going to move on too… and cordially invite you to the latest thread.

            • Guest

              Ok, thank-you for the interaction.

            • Guest

              “It looks to me as if you are desperate to make a case, and I cannot dissuade you from it.”

              And on the internet, almost everyone is “desperate to make” their “case”. Seems to be the nature of comment sections. If repetition and belabouring a single point is a sign of being desperate to make a case, then the underground bunker family is just as desperate to make a case as anyone else.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Yes and no. Can you not see that, or do you simply enjoy being provocative? If the former, and your powers of discrimination are not sufficiently sophisticated, I’ll explain later. But in the mean time, if you would like to take a shot at why the answer is yes and no, please demonstrate your chops.

            • Guest

              I am unclear what you are referring to.

            • Guest

              If memory serves, you promised to answer (or at least speak to) this below question Once I answered your question:

              “Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII, my question was more specific than that. I asked if the vicious disrespectful and abusive conduct that does clearly exist in the underground bunker is justified because of how bad scientology is and do you view such roughness as necessary for some reason?”

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Patience, my friend. You don’t even need memory to scroll up and see that I also said that I have much to do today for my partner, and our real-world family, which is quite different than what you refer to as the underground bunker family.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Ok, I’ve got a bit of time to answer. First off, like beauty, disrespectfulness, viciousness and abusiveness is, to some degree, in the eye of the beholder. But I certainly agree that there has been such verbal behavior here at the bunker, especially directed at those who do not share in the common purpose and raison d’etre of this blog. Commenters that write anything even suggesting support for LRH, the tech, or the COS are quickly jumped on and/or dismissed, especially if they do not quickly and clearly demonstrate that they fully appreciate and abhor the actual, real-world, criminal viciousness of the
              COS. If the commenter continues with contrary posts without such a demonstration, the verbal abuse begins in earnest. From what I can gather, those appear to be social rules that have developed at the bunker. You have already demonstrated that you get this in your previous posts about “the game.” But where I disagree with you is that I don’t think that people do this so casually. They do so because of the degree of real-world vicious human trauma and actual suffering that the cult has caused, and so yes, in most instances, I do think that the ugly verbally behavior, which is occasionally intentionally aimed at hurting someone’s feelings, is justified. But there are also instances when it goes overboard, and the viciousness becomes unfair, and I have certainly seen (and even participated) in a few instances of unfair troll-calling, when it turned out that the commenter was not a troll, OSA or otherwise. It also occasionally happens among underground bunker family members. Do I view such roughness as necessary? Personally, no. I also think that such roughness is disrespectful. But sometimes, the best way to make a point it to be verbally rough. And disrespectful verbal behavior is often quite enjoyable, and even hilarious. It is risky, because you might say something uncalled for that actually hurt someone’s feelings. When I do, I usually apologize for it. IF it was uncalled for. Otherwise, toughen up.

              It is my observation that the ‘underground bunker family,’ like real families, has some crazy and unpredictable people in it, who can be overly touchy, and just plain assholes at times. But there are many more here that are incredibly compassionate and understanding, and you would be surprised by how forgiving even the assholes can be. Again, the social requirement appears to be a clear demonstration of empathy and appreciation for the real-world trauma perpetrated by the COS. A sense of humor, especially if it is self-deprecating, will also go a long way. I would add that the bunker has become a popular place for exes and trolls, but apparently only those that demonstrate that they can reason appropriately, put things in proper perspective, and to a lesser degree, let go of childish defensiveness. Good luck to you, Ray Guest.

            • Guest

              I consider the generosity of this solid mature answer to restore the integrity of the exchange. Thank-you for taking time away from whatever you are doing to share your view of what I was asking about.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              You are quite welcome, Ray Guest. I look forward to any response you have the time or inclination to offer. Happy holidays!

            • Guest

              I have nothing to and to what you wrote, it was thorough and a summary I can, for the most part, buy into. I wish I could write like that. You have obviously earned those skills with years of practice in whatever you have done with your life so far.

            • Jo

              Please stop deleting your posts, if you got something to say, stand by your words and don’t be scared. Ray your like a sleeping tablet.

            • Guest

              And I will tell you up front that my powers of discrimination are not only not sufficiently sophisticated, they are non -existent and I have no chops. Only the underground bunker family has sophisticated powers of discrimination and chops. So now we have that established and out of the way and can talk about what we are talking about. Or not.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Aw shucks, RayGuest, I don’t think you give yourself enough credit. I mean, you clearly demonstrated that you do not see the “Bunker family,” as you call it, as comparable to the COS.
              And boy, are you touchy. And prudish. But the snark, now that I like.

            • Guest

              ” or do you simply enjoy being provocative?”

              And writers, thinkers, speakers, friends, anyone being provocative is an interesting part of any discussion. A person might be provocative and that does not necessarily mean that that is all they they enjoy or are being and doing. Being provocative can include having a point, being considerate, reasonable and rational and a valuable part of a discussion. It could be said that the underground bunker family is provoking Scientology and the world to look at what it views as abuse that urgently needs attending to. That does not mean the underground bunker family is “simply enjoying being provocative.”

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I knew I shouldn’t have used the “it’s just” gambit. But sometimes it feels good to oversimplify your opponents argument. Wouldn’t you agree, GuestRay?

            • Guest

              Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              You did not keep your promise, we are done..

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Have you no patience or life outside the bunker? I told you about my day and that it would be later. I have been writing for the past hour and trying to respond to many of your posts today. I’ll just post what I have. Geesh, you are annoyingly sensitive.

            • Guest

              “harmlessly bad-tempered ones”

              If you are going to frame the underground bunker family calling people “twats”, “losers”, “pieces of shit” and telling people to “fuck off”, and worse, as “harmlessly bad-tempered ones” and simply “rough discussion” then I conclude, and correct please me if I am wrong, that you are saying that all such language on the internet is “harmless” and simply ” rough discussion” no matter who is saying it and to whom..

              The hypocrisy appears to be, , that if a person said that to anyone in underground bunker family, you probably would not frame it as “harmlessly bad-tempered”, but rather would label it as a vicious organized scientology attack or an ad hominem and many other things but never as “harmless” and acceptable “rough discussion”

            • Once_Born

              Are we really talking about the same forum (and I note that you ignore the “supportive and compassionate posts that far outnumber the harmlessly bad-tempered ones” part)?

              We will have to agree to disagree, here – unless you actually have anything substantive to say about the subject of this blog – Scientology.

              BTW, the only person you are talking to now, is… me – everyone else has moved on to the new thread.

  • Qbird

    To Tony & Jefferson & all those who comment here ~
    I enjoy the discussion in the Underground Bunker ~
    It is a window to the world.

  • Sydjazz

    I don’t think scientology will ever truly go away. As P.T barnum said. “There is a sucker born every minute” it will just pop up with a new name.

  • Missionary Kid
  • Shirley Eugeste

    Hubbard: “All institutional cases are PTSes. The whole of insanity is wrapped up on this one fact…”

    I thought “the whole of insanity” was caused by psychiatry. How can Scientology deny “treatment of a mental nature” when it proclaims itself to be the alternative to mental treatment? I suspect that on “the Biggest Loser,” access to the Deep Fried Pleasure Dome and a Ben & Jerry’s Golden Spoon (free everything forever?) are never denied to the participants, regardless of their degree of success any particular week. I suspect, rather, that there is no Deep Fried Pleasure Dome. Can you imagine: “No bucket of KFC for you, and no Chocolate Therapy, till you lose 5 pounds”???

    How does Scientology account for PTS behavior in people who are not now and who have never been “suppressed? If neither they nor anyone around them has ever heard of Scientology and therefore neither approves, disapproves nor really even cares?

    I think CoS could at least expand their definition of PTS a smidge to include non-Scientology-related “types.” Or is the idea that if a person is exhibiting behavior commonly considered to be potentially indicative of one form or another of “mental illness,” then he (… or she) is simply unaware of having been a Scientologist way back on the track, at which time they were suppressed like crazy?

    • Anonymous

      Yes…it is more than ironic that Scientology vilifies psychiatry for poor handling of truly desperate mentally ill people, but will not handle them itself as an organizational policy.

      That would be like the local fire department refusing to put out a fire while at the same time blaming the victims of house fires for poor safety practices.

      The fact is Scientology cannot handle mental illness. If it could it would. After all, Scientology is one of the most money motivated organizations in the world,yet they vilify psychiatry for being money motivated.

  • KJP in Portland

    Wow…I was reading and ‘downvoting’ all of that ‘Guest’ guy’s posts. Is he on a severe ‘bender’ or what? Did he miss his stats big-time last week? Did they put him on bread and water or something?