SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

Jon Atack on Why It’s So Hard To Recover From Scientology

Jon_Atack_Blue_Sky2Jon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He now has a new edition of the book out, and on Saturdays he’s helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

This week, Jon sent us something special. We had been discussing the way former Scientologists seem to need years away from the church before they can shake off their conditioning. That prompted Jon to write for us this remarkable essay about what motivated him to come back into the public eye after many years under the radar.

JON: My concern has always been for those who have been involved in Scientology. My opposition is to Scientology, not to those who have been infected with it. After many years away, licking my wounds, recovering my health and making a deep study of fanaticism in its many forms, I have come back because I am concerned that Scientologists do not recover quickly enough. Indeed, they often don’t recover at all, and continue to live in a dream world.

In Snapping, Conway and Siegelman talked about ‘information disease’ and say that Scientologists take far longer to recover than other cult members. They reckoned twelve and a half years. While their investigation was far too small to confirm this, I can say, after talking to more than 500 former Scientologists, that it often takes much longer.

Back in the nineties, I was approached by a man who had been housebound for twenty years. His wife had persuaded him that they must return to Saint Hill, in England, to see if that would help. They stayed with a friend of mine, who gave the chap a copy of A Piece of Blue Sky. He read the book, came to see me for an afternoon and went home. A few weeks later, I received a post card, saying that he had found a job. If I’d seen him twenty years before, he would have returned to the world then. The thought scared me.

More recently, a second generation member, who left over a decade ago, told me, after one of our conversations, that she’d used scented fabric conditioner in her laundry for the first time. She had realized that scent may not be a psychiatric plot for world domination after all.

These ideas stick around, if uninspected. And some of the ideas are far more devastating than Hubbard’s infantile fear of perfume. Many former members spend the rest of their lives believing that people ‘pull it in’ and that we are surrounded by psychopaths. They think that illness is caused by connection to such psychopaths, though some strange psychic effect on the immune system. One former member even told me that I shouldn’t waste time helping Scientologists, because they have ‘pulled it in.’ I asked her if I should allow a child to go under a bus, based on the same reasoning, and suggested that it is only our compassion for others that makes us human. But compassion is not a major element of Scientology.

We all suffer from confirmation bias — pushing aside evidence which falsifies our beliefs, and grabbing at whatever seems to confirm it — and this can be deadly in former members. There are so many taboos to overcome. For instance, I felt quite guilty when I first read about the brain, but it reminded me of a Christadelphian meeting I went to as a teenager, where the congregation laughed uproariously whenever Darwin was mentioned. I realized that I’d been conditioned to feel disgust, which is a standard manipulation, used by all demagogues.

Scientologists steer clear of many taboo words. Very few will say ‘victim’ or talk about ‘sympathy,’ for instance, and there is often confusion about the real meaning of words such as ‘reasonable’ and ‘affinity.’ Hubbard alerted followers to ‘propaganda by redefinition of words,’ and then filled two 500-page dictionaries with his own complex and often contradictory examples (e.g., ‘it’s a tough universe, and only the tigers survive’, but a ‘tiger’ is a bad staff member. Maybe he had a point).

I encourage discussion of the principles of Scientology. It claims to be a science, so it should be susceptible to analysis and evidence-based investigation. Of course, Scientologists are discouraged from talking about the techniques (‘verbal tech’ is a ‘high crime’) or their ‘cases.’ They are also forbidden any complaint about fellow believers, unless it is in the form of a ‘knowledge report.’ So, talking about the principles can be difficult, but I believe that it is the only way to escape Hubbard’s implanting,

For instance, Hubbard said that affinity always rises alongside communication. The more you communicate with someone, the more they’ll like you. This sounds lovely, but it isn’t true, because, as he also pointed out, bullets are a form of communication. I won’t like you more for shooting me, or for shouting at me. Then take a long hard look at the notion that reality is an agreement (an ‘agreed upon apparency’). The only place where this really applies is in hypnotic trance, where the world is distorted according to the hypnotist’s command. And that sums up Scientology: once you agree with Hubbard, you will see the world through his ideas, and conform your behavior to those ideas.

A friend of mine once challenged an OT, who had told him that she wasn’t worried if WWIII broke out, because she would just ‘audit off the incident.’ She said that she would ‘mock up’ an e-meter to do this. My friend suggested that she mock it up then and there, but she said that her ‘necessity level’ wasn’t high enough. Such are the fantasies of long term believers. It’s time to audit off Scientology and to break the agreement. Let’s face it, there are tens of thousands of former members out there, but, even with the Internet and anonymity, most are staying quiet. There is a reason for that. And, if we are to cure Scientologists, then it will only happen after we start talking.

THE BUNKER: Thank you, Jon.

 
——————–

Saucers Over Saint Hill?

There are more holes in this story than we can count, but we figured you still might get a kick out of it. The Sun is reporting that some airline pilots last December 30 spotted several saucer-like objects over Sussex, but we’re not sure how they were pinpointed exactly over Scientology’s headquarters at Saint Hill Manor in East Grinstead. The silliness gets even thicker when the writer suggests that “oddly,” it “emerged” only a day later that Scientologists had “carved a message to aliens” in New Mexico.

FLUNK! The symbol in the New Mexico desert has been known about for many years. In 2012 we published a rare interview with a former worker at the secretive compound, Dylan Gill, who told us that the symbol was meant to guide L. Ron Hubbard, not “aliens,” to the location.

Well, whatever. This is The Sun, after all.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on June 8, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

Share Button
  • Britpoptarts

    Very pleased to see “Snapping” mentioned. It’s an excellent book.

  • Exterrier

    It is indeed a sad commentary on what a psychopath conditioning system Scientology is, that it does seem to take twelve and a half years or more to get the dogmas and assumptions and lingo cleared completely out of your system, no matter how disenchanted and disgusted you may be, but it only seems to take some sort of toggle switch, or maybe twelve and a half minutes, for “friends” and even family members to abandon each other for “eternity”, due to the ingrained PTS/SP conditioning.

    • Gerard Plourde

      “it only seems to take some sort of toggle switch, or maybe twelve and a half minutes, for “friends” and even family members to abandon each other for “eternity”, due to the ingrained PTS/SP conditioning”

      I think you’ve hit on the key – conditioning. The entire Scientology enterprise is designed to turn the practitioner inward, cut him/her off from others and instill a form of mistrust and paranoia. It’s no wonder that recovery is such a long and arduous process.

    • John P.

      There is a lot of conditioning and brainwashing in Scientology to be sure. And you are exactly right that the conditioning makes it easy to flip a switch and decide to break off relationships with family members.

      In addition to conditioning and brainwashing to bend a member’s reality to the cult’s beliefs, there is a lot of brutal economic pressure brought to bear. This pressure may not appear to be overtly economic, though it is when you pierce through the surface cult jargon. The field of “behavioral economics” has shown repeatedly that people tend to make rational economic decisions most of the time, even if they have absolutely no education in economic theory whatsoever. I suggest that in addition to the craziness that all the brainwashing does, there’s a rational economic basis for people staying in the cult, and perhaps even for getting them to continue to think like Scientologists long after they’ve left.

      If you leave the cult, you can lose your family (along with all the assets you might lose in a divorce, presuming the cult hasn’t got them all already), but if you have a business that caters mostly to Scientologists such as a dental practice or chiropractic, you’ll lose a significant portion of your customer base overnight, and maybe employees as well. And they can always picket your place of work to try to get you fired if you aren’t a business owner.

      The cult essentially becomes a monopoly supplier, not just of your “eternity” but of your livelihood as well. And when there is a high cost of changing from one supplier to another, people usually (correctly) figure they have to to stick with the monopoly supplier they have, which enables that supplier to charge exorbitant prices and deliver inferior customer service. It’s called a “high switching cost.” This is why Microsoft is one of the most profitable companies in the world — even if you think Windows 8 is an overpriced turd, you’d have to rewrite all your application software (if you’re a company) and risk being unable to open your documents and spreadsheets on a competing system, so people stick with Microsoft year after year even though they hate doing business with them. People tend to overestimate the risk of making a switch to Linux and OpenOffice, by the way, so they keep paying the Microsoft tax year after year.

      The other type of organization remarkably like the cult in its ability to discourage members from leaving is a terrorist organization. The parallels between Scientology and Al Qaeda are striking: both appeal to reasonably educated but disaffected kids (most of the 9/11 hijackers had college degrees), they get love-bombed and are promised a sense of higher purpose (in both cases, the organizations claim to be the only ones who can save the world), and offer brotherhood. And in both cases the switching costs are astronomical — you give up your “eternity” (72 virgins in heaven in the case of Al Qaeda), and most terrorist groups will kill defectors as well as any relatives they can find. Check out “Radical, Religious, and Violent: The New Economics of Terrorism” by Eli Berman for a detailed treatment of the economics of terrorist organizations.

      • Exterrier

        Yes, excellent points, and essential. It is actually fear based coercion more that actual brainwashing in most cases, that causes the rapid decision to disconnect. The fear was so thick ten or more years ago when I noticed I had quit going, you could slice it. And nobody I knew answered their phones due to the fear of Reg’s. it was simply pathetic. Your analysis of the economic nature of that fear is so to the point.

  • FistOfXenu

    Aaaaah! My weekly dose of Atack is restored. Welcome back to you.

    This is important. I have exes in my family and friends (I had to be here for some reason didn’t I?) that took a long time to get squared away again after they were screwed up by the cult. They’re finally okay but it was ugly and took a long time. I’d love to see somebody make it easier for people to leave and get rid of all the LRH noises in their heads quicker.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Thank XENU!!!

      • FistOfXenu

        You’re welcome. 😛 But even I don’t know a way to clean up Hubbard’s mess. Sounds Like Atack’s got some ideas though, and the exes I know all used his book a lot to finally get themselves turned around. That’s why I was so glad Tony asked him here. His book came through for my people when they couldn’t get their minds right back in the 90s. They trickled out in the 70s and 80s and then just got stuck before that.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Glad they got out. I really feel for the die hardsthat are left

    • A few years back a friend was involved in a Xtian cult; the thing he said I did that most helped him get over it was that I never bullshitted him, or belittled him, or berated him. At the time I didn’t try to figure it out, I just thought I was doing what friends do. But since then I have heard and read from so many scieno exes that the ones who got over it the soonest had somebody outside the cult who treated them with respect and friendship. One thing for sure about Scientology – it does not teach people how to be nice to each other! How did Elwood Dowd put it in Harvey? “You can be oh so clever, or you can be oh so nice; I tried clever, and I like nice better.”

      ’til next time;

    • Truthiwant

      Good one, Fist.

  • BuryTheNuts2

    It is the little things that never cease to floor me!
    Like the inherent danger of scented dryer sheets.
    Sad, and mind boggling.

    • Bella Legosi

      Yeah, when I read that I got a bit sad for the poor girl. I used to double fist the conspiracy kool aid, but goddamn I never thought scent was some sort of psych implant or sinister controlling mechanism!

      So, is the Snuggle bear officially from some sort of Invasion Fleet or is that the psych industry’s clever way of hooking children on Adderall and Ritlin?

      • Bella Legosi

        holy shit I may have answered my own question

      • Missionary Kid

        I don’t use Downey because I get that fresh scent from my solar clothes drier. 😉

        • mirele

          I don’t use Downey because it and its siblings make me sneeze.

      • Captain Howdy

        Don’t know about snuggie bear, but proctor & gamble did use satanic symbols and succubus Marilyn Chambers to recruit unsuspecting consumers into the army of darkness!

        • Missionary Kid

          Oh, geez. Thanks for bringing up all the urban legends and leaps of logic that approach LRH’s word droppings in validity, IMO. 😉

        • richelieu jr
        • Bella Legosi

          I did not know that!

          Thank you! I am going to have to look that up now. I figured after all the conspiracy theory shit I have read over the years, something like that would have come up, but I can’t say that I have seen it that way. Next to $cienologists, fundamentalist Christians do conspiracy theory very well, hell some of the core beliefs of conspiracy theorist is found in Revelation! I think that is why I love watching Jack Van Impe. When he deduced that COMPUTER numerically equaled 666, I have to say I have never been more satisfied, entertained, and fully stoned as I was then! My mom and I made it almost a ritual to get stoned at 2am just to watch his brilliant insanity! Talk about 14,000 repetitions making a truth, that man is known as “The Walking Bible”, never have I seen someone more knowledgeable about scripture, yet totally ignorant at the same time. It really does fascinate me. Prolly why I am so interested in $cientology!

          • Missionary Kid

            See richelieu jr’s comment below. The whole satanist origin of the Proctor and Gamble logo is brought to you by the same type of people who believe cats are possessed by demons and that something must be true because a friend forwarded it to them.

            Snopes.com is your friend. They cite sources, which the chain letters that are passed around either do not, or they cite bogus ones. I even go back to sources cited in chain letters, and they say exactly the opposite of what the person who cited it thought it did.

            As for 666, an older version of scripture was recently found in which the number of the beast was given as 626. Kinda takes the power out of the number, doesn’t it?

            I told my uberfundamentalist Christian sister that whoever wrote Revelations was on acid. That’s about right, with all the vague symbolism. Groovy, man!

            I don’t know what happened to it, but I have a book around somewhere that proves that the end is near, citing all sorts of stuff in Revelations and other places in the bible. Wars, famines, outbreaks of diseases, all that bad stuff was cited, along with problems in the Middle East. What’s wrong with the book? It was from my dad’s seminary studies in the 1920s. Oops.

            The bible is a wonderful book, but just because someone knows what’s in it, doesn’t mean they understand it. When I was a little kid, I had memorized a bunch of chapters of the bible, and I could rattle them off easily. Maybe that’s why I’m so dingy?

            • Bella Legosi

              Revelations was actually the very first part of the Bible I read when I was a kid. It was around the time of Waco, so I was 9. I caught on that “the end is nigh” has been said and said throughout history and it really has never come, but it gave me some great writing fuel even at that tender age.

              What fascinates me about Jack is that not only does he know the Bible inside and out; but he is genuinely happy about the End Times! He is one of those really rare true believers with that twinkle in his eye that tells you he is completely content only having one unalterable perspective on the world. I always wondered if he applied that thinking and ambition to curing cancer or HIV/AIDS the world would be a much better place. But you are right, just because someone is literate does not make them intelligent. To have intelligence means you have the ability and capacity to think critically, accept you may be wrong, and accept the possibility that one day what you believe to be true really is flawed information.

              Lenny Bruce (MY HERO) said;

              “You want the truth? Let me tell you the truth; what is and what should be is a fantasy. A terrible terrible lie someone gave to the people long ago.”

              Being able to see and accept the truth is much harder and difficult then just accepting the fantasy. I believe many people indulge their fantasy out of fear of having to come to terms with a fundamental truth. Truth may set you free, but what good is freedom when you can’t even conceive the notion of it? It is much easier to accept the fantasy. For it allows people to go on with their lives. I don’t agree with this thinking but that is what I have observed and even I try my damnedest to see and accept truth rather then use the crutch that is the fantasy!

              lol See I am dingy too and it wasn’t caused by fundamentalist Christians! Ding bat and proud! Better then a fool living in a fantasy!

            • Missionary Kid

              As far as I’m concerned, everything written about Jesus after the gospels just screwed up a pretty good message. Paul, especially, really shaped Christianity more than anyone else in it’s early times. All the epistles were really just to get everyone into line.

              As far as my parents were concerned, they were happy to die because they expected heaven to be on the other side, where they’d meet Jesus as well as all of their dead loved ones.

              The end times are looked forward to because it means that all the righteous will be brought to heaven and the rest will be Left Behind. Since they consider themselves as the righteous, they will be spared the tribulations of those left behind.

            • Bella Legosi

              I was reading that Bible that was given to me last night and it had an interesting take on “righteousness”. It interested me, but since I can not bring myself to believe in the lie of Original Sin took it with a grain of salt, but what it said was this; (I am sure you have come across it Kid, but until last night I had not, nor had I even thought about righteousness in the definition it purports)

              “Romans 3:23 says, we have all sinned. For those who would claim to be the sole exception to this eternal truth, verse ten of this chapter plainly says, ‘No one is righteous-not even one,’ (Romans 3:10) Another word for righteous means, ‘One who is as he or she ought to be,’ When the Bible says that no is is righteous, or good, it is not so much referring to behavior but to the inner character.
              “What exactly is ‘God’s glorious standard’ that Romans 3:23 says we have failed to meet? ‘God’s glorious standard is absolute perfection’, Jesus said. ‘But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect’ (Matthew 5:48) In other words, anyone who is not as good as God is not acceptable to him.
              One definition of sin, derived from the Greek word hamartia, is to ‘miss the mark’. As far as the mark goes, we miss it by a mile. Although our sinful nature makes it impossible for us to live up to God’s standard, we cannot blame sin on our nature alone. Sin is also a deliberate act.”

              This passage I found interesting and insightful (not condoning it, but gave me a bit more understanding on the thinking process of fundamentalism. It also came right before the above passage);
              “The truth of the matter is that the Ten Commandments, or the Law, as they are called in the Bible, were not given to make us good, but to show us how bad we are. The Bible tells us, ‘No one can ever be made right with God by doing what the Law commands. The Law simply shows us how sinful we are.’ (Romans 3:20) The purpose of the law is to make us realize how sinful we are. You might say that God’s law was given to us to ‘shut our mouths’ and show us that we desperately need his help and forgiveness for our terminal condition as sinners.”

              It goes on to say that the reason why man experiences death is due to Adam unleashing sin upon the world by the temptation of Eve and the apple! I found this interesting because it reinforced my beliefs that “original sin” is one of the oldest controlling mechanisms there is for controlling a population. I find it truly sad that “true believers” and fundamentalists view man with such misery and futility. I believe it is that “fantasy” that keeps man from really achieving true happiness and potential…….jesus I sounded like a scientologist just then didn’t I????? lol Damn it, I hope you get the point I am trying hard to make!

            • Missionary Kid

              Holy shit! I haven’t had so much scripture quoted at me for 40 years. 😀

              Caveat: I haven’t consulted with anything to write this. Others will be better able to
              explain this. This is from the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint.

              Basically, it all comes down to this: man is inherently sinful, and, because he is not perfect, as god is. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of god.” is a
              favorite verse they like to quote.

              The original sin was just the first in man’s existence, and the sin was in disobeying god’s command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By tasting
              the fruit, he acquired the knowledge of his evil and was cast out of the Garden of Eden, to suffer as a mortal. [This is, to me, the Christian version of opening Pandora’s Box]

              The worst thing that can happen to man according to the theology is that his soul is cast out of god’s wonderful presence. “Cast me not from thy presence O Lord, and
              renew a right spirit within me” is a pleading that’s a part of the Lutheran liturgy, and, I believe it is also a part of the Catholic service as well, in slightly different language.

              God, in his mercy, provided a way for man to return to god’s grace and presence. For Christians, it’s by believing in Jesus, that he was the son of god, and that he suffered and died for man on the cross to pay for man’s sins and that god then resurrected him so that he could rejoin him in heaven. In addition to believing, one must ask Jesus for forgiveness, which he, by suffering on the Cross and giving his blood, has already paid for.

              Righteous, in the way the term was used in what you were reading, means absolute righteousness, which is attained by asking for forgiveness from Jesus, who then redeems his brownie points and pays for man’s sins – but only if sincerely asked.

              The forgiveness doesn’t come from just lip service or the prayer request, but also acts that show we truly are repentant. That’s why both Catholics and Protestants object to the image of their followers sinning all week, then, after going to mass or church service, being forgiven. (Although they each accuse the other of doing it).

              God, in the form of Jesus or the Holy Spirit, is there to provide a way to salvation and righteousness. If man follows god’s law, which is not just the 10 Commandments, but all that flows from it, which was given to man in the form of the bible, and asks for forgiveness from Jesus, they can enter the kingdom of god or heaven, when they die. Usually, the Law doesn’t mean just the 10 commandments, but everything that the bible tells us. (Interpreted by whichever denomination we belong to).

              The original sin was only the first one, but is representative of man’s sinful nature. The whole bible and religion, IMO, is a control mechanism, but certainly not the only one that is exercised by fundamentalist churches.

              The things written after Jesus’ time were written by Paul to control the direction of the new religion, as well as the actions of adherents to the Christian faith. They bear the stamp of his culture.

              Even then, with the Council of Nicaea, in the third century, the Roman church decreed
              what was to go into the canon of the bible. They also decreed that other gospels be destroyed or declared as apocrypha. Other gospels have cropped up, among them, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Gospel according to Judas, among others that some poor monks, who had spent years transcribing, couldn’t bear to destroy. Anything that
              smacked of mysticism was removed. The Rastafarians are descendents of the mystic tradition that survived in Africa.

              IMO, the Council of Nicaea was a power grab by the Roman Church, backed up by Constantine, who supported it for his own political ends. Otherwise, it was simply an
              obscure religion. BTW, there is questioning of the whole persecution of Christians story. Throwing Christians to the lions wasn’t for being Christians, but for offenses like not paying taxes, which some felt they should not do, because it would be honoring an earthly kingdom over god’s.

              One problem that fundamentalists have is that they pick and choose what they honor out of the Old Testament. They always claim that he Holy Spirit has guided them or
              their predecessors as to which they honor.

              Another problem is that there is strong evidence that translations of the bible have been subjected to the prejudices or the interpreters who did the work.

              The disciples who supposedly wrote the gospels were not literate, and they were passed down by oral tradition long after Jesus’ departure.

              Read Misquoting Jesus. It’ll open your eyes.

              If you don’t believe in all of the dogma, you’re goin’ to hell. I warn ya!

              An aside: nowhere in the bible does it define marriage as only between a man and a woman.

            • Bella Legosi

              HA get your Jesus on Kid! hehe
              “The worst thing that can happen to man according to the theology is that his soul is cast out of god’s wonderful presence. “Cast me not from thy presence O Lord, and
              renew a right spirit within me”” Was something they were definitely trying to impress upon me. They were very happy to hear that I was baptized Catholic, but really leaned toward the Lutheran side of things. I noticed right off that the Bible they gave to me only contained only the New Testament (with about 60 pages of introductory stuff) They mentioned the King James and I really had to stifle my disgust. The very name is really offensive IMO. I do like copies of Old and New Testament, but the one my mother has with the Apocrypha is really neat.

              I have heard a lot of good things about Misquoteing Jesus. When I get paid I intend on paying off my bill to the library so I can get books again. That book really seems right up my alley. I am aware that many of the writers of the actual books contained in the bibles out there were never really written by those people themselves and that many of the books are 100 to 400 years after the Crucifixion. That is a lot of time to “misquote” the “Son of God”.

              No. You are very correct. It says NOTHING on the subject of gay marriage and what it does say about homosexuality is very ugly and the very definition of bigoted!

              Don’t worry Kid! I won’t go off and join the Born Agains! Just because I give them my attention does not mean I believe everything I am exposed to! Jesus Kool Aid really doesn’t suit me and never has, but I love discussions with them…….shit even exs like ya self!

            • Missionary Kid

              That King James was as gay as a Tinkerbell, Why do you dislike him? I love the KJV for the language. It gave me a head start for reading English literature, although it didn’t help me for Beowulf, which is much older.

              The KJV also caused all sorts of problems for the Catholic church because they didn’t provide bibles for non-clergy. The attitude was, “We’ll tell you what the bible says.”

              Ultimately, the KJV caused problems for the Church of England because when people started to read the bible, they started to interpret it for themselves. That brought about a lot of schisms that led to the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.

            • Bella Legosi

              The very title, King James Version, to me is so self rightous it isn’t even funny. I know the Church of England had to make up their own Bible and this is it, but there is something just plain wrong about someone who believes they were picked by God to rule over people and savages alike, to make his own interpretation of a then 1600 year old book. Like I said I am really a purist when it comes to spiritual texts. I don’t like reinterpretation. A spiritual or scriptural writings needs to just be left the way it was intended to be, NOT revised to meet modern day thinking. If then those scriptures are sooooo out of date and obsolete with out a revision, then maybe they are not worthy to be read or understood, much less taken as the direct word of God. Take for example the “banned books” of the Bible, some of them were actually written in the time of Christ, IMO they should have been included, but Nicaea censored a lot of them (some because they didn’t reflect what the RCC had become at this point)

            • Missionary Kid

              It’s called the King James Version because he put the money up for the bible to be translated into English.

            • Bella Legosi

              With a protestant interepretation Kid!

              😀

              Not bashing them at all just saying Church of England needed their own Bible seeing as how Henry VIII and Elizabeth were scourges of Catholicism at that time

            • Missionary Kid

              It only took 150 years for the Catholics to finally produce one for their flock. They didn’t want their parishoners to have the bible. That was for the priests to read & interpret, and they didn’t want the common folk to have it.

            • Bella Legosi

              Also, I really regret not learning Latin, Greek, and German. If I known these languages I would have found books written in them, so that I can read exactly what was written and the intended language. Once something gets revised or reinterpreted, there is too much a chance for the interpreter to add or remove certain phrases or words, leading eventually to schisms that are essentially man made.

            • Missionary Kid

              As far as the bible goes, knowing those languages won’t necessarily help you out, because of the way they were copied.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misquoting_Jesus

              Google Bart D. Ehrman, and you’ll get a whole bunch of his writing. There are a lot of people, especially the ones who want to protect the dogma, who don’t like him.

            • Bella Legosi

              Thanks for the link I will def check out!

            • Missionary Kid

              Check your email. I sent you something.

            • Zana

              The Christianity that came after Jesus all seems to be about politics and control of the populace. When Jesus died there were lots of women giving meetings. Check the Gnostic Gospels as well as a book entitled “When God Was A Women.” That started to make sense of it all for me. Paul just wanted to get everyone in line and get rid of Mary Magdelene. The politics of the time were pretty scary and he tried to consolidate the Christian movement so that the Romans wouldn’t destroy it. If Mary and Jesus were lovers, then I would think that Paul must have been pretty pissed. Kinda jealous. That makes more living sense to me than all this crap about “you’re all sinners.”

              Sex is to be celebrated. It is fundamental to this plane of existence. Everything in this material plane is polarities… yes-no, black-wite, male-female. And variations of it all. If your “superior” who “knows more that you do and is the intermediary with God” tells you that sexuality is sinning…then you’re f—-ed. Your sexual energy is just energy—it’s not going to go away. And the more you push it down, the more it’s going to push back. You make ’em guilty for what they intrinsically are…then you have ’em for life.

              BTW – Sin is a term in archery which means you’ve missed the point.

            • Bella Legosi

              Oh I love reading about the Gnostics! What the Roman Catholic Church and Dominican’s did to those people was pure evil! I found a book called, “The Forbidden Religion” or something like that, but it was all about early Christianity and the development of the Gnostic beliefe system vs. what the ‘Universal’Church behaved and believed. They also had women ‘preists’, practiced forms of birth control, and were literate. The saying, “Kill them all and God will know his own.” Came out of the Albigensian Crusade and that Crusade is what directly lead to the Dominican class priests.

              The more I read about them and their view of God, the more I was intrigued. Rex Mundi is quite the odd notion, but interesting none the less! 🙂 I enjoy Gnostism

              I did not know that sin, was used in archery! I have been picking that ancient art form up recently. My youngest brother has a moderate bow and arrow set. We have been practicing in the back yard with some styrofoam. I have to say, the advise given on Game of Throans to Aya Stark is very true! Don’t hesitate! I tried it and it worked for me. Got excellent groupings that were deep! Its fun!

            • Kim O’Brien

              i am a non believer but i like the gnostics too .

            • Bella Legosi

              They are very likable. They have their nutty stuff too. I find that most religions have their ‘silly’ stories. Gnostic’s are no exception. But, they were very progressive, learned, and tolerant. Thankfully, in the long run the Crusade upon them and the belief system didn’t die. They are one pseudo religion that I give a free pass.

            • Zana

              I knew a fellow actor in the 70s who was so sure that the world was going to end momentarily that he gave up his career and moved to Walla Walla, Washington. He must be really pissed that he missed his life.

              Another person I knew was so sure that the Mayan calendar and all the UFO crap surrounding it was going to end the world by the end of December 2012 that she literally told me in early December that if the world didn’t end by the end of the year, that she would really be depressed. LOL. I can’t stop laughing.

            • Missionary Kid

              For people like that, I’d offer to buy their car for a real cheap price, since theoretically, they wouldn’t need it.

      • Observer

        I think Snuggle bear there to restimulate our violent engrams. It makes me want to tear it limb from cloying, annoying limb.

        • Bella Legosi

          omg……I fell asleep watching TV a few hours ago and had this horrible dream where I was shot in the chest (accidentally) with an M16 auto burst. I didn’t feel any pain and when I checked my chest there was no blood or wounds. The people in the dream were scared cuz they SAW me take that burst, yet there was nothing. I start to feel around my chest and felt 3 full metal jacket bullets under my skin. I began to push them up toward my throat and ended up puking them out, along with 10 dimes! For serious, not shitting you guys! That goes down as one of the weirdest nightmares I have ever ever had, trumps a pissed off Mel Gibson chasing me, as well as North Koreans and witnessing F16 dogfights in the night sky (in that dream there were at least 50 planes, it was awesome to witness but scary at the same time)

          Talk about Snuggle being an evil psych plant huh? lol

          • Missionary Kid

            Did the news come on about the shooting in Santa Monica while you were asleep?

            • Bella Legosi

              No, I read about that at like 3am. I fell asleep to the movie, “A Beautiful Mind”

            • Missionary Kid

              I’ve fallen asleep with the TV on and had weird dreams about working out or cleaning carpets. or a blender or some other crap being sold on late night TV.

            • Bella Legosi

              I have those sometimes, but not recently! I usually sleep with either a TV on or a radio, and have for years. So either my brain is so used to it it doesn’t bother remembering or cancels out what is being said. I would turn the TV on BBC world news or PBS so I wasn’t getting suggestive infomercials in my sleep. lol I don’t want Bullet implants, or Wen Hair implants damn it!

      • richelieu jr

        Distrust of the Snuggle Bear just seems like plain common sense to me…

      • sister wendy

        deos and antiperspirants too. Have you ever been in a car with a bunch of SOs? They usually have horrid BO and will do nothing about it because of the “hidden evil scent implants”

        • Bella Legosi

          I am sorry you had to experience that awful stench!

          No I have not known anyone personally that was in SO. I did know a tweeker that never used deoderant and got stuck in a car with him *gag* and my uncle loved to eat brats and drink beer, then lay on a fart and lock the windows, that was horrible!

          Hearing about this paranoia of scents today is the first time I have come across it! Part of me want to belive that it isn’t really true, but then again $cientology is always worse then you think. Leave it to Hub and his writings to get people to even distrust their own senses! And $cilons wonder why people like me think they are nothing but a C U L T.

          • sister wendy

            yeah- I wanted to think maybe it was just their way of keeping on “healthy” living- like only using natural oil fragrances or something. You know, non-chemical stuff. But that was just a bunch of rationalization. Haha! I’m glad the fart and beer part of your life with closed windows is over for you.

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes thankfully he does not pull that crap anymore, but he is an eternal farty Italian man! He can clear a room and wake himself up with his colon trumpet and stink! I still live with him lol

            • sister wendy

              Haha! I’m sure this song was written in honor of him- you know The Bobs? Vapor Carioka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZodgYWFIQ

    • Miss Davidoff

      The fear of scents started to appear in my corner of the $cieno universe (outside of the US) near the end of my gig as a scilon. A friend of mine (bzw. a really nice person) whom I regarded as super upstat as she had completed OTV came back from the failboat and had stopped wearing perfume. In addition she told me with a sense of awe, that no scented cosmetics at all were allowed on the ship. This seemed whacky to me and I remember well the constrictive, cringey feeling in my tummy when I suppressed the urge to tell her so. Instead I assumed the role of an inferior unknowing non OT and asked her deferently why scents were forbidden. She answered that she hadn´t understood it before her ship experience either but now she did.

      This non-answer came across as “this is higher level OT stuff and you don´t get that yet”. At the time I really did accept that (cringe) but nevertheless the cognitive dissonance was simmering inside.

      • Phil McKraken

        Great story about the OTV and the can’t-explain-it-to-you reasons for new behaviors.

        Rule of thumb: Secret knowledge or revealed wisdom –> Get the hell out of there.

      • Phil McKraken

        Great story about the OTV and the can’t-explain-it-to-you reasons for new behaviors.

        Rule of thumb: Secret knowledge or revealed wisdom –> Get the hell out of there.

        • Observer

          Nicely put.

        • richelieu jr

          Other rule: Any religion or philosophy that tells you there’s a ‘right’ way to smell, Stinks.

          • Missionary Kid

            Amen.

        • Zana

          Could she demonstrate any of the so-called OT powers? Not. Can anybody demonstrate those powers?

      • sister wendy

        I was told that if I wore perfume at the org, not only was I showing I was subject to some alien-psy ops brand of control, but now by knowing this information, I was most likely trying to entrap others by wearing it. “So is that the kind of person you are, huh? One that wants to entrap and control others?” So I didn’t wear it again….sigh…

        • Missionary Kid

          Yeah, the cult didn’t want competition.

        • ParticleMom

          I’m trying to imagine a situation where that could be said with a straight face…only in Co$

          • sister wendy

            Really unbelievable, isn’t it? And in light of what Jon spoke about I STILL think about that when I put some scent on. It never leaves- like fungus- just keeps hanging around

    • Kim O’Brien

      me too . who would have thought that the fear of the power of scented dryer sheets would be something that a person would have to overcome ….not because it is a real phobia …but because it was a part of your “religion ” ?. I keep saying to myself ..”don’t shake the baby ..don’t shake the baby “

  • jensting

    “And that sums up Scientology: once you agree with Hubbard, you will see
    the world through his ideas, and conform your behavior to those ideas.”

    Makes a lot of sense to me. Hugh Urban ended his very scholarly book on the “religiousity” of scientology by wondering if Hubbard had not, in the end, achieved one God-like quality: to change the reality of his followers.

    • Miss Davidoff

      Changing someones reality in the direction of more dependency, less freedom, more enslavement is not a god like quality, it is evil. But I agree that Hubbard really stood out for the sheer quantity of reality change he could induce in his victims.

  • 1subgenius

    Nice to see the seminal work “Snapping” mentioned by Jon.
    That’s what got me started. Goes back a long way…..80’s?

  • 0tessa

    Thank you Jon Atack. Your contribution is very important!
    That recovering from ‘the tech’ is difficult and is taking a long time, was known to me. But I still don’t see the reason for that. It can’t be just information bias or the redefinition of words. Former members of Catholicism or Protestantism also have difficulty in getting rid of ‘old ways of thinking’. But the one of Scientology is particulary sticking. I wonder if this has to do with the e-meter, which is afterall a form of bio-feedback system. The programming is probably more in-depth with this device. Maybe Scientology is also a form of neurolinguistic programming?

    • Bella Legosi

      I remember reading in Brave New World that 14,000 repetitions make a truth. Makes you wonder if all the word clearing, auditing, and “study” doesn’t reinforce this sort of idea.

      • Observer

        Astute observation. I have no doubt that that’s why Ron did it that way.

        • Bella Legosi

          Yes, I have been pondering that diddy ever since I began reading on this cult and it’s practices. I didn’t read Brave New World until after I worked for the $cilon, but when I read it she instantly popped into my mind and that idea has been festering and reinforced ever since.

          I wouldn’t put it past Hub to have taken a few notes from Brave New World, but I honestly think 1984 comes strikingly close to how Co$ operates.

          • Missionary Kid

            I think the concept had been floating around for a long time before 1984. Rote learning is still taught in some countries. It leads to students with little real understanding of the material they have learned, or, for that matter, of the world around them.

      • Peter

        LOL I instantly thought here of those cursed Chinese fire drill repetitions of some piece of tech. I *hated* them!!!

      • richelieu jr

        Funny,w e were just discussing Huxley (the man) on this list a day or so ago! Some of us have met his widow, or are otherwise tied into/connected to the family of the great thinker…

        What a cool coincidence!

        (or…was it?!!!)

        • Bella Legosi

          Niiiiice. See you guys! Bella really is an Eskimo Jedi Knight Wizard!

          Naw…..I believe I remember briefly reading those comments! I had just been too tired and brain drained to comment. I don’t like commenting when my brain isn’t fully working. I am a purist! I like to say what is on my mind, completely and as intelligently as possible!

          • richelieu jr

            That way lies madness! Do as I do (especially if you don’t use your English too much and are a little nervous!): Stay up too late, have a drink too many and then just start typing. Be amazed when you get the responses in your inbox the next morning after you wrote some 15 page, free-form poetry take down of Dianetics patterned after Danté’s Inferno and rythmed to Bitch’s Brew and XTC’s Skylarking playing at the same time.

            “Sleep is for Sissies. Soup is Good Food!”

            • Bella Legosi

              LOL oh riche I do the same thing! Except I reserve those too many drink/adderall, madness soaked, poetry/journaling, writings for actual paper. I am a much better writer with pen and paper; rather then on a computer (alothough I have to admit using spellcheck actually helps me spell better and schools me on correct grammar. My grammar really sucks and on MSWord there are many green squiggle lines)! I reserve typing for revisions and final drafts. Outside of commenting or emails, 100% of my writing is always done on to paper first. I dunno, I feel more comfortable and creative flow with that medium, especially if it is creative writing. I have a bookshelf of a mad cat lady! All the two stacks on the second pic is my ‘work’. The exception being the red encyclopedia set on the bottom 🙂 This is the first time I have had a place for both books and writings. I don’t like to throw away a lot, but have thinned out a lot the past two years.

            • richelieu jr

              I totally understand; I have kept a journal since I was 10, and I have only lost 2 of them in that time…

            • Bella Legosi

              Nice! Sorry about the two you have lost! I absolutely hate that! I went thru much of the accumulated fanfiction I have been writing for the past two years. I prolly had about 200 pages of stuff that I ended up burning. What I have now is stuff that I really do like and continue building on. It almost got to a point where I would get overwhelmed just by the amount I had already written.

  • phronsie

    Man, seems like, since the church is using the tools of psychiatrists/psychologists (hypnosis/mental conditioning), they should be forced to issue some kind of informed consent: “these practices are a form of profound mental conditioning which will lead you to a state of pervasive suggestibility during which periods the auditor will attempt to implant the tenets of Scientology; the signee understands that his perceptions and mental state will be under heightened external influence during auditing session or during the use of anything utilized as Scientology tech.” The purpose of an informed consent is to insure the person undergoing a procedure if fully aware of the purpose and potential dangers of the procedure they are undertaking; it’s to protect them and not the practitioner administering the procedure.

    • Missionary Kid

      I would say that the techniques are not those of psychiatry and psychology. They are not designed to aid a person, but to enslave them.

      • phronsie

        But aren’t hypnosis and conditioning used by mental health professionals to help patients deal with trauma and negative behaviour? A scalpel can be used for good or evil. If Scientology is going to use the tools of licensed medical professionals, I wish they could be legally required to provide informed consent forms (which have to be approved by an external review board), and maybe even HIPAA forms ensuring privacy.

        • Missionary Kid

          Part of the oath of physicians is to do no harm. There is a similar ethical standard for psychologists. Co$ has none.

          Hypnosis and conditioning existed well before either of those professions or Dianutty or Co$ existed.

          Informed consent doesn’t do any good when a person has been conditioned to believe that their salvation depends on a procedure.

          • phronsie

            I follow you; I just wish people off the street had to sign some kind of informed consent before their first session, and that parents had to sign one for each child before their first session. But, I guess, if wishes were horses….

            • Missionary Kid

              Yup. wishes. Besides, they’d scream religious persecution or some other bullshit if something like that was even proposed.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Religious BIGOTRY. That seems to be a set phrase for any criticism.

            • Peter

              Right. Along with “bitter, defrocked apostates”. Frocks? Who wears frocks??? ROFL

            • Missionary Kid

              Defrocked is a common term for clergy who have been thrown out of the ministry.

            • Captain Howdy

              If the government had shut down and outlawed dianetics/scientology as medical fraud back in 50’s, like they should have, that wouldn’t necessary.

            • Gerard Plourde

              Shutting dianetics as a medical fraud was on the verge of success. That’s why Hubbard quickly pivoted to religion (and why e-meters have disclaimers that they are not used for any medical or therapeutic purpose.

            • Captain Howdy

              And once he called it a religion, he was golden, because the U.S is a haven for religious fanaticism.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              The US is a haven for religious freedom. It is also a haven for free thought of all kinds. You gotta take the good with the bad. (And that cuts both ways.)

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              There you go.

            • Captain Howdy

              From what I’ve read registrars routinely tell prospective clients that scientology can cure numerous physical aliments that the person is suffering from. That is medical fraud, is it not?

            • Gerard Plourde

              It is, but since none of the materials or devices claim to cure disease directly they aren’t subject to scrutiny (like those natural remedy ads I keep hearing on satellite radio that end with the disclaimer “this product is not intended to cure any disease.”)

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              They did. But it was Dianetics then. This is why LRH remade the whole thing as a religion.

              Going out on a limb here, but I do not believe the Hubbard really did set out to start a religion. He started out to make money. He presented Dianetics as a modern SCIENCE. Only when he ran afoul of the authorities did he turn the whole thing into a religion, in order to keep that income flowing, and without the oversight of any medical boards.

            • Captain Howdy

              I’m aware of all that. Scientology “the religion” is still engaged in medical fraud and could be charged as such if politicians in general had any balls or morals.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          This was the original disconnect the LRH had with the rest of the world. Dianetics WAS originally presented as professional, medical approach to mental illness and all sorts of dis-ease. As such, it was subject to review by medical boards, who rather quickly identified it as a lot of sheer nonsense. Dianetics turned out to be nothing more than a fad that was shut down by medical authorities. But Hubbard liked the income, so he sold off what was left of Dianetics and repackaged the whole thing as a religion, Scientology.

          And he formed a life-long bitter enmity with any and all medical professionals, especially psychiatry.

    • Actually, people who want auditing or courses, DO have to sign a waiver of sorts. It’s a long, convoluted, cover-our-asses from that evolved over time and was hurried along by Lisa McPherson’s death. I remember going quickly through it, initialing all the required spots and not giving it a second thought. The only thing I did think was that none of the scary things it talked about were ever going to happen. Well. We know how that turns out, don’t we?

      • Couch_Incident

        Fascinating – does anybody have a link to a copy?

  • Bella Legosi

    See, Co$, it is not wise to fuck with England. Queen Lizzie will send her reptilian army of Pycholos all up in your shit! Audit that incident away!

    lol UFOs over Saint Hill……..goddamn that is funny

    After work last night I walked past a booth that said, “Are you going to Heaven? Take a 2 question survey now!” I decided to go and talk to the men inside the booth. They were nice, didn’t love bomb, but were eager and polite. I tried keeping my answers as vauge as I could (Christians really like Bella untill they find out she doesn’t believe in original sin, homophobia, and is fully pro-choice). I decided to bring up $cientology. Surprisingly, the younger minister knew more then I had expected. He said that they have talked to a few scientologists recently and both agreed that those communications were odd/creepy. I told them about the Idle mOrg and Sherlock building purchases, as well as the opening on May 11th. They were surprised to hear this info as it was not on the news. The young minister told me, “Well they are like the KGB! It’s a…..well…..cult” to which the older minister scoffed, so I agreed with the KGB statement and told them about the numerous lawsuits going on now. But when I mentioned the forced abortion, they got real interested and asked where I get my info. They thanked me for showing up May 11th and for pointing them to this blog (I doubt they will show up) and gave me a Bible.

    • Missionary Kid

      Have you taken any trips past the Portland mOrg lately?

      Do they keep those shades drawn most of the time, or can you see the interactive displays playing to no one?

      Co$ is like the KGB. Perfect, although Co$ has outlasted the KGB.

      • Bella Legosi

        Yeah I was by there last night on my way to the bus. It was closed again and this time I was off at 9pm. I haven’t been by there before work, so I can’t speak to the foottraffic going in during the day.

        Today should be another “All are welcome! Open House” because today is the Grand Floral Parade. I am not happy about this, because that means after the parade there will be tons of people packing in the Fest for the last hoorah. And this was the first year Rose Fest didn’t have the Navy stop by. I was really looking forward to that!

        • Missionary Kid

          Thanks for keeping us updated.

          • Bella Legosi

            I try. Lately I have been really hurting and tired after work. I couldn’t sleep tonight and got tired of just laying in bed, so I decided to get some coffee and catch up!

            • Miss Davidoff

              Thank you for that and all the best to you Bella 🙂

            • Bella Legosi

              you are welcome

              😀

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Hope you will be feeling better.

              Would you like to have someone come around with a Touch Assist?

            • Bella Legosi

              Ewwww…….Bella really doesn’t like being touched by strangers. She is fine with giving bums hugs, but draws the line at creepy faith healing. Honestly, I don’t really like massages as it is when done by a boyfriend. And the only one I allow to touch my feet is my mom! Bella is weird like that.

            • sister wendy

              Hahah! imagine how revolting breathing therapy would be for you. Someone comes by, touches you and breathes all over you;) Let’s have you stay away from that one;)

            • Bella Legosi

              EEEWWWWW

              Sister I think you just mentally gave me an engram! I actually shuddered! That’s just…….omg NO NO NO! Horrible! Is that really a $cientology thing? Cuz if it is that is definitely something I will bring up during my rants about their silly ‘therapy’!

            • sister wendy

              No- that’s just a “gross you out” thing. My daughter hates to be touched as well- so I feel familiar with knowing what works for people with those preferences. It’s too bad nothing bothers Davey- we could organize a “Breathe on him Party” and gross him out 😉

            • Bella Legosi

              lol Thanks for telling me! I was all geared up to tell my mom that weirdness! lol Good job, that really did gross me out, to which I shuddered! However, your idea of having a “Breath on Little Boots Party” is genius! Breath don’t leave any marks and I bet he would just lose his shit if that were to happen. hahahaha

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              And Bella speaks in third person, too.

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes, she does. She has an undeniable flare for dramatics! 😉

              I dont really speak in the third person, in real life 🙂

            • sister wendy

              Gute Besserung, Bella- hope you got some sleep…

            • Bella Legosi

              Yeah, sorta, check out the dream I told to Observer! I think I get those dreams when I am seriously wired tired and haven’t decompressed enough! I am getting some major sleep tonight tho! Gonna try to stay up so that I can get on some sort of restful schedule!

            • sister wendy

              I love sleep. I think I’m going to start a sleep therapy- doesn’t that sound wonderful? I had a manger who did it for a year. She just stayed in bed and slept. After that her life got so much easier.

            • Bella Legosi

              lol I would imagine! Sleep is wonderful! I love to just sleep a day away sometimes! It isn’t healthy to do it all the time lol but when you can it is truly therapeutic…….just don’t breath on me! That’s almost as bubble bursting (and creepy) as the “Touch Assist”

            • sister wendy

              touch assists were a bit creepy done by strangers. I could never get into them.

        • SciWatcher

          They’ll probably be out there handing out “The Way to Happiness”

          • Bella Legosi

            You never know! I didn’t hear or over hear/see any pamphlets during the Starlight Parade night.

            I honestly think that the Portland $cinos are keeping a low profile and focusing on bringing people who left or are in active back into the fold. They may have enough whales here in Portland to continue their pathetic operation without actively recruiting new members.

            I was thinking about that in bed last night. I think Co$ knows that they are a mouse fighting a gorrilla when it comes to the net and people who access the net. Their focus is now wrangleing those who think the Internet is something you “install” on a computer or woefully ignorant of the current state of affairs within Co$. My guess is that Portland is home to a lot more Indies then Publics.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          Hmm. The Portland Ideal Org opens, and the Navy skips the Rose Festival.

          Coincidence, or…?

          • Bella Legosi

            Great point! I never thought of it that way! lol However, the Canadian Navy and National Guard showed up, but I didn’t see many of them. It just looked as tho some of the guys were on leave.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      There are Christians who oppose homophobia and are fully pro-choice. But Original Sin is sort of a deal breaker. I am not surprised they were unaware of that big Grand Opening back in May. The CoS really did keep the Most-Important-Event-in-the-History-of-Portland very much to themselves.

      And they GAVE you a Bible? How degrading. They should have at least required you pass out leaflets or sweep their booth. Just to, you know, maintain your dignity.

      • Missionary Kid

        Christians don’t ask for exchange of value. 😉

      • Bella Legosi

        They were quiet surprised at my knowledge of the Bible and how I take many of the teachings. They soon figured out I was not only smart, but also very passionate of keeping something like spirituality pure, as in having a relationship with God should be on your own terms and without the shackles of modern churches, their rules, and self righteousness regarding when and how you should have that relationship with god. They did disagree about my stance on pedophile priests receiving forgiveness, to me that is wholly unforgivable god or no god.

        It was actually pretty nice and destressed me from the shitty night I had had. It has been a long time since I got all spiritual with Born Agains. But, yes, not believing in Original Sin is always a sure fire deal breaker that will make even the most tolerant of Christians change their perspective of you. I learned that in Alaska and it is reinforced everytime my mom and I get into an argument about it.

  • Bella Legosi

    I would have to agree with John that it would take ex scientologists 20 years or more to fully recover. When you have invested so much brain power and money into a system like dianetics or scientology, and have been “faithful” for many years, I can see recovery being not unlike what addicts go thru with recovery. What is more sinister is that the triggers can be something as simple as perfume or scent. To abstain from a drug and the environment is one thing, but to abstain from a way of life and thought process is a whole new, bigger ballpark. And I believe that is one of the reasons recovery takes longer. Especially if your family and eternity are being held ransom

    • Captain Howdy

      The easiest part of recovering from addiction is the physical part. The hardest part is the psychological aspect of it because that’s a 24/7/365 thing until you die. I’m not exactly sure that indoctrination and magical thinking are similar to addiction because for one thing there is most likely a genetic component to addiction..

      • Bella Legosi

        This is true, but I find fanaticism to be very much like psychological addiction. It sticks with you a lot longer then you would think, hard a hell to overcome, and even after you think you kicked the monkey in the sack, triggers come back to bite you in the ass.

        If a certain behavior is practiced (like addiction) among a genetic pool for long enough, would it leave some sort of genetic marker? If that is so I don’t see why something as religion couldn’t be a marker as well. Hell, take altruism as an example. Being selfless or self sacrificing has been reduced down to a pretty simple equation and is the real reason why people do self sacrifice, not out of some spiritual obligation or brownie points in the here after (speaking strictly scientifically). So if the behavior of selflessness can be genetic who is to say that predisposition to religious belief can not also be genetic?

        • Missionary Kid

          To leave a genetic marker would require a lot more than behavior modification.

          From a genetic standpoint, there may be certain genes that predispose an individual to a chemical addiction, but for a psychological addiction, the answer is too complex.

          There are reasons why survival of the species depends on what we call selflessness. I forget which branch of biology that addresses this specifically, but I’ve read some papers on it.

          • Bella Legosi

            My knowledge is pretty limited, but thinking about it in the terms I have written really make me wonder.

          • Bella Legosi

            My knowledge is pretty limited, but thinking about it in the terms I have written really make me wonder.

        • Missionary Kid

          To leave a genetic marker would require a lot more than behavior modification.

          From a genetic standpoint, there may be certain genes that predispose an individual to a chemical addiction, but for a psychological addiction, the answer is too complex.

          There are reasons why survival of the species depends on what we call selflessness. I forget which branch of biology that addresses this specifically, but I’ve read some papers on it.

        • ze moo

          The last few years have found psychologists and geneticists claiming a predisposition to ‘religious’ belief. Your personal genetics are not influenced by what your do, with the exception things that cause cancer. Social animals that we are, humans have evolved traits like empathy and compassion for the troop, tribe or family to survive. Clamatology tries to take that away and substitute total subservience to the COB. You don’t get to sieg heil to Lroon or clamatology, your loyalty is enforced to the current maximum leader of the cult. The clams can fool themselves they are KSW, but they are really just serving Miscavige.

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            I would assume that excessive religious devotion could be related to obsessive/compulsive behaviors. Even among Christians there are people that are privately referred to as “Super Spirituals” or “Faith Addicts” or “Believers in Belief.” They just seem to have faith in faith itself, and only a superficial understanding of why and what they believe.

            • Missionary Kid

              Sounds a lot like my oldest sister, who was enthralled with Dianetics for several months over 50 years ago, then flipped back into a whole series of ultrafundamentalist Christian groups, where she is now.

          • Bella Legosi

            Thank you! Great point! Like I said my knowlege of altruism and genetics is pretty limited, so I am going off what little I have picked up and employing my own logic to it.

      • Imo, there is also most likely a genetic component to being someone who can be more readily indoctrinated by a cult or cult-like group. Some people are more suggestible than others, and I don’t think it’s all nurture. For instance, some people can be hypnotized and others cannot. I’m in the latter group. It doesn’t mean I’m better or worse than people who can be hypnotized. I think people’s brains are structured differently when it comes to this kind of thing.

  • Sidney18511

    I was raised catholic and although I don’t BELIEVE anymore, the one thing that stuck with me is compassion.
    I raised 3 daughters who never set foot in a church and they have more compassion then most Christians I know.
    I am proud of my girls and the wonderful caring woman they have become.

    • 1subgenius

      Lovely.

    • Gerard Plourde

      Your comment is directly on point – the one character trait that binds people together and leads to the betterment of the world is compassion. It’s very telling that this is the trait that Hubbard and Scientology attack relentlessly.

      • Bella Legosi

        If one has compassion then the door is open for that person to be open to hearing criticisms about the church and it’s founder. If you look at it compassion, sympathy, love, empathy are all things that one does out of selflessness (primarily) and the way Co$ seems to be is focus only on the self. It keeps people paying and attending courses, instead of actually doing something to better the rest of us. I see a trap laid in scientology. The only way to “clear” the planet is to first clear yourself and even then it still isn’t really good enough, so you have to become OT. Keeps the people virtual ATMs.

        • Gerard Plourde

          We’re definitely in agreement. See my reply to Exterrier below.

          • FistOfXenu

            But our agreement didn’t create the reality. We just acknowledged it. 😛

            • Bella Legosi

              If I could create my own reality airplanes would not exist, blue jays would be extinct, I would forever be a size 6, and kittys would be able to talk! That’s just for starters! I would clear the planet of all bad science fiction and its most infamous author………..sorry……got possessed by the eternal ghost of Xenu!

            • FistOfXenu

              Who are you PTS to? Report to Ethics!

            • Bella Legosi

              NO NO NO

              I report only to you, Xenu, my high lord of power!

              And I am of the belief I am a PTS to every person that knows not the absolute evil that $cientology can be!

            • Imelda Marcos

              Airplanes?

            • Bella Legosi

              Yep I hate them passionately!

            • Missionary Kid

              Yet you dream of flying.

            • Bella Legosi

              Sometimes, but when I am in a plane in a dream I am not scared to death. But most of the dreams I have had were witnessing dog fights on the ground.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’ve never had a dogfight with guns, but it’s a lot of fun to chase someone else through the sky in 3 dimensions or to fly in formation.

              After doing aerobatics, the “scariest” roller coaster is just an interesting experience. The thing I don’t like about it is that I’m not in control.

              Your experience will be different. The more aerobatic experience one has, the less scary flying becomes.

            • John P.

              You are absolutely right. Aerobatics is better than sex. And roller coasters will forever after elicit a yawn. A friend has a Pitts Special S2, which is the current production model of a classic aerobatic stunt plane that has been around since the 1930s or 1940s. An hour in the Pitts is an adrenaline rush like you’ve never experienced before, and it’s a much more challenging ride than doing aerobatics in a jet fighter — much faster response to control inputs. By the end of a solid hour you are so exhausted you will be lucky to be able to get out of the cockpit under your own power.

              After experiencing aerobatics, a standard rate turn in the jet is boooooring. A standard rate turn is defined as 3 degrees per second — a half minute for a right angle or a minute for a full U-turn when you’re circling or on a “procedure turn” for a complex instrument approach. It takes forever and I’m often sitting there counting out the compass headings feeling like my brains are dripping out of my skull and into my lap. I’ve often gotten impatient and fantasized about disengaging the autopilot and giving the wheel a solid “yank and bank,” though that would cause all sorts of trouble in controlled airspace, even if it didn’t put the jet into a spin.

            • Missionary Kid

              That makes you really appreciate Sean Tucker, doesn’t it? At airshows, since I’ve seen a lot of acts, I usually don’t watch, but when he’s on, I do.

              There’s an urban legend that years ago an ex-fighter jock was bored flying for the airlines as a first officer in a BAC 111. One night, when the captain went to the can, he rolled the plane. Since it was all positive Gs, only the captain and flight crew really knew what happened. They canned the F.O., but that was his way of saying goodbye.

            • John P.

              I hadn’t heard that barrel roll story, but you are probably aware of how Tex Johnston saved Boeing when he won the Air Force contract over the DC-8 (how appropriate for this forum, somehow) by taking the 707 prototype and doing two barrel rolls over Lake Washington. At that point, no self respecting fighter pilot running the Air Force could possibly vote against buying a jetliner that handled like a fighter plane.

            • Missionary Kid

              Supposedly when Johnson landed, the Boeing execs were very unhappy with him – until the orders started to roll in. The video is all over the web and a part of aviation mythology.
              Too bad Tex passed away not long ago. RIP.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Kitties don’t talk? Ours does.

            • Zana

              My kitties talk all the time. They send me messages. One evening I got really high (just for the fun of it and to give a big old “f—you” to Co$. I wanted to make sure that I would NEVER go back and go through all the ethics handling I’d get for getting high.) So, I walked into the living room where my kitties were all hanging out… and, swear to god, I could hear their thoughts. Plain as day. Sheez… I must have been higher than I thought. The 5 of us had a real conversation. And I heard them exchanging thoughts with each other as I was listening in. Strange reality warp. I wondered if this is how LRH got all the information that he threw into those 70 trillion words he threw ontgo paper that he expects us all to believe as gospel. Egad. I turned around and went to bed grinning. He was high — if not all of the time… a lot of the time. And smart people are actually basing their lives on his “discoveries”. Amazing.

              Maybe if Scientologists were not roasted for getting high, they’d realize that he was high as a kite when he was making up all that crap.

            • Bella Legosi

              Oh no I mean for real coversation words! Kinda like Dr.Doolittle but with everyone! I still talk to dogs or cats as if they can fully understand my words and speak to them like people. Part of me hopes they can understand it and the other part really doesn’t care how crazy it looks or sounds

            • Zana

              They ARE other people…with fur heads and crazy ears.

            • Bella Legosi

              Agreed! That is why I talk to them all as such!
              http://youtu.be/QbuV5-v5g-s

            • Zana

              Ahhhh…she’s like Rita Hayworth. Or young Marilyn Monroe.

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes, I loved spending my lunch breaks there! I am going to add to the animal album tomorrow. Getting really sleepy and gonna hit the sack!

            • ThetaBara

              Are you SURE you want to know what your cat
              is thinking?!

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes, yes I do! It has always been one of my wishes that I could understand animals like Dr.Doolittle. Imagine what you could learn from such creatures!!!

            • Bella Legosi

              If I could create my own reality airplanes would not exist, blue jays would be extinct, I would forever be a size 6, and kittys would be able to talk! That’s just for starters! I would clear the planet of all bad science fiction and its most infamous author………..sorry……got possessed by the eternal ghost of Xenu!

            • Gerard Plourde

              Correct. The reality exists outside of and, I would submit, independent of us – an objective reality.

            • FistOfXenu

              It’s how we do stuff in the real world. 🙂

            • FistOfXenu

              It’s how we do stuff in the real world. 🙂

            • Gerard Plourde

              Correct. The reality exists outside of and, I would submit, independent of us – an objective reality.

    • Anonymookme

      When a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Jew, etc decide to no longer practice their faith, they just walk away. No “fair game”, no free loader debt, no being stalked, chased and harassed by members of their faith.
      I think maybe one of the reasons sci’s take so long to recover from the indoctrination is that their whole belief system is shrouded in forced secrecy.

      • Pete Cockerell

        I assume your “etc” didn’t include “Muslim”. Apostates from Islam can pay the ultimate price (and indeed, according to its tenets, MUST do so), and we’re taking about the world’s second most popular religion here.

        I’m slowly coming to the realization that what make Scientology so “special” is not that it does evil on anything like the scale of the mainstream religions (I’m looking at you, The Catholic Church), but that it distills the worst excesses of all nonsense belief systems into a handy pocket-sized cult (with a handy pocket-sized leader), and then throws in a few of its own. Which isn’t to say it doesn’t aspire to wreak its madness on a much larger scale, of course.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          You got that right. There are also some Fundamentalist sects of other religions that exact revenge on those who stray.

      • Missionary Kid

        There is disconnection among various sects and individual churches. There is also the annoying attempts that can be made to bring one back into the flock by guilt or social or economic pressure. That can be particularly devastating if one lives in a small community that has a large population of that group.

        Nothing, however, approaches the evil of the Co$ disconnection policy.

        My dad tried, practically on his deathbed at 90 to “save” me.

        • DeElizabethan

          Wow!

          • Missionary Kid

            I can forgive him, and I loved him, but that doesn’t stop me from saying he was an asshole to his family.

            I’ve said it before that he suffered from the “missionary neurosis,” which meant he took care of everyone else before his family. That was, he felt, his calling, to “save the world for Jesus.”

            • Kim O’Brien

              i remember as a kid ( irish / italian catholic ) going to church .One of the things that really really bugged me was the ” follow me and have no thought for the morrow ” message . It always fucked me up that he asked his apostles to leave their families and follow him . My natural father split when i was little and bounced back and forth into my life . Why would the son of god be OK with leaving your kids and family ? I was raised to think that family is the glue that holds people together ..so why would god think it was ok for me to feel the loss of a father like i did ? How does that make the world and life better ? Who leaves their kids ? I was leaving the church before my first communion and did not even know it . After my communion ..i had a conversation with the priest . I asked some pretty good and logical questions ..that of a child …and i knew that when he answered me ..he was at BEST guessing …and at worst ..lying to my face. I really never went back after communion … there are more layers to the story but that kind of sums it up ( minus being put in the corner for knowing that you can’t get knocked up without having sex but that is another story ) The fact that i have aunts who are nuns ..one is a mother superior..and religion made me realize that religion is bullshit …has made for some interesting family dinners but we are STILL family . Scientologists ….take note .

            • Missionary Kid

              One thing I never thought of until you put it that way is that the disciples could have been married and had children. For some reason, I always assumed they were single.

              My father suffered from PTSD from the things that he witnessed from the Japanese invasion of China, the devastation after the war, and the Communist revolution, which took away 17 years of his life’s work. I can say that he was not a hypocrite, and I always had lived with my parents.

              After hanging around Hong Kong for a while after the Revolution, we left for the U.S., where I grew up.

              My father really tried hard to save souls. On the other hand, he was very passive aggressive and manipulative in the way that he acted towards the family.

              As for the religious part, I realized quite young that I didn’t feel the same way that my parents did about religion. I didn’t question things all that hard, or rebel, but the whole attitude towards dancing and the opposite sex that our church had was very repressive, and I discovered I not only loved to dance, but girls, and I went to public school the whole time. Luckily, when I graduated from high school, my parents went back to the mission field and I left for college.

              That’s when my search for a different religious life came to be. I had learned that ministers were people, and I accorded them respect, but I had none of the halo effect that people have towards them. Now, my attitude is, O.K., your job is to be a priest or minister, so what? It just means you drank the Kool Aid extra deep.

              In middle age, I was driven into a deep depression when I became responsible for my father’s care, and I not only realized the passive-aggressive and manipulative nature had gotten worse with age, but that those were the characteristics of my ex- wife. I had married someone who had the personality I was comfortable with.

              What is it with Catholics and their nuns? It’s almost as if because they aren’t allowed priesthood and positions of higher authority that they turned into mini-tyrants towards children. Between them and the priests, it seems that they enjoyed oppressing children a bit too much.

              The kindness of nuns portrayed in movies as running cheerful orphanages or being singing nuns is counterbalanced by kids having their hands whacked by rulers and the striving for unquestioned obedience from kids to the point of sadism that many people who were in contact with them tell about.

              The all-encompassing life that fundamentalist churches provided as well as the manipulation of guilt and threatening of eternal damnation if one does not obey and the heavy emphasis on scripture were things that I had to overcome. The peer pressure to conform is high. Those are reasons that I identify with ex-$cientologists who have had to endure a much more extreme form of what I did.

      • richelieu jr

        “When a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Jew, etc decide to no longer
        practice their faith, they just walk away. No “fair game”, no free
        loader debt, no being stalked, chased and harassed by members of their
        faith.”

        This need just one slight amendment..”..nowadays.” It was not always thus.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      I agree that morals and compassion are not exclusive to people of faith.

      Sorry to say it, but I do know that the reason many people don’t like Christianity is because they have met a Christian.

      • SciWatcher

        Yeah, definitely. I always find it interesting that the countries with the strongest social programs are the most secular.

      • Missionary Kid

        As my father used to say, if someone has to tell you they’re a Christian businessman, hold on to your wallet.

        • Zana

          Right on. Someone brags about being Christian I start looking for the jive. Whew.

    • richelieu jr

      The ting for me is, you probably had plenty of compassion to begin with, @Sidney18511:disqus ..

      Glad you kept it, and glad it is part of Catholicism, but I resist any idea that morality must spring from religion. We who don’t believe somehow avoid raping children just fine, and we do a lot of good, too..

  • Xique

    I like John’s line “I’m opposed to Scientology, not those who have been infected by it.” That’s it! It’s an infection that takes time to heal, sadly quite a bit of time. I so appreciate your words John, thank you.

    • richelieu jr

      I’ve met an awful lot of $cilons I really liked. No SeaOrg folks, though as they kind of just hustle on by and are puzzled if addressed, in my experience…

      • Missionary Kid

        It’s because they’re sleepwalking, in a hypnotized state, IMO.

        • sister wendy

          I wonder- seems right on, that thought…

      • Zana

        Same here. I’ve met some wonderful people whom I really admire who are Scientologists. Many of them are still in. The Sea Org folks?….well, I could never relate to being in the army. Any time any of them tried to recruit me to the SO I would just tell them that I couldn’t imagine wearing the same thing every day, plus, blue isn’t in my color palate. I’d kind of get a blank stare. They really didn’t know how to respond. Then I knew that we had nothing in common.

      • Xique

        Me too

  • Truthiwant

    I’ve got a new story out.

    In a way it’s quite pertinent to the article today and the humour is certainly bitter sweet.

    You can get it here:

    http://wp.me/s3a0JR-579

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Well written. I really wanted to get into that story and advise our hero that, as an OTIII he really did not have to put up with the regging.

      Oral Roberts, the famed evangelist/faith healer, would often tell his employees who were seeking higher salaries that “God is your source of total supply, not Oral Roberts.” So when some of them then received pledge requests for the Oral Roberts Ministry, they sent the pledge slips back with the note, “God is your source of total supply, not me” scrawled across them.

      Years ago, when I was doing some work for a large Christian ministry, a high level flunky called me in to his office to explain why they were turning down my proposed budget, and suggested I should cut back on the amount they would pay me. When I explained that I had purposely kept my personal costs as lean as possible, he began piously quoting scripture at me. When he took a pause, I said, “The workman is worthy of his hire” (I Timothy 5:18) and hit the door.

      Happy ending– I got called back a day later and they agreed to my budget as proposed.

      • Truthiwant

        Regging is one of the fundamental brain washing tricks of Scientology.

        There are basically two ways of regging for the IAS:

        The firsy way is quite simple and consists of lying to the donor, telling him the most incredible stories to convince him to donate.

        The second way is more surreptitious. It involves threatening the donor to donate. Things like “You will never attain your next level if you do not give us the money now”. This method has obviously been worked out in total agreement with the Registrar for the PC’s auditing cycle.

    • SciWatcher

      Jeeze, is that really how regging works?

      • Truthiwant

        The answer is unfortunately yes.
        I don’t know how much you know about regging cycles but I can tell you that the IAS get away with murder.
        Obviously in my story I have tried to condense what might happen and I have tried to add humour to the whole story as it is a satitical parody on Scientology. However, the IAS think of themselves as the Gods of fundraising.
        But the real disturbing factor is that the Scientologist often gives in to the requests of the IAS. This is where the Scientologist and in particular, the OT is obviously brainwashed in to believing what is being told to him.

        • SciWatcher

          Wow, crazy

  • Marta

    Excellent post, Jon. Thank you – and thank you, Tony. Personally, “throwing the baby out with the bath water” was the real start of recovery. The self work of inspecting paradigms adopted from Hubbard’s continues. I think the hidden, and always denied, hypnotic influence throughout Scientology’s practices may be a major contributor to the long recovery. The ideas are deeply layered in over time…”made your own” repeatedly. Effectively hiding Hubbard as the source of the ideas, which you’ve accepted as “truths”, while holding him up as Source of Truth. Such a mindfcuk.

    • Peter

      Even more subtly destructive is that “Source” is never defined as you did here. He is simply SOURCE on anything to most of those still in.

      I would love to know where he came up with the Code of Honour, a piece which I regularly read from time to time. It always made great sense to me and he managed to violate almost every aspect of it in his work and writings. Disconnection, for instance, is totally opposed to “Never let your affinity be alloyed”, something he demanded of all adherents if he said they must. And we know he did “steal” from others regularly. So such a high minded piece was most appealing. That he did not himself live by those rules somehow seemed to get buried in all the other BS.

  • villagedianne

    There are a lot of spiritual traditions which hold that, in a cosmic sense, we create our own reality and our own life circumstances. But that does not mean we should not have compassion, or that we should engage in victim-bashing. This is where Scientology goes over to the dark side.
    The philosophy of creating your own life circumstances only makes sense if you believe in past lives, which is a common belief in many areas of the world. Hubbard took existing ideas and created an evil structure around them.

    • Gerard Plourde

      “There are a lot of spiritual traditions which hold that, in a cosmic sense, we create our own reality and our own life circumstances.”

      I think it’s nearer the mark to say that our actions conform to reality. I don’t think a Buddhist or Hindu would say that we are creating our own reality in the cycle of reincarnation. Our experience of the passage of time may be a construct of the universe we inhabit and may not be true in a larger reality of which we are not aware.

    • Gerard Plourde

      “There are a lot of spiritual traditions which hold that, in a cosmic sense, we create our own reality and our own life circumstances.”

      I think it’s nearer the mark to say that our actions conform to reality. I don’t think a Buddhist or Hindu would say that we are creating our own reality in the cycle of reincarnation. Our experience of the passage of time may be a construct of the universe we inhabit and may not be true in a larger reality of which we are not aware.

    • Peter

      A good point here, Dianne, is the vast difference between “spiritual” and “religious” things.

      I would disagree that “creating your own life circumstances only makes sense if you believe in past lives”. It seems to me that thinking of oneself as a creative being and making life decisions on an almost daily basis, whether or not one believes in reincarnation”, creates a great sense of responsibility for one’s life and the desire to make better decisions now than previously. And responsibility, in my lexicon, does NOT equate with shame, blame or regret, as is so often the case with the casual misuse of such words by those trying to control their children, friends, students, employees, etc. Note that the hub and DM’s response to anything which hasn’t/hadn’t gone the way they had desired was to instantly act to find someone to BLAME for it. And it still goes on.

      • villagedianne

        You make a good point about taking responsibility.
        What I meant is when is when bad things happen to innocent people, or to children who have not had decision making as part of their lives. For instance, if an underage (or any age, for that matter) girl gets raped, Scientology will say that she pulled it in, and actually blames her for it. However, a good spiritual tradition, even if they have the belief that the causes for such a thing are karmic, do not engage in victim bashing.

  • aquaclara

    Jon, thanks for this today, and for your work in helping exes break free. There is so much in what you’ve added here today. I hope that the compassion and the candid conversations continue, too. Because even 12 years is too much time to recover…let alone more than that. Horrible to think of all that time lost.

    I think the humor stirred into the pot here and in other places has to help. And the access to several forums like here gives exes a chance to read, share and heal. Perhaps most helpful are the sheer number of excellent books now out, available in libraries, bookstores and e-readers. There is so much coming out now, and evidence that there is less reason to fear facing the cult as an ex. We still have a long way to go, but there has been so much progress even in the last couple of years.

    Love your book. Thank you.

  • BosonStark

    Although Jon’s concern has been for those who have been involved with Scientology, his book and essays have probably helped some people avoid involvement, and have also helped the parents and friends of people who are or were involved.

    I think some people who are either snagged by or vulnerable to the promises of Scientology, are the same people who would never read a critical book about it, or a book by an ex-member. Young people especially want to believe it is going to help them, and they trust their desires. They don’t want to expend what they feel is negative energy reading the other side.

    Another problem is that unlike drug addiction or alcoholism, the effects of Scientology addition are not visible to most people. I grew up not seeing what Scientology did to people either way. Well, after all, it’s a secretive cult. Tom Cruise in his video is first person who gave me an ear full of the type of thinking a Scientologist adopts. I was shocked at how fascist and extremely deluded it sounded.

    Reading more about it, the lack of compassion and sympathy, with this stuff about “raw meat” and finding people’s “ruin” to get them buying into it. I mean it is just repulsive that popular figures like Travolta and Cruise draw people into this trap, with their advocacy for it.

    I think one thing active Scientologists must be held accountable for is their ignorance of Hubbard’s well documented life. They have no excuse now. A Pulitzer Prize winner has written an excellent book about it and there’s no place left to hide.

  • BosonStark

    Although Jon’s concern has been for those who have been involved with Scientology, his book and essays have probably helped some people avoid involvement, and have also helped the parents and friends of people who are or were involved.

    I think some people who are either snagged by or vulnerable to the promises of Scientology, are the same people who would never read a critical book about it, or a book by an ex-member. Young people especially want to believe it is going to help them, and they trust their desires. They don’t want to expend what they feel is negative energy reading the other side.

    Another problem is that unlike drug addiction or alcoholism, the effects of Scientology addition are not visible to most people. I grew up not seeing what Scientology did to people either way. Well, after all, it’s a secretive cult. Tom Cruise in his video is first person who gave me an ear full of the type of thinking a Scientologist adopts. I was shocked at how fascist and extremely deluded it sounded.

    Reading more about it, the lack of compassion and sympathy, with this stuff about “raw meat” and finding people’s “ruin” to get them buying into it. I mean it is just repulsive that popular figures like Travolta and Cruise draw people into this trap, with their advocacy for it.

    I think one thing active Scientologists must be held accountable for is their ignorance of Hubbard’s well documented life. They have no excuse now. A Pulitzer Prize winner has written an excellent book about it and there’s no place left to hide.

    • Gerard Plourde

      ” I mean it is just repulsive that popular figures like Travolta and Cruise draw people into this trap, with their advocacy for it.”

      I think that the situations of Travolta and Cruise are different. I think that Travolta is trapped in the cult by the fear of disclosure the contents of his auditing materials. I think that Cruise is a willing adherent who enjoys the sense of power and control.

      • BosonStark

        Even being trapped though, that’s no excuse for not reading about Hubbard’s life, the history of Scientology, and how their cult operates..

        • Gerard Plourde

          I agree.

        • Actually, that’s the whole point: it IS an excuse for not reading (the truth) about Hubbard’s life, the history of scn, etc. You even used the words “being trapped.” Well, the folks inside are exactly that — trapped and conditioned and not able to look any further. I think we’ve had this discussion before. You seem to believe that people can behave rationally even when they’ve had their ability to do so subverted. And I want to make you understand that, while a person is in the thrall of hubbard, they cannot, will not, may not, look at any critical (even if completely true) material. I truly wish it was otherwise.

      • BosonStark

        Even being trapped though, that’s no excuse for not reading about Hubbard’s life, the history of Scientology, and how their cult operates..

      • ze moo

        TC and JTs influence on potential fresh meat is probably overrated,like them. If a person is going to be influenced by celebrity endorsement, they can be influenced by a lot of potentially unsavory things. Everyone who promotes CO$ has to be held responsible for their actions or inactions. I am rooting for the disaster called ‘after earth’.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBPXdhd5B8Y

        • Missionary Kid

          Leno said something like it could only be shot in a place where there are no other people, like a theater showing After Earth.

          • ze moo

            Now that Leno has ‘short timers’ attitude, I hope for more clamatology jokes.

            • Missionary Kid

              He told another joke just after that, and it didn’t get much reaction. He then said something like, “Well, I liked it, and I’m leaving soon, so I don’t care.” The audience laughed and applauded.

        • Spackle Motion

          OMG. I have never seen that before. I love Robot Chicken.

          Jar Jar Binks was enough for me to never see another George Lucas Star Wars movie.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFcs9hIn_Qs

      • richelieu jr

        What could possibly be worse in Travolta’s files than what is openly bandied a bout n the Net with his name attached? We know he’s gay. Anyone who doesn’t know it now has their head deep into Dianetics or the sand. He wouldn’t lose a single fan who has stuck with him, and the world has changed since…

        Did her kill someone? I have trouble believing it, just as i don’t believe anyone cares whether he’s pitching or receiving, on whose team and for how many innings…

        They could have photos of him surfing into San Francisco on a Tsunami of Rod Stewart’s sperm, pulled by a team of Richard Gere’s used gerbils, lubing himself up to insert a to-scale mode of the Washington Monument whilst blowing his nose in the constitution and it wouldn’t cause half the damage to his career that Battlefield Earth did..

        C’mon, he’s either got to really believe, or he’s a moron (these categories are obviously not mutually exclusive)… He claims not to look at entheta, in which case he’s just as guilty as if he found Ron’s manuscripts and helped him pull them out of his red-freckled ass for him.

        Cheney et al shouldn’t be excused from knowing about torture and no WMDs being found in Iraq with the ‘Sorry, we only watch Fox’ excuse. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

        • sister wendy

          well- I think he probably doesn’t mind about the gay/bi thing. It’s very likely something else entirely…or rather – a lot of something elses. Like- let’s say even Kelly P knows about him- they are in a committed relationship they both agreed to- but let’s say he’s cheated (like something she didn’t know about and promised he wouldn’t do-I’m not talking about the stuff we hear about in the press) or that he switched some money around, or lied to her, or some producers, or friends- not about being gay- but about anything else. Or manipulating a role he got, or manipulating money. Or lying to your mother….. All the little things we do that you normally just keep private, if he has had any auditing or sec checks- (and he was sincerely disclosing) they know EVERYTHING. The gay thing is probably not it, really. There’s probably something else that would hurt his family or relationships that he doesn’t those people to find out about. I think he could give a crap about fans and the general public finding out. I think he’s afraid his life would be ruined. And he’d be disconnected. And it’s very possible he doesn’t really know. They are GREAT at keeping that stuff hidden from people at the CC’s. You are all just evil entheta people trying to destroy man’s sanity over here from their perspective….really.

        • Gerard Plourde

          “C’mon, he’s either got to really believe, or he’s a moron (these categories are obviously not mutually exclusive)… He claims not to look at entheta, in which case he’s just as guilty as if he found Ron’s manuscripts and helped him pull them out of his red-freckled ass for him.”

          Sadly, based on based on your analysis, I would have to agree. And it’s probably both of your categories.

    • Gerard Plourde

      ” I mean it is just repulsive that popular figures like Travolta and Cruise draw people into this trap, with their advocacy for it.”

      I think that the situations of Travolta and Cruise are different. I think that Travolta is trapped in the cult by the fear of disclosure the contents of his auditing materials. I think that Cruise is a willing adherent who enjoys the sense of power and control.

  • Bella Legosi

    http://www.chron.com/business/press-releases/article/Church-of-Scientology-Honors-Florida-Human-Rights-4573006.php

    Just came across this…………..wonder if Tommy was in attendance? I really do not think he blew, I belive he routed out. The article that came out when Wright’s book was published stated that he moved with Jessica to Texas and was living with her Gordon Geko-esk family. I reserve the right to be wrong on this. However, the linked article was interesting and worth sharing.

    lol gee doesn’t look like anyone has bothered to comment on that story yet……the comment section is at 0

    • Pepsicat

      Gracia Bennet, a Scientologist (http://news.cision.com/church-of-scientology-international/r/meet-a-scientologist-gracia-bennish–art-and-soul,c9270945), gets an award….by Scientology….at a Scientology hosted function. That’s big news….yawn.

      But what’s with the House of Representatives logo in the background of that picture. Isn’t there something illegal about that?

    • Pepsicat

      Gracia Bennet, a Scientologist (http://news.cision.com/church-of-scientology-international/r/meet-a-scientologist-gracia-bennish–art-and-soul,c9270945), gets an award….by Scientology….at a Scientology hosted function. That’s big news….yawn.

      But what’s with the House of Representatives logo in the background of that picture. Isn’t there something illegal about that?

      • Bella Legosi

        I was more interested in the location and hours this woman “volunteered” in one year. As for the shitty pic, I did notice House of Reps, but it doesn’t come as a shock to me anymore to see something like it tho.

        • Peter

          I suspect they give those dreamed up “awards” specifically to get such logos in the background shots. You may be sure the photogs are instructed carefully about things like that. It’s called “credibility by association” and the hub caught onto that long before he dreamt up Dn.

          • Bella Legosi

            They have no shame. Especially when stroking the egos of politicians and celebrities to fuel their own criminal empire. And unfortunately among the less informed, “I only get my news from one source” public, it tends to work. Cuz, if there is a frontman/woman who is trustworthy enough willing to even compliment Co$ and it’s “good works” organizations, doubt about their wretched religion can be easily washed away. But, that is really beginning to change! I thank Uncle Cosmo for that!

        • SciWatcher

          It’s weird, all of the photos that the Cult have put out in their PR releases recently have been really blurry like that. Ever since Portland.

          • Bella Legosi

            I haven’t noticed that! But then again I have been stuck in a trailer for 3 weeks selling overpriced candy crack (in all forms) to kids and parents! Today is really the first day I have been “back”.

    • BosonStark

      I bet DM considered Tommy’s statements to Wright unforgivable, about the whole thing being based on a lie. It was as if Tommy started thinking or using ordinary reason right in front of Wright, and that is not allowed in his cult, especially by their spokesliar. He was probably told he needed to take a vacation for this lifetime, and was given a nice retirement bonus but it may also have coincided with his wife’s illness which made a convenient escape hatch.

      I would have thought Tommy “Xenu” Davis would have remained in place in his other role as Scilebrity wrangler, since he was the popular kid of Anne Do-I-look-brainwashed-to-you Archer. They do have a planet to enslave, with their Scilebrities leading the charge.

      I can’t help but believe that following the Cruise divorce, Travolta’s massage issues, the Wright book and Jenna’s book, the cult has gone into lock-down, and they are going to play up the “under-siege” angle until the bitter end. I think this will work with the Scilebrities and whales, but not with the rest of the cult. The public’s awareness has grown too much.

      • Bella Legosi

        Right on the freaking nose! Thinking of what you wrote brought to mind the idea that Little Boots prolly wanted Tommy’s ass in the Hole for making the statements he did (not to mention the epic failure to confront and shatter Sweeny), but seeing as how he was such a “likeable” and goodlooking spokesman who put himself out there as well as defend the “faith”, it wouldn’t look too good to staff and public if Tommy did go “missing”. You also have to consider his mother and if she found out that everything Sweeny brought up was indeed true and that her son went thru this horrid treatment by a so called “religion”, I would have to expect her to change her tune awefully fast. That is the downside to celebrity followers. If the water muddys and they don’t want to drink it (and speak out), many people with in as well as out would listen eagerly.

        I bet that whole Tommy D flab really burned Little Boots ass.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Scientology is a map of Hubbard’s illnesses. Scientologists study how to be like Ron, what would Ron do? In short, they must take on the symptoms of all or some of these disorders:

    Narcissistic personality disorder
    Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
    Attention Deficit Disorder
    Antisocial Personality
    Hypochondria
    Paranoid schizophrenia
    Dementia, drug/alcohol delusion

    • Gerard Plourde

      Sadly, that about sums it up.

    • Missionary Kid

      In layman’s terms, (and this applies equally to DM) asshole.

    • Missionary Kid

      Thinking further, the worst part of those illnesses is that he tried to infect his followers with them, too.

      • Miss Davidoff

        I think it was more than just the intention to infect them. He wanted to assimilate and consume them / us. The Commodores Messenger Organization is the most visible example of his insatiable desire to suck life force and assimilate souls from wherever he could get them. And Annie Broekers sad life story could be seen like a parabel of what it meant to be assimilated completely by Hubbards soul sucking cult.

        • Captain Howdy

          That is far and away the creepiest LRH photo I’ve ever seen.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          There’s a great science fiction book on this theme: Dinner at Deviant’s Palace, by Tim Powers. I don’t read a lot of science fiction, but someone persuaded me to read this one, and now I really like Powers.

          Dinner at Deviant’s Palace is set in an indeterminate time in a future dystopian Los Angeles, in which Greg Rivas is set the task of “deprogramming” a young lady who has fallen under the thrall of a powerful religion led by a Norton Jaybush. The set up and denouement are very intricate and well worth the investment of time.

          Fun fact: Powers is one of the advisors to those L. Ron Hubbard fiction awards.

          • Miss Davidoff

            Thanks for the info, Douglas 🙂

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Scientology is a map of Hubbard’s illnesses. Scientologists study how to be like Ron, what would Ron do? In short, they must take on the symptoms of all or some of these disorders:

    Narcissistic personality disorder
    Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
    Attention Deficit Disorder
    Antisocial Personality
    Hypochondria
    Paranoid schizophrenia
    Dementia, drug/alcohol delusion

  • softparade

    I am a long time reader and fan. I read this article about an anonymous member. I think its a good reminder to the hard work anonymous does increasing accountability and transparency. This particle person is facing government retribution, and I think the more people that are witness to his case the better.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/kyanonymous-fbi-steubenville-raid-anonymous

  • Schockenawd

    I’ve always wondered how people make the leap from knowing little or nothing about Hubbard to thinking he is omniscient. He had no credentials except the ones he invented, and these days it’s hard to swing a cat without running into proof to debunk all of his claims. So, how do people convince themselves to continue the lock, stock and barrel routine where LRH’s drivel is concerned? Really, how does that work?

    • Missionary Kid

      By isolation from other influences and information, then redefinition of terms, then reshaping one’s psychological reactions, which is done from the beginning.

      By giving a person a few minor “wins” and love bombing them from the beginning.

      The whole process is not logical, but emotional, and the emotional part of us is very powerful.

      • Miss Davidoff

        This is exactly how it works 🙂 Plus the fact that we are gregarious animals and the need of belonging to a group in order to survive is deeply engrained in our genes and behavioral patterns.

        After all those years I still have a tendency to be attracted to cults, alternative world views, simple and wonderful solutions etc.. Fortunately it´s not forbidden to learn from ones experiences. I know about my weakness and I make plenty of use of the internet to debunk the latest guru, master, sage, whatever whenever I realize that my newly found source of wisdom has become a little too important for me.

        It´s also a hands on course in critical thinking.

        I love to immerse myself deeply in schools of thinking and the “trying on of different worldviews” can be fun. The net is a wonderful means to keep my balance and not to get eaten up by any “universal truth” again.

        Being mostly unconscious about my appetite for “simple and powerful solutions” plus the absence of the net (i.e. intellectual and spiritual isolation) were the perfect set up for my extended stay $cinoland.

        • Missionary Kid

          We run into problems when hope overrules logic.

          Try the baloney detection kit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU

          • LemonLemon

            This was really great! It was interesting to watch and scientology is debunked at every step. Thanks for sharing.

          • Miss Davidoff

            Poor Dr. Hubbard was loosing all along 🙁
            Thank you MK, I will keep this for future reference.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Love the Shermer! Thanks for posting this here in this thread.

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            “Fads and Fallacies” by Martin Gardner, the excerpt of that book, that lays out where Hubbard factually fit in, in 1950, is a must read:

            http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/gardner/index.html

            The full book, is a must read.

            Gardner in later years wrote a couple more times on Hubbard.

            Too bad Gardner died in the 1990s, he was a great debunker of Scientology’s “OT” claims.

            I think Gardner’s book, putting Hubbard in 1952 into the crank pseudo-science category, should get more emphasis in overall Scientology’s article, someday in the future, when interest finally dies down about Scientology, and the Wikipedia authors who’ve done all the great articles on Hubbad and Scientology and the “OT Levels” etc, etc, on Wikipedia someday finally shorten down to some final summarizing statements about what Scienotlogy is.

            Michael Shermer’s “out of the body” YouTube video discussion, is helpful to see “exteriorization” and out of the body experiences, properly. (Exteriorization = hallucination, in other words)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0

            • Missionary Kid

              I got into a long discussion with an Indie who landed on this site. Apparently, it impressed him that I had had several out of body experiences.

              Pulling Gs in a centrifuge to near blackout condition

              In an altitude chamber with induced hypoxia.

              Going under and coming out of anesthesia.

              Using childbirth relaxation techniques instead of xylocaine at the dentist (I’m a male, but they were used by my wife in childbirth)

              Under hypnosis.

              He reported back to Marty that in essence there was something wrong with me because I just couldn’t see how right LRH was. He couldn’t accept that there might be other explanations for the phenomena.

              Exteriorization is indeed hallucination, or, in the cases of oxygen deprivation of the brain, an attempt by the brain to rationalize what was going on around one when it isn’t working right.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              great.

              It was stories like yours that helped re-educate me, that people who had these seemingly fantastic out of body experiences, were capable of themselves realizing these were hallucinations, and thus Hubbard’s take on out of the body was simply him siding with human history anecdotal accounts. Angels, ghosts, all the spirit world activity, and then oneself having an out of body hallucination, just seems to be sometihng that like Shermer was driving at, it’s something that should be scientifically proven or disproven.

              All spiritual activity should just calmly be scientifically proven!

              Past/future lives should just be calmly scientifically backed up and proven.

              The Shermer video on Baloney Test, is the simplest easiest way to just go ahead and show this all is scientifically real, and just change human history with the proof.

              But the proof is only subjective, can’t be yet backed up with science, at least the Scientologists aren’t willing to accept the science, but this MRI stuff to the temp lobes of the brain seems to be disproving that out of the body is a spiritual event, and instead it proves it’s a hallucination.

              Eventually those steadfast Scientologists who are convinced of their out of the body experiences are just those momentary unduplicatable moments, and they never get the solid ability to repeat this “going exterior” at will, I’d at least hoped they’d do like the now dead Ingo Swan did, and participate in scientific experimenting to improve these ESP abilities and really prove them.

              Instead, what the hardcore believers, some, have done is say it’s govt conspiracy that these ESP experiments are still going on, but the govt faked shutting the ESP warefare stuff down, etc, etc.

              Sort of like Hubbard’s glorious (unreleased) war records are really confid, and hidden and can’t be published by the govt.

              The Shermer list of ways to detect baloney gets Scientology every time, alas.

            • Missionary Kid

              One cannot prove or disprove that there are future or past worlds, or, for that matter, parallel universes. It’s all a matter of conjecture and faith.

              Out of body experiences, on the other hand, are able to be reproduced. Theo the Greek would not hear that there was any other way to have one except the way that LRH dictated it to be. Alternate explanations are not accepted by the true believer.

              ESP and telekinesis, if true, would mean that spies would be unnecessary, and that there would be some person able to control dice or roulette or able to perform incredible golf putts.

            • Zana

              Maybe it was just the drugs. ??

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I have the 1957 edition of Fads and Fallacies. Interesting to read a contemporary “take” on L. Ron Hubbard. Amazing, isn’t it, that so many people saw through him from the very beginning.

          • sister wendy

            great reference, MK- thanks:)

        • richelieu jr

          Keep seeking, just don’t stop thinking…

          • Miss Davidoff

            Very good advice, especially from a Cardinal 😉

            Or like Michael Shermer puts it in this video recommended to me by Missionary Kid today:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmRbSX8Rqo

            “You want to have a mind open enough to accept radical new ideas but not so open that your brains fall out”.

    • Gerard Plourde

      Your post points to a key reason why they’re not attracting new members. So much of their secret beliefs and practices is readily available which was not the case before the internet.

      • Missionary Kid

        Also, their highest visibility Scion, Cruise, as well as other celebrities have become looked upon as loons. That sure doesn’t help.

        • MissCandle

          The New York Times reported today that Tom Cruise attended Walmart’s annual meeting as an “unpaid” corporate advocate. So now we know that he supports two major violators of human rights.

          • Captain Howdy

            What a douche.

      • Missionary Kid

        Also, their highest visibility Scion, Cruise, as well as other celebrities have become looked upon as loons. That sure doesn’t help.

      • BosonStark

        Even access to their fee structure, finding out a trip to Flag for a single upper level may cost $20,000 to $50,000 for a person to do, could give a new member a different perspective.

        Before the Internet, people would only think in terms of how affordable the introductory courses were and thought that if they liked it, there would be ways (going on staff, joining the Sea Org, getting loans) to get them higher. It was embarrassing to ask about prices.

        Certainly now, it’s less embarrassing to look those things up on the web and also may as well check out the stories of people who spent years in the Sea Org.

        Under the constant pressure to give more money, you would think the newbies, at least, would check the Internet out to see if they really are clearing the planet.

        • Missionary Kid

          When one is in an emotional state, convinced that they want or need something, outside information is not sought.

          When you’re convinced that the cute little sports car is going to be a bunch of fun, usually you don’t check Consumer Reports to find out that it isn’t reliable.

          • BosonStark

            However, carrot-on-a-stick secrets have always been a major component of the Scientology scam — the big win happens at the next level.

            Now that the information in the levels is easily accessible — not only what these levels contain, but what it was like for other people who have done these levels — it’s just a matter of time before the curiosity that gets people into a scam like Scientology, transfers in part to the information on the web.

            Members were trapped in a pressure cooker of sorts. They had nowhere to turn when a group showed up at their house to gang-reg them into a $60,000 trip to Flag. Maybe they still feel trapped but they do have the Internet, and it’s no longer a matter of having to find some obscure book that is out-of-print and has been stolen from libraries, as Paulette Cooper’s book was.

            • Missionary Kid

              The problem is that the basic programming a $cion is subjected to labels outside information not from Co$ as entheta.

              One could hope that curiosity and the discomfort they feel leads them to the internet. It’s a case of “none so blind as those who will not see.”

            • Miss Davidoff

              Wonderful description Boson.

              This is what I tried to say in my post below:

              “it’s just a matter of time before the curiosity that gets people into a
              scam like Scientology, transfers in part to the information on the web”.

            • richelieu jr

              This is why they immediately go to work on the independent thinking and openness that got youin ther eint he first place; WHilst patting you on the back for being so clever and thinking so independently, they simultaneously begin to punish exactly the same things and train you to censor yourself much better than they ever could…

            • Miss Davidoff

              So true. You experienced it yourself, didn´t you? Your description brings back the tense and busy atmosphere for me…

            • richelieu jr

              Actually being a Scilon was a bullet I actually managed to dodge (getting sued by them, unfortunately, was not, but hat turned out OK)… I sure appreciate the compliment if I captured that for you, because having spoken to so many of you I feel sometimes as if were actually there…
              You know, I read Marty’s famous post where he kind of makes vague accusations pointed at Tony and out little group, without really saying what and whom he is talking about..

        • richelieu jr

          Actually being a Scilon was a bullet I actually managed to dodge (getting sued by them, unfortunately, was not, but hat turned out OK)… I sure appreciate the compliment if I captured that for you, because having spoken to so many of you I feel sometimes as if were actually there…

          You know, I read Marty’s famous post where he kind of makes vague accusations pointed at Tony and out little group, without really saying what and whom he is talking about..

          One thing he does say is that there are all these people who didn’t really suffer at the hands of the ‘Church’ (He’s know , right? ‘Cuz they were his hands people were suffering at) and who seem out of control angry and constantly mocking the church (he also in classic DM style intimates that these people weren’t ‘high enough up’ to know;. KInd of like Davey said he wasn’t really in a position of power and was ‘flattering himself’– Marty definitely had his Irony Gene replaced with the Alannis Morrissette version)

          Everyone (even some of his minions) in the comments section rightly got on him for his vague accusations and portentious implications about people unknown… I would like ot take this opportunity to say that I think I understand part of what he is talking about and that he is right, at least in my case.

          I was a typical guy, basically unaware of $cientology except that it was a weird SciFi religion that apparently sued at the drop of a hat, had Travolta’s balls in a drawer next to pictures of him and Santa’s elves (one of whom looked suspiciously like the midget from Top Gun).. I was fond of taking up the (Church’s’ defense at parties by pointing out that nay religion’s beliefs looked ridiculous held up to the unforgiving light of day and taken out of context…

          I did lightly josh (the word may even be too strong) the $ciloons in a brief comedy sketch on cable TV in the alte 80’s and an ad I made for insurance or something where someone was answering questions holding cans. The lawsuits for huge sums arrived amazingly quickly? Who had talked? Who had cared? Who cared now? They were killing a housefly with a bazooka. The network refused to cave and the first lawsuit evaporated like David Miscavige’s claims to be the real director of Battlefield Earth when the reviews rolled in.

          The second threat got the agency to cave. I got paid, but I was slightly irritated and very curious now. Why were these people so touchy? What did they have to hide. You see L Ron’s magic recipe and Miscavige/Rathbun and Rinder’s heavy handed bullshit had made them an enemy.
          I didn’t d-suffer a their hands, really? Certainly not a whit compared to 99% of people on this list, some of whom I am absolutely amazed by the courage and resilience of…

          I hear your stories,and laugh at your jokes and I am amazed how people who lost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, dreams, family, decades of your lives can be so very forgiving and seemingly not embittered. Whereas MArty s right: I start hearing your stories reading more books, listening about children being audited, or women being forced to have abortions, or confused people trying to leave a cult being reindoctrinated because Mr Marty Rathbun, admitted criminal, perjurer, flag waver for a dead con-man and apparent m.d. thinks he knows what’ best for them because he read a book and yes, to quote wise sage Tommy “These $1000 suits are uniforms” Davis, “I am angry now!” I do get very, very angry. And I despair for humanity. And I want to do something about it.

          People are waking up, Marty. I am waking up. You idiots woke Anonymous up. Expect them, although they didn’t really get hurt, so where’s there beef, huh? Can’t they let you take advantages of the mentally weak and confused in peace! You know what’s best, right? Well, expect them, my friend. And they won’t be wearing ‘Squirrel-Busterds’ T-Shirts and being ridiculous so you can act like a martyr in the internet. I bet if you asked all of Marty’s victims if they’d prefer the Squirrel Busters treatment, or what he put them through you’d get a lot willing to make the swap.

          So yeah, I do get angry way, way out of proportion to any injustice I suffered, if I even suffered any injustices at all. And Marty os still not in jail, nor has he been tried, so I think we can say he is far from suffering in function of what he did, either. And I see no difference between Hubbard putting up a big neon sign that says ‘Tired, lonely? Come in!/ Confused? Lost? Come in!/ Scared? Alone? Come in?” and MArty sending out emails to ex-$cilons saying ‘Are you confused and having trouble reconciling your ideals with what he church has become? Come in! Worried about the loss of your money and family? Come in? Afraid you wasted you fortune, life and children’s education on BS? Come in!

          Actually, I do see a differnce: Marty claims to know better. And he definitely should.

          NB: ALL THIS PRESUMES MARTY IS ACTING IN HONEST? GOOD FAITH AND IS NOT INFACT AN ACTIVELY EVIL PERSON TRYING TO REBUILD THE ‘CHURCH’ WITH HIM IN ALL THE PAINTINGS INSTEAD OF, OR NEXT TO L RON. ARE YOU SURE HE ISN’T?

          • SciWatcher

            “One thing he does say is that there are all these people who didn’t really suffer at the hands of the ‘Church’ (He’s know , right? ‘Cuz they were his hands people were suffering at) and who seem out of control angry and constantly mocking the church ”

            Marty’s (and some of the other cultists) problem is that he doesn’t understand empathy. I’ve never been “in,” nor
            have any of my close family members and friends. But I still get angry at all
            the injustice and abuse. I’ve never been harmed by the Taliban, either, but I
            can still empathize with all those who have, and it makes me angry just thinking
            about it. It would be a sad world if people
            only got angry at or protested against injustices that effected them personally.

            • richelieu jr

              Exactly! You said it more clearly than I did, @sciwatcher:disqus, thanks!

          • Missionary Kid

            I think that Marty wants to be the Pope of Clamville.

            Unfortunately, he’s in nearly the same position of someone who wanted to take over a kit airplane company and manufacture or sell the plans to their design. Believe me , it was safe.

            This bozo was flying one of them and crashed it. In order to take control of the company, he sued. The company, undercapitalized, couldn’t fight the lawsuit very well and lost, going bankrupt. The bozo ended up with all the assets, including the plans for the plane he wanted to produce.

            He can’t produce it. Why? In the lawsuit, he declared that the design was inherently unsafe. If Mr. Bozo started to sell the plans or kits, he’d be VERY liable for anything that happened to his customers.

            Marty’s in the same position. He’s fucked, and just doesn’t know it. He can claim to be a true follower of LRH, but he simply glosses over all the contradictions that came from his old Dear Leader. He hasn’t declared LRHs tech unsafe, but he’s on a path that won’t get him far.

            I think he’ll always manage to acquire exes who’ve got too much emotional investment in LRH to admit, shamefully, that there’s a big world out there that runs a lot better without LRHs tech. With the dwindling numbers of $cions, he’s going to have fewer and fewer victims to route his way.

            • richelieu jr

              Well, I hoe you’re right, K, but you seem to be relying a lot on rational tought. Sadly, people put mot-re thought into what airline they’ll take than to what they’ll dedicate their lives to.. .One is a conscious decision, the other..going with the flow, following a girl/boy, believing what mom and dad believed, believe in the OPPOSITE of what M&D believed, finding a family, wanting to be famous/meet famous people and, (amazingly!) wanting to get rich, famous, laid, on TV..etc…

            • Missionary Kid

              The choice of where a clam leaving the Co$ is faced with several choices. Hide or join the Indies, or reject everything.

              Many, out of fear and paralysis, are in the first category. Many of those are the ones who are susceptible to being brought back. Some are just decompressing. Hopefully, they start to educate themselves about all of the lies they’ve been taught. The ones coming out now have much easier access to information – by books, and the internet, with places like xenu.net, esmb, and others.

              Some cannot give up what they’ve been taught because they have such a heavy emotional investment in something they had devoted their life to. Those are prime candidates for the Indies.

              All the decisions they make are emotional, as much as they may deny it. Once one has kicked out the traces of a part of $cientology, what is to stop them from getting rid of of it all? The first step is the big one.

              How many people are joining Mike and Marty? One problem in finding out what happens to exes is that they are so paranoid because of the distrust that Co$ has engendered in them that I’m sure it takes them a while to even look here or over at the Indies sites.

    • Gerard Plourde

      Your post points to a key reason why they’re not attracting new members. So much of their secret beliefs and practices is readily available which was not the case before the internet.

    • sugarplumfairy

      It’s called brainwashing..

      • Captain Howdy

        The problem for me with the brainwashing/mind control/coercive persuasion explanation in relation to scientology has always been that statistically Hubbards methods don’t work very well. Less then ten percent of people who tried scientology stuck around for more than 6 months. If it’s “brainwashing”, it’s not very effective based on the stats.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lots of co$ TRs is the same crap that passes for brainwashing tech in the real world.. It may not be 100% effective, thank you, Lord, but it still is effective enough on suggestible folk..

          • Zana

            What really hooked me into Scientology was how it helped me deal with the grief from my younger brother’s death. I had not been able to stop crying for about 5 years. It brought up lots of family dysfunction that killed him and that I was still struggling with. So the specific auditing was truly helpful (I was at a field group, not at an org). I’m not sure whether traditional therapy could have taken me through it as quickly and specifically…as I had already had lots of traditional therapy.

            The auditing helped me get some stability and blow off the grief. I was enthralled with the concept that there could exist a happy, stable home life as well. Hmmmm…the fact that the home life stuff doesn’t exist in Co$… well, it took me a while to see that.

            This is what hooked me into spending $75,000 to $100,000. That was worth moving through my sadness about my brother, but not worth giving up my own life for.

            There is a wee bit of truth in all the garbage that hooks us. Although, there is also “poop in the soup.”

            Thank you for this blog. And your sense of humor.

            • Missionary Kid

              The problem with “traditional therapy” is that often its effectiveness is based upon the effectiveness of the individual therapist, and many people don’t realize that their therapist may not be that good, and are reluctant to look for someone better.

            • sugarplumfairy

              We should thank you, Zana, for being here and reminding us why it’s so important to continue the fight…

            • Zana

              You guys are wonderful. I’ve been reading and reading since it started. Love your humor. Sense of fun. So SP-ish!! (stands for Super People). Fun to start sharing with you.

        • grundoon

          Few people were susceptible, but if you were susceptible, L. Ron Hubbard could deliver (at your own expense) an extraordinarily effective mindfuck. Effective enough to keep him supplied with the chemical necessities, boats, exotic animals, silk shirts, underage slave girls and boys… not the surfeit he had hoped for, but not a bad haul for a penny-a-word philosopher.

        • Proud to be an SP

          But not everyone is susceptible. It preys on the vulnerable at that time in their life, those whose ruin makes them fragile, with the promise to clear the ruin. As with Zana below, who was grieving and hooked on the early wins. And once in, it seems the mind-control claws (pardon the metaphor) hook in more and more deeply. Others have described reading or going to a lecture and realizing it was bullshit.

    • John P.

      This is the billion-dollar question. Among the chief weapons are:

      1) Pre-internet, it was pretty hard to find out the road map of where you were going to head as you went “up the bridge.” So you would only get the crazy material fed to you in little doses as you went; anyone seeing the whole OT nonsense laid out for them will never join the cult, because their critical filters haven’t been slowly corroded. The slow erosion of critical thinking is the old “boiling frog” paradox — a frog will jump out of a pot of boiling water, but if you put it in tepid water and slowly raise the temperature, it won’t feel the heat and will be cooked.

      2) Constant mandatory reinforcement that Scientology helps you. After every auditing session, you have to write up a summary of your “wins.” And if you don’t have some wins that pass muster, both you and the auditor get in trouble and you have to audit more until you can make up some positive “win.” So there’s a tight feedback loop with a heavy punitive component, and a high economic cost to not being able to pretend that Scientology helped you.

      3) High sunk cost. It’s hard to walk away once you have spent $50k on Scientology, even if you think it’s bogus. Humans have an irrational tendency to want to continue to throw good money after bad; it’s called “sunk cost bias.” We in Global Capitalism HQ see this thinking all the time in the stock market.

      4) High switch-out cost, per my comments to one of the posts above, particularly if you own a business. Probably much higher switch-out cost than any other cult due to disconnection, etc.

      5) All the usual cult stuff applies, such as redefinition of language terms, isolation from family members (Scientologists don’t talk to each other much about what they have done, it seems), etc.

      So given that they padlock the exits pretty effectively, and given the blinders to any doubt that they instill with mandatory positive “win” reports and due to sec checking if you have any doubts, the only avenue that most people can walk is straight ahead, being slowly brainwashed into a reality where Hubbard is the only expert on anything.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Yah.. That’s what I meant to say.. =)

      • Zana

        Really smart take on this. Thanks. Add to that the fact that nobody is allowed to discuss or debate any of LRH’s “facts” with ANYbody…a PC’s only choice is to believe or pay exorbitant rates for more “clubbing” (as in seals).. They are thrown into a very narrow channel and whooshed on with the stupid statistics at events led by Crazy Davey and surrounded by a crowd pretending to be True Believers in order to reinforce their own teetering belief systems. It’s almost an hysteria.

      • richelieu jr

        Just word to say that apparently frogs have been unfairly maligned here… Unlike Scientologist, IRL they will jump out of slowly heating water. Cecil tested it out at The Straight Dope years ago…

        Still a useful image though…

        • John P.

          Far be it from me to claim greater experience in boiling frogs than someone who does it as part of their national cuisine. However, we Americans are not so different in our appreciation for frogs’ legs. Consider this fine establishment, which serves exotic cuisine at county fairs in Califormia. http://www.chickencharlies.com/menu.html Sixth row down on the right. Browse some of the other stuff that will no doubt impress the editors of the Guide Michelin while you’re at it.

          • richelieu jr

            Well, I am more partial to fried and grilled frogs legs, personally, though it does sound interesting…

            I remember in US High School dissecting Frogs and it was disgusting indeed; Somehow a frog liver made it onto someone’s “Slobby Joel” and I got blamed for it. I was innocent, but they though it was me because I had taken a fetal pig we were dissecting and shoved it up the Pepsi machine. The cheerleader who reached in and got it used it as an excuse to not to return to school for a week.

            I do not understand how they were unable to understand that the genius who did the Pepsi gag wasn’t the same sort of sicko who would force someone to eat dead Frog pickeled in poisonous formaldehyde. One is an attack on nasty promotions attacking student’s health, the other is an assault on the idea of cuisine.. I suppose they figured I was trying to turn Americans into Frog-eaters.

            • DMSTCC

              Thank you. End of session. Your folders are safe with us.

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            We in RTC would like to know about your experience boiling frogs and if it can be translated to SP’s.

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        Bob and Trish Duggan are not only billionaires as a result of the Tech, but they have also opened “Bob and Trish Duggan’s OT Steakhouse.”

        They are very happy with Scientology and so you will be when you get on your Bridge to Total Freedom at your nearest Ideal Org.

        • Observer

          How can it possibly be an OT steakhouse if they don’t serve Bob’s Big Boy bleu cheese dressing?

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Bob and Trish (BT as we call them here at the Base) have been ordered to serve Bob’s Big Boy bleu cheese dressing in their OT steakhouse.

            They may not serve an altered or squirreled version.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Does the steak chew itself for you?
          Does the steak have negative calorie content?
          How is the bearnaise sauce?

          Can they postulate a nice 6 oz. filet to my house in the next ten minutes.

          Make it Oscar and have them send a nice Pinot Noir along too.
          Rare please with only a lukewarm center!
          Oh, and a cookie too. (One can never have too many cookies)

      • Lady Squash

        Very astute John P. I would like to add another point. LRH says that Scientology has to be experienced. And this is true. Once you have experienced a benefit from auditing or a course, you give LRH a pass. It no longer matters who LRH is because it “works”.

    • richelieu jr

      THAT SWINGING CAT IS A LIAR! THAT’S WHY!

      (also, that cat is a ‘SWINGER’! Do you know what that means? Look it up!)

  • Dennis Leen

    Scented fabric conditioner? It’s more “science” to check at ewg.org than with Hubbard.

    • ArthurApplebee

      That’s why it is very, very important to investigate for yourself. Perfume has toxic ingredients that affect the health of many people (without them even knowing that’s what is causing their problems). Perfume and “air fresheners”, dryer sheets, etc. are bad NOT because of some “psychiatric plot” and NOT because “Hubbard said so” but because these fragrances actually DO have toxic chemicals in them.

      Automatically rejecting something because it is associated with Hubbard or Scientology is JUST AS BAD as automatically accepting something for those reasons.

      Do your own research. ewg.org is a good place to start but there are lots of excellent resources about perfumes and fragrances.

      • Kim O’Brien

        “Automatically rejecting something because it is associated with Hubbard or Scientology is JUST AS BAD as automatically accepting something for those reasons.”

        um….no it’s not

        • ArthurApplebee

          Yeah, actually, it is. Why not investigate and find out for yourself instead of automatically allowing someone else to determine what you accept or reject.

          • Kim O’Brien

            Oh for fucks sake . Look…i do not need to read up on the history of how people make perfume to understand that some people don’t like it . Some are allergic and some just hate perfume . I for one love the smell of Old Spice but hate Drakkar . I think that LOL part of it is that Hubbard thinks it is part of some sort of ” psych ” conspiracy . Follow that logic for me …tell me ..in nice small words ..how i am not supposed to laugh my ass off at that .

            • ArthurApplebee

              Why get upset? If you can think for yourself, why pretend that you automatically reject everything attributed to Hubbard as false when, obviously, you don’t? What a silly conversation.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Maybe Kim doesn’t, but I definitely automatically reject everything attributed to Hubbard.. He was obviously mentally ill..

            • ArthurApplebee

              That’s obviously not true, but if it were, then Hubbard is in control of your thinking — just opposite. Think for yourself without any regard to what Hubbard said.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I also automatically reject everything Charles Manson says.. Oh, and Sarah Palin..

            • pronoia

              And Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

            • ArthurApplebee

              On the other hand, I think about what people like Hubbard, Palin, Beck and Limbaugh say and then reject as appropriate it because of what I’ve investigated and I’ve decided. I don’t put my thoughts on automatic under the control of what others say.

            • pronoia

              You are splitting hairs. I. An be aware (informed) about people like Hubbard and Limbaugh without wasting time studying them. For instance I read newspapers and blogs. But I won’t waste my time reading their books or listening to their radio shows!

            • ArthurApplebee

              I won’t argue with you. I certainly don’t listen to Hubbard, Palin, et. al. All I’m saying is that I don’t automatically reject thoughts based on who else happened to voice them. I refuse to give over control of my thinking in that way.

              I really doubt anyone would really disagree with that basic concept. I think people here just like to argue.

            • sugarplumfairy

              What gave us away??

            • Kim O’Brien

              not upset at all …and just so there is no confusion …i will alway reject anything Hubbard believed or said or wrote …the man was insane .

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. Great minds..

            • ArthurApplebee

              Hubbard loved dogs, so you must, automatically, hate dogs? Don’t be silly.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Dogs aren’t attributed to hub.. But kicking them probably is..

            • Kim O’Brien

              sweet jesus …how long were in ?

            • pronoia

              The experience of loving dogs did not originate with Hubbard. So your argument is immaterial. Hubbard’s actions alone are enough to deter me from any interest in his ideas. The visibly negative impact of his ideas on himself and others is enough to discredit it all. If there is any “good” in any of it you can be fairly certain that he did not invent or conceive of it himself.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Once it’s determined that 100% of co$’ and hubbard’s product is made for one purpose and one purpose only: to make money and to make others produce so as to make more money, then yes, it is a very wise thing indeed to automatically reject it..

            • ArthurApplebee

              I hate Scientology and I hate Hubbard, but automatically rejecting everything attributed to Hubbard or Scientology is stupid. Think for yourself — don’t do anything on automatic. You’d think I wouldn’t have to point out something so obvious.

            • automatically rejecting everything attributed to Hubbard or Scientology is stupid

              No, it’s really not. People only have a finite amount of time. When a person has proven over and over and OVER again that he’s scum, why on earth should anyone bother to give him another chance?

            • George Layton

              There is a lot out there in the world to help give some insight. Plenty of ideas to choose from. When I read about lrh putting kids in a chain locker, that pretty much tells me, yep this lunatic can pretty much be written off as a contributor to insight or dependable knowledge.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Absofrknglutely.. Why would I take a single thing he had to say seriously??

            • sugarplumfairy

              I can think for myself and automatically reject anything Scientology, or I can think the way you decide I should think.. You can’t have it both ways, Arthur..

            • ArthurApplebee

              What on earth are you smoking? I never, ever said anything but “Think for yourself”. How did you hallucinate that into “Think like I decide”?

            • Kim O’Brien

              why are you so offended that people use their critical thinking ..and come to the conclusion that Hubbard was a whack job and following a whack job is ..well..whacky ?

            • ArthurApplebee

              Hubbard was a whack job.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You know.. When you get excited you have a little vein that pops out on your forehead.. I just exteriorized for that..

            • George Layton

              Ok Fairy, I would really appreciate it if you would think for yourself, like I think you should think for your self, not like you would think for yourself. Please

            • sugarplumfairy

              Only for you, George.. Only for you..

            • Kim O’Brien

              hey …i wanna think for myself too ! don’t i ? i mean ..maybe i do …let me refer to LRH so i can learn to think for myself

            • Kim O’Brien

              Arthur ..i am thinking for myself when i decide not to read Hubbard . I really am ..i swear. I also do not read the works of Charles Manson .

            • ArthurApplebee

              I agree.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I think we may be long lost soulmates..

            • Kim O’Brien

              i just thought the same thing ! 😉

            • Captain Howdy

              LoL.. Even Manson occasionally made more sense than Hubbard ever did..which was ZERO

              http://youtu.be/qPzKhHeDoyM

            • Kim O’Brien

              been a long time since i have seen that !

            • Kim O’Brien

              psst ..i wanna see how many books Marty has sold but amazon does not tell me . any ideas where i should lok ?

            • Captain Howdy

              Amazon doesn’t give out that info. Best you can do is look at the sales ranking. “Memories of a Scientology Warrior” kindle version is #8 on the scientology books list. No whether that means a 100 or a 1000 copies, I have no idea.

            • pronoia

              There is no need for most people study Hubbard’s ideas simply because it unfortunately all too easy to see the consequenceses. It is often true that actions speak louder than words, and they certainly do in case of scientology.

            • Observer

              And if by a miracle some miniscule part of Hubbard’s drivel looks like it might actually make sense it’s easy to find out by researching elsewhere. I would never take anything Hubbard said at face value.

        • um…yes it is. Critical thinking, investigating, doing your own study or research is the whole point. Let me say that again — the WHOLE POINT. It’s the reason we are here, taking apart everything, bit by bit. The fact is, some of hubtard’s sh*t is not sh*t, but it also didn’t originate with hubtard.

          • Kim O’Brien

            facepalm

          • The only stuff in Scientology that has a particle of wisdom in it originated elsewhere. You can find it very quickly by looking at Eastern religions. So why the hell would anyone want to wade through mountains of shit to get to Hubbard’s warped version?

            • ArthurApplebee

              Yes, Hubbard stole from many other places – and some of that stuff had value. But, no, NOW you must reject it all because NOW it’s associated with Hubbard and you can no longer think about it logically.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I don’t concur with your conclusion or argument, AA. The bits of value were not only small, like digging through a mountain to come up with one microscopic gem, they were also tainted and toxic and chipped. Add to this factor the exorbitant amount of resources to extract it both in terms of time and attention, finances, stress and labor.

              Just take a moment to consider the above factors. Aren’t Those factors more logical an explanation than your deduction of A=A about Hubbard?

            • ArthurApplebee

              Huh? You assume I’ve said what I never said. Try again.

            • George Layton

              I’ll give it a try. It had value until lrh tainted it, by incorporating it into a mind control cult. But that’s just me thinking for my self.

            • What?

              That… is not what anyone is saying. You need to calm down and read the actual words people are actually writing. You’re looking at people saying 2+2=4 and accusing us of saying 2+2=sherbet.

            • ArthurApplebee

              I don’t for a minute think that anyone here meant exactly what they were saying — but they were saying that they completely and automatically reject everything Hubbard said. Therefore, if Hubbard happened to say the world was round, they would have to reject that. Obviously, that isn’t what they intended to say.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Excellent point..

        • q-bird

          i see whatcha did there Kim – and it’s funny. i got it & i giggled at your comment -.

          We are fortunate in that we know too much about ‘source’ to ever ever trust anything he said. I suspect you think for yourself right fine.

        • George Layton

          I agree Kim, the” JUST AS BAD ” in the statement makes the difference.

      • Spackle Motion

        Cat dander and cat shit are also toxic, and millions of people (myself included) have severe reactions to one or both of these. But there are treatments for that, and it doesn’t mean that millions (myself included) have to avoid cats.

        I became allergic to cats as an adult, but that doesn’t mean that I see them as evil and brought upon by the eeevil psychs. Although I do often wonder if my cat is plotting my demise while I sleep.

        • Observer

          I have been severely allergic to cats all my life, and medication is only partially effective so I do have to avoid them. I had never thought about them being an ebil psych plot, but now I’m starting to wonder …

          • Spackle Motion

            I would be really upset if I couldn’t get shots because I adore cats. Some MDs believe that immunotherapy is worthless, but it makes me able to sleep throughout the night without waking by sneezing. I would not be happy if I had severe reactions like you, although there are several days in the year when cat dander + pollens = sitting in front of an air filter all day.

            • Observer

              At one family gathering I started having an allergic reaction to apparently nothing. I remarked that if I didn’t know better I’d think there was a cat in the room (my in-laws don’t have a cat). My BIL, who was sitting next to me, said that his cats had been lying on the shirt he was wearing.He moved, and the reaction subsided.

              I don’t hate cats, but fortunately for me I’m a dog person.

            • Spackle Motion

              Having watched a lot of “My Cat from Hell” episodes, I learned that people with ailurophobia (or those that are severely allergic) often stare at the cat in the room, when they are in a house with a cat. They stare at the cat to keep an eye on the cat’s location, but staring at a cat is a sign of antagonism to a cat, which often will then approach the person staring at it to gauge whether that person is a real threat or not. This explains why cats seem to find the one person afraid or allergic to cats in a room full of people.

              So the next time you are in someone’s house that has a cat, look at it and blink slowly. The cat will usually return the blink and go on its merry way, away from you.

              They are such strange creatures.

            • Miss Davidoff

              I love blinking to cats wherever I meet them. I discovered
              this for myself when I was a child. It is a nice and easy way to
              establish rapport with any cat – at least I haven´t met a single
              cat it doesn´t work on.

              Cats perform the repeated blink when they feel relaxed and well, they are
              sitting in a relaxed position when they do it.

              As a child I simply imitated the movement of their lids, same rhythm and
              velocity. I could start the blinking and they would join in.

              A very quick and easy way to say to a cat: All is well my friend. I like you
              and its relaxation time now and we do this together.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Cats are brilliant. They all immediately despise my husband!
              They just know!

      • ArthurApplebee

        Jesus! I cannot believe that people get so upset by the concept of thinking for themselves. What’s up with all these people? Yes, Hubbard was one crazy idiot. Then why let him control what you accept or reject?

        Ignore everything that Hubbard said — not reject or accept — ignore. Then think for yourself.

        Or, go ahead and let what Hubbard said control what you reject. And be an idiot.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Is someone upset?

          • jensting

            Hubbard would understand 🙂

            • ArthurApplebee

              LOL! I don’t think Hubbard would understand “Ignore everything Hubbard said”.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I concur AA. You have to sift through the dumpster if there is something that is vital to know and understand that pertains to your own lifer after Hubbard. There’s not much in the sifter pan that comes out golden, but in issues like this fragrance thing, in Today’s world, it is valid and I have seen doctor’s office requesting no perfume, so it’s valid.

              I can’t go down the grocery aisle with the scents or laundry detergents. I gag. But during Hubbard’s time, there wasn’t this extreme abundance like it is now. He suffered from OCD, plain and simple. But yes, today, fragrances are getting toxic because there are too many of them for one thing, and regulations seem weak. I think it is the combinations that are causing so many to become allergic or get rashes or breathing problems from them.

      • Couch_Incident

        I enjoy reading James Randi’s skeptical debunking of the paranormal. I’m glad someone out there is bothering to do it (and in such an entertaining way). However, I read a review of his book Flim-Flam years ago that was very complimentary, but started out by saying that Randi debunks things that are unworthy of debunking because they are arbitrary statements. The point that stuck with me is that until I see some sort of validation or concurrence by sources that have proven trustworthy (including the empirical evidence of my own senses), why should I bother to investigate extraordinary claims that have no extraordinary proof? If you add in that such claims are made by a source like Hubbard that has repeatedly shown himself untrustworthy, isn’t it a better use of my time to simply ignore Xenu and the Marcab Confederacy, etc. until it shows up in the pages Scientific American or in Hubble’s pictures?

        • Peter

          My response to this is Lynn McTaggart’s “The Field”, a well researched book on the scientific research being done on the paranormal. Debunking things based on only Newtonian science/reality, leaves much open to debate. And a century’s old investigation into quantum theory is showing us there a an entirely different form of “reality” out there. Stuff which Randi has “debunked” has been scientifically proven using totally scientific methodology. Randi, by the way, is not scientist.

          • Kim O’Brien

            neither was Hubbard …just sayin

          • John P.

            I’m intrigued by your statement that Randi has debunked some stuff that has been proven with appropriate scientific validity. Can you provide any pointers to instances where this was the case?

            Incidentally, just because Randi is not a scientist professionally does not mean he is forbidden from using the scientific method to deal with quackery. Anyone can use the scientific method. Unlike Scientology doctrines, it’s not a secret and Science, Inc. does not charge exorbitant fees for its use.

            • jensting

              and equally to the point, Randi has first hand experience with flim-flam.

            • Peter

              Yes. McTaggart’s book spells it out in respect of Randi’s supposedly “scientific” attack on homeopathy. In the correct scientific method, in order to prove the validity or invalidity of a theory held by someone else, the procedure is to follow the theory’s original procedure EXACTLY. When Randi was called in by some science mag (I *think* it was “Science”, but am not sure) to test it, he deliberately altered the procedure, then announced that it was a fraud. The concept of homeopathy has been proven scientifically and in actual practice for over a century. It has also been under an unceasing attack by the AMA and medical community in general ever since since it truly follows the Hippocratic oath, “First, do no harm”. That last can hardly be said to apply to the current medical field.

            • John P.

              There are countless credible and scientifically valid attacks on homeopathy, which is complete and utter nonsense on the face of it. Because Randi may have changed the parameters of one demonstration of the ineffectiveness of homeopathy does not necessarily render that demonstration materially flawed. It also does not render other demonstrations of the ineffectiveness of homeopathy from Randi invalid, and he’s done quite a few. Nor does that hypothetically invalid demonstration invalidate the countless other demonstrations by others that homeopathy is quackery, and not very interesting quackery at that.

              Here’s an interesting and simple and compelling argument as to why homeopathy is nonsense: in the US, no insurance companies I know of will pay for homeopathic treatments. Insurers’ singular focus is to keep the cost of medicine down, even taking that to bizarre extremes. If homeopathy had any reasonable effectiveness, I guarantee you that every insurance company in the world would mandate homeopathic treatment for cancer and all the other conditions that homeopathy claims to cure, since it would be dramatically cheaper than chemo. They would only bring in chemo when homeopathy didn’t work.

              Your implication that the AMA somehow is conspiring against homeopathy because homeopathy threatens their livelihoods is classic conspiracy theory misdirection. The insurance lobby is far more effective than the AMA at protecting members’ interests these days: graph the growth in average physician salaries over the last ten years versus insurance company profits. Just because debunking homeopathy aligns with physicians’ economic interests does not inherently make the AMA wrong… One must take bias into account when evaluating claims scientifically, but one cannot presume that bias makes a result invalid.

              Incidentally, homeopathy does violate the Hippocratic oath: if you administer a cure that demonstrably does not work instead of one that does, you are guilty of harming a patient as a tumor grows inside them because you are delaying the onset of an effective cure, even though the homeopathic remedy does not cause toxic side effects.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Two words!
              Steve Jobs.

            • Peter

              John: I have the utmost respect for you, especially in your reporting on the legal aspects of some of these lawsuits. However, your comments re homeopathy are almost hopelessly incorrect.

              I pointed out how correct checking of someone else’s theory is properly done. If the theory said “what we did was 1, 2, 3, 4 then 5 and we arrived at this concludsion” and the people checking that theory then did 1, 2, 7, 23, then 28 and we found the theory didn’t work, that is plain evidence of deliberate fraud, in this case on the part of Randi. In scientific work, you don’t set out to disprove a theory. You actually use the exact same steps as the originator and try to PROVE it. Either you use the correct scientific method, which Randi deliberately did not do, or you do not. T

              Your example re insurance companies holds no water since homeopathy has been given such a bad rep by the AMA that insurance companies simply do not bother. And if you don’t believe that that the AMA is nothing more than a medical union – with all that implies – then I feel rather sorry for you. They tried the same thing with chiropractic and finally failed when the chiropractors sued them and won – sometime in the 90s – and they’ve had to back off attacking. Try googling for the full story of Royal Raymond Rife and find out what the AMA did to him.

              You seem to believe that anytime anyone points of skullduggery in such cases, they must have a “conspiracy theory” and are therefore crazy. Do you really believe that individuals, companies, corporations, governments, etc. don’t conspire to do illegal things? That conspiracies don’t exist? (I’ve got a bridge to sell you, my friend. )

              I’ve used homeopathy very successfully myself. I *know* whereof I speak. Just as I’ve successfully used chiropractic ever since 1964. And I’ve done extensive research on both. In the dreadful flu epidemic of 1918, the mortality rate for those treated with “standard” medicine was about 30%. Those treated with homeopathy, the mortality rate was very slightly over 1%. http://www.naturalnews.com/026148_flu_homeopathy_epidemic.html

              I could go on and on with much more data, but I doubt you’d follow up. I mentioned McTaggart’s book which is a real eye opener from a well known science writer. You haven’t read it and probably won’t. Changing fixed opinions is pretty much a hopeless task, but I did wish to reply to your incorrect information and especially your vision of Randi’s culpability in false science.

            • Lemont

              “The concept of homeopathy has been proven scientifically”
              The reason homeopathy hasn’t been proven scientifically, is because it is contrary to the rules of science. To say that water somehow retains the “essence” of a molecule that has been completely diluted away is simply inane.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Um, No!
              Just No!

          • Couch_Incident

            She’s opposed to vaccination of children, isn’t she?

            I see her book The Field has good reviews on Amazon, but I’ll probably wait for the evidence for her claims to come out after looking at a review by “The Times,” a trustworthy source, by its science correspondent:

            “Homoeopathy is not the only source of magic and miracles in which McTaggart believes. She is also keen on spiritual healing, psychic powers and other paranormal bunkum. The reasons are spelt out in The Field, a triumph of pseudoscience purporting to chart discoveries that “seemed to overthrow the current laws of biology, chemistry and physics”. The Universe, she argues, is pervaded by a field of vibrations “like the Force in Star Wars”. This connects human minds and bodies in “a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea” and explains the supernatural phenomena she accepts as real. There is no evidence for such gibberish, which rests on misconceptions about quantum mechanics. This bit of physics is so weird that the great Richard Feynman famously pronounced that nobody really understands it — but it is often invoked by believers in the paranormal. About the only thing experts agree on is that quantum effects do not support homoeopathy, extra- sensory perception or any of the other nonsense in The Field.”
            http://whale.to/a/mark_henderson1.html

            • SciWatcher

              “his bit of physics is so weird that the great Richard Feynman famously pronounced that nobody really understands it — but it is often invoked by believers in the paranormal. About the only thing experts agree on is that quantum effects do not support homoeopathy, extra- sensory perception or any of the other nonsense in The Field.”

              Tell that to Marty!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              3 random Feynman quotes …just because…..

              “I think I can safely say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics”

              “Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.”

              “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.”

              ― Richard P. Feynman

            • SciWatcher

              Those are great. I especially like the last one!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              😉

              Yep, that was the kicker!

            • Couch_Incident

              “The first principle [of science] is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.”

  • Lurker

    Outstanding Jon Atack, absolutely outstanding.

  • Bella Legosi

    My god I do love Monty Python in the morning

    Crackpot Religions LTD

    http://youtu.be/9JKvJaJKPPk

  • Imelda Marcos

    Part of me wants to say that all this analysis, trying to make any sense at all, of the anti-social thoughts and writings of Hubbard is an exercise in futility, but I guess it’s necessary to discover what is happening within YOU once you leave. I was raised Catholic, but never to this level of “cult-ness”; my dad was a very sweet guy educated by Jesuits all through high school.

    Something Jon says jumped out at me: “Hubbard’s infantile fear of perfume” – can someone expand on that? It’s already pretty clear that Hubbard was a truly disturbed, misogynist individual with a lot of violent paranoid fantasies about women. I used to know a guy who also had an infantile fear of perfume and became very angry whenever he smelled it, his wife would warn women about this, in their (ever-shrinking) social circle. He had a horrendous, hateful relationship with his mother, and he went on to severely beat and rape several women in southern Ontario many years ago. He was eventually incarcerated under Canada’s “dangerous sexual offender” law. Just sayin’. 🙁

    • jensting

      Jesse Prince on Hubbard and “scent.” http://lisatrust.freewinds.be/scientology/essays/jesse-perfume.htm

      From Bare-Faced Messiah, chapter 19, we have “He discovered that the unfortunate Hana Eltringham
      possessed a particularly acute sense of smell and employed her as a ‘sniffer
      dog’ to root out the source of the smells that plagued him. ‘Whenever he
      complained of bad smells,’ she said, ‘I would be called out of my office by a
      messenger to go to his quarters and crawl around on my hands and knees to try
      and locate where the smell was coming from. I would trace it to one corner,
      then we would rip off the wall cladding and very often find something like
      mildew.'” http://www.xenu.net/archive/books/bfm/bfm19.htm

    • q-bird

      Hubbturd was well known to be bizarrely insanely monstrously insistent upon having his clothes rinsed again & again & again so as to have no smell.

      I was recently in a VA Hospital and there were signs all over saying ‘no perfume zone’. I too am curious about this, Imelda. I am hoping others will come back to us with information & perhaps links.

      • You can find lots of helpful information by googling “phthlates in perfume”. Of course, it doesn’t end with perfume — things like dryer sheets are full of phthlates (that’s why you can smell them two blocks away).

        • q-bird

          off and running Nobs – tks.

        • Missionary Kid

          There are many documented cases, (and I know of some personally) where babies have had serious reactions to dryer sheets and fabric softeners.

      • MissCandle

        I am allergic to perfume (or some component in it); it causes severe physical effects such as burning eyes and inability to breathe. Free and clear products are my friends.

        • Observer

          Most perfumes don’t bother me, but there are some that send me into an instant and severe asthma attack. Of course, the people who wear these perfumes are almost without exception the ones who apparently just upend the bottles over their heads and let it flow.

          • MissCandle

            If you need that much, you probably should just bathe imo.

      • SciWatcher

        I don’t have a fear of perfume, but I’m severely allergic to it, and have all sorts of bad reactions to it. Thus, when people wear it anywhere in a public enclosed space, it tends to piss me off (which admittedly is a bit irrational), because I end up with a migraine headache and bad asthma. I feel the same way about people smoking or burning incense or scented candles or even around the smoke of a log fire or bbq, because I have the same sort of reaction. I can’t even walk down the detergent aisle in the supermarket.

      • Missionary Kid

        There’s a fad among particularly, male teenagers, to use AXE body wash. They seem to be convinced that it renders them irresistible to the opposite sex, just like the commercials.

        I’m about ready to tell the next deluded, hormone filled kid, “Hey, dude, that AXE shit stinks.”

      • Missionary Kid

        Tubbard’s insistence on absolutely odorless clothes was probably a control mechanism. It’s like a D.I. in boot camp insisting that whatever is done isn’t good enough and not up to standards in order to break a boot down.

        Story: Commercial cleaning products don’t have any smell to them. A female janitor, who cleaned a women’s bathroom daily was doing an excellent job, but the women who used it complained that it just wasn’t clean enough. The solution? A couple of drops of Pine Sol were added to the mop solution. Result? The women reported that the bathroom was miraculously cleaner.

        BTW, Pine Sol is an excellent cleaner, but you have to rinse thoroughly, because it leaves an oily residue that acts like a dirt magnet.

    • ArthurApplebee

      There is not evidence that Hubbard had an “infantile fear” of perfume. Yes, it appears that Hubbard found out about the toxins that exist in perfumes and banned their use, but that’s not an “infantile fear”.

      The chemicals in just about all perfumes are NOT regulated by the FDA and are, unsurprisingly, often harmful to humans. Some are known to cause cancer, some known to cause birth defects.

      Obviously, having some extreme and violent reaction to the presence of perfume is not sane, but avoiding perfume, dryer sheets and air fresheners is perfectly sane.

      • Missionary Kid

        The problem with labeling something toxic is that often it is a matter of the concentration.

        NaCl is highly toxic, yet we have it on our tables and consume it every day.

        Dihydrogen Oxide kills tens of thousands every year. You can get people to sign petitions to ban it.

        On the other hand, both chemicals are necessary for life. Without them, we die.

        C2H4-OH maims and kills millions every year. It is definitely toxic, since one of its uses is as an antiseptic. On the other hand, It brings great pleasure to billions.

        Translation: NaCl = salt. Dihydrogen Oxide = water C2H4-OH = grain alcohol, the key ingredient in wine, beer, and distilled beverages.

    • Proud to be an SP

      There are people who are sensitive to odor, which creates an allergic reaction, thus “no perfume zones.” I have met several people like that. But Hubbard is different. He was so loony about so many things — just as likely that his aversion to perfume and obsession about rinsing and re-rinsing his clothes was linked to his other neuroses, his misogyny, etc.

  • Kim O’Brien

    Scientologists have a way of sucking the compassion for them right out of you . In the end …you just kinda want to smack them

    • Observer

      When you’re looking at a Scientologist you’re not seeing the real person who belongs in that body. You’re seeing LRH refracted slightly through the lens of who that person used to be. The longer they’re in, the weaker and thinner the lens gets. It’s heartbreaking

      And that’s why I once again wish Mankind’s Greatest Friend were still here to reap the scorn, derision, fury and criminal prosecution he so richly deserves. Davey certainly deserves it too, but IMO he’s just Igor to “Dr” L. Ron Crankenstein.

      • Missionary Kid

        Igor to “Dr” L. Ron Crankenstein.” Those are two great names. They’re in my file.

      • Proud to be an SP

        I agree that we need to sympathize and have compassion for those who have been brainwashed by the cult. Whatever else may be true, no one deserves that fate. There is still a real person there, who needs help.

  • scnethics

    What a wonderful (and therapeutic) essay from Jon Atack!

  • Bob

    Jon, very well put. From someone who has been decompressing recently I have found that Tony and other bloggers have made the re-entry process much easier. Your cogent article sheds more light on the voluminous scriptures of the hub that on one hand seem so logical and on other contradict each other. Clams are encouraged to immerse themselves in thousands of hours of lectures which can create more and more confusion. I am constantly amazed that even with this exposure some of the scions I know are still capable, and in the long run, ignore Hubbards teachings and do the right thing. A testament to the nature of human beings and their ability to determine right from wrong. That being said the scions I mention are in the minority. It has taken me some time to shed the phobias perpetrated by Dr. Scrubbard.

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…that on one hand seem so logical..”

      That’s where you and I differ, Bob.. I don’t think any of his voluminous scriptures are logical..

      • Bob

        Differences are what create some very good dialogues between commenters. I think that some of Hubbards simple philosophic tools are what hook people into Clamatology. They are still useful if used judiciously. I am not trying to defend his writings. There are some things I still find useful personally. I don’t expect that others will see hi

      • Sherbet

        I think Bob means they SEEM logical when one is immersed in hubbardology.

  • Thank you, John for all you do. This article is very helpful and timely. I felt quite a bit of relief reading it. I’ve struggled to find my balance since leaving six years ago. I worked hard to get rid of the jargon, the concepts, the mindset, but I know that I’m not done. I’ve become very isolated from others and I’m uncomfortable going out. I do some volunteer work and have attempted to make friends through those situations, but it’s really difficult. I will keep reading and keep trying.
    On another issue: one of the first things I investigated when I left was the subject of perfume. Hubbard said that what was wrong with it was coal tar. So I started my search there. And yes, coal tar is very bad. I couldn’t find anything that said perfume was made from or with coal tar. Remember, Hubbard wrote his tirade about it back in the 50s. I didn’t get into the history of perfume making. What I DID learn is that today’s fragrances are made with petro-chemicals and are very toxic. I read every study I could find. The main problem is phthalates. And now there is plenty of science behind rejecting fragrances in one’s life. I don’t use anything that has fragrance — perfume, body lotion, laundry products, cleaning products — not because hubbard said anything, but because I’m interested in trying to stay healthy.
    Again, thank you, John. I’m so grateful.

    • Sherbet

      I think lrh just blabbed out some connection between coal tar and petro chemicals and toxicity and it happened to be sensible. You know, like that old chestnut about having a chimp pound away on a typewriter for years. Sooner or later, Bonzo is going to come up with a logical sentence, if not a novel. Once in a while, lrh came up with a “Well, I’ll be doggoned! That makes sense!” moment.

      • Missionary Kid

        LRH: a human regressing on his way to Bonzo.

        • Sherbet

          You got it, Kid. Pass him a banana.

    • richelieu jr

      I’ll check with a friend of mine who is a ‘nose’ for L’Oreal… I think for the longest time, perfumes were made with ambergris (I do not know the English word, sorry, but this means the vomit of the whale, pretty much) and musk from rare deers in China and Africa and a musk gland from another animal. I have never heard of the coal tar thing.

      I can totally see him going.. Coal tar is doing this, it has this terrible effect, and so stay away… from perfume!

      he couldn’t speak badly of whale vomit, of course, or no one would have bought Dianetics.

      • Missionary Kid

        “He couldn’t speak badly of whale vomit, of course, or no one would have bought Dianetics.” You’ve just degraded whale vomit.

        Ambergris is the same in English.

        • richelieu jr

          Yeah, sorry Whales and whale-vomit afficionados!

          Good to know about the word! Thanks!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    And now for a bunkerette’s commercial break, news at noon….a few very suspicious SPs were spotted in the Clearwater area today, in search of the the Downer Voter guy. No luck, just security dudes and dudettes, so they retired to Bunker’s Southern SP Society headquarters…. more entheta pictures to follow later.

    [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/a2pz11.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/2zhpkyf.jpg[/IMG]

    • Sherbet

      You women RULE!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Why yes, yes we do.

        • Sherbet

          And this woman appreciates your taking over Clearwater.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            We will be invoicing next week.

          • DeElizabethan

            For a time, we did the tourist trip. I’m starting my own tour thing, and any SP is welcome, for fun only, no charge,

    • sugarplumfairy

      I love it! Wish I were there to toast with you..

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Southwest airlines has special discounts for fairies…just sayin’

        • Espiando

          I fly Southwest a lot, and they’ve never offered any to me. Then again, how do you perform Close-Order Swanning About through a website?

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            um, wot?

            • Espiando

              Method One Word-Clear “fairy” vis-a-vis its archaic slang use, oh great enturbulator.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Tks for ‘splainin. Don’t remember swanning but then I blinked a lot when I was in, so might have missed.

            • Espiando

              As for the Close-Order Swanning About part, well, I was reluctant to have you click the ling since someone’s already posted a Python clip today, but you can never have enough Python:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1j0Pjw5ye4

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Oh my! Monty Python! Well, why didn’t you say so! Now you are speaking my language. Remember this clip, but not the fairy reference. You sometimes have to spell things out for us senior citizens.

              Most excellent reference and thank you so much for the smile!

        • DeElizabethan

          I think it’s a great idea to have a Southern SP party and could plan one, thank you. Agree with those months out for well known reasons and it’s not hurricanes.

    • q-bird

      Hoo-rah you girly-girls!!!! Long happy laughter here. 😀

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Super Power …it works!

    • John P.

      Supermodel #1 and I just got back to the penthouse apartment after she melted the pavement in a nearby 10K (where she won her age bracket as usual) and I’m just catching up on all the action here at the Bunker. She wanted me to mention that she’s pretty impressed with Dee’s weightlifting picture, to the point where she says she hopes she’s in that kind of shape when she’s Dee’s age… Way to kick ass and take names!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        You can’t fool me, JohnP. A Smart Supermodel? hahahahahahaha

        • Espiando

          There are some to be found. Jodie Kidd, for instance, is incredibly intelligent, not to mention a talented racing driver.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            But we are SP’s. It’s what we do.

            • Zana

              Yes. We are all Special People. Or Spectacular People.

        • John P.

          You met her at the big wing-ding last summer. Two graduate degrees (which is two more than I have) and oodles of compassion and heart to boot.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Okay. I’ll admit I need to lay off the dumb model jokes. And yes, we are looking over at Dee with envy too.

      • Zana

        Those are water dumbbells!! They don’t weigh anything. They cause resistance in the water. 🙂

        • DeElizabethan

          Right Zana. And I struggled long and hard to get them up there, tee, hee

    • TonyOrtega

      Love it!!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        You would have loved the conversations…going back from Parsons up to this week.

    • Observer

      Note to self: do not cross Dee. She could punch you out.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I’ll let Dee take that one!

      • Captain Howdy

        Dee’s got some guns. ooh-rah!

        • DeElizabethan

          Captain, not sure what you mean, but sounds good to me. I’m not against a bag lady having a gun or two! Hee, hee!

          • Captain Howdy

            guns is slang for muscular arms.

            • Missionary Kid

              American slang.

            • DeElizabethan

              OK, thanks Cap. Makes sense when I think about it. Being a women hadn’t heard that and thought it may be the boobs.

      • DeElizabethan

        I’s all ‘smoke and mirrors’ I did give a black eye to someone many years ago. You are wise.

    • Snippy_X

      What? No mint juleps?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        We only make those for the supermodels. Since they never eat, just one does the trick. Then we can extract all kinds of juicy intel to take back to the Bunker. Also, Big Pharma gives bonuses for that kind of thing.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Very nice!

    • aquaclara

      Love this! Hope you had a fabulous time!!

  • I hate scented laundry detergent because it makes me itch. I also hate most perfumes and colognes as I’m allergic to most of them. Polo Sport for men is the worst, and boys and men who like it seem to like bathing in the stuff.

    I wonder if LRH was allergic to perfumes, and therefore decided they were evil for everyone always and forever, and there must be some horrible mastermind behind it? It seems the kind of thing he’d believe.

    • Bob

      Not sure why but he was allergic to the most minute fragrances. I mean tiny, teeny molecules of fragrance. Ask anyone who served with him on the Appollo. Nothing was allowed on board that has fragrance.

      • John P.

        Sounds like Hubbard is one of those people with some sort of delusional fixation that his body is being polluted. That fear of being attacked by external substances sounds awfully consistent with what “Sarge” said about Hubbard’s last few years, when he was obsessed with the body thetans that he imagined infested him. It’s also like those people who think they are hyper-sensitive to electromagnetic fields, though double-blind tests suggest they have no ability to distinguish whether a sealed box contains an electromagnetic field source or is a placebo. Or the people who think they have something called “Morgellons Syndrome” (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgellons ), which is a bizarre psychosomatic affliction. It would be interesting for a qualified psychiatrist to address whether real or imagined hypersensitivity to smells is a neurosis or whether it might be organic brain dysfunction in Hubbard’s case.

        • Snippy_X

          It is a symptom of encephalitis and other brain dysfunctions. I think the big boil on his forehead had infected his brain, but that was the least of his maladies.

        • stateofcircle

          Bueler? Bueler?

          (I hope I got his alias right…)

        • Michael Leonard Tilse

          I actually think it might be related to vitamin deficiency. I was having some symptoms like that. My Dr. detected a vitamin D deficiency, (Not as a diagnosis, through blood tests), and put me on some prescription Vitamin D supplements. The ‘Morgellons’ went away shortly thereafter.

      • I can smell things other people can’t, and I get angry when someone uses a lot of perfume in a movie theatre or something, but I don’t think they’re doing it to hurt me. I just think they have no idea what they’re doing.

        • Peter

          They may well be “olfactory deficient” and simply put on enough perfume so that *they* can smell it. 🙂

      • Miss Davidoff

        Interestingly the late “Guru” Osho aka Rajneesh had developed a similar sensitivity to the weakest fragrances. He too was afraid of tiny dust particles and suffered from paranoia in general. And like Hubbard he managed to impose his hallucinations upon his followers. Sanyasins who wanted to take part in the “White Robe Meditation” were checked for bad smells before they were allowed to enter the meditaiton hall even after Oshos death. And most of the centers are still kept extremely clean and dust free. – Being an enlightened guru or the greatest being that ever lived in this universe definitely has its price…

        • Bob

          It certainly made everyone walk on eggshells. Half the problem with the ship was stepping on broken eggs. It is amazing that anything got done.

          • Missionary Kid

            The roiling of the organization around the leader was intentional. It kept everyone focused on pleasing the leader instead of doing the work efficiently.

            Dictators love to do that. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others went through periodic purges that made sure that there was no one under them who would challenge them and take over and kept everyone focused on pleasing the leader, because he could banish them at a whim.

            Tyrants love turmoil. It keeps everyone so busy that they forget that he’s an asshole with few real managerial skills.

    • Espiando

      Here’s another factor: until the early 1970s in the US, cologne for men wasn’t very fashionable (give credit where credit is due to the Old Spice and Hi Karate ads of the time). You can really say that this barrier wasn’t truly shattered until Tom Selleck’s cologne ads in the late 70s. Cologne was seen as effeminate, and we all know what Hubtard thought about effeminate men. My father, born in 1927, would use after shave, but never cologne. That was the attitude of the Greatest Generation guys. A lot of them only reluctantly started to use deodorant in the 1950s.

      I don’t use cologne all the time (and certainly not when I’m flying), but when I do, I prefer lighter scents. When I lived in Germany 20 years ago, the dominant colognes were all very musky. I actually had to go to Paris to buy something that didn’t make me smell like an elk in heat.

      • Peter

        Laughed my ass off on that last line! I’ve pretty much always enjoyed “lighter” smelling colognes and perfume on women. I had a mother in law who used what seemed like quarts of Emeraude which always gave me sneezing fits and *very* irritated nostrils for an hour or so afterwards.

        • Observer

          Ugh, Emeraude reeks. So does Chanel No. 5. They both make my eyes burn and water.

  • Roman

    Pretty poignant overview of some huge issues besetting cult members, both current and former. I grew up in it and left when I was 22 – getting myself declared. I’m 25 now and still spot the ridiculous neuroses laid in by my experiences with the Church.

    The biggest issue I’m getting over – and I have other friends who feel the same – is that my parents inundated and surrounded me with NOTHING but Scientology from day one as a child. Everyone from my chiropractor to my dentist to my teacher, all my school mates and my parents’ friends were Scientologists. So by the time I became of age and able to leave the Church, it was at the cost of losing my ENTIRE childhood essentially. In my opinion, it was one of the cruelest ploys to force on a child.

    I believe it takes a long time to recover because The Church’s investigation arms – OSA and HCO are fucking ruthless when it comes to stalking, harassing and badmouthing you to a vicious degree. It’s very disconcerting and most people, such as myself, are so shaken up already and we don’t want to add people harassing us on top of that, so we just kind of disappear in a sense for long enough to make sense of what in the hell happened with our lives.

    • Espiando

      This is a message that we have to spread to people leaving: don’t worry about OSA. Anon proved how toothless and ineffective OSA was five years ago. We have the tech to stop them in their tracks. If you need help with OSA, go to WWP (or even ESMB) and tell your story. It won’t be seen as Anon becoming your personal army and get rejected.

      We have your back. Just let us back there.

    • q-bird

      Thank you for this post Roman. It is insightful. So good & kind of you to share your story.

    • Lurkness

      Thank you for sharing. Kudos to you on your strength of character to leave and rebuild your life after such intense indoctrination. Wishing you all the best and much happiness in your pursuits.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Thanks for pouring from your heart. Growing up as a child without outside world experience in itself is a hardship when your emerge into the real world. The Kafkaesque inner sanctum of the Sea Org policies have transmuted and spread like a cancer to the outer skins of the culture. Those who survive scientology are the ones maybe not with Super Powers, but super survival instincts. Good for you.

      Scientology is like radiation mixed in with a little cyanide and leprosy…. no mere human should come in contact with it, ever, for any reason.

    • Truthiwant

      Sometimes I forget the pain that was caused to certain people involved in Scientology.

      In the end, I personally lost and wasted a small fortune but, as a public and also a slightly ‘particular’ type of Scientologist, I don’t feel the psychological and negative affects from it as do certain ex-Sea Org members.

      I do hope that you are happy now and have been able to recover.

      Thank you for your story.

    • richelieu jr

      You have courage, and balls and the ability to think for yourself in spite of all the mind control and black mail they could possible foist on someone from infancy.

      You’ll be all right, but I bet there’ snot one person on this list that you, or anyone like you couldn’t reach out to and expect as much help as we could possibly give.

      Keep doing what you’re doing… Every free thought, every independent action, every day you live as a free man is a dagger in the heart of those who tried to destroy you and who would enslave others. You have my utmost respect.

      • Miss Davidoff

        What a great, empowering post, Mr. Cardinal. Thanks a lot 🙂

    • aquaclara

      Echoing what Truthiwant and THDNE have said….what you went through was criminal. Sorry for this, and hope you are recovering well. As painful as this is, I am so glad you are here and sharing.

    • Missionary Kid

      Has there been anyone you grew up with that has also left, or is that information hidden from you?

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      I suggest people always quote Hubbard’s OSA Network Orders policy, to counter OSA attacks.

      Quote Hubbard’s ruthless self-serving vicious irreligious “church” policy, to counter OSA! Tell media to do their homework, and get THEM to study and quote Hubbard!

      It is VITAL to read, and quote Hubbard’s ruthless “church” scriptures!

      Help media and writers and academics to quote Hubbard’s valid and still existing “church” policy.

      Frank Oliver’s leaking his OSA training materials, below is the link, is priceless ammunition against Scientology’s ingrained viciousness!

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/48399838/Frank-Oliver-Full-Hat

      No one has yet studied ALL and dissected ALL of these materials, and written the dastardly history of OSA and the Guardian’s Office!

      I’ve wished for years, that Herbie Parkhouse and even Jane Kember, would get their heads on straight, and tell what they knew happened in their years of doing Hubbard’s biddings when Herbie and Jane were the top ranks of the Guardian’s Office. Or Fred Hare, or Charles Parselle, or or or…..So many ex Guardian’s Office big ex cheeses should write their memoirs!

      But anyone attacked viciously by Scientology OSA DSA people, should just quote Hubbard’s own vicious irreligious writings in the above link!

      • sister wendy

        great link! thanks!

      • DeElizabethan

        Thanks Chuck, read more of it this time and now bookmarked it. What valuable information it contains. It gives the whole picture of the training and mind control they do/get. Also what we are up against and how to manipulate. “Know your enemy”, comes to mind, as seen in their (Hubs) mind, So happy that Frank Oliver has posted this.

      • 0tessa

        Exactly, you have to speak their language to get to them.

    • Cloud

      This.

  • ze moo

    Thanks Jon, the line “it is only our compassion for others that makes us human. But compassion is not a major element of Scientology.” Tells all the tale. The first step in getting the new meat is to cut them off from people who have other ideas about life and philosophy. Once you cut out the compassion and empathy, you get the recruit to identify with the clams and the promise of those great stupor powers like finding a good parking space and sending dead ‘thetans’ to the maternity ward for new bodies.

    The first symptom of schizophrenia is not voices in your head, but odd misplaced smells.While our sense of smell is not up to dog strength, they do have an effect on us. Aroma therapy can be useful for some people. Just don’t try to cure cancer or any other medical condition with it. Avoiding the toxins and antibiotics and hormones in modern factory food is not easy, but you will do better if you avoid what you can.

  • Zana

    John Atak, you are a Hero! When I first read your book I was shocked and enthralled. I was coming out of the mire of the cult and all the hoo-hah of the amazing LRH and all he had accomplished. When I discovered the truth as you laid it out — all I can say is, Amazing. Amazing that the lie should be so stuptifyingly (that’s a word… I just made it up a la LRH) treated as sane.

    Thank you, John Atak for your courage and boldness. And same to you, Tony. !! You ARE saving souls. You saved me YEARS of wondering why the square peg didn’t fit into the round hole. And time is precious. We never know how long we’re going to be on the planet. I almost drove directly into the Santa MOnica Shooting yesterday…except for a small voice that whispered in my heart, “Let’s go to the Trader Joe’s on Olympic and Bundy instead of the one on Pico at 32nd Street.” I went to the one on Olympic and literally dodged a bullet. If not, I would have been driving directly through the shooting zone at the same time the Shooter was having his way with cars and bullets.

    Life is precious. We all have a lot to give. You save just one or a few souls who can contribute to the rest of us… and your life is that of a Giant Soul. Thank you.

    • aquaclara

      Oh, this is such a wonderful story in so many ways- for Jon’s book, impact of Tony’s work, which goes beyond basic reporting every single day, and your coming out of the hole of the cult. Yes, you were blessed and lucky yesterday, too, and you called it for what it was. It would have been easy to look back and use the Scilon expression that gives LRH credit when a parking space opens up in front of them. But you didn’t. You ARE out, and compassionate and seeing clearly.
      Love your story for all of this!

      • Zana

        I guess if I were OT I’d be telling everyone it was the $250,000 of LRH crap that saved my life. 🙂 It wasn’t. Like Parking Karma – it was a sweet gift from somewhere else.

    • richelieu jr

      What a WIN! This is proof we should abandon L Ron and worship John Atak! The miracle proves it!

      • sister wendy

        I agree- big win! Maybe no worshiping of anyone though….that never brings any good….

        • Zana

          How about loving ourselves so much that it just overflows to everyone else. Perhaps worshiping the life that flows up from us for the fun of it.

          • sister wendy

            I’m in

    • sister wendy

      a lot to give and relatively little time…..

      • Zana

        Yes. And it goes faster as we get older.

  • 1subgenius

    That picture of Jon always gives me a good feeling.
    A wonderful beaming smile.

    Hi, Jon.

  • Truthiwant

    I remember reading something about strange objects near to Saint Hill.
    Gatwick airport, which is London’s second biggest airport, is only a few miles from Saint Hill and the flight path goes almost over the Manor and the Castle.
    I remember some days going in to Saint Hill and smelling an overpowering stink of kerosene in the building obviously coming from the airplanes. This is one of the things that they have to put up with being on the direct flight path.
    I guess they are now on the flight path for flying saucers as well!

  • richelieu jr

    “After… making a deep study of fanaticism in its many forms, I have come back
    because I am concerned that Scientologists do not recover quickly
    enough. Indeed, they often don’t recover at all, and continue to live in
    a dream world.”

    This is my bottom-line problem with ‘INdependent Scientology’ and the Marty’s whole crowd. Even if they are totally sincere and only want to help (whichI doubt, but have heard good, strong arguments for from people I respect), it is still not helping people get ‘clear’ of Scientology so they can start thinking for themselves again.

    When you try and help a person quit heroin, you don’t do it by trying to get him interested in your new batch which has no side effects and won’t get you addicted, really it won’t (never mind if it is made from exactly the same original recipe and the same components!)!

    Maybe if they are clean for a while, and then want to experiment, then that’s their problem, done with a free adult with a clear mind…

    Marty’s followers are not free people with clean minds; They are recovering addicts getting over a terribly abusive relationship at best, absolute brain-washing at worst. They have to come to terms with what happened to them, with what they did whilst in the group and why.

    If a battered woman escaped from a long-term abusive relationship alive, you don’t immediately hook her up with your friend who has recently gotten his anger issues under control, and even though he won’t speak honestlya bout why he had to get them in control in the first place, he will tell you all about how great an anger-free he is…

    Even with the best of intentions (and really…) it is a recipe for near-certain disaster… Moral people don’t catch people on the rebound and profit from it…

    • Zana

      What’s the old saying, “I’ve never seen a mother f—in’ Clear.” Show me one. Show me an OT with all those amazing powers. Let’s test them. See if they really are Supermen.

    • Kim O’Brien

      “Moral people don’t catch people on the rebound and profit from it…”

      bingo….great comment

    • Truthiwant

      I like your comment, my French friend.

      Unfortunately, you are reasoning two, three or even four steps ahead of the minds of an independent Scientologist.

      Having read Jon Atack’s article, it is quite obvious that these people are still under the spell of a mind controlling cult. Yes, it is a bit like a heroin addict that has a problem kicking the habit.
      Just the language and the acronyms in Scientology are an indication to how deep in to the mind the teachings really go.

      • richelieu jr

        I’m not on about them, Truthiwant, but about MArty and the immorality of what he is doing.

        • Truthiwant

          I’m with you now. I read your later long post and understand now.

    • pronoia

      Independent scientology is to scientology what methadone is to heroin. Neither are a cure but both can bide the addict some time and keep them alive while hopefully they find the resources and necessary strength to really recover.

      • Missionary Kid

        That was my thought. The problem is that methadone can be just as addicting. In Great Britain, they found that if they declared someone a heroin addict and provided them with heroin, that eventually the user got tired of it and kicked.

        Usually, a person was on for a total of 7 years, but at least they weren’t out stealing and committing crimes to support their habit.

      • richelieu jr

        Methadone Kills, Pronoia.

        As for the rest, I totally, totally disagree.

        • pronoia

          I understand your point. I really do. But the problem with addicts and brainwashed culties is that far too many of them when faced with breaking away cold turkey or remaining tied to the cult, will “choose” the cult.

          • richelieu jr

            Both choices ARE the cult, pronoia. One is just ‘Cult Lite’, which is in its way worse, if cheaper…

    • sister wendy

      I think their main point, Herr Richelieu, is that they had wins (I’d have to include myself there as well) and they see that DM and his crew, altered and changed/mis-used so many things which they feel worked in it’s original “intent”. Keep in mind the indies (for the most part) are not dicking around and experimenting. They know the tech/references in a way that would probably exhaust most of us;) From their perspective, it helps me if I think of cake baking. Someone gave them a recipe for making a cake that they like and thinks tasted good. Then someone else changed some of the ingredients- enough to muck up the cake. Not only that, but the new person finally took the operation out of the kitchen and is trying to get people to make cakes in a stable. They are trying to get back to the kitchen, clean it and put back the recipe. For them the original recipe seems to work. That’s why I think that even if they find LRH is nuts, they will still like the original cake recipe because they’ve experimented enough and know how to make it work for them to get a result. And in this case, they will say the result is a happier effective life. It’s hard to say anything against that. If they are living happier effective lives, then what would be the difference in their beliefs and the beliefs of anyone else who is living a happy committed life?….once they get the original cake recipe;) I think the bit about being a recovered addict is touchy. Could work, but also not. You try to keep someone abused in relationships out of a partnership relationship for awhile- you don’t generally have that person break all their relationships and have them be alone completely. I agree with you- but it’s also a bit tricky…..The issue isn’t just with a “faulty” leader (and organization) it has to do with everything personal- that takes time and one solution will likely not work for everyone. My OCD self would like it, but I think each person may need something a little different. Patience for all of us is required.

      • Espiando

        The cake is a lie.

      • Missionary Kid

        Somehow, I couldn’t help but think about MacArthur Park, by Jimmy Webb. 😉

        • sister wendy

          I’d totally forgotten that song 😉

      • BuryTheNuts2

        The cake recipe was stolen by Hubbard.
        It still tastes good.
        But it was never really Hubbard’s cake.
        Although he was an excellent baker.

        • sister wendy

          hahaha!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      it is this, Exactly.

  • richelieu jr

    “… compassion is not a major element of Scientology.”

    Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a new front-runner for Understatement of the Year.

    (right up there with ‘Lafayette Ron Hubbard had a loose relationship with the truth.)

  • richelieu jr

    OK folks, it’s been a while since this has happened, but I have been thrown totally y a statement (or series).. When Mr Atack says this woman would just ‘audit off the incident.’ by ‘mocking up a n e-mater’, what does that mean?

    That she would audit the war? That she would audit herself and make it not happen/not matter/disappear/forgotten/impossible? Save the world? Leave it?

    And that she would improvise an e-mater with Campbel’s cans and a car battery, or something? And if this is the case, why ask her to do it then? It doesn’t see that hard..

    Did he mean he asked her to make an e-meter AND call off the war ahead of time?

    • George Layton

      Maybe “blow the charge” of the engram the war gave her, so she could move on without that being a problem to her?

      • stateofcircle

        I always thought you couldn’t get a thetan from blowing charge…

        • Espiando

          But you can always blow a thetan and charge it. Especially if you do it on Hollywood Boulevard.

    • grundoon

      She would imagine an e-meter and stop the war with it.

  • richelieu jr

    Well Tony, the information only ’emerged’ into their consciousness the day after they wrote their story and some one said,

    “Hey, I wonder if it had anything to do with the huge symbols they carved in the desert?”

    “What symbols?”

    “They carved these… (edit)..so Hubbard could fly back!”

    “Get out! That’s insane!”

    “I know, but true… Here, check out Tony Ortega’s blog!”

    “Wait a minute– isn’t he that cartoon Tiger that eats cereal?”

    “No, that’s Tony the tiger, this is the guy who choreographed Michael Jackson”

    “So I guess he knows about weird shit and extra-terrestrials…”

    “You know it. He choreographed his funeral and the OJ trial too.”

    • Missionary Kid

      Ah, the joys of urban legends and public misunderstanding.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    Those who unwisely lave Scientology to return to the glorious vomit of Wogville blather on and on about “recovery.”

    What they actually mean is that the incredible benefits of Scientology processing stay with them.

    People who leave Scientology find it hard to rob banks, use street drugs, lie, cheat, steal, and rape babies.

    That is because the Church ingrained in them a sense of morality and good behavior that stubbornly persists in the face of the Reactive Mind and its impulses to destroy everyone and everything.

    We in RTC emphasize the point that no former Church of Scientology members have ever been arrested for any major crimes and that proves that Scientology works and helps people even after they leave us.

    In happier news, the New Tech Delivery Building (NTDB) will be open very soon.

    We in RTC will be putting a Bob’s Big Boy restaurant inside of the NTDB that will serve delicious Big Boy burgers, fries, onion rings, real ice cream shakes, and yes the famous Bleu Cheese salad dressing.

    Flag: Come for the auditing, stay for the food:

    http://katfood.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/P1010899.JPG

    • TheLurkingHorror

      I love hamburger tech!

  • George

    Scientology is just Buddism which has been updated in the Principle of Nuclear Physics.

    • Espiando

      That’s an insult to Buddhism and nuclear physics. Hubbard knew less nuclear physics than a Pomeranian. And never, ever, ever put “Scientology” and “nuclear physics” in the same sentence when I’m around. You won’t like what you see.

      • George

        Its’ merely based to draw on 50,000 years of mathematics and nuclear physics. Look it up.

        • Espiando

          I don’t have to. I have a little piece of paper which says that I’m perfectly competent when it comes to the subject of physics (it’s called a “degree”, something that Hubtard never possessed). And the two and a half years of calculus that I took in conjunction with everything else to get that piece of paper gives me a perfectly good grasp of mathematics as well.

          So fuck off, Scilon.

        • richelieu jr

          ” Look it up.”

          Well, if you insist;. it is awfully dark in here though.. Haven’t you installed any lighting? If I were to go about my life with my head shoved completely up my ass I’d at least put in a little ‘reader’ light or one of those things so kids don’t get scared…

          Recessed lighting, anyone?

          Oh yes, here it is; “Ron Hubbard said he had a degree in Physics, and Buddha also said we come back.”

          Well, that sounds pretty authoritative, Espianado (if that IS your real name!). So much for your little piece of paper, this guy has shoved the entire Ron O’ Pedia up his ass! (Strangely, I agree with him that this is where it belongs.. Funny how everybody ends up getting along, isn’t it?)

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Just curious, George: Is your last name Orwell?

      • Captain Howdy

        How about Gobel?

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          I love that guy. larf

        • Missionary Kid

          Gobel was funnier than hell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7qzs6Md4jM at about :30 is his classic comment.

          • Sherbet

            Imagine those days of talk shows? Huge stars all sitting beside one another? Now we get some Real Housewife of God-Knows-Where and she leaves before the second guest arrives. Ego.

            • Missionary Kid

              On BBC America, Graham Norton usually has just about all of his guests on the big couch at once. The musical performers join them if they haven’t started out with them, at the end.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          God!

          • TheLurkingHorror

            I thought George burns was God.

        • richelieu jr

          George ‘Gobeur*’ is more like it!

          (* Gobeur= Sucker! in French.)

      • grundoon

        How about Commander?

    • BuryTheNuts2

      I just spit my beer George!

    • Kim O’Brien

      oh dear …i believe you just jumped the shark . Please proceed governor ……

    • 0tessa

      Huh?! From which planet are you?

    • Miss Davidoff

      George Bailey?

  • Observer

    Today’s free advice: If your life is full and complete without Googling images of lampreys, I strongly suggest you don’t do so.

    • Sidney18511

      Thanx Observer. I just HAD to google lampreys after that post and now the images are stuck in my head like a, like a..well……like a lamprey.
      Lampreys, the scientol-a-fish of the sea

      • Observer

        I’m still shuddering, and I did it almost an hour ago. I didn’t *want* to do it, but that was the most apt image I could think of for the Scientology monster.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          I think of The Scientology Monster now like I do when I look back at the monsters that friggin’ scared the hell out of me … in the 50’s.

          [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/16m9du.jpg[/IMG]

          • Observer

            Got it covered

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              You have scary skills Observer. Stop It right now, or I’ll send DeEliz over .

            • Observer

              Technically I had already stopped, since I did this one months ago. Oooo, I just used technicality tech!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              too late…she’s already launched on her mission.

              I seriously hope you have a career in this field. I can’t stop using the world seriously since the thread the other day. You are very talented is what I was trying to say and I really appreciate the effort you put into making us all smile and eww and awww

            • Captain Howdy

              It’s true. She’s a SUPERSTAR!

              http://youtu.be/Xs9eh82buls

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              As my one “other” non-Irish grandpa used to say: It’s CRaP! Crappola!

              Okay, I confess. I had an audition where I was forced to sing “Long Ago and oh so Far Away” as my lead song. It was a 2-year lucrative contract too. I had tears in my eyes at the end, not because of the lyrics, but because of, well you know, the agent who made me do it and the fact that I did it. Didn’t like the song, Carpenter, or the duo before. After, Hated it.

            • Captain Howdy
            • richelieu jr

              I once recorded a song in an amusement park with my then-fiancée for my parents..It was ‘We’ve Only Just Begun’, and as we were both pros, it should have gone fine, but we got in a heated argument during the recording and it’s all attempted singing, corrections arguments and dressing each other down and ends in total anarchy… Uncomfortable listening, but without a doubt the greatest piece of art I have ever created. My mother heard it and it made her cry She threw it out and I fished it out of the trash…

            • Missionary Kid

              Did you marry her?

              If you did, how long did it last?

            • richelieu jr

              Nope, but we were together for seven great years and then about a bad month. Really, really great girl, but that was not our best moment as a couple!

            • Missionary Kid

              I was thinking it was a possible indication of things to come in the relationship.

            • richelieu jr

              Strangely, not, or maybe at very long-term. It was probably more of an inadvertently accurate portrait of our relationship at that time…

            • Observer

              Thanks!

              Alas, I work in the insurance industry. The shooping is just a hobby, though I do some photo restoration on the side. I’m going to have to upgrade my ancient (2003) version of Photoshop at some point.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              damn. Job economy means never having to say you’re in the wrong business. But check with your local community college for life experience credits to get you to the job of your dreams. They are also the place that has the network connections with the companies that are looking for mad skills like yours.

            • Truthiwant

              I propose an art gallery for your works. The Louvre? The Uffizi?

            • Espiando

              How about it we repurpose the Psychiatry: An Industry Of Death exhibit?

            • Miss Davidoff

              Lololololol

            • richelieu jr

              That guy again? Too scary for my blood!

          • John P.

            How oddly familiar. Liver lips and a sebaceous cyst. Got any pictures of that guy with a couple of alligator clips and a tomato?

            • Missionary Kid

              “Liver lips and a sebaceous cyst.” Sounds like a song hook, or maybe a title.

              My Hero: “Dr”L. Ron Crankenstein. Liver lips and a sebaceous cyst.

            • richelieu jr

              Trips off the tongue, doesn’t it..

            • Missionary Kid

              Sure does.

              Somebody, please write a song.

          • richelieu jr

            You know, it’s funny, I spoke of my friend who did the FX on Star Wars and he told me that he went to this film when he was a kid, but hen he saw the monster on the poster and he was too scared to go in.. I LOVE it!

    • Captain Howdy

      Beautifully done Observer. Just when I think you’ve outdone yourself, you do it again.

      Miscavige makes a perfect Igor. Is that Alfman?

      Did you know that the Romans use to use lampreys as a form of execution?

      • Observer

        Yes, it’s OT Baby Raper Detector on Legs Jenna Elfman.

        No, I didn’t know the Romans executed people by lamprey, and if the fact that I now know that keeps me awake tonight I hope you’re prepared to accept full responsibility.

        • Captain Howdy

          No problem and you’re welcome. If there’s one thing the Captain does well, it’s creeping people out.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I can attest to that! I still have to talk to people about the Karen Carpenter incident. 🙂

            • Captain Howdy

              Anything “normal” that I take a liking to immediately takes on a sinister sheen and a whole new meaning. It’s kind of like David Lynch and ‘In Dreams” .

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I want to check that out. I really do. But I am afraid. Okay, I’ll do it. You inspire me to face my fears.

          • Truthiwant

            Are yours and Observer’s avatars related? You know, it’s the eyes.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            My Mom always said one should use their strengths!!!!

        • Truthiwant

          Just written to Captain Howdy. I asked him if your avatar is related to his. There’s something about the eyes.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Meeting Bury and DeEliz today, and the subject matter of today’s thread, reading all the as usual brilliant, funny, quarky snarky commenters who also add to the potluck soup, made me think again of what it all about.

    Philosophy, cults, bullies, narcissists, sociopaths, recovery and reeducation, it is all important to discuss and share and learn from and about….around a table of family and friends.

    But then we go home, better prepared, better educated, yes, but we go home….to take the kids to the zoo, see a local artists theater play, or bake cookies, make engine co carts for the neighborhood childs center. We play catch in the backyard, and we do what we can when we can for supporting our troops, our neighbors, our communities. We try to keep up with tech for our jobs; we fix the hole in the roof, we jog, we couch potato.

    I mentioned today that narcissists and sociopaths are charmers, loud and boisterous, and they attract the intelligent and the talented and the compassionate, the engineers as well as pioneers Scientology was once set up this way. It isn’t today..today it is just the wealthy or well connected and that is why it is shrinking so fast.

    We old timers will tell you that scientology Then was not the all encompassing, life sucking bottom feeder it is today. We had a life. And most of everyone I knew and met I can say are still some of the most interesting, warm, intelligent, creative, and incredible people I have ever met. I say that as someone who had a career (outside of sci) which involved meeting thousands and travelling all the time. Of Course it’s different now in the Information Age. That might be what’s crippling it, but what is killing it is that scientologists today are nothing more than human ATM’s with no life outside of scientology. Ironically, they no longer have a clue or an interest in anything like philosophy or spirituality or humanitarian issues either.

    • Truthiwant

      Great posts.

    • sister wendy

      thank you…..

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        and thanks for joining in here with your contributions. It all adds up. I still find comments or links that are so helpful, among the nuggets of great comedy and music and stuff. That’s why I so much appreciate this place. It’s about scientology but it often is about so much more. It’s like one of those bloomin’ onions. And I think that’s why it attracts more and more to this place. I’ve yet to find anything close to what I can find here everyday.

        • Missionary Kid

          THDNE, you’re an inspiration to all of us. If somehow we’ve made your day better, I’m happy.

        • sister wendy

          Thank you very much. It is an amazing place with a variety of thoughts, people and goings on…it’s been helpful for me so far. Even if I just read along.

    • ze moo

      You just defined the difference between the full tilt kool-aid drinkers and those who studied the philosophy and teachings of clamdom. One was all encompassing dream and the other was an adjunct of real day to day life.

    • DeElizabethan

      Exceptional! and Right On!

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      Your post is very touching. Thank you.

      I feel honored to be able to read it and also your other post directed to Jon Atack.

      As a ‘never in’, your post above vividly describes the difference between scientology Then and Now, and scientologists Then and Now.

      You made it very clear to me how appealing it could of have been in its heyday. I’m not sure what the appeal is these days.

      Although friends have always said I’m too critical and/or cynical and laugh at my “newest” conspiracy theory, from your description of its early to mid year years, I suspect I could have easily become a scientologist. In fact, probably a very enthusiastic recruit (esp. during the 60’s, 70’s, and maybe very early 80’s).

      I’ve always been bothered by commenters judgmental tone (here and elsewhere) wondering how and why anyone could possibly join scientology and how someone could “stay in” for decades – all asked with a very derogatory and accusatory tone.

      Well, here’s a damn fine explanation. I hope they read your post(s). And I hope you repost this post someday.

      Good luck with the recent development with Mr. THDNE. That must be a very deep and tough row to hoe – both as a couple and individually (but for different reasons). Relationships are so difficult but so very precious, even sacred.

      I apologize for this long post and its overly familiar tone. It’s just that I wanted to reread this day’s comments to catch the ones I missed and I was completely “…… ” – I don’t know what I was, words fail me – anyway my eyes welled up with empathy and I stood transfixed at this spot rereading your description of scientology THEN.

      That is pretty much how I reacted to Jon Atack’s post today. And how many more ex-scientologists are leading quiet lives of desperation? It is all so heartbreaking.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    P.S.: It’s not that it is hard to recover from scientology as much as it is hard to discover that you need psychiatry. The more you have invested in the former, the more traumatic it is to divest in the latter.

  • DMSTCC

    Regarding Saucers Over Saint Hill: Elton John has seen them too…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPm1u0-TTF0

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Jon Atack: If you’re listening, my husband just asked me where he can get your book. Mind you, he’s been “out” forever, but has not listened to anything in the forums or much about the subject these last years when I have. He just read Tony’s blog today and your comments. I am ordering your new book today and I just wanted to say thank you. I know that he has some deep seeded dynomite feelings buried going back from the late 60’s and his family. When we interviewed with Lawrence Wright I saw something change in him, but afterward he wouldn’t say much. This is some real healing stuff you got in your lexicon, Jon. I so hope more buy your book only because you helped so many and got screwed out of the simplest of profits. Some things can easily be corrected. Thank you.

    • George Layton

      All the best!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        tks

    • The Dakini

      How wonderful my dear! The first steps into healing are always the most difficult. We are human. Proud. Resentful. Fearful. The last esp. when we know that to heal means to let go.

      Yet letting go does not mean forgetting. I’ll be practicing tonglen for both of you!

      Very happy news indeed! Love and dharma, your Dakini.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        cool beans. He just downloaded. All is well.

        • sister wendy

          Kindle is so great….isn’t it?

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Love it.

        • DeElizabethan

          Good news and if he wants the first edition after that, he can read my copy.

        • aquaclara

          This is great. I hope things go well for you both! Recovery is a topic worth spending much more time on, for examples just like yours. And maybe in some ways it will help make it slightly less traumatic for others.

  • Mary_McConnell

    Excellent words from Jon Atack! Thanks, Tony, for sharing this 🙂

    I have always said that leaving scientology is a process, not a single event… Getting at the truth can be very difficult. I found reading other’s storiesand websites on the internet to be very helpful. I compiled a list of links starting in 2007 or so… to which others have since added in this sticky thread at ESMB. It is no where near complete and has not been updated in full for some time but many of the links are good and worth an ex checking out. Others are adding links to the thread, which is really helpful, too.

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21499-Internet-Resources-on-Scientology-for-newcomers&p=550308&viewfull=1#post550308

  • DeElizabethan

    Jon, I really appreciate what you write and I see your many points which I agree with also. You are doing a wonderful job of reaching out and talking to people. You are helping them understand what happened and why. Thank you for this remarkable essay. Keep up the good work. <3

  • sister wendy

    Dear Jon, Thank you very much for such a thoughtful description. I experience exactly what you are saying and it’s helpful to read. One thinks you HAVE been thinking for yourself all along- and then you realize how much adjust you are making in your mind to contain those rules….it’s really weird. Part of me still thinks I got sick because I “pulled it in” when I left….even if you know it’s bullshit, there is a tiny part that things…”hmmmmm….maybe they were right after all”. It’s crazy.

  • The Dakini

    Jon, this is the most moving post here on the bunker to date. Thank you.

  • CommunicatorIC

    In case anyone missed the comment on the last article (and this will be the first and last time I repeat it), Mark “Marty” Rathbun called Tony a “eunuch.” And perhaps also a liar by implication.
    http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/on-becoming-a-person/#comment-267711

    “martyrathbun09
    June 7, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    Read my book if you’ve got the balls to (or be a eunuch like Tony). You might learn, that contrary to repeated positive suggestion, Scientology – though it might be any number of things to any number of people – is not as you so vehemently contend, a scam.”

    Also, see the comments above Marty’s for context. Marty is clearly referring to Tony Ortega; they are discussing The Oracle’s allegation that Tony Ortega did not read Marty’s book.

    As for my take that Marty is, at the very least, implying that Tony lied when Tony said he read the book, Marty said:

    “Read my book if you’ve got the balls to (OR be a eunuch like Tony).”

    The use of the word “OR” implies that Tony did not read the book. Marty is clearly contrasting those who had and have the “balls” to read his book, and the “eunuchs,” like Tony, who did and do not. The sentence quoted immediately above is not consistent with Tony having read the book. The sentence quoted above clearly implies that Tony did NOT read the book, which would make Tony a liar.

    Maybe that is sloppy writing on Marty’s part. Maybe Marty didn’t intend to say that. But it is, in fact, what Marty said.

    • Spackle Motion

      I wish he would stop with the bullshit ad homs. I realize that eunuchs played an integral role in ancient civilizations but calling someone an eunuch is an unnecessary not to mention undeserved pejorative.

      • Miss Davidoff

        One can wish so but I don´t think this will come to pass unless he feels really safe and relaxed. And that won´t happen often for this self described “warrior”.

    • pronoia

      Really misogynist comment on Marty’s part. As though one must have gonads in order to have courage.

      As time passes, his true character — the guy who had the capacity to get his hands just as dirty as David Miscavige — is becoming more and more obvious

      • Miss Davidoff

        ZOMG! His true character AND his $cientology are showing!

      • richelieu jr

        Aren’t ovaries gonads, too?

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup.

        • 1subgenius

          Yes.

        • Miss Davidoff

          Exactly, And they are inside which is a much more intelligent way to wear them.

        • pronoia

          Good word clearing skilz! Meant testes. Which is what Marty meant

          • richelieu jr

            🙂

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Marty needs to suck it up and start taking the big pharma happy pills and get over his self

    • George Layton

      I think that poor little Oracle has adopted Marty as the benevolent father that she never had in her life growing up in the streets. I believe she would fight tooth and nail to protect him and it seems what she learned best from the cult is always attack. reading some of her comments it looks like she has really been turned inside out.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        you speak my mind. scientology “warriors and defenders” are strewn with adults of a childlike age with daddy issues.

        As to Marty, it might be relevant to point out that Hubbard avoided Any mention of genetics. Just sayin’.

      • Kim O’Brien

        poor thing…she seems to be having a conversation with herself….

        • richelieu jr

          Poor Thing? Some of my best conversations have been with myself!
          On the other hand, Hubbard should have called $cientology ‘Conversations with Myself’. That was the extent of his ‘research’…

          • Missionary Kid

            Intellectual Masturbation would be a better title.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Nix intellectual.

          • Kim O’Brien

            i talk to myself too ..i even answer myself ..i just do it in private like a normal person ..like masturbating 😉

    • So his book is not for women, then? Oh good, I wasn’t planning on reading his self-justifying twaddle anyway.

      • richelieu jr

        Strap on a pair and buy his book!

        In fact, buy two copies, in case on is destroyed by fire. Also two copies for your whole family. A donation will be accepted so a titanium version can be sealed in a gas-filled vault in a nuclear-war-proof mountain in Nevada.

    • Captain Howdy

      Marty thinks he’s a tough guy because he use to beat up Mike Rinder and the other scientology wimps. Anybody who got their ass kicked by Pee Wee Miscavige on a regular basis shouldn’t be accusing other people of being eunuchs.

    • SP ‘Onage

      It’s ludicrous to think Tony didn’t read his book. He always researches and fact checks what he writes about. Looks like black PR is rearing it’s ugly head over there. *sigh*

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        some people dream of being on an island.

        some people live on an island.

        some people are an island

        [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/e0n31u.jpg[/IMG]

        • Captain Howdy

          I dream of all the scientologists in the world living on an island.

          • SP ‘Onage

            On an island in a bubble with curtain tech. heh

          • richelieu jr

            They already do. Fantasy Island.

            Starring Ricardo Monatlban in a Donny Most wig as L Ron Hubbard.

            And David Miscavige as ‘Tattoo’…

            • BuryTheNuts2

              “And David Miscavige as ‘Tattoo’…”
              bad casting…..DM is too short

            • richelieu jr

              I actually was segment director for talk show when ‘Tattoo’ came on. He was fresh off accusations of beating his wife and eager (hell, (fevered’!) to show what a lovable little scamp he was; So he brought one of those ‘wrist-rocket’ slingshots into the show and SHOT Jolly Ranchers (a very hard candy) into the audience. One lady’s eye was badly hurt, many people had bruise and there was even some blood.
              Yup, sounds like DM to me 😉

              ‘Where’s Shelley’?
              “Here take this candy! Right in your mouths the SCOCHB!”

            • George Layton

              LOL. That will be enough of that.

            • richelieu jr

              I actually was segment director for talk show when ‘Tattoo’ came on. He was fresh off accusations of beating his wife and eager (hell, (fevered’!) to show what a lovable little scamp he was; So he brought one of those ‘wrist-rocket’ slingshots into the show and SHOT Jolly Ranchers (a very hard candy) into the audience. One lady’s eye was badly hurt, many people had bruise and there was even some blood.

              Yup, sounds like DM to me 😉

              ‘Where’s Shelley’?
              “Here take this candy! Right in your mouths the SCOCHB!”

            • Kim O’Brien

              he beat his wife ?? what did he do …chew on her ankles and smack her knees ??

              Now i am thinking about the bad bunny in the cave in Monty Python ..shit

            • sugarplumfairy

              Can’t wait ’til Observer reads this..

          • sugarplumfairy

            I hear Alcatraz is available..

        • SP ‘Onage

          Lmao!

        • elar aitch

          [waves to Marty looking out the window]

    • Observer

      And here’s the reply I posted this morning:

      Let’s follow Marty’s statement to its logical conclusion.

      Marty asserts that
      1. if you read the book you have balls, and
      2. Tony is a eunuch.

      Fact: Tony read the book.

      Therefore it follows that: Tony had balls before he read the book, or he wouldn’t have read it.

      If Tony had balls before he read the book, but no longer has them after reading the book, then, by Marty’s own logic: reading Marty’s book will make you a eunuch.

      Who has more cojones?

      1. A former upper-echelon insider taking on an evil cult while backed up by a boatload of blackmail material

      2. A never-in journalist taking on an evil cult with the oft-dismissed truth as his backup

      • SciWatcher

        Hahaha, fantastic!

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Nice Backhand ya got there!

      • richelieu jr

        Did you make it thru the Marty ‘Truthiness Filter’?That’s some pretty strong stuff for Marty ‘ButtHurt’ Miscav–erm, Rathbun…

        • Observer

          I didn’t post it at Marty’s–I responded to CIC when he or she posted on Tony’s previous entry.

    • Espiando

      Ignore it. It’s just part of Marty’s attempt to keep the Martians comfortable as he leads them through the dry, cold desert of Eastern thought on his way to some sort of chop-sockey fusion of thought. They need an enemy to keep them comfortable, since they had nothing but enemies when they were Scilons. Marty decided the enemy should be Tony and us, his “cult” (otherwise known as ARC or Cultega). Let him spout off.

      In the meantime, whenever he goes too far off the rails, we’ll just go over there, shoot off smart missiles, then retreat. His people won’t follow us here because we’re too entheta for them. Plus, they have no balls.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Are there any Martian’s left? (excluding “the oracle”)

        • Espiando

          I think there are. Les and the Lembergers are still left, even though they make money through promoting “standard tech”; they’ve got some brains in there and understand what Marty’s doing. Oracle is still blathering. Christine’s still there. That pissbag Valkov. There are a few other than that.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Valkov is a non entity for me due to his asshatness tech!

            • Espiando

              Being linked with Valkov is an insult to both asses and hats.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oooh. You are right and I apologize to both.
              (especially the asses ….as I appreciate a nice one!)
              Hats…meh!

          • Espiando

            Strange how this was the only comment that got a down arrow in this sub-thread. Kinda makes it obvious who’s doing it, doesn’t it, Oracle?

            Lick my sack, Scilon.

            • Kim O’Brien

              “Lick my sack , Scilon”

              That it pure fucking poetry …..;) LOL …that was awesome

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        now that’s funny

      • Missionary Kid

        You do some great ‘splainen.

        They do occasionally make forays here, but logic doesn’t mean much to true believers like that.

      • Miss Davidoff

        CULTEGA!

        Finally I´ve found a new spiritual home!

        Thank you, thank you, thank you Tony O. for being on the planet this time and thank you too, Espiando, for pointing out the greatness of Tonys writings to a world in desperate need of them.

    • richelieu jr

      I tried to send this in in response to a nice compliment from one of you, but it never showed up (happening to me lot recently, and not just on this list– Maybe my Mac is getting seditious!).. At any rate ti fits much better in this thread;. My apologies for the length and the abrupt intrusion into your little (highly interesting) confab:

      Actually being a Scilon was a bullet I actually managed to dodge (getting sued by them, unfortunately, was not, but hat turned out OK)… I sure appreciate the compliment if I captured that for you, because having spoken to so many of you I feel sometimes as if were actually there…

      You know, I read Marty’s famous post where he kind of makes vague accusations pointed at Tony and out little group, without really saying what and whom he is talking about..

      One thing he does say is that there are all these people who didn’t really suffer at the hands of the ‘Church’ (He’s know , right? ‘Cuz they were his hands people were suffering at) and who seem out of control angry and constantly mocking the church (he also in classic DM style intimates that these people weren’t ‘high enough up’ to know;. KInd of like Davey said he wasn’t really in a position of power and was ‘flattering himself’– Marty definitely had his Irony Gene replaced with the Alannis Morrissette version)

      Everyone (even some of his minions) in the comments section rightly got on him for his vague accusations and portentious implications about people unknown… I would like ot take this opportunity to say that I think I understand part of what he is talking about and that he is right, at least in my case.

      I was a typical guy, basically unaware of $cientology except that it was a weird SciFi religion that apparently sued at the drop of a hat, had Travolta’s balls in a drawer next to pictures of him and Santa’s elves (one of whom looked suspiciously like the midget from Top Gun).. I was fond of taking up the (Church’s’ defense at parties by pointing out that nay religion’s beliefs looked ridiculous held up to the unforgiving light of day and taken out of context…

      I did lightly josh (the word may even be too strong) the $ciloons in a brief comedy sketch on cable TV in the alte 80’s and an ad I made for insurance or something where someone was answering questions holding cans. The lawsuits for huge sums arrived amazingly quickly? Who had talked? Who had cared? Who cared now? They were killing a housefly with a bazooka. The network refused to cave and the first lawsuit evaporated like David Miscavige’s claims to be the real director of Battlefield Earth when the reviews rolled in.

      The second threat got the agency to cave. I got paid, but I was slightly irritated and very curious now. Why were these people so touchy? What did they have to hide. You see L Ron’s magic recipe and Miscavige/Rathbun and Rinder’s heavy handed bullshit had made them an enemy.
      I didn’t d-suffer a their hands, really? Certainly not a whit compared to 99% of people on this list, some of whom I am absolutely amazed by the courage and resilience of…

      I hear your stories,and laugh at your jokes and I am amazed how people who lost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, dreams, family, decades of your lives can be so very forgiving and seemingly not embittered. Whereas MArty s right: I start hearing your stories reading more books, listening about children being audited, or women being forced to have abortions, or confused people trying to leave a cult being reindoctrinated because Mr Marty Rathbun, admitted criminal, perjurer, flag waver for a dead con-man and apparent m.d. thinks he knows what’ best for them because he read a book and yes, to quote wise sage Tommy “These $1000 suits are uniforms” Davis, “I am angry now!” I do get very, very angry. And I despair for humanity. And I want to do something about it.

      People are waking up, Marty. I am waking up. You idiots woke Anonymous up. Expect them, although they didn’t really get hurt, so where’s there beef, huh? Can’t they let you take advantages of the mentally weak and confused in peace! You know what’s best, right? Well, expect them, my friend. And they won’t be wearing ‘Squirrel-Busters’ T-Shirts and being ridiculous so you can act like a martyr in the internet. I bet if you asked all of Marty’s victims if they’d prefer the Squirrel Busters treatment, or what he put them through you’d get a lot willing to make the swap.

      So yeah, I do get angry way, way out of proportion to any injustice I suffered, if I even suffered any injustices at all. And Marty os still not in jail, nor has he been tried, so I think we can say he is far from suffering in function of what he did, either. And I see no difference between Hubbard putting up a big neon sign that says ‘Tired, lonely? Come in!/ Confused? Lost? Come in!/ Scared? Alone? Come in?” and Marty sending out emails to ex-$cilons saying ‘Are you confused and having trouble reconciling your ideals with what he church has become? Come in! Worried about the loss of your money and family? Come in? Afraid you wasted you fortune, life and children’s education on BS? Come in!

      Actually, I do see a difference: Marty claims to know better. And he definitely should.

      NB: ALL THIS PRESUMES MARTY IS ACTING IN HONEST? GOOD FAITH AND IS NOT IN FACT AN ACTIVELY EVIL PERSON TRYING TO REBUILD THE ‘CHURCH’ WITH HIM IN ALL THE PAINTINGS INSTEAD OF, OR NEXT TO L RON. ARE YOU SURE HE ISN’T?

      • Proud to be an SP

        Bravo, Richelieu

      • BuryTheNuts2

        YOU ROCK!

      • Miss Davidoff

        So you lived your own version of the call to arms of Anonymous by the attempted suppression of the TC video in 2008? With a self produced video to boot? How very interesting!

        – I´m inspired by your rant. Thank you 🙂

        • richelieu jr

          Much more self-centred than ANonymous’ ting, Miss D, but thanks!

    • DeElizabethan

      Thanks CIC, I always like your posts, even if I don’t reply.

    • John P.

      Dear CommunicatorIC,

      I read your post with great interest, not because of what you said, but because of a consistent pattern I noticed that runs through your brief commenting history on this blog. You’ve been a commenter here for just over two weeks. During that time, your comments have centered entirely (with one exception) on two things: posting comments from Marty’s blog that are attacks on Tony or others here, and bringing up the news that Vance Woodward took down Scientology-related materials from his blog.

      Somehow, I doubt Tony is lying on his couch in the Underground Bunker needing comforting by several of the cats while he gulps single-malt to assuage the hurt from Marty’s relatively odd insult. After all, Tony’s review of Marty’s book, while within the bounds of journalistic propriety, was hardly kind, and Marty has not shown himself to be gracious in dealing with criticism, particularly of his books.

      Given that the focus of Marty’s blog has changed focus significantly in the last couple of months, it appears that his relevance to the community of those interested in seeing the downfall of Scientology is increasingly minimal as he focuses on spiritual discovery rather than the exposes of bad behavior by cult leader David Miscavige, such as all the Squirrel Busters nonsense and other surveillance. So it’s interesting that you would work to broadcast minor negative comments from Marty on this blog in view of his relatively diminished role. It now appears that there are few members in common between these two blog communities, so people here seem to have less interest than ever before in keeping up with Marty. So why drop so many bombs here in a short period of time to shine a light on what Marty says about people here?

      Also, in retrospect, I now wonder whether calling out Vance’s change of heart about actively publicizing his involvement in Scientology was designed to set the members of this community to wondering whether Vance was betraying his anti-Scientology stance, just as Bryan Culkin disappointed so many by his declaration supporting Scientology filed in the Luis Garcia case as part of his refund. In other words, it sounds like someone might have been trying to “Dead Agent” Vance. That issue seems to have been laid to rest by Vance’s continuing to publish analyses of the loopiness inherent in Dianetics in this forum, by the way.

      In reviewing your comment above in the context of your entire history commenting on this blog, I am now noticing what could be the telltale tracks of an OSA operative: 1) brief commenting history, particularly with no comments about non-Scientology subjects in different forums; 2) cross-postings of negative comments from other forums, which could serve to distract others from the subject at hand (a dissection of the extensive mindfk of Scientology and how to repair it being something that Int Management would hardly want people still in the cult to read; Joking & Degrading of Hubbard using his own words in Vance’s post is probably an equally sore spot); 3) emerging fully-formed as a commenter, knowledgeable about all sorts of current events in the cult and a clear understanding of relationships between various anti-Scientology communities (most newbies introduce themselves as such or comment on peripheral issues). The lack of any sense of humor in your posts stands out in a community of commenters with abundant wit and cleverness; that’s hardly probative, but deadly seriousness is worth noting.

      I may be wrong about your intent in writing the comments that you have made in your brief time here. So I would love to hear your views about other Scientology-related subjects that are of interest to people in this community. For example:

      a) Do you believe that the Xenu materials are literally true or are allegorical?

      b) Please share your thoughts on the idea that membership in the cult of Scientology is plummeting and that Ideal Orgs, including the just recently opened Portland Ideal Org, spend almost all of their time as lifeless, empty monoliths with few, if any, Scientologists actually coming in the door to practice Scientology.

      c) Finally, I would be interested in your thoughts on the most significant four or five strategic errors that David Miscavige has made in the last ten years as head of the Church of Scientology.

      Your silence rather than sharing your thoughts about these important issues regarding the future of Scientology might be telling.

      • DeElizabethan

        Very Interesting!

      • media_lush

        in other words CommunicatorIC , stop behaving like an annoying cunt!

      • Espiando

        John, if your hypothesis is correct, there’s something rather inherently pathetic about it. OSA trying to use us to go after Marty? Since nothing else they’ve done has worked, use Marty’s personal SPs on a mission to cause enturbulation around the Big SP?

        OSA, you forgot the rules of engagement. Anonymous is not your personal army. ARC is not your personal army either. Just because you don’t have a personal army anymore is not an excuse to try to go out to get one. Just stick to Louanne and the Facebook patrol. That’s pretty much the limit of your skill in Internet combat.

        Man, you guys sucked when Marty was in charge of training you. How much worse have you become in the nine years since he left? And to think that the OG instilled a fear of you guys into us when we started five years ago. We sure removed that mask of yours, and you weren’t able to pull ours off.

        Pathetic. Get your clown car asses out of here.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          We are ARC!
          Bite our ass!

          And now with that lil bit of enturbulation….it is time for bed!

          • Bella Legosi

            You gotta come over here and allow Bella the Entheata moster to bite ya!

            😉

      • George Layton

        To quote some unnamed contributor ” it appears” you might be on to something there. You really are a watcher John. Kudos.
        But it is very disturbing to me that they are so far into the belief that a), b) and (c are, for them, beyond any reality comprehendible or admissible. If that is true, it really is always worse than you think. well worse than I think.
        Oh and the kudos above, that’s kudos coming from a yapper, not a watcher.

      • Spackle Motion

        JP, CommunicatorIC has been posting on many other boards for many months. Just FYI

      • elar aitch

        CommunicatorIC regularly shares Marty’s madness at ESMB and WWP. I have appreciated this at ESMB because there I can get a hint of the lulz at Matryworld (and the Steve Hall spat etc) without actually having to monitor the garbage. These cross posts are always well marked and I just serve to keep each board informed about what is happening in Indy world.

        I guess CIC expected a bigger reaction here to Marty’s comments about Tony. Meh!

        • Espiando

          Maybe if CIC hadn’t posted it a day after Marty put it up, and it already hadn’t been noted here in yesterday’s thread, there might have been some reaction. Actually, there really wasn’t any reaction to it yesterday either. Why he/she/it/clam/OSA reposted it (and noted the fact that it was reposted), I don’t know, but it does seem like trolling for a reaction.

          John has a point.

        • George Layton

          CIC if the above was a misinterpretation of your posts, then I apologize to you for my response in reply to it.

          • Miss Davidoff

            I like this 🙂

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        Great analysis!

      • And I don’t rent cars!

        Great fishing O’ Captain of Industry! CommunicatorIC’s identitical post last night smelled fishy and provocative but it was late and I didn’t follow through in researching it further. Thank you for doing so.

        Wearing “tin foil hat” –

        This is to be expected, and with great frequency, if rumors are true that one of the upcoming issues of “Freedom” will feature Tony. I’m sure any deliberate enturbulation between both blogs could generate enough material for a secondary feature article of fascinating fiction reading. I’m sure “they” (Jim Lynch?) would take great delight in bashing both Tony and Marty in the same story. I suspect his delight might even extend to include frequent blog commentators. I suspect that if I wanted to remain anonymous on either blog, I’d be extra careful about posting any further self-identifiers – not that I’m overly paranoid or anything.

        “Tin foil hat” off and mercury dental fillings are out and in glass of water on bedside table.

        • Espiando

          I think the Exes will be cool with that. I name-fagged myself five years ago so that ChiAnon could get some press, so OSA knows who I am (and shame on you for not coming after me, cowards). And the rest of us…those issues of Freedumb will be in great demand here. We’ll probably put them in frames and take them to protests, just like the Anons who received Ava-grams back in the day did.

      • 0tessa

        What communicatorIC (IC = in charge) is doing is trying to ‘third party’ between opponents of the church: Rathbun and Ortega and his blog; Vance and this blog. This technique sets people up against each other and is based on divide and conquer. One element is spreading lies or negative information about one or the other, so that both parties get into conflict.
        Lately more OSA commenters have been trying to stir up the conversation here, but for insiders their tactics are very recognizable.
        Best is to ignore them completely.

        • Espiando

          No. The best thing to do is expose them, then J&D them into psychological oblivion, so obvious that even their OSA masters realize what a complete failure they are. It’s more fun that way. But considering what a humorless bitch you are, you may not understand that.

          • 0tessa

            Making intelligent jokes in a foreign language is not easy.
            But I do understand you though.

        • Miss Davidoff

          You realize that you are still talking Hubbard, do you?

          Third party law etc. ..

          I´ve been there, too. Sometimes it may seem that some of Hubbards made up words /idioms / concepts describe and analyze a situation just so perfectly it would be a waste of time to search for another, seemingly longer and more clumsy expression.

          I´ve found this idea to be deceptive. Trying to say s.th. with ones own words opens up new mental horizons – suddenly one can perceive different options, shades of grey,

          • 0tessa

            I totally agree with you. I have known scientology as a subject for more than 33 years now (I’m an old lady) and I think I know their nomenclature pretty well. In my own language the concept of ‘third party’ is common use. That it is not in English, was not known to me.
            Knowing their nomenclature does help me understand what they are doing: infiltrating, implanting, third party’ing and other dirty tricks. I also know how dangerous they are.

            • Miss Davidoff

              I hear ya, Otessa. Thank you for the reply 🙂

              I agree with you that its good to know the language and ways of thinking of your adversary.

              But to understand the other side on a deep level only makes sense if you have a solid, well grounded plattform to stand on on your own.

              If you´re so inclined, you may try to express concepts like “implanting”, “third partying”, even “infiltrating” with your own words, giving form to your own thoughts about a situation as you perceive it right now.

              It´s a kind of mental gymnastics and it leaves you more flexible, freer and with more options to react to circumstances in your life.

              And it helps you to get rid of the mental stiffness of cultdom.

            • 0tessa

              Don’t worry, I have that solid, well grounded platform to stand on my own. University, and so on. For me, Scientology is just a subject amongst others, e.g. religion in general. Any mental stiffness might be due to old age …

            • Miss Davidoff

              🙂

        • CommunicatorIC

          Otessa,

          First, please recognize that questioning someone’s motives for posting or writing, rather than responding to the SUBSTANCE of what they have to say, is what your typical, pathetically weak Scientologist does. It is also a recognized logical fallacy. See:
          http://linglogic.wikia.com/wiki/Attacking_the_motive

          As for Marty, when Person A writes, on the internet, in a public forum, that person B is a “eunuch,” “third partying” is not necessary or even really possible. I was not whispering in someone’s ear. I was not gossiping. I was not making shit up. I not only quoted Marty, I provided a Xenu damned link.

          As for the situation with Vance, I first learned of the withdrawal of his book from a post by someone else on WWP. I thought it was news. I still do. Thus, I posted the information here and on ESMB. I would do so again. I happen to come from an intellectual tradition where, unlike Scientology, one does not suppress information or news even if it may be unpleasant. I’ve found that Scientologists, some Independent
          Scientologists, and some former Scientologists have difficulty with the concept. Then again, such people are non-confront cowards.

          As for what I do, among other things I cross-post news between various forums. Sometimes with commentary. Sometimes not. My only criteria is whether I think the information qualifies as news. While I’ve made it my hobby to keep track of the online Independent Scientology movement, I also frequently cross-post from the Facebook
          Group Scientology Invasion of the Black Community, as well as other news. I’ve also cross-posted relevant information to Marty’s and Mike’s blogs.

          • Miss Davidoff

            I want to thank you for pursuing your hobby 🙂

            Enjoyed your input on ESMB.

      • Proud to be an SP

        So this is really weirding me out. I just finished reading about LRH racism (http://www.theimproper.com/80836/will-smiths-scientology-ties-odd-given-founders-overt-racism/#.UbQOtZWBO0s) and wondering how deeply in the muck these cultists have sunk due to the degraded being who thought up the cultish ideas (yes, I mean LRH).

        What I like about this blog, besides Tony, is the smart and funny commenters. Now it seems some bizarre OSA troll type is demonstrating just how deeply in the pit he/she has sunk. Sad. I wish they would just escape and find freedom in the real world.

      • stateofcircle

        To add to the pile, CIC has been a regular poster at ESMB snd WWP. CIC regularly posts information from other blogs, boards and sites relevant to scientology criticism, which I suspect is the reason for their alias. CIC has engaged in discussions before over at ESMB, and I am quite sure he/she is not OSA, but rather a very plugged in critic who likes to keep us all abreast of what’s going on in our little

      • CommunicatorIC

        John P.,

        a) The idea that the Xenu materials are literally true is laughable. The Xenu materials are at best a bad allegory, and a laughable one at that. It is bad enough to have a religion based on a science fiction allegory or metaphor, but it is pathetic to have a religion, such as Scientology, based on BAD science fiction.

        I’ll add that I think that the auditing of BTs is the science fiction equivalent of exorcism, and is dangerous. As demonstrated by Hubbard and others, taken seriously to the end, the auditing of BTs is a pathway to madness.

        b) I have no doubt that the membership in the cult of Scientology is plummeting and that Ideal Orgs, including the just recently opened Portland Ideal Org, spend almost all of their time as lifeless, empty monoliths with few, if any, Scientologists actually coming in the door to practice Scientology. I applaud that fact, and hope it not only continues, but that the rate of decay increases.

        c) Discussing the four or five strategic errors of David Miscavige is a difficult task only because there are so many. Off the top of my head, in no particular order, I would say: (1) the destruction of the Mission network; (2) the delivery of grades auditing up to Clear at Flag, in competition with the Class V Orgs, further harming those Orgs; (3) the Ideal Org campaign, siphoning money out of, and indeed impoverishing, the field, and doing so for no exchange, not resulting in training and auditing, and making it so public cannot afford auditing and training; (4) the numerous “Fourth Dynamic” campaigns, for the same reasons; (5) The Golden of Age of Tech, which resulted in interminably long training, people not getting through the Pro TRs Course, a decrease in auditors, and robotic auditors when auditors were made; (6) The Golden Age of Tech 2, which will effectively reverse the original Golden Age of Tech and is thus a tacit admission the original GAT was gack; (7) the Golden Age of Knowledge, which resulted in great delays in training and further expenditure of funds by the public with no resulting training or auditing, and again making it so people did not have money for training and auditing; (8) continuation of Hubbard policies where the end justifies the means (“greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”; “Kha Khan” concept) and pathetically short term planning caused by weekly stats and inevitable stat pushes.

        Reading over my response, I will add the biggest strategic error by David Miscavige — i.e., the continuation of GO policies via OSA Network Order and OSA. As Tory Magoo says, the COS manufactures its own enemies.

        Is that enough?

        As for your pathetically coercive statement — “Your silence rather than sharing your thoughts about these important issues regarding the future of Scientology might be telling” — akin to “when did you stop beating your wife” — or perhaps more accurately, “your silence will of course be taken as an admission of guilt” — please understand that I decided to respond to your post BEFORE I read that statement, and am responding DESPITE reading it. I do so to counter the ludicrous assertion that I’m OSA. The truth is I’m an OG who was criticizing Scientology when many current “Independents” were still in the “Church” of Scientology and were doing their best to persecute and destroy the PRIOR generation of Freezoners, Independents and critics.

        By the way, questioning someone’s motives for posting or writing, rather than responding to the SUBSTANCE of what they have to say, is what your typical, pathetically weak Scientologist does. It is also a recognized logical fallacy. See:
        http://linglogic.wikia.com/wiki/Attacking_the_motive

        In addition, when Person A writes, on the internet, in a public forum, that person B is a “eunuch,” “third partying” is not necessary or even really possible. I was not whispering in someone’s ear. I was not gossiping. I was not making shit up. I not only quoted Marty, I provided a Xenu damned link.

        As for the situation with Vance, I first learned of the withdrawal of his book from a post by someone else on WWP. I thought it was news. I still do. Thus, I posted the information here and on ESMB. I would do so again. I happen to come from an intellectual tradition where, unlike Scientology, one does not suppress information or news even if it may be unpleasant. I’ve found that Scientologists, some Independent Scientologists, and some former Scientologists have difficulty with the concept. Then again, such people are non-confront cowards.

        As for what I do, among other things I cross-post news between various forums. Sometimes with commentary. Sometimes not. My only criteria is whether I think the information qualifies as news. While I’ve made it my hobby to keep track of the online Independent Scientology movement, I also frequently cross-post from the Facebook Group Scientology Invasion of the Black Community, as well as other news. I’ve also cross-posted relevant information to Marty’s and Mike’s blogs.

        The funny thing is this. You accuse me of being OSA. On WWP I’ve been accused of being an Indie and/or promoting the Indies. LOL

        • 0tessa

          From your answer I conclude that you do not really know what the ‘third party law’ in Scientology means and how it is applied by OSA.
          Never mind.

          • CommunicatorIC

            From your answer I conclude that you can’t respond to the vast majority of what I posted. Your silence about the vast majority of what I posted is deafening… and telling.

    • Anonymookme

      I think I might be starting to get Marty. He thinks of himself as some sort of Shamen, a mystic intellectual on a higher plane than us mere mortals. What I think he actually is though is a stoner. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I think the dude is high 24/7

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Your recent comments have been cracking me up.

    • coonellie

      And we care what Marty says because?

    • 0tessa

      Nice try, third party, no luck here.

  • Bella Legosi

    Hey guys…….just uploaded the short short vid I took of the Idle mOrg from across the street on May 24th. I took it around 4pm. Here is the link. Let me know if it doesn’t work. When I went to upload more animal pix from Rose Fest “something didn’t click” and now I cant get them up at the moment. I will try later and link it for yall!

    http://youtu.be/j-KDroFW1j8

    • DodoTheLaser

      It works, thank you!
      Keep us updated, please!
      Nice voice, btw.

      • Bella Legosi

        Awww I am flattered, but I never have liked my voice on playback, lol ever! But I have always enjoyed talking and I don’t mind talking or performing in front of people. There is something about a voice that is recorded that sounds distorted from what you have heard. 🙂

        • DodoTheLaser

          I know, it’s weird to hear own voice outside your head.
          I don’t like mine either. Yours is pretty though, so “shut up”.
          And keep on talking and enjoying it! 🙂

          • Bella Legosi

            lol thanks…….don’t worry….I have been smacked many times for “talking too damn much” when I was a kid, and that never stopped me. You know the quiet game? Yeah, I never won that! Like I said I don’t mind being recorded, I just don’t like listening to my own voice.

  • media_lush

    Off topic but I think most of the regulars here will like it…. a Guardian piece on top journalists worst celeb interviews

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/jun/07/rhys-ifans-worst-celebrity-interviews?CMP=twt_gu

  • DodoTheLaser

    Thank you, Jon Atack.

  • dbloch7986

    This article stirred up some real, painful emotions in me. I am terrified of the level of programming that I was buried under. A lot of it I have shaken off, but I know there is so much more.

  • Peter C Hoffman

    I embraced being human. I embraced mainstream medicine, including psychiatry.

    I think that wanting to save others is a symptom that one is still in the cult mindset.

    L. Ron Hubbard wrote that “walking away from it all” and starting over would make a truly free man. That’s the opportunity we have.