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Claire Headley Gets Us Ready to Go Solo: More Prep for Scientology OT!

Going Solo: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Going Solo: “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”

Claire Headley is taking us on our journey to train as Scientologists. She and her husband Marc were Sea Org workers who escaped from Scientology’s International Base in 2005. She spent years working with Scientology’s “tech,” and was trusted to oversee the auditing of Tom Cruise. Go here to see the first part in this series.

Claire, you’ve taken us on a great journey of adventure up Scientology’s “Bridge to Total Freedom.” We’ve gone Clear, and we did our Preps before we start the Operating Thetan levels. But you tell us there’s even more we have to do before we can do those levels. We need to do some training as auditors — and learn to audit ourselves in Solo Auditing?

CLAIRE: We have to do this first because OT 1, 2, and 3 are all solo audited levels. So that means you will be delivering those levels to yourself. For which you must be trained as a solo auditor.

THE BUNKER: We’ve looked through the materials for Solo Auditing, and once it again it looks like a huge amount of repetition, with pages and pages of stuff we’ve already seen before.

CLAIRE: Yes, it is a lot of repetition of what we have already covered. As I remember, one of the first major steps on this course is what is referred to by Scientologists as the “wall of books.” Meaning you do a full study of all of the basic books, even if you’ve already studied them before.

Then you do another round on the e-meter drills, and then you do a whole new set of drills called the solo e-meter drills. In general auditing the rule is “auditor plus PC is greater than PC’s bank.” And in solo auditing this is transposed to “solo auditor (you) plus PC (you) is greater than PC’s bank.”

THE BUNKER: Let us see if we understand this: As a solo auditor, you will be able to outsmart or outmaneuver your reactive mind? Something like that?

Up_The_BridgeCLAIRE: Yes, that’s right. At least that’s the theory. So let’s describe how a session goes. You will be in an auditing room with an e-meter in front of you, and you will be connected to the e-meter with solo cans, basically two cans joined together so they can be held in one hand. And with the other hand you will be writing down all questions asked, any needle reactions and the answers given in response to the questions.

Solo auditing is non-verbal. So you will ask yourself the questions as a non-verbalized conceptual thought, and you will then look for any reaction of the needle. If you get an instant reaction of the needle, you will then take that question and “run” it until you have a floating needle.

Considering that most of the OT Levels are done solo, this is the importance of your training as a solo auditor.

THE BUNKER: We know there’s more nuttiness to come, but to us, this may be the biggest howler in Scientology, and we wonder about the people who go through this and think that they aren’t being played for a gigantic practical joke, Claire.

Think about it. You are sitting there, holding the cans of the e-meter in one hand, asking yourself questions in your mind, and writing down what the e-meter’s needle does — a machine that is reading tiny fluctuations in the galvanism of your skin, which is affected by sweat, grip, and salt. (We know Scientologists don’t understand this or choose to ignore it, and are convinced that the machine is reading the “mass” of their thoughts.) And while you’re sitting there, asking yourself questions and writing down the results, you are ringing up a bill of hundreds of dollars an hour.

There’s not even another person there to convince you that this process is actually adding up to something.

You convince yourself that you are actually discovering something, with a device that took maybe $40 in parts to make, and you are ringing up debt of thousands of dollars.

Even the most generous conception of L. Ron Hubbard has to recognize that this may be the greatest con ever practiced on humankind.

Or are we missing something, Claire?

CLAIRE: No, you are not missing anything.

At the time, I was struck by the fact that this was the ultimate in contradictions on so many levels. After all, until this point, the efficacy of auditing was premised on the fact of Hubbard’s purported discoveries about two-way communication. And yet now, the OT levels, the highest levels in the church, don’t make use of it. I mean as much as we could expound on the greatness of “Solo auditor plus PC is greater than PC’s bank” we’ve just gone off the deep end here.

At this point you have a true testament to the levels someone will go in “believing” in something. Unfortunately, I think it’s part of human nature to want to trust and believe in something so much, even when, from an outside perspective, it simply defies all logic. It shows a true dedication of wanting it to be true, and needing Scientology to be the answer to all life troubles.

In the declaration that Fresno State emeritus professor Robert Levine did in our lawsuits, he likened the mindset of a Scientologist to the psychological phenomena described as “sunk cost trap,” usually descriptive of stock market woes, wherein someone has sunk so much money and investment into something, that they then continue to pour money in as the only envisioned means of getting “out” of the trap in which they find themselves so deeply committed.

And I really think there is truth in that, or at least it’s a very good analogy in my opinion and experience. By that point, I was personally of the view that I just had to barrel through and be done with it.

THE BUNKER: Thank you, Claire. We found on a 2001 price list that the Solo Auditor course, part one, runs $5,778.

COST THIS WEEK: $5,778

COST SO FAR: $248,975

 
——————–

Scientology Goes On Tent Offensive

Tampa Bay Times reporter Charlie Frago had a fun piece last night about Scientology leader David Miscavige’s latest middle finger to the town of Clearwater, Florida.

Our readers know that Scientology is getting ready for a series of big celebrations in Clearwater and has erected a giant tent to house them. In order to make way for the tent, the church cut down a couple of healthy live oak trees without a city permit and after the fact paid a $2,000 fine. The church has also asked for no city permits for its parties, choosing instead to keep their dates private. And now, also without any advance word to the city, Miscavige has draped a huge “KSW” mural on top of the big tent, apparently in defiance of city signage laws.

KSW, of course, stands for “Keep Scientology Working,” and Claire Headley has explained to us how important that credo is in the church. KSW lies at the heart of Scientology’s indoctrination — it boils down to a loyalty oath, a promise that church members will adhere strictly to the policies of founder L. Ron Hubbard and root out any evidence of heresy.

The church told the city that the mural is actually a religious symbol, rather than just signage.

Frago writes, “If city officials determine that the Scientology mural violates city code and the church refuses to take it down, the city could withhold a certificate of occupancy for the tent, said city spokeswoman Joelle Castelli.”

In 2009, Clearwater filed a federal lawsuit against a bait shop that painted a wall with decorative fish in violation of its signage law.

But given Clearwater’s recent impersonation of a doormat when it comes to Scientology, we’d be surprised if it actually stood up to Miscavige at this point.

 
——————–

The Economist Gets It Wrong

We took some pains recently to point out that it would be a mistake to treat two European judicial findings regarding Scientology on equal footing. On October 16, France’s highest court upheld a fraud conviction of major importance — one more conviction, said a member of France’s parliament, and Scientology risks being dissolved throughout that country. The next day, October 17, the Netherlands granted tax-exempt status to Scientology’s facility in Amsterdam, which is the church’s only outpost in that country. As a result, the Amsterdam org was awarded some back taxes.

Now, the Economist has done just what we warned against, and has attempted to draw a grand conclusion from these two unrelated events. And boy, did the magazine get things wrong. Here’s the final paragraph of the brief piece

There’s an irony here, one which crops up again and again when discussing religious freedom. The French state, like the American one and perhaps a bit more fiercely, aspires to be religion-neutral. It refuses to affirm or deny the truth-claims of any religion. Yet in order to police such a regime, judges and sometimes bureaucrats have to make assessments—about the difference between a religion and a cult, for example—which require them to delve deep inside the cognitive and psychological world of a faith and its adherents. Even for a secular state, enforcing liberty of conscience can be a “religious” question.

That’s about as wrong as one could get regarding what’s actually been happening to Scientology around the world in the last five years. In fact, Scientology is facing the greatest crisis of its 60-year history precisely because judges and litigants and governments have stopped getting tangled in useless arguments about whether Scientology is a “religion” or a “cult” — a futile exercise in semantics. Instead, Scientology is increasingly in trouble because prosecutors in Belgium, for example, are taking pains to say that the church’s behavior, not its beliefs, are reprehensible. And lawyers like Ray Jeffrey and plaintiffs like Laura DeCrescenzo refuse to get entangled in arguments about what Scientology claims about the human soul and are instead suing over what it does to human beings themselves.

This has been the guiding principle for our reporting for several years — that it’s Scientology’s actions, not its beliefs, that matter — and we only hope publications like the Economist would pay greater attention.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on October 29, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

 

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  • Reality Scamz

    There Here for another round
    Troll Alert be nice just don’t overfeed them.

    • Sarah James

      Ok, is this like when I over feed my fish the whole can of food or the stray dog. The dog became family, the fish I don’t want to talk about. Do trolls bite?

      • Reality Scamz

        I don’t try to be mean I either ask them questions or I don’t talk to them. So it’s different strokes for different folks. YMMV
        No they do not bite they are lately quite ineffective.

    • kemist

      But, but, but, isn’t that the point, to feed ’em until they explode ?

  • Johnny Tank

    Alexa update for Oct. 29: *refresh for image*
    Tony: US rank #8,708 – up 237 from yesterday.
    Scientology: US rank #37,951 – down 2,367 from yesterday.

    Since I started monitoring on Oct. 14 this is the biggest spread so far; Tony is now 29,243 places ahead in US rankings. Tony is also at his highest rank today since the same date (lowest was 9,402 on Oct. 14 – increase of 694 places). Scientology is at its lowest today (highest was 31,813 on Oct. 14 – fall of 6,138 places).

    Scientology has 14,6% of it’s visitors from India today.

    • Poison Ivy

      Tony’s stats went up today because of all the Scientology trolls!

      Way to go, guys! Thanks!

      • GlibWog

        I got here late. Were the Trolls posting?

    • KJP in Portland

      Those Indian visitors again, I wager, have been hired / outsourced by CoB$. Just think how cheap labor is over there with all the ‘customer service’ centers now. It would only cost Sci pennies compared to hiring Americans / Canadians at minimum wage. I bet they’re paying for East Indian employees of some outsource company to ‘hit’ their website. There’s no other logical reason for this…

    • Snippy_X

      The Scientologists of India

      Evil cult or misunderstood religion, Scientology is slowly finding followers in India:
      http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/the-scientologists-of-india

      India already believes in reincarnation. There is a campaign there. I wouldn’t assume these are all pay-per-clicks.

  • Bella Legosi

    You know it isn’t very often you get to witness a “religion” die……..I don’t consider $cientology a religion, its a C U L T, but even then it isn’t every day that you witness a cult crash, burn, and die while being meticulously documented in damn near real time, for everyone interested to see.
    My god there better be an Anonymous presence as well as Exes when ever this monstrosity to spirituality opens, if it ever does.
    By the way……..saw the old news about the Dallas CC burning down. Makes me wonder if any surveillance of the Rathbuns were housed there or proof of Little Boots direction of their surveillance and stalking regarding the Rathbuns……..just a thought……..if I am mistaken about this plz let me know as I am a never in and really know not what potential dox would be housed

    • Poison Ivy

      Hmmmmm….there may have indeed been evidence of COB’s iron hand in ruling the Dallas CC, at least.

      • Bella Legosi

        Yeah it did come to mind when I read the Dallas blog post about it. Funny doesn’t seem to be much more on that story. Either way it is bad for the “church”. Either they burned it down or it burned down due to their own negligence, IMO.
        At least there wasn’t anyone in the Org at the time.

        This is really Mafia shit. RICO RICO RICO damn it!

        • Miss Tia

          There’s a long history of their buildings burning down, I know they didn’t own it, but I mean, how strange is that?? If a person left behind a trail of burned buildings, there’d be investigators on their ass.

    • Robert Eckert

      That building had not been owned by the Scientologists for years.

      • Bella Legosi

        I wouldn’t put it past them to have stored documents there hidden or secreted away in the walls. Remember when the Feds raided them over SnowWhite. It would be intelligent for them to have secreted away dox and keep them there, even if the building wasn’t owned by them. Think of that. If there was dox the gov or attorneys couldn’t subpoena them as the building hasn’t been owned or controlled by the “church” in years. However since it would have been secret there would be no reason to burn the building…….only IF those who knew kept quiet and they didn’t get paranoid about damning dox coming out.

        :)

        I still have a conspiratorial mind…….sorry

        • Robert Eckert

          No, that would not be intelligent at all, as they had no control over when and how the new owner would remodel or demolish, and they would have no way of getting back in to retrieve anything if ever they wanted to.

          • Bella Legosi

            They have infiltrated companies and agencies. They would be able to get back in if they wanted and if that didn’t work……..burn it down.

            • Robert Eckert

              You are completely misunderstanding the situation there. No, it was not a “company” or “agency” in the building: it was an abandoned resort, which a realtor was going to partially knock down and renovate the rest.

            • Bella Legosi

              I wasn’t saying that there was a company or agency. I was pointing out that $cilons have infiltrated various businesses and its entirely possible that they could have kept tabs on the building from the outside and if need be send in a SO member to act the part long enough to get the information they needed.

              The “church” must have learned from SnowWhite. That is why I mentioned it. I would wager good money that any dox that may incriminate Little Boots is not kept with other dox. I think there could be a stash spot for those dox until they get shredded/burned or actually referenced.

              It isn’t beyond $cientologists to bury/hide dox (L Ron did it with success). I see it a good possibility that dox that tie DM to Squirrel Busters could have been hidden within the walls of a former Org. Keeping tabs on the building isn’t out of Co$ reach. I am not saying that this is what occurred, but it is possible.

    • einsteinonthebeach

      David Miscavige ordered the Dallas CC to merge with the Dallas Org. That’s doing business in Texas!!!

  • Charlotte

    So… Nicole Kidman has given another interview where she is very gentle around the subject of TC. At least now when there’s a story mentioning TC and NK and their kids, there are many posters stepping up to point out about the evils of Co$ and disconnection and TC, instead of just me. Bunker Tech is being disseminated.

    • Seannie5

      Does she reference her 2 eldest children or does she pretend like she only has 2 little girls?

      • Charlotte

        I haven’t read the whole interview, but you know she hardly ever references them.

        • Seannie5

          V sad.

  • Jgg2012
    • Reality Scamz

      The city is standing up however the fine is only $250 per day. scientology will probably just break the law as they always do.

      • Jgg2012

        That’s a lot for an empty tent.

        • Reality Scamz

          scientology no longer teaches the so-called tech all of their funding come from isa status upgrades. The {church} coffers are estimated at $1 billion + low estimate.
          So they will just break the law it is just the way david miscavige operates.

          • Sunny Sands

            I think they may wear it as a badge of honor as proof of their “martyrdom” for the cause.

            • GlibWog

              ” By then the orgs will determine what is legal and what is not. ” Hubtard

      • DamOTclese2

        I wonder if Tom Cruise will have to write a $250 check every day or whether Miscaviage just uses Cruise’s debit card for these fines.

    • Observer

      Martyred whining commencing in 3 … 2 …1

      • ze moo

        “Mayor George Cretekos had strong words for the church Tuesday.

        “My frustration with Church of Scientology apparently increases every
        day. I hate to say that. But I just don’t understand why they think
        they’re different than any other church or institution in the city of
        Clearwater,” he said.”

        I don’t think Mayor Cretekos has dealt with the CO$ much.

        • Miss Tia

          I’m sure he got a handbook on what they’ll do to Mayor in Clearwater when he took office!

    • Pepsicat

      This how down reminds me of this classic scene:

      http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/77dc8684aa/kim-jong-il-vs-hans-blix

    • Mr. Sovereign

      “Cretekos said it’s time for the church to be a better community partner.”

      It is impossible for this to happen as LRH policies simply do not take common laws in account ….once city officials understand this, the better…….

      • DamOTclese2

        Yes, and neither does the Gambino Mafia. :) And for the same exact reasons.

    • Ruby

      Thank you, Jgg!
      Great article and responsse by the city officials.

    • Sunny Sands

      $250 per day fine, big deal. If they leave it up 3 more months that’s $22,500, chump change for the IAS.

      • Ruby

        But a lot of bad press…everyday!

      • Missionary Kid

        They can also red tag the tent, and withdraw or not grant an occupancy permit. That’s not chump change.

      • DamOTclese2

        As others have noted, every day the crooks violate the rules and gets fined $250, that’s another day that gets news outlets to cover these idiot’s rejection for wog rules.

    • Seannie5

      Mayor George Cretekos had strong words for the church Tuesday.

      “My frustration with Church of Scientology apparently increases every day. I hate to say that. But I just don’t understand why they think they’re different than any other church or institution in the city of Clearwater,”


      At least it’s something …. ? :/

      • Miss Tia

        THANK YOU Mayor Cretekos!!

        • KJP in Portland

          I love Miss Tia!

          • Miss Tia

            Aw, thanks KJP! You know the feeling is mutual! You feeling better??

    • Miss Tia

      Hip Hip HOORAY!!!! Glad the city grew a pair!!

    • KJP in Portland

      Good. Yay! Let them red-tag the tent and see what other city ordinances there are to forcibly remove the damn sign!

    • DamOTclese2

      Oh noes! Who is David going to slap for this? He can’t slap himself, after all, even though he’s the dumbass that decided to break the law.

      • joan nieman

        Maybe he can slap his bitch, Tom Cruise.

    • Aslansown

      Can anyone tell me what it says? Evidently I’ve looked at too many articles at the TBT, so I’m blocked unless I pay. I’m dying to know what they told them and the response (if any).

      • Robert Eckert

        It is officially a “sign” not a “mural” and is way too big for the sign ordinance, so it must come down, or else they must pay a $250 per day fine (which does not sound like a sufficient deterrent to me)

        • Aslansown

          $250/day???? Seriously? They’ll just laugh and pay the fine.

          I thought they said something in the earlier article that if they didn’t comply they couldn’t get an occupancy permit — or am I not remembering correctly?

          • einsteinonthebeach

            “Mayor George Cretekos had strong words for the church Tuesday.

            “My frustration with Church of Scientology apparently increases every day. I hate to say that. But I just don’t understand why they think they’re different than any other church or institution in the city of Clearwater”

            • Aslansown

              I’m glad he’s getting irritated enough to say something like that. The problem is that they DO think they’re different than any other church — they don’t have to obey rules.

              I feel bad for him b/c I think he’d like to give them stronger sanctions but there’s nothing on the books that he can use to stop them. Fines won’t work b/c they have so much money.

              I wish there was a sanction that had teeth — like that they couldn’t occupy the tent unless they followed the rules.

            • Robert Eckert

              It has certainly been suggested that occupation permits be denied. We’ll have to wait and see. Until Davey takes his thumb out of his butt and sets a date for whatever kind of event he wants to hold, the question is moot because they haven’t even applied for permission to occupy the tent. 1subgenius’s bet that no events will happen at all is starting to look better.

            • Aslansown

              That would indeed be loverly (to quote My Fair Lady).

        • Poison Ivy

          It’s a friggin advertisement for GATII (or “GAG”II, as Mike Rinder calls it)

        • joan nieman

          No it isn’t. The cult just throws money around. It is not enough of a deterrent at all.

      • einsteinonthebeach

        “By the end of business on Tuesday, city planning director Michael Delk had a clear message for the church: Take the wrap down or face daily fines up to $250.”

        • Aslansown

          Like I said below, they’ll just laugh as they write out the checks for the fines. Didn’t they rack up almost a half million dollars in fines b/c Super Power wasn’t finished?

          • einsteinonthebeach

            Yes, but the Mayor is starting to get irritated. This is good.

      • Missionary Kid

        If you put your browser in the incognito or private browsing mode, you can probably get through to see it.

        It is a HUGE sign that almost is as high as one side of the top of the tent and it says, KSW, with the S being the $cion double triangle.

        It’s a slogan, like Jesus Saves. Fuck $cientology.

        • Aslansown

          Thanks for the tip – it worked.

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Niiiiiice!

  • Seannie5

    scientology is so deathly boring, all that repetition and daft exercises…. atheism is so much more fun!

    • Charlotte

      I find religion, Christianity especially, to be the end of thinking. Why ask questions, when the answer is always ‘because God’..? Spirituality, kindness, being the change you want to see, empathy for others – none of those have to be tied to a religion.

      We’re good people in the here and now because we want to be good people, not because we want to get an Almighty reward at the end of it.

      I wish for people to own their choices, good and bad.

      • Seannie5

        very true. Ricky Gervais winds people up so much about religion on his twitter, It’s a hoot to read the reactions to his tweets. His mantra is ‘everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs, and I am entitled to think they are fucking idiots for it’

        • Charlotte

          I do not have words enough to express my love for Gervais.

          • Seannie5

            Same here. He is an arrogant git but he is an intelligent and witty one.

            • Charlotte

              David Brent is uncomfortably hilarious, and Derek is touchingly provocative.

            • GlibWog

              Good Lord what is with all the downvoting.. ?
              hahah Char now I’m laughing at my use of Good Lord.. hahahhaha…

            • Charlotte

              If it makes people feel better to downvote, then more power to them, Glibby! Better they downvote and relieve some tension than carry it with them :-)
              Personally, I dislike downvoting as I appreciate we’re all allowed a ‘voice’

            • Reality Scamz

              What do you have to gain by continuing this discussion of which so many have visceral opinions?

            • GlibWog

              Let’s get back on track you guys.. Anti scientology.. We hate the Fuckin Cult Remember?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              This brief interlude gave me a goose to go watch a little Tom Cruise Movie:
              I can never get enough of this stuff.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

            • noseinabk

              Is that a derail attempt BTN? I was just about to pipe in and start talking about politics.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Politics? In that case……….yes!

            • KJP in Portland

              Cray cray dude, that Tommy…

            • Charlotte

              I do so enjoy a 10 minute loop of Mission Impossible theme music!

            • GlibWog

              The absolute last movie I have seen of this Asshole is.. let me think..

              ( OMG I had to Hearsay the list..) Eyes Wide Shut 1999. ( PUKE)

              I have boycotted him and will continue to do so until he Leaves this Evil Cult and Tells the Truth about Tiny Boots.

            • Charlotte

              Me too. I referenced my distaste at his being in Kubrick’s last film in my last play. And I haven’t seen it.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I saw a mission impossible film, dont know which one because it was one. Would like to catch Eyes Wide Shut. You thought it was bad???

            • Guest

              I kept my eyes wide shut through most of the movie. (I fell asleep) Thank goodness it was a video and not at the movies!

            • GlibWog

              NK and TC were just soooo detached in that film. You would never believe that they were a couple. Absolutely NO chemistry between them.

              I would have liked the movie better if there was some Heat between the Actors. I got Nothin.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Ok, that film will get a pass.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              The cinematography and music score are both excellent

            • Eclipse-girl

              Both you and RE have me rethinking that decision. But I am not sure it is high on Mr E’s list.

            • Robert Eckert

              Well that was the whole point: that the couple had gotten completely alienated from each other.

            • GlibWog

              Yeah..then there is that..hahaha I forgot about that part Robert. I just could never see them together. Period.

              But you are right. MY mistake.

            • Robert Eckert

              Well, a lot of people found that watching a couple who were bored and annoyed with each other was boring and annoying. I can understand that.

            • Missionary Kid

              I haven’t seen it, but could it be that things were already cooling between them?

            • Robert Eckert

              Eyes Wide Shut was very strange and polarizing. You might love it, you might hate it.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              It’s Kubrick. Even TC couldn’t ruin a Kubrick. Plus Nicole is naked.

            • jeff

              I thought he was great in Born on the 4th of July, but I think that predates his clam entrance, as does the Outsiders which appealed to me. I also liked Rainman and his uncredited appearance in Endless Love. He also gave a good performance as the cult guy in Magnolia, which was a very good movie. But that’s it. I saw Far and Away and thought it was stupid. Jerry McGuire was so so. I watched Vanilla Sky ’cause it was on Netflix – it was trying hard to be a Memento imitation, but it was horrible. All the Scientology parallels were interesting, though.

            • GlibWog

              I wouldn’t see Born on the 4th.. Only because I am too sensitive..Rainman..Yes

              Endless Love Yes.. Jerry McQuire yes.. and that is it.. Oh I lied.. The Firm.

              That is it.. Nothing after..and I refuse.

            • Eclipse-girl

              remember that TC was recruited in the late 1980’s, after Risky Business and Top Gun.
              After he divorced Mimi roger and Married Nicole Kidman, there was a a short period or resurgence and possibly both TC and NK got to be “clear.” During most of the 1990s TC was not active in scientology and only became active after he separated from nicole

            • jeff

              I have never seen Risky Business, The Firm, Top Gun, Taps. I saw Cocktail which was beyond bad.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Yes, it was. I don’t think anyone will argue with you.

            • Charlotte

              Sorry, Reality Scamz, I have for the majority of posts been trying to politely reply, not keep anything going.
              By all means, feel free to reply again calling me out for my religious bigotry and flaming.

              Back to the topic of Co$ I go!

            • Reality Scamz

              I posted;
              {What do you have to gain by continuing this discussion of which so many have visceral opinions?}

              How is that calling you out get real.

              have fun

            • Eclipse-girl

              others replied in the mean time. Do not blame Charlotte. Do not blame. It is all fine to have open discussions and realize that most of us atheists have been labelled by militant by those who are uncomfortable with atheists, and most atheists do not have problems with religious people. We know how to peacefully coexist.

              atheists desire science to be taught as science in PUBLIC schools and
              we do not want laws /regulations passed that impose another’s beliefs onto the public.

              We also want to stop people hurting others.

            • Seannie5

              I can’t speak for the people who reacted so strongly so this is just a hunch – OSA and sciloons like to level out the playing fields by calling out other religions when scientology is taking a thrashing. It’s one of their ‘tricks’. People are very attuned to it and with good reason a lot of the time.
              I still very much agree with you :)

            • Guest

              Yep. They derail with the criticism of all religions, or pinpoint one specific type (usually Christianity as a whole and/or the Catholic faith). They actually post a lot as militant atheists, but some posts are as an atheist defender of Scientology “since it is not any worse than any other religion, blah, blah, blah…”

              On the Hollywood Reporter site, one of the C o S plants kept misspelling the word “atheist” as “athiest” and even had that as their user name. It cracked me up to no end, since they didn’t even realize how ridiculous they looked in their attempt to deceive us with their criticism of Christianity.

              Another favorite of mine was on the People Magazine site, when one poster claimed to be Catholic and compared the C o S to “going to mess and being forced to put money in a bucket” Catholics go to Mass, not “mess” and aren’t forced to give money in a “bucket”, but can put in donations if they wish into a basket. Again, major lulz with the attempt to “be” a Catholic!

              Politics is another planned derailment by the C o S. They act like an obnoxious person from a political ideology criticizing those of the opposite ideology, and just sit back to watch the fireworks go off when both sides argue with each other. (They generally plant insults to incite both sides, using different user names.)

              The plan is to have the posters consume their attention to the derailment and we have had some come here do the same. One specific poster would derail threads criticizing all religions but became very angry when Thelema was brought into discussion in relation to Hubbard. This resulted in her casting a pox curse upon Tony and Jon Attack (neither have shown symptoms, thanks to vaccinations.) 😉

              Sorry for the long post. Anyone for Apple Pie?

            • jeff

              Yes. I would love some pie-tech, of which I am a big fan as is GlibWog

          • Eclipse-girl

            He is smarter than the average comedian. On a first shot, I can only think of George Carlin who was more intelligent, and an atheist. There are probably others. Carlin was always a fave of mine.

      • Suppressive Tomato

        • Suppressive Tomato

          Oh, I’ve been down voted. How sad.

        • GlibWog

          Tomato..Hilarious…hahahha and yes so sad..

      • Guest

        Did I miss the memo that only atheists are welcome, here?

        • Charlotte

          Not at all, and I certainly didn’t imply that.

          • Seannie5

            Yeah.. I didn’t know there was a memo sent out….

          • whingeybingey

            Shouldn’t you be looking for the “Let’s diss Christianity” blog across the road?

            • Seannie5

              actually she is an equal opportunities disser – religion in general doesn’t sit well with her, and she entitled to her opinion, as are you.

            • whingeybingey

              Hey, I have NO time for Christianity, I just get annoyed when we are enjoying dissing Scientology and then people want to make it about the Catholics or the Christians or the Muslims. I’m sure there are plenty of fun places to rant about them, but the line that they are all as bad as each other BORES me no end, and is the line that the cult uses itself to justify what it does. So I am going to support that line like the cow manure that it is.

            • Charlotte

              I must have misread where I typed ‘they are all as bad as each other’. Stating that I find the answer always being the same to be an end to questioning is my personal opinion. I didn’t claim it to be ‘bad’, or ‘good’, merely an end to asking questions.

            • Seannie5

              Charlotte, I saw nothing wrong with what you posted either. If it’s because we dared to go off course and speak about something other than strictly scientology, well, screw that, because people do it ALL the time. Like you said, Christianity is what you grew up in so you can talk about it with first hand experience. You can think it’s a load of horseshit if you want :)

            • whingeybingey

              Yeah, go and post that on the quilting blog next, Charlotte. They’ll love that, too.

            • Charlotte

              I don’t even think it’s horseshit. I think there are many great lessons in there, not owned or originated by it, that I would like to see more focus on instead of the more negative ones.

              But, yes, I found that I wasn’t allowed to question anything as a child in Sunday school. And that frustrated me no end.

              Ah well, it’s a hot button topic.

            • Guest

              If you had been in my class, you would have had to endure my bible rap songs! 😉

            • Seannie5

              bible rap songs sound like fun!

            • Charlotte

              I would’ve enjoyed that! The singing was always my favourite part!

            • Seannie5

              I was in my church choir — hahahah!

            • Guest

              I once had a dad tell me that his twins sang my bible rap songs non-stop on a looooong car trip.

              He said it was like having gangsta Veggie Tale characters trapped in his car for ten hours straight. (!)

            • Charlotte

              My eldest was given a Veggie Tales CD which we played ad nauseum at home. He would sing along, but not correctly hearing all the words, well, let’s just say that for a while there my son thought he had a friend in ‘cheeses’

            • Guest

              The downvote must be from someone who has heard me sing! :)

            • Reality Scamz

              Yes it is so why not give it a rest.

            • Seannie5

              you can very easily ignore it RS. You don’t agree with it – fine, she’s not arguing with you, but basically telling her to shut up about it because you don’t like it is ridiculous.

            • Charlotte

              I’m trying mostly now to politely reply to people who have replied to me. I think that, if you read the thread, I’m hardly trying to single-handedly flame anything.
              Happy Bunkering.

            • Reality Scamz

              Wow a down vote how pathetic

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Random down votes in a religious thread… Seems familiar.

            • Reality Scamz

              Not that you could call scientology a religion by any stretch of the imagination.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Nah it’s more of the socks slowly coming in.. I’ll have to check the up votes on the original posts for a connection. Hmm

            • kemist

              We need a nice glass case for that button.

            • Charlotte

              I was ‘ah well’ing the reaction my personal opinion based on my personal experiences got me. It was not an inflammatory ‘ah well’, more a resigned one. I’ve been more than chided over my lack of a religious doctrine before and I find ‘ah well’ to be my most healthy, personal response. Ah well, we’re all different.
              I guess you can only safely post your own story on here when it’s about waking up to Co$. Fair enough. Lesson engrained. Moved on. Love and Light to all.

            • kemist

              Don’t worry this wasn’t aimed at you personally.

              I am an atheist myself, and no fan of religion. I even object to being called ‘spiritual’. I have absolutely no faith in anything that can’t be detected, repeated and put into nice little graphs. With error bars.

              The glass case is to keep from pressing a button which I also have, and which is often a nuisance in this particular battle – that is getting rid of the Co$ so that this particularly nasty form of exploitation is finally destroyed.

              Also, this is my happy face.

            • whingeybingey

              Well, is it just me who thinks “an end to thinking” is bad? Maybe you were neutral on that. And, no, you didn’t say they were all the same – Christianity was apparently much worse for this than any other religion. And while what you say may be true, I find atheists running in to muddy the waters about Scientology in just about every single comments section, bloody unhelpful when people are trying to expose the abuses in THIS cult.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              “I find atheists running in to muddy the waters about Scientology in just about every single comments section, bloody unhelpful”

              Exactly. This is why it’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion of the abuses of Scientology on Huff Po and many other active commenting sites. Rabid atheists love to use those articles to decry how Scientology is exactly the same as being a Methodist. Identical. And about how inappropriate it is to call out Scientology for it’s abuses when after all there was the Spanish Inquisition.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m an atheist, and I point that out when I reply to another atheist that takes that point of view and I tell them that their argument is the type of derail that $cientologists use to steer people away from them. I also point out the forced abortions, child labor that is really slavery, bankruptcy of its adherents, disconnection, persecution of former adherents, and all the other evils.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              I’m an atheist too, but not one that would proselytize in a setting such as this. Like you say, that’s straight from the OSA playbook.

            • Robert Eckert

              Most of those posters are not actual atheists but Scientologist plants.

            • whingeybingey

              I know. I hate that they use the faux atheist strategy – that’s why it gets up my wick when I see it. Even if the person is a genuine atheist it replicates the Scientology tactic and serves them by employing it. It’s also just irrelevant to the topic of Scientology.

            • Reality Scamz

              The Buddha, Lao-Tse among others always taught to question everything. The descendant Roman Catholic branches set guidelines and teachings which are at times useful.
              However I never found this site to be a religious site in the convential sense or I would not be here.
              I believe most of those who post here are unified in bringing down scientology. So I do not think discussing other religions that have stood for most of our known history is going to get you anywhere.

            • Charlotte

              Which is why I find religions so fascinating and would love to learn more about them.

            • Guest

              Pantheos is a good site.

            • Charlotte

              Cheers.

            • Guest

              ?? Why would someone downvote “Cheers”?

            • Charlotte

              Maybe they thought me facetious? ‘Cheers’ is one of my favourite friendly responses. Go figure.

            • Guest

              Well, I thought it was a good excuse to open up some vino! Cheers!

            • jeff

              Because Kirstie Alley was in it.

            • kemist

              Or if you like it even snarkier, with more profanity, you can try pharyngula. PZ is an unapologetic antitheist.

              But be warned that the flamewars are epic.

            • Reality Scamz

              Yes there are other sites for that so Google is your friend. This I do not believe is a general discussion forum so you are truly wasting your time. Or you are wasting other’s time. Either does not sound very fruitful.

            • Seannie5

              she’s not wasting my time :)

            • Reality Scamz

              This is a polarizing issue across the globe for 1000’s of years. So what purpose does it serve other than to derail the thread?

            • Seannie5

              I’ve seen people talk about other religions on this blog countless times, I have no idea why you have such a huge issue with Charlotte’s and my tiny little conversation (if you can even call 2 or 3 posts a conversation) which would have been over about 40 minutes ago if some hadn’t jumped on it. You are the one who is choosing to ‘derail’ it. Just because something is polarising doesn’t mean it should be silenced. Last time I checked we are adults and unless Tony has a problem with us I don’t give a hoot what you think. We are not trying to be hurtful or rude to people. How about simply disagreeing and moving on? If it was an obvious effort by OSA to derail I would understand your frustration but haven’t Charlotte and I been around for a while now?
              I didn’t think religious skepticism among regs would be such an issue on this site of all sites.

            • Reality Scamz

              Okay Mom sorry

            • Seannie5

              That’s OK!!!

            • Robert Eckert

              Were you two sent here as a team?

            • Charlotte

              You don’t ask the posters who have been objecting if they are a team, but because Seannie shares a similar viewpoint, you think we’re in cahoots? Funny that it was earlier touted that atheism was ‘the norm’ in here, yet two people labelled atheist [note, I didn’t use that word for myself. I don’t feel the need to define my lack of organised religious belief with a nod to that which I do not believe in. I don’t call myself aeasterbunnyist either. Mostly because that would be a lie. I totally believe in the easter bunny] are assumed by you to be ‘a team’.
              I’m proud to be part of a place where so many different opinions can be expressed, whether I agree or not.

            • Robert Eckert

              I ask Seannie5 if you are a team because he knows that this is an OSA tactic to disrupt (he said so), and he knows that OSA employs this tactic because it works, so his approval of it has to raise the question of whether that is precisely what he, and you, are here for.

            • Charlotte

              Funny, because except for polite and non-inflammatory responses to those who were mostly polite to me, I’m not the one who was keeping anything going. I made the mistake of believing I could post an opinion on an opinion board. I’ve read many that I don’t agree with, but that’s part of the colourful tapestry of the Bunker. And life.
              Didn’t know Seannie was a ‘he’. But I guess that’s the cunningly clever kind of response I *would* give to throw you off my Scilon scent. Damn.

              Also, I keep reading ‘opinion’ as ‘onion’. Better make dinner.

            • Robert Eckert

              An “opinion” that millions of people are thoughtless and stupid is going to be answered by people giving a lowly opinion of you. Of course you can post your opinions here, and nobody but Tony can stop you; but others can post their opinions back at you. I strongly dislike the Abrahamic religions as well, but I discuss that subject on boards where that is the topic, and even there I do not make the mistake of thinking there are no thoughtful believers. On this board, sweeping insults of that kind are rare, and suspicious, and you should know that.

            • Charlotte

              Okay, Robert, tell me what my post means. Decode it for me. I didn’t call anyone here thoughtless. You inferred that. I stated that that was what I had found. In my own experiences. In my own life. I’m okay in my knowledge of what my intentions were and are, and that you have them all over arsefaced won’t make me lose sleep. I don’t think I should reply to you any longer on this, as it seems to be futile.
              Think what ye will, Dear Robert. You most certainly are entitled to. :-)

            • Robert Eckert

              “I find religion, Christianity especially, to be the end of thinking.” means that anyone who subscribes to any religion, but especially Christianity, no longer engages in thinking. If that isn’t what you meant to say, then you should be apologetic. Don’t try to play as if it was not a profoundly insulting thing to say.

            • Charlotte

              It means I’ve lived a life, had experiences, and those are some thoughts from those experiences. I hope nobody is as seriously threatened by little ol’ me having my own voice, as would seem to be implied. We’re all allowed a voice, and enough have felt safe enough to personally express their unimpressedness with me. It’s all good. It’s all magic. We all have a voice.

              And we all want Miscavige to stop ruining lives.

              Honestly, I love the Bunker.

            • Seannie5

              Yeah OSA totally sent us! Damn, Charlotte, we’ve been rumbled :(

            • Charlotte

              Okay, if people want to read my viewpoint of ‘let’s own our actions on Earth’ as bashing Christianity, have at it. Being raised Christian, it’s the one I know the most about, hence me referencing it. There are great lessons in there too, without doubt – just like people have great personal wins applying Scientology Tech – but they aren’t owned by Christianity. I like the idea of people knowing that the good, and bad, they do is due to them. It’s a personal viewpoint. :-)

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Atheism is the norm here, you called out Christianity unprompted and now say “wait wait if you feel that I was bashing…”

              Yes. Yes you were.

            • whingeybingey

              Well, have you ever been in Scientology? I’ve been in both EXTENSIVELY and the line that they are just the same or just as bad is bullshit. I have no time for Christianity either, but people are here primarily because they’re interested in Scientology.

              And if you think it’s all about personal responsibility you have NO IDEA about cultic abuse and mind control. Just no clue.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              “Christianity” is so broadly vague, with so many denominations and sects and different sets of beliefs on its practices, to simply say “Christianity is the end of thinking” is completely unfair to the other two billion who didn’t have your experience.

            • Charlotte

              Hence me always and always and always stating my opinion is only my opinion. I am at a loss to find where I have ever asked anyone on here to agree with me, and clearly you don’t. And I’m cool with that.

              The Bunker accepts all.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Well, in my opinion it deserved a response, and having responded, I will leave it be. I wasn’t down voting you either, for the record. I do enjoy many of your other posts here, so I’m sorry if I was overly rude to you.

            • GlibWog

              Jimmy.. I didn’t down vote you , but you were rude..

              So glad you corrected it.

            • Robert Eckert

              It was an opinion on the level of “girls named Charlotte are all stupid.” It came across as a blanket insult, and you really should not be surprised that it was taken as such.

            • Charlotte

              I don’t recall claiming surprise, Robert. A lot has been inferred that I have not implied. It happens easily with the written word; I haven’t been surprised by it in a long while.

              And for the record, if someone were to use your exampled opinion, I’d laugh. Not to be snide, but because I find it funny. I like to laugh. Laughter has helped me so many times over the years. I have many different laughs, and sometimes I manage to surprise myself at the sounds I make. It has been described as ‘breaking out the barnyard’ due to various animalistic sounds. I oft’ am in trouble for choosing levity over gravity.

            • Robert Eckert

              “I don’t recall claiming surprise” Exactly. It came across more that you were intentionally causing dissension.

            • Charlotte

              I think I’ve made it as clear as I can that that was not my intention. To continue to try and assign that nature to me isn’t going to make me doubt myself. It will, likely, earn you ‘upvotes’ from those inclined to agree with any further ‘putting me in my place’, just as this will probably earn me downvotes. When all is said and done, this has no impact on my life. I come here to try and keep me ol’ noggin’ stimulated with a cause I feel strongly about in those moments I’m able to sit down and feed my littlest, and t’others are gleefully employed in the carnage I now get to tidy up before dad gets home.
              To think I would deliberately try to cause dissension is not to know me at all. Feel free to pop over at any time and we’ll clear it all up. :-)

            • Robert Eckert

              When you first showed up here, you said you’d never encountered fundamentalists until you moved to where you live now. Tonight, you were raised fundamentalist and that is supposed to be why you feel the need to insult all Christians. No, I don’t feel that you have made it very clear what your intentions are.

            • Charlotte

              Nope, I never claimed tonight to be raised Fundamentalist. If I am misusing that word, my apologies. I am not clear on the names of all branches, nor the differences between them all. What I meant, and thought I had said, was that I was raised in a Christian faith. Went to a few different churches, different branches, don’t remember them all. I had questions for them all, and kept being told that the answer was ‘God’.
              It wasn’t until I moved here that I was finally awoken to the fact that there were people who took the bible literally. I call them Fundamentalists. Forgive me if that is not the correct assignation. It turns out I used to date a Creationist, but didn’t realise it until years later. I have always been painfully naive, Robert. It has gotten me into far bigger trouble than anything dished out in the Bunker. It’s also why I know not to place my self-worth in up/down voting.
              I wasn’t afforded many opportunities for laughter as a child, so I cling to them now. I piss people off in Real Life too, but mostly, I make people laugh.

            • Robert Eckert

              OK. I thought when you spoke of not being allowed to question anything as a child, that this meant you were raised among the kind of literalist Christians that in a previous post you had denied having met until recently. Sorry that I have been suspicious, and looking for things to poke at, but you know we are having a troll invasion.

            • Eclipse-girl

              No religion owns morality or ethics.

              Both morality and / or ethics evolved with humanity. We couldn’t live together in groups larger than familial or tribal groups unless humanity had some basic rules that the majority (cultural majority) agreed to.

              Civilizations would never have risen if morality /ethic were not common.

              We know there are many civilizations that predated the rise on monotheism

            • einsteinonthebeach

              My guess is that religion was a primitive response to, rather that the cause of, innate feelings of compassion/morality

            • Eclipse-girl

              yes. compassion and empathy have been demonstrated in other species.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Naw, they let me in despite it.

          • KJP in Portland

            They let me in for the court-jester remarks…

        • DamOTclese2

          Aw fuck, I hope that vegetarians are allowed in.

          • Guest

            I see “veterinarians”, on this old memo from the Village Voice blog. Close enough.

          • marti

            broccoli, spinach, peas-love peas, eggplant-yumm, asparagus, onions,tomatoes.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              And bacon.

            • DamOTclese2

              Yes! And peppers and chilies, all kinds, all shapes, all sizes. :) I have granulated Trinidad Scorpion chilies in a jar and *damn* that stuff is awesome!

            • marti

              Pepper and chilies, yes. Draw the line at habeneros.
              Trinidad Scorpion chilies? Hmmmm.

            • DamOTclese2

              After so many years I find habs to be mild, and though the Trinidad is expensive, it’s the hottest available — outside of weaponized pepper sauce. :)

          • kemist

            No.

            You have to eat bacon. Canadian bacon.

            • DamOTclese2

              Well… I’ve been a vegetarian since 1978… Okay, to be a Bunkerite I’ll do it! I’ll eat Canadian bacon. (It’s worth it.) :)

            • John P.

              Here are two experts on Canadian Bacon sharing some of their cooking secrets. I bet this will make you give up your wayward life of vegetarianism for some instinctive carnivore habits. And these guys are card-carrying “Canadians,” too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pPRaD6TKLc

            • Eclipse-girl

              That is just ham. bacon comes from the pork belly.

            • Robert Eckert

              Heretic!

        • Eclipse-girl

          PLEASE never accept that. Understand that science is big issue here. Do not tell me that evolution did not happen or the earth is 6000 yrs old. This is not a science forum, but a lot of commenters have science backgrounds and will not stand for pseudo science.

          You can believe in a god or goddess or many of them.

          Please do not harm others.

          I do not think that you do.

          • Guest

            ? ?

            • Eclipse-girl

              Most theists are not fundamentalist or evangelical. Most theists accept evolution and science. Only a small VOCAL minority appear to be the extremists that are intolerant of anything different from what they believe.

              As members of the bunker we are united in our cause of the end of scientology. Are religious beliefs or nonbeliefs are secondary and not important to putting DM behind bars

            • Guest

              I put the question marks there because I was confused about your earlier comment which was directed to me.

              I’m a college graduate with a strong science background and have never been a fan of pseudo-science or harming people, which is why I was confused by the earlier comment.

          • Jimmy Threetimes

            It is a great misconception that all Christians subscribe to Biblical Literalism. The majority of Christians, at least in the U.S. and Europe, believe in evolution. You are drawing conclusions based on examples of an an extreme right-wing fundamental minority.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I am drawing conclusions. I know that many great (current) scientists are theists.

              I do argue with the small number of christians who are fundamentalists.

            • Missionary Kid

              A great many scientists are atheists, too.

            • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

              But where are all the moderate christians?
              (Sorry, that was a joke, a remark in jest, and my last entry into religion-is-bad/good trolling that I will inflict on y’all)

      • Jimmy Threetimes

        “I find religion, Christianity especially, to be the end of thinking.”

        I find the time to start thinking is before you post.

        • Charlotte

          Just want to pint out, I’m not downvoting you. I only downvoted one person, besides myself, by mistake. And then I rectified it. as for the rest of it, well, happy Bunkering.

          • Jimmy Threetimes

            That’s fine. I was calling you out for the random, out-of-place bashing, not to have a theological debate. I always get down votes when this happens, it doesn’t bother me. Happy Bunkering

            • Seannie5

              how is it out of place?

            • Robert Eckert

              It accomplishes nothing but to make people feel denigrated or angry, dividing people who should stay focused on what unites us here. It is like provocative political statements.

            • Seannie5

              Robert, feel what you want to feel, I;m going to feel bad for having a 2 or 3 post long conversation about scientology/atheism that quickly moved onto Ricky Gervais and The Office. The rest of it is people like you accusing us of being from OSA and lecturing us about what and how to post. Screw it, i’m not bowing down to you all.

      • GlibWog

        Charlotte.. I always make my own choice. I do. ..and I am deeply spiritual..

        I believe in God. I do NOT believe in organized religion. ..and I am a thinker.

        • Charlotte

          Great, Glib.
          I happened to believe in God for a long time after I stopped subscribing to a religion too. I still have great faith, just not in anything definable.

          I also happen to believe that another can post their point of view without it having to encroach on my comfort of my own faith. I’m not trying to win election votes, just posting my own opinion in a public forum.

          If we all thought the same way about everything, where would be the fun in that? :-)

          • whingeybingey

            Well, I agree you, but it got old pretty fast once the Scientologists started doing it in EVERY single comments section on ANY negative article to deflect attention away from their own wrongdoing.

          • GlibWog

            Oh I absolutely agree with you Charlotte. I certainly didn’t down vote you.. Just wanted to comment.

            • KJP in Portland

              I agree with you both.

        • Eclipse-girl

          Glib,
          I believe that one can be an atheist yet still be spiritual. some can argue with me, that fine.

          To me a spiritual moment is when you feel connected with the world, the universe, are in awe of life, and realize how lucky you are to be alive and how insignificant you are in the vastness of the cosmos. maybe a yin yang thing?

          • GlibWog

            OMG E I absolutely believe that 100%… Well thank you … But yes I agree.

            I can’t imagine you NOT looking at an Eclipse and not being in awe and wonder. Yep.. We are on the same page.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Yeah, I love you too. (((HUGS))). we need to go see a great star field sometime and just look

            • GlibWog

              I am a Moon child. ( I know everyone silly Astrology) but I could look at the moon and stars all night………… love Glibby..

            • Eclipse-girl

              With water, hard lemonade, chilled vodka , cream puffs and profiteroles

            • GlibWog

              Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Yes.. Perfecto… xox night honi..

            • Casabeca

              Glad you are not THAT moon child!
              Does this mean you are a late June bday or ?
              Don’t know much astrology…

            • Eclipse-girl

              In something like another 10,000 yrs , total solar eclipses will not occur. Yeah, I am lucky to be alive.

          • Poison Ivy

            “I have no problem with anyone’s belief as long as:

            1) they do not hurt or cause harm to others
            2) they allow for science to be taught in science class
            3) they do not try and pass laws that impose their belief systems on others”

            I agree with all of the above, EG & Glibby I would add one more:

            4) they are tolerant and respectful of others’ (non-harmful) belief systems

            Ideally – in my dream world – I would also add that they are aware that others’ belief systems may well be as ‘accurate’ as their own when it comes to what’s “really out there.” In other words, people of faith recognize the difference between faith and fact, and act accordingly.

            • GlibWog

              PI yep! As I-Betty ( I miss her..; / ) would say..
              Hur Hur

            • Poison Ivy

              Miss her too. :-(

            • Sandy

              Thank you PI. Always the voice of reason

            • SandiCorrena

              Lately my go to remedy is my recollections of the Alfreddie petition a few weeks back, particularly during times of derail or angst, to reboot my system. For example – “I DON’T WEAR PANTS!” in Donald Duck voice to this day cracks me up! Nod to BTN for that gift that keeps giving!

              On bunker craft night we should gather our faves and embroider a sampler; cross stitch a pillow or something….

            • Casabeca

              Bunker craft night and cross stitch mottos? Come on over!
              My hubs will even do the Donald Duck voices for us.
              Now who would choose refreshments 😉 ?

            • Casabeca

              Thank you Ivy.
              That would make for an interesting and lovely world.

            • Eclipse-girl

              A nice addition. TY.

      • Captain Howdy

        “Don’t you know there ain’t no devil, there’s just God when he’s drunk” – Tom Waits

        • Missionary Kid

          Smile.

          • Captain Howdy
            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              “commentor: His voice is so classic, it has a very nice, warm tone. Reminds me of
              old puppet cartoons for children, where was a lector with a voice like
              this. So magical and mysterious, reminds me of my childhood when
              everything seemed awsome”.

              heh, so awesome, so mysterious, so warm so lectorous…..

            • Captain Howdy

              Anton and his family lived in my ‘hood where I grew up. Here’s their house.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              wow. You know, it’s funny about our hood, young and old and older. and what we grew up in and got out of it. I was shocked the first time you mentioned a favorite music classic from the 40’s, you being a punker and all. But I respected you immensely right then and there. I don’t know how this all fits in in the middle of this derail, but I think it’s every flavor of this Bunker blog and why we are here, why we listen to Tony so intently, and why we care about each other the way we do.

              Scientology is just a small corner of a back alley hood that might not matter to most, but the Bunker is a major neighborhood that covers territory that does. You are a part of that neighborhood, Captain, and that’s all that anyone needs to know.

            • Casabeca

              Beautifully said thdne!

            • KJP in Portland

              San Francisco?

            • Captain Howdy

              Yeah, Inner Sunset. I grew up in the Outer Sunset.

            • Missionary Kid

              Laugh. That’s just a publicity seeking devil worshiper – Anton LaVey

              At least he stayed true to his beliefs, whereas LRH changed his to fit what would get him rich.

      • DamOTclese2

        All unevidenced belief is an “end of thinking.”

        • einsteinonthebeach

          Yikes. How do you really feel?

          90% of Nobel Prize winners for Science were theist. That doesn’t mean they are right (I’m an atheist), but it chips away at your theory that they are dumb.

        • Guest

          Wow. I didn’t realize that you hated people like me so much.

          The C o S is very lucky to have your help with trying to push people away from this blog. I hope you at least get a tote bag or a T-shirt for your efforts.

        • Jimmy Threetimes

          Nice edit.

          • DamOTclese2

            Too many Christanic/Islamic cultists were offended by the stark truth.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Is that right? How many of them were Muslim? You always seem to hint on an Islamic presence here, I don’t see it.

    • Robert Eckert

      Side arguments about religion, like arguments about politics, just create divisiveness for no good purpose.

      • KJP in Portland

        Hear, hear, Robert.

      • Jimmy Threetimes

        Is that a Tex Cruz quote? Sounds like Tex Cruz. I hate that Tex Cruz guy.

      • Seannie5

        we weren’t arguing. Maybe the people complaining should learn to ignore any suspected intentions to ‘derail’ and instead focus on what they want to focus on. The thing is, ive seen so many conversations on religion over the months I’ve been here, yet a few decide to make out like we are bad people with nasty intentions. Not accepting it. I’m not going to continue arguing with you, I had finished this last night and wake up to find 3 posts from you saying the same thing, seems to me like you want to keep it going for some reason and that could be seen as derailing now. Check yourself before you judge others so harshly.

        • Robert Eckert

          “ive seen so many conversations on religion over the months I’ve been here” Very few starting out with blanket condemnations. That is OSA tactic, and you know it.

  • ze moo

    1200 posts today, very good for a unemployed blogger on the fringes of the internet. Some days, you can’t stop the winning…..or whining if you’re the clammaster.

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    $250 per day is about $16K by the first of the year.
    Big whoop.

    • Ruby

      Ya, but if they don’t take it down, just think of all the daily articles that will come out of the Tampa Bay Times, and possible protesters in front with signs. :)

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Yeah, but if they DO take it down they will absolutely have to cancel the most important Scient’ILL’logical Event….like ever because of this raging entheta attack brought on by the evil cabol of CW SP’s!

      • DamOTclese2

        In fact a web site specifically dedicated to the crooks’ tent fines for violation city rules would need to be created. :) Must keep these people’s crimes and abuses out front, after all.

        Hope Miscavige refuses to obey wog laws and fights to keep his eye sore. :) For years, if need be. :)

  • KJP in Portland

    I really hate Facebook. My new phone is connected with my computer. I can’t get notifications shut off! Some notifications, FB blocks you from turning off and it really pisses me off! Zuck is sure taking advantage of us, and if we don’t want something, dammit, we don’t want something! I wish someone would come in with an alternative much better than Google+

    I don’t need any tutorialing. I’ve tried so many different ways to get around FB’s system. It’s keep tham or dump them at this point.

    • Charlotte

      Another of the reasons I disconnected from FB a couple of years ago.

    • Sibs

      I haven’t updated Facebook on my phone in a long time, because there aren’t any options for downloading the update without giving the app creepy permissions to invade my privacy. The app keeps threatening me by saying “Update, or soon you won’t be able to see your news feed!” but if that ever happens I think I’ll delete the app.

      • KJP in Portland

        I’ll be right behind you doing that myself, Sibs.

        • Sibs

          Seriously, why does Facebook need to know who’s calling me?

    • Miss Tia

      i know mobile FB is different than PC FB….when i had my tablet, even though i accessed FB via a browser after a few minutes it would go to the mobile version—even though i didn’t d/l the FB app nor WANTED the mobile version of FB….i just stopped using FB on my tablet when i had it, it was too annoying…..

    • einsteinonthebeach

      Facebook is not aware I have a cell phone. I made that mistake with twitter…. once. It mixed all my personal contacts with my twitter followers!

    • Unex Skcus

      Yech, not into FB, and have better things to do than Twitter.

    • Sibs

      Holy crap, so, KJP? I just deleted Facebook from my phone. I got on the app and it came up with a message saying that I couldn’t use it unless I updated. Uninstalled and sent a strongly worded email to Big Brother. Everything just makes me so angry tonight. =/

  • NeverIn

    KSW on the Big Top = “If you leak these event dates we will find out it was you and you can kiss your eternity goodbye. We won’t give you a chance to kiss your family goodbye.”

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Well put, NeverI.
      Very well, indeed !

  • Reality Scamz

    Isn’t scientology flag the hub of activity something must have stirred up the bee hive today. Yes osa you cannot watch everything now can you.

  • Funnybroad

    Big Top Slappy

    • KJP in Portland

      Again, I love it, Funny. I wuvs ya!

    • Observer

      Beautiful!

      Edit: er, the shoop, not Miscavige!

      • Funnybroad

        The idea came from someone named Collin. Someone once said somewhere that Slappy actually reads these discussion boards, and gets especially pissed off when someone shoops him. Do you think that’s true?

        • Missionary Kid

          I certainly hope so.

        • Jimmy Threetimes

          I think Marc Headley said that as well, not sure if it was before or after Collin, but yeah. I buy that shoops piss Miscavige off to no end.

        • Observer

          Marc Headley has posted here how he has personally seen Miscavige get upset when he sees shoops of himself. That’s a yes!

          • Funnybroad

            Sweet! Hopefully, he’ll see these while he’s not grounded with his copper rods.

            • Observer

              Bask in the knowledge that you are at cause over David Miscavige!

            • Guest

              Oh, he is owned!

            • Guest

              For some reason, even though I know the story behind the copper rods, I always picture Miscavige with little copper rollers in his hair with the clips, sitting under a beauty shop hair dryer.

        • Unex Skcus

          I’m terribly concerned that Das Midget might miss a shoop. Wish there was a ‘gallery’ for them all.

    • Phil McKraken

      Thanks!!!

    • Rita Gregory

      That is just a hoot!!! 😀

  • KJP in Portland

    K S W = Keep Spending, Whales

    • Charlotte

      Keep Speaking Welsh, mayhaps? Good luck word clearing everything then.

    • Captain Howdy

      Sheesh, I came up with the definitive KSW acronym on YT like 4 years ago.

      Keep Suckers Wondering

      • I Love Robyn Marks

        Nice one Howdy!

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        There ya’ go, Cap’n !! Definitive, indeed !
        But ya outta post that every couple years, as new people flock to the cause, to the Bunker.

    • Snippy_X

      Krazy Scamming Wombats

      • Eclipse-girl

        I like wombats. Please not wombats. They are usually a gentle marsupial.

        • Snippy_X

          Sorry, weasels? Krazy Scamming Weasels? It’s difficult to dehumanize Scientologists without insulting the non-human species.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Ever been to Australia? Wombats are a gentle marsupial, usually. They are vegetarians, and pretty cool, IMHO.

  • DamOTclese2

    So I’m going to type up a list of things for people to read, then I’m going to sell them the papers for a lot of money, then I’m going to tell the marks to take the papers home and continue to read my lists over and over and to send me $ big $ money $ for every hour that they read my lists.

    And this isn’t fraud? This isn’t outright abject lunatic fraud?

    • Guest

      Always get the money upfront, I tells ya! Get the money upfront! Also, a foreign accent helps.

  • DMSTCC

    March/2010 Gem – The Evil Cult of Scientology – Bust Them!

    1. Objectives illustrated with VPLs.
    2. The Purification Rundown – Every drop of stinking green oily substance sweating out of my skin raises my IQ.
    3. Yes, courses are expensive.
    4. Play-doh pumpers
    5. The word “auditing” is used in it’s Latin origin is “to listen”. (cool story, bro) But, Virginia falls just shy of accuracy – Historically, the word ‘auditing’ has been derived from Latin word “audire” which means “to hear”. Close enough, I guess, but we all know other deffs are incorporated.
    6. E-meters are religious artifacts. ~and… …swallow
    7. Legal fees – Yeah, yeah we spent a lot of money, but we’re done with that.
    8. Auditor and Counselor training with cartoon books.
    9. Why does C0$ hate psychs – “What was previously healed by a priest through ages past is now being medicalized. (They stole our jobs).
    10. Call for Inquirey – Virginia doesn’t want other religions hurt because her cherch is fucked up. Go team religion!!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmoJOYUuuLI

    Somehow I imagine Virginia a bit slimmer these days.

    • Captain Howdy

      Worth watching.

      • marti

        Fredric march is one of my favorite actors.
        Excellent in “Middle of the Night” with beautiful Kim Novak.
        Loved him in “The Best Years Of Our Lives” and his burp scene.
        purrrrr

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          And Frederic, in later years, opposite Spencer Tracy, in the grand “Inherit The Wind” ~

          • Captain Howdy

            Excellent and you beat me to it.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Perhaps his most brilliant performance. A tour de force in motion picture acting.

        • Eclipse-girl

          The Univ of Wis Student Union has a very small theater named the Frederic March Theater. He was born in Racine Wi.

        • jeff

          He as also good in the original A Star Is Born with Claudette Colbert.

  • nottrue

    If they take the KSW sheet down its going to make DM look stupid. If they pay the daily fine its going to make DM look stupid.Its a win win.

    • Charlotte

      Keep Slappy Withering

    • DamOTclese2

      Except that the City of Clearwater will fold, perhaps, and allow the crooks to get away with it yet again.

      • nottrue

        If Clearwater lets them keep the Sheet and says no fine. Then i might just give up on Clearwater(but i could never do that)

    • KJP in Portland

      KEEP SLAPPY WEALTHY!

  • Charlotte

    A random note of Bunker love.
    Whenever we have any kind of disagreement at home, especially where feelings may have been hurt, I always like to point out how lucky we are to be able to trust each other enough to speak our truths, even knowing it won’t necessarily be popular. We can disagree because we know we’re safe. Part of what being family means.

    Happy Bunkering.

    • Missionary Kid

      Thanks from a Bunkaroo. I agree.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        btw, MK- Bunkaroo is my fave, too ~

    • Eclipse-girl

      Charlotte,
      Not all of us grew up in functional families. it takes a lot of trust to speak out when you feel wronged, and a lot of ?grace to let things go and not l hold grudges. I am still learning.

      • Charlotte

        My family was [and is] far from functional, Eclipse Girl. I got my sense of who I am at a very young age due to having nobody else to talk to, nor confide in. I’m still finding my voice – a thought which TERRIFIES my hubby.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Dang, C. – poor hubby !

          • Charlotte

            No, no AD, he’s ‘lucky’, see? He’s ever so lucky I can feel comfortable ‘debating’ with him about things. Otherwise, I’d just be raising the kiddlie pies, baking cakes, and smiling sweetly. What kind of a man would want that….?

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Puttin’ it that way, Mrs C. – he am ever so lucky, ab so freaking lute ly !!! ~

            • GlibWog

              My HUSBAND…

            • Charlotte

              He just wants you to jump out of those cakes again, Glibby!

            • KJP in Portland

              Lordy, I love that photo!

            • GlibWog

              smooches.. OK computer off… The reason I like that photo is what a sweet memory of meeting my husband… Didn’t know that we would marry 30 years later of course..xo

            • Casabeca

              The most boring and insufferable man at the cocktail party 😉
              But sounds like your guy is a good one!

        • Eclipse-girl

          That “voice” is very useful as a teacher. It scare the shit out of the students. You can’t use it often, but it helps seeing the “cool kids” make messes in their pants.

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      I think the disagreement was purely semantic, and completely agree with this post. No hurt feelings, only happy bunkering.

    • KJP in Portland

      We ARE a family here with a very JUST common-cause. It’s the most safe, comfortable and REAL place I know on the Internet.

      • joan nieman

        Yes KJP…it is a warm and inviting place with a just cause. I really believe that this cult will go down, brick by brick and plank by plank.

        • KJP in Portland

          Yes ma’am. Good to see you again! It’s been a few days. I hope you’re well! (((hugs)))

    • Charlotte

      And nobody has to put in Ethics.

  • Ruby

    I am looking forward to photos from Sunny Sands tomorrow! :)

  • Artoo45

    Oh shit, my iPad just corrected my misspelling of “Marcabian” . . . correctly. That can’t be good.

    • whenpigsswim

      Wow!!!

      • KJP in Portland

        Hey, I think the tent needs giant pig-balloons above the tent like the cover of the Pink Floyd album!

        • whenpigsswim

          I’m all for giant pig balloons! Especially if it looks like they are swimming.

    • Observer

      Yeah, mine autocompletes enturbulation …

      • NeverIn

        I think that means it’s time to start stocking up on canned goods and ammo.

    • einsteinonthebeach

      Now THAT is comment of the century:)

      I can’t stop laughing!

      • KJP in Portland

        Many older English words (pre-1970) seem to autocorrect on my phone. I hate that!

  • NeverIn

    New and improved messaging. *Refresh*

    • KJP in Portland

      Tweakers Will be Fair Gamed!

    • SandiCorrena

      Every time someone shoops the tent the devil pinches Davey’s #$$!!!!
      You know all these shoops are making that little man crazy; I just know it!

      • marti

        Transcendental Meditation would help him.

    • KJP in Portland

      “Leakers”…you mean the ones trapped in the locked tent so many hours, they have to pee under the bleachers? ;p

      • NeverIn

        LOL! But for realz, has anybody here sat through COB speech in that tent when it was in the UK? Does it start to smell from all the bodies and breath condensation and whatnot? Is it really the 3-hr ordeal joked about?

        • KJP in Portland

          With all the bodies inside, maybe the condensation will make rain as predicted in the Great Hall that Albert Speer designed for Germania (Berlin) that Nazi Germany never built.

  • Funnybroad

    Wouldn’t it be cool if…

    • KJP in Portland

      Funny, I did mention last night how funny it would be if someone loaded and rented a cropduster full of dry red paint dust and accidentally unloaded over the tent! Oh, the lulz! (don’t worry Blowhardtology…I am poor and live 3,300 miles away. You have nothing to fear!, lol!)

      • einsteinonthebeach

        India Ink…. in balloons.

        • Eclipse-girl

          Media Lutz even had a post as to how to make balloon sling shots

          • KJP in Portland

            I have some great ideas but I’m not posting them here. Little Dipstick probably reads here and I wouldn’t want to give him any countermeasures ideas…

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            What autocorrect turns “Media Lush” into “Media Lutz???” Must be a fan of 30 Rock.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Actually it is my bad typing. But I like the humor, I hope ML can laugh at my mistake, too

    • marti

      Dear Funnybroad, Actually, no. The bullseye is not cool. No harm to anyone. Please.

      • GlibWog

        That is so funny Marti when I saw that ( I’m Blonde ) I thought it was Target 3 for Hubs to find his way back to earth. I never thought about Harm.

        • marti

          Could you give me a ride home?

          • GlibWog

            I don’t even know where I live half the time let alone you.. : )

        • whenpigsswim

          GlibWog – I about fell over laughing when I read your post. Looking for him to arrive pretty soon now …..

          • GlibWog

            Pigs.. Shit I figure if they can put an office in the stupid Orgs when he returns ..They can also put a big old Target on the Tent for him to Float down on…

            • whenpigsswim

              The more potential entry points, the better (I guess)!

        • SandiCorrena

          we think alike and I only wish I was blonde! :)

          • GlibWog

            Well.. There ya go Sandi… PS.. ( I wish I were a REAL blonde too..) ha

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I had a VERY blonde, older friend. People used to ask me: Is that really her hair? My reply: Of course it is. She paid good money for it…

            • GlibWog

              Duh Yeah..

            • Missionary Kid

              I used to be a blonde, but now I describe my hair as naturally platinum blonde.
              My mother used to say that gray hair makes you look extinguished.

            • Robert Eckert

              A poem from ancient Rome:

              There are some who say she dyes her hair,
              But that’s a foul aspersion.
              She buys it black, it therefore needs
              No subsequent immersion.

      • SandiCorrena

        it could be a parachute target for you know whoooooooo……..

      • Funnybroad

        No harm to people… just the tent while nobody is looking.

        • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

          no. Still not funny.

      • Robert Eckert

        She just wants to turn it into a Target store. At least then it would serve a useful function.

    • KJP in Portland

      If they never have a Supah Powaz, they can always rent it out to Barnum & Bailey?

      • 3feetback-of-COS

        convert it to condos!

    • kemist

      People would think it’s a special sales tent from the Target store.

  • AsthmaticDwarf

    It is this structure, not the tent – that presents Demented Despicable Degraded Deluded Deranged Detestable Dave ‘sailor boy’ Savage Miscavage with his biggest headache. The tent is a side show- to distract. The problem structure is Supah Powah, the Flag Building.

    Dave regged membership of $cientology Inc. for almost 20 years, to build and open this building, delivering to clams what they all most covet: their very own super powers. The Garcias lawsuit is about their being defrauded in the fundraising that went on for the building. Etc. et al.

    Still — he *has to* open the dang thing. And that is not gonna work! Look at that sucker. It is at leas 3 times the size of their Fort Harrison Hotel. It will be impossible to staff it / run it / deliver services in it / and make it look like there is anyone in it ! at any given time !!

    It’s failure will be the single biggest disaster in corporate $cientology history, since its incorporation in, what, 1952.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      This^^^^^^

    • KJP in Portland

      Someday, it will make a great City Hall and government offices for the City of Clearwater!

      • Eclipse-girl

        Sorry THDNE has first Dibs. it needs to be used to reintegrate the families and victims into life outside of the cult.

        • KJP in Portland

          Better idea! I like it, Eclipse :)

      • Phil McKraken

        It is way bigger than the office space needs for the city and expensive to maintain. It will be razed, a white elephant never to be occupied.

        • KJP in Portland

          Phil may be right. That’s one hell of a white elephant…big as a stadium.

        • 3feetback-of-COS

          Divide it up/remodel it and sell it as condos!

          • Missionary Kid

            There aren’t enough windows for each condo, or fire exits, etc. The standards for residences, I believe (but don’t quote me) are much higher than for office buildings. It’s a white elephant, as KJP has said.

            • KJP in Portland

              ‘If’ they gutted the entire shell, Clearwater could have a medium sized hockey or basketball stadium. The outer dimensions appear pretty similar to Maple Leaf Gardens. They could get about 14,500 in there. But, it would have to be gutted with just the facades left in place. Other problem is, in doing that, it would cost as much as a design and build stadium from the ground up.

              Hmm…how to recycle that thing…

            • Missionary Kid

              It won’t work as a stadium. the present roof needs support in the middle. Implode it, just like the kult.

            • KJP in Portland

              Then that makes for a hell of an expensive empty lot left over! OUCH!

            • Missionary Kid

              Yup. Like the rest of Co$. There’s little value for great cost.

      • Mr. Sovereign

        I agree, when their buildings across the world are sold off (under the control of appointed administrators, no doubt) the benefit of the Cult’s renovations * will at least go back to the general community/economy.

        edit: * provided renovations are legal.

    • Natalia M

      Yep.

    • Phil de Fontenay

      Yeah that’s true. All the times I was at Flag it was nowhere near full. So how are they going to fill up that behemoth. No way. There is just not enough flow of people moving up the Bridge. Scios will argue that the “brand new” GAT2 will get the ball rolling with cheaper, faster Grades. Bullshit! When new people come in and are faced with this new Basics course it will all come to a screeching halt… Already has! 😉

      • DodoTheLaser

        Bullshit it is! Just like not so ideal The Ideal Orgs.
        They got pretty buildings that are still pretty empty.
        The only stats that are going straight up and vertical belong to pop corn manufacturers.

        • Phil de Fontenay

          Yeah exactly! You just reminded me that I need to get down to the south of Taiwan and see how their Ideal Org is going. It’s been close to opening for the last 10 years ~lol

          That will be empty too when it finally opens. ~lol

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Dear Leader’s Field of Nightmares: If you build it, they will NOT come.

      • KJP in Portland

        Hell no, all those double doors will be chained shut and no one will be able to leave until they’ve emptied their wallets and purses in front of the big goon bouncer types.

      • Casabeca

        But if they accidentally end up there they will laugh at you :)

  • KJP in Portland

    Sox in 6?

  • Funnybroad

    Check out this creepy pop-up ad I just got!

    • Aslansown

      Yikes!

    • Eclipse-girl

      Wonder who those 2 people are??

      • Aslansown

        DM and TC.

      • KJP in Portland

        Davey and his ‘Communicator’? roflmao!

      • KJP in Portland

        Beavis and Butthead? hehehe, hehehe, hehehe…

    • GlibWog

      I’ve gotten that before Funny..

    • KJP in Portland

      My doggy and kitty are spying on me…right now!

  • NeverIn

    This made me smile. Mike Pattinson explains Xenu until he can’t.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxQaqsoPRoI

    • GlibWog

      NeverIn.. I am glad I am going to bed with Mike’s laughter in my ears..Thank you.. Night all yawwwwwwn

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Sweet dreams!

      • KJP in Portland

        Sweet dreams, Glibby!

    • Tory Christman

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjmbbWE5IOw A taste of an “OT 7” Session. NOTE: If you’re an
      Indie and don’t want to know…DO NOT WATCH THIS. Thank you :) Tory/Magoo

      • NeverIn

        Ha ha! I *just* finished watching that! I’m going through your whole catalog again…
        Seriously, I can watch you all day Tory. You have such great energy.

        • Tory Christman

          Neverin: Thank you! Yah…I did these awhile ago, but you can see in the comments people are commenting as of a few hours ago! And one has 26K+ hits on it. Jeesh. :)

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            and the one I watched is right near and inching toward 30,000 hits !!
            That is huge! You are a 1 woman un-amonymoose army !!!

      • Sandy

        You are such a funny, charming reporter. Pleeze keep checking in!

        • Tory Christman

          Thank you, Sandy…I love you all, here :)

      • KJP in Portland

        I love Tory’s smile. It lights my whole room! (((hugs)))

        • Tory Christman

          Thank you, KJPinPortland :) {{Hugs}}

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        and twice per year, a person on OT 7 would have to – from wherever they were in the world – travel to the Fort Harrison Hotel, and pay for dozens of hours of ‘security checks’, on the e-meter, Flag-auditing. Twice per year, every 6 months. People must hate that, Tory C. – musn’t they?

        • Tory Christman
        • Tory Christman

          AsthmaticDwarf: Actually, as I tell of below in the next OT 7 video…for some time it was a bit like “camp”. Granted, a VERY Expensive camp…but fun for most of us. Until “Dave” decided we all needed to “get professional” and take on the Doctors, Dentists, and “people w/ Big Money”. He 86’d ALL the Fun we were having, literally tore things off the walls, made people cut their hair…it was quite an insane time. Yes, as it continued, it got awful and yes, most of us grew to hate 6-Month Checks. Why did we stay? My question was: “PLEASE LET ME OFF OF THIS LEVEL” (How do we get out of here?) Answer:
          “OK, CONTINUE”. BARF! Well…I finally did, but certainly NOT on their terms!

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Around what year, do you think it was, when Dave McSavage 86’d the goodtimes, and commanded people on OT levels, to “get professional?”

      • notclear

        Love it. But with all the close up whispering I kept thinking, how did Tory get into in my sleeping bag?

        • Tory Christman

          LOL Good one, notclear!

  • Robert Long

    You people are all geniuses.
    (tears)
    “My God, it’s full of stars!” -Dave Bowman

    • AsthmaticDwarf
    • GlibWog

      Mr. Robert Long.. I hope I never lose my sense of wonder.. and yep.. I love looking at stars. : )

      ( I think that was from I hope you dance.. I don’t think I made that up..haha )

  • Ardent

    That Scientology ‘cross’ really gets my goat! What a transparent pathetic gimmick. I mentioned in another post about the time I took one of the tests they offer: I wandered in with a friend for a laugh. I also asked where the chapel was. This was met with a confused expression. “Well”, I said (I am paraphrasing: I can’t recall my exact words 30+ years on!), you have a cross outside, and it says ‘Church’. So, where is the chapel? Where do you pray?” ” I can’t show you that” “Why not?” “I can’t show you that – it is very private”. “Where is it, though”?, I asked, looking around the dreary street-level office-building room complete with buzzing fluorescent lights. She gestured toward the back: “Back there”. I figured she was lying,and dropped the subject. What a crooked sham.

    • einsteinonthebeach

      They don’t pray. They prey.

      These people send their children to courses about “finding someone’s ruin.”
      The predatory training starts early.

      • Poison Ivy

        Postulating takes the place of praying. You don’t ask any mamby pamby higher power for anything, you “make it go right” your all-powerful self, with your unlimited power over MEST.

        If it doesn’t happen the way you postulate it – well, you did it wrong, you ser-facy bastard! Or maybe it’s that SP wife of yours. Better divorce her.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          or maybe it’s that the ser-facky/service facsimile bastard SCOHB !!!

    • jeff

      Since LRH described Christianity as an implant, I always thought it was literally an X’d-out cross.

      • einsteinonthebeach
        • KJP in Portland

          I never read that before. I liked reading about the strange admissions of LRH which clearly contradict the cult’s history of him. Very, very good link. Thank you.

          • einsteinonthebeach

            Thanks. I hope our resident troll, Eugene K, reads some of Tony’s great investigations. He might learn something.

            • KJP in Portland

              I don’t want to see Eugene K. here. Many others do not either. I might end up typing a tirade of epic proportions and that’s not the heart and soul of why I am here. I don’t want to run into the bugger…

            • einsteinonthebeach

              I suspect he’s a crazy Freezoner. Sometimes they settle down, but in the meantime if you put up with disingenuous behaviour, there is always the chance that it’s OSA trying to play the tolerance card.

            • KJP in Portland

              OSA are a rabble of half-starved pitbulls.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I’ve tried my best with him but when he refused to simply acknowledge Lori Hodgkin’s personal ongoing tragedy and then dismissed and essentially blamed her for her situation, I lost it on him, and totally called him out on it and caught him in an obvious logical consistency. He want respond to me any more. I’m not done with him, but I’ll immediately give him props if he demonstrates even a wee bit of compassion and critical reason. I’m a long time chronic lurker, but I especially like coming out for some troll.

            • KJP in Portland

              If I’m on at the time we can tag-team him. I like ‘outing’ unempathetic trolls!

            • Robert Eckert

              And I’ve seen you handle trolls superbly. He’s a hard case.

          • jeff

            His affirmations are legendary, including one about how lovely and perfect his feet are.

        • jeff

          Wow. Appropriated from Crowley.

          • einsteinonthebeach

            Yeppers!

            • Casabeca

              The article has the perfect amount of snark :)

            • jeff

              But I still want to know, what did it mean to Crowley? (so I ordered Urban’s book).

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        me too, from the git go.

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Plus. it’s expensive! Just ask the Garcias how much they paid towards the cross on David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige’s old shed.

    • Missionary Kid

      It’s a double cross, which perfectly describes LRH.

    • Sarah James

      Abuse of a cross. The scientology way…

  • Douglas D. Douglas

    Since so many here seem to think they can improve upon the graphic wrap on that big tent down in Clearwater, here is my humble offering.

    See– there’s a big crowd on the outside, and when photographed won’t require any post-event shoop fails! And since everyone in the graphic is a member of the Church of Scientology, it’s a religious image. Double win!

    • Casabeca

      Perfect solution!

    • Aslansown

      Brilliant!

  • einsteinonthebeach

    Wow this blog has a lot of commenters lately! On track for 1700 comments!

    • KJP in Portland

      Meh…’tis an average day here at the center of the universe.

  • AsthmaticDwarf

    After seeing ” 12 Years a Slave, ” I read Derek’s heartfelt angst and emotion, regarding how public $cientologists ‘looked down upon him’, treated him and SeaOrg, as their servants. Nearly slaves. Like- Fetch, Fido, faster, Fido. The celebs and whales, *mistreat* the most committed scientologists on the planet, SeaOrg, in a massive display of arrogance and ridicule. How pitiful – and pathetic – the celebs and whales, who mistreat the base core staff of their “religion”. *Nothing* speaks worse about the *state of scientology* than how they treat their own. It is a disgrace.

    Gato Roja commented @ Something Can Be Done About It:
    “One thing I have to put my two cents in about is the $50 a week. Every time I see this I cringe and want to do my little rant. Because it ISN’T $50 a week. It’s much less. If you ever really got $50 ($45 with SS taken out) you were ecstatic. It was more like $16.32 or $3.50 any lesser number. Even nothing at all for many weeks in a row–once I went for over 3 months with no pay at all, along with the rest of the crew. People had to use soap because they couldn’t afford shampoo, and some staff lost a lot of weight not wanting to eat rice and beans all the time yet had no money to buy anything else in the little store that sold snacks.

    Anyone getting the wonderful PR about the SO….it just ain’t true. It actually never was. Here’s to a speedy implosion…”

    • KJP in Portland

      Hear, hear! Amen!

    • Sibs

      I was lying in bed trying to check Facebook a while ago (this comment took too long to write) when I heard this guy’s voice SCREAMING. He’s so angry and so muffled that the only words I could clearly make out were “YOU BITCH” (because how can you mistake that?). And I hear this woman’s voice screaming and a kid wailing. And it got to a point where I thought I should call the police (something about that guy’s tone of voice really scared me)… except I barely know my neighbors in this complex and I couldn’t tell them who it was at all. Before I could get out of bed and put on a hoodie and a pair of slip-on shoes it all stopped. And now I have this sick complicit feeling in my stomach and I’m not sure what I should do. Like, I don’t feel like I CAN do anything about it right now even though I desperately want to. I don’t know if that woman and that kid are okay.

      When it comes to the cult most of the time I feel like I can channel my anger and disgust toward productive things that will stop the cult and spread awareness. But when I read today about Derek and what he went through in the Sea Org and then this comment, I just feel so overwelmed. This is not okay, and what the hell will it take for the FBI to bust their asses over human trafficking and child labor? And is there something I can do about it? Right now… bleh, maybe I’m just in a really bad mood from what just happened. Forgive me, I am slowly losing the ability to… whatsit, express myself, so I’m just gonna hope you get what I mean.

      Anyway, I’m really depressed and my meds that keep me from rambling incoherently are wearing off and I think after I click on those “new comments” thingies above and below this box I’ll call it a night. I spent wayyyy too long drafting this rant.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        I love your rant, Sibs — your heart is right and true. Get some rest, relax thyself, chill a bit, take some deep breaths, and rest assured that you are one of the ‘good guys’, as it were. Peace out ~

    • HCO Chief

      Thank you so much for pointing this out. I’ve always thought the same thing every time I read that. I was at Saint Hill in the Sea Org in the late nineties and we were supposed to get £30 a week but it probably averaged out to about £12, and of course there were many times we went several weeks in a row with nothing. I had to borrow toothpaste on numerous occasions. I remember hearing how Sea Org registrar’s got 10% of whatever they sold and thinking what the f? Not sure how accurate that is.

  • KJP in Portland

    Ahem, barh, hrumph, I hereby decree the new nickname for Tommy and Daveykins to be…BEAVIS and BUTTHEAD!

    • Missionary Kid

      Yes, that’s a good one. That will go in my collection of nicknames for TC and DM. The other nickname for them is The Douche Twins.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Surely someone has already suggested “Dumb and Dumber”?

        • Charlotte

          It just seems too friendly, EO.

        • Missionary Kid

          Here’s the list, I added it.
          ABOUT DM & TC
          Bevis and Butthead
          Dumb and Dumber
          The Douche Twins

    • Miss Tia

      oh please don’t insult Beavis & Butthead! They don’t deserve that! :)

  • 3feetback-of-COS
    • KJP in Portland

      ^^^^^^^^^

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Outstanding! Thank you 3feetBoCoS.

      • 3feetback-of-COS
        • AsthmaticDwarf

          LoL !! Much respect, 3feet !

        • Tory Christman

          Thanks 3feet for the link! ABC interviewed tons of us over a year ago..and then never did *a* thing with it…at least not yet. (I’m still hoping they do). At least they nailed C of $ in Clearwater—that’s a start. :) Love your feet, too!

  • KJP in Portland

    Someone put up the 3-Stooges gif. It’s getting quiet in here…I laugh like a hyena every time it is posted. C’mon, make my night!

    • KJP in Portland

      Fine, I’ll listen to more Bob Nolan and the Sons of the Pioneers…

      • Missionary Kid

        Saturday’s History Detectives on PBS had a bit on Bob Nolan. He lost the rights to the song, Tumbling Tumbleweeds, but finally got it back.

        • KJP in Portland

          He got it back after a long court case sometime in the 60s. Yet, he may have written OVER 1,000 songs and had all the rights and royalties from them. He died in ’80. I got to see Mr. Lloyd Perryman and the ‘newer’ Pioneers up here with my Dad in ’76. Perryman died a year later. He actually sat down and TALKED to Dad and me for a couple minutes! Dad had been a fan since childhood in the 30s. Perryman was a very kind and modest gentleman!

          A great deal of Nolan’s earnings were swindled out of the country by his financial advisor who left for Israel in 1949, right as he retired from the group. He still had a comfortable retirement, but he could’ve been as rich as his friend, Roy Rogers (Len Slye) if he hadn’t been ripped off.

          Nolan was a giant of a man, a hell of a songwriter and a one of a kind voice. He loved the southwest…probably parts of it very near to you. He even had a cabin at Big Bear.

          …what a man. Immortal, kinda like Caruso.

          • Missionary Kid

            That, in essence is what the story told on PBS was. The show will probably be replayed, or you could go online and probably find it.

    • ThetaBara

      Dood. If you really need to see it again then why don’t you download it and repost it yourself?
      As if this place isn’t enough of a chatbox as it is!

      • KJP in Portland

        Was that really necessary, ma’am? It was very idle in here at that juncture and I only requested something light-hearted? I’m sorry, then.

        • KJP in Portland

          The Bunker works hard and plays hard. If there’s something very serious going on, we stick to our tasks until the issue has been resolved; if it’s a lighter day, then why not be chatty? Hell, 75% of us do that. Why all doom and gloom, all the time?

          Many friendships have been formed here. We know about new babies, bad marriages, personal horror stories, and also, joys of free living. Chat is fine if there’s not much a do going on, but, oh boy, the commenters really work hard and put their nose to the grindstone when the topic or situation is very important!

          When there are CL ads to spam, everybody gets on them, pronto! Anything to help our common-cause, we are dead-on working hard! And serious, or not, we all inhabit here because we have a COMMON CAUSE…the downfall of Miscavige and his terrible, infernal cult!

        • ThetaBara

          IDK. Is it really necessary to post dozens of content-free posts?
          Apparently so.
          This place used to have really relevant and informative comments. I’ve got nothing against hugs and connecting, but I tire of the meaningless off-topic chatbox posts that add nothing relevant to the conversation. I wish Tony would add a live chat function so that those of use who want actual content could find it more easily, while folks who want to connect would have a place for that.

          • koki

            totally agree with TB,
            and a big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

      • KJP in Portland

        (I’m not downvoting you). I like you too much, and I do listen to what you’re saying, but it does get dead in here sometimes, and what’s a little fun and friendship? All of us here a while do indeed have a tight and common bond.

        • koki

          it is 1808 comments,but it is 800 of yours….slow it down…it is hard for us from LRHs Bulgravia,from where I send you a big hello ,to track important things…

          • KJP in Portland

            There were 14 hours’ postings before I logged in here. I think I only posted about 96. Go up top and change settings to oldest-first and read the summation of the day? You need not barge in here and give me a hard time.

            • koki

              please read your answer again,take a minute,think about it….
              maybe 100,is to much (and it is a HALF of a day),at least here in LRHs Bulgravia,from where I send all of you a big hello…

            • KJP in Portland

              Sorry, my bad. I posted 59 times in 12 hours. My math sucks…96 sounded a tad high.

              I’m usually around 30-35 posts.

              Long day. Goodnight!

    • Tory Christman

      This isn’t as good as the 3-Stooges…but it’s close! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJwFdPHC8Uc&feature=c4-overview&list=UU__gcXYVQlmVocNLZykibUw $cientology’s CMO!

      • Natalia M

        <3

      • Sarah James

        Tory, you make me laugh. So glad you made it out of cult.:)

        • KJP in Portland

          She rocks! How wonderful to have her vivaciousness intact. Funny and big-hearted. Gotta love her!

      • KJP in Portland

        Thank you Tory! (((hugs)))

  • DodoTheLaser

    Karen DeLaC posted this 7 minutes ago on the FB:

    “As
    the Internet explodes more and more about the abuses, I realized I was
    not unique at all in the personal abuses suffered. How dare they fair
    game me after killing my son and enjoying my slave labor in the best
    years of my life !
    This was the culture. This is the agreement of one and all.
    The “Church” is paranoid against anyone it deems an enemy.
    A “Church enemy is anyone who is critical of the Church’s flawless RIGHTNESS and GOODNESS.
    The Church believes it is right 100% of the time.
    Scientology Inc does not see that severe disagreements are something to be mediated.
    Simply befriending someone speaking out defines you as ANOTHER enemy !
    Radical official Scientology believes it is in the war of absolute good and absolute evil.
    Suppressive persons are the ultimate evil and they are the ultimate good !
    Total evil must be destroyed, hence the FAIR GAME. Hence the dirty black job operations.
    Scientology Inc believed it controlled the media and the press due its phony tactics of threatening law suit.
    Remember the “Vanity Fair” Nazanin Boniadi threats ? “See you in court” they told Vanity Fair,
    Where’s the law suit ?

    I predicted months ago that it was all HOT AIR ! Bogus meaningless words…

    How bizarre that Scientology Inc does not see themselves as the LIARS that they are…”

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Ms. Karen de la C. – fighting the good fight. I <3 how she, J Swift and AngryGayPope carry on with their efforts to reveal the cult of greed, $cientology Inc.

      • DodoTheLaser

        For anyone still in and lurking – Karen’s training level is Class XII auditor.

        Thank you for looking!

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Hey Dodo. You got yourself quite the fanclub last night. lucky you!

          • DodoTheLaser

            Yeah, says the one who rode in the limo with TOrtega and all the hotties, trolling The Ideal Tent! 😉

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Well……OK, I win! When I walked around the corner at THDNE house and saw TO, I said “Awe man! If I knew you were gonna be here, I’d have worn my best underwear.” He must have thought “what a weirdo.”

            • DodoTheLaser

              Hahahahaha! Thanks for the good laugh!

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              See why BTN likes me? Equally as “off” as her.

              I forget, are you on the late shift because you’re really the morning shift but half way round the world, or are you a night owl like me?

            • DodoTheLaser

              ROFL! Yes, I see that! :)

              Night owls we are. I sleep in a comfy casket during a day and always wear black when awake. I seize the night.

              Just kidding. Sort of…

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Ah well, then enjoy the crushed red velvet lining. I’m out….gotta be awake in 4 hours.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Sleep well!

            • KJP in Portland

              Don’t scare the kiddies Thursday night, Dodo! Lol!

            • DodoTheLaser

              Nah, kids will be safe.
              I only hunt on whales, preferably in over sized tents.
              And only allegorically speaking. :)

            • 1subgenius

              I am so going to use that line.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Dang, DoDoTL — it’s comments like that one I wish I could upvote 10 x !!

            • DodoTheLaser

              :)

    • Sarah James

      I get so angry when I see what Karen has given to cos and what has been taken from her. Then the tiny sh# has the gall to Fair Game her? OSA goons are just Miscavige freaks. They are criminals. For a very long time I have wanted them to be held to the same standard of judgement befitting their crimes. They won’t have the legal defense their master Miscavige will have at hand.
      For every day you hold on to Lori’s children, I hope they add 5years to your sentence. It is coming, your hands are as dirty as David Miscaviges. Hateful useless cult.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Scientology – Hateful useless cult.

        Good luck with The Ideal Stupid Tent.

        • Sarah James

          Lol

    • ThetaBara

      It amazes me that she is still realizing this, even after being out for some time. It is such a mindfsck. No one deserves it. Oh, and this is SO Why.
      See you at the next raid, assholes.

      • 1subgenius

        “See you at the next raid, assholes.”

        I admire the fact that you are one of the few people here who actually puts boots on the ground and does more than just keyboard warrioring..
        I have to keep reminding myself that this isn’t a project planning site, so I apologize in advance to one and all.
        I would say that I would like to raid with you one day, and I will if I am in your city, but my fervent hope is that this shit is over before that comes to pass.
        (michigananon on youtube).

  • ThetaBara

    A Tent for Davey:

    • KJP in Portland

      THAT is funny!

    • Sarah James

      He wishes!

      • KJP in Portland

        The architect, designer sure got away with murder with the code authorities! roflmao!

      • Sarah James

        His ideal org!

    • Sydjazz

      Lol that is awesome

  • koki
    • DeElizabethan

      Fantastic and good on ABC for at least reporting it.

      • koki

        hope lots of networks do the same….
        we are lucky here in LRHs Bulgravia,to have a dial up network,so I can send all of you a big hello.
        (no more fax-machines).

        • DeElizabethan

          Really appreciate it koki!

  • Sydjazz
  • Meccaanon

    Having the letters “KSW” on a Scientology tent in downtown Clearwater is clearly offensive. Keeping Scientology Working admits that Scientology is an anti-social, un-democratic with designs to take over civilization and remake it in Scientology’s image. Not only that, those who are deem unworthy are to be “:disposed of without pity.” You can use your imagination of what they mean by that, but I choose to take them at their word. If people don’t want Scientology then they get pulled out of their homes, put into camps and eventually “disposed of.” This is their creed, this is their intent.

    I would be no less offended if they placed a giant Swastika on the sides of that behemoth of a tent. If COB and RTC were to come out and admit that this doctrine was outdated and evil and agree to do away with it, I’d have some small amount of respect for them. That they not only sustain this evil creed, but hoist it up in fifty foot tall letters over my city is an abomination.

    • DeElizabethan

      Exactly! Well said.

  • Eugene K

    There is another point to address in this article expressed this time by the Bunker which I assume is Tony Ortega himself or one of his assistants:

    “ … and writing down what the e-meter’s needle does — a machine that is reading tiny fluctuations in the galvanism of your skin, which is affected by sweat, grip, and salt. (We know Scientologists don’t understand this or choose to ignore it, and are convinced that the machine is reading the “mass” of their thoughts.)”

    It would perhaps be a good idea to do a more thorough research before making such a wild assumption. In Scientology, there is a good amount of training that goes into understanding how to operate an E-meter and how to understand various needle reactions. OBVIOUSLY, Scientologists are supposed to learn to distinguish
    needle reactions that occur from “body reactions” as opposed to those that come from changes in psychological states.

    Here is an excerpt from 1968 E-Meter Essentials book (I don’t have access to the materials currently in use at the Church, but I’m sure the new training curriculum covers similar ground in E-meter training):

    “1. A needle is monitored by the sensitivity knob, the Tone Arm and the momentary or changing reactions of the preclear.

    48. Body reactions (9). The deep breathing of a preclear, a sigh, a yawn, a sneeze, a stomach growl can any one of them make a needle react.

    49. Get a person on the cans. Turn the sensitivity high. Make him do the following one at a time: sigh, yawn, breathe deeply, cough, laugh, knock the cans together, lift a finger off the electrode (can), convulsively grip the cans, scratch his head while holding the cans, scratch his leg, rub a can against his or her shirt or skirt, rub his fingers together without letting the cans touch, and stretch. Note the needle reactions. Now have the person do all these things again as you read them off. Now turn down the sensitivity knob so that the needle drops one-third of a dial (about one and a half inches). Now with that setting, read off the list to him and watch the needle.

    50. Do you see now why you don’t run with high sensitivity?

    51. These are body reactions. “

    And if anyone on the Bunker team actually EXPERIENCED an auditing session, they would know that every session starts with some preparations which can include putting lotion on your hands and/or wiping them with a napkin to ensure better connectivity through the cans.

    So much for “Scientologists don’t understand this…”

    • Valerie Ross

      Eugene, I guess you think you win if nobody answers your posts? Here’s the deal. It’s today not yesterday. If you want to post today, you post comments in today’s posts. Trolling in yesterdays posts explaining the wheatstone bridge tech may get you points with OSA f/k/a the GO, but that’s all. At least you won’t be required to have to read anyone’s responses to any of the posts you post by posting on a dead thread. Now buh bye. I’m going back to the real post.

      • Eugene K

        No, and there is really no need to come up with some wild explanations. You could have just asked, maybe, why I did not post this yesterday. How about I just needed some extra time to find the excerpt that I wanted to quote in my post. Simple, isn’t it?

        • Robert Eckert

          No, nobody was asking why you didn’t post yesterday. Rather, we were shaking our heads that you posted today, on a thread that isn’t today’s. So you have been offered some basic orientation. This is a daily blog, with a new thread each day.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Eugene K,
      This is not a forum like ESMB. We bee’s swarm to the new thread when one is posted. If you want someone to read what you are writing, it will get little traction on a day old post.
      Now, with that said. The e-meter is no more or less than what Tony says it is. It works because you want to believe it.
      How come so many Scientologists will tell you how much they enjoyed self analysis where there is no e-meter involved? You can still have a very positive reaction to that simple process. But even that is just a nice little memory therapy.
      No matter ho much you refuse to believe it, Hubbard ripped off everything. The only thing I will give him credit for is managing to take all of the tidbits he stole and manage to repackage them into something…uh, sort of unique.

      • Valerie Ross

        LOL Bury, we posted at the same time, see you back where the real action is.

      • Eugene K

        “It works because you want to believe it.” lol Another interesting assumption, but are you saying that someone’s believe is actually causing changes in E-meter reads? Hey, I think you are making progress :)

        Forget Self-Analysis. How about Dianetic Book One auditing without an E-meter? E-meter helps to locate specific charges that otherwise would have been impossible (or very difficult) to locate without one. It doesn’t mean that someone cannot still look around at things in their mind without using an E-meter.

        • Espiando

          An e-meter is 19th Century technology that can barely function as a lie detector. It doesn’t detect anything except conductance of your palms. It isn’t magical, it isn’t some sort of oogy-boogy space cootie eradicator. It’s a high school electronics project in a not-so-pretty case.

          It belongs back in the 19th Century with over-the-counter heroin.

        • Poison Ivy

          No such thing as a “charge” when it comes to the e-meter, Eugene. It’s measuring a number of physical responses – and yes, it really does detect things like a jump in pulse, sweat, etc. It’s not a “charge.”

          • Eugene K

            Yeah sure… and there is not such think as a human soul. Is that what you wanted to say?

            • kemist

              No, there’s no such thing.

              There is a brain, and there are electro-chemical processes going on inside it.

            • Eugene K

              I’m sorry to hear you have to live with such a view.

            • kemist

              Don’t be.

              I’m pretty happy to be among those able to live without illusions, however comforting they might seem.

              It frees my mind to explore interesting things and see them as they are and not as I wish they were. How the brain works and how it creates consciousness is one of those things.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          No, I am still “Nuts”…. 😉
          And I plan to stay that way.

          Eugene. I always thought that was a nice name.

          And what I am saying about the e-meter, is that a physiological response to an emotion is very common. And yes, the e-meter can pick up those responses.

          It is no more rocket science than smiling when you are happy.

          The e-meter however, is Scientology pseudoscience.

          Now I am enjoying the discourse, but it is a new day and a new happenings here in the bunker.
          Cya later.

          • Eugene K

            Hey, “What’s true for you is true for you.” lol

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              ARC!

    • Mr. Sovereign

      have you seen the inside of an e-meter? i have….cheap components anyone can buy for $40 at an electronics store….religious artefact? gimme a break……

      • Eugene K

        I said nothing about how it is made or how much is charged for it. That’s a separate subject.

        • kemist

          Why should it be a separate subject?

          When you use a instrument to measure something, you must have an idea of

          1) How it works

          2) What it is exactly that it measures

          3) Its sensitivity (the smallest variation in measured quantity it can detect)

          4) Its precision (the uncertainty on the measurement, there is always one, and manufacturers who tells you otherwise are called liars)

          For that you have to have an idea of the components inside it.

          If you don’t have those, whatever you have to say about what it does is 100% pure baloney.

          The components of an e-meter are those of a Wheatstone bridge. It measures what a Wheatstone bridge can measure, that is, electrical tension, and it does so with a Wheatstone bridge’s sensitivity, which is none too impressive, and certainly not on par with medical devices designed to measure physiological currents.

          • Eugene K

            Good points.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              See! You can do it Eugene!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              So glad you acked that!
              And thank you kemist…well, for being a kemist…and also for your practical offering.

            • Eugene K

              It makes good technical sense. Perhaps there is a reason why there are different versions of an E-meter now outside of the Church especially when it comes to digital versions.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Really? tell me more?…, seriously?
              I always was wondering when the analog (COS) would acknowledge the digital (reality). 😉

              I am glad you came here, Gene.
              Nice to have you. Really :-)

            • Eugene K

              Ok, Bury,

              The best thing I came across so far is this digital meter here:
              http://www.psychemeter.com/

              It only works with tablets and the reason why is stated under “Does it work on PCs?” link (see menu to the left).

              There is one that actually works with Windows, but due to the reasons stated in the website above, I would think that it is substantially inferior in performance:
              http://theta-meter.com/

              There is some random stuff on here – you’d have to pick out the digital ones:
              http://www.freezoneearth.org/allmeters/index.htm

              And this I found to be an excellent analysis on auditing over Skype which feeds into the logic for E-meters as well in terms of the “vias” that the signal has to go through:
              http://ahgrasshopper.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/internet-auditing/

            • DeElizabethan

              How many points do you get for this one? Doing Great Dissemination Eugene!

            • Eugene K

              This sentence makes me wonder whether you have ANY reality of how things work at the Church. I just provided websites to someone in response to their questions above for e-meters not approved by the Church and a link to a Freezone website out of all other things which is probably categorized as a suppressive or squirrel group at CofS. So what “dissemination” are we talking about here, unless of course you are referring to dissemination of information about Scientology in general.

            • DeElizabethan

              I’m replying to your majority of comments that promote scientology and basically trying to influence others with this blah blah. I spend 13 years with Scio and 4 of them with GO, know enough to spot you, in my opinion. There are not any FZ or indie’s who cares that much of what others think and go about their business. But you are important here on the Bunker to handle or squash any entheta through supposedly education of the subject IMO. Similar to proselytizing.

            • Eugene K

              I’m still learning about a lot of what’s going on with Scientology. I was monitoring Tony’s blog to keep up with updates on the law suits. Then, I saw Jefferson’s analysis… and I was like “wait a minute… I need to say something here…”

            • Eugene K

              ooaah… Ok. I’ll try to look for the links where these new e-meters are sold and discussed…

        • Mr. Sovereign

          and holding the cans in one hand during “solo auditing”? Makes a ridiculous exercise even more ridiculous……lol

    • Snippy_X

      Mr. Eugene,
      Please talk about radiation and the purif again. I love it when LRH talks about trapped photons.

      • Espiando

        Please, let him. I’m in the mood to eviscerate someone.

    • Poison Ivy

      “And if anyone on the Bunker team actually EXPERIENCED an auditing session, they would know that every session starts with some preparations which can include putting lotion on your hands and/or wiping them with a napkin to ensure better connectivity through the cans.”

      Sigh. Dear Eugene, there are well over a dozen ex-Scientologists on the Bunker who have experienced myriad auditing sessions. As I explained to you yesterday, Claire Headley was one of the most highly regarded auditors at all of INT. Please stop insulting their years and years of experience. Claire was raised in the church, and certainly has many more hours on the e-meter than you, as both auditor and pc.

      And quoting from a 1968 manual about 1950’s technology is not going to get you anywhere with the highly educated people on this blog.

      Granted, there is still much discussion on how the e-meter works and how well it works. Many non-Scientologist experts believe it works along the lines of a primitive bio-feedback device. However, this is what LRH said about the e-meter:

      “The E-meter is never wrong. It sees all; it knows all. It tells everything.
      — L. Ron Hubbard”

      There is absolutely no way that the e-meter reads thoughts. However, Scientologists are trained to fear this as a reality. After all, Ron was never wrong!

      Modern lie-detectors are thousands of times more sensitive than e-meters. And even they are not admitted in a court of law. There are too many variables.

      Why don’t you read a little bit more about the e-meter, from real scientists – including former Scientologists?

      “Does the E-meter really show what a person is thinking? Can you “see a thought”?

      No. The meter simply shows whether your body is experiencing a change in stress level. It doesn’t show whether you’re telling the truth or lying, and it doesn’t reveal what you’re thinking about.
      The meter measures changes in the body’s electrical resistance. These changes are caused by chemicals in the blood, such as adrenalin, and by nerve signals. Both of these are, to some extent, under your concious control – you can intentionally calm yourself down or get yourself worked up. While the meter may correctly show whether a question or directive makes you feel stressed, it doesn’t show the nature of that stress (whether it’s fear, guilt, anger, or something else). It’s possible to fool the meter by thinking pleasant thoughts or even by squeezing the cans.”

      http://www.skeptictank.org/gen2/gen00050.htm

      http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/

      http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/biophysics.html

      How about this article, written by an ex-Scientologist who believes, like you, that the e-meter “works”? *Be sure to read the informed commentary and discussion below the article, as well. http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/2010/06/scientology-e-meter.html

      And finally,thank you for proving Paulette Cooper right again:

      “Just remember that you cannot argue your position with the Scientologists. They claim that the E-meter registers the thetan, which they believe may have an electrical voltage, and since no non-Scientologist has ever seen a thetan, much less checked it for electricity, how can anyone possibly disprove this theory?” – Paulette Cooper, “The Scandal of Scientology”

      • Eugene K

        I am quite amazed by the utter prevalence and insistence on some narrow stereotypes regarding “Scientologist” here. I think you are as much departed from reality as you claim Ron Hubbard or Scientologists to be, maybe even worse. The sad part is that you think that it is going to “get me” somehow… lol

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Eugene, Does LRH shed any light on compassion or empathy?

          • Mr. Sovereign

            I can’t find any references on that Sir H TC B VIII, but he did shed light on other mysteries like….”NOT smoking enough, causes lung cancer…”

          • Eugene K

            Yes. There is an essay called “What is Greatness.” You can listen to its narration by a historical Scientology figure here. I hope you enjoy it:
            http://vimeo.com/76664243

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Thank you, Euguen, for the link to Yvonne Gillham Jentzsch’s reading of LRH’s essay on “What is Greatness.”

              There are a few pearls in this. For example: “Happiness and strength endure only in the absence of hate. To hate alone is the road to disaster. To love is the road to strength. To love in spite of all is the secret of greatness.” Nice sentiments, but largely “deepities.”

              Do you agree with everything in this essay, particularly LRH’s stance on forgiveness: That forgiveness is un-saintly and there is no reason to except it?

              I assume that you really believe in this quote, because it captures how you come across: “Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant beside the ability not to change because of provocation or demands to do so.”

              Is that a rule that you live by Eugene ?

            • Eugene K

              No comment.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Ok. I noticed that Yvnonne Gillham Jentzsch has a very pleasant voice. I’ve heard she
              was a lovely person, too. She must have been a devoted Scientologist. When you were in Los Angeles, did you ever have the chance to meet her?

            • Eugene K

              Maybe in my past life :). From what I just gathered she passed away in 1978. I came out to Los Angeles in 2008.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I know what you mean by “my past life,” I’ve got one of those, too! ;-).
              Wait, on second thought, you might mean A LOT more than what I mean!!! :-)

            • Eugene K

              :)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Many of the exes who knew her,…just loved her. I think I would have liked to have met her.
              In fact, I do not recall one ex on here (or anywhere) that I can recall, say anything even remotely negative about her.
              That is pretty cool. Because everyone has some faults.
              Nice.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I am not sure what you are talking about, Eugene, but have you not made a few assumptions about me as well? Why don’t we try, as best we can, to base our discussion on what we have in evidence, which are the statements, ideas, and claims that we are making (and directing/linking each other to) in this verbal medium (as limited as that may be)?
              Please, I am interested in your commentary on the LRH essay that you sent me (which was read by such a historical Scientology figure). Do you not have any observations or thoughts about what the essay says about compassion and empathy, love and forgiveness?

            • Eugene K

              Ok. I can make a comment or two. His statement about “not changing” is simply saying that one does not react with hatred toward the insanities of others. And “no forgiveness” in the context of this essay obviously does not mean harboring hatred toward others for the things they may have done to you. I think in order to understand what Ron meant by “no forgiveness” one needs to be clear on the act of “forgiving.”

              To forgive means to “stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.”
              http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/forgive

              So if you did not feel hate or resentment to begin with, then there is really nothing to “forgive.”

              As far as “forgiveness” in a more “religious” sense such as forgiveness of your “sins” as in Christianity, then my view is that there is no human being with that sort of authority over another human being to be somehow “forgiving” that person’s “sins.” This of course can be a source of lengthy arguments, but that’s my view. If someone for example is feeling guilty or regretful for something they’ve done, then they have to somehow find a way to address that in a way that it stops bothering them. And there could be more than one reason for someone feeling “guilty.” That’s one of the ares that Scientology auditing is designed to address.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Eugene, I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I agree with much it, particularly that no human being has the authority to forgive a person of their “sins,” especially their “sins” against a general principle or another person. I can also see how the tech would be effective in alleviating the negative emotional states of guilt, regret, hate, and resentment. But your comment “So if you did not feel hate or resentment to begin with, then there is really nothing to ‘forgive’” gives me pause. That statement implies that it is better to not even experience a normal human emotional reaction “to begin with.” That is my big concern with the tech, which seems to start with TR 0 and bull baiting. It seems like the tech trains you to ignore and NOT have normal emotional reactions, to disassociate from
              your emotions, rather than to experience your emotions and THEN learn how to best cope with them. Such an approach becomes especially problematic when it comes to emotions such as compassion, that is, mercy, which LRH really seems to dismiss. You may not agree with me on this, but can you see why I think that this could be a negative side effect of the tech, Eugene? Feel free to tell me why I might be wrong (as if I needed to tell you THAT!).

            • Eugene K

              Sir Hemet, I don’t necessarily agree with the way things have been implemented in an “on staff” environment. If someone is experiencing emotion, they are experiencing an emotion. People’s emotions should not be systematically inhibited under “no case” or “no HE&R” (human emotion and reaction) [I hope you know what I’m talking about], but I believe that is also something that started out as a form of disciplined and professional conduct while on staff (which is really no different in any professional organization) and morphed into tools of suppression of any valid upset and/or disagreement that may come accompanied with non-cheering emotions, and instead enforce an emotion of “cheer” to any con that Miscavige has going at the Church.

              It was a very plain observation for me of how parishioners’ (and staff’s) emotions are continuously being manipulated in various campaigns and again I thought that there was something terribly wrong with that and how it was not Scientology as I understand it. It was one of the many things that I wondered how come Scientologists themselves do not see that in light of what they learn in Scientology materials.

              “What is Greatness” is an ideal, it is not a tool to make others wrong nor it is an excuse to do nothing when some wrong that should be prevented is occurring. The way I apply it is the following: when I experience hatred or other form of “mus-emotion” at something, I trying to address that feeling as opposed to blaming and trying to address the thing that supposedly had caused it.

              It is not always easy, since some people have it as their “make wrong” mechanism to drive others into guilt or anger or some other low-tone state so that they can rise above that person and be like “See, I made you crack. I made you wrong…” in a sort of unannounced way. That is something that also needs to be understood, and something that again comes under that principle that when one understands another’s behavior, then one does not fall into hatred because of it.

              On a larger note and something that perhaps feeds into this entire subject of upsets with Scientology is that there is a world difference between looking at and doing Scientology on VOLUNTARY basis and when it is authoritatively forced down on you especially in a “make-wrong” fashion. This is the one fact that gets people very upset, but then they come out and blame LRH, blame some ethics formula, blame an E-meter or whatever else and those things are the things that were used by OTHER PEOPLE to make someone wrong. And of course down on the chain of “contagion of aberration” it becomes like a culture of people blaming each other and using all these thing as “make-wrongs” on each other.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Another thoughtful reply, which I very much appreciate. Once I translate the esoteric verbiage of scientology into common parlance, I find that I agree with you almost entirely.
              Eugene, I am beginning to realize that you are much more of a maverick than people here realize and give you credit for. But it is also clear why they don’t. I’m curious whether you have any hypotheses about what it is that you bring to the table that makes people react to so strongly to you. My guess is that it does not matter to you, but I just thought I would ask.

              Regardless, on to more substantive issues, which alas, I must address in a subsequent post, since my iPad is acting all hinky.

            • Eugene K

              My guess is that my statements may cut through a web of “fixed ideas” that a lot of people have agreed to on here and so it ruffles some feathers. That’s one; two is that the folks who have spent a considerable amount of time spreading hatred against Scientology and Scientologists have undoubtadly stocked up on some overts (harmful acts) against the subject and the persons representing it. Accumulation of overts make people blind, it makes them stupid, and it makes them urge to reduce the size of their overts by denigrading the target.

              So you see someone like me showing up expressing some approval of Scientology, you suddenly have all kinds of people jump on me with degrading remarks… not realizing that I’m sitting there on the other end with a grin across my face and a whole a lot of understanding of what they are trying to do. See, someone with a lot of overts against Scientology and Scientologists better not come to terms that either of those things are or can be good because that would immediately flush to the surface all the “justified” acts that one has committed as in fact bad deeds and that could indeed be a tremendous weight depending on how much of it one has accumulated.

              This is one of the behavioral mechanisms that is described in Scientology, and it makes a lot of sense in my view. BUT the existence of such logic in Scientology tech has also given some clever people a powerful tool for suppression and manipulation of others. That is: you observe something wrong at the Church or call out Miscavige on some b.s. for example. You complain about it, and instead of taking your OBSERVATION for what it is, it is recategorized as “natter” and “criticism” as a sign of you having stocked up on overts and then you are basically ordered “sec checks” (confessionals) which is liable to drive one down the tone scale into “propitiation” agreeing to make “amends” in additon to the sec checks… etc. And then people like this come out and blame Hubbard for writing out the logic for the overts mechanism to begin with where the problem may not be with the logic itself but with the way it has been used in the organization in a suppressive fashion to the detriment of the people that were in fact trying to get some ethics in as recently with Leah trying to get ethics in on Miscavige.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I think I got most of that, but you lost me at the end with that run on sentence (feel free to edit it for clarity and those few typos, I do it all the time because I make so many). Otherwise that’s a pretty good description of how you think about things, and I appreciate you taking the time to share it. Its sounds like you give the benefit of the doubt LRH’s tech and not to anyone who has criticisms of it. While I can see what you mean about getting jumped on when you point out positive things about tech, which would make just about anyone defensive, it’s seems like you do not take seriously anyone’s negative experience and dismiss even the possibility that someone might have a legitimate critical point. Again, I think I can see what you mean about the logic of overts, but does that mean that there can be absolutely no valid criticism? For example, earlier I brought up one potential negative aspect of LRH’s ideas and logic as exemplified in the ‘what is greatness?’ essay, which you clarified to some degree, but you did not respond to whether there might be a problem with his stance on compassion and mercy. It seems to me that there is a fair critical point here, because what LRH implied is that it is more important to stand your ground and not allow your emotions to be swayed in instances when mercy or compassion is the decent, ethical, and humane response. I am interested in your perspective on this.

              This has been a very good exchange and I would enjoy hearing your perspective on several other topics, but I don’t have the time now and tomorrow is gong to be a full day so it might be a bit before I can post again at length, but again I look forward to further correspondence.

            • Eugene K

              This is not true that I “dismiss even the possibility that someone might have a legitimate critical point.” I just do not come across that many LEGITIMATE critical points. Most criticism comes in the form of personal attacks and some superficial labels like “it’s all hypnosis” or Hubbard made it all up or something. Most criticism comes in the form of invalidation without offering any viable alternative explanation or clear methodology. Then we have critical points that appear legitimate like on Marty Rathbun’s blog or in
              discussion with Claire Headley here, but when you dig into it, you find flaws in their own representation of what Scientology is as opposed to what can be gathered from Ron Hubbard’s writings and lectures. One of the only legitimate critical points I have come across so far is what I read in TROM (the resolution of the mind) – you can google it – when someone questioned some of Hubbard’s basic assumptions in Dianetics and developed his own methodology with a new assumption.

              I think your evaluations with respect to “What is Greatness” is a great example of what I would deem as invalid or flawed criticism since it is unclear to me how you arrived at a “problem with his stance on compassion and mercy” in this essay when it starts with: “The hardest task one can have is to continue to love one’s fellows despite all reasons he should not. And the true sign of sanity and greatness is to so continue.”

              Perhaps going over a written version could help: http://scientolipedia.org/info/What_Is_Greatness

              On “it seems like you do not take seriously anyone’s negative experience” – it depends on what you mean by “take seriously.” I definitely do take other peoples’ accounts into consideration, and I come to my own conclusions which may be different from yours or anyone else’s on this blog.

              And with respect to my “run on sentences,” I wonder if you are clear on all the Scientology-related terminology that I use like the “tone scale,” “down tone,” sec checks, etc.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Thanks Eugene. Good to know that you do not dismiss the even the possibility that someone might have a legitimate criticism. It seemed like it to me at times, which is why I suggested that you demonstrate some form of acknowledgment of another person’s perception or perspective, which is possible to do without agreeing with their conclusion, or even when their perception is distorted. I think that it is a helpful communication skill, especially (and maybe even only) if the empathy is accurate.

              I’m short on time, so I will have to get back to you regarding LRH’s observations on mercy. You brought up an excellent point, and I am eager to respond to it. I also look forward to checking out TROM. I completely agree that the Scientology-related terminology gets in the way of my understanding of your points, but again, once I am able to translate them into more common and widely used terms (i.e., the OED), the ideas that you are communicating are quite insightful. I would enjoy hearing your commentary on today’s post. I’ll respond more later.

            • Eugene K

              Ok. I commented on the new post this morning so I guess that makes it late in light of the “daily” rule here. I probably won’t be commenting that much moving forward since I usually need more time to respond to something especially when it requires a deeper look. And mentality of the general audience here leaves something to be desired, in my view.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hi Eugene, I’ll check out your post. I see that you were grinning a fair amount yesterday 😉
              I usually need more time to provide thoughtful answers too. And I have more than a full time job, which makes it quite difficult for me to respond frequently, although I do check in daily to watch the slow train wreck that is the thoroughly harmful and suppressive Cos. I’ll get back to you later.

            • Eugene K

              Yeah, “grinning” was more of an expression. It’s never that pleasant to be receiving “flows” of that nature, but hopefully if you looked over that dialog you have gleaned into the sort of oppressive mentality that can actually take place on Church lines. I have ran into it there more than a few times right along side with what I thought were some of the best people that I met. It was always a wonder to me how such characters can co-exist and operate in the same environment.

              Let me know if you have any questions on my response. It’s quite lengthy and includes even more special terms.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hi Eugene, I’ve had a very full and active weekend, and I have barely been able to check in and read the recent posts. Re: the “What is Greatness” essay, thanks for the link. I see that you are correct regarding my criticism about compassion and mercy. Based on the quote you referenced, it is flawed (although, etymologically speaking, I don’t think that it is ‘invalid,’ just weak, and therefore flawed). You could have even referenced other statements in the essay, all of which are very similar to the moral principle of “the golden rule” and the “turn the other cheek” notion of how to react when one has been slighted. I think that I mistakenly believed that LRH never said anything about compassion, probably because of all the things I have read about the lack of mercy and compassion that LRH demonstrated to numerous people over the course of his life, especially to his 3 wives, all of his children, and a lot of people in Scientology (e.g., Yvonne Gillham Jentzsch, I followed the ‘what is greatness’ link you sent me to her story. Both LRH and the tech resulted in a lot of horrible circumstances for her, especially the way she was neglected and mistreated for her brain tumor and the way her family was neglected and misinformed and mistreated). I also read the commentary below the essay by Chuck Beatty, who mentioned a lot of contradictions in LRHs writings. BUT, as you pointed out, the essay is clear regarding his stance on love, which is a noble one.
              Upon reading the entire essay, here is what stood out to me the most:

              “A fully trained Scientologist is in a far better position to understand than a partly trained one. For the Scientologist who really knows…can understand why others do what they do and so knowing, does not become baffled or dismayed by small defeats. To that degree, true greatness depends on total wisdom. They act as they do because they are what they are—trapped beings, crushed beneath an intolerable burden. And if they have gone mad for it and command the devastation of whole nations in errors of explanation, still one can understand and can understand as well the extent of their madness. Why should one change and begin to hate just because others have lost themselves and their own destinies are too cruel for them to face.”

              The clear implication of the passage above is that LRH’s formulation of Scientology is The Best Way and indeed The Only Way to understand human nature and behavior, and anyone who does not agree with LRH is therefore inferior, and not even worthy of angry or hated, only pity. Of course, virtually all major religions are guilty of the same thing, often to an even worse degree. It’s classic in-group/out-group behavior that our species falls prey to, as evidenced by the history of both religious and political warfare, and even the behavior of people on this blog. We all fall prey to in-group/out-group behavior. It is on a continuum from healthy and benign competition on one end, to enslavement and slaughter on the other. The evidence suggests that the in-out group behavior on this blog is incredibly benign, and while feelings do get hurt, I would argue that the overall net effect of this blog in the real world is much more positive than negative. The opposite is true for the COS, in large part because of the way LRH set it up. Not as bad relative to the history of the Abrahamic monotheisms (and even their current behavior), but horrible nonetheless. Eugene, am I in error to conclude that 1). LRH believed that he had The Only Workable solution for our human condition, and that; 2). such a belief is therefore inherent to the technology?

              I checked out Dennis Steven’s TROM and could not find the LRH criticism that you referenced. TROM looks to be a fairly direct spin off of LRH, but I must acknowledge that I did not spend enough time on it. There is some discussion about it on the ex-scientology website. Do you ever lurk there? I do occasionally, but not that often. Did you ever read “The Truth Rundown”? I see a lot of exes talking about it.
              Hope you are well!

            • DeElizabethan

              That was excellent, thank you.

            • Eugene K

              Sir Hemet, the passage you quoted is quite correct in my view. I have indeed gained very good understanding of the conditions of human behavior when I plowed my way through the materials of D&S. Maybe, it isn’t perfect but it is the most comprehensive and yet simple explanation I found on the mechanisms behind the human mind and human spirit. I just don’t quite understand how it could have gone so wrong in the organization. And yes, I have heard a great deal of criticism and invalidations, but I am yet to see anyone demonstrate to me a better explanation and better, more effective methodology than what has been worked out in Scientology. I noticed quite a good number of people blame the state of the organization on LRH and the “tech,” but I see it as far departed from both as almost unrecognizable. What else can I say? I think I will be phasing out of this blog since I do not see any point of continuing on here for myself.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hate to see you go, Eugene, and I hope you don’t as I was enjoying our dialog. But I can understand why you would, because you have taken a beating here trying to simply clarify a few topics on LRH’s approach and the benefit that you have derived from practicing his tech. As you know, the people here are completely against LRH and Scientology, largely because (i.e., the biggest piece of the pie, IMO) the balance of most people’s experience (who have been in and out of the church and practiced its tech, or have had family members who have) has been much more negative than positive. I know that you have had a lot of wins with the tech, but I think that puts you in a minority, which is one of the reasons that I think that you are a true maverick. It sounds like you were a maverick in the church, and that you came here and did your best to make a few valid points about LHR makes you a maverick here as well. You might not be very good at sizing up your audience, but you a maverick nonetheless. And this place needs mavericks like you!
              I like to think that I have read much more than the average person in the brain sciences and the mechanisms of the human mind and I have also read a fair amount about the various approaches to the human spirit (primarily through mindful breathing/meditation practices). But as you know, I have not read nearly as much LRH as you. Now, I have to admit to one of my biases (which is also a smaller piece of the pie that I referenced above). One of the cognitive biases that we all suffer from is “the confirmation bias” in which we tend to seek out only information that confirms what we already believe and overlook or quickly dismiss information that contradicts our beliefs. It is a difficult thing to control. I must admit to my own confirmation bias against LRH, which you have disabused me of (but only slightly!), so I have reading more LRH (but gosh, it sure is hard to get past so much of what he claimed he had ‘discovered’ in Dianetics MSMH!). I hope that you are also able to manage your own confirmation bias, and continue reading, and if you do keep reading about other approaches to understanding the human man and human spirit, you will find other valid, and maybe even more cogent explanations. One thing that I do appreciate from LRH, is that, what’s true for you is what’s true for you! I hope you do have the time and patience to respond to my most recent posts, Eugene. But if not, good luck to you in your journeys!

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              (Hey Eugene, I’m reposting what I said earlier with a few additions. I was trying to edit it on my iPhone using the control panel at the Disqus website and my fat fingers somehow deleted my post (although I can still see it on my desktop posted under a guest, but not with my iPhone, weird. Maybe my post went whole-track :-).

              Hate to see you go, Eugene, and I hope you don’t, as I was enjoying our dialog. But I can understand why you would, because you have taken a beating here trying to simply clarify a few esoteric topics on LRH’s approach and the benefit that you have derived from practicing his tech. As you know, the people here are completely against LRH and Scientology, largely because (i.e., the biggest piece of the pie, IMO) the balance of most people’s experience (who have been in and out of the church and practiced its tech, or have had family members who have) has been much more negative than positive. I know that you have had a lot of wins with the tech, but I think that puts you in a minority, which is one of the reasons that I think that you are a true maverick. It sounds like you
              were a maverick in the church, and that you came to the bunker and did your best to make a few valid points about LHR makes you a maverick here as well. You might not be very good at sizing up your audience, but you’re a maverick nonetheless. And this place needs mavericks like you!

              I like to think that I have read much more than the average person in the brain sciences and the mechanisms of the human mind. I have also read a fair amount about the various approaches to the human spirit. My current spiritual practive is primarily mindful breathing/meditation practices. But as you know, I have not read nearly as much LRH as you. Now, I have to admit to one of my biases (which is also a smaller piece of the pie that I referenced above). One of the cognitive biases that we all suffer from is “the confirmation bias” in which we tend to seek out only information that confirms what we already believe and overlook or quickly dismiss information that contradicts our beliefs. It is a difficult thing to control. I must admit to my own confirmation bias against LRH, which you have disabused me of (but only slightly!), so I have been reading more LRH
              (but gosh, my empirical training and eduction sure makes it hard to get past so much of what he claimed he had ‘discovered’ in Dianetics MSMH!). I hope that you are also able to manage your own confirmation bias, and continue reading. I think that if you do keep reading about other approaches to understanding the human mind and the human spirit, you will find other valid, and maybe even more cogent, explanations.

              I initially said that one of the things that I appreciate from LRH is the idea that what’s true for you is what’s true for you. But on second thought, I don’t think that this is always true, because we are so prone to error due to our built in cognitive biases. I am saddened that you find that quote from LRH to be correct, because it is in the same vein of the primary
              evil embedded in the major religions: that since we have god on OUR side, our way is The Only Way. If you really believe that quote, then you apparently believe that, because you have studied LRH, you have THE Answer for everyone and that you know what everyone needs (here is a another current example of this way of thinking, which is FAR worse than Scientology and even what DM has done to it: http://youtu.be/bV710c1dgpU). As a maverick and apparently quite an independent thinker, and someone who experienced it here on this blog, I am surprised that you think that a statement that devalues other people’s independence of thought is correct (because agreement with that statement necessarily means that you think that someone else’s experiences, education, and ways of thinking are so inferior that they are unworthy of consideration). I really don’t think that is true for you, but maybe it is.

              Again, my own experience, especially the training and education that I have had in the neurosciences, has opened me up to a wonderfully wide array of approaches to understanding how the brain and the mind work, and how it underlies our spiritual experiences (the latter of which, BTW, is worthy in its own right of deep exploration and will never be explained away by science). I can only hope that you can take what you have learned from the writings and lectures of LRH and expand that knowledge by educating yourself on the nature of empiricism and what has been learned about the brain and the mind since LRH’s passing. It really is fascinating. If you are interested, here is the kind of stuff that I find interesting and most persuasive. It is lecture from Steven Pinker, who is on the cutting edge of scholarship on how the mind works: http://youtu.be/lkSNDN871TQ. This is a college freshman lecture, so it might be fairly elementary for you, but if you are inclined, you can try any of his other books or lectures. I previously sent you a video of Dan Dennett, which I cannot recommend highly enough, especially his most recent book on “Tools for Thinking.” On the spiritual side, my thinking was especially transformed by reading and listening to the lectures of Joseph Campbell. His interviews by Bill Moyers are on YouTube. They’re great! I still intend to explore TROM more deeply, and I am very interested in any other LRH essays, and especially any of his lectures, that you found most fascinating, interesting, and persuasive.

              Eugene, I hope you do have the time and patience to respond to my recent posts. But if not, good luck to you in your journeys!

            • DeElizabethan

              I see, you’re here to educate, Or to proselytize?

            • Eugene K

              Well, if you look at my comment history, I started my commenting with pointing out some flaws in Jefferson’s representation of “the ethics formula.” Since I studied a great bulk of D&S materials, I urged to say something in subject’s defense. That’s all. Then, it got more involved with all the replies I started getting and so the scope of my communication grew through the discussion with different people on here.

            • DeElizabethan

              Like he didn’t study them thoroughly. Looking for things to pick on like flaws? Just another indicator of where you’re coming from. I may have missed your compliments or agreements with him and sorry if that’s true.

            • Eugene K

              No. I do not look for “things to pick on.” This is something that I noticed to be a common theme here. I simply spent a great deal of sorting through LRH’s materials including comparing the new to the originals from the 70’s. So when I see someone stating some nonsense, it just stands out to me as I can recall various passages in books and lectures and bulletins to point that out as flawed analysis.

            • DeElizabethan

              So again ,who are you to point out nonsense and who cares about all the nonsensical things Ron himself authored. Stick around here as most people know more, but care less than you do. Are you the MAA or Qual here self appointed? By knocking what someone knew from when they studied it lots more than you did back then. I don’t think there is anyone here who cares about the accuracy of a qoute or line from LWrong. We are looking at a bigger picture here of the abuses and actions of the cherch not it’s beliefs. People here have freedom and the right to ridicule them and when you get out into the world better and read more you will understand. Possible you won’t worry so much either. So again, who are you really and your purpose?

            • Eugene K

              “a self-appointed MAA” – that’s the role that you seem to play. How about you just move along and let me express my own opinion or are you a moderator here of some sort that is going to ban me for an alternative viewpoint or expressing disagreements? Who are YOU to ask me all these questions?

            • DeElizabethan

              I give my opinion, you spout lrh crap as most of us know it here. It’s clear that you have an agenda and it doesn’t seem to be making friends, rather making people wrong and promoting lrh’s writing and scio crap. You may not think it’s crap but most do here and I can speak for many. You seem very unrealistic to me and it just doesn’t make common sense that you are neither a scio or cherch member.

              How about you just move along and play with the big boys on a current thread like others do? I asked YOU first! Apparently you use the tech to handle and I’m aware of that. Now go and play on current thread.

              Oh ya, I don’t have the fuckin’ rank, eh?

            • Eugene K

              Yeah, I can see why someone like you would be “playing games” here. I’m kind of too busy for that. You know some people actually have real jobs and engage in real production.

            • DeElizabethan

              Sorry, bit you speak right out a scientology book and training. I’m so happy that i and others got our minds out of the bubble and can think and talk for ourselves. IMO or 2 cents dear one.

            • Eugene K

              “… talk for ourselves” which is…? Have you found more specific explanations behind various manifestations of human behavior? Please, provide alternatives if you can outside of just invalidation. Plus, I am in no “bubble” and have never been in a “bubble.” I am an educated person who found Scientology on the search for some knowledge on the subject of the mind and spirit.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      Hi Eugene K(er), I’ve been reading your posts, and is seems that you may be getting a little better at acknowledging a few minor points that other people make. I even see perhaps a few attempts to show a sense of humor, or at least share a laugh about a tiny area agreement with another person. Nice to see you try and make a connection with another human being. Still nothing substantive, but at least you appear to be moving in the right direction. Again, to be taken seriously, what you need to be able to demonstrate is the capacity for acknowledging and understanding someone else’s negative experience as a result of AT LEAST the COS (of which you claim NOT be a member, correct?). I can tell that your critical thinking skills and empathetic abilities are still much too impaired by LRH’s tech to acknowledge even a tiny negative aspect of the tech, which so many people here have described experiencing. What is most disturbing is that you dismiss other people’s experience and then blame them for the harm that they suffer because of LRH and the COS. Especially despicable that you did that with Lori Hodgson.

      Eugene, seriously, what does LRH say about compassion and empathy? And where is that website that you are going to announce?

      • AintMizBahavin

        OK i thought maybe i was missing something but i got the same instinctive assessment from Eugene k. which to me says he is still a member of cos and sent here to troll and cause trouble/.. unfortunately for him to many here have dealt with to much negativity from and with cos and cob to fall victim to his trolling. now i am truly not a ex member of cos i explained that from the moment i came here and joined up. im someone who has no experience with the cos at all except what i have read and also Thanks to the Bunker, clambake, Rinder, Rathburn and ex cos kids i was able to talk my god daughter out of being caught up in their cult…

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Hi Amb, based on all of his posts, I’m starting to think that he is not a troll. And CONGRATULATIONS on keeping your god daughter out of their clutches!

        • Eugene K

          Now, for all of the folks that come up with wild theories about how I may be someone sent from the Church, have many of you actually come into contact with someone here that could definitely be proven to be from the Church? I’m just wondering, because I know for a fact that Church members are discouraged and disciplined for trying look at anything remotely critical of the organization to say nothing of participating in a discussion. And with the sort of information that this blog has been providing I HIGHLY doubt someone would be encouraged to come here if they have gone through a phase of doubt to begin with and so had disciplinary measured leveled against them.

          • DeElizabethan

            Have you tried this dissemination on Marty’s or Mike’s blog yet? I’m sure the cherch knows who to put here. They are pretty devious and we know how insidious they can be.

            • Eugene K

              “devious” really? That describes plenty of people in this place. Have you really looked around, even just at some of the avatars?

            • DeElizabethan

              Avatars, really, means nothing. Who are you really? No picture! You’ve been trained that no one here will win. Although you have some interested people grant you a lot of beingness and they try to be understanding, but am sure they know more than you about the subject and how it fits into the real world, and are kinder than me.

            • Eugene K

              Yeah, invalidation of another’s knowingness is a very common thread I observed among Scientologists (including “corporate,” indie, ex, and even anti-). Didn’t you say you were thinking for yourself now?

            • DeElizabethan

              Right. I also know how I was taught to think and how I thought while under the influence and can spot it easily. One needs an open mind to learn new ways and if one wants to assimilate into other cultures, in a broader sense. One needs to let go of absolutes in language and thinking. Example: Scio mind warp and language.

              Edit: plus who are your really?

            • Eugene K

              Elizabeth, give me a break. I was into Eastern thought and looking for some tech on how to reach “enlightenment” and things like that since I was 13. I think of Scientology as just some amazing resource. And no one told me how to think. I have an Accounting major with background in computer science which was all about documentation, applying logic to solving problems, analyzing and organizing large amounts of information, verifying reality of something by looking through a paper trail of source documents… etc.

            • DeElizabethan

              OK, will give you a break and you’re educated, a plus. I too looked into Eastern religion and thought. it far surpasses the controlling of scio tech. So why defend and promote scio, which is what it sounds like to me. Let others believe what they like and they do know the bad side of scio better than most. So if there is any good, good for you but each will find what they need without you promoting a negative cult here. So do your own thing but as you see, some don’t want to participate and why not just allow others to have their opinions.

            • DeElizabethan

              Remember this blog is not a blog looking for cults to join but are in union with the truth exposed about a particular cult, mainly.

            • Eugene K

              Yes, that’s why the truth of what Ron Hubbard actually wrote gets distorted to fit an agenda…

            • DeElizabethan

              LRon, when you LOOK enough you will find that he distorted or contradicted almost everything he wrote. It is we the public who have found the contradictions, also the indies and exes.

            • Eugene K

              If such is the case, then it should be brought up in a thorough analysis citing exact passages from his writings and/or lectures… etc.

              Elizabeth, you seem to be forgetting where you are. You’re sure you really out of the “cult” as you say? This is not a session. You are not still some enforcer in a position of authority. Maybe, a locational would help. Just a suggestion :)

            • Eugene K

              You seem to be threatened…

            • DeElizabethan

              Using that ol’ scio stuff again, huh?

            • Eugene K

              I was actually thinking the same about you….

    • noseinabk

      *sigh*

      • monkeyknickers

        Okay:

        I don’t have your email but if you have Michael’s please let me know if it’s okay for me to have it.

        I have to thank the fuck out of you.

        • noseinabk

          HAHAHAHA. You just thanked me. My email is Noseinabk2 At gmail.
          I am confused since my tracking is showing only one delivery and a in transit.

    • Guest

      I place more merit in a blood pressure monitor.

      http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-blood-pressure/HI00016

      • Eugene K

        That would probably not work well for auditing purposes.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        As you should!

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      Hey Everybody, here is Eugene’s the Expert Sciontologist website. He claims that he is not in the church, but here is the link that that he previously provided, that lead to his own church-sponsored website: http://www.bonafidescientology.org/index.htm

      • Eugene K

        Yes, because that included text for Axiom 11 that I wanted to provide a reference for. If you google “Scientology Axiom 11,” that’s the first link that comes up…

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          So Eugene, are you in the church, or are you a Proud Squirrel?

          • Eugene K

            Neither

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Ok, not in the Church and not a squirrel. Not an indie or freezoner, either. Right?

            • Eugene K

              You guessed it.

    • monkeyknickers

      But . . . . and I am HONESTLY trying to understand this honey . . . . why can’t results be repeated in a neutral setting? I mean, sure – it complex and needs user savvy. But so does splitting an atom and the results of that can be quantified and reproduced in a way even morons like me can understand. :))

      Why the big secrets you know? Why make it so clandestine?

  • Hunting Lion

    On thing I did learn in cost accounting class is to never base future decision on sunk cost!

  • peakofelephants

    It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: Han shot first.

  • Dave Roberts

    Satanic is the word that comes to mind as I learn more and more about the evil that is Scientology. I’ve only just learned of the connection between LRH and Crowley. Now he’s someone that I DO have some prior knowledge of – the foremost practicing Satanist of his era.

    I read that at one point Crowley decided to attempt to call down Satan for some purpose, probably so that Crowley could gain power and control over people (remind you of some of the practices of Scientology?

  • Suzy

    Does anyone know if CO$ owns 14350 60th St North Suite 7654 in Clearwater? In June I used my real FB to say something on Kirstie’s FB page. My personal page links to my business web page, and I had two fraudulent credit card orders from Clearwater afterwards.