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Blood Brother Ron: Starting Out Life on the Wrong Blackfoot

BuckskinBrigadesIn 1990, author Jon Atack published what is still one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, A Piece of Blue Sky. Atack now has a new edition of the book out, and it reminded us what an encyclopedic resource he is. So join us as we rely on Jon’s expertise to sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

Jon, one of the more memorable parts of the L. Ron Hubbard legend has him becoming a blood brother of the Montana Blackfoot tribe as a small child. We thought this legend was debunked long ago, but something in Lawrence Wright’s book concerns you. What is it?

JON: On page 21, in Wright’s generally excellent Going Clear, we find the claim that Hubbard had studied shamanism:

Throughout his youth, he was fascinated by shamans and magicians. As a boy in Montana, he says, he was made a blood brother to the Blackfoot Indians by an elderly medicine man named Old Tom Madfeathers. Hubbard claims that Old Tom would put on displays of magic by leaping fifteen foot high from a seated position and perching on the top of his teepee. Hubbard observes, “I learned long ago that man has his standards for credulity, and when reality clashes with these, he feels challenged.”

Hold that thought.

There is difficulty in accepting any Hubbard statement, because he was a pathological liar, which is easily demonstrated by the many contradictions between his own accounts of events. For instance, in My Philosophy, written in 1965, Hubbard says that “Blinded with injured optic nerves, and lame with physical injuries to hip and back, at the end of World War II, I faced an almost non-existent future.” Yet, in a 1957 bulletin called “Communication and Isness,” he claimed that he was in Hollywood at the end of July 1945, where he got to try out his judo on some Petty Officers: “Sometime early in 1945 I flunked my overseas examination. Well, I crawled around and felt sorry for myself, and the fact of it was that the Judo instructor there at the hospital brought up the idea that there was a shortage of people in the war — there was. So he kept up my training for me. I think it was July 25th that I went down to Hollywood and three sailors with Petty Officers’ ratings accosted me on the street. They were drunk. They were out to kill officers. And the three of them tied into me. An unbelievable thing happened. One of them turned me around facing him while the second one took a heavy beer bottle to bring it down on my skull. I took the fellow, who brought the beer bottle down, threw him over my head into this fellow, who went down and hit the side of a bumper. The beer bottle hit the pavement, broke the end off, and the other fellow reared up where he had been sitting on the running board of a car, and I put it in his face. That’s what you are trained to do.” An amazing performance for a blind cripple with injured optic nerves! His Navy record supports the second story (though not the bit about the judo). So, when Hubbard says that he was made a blood brother by the Blackfoot, or, indeed, makes any other claim, it should be treated with caution. And, as Hubbard asserted, “Truth is sanity.” Not something he had any time for, if he could get away with a wild story, instead.

What Wright fails to say is that Hubbard embellished his account even further, by stretching our credulity to the limit. Hubbard said that he was four years old when he became a Blackfoot warrior. The Blackfoot People did not create “blood brothers,” actually a Viking tradition unknown among Native Americans until Hollywood came along (some years after Hubbard’s fourth birthday). I spent many happy hours being deposed under oath by Guardian’s Office unindicted co-conspirator Kendrick Moxon, who shoved a letter across the table to prove that Hubbard had been a blood brother. He insisted that the tribal council had approved this, but the letter was actually written by a Scientologist, who was an eighth-blood Blackfoot called Richard Mataisz, who went under the name “Tree Manyfeathers” for the purpose of validating Hubbard’s status, seventy years after the event.

Mataisz admitted that there was no record of Hubbard’s induction into the tribe, and told the Los Angeles Times that he had decided to “make it go right” for Hubbard by concocting this document, which was not approved by the tribal council, or, indeed, anyone save for “Tree Manyfeathers.” The Times article was published as part of its fine June 1990 series. Kendrick Moxon was so disappointed with his interrogation of me that he didn’t even ask me to sign the deposition. He had failed to find a single mistake in my work, which is very gratifying.

In an article called “Search for Research,” published by Scientology in Ron the Writer, issue 1, Hubbard admitted that he learned about the Piegan Blackfoot people at second hand, and that would include Old Tom and all of his shamanic leaping. He also contradicted his Blackfoot stories, in true Ron style, in
“LRH’s autobiographical notes for Peter Tompkins.” Intrigued by this story, I eventually found that when he was two and travelled from Kalispell to Helena, Montana, the train passed through a station in a Blackfoot reservation. Hubbard likely formulated his credulity testing story from some family story about the downtrodden Blackfoot Indians who were begging for booze money when the train stopped.

THE BUNKER: We just skimmed through several volumes of this new RON: THE ENCYCLOPEDIA and all we could find was this one mention, in the volume “L. Ron Hubbard: A Profile”…

By way of a first entrance into a spiritual dimension, he tells of a boyhood friendship with the indigenous Blackfeet Indians in Helena, Montana. Notable among them was a full-fledged tribal medicine man locally known as Old Tom. In what ultimately constituted a rare bond, the six-year-old Ron was both honored with the status of blood brother and instilled with an appreciation of a profoundly distinguished spiritual heritage.

RonSeriesProfile

Oh, the Dan Shermanspeak in these books is unbearable — note how each sentence must begin with an odd adjectival phrase, and never a declarative subject and verb. But we digress. Anyway, there’s also a photo of “Old Tom.” Note that this is not a scan, but our attempt to photograph the image in context, as it is laid out on the page…

OldTom

JON: His feathers do look a little mad… The cult has put “Search for Research” online. It has the explanation of Hubbard’s ‘research’ for his novel Buckskin Brigades, where he says:

“I capped the climax by locating a young chap in Seattle who happens to be a blood brother of the Blackfeet … the result was Buckskin Brigades…” L. Ron Hubbard, “Search for Research,” Ron the Writer.

Which is odd, given that he later assimilated this young man’s blood-brotherhood into his own legend. In his notes, Wright says “A spokesperson for the Blackfeet Nation says that blood-brotherhood is not a part of their tradition.” The only source for the Hubbard story is a statement from Dan Sherman, the official biographer.

THE BUNKER: And official mangler of the English language. Tonight, several thousand Scientologist will be subject to Dan “The Mullet” Sherman torturing subjects and predicates as he recounts episodes in Hubbard’s life during The Birthday Event in Los Angeles. We only wish we had a ticket.

Dan_Sherman

 
—————-

SMERSH Madness: Sowing the Seeds of World Domination!

As we announced on March 1, we’re joining bracket fever with a tournament like no other. It’s up to you to decide who should be named the new SMERSH, the traditional nemesis of Scientology. Cast your vote for who’s doing more to propel the church down its long slide into oblivion!

Continuing with the Sweet Sixteen! We have another tough match.

JonVsOCMB

Jon Atack was a name synonymous with Scientology research because of his excellent 1990 history, A Piece of Blue Sky. But for the longest time, we heard nothing about him. Now, Atack is back with a new edition of his book, and he’s become a regular contributor here at the Bunker. It’s great to have such an encyclopedic resource back in the mix. (Previously: Atack defeated Tom Cruise in the first round.)

Operation Clambake, or Xenu.net, was started by a Norwegian engineer, Andreas Heldal-Lund, in 1996. It quickly became a major nemesis for the church as it hosted vast amounts of damaging information that Scientology wants kept quiet. It’s still a great resource today for researchers. (We’re in the habit of calling it “OCMB,” but we’re asking for a vote on the entire website, not just its message board. Previously: OCMB defeated Lisa Marie Presley in the first round.)

 
Go to our March 1 post for the latest tournament results.

 
——————-

Posted by Tony Ortega on March 23, 2013 at 07:00

 

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  • SFFrog

    Someone on Marty’s blog was insisting that Hubbard had been a college roommate of SI Hayakawa. When presented with evidence that Hayakawa had not gone to Hubbard’s university and was in fact a PhD student while Hubbard was a freshman, they still believed the “reliable source” who had told them this.

    Who needs evidence when you have unsupported LRH statements.

    • John P.

      Actually, it’s even better: right after Dianutty came out, Hayakawa wrote a thoroughly uncomplimentary review titled “Dianetics : From Science-fiction to Fiction-science.” I can’t seem to grab a copy of the paper on line readily, but a review in Cultic Studies in 2004 says, in summarizing Hayakawa’s work, “The result, for Hayakawa, is that any good Dianetics might do is ‘more than offset by the damage it can do with its accompanying pretentious and nonsensical doctrines… The lure of the pseudoscientific vocabulary and promises of dianetics cannot but condemn thousands who are beginning to emerge from scientific illiteracy to a continuation of their susceptibility to work magic and semantic hash.'”

      • richelieu jr

        As ever (and in striking contrast to Hubbard’s verbal loggorhea), Hayakawa gets right to the crux of the matter in a minimum of words…

        One think I think The Master did quite well was touch on the fact that Hubbard was a real case of the right creature at the right time- Standing at the mouth of the cave as people came out of superstition and war into the light of science (scientists were popular heroes! They saved the day inn Hollywood films!), and there was P.T. Hubbard, standing at the mouth of the cave, selling them tix to the brave new scientific world as he led them right down the rabbit hole back into the dark….

        A decade earlier or later and he might have been out of business… Replaced by either Communism, fascism or later by Hippies and peace & love (or his pal and ideological cousin, Manson…)

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Excellent Diagnosis of the Patient (customers/marks/scientologists). Hub’s unethical ethics medicine and his fake military sea org was conjured up out of his imaginary asshat to enforce belief in his life history along with his miracle cures. This occurred when patient was in the Critcal Ward, the 60’s. By the 70’s, the Guardians Office was dreamt up to reinforce the enforcers and has been on a life support drip called OSA since the 80’s. Scientology in the 21st century is like The Walking Dead. This may be why one has difficulty changing their minds. They have sacrificed Everything to remove it. OT 8’s have succeeded. They Just “Know” Ron was a Medicine Man and that’s all they “need to know”, you know?

      • Captain Howdy
        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          tks. There are some gems of humor in there. A sincere and intelligent dissection, but somehow he slips in cowpunching, fan dancing and “one swell foop”.

          • Captain Howdy

            When I saw the name S.I Hayakawa that caused me to have a non-LSD related flashback to San Francisco 1968, when I was 9, and all the craziness that took place at S.F State. I grew up in the right place at the right time, that’s fer sure.

            • Artoo45

              I haven’t thought about him and his weird fondness for tam o’shanters in ages. I too was nine that year, and my older sister was headed to SF State that year and my parents made her go to college of Marin instead.

          • Observer

            I’m trying to up-arrow you, but when I click the up it gives you a -1. WTF, Disqus?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Must be one of those osawabi tribe arrows. you have to believe it to see it.

            • Ah, so perhaps the mystery down-arrows are not from an addled scilon lurking the board?

            • Observer

              It wasn’t on the down arrow side. It was on the up side but appeared as “-1”. Bizarre.

            • Now that’s even weirder. The message-board has some boardy-thetans?

        • sugarplumfairy

          Thank you so much for posting that..

          • Captain Howdy

            Thank you so much for the thank you.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Well, thank you for the thank you for my thank you.. I begin to see why our wise forefathers came up with “you’re welcome..”

        • jojo neal

          Just finished it. Among Hayakawa’s many brilliant and telling points, one socked me right in the eye: “Hubbard has an intense hatred and contempt for women.”

          We were talking yesterday about his family background; one wonders, what did poor Mrs. Hubbard ever do to make her little boy think that all women were unfaithful whores who couldn’t wait to abort their children?
          Dear God, he was one sick creep. It made me almost lose breakfast to read his ‘AA’ theories.

        • LongNeckGoose

          “Before going into a discussion of the rest of the chaff in dianetics, let me state my position at once: there is no wheat.” –S. I. Hayakawa

        • Artoo45

          “Hubbard’s hatred and contempt of women is quite intense. His ‘case-histories’ betray a remarkable obsession with ‘AA’ and female adultery.” — S I Hayakawa, on Dianetics

          • Missionary Kid

            LRH could dish it out, but he couldn’t take it.

      • “with its accompanying pretentious and nonsensical doctrines…” — such a perfect, concise description.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Wow! What an amazingly insightful review!!

        “…I have long felt that there are dangers to the writer as well as to the reader in pulp fiction. It did not occur to me until I read Dianetics to try to analyze the special dangers entailed in the profession of science-fiction writing. The art consists in concealing from the reader, for novelistic purposes, the distinctions between established scientific facts, almost-established scientific hypotheses, scientific conjectures, and imaginative extrapolations far beyond what has even been conjectured. The danger of this technique lies in the fact that, if the writer of science-fiction writes too much of it too fast and too glibly and is not endowed from the beginning with a high degree of semantic self-insight (consciousness of abstracting), he may eventually succeed in concealing the distinction between his facts and his imaginings from himself. In other words, the space-ships and the men of Mars and the atomic disintegrator pistols acquire so vivid a verbal existence that they may begin to have, in the writer’s evaluations, ‘actual’ existence. Like Willy Loman in The Death of a Salesman, he may eventually fall for his own pitch…”

        Where are these great wise men like Hayakawa who used to run for office? Why are we now saddled with Hallorans, Brouns, Akins and Palins?

        • Observer

          “… if the writer of science-fiction writes too much of it too fast and too glibly …”

          Glib alert! Calling Tom Cruise!

      • The Dark Avenger

        Found it!

        http://www.lisamcpherson.org/hayakawa.htm

        The case of Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, author of Dianetics: The Modern Science
        of Mental Health, offers an almost unparalleled illustration of the principle
        held by writers on general semantics that language habits tend ultimately to
        become internalized. Korzybski said that one’s evaluations tend to reflect the
        structure of the language one speaks; Wendell Johnson has described ‘the way
        the language does your thinking for you’ and has said that ‘every speaker is
        his own most interested and affected listener.’

        • sugarplumfairy

          Cap’n Howdy posted it 4 hours ago, but it’s the thought that counts..

          • The Dark Avenger

            I’ll look downthread before posting something again. D’oh!

            • Captain Howdy

              That’s 4 UP votes you owe me kid.

            • The Dark Avenger

              Okay.

            • sugarplumfairy

              if anything was worth posting twice, that was..

            • Dennis

              D’oh!” (pron.: /ˈdoʊ/ DOH) is a catchphrase used by the fictional character Homer Simpson, from the long-running American animated sitcom The Simpsons
              (1989–present). It is typically used when Homer injures himself,
              realizes that he has done something stupid, or when something bad has
              happened or is about to happen to him. All his prominent blood
              relations—son Bart, daughters Lisa and Maggie, his father, his mother and half-brother—have also been heard to use it themselves in similar circumstances. On a few occasions Homer’s wife Marge and even non-related characters such as Mr. Burns and Krusty the Clown have also used this phrase.

              In 2006, “D’oh!” was listed as number six on TV Land’s list of the 100 greatest television catchphrases.[1][2] The spoken word “D’oh” is a sound trademark of 20th Century Fox.[3] Since 2001, the word has appeared in the Oxford English Dictionary.[4]

            • The Dark Avenger

              GAFL, Denny Boo-Boo.

        • Thanks. Dianetics could have been presented as ” the discovery revealed to our hero, Dick Savage, by the mysterious scientist, Dr. Vladimir Nemo, in the spring of 2013 A.D. in the Cosmic Ray Solarium of the fashionable Olympia Hotel in Lhasa, now a favorite summer resort for wealthy American poets and commissars” Ah, for the days when 2013 was in the remote future…

          • jojo neal

            Yeah, that cracked me up. i’m afraid that’ wealthy American poets’ must remain science fiction.

    • richelieu jr

      I was reading the comments on Marty’s first post on the Wright book and people were going on about how you couldn’t trust the Navy’s official documents because they had met a retired officer, a really ‘reliable fellow’ who said LRH was ‘the best damn officer he ever saw’.. They couldn’t remember the exact name of this person, but then Madame Misinformation (DISinformation? Miss Information?) Chimed in with the guy’s name and rank…

      It was really stomach churning to see some people in the midst of having the scales fall from their eyes,a nd then the True Believers out there ding their damndest to prop up Ron’s tired, ragged shaggy-Alien stories….

      • Captain Howdy

        I’m going with “Miss Information”.

        The Martians keep begging her to write the “definitive” LRH biography !

        • richelieu jr

          Yeah, I’ve read that too.. What a force for evil that woman is..

          BTW, love your avatar, and love that actor and that film (pity what DePalma did with it in Black Dahlia, though it was cute, I guess) They just remade it over here, you know…

          • Captain Howdy

            I read they did a remake. Have you seen it ?

    • sugarplumfairy

      Just like lrh to lie a critic into a chum..

    • dwayners13

      Another example of the benefits of Hubbard’s assertion, “what’s true for you, is what’s true for you” (or something to that effect). If you believe Hubbard lived with Si Hayakawa, studied with Einstein & had a doctorate a nuclear physics, that’s all that matters in the reality that is Scientology.

      • SFFrog

        Until you die of cancer because you are looking for SPs rather than treating it.

        • But what’s true for you is that you’re just dropping a meat body and will be clearing Target Two in no time, so it’s all good.

  • John P.

    Two things stood out for me in today’s story:

    1) I had heard the nonsense about “Hubbard the optic nerve cripple” before — it’s the foundation of the infamous Tommy Davis quote about how if Hubbard’s war record was a lie then all of Scientology is a lie. But I had never heard the nonsense about “Hubbard the black belt chop-socky movie star” before. About the only defense the guy had from being laughed into oblivion by his followers was the immense amount of his verbal diarrhea that reduced the odds that people would discover two completely incompatible versions of his self created legend. Oh, and the brainwashing and mind control.

    2) I was impressed that Atack had the presence of mind in a deposition with the utterly evil Ken Moxon to stand on his conclusion that the blood brother story was a complete fabrication. There are countless stories of how Moxon is able to make depositions very creepy, so to stick to one’s guns in that setting is notable. For laughs, it might be fun to contact this Richard Mataisz, the source of the letter claiming (decades after the fact) to support Hubbard’s claim and ask him what he thinks of Scientology now. The only Richard Mataisz in the US lives in the tiny hamlet of Babb, Montana, so he ought to be easy for a crack investigative reporter to track down. Hint, hint…

    • richelieu jr

      Just look in the phone book under FeatherPillow LotsaLeaves… If he doesn’t pick up, try another smoke signal.. Him heap big screener…

      • Observer

        I loled at Tree Manyfeathers. Really? He couldn’t do better than that?

        • It sounds as if he had heard the “Tom Madfeathers” story once but couldn’t remember the name right.

    • monkeyknickers

      On behalf of the Confederated Tribes of Grand Ronde, (we’re not all the same . . . think . . . the difference in cultures between Denmark and Iran for example) I can confidently say that the “blood brother” ritual is complete horseshit. And on behalf of all the Native races, I can ALSO safely say: holy fucking shit what an asshole!

    • a mere observer

      My ex-husband is part Blackfoot Indian, with family in Cutbank, Browning, and Babb. I have been to all three places and I still remember a lot about their culture. This LRH story is complete bullshit.

  • This is from Russell Miller’s 1987 book on Hubbard, ‘Bare-Faced Messiah’:

    “One evening [in 1934], Frank Gruber [a friend of Hubbard and fellow pulp fiction writer], sat through a long account of his experiences in the Marine Corps, his exploration of the upper Amazon and his years as a white hunter in Africa. At the end of it he asked with obvious sarcasm: ‘Ron, you’re eighty-four years old aren’t you?’

    ‘What the hell are you talking about?’ Ron snapped.

    Gruber waved a notebook in which he had been jotting figures. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you were in the Marines seven years, you were a civil engineer for six years, you spent four years in Brazil, three in Africa, you barnstormed with your own flying circus for six years… I’ve just added up all the years you did this and that and it comes to eighty-four.’

    (Hubbard) was furious that his escapades should be openly doubted. ‘He blew his tack,’ said Gruber. He would react in the same way at the [American Fiction] Guild lunches if someone raised an eyebrow when he was in full flow. Most of the other members expected their yarns to be taken with a pinch of salt, but not Ron. It was almost as if he believed his own stories.”

    Andrew

    • 1subgenius

      Today the response would be, “Cool story, bro.”

    • Observer

      They were metaphors.

    • SciWatcher

      It seems to me that Ron really DID believe his own stories–including everything he wrote about Scientology. Does anyone know the extent to which this is true? Did he do auditing, etc. What about Miscavige? I think I read in a comment here that he hadn’t gotten past the lower OT levels. Does anyone think he believes, or does he know it’s just a huge con? I’m inclined to think the latter.

      • Cymboli Starsong

        I don’t believe for a second that he believes in this bullshit.

        • Sandy

          As Mr Beatty likes to point out, in Wright’s book’s epilog, Hubbard admitted that he had failed. He thought he was on to something … but finally realized that he was not. Sad.

          • Missionary Kid

            Why do you think he emphasized that his works be perpetrated. If they really were that good, he wouldn’t worry about it.

      • Missionary Kid

        LRH knew it was a con. He tailored his stories to his audience.

    • dwayners13

      Perhaps this was one of the reasons scientologist are forbidden to look at any information about Hubbard that isn’t published or approved by the church. They can’t have people actually challenging his tales of brainstorming, breaking up satanic cults & saving America from enemy submarines/mineral deposits. If people start questioning his exploits, qualifications or the research that serves as the foundation of Dianetics & Scientology, they may notice thing don’t add up.

  • hogarthian

    “Old Tom Madfeathers”? roflmao You really could not make it up. Except someone did.

  • richelieu jr

    I grew up part-time in Colorado and did have Native Americans at my high school (my high school honey was Native American, in fact).. And I must admit, my face red with shame, that as a kid I lied often and claimed, not to be a ‘blood-brother’, but the functional equivalent- an ‘honourary member’ of a tribe… I so wish I was kidding here… I still wince when I think of what a fool I must have looked, most especially to the ‘Indians’ I so respected and wanted to be like, even to the point of lying about it… Luckily I mostly pulled this shit in France, but still… I had also been fond of telling people I came from outer space a tone time, so I imagine they knew about how much belief to accord me..

    The cojones to do that on a major scalle, to continue that into adulthood… The mind reels.. Still, I can almost see how the humiliation and horror of being caught out and aving to eat your Crow Crazy Feathers might be enough to make you keep running with it, skippingput everytime someone started to wake up and smell the Forked Tongued Snaggletooth…

    Perhaps I got into the wrong line of business? As a film make, I still lie for a living, in a sense, I suppose, and Hollywood is certainly full of Junior LRH Jrs constantly afraid of being caught out,s o you’d have thought I’d have felt right at home.. U can see why LRH wanted t be part of the gang there….

    I dunno– Whattaya say? Anybody want to join my cult? It’s cheaper than $cientology and can’t possibly be any worse.. Can it?

    • No need to feel shame about pretending to be an honourary member of a tribe as a child, most people would think it’s cute. It’s when an adult like Hubbard does it that’s a problem.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Stunted emotional growth is practically a requirement for passage into scientology staff pools. Not required for paying customers, but it sure helps. You actually regress as you crawl up the Hubbard bridge. View Any video of an OT 8 speaking. Close your eyes and guess their mental age.

    • Captain Howdy

      I actually am part Native American (Chickasaw). So L Ron and the rest of you can suck my ***** and GTFO !

      • jojo neal

        So am I, Cap,n. but I have no cultural connections. We didn’t even make the Trail of Tears (very smart great-great grandparents.) So I don’t claim it; I feel I don’t have the right. I grew up with the real deal, rez kids who knew firsthand about prejudice and oppression . I’ve never had to walk the walk.

        There was no vulgarity to which lrh would not sink, but this blood brother garbage really makes my personal supply boil. Native Americans get really sick of this; first the whites steal their land, then try to horn in on their culture.

        • Captain Howdy

          And then some “Native Americans” named Vinnie and Paulie make a “contribution” to whatever crooked tribal leader and get themselves declared 1/16th whatever and it’s see you later casino profits.

    • Ms. B. Haven

      The thing that popped into my mind when you mentioned your feeling of shame in contrast to Hubbard’s bluster was a comment I heard sometime back regarding the over inflated egos of politicians (some politicians anyway). After an especially infamous revelation was published in the local fish wrapper describing the debauchery and possible crimes of a local legislator someone wrote a letter to the editor saying “what would embarrass this guy would kill a normal man”. No truer words would describe Hubbard and his purported exploits.

  • “Unindicted co-conspirator Kendrick Moxon” I think should be his title from now on.
    My siblings and I and the neighbor children used to watch the TV westerns and pretend we were blood brothers (sisters), and it’s easy to see Hubbard took this from a child’s fantasy game to another level.

  • Peter Robinson

    How can you tell when LRH was lying? When his lips moved, or he picked up his pen.

    • Davka

      Or just sat there looking at you.

    • Missionary Kid

      Or typed.

      • FistOfXenu

        Or breathed. Or thought. Or felt something.

        I wonder if he knew he lied to himself in his dreams?

        • Missionary Kid

          Yeah, he knew. He knew who he was talking to, so he tailored his lies to hi listeners, like any con man.

    • Missionary Kid

      Or breathed or typed

  • I have a lot of sympathy for those who create tall tales, though this evaporates when they fail to keep them locked inside the electronic prison of their brain but instead tell them to others in an attempt to gain respect and admiration,

    Earlier in my life I spent many long hours sitting in aeroplanes traveling around the world and when the complementary booze failed to put me to sleep, I’d quietly day-dream amazing yarns in which I was always the dashing, though reluctant hero overcoming apparently insurmountable odds and feeling slightly discomforted by the honours and grateful thanks heaped upon me. Then the plane would land and I’d forget that I had just saved the world, or more often the beautiful maiden and trudge towards the Arrivals area wondering if my luggage had arrived on the same aircraft.

    Keith Waterhouse wrote a novel in 1959, ‘Billy Liar’ which was later turned into a play, a film, a musical and a TV series. There is no indication that he used L Ron Hubbard as a source for the main character, William (Billy) Fisher.

    Andrew

    • Captain Howdy

      Yea, “Billy Liar” w/ Tom Courtney and Julie Christie. Great movie and great comment(s) as usual Andrew.

    • sugarplumfairy

      does this mean there are no invisible pink polka-dancing unicorns in your garden at midnight?? ohhhhh……

      • FistOfXenu

        That’s silly. They’re invisible so he can’t tell.

        The visible unicorns are in my back yard. They like my swimming pool especially in full moon.

  • 0tessa

    I once was a bloodsister of Hiawatha.

    • justanotherguyoutthere

      LRH was a bloodblister of Sitting Bull

      • Observer

        Sitting Bull, or his pathological liar cousin Shitting Bull?

        • lololololololol….bloodblister of Shitting Bull – someone send that to Dan Sherman – stat

    • I think Ron (or Mudjekeewis to give him his Blackfeet name) was Hiawatha’s father!
      …………………………………………………
      Passed the dwellings of the Blackfeet,
      Came unto the Rocky Mountains,
      To the kingdom of the West-Wind,
      Where upon the gusty summits
      Sat the ancient Mudjekeewis,
      Ruler of the winds of heaven.
      …………………………………………………

      Many days they talked together,
      Questioned, listened, waited, answered;
      Much the mighty Mudjekeewis
      Boasted of his ancient prowess,
      Of his perilous adventures,
      His indomitable courage,
      His invulnerable body.

      Patiently sat Hiawatha,
      Listening to his father’s boasting;
      With a smile he sat and listened,
      Uttered neither threat nor menace,
      Neither word nor look betrayed him,
      But his heart was hot within him,
      Like a living coal his heart was.

      …………………………………………………

      Minnehaha

      • 0tessa

        I remember, I remember! It took me days to cool him down, Hiawatha, my poor brother.

      • jojo neal

        Andrew, I just love it when you quote poetry – the Professional Organization of English Majors would like to perform a “Literacy Victory” haka in your honor.
        Ah, New Zealand – a small nation that produces great rugby teams (go All Blacks!) great opera singers (Te Kanawa) great movies (LOTR) and people who can quote Keats and Longfellow.
        (Also great spouses – but that’s another story).

        • Captain Howdy

          Great bands also. The Chills,The Clean, The Kaleidoscopes, among others.

          • jojo neal

            I forgot Sean Finn!

            • Captain Howdy

              Uh-oh, just for that I’m gonna put up the “I Got You” video..J/K..and it’s Tim Finn and Neil Finn..FLUNK !

            • jojo neal

              Oh, you’re right – it’s Neil.
              “Don’t Dream It’s Over” is one of my favorites – still moves me to tears for some reason.

          • Observer

            And my favorite 80s video …

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJgY2qFzS60

    • sugarplumfairy

      I was once Hiawatha.. good to see you again, Oweenee. ‘s up?

      • 0tessa

        You remember our father, Mudjekeewis, the big boaster?

        • sugarplumfairy

          Who could forget him? Did you know, he later became Kim Jong il.. I missed you at the funeral last year.. but it was a lovely service.. He looked very natural..

          • 0tessa

            The evil thetan …

    • FistOfXenu

      I am the full 100% bloodbrother of my brothers and sisters.

  • This one was a difficult one because I so appreciated “A Piece of Blue Sky” when it came out. But in the end, the internet probably trumps books in getting the word out and Operation Clambake has been a terrific source for that.

  • BosonStark

    So in the Nutterpedia, Old Tom doesn’t perch on top of his teepee or anything? No wonder Going Clear is selling much better. Maybe it’d help if they made a movie out of the Nutterpedia — they could use an all-Psychlo cast to give it a spiritual dimension.

    For the train stop experience Ron had when he was two, Moxon should induct him into the begging-for-booze-money-foot tribe, just to set the record straight.

    The operative words in the Wright blurb are “he says.” When I was reading that passage in his book, I chalked it up to his wry sense of humor which I enjoyed throughout his book.

    • Captain Howdy

      “They could use an all-Psychlo cast to give it a spiritual dimension.”

      Then we could CGI see Old Tom jump 20 ft straight up to perch on his teepee…woosh !

      • stillgrace

        They really should go with Gary Busey as Old Tom.
        Thank you, sugarplumfairy, for your astute observations.

        • sugarplumfairy

          I love you, stillgrace..

          • stillgrace

            muah!!!

            • DMSTCC

              An angry p*ssy and a camera reminds me of Jodi Arias.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Hey.. I resemble that statement!! I’m pretty sure Arias is a scientologist.. Or at least would have made an excellent OSA operative..

            • stillgrace

              LDS … different cult.

            • stillgrace

              LOL! Hey, leave my cat out of this. He’s innocent.

        • Captain Howdy

          Maybe, but I’m still going with the real Old Tom.

          • stillgrace

            LOL!! Where did you find this?

            • Captain Howdy

              Wouldn’t you like to know ? HaHaHaHaHa HeHeHeHe !

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol.. You’ve been in his attic, haven’t you? I figured he had a scary painting of himself hidden up there..

            • stillgrace

              Shades of Dorian Gray!

            • FistOfXenu

              50 shades of?

          • DMSTCC
            • sugarplumfairy

              this is why..

              Ok, I’m finished joking and degrading.. for now..

            • FistOfXenu

              Don’t finish for too long. The place wouldn’t be the same if you get serious on us.

            • sugarplumfairy

              awww.. no worries, Fist.. not much chance of that happening.. =)

            • Captain Howdy

              Poor Dan. there was rumor he had cancer and had died, but that wasn’t true apparently. If crazy Mary DeMoss could make it out, I’m hoping Dan can also. He looks fried in that night protest vid though.

            • Sandy

              Yes, poor Dan One of the saddist scientology vids I have ever seen.

          • Observer

            Gadzooks! Thanks for the nightmare fuel!

          • coonellie

            …eww

        • 1subgenius

          Poor Gary.
          Drain bamage.

          • stillgrace

            “Forgetful Lucy … cracked her head like Gary Busey.”
            Sung by Henry Roth in “50 First Dates”.

    • Ze Moo

      ‘all-psychlo cast” or ‘all-psycho cast? Either way, my nomination for phase of the week. What do you keep in your codpiece?

  • Observer

    Once I recovered from the aneurysm I had upon seeing today’s matchup, I voted for Jon. OCMB is a treasure trove of stories, dox, support and knowledgeable critics, and I can’t say enough good things about Andreas. However, Jon’s decades-long dismantling and examination of Hubbard’s lies has provided a large part of the superstructure of the anti-Scn movement, and he continues to add to it.

    Speaking of Hubbard’s lies … I knew the whole Blackfoot blood brother thing was a stupid lie, but not exactly how stupid or how much of a lie. LRH: he’s always worse than you think.

    Can you imagine being his parents? You desperately want a child, he’s born prematurely and by some miracle lives, then as an adult (and after cutting you out of his life) he’s a pseudo-Crowleyite, finally turning into a sadistic, narcissistic, mentally ill con-artist cult leader who destroys thousands of lives and families and causes uncounted deaths, even long after he is himself dead.

  • I have a local man in Indpls that claims his granddad( or great granddad) wrote the book Scientology. An that at a meeting with Hubbard Norman Vincent Peale and His granddad they discussed it. The group where the meeting was held was called science of the mind.

    • Captain Howdy

      Is his name Barbara Schwarz by any chance ?

      • FistOfXenu

        That name takes me back about 10 yrs.

    • Espiando

      My mother tells me that her grandfather was ripped off in a business deal for a soap formula by Philip Armour, and that if he hadn’t been, we’d be rich.

      However, I did really know Al Capone’s nephew. He owned a small meat distributorship in Chicago, and I was his inspector for a year and a half. Nice guy, and told me a lot about his family.

      In other words, Cool Story, Bro. And to bring up another meme, Dox or GTFO.

    • junojones

      There is actually a group called ‘Science of the Mind’. They predate scientology by at least a couple of decades and are spun off from NVP and the Unity movements (which spin off of Blavatsky,etc). I know a few people who have been involved with them over the years, most nowadays vociferiously deny any link with scientology. In my experience, they are new-agers who lack the cult apparatus of larger and more organized groups like scientology..

      I suspect Hubbard stole the ‘science of the mind’ sobriquet from them.

      • Captain Howdy

        Juno, you know your esoteric “stuff”.

      • 1subgenius

        He He, I have a “Theosophical Society” down the street, and an “Aetherius Society” a couple miles away.

      • jensting

        don’t forget the number of names it went through before being published in “Dianetics.” We had several scans on WWP (explorer’s journal, Astounding Science Fiction, and so on).

    • 1subgenius

      He should so sue them.

    • Norman Vincent Peale? That’s random.

  • Espiando

    65-35 again, huh? This is now verging from “habit” to “worrisome trend”.

    Sorry, Jon. For “Piece” and for the declare of the Toxic Dwarf, you deserve godhood and perpetual oral favors from as many valkyries as you’d like. But even with a new edition out, you can’t beat the SMERSH impact of the place that became SMERSH Central after OSA astroturfed a.r.s. to death. Jon belongs in Valhalla. Clambake actually is Valhalla.

    • Sherbet

      I’m waiting for John P to weigh in on the 65/35 votes. He’s good with demographics and figures. Maybe the entire world skews 65/35 on all their opinions. Or something.

      • Captain Howdy

        Don’t wait for John go to Ron. He must have upchucked something about stats along the way. Check the WISE HCOPL’s..chop,chop !

        • Sherbet

          Check the…what?

          • Captain Howdy

            Flunk ! I’m sending you to the RPF aka Brockton

            • Sherbet

              Nooooo!!!!

            • Sherbet

              Oh, THAT HCOPL. Got it. I’ll see your Brockton, and raise you one Chelsea.

            • Captain Howdy

              Ha Ha.. originally I was going to write Chelsea. Don’t laugh, I lived there for 3 years..in Hellingham square. Noooooo!!!!

            • Sherbet

              But it’s all gentrified now. I think.

            • Captain Howdy

              Think again.

            • thats it ..i think we are related . I was born in Chelsea Mass…in the navel hospital. Then they tore it down . My family is from Southie and Somerville Mass. My cousins live in Brockton .

            • The “navel hospital”? Is that where they harvest umbilical cords?

            • bad speller today ..;)

            • Sherbet

              My husband was born in that hospital, too, Kim. (Cue “Small World” now.)

            • Really ??!! I love that !! Give him a big Masshole high five for me 😉

            • Sherbet

              Will do.

            • Captain Howdy

              Since i’ve moved here i’ve made friends with people who knew Kileen, Whitey, O’connor etc. They think I’m funny.

            • my great aunt used to babysit for Whitey’s girlfriends kid . Holy shitballs …the Winter Hill Gang ..and BTW …my dads name is Tom O’Connor 😉

            • ParticleMom

              I was just in Brockton this afternoon. Lovely city. (sarcasm font)

            • Captain Howdy

              Particle Mom , WTF you been ?

            • ParticleMom

              On the Abington end of town. The RPF, but not the RPF’s RPF.

            • Sherbet

              OK, there are three known Massholes now. Kim is holding the fort out west. We are legion.

  • Sherbet

    I’m having a bit of trouble with Atack’s remark: “His Navy record supports the second story…” Does this mean lrh was once, in truth, jumped by three sailors bent on homicide and put them out of commission with a broken beer bottle, and the Navy documents support the event?

    • TonyOrtega

      As Jon said in the rest of that sentence, the record supports his lack of war injuries, not his judo prowess.

      • Sherbet

        Ah. But do you see that “the second story” seems to refer to the brawl?

        • Captain Howdy

          So Blubbard got his ass kicked in Hollywood. You find this incredulous ?

          • Sherbet

            No, that he won the fight is the dicey part.

            • Observer

              He bloviated them into unconsciousness.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Lol..

          • RMycroft

            Are you sure that he didn’t SCOHB?

            • Captain Howdy

              Yea, him and Axle Rose (it’s true).

        • BosonStark

          One would think L. Ron was too busy bloviating to ever brawl.

          • Captain Howdy

            Ron was a bronco busting, bloviating, brawler. That’s why he called his ranch “The Triple B”.

            • Sherbet

              He was a bronco busting, bloviating, beer bottle brawler.

        • ParticleMom

          I read it that way too, Sherbet.

          • Sherbet

            A kindred soul!

    • sugarplumfairy

      And a “heavy” beer bottle at that..

      • Observer

        I’ll give him that one (the heavy part, anyway). Those old beer bottles are very thick and heavy. I have one with the date 1942 on it, and trust me, it wouldn’t take much to cave someone’s skull in with it.

      • Missionary Kid

        Shows how prescient LRH was. This was years before “light beer.” 🙂

    • RMycroft

      I believe that just as much as I believe the story where he stuffed one of his teachers in a garbage can.

      • Ze Moo

        Lron also claimed to be a volunteer LA police officer who took control of alcoholic and drug crazed felons with just his superior thetan mind. If your going to have delusions, they might as well be good ones.

        • RMycroft

          Nah. He was just an armed security guard. They weren’t police at all, but there wasn’t a California security guard license yet. Wasn’t that just before he got busted for trying to pass a rubber check?

          • LongNeckGoose

            I’ve always wondered about that alleged badge they show. Thanks for clearing (no pun intended) that up.

      • Observer

        Given that with LRH every day was Opposite Day, I’m guessing a teacher stuffed him in a trash can.

        • Missionary Kid

          THAT’S where he picked up all those engrams.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Did he overboard the sailors, or stalk and harrass and threaten to sue them first? Or did he try to assist them with some touching? All his other actual military notes describe him as a pompous, pain in the ass which is a very dangerous particle in times of war. And what happened to all his mojo from his childhood days of being able to beat up tall bullies with a single bound, wrestle bears into submission, and various handy martial arts super powers he had at his command? I’m surprised Dan didn’t turn that bottle into a bear that he swung around and killed them all in a single swing through.

    • FistOfXenu

      You should’ve read the whole sentence “His Navy record supports the second story (though not the bit about the judo).” I read that as the Navy verifies he wasn’t crippled and blind at the time and he really was in LA but the confrontation is more horseshit.

      • Sherbet

        Yes, I get it, but I also see why I got confused. As JT Barbarino used to say, “I’m sooo confuuuused.” But I do get it, and I’m sorry. My mistake.

        • FistOfXenu

          Sorry. Didn’t mean to sound like telling you off. And yeah it’s easy to miss. I think it must be how Atack says things?

          • Sherbet

            No problem, Fist. (Gotta stay on Xenu’s good side.)

            • FistOfXenu

              You’re already there Sherbet. 🙂

  • Sherbet

    Does anyone else think the Buckskin Brigades cover art looks like TC?

    • The Dakini

      Yup. I thought the same thing when the page loaded. A blonde TC. Creepy.

    • Captain Howdy

      It is TC..seriously.

  • sugarplumfairy

    I’m not very tech savvy but I wish I knew enough to take that photo of old Tom and put it next to a photo like this..

    http://photos.exposay.com/Gary_Busey/photo/817915/

    • The Dakini

      Heh heh.

  • dwayners13

    I try to imagine a world/reality where Hubbard was a lame & blind highly decorated war hero, where Xenu wasn’t a metaphor but a real galactic emperor & those in the upper Operating Thetan levels can exteriorize at will, have 20/20 vision, never get colds, have a vast collection of amazing abilities & the wisdom to never show them to others. This reality requires one to suspend the use of reason, logic, common sense & critical thinking as they tend to interfere with beliefs such as Hubbard breaking broncos before most kids can a bike.

    • Sherbet

      Seriously, the world you describe sounds peaceful and ideal, and I can see how people would be desperate to believe scientology promises and provides all those things and more — world peace, an end to poverty and disease, and happiness. There’s nothing wrong with believing in wonderful and positive things. Unfortunately, there’s nothing behind the promises except lies and a scam, and not everyone figures that out.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Background: There was a great yearning for peace, a worn out war torn remnant of a world and fear of a repeat performance. The scientists had been given funds and resources during that war and now revealing bright, shiny things to rekindle hope and whet appetites for miracles and electric gizmos the wives could buy for their hard to shop for husbands who throughout history are suckers for devices with knobs. This is an example of the astounding “special effects” that dangled amazing new vistas before our very wide eyes at a time when anything and everything truly did seem possible. When we weren’t spellbound in front of our black and white TV, we were diving under our desks for nuclear bomb drills. Fun times.

        http://youtu.be/AMEc_MiLmgw

        • Sherbet

          I, too, remember the ideals of the Summer of Love and the Age of Aquarius and how weary everyone was — regardless of personal politics — of war and threatened war. I don’t fault anyone for being seduced by the possibility of eternal peace. It’s a lovely thought. The madman didn’t deliver, though, as you exes learned. Instead, you received an unwanted education in the art of flim-flammery. I’m just glad I never got in, and that people like you got out. Hugs.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Besides the requirement of stunted emotional growth for whatever reason, lack of life experience and college education made for perfect blank slates which is why the bait and switch business model has always been the 16-24 age bracket in high volume. I didn’t spend the decades and buckets of cash that others did, so I’m good.

            • jojo neal

              Cults always go after that age bracket. No life experience + natural curiosity + weak filters = easy marks.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              And that is why Anonymous emerged. it was time.

    • jensting

      Not only does it require the mark to agree to believe weird made up things, it also requires the mark to believe nasty things about reality (like the attempted abortion thing). As Tony and Vance have been demonstrating, there’s more to Dianutty/$cientology than some fuzzy ideas of super-human states. There’s also a real hatred being instilled towards civil society, towards women, and so on and so forth.

      • dwayners13

        I’ve always thought that the adage in Scientology, “what’s true for you is what’s true for you” should really read, “what’s true for you is what WE say is true for you”, (we meaning mostly Hubbard & his ‘Mini Me’ Miscavige). Since I didn’t pick up this particular meat body until the early 70’s, I wasn’t around during the time LRH ‘reasearched’ & wrote Dianetics, however according to the book, people were apparently getting knock unconscious every other day & abortions were very popular. As you point out, it was also evident that Hubbard didn’t have a lot of respect for women, even the ones he was married to (legally or otherwise). This is most evident when he sat back in his hiding spot, as his wife was arrested, tried & sent to prison for her role in ‘Operation Snow White’. It was also apparent when he wrote the CIA & accused his earlier wife of being a communist & Russian spy. If this is how he treats & regards the women he apparently loves, you can imagine his treatment & view of women in general.

  • DeElizabethan

    “Kendrick Moxon was so disappointed with his interrogation of me that he didn’t even ask me to sign the deposition. He had failed to find a single mistake in my work, which is very gratifying.”

    Love this about Jon Atack, for he was very thorough.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      One of the first books I read, even though I’d been out for some time, still living in the belly, still attached to some of the flock, still thinking the organization was a crock, but never knowing some, hell, almost All of the truth. All I had to do is see the title of his work, “Piece of Blue Sky”, and he had me. I understood the title immediately and knew there was something I really need to see behind that cover. Russell Miller was next.

      • FistOfXenu

        Still love this book. And it was the 1 reliable source of info back then I could tell was rock solid reliable. And it showed the way for hitting the cult hard. Facts facts and more facts. The new version has even more great footnotes. Atack nailed it for me.

  • DeElizabethan

    Off topic and sorry if duplicate, but am off for the day. Jenna Miscaviage in Amsterdam tells about the small and failing org there.

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/27135/scientology-amsterdam-a-small-and-failing-org

    • noseinabk

      “The cult’s unethical behavior is based on the writings of its founder, L. Ron Hubbard.”
      Great article De! The links in it make it pretty clear that Amsterdam is dealing with scientology the way the US should be.

    • Bob

      This is a good link. Thanks.

  • Kapnik

    Notwithstanding the many articles both praising and examining him, Ron has always been seen as the modest man most people knew him as. That is to say, in a rather frank, yet openly clear way that fit the leanings of a man with such insights, the wherewithal of most allegories are ones which most parishioners still feel comfort in. In the indomitable manner that has characterized him, Ron never sought out the leadership that would inevitably be placed upon him, but enjoyed the camaraderie of helping hands, being one among them. Nonetheless, to infer, as some have, that the writings of his excellent and fruitful biographer were somehow tortured would be to strain credulity even among the most critical of observers.

    • Captain Howdy

      Are you channeling Miscavige or Sherman ? Oh wait, they’re one and the same right ? Good job.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Lol.. If I’d read that before I commented, I could have saved myself the trouble..

        • Captain Howdy

          “strain credulity ” was a dead give away. I could just see and hear that coming out of the left side of Slappy’s South Philly mouth.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            absolutely.

    • Observer

      Hmm

      • Sherbet

        Same here, Observer. Just don’t know.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Lol.. maybe like Bob, his J&D is just a little rusty.. And like Bob, he’ll grow on us and we’ll end up loving him..

        • Sherbet

          He/she writes nicely but has to work on the sarcasm font.

          • jojo neal

            Nicely? NICELY?

            • Captain Howdy

              Writes nicely as Dan Sherman .

          • Captain Howdy

            You kids need to look around before you start posting comments willy-nilly.

            • Sherbet

              Spelling and punctuation are good. That’s a plus.

          • Captain Howdy

            You kids need to look around before you start posting comments willy-nilly.

        • Bob

          Thanks, SPF. Not rusty more like never used before. Rusty is a complement for me.

          But Kapnik has to be joking. Danny Sherman loves the attention and big bucks he makes from the Seamorgue. He gave up a real job writing, to do his best fiction work writing as the LRH biographer. He is at a point where he is not going to give up a good thing. Even if it means stretching the truth a lot.

      • noseinabk

        HA!! Glad you posted that pic. I was thinking that today but was to lazy to post.

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…Ron never sought out the leadership that would inevitably be placed upon him…”

      He was too busy seeking out the millions of dollars and millions of dupes that were his true calling..

      and lol, now they’re allegories??? oh, the creative spin of co$..

    • stillgrace

      WTF? Danny, is that you?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        or Davey? Nah, it’s too early for Davey. Cocktail bar is still closed and the online casinos don’t serve.

    • John P.

      OSA or troll? My vote: troll. Why?

      1) Spelling is OK. Few OSA staffers can string together 200 words without making a couple basic spelling mistakes.

      2) Nice job emulating “Sherman speak.” Opening the effort with “notwithstanding,” which seems to be one of Danny (“Mullet Boy”) Sherman’s favorite words. Kapnik does a reasonably good job of continuing with Sherman-like bloviation throughout.

      3) No cookie-cutter OSA-approved messages like “all religions do that,” or “you’re all bitter defrocked apostates.”

      4) Relatively amusing last sentence talking about the “excellent and fruitful biographer,” in a subtle but amusing sort of self-referential irony, given that he’s parodying Shermanspeak.

      With some work, Kapnik could put together a couple entries for either the International Imitation Hemingway Contest or the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest. Nice job!

      • RMycroft

        “It was a dark and stormy cult…”

    • jojo neal

      This is a joke, right?
      If so, it is very very good. If it’s for real – dude, you need …help…

    • FistOfXenu

      Thanks for the comic relief. You just finish the “Ron’s Horseshitter’s Hatting Course” or are you practicing your TR-L?

    • i want some of what you are smoking

    • You’re a poe, right?

    • I’m curious to learn your definition of the terms “modest”, “frank” and “openly clear”. The evidence seems clear that he inflated and distorted his education and accomplishments, He also established a system for controlling and exploiting members of his organization, including physical and psychological punishments that were designed to break down the will of the person in the receiving end. This is hardly the behavior of a person eschewing leadership.

    • grundoon

      Well done, Kapnik! Rather frank, yet openly clear!

    • Missionary Kid

      Great sarcasm!

  • Another thing I find interesting about Dan Sheman’s official biographies is what’s NOT in them. I’ve spent I bit of of time on lronhubbard.org, and there seems to be NO MENTIONS of whether he ever married or had kids. Yes, I realize they’re not going to include every obscure detail, but you would think his spouse(s) and kids would have at least as much significance as the age he became an Eagle Scout or what relationship he may have had with the Blackfoot Indians.
    Next, I did a google search for “Mary Sue Hubbard,” and did not find a single hit on any Scientology-approved website.

    • John P.

      Nice detective work. Apparently, he never had a first wife or a third wife, either.

      • RMycroft

        And the kid he kidnapped to Cuba wasn’t even his either!

      • Chocolate Velvet

        At this rate, it won’t be long before the cult claims LRH never existed at all.

        It will turn out that Hub was just an
        allegory for the best parts of all the world’s wisdom traditions, which are now conveniently available in one place — your local scientology org!

        If it were my cult, that’s what I would do… 😉

        • FistOfXenu

          Don’t you remember, the Demented Midget has to do everything. Always did. The Hub was really just his glove puppet. Even before he took this latest meat body he pretended to be Ron and created $cientarCONon. Soon DM’s gonna announce that he’s such a big bean and advanced OT (XV at least) and Ron was his clone. He’ll replace all the LRH photos and busts with himself.
          And the sheeple will bah “yes sir!”

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      None of his family ever existed. It’s a scientific fact.

      • Yes, Mary Sue, Diana, Quentin, Suzette & Arthur were fictional characters created by David Mayo – wait! Who’s David Mayo??

    • Bob

      Scientology Is big on the practice revisionist history. There are numerous cases of this. There are only two major individuals who are now mentioned officially regarding Scientology. Hubbard and Mouse-caviage, rodent king of the clams.

      Like Racnad I checked to see what the church wrote about the second most important historical figure in the church. Guess what! A big zero. And she never disaffected! There is nothing regarding Yvonne Jentzch. She singlehandedly did more to boom the church than Hubbard himself. She founded the celebrity centre network and boomed the orgs. Yet there is no homage to her, even at Celebrity Centre Int. this one of the most telling indictments of the absolute hypocrisy of the current church.

      Run by a despotic dictator who hates history because it credits others who are far more talented that he.
      If the mouse king could, he would remove all reference to the man who developed Scn.

      I am amazed that the clams blithely go along with the erasure of more and more true history and buy into the blatant lies spewed by the church’s PR machine.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Yeah, Bob. Hubbard was a real sweetheart to Yvonne. You’re still glib, Bob.

        • Bob

          I assume you knew Yvonne well. Hubbard supposedly was sweet on Yvonne, but he did very little to help her when she needed it. Hubbard made many, many mistakes. I think this was one of his biggest. He couldn’t even apply his own CODE OF HONOR in helping a friend in need. Goes along with the erasure of any trace of followers who helped establish Scn.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Did little to help? Made mistakes? Didn’t apply Code of Honor? He left her languishing in impossible screaming pain of brain cancer, Bob, and ruthless, shocking conditions, begging whoever passed by her door for help and money. Long way to go, Bob, but hang in there.

            • Bob

              So you knew her? I have my way of vilifying people you have yours. I knew Yvonne well. And it was disgusting what he didn’t do to help her. I just didn’t use words like despicable, heartless, callous, shameful, disgraceful, reprehensible, abject, contemptible, detestable and hypocritical.
              From the vehemence of your comment I get that you had a great admiration for Yvonne. So did I. That’s why I said it was one of Hubbard’s biggest mistakes.

            • “Mistake” doesn’t sound like the word for it.

            • Bob

              That assumes that he was trying to do something good. Then he would be making mistakes. If in fact he was only in it to exploit, then I would say Hubbard perpetrated many evil acts upon his followers and detractors. I still have not decided where he falls. Or if he is like many humans in between.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              he was a sociopat

            • Bob

              I understand about enabling, been there. Well, at the time I knew him he was fooling the majority of us. And he was still healthy. He is certainly an example of someone who manifested a dramatic sense of dichotomy while at the same time having the writing skills and ability to create a philosophy that has appeared to harm as many as it has helped. I am still finding my way in the maze. And I “won’t be fooled again”. I am not anxious to get involved with any new groups whatsoever.

            • serious question …when you knew he was fooling you …how did you wrap your head around it ?

            • Bob

              Kim, I will try to be specific without giving away any personal stuff that might peg me. It was a very slow process and it started with VV and Tony. I found it by accident. I knew I was being bad but I really liked Tonys style and some of the commenters. So it became a guilty pleasure. I was still totally in but it started to wear on me. Then I verified that LRH was a preverificator. I already knew he was human and had written some things that did not make sense but I still loved the body of his work. I just started to observe things that were happening in the church and it did not makes sense. Realize that I had great admiration for the Hub as I saw him in action first hand and I was impressed. But more and more data was being processed that he was not practicing what he preaches.
              I finally realized that I was becoming happier and happier and more stable and whereas before I was working full time at a job I liked I was just going through the motions. I Was standoffish to co-workers and was not able to connect to them. Then I was getting out of the bubble. I started relating better to non-Scnrs. Life started going better. I still did not attribute this to a new viewpoint. Then one day I was talking with a friend and I realized that I was no longer in agreement with the church. It did not mean that I did not still like a lot of what Hubbard created. But I was no longer interested in it
              In its present form. And the relief was tremendous.

              I noticed my life was going so much better and that I could still be with my Scn friends and that I could lie and go along with them, and I was not hit by a bus, nor did I fall down the stairs or have a car accident. In fact I started to feel I was achieving a positive state I never could achieve while I was in. Eventually I got enough courage to post on Tony’s blog and then I was able to shift my point of view more and question more aspects of what the Hubb wrote.

              So it was a very, very slow process and there was no particular defining moment for me. I am still questioning certain aspects of Hubbs writings. I still like a lot of it but I am not stuck on any of it.
              And I started to really observe what was happening around me and how skewed it all was.
              I know for sure that I am better. Now it is a matter of forming a new way to operate. But for now I am so much better off than I ever was before.

            • Captain Howdy

              Good for you, Bob.

            • Bob

              Thanks.

            • life is always better when you think for yourself….you must have been pretty freaked out . I notice that people coming out of this cult seem to twist themselves into a knot to come full circle about the most obvious things …like you will not get hit by a bus just because you spoke to someone. Or people are not going to get sick and die from reading info on the internet . I feel very conflicted because i have no qualms about bashing this cult ..and no qualms about confronting/bashing its apologists but i find myself treading lightly with you . I think you must be going through some serious shit …and being in this cult for as long as you have ….you are not a spring chicken and the damage is more severe. I hope that you get the help you need because your thinking is skewed about some pretty black and white stuff ….i find that scientologists look at relationships like a transaction …and then they lose sight of their own basic human instincts . Jason Beghe said that he did not really believe the Xenu story …but he accepted it. I think you accepted so many things, for so long , that you are ..in a way .. always hedging your bets when it comes to people outside of the cult . LRH was a really shitty person Bob ..and he did really bad things to other people …there is no way around that . The fact that you have to speak in code and are afraid that people are going to find out that you are here ( gasp ) speaks for itself …and it’s not because of a little runt like DM .

              p.s this is me being nice …;)

            • Bob

              Yes Kim you are being very nice. Well I will not get into but I went through some very serious Sh-t. I hope some day to write about it. But for now its not practical. But although it may not seem like it I am through the worst and I am so relieved to be through with the BS. But I have seen many things both very good and very bad and that’s why I sometimes sound like I am defending Hubbard. I no longer believe a lot of what I was indoctrinated with. But I still know what I have seen. And that is not easy to discount no matter what any says. And regarding those who were outside Scn. No hedging. I am effectively preventing people who never were in from going in.
              I live a very interesting life. And I still have a lot of repairing to do.

            • Sandy

              Luv you, Bob

            • noseinabk

              Congrats Bob!! I am sorry you still need to keep a foot in the door but understand why. I hope that the bunkerites will continue to treat you with respect. I know some give you a hard time for your views and I get it. I just do not feel the need to belittle sci ex’s. ANY of us could have had the misfortune of either being born into a cult or sucked in at a young age.

            • stop acting like he is being attacked …he is not . All the damage that has been done to him has been done by scientology and scientologists ..not people on a blog just having a conversation .

            • Bob

              Yes, I have mixed feelings regarding what my life would have been like without Scn. I think there would have been less misfortune. I wasted much time and money in the cult. I am hoping I can now make up for lost time.

            • jensting

              for most humans the extremes between which they fall do not include locking kids in chain lockers.
              NEXT!

      • The other day I can across a remarkabel photograph, used by Marty Rathbun on the cover of his book: http://www.amazon.com/Scientology-Reformation-Mark-Marty-Rathbun/dp/1479277266/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364151067&sr=8-1&keywords=Marty+Rathbun#reader_1479277266

        Why is this picture remarkable? Because in official Church media you rarely ever see a picture of LRH with another recognizable person. We are to believe the millions have enthusiastically used Dianetics & Scientology since DMSHM was published, but other than his mother (who’s picture is on lronhubberd.org, Commander “Snake” Thompson, Tom “Madfeathers,” and of course, DM, no one else connected to LRH or the Church is worthy of mention.
        Why is this? The only reasonable thing I can think of is that the don’t want to lend any credibility to anyone who might say anything negative about LRH or the Church, either in as-of-yet undiscovered writings of unidentified or deseased people (like the ones on the cover of Marty’s book), or in the possible futures of current members on good standing who may defect ro be declared supressive in the future. What Dan Sharman does is not histtory, it’s propaganda.

        • Bob

          I noticed this long ago. It is like a form of communism. All for the group. And the only one we notice is Stalin. LRH, COB. If anyone is ever acknowledged it is for propaganda purposes.
          I concur with you 100%.
          I feel that Hubbard got on the path of erasing the past and went way overboard to erasing everyone who is part of the church past good or bad.

    • LongNeckGoose

      I think it was in the video of “The Shrinking World of L. Ron Hubbard” where he actually said on camera, “There never was a second wife” though I think he meant to say that Mary Sue was his second wife.

      • FistOfXenu

        I think the whole thing says something like “I didn’t have a 2nd wife. I have a 3rd wife and we’re happily married” or something. I have to go back to it and write it down when I get a chance.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          He was too stupid to figure out that he “should” have said…I’ve never had a third wife!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            winner

    • jensting

      They’re just not that bothered. I still remmeber searching for Xenu on the official site. And getting a hit 🙂

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Had coffee now. I have never seen the above cover version of Buckskin Brigade. Isn’t that Tom Cruise staring back at me? Is this a Miscavige version, hmmm?

    I’ve only seen the original and I believe the second cover. Here’s the 1937:

    [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/vox5yb.jpg[/IMG]

    • Sherbet

      Is the bear eating a turkey leg?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Ask Captain turkeyleg Howdy?

      • Captain Howdy

        That’s not a bear. That’s a Rorschach test.

        • Sherbet

          It’s an allegory and a metaphor.

          • FistOfXenu

            An alligator too? So not a bear. That works too.

    • stillgrace

      I wonder if Tom got paid for this? In his younger days, of course.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Doesn’t it look like Tom? or just me? Tom seems to get well rewarded any time he’s Tommy Good Boy.

        • stillgrace

          Photo on left was taken earlier. I think it’s him and I think TC’s fellow Big Being is responsible for coverboy.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Tom was blonde for his vampire LeStat role in the 90s.. I prefer him as a brunette.. We’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto..

            http://www.freakingnews.com/Tom-Cruise-Pictures-12671.asp

            • Observer

              I prefer him … well, actually, I never prefer him.

            • stillgrace

              That’s a good shoop. Confession: TC has never done anything for me, blonde or brunette. I have always found Terence Stamp irresistible, however.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Wot? That’s going in your ethics folder, missy.

            • stillgrace

              S’OKay. My husband already knows! Whenever his image is on the television screen, Mr. Grace says “Hey, there’s your boyfriend!”.

            • sugarplumfairy

              when I was 13 I saw an old film of his called ‘the collector..’ very creepy and I never forgot him..

            • Captain Howdy

              LOL you beat me this time. That was one of my favorite books when I was young and later on I found out it was also the favorite of many serial killers.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Hey, It made me paranoid.. and extra careful around strangers with vans..

            • stillgrace

              What about his role as Frank in “Far From the Madding Crowd?” Sweet Xenu! In his debut role as “Billy Budd”, he was nominated for an academy award.

            • Missionary Kid

              It sure had me on the edge of the chair when I saw it in ’65. I still remember Samantha Eggar’s luminescence, but I forgot that Terence Stamp was in it.

            • Captain Howdy

              How about in “The Collector” ?

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Sweet….and I was this close to takin’ a nap!

            • Captain Howdy

              That’s just what I’m getting ready to do.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Hell ya!

            • Captain Howdy

              Easy girl.

            • Schockenawd

              On the other hand, I had a huge crush on TC after Top Gun came out. I was so disappointed to realize he was just a pretty, self-important moron.

            • Sherbet

              Watch out, Schock. Remember Katie Holmes had the same crush AND posters of TC hanging in her girlhood bedroom, and she grew up to marry him. You could be next.

            • Captain Howdy

              And ended up looking like she was living in a women’s prison. Oh wait, she was.

            • sugarplumfairy
            • Schockenawd

              Yeah, no.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Ooh, I wonder if Marc Headley or any commentors can story this one?

      • Captain Howdy

        “I wonder if Tom got paid for this?”

        i doubt it. It’s Slappy screwing Tom once again. Slappy probably thought people would subliminally react to Tom’s visage.

    • The turkey leg the bear is munching on is just out of frame.

  • sugarplumfairy

    If lrh really was a blood brother, I’m pretty sure his tribe-assigned name would be Speaks with Forked Tongue.. Kevin Costner can play him in the blockbuster film version of Buckskin Brigade..

  • SP ‘Onage

    In 1985, church leaders produced a document that they say proves Hubbard was not lying.

    Typed on Blackfeet Nation stationery, it states: “To commemorate the seventieth anniversary of L. Ron Hubbard becoming a blood brother of the Blackfeet Nation. Tree Manyfeathers in a ceremony re-established L. Ron Hubbard as a blood brother to the Blackfeet Tribe.”

    The document actually is meaningless because none of the three men who signed it were authorized to take any action on the tribe’s behalf, according to Blackfeet Nation officials.

    The document was created by Richard Mataisz, a Scientologist of fractional Indian descent. Mataisz said in an interview he tried to prove that Hubbard was a Blackfeet blood brother but came up empty-handed.

    “It’s not,” he said, “something you go down to the courthouse and look up.”

    So Mataisz, using the name Tree Manyfeathers, said he held a private ceremony, made Hubbard his own blood brother and, along with two other men, signed the commemorative document.

    “You should not give it (the document) very much credibility,” said John Yellow Kidney, former vice president of the tribe’s executive committee. “I don’t.”

    http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-24/news/mn-1013_1_blackfeet-blood-brother

    • LongNeckGoose

      I think the one at the LRH Life Exhibit on Hollywood Blvd. has a gold seal with red ribbons on it. You can’t get more official than that!

      • SP ‘Onage

        Wat! No feathers? 🙂

      • Bob

        Yes you can, it could have been signed by Geronimo or SittingBull. Who cares that they were dead by then.

  • N. Graham

    I’ve always loved the Blackfoot references for the lulz, so was especially all over today’s report. But this is the toughest vote yet and I’m going to think awhile. Mr. Atack vs. the website that I read his book on. Wow.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Exactly. There’s the basketball team, and then there’s the individual player. Tony wisely has closed his Complaint Dept. during season finals.

  • Vertsurblanc

    Tony.
    Here is a dare.
    Write something that is useable and valid that Hubbard said.
    Hubbard wrote tons of things on tons of subjects.
    I will try one:
    If I said to you “Tony, my mother died”. You might say “I am sorry to hear that”.
    If I then said, that this happened 20 years ago, it changes the significance of what I just said to you. I dropped time from the information. This made it illogical and changed the importance of what I said.
    Hubbard made a simple observation that if you drop time from a steam of data, it can make it illogical. This is good to know, among other things, by anyone engaged in the evaluation of data in any way.

    I know you or your audience can counter this admirably by saying this or that or the other is bad or wrong or worse. True. I am not asking you to agree with his philosophy or his organizations in any way.
    But, my dare to you is to write something, like the above, from anything he said, that is useful and valid.
    What do you say?
    Greenonwhite

    • Captain Howdy

      “What do you say?”

      Tell Steve Hall..Hi..and..Goodbye.

      • SP ‘Onage

        heh!

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…Hubbard wrote tons of things on tons of subjects…”

      Here’s a dare for you.. Name another author whose voluminouse work you have to wade through to find anything that makes sense? What do you say?

      • coonellie

        Most stuff written by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi…almost all the stuff written and said by Sai Baba, Mary Baker Eddy’s, “Key to the Scriptures,” oh, gosh, and how about the Philokalia (okay, a collection, but talk about incomprehensible), to name just a few. My bookshelves are full of completely nonsensical writings. That should tell me something, but I’m not sure what ;).

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lol.. You’re right..

        • FistOfXenu

          Hey, you forgot that Osho guy. Nitrous oxide and diarrhea in 2 languages.

        • Missionary Kid

          Your bookshelves are telling you that you’ve spent a lot of money on paper.

        • Have you ever tried to wade through the Urantia Book?

          • coonellie

            Oh, that brings back a complete disconnect with reality as we know it…so, the answer is, “yes.”

          • Observer

            Ohhhh, Urantia. A friend of mine and her children were abandoned by her husband after he got sucked into that. She described some incredible and heartbreaking changes in him after he got involved. (This was pre-interwebs so the only way to get firsthand info would have been to contact the group, and I wasn’t THAT curious.)

          • coonellie

            Oh, I’d tried to block that one out of my memory!!! I couldn’t, simply couldn’t get past the first few pages.

    • SP ‘Onage

      Now you say you have to be absolutely truthful. Sincerity is the main thing, and truthfulness is the main thing and don’t lie to anybody … and you’ll get ahead. Brother you sure will. You’ll get ahead right on that cycle of action, right toward zero! It’s a trap not being able to prevaricate … This makes life more colorful!

      -L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course, lecture “How to Talk to Friends about Scientology”

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        The only way to control people is to lie. Also, I like the one about the only way out is the way through … the exit door. Oh, and a fav, children are just little adults without a post so get their butts to work.

        • SP ‘Onage

          Yeah, he also said, ‘he was nearly run down by a train on Venus.’ XD

          • Observer

            It was a metaphor.

            • SP ‘Onage

              Like Xenu.

            • FistOfXenu

              I am NOT a metaphor! I am … an alien!

            • SP ‘Onage

              I ♥ Xenu (…)

            • FistOfXenu

              You’re making me blush. Hope you don’t mind green.

          • RMycroft

            That’s from the Between Lives Implants lecture 23 July 1963. It’s part of the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course which is done by the “Dukes of the Auditor Elite”.

            My copies completely lack the “just a joke” or “just a metaphor” annotations.

            • FistOfXenu

              Now you know why Demented Midget has to “correct” the unalterable Source.

          • FistOfXenu

            Remind me was that before or after he went sunbathing in the Van Allen Belt?

      • Bob

        It’s funny because now a days. You have to be absolutely truth in your sec checks and with ethics officers etc. they want the whole truth. That will set you free. Lying is a huge sin in Scientology. Hubbard never lied. Not as far as clams are concerned.

        • FistOfXenu

          Ironic isn’t it how the lying liars lie and lie while they insist everybody else has to tell them the truth. But it’s not unexpected. They learned it from LiaRon Hubbard.

          • Bob

            Yes very. Hubbard is still an enigma to me to some degree. He was sometimes spot on and sometimes full of BS.

    • John P.

      If I said to you “Tony, my mother died”. You might say “I am sorry to hear that”.

      If I then said, that this happened 20 years ago, it changes the significance of what I just said to you. I dropped time from the information. This made it illogical and changed the importance of what I said.

      What you said is a complete non sequitur. What if, before the snippet you quoted, “Tony” said to the speaker, “Gee, you look sort of down”? And what if the person then went on to say, “And today is the 20th anniversary of her death?”

      The idea of “dropping out time” inherently making something illogical is utterly bizarre and is yet another example of Hubbard attempting to pass off gibberish as some sort of amazing revelation.

      My challenge to you: Find something in Hubbard’s works that a) works and makes sense and that b) he didn’t borrow from at least one other source.

      What do you say?

      • Bob

        John P. – that is a valid request. In a few cases Hubbard states that he has come up with something original. Mostly he states that he is rewriting or reorganizing wisdom from the past. Since most of his writing is from that category it would be very time consuming to track down one of his completely new revelations. So that is a good challenge JOHN P. There is a great deal of restated wisdom in Scientology. Most of it is based on earlier teachings. Hubbard is open about the fact that he was compiling the wisdom in an efficient way that a person in a western culture would be able to assimilate.

        There are commenters who state that everything Hubbard wrote is complete BS. but if you count as his writing, materials from other brilliant writers or books then its not all BS. There are very view writers who don’t draw from earlier events, stories or teachings.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          KSW, bob, KSW. You’re glib. You don’t Know Hubbardology. I do.

          • Bob

            THDNE- don’t just make a blanket statement about how glib I am. Enlighten me. I learn a lot from the comments made about what I post.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              99.9999999% of everything Hubbard wrote he said he was the first to “discover” it. And everything you do in scientology is preceded by KSW, ie., You agree that everything was Ron’s idea first and the only thing that works. Hubbard then wrote more volumes denouncing any other works of any author or scientists or doctors or engineers or holy men. Even the laundry man didn’t know what he was doing. If you’ve read even 10% of Hubbard, you would know this. Hence, glib.

            • Bob

              THDNE- thanks for the concise response. Glib does not quite describe what you mean. That indicates my thoughtless commenting, or my insincerity. It is more my lack of understanding or stupidly regarding KSW.
              And as is often the case, my comments are not complete.

              It was always my understanding that Hubbard drew much of his knowledge from earlier work.
              I re-read KSW and from that perspective you are right. But my understanding of KSW refers to the Tech which established, going up the bridge, which is centered around auditing and freeing ourselves from our reactive minds.
              Supposedly Hubbard claims to be the first to develop that. So I appreciate your comments because demand that I clarify what I am saying.

              You may still disagree with me but I think I am more specific.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I think she nailed it with glib.. but she should have added irritating..

            • Bob

              Since I do not conform to your way of thinking I am glib. Then I assume then, that this blog is only for those who conform to a prescribed point of view. At least that is your perspective. Or do you enjoy the occasional wack job that provides irritating entertainment. Almost all forms of entertainment have a protagonist and antagonist.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Dibs on antagonist..

            • Bob

              You are my favorite!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Thanks.. Do you by any chance have a van?

            • Captain Howdy

              And some ether ?

            • Sherbet

              Oooh, The Collector reference again.

            • Bob

              LOL. I cannot answer that.

            • Be careful, young lady – your infatuation with Bob may end like this:

              She was poor but she was honest,
              Though she came from ‘umble stock,
              And her honest heart was beating
              Underneath her tattered frock.

              But the rich man saw her beauty,
              She knew not his base design,
              And he took her to a hotel
              And bought her a small port wine.

              It’s the same the whole world over,
              It’s the poor what gets the blame,
              It’s the rich what gets the pleasure,
              Isn’t it a blooming shame?

              In the rich man’s arms she fluttered
              Like a bird with a broken wing,
              First he loved her then he left her,
              Now she hasn’t got no ring.

              Time has flown – outcast and homeless
              In the street she stands and says,
              While the snowflakes fall around her,
              ‘Won’t you buy my bootlaces.’

              It’s the same the whole world over,
              It’s the poor what gets the blame,
              It’s the rich what gets the pleasure,
              Isn’t it a blooming shame?

              Andrew

            • sang to the tune of Gordon Lightfoots -Don Quixote

            • Trustmeonthis

              I was sure it was supposed to be sung to the tune of Gordon Lightfoot’s “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.”

            • sugarplumfairy

              I’m thinking if I import the bootlaces from Bangladesh and add some bling, mark them up 500% and recruit some cute urchins to sell them on street corners (charging each of them an exhorbitant franchise fee, of course), it might not be so bad..

            • noseinabk

              Andrew, you rock!

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Sometimes we also have a grammarist.

              But I am definitely not it!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Bury! Thank goodness you’re here to take over.. I’ve been talking way too much..

            • BuryTheNuts2

              I just been tryin to catch up. Did ya’ll have bloody mary’s for breakfast?

            • sugarplumfairy

              And lunch!

            • Bob

              Nor I. 🙂

            • FistOfXenu

              I’m a gramparist. Close enough?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              r u still in? if so, I highly suggest finding your way over ar ESMB and OCMB. tons of specific references and issues. it’s a personal journey and sounds like you will benefit from wading in the pool. it is not easy or without bumps. Here, it is like I have said, promoting the excellent rope tying skills of the KKK just doesn’t go over well as a point of discussion.

            • Bob

              THDNE. I stated that several moons ago. And I have availed myself of many specific references as well as information I did not know existed. Unlike many commenters I am current and first hand with the church and as well I have read a great deal of info from numerous sites including the ones you mention.
              With that in mind I have written comments that lambast the church, Mouse caviage and others who commit their crimes. But sometimes I also see another perspective based on seeing some good stuff and some really bad stuff that only I and the victims know about.
              To some I look like a troll. Perhaps that is not bad as maybe OSA does not know what to think. But lately I feel I may be getting to much attention and that is courting disaster. So if I disappear from the comments section you will know why.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              your well being comes first. Esmb thread on good things in sci should help. if u know of crimes or abuse please see a lawyer, legal aid, for help on reporting. do not reply to my comment. stay safe. as far as whats good, doesnt matter if you are miserable. family, friends love are the most important and worth your time and attention. look at hubs own family. it says all u need to know, honest. good luck

            • Bob

              Thanks THDNE. When I was a full blown clam I did not fully understand how important family is. I was tainted by my Sci-programming. What a change when I came out of my shell. I am so much happier and able to be with my family.

              It is a fine line wanting to help right the wrongs and at the same time I know I do not want to do anything to jeopardize the good relationship I have with those I love. Regarding abuses, they are the kind that are not easily reportable but they are major violations as far as I am concerned.

            • noseinabk

              Oh no Bob. You should NOT consider disappearing from the comments!! Your view may not be popular to some at the bunker but just think of the lurkers who may benefit. Besides, I think BRN and Howdy, and a few others have your back.

            • Bob

              For now I am not going anywhere. And I feel I am getting to know some of the regulars and I like their challenges and their encouragements. But you make a good point about the lurkers. I was once a lurker and thanks to the site and commenters I made the change to active poster.
              On the surface Scn looks all sweetness and light but underneath that is the fear machine will holds clams in their shells.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I want to know your story… I want to know just where you go to secretly log onto the internet and covertly type in Tony’s site address, looking over your shoulder, worried, nervous, sweating about discovery. What have you seen, what do you know.. just what could you share with me (us) if only you were provided with a safe place to do so. I want to know… but I know I can’t know yet. Something has you risking your lifestyle, your connection with your family, and doubting the validity of your beliefs, LRon and his tech, the probability that the most ethical people on the planet are in reality just the opposite. It’s driving you to stick your toes in the water with sharks.. and sometimes we bite, but it isn’t life threatening, you discover, it’s actually enlightening… and slowly, but surely, we’re leading your mind back to where it came from. Clarity, independence… freedom. Keep coming to us… we are here to help you, and everyone else who is lurking and watching your story unfold, dying to know where you go secretly to log onto the internet and covertly type in Tony’s site address…
              😀

            • Bob

              I can’t quite figure out if you are poking fun at me or your post is straight forward. I will say that the idea of me nervous, sweating and looking over my shoulder makes me laugh. If you clarify I will answer appropriately.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Nah, I’m not poking fun… I was being dramatic, I suppose, and more laughing WITH you, as opposed to AT you. But, in saying that, I meant every word. I want to know your story better, but it is hard because you can’t share it completely yet, and it’s a big part of why you believe and think the way you do. I think coming here is good for you, and its good for us too, because it makes it clearer how the ‘other side’ thinks, and if we want to help free them then we must understand this. I’m a straight up wog so I don’t have the indepth knowledge others have, nor the hurt of having been trapped and duped, so perhaps I’m more willing to explore your viewpoint than others, but it doesn’t mean you’ll convince me of anything, just that I’m willing to hear it to gain a better gist of the whole debacle. Plus, if you have evidence or anecdotes of wrongdoings/crimes/gobsmacking behaviour them I’m dying to hear it all.

            • Bob

              EOb, Cool. I learned to dislike the word WOG long before I got out. I used to correct other clams. They would usually agree with me when I explained it is demeaning. You hit on one reason why I post. I want to give points of view that are current. I am not interested in proselytizing. But there are things I think are practical and I will recommend certain books to new people with a big caveat to buy them at amazon and not from a mission, org or Scientologist.

              I don’t have time now but I will try to give some pertinent info and what it has been like for me.
              It sucks that I can’t just lay out the chapters in chronological order. And there are many fascinating stories of us who has been in and then escape. In the ensuing days remind me and I will try to shed some more light on my little corner of the universe.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Awesome! And don’t worry about the ‘wog’ any more. You can see that we’ve taken from the Scilons the slur it was meant to be and turned it into a badge of honour… worth more than the stripes on DM’s old Sea Org uniform… 😉

            • Bob

              Yes, I kind of got that. Even before I decided I was out I disliked the attitude of them and us. So typical of all orthodox religions.

            • FistOfXenu

              You forgot the dilitante agonist. That’s me.

            • Bob

              To me you are a protagonist. I love your acronym. The FOX

            • FistOfXenu

              Thanks but I think I’m still dabbling compared to a lot of people here.

            • Bob

              Ok, but your points are often very accurate.

            • DeElizabethan

              Bob, I found an interesting article you may like.

              http://isene.me/2013/03/21/invalidation/?replytocom=34826

            • Bob

              DE- thanks, I very early on realized attacking back made no sense. I try to find something about someone’s comment that gives me a chance to clarify what I was trying to say. Makes me look things up, re-read material etc. in that way I have seen a change in my view of Scn and what I am saying and how I am saying it.

            • Captain Howdy

              I think Bob is being sincere and he’s not advocating for LRH or the Tech. Remember he’s still suppose to be in the Church, so some of the stuff he’s saying seems pretty bold to me.

            • Bob

              Thanks CH. I think a lot of commenters still don’t know my position. I have debated many times whether it is wise for me to post. I still do not know how far reach the long hand of OSA Extends. I credit Tony and you commenters for helping me see the light. That does not mean I don’t have my own way of looking at this whole topic. I am learning a lot and I am dedicated to seeing the church going under or changing it criminal ways drastically. And I can’t say anything about how I am contributing to that for reasons of security.

            • FistOfXenu

              Hi Bob. Here we are again having this conversation. I think we should call it the Bob tale, not because you’re guilty of something but because it drags on and on because so many people keep missing the explanations and it starts all over every day or 2. Don’t let it get you down. We’re all coming from different places and we all get a little nervous sometimes. Your way of looking at the topic is a contribution to the big picture. No law out here says you have to be right all the time. And you know you have to protect your family from the consequences if you get caught here. So do what you can and what you have to and don’t worry if some of us ask the same questions over and over. And in the meantime some of us already know you’re okay.

              Tony if you’re reading this, any chance of putting the shreds of Bob tale from since he started posting here all in 1 place? You could call it “Bob’s passport” and he could use the link every time somebody else is suspicious because they don’t know the background. And you know some of those posts are interesting for what they are.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Bob doesn’t need a passport.. he can come and go as he pleases as we all do.. And voice any opinion, like we all do.. But when he waxes nostalgic for lrh or his writings, I just can’t keep it in.. It’s the writings and the tech that have done all the harm.. Bob’s a big boy.. He can take it.. And if he’s been in a long time, I’m pretty sure he can dish it out too..

              Btw, who knew the Fist of Xenu could be so thoughtful?

            • FistOfXenu

              Shhh! Don’t draw attention or people are gonna expect it from me. I was just thinking how hard it is to have to be on that tightrope like Bob is and how he doesn’t need the rest of us in this circus throwing stuff at him right now. I don’t take it as nostalgia I take it as trying to explain how what people inside feel isn’t as black and white as we’re used to talking about here. But I’ve been wrong before so maybe I’m wrong now too.

            • Bob

              FOX, yes you described very well what keeps happening. Suggesting Tony have a posting like that is probably better than me having to repeat my story periodically. But Tony has a lot on his plate and I would rather he concentrate on more new stories or his detailed expose’s.
              I am inured to the responses I sometimes get. But it must be really boring for some of you all after awhile. I am just curious about what the OSAbots think.

            • ParticleMom

              I appreciate your comments, Bob. Your point of view seems to be evolving and your J&D improving daily (something I am not very good at doing.) You seem to have been in for a very long time, of course it will take time to realize your thoughts may not all be your own.

            • Bob

              Thanks PM, there was a constant stress when what I instinctively knew and what I was suppose to believe did not mesh. Caused me a great deal of grief. I have been sorting that out for sometime now.

            • Trustmeonthis

              I say, hells yeah, Bob! You don’t just write, you read. I respect that. And, that you are sticking your neck out to be here and work it out for yourself. Props.

            • Bob

              Thanks TMOT. There are several reasons I am posting. One is that I hope some of what I say supports the activities that will bring down the current church. And two I am learning a lot. There is risk. I think it is worth it.

            • stateofcircle

              Let’s not forget that “L. Ron Hubbard” was just his current body, the one we are familiar with, when he wrote all of these great things. Ron the Thetan, who bestowed so much of his wisdom upon us, has inhabited the body of a great many of scholars, thinkers, writers, scientists, etc etc etc, so obviously Ron the Thetan did in fact discover all of these awesome ideas, just in another meat dress, for instance Sun Tzu, Socrates, Thomas Edison, Cecil Rhodes…I mean, the list goes on. So to all of you despicable idiots that believe for one second that he wasn’t the amazing genius he incessantly tells us he is, you’re obviously just jealous that your thetan’s meat dress wasn’t as pretty as his. Go find a better body next time.

            • John P.

              Hubbard’s “meat dress” is nowhere near as fashionable as Lady Gaga’s: http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/248898/slide_248898_1480324_free.jpg?1346945725000

            • FistOfXenu

              Nice one John. Makes me wonder if her BTs got confused by a meat dress wrapped in another meat dress. And when she took the meat dress off her meat dress did some of the BTs stay with the wrong meat dress?

            • Ze Moo

              It think you’re on to something. Lets start the ‘confuse a Body Thetan’ church. If they can be confused into believing that they are R6 or some other identity, we can confuse them more.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Je1CEPkUM

            • FistOfXenu

              We need an emblem. How about a quarterpound of steak cased in thin layer of plastic and worn like a medallion?

            • Missionary Kid

              Let’s do it easier: a quarterpounder with cheese.

            • Espiando

              But in France, we’d have to wear a Royale With Cheese.

            • Missionary Kid

              I had to look that one up, but one of the sources that showed up, ironically, was JT in Pulp Fiction.

            • Espiando

              Bingo.

            • FistOfXenu

              That’s just the basic level membership. If we’re gonna make this work we have to reg people to spend serious cash. And of course they have to buy the steaks from us, regular steaks have to be declared squirrel tech and out ethics and punished severely.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’d like to see it made into a big medallion.

            • FistOfXenu

              Definitely. A big steak for $10000 a pound, sealed in plastic with a big gold ring all around the edge and a gold chain. So tacky even Mr T wouldn’t wear it.

            • Missionary Kid

              Perfect. You’re making my Sunday good.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              So true. im going to Qual now to erase

            • stillgrace

              Thomas Edison??? Oh puhhleeeeeze! Your lack of real knowledge is showing!
              Tesla fan

            • stateofcircle

              I was going to go with Tesla, but he died after the Hubster was born.
              ….then I realized Edison did too.

              oops

              No matter, I’m sure Ron the Thetan, with his incredible ability to exteriorize, could thetan-hop from one meat suit to the next. Which would explain his astounding prowess in the field of physics; he was obviously occupying Einstein and Planck when their greatest discoveries were made. That’s the only explanation, since LRH is the only true genius to ever mysteriously float (I’m guessing that’s how thetans travel) over the great planet Teegeeack.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Yeah, they’re pretty good and still out there doin’ their thing.

              http://www.youtube.com/user/TeslaTheBand

              …oh, is this NOT who you meant? 😉

            • Captain Howdy

              Didn’t LRH originally have a preface in Dianetics where he said he drew inspiration from the works of Aristotle, Freud and others, and then it was removed later on ?

            • Bob

              All removed. No acknowledgements in his new books.

              I think COB has unearthed data that LRH also invented television, skateboards and Justin Beiber,
              Of course Justin was Frank Sinatra in his prior lifetime.

            • Captain Howdy

              Bob I think the acknowledgements were removed from dianetics when LRH was still around.

            • Bob

              Not sure. could be. But once he got sick he was not involved much in the church. Just self medication and obsessed with trying to heal himself. I am sure that the powers that be did not want any other philosophers taking Hubbards limelight.

            • Observer

              Bob, I hope you keep cultivating that sly humor of yours … I choked on that Bieber crack!

            • Bob

              Thanks that encourages me to be a posting jester. I thought that was funny too.

            • hogarthian

              But then you go and make me howl with laughter!? I’m as confused as you are Bob.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              yep. then soon after, all were sp or useless or just wrong. paranoia and self medication erased all but the invisible little people.

            • FistOfXenu

              99.9999999% of all plagiarists claim that they were the 1st to write 99.9999999% of everything they wrote. That’s just plagiarism and plagiarists for you. The thing with L Ron Humptydumpty is that he had to plagiarize. If he didn’t steal stuff that really works from people that know what they’re talking about, he wouldn’t have been able to sell that crock of horseshit to anybody at all.

            • hogarthian

              I don’t think you do though, really?, do you? Maybe you sometimes think a little about the comments posted, but that’s not the same as learning. I only presume that you’re struggling with where you are psychologically at the minute because your comments give that impression. But, sadly, they also give me the impression that you’re indulging yourself in an entertaining wind-up exercise.

            • Bob

              Hogarthian. The best answer to your question is to read all my posts and responses. I have been posting before your joined the blog as a commenter. If you have read them all then I will give you a response if you still feel the same way.

            • hogarthian

              Oh, the irony! Essentially, you’re asking me to trawl back through everything you’ve written, ‘word checking’ it all, to ensure that I have grasped the true meaning of the message you are trying to convey and attempt to truly understand the inner workings of your mind? Errrrrrrr, no thanks. I’ll just trust my instincts, if that’s ok.

            • Bob

              Essentially you made a judgement about me based on very little information. I did not seriously think you would waste your time looking up all my comments which are sometimes to wordy and sometimes incomplete. Since I assume you did not spend a good portion of your life brain washed and then you slowly woke up and had to deal with sorting out your life which was going down the tubes, I then figure that you might want a little more information regarding what the process of decompression might be. For me it has been slow but rewarding.

            • hogarthian

              Jeez, you’ve done it again Bob. My tail is now firmly between my legs (there’s that Labrador comparison again). I’m sowwwy! 🙁

            • Bob

              LOL. Why be sorry. Their your instincts. I post to give my view of this subject. I can’t predict how commenters will respond.

        • sugarplumfairy

          aaaaaaggggghhhhh…

        • sugarplumfairy

          Must go lie down now.. Head hurts from beating it against wall..

        • jojo neal

          “Compiling wisdom in an efficient way:? Efficient, hell. He took the bleeding obvious and turned it into turgidity. Western culture doesn’t need his compilations, thank you very much.
          And your last sentence shows that you’ve been reading him way too much. Edit, edit, edit.

          • Bob

            I will clarify. I am talking about the first few basic books. Not the trillions of words on his tapes and in his tech and admin volumes. That stuff is the essence of the brain washing. And yes I used to read him way to much. Not currently.

            • jojo neal

              Bob, if you want the world’s wisdom, get a copy of ‘The World’s Wisdom’ by Huston Smith. You’ll see that the originals don’t need any ‘compiling’ (i.e. regurgitating) to be understood.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Eastern culture doesn’t need it either.. So lay off India, Thailand and Japan, co$..

          • sugarplumfairy

            You go, Sheepherder..

            • jojo neal

              I am known! All is lost!
              We just had a newborn in the house, by the way – she’d gotten down in the mud and we had to bring her in and warm her up. That’s what I do for lulz –
              And thanks for the cheer. I don’t mean to be hard on Bob.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I don’t, either.. I only mean to be hard on lrh..

          • FistOfXenu

            Of course he did. You can’t charge thousands and thousands of bucks for something obvious. But once you make it a big mystery people don’t know what you’re talking about so they keep paying because they hope they can buy understanding.

          • Bob

            Thanks, will do. As I,said in an earlier post. Used to read him to much. Not lately.

        • Schockenawd

          Just curious – what about fair game? You know, the ostensibly (though not actually) cancelled policy Hubbard authored, under which thorns in Scientology’s side could be injured by any means, including being “tricked or sued or lied to or destroyed.” A Hubbard original?

          • Bob

            I think Hubbard got that from the Japanese, on how to fight and destroy your enemies. and what about the prince by machiavelli. He did not invent that. He just promoted using it unmercifully. Even though the church says they don’t do that anymore. Good luck. I wouldn’t want to go against them overtly right now.

        • hogarthian

          “There are very view writers who don’t draw from earlier events, stories or teachings.” Yes, you’re right. Khalil fucking Gibran springs immediately to mind. However, there’s a world of difference between the motives behind the piles of shit you can find in the ‘self help/spiritual enlightenment’ section of your local bookshop and the insidious, world dominating intentions of ron ‘dr. evil’ hubbard.

          • Bob

            Yes. I agree. But for mr the verdict is still out on Hubbards true intentions. I have experienced and have seen first hand the negative results of how people have f/cked people over in the name of Scn. And I watched the Hubb directly handle people and situations. So it does create a conflict or confusion. I figure I will sort it out. That’s why I keep observing and reading on a continuous basis.

    • 1subgenius

      A dare?
      Really?

      • hogarthian

        He’s telling someone to whom words, their meaning, and how to use them to communicate, are the tools of his trade? Giving a wordsmith the benefit of a masterclass? Bless. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in Tony’s office when he read that nugget of wisdom.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      The only way to control people is to lie your ass off. Also, I like the one about the only way out is the way through … the exit door. Oh, and a fav, children are just little adults without a post so get their butts to work.

      Are you turning blue and cringing yet? What’s that? That’s not what he said exactly? That’s right, bud. I dared to paraphrase And not give the exact reference. I’m sorry to make you feel uncomfortable on purpose. That discomfort will make you want to flee the meaning of those Hubbardisms instead of facing them. You will hide behind your wall of acceptable phrases you plastered brick by brick. You have assigned great comfort and value in them and I understand it is hard to let any go.

      You come here seeking a value. If they were real bricks, they would be useful. The problem is they are not real. Stand in the halls of a mental asylum and you will hear endless gibberish but every once in a while, there will be a comment of brilliance and insight. What good is a helpful idea if it is buried under a pile of destructive insanity? This is why I and many others are no longer interested in diving into the cesspool for a shiny penny, even a real one.

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        well said THDNE!

      • hogarthian

        yup, well said!

    • SP ‘Onage

      Yeah, Tony. I Double Dog Dare Ya! Lmao

    • Another Hayakawa quote is apt here: “Before going into a discussion of the rest of the chaff in dianetics, let me state my position at once: there is no wheat”

      • Sidney18511

        Hayakawa said that not only did LRH write science fiction, he wrote fictional science.

    • 10oriocookies

      Here is something useful. FUCK OFF!

      • Now, now 10’…….forgive them, they know not what they do… 😉

        • 10oriocookies

          I forgive, but do not forget. Trying to get someone to talk nicely about a cult is a pretty bold move. Maybe they should go back to the i love Ron forums and talk nicely with other Ronbots.

      • hogarthian

        I knew someone else would have done it!

    • Ze Moo

      Your solipsism is just as convincing as Lrons. It is by relating to others that information is passed. Not by knowing how to know….you know….

      • noseinabk

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

        UUmmm yea, I knew what this word meant. Just in case you need to word clear this.

      • Vertsurblanc

        Do you mean just like “what’s the difference between a duck?”

        Interesting comments attached to my original.

        Tony, I still dare you 🙂

    • man – i am glad i am not your mother

    • Espiando

      You’re trying to scrounge around for validation right now since you’re still in and you feel you need to have some sort of “soft landing” in order to get out with some semblance of dignity intact. Guess what? You gave up your dignity and your right to it by staying in. Yeah, I’m not granting you beingness. You don’t deserve it. Pathetic clubbed seal.

      • jensting

        Cruel, but the absence of response makes you right. Sad.

    • Dropping time from a stream of data does not of necessity make a statement illogical. It may, as in your example, make the reaction of the hearer different but the fact that the time-frame has changed only changes the reaction of the message’s recipient. It may prompt me to probe whether there is still healing needed on the speaker’s part or that the speaker is just stating a fact. Neither of these alternatives has any bearing on whether the statement is logical or not.

    • What was rendered illogical by the removal of time? The example above demonstrates a misunderstanding of logic.

    • jensting

      You want us to quote something that the fat fraud stole from someone else? Not a big challenge.
      But while Freud and others might have come up with insights that L Ron Hubbard could rip off, I find Hubbard’s original contributions so much more compelling. Like locking kids in chain lockers. Now THAT takes a true humanitarian. Not.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Your point is stemmed in good old fashioned common sense, and neither did LRonny discover, invent nor be the first to disseminate this idea. He might well have said leafy green vegetables are good for you… well duh!

    • Trustmeonthis

      Make money. Make more money.

    • hogarthian

      Seriously?! You dare him? I’m imagining your facial expression as you composed the above. I can only think of Ricky Gervais’s Office character. Smug, self-satisfied, deluded, superior… in the way that only the truly deluded can be. I haven’t read the responses to your post yet, but I’m thinking they’re gonna be the cyber equivalent of throwing stones at the village idiot.

      “What does he say?”….. I hope he tells you to Fuck Off, but he won’t, so I’ve done it for him.

      Good luck to you.

  • Ze Moo

    A little Indian boy asked his father, the big chief and witch doctor of
    the tribe, “Papa, why is it that we always have long names, while the
    white men have shorter names – Bill, Tex or Sam, for example?”

    His father replied, “Look, son, our names represent a symbol, a sign, or
    a poem for our culture not like the white men, who live all together
    and repeat their names from generation to generation.

    Also, it is part of our makeup that in spite of everything, we survive.

    For example, your sister’s name is Small Romantic Moon Over The Lake,
    because on the night she was born, there was a beautiful moon reflected
    in the lake.

    Then there’s your brother, Big White Horse of the Prairies, because he
    was born on a day that the big white horse who gallops over the prairies
    of the world appeared near our camp and is a symbol of our capacity to
    live and the life force of our people.

    It’s very simple and easy to understand. Do you have any other questions, Little Broken Condom Made in China?

    Lron’s indian name would be ‘bloviating buffalo’.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Lol.. Yah.. I vote for that..

    • RMycroft

      Big Heap of Buffalo Droppings!

  • 10oriocookies

    I pity da foo who makes up lies about his life!!!!!

  • WOO HOO tomorrow are the Sunday funnies and the day after the birthday celebration! I can’t wait!

  • Love what Jon Attack DID, writing his book: “A Piece of Blue Sky”. He wrote that and I’m not sure what happened to him, afterwards. He’ll always be, imnsho, one of the “Founding Fathers” (per say) of the critic movement, each having the courage and using it to speak out when there was no Net, no “Other side that was OK”..nuttin. I hope he returns to tell us more.

    In the meantime, OCMB has flourished, Certainly Andreas (who runs XENU.NET) was KEY to my fully waking up and getting OUT. And OCMB has continued to offer a safe place for both critics and ex-Scientologists to meet, talk, share experiences, as well as post FACTS unknown to the average person or most Scientologists about this insidious organization–ALL of which has helped others wake up and get free, and also helped peeps learn why NOT to join the insidious, phony “church” of $cientology. My vote is for OCMB.

    Great article, Tony O, again as well as many good points made in the comments! However, I will say I do think some of these matches….well….perhaps you may consider doing one after where we all suggest our matches after this is done, as you did before? Thanks for ALL that you are doing!! This IS an encyclopedia, really 🙂 Love ya ALL Tory/Magoo

    • jensting

      I though taht teh criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology sued Jon into bankrupcy over the book. That’s when you know it’s a good book.

  • Sidney18511

    Mike Rinder paid tony a complement on his board today’ so that might be what is sending some “believers” over here.

    • Sherbet

      What’s the link to MR’s blog? I lost it.

    • noseinabk

      Mike R post:
      “I respect Tony enormously. He is a courageous man who cannot be intimidated.
      And he has a great deal of compassion for those who have been abused.

      While many in the media have been cowed by the church through legal threats
      and intimidation tactics, nothing has ever scared him. And believe me, there is
      a lot he has never even reported on that has been done to him, his family and
      colleagues. I put him in the category of Joe Childs and Tom Tobin, John Sweeney,
      Janet Reitman, Larry Wright and Bryan Seymour. But unlike everyone else on the
      list, he has no organization supporting him, he stands alone. And even when he
      was at the Village Voice, this is not the BBC or Australian national TV or the
      Tampa Bay Times nor even the New Yorker or Rolling Stone.”

      Karen posted also.
      http://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-ideal-org-trickle-down/

  • chukicita

    I can’t let this go by without saying something – About 15 years ago when I was majoring in Native history, I called my major prof’s friend John, who was then director of Blackfeet Studies at Blackfeet Community College in Browning, MT. He confirmed what I already knew, that the ‘blood brother’ thing was a Hollywood construct. But he also told me this. When Elron was four, the Blackfeet people were being forced to become farmers and not allowed to live the way they had since the arrival of horses. And with all due respect, Mr. Atack, during this time Indians were being shot from trains for sport, and the Bear River massacre that killed over 200 men, women and children was fresh in living memory, so begging at the train station for firewater money doesn’t seem super plausible although it would fit with many modern stereotypes. According to the director of Blackfeet Studies, it was hardly likely that any Blackfeet would be even talking to, much less befriending a little white kid in 1915-16-17.

    • TonyOrtega

      Thank you for that r-factor, chukicita

    • Missionary Kid

      Thanks. I imagine him continuing to change schools as a kid and making up stories of his past as he went to make himself interesting. In person, he probably was a pretty good storyteller, unless you listened closely.

      • chukicita

        So was Ted Bundy.

        • Missionary Kid

          Bundy’s pre-execution tale of being led into his serial killing by pornography was just one more convenient lie. He was as truthful as LRH.

        • jojo neal

          Good point. One I’ve often wanted to bring up when someone who knew lrh talks about his personal charm. Bundy had tons of charm. A sociopath has no core self, so he can be anything he senses that his victim wants.

  • kemo

    That’s a 1924 T.J. Hileman photo of “Old Tom” from the Glenbow Museum in Alberta, Canada. Enter “Hileman” in the Photographer/Illustrator field on the search page
    ;
    Old Tom is on the 1st page of results. Note that the photo directly below his is “Mad Feathers”, a name that Lawrence Wright associates with Old Tom.

    There is a second “Old Tom” (1910 photo by Harry Pollard) in the Provincial Archives of Alberta; see .
    Same person?

    Keshet

    • The captions indicate that “Mad Feathers” was of the “Piegan” tribe but since the photographer is Albertan that would be the Northern Piikani branch of the Blackfeet, not the Southern Piikani found in Montana (related, of course, but separated since the 19th century), while “Old Tom” was of the Sarcee (also called Tsuut’ina), a very different tribe (language of the Athabascan group related to Navajo more southerly and Chipewyan and others up in Yukon and NWT; as opposed to Blackfoot, of the Algonquian group related to eastern tribes around the Great Lakes, like Ojibwa and Potawotami, and New England, like Mohegan etc., and also the Cree of Quebec). A couple of people on this thread have mentioned that Blackfeet at that period were still under attack from the whites and would not have been using “Christian” names. So: Ron has conflated a couple different people he found in photographs, “Old Tom” not even from any branch of the Blackfeet, and though “Mad Feathers” was actually Blackfoot, he was not from Montana and Hubbard’s childhood self could not possibly have encountered him.

      • kemo

        Let’s be clear about the photographers and Old
        Toms since there are two.

        Old Tom #1 (the photo that the CoS is using to
        “prove” Hubbard’s tale): Photo taken by T.J.
        Hileman, who lived in Kalispell, Montana (where
        Hubbard spent time at his grandparent’s ranch).
        This photo is part of the Hileman collection at
        the Glenbow Museum in Alberta. The museum
        identifies Old Tom as Peigan (that’s how they
        spell it) and says that Hileman photo’d the “Blood
        and [South] Peigan (likely in Montana)”.

        Old Tom #2: Photo taken by Harry Pollard, who
        lived in Calgary, Alberta. This photo is part of
        the Pollard collection at the Provincial Archives
        in Alberta. The archives identify Old Tom as
        Sarcee and says that Pollard took “hundreds of
        pictures of Alberta Indians”.

        So we have one Piegan from Montana and one Sarcee
        from Alberta. I’ll defer to your superior
        knowledge about American Indian and Canadian First
        Nations tribal identities as I know nothing of
        that but… Old Tom #1 is “Piegan” while Old Tom
        #2 is “Sarcee”. Are these 2 Old Toms the same
        person? If so, Old Tom in photo #1 is 14 years
        older than he is in photo #2 (taken in 1924 and
        1910, respectively). Or do the different tribal
        identities argue for different individuals? I
        don’t know. I find it hard to compare a full-face
        image (#1) to a side-view (#2), though there are
        similarities. Certainly Hubbard couldn’t have met
        Old Tom #2, in Canada, but #1? It’s possible
        (though I think improbable).

        Re “Mad Feathers”: I have no idea if Mad Feathers
        is in any way related or associated with Old Tom.
        I thought it an odd coincidence that Lawrence
        Wright referred to Hubbard’s medicine man as “Old
        Tom Madfeathers” (something I had not read before)
        and then a photo of “Mad Feathers” pops up at the
        Glenbow Museum site directly below the photo of
        “Old Tom”. Curious, that’s all.

        Re “Christian” names: I don’t know about that
        either except that there are a few photos in both
        the Hileman and Pollard collections that are
        captioned with “Christian” names. For instance:
        Joe Big Plume, Martin Breaker, Betty Hunter, Jim
        Rabbit, Herbert Lawrence, Johnny Ground, Mike
        Short Man, Mike Oka, Annie Sanderville. I can
        certainly believe that Indians may not have used
        such names among themselves but perhaps did when
        dealing with whites.

        Keshet

        • chukicita

          (hi Keshet :D)
          It’s not whether Natives used so-called “Christian” names among themselves – some did, some did not, there is evidence of this on many rolls. Some folks used one name for one group of people and another for different people. But one thing’s for sure,the white folk were the ones who *wrote down* the names they were given.

  • chukicita

    Also the photo called “Old Tom” was taken by T.J. Hileman (1882-1945) a commercial photographer known for his photos of glaciers and Piegan and Blood Indians. Hileman took another photo of one called “Mad Feathers.” Both these photos were taken in the mid-1920s. Hileman was the official photographer of the Great Northern Railroad. Hileman wasn’t always really accurate when it came to captioning his photos (See “The Blackfoot Papers” by Adolf Hungry Wolf). But it’s possible Hubbard saw both these photos later, and made up the name “Old Tom Madfeathers.”

    • Captain Howdy

      Thanks for the info.

  • Espiando

    Hello to everyone coming over from Mike’s blog after his and Karen’s positive remarks about Tony. We’re happy to have you here. However, there are a few things you might want to know about before you proceed:

    1) In general, we don’t like Scientology here. No, not just the Church of Scientology. Not just DM and the Sea Org. We don’t like the “philosophy”, the Tech, any of it. There are lots of people here who have been damaged by it, physically and mentally. Tony spends three days a week (one day with Claire Headley, another with Vance Woodward, and another with Jon Atack) taking the piss out of LRH. We in the peanut gallery laugh at these articles. Please note that we’re not laughing with LRH, we’re laughing AT LRH. We’d like nothing more than to shove an ARC triangle straight up the asses of the True Believers.

    The people who still believe in the Tech, like our beloved Karen de la Carriere, who post here have recalibrated their expectations based on this fact. Don’t go looking for a positive word about LRH here, and you’ll be fine. It’s all entheta, all the time.

    2) Do not object to Boson Stark using the term “Dianutty”. You can word-clear this as “Book One” and be fine.

    3) 10oriocookies and CoolHand are former bigwigs at Narconon Arrowhead. CoolHand, in fact, is Lucas Hatton, the former president of Narconon Arrowhead. Do not try to defend Narconon here as being helpful, no matter what Rinder said about it in today’s comments. They will explode.

    4) dbloch is a former member of the Sea Org who was persecuted by CoS for something very intrinsic to his being, showing exactly what a narrow-minded twit Hubbard was. Do not defend the Sea Org around him. Also, do not use the term “1.1 on the Tone Scale” around him, or for that matter, ever on this site.

    5) John P. is not to be trifled with. Global Capitalism HQ makes OSA look like a petting zoo.

    6) OTVIIIisGrrrreat is funny. If you have bad-trip acid flashbacks to your time in by reading him, it’s your fault. You should be used to that concept by now.

    7) Lurk Moar and get to know the regular posters here. Then figure out a way to not get on their bad side. There are lots of exes here who are very good at TR-0 Bullbait. There are also lots of never-ins, like, for instance, me and Captain Howdy, who are just vicious bastards.

    I’d come up with three more, but then I’d be accused of ripping off KSW by having ten points. Of course, LRH could take ownership of that, because, for some unknown reason, Moses didn’t file a trademark.

    • sizzle8

      Are you speaking for Tony?

      • Espiando

        Just sort of flew over your pin head, didn’t it?

        • stillgrace

          How about “civil”? Will that work?

          • Espiando

            “Civil” is not Default Mode for me. I have to work at it, and sometimes it’s too much effort.

            • stillgrace

              Thank you. Please try. sizzle8 was probably just wondering why a relative newcomer to the bunker assumed the role of room monitor. That’s OK with me, but some may be wondering.
              Is WWP your homebase? I enjoy WWP, but it’s the “more or less consistent” civility of the bunker that makes it my homebase.

            • Espiando

              First of all, that “Thank you. Please try.” definitely comes across as TRs or auditing. So nice of you to take on Scientology’s valence. Second, I lurked for months before posting, so I’m not that much of a “relative newcomer”. WWP used to be my home base; I haven’t posted there in a long time. And one’s idea of civility is another’s rudeness. I hate to tell you this, but I am being civil, for me. If I dropped the civility, your head might explode.

            • stillgrace

              Whatever. Have seen sizzle8’s comments many more times than yours!

    • Moses did not file a trademark on the number Ten because:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk

      • Missionary Kid

        Ah! That’s why Ronnies words are etched on stainless steel!

    • Missionary Kid

      Thanks Espiando for explaining the community here.

      I’d also add to people who post here that you’d better have your facts straight, with good references, not the historical revisionist ones from Co$ that are based on LRH’s made up biography. I’ve made mistakes in some stuff I’ve posted here because I didn’t accurately check sources, and I got corrected – rapidly.

      The mistakes were not at all complimentary to LRH or Co$, which I detest. It didn’t matter.

      Espiando isn’t speaking for Tony, and neither am I. This is an observation of how things are on this list.

    • Are_sics

      Espiando — you too…. interfering with my ability to breathe! But I wish I wrote that. Props. And even more thanks.

    • ParticleMom

      Pollyanna here for those coming from Mike’s site 🙂

      While everything Espiando said about this site is true, you are welcome here. There is plenty of entheta and enturbulation and you can handle it! This entheta isn’t lies made up by SPs, it is the truth, backed up with documents. It is ok to doubt – actually, it is great to doubt as it pushes you to learn more.

      The reason many of us are here is to help stop the nightmare that is the COS. In other words, we want YOU to be informed and free. Some do it by simply providing the facts, others enturbulate to make people think.

      (Oh please let MidwestMom come back after Easter, she is so much better at this than I am!!)

      • Are_sics

        VTFU!
        Too.

      • jensting

        That’s kind of the important point. Everyone is welcome. This blog is like that. But people making unsubstantiated claims are yelled at (one example being the a.r.s. old-timer who was told to take his wishful thinking tales about Mike Rinder’s personal culpability and DOX or GTOF).

    • Captain Howdy

      Thanks for describing me as a vicious bastard. : )

  • EnthralledObserver

    Atack is making a resurgence and lots more of his original manuscript is seeing the light. The new version is sure to be interesting… he gets my vote today.

  • Are_sics

    Favorite headline ever. And “torturing the subjects AND PREDICATES????? I’m dying of laughter here, Tony! Usually it’s OTVIIIisGrrr8! that sends me to the oxygen tanks!

    P.S. – Today’s bracket is the toughest one so far, for me. and for the *least* contradictory reasons.

  • EnthralledObserver

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/27133/some-churches-operating-more-like-cults-than-religious-orders

    Just an article I found mentioning Scientology and tax exemption in Australia…

  • Randy

    Perhaps this was one in every of the explanations scientologist ar taboo to appear at any data regarding Hubbard that won’t printed or approved by the church. they cannot have individuals truly difficult his tales of group action, ending satanic cults & saving America from enemy submarines/mineral deposits. If individuals begin questioning his exploits, qualifications or the analysis that is the inspiration of Dianetics & Scientology, they will notice factor do not add up.


    attorney blackfoot

  • WOG with Attitude

    The is was from Lermanet

    Refresh

    What a fraud Hubbard was!