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In Scientology, When the Prices Kick Up, What Do You Get for the Money?

MoneyStackClaire Headley is taking us on our journey to train as Scientologists. She and her husband Marc were Sea Org workers who escaped from Scientology’s International Base in 2005. She spent years working with Scientology’s “tech,” and was trusted to oversee the auditing of Tom Cruise. Go here to see the first part in this series.

Claire, we’re starting to get into some serious money this week as things suddenly kick up. And that’s exciting. Up to now, we’ve noticed that our trip up Scientology’s Bridge to Total Freedom has contained a lot of repetition and rather simple concepts about communication, learning, and control. So far, there’s been no space opera and even less excitement in our Scientology training. But with the price increasing, can we expect some thrills?

CLAIRE: Well, Expanded Grade 0 is our next step, and it’s the level in Scientology that deals with communication on all “flows.” The ability gained for this level is: Ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject.

THE BUNKER: How…thrilling.

CLAIRE: “Flows” are defined as:

Flow 1 = something that happened to you.
Flow 2 = doing something to another.
Flow 3 = others doing things to others.
Flow 0 = you doing something to yourself.

And generally speaking, process commands are varied to reflect the above. For example, your auditor might say the following to you:

Flow 1 = Recall a time someone was in good communication with you.
Flow 2 = Recall a time you were in good communication with someone.
Flow 3 = Recall a time others were in good communication with others.
Flow 0 = Recall a time you were in good communication with yourself.

THE BUNKER: Those are…earthshaking. We went ahead and looked through all 18 processes in Grade 0, and found these other gems as well…

“Look around the room and discover some object which you don’t mind being present.”

From instructions to the auditor: “Have his shoe think a thought, have a rug think a thought.”

“Tell me a thought you would be willing to receive from another.”

“Recall another’s no-communication with others.”

“Spot some enforced knowingness.”

“Spot some owned sex.”

“What wouldn’t another mind others communicating with?”

“What solid could others have others understand?”

Claire, what are these universe-expanding consciousness-unlocking secret questions going to cost to have an auditor ask them of us a few hundred times?

CLAIRE: I’d say $2,500 per 12.5-hour “intensive” for a new person in a Class V org (the sort that you’ll find in most large cities). So let’s say we’re talking five intensives, for $12,500 minimum.

If these same levels are delivered to a more advanced student by a Class XII auditor (the highest level of auditor possible) then you’d be looking at $12,500 per intensive.

THE BUNKER: For that kind of money, and with questions like “Recall a time others communicated with others,” are we really unlocking the secrets of the universe?

Up_The_BridgeCLAIRE: Whatever you do, don’t actually say that out loud at the org. I truly believe a good portion of the language and labels of Scientology are designed to keep you in check and ensure you never question anything you are doing.

If you don’t come out of session with a life-shattering cognition and a Cheshire Cat grin, you are sure to be labelled NCG — No Case Gain, and, off to ethics you go.

Maybe there are some people who have serious difficulties with communication, and perhaps this material would help them. But I can think of numerous other things that would help at a much lower cost.

And here’s the kicker.

In 1993, Scientology leader David Miscavige issued an RTC order (called an IG Network Bulletin) decreeing that all grades had been “quickied” — Scientology jargon for cut short.

So he announced the “new and expanded” grades. He’d had every single process on communication exhumed from the archives and now these were the new and improved Grades.

The new versions were expanded to 40 to 60 pages of processes for each Grade level.

So for Grade 0, it was turned from something that took one to two 12.5-hour intensives into something that took a minimum of five to eight intensives.

Miscavige also decreed that anyone who was Clear who had not done each of the Expanded Grades had to go back and do them.

This is was what happened to me. When Miscavige issued these changes in 1993, I was Clear. The next thing you know I’m programmed to do all the Expanded Grades. I did them co-audit style with Katie Feshbach, daughter of Matt Feshbach.

Cut to 2004. Miscavige now “discovers” that the Grades are taking way too long.

He “investigates” and finds out that Dan Koon, SP that he is (and long gone so he can safely be blamed), added arbitrary processes to the Grades and made them way longer than they were supposed to be.

New and faster Grades are piloted, and suddenly they can be finished much faster. (I’m betting the new grades still haven’t been released to all orgs.)

THE BUNKER: Short, long. Either way, this is some serious coin for what looks like more repetition and mind-numbing material. When do we start getting to the wild stuff?

CLAIRE: It’s amazing to me, in retrospect of course, how much people will grind through in the hopes of finally getting to the OT Levels, the thing you only ever hear people rave about — OT abilities, OT perceptions, exterior with full perception, on and on and on.

I know for me, that was always what I was curious about — what were the OT levels all about. But we’ll get to that in due course.

THE BUNKER: At this point, despite what we’ve already paid, we’re still working on communication and other basic concepts — and reinforcing the layers of control. Amazing.

CLAIRE: Yep, you got it.

COST THIS WEEK: $12,500

COST SO FAR: $38,197

 
——————–

CTVStillMore Self-Promotion from the Fringes of the Internet

Your proprietor has been in steady demand since our story about Leah Remini filing a missing-person report on Shelly Miscavige broke Thursday morning. Yesterday, we were live on the television airwaves in Canada and on the radio in Los Angeles, and also on Sirius XM. Each was a little different, so we’re going to plague you with them today.

Note how generally good the questions are from each of them — the media is definitely getting smarter about Scientology and its controversies!

First up was our early-morning live appearance on CTV’s New Day program (though we were actually sitting in the CNN studios in midtown Manhattan). We can’t embed the clip, but if you follow this link, you can watch the segment.

Then, we were interviewed by Doug McIntyre on KABC 790 radio in Los Angeles…

And finally, we enjoyed a more far-ranging talk with Sirius XM host Brett Winterble…

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on August 13, 2013 at 07:00

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If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

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  • Robert Eckert

    Tony gets to Flow 2 without paying $10K!

    • sugarplumfairy

      And how ’bout that Flow 0.. So that’s what they’re calling it now?

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        I like flow 0.
        I can use this puppy!

        • sugarplumfairy

          Be careful.. Too much Flow 0 can affect your eyesight..

          • ze moo

            Will hair grow on palms??

            • Espiando

              If the last thirty-five years of personal experimentation in this area vis-a-vis a certain legend has taught me anything, no.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Only if you do it wrong..

      • USA MRIID

        Be sure to bring a towel!

    • Nevermore

      I think that’s been Tony’s plan all along – to do all the courses for none of the money – the book and the website etc are just disguises for his cunning plan!

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Hmmmm, he must be trying to justify that fancy clear bracelet!

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        :-O

        Say it isn’t so, TonyO!

        Such a poet, and I know it, but I better be careful, not to blow it 😀

      • Papa Xenu

        Smart idea, no visits to the ethics officer or high-priced sec checks, nobody asking for him to max out his Visa/MasterCard for “Ideal Org. doorknob endowments” & there’s no pressure to sign a billion year contract.

      • USA MRIID

        Tony’s going to kill us all when he gets to OT3 and we call get pneumonia.

        • Nevermore

          OMG, is that why my temperature is up and I have a cough???? Argh!!

    • USA MRIID

      He cheated! When he gets to OT3 he’s gonna die of pneumonia.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Hey, second base usually only costs a dinner and movie.

  • sugarplumfairy

    Is “owned sex” legal?

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      It was in Nevada!

    • tetloj

      Yes, but not pwned sex (except with a licence)

    • Papa Xenu

      I’m married & I still don’t own sex.

  • Observer

    Bridget to Total Freedom? That sounds like one of my typos.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      The fuckin moron tells people to talk to rugs! Crikey!

      Somebody loan me an ashtray….I need to yell at something!

      • Espiando

        But what happens when the ashtray spills on the rug? Do they have an argument? If so, do we have to clay demo it?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          E, we have to clay demo everything! And the EP of all this is we will need to wash our hands.

          • Espiando

            And we have to send the e-meter in for a Silver Cert since we got clay and ashes all over the cans.

      • aboutandout

        I am not proficient at posting pictures, so you will have to use your imagination but here is a lovely crystal ashtray. Maybe you can spend thousands, work with the auditor to see it…..lol. Or you can yell at me if that helps…lol

        • Robert Eckert

          Joseph Smith got some people into a state of sufficient faith that they could “see” and “heft” the golden plates.

          • junojones

            A radio DJ once sent a lady to my apartment in a panic on April first because she could not see the Space Needle after a DJ claimed it had collapsed.

            The experience of talking her down, the needle in full sight through my window, is something I will never forget.

            Human consciousness can be so plastic and I truly hate those that manipulate it for money.

      • Poison Ivy

        To all current and ex-actors out there, don’t some of these exercises just remind you of method and sense-memory classes?

        I can totally see why Scientology makes sense for actors – if they have any training at all, some of these exercises come right from what they’ve been doing for years.

    • Once_Born

      While queuing outside a club, a student is approached by a bloke who offers him to sell him some small black pills.”What do they do?” Asks the student, who is told, “they increase your IQ”.

      Intrigued, the student buys a handful, and takes one or two. After five thoughtful minutes the student suddenly says, “wait a minute… these are rat droppings!”. “See”, says the dealer, “they’re working already!”.

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        Well played 😀

    • Once_Born

      Bridget to total freedom – clean up on aisle three…

    • ThetaBara

      Oooh, good pseud potential! Someone grab it!

  • sugarplumfairy

    I bet, when miscavige watches your TV appearances, Tony, that he wishes he had someone so informed and well-spoken to work for him..

    Egggggcellent work!

    • shasha40

      If he did, he’d just end up banishing them to the hole for being able to articulate better than him , it’s the tiny dick syndrome.

      • Where’s Shelly?

        Heber was at his son’s funeral and asked his brother to stop trying to help him.

        • shasha40

          Probably because he knew he was going to get only rice , instead of beans and rice , when he gets back to the hole !

    • jonzot

      Tony, you have my unwavering support and respect, but PLEASE keep the Shelly Miscavige (and other executives gone missing) story as front-and-center as you possibly can. The mainstream media has a very short attention span, and right now there is widespread interest. The iron is hot!!!

      Even if there is nothing new to report regarding Leah Remini and Shelly, how about shining a big bright light on the disappeared: Ray Mithoff, Marc Yager, Norman Starkey, and of course HEBER (among others). The media and public has never been more interested. But they mostly don’t know about any of this! Part 12 of your series on “Why Dianetics is Bullsh*t” can wait until next month. Let the world know about all of these missing executives and bust this thing wide open!
      YOU have the power!

    • USA MRIID

      I miss Heber Jentsz. 🙂 “You’re on DRUGS now, aren’t you Dennis?!!12”

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    I have finally had a cognition about the brainwashing. These poor people have been bored into submission.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Bingo!

    • Nevermore

      That’s exactly what I was thinking. Am I Clear now??

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        You were, but now you need to go back and do the expanded boredom grades.

        • sugarplumfairy

          GAB2?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            I just about lost my coffee all over my friends car!

            • MO Mom

              You know what they say about drinking and driving, even if you are just a passenger….

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              Don’t do it?

            • Kitz

              Hence why I no longer drink my coffee whilst reading. I make sure that they are completely separate occasions. 😀

          • tetloj

            Ron’s gift of the GAB…golden age of boredom. Sounds about right.

            • ze moo

              More like the Golden Age of Babble…..

            • Observer

              The Golden Age of Bloviation

            • Maureen49

              The golden age of bovine scatology.

        • Truthiwant

          When I started auditing, at the begining I didn’t realize that all these long lists in the grades were infact actually auditing cycles. I thought that they were a preperation for auditing and infact almost until the end I thought that the ‘Real Auditing’ had yet to start.

          Put into simple language, the whole thing was completely useless and thank God I woke up.

          • ThetaBara

            I know I’m far from the only one who is glad you are out, and have made your way here!

            • Truthiwant

              I’ll be here up to the day that this shit house collapses.

            • sugarplumfairy

              i’ll be right here with you..

    • Once_Born

      Yes, they have. Seriously.

      They have been sitting in a plain room, for hours on end, concentrating on objects and endless, simple, content-free questions. This amounts to sensory deprivation. Combined with repetition this can induce a suggestible state of mind.

      Before you begin, you have been primed to expect a ‘win’. Everyone expects this of you, and encourages you to achieve it. Surprise! When a suggestible state has been induced, you experience exactly what you hoped for and expected.

      The problem is that, once you return to real life, that wonderful feeling evaporates. You want to recapture it. The CofS is there to assure you that you are making excellent progress – and you really need to move on to the next level…. come over here to the cash register…

      Rinse and repeat.

      • Poison Ivy

        Keeping political prisoners in solitary with sensory deprivation and then giving them a seemingly “good cop” guard can produce the same effect – gratitude and compliance.

  • BosonStark

    Right now my left shoe is thinking, “I’m glad his foot isn’t in me.” This was determined at a cost under $10,000.

  • Nevermore

    ‘Owned sex’. Sounds…….dirty….. 😉

    My right shoe, incidentally, disagrees!

    • sugarplumfairy

      It’s not dirty.. I think they mean sex while watching the Oprah network.. Sounds wonderful and very uplifting..

      • shasha40

        Bol, SPF , you slay me !

      • Nevermore

        I’d never heard of it myself – one programme with her is bad enough, but the thought of an entire network is bloody scary!

        • sugarplumfairy

          I love my Oprah.. she uses her powers for good..

          • Captain Howdy

            For good eats..and $40,000 handbags.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              She ATE Alton Brown? Damn!

            • joan nieman

              I have to agree with you Howdy.

      • Sherbet

        Hey, sugarplum, I’ve caught Mr. Sherbet watching Lifetime. Jeez.

      • Poison Ivy

        Ha ha!

        I thought “Owned Sex” meant Hubbard with his amazing OT-ness foreshadowed “50 Shades of Grey”

        • GlibWog

          Bleh.. Hubbard and Sex in the same sentence.. Gives me the Heebie Jeebies ugh

  • BosonStark

    The shoe thought, “I’m going to step on you rug.”
    And the rug thought, “Oh no, I’m going to be stepped on by a shoe, but I might like it.”

    (If Ron had said this during a lecture, the house would have thought this was very funny.)

    • Once_Born

      Having listened to some of the recordings of Hubbard {lecturing}, I think he sometimes tried it on, by saying the most outrageous things he could think of to gauge just how far he could go (and to mock his followers to their faces).

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        Yepper. This is a guy that sold people a frigging Bridge {to Total Freedom,} and they LUUUURRRRRVVVVVVVEEEDDDD him for it……..

        Good thing people can break the spell, and I think a whole lot are starting to see through the bullshit.

        • Studious Judious

          I can’t wait to hear the reports of the big events coming up in Clearwater. Woudln’t it be great if the still-ins revolted right then and there.

          • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

            Hell yes. It would be Popcorn AND Slurpees that night!!

          • USA MRIID

            You mean drag David from the podium and string him up? I’d buy a ticky to see that.

            • Studious Judious

              I wouldn’t like violence, but I’d love to hear that someone stood up and called DM out on some issue, and then the entire audience leapt to their feet yelling “Yeah!” “Where is Shelly?!” “Stop the regging!” etc.

            • Robert Eckert

              I wouldn’t urge violence, but if I heard that David Miscavige was on the receiving end of some violence I would consider it only karma. Indeed, I would feel some quiet satisfaction.

      • Observer

        And they ate it right up like good little sycophants.

      • Captain Howdy

        That’s a BINGO! it’s so obvious at times it’s unbelievable that people didn’t pick up on it.

        It’s like he was doing the Aristocrats joke for 30 years and he just kept building on it, making it more outrageous as he went along, and no one had the nerve to interrupt him and say “OK, I get it, I’ve heard enough, you can stop now”.

      • USA MRIID

        Just look at the “Clear Cognition” and you see that the insane conman really was trolling the rubes.

        • Once_Born

          Just looked it up. Amazing. Thanks for the tip!

    • Papa Xenu

      Consider the amount of “pinks & greys” he was doing, everything probably sounded funny & deeply profound.

  • Espiando

    Is Anon finally, belatedly, rubbing off on Tony? “Bridget To Total Freedom”, huh? If you don’t know what the Bridget meme is…no, this is a family website. A dysfunctional family, but a family nonetheless.

    Well, I do have to admit that it’s appropriate. Bridget’s a trap. Scientology’s a trap. Except that Bridget won’t cost you a ton of money and provide nothing.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      You sure about that? 😛

      • Espiando

        Well, I’m not sure about the ton of money part, but Bridget certainly has…well, something.

  • Aslansown

    Tony, I love your interviews. Keep them coming!

  • Truthiwant

    You wanna hear the ultimate bad excuse for auditing that doesn’t work?

    I had paid for my wife (now ex-wife) to go Clear. Saint Hill gladly accepted my cheque for £40,000 saying that it was the greatest good I could do in my life to help my wife up the Bridge. So my wife started her auditing. Our marital situation was on the rocks and this was, according to Saint Hill, the route to help that situation.

    Unfortunately it didn’t quite go as Saint Hill said it would.Things got worse and worse and I started to criticise the auditing and the auditors and a lot of other things. This eventually got me almost declared and I got what is called a ‘Trouble Source Type D’ declare.

    However, before getting the declare, I was told by at least three different Sea Org members, all long time staff and all OTs, that the reason the auditing was not going well was because…

    My wife didn’t pay for it herself and the fact that it was paid for her by someone else meant that there was no ‘exchange factor’ and hence the auditing might not necessarily have the full benefits.

    Can you believe it!

    • Observer

      Unfortunately it’s all too believable.

      • shasha40

        Yeah, we wish it was a mass delusion but know it isn’t . *sigh*

      • Truthiwant

        It makes you feel completely stupid to have put faith in their hands.

        • Nevermore

          Not stupid – we don’t expect those we trust or have faith in to betray us.

        • Observer

          Ron was a master con.

          • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

            Words can have a powerful effect when prettied up by a conman. Look at Randy Pitchford of Gearbox Software. MASSIVE liar.

          • Poison Ivy

            Exactly. Truthiwant, con people like Ron (and he will go down in history as among the greatest) are masters at deception for a reason – they know how to fool smart people.

            You were not stupid. You were human.

            And now you’re out, safe and sound, and helping others by telling your stories here!

            You never know who’ll drop in and read your “entheta” and suddenly decide to change his or her life.

        • shasha40

          No one that seeks knowledge or to better themselves should be seen by others as stupid. You and thousands of others were fooled by a snake oil salesman. Mainly, shame on Lrh for being that salesman , liar and crook.

      • Theo Sismanides

        I can believe it! you must have loved your wife so much that you as ised her! Doing things for one out of exchange does not mean any solution at all. Then you fully trusting to salvage your marriage through your wive’s going Clear is another desprerate route and the cult of course availed of it.

        • ze moo

          “Find the ‘ruin’ and play on it. Lroons Salesmanship 101.

          • Roger Larsson

            Mamas and the papas made the “Californian dreaming”. The mamas and the papas is a brain-teaser and a captain. Greece is the place where the idea of demo crazy was born.

          • sugarplumfairy

            I know.. Very disturbing..

        • Captain Howdy

          So Greece is pretty much completely “out exchange”, eh? Why don’t you Greek OT’s offer to help fix the economy with your super powers?

          • Theo Sismanides

            I wouldn’t expect Americans or even Europeans to understand what Greece stands for in the world. And though it’s been quite some time since that Golden Age of Greece, still there is much more to this place and this area around the Mediterranean.

            As to the economy maybe some of you would care to understand that the real suppressive was not Hubbard but the governments and their politicians and the NWO which shows up it’s ugly face more and more every day. Greece and Cyprus have been found with enormous resources of gas and oil so they have been under attack for a long time now by the Global Enslavers, those who just want to control all the power and the money of the world. The rich becoming richer and the poor poorer. That’s the new game and my philosophy (not the church you all talk about all day long) does not endorse that. I didn’t work for such a system and so I don’t have to obey that system.

            So, there are no OTs for me. OTs cannot be OTs just on their own. As long as there is no strong organisation of Thetans here on Earth, there is not going to be any OTness. And this is what I am working on and I will be working on. To unite Thetans in an effort to say to the world that Life is not just this but there is beyond what we call life. Some don’t like it and laugh, but some find it actually a great truth and a solution from this evil system that is being built around them day by day.

            Greece is another small country in all this game. When Alexander the Great was around though you wouldn’t mess with Greece because he would have cut your balls.

            • Once_Born

              There is an old legend that Alexander the great came to visit the philosopher Diogenes, founder of the school of cynicism. He stood over the old man, and asked if there was any he could do for him. “Yes”, said Diogenes, “stand a little out of my sun”.

              After reading your post, I know how Diogenes felt.

              PS: Should that be “Alexander the GRRRR8”

            • Theo Sismanides

              yes, that’s right. Can you ask Captain Howdy what Genghis Khan would have done with Diogenes, though?

            • Once_Born

              I did say it was a legend. Like OT powers, this story has nothing to do with reality.
              Genghis would probably have laughed, and then got drunk with Diogenes.

              PS. You’re missing the point, which is, stand a little out of my sun.

            • Captain Howdy

              NWO? What, no Illuminati?

              So you’re a multi-cultist, eh?

              Pfffft! Alexander was a ponce..Genghis Khan would have ate him with some fig leaves.

            • Theo Sismanides

              yeah, show us more of your barbariism Captain!… oh, you guys, don’t respect nothing.

            • Once_Born

              You admire a guy because, “he would have cut off your balls”, and then call the good Captain a barbarian? Besides, I thought the value of free inquiry and honest discussion among the great lessons taught to the world by the Greek city states.

              You should apologise to our resident cynic philosopher.

            • Theo Sismanides

              And hang him up your good old Captain upside down so he watches out next time he opens up his filthy mouth. Now, do you still have an MU on your Greek name or you want me to translate it for you?

            • Truthiwant

              I was always taught to stick up for my friends and I’m sorry to say to you that the Captain does NOT have a filthy mouth.

            • GlibWog

              Well, Sometimes, but we LOVE it.. He’s one of the reasons I joined.. So There!

            • Poison Ivy

              Do not mess with our Captain!

            • GlibWog

              SNAP.. You’ve been Read by PI Theo

            • Once_Born

              Yes please. What’s an MU, and what on Earth are you talking about?

            • Truthiwant

              An MU is Scientology language for Misunderstood. A word that you have a misunderstanding definition.

            • Once_Born

              Thank you – that’s what I thought… but, as I don’t have a Greek name, I didn’t understand how it was relevant.

              I realise now that he has mistaken me for Pronoia (despite my pretty prominent icon and name).

              So much for Thetan observation and communication skills.

            • Poison Ivy

              I happen to be rather fond of Captain Howdy’s “filthy mouth.” It kinda grows on you.

            • Captain Howdy

              Why did me calling Alexander a ponce piss you off so much? It’s a historical fact..not that there’s anything wrong with it. And so what he fucked his mom and had sex with wee teens? Hey, nobody’s perfect, especially if they’re conquering the world, eh?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Hey Captain, that’s fine. It’s morning now here, Just woke up. I am gonna have a cup of coffee. Maybe one day our ends meet. Meanwhile, I will give it a shot and have some good disqus here, lol. As much as I can because some of your folks really get on my nerves. But that’s life. Why would I be here if not for some… adventure. In the Lions’ den…! Tataaaaaa!!!

            • Eivol Ekdal

              I think you mean to say “cut your balls off”

            • Theo Sismanides

              I am Greek you know, so me and Alexander speak the same language. I wouldn’t mess it up if I were in your place.

            • Once_Born

              Actually, modern Greek is quite different from the language Alexander spoke.

            • scottishinlondon

              You mean Alexander of Macedonia, who colonised Greece?

            • cicely neville

              Ha, good one!

            • Milo MinderBinder

              I heard that Alexander quite liked balls, but not for cutting.

            • Phil McKraken

              So you can’t exteriorize to find a parking space if there aren’t any other OTs around? How nearby do they need to be?

            • Gerard Plourde

              The debt that Western civilization owes to Greece cannot be overstated. Much of the underpinnings of Western philosophical and scientific thought is based on concepts that were established and refined by the Greeks. I would also point out that Hubbard wouldn’t last five minutes in an intellectual discussion with the likes of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

            • Once_Born

              My personal favourite unknown Ancient Greek is Eratosthenes
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

              This man was the sort of polymath that Hubbard only fantasised about being.

            • joan nieman

              Oh Theo! Give it up! Put all that energy into feeding the poor, freeing children who are enslaved….forget about sitting for hours on end holding soup cans! Maybe make some soup or something…break away from your monotonous pastime!!! Do something!!!

            • Theo Sismanides

              Soup cans! Even if you had received auditing with “soup cans”, which I doubt, I know you had zero wins so why talk to me? talk to those people who unfortunately didn’t have the wins I had. And I just received too little of soup cans auditing, so you know.

              So don’t tell me to give up and feed the poor and the enslaved children’s bodies, I am freeing enslaved beings and that’s what Scientology is all about you like it or not.

          • joan nieman

            Woo Hoo! You tell ’em Howdy!

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Hey Theo. Still smoking? Thought so. Good day.

      • InTheNameOfXenu

        These Hubbardian Implanted Zone-Heads will come up with any excuse for why the ‘tech’ didn’t work. Stating the obvious that Hubbard’s bullshit doesn’t work won’t compute in their brainwashed heads.

      • joan nieman

        Ha ha! yes, we can believe it!

    • Racnad

      I’ve heard of PTS Type 1,2 and 3, but I never heard of a “type D.” What is that?

      • Truthiwant

        Source of Trouble Type D declare is a HCOPL 27th October 1964 ‘Policies on Physical Healing, Insanity and Sources of Trouble’
        “Responsible-for-condition cases have been traced back to other causes for their condition too often to be acceptable. By responsible-for-condition cases is meant the person who insists a book or some auditor is ‘wholly responsible for the terrible condition I am in.’ Such cases demand unusual favours, free auditing, tremendous effort on the part of auditors. Review of these cases show that they were in the same or worse condition long before auditing, that they are using a planned campaign to obtain auditing for nothing, that they are not as bad off as they claim and that their antagonism extends to anyone who seeks to help them, even their own families. Establish the rights of the matter and decide accordingly” LRH

        • Captain Howdy

          Oh yeah, the ole “They’re trying to scam my scam and get something for free” LRH type D trouble source

        • tetloj

          go to jail…do not pass go….do not collect $200

        • Noni Mause

          What I find fascinating about this is that as early as 1964 Ron was admitting that the ‘tech’ wasn’t infallible. There must have been multiple complaints to prompt this policy letter, yet scientologists still claim the tech ALWAYS works.

          • Once_Born

            I don’t think Hubbard was admitting that {the Tech} didn’t work.

            He was starting to invent {explanations} for its obvious failure.This one belongs to the class ‘blame the victim’. Other classes include the classic, ‘blame the SPs’.

            There are so many of these excuses, that can be applied to any situation, that I wonder if there isn’t someone out there who believes that {‘the tech always works – but Hubbard was the only person good enough to benefit from it – the rest of us are unworthy of his gift.}

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      Da fuq???

      Sleazy. Oh, so sleazy.

    • Papa Xenu

      The only thing I wouldn’t believe is that they apologized & sent you a refund.

      • Truthiwant

        Refund is not a word that exists in the Scientology dictionary

    • Doug Parent

      It’s a disservice to others to promise auditing will “fix” their marriage and it’s a gross misrepresentation. Auditing is for the person going into session, not their spouses, co-workers or their pets. I’ve witnessed and heard this over my 30 years in Scientology over and over. Promising that auditing will “fix” conditions that are unwanted, including illnesses, things is just a sales pitch. The only way I’ve seen auditing work is when a person approaches it in a manner that includes a desire to know more about himself for his own reasons, not someone else’s.

      • ThetaBara

        It is a disservice to promise that auditing will “fix” ANYTHING.
        Yet, Scientology promises that it will fix EVERYTHING. Which is obviously untrue.
        WHY DO SO MANY OF THEM STILL NEED GLASSES?
        Show me a “Clear!” A real one, who can do all the things that they promise. Or even some of the things!

        I’m sorry you were lied to and scammed. Most people get into Scientology for only good reasons, but bad things inevitably come out of it. It does not work. It does not “fix” anything.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          And the ultimate bad thing is to make someone disappear like: Shelly Miscavage, Heber Jentzsch, Ray Mithoff, Norman Starkey, Guillaume Lesevre, Marc Yager, Russ Bellin, Rena Weinberg, Laurie Zurn; all of these names come from M. Rinder’s own post, to which I take the liberty of adding Barbara Ruiz. Co$ needs to be destroyed.

        • Doug Parent

          “Yet, Scientology promises that it will fix EVERYTHING”. REALLY? WHEN and WHERE did “Scientology” say that? I never heard or read that in 30 years.

      • Noni Mause

        Doug, can you tell us what works about auditing?

        • ThetaBara

          Apparently not.

        • Doug Parent

          In the hands of a knowledgable and skilled practitioner who audits based on the fundamentals of the subject it can help people. Like anything else, irresponsible or poorly trained people can make a mess out of anything. There are many sources of info on how auditing works and what it’s basic principles are. If you are sincere in wanting to know, there would be better sources than myself to present it to you and better venues than a blog/

    • tetloj

      trying to come up with a comment for this one, but I’m stunned into speechlessness

      • Truthiwant

        Yeah, I know what you mean.
        I only remembered that fact when I read Tony’s article today.
        Often I think that I have told all my stories in Scientology and then a new Bunker article comes along which jolts my mind (Reactive Mind!!) and out comes a new story to share.

        • Poison Ivy

          God Bless your Reactive Mind!

          • Truthiwant

            I think the ‘Church’ would say that every single comment on this site came from the Reactive Mind.
            Long live the Collective Reactive Bunker Mind!

            • Observer

              Reactive mind = BS detector. That’s why Ron worked so hard to kill it.

    • Of course that didn’t stop them from taking the money in the first place. Man that is just beyond the pale.

      • Truthiwant

        I had money at that time and they knew it. Every pound I had in my bank account they knew about.

        One day I will tell the full story of how they extracted that money from me.

        I’ll just say one thing. The moment they knew I had money, they already considered it belonged to them.

        Scientologists jerk off in their pants when they are with somebody that has money. At that point, they don’t give a shit if they lie to you about what auditing will do for you.

        • Poison Ivy

          It’s tragic. Glad you’re here, Truthiwant.

    • USA MRIID

      The best frauds are where the victims believe they are the ones responsible for the frauds not working. That’s the nature of the best quality bunko frauds out there.

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      Yes we can believe it.

      People who do not pay for their own auditing have no exchange factor and so they usually waste time in session making wrong the very person who paid for their auditing — which is usually their 2D.

      As our auditors do not evaluate for the pc, the pc is allowed to drone on and on in session endlessly until their funds are exhausted. Therefore, it is not that their auditing was bad or didn’t work, it is simply the fact that the EP of paying for your 2D’s auditing is typically a breakup or a divorce.

      Then again, one can see why a more optimal solution is to lock away one’s troublesome 2D as COB has done.

      When Shelly went into the suppressive valence of Katie Holmes, COB locked her away rather than wasting his money to pay for her to get some out exchange auditing.

      Shelly is now very happy working in a CST vault: http://otviiiisgrrr8.com/2013/08/10/shelly-miscavige-is-not-missing/

      • Mark

        What was Katie’s suppressive valence made of? Percale or Egyptian cotton?

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          That is an excellent question Mark. Actually, her suppressive valence is a cluster that she was never able to blow apart in session due to her O/W’s on TC, COB, and the Church.

    • cicely neville

      Did I read that right? FORTY THOUS – WTF?
      Oh dear. Oh, honey, no. And it didn’t work? Gosh.

    • DamOTclese2

      So the “solution” was for the victim herself to fork over even more money to fix it. Typical Scientology fraud. Typical bunko fraud, in fact.

  • Vinay Agarwala

    Scientology is no longer a novelty. It is reduced to just a big hype. Today you can do Grade 0 by yourself at home using mindfulness. One can get the gains of Scientology and more without spending a single dollar.

    Here is the dope.

    http://vinaire.me/2013/04/06/running-scientology-grade-0-with-mindfulness-part-1/

    .

    • q-bird

      good to know, you can learn this sh*t without having to spend money.

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        I read OTIII awhile back, all free (my faveorite word, by the way,) and didn’t pay a cent, and neither have I got a killer cold yet either 😀

        I must have been prepared for it, after all 😀

      • George Layton

        Are funds trickling into the Org’s so slowly now that they have had to replace clay modeling with these?

        • ThetaBara

          Doubtful. Since they already can’t afford TP, where would they get the cores?

      • Vinay Agarwala

        LOL! Well said!

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      Hey, no squirrels allowed here! How dare you alter the tech! Beat it! Just kidding, man. Whatever floats your boat.

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        Don’t you mean “Whatever floats your needle?” 😉

        • InTheNameOfXenu

          Haha! Now that’s what I should have said!

      • Vinay Agarwala

        Don’t we want to take business away from Scientology, or don’t we?

        .

        • GlibWog

          Me? I just want the whole evil Hubs Empire ( ugh) to collapse … and DM join him ( Cyst Head) in Hell..

          • Vinay Agarwala

            Ah! Its nice to have dreams. But there should be plans too.

            .

            • GlibWog

              Well.. I am here. That is a good start.

            • Vinay Agarwala

              You sure are living it up! 🙂

              .

            • GlibWog

              Yep! I Yam, I Yam….Thanks Vinay

            • Vinay Agarwala

              LOL! I am living it up too!

        • Captain Howdy

          I want to shutdown scientology and all of the other magical thinkers on the planet. It’s just my little hobby.

          • Guest

            Sorry! I am for Harry Potter rather than for the Pope.

            .

          • Vinay Agarwala

            Sorry! I am for Harry Potter. But I shall support you against the Pope.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Awwwww.. Don’t be such a spoll sport.. A little magical thinking makes life interesting..

        • ThetaBara

          Personally, I’m hoping to see people wake up, rather than trade heroin for methadone.

          • Vinay Agarwala

            Gradients work better. You cannot do everything overnight.

            • ThetaBara

              I agree (and I often defend the indies for just this reason). However, at the end of the day they are still selling clam juice.

            • Vinay Agarwala

              In good time, dear Thetabara, in good time… you’ll have your wish.

              In the long run, what is natural, will prevail.

              .

      • Vinay Agarwala

        Squirreling is a good thing. It allows competition and takes away the monopoly that the Church of Scientology relies on. Also, with squirreling one can very quickly find out what is useful and what is not.

        Squirreling is the American way!

        .

    • sugarplumfairy

      Aaaaggghhhh! dope is right..

      • Once_Born

        I tried so hard to resist that line. Now I wish I hadn’t bothered.

      • Vinay Agarwala

        That is true!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      “Today you can do Grade 0 by yourself at home ”

      ^^^Yeah, some of us figured this out right away!!!!

      • Vinay Agarwala

        Of course!

    • Captain Howdy

      Confucius say “wax on..wax off” and “don’t get caught dead jerking off Grasshopper”.

      I think you’re about ready for that Great Head Shop in the Sky.

      • Vinay Agarwala

        A smart way to get Scientology out of business is to produce results better than they can, with no cost and without any liabilities.

        .

        • Captain Howdy

          Fortune Cookie say: “Don’t take man named “Captain Howdy” seriously”

    • ze moo

      “Observe things as they really are, not as they seem to be.” “When you woke up today, was in on an in breath or an out breath? Zen bullshit is still bullshit, just another flavor.

      • Vinay Agarwala

        When people do not see things as they are then they make assumptions, and then they get trapped in things like Scientology.

        .

    • nottrue

      i wish i could think of something nice to say

      • Once_Born

        It’s not your fault that you can’t. That sort of thing happens when a conversation passes beyond satire and achieves the surreal.

    • ThetaBara

      I’ve always wanted to do a TR-0 drinking game. You blink, you drink!

    • Grant C

      I support you stealing Scientologists from the malignant corporate cult 100%, doctor.

      Especially when it’s free.

      But I have to dispute that there are any “gains” to be anticipated.

      • Guest

        Gains never came from Scientology or its E-meter, but some gains were there. Where did those games come from?

        Hubbard never knew where those gains were coming from. I have examined his theories closely and they are full of inconsistencies. They would never work.

        The gains actually came from the preclears themselves who happen to apply mindfulness.

        Mindfulness involves compassion. Mindfulness was never intended by Hubbard to be part of Scientology.

        .

        • Grant C

          Great post, doctor.

          I was composing my reply, when I realized that you already agree with me:
          “Mindfulness involves compassion. Mindfulness was never intended by Hubbard to be part of Scientology.”

          Exactly. Indeed, he was planning the opposite. He was seeking to create mindless servants, and this was based on the Satanic beliefs he practiced shortly before he wrote Dianetics.

      • Vinay Agarwala

        Gains never came from Scientology or its E-meter, but some gains were there. Where did those gains come from?

        Hubbard never knew where those gains were coming from. I have examined his theories closely and they are full of inconsistencies. Those theories would never work.

        The gains actually came from the preclears themselves who happen to apply mindfulness.

        Mindfulness involves compassion. Mindfulness was never intended by Hubbard to be part of Scientology.

  • aboutandout

    Excellent interviews Tony.

    I have a question about the fees for auditing. The motivation to continue to take the courses is to get to the OT levels but would another motivation be the potential earnings for being an auditor. Obviously the members are well aware of the money they are spending for these auditing sessions. Are they led to believe that the auditor is being compensated / sharing in the profits?

    Meaning, if the member commits and makes it through the training / courses one of the bonuses is they can then become an auditor. The motivation would be they can then recoup some of their money by working for the church?
    I realize the money goes to the church but is that the carrot / bait n switch?

    • Interested

      Is this not the basis of a pyramid scheme?

  • Vistaril

    More great stuff from Clare and always great to see TonyO spreading the message across the media. And, yeah, ain’t it grand that the journos – finally – appear to have some background on this. Makes it more and more difficult for the Scientology “acceptable truths” to seep into the public consciousness. Personally, I would like to see more exposure of the fact that Scientology’s position as a tax-exempt organisation was fraudulently achieved and allows the cult to roost largely unassailed amongst “religions” worthy of that name. Talk about cuckoo.

    Alas, real life continues to “impinge” so I don’t really have the time to hang with the gang, but just wondering about this . . .

    I’d say $2,500 per 12.5-hour “intensive” for a new person in a Class V org (the sort that you’ll find in most large cities). So let’s say we’re talking five intensives, for $10,000 minimum.

    . . . when I was at school 5 x 2,500 = 12,500?? Just askin’.

    • TonyOrtega

      Thanks. Fixed.

      • Robert Eckert

        I thought maybe there was a volume discount, you know, buy four get the fifth free– but then I realized this is Scientology we’re talking about.

    • sugarplumfairy

      C’mon, Vistaril.. Will Smith taught me something.. Real Life is like water; it wants to go around stuff.. Stuff like our bunker obsession..

      • shasha40

        ” Will Smith taught me something “, now you’re scaring me . :O

      • joan nieman

        Bruce Lee used that philosophy about water. “Be like water my frieind”.

    • tetloj

      inb4 Tony does a Clare / Claire spelling notification

  • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

    Bloody hell Tony, you rock 😀 watching you do all these interviews really makes me think that it’s all going to crumble, soon and spectacularly, for David Mismanage.

    It’s taken me 3 whole effing days to read through THE FIRST PART of his 1990 deposition in the Bent Corydon case, he and his lawyers seem pretty frigging dense in them, but underneath it all, he is a cunning little stunt, so I hope he doesn’t get any chances to weasel out. I really want to see him in prison.

    • Studious Judious

      After reading that you realize that DM thinks he is so clever by saying things like “I don’t understand you mean by ‘guide’.” But when he gets on a roll, he runs on saying things he shouldn’t. Probably the worst possible person to ever put on the stand. Which is why I believe the Church’s legal team will do nearly anything to keep him out of the witness box.

      • Cher

        Oh, it really would be lovely if little boots was put on the witness stand. I highly doubt he would be able to maintain his composure for any length of time. He is not used to being questioned about anything or having to explain himself or his actions. I do not think he would do well under that kind of scrutiny at all. The very thought fills me with unmitigated glee!

        I know, I need a life

        • Observer

          And he’s not used to dealing with people who aren’t afraid/in awe of him. He’s just a wee little being in the presence of wogs.

        • Where’s Shelly?

          What if he jumped on the defense attorney and attempted to put him in a stranglehold during the trial? It could happen!

          • Poison Ivy

            YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE ENTHETA!

            • USA MRIID

              You don’t have the RANK!!22 to handle the truth!

          • Cher

            Would this be a strangle hold using his OT super powers or a literal strangle hold? Both would be acceptable but I admit I would much rather he use his OT powers. A girl can dream

            • Once_Born

              (Heavy breathing) “I find your lack of theta… disturbing” (end heavy breathing)

              Edit: For some reason, I have just remembered “Lord Helmet” from Mel Brooks “Spaceballs”.
              A very short villain..

            • Robert Eckert
            • Once_Born

              Thank you. I just knew someone would follow through…

            • Cher

              OB, I don’t think you are giving yourself enough credit. I’m sure the only reason Robert found and posted that clip was because of your untapped OT powers. The force is strong in you young Jedi

            • Once_Born

              Hmmm – pleased I am to hear it.

            • Cher

              Day made!

            • Cher

              Oh my goodness, I can totally see DM as “Lord Helmet”! Now, I’m going to have to re-watch Spaceballs” just so I can replace Rick Moranis for little boots!

              Btw, extra points for the Spaceballs comparison/reference. What we need is to have a virtual screening of it and have a real time running commentary. 🙂

            • Studious Judious

              I think “Lord Hemet” should be on MK list of names. Or was it Dark Helmet.

          • sugarplumfairy

            How awesome would that be..

    • Robert Eckert

      Yeah, you really can’t read that transcript in one sitting. You read as much as you can stand and come back to it later– MUCH later….

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        EVENTUALLY finished Part 1, but there’s no way in hell I think I can sit through Part 2.

  • shasha40

    Thank you , Tony for disseminating the ” truth” about COS . Hopefully more major networks here in the US will have you on for a chat. You clean up Very nice, not that I don’t love a , jeans and t-shirt man, just thought it was worth saying . With all this coverge lately, my family no longer thinks I’m about to join COS any minute. Hee hee

  • Racnad

    “Spot some enforced knowingness.”
    “Spot some owned sex.”
    Examples of the principle “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” This principle explains more than 50 percent of Scientology.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      WTH is “owned sex” anyways?

      • Nevermore

        Over to you, spf!

      • Captain Howdy

        I’m not sure, but you might try asking the Muslims.

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          No.

          That is all 😉

      • ThetaBara

        Sex in the Sea Org. Forced marriages, forced divorces, forced abortions.

      • USA MRIID

        For $20 I’ll show you. 🙂

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          $20? Bargain. Much cheaper than Sciloontology 😉

    • Poison Ivy

      I’d define ALL of Scientology’s bullshit as “enforced knowingness.”

  • BosonStark

    Listening to Tony’s radio interview, it makes me really wonder about Katie Holmes’ KR on Leah Remini. Was it about her questioning of the whereabouts of Shelly? Was it the Jennifer Lopez seating change? (Many an OCD bride has gone frigid for life over a seating change.) What was the ecclesiastical outpoint that needed such an action? Did Tom put her up to it? Did she write it up on her wedding night? Did Tom write a KR on Katie during the time of their divorce, or before?

    • noseinabk

      “Did Tom write a KR on Katie during the time of their divorce, or before?”

      Yes he did! It looked like this:

      • Observer

        Hahahaha!

      • q-bird

        from 6 years ago, a 2 minute parody, from before the divorce — http://youtu.be/XXNA6HsHRM0
        a little too close to the truth perhaps.

      • GlibWog

        OMG.. I am Crying here.. That is the funniest shit ..hahahahhaha

      • USA MRIID

        In fucking crayon, of course.

    • Papa Xenu

      I have a feeling Tom told her if she didn’t write a Knowledge Report, he & the church (per policy) would consider her complicit in Leah’s action & thus subject to the same ethics condition & consequences.

      • Observer

        Agree. Katie doesn’t seem like a person who would write gleeful KRs on people.

    • Poison Ivy

      I’m sure Katie was doing as Tom told her at that point. And it would make her look good, as a new Scientologist, to tattle on someone else.

      • ze moo

        Velcome zum die Nationalize Vorkers Parti. Ve half bean vaiting für dü. Draggin sie ein stuhl up zum die table and fill out the report on your ‘friend’. Now you vant to be our ‘friend’ don’t you???

        KR’s are an important step in brainwashing. It helps if the ‘reporter’ doesn’t really want to do the report. By getting the ‘reporter’ to lay aside their concerns and getting them to be a little bit ashamed of doing the ‘report’, you get the ‘reporter’ trying to justify the action by identifying more with the ‘group’. This is common to Stalinism, Maoism, National Socialism (nazis), Pol Pot and other totalitarian ideologies.

        • Poison Ivy

          Ah yes indeed. Exactly. By forcing the ‘reporter’ to shut down their inner voice, decency and conscience (“But really, she was just trying to get her friend a different seat at the table….”) and essentially lie (“She dissed COB and ruined my wedding”), you make the reporter ashamed of what she did, and thus this distances her from the object of her shame (Leah – the ‘criminal’) and brings her closer to the ones she’s reporting to (COB, her Big Being Hubbie.) Plus you can be she got love bombed like crazy for writing the report, and I’m sure there was lots of “Poor Katie, that PTS Leah ruined your beautiful wedding; we love you.”

      • joan nieman

        Very possible as she was clearly being controlled.

  • Studious Judious

    Thank you Tony, and Claire for these articles.

    I was one of the 60% who took one course and then never returned. I have since read through a lot of the leaked materials, but having it presented this way is much more enlightening.

    Can you imagine if Dianetics was actually able to correct poor vision? The membership would jump from 25,000 to over a billion in just a week. Multiply one billion by the cost of going clear. They would rule the world.

    The fact that this hasn’t happened in the SIXTY-THREE YEARS since Dianetics was released is proof that it DOES NOT WORK!.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      Yet the still-ins think it’ll, y’know, start working, once the Stupor Powerz!(TM) building is open………

      Which is, when, now, anyone? Any takers?

      Anyone?

      *crickets*

      • Robert Eckert
        • Mark

          Wind wails disconsolately… bell tolls mournfully in distance… tumbleweed blows slowly past… the rest is silence…

          • Poison Ivy

            🙂

    • Poison Ivy

      Wearing my readers right now – I’ll still never get used to them. If Dianetics worked for vision correction, I’d be a gung-ho Clam in a fake naval uniform right now.

      • Truthiwant

        It doesn’t correct vision but it does give you the thousand yard stare.

      • Phil McKraken

        … which is why I worship the guy (or gal) who invented Lasik surgery — whatever their name is.

    • USA MRIID

      Sure it works, Studious. Ya just got to pay a little more money and it’ll start working just fine. And if not, the problem is you. The solution is ya got to pay some more money. Have faith.

  • Papa Xenu

    If I understand Claire correctly, having to redo some of the grades would be akin to being in your last year of high school & just as your ready to graduate & attend university the principal tells you that they found a bunch of really important colouring books in the school’s basement that were never completed & thus you need to go back to junior kindergarten to finish them. Oh and by the way, since your in grade 12, it’s going to cost you several thousands of dollars (up front) because you need a highly trained/qualified teacher. If you object, you’re sent to the guidance councillor’s office (aka ethics officer) & that’s at least another grand. Yup, makes total sense . . . for the church of Scientology.

    • I’ve actually dreamed one time that I had to repeat junior high. I didn’t dream about doing the work, and I never knew exactly why I had to repeat it.

  • Sherbet

    Poor Tony. No more padding around the Bunker in your sweats and bare feet. Now you have to toss on a shirt and tie when TV summons you. Radio is still a good gig, though.

    • Mark

      At least we now know that Tony’s got more than one tie to his name (as an unemployed fanatic on the fringes of the internet).

      • Sherbet

        We don’t know for sure if he has any pants, though.

        • Mark

          Hee-hee! Tony, you were wearing trousers whan you gave that interview, I hope?

          (Media punditry can have odd effects: look at the likes of Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck, who probably wear restraint harnesses or incontinence pants behind their desks).

          • Poison Ivy

            Ha ha!

    • GlibWog

      Tony you are really burning the candle at both ends. And you’re trying to wrap up your book and striking while the iron is hot..
      I’m sure the Bunkeretts would understand if you missed a blog or two..

      ( HEY QUIT THROWING TOMATOES AT ME! I’M TELLIN )

      • Robert Eckert

        The wheels are coming off the train wreck as rats desert the sinking ship!

        • GlibWog

          I know Robert.. and I’m loving it..

        • joan nieman

          Sos! The ship is sinking!

      • Sherbet

        I just down-voted you for that, GlibWog. If Tony wants to post 14 times a day, I say, Let him!

        • GlibWog

          Hell, I would love 15 x Sherbet.. I can only imagine how tired he is.. But then one day he will be Rich.. Rich I tell ya..
          and he can Yawn all the way to the bank.. tee hee

          • Sherbet

            That’s AFTER the book tour.

            • GlibWog

              Ohhh Sher I hope he still come back and talks to us when he is ” Big Man on Campus .”

              I remember what happened to Dr. Phil sigh He stopped texting me! Damn I was lonely.

            • Sherbet

              Oh, Tony probably will have one of his minions throw us a bone from time to time…some stale bit of scn news just to keep the Bunkerites from revolting as we sigh, “Where are the snarks of yesteryear…”

              BTW, Dr. Phil no longer texts me, either, Glib. I think it’s because of the restraining order.

            • GlibWog

              <<<—–Dr. Phil's Baby ( What can I say Sherb) sigh..

              Yeah.. I can see it now… Top New's in the Bunker when Tony gets beyond Famous..

              " Amazing Meat Loaf Recipe Uncovered. " News at 11

            • Sherbet

              I see the resemblance in the hairdo, Glib.

            • GlibWog

              Sherbet.. ” Helllllllllllllllllo?? ” He denies it.. He said that his baby would never smoke.

              I told him.. ” If I were HIS kid I would smoke too..”

            • Sherbet

              Right, and his kid is going to need a lot of therapy from a REAL doctor.

            • GlibWog

              BAM! You know it Girlfriend

            • Studious Judious

              OMG I love you two.

            • Sherbet

              We’re taking our show on the road, StudJud.

            • i-Betty

              I’m laughing so much, too!

      • joan nieman

        I know Glibby, he has to get some sleep and rest. Hear that Tony? We love and appreciate you. You deserve the best. Lots of love from us!

    • USA MRIID

      ROFL! Oh yeah, that’s true, I didn’t think of that! Now Tony has to shave, comb his hair, stop looking like a “fringe meanies of the Internetz” walking around defrocked and bitter. 🙂

  • Mark

    “Flow 1 = something that happened to you.

    Flow 2 = doing something to another.

    Flow 3 = others doing things to others.

    Flow 0 = you doing something to yourself.”

    Yup, think I’ve got the hang of that:

    • Sherbet

      You left out the part where you turn over your credit card, Mark.

      • Mark

        I think it was already flushed away by the flow.

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          HA! 😀

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      Was also the first thing I thought to myself upon reading that Mark, but somehow I knew I could leave it to you to voice it 😉

    • ze moo

      Now do that again on the clay table.

      • Mark

        How much will it cost?

        • ze moo

          Sounds like one of those ‘Golden Age of TP 2’ courses, lets say 5 thousand dollars or 4 thousand euros {discount for ‘real’ money}. Add in IAS reging and a visit to the big box store for a pallet of TP and some clam clay {use only ‘official’ clam clay or ethics will get you} and you’re looking at 7 to 8 k for the whole excremental package. But by the end, you will know your shit.

          • Ciru

            You forgot to add three sets of Basics so another 9k.

            • Mark

              And the rest…

          • Mark

            Aagh! I’d rather use my own shit to make “clay demos” than face IAS regging!

  • pluvo

    “More Self-Promotion from the Fringes of the Internet”

    LOL.

    Tony, you rock!

    • Poison Ivy

      “The Fringes of the Internet” – Funny how they define “fringes” – since The Bunker gets exponentially more traffic than CO$’s official site does. Does that make them the “outliers” of the internet?

      • Captain Howdy

        Perhaps you meant the “out’n’outliers” of the internet?

        • Poison Ivy

          Touché, mon capitain!

      • ThetaBara

        They are the outliars!

      • USA MRIID

        Just looking at the TonyOrtega.Org stats, it’s insane, his numbers are through the friggen roof while Scientology’s web site is basically dead. 🙂

  • Studious Judious

    So you gain the ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject. Apparently you are only allowed to use that ability when the church allows.

    • Sherbet

      Tell that to the scns on the AGP videos. He asks a question, and they clamp their mouths shut and scatter.

      • Studious Judious

        Exactly! And if you think about it, the stated ability gained is meaningless. 1) it doesn’t say when you can use the ability 2) it doesn’t say that you are communicating effectively either. So basically you have gained the ability to speak gibberish, when the church says you may. Ummm. Thanks, but no.

        • Sherbet

          Ah, but you gain communication with THINGS, if not with PEOPLE!

          • Studious Judious

            How could I not see that! Oh, I know, it’s because I learned how to communicate with things in the first three years of my life. “ooh looky a pretty yellow plastic star. And it fits inside this little red star shaped hole. How cool! All I have to do to make the star go into the hole is pick it up with my fingers, turn it the right way, and push it inside.”

            THAT is how you communicate with things.

            Not trying to be snarky with you Sherbet, just the Scientologists who might be reading.

            • Sherbet

              I read you loud and clear, Studious.

            • USA MRIID

              Damn, that’s some advanced shit you just described. Now watch the fucking insane dwarf write it up and start selling it to the rubes.

          • Where’s Shelly?

            All my ashtrays and I have a strong bond together now.

            • Sherbet

              There ya go! And they say it doesn’t work…

            • junojones

              I’ve never been a scin, but I have a beautiful cranberry glass ashtray. I’ve decided that if I ever feel the need to establish a working bond with an ashtray, that’s the one I want to work with.

              I’m just scared it will never take me seriously. 🙁

            • Poison Ivy

              I think it’s so Hubbardian 1950’s-’60’s that they still use ASHTRAYS!

            • USA MRIID

              Hubbard wrote that it was a crime not to use a computer. Hubbard’s idea of what a computer was lacked any HINT of sanity.

            • USA MRIID

              My ash tray wants me dead. DEAD!!!11

          • USA MRIID

            1) Go to zoo.
            2) Communicate with the hippos.
            3) Cognate that they understand you.
            4) Go home.
            5) Write a big $ fucking $ check $ out to David Miscavige.

        • Once_Born

          Scientologists would probably say that they can communicate better – but what they mean by “communicate” is quite different from what you mean by “communicate” (i.e. exchange ideas through the use of language).

          What’s more, they would claim that their type of communication is far superior.

          Naturally, you can only understand this superior form after you have joined the {church} completed several {communication courses} and forked over a lot of money.

          Thanks to Tony and Claire’s efforts more people can see that CofS {communication courses} are woeful gibberish, and will not fall for that {explanation}.

          • Observer

            DM presented a shining example of clam comm during his Ted Koppel interview. Sign me up!

            • Captain Howdy

              Great example of scientology com tech in action.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DY42ta6Vq6E

            • Observer

              Hahaha! “There’s no bugs at all!” Obviously those people haven’t been to the Ft. Harrison lately.

              Why is it that so much of the clam comm consists of sound effects? You’d think those enhanced IQs would have larger vocabularies.

            • Captain Howdy

              Once they reach a certain point in their processing, mere words can no longer suffice. Cartoon/comic book noises are the prep level leading up to total mental telepathy abilities.

            • Bella Legosi

              Don’t forget all that “wall tech”. Your supah powerz can totally be honed by touching and talking to walls and inanimate objects.

      • Cher

        I know! You’d think they would just use their OT powers and either:
        A. Put him in a Vulcan mind hold
        B. Make him leave
        And of all his confrontations the only thing they have managed to do is scurry back to whence they came. I think AGP may have the OT powers.

        • ThetaBara

          If there were such a thing as “OT Powers” then Anonymous would cease to exist.
          It’s that simple. Why can’t they postulate us into going away? I could use the free time!

          • Cher

            I know, right!?! I would be pretty pissed off if I spent 100’s of thousands dollars to get my special OT powers only to find them defective.

            Good Lord, for that kind of money I better be have to fart rainbows and summon a damn unicorn to fly me around.

            • ThetaBara

              Wouldn’t it be nice?!
              Instead, they still all need glasses, and don’t have sufficient TP at the orgs.
              It’s really kinda pathetic if you think about it.

      • USA MRIID

        Um, if AGP were to ask me the *time* I’d also clamp shut and scatter. 🙂 Just saying.

        • Sherbet

          Ha!

    • USA MRIID

      As Green Day says in their song, “The freedom to obey.” Uep.

  • Veritas

    “Have his shoe think a thought, have a rug think a thought.”

    I agree with the Russian government when they say that Hubbard was trying to drive people insane, so that he could access their bank accounts more easily.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      The fucked up thing is, I actually did it as I was reading, and bugger me if it didn’t work.

      I’m going to go make the hot girl down the street think she’s dressed….. When she isn’t……….. And she wants to go sunbake…. Even though it’s nearly midnight 😀

      EDIT: Does this mean I unlocked the Force powers I wanted since I was, like, 5?

  • noseinabk

    Not sure if anyone posted this yesterday. Silly Tmz video of the sham wow guy. Possibly admitting to a nda with scientology?

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/12/vince-offer-shamwow-leah-remini-scientology/

    • Mark

      I think it’s a safe bet money changed hands at some stage – he’s already well-known for beating up hookers.

      • Robert Eckert

        Best comment on that story: “Why spend thousands of dollars on hookers every month when ShamWow sells for only 20 bucks?”

        • Mark

          I wonder what grubby little secrets that irritating shouty ‘Cillit Bang’ man is hiding?

          • Espiando

            “Barry Scott”…never trust a man with two first names. Especially ones that sell you chemicals that can save you a trip to the dermatologist for an acid peel.

            • Mark

              I’m sure it’s got the same ingredients as the sort of catering-dishwasher-liquid that makes your fingernails dissolve. Rubber gloves every time!

            • Espiando

              Cillit Bang is the only known substance on Earth that requires you to wear MOPP 4 under a fully-ventilated bunny suit.

        • i-Betty

          “Senor_Wences

          I dunno. The specs for the Slap Chop are suspiciously similar to those of the E-Meter. He just kind of taped some razors to it and started hitting onions. I think there’s a deeper story here.”

        • i-Betty

          I’m roaring with laughter at the comments!

    • noseinabk

      When I posted the tmz vid I had no idea of the history.

      http://gawker.com/5191018/the-story-behind-scientologys-slap-chop-scandal

      • tetloj

        Best Scientology trivia story ever!

        • Sherbet

          Some of the comments are priceless.

          • tetloj

            classic

          • noseinabk

            jbwanUJohn Cook

            1L

            You know you’re a Scientologist when you see a vegetable and know you’re the only one who can chop it, or see a wet mess, and know you are the only one who can wipe it up. that’s what being a Scientologist is all about.

            and

            starless wonderUJohn Cook

            1L

            Operation Sham-Bake

      • media_lush

        nice find…. I added it to my bollocks blog

    • ze moo

      Gee, an appeal to CO$ internal ‘justice’ results in more crime and theft?? How could that happen? ‘Most ethical people on the planet’ my left buttock. The hooker thing looks past strange and something from a meth induced episode of ‘Chopping Bad’.

  • Papa Xenu

    I can imagine what the shoe’s & rug were thinking, “these &@$!ing people are suckers”

  • Krew13

    Poor Karen Black. Poured so much money into the Sciloon coffers and ended up having to start an online fundraiser to pay for cancer treatment. And Issac Hayes, after being forced to quit a job he loved doing, was forced to go on the road, despite a stroke, because he was being harassed for more donations.

    I wish someone would confront Top Gun about these things when he’s out promoting his next egofest where he tries to look like a tough action hero.

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      They use up people. I remember when Charles Lakes, the Olympic Gymnast, was going for gold medals at the olympics. He was a favorite for gold in his individual skills, one of which was the horizontal bar.

      Charles was a Scientologist and was taking services at ASHO in Los Angeles. I met him once, sitting on a couch in the reception area where we were both waiting for someone. Nice guy.

      But Scientology, as always pushing itself as more important, got him to do a huge tour of Scientology Orgs, press appearances and other promotional stuff, right before the Olympics. They were trading on him as a potential Olympic Gold Medalist. What this did is take him away from his training and practice, the very things that had gotten him into the elite ranks of gymnastics. I read one comment from a former team member that he had been practicing his routines only long enough to have a ‘win’, and then he’d leave. Everyone else was still putting in the hours.

      So when he got to the Olympics, his training and practice was way below what he needed to be competitive and didn’t medal at all, IIRC.

      So, Scientology, in it’s thirst to use him as a shining example of the world class level of it’s adherents for its PR and propaganda machine, used him up. Not only did they not get a Gold Medalist as an example for Scientology, they destroyed his own one-in-a-lifetime dream of being an Olympic medalist.

      Sad.

      • Where’s Shelly?

        After he didn’t get a medal I wouldn’t be surprised if they took away his executive washroom key and made him empty out his locker at the Celebrity Centre.

  • Mark

    Sorry – couldn’t resist this one:

    • Nevermore

      I just know I’m going to have nightmares about that!

      • Mark

        I know what you mean. Oddly enough, it made me think of Minnie Mouse – a mouse bigger than the biggest rat, wearing a dress, high heels and lipstick – groo!

        • Nevermore

          Gross!

  • Krew13

    I went to KFC and made my meal an XL. I listened to PYT by MJ, after which I took out my BD of T2 and watched it on my LCD with THX.

    Now, imagine having to use abbreviations and acronyms all day every day but ones that are completely meaningless and the arbitrary inventions of a diseased mind. At least the ones above mean something.

    • lightblb62

      “At least the ones above mean something”. They DO? Not to this 62 year old they don’t!! The only part of that I understood was KFC!!!
      There has been so much “new language, so many invented words and so many acronyms since texting became the new mode of communication…it’s a total foreign language to those of us still out here who don’t utilize Smart Phones etc.. No different for those in SCN.., they developed a language that only those participating can understand…and to them it means something.. just as all those who Twitter and Tweet, and text etc understand one another. ( Oh.. what does LULZ mean? ) Anyway.. I’m not defending SNC lingo kids so don’t beat me up.. remember.. I got my declare order too….and I am one of the original old timers from the Apollo so I have witnessed enough crap for my own story).. just saying that many “groups” form their own lingo.

      • lulz

        Beginning as a plural variant of lol, Lulz was
        originally an exclamation but is now often used as a noun meaning
        interesting or funny internet content.

        Lol -> lul; lols -> luls; lolz -> lulz.

        Lulz is the one good reason to do anything, from trolling to rape.
        After every action taken, you must make the epilogic dubious disclaimer:
        “I did it for the lulz”.

        This has been pioneered by encyclopedia dramatica, famous for
        posting a fake craigslist add and then listing the personal info of
        those who responded.

        “Why did he post a suicide note on livejournal before killing himself?” “I hear he did it for the lulz.”

        http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lulz

        • Captain Howdy

          For this crowd maybe you should gone with the Oh Internet version.

      • Once_Born

        Looking forward to hearing some of that “crap” – when you are ready, of course. Welcome!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        did I hear someone from Apollo say they have a story?

        • Mrs Libnish

          Me too! I caught that too! Story…story…story…

      • ze moo

        You have enunciated the exact reason why groups invent their own language and make their adherents use it. To foster identity with the group and to exclude outsiders from that group. Yeah a light bulb went off in my head too….

        • Poison Ivy

          Businesses do this too, with their endless rosters of jargon. But Scientology truly has it fine tuned to a dark art.

      • Krew13

        I’ll translate, and I won’t even charge you $100,000 for the privilege.

        As you already know, KFC is Kentucky Fried Chicken. I made my meal XL – extra large. I listened to PYT, Pretty Young Thing, by MJ, Michael Jackson, after which I took out my BD of T2, my Blu-Ray of Terminator 2, and watched it on my LCD, Liquid Crystal Display TV, with THX, the THX home cinema sound system.

        • Captain Howdy

          Pretty Young Thing by Michael Jackson?

          I got my eye on you.

          • Krew13

            Are you implying I’m bad? Or dangerous? Or maybe you think I’m a smooth criminal.

            • Captain Howdy

              I don’t know, but MJ + PYT + young boy offering up his bum makes me think somebody’s “got the hots” for the tots ; )

            • Krew13

              Shamone. Hee hee.

      • q-bird

        What was it like on board when the heavy weather hit? Was anyone ever seasick?

        • joan nieman

          Very interesting ! If you were sea sick did that mean you had ‘pulled it in’?

      • ThetaBara

        “LULZ” is an alternate spelling of “LOLs” which is ‘netspeak for “laughing out loud.” So, “we do it for the LULZ” means “we do it for the laughs.”
        it is true that the internet and new communication forms spawn new lingo and I think this is an exception to the “jargon = bullshitness” rule, at least sometimes.

    • sugarplumfairy

      FWIW, my BFF and I agree using too many acronyms can be a CLM, but IDK.. IMO, they can be GR8 fun.. FI, YSCOHB is pretty entertaining.. BTW, G2G but BBL.. LLLAB.. HHJK..

    • Once_Born

      The CofS not only use abbreviations and acronyms, but also ‘redefine’ existing words and make up new ones. Scientology messes with grammar, as well ,to create a private language.

      This language is, indeed, utterly meaningless. However, it is rigidly enforced (using ‘word clearing’ and Scientology dictionaries) because it serves a number of purposes:

      A private language:

      (1) Isolates believers from outsiders – {church} members can’t talk to wogs any more because, “they don’t understand.”

      (2) Gives Scientologists the illusion of being part of an highly qualified and elite group who have to use specialised words to discuss {advanced concepts}.

      (3) Can make Scientologists sound smarter and more capable than they are – at least to outsiders that know nothing about the CofS (surely an endangered species).

      (4) Using this language forces the believers to apply Scientology ideas to everyday life.

      I suggest that the CofS add an old abbreviation to the Scientology dictionary – one that will soon become very useful when describing the condition of the {church} – SNAFU

      • Poison Ivy

        Exactly Once Born!

        “(4) Using this language forces the believers to apply Scientology ideas to everyday life.”

        Which gradually changes their thinking, because everyday life must now be seen through a very narrow lens.

      • ThetaBara

        Yep. Being involved with scientology activism has totally reinforced my existing skepticism of jargon. If you are using made-up words, I automatically assume you are trying to bullshit me!

        • Studious Judious

          a-fucking-men

  • 1subgenius

    So according to Daily Mail (citing Tony) Shelly is in a scret underground compound:

    “The confirmation of the missing persons report came from Ortega’s website, the Underground Bunker, which seeks to expose the inner workings of the secretive religious organization.

    Ortega alleges that Mrs Miscavige was transferred from the Scientology headquarters in Helmet, California to a secret underground compound in Lake Arrowhead in late 2005 or 2006.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2390933/Leah-Remini-Vince-Shamwow-guy-Offer-praises-stars-Scientology-defection.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    What I think happened is they saw the name of this blog, and got confused.
    That’s some good journalism there, Lou.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      They fubarred that one up pretty good!

      • Poison Ivy

        Ha ha! Once again, Subgenius, you’re a genius!

    • Mark

      They’re not allowing comments on the piece either – after precisely (0) comments, notice. Frightened of being corrected, more like.

      • ThetaBara

        The DF often disallows comments on articles it expects to be controversial. I think it may have to do with the libel laws over there, which are much more stringent than American libel laws.

        • Mark

          Maybe: but I suspect it also has to do with the fact that the last few times the Mail did an online piece about the Remini case, it attracted a storm of comments – many pointing up mistakes & inaccuracies.

          Notice this piece is credited to “Daily Mail Reporter” rather than any identifiable byline, which usually signals the heavy hand of the Mail‘s editor, the dread Paul Dacre – recently compared to Mussolini, and dubbed “a frothing autocrat”.

          • Nevermore

            Raving fascist misogynist bastard, to be more accurate!

      • Nevermore

        They’re probably preparing to sic Liz Jones on them (in joke for fellow perusers of the Fail!)

        • i-Betty

          *scream*

    • ze moo

      The Karin Pouw press release is the same one offered since last week. If the CO$ is concerned about LAPD resources why don’t they pay some taxes and help LA hire more police?

      ‘This
      ill-advised, ludicrous self-promotion and the media inquiries it
      generated caused an inexcusable distraction for the LAPD in an era when
      the time and resources of its officers are stretched thin each day.

      • L.L. Cantare J

        {Paying taxes contributes to Big Government and its partners Big Pharma and Big Psych. Better to just give money and gifts directly to those poor overworked police officers and sheriffs.}

        • Poison Ivy

          Yes – taxes are anonymous. You can’t control anyone with taxes.

          Now, under the table payoffs? Much better use of your money. You can “contribute” to the police by buying a few of them.

      • i-Betty

        Ooh, good point, ze moo!

    • jonzot

      They didn’t mean underground literally. In this context the word underground simply means hidden or clandestine, not subterranean!

      • Ciru

        I think they confused the underground titanium vaults with an entirely underground compound.

        • Espiando

          Well, they’re actually close for once, which is a rarity for the Daily Fail. Technically, Twit Peaks and the vaults are owned/managed/insert euphemism here by CST, which is {{{a totally separate entity}}} from RTC. Twit Peaks, Trementina, hey, what’s the difference?

      • Robert Eckert

        It’s a metaphor!

        • tetloj

          Damn disqus will only let me upvote that once.

        • GlibWog

          Ohhh my favorite word! It just explains anything away..

    • Nevermore

      The writers on the Fail are not the sharpest tools in the box – their skills are sadly lacking!

    • USA MRIID

      Well, the “Daily Mail” is as credible as Fox “News.” The Daily Mail gets even basic biology sciences wrong, it’s an idiot right wing loon propaganda rag, basically. Fuck the Daily Snail.

    • i-Betty

      That’s so funny.

  • Eivol Ekdal

    Geraldo Rivera eat your heart out!

    • Sherbet

      Next up for Tony: Al Capone’s Other Vault.

      • Spackle Motion

        I’ve heard Geraldo talk about that infamous event, and he says that he really only wanted a 1/2 hour special but the network wanted it stretched out for ad dollars, and then right after he went off the air he threw the one item found, an empty bottle, along with his microphone and went straight up to the bar to get shitfaced. Even if not true, it’s still funny to imagine.

        • Sherbet

          It sure is funny!

          Do you know if, in the past, the rabid Rivera had ever been sicced on scientology?

          • Poison Ivy

            Back then, everyone was afraid of Scientology. Trust me. That’s what got me so interested in it. I couldn’t believe the high level media people I spoke to who were terrified….of a “religion.”

            • Sherbet

              Geraldo seemed to afraid of only one thing back in the day: Of not getting enough exposure. (Recent “selfie” notwitstanding…)

            • Captain Howdy

              Remember his big special on Satanism in America”? It would have been funny except for the fact it helped contribute to the hysteria that caused travesties and tragedies like McMartin and Fells Acres.

              Geraldo should have been tarred and feathered and run out of journalism long ago.

              http://io9.com/5829171/when-geraldo-rivera-took-on-satanism-and-a-very-confused-ozzy-osbourne

            • Sherbet

              No, I don’t remember that at all, but I would bet money that I never saw it at the time.

              Anyway, you confused me, Howdy. You used “journalism” and “Geraldo” in the same sentence. Geraldo’s talent was bullying his way into situations and shoving microphones into people’s faces while promoting himself as the premier news scooper of all scoopers. I’m no fan of him or his style, but I’d love to see him try the Geraldo approach with DM or TC. Or Tommy D, but he’s not talking anymore. I’d buy tickets to watch that.

            • Gerard Plourde

              It also created an easily demolished straw man that allowed people to ignore the real and more pervasive and obvious evils like racism, oppression and greed.

    • junojones

      Perhaps Geraldo should apply for the Freedom Mag opening. It would just add to the weirdness.

  • M Diggs

    in his interview on Siruis, Tony mentions how byzantine the corporate structure is. I’m now reading “A Piece of Blue Sky” and curious if anyone has a visual flow chart or something similar that explains all of the sub organizations and how they relate to each other. I’ve read a good chunk about COS but am still confused how everything fits together – which I am sure is the intendedaffect

    • Mark

      These any use? I think the second one’s more helpful.

      • tetloj

        Yup. There’s irrational nonsense and then there’s just bollocks.

        • Mark

          Or, as Claire and Tony have been so clearly explaining for us: talking bollocks while throwing lots of money away.

  • George Layton

    So, if you don’t think for yourself the way you are supposed to think for yourself, you get to pay for the reprimandation process that is designed to help you learn to think for yourself correctly?

  • Doug Parent

    I did all the Grades and I feel they helped me become a more calm rational and kinder person, and my tolerance and acceptance for others peoples difficulties and imperfections was vastly improved. I also think the cost of auditing in the Taliban Radical Fanatical Scientology Cult Zone is SUPPRESSIVE and makes it more difficult and less available for those who reach for it. I know MANY people who feel that auditing helped save their lives. The real crime is the cost and how the cult has made a fortune by keeping auditing out of reach for most of it’s members but keeps them reaching nonetheless. Just my two cents.

    • Theo Sismanides

      Thanks for saying it as it is. It’s the cost (imposed by the cult) not the auditing to blame.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        You get an up vote for tenacity Theo!

        Edit: But ONLY for tenacity 😉

    • tetloj

      I find that living life, ageing, parenting etc while maintaining a healthy level of introspection has helped me become a more calm, rational and kinder person.

      • Doug Parent

        Indeed, and life experience has helped me in the same. Auditing was never intended to be a substitute for living and learning. It’s a means for a person to achieve more clarity for himself, and expand on what is true for him. It is not intended to mold a persons opinions or make him a “better person”. It just provides a means for a person to unburden himself of that which is not him. So what you have left is a simpler truer more honest and self-aware expression of a human being.

        • tetloj

          Honest and forthright conversations with any trusted individual have an unburdening effect.

          • Doug Parent

            It’s a known fundamental principle in auditing. Without trust between the auditor and the person he/she is trying to help, true communication cannot exist. Without communication, the process of “unburdening” does not occur. Hubbard observed and wrote extensively on that point.

            • tetloj

              I learned the same thing through a process of living an examined life.

            • Doug Parent

              “I learned the same thing through a process of living an examined life”
              Bingo.

            • Espiando

              Doug, it’s not going to work. 95% of the people here think that Hubbard’s so full of shit that it dribbled out of his ears, and the other 5% think that COB RTC squirreled auditing training so much that all principles went out of the window in 1996, never to return.

              Just to show you the level of respect that we have for communication (not to mention affinity and reality), you do know that one of our collective names for ourselves here is ARC, short for Anti-Ron Cult, right?

            • Doug Parent

              It’s not going to put a dent in my day, I was just throwing in my .02 and answering a question. It’s perfectly alright with me that you disagree.

            • Captain Howdy

              The ultimate goal of Hubbard’s bridge was to take all your money and then turn you into a slave once your money was gone. And if you did have enough money to make it all the way up the bridge, the EP was hopefully insanity or suicide so you couldn’t sue Hubbard’s ass for fraud or spill the beans.

            • q-bird

              Howdy Howdy – 🙂 – I just bought this album cuz I heard one of their songs on sirius & liked it but couldn’t find it / buy it on iTunes… I could however buy the whole CD on Amazon, so I did. Listening to this song (not the one that originally hooked me btw), I thought of you Captain, or rather, your sister … iffn ya don’t mind, I share it with you.

              “Shoot the truth & live a lie…”

              http://youtu.be/WGgaez4glrc

              Whatever it is that really happens in auditing is honestly, truly, addicting. Those who pay others to be listened to deeply are in love with this process, this ‘tek’ – they fly high.

            • Captain Howdy

              Uh thanks..now i wanna get high..I’ll be right back.

            • q-bird

              Oh No Captain Nooooo…… my dear Capt…..

              you must stay right here in your right mind, please, if you will!

            • i-Betty

              That is one puzzled fish!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Just say no!

            • Sherbet

              “Just say No” to auditing.

            • Captain Howdy

              The problem with the scientology is like a drug addiction analogy is that real drugs are actually real and deliver as promised. If they don’t they’re considered “bunk” and you don’t but from that dealer anymore.

              A better analogy is a scientologist is a person who keeps buying “bunk” drugs that do nothing and he goes back to the dealer and tells him he didn’t feel anything and the dealer tells him everybody else says the stuff is the bomb and he must have something wrong, so the dude buys some more and does it again and again and again..he’s a chump.

            • joan nieman

              Kind of like the herbal supplements and essential oils bracket…or perhaps, racket!

            • Once_Born

              Well said.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              And we were christened by Marty!

        • Once_Born

          By simple logic ‘you’ can’t unburden yourself of something that is ‘not you’ because, by definition, it’s not in you in to be unburdened in the first place.

          Its like saying, “Pliers enable me to take the nail that is not in the wood out of the wood”..

    • Once_Born

      Could you please explain how auditing brought about a particularimprovement? Having read all of Tony and Claire’s series up to this point, I don’t understand how any of the actions could help, either psychologically or practically.

      Maybe one example would help clarify the matter…

      • Doug Parent

        I have not read anything that Claire has written that directly validates or invalidates auditing either way. She seems to be describing it and seems to agree and acknowledge Tony’s rather sarcastic remarks. For the record, I’m glad Tony is exposing the cults crimes but he does not appear to understand auditing from the perspective of having derived any benefit of it, it just seems like it’s an armchair critique and not an intellectual one at that. I have come to accept the fact that the type of environment that Scientology is represented in can sway ones opinion as much as the results. Matter of fact, looking back, it’s amazing I made the gains I did while getting auditing in the church. It’s not a safe place. Having said that, I can tell you that through auditing I was able to unburden myself from past indiscretions and lapses in judgement that lead me to conclude that I could not fully trust myself or my judgement. That is huge. Try and share that with someone who is huddling in the corner from life, full of self doubt, second guessing themselves left and right, and unable to make sure and confident decisions on life. I know LOT’S of people like that. It’s amazing they get through the day. They are a mess. Auditing helped me rise about all that. I’m very certain about a number of things. I’m able. I can learn. I am a person of good will. I mean no harm to others and I can FULLY trust myself. And, I KNOW I can help others.

        • noseinabk

          I think Tony understands auditing just fine. What benefits
          could it possibly give a well-adjusted , confident adult?
          Many people get the benefits you mention from good parenting, education and maturity. Avid scientologist appear to think that a great many wogs are huddling in corners waiting for the tech. All that self introspection for years and years produces arrogance and indifference to others problems,( since they pulled it in.)

          • Jgg2012

            Yes, any intellectually stimulating conversation does exactly what auditing does, and your friends don’t charge you to talk to them.

          • sizzle8

            Life sure can result in a healthy maturity and mellowing.

            I have seen auditing both help and introvert. There can be an over-abundance of self introspection. There’s a semi-derogatory term inside the church for those who are so self absorbed into their case, who want auditing to solve all their problems instead of going out and living life – they’re called “professional preclears”.

            • i-Betty

              That’s interesting.

        • sizzle8

          I agree with Doug. The grades processes sound ridiculous or simple or both, but I’ve seen them work – some more than others, but generally a positive. There is nothing coercive, evil or damaging there. Not sure why so many think they HAVE to be bad.

          • pronoia

            If I were spending that kind of money on such a process, I’d have a hard time NOT convincing myself that I was getting some kind of benefit from it.

            • Once_Born

              To be fair, Doug has stated above that he believes both the Church and many Independents charge too much…

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Of course they do. I only paid $4 for self analysis and it has all the same lame questions as you see in the “flows” in the article above.
              It was totally fun to do it.
              But then, ….so is downhill skiing.

            • Jgg2012

              Yes, that’s called “Sunken Cost Bias”–once you expend time / money on something, you tend to believe that it must have value.
              Once, a company was losing money. It asked its employees for suggestions. The CEO did not like their suggestions, so he hired an expensive consultant to make some suggestions. The consultant interviewed the employees, and made the exact same suggestions the employees made, and the CEO loved them and adopted them right away.
              There is also something called Optimism Bias. Sunken Cost Bias / Optimism Bias are also why pyramid schemes like Amway want you to invest $5,000 up front.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Because they were adapted and developed by a satan wannabe?

        • Once_Born

          I don’t doubt that you have managed to resolve personal issues, with time. I do doubt that auditing had anything to do with this – perhaps you have underestimated yourself by assuming it did.

          You say that Tony, “does not appear to understand auditing from the perspective of having derived any benefit of it”. Fair enough. I can’t comment on your inaccessible, subjective experience.

          However, Tony and Claire have fairly described auditing actions (and, if they haven’t, you can correct them) – I don’t understand how these actions can bring about positive personality changes in a person.

          Surely it is straightforward to give an simple example explaining how a particular auditing action brings about a particular benefit? In other words how does it work?

          I await your answer with interest.

          • Doug Parent

            You doubt auditing had anything to do with my gains? Why?

            • nottrue

              someone huddling in the corner from life could get GAINS from anything

            • pronoia

              Or taking 10 minutes to record thoughts and feelings in a journal a few times a week.

            • nottrue

              try petting a dog

            • q-bird

              or a cat

            • q-bird

              or a chipmunk

            • George Layton

              I tried to pet a chipmunk up camping last weekend, but my dogs kept chasing it away.

            • Observer

              SP curs!!

            • Captain Howdy

              And if the chipmunk had bit you and scurried off, you would be getting rabies vaccinations.

            • George Layton

              I’m giving those SP curs a treat right now.

            • Once_Born

              Because I don’t understand how the simple actions that are performed during auditing could possibly bring about anything as subtle and subtle and complex as personality change.

              If I am wrong, this is easily fixed – explain to me how auditing works.

          • Jgg2012

            And how is it any better than talking to a psychologist or a hypnotherapist?

        • George Layton

          I believe there may be a danger of indoctrination to the cult if you convince people that auditing is helpful. There are many ways to drop the baggage of past actions, but if there is any chance that a person, in the gain of self understanding through a hubbard tech, begins to believe that all of hubbards ploy was valid, then that should be avoided at all costs. It’s good that it helped you but please don’t point those others down that road. Look around for alternatives that do not point at anything hubbard did.

          • Doug Parent

            I do not recommend to anyone getting auditing in the *church* of scientology. All I’m saying, and please, folks, don’t get your panty’s all bunched up, is that I got a lot out of the grades that Claire was beginning to describe. I’m on no crusade to unburden or enlighten the happy campers here in the bunker.

            • Sherbet

              Doug, I’ve got to say it’s almost refreshing to have a tech cheerleader here who’s articulate and reasonable. Not many here will agree with you — I know I don’t — but there’s no mud slinging, either. Most of us believe lrh’s BS quotient cancels out any benefit to be gained from the tech. And there are many benefits of conventional talk counseling or therapy, and they’re based on science, not some clunky lrh theories that he declared were “fact.” I’d guess your communication skills are innate, and not the product of flow exercises or can holding.

            • sizzle8

              I’m glad to see Doug here too. One thing you said, though, that “conventional talk counseling or therapy is based on science”. I don’t know that that’s true. It seems that therapy style varies almost with each therapist and is not based on any fundamental science – just anecdotal and empirical results.

            • Sherbet

              OK, sizzle8, I’ll concede that point about science, unless we’re talking about psychotropic drug therapy backed up by brain scans. And empirical results aren’t to be ignored, either. But you’re right in a way. It’s not like watching the healing process of a broken limb via X-ray.

            • sizzle8

              Yup. The research using brain scans and psychotropic drugs is fascinating. Check out David Eagleman’s book, ‘Incognito’.

            • Sherbet

              I will, siz.

            • Once_Born

              Psychoanalysis was pretty much accepted to be unscientific and ineffective many years ago

              However there are some pretty good double-blind peer-reviewed studies that support the efficacy of cognitive behavioural therapy (an approach which has a lot in common with stoicism).

              Therapies can be accessed scientifically as long as they make testable claims – see “Evidence-based medicine”.

            • Nevermore

              My psychologist used Assassin’s Creed to help me deal with my fear of heights,because she knew I am a bit of a gamer! 🙂

            • Doug Parent

              Innate yes, but buried.

            • Robert Eckert

              You are not giving any substance to your claims of getting something out of it: how about “when I was doing [this part] it helped me to realize [something more than just saying Wow!] which made me stop [some troublesome behavior or thought fixation]”?

            • sizzle8

              It’s anecdotal. Doug doesn’t have to know the “how” or “why”. But if he says it worked for him how does anyone else know better than he does?

            • Once_Born

              When people make an extraordinary claim, put it into the mouth of a used car dealer and reconsider.

              Car dealer, “I don’t know how this car works, or why it’s worth buying, but it runs for me. How could you know better than I do”.

              Wouldn’t buy the car, can’t accept the claim.

            • Robert Eckert

              It’s not even anecdotal until he tells an actual anecdote.

            • Doug Parent

              I have the satisfaction of knowing within myself what my gains in auditing have been, they aren’t hazy, grey fuzzy or unreal around the edges. Auditing saved my life. Period.

            • Robert Eckert

              But you do understand that to anybody else, you have not shown anything that makes your gains sound real?

            • Doug Parent

              frankly Scarlet I don’t give a damn.

            • ThetaBara

              In that case, what exactly is your point in posting here?
              You are asserting vague benefits and not really offering anything of substance. There is absolutely no reason anyone should take your vague claims seriously so far.

            • Doug Parent

              Making no claims. Re-read my first posting and that should answer you question.

              I’M OFF THIS THREAD TODAY FOLKS. THANKS FOR ALL THE FUN AND INTERESTING COMMENTS. PEACE, OUT. -DOUG

            • Captain Howdy

              Come back anytime. You and Theo made it more interesting. Usually it’s just a bunch of people agreeing with each other..ha ha, I’m an asshole.

            • Doug Parent

              Despite what people may say about assholes everyone still needs one! Cheers.

            • Doug Parent

              I’m not here to offer evidence, just offer contrast.

            • Doug Parent

              Well then obviously you have not met the “old” me.

            • Robert Eckert

              Obviously.

            • Once_Born

              And the old you is (conveniently) no longer available for examination.

            • q-bird

              Exactly how Mr. Parent? — Can you tell your own personal story? Are you willing to type that out? Is it possible for you to articulate your personal revelation?

            • Doug Parent

              I can type and I can articulate but I don’t feel inclined. Not here. Not now. My days in the church seem long ago and my explorations via solo auditing are in a different realm altogether. It’s a fantastic marvelous journey that is difficult to convey because certain levels of awareness exceed the parameters of what we have come to believe is “reality” and expand at times, far beyond the reaches of that. It’s in a different realm.

            • q-bird

              Sure enough Doug, I respect your decision. Freedom of choice rules here at the bunker. You may ‘speak up’ or not. You may make a comment, or not. Reply, or do not reply. Agree, disagree. Up vote, down vote, whatever you will — do only what is comfortable for you, of course. It is a daunting task indeed to share intensely personal revelations (life saving in fact, you say) on a public forum such as this. You are, one can only assume, totally free to believe what you choose to believe.

              What you do, however, what you say, what actions your beliefs inspire, attests to what it is you believe. Your experiences with the *church* and then now with solo auditing (that which inspires awe in you and maybe cannot be meaningfully translated using mere words) affects your reality. I believe you. But without further honest explanation, your viewpoint can and will never be understood. I don’t understand what it is you have experienced. And that’s okay — this is not a necessity. We both will continue with making our living here on this Earth in our life time. I was just hoping you could share in more detail how… or in what way… you feel that your life “has been saved” by hubbard’s thought system, by auditing. This is quite a big statement you make. So I am naturally curious & more details would be helpful. You say your gains are in a different realm; they come from a “reality” in which the multi-levels of awareness are fantastic & marvelous. You also say your gains, your personal spiritual insights, are “not hazy, grey, fuzzy or unreal around the edges”… and yet you are disinclined (unwilling) to elaborate. Okay. Fine as kind Doug. thank you for your reply.
              Q

            • Doug Parent

              Hi Q. Thanks for that. I already have shared tidbits on some of my earlier posts. However, on this blog, one is met with the knee jerk “prove it” or “you can learn that just by living life” . It’s all tantamount to evaluation and invalidation. I’m not sticking my neck out here. There’s seemingly only a few here like you. Now, It’s not “Hubbards thought system” it’s the auditing processes that are designed to encourage a person to turn over the rocks and look again in a fresh unit of time at past conclusions or summations a person may have made about life that perhaps in the fresh light of day, no longer hold true for him. It’s also the effect of past misadventure that may still impinge on our consciousness and mislead and misinform ourselves. Man can create his own lies or altered version of reality in times of stress.
              So the processes are akin to searching out and eradicating ones mental “computer viruses”. It does not amount to a set of rules, or anything one would memorize or adopt as a mantra, it’s a sifting process and opportunity to re-evaluate for oneself what is true for the individual. Hubbard wrote a lot. I don’t agree with many of his opinions. I think he got some stuff wrong. I also think he has his own demons. But one thing can be said about him, he was a good “labeler” and he identified aspects of the mind (created models) and identified phenomena and came up with processes whereby a person could eventually become more aware of his own authorship and creation of his own difficulties.

            • sugarplumfairy

              good for you.. I feel the exact same way about a good nap..

            • Doug Parent

              My statements are conclusions and very general statements that reflect over 30 years of work in Scientology. Furthermore, my gains involve matters that I consider deeply personal. What I am saying, is that I would not trade the gains I made in Scientology for ANYTHING. Thats speaks for itself and it’s all I intended to say about it.

            • Robert Eckert

              Our experience is that people who spend a lot of time in Scientology are so mindfucked they don’t know good from bad. So conclusions resulting from “30 years of work in Scientology” don’t carry any weight, simply in isolation.

            • Doug Parent

              Well my experience has been different so I guess we will agree to disagree.

            • Robert Eckert

              You have not said anything about your experience.

          • sizzle8

            But don’t you run into the conundrum that many of the techniques used in Scientology didn’t originate with Hubbard, but because he used them, therefore they shouldn’t be used?? Makes no sense.

            • George Layton

              Point to the original source. hubbard need not be mentioned.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Hah! Good point!

            • Captain Howdy

              The only part of scientology that could possibly do anything beneficial is the talk therapy aspect of it, and you can get that from a licensed therapist.

              What’s left? The abreaction therapy? The authoritative hypnosis?

    • Espiando

      I’ve found that psychiatry is cheaper, more effective, and gets you better drugs.

      • pronoia

        And / or weekly psychotherapy or counseling w/out drugs if you prefer.

    • Captain Howdy

      Anybody who can’t figure out what “life” is all about for themselves, doesn’t deserve to know in the first place.

      Existential Nihilism FTW baby!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_nihilism

    • Studious Judious

      I’m giving you an up arrow. I respect that you clearly communicated your opinion. I also respect that you have tolerance for others opinions.

      • Doug Parent

        cheers. everybody’s “right” from their point of view. I’d more concerned about the guy who can’t or won’t communicate his/her point of view.

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      Doug, thanks for posting here and willing to stick to your guns.

      I do maintain that SOMETHING happens when one does scientology. It can feel great. It can be something that we credit with changing our lives for the better. It can be long lasting. It can change one’s viewpoint and way of dealing with the world and make us feel more able.

      One of the reasons scientology gets away with their abuses is that they sell that “something”. An analogy is a car salesman: “BEST MOST UNIQUE and POWERFUL, BEAUTIFUL, FUN TO DRIVE Vehicle EVER made, now available to only the most select few” So you bite on that sales pitch. You go in and see the salesman. You get a very polished, high power and psychologically manipulative sales job that makes you feel that if you don’t buy this car TODAY it will be gone and you will miss an opportunity of a lifetime. So you buy the car. It is a car, looks presentable, drives pretty well. But after the sales hypnosis wears off, you realize it’s just a ’69 Volkswagen spray painted gold with a rattle can.

      But you didn’t get NOTHING. You got SOMETHING. It wasn’t what you thought you were buying. It won’t do what was advertised. It’s not worth what you paid for it. But it is something and it changed your life. You have it. Depending on your level of facing reality, you might, subjectively begin to view the car as a good purchase after all. It saves gas. Its pretty reliable. Kept you out of relationships that would probably been based on money, not love.

      So my point is you got SOMETHING. But what that SOMETHING is, is open to dispute. It’s value can be wholly subjective and not provable. It efficacy can be subjective and not provable.

      But that you got SOMETHING makes it a trap, makes it hard to dismiss, hard to get out of because you have this lingering perception that it made you better somehow. And makes you keep reaching for that fantastic deal you were promised.

      • Doug Parent

        I beg to differ sir. Just yesterday I “flew” to the bathroom. And those 5 cups of coffee had NOTHING to do with it.

        • Robert Eckert

          And because you were out of the {church} there was TP in the bathroom! Talk about a gain!

          • Doug Parent

            yeah back when I was in the church I gave a sh** …….oh ……never mind.

            • i-Betty

              That deserves a “hur hur” 😛

        • i-Betty

          Hilarious!!

    • i-Betty

      I am giving you an up-arrow for the exact same reason as StudJud. We differ in our opinions, but that’s life, right? 🙂

      • Doug Parent

        Indeed Betty! Have a lovely day.

      • Unex Skcus

        ^^^ Ditto!

    • i-Betty

      And, something else: I genuinely admire the fact that you put stock in being kind and tolerant. Those are not qualities that I tend to associate with Scientologists, as a rule. They are qualities that I associate with good people.

      • Doug Parent

        I’ve been accused of a lot things but thats going TOO FAR Betty. (wink **hug**)

        • i-Betty

          You’re definitely a nice person, Mister Parent! 😀

      • Doug Parent

        I understand. Actually I still know a few people who are good examples of Scientologists and they are the kindest and most generous people I know. They are often referred to as “old timers”.

  • Sarcasmo

    I don’t comment too often (the regular commenters usually outstandingly cover the thoughts I would bring up) but I just want to comment, as a long time reader here and at VV, on the outstanding progress that has been made. The Leah Remini story is all over the place, much like the Tom Cruise/Kattie Holmes divorce a year ago. The difference being that nearly every story on Leah Remini references (rightfully so for breaking the story) Tony O. When I come across these stories I back them up and add additional facts and suggest those with further interest point their browser in The Bunker’s direction. Many thumbs up are given.

    Also glad to see the number of comments made here has jumped in the last year or so. The latest Shelly story received well over a thousand comments. Over at Marty’s, he’s lucky to receive 150 comments on his blogs. It seems like every week there is a new story that makes me think for a minute, ‘this is it, they’re going down.’ Factoring in the bad press from a press who is no longer afraid, the lawsuits and legal victories, the Internet, empty ideal morgues, declining stats across the board, etc., its really only a matter of time. As the aging demographics of the cult membership (and particularly the whales) continues, the end seems nearer. Should we start a pool on the end date? How would that be defined? The day it’s announced that Miscaviage has blown with the remaining funds and the cult is left rudderless?

    • marti

      Sarcasmo, “The day it’s announced that Miscavige has blown with the remaining funds and the cult is left rudderless?”
      Let’s say DM does blow and takes a slow boat to Kiribati. Who would take over? The lawyers? TC? Someone must be waiting in the wings.

      • Espiando

        When that happens, the old Politburo comes out of the Hole to salvage what’s left. Heber will be figurehead, Guillaume (if he has the strength) takes charge of the apparat as ED Int For Life, and Mithoff immediately denounces The Dark Lord Chuckles The Silly Piggy as squirrel and starts a massive program to figure out exactly what’s on Source and what’s not.

        Or so the Indies hope.

        • Captain Howdy

          Pope Guillaume definitely sounds more legit.

          • Poison Ivy

            Will there be any money left, since COB has his hand on the whole checkbook?

            There will be real estate, I guess. Sell most of it off and there might be a little nest egg for the survivors to start over with.

            • Sherbet

              I was thinking the same thing — whether there would be money. I would hope there would be a backlash of lawsuits related to the properties and also from scns and former scns who see the opportunity to be compensated for their years of dashed dreams or more serious damages. And, if there are lawsuits pending, the cos’s assets would be frozen, like any collapsed business’s. Then the remaining loyal few will have to meet and do their auditing in one another’s furnished basements, and, by doing so, they’ll all be squirrels. I say all this with great authority, although I don’t know a thing about the law. It’s wishful thinking.

        • Where’s Shelly?

          And everyone starts spending whatever money is left like crazy!

        • marti

          @Espiando,
          I looked up Guillaume and Mithoff. Apparently both are in the hole. I found at Rathbun’s about Tom Cruise, “Miscavige said that Tom, as his best friend and most trusted confidante, had vowed to come to the Hole and personally “beat the living shit” out of Yager, Leserve, and Mithoff if the managers failed to do so themselves.”
          I do remember reading about that at one time.
          Tom Cruise-Actor/Thug in Waiting.

        • USA MRIID

          “the old Politburo comes out of the Hole to salvage what’s left”

          Just like the hookers did in “Breaking Bad” when the drug lords were all poisoned. 🙂

      • Where’s Shelly?

        Shelly?

      • USA MRIID

        “boat to Kiribati” for the win!

    • Once_Born

      The tipping point in the collapse of the CofS will only be seen retrospect. It will have passed when CofS expenditure exceeds income because (tragically) debtors are more likely to bring it down than the police and the courts. This is why the Narconon debacle is so important – the CofS bit off more than it can chew when it defrauded medical insurance companies.

      This point is surely approaching rapidly – the actual practice of Scientology seems to have been abandoned and, even if new management tried to revive it, they don’t have the staff and fact growing negative publicity.

      How long the collapse will take will depend on how much money they have in reserve.

      As for Miscavige – we don’t want him to blow – as long as he is in control the CofS is worse than rudderless. Some internal dissension would be good, though, just to muddy the waters for him.

      • Robert Eckert

        Is Miscavige still hanging out in Clearwater, running weekly “graduation” ceremonies?

        • Studious Judious

          Yes. Rinder’s blog gives a weekly update, on Saturday I believe. It’s a fun read.

          • Robert Eckert

            Liked this comment at Mike’s, in keeping with the post down below that the brainwash consists of boring you to death:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04&feature=player_embedded

            • joan nieman

              I love how they use a trumpet for the teacher’s voice. It always sounds mundane and the notes monotonous.

          • AnonymousSP

            I’ve traded Marty’s blog for Rinder’s. The latter is more upstat for my interests. One of the past graduations had the latest loved-bombed celebrity as the guest speaker (Michelle Stafford). Out with the old and tired and in with the new and shiny. Also lots of pics of empty rundown orgs. $cientology run down series… lol

            • Studious Judious

              Rinder has a sense of humor that is sharp as a tack. He also gets his point across quickly and without pontificating.

            • joan nieman

              Rinder’s got it happening!

          • Poison Ivy

            Mike is my favorite indie. He’s so smart and such an excellent writer – I think some of COB’s biggest footbullets included losing Jefferson, Mike, Mark Headley, Claire Headley and of course Debbie Cook. Oh – and even Tommy Davis. (And not just for the Tommy entertainment value.)

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Yeah, he is still there. I am upwind and can smell the steroids from here.

      • Doug Parent

        Excellent take. Miscavige is doing an EXCELLENT job of destroying Scientology as a brand. For those who seek it’s application outside the auspices of the Taliban Scientology Cult, however, fortunately for them they now have alternatives.

        • Poison Ivy

          I have no problem with those who still want to apply whatever it was they found useful in Scientology outside the “church.” Good for them. It’s just the same conundrum that the actual church faces – if LRON is “Source” and everything Source says is law, then how can you have any form of Scientology without lies, cons and oppression? Source was a conman who practiced abusive mind control on his followers. It can be argued that the whole purpose of Scientology was to create brainwashed followers. Ergo, won’t any form of Scientology have to incorporate those elements?

          If folks like Marty and Mike really want to take what they love about Scientology (hey each to his own; whatever works for your life in making you a better person is ok with me) and put it to use, IMHO, they will HAVE to kill the false idol of LRH once and for all. Then it’s a matter of accepting that a broken clock is right twice a day – LRH found some stuff that works for some people, but it’s going to have to be taken out of context without all these HCOB edicts and pronouncements and “Doctorate Courses” [trying not to vomit when I write that] that assume Hubbard was the great and powerful OZ. (Actually, metaphorically, that’s exactly what he was.)

          • noseinabk

            ^^^^100 up votes^^^

            • Poison Ivy

              Awwww. <3

          • Truthiwant

            Well said!

          • Gerard Plourde

            “it’s a matter of accepting that a broken clock is right twice a day”

            As someone once remarked about Scientology – “What was useful wasn’t new and what was new wasn’t useful.” Hubbard pulled the useful stuff from any number of religious and non-religious sources. What he added was a system of mind control and behavior control.

            • Poison Ivy

              “What was useful wasn’t new and what was new wasn’t useful.”

              Perfect, Gerard.

          • Orglodyte

            A few years ago I got together for an evening with a bunch of old friends. I had known most of them while in, and now all of them were out, some all the way like me, some doing services in the wild. Two couples were half-and-half, indie and still doing the bridge, married to full-on SP, and just fine with that. Everyone had lost their fixed dedicated glares. There were hugs.

            At one point, I asked the group, “So what do you all think of KSW?”

            It was unanimous, even among those who were still doing auditing: “Total bullshit.”

            It gave me great hope to see these fans of the tech ditching the “Hubbard is God” thing.

            • Once_Born

              Do you think that, if the CofS loses its ability to persecute, there is any any chance of a ‘reformed’ Scientology which is prepared to alter ‘source’ bringing about a more humane version?

              Personally, I think that, without the CofS, Scientology would fragment into thousands of sects, all too small to be liable in the first place, and die out altogether in a generation.

              Then again, I have never been ‘in’ and don’t understand the dynamic. I would be very interested in the perspective of your group.

            • Studious Judious

              I think once the monopoly on LRH collapses that Scientology will go the way of astrology, or psychics. It will probably never die. It will probably still be used to con people out of money. But it won’t be able to physically abuse people, or disconnect families they way that it does now.

            • Orglodyte

              I personally think it will fragment and fade away. The tech is not a coherent body of knowledge — only dogmatic assertion makes it seem to be one. Ron’s “carefully taped route” is just that — held together with duct tape!

              What I’ve observed is that once people actually become able to evaluate Scientology piece-by-piece, they gradually whittle away the stuff that doesn’t work until there isn’t enough left to call it Scientology any more.

              I think some people will try, but I just don’t think there are enough raisins in the rabbit pellets, and even they don’t smell too good. There already are descendants — Landmark, Idenics — but a reformed Scientology seems unlikely to me.

              It will be most interesting to see what the last 10,000 will do when the COS goes out of business.

            • Poison Ivy

              Landmark is a descendant of EST which was partially a rip off of Scientology.

            • Orglodyte

              Yes, and I know some people who have done a lot of Landmark who had no idea of that until I told them. They definitely don’t advertise it!

            • Poison Ivy

              I have a couple close colleages/friends who have done tons of Landmark. It’s definitely watered down.

              And one of them has become a much more effective businesswoman because of it.

              However, they’ve all dumped a shitload of money.

            • Poison Ivy

              My avatar disappeared!

            • joan nieman

              What the heck?

            • Poison Ivy

              That’s good to hear. It also sounds like they had lost the “Scientologists are superior and have all the answers that you poor wogs don’t” attitude – to be able to accept a bunch of different viewpoints around one dinner table and laugh about it.

            • Orglodyte

              Yes. I drove away at the end of the evening thinking, “These folks have rediscovered love.”

            • Poison Ivy

              Hubbard was definitely a little weak on the subject of love, that’s for sure! Nice to hear such a happy story.

            • Once_Born

              That’s good to hear. thank you for sharing it.

          • Theo Sismanides

            ” LRH found soooome stuff that works for soooome people “, may I correct the soooome miss Poison… Ivy.

            When you say some you should write some millions of words of data that some of you will never come near to because of your Theta Allergies and then some thousands if not by now millions who have partaken in the studies and dissemination of such data.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Then tell us why so many Ex-Scientologists will say that it was all junk and that none of it worked whatsoever? I know some have gotten some benefits, but the majority have left the tech behind completely.
              So no, Theo,…you cannot correct the “some”.
              Show me a real Clear…someone with no “reactive” mind and I will show you a Zombie.
              HER is what gives humans humanity, Theo!

            • Theo Sismanides

              Really? So you have counted the ex-es and you can figure out who is for and who is against? And how many on each side? Oh… really? The some is not some until proven otherwise. There is now thousands of people who deal with Scientology around the world, you like it or not. They may be cool aid drinkers but they do some type of Scientology anyway. And I know of at least 1.000 and more who are outside and are ex-es but not against.

              And as an explanation (but it might not work for you) there is two ends from where people exit Scientology. One is the TOP and so it doesn’t sound egoistic, there are those who just pop out of it with nada in their heads for their own reasons but keep blaming scientology for it, and the other is the DOWN where those who exit know what they know, keep on with their life and keep on doing something of value with what is called a… Thetan… which is a very hard nut to crack especially these days, since he is going psycho day by day. Read the news or get onto Facebook to see the actuality of what I am saying. As to Zombies you don’t need to show me one, I see one too many around daily. Thanks!

            • pronoia

              “And as an explanation (but it might not work for you) there is two ends from where people exit Scientology. One is the TOP and so it doesn’t sound egoistic, there are those who just pop out of it with nada in their heads for their own reasons but keep blaming scientology for it, and the other is the DOWN where those who exit know what they know, keep on with their life and keep on doing something of value with what is called a… Thetan… which is a very hard nut to crack especially these days, since he is going psycho day by day.”

              Seriously, I have no idea what this paragraph means. Other than it reads like something Hubbard could’ve written. “called a… Thetan…which is a very hard nut to crack since he is going more psycho day by day.” What are you talking about? Some Thetan or David Miscavige?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Pronoia, you have a greek name! wow! you must like something about us Greeks then. Do you know what it really means in English?

              So, I thought Pronoia would be prudent enough to know what I am talking about. I am talking about all those Thetans on Earth who don’t want to see that they are indeed Thetans, my Pronoia. David Miscavige is just a special nut case who drugs down many with him. But, hey, he is not to blame for everybody. So I am talking about all those thetans around who don’t wanna see their inner nature and keep coming up with all excuses as to how they shouldn’t be dealing with such dangerous stuff like scientology.

            • George Layton

              Yeah that David Miscavige! What a nutcase! I hear tell he once ordered a four year old child to be place in a ship’s chain locker for eating a Telex. He also ordered a little Girl of Five or Six years old to be place in that locker to cure Her deafness and dumbness. What a lunatic huh? I can understand why Thetans would shy away from him.

            • George Layton

              By the way, this is misinformation when I put DM’s name up above.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              snorts!

            • pronoia

              I do know it — as a mythological being, a biblical notion and a philosophical triplicity.

              And I do happen to love Greek mythology & philosophy (as a hobby and a mental exercise, not a belief-system), Greek food & architecture, music, and most esp. Greek islands. Oh, and Nikos Kazantzakis.

              And with Greek culture in mind, cannot for the life of me figure out how a Greek could get involved in something as mind-numbingly boring–and banal–as Scientology.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Bad Spanikopita?

            • pronoia

              Moussaka!!!!

              3 lb eggplant (2 large or 3 medium)
              2 large russet potatoes
              Salt as needed
              1/3 cup olive oil, or as needed
              2 cups diced onion
              1 1/4 lb ground lamb
              2 cups chopped plum tomatoes
              tsp minced garlic
              2 cloves
              Small piece cinnamon stick (or 1/4 tsp ground cinnamon)
              1 bay leaf
              Pinch ground allspice
              Freshly ground black pepper, as needed
              1/2 cup water
              2 tbsp tomato paste
              1/4 cup dry red wine
              1/4 cup plain bread crumbs
              2 cups cheese or bechamal Sauce

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Hungry now!!!

            • Captain Howdy

              Me too, I like moussaka. Maybe the Albanians across the street have some.

            • scottishinlondon

              melitzanasalata!

              take an aubergine and put in the oven until it wilts, scrape out the inside with a fork and add 1 or 2 cloves of garlic chopped fine, a healthy glug of olive oil and a decent quantity of salt

              chopped walnuts are good too

              eat with bread

              if you have a gas-topped stove then cook the aubergine directly on the gas, turning till it blackens all over

              (aubergine is what we call eggplant in the UK)

            • i-Betty

              We make this often on the barbecue. Nom!

            • Mark

              Try Tiropita – yummy!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh I have. And yes it is.

            • Espiando

              You don’t want to get into this. Take three guesses what kind of food the company I’m contracting for right now makes.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              No E, Nooooo.
              I finally got over being hungry for tiropita!!!!

            • Poison Ivy

              Spit take there Bury!

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok, still you haven’t explained to me what it means as a word. See how mind-numbingly boring and banal I can get?

            • pronoia

              I should not have to explain to you! You speak Greek don’t you?

              (and I did not say you were boring and banal. You did that.)

            • Once_Born

              We do.

            • joan nieman

              Indeed we do!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh Jeez Theo, do you think I live under a dark bridge (no pun intended) and have never seen facebook? Seriously, I don’t have to have the actual numbers to see that that Ex-Scientologists are much higher in numbers than the Indies.
              And just because this stuff works for you doesn’t not mean you get to say that everyone whom it doesn’t work for are the wrong ones.
              You can keep your Thetan …and I will keep my Brain and we will both be happy campers.
              Deal?

            • pronoia

              Yeah, just go over to Xenu.net or ESBM — where there are waaay more exes than there are indies on both places. And from the looks of things, that trend seems to also be occurring even on Marty’s blog.

            • joan nieman

              Bury…he doesn’t get it.

            • Once_Born

              “Read the news or get onto Facebook to see the actuality of what I am saying”.

              Killer argument – it must be true if someone has posts it on Facebook!

            • Nevermore

              OK, you’re a practicing Scio, so can you tell me – what is it you KNOW? Tom Cruise makes a big deal of this, as do others. WHAT do you KNOW that makes you the only people who can help at a car crash, even without medical training? Where are the wonderful communications skills? The ‘powers’? As far as I can see, you’re ‘all talk and no trousers’ as they say in my part of the world? And re your post above, who is going psycho day by day? A Thetan? Just what do you mean by that?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Nevermore. thanks for the question. First of, I do apologise if you see some foul comments here from my part but I step in here from time to time as a sheep amongst wolves. Seems that people don’t wanna talk, just to ridicule.

              So, because you wanna talk, it looks like to me, I can explain. Do you know what is a thetan? Is a word coined by Hubbard to denote the spirit, the soul. In essence is You or ME. The spiritual being we are. He did make a new word because the old words lost their meaning. Comes from Greek letter Theta Θ which symbolises Thought and Spirit.

              Now, that’s a thetan. I am talking about the people around us who with no means to understand themselves much less Life do get into more and more stupid or even horrific and evil acts. You see this every day.

              What I KNOW. What do you want to know that i KNOW? I know some things. Not much. I am no Tom Cruise, acting. I am not acting in life. i am living life like you do. I don’t know about the car crash. That’s just as you said “all talk and no trousers”. I know of a few things though that do help. In a few words. I can deliver assists and alleviate pain, a back pain or pain from some hit (you hit your knee on the corner of the table, with a simple process you can alleviate that annoying pain). I know engrams, traumatic experiences of the past which can be restimulated in present time and give one big trouble. I know about the Tone Scale (the Emotional Level or Potential of a being). Sounds ridiculous to phrase them just like that because it’s not easy to write all you know in words. Anyway, I know how to listen to people and get them up on the Tone Scale. I know we are immortal beings and each one of us is basically good. I know how to work with people and how to keep things under control when working together. (Gee, I am not satisfied with what I know, hahaha).

              Listen, my friend. I am an Indie Scientologist. One that has gone out but still is with the philosophy. The journey of life is subjective and not objective. What one knows and gets in life is subjective. it’s his reality. To the degree that one can change that and get his reality to be the reality of others one can become happy, rich, a tyrant, a god, a prophet, you name it. But YOU have to get the answers you want yourself finally. Nobody is going to give them to you, not even Tom Cruise.

            • Robert Eckert

              “all talk and no trousers”???

            • Theo Sismanides

              Are you talking to me? If yes, talk in sentient way. Don’t sit on your butt and be bored to lift your fingers on that damn computer sitting in front of you and say something more. Unless you are afraid you will lose your precious trousers if you talk.

            • Robert Eckert

              What you are saying is not making any sense at all, do you understand that?

            • Theo Sismanides

              So what don’t you understand? Why are you so bored in life to even explain in a few sentences what you don’t understand? What is your question? Wake up and ask the specific question and what you don’t understand. Let’s not make this an arena for fighting. Supposedly you people as a group, a group of critics and no-doers of Scientology have some sense and can utter things and communicate. So what is it? Don’t be bored. Speak up!

            • nottrue

              the losing my precious trousers part

            • Robert Eckert

              Your phrase “all talk and no trousers” made no sense. Instead of explaining what you are talking about, you just get nasty. Everybody else here is communicating fine.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Finally you decided to type up something that makes sense.

              Read this and you will understand. From Nevermore, I didn’t know the phrase either:

              Nevermore wrote:
              “OK, you’re a practicing Scio, so can you tell me – what is it you KNOW? Tom Cruise makes a big deal of this, as do others. WHAT do you KNOW that makes you the only people who can help at a car crash, even without medical training? Where are the wonderful communications skills? The ‘powers’? As far as I can see, you’re ‘all talk and no trousers’ as they say in my part of the world? And re your post above, who is going psycho day by day? A Thetan? Just what do you mean by that?”

            • nottrue

              look what hubbards TECH has done to you. its really sad to see. my heart bleeds for you

            • Theo Sismanides

              wow… really? your heart bleeds for me? Oh… what a compassion!! do you have a name? because that’s nottrue! all you are saying.

            • nottrue

              burn the books throw out the meter stand up and be a man get free

            • Theo Sismanides

              yes, Sir!
              (nottrue)

              P.S. on second thought, are you telling me to be a man when you cannot even spell your real name here? Go fuck off!

            • nottrue

              i woundnt want a nut like you to know my name

            • nottrue

              dont be afraid of life be a man stop hiding behind the insanity of hubbard mr theo

            • Mark

              Παρακαλώ πηγαίνετε μακριά, αγενής άνθρωπος.
              Please go away, you rude man.

            • Theo Sismanides

              oh I think some more have to go, too, together with me. Though I have to admit, it’s getting better.

              Now, if you want to have some translation in Greek, my “gentle” man, don’t hesitate to ask me. Google translation sucks. See? Wasn’t that polite of me?

            • Mark

              Here’s a language I do know:

              Va t’enculer, espèce de con!

              (No thanks to Google this time).

            • Theo Sismanides

              don’t spare yourself… make some better use in life of your filthy mouth…. Je te parles pas plus parce que tu n’ es pas important comme person. Tu es nul, zero, et tu peux pas articuler des paroles pour supporter ce que tu veux dire. Adieu, cher Mark!

            • nottrue

              theo i wish for you happiness and joy

            • Mark

              I’m sorry if I upset you Theo, but I wasn’t the one who started swearing. But then, you aren’t going to “ack” anything from someone who is “nothing, zero, and cannot articulate words to support what you want to say”, are you?

            • Yan117

              Shouldn’t it be:
              ‘Vas te faire enculer, espèce de con!’

              I think so, no?

            • Mark

              I was being colloquial. Probably should have said “Foutez-moi le camp!” as less ‘familiar’.

            • Robert Eckert

              te faire enculer would mean “have someone else buttfuck you” while t’enculer is “buttfuck yourself”, anatomically more challenging but possible for someone who has already managed to get his head wedged.

            • Once_Born

              Translators need an equal fluency in both languages. Personally, I’ll stick to Google.

            • Theo Sismanides

              You demonstrate the inability of a homo sapiens to trust and learn. No wonder Hubbard came up with the term Wog as someone who doesn’t even want to try. Google translation is bad and it’s bad manners too, to speak to people via a machine without at least some human intervention and correction. Ok, it’s convenient but I wouldn’t attempt to have some conversation with someone with a translation from Google.

              Stick to whatever you want. But don’t tell me then that it’s all fine and you guys just go along with life fine, when some simple thinks cannot go through your minds.

              Most people here are making comments telling me my english is not that good. Despite the fact that I have been using english for some time now as my second language and still learning, such comments just come as generalities. Unable to admire much about someone we end up with our fixed ideas. And we create more and more resistance. I know this game. It’s a nice low tone game.

            • Once_Born

              Of course, you are Homo Novis (a term Hubbard plagiarised from a Robert Heinlein short story). That is delusional on so many levels.

              The tragedy is that, as long as you stay off the subject of Scientology (for example talking about the flaws of Google translate) your English is reasonable, and you can make perfect sense.

              Your fundamental problem is that Scientology is incoherent, and your unique take on it muddies that water even further. You can’t make sense in any language if you try to use it to express nonsensical ideas.

              Unfortunately, you are also deliberately offensive. I don’t mind your name-calling (it serves to demonstrate Your intellectual poverty to casual readers). However, you really should understand that people here mock you because (for example) you call them names when you can’t answer a simple question. It’s got nothing to do with your English.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Give me specifics of what you are saying and you will see I never call names without being called names. Go ahead.

            • cicely neville

              “What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate.”
              Theo, most Americans of a certain age would get that reference (‘Cool Hand Luke’, starring Paul Newman) but I wouldn’t expect a European to know it, or understand the context. And it seems you have trouble understanding our context.

              We have trouble understanding you, because obviously English is a second language for you, and you mix it up with scientology jargon, which is very poor English even when we know the meaning of the Sci words. I mean it’s sloppy language. So actually, you are trying to speak two languages at once, one of which is not easy for you; and the other is just nonsense. It’s like an American speaking Greek without having a complete grasp of the language, and using baby talk at the same time.

              By the way, most of us here are well aware of what we owe ancient Greece. I am sorry to say that LRH with his limited education and intellect was not so aware. He was like a flea on an elephant; he didn’t even realize the elephant was there, let alone that he owed his life to it.

              We do want you here, and we are trying to be civil.

            • Robert Eckert
            • Theo Sismanides

              cool…. how civil can you be when you say that one of the two languages I speak is not easy for me? meaning my english? well, is that civilised now… Let me see what else I am going to hear. I may not talk as a native or a scholar but I have seen natives who actually and factually know less english than I do. And I think the numbers are growing up. I do know my grammar, syntax, expressions and do understand meanings as I am trained and studied in english a lot of definitions of words.

              So, I would like to know from all those guys who don’t understand the scientology language and call it from weird to baby talk, to make an attempt and let me know what words they think are weird or baby talk. So we can be specific. Because all this comment you are giving me is a big generalisation without any specifics.

              A failure to communicate occurs many times not because of inability to express or understand each other but also from an unwillingness to understand. As I think this is the case with most people here, I will be glad to be proven wrong.

              And please next time give specifics, not just generalities.

            • cicely neville

              All right; to be blunt, your English is not that good. And when you throw in Scientology terms, you sound incoherent. Your punctuation is not correct and your syntax is sometimes garbled. You use the wrong word, or too many words. This is not a criticism.
              English is a very difficult language, the more so because it sounds simple. Studying the definitions of individual words will not teach you the idioms of a language. ( I’m reminded of a friend of mine, who got lost in Paris and announced to a policeman that she was “une femme perdu”.)

              I am not trying to be mean, I am just pointing this out. I do know my own language very well; my college degree is in English. And I have taught foreign students, so I can sympathize .

            • Theo Sismanides

              Sympathize all you wish and teach your students well. I am so sorry that teachers and schools still either ignore or doubt the benefits of clearing up words and looking up their definitions and doing the whole thing as in the Study tech course. It’s amazing how much time people spend invalidating one another instead of looking at the basics of their own profession. At least out of curiosity. So, don’t bother with my english, lol, I know how good or bad it is because (oh that’s not gonna make you very happy) a thetan is above symbol (words) and can have a command of them one way or another. Sorry, if you cannot read longer phrases and telling me about my punctuation and syntax. Well, I am not a scholar nor do I intend to be. Don’t concentrate so much on the words and their significance, try to get a meaning out of all I am saying. And I will say it again and again as people here make this same “mistake”, give specifics when you want to say something or someone is wrong on something. Otherwise it comes across as another generality, as I have said before.

            • cicely neville

              Every classroom I’ve ever been in had a dictionary; i used to read them for fun. American kids are still being taught to use them ( though they use computers now.) Whenever i found a word I didn’t know, my father would say “Go look it up.” I was also taught to get the meaning from the context , which is how I do understand what you are trying to say. Millions of people both read for context and look up words all the time, without needing Study Tech.

              I don’t have time to edit all you’ve written, but I will point out that “Sorry, if you cannot read longer phrases (longer than what?) should be, “Sorry (no comma) if you cannot read long phrases….”
              The phrase “telling me about my punctuation” makes no sense; but I see that you mean “you can’t read long phrases (but you are telling me) about….” An English speaker would say, “but you are trying to tell me” or, more clearly, ” but you are presuming to lecture me”.

              “At least out of curiosity” is not a sentence; it has no subject or verb; it has to be part of a complete sentence , so you would need to change that period after ‘profession’ to a comma.

              You say “a Thetan is above symbol(s)”; if you mean that words mean whatever you want them to, well, all communication breaks down at that point, doesn’t it, if you suddenly decide to change a meaning arbitrarily. Hubbard did this all the time. “Reasonable”, for instance, has a negative connotation in Scientology which you will not find in any dictionary. The rest of the English- speaking world agrees that being reasonable is a very good thing.

              I do admire you for writing in a second language.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Cicely, I see and thank you for your care. First of all I wanted to thank you for writing to this international council of churches or wherever you wrote to protest about supporting the church on the anortions. That’s so good. So, hostility has no place when people fight for some ideals. We may have some different realities but that is ok and we can still communicate.

              And this is the essence of being a different person. I was always curious and wanted to know new things. It’s the least I can do in this life.
              P.S.,I am not on my computer so when I get on it I will write to you more extensively.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I answered from my phone but it looks like the answer didn’t get through.

              First of all, Cicely, I would like to tell you that sometimes we know so little of a person so it’s hard to find out where they are coming from with few discussions on the net.

              For example, I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for writing to the International Council of Churches or whoever you wrote to about the issue of abortions in the church. I will repeat it many times that many of us have left because of all this. So we do share common realities and it’s a surprise sometimes to see a person we think it’s an adversary to be doing things in our favour and for our beliefs.

              We may not agree on all things but who does? we may disagree in many things and maybe some people here just because i “believe” the spiritual side of man, think that I am some weird type of person. That does not mean though, that we cannot communicate and share our different viewpoints.

              On the discussion about words, which I think is the most important thing I would have to say to people since we all communicate with words, the study tech is not just looking up a word. There is a whole series of actions one does with children or foreign language speaking people or with adults. It was fascinating to me to see that I could grasp those definitions, see the differences between different meanings of the same word, use them in sentences, go back to the etymology and finally get a conceptual understanding having cleared a word fully. It’s really fascinating and is just a method of teaching someone how to study. nothing more, nothing less.

              But since I run into the dangers of being accused of making some propaganda about scientology I am more careful here. nevertheless, and having been to a College, having done upper english and french classes and of course high school, never have I seen someone to teach a method to people on how to study. We were just given data in words and that was about it. It was a nightmare.

              Anyway, thanks for your nice communication and again thank you very much for taking a stand on the issue of the horrendous abortions the CofS is enforcing on Sea Org members. Thank you, indeed.

            • cicely neville

              Theo –
              I’m on the other side of the world, so your message came early in my morning when I’m doing chores, and i don’t have an iphone. I only check in here once a day anyway; it’s all I have time for. But I see both your messages and thank you for your kind words.

              It wasn’t the International Council of Churches , it was the National C of C. I couldn’t reach them ( and ThetaBara, who did, Didn’t get any help from them.) So I wrote to the Presiding Bishop’s office of my own church, the Episcopal Church of America. I don’t think I deserve any thanks for that; it was no more than my duty to speak out, and I knew that my church had to listen and respond.

              No one thinks you are weird for believing that man has a spiritual side. I believe that myself. My definition of ‘Spiritual’, though, is quite different from yours. (The beliefs of my church are very close to those of your own Greek Orthodox. ) What gets people upset with you is that you still think lrh was a good man with useful ideas, when there is a ton of evidence that he was a criminal , a really evil person. We can’t understand how you can ignore this. Saying his ideas are useful is like saying that the Nazis had great sports programs.

              i believe in a loving God who gives eternal life as a free gift. It can’t be earned and doesn’t have to be. And it’s not just endless life, but a different kind of life. When you see beauty or hear great music and feel lifted up out of yourself; when you feel a great love for someone or something that changes you in your deepest heart, you experience the kind of life that Christ spoke of, and that those who love God – not just people with the ‘correct’ belief system (you don’t have to be a christian) – will enjoy fully in his presence. As St. Paul wrote, “Now we see as through dim glass; but then, face to face.”

              I don’t worry about heaven and hell. Maybe there is nothing after this life – no one knows for sure. But living in love and compassion is living in the presence of God right now, and that’s what Christians are supposed to do.

              If lrh showed up on my doorstep and offered me the whole Bridge, with ‘eternities’ (Another of his made-up words – ‘eternity’ is always singular)even if the “Bridge’ was real, I would laugh and then feel sorry for him (which I try to do anyway; he was a very miserable person.) Jesus of Nazareth is all I want or need, for this life or any other.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Cecile, I see and thank you for opening up to me all your thoughts and your heart. Our strongest bond then is that spirituality and the belief therein.

              Beyond that, to me, there is nothing more valuable except for some real life action. And in my whole life I have dedicated myself to that spiritual side. I maybe wearing another kind of clothes and uniform but I do fight that fight. And I was very happy and proud of what you and ThetaBara did. Because I always knew that there are people, who might not even recognise or know each other but they fight for the same thing.

              I am a free person to the degree I understand life. Understanding is not a bad thing. God would want us to understand and all I wanted in my life is to understand things a little bit better. I can be a better man through understanding. I may die in the attempt and sometimes feel all was in vain. But there is moments when I feel that understanding is all we are here for.

              I am not with the Christian church anymore. And I am not with the Scientology church either. I am on my own. It has been painful, but it is now rewarding to me. I can stand alone and be myself. Good and bad. And I can still communicate and be ridiculed for what I believe sometimes but through understanding I have kept my sanity. It’s better like that. I keep my viewpoint and make friends with people who have respect for my views. Same goes to you and your views and beliefs.

              If all churches united, not under one God’s name, but in the name of Man, this would have been a better world. I am sorry to see this is not happening. Man is Man and I wanted to understand him better. I think I do now. And I will keep on trying to understand him better not just him but as much of Life as I can.

            • joan nieman

              Cicely, those were beautiful words. I may even read them three or four times. You explained Christianity very creatively!

            • Tony Ortega

              Joan, are you aware that you’re putting a bunch of comments on a post that’s nearly three months old? Do you understand how to find the current story?

            • joan nieman

              Yes, Thank you Tony!

            • joan nieman

              Blah blah blah!

            • Theo Sismanides

              All of your 4 comments to me were antagonistic. Obviously you cannot just discuss or ask things. Obviously you know better. I don’t even know if you have done any Scientology and as I told you even if you did you must have had terrible experiences to be like that. I am so sorry for this but it’s not my fault.

            • joan nieman

              Theo you are obviously trying to bring a negative presence to the Bunker but it won’t work. All your words and gibberish only get to be annoying. We are against the cult here! We will never speak for it. You are wasting your time trying to sell your beliefs to us.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Hahaha! You see I am trying to bring a positive aspect. I don’t belong to the church but I am a Scientologist who has had wins not from the church but from the soup cans technology as you call it. If you guys then talk about my philosophy in such derogatory and ignorance I do have the right to present my aspect too. Otherwise you become something like the cult the church has become. Let the people speak their mind free and don’t create another cult.

            • Once_Born

              If you believe that we don’t understand, it follows that we would not be able to formulate a meaningful question. Consequently, it is up to you to explain what you mean clearly – to communicate, as you have been taught.

              If Scientology works you should be able to do this.

            • Once_Born

              Be careful mate… think of the precioussss (trousers).
              Gollum (pardon)

            • Mark

              As in “She’s all fur coat and no knickers, ducky…”

            • scottishinlondon

              it’s an English (UK) expression meaning someone who talks big but doesn’t follow it up, big mouth but no balls, so to speak

            • Robert Eckert

              Somewhat like Texan “all hat and no cattle” then?

            • scottishinlondon

              Yes I guess so. It is a bit old-fashioned, generally used of pushy men who fancy themselves a lot

            • Mark

              Or “All mouth and no trousers” – loud-mouthed, bare-arsed.

            • scottishinlondon

              I think it’s Northern English, is that right?

            • Mark

              Should think so. Like “She’s no better than she should be”.

            • scottishinlondon

              “She was all over him like a cheap suit!”

            • Mark

              Hee-hee! “…so she must have liked him!”

            • Poison Ivy

              The Texan version is “All hat and no cattle”.

              Or the more generic American “All sizzle and no steak.”

            • Once_Born

              CF: “All arse and pockets” – empty bluster

            • Mark

              (Cackles) never heard that one before – must use it next time (absit omen) a Theo appears.

            • Poison Ivy

              I kind of like that. Is it sort of like “All hat and no cattle”?

            • media_lush

              ” I can deliver assists and alleviate pain, a back pain or pain from some hit ”

              TOTAL BOLLOCKS!!!

            • nottrue

              hubbards philosophy is driving you mad.

            • Nevermore

              Thanks for the honest answers Theo. 🙂

            • marti

              “Anyway, I know how to listen to people and get them up on the Tone Scale.”
              What tone scale have you gotten us up to now?

            • media_lush

              can you stop being such a cunt when you argue?

            • Robert Eckert

              He’s demonstrating his communication skills.

            • media_lush

              I see what you did there….

            • i-Betty

              Hi Theo 🙂

              I welcome you here, like I would welcome anybody who has an opinion to share; we’re a free and open community, here. But I don’t like what you did there with Poison Ivy’s name. It seems a little nasty, especially following on from her perfectly reasonable, pretty non-partisan comment. We love Ivy, and I feel that you would be in a stronger position to get your point across if you apologised to her for making this personal.

              Even if you decide not to apologise, I will still welcome your viewpoint.

            • Poison Ivy

              Thanks for the defense, iBetty. Big hug.

              I take no offense at Theo. I feel for him. He’s angry and strikes out ad-hominem because he doesn’t have a real logical comeback to some of the arguments presented here. Scientology doesn’t teach you any really effective rhetorical skills to make a cogent debating argument; it only teaches you the TR’s, which include “broken record technique” responses and things like “clear skies fair weather.” Or “Attack, don’t defend.” To learn communication and argument skills, try a debate class. Or improv!

              I do get it. Theo believes wholeheartedly in his “applied religious philosophy” and wants to defend it. But you know, you can’t really defend a theology because by definition, it’s about FAITH. And FAITH by definition means NOT PROVABLE BY FACT. Sorry, Theo, but Hubbard didn’t “prove” anything. Even Marty admitted that! This whole deal about Thetans and dropping the body and whole track, etc…I have no desire to question it or deride it, no more than I want to question or deride someone who believes in the 7 circles of Hell or in Mecca or in Valhalla. Your faith is your business, and good for you for having one. It makes life on this sad little blue ball that much more bearable.

              I’d caution you to come here amongst people who are genuinely concerned about how Scientology the official church uses its religious cloaking to hurt – yes, even kill – people and crow to us that your faith is superior to whatever you may think ours is ( hint – people here come from a lot of different backgrounds and beliefs systems; this isn’t a homogenous place.)

              If you do, you are probably going to get hit a barrage of some things that are often quite disturbing to Scientologists – provable FACTS.

            • Captain Howdy

              Easy on the Ouzo there, Theo..you’re starting to babble.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I drink beer Captain… and in Alexander’s name I would have taken your head off but…
              you are far away… hahahaha. Oh you angered me with the… nah I am not even gonna say it… it’s not worthwhile… Alexander vs…? who was that other barbarian, I don’t recall…. hahaha.

              Anyway, Captain I don’t want to disrupt your fleet here and your sailors but I pass by some time for some fun. Makes me forget the darkness of life as it has become, too many disagreements. Cheers, Capt! To you and your spiffy group of dedicated sailors!!!!

            • Captain Howdy

              Cheers to you to Theo

              And..

              “Genghis Khan conquered more than twice as much land as any other person in history, bringing Eastern and Western civilizations into contact in the process. His descendants, including Ogodei and Khubilai, were also prolific conquerors, taking control of Eastern Europe, the Middle East and the rest of China, among other places. The Mongols even invaded Japan and Java before their empire broke apart in the 14th century. Genghis Khan’s last ruling descendant was finally deposed in 1920.”

            • Once_Born

              You are confusing Howdy with Hubbard, who really did have a little fleet.

            • Once_Born

              You seem to be saying that Hubbard must have been right, because he wrote a lot of words.
              Sorry – millions of word of nonsense are still nonsense – as you are working towards proving yourself, today.

            • joan nieman

              Theo, I don’t believe you have a clue what you are trying to say. Just go make some soup or something…maybe clam chowder? That sounds good.

            • Theo Sismanides

              oh! And you know what you are talking about of course! LOL !

    • edge

      I think the advent of the web, and specifically social media was the tipping point. Before, the church could silence traditional media and most of its misdeeds could be kept hidden from the general public. No amount of money can take down all the revealing blogs and youtube videos, and since the Church is so stat-driven, it’s easy for anyone to see that many of those youtube videos and blogs get more views than the Church’s official site. And of course you get Katie Holmes and Leah Remini and Paul Haggis. The Church has three main weapons: Intimidation, litigation, and disconnection. These three celebrities weren’t afraid to leave in a public manner, so why should the media be afraid? You’re seeing that now, with more coverage of the church’s abuses and more members leaving.

    • Mark

      Well said – nowadays ‘Scientology Armageddon’ is not so much a case of if, but when.

    • Yan117

      “the regular commenters usually outstandingly cover the thoughts I would bring up”

      I hold the same feeling. Sometimes I feel something needs be said, I then just scroll down a little and boom! there it is: my point exactly. It’s perfect for a lazy man such as myself.

      • Grant C

        LOL, so true!

        But the more the merrier! Come on in, the water is fine:)

  • 0tessa

    You may use your newly acquired communication skills outside the church, if you like, but you’d better not use them inside the church. Inside Scientology enterprise they will only get you into a lot of trouble. Just a very simple question like ‘Where is Shelly Miscavige?”, leads to your ex-communication.

  • ze moo

    While the ‘costs’ to date for walking the bridge (Thank you Claire and Tony, you explain the minutia very clearly) is under 40 thousand dollars US, that doesn’t include IAS reging, helping with the bake sale, or any of the other costs associated with clamdom. How much does it cost to ride the bus to Seattle and chant ‘not one thin dime for wollershiem’ ? How much to get the LA county commissioners to change the name of the road to ‘L Ron Hubbard Way’? How much to buy, rebuild and furnish an ‘Ideal Org’ and then pay rent to corporate central for the privilege of using it?

    The only conveyance that allows you to walk out horizontally is a scaffold or the old pirates ‘plank’. I don’t think I want to traverse either.

  • Bella Legosi

    “Recall another’s no-communication with others.”—So, would that include Disconnection? I wonder if that has come up in an auditing session?

    And I have to ask……..wtf is “owned sex”?

  • Jgg2012

    They should compare these costs to the cost of seeing a psychiatrist or hypnotherapist. If Scientology really did have a monopoly on self-help therapy, you could justify any cost people were willing to pay. But if the same help is available elsewhere for half as much, then its obviously a scam.

    • Poison Ivy

      Ah yes, but no psychiatrist, psychologist, hypnotherapist, or 12-step group (free by the way) promises you superhuman abilities when you’re done with your sessions!

      How much would YOU pay if you were promised the ability to find a parking space or change the lights from red to green any time you wanted? To be able to “Go exterior” at will and have control over other people?

      (What would it take to get you to believe such things were possible?)

      • George Layton

        Pink’s and grey’s.

        • Poison Ivy

          I’ll take some of those, please.

        • Mrs Libnish

          That was just plain funny.

      • Jgg2012

        Actually, it would be unethical to promise a result, and also not to warn of drawbacks (cost, side affects) but Scientology is unlicensed and justifies everything as religion.

      • Observer

        Professional therapists may not promise superhuman abilities, but they deliver superhuman abilities 100% as successfully as Scientology does.

  • i-Betty

    “Flow 1 = something that happened to you.Flow 2 = doing something to another.
    Flow 3 = others doing things to others.
    Flow 0 = you doing something to yourself.”

    Sounds like a couple of Dutch coffee shops I know of.

    • Poison Ivy

      Ha ha!

    • 0tessa

      You mean “blow 1″, ” blow 2 …”?

  • Jefferson Hawkins

    When I left the Sea Org in 2005 and had to make it on my own in the “wog” world, I was surprised to learn that the so-called “wogs” communicated as well as, and in many cases better than, the Scientologists I had known and worked with for 35 years. They had no problem communicating.

    Within the closed world of Scientology, we had always told ourselves and each other that we were superior communicators, that the “wogs” were horrible at communicating and only WE had the secrets of effective communication – all of Hubbard’s complex, arcane rules and formulas. We had been through the “Communication Course” and had achieved “Grade One Release” – able to communicate to anyone on any subject at any time.

    The observable truth – the “dirty little secret” if you will – is that Scientologists as a group are NOT better communicators than their “wog” counterparts. They just aren’t. If Scientologists were truly better communicators than anyone else – well for one thing, they would dominate the comments section of this and other blogs. They don’t. They can’t. They would dominate any discussion about Scientology in the media. They don’t – just look at Tom Cruise on Matt Laurer, Starkey and Guillaume and the Angry Wives on CNN, Tommy Davis anywhere.

    And the leader of the Church won’t appear or speak anywhere outside of carefully scripted and stage managed events to the inner core.

    The fact is, the communication of Scientologists is crippled. They cannot see certain information, visit certain websites, talk to certain people. If they hear anything critical, they are taught to cut communication and walk away. Or disconnect. Within the Church there are many things they cannot say. They cannot question Hubbard. They can never criticize or question Church management or any senior Church official. They can’t speak openly about outnesses they observe. They can’t talk about their case or auditing. They can’t appear upset or “downtone.” They have to keep an “uptone” façade.

    And Scientologists, when they talk to someone, usually approach them with an “agenda” – to disseminate Scientology, get them to come into an org, get them on their next service, get money from them.

    It was a big relief for me, on leaving Scientology to be able to speak and talk openly about anything. To be totally honest and say what I think. To freely talk with another person without having to have an agenda. I
    know many exes have experienced the same thing.

    So where are these “superior communication skills” they hype and sell? They just don’t exist, not in the observable universe.

    • Sherbet

      May I kiss you, Jeff?

    • Poison Ivy

      Love hearing you communicate your genuine “uptoneness” these days, Jefferson – you’re amazing.

    • Gerard Plourde

      “So where are these ‘superior communication skills’ they hype and sell? They just don’t exist, not in the observable universe.”

      You’re absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that the system created by Hubbard actually is designed to deaden critical thinking skills. These skills are essential for effective communication. Attempting to communicate using Hubbard tech is like trying to swim with your arms tied to your sides

      • Theo Sismanides

        Hubbard is not here, but we are. The Indie Scientologists. There is no deadening of any thinking skills. The only deadening there is here is the deadening and ignorance of what life really is and who YOU really are! That’s a damn bad deadening now. I wish you a good recovery.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I wish you a good recovery too, Theo.

          • Theo Sismanides

            yeah, but from what? because i was specific!

        • i-Betty

          Do you feel, as an independent Scientologist, that you are in some way superior to those of us who aren’t? This is a genuine question, Theo, and I would be interested to hear your answer. The way you responded to Gerard makes you sound as though you believe your viewpoint to be superior, and that’s one of the things that kill a debate dead.

          • Truthiwant

            Theo has seen that aspect of Scientology that makes you believe that normal beings (‘wogs’) don’t know something that they know. They pity normal Homo Sapiens.

            This doesn’t have anything to do with the money they have spent. Instead, it has to do with the indoctrination that they have received and believe in.

            • Nevermore

              I am not normal Homo Sapiens. My mother swears I am an alien!

            • Theo Sismanides

              normal beings are not called “wogs”. Scientologists have had that MU and spead it around. Normal beings who are not Scientologists are called Scientologists! The definition of a wog is: WOG, 1. worthy Oriental gentleman. This means a common ordinary run-ofthe-

              mill garden-variety humanoid. (SH Spec 82, 6611C29) 2 . a w o g i s

              somebody who isn’t even trying. (SH Spec 73, 6608C02)

            • Poison Ivy

              Um, sorry…that’s the Scientology definition of Wog, Theo. Per Hubbard, who would’ve been loathe to admit that he was using a racist term. Wog doesn’t stand for “Worthy Oriental Gentleman….” that was what apologists using the word explained it away as in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Truth is, it was in use for at least 100 years before that, as highly derogatory term – a slightly more polite and subtle term than the ‘n’ word – that officers of the British Empire used to refer to the dark-skinned people they conquered – Indians, Asians and Arabs.

              Hubbard may have learned that term during his travels as a kid, or from the old timers milling around the Explorers Club. But talk to any linguist. It’s a racist term, and Hubbard intended it to denigrate non-Scientologists.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Very good explanation of the non Scientology term. (See I am not using the word Wog Term). Permit me to say that even the charlatan Hubbard would have some empathy for fellow man Non Scientologist, so he would make a difference between a “Wog” and a non Scientologist. Still some people try to communicate with other viewpoints that not necessarily agree with theirs. You wouldn’t call such people Wogs. That’s from the Tech Dictionary and it doesn’t say Wog=A non Scientologist.

              I trust per our former discussions and per what I remember you having a much higher level of education than most of us here in several fields of the humanities, that you can accept now that Mr. Hubbard never intended at least in writing to refer to non scientologists as Wogs. Thank you.

            • Espiando

              Theo, I just have one question: You’ve made it quite clear that you’re still a Scientologist, of the Indie variety, of course. You believe that Hubbard is Source. There’s no issue there. So, here’s the question: do you believe that the Tone Scale that Hubbard published in Science of Survival is completely correct?

            • Theo Sismanides

              Espiando… of course i am not sure it’s completely correct. I would like to have some people and point out some things to me that indicate to me as we say. That is they have to make sense. Marty posted on his site about tones that are above 30.0

              Here they are:

              Expanded point marked with * asterisk.

              *Bliss, Pan-equilibrium (Non-Duality)

              *Serenity, equilibrium (Justice)

              40.0 Serenity of Beingness Know

              *Compassion (Responsibility)

              *Care (Nurturing)

              *Empathy (Transcendence of ego/pan-emotion)

              *Appreciation (Acknowledgment)

              *Release (Letting go)

              30.0 Postulates Not Know

              But I was not convinced. You see anyone can say anything… Honestly Hubbard took time to write whole books about the Tone Scale for example to explain those tones. You cannot convince somebody by throwing a couple of Qualities there and just naming them.

              So, what’s your point really? Have you observed something?

            • Espiando

              Oh, you didn’t go down far enough. Let me clarify the question further: do you agree with Hubbard’s wording on Tone 1.1?

            • Theo Sismanides

              I do. What’s wrong with it?

            • Gerard Plourde

              You agree with ” people at tone level 1.1 (covert hostility) are said to be inclined to sexual perversity and homosexuality?”

            • Espiando

              Very simple, Theo. If you do, you want me dead. Eliminated, quietly and without sorrow, simply for the gender with which I conduct my 2D relations. Guess what? I’m going to eliminate you, quietly and without sorrow, before you have the chance to eliminate me. And this time, me and my tribe can take inspiration from Malcolm X: By any means necessary. Any Scilon who states that he or she believes in the wording of Tone 1.1 is my target.

              The Jews aren’t the only ones with the right to say “Never again”, you know.

            • Mark

              And answer came there none…

            • Theo Sismanides

              Come on, why didn’t you say so in the first place? That was a tricky question then. I am not going to expand on this silly answer (not about the way you conduct your 2D relations, that’s up to you) but about all the rest. Be happy and do not need others to approve, disapprove, evaluate, invalidate your tone or way of life.

              You don’t want me to attempt a guess. Are you coming up to 2.0 or down? It’s your choice Espiando and it’s your life. I wouldn’t pin point a person on the tone scale solely on this 2D preferences and conduct.

            • Truthiwant

              Cut it out, Theo. You are making a fool of yourself. You obviously don’t understand where Hubbard was coming from.
              In Italian I would say ‘Vergogna’ which means shame on you.
              Do some soul searching.
              If you really think that Hubbard is such a great being after that soul searching then I advise you to keep it to yourself.
              He was a criminal and you are supporting him.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Who are you, tell me your name. And I will send, I swear to God, David Miscavige after you. Hahaha!

              You people have enough nerve, some of you, to say Vergogna to me.. don’t worry Parlo Italiano… abastanza bene… and you cannot even pronounce your real names. Vergogna to you signore or signora whatever you are. Watch your filthy mouth with me! Idiot!

            • Truthiwant

              La tua risposta dimostra per l’ennesima volta da dove vengono gli Scientologist. Sono persone volgare, non sanno stare di fronte a qualsiasi critica e l’unica cosa che riescono a fare è insultare la gente. Svegliati, Theo, e renditi conto quanto fa schifo Scientology.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Gracie tanti, Truthiwant. Scusa pero la tua lingua era male a me… e mi dicci delle cose come Vergogna. Vergogna per quale cose. Lasca mi fare a ti lascio fare. Se tu sei buono con me i sono buono con te. Quanto parli a me allora non parli per il Hubbard e le tue male idee per lui. Parliamo di altra cosa se vuoi. Io non parlo male per delle persone che tu credi. OK?

            • Truthiwant

              Va bene. Niente piu insulti. Anche perchè non ha senso. Le persone civili devono accettare le differenze di opinione. Pace.

            • Grant C

              I didn’t know your guy spoke French!

            • George Layton

              It’s all Greek to me.

            • Sherbet

              Wow! I understood both of you, and I haven’t heard Italian spoken on a daily basis in decades. It all came back to me, like riding a bike.

            • Grant C

              I thought they were speaking Spanish?

            • Sherbet

              Nope.

            • Grant C

              (I was just kidding around)

            • Poison Ivy

              Thank you for your politeness, Theo, but I don’t accept that. When Hubbard wrote of an “ordinary, garden variety humanoid,” I submit he meant non-Scientologists. He refers to “Wog law” (the justice system) and “Wog science” (er…anything not Hubbardian science) and “wog jobs” (regular employment not related to Scientology). Hubbard in his own speeches and writing have also revealed his abhorrent racism. Now, granted, he was a product of his age and upbringing – but one cannot deny that “Mankind’s Greatest Friend” was really only interested in White mankind. http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/deny.htm

            • Theo Sismanides

              still the use of wog for all non scientologists is incorrect. Maybe that’s news to you but that’s right.

            • Poison Ivy

              Show us the references, please, Theo, where LRH says exactly what Wogs are. Not “ordinary humanoid.” That doesn’t prove your point. I know Hubbard didn’t follow this protocol, but in the Wog world, you can’t simply say “That’s right,” without facts backing up your POV.

            • Theo Sismanides

              what I gave you is from the Technical dictionary.

            • Grant C

              But Hubbard bowed at the feet of the great Lamas of the Orient!

            • Truthiwant

              I couldn’t believe it when i first heard this word.
              I knew exactly where it came from being English.
              Here in Italy nobody really understood the word and I have my serious doubts that Theo really understands it.

            • Eivol Ekdal

              I bet LRH was fond of the odd lawn jockey as well.

            • i-Betty

              .

            • Mark

              He probably learnt it from the dubious characters he met on one of his several London trips in the 50s. Like his apartheid pals in South Africa. Always open to a bit of casual bigotry, our Ron…

            • ze moo

              Ron spent enough real time in china to see the British Empire at its height, he heard the term WOG in china and he grabbed on to it. Had Lroon actually talked to any Mongolian bandits, he would have been disabused to use that term. Or perhaps really abused if he used that term.

            • Mark

              China was never part of the empire. And real time in China? The young Tublard might just have heard it on brief stopovers in Shanghai or Hong Kong, where there was a colonial presence, but in his diaries of the time he always called the Chinese “gooks”.

              “Wog” doesn’t come from “worthy/wily Oriental gentleman”, and originated not in China, but in African colonies among low-ranking British troops trying to make themselves feel a cut above the locals. It gained its widest (and mercifully brief) currency as racist abuse in the UK in the fifties, after black immigration from the Caribbean started – Chinese immigrants were abused as “Chinks” rather than “Wogs”.

              Still, I’m sure he’d have pooped his pants if he had met any real bandits in China!

            • Poison Ivy

              Some etymologists believe wog was a shortened form of “golliwog,” which was an ugly stereotypical black “mammy/sammy” doll popular in the mid-late 1800’s – early 1900’s.

            • Poison Ivy
            • Captain Howdy

              A “golliwog” was a like a Wild Man of Borneo doll they use to sell to kids in England back in the 1800’s.

            • Mark

              About as near the truth as we’re likely to get – unless “golliwog” is cognate with “polliwog”, which I believe is still the standard US equivalent of UK “tadpole”.

              (P.S. About the only thing your link doesn’t mention is the Robertson’s jam trademark!)

            • TongDaddy

              interesting

            • joan nieman

              Poison, I remember my mother showing me how to make them with her left over wool! Yuk!

            • Robert Eckert

              He called the Chinese “chinks”; he would not have called them “gooks” which is a Korean War term for “Korean” (from “hangook”, their self-name).

            • joan nieman

              That is correct.

            • Captain Howdy

              Anybody who thought he was Cecil Rhodes reincarnated didn’t mean “worthy oriental gentleman” when he used the word “wog”.

            • Poison Ivy

              Again, Capt., right on the head.

            • GlibWog

              bawwwwwwwwhahahhahahha

            • scottishinlondon

              etymology based on acronyms is almost always spurious, words don’t develop like that

            • Captain Howdy

              1.

              wog

              { /wäg/ (n.) offensive slang. 1925-30, from
              ‘Golliwogg’: a 19th century blackface doll; or alternately, an acronym
              of ‘(W)orthy (O)riental (G)entleman’ }

              British English:

              1. *racist* a black African or dark-skinned South Asian (usually Indian or Pakistani)

            • Poison Ivy

              Sir Lawrence of Arabia describes his fellow Brits in the desert referring to all the Arabs as “Wogs.”

            • joan nieman

              There you go…as blatant and ignorant as the so-called master himself.

          • Theo Sismanides

            Who aren’t Independent or who are not Scientologists? I guess you mean the latter! My answer is No! I don’t feel superior than you. But I don’t feel inferior either. Just because I am a Scientologist doesn’t make me a victim here, I can stand up to my words, trousers or not. Gerard and many others “Gerards” have been making comments and ridiculing both me (even when they don’t even know me) or even scientology which obviously the don’t now in depth either. So I speak as they speak to me. You know anything about Tone Levels? Well… it can get pretty nasty when you don’t watch your back.

            So, I don’t feel superior at all. Some people wanna make me look inferior though and that’s where it gets nasty. I wish I knew what each one of them has done in scientology so that I know where they are coming from. That’s not possible though so I just communicate as I see fit.

            • Anonymookme

              Theo,
              after reading Claire’s description of the Expanded Grades, it is very, very, very difficult not to ridicule Scientology.
              I’ve never heard anything more ludicrous in my life. And people pay for this silly shit? Amazing!

            • Theo Sismanides

              See that’s the problem with this world. You cannot rely on others to let you know what there. You have to find out yourself. Actually people can also do co-audits with one another and yes, the ridiculous thing is the prices the church charges for such services. otherwise auditing is quite good. Don’t let anyone make you get some fixed idea before you try it yourself. Indies even offer much lower prices.

            • Anonymookme

              Um,
              Flow 4= I’d rather chew tin foil & chalk than be audited. Thanks Theo, but no thanks

            • i-Betty

              That’s so sad, because I honestly think that if you handled yourself a little more circumspectly people would be more than happy to engage in honest debate with you. Do you think perhaps it’s the language barrier? Because I don’t think you realise how you are coming across to us. You seem very hostile, even though the first responses to your comments weren’t at all nasty.

              You, yourself, described the feeling of entering the lion’s den when you come here. I credit you for coming here despite this, but I feel that more could be gained from both sides if you stopped assuming everyone would be automatically ‘against’ you, and instead held back a little and allowed the debate to flow.

              You must realise that this is an almost entirely anti-Scientology community, so it’s unlikely your opinions and beliefs will be embraced here – particularly if you get personal like you did with Poison Ivy (which upset me) – but we’re not the enemy, and if you allow us to express our opinions, we will allow you to express yours…if you are rational.

            • Poison Ivy

              Very nicely said, iBetty. And this is my point about Scientologists and their claim of “superior” communication skills. I just don’t see it. I see a lot of Bunkerites with some stellar communication skills (like you!) and who are willing to engage in honest debate with indies, even though there are others on this blog who have made up their minds. Most of the people here will engage politely and fairly (even when we’re personally insulted.)

              When indies (or trolls) challenge the veracity of comments from real exes who have been there – like Jefferson, or Derek, or Hole, or anyone else here – that gets my dander up.

              Personally I am all for the indies embracing any aspects of Scientology they want (that don’t hurt people or break up families) and I don’t doubt they see some benefit in it…my only argument is just that there is a built-in contradiction when they say they are against the oppressive tactics of the church but totally pro-Hubbard. Because even though yes, Miscavige is the Evil Prince, it was Hubbard who created those original policies and the framework for the oppression. In order to get around that they have to cherry pick their Hubbard writings and policy statements and/or re-interpret them like crazy. So how can you have an honest Indie Scientology movement without at least admitting that Hubbard was wrong (to put it kindly) about a hell of a lot of things?

            • i-Betty

              Oh, thank you!

              You, too, Ivy 🙂

            • Interested

              Beautifully put!

            • Interested

              Hear hear!

            • Theo Sismanides

              See sweet i-Betty, I do enter a lion’s den ( I was gonna call it a lion’s nest, which would be more cute, hahaha) but it happens that those lions here are having my philosophy as prey… So… that’s bad too isn’t it? Why dont’ they go hunt Catholic Antelopes instead?

              No, they want Scientology BLOOD! Well. there’s is Lion Hunters too then. I am sorry! Planet Earth i-Betty… all this animal kingdom… and the worst of them… Man… don’t mess with him. He is going to eat you up alive!

              So… apart from the killings and huntings. I admit i come over here and it’s free like a jungle. Anyone can say anything. So sometimes I get on the rope and jump into Tony O. Jungle Blog. It’s great feeling. I get a bit smashed, some I smash… time goes by… what else do you want? Oh I make some nice acquaintances from time to time… that’s about it. The day is gone, we go to bed and forget everything about it. Is there something else you wanna add to this? I hope I am not that hostile again as you are saying, so, come on let’s discuss. I would start from how many people do know for sure and have that certainty that they are spiritual beings. That’s my first discussion as that’s a most important things. Who do you think you really are? Not you you, but in general the people. WHo they think they are. Maybe Tony O. one day could afford me that Topic.

            • i-Betty

              Right at this second I am a girl with a pounding headache! 🙂 So I will bid you n’night.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I am sorry to hear about the headache…. Have a good night, too! I am staying a bit and will go.

            • GlibWog

              I’m sorry Betty.. Hope you feel better… sigh

            • Poison Ivy

              I feel ya. Good night!

            • q-bird

              i-Betty darling! *kiss* to your cheek ~ quite a work-out for you this day.

              thank you for your posts. now rest easy.

            • Mark

              Ooh! More Perseids?

            • i-Betty

              So pretty 🙂

            • WildaBeast

              Certainty that you are a spiritual being is absolutely not dependent on any doctrine. Any. I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic. I am also absolutely certain that there are non-physical forces in the universe, because I’ve experienced them all my life. But I’ve never really found that anyone else’s observations about the numinous have been of any use to me, with the exception of some conversations with individuals whose observations tally to a certain degree with my own. I believe that experience of the numinous is so dependent on the individual that any attempt to doctrinalize such experiences ends up destroying the truths contained therein.

            • Theo Sismanides

              WildaBeast, it could be like that. However, since Man (I am talking about the great majority of Mankind, not the exceptions in it) always needed a hand otherwise he was doing all kinds of stupid things, religions took advantage of that and had their say.

              I prefer, for example, to have even a church than have nothing instead. I wish I didn’t have to. But given the depths Man the unfathomable could go, I am afraid it has to be a slow process over the eons as it has been. I don’t know of the outcome. Still, I can say that right now Man knows much more about Life than he used to, even 100 or even 20 years ago. There is a fast paced progress but this progress is only made in the realm of the studies about the physical universe. The so called Humanities have been left behind. This is a great imbalance in Man’s further progress. We can see that all around the planet.

              Unfit politicians, unholy (or too holy) religious leaders, uneducated people who have learned to push buttons and get things done in automatic. The machine (and its automaticity) has entered our every day lives to a dangerous degree. One big factory (nuclear like in Japan) or some mechanical great installation (the Oil Drilling Installations or how they called), in the Gulf of Mexico get destroyed and affect a whole portion of a planet. And Man is unable to control those Automaticities. The Machine is ahead of him like the Frankenstein Monster story.

              So, it is great that you do see our spiritual nature but look also around you and see what others see. Sometimes it is not important what we see but what others see. Why? Because their weird actions or stupidities or whatever can affect the lives of many around them.

              But you see the Status Quo does not want Man to understand his true nature much less be educated in it. That is why they took over scientology, too like so many other religions and practices and change them from inside. It would be extremely dangerous to have spiritual beings who know who and what they are and what they are capable of doing. That goes against the Status Quo and since this is a Prison Planet one is not allowed to learn about such things but only under their control and to the degree they would want to so they don’t run into any risk or danger of being overthrown. So every such movement should produce the right products for them and nothing more. It is super-controlled by them so nothing goes wrong.

            • George Layton

              Theo, I believe that part of the confusion here is that some of the ideas you are expressing are not your ideas. They are hubbards ideas. I believe those ideas are what the negative comments are pointed at. Not at you. That is my take on it anyway. I can only speak for myself.

            • Theo Sismanides

              It’s a good point George. And because they are Hubbard’s does this justify all foul language by some towards me? Why not have some DisQuss, as I like to say, meaning some civilised Discourse on those ideas? Why I believe they stand for something? And why others believe they are not. This would be much better.
              +

          • Theo Sismanides

            I thought I answered that. I can’t find my posting here now. i said NO, I don’t feel superior. Nor inferior though as some might wanna treat me. So, it all comes down to manners and ability to communicate even with people who don’t have the same viewpoint like you.

        • Nevermore

          See, Theo, that’s on a par with Christians who offer to pray for me so that I will ‘see the light’. I’m a Pagan, and I see by my own light. I don’t need theirs. To say or insinuate otherwise is rude, condescending and can seem outright hostile.

          • Theo Sismanides

            See, Nevermore, I don’t pray for you, I don’t either wanna think anything good about you if you feel like it. We can be enemies. Fine with me. Like with some others here who don’t know how to keep their tongue tight when they know too little about a subject.

            The problem with this blog is that it deals with something that happens to be my philosophy, and it deals with it on a strictly critical basis. Well, then I step in whenever I want and disrupt their actions ’cause that’s MY home. It’s not theirs. They are just critics and spectators whereas I fought for their fellow man to understand. So… that’s about it. So, who’s hostile to who in the first place Nevermore?

            • ThetaBara

              I believe you are mistaken. We are indeed seeking the truth (the ACTUAL truth) here. If there was any benefit to this stuff, someone ought to be able to demonstrate that. Instead all we get is vagueness and excuses. If it’s so great, PROVE it!
              Where are the “Clears?”
              WHY DO THEY STILL NEED GLASSES?

            • Theo Sismanides

              ThetaBara (well the Bara throws me off a bit but ok, I will try to stay focused),

              First of all one cannot prove anything on a web page. Any proof will come for you when you deal with something earnestly and in depth.

              As to Clears or wearing glasses. Look, if you had studied the writings of Hubbard to the extent that I have, which I doubt because of your question even, you would understand that Hubbard, yes, indeed, sometimes exaggerated or maybe he would be able to attain such results but no others. Still I think that he sometimes exaggerated. However, there are cases where eye vision betters from auditing or even from a cognition in a session. Still, since we are all in bodies and those bodies go bad as they get older, it’s not that Clears will avoid that phenomena: the phenomena of a body getting older. Hubbard spoke about a Clear Cannibal. Now matter how Clear he is, because of his educational level, he remains a Cannibal. So it is with bodies. No matter how educated and processed a thetan is, a body IS a body. We are not creating a race of Super Men. We are creating some better people, bettering their IQ, their communication skills no matter what Jeff said above, bettering many things in them. But death and getting older as bodies are, I am afraid, unavoidable. A thetan does not need to die and does NOT die. But how do you differentiate? Well, that’s all a modern philosophy should do. Get people to differentiate and see who they really are, which definitely is NOT the body.

            • i-Betty

              Thank you, Theo. I disagree with almost everything you are saying (I am impressed that you are able to recognise that Hubbard was capable of exaggeration, however – this shows me you’re not a blind follower and you have a mind of your own), but you have answered ThetaBara’s question courteously and I was much more interested in what you had to say as a result.

            • Robert Eckert

              Sometimes he exaggerated, and sometimes he fabricated when there was not the slightest core of fact.

            • Poison Ivy

              A lot of times he fabricated. And if you read the Affirmations, he was well aware of it, too.

            • GlibWog

              but most of the time he LIED

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Daniel Dennett to the courtesy phone please!

            • DMSTCC

              “We are creating some better people, bettering their IQ, their communication skills no matter what Jeff said above, bettering many things in them.”

              You have proof of this, right? You can present a person that was probably at a lower level IQ and within a time of Hubtard pseudo therapy has been tested at a higher IQ? Prove it. or STFU</B?

            • Poison Ivy

              Hubbard never proved this. Perhaps Theo can.

            • Theo Sismanides

              At least you are more polite. How can one prove something on a web page. You guys have to ask and see for yourselves. I am not here to prove ANYTHING, NADA, I am just passing my time, being polite to some who are polite to me and killing some ants here and there who dare just ask for proof all the time instead of doing something themselves to find out about what they critiquing.

            • Theo Sismanides

              I don’t have to prove anything, especially to STFU guys, like you. You don’t prove anything either, just your background the way you talk.

            • ThetaBara

              If you are asserting that there is value in scientology or LRH and his dubious tech, then the burden of proof is in fact on you. Otherwise it’s just talk. Why come here and try to snow us? You know we’re not exactly likely to change our minds about this, especially without a shred of proof.

            • ThetaBara

              So, you are saying that Clears are not actually “at cause” over MEST, because of aging? That isn’t at all what LRH said.
              You are definitely saying that Hubbard exaggerated, or that “maybe he would be able to attain such results but no others” which is NOT the same as the “tech” working 100%, all of the time.
              You seem like a good guy and I feel a bit bad arguing with you. I don’t think I’m only my body, either. But I also do not think that proves any of the rest of this, nor that there is anything good in following someone whose claims are never proven, and who you yourself admit was not completely honest.

            • Poison Ivy

              Again, we’re talking faith, not fact. I won’t challenge anyone’s faith unless it purposefully is harming someone. But Scientologists in general continually confuse faith with fact, as Hubbard intended them to, by his claims of infallibility and the scientific subterfuge under which he hid is mind-control ‘tech’.

            • Eivol Ekdal

              “However, there are cases where eye vision betters from auditing or even from a cognition in a session. “….my BS meter says…
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I
              Care to offer an example? I know you cannot “prove anything on a web page” but I would like to hear of any examples.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              SOMETIMES EXAGGERATED? HA! Understatement of the century. Well, at least you’re getting closer to the truth. Keep looking, maybe you will find it some day.

            • i-Betty

              We would not come to your ‘home’ and be hostile. We might invite ourselves in and attempt an honest and open debate, but it is your home and we would not overstep the mark or outstay our welcome.

              Do you see what I’m saying?

            • Nevermore

              No, Theo, this is OUR home, the home of critics of your philosophy, and especially of some people who have suffered badly at the hands of proponents of that philosophy. You are of course welcome to come in and put your views across, as is anyone. But it should be done civilly. I think I have been civil to you, yet here you are, offering to be my enemy. That, to me, is as good a summing up of Scientology as I have ever seen. And it stinks too much of my father’s ‘my way or the highway’ attitude to me. So, goodbye and may your god or equivalent go with you.

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Is see the attack comm is still strong with this one.

    • Captain Howdy

      The “able to communicate to anyone on any subject at any time” bit always makes me laugh. Go up to any long time or raised in scientology clam and ask them a question about history, science or the arts and their response will be “WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES?” .

      I’ll bet there are people in the Sea Org who don’t even know who the president is.

    • pronoia

      Great comment. Of course, it helps that out here in the wog world, we tend to speak regular English (or any other native language) rather than Hubbardese, which as far as I am concerned is unintelligible.

    • Robert Eckert

      Scientologists communicating:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFIDT0Womng

    • Theo Sismanides

      Jeff, I hear you! And you are partly right! Those inside are, more and more everyday, made into robots. What communication skills are we talking about?

      But there is another aspect to this. There are some people who have gone, like you and me, and who care to mingle with the world without a Senior always in their back. So, what about them? Are they robots, too? Some say and keep saying “oh yes, I am a Scientologist and to hell with the church and all the BS I have gotten in there. I just want to practice what I learned”.

      So, IMHO we should keep those folks in mind, too. The very bad example of the church makes the whole subject of Thetans very unpalatable and distasteful. Already for me this is tooooo bad… It’s like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. All I care is that people can start differentiating.

      There are Indie Scientologists now. Those are a different breed of cat. At least they stood up and said “No”. That’s not a little thing so these folks here should know the difference, don’t yah think?

      • Jefferson Hawkins

        Sure, exes and Indies are freer to communicate outside the Church. Not really my point. My point is that Scientologists as a group — Indies included — do not demonstrate vastly superior communication skills compared to non-Scientologists. Doesn’t mean they are bad people, most are very good people. But they simply don’t have better communication skills than their non-Scientologist counterparts. Not that I’ve ever observed.

        • Nevermore

          I think the main barrier to communication between the two groups is the Scientologists’ reliance on the organisation’s ‘lingo’. I used to train people to use computers. I had to do that in layman’s terms, not using the specialist terms another analyst would have used. Scientologists don’t seem to be able to make that adjustment, which makes attempts at communication a bit problematic

          • Theo Sismanides

            Yes, true. Please define the “two groups”. I used to be a lawyer (studied in a greek university, alas) and so I was not so analytical. Did theory mostly. I see what you are saying. This is one situation, maybe some people here have a lot of misunderstood words as we call them and react. Thanks for that. I am trying to use as much plain english and “french” it looks like in some occasions where people are not that analytical as you. So think of this too, my dear Nevermore. How much can a human analyse things? And how much can he absorb? Not as fast as a computer which is programmed that way of course.

            • Nevermore

              By ‘two groups’, I mean ‘Scientologists’ and ‘non-Scientologists’. You have a language all of your own, full of abbreviations and allocating meanings to words that are not used by the general population. While that can foster a sense of ‘community’ or ‘belonging’ in those who understand them, it alienates everyone else. It also hinders communication of what Scientology believes to those outside the organisation. Different humans ‘absorb’ at different rates, and to different depths. For example, I have studied Egyptology for around 40 years. It interests me, and so I find it easy to take information on it into my memory, and keep it there. But I have always hated mathematics with a passion, so I barely learned the basics, and forgot most of those – because it bored me. Worse, it confused me, and that’s a big barrier to learning/absorbing knowledge.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Nevermore, understanding words is based on understanding their meanings. If the meaning is not known in the fullest sense of the word known, then one gets Misunderstood words as we call them. Too many Scientologists out of boredom, or to make some show or from carelessness or for reasons they know best use Scientologese and terms from Scientology which are not known to people. That creates havoc, you are right. I don’t know for example if you knew what a Thetan is and what it means. I think I explained it earlier but I don’t know if you got it. I hope you did. It’s another word for spirit, coming from the greek letter Theta.

              However, you will find that some people tend to deny anything they are told and reject it. They don’t wanna hear about it. Now, when it comes to the subject of spirituality and religions and such stuff you can imagine….. it’s worse than mathematics. People become fanatics for some reason. It’s true they have some very solid data there that if you shake they don’t feel good. Christ, Hubbard, Mohamed, Catholic Church, Church of Scientology… you name it…. They become furious if you attack those symbols, in essence.

              So, that might be another reason apart from the bad use of terminology and the inability of those who are not in the know to grasp the meaning of special words.

            • Captain Howdy

              Theo, I own a sci/di tech dictionary and have like 5 different Scientology glossaries bookmarked. Most folks who comment here have a pretty good knowledge of Hubbardese, We just don’t like it when scientologists us sci speak, because we’re not scientologists and we’re trying to discourage your use of your sub-culture lingo.

            • GlibWog

              Seriously.. Who here wouldn’t know what a Thetan is? Talk about condescending. Wow.

            • Anonymookme

              The Sciloon terms you use mean absolutely nothing in the real world. You guys have your silli, super secret code language that only means something to other members of your Super Secret Loon Club.
              Who gives a rats ass what a “thetan” is ? It means nothing.

            • Theo Sismanides

              if you discuss Scientology, find out at least some basic things about the subject you criticise. Otherwise you seem to be the stupid guy. Criticising a film as bad and you didn’t even get who the actors were.

            • Anonymookme

              I don’t need to put my hand in a pan of boiling water to know that it’s hot and it’s going to hurt like hell.
              You already know that LRH and his “tech” is a steaming pile of horse crap, but you jump in with both feet.
              Who’s the “stupid” guy?

            • joan nieman

              It means nothing, it is nothing.

            • Robert Eckert

              The Greek letter “theta” of course never had anything whatsoever to do with “spirit”; Hubbard could have chosen any random letter or word from Greek or any other language.

            • Bella Legosi

              “Science should not have ‘ology’ precedeing it. Thats why ‘$cientology’ is so laughable.” That is what my boyfriend says when I have brought Co$ up in discussion. That is his opinion, of course! I wuv my boyfriend; he’s got brains and rough around the edges in just the right ways! I am surprised that Hub didnt pull “gnosis” out, but “$ciengnosis” sounds too much like a mental disease!

              HA *light bulb” $cientologists arent “kool aid” drinkers! They just suffer from science fiction writer induced “$¢iengnosis”

              🙂

            • joan nieman

              It seems so extremely ignorant to pull words from other languages and change their meanings altogether. Had he know inspiration to make up his own words? And why would any person try to do that? especially a so-called writer!

            • Nevermore

              Well, Theo, what gets me furious is people being used as slave labour, families being destroyed, and ex-members being ‘fair gamed’ to the point that their lives don’t seem worth living any more, and the organisation doing the fair gaming then describes itself as containing the most moral people on the planet. If those are morals, I’m all for immorality!

            • Theo Sismanides

              Nevermore, what didn’t you get? I am not part of that church. I am an Independent Scientologist and this is why I left, too. Scientology was and is an applied philosophy and is not needed to have all those things. One can apply it in a very light way.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Theo, I have a few serious “indies” questions for you.
              How are the indies going to recruit new indie Scientologists?
              Are you guys still trying to “Clear” the planet? Or has that fallen by the wayside so you folks can work on your own cases?
              How does KSW work from the indie perspective? What do you all hope to achieve and how are you going to work together to achieve it?

              To this particular outsider looking in….I don’t see the indies even talking about Scientology in a way that is supposed to help the planet or mankind, or to restore “sanity” as you all define it….all I hear you guys talk about its what you are personally getting out of being indies.
              So help me understand your agenda.

            • Theo Sismanides

              Oh, you girl… you wanna know all the inside information! The important stuff….

              Well, actually I guess you are right. Indies don’t talk on a planetary scale anymore. Scattered all around the planet and thinking most of them of their own cases and unable to extend some actual and real communication lines with the world, they just move on as themselves helping also those near them.

              After Marty Rathbun killed it all, whereas he started and even coined the word INDIE, a lot of people lost hope that someone could move ahead and spearhead the whole movement. Now, there are various groups operating in various places but there is no interconnection between them.

              To my big dismay there is not much on the horizon. I want to do something about it so you are hitting a nail in the head here. But that takes hours of dedicated work and I hate to work alone…. lol… (maybe that will change in a while… I wish it does, working with myself…wow…). So, I hope I told you a few things. In essence it;s like a 1927 film that I saw about Napoleon, a re-issue by Francis Ford Coppola, where it shows the whole revolution of France going down but Napoleon saves the day. I hate to think Miscavige saves the day because he doesn’t.

              Indies need a leader in other words. Some say they don’t but I think a good leader could do good things towards the expansion of the movement.

            • i-Betty

              Theo, this is a very interesting perspective. I was hoping you would answer Bury’s question, thank you.

              It must be very difficult watching your group fracture, like loose threads blowing in the wind. It’s human nature to wish to find a way back to a time of security when it seemed everyone was pulling in the same direction.

              I wish you nothing but the best in your quest for future happiness.

              🙂

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              “Indies need a leader in other words. Some say they don’t but I think a good leader could do good things towards the expansion of the movement.”
              ^^^
              Hilarious!!!!
              You know what, Theo, I tried to tell you all that a year ago when everyone (the Indies) were still on Marty’s blog.
              I was told by several Indies at that time that you all did not need a leader and that was not what you folks were about.
              In fact, I made a reference to not having a leader is being like a three legged chair.
              I could give you some of the names of the Indies who were the first ones to jump on the “we don’t need no stinking leader” bandwagon but I think you already have an idea of who they are.
              And Marty was the least of your problems.
              You guys better work on your knowingness…or at least take some management classes.

            • ze moo

              One of the signs of the coming clampocolipse is the is the splintering of corporate CO$ into more independent groups. It is difficult for these indies to get together because corporate CO$ will always harass and dead agent any group they think is making inroads into the general clam membership. I think most indies can deal with the copyright problems, after all they already bought the books. Organizing all the indies into an international group will difficult, der kliene führer will spend any money to prevent that from happening.

            • Mark

              Clampocolypse!

            • aquaclara

              Clampocalypse! It’s coming!

            • joan nieman

              Oh! It is! It is!

            • i-Betty

              .

            • Theo Sismanides

              Hey i-Betty, that’s the best acknowledgment I got here today. Thank you so much.

        • Theo Sismanides

          ok, Jeff, I hear you! I get some very bad acks here, though! How is that?

          • Eivol Ekdal

            we call them….. down votes!
            😉

      • DMSTCC

        Sorry Theo, but IMHO, you are still a Ronbot. Hubtard was a con man and nothing more. He got your money and your mind. Hope you are doing well outside of the {church} and also hope you are willing to read more.

        http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2000-03-11.html

        • Theo Sismanides

          yes Sir, Ronbot here… affirmative, will do. Ok Sir… whatever… you are cool.. you are the Master. What’s DMSTCC by the way? Ronbot has an MU…! Sorry, Sir. Please explain yourself as best as you can. End of comm.

          P.S Oh, don’t use the H Sir… IMO not H! You Sir using the word humble? You… Humble? You Sir who know it all? Pls next time just YOUR OPINION which is actually what you said and leave outside the Humble stuff. Got it?

          • DMSTCC

            fixed the H

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            You do the same damn thing when people give their opinion in opposition to your own. Suck it dude! ON Hollywood Blvd with DM.

      • GlibWog

        If Hubbard and all his Bull Shit is the Baby in this Bathwater I would be more than happy to throw the “Baby Away.”
        ( In a heartbeat! )

        • GlibWog

          ( I just up arrowed my own POST!)

          • Theo Sismanides

            I told you, you seem to be a great guy!

            • GlibWog

              I am a great person. I am a woman hear me roar. I am coming from a very different point of view apparently than you. All Voices Are welcome. I was just stating I am not accepting of anything LRH.

              He destroyed too many lives for me to talk pleasant about him. This is MY truth.

            • i-Betty

              She is!

            • Theo Sismanides

              Oh God… sorry… then you seem to be a great woman, already! Thanks for the correction.

          • i-Betty

            I literally love you! 😀

            • GlibWog

              Smooches xoxo BBF tee hee

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            I gave you an UP because YOU gave you an UP.

            • GlibWog

              Well L Wrong You have excellent taste my dear! ..

          • joan nieman

            and an up from me!

        • Theo Sismanides

          yeah right, why don’t you throw some more babies away. I think it suits you. People here just don’t have manners. They utter comments which are impolite. It’s our first acquaintance and this is what you have to say even though you dislike Hubbard.

          WELL, I AM NOT HUBBARD, I AM THEO!! HELLO?

          • GlibWog

            Hello Theo I’m Glib.. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the Bunker.

      • Grant C

        I agree an Indie is in a different category than a corporate Scientologist.

        But I can’t accept that the subject of Thetans would be “tasteful” if things were otherwise, simply because Hubbard was Source, and Hubbard is what is so distasteful.

        • Theo Sismanides

          So, what about Spirits. Let’s talk about Spirits and not… Thetans… ok… (god… why do we have to get stuck on words). Talking about spirits, do you believe people are spiritual beings or are they something else and what that would be?

          • Grant C

            I like what you did there, Theo! Thanks.

            Personally, I don’t know what to think, Theo. There seems to be a lot of neural restructuring in people who heavily practice meditation or prayer, based on medical imaging like functional MRI and PET, etc. So what an individual feels, while their neuroanatomy is being restructured due to “mystical practices” is hard to say.

            I suspect when people have unusual “mystical” experiences, they are most likely explainable by neural path changes, but how the individual tries to communicate those feeling to others, may very likely employ terms like sprit or god.

            • Eivol Ekdal

              yeah .. what Grant said, and so forth.

            • joan nieman

              and then some.

    • Doug Parent

      Jeff, I respect your point of view and no doubt we have many friends in common. I differ however in that in Scientology I learned the value and the role an acknowledgment plays in the process of good clear communication. I also learned how to settle down and listen to someone. I also learned that really understanding someone is key to resolving differences. All these things can be learned and observed in life. But in Scientology these things are packaged up nicely in the communications course and the drills were helpful FOR ME. And (disclaimer) “I’m not saying they would be helpful to anyone on this blog or anyone they know nor do I endorse the Church of Scientology or any of it’s various front groups, nor do I think L Ron Hubbard could fly or make horses disappear”.

      • i-Betty

        Heehee 😀

        I’m starting to like you, Doug!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Yeah, he got me at disappearing horses. Lol.

        • GlibWog

          After Theo ..Doug is my dream boat

      • Missionary Kid

        A point of information: All of those points and more were a part of an introductory sales associate course I took in the 60s when I went to work for a large corporation. It was a part of my every salesman’s training, and I’m sure the people who devised it had nothing to do with $cientology.

        The emphasis was on communication for sales.

        There was nothing special about what you learned. Unfortunately, what came with it were redefinition of words and terms that guarantee that misunderstanding takes place

      • Poison Ivy

        I’m certain that many people – like you – learn these skills in Scientology courses. In fact, that’s what people seem to say more often that not – that the COMM courses really helped them.

        I guess the question is, can you stop there? They don’t want you to.

        I learned and honed the same skills in various other ways – from my parents, from debate class in high school, from acting classes, from being thrown into the snakepit of the entertainment industry at a very young age, and in therapy. Only one of those cost me money. And (with the exception of the entertainment industry), there was no mind control involved.

        Also, I have to take a little bit ot exception at the statement “I learned that really understanding someone is the key to resolving differences.” I’m glad, Doug, that you came away with that understanding – which is why you can be such a valuable addition to this blog. I don’t think that the majority of Scientologists took that same lesson away ( case in point – Theo ). And that life lesson – which I agree with heartily – is not in line with the way Scientology treats its own members who have differences (case in point – Leah Remini) …or Hubbard’s own statement about his perceived enemies: “Always attack, never defend.”

      • Eivol Ekdal

        I guess I was lucky, my parents and school teachers taught me all that.

        • Grant C

          LOL !!

          Or should I say ack ack!

          • noseinabk

            Quick, someone check on Grant. I think he is choking!

      • Grant C

        One thing I have learned is that really understanding someone and resolving differences, is something that Scientologists are really, really bad at.

      • dbloch7986

        Actually at some point in life you learn to respect the fact that some people are good listeners and some are not. I have a lot of friends that are either/or. I take no issue with someone who can’t listen for a long period of time. I have my moments where it seems like I have ADD. You just have to learn how to be:

        CLEAR. CONCISE. DIRECT.

        That’s what my high school English teacher always taught us.

        TRs assume that everyone communicates the same. Study tech assumes that everyone learns the same. Scientology as a whole assumes that everyone is the same.

        None of that is true,

        Another frustrating thing is when someone is explaining to you something that you already know. Or when they are trying to explain, but you’ve figured it out halfway through their explanation because they are a slow talker.

        • Grant C

          “Scientology as a whole assumes that everyone is the same.”

          This is a very good point.

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Yes it is! Like lemmings.

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      Crippled indeed is the Scientologist’s communication. Great description. Being a Scientologist more than 20 years ago, I couldn’t help but feel like I was in a communist country. My parents escaped a well-known communist regime. They told me stories about how they would have to be careful what they said and how they’re lives were under total control. The irony was that I experienced the exact same thing, but worse because it happened in the land of the free, The United States of America.

      • Theo Sismanides

        I ack you on that. Go find out how many people here know about acknowledgments. Oh how soon do we forget!!!

        • InTheNameOfXenu

          That gives me flashbacks Leo. ‘Don’t give me C.I.’ was another popular phrase from The H.A.S. He accused me of being out-ethics when I wanted to leave staff. Well, he left before I did and the poor schmuck died of smoke inhalation from a fire in an apartment that he shared. His room-mate feel asleep smoking after a night of drinking. What a wasted life. If had gone back home to his parents, he would be alive today.

          • i-Betty

            Poor guy, that’s so sad 🙁

          • Theo Sismanides

            I am just sorry for the guy! Hope he picked up another body and knew better this time.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, that was his one and only precious life, and he wasted it.

            • i-Betty

              🙁

            • InTheNameOfXenu

              Theo, it ceases to amaze me how Scientologists both Corporate or Indie regard life in such a cavalier manner. ‘Dropping a body’ or ‘Picking up a body’ is loaded cult language that de-humanizes a person’s singular life as nothing but a passing thing. Whether one believes in reincarnation or not, the life we are currently living is the most precious and most important thing. It doesn’t matter who you ‘were’ in another life or who’ll you ‘be’. Life is in the here and now. Hubbard manipulated many people by implanting them with the concept that we live countless lives and that servitude to his totalitarian movement is the only worthy thing a person can do. Scientology did wonders for Hubbard. He died alone, insane, and by his own admission to ‘Sarge’…a failure.

            • Poison Ivy

              There may be a million other lives after this one. There may be nothingness. Since we have no proof of either, let us value what we do have, which is this one.

            • InTheNameOfXenu

              Amen.

            • GlibWog

              Amen

            • cicely neville

              Amen

            • dbloch7986

              This is VERY TRUE. Scientologists do not value their lives or anyone else’s. It is very sad. Even their own code says that their integrity is more important than their immediate life.

              Even religions that believe in reincarnation have rules against suicide and view each life as a VERY important step up the rung to enlightenment or salvation.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Agree… very well said!

            • GlibWog

              Everyone is being very nice to you Theo.. I have really been trying.. I welcomed you and all.. but
              Personally I think you are acting like an Asshole. OK Carry On

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              For me, reading Theo’s comments are like reading Marty’s blog. AAAAck! Yeah, I’m a meanie.

            • Mark

              He’d bring out the worst in anyone. Why, he even had me being very rude to him in French after he swore at Nottrue!

            • joan nieman

              And what Glibby says, Glibby means. So listen up Theo!!

            • GlibWog

              Yeah.. So there!

            • Lark Smith

              Wow, this was a crappy attempt at empathy Theo. If it was not an attempt to offer compassion it was simply an uncaring a rude comment.

            • Theo Sismanides

              And why is that, mister? How can you tell? It’s the “hope he picked up another body” that hit nerve or what?

            • EnthralledObserver

              Heh… well, just thinking… is there some doubt that he’ll work out how to, or be able to ‘pick up another body’? I thought it was a given, like, part of the design of the trap, you know. And I thought the EP (end product) of Scientology was ‘not’ to need to pick up a body, because you are ‘free-er’ that way??? Enlighten me, Theo, please…?

            • Theo Sismanides

              that’s an “end product”, actually EP stands for End Phenomena, so you know. but an end product is not always easy to get. The problem here for thetans I guess is that they can’t leave this game, called life. Believe me, some may want to do that. But, hey, that’s the problem now. They can’t.

              In any case any mass (body or whatever other materials) is better than no mass for a thetan. I don’t know what would happen to a thetan who would really be (and I am not joking now) really high up on the scale. There have been saints and Enlightened men and women who were wise enough. I don’t know at that level what happens.

              But it’s true that the breaking of the endless cycle of birth and death was/is the target for many.

            • EnthralledObserver

              EP = End Phenomena – of course, sorry, you are right, I should have checked that. Same meaning though, I suppose.
              Anyway, my point in asking was that if breaking out of the cycle is the EP, but a Thetan can’t break out without Scientology, then why would you ‘hope he picks up a new body’? It kind of renders that sentiment pointless if the Thetan has no choice, right? And if the Thetan did have a choice, then why wish away the EP from him?
              And I assume you believe LRon is one of those saints who was wise enough to discard his body and not pick up a new one… so what is he now up to? If the EP is to get there, then surely you know what you are aiming for? Otherwise, how do you know it is desirable/safe?
              I don’t know, Theo, I’m seeing quite a few plot-holes in old LRonny’s yarns…
              Explain for me why Xenu needed to solve a population problem at all when thetans didn’t need a body and would therefore take up no ‘space’? – as another such example…

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok… I get you. per what I have read (and this still needs to be confirmed to me as I don’t have personal recall of this) one cannot go exterior and stay there steadily unless he has some abilities which are much higher.

              All this might cause new arguments and disagreements but I am telling you what I have read.

              So if one leaves the body with a sudden death and without his/her will or reasons of really old age, you can understand that this person will have attention on that life time and on top of that (per what I have read again from Hubbard, another big “fantasy” chapter of Scientology for some who would not accept it) after death beings are captured and implanted (memory erased and sent back to Earth to inhabit a new body). That’s called Implant.

              And this is inevitable per the theories of my philosophy and makes it impossible for a thetan to escape this game. Now, this is a theory of course and it has to do with the Scientology view of what is there after life.

              On Hubbard where is he, does he has a body etc. or on Xenu… I don’t have any clue so what do you want me to say? All I can say is that Hubbard was not a “saint” per se, yes he was a man who could observe and be focused on what he had to do, and created quite some effects as we are still talking about him and people will be talking about him more and more as the years go by. There is nothing much from others anyway, on a practical level, to help people with their everyday lives and problems and other higher concepts in regards to the spiritual side of Man. Hubbard at least created a system which, despite all the fury of those who want to enslave Mankind, still keeps going.

        • dbloch7986

          Acknowledgements are overrated in Scientology. The way that Scientologists are trained to acknowledge people is one of the primary things that makes them so goddamn weird to everyone.

          Not Normal:

          A: “How are you today?”
          B: “Okay, I guess.”
          A: “Okay. What do you mean?”
          B: “I had a fight with my girlfriend.”
          A: “I understand. Do you want to talk about it?”
          B: “No.”
          A: “Okay.”

          Normal:

          A: How are ya?
          B: Okay i guess.
          A: Why i guess?
          B: I had a fight with my girlfriend
          A: That sucks. Wanna go get a drink?
          B: Yeah

          • Poison Ivy

            I <3 Derek.

            • i-Betty

              I cake Derek. That’s a lot of love 🙂

            • Poison Ivy

              Dammit Betty! Now you have me craving cake!!!!!!!!! 😉

          • Theo Sismanides

            Hahaha…. is that all you could think of? Ooohh… Dereeeek!

          • InTheNameOfXenu

            Hahahahaha! Now that’s funny!

        • Grant C

          Consider your ack acked

          • InTheNameOfXenu

            Awww, snap!

          • cicely neville

            “ack”? Is this sci talk? Am i just ignorant of current jargon? Or is it hairballs?

            • Gerard Plourde

              It means “I acknowledge (or understand). Hubbard’s ripoff of Heinlein’s term “grok” from “Stranger in a Strange Land”.

            • cicely neville

              Thanks, GP

            • Once_Born

              Really?

              It’s one of personal interests how much Hubbard ripped off from Heinlein both in content (e.g. ‘hatting’ and ‘Homo Novis’) and in style.

              One day, I will make a list…

          • Nevermore

            Isn’t that the term for anti-aircraft fire? My dad was in the Artillery, and that’s what he calls it – well, ack ack, close enough!

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      Mr. Hawkins seems to think that “communication” as defined by the Church of Scientology means that we in OSA should keep Church parishioners busy posting comments on Scientology hater blogs in order to dominate these hater blogs by the sheer force and clarity of Scientology’s superior and world class communication skills.

      What Hawkins suggests here is an A=A=A because, factually and more to the point, assigning our parishioners to post on hater blogs does nothing but put Dev-T on their lines when COB’s priority is to have them use their TR’s and comm skills to dissem and thereby boom the Ideal Orgs with new Scientologists.

      Our stat is “new bodies in the shop” and not “posting on dead-in-the-head wog hater blogs.”

      Understood from this perspective, our goal in Scientology is not to address or handle the collective insanity generated by all of the of insane beings who post on hater boards, this because Scientology neither treats the insane nor does it want the insane as members.

      Our goal is to Clear the Planet.

      Our goal is not to handle the Internet.

      Frankly speaking, the Internet it is just another fad that will soon go out of style. Like hula hoops, pet rocks, or the music of the Bee Gees, the current faddish interest in the the Internet will soon go away and be replaced by the more sober reality that the Reactive Mind needs to be handled and that only Scientology processing can handle it.

      Then again, it logically follows from this deduction that, and more critically, all wog hater boards are, by definition, expressions of the R6 Bank. and there is no way to communicate to and handle this savage composite of laid in implants, this “Bedrock of Aberration” , except by picking up the cans.

      Please pick up the cans.

      This is the session.

      • Mark

        I picked up the cans, but one was half-full of stale catfood, and someone had used the other one as a latrine…

        • i-Betty

          Latrine 😛

      • Jgg2012

        Show us a perfect clear.

        • Poison Ivy

          OTVIIIisGrrrr8! is Clear. I’m sure of it!
          And he promised me a Burlwood Pen!

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Poison Ivy, per our agreement you get a free burlwood pen when you sign your billion year Sea Org contract. You can even have one of the coveted lower bunks in the women’s dormitory.

            • i-Betty

              You can’t say fairer than that, Ivy!

      • Observer

        “…COB RTC David Miscavige made it emphatically clear to all Scientologists that, ‘The Internet it is just another fad that will soon go out of style. Like hula hoops, pet rocks, or the music of the Bee Gees…'”

        COB is just as prescient as one of my sisters who, in 1985 and bearing an irrational and almost superstitious fear of computers (the subject had come up because I had recently begun using one at work), in the middle of a conversation literally stamped her foot and shrieked “COMPUTERS ARE JUST A … FAD!” and stormed out of the house, leaving the rest of us to stare after her in incredulity.

        • Poison Ivy

          Or my late Dad, bless him, who insisted as recently as 2011 that “rock and roll is just a fad!!”

          • i-Betty

            Oh, love him 🙂

            • Poison Ivy

              He was a pisser. I miss the old dude something fierce. 🙁

          • Captain Howdy

            He wasn’t all that wrong. Real rock’n’roll except in small local scenes is pretty much dead and has been since at least the late nineties. Looking at what’s popular now, Marilyn Manson doesn’t seem so bad. At least it rocked and pissed people off, which is what rock is meant to do.

            • Foxrenard

              “Real rock’n’roll except in small local scenes is pretty much dead and has been since at least the late nineties. Looking at what’s popular now, Marilyn Manson doesn’t seem so bad. At least it rocked and pissed people off, which is what rock is meant to do.”

              Yes, but all these are different forms of music, but music nevertheless. And music isn’t dead. Actually, it’s still here and since a very long time. Only styles of music are dying, but not music 🙂

          • Sandy

            My poor Dad. He spawned several liberal kids. My older sister protested Vietnam & ended up on the front page of the Mpls/SP paper! Luv U Daddy.

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          Talking about computers keyed in an electronic implant in your sister. Suggest she rush to Flag Land Base. We can help her destimulate from her incident.

      • i-Betty

        Wonderful! Better make the most of this internet lark while it’s still fashionable.

      • q-bird

        Oh crap Mr. Great – Must I?! Do I HAVE TO?!! Are you positive that this is the only way?!!!

    • DavidaRochelle

      Here’s another Craigslist Las Vegas ad, under the Community section. I can only post a warning ad every other day, per CL rules. Can anyone else help out?

      • i-Betty

        There are several of them along these lines:

        DIVORCED AND DEPRESSED? (Vegas)+-
        © craigslist – Map data © OpenStreetMap
        DIVORCED AND DEPRESSED?
        Are you still suffering from a break-up? Do you find it hard to get over the betrayal? Is life not as meaningful as it used to be? Come to our group. We’ll help you deal with the pain you are in. Do you find yourself not as active as before? Do you feel like you have lost a part of yourself since the divorce? Has your self-confidence taken a hit due to the failure of the relationship? Come to our group. We provide counseling, classes, and books which will help you. You CAN find yourself and regain your happiness. Your life is not over, and it will get better, we will make sure of that. Please call (702) 731-1500 and find out more. Ask for Matt. You can also go to scientology.org

        How can I help, David?

        • DavidaRochelle

          Yesterday I posted an ad on CL Vegas, warning others that a similar ad was a Scieno scam. Per CL rules, you can’t post every single day. Perhaps you and others could place similar warning ads to naive readers that these ads are fraudulent. It is 100% free to post ads in the Community section.

          • i-Betty

            Thanks, Davida 🙂

      • Anandamide

        Thank you for this! I am in the Twin Cities (MN) and just posted a “beware the cult of scientology” bit. There were a ton of ads from the cos about relationship counseling in the craigslist community-general section. Twits.

        • Sandy

          Anandamide – I am in the Twin Cities too, and had NO idea! Tell me where & I will help …

          • Anandamide

            Hi neighbour! Just go to the Mpls craigslist page, then community, then the general category. I saw a lot of ads soliciting people with relationship troubles. My post should be there . I avoid St. Paul since they moved in.

    • Noni Mause

      Thanks Jefferson, I always find your comments incredibly helpful. Your comparison of wog vs Co$ communication styles is telling. Scientologists routinely presented as smug and/or strident in interviews – very off putting.

    • dbloch7986

      Scientology “communication” techniques teach you to communicate in the confines of Scientology. Scientologists are not at all effective at communicating with the outside world. For example, Karin Bangzoompow keeps repeating the same tired and unproven statistics relating to the “growth” of Scientology.

      The outside world knows it’s a joke, we laugh at it, and yet she continues to say it. That’s TR4. Ignore the truth, and keep repeating yourself over and over until the other person believes it.

      Most Scientologists believe that when you are “coaching” another on the training drills that you are “teaching” them. In reality most of the the indoctrination happens as the “coach”. During the process of “coaching” the “student” on the routines you are also being taught–surreptitiously–how to properly respond to someone using that routine on you.

      That’s why it is so important that all Scientologists play both roles.

      • Poison Ivy

        “Karin Bangzoompow” *Love*!

    • Xique

      Jeff , you are correct. Come to think of it , I’d rarely had an engaging , or entertaining conversation with a Scientologist. I connected with a few , had a friendship or two , but overall , had very little meaningful communication with other members.
      As far as the execs and the mean wives on CNN, I found them to be extremely hard to listen to, not to mention , cold. Sorry, I realize one was your ex. They were awful communicators; rehearsed , yes, authentic, no.
      Since leaving I’m enjoying others and what they have to say so much more. I’m trying to find my own voice , and hope to let go of my shyness. I never wanted people to know I was involved in SCN, hence the shyness.
      Well anyway Jeff, I really enjoy your comments. You say it like it is, beautifully.

      • i-Betty

        Lots of love to you, Xique 🙂

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Scientologists are muzzled not to control what they say but what they Think they should say.

      You can’t speak your mind when its locked up in the ethics office.

      • Grant C

        Great post!

        I think Hubbard may have been envious of the world George Orwell created in his novel 1984.

      • joan nieman

        True that!

    • Lark Smith

      I agree with you completely Jeff. In reading blogs posted by CO$ members the posts are frequently abrasive and arrogant. They are either overly defensive or very aggressive. They can’t really speak to the facts because they lack basic information that the rest of the population can access. This makes any rational discussion almost impossible. They are limited following a script, attacking, or diverting discussions. In many ways it is like arguing with a frustrated child who has learned to tune you out or plugs there ears and yells “La La La La La I can’t hear you, I’m not listening to you”. It makes conversations unpleasant and very limited.

      • i-Betty

        “In reading blogs posted by CO$ members the posts are frequently abrasive and arrogant. They are either overly defensive or very aggressive.”

        And very, very sweary!

        • Poison Ivy

          “La La La La La I can’t hear you, I’m not listening to you”.

          A response honed in the TR’s.

        • GlibWog

          I thought you had a headache.. ( hahahaha) OOOH Nothin funny about a headache.. I’m glad you sucked it up darlin.

        • GlibWog

          This from a Woman who coined ” SnickerSnort! ” She oughta know!

          • i-Betty

            Heehee! 😀

    • Marc Headley

      Amen Jeff!

      I will go one further and say that maybe being in Scientology and then leaving makes one smarter and a better communicator! I have no problem talking about Scientology with people. I used to be okay with it before, but now i find that I can easily talk with anybody about it and anything else for that matter. When you are in scientology, you always have to second guess what will become of you after you say something. There is a a lot of significance placed on how and what you say and to whom. I think that “significance” really complicates the conversation and makes scientologists VERY limited on what they can and can’t say.

      We also have the great benefit of being treated so fantastically horribly for so many years, that pretty much anything in the real world is a walk in the park. If you can manage to produce efficiently without food, sleep, while being yelled at, berated and threatened with expulsion, imagine what you can do when left alone!

      I will also say that I have not met one single person in the “real world” that has been a 10th as overtly or covertly evil as some of the people I met or worked with in Scientology.

      • Gerard Plourde

        “I will also say that I have not met one single person in the “real world” that has been a 10th as overtly or covertly evil as some of the people I met or worked with in Scientology.”

        I’m sure that some exist out here in the “real world”. While Scientology has a high concentration of purely evil people it hasn’t cornered the market by any means.

        • Poison Ivy

          I’ve got one on the periphery of my life right now for you, Marc….you can have ’em if you want!

          But actually, knowing what y’all (exes) have been through makes me put my own dealings with People of the Lie in perspective. I’m not dealing with a system of evil run by a madman, just an isolated sociopath here and there. And I’ve got a great life & signifIcant other to go home to every night; no rice and beans and life without possibility of parole for me.

          You guys are inspirational. You, Claire and all of the exes speaking out, on the Bunker and elsewhere.

          • aquaclara

            You said it best, PI. I share your inspiration and too tired to think of any more to add to this. Thanks.

        • Grant C

          I would guess that the concentration of “naturally” evil people is probably the same in, or out of scientology. However, the concentration “created” evil people, (i.e., those that became that way because of their circumstances) is staggeringly high in the Cult.

          • dbloch7986

            As in all of them that haven’t left yet?

            • Grant C

              I was referring to the neurotic mindset that Hubbard creates in his worshippers, which seems to devalue human life. Breaking away from that must be a breath of fresh air for the soul.

            • dbloch7986

              It seems that way because it is that way. Scientologists do not value human life AT ALL. My dad implied that I should kill myself when I came out of the Sea Org.

            • Grant C

              That’s awful, I’m so sorry to hear that, Derek. That sure sounds like evil to me. And we have Hubbard to thank for that, in part. It doesn’t excuse inhuman behaviour, but we have seen how insidious the indoctrination process can be.

            • Studious Judious

              Derek I don’t know you personally, but I love you like a brother. I’m so happy that you were able to see past the lies and thought control. I’m so happy that you did NOT kill yourself. Your videos on youtube and your comments here are heartfelt, and show a raw emotion that is touching.

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        If savagely defending Mankind’s only hope of Salvation is evil then we in RTC plead guilty.

        • i-Betty

          Heehee 😀

        • InTheNameOfXenu

          It’s about friggin’ time.

        • Espiando

          Well, at least someone’s giving some kind of answer to “What are your crimes?”

        • GlibWog

          Well, DUH?

      • Grant C

        “We also have the great benefit of being treated so fantastically
        horribly for so many years, that pretty much anything in the real world
        is a walk in the park. If you can manage to produce efficiently without
        food, sleep, while being yelled at, berated and threatened with
        expulsion, imagine what you can do when left alone!”

        You could say the same thing about doing a residency program to become a physician. However, the latter has more tangible benefits.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Lol, Marc, nicely said….. significance plays a big role in all this. For the last 3 hours I have been communicating here and I am alive… lol. I guess some folks treat you good and decent here too and some don’t. So, I pick up my own level of communication depending on theirs. I am glad you and Claire give Tony O. some data, it’s always good to talk to people.

      • Doug Parent

        Often I have remind myself of how drastically different all of our experiences were in the cult. Marc and Jeff Hawkins were VERY close to the heat. I was a public and my best times where either at missions or at the Class 5 level. As soon as I saw time on the Freewinds or got onlines at Flag, thats when I REALLY started to smell and see the crazy. These guys have lived the pressure cooker, and it’s INSANE at the top or near it. The further away you get from Miscavige, and upper orgs, the more “real scientology” starts to appear as many of the old time veteran staff members in San Diego like Albert or Gary who knew how to treat people and teach Scientology. THOSE were the days when Scientology was fun. Those days are dead and the gestapo, IAS and the Sea Org 19 year olds have turned it into a freakin circus. Pardon my rant, but there were really GREAT times when intelligent and able people related to every person on a one to one basis. Scientology of the 70’s and part of the 80’s was about people helping and caring about other people. It wasent as much about the money as it was people getting trained up as auditors and co-auditing and making real life changing gains for people. The heart and soul left Scientology when Miscavige brought the desert in. All the good people were driven out. Don’t judge what Scientology ever was by what it is today.

        • Zana

          Thank you for the distinction. Another friend told me that as well.

          • Doug Parent

            Oh yeah it’s SO true. Those where days when seekers of knowledge artists rebels students of life business industry and intellectuals were all mixed in together and it was all an adventure. While the Sea Org influence and Hubbards more militaristic and extreme hard line writings were becoming more prevalent, you could see that there were still lot’s of people who hung in there despite all that because there was such a cool vibe going on on the spiritual side of things. And that spirit of enlightenment and expanded expression of self is what fuels the Indie movement today. The fact that Hubbard was wrong about the world imploding, or that we had to get “ethics in” on the planet and all the “impediments” to “clearing the planet” had to be ruthlessly swept out of the way, stands as an example of how Scientology as a subject strayed off course from it’s more spiritual humanitarian goals that was more evidenced in his writings from the 50’s. I think the Indie movement has come a long way in acknowledging that much of what was added in administratively and for the sake of “ethics” set the movement back more than it fortified it’s position. Hubbard wrote all that nonsense that created the problems, it wasen’t Miscavige.. When Indies finally sort out what aspects of Scientology that align with the most basic fundamental axioms and logics that are the underpinnings of the auditing technology, and agree to call a spade a spade, get off of “KSW” and reform the entire body of work to only include what works for the individual seeking enlightenment, without sacrificing human rights and the dignity of those who want to help the effort, then what you have left should be called something else. I agree in a large part with the direction Marty is going and his revelations about Scientology, and for anything worthwhile to move forward Scientology has to evolve.

            • Zana

              “And that spirit of enlightenment and expanded expression of self…” Beautiful. !!

        • Theo Sismanides

          Thanks Doug. I think it was the same for me. I was at ASHO and I had all the time to read and study many lectures at night at Lebanon Hall… the place we lived. I wouldn’t go to bed but kept on studying. There was a nice LA night breeze. I totally agree with the guys at high levels not having done the Real Scientology.

        • i-Betty

          We often hear about how old-school Scientologists found an incredible community spirit in the early days. If I’d been around then I would probably have been a hippy. We’re programmed to seek community. Peace and love, man. 🙂

          • Doug Parent

            thats far out baby.

      • Zenster

        No, it is not any skills you learned from Scientology, it is simply that there is nothing the “wog” world will ever throw at you that can ever resemble the mean-spirited “spy on your neighbor through knowledge reports” insanity that Scientology immerses you in

    • joan nieman

      Your reply Tony! I do know how to get to the most recent story but sometimes I miss a day or two and just like to blog something. Lol! Thank you for your concern, however, in a few more years I may need much more guidance!

  • Theo Sismanides

    I wanna thank Claire for putting in the time to write about all this and help Tony O. get closer to what Scientology is all about. Thanks Claire but remember, there is many more of us out here who can appreciate much more what you have to say. How are you kids? I have also two and here in Greece the shadows of suppression are falling down fast. i wish one day a Light Bringer would come in and be able to re-do what LRH did. Bring to the people of Earth some light. To the ones who can appreciate it and make some use of it. Keep it up, Claire. An ex-SO.

    • sugarplumfairy

      We missed you, Theo!

      I will join you in your wish for a light bringer.. But this time, can we make it a light bringer who isn’t out to make a fortune off the backs of the people he says he wants to help? A light bringer who’s mantra isn’t “make money, make more money, make others produce so as to make more money?” Someone who’s motto isn’t “the only way to control people is to lie to them?”

      lrh was a crook who stole all his best ideas..

      • George Layton

        I hear he stole that light he brought too.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lol..Diogenes probably lies in a ditch somewhere.. Lantern missing, gash on head..

          • Mark

            I’m back in my barrel, looking through my collection of mouldy old newspapers, thanks.

            • marti

              Mark, I bet your old newspapers are tart and zesty due to the high acidity. How long did they age?

            • Mark

              Years…

      • WildaBeast

        Apropos of nothing: “Lucifer” is derived from the Latin words for ‘light’ and ‘bearer’/’bringer’.
        Always thought that was funny.

    • Grant C

      Nice to have you back, Theo!! I hope you have an enjoyable experience, and I have a pointer. You would have a lot more fun, if you just left out that little part about how awesome you think LRH is. It would be wonderful! Think about it.

      • Theo Sismanides

        But that’s the best part I got Grant C! That creates all the waves, man! I am not gonna ruin the show here.

        • Sandy

          It’s almost 3 in the morning, Theo, you crazy Greek! Go to bed!

          • Theo Sismanides

            Sandy thanks , I just got in bed! I think I will quit. I am exhaaauuuusted!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Good Night Theo 😉

            • q-bird

              Time spent here has had its way with you again today, eh Theo?!
              You just killin’ time. Time just using you. Exhausting yes.
              At the end of your day however you may well say I tried… I did my best.

              “Every perfect picture has a mess or two
              Sometimes it’s me, sometimes it’s you, but that’s alright
              You surrender, you confess, you make a mess,

              you get undressed and call it a night..”

              ~ Patti Scialfa – Play It As It Lays

            • Theo Sismanides

              ok, have a good day or night… wherever you are! Thanks for the nice pic! really beautiful. Wonder who is the painter.

            • q-bird

              Maxfield Parrish

    • EnthralledObserver

      I know I’m coming in late, but I think what you mean to say, Theo, is that you wish a “Light Bringer” would come in and do what LRH ‘claimed’ to have done… ’cause he didn’t really do what you believe he did… HE LIED and cheated hundreds of thousands of people out of their hard earned cash to chase an unachievable dream – including you.
      My hope for you is that you stop dwelling over who you think you ‘might’ have been, and who you ‘might’ be in the future and make the absolute best of your life here and now, because I fear you take your {current} life too cheaply.
      If we are going to hedge our bets about who is right – Indies (Scienos) or Critics – then the odds are in my favour. If you’re right, then I’ll have another chance, however, if I’m right, then you have wasted half of your only shot already. Sorry, pal…

      • Theo Sismanides

        Can be. See what happens because the only objective measure in this universe is Time. So, as time rolls we’ll see. We happen to live in interesting times. Man is once again attempting to find truths beyond the material universe. You can see that all over the Internet and do not tell me this is not true, either. People want to know more about life and themselves and their inner side. That’s a progress though. So, it’s not just Scios or Indies or Critics. There are people who want to know more and that’s inherent in Man (I don’t want to use the word Thetan, lest some hear start attacking again). But Man is trying to understand now more than ever. Having conquered to a large degree the material universe and being maybe even unhappier than he used to be, he wonders how come and he wonders whether there is something that’s missing.

        So Scientology (not the church but the actual philosophy as laid out by Hubbard and practiced more freely and loosely by hundreds of Indies now, will be one path to be considered and walked by some to find out for themselves. Those who, for their own fixed ideas, don’t want to walk that path will never have a subjective reality about it so they can’t be talking about it either. Those who have or will walk that path will have a say in it. Let’s see.

        • i-Betty

          It’s interesting when you actually debate 🙂

          • Theo Sismanides

            I am not sure I fully got you. Anyway, it’s ok with some people, as they can keep their manners in. Some cannot and come across in a very rude way. I like to talk with people who are aware that manners is a great tool so that a discussion or even a debate can occur.

        • EnthralledObserver

          I’m happy to agree that Man (in general) is interested in trying to understand ‘more’, but I cannot agree on why. Maybe man just has more time on his hands to ponder, given all the helpful technology. It doesn’t mean there is an answer… just that there is a question. You say Man has conquered MEST, I suggest Man is just bored for the time being… he’ll get busy playing with MEST again soonish. 😉

    • EnthralledObserver

      Oh, and I just wanted to add… it seems you aren’t entirely aware of this, but Claire isn’t sharing the tech to help us see its benefit, she totally taking the piss, and we are all laughing and aghast with horror, or yawning with boredom along with her.
      I believe Claire is an ‘Ex’, not an ‘Indie’.

  • I’m constantly amazed that Davey gets away with repackaging this stuff and selling it over and over to the same people. OT8s redoing objectives and not even questioning it?

    I had no idea he was blaming the grades on Dan Koon. That’s pretty lousy. I wonder if the orgs still use the Pro TRs film that he’s in?

    • Espiando

      It’s obvious why he’s blaming Dan. Dan’s becoming the equivalent of Senior C/S Int for the Indies, so if Dan’s rep can be spoiled, maybe it might dissuade some of the on-the-fencers from taking the leap into the Indieville halfway house. When the Indies’ big selling point is “Standard Tech, only we mean it”, throwing mud on their main tech guy is a smart tactic. It worked with David Mayo, so why not try it again? Typical CoS thinking.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        And Dan called it. Said he would do just that!

    • Semper Phi

      They were still using it a few years ago, at the time I left. They were remaking many of the other tech training films, but they are in a really tough situation with the Pro TRs film, since the story is that LRH directed it and personally gave the actors passes on the quality of their TRs. Every student watches that film to see what “LRH’s TRs” look like so they can imitate them. I can’t describe to you how gobsmacked I was when I found out that the star of that film, “Joe Howard” AKA Dan Koon, had blown! His TRs are the gold standard, and it’s just fantastic that he’s now an SP.

  • USA MRIID

    What do you get for the money you hand over? REAMED UP THE ASS AGAIN! That’s what you get. Duh!

  • Milo MinderBinder

    Great interview Tony, you looked and sounded great.

    • AnonymousSP

      Doesn’t he always? Great shout outs for Wright’s book and the Underground Bunker. Love it.

      • i-Betty

        Yes!

  • AnonymousSP

    Good interviews Tony. Boy oh boy. The media knows and gone are the days where the journalists pretend they don’t know anything and purposefully mispronounce names (like Miscavige). Everyone is shouting it out loud and proud. Fuck you Miscavige and all miscreants who continue to follow him as the dear leader. Your cult bullying days are numbered and you’re getting shut down. Time to jump Kirstie, John, Kelly, Catherine, Michelle, Tom, Danny, Juliette, Nancy, ….

  • i-Betty

    A comment which was posted on yesterday’s article – but quite late – so was probably missed by most. It made me chuckle 🙂

    “Guest

    • 9 hours ago

    I went to KFC and made my meal an XL. I listened to PYT by MJ, after which I took out my BD of T2 and watched it on my LCD with THX.

    Now, imagine having to use abbreviations and acronyms all day every day but ones that are completely meaningless and the arbitrary inventions of a diseased mind. At least the ones above mean something.”

    I am very proud that I figured out everything except ‘BD of T2’. Oh, and also ‘LCD with THX’… 😀

    • WhereIsSHE

      LCD is his TV and THX is the surround sound.

      Maybe BD is a BlueRay Disc?? T2 is maybe Terminator 2??

      • Robert Eckert

        Bluray Disc of Terminator Two

      • i-Betty

        Thanks, you two!

  • USA MRIID

    “THE BUNKER: How…thrilling.”

    Hey! It beats screaming at ash trays, Tony!

  • USA MRIID

    “Flow 0 = you doing something to yourself.”

    Great, now I’m horny.

    • Nevermore

      Don’t do it, you’ll go blind. Blinder. 😉

      • i-Betty

        Lol!

  • dbloch7986

    Yesterday (Monday, August 12th, 2013) was the first day that I participated in any kind of demonstration outside of a Scientology organization. It was TONS of fun. I was really nervous at first. A friend of mine, who has never been involved with Scientology, offered to come with because he didn’t want me to go alone.

    There was a group of kids that came by. They were asking us about Scientology. We shared a lot of information with them. One of the kids seemed particularly educated about it. He kept telling his friends, “See, I told you.” Whenever we would come out with a piece of information he had heard before.

    There was another young guy, maybe about my age. He was with someone who appeared to be his girlfriend. He was asking me how people our age got sucked into the cult. I explained to him that I was a 2nd Gen and most people my age that he sees in the cult are too. So they don’t know anything else.

    There were a lot of people honking as they drove by. Quite a few people with drive by questions. Someone shouted, “You should make a sign that says, ‘We already know ourselves!'” A dig at the new Scientology slogan: “Know yourself.”

    At the end, one of the dickhead security guards (the tall slender one that looks malnourished–rides on a bike with a beard) followed my friend and me to our car and he got a picture of his license plate. I told my friend he should get a T-Shirt that says, “I faced Scientology and all they did was take a picture of my license plate.”

    All in all, it was a lot of fun and very cathartic to remember how miserable I used to be.

    One of the biggest things I noticed was that the people walking by wanted to know if one of us was an Ex. As soon as I told them I was, they were immediately interested and had all kinds of questions to ask. I think that we should get a group of Ex-es together and walk around with signs/business cards/flyers saying, “Scientology says they want you to know yourself. We want you to know Scientology. Ask an Ex.”

    I think that would be an awesome campaign. “Ask an Ex”

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I Like it!

    • ThetaBara

      Great idea! Exes are so valuable because of your understanding of what it was like, and what woke you up. Plus it will make Miss Cabbage crap his pants!

    • i-Betty

      Yay, Derek – fantastic! Please can you ask the girl to your left if I can have her hair, and at the very least ask her how she gets it so shiny 😀

      I’m so glad you had a fun, therapeutic time. The “Ask an Ex” campaign would be terrific.

      You’re the best 🙂

    • aboutandout

      “Ask an Ex” what a great idea. Wow look how far you have come and how many bridges you have crossed since you first started posting here. I remember some of your first posts and you broke my heart, now you are soaring like an eagle.

      • dbloch7986

        Aw thank you! It feels awesome to be remembered. 🙂

        I am still heartbroken. I have a couple of blog posts I want to get up tonight. One about a heartbreaking thing I had to do, the other about my protest! Can’t wait. I love writing.

        • i-Betty

          “I love writing.”

          And you’re very, very, very, very, very good at it!

          xxx

          • Poison Ivy

            Ditto that!

        • Cher

          Derek, I’m so jealous you got to go to the protest yesterday! I really, really want to go to one. I’m looking forward to read about your experience at the protest.

        • Still_On_Your_Side

          Derek, you have done a lot by just being you, I have told your story to many friends. I think the Church of Scientology becomes real for people when they hear stories of young people abused by the church. Otherwise people think the church is another scandal, albeit a bad one, populated by celebrities. I would like to hear that more young people are leaving, and I want Kirstie Alley and other so-called “liberals” in the church to own up to their homophobia.

    • aquaclara

      WOOOHOOOO, Derek (and FOD, too!). Fabulous day for you and for every single one of the people that saw you, your signs, and had a chance to know what really happens inside Scientology.
      Love to see you smiling.
      BIG WIN for the real world today….love this.

    • Poison Ivy

      GREAT idea – “Ask an Ex”! Love it Derek! Soooo proud of you and your friends!

    • GlibWog

      Derek I am so proud of you. You are just so young .. and could be my grandson. I would be proud to have a grandson like you. That is an absolutely fabulous Idea..
      ” Ask An EX.. We’ll Tell Ya The Truth! ” I am so glad you went to the demonstration. Good for you.

      You will make a difference D. One day there will come a time when someone comes up to you and says,
      “You have made a difference in my life. ” You have learned life’s lessons at an early age my son. . Some days are going to be easier than others of course. You are OUT Derek. YOU ARE OUT.. xoox

      • cicely neville

        ^^^^^^

        • GlibWog

          OK.. I must admit when I wrote .. ” You are OUT Derek.” tears were running down my cheeks. sniff I am just so proud of you Derek.

          You just have no idea. There are many of us who you will never meet who admire your strength.

          • i-Betty

            Glibby 🙁

            Hugs xxxxxxxxxxx

            • GlibWog

              Ohhh Betty I love my new Nickname.. Glibby… cute and Thanks!

    • cicely neville

      Never been to a protest – wanted to go dressed up as a pirate ( i have this old blouse with lace – sigh ) Anyway, knowing about your great time is just as good! I can see how cathartic it was for you, and how fun! Can’t wait to read about it. Hugs!

    • Jon Hendry

      Maybe a shirt. On the front: “I WENT EX. YOU CAN TOO” On the back: “Scientology says they want you to know yourself. We want you to know Scientology. Ask an Ex.”

    • Once_Born

      This must have been a liberating experience for you.
      All the best from the UK, mate. I follow your progress with great interest.

    • DamOTclese2

      Virgin no more!

    • DamOTclese2

      ” he got a picture of his license plate”

      The insane fucking criminal nut jobs are still doing that? ROFL. These insane loons think it intimidates people and will make them stop speaking the truth about their crime syndicate.

  • USA MRIID

    Scientology customers fucking:

    “Oh yes! OWN that sex! OWN IT!!!” -gasp-

    • i-Betty

      Gosh! 😛

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      i’ll bet they rollplay: Reg -vs- whale. That ought to be an interesting give and take scenario.

      • marti

        LOL. We need a scenario since you brought it up.

  • Noni Mause

    “Note how generally good the questions are from each of them — the media is definitely getting smarter about Scientology and its controversies!”
    Interesting comment, Tony. Not being informed enough to ask the right questions has been the single biggest error the media has made over the years it has interviewed scientologists. Your blog amongst other things is removing lack of information as a contributing factor in this. I don’t think the Co$ refusal to give official interviews is a coincidence. Their live media presence (we miss you Tommy!) stopped when solid information started flooding the Internet. Thank you all those exes brave enough to speak out.

    • Poison Ivy

      Good point Noni. Yeah, we do miss Tommy. The thing is, “Deny, deny, deny!” can’t work when the facts keep piling up against you – and it’s a lot harder to pull it off in front of a camera than it is from behind a press release.

  • Jeb Burton

    Great job Tony. I think the interviewers are finally reading your blog and doing a bit of research. It hasn’t always been that way.

  • aquaclara

    Just wanted to send some Philly love to Bert, Colin and David on their Suppressa Looza tour today! You guys are the best!

    • Gerard Plourde

      Are they in Philly?

      • aquaclara

        Were. And it was absolutely the best day ever. Despite a general lack of much that is cult-like in the city of Brotherly Love, they managed to provide some verrrry lovely enterbulation to the culties behind the curtains over on Race Street.

        I am in total awe of these three. The rain stopped just in time, the cops were totally lovely, that car-if you have not seen it, it is better than the bat mobile-made it into pics even amidst crowded city streets.

        Bert, Colin and David are funny bad-asses who are also kind and thoughtful. And they do not sleep. The vid will show a haha moment where an ex tries to enter the now locked up tight org to try to buy a book.
        Cheer these three on. They work incredibly hard, DO NOT Sleep, and record some funny and heartbreaking stuff.

        • WhereIsSHE

          WTH??! How did I miss knowing that they would be here??:(!!
          I would have braved the storm to join the fun on Race St!
          (Have you read the YELP reviews of the Race St. org???! Hilarious!)

          • aquaclara

            Oh, it would have been fun to have you there! Nice to have a neighbor! 🙂

  • dbloch7986

    I know a lot of people have been wondering about MidwestMom. I keep in touch with her on a regular basis. She wanted me to pass a message on to everyone at the bunker:

    “I am working on material for our rap/reggae/pipe and drum band, ‘Posse of Lunatics’, featuring a duet by you and I called ‘COBsmacked’.

    “Davey’s shakin’ just like Charo when she does her coochie-coos,

    Dainty Dave’s getting COBsmacked!

    He’s a yellow bellied coward and he doesn’t have a clue,

    Sleazy’s Dave’s getting COBsmacked!

    The bridge has been collapsing and he’s tumblin’ to the ground,

    Tiny Dave’s getting COBsmacked!

    The Feds are gettin’ closer, dwarfenfuhrer’s going down,

    Slimey Dave’s getting COBsmacked!

    Uber fantastical, mucho fanatical, esleaziastical: COBsmack!

    Word to the Bunker!”

    She sends her love to everyone!

    • Gerard Plourde

      Glad to hear about MM. I’ve missed her posts and was puzzled and saddened when she didn’t resurface as a regular after Easter.

      • sugarplumfairy

        She did.. She was back for a week or two.. Then decided to go for good..

        • Gerard Plourde

          I noticed her return but then saw she stopped posting. Say “Hi” for me.

          • sugarplumfairy

            wish I could.. I miss her too.

    • tetloj

      This is lovely Derek.Glad to hear MWM is still enturbulating. We miss her!

    • Poison Ivy

      Thanks Derek, I miss her.

    • i-Betty

      She is so funny! Send huge love back to her, Derek 🙂

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Good! Now when the heck is she coming back?
      We have been leaving the lights on for months now!!!

    • Sherbet

      Tell her the other Catholic gal in the Bunker says Hi, and come on back!

      • aquaclara

        And so does the other Catholic gal….:)
        We need her back!

        • Anonymookme

          Catholic girl #3 reporting for J & D! Come back Midwest Mom!

          • Sherbet

            Let’s all light votive candles and try not to burn the Bunker down.

          • sugarplumfairy

            CG4 here.. ditto that..

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Well, slap my ass and call me Sally. We got enough Catholic girls here for some Zappa:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbbqZmEZ-Tc

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              Catholic girls are so very naughty. That’s why they’re irresistible 😛

            • Sherbet

              Not the ones from my generation. We were innocent and completely ignorant.

            • Anonymookme

              Amen!

            • Sherbet

              Oh, gosh, I’m laughing my head off, Sally!

            • Sherbet

              A few more, and we can get a CYO volleyball team together.

            • Anonymookme

              A choir? TheBunker Bitchez do Ave Maria?

            • Sherbet

              I’m in.

      • Nevermore

        I’m an ex-Catholic girl (well, still a girl!) – does that count??

    • Captain Howdy

      Well, tell her this commie heathen misses her and expects her reactionary papist butt back here..at her own leisure.

      • Sherbet

        That should do it, Howdy.

        • Captain Howdy

          Of course! I have the magic touch.

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Just because this song has as much of a magic touch as your comment…which is to say about none. I DO love Oldfield, but his music with lyrics is awful.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT_A14q-klk

            • Grant C

              That is a beautiful song, thanks for making my ears bleed:)

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Kind of if like what a Vogon might listen to as he recites you his poetry?

            • Grant C

              Right up there with Vogon Poetry on the worst of the worst list.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Downvote? We must have a Vogon lurking here.

            • Grant C

              I was wondering about that!

              “Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
              Thy micturations are to me
              As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
              Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
              And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
              Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts
              With my blurglecruncheon, see if I don’t!”

            • Gerome

              That is some of the worst poetry I have ever heard in my entire lifetime tract

            • Sherbet

              Touch assist for Grant, stat.

            • Grant C

              Thanks, I feel much better now

            • Captain Howdy

              No problem, anytime.

            • Captain Howdy

              Just for comparing me in the slightest way to to Mike Oldfield i give you this..

              http://youtu.be/gEIXexrikKA

            • Studious Judious

              I’ve never heard of them before. Kinda reminds me of KMFDM.

            • Captain Howdy

              Yea, they came out of the same scene. I’m not a big techno/noisecore fan, but i do luv that tune. It’s like Ennio Morricone meets Lord Humungus.

            • Sherbet

              I can’t believe I finally “got” one of your music references.

            • i-Betty

              I’m FAR too old to admit this…but I LOVE it!

              [edit] Ahh. Then 1 minute 50 seconds kicks in 😛

            • Espiando

              Oh, God, not that version. You know that the Max Bacon vocal version should be the only one in existence, and yet…

          • Sherbet

            You do. You’re the bad boy whom every good girl loves. Mom can’t resist you.

    • Lunatic Posse

      🙂

  • media_lush

    hhhhm the site http://www.tomcruiseforever.com seems to have disappeared…. this is quite a professional looking site and would have a lot of stuff that could only have come from insiders [his PR people?]….. I love a mystery…. here’s the last grab I got. I should add that you couldn’t contact anyone there and there were no comment possibilities at all.

    • Mark

      I could always stand outside the Grove Hotel and shout “Where’s Shelly?” But they’re probably long gone.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I’d pay to see that. More than the Wicked show.

    • Captain Howdy

      Isn’t Suri in the UK with Tom for like 2 weeks?

      • media_lush

        Daily Express was the source on this [and posted a Feb 2012 pic]… picked up by The People and a few others…. no photo proof given

        • media_lush

          wasn’t a horse but a pink bike….. other sites are saying she’s in London for a “few weeks”…. yet no one can provide a single photo [the paps would be camping outside if they knew Suri was actually there]…..

          • tetloj

            I hope when the case against the mags goes to court (you know the ones I mean, don’t make me go looking) that we see some facts come forward about when and IF he has actually seen her since about August last year.

    • media_lush

      oh well, it’s back again….. it’s a real Tommy Girl love fest if you can stomach it

    • aquaclara

      My dog does that, too. When he is embarrassed over something, he tries to “be small” and hide. Love this because he is not small. Any more.
      When Tommy dog is done being embarrassed over his cult, he will be back.
      And it won’t take a puppy cookie to convince him. Which is a shame, really.

  • Grant C

    Wow, almost to 900 comments!

    • Sherbet

      890 were Theo’s.

      • aboutandout

        damn more red wine wasted, but the screen now has a pretty pink hue…lol

        • Sherbet

          Aw, I’m sorry, aboutandout. Have you considered using a bib to catch sudden spews?

    • Sherbet

      SSSHHHHHHH!!!! I don’t mind the quantity of Theo’s posts. It’s the volume that’s the killer. They go on for paragraphs, and I don’t have that much time left on the earth to read every word.

      • Grant C

        Listen, my child. I have wisdom for you: SKIM that crap. Let your eyeballs skip over his poorly poorly constructed ideas. It’s eye candy for the other indies and such to read here.

        • Sherbet

          Gotcha.

    • Mark

      Please God, nooooooo! No more patronising indie logorrheic Greek nutjobs!

      • Grant C

        Haha, I’m immune, he did this crap a long time ago- you get used to it!

      • Sherbet

        That’s right, Mark! The Bunker belongs to the rest of us pretentious, irreverent, loquacious, multi-cultural nutjobs!

    • sugarplumfairy

      Theo’s been absent for a long time and the past two days has been working hard to convince us that the tech isn’t all bad.. I smell an A-E.. Do indies do A-E?

    • aquaclara

      Let’s have a little pity for our night shifters….bad enough they have this many comments ahead of them. Then to addTroll Guy. Oh please. I want to give them brownies and keep them as friends.

  • Sherbet

    A propos of nothing: Schoepenhauer said: “Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of
    character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to
    living creatures cannot be a good man.” Just wanted to toss that in. Resume scientology discussion.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      I think I remember reading that many serial killers are found to have enjoyed torturing and killing animals as youngsters.

      • Sherbet

        Yes. Practice for what came next.

    • mouseyhair

      Love love love that Sherbet!! Return to resume discussion.

      • Sherbet

        🙂

    • Captain Howdy

      OK Sherb here’s your Schopenhauer scietology lesson.

      First off most of the serial killers I have studied tortured animals.

      “Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.”
      – Arthur Schopenhauer

      Lastly, vaLLarrr infamous Sci troll use to use this Schopenhauer quote at the end of it’s comments:

      “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

      Now the use of this quote is how supposedly how vaLLarrr was doxed as being a MMA instructor in NYC..that remains to be seen as far as I’m concerned

      • Sherbet

        “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

        Since scientology doesn’t even remotely resemble truth, nix on vaLLarrr’s use of that quote for any reason.

        • Once_Born

          “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,
          it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

          Doesn’t work too well for science, where its more like,
          ‘New ideas pass through three stages, first they are aggressively examined. Second, they stand up to examination. Third, they are accepted – until something better comes along.”

          Doesn’t ever apply to Scientology, which says,
          ‘Truth only needs one stage – accept that ‘Source’ is always right about everything for ever’.

          • Sherbet

            Perfect, Once_Born.

  • Sherbet

    I have only a pair of deuces here. I fold. Goodnight, all.

  • Gerome

    Hi guys. As a first time reader, I like what is here. I really like the commentary. Like the comments from Theo. My faves are about vocabulary. And, Theo had some good points. Really, LRH said why not communicate? Commonplace, to have petty disagreements. Also, it’s hard to resolve conflict. Being that as it may, it’s nice to be here. I like the intelligence demonstrated. And mostly, the puzzle that is this great mixture.

    • Gerome

      But overall, you all aren’t too bright. and don’t really know much about the topic of the subject

      • Artoo45

        Really? Brigth?

        • Gerome

          That was a misdo, I thoutg I undid it, checking

          • Artoo45

            No such word as misdo in English, or thout for that matter. Study Tech triumphs again.

            • Gerome

              I never said misdo

            • Artoo45

              Look assclam . . .

            • Gerome

              Not sure whose “assclam” you are looking for, but this is not the appropo venue for the thing you are looking for

            • Artoo45

              And it’s “apropos.” Flunk.

            • Artoo45

              Dude, really? Misdone? Not. A. Word.

            • tetloj

              lol

            • Artoo45

              This is my home, assclam. You are a guest, and not a very nice one. Run along now.

            • Gerome

              You are mistaken

            • Artoo45

              Did you not call us “a great mixture of morons?” I’m not mistaken.

            • Gerome

              Your’e taking that out of context

          • Artoo45

            Right. Run away little clam, run away.

          • EnthralledObserver

            You mean a ‘mistake’ or a ‘typo’, then, yes, you fixed it…

      • 2/10
        You made me laugh, and that’s always good.

        • Gerome

          Wow, if making you laugh is only 2/10, I don’t feel so bad anymore

    • Artoo45

      Said the clam who can barely string a cogent sentence together. Cogent. Word clear it asshole.

      • Gerome

        My sentences are, cogent, indeed

        • Cher

          No, no they are definitely not.

          • Gerome

            Hi, Cher!

            If you put the first letter of each sentence of my post together, what does that spell?

            • Artoo45

              W. H. O. T. H. E. F. U. C. K. C. A. R. E. S?

            • Cher

              I’m afraid I’m going to have to with Artoo45 on this one Gerome. Besides, I rather like thwarting your little game. However, if you’d like to play a round of “where’s Shelly?” I’d be game.

            • Gerome

              Similarly weak

            • Cher

              Okay, I have another game since you didn’t like that one. This one is really exciting!
              We have 5 minutes to write down all the lies LRH made up about himself and his past and Then we will compare lists and cross out any duplicates we have and the one with the most left wins.

            • Once_Born

              (Klaxon Sound) Pattern detected (Klaxon sound)

              Whenever someone who has just opened a disqus account and has no profile (click on their icon to view):

              1) Posts a provocative comment which praises Hubbard
              2) Replies to the responses with meaningless two-word responses
              3) Spins it out for long as possible

              They are probably here to try to derail the real discussion, or mix up the comments so much that you can’t follow the real discussion afterwards.

              I have installed and run a few blogs for other people, and understand how difficult and time-consuming this would be – but might it not be time to move to multi-threaded forum software that was designed to cope with the number of responses that are now appearing here?

            • Gerome

              Weak

            • Cher

              Hi Gerome!

              Why don’t you just tell me and save me the time. You know you want to tell me or you wouldn’t have brought it up.

              Dazzle me with your brilliance. I’m all a twitter with anticipation.

            • Gerome

              Nope, doesn’t work that way, srry

        • EnthralledObserver

          Heh, heh… your sentences are … clam-like, at best. And that’s not a compliment.

  • Satansthetan

    Ok indies, do some homework, the facts are there for anyone to research, read some books, browse the net, there is absolutely no question that Hubbard was a drunken, pill popping, racist, rapist, megalomaniac,or that scientology is quite simply put a long con that has outlived its creator. This is not speculation, it is the truth. Wake up and smell the coffee folks, you bin had!!!

  • Artoo45

    Ugh. Clambot Gerome is barely able to string a sentence together. It’s like the final days of the third reich when the Germans were just putting uniforms on anyone of any age and skill level to defend Berlin from the encroaching Allies. Things must be pretty bad in in Hollywood and Hemet if this is the best quality of soldier they can muster. Gerome, honey, there’s an edit feature. Try it. You fix all the sentences so that they read correctly, I’ll check your work and then apologize like a nice Marcabian.

    • Gerome

      LOL

      • Cher

        Little clam, you’re so cute with your little down votes. You know if OSA finds you were here you are going to be steamed clam. Naughty, naughty

        • Gerome

          Meanie

          • Cher

            Oh little clam I’m not nearly as mean as your OSA handlers. Think you will be able to get through your next auditing session without revealing you were here?

    • Cher

      Artoo45- I like you, I really, really like you! 🙂

    • Sydjazz

      Don’t feed the clams hehe.

  • Gerome

    1K comment

    • Artoo45

      The endless sec checks and the rice and beans finally getting to you? You can leave you know. They can’t stop you, and the freeloader debt is unenforceable. Just hide by the main gate until someone pulls in and run, run like the wind, little clam!

      • Gerome

        Do you like puzzles?

  • Gerome

    Wow, I guess the puzzle solvers are scarce, no John P, no Canuck… sigh

    • Artoo45

      It’s an east coast/west coast thang. Don’t take it personally. Our pharma overlords keep us on a tight schedule with no crossover allowed, but the pay is fantastic, then there’s the company cars and vacations at the Fifth Invader Force Implant Station and Spa in the Marquesas. Which reminds me, my shift is almost up. He’s all yours Cher!

      • Cher

        Hey, what did I do to deserve that! 🙂

      • i-Betty

        So funny! And poor Cher…I should have stayed up later last night 😀

    • noseinabk

      Theo helped tire everyone out today.

      • i-Betty

        😀

  • LaLa104

    Tony, you are a class act, meaning by you not correcting David when he originally said your site as TO.com… He did make up for it at the end of the segment. His faux pas .. But hey he’s human .. I’ve made many a mistake here (as I humbly curtsey and bow backing up slowly embarrassingly much to the chagrin of your regs) on your blog.
    I just love to hear you share your knowledge of C0$. I am in awe of you and your knowledge. You could read me the phone book or better yet, you could read some gibber gibberish of ELWRONG and I think I’d be happy as a CLAM.. Tee Hee. Is that a double pun and did I say that out loud?

  • Gerome

    It will be historic, since no bunkerite was up to the task, but I’m giving out my solution for the day in 15 minutes

    • noseinabk

      NO dont do it HM.

      • Gerome

        I need some evidence of a solution

        • noseinabk

          Hail Marcabia!

          • Gerome

            Did u guess. or solve the puzzle?

            • noseinabk

              I guessed then checked the puzzle. I was hoping someone else would catch on.

            • Gerome

              Usually, Canuck would give her explanation for the solution. It’s optional:)

            • noseinabk

              Sorry. I thought someone would play when you gave the hint. I usually hope for JP, Howdy and Spackle among others. I began to guess after the immediate insult. I , however suck at puzzles so am glad it was easy this time.

            • Gerome

              No worries.. the solution is to take the first letter of each sentence from my “Hi Guys, Im a first time reader” post

  • dbloch7986

    http://dbloch7986.blogspot.com/2013/08/scientology-it-still-hurts.html

    My newest blog post. There’s another one coming about the protest.

    • LaLa104

      OMG, Derek, I have no words!… How were you to know that they were being “REAL” with you after all you’ve been through and their rejection of you and their “disconnection” of you that you have been dealt with by your own family!… I hope there is some way that you can receive what your Aunt left you. Do NOT beat yourself up! Anyone and I mean ANYONE in your shoes would of done the same thing that had an ounce of integrity.
      I have SO much respect for you and I am so glad that you have family on the “Other Side” to help you through your pain of your immediate family. You are an amazing man and I don’t want you to beat yourself up over this. Thank You, Thank You and Thank You again for sharing your experiences with all of us here at the Bunker and at the VV of your story.. My heart is with you and I just wanna adopt you as my own son.
      Much love to you Derek and who knows? Maybe after all this cluster fritz of emails and texts you will get your rightful inheritance from your Aunt.
      Much Love.. xoxoxo

  • People… Really…

    The point of the troll is not that they believe what they write. The point of the troll is not to convince you that they are right and that you are wrong.

    The point of the troll is to make you stop discussing whatever you were discussing and for you to start writing long messages about how you are right and the troll is wrong.

    How can you tell that this is so? Well, the troll keeps coming back, again and again, no matter how long a post you – the clever one – puts in pointing out how wrong they are.

    So, getting back on topic, it’s heartening to see exposed the drivel that is the product of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology. For those who still believe in this drivel, it must be interesting to see the necessary cognitive dissonance (wound out over years inside the bOrgs) sped up and explained in fast motion by an ex-victim, especially one as lucid about the process as Claire.

    And enough with the interviews, Tony, let’s have that book, already!

    • noseinabk

      If you are talking about Theo, I completely understand why he was here today. I checked Marty’s blog. If I had to wade through that boorish crap, I would go elsewhere to play too. 😉

      • LaLa104

        Bwwwaaaahahahahaha.. U got that right.. Can you spell B-O-R-I-N-G without falling asleep at the same time reading his blog lately.. snort…

    • Once_Born

      I sometimes wonder if the ‘unique selling point’ of Tony’s book is that it offer be an account of the beginning of the end of the CofS.

      When the organisation breaks up, weird things will happen, and be reported on the news. Consequently, the best time to publish will be shortly after the CofS dam breaks, when people will buy the book to try to understand what on earth is going on.

      Timing is everything…

  • KJP in Portland

    Sorry all. I got sick and haven’t been posting / commenting the past 2 days. Still reading all the great stuff on our Great Crusade against Mr. Cabbage (does he have breath like LRH?). I should be on the mend in the next day or two.

    …and I still have to go to work tonight (ugh)

    Always with you guys, in spirit and in solidarity,

    KJP

    • i-Betty

      Aww, get well soon, KJP 🙁

      xxx

  • dbloch7986
    • DodoTheLaser

      Love you, Derek. Sleep well. Tomorrow is a new better day.

      • joan nieman

        All our love to you Derrick!!!

    • i-Betty

      I’m so glad your friend offered to come with you. Friends are the best.

      Keep the photo of your family by your bed, blow them a kiss each night, remember ONLY the good things before you go to sleep, and wake up to a new and better day 🙂

      Love you xxx

    • aquaclara

      Derek, I am so glad you have your extended family in your life. And sorry for the situation that resulted in the loss of your immediate family.
      Sharing your story helps everyone see how the disconnection policy of the church hurts kids, parents and extended family. It also puts to bed the cult’s claim that disconnection is a choice. Everyone knows that it is not.
      I am glad that Tony’s interviews include this aspect of the cult. They also draw more people here, to see your story, and that of others who have lost so much.
      <<>>> to you. Stay strong, and keep writing. Wishing you much happiness, as you work to overcome the crap.
      Peace+love.

  • DodoTheLaser
  • Jeb Burton

    “Communicate with any one on any subject”. Ha. I live in Clearwater and when I go downtown, these drones do not say 2 words to anyone. If you ask them what they do in the buildings, are you in town for studies, or even how are you, all you get is a blank stare. The only extended conversation I have ever had with any of them, was security guards telling me to move on. On a public sidewalk. They are a bunch of arrogant assholes. I have been sporadically following your series with Clair, and I dont get why any of these people call bullshit, this is a bunch of crap. Im $40,000 in, and this is what im getting for my money? Hard for me to feel any compassion for adults who enter into this claptrap of bizarre theories by LRH.

    • EnthralledObserver

      I’m of similar mind to you, Jeb. The only way I can seem to rationalise ‘why’ is that it is marketed to a certain person, the kind that searches for a purpose, or improvement, or enlightenment organically. I’m not like this at all, and suspect you aren’t either, so I don’t think we’d ever fall for it. It’s the ONLY rationale I can come up with though.

      • Serai 1

        It doesn’t have to be a certain kind of person. You just have to be at a certain kind of place in your life – hurt, vulnerable, searching, etc. It’s the way all mind-controlling cults work. The strongest, most intelligent person can be caught by an organization like this if he/she is at the wrong emotional place at the wrong moment. They can smell it, believe me. If you’d like to see a really good enactment of it, get hold of the film “Ticket to Heaven”. (Though it’s about the Moonies, not Scientology.) The whole process is laid out there: a perfectly reasonable, skeptical, interesting guy – who is going through a painful breakup – gets caught by the Moonies and has his mind literally re-wired out from under him. It’s chilling, and a real wake-up call for people who don’t understand how this can happen. They’ve got it down to a science, seriously, and can run it on anybody.

        • EnthralledObserver

          With all due respect, I don’t buy that. Unless I was in the market for a knife, no-one is going to convince me to buy one, especially a ridiculously expensive one. No, I stand by my opinion, the people who are taken in by this con are of the type that are in some way ‘searchers’ by nature. Sure, intelligence obviously isn’t a factor, I can see that by the quality of people who are now Ex-es who comment here and other places on the net, but they were searchers by nature. The only exceptions to my belief of this are those who were born into it, or taken into it as young children… some of them, by their (logical?) (grounded?) nature got out as soon as they had seen enough that proved the mirage that Scientology is. i.e. Jenna, Claire, Marc…

          • Serai 1

            Yeah, it’s really easy to say “oh, that would never happen to me”. Guess what? Everyone ever caught by a cult would say that. Every. Single. One. Where do you think they get all their members, from the cabbage patch? Other than kids growing up in these institutions, every single person in them was once a normal human being, and human beings are not nearly so idiotic and gullible as some people would like to believe. It may make you comfortable to think you’re above all that, but you aren’t. Sadly, the only way it could ever be proved would be if it actually happened to you, and unlike people who love to sneer at “those imbeciles”, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

    • aboutandout

      And when they finally do communicate they are very angry. People promoting a church or belief when confronted with doubters plead their case in a manner that attempts to sway you to their side.

  • Zenster

    Can you imagine actually paying $$ for this mind numbing stupid shit?

    • DamOTclese2

      To be fair, people hand their money to Christanic priests for the same level of abject insane stupidity.

      • Nevermore

        I think most, if not all, Christian churches just pass round a plate during the service. They don’t withhold your right to attend or take part until your cheque has cleared?

        • Serai 1

          I was raised a Catholic and never once were we required to give money. Sure we were asked, but nobody ever got so much as a jaundiced look if they didn’t give. It’s why I refuse to consider Scientology a “church” – the fact that you CANNOT get anything from them without coughing up a lot of dough tells me there’s nothing spiritual about it at all – it’s a racket, plain and simple.

  • aquaclara

    For the record, these interviews are fantastic.

  • His Holy High Shortness himself ordered that every process relating to each Grade be added to the process checklists in 1987 when RTRC redid the Academy Training levels and then forced us to comply. Then, years later (like nearly 20) he “discovers” that people were being run on every process of every grade and then does a pendulum swing back to putting only some of the processes on each grade and marketed it as a new discovery. I mean, DM is a real piece of work.

  • DamOTclese2

    I miss Heber Jentzsc and his thoughtful, well-reasoned lunatic insane screaming rants in public. 🙂