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Jon Atack: How to talk to a Scientologist to plant the seeds of doubt

Jon_AtackJon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than a year on Saturdays he helped us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet. He was kind enough to send us a new post.

Jon, it looks like you have found another fun way to turn the words of L. Ron Hubbard back in on themselves. Let’s hear it.

JON: “More communication, not less, is the answer,” or so L. Ron Hubbard asserted, some time before introducing “disconnection” as a core policy. And there is a key in this statement as to how we might help current inmates of the cult. John McMaster, the “World’s First Real Clear” — who left after struggling with a broken collar bone for three hours, having been hurled from a ship into the sea — used to call Saint Hill just before the bus took the poor slaves back to Stonelands and engage a registrar in conversation. I have little doubt from my meetings with John that these were rambling and long, but they were well meant. And by the time he was done, the registrar would have accumulated some first-hand material about “Tubby,” as John called his former master.

The late, great Cyril Vosper — one of the most amusing friends it has ever been my pleasure to know — used to chat with street recruiters, who would be amazed when he told them he’d spent time with Hubbard on many occasions. They would inevitably ask for his strongest memory of the Great OT, and Cyril would say, “His rotten teeth. He had the filthiest breath. Terrified of dentists, you see.” (if you don’t believe him, watch The Shrinking World of L. Ron Hubbard).

My friend, Mitch, had a very direct approach. He traveled around Europe, in the course of his work, so would find the local org and tell the nearest recruiter about OT III. When Milan Org was at its peak — and more than “Saint Hill size,” with about 200 staff — Mitch found a “body-router” who spoke no English. Far braver than I, Mitch ventured into the busy Org and had a desperate time failing to find anyone who could understand enough English to grasp the story of Xenu and the Wall of Fire. A year or so later, Frank Notaro was dragged into the basement at the Blue Buildings and repeatedly attacked with cattle prods, for parading in his ping-pong ball adorned “body thetan” suit, so I was rather glad that no one understood Mitch.

Another of Mitch’s projects was to write tantalizing letters to “letter regs” in foreign climes. He told one that he had recently inherited and was wondering whether to buy the Bridge or a Porsche. Can you imagine the agony, when he responded to the eager reg’s letter by saying that he was going to buy the car, instead of Total Freedom?

OK, so perhaps there is another way, much as I admire Mitch’s courage and wit. Anonymous capitalized on South Park, by cutting any recruiting lines to the young and cool, but how do we penetrate the walls of the grand edifice and reach inside to the convicted?

Now, Scientology functions on the antique Taylor system of statistical management, and while the “governing policy” of the “religion” is to “make money,” there are a host of other stats, including “letters in.” This leads to an anomaly. As long as your correspondence is not hostile, it increases the letter reg’s stats. The problem, back in the day, was that once you’d let out your address, you would be subjected to whole rainforests of glossy promotional material. And setting up a Post Office box is perhaps too much to ask. With the advent of email, it is possible to remain thoroughly anonymous and to communicate with the prisoners of Scientology.

And there are so many friendly questions that can help a person dislodge even the surest fanaticism (and, yes, an Invest Aide did once confess to me, mid-mission, and she remains one of the finest people I’ve ever met).

My old chum, Steve Hassan, has long spoken about the cult-identity that is grafted onto the authentic identity (if you want to impress people at parties, find Flavil Yeakley’s paper on cloning of identity in cults). As he says, you can shift a person away from their steely-eyed zeal, simply by reminding them of their life before the cult. So, ask the reg what he or she did before Scientology. Ask about the family. Ask about hobbies and passions. I like to ask what the person expected to gain from their involvement (I’ve yet to meet anyone who actually achieved their goal). But also what they expect to achieve and what they’ve seen others achieve. With time, a conversation should develop naturally. The reg won’t give up, because you are adding to the stat which governs all of his or her “privileges” (ie human rights, to the rest of us). And, given enough gentle help, people do decide to leave.

Now, multiply your endeavours by a thousand. If letter regs the world over are flooded with friendly enquiries, but without a penny to show for it, the Orgs will find themselves over-stretched. And some of those regs will begin to waver and perhaps realize that the outside world is not as hostile as they’ve been brought to believe. After all, as the Founder said, “A being is as alive as he can communicate.” Maybe we could bring some of the poor victims of Scientology back to life?

THE BUNKER: That’s a fascinating call to action, Jon. And it raises a question for us: Perhaps our readers who left the church can tell us about conversations with outsiders which might have contributed to their process of leaving?

Was a confrontational approach ever effective? (Someone shouting about Xenu at you, for example.) Or was it someone simply asking about your former life, as Jon suggests here? We think other Bunker readers would be very interested to hear, from former members, what they think is the best way to engage a Scientologist in discussion.

 
——————–

The systematic destruction of Ken Dandar picks up speed

Our longtime readers know we’ve been watching the strange and frustrating saga of Ken Dandar, the Tampa attorney who found his livelihood threatened because he agreed to represent against the Church of Scientology a woman who wanted answers about the death of her son in Clearwater, Florida. Scientology convinced a retired local judge to award it $1 million in damages because, it claimed, Dandar had promised never to sue the church after a 2004 settlement. Dandar denied that he gave up the right to represent a client against Scientology, but the judge disagreed.

Joe Childs of the Tampa Bay Times yesterday reported that Scientology is now beginning to collect on the damage award, and seized the bank account of Dandar’s firm.

We wonder if the American Bar Association is ever going to take notice of this situation. An attorney is facing ruination not because he is accused of malpractice, or because he hurt a client, or even because he sued someone in a vexatious manner. An attorney is facing ruination for the simple act of acting as an attorney and representing a woman who blamed Scientology for the death of her son. (The lawsuit was dismissed for lack of evidence after Dandar left the case.)

This story frustrates us no end, and it is with some hesitation that we mention something that encouraged us when we read it — and that’s seeing the byline of Joe Childs on a Tampa Bay Times story. We sent Childs a note of congratulation recently after the news emerged that he’d taken a buyout from the newspaper which is (like all other dead-tree publications) facing severe cutbacks.

Joe got out while the getting out was still good, and we have no doubt he’ll thrive. We only hope he continues to write about Scientology for the Times when he has the chance.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on October 4, 2014 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

 

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  • DodoTheLaser
    • HillieOnTheBeach

      A head’s up if this has never been mentionned/noticed before:

      When using the google doc, the scroll bar at the right of the screen won’t let you scroll down, but your mouse’s scrolling wheel will.

    • Juicer77

      Fresh coffee and red-X’s. Yum!

  • DodoTheLaser

    “An attorney is facing ruination not because he is accused of malpractice, or because he hurt a client, or even because he sued someone in a vexatious manner. An attorney is facing ruination for the simple act of acting as an attorney and representing a woman who blamed Scientology for the death of her son.”

    We wonder if the American Bar Association is ever going to take notice of this situation.

    Yes, we do wonder.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Great anecdotes and tips, Jon. Thank you.
    Personally, both when in and out, I find natural, friendly communication is the only effective way.

  • Are_sics

    Kudos to Joe Childs, again. The Ken Dandar story so far is really soul-crushing.

    Jon’s article is lovely in its compassion and hilarious in its irony. Thanks for that.

  • anoni81b4u

    I have mixed feelings about the first story. As a group, I am not fond of lawyers. But I detest scientology ..

  • Dr_Orpheus

    Cyril Vosper’s strongest memory of Hubbard was his rotten teeth and bad breath. I remember a discussion with an online Scientologist who claimed that pictures of Hubbard’s bad teeth were fake. He had supposedly seen a picture in an org somewhere which showed that his guru had perfect teeth.

    • Are_sics

      I suppose it’s unlikely the online Scientologist would find the means, either inner or outer, to read up on the theory of cognitive dissonance. Tavris and Aronson’s “Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me” might just change lives of parishioners.

    • Captain Howdy

      “He had supposedly seen a picture in an org somewhere which showed that his guru had perfect teeth.”

      It’s true, here’s the pic.
      ….

  • endoftheQ

    I can’t recall anyone confronting me, or anyone I know, shouting “Xenu” or even denigrating $cientology. I think for a number of us in the UK, especially those who were casual public, it was the premises-over-people scenario that came about, culminating with the i$teal Orgs, compounded by the ludicrous statuses. We’d always had to make do with a tiny little shop on Tottenham Court Road in London for 40+ years and that was more than adequate, even for a city of eight million people. I don’t believe anyone really understood the need for Queen Victoria Street, even though I believe the IAS paid for it themselves, except perhaps as a potential celebrity showcase. It’s empty, always has been, it’s in a backwater street in the financial district, that has absolutely no footfall at all during the weekends. It was pointless, and we knew it. I slipped away along with half-a-dozen people when we realised it had become all about the money and nothing else.

    (refresh, svp)

    • Ah. Day org then, not foundation 😉 We would always protest in the weekend, so “day org” public would never see us. And I never tried to change the minds of the clams, so I have no idea what would work. We had one ex-clam protester (Roland R-B of the bloodied photo yesterday) who quit more or less overnight when he heard about Xenu, so we were a bit “Xenu! LOL!!” Still are, for that matter

    • MaxSpaceman

      Beautiful! London’s booming!!! Straight up and vertical !!!

  • A year or so later, Frank Notaro was dragged into the basement at the Blue Buildings and repeatedly attacked with cattle prods, for parading in his ping-pong ball adorned “body thetan” suit, so I was rather glad that no one understood Mitch.

    Yes, that was the story I was thinking of yesterday, I think. Cattle prods? Wait a second… Do we really want to know why those goons just happened to have a stock of cattle prods on hand? (It’s the Bunker, of course we do!)

    • DodoTheLaser

      Yeah, seems a bit surreal/unreal.

    • Sid

      That one jumped out at me also. It’s like taking the old Pumpkin Process to a whole new level (way back when they took someone into the boiler room in the basement and screamed at and slapped them to get them in line).

        • DodoTheLaser

          I bet RTC will blame it on GO. Or security guards.

      • grundoon

        Pumpkin Process? … never heard of this one. Please tell more!

        • Sid

          They would drag some sorry staff member down to the boiler room in the basement and slap and scream at them for hours. Also called an SRA (severe reality adjustment).

  • Sid

    The screaming or in your face approach never seemed to work. There was an automatic ‘he is crazy’ wall set up the second it starts.

    The conversational approach is better but still difficult. If you stray into sensitive territory the Scientologist will shut the conversation down, and usually just walk away.

    Jon’s suggestion on asking about their previous life and goals is probably the best approach but I’ve tried it and it doesn’t always work either.

    I think someone has to have their own trigger first. Like the over regging at events, or screaming staff members or some other blatant offense.

    Someone said on the blog the other day that you could say, “You need to stop making excuses for the outnesses you’ve seen”, or something like that. That would hopefully trigger what that individual would already consider to be a gap in the perfection they think they live in.

    It would be a great study to find out from all ex’es what led them out. There might be some commonalities we could use.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Good post, Sid. Thanks. Calm talk at the right time and place is the best approach, imo.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Ironic that to possibly break through to a Scientologist…….we would need to find their ruin.
      But on the other hand, it makes perfect sense.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Oh, it’s also so very ironic how most “wogs” manifest a lot more “ARC” than most scientologists.

    • Graham

      “You need to stop making excuses for the outnesses you’ve seen”

      Back in the 80s a friend of mine joined a cult, convinced by reading the books and listening to the tapes of the cult’s guru. Ten years later, part of his disillusionment was realising that recent recruits had never read any of the cult’s core materials; they were there because of the hype, the promises and the ‘buzz’ but they’d little idea of the fundamental principles of the movement.

      Might this be so for some in $camatology? Would they be sufficiently aware of core Hubbard doctrines to recognise an outness when they see one? (A genuine question. As a never-in I wouldn’t know one way or the other)

      • Sid

        There are lots of people in Scientology who have never read Dianetics or any books for that matter. The church is riddled with things contradictory to Hubbard as well as common sense. It just takes that one thing (or more) which is a trigger for the individual.

        • ze moo

          “It just takes that one thing (or more) which is a trigger for the individual.” That one thing is called ‘finding their ruin’ in $cientology. It is the scammers way of finding the chink in any ones armor. Once that chink is found, the sales pitch begins and never ends.

          That chink may be the ‘betterment of mankind’, it may ‘super powers’, it may be ‘make a million dollars auditing’. Getting enough individuals to buy in to any of these (and many other) ‘ruins’ is what body routers and case supervisors and other clam staff used to be good (or good enough to keep a profitable operation going) at.

    • Hey, let’s have another Best Protesting Slogans thread 🙂

      I still go with “Your doubts are valid” and “phone your family” for something to show to the clams (the last one for Damnation Navy)

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        One I hoped to hear in Clearwater as the ogers were stepping in/out of the busses:

        “raise your hand if you didn’t get yelled at today”

    • Stacy

      You’re suggestion of a study is great.

    • Mark Foster

      Being on staff was the experience that pushed my cognitive dissonance to the limit, along with discussions with the friend( a ¨Clear¨ who was a brilliant musician with no gigs) who got me into Scientology 16 years before…He was openly critical of Miscavige and made me aware of Debbie Cook´s letter…and spoke of the many shitty experiences he had with different orgs regarding his musical performances for events(though artists were allegedly revered in the church and by the ¨founder¨, orgs NEVER wanted to PAY him for his work). Being on staff, I witnessed the accepted practice of ass-kissing reverence for Sea Org members and OT´s, and experienced the back-stabbing, arrogant, belittling behavior of ¨executives¨. The loud, 3-hour-plus events with bullshit stats asserting Scientology´s expanding influence on the world contradicted what I saw: empty course rooms, auditors without pc´s, shitty pay, long hours, and staff members who had poor health and no life outside of their mission to save the world. On an even more basic level, I did not like or agree with the idea of being ¨better than others¨ because I ¨had the tech¨ . I didn´t like how I was actively- daily- betraying my own core values…values that got mangled, lost, perverted, or squashed by my adherence to scientology. Having taken courses In Albuquerque, at ASHO in Los Angeles, and at the ¨founding church in DC, I was also always struck by the limited number of non-white people in Scientology. 2 other major ¨out-points¨ were the ENDLESS ¨regging¨ and the exorbitant cost of participating in ¨the only workable technology for the salvation of mankind¨ (I used to justify that by telling myself that ¨the tech¨ would give me the tools I needed to make the money to ¨go up the bridge¨.) Finally, I recognized that the total experience was making me(and others around me) feel exhausted and utterly unhappy. As soon as I ´blew´ staff…and began to be able to sleep a little better…and returned to playing music for more than a few hours a week (btw, when I was being recruited for staff, the lie that I could continue to be a professional musician while being on staff was repeated to me), my deconstruction of my scamatology experienced picked up momentum…and, in less than a year , I knew I was DONE with it. Discovering the long and sordid history of the cult´s crimes was sobering…and liberating, in the sense that that discovery convinced me that my long-standing gut feelings about and recurring unease with the attitudes and policies of the cult were, finally, correct! I had no clue about that shit when I was in! The decontamination process continues. I am grateful to Jon Atack and Russell Miller and Steve Hassan and a host of other writers, scholars, and journalists (especially Scoopy Ortega) for their contributions and hard work in the cause to shine light on the ruthless barbarism that scientology actually is. This blog was instrumental in getting me to look and dig and question…and heal. Here, I could learn from the experiences and insights of others and vent and also laugh at the absurdity of my experience and simply get on with embracing life…and others, in a new way. I enjoy the panoply of characters here and the impassioned discourse. Feeling fortunate and grateful…
      Carpe Motherfucking Diem ! 🙂 Thanks to all of you.

      • aquaclara

        What a fabulous post. I’m sorry for all the pain you experienced, but by the end of your story, I was cheering.
        Wishing you much happiness, Mark.

      • Sid

        It does amaze me at how many ‘red flags’ there are and how many I let go by before waking up. Best of luck and I like your Carpe Motherfucking Diem statement.

      • Lurkness

        Thanks for sharing your experience. Great post.

      • Stacy

        What Aqua said. Thanks for sharing.

      • ObsessedReader

        Brilliant post, Mark. Very inspirational and beautifully detailed. I wish you could share it with everyone still in! Anyone still have Debbie Cook’s email distribution list? 😉

        • Mark Foster

          thanks!

  • Truthiwant

    My getting-out story.

    I was having lunch with some friends, when one of the people asked me if I was still involved with Scientology. The question highly embarrassed me because I had never talked to any of the other people around the table about being connected to Scientology. I stuttered a lame reply, saying that I was not involved any more, but that it was important to respect different opinions and that there were some good things in Scientology.

    Well, that conversation came to a dead end pretty quickly, as you can imagine. However, I had the impression that everybody seemed to be staring at me. Feeling bad, I realized the cat was out of the bag and when, later on, I was asked again if I was a Scientologist, I knew I had to do something. I had been having strong doubts about Scientology but never considered researching a bit more in to the subject.

    So, I decided to take to the internet, and once I had started, I spent two whole days and nights, incessantly looking at everything I could click on. Amusingly, when I stumbled across the OT3 documents, I began reading them with a certain amount of apprehension. Anyway, seeing that I am still around, I can quite honestly say that not only did I not die from pneumonia, I didn’t even get the sniffles!

    I couldn’t believe what I was looking at, but I knew it was all true. In the end, after those two days of looking and reading, in a way I felt betrayed, but mostly, I felt an absolute fool.

    Anyway, it was the internet that got me out of Scientology for good.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Because, unlike scientology, the Internet works and helps people.
      Thanks for sharing, Truthiwant.

    • endoftheQ

      I’d have been lucky if anyone even knew the word $cientology here, although some of the older generation were vaguely aware of Dianetics. It really wasn’t until the internet that we realised what was going on in the USA. We’d had rucks down at East Grinstead, but for the average Londoner, that might as well have been the Outer Hebrides, you might make an annual pilgrimage but that was about it. We owe Sir Tim Berners-Lee an awful lot. 😉

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Ok, we have been listening to you blather on about no one in the UK has a clue Scientology exists for two days. If you really had one iota of knowledge about the subject, you would know that there is a very long list of Brits that were involved with Scientology over various time frames. I could make you a list of names, but what is the point?
        You can go to this thing called “the internet” and look it up yourself.

        Scientology is small. It always has been. EVERYWHERE!!!
        Including the US. The average person in the US didn’t know what the hell Scientology was until south park and most still don’t. And even if they have heard the word they don’t give a rats ass what it means (hence the need for a proper education whenever possible).

        We are here because we are a group that DOES know what it is and we want to irradicate it.
        And frankly, IF you really are a Brit (the lady doth protest a bit too much)……….you are starting to embarrass the hell out of your compatriots.

        • endoftheQ

          Um. You had Hollywood, Celebrity Centres, Big Blue, Flag, Clearwater, etc. We had a tiny little shop. I’m sorry if my pointing out that it has always been practically invisible here doesn’t suit your narrative, but that doesn’t stop it being the case.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Whatever. You win. You are the queen of Scientology knowledge.
            keep showing it to us in the manner you are.
            Your doing a fine job.

          • Truthiwant

            Scientology is not big in the UK, right, but it did manage to partially take over a very peaceful and pretty Sussex town called East Grinstead. It has not brought any good to the town business wise, except maybe for the local Lloyds Bank branch.
            There are only two places in the world where Scientology has actually taken over a town, to some respect, and they are East Grinstead and Clearwater, so maybe all this talk about Scientology being nothing in the UK is a bit out of place.

            • endoftheQ

              To my mind, Saint Hill, being an hour by train from London, and then a taxi ride, is like saying Gold Base is high profile. I get that the perception outside of the UK is that Saint Hill is Saint Hill size, but it’s tiny in comparison to a lot of other cults country estates. It’s also something that pre-internet, most people weren’t even aware of it being important.

            • without forming a mutual support group or anything, I think Gold Base is a good analogy. to me, St Hill is to London as Gold Base is to Los Angeles…

            • Truthiwant

              Many people had never ever heard of the little country called ‘The Republic of San Marino’ set right in the middle of Italy, until a few years ago when San Marino gave the only vote to the UK for the Eurovision Song Contest.
              Well, does it mean that because practically nobody knows about San Marino, then it doesn’t really exist and nobody gives a shit about it?

            • MaxSpaceman

              As you pointed out, Truthi, ‘… only two places in the world where Scientology has actually taken over a town, to some respect, and they are East Grinstead and Clearwater.” – Truthiwant.

              This is a most significant thing in a society, a nation. And it is hugely profound for thousands of people in those 2 locales. And that cannot be ignored, nor diminished. That influence is rancid. And toxic to nearly everyone in those locales. Additionally, all the emotional atrocities and criminality which is W W P are present and operative. And that is abhorrent, indeed.

              At the same time, take all of the US of A and all of the U.K., all their peoples and enterprises. Scientology is unknown. And if known, marginally based on celebrity recognition. Since Scientology is cloaked as “religion” in the U.S., all of it’s conflicts/stories are not published hardly anywhere, and remain of no interest to readers. Then they’re continually not published because of that. No one cares. It’s a miniature subject in the broad spectrum of human interest and all that is going on today.

              In the Bunker, as many have pointed out, it’s personal. It’s a big story, with huge interest, and as significant as any of the top stories that capture the world audience attention. Bunkeroos care. And that adds the urgency and the day-to-day concern that Bunker aficionados share.

              And today, as the amount of sciloonery getting attention is expanding, world conditions and situations are, also, expanding in number and intensity. With that, “Society” here and across the pond, on the whole, in regards to scientology, don’t care and don’t give a hoot-in-hell about the cherch.

            • Truthiwant

              Scientology is tiny. It means nothing to 99.999999% of the population. But it does mean something to the people who are involved in it and are trying to get out.

              When Scientology is mentioned in some general conversation that I have overheard or been part of, I have never found a single person who has not heard of the word. Anybody I have listened to who has been involved, where the word Scientology has cropped up, has immediately mentioned the word ‘cult’. Maybe people don’t know what actually goes on inside Scientology, but they certainly know that it has a bad name.

            • MaxSpaceman

              That is good to hear. (I stopped bringing up the subject at all when Running Scared started.)

            • Robert Eckert

              Clearwater Florida, being a more-than-one-day drive from Washington DC, or even further from New York City, is also a place that most Americans don’t know. Your point?

            • endoftheQ

              That somewhere like Los Angeles with a population of half that of London, has a huge physical presence by comparison. It’s visible. Until the i$teal Morgue, we’ve never had that, and in truth, the morgue doesn’t add much in the way of visibility. It’s hidden away in the financial district, at the back end of Queen Victoria street that hardly anyone goes to. I know that myself and others have had an incredibly tough time convincing anyone that $cientology is an issue here, simply because no one sees anything, nothing at all. Yes, I can now point to everything that goes on in the USA, thanks to the internet, and that’s sometimes incredibly helpful, but often the response is along the lines of that’s “over there”, and the attitude really is “shrug shoulders”, it’s not an issue here.

            • DeElizabethan

              Gosh that reminds me of what I read about people and the Nazi camps.

            • the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology is importnat to people on this board, sure. The Co$ being a threst to East Grinstead is decades old. The UK public, today, is better informed than the UK public was before South Park, but that’s not the period that EndoftheQ is talking about, as I understand it. EndoftheQ sounds about right, to me (but I’m no expert on what “people” do or do not know) and echoes the experience I had of protesting the Co$ in England in that period, make of that what you will.

            • endoftheQ

              I honestly don’t get the issue about this. It seems because we have Saint Hill, the whole of the UK must be aware of Dianetics and $cientology. As you said, Hare Krishna was big, thanks to The Beatles, ditto Transcendental Meditation. Hubbard didn’t have a high profile here, certainly the majority of people know about it now because of celebrities.

            • Graham

              “I honestly don’t get the issue about this.”

              Well in that case, shall we change the subject!?

            • endoftheQ

              By all means!

            • Robert Eckert

              Uh, you were the one who insisted on bringing it back up.

            • .. American celebs, not English.
              Although I have heard a person in the entertainment industry mention a quite prominent talk show host as a member.

            • ze moo

              East Grinstead is a small town with perhaps a population of 25k (2001 census). Throw in the missions and Idle mOrgs in the rest of the county and the clam presence is still quite small. It is proportionally nearly as small in the US. Yeah, they have a larger presence in California and Florida, but they are totally absent from huge parts of the US. The mission network has collapsed and the clampire is now giving away free ‘courses’ on its web site.

              As for the susceptibility of the general US population to scams like $cientology, yeah it is true. The US has a long history of such bullshit, but not in hugely higher numbers than in the UK. I blame and revere the Scots for teaching the rest of the UK what bullshit is.

              How was the Grand Canyon formed?

              A Scotsman lost a tenner down a rabbit hole

            • Robert Eckert

              Clearwater is only 100K, a similar size in proportion to the US.

          • Graham

            “We had a tiny little shop.”

            We also had (and still do have, for now at least) public libraries. My intro to $cientology was via a critical book I stumbled across in Crewe library back in the ’80s (I’m embarrassed to say I can’t remember which one, but it’s one of those which are still referred to today).

            Being at that time very involved in the New Age movement I also came across Dianetics, but didn’t think much of it. I don’t know how, but the absence of the internet didn’t stop me being aware of Paulette Cooper, Lisa McPherson, nor the destruction of the Cult Awareness Network.

            • endoftheQ

              I think the first critical book I read was Bare Faced Messiah. I think I got that from the library as well. 😉

            • Juicer77

              EoftheQ – May I be nosy and ask what your reaction was to Bare Faced Messiah? I’m a never-in but found it fascinating, and it was my first critical book as well.

            • endoftheQ

              I was gobsmacked. I’d previously bought into the belief that he’d actually had the life experiences he’d claimed to have.

          • Lurkness

            That’s LA. We have 50 states and Scientology is not in most of them. Where they are in a state, they are usually only in the major city, but pretty much unknown in that city. They are small here too–not really any different than the UK (or anywhere).

            As I said last night, Scientology has not been that well known and always small in
            numbers here as well. Indeed, ask the average Joe in the US about Scientology and they will think JT and JC too.

            The problem is that they punch well above their weight and are vicious and vindictive. Anon and South Park significantly raised awareness in a general way, but the vast majority of people in US are just as uniformed and uninterested as in the UK. Hence the need to keep trying to inform and educate about this malignancy.

            • Eclipse-girl

              That vicious and vindictive part is evidenced as to how the co$ went after ken Dander.

              I encourage people to read the article cited by Tony O (the blue link) and leave their comments.

            • endoftheQ

              What you tragically have that we don’t is really appalling atrocities, i.e. deaths, abortions, Snow White, the hole, Narconon, massive donations, celebrities, disconnection, endless vexatious litigation, etc. etc.

              That’s not the UK experience. It was a real uphill struggle pre-internet to get any information or be able to point out that $cientology was best avoided, because nothing like that happened here, excepting incidents at East Grinstead some 40+ years ago. It has only been the media exposure, such as celebrities celebrating it, John Sweeny’s breakdown, which was filmed in the USA, and the internet that the general UK public has any idea at all.

              Even now, the word $cientology often draws a “Tom Cruise” response, and if it is recognised, then it really is viewed as something that wealthy celebs do “over there”. As a resident of the Square Mile, I was horrified that the City of London Police and an Alderman appeared to be in their pocket at the launch of the i$teal Morgue and protested both, in writing, to be met with the usual “shrug shoulders” attitude. Fortunately, some of the nationals eventually picked it up, and the police at least were castigated for accepting favours.

              I happen to believe in celebrating anything negative appearing about $cientology UK, wherever it might appear. However, I’m actually gobsmacked at some of the reactions I’ve received here at the Bunker for pointing out actual facts. I haven’t got an any agenda, I’m not denying $cientology is bad, nor is this some bizarre show of superiority, a nation that manages to have 300 Jedi Knights to every $cientologist has nothing to feel superior about in my book.

              It isn’t that the UK didn’t fall for it, It just has never been heavily promoted here. Saint Hill or no Saint Hill.

            • Stacy

              I think what you’re saying, and what Chuck was saying about the differences in education in the UK and US tie together. Without highly developed critical thinking skills and the skepticism that goes with those skills, it’s easy to get attached to one position and forget that situations are always changing and because of that our ideas and opinions need to be too. I think an informed viewpoint comes from not allowing ideas or beliefs to become static. They should be as dynamic as life is. If critical thinking and skepticism were taught throughout school it would be easier to keep this in mind. When you learn critical thinking as an adult, it’s easy to fall back into old bad habits, because critical thinking takes a lot of work. I’m lucky that I’m in a job where I need it every day, otherwise I’d get mentally lazy too. In fact I probably do this for some topics.

              I think there’s validity in your point about the UK, and think it’s important to examine what this means in relation to the larger CoS picture. Partly I think it means that the UK will get to the point of “Scientology? What’s that?” well before the US does, but it’s still a long way off for both countries.

            • DeElizabethan

              I’d like to think ‘world’ here! Like a disease, it get eradicted one place and grows in another.

            • Stacy

              Very good point.

          • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

            London was a tiny little shop. St. Hill wasn’t as big as either Flag or PAC. And there were lots of Scientology businesses in Clearwater and L.A and some Scientology schools there too compared to the 1 Scientology school in East Grinstead. Scientology is significantly bigger in the US than in the UK.

            • DeElizabethan

              I see the point being that scientology uses the UK and St. Hill in their PR to get more money from members, let alone any new public. So doesn’t matter how big it actually is compared to others. It’s big in scientology and it’s promotion of it is for more $$$$. Therefore it is Very significant!

            • endoftheQ

              Exactly. However, trying to get anyone to believe $cientology is any kind of issue here is incredibly difficult. It’s had such a really low profile amongst the UK general public, no one here takes those points seriously, let alone believes they’re important. I can tell them the enormous PR value $cientology gets from Hubbard having squatted his fat arse in a faux castle in a small town outside of London, and that people in a couple of weeks will be flying in to pay homage, and they just say “so what?”.

            • DeElizabethan

              Why not educate them of the evil and abuses of the cult around the world? They might be interested, eh?

            • endoftheQ

              I and others certainly do try. I’ve protested, both in person and in writing, and will continue to do so, health permitting. I also currently maintain contact with a few that are still “in”. However, it’s even more of an uphill struggle if people make out like the whole of the UK is already aware that $cientology is massively bad news, that they must know the Holy Land of $cientology is Saint Hill and be knowledgable about incidents that happened 40+ years ago. It’s why I’m actually pathetically grateful if anyone is willing to write something even remotely negative about $cientology UK.

            • DeElizabethan

              Well, thanks. I didn’t get your being grateful from yesterdays post. I find the internet is the most useful tool for exposing this cult, wherever it may be.

            • Hyder Simpson

              I think you just pointed out why so many people have a problem with the Vice article. By emphasizing Scientology’s small size, the weak performance of its staff member and failing to mention the abuses, Hilton actually makes it harder for us to convince school administrators, law enforcement, politicians and the general public that Scientology and its front groups are dangerous. People who read that article are left with the impression that Scientology is just a side show curiosity, not a present day concern.

            • endoftheQ

              It was an op-ed piece, about what his experiences were with $cientology UK, and I was grateful that at least it was negative, if not as strongly so as one might wish. Unfortunately, that’s sadly the perception in the UK, that it’s an irrelevant sideshow, mainly something American celebrities get up to. I did genuinely find the orchestrated Nick Hilton “trashing” incredibly ugly and unwarranted. I can’t imagine he’ll ever want to write about $cientology again. In fact, he’ll probably dismiss anyone who mentions it as just another disaffected apostate. That said, after today, I’m not so surprised by some of the Bunker’s responses yesterday. If you look up to my original comment that started today’s howlfest, I didn’t say anything that wasn’t accurate, as others who have been or are in the UK have kindly confirmed. You can decide for yourself whether you think the vitriol that ensued was warranted or not. 😉

        • ehrm, while there certainly has been an absolutely high number (oh, thousands) of UK people directly involved historically, the general public may or may not be informed. As a long time protester (and resident in the UK), I would draw a lot of blank stares when protesting. Make of that what you will. There are far more Hare Krishna fanciers and quite a few more Jedi knights…

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            You would draw the same blank stares here!
            316,000,000 people in the US and MAYBE 15000 Scientologists?
            Do the math. Its not like they are crawling around under our beds.
            Especially considering they are all basically in LA and Clearwater.
            And half of them or more are imports.

        • RBE

          I just did a quick calculation and in the UK the number of scientologists per capita is only about three times less than in the USA. So yes, like you said, it is small everywhere, but not that much smaller in the UK. (And of course this is not that important anyway given Tony’s argument in his post yesterday about being in the tail end of membership…)

        • MrsLurksALot

          Okay, I haven’t been around a lot lately, but Sir Tim Berners-Lee is a computer dude, widely hailed as one of the inventors of the World Wide Web, apologies to Al Gore. I think EotQ was simply thanking him for making the Internet available?

          Waving hello and ducking at the same time….

          • Stacy

            Not sure you need to include the apology to Al Gore…

            • MrsLurksALot

              It made me giggle, what can I say?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Waves back.
            No need to duck.

          • Once_Born

            Tim Berners-Lee is the English “computer dude” who developed HTML (the script language upon which the ‘web depends) while working for the pan-European organisation CERN http://home.web.cern.ch/.

            He now heads the consortium that overseas the development of the web. http://www.w3.org/

            He is personally notabe for his refusal to try and patent or profit from this development.

            At CERN, many different nationalities work together in common cause. Sounds like a good idea…

            • MrsLurksALot

              He sounds like a very cool computer dude, indeed. His accomplishments are inspiring. Thanks for the info.

        • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

          Sorry, don’t want to step on anyone’s toes here but having been a Scientologist living in England for two decades I have to agree with endoftheQ. The UK Scientologists never had the numbers that the US had. Yes, Scientology is small everywhere but even more so in the UK than in the US. In addition the general UK public had never heard of the word Scientology whereas at least it seemed the majority of Americans seemed to know what the word meant.

          Yes, there were lots of Scientologists flocking to St. Hill in it’s heyday but a lot of them were from out of town.

          Being a Scientologist in England was grim compared to being a Scientologist in the US. And I’m making that statement having lived in both countries. I was in L.A at PAC during the 80’s, up until the end of 1990 and then went to St. Hill, England in mid 1991. It seemed there were about 1/5th maybe 1/4th the number of Scientologists at St. Hill than at PAC.

          The UK Scientolgoy Orgs, staff, and public were far worse off than the US as a whole. In terms of numbers of Scientologists and amount of money. The UK Orgs didn’t have the number of paying parishioners that the US Orgs had and therefore didn’t have the money that the US Orgs had.

          • Once_Born

            I walked past Plymouth (UK) Org on Friday. It was so crowded that the assembled Scientologists (seated in among two office desks and a large TV monitor) could hardly move. They really were shoulder-to-shoulder.
            There were nine (9) individuals there.
            They are behind with the rent.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              LOL. Sounds like a typical UK Org to me. Was that 9 staff or public or a mix? That would be really, really sad if it was a mix. If it was 9 staff I’d say they were upstat!

            • Once_Born

              I think that’s nine Scientologists altogether (in any case, it’s the most I’ve seen in one place this year).

              Normally when they are briefed like this on a Friday, the handcart (laden with copies of “Dianetics” and an e-meter) is due to be pushed around the corner to the city centre shopping area the following day.

              Christmas is coming, and the place will soon be crowded, so they may be hoping against hope for new recruits.

              The age profile is interesting, too. Median 40-50 and one bloke in his late 20s. Is this typical of other UK Orgs?

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              All the UK Orgs were small. About a dozen staff average for Sunderland, Plymouth, Brighton, Manchester but London had more – maybe three dozen for Foundation but about a dozen for Day. HAPI – (the one Scottish Org) averaged about 3. Bournemouth (mission) had a load and were booming at one point but then their top reg left and some public commited suicide and there was some documentary done on them and their stats crashed. When we arrived in Birmingham Org there were 3 staff and about 3 or 4 regular public that would come in daily. Birmingham grew to 60-80 staff but the other UK Orgs stayed the same. Birmingham is now back down to about a dozen staff – most part time.

              Yeah, median age seems average. Scientologists as a whole are usually 50-60 and their children 20-30.

            • Once_Born

              Thanks for that – I’ve estimated the active membership of Plymouth Org at about 12-15 and ageing. It’s good to get confirmation that I’m at least in the right area.

              This raises the question of who paid £1,000,000 for their new ‘ideal org’ (a redundant hotel they bought in 2010, which has been empty and rotting away ever since).
              http://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/plymouth-uk-ideal-org-a-reality-check-in-bricks-and-mortar/

              There must be a few UK ‘whales’…

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Sadly a lot of that it your average Joe remortgaging his house or taking out a loan. When I was in, my partner and I donated 20 grand to our Ideal Org – Birmingham. There are a few UK whales but maybe 5-10 and they’re concentrated down at St. Hill.

              I know a lot about numbers and stats because I was on the Birmingham OT Committee 2006-2009 which was like an Org for the public. I took the meeting minutes and then sent them out to all members. I later became the Deputy Chairman. My best friend, Jules was the OTC Registrar. I was around when money and “prospects” were being talked about. I knew who had what money or was capable of getting money and how much.

            • Once_Born

              Still – if we are generous, and credit Scientology in Plymouth with 20 seriously committed members, they would have had to have stumped up £50,000 each. These people are just not that prosperous.

              Where did the rest of the money come from, and how are they raising cash for Ideal Org ‘renovations’?

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              It’s not just from Plymouth staff and public. It will be from St. Hill Scientologists and other Scientologist from around the UK and Ireland. It may also be from European or American Scientologists. It’s possible that Miscavige even “loaned” them the amount like he did for Manchester, Sunderland, and London.

            • Once_Born

              Thanks – that makes better sense.

              It seems, then, that the ‘ideal org’ con is approaching its endgame here. Plymouth’s has been crumbling for nearly 5 years many of the others are in worse condition, and local councils are getting restive.

              The CofS can’t raise the money required to complete them – and even if they did, they would be deserted (you could not have chosen a worse location for Plymouth Ideal Org).

              However, they can’t sell these expensive buildings and cash in either – that would destroy all credibility with the membership. Worse yet, the policy regarding Ideal Orgs is devised by an increasingly erratic and out-of-touch David Miscavige.

              Interesting times.

            • endoftheQ

              It was a real jaw-drop moment for some of us, when we realised the huge amount of regging going on in the USA to fund i$teal Morgues. We’d just assumed that it would be the same as it was for London everywhere else.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              The IAS (Miscavige’s war chest) paid for the Ideal London Org. As did Madrid and San Francisco and others. Most major cities get paid for that way or at least “finished” that way otherwise it’s out of the pockets of Scientologists but saying that the IAS war chest is from Scientologists anyway but wasn’t specifically donated for Ideal Orgs.

            • endoftheQ

              I know for myself, and a few others, that’s when the million-dollar penny dropped, when we realised it was all about the money, and absolutely nothing else.

            • Stacy

              You don’t happen to remember who did the documentary on the Bournemouth mission, do you? That would be interesting.

            • Once_Born

              The documentary about the Poole org (which is in Bournemouth) was made by Ali Braund, who went undercover there for Calton TV in 1995.

              Watch and download here:
              http://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/scientology-inside-the-cult/

            • Stacy

              Awesome. Thank you so much OB.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Yep, that’s the one. Bournemouth mission in Poole, Dorset.

            • endoftheQ

              They appeared in Clapham Junction, just after the riots, dumped themselves and the tables outside Arding & Hobbs (Debenhams) and were universally ignored.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              BTW speaking of behind with the rent, I was nine years old when the bailiffs would walk right in to Birmingham Org and try and take what was due. We didn’t have anything other than an e-meter and some office supplies. The phone had been cut off and we couldn’t afford to heat the entire space, just the occasional room. My Godfather, Roger Ellory would usually get the bailiffs to leave but I’ll never forget the look on my mum’s face. Grim times.

            • Once_Born

              When you were 9? Some time ago, then – nearer to the ‘glory days’ when CofS membership and influence was nearer to it’s peak.

              Except with bailiffs, obviously.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              The international Scientology stats started crashing June 1991. The UK got a bit better during the mid 90’s up to early 2000s but then started crashing again. When we arrived in Birmingham in 1991 the UK was going through a bit of a depression and the housing market had crashed. When the economy picked back up so did the UK Scientology stats from my observation.

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            Good points.

            I noticed UK students I helped train were generally more inherently skeptical, and I took this all to mean the UK public generally were overwhelmingly less gullible compared to US public in general.

            I came to think the US public is more gullible since in USA more conning is legal.

            So in big strokes, I realized our media and helping get the truth of Scientology’s history to media was the only avenue to deal with the Scientology con that otherwise is acceptable in the USA’s more generally entrepreneurial religious smorgasbord atmosphere.

            The Columbia University Encyclopedia definition of Scientology to me was the pinnacle course room dictionary definition of Scientology that always brought up LRH’s science fiction writer history and it mentioned the Xenu story!

            Some US top level thinkers always never bought the Scientology fraud con religion.

            New York Review of Books with articles by Martin Gardner who wrote “Fads and Fallacies” in the 1950s which labeled Hubbard as a crank, is the long range view that I later came to think is how the general public in the UK think of Scientology.

            And the Russell Miller book and John Sweeney book both just have that underlying complete dismissive attitude towards the crank Hubbard “religion”. Both are UK media people.

            And appropriate to this thread, what Xenu story means, is important.

            Members, we never are taught that Xenu is just the guy who caused the 4th Dynamic Engram.

            It takes really some years for a non OT 3 ex Scientologist to simply realize Xenu caused the 4th Dynamic Engram.

            Engrams are what Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health were all about.

            LRH was lambasted for the ridiculous and obvious crank concentration on pre-natal engrams.

            LRH is rightfully continued to be lambasted for thinking that the Xenu engram (4th dynamic engram) caused body thetans that need exorcism today on OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

            And Scientologists more so in the UK get the ridiculous nature of Scientology’s beliefs, and how the beliefs prove how unlikely this Scientology con spiritual improvement is actually doing anything.

            I’ve thought the UK general population of kids got better educations, they are more literate, have larger vocabularies, and generally read and understand history and the world better.

            The US public I’ve taken to generally be stuck with the religion ignorance/toleration of ridiculous theory of the cosmos (heaven, hell, etc.).

            Scientology goes science fiction about heaven and hell (engrams are our hells, and auditing is the spiritual practice to get that hell out of our minds, though Ron didn’t get all his body thetans out of his head before he died this lifetime, per Marty’s book chapter 24 and per Lawrence Wright’s book final 3 pages).

            • Stacy

              I think you’re generalizing about the overall poorer education of kids in the US. Depending on the scho district, some kids are getting stellar educations. I do think anything resembling critical thinking has been removed from our elementary and high schools, and that is a serious problem.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              There are things in life not properly even taught.

              Like, my complaint is no one says our world is ongoing imperfect, and Scientology as a subject, their official movement behavior is one issue that brings up what I think is something kids OUGHT to rightfully think the world just hasn’t it together to be allowing a group like Scientology get away with what it gets away with!

              Parents who don’t know better let their kids get into Scientology, for instance, or those adults who fall prey to Scientology themselves have that right to do so, and that’s a problem.

              Scientology’s right to spew their delusion is protected.

              And in the US, the media seems to be the only real sensible societal body. (and the publishers who do books of ex members and of the authors who now seem no longer challenged).

              This blog’s articles, especially how Dandar is now facing ruination at Scientology’s legalistic “win” against him on paper, shows the absurdity and is an F in my opinion about unintended bad consequences for letting cults have the right to practice their delusion legally and ruin lawyers defending people who complain that Scientology pretty directly led to a woman’s death!

              School disctricts that let the Lisa McPherson history be retold, good for them!

              I feel bad for Dandar, and the only people who get respect are the media like Joe Childs and Tony who report Scientology’s bad.

              At least all the rest books in the last 15 years critical of Scientology aren’t being fought legally tooth and nail, and only Dandar is screwed, I so wish Scientology would forgive this legalistic disgraceful win against Dandar and show some religious like behvaior for him.

            • Stacy

              It’s weird to think ahead, possibly 100 years, and consider CoS might be in the history books as an example of one of the weird, whacky, & criminal “new religious movements” of the 20th/ 21st Centuries (though I’m with you- CoS is a cult, plain and simple. Sometimes we take PC way too far). Frankly, it would suck for Hubbard to get that much recognition, period. Maybe for that reason, it would be better if it wasn’t remembered at all. That doesn’t work either, though, as it’s a slap in the face of the thousands who’ve suffered so horribly because of Hubbard, CoS, and Miscavige.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              It’d be so easy for them to behave admirably, and instead get noticed for reversing their vindictive anti “enemies” hated behavior. They could send Dandar a letter forgiving him the penalty, for instance. It’d be so easy for Scientology to act decently.

            • Stacy

              I’ve thought about that a lot over the past few weeks. Why not just clean up their act? The Xenu story and the body thetans aren’t any wackier than some of the other new age religions. They’d certainly do better than they are now. So why not? Is it really because of LRH insisting nothing he wrote be changed or superseded? That seems like just an excuse to me. I’m sure those you who know more about this than me (everyone!) have an opinion on this. I’d love to hear them.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              Why don’t they act decently and just be honest about it all, you ask?

              A summary review of all of Martin Gardner’s points about cranks in his book “Fads and Fallacies” should be laid out to answer that question.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              The British people as a whole seem to be more sensible than their American cousins. BTW I’m not slagging off Americans, I am American myself, as are my parents, partner and children but from my observation the British people tend to be a bit more skeptical and less gullible. Also of note they tend to be less extreme than Americans. They tend to be more balanced. For example all the crazy shit that goes on in Scientology in America goes on in Britain but just a little less so, just slightly more reserved.

            • Eivol Ekdal

              It’s a tradition for Brits to keep the weirdness in the closet.

            • ze moo
            • Truthiwant

              This is what I think as well. However, the cancer is also there in the UK, but a little less so than how it has managed to spread in the US. It is always contained, whether in the US or the UK, within small pockets of society, but it is destructive all the same.

            • Once_Born

              Perhaps the fact that the UK is, for all intents and purposes, a secular society makes a difference to Scientology. Religious cloaking is ineffective in a culture where hardly anyone even pays lip service to religion any more.

            • Truthiwant

              Great post, Chuck.

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            Mareka,

            Do you listen to BBC Radio 4?

            I do, and love it’s programming and generally well spoken and much cleaner thinking than any of the US media outlets.

            Chuck Beatty

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              I don’t listen anymore but I have done. Might take it up again 🙂

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              I find US news shows just that – shows. They speak loudly AT you instead of just softly informing you of what is going on. I find it really hard to listen to or watch.

        • joan nieman

          I am with you on that comment Bury.

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          You mean it’s NOT the same as Christian Science? and one other these to top it off 😉

        • Jon Atack

          I’m a Brit! And I’d love to know how to ‘irradicate’ something – eradicating it by radiation, maybe? But, yes, Scientology was just a few thousand people until the Victorian State Inquiry put it on the map – followed by panic reactions throughout the English speaking world and enough of a media show to up recruitment into the tens of thousands. I doubt that there have ever been more than 100,000 active members. As the UK survey showed, there are just over 2000 people here who professed Scn as there faith in the 2011 Census. But many people have heard about it, and that was the case even before South Park. It has always surprised me that the majority of people have some knowledge of it. I’m happy to say that they usually have it tagged as something bad.

      • Observer

        Is your point that the British are better and smarter than Americans? I’ve known a few who feel that way, but none who have been so aggressive about continually hammering at it or constantly reminding me that they are British.

        Of course there are fewer British Scientologists. Britain has what, 1/5 the population of the US? Score one for Britain. However, despite the population gap Britain has a larger number of radicalized Islamist citizens of both immigrant ad British ancestry fighting for ISIS than the US has. Nor have we had Islamists carving people up in the street (subject to change, of course). Score one for the US.

        Or is your belief, as with our conversation about British whales a few days ago, that the only true Britons are those who are of “pure” ancestry?

        The point is that one British citizen of whatever ancestry sucked in, deceived, fleeced and enslaved is too many. One American citizen sucked in, deceived, fleeced and enslaved is too many. One citizen of any country sucked in, deceived, fleeced and enslaved is too many. I will rejoice just as much for Scientology’s obliteration in Britain as I will for the US, Australia, South Africa, everywhere.

        I am here to support the effort against Scientology, wherever it may be. I am here to give moral support to exes, without judgment or condemnation of their membership and things done while in, whatever their level of decompression is or experience has been.

        I’m going to come right out and say it: the regulars here know that this is a very uncharacteristic post for me, but I feel it must be said. You do not express yourself like any British person I have ever known, with your rudeness and American idioms and very non-Britishly inelegant jabs, nor do you sound like anyone here who has spent any time in Scientology. As with anything I post, I could be wrong, but I wouldn’t be saying it if I didn’t have good reason to believe it.

        Prove you are who and what you say you are and I’ll eat my words and sincerely apologize. Otherwise, I will not interact with you further. Feel free to have the last word.

        • Truthiwant

          I don’t know where endoftheQ is coming from. As I said yesterday, I respect his/her opinions, because that is called free speech. However, he/she seems to have a bee in the bonnet about saying that Scientology is non existent in England.

          I’m finding it hard to understand the point of this argument.

          Why does somebody have to compare what Scientology is in one country to what it is in another?

          Even if there is just one mission in some small country in the world, is that not enough to admit that there is a potential danger from Scientology? To say that Scientology is next to nothing in England is not true. It does exist, in a very small way nationally, but in quite a large way within certain areas. Saint Hill is a landmark for Scientology. People come there from all over the world, because it was Ron’s home. Ron Hubbard died 28 years ago, but people still make a pilgramige to Saint Hill.

          Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me that England is still a strong-hold for Scientology, however small it is today.

          • Observer

            Agreed. Scientology is destructive wherever and in what numbers it is.

        • endoftheQ

          No. As I said below, “I haven’t got an any agenda, I’m not denying $cientology is bad, nor is this some bizarre show of superiority, a nation that manages to have 300 Jedi Knights to every $cientologist has nothing to feel superior about in my book.”

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Thank tou.
          Please teach me how to be on point and articulate!

          • DeElizabethan

            Me too Observer.

          • Observer

            What makes me angry about people who come here pretending to be ex Scientologists and they’re not, or who pretend to have lost relatives to Scientology and they haven’t, is that it dishonors and disrespects all of those who survived Scientology and have overcome the obstacles that Hubbard put in their way, as well as those who suffer every day from the absence and/or disconnection of loved ones.

            • grundoon

              Yes.

              Once burned, twice shy.

              Whenever a troll causes a fuss and gets ejected, for the next few days the troll detectors are on hair trigger, primed to fire at anything that moves.

              On such occasions, innocents who venture near the perimeter sometimes have shots fired in their direction. Some flee in puzzlement. Some, like iBetty, are tough cookies and stand up to the fire, and go on to acclaim as bunkeroos in good standing. (A couple of weeks ago it was Bury who was the target, on the heels of Flunk’s latest banning.)

              Real trolls and infiltrators are armored against the heaviest fire. They feed on our upset. They’re immune to reason or verbal attacks. Only Tony can stop them.

              Newcomers bring strange customs and don’t know our ways. They don’t know how to Hearsay. Suspect them! They could be in league with Captain Blackheart.

              Or on the other hand, make them welcome and cut them some slack. Posers and charlatans will eventually slip up and expose themselves.

            • Why does your account keep getting reset? The handle “Grundoon” is old, but this account has only six comments

            • grundoon

              It resets whenever I restart my browser. It’s a big nuisance. (Blows raspberry at Disqus.)

            • Observer

              This one already has. I will not comment further.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              sigh… I probably will continue to comment.

              I wish ( like many of you do), that I had an off switch…but alas….NOT!!!

            • grundoon

              Cool.

              I think it’s great that we each can comment or not, as we see fit. Thanks Tony!

              I enjoy an appreciate your comments, Obs, almost always. And if I don’t, I can say what I think. (Tony, again, thanks!) Sure beats being in a cult.

            • Observer

              Yep. And I’d be a hypocrite if I could dish out criticism but not take it. Ha!

            • Stacy

              Ok, I’ve seen many of you mention hearsay, and I know what the noun means, this is obviously not what you’re referring to. One poster even told me to google hearsay. I found Hearsay social, a software thing. I also found An app that makes up nonsense words and phrases. This doesn’t seem right either. I would appreciate it if someone could please steer me in the right direction? If there are mistakes I’m making as a newbie that Hearsay will help me with, I’m willing to check it out.

            • Stacy

              La la la

            • Vaquera

              Hearsay is slang for google.

            • Stacy

              So weird. Where the hell have I been for the past decade that I didn’t know that? I don’t even have the excuse of being a newcomer to computers or the Internet, or of having been trapped in CoS. Sheesh. This is so the time to make jokes. Preferably sheep jokes

            • grundoon

              Hearsay is the innest of in-jokes among the Bunker crowd. In court one day, in a Scientology case we’ve all been following, someone mentioned Google. One of the Scientology lawyers, scraping to raise any objection, was overheard whispering to another: “Google is hearsay, isn’t it?” From that moment, at the Bunker, Google has been Hearsay. Now you know the secret handshake, you’re an insider! Welcome!

            • Stacy

              Lol thank you! ☺️

            • Stacy

              Well, at least it’s only locally known slang. Still feeling very sheepish

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              You are like the Bunkers own rainman….erm, rainwoman with finding these references. Amazing!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Ditto. I hate liars… and I hate fakes.
              I also know how common those two things truly are.
              At least with the majority of the Bunkerites………You get reality. Warts and all.
              I would rather be known for my faults than a false front.

              But then, Grant Cardone has never been my role model.
              😉

        • grundoon

          endoftheQ’s observations have been backed up by Mareka. Mareka’s credentials are beyond question, she is certainly no OSA op, and knows the UK scene very well as she and her family were key participants. So I see no need to demand personal disclosures from endoftheQ.

          In the bad old days, wherever one ex-Scientologist met another online, sooner or later they would begin to acrimoniously sec-check each other. It could happen right away, or after years of seeming to be net buddies, but eventually it would happen. It might blow up into a teapot orgy of gang-bang sec checking. You’d think they were long out of the cult and had regained their sanity, then BAM! (Equally inevitable was that every person on the forum would be accused, sooner or later, of working for OSA. Not accused yet? … you’re a noob.)

          In recent years, things seem to have changed for the better. I rarely see ex’s or indies sec-check each other anymore.

          What’s weird is, these days it always seems to be the never-ins who start the sec-checking.

          No sec checks please, we’re British! (ducks)

          • endoftheQ

            Priceless. 😉

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Grundoon….I really like and respect you……but I think you have been wrong twice now lately because you aren’t seeing the entire picture.
            My two cents. Take it as you will.

            • grundoon

              Thanks, Bury. I am wrong sometimes. Maybe this time too.

              If you’re referring to Ethics Officer, I simply stated my opinion based on what I had seen of his conversations: at worst a waste of space, with an occasional hopeful venture into seemingly honest dialogue which might go further. Beyond this I have made no defense of Ethics Officer. (As you point out, I might not have seen the entire picture, if that includes whatever he may have said “back-channel,” or on old dead threads out of sight.) I expressed my view that telling Tony’s guests how they can and cannot speak on Tony’s site, and ordering them to leave if they don’t toe the line, are Tony’s prerogatives, and it is poor form for guests to take such authority upon themselves. (And futile, since we guests have no enforcement powers.) So where was I wrong? (You may take this as a rhetorical question if you don’t feel like saying more.)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Seriously? I overstep my bounds like……….um……….all the time. So I can’t speak to boundaries. But I am talking about nuances.
              You are one of my favorite and most revered posters….
              Seriously!
              In all honesty…I can’t even believe I have the audacity to even barely backtalk you….

              However….I am a bit pedantic about snooping into the weeds.
              And I don’t think you saw the whole picture.
              I could be wrong. (I am regularly).
              I did feel you blasted Cars in a way that was not quite fair. This is my opinion.

              And as far as endoftheQ goes.

              I have NO apologies.
              Something is fishy here.
              I almost did a count on how many times he/she told us she was a brit?
              Seriously?
              Who does that?
              I won’t even point out the other bullshit. If you read the posts……….you will see the landscape for exactly what it is. I have faith in that.

              It reeks of bullshit.
              Just my opinion.

              And YOU pay attention to the nuances regarding endoftheQ! I defy you to re read those posts and not find the same “theme” that I do. And I do not even have to go into the details to help you find it.

            • grundoon

              Bury, I’ve observed that you have phenomenal memory and powers of observation. You’ve spotted trolls and fakes with uncanny speed and accuracy. You’re up there with Howdy at the top of the league — not 100%, but pretty darn good. So I don’t dare argue.

              But I think this time you might be too hot on the trigger. I’ll just have to wait and see.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Fair enough.

            • endoftheQ

              In my eyes you’re not a troll hunter, you’ve become the troll.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              😉

            • grundoon

              By the way, it seems I was right about Bob of the North by Northwest avatar.

          • Why the sudden upswing in “never-in” bashing? Just curious?

            • grundoon

              I don’t think I’ve bashed anyone, not bunkeroos anyway. (Take that, Captain Blackheart! *bash*) If you look back over the Bunker’s history of posters interrogating one another, I think you’ll find that my observation is factual.

            • Stacy

              I did not feel bashed as a never-in by your comment. But I’m in a very good mood today

            • I think what we have is a culture clash here. Some of us are skeptics by nature so we don’t see anything wrong with asking hard questions or not taking things “on faith”. This can seem rude to non-skeptics even though it is not meant that way.
              Others here are believers and creatures of faith and hope. They accept a lot of things at face value and are often happier for it. They can seem dim and unrealistic to skeptics even though they may not be.
              I enjoy the bunker because it has historically been populated by more skeptical people. They are hard to find in great numbers IRL.
              I like to follow Scientology because I can relate on a personal level (having myself grown up in a religious cult) but my main satisfaction comes from academically examining what I consider to be one of the most extreme modern (and still existing) examples of a cult. I think it offers insight into all religions, political movements and other forms of groupthink.
              I don’t like to visit blogs like Marty’s or Rinder’s or message boards like ESMB because there is too much “everbody gets to think and say whatever they want and not get judged on it” for my taste. If someone says something incorrect or illogical, I want to call them on it.
              WWP is too vitriolic for me and until recently the bunker had fit just right. I loved it here. Truly.
              I guess because the reporting is based on facts and investigation I assumed the readership would respect that skeptical sensibility as the ultimate governing principle in the comments rather than “niceness”.
              If it stops being a skeptics haven, I will eventually try and find a new one. That is not a threat or pout just a reality I know about my character.
              Also, I don’t like being called a cow or having it insinuated that I am ugly 🙁

            • grundoon

              Some people post here anonymously. There are many valid reasons why someone might want to be anonymous here. Bad reasons too, but the reasons are really none of our business. Pumping someone for personal information that might “out” the person, or might enable OSA to connect the dots and identify an anonymous poster or someone connected to them, is unfriendly and might cause actual harm. Skepticism, curiosity or mere suspicion does not make it ok. On many sites, outing someone, or trying to, is a banning offence (although Tony has announced no such rule here as far as I know). It’s up to each person to present themselves how they want, and reveal as much or little about themselves as they consider safe.

              Outing someone might be ok in some cases, I think — Like if someone knows that a poster is OSA chief Linda Hamel, or someone’s real-life stalking ex-husband, or the return of someone already banned.

              My opinions on anonymity and outing, of course, don’t have to be followed or even respected by anyone else here. All I can do is speak up and ask people to reconsider. And I can let newcomers know that they need not submit to interrogation.

              As for skepticism, I think the Bunker is a great place for all kinds of people to engage in honest dialogue about Scientology. To put an end to the abuse, and to assemble a truthful account of Scientology’s history and consequences, we need people who have been in Scientology to tell what they have seen and done, what has been done to them, what the consequences have been, and what they think of it now looking back. For this, skeptical questioning can be immensely helpful and vitally important. And we need skeptical questioning to make sense of events.

              If skeptics retreat from the world and speak only to others of precisely equal skepticism, they’ll change no minds and have little impact. Again, if they’re so militantly skeptical that nobody will engage with them, they’ll open no minds and have little impact.

              What’s really needed is a lively dialogue along a spectrum of all degrees of skepticism, informed by actual events and not just theory. It happens every day in the Bunker. (Thanks, Tony!)

              Nat, I think you’ve come to the right place. Welcome!

            • “Blah blah blah blah — I’m grundoon and I like to hear myself talk and act like I am more patient and wiser than anyone else — blah de blah frickin’ blah”

            • grundoon

              Can we go back to talking about Scientology now?

            • endoftheQ

              Sorry, @grundoon, you had to take that because of me.

            • grundoon

              Lots of folks enjoy a jolly beverage with their Saturday night surfing. It can get a bit lively at times.

            • endoftheQ

              If you don’t like crap being served back at you, then don’t dish it out in the first place. In my eyes, you and a few others are acting like little high school bullies ganging up on the new kids. I honestly don’t give a damn myself but I dread to think how your pathetic snippy bitchfests might affect someone else that’s new and who’s sensitive. Take a good look at the my original comment above, that others have confirmed is entirely accurate and is based on my own personal experiences. I hope those of you dripping venom in the subsequent responses are madly proud of yourselves.

            • SHUT UP! Quit acting like you are trying to help or protect anybody. Just shut up.

            • endoftheQ

              Yup, you make my point for me, perfectly.

            • grundoon

              “I don’t like being called a cow or having it insinuated that I am ugly :(”
              Whoever said that, give them a slap with a wet fish. Give them an eye exam. Give them what for.

            • endoftheQ

              Wet fish? Aunt Agatha always uses a dried eel… 😉

        • Captain Howdy

          This person has over 800 comments but I just noticed their presence recently. What’s up with that? Perhaps if they took their comments off private for like 10 minutes that might help. I’d be willing to do the same of course.

            • endoftheQ

              Aw, they caught your good side.

            • Go fuck yourself and then implode. Thanks.

            • endoftheQ

              I don’t feel the need to copy something that’s already been done, so well, by you.

            • That doesn’t even make any sense, you dimwit.

            • endoftheQ

              It might, if you got your meds. right.

            • Cheap shot and all the meds in the world wouldn’t help me understand your motivations.

            • endoftheQ

              I doubt anyone understands your hissy conniptions, including yourself.

            • Truly, you baffle me.

            • endoftheQ

              Bye, Felicia.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I had a feeling u got it !

            • I just know something is up. What should be respected about our “spidey senses” when it comes to these things is the emotional toll the lengthy 26 thing had on this place. I was just a daily lurker back then but it sucked to be played like that.

            • richelieu jr

              I’ve been around for a bit, Nat.. What was the ’26’ thing? I think I know most of the bog scandals, but I’ve never heard this figure before…

            • richelieu jr

              I’m not sure… Oh wait, the ’26’ is because of the date? Because that Monkey knickers KnutJob I remember all too well…
              So glad we didn’t ring int he new year crying over her unborn (read: non-existent) children.
              What a piece of work!

            • grundoon

              We were badly fooled. We’re still sore about it. And to this day, we take it out on newcomers who had nothing to do with it. They can become collateral damage on nothing more than a hunch.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Yep, collateral damage sucks. And so does………………

            • Don’t patronize me or give me thinly veiled advice — unlike others I don’t find you wise or charming. Leave off already.

            • grundoon

              Nobody is forcing you to read my posts. I’ll post as I choose. You are not the only one reading here. And I thought my advice was very clear – if you thought it was veiled, I’ll have to try harder. Read it or not, your choice. I enjoy your posts, btw.

          • endoftheQ

            I comment elsewhere, for example http://d.pr/DDVO

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Thank you for the juxtoposition of your semantics darlin.
              😉

          • grundoon

            You can google: endoftheq site:tonyortega.org
            It’s how I find my old comments. A bit of a nuisance because google only takes you to the top of the article and then you have to open up the comments and search for the name using Ctrl+F (windows) or Command+F (Mac).

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            “This person has over 800 comments but I just noticed their presence recently. What’s up with that?”

            Um………..Don’t make me come to Boston……
            Just Sayin!!!!

        • endoftheQ

          You’re personally welcome to call me in London, at your own convenience. You may also reverse the charges. Fair enough? OK, your call. 😉

          • Observer

            I would never ask anyone to put any kind of personal information up here, or give personal information to me, no matter who I thought they were. I said that badly, and for that I apologize. At the risk of bringing more scorn upon my head, more detailed answers to questions about your time in Scientology and at Saint Hill is what I meant, and would go a long way toward making me eat crow. So far your answers to those questions have been vague in the extreme, except for how many British Scientologists there are/were.

            • endoftheQ

              No problem. I was going to suggest you get a disposable email address, post that here and I’d email you my phone number. I have a second line, that isn’t billed to me, for exactly this purpose. OK, if you published it, I’d be stuck with changing the number. I did explain a while back, the reason I’m not publishing details or my actual name is simply because I’m genuinely concerned about a couple of people who are still in, one who is in a really dire situation. If I go public here, then being able to communicate with them is more than likely to end.

            • Observer

              Trust me, I would never publish anyone’s personal anything here under any circumstances, and I do mean ANY circumstances. But I don’t want personal info anyway, so it’s moot.

              I’m not asking for details which would personally identify you. Surely there are specific events which were witnessed and participated in by many people, or general information such as details about the grounds and life and Saint Hill, what was going on in Scientology at the time you were there, etc.

              I do want to believe you are genuine, but honestly there are so many coincidences and resemblances that I’m finding it difficult. If the circumstances surrounding the previous incident hadn’t been so painful for so many people, I would never have said anything.

            • endoftheQ

              I have heard this from other people here, that I’m a previous poster returned, and I’m not aware of the incident you mention. I’m not a previous poster in disguise, and I can only say that I’ve offered you the chance to speak to me, so you can personally confirm I’m not. If you would like to nominate someone else, again no probs. I’d be more than happy with that.

              OK, at the risk of another huge avalange of insults, $cientology really is tiny here. I can’t be sure that something I think is safe to mention, won’t identify me in some way. Also, I’m not sitting on some huge $cientology secret that I’m gagging to reveal. I’m a $ideliner, nothing more.

              Look at this way, has anything I’ve said been contradicted by other UK Bunkerites? No. The trolling of me, big woop, but that of other people that weren’t even defending me but just saying maybe give me the benefit of the doubt, is actually hideous.

              If you are that wary of me, fine, don’t engage. I won’t engage you. Deal?!

            • Observer

              I have already said I would not engage you further, but I did feel obligated to clarify what I meant and, given your civil response, explain why I said what I did. The accuracy of your statements about the number of British Scientologists is irrelevant to my caution. I have told you what would it would take for me to publicly eat my words (which I would gladly do, because anything would be better than the return of the person in question), none of which require you to reveal anything personal about yourself. Regardless of your decision concerning that, I have said what I had to say and will not speak further.

            • endoftheQ

              No probs.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      Truthiwant, I have a question if I may.

      Were you embarrassed being asked about your involvement with scientology because you already had strong doubts or were the two things seperate?

      • Truthiwant

        I was embrassed because I knew that the subject of Scientology was not accepted by practically everybody who is not a Scientologist. You will never hear non-Scientologists saying things like “Oh, that’s interesting, you’re a Scientologist. Please tell me more, I’m so very interested.”
        This was perhaps one of the main factors for having so many doubts. If Scientology was so f—-ing incredible, then WHY was everybody else against it. Not only that, I found it impossible to talk intelligently about Scientology to a non.Scientologist, not that it is much more intelligent when talking about it to another Scientologist!

        • HappypantsDance

          Thank you so much for your story above and this reply to Hillie. I find it quite telling that you were embarrassed to admit you were a Scientologist. You were in that “believe but don’t know” limbo time we can all find ourselves in: believing something’s “off” and knowing it’s “off” are two very different things, of course. Your course could have been very different had your ego taken over. Fortunately, your Higher Self did!

        • flexible

          Truth.. I also.. To this very day…after over 32 years of being out.. am embarrassed to say I was ever involved. Because I know that it is viewed by everyone not involved as a crazy cult. In all those years being out of it.. I have brought it up to maybee 5 people. People whom I knew wouldn’t judge me. And after the years spent in.. and having to basically disconnect from my family THEY were the ones who welcomed me back without judgement or pointing fingers. Love is an amazing healer.

          • .. which is why love/compassion is looked down on the the Co$. (Well, OK, the word love is used a lot, but “where is love on the tone scale?”)

          • Stacy

            You and Truth, and all other ex-scientologists- you have absolutely NOTHING to feel embarrassed about. Anyone making you feel embarrassed is the one with the problem- lacking compassion, an unwillingness to learn, etc.

            Life is learning and learning often involves making mistakes, sometimes huge ones. I’d say you guys have learned a lot more about life than many people ever do.

            Thanks for sharing your stories. They provide a lot to the overall picture of CoS. Now CoS has a lot to be embarrassed about!

          • grundoon

            ISTR that Marty Rathbun never mentioned Scientology to Monique until he had to explain why they had PIs snooping around.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              I am not so sure about this. I thought he was doing some auditing prior to the squirrel busters arrival.

    • Once_Born

      This is how the problem appears to me, As a ‘never in’. I may be talking rubbish – or I may provide an alternative perspective. Either way, I would be interested in what ‘exes’ think.

      A lot of ex-scientologists describe the first time that they went online, read the material there, and experienced a complete change of perspective. They remember this as the point that they ‘lost faith’.

      However, Just to visit sites that were not ‘CofS approved’, let alone read the ‘entheta’ there requires a prepared mind – you must already have serious doubts (which you may not ever be consciously aware of) before you can engage with the critical material online. After all, that material was there for years, before you dared to read it.

      This speaks to the question raised today – what approach undermines belief in Scientology in the first place? What is it that prepares a Scientologists’ mind to read critical material instead of ignoring it, or rationalising it away.

      I think this depends on each individuals’ motivation for entering (and sticking with) Scientology. When people join, they seem to enter an ‘alternative reality’ where a variety of good motives are re-defined so as to serve Scientology. For example, if you joined for idealistic reasons – to make the world a better place – you may come to believe that anything which protects or advances the CofS is by definition good for the world.

      From the outside, this is obviously not so, but those ‘inside the bubble’ are strongly discouraged from entertaining the slightest doubt (a rational process which is re-defined as ‘suppressive’) and isolated, as far as possible, from outside influence. Even public Scientologists who cannot be literally locked away like the Sea Org, are encouraged to police their own thoughts (and confess doubts as if they were crimes).

      To plant seeds of doubt in a Scientologists, you probably first need to have time to talk to them in a relaxed environment (away from Scientology) where they feel safe. This is, of course, one of the reasons why the CofS is so desperate for members to spend all their free time serving the Org among the like-minded.

      If the subject comes up, ask why they joined – what did they hope to achieve, and what progress have they made towards that goal? Open, non-judgemental, questions. Outside of the bubble the ‘gains and wins’ that seemed so impressive are going to fall very flat indeed.

      This seems very half-hearted – however, a confrontational approach is counter-productive. It drives people deeper into the rationalisations that they use to hold back their doubts, and deeper into the Scientology bubble – it even confirms some of the things that they have been told by the CofS – for example, that the ‘wog’ world is corrupt and out to bring them down to its level.

      The fact is, no matter how carefully you present the case against Scientology, some people are going to retain the faith no matter what. This is not a failure – people are entitled to their own beliefs.

      All that is to be done in this case is to work against the organisation that is exploiting them. My aim is not to convert everyone to my point of view, but to end the abuses of power comitted by the CofS. If groups of Independent Scientologists want to continue auditing each other, that’s fine by me, as long as they do no harm, nor break the law.

      Finally, many people have been disillusioned by the greedy ‘fund-raising’
      and the obvious disparity between the claims of the leadership (massive
      expansion) and observable reality (empty orgs, and crumbling ideal
      orgs), but this is a relatively recent phenomenon.

      This is an apparent gift to critics. However, when an outsider draws attention to these failures, their sheer scale makes it difficult not to appear to be exaggerating or mocking. To my mind, the best questions are: “What did you hope to achieve when you joined the CofS” and “What have you achieved since then?”

      • Techie

        L Ron Hubbard once referred to an anecdote about the Soviet Russians. He said something like they would not accept any criticism of their regime or Communism but would readily admit that they had an inefficient bureaucracy. It is quite similar with a true-blue Scientologist, he won’t even hear your arguments about the validity of Scientology but if you talk about impact on society, number of auditors made, success of local organizations they may listen. Or you could just talk about how they are doing, have they achieved their goals. The myth many Scientologists labor under is that their personal situation is bad but somewhere else it is better – Portland Org is a wasteland but LA Org must be doing OK. We can’t get enough money in to buy food in the Big Blue complex but “over the rainbow” at Gold it must be steak dinners and 4 star deserts. It’s always better somewhere else. I am not sure how to get around this, especially with the constant propaganda “events” that paint everything a pretty sky blue.

        • Once_Born

          “The myth many Scientologists labor under is that their personal situation is bad but somewhere else it is better”

          Psychologists call this situation “pluralistic ignorance”. It is also apparent when Scientologists share ‘success stories’. The person who is delivering any given story may have serious internal doubts. However, he has heard other people describe their ‘gains and wins’ and thinks that he is the only one who does not get it. Perhaps if he just pretends, and sticks with the programme for a lottle longer, it will all come right. Of course, everyone has doubts but dare not express them because they think they are the odd man out.

          http://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/understanding-the-scientology-mindset-pt-5-pluralistic-ignorance/

          I don’t know how to get around this, either – press coverage of the growing number of blighted buildings which have been awaiting ‘renovation’ as ideal orgs might help but, as you say, the true believers will likely dismiss this as SP propaganda.

          The only opportunities to reach individual Scientologists come when they participate in wider society. Judging by the numerous measures designed to keep people isolated in a ‘Scientology bubble’ which are build into the organisation of the CofS this is what Hubbard feared the most.

          I suppose the lesson is that, if you know a Scientologist, engage with them. Don’t confront them, but don’t humour them either. Show them that there is a different perspective, and rely on the fact that yours is more reasonable than the inherently bizarre world-view created by Hubbard.

          • MaxSpaceman

            That’s very difficult to achieve, OB, engaging in a discussion of any different perspective with a friend and/or colleague who is a practicing cherch scientologist. You may have seen Sweeney’s documentary piece where he’s speaking with the trotted-out Celebs in L.A., Archer and that bunch? How ‘fervent’ they appear. (And defensively hostile.) Well, sans hostility it’s the same experience: the friend/colleague who is practicing scientology is a zealot, a fervent believer, and a herald seeing if they can get you into the Org for some introductory Div 6, and not listen to your crummy wog ideas about zip. It was like being with a friend/colleague who is deep into selling/marketing Amway. Pure zealotry. I tried for 2 years, throughout that time, to reach my friend/colleague (we were producing music for publishing companies, lots of sessions, lots of people) and not once was I able to get a “show my friend a different perspective” moment. I found the encounters akin to what it must be like for anyone to try to sway the ‘certainty’ of a Creationist with the more reasonable notion of evolution.

            • Once_Born

              I’m not suggesting it’s easy – and in most cases you will probably fail. However, the fact that there are people commenting here who were influenced by outsiders to question their faith shows that it is worth a try.

              I think that the best chance you have of shifting someone’s perspective is when they are in a everyday social situation, away from the psychological ‘support mechanism’ that requires they adopt the attitudes that they have been taught to adopt as a Scientologist.

              The social situation is everything. This is why the CofS is so careful to prevent people stepping outside of the bubble and interacting with non-scientologists on equal terms.

              Again – you will probably fail. One day, though, you may be in the right place at the right time – and say the right things in the right way. Here’s hoping.

        • Robert Eckert

          “4 star deserts” Excellent typo!

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          They (existing Scientologists) can’t complain to media about disconnection being wrong or even go to media, since that violates a rule not to talk to the press negatively about anything in the movement.

          That’s a rule not “tech” (“tech” tech to me is crank therapy or crank Hubbard dead alien soul exorcism).

          Rules of disconnection when your Ethics Officer tells you that IS the next option if you want to continue Scientology services, I mean that’s NOT “tech”.

          Scientology’s unchallengable rules enforced by whatever the current threshold of opinion from the top, is what is wrong.

          The freezone seems to do their exorcism of dead alien souls just fine without declaring their followers who balk or complain about things openly as SPs correct?

          Official Scientology’s extremist (fundamentalist is too nice and sort of a deflection into normalcy since so much fundamentalism exists in the Chrisitan religion that is way more moderate than Scientology’s extremism if you ask me) behavior IS strict application of the 3 May PL “handle or disconnect” “tech” (really it’s “ethics tech” not crank therapy/exorcism “tech” though).

          It’s all really IG Admin’s fault, LOL, joke. Or IG Ethic’s fault, that was Marty’s old post, and Marty ought to have lightened way up on that old disconnection and SP declaring “tech” of Hubbard’s, joke, he was stuck with the bad unchallengable Hubbard system.

          The system is rotten. It’s anti free speech, it molds members into citizens of the world who do NOT have their UN Human Rights, that’s a easy way to grade Scientology and it’s various “techs”.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          “….I am not sure how to get around this, ,,,”

          Embarrass them about failing to communicate, and failing to even be willing to look at the internet discussion of ex members like you, you’d be a “safe” terminal to have good discussion with them!

        • Jon Atack

          I interviewed a member of the vaunted Watchdog Committee, some years ago (while it was still the governing body). He was 19. He grew up in the SO in the UK, but at 14, after achieving a high rank in the CMO, he went to Flag for the Executive Briefing Course, because he saw that Policy was not being applied at St Hill. He was disappointed to find that matters were even worse at Flag, so transferred to CMO Int at Gilman. There he found that no Policy was applied – just orders from ‘advices’. The myth of the golden age runs through human culture, and, as you say, members hold onto the notion that everything is perfect when you get to the top. I witnessed a former Hubbard aide giving a ‘severe reality adjustment’. When I asked where it was written to act in this way, he burst into tears, and explained that this humiliating (and indeed suppressive) way of treating people was learned when Hubbard did it to him and others. And, yes, all of that blue sky…

      • Shelly Britt Corrias

        Although I was at the Int Base for 18 years, which was more like a “dome” (if you’re seen that TV show) than a bubble, my work required me to travel a lot. Interaction with non-Scientologists outside the bubble built up doubt over the years. One project required that I stay in Spain for a year. There, I developed friendships and genuine love for many people, which was reciprocal. Love was not entirely absent at the Int base, but it was so stifled and suspect, you felt you had to hide it. So a free outpouring and sharing of it for an entire year was overwhelming. I also saw enough of these people’s real lives to realize that Scientology, while it may have benefits to some, was not the answer for everyone. If it wasn’t the answer for those I cared about most, what was I doing? Three years later, I was out.

        • Once_Born

          Thanks for your reply. Travel broadens the mind – but the CofS wants to keep it narrowly focussed on Scientology.

          It seems to me that the greatest threat to ‘the faith’ is a network of friends in the wider world. Contrary to the CofS propaganda, social relationships in the ‘wog’ world are generally deeper and more satisfying.

          Perhaps this is because they are not always conditional on your friends remaining ‘in good standing’ (the possibility of being required to ‘disconnect’ must always hover over close relationships) and secondary to ‘the cause’.

          The CofS recognises this, too – it is why so many of their policies (e.g. ‘disconnection’ and ‘ethics’) operate to frustrate close relationships even between members, and any free time not devoted to Scientology is considered not just wasted, but also a sort of betrayal of the CofS.

          Now they have to deal with virtual social relationships, too – so I am doubly pleased to meet you.

          • Shelly Britt Corrias

            For a “never-in” you have good insight. In addition to my Spanish amigos, I had a network of dear non-Scientologist vendor friends. In some cases, those friendships transcended our Scientology work association, and we remain close today. If my Spanish were better, I’d do my best to find those friends in Madrid!

            • Once_Born

              Thank you.

              It has always struck me that Scientology, with its emphasis on working in isolation to improve yourself, has it backwards. We are social animals, and find ourselves in our relationships with other people – and you seem well supplied with those.

            • richelieu jr

              I will help you, if you like.

            • Shelly Britt Corrias

              Wow, thank you. If you message me at shelly.britt@gmail.com maybe it’s not a lost cause.

      • Stacy

        This is the most excellent post I’ve yet seen here at the Bunker. Well said, Once Born. Some really great points.

        • Once_Born

          TU

      • Moonshot

        You ask and important and interesting question.

        I think the operative condition that pertains when a person decides to look at the “entheta” on the internet is the reluctant acceptance that church managment is full of shit.

        I think the place most Scientologists are at when the decide to look is something like “Scientology is still the route to spiritual freedom, but the current church Leader (ie Davood Miscabbage) is not doing things according to LRH principal or policy.” I mean serously, how many times can a person be forced to slog through KSW and then be forced to ignore the million times the church operates in direct and obvious opposition to this policy?

        For whatever reason, they have stopped being able to paper over all the myriad of things that are not consistent with policy or even basic common sense, and they are getting the strong inkling that the beast that is SCN doesnt give one rat’s ass for anyone, including them, including anyone they care about.

        Then they look. Then they blow.

        • Once_Born

          So, many Scientologists are first disillusioned with the management, but not the ‘tech’?

          I suspect that many begin to question Scientology when they have lived outside of the bubble for a while, and try to apply doctrine to the real world (where is does not work) instead of inside the bubble (where everyone assures it does, even it they have doubts themselves).

          People here often say that ‘independent Scientologist’ is (if you are lucky) a transitional stage on a journey back to real life. I hope this is correct.

          • Moonshot

            That’s pretty much true. It’s a transitional process. Baby steps, if you will. After getting out and getting some distance, evetually they will come to realize that they live just as well, if not even better in most cases, without the Church and without The Tech.
            For some, this may take months, for others it may take years. But for most, it surely comes.

        • DeElizabethan

          Yes, they get those doubts through the material they’ve read and see what actually is happening.

      • Globetrotter

        Hey Once-Born, you would probably only get some PR answers to those questions, designed to make the person feel right and believe that he made the right choice in the first place. Most Scientologists get the courage to look on the internet and discover the truth only after arriving at a point of some serious (or built up during the years) cognitive dissonance. E.g. you are sent back for the 4th time to re-read a “completely new and improved” edition of the same book, because all previous editions were dead wrong, redo a service at your expense for the 3rd time (after being told that it was all wrong in the first place but NOW it is “exactly as L. Ron Hubbard intended”). Everyone has a differently tuned Bullshit Sensor. People get to the point of the BS meter going off the dial at different ambient bullshit saturation levels. That’s when they start to read. The Church currently excels at providing lots of raw BS to blow the fuse on even the most sheepish person’s BS detector, that’s why you see so many people leaving.

        I don’t have a tried and true way of initiating it from the outside, but I would think that if there was some way of triggering that BS Detector with some very specific questions that make the person think and notice the BS, that may do the trick. The real problem is getting through the defense mechanism, which is built by years of indoctrination – they are trained to ignore and reject any criticism, or anything that would raise doubts.

        • arcinva

          “…ambient bullshit saturation levels.”

          Awesome turn of phrase. 🙂

    • richelieu jr

      You’re wrong, @truthiwant:disqus : You died alright, the robo-you, that dead huysk was abandoned so that you could be reborn literally– given a second chance to live in this world of reality that we’re stuck in.

      So very, very glad you did and you are here. Always the grain of salt I seek around these parts!

      • Truthiwant

        Well, thankyou.

        You know, we must have another Cheese Battle again, sometime. Do you remember?

        It’s not cricket when the French and the English actually get along with each other!

        • richelieu jr

          En garde!

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      I know those feelings. Good job..Silly huh.? I was afraid to read also….but once you decide that there is no going back, there will be no more meter checks, no more conditions to do, no more O/W write ups ever again, and you can read whatever you want and agree or disagree to your hearts content.

    • Baby

      We love our fool.. ( hahahha) I’m teasing you I’m glad you are out darlin and especially one of us!

      • Truthiwant

        Well, it is all a bit silly isn’t it? I mean, Xenu, body thetans, target two and the rest. And to actually hand over money to learn stuff that is pulled out of a guy’s ass!

  • Katie Cerin

    Hi Guys,
    Over 20 years ago when I mentioned the catchphrase that Scientology makes you more able to make more money to buy the expensive services, my girlfriend looked at me and said to me in a serious and caring tone ” in all the people that you know in Scientology, can you think of any that weren’t successful as far as money goes before they got it, that Scientology actually turned their finances around whle in. Have a true look at it objectively and see what answer you come up with.”
    At the time, I was a bit upset that she had the cheek to ask me that, but from then on the seed grew because I could not think of one person that I knew that became clearly more financially able through Scientology.
    I became more and more certain that this phrase that was thrown around was actually crap that was repeated because someone thought it sounded good.
    That was the start of me starting to think again for myself.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Welcome to The Bunker, Katie! Thank you.

    • Juicer77

      Welcome!

    • Stacy

      Thanks for sharing. Glad to hear from you.

    • Ardent

      Hello Katie. Thanks for sharing that story. Welcome to the Bunker.

      • joan nieman

        So happy that you have dropped in Katie and welcome!

        • Katie Cerin

          Cheers! Cannot think of a better place to be. We have a lot in common

    • richelieu jr

      Brilliant!

      This is exactly the sort of truth that vibrates with everyone, in or out.

    • Anonymous

      It seems that if someone comes from an already unpleasant / desperate personal life situation that they are more susceptible to recruitment onto staff in Scientology because at least there is a place to sleep, some work to do and some regular (sort of) food.

      As trivial an inducement as the above might seem to those people used to a middle-class lifestyle, regular meals, regular work and a regular place to sleep are actually a great improvement over the lives many people live. And needless to say, folks recruited onto staff are lied to a great deal to get them to sign up.

      Once on board, one is subjected to all manner of “training” and other acculturation techniques which make the apparently horrible, seem normal. If one is also from a foreign country and has had their passport taken away for “safe keeping” the feeling of disempowerment is immense. That feeling can start to seem normal over time too.

      I have seen people who came from terrible personal lives seem to blossom on staff…for awhile. Eventually the new nightmare outweighed the old nightmare and most fled.

      I have also see some public get so amped up over Scientology and their desire to do the “bridge” that they applied super-human effort to make a great deal of money so that they could do the bridge. And they did make a lot of money.

      This usually ending badly too though, as the persons then made horrible short term decisions about their money thinking it will all work out later on when they are “OT” for “eternity.” That IMHO, is an important part of Hubbard’s scam.

      • Stacy

        These are great points Anonymous. In the short time I’ve been studying CoS I’ve come to see it as a cult for the wealthy. Because of this I hadn’t considered the points you made about a place to stay and steady meals, etc. what that immediately brought to mind were the experiences I had volunteering in a drug court program teaching life skills. It was pretty common for the most down-on-their-luck offenders to violate the terms of their probation deliberately. They did this so they would be put in jail for a day or two and have a place to stay for a night, some good meals and access to a shower. It was even more common to see these guys hanging out at the Counseling Center all day, even when they weren’t required to be there, because it gave them something to do and a sense of belonging.

        I’m reevaluating my views on who gets drawn into CoS. Thank you. I learn so much here in the Bunker.

        • Baby

          OH Hell to the yes.. Stacy 30 years I saw those fighting for those 3 hots and a cot.

        • Globetrotter

          Stacy, don’t just yet 🙂 This is just a theory. I’ve just seen it in practice. I used to be in the Sea Org and I no longer consider myself even a Scientologist. I have real life experience from my many years in the Sea Org. When I read about Scientology these days (here and elsewhere) it reminds me how I actually BELIEVED in it, to my core, when I was “in”. I used to be financially independent and successful when I joined and gave it all up to HELP I believed that I would if I joined).

          Most people who just bash “all” Scientologists, Sea Org members, etc. don’t realize how many of the low level staff members are actually honest, well intentioned people who have been scammed just as much as the “public” they are scamming in turn. They may be naive, misguided, even dumb, but they aren’t in the same game as those on the top who are in on the scam. I used to be only a few levels down from RTC and I had no idea whatsoever of what was going on at the top. I actually thought Miscavige was a great, caring, hard working leader and we were winning… – I honestly did. Maybe it doesn’t reflect to well on me, but as naive as I were, I was there to fight the good fight and made a tremendous sacrifice to do so – I gave up pretty much everything in life to be in the Sea Org, and that included leaving behind a profitable business I used to own and a pretty good life. Many of my friends in the Sea Org were similar – one of my fellow staff members gave up a successful medical practice, another one was a successful vet before joining – he had his own airplane that he few as a hobby, etc. These were not people who joined so they had something to eat or somewhere to sleep.

          • Baby

            GT.. Most of us here don’t hate the Players.. We only hate the game. I don’t know anyone who bashes people in unless they are real Assholes ( Cardones )

            There is a cross section of people who join. We all recognize that.

            Ps glad you are out!

            • Globetrotter

              Thanks Baby. Yes, I realize there are different kinds of people here (like everywhere else) with different attitudes. While I’m not defending Scientology at all, I kinda still feel like defending some of my friends who are still “in”. I have very, very good friends still in the Sea Org or just around as “true believers” and I very often think about how I could get them to see the light and stop wasting their lives. Some of these are really, really good people and good friends of mine and I would probably have some tears of joy if any one of them got out and we could just have a chat – we could talk for hours. I am hoping to do that one day with at least some of them.

            • aegerprimo

              I hope you get the chance, and they will need friends like you.

            • Baby

              I understand GT..

              I am so hoping with you that your friends will join you ” OUT” someday.. You make sure and let us know when ( NOT if) but when that happens. We’ll all root for them.

            • Sitkajo

              Well I personally dislike cancer and yet many of my favorite people are cancer survivors and some still are ‘in’ so to speak.

            • Jon Atack

              Hate the game, but love the players. Well said, but you really must try to give up smoking, Baby!

            • Baby

              Haha Hey Jon.. That Baby Ronnie and his Kool..

              You know ” Not smoking enough causes Lung cancer..” blah, blah
              You are one of the heros in this freakin saga..

              I want to give you a big SMOOOOOOOOTCH…. OOps pardon my cigarette..xo Baby

          • Stacy

            I wouldn’t revise my views to that extent. More like stretched the boundaries of my thinking on who would want to join CoS and who would CoS target to join. It’s more like I’m considering a much more representative sample of people being intrigued with scientology. It still seems to me that CoS primarily chooses to target middle to upper class people just for their wealth.

            From everything I’ve read and heard, so many ex-Scientologists got involved because they wanted to help others and the world, and thought CoS was the way. This is so sad to me. What a ploy. Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing when he used language like that. But many of the cult experts (here & elsewhere) also talk about cults filling a need in the converts, emotional, psychological, etc. I really hadn’t considered people joining for a sense of belonging, for a place to be, etc., because everything I’ve read about being on staff or in the Sea Org is negative and horrible. I hadn’t been able to see it from another perspective because of that. Anonymous’ post sort of jarred me into doing so.

            Thank you for describing your experiences in CoS to me, and taking the time to write this post. I appreciate it. I sincerely hope you’ve been able to at least start regaining what you lost in life to Scientology.

            • Globetrotter

              Choosing middle or upper class people as targets is clearly expressed in the Scientology phrase “helping the able become more able”, so I think you are right about that.

              Not everything about being on staff or in the Sea Org is (or was for me) negative and horrible. If you are of the mindset that you are in there helping, you believe you are making a difference in the world, then it doesn’t feel much different from anyone helping a charitable organization or a good cause anywhere – which is actually a pretty good feeling.

              Having been there, I sometimes wonder about those who leave the Sea Org and then go all over the place playing victim saying how TERRIBLE it was, how they were abused so badly, etc. – and I’m sure many were, but personally, I didn’t feel that way at all. I WAS committed to the cause at the time so all the things that look terrible in retrospect (man, the food… sleeping with 8 other staff members in a room an sharing a single shower… and so on) but they didn’t look “terrible” at the time so why re-paint them in retrospect? A marine on a rescue mission wouldn’t complain about food or shelter – there is a mission, and we do what we have to do. Re-evaluating all of that in retrospect and crying about how terrible it was, etc. is kinda the sign of a weak person for me, because when I realized I didn’t want to play the game any more, I got the hell outta there. While I WAS in there, I was there on my own volition, and in the way missions are action, adrenaline, heroic and whatnot for a marine, I was also enjoying the action. If you heard a marine complain about how hard it was to be a marine, how bad the food was, and how hard the floor was he had to sleep on, and so on, wouldn’t you think “oh, what a wuss. you joined the marines didn’t you? what did you expect? a nanny to tuck you in at night and a butler to serve you afternoon tea”? The fact is we all kinda knew it wasn’t a walk in the park and we signed up for it ourselves. I became a tougher person in the Sea Org in the good sense of the word, and after leaving, I regained my compassion, so now I’m a tougher person with compassion and respect for others. Did I lose? I only lost my religion, but gained valuable experience. A lesson is a lesson, even if learning it is unpleasant and it takes you somewhere else than you thought you would end up. As someone way smarter than I said, sometimes the wrong train can take you to the right station.

              And yes, I built a new, and much more successful business since I left. I don’t feel I lost anything to Scientology – I think I learned a lesson. If people say you can learn a lesson from any hardship, why would devoting years of your life to a fake cause, but with great people people around you, terrible food and a rude awakening would have to be an exception? 🙂 I can’t really feel sorry for some of the crybabies out there who go “woo hoo, they treated me so baaaaaaad…” What were you doing staying around and taking more of it then…?

              I don’t feel like a victim (unlike, unfortunately, I see many people do) I only see my time in Scientology as part of my lifelong learning process. Could have been worse 🙂 I could have been partying my life away like youngsters do these days, and they learn much less from it than I did from my tenure in “the world’s fastest growing religion” 🙂

            • Stacy

              It’s great to have such a healthy view on it. I definitely believe that the best lessons in life are the hardest ones, but that’s probably because I’m very stubborn and I often don’t learn important life lessons any way but the hard way.

              I’m also really glad that you didn’t feel coerced into your Sea Org life. Some of the exes here have a right to feel disillusioned and victimized because they were lied to when they were recruited into the Sea Org. If you enter into an agreement under false pretenses, you’re not getting what you thought you were. To go with your Marine analogy, many were told they were joining the Air Force (I should’ve used Navy), but then found they actually ended up in the Marines. Or perhaps an even better analogy would be, they were told they were joining a church, and wound up in the Marines

            • mpl

              I feel the worst for the kids who grew up in scn because their parents were in. They didn’t have the choice, you know? And from what I’ve read, they had the REAL crap end of the stick. Ok, I get it if you want to join a cult for a cause and think you’re saving the planet, and you’re even willing to make some serious sacrifices to do that. But don’t drag your innocent kids into that mess. They shouldn’t have to make those sacrifices too.

            • Stacy

              Totally with you on this. But then, I don’t think kids should have any kind of religion forced on them at a young age. Just my opinion.

            • Globetrotter

              You are probably right. Having no kids and having joined on my own volition, I don’t have personal experience with that, but I can imagine that really sucks. But then again (maybe just because because I have a strongly positive world view) there are kids from countries with no food, toilets or running water who become champs, because they look for the way out, for the way up, and don’t complain. Don’t get me wrong, being robbed of your childhood you should have had is a terrible thing – but I wouldn’t let that define me, just as being abused sexually as a child doesn’t have to become THE thing defining the person in his adult years. And there are people going around telling everyone “I’m an abuse victim, I’m an abuse victim” and kinda wearing that as a badge. That’s the thing I’m not liking.

            • Anonymous

              Maybe you might want to head on down to a Holocaust Survivors website and peddle your brand of blame the victim apologist bullshit.

              I call troll.

            • Jon Atack

              I’ve recently spent more time with second generation members and the few I’ve spoken to are quite different from those of us who joined up as adults. For ‘public’ children, and especially those subjected to Hubbard schools, and for staffers’ kids, there is no comparable system in their lives. I grew up in the typical western Christian-democratic-scientific world, so I had plenty to compare Scientology to and it was relatively easy to unhook my mind from Hubbard’s implants.

              I’ve often repeated the conversation I had with a former member who aged nearly 40, and over 15 years after leaving, asked me if ‘reality is really an agreement’. She happens to be highly intelligent and well-educated (since leaving the cult). I was delighted when in a subsequent conversation she told me she’d used scented laundry conditioner for the first time. We hadn’t talked about it (the phobia came from Hubbard’s pronouncement in the SO hygiene rules that scent is used by the ‘psychs’ to control humanity), which is why I was so happy. She was thinking without needing assistance.

              But without a comparable system, it is very hard to appreciate the pure weirdness of many Hubbard notions. Growing up in the Sea Org is simply slavery. I’ve met one marvellous ex member who remained stuck for almost 30 years because of the phobia of losing her family. She never wanted to be ‘Clear’ and she avoided as much of the indoctrination as she could. Her human rights were abused on a daily basis, and often severely so. Recovery is very different in such circumstances. It is more like the PTSD that is seen in torture victims – or, indeed, anyone who has been reduced to nothing by an abuser. All RPF victims have been humiliated and will often exhibit dissociation – where they cannot think or feel as they should.

              Children should be taught about the tricks and manipulations so commonly used in our society. They should have access to the plurality of beliefs in our society.

            • mpl

              Hello Jon – I totally agree. Although, even without a comparable system, I believe children can sense something is not right – especially Sea Org kids who are kept from their parents for much of the time. My heart breaks for them – even though folks like Jenna Miscavige and Mareka Brousseau show that the human spirit can overcome so much abuse.

              By the way, I much admire the way you work to expose Hubbard’s fraudulence on an ongoing basis. Thank you!

            • Globetrotter

              Good examples. I was misled too, in many regards – but hey, did you go to vote? 🙂 Obviously, it depends on the person, but I just find living life more enjoyable if I don’t dwell on the bad things that were done to me, the broken promises, whatever… let’s just get on with life and create something awesome – that’s my general attitude.

            • Zer0

              The best revenge is a life well lived

            • Jon Atack

              Who needs revenge, when there are so many people to help?

            • Stacy

              Most people here feel that way too. They’d like to see something awesome created without CoS in the world. I agree. If they’d just be honest, transparent and noncriminal, I’d be happy to let CoS be. But they aren’t, so people need to stand up to CoS and attempt to make things change. I think that’s as important as focusing on my own personal success in life. I like to think that when I can make a positive difference, that IS success in my personal life. But I also was never-in. For many who were, the healthiest thing may be to walk away and never look back.

            • Globetrotter

              Well, I think trying to convince anyone IN Scientology about a needed change is a lost cause. I think the Church of Scientology is already insignificant and shrinking by the day. I don’t do anything actively against Scientology neither do I think it is necessary from my perspective – not being there (I used to be a very active member and I haven’t been near Scientology in years) is already a message to those who have eyes to see and if you multiply that by the number of members leaving, Scientology will eventually die off by erosion.

            • Anonymous

              That is great…for you. In typical Scientology fashion you have jumped into a Solopsitic balnket of “theta” to derail discussion about the deliberate damage done by the church.

              But Scientology is still deliberately conning people and causing harm to others.

              Others who not yet been harmed need to be warned. Those that are still inside need to be helped to leave.

              That is what this site is about. Folks here dont’ “dwell on the bad things” for no reason.

              The deliberate harm caused by Scientology is not someone’s “case.” It is actual harm and the people who did that harm need to be held accountable.

              Folks like you who try to diminish that deliberate harm or brand the victims of that harm as “weak” are apologists, collaborators or perpetrators. Which are you?

            • Anonymous

              No question that different people had different experiences in the Sea Org, on staff or as public.

              Many people re-evaluate their experience when they learn that L. Ron Hubbard secretly enriched himself from Scientology, all the while telling everyone (in writing) that he did not make money from church operations. The church itself has admitted that LRH left an estate of $18 million from monies all garnered while his only source of income was the church. Others with personal knowledge have estimated that Hubbard took many hundreds of millions out of the church while he was running it. This makes the sacrifice and valor exhibited by those “helping” Hubbard seem a bit different in retrospect. The fact is, we were duped by a liar.

              Sea Org Captain David Miscavige has a personal lifestyle that makes LRH look like a piker by comparison and Miscavige has never done a damn thing except Scientology to ever earn a nickle. Some game, different scammer.

              And the larger promises of Scientology such as a world without war, crime or insanity have not come to fruition, even inside the tiny bubble that is the church. The states of Clear and OT, as described by Hubbard in writing, have never been demonstrably obtained by anyone. By those measures, Scientology has failed to deliver on its promises for six decades. And it had viciously attacked people who know the truth and have said the truth out loud.

              The above makes Scientology a fraud and its leadership disreputable.

            • Anonymous

              “Re-evaluating all of that in retrospect and crying about how terrible it was, etc. is kinda the sign of a weak person for me, because when I realized I didn’t want to play the game any more, I got the hell outta there.”

              Watch this video and tell me some more about your views on “weak” people:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htn1PauZUYs

            • Globetrotter

              Hi Anonymous, I have seen that video. The stuff that has been going on at the top (Int/Gold) was absolutely shocking for me, even years after I left – for reasons much less significant that those. Maybe I wasn’t clear – none of my remarks were in relationship to these people and events, since I wasn’t there personally, I was only commenting on what I personally experienced.

              What many people don’t realize (I haven’t either until I learned of the cruelty and abuses by Miscavige) is that Int/Gold is a completely different world of its own, and even one level down (in the middle-management organizations in Los Angeles) people have no idea of these things happening at Int and they don’t live like that. During all of my years in the Sea Org I have never seen that kind of abuse happening at the lower levels, so everything I ever heard about it was years after I left, second hand – from the same sources available to anyone on the internet.

              I don’t think Debbi or anyone who suffered from the abuse at Int/Gold is “weak”. My comment was about the people who leave a lower level Sea Org organization that is a walk in the park compared to Int and complain how bad the food was and how terribly they were treated and then cite some event like they only had 15 minutes to do their laundry, etc.. I get that and that’s terrible, but they are complaining about things so minor compared to what people at Int had to go through that it’s completely ridiculous. That’s the person I was referring to as a “crybaby” – someone outraged at how bad the food was.

              People who were imprisoned and abused at Int is a horror story and they have my respect and admiration and I’m really sorry for what they had to endure. Realize that I know some of these people personally, and I had no idea of “their world” when we met while I was still “in”. All I was saying is that I never experienced that myself personally, so to me – I only learned about it from second hand accounts. Where I was, it wasn’t “terrible”, we weren’t abused, tortured, humiliated, imprisoned, etc. OK, the food was bad… and the accommodations sucked. But I wouldn’t cry about that.

            • Anonymous

              “I was only commenting on what I personally experienced…”

              Look up the word, then clay demo: “Solipsism.”

              Then look up the word and clay demo: “Apologist.”

              Then look up the phrase and clay demo: “Derailing a thread.”

              Then re-do your A-E checklist to see if you have missed anything that might impede your ability to get back into “good standing.”

            • Anonymous

              *Yawn*

            • grundoon

              “I can’t really feel sorry for some of the crybabies out there who go ‘woo hoo, they treated me so baaaaaaad…’ What were you doing staying
              around and taking more of it then…?”

              I upvoted this, not because I agree, but because I think it is a window into the thinking of many Sea Org staff while “in” that keeps them from getting out. They take it as a point of pride in their toughness and dedication to stick it out, absorb any abuse, take all that is dumped on them and stay with the program. It lets them see those who escape (or get kicked out or just disappear without explanation) as defective, inferior failures and dismiss their concerns as whining weakness. The Sea Org authorities, from Hubbard on down, deliberately inculcate and foster this view because it enhances their power, keeps the slaves slaving, and blocks anyone from looking at the outpoints that caused those people to leave. It’s an implant that they try to give to all Sea Org members from their first day on the EPF.

              Once out, for many, it takes a long time to get free of the implant. What seems to remove it is when the former Sea Org members actually meet and get to know one another on the outside, free of suppression, look back on their experiences and learn the real stories and the real character of people who they formerly looked down upon.

              Globetrotter is stating his or her views honestly, not trolling, in my opinion. My guess is that Globetrotter, although out for a long time, has had little contact with other ex-Sea Org and hasn’t yet peeled off much of the implant. Joining the Bunker community might be the beginning of a reconsideration of old fixed ideas, and a new step forward. Here’s hoping!

            • Globetrotter

              Grundoon, you are probably right. I know that to this day, there are many things I do or say that are influenced by my experience in the Sea Org. And (throw eggs at me if you want) I found a few things I still agree with.

              Whatever anyone may think about Scientology and the people who fell for it, I don’t think there is anything in this world that’s exactly 100%, or absolutely wrong without any speck of right about it. I learned a few things in the Sea Org I still use to this day and find true and workable.

              Yes, I did look down on certain people while I was in the Sea Org (you are indoctrinated to do that and have a righteous attitude!) but I don’t any more. While I was still in, I DID look down at those who deserted, were kicked out etc. as “rejects”. It was WRONG and I know it now. And I don’t look down at people any more, for any reason.

              I got attacked for a comment that I believe was misunderstood (or I wasn’t clear). I was saying that my experience in the Sea Org wasn’t “terrible” and I worked with a lot of other people who didn’t find it terrible either. I can’t truly say I was abused, or maybe in one sense – that we were misled and worked for a goal that was a fake rainbow. I would NEVER complain about my time in the Sea Org because it was an experience for me, a mixed one, but I didn’t “suffer” while I was in the Sea Org – it would be a lie to say that. It was a tough group with mostly well meaning people, and we got our orders from the top which, unbeknownst to us, was a criminal bunch who kept us in the dark.

              Sorry for the lame example, but it may be similar to a person who works for a company owned by the mafia that only exists to launder money but does things that seem legitimate to the employees… you are surrounded by people who believe in what you believe, you are part of a group you (mostly) enjoy being with, there are tough goals and projects, so there’s some action, excitement, etc. – and you don’t realize that you worked for the bad guys all along because it didn’t feel that way while you were doing it.

              For the REAL trolls on this blog, like Anonymous:

              I am offering my personal views and experience here because I know that many people on this blog only have second hand “experience” with what it is like to work for Scientology. For anyone who hates reading anything he doesn’t fully agree with and can’t help but attack the person who expresses a different opinion, I am asking you, why bother? You can’t beat everyone you disagree with to death (although it doesn’t seem to stop you from trying).

            • grundoon

              Chuck Beatty spent years on the Int RPF. He says he enjoyed it, thrived there, and the food was great. Digging ditches was his favorite activity. He enjoyed the PAC RPF too, because he could sit in the Qual library and read all of the non-LRH books, which I guess were kept there because LRH name-dropped them. While waiting to route out, and under 24-hour watch, he could go (with a minder) to the LA public library and read entheta on the Internet.

              Of course Chuck is kind of unique, but it shows that there’s more than one example of someone making the best of a bad situation in the Sea Org.

              Sea Ogres are made to conform to the same hundreds of pages of policies, dress alike, eat alike, sleep alike, and work alike. Yet despite the enforced similarities, their stories are all different. Hubbard and Miscavige tried their utmost to create a machine that would crush every last spark of individuality – but they failed. Individuality is stronger.

            • Globetrotter

              LOL, I haven’t heard that about Chuck, but that’s quite something 🙂 Yes, suppression of individual opinions, ideas, desires, goals, needs and wants is the very reason I left. I had an increasing feeling of being kind of a sheep which is as far from my ideas about myself as it gets. I could suppress that in myself for a while (believing it was for a higher purpose) but at a certain point, I have had enough and had to get out.

            • grundoon

              BTW, Anonymous is no troll. His lucid, insightful comments here have earned immense respect.

              He has explained clearly what set him off, but I don’t accept his conclusion that you are up to no good. If you stick around, I’m sure the truth, one way or the other, will become apparent in time.

            • Globetrotter

              OK, thanks for sharing. I’m not new to reading this blog only new to commenting on it. If I’m wrong about someone (it happens of course), I will freely admit it. My opinion of him is only based on this exchange (since this is all I have seen – I have mostly read just the articles up to this point) which apparently is not a representative sample of his activity.

            • Anonymous

              You are still trolling – but again, nice try.

            • richelieu jr

              “Choosing middle or upper class people as targets is clearly expressed in
              the Scientology phrase “helping the able become more able”, so I think
              you are right about that.”

              Well, not that upper or middle class people are necessarily more ‘able’ in any true sense but monetary… This sort of sci-fi nonsense does tend to be the sort of idiocy you can only get into with too much free time on your hands…

              It reminds me of Steve Martin’s saying that he becamee a doctor, “..specializing in diseases of the very rich.”

            • Globetrotter

              No, there is no parallel between being rich and having more ability – but Scientologists are led to believe so. Probably in the interest of turning their attention to “help” (read: recruit, sell services to, etc.) those with more money.

              But I disagree with you on the other point – they don’t get involved because they have too much free time (actually, people with more money tend to have less free time), but because of the promises of increased spiritual freedom and personal power and solutions to problems with communication, marriage, personal relationships, etc.. When new people get introduced to Scientology, the “sci-fi” stuff is not even in sight. They find out about the more esoteric stuff as they progress.

            • richelieu jr

              Tell someone with three minimum wage jobs that people with more money tend to have less free time.

            • Globetrotter

              Of course, that’s a scenario too. I just know from knowing a lot of financially successful people that they usually work more and have less free time than the average person. Having 3 jobs is NOT usual and the average wealthy business owner often works the equivalent of more than one full time job, while an average person with a full time job goes home at 5 (there is rush hour traffic to prove that… 🙂 ) and watches TV for 5 hours a day – a luxury most business owners can’t even dream of. Nothing about who is better or anything like that, just saying that “rich people have all the time in the world while poor people have to work all day” is kind of a myth – those who inherited wealth, maybe, but not your typical well-off business owner.

            • Anonymous

              Stacy – if you have not already seen this site, check it out at this link: http://alley.ethercat.com/door/.

              Contained therein are hundreds of formatted interviews with former Scientologists from all parts of the church…Sea Or, staff and public. There are some very compelling testimonials about why people joined, what they did while on board and why they left.

            • Stacy

              Thanks for the link. I’m a bit late to the Bunker today, and I foresee a nap in my near future, but I’ll be checking out the stories at the link in a few hours.

            • Globetrotter

              Great info there Anonymous, thanks for sharing.

          • Stacy

            I should also point out I wasn’t stating I thought anyone in CoS were/are lowlife drug addicts. First of all, I don’t view drug addicts in drug court as lowlifes. But I know the last place you’d find a drug addict is in CoS. And I was definitely not implying CoS parishioners and staffers or even most Sea Org are lowlifes. My direct experience with all the exes here in the Bunker have shown me what kind of people get drawn into CoS- wonderful, intelligent, “human” people. My drawing the parallel I did was just because something in the language used by Anonymous spoke to that particular memory. Many people have a need for a sense of belonging, or a stable work/ home life, or 3 squares, without being in such a desperate situation as I described. I’m sorry you misunderstood me Globe. I’ll try to be clearer next time. Sometimes it’s hard to have everyone get the same message out of your words. I need to work on that.

            Thanks.

            • Globetrotter

              I got it Stacy – I didn’t think there was anything wrong with what you wrote, just wanted to share my own experience.

          • Anonymous

            I completely agree with this. Most Scientologists are good people and are not aware of the more sinister aspects of the church. They do not know about the, lavish, billionaire lifestyle of Sea Org Captain David Miscavige, which is funded by IAS “donations” and the brutal, spartan nature of the lifestyles of the people who actually do the work in the church…Sea Org members and non Sea Org staff.

        • Anonymous

          I was away while this thread lengthened. You’ll see the progression of my understanding of what Globetrotter is doing if you re-read the thread from my original post on down.

          A post like the one I made is a magnet for those with malevolent intent.

          It appears that the bait was taken. Heh.

          • Stacy

            I pretty much figured that the intent wasn’t good when the posts started attacking anyone who felt victimized by joining Sea Org. Didn’t seem like regained compassion to me. I gave myself a good pat on the back for catching on in only 2 posts, and for (I think) being fairly reasonable in my responses. I also checked to see if GT was a new account.

            • Anonymous

              He’s a troll.

              His arguments are typical of someone who lives in a isolated bubble reality but thinks he is worldly and clever.

            • Stacy

              It was the compassion thing that clued me in. Every ex here is just oozing compassion.

            • Stacy

              Actually, I had my first suspicion when I read his original response to me for a second time and realized it read like he was aghast that I might think loser drug addicts and homeless people might be drawn to CoS (not my views on this). I hoped this wasn’t what he meant, but I knew later it was. Sad. I met some really great people when I volunteered for drug court.

            • Globetrotter

              Stacy, I expressed my own opinion. Some of you apparently disagree with me, which is fine – we all have the right to think our own thoughts. But I just said what I think and what I experienced.

              Then you “realize” I’m a troll and I work for the Church. Nothing could be further form the truth. I am an ex-Scientologist who doesn’t work for anyone and had no contact with any org or Sea Org staff for years.

              And I’m sitting here thinking… OK, I thought I was on a blog expressing my opinion, but apparently, I entered a court with suspicious judges watching and evaluating my every word, and based on an “expert evaluation” I have been judged, labeled and then became a “target” to attack.

              I am none of those things Anonymous is accusing me of, or what you “realized”. If you disagree with my views, say so and I will listen. I’m actually interested and can also accept other people’s opinion and change mine if I see a reason to – that’s why I’m here and having this conversation. But this labeling and name calling is something else.

              What if you are mistaken? Is that possible? Can I be just a “normal” person saying what I think?

              There is nothing more I can do than telling you that you are mistaken. If you already made up your mind, then I’m sorry. I don’t know what you believe I could “achieve” with my posts, other than telling you what I think and what I experienced – I didn’t think my comments were fit for any other purpose than expressing my thoughts.

            • Stacy

              Of course I could be mistaken. I’m not infallible. No one is. It’s hard not to be suspicious given the way CoS operates. Either you’re OSA/ still in CoS or you’re not. The opinions you expressed make you seem as if you are. But even if you are, you’re entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine. And whether I think you’re in CoS or out, it won’t change how I express my views to you at all. Everyone deserves politeness and basic respect. Except for maybe Hitler.

              Anonymous was just looking out for me since I’m pretty new here. And frankly, I trust his opinion. But as I said, that doesn’t change how I interact with people.

            • Globetrotter

              OK. I’m not sure if you have been in the Church or not – I devoted many years of my life working for them. And I left for a reason. I no longer believe or agree with what they teach and do and I have no contact with the Church. I have my own opinion. If anyone may discover traces of thoughts I picked up while in the Church, that’s probably because I’m sure I did – years of exposure to a kind of thinking influences how a person thinks (nothing surprising about that). That doesn’t make me a “Church agent” as our beloved Anonymous seems to believe.

              “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”

            • Stacy

              Charles Bukowski.

              The best way to convince me is through normal dialogue. Attacking Anonymous’ intelligence is not a good way to convince me. First, I didn’t take his word that you’re in CoS- I thought that to myself before he said anything. Second, it’s an attack.

              Just being here and talking and raising cogent points is the best way I see to settle any one’s doubts, including mine.

              “Patience you must have…” Yoda

            • Globetrotter

              Sure, I was just getting tired of his absolute confidence in his wrong diagnosis – and if you scroll a bit, you will see that he called me multiple versions of stupid, a liar, unintelligent, a church agent, following a script, having a handler, working for OSA, etc. before I lost my patience. It took about 10 different insults to get me to the point when I wrote that…

            • Stacy

              You absolutely have the right to express what you think. I do too.

              When did you get out of CoS, if you don’t mind me asking?

            • Globetrotter

              Gradually, since 2003. First I only left the Sea Org but still used to be a “true believer” -an ex-Sea Org “public” – for years. But when you are out, you get unlimited access to the internet… bad for Scientology. I carefully, slowly and reluctantly started reading some critical stuff (it’s considered a MAJOR “offense” to do that, even if you were just a public Scientologist…) It took me years to decide that I was duped and that I didn’t want anything to do with the Church any more. I can’t really draw a line when that point was, as it happened gradually over the years. “Losing your religion” is not a process that happens from one day to the next. No one is happy to lose something they have, and especially with core beliefs that shaped your life for so many years, it’s not easy to admit that you were led down the garden path and accept that all your priorities, and pretty much your entire life was arranged around a big lie.

            • Stacy

              I bet. Good for you.

            • Anonymous

              You forgot troll. And that is what you are.

            • Anonymous

              “What if you are mistaken? Is that possible?”

              Yes…it is possible, but in this case, unlikely.

              Your behavior fits a well established pattern.

              The next thing that will probably happen is someone will jump to your defense and instigate (knowingly or unknowingly) a flame war that will cause all manner of ill-will and probably result in somebody getting their feelings hurt and leaving the board.

              We’ve seen it before. The techniques for doing this (3rd party trick) are taught in Scientology. And it just happened here a few days ago.

              Not surprisingly you then show up under a “new” avatar and the cycle repeats. Heh.

            • Globetrotter

              “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”

            • Anonymous

              And the even stupider ones still act as apologists for Scientology atrocities because they “never personally experienced” those atrocities.

            • Globetrotter

              I believe that David Miscavige is a freak, a monster and a selfish idiot. That’s what I tell my friends. And I already helped two of them to leave the Church. Not sure how that makes me an apologist… In the other hand, I don’t think I’m obliged to agree with your one-sided logic that if one side is wrong in a conflict, that automatically makes the other side right. Just because the Church is dead wrong, doesn’t make everyone who leaves and turns against them an angel. People who give interviews and write books about how bad the food was, while others have been beaten, abused, imprisoned and tortured (and they haven’t experienced any of those things) are wussies in my view. That’s all I said.

            • Anonymous

              “People who give interviews and write books about how bad the food was,
              while others have been beaten, abused, imprisoned and tortured (and they
              haven’t experienced any of those things) are wussies in my view. That’s
              all I said.”

              Great defense of you not being a troll. LOL.

              Are you stupid, or just pretending so you can later make an insanity defense?

      • Globetrotter

        Anonymous, I assume you are referring to recruiting Sea Org members since org staff don’t get food or a place to sleep – they have to provide for themselves so they have nothing to gain in that regard.

        I used to be in the Sea Org for many years, including doing quite some work in recruitment and as much as your theory seems to make sense, I haven’t seen that to be the case. I have personally and very well known hundreds of Sea Org members and never heard of a single one who had any trouble with food and shelter before they joined. Many of them joined during times of hardship (when people are more suggestible and receptive to “help”) but mostly due to emotional reasons. In my many years in the Sea Org i never met a person whose standards of living actually IMPROVED as a result of joining. To the contrary – for most new Sea Org members (including myself) the low standards of living in the Sea Org were shocking on arrival, compared to their “previous life” before the Sea Org. When was the last time you have seen pictures from Sea Org members about their actual living conditions sent to their relatives? You haven’t? Neither did anyone else, because it would be deemed a serious crime to show “the shore” how bad those living quarters and meals actually look like. I hated the berthing, hated the food, hated the poverty – I just put up with it because I honestly believed I was fighting the good fight and this was the price of admission.

        So I don’t think your story holds water. I have seen most people join the Sea Org because they are made to believe that they can support a good cause and they actually GIVE UP much better living conditions to devote their lives to that cause. Not to get “food and shelter”.

        • Anonymous

          “As much as your theory seems to make sense, I haven’t seen that to be the case.”

          Nice try.

          I’ve watched you slowly slide down the slope of this thread from reasonable sounding person, to Scientology apologist, to obvious bullshitter and inevitably, now you come at me with your BS. The script you are using for your game is well understood. It has been in operation ever since Hubbard put it together roughly 45 years ago.

          I’m well aware of the difference between a Sea Org member and a staffer.

          But nice try there too.

          “I have personally and very well known hundreds of Sea Org members and never heard of a single one who had any trouble with food and shelter before they joined.”

          By your statements you have shown yourself to be both a liar and an ignorant liar at that. I don’t need an education from a liar and a troll. Your game is transparent…go back and tell your handler(s) that you failed (again.)

          • Globetrotter

            Anonymous, I left the Church years ago. I have no connection with them whatsoever. I have no “handlers”, no script, agenda, nothing to apologize for and I am not trying to do anything. I just expressed my personal opinion. I am no longer a Scientologist. Believe what you want, your accusations are completely baseless. I’m not offended by them, because I see how a person who has seen what the Church can and will do (including deceptive tactics) may think I’m trying to do something for them here. Absolutely not.

            I’m done with Scientology. I moved on. My continuing interest is only due to my friends still “in” and in the hopes I will be able to openly talk to them one day about our “adventures” together.

            I don’t think it adds value to the conversation here to accuse me (or anyone just honestly expressing their opinion – even if you disagree with them) of being a liar and a troll. I’m not and calling me anything doesn’t make me what you believe me to be or try to read into me.

            • Anonymous

              “I have no connection with [Scientology] whatsoever.”

              Sure you don’t. I believe you. Heh.

            • Globetrotter

              OK. Suit yourself.

            • Anonymous

              “I don’t think it adds value to the conversation here to accuse me…blah, blah, blah…”

              Waah….waah….waah – is that you being…a victim?

            • Jon Atack

              I’m all for John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, where he gives very cogent reasons for free and open debate. Globetrotter is expressing significant criticisms of the cult and its treatment of Sea Org members, so dismissal as a ‘troll’ seems extreme. I don’t detect any GOSA traits here.

              We are having to generalise about thousands of people. How much each individual case should be discussed is another matter, altogether. As Hubbard said, there are people who are dead because they opposed him. The general treatment of SO members fails to meet the standard set by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and by the US Bill of Rights. SO members are recruited deceptively. They are then subjected to extreme environmental control – the working hours alone take away any access to outside information. Maybe Globetrotter could reflect on the BITE model put forward by Steve Hassan? Behaviour, Information, Thought and Emotion are all controlled in the SO. The techniques of auditing are hypnotic – even Hubbard admitted as much (read my Never Believe a Hypnotist for the references – there are so many of them!) – inducing euphoria (VGIs) and heightening suggestibility. I feel that anyone who has been subjected to such practices has a right to complain publicly. It isn’t like college hazing – years of humiliation and degrading conditions. But those who do nothing but whine – make no attempt to understand the sinister practices of the cult or to help others to achieve critical thinking – and who take no responsibility for the harm they did – that’s a different matter.

              I too have yet to meet anyone who joined the SO for a better life! And I’ve met quite a lot, these last forty years. Name calling is not useful…

            • Anonymous

              Jon – I respect your views and value your opinions. However you do not hold all of the information about Scientology.

              I personally witnessed a very large, fairly long-term Sea Org recruitment effort in LA aimed at very poor, non-English speaking immigrants who were brought aboard, then enslaved for several months at a time doing brutal, menial manual labor, then expelled and dumped back on the streets without as much as a thank you. I saw it with my own incredulous eyes.

              That is but one example of such behavior. The people recruited were barely above the level of homeless when approached. That you (or “Globetrotter”) did not personally witness this, does not mean it did not happen. Neither of you ever met Abraham Lincoln, but I doubt either of you would assert that means the man never existed.

              There are many more recent reports of crew at FLAG, especially in the housekeeping and other manual labor posts, being heavily populated by non-English speaking, recent, East European immigrants. That is not by accident and those people did not join the Sea Org under honest inducement or because they had great lives where they previously lived. They are in many cases barely literate and are utterly lost in the US…by design.

              Not sure how much of this thread you read or how much of the subtle disparagement Globetrotter was slinging with his comments, because of the way the thread was mis-mashed over time by Disqus, which confused the original placement and context of his remarks. I called him out for good reason.

              You are a smart guy…I like what you write and say. But I stand by what I wrote, especially in the context of other recent events that are not recorded here.

              And I’ll add that someone coming to the defense of Globtrotter is EXACTLY the sort of third-party ill-will that the church seeks to instill between it’s critics with the same sort of subtle, “reasonable” sounding mudslinging.

              The EXACT same thing just happened here last week and a long term commenter on this blog got furious and left for good. That event was deliberately provoked. Please consider the possibility…it is hardly the first time this has occurred here, or on other sites.

              Keep up the good work – I do enjoy your viewpoints and information.

            • grundoon

              Hi, Anonymous. What you say about Sea Org recruiting deserves to be more widely known. I don’t recall hearing of that LA exploitation incident before you mentioned it here. A few facts have leaked out about the human trafficking such as the example you mention at Flag, but a full expose is needed. It seems to be a systematic practice in the Sea Org, affecting quite a few people who are prevented from speaking for themselves, but only isolated incidents have gotten public attention.

              “someone coming to the defense of Globtrotter is EXACTLY the sort third-party ill-will that the church seeks to instillI… The EXACT same thing just happened here last week and a long term commenter on this blog got furious and left for good. That event was deliberately provoked.”

              Are you referring to the recent incident with “And I don’t rent cars,” “Ethics Officer,” and me? I think Cars is taking some time off for her own reasons, and I hope she’ll soon feel ready to rejoin us, maybe under a new identity if that’s what she wants to do. She was trying to do an intervention on Ethics Officer, to straighten him out — a quest that was doomed to fail anyway since trolls and freezoners come with really thick armor. She was deeply emotionally invested in the success of this plan, which emerged from back-channel conversations that I did not know about. When I pointed out that banning Ethics Officer was Tony’s prerogative, not hers, Cars felt sabotaged, had a meltdown, picked up her toys and ran home. Her reaction was a complete surprise to me. I had expected that Cars would carry on but hopefully dial back on the part about telling people they must “leave this board and never come back.” I’m sorry that I upset her, but I don’t see that I did anything wrong. Your allegation that her departure was deliberately provoked is false.

              The third-party “law” was invented by Hubbard so that he could shift blame to third parties for whatever was wrong with Scientology. Hubbard hated “Q&A” and “reasonableness” because he wanted instant compliance to his orders and programs with no questioning or backtalk. To keep Scientologists working, they are trained in Hubbard’s PTS/SP theories, the third-party “law,” and unreasonableness. Your use of these words suggests that you’re not yet entirely free of the Hubbard implant.

              Anonymous, your lucid and insightful posts have earned immense respect, as I told Globetrotter when he was making accusations against you elsewhere in this thread. Although I respect you very much and value your opinion, I am going to make up my own mind about Globetrotter. And if you storm off and quit because of something I post, I’ll be really disappointed.

            • Anonymous

              “Your allegation that her departure was deliberately provoked is false.”

              “The third-party “law” was invented by Hubbard so that he could shift blame to third parties for whatever was wrong with Scientology.”

              “Your use of these words suggests that you’re not yet entirely free of the Hubbard implant.”

              All of these statements are nonsense. But nice try.

              As with most things in Scientology, the Third Party Law was forwarded as a “warning” to Scientologists by Mankind’s Greatest Friend, but in fact was used RELENTLESSLY against them in Ethics and by the GO / OSA. There is extensive confidential church training on how to use the tech of third party to sow confusion and discord among church “enemies” and critics, as you should well know.

              What do you think is happening when non-enturbulation orders, disconnection orders,” Industry of Death” crusades, SP hate websites, Squirrel Buster raids (et al.) are activated? That is all third-party tech, turned on it’s ear.

              Lastly, one does not have to be a knowing player in a particular role where third-party tech is employed to create discord. Almost all successful GO / OSA op’s are / were facilitated (in part) by people who had no idea whatsoever that they were unwitting participants in a larger, usually confidential drama. In many cases the participants thought they were furthering a laudable purpose (like being reasonable about BS) when in fact they were unknowingly being played as expendable dupes.

              I’ll suggest that it is YOU who is “not free of the implants.”

              Is that by choice or accident?

              And by the way…I would have bet many millions of dollars that you would eventually pop out of lurk mode and “confront” me with something like you wrote above. I’m quite aware of patterns on this board and elsewhere…bullshit detection is really not that hard.

              Please do “make up your own mind” about Globetrotter. I care not.

              But don’t think for one second that your post created even the slightest chance that I will “storm off and quit.”

              You aren’t even close to capable of causing that.

            • grundoon

              “unknowingly being played as expendable dupes”

              So David Miscavige is pulling my strings at a distance with his mighty OT powazz? (Or standing right behind me? BOO!) I am unknowingly PTS to OSA and the Squirrel Busters? And Hubbard was right about that third-party claptrap? Ok, got it. (… backs away)

              “Please do “make up your own mind” about Globetrotter. I care not.”

              I wasn’t actually asking for your permission. Or to care. But thanks.

              “But don’t think for one second that your post created even the slightest chance that I will storm off and quit. You aren’t even close to capable of causing that.”

              Yes, that’s exactly what I said. Thanks for confirming it. That’s one more subject on which we agree. If you left, it would be a real loss, since you actually make a substantial contribution here, and you appear to have real insider experience to back it up.

            • Anonymous

              It really is quite silly to be having this discussion like two old drunks in a back alley, on the wrong side of town, at night, as no one else is ever going to read this or care.

              So I’m going to drop out at this point from this thread…it is not adding any value to my understanding of Scientology and it’s malevolent influences, nor will it add to the understanding of others, due to the days old aged invisibility of the comment thread.

              I will close with this: the forwarding of malevolent intent can be both knowing and unknowing. That reality is at the absolute heart of the the understanding of the fields of intelligence, propaganda, PR and statecraft. I’m well versed in all four fields and see what I see. I stand by all the comments I have made earlier…your mocking / confused paraphrasing and deliberate misunderstandings aside.

            • grundoon

              Ok. See you around.

    • Scientology thanks you for your Cash, aufwiedershen.

      -Ron

      • Jon Atack

        This is the Governing Policy of Scientology – according to the Founder.

    • Baby

      Oh welcome Katie..thank you for coming in. We are open 24/7 and Tony offers a safe place to land. So glad that you are out Katie.. sigh.. So very glad xo.. baby

    • Globetrotter

      I will say that the chances of someone achieving great financial success are probably the same regardless if they use Scientology or not. I don’t think applying the Scientology principles improves one’s chance or reduces it either.

      What I do see though is Scientologists holding up successful people like their success was entirely due to Scientology and keeping quiet about the many others who are failing – and attributing their failure to them only.

      The typical attitude is “if you succeed, it was us. if you fail, it was you”.

      • Jon Atack

        As with all destructive cults.

  • Narapoid

    “Steve Hassan, has long spoken about the cult-identity that is grafted onto the authentic identity (if you want to impress people at parties, find Flavil Yeakley’s paper on cloning of identity in cults). As he says, you can shift a person away from their steely-eyed zeal, simply by reminding them of their life before the cult. ”

    I hope none take offense at what Captain Kirk did with Hubbard somewhere near Target Two…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo1zbUwSNWg

  • Sergeant Pepper

    Jon is absolutely right and his tactic is employed to mesmerizing effect by Tory, Mark, and hopefully others.

    • DodoTheLaser
      • Sergeant Pepper

        That’s where Tory learned it, isn’t it?

        • DodoTheLaser

          Yes. Andreas was wise and kind to Tory and the rest is a history.

          • HappypantsDance

            The story about Andreas and Tory still gives me the warm fuzzies every time I think about it, and it’s a reminder just how life-changing one person’s kindness can be for another person.

      • that’s because Andreas is a reincarnation of Ghandi. In spite of being the size of the Governator (in a good way)

        Fun Andreas anecdote: as we were protesting (probably the Tottenham Court Rd shop, photo above) Andreas visited and went inside. Some bright spark deided that Andreas had to leave, Now! The clam pushed Andreas to make this happen and Andreas looked at him and said “you like touching me, don’t you?” – that made the clam step back 🙂

  • Xique

    Of all the family members who tried to get through to me and there were quite a few, the most surprising one of all was my firstborn . I had just filed our taxes and left a copy on the kitchen table. She decided to peek at it, being a curious member of the family. She incidentally had just graduated from her University with a degree in finance so when she read some of the figures / deductibles, she was sure she was seeing a typo. Her instant reaction was that this has to be a mistake. She bravely addressed the matter with me. She was reluctant to admit that she had snooped but more worried that the tax return was an accurate accounting of the previous year. Needless to say we had loans out for her education, large ones in fact, and yet these donations/deductions on the return were for insane amounts. She stopped me in my tracks. I wasn’t happy about the whole thing either but I’d been complacent and had more or less agreed to all of it. It was my first honest conversation I’d had with my daughter about the insanity and the criminality of this whole religion thing, “this Scientology crap” as she would call it. She was never so absolutely clear about how wrong something was until she spoke to me that particular day. When your own kid wakes you up it’s really rather unbelievable.

    • Hamtaro

      This is a very touching story. Thanks for sharing it with all of us.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I am glad your daughter got through.

    • Xique

      Did I forget to mention how much I love her?

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Give her this…..from the Bunker.

        • Xique

          She deserves them! Thanks

    • Ardent

      Wow! Great kid you raised!

    • http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/mclean1.html

      Nan McLean: My daughter will tell you a very interesting thing she told me, she is the one and only that didn’t come in. She said “Mother, I have always known you to be the most honest person I have ever known, and now you’re telling me it’s ok to lie for Scientology.” That’s when I began to look. God that still hurts. […]

      • richelieu jr

        Wow, if that doesn’t get to the absolute essential in one sentence…

        • I think that part of the emotion are the terrible what ifs: What if she had hooked her daughter in with the rest of the family, since she was the last person outside who could have woken her up? What if auditing or sec checks had found that she was PTS to her SP daughter?

      • Xique

        Like Nan I have a daughter who loves her mother enough to say it like it is. It’s never easy to tell your own mother that she can do better, but that’s what happened. Fortunately , for Nan and for myself, we listened.

        • beauty for ashes

          I can’t help but think, what a good mom too. I can tell you respect and love your children.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    I loved the post.

    I don’t see many Scientologists anymore. Locally, they are barely a statistic. I rarely see them in front of the future Ideal Org or even in front of their temporary offices.

    I think back to phrases that made me think about the whole mess when I was about to take the plunge to staff member. A good friend of my brother told me quite simply, “Variety is the spice of life”. A dear friend said, “I wish it was true but it is not”. Another friend said again quite simply, “I am from Missouri”. Is that phrase still in the lexicon? My mother said, “I think you are making a big mistake”. All these people spoke calmly and with caring. They did not try to engage me in debate.

    Things that didn’t work– My father yelling at me, saying that I should learn a trade. My sister, already learning the newspeak replying, “Great!”. I guess she didn’t know what else to say. My other brother, who understood that I was troubled, saying that although he didn’t believe Scientology to be true it could still do me some good. Others, who knew nothing about Scientology except that it seemed like a dangerous cult tried to debate me. That didn’t help either.

    Here is what I do now. When a body router comes up to me with a leaflet I respond, “If you really want to talk about his I’ll happily buy you a coffee and a donut and we can sit down and talk”. I think the approach is sound. These people are starved for things like coffee and donuts and they get a chance to pontificate. Unfortunately it has never worked. The zombies are too scared to give up their posts on the street. I have smiled at said that doesn’t sound like “total freedom” to me, but to no avail.

    Maybe my comments have made them think and the short conversation on the street actually does do them some good. Of course, I have no way of really knowing. Sometimes teachers will be told years later that a short comment which they have long since forgotten really got through to a student. And to this point in time, now over forty years later, I have never told any of those people who made me think, how important their comments were in my time of need.

    Those good people were calm, kind, honest and didn’t lecture me.

    I will keep trying.

    • chukicita

      You’re planting seeds. They might not leave today but will remember the conversation. And the coffee and donut.

    • Stacy

      This is an awesome story. Thanks for sharing it.

    • Ardent

      I’m not an American, and I know what ‘I am from Missouri” means. I think it is still (barely) in ordinary use…Maybe? It is a good phrase, I think.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        The full phrase is “I am from Missouri. Show me.” I have also heard Missouri referred to as the “show me” state. I have no idea why it would apply to Missouri more than any other place. I assume that the people of Missouri, at least at one time, thought of themselves as practical, sensible people and the phrase reflected it. Even when I was a kid, I rarely heard anyone saying it.

        And here we are: http://www.trivia-library.com/b/origins-of-sayings-im-from-missouri-youve-got-to-show-me.htm

        Big Surprise– “In the late 1800s, Westerners liked to refer to Missouri as the “Show Me State.” The implication was that Missourians were a little slow and not very bright.”

        • ze moo

          Also that you have to have proof of what ever you are selling. Traditionally, Missourians don’t buy much snake oil.

          • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

            I went to the internet to check out the “Church of Scientology: Missouri. The frustrating thing is that they won’t say anything about themselves. They only state the standard nonsense from the parent church. It does seem to be an impressive building, though.

            I checked the reviews. Except for Michael Jenne, it seems that the people of Missouri continue the scepticism of their forefathers.

            Thomas Chapman
            This is an excellent comedy club. Truly inspiring to all up and coming comedians.
            LikeLike · · about 6 months ago
            5 people like this.

            Michael Jenne
            Great church. I have been attending for well over 15 years. The staff there are always willing to help and all are welcome to attend.
            LikeLike · · about 12 months ago
            4 people like this.

            Roy Jones
            It is a cult for people of low IQ who want to waste their time on silly sci-fi fairy tales. Google “Scientology disconnection” or “Disease in the Sea Org.”
            LikeLike · · about 7 months ago
            3 people like this.

            Ed Chan
            Scientology is the place to be if you want to squander $500,000 on Scientology nonsense, be part of the cultroaches, and love throwing your life away.
            Remember it’s easy to join Scientology, it’s just hard to get free of these cultroaches!
            Ask for the all about Xenu Pamphlet, if they don’t hand it to you, run!!!

        • stillgrace2

          I am very familiar with the expression “I am from Missouri. Show me.”
          On a family road trip once, I asked my Dad, what does THAT mean?
          (refresh)

      • richelieu jr

        Ardent, I was gonna ask the same question (I’m not an American, but I did spend a big part of my childhood there, and I still didn’t know!)

        Now that I see Korgo’s reply, I remember that Missouri is the ‘Show Me’ state,which I always hoped referred to boobies.

    • richelieu jr

      I know how you feel Korgo. I have recounted my few and feeble attempts to engage these poor people in conversation on these boards and am often given a lot of stroking and ‘attaboys!’, but I am far from optimistic that it did any good at all (besides possible earn the poor persona sec-check…)

      I haven’t used any of the things that have worked for the people on, for example J Swift and his Wife’s shows…. That said, I’d try and plant a kernel of doubt. So you can believe anything you want? Is there anything you believe that you would be afraid to tell your colleagues?

      Oh, questions are welcomed! Great! Is there any question you might get in trouble for asking?

      And my current fave:

      So, is there anything you disagree with Hubbard on?
      With Miscavige? (they assure me there is something, though generally do not say what)…

      So, w if we walk through that door you can jsut openly say that?

      ‘Og course!’

      “OK, let’s go I have some questions as well!”

      All this in the hopes that they will ask themselves– “Why am I lying? What WOULD Happen?”
      And then, if they do wonder– hoping they’ll either do it, or just get a niggling doubt planted every time it crosses their mind…

      Still, known success rate after 20+ years?

      Zero.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        Jon Atack’s article here has made me think.

        I have picketed, leafleted, written and had published two letters in two newspapers, talked to Sceintologists, and, of course, engaged in discourse on the internet. I haven’t expected to change anyone’s mind with any of these things. It takes a long time to turn someone into a Scientologist. I can’t get them back with a few sentences.

        But I am thinking now that it may do some long term good. Maybe my comment or yours will be the one that makes somebody think again and disengage. Something almost always makes them turn away from Scientology. Maybe what we do is part of that. In some cases maybe we are the decisive element. It may not take for years but what we do may work in the long term. No one has ever told me that I am the guy that got someone out of a greedy cult, but just the same, maybe I have.

        I am also thinking about how different today’s environment is from the way it was when I was involved with the cult. Back then, there was no collective memory. Anyone who did remember last year’s newspaper story could be accused of not having their facts right. Today, the weight of evidence against Scientology is a click away and overwhelming. A mind would have to be washed like jeans in clorox to believe the nonsense. Back then, I was very foolish too, but if the information that is around today was around then, I really don’t think I would have paid Scientology any attention.

        I just thought of an analogy. It is a bit like cigarettes. My generation understood that they were harmful. But today it is understood at a whole different level. The foolishness a new smoker shows in 2014 is nothing like the foolishness of a 1964 smoker. So we have far fewer smokers.

        Maybe what we do does pay off with a small percentage of people over time. I’d like to think so.

        • richelieu jr

          Well, that’s the hope anyway, and what is the alternative, really?

  • Ken Dandar’s story (and the stories of the trials he helped bring against the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology) should be told. Because there cannot be justice as long as lawyers are not able to assist those with valid complaints.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Things like this really shake your faith (as if there is any to be had) in the justice system.

    • NOLAGirl

      I can honestly see how this situation might put other lawyers off of a Co$ case, just in case. It really makes me sick, the thought that someone who HAS a case couldn’t get or might have a hard time getting representation because of fear. Imagine if this were Ray Jeffrey or Ryan Hamilton. 🙁

  • flexible

    Well, nobody likes to be made wrong. Nobody. Especially when one thinks their choice to become a member of SCN was supposed to have meant increased abilities, tools to help ones fellow etc. So friendliness and kindness from one human to another, I would think, would go a lot further than calling them zombie eyed idiots who have wasted years of their lives and harmed others in the process. That sort of behavior just reinforces what they have been brainwashed to believe about WOGS and the outside world. Showing more common sense, decency, and kindness, than that which they experience inside on staff, be it org, S.O. or as public, would for sure help plant some strong seeds. I know that when I got out, the help I got, the support from fellow ex staff was hugely helpful to me in my sifting and sorting through what was true and what wasn’t.

    • While I never tried to reach the clams when I was protesting, I still remember my first protest. The bOrg (San Fran) obviously was not used to being protested[1] and sent out the staff (I guess) to counter protest. The staff even had flyers to hand out. One clam dropped his stack of leaflets (while mingling with protesters) and was momentarily startled that the protesters quickly and helpfully gathered up the clam’s leaflets and gave them back to him. There was a quick glimpse of genuine surpriuse before the TRs set back in.

      [1] actually, they would not have had a lot of Internet based protests, that much I’m sure of. The response from bOrgs in terms of sending clams out to mingle varied from year to year and from bOrg to bOrg. While I’m no stranger to flattering us protesters, I honestly don’t know how much influence we did have (or were perceived to have) on the clams sent forth from the bOrg to counter the protests

      • Stacy

        It’s so sad that a supposed church that’s supposed to be the best thing out there so abuses its members that they are surprised by simple manners types of kindness. It’s this type of story that really emphasizes the depth of the wrongness of CoS

  • BirdsFlying

    What got me out of Scientology for good was the last time I went to the local org. My intent was to purchase the “new” ethics book (turned out it had a new cover), which I did accomplish. Additionally, I had been on staff at one point a couple of years before.

    It was totally surreal.

    I walked in after 5:00 during the meal break and the person at reception proceeded to make it like I had just walked into the middle of a commercial – for OEC Volume 0 (I already had 2 of them). This was the “new” one, even though it was the same one that I already had two of. I kept saying I had come to purchase the “Ethics” book. I also had taken the precaution of bringing only enough money to buy the the “Ethics” book. It did not matter that I already had two of OEC Volume 0 and said so.

    Finally the person got the message that I was there only for the “Ethics” book. The ED eventually came out to process the transaction on the computer and took me into the back where the computer was. The computer was extreme/y slow so there was plenty of time for the ED to engage me in conversation about life in general and what I was doing now. When asking about what I was doing now and why I was not currently on staff auditing, she used an LRon technique that I cannot remember the name of. It involved getting the answer that it was not auditing, her sniffing derisively about my decision and me becoming shamed into agreeing with her that I was not doing the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

    Except that after her sniffing derisively, I said that what I was doing was really interesting and something that I had wanted to do for a long time. That was followed by a couple of sentences from her about how I should be on staff, which still elicited no shamed behavior from me. At that point, her mind apparently could not process the unexpected response, as this was supposed to work all the time. She went to her fall back position – screaming. Since it was break time, not many people were in the org, but the Ethics Officer was. He came around and observed the scene without communicating with me. I did not scream back.

    Eventually, I left with the uneasy feeling that something was not right about getting yelled at for buying a book. It was not until the next day that I realized how silly it was and about rolled on the floor laughing. I was still laughing when the Ethics Officer called me to ask if everything was all right.

    That was the last time I entered the org and the last bit of money they got from me.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      YaY…………a good ol footbullet story. I love it.

    • Xique

      From not funny to completely funny, so great. Freeingly funny!

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Great story….

    • richelieu jr

      That cleansing laugh was well worth the price of gettng the same book again (and the bonus dressing down).

      What is so funny is that they would be surprised this doesn’t work! Ha! Welcome to the real world, you silly Scilons!

  • NOLAGirl

    Good question Tony. American Bar Association, where the hell are you?? You aren’t there just to yank lawyers licenses when they’re naughty, you’re supposed to be there to help them too. Any of our Bunker legal minds know if there is anything they can do to help Mr. Dandar?

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I find it totally unacceptable that a State Judge and Federal Judge can be used against each other as mere tools by Scientology….and they allowed it.

      • NOLAGirl

        YES! I also find it totally unacceptable that the rest of legal community seems to have just put their hands over their eyes and are walking around saying “It’s dark in here!” Grrrrrrrrrr

  • Mark

    Adding to Jon’s highly cogent suggestions on how to plant the seeds of doubt in a Scientologist, this video of Steve Hassan being interviewed by stalwart anti-Jehovah’s Witness campaigner ‘John Cedars’ (Lloyd Evans) after the recent ‘Undue Influence’ conference in London might also prove helpful:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoFr9dcd1Rk&list=PLkzrUMKiXNLJGj4RX1JY3CaIfYObLDwhb

  • Sid

    Ultimately the church is its own worst enemy. The lies, yelling, demand for money, and whatever trigger a person has that pushes them away more and more, until finally they take the step of looking on the internet.

    • MaxSpaceman

      The Internet?!? NO! Listen! Don’t look! Listen!

      • Ardent

        Oh, man. That crazy beggar! The horror of that fiasco…

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        That one scared me…..an event that is hardly mentioned anymore.

        • Zer0

          Didn’t they castrate themselves? Crazzy

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            I don’t know about that but they simultaneously committed suicide with poisons lying in bed under a purple blanket with Nike sneakers on……going to meet the comet.

            As reasonable as some of the other things we discus here.

            • Zer0

              Before they committed suicide, the men sought out surgical castration procedures in Mexico

            • Cosmo Pidgeon

              That sounds like a great idea….Probably made suicide more appealing…Glad I missed that cult.

      • Juicer77

        Their website is still up, and there are a handful who didn’t commit suicide who still believe.

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      The constant demand for more…more…do more…give more….you’re out ethics..do more.

      • Sid

        You are actually behind in your quota of comment responses. Route yourself to ethics.

    • DeElizabethan

      I know, isn’t it grand that MisCavadimwit is helping push his own members out?

  • Groucherooney

    There’s a GREAT video / short film called something like, “Mind Control Made Easy.” Yes I think that is the title.
    It is definitely worth the time of any Bunkerites who have about 10 minutes to spare.

    And not only is it a very cool video, but it works wonders as a deprogramming tool. A few months ago I came on this site with some concern that a friend here in NYC had joined one of these unsavory “Large-group awareness training” groups. So many of the activities she would tell me the group was involving her in sounded suspiciously like Scientology techniques.
    Well it turned out to be a huge mistake as I was immediately attacked as some sort of troll or time-waster (ironically by some here who appear to have less to do day-in-day-out than the average indoor cat).

    Anyway, I forwarded the girl this video and she told me it opened her eyes – BIG TIME. She had left her group about a month later and luckily she said they were not (yet) stalking her to rejoin.
    Czech it out:

    • Groucherooney
    • Ardent

      Sorry you had a difficult time when you first entered the Bunker. I did, too, for that matter. But it got straightened out. There can be anxiety about trolls and other abusers – and there was a doozy about a year ago or so – so, again, sorry if you took some heat. Thanks for posting the video.

  • Techie

    Everyone who has commented early today has made excellent points. The only thing I want to add is to reaffirm as a former died-in-the-wool hardcore member is that you are not going to convince anyone that Hubbard was wrong about anything just in conversation. As a member your attachment to Hubbard and his whacky ideas is part of your very being. The chains are tight, because how else can you even remotely justify the damage you are doing, to others, to your own life goals and dreams? If Hubbard is wrong, you are wrong. And not just a little wrong, life-destroying love-killing, heart-rending bank account zeroing wrong big time. It is night-and-day, black-and-white, 100% polarized and you are not going to kick it with reason, logic, ridicule or embarrassment. That being said, you can do a lot of good by being kind and understanding, by pointing out by example that the outside world is not as frightening as Hubbard tried to make it seem. You can tap into their former dreams by asking simple questions anyone would ask. This will open a crack, just don’t think you will get conversions. I have forgotten where I read this but there are definite stages to recovery from Scientology. If I can recall, the first stage is something like “Hubbard is great but Miscavige (or a local executive or the Sea Org etc.) is terrible and have screwed it all up”. From there you can go to a blow without touching the hard core Hubbard beliefs. This would be Scientology to Indie. This is a lot better for the individual though he is still in a straight jacket of belief. As an Indie on the loose in the real world (I almost wrote “wog world” like I would have years ago!) they will meet others who are not True Believers and the hard core will gradually crack away. So a possible approach could be just a calm good-natured one, and if any complaints come up point out that things are not as successful as they should be. Any Scientologist has to agree with that. At that point I would just back off and stay in touch. If you are talking with a loved one or someone you know, you could point out the sacrifices they are making, not saying “is this really worth it” but implying it. Maybe you could ask how well they are doing, is their health a concern, finances, whatever they may be worried about. You would think it would be obvious to a staff member that they are not doing well and are not likely to improve, but it is not at all obvious to them. As long as they are convinced that they are helping the world the sacrifices seem like a necessary evil. The crack in the facade is when they realize that they are not really helping because the subject has been hijacked, perverted or weakened. Then you can get a blow. I have to say I thank Dave Miscavige for running a similar campaign on me. Except of course he wasn’t remotely gentle or kind about it. At Gold we were told repeatedly in a thousand ways that we were incompetent and were preventing Scientology from expanding. Our org board was floating up to Dave to handle (he literally moved the post name tags on the magnetic org board up to the RTC label to demonstrate this). We were sleeping while he stayed up late to edit the Basics. We were screwing up projects, wasting money, mowing the lawns wrong, killing the trees, anything you can think of. We could not write a video script, edit a video, direct a film, mix a sound track, etc. etc. on and on, he had to do it all while “handling the SPs” at the same time! I have a great tolerance for privation, sleeping in plain dirt basements or staying up for days straight did not stop me from trying to help. The idea that I was going through all that on rice and beans but was still not really helping was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I blew. This angle could work for a lot of people. Are they really helping? Are there lots of new people coming in? Is there a packed out full L Ron Hubbard Way for the next great event? Is the course room full? Where is the Briefing Course full of new auditors in training? Don’t try to dis Hubbard. Use it against him. Hubbard said Scientology was a “workable technology” that would work only as long as it was pure. If it isn’t working it must not be pure. Of course as outsiders we know it can never really “work” except as a way to get moar money. But you will never convince a Scientologist of that. You can convince him he is doing it wrong, though. This could be the way out for a lot of lost souls.

    • Eileen

      Thank you for not using the “wog world” term. Real world is much better.

      • April

        And more accurate. 🙂

    • DeElizabethan

      Excellent advice Techie. Questions like you suggest are what will get them to look at themselves and at the organization. Questions they are programed not to think or talk about will stick or sink in their head, and I truly believe that they will see some doubt or truth. One won’t see instant gains, tho, it will fester and help them to look further.

  • BosonStark

    I don’t know about shouting “Xenu” but I think that holding up a sign that says Xenu can serve a function in protest. I haven’t been to a protest because I don’t live near an org, but I admire the people who have used that sign.

    For one thing, it plants the image of how it is spelled. Because of the Internet, it’s a good search term to start out with. It’s also great for people driving or walking by. I believe the Xenu story played a part in Astra Woodcraft’s motivation to leave, along with her father giving her Barefaced Messiah to read.

    I can go along with the approach Jon or Steve suggests as being the most reliable, but I also think there is a curve happening, as the Internet grows and more people learn how it can be used. It’s something you can rely on to look for a variety of answers, even for people in cults, or more established religions for that matter.

    For centuries, people relied on their parents, friends, teachers, political leaders, or what they read in books. But books were often difficult to find for certain subjects, and very difficult if you needed to search for the answer to a simple question, e.g., why is the sky blue, or what is Scientology?

    When I was young, instead of the Dummies books, there were the “All About” books, which kids relied on to learn all about birds, or whatever. There was no All About Scientology book, but now all about Scientology is a simple search away, along with information about recombinant DNA, or whatever you want to know.

    I’ve been fascinated by that question of what to say, or what was said, or what happened to wake someone up. But I’m equally fascinated by the changing dynamic of that process because of the Internet.

    Scientology is supposed to be about doing. Clams have mentioned how they didn’t get anything out of other relgisions, like Buddhism, because it wasn’t “applied.” In Scientology, you can touch the wall, and do other things, like have cognitions and write wins.

    Well, the Internet is applied too. It’s about doing, much more so than TV or even reading a book. You ask the questions, get answers, ask more questions, and explore in an interactive manner. If you want to see how something is done, you don’t have to wait to see it to be programmed on TV, you just search for it on the web. I wanted to see something specific about a surgical procedure, just out of curiosity. It took me a few seconds and I was watching it being done and explained.

    So, I think Scientologists are eventually going to want to see how auditing is done, or a what a clam learns in a communication course, and everything, before they pay for it. This will sink the cult, and eliminate the secrecy and fraud.

    We’re not at that stage yet, where everyone feels comfortable using the Internet. And of course, for people in the cult, it is entheta. The answers for those cult members are in Dr. Hubtard’s books, and processes, and they’re more likely to get answers by traveling out of body than going on the Internet. But this will change. People want real answers, and if there is no answer to something, they want to know that too.

    It’s ironic that Sciloontology started out with people looking for answers in science, but now it is only for the most extreme magical thinkers. Astrology has probably followed a similar pattern. It was complex and sophisticated, but now is regarded as baloney by all but magical thinkers.

  • 1subgenius

    In case it hasn’t been posted yet:

    HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENTOLOGIST.

    Michael Leonard Tilse

    http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/16.htm

    • aquaclara

      This is a beautiful piece.
      Thanks, Michael (and 1sub).

  • Truthiwant

    Catholics become Protestants and Protestants become Catholics. They are all Christians but they have a slightly different view of Christianity.

    Now, I fully appreciate that people leave Corporate Scientology and become Indies, but these people are basically still Scientologists, but without the fundraising.

    I have yet to hear of some Scientologists who decided to start something like ‘The Reformed Church of Scientology’, because they clashed with some of Ron Hubbard’s key facts, like, for instance, disagreeing that Xenu invaded Teegeeack 75 million years ago, because they believe he really invaded this planet 95 million years ago. Or questioning Hubbard’s Tone Scale, because, for example, Postulates, 30.0 and Games 22.0 should be inverted, or perhaps disagreeing that Sea Org members should sign a billion year contract, when really 500 million years would be quite sufficient.

    Oh dear. Maybe I’ll have to start ‘The First Evangelical and Episcopal Church of Scientology myself.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Why are there never “second” churches?

      • Truthiwant

        Because a nut case can only get away with it once.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Actually, there are a lot of “Second Churches” out there just Hearsay it and you will find them.

      • ze moo

        The Indies keep a low profile, anything else invites a nasty confrontation with Corporate $cientology and Davy learned from the Master about shutting down competition.

        http://www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/enemy_list.html

        There have been a lot of ‘companies’ and individuals who tried the Indie route, they became ‘enemies’ and were harassed and sued and either shut down or went totally underground.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        You’re so dry…!

      • DeElizabethan

        Right Bury, like banks. First, 2nd/third and stuff like that?

        • Robert Eckert

          I bank at Fifth Third.

          • grundoon

            I drank the third fifth.

    • stillgrace2

      Thank you so much for sharing your story of “getting out”. I enjoyed reading it. I have my own “getting out” story, except it was not from scientology. I was struck by your first paragraph:

      “Catholics become Protestants and Protestants become Catholics. They are all Christians but they have a slightly different view of Christianity.”

      I just wanted to go on record as saying that is not true where I came from. I was born into a very zealous, rigid Catholic community. I suffered emotional, mental, and physical damage from the experience, which is off-topic, and suitable for another day.

      My point is that it was absolutely drummed into me (with repetition and force reminiscent of old Ron himself) that the Catholic Church was the ONLY legitimate and true church. It was the ONLY way to salvation, and that ALL protestants were hated by God and doomed to burn forever in the fires of hell. The ONLY people that could dwell in heaven were true Catholics. There was no “slightly different view”.

      The threat of “ex-communication” (which included burning in hell and other atrocities forever) was used to control any child that questioned the “fact” that protestants were wrong in their beliefs, and not working for the goals of Satan himself.

      I eventually broke away. I needed counseling during the process. During a session where I was describing the attention I received during the attempts of the Catholic community to “return me to the church”, I was told that I was being “love-bombed”. That stopped me dead in my tracks. I had heard that expression before, but only in connection with cults.

      As always when I describe my Catholic experiences here in the bunker (and out of respect for Midwest Mom), I hereby state: “This was my Catholic experience, your mileage may vary.”

      • Truthiwant

        That’s a very poignant story and there is no doubt that the techniques used to make you stay in this Catholic environment are similar to those used in Scientology. No religion has a clean slate, and certainly not the Catholic church.

      • Missionary Kid

        I had somewhat the same experience, but as a protestant. I wasn’t told that Catholics were going to hell, but it was strongly implied that they were.

        Since I went to public school, I knew that a lot of kids were Catholic, but theology rarely came up. I do remember Jimmy Daugherty stating that the reason Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church was that he wanted to get married. The lack of understanding of the issues involved flooed me. The 4th grade teacher stopped the discussion.

        After all, we actually read the bible, so in our hubris,we thought we knew god’s will.

        Eventually, I realized that while we didn’t have a hierarchy telling us what to believe, that we were just as deluded.

        • stillgrace2

          During my childhood, I believed that Martin Luther was a devil on earth. Now I understand that mess was all about indulgences in the Catholic Church … buying your salvation. Kinda sound familiar?

          We were never encouraged to read the bible at all. Selections from the bible that we read were carefully controlled and excerpted as “readings” in our missals, as part of Mass. I never saw a bible or owned one until many years after I left.

          • Missionary Kid

            It’s my understanding that the policy about reading the bible has changed.

            We also had our readings which were selected to reinforce a particular part of the dogma. There was, however, a bunch of bible study and prayer meetings. While we rarely prayed on our knees, it was still done at formal prayer sessions.

            In Christianity, the faithful, IMO, pick and choose which parts of the bible they’re going to follow. Sometimes, they follow the old testament, and sometimes not. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but fundamentalist protestants cite all sorts of OT scripture to justify their stand against it.

            There’s a lot more written in the bible about divorce than homosexuality, and the OT calls for very serious penalties, such as stoning.

            • stillgrace2

              Divorce? What’s that? (joke)

        • HillieOnTheBeach

          I mistakenly took communion. Mother told me a minor scandal ensued,

          • Missionary Kid

            Yeah, if you take it unworthily, you’re supposed to go to hell, IIRC.

            • HillieOnTheBeach

              Good to know the grown ups had THE parameters to determine worthiness or damn to hell my 7-year-old self.

            • Seven is the supposed age of reason in old school Catholicism. No more first ring of hell innocence for you.

            • Missionary Kid

              (Sarcastic) Wasn’t that special?

      • Captain Howdy

        I grew up agnostic in the Outer Sunset in S.F that was at least 90% catholic. They weren’t generally speaking the most opened minded people I ever met. In fact they made my life hell.

        • Sherbet

          I’m glad you accept me, Howdy, knowing I willingly drag that Catholic ball and chain.

          • Captain Howdy

            Many of my best friends have been Catholic..at least they were Catholic..Ha!

            • Sherbet

              Same here!

  • Ms. B. Haven

    Here’s what worked and didn’t work for me when getting out (for good, finally). It was pre-internet, so those resources weren’t available to me. I had insulated myself in the world of scientology so I had few friends and acquaintances outside the cult. My other world was work. That was about it, work and scientology.

    While Jon’s advice when planting seeds of doubt – to use Hubbard’s line about more communication – is useful, what I find more useful is Hubbard’s admonishment of “look, don’t listen”. That is what worked in getting me out the door. No amount of confrontation or intervention would have worked with me while I was in. Why? I would not have been able to justify my position or beliefs and would have to admit that perhaps I could be wrong. Few people want to admit that they are wrong (even Grade IV completions), let alone admit that they have been taken by a world class con. A more gentle approach was what I needed and since I had insulated myself from others in the outside world, that approach had to come from within. I took a short break after completing some courses. I decided to do something fun so I took some sea kayaking lessons. That activity provided enough space and freedom for me to relax a little and be able to stand back and take a look. So I looked and didn’t listen. I saw that the Org I was at just went St. Hill size and there was all sorts of hoopla around that. What I saw at the same time was that if this was all there was to going St. Hill size, this was pretty pathetic. There was also a big push to buy books from local retailers like B. Dalton and Walton Books in a effort to get Hubbard’s books to higher levels on whatever best seller list. I thought to myself, why would there have to be a stat push like this. If these books are so great they should arrive at whatever level they do on their own merit. A co-worker told me his wife wanted to go to a dianetics seminar and he refused to let her go. He didn’t even know I was a scientologist. I was forced to ask myself why I was so ashamed to even let it be known that I was a scientologist. I can’t remember how I found out, but I knew about Int Base and I knew where it was. I was giving a couple of sea org guys a ride and was telling them what I knew. They were fascinated and wanted me to drive them by the place. I thought to myself, why would a mere org public like me know something so secretive when genuine sea org members don’t know what is going on. And, why all the secrecy in the first place. I started seeing all kinds of things that didn’t make sense to me. That was it, things just didn’t make sense anymore once I was away from the stifling influence of the Org. Once I took that break, I never looked back. I had study materials in a locker at the Org and didn’t go back for them. I had a voice recorder on my phone and didn’t ever pick up if it was a scientologist. A new job opportunity came up around that time and I left the area and any danger of chance contact by a scientologist. I moved several times after that and the phone calls and mail quit coming (until about 2 years ago when the stalking bastards found me). Then I found the internet and pretty much all of my suspicions were confirmed. Scientology is nothing but a scam. Sure auditing works on some people some of the time, but placebos have been known to cure all sorts of ailments too. The mind is a powerful and mysterious thing and is fully capable of enslaving oneself or freeing oneself. Scam artists know this and are able to pull off some outrageous scams. Hubbard was a world class con artist and a pathetic example of a human being. Nothing more. But, I would still take his advice on this: LOOK, DON’T LISTEN.

    • ze moo

      “Sure auditing works on some people some of the time, but placebos have been known to cure all sorts of ailments too.” Well said, Ms. B.

      • Ardent

        I agree, Moo. That was a very good post, Ms B. Thanks.

    • Ruby

      “I was forced to ask myself why I was so ashamed to even let it be known that I was a scientologist.”
      Same here! That is a sure indicator that one needs to do some heavy soul searching.

    • DeElizabethan

      Thank you Ms. B for your personal insights and feelings, said so very well.

    • richelieu jr

      Ms. B you done said a mouthful!

    • Finally Free

      Amen!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    The Xenu story is explanatory.

    No one thinks that if not for the Wall of Fire/4th Dynamic Engram supposed tragedy, would today’s Bridge to Total Freedom have 5 of the 8 OT levels devoted to dealing with body thetans.

    The Xenu story explains an engram so bad it caused the body thetan problem.

    There are layers of understanding to Scientology that the members are no let in on.

    They go years without understanding their religion’s beliefs and what those beliefs have to do with their practices of auditing and the frankly exorcism they do but never will label as what it is, exorcism.

    It takes some thinking about the even details of what Scientologists have as theory and the Xenu story explains why body thetans are a problem, and why OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are even done.

    Agree, I have seen almost no one with a grasp of the significance of the Xenu story to the Scientology beliefs other than to give the short ridicule version.

    The expanded understanding version of the Xenu story explains Hubbard’s own beliefs to the end of his life.

    He was doing OT 7 still during the final months of his life, trying to rid himself of the body thetan that is told about both in Lawrence Wright’s book’s final pages and in Marty Rathbun’s “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior” Marty’s 3rd book, in the chapter “Meanwhile Back at the Ranch” chapter 24.

    LRH was battling an inttransigent body thetan that he was unable to get rid of, for which he concluded on his self case supervision step to drop his body and go do the OT running program around a star, or that’s what he deludedly though.

    The Xenu story if taken seriously (I think it is all absud delusion now) but it makes sense if you believe in the soul as separate from the body, and if you believe that souls could be trauma engram blown out of people’s bodies and implanted for 36 and /12 days and trapped on earth for millions of years and the souls clustered into body thetan clusters and that these surplus souls clusters still hover all over earth and invade everyone’s bodies today, every time a baby human is born they are also invaded with clusters of body thetans, and that when people do Scientology, they do on OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 today, they do a hell of a lot of exorcism to get rid of ALL of their body thetans.

    The Xenu story explains the incident, the big bad incident, the big engram that L. Ron discovered, for which we have this massive body thetan infestation today.

    People don’t get this, don’t get their own religion, and trying to spoon feed to people the Scientology science fiction beliefs which this story sounds like, is difficult.

    But historically, Scientology is a Hubbard story that they won’t even try to understand themselves for various reasons.

    I had thought that in history terms, to have the public generally understand the Xenu story’s real significance to their belief in their body thetan problems which they learn as an acquired disability, Scientologists learn this is their “OT case”, because it is really the case of their body thetans they are handling, when they exorcism those body thetans using Hubbard’s OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

    It’s just a huge part of the Scientology subject that the followers are never brought up to even realizing about their own belief system.

    I’ve found almost no Scientologist or ex Scientologist who even could say what I just wrote above, none are that understanding of even what their body thetan problem relates back to the Xenu story and the Xenu story is just the 4th dynamic engram, the big daddy engram that Hubbard only came up with in 1967 or so.

    Prior to that, I don’t think he discovered or anyone discovered this engram (it’s all fantasy I believe today, a total crock of Hubbard’s delusion, but it’s still BELIEVABLE and makes some sense, when you look at Hubbard being troubled by body thetans himself to the end of his own life).

    Xenu story makes their OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 make sense why they even have to pay to learn how to get rid of these body thetans which long ago Xenu mass murdered and implanted.

    Xenu story is important to know, because then you can see how well anyone you are talking to is at in their relation to understanding the actual Scientology big beliefs.

    The whole Sea Org is partially even in existence to deliver the exorcism of OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 today, that exorcism is only done at Sea Org orgs or in the freezone.

    A dumbed down summary of the Xenu story and body thetan exorsim of today’s OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 is always relevant to mention in discussing “What Is Scientology?”

    The Dianetics pre natal engram handling to the body thetan exorcism handling of OT 7 due to the Xenu caused 4th dynamic engram, is a train of discussion that explains why the Hubbard Bridge to Total Freedom has on that chart the steps it does.

    • Techie

      Chuck, I think it is important to know about the upper levels and what they really mean but I would never mention them to someone still in. On one hand, few of them actually know anything about it, and on the other it results in an immediate total “analyzer shutdown” for those that do. We were told that any of this actual information would be harmful to us if we were not ready for it, and we believed. If you want to get through Gloria Ida’s “Scientology firewall” (actually just a proxy server that all true believers are supposed to use) you cannot mention any upper level materials. Any site that has those words on it is removed from the Internet of the True Believer. If you really want to reach these people you have to leave that part out of your pitch. Besides, I never heard that mocking someone’s deeply held beliefs was a successful form of apologetics. Dave was so proud of his “Nightline” interview with Ted Koppel that he had us all watch it at the Gold base – but carefully edited out the intro with the Science Fictionology Martians and saucers. The saucer stuff is not what is important to me anyway, it is the broken families and wasted lives that bother me.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        “… I would never mention them to someone still in.”

        This sub point I dispute.

        And further, people thankfully can dispute this choice and that people HAVE told and encouraged the free discussion of all theory of Scientology.

        And this ought be available PRIOR to even venturing into the Scientology past lives auditing and exorcism practice!

        I would have liked to have had this simply described PRIOR to joining Scientology.

        So beginners, even pre-Scientologists absolutely for intellectual honesty have a right to have this information laid out somewhere easily available!

        And existing members too!

        Scientologists dodge that fact that their religion is therapy.

        Scientologists dodge the fact that their religion is exorcism.

        Scientologists dodge the fact that the Xenu story is the 4th dynamic engram and that engram’s effects were body thetans in clusters floating around earth today, and that Scientology’s OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are simple the exorcism levels to get rid of the body thetan clusters that infest our human bodies.

        Scientology is past life therapy and exorcism.

        Scientologists are taught all manner of dodging the simplicity of their religion.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        “….If you really want to reach these people you have to leave that part out of your pitch….”

        It’s no pitch.

        I was a course supervisor. The way I discuss it is to say to the person that they were simply never told simply what their religion was about, at the “upper levels.”

        How can people make informed choices to support their religion when they don’t know that their religion engages in this advanced form of exorcism to rid their bodies of body thetans?

        Scientologists not OT 3 don’t even know what “body thetans” are.

        Scientologists not OT 3 don’t even know of the Xenu engram’s details having caused the “body thetans”.

        Scientologists not OT 3 don’t even know the “body thetans” got 36 and 1/2 days of implanting, and that all that implanting is the crazy stuff that leaks from the clusters of body thetans back into them as people.

        Supposedly!

        It is simply human history honesty to detail in simple understandable language the actual beliefs and practices of ANY human activity.

        And it is NOT a given that harm is done by a simple thorough telling of the truth.

        In time, the truth helps it all make sense and makes life BETTER!

        The “truth” as Scientology tells it, suits the business end practice of Scientology.

        Intellectually it is completely wrong to accept limitations on telling the simple truth of the Scientology beliefs to anyone.

        I don’t pitch, I presume people wish to know things simply and clearly.

        • Zer0

          This is a good point. Even though a patient might be a lot happier if you gave them treatment for cancer, without telling them they had cancer, I think you are still obligated to give them the correct information.

  • ze moo

    I am truly angry at the Florida Lawyers Bar Association. They state very clearly that agreements that amount to a no-compete clause are unenforceable, yet Dandar now has to pay up for just that. I shall bombard their association with emails about this travesty.

    The Board of Governors are at : http://www.floridabar.org/DIVEXE/BD/CMStanding.nsf/WBD/$first

    The President is : gcoleman@bclclaw.com
    The President Elect is : ramon.abadin@sedgwicklaw.com

  • Dr_Orpheus

    A lot of exes have mentioned being angry when Tom Cruise was awarded the freedom medal. Reminding people of it might be a good idea.

    “Ten years ago David Miscavige personally awarded Tom Cruise the Freedom Medal of Valor” and declared that Cruise was the most dedicated Scientologist that he knew. These days Cruise seldom mentions Scientology. How could COB’s judgment have been so wrong? What else has he been wrong about?”

    • ze moo

      Tom Cruises couch jumping and ‘I know the history of psychiatry’ dropped the atomic bomb on the clampire. After that, the 4chan protests put the first nail in the coffin. The ‘only $cientologists can help at auto accidents’ video was the next nail. TC has done more to destroy the CO$ then anyone, except Misavage.

    • Observer

      And where is Tom now? Not only is he not hanging around BFF David Miscavige anymore, he’s no long shilling for Scientology AND didn’t have to disconnect from his ex-wife and daughter, who both are at least PTS. Katie may be a full-blown SP given the negative attention her ninja dump of TC brought to bear on Scientology.

  • Ruby

    I was in the cherch for many years. Being dialed into doing everything in the organization, exactly as Hubbard wrote, the thing that got me to wake up was seeing how Miscavige was so blatantly violating Hubbard’s instructions. Since I had been around long before the captain came on post, I did not have any loyalty to think he was above LRH and had a right to alter or negate policy and tech. Seeing this happen more and more made me leave. I still considered myself a scientologist when I left. After that, I began to search the net and discovered, on my own, the rest of the truths that include the organization, the whole subject and Hubbard. It was not an overnight process of waking up. And today, I am a happy member of the bunker.
    That is why I am so excited about this new change in LA. It is so greatly off policy that I am hoping some more of the old timers will jolt themselves awake. It is an opportunity to point out more examples of how off the rails their religion has gone as Hubbard has several policies that say combining day and foundation orgs, which is exactly what the captain has done there, is an outright act of treason. While they may believe everything the captain says now about how great it is, simply saying to them, ‘But how do you explain that against what Hubbard says here in this policy?”…while showing them the policy of course. Seeing what Hubbard actually wrote about it will cause them some confusion, and the more of those that pile up, the more they will begin to question and will need to look for themselves.
    I have always found that when I talk to someone still in, I do not attack Hubbard or the tech. I simply point out how contrary the current actions of the cherch are compared to what Hubbard actually wrote. In that way, they will listen and sometimes even look for themselves. They are devoted to Hubbard after all. So attacking him or “their religion” only makes them think you are an antagonistic SP and they shut off their listening ears at any hint of antagonism. So, I don’t suggest going in the direction of “challenging” them.
    If you can open the door for them to look, they will usually continue to open that door on their on at some point.They will not really look at anything bad about Hubbard, but they will look at someone doing something against his sacred words….and that is how the captain is helping us make the job easier. He is getting more and more blatant in his disregard for Hubbard.

  • Jimmy3

    who left after struggling with a broken collar bone for three hours
    What?

    • Qbird

      John McMaster. ‘Clear’ #1. He was on the Apollo with the fat man & he was treated to an overboarding that broke his collar bone. It was impressive to him, this fun with Hubbard.

      • Eclipse-girl

        John was the first clear in $cientology. There had been a woman who was supposed to be the first clear during Dianetics, but then couldn’t remember the color Hubtard’s tie.

        John McMaster was a true believer, for a while.

        • He turned out to be an SP:

          http://backincomm.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/jm02.gif

          http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/mcmaster.htm

          “McMaster stated in an interview: “I was so excited about
          the function of auditing ($cientology counseling) that I
          was willing to overlook Hubbard’s faults – . That was up to
          a point of course, the final point being my realization
          that his intentions were entirely self-serving. I saw that
          he was in it for the money and personal power, and his
          actual intentions were not as stated. The basic function of
          auditing is a wonderful thing, but Hubbard perverted it.”

          • Eclipse-girl

            I have been learning more about him through Bent’s book. It is not as easy to read as Russell Miller’s. Going through all the steps as Bent does, slows it down a bit. It should NOT be the first book read for newbies, but eventually it should be read by all who. I guess I should post a review for Once Born’s site.

      • Jimmy3

        Sure. I was asking more about the “struggled with a broken bone for three hours” part. Wondering if it were a typo, or just an awkward way of writing it, or maybe if he’s a mutant like Wolverine that heals really fast.

        I’ll be honest, I was hoping he was a mutant because that’d be awesome.

        • Observer

          He struggled in the water with a broken collarbone for three hours after it was broken during the overboarding, as Mankind’s Greatest Friend sat and watched and savored every moment of McMaster’s agony.

    • grundoon

      The source for this seems to be Jon Atack’s book A Piece of Blue Sky, chapter 3. McMaster told Atack of this in an interview.

      The “First Real Clear,” John McMaster, had been the emissary of Scientology. He had braved the incisive questioning of television interviewers, and, overcoming much bad publicity, inspired many people to join Scientology. He had even been sent as a Scientology representative to the United Nations in New York by Hubbard, and managed to secure interviews with several important people. In November 1969, John McMaster resigned from the Church of Scientology. He felt that the “Technology” of Scientology was of tremendous value, but questioned the motives of those managing the Church, most especially Hubbard.

      McMaster probably feared for his own safety. He had been overboarded several times, and the last time was left struggling in the water for three hours with a broken collarbone.

  • Mark

    Refresh…

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Someone with better writing skills than myself might try sending a letter to John Morgan of central Florida Morgan and Morgan fame. He’s got a lot of money, legal cred and political clout. If he hears about Ken’s plight, he might be able to offer some help. Worth a try, no?

  • Anti-scientologists never had much effect on me.
    And if someone tries to tell me I’m ‘hypnotized,’ I know right away they’re full of it. You have to be susceptible, a certain type of person, to be hypnotized, And I’m not one of those people.
    Yes, I had wins from auditing. I’m not saying auditing helped me with my life, I’m just saying it may me feel good. This happened many times, and I was impressed that there was a non-drug way of manipulating the mind into a euphoric state. Of course, not the sec-checks – that’s another story.
    The thing that made me want to leave was talking to other scientologists – scientologists who had had similar positive experiences, but who also had complaints. That turned my head around.

    • Espiando

      How is it possible to turn your head around when it’s lodged firmly up your ass, Vincent Vega? Didn’t you get the message yesterday that you’re not wanted here, especially if you’re Flunk, like I think you are? Oh, I’m not going to forget what you said to Lucille, and I’m going to call you out on it every time you post here.

      Just go away and fuck your bonobo wife/daughter/sister like a good little chimp.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        But the German Ambassador is being so polite and civilized! You’re just being mean.

      • Oh – when you tell me to stick a broom stick up my ass and have a come out my mouth, that’s okay?
        Because your Espiando? And I’m not?
        Fuck you – I mean, I would admit you have some intelligent things to say sometimes, but when you get angry you just sound like an idiot.
        I’m done go fuck yourself.

        • Robert Eckert

          Yes, because he’s Espiando, and you’re Ziontologist.

        • Captain Howdy

          ….

          • stillgrace2

            Maybe you can help me with this, Captain. I’ve been thinking. What’s worse: Espi telling Z to stick a broom up his ass and have it come out his mouth, or Z telling me to stick a 12 volt battery up my ass? This could be a case of dishing it out and not being able to take it.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              snort!!!

              Edit……………dying here……….lol

            • Captain Howdy

              Grace, I’m giving you the rest of the weekend off with pay. lol.

    • Mark Foster

      The best way to hypnotize someone is to convince him that he CAN´T be hypnotized. There´s a ton of fascinating information out there on the subject and I politely and emphatically submit that your head will get turned around more-in a positive way-if you continue to read about the subject. While you´re at it, read up on(if you haven´t already) Freud and abreactive therapy to get some perspective on your feel-good auditing experiences(yes, I had some auditing, too). Just a friendly suggestion…

      • Thank you

      • http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/09/13/deconstructing-scientology-2/

        Hypnosis

        The most diabolically effective form of hypnotism would probably
        thoroughly convince the subject that it was impossible to hypnotize
        him. It seems that only in that case could the idea be implanted that
        no awakening and de-hypnotism would ever be desirable or even possible.
        It would inculcate the opposite of the old adage applicable to any
        reform, or even education, activity that the first step to recovery or
        learning is the recognition that there is something to recover from or
        to learn. If you were thoroughly convinced that you were more awake
        than virtually all of humanity, there is no chance that anyone could
        convince you to possibly take a look at waking up.

  • http://barefacedmessiah.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/the-right-question-my-ex-and-i/
    http://barefacedmessiah.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/the-right-question/

    I tried to answer the same question twice. Yes, there is a solution! Be friendly, hope the best, don’t use condescending wordings.

  • Sherbet

    This is one of those days when I’m content to sit back and read exes’ stories. Carry on, exes. You tell interesting and occasionally hair-rising stories.

    • Captain Howdy

      Yeah, I’m just going to kick back and read the ex’s also and watch a certain one to see how long they can contain their insanity.

      • Kim O’Brien

        i have one rolled for you and i got my popcorn

        • NOLAGirl

          We’re in sync today Kim. I too have one rolled and am about to dive into Bunker stories. I bring no food though, I’ve been lazy pretty much all morning. I’m already seeing delivery for dinner. 😀

      • Sherbet

        I hear crickets this afternoon. Maybe the show is over.

        • stillgrace2

          Oh, that one will be back.

          • Sherbet

            Not with the two-woman tag team set loose in the Bunker. Gotta love ’em.

            • stillgrace2

              I haven’t seen Lucille today … her troll tech is awesome. Maybe tonight or tomorrow?

            • Sherbet

              She deserves a day off to rest up. She’s part of the coed tag team. I was referring to ace snarkmasters Bury and Observer.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              U should talk!

            • Sherbet

              You go for the jugular when someone deserves it. I still hear my mom in my ear admonishing me to “Be nice.”

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Sorry….I mean well.
              I try to be nice…………but then, well………you know.

            • Observer

              Sometimes the truth can’t be sugar coated.

            • ^This.

            • Sherbet

              Oh, don’t be sorry! You give people the benefit of the doubt, but when you’ve reached your limit of BS, they know it. I admire you. I’m a wuss.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              U R NOT!!!!
              You may think so…………but I can read your Mind!!!!

            • Sherbet

              OK, I am not. And just for you, here’s your favorite emoticon 😉

            • Zer0

              She can;)

            • Sherbet

              Uh-oh.

  • Shelly Britt Corrias

    Although I was at the Int Base for 18 years, which was more like a “dome” (if you’ve seen that TV show) than a bubble, my work required me to travel a lot. Interaction with non-Scientologists outside the bubble built up doubt over the years. One project required that I stay in Spain for a year. There, I developed friendships and genuine love for many people, which was reciprocal. Love was not entirely absent at the Int base, but it was so stifled and suspect, you felt you had to hide it. So a free outpouring and sharing of it for an entire year was overwhelming. I also saw enough of these people’s real lives to realize that Scientology, while it may have benefits to some, was not the answer for everyone. If it wasn’t the answer for those I cared about most, what was I doing? Three years later, I was out.

    • April

      I’m glad that you made it out Shelly. Spain, and much of the mediterranean cultures are very emotionally demonstrative, so I’m not surprised at all that you had such an experience.

    • Anonymous

      If it [Scientology] wasn’t the answer for those I cared about most, what was I doing?

      Thank you for sharing this…I had the EXACT same thought before I split for good.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Wow…That was what I thought when I looked into the eyes of my young children. I had make sure no one from the Church got their hands on them.

    • Shelly Britt Corrias

      I would add, if you want to get through to a loved one, demonstrate unconditional love and make sure they grasp that. Unconditional love is what enabled me to finally break away. My non-Scientologist family demonstrated that for two decades, despite my ridiculous and inexplicable behavior. Knowing that I would not be alone brought courage.

      • aquaclara

        I’m smiling with happiness over your family’s perseverance and love. It worked!

      • Zer0

        Unconditional love keeps the world turning! Great post:)

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fi-scientology18dec18-story.html#page=1

      Thanks for your years of speaking to media Shelly!

      • Shelly Britt Corrias

        Thanks Chuck, that LA Times article was the first time I spoke to media. Earlier this year, I came across those picnic basket photos I talked about in that article. Funny enough, I still have them.

    • pronoia

      Very interesting about Spain! Jenna Miscavige seems to have had a similar experience. She and her husband were sent to Australia for a year, where they had an opportunity to relate to non-Sea Org people for the 1st time, and when they got back to LA, they just were never able to get back with the “program” again until they were able to finally blow.

  • Anonymous

    “And it raises a question for us: Perhaps our readers who left the church can tell us about conversations with outsiders which might have contributed to their process of leaving? Was a confrontational approach ever effective? (Someone shouting about Xenu at you, for example.)”

    People know that I don’t share much biographical information, but I’ll make a small exception here.

    What got me thinking about leaving Scientology was the number of “confrontational approaches” that I experienced inside the church. Especially toward the end of my involvement it seemed that the default “solution” to any situation where a staff member wanted another staff member or public to do something that they were resisting, was to yell at them. That yelling sometimes turned into threats about “your eternity” and related idiocies.

    Folks that know me IRL know that yelling at me in person is a bad idea, because I’m not inclined to accept it without a response. In the church, because of the hierarchical arrangement of what passes for “management” one is not allowed to “flash back” when “face ripped” so I tended to suppress the urge. But toward the last few months of my involvement I “flashed back” quite a few times, with increasing volume, to the point that I saw something I had not seen before, which was for the other party to actually back down. Some of these folks, including some CMO types who thought they were pretty tough stuff, really did not know what to do when someone returned fire of equal intensity. They were lost, because the one tool they had (yelling, threats) no longer worked and in fact became counter productive. No doubt THEY were also being yelled at from their seniors, so to experience it from someone else was probably “restimulative.” Heh.

    I’m not suggesting that we encourage internecine yelling matches inside Scientology as that is likely to result in more violence and “hole” type lockdown situations.

    But I would suggest this: once one has employed Jon Atack’s calm approach suggested above (getting into a good conversation with a still-in) and getting them to remember their former lifestyle before joining the church, it would also be a good idea to ask them if they have ever been yelled at or threatened in the church and if that is something they had previously experienced before signing up. Ask them if they want they want more yelling and if being yelled at is part of what they thought would happen at “the only game in the universe where everybody wins.”

    I don’t think this is a silver bullet that will work every time. But on those occasions where it does seem to create the intended effect, one can follow up by suggesting that the time might be right to simply walk out of the Org and keep walking until one feels they are a safe distance away and start considering their options. Then keep going….to a the home of a friend or acquaintance who is not involved with the church who might let them hang out for a few days. If they do not have a non Scientology friend (entirely possible for long term staffers) they can go to a public shelter for battered spouses or homeless people. Anything is better than enduring more threats and yelling inside the church. The next stop I would recommend is to go to the police and simpley inform them that one is an ex-Scientologist staff member and that retaliation / harassment / kidnapping is expected and ask them to both take a formal report of concern and to supply advice on how to handle former comrades who might attempt a “recovery.”

    Back to my own situation. Even though I knew many senior executives in the church and went to them in person or over the phone with my concerns about the abusive atmosphere I saw engulfing global Scientology, every single person I spoke to refused to get involved. This confused me greatly at first but eventually I saw it for what is was – tremendous fear. There simply is no safe way to communicate concerns in the church…as soon as one voices doubts…one is instantly labeled and “handled.” People that have not experienced this won’t understand…those that have, know exactly what I am writing about.

    The above happened quite awhile ago. I have recovered well and have a good life. I also have many friends in law enforcement, the legal profession as well as active and ex-military associates. Some of these folks can be pretty unpleasant when provoked…and they take it very personally when one of their own is bothered. So OSA and your seniors…don’t be stupid. Me and my friends don’t come from a fake Navy.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Or, as “mirror” Spock once said, “I suggest you remember that my operatives would avenge my death, and some of them… are Vulcans.”

      • Anonymous

        The problem with exposing Scientologists to the stuff OSA (and the GO before that) does, is that later on after they have split. they recognize it when they see it, hear it, smell it.

        It can be hard to get others to understand how deceitful, underhanded and truly evil the church is…unless those folks have knowingly experienced it on the receiving end or watched it being done on the delivery end. Most people disbelieve it or dismiss it as the silly work of kooks.

        The church still wins a few skirmishes, but the curtains are drawing closed on their ability to do comprehensive intimidation such as what led to the IRS decision. All sorts of machinery is clanking away to make sure that type of thing does not occur again…and that those responsible for that kind of stupid are held accountable or rendered incapable of repetition.

        • aquaclara

          Thank you for these excellent comments, A. Do most Sea Org, staff and public know about the kinds of intimidation and Fair Game tactics the church uses? Or is this only something one would know if they were OSA?

          • Anonymous

            Depends.

            Most still-in’s do everything possible to avoid hearing “entheta” regardless of the truth or falsity of it, because they know that “entheta” will eventually come up when they are on the meter.

            Most still-in’s have heard / read small parts of various atrocities (like Snow White) but have bought into the shore stories they are fed (like the one about stealing copy paper) because they want to keep the “theta” buzz going in their head and thinking hard about “entheta” makes that difficult. For someone outside, this sounds crazy, but it is exactly what still-in’s do…they avoid bad news about Scientology, true or not, because it “enturbulates their case.” They WANT to believe the “bad SP’s” from the old GO were banished…even though a very large number of them are still involved in Scientology, but on the down-low.

            Once out and fully decompressed one understands that one’s “case” in Scientology does not just include those personal issues one brought to the table to get fixed when they initially signed up…”case” eventually includes ANYTHING that gets in the way of Scientology expansion and money-making…period. Even true accounts of Scientology atrocities are considered “entheta” and are to be dismissed or diminished.

            You see this phenomenon with the trolls on this board and also some Scientology apologists who only want to talk / hear about the “good” parts of the “tech.” They are still in the grip of the scam, but they have not yet acknowledged such.

            Most eventually do…sometimes after a few trips through the Indie field or some other less hostile bastion of the “good parts” of the tech.

            If someone honestly spends a few days “confronting” the better reporting about the real history of Scientology and it’s leadership on the internet, it is almost impossible to remain a true believer Scientologist.

            Not surprisingly, the church makes it a “crime” to read about Scientology on the internet, except on a very, very few of their own sponsored (and sometimes well disguised) sites.

            • aquaclara

              Thank you. This fits with what I’ve seen when people do try to protect and defend that last bit of faith.
              It seems that once a former member is open to looking on the internet, a whole world of bad news awaits. It seems to push the recovery along pretty well at that point.
              I imagine that what would be harder to believe is how all, or virtually all of this Scientology brought on themselves….

            • Anonymous

              The bits of truth scattered around Scientology do occasionally show up in the strangest places after one escapes from the thought-stopping grip of the church…the part about “pulling it in” comes to mind.

              But “pulling it in” does not have to describe the “magical thinking” silliness that it often encompasses in thought-control groups like Scientology.

              “Pulling it in” also describes the natural reaction normal people have to bullies of all sorts…eventually people figure the bully out, then gang up on the bully and bring the bullying to an end.

              There is no “magical thinking” necessary. The bully “pulls it in” and is stopped. Heh.

      • Anonymous

        One of he most informed (and therefore dangerous) people on the subject of the corporate structure of Scientology was Larry / Densie Brennan. She left behind a priceless legacy of information about the deliberate shenanigans the church went through to create the corporate maze which makes holding accountable it’s leadership difficult in a courtroom setting. That structure was not created by accident. It was designed.

        One of the best declarations about that subject left behind by Larry / Denise is at this link: http://www.lermanet.com/reference/brennan-dec.pdf.

        I often think about what Larry / Denise wrote in paragraph # 4, of the above declaration. Those words are captured in the image below.

        I realize there are all sorts of “explanations” for the death of Denise Brennan and I also realize that the words in the image below were written several years ago. But I do not completely discount other possible explanations either. Look at her own words and think about the importance of the dangerous knowledge Denise held in relation to the several lawsuits currently in progress. She would have been an extremely good witness were she still alive.

    • Jenny Daniels

      For everyone who has been verbally abused and bullied, even if you don’t believe you have been, I would like to suggest a book that I found really helpful.
      The book is : Verbal Abuse Survivors Speak Out: On Relationship and Recovery
      Patricia Evans (www.patriciaevans.com).

    • Stacy

      I’m so glad you have friends who are capable (in every sense of the word) in helping you remain safe from CoS.

      As always, thanks for opening my eyes to more aspects of CoS b

      • Anonymous

        Staying “safe” is a two sided coin.

        That’s why I advised against “stupid” in my post.

  • Baby

    Graham 8 hours ago Wanted to make sure you guys saw Graham’s comment.. Hilarious
    …………………..
    Wonderful Freudian slip: Science Doc over on Mike Rinder’s blog
    meant to talk about a district where there is “a ton of money” but
    instead wrote “a Ron of money”. Most commenters seem to think he got it
    just right. “A Ron of money” thus passes into the SP lexicon 🙂

    • Anonymous

      I saw that too…hilarious.

      And the irony of the label “Freudian slip” is pretty damn funny also.

      • Baby

        absolutely hysterical Anon..haha

    • NOLAGirl

      Not sure what or how much a “Ron of Money” would be, but whatever it is, it’s on the way to an offshore account. 🙂

      • Baby

        Yep Ron ” Shit Load” of $

  • What got me out was the LRH datum that a stuck flow never flows weaker, it only flows harder. I realized that things were never going to change at Gold/Int and that DM was the reason. Within months I was gone. Thanks, Ron!

  • Truthiwant

    With all these nasty things said about Scientology, and here I still am, promoting the upcoming IAS event. It’s really quite disheartening…

  • FOTF2012

    I was deeply touched by John’s suggestion about reminding people of their pre-Scientology lives by simply asking.

    Many years ago, when on staff at an org in a major city, and not having been “in” for that many years, two former friends — non-Scientologists — tracked me down. They went into the org and insisted on seeing me. Eventually, a staff person came and got me. I was “released” for an hour to “handle” my pesky friends.

    We walked to a nearby park and chatted. I lied glibly about how great the org was and Scientology was. In reality, I was not getting paid, I was unkempt, I was scrounging to get enough food to eat, bumming cigarettes and borrowing money, and so on. It was miserable. Yet there I was putting on the Scientology happy face and telling them I was fine and all was well.

    I remember when they left and I walked back to the org. I had a horrible sinking feeling. Deep inside, I wanted to just walk away from the org with them, but I could not. I was trapped. I had signed a contract. I had bought into the whole deal.

    Looking back on that incident, I wish that I had walked away. I wish that my friends had kept coming back and reminding me of the life I had planned. I have to think that there are people in the cult right now who feel that way deep down inside. Therefore, I heartily endorse John’s advice.

    • scnethics

      That’s a great reminder sometimes you don’t have to say anything. I know your friends said stuff, but had they just kept showing up and getting you to spend some time with them, just for fun, that would have helped.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Thank you for this post, Fotf2012.

  • Stacy

    I’d like to try Jon’s suggestion of opening a dialogue with a letter reg. I’m assuming in the age of the Internet, the person who responds to a “contact” email from one of the CoS sites will be a letter reg?

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      I guess. I stay away…They have found my unlisted phone number, my new address, the names of a couple of my children and their phones, That was where the yelling obscenities tech worked. Not a peep lately.

      • Stacy

        At some point, if I really want to try to make a difference, my privacy will be invaded by CoS. I hate the thought, but it does seem inevitable. And there’s no reason to hide, other than not wanting to be harassed. I guess I’ll have to live with that. Many of you have.

    • grundoon

      If they find out your address, you’ll be on the mailing list. Trees will die.

      If they get your phone number, you may have opportunities to try out your skills of persuasion on quite a few Scientologists at their convenience for the next many years.

      The Scientologists who contact you will be the newest, most junior staff, or those trying to work their way out of disgrace.

      Confronting Scientologists directly seems unlikely to accomplish much, unless you know them personally and have some relationship that they might still value. This goes double for registrars and body routers. They spend tens or hundreds of hours drilling on exercises that train them to stay on message and ignore or deflect all contrary or distracting input. An encounter with “raw meat” is their opportunity to put their training to work and hone their skills.

      Why not look for some action that would actually be more effective? Is Scientology infiltrating your local school system or police dept with their anti-drug quackery? Are they seeking a zoning variance for their Ideal Org or Narconon? Have they got the schools or elected officials handing out their Way to Happiness propaganda? Is your congressperson on the tax committee? Has the fire marshal inspected your local org or mission recently? Did they have proper permits to install their sauna? Is the building ADA compliant? Are there old junk cars stored in their parking lot?

      • Stacy

        Thanks for some additional fuel to address. First place I’m going to is the dept of health. And I’m checking narc and Criminon here to write to my congressmen. But I still feel like that’s not enough so may try the email contact thing. I can live with junk mail and solicitation calls I’ll never answer.

        • grundoon

          More power to ya!

  • richelieu jr

    This is exactly the same idea I tried to drum up enthusiasm for a couple of times in the past year– Let’s take a real look at what was the ‘final straw’ or the ‘last drop pf water’ (as we say in French) that made their resistance crumble…

    I was surprised that we’d heard from several recent blowers that what had got them wasn’t theological incoherence, or the idea that Hubbard lied as he breathed, but that Miscavige was living in luxury!

    Now protestants seem to have accepted this in stride, and god knows how many Rolls Royces Maharishi Mahesh Yogi had, with no great defections; but here, in this money-grubbing ‘religion’-flavoured shell-game, it seems to really work..

    I like Jon’s idea, but it does seem a bit romantic to me. Then again, I was never for shouting ‘Long Live Xenu!’ on the streets and hoping for a good reaction, any more than I was thrilled that Act Up used my membership money to throw blood (red paint) on Catholic Priests during mass…

    This is not how you convince people of anything but the fact that your parents did a lousy job…

  • Sid

    Bury_The_Nuts made an interesting comment earlier, “Ironic that to possibly break through to a Scientologist…….we would need to find their ruin. But on the other hand, it makes perfect sense.”

    I keep thinking about this one. Each person has their own trigger(s) that send them out the door.

    I wonder if a question like, “What in Scientology is ruining your life?” would impinge?

    We could write a bulletin on it. BSOB (Bunker Scieno Out Bulletin) How to find a ruin and pocketa pocketa pocketa bring the Matter Off.

  • Kim O’Brien

    OK …who here …as a “never in”has ever MET a scientologist? ( not me )

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Depending where you live you may never meet one,..or if they were like me they will never tell you.

      • Kim O’Brien

        i just read your post . Thanks for the input. VERY interested about the fact that being a scientologist is something that a person would not talk about in mixed company

        • Cosmo Pidgeon

          When you state that your a Scio, people immediately change their attitude and either fear you or find you a strange curiosity and confrontation often ensues. I used to like to leave the conversation where it was and enjoy the new company. That is a way out when you can see that the outside world is not like they told you.

          • Kim O’Brien

            Cosmo ..i’m pretty sure the reaction would not be fear …why do you think that ? I do not fear ppl who come to my door to sell me jesus ..

            • Cosmo Pidgeon

              The kind of fear one feels when someone mentions Amway.

            • BosonStark

              At work, after a worker I barely knew — he was in another department — asked me twice over for dinner with his wife, and I declined. He finally wanted me to meet him to talk about something. He had his own office. He had a tripod, which belonged to him and it had nothing to do with his work, and he wanted me to listen to him about an “opportunity,” I think he called it. He wouldn’t tell me what it was.

              I listened for over 5 minutes to his talk, as he turned over pages and drew simple things on a large tablet. I finally interrupted him and said, “But what are you selling, this isn’t Amway is it?” I laughed.

              It was Amway, although it took a while to worm it out of him. I told him my cousin already hit my parents up about it and that I know it’s obviously a pyramid scam. You can’t make anything until you get enough suckers below you to sell it. I hope I shook his confidence by calling him out on it.

              Scientology doesn’t have any products to even sell on a pretext. They basically try to sell you on the idea of buying into Hubbard’s overpriced baloney outright, which gets more expensive the more brainwashed you are. But here it is 40 years later, and Amway is still going too.

              Scientologists are on a par with someone who would tell you, “I worship Satan.” And that was before I knew anything about it really. I’d just read some pages of Dianutty, and was somehow aware of some of the training routines clams did to obliterate the reactive mind.

              Today, for a clam to tell someone [that they’re a clam] they’ve known briefly would be like saying, “I have Ebola.”

          • BosonStark

            Yeah, it’s kind of like telling someone, “I just got out of prison.” At least then a person can say, “So what were you in for?”

            No matter what a person says after they’ve told you that they’re a Scientologist, most people would be thinking, “This person is in prison. Eek!” (A prison of the mind.)

    • aquaclara

      I have….

    • Jgg2012

      I did, and was turned off by the way they chain smoked.

    • kemist

      Outside of stress test tables a few years ago or the ideal org in my city, no I never met a random person who told me they were a scientologist.

      • Kim O’Brien

        i don’t mean for it to sound like some random person would come up to you and say ” hi , i am a scientologist ” but if i had THE secret to ALL THINGS ( snark ) i might not keep it a secret. Christians wear crosses around their necks , muslims cover their hair , etc. I think i insulted someone with a scientology crack one time but not sure if they were a scientologist or not

        • kemist

          Yeah, I was thinking about the people I’d have conversations with for one reason or another, like when waiting for a bus, or on a plane…

          But then there are not that many of them where I am, so that’s not really surprising. I guess there would be higher odds for this in Clearwater or LA.

          I did see some lonely looking ones at stress test tables a couple of times. One time was at health food expo. There was no one at the table, and they were not doing anything to attract attention.

          I did not know it was about scientology, as the word wasn’t written anywhere on their stuff. I realized who they were when I first saw an emeter online later.

    • MaxSpaceman
    • AmoVolare

      I did and that is where my interest for the argument came from. I have (had) a real friend who got sucked into the cult long ago. He illustrated me the whole thing (he was in honey moon then and enthusiastic…). We spent a week toghether (we live in different towns) but I was very doubtfull. I relized i’d better not to be against because i felt our friendship could be destroyed. Then years passed away. He married a scion and both apparently were quite successfull as artists. They made up some money (thanks to the teach they said) but later I had the impression that quite all money went in courses. I met him once 4 years ago and he was performing well as classic musician but he looked quite automa to me. Then I Did not dare to call him anymore nor to discuss sci with him because I felt he was completely ‘gone’ for it. I hope he will awake soon or later and look forward our friendship could re-start. When i met the Bunker i knew quite everything (tech, LRH, even DM, OTs) but, for the first time I become sure my feeling where right and sci was a total scam. I think that i will call him up one of theese months or years hoping to hear that he blew and that our friendship could resume. Sorry for verbosity, typos and bad english but i feel this as wound not healed iet.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        It is hard to lose a friend or relative to the delusion.
        And it is very confusing.

        Good luck.

    • Once_Born

      Me

      • grundoon

        The old way was too human for Miscavige, so now he has machines to do the indoctrination (video screens).

    • (Laughs) And uh, they said, “So, have you met an Scientologist” (big laugh) I looked at them and I thought, “What a beautiful thing,” because maybe one day it will be like that, you know? You know what I’m saying. Maybe one day it will be that “Wow, Scientologist, they just read about those in the history books.” You know? (cut)

      I don’t think I’ve ever met a Scientologist outside of protests. I did have a friend who was a JW. I never knew that until I was over at his place and noticed a small Watchtower book on his desk. I picked it up and said “Oh, they’ve been around here too with their cra…” Then I focused on the bookshelf behind the book, full of more books. *awkward*! He left not too much later, and eventually went on to start one of the first ex-JW websites.

      • Kim O’Brien

        I thought about Cruise when i typed that question 🙂

    • scnethics

      You never know, Kim. Several years ago, I went to lunch with some people from work and someone at the other end of the table (too far away for me to join in) started bad-mouthing scientology. I cozied up next to her on the walk back to the parking lot and said, “hey, I heard you talking about scientology. Have you ever actually met one?” She said no and when I introduced myself as a scientologist, I could have knocked her over with a feather. We had been working together for a long time.

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        I had a similar experience:
        I was a scientologist and working at EarthLink Network, Inc., in the Information Technology division. Not many scientologists worked in that area. Most of them were in sales.

        A small group (about seven) of IT managers and lead staff were in the IT recreation room and one lead from web development starting going off on how stupid the scientologists were, etcetera. This went on for a few minutes before he took a break.

        Then my friend Tim, who was not a scientologist, stepped in and said the most delightful thing:

        “R…., Which TWO people in this room are scientologists?”

        Priceless.

      • Kim O’Brien

        i am asking here ..who has met one ..not who was one and met someone who was not . Plus , i think both of you got ppl IN to scientology ( or tried to ) so ..um …( trying to think of a good crack about reading comprehension tech 😉

    • NOLAGirl

      I am one, like many, who never lived in a city (or never lived long in a city) where it was really prevalent so if I have met a Scientologist they didn’t mention it. I don’t usually ask people what their religion is though, to me that’s something you should wait for the other person to talk about.

    • Truthiwant

      You’re right. It’s not easy.

      There are some publications out there about Scientology Spotting and there is the ASSO (American Scientology Spotting Organization) who hold courses and visit Scientology sanctuaries around the country.

      However, as an amateur Scientology Spotter, I recommend camouflage dress, like a fake navy uniform, fixed eyes, and a copy of Dianetics at all times as you venture out trying to spot a Scientologist in the wild.

      Be very quiet if you spot one, and don’t shout ‘Xenu’ at any time as they will run away back to their nests.

      Be very careful, if you are going out Scientology spotting at certain times of the week, like at 2 o’clock every Thursday, as they can be quite nervous and can even go after your wallet if you are not on your guard.

      Once a year they all migrate to England to change their feathers, but by the second half of October, they are back in run -down parts of a few US cities, trying to give the impression their numbers are growing.

      Scientology spotting is actually becoming more and more difficult, as it an almost extinct race.

      They are now on the WWF list of endangered species.

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        “They are now on the WWF list of endangered species.”

        Carter Roberts, President and CEO of the WWF however recently tweeted:

        “But that’s ok.”

        The tweet was deleted, but an unnamed spokesperson has since issued the following:

        “If anyone was offended, we apologize.”

    • Captain Howdy

      Well, except for my stupid sister..never. And I’ve met them all, Kim. real nazis (from Germany), neo-nazis, pedos, pimps, junkies, hookers, bank robbers, mobsters, hitmen, perhaps a serial killer, satanists, witches, vampires, etc etc but never a scientologist.

    • Jo

      Never met one, area clear. Pic

    • pronoia

      I have. One was a whale couple in Santa Barbara who my sister worked for in the 80s. We didn’t know anything about scientology at the time, but we did know that there was something very weird and culty going on and we steered clear (no pun intended!) of any scientology talk. Later in the early nineties, I became friends with a ex-sea orger. This was not something he shared until we really got to know each other. He had been out for over 10 years and he was still terrified that they would track him down and harass him as they had when he first got out — they had found him in Boston after he ran from LA.

    • Elar Aitch

      Me!

    • April

      I’m kinda late to the party here, but I’m a never-in who, to my knowledge has never met a real live scientologist. However, I live in the buckle of the bible belt in the southeastern US. Non-christians are generally looked upon with much suspicion by christians (who make up a very large portion of the population) here, although I should note that Jewish people are not ostracized and there’s even a Buddhist monastery in Atlanta GA. I’m guessing that I’ve probably met a scientolgist at some point in my life but he/she didn’t feel comfortable sharing in such a politically and religiously conservative environment.

  • Cosmo Pidgeon

    Yelling Xenu or something about brainwashing or being confrontational will have the opposite effect. That will ensure in the mind of a Scientologist that you are an SP and only have evil intent. Interaction with non scientologists will eventually take ones guard down. There have been a number of “wogs” that helped me leave because they never knew I was a scientologist. Good, caring, fun people and a life not always on edge.Once I had things squared away in my head {sort of}. I did a reverse disconnection and stopped all communication with the church and friends in the church, got a new job, moved, married a” wog “girl..These events overlapped some but not much. I miss my old scientology friends but I don’t want them to find me and try to help me..if you know what I mean. It must be very difficult for Sea Org, being that you don’t get to interact outside. But being hostile will not help much. I have a friend that I kept and we mostly talk about the old days before Scientology. We don’t bring up Scientology much because I think we are both afraid of loosing each other. He has family in the Sea Org. It also become difficult with divorced parents where one is a rabid Scio and the other may want out but wants to be able to see the children. Things sometimes are not as black and white as you might like them…..Boy, back to the question at hand, I like Jon’s questions, slipped into whatever else. Talk about things you have in common,..fishing, hunting, music, whatever. There are no magic words, it’s more your intent. Leaving Scientology is a long process and you’ll need patience,

    • DodoTheLaser

      Thank you for this post, Cosmo. It reminds me of my journey out in some ways.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Your welcome Dodo. I was thinking about you yesterday how you are in a time zone other than mine so we don’t often interact. But how amazing it is the internet allows individuals in different parts of the world to share ideas. I too see some similarities of experience.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Cool! 🙂

  • Jgg2012

    I think people are drawn in by the therapeutic claims, i.e. you will be more successful, have better health, etc. and the sci-fi stuff is nonsense. Then, they are put in the bubble, told they are having wins, are really doing well, etc. As long as the appearance of that is kept up, they stay, but if something inside the bubble cracks (i.e. Davey says the textbooks were unintelligible before 2011) the doubts will start. The doubts are NOT started by outsiders, but outsiders can inform insiders or pose as insiders. As a never in, I think it would be as if I stopped brushing my teeth for 10 days and my teeth become whiter–I’ll suddenly believe that brushing all these years was a waste of time, though I don’t think that now.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    What better way to spend a few minutes than to express your
    displeasure via a flurry of Red-Xs.

    266 ads on the 4-day list (they are flagging 🙂
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    and the daily list here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2487820

    Update #1 here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2487860

    TICK TOCK, LilFiveOne

  • Robin Robinson Stamm

    For me, the first trigger was the early ’80s Mission holders meeting where people were declared without any justice proceedings. It was so off-policy, I waited for a correction … which didn’t come. After LRH died, I began to notice more and more off-policy actions, and how easily others bought into them. I ultimately left because I couldn’t be part of a group that treated its members (me included) so poorly.

  • scnethics

    I’ve gotten people into scientology, but unfortunately haven’t gotten anyone out yet. I’ve tried the direct approach on some people and the gentle, indirect approach on others. The gentle, indirect approach is much better because (take this to the bank): if someone is not ready to get out, they ain’t getting out. It doesn’t matter what you say or how you say it. You need to maintain contact with the person so that when they inevitably have those bad experiences that make them doubt, there’s a chance you’ll be there to help them get out. The direct approach just gets you cut off. When they have doubts, they know not to express them to you!

    What got me out was that I was on a mission to debunk something negative I heard in the media. What got me ready to get out was a long break I took from being inside the scientology bubble. Because I wasn’t giving money or helping out scientology, learning that there was something wrong with scientology alleviated the guilt I was feeling, so there was some motivation to accept the truth instead of forcing it out of mind or finding some way to explain it away. Had I been active in scientology, learning that something was wrong with it would have been completely negative for me, and I would have been tempted to go into the org and get re-programmed (of course, I wouldn’t have thought about it that way).

    So I would say that if you have contact with a scientologist and you ARE NOT a scientologist, you could gently share something negative you heard on the news like this: “At work the other day, I heard people talking about a news story where this guy who used to be a salesperson for scientology was interviewed and it was crazy some of the stuff they were saying. Did you hear about that?” If they say “Oh there are all kinds of lies printed in the newspaper, I don’t believe any of them,” just drop it. If they ask what was said, then they are ready to hear some truth and you can share a little, but don’t act like you believe it, just share what you “heard”, and as soon as you’ve gotten in a shot or two, just say you can’t remember anything else or don’t know the answer to their questions and tell them it was called “The Money Machine”. If they are like I was, then they’ll secretly go investigate so they can figure out what to say if it comes up again, and that could be the beginning of the end.

    • Jgg2012

      Doesn’t the Church remind you of the Wizard of Oz? Dorothy is told to travel to Oz to see the Wizard. She makes long trip, only to find that Oz won’t do anything. Then the good witch says “just click your heels 3 times”. She asks “why didn’t you tell me before?” and the good witch says “you wouldn’t have believed me then”. The internet is the good witch, but, until you were willing to research, it wouldn’t have helped.

      • scnethics

        Yeah, it is like that. There I was for years and years, the truth just a few clicks away, and I never looked.

    • Zer0

      Nice angle!

    • DodoTheLaser

      Great advice, scnetics!

  • Anonymous

    Jon Atack mentions “Flavil Yeakley’s paper on cloning of identity in cults.” Searching for that led me to this site full of great info on coercive thought control groups of all sorts. For those that have interest and have not already been through this site, here is the link: http://www.culteducation.com/.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      At the link, Rick Ross isn’t a fan of Douthat’s recent piece either.

      “Douthat doesn’t seem to care much about destructive cults or the damage they do.”

      • Anonymous

        My sense is that while the ability of coercive groups in general (at least in the US) to recruit new members (victims) has been diminished (not stopped) the ability of those same groups to continue to do great harm to those already involved remains unchanged.

        And there is a great danger in allowing groups like Scientology to gain the trust of otherwise disinterested politicians and law enforcement because of the inevitable manipulation that will occur.

        By every legal means possible, the education of others about the true history / intentions of Scientology has to continue.

  • Sowing seeds of doubt?

    • Sid

      Don’t you know, seed duction is better than reap. (refresh)

  • nottrue

    When I didn’t know anything about scientology my scientology friends would talk about it all the time but when I educated myself on scientology they clammed up

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “Jon Atack: How to talk to a Scientologist to plant the seeds of doubt”

    This seems like an honorable endeavor.

    Of course the Xenu story discussion will never jar loose or be even pivotal in tearing down the many other reasons a Scientologist clings to Scientology.

    The belief in past lives is still so widely believed and to me today it’s so obviously this mistaken belief in past lives is a prior problem troublesome belief the person who is a Scientologist might already believe in.

    I’ve explained Xenu story in detail to non Scientologists who are spiritualists and they think it quite admissible that Scientologists believe in the possibility of the Xenu engram story.

    So, I’d agree that telling beginner Scientolgists the Xenu story isn’t going to necessarily jar them out of their overall support of Scientology’s auditing practice.

    Engram theory is still something Scientologists can place their faith will relieve them tailor made of their hidden own bad engram effects.

    I think though, it’s nice today for the outside world to be up to speed enough on Scientology to talk simply about how the Xenu engram was so bad of an engram that it caused the body thetan problem and that today Scientology’s OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are Scientology’s secret exorcism levels to deal with all these surplus souls that infest all human beings today.

    Media still has often called the Xenu story the genesis myth of Scientology, and that is false. The Xenu story is just a really bad recent (only 75 million years ago, compared to the actual long ago “genesis” of all time and space even for Scientologists who go easily further back in time in their own auditing) engram.

    Agreed talking Xenu to newbies might have no effect on causing them their final straw realization that getting out of Scientology is their best move.

    Talking the Xenu engram to define Scientology correctly as a therapy and exorcism religion, though, and not refer to the Xenu engram as the “genesis” myth, is something I hope media gets up to that level of understanding fully of the Xenu/OT 3 story/Wall of Fire/4th Dynamic engram at least.

  • Mike Leopold

    The deposition that Marty Rathbun gave is the most illuminating example of the lengths to which Scientology will go to corrupt and unduly influence the American legal system. They have elevated corruption into an art.

    The journalists and lawyers and everyday people who are exposing the stifling of free speech and corruptions of law that Scientology engages in are owed a great debt by all who cherish freedom and justice.

  • Jgg2012

    “An attorney is facing ruination for the simple act of acting as an attorney and representing a woman who blamed Scientology for the death of her son:” Actually, he is facing ruination because he followed an order from a federal judge, and now has a Section 1983 claim against Davey, before another federal judge, and Davey won’t show up for a deposition in that case, so I can guess what that 2d federal judge is going to do.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “Joe got out while the getting out was still good, and we have no doubt he’ll thrive. We only hope he continues to write about Scientology for the Times when he has the chance.”

    Yes, it’s a great service to the people in Clearwater/Tampa area to have a veteran of decades of Scientology watching to write about that subject there.

    He could write a book for sure, couldn’t he! So wished he’d have gotten a Pultizer for the Truth Rundown series.

    That was an all time great media story, always will be.

    Gosh on this ruining decision against Dandar, to me it sickens me more about America.

    We let this sick religion Scientology get away with using the US legal system to viciously demean a lawyer who had the guts to try get justice!

    This kind of Florida legal system sick playing game Scientology’s accomplished makes me wish I was born in the UK or France instead, or Canada.

    Only in the US, I think, how the Florida legal system was influenced to play ball as Scientology’s dupes’ money paid to Scientology has bought them.

    Dead Hubbard’s insanity played out influencing US buyable justice! Only in America!

    If a con has enough money, they can get the system to work for them! At the expense of society.

    My faith is in you media guys! Tony and Joe Childs!

  • Speaking from personal experience on the matter, I was never influenced by conversations with anyone about Scientology. I just got sick of the invasion of privacy, and being told to give respect to people who I didn’t feel deserved it. Also watching those OTs wither and die. I knew there had to be something better than this out there.

    The beginning of the end of my involvement was right around the time that I realized if I was fired from my job working for a Scientologist and they denied me unemployment, I had no recourse since Scientologists aren’t allowed to take each other to court. I didn’t think that was fair. So I sought employment for a company that had no connections to Scientology.

    Do you have a suggestion for people that have been born and raised in the cult and really have no other perspective? The Sea Org seems to be littered with people like that, at least it was when I was in. It may be difficult or impossible to find someone who actually had a life before Scientology.

    • Baby

      Derek.. I hear what you are saying..

      During flag down .. John McGhee talked man to man with the Security Guards.. and really got their (2 guys) attention. He would say in a low tone voice.. ( I was right beside John listening and watching not interfering )

      ” Man you’re my age..I was in. Aren’t you getting sick of this shit.. You are a good lookin dudes and you could do anything out here. You want to leave? Come on..come with us.. We will protect you. ”

      They did not walk away from him. As someone who is in behavioral sciences for 30 years I am well aware of nonverbal cues. Listening cues.

      I saw the cocked heads, the furrow in the eyebrows.. posture, hand and feet movements..

      He was talking to one guy ( I was beside John) and the gentleman made direct eye contact with John. He did not look away as John was talking softly. He did not step away. He attempted to appear to be ignoring him.

      but I really picked up on his nonverbal cues.

      It was mother’s day. After John stopped talking to the guy I started to cry. I just said, ” Your mama misses you. Just go home. ”

      ( I know about your situation Derek.. I’m sorry if what I said caused you any pain)

      He immediately went to the other gentleman and awkwardly started to laugh.. And I said, ” It’s NOT funny.. Do you think your mother’s pain is funny?” as I began to sob.

      He looked directly in my eyes and his bottom lip started to quiver. John whispered in my ear.. ” You got to him. He showed his vulnerability. I am an older woman grandma type.

      He and the other gentleman just stopped talking and put their hands in front of them.. but stopped talking to each other.

      I’m sorry for the long story.. but you may have found words to be intrusive when you were in..but you never know when you are going to PLANT THE SEED.. at least to get their brains engaged in thought.

      • This is a nice story, but I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the things that I saw that were wrong when I was in Scientology that caused me to want to leave (chief among them the invasion of privacy that Scientology and Scientologists encourage).

        • Baby

          Well then.. ” Nevermind..”

          I am sorry D. Jeeze.. Carry on.. xo

          • Well I just didn’t want people to think that I was annoyed by the conversations I had with people about Scientology. It was the Scientologists that drove me crazy. People outside Scientology are almost always easier to talk to and more compassionate than Scientologists.

            • Baby

              I absolutely understand Derek.. I would have gone bat shit crazy..

            • That’s probably the most important part of what lead to my decision to leave. I would be batshit crazy with the Scientologists and then I would be with the non-Scientolgists and I would feel great. It took a while, but not to long thankfully, for me to realize the source of my problems.

            • Baby

              So glad that you are out D.. I know you are too..

              The Scientologese would do it for me..ugh

      • Frodis73

        I know this reply is hours behind, but *that* is a great story from Flag Down! That guy will never forget you that’s for sure.

  • Jefferson Hawkins

    Here is the most direct way I have found to begin to break down the cult mindset:

    Questioner: As I understand it, L. Ron Hubbard said that Scientology is only true if it is true for you. Is that correct?

    Scientologist: Yes.

    Questioner: So in other words, he expected people to inspect each part of Scientology and decide if it was true for them, to accept what was true for them and reject what was not. Would you say that’s accurate?

    Scientologist: Yes.

    Questioner: Would you say that’s how you have approached the subject of Scientology?

    Scientologist: Yes.

    Questioner: Great. Can you give me an example of something Hubbard said that you personally rejected as not true for you?

    At this point you’ll probably get a confusion and a stammering as they try to come up with something Hubbard said that they personally disagree with. Either that, or they will insist that they have personally inspected everything Hubbard said and agree with it ALL, which sounds bizarre and extreme even to them as the words come out of their mouth.

    Persist, asking in different ways, “Is there anything Hubbard said that you disagree with?” “Is there any part of the tech you personally found not to be workable?” “Is there anything Scientology Management is doing that you personally disagree with?” and so on.

    Eventually, if you are lucky, the floodgates will open and you will get them voicing their disagreements, probably for the first time.

    • Baby

      You Nailed it Jefferson..and you know one day I will use that technique.. LOVE IT!

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        If you can do it while talking into your wrist watch/communicator, even better.

        • Baby

          Ohhh just watch me Commodore

    • Jgg2012

      Creative thinking is their worst enemy, sort of like pouring water on the wicked witch of the west.

      • April

        I think maybe you meant to say critical thinking?

    • Zer0

      Awesome!!!

  • Baby

    O/T I did take a personality test once.. but didn’t have time to study for it..

    It was discovered that I had no personality..

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      Goes to show the OCT is shit.

    • Jgg2012

      Maybe you were overqualified.

      • Observer

        ^^This!

      • Baby

        Hahahahhaa.. It reminds me when I was in HS.. ( small town) and didn’t know what I wanted to do in my life.

        At the request of my Guidance counselor my dad had me tested at a career counseling center like 3 hrs away. ( 1965)

        We drove in that awkward silence teenage girls have with their dads and I took the test.. Well it determined that …….Are You Ready?

        That my career should be An Actress.. hahaha My dad could have killed me.. We came from a town of 3,000 people. I mean literally..That was the longest ride home ever..

        and of course I babbled on about ” HOLLYWOOD..” ( Sally Fields/ Patty Duke) and my dad was only thinking about the Martini he was going to gulp down when he got home.

        Fun Times..

        • Jgg2012

          You’re as talented as the Kardashians.

          • Baby

            Uh Yeah.. and I had the Big Butt thing goin before it was Cool..

        • Frank Lee

          In Texas there remains a mandatory career assessment test given to those in middle school. One of the questions asked is their gender, which I believe should not be asked nor have any bearing. I know a girl who had SAT scores in the nations highest, recruited by every ivy league college. The state of Texas told her she should aspire to be a waitress, or stewardess! Perhaps some day she will run the state!

  • Simi Valley

    I have a terrible track record at getting scilon friends out of the cult, so I must not reflect the norm (if there even is such a thing). The last time I tried to plant seeds of doubt in a scilon friend, the friend died. I haven’t tried since, but I sincerely hope that they have the courage to read the truth online. I’ve spoken before of how my terror at reading the truth online kept me glued to the cult for an extra 10 years or so. It sucks. I don’t know if it affected any other scilons the same way. The lesson I learned from all this is: Feel the fear and do it anyway.

    • Simi Valley

      I just remembered that I did try since, and the friend informed me that he had read the truth about DM online but was staying in anyway. I really, truly suck at this.

      • pronoia

        Too narcissistic to care? He obviously believes that the cult will pave the way to magical power. Power being the key word. So perhaps the fact that little DM is such a big bully is admirable for him. At least deep down wherever he is still real?

        I know a lot of people who get out (esp those from the Sea Org) say they got in because they wanted to help others. And I believe that is true. But from what I can see a lot of publics get in and stay in because of what they believe the cult will do for them. The likes of Grant Cardone spring to mind in that category.

      • grundoon

        Many Scientologists, especially Sea Ogres, seem able to tolerate almost any amount of abuse done to others or out of their sight. They don’t leave until they themselves get fucked past their limits.

    • Observer

      You did it once–you got yourself out. Don’t give up.

  • Suzy

    Thank you once again Jon Atack. Your perserverance is admirable. I had to pause when I read about the cattle prods. So there just happened to be a few handy cattle prods laying around Big Blue’s basement? Are there accounts of this method being used on members?

    • grundoon

      They probably ean out and bought cattle prods after his first visit, to use on him in case he came back.

  • Peter Bonyai

    Here are some lines that might be useful:

    1. For me, the real turning point was to actually envision how would a Cleared planet look like and really think it through. The main thing is that the Sea Org would be in charge. Believe it or not, this is actually a frightening prospect for the Churchies. Which takes us to #2:

    2. In my experience, he biggest “button” among Churchies was the extreme power Sea Org members wielded over them. Old-timer Scientologists found it particularly hard to tolerate overzealous, freshly recruited Sea Org member, who ordered them around. Just get them to imagine how the Sea Org would run their country – and consequently, how would their daily life look like.

    3. The Hubbard family is also a good subject to bring up to “disconvert” Scientologists – he had four children. Where are they now? They might know about Diana, but what about the rest? Also, what’s the deal with Mary Sue Hubbard? This can also get them thinking and looking.

    4. Also, just have them recall how was expansion 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 15 years ago? What were the promises and the heavily pushed campaigns then? All those ideas – Golden Age of Tech, Golden Age of Tech for OTs, Basics, Congresses, Saint Hill Size Orgs, Golden Age of Knowledge, Golden Age of Tech II, the various anti-psychiatry campaigns – what is the result? And, more importantly, where are the results? Are there more auditors auditing people in the field? Are the more active Scientologists?

    5. The more dedicated ones usually become independents or freezoners first. It is usually impossible to get them to turn against the Church AND Hubbard himself at the same time. If someone is “disaffected”, usually he or she can realize that Miscavige is an SP who destroys the great Church Hubbard built. It is much more viable to turn them against Dave’s regime at first.

    6. and – simply spending time AWAY from Scientology is surprisingly effective. If the targeted Scientologist can be persuaded to take some time off or go on a vacation.

    And if someone wants to communicate to a real life Sea Org officer – here is the email address of Lt. Cmdr. Walter Kotric, Commanding Officer, CofS Cont. Liaison Office Europe – wkotric@scientology.net

    • NOLAGirl

      I finished your book earlier this week. It was really excellent. Thank you for telling your story.

      • Peter Bonyai

        You are very welcome 🙂

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Recall how that a Hawaiian vacation on young, Zoe Woodcraft worked to get her out of the,Sea Org. Her sister and father both ex-clams didn’t want to rock the boat but feeling they were going to lose her back to her dedicated scion mother and Grandmother(both whom she loved),they staged an intervention and although it didn’t work right away,it planted the seed of doubt. One 13 year old was saved from that life by explaining she could go to college and be anything she wanted to be.

      • Peter Bonyai

        Getting away from the incessant pressure and manipulation attempts is indeed a good remedy. BTW, when I trying to start my Sea Org career at Flag in 1997, Leslie Woodcraft was the HCO Area Secretary (head of Division 1, responsible for personnel, internal justice and communications). I was pretty dedicated Scilon at that time, but she gave me the creeps with her absolute unthinking dedication.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Sort of off topic but many clam moms I’ve read about seem to be at the bottom 2% on the,Mother of the Year list. From Black Rob’s thread to the stories from,The Good ship Apollo this cult is peppered with neglectful and often abusive mothers. I realize that some woman are not born with maternal instincts but the whole neglectful abuse thread seems to be more prevalent than in the Wog world. Hearing the horror stories of house’s full of babies screaming with soiled diapers while being looked after by an RPF prisoner working off her amends is just so creepy. I’d name some names but some of the exes will say oh,”I really liked her what a wonderful person.” Mrs. Woodcraft seemed to be a real life witch who took a whole three days off a year to spend with her daughters. Being a higher up she had her own flat and let her daughter sleep on the floor along with the bedbugs,mice etc..The father’s don’t seem to fair any better(Although Mr. Woodcraft was very different. I thought we we were born to protect and nurture or young. I’d think to break that cycle the kool-aid would have to have something else in it. I remember when the crack epidemic hit we learned very quickly we were dealing with a different type of addictive drug in this country. Heroin addicts,for the most part.would stay at home and be semi functional parents and some were down right good mothers. But when crack came along mother’s were abandoning their children for life on the streets prostituting or stealing to get that next rock of cocaine.

          • ze moo

            Maternal instincts are HE & R and not in $cientologies interest. One must serve Lroon before all others, children included.

          • Captain Howdy

            Junkies hate crackheads..ugggh. In detox, the junkies & alkies would dump on the coconuts and tell them to go sit in another part of the day-room.

    • Robert Eckert

      Hubbard had seven children. Before Mary Sue’s four, there was Nibs (Jamie de Wolfe’s grandfather, whom he turned into an arch-enemy), Katie (who seems to have escaped without much damage), and Alexis (whom he kidnapped as a baby, and disowned as an adult).

  • 1subgenius

    Of course, there are some you just can’t talk to.

    Meet George Bailey:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCP33dzL55A

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      George Bailey’s rant is one of the most disturbing scilon encounters ever recorded.

      From the forced laugh of someone trying to sound confident in his convictions to…

      “You are nuts! You’re insane! You’re stuck in an electronic incident!” This from a white wizard of the scientology world.

      *eyebrows*

      • Sid

        Good old George. His ex-wife Jacqueline was convicted on charges of criminal breach of trust in Canada. Jacqueline (Nee Bailey) Matz “ran the agents” who got jobs in the mid-1970s with the RCMP, the OPP, Metro Police and the attorney-general’s office in order to pass information back to Scientology.

        • OMG Jacqueline Matz! I’m within two degrees of separation from that loon!

          /brb, shower.

          • Sid

            As you can see she’s attained the valued status of Scientology Benefactor (refresh)

            • Janice Wheeler, another Ontario Snow White alumni, with a Hubbard Management company. To get Gold Humanitarian status, how many humans do you need to sacrifice?

          • Sid

            Suck it Kevin Bacon, EH?

      • stillgrace2

        I see your *eyebrows* and raise you three *facepalms*. (F5)

        • Lurkness

          Awesome!!!

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            I am going to keep liking everybodys post cuz I can’t multi love this post………….snicker!
            edit……….especially the laughing Kitteh!!!!!!

        • Sherbet

          Tonsil Tech.

    • I’ve been looking for the animated words version of his rant. Anyone?

    • Phil McKraken

      That never gets old. He be trippin’.

    • Scientology’s finest !

    • romanesco

      I wonder…if you held a mirror up to that guy while he was ranting, would he finally begin to get it?

  • Satansthetan

    Several years ago I was asked to work on (I prefer not to mention my profession here but it involves me spending 2 hours with someone, sometimes we talk, sometimes not) a very large LA whale/celebrity. Even though this was pre-bunker I knew enough about COS to be surprised that they would hire someone from outside the cult, but I went over to their house intrigued as to what might go down, and hoping not to be brow beaten into joining. I know it was going to be interesting the moment I shook hands with the person and said, “Hi, ….. pleasure to meet you”. The response after looking me up and down like I was a side of beef, was “Yes…….come in”, as 1if they were recognizing that it was indeed, a pleasure for me to meet them. I wound up going there quite a few times until one day when we got into a conversation about Psychiatry. The client started to tell me how important it was to realize that all psychs were just drug pushing tools of the big pharma. Naturally that didn’t sit too well with me and very gently, over the hour or so we talked I convinced this person that it was ABSOLUTELY IRRATIONAL AND AGAINST ALL COMMON SENSE to say that every single psychiatrist is evil, maybe many of them are just pill pushers, I told, her, but every single one, not possible, not true, and I told her about a friend who is a child psych and some the amazing successes he has had, and how in his heart is only helping, healing. I can tell, you, the client was overwhelmed, and had to concede that it did, when put like that, seem kinda crazy to be that black and white about things, that nuance is normal, not verboten! They were clearly freaked out to be on such unstable ground, but not angry or agressive, I actually, not knowing what I now do about the abuses of COS, felt a little bad for shaking their faith so visibly. In later days my ego got involved I hoped that the client would blow and say that this conversation was the catalyst but alas they are still in, still giving big bux, still has a kid in SO. Too bad but I tried. I have to say I have worked with a lot of the Hollywood crowd over the years but this client, who is officially certified as “enlightened” (their words) in COS, is easily the least secure person I have met, period. I soon learned the rules of communication with this client, that any jokes must be very neutral, self depreciating humour is met with blank stares, all reference to client or their work MUST be positive, no dark jokes, no questioning or undermining anything said by them allowed, and on and on. Really my impression was of a person so completely consumed with themselves and so isolated by wealth and the idea that they are just SOOOO much better than everyone else that their grip on reality was fragile and tenuous. Very sad, this was once a normal person and is now in need of years of deprogramming, a mental prisoner in a hell created by a madman.

    • DeElizabethan

      Thank you for sharing this unusual story.

      • Satansthetan

        y’welcome! I still hold out hope that the light will go on in that persons’ brain one day, but we shall see…

    • Observer

      The response after looking me up and down like I was a side of beef …

      I bet he was trying to peg you on the tone scale.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Sad!

    • grundoon

      A lot of times, humor doesn’t register with Scientologists. I think they are trained by Study Tech to take everything L I T E R A L L Y. They have to be told it’s a joke, then they’ll switch gears and try to figure out what the joke is.

      • Satansthetan

        That makes a lot of sense, poor buggers, I really felt bad for that one, in spite of the life of wealth and privilege there was absolutely no peace at all in their mind at all. Nor any love in their life as far as I could tell, only possession. Not quite so sorry for them now that I have been educated by Tony and the Bunker gang!

  • Todd Tomorrow

    As a child i remember being in the dentist office leafing through their vast collection of magazines. Although I was only 12/13,I recall how stupid they were. When it was time to get my wisdom teeth out I was sent to a dental surgeon. Sure enough he had the same stupid pamphlets embossed with his name.

    I just talked to my mother the other day and asked if the dentist and his wife still ran their practice. She said that they were still there but always seemed to have money problems, despite me recalling how busy the practice had been. She said,” I quit going because they just seemed so strange.” “They still live in a tiny apartment with her father and my last visit they couldn’t accept credit cards.” Red flag for my mother who works in finance.

    Instantly I recalled,W.I.S.E and how they duped so many smart Dr’s. I tried to explain it to my mother but she wasn’t interested. Just repeated,”Even when i see them at the grocery store they seem friendly but strange.” Sadly that wasn’t my only run in with a clam. The next one took me for a great deal of money and didn’t even mention she was in the church well into a year long association.

  • Cosmo Pidgeon

    I want to hear the story about the guy in the ping pong ball encrusted BT suit..That sounds fascinating.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Funny I was thinking the same thing. Cattle prods? WTF,who has those just laying around.

      • Snippy_X

        Sadists.

        • His account says stun guns, because this was back before tasers were common.

          The guards probably still have them.

    • Kim O’Brien

      me too !

    • An account of Frank Notaro’s experiences:
      http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/198601-thefreespirit-p30.html

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        He doesn’t mention the BT suit…it makes me think of this.

        • Sid

          That BT ain’t the brightest light bulb in the Cluster.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Thanks

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Sounds like maybe a taser. Which a security guard would carry rather than cattle prods. Thanks for the link RM.

        • Probably doesn’t shoot darts–just a fancy dress cattle prod.

        • grundoon

          It was in 1985 that the Chruch of Scientology used electric cattle prods to answer Frank Notaro’s request for a refund. Tasers were first sold in 1994. Before the taser, brutal cops had to make do with electric cattle prods, lead-weighted billy clubs, rubber hoses, vicious dogs and such.

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            Thanks for the clarification Grundoon. I did not know that….And all that for only $2000.00 that he wanted back. Thanks for the links.

    • Lurkness
  • j238

    Just one question, “Honestly, how free are you to leave Scientology?”

    • Sid

      There have been some cases of physical restraint certainly, but mostly it is the blackmail that keeps people. You’ll lose your family, your friends, your business contacts (loss of income), not to mention them spreading shit about you to one and all. Even if you’re not afraid of losing your eternity they still hold a lot over your head.

  • Jimmy3

    After you’ve planted the seed, how do you tend to it, nurture it and make it grow into a healthy wog plant? That’s what we should be asking here.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      We should get that recipe from:
      Jefferson Hawkins
      Jon Atack
      Amy and Matt
      Marc and Claire
      Mike and Christie
      MLT
      Michael Fairman
      Leah Remini and family
      Tiz and family
      Jason beg he
      DeeLiz

      Oh hell…even from Marty….

      Oops, on a road trip…..

      • Jimmy3

        Good idea. Next time I see any of those people in the Bunker, I will ask how often they were watered.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Don’t forget to ask about the nitrogen ratios!
          And remember….always prune an ex Scientologist while in the dormant stage.
          If you cannot determine the dormant stage….in the Northern Hemisphere….wing it….use February.

          • DeElizabethan

            Completely baffled I am with that Bury, and laughing bewilder-ly.

      • DeElizabethan

        Through personal diligence and finding some best friends you mutually trust and can talk to.

  • nottrue

    When escaping from scientology have a good disguise ready if needed………whoops

  • I finally figured out what those crests for the Los Angeles Orgs remind me of… Venus trains!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi8ywNNoznE

    • Baby

      WHacked..funny but Whack ugh.. I hear that man’s voice and I want to vomit

    • aegerprimo

      Yeah! They do look like trains coming at you head on!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    $cientology makes unproven and unfounded therapeutic claims.
    I will make one too.
    Red-Xing is good for your inner SP, clears Craigslist of lies and protects the innocent.

    4-day list here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml
    today’s list here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2487820

    Here a check, Dildo Dave, a reality check.
    This is what going over Niagara Falls looks like.
    It is a good analogy for your present time experience.
    Enjoy the ride.

    • Hyder Simpson

      Small new batch added

  • Jack99

    A conversation, somewhere:
    -So you’re a scientologist?
    -Yes.
    -Congratulations!
    -With what?
    -I read some article in a newspaper somwhere, about scientology, that lately it has expanded 47 times or something. That’s impressive.
    -Yes.
    -Do you have churches in scientology?
    -Yes. Well, they’re called orgs.
    -They must be full of new people. That must be fun, to see yourself the expansion.
    -…
    -What’s the name of the guy running the church again?
    -David Miscavige.
    -Right. And what was the name of the previous guy?
    -L. Ron Hubard.or LRH
    -Ah… he must have done a bad job. Was he fired or something?
    -No, he created scientology. It’s all his work.
    -So he was just a creative guy and he didn’t have a head for business?
    -No, it’s all based on Hubbard, his work, including business. Miscavige was using LRH tech to expand the churh. That’s why it has expanded 47 times. You see?
    -Ah, I see.
    -It’s all Hubbard.
    -I see. So… why didn’t Hubbard use LRH tech and expand the Church 47 times himself?
    etc.
    Yes, still needs some work

    • Innoculated

      Not bad, Jack. I was called by a Sci guy from Chicago last year and I asked him why they felt the need to try to bring back people who left the church over 40 years ago (me) when they have x million adherents (he told me they had 8 Mil. “Well then, your org must really be busy. I wonder you have the time to call people like me.” It did seem to have a mitigating effect on his patter.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “Perhaps our readers who left the church can tell us about conversations with outsiders which might have contributed to their process of leaving?'”

    Seeing Dennis Erlich and Arnie Lerma’s faces in a Freedom Magazine while I was on the RPF gave me huge hope that quitting was the right direction to move in!

    When you hear about other ex members (example holding a protest sign that says: MIKE RINDER BLEW, YOU CAN TOO!) really impinged on me.

    Seeing Arnie’s and Dennis’ faces as “enemies” in the Freedom Mag article, when I knew both were NOT “enemies” really jarred me.

    That kind of protest sign, point out to the members still in, that such and such person who is not an SP was unjustly targeted for bringing up inconvenient truths, always impinges and spurs those inside in doubt that others have left who they know and respect!

    • Baby

      I have gone to 1:07 5x and can’t find Arnie and Dennis faces.. What did I do wrong..

      Beautiful back yard and OMG that dog is darling..( How fun!)

      • Jimmy3

        He said he saw their faces in an issue of Freedom Magazine. 1:07 in the video are the signs he’s speaking of.

        • Baby

          Oh..hahaha I was looking for Freedumb..I did see Mike Rinder sign..thanks Jimmy

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        01:07 is where the camera pans on the sign reading “Free Mike Rinder”.

        I was on the RPF at Happy Valley when I read the Freedom Mags with Arnie and Dennis’ mention that spurred me to wish to blow more quickly. (I later never blew anyways, I never did get up the nerve to blow, I “routed out” suffered the 15 month lengthy bureaucratic delay procedure to leave without being declared SP.)

        • Baby

          Chuck.. I think it’s funny that a Scientology magazine made you see the light. Talk about backfiring ..

          Oh well routed out.. Not blown.. We don’t give a shit.. We only give a shit that you are OUT!

  • Jeb Burton

    Living here in Clearwater, I have had conversations with some scions. 90% of them won’t make eye contact and walk briskly by you, but some stop when you say hi, and are willing to talk. I usually ask them if they are in town for church activities or if they live here. If you ask about LRH, it usually ends the conversation. I will try next time to ask them about life before the cult, or what they hope to gain. This info will be helpful to me.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Go Jeb. Seriously. Good luck, man.

  • Baby

    O/T I’m always lurking.. and found this on Mark Bunker’s station. For those who haven’t watched it ..it is interesting. Margaret Singer . It is an hr. and can bookmark it to watch later..Wanted to share. Baby
    ( I started it after lengthy introduction)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rj4R4QhQg

  • Finally Free

    I physically left the building for the last time in 1986. My inner zealot had begun to wane as I saw the insanity of the SP declares of the likes of Mayo and Franks, and the infamous Mission holders conference and the abuse that I personally had to suffer as a desperately wanting to be straight gay person and staff member. I was sent off to the big complex against my will to suffer manual labor and the big sec check for daring to cross a Sea Org Finance Officer on mission at my Org. I did not see the results either. I saw flamboyantly gay OT III’s and others whom had spent fortunes, why were they such a mess? Ultimately I walked away one day, not necessarily a non-believer, but certainly a disheartened one. I am not sure I thought Scientology had failed me or that I had failed Scientology. Maybe the tech was just not being applied properly. And than of course with LRH dead, how could it ever get better or be set right?

    After my departure, for a decade or so I just stayed drunk or high and fended off the suicidal thoughts. Eventually I got myself together and made a reasonably successful life in business and I accepted my plight this life as a gay man. I thought I was done with Scientology, it was certainly something I never discussed. I was out of the closet as a gay man but I was in the closet as a “once a Sceintologist”.

    It would not be until around 2010 or so that I got on facebook and decided to search for a long lost friend, another tormented young gay man whom I had done the great disservice of getting him into Scientology. I found him immediately and was shocked to find that he was still very much in and somewhat of a gay activist. A spokesman of sorts for the Scientology gay community. Seems like an oxymoron, right? Long story short he worked that magic and it was as if a switch was turned to on and I was a Scientologist reborn. Over a very lengthy FB conversation over a few weeks time he was very effectively working to recover me to the cult. I grieved for the wasted time, wondering how far up the bridge I might have been (I know, gag me). I felt like I was home (although I never stepped a foot in an Org). The think returned like I had never left…. but alas, the bad memories returned shortly thereafter. The haunting memories of the stat push and the poverty and the ugliness of it all. It was a true emotional roller coaster. And than I did it.

    Google… Scientology… Gay… I learned about Xenu, the abuse. I knew it was true. I knew I had been had. I finally saw the light. If only I could get back my wasted 20’s and college tuition. But I was out, finally out, 25 years out and finally free. It was the internet that set me free. It was the critics telling the truth. Tory, Jefferson Hawkins, Michael Pattinson, and the list goes on. Thank you all.

    • Stacy

      FF, thanks for sharing with us. I’m so sorry Scientology found you and indoctrinated you to the extent that you viewed yourself as being in a “plight” for being what/ who you are: gay. This is so so wrong. I so hope you’ve gotten to a more positive place in your views of self and sexuality. If there’s ever any way I can help, just ask, and I’ll do my best. I’m so glad you found out the truth about CoS.

      • Finally Free

        That’s sweet, thanks. Of course it is not only Scientology that indoctrinated me into that thinking, that desire for a cure. It was the times. It was the general consensus of the status quo, of my father. To cure myself of this impulse, this awful thing, was the single driving point that got me into the cult. On this topic, gay topic, I had already been indoctrinated. I was ripe for the picking. Scientology just swooped in and capitalized on that. Thank God the world has changed.
        As for me, I’m long since over it.

    • Observer

      Thank you for sharing your story. Your 20s may be gone but your life is far from over. There are many success stories (ha!), here people who have started their lives over in middle age or older, finding happiness along the way.

      • aegerprimo

        YES!

      • Finally Free

        Yes, thank you. It was a pivotal moment in my “awakening” when I came upon a Youtube press release that was MCed by Mark Bunker. It was a group of several whistleblowers, Nancy Many, Mark Headley, etc. At the end of Jefferson Hawkin’s account he talked about that final day, walking out the door after 35 years a Sea Org member. He was in his 60’s with no money, no resume, no history. It struck me at that point how evil the Sea Org is, how dark the scam really is. Of course we all know the success story that is Jeff today. Luckily for me I got “mostly out” while still in my 20’s and have gotten along just fine, better now that I am fully awake.

        • Baby

          THE INTERNET IS HERE AND WE AIN’T GOING AWAY OSA..

    • Mark

      Thank-you for telling your story, Finally Free. Your courage and honesty are very inspiring.

      • Finally Free

        Thanks Mark!

    • Baby

      OMG .. You just don’t know how many lurkers out there that you may have just said the perfect thing to..

      Finally Free..First off welcome out of the Closet! It’s wonderful out here isn’t it?
      and Good God.. so glad that you are out of scillllllooneybin! I am so proud of you..

      Don’t kick yourself with the idea of going back.. Shit.. I went back with my X for a minute..and no longer had to question, ” What If..” So it was necessary for you to do so.

      You made my night. I don’t say that to be patronizing .. I mean YOU MADE MY NIGHT. Thank you FF.

      • Finally Free

        Thank you Baby! Makes my night to have made yours. It’s actually been an awesome experience, the whole rediscovery, which lead to the discovery of the truth. No kicking going on here. It’s been cathartic to say the least.

        • Baby

          so very happy for you ff.. I bet you feel reborn.

          We would love to see you often in the Bunker ((HUGS)) baby

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Great story FF. Glad things are better for you. That must have been miserable.

      • Finally Free

        Miserable yes, but really mild and pales in comparison to so many of the stories of the great people that post here. Thank you.

    • Zer0

      Great post! Awesome to have you here!

      • Finally Free

        Thank you. So glad to be here and so touched by the overwhelmingly kind response. But to clarify, not surprised.

    • Espiando

      And this is why these sick bastards need to be taken down. This is Why I Protest.

      They will not change their homophobia. They will not cease preying on the victims of a still-homophobic society. Simple as that.

      • Finally Free

        Amen to that Espiando!

    • grundoon

      Your story reminds me of Tony Ortega’s article on the late Keith Relkin:
      http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/09/scientology_keith_relkin.php

      • Finally Free

        Yes Grundoon, Keith was my friend.

        • grundoon

          I’m sorry for your loss.

  • Mat Pesch

    I was in the Sea Org for 27 years. I never saw anyone get talked out of the cult. I have seen thousands driven out from the insanity WITHIN the cult. For those with love ones still in, I recommend that they communicate occasionally how great things are going for them (outside the cult) and let the person know their door is always open should the person need to leave the cult for any reason. There are many Sea Org members who struggle on because they don’t think they have ANY choice. Let them know there is and always will be a choice.

  • So, ask the reg what he or she did before Scientology.

    That may work for a percentage of the less-brainwashed customers, however when you get down to the dregs like we’re seeing now, suckers who have decades of handing their money to the criminal enterprise, they may very well honestly think that their life of handing crooks their money is better than before they became customers.

    • Zer0

      However, the dialogue may open up old memories and emotions which were being repressed by cognitive dissonance. Anything to shake them out of their current destructive cycle.

      • True, it’s certainly worth doing. 🙂 I tend to be aggressive and an asshole when I post comments to people’s NarCONon reviews on Facebook. I need to stop doing that and be more positive. Some times the NarCONon customers get defensive but usually they know that NarCONon did not work since they got back on drugs and, well, they saw it was Scientology and know it didn’t work.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Exactly. I don’t think there is a simple answer here (especially after the posts today.).
        If it is true, it is true for you!
        So how do we figure out the singular answer for the particular human being (Scientologist) whom we are confronting at the time?

        This. IS. Hard.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Don’t some of the Reggers make good money like,Debbie Cook? I’d think it would be hard to sleep at night(why with visiting people in the middle of the night) but I thought some made well over six figures prying every last penny and real estate out of old lady’s hands. In fact it was interesting to me that Debbie sent out the email after she’s purchased a new sports car. She was a religious donation specialists. Complete with a team that would show up in Italy at your house in the middle of the night. You know to collect money for the much needed oilliness table.

      • Baby

        Todd they make big bucks so they can give big bucks back to the cherch. Via services and donations.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Baby it took me forever to find but this lady explains how some of the regg people make lots of money and live quite well. Talks about Debbie Cook buying a sports car from her,”donations”
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3tIiv2Ke5s
          If I’m wrong please somebody set me straight. This was filmed awhile back and some reggers made six figures. They get a percentage of the.”donation.”

          • Baby

            Yep… You are right Todd.. I guess what I was thinking about where the Average ( Not top) regg people make the $ to donate or pay for courses..

  • aegerprimo

    Jon Atack, I salute you. Days like today at the Underground Bunker invoke the best stories of of how people have left the cult – amazing people who got sucked in and duped by Hubbard’s scam, who left and got on with their lives. My own story is long and complicated, and I have shared a lot of it here. There was no one seed planted that got me out, it was a handful of seeds. Today I am reading and learning from others who rarely post here, who have never shared the particulars of how they escaped, and I’m enjoying and learning from the wisdom of the regulars here.

    Thank you Tony O. Today’s article is appropriate and timely as usual.

  • richelieu jr

    If only I were able to be sure I could back up the promise I would try something like:

    “If you ever need a place to crash where you can’t be bothered, or a job, call me.”

    I’ve spoken to a few (adn heard the stories of many mor e here and elsewhere) SeaOrg people who said that at many points they wanted to leave but didn’t think they could survive, or would end up homeless, etc…

    Of course, they’d probably turn over my card during the first seccheck and then I’d have CoS visitors every time someone work up and blew…

    Oh, well…..

    • Zer0

      How about inviting one over for dinner? No pressure, just a free meal.

  • EnthralledObserver

    My very small tidbit to add to this topic… take those $cientologists (if you know any) that have a true, honest desire to help (and who believe they are doing so through the CO$) and offer them REAL opportunities to help a REAL charity, which can show REAL results first hand.
    I’m a never-in and have never known a $cientologist at all, so take this suggestion for what it is, just a suggestion.

    • Globetrotter

      Yes, but they THINK they are doing that already… just better. One of the attitudes you have when you are in Scientology is that you are in a “higher class” than “ordinary humans”. So talking to them about a good cause that’s NOT Scientology would be treated as “cute” at best and probably looked down upon as unimportant compared to THEIR cause.

      • EnthralledObserver

        That’s interesting… so are you saying that you believe that if you actually got the opportunity to ask a person to come and help at a real charitable event that they wouldn’t come?

        • Globetrotter

          Probably not, unless they thought they could get some PR opportunities out of it. They are far too busy dealing with much, much more important world-saving activities.

          • EnthralledObserver

            That’s pretty sad, isn’t it. Well it was only a suggestion… by a never-in.

            • Sherbet

              I thought it was a terrific suggestion, whether the person opted to go or not.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I was hoping it would plant some idea in their head, even if they never saw the results of real charity in action. (And by charity I meant just helping someone, not necessarily an organised event)

            • Sherbet

              Exactly. How many times have you gone to an event you really didn’t want to, only to learn it was fun or worthwhile in some way, and the people were wonderful, warm, and caring?

            • EnthralledObserver

              Every time 🙂

            • Globetrotter

              I hear you. It would be comparable to suggesting a farmer to plant some flowers 🙂 He thinks he is planting much more useful things all his life.

            • Globetrotter

              Yes, it is. It’s pretty hard to understand the attitude if you have never experienced it yourself.

        • noseinabk

          I would think that real charity would be considered Out Exchange to many older scions.

        • Ruby

          Enthralled, this IS a good idea. I was at one such, real charity event recently and because of mutual friend connection, a diehard scientologist was also there. As the speaker gave the presentation, this person was taken back by how wonderful it was to see such great people really wanting to help…as if there aren’t any others except scientologists. I pointed out that , yes, there are MANY people who care, and that this event was not a rarity, but representative of the majority of people who actually live life.
          The cherch paints the world that they are the only ones who really care and do something. It IS an eye opener to show them that that is not true and in fact, FAR from the truth.

    • noseinabk

      Hello EO,
      If I came upon a table display, I would ask them how scientology helped people and what was the ultimate goal of people using it. I would end the conversation with stating how I have total freedom to communicate with anyone, to spend my money on anything, spend time on hobbies and interests, and take days off whenever I want, and I hope they can one day do the same.

    • Jimmy3

      I think all charities should be banned, but I do recognize that that’s an extremely unpopular opinion.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Do you want to elaborate on why for me? So I understand the issue you have with it better.

        • Baby

          He’s cheap

          • EnthralledObserver

            lol

            • Baby

              JImmy is going to tell you about the abuses with giving to charities and it goes for administration costs blah, blah..

              Yes many are.. but if one gives locally .. directly to.. that’s different.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Yes – money – but I guess when I say ‘charity’ I first think of ‘doing something’ for someone else, donating my time. Perhaps Jimmy’s first thought is donating cash?

          • Observer

            Snort!

        • Baby

          EO.. Giving to others is a fabulous way to get out of the ” Me” mindset that captures Scn.

          They start off wanting to change the world and get involved in Scn shit..

          But I volunteer at the thrift shop where I live and feel good about doing it. There is so much to do to assist Vets, Pets, Hospitals etc. Amazing work to be done..

        • Jimmy3

          Charities trick people out of their money and their blood. And I mean that literally, there are people going around like vampires that will trick you into taking your blood. Why do they want it? What is it for? It creeps me out. It should creep everyone out. Why support the undead?

          • EnthralledObserver

            Whilst I acknowledge corruption in charity exists, it’s not the point, just a side effect of improper regulation… which is why CO$ is getting away with their shit they are doing. That kind of ‘charity’ should never be allowed.

            • Jimmy3

              It’s blatant corruption. They pull up in vans outside of American schools, clearly marked as vampire-mobiles. I don’t know if it’s the same down under. But I write to my local paper about it every time i see it and they’ve never once printed my op-eds. Cover-up much, criminals?

            • EnthralledObserver

              Are you referring to blood donation vans? Because, no, we don’t really do blood donation like that here. That does sound strange and I would be wary of donating my blood there.

            • Jimmy3

              That’s what they call them, yes.

            • EnthralledObserver

              There seems to be a lot of ‘privately run’ industries in the US that I would never believe should be… that are govt run here, or at least heavily govt regulated and not for profit. The US is a bit too (read that WAY too) liberal for my tastes, and I’m not surprised at the amount of corruption that goes on in the self-proclaimed ‘best’ country in the world.

            • noseinabk

              Unfortunately true. We have so many cancer groups that do huge marketing for fundraising. Know what my friend got from our Cancer Society? Free parking at Johns Hopkins Hospital for only a month or so of her sons year long treatments for leukemia. Can’t go to many local stores without them asking you if you want to donate x amount to a charity. I prefer to give to two children’s hospitals that I have personal experience with. I know my donation help patients directly.

            • Jimmy3

              One of my best friends is the Director of the Broadview Developmental Center. I’ve never actually met him, but he speaks to me through a rusted out hole in the air duct above the room I live in. He says that the cultural sadists in Hollywood have covered for vampires by making them appear cute and lovable. Oooooh, I would let HIM bite my neck and suck out my blood anyday!!! They’ve sold the girls, and the boys do whatever they think the girls like, so they’ve sold America. They’ve already won.

              Real vampires are not cute. They are not handsome. They are not pretty. They’re ugly, and they’re fat from drinking fatty American blood and they drive vans to your school to take more of your fatty blood. Wake up to the daylight.

            • noseinabk

              Did you by any chance skip the “candy” your friends gave you in that cute little white cup?

            • Jimmy3

              That’s candy? Seriously?

            • noseinabk

              Yes. Shame you missed it. Oh well, more entertainment for us.

          • EnthralledObserver

            This was metaphoric, wasn’t it? If not.. sorry, I was slow on the uptake of your joke haha.

          • noseinabk

            And once you get tricked into giving they call you constantly. Me “who is that calling?”
            Kid “It’s the vampires again” The younger ones know the scam.

      • Zer0

        Yeah, that’s pretty unpopular

  • Offside: I know kung-fu dryer repair. (Dozens of YouTube how-to videos take all the mystery out of life. Now to find a local place that sells Whirlpool drum-belts.)

  • Sherbet

    Crummy, rainy night in MA. Nobody’s causing trouble in the Bunker at the moment. I think I’ll read a book or something.

    • Observer

      Shall I troll you?

      • Sherbet

        Ha! Troublemaker.

        • Observer

          And here everyone thought I was so nice. I might as well go for broke. Will the C word be sufficiently trollish?

          • Sherbet

            Whoa! Not aimed at me, I hope.

            • Observer

              No, no, I was just going to bandy it about in an offensive manner.

            • Sherbet

              Whatever you do, don’t shoop it. I couldn’t bear to look.

            • Observer

              See, that never entered my mind. Are you trolling me?

            • Sherbet

              Yes, and I’m British. 😉

            • stillgrace2

              Coincidence … so am I!

            • Sherbet

              The Bunker was teeming with Brits over the past few days. And some actually were Brits.

            • Baby

              I slept with a Brit once.. Wait..Wait… His name was Bert.. Carry on

            • noseinabk

              Can’t imagine how you found yourself here at the bunker since scientology is so unheard of.

            • Sherbet

              Roaring out loud, nose! Huge laugh!

            • Baby

              “Bandy it about..”

              My My MY we are getting all hoity toity here tonight..

            • Observer

              Yes, my inner troll is something of a pretentious snob. Instead of the C word she would have probably said “labia” or “vulva”.

            • Sherbet

              I don’t think of the C-word without thinking of Media_lush. It’s his legacy. Snort!

            • Baby

              Hahahah.. Va J J

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Holy shit….who are you? Put down the Obs av and meet me in the alley!

          • Baby

            Oh you can call me the c word if you feel like it obs.. Just get it out of your system..xo ( ha)

            • Observer

              True story: I have never been angry enough at anyone to call them the C word.

            • Baby

              I have never either obs.. but Bury has..I heard her and corrected her. I left her sobbing by the side of the road.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Don’t make me move in with you and Bobby

            • Baby

              hahahhahaha have you been drinking..? Who is Bobby? hahhahaa

              My dog’s name is buddy..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              While it crossed my mind….I dont think I have called anyone that either.

            • Baby

              You do know you can go to hell for lyin don’t cha.. Thank God you don’t believe in it! ( hell)

            • I have. When I caught someone jumping the back fence who was trying to break in . I screamed so much filthy abuse at him he took off back over the fence.
              When I mentioned I was going to get a knife he ran even faster. I was furious and meant it.
              he must have thought a five foot tall female wasn’t going to be any trouble.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Elfman made me say it.

      • Jo

        OT, Are you still playing Destiny? I’m now playin it on xbox360, looks worse, cartoony. Anyway before I reluctantly gave the PS4 back, I got to finish The Last Of Us remastered. Best storyline ever, made me cry a bit.

        • Observer

          Yep, I’m playing it on the Xbox one. My first character is level 28 and I started a new one this afternoon.

          • Scream Nevermore

            The ads for Destiny have actually made me consider buying an Xbox One, even though the TV functions apparently don’t work in the UK.

            • Observer

              It’s gorgeous. Kind of short at the moment, but they’ll be coming out with expansion packs.

    • Zer0

      Maladroit

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Sherb, I can wreak a little havoc if u like?

      • Sherbet

        I’ll bet you could. Would it be within the good taste parameters of the Bunker? Wait. There are no good taste parameters in the Bunker.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Thank goodness…because there is a high probability that I would “color outside the lines”.

          • Sherbet

            The trick is knowing how far to go before the Proprietor gets pissed off.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I just figure when he starts yelling at me…it’s a clue!

            • Sherbet

              That’s when we all point at you and say, “She started it!” and then WE don’t get yelled at, because everyone knows, well, Bury.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              lol, you all seem to thing I have some sway

            • Sherbet

              You’re special here. You can’t be reined it, you speak your mind, yet you’re compassionate and genuinely care about people. It’s probably the artist in you. Many Bunkeroos share the same trait, which makes the Bunker a unique place. I’ve come to (dare I say it?) love so many of you.

            • Zer0

              AND she’s good at puzzles

            • Sherbet

              Incredibly good. And she’s not the only one.

            • Zer0

              Oh really! Good to know;)

            • Sherbet

              Howdy, Observer, Espiando…smart, all of ’em. Me, I’m dense about that sort of thing.

            • Observer

              But your quick wit leaves me in the dust.

            • Sherbet

              And your talented artwork leaves me back at drawing stick figures. So this is a mutual admiration society. We all bring something to the Bunker.

            • Baby

              I bring the smokes..Hub’s Kools ( Just in case he comes back I can spit mine out for him)

            • Zer0

              Art, videos, music, puzzles and trolls…. you can find it all in the Bunker.

            • Sherbet

              And occasionally a discussion about scientology.

            • Baby

              Sherbet..damn it .. Just ran to the bathroom.. That is some funny shit girlfriend..hahaha

            • Sherbet

              Well, thanks. You’re a great audience. I’ll be here at the Bunker for the next few years, two shows (at least) a day. Don’t forget to tip your waitress.

              And now I’m really packing up. I’ve got a seamy James Ellroy novel to read and ice cream to eat. I’ll see you all soonish.

            • Baby

              Yummy.. relax..

              My Tip ” Bluebell in the 9th ” xo

            • Observer

              Exes, under-the-radars, indies, Old Guard, never-in … all are why I love this place, fractious as it can be.

            • Sherbet

              Me, too. Goodnight, all.

            • Observer

              Night, Sherb!

            • Baby

              No he will just say..
              ” Now baby I will give you a warning..What did you do to Bury to make her act that way..?”

              WE ALL HAVE YOUR NUMBER BURY.. The jig is up!

        • grundoon

          “There are no good taste parameters in the Bunker.”
          Shhh!!! If John P hears you, he’ll post that awful painting again.

    • Captain Howdy

      Watch this movie and tell me if it’s any good.

      http://www.solarmovie.is/watch-iron-sky-2012.html

      • Sherbet

        Oh, a documentary.

        • Captain Howdy

          Yeah, it’s a History/Discovery Channel documentary about escaped Nazis launching an invasion of Earth from the Dark Side of the Moon.

          • Sherbet

            Yes, I read the synopsis and it sounded like a true story to me.

          • Observer

            Does it have Crazy Hair Guy?

            • Sherbet

              ALIENS!

            • Captain Howdy

              I don’t know, but it’s got Udo Kier, which is even better in my my book. it’s suppose to be very enjoyable.

            • Sherbet

              If it’s raining where I am, it’s raining where you are, so curl up with a cat and watch it.

            • Qbird

              snowing here, on & off, nuthin’ stickin’ tho.
              yeesh – minnesota!

            • Zer0

              No shit! What time zone? I’m fooling around with my furnace

            • Observer

              She’s Central, but I’m Eastern and it’s supposed to get down to 35 tonight here.

            • Qbird

              You east of me Obs?

            • Observer

              Yep, Ohio

            • Zer0

              I used to live an hour outside of Columbus

            • Zer0

              Crap! Got to fire up the furnace!

            • Qbird

              Central – coldest place this side of the CA border… but it’s moving south & east. Fair warning.

            • noseinabk

              In MD I am still pouting over the geese coming in and kicking my dead tomato plants. Snow? I am not ready for fall.

            • Baby

              Travolta?

            • Observer

              No, he’s Creepy Hair Guy.

            • Baby

              Hahahahhaha

            • Sherbet

              The other night, Mr. Sherbet was watching one of those lame “documentaries” about aliens, and the story du jour was that Queen Elizabeth descended from extraterrestrials.

            • Baby

              hahahhahaha

              I’m watching Sci Fi now and barely gettin it..

              I’m still trying to process Lord of the Rings..

            • Sherbet

              My husband is a smart man, so I don’t know why he enjoys those crappy shows.

            • Observer

              He is obviously a connoisseur of cheese.

            • Sherbet

              More like “cheez.”

            • Captain Howdy

              Whenever i stop by neighbors who invariablely have their doors open due to spending too much time inside and and I ask them what they’re watching it’s usually Syfy or the action channel. it’s never IFC or Sundance (even though they’re a shadow of their former selves) or TMC.

            • Sherbet

              Crazy, isn’t it? The stuff is pure garbage.

            • Captain Howdy

              I use to know this beautiful hooker named Rachel who swore up and down that Queen Victoria was a man. She read it in Weekly World News

              Oh, Queen Elizabeth aliens sounds like David Icke, it must be.

            • Sherbet

              David Childress and Crazy Hair Guy (George Tsoukalos). Not Icke, I don’t think. Even Discovery/History think Icke is too weird for them.

              Queen Victoria looked like a man; Rachel may have been correct.

            • It has Sarah Palin as president.

    • Zer0

      Cool…. (image, refresh)

      • Sherbet

        Thanks, Zer0. That’s two of my favorite images. No, I’m lying.

        • Zer0

          That is an authentic photograph

          • Sherbet

            One of them is, anyway.

      • Baby

        It’s oily alright.. and so is the table

        • Observer

          Hahaha, zing!

      • Scream Nevermore

        I still want one of those tables!

    • Baby

      You know you could cuddle up with ” The Way to Happiness” book..I hear it’s a real page turner.

      • Sherbet

        You know, Baby, I suffer from insomnia. Are you dooming me to suffer from night terrors also? Sheesh.

        • Baby

          Oh baby girl.. insomnia me too sigh ; / Yep that would do it..

          • Sherbet

            Thank God for the Bunker night shift.

            • Baby

              Oh absolutely.. Last night of course we had Principal Howdy bossing all of us around.. and Jimmy got us all in trouble.

            • Jimmy3

              Sorry about that. I wanted to make it up to you by bringing some caek to detention, but I ate it all before I got there. :/

            • Observer

              *refresh*

            • Jimmy3

              That’s not fair. That cat is much cuter than I am.

            • Captain Howdy

              I make no apologizes for your lack of calcium.

            • Baby

              You need to Word Clear Mr. Principal.

            • Captain Howdy

              Hey, lets set-up a late night whist/bridge online team

            • Sherbet

              I haven’t played whist since about 1967. You’ll have to reteach me. Another time.

            • Captain Howdy

              I AM Mr. Whist.

            • Sherbet

              I believe you. You’re a man of many facets.

            • Captain Howdy

              Moar leik faucets.

            • Sherbet

              You have lots to “tap” into. Oh, gosh, that’s a Mooser brand pun.

            • Eclipse-girl

              no Euchre or Sheepshead?

            • Baby

              Hell to the yes on Euchre.. but going to bed with a movie..night E

            • stillgrace2

              How about cribbage or hearts?

            • Eclipse-girl

              Good choices.

            • Qbird

              Cribbage! 15-two, 15-four & a double run makes ROSES!

            • Captain Howdy

              Cribbage is hard.

            • stillgrace2

              Mr. Grace objects to the math involved.

            • Captain Howdy

              I second that emotion.

            • Qbird

              nuh-uh, makes you see patterns & count quick… best 2 person game out there. imo

            • Captain Howdy

              I know Q, in the underworld, Cribbage is King.

            • Qbird

              The underworld? Like @college?
              Wanna hear a pisser of an opinion re: Dandar & cos & Fla & shit?
              I wait tables, right… got a lot of regular customers, folks from all walks of life. I get to talk to them on occasion when business is slow. It was slow tonight. Talking to a lawyer dude, I tell him about Dandar…

              “Well, I’ll tell you this Q, if the client has unlimited resources, they can bend & buy the law. Period.”
              Me, “But, but… that just ain’t right!!”
              Him, “Yeah, but that’s the way of it.’
              Me, “FUCKIN’ A!”
              Him, laughing at me.

            • Captain Howdy

              An epiphany I had onetime when watching “Boardwalk Empire’ was that Nucky’s POV was much more realistic than Nelson’s. Nucky’s POV actually works for all involved.

            • Qbird

              ok. um…

            • Qbird

              I know you’re speaking English…
              Why ya always gotta hand out homework Capt?

            • Captain Howdy

              To clarify, i never made it past season 3, but what I’m trying to say is that under a corrupt system the wheels actually get greased and things actually get done, where as in a moralistic system they don’t because it’s based on fanatical idealism.

            • Qbird

              TV show, gotcha fine. I don’t watch much TV Capt..
              (damn it) This puts me at a distinct disadvantage regards…
              much.

              It would seem, I am a Don Quixote ‘duh’ La Mancha kind of wee birdie… always seeking out what is right, beautiful and true, instead of always seeing everything that’s wrong. It’s always so easy to see what fucked up in this world. It makes me weary. It is not so easy to find what’s all good. It is hard for me anyways & I am forever wanting to make things better, if it is at all possible, in whatever way I can.

              I suffer this fanatical idealism, I fear.

            • Captain Howdy

              I kinda know cribbage and I do know Hearts, and I really don’t know Bridge, but I suggested it because it’s similar to Whist which is the game of choice in jail, detox and rehab, which is where i learned it. I’m willing to learn.

            • stillgrace2

              I miss playing cards with real people in person. I love to play hearts and I am the queen of “shooting the moon” (taking all the points and shafting the other three players). The game brings out the killer in me. BTW- did you know it is now the top of the 18th inning- Giants vs Nats? Can’t believe it and I’m bored.

            • Captain Howdy

              18th inning? Dam, the Giants are hanging tough for a wild card,

            • stillgrace2

              Never discount the Giants, once they make it to the playoffs. It’s now the bottom of the 18th.

            • noseinabk

              We should just play bullshit if we want to stay on topic.
              How to Play Bullshit | 52pickup.net
              This is a card game about lying and deception

            • Qbird

              I was present this a.m. & now need to catch up.
              pssst – is that nasty wingnut still about Nose?

            • noseinabk

              I think not. But if you sort to best you will see some postings by an ex who sounds reasonable at first but then proclaims that the ex sea orgs are all a bunch of babies for complaining about the treatment they got. Asshole compares it to being in the Marines. Typical lack of understanding and empathy seen by the freezoners but this guy claims to be finished with it.

            • Jimmy3

              I used to play that with my cousins as a kid. But we were all mostly full of shit, and you pick up the entire pile when you’re wrong, so a single game would take an hour or more.

            • noseinabk

              I was about 12when my older cousins taught me that game so I called BS just for the novelty of cursing.

            • Jimmy3

              How’s about just casual poker? Hold’em or 5 card. For bunker points.

            • Qbird

              I got the nuts!

            • Baby

              OHHH Strip Poker.. Let me change my Boxers first..

              Night all..xox

            • Captain Howdy

              I’m up for that.

            • stillgrace2

              I like poker, too! Giants just won. Sheesh. I guess Hunter Pence earned his $42,000 today. That’s how much he makes each and every day of the year, baseball season or not.

            • Jimmy3

              We can play for free in private, passworded games on yahoo. Or any number of sites. But Yahoo games are generally good, and anyone can just make a throwaway account to play with and retain their privacy. I don’t think I’m up for it tonight, but it’s definitely a good idea. Late night Bunker cards would be awesome.

            • Captain Howdy

              OK. you and Grace are in charge for setting up a card game..MAKE IT SO!

            • Jimmy3

              It doesn’t require much setting up, on Yahoo you only need to pick a “game room” and create a new game with a password. It’s not permanent, the game dies when there’s no players in it. There’s no need for secrecy with the password if we’re posting it on the Bunker, the password is only to keep random people from stumbling into it. Whenever enough people are in the mood for a game, someone can create a new game, with a new funny password. The password has to be funny or Yahoo will ban you. (not really, but really)

              Mostly it only requires that anyone who would like to play create a new yahoo account that doesn’t reveal any personal info, preferably using a variation of their Bunker handle. Unless they are comfortable using an existing account. That’s fine too. This disclaimer is only for the obvious concerns.

            • Captain Howdy

              I’m serious.

  • Baby

    Quick question.. Has anyone seen the “Dark Hall ” on Syfy channel.. I taped it and didn’t know if I would like it..

    • Baby

      OMG forget it./. Tom Seizemore is on it.. LOVE HIM.. Will watch

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Perfect typo. Tom Seizemore.

        • Baby

          It wasn’t a typo..ahah I thought that’s how ya Spelt it ..xo

    • Observer

      I’m currently in bed watching a freaky anime called Attack on Titan.

      • Baby

        Ohhh enjoy!

    • Jo

      Have you watched The Leftovers? I loved it.

      • Baby

        No.. Off to find.. xo thanks jojo I’ll hearsay it first.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    I hope The Times wasn’t bought by a clam front group! But it wouldn’t even see remotely strange anymore…

  • What helped me more than anything to understand that “Tubby” was full of shit was talking to people who had actually worked with him, from “old timers” who had been with him in the 50s to former Sea Org staff from the Apollo. Everyone had a story of some idiotic thing Hubbard did, like an old timer (I believe it was Evans Farber) who told me in the lobby of Celebrity Centre (on La Brea in Hollywood) about Elwrong bursting into a room one time and exclaiming that he’d been hijacked by FBI agents who had injected drugs behind his eyes, but none of the people present could find needle marks. And then late one night at the Wilcox Hotel in Hollywood where Celebrity Centre staff lived, I saw the old fat bastard race by in a hurry, hit a dip, and bang his head on the roof – unmistakeable with those sideburns. I thought – Mr. Super OT can’t drive for crap. All these things kept adding up, and then reading Jon Atack’s book put the cherry on top of the whipped cream and I was gone baby gone.

    • Qbird

      Interesting hand you got dealt Skip. You’ve had the good fortune to get as close to {Source} as you possible could within your own lifetime… and then, Good End Phenomenon. Cheers, man.

      • Yeah, he was Sauce, all right – the informal definition – alcoholic drink – “she’s been on the sauce for years” — I think that’s why his teeth were so bad; being a fat alcoholic druggie tends to rot your teeth.

        Good End Phenomenon? The only $cientology term that applies to me isn’t that one – it’s the one I kept hearing from auditors who used “correction lists” after “security checks” on me always ended up with no problems found – “Nothing wrong in the first place.”

        I think learning so much about Hubbard and $cientology was God’s way of thoroughly showing me the true face of evil.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ RED X +–+RED X +–+ RED X *** FunSunday the 5th of October

    Good morning Early Birds and Night Owls,

    Thank you all the Exs for you stories, it helps us understand and care for you and still ins.

    Yesterday’s ads were down to a low 32 and our 4 Days list came crashing to 218 or a good 11 to 12minutes flagging, flag them all, blues & purples.
    See the tips & tricks about flagging in the left column: Dolly & Vistaril tech, Reboot Router Tech , Enthetameter Tech…… https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    For those who do not do the *4 Days List* here is the balance of yesterday’s ads, scroll up to flag the full day and the previous days: http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-115#post-2488000

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty AP, we are all invited to a SuperHero fun raising party

  • ehrm, ‘scuse me, but
    – the topic for two days running has been Co$ in England
    – A poster talking about being an ex-member in England stepped up and disagreed (slightly) with Tony,
    – commentards starting yelling “troll” although the poster was backed up by other ex-members (and a more or less modest protester, in addition)

    What could possibly be gained by no just holding it right there, I wonder?

    • Truthiwant

      I personally am going to reserve judgement on those comments. I could throw in my tuppence right away, but would prefer not to.

      • Baby

        You and me both TW.. Here is a mango margarita. Let’s watch the sunset

    • Robert Eckert

      He was the one who kept insisting on re-starting the fight.

      • endoftheQ

        No, actually I didn’t.

        • Robert Eckert

          There were no comments on that off-topic subject on this post until yours. Now give it up: it is simply not true that Scientology’s non-success in the UK is orders of magnitude different from the US; it is ludicrous to say that no-one does, or should, bring up past history when discussing other topics that are rooted in past histories; and it is annoying as hell that you keep coming back to this.

    • Oh just come out and say what you mean. I am tired of all this preachy passive-aggressive rhetorical questioning.

  • InTheNameOfXenu

    “The systematic destruction of Ken Dandar picks up speed”

    It’s horrible what the cult is doing to this man. However this action against Dandar will return to Scientology 10-fold.

    OSA can chalk this one up as their only success while the this crime syndicate continues to crumble.

  • Nightshade09

    Ok its great to remind a Scientologist about their former life before Scientology. Getting anyone out of this cult is great!

    But

    What about those poor devils that have been born into this cult and know nothing else then the Scientology life. That slave away at SeaOrg 20 hours a day for pennies.

    I’d like to know from former Scientologists and were born into it. How can I a reach them if I ever encounter them on the street. What can I planet in their minds so that one day they’ll blow the joint and into freedom? Is there anything I can say or plant in their thoughts?