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Does a judge’s order in the Garcia fraud lawsuit suggest trouble for Scientology?

Luis_Rocio_Garcia3We’re still waiting for a major decision from Federal District Judge James D. Whittemore in Tampa that will determine if Scientology can dodge a fraud lawsuit by insisting its former members have to submit all grievances to its internal arbitration system rather than litigate in a civil court.

But in the meantime, Scientology asked, and Whittemore granted, a seemingly minor request which we can’t help thinking hints at some trouble for the church’s arbitration gambit.

To explain how we came to that conclusion, it’s important to review some of what’s been happening in the lawsuit, which was filed in January 2013 by Luis and Rocio Garcia. The Garcias allege that they were fraudulently convinced to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to Scientology, which they had been members of for many years.

Scientology, as it has in other lawsuits, filed a motion to compel arbitration. The church has previously been successful arguing that Scientologists, even former members, must submit any complaints about donations to an internal arbitration system rather than to the civil courts, which have no business judging religious matters.

But the Garcias argue that this isn’t a religious dispute. They’re the victims of fraud, not former customers looking for a refund. Also, they say that Scientology’s supposed arbitration system doesn’t really exist, and they submitted affidavits by former church officials who say the language in Scientology contracts about arbitration is just a sham to prevent people from getting their money back.

The lawsuit has been delayed by numerous complex matters, but what’s been coming to a head is this argument about Scientology’s supposed internal arbitration system. Does it actually exist? How is it supposed to work? Judge Whittemore has asked the church to provide detailed explanations to these questions before he decides whether to compel the Garcias to accept arbitration and drop their suit.

And now Scientology’s attorneys have filed for the right to submit a document written in 1963 by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard regarding the church’s internal justice system, arguing that the contracts the Garcias signed refer to the 1963 policy when they talk about “Scientology’s Internal Ethics, Justice and binding arbitration procedures.”

In other words, at this late date — more than a year after filing its motion to compel arbitration, and weeks after oral arguments were held on the motion, Scientology is still trying to prove that it actually has a legitimate system of internal arbitration that the Garcias should be compelled to use.

But looking over the 1963 policy written by Hubbard, Ted Babbitt, attorney for the Garcias, points out in his response that although by theory he should oppose the church submitting new evidence at this late date, he couldn’t help feeling that the document actually did a much better job for the Garcias.

Babbitt points out, for example, that Hubbard is describing rules for a “committee of evidence,” Scientology’s version of an internal court proceeding which is meant to determine punishment, not arbitrate monetary disputes.

Babbitt continues…

The ultimate authority for reviewing the findings of a Committee of Evidence is L. Ron Hubbard who has been dead for 28 years….It is, in fact, exquisite proof of the absence of arbitration rules and is understandably never mentioned in the Arbitration Agreement.

Judge Whittemore, in a brief order, decided to allow in the document. But in that order, he included a very interesting caveat. Scientology has ten days to provide evidence for its assertion that “the procedures and rules governing a Committee of Evidence apply in arbitration proceedings.”

Babbitt and the Garcias then have ten days of their own to respond to whatever the church submits.

We can’t help thinking the judge just gave Scientology an impossible task.

“Prove to us that your criminal rules of procedure govern divorce court,” might be one analogy for what the judge just asked of Scientology’s attorneys.

Scientology will no doubt have an interesting response for the judge, but at this point, Judge Whittemore seems rather skeptical.

Says one of our legal experts, “Once again, it appears that Scientology leader David Miscavige is ordering Wally Pope to take actions which make sense only to Miscavige. Of course, there is a possibility that Pope will somehow connect the dots here, but Babbitt’s analysis makes clear that this is a very remote possibility.”

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on September 30, 2014 at 07:00

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Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

 

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  • Miss Cabbage

    So the “ball” is in Scientology’s court. Hopefully, it is just fired out of bounds.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      This last move seems to keep it in their court, as only in their court can they then pull out any in house justice rule that suits them.

      Only in their in house system are they in total control.

      I think it simpler to quit per one’s UN Declaration of Human Rights right to quit and change one’s religion without penalty, and THEN sue them for one’s repayments and just refuse to follow ANY in house rules that one no longer is expected to follow since one is NOT a Scientologist any longer.

      It could be that insisting on keeping this in house on Scientology’s side, is also to keep their right to ONLY refund/repay when the person is STILL a member.

      I don’t recall if at the time of the Garcia’s suit, were they members or were they Declared SP members, I think it would have been important that they had officially quit, but even if they were still members, in life people ought to be allowed to quit a religion at any moment and then proceed newly legally within the laws of the land one’s in, because at the moment of quitting, I would think that the laws of Scientology would cease to apply to one just like all the rest of the religion of Scientology would no longer apply to one! Outside laws should rule!

      • Mark Foster

        It´s an issue of fraud-and the lack of redress, whether they quit or not. And the ¨laws ¨ of Scientology are simply beliefs/agreements that adherents comply with, wittingly or unwittingly. ¨Contracts¨in
        Scientology are misnamed, as there is no parity between parties and no lawyer present when these contracts are signed : the signer of the contract forfeits basic legal rights like a minimum wage, health care, unemployment insurance, a work-place that complies with OSHA work-place standards…and the contractor/employer is ¨allowed¨ to torture(sleep deprivation, malnutrition, beatings, abusive interrogations, etc.), imprison, and utterly ruin the signer/employee/¨parishioner¨ -and to justify doing so with Scientology ¨scripture¨.There is a loooooong trail of legal and anecdotal evidence that supports the assertion that Scientology not only rarely give large refunds in a prompt, courteous, and straightforward manner, governed by a viable arbitration system, but that it aggressively seeks to denigrate, ostracize, and destroy anyone with the temerity to demand a refund.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          One thing I’d like to see Scientology make public, is the segment of the “Auditor’s Code” movie which shows the refund repayment actions.

          A paper ought be written, and one of my now dead goals was urge “new religion” scholars to get up to doing papers on Scientology’s justice system and on Scientology’s refund/repayment system.

          The outside world conclusions have all been correct, but proving the system of Scientology’s equals the conclusions takes dull laying out their Hubbard rules and even their own in house films from Hubbard.

  • Volunteer SP

    It doesn’t have to make sense; it’s Scientology. 😉

  • whingeybingey

    The whole idea that they even have an “arbitration” system is ridiculous. At best they have kangaroo courts which would shame a banana republic, not to mention a kangaroo.

    • DodoTheLaser

      This.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      And for long gone members who’ve changed their religion I’ve always wondered how does Scientology get off enforcing their rules on non members!

      A quitter, who’s officially quit, is really NOT subject to Scientology’s in house rules and procedures, simple as that!

      So sue away!

      • Davescomm

        The whole thrust of the church is to supersede the law – a throwback to medieval times when the church and state were one and the same. The framers of the US Constitution got it right when they made religion an individual matter. One can have any religious beliefs one wants, but one cannot act in any way one wants. But religion is always personal, beliefs are always personal, and one can change those at any time without prior notice. The SCOTUS has upheld this for over a century, legally. Very legally. In a fairly recent opinion they noted that and wrote something very close to “we are not likely to change our opinion now.” Coming from the Supreme Court, that’s pretty powerful language!

        • Robert Eckert

          On the other hand, in the Hobby Lobby case SCOTUS twisted itself into pretzels to find ways for “Good Christians” to evade laws they don’t care for.

          • Eclipse-girl

            And just yesterday, they allowed Ohio to reduce the time for early voting.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          Agreed.

          One of the reasons I had the goal, now dead, to urge some new religion scholar to do an in depth breakdown of Hubbard’s “Introduction to Scientology Ethics” book which lays out the on paper intricate intertwining justice system of Scientology’s (the one that pisses off those who today have to deal with it).

          Intertwine “Introduction to Scientology Ethics” system with Hubbard’s standalone claims that his whole Scientology bureaucratic movement and the 1980’s judge that said how Scientology mirrors the mental ill health of Hubbard makes total sense!

          For sure, outside Judges need a book tailor made of Scientology’s judicial (in house and outside world) history.

          • Peter

            As I’ve mentioned before, Chuck, scio ethics is in direct violation of the Code of Honour. If you do one, you can’t do the other. Hubbard specifically said that ethics is SELF imposed, then immediately contradicted himself.

        • Scream Nevermore

          In mediaeval times, the church and state were separate, but fighting a war for ascendancy. The church always maintained the position that clergy should appear before ecclesiastical courts to answer for their wrongdoings, not before an ordinary court. Which is effectively $ciloonery’s position.

      • Eclipse-girl

        This may be what Vance Woodward is doing. I thought he had officially quit and that is why he wants a refunds of his accounts.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          I hadn’t paid close enough attention, sorry, but if so, I’m coming up to speed to totally agree with that!!!

      • whingeybingey

        That’s an excellent point!

    • Stat Push

      This is brilliant! Scnists are in for a rude awakening when Hubbard’s infallible policy is reviewed in a court of law. Like everything Hubbard touched, Scnists consider it to be godlike perfection. And they don’t even have the option of rejecting it or changing it = They’re fucked.
      Of course they will explain it away as a psych-funded attack, or psychotic wog courts, etc, and will even use it to justify fundraising, none of which will make the pain go away.

      • mimsey borogrove

        If the court does what you posit, then they will appeal on religious freedom rights and get it overturned – it is a bear trap to sidestep the fraud charge and meld it into a religious issue which they can win. The Garcia’s lawyers are no doubt aware of this. Mimsey

        • April

          Yup the CO$ desperately wants this to be a religious issue when in fact fraud is really a criminal issue.

      • joan nieman

        They will be destroyed using their own weapon. Not Excalibar but Karma.

      • Observer

        It’s the semicolons. The evil, suppressive semicolons.

    • Meccaanon

      Well and the fact that Scientology rules don’t supersede the laws of the land. A Comm Ev is a nice thing I suppose, so long as all parties agree to it, but is doesn’t mean squat to the US courts.

      • whingeybingey

        I can tell that you’ve never had a Comm Ev, because a Comm Ev is NEVER a nice thing! :p Even a Court of Ethics sucks.

        • Meccaanon

          More to the point of why anyone would voluntarily submit to such a thing. Scientology “ethics” are only about how much money a person can bring into the organisation.

          • whingeybingey

            Well, that’s what a person’s cult identity does – out with the brain, in with the stupid! Lol!

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      Endless in house detailed rules by Hubbard are for his little cult kingdom.

      It’s not just Miscavige’s small mind view here, Hubbard’s whole premise is his Scientology system is supreme, and the more that Scientology lawyers blur the power story of who’s in control, the more judges don’t remember the basics.

      The basics are the outside court system is supreme.

      A cult leader’s rules being implemented by a tough minded fanatical cult leader today might be an elaborate system, but the outside legal system’s laws and applicability are supreme!

      • L.Ron Hubbard

        Chuck dear fella, fetch me a pick me up I have jingle bellss in my head today.

        -Ron

    • Elendira

      Ma’am. I am going to have to stand up for my kangaroo cousins. I know that they have a strong dedication to justice and the uncovering of the truth, unlike those koalas. Those guys are just for show trials.

  • DodoTheLaser
  • Eivol Ekdal

    I wonder which version of the policy they have submitted?
    http://www.xenu-directory.net/scriptures/

    • aquaclara

      It’s one dated September 7, 1963. (The link is attached in Tony’s article. Click on the blue).

      Would you know how this compares to the other versions?

  • Observer

    This is aesthetically, insouciantly, delightfully theta news!

    • 🙂 We’re counting our Thetans before they’re blown, though. 🙂 I’d love to see the Dwarf publicly buggered but I think prison is badly needed for the crim.

  • NOLAGirl

    I love me some Ted Babbitt. His response is well thought out and, to me, pretty funny. Hope the Judge agrees with him.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I would love to meet Ted Babbit, Ray Jeffrey, Leslie Hyman, Ryan Hamilton, MIchael Flynn (the man who represented Garry Armstrong at one point) and others who have taken on this cult of greed.

      Add to that list some of the authors / researchers / journalists like Paulette Cooper, Richard Behar, Hugh Urban, Lawrence Wright and Tony O amount others.

      • NOLAGirl

        Book my seat at that round-table. I won’t even talk, I just want to hear their stories. 🙂

  • DodoTheLaser

    “Scientology has ten days to provide evidence for its assertion that “the procedures and rules governing a Committee of Evidence apply in arbitration proceedings.”

    It’s going to be 10 long, miserable days in RTC.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Nice doggie pic, as a bonus.

      • Juicer77

        Beautiful dog. The guy ain’t too shabby, either!

        • Elendira

          Please, Ma’am, Officer Fluffy is on duty.

        • April

          Personally, I’d hug both of them.

        • PickAnotherID

          The dog seems to be thinking, “Oh, man!! Do I really have to take him for a walk now??”

      • Dancing Cranberry

        Love German Shepherds – and their facial expressions. This one has that WTF! look.

      • Christian terrorist using dogs to commit crimes against us. How cute.

    • PRenaud

      ho god… $cientology’s sleazy lawyers will have to cook up a twist in Hubtard’s internal arbitration system policies, I can’t wait to read how desperate they are.

    • PickAnotherID

      And the last sentence says, “Plaintiffs may rebut such evidence within ten (10) days.” Which, considering results of Comm Ev’s are pretty much predetermined, sounds like another shot for Mr. Babbitt to hammer at the fraudulency of Cof$’s arguements.

    • The crooks could just make something up, claim it’s always been in force. These filthy criminals aren’t above forging their own BS and shoving it in front of a Judge and demanding it’s decades old.

  • Mark Foster

    Yoda voice: ¨Stupid is as stupid does.¨

    ´A Committee of Evidence, abbreviated as “Comm Ev”, and is a tribunal that deals with serious offenses. According to Scientology policy, the Committee of Evidence is only convened at a church member’s request or when there is evidence of serious wrongdoing by a church member.´

    And that…is… arbitration?? WTF?

    • Asking for a refund is serious wrongdoing.

      • Sunny

        Asking for a refund is automatically a suppressive act and would result in an SP declare. Bringing Scn to Court is another SP Act and they would be permanently expelled. Which is not a bad thing.
        Another important point about Comm Evs is that the members assigned to do the Comm Ev have other posts and jobs to do and are expected to do the investigation OUTSIDE of normal post hours. You know how overworked Sea Org members are already and now can you imagine they will be conducting this with no sleep or food or what? They are not allowed to do Comm Evs during regular hours and they have to be done outside of post hours. You know that alone is enough to piss off the members….

    • April

      The way I interpret that statement is that a Comm Ev is used solely against an individual church member suspected of wrongdoing, not a church member against the church itself for wrongdoing.

      • Mark Foster

        And THAT is what the church is using as an example of it´s ¨arbitration¨ process, hence my ¨wtf¨ reaction…

    • Peter

      LOL In the many years I was in, I never once heard of anyone calling for a Comm Ev on him/herself.

  • Asbestos Inspector

    I love these kind of stories Tony! I hope they keep coming in droves!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    The UN Decleration of Human Rights says one has the right to change one’s religion.

    To me, this step, of first changing one’s religion, and then requesting one’s refund/repayment, would dodge the Scientology arbitration requirement.

    Because a person of a now different religion would NOT wish to abide by any Scientology “court” arrangements.

    Possibly, in future, to gain one’s “Repayments” or sue for Refund of one’s large donations, one should first officially quit official Scientology, and that way make it clear one will NOT be engaging in any of one’s former religion’s arrangements or courts or rules.

    People out here who’ve long ago quit Scientology, just make that first step, make some legal announcement of one’s UN Human Rights change of religion away from Scientology.

    And then apply for repayment/refund, or sue, whatever. Because one will NOT be agreeing to any of Scientology’s rules since one is not a Scientologist any longer and Scientology cannot enforce their religious rules on one who is no longer a member!

    Chuck

    • Observer

      And doesn’t Scientology claim to support the UN Declaration of Human Rights? Maybe that should be introduced.

      • NOLAGirl

        And they use their “support” of it all over the place, almost every day. Exhibit A from 4 hours ago on Twitter:

        https://twitter.com/YFHumanRights/status/516869319666708480

      • Sid

        Scientology is a world of opposites. They promote in areas they are weak in.

        The Way to Happiness; because they aren’t really happy. Just pretend happy.
        Declaration for Human Rights; because they imprison their own.
        WISE; well because…
        Criminon; misdirecting from their own crimes
        Narconon; well, this one might just be for the money.

        • April

          Narconon…because the CO$ is addicted to other people’s money?

          • Sid

            You know I never thought about it that way but it is a bit like an addiction. Every week by Thursday 2 pm they have to have their ‘fix’. And like drugs it takes more and more to satisfy the craving.

    • Stat Push

      Good point Chuck. Something like… participating in Scn arbitration process is against my religion 🙂 I like it.

  • Narapoid

    This could be another fig leaf of “credibility” blown away in a Federal court. Judge Whittemore could lay out a response to haunt Scio from now on. It seems we were watching another Federal Narconon case and once a finding is expressed in a Federal case, it will be citable everywhere. Babbitt is *so* ready to tear apart whatever Scio submits in support of their codified fraud that this could kill internal arbitration. This could be one of the riders of the apocalypse, legally.

    He he! They were grasping at straws, trying anything and wound up stepping on their pecker!

    • Reading Babbitt’s filings it looks like he’s enjoying kicking the ass of a criminal enterprise. 🙂

  • aquaclara

    Anybody have any stories of committees of evidence?

    • Stat Push

      I had a Comm Ev which resulted in my SP declare. I found the whole process amusing. I was read a list of charges and asked how did I plea on each count, which I did. They then proceeded to accuse me of some pretty outrageous things. Unflustered, I simply asked them for evidence. They were completely unprepared and spent most of their time shuffling and rummaging through papers. When they finally produced their “evidence”, I read it and found it to be unrelated to the charges! I then had them read it aloud, afterwards they said, “So you disagree with that?” Give me a break.

      To be honest, I felt kinda sorry for them halfway through. They were really working hard to make their charges stick. I soon realized this had absolutely nothing to do with truth or facts. I then told them I’ll make their job easy – I quit.

      They found me guilty on all counts and declared me.

      • Sid

        Count yourself lucky. They might have made you sit and write O/Ws for a few weeks.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Hahahhaha! Yep.

        • Stat Push

          Yeah, good point. Then again, could had one of my BTs do it. Nobody rides for free.

          • Sid

            This made me laugh.

      • DodoTheLaser

        But did they have the cassette player recorder? lol
        What a fucking joke.

        • Stat Push

          I insisted on it! Didn’t want some squirrely justice, I want the real thing.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Did you keep the tapes? Ted Babbit may be able to use them.

      • aquaclara

        So it was all made up crap, with a pre-determined outcome, meant to punish you. What a system. Glad you’re out. Nobody needs that kind of harassment.

        • Stat Push

          The way this normally goes is, they will start with some report written by someone (anyone really), misduplicate what was written, spin it to make it worse than it was and ignore context.
          Then they will look for another report that they can misduplicate and spin to corroborate the other report. If they can’t find a report, they will approach someone who knows you (or doesn’t know you) and overtly/covertly force them to write a damning report which appears to support the first report.
          Repeat this recursively until desired “evidence” magically comes to light.

          • giggler

            They are the giddy limit

          • aquaclara

            Magical evidence. This should hold up well in a real courtroom. I hope Babbitt knows to read here today. Can lawyers laugh and cry all at the same time?

            And for our on-the-fence friends. Today’s a beautiful day to jump down off the fence. Walk out, walk away, throw away the Basics stored in your garage or living room. And come enjoy the real world. And if you have a legal case, there are real lawyers who may agree to represent you. In a real court.

            • Stat Push

              Let me give you a scenario on how this works (for those unfamiliar):

              Bob is being Comm Ev’d and charged with the following:

              Discouraging or prevent another from moving up the Bridge
              Failing to apply KSW #1 points 1 to 10

              Background:
              Bob is approached by the org reg and a public named Joe. Joe is being regged for services. Joe does not have the money. The reg pushes Joe to ask Bob for the money. Bob has reservations, but ends up loaning the money to Joe.
              Joe is unable to keep up with the payments and is under financial stress. So much so, that he can’t really be “in session”. He is pulled off his program and ordered to Sec Checks.
              Bob is also under financial stress, since he is having to pay Joe’s monthly loan repayment; so much so that Bob has to take a second job.
              Because he is now working a second job, Bob cannot be on services. Joe continues to flounder and Bob gets more and more desparate. Bob requests a Chaplain’s Hearing to sort out the matter with Joe. The Chaplain is typically ineffective, frustrating Bob even more. Bob is now ARC broken with the Chaplain, Joe and reg (who claims no responsiblity).
              Reports are written by Joe, the Chaplain and the reg, about how nattery and disaffected Bob is, and that he is NOT on services.
              Bob is seen by the org’s Ethics Officer (EO). The EO insists Bob take responsibility for the cycle and assigns him lower condition. Bob has no time to scrub the toilets and withdraws from the whole mess. The EO, bent on saving Bob’s thetan, will “up the ethics gradient” until Bob turns around and “gets with the program.” Bob is having none of it.
              Eventually, a Comm Ev is called on Bob.
              The Comm Ev gathers up all the reports written on Bob and accuses him of:

              Discouraging or prevent another from moving up the Bridge
              Failing to apply KSW #1 points 1 to 10

              The Comm Ev finds him guilty of applying pressure to Joe and causing such a present-time problem for Joe that he could not move up the Bridge. He is also found guilty of creating a problem for the org, thereby distracting them from clearing the planet.
              And because this is such a huge problem Bob finds himself in, he obviously is not applying Scientology to the sitation, thus violating KSW #1.
              Bob will also be found guilty of not availing himself to the tech, because he is no longer on service. Joe, on the other hand, is treated relatively lightly because he is “on services”.

              There you go folks. Scn “Justice” at it’s finest.

            • George Layton

              KSW – Keep Siphoning Wallets.

            • aquaclara

              Wow. Just wow.

            • Mark Foster

              AC, how about a bon-fire for those books? And Stat Push, thanks for sharing your stories/insights.

      • valshifter

        That is funny, sounds like being in court with the red queen in Alice in wonderland, “off with his head” regardless of whatever the charges were, and no need for evidence. “off with his head” That is too funny.

    • Eclipse-girl

      It is always rigged against the individuals and for scientology

      • Stat Push

        I’ve posted this elsewhere, but is worth repeating…

        The REAL objectives of Scn Justice:

        1) Preserve, at all costs, the reputation and public image of the organization and/or its agents.
        2) The investigation or presentation of truth or facts can never be done at the expense of #1 above.
        3) Any decision rendered by the committee shall present the org, its staff or LRH in the best possible light, even if this at the expense of the truth and/or the public individual.
        4) If the individual refuses to submit to the committee, or no longer wishes to participate, that individual must be cast in the worst possible light. If they are not an enemy of the church, them must be made into one.

    • DeElizabethan

      I only have a story of no committee of evidence. Things were going poorly for me in ethics and since I was made to study the Ethics book, I found it says something like, at a point one can request a committee of evidence. So i enthusiastically did to the officer and was ignored, but it ended that problem.

  • Sid

    I was asked to be on a CommEv once. The Exec who asked me told me what he wanted the findings to be before it even started. I told him I hadn’t seen any evidence yet. He said fine, go through it but this is what the findings need to be. I said I’d vote how I see the evidence leads.

    Once I saw the evidence I voted that the guy was innocent of everything that had been brought against him. I wasn’t even sure why he was there. There must have been some other reason somebody wanted this guy gone.

    Anyway no matter what I voted it was all just ignored anyway. The whole thing was a show just to say they did the CommEv. The Exec had already decided and they gave the guy the boot.

    Before he left I went and apologized to him and told him I had found him innocent and had voted that way.

    In looking back I think he was the lucky one. By getting booted out he probably ended up having a life.

    No matter how credible a Committee of Evidence sounds, within the bounds of Scientology it’s a farce.

    • aquaclara

      That’s the scam, in a nutshell.
      You did a good thing, Sid….

      • Sid

        For some strange reason I was never asked to be on a CommEv again.

        • DodoTheLaser

          The person who was in charge of my Comm-Ev blew shortly after, got declared too and later apologized to me. Really good guy. He was a Snr C/S in Cincinnati Org for a long time.
          He is doing extremely well now.

          • Sid

            People can change for the better. Just not in Scientology. Afterwards they have a chance.

            • Verve

              You are doing a good job. We all make mistakes. It’s how we deal with them afterwards that defines us. You’re doing a fine job being a good person.

          • Peter

            When I was removed from post after a kangaroo court in which at least one of those testifying against me was lying through his teeth, I thought for a couple of weeks about the injustice and realized that I, too, had been involved in such injustice, mostly by refusing to speak out when others were so abused. I then called up about 20 such persons to apologize to them, tell them they had been right, not wrong, and how could I make up the damage. I was rather astounded when every single one of them said, in so many words, “You just did.”

            • Sid

              I still have a world of apologies to make. Could take years.

            • aquaclara

              It’s just me, but I think you covered it beautifully here.

            • Sid

              Thanks aquaclara but there are a few really important ones I’ll need to make. Hopefully I’ll get the chance.

            • aquaclara

              Good luck to you.

            • Peter

              I’d suggest beginning by apologizing to and forgiving yourself. The one thing sure is that you were doing what you thought was the best option at the time. There’s no sense in beating yourself up because you realized later that it wasn’t right.

              It’s not necessary to track down every single little “error” you made. List out the major ones where real damage occurred due to your actions or lack thereof. Then give it your best shot. Spending the rest of your life living in a state of “mea culpa” won’t help anyone, least of all you.

              In any case, I wish you well with it.

            • Sid

              Thank you Peter.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Some case gains, eh? You are awesome.

            • Stacy

              You did a really great thing calling all those people.

            • Frank Lee

              Every lawyers magazine is full of ads for paid “expert witnesses”. Have any of you who have been through this process, ever thought of contacting these lawyers to offer your testimony as proof that the proceedings within CO$ are nothing short of a scam? There should be an entire network available to those who challenge CO$. United you stand, divided you fall ….

            • JustCallMeMary

              Hi Frank, attempts are made to counter witness as many scientology and narconon case experts in court cases as possible. People do step forward and provide statements of facts, Affidavits are often included in cases. In regards to th Scientology front group, Narconon, their medical expert, Dr Louis A Casal who helped push the program, actually agreed with the opposing attorney in a deposition that Narconon’s Sauna Program claims were not true. This deposition has since been quoted and used against Narconon in a multitude of lawsuits against Narconon ever since. https://www.google.com/#q=narconon+lawsuit+casal

            • Frank Lee

              Good to know! Dr. Mark Robin Geier hooked up with a couple of Scientologists and was treating autism with the chemical castration drug Lupron. He appeared many times as an “expert witness” before judges and attorneys began to recognize that something was wrong. Eventually he was proven to be a quack and his license to practice medicine removed in every state. Sometimes it is a slow process.

            • Stacy

              What the hell?! Treating autism with androgen inhibitors? wtf?!

            • JustCallMeMary

              Thank goodness he lost his license!! Yes, scientologists go to great lengths to cure things with dangerous off label alternative medicines and procedures because they think all drugs are evil. It stems from Scientology’s anti-psych conspiracy indoctrination. They are so misinformed about autism… it’s scary. It upsets as well to see so many scientologists die of lack of appropriate medical care, especially in their ‘treatment’ choices with cancer.

            • Verve

              Autism, castration. Tomato, tamahto.
              Seriously, WTF!

            • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

              This suggestion is very sensible.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              Outsiders have the best views I’ve come to conclude!

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              got links, email me, we should put the links on all the chat sites prominently.

              Subscriptions to these magazine, I’d be glad to buy a subscription myself!

              chuckbeatty77@aol.com

            • Verve

              Give it time. The way Hambo is going, it’s going to be lucrative career choice…

            • Realising that the criminal organization known as the “church” of $cientology has made you both a victimyand a victimiser is, IMHO, a very important part of the healing process. And the Co$ does depend on its victims being horrible to each other – that’s one way of making sure that the victims do not group together. (Read also the end of “1984.”

            • Verve

              Great way to be awesome, sir.

            • richelieu jr

              Wonderful Peter, and a wonderful, human, far-thinking reflex. Every time someone– no matter how many times they bowed their head,s loked the other way oracceded tot eh Cult’s injustice– Every single time they think of their fellow human beings as individuals with feelings and put themselves in their place, the Cult loses.

              I am no Christian, but I ahve always thoght that the phrase attributed to Christ, the ‘golden rule’: ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ was a truly revolutionary concept and a hard one for organized religions (or any regime) to swallow.

              For me, it is why Christianity remains a religion (with some within it who commit terrible crimes in its name) and Scientology will never be anything more than dirty little cult looking for the net person poorly-informed enough to pick up those empty, empty cans.

          • BosonStark

            It’d be a shame if Scientology ever got rid of this Comm-Ev sham, because it appears the way out for a lot of people is the way through a Comm-Ev, either as subject to one or being made to serve on the committee. It serves as a Bridge to Total SP.

            However, there are probably a sufficient number of people who tremble at the thought of having one and that keeps them in and working, or coughing up money, right?

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            The whole Scientology operation layers of incompetence papered over by the good intentions of those in it, but who were influenced to act badly to suit the often bad tempered “executives” who were grappling themselves in layers of even higher incompetence, reaching all the way up to Hubbard’s policy, and like that great 1980s judge said, the movement mirrors Hubbard’s mental ill health!

            People struggling with Hubbard’s badly laid out system.

            At least ex members can honestly apologize without some sort of penalty from Scientology! (From dead Hubbard’s mind turned into church policy.)

            • Verve

              Well said, Chuck. It seems all of $ci “policy” is infected with Lurch’s (thanks Richelou, I’m still doing it) crazy.

            • richelieu jr

              You’re welcome! Let’s ALL start doing it!

        • Lady Squash

          Consider yourself lucky. They are political weapons pretending to be noble justice.

    • Sid

      Okay, here’s a little tidbit for an addendum. Tory/Magoo had a bogus CommEv with the same Exec.

      “ALL of their “OT Consultants” Stood by, watched Harvey (Schmiedeke) and Dan Owen run this completely disgusting, bogus, basically gang bang out-tech “Committe of Evidence” on me (where I NEVER got to even speak -only present my side in writing, and Harvey met with Dan and gang ever day. NOT ONE of them, including Barbara Weisman (who claims to be such an authority on the tech) would even stand up for the tech, let alone me. SICK—truly sick. Huedi Fair was another one I remember who laid down for this CRAP.” Tory/Magoo

      (By the way Harvey was Ex-Go.)

      http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?7271-Data-needed-on-Arte-Maren-amp-Harvey-Schmiedeke

      • Frank Lee

        Does anyone know where this “Dan Owen” resides, i.e., what city, approx. age, etc.? I want to be sure it’s not someone I have had contact with ….

    • Stat Push

      Sounds like a Standard Comm Ev to me 🙂

      • Sid

        Yup.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      So true.

      And even if you can stand the outrageous injustices, play angel, and keep appealing per policy, and most importantly keep your angel cool attitude and STACK up every policy violation and have those policy violations witnessed and dated, all along, then when you get to the Board of Review appeal level, I’ve been on Boards of Review, and the loophole in your favor happens at the Board of Review level.

      If you can’t stand the wait, you can Petition much earlier, and LRH used to approve lots of people’s Petitions.

      Petitions cut the Gordian Knot injustices that stop one, but you have to have an LRH who’s in a good mood with you, and you have to play fawning angel to LRH’s greatness in your Petition so he approves everything back your way!

      The system can’t be trusted, it’s bad because on paper it looks workable, but senior viewpoint of what has to happen prevails.

      When I was on a Comm Eve, Review Comm Ev or Board of Review, I ended up in my later years being the “Secretary” member and I’d do the policy homework, write it up all per policy, submit it, and the Verifying Authority in AVC would have an impossible time overruling what I’d submitted.

      AVC people would know which way the wind blows for the person, and even if the submitting Secretary like me made it totally clear, just like you say, if the opinion was against the person under justice action, no matter if the evidence was for them, the submission for final justice would stall.

      The person would be left out in stall mode, since the top deciding people in Scientology who knew best would NOT approve justice.

      Not unless DM (earlier LRH) had a change of heart, and what it takes is for the person asking for justice to play angel and bow down in praise of the top leaders!

      • Sid

        “senior viewpoint of what has to happen prevails”

        Aside from whatever the wind blows around on it, the system boils down to this.

    • Anonymous

      There are many excellent precedents for the farcical Show Trials that Scientology calls it’s internal Comm Ev process.

      The Lysenko agriculture pseudo-science fiasco in the Soviet Union is a great example, complete with fake “science” and exiled / executed folks serving as “heads on pikes.”

      More info here: http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/lysenko.pdf

      For those with interest and some time to read the material at the link, you will see some astonishing similarities between Lysenkoism and Scientology.

      • Stacy

        Fascinating. Nice to see someone actually remembering to include Engels when discussing Marx.

      • Sid

        It would not surprise me if LRH stole parts of this from them also.

        • Anonymous

          It is very clear that he did.

          The ” Brainwashing / Synthesis of Russian Psychopolitics” booklet which Hubbard wrote, is essentially a manual on how to mix fake-science, with propaganda and authoritarian political mechanisms.

          Not surprisingly, Hubbard hid that he was the actual author of the manual and claimed it was written by “Beria” the head of Soviet secret police and that by issuing it Hubbard was “warning” Scientologists about Communism and drawing parallels between that idealogy and the “enemies” of Scientology.

          • Sid

            I remember seeing that book in the Org bookstore back in the ’70s.

            • Anonymous

              Yep.

              Hubbard charged people money for them to read a manual (which he secretly wrote) that purportedly “warned” them about EXACTLY the very techniques he was using to defraud them.

              Scientology is almost too hideous for words…it defines evil and deceit. And it defines those two terms so well, that it then hides behind the very definitions.

            • Sid

              Scn: “This is not a prison”.
              Scieno: “Why are you locking the door”.
              Scn: “To protect you from SPs”.

            • Anonymous

              Perfect.

            • Lady Squash

              Good one. That gave me a laugh.

            • Lady Squash

              Well said. I have that pamphlet about brainwashing. I could hardly believe it when I realized that it was a classic case of misdirection–look what the communists are doing over there–when it was exactly what he was doing. Too surreal. He was a magician ya know. He knew all the tricks except how to cure his own madness.

      • Joe Hurtado

        Thank you for posting this link. Absolutely incredible and fascinating. The Lysenko fallout probably affected Soviet crops for decades.

        • Anonymous

          Many millions of people died of starvation because of the politicization of the “science” and forced collectivization of Soviet agriculture.

          It is a metaphor for similar horror stories elsewhere and a warning about letting politics overtake scientific endeavors. Bad things almost are certain to occur when those two studies merge.

          • April

            Tbh, allowing religion to take over scientific endeavors is just as disasterous.

            • Anonymous

              Probably more so.

            • Joe Hurtado

              Stem cell research, global warming anyone? When both religion and politics conspire, the results are just plain damaging if not disastrous to humankind.

            • Verve

              We got into that problem when science had to turn to the government for funding. Want to get funded, better be in-line with the current administration’s view points. “Green energy” is nice and all, but has an company ever been successful without tons of gov money? (I’m all for it, but none of them can come up with a proper plan that makes economic sense, or if they do, it gets shot down; re: wind power off of New England’s coast- it would ruin the Kennedy’s ocean view.)
              /rant

            • Anonymous

              Careful…many a firefight has been started on this board by bringing up global warming…folks are very passionate about that topic here and it can get ugly fast! 😉

            • Joe Hurtado

              It has? I didn’t know since I’m mostly a lurker and occasional poster when life permits. Thanks for the heads up.

          • Peter

            The worst politics can be and are played within science itself. Vested interests abound and change is often sluggish.

          • richelieu jr

            I always think of this when I hear someone in Congress saying ‘I’m no scientist, but this Global Warming is a Hoax!”

      • Lady Squash

        “Farcical Show Trials”–nicely said and sadly so true.

    • mimsey borogrove

      About the policy which shows a com ev, is not an arbitration.

      My question is this:

      If, the court finds that a com ev is not an arbitration, and that there is no such valid, legal arbitration in Scientology, can the other couple (who’s names I have forgotten) that sued in Florida and lost ( the court, in essence, ruled against them, and told them to get a scientology arbitration ) – can they take this precedent, and file an appeal to have their judgment over turned?

    • Quoting Tony’s excerpt above

      *the procedures and rules governing a Committee of Evidence apply in arbitration proceedings.*
      Utter rubbish.
      A Committee of Evidence is a Justice action. The group gets *JUSTICE* on someone for their transgressions, sins and *overts.* Penalties are assessed and it has NOTHING to do with arbitration
      proceedings. I could quote this that and the other from the green volumes but I will save readers the boredom.

      • Sid

        I know. I was just commenting on CommEvs and hadn’t mentioned Arbitration in my comment. And it was mainly to point out that from what I’ve seen there is no real justice there.

      • Sid

        Whether it’s arbitration, mediation, or Committee of Evidence I don’t think there is any fairness to be found there.

        That quote “the procedures and rules governing a Committee of Evidence apply in arbitration proceedings.” was apparently from the Judge as the church had submitted a policy on CommEvs to support their position on Arbitration. He was asking them to support the view that they are connected. You are right that it is rubbish, but the church is somehow trying to make a position that they do have procedures and they are somehow related.

    • Lady Squash

      Yes, I’ve been there. I was comm ev’d once and found guilty. I never did really understand the “offense”. The “evidence” made no sense to me. But I had pissed off the ED and that was that. The Comm Ev was her revenge. It made no sense, hurt me deeply, but still I made excuses.

      • Stacy

        That’s so sad. When a supposed justice system is nothing more than a way for the corporation to legitimize its leaders personal beefs, it’s no justice system at all.

      • Sid

        I don’t think they ever find anyone innocent.

  • sugarplumfairy

    Once a competent judge actually takes a look at co$’ internal arbitration system, it should be a moot point.. Their “arbitration” is an embarrassment..

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “Says one of our legal experts, “Once again, it appears that Scientology leader David Miscavige is ordering Wally Pope to take actions which make sense only to Miscavige. Of course, there is a possibility that Pope will somehow connect the dots here, but Babbitt’s analysis makes clear that this is a very remote possibility.” ”

    It could be Miscavige wishes an opportunity to rectify the matter internally just to maintain the system that they have which has been shattered by this whole suit.

    But to me some big issues are still being left out of the mix.

    Do we know if the Garcias were official Scientologists still at the moment of their refund/repayment request?

    Because if not, then the Scientology system wasn’t applicable to them. The Scientology system is only applicable to people who ARE Scientologists.

    Ex members would not have to abide by Scientology’s religious courts’ and justice rules since quitters are no longer Scientologists!

    When a person quits Scientology’s religion, they have no ethical moral or legal obligation to still follow the Scientology in house laws and justice system.

    The real world’s court system is the deciding and applicable system for resolving suits isn’t it, when someone doesn’t want to abide by the Scientology system.

    What were the Garcias when they requested their refund/repayment and their suit?

    • Peter

      I think the important point here is that the Garcias have leveled a FRAUD suit at them which has nothing whatsoever to do with a “refund request.”

      • Davescomm

        Yes. The allegations of fraud are a civil matter, and that should be what the court focuses on, ignoring the red herring of “religion.” The church was established under the laws of the land, and must abide by them. Alleged violations of laws of the land are a civil or criminal matter, not a religious one.

        • April

          Fraud could be prosecuted as a crime, not just a civil matter, at least in the USA.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        yea, good point.

        This has been too much for me to comprehend it all.

        The whole church justice/repayment rules requirements are truly irrelevant then!

        I’d agree to keep it that simple!

    • April

      I honestly don’t see how criminal behavior (fraud) is a matter for internal arbitration by the very organization being charged with fraud.

      • Davescomm

        Two!! And a free throw!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Scientology International Justice Chief…

    • Sid

      Good one. I did chuckle when I read that.

  • BosonStark

    But, but, but Dr. Hubtard is still very much alive and continuing his research on Mars! His Ecclesiastical Royal Highnass, Mr. Miscabitch, said so himself.

    I’m sure that if Mr. Miscabitch could just send him a telex, he’d be willing to serve mankind for dinner as the ultimate authority for reviewing a Committee of Evidence. Dr. Hubtard would certainly rule in favor of fleecing a member of their last dime, across all dynamics.

    • Observer

      He’s not on Mars, silly. He’s either doing the Cause Resurgence Rundown around a distant star, or bringing the light of Scientology to Target Two, or, being the super Thetan that he is, doing both simultaneously.

      *refresh*

      • Sid

        Okay, that is funny.

      • BosonStark

        Well, it’s high time he got his big boots out of the sky and walked them down here to prison-planet Teegeeack as an Ultimate Authority, because we gotz some money involved here, and if this religious angle is supposed to fly…

      • endoftheQ

        Aw, you can see the waves of body odour thetans emanating from him. 😉

      • Dr_Orpheus

        It’s obviously a planet more than twenty-eight light years from Earth since we haven’t heard from him yet.

      • Stacy

        What is Target Two?

        • Observer

          The unspecified planet to which Ron was next going to bring total freedom after dropping his meat body here.

          • Stacy

            Ah. Of course he had a plan to explain why he wouldn’t be reborn here on earth with total recall of all his previous lives. Who in their right mind would want to remember being LRH in a previous life?! I’d slit my wrists to end the misery of recall.

            • Observer

              You’d just come back.

            • Stacy

              Shit…

            • Eclipse-girl

              recursion / reincarnation – its a bummer

      • Sid

        Still chuckling over this one.

      • OK. That’s funny! It’s something that every scientologist has pictured in their mind, but without realizing how funny and ridiculous an image it is. Thank you.

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        Axis tilts explained!

      • L.Ron Hubbard

        I am Omnipotent

  • Davescomm

    The law is very clear that no matter what the religious beliefs, no church is senior to generally applicable law. That has been tried and upheld many times, with unequivocal opinions from the SCOTUS, in beautifully clear and forceful language which only an idiot or a lawyer could possibly misinterpret.

    • Peter

      From your mouth to God’s ear! 🙂

      • Davescomm

        The whole thing could have been so straightforward.

    • That’s not entirely true, the Mormon cult was just judicially found to be allowed to abuse children as slave labor. There are other Christian cultists that have been determined to be above the laws of the rest of society.

      Scientology is organized crime, however, not religion.

  • just one today….working on a couple themes and i had a kitty pass suddenly saturday evening 🙁 talked to dr. yesterday and he thinks it sounded like a blood clot to his lungs….quite depressing….

    Hey Happy Birthday!
    Gonna yell ’bout baby rape?
    You need some psych meds!
    @JennaElfman #scientology #haiku #GirlNeedsHelp

    • Observer

      Hahaha!

      EDIT: that’s for the haiku, not the kitty. I’m sorry for your loss; we’ve been through that three times in less than four years, and it sucks.

      • Oh I know you wouldn’t laugh at the kitty Obs! It does indeed suck. I lost another one just a few months ago, he had a stomach tumor. It never gets easier. Never.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Some of us were thinking about you.
      Sorry for the loss of a kitty. He/she is an angel now.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQmXmmUMyRE

      • Aw, thank you Dodo, yep, he’s a kitty angel with the rest of my crew who have passed before.

    • NOLAGirl

      Sorry to hear about your kitty. I know how much you love all your fur-babies. Take comfort in knowing you gave him a comfortable life. Sending you lots of (((hugs))).

      • Thanks NOLAGirl. What was so perplexing to me, at the time he passed, was I couldn’t understand what had happened—as I had taken him to the vet Thursday and he was dx’d with asthma and he got a steroid shot and he had shown improvement. After talking to the doctor Monday though and describing what happened, etc he’s pretty confident it was a blood clot to the lungs and there is no predicting (nor fixing) that. 🙁 (((hugs)))

    • aquaclara

      Sorry about your kitty, Miss Tia. Hope things get better soon….

      • Thanks aquaclara, I hope they do too!

    • Stacy

      I’m so sorry to hear about your kitty. It’s awful when we lose our furry family members

    • Eclipse-girl

      (((HUGS))) about the fur ball. We had to put down one of our two earlier this year. It was for the best, but it was still hard.

      • It is NEVER easy to do that—even when it’s the right thing to do! ((HUGS))

    • Kittery

      Sorry for your loss, Miss Tia.

    • Captain Howdy

      I’m so sorry.

    • Elendira

      Sorry about your Cat. Would you like ours?
      Black Longhair Domestic (asshole)
      16 year old diabetic (8years diagnosed)
      Hates: dogs, people, babies, reality in general
      Loves: food
      Goals: Live forever on Hate and Spite.

      • That’s amazing they’ve lived 8 years with diabetes! I’ve had several diabetic kitties. 2 were diabetic until they passed and both had uncontrolled diabetes—we could never get the dosage correct as it kept changing! Another kitty was only temporarily diabetic due to a liver infection. I am SUCH a sap I still have Mouse’s last compound insulin bottle in the fridge from 2005.

        • Elendira

          Well Reference the last line. There will be only two things left alive at the end of the world, cockroaches and Mr. Kitty — still hating the universe at large. He is the perfect Sith!

  • Red alert! Red alert! Religious shields are failing! Main weapons are offline!

    • endoftheQ

      You need to take a little blue pill, in that case. 😉

    • kemist

      Too late !

      Someone has found a certain unshielded exhaust port…

      • But Captain Miscavige is always so careful about his exhaust port…

  • Dorothy Gale

    In my 20+ years in Scientology, my experience with anything remotely thought of as “arbitration” went like this: “he who is giving us the most money- wins”. And according to LRon and one of his scriptures, (believed to be scientific fact by Scientologists) says that people with large grievances are withholding crimes against Scientology. Therefore, the Garcia’s, according to Scientology “scripture”, are already considered guilty. One could muster up multiple witness testimony that proves members with large grievances (like Leah Remini, for example) are always sent to Scientology’s version of purgatory and forced to “confess” their crimes, at their own expense, sometimes for years. Then if that does not work to get them in line, they are simply declared to be a “suppressive person”, and all of their family members who wish to remain in Scientology will be forced to disconnect from them. Scientology is not a religion, but rather an intricate and elaborate system of coercion, which begins the day you are recruited into the organization.

    • Sid

      That’s true. And the so called W.I.S.E. arbitration/mediation system is the worst. Total sham.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Scientology is the church of absurd, where everyone is a human monkey on fire straight from the grotesque imagination of Hieronymus Bosch, borrowed and sprinkled with “theta” by Hubbard. Ugh.

      • Kittery

        “Church of the absurd”. Perfect.

      • Mark Foster

        There was an American children´s show called ¨Mr. Rodgers Neighborhood¨ You can look for him on Youtube if you are not familiar with him…Okay, so…imagine him intoning the following: ¨Can you say
        sprink-le? I knew you could!¨

  • Sunny

    I have never ever ever ever ever in my 32 years in Scn and 17 years in the Sea Org, EVER seen a Comm Ev award anything. It is always used for discipline always. And in every Comm Ev I ever had, during the interviews, which are all recorded, it was very clear they had made their decision long before evidence was collected.
    When a Comm Ev is called, an issue is put out that lists the name(s) of the persons being Comm Eved. Then they take every single offense listed in the ethics book (misdemeanors, crimes and high crimes) and list any possible ones that you could be guilty of. The only line of questioning I have EVER seen in a Comm Ev is to ask you if you are guilty or not of each offense they have listed. Whether you say guilty or not, they find a way to say you are guilty and explain why.
    Fact-finding body my ass.

    • Sid

      So far from reading the comments of others’ experience with CommEvs and from my own, I don’t know if there’s ever been a fair and just CommEv, ever.

      • Espiando

        To describe a CommEv as a “kangaroo court” should leave them open to a class-action suit by every marsupial on Earth.

        We all know that he wanted a military court-martial process here to join his little fake Navy in his little fake world. But no military that I’ve seen has had a policy stating that if you disagreed with something, you were automatically guilty of any charge that can be brought against you. KSW can be easily worked in to the scenario, too easily worked in.

        I feel sorry for anyone who’s even been through a CommEv. I feel more sorry for anyone born into Scientology who believes that a CommEv is an improved version of the debased wog justice system.

        • Missionary Kid

          It is an improved version of the debased wog justice system, if you’re on $cientology’s side, and not the person accused.

        • Qbird

          CommEv = Kangaroo Court… yup, yep, hip hip go Scn Inc ~

      • Observer

        “Fair and just” and “Comm Ev” are mutually exclusive. As far as I can tell it was never set up to be fair and just, only to give the illusion that LRH was both of those things.

        • Sid

          Exactly.

  • NOLAGirl

    O/T: It’s The Picture of the Day and I’m sure Ryan Hamilton will enjoy it immensely.

    https://twitter.com/Scientology/status/515576575593435136

    • Elar Aitch

      Simply stunning how Scientology has not been able to (or doesn’t care to) react to current lawsuits by distancing itself from the Narconon brand.

    • Jimmy3

      That one pic makes it look like a mass is taking place, right? But Narconon is secular…

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        I think what they are going for (and failing) is the appearance of gatherings similar to AA meetings.

        • Jimmy3

          I’m sure you’re right about that. But the pic has a weird, culty mass vibe to it.

      • endoftheQ

        Nah, it’s a presentation, that’s a slide representing a “piece of blue sky” in the background, the preacher presenter is warning them about the dangers of reading it. 😉

    • Anonymous

      They never stop with the attempts to wear disguises. Putting out these pictures during the current Narconon litigation storm is classic Scientology PR.

      “See how calm and peaceful everything is here?

      Why are we being “attacked” for trying to help people?

      Those horrible, money motivated lawyers just hate Human Rights.”

  • Science Doc

    Mike Rinder is reporting that the entire staff of LA Org has been terminated and replaced with 100 Sea Org.

    • Sid

      I guess that’s one way to get instant Saint Hill Size!

    • Maybe they’ll merge it in with AOLA Day and Foundation?

      When the LA Org is a garrison org, it’s all going down the drain.

    • Bob

      This is exciting. David MustChangeThings is now blatantly violating Hubbards policies. This is like the first rain. A harbinger of the perfect storms to come. This is truly the winter of discontent for Scuzzatology.

    • Reality check: Where did they borrow 100 Sea Org from?

      • Science Doc

        Yesterday Rinder reported that they combined day and foundation at ASHO into a single org.

        • Yes, but I doubt it was to free up Sea Org to garrison the LA Org, more like ASHO was short of people. If they’ve put “over 100 Sea Org” into the LA Org, where did they take them from?

          • Mark Foster

            RPF, maybe?

            • If so, hopefully they’ll figure out that it’ll be harder to send them back to the RPF without opening a hole that can’t be filled.

    • grundoon

      Rinder posted this report from a “special correspondent”…

      I just spoke to someone who is on course at LA Org – Day. He told me that LA Day and Foundation are no more and it is just one ‘LA Org’ manned by Sea Org now. This was told to the staff last night and the public today. My son is an ex staff member at LA Org so he was pretty shocked.

      He said he saw Hat turn overs all day long today. All LA Org staff contracts ended today but those who want to stay on can. Many staff members left after turning over their Hats to the SO member taking their place. He said over one hundred SO members have taken over LA Org.

      LA Org staff had to do a short routing form just to make sure they had no ARC break over it. There is no ethics, no sec-check, no freeloader debt. They could just leave today if they wanted to. Many did.

      • Stacy

        What is the 12 1/2 hour per week enhancement requirement?

        • grundoon

          Staff are supposed to study Scientology during that time.

          • Stacy

            Is it any particular hat, or whatever they want?

            Thanks for the response, btw.

    • From Rinder’s blog:

      I just spoke to someone who is on course at LA Org – Day. He told me that LA Day and Foundation are no more and it is just one ‘LA Org’ manned by Sea Org now. This was told to the staff last night and the public today. My son is an ex staff member at LA Org so he was pretty shocked.

      He said he saw Hat turn overs all day long today. All LA Org staff contracts ended today but those who want to stay on can. Many staff members left after turning over their Hats to the SO member taking their place. He said over one hundred SO members have taken over LA Org.

      LA Org staff had to do a short routing form just to make sure they had no ARC break over it. There is no ethics, no sec-check, no freeloader debt. They could just leave today if they wanted to. Many did.

    • Followed by

      All Execs were given the handshake – basically told to go.

      All Tech staff; supervisors, auditors, C/S’s were asked to stay. However, when their contracts are up they must go (or can join the SO).

      Tech staff who are staying have to get on SRD.

      All others were given the choice to stay with the proviso they MUST do 12 1/2 hours of enhancement each week. If they do not meet the 12 1/2 hours of enhancement, they will be routed out.

      Most staff left. Many were young and have no idea what they are going to do next.

      The Routing Form (leaving Org) was very short with no ethics or sec checking for staff leave. No freeloader debts for those who got training at Flag and left early on contract.

      The “spin” put on this by the churchis : LA ORG HAS GONE SAINT HILL SIZE.

  • Sunny

    I just looked at my last Comm Ev issue again. I got SP declared for THREE HIGH CRIMES. There are tons of High Crimes available and I get Suppressive Person declared for offending against 3!!! Think about that. How many High Crimes would they list for the Garcias? How would it be any sort of just justice?

    • Espiando

      Sunny, just out of curiosity, are you able to list the High Crimes cited without risk to anyone? I think we need a good strong cup of You’ve Got To Be Fucking Kidding Me right now.

      • Sunny

        CRIMES:
        1. MISCONDUCT (reclassified as Crime due to severity)
        2. REFUSAL TO UPHOLD DISCIPLINE
        3. PROTECTING A STAFF MEMBER GUILTY OF A CRIMES OR HIGH CRIME LISTED IN THIS CODE
        4. NO REPORT (Reclassified as Crime due to severity)
        5. BEING A KNOWING ACCESSORY TO A SUPPRESSIVE ACT
        HIGH CRIMES:
        1. SEXUAL OR SEXUALLY PERVERTED CONDUCT CONTRARY TO THE WELL-BEING OR GOOD STATE OF MIND OF A SCIENTOLOGIST IN GOOD STANDING OR UNDER THE CHARGE OF SCIENTOLOGY, SUCH AS A STUDENT OR PRECLEAR
        2. VIOLATION OR NEGLECT OF ANY OF THE TEN POINTS OF KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING
        3. WITHOLD OF VITAL INFORMATION
        What was this Comm Ev about, anyway, you ask?
        I kissed a girl and I liked it. Yep. That was it!

        • NOLAGirl

          All these crimes mean is you fit in perfect here. 🙂

        • kemist

          So kissing a girl (sorry, a SCIENTOLOGIST IN GOOD STANDING) is SEXUALLY PERVERTED CONDUCT.

          But IIRC, going past a “misunderstood”, aka failing to look up a word in a dictionary, is also a high crime, so that’s not really surprising.

          These people are nuts.

          • endoftheQ

            Yup, it’s a sop to JT. 😉

          • Eclipse-girl

            Kemist – you are forgetting why Espi and others want to end this criminal enterprise.

            Anyone lower than tone 2 (?) was better off dead.
            Espi and others are 1.1 on the tone scale

            • April

              According to LRH not only were they better of dead, but that society would be better off if they were dead.

            • kemist

              Ah, so that’s why.

              That did not even register to me.

              I must be a very, very degraded being.

            • Eclipse-girl

              We luv degraded beings here.

              (((HUGS)))

            • Stacy

              The KKK uses a burning cross; scientologists use the tone scale. Disgusting.

        • BosonStark

          I’m sure the Cherch would get the Garcias on neglecting one or more of the 10 points of KSW — very serious stuff indeed. You wouldn’t need Dr. Hubtard to rule on that one.

        • Jimmy3

          I didn’t have a favorite Comm Ev before this one.

          • Sunny

            Yes but if the Garcias end up with one, I would suggest they make their own recordings of the interviews and then they would be given a copy of the Findings and Recommendations… and the BS that is Scn Justice would be oh so LULzy….

        • DodoTheLaser

          Next time you decide to get your eternity back, try not to kiss anyone.
          It’s counter-productive.

        • Missionary Kid

          Didn’t Katy Perry sing a song about that? I Kissed a Girl

          • Sid

            Yes, and her parents are very strongly Christian which made for a bit of tension. Their daughter kissed and girl and they didn’t like it.

            • Missionary Kid

              As much as they disliked it, they didn’t disconnect, either, did they?

            • Sid

              No. They still go to her concerts.

            • Missionary Kid

              I was raised as a strictly fundamentalist Christian as Katy, yet my parents never disconnected from me when I left their faith. I got prayed over a lot, but we always had a family relationship.

              In $cientology, if you disagree, then you don’t really respect someone, so you don’t love someone. Therefore, you must disconnect.

            • Sid

              I know. It’s a sad thing about Scientology but something that will very much contribute to their downfall.

          • Espiando

            So did a British group called the Sundays, back in 1989-1990 or so. I thought Katy Perry’s song was a remake of that one before I heard Perry’s song.

        • grundoon

          Sure beats drinking bleach as a way to get out of the Sea Org.

          • Sunny

            Seen plenty of people do that too! But it is faster to get out that way.
            I was under Comm Ev and under 24 hour watch for 3 or 4 months. I had to do renovations or clean all day long. I was supposed to do so willingly to show ethics change. Ha, what a joke.

    • Sid

      Bogus! I’ll call them and ask them to redo it. You should have more than 3 High Crimes. Don’t settle for less than 5 or 6.

  • JustCallMeMary

    My take? This is a fascinating footbullet on the defendants’ part! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=footbullet

    • Espiando

      Mary, this is one place you don’t need to post a definition of “footbullet”. We pretty much use that word here on a daily basis.

      • JustCallMeMary

        That may be the case but I did that for the benefit of the many lurking current and former scientologists and general public who may not know what the heck it means. Just saying 🙂

      • Eclipse-girl

        I liked the link – it references the co$ in the definition.

  • Mark

    My, those Comm Evs go back a lot further than you’d think (refresh, with sincere apologies to William Hogarth):

    • Sid

      If LRH had seen this picture he would have bragged that this was actually him in a past life.

      • Mark

        I hope they never let the old faker into Cambridge: the painting’s called ‘The Bench’ and is at the Fitzwilliam Museum there.

    • April

      Haha I love the sawing logs.

    • Stacy

      What? There’s no Snortimer…

      • Mark

        He’s still struggling with Krusty’s knickers 😉

        • Qbird

          A tough thankless job to be sure! (smilin’ big here)

        • Stacy

          Lol that is a gargantuan effort

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “In other words, at this late date — more than a year after filing its motion to compel arbitration, and weeks after oral arguments were held on the motion, Scientology is still trying to prove that it actually has a legitimate system of internal arbitration that the Garcias should be compelled to use.”

    I always thought, when I was in, that “we” had a refund/repayment system, be part of our thought process, and we allowed refunds/repayments, and there IS a history of Scientology refunding and repaying.

    I wish the judge had asked Scientology to prove their claim, and give SOME evidence of Scientology’s actual history of refunding and repaying, and not just elaborately dodging the refunding/repaying as the Garcia’s I believe are arguing (correctly in their case).

    The huge backstory of how many refunds and repayments that Scientology has in house allowed over the decades IS relevant history!

    I wish the judge would get Scientology to give some proof that their refund/repayment procedures ARE real!

    • Observer

      They’d trot out Bendy Brian Whatshisface.

      • Chee Chalker

        Culkin?

        • Robert Eckert

          That’s the one.

        • Observer

          Ah, thank you! I was well on my way to be being driven insane by my inability to remember his last name.

          • Robert Eckert

            Oh, I thought you were intentionally not wishing to name him (“taboo avoidance”, see down-thread).

          • Chee Chalker

            He’s a weasal……one of those people who are drawn into the cult by the love bombing and false adulation. Must be an insecure fellow

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Brian Culkin?

        I was thinking of their last 4 decades of Refund/Repayments history rather!

        But Brian’s would be interesting proof of recent history anyways I agree.

        • Observer

          Especially since it appears they gave him his refund in exchange for his deposition.

      • stillgrace2

        “Bendy Brian” … I knew instantly who you meant!

    • Sid

      In the old days the refund policy was for any monies. Not just unused funds. I wish I would have taken them up on it way back then. College funds, inheritances, savings, all into the Scientology wind.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Wow Sid.

  • Ivan Mapother

    Some one refresh my memory…How do Scientologists in good standing on the CommEv board deal face to face with SPs in the arbitration process?

    • Sid

      Good point. They would automatically be PTS. I said this to an OSA person once that since they are connected to SPs in their day to day work they (the OSA person) should be declared. They did not like that.

      • Chee Chalker

        They have powerful OT shields that protect them from SP rays.

    • Eivol Ekdal

      Funny you say that.. they left out the reference in the HCOPL in the one they uploaded…

      • Eivol Ekdal

        …on second thought, thought notes after the signature may have been added by freezoners..

        • grundoon

          The notes are added by the Chruch’s Compilations department (RTRC).

      • Anonymous

        This of course was / is the ultimate safety valve for all flim-flam operations.

        Setting up a “justice” system that ultimately is headed by the very person most likely to personally benefit or suffer from the resulting decisions is EXACTLY the mechanism preferred by all tyrannies.

        Scientology is simply executing on a centuries old tradition of institutional injustice being made to look “normal.”

    • Mark Foster

      leather.bondage.no lubricant. await further instructions from target 2…

  • DodoTheLaser

    Fuck Hubbard and his brand of justice. And fuck OSA and RTC.
    Lurkers, thanks for lurking. Blow for good already. Thank me later.

    • Mark Foster

      This…times eleventy million…heh!

  • Gerard Plourde

    I can certainly see why Ted Babbitt was happy to see that document submitted. It clearly shows that there is no independent mechanism contained in the cult’s “arbitration” process.

  • Stacy

    Not that I mind in this particular instance, but I feel the need to point out the lack of logic on DM’s part here. You hire expensive and brilliant lawyers because you lack the legal knowledge and wherewithal to address lawsuits yourself. When you do that, you don’t then proceed to dictate to them how to manage the lawsuit. That defeats the whole purpose of hiring them in the first place. But since we’re talking about CoS, I hope DM continues to give his lawyers stupid, illogical directions.

    Good luck to the Garcias. I hope they don’t get forced into internal arbitration with CoS. I hope that the era of CoS hiding behind its religious status are over.

    • Gerard Plourde

      You bring up a very good point. The attorneys’ Rules of Professional Conduct (which vary slightly from state to state) generally state that while the client (in this case the cult, or more accurately, DM) has control setting the goals in the representation, the attorney is in charge of the means. In other words, DM should not be micromanaging the attorneys’ presentation not should he be dictating what evidence should be submitted. (That said, the document is something that probably should have been turned over to Ted Babbitt in discovery. Maybe it was and the cult was trying to get it out there now to minimize the damage.)

      • aquaclara

        There is something in Babbitt’s reply (link above, in blue) that seems to indicate he tried to get this entered in last year, but Scientology protested it. See what you think. I’m not sure I fully understood this part.

        • Gerard Plourde

          Thanks for the info. On my way to meet a client. I’ll look at it when I’m free and post a reaction.

        • Gerard Plourde

          Just looked at the filing – you’re right. Ironic that the cult is now proffering it. I can’t imagine that the lawyers were happy reversing course. It goes to show how out of touch with reality Miscavige is that he’d think this would help his case.

          • aquaclara

            Now, even the judge must be scratching his head. So maybe the Garcias will get the rest of what they asked for, which is to have whatever they submitted in the first place that was tossed brought back in to the case.
            There will be more to come on this case, to be sure.

            • Gerard Plourde

              Absolutely. Not to mention the cult’s lawyers. If it’s true, as it seems, that they successfully argued to have this document, which is damaging to their case, excluded for evidentiary purposes and to now turn around and seek its inclusion undoes all of the work they did to prop up their position.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I think it goes back to the days of the Lisa McPherson case. Davey thinks he is brilliant and a master at strategy. Scientology got out of trouble with that case. So now he directs every case. He doesn’t understand the WOG legal system, IMHO

      • Stacy

        I don’t think DM fathoms that he’s a complete idiot, IMHO.

        • April

          His level of hubris reaches delusions of grandeur proportions.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I have no affection for Davey.

          Others have stated that the man is not an imbecile. He is smarter than several people give him credit for. HE IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL, by any means.

          Others have stated that he reads people well. He may see what he perceives as weakness and drive in on those points (Like going after Mosey to hurt Marty)

          Davey does not understand the intricacies of legal matters. One opening to make a point, may let in a flood on information that would not be advantageous.

          • April

            He’s smart in a sociopathic way, not in terms of book smarts/intellectually smart. IIRC he didn’t graduate from high school and I doubt very seriously that he’s taken up any independent scholarly pursuits in adulthood.

            • HillieOnTheBeach

              I agree. The weaknesses of the cult mindset is what Miscavige took advantage of and have served him as well as they have. Had he been the CEO of any legitimate business, he would’ve been fired for a myriad of justifiable reasons a very long time ago.

            • Observer

              I’d call him crafty rather than highly intelligent. Shrewd.

            • Eclipse-girl

              You are correct. He left HS at age 16 to join the SO, following the step of his older brother Ron

            • Davescomm

              April … adulthood?

            • April

              ? Not sure what you’re asking. If you’re saying DM never reached adulthood emotionally or cognitively, then I can probably agree.

          • Stacy

            All good points. Honestly, I don’t doubt DM is intelligent; he wouldn’t have been able to take over CoS otherwise. I insult DM’s intelligence (and other capacities) because I only allow myself to insult him and LRH. I hold them responsible for the criminality of CoS. So when I childishly feel the need to name call, they are my targets.

      • April

        The only way that they won the Lisa McPherson case was by destroying evidence and pressuring the coroner to list cause of death in such a way that it minimized the CO$’s culpability in her death. Not sure how that strategy is gonna work in this case unless they’re going to blackmail or bribe the judge.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I agree. We know that Davey was the one who ordered that, too.

          • L.Ron Hubbard
            • Eclipse-girl

              He looks so damn slimy I would not buy a used car or anything from this man.

            • L.Ron Hubbard
            • Eclipse-girl

              How long do you think he was messing with Lou before he sent Shelley away?

              (For those who do not know, that is Laurisse “Lou” Stuckenbrock (? sp) sitting next to the slimy bastard)

            • Observer

              “An ecclesiastical giant such as myself should never go to court without his mistress!”

    • David is the only guy who knows what he’s doing, everyone else are traitors!

      • Stacy

        Of course they are! If they weren’t traitors, Davey wouldnt need to micro- manage, would he?

  • Jimmy3

    Liars

  • Chee Chalker

    I think the real question is how David Miscavige could possibly think that his “evidence” is persuasive. He’s not a stupid man and, as Mike R has said, DM is a quick study of people. I would love to hear his rationale behind this…I guess we will when Co$ files its answer to the judge’s order. I am sure some high level exs could provide documents and affidavits that directly contradict this LRH policy – a contradictory policy written by LRH to an existing policy also written by LRH.

  • HappypantsDance

    I don’t know much about legal matters, but I do get a good vibe from this turn of events. Best to the Garcias! I hope Co$ is painting itself into a corner here. My crossables are crossed that things go so well, others will sue, too. A class-action suit would be fabulous.

    OT but Co$ related. I had the weirdest dream, I guess from seeing my copy of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil and thinking about Minerva, the Voodoo Priestess…

    In the dream, I’m at the graveside of a dear Auntie. I ask her spirit if I can take some dirt from her grave to use in a curse against Scientology and David Miscavige.

    She asks why I don’t leave well enough alone, why I’m getting involved in something that’s none of my business. I tell her “they’re hurting people. A lot of people.” She then says “oh, that’s different. Take all the dirt you want.” 🙂

    • Sid

      I guess that’s one way to get the dirt on Scientology.

    • endoftheQ

      You’ve been asking for Ron at Bar Oujia again, haven’t you?! 😉

      • HappypantsDance

        I wouldn’t ask for Ron anywhere 😛

        • endoftheQ

          *says she, kicking cauldron under counter

          • HappypantsDance

            However, there might be a poppet with DM’s face on it, and bad things *might* happen to said poppet….

    • “My crossables are crossed” — LOL! It took me half a minute to ponder the meaning of this. 🙂

  • Missionary Kid

    In $cientology, ethics, arbitration, and justice aren’t.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “Babbitt points out, for example, that Hubbard is describing rules for a “committee of evidence,” Scientology’s version of an internal court proceeding which is meant to determine punishment, not arbitrate monetary disputes.

    “Babbitt continues…

    “”The ultimate authority for reviewing the findings of a Committee of Evidence is L. Ron Hubbard who has been dead for 28 years….It is, in fact, exquisite proof of the absence of arbitration rules and is understandably never mentioned in the Arbitration Agreement.””

    Gosh!!! To a policy nerd, like me, this is just asking for mega trouble on Scientology’s part!

    This reminds me of the Camel poking his nose into a tent, and it leading to the Camel soon sleeping in the tent for unintended bad consequences from Scientology’s side!

    Comm Ev policy has many other caveats, and the whole “Introduction to Scientology Ethics Book” intertwines with intricate unintended consequences, that only a “Sea Lawyer” (bad term for legalistic minded person who uses the rules to make everyone think things are hopelessly futile) could sort things out for a Judge or intelligent observers.

    I was a tiny bit of such a “Sea Lawyer” minded type in the cult.

    If Scientology’s getting Comm Ev to be the next level of adjudicating authority group in the case of disputed Arbitrations in Scientology, there is justification for that progression of internal Scientology justice.

    BUT, this means, ridiculously, that when the Comm Ev FAILS in the eyes of the Garcias, that the Garcias can request the following:

    a) Review Comm Ev to review the Comm Ev they feel unjustly rules against them
    b) Board of Review is the Garcia’s next option if they feel the Review Comm Ev is unjust
    c) Petition to Executive Director International if the Garcia’s feel the Board of Review unjust.

    NOW, in truth, I’ve been part of a) and b) above a number of times, as a sitting MEMBER who sat on the internal Scientology justice hierarchy progressive bodies, and the Board of Review HAS to find in the Garcia’s favor.

    To get oneself UP to being granted the Board of Review, though, takes years.

    At the Board of Review level, years in the future once one gets through these lower steps at which EVERYONE quits in disgust of Scientology’s fraudulent incompetence to even implement their own system on their members and even grant ANY of them these a), b) and c) steps in any kind of speed(!!!!!!!!!!!), let me say from my 4 years experience in Senior HCO International and later years just listening to in house judicial ongoing history incidents, the Board of Review has one step that is the supreme loophole in FAVOR of the complaining member (Garcia’s in this case), but ONLY if the Garcia’s have somehow kept their cool all the years it takes to get to that LOOPHOLE in their favor step.

    People playing along with the Scientology justice system have to pretend to be angels for the years it takes to get through that justice system, and if they do, by then, in history, Hubbard himself usually as the one people petitioned to, Hubbard would forgive all and remember them fondly and all would be well!!!

    Board of Review though, is the loophole, but I don’t recommend people WAIT for the years it takes to get up to Board of Review level.

    I’ve been on Board’s of Review, the loophole justice point on them allows the Board to overturn EVERYTHING back to the favor of the complaining Scientologist who’s stuck it out, played angel member, and weathered and not reacted like badly to the bad system!

    BUT, don’t expect this to be today’s history either.

    And this Camel Nose in the Tent putting their Comm Ev policy in a case move, will only lead to all the other details of their justice system that only works in their ideal world, and their ideal world needs proof that it even works in real life, a whole long difficult thing Scientology cannot prove.

    Ex members who played their roles on the Scientology justice system in various times in history can tell of the Comm Ev abuses.

    The Review Comm Ev usually is where it stops working.

    Boards of Review aren’t even called anymore than I know of.

    Petition hasn’t worked in decades.

    The Camel in the Tent true scene of Scientology’s on paper justice system for sure would take months to a year to even honestly gather the history and honestly neutrally lay it out, but that truth would be MASSIVELY against Scientology’s claims that their whole Comm Ev, Review Comm Ev, Board of Review, Petition system even works!

    Chuck Beatty
    ex Senior HCO Int, 1984-1986
    chuckbeatty77@aol.com

    • Missionary Kid

      In the real Navy and Marine Corps, the term “Sea Lawyer” means variously, (from the urban dictionary) “An old navy term, when at sea a sailor is a law expert, but in reality, they know nothing,” from Google, “an eloquently and obstinately argumentative person,” and (from Dictionary.com) “(nautical, slang) a contentious seaman.”

      In the real naval services, taking the role of a sea lawyer is a fast track to, at the least, a captain’s mast, where a C.O. of a unit decides on the non-judicial punishment that is to be meted out. At least, in a captain’s mast, the accused doesn’t have the outcome preordained, as seems to be true in any “hearing” in $cientology.

      It sounds as if in $cientology, anyone who raises any objection is immediately branded a “sea lawyer.”

      • Robert Eckert

        It’s the equivalent of “jailhouse lawyer”, a prisoner who spends all his time drafting hopelessly inept legal pleadings.

      • endoftheQ

        You hear barrack-room lawyer too. 😉

        • Missionary Kid

          Yup. I believe that’s the term used in the Army and Air Force.

      • As if Hubbard wasn’t the worst kind of sea lawyer himself.

        • Missionary Kid

          Excellent point. DM is sure one, too. In a real court, he’ll get his ass handed to him.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        I plead guilty of severe ignorance, I did a 27 year sentence as staff for them due to my stupidity. Scientology didn’t effect my stupidity problem LOL.

        • Missionary Kid

          I wouldn’t say you have severe ignorance. You were misinformed.

          Unless one has been in one of the Naval services, they wouldn’t know the term – unless they had been faced with the compartmentalization and isolation of $cientology, which has made every effort to make it appear as if the tern originated from Source.

          It’s natural that you wouldn’t know that the term is in wide use in the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.

  • Anonymous

    “Scientology will no doubt have an interesting response for the judge, but at this point, Judge Whittemore seems rather skeptical.”

    If ever a group’s statements demanded skepticism, that group is Scientology. Because the rules of evidence preclude dragging in the entire multi-decade history of Scientology’s disdain for and abuse of the legal process, a great deal of clever work will need to be done by Babbitt et al to ensure that there is sufficient relevant material introduced to weigh against the nonsense that Scientology will no doubt present about it’s internal “justice” system.

    Folks that have been personally involved with Scientology know that the deck is always stacked in favor of the organization in virtually any situation. The deck is further stacked inside the organization in favor of the hierarchical management ladder, with the higher manager always dominating the lesser actor, regardless of written policies. And that deck is stacked even further so that the hand dealt to Scientology Sea Org Captain David Miscavige is always the winning hand.

    How could it be otherwise since he is the managing agent of the entire organization and is the Ace of Self-Dealing?

    Heh.

  • Feckless Lemur’s plans to rule Scotland seem to have hit a snag:
    http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/scottish-scientologists-impersonate-clan-chief.120501/

    • endoftheQ

      That wombat lemur would mistake Ru Paul for Ron Hubbard. 😉

    • Observer

      Feckless indeed if Kirstie gets her grubby mitts on him. You know how she likes to hoard lemurs.

    • AutOmatic

      My god, “Ranald Macdonald of Clanranald” seriously begs for a shoop…DM as the Clamburgler even…

      • Someone should warn Jock Macdonald at the Toronto Org that Scottish Ninjas are after him.

    • aquaclara

      Nice work all around. I’ve now learned this is a real person, and love that Sophie will put this to rights.
      I first thought this Ranald MacDonald sounds like the name of a character one might see visiting the Golden Arches in Rochester, NY…

    • Juicer77

      I swear I thought Pete was having a joke on us. Ah, us Yankees 🙂

  • L. C. Spencer

    Shhhhhhhh Tony don’t tell them! 🙂

    • LOL! What’s amusing is that many people think the same thing, that giving the crooks ideas will help the crooks. Problem for Scientology is that David is the clown running the circus, the endless lawyers that David hires don’t seem to have much say-so in how they present a defense, so even playing the crooks’ side of the chess board for them still means David orders idiot moves. 🙂

      • L. C. Spencer

        Yeah, we all know from experience that they won’t learn from experience 🙂 But it’s just so funny that they COULD figure out everything they need to do to make their way forward in the world. If, IF learning from the world around them weren’t anathema. It’s reassuring, really — their rigidity is what ensures their ultimate exclusion from power. Adapt or die. They can adapt just enough to keep going in the short run, but they’ll never be able to prosper and become robust like the Mormons.

      • Missionary Kid

        DM is the biggest SP of all. Thank goodness.

  • Minion Gayle

    Gotta love those foot bullets. Hope they’re well stocked.

    • Observer

      Scientology “tech”: self replenishing footbullet ammo.

  • PickAnotherID

    I love the way Mr. Babbitt takes apart ‘Comm Eval = Arbitration” in his response. I also liked the bit about if this comes in, the affidavits from the plantiffs side should come in too. I think DM is grasping at straws with this one. I can’t wait to see how Cof$ trys to twist this into supporting ‘arbitration’.

  • Ruby

    I would love to see the cherch produce the written records for just one time when a comm ev was used as arbitration on refund issues. It can not, because it has never happened.
    While the cherch has refunded money at times, it has not been done thru arbitration/ comm ev.
    Mr. Babbitt’s comments are right on the money, so to speak. 🙂

    • scnethics

      No kidding. Refunds are given when it serves them, and the decision comes from above.

  • scnethics

    Based on this turn of events in the Garcia case, I’d say that Miscavige has been informed by his attorneys that if they turn over the details of scientology’s “internal arbitration system”, they’re fucked. So now they’ve cooked up some devious scheme to try to change the game, no doubt opening the door to some legal technicality that will help them escape.

    It must be hard for Wally Pope to represent scientology with a straight face.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Labyrinthitis is an inflammation of the labyrinth.

    It brings sensations of dizziness and lack of balance.

    Hiding
    (where is that on the Tone Scale, LilFiveOne?) at the heart of
    Hubbard’s labyrinth of lies, Der Punchin’ Munchkin is currently
    experiencing imbalance and vertigo.

    The Minotaur was the monstrous devourer of life of Greek mythology to be found in the centre of the labyrinth at Knossos.
    The
    Minotaur at the heart of $cientology’s labyrinthine injustice system,
    formerly El Wretch and presently Dildo MacSlappy, will be slain.

    The Garcias may play the role of Ariadne in providing the “clew”, the thread that allows safe passage, and Ted Babbitt may well be Theseus.

    If the Garcias win this one, the dam will break.

    Hambo’s 21 lawsuits against Narconon will soon be followed by a long queue of suits for fraud and refund requests.
    Let it be so.

  • vistaril_LOL

    “Scientology religion defrauded parishioners” – What a lovely headline that WILL be:)

    • “parishioners” — LOL! That always makes me smile. 🙂 As if the Gambino Mafia has “parishioners.” 🙂

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    Miscavige always seems to create traps for the himself, the church and his/its lawyers. The church has argued that its religious arbitration rules cover all disputes with the church, even with ex-members. In support of that, Miscavige/Pope asked the court to take judicial notice of the religious document, the HCO “CommEv” Policy. In response to the court’s latest order, I will not be surprised if, despite his request that the court review this policy, Pope argues that the court may not inquire into the policy because of the First Amendment’s bar against court intrusion into religious matters.

    What would Miscavige/Pope/church argue if the Garcias demanded that their names be inscribed on church plaques in the buildings the Garcia’s allegedly funded? Would it be that the Garcias are no longer members in good standing of the church and, therefore, no longer subject to the church’s rules/policies?

    Compared to Miscavige/Pope, Alice’s Queen of Hearts is a model of clear logic.

    • April

      I’m hoping that since the fraud could be charged as a criminal act in a criminal court rather than just civil court, that the “First Amendment’s bar against court intrusion into religious matters” doesn’t apply. It certainly didn’t stop the Feds from going after Warren Jeffs for his criminal behavior even though it was sanctioned by his religious beliefs.

      • Still_On_Your_Side

        April,
        I can’t see Pope’s religious argument working with this court. As for criminal activities: there is no First Amendment religious defense for statutory rape of young girls or boys, or murder, or, as you mentioned, financial fraud. Many Catholic priests, Baker, Moon, and Jeff, are just some of those who found out the hard way that this defense does not work.

      • If/When it goes to court we should see some perjury, actually a lot of perjury. Hopefully criminal charges and indictments stemming from those in David’s future. 🙂

    • David also got slapped when he tried to claim he is a religion when he’s arguing that Mike Rinder’s wife is destroying his business. 🙂

  • ze moo

    How can the ‘chirch’ take a comm-ev to its final stage these days? Lroon is somewhere out in the universe, does DM send him messages telepathically and get his answers back on on Ouija board? That won’t fly in any court.

    Hell, if you pore through all the HCO’s and the rest of the wit and wisdom of Lroon and you’ll find any answer to any question in at least 3 different ways.

    1. a way that gives the customer what they want.
    2. a way that gives management what they want.
    3. a way that gives Lroon what he wanted, money or adoration. He liked both currencies.

    In recent years, how many times has #1 been the final verdict?

    Hell, if you read Lroon’s writ of $cieno babble, you’ll find that he forbade direct donations. He said only sell services. So the clampire is totally out of worship of ‘source’ and is just a business. Of course, the court can’t comment or rule on the ‘orthodoxy’ of the current state of $cientology, but they can rule on how fair the current system is.

    That system fails every test of fairness. Especially the one that says you have be in good standing to enter the mOrg and get the refund form, because the instant you want a refund, you are no longer in good standing. The donation scheme Davy has set up is intended to keep the money flowing without allowing refunds. ‘Monies on account for services and courses’ has been an accounting problem for the clams since day one. While individuals and the local mOrg may know their balances, the clams are known for taking that balance and sending a pallet load of the “Lroon Encyclopedia’ out to the customer without their permission. That clam account is about as safe as your bet on a game of 3 card monty.

    Inviting the courts into the ‘refund’ and ‘monies on account’ schemes is a major foot bazooka. When DM runs out of stupid motions and time wasting appeals, he will make a settlement offer to the Garias. He has no choice, continued rulings will only force major changes to pyramid scheme and they invite IRS attention. $cieno management is a ‘tale told by an idiot’.

  • Did anyone see this over at Mike Rinder’s blog today?

    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/ideal-orgs-some-inconvenient-truths/

    I just spoke to someone who is on course at LA Org – Day. He told me that LA Day and Foundation are no more and it is just one ‘LA Org’ manned by Sea Org now. This was told to the staff last night and the public today. My son is an ex staff member at LA Org so he was pretty shocked.

    The contraction is real.

    • Sid

      I wonder if this thing at the LA Org with Sea Org staff taking over will become a trend. As staffs are shrinking around the world it seems that Scientology can still get Sea Org people who are desperate for that room and board, especially from some of the not so fortunate countries. It could be that eventually all Orgs move in this direction. That way DM could keep his Orgs running and still brag about how many staff there are.

      • Espiando

        And he has a built-in excuse for this. He needs a Why for the failure of Idle Morgues in the world’s largest concentration of Scientologists. The Sea Org is supposed to put Ethics in on the planet. By ditching the staff and bringing in the Fake Navy, he now has his Why: the Idle Morgues weren’t succeeding due to out-ethics, so now the Sea Org will come in, put ethics in on the Morgues, and the flood of public will appear.

        And the sheeple will accept this unquestioningly.

        • Sid

          Now all they need is for some public to walk in the door and sit at those awkward video terminals.

      • Eclipse-girl

        Do you think there are enough SO to staff the 40 or Idle Morgues that exist now?
        And deal with Clearwater and Int?

        I see Davey sending senior people to staff Idle Morgues as a form of punishment. Could resources be so stretched that he can’t afford to put new people in The Hole?

        • Sid

          I’m not sure. It does seem like they are still able to get Sea Org from overseas more easily though. They could entice them with a $500 signing bonus and then once in the U.S. just take their passport and throw onto the EPF.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Do these foreign born SO have a good command of English?

            If you want to go to a US college from a foreign (non English speaking) nation you are required to pass the TOEFLS test.

            Would “the public” be turned off this?

            • Sid

              I’ve met a number of these foreign born SO members and though they mostly had strong accents they did speak English fluently. Not sure if that holds true for all of them. As far as the public goes there just don’t seem to be many of them left. Even a few years ago when I was in the LA Org it was pretty much deserted. One lonely guy on the purif and a few staff wandering about.

            • endoftheQ

              They could be speaking Martian for all it matters, they’re only going to be muttering amongst themselves. 😉

            • Sid

              Good point. It’s an acronymic hodgepodge that is totally not understandable outside the bubble.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Do those people know they should put their signing bonus in the bank and make it last as long as possible?

            • Sid

              I don’t think they actually get signing bonuses. I was just suggesting it to help out the church.

            • Eclipse-girl

              sneaky, aren’t you. Well I fall for all of those traps.

    • Bob

      Very real. The cracks get bigger in David MustDieAvichs master plan to bleed his clam followers dry.
      I think this will reverberate through out the THETA UNIVERSE.

      • Missionary Kid

        David MustDieAvichs is a new nickname for DM. I’ve collected it, and I’ll post it later.

        • joan nieman

          Ha ha!

    • scnethics

      Yes, and considering how hard orgs work to get their staff to continue on staff when their contracts are almost up, it’s mind-blowing that they would just let these people walk. This just does not ever happen. It’s a sign of the end of times for sure.

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        I tried to understand the breadth of this news, but as a never-in, the language is too scilon technical for me.

        The basis for my misunderstanding may be that I don’t get the strategic benefit tech of keeping day and foundation separate of what basically was just two different shifts. Kind of like calling a restaurant by one name during the day, and another for evenings and weekends.

        What the hell for?

        • ze moo

          So the different shifts can hold jobs in the wog world and eat.

        • Mark Foster

          Rhetorical question, Hillie: when does ANY of this shit make sense? 🙂 Slavery is Freedom, In Total Ignorance Lies Enlightenment!
          Seriously, the significance of this is is that your everyday, public parishioners who sign a staff contract for a minimum of 2&1/2 years, full-time(which is much more than 40 hours per week for shit/no pay) and fill the majority of the ¨posts¨(jobs) are suddenly-poof!-gone, and now the place is staffed by Sea Org members only. This is HIGHLY UNUSUAL…As a staff member, you are usually pressured to renew your contract months or even a year or more ahead of its expiration. Also, if you can´t survive on 20 to 50 dollars a week and need to work an outside job that causes an odd work schedule at the ¨org¨, you are pressured to ¨make it go right¨ so that you are on a ¨standard schedule per LRH¨ . So…to hear that staff members are simply allowed to ¨walk away¨ , given the pressure I saw exerted to recruit and keep staff, is shocking. If it´s true, that´s some seriously surreal shit. Not to mention that it´s , in Scientologese, ¨off-policy¨ to have a class V org staffed solely with Sea Org members. Others can probably add other insights, if they haven´t already…

          • Just Dee

            Thanks for the english conversion Mark. I was also a little confused. So no other staff besides sea org in LA?

            • Mark Foster

              If the story is true, that appears to be the case…

            • HillieOnTheBeach

              Thanks Mark. So then day and foundation were consolidated for the purpose of wiping out all staff and put ogers there instead?

              But for orgs still manned by “staff”, why is there a Hubbard approved entity separation between day and foundation? Like I said above, it’s like calling a restaurant two different things only because the staff changes.

              The only thing I can think of is Hubbard figured that a healthy rivalry would ensue. Once again, Hubbard fucks up.

            • Mark Foster

              Ze Moo is right(see below)…As far Lubricated Rancid Hellion´s ¨thought process¨ about this, I have no clue…

            • scnethics

              I’ve heard that the goal of having Day and Foundation schedules was that staff members would have lots of time for study and to have a life(!). No wonder they are getting rid of it!

          • April

            I’m asking you the same question that I just asked above since it looks like you have enough experience to know the answer. It seems like the LA org staff being let go en masse means that they were probably scapegoated for some imagined crime, otherwise the CO$ would have just transferred them to other orgs wouldn’t they? How often do non-sea org staff get transferred from one location to another?

            • Mark Foster

              I defer to the experts here for a more comprehensive answer, but I can say that I don´t know of non-sea Org staff being transferred without it being requested by the staff member and being connected to a family or job matter at the new location. Of course, the staff member would have to find a replacement for himself before leaving, assuming the transfer could happen according to ¨policy¨ and then be approved…

            • April

              Thank you for responding. You have an abundance of CO$ knowledge compared to myself.

            • Mark Foster

              Glad to help. 🙂

            • Eclipse-girl

              I would hazard a guess that Non – SO staff might get poached away if people in other orgs thought they were getting a good person. There would be lots of coercion and pressure put on the person on the org that lost the person would want something in return.

              But orgs are usually not close enough physically for that to be normal behavior. LA is different.

            • scnethics

              Letting someone out of their contract is NOT a punishment. If they were being scapegoated, there’s a full menu of ethics actions that would go with that. I think it’s got to a knee-jerk idea from the top.

            • April

              Thank you for your insight, scnethics. I wasn’t sure how to interpret staff being let go en masse.

          • Free Minds, Free Hearts

            And “Wicked is Good” (from the Maze Runner…)

          • Stacy

            Care to speculate? Any thoughts on why this might have been done?

          • scnethics

            @Mark and Hillie – yeah, like Mark says, it doesn’t make sense. Forget about the merging of Day and Foundation, because that is nothing compared to letting staff members leave. It is poorly done no matter how you slice it. This is NOT how you take over the world 🙂

      • April

        It seems like the LA org staff being let go en masse means that were scapegoated for some imagined crime, otherwise the CO$ would have just transferred them to other orgs wouldn’t they? How often do non-sea org staff get transferred from one location to another?

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          Yes it seems odd they were all told to go home. Isn’t there always a lot of pressure to get people to sign up for staff, and now suddenly they don’t need them? Also as has been pointed out on Mike’s blog, Sea Org are not very good at communicating with the real public so they will just drive people away even more. The whole thing is quite strange.

          • scnethics

            Enormous pressure is placed on staff members to re-sign their contact – pressure which begins long before the contract is up, long before the staff member begins thinking about what they might do with their time after their contract is up. It’s astonishing that they would let staff go in this way. It’s unprecedented.

        • scnethics

          We can only speculate. Something is up.

          Orgs have a certain amount of money to pay staff each week, an amount related to how much money is left over after paying other bills. That final amount, no matter how small is divided among the staff (unequally). The only conclusion I can reach from this move is that LA Org had zero money to pay staff.

          Another way to look at it is that for years now scientology has relentlessly recruited public for staff and SO. I think over the years scientology has managed to retain staff and SO at a far higher rate than public scientologists. After all, staff members can’t “leave quietly” the way so many public do. They are literally captive and when disillusion is detected in them, they get “handled”. Perhaps the ratio of active public to staff has finally reached a painful disproportion, which seems inevitable considering how few new people are joining. Therefore, it makes sense to flush ’em. Hey useless staff member, go get a real job, make some money, and come back and buy services or donate to us!

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        I find it hard to believe that they let anyone just walk. I didn’t read anything in the above statement of people being dismissed. That’s like winning The Lottery.

      • vistaril_LOL

        Berlin March 1945

        • Stacy

          Battle of Berlin. Hitler and a bunch of his lackeys commit suicide rather than face the Soviet troops. Sign of the end times, indeed.

    • DodoTheLaser

      The LA Org has gone Saint Hill Size. Everyone is fired.

    • Couch_Incident

      Hard to tell from Rinder’s post, but I wonder if the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification (WARN) requirements were triggered.

      “WARN provides protection to employees, their families, and communities by requiring employers to give affected employees and other state and local representatives notice 60 days in advance of a plant closing or mass layoff. Advance notice provides employees and their families some transition time to adjust to the prospective loss of employment, to seek and obtain alternative jobs and, if necessary, to enter skills training or retraining that will allow these employees to successfully compete in the job market.”
      http://www.edd.ca.gov/jobs_and_training/layoff_services_warn.htm

      • Somehow I really doubt that. Like seriously. Scientology staff don’t even have to be paid minimum wage. So there would be no adjustment period even necessary.

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      I’m wondering if it has to do with minimum wage. It is a contract position, so I wonder if that triggers the legal wage requirements. I have never heard of a staff member ever approaching a minimum wage level paycheck, except possibly with LA Org in the middle ’70s.

      Maybe there is an investigation/complaint going on, something about to hit them from the state.

      Letting all the staff go might get them out from under an enforcement action. Putting Sea Org members in lets them use the religious workers exemption (Ha. As long as that lasts….)

      • Scientology staff are also considered religious volunteers just like the Sea Org. If Miscavige was afraid of having to pay them minimum wage then all the class v orgs would be shut down, not just LA Org. No one working for Scientology makes minimum wage or above.

  • Silence of the Clams

    I don’t know…maybe scientology arbitration isn’t so bad after all. I wonder what it would be like……..

    • Missionary Kid

      Refresh. I like the shoop.

    • Observer

      I’m crying here …

    • Captain Howdy

      Outstanding.

    • April

      One of my most favorite movies.

      • scnethics

        Don’t run. We are your friends. 🙂

    • L.Ron Hubbard

      That’s my boy.

    • J. Swift

      Amazing image. In fact, this one of the images by which David Miscavige should be remembered. SotC, can you please post just Miscavige the Space Alien by itself for use in shoops? Your shoop is so good that it needs and deserves BPI (Broad Public Issue). The satire potential here is galactic!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    $cientology: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of footbullets and fury, signifying nothing.

  • Chee Chalker

    “David Miscavige… Making L Ron Hubbard look sane by comparison since 1986″. I re-read the ‘advertorial’ in The Atlantic after watching J. Swift’s latest video. The delusion and self aggrandizement is almost too much for words. If you didn’t know the Co$ was a cult before reading that, you would certainly know after. Wow…can you imagine any other legitimate religious leader promoting themselves that way? The fact that no one said ” um…..maybe this is a bit much” just proves how complete and total his control is…..I would last about 15 minutes in that environment and 14 of those minutes would have been spent in the bathroom laughing.

    • Missionary Kid
      • Chee Chalker

        Well thank you! I am honored to have contributed to the list. Long live the J&D!!

    • Anonymous

      It very hard to understand how anyone could have thought the language used in that advertorial would help the cause.

      As I mentioned yesterday, it speaks to the insular, self-absorbed nature of the internal culture at the church. They have no self-awareness whatsoever about how they are regarded outside and they do not care to develop that awareness.

      If you are not KSW according to the current fad (whatever that may be today) you are counter-intention and therefore beneath contempt.

      • Chee Chalker

        Spot in! It is absolutely amazing how clueless they are

      • Chee Chalker

        Or, I should say, ‘spot on’. Curse these sausage fingers!

  • Doug Parent

    In 2005 my mother, Elaine Parent was subjected to a Committee of Evidence hearing in San Diego Ca. The results were sent to CMO PAC and were refused and sent back for ANOTHER Comm Ev. She went throughout his process TWICE more before the Comm Ev held in San Diego eventually bent to the pressure from CMO and declared my 83 mother a “Suppressive Person” … (She left Scientology in 1983 after seeing too much)

    “Internal arbitration” is laughable in Scientology. CMO wanted my mother declared as an SP and thats what they eventually got. Corrupt and insane, I hope one day REAL justice is served and these jackals end up on the street.

    • Sid

      It just amazes me that in Scientology they would have this level of fear for them to go to all of that trouble to declare an 83 year old woman. Now as an SP if she walked by an Org they would all scatter like rats.

      • Observer

        It happens with Tory all the time. She can put an org into total lockdown within two minutes just by walking down the sidewalk.

        • Sid

          Beautiful. “We are taking over the world with our confront and shattering suppression,,,, oh hell there’s Tory! Run!”

          • vistaril_LOL

            The sight of KarenDC or MartyR would have Cruise or PetitePope wetting themselves in fear. A pathetic sick joke..

            • Eclipse-girl

              That is why Mighty Mouse can’t be deposed. I belive Marty and Mosey have a right to sit it on the deposition

            • Juicer77

              Mosey, yes. She is a party to the suit. Marty, no. Lawyer types please correct me if I’m incorrect.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Isn’t Marty considered a consultant to Jeffrey, Hyman and others?

              They are married. What about spouses supporting one another?

            • Juicer77

              Not a lawyer, but I think the parties named in the suit can object if an unnamed party is not wanted at the deposition. I think… May come down to a judge’s call if an objection arises.

              If Marty is not a named party, Mosey would have to stand on her own two feet in this one.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Marty would be near by. I wonder if he could be in the public areas where both parties have to walk through.

              Thanks for getting the correct information out there.

      • Doug Parent

        It’s not fear Sid, it’s a distorted paranoid schizophrenic world view through the lens of Hubbard. Without sadness regret or sorry, the *Church* of Scientology did to my family what they have done to thousands and thousands of other families, and that is intentionally willfully and knowingly drive a wedge (alloy the affinity, reality and communication) between family members. A family is a distinct separate and autonomous group to an extent, and for reasons of survival, has been a pretty successful self-perpetuating unit especially in older societies. The organization that calls itself the Church of Scientology has in it’s internal *religious scriptures” rigid guidelines that usurps an individuals natural power of choice and judgement especially where it involves relationships whether personal or otherwise. This is why Scientology is and has been called a dangerous cult. It poses a very real danger to individuals and particularly families. It should have a black box warning from the surgeon general just as you would find on a pack of cigarettes. Instead of supporting the basic building block of society, Scientology poses a significant danger. They do the exact opposite of what they promote. “We are the most ethical beings on the planet” translates into a totally corrupt and evil outcome. The Garcias have a leg to stand on for sure.

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    Babbitt is absolutely correct that the HCO Policy Letter “is, in fact, exquisite proof of the absence of arbitration rules and is understandably never mentioned in the [Garcias’] Arbitration Agreement.” Moreover, how odd, and ridiculous, that the document submitted by the church to prove the church has internal rules and procedures governing “binding arbitration,” fails to even once use the words “arbitrate” or “arbitration.” Also, since when does a lawyer submit a 51 year old document to prove the meaning of terms in a contract when the contract fails to incorporate that document, even by reference? I suggest Pope study the “parole evidence rule,” (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parol_evidence_rule) or have a first year law student explain it to him. I think Miscavige must be writing these briefs, there is no other explanation for such bad lawyering.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    With the contraction now of the LA Day and Foundation into one org and Dildo Dave’s footbullet attempt to weasel Comm Ev injustice into court in Florida, the collapse accelerates.
    It’s worth remembering that the rotting trunk of this diseased tree has been heading for a felling and a fall for decades.
    Hubbard went from squire of the manor in his Georgian mansion to a rusty cattle-ferry shuttling from pillar to post like some cursed Odysseus (a wily but not courageous version, mind) and thence, unkempt and crazy, to hiding in a tinker’s caravan.
    Miscavige has gone from his Macbeth-like seizing of power, a temporary swelling of the rank(s) and his “victory” over the IRS to the Lisa McPherson case, Anonymous and the Internet, his blue asbestos albatross unfueled, and the lawyers circling.

    $cientology:The Cult That Eat Itself
    http://www.gifbin.com/t/982922

  • Sejanus

    $cientology. Justice?…you mean Just Us.

    • joan nieman

      That’s it.

  • Sid

    Did anyone ever find out about Jon Atack’s statement regarding the $8 Billion dollars the church supposedly has?

    • vistaril_LOL

      anyone? This sounds interesting……follow the $$$$$$

      • Eclipse-girl

        I would suspect that Jon exaggerated or included “off shore accounts” in his estimate. I really trust what Jeff Augustine has been doing.

        • Mark Foster

          No disrespect to Jeff´s painstakingly meticulous work, but Jon has been on this beat for,
          what, 30-plus years? He is also very thorough and meticulous, so before we conclude or assume Jon has made an error, let´s query it, shall we(said whilst holding up one pinkie finger and raising one eyebrow)?

          • Eclipse-girl

            I don’t think any one thinks there is any disrespect going on the discussion about this topic.
            It is something that makes us curious.

            I agree that Jon had been on track for 30 + years, but I wasn’t sure he was following the money.
            Jeff is doing the best he can with legal documents / IRS documents that are open to the public.

            At one point, Ron kept shoe boxes full of cash, and had other boxes of gems and precious metal. We have not idea what happened to that material after his death. I assume Davey has a similar habit of wanting to keep a certain amount of fairly liquid assets close to him.

            Do I think Davey would lie on the legal documents? YES
            He would have to have it done in a way so that he could throw someone else under the bus.

            • Mark Foster

              good points!

  • Elendira

    Babbitt is quickly gaining favor with me. His questions about how “fair and just” this arbitration system can be since one the rungs on the appeal system has been dead and gone for 30 years, i.e. inaccessible or nonexistent.

    Which is an important fact, because Hubbard’s rules can never be changed so the arbitration rules are frozen just like the rest of the cult, unless the Scientologist Lawyers are actually able to reach the Hubbard on Target Two and have him report in, this might be the evidence that breaks the case.

    Why in the World would, Scientologists fight to get this on the record is beyond me.

  • Just Dee

    Reading Ted Babbitt’s response and I am a little confused with part of #2. Babbitt says…..

    “Plaintiffs attempted to place this letter and affidavits concerning it at the time the Defendants responded
    to this Court’s Order of October 18,2013 [D.E#89] and Defendants successfully objected and moved to strike that evidence which resulted in this Court’s Order [D.E.#98] of November 13,2013,striking the very same information.
    This Court already ruled at the hearing that this letter was inadmissible at a nonevidentary hearing.

    Is Mr. Babbitt saying he tried to submit the exact same evidence but scientology objected? Now scientology wants to submit the same evidence they originally objected to?

    If I am reading this correctly, and I believe I am – Wow. I am speechless AGAIN!

    • PickAnotherID

      You read it correctly. That’s exactly what’s going on.

    • pronoia

      Smells of desperation, doesn’t it? I can’t wait to read the affidavits which will read much like many of the comments left here today which will be submitted by the Garcias. It must be a rare occurrence in law when the other side does your work for you so effectively.

    • I wonder if this is because all of the dimwitted Scientology lawyers on the various defense cases against the syndicate are not talking with each other.

      Maybe one dimwit lawyer moved to have the document struck, then another dimwit lawyer unaware of that submitted the same document. Would not surprise me.

      • and it’s all the fault of the dilettante lawyers, Captain David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige is never wrong. Well, “never” is a big word…

  • trouble for Scientology? Oh noes! That’s HORRIBLE! Not trouble for Scientology! We must have emergency meetings and get emergency donations to fight against the psychs that are trying to stop our fight against drugging children! GIVE! GIVE! DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!

  • Scientology Pope vs. Wally Pope caption contest:
    (refresh)

    • flyonthewall

      SP – “Go ahead and struggle, I like a challenge!”
      WP – ” Mommy! Mommy! The bad man is trying to touch me in my special place!”

      • Sid

        His ‘special place’ is his wallet.

    • Observer

      DM: There can be only one, and I am IT, you CICS! Stupid wog Catholic one doesn’t count.

      WP: Ow! It’s just a family name! It doesn’t mean anything! Get off me! Ow! Ow!

    • Espiando

      DM: “Tell me where it’s going! Tell me where it’s going!”

      WP: “Up in the ass! Up in the ass!”

      For those who don’t get the reference, Hearsay or YouTube “Pornosangen”.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      DM: C’mere, bitch

      WP: Margaret, this counts as billable hours… you heard me? Billable hours!

    • Captain Howdy

      Anti-Pope Cobholio Minimus: “The power of my cooper rod compels you!”

      Wanker Poop Man: “Whatever. As long as the check clears, I’m queer”

    • Jimmy3

      DM: “Sometimes I wish he were more like Roger Goodell”??? You like the NFL, you ser fac’y bastard?? I’ll give you some NFL!!!

      WP: Haalp me, Ginger Hammer!!! Haaaaalp

  • Observer

    According to Ron, the Garcias are already guilty of a high crime. What would be the point of arbitration or a Comm Ev when the god of Scientology has already damned them?

    Bringing civil suit against any Scientology organization or Scientodogist,
    including the nonpayment of bills or failure to refund, without first
    calling the matter to the attention of the International Justice Chief
    and receiving a reply.

    http://gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/ise-high-crimes.html

  • Sid

    I’m hoping my local Org will start carrying Pope-on-a-Rope (refresh).

  • The Aristocrats! I suddenly started getting upvotes from a month-old Kasey Kasem Disqus thread, so I checked the news. The Norway burial is off, feud continues.

    • I had a friend whose mother passed away, but he couldn’t get her buried because his sister had “questions” about her death and how her money was used to support her. The county coroner finally stepped in and ordered the burial, much to the relief of my friend. I’m sure things like this happen all the time, we just hear about it when it involves a celebrity.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I kind of wished Jean had had her way and been able to inter him in Norway.

      I think Jean is a bit off, but having a sci-lon daughter in law may be enough to make anyone nuts.

  • Well, at least this doesn’t sound like the order of a judge who has made his decision… While I’m always keen on the idea that captain David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige is doing it wrong, I’m to take this order as a good omen at the very least.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    $cientology justice is like civil war.

    The 4-day list is down to 203 ads 🙂 Well done, Red Xers !
    It’s about 10 minutes flagging here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml
    or today’s list here:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2486935

    Comm Ev images here

  • sizzle8

    Comm Evs can be a kind of gray area. I’ve seen them used for disputes between public, not just disciplinary matters.
    There are several policies that could be interpreted in that way, i.e. that Comm Evs could be used in non-punishment situations.
    Back in the early 1980’s, the post of International Justice Chief was created to review all Comm Ev’s and their findings and recommendations.

    • grundoon

      Chuck Beatty used to share an office with the International Justice Chief. I bet he knows what the IJC actually does, if anything.

      • Free Minds, Free Hearts

        Chuck has a good long comment comment below.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      “Comm Evs can be a kind of gray area. I’ve seen them used for disputes between public, not just disciplinary matters.”

      Let me guess, the biggest donor won their case.

      This reminds me of something fairly early in Black Rob’s Thetan In My Mirror thread.

      Scilon woman was a court approved mediator. When she was handed a civil court matter involving two opposing scientologists, she reported to… you guessed it. The cos.

      • aquaclara

        That’s probably a good example for Babbitt to know about, if we can find it again.

  • Xique

    I was subjected to a Committee of Evidence , aka a comm-ev a long long time ago. It was due to the fact that I’d blown from post and from staff, at least until that reeled me back in. I was put before who I thought were bigs wigs, “the committee” (I was so naive) and was basically tried for my crime. Not sure in the end what my punishment was but I think it was essentially to get back out on the street and get more “Bodies in the Shop”. I had to “body route” for hours on end as embarrassing as that is to admit. Doing this sort of thing was punishment enough. I was also looked upon by the rest of staff as a degraded being, treasonous and so forth. I was attempting to save myself right from the start by running, but somehow I got caught in their web. Horrible to think about for I was just a kid then.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Xique how old were you when you were punished this way? Just a kid, that is all wrong.

      • Xique

        22 I think , a young and naive 22 yr old.

        • aquaclara

          How awful. I’m swearing at them right now, with the well-known word salad of curses being hurled via my computer, as my dog just looks at me strangely. Because there are no other words.
          Glad you’re out now.

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          I am so sorry Xique and so glad you are out!

    • lucille austero

      Glad you are out, Xique!

    • Sid

      So far I haven’t heard of one person being found innocent at a CommEv.

      • Xique

        Exactly

  • Xique

    The comm ev was about punishment in my case and nothing to do with money or a refund.this much I do remember.

  • cdub

    So much of the Crutch of Scientology is a sham. What’s Narconon? The Communication Course, Training Routines plus vitamins and sauna. A Committee of Evidence? a fraudulent justice system for offenders. Asking for money back is a crime so you must get a Comm Ev! Let’s see the attorney explain that.

  • Kim O’Brien

    Home sick today and queued up HULU …and up popped Scientology – the Ex Files . !!! 🙂

    http://www.hulu.com/watch/634397

    • stillgrace2

      Feel better soon!
      For those of us who don’t have hulu-plus- there’s a free trial available and this film is available on you-tube (in pieces).

      • Captain Howdy

        I just checked YT and it says 45 min. which is the same RT as the Hulu one

        • stillgrace2

          I don’t see a 45 minute version. (?) I see it in 5 parts @ ~9 minutes each. You must be getting special treatment due to your superior trolling skills.

          • Mark Foster

            We´ll see if Disqus will let me post this link…

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwqOMWQ41BU

            • stillgrace2

              Thank you, Mark. I eventually was able to see it in one piece by employing a Google search. Interesting. I watched it. Witnessing the sleazoid-ness and total false-ness and lying-ness of Tommy Davis has left me sick to my stomach (once again).

            • Observer

              It’s good to know that in this rapidly changing world there is one thing that never does, even if it’s only Tommy Davis and/or your reaction thereto.

            • Jimmy3

              When I started looking into all this nonsense, the John Sweeney videos were the very first videos I watched on YouTube. I didn’t know any of the characters at that point, but there was lots of shouting and stalking and it was all very exciting. For a while, as I was beginning to piece it all together (I still am), my own little nickname for Tommy Davis was the “The Agent”. Because of how he would suddenly appear in a nice suit and sunglasses wherever Sweeney and crew were filming. It was as if he’d just get his Matrix on and take over some random body near their location. Hello, Mr. Sweeney. I still get a kick out of Agent Davis.

  • Anonymous

    “Judge Whittemore, in a brief order, decided to allow in the document. But in that order, he included a very
    interesting caveat. Scientology has ten days to provide evidence for its assertion that “the procedures and rules governing a Committee of Evidence apply in arbitration proceedings.”

    One final commentary on the above: I’m not so sure this is a good thing. Because of Scientology’s practice of waging a war of attrition in litigation, they are constantly arguing seemingly meaningless or contradictory points to wear down the opposition and drive up the cost of the fight.

    They also frequently set traps by luring the opponent into a long contest about a particular issue, then later appeal that very issue as an irrelevant or incorrect component of a finding with which they disagree.

    Babbitt does not need my advice, but I’ll offer it anyway: Be careful about arguing any matters which if ruled against them, the church will later appeal as a disallowed intrusion by the state into a religious dispute.

    I have not read everything about this case, but I see several lines of argument coming from the church which seem to be in conflict with each other. Depending on how the court rules, one or more of those conflicting arguments will almost certainly form the basis of a later appeal.

    Church leadership is not interested in justice, fairness or the rule of law. They are interested in getting their own way…period.

    • Chee Chalker

      I agree with your statements about the co$ shenanigans in legal matters. Unfortunately it is SOP for them. In this instance I believe the judge is erring on the side of caution by agreeing to hear their argument. If he had refused, they may have appealed the issue, that is, the fact that the judge refused to allow “evidence” (haha) which may be favorable to them is an appealable issue. I understand where you are.coming from, the sad fact is that they will appeal every issue they can. At least this way, the findings of the trier of fact, ie the trial judge, are generally not appealable. Generally only errors of law are appealable. I think its better to allow these issues to be heard (and shot down) at this level, so that there are no appealable issues down the line.
      Failure to admit evidence could be an appealable issue, whereas allowing the defendants try to explain why this LRH policy is relevant is less of a risk (IMO).

      • Anonymous

        You may be right. It is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. One thing that is predictable is that Scientology will make self-serving arguments that will be based on little more than whatever nonsense they think will fly…there is no honor within the leadership…everything is based on temporal expediency.

        • endoftheQ

          What’s the difference between Xenu and justice? Xenu actually exists. 😉

    • Illinoisian

      “Church leadership is not interested in justice, fairness or the rule of
      law. They are interested in getting their own way…period.”
      Per the above, I have often wondered (because I have *no* education in law) if our legal system has sufficient (or any) safeguards to deal with an entity that *never* comes to the process “in good faith.” Does our legal system assume that, for the most part, litigants want a solution? One that is favorable to their own side, of course, but a solution, a decision, some sort of outcome? Are judges at all prepared for an entity that is a kind of ‘legal sociopath’ — with no moral compass, no real respect for the legal process (of the world outside of Co$), and which sees the legal process as a way of making the ‘good faith’ of others (their willingness to enter the legal process and accept its rules) into a weakness that can be exploited?

      • Anonymous

        Let me Google that for you:

        http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vexatious+litigant

        Not meant as an insult, but just as an indication of the absolutely huge volume of writing about this topic. It is one of the conundrums of modern legal systems…

        • Illinoisian

          Not insulted. And I’ve heard the term. I’m just wondering if most vexatious litigation is an occasional usage of the system by someone who is pissed off at a particular person or corporation, but who, in most instances, would be using the system with reasonable “good faith” and be desirous of a speedy outcome. I would imagine that most judges would be alert to signs that someone has a grudge and wants to use the legal system to get payback; is willing to prolong the process just to enjoy making an enemy sweat, even if they are losing money in doing so. I’m betting that most judges have seen this and recognize it.

          I’m thinking about Co$’s view that everything in the wog world is corrupt, but that the game must be played in a way that conceals the contempt and uses the rules of the system not just against the opponent, but against the intentions of the system itself. (Saving the planet, ends justify the means, we are the only ones who can help, blah, blah, blah.) I think this is a different animal and it goes beyond what is normally meant by the term “vexatious litigant.”

          Perhaps this is what I mean: someone who ‘uses’ a system to gain an advantage can still basically respect the system even while making it into a tool for underhanded purposes. There is a kind of recognition that the strength and purpose of the system is what makes it effective and the challenge is to warp it and use it. To enter in with an attitude of contempt . . . that superior perspective that sees the ‘wog’ world as ineffectual. I just hope that judges can see through it.

          (Didn’t mean to write such a long post.)

          • Anonymous

            There are also anti-SLAPP statutes in many states which are designed to even the odds for defendants who are the targets of much larger plaintiffs who attempt to overwhelm the defendant with financial and legal resources which the defendant does not have.

            As reported here and following a long term pattern of dubious conduct, the church has turned this on it’s ear in the case of Mosey Rathbun by actually filing an anti-SLAPP complaint against a lone female who objected to the church funded program of harassment and terror to which she was subjected and for which she filed suit to gain relief.

            The church calls it’s well financed program of terrorizing the lone female non-Scientologist family member of one of it’s critics “free speech” in apparent defiance of the intent of the Texas anti-SLAPP statute.

            There is no honor among the senior leadership of Scientology…as evidenced by their actual, observable conduct and the shameful manner in which they attempt to frame that conduct.

  • Truthiwant

    This link won’t be up for much longer.

    Read the description for this auction item sold last week. It’s very funny.

    http://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/-1-c-0D65647C50?utm_source=invuk_kwalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=keywordalertlive&utm_term=2

    • Observer

      Screenshot *refresh*

      • Mark

        3″ diameter? That’s TINY! Must be one Shortarse donated to the production—or else a second-hand ‘Thunderbirds’ prop.

      • Unvaluable indeed 😉

      • ze moo

        An insignificant prop from an insignificant movie. Pawn Stars would laugh……

  • N. Graham
  • Suppressive Tomato

    All you really need to know about Scientology’s internal “justice”, is revealed in “Introduction To Scientology Ethics”, The Ethics Codes, Petition:

    “13. Petitions may not demand Committees of Evidence or punishment for executives but may only state what has happened and request the matter be righted.”

    There is no justice without equal protection. If a junior cannot seek to redress the actions of a senior, or a public cannot seek the same from “executives”, there is an inherent bias and therefore no justice is possible.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    I don’t think anyone has posted a link to this hilarious OT article in vice.com – http://www.vice.com/read/fifty-years-on-and-scientology-still-hasnt-cracked-the-uk-920. Only thing missing is he doesn’t talk about the abuses.

    • aquaclara

      What a great read….thanks for posting.

    • lucille austero

      Excellent article. Much lulz. And then just sad. For $cilons.

    • stillgrace2

      … he doesn’t mention the evil overlord miscavige either.

    • Tony Ortega

      Wow, that article is ignorant. I suppose we’re going to see more of this thing in the coming days. After decades of brave work by defectors who risked Fair Game to expose the abuses of Scientology, and the critics who had their homes raided for simply posting information about the church, and the journalists, like Paulette Cooper and Richard Behar who sat through weeks of depositions and other dirty tricks aimed to defend them — and then more recent work by Anonymous, now, Scientology is in severe decline and facing crises around the world, and rather than point out what epic battles have been fought in the UK, this guy comes along and says Scientology never really caught on there. Like it just didn’t market itself well or something. He even feels bad for them.

      Sigh. I guess I’ll have to write something and point out what happened in 1968. And bring up Justice Latey. And the recent battle over marriage. And the IAS happening in a couple of weeks.

      Oh brother.

      • ze moo

        Nick Hilton didn’t bother to look at the backstory. The clampire did well enough to afford St ElseWhere Hill and all the mOrgs and missions in the UK. Lazy….

        • Just Dee

          He also didn’t mention this website, Narconon, all the people who have left & are brave enough to speak out, as well as the numerous books published.

          • endoftheQ

            I’m afraid it’s just not on the UK radar, the abuses are ancient history. I believe Narconon did have a property in St. Leonard’s at one time, but I don’t think it ever actually got used, at least not officially. So, in effect, there’s never been a Narconon facility in the UK, I think the nearest one is probably in The Netherlands. It’s just not happening here.

        • endoftheQ

          You could pick such properties up for a song, back in the day, what with a 98% tax rate, death duties, etc. people were practically giving them away, just to offload the liability of having them. In France, owners just demolished them instead!

      • scnethics

        As a journalist (who also has endured dirty tricks and harassment), you should call these lame-asses out like you do, and I’m glad you do. As an ex-scientologist, I read articles with two things in mind:
        1. Might it make a cult member think?
        2. Will it repel readers from scientology?
        So by my simpler standard, not a bad article 🙂

      • endoftheQ

        I’m afraid that’s the problem, Tony, it’s back in 1968, which is ancient history to a lot of people, something that happened before they were born. It’s like referring to WWII every time you mention Germany. $cientology really has never caught on in the UK, the TM movement and Hare Krishna’s honestly have a larger presence and much higher profiles and that isn’t saying much. I’ve said before, we also get $cientology-Lite here in the UK, we don’t have the endless systematic abuses that happen elsewhere, nor the constant regging. For example, I was never asked to donate in regard to the i$teal Morgue in Queen Victoria Street, in fact, I’ve always been under the impression that IAS paid for it outright. The Aetherius Society can probably claim a larger membership than $cientology here, they can certainly lay claim to a better and earlier pedigree. 😉

  • anoni81b4u

    As to the references made on this message boards regarding “kangaroo courts” as applied to internal scientology arbitration, I would like to clear something up. I know a kangaroo, and he is a fine animal, and he told me his kind don’t like being mentioned when discussions about scientology courts happen. He also reminded me that all scientologist are human, and that kangaroos are way too smart to join this silly cult. I had to admit, he was correct.

    • Captain Howdy

      Speaking of animals, has anybody seen our favorite ungulate?

      • stillgrace2

        Haven’t seen Mooser in awhile.

        • Captain Howdy

          Maybe he’s in a rut.

          • Observer

            I see what you did there.

          • *rim shot*

          • joan nieman

            Rutting season is just over. The hunters are out looking for wild meat.and it could be quite perilous for four-legged creatures. Perhaps Mooser is in hiding.

          • Sherbet

            That pun is worthy of the aforementioned Mooser.

      • Jimmy3

        Hold on. I will attempt to summon him:

        http://youtu.be/o_qBiaGGh2Y

        • Captain Howdy

          Poor guy. Some psycho probably shot his Ma.

          • Jimmy3

            Nah. I’m not fluent in moose, but I manage… The little guy is talking about how pissed his mom is going to be when he tells that her daddy forgot to pick him up from antler school again. I’m assuming some strong moose-weed was involved here. Bullwinkle, they call it.

  • By the way, did you know that the crime syndicate is opposed to human slavery? I shit you not, they really are, get a good look at their Freedumb Magazine web page where they are totally against enslaving people.

    Ha! I know! Who knew?

    • Observer

      Of course they are. They’re against pretty much everything they do.

      • Missionary Kid

        In that aspect, we join them. 😉

  • nottrue

    A peek at scientology 40yrs ago………..http://youtu.be/LdPbcox616E

    • DeElizabethan

      Really neat guy and very neat story. Thank you.

    • flyonthewall

      The recruitment cycle story and how he got the panic attack and had to bolt from the PAC basement (I assume it was PAC) was awesome. So glad we are watching him like this instead of on one of Karen’s videos, no offense to Karen or her guests but you know what I mean. This one is going out to you funny glasses man – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxG0VLVXinc

    • Qbird

      Here’s this guy, the leader, the founder, the master of the
      tech, speaking on tape to his adherents LRH hisself…

      and he’s supposed to be THE Homo Novis, a New Man,

      a super human!

      “…and he sounds like he’s sick.”

      Yeah that ol’ Lurch
      was sick all right.

  • Jgg2012

    I think the judge sees that this a scam started by Hubbard, who allowed no dissent, which cannot adapt to new rules or knowledge. Its stuck with “smoking is good for you” and “gays are sociopaths” as its tenets.
    He thus knows that the arbitration thing is a hoax. My favorite arbitration story was the SP he had a grievance, and was told to fill out forms that were located in the local org so he could arbitrate them–but, as an SP, he wasn’t allowed to enter the local org to get them.

  • DeElizabethan

    This news sounds very favorable to me. Good luck and we support you Garcia.

  • aquaclara

    Off topic: Katie Holmes Buys Mansion In Calabasas, Moves Suri Back To The West Coast.

    This was in August, apparently, but I missed it. Perhaps others here did, too.

    http://www.trulia.com/luxe/2014/08/22/katie-holmes-buys-house/?ecampaign=con_eyecandy&eurl=http%3A%2Fwww.trulia.com%2Fluxe%2F2014%2F08%2F22%2Fkatie-holmes-buys-house%2F

    Nice house.

    • Mark Foster

      Also off-topic: I missed this tidbit back in June of this year:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwUIqMu10zQ

    • Juicer77

      Saw that when it came out. Possibly she has work projects that make a west coast residence more convenient. It will be nice for Suri to see her dad more often (if he can find the time – ha). I’m glad she is no longer “exiled” (for reasons legal or otherwise).

      • aquaclara

        Eh, I want Media Lush’s take on this.

        Here’s my thinking. If she had filed for divorce in California, the culties would have been after her very aggressively, and in a way that makes it harder to get away from them. Also, and perhaps more important, as CA is a community property state, both TC AND his favorite church leader would have been panicked over the money. And therefore would have fought her tooth and nail for custody.

        She made it about escaping with her daughter, not the money. Maybe that’s the only way she was able to get away.

        Just my opinion.

        • Juicer77

          You could be right. She also made him an offer he couldn’t refuse – silence and a decent settlement vs. a messy and very public court case. I doubt if money is why DM loves his “buddy” so much. DM’s got a billion in his pocket. TC is just another Hollywood prop, and his value is diminishing.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I think Katie and her father planned this very well. There were reason for moving to NY and once she established residency there, she filed for divorce and custody.

          As we have all said, many times, Katie did this to protect Suri.
          There were rumors that she was in contact with Nicole and one has to assume that Nicole advised her to sue for custody.

      • pronoia

        And Suri might actually, like any normal little girl would, love her Dad and want to see him without flying thousands of miles. And if he & his relatives are behaving themselves re the scientology, it makes sense to live within driving distance. Not that I know anything about Katie Holmes, but she does not strike me as the vengeful type and would want what is best for her daughter. Which is the same as any other child. Two active parents.

    • BosonStark

      Just right for 2 people and plenty of shoes.

  • Jgg2012

    “Prove to us that your criminal rules of procedure govern divorce court” In Scientology, you get divorced if Davey tells you to. You stay married (even if you don’t want to) if Davey says so. There is no hearing.

    • Sid

      Except that Davey would never order anyone to stay married. He’s all about the breakup.

      • Jgg2012

        What about his “marriage” to Shelly?

        • Sid

          Yeah. See where that went. Married in name to keep his Pope-ishness intact but they don’t seem to be together.

          • Observer

            But he and his “communicator” certainly are.

  • Caught In the Snow

    I decided to look around at the way attorneys talk about arbitration amongst themselves. I found an interesting
    article in the Dispute Resolution Journal dated Feb. 2003 called “Drafting Arbitration Clauses: Avoiding the Seven Deadly Sins”. One of those is ‘Overreaching’. Below is an excerpt from the article, which interestingly enough discusses an arbitration clause that Hooters used to require. You’ll see right away that the Co$ bogus arbitration policy shouldn’t survive judicial scrutiny, religious protestations or not. At least I sure hope not, though we’ve all seen justice perverted when dealing with the cult, especially when they pull the religion card.

    ********************************

    “Overreaching

    Sometimes the drafter of an arbitration clause cannot resist the temptation to tilt the arbitration process
    in favor of his or her client. This is the sin of overreaching. Where this sometimes comes up in a painfully obvious way is in contracts of adhesion. A notorious example is the clause the Hooters chain of restaurants used in employment agreements. Some of the overreaching elements in that agreement were listed by the 4th Circuit:

    • The employee and Hooters each were to select an arbitrator, and the two so selected were to pick the third arbitrator, but all three had to be chosen from a list created by Hooters, which had exclusive and unrestricted control over who was on the list.

    • Nothing in the arbitration clause or the Hooters’ rules required the arbitrators to be impartial or independent of Hooters.

    • The employee was required to file with her claim a list of all fact witnesses, specifying the facts known to each, but Hooters was not required to file any notice of its defenses.

    • Hooters was permitted to move for summary disposition, but the employee was not.

    • Hooters could amend its position, but the employee could not.

    • Hooters could record the hearing, but the employee could not.

    • Hooters could modify the arbitration rules at will and without notice to the employee.

    • Hooters, but not the employee, had the option to cancel the agreement to arbitrate.

    One eminent witness stated before the trial court, ‘This is without a doubt the most unfair arbitration pro-
    vision I have ever encountered.’

    The 4th Circuit concluded that the appropriate remedy for such a one-sided clause was not to enforce it.

    The court stated:

    ‘The parties agreed to submit their claims to arbitration—a system whereby disputes are fairly resolved by an
    impartial third party. Hooters by contract took on the obligation of establishing such a system. By creating a sham system unworthy of the name of arbitration, Hooters completely failed in performing its contractual duty … [and] also violate[d] the contractual obligation of good faith …. Hooters’ …performance under the contract was so egregious that the result was hardly recognizable as arbitration at all.The temptation to overreach in drafting the arbitration clause should be strongly resisted. It is not only wrong, but it is also counterproductive.’

    https://www.adr.org/aaa/ShowPDF?doc=ADRSTG_003898

    • Missionary Kid

      Damn. Co$ is definitely worse than Hooters.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    All work and no pay makes the SeaBorg a dulled boy.
    Give Daily Mismanage a little dose of apoplexy.
    Wipe out his ads.

    Additions and updates – Hyder and Rip have a comprehensive list here 10 minutes old:
    http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2487053
    There’s a 10-minute stroll here – the 4-day list:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    Easter Island Ideal Org couldn’t pay it’s utilities bills – it’s obvious:

    • aegerprimo

      Whew! Red Xing DONE for the day.

  • Jimmy3

    CDC confirms a case of Ebola in Texas. Please do not panic: COB RTC is safe. He has never been to Texas.

    • aquaclara

      You are probably the only one who could make a joke about this. Yes, of course I am laughing.
      But cringing all at the same time.

      • Sherbet

        Laughing, laughing. Probably shouldn’t be, but I am.

        • Observer

          Jimmy’s got a way of doing that to a person

      • Jimmy3

        Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you have Ebola. In that case, laughter will definitely not help you.

        • Sherbet

          “Laughter is the best medicine” is (was?) a feature of Reader’s Digest — you know, the publication lrh credited with providing much of his scientificky research.

          • Jimmy3

            I love Reader’s Digest. It’s easy, light reading. I read the jokes section, laugh. Read the workplace jokes section, laugh. Read the military jokes section, laugh patriotically. I do the vocabulary quiz, ace it, then glance at the quotes page for enlightenment. Then I set the thing on fire in case it carries Ebola or similar viruses.

            They complained at first when I did this in the waiting room at my doctor’s office, but I said to them, “This is a doctor’s office. Do you support diseases here?” … “I didn’t think so.”

            They admitted that I had a great point, but we eventually came to a mutual, court-sponsored agreement that it’d be best for all if I found a new doctor. So yeah, Reader’s Digest is great.

            • Sherbet

              Aw, it hasn’t been the same since they discontinued the “I am Joe’s…(heart, spleen, ears, knees)” series. I guess they ran out of Joe’s body parts.

            • Couch_Incident

              We had to read those in high school. We used to joke about “I am Joe’s left nut.”

            • Sherbet

              I think I missed that issue. 😉

            • Stacy

              Lol. How exactly do you laugh patriotically?

            • Jimmy3

              If you have to ask, you might be a terrist.

          • grundoon

            Ron the Poet was reading Reader’s Digest one day when he felt a song coming on…

            Laugh a little – By L Ron Hubbard

            When the world seems down on you
            And grey clouds hide the sun
            When tears and rain commingle
            And life’s no longer fun

            Laugh a little
            Laugh a little
            Ha ha, Ha ha
            Ha ha, Ha ha

            When all the world around you
            Is deep enmeshed in frowns
            When mother, sister, aunt and wife
            All seem to have the downs

            Laugh a little
            Laugh a little
            Ha ha, Ha ha
            Ha ha, Ha ha

            No need to weep or rant or rave
            Or grind your teeth or shout
            For if you laugh why then you’ll soon
            Find something to laugh about

            Ha ha ha ha
            Ha ha ha ha . . .

            • Sherbet

              That ranks right up there with, um, some great concerto.

            • Observer

              I have no wish to create a huge drama and did not intend to comment on it further, but because i respect you I will explain. This is not about the correctness of what Q is saying, this is about the fact that Q appears to be a complete impostor and, while her conversation and style of writing bear no resemblance to that of any British person or former Scientologist I have ever come across, both are dead ringers for an infamous former poster. That resemblance was reinforced significantly by her responses to both Bury and me yesterday. If you think I’m paranoid, pay attention to her responses when asked about her time in Scientology or still Saint Hill.

              You know that I am not a witch hunter. I assure you I did not post that lightly, and I have no intention of engaging her in any fashion from this point on.

      • Eclipse-girl

        It is OK. On NPR, they state that while the person traveled they appeared healthy and were not shedding virus. It is the people who he has been in contact with in the US who will be watched for 21 dats.

        • Juicer77

          It helps to understand this. As someone old enough to remember the first AIDS outbreaks, everyone take a deep breath and learn about this disease before freaking out. From the CDC site: http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/index.html
          “When an infection does occur in humans, the virus can be spread in several ways to others. Ebola is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes) with
          blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, feces, vomit, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola
          objects (like needles and syringes) that have been contaminated with the virus
          infected animals
          Ebola is not spread through the air or by water, or in general, food. However, in Africa, Ebola may be spread as a result of handling bushmeat (wild animals hunted for food) and contact with infected bats.”

          • Eclipse-girl

            I know and I agree.

            Ebola is at one point a disease of poverty.
            Clean water, and soap do a lot in containing this virus

            The man who became sick several days after traveling from Liberia is probably getting much better treatment than he would have in Liberia.

            When the Daily Mail was running articles about Ebola, there was so much fear mongering. It got to me. There were only a few commenters who were trying to quell the panic that the DM was stirring up

            • Jimmy3

              And sadly, speaking of fear-mongering, the denial that Ebola even exists has helped fuel it. There is a belief amongst many West Africans that it is all some sort of scam being run by their governments and outsiders. Some have even broken in to hospitals to kidnap Ebola victims, truly believing they’re saving them from some sinister plot. A quick google search turns up way too many reports of this happening.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I am only superficially aware of these misguided beliefs.
              I have heard about these actions, and in essence how the hospital break ins are only going to make it worse.

              This is dealt with by education, understanding the cultural beliefs and explaining why washing of the bodies, and a burial do not help the community. This effort has to be done by those the communities trust.

              There have also been people who preyed on the worried populace by claiming to have cures, when they did not.

          • Jimmy3

            This is why I’m able to joke about it. If it were airborne, I’d be fully covered in Saran wrap, clutching my crossbow, just waiting for someone to come near my basement corner. I’ll bolt you up, fool, if you so much as sniffle near my corner-home.

          • aegerprimo

            Good post Juicer.

    • PRenaud

      Wouldn’t that be nice, knowing that he’ll be back in another life he could redeem himself for humanity and surrender his body to our medical experts so they could test the anti-virus.

    • Ebola is just a state of mind.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        HAVE YOU RAPED A BABY?????????????

  • Observer

    I was looking for pics of the midget with his mistress, and for some reason this came up. WARNING: get a hanky.

    http://www.breakingfromscientology.com/category/my-experiences/

    • Eclipse-girl

      Last fall I had read all of Claire’s blog. This was new, posted this year on Mother’s Day (US)

      It is very poignant. and have the tissues ready.

    • Frodis73

      Thanks for posting this as I didn’t know Claire had a blog. I would love it if she wrote a book too. She’s one strong woman & I admire her a lot.

    • DeElizabethan

      Thanks from me too, as hadn’t seen this. My heart goes out to Claire and so happy that she escaped and has this written up for us to share about her mom and grandmom.

  • Observer

    beauty for ashes: it looks like Disqus has picked you for its weekly game of Torment the Poster. It singled out someone for the same treatment last week, but I can’t remember who.

    *refresh*

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Ditto that, Obs!

    • Observer

      *refresh*

  • Eclipse-girl

    @ Beauty for ashes, I just tried to reply and can’t
    I saw your post of lets say 45 mins ago

  • . . .

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Oh, Duh…………At first I thought they were JackAsses……………
      Meh, …close….they both are great kickers.

    • aegerprimo

      Reminds me of an appropriate shoop I made a few months ago….

  • aegerprimo

    I just completed posting the list of Co$ bad press for the month of September. I compile this list every month which includes news articles, TV and radio news.

    I maintain this thread at all the discussion forums, so select your fav to browse the monthly lists at catch up on any news you might’ve missed…

    Co$ Bad Press Collection – 2014

    ESMB – http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?34807-Co-Bad-Press-Collection-2014&p=969258&viewfull=1#post969258
    WWP – http://whyweprotest.net/threads/co-bad-press-collection-2014.116701/#post-2487068
    OCMB – http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=722204#p722204
    RFTTP – http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php/topic,12740.msg34762.html#msg34762
    ESK – http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11471&p=35019#p35019

    • Todd Tomorrow

      You’re simply the best. Thanks for your efforts.

      • aegerprimo

        Thank you Todd!

    • Jimmy3

      I see that. Yes, I’m paying attention. Thank you for doing this.

      • aegerprimo

        Heh heh, you are welcome!

    • Eclipse-girl

      I do not know how you find the time. TY

    • vistaril_LOL

      yummy entheta reading…my fav. If anyone has Italian or German language stories I can get them translated quite quickly.

    • Unex Skcus

      Good job! Haven’t see your lists before, hope you repost this at the Bunker next month. “The Masked Avengers: How Anonymous incited online vigilantism from Tunisia to Ferguson” was very interesting.

      • aegerprimo

        Yes, I repost every month at the Bunker, usually in the evening of the last day of the month.

        The Masked Avengers article was interesting. I am a BIG fan and reader of New Yorker magazine. I love this paragraph in the article because it paints the picture of how the Co$ handles bad press these days and how others are unafraid to respond to Co$ threats and history of their “fair game” policy…

        In January, 2008, Gawker Media posted a video in which Tom Cruise enthusiastically touted the benefits of Scientology. The video was copyright-protected, and the Church of Scientology sent a cease-and-desist letter to Gawker, asking that the video be removed. Anonymous viewed the church’s demands as attempts at censorship. “I think it’s time for /b/ to do something big,” someone posted on 4chan. “I’m talking about ‘hacking’ or ‘taking down’ the official Scientology Web site.” An Anon used YouTube to issue a “press release,” which included stock footage of storm clouds and a computerized voice-over. “We shall proceed to expel you from the Internet and systematically dismantle the Church of Scientology in its present form,” the voice said. “You have nowhere to hide.” Within a few weeks, the YouTube video had been viewed more than two million times.

  • 10oriocookies

    I dont believe getting a refund is covered in the sections on High Crimes, Crimes, Misdemeanors and Errors that Comm Ev’s are supposed to cover. Ive been on multiple Comm Ev’s, Courts of Ethics and Boards of Investigation. Its the blind leading the blind in 99% of them. No one has the training or experience in running one. Often times you will find the person guilty of the same things over and over again just rewording what the person supposedly did.

    When I got Comm Ev’d and found guilty of bogus charges I just refused to do the recommendations. The guy running it pulled me in and said do them or be fired. I chose to be fired. That’s their idea of standard tech and justice. Later I got everything thrown out when I did a Review Comm Ev at the next higher org. Even then it was not standard. The point is that they are putting the responsibility of doling out justice to people who are clueless about the procedure itself. It goes along with them passing themselves off as the leaders in drug rehab or human rights, etc. They simply arent and will never be.

  • Anonymous

    Below is an example of a fair, orderly and entirely transparent Scientology Show Trial / Committee of Evidence where no truth, nothing except untruth and the only the full untruth is tediously outlined, before the predetermind decision is read to the guilty party, who would never have been brought to the Committee of Evidence in the first place, if he wasn’t guilty, right?

    Everyone can breath easier knowing that the most ethical people on the planet are diligently at work freeing beings and making life better for everyone, in this sector. Heh.

  • Rob Kline
    • Tony Ortega

      Down below I explained why this piece was such a disappointing waste of time, imho.

      • A serious waste. Talks to Jon Atack and Andreas Heldal-Lund, but doesn’t run the article past anyone to fact-check when Tottenham Court Road (the previous London org) opened.

        • endoftheQ

          It’s probably because they name changed the Tottenham Court Road premises, after entirely gutting and refurbishing them, and then had a “grand” opening. 😉

      • endoftheQ

        I’ve commented below, Tony. It’s 1968, ancient history to many people. 😉

    • aegerprimo

      Interesting thread started at ESMB about the article (of course I added my two cents).

      http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?37177-John-Atack-is-on-a-roll-!-SCEINTOLOGY-IN-THE-UNITED-KINDOM

    • Espiando

      Then why didn’t you, oh, say, go down the thread, read, and see if someone posted it already?

      Jesus fucking Christ, the laziness of people these days. And that’s all it is, laziness. “Oh, there’s too many posts”, my fucking ass. “Oh, I have the attention span and work ethic of a goldfish” is more like it.

      • Captain Howdy

        I can scan every comment in this thread in 10 minutes.

        • Jimmy3

          Me too, but there’s so many of them. I don’t want to have to go down there.

          Btw, A’s – Royals is good and gettin gooder.

          • Captain Howdy

            I can barely stand to watch the Red Sox when they’re in the play-offs. Baseball zzzzzz, I’d rather watch women’s tennis, unless Serena is playing.

            • Jimmy3

              Baseball zzzzz. But when it’s the 12th inning of a 1-game play-in, and one swing can decide an entire season, I’m in.

            • Captain Howdy

              I do enjoy the occasional game, and certain playoff series’ have been phenomenal like the 2004 comeback, of course.

            • Jimmy3

              Royals win in the bottom of the 12th. A’s pitcher who gave up the winning run cited a lack of support from Captain Howdys.

            • Captain Howdy

              Never cared for Oakland…except for the Jack London Museum.

            • Jimmy3

              Oakland is alright. Every now and then it’s fun to go out, have a few drinks, blow off some steam and get stabbed a few times. It’s not for everyone, I will say that.

            • Captain Howdy

              Yeah, West Oakland is a blast..literally. The only place scarier I’ve ever been is Richmond CA.

            • Jimmy3

              What’s so scary about Richmond CA? And don’t say werewolves…

            • Captain Howdy
            • Jimmy3

              It seems to have quite the reputation for thuggery and violent behavior, yet it receives no credit for being werewolf-free. Smdh.

        • Jimmy3
      • Rob Kline

        I actually did. Didn’t see it posted, but realized that doesn’t mean I didn’t miss it. So being a nice guy I shared it and even apologized in case it was a duplicate. But for being an asshat, let me respectfully say to you:

  • DodoTheLaser

    A little update from Karen (F5)

    • DodoTheLaser

      Spain, Germany and France. Nice. (F5)

    • Nice rigs. Will it be available in Morse from that straight key? 🙂

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ RED X +–+RED X +–+ RED X *** Wednesday the 1st of October

    Good morning Early Birds and Night Owls,

    After a push of 96 ads yesterday our 4 Days list is up to a still very manageable 230 or a good 12 minutes flagging, flag them all, blues & purples.
    As usual we can expect an increase in tempo leading to Statsday at 2pm.

    See the tips & tricks about flagging in the left column: Dolly & Vistaril tech, Reboot Router Tech , Enthetameter Tech…… https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    For those who do not do the *3 Days List* here is the balance of yesterday’s ads, scroll up to flag the full day and the previous days: http://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-114#post-2487123

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty AP

  • coonellie

    Do they live in Laguna or do they just like all their pictures to be from there? The main Luis pic is in the restaurant that (many moons ago) was Victor Hugo, overlooking the bluff onto Main. Now, we have Luis and Rocio, again on the bluff, this time, just to the left of the gazebo. So…is this their picture “hot spot”? And, then again, why does it matter? It doesn’t really, except every time I see one of their pictures, it makes me wonder. Do they know that Laguna was gay…really gay???before it was PC?

    I remember my mum’s hairdressers were two lovely men, who even at my tender age, were definitely together. My high school music teacher, from LBHS, was one of the first documented deaths from AIDS. One best friend, was one of the first nurses to an AIDS patient. My best friend in high school was a model, who came out when it wasn’t the “thing” and lost so many friends. How is this relevant? Well, the GARCIAS keep sharing photos of themselves in the most gay town in the USA. Do they know that? I love that they’re sticking it to COS, but do they realize where they’re at?

    As an aside, and not that it matters…growing up in a gay town when the USA didn’t know what that meant gives me a unique perspective. I have a reservoir of sympathy and understanding that is unusual. It also means that I don’t idealize or pretend about what that lifestyle entails. I wouldn’t wish it upon my worst enemy. Sigh..fire away.

    • endoftheQ

      I remember when it was an artists colony. 😉

      • coonellie

        When were you there?

        • endoftheQ

          Mid-1960’s. 😉

          • coonellie

            Then way, way before my time. But it’s interesting that we’ve both been in LB and the UK.

  • If I’d stayed in $cientology and finished two short courses I’d have been a $cientology Magi$trate, a Class 8 of ethics. So I know the subject pretty well. I also know the law pretty well – just returning from a major patent trial on the east coast. That’s a smart judge in the Garcia case, and the Garcias have a smart lawyer. There is NO WAY IN HELL $cientology can prove that assertion except by trotting out some “happy clams” to glowingly discuss how wonderful their CommEv was, and that would open the door to thousands of affidavits about the horrors of CommEvs. The noose on the dwarf grows nearer with every day in court.