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HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

—————- In anticipation of her biggest day in court yet, Laura DeCrescenzo and her attorneys hit the Church of Scientology with 928 pages of new filings —————- Details from 18,000 pages of evidence show how Scientology manipulated a child to keep her working under slave-like conditions —————- A key document describing DeCrescenzo’s unwillingness to have her coerced abortion is missing from the evidence Scientology was ordered to produce By Tony Ortega Wednesday afternoon, Laura DeCrescenzo filed explosive new information in her four-year legal odyssey against the Church of Scientology, submitting 928 pages of new declarations and exhibits in anticipation of a crucial October 23 hearing in her lawsuit against the church which alleges abuse, including allegations that she was forced to have an abortion at only 17 years of age. Key to the new filings is information gleaned from thousands of pages of previously secret files that the church fought mightily to keep under wraps. But on Monday, the U.

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Scientology’s drug rehab hit with another lawsuit; Laura D asked to turn over computer

Ryan Hamilton

Ryan Hamilton

We’re trying to catch up with all of the Scientology legal news happening around the country. Ryan Hamilton, the Las Vegas attorney who is turning suing Scientology’s drug rehab network into a cottage industry, filed his fifth federal fraud lawsuit this week with another complaint against Narconon Fresh Start/Rainbow Canyon Retreat in Caliente, Nevada.

Meanwhile, Laura DeCrescenzo learned that Scientology is trying to get its hands on a computer stored in her garage, and we have numerous other filings regarding Hamilton’s other Narconon lawsuits. Let’s dig in.

Hamilton’s newest lawsuit was filed yesterday on behalf of Harry and Lauren Geanacopulos and their son Peter, who they enrolled in the Nevada Narconon center last fall. The family had learned about the facility in the usual way, after talking to a recruiter who called the facility “Rainbow Canyon Retreat” and “Fresh Start” without mentioning Narconon or its connection to Scientology.

The complaint lays out the other deceptions inherent in the Narconon business model that Hamilton always explains in such detail. That, for example, potential customers are told they’ll get individualized drug counseling, but instead, after arriving, they learn that they’ll be getting introductory Scientology training instead. Hamilton then quotes from other Narconon lawsuits which produced testimony that the treatment regimen at the centers is unscientific, and is advertised with bogus success rates. None of this was revealed to the family when it paid $30,000 up front for their son to enroll in the program.

The Geanacopulos family is suing for breach of contract, fraud, negligence, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Here’s the new complaint…

 

Geanacopulos vs Narconon: Complaint

 
 
Hamilton has also now established a website for informing other potential plaintiffs about his practice and lawsuits against Narconon.

“Our hope is that everyone who has been wronged by Narconon and wants to protect their legal rights against them will know there are attorneys eager to stand up for them,” Hamilton tells us.

Hamilton has now filed five federal lawsuits against Narconon facilities in Nevada and California, and the earlier ones are starting to heat up. We told you previously that in one of the suits, Welch v. Narconon, Narconon’s attorneys had filed a motion to dismiss, and Hamilton then moved for some of Narconon’s responses to be considered admitted. And now he’s filed another reply which explains why Narconon’s attorneys are dissembling when they act like they’ve never heard such accusations before. In fact, Hamilton found another lawsuit recently filed against the Narconon facility in San Diego County which has the same set of allegations — that Narconon hides its connection to Scientology, and doesn’t explain to potential patients that they will be receiving Scientology training, not drug counseling.

And now, a hearing has been set for today in the Welch lawsuit in a Las Vegas courtroom, and we’ll get our first sense of how things go before a judge with one of the Hamilton lawsuits.

One more Hamilton-related update. We told you on April 14 that Narconon had objected to the complaint in the Tarr lawsuit by saying that it was too detailed. Hamilton then fired back. Now, Narconon explains again how Hamilton’s complaint in the Tarr suit should be dismissed.

Notes one of our legal experts, “I believe the reason behind the attack on the complaint is that it mentions celebrity members by name and the church has ordered this attorney to get those names out of the court documents.”

 
Moving on to new developments in Laura DeCrescenzo’s forced-abortion lawsuit against the Church of Scientology. We noticed that some new filings had been made in the case by Scientology’s attorneys, and tracked down copies of what they’ve submitted.

Scientology has filed a motion to compel, claiming that Laura, in a deposition, mentioned that she had a computer stored in her garage that she no longer uses. The church demands access to the machine, and says it will hire a neutral third party firm to scan the contents of the computer’s hard drive in order to find any relevant documents.

We’ll let you know if Laura’s legal team objects to what sounds like a fishing expedition to us.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on April 24, 2014 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer

 

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  • Sydjazz

    No ssurely they can’t take a hard drive. They aren’t government. Are they serious?

    • Missionary Kid

      They are asking that a third party examine it. That way, they supposedly can’t access irrelevant information.

      • EnthralledObserver

        They do have to be specific about what they are looking for though, right?

        • Missionary Kid

          I believe so.

        • RMycroft

          Against Dennis Erlich and FACTNet, they used the searches as fishing expediations, copying everything and deleting anything they felt like.

      • Observer

        “… and says it would hire a neutral third party …” Uh-huh. It’s already been established that Scientology has a huge MU on “neutral” with their legal shenanigans in France.

        • Missionary Kid

          I believe it also means that the third party has to be agreed upon by both parties to the suit. Of course, “neutral” to Co$ means someone who’ll favor them.

          • Observer

            And there would be threats and/or bribes attempted.

      • Just Dee

        They are asking for the computer and then scientology will have a 3rd party look at it. Yeah right…..

      • Django

        It’s dumb as hell. Wouldn’t you, in Laura’s place, erase any possibly incriminating files, given any? Or even, “Oh, that old thing? We reformatted that thing months ago.”

      • Sydjazz

        Third party uhhuh

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      They got one years ago, and the raid to grab it was filmed and put up on the internet. Did it belong to Jesse Prince? Arnie Lerma? Someone here will remember it better than I or have first hand knowledge of the incident.

      • RMycroft

        Probably the Dennis Erlich raid. (I have the original video .. in RealMedia format, bleh!)
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dauM5JhFYXY

        • TDA1541A

          Those Bastards

      • joan nieman

        Yes I remember watching that with my mouth agape. It was a nightmare of justice, so violating watching those creeps come into his home and remove his computer files with a sheriff standing by to assist them. Deplorable!

      • Sydjazz

        Omg. What are these people capable of?!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Curious to know how they knew Laura a) had a computer b) in her garage c) she doesnt use.

      • Jimmy3

        She mentioned an old computer in her garage in a deposition.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Thanks.

        • RMycroft

          If I’m ever so nice as to mention that I have an old computer in the garage, it’ll be headless network-only Linux server, and I’ll expect it to come back with more data than it left.

          Nameplate? Either Ackbar or Nietzsche.

      • joan nieman

        Very curious THDNE.

      • Sydjazz

        From one of her auditing files?

    • DamOTclese2

      What they hope for is that the plaintiff will “obviously have evidence of her crimes” on the computer which will goad her in to destroying the evidence so that they can complain to the Judge. These insane Scientology criminals probably think that everyone is a criminal just like them because Hubbard said so, and since the insane crooks can’t find any evidence of the plaintiff’s crimes, obviously they’re on her “hidden” computer. Something like that, something utterly fricking insane.

  • EnthralledObserver

    What on earth could be on Laura’s old computer that they would want?

    • Observer

      With Scientology there’s no telling if they really think there’s something on the computer or if they’re just trying to harass her.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Laura might have an inkling if she knows what’s on the computers, I guess. It depends why they were even mentioned in the first place.

    • Once_Born

      Anything at all that they might be able to use against her, which they will then claim was exactly what they expected to find – as Tony says, a fishing expedition.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I imagine they aren’t allowed to ‘fish’ so overtly like that… but no doubt they’ll have a good try. I just wonder what they are expecting to find. Does anyone know in what manner, or in what relation to other things, the computers existing was raised?

      • TheMirrorThetan

        I would just hand over an old computer full of lolcats, Davy shoops, dildo images and scohb related porn. And really give them something to fish through.

        • TDA1541A

          They might learn far more usefull stuff than per Hubbard

      • joan nieman

        A desperate fishing expedition, one might add.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      I’d get the disk copied first, backed up fully, before turning if over.

      In fact backing up one’s computer regularly and storing the backup, even multiple backups, send a backup to the Bunker, sheesh.

      And have a witness there when you make your backup!

      Hire a lawyer to watch you make the backup!

      Video you and your lawyer watching you make your full backup!

      LOL

      • EnthralledObserver

        Yep! :)

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      It’s actually two computers they want, which supposedly Laura claimed were in a box in her garage. IANAL, but I think they suspect there’s evidence on them that could hurt their case (meaning they may want to have a looksee before making an offer to settle), or they believe there’s evidence on them that would be detrimental to Laura’s case, or this is simply one of their typical delaying tactics (playing tit for tat because they had to turn over decades of dox to her last year) or fishing expeditions (which I thought courts didn’t allow). In any case, if Laura doesn’t produce them, the chnrch will fine her $5,000 (per computer IIRC?).

      Poor Laura. I don’t know where she finds her courage and determination to see this case to the end, After all these years, if I were Laura, I’d feel so traumatized by my experience in the Sea Org and then re-traumatized not only by the chnrch’s legal shenanigans but by the legal system itself that I’d be on some psychiatric ward in a catatonic state or I would just say, “Just pay my lawyers and court costs. I give up. I’m fed up.”

      You know what, Enthralled? All that to say and to be honest, I haven’t got a clue! :-)

      • EnthralledObserver

        That’s ok… it was kind of a rhetorical question anyway – but thanks for having a crack! :)

    • RMycroft

      “We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little suppressive personses. Wicked, tricksy, false!”
      – Kendrick Moxon.

      • EnthralledObserver

        He looks like Gollum too! *barf*

    • http://www.4chan.org/ Vistaril

      As we know, Scientology uses wog law to harass and exhaust the financial and emotional resources of opposing litigants. That’s the number one reason such motions as this are filed. The ostensible reason in this case appears to be that there are documents on the computer which might disprove Laura’s claims to have not been in a position to file her suit until nearly five years after she escaped the cult. If you recall, Laura has had a struggle to demonstrate why Scientology’s “statute of limitations” defence was invalid. That hurdle now overcome, it looks like Scientology is trying to rake over the coals in an effort to come up with some evidence that Laura may have been in a position to file her suit earlier and, thus, cast doubt on her claims and, perhaps, gain some traction on relitigating the “statute of limitations” aspect. IANAL, just having a guess based on a reading of the cult’s motion. There’s also another reason why Scientology would want to have a look at the computer: to see who she and her then partner were in contact with, when that contact took place, and what information was exchanged. Then there’s the L Ron Hubbard dictate that anyone who opposes Scientology must be a criminal. With that “certainty” in mind, Scientology would also be looking for some sort of dirt or even the skerrick of some innocuous truth which can be manufactured into allegations for use in Standard Tech™ “Fair Game” and “Dead Agenting”.

      The idea that Scientology would not gain access to all the information on the computers regardless of its proposed provisions to limit that probability is just silly. IMHO.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Could be… and yeah, they are fishing out of bounds, I hope the courts will prevent the looking at what they shouldn’t by allocating the ‘third party’ to do the computer examinations, if they even let them have them at all.

      • mightandglory

        IANAL?

        • Once_Born

          ‘I am not a lawyer’ – I had to look that up myself.

          • mightandglory

            Ahhhhh. Thanks :)

          • And I don’t rent cars!

            OK, I’ll confess. It took me FOREVER to stop reading that acronym as, “I’m anal, but…” or “I’m anal, just…”

            Somehow it worked for most comments! (??)

            • Once_Born

              Me too…

    • Jimmy3

      I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know this for sure. But given the description of the computer, I am guessing the hdd has a massive Napster download folder full of vintage mp3s from the late 90s. They probably just want some tunes.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Oh… well that’s a perfectly valid request then… just give ‘em the tunes, Laura! 90’s stuff too – pure gold!

    • DamOTclese2

      Evidence of her crimes. Duh. Scientology criminals really are that insane.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Because there are getting to be sooooo many.. we need a list of pending lawsuits against $cientology (including frontgroups). :)

  • EnthralledObserver

    If they get to have Laura’s old computer… can Ray ask for Lauisse’s phones and blackberries?

    • Observer

      Jinx! :-)

      • EnthralledObserver

        You won! ;)

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      And Laurisse’s folders ! ! ! Oh hell to the yeah.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Yes yes yes yes yes!

    • joan nieman

      Well I certainly hope so. I would smash my computer if I was ordered to hand it over to the scio’s. Just smash it to smitherings.

      • DamOTclese2

        It may be that the Scientology criminals hope the plaintiff would do so, that’s spoilage of evidence which would be a crime.

        • ze moo

          The hard drive has everything and it is difficult to destroy. Short of subjecting it to a very powerful magnetic field, there will be data that can be recovered. If you take the hard drive apart and then take a hammer to it, you can destroy it easily. But that is spoilage of evidence. Even crashed or non-bootable drives have data that can be recovered.

          • Michael Leonard Tilse

            Scientology in the 90s used to have RPFers take apart the retired INCOMM hard drives, remove the platters and sand off the magnetic media coating before scrapping the rest.

  • Observer

    Two can play that game – I think Laura should demand access to Davey’s and Lou’s computers and Blackberries. Those are far more likely to have relevant information on them.

    Hambo FTW!

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      “Those are far more likely to have relevant information on them.”

      I can see it now. The judge will be reading over all of Miscavige’s colorful messages to his OSA minions like ‘YSCOHB’ and ‘YCICS’. The judge would reply, ‘WTF?’

      • rotulette

        I know what YSCOHB: You bip bip on Hollywood Boulevard, can you give hints on YCICS, you may use official medicine terms if you don’t want to be rude. Thx

        • Robert Eckert

          “You Counter-Intention Cocksucker!”

          • rotulette

            Thx

            • Gus_Cox

              Ah, yes, the beautifully-parsed High English of the Prophet of Scientology, Chairman of the Board Religious Technology Center Mr. David Miscavige. It just gets me all teary-eyed, like reading the poetry of Dickinson.

      • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

        What I do not understand.
        Here in the UK all mobile phone bills are stored for several years.
        Each bill can show all text messages on demand. And it can also show phone calls (including the number) and the length of these calls.

        What is the situation in the USA?

        • Once_Born

          The computers that connect mobile ‘phone calls have to be able to identify every handset connect you to a base station, and hand you off from one to another if you are on the move.

          Computers keep logs. Consequently, any mobile telephone (cellphone) system keeps a log of all all the calls made from every handset, how long they were, what number they were connected to, and where the handset was when it was it was made (i.e. the location of the cell tower that it connected to).

          This is the way the system works – it does not matter what country you are in. A court can acquire all of that information.

          However, there is no way (short of a ‘phone tap) of confirming that a particular person made a particular call – complicated by the fact that Miscavige’s calls are passed on through his ‘personal communicator’ to insure plausible deniability.

          In short, there’s a big gap between having accurate ‘phone logs, and proving that a particular person made a particular call in a court of law.

    • TDA1541A
      • And I don’t rent cars!

        Thanks for the link to scientology411’s blog. Why, oh why, haven’t I discovered it before now? It’s a hoot. I’m saving it to explore this evening. I have seen 411’s hilarious comments on OTVIIIisGrrr8t’s blog but didn’t know 411 had a blog as well.

        • TDA1541A

          My pleasure *tips hat*

  • D.Y.G.

    I’m wondering if this a precursor to class action lawsuits against Narconon?

    • Dr_Orpheus

      Unless there is sufficient evidence to get RTC involved in the suit and especially His Oiliness, I’m afraid corporate shell games will squash any hopes of collection.

      • media_lush

        The audit reports Tony posted yesterday clearly showed “refunds”…. and I think any lawyer willing to take on the church is well aware of their tactics and is prepared for them. It’s not if he doesn’t know that there’s no money behind the final curtain.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          And THIS is part of the likely readon you are seeing Narconon Oklahoma showing No Money Here! even tho they stay open. It’s the scientology move the money shell game. It’s the other readon they work so hard in pretending $ doesn’t all go up to scientology’s top management tiers, and DM.

        • Dr_Orpheus

          Knowing it and proving it aren’t the same thing. Still, if they can convince a judge to let them depose DM and successfully fight the inevitable appeals, they have an almost certain chance of forcing him into contempt of court when he fails to show.

        • DamOTclese2

          The amount of the “refunds” were extremely minimal, less than the amount that a single victim gets defrauded of. It would be interesting to find out what the “refund” was for since it does not look like it was money returned to a victim, not unless the victim died before starting Scientology training.

      • DamOTclese2

        “His Oiliness” — ROFL

        • Dr_Orpheus

          It’s very appropriate. I think it came out just after the Bunker had the article on the oiliness table.

    • Espiando

      I’m hoping it’s not. Class actions are shit compared to a multitude of individual actions. Imagine if Scientology tried doing a class action against the IRS in the 80s instead of the 2500 individual suits that they filed. They wouldn’t have got their precious tax exemption, would they?

      (Using the repulsive Internet shorthand that passes for actual language these days, IANAL, so I don’t know if you can file class action against a government agency, or could under the law as it stood during the Reaganista Junta, so correct me if necessary.)

      No, keep up the individual suits. They’re generally litigated faster and can cause more damage. They can drive more Narconons into Brokesville quicker.

      • Once_Born

        The tactic of filing multiple suits (as used by Scientology against the IRS) will actually work better against Scientology.

        Narconon is a transparent fraud. It has only survived thus far because the CofS is willing to bring overwhelming legal force to bear against anyone who takes them to court. They do not have an arguable case, so they use the familiar tactic of employing large legal teams to delay, and exploit the tiniest legal loophole, until the opposition either runs out of money, or is worn out, and accepts a settlement.

        This approach has proved effective against the occasional litigant, because Narconon has been bringing in so much money. Now that Narconon facilities are becoming a financial burden one case, defended in the traditional CofS way, will cost them a lot. 25 will cost them a lot more. 100+ would be insupportable.

        It’s not just spending the money that the CofS will have a problem with. How would a defence against multiple suits be organised? Miscavige can’t effectively manage one or two cases, is incapable of delegating, and has purged all of the competent executives in any case – there is no-one left to delegate to.

        If there are multiple cases, surely mistakes will be made, and damaging precedents set – which will encourage a second wave of claims. Bring it on!

  • Missionary Kid

    I hope the Streisand Effect takes place when the celebrities’ names get fought over.

    • Betsy

      MK: don’t forget, I’m an old out-of-it person. Streisand effect?

      • Observer
        • Betsy

          Thanks, Obs. It was in WIKIPEDIA? And I never heard of it? Oboy, that pretty much kills the rest of MY day…

          • Missionary Kid

            The third example in the article speaks directly to one of the biggest mistakes Co$ ever made. “In January 2008, The Church of Scientology’s unsuccessful attempts to get Internet websites to delete a video of Tom Cruise speaking about Scientology resulted in the creation of Project Chanology.”

            Footbullet anyone?

            • ze moo

              Foot bazooka, that started the 4chan megaraids and the current run of $cientology investigations and reporting. Of course, that was after 10 or 15 years of copyright claims, computer seizures and searches and much lawyer time.

            • Missionary Kid

              Co$ sure pulled it in, didn’t they?

  • D.Y.G.

    Ryan Hamilton’s new site links to the Bunker :D

  • Maradona is OT X

    !!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Gotta love Ryan Hamilton’s Narconon-specific website.
    No J and D here – it goes right to the heart of the matter.
    The Bunker-link is a neat genuflection in Tony’s direction too.

    I have to agree completely with Espi on the issue of individual law-suits versus class-action – the more suits, the better.
    They will be overwhelmed and driven to a richly-deserved bankruptcy.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    To borrow a phrase from the fight against cancer, I keep looking for the “magic bullet” that will destroy Scientology.

    It was great to hear yesterday’s news, that Narconon Arrowhead is losing money. This is in stark contrast with Scientology’s total worth which would allow the cult to cut all of Narconon loose and not even miss the income it once realized from it or to endure the financial bleeding for decades without that making much of a dent either.

    With lawsuits like the one described today, I see hope for justice for Laura DeCrescenzo but also the chance of a snowball effect. Ryan Hamilton is a brave man. If he is also a smart man, an energetic man and a lucky man we could see him winning in court, maybe consistently and with large settlements. Other lawyers could continue the battle and his “cottage industry” could become something much larger. Also, in Tony’s words the suit is for “breach of contract, fraud, negligence, and intentional infliction of emotional distress”. That sounds like Scientology on the whole every bit as much as Narconon.

    If a few of these suits are successful maybe we can look forward to more working out, then to the basic principals of them being used against the cult as a whole, as they should be.

    • RMycroft

      On the other hand, criminal investigations, not so hot.
      * Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, stopped “actively investigating” August last year.
      * Oklahoma Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services, fired two investigators August last year.
      * Pittsburg County District Attorney, hmmm.
      * Pittsburg County Sheriff, would rather see kids Scientologist than dead.

      • Observer

        With Narconon, there’s a chance they’ll end up both as Scientologists and dead.

        • RMycroft

          Yeah, and it’s a False Dilemma since those aren’t the only two choices.

          • Missionary Kid

            OT. Is it you that has a Raspberry Pi?

            • RMycroft

              Yup.

            • Missionary Kid

              If you’ve got the time, please contact me off list at skepticalmissionarrykid at gmail dot com (note misspelling of missionarry) I’m interested in Raspberry Pi. I know enough about computers to be dangerous. (A little knowledge is a dangerous thing).

            • RMycroft

              Noted.

        • Baby

          Awww Baby Bear looks so cute…all tucked in..He’s got his Big Boy suit on..awwww

          • joan nieman

            Ugh!

            • Baby

              Hahhahahhahahhaha UGH is right! And his lifts are markin up the sheets!

        • And I don’t rent cars!

          It says a lot when the Sheriff’s head is too big for his Sheriff hat – just saying.

        • TDA1541A

          That kid on the right is dressed too fancy, he dealing drugs ?

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        Thanks for pointing those things out. Those turns of events were great disappointments. By the way, I always read your comments and find them very enlightening. I think I know who you are. One day we will run into each other and I will find out for sure.

        I still think, “Too many butterfly effects”.

        I also see the flow chart for Scientology’s future going in many different directions. It can remain a small organization that is only able to hurt a small number of people. As we have seen in the recent past, movie stars, IRS decisions, slave labour and real estate acquisitions haven’t put a cult office on every corner or had the school kids of Ontario saying, “Yeah, you know that deserves another look”. Galen Weston’s family business isn’t going to be outdone by our favourite nut cult anytime soon.

        On the other side of it I am thinking death by communication or death through the courts. And with enough communication even the police will one day have to take notice. That police raid in Ontario years ago resulted in the closing of about half of their cult offices. We see France now, having done something similar. Belgium seems to be on the cusp of it. I think the justice departments have largely failed in confronting the cult of Scientology but they have not been completely without success either.

        Maybe we just don’t have our Ralph Nader yet. Maybe we are looking at him (or them). Maybe he will never come.

        • aquaclara

          Ralph Nader’s here, don’t worry.

          He’s Tony Ortega. David Love. Monique Rathbun. Team RayJ. Team Babbitt/Garcia.
          Laura. Mike Rinder. Marty. RFTTP. Jonny. Jeff. Pete. Anonymous. Flag Down. Marc and Claire. Russell. Our Roaring Brit. Jillian. Karen and J. Swift. Tory. Mike Bennitt. Marc Bunker. Belgium. Ryan Hamilton. Every lawyer willing to face the cult. Every ex who has spoken out, or held out a hand to a fellow escapee. Every author. Shoopers. Writers. Commenters. France. etc. etc. etc. right through to the X Brigade.

          It’s coming. Even in Georgia, I have to believe. Because no one here is giving up.

          • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

            Thanks Clearwater. I hope your right. Maybe we don’t need a Ralph Nader. Maybe a series of people who will keep the public aware is what we need (and what we have). I have found it disheartening that Scientology is worth so much. But gratifying that there are less and less people going through their doors. I long for the day when the only door to go through is the backdoor of some fool’s house, and there are only a handful of very naive diehards going through. It may still happen in my lifetime. Thanks for the positive outlook and the thoughtful words.

            • aquaclara

              Korgo, I have to believe it will end. Soon. There’s progress every day, and every year. I don’t see parents standing outside of the Fort Harrison, feeling helpless that they don’t know where their son or daughter is, hidden, like all else in a Scientology behind locked doors. The secrets are unravelling swiftly.

              As you have noted, fewer are walking in to see what the cult is up to. Take a look online, and the j & d plus the real blogs and forums in the critics community post first.
              No one I know is falling for an LRH book.

              What impresses me most? The worldwide unity against the dangers of the cult, right here, every day. Scientology cannot persevere against the forces of good linked around the globe. They might be able to put up a tent every once in a while, but that’s not going to clear a curb, let alone a sidewalk, a town or a zip code. The politicians and law enforcement who sold their souls are in the minority. The secrets of the cult are becoming almost non-existent, and the truth is coming out. Daily. Almost hourly.

              People are leaving the cult. And posting, speaking up, filing lawsuits and writing books.
              And the real wins will continue to come when people walk out of the cult and reclaim their families.

            • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

              Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply, AQ, What you say is very, very encouraging. I am seeing the same thing here, but I worry about the contrary information which exists as well. I am worried a little less now.

          • RMycroft

            At I recall, the Nader Institute has an interesting archive of CoS documents.

      • ze moo

        Also Georgia has not indited any person for the insurance fraud at NarCONon Georgia. The state took the facilities operating license and didn’t even get a ‘guilty’ plea from the corporate owners. Why hasn’t Mary Reiser been arrested?

  • NOLAGirl

    So…they took him to a doctor, the doctor said those amounts of Niacin were dangerous and should be lowered or stopped all together, then they take him back to Narconon and feed him more Niacin. You dumb-ass, mind-fucked Ron-Bots…you’re lucky you didn’t kill this guy.

    Hambo…best of luck to you and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this: Subpoena that doctor.

    • Observer

      Pffft, what does a wog doctor know? Ron said megadoses of niacin, so megadoses of niacin it will be!

      • NOLAGirl

        Girl, I just can’t with these people sometimes. Haven’t even had a second cup of coffee and I want to slap someone. I hope Hamilton drags them through court until Narconon is nothing but a distant memory. This “treatment” makes me sick.

        • Betsy

          I was trying to figure out what effect this had had on me and you nailed it: I want to slap someone.

          If I had just gone through cold turkey and they made me spend hours shouting at an ashtray, I would get back on drugs as fast as possible.

          I’m interested in Dr. Louis Casal, who it says was there as an expert witness for Narconon. Obviously he acted like a medical professional and not a professional greed monster, and testified truthfully. What I would like to know is: is he safe? Have he, his loved ones, or his pets had any little “accidents” since this testimony was given? I really hope he’s watching his back.

          Same goes for Hero Hambo!

          • And I don’t rent cars!

            Hero Hambo – loved it, Betsy.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      It’s almost like, oh what’s that phrase, oh yeah, criminal neglect.

      • ze moo

        Practicing medicine without a license.

    • DamOTclese2

      These quack medical frauds always hope that their victims don’t consult actual medical doctors for just that reason.

  • baddog5623

    Makes you wonder if Fresh Start is doing the same thing ?

  • aquaclara

    So we have 2 new Narconon lawsuits to read this morning, and someone’s in court today. Wow. Before completely relishing the legal bits here, I just have to say that what these Narconon patients have gone through is scary. How devastating it must be to discover that a behavioral treatment is potentially ruining your life, both emotionally and physically. I wish them all the best, and look to the day when there are no filled beds at any NN facility anywhere.

    Ryan, good luck in court today. Your cases are well-stated, and get at the truth of the NN Scientology scam. Oh, and nice website. I like that it connects all the NN news that so many have worked on, including here, with Tony’s work, and the Reaching For The Tipping Point and The new site. So many people working hard to get this stuff shut down, before there are more deaths.

    • DamOTclese2

      And some of the medical damage that these Scientology criminals commit against their customers might not be discovered until years or decades later. Then it becomes a question of proving that Scientology’s quack medical frauds caused the damage when victims seek to sue.

  • Snippy_X

    Scientology … demands access to [Laura's] machine

    They seem to think they are the FBI/NSA incarnate. Well, if they can seize her computer, then she should be able to seize theirs. Any and all of them.

    and says it will hire a neutral third party firm to scan the contents of the computer’s hard drive in order to find any relevant documents.

    Yeah right.

    • OrangySky

      If there is a neutral third party involved, let the court hire that person. NOT Scientology. There is no such thing as a “neutral third party” in Scientology!

    • EnthralledObserver

      I also think $cientology has forgotten that THEY are the defendants…

    • joan nieman

      OMG! I am still fuming at the audacity!!

    • richelieu jr

      “Looky here! We found some child pornography! That was sent by.. Marty Rathbun! We are shciked! SHOCKED! And a file saying David MIscavige is totally innocent, 6’3″ and saves puppies in hisnspare time ont he way to giving generously tot he charities of your choice!”

      Any idiot that would give those clowns access to their computer…

      • Observer

        She has no choice if the court orders it.

        • ze moo

          The chances of the clampire finding anything relevant to the Laura’s suit are very low. And Laura’s team gets first crack at declaring anything found, ‘privileged’. The whole motion is just a time waster. As the clams ask for nothing to search for, the motion should IMHO be denied.

          Laura’s team has alleged non-compliance with earlier discovery. They seem to have made a good case that CO$ did not turn over all the evidence that the clams had. Where does that issue stand?

        • Robert Eckert

          A standard procedure, and what they seem to be asking for, is to appoint a “special master” who works for the court, not either side, and makes a neutral determination if anything on the hard drive is relevant to the case.

  • Truthiwant

    This is a bit off topic.

    Just yesterday, Marty Rathbun said that “Scientology is a religion”.

    First of all, it is interesting that if he really believes this, then why doesn’t he spell it with a capital S!

    However, if his idea happened to be based on one of the definitions in the Oxford dictionary, then there would be nothing wrong with his statement. But Rathbun is obviously not interested in the usual definition of the word because in the ensuing four sentences that qualify his initial words, he states that it is a religion because it works if you believe it will and doesn’t work if you don’t believe it will, just like all other religions.

    What Rathbun is saying, apart from being a sweepingly bewildering proclamation, has nothing to do with the definition of the word ‘Religion’. Catholics do not go round saying “I’m a Catholic because it works for me.”

    So to say that Scientology is a religion because it is workable to the degree that one believes in it, is misleading to say the least.

    Rathbun quite obviously has a strange notion of the word ‘Religion’. It’s interesting because I thought word clearing was one of the fundamental beliefs of Scientology.

    His concept that Scientology works if you believe it will, and visa versa won’t work for the individual that doesn’t belive it will, is disconcerting at best and more probably, a totally false pronouncement.

    My ex-wife firmly believed in Scientology, but it never really worked for her. Having personally paid for her Clear auditing, I was so dissapointed with the results that I questioned the whole cycle (and got a declare for my efforts!). A high ranking official from Saint Hill told me that her auditing didn’t work because she hadn’t paid for it herself! It didn’t work because she was out-exchange!

    Personally, I didn’t like Scientology and certainly did not believe in it. Then I did a small course and actually seemed to get something out of it. That very day was, in fact, the most dangerous moment in my life. I got swept in to the group and it took me the next twenty five years to realize that my original feeling was correct.

    Maybe Scientology does work for some people, but it sure has very little to do with believing in it. It was never meant to be ‘believed in’ because Hubbard himself stated without any doubt that it was truth and fact. Rathbun’s idea is not exactly new, but coming from him, it is surprising.

    My idea is that Scientology works a bit like somebody saying “It will rain tomorrow.” If it does rain, then does it mean that that person was right because of his belief that it will rain tomorrow, or because there was a 50/50 chance it was going to rain anyway?

    Call it what you want, but there is one definition that is for sure, and that is Scientology should be called a ‘For-Rent-Contract-Religion’. It’s only yours when you pay for it and abide by the rules. And at your own risk, I might add.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      For Marty:
      Reality works whether you believe in it or not.

      Scientology doesn’t work if you test what it promises.
      Show me a FUCKING clear.

      • Once_Born

        In social science, it is notoriously difficult to define ‘religion’. Whenever one scholar comes up with one, others pile in examples of religious groups that are not covered by it.

        My working definitions go like this:

        > If a group requires you to have faith in phenomenon or arguments that cannot, even in principle, be tested – that’s a religion.
        > If claims are made that can be tested by anyone at any time and survive the most rigorous examination – that’s science.
        > If something only works for believers, and does not work for non-believers – that’s self-deception.

        Psychics rely on Marty’s sort of self-deception. I was once offered a ‘psychic reading’ and declined to answer any of the questions put (I’m seeing a young woman… is she important to you?). I confined myself to, “you’re the psychic – you tell me”.

        It turned out that I was a sceptic (who would have thought it?) and the spirits could not abide an atmosphere of scepticism, so a reading could not be made. I was very politely thrown out.

        If you believe, you think it works for you, and that’s enough for you. If it doesn’t work for others – why, that’s only because they don’t believe. This a very neat, self-sealing justification for your self-deception.

        Marty is a very strange psychological place. He can’t bring himself to acknowledge that he dedicated years of his life, and based his self-concept, on a lie. Worse yet, he is struggling with this internal conflict online, while defending himself against outrageous persecution.

        • Panopea Abrupta

          He has also very definitely willingly participated in multiple criminal activities.
          Fair-game – he ran the damn stuff for years. That’s why he speaks of karma when referring to the appalling ordeal Lil FiveOne put him through.

          The cult has been criminal since it’s inception.
          All high-level admin and management have been complicit, overtly or tacitly.
          And Marty KNOWS it.

          Now he is coming across as if he thinks he is some deep Taoist master who has profound understanding to offer us.
          It strikes me as incredibly arrogant.

          He is a very smart man. He is reading outside the bubble now. But he is pulling woo-woo out of his ass as much as his mentor ever did.

          It is the dilemma that all exes must find themselves in – coming to terms with an investment of time, money and dreams poured into a cess-pit.

          I wish him well on his journey.
          Out is better than in.
          I won’t be using him as my mentor anytime soon.

          • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Natalia 2.0

            Wow, this is perfectly stated. I feel exactly the same way about him.

          • Once_Born

            I have looked up some of his ‘references’ and found that they almost always lead to elaborate pseudo-science – often with superficial similarities to Scientology concepts.

            Marty is no longer part of the CofS, but is still confined by the magical thinking that sustains it, so his efforts to build a new identity only lead to him to wandering a woo-woo labyrinth. If he is “a very smart man”, he is wasting his mind on this stuff.

            I suspect the problem is that his previous prominent position in the CofS (where he was, according to the title of his latest book, a “Scientology Warrior”) and his prominent position in the independent community are an essential aspect of his self image. This makes it so much harder for him to cut his losses, and completely abandon the Scientology mindset.

            • richelieu jr

              ‘Magical Thinking’ is exactly the term I was about to post O_B.

              One might think someone with Marty’s history might think twice before setting himself up as Mr Guru Answer-Man, but then he’s not to adept at thinking twice.

              A wiser man would merely type ‘sorry’ on his blog for the next few decades as some pseudo-penance.

              And if you’ve got the goods on Miscavige, spit it the fuck out, Marty. What’s the hold-up?

              Does it rhyme with ‘Match-shot Puff Mimmitay-shuns?

            • Once_Born

              I think to an extent that Scientology is all he has known and, when he tries to engage with the real world, he has made the mistake of looking for familiar concepts in other fringe ideas – the most prominent being the notion that you can make things happen by believing very hard (which is as common in the world of fringe ideas as notions of ‘the life force’).

              He’s trying to salvage all of the ideas which he found embedded in Scientology, and is still committed to, from fragments of of books and websites that he finds lying around. He seems to need to make them right.

              If he can prove to himself that Scientology ideas are valid in this way, he does not have to abandon that magical thinking – and the questionable things that he did in the CofS can be blamed on Miscavige.

              How long does the ‘Match-shot Puff Mimmitay-shuns’ apply in the sort of things that Marty got up to?

            • Robert Eckert

              The problem is that if the Lisa MacPherson case is regarded as a murder, there is no limitation on that.

            • Once_Born

              A Mexican stand-off then. He can’t attack Miscavige without incriminating himself.
              So dropping hints, in order to sell books is more than a little cynical.

            • richelieu jr

              Well, even he admits he helped to cover up a killing, and that took forever for him to admit.. Who knows what secrets he’s keeping (as he implies he is?)

          • Mooser

            “That’s why he speaks of karma when referring to the appalling ordeal Lil FiveOne put him through.”

            I don’t know about this “put him through” All he had to say was “NO” or “FUCK, NO” I am not going to do that and walk out. From what I’ve read, that works, if you’ve got the balls to do it.

        • And I don’t rent cars!

          What you’ve written is very helpful, thanks.

          Starting with Marty’s obscure post about the e-meter several weeks ago, I got the impression that he’s still confused (and trying to “unconfuse” himself) and tangled up in Hubbard’s big ball of knotted bit and pieces of salvaged and scavenged yarn – full of bits Hubbard plagiarized from the various disciplines of philosophy, psychology, science, mathematics, physics, etc.. I get the sense Marty is making great efforts to untangle Hubbard’s pseudo-science from actual science and he keeps getting close to making the leap from one to the other but something is holding him back from making the complete transition. I can empathize with his situation because of the position he once held and the length of time he was involved in the chnrch – not to mention the insanity of that first week when he first joined scientology. That’s an incredible story in and of itself.

          From his recent posts about religion to questioning the validity of e-meters and posting a ist of “studies” and suggested reading for his followers, I think Marty is at the stage where he should be reading up on the placebo and the nocebo effects to figure out how these apply to his concept of scientology as a religion and what the e-meter does and does not measure. In his posts, he seems to be flirting with, but not quite getting it, these physiological effects from the field of medicine and formally studied through science.

          I can’t help but wishing that Marty would mothball his blog for a while as he has been using it for too many different purposes since the trial, not the least of which is directly challenging and threatening Miscavige online by promising to write an additional expose (book), in addition to the three he has in the works. I can’t help but think he is confusing and potentially damaging his followers, Monique’s case, and maybe even himself at some point in his future by having all of this documented online.

          I think he should just go back to keeping a private journal and private correspondence with his followers until he reaches a greater point of clarity about his past involvement with the CoS, its “tech” and Hubbard’s writings. He could inadvertently be harming more people in the meantime – people who are already dazed and confused as a result of leaving their chnrch. It was quite sad and pitiful to hear the cries of confusion, the upsets, the defensive rationalizations, etc. in his followers’ 350+ comments when he posted about an e-meter study. I had to stop reading as it was to painful to watch these comments develop.

          And if Marty continues to write posts about issues that relate to Monique’s case, or directs them them to Miscavige again, he definitely should wait until her case is over.

          I do wish him the best. And I do hope the members who claimed to have been harmed by his actions while in the chnrch can come to some kind of resolution that brings them peace.

          Note: But I could be wrong as I am not a lawyer nor an avid reader of his blog.

          Sigh… As he desired, Hubbard smashed his name into the history books alright but he also ruined too many lives in the process of acquiring fame and wealth. I can’t help but wish the Department of Veterans Affairs had given him the psychiatric services he requested so long ago, so maybe all of this could have been avoided. And to think, maybe one little pill could have averted this 60 year long tragedy of ruined lives and ruined minds. Go ask Alice…

          • richelieu jr

            I agree with much of this.

            I just wish he’d stop publishing books, blog posts and making sweeping statements about truth and other people’s guilt and honesty when he isn’t even sure what books he really read (Barefaced Messiah, to name one) before pillorying the author(s).

            I agree he’s untangling things, but at some point you throw that ball of yarn in the f’ing garbage and start from scratch.

            • And I don’t rent cars!

              Yes! Well said.

            • Once_Born

              Exactly. Marty has simply failed to cut his losses, and move on.
              This can’t be easy, but many exes have had the courage to this, and are better for it.

            • Mooser

              “Exactly. Marty has simply failed to cut his losses, and move on.”

              So he’ll be able to tell Monique that the only way he can move on is if she drops the suit?

              He can’t go anywhere good with this. And there is, dare I say it, the absurdity redundant in, and overflowing from, the idea of Rathbun, of all people, as a spiritual adviser. One is tempted to ask, “Whatsamatter Rathbun, it took 25 years for your intuition to kick in?

            • Mooser

              And BTW, he’s not doing much to make his commenters look good. it’s more like he is encouraging the worst in them.

            • Once_Born

              I meant that he had failed to cut his losses in the investment he had made in the Scientology mindset, and moved on to more rational view of the world. That’s an intellectual matter.

              The only way he can move on is to see this suit through to the end – and win. If they lose their nerve at this point, they will never, ever be left alone. That’s a practical matter.

              Finally: no, I would not adopt Marty as a ‘spiritual adviser’ either – precisely because of his predilection for irrational belief.

            • Mooser

              “The only way he can move on in a practical way is to see this suit through to the end – and win”

              And live the rest of his life on Scientology’s ill-gotten money that he was finally able to wrest from Miscavige? Oh yeah, he’ll “move on” then! Won’t he have a great time reflecting how he managed to grab so much of it, instead of it being used to make restitution? Yup, he’ll “move on” and he will probably be running the rest of his life.

          • Robert Eckert

            Lawyers frequently experience clients who just cannot accept the advice to STFU, even when it is crucial to STFU.

            • Mooser

              “Lawyers frequently experience clients”

              Gosh, Mrs. Rathbun, who is the plaintiff in the suit, seems to be an ideal client.

          • Mooser

            “I can’t help but wishing that Marty would mothball his blog for a while
            as he has been using it for too many different purposes since the trial,
            not the least of which is directly challenging and threatening
            Miscavige online by promising to write an additional expose (book),”

            Oh freakin’ great. Anotherwords, if he can, he’ll provide a reason for the suit to be dropped?

          • Mooser

            “Starting with Marty’s obscure post about the e-meter several weeks ago, I got the impression that he’s still confused”

            I read that. He’s not confused at all about the e-meter! In fact, he knows that it’s Scientology which is confused about the e-meter! See the e-meter actually reads (by presentiment) five seconds before the question is asked. So there’s no point in reading it after the question (or “concept”) is asked, like those silly Scientologists do! And then he goes on to explain how upper-level auditing interferes with our ability to develop “telepathy”.

      • joan nieman

        That statement of Jason’s tells it all.Precise and simple. ” Show me a fucking clear”.

      • Mooser

        A clear? Hell, I’d be happy if I could see an e-meter with a five-second “presentiment” As Marty puts it.

        • Robert Eckert

          There’s nothing at all unusual about that. Your galvanic resistance will respond more during the tense seconds while you are waiting to be asked a question, than it will while the question is being asked or while you are answering it.

          • Once_Born

            I have an approximately 10-second presentiment when donating blood.
            My heart rate goes up when I see the nurse getting that big needle out, long before he/she sticks it in my arm – but I think that’s conditioning, not telepathy.

            • Mooser

              Hey, “pre-sentiment”, “intuition”, “telepathy”, what’s the diff?

          • Mooser

            Robert, if your “galvanic resistance” can be tied to anything in a useful way, why isn’t every doctor’s office equipped with a VOM? Do you have any proof that a change in body resistance (as “indicated” by a very crude meter, since there’s no unit of measurement, and no calibration) can be used to tell anything about a person’s psychology of physiology, except maybe how tightly they happen to be gripping the cans something (grip) which is, BTW completely under their control?

            Wouldn’t it be a hell of a lot more practical to keep track of their respiration rate (and depth) their heart rate, and blood pressure?

            Yes sir, next time I go to the doctor, I’m gonna look him right in the eye and tell him I want my resistance checked.

            • Robert Eckert

              I made no assertion whatsoever that the galvanic resistance can be tied to anything in any useful way. You are back to arguing with imagined enemies.

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      Marty has been writing blog posts and uttering pronouncements lately that people are having difficulty understanding – even his longtime followers. I don’t know if this intentional or merely a by-product of the
      process he going through.

      If you haven’t already, you can go to ESMB to read the thread that’s been developing there since yesterday: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?35681-scientology-by-Mark-quot-Marty-quot-Rathbun

      • Truthiwant

        Thanks!

      • OrangySky

        I would guess that he’s going through a lot, as is Mosey. I think he is a guy who was just starting to get comfortable in the gray areas of life (where, if we are honest, we all must live for the most part ) and now he’s in a terrible situation – a new baby, a wife under incredible stress, and the pressures of a high-profile suit (not to mention whatever fair gaming is going on behind the scenes.)
        I know it’s a generalization but in my personal experience, husbands often feel the need to “fix” things when their wives are in pain or stressful situations. I’ll take a shot in the dark and guess that Marty is looking for certainty again, perhaps subconsciously, because he is in a situation that cannot be fixed (in the short term) and he loves his family and wants this all to end for them.
        He’s a seeker. Go back and read his blog from the beginning. His views are not immutable, which is the best thing he has going for him, actually.
        Accept the gray areas, Marty. And you WILL get through this. That’s by best advice.

        • richelieu jr

          Husbands like Marty doubtless feel the need to fix things as well because the situation is 100% his fault and zero hers.

          • Mooser

            So Marty can fix things by projecting his intentions, or telepathy, or intuition. If Mosey read those posts the last four or so, do you think she would be comforted?

            • richelieu jr

              Should I care? She knows her husband was scilon, and she wasn’t,
              and he’s got a beef with midget miscavige, and she didm’’t, etc..
              It’s not news to her. She’s not an idiot, after all.

            • Mooser

              “She’s not an idiot, after all”

              Absolutely not, she seems like a very clear-thinking woman. So I guess she’ll just have some more to worry about..
              She’s probably pretty busy, but I think Rathbun should let Monique edit his blog. I’d like to see what happens when he gets a post back with a big “WTF? Please re-write” on it in red pencil.

            • richelieu jr

              Ha! Me too!

            • Mooser

              Actually, if I ever have an important letter to write, or I write anything for even the meanest publication, I hand it to my wife, and if she says “WTF, please re-write”, I do it. She is an excellent editor.

        • And I don’t rent cars!

          I agree, OrangySky. Insightful and thoughtful – as usual.

          And yes, I also agree that he is still a seeker and his views are not immutable – to his credit, as you say.To that I add, “Thank goodness.” – especially since he has so many scientology “refugees” following him and his blog. I wish the same could be said of most of them. They are one of the reasons I stopped reading his blog, I found it too painful to read of their struggles as they, too, tried to find their way out of the mindf*ck.

          I do give Marty credit for all the mental reconfigurations he has put himself through and continues to do. I’m not sure what I would have done in his place – I’d probably still be curled up in a fetal position, sucking my thumb, and hiding under the blankets. Or I’d be a raging alcohol or with some other form of addiction. Or lying in a hospital bed on some lockdown ward, in a catatonic state. Or I’d… well, you get the idea.

          I have such much respect for former members here and on other forums who are speaking up and thriving or even the ones who are trying to maintain that fine balance between fear and hope – of being in official “good standing” yet planning their exit. Quelle courage!

        • Betsy

          You know…well said. And I suddenly realized: a lot of the sort of stuff he is writing now is similar to the stuff I wrote when I was 18 and in college, just discovering philosophy. In other words, somewhat pompous, and also an adolescent’s reaction to discovering that there are whole new ways (and old ways) of thinking about the world than the adolescent had previously know.

          In some ways we can consider Marty to be a “philosophy adolescent”…he spent so long only have access to one series of what I am reluctant to call “ideas.” You are right, he IS a seeker.

          Having had “certainty” for most of his life, I’m sure he is reluctant to let go of it, especially considering the pressures on him.

          Grey areas are the parts of thinking that adolescents don’t like, but as they move through life, they may realize that they need to accept them. I hope Marty gets there soon.

        • Mooser

          Gosh, he could get a lot of certainty back into his life by convincing Monique to drop the suit, couldn’t he?

    • http://www.4chan.org/ Vistaril
      • Baby

        From Hubbard Communication Office Policy Letter of October 1962, ‘Religion':

        “Scientology 1970 is being planned on a
        religious organization basis throughout the world. This will not upset
        in any way the usual activities of any organizations. It is entirely a
        matter for accountants and solicitors.”

      • Betsy

        Vist, thanks so much for this link. I didn’t know about Lawrence Brennan. I hardly dare ask…did anything “happen” to him, as he obviously feared in this beginning of this statement?

        • Spackle Motion

          Larry Brennan is no longer with us, but we now have the beautiful and loving Denise Brennan that took his place. She’s such a wonderful lady and I admire her tremendously.

          She is often at ESMB if you want to follow her comments.

    • richelieu jr

      By his definition, Homeophathy is therefore a religion.

      Not a great thinker, Marty.

      • Betsy

        Right…he says “what works for you” is a kind of religion. Given that, Mussolini’s fascism (he made the trains run on time!) or eating your enemys’ brains to enhance your strength are equally valid religions, as long as they seem to be working.

        • Mooser

          Gosh, that’s not what I get out of it at all! I thought he says Scientology works like any other religion.
          Which seems to me to beg for the question, “why the hell can’t he say whatever the hell it is he has to say in a few, well-chosen simple words?”
          There’s a reason why he can’t do that, I don’t know what it is, but, gee, in most cases, is it a good one?

          And it would seem to me that the most helpful thing for a person decompressing from Sci is simple clarity where it can be achieved. And why would it be so hard to provide that on the subjects Marty is addressing?

          • Robert Eckert

            The reason he can’t do that is because he listened to Hubbard’s bloviations for so long he thinks that’s how people ought to talk.

            • Mooser

              I fear your explanation is quite correct. So maybe, in a sense, he did “graduate”.

              Again, if even a fraction of the misery we hear about here is true, the notion of “graduating” from Scientology is damned insulting.

      • Truthiwant

        With Rathbun’s latest definition, my microwave is also a religion, because it works for me and I believe in it when I heat up my lasagne.

    • Betsy

      I read Marty’s site, and I applaud him and Monique, but I have to admit that his writings really confuse me. I really can’t tell where he is headed most of the time. And many of the long comments by regular commenters who have thrown in with his philosphic soup seem to be equally confused (and confusing.) That said, I have great admiration for him, and I hope he will detach himself more and more as time goes on.

      • joan nieman

        Betsy, not only do we probably look alike, we think alike as well!! I do like Marty as he is sincere in his learning. He may be trying just a bit too much. Life isn’t that complicated. There is no pot of gold. We just adapt and ride the waves. Simple really.

        • Truthiwant

          A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal.

          Oscar Wilde

          • Mooser

            Oscar Wilde? Man, what a two-faced guy! Isn’t he the same one who used to blather all the time about the importance of being earnest? His mouth talks out of both sides of his hat!

      • Truthiwant

        Rathbun knows as much about the workings of Scientology as Miscavige does.

        • Mooser

          “Rathbun knows as much about the workings of Scientology as Miscavige does.”

          Wow, you sure know how to hurt a guy! You really think Rathbun is that bad?

    • ze moo

      $cientology is self-help scam that in the end, only sells you the imagination that they programed into you. Even Lroon said the religion angle was only for lawyers and accountants. As one can call pretty much anything a religion today, the word has lost most of its meaning.

      • Truthiwant

        Perhaps Rathbun should think a bit more before publishing a post.
        Some of his followers have written some pretty idiotic comments.

        • Mooser

          “Perhaps Rathbun should think a bit more before publishing a post.”

          And still that brilliant flow of soul and feast of reason? Hey, maybe most ordinary people ‘escape’ from Scientology, but only a special few “graduate” from Scientology, and are then willing to tell others how to do it.

    • DamOTclese2

      Marty is a dip shit.

      • Mooser

        “Marty is a dip shit.”

        I have a bad feeling about this. Unless, of course, it’s all a ruse to drive Miscavige crazy(er) by giving him lots of clues he (Miscavige) will interpret as some kind of woo-woo-coup-plotting.

    • Spackle Motion

      This statement and most of the ones that follow below bring a tear to my eye. When I make similar arguments against Rathbun’s bullshit, I often get vilified (even by our Proprietor) in comments. Rathbun is both a hero and a villain here, but his arrogant/bullying defensive attitude and his narcissistic need to unravel online simply disgust me.

      He still promotes and provides medical quackery for a fee, which is a dangerous form of hypnotic behavioral modification therapy with a long history of causing emotional and psychological damage. He refuses to come clean with his actions and attacks others that politely and logically question this fact. He rails against others that fail to publicly apologize for their actions but refuses to do the same himself. He fundamentally blames Miscavige for actions leading to the IRS granting 501(c)(3) status but refuses to divulge and admit his own culpability in this large crime.

      Yes, he is a main factor in bringing down the cult but this does not erase his hypocritical nature, which should be called out on a regular basis.

      • Truthiwant

        The truth about Scientology is like a jigsaw puzzle that is being slowly pieced together and the picture is coming out. Unfortunately there are some pieces missing. They are not lost but they are in the hands of people that don’t want to hand them over for the moment. The reasons for doing this are many, as you can imagine.

        Rathbun still has a few of those pieces, although it is true he has already handed over some other pieces of the puzzle.

        Let’s wait and see. To me he is Marty Rathbun, or Rathbun, not Marty. I’m not on a first name acquaintance with him like so many others are.

        • Spackle Motion

          Interesting bit about your preference in referring to him as “Marty Rathbun” when your previous sentence refers to him as “Rathbun”. I’m sure he’s a nice guy and worthy of your friendship.

          This is not my argument.

          His actions, both past and current, and his words are constantly in conflict. No one is perfect, but recall when he preached his ‘new’ discovery regarding Scientologists’ “attack, never defend” reaction to cognitive dissonance (in that they respond with brutal, quick, and spiteful ad homs). Then, in the same post he fails to admit that he espouses this VERY BEHAVIOR on his blog (he not only degrades honest questions that make him uncomfortable, but his responses contained many ad homs) is simply absurd.

          In my opinion, Rathbun struggles more than most to shed his cult identity because in doing so he will have to face some very ugly truths about himself and his actual crimes. He does this in a public forum, which may be good for those trying to get out but but it adds to his growing credibility problem for many of us ‘never-in’ folks.

          • Elar Aitch

            The public nature of his decompression also acts as an impediment as he is forced to rethink positions he has held very publicly, and as you indicate, defended relentlessly..

            I was encouraged that Marty was coming out of cult-think but recent posts seem to be a 180 degree turn.

            Ode to L Ron Hubbard anyone? (cuh-ringe)

      • Mooser

        Seropuys;y, take a look at Marty’s last three postings. He uses words very, very carelessly, and I hate to say it, but a lot of his phrasing is redolent of Hubbard. He also has a real problem with the word “evidence”, too.

        • Spackle Motion

          Agreed.

          • Mooser

            Thanks, Spackle. I hesitated to talk about Marty’s posts, but as other people were discussing it, I chimed in. I’m glad to hear you agree. I thought I was out there all alone in questioning his posts.

      • Mooser

        “I think it is possible that by simply reading and contemplating the
        three recommendations that I have made in this introduction any
        individual is capable of graduating from Scientology in a positive
        sense.”
        Marty Rathbun “Awakening, Part 3″

        Man, that sounds a whole lot better than merely “escaping” from Scientology, and then a long, dreary “decompression”. How can you put down a guy who can offer us “graduating” instead of merely escaping or quitting, and then healing from whatever damage there is?

        • Once_Born

          Well, like Hubbard, Marty toiled through years of demanding research, and discovered a process that would save other people all that suffering….

          Oh… yes… er… I see what you mean.

          Maybe that kind of mistake is a consequence of an enduring Scientology mindset.

          • Mooser

            “Maybe that kind of mistake is a consequence of an enduring Scientology mindset.”

            Oh no, not if you’ve “graduated”! That get’s rid of it, one, two, three. See Marty’s “three recommendations”!

        • Mooser

          Man, I don’t know about you, but if I was trying to untangle my life from, and heal the damage, all the things that people right here have told us about after escaping from Scientology, and I read that nonsense from Marty, I’d wanna paste him one.
          Like it’s just a little adjustment in outlook, and those three books will fix it for “any individual” “In a positive sense” Gosh, that “any individual”, doesn’t that just reek of Hubbard? He does stuff like that over and over, throws out gran,…well, let me see if I can’t actually quote a few.

          “More than thirty years of research has demonstrated rather conclusively
          that the average human being when connected to a galvanic skin response
          detection device (generic name for a Hubbard Electro-psychometer)
          routinely registers presentiment of about five seconds”

          Thirty years of research, but not one footnote? Okay and oh, the oily Hubbardness of that “average human being” (besides not meaning a goddam thing).

          What is never permitted to be recognized( in Scientology upper levels Ed.) (which an unmolested or nurtured intuition would easily perceive) is that it is the process of exercising intention across distance – and communicating telepathically – that hones intuitive powers.”

          Yes, sir, that good old action-at-a-distance, and telepathy. Okay.

          “I have seen evidence of people becoming better at communication,
          problem solving, personal responsibility, handling of upsets, and moving
          out of fixed conditions through application of these constructs.
          Sometimes they even achieve alleviation of psychosomatic disabilities
          along the road.”

          “I have seen evidence of….” Oh, good for you. Better not show it to anybody else! All that evidence for Scientology doing those things, I mean. Or are you calling Marty a liar?

          “That is, the meter (E-meter, Ed.) reads on average 5 second prior to the subject
          being provided with a concept to respond to. This research has been
          performed on people taken off the street, with no previous psychic or
          spiritual training or study. It has been conducted applying exacting
          scientific standards.”

          Gosh, reads five seconds prior to the question! If only Hubbard knew what he really had in the e-meter! A clue to the world five seconds into the future. “Applying exacting scientific standards”, too!

        • Spackle Motion

          Being a master at spin comes with the burden of being careful not to contradict yourself.

          (i.e. creative semantics are fickle friends)

  • And I don’t rent cars!

    This may seem superficial but I’m glad Ryan Hamilton had another website built specifically for Narconon claims. As much respect and admiration I have for him and no matter how much I loved his hotshot Hambo site, this new website will have more appeal to future clients who might have been a little too traumatized, upset, and desperate for help to appreciate the style of humor on his other site. Ryan Hamilton is quickly becoming a developing a niche for himself and I wish him the very best with his career and much success for his clients.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Narconon:
    If you want to help bury the beast, David Love has a manuscript that needs publishing.
    A Narconon-specific book would be a great addition to the arsenal and to the library.

    David needs funding to put this out there:
    http://www.gofundme.com/86w72c

    • Peter

      He can self publish via Amazon’s CreateSpace.com for very little monies. Lots of help to do it is included, especially if one uses the CS “community”, already published authors willing to help at no charge. Terrific bunch.

      • David Love

        Than you!

        • Once_Born

          And Lulu http://www.lulu.com/gb/
          They can provide both eBooks and ‘print on demand’ dead tree versions.

        • Baby

          Bunker has your back David!

        • OrangySky

          David, I would also consider the methods or indie pubs used by the other memoirists who post here sometimes – Marc Headley, Jefferson Hawkins – and also how they protected themselves. Also publishers with balls like Silvertail.

        • richelieu jr

          The beauty of an ebook is that once it’s out there, there’s no putting the genie back in the bottle. It kind of takes some of the motivation out of suing you into submission, as the book still gets out..

          …there is still their vindictiveness, and the fact the that lying blob of fat Hubabrd said they have to, and he’s always right, of course…

          • Mooser

            For instance, Barefaced Messiah was always available on the web, even when the publishing wrangles were going on.

        • Betsy

          DL, several of the good books by escapees were self-published. I’ll bet you could get info from the authors…as well as info about what to do about CO$ efforts to prevent you from publishing. Marc Headley and Amy Scobee both did great self-published books, if I’m not mistaken (which I frequently am.) I really really really want you to get your story out there.

          Ooops, sorry, Orangy Sky already had this info out for you. But I STILL really, really want you to publish your story.

        • DamOTclese2

          Good luck on that project.

  • Jimmy3

  • Baby

    Laura’s computer .. ( PS have I stated lately how much I Loathe this Cult?)

    • http://www.misstia.com/ Miss Tia

      They don’t have the fucking rank to look at her computer! :)

    • joan nieman

      I think the request to covet her property is insane. Since when do you tamper with someone’s property under a court order? I am appalled.

    • Betsy

      Baby? You HATE this cult? OMG, I didn’t know that! (LOL). You should make your feelings clearer in the future. This made me temporarily feel like having breakfast again, thanks!

      • Baby

        H.A.T.E. breakfast again.. All right Betsy! ha

    • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

      You suck. That’s why ;)

  • Pierrot

    Stats Thursday already, as expected we have many new entries.
    Do what you can and come back later for more, every little bit helps.

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448495

    Thank you Tory Christman and John P.
    They agree that our efforts are worthwhile.

    Your doubts are VALID. Call 1-866-XSEAORG
    FREELOADER Debt is legally UNENFORCEABLE. Call 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty Baby

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      for safety

      BTW, of course your efforts are worthwhile! Do not doubt it nor second guess it for a minute! Keep up the good work and thank you, Pierrot,

      • Pierrot

        Thanks the Car, it is not about me, it is an endorsement by John P & Tory for the efforts of the WHOLE TEAM,

    • EnthralledObserver

      Your efforts are certainly worthwhile… it is $cientology’s efforts I believe are not. ;)

      • Pierrot

        Thanks EO, I was interpreting John P. and Tory’s comments as a encouragement for the WHOLE RED-X Team, not me personally.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      Red-X Brigade – playing havoc with stats for the $ciloons.

      Done, I do love the blues on a Staturday.

    • TheCat’sKnees

      Thanks again for linking to this – it’s a nice break in my day to red x.

      Also, for those who haven’t gotten into it yet, it’s a fantastic window into what the local orgs are doing these days, and hilarious to boot (sometimes).

      My favorite observations today were the “Stop getting taken advantage of” (http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cls/4436767202.html) and the fact that at least two different orgs have “for more information contact ____” but NO PHONE NUMBER. Wonder if they’re just that daft or if they have stopped putting up phone numbers so the intrepid and dedicated WWP searchers couldn’t run a phone number search to identify all their postings at once.

      • Pierrot

        Thanks for your acknowledgement and your team work.

        • TheCat’sKnees

          Thank you and all those of you who put these together! You post, we click!

        • lucille austero

          Yes, thank you!

      • aquaclara

        You have to love the irony in these messages.

        • Robert Eckert

          If you’re the type of person who is easy prey for con jobs, man of man do we want to talk to YOU!

          • aquaclara

            You have to love when subliminal messages are written so that they aren’t even subliminal.
            It’s more like superliminal. NSITAW. (Not sure if that’s a word).

            • Robert Eckert

              It is now!

    • IASREG

      Ocala Narconon referral ad updated about an hour ago…

      http://ocala.craigslist.org/com/4407475471.html

      • aquaclara

        “We don’t just get people off drugs. We bring them back to life and give them the knowledge, tools & life skills to live a productive, successful, drug-free life.

        … We will refer you to a licensed provider with a 100% compliance score on Florida State inspections. This program gets stellar results, saves lives, and reunites families.”
        Especially given today’s features, this needs to go away. I can’t find a single part of this that is true.

    • Betsy

      Mr. P, thanks as always. Yesterday when flagging I was particularly offended by ads saying “Help the Ill and Injured — no License necessary!” Just was Tom C. was telling us when he said that the only one who could help at an accident would be a Scientologist. Gag. Touch assists replace medical attention.

      Also even more ads claiming to offer ESL classes…which of course target people whose English may not permit them to read internet articles about CO$. Let’s get these OFF!

      • Pierrot

        Betsy, thanks for your kind words and your good work.

      • Once_Born

        I once came across an advert which read “Karate Instructor required – no experience necessary.”
        What could possibly go wrong..?

      • Mooser

        The ad which got me was a Sci. ad on my local Craigslist touting L Ron’s abilities as a (get this) marriage counselor!! That one got not only flagged, I sent a rather crisply worded reply mentioning, well, a lot of stuff, being that I’ve got Barefaced Messiah nearly memorized. I never heard back from Sci.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Is it possible this strategy could backfire for Narconon? I am hoping there are docs on her computer that might otherwise be problematic in entering into record, but now that sci lawyers have opened up a potential can of worms, they might not like what shows up on their line, get hooked, and sink their own boat.

    • Michael Hobson

      The Laura Decrescenzo case is entirely seperate and disrelated to the Narconon lawsuits.

      • joan nieman

        I think THDNE was speaking generally Michael.

    • joan nieman

      One could only hope.

      • Qbird

        yes joan, my thoughts as well…

  • Ms. B. Haven

    Good Morning OSA!
    Here’s a hot tip to pass on to the powers that be. Instead of using front groups and front groups for front groups, and front groups for front groups for front groups (e.g. Narconon > Fresh Start > “neutral internet recruiter or pitchman”) to make money for scientology, just cut to the chase. How about just proudly and confidently proclaiming that scientology has the ONLY workable methods to rehabilitate those folks who are addicted to the wide array of harmful substances that are plaguing mankind? When word gets out that this “tech” works 100% of the time on 100% of the people if applied standardly per KSW you won’t be able to hold back the stampede. You won’t spend a dime on advertising or lawyers. In fact, the only outside professionals that you will be seeking out will be architects and contractors to build the new facilities to satisfy the overwhelming demand for services. People like Ryan Hamilton would have to resort to ambulance chasing to make a living and bloggers on the fringes of the internet would have to do something else with their free time. In fact, you would be doing me a HUGE favor, because if these goddamn bloggers on the fringes of the internet would go away, that would cure my addiction to reading this stuff.
    PLEASE consider this plea for help and pass on this tip. I’m not trying to put you guys out of a job either, there are plenty of other hats to wear. With the droves of ‘raw meat’ flooding into the Ideal Orgs for services, there will be plenty of work to do for the next billion years or so it takes to clear this sector of the galaxy.

    • OrangySky

      You are NAUGHTY, Mrs. B! Oh, the irony!

    • richelieu jr

      signed,
      L. Ron Hubbard, esq.

    • http://mncriticalthinking.com/ Chris Shelton (Galactic Patrol

      If only it actually worked, this would be a swell idea. There’s just one little problem….

    • Betsy

      Such good advice, Ms. B! When I read the legal thing above, every time I got to a Scibot-claim that Elron was a “humanitarian” I had to stop and press my temples and think about kittens for a minute.

      By the way, I saw that you had responded to Mike Rinder’s post today…what’s GAG? (Sorry, I am a never-in, really old, and have the memory of a may fly.)

      • Robert Eckert

        “GAG II” is Mike Rinder’s way of mocking “GAT II” (Golden Age of Technology)

      • KingofSweden

        In my mind GAG means “Golden Age of Garbage.”

    • DamOTclese2

      I think they actually tried that early on and found that victims did not hand over their money knowing up front that it is Scientology they’re buying. Their early years they sold the fraud as Scientology, they quickly learned they needed to hide the fact since nobody was stupid enough to buy.

    • Jgg2012

      Just show us ONE perfect clear and the matter will be settled.

      • And I don’t rent cars!

        New “tech” alert!

        Dear Leader, COB has developed the tech to create “Insta-Clear” (YS-COB-COCK PL # 2319) or, as reported on http://scientology411.wordpress.com/category/satire/ – “One Stop Clear.”

        “Through exhaustive research Mr. Miscavige found that by donating money and moving up in sufficient status one can blow the mass which comprises the reactive bank. The exact mechanism involved is the cause and effect relationship which exists between two comparably sized masses in our two terminal universe. Thus by shifting enough mass (money, stocks, real estate, etc) to ideal org and IAS campaigns one subsequently “realizes he has been unknowingly mocking up his reactive mind all along and ceases doing so thereafter” which is of course the Clear Cognition [...] Thanks to the capable guidance of our ecclesiastical leader Chairman of the Board RTC, LRH’s vision has finally been fully realized and world clearing is now within reach in our lifetime. This represents a stellar achievement in the history of our money-making scam religion and we invite all to go into their closest ideal org with cash and credit cards in hand to purchase their instant rocket-ride to the miraculous state of Clear!”

        So will that be cash, credit, title to your house, pension fund, or lap dance?

  • I.HateCo$

    Lazy Lurker…don’t post often but have time …. I hadn’t heard Tony’s Celebrity news about TC and LP until the Bunker. I love this blog! Was this on ET or one of those other stupid entertainment shows. I liked what Courtney Cox said on Letterman this week about the stare down of scientologists. Check it out on YouTube. Why didn’t we see THAT late night cut on the CBS Morning Show or one of those other (stupid) morning shows! God I hate TV. Sorry had to vent. Now we have scripted “NEWS” in the 21st century. Remember when our news had news about THIS COUNTRY? I do not understand why CO$ isn’t in the NEWS?? I could go on and on about the abuses, but we Bunkerites already know them. Love ALL of you!

    • Baby

      Hi Hate Co$ … welcome lazy lurker.. I know what you mean…I would expect this shit to be all over the news..It is getting better. They are Stealing more from Tony!

      It is better than it used to be. Thank God, but I would love to see nightly informative pieces ..Tony has a Face for TV! ( Woo Hoo..)

      • EnthralledObserver

        Tony Ortega on t.v. – hubba, hubba! ;)

      • joan nieman

        Oh yes he does Baby! He is so articulate in interviews he has done. Tony excels with reporting all factual information. He doesn’t show bias or subjecting. Facts. Clear and concise.

        • Baby

          Absolutely Joanie.. xo

  • Patty Moher

    Re: Another Narconon Lawsuit!

    How sweet it is!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Checked email?!

    • RMycroft

      One of these days… BANG, ZOOM! Straight to the moon!

      • OrangySky

        Straight to the moon – OR, Target 2!

        • RMycroft

          So long as there’s a Narconon Crater, it doesn’t matter where. (Gilman Hot Springs would be nice.)

          • Betsy

            Supposedly there’s a crater on the dark side of the moon named for Jack Parsons. I vote for THERE.

      • richelieu jr

        Straight to the Van Allen belt, baby!

        Where you’ll be treated to several days of balmy vacation time (so toasty this– and every!– time of year!) before zooming off to your… Train trip around Venus!

        That’s right, Alice! No danger of getting run over, because you’ll be on your very own locomotive on your way to a special alcohol and glycol spa-treatment complete with 3D Movie on Jesus!

  • Zack Comstock

    Hey Ralphie boy, Va Va Va VOOOOOOM!

  • PRenaud
  • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Natalia 2.0

    Does anyone know under what context Laura brought up her computer? I doubt her lawyer would have let her say anything that would lead any reasonable person to call it into evidence. Sending Bunker love and support, Laura <3 Just remember, they are crazy and you are sane.

    http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/save-your-life-and-don-t-touch-my-computer.png

    • Jimmy3

      They were asking about her internet activity, specifically about what anti-Scientology websites she had visited. (Attached screen caps from the relevant portion of the motion)

      • Jimmy3

        You suck disqus …

        • Jimmy3

          And then she goes on to mention the second laptop on page 11 of the scribd document.

        • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Natalia 2.0

          Thank you, Jimmy 3!

      • aquaclara

        In May of 2012. I mean, really. Give it up, cult.

  • ze moo

    The attempt to exam Laura DeCrescenzo’s old computers should be doomed, doomed I tell you. The first half of the clam pleading resurrects the arguments about statue of limitations that the appeal court has already answered. That question appears (to a non-lawyer like me) to be some smoke and mirrors that have nothing to do with the search the old computers motion. They ask for nothing specific from the old computers, but want to use any info found to challenge the already decided statue of limitations question. Just another time waster and fodder for another appeal. I hope the judge tells them to pound salt.

    Ryan Hamilton found another plaintiff for the NarCONon sweepstakes, good for you. The bait and switch and fraud seem to be very easy to prove. I shall frost a cake and get the punch bowl ready. I am waiting for the late night ‘have you been defrauded at a NarCONon’ TV ads. I see a growth industry, albeit a limited one. What fool insurance company would insure a NarCONon now?

  • Sherbet

    OT: I got an email from Pete Griffiths asking for my address so I could get my T-shirt and other stuff for the Anti-Sci conference in May (I won’t be attending, but I contributed). I sent it to Pete…but I just want to be sure it’s a legit and secure request. Anybody get the same request from Pete?

    • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Natalia 2.0

      Such a smart Sherbie

      • Sherbet

        Not so smart, Nat, since I already sent the information along before I checked with the Bunkerites. :-)

        • http://scientoonery.tumblr.com/ Natalia 2.0

          I know the feeling “Sender’s remorse” lol.

          • Sherbet

            Ha!

    • TheCat’sKnees

      I have not yet, but that’s a normal thing when you have rewards from a crowdfunded campaign. When I supported the TomKat Project’s LA trip, I got the same request for an address from the producer (and got my signed poster, yay!). I’ve had emails with Pete and he seems great :)

      • Sherbet

        Thanks, ‘Knees. I’m about 99.9% sure it’s OK, but scientology makes me so leery with their vindictiveness.

    • Qbird

      Sherbet. Pete posted on yesterday’s TO article (4 hours ago) – right up at the top when set on newest.
      Perhaps ask him yourself, yes?

      • Sherbet

        Oh! I didn’t see it Qbird. Thanks.

    • noseinabk

      I never check this email account so thanks for the heads up. Funny, as a never in, that I had email from Pete and Mark Bunker.

  • valshifter

    Yeah I just shared the link to Hamilton’s website on my Facebook page, is a quick way to spread the news, somebody knows somebody that knows somebody that can sue Narconon, I just hope dear leader wont oppose to the “SHARE button” and will try to sway Facebook, to delete altogether the share button or else.

  • Mark

    I hope Laura DeCrescenzo’s old computer is soemthing along the lines of an Amstrad PCW – looked a bit like a sideways Apple Mac, but a lot cheaper, with oblong floppy disks originally meant to fit in Japanese envelopes. That might stymie the rapacious bastards. Meanwhile, back at Narconon (refresh):

    • Espiando

      I’m hoping for an Andy Warhol Edition Amiga, the one that used a disc format that Commodore apparently abandoned before full release:

      http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27141201

      Then again, I’m an old Amiga owner and partisan, and I’d love to see Laura be the same.

      • Mark

        It wasn’t the disk, but the file, Espi: I seem to remember that ‘Aegis Images’ saved stuff in a format that almost nothing else could read, but Aegis was what they bundled with Amigas. I preferred ‘Deluxe Paint’ – until the superb ‘GIMP’ came along – it’s still going strong today as a PC & Mac program and still capable of reading .iff and .ilbm files!

        • Espiando

          Yeah, I forgot about Aegis being bundled with the 1000s. My first Amiga was a 2000, and by that time Commie got a clue or two in terms of software.

          I just want to see the Scilons stymied by something they’ve never acknowledged: the advance of technology.

    • aquaclara

      You brought out all the troops! :)

      • Mooser

        All the troops? Where’s Pegamoose?

  • richelieu jr

    The ‘Butterfly Effect”:

    A fat mythomaniac flaps his beak in California and 50 years later Hundreds of kids lose their college educations, a fat actress spouts of nonsense, and 100 attorneys get rich as mail orders od black dildos spike bizarrely in poularity.

  • http://askanex.wordpress.com/ Derek
    • Mark

      Jings, crivens and help ma boab! It’s ‘Fearless Leader’ (looks suitably miffed – maybe at being booted off Gumtree?).

      • Espiando

        And his eyes are closed in real life as well as in their pimp flyers. Can’t be the sun in them. It’s Edinburgh. There hasn’t been a sign of sunlight there since its first occupation 2300 years ago.

    • valshifter

      wow, the whole picture is creepy, looks like a scene from attack of the zombies, two creepy zombies trying to lure you into a dark and empty building, the lady passing by refuses to make eye contact with them, the sign is pointing to a dark alley where they plan to eat your brain.

  • valshifter

    scientology is the defendant in Laura D’s law suit, what gives the defendant the right to do

  • richelieu jr

    The Truth about Psychology, by deifinitely NOT Scientology, starring Stephen Colbert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7_ubh1hZIk#t=56

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      Nice! You can see the early turn of his humor. Or should I say “twist”?

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    I’m sorry, but WTF? The White House and Homeland Security officials speaking at Scientology org in L.A.?

    “Speakers
    also included Dr. Jannah Scot, Deputy Director of the White House
    Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships for the U.S.
    Department of Homeland Security; Scientology Volunteer Minister Alf
    Garbutt;”

    “Lady
    Alicia Hamilton, founder and CEO of The Revelation Network, president
    of PAC RED (Preparation and Awareness for Community Resiliency in
    Emergencies and Disasters) and Red Cross Community ambassador, spoke at a
    disaster preparedness conference Saturday April 12, at the Los Angeles
    headquarters of the Church of Scientology in honor of National Volunteer
    Week.”

    http://www.lasentinel.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12955&catid=80&Itemid=170

    • Sherbet

      WTF, indeed! Does anyone do any research before accepting speaking engagements?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Um, it’s feakin’ Homeland Security, Sherb! Garbutt (heh) is a scientology chiropractor. He lists these group associations on his Linkdn page:

        “Sports Medicine Director of World Organization of Martial Arts Athletes,Commissioner -Citizen’s Commission on Human Rights, Int., International Ambassador- Youth for Human Rights, International, American Chiropractic Association, Past Secretary and current VP of ACA Council
        on Rehabilitation, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Executive Clergy Council advisory board, American Academy of Pain Management”

        • Espiando

          So, member of the LA County Sheriff’s Executive Clergy Council advisory board, huh? And Lee Baca wasn’t S(ing)COHB for the cult. Yeah, right.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Yeah, exactly, and CCHR. And I guess they also didn’t check into what woowoo he promotes and sells in his chiro practice. Or what he preaches from that ACA Council on Rehabilitation:

            The Truth About Antidepressants February 18th, 2014

            “More and more the Chiropractic profession is being targeted to assist with referring patients for pychiatric type drugging. It is vital that you have the correct data in this area. The following video and article links should be of value to your patients’ and family’s safety.”

            http://www.ccptr.org/news/

            • Espiando

              No, the cult front organizations are to be expected. It’s the non-culty thingies that trigger suspicion or question. Like, does the World Organization of Martial Arts Athletes know about Garbutt’s affection for long saunas and large doses of niacin as a panacea? Or does the American Academy of Pain Management (which sounds like a Scilon front and deserves a little investigation) know about Touch Assists?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              That ACA Council website, has Garbutt Garbutt posting two videos by Dr Timothy Scott promotes antidepressants are no better than placebos. It is listed under the category of “Rehab Network News”. Wonder if there’s a connection to Narconon’s veiled rehab referral spidey web?

              I’d like to know if Homeland Security knows How scientologists procure and facilitate and manipulate information, Any information they get their hands on about any unwitting associates or customers. Besides photo ops, do Volunteer Ministers get personal information from any of the disaster victims or non scientology disaster responders when on site?

            • Espiando

              Antidepressants being no better than placebos may be the best thing that any CCHR tool has ever said about them. Guess they had to tone the message down to get the green light from an official ACA website. For some reason, I don’t think the ACA’s credibility would survive a linkage between antidepressants and attempted genocide, like CCHR normally likes to do.

              That would be interesting to find out what the Vulture Ministers obtain from other people. We’ve got a number of Sea Org and Exec Strata Exes floating around, but not many former VMs.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              The Amer Acad Pain Mgmt, not a scientology group per se, but looks like the perfect nest for safepointing. Integrative medicine is code for what used to be called alternative which used to be called holistic. There are, however, board directors and staff that are surgeons and anastheliogists as well. Garbutt and Mimi Guarnari were the only obvious names that popped up.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Garbut is a longtime scientologist. I went to his practice in the mid to late 90’s.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              tks. Just saw his name mentioned in conjunction with Shaw Center, but not sure he actually worked there.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              A lot of chiro’s went through Shaw. Price was one of them I remember. I vaguely remember Garbut, but I don’t think I saw him.

        • Sherbet

          Unfrickin’believable. This is a feather in scientology’s cap, making them look mainstream and legitimate.

    • Captain Howdy

      It’s not so much homeland security as some PC dept. set up to to interact with inner city religious types. The good doctor is a preacher and “Lady” Hamilton is a evangelical nutjob/huckster.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Understood, but it’s still White House Homeland Security speaking at Big Blue. Oh wait, unless…

  • TDA1541A

    The Church of Peeping Toms

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    It is smart of Hamilton to note on his Narconon case website that the IRS has deemed Narconon a Scientology related organization. It is tiresome to hear Narconon repeatedly lie that it is not related. I think it is becoming clearer and clearer that Narconon will be brought down by the numerous lawsuits and rulings against it. It would be better if the government did something to protect people from this scam, but if the doors are nailed shut at the end of the day it doesn’t matter who did it. Notwithstanding, law enforcement doesn’t get a free pass. Narconon scam artists who harmed some and killed others need to be prosecuted, no matter how high up in the church they are. After the convention in Clearwater in May, it is time to start talking to Congress. Imagine if the same type of effort bring used on Craigslist to stop the scammers was deployed daily to reach Congress….

    • Once_Born

      A campaign aimed at congress might do worse that adopt the model of the disciplined and focussed letter-writing campaigns of amnesty international.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Couldn’t find the picture quickly originally posted over at WWP, but one of the floors in the Super Power Building has a hall with signs in front of different offices, like the one for Narconon. And the videos of Miscavige himself bragging about his Narconon this and Narconon that. And the org board charts and policies and diagrams. But I like the IRS’s own confirmation. Sweet.

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Law enforcement needs to be reminded that they are ridiculed brutally when they get found out being charmed by a gala dinner with Tom Cruise (all as a way to start considering the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology a “religion” and give it privileges as such).

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/nov/22/freedomofinformation.religion

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    Lawyers in other jurisdictions will be lining up cases once Hamilton’s website and cases circulate among the legal community nationwide. This is how the tobacco and asbestos litigation started.

    • Missionary Kid

      One can hope.

    • 1subgenius

      There are “only” thousands, at best, Narconon cases, not millions like asbestos or tobacco.

  • DamOTclese2

    $30,000 up front — good bloody gods! These god damned criminals! And yet people who fall for these frauds apparently do not do their homework before forking over their money, they do not get on line and discover that Narconon is a Scientology fraud before handing over their bank accounts.

    The new Hamilton web site is good, we shall all need to link to it and spread the word — and await the filthy criminals suing him for trademark infringement. (smirk) aholes. :)

    What’s also interesting is that Hamilton is getting in as the first in line to bring a minimal amount of justice to Scientology before the inevitable freeze, bankruptcy, and collapse of the entire Narconon fraud nationally. He’s getting first in line to help victims get some or all of the money they were swindled out of back before a Judge finally and inevitably grants the criminal syndicate a bankruptcy stay on further criminal and civil cases.

  • Just Dee

    I just wanted to personally thank Tony for running all the information & lawsuits regarding Narconon. This rehab has hit pretty close to home & I’ll be keeping an eye on what happens with these lawsuits.

    My son-in-law has a special force type of position in NJ. (don’t want to name departments) His sister was caught using heroine & someone higher up in law enforcement told him to take her to Fresh Start. I, unfortunately, found out after the fact. I did direct him to this website, Narconon Reviews site, and Wikipedia – I doubt he bothered to even look., he believed this law enforcement person.

    His sister spent many months at Narconon and no surprise, relapsed after being home for about 1 month. I immediately spoke to my son-in-law about sending her back to Narconon & begged him to research this place. Well, he obviously went back and spoke to this law enforcement person (who has to be pretty high up in order for my son-in-law to take his word.)

    I could gather by my son-in-laws response that the scientology/bigot card was used. He told me that his sister isn’t a spiritual person so it really didn’t matter who is running the “rehab”. It was like banging my head against a wall. So, this time she went to a different Narconon in another state – a worse Narconon than she was at before.

    Thank god she was only there for a few days & then left. She came home recently & I haven’t talked to anyone yet. It’s a fine line trying to get information out when I am up against someone in law enforcement. I sound like a meddling mother-in-law.

    Maybe one day they will see it for themselves. Who knows..But I am anxiously waiting to see how these court cases turn out. I also wonder how many in law enforcement are there? Cause this is pretty messed up. This is also just one persons story, I am sure there are more who don’t speak out or know about it.

    So thanks to Tony & all lawyers that have the nerve to speak out and fight against scientology/narconon.. I really think it will help a lot of people.

    • Jimmy3

      It sounds like you did all you could to warn them, and that’s all anyone can really do in that situation. I hope she gets well.

    • Dr_Orpheus

      Isn’t using the Scientology bigot card admitting that Narconon and Scientology are related?

      • RMycroft

        They play it both ways.
        1. Of course Narconon has no connection to Scientology.
        2. If you’re against Narconon, you’re an anti-Scientology bigot. (Never mind the dangerous junk quackery, fraudulent success rate claims, billing scams, etc.)

        • Dr_Orpheus

          Kind of like how Scientology is a religion when it suits them to be one and not a religion when it works against them.

      • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

        It’s both a dessert topping and a floor wax.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      I’d send them media articles, printed out, with headlines about the Narconon lawsuits and names of those who died in their facilities, maybe clip quotes from the parents whose children died there and how they Now Urge Everyone to Research these outfits Before sending anyone to them!

      I don’t ask my community police department advice on medical issues, and especially not critical and very expensive medical issues, btw. I would print out and snail mail them to this guy. He may still be referring!!

      And I’m just going to say it, you might want to discretely get in touch with the good folks at ReachingTheTippingPoint and privately give them the name of this higher up who is directly referring and refusing to listen to possible alarming red flags. Remember there is a high referral commission, just sayin’. But it sounds like he might have had the dead agent treatment to keep him from investigating himself.

      • Just Dee

        I am a little concerned on what I type here….. I don’t know who the person is who referred my son-in-law. His sister was arrested in a totally different area than where my son-in-law works/lives. Do I think the person who did the referral received the 10% kickback? Yep. I’ll be the first to say, NJ isn’t known as the honesty state. I have a little info and an idea what position “this person” holds but I am between a rock and a hard place, at this moment. Giving more time when I can slowly show my son-in-law more info (like the lawyers website for instance) I hope a light bulb will go off and he will see what has really happened here.

        ETA: I am great friends with his parents. We spend every holiday together as a family. I also really like this girl. She is a single mom. I am no way done with this. I just have to tread lightly. :)

        • aquaclara

          Good luck, Just Dee. You’re doing something good here, even if it’s tough to get people to listen. At some point, something might just click.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Sorry, I just saw this. Check out narcononreviews dot net. My suggestion would be to contact them because they understand exactly what You are going through. You need expert advice and fall back position here. Trying to deal with this organization alone is just never the best idea. Get in touch and see how if there is useful help and assistance or information. If nothing else, you should feel good about your compassion and interest as well as doing the best you can as informed and educated on the issues as you can be.

          Best wishes for the best outcome, but most of all, if no one else has told you this, thank you for everything you have done so far and for caring.

    • Mooser

      New Jersey has “Special Forces”? Who knew?

      • Just Dee

        lol I don’t want to name the department or the type of work, smart ass!

        • Mooser

          Go ahead, call me names. There’s no way I’m gonna talk back to somebody with a relative in New Jersey Special Forces. I’ll probably find my lanes closed for a couple of days. Time for Moosehall to have some traffic problems, eh?

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Good luck. And the thing to keep in mind is that while it’s important to point out that narCONon is nothing but a front for the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology, the problem with sending people there is that the program is dangerous and ineffective.

      So, it’s very useful to point out that narCONon lies about its links with the Co$, but (sadly) there’s a lot more to which one can reasonably object.

      • Just Dee

        Thanks Jens, I did try to tell him that there is NO therapy by certified therapists (she will relapse without it) people died, their ” technicians” were caught trading drugs for sex – you name it, I said it. I don’t think he believed me because it sounded so outlandish. But all he has to do is look for himself. He chose to take another’s word. I won’t give up, but I am going to have to throw the research in his face for him to see at this point.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    Yet another Narconon lawsuit, Xenu be praised.

    Let’s celebrate with a little Red-Xing
    Death by a thousand cuts to the Evil Clampire
    Tick Tock Tick Tock

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448390

    ty ap

  • Mrs. V.

    Lots of reading today. I’m wondering if I read this right in the Voiculescu v. Narconon Complaint: “Defendant
    DOES 1 through 50, inclusive, whether individual, corporate, associate , or otherwise
    are unknown to Plaintiff, who therefore sues these Defendants herein under fictitious
    names. When their true names and capacities
    are ascertained, Plaintiff will amend this complaint by inserting their true
    names and capacities herein.” Does that mean that for whatever reason (probably because scientology, narconon and all of its other affiliates are shady frauds) that the plaintiff’s are having a difficult time trying to deduce the legal name of the facility that they’re suing?

    • DamOTclese2

      It keeps the door open to add the specific names of specific Scientology criminals to the complaint as they are uncovered during discovery. This is common among lawsuits against companies and corporations, criminal enterprises where the specific names of people who committed the crimes against the plaintiff are not known but need to be specified as they are discovered, it’s not unique to the Scientology crime syndicate.

      • Mrs. V.

        Got it. Thank you.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    I’m waiting for the late night “Have you or any of your family been to a Narconon facility? Call now, you may be eligible for thousands of dollars in damages for bogus treatment and fraud!”

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      and a spidey referral web presence for victims of Narconon, just like Narconon. heh

    • Missionary Kid

      One of the few times I wouldn’t mind a commercial like that.

  • BigRolly

    Got a question: Did Marthy Rathbun and wife settle with C of S?

    • Sarah James

      Sad to think we would be the last to know if that happened :-(

      • BigRolly

        DM just filed an appeal. Seen from a C of S view, it doesn’t make much sense settling before the appeal is decided…

      • Michael Hobson

        You are mistaken. There would have to be an Judge-approved Motion to Dismiss which would show up on the docket and be entered into the records – regardless of whether the settlement terms were confidential. If there were such a motion, Tony would have posted a copy of it here as he has posted copies of so many other filings in this case.

        *I am not a lawyer*

    • Michael Hobson

      That would be in the court records for the case – although the exact terms of such a settlement would not. If that were to happen, Tony will most likely post about it that same day.

      • BigRolly

        How do you know?

        • Michael Hobson

          Because litigants in a civil trial may not end the trial without a Motion to Dismiss approved by the Judge – which would be in the court records and (for this particular court) would show up in the online docket. There is none such at this time.

          Tony has been following the court filings and has been very consistent about posting breaking news updates in this case almost immediately.

          *I am not a lawyer*

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      What prompted you to wonder, I wonder?

      • Just Dee

        I am guessing, because it was mentioned earlier, it’s because Marty is now saying scientology is a religion?

        • BigRolly

          He flipped-flopped around quite a bit. Originally, he consider SCN are religion. Then it seemed he changed and now he is back again to what he said in the beginning.

          • Mooser

            Rolly, I think Rathbun has a hard time saying what he means, and what most of it really means is “Wow, did I really waste all that time and effort on something worthless?” and avoiding, at almost any cost, the answer.

            • Mooser

              Here’s a good example; Marty says: ”

              I have seen ample evidence both from within its organizations and from
              without them that scientology is workable to the degree one believes in
              it. It works when one believes that it will. It does not work when one
              does not believe that it will. It is just like any other religion in that regard
              .”

              So while Marty Rathbun spent oh, 35 years or whatever it was in the service of Scientology, he learned a lot about how all the other religions operate?

              Or did he just learn to sling bullshit, and by now does it reflexively, knowing when he can get away with it? Oh well, he’s The Graduate.

      • BigRolly

        He once told the SP times that most of Scientology works. Later he changed. Did he now change back? I am confused.

        • BigRolly

          Another theory: Marty’s pro-SCN posting are done to sway DM to settle??????

    • Phil McKraken

      Marty Rathbun is not suing Scientology, but his wife is. It is she that would settle, not them.

      • BigRolly

        Technically, but practically… Anyway, did she (they) settle?

        • BigRolly

          Or how do you explain his last posting?

          • Mooser

            Big Rolly, did you take a look at the three posts preceding his post on Scientology and religion? Read them, and then you can decide whether anything about the last posting needs to be explained. I don’t think so, they are all of a piece.

    • GalacticGreg

      No. The case goes on.

      • Mooser

        The case is a long way from being settled (although either side could end the suit at any time, but in different ways). In fact, I don’t think it has gone to civil trial yet, and what we see now are the preliminaries being extended as long as Sci. can draw them out.

  • screwsci

    Regarding Scientology being a religion…well Nerium (a fast growing network of MlM mindbots) works if you believe in it…

  • http://batman-news.com Joe Mama

    The day I landed at Narconon in 2004, the Ethics Officer (yes, Narconon has an org board exactly like an org, and is run exactly like it) was thrown out for relapsing on crack during lunchtime. This was the start of a freaking unbelievable ride to which these stories get wilder and wilder.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      We love being taken for wild rides here in the Bunker. Should we wear helmets and is their a height minimum? Care to share? Oh crap, ethics officers on crack. Now there’s a new nightmare.

      [is there a musical theme to this ride, just wondering]

    • Jimmy3

      Crack before 5pm? SMDH. But please share more of the ride..

      • Elar Aitch

        Some Mothers Do Have-em?

        • Jimmy3

          Shaking My Damn Head.
          But I like your guess more that what I meant.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    $cientology: Hubbard shoulda called it Criminology, plagiarism never bothered him.

  • DamOTclese2

    These Scientology bastards need better lawyers. Hey, Scientology! Give this guy a call! (Refresh for image)

  • TDA1541A

    “One Was Stubborn” by L. Ron Hubbard. Performed live at the Alex Theater Glendale, CA September 4, 2010.

    Performed by R.F. Daley, John Mariano and Noelle North. Directed by R.F. Daley.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8WeJD3OxyI

    • TDA1541A

      Chuck Beatty

      April 24, 2014 at 7:55 am

      The 1940 Hubbard short story, “One Was Stubborn” has a cast of characters including an evil cult leader.

      The followers learn to as-is the world, and the main character finds
      himself ultimate in a position of almost God, being able to create
      reality in front of himself mentally.

      This must read Hubbard 1940 short story to me shows the crossover
      point of LRH the prolific mediocre pulp fiction writer, to LRH founder
      of Scientology “religion” when in the early 1980s in one of LRH’s final
      broad briefing issues, LRH ED 339R Int, LRH waxes to staff about
      bringing the whole universe back to “native state.”

      On the religion issue, my reading of all that Hubbard wrote, my alpha
      for him is “One Was Stubborn”, and omega is LRH ED 339R Int on “native
      state”, and for those two writings, picking those out, give the widest
      look at what I thought he thought he was doing here!

      And now he’s supposeldy off doing the OT running program around a star.

      And his “legacy of tech” is being continued, Shelly Miscavige is even
      seeing to that, I think she and David Miscavige think that LRH’s CST
      wishes were that important.

      I think Scientology for more academic reasons that have been gone over here, will qualify as a religion.

      The core spiritual therapy part of Scientology and exorcism parts make it similar to religions.

      The obnoxious irreligious administrative and other general policy of
      Scientology make it irreligious, it’s too much corporate business-like,
      etc, etc, modern marketing, corporate shell game finance system, etc.

      But the auditing is past life exploration, the OT 3-7 is exorcism,
      and enough long range Hubbard goals about Native State, or power on the
      8th dynamic type of stuff, and even if one admits in full Hubbard’s sci
      fi pulp past, “One Was Stubborn” pretty simply lays out what a Native
      State population would be arriving at spiritually.

  • Ruby Grapefruit

    Gotta love the cherch demanding computers to be turned over while they’ve been destroying evidence like crazy for years now.

    • Sarah James

      They did not turn over evidence that Laura’s side requested, and the judge ordered, but they have the gall to demand her hard drive.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    We have come for your Craigslist ads.
    Turn ‘em over.
    We’ll give ‘em back if we can find 1 redeeming feature in them.
    Don’t hold your breath, Mr. Poison Pompous Pope.

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448390

    ty ap

  • nottrue

    whoops………its all yours scientology

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    I made a post over at Marty’s blog in response to his post yesterday. I don’t know if it will pass moderation, but I am going to put it here too because I think it is something I should say here.

    In response to http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/scientology-2/#comment-301956

    Michael Leonard Tilse | April 24, 2014 at 1:40 pm | Reply

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Hi Marty,

    I respect you and the journey you have undertaken with regard to scientology. I know how difficult it can be.

    I have to respectfully disagree with you about the religious nature of scientology. Simply using ‘belief’ as a litmus test does not give me useful insight. I believed that “Heck Harper” was a real cowboy when I was little. He wasn’t. He just played one on childrens shows.

    There are lots of things we believe in without verification: The honesty of politicians, the inherent value of a dollar, the blindness and impartiality of the justice system. The relief I subjectively feel when I face a hard truth is a belief. There may be no basis for that relief than I believe it. While I might feel spiritual aspects from beauty and kindness, that does not make them a religion, even for me.

    I feel to evaluate scientology with regard to religion, we have to evaluate the intent of the creator of scientology. If you read “Bare-faced Messiah” by Russell Miller he documents many times over many years to various people leading up to dianetics various versions of the statement: “Writing for a penny a word is stupid. If you want to make a million dollars, start a religion.”

    That is pretty clear. Also hubbard’s letter to Helen O’Brien where he asks her about using the “religion angle.”

    So I do not think hubbard intended to be spiritual or religious, he just intended to use that “angle” to make money and “Smash my name into history.”

    I know people ascribe spirituality to scientology. Many feel that their auditing was a spiritual experience. In the past I had thought so too.

    Perhaps all religions start as a con game, someone trying to present themselves as someone wise and spiritual and holy because that creates a ready pool who present themselves to be taken advantage of.

    Over the years as others take over a thriving practice left by the original founder, the real exploits and truths and intentions recede into the mists of history and a religion becomes whatever it’s leaders say it is and what the mislead believers believe. They assert “This is a religion!” and lo, it becomes so.

    hubbard managed to compress a centuries long process for most scams that turn into a recognized religion into only a few short years. And almost succeeded in concealing his lies and fabrications.

    But, thanks to Gerry Armstrong who was driven by his faith in hubbard, ironically, we have many documents that show that hubbard was a lier, a conman a thief and many other discreditable adjectives.

    We know that hubbard was insincere in making scientology into a “religion.” We have the testimony. We have even the personal experience, as I did in 1975 and 76 at SFO Fdn where “everybody knew” that the religious angle was just for legal protection. Nod nod, wink wink.

    So much as it might seem appropriate to call scientology a religion, due to some of the beliefs of it’s followers, I think we have to deny it because we know the truth. We have to deny it’s legal protections so it can be made to at least attempt to make people whole by refunding monies and paying damages.

    I applaud your progress.

    Michael

    • Sarah James

      I applaud you Michael.

    • Once_Born

      Perhaps this is a little beside the point, but you have put your finger on something which fascinates me:

      Over the years as others take over a thriving practice left by the original founder, the real exploits and truths and intentions recede into the mists of history and a religion becomes whatever it’s leaders say it is and what the mislead believers believe. They assert “This is a religion!” and lo, it becomes so.

      Scientology is one of the few new religious movements to have to deal with information technology and the Internet. It’s proved harder for it to cover up its origins because (even though it arose in the ’50’s) its history is online for anyone to see and to record.

      I wonder if this is one of the reasons that ‘new age’ beliefs are so diffuse and undemanding. Because new religious movements can no longer suppress their origins, and re-invent themselves.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      Thank you again, Michael, for your lucidity and honesty.
      I concur wholeheartedly.

    • nosce

      The way I see it — He is just filing scio in the same pile as any other religion. He is trying to separate the “belief system” from the dogmatic and tyrannical way in which is currently being managed. The same route has been taken by LDS, the Catholic church and others. Some people pick this and some that and some the other thing. He trying to move people away from “this is the ONLY route out” as do other religions. That is what allowed me to drop it with no problems. I personally do not care much about it. Belief is a personal choice as far as I’m concerned. This is the way I understand it.

      • Mooser

        As I read it, Marty still says that the “study tech” and “lower level auditing” (up til Zenu, I guess) has “benefits” and e-meters measure something.

        • nosce

          I think the “study tech” is actually damaging.

          • Mooser

            Go tell Marty about it. Did you see the list of benefits Marty gives?

            • nosce

              I’m out. I’m done. Have no interes in anything Scientology. I just hope that our justice system will work to the benefit of those that have been wronged by the cult.

    • Captain Howdy

      That’s the bottom lime with Marty & Mike, they refuse to believe that dianetics/scientology was nothing but a scam. They believe that LRH was a very flawed person, but they they can’t get their heads around the fact that Hubbard was making the whole thing up as he went along, and the “tech” is nothing but mumbo jumbo,. Until these people realize that LRH was the flim flam man, they will never be truly free.

      • nosce

        What did it for me was when I learned about how he died. So undignified. A man who had discovered the “answer” and was a real product of his sales pitch would have had a more dignified retirement. Another thing is the fact that he lied about his reseach while in the navy and in the hospital—non of it true.

        • Mooser

          “and was a real product of his sales pitch would have had a more dignified retirement.”

          “nosce” Hubbard was surrounded, in his ‘undignified retirement’ by gorgeous, just-pubescent girls, dressed in naughty-nautical uniforms, who adored him and catered to his every whim. And weren’t (nod-nod, wink-wink) his granddaughters, nuff said?

          And what exactly, do you have planned for your “golden years”?

          • Robert Eckert

            No, in his undignified retirement he was hidden away in a trailer and too paranoid to let more than a handful of people see him or even know where he was anymore.

            • Mooser

              Wasn’t that the time, in the trailer, when Hubbard would let nobody near him except the “Messengers”? As you say, it might have been an earlier time. Anyway, whenever it was, I’m sure Hubbard was sorry to leave his little girls behind.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, there was Pat and Annie Broeker, Sergeant Pflauth (sp?), sometimes Dr. Denk, and that’s just about it. Somebody with better memory than mine might fill in another name.

            • Mooser

              This might be a good place to check I might be thinking of some other period in his life. The important thing, Robert, is that I worked it around to an opportunity to use the “leave his little girls behind” line. Each of us must do what he can.

          • Michael Leonard Tilse

            Yea Robert Eckert is right. He dropped the bevy of beauteous girls when he had to flee into hiding after the 1977 FBI raid. By 1982 or so he was down to just a few personal servants and living under an assumed name.

            • Robert Eckert

              Annie Tidman/Broeker at least was good-looking.

          • nosce

            I said retirement but what I meant was death.

      • TDA1541A

        See “One was Stuborn” It was actually not bad as a play

      • Mooser

        Or is Marty doing it to help others “decompress”? There’s seems to be a large constituency for providing a soft spiritual landing for ex-Scientologists. And you gotta admit, if you are headed for Super-Powers and control over MEST, maybe it is harmful to be told you have to live in the same reality as everybody else. That’s quite a hard landing.

        • nosce

          I think you have it right. I think it is for those who for sooooo many years were certain that they were on the right track only to come to the end of the road after as much as 30 years—and for some, up to millions of dollars spent—it all comes to naught. It might be like learning that you are actually a product of mom’s moment of indiscretion after 45 years.

          • Mooser

            “It might be like learning that you are actually a product of mom’s moment of indiscretion
            after 45 years.”

            Look, “nosce” (if that is indeed your real name) I really wish you would keep my family’s foibles out of this. Anyway, if it kept me from inheriting the insanity (after all, there is no sanity clause!) and pale skin on my Dad’s side of the family.

            • Sibs

              Mooses have pale skin?!

            • Mooser

              As my Father said, towering imperiously over me, and pointing his finger out the door: “Get along, my wayward son, there will be peace when you are gone! There were no antlers in this family until you showed up!”
              “Dad” I wailed, “you can’t do this, I’m serious!”
              “You are serious?” he retorted; “In that case, go find Roebuck and start a store!”

              And so I was debouched onto the unsuspecting world, with no turning back. Home was wherever I hung my head.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Oh, not the “There I was, alone in the wilderness, lost, homeless, with nothing to my name but my antlers” story again.

              At least buy me a drink this time.

            • Mooser

              Yeah, there was no Org out there in the forest, so I had to make it on my own.

            • Jimmy3

              “Home was wherever I hung my head.” That’s a shame, because if home was wherever you hung your hat, and assuming you had a hat to hang, you could hang it and never leave home.

              The Moose You Know

            • 1subgenius

              Papa was a rollin’ stone.

            • Mooser

              Wherever he lay his hat was his home.
              And when he died,
              All he left us was alone.

            • 1subgenius

              I always sing it “wherever he laid his bone was his home”.

            • Mooser

              And there’s a bathroom on the right, but for now, scuse me while I kiss this guy.

            • Mooser

              The important thing is that you do sing it! I always wanted to be a Temptation, and if I couldn’t make the Tempts, I would have been ecstatic to be a “Pip” Oh, the exquisite gestures and steps I would do as I sang wonderful lines like “A superstar, but he didn’t get far” or best of all “I know you will”
              Anyway, I gotta go catch the midnight train to Georgia, which will connect me to the Chattanooga Choo-Choo, All a-bored!

            • 1subgenius

              I am prepared to sing “Music so low you can’t get under it” at the drop of a hat.

              Here’s a not too shabby version of “Papa”.

              Sweet Pea Atkinson on the right, Sir Harry Bowens, center.

              Lyle Lovett has used them frequently.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8P06DVme8U

            • Missionary Kid

              So, your dad stole lines from Kansas?

            • Mooser

              MK, I was raised on robbery.

            • Once_Born

              Wayward?
              In what way?

            • Mooser

              Those mixed marriages are tough, but they work out more than you might think.

          • Mooser

            So you figure that’s Martyy’s job, to guide those poor souls to a soft landing? Well, considering the almost feline speed with which Marty grasps things (how long was he in Sci? and near the top of the heap, too!) and his incredible empathy, he’s just the man for the job.

            • nosce

              The ONLY thing I expressed is my understanding of it. If that is what he wants to do is up to the man. Based on how he has handled the church and their goons, I say he just may do a good job of it, if that is what he wants to do. Me? I’m out.

        • Michael Leonard Tilse

          You know, it is a valid way to provide an attractive exit, something that seems more like what they thought they were getting so it is not an all-or-nothing choice. Trying to provide a transition of some sort does seem to be needed. For some, much more than others. I don’t fault him for that.

          But maintaining a fiction that it is religious does everyone a disservice. It only serves to protect those who are guilty of fraud and other crimes under the false guise of being “a religion.” And it leaves open the door for other opportunists to carry on the fraud with impunity.

          • Mooser

            I’m sorry, what, exactly is Marty “providing” besides a moderated comment section? Seems to me he’s got enough of his own worries. But hey, if he wants to make this kind of sacrifice and provide we can but cheer him on.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              He seems to have provided his stream-of-consciousness thought processes as he comes to terms with it. To some degree, encountering it can be illuminating and helpful. Marty was a long term well known leader in scientology. That has some heft with people who were in during his tenure. His books are an extension of that.

              He also has seemed to provide personal counsel to people who have visited him in Texas, and even the scientology rituals where they think it useful.

              He is engaged in the consequences of his own former commitment. He is doing it publicly and making an effort. I cheer him on in that. Some people take the money shut up and walk away. He hasn’t done that. He has worked with people who are representing his wife in the lawsuit to help fashion probably the most serious legal threat that scientology and David Miscavige have ever faced in civil proceedings.

              Ya gotta love that.

            • TDA1541A
            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Very much irony there. Thank you.

            • Mooser

              “Very much irony there. Thank you.”

              Conflating Carol King’s “You Got a Friend” and Dorsey’s “Precious Lord”? I don’t see any irony, just darned good Gospel music.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              “You better think about the consequences of your actions”

              http://youtu.be/cGXU7268Z50

            • Mooser

              Did somebody say “Aretha Franklin?”

            • Sid_Snakey

              To be fair, it is freedom – freedom to behave pretty much as he damn well likes. That’s why he has such a smug look on his face. That’s what the cloak of religion and money give you in the US of A.

            • TDA1541A

              Hubbard was right

            • Mooser

              Exactly. He is in a heck of a spot, and if he can contrive to do some good out of it, that will be great.

            • TDA1541A

              Something you don’t like and therefor valuable

            • Mooser

              “Something you don’t like and therefor valuable”

              Yup, probably so. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
              But I’ll say one thing: Rathbun is damned lucky it takes registering and a new password to comment on his WordPress blog. If it didn’t, I’d be over there beating on him!

            • TDA1541A

              nice

              I was loosely refering to somebody who said something about finding someone elses opinion abject and would fight for his oponents right to hold the abject opinion.

              Something American political something person

            • GalacticGreg

              aqua’s said ” I am so thankful to see the openness and the sharing here and all over
              that helps newbies progress out faster and easier. While it’s still
              clearly no picnic, there is now help. I like to think that in a few
              years, we’ll know even more about how to help people recover from the
              devastating effects of the cult”

              and a ‘deserving cheer’ for Marty then.

          • aquaclara

            Your comments are wise, Michael. Thank you for sharing them here. The progression of time needed for insights and recovery seems to vary tremendously with each person.

            Seeing things with fresh eyes and a clear head must surely be helped along by seeing others who are further along in the progression, each of them pushing the envelope a bit more for the others, like you’ve done here with Marty.

            Gerry and Jon and Russell and you and Wollersheim and all the others who took the cult on early (either as exes or writers or critics) had it unimaginably hard, with no one else to cushion the hard fall. I am so thankful to see the openness and the sharing here and all over that helps newbies progress out faster and easier. While it’s still clearly no picnic, there is now help. I like to think that in a few years, we’ll know even more about how to help people recover from the devastating effects of the cult and the wrath of The Weasel Captain so the pain is lessened.

            There’s progress with some of the long-termers, and in another couple of years, some people might be ready to fully toss the cult aside for good. We’ll be ready for a good party by then!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Oh that’s another hell to the yeah. Support groups of those who have experienced the same trauma are an integral and dynamic fabric of any recovery process.

            But here’s the rub: Curing scientology trauma by applying scientology to the wound is just wrong, painful and infectious. I may not have lost a truckload of cash, but I suffered physical consequences that carried over my lifeline. The worst of scientology’s destructive shadows that followed me I have to say now were those that left me suspicious and anxious about regular AMA doctors. I didn’t get my diagnosis and begin protocols until late in the game because of just that one carry over. While not desperate like cancer or others, it meant for me that I have to deal with the absolute worst possible conditions and symptoms.

            Bottom line: Scientologists think they are the only real professionals. The truth is that they are amateurs practicing medicine without a license. Those seeking mental health improvement and treatment should seek professional, certified medical professionals.

            A belief in SP’s, PTS, a belief only alternative medical paths lead to the answers, these are just a small turd floating in the toxic brew that has Nothing to do with the spiritual, religion or beliefs. If they’ll be honest, Nothing.

            Spiritual is that moment when tiny, pink wrinkly fingers grab onto yours for that very first magic moment. Spiritual is locking eyes with some greasy haired, pimply kid that your mother would never open the door for but you welcome to your entire world. Spiritual is sharing a joke and hug with a wounded veteran, a baseball game with a bunch of wild and crazy senior citizens or anyone who swims with the dolphins for the first time.

            Religion is someone else’s analysis, orders and dictates on how you should feel, what you should think and what you should do about those personal spiritual experiences.

            Belief is something humans cling to when science is too hard, unavailable, indigestible or inconvenient to the truth about those spiritual experiences. It’s all pretty simple when you’re not trying to selling anything.

            • Mooser

              “Spiritual is that moment when tiny, pink wrinkly fingers grab onto yours
              for that very first magic moment. Spiritual is locking eyes with some
              greasy haired, pimply kid that your mother would never open the door
              for but you welcome to your entire world. Spiritual is sharing a joke
              and hug with a wounded veteran, a baseball game with a bunch of wild
              and crazy senior citizens or anyone who swims with the dolphins for the
              first time.”

              So those things I had heretofore been downgrading as mere human companionship, or just stupid ol’ human love, or family feeling, or feelings of respect and affection and service to the elderly and put under the heading of positive emotional and human experiences generally, are, in reality spiritual! I hadn’t been giving them enough credit.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Semantics don’t mean a hill of beans and rice.

            • Mooser

              Like the difference between “intuition” and “telepathy”? And what “data” and “research” and “evidence” mean? Yeah, just semantics. Well, I don’t need anybody accusing me of being anti-Semantic, so I’ll stop worrying about it. Those kinds of distinctions never did anybody any harm, so why make ‘em?

            • Sarah James

              ” It does not solve the underlying problems; it merely cures the complaints by ending the person’s freedom to complain.”
              Early conditioning to ignore or at least not share your pain, that is hard to do when you are a child. I learned to just live with it. As an adult, at different x’s with different doctor’s I tried to explain a symptom but I just could not make myself clear. I felt bad for trying to explain it and bad for just not excepting it.

          • Mooser

            “It only serves to protect those who are guilty of fraud and other
            crimes under the false guise of being “a religion.” And it leaves open
            the door for other opportunists to carry on the fraud with impunity.”

            Yup, it’s easy to see who much Rathbun cares, since he’s willing to risk that!

        • lucille austero

          Hard to give up that feeling of superiority.

          • Mooser

            “Hard to give up that feeling of superiority.”

            And really, if he helps people to “graduate” from Scientology, I see no reason why he should. Maybe he has earned it.
            I know I couldn’t do it.

            • lucille austero

              These people believe they have found The Meaning of Life, and not Brian’s…what does it take for a person to actually believe they’ve found it? As a never in, this just makes me shake my head…I don’t get it…

            • Mooser

              “..I don’t get it…”

              Fortunately, whether we get it, or not, or understand why a person embraced Sci. or not, we can still feel they shouldn’t be defrauded or abused. I tell you, if my empathy was limited by my understanding, I wouldn’t care about anything, even myself.

            • lucille austero

              Agreed. But then I think of Grant Cardone and it all gets fuzzy again.

            • Mooser

              You know, it is possible to delineate the Scientology ‘losers’ (most of them) from the few who ‘win’ at the Scientology game, make it work for them.
              As infinitely compassionate as we are known to be (like that snowmobiler who didn’t get stomped) I find it pretty easy to be, oh, somewhat less empathetic with the Sci. “winners”

              I try to reserve it for those who got dragged in by family members or thrown into the Sea Org by parents.

            • lucille austero

              Again, agreed.

            • Robert Eckert

              The thing about Rathbun and Rinder (and Debbie Cook, and Heber Jentzsch, or Shelly for that matter) is that they have been both winners and losers.

            • Mooser

              What did they win? A lifetime of more confusion and trouble than a person really needs to have? Okay, maybe they actually got a salary, which for Sci. is really getting somewhere.

            • Robert Eckert

              For a while they were on top of the Scientology world even more than Grant Cardone is right now.

            • GalacticGreg

              yes, way way more than freak-a-zoid Cardon and his prissy wacky wife

            • Mooser

              “For a while they were on top of the Scientology world even more than Grant Cardone is right now.”

              May God preserve me from such victories. Those Pyrenees victories never help anyone.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              In just that one post, you’ve said mountains.

            • Mooser

              Thank you Micheal. People have often told me my head is just like the abbreviation for ‘mountain’. This is no time for false modesty!

            • Mooser

              If Rathbun had spent the same amount of time and effort on an ordinary career, he’d be retired, with some assets, and a pension or retirement investments. And probably a gold watch, too. Instead he’s got a suit.

            • Mooser

              But believe me, let Grant Cardone chase me on a snowmobile, and I’ll know what to do about it!

      • GalacticGreg

        Do you see, or not, that they actually believe that the souls/spirits/thetans of dead space aliens are infested in their bodies and are the source of present time problems? and that those body thetans and clusters must be telepathically addressed, and made to recognize themselves, so that they will then depart?

        I find it so hard to believe that they would still believe that massive delusion implanted by L Ron Hubbturd into his paying customers and Sea Orgre slaves.

        • Jimmy3

          Wait what? What are you talking about with “dead space aliens”? What do you mean

          • Mooser

            I’m just impressed by Hubbard’s ability to “implant” thoughts in people. I can, if I can sow a common interest or benefit, sometimes persuade people, but that “implanting” thoughts, is way beyond me.

            • GalacticGreg

              Here’s how they get beyond you. http://scientologymoneyproject.com/

            • Mooser

              Greg, I have already accepted long ago, that as far as sales go, I’m a good “opener” but a lousy “closer”. I don’t think that’s going to change now.

          • Captain Howdy

            Diatomaceous earth..the only way to get rid of them.

        • Mooser

          “and that those body thetans and clusters must be telepathically addressed,”

          Don’t worry, in his article “Scientology and Intuition” Marty says that e-meter will prevent us from developing our telepathy. Well, it’s “helpful” or something in the lower stages, but in the upper stages, Scientology prevents you from developing telepathy.

          I think he was trying to say that Scientology isn’t as good as it’s cracked up to be. But who knows?

        • Once_Born

          I think Marty, at least, has rejected many of the specific details of Scientology without realising than he retains the magical thinking that sustains belief in in it.

          For example – he recently recommended to his readers the books of a writer of pseudo-science called Hawkins. This person ‘teaches’ that personal consciousness is connected to an all-knowing ‘universal consciousness’. Our personal consciousness is fallible, but the universal consciousness is infallible. Consequently we can become infallible if we communicate effectively with the universal consciousness – and Hawkins reasonably-priced products will teach you how.

          This sounds to me a lot like the reactive/analytical mind, and the possibility of superpowers. Hawkins isn’t plagiarising Hubbard – the ideas are similar because they are both exploiting a universal human need.

          In every generation, there are people want to believe that they can achieve personal power without effort, and there are always gurus willing to pander to this fantasy for money. Hubbard dressed his pitch up as 1950s space opera, Hawkins does a ‘quantum spirituality’ act. they both exploit the same universal need – and credulity.

          What Marty need to do is exchange magical thinking for critical thinking. Then all of the woo-woo, which does not bear close examination, goes away.

          • Mooser

            “What Marty need to do is exchange magical thinking for critical thinking. Then all of the woo-woo, which does not bear close examination, goes away.”

            And then Marty says “Gosh, I guess I’ve spent the last quarter-century deluding myself into assisting others in fraud and crime, may have committed a questionable act or two myself, and couldn’t see it until Miscavige did me the favor of hitting me over the head with how fucked-up he is, and then finally I left, and I still can’t admit that I’m wrong! What does “critical thinking” tell me about myself?”

            That’s not a good spot to be in. Magic helps, and a whole lot, an extraordinary amount, of chutzpah.

            • Once_Born

              I said he needs to. The likelihood that he ever will is very, very low indeed.

              Also, I was trying to understand why he still can’t recognise woo-woo when its staring him in the face, not address his moral shortcomings – although, yes, it make it easier for him to re-establish contact with reality easier if he faced up to what he did in the past.

          • GalacticGreg

            Yes, OB, it looks so for Marty.

            The thing for me vis-a-vis Marty is his support of Mosey and the brilliant soldier he is and will be in fighting the good fight to stop the criminal activity that encompasses the Cult of $cientology Inc.

            • Once_Born

              I’m with you there.

              However, for me, there is another, separate interest.

              As a practical matter, his contribution to his wife’s court case has the potential to restrain the Church and reveal much damaging information about its operation. Although it is not his case, he will surely have a input as to whether on not it goes to judgement, or accepts a settlement. If he sees it though to the end, with her and their child, that deserves respect.

              At the same time, I have an intellectual fascination with the mystery of how some people come to believe completely irrational (and sometimes downright self-contradictory) think. How do these bizarre beliefs come about?

              These two interests do not play well together.

          • Disaffected

            This person ‘teaches’ that personal consciousness is connected to an all-knowing ‘universal consciousness’.

            Substituting one woo-woo subject for another.

            I have the same sentiment as you. Marty has a hard time letting go his core beliefs instilled in him through many years of programming.

        • Disaffected

          The holy and very sacred scripture $cientology is derived from says it all: Astounding Science Fiction magazine. Think I have said enough.

          I find it ridiculous beyond words that people are even debating this “believe/religion” angle when it comes to $cientology —- it is just surreal to me.

          • GalacticGreg

            Yet as a once-in, Dis-a, did you get to the upper levels where you went into the Space Opera of NOTs and all that technique? If so, how difficult is it to drop the delusion with a massive reality check …

            • Disaffected

              Yes… unfortunately I did… and it had costs me more than just money, a hell of a lot more — almost took my sanity.

              The massive reality check your speaking off is a very hard thing. It took me several intermediary steps to shed it off fully… and there are still some days I doubt whether I fully shed it off. That’s how deep this hits in the human psyche.

            • GalacticGreg

              Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, Dis-a. I’m sympathetic to the plight, indeed- you are such a huge help for the commenting community to more fully understand how $cientology-Hubbardthink-Hubbardworld can really hurt a life. Thousands of lives.

              And how difficult it is to recover from Ron’s Long Con.

              Much appreciation for your sharing and your honesty as you fight the good fight, to see the illegal activity of the Cult of $cientology Inc. to cease.

            • Disaffected

              It’s a real sticky mix of hypnotic programming and installing false memories and incidents with real emotional charge that DOES read on GSR devices (such as the e-meter). As you go along you get a false certainty your memory is REAL.

              It is a very sophisticated and subtitle version of the same mechanism used by the parlor hypnotist who can make his hypnotized subject think something really sour (like lemon) tastes as sweet as candy. The subject, while under hypnosis will assert the lemon is the sweetest candy he ever tasted. Of course the audience know its all an illusion, but very real to the subject.

              Same goes for pain and painful incidents run with auditing techniques. Bogus, fabricated incidents, bogus BTs and Clusters but very, very real if you are heavily indoctrinated. The relief felt when ridding these bogus fabricated stuff is also VERY real…

              Hope I am making any sense.

            • GalacticGreg

              Indeed so, Dis-a. Lots of sense.

              The point stressed repeatedly about the e-meter is that it “reads” inividuals’ ‘real’ memories of what happened to them and it “reads” imagined memories, as the imagination can create an entire ‘scene’ that is not true for the individual, but a full scene, completely fiction. The e-meter will “read” that, the same as a true memory.

              That is the key con that Stacy described in her piece on auditing: about “earlier similars”. And that Michael LT recently described with his “horrific past” which was really just his imagination, yet he felt it was real, that he had destroyed civilizations, and felt the guilt of that, for real, in his heart, in his bones.

              This part of $cientology Inc. proudcts bought by each member in their own way is a trauma-inducing mechanism, which controls the member while in, and requires the member to ‘recover’ from the induced trauma once they leave.

              I salute you. And Michael LT. And thdnExist. And Room101. And all the other commenters in the Bunker who are recovering from their sojourn in HubbardWorld.

            • Missionary Kid

              You are making perfect sense. Your insight, while it must be painful to face or reveal, can be markers for those that follow.

            • Disaffected

              One of my most hard to face area’s is the many hours of FPRD I got. Whereas bogus installed memories of painful incidents (to yourself or the many “entities”) is really harming, FPRD or FPRD style auditing (like L10) takes the mind fuck even a level higher still.

              This meddles with and messes up your basic YOU — sounds a bit esoteric but I have no better term to describe this.

              Here is where you can really go downhill fast. You end up thinking you are a unworthy piece of filth, filled with evil intentions towards anything and everything.

              During these sessions I was often regged for more money, and I slavishly donated, Sigh.

            • GalacticGreg

              oh, Dis-a, it saddens me to hear the trauma imparted to $cilon members, all the while they’re paying hundreds of dollars per hour to have their life fucked with mercilessly.

            • Missionary Kid

              They’ve had a long time to perfect the con, they ganged up on you, and they were probably pretty practiced at it.

              It would be easy to feel helpless. The bad news is that they got to you. The good news is you’re out and recovering. You’re in the middle of dealing with the experience.

              Pope Missionary Kid grants you absolution. I have no authority to do that, nor can I really do it, because you are the person who can forgive yourself.

              Remember, they spent a lot of time convincing you, and every other $cientologist that everything is their fault. For you, that would mean that all the false memories and everything that was the result of them. While they set the stage, led you down the garden path, and isolated you from society, then, when they convinced you to follow their lead, knowing it wasn’t true, they maintain that it’s your fault. It isn’t.

              Your posting here is a step in the right direction. Your taking actions like red-Xing are steps to take yourself back. At some time, you will look back and find yourself thinking, “I was involved with that?” as if it was another person.

              Co$ will always disappoint you. It angers you and makes you sad now, but eventually you will face it with ennui and a bit of amusement. You are helping others with your posts, and your insight will be valuable to those working their way out.

            • Baby

              Yes honey..You are making sense. I am so glad you come here for a safe place to land and that you are out. It is a mind f*ck. No question about it. But you are safe here with us.

            • TDA1541A

              perfectly

      • Mooser

        I think what Marty is trying to do, is simply to avoid condemning those who still believe in or practice Scientology. But just between you and me, his writing is so atrocious, and he hasn’t expunged the hubbardularity from his own thought processes, so that you have to eke it out from between the lines, and give him the benefit of every doubt (for instance, that he doesn’t know the difference between “telepathy” and “intuition” and uses them interchangeably) in order to get that.
        But that’s just between me ‘n thee.

        • Captain Howdy

          Marty saying that scientology is a religion that works if you believe in it is a major transition from the scientology maxim that scientology it is not based on faith or belief to any degree. So, in some way it is a step forward in that he is saying it’s just as much make believe and delusional as any other “religion”.

          • Mooser

            Oh, really? How many other “religions” is Mosey suing. And Marty, I am sure, did not say that it “works”, didn’t he say it works ‘just as well’ as any other religion? Big difference.

            • Captain Howdy

              And I inferred that he was inferring that none of the other religions work either.

            • Mooser

              “And I inferred that he was inferring that none of the religions work either.”

              Wouldn’t he be better off just saying, rather than inferring? But he never does..

            • Michael Hobson

              Monique “Mosey” Rathbun isn’t suing *any* “religion”. She is suing several corporations and specific persons – David Miscavige being one of them.

      • 1subgenius

        That doesn’t matter in the least to me. Not sure why it would to anyone.
        They are both serving useful purposes, though, and that does matter to me.

      • Science Doc

        I think Mike keeps a lot of his true feelings well in the background at his blog. What we get there is a daily dose of misery for Miscavige, and he can believe in anything he wants as long as he keeps delivering the goods. Marty is blogging some kind of introspective personal spiritual journey, not unlike like a journal kept in one’s youth that does not read so well years later. I have trouble reading a lot of his posts – they are too personal and too caught up in the job Scientology did on him. Getting over Scientology is really hard for anyone, and for someone who was a leader in scientology there are other challenges having to do with ego and misplaced impulses to lead.

        • 1subgenius

          Yeah, the purposes of Mike’s and Marty’s blogs are different.
          I don’t read Marty’s very often. Not relevant to my interests.

        • Sid_Snakey

          Thank you Doc. I think people need to revisit their perspective of Marty and Mike, particularly Marty actually. Those who believe he is still drinking the Kool-Aid are way behind what has happened. I understand it in a way, because reading his blog used to be so difficult and frustrating, and now he rarely posts anything particularly interesting. But people I think have missed a section of his posts during a period where he clearly abandoned the topic completely and is not at all a Scientologist anymore.

          Take his latest post which upset Michael above. What Marty is saying is that Scientology is a religion and not a science, in as much as it is a belief system only. The implication being that the tech only appears to work if you desperately believe it will. This is heresy to Scientologists, since they believe the tech works because it’s founded on truth, whereas Marty is saying it only appears to work because you’ve been convinced to believe it will work, and that is the only reason why it might appear to work for you.

          He then says that for those who no longer believe in Scientology but continue to “haunt themselves over it”, they should simply give it a rest, recognize it was simply a religion (i.e. a belief system) that they formerly believed in and then decide to leave the subject or not.

          Getting upset with Marty for calling it a religion I think is pointless. I appreciate the point that the label of “religion” has helped the cult get away with murder(!), but I think Marty was not trying to defend Scientology’s “religious” cloak but rather point out that it is NOT a science, and use this approach to help those struggling to let go realize it is a belief system they could choose to drop if they wanted to. i.e., there are no Body Thetans stuck to you that you must use Scientology to get rid of.

          You have to remember that Mike and Marty are both trying to communicate to Scientologists, so neither is going to put a headline on their sites saying “Scientology is a total scam!!!!” Both have been hugely successful in damaging the cult and I think it’s time some people cut Marty some slack.

          • GalacticGreg

            This analysis is the closest to the reality of what’s going on vis-a-vis Marty and Mike, Sid_S. imo.

          • Truthiwant

            Encrypted messages. Rathbun’s Dan Brown period.
            You have a good point but it’s a very ambiguous way of writing and also something that he might regret having said later on.

            • Sid_Snakey

              Rathbun has been on a long and painful journey, just like all who have been deeply embedded in the cult. He gave the best years of his life to it. We all know it is very difficult to just snap out of it. There are phases of recovery. Being an “Indie” is just one phase. It is not always guaranteed that someone will move to a next phase.

              Rathbun’s blog is, in my opinion, an extraordinary and unique record of one man’s journey out of not just the church, but Scientology altogether:- His initial attempts to reform the movement, his initial identification of Miscavige as the problem with the church, his falling out with other Independents as he challenged Scientology dogma, his recognition that Miscavige was simply following the words of the founder to the letter, his ultimate exit from the subject. And all the while fighting an intense day-to-day battle with the church which forced him out of his home, which continues to this day in the courtrooms of Texas.

              Inevitably therefore, his blog records the complete U-turn in his beliefs. How many of us have changed our minds 100% on such an important life-defining topic, in public?

              I have to say that I think Rathbun and Rinder are extraordinary individuals. Knowing the intimidation that would be unleashed against them, they have kept up their relentless attack against the church – and wow, they have done some serious damage. We take this for granted I think, because how much easier would it have been for them to slink off into the sunset, and completely hideaway from their distinctly inglorious pasts? Just think of the countless former church execs who have left who we never, ever hear of? Where are all the OSA staff from the 70s and 80s who could be speaking out? (especially as they took their orders from Hubbard himself).

              Sure, many of them like Mayo and Debbie Cook have taken money in exchange for silence. Do people think Rathbun and Rinder could not have taken serious money from Miscavige to shut their mouths?

              Sorry to bang on about this, but the constant carping at the Bunker about Rathbun in particular no longer reflects the situation and has not done so for some time. I actually think it’s about time we gave him some recognition, but that would require US to change OUR minds about something for a change.

            • Truthiwant

              I agree with you and Rathbun is certainly the single most important person who was involved in the church and is speaking out. Whatever he did in his past, the information coming from him is extremely important.
              I look at him as a sort of repentant mafia boss. Not somebody I could ever like but somebody who is trying to make up for his past and is at least on the right side of the fence now. Just how repentant Rathbun really is will have to be seen.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Mike and Marty are still on a mission and their blogs are just their means of transport.

          Their mission is all our mission when it comes to pursuit of shutting down the human rights abuse. I think it’s time to stifle and lay down the hyperventilation. There seems to be a coagulation of spilled blood and bones and legit bitters that has now formed some kind of highway for moving forward to this reckoning we’ve alll professed to need.

          Maybe it’s because I’m an old fart, but I face the reality of a sociopath with a few billion bucks who likes to destroy stuff utterly and without sorrow. And then I see all these fractured factions now gathering on the sidelines of the goal post and I’m like, what the hell, we are 1000 to 1 odds favorite together, a few feet from the goal post, and we’re supposed to stand around and chatter like a bunch of old hens about how we just couldn’t possibly strut over the line with That clucker over there and That rooster and That chick and That egghead and That ….

          If it saves just One child from the sea org, just one mother from losing their son, just one customer from losing their mind or their life, I’ve got no problems walking those last few yards with anyone who can help make that happen. We’re so close.

        • GalacticGreg

          So true. Mark Rathbun was *the* leading auditor in *all of $cientology*. As evidenced by his doing the auditing on Cruize when he came back into the deep-in bubble.

          His journey is way different than Rinder’s. Mike has a lot to answer for – he was awful at OSA for nearly 2 decades. But he’s transformed and it’s a sight to behold. And his blog is e-v-i-s-e-r-a-t-i-n-g David Miscavige and $cientology Inc.

          • Jimmy3

            His blog is doing what now? I’ll have to go c that.

            • GalacticGreg

              wow u might

            • Mooser

              Jimmy, don’t overlook that Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are two different people, to judge by their blogs. Rinder has concentrated lately on exposing intra-Scientology communications he is privy to. He keeps it real over there.

            • Jimmy3

              You’ll receive no argument from me, sir. Mike Rinder’s recent posts have been e-x-e-p-t-i-o-n-a-l.

        • Disaffected

          Marty, IMO, seems to be entrapped harder and deeper than Rinder. I believe this has something to do with the “programming” difference between the two. Marty was after all a top notch auditor doing his hypnotic mumbo jumbo mind control while Rinder did some pretty awful stuff as OSA INT head, but didn’t get his brains fried as much as Marty did.

      • Disaffected

        One can get the man out of $cientology. But can one really get $cientology out of the man?

        The latter seems to be the bigger challenge and maybe even a life spanning ordeal.

        • Mooser

          “But can one really get $cientology out of the man?”

          I made a purely subjective guess of “one-to-one” (one year out for every year in). But that was an uninformed personal guess. John Atack, who knows lots more about it than I ever will, put forth a figure of about 12 years, for those deep into it to thoroughly expunge it from their system.!

          • Disaffected

            I respectfully disagree with the 12 years figure as standard. At best its an indication, but by far not a verified datum to take as a measurement.

            I truly believe for many it takes far longer, a life time perhaps even.

            I too consider mister J. Atack a very knowledgeable person in the scientology mind fuck.
            But I have witnessed far longer periods of time to expunge just the most blatant tenets fully. The more subtle ones might take far longer.

            One thing for me is sure: one never fully recovers to one’s former self (i.e. pre-scio state).

            I think that’s one of the main reasons many knowledgeable persons who have personally experienced scientology keep occupied with the subject long after they have abandoned it, just as mister Atack does.

            • Missionary Kid

              Could it be that even if one had never been in $cientology, it would be impossible to achieve the state one was in at the date one started. It takes a lot to deprogram something that one spends a lot of time in.

              My journey away from the all-encompassing religion I was brought up in has been a lifelong journey. On the other hand, the most rapid progress took place in the first 5 years. Occasionally, I find myself recognizing a thought that could come from nowhere else but my background. Luckily, I found people who helped me put my experience in perspective.

            • Disaffected

              “My journey away from the all-encompassing religion I was brought up in has been a lifelong journey.” — This is a key statement!

              What religion is that of which you are speaking of MK?

              If that religion has some mental programming aspects to it, and it was a life long journey for you to get away from, just imagine the position of an ex $cio.

              His whole “religion” is nothing else but malicious mental programming with the heaviest, most damaging and intrusive methods.

              Add the organizational mind control to it (equally damaging) and you have got a trap that is almost impossible to break out from even when one gets a way from it physically.

            • Missionary Kid

              I am the son of evangelical Christian fundamentalist missionaries, who spent years in China, then, when they were forced out by the communist revolution, raised me in the U.S., then went back to Taiwan when I graduated from high school.

              I started to wonder about what I was taught when I was exposed to friends who weren’t concerned with everyone’s relationship with Jesus, then, with puberty, started to question it, but I realized at some level that to openly dispute what I was taught would not get me anywhere.

              I first took on the intellectual aspects of what I was taught in college, but the emotional aspect of what I had been taught took exposure to people who thought and acted completely differently than my background.

              One of the key things that happened was that I met another student who had been raised an atheist, and I found that both her morals and actions were far more moral than the great majority of Christians I knew, and I had known a lot, and that included clergy. I didn’t change my life right then, but it made me realize that what I had been taught about atheists was wrong.

              For a long time, as a young man, I hung out at bars, listening to music, and I used to say that even with all that time, I still had spent more time in church or church activities than bars. I had Sunday School, church, youth meetings, Sunday evening services, Wednesday night prayer meetings, Church camps, Vacation Bible School, (even a short-termed attempt at duplicating Cub Scouts, which was considered too worldly, called Sky Pilots) and confirmation, when I became a teenager. That was in addition to nightly bible study and prayer that usually lasted half an hour.

              I was surrounded by church and its activities – except for public school and activities. The fact that I had a look at other cultures also helped me.

              There was never any disconnection from my parents when, after they came back from Taiwan, it became obvious I didn’t believe as they did. My dad still tried to “save” me, and he did it in some painful ways. I also chose not to discuss things with him, because I had discovered that you can’t argue belief, because it’s all a matter of faith.

              My searching and probing into Christianity gave me a lot of insight into how those beliefs came about. Two college courses that also were signposts for me were The Bible as Literature, which was taught like a normal literature class. I knew the material well, but never from that viewpoint. The other one was a comparative religions class.

              It was based on the religious texts of different religions, starting with the oldest, the Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita. When it got to the Tao, I realized that I’d been thinking that way all my life. One of my sisters pointed out that while our dad was in China saving souls for Jesus he became a practicing Taoist. When we got to the bible, again, it was approached in a different way. (This was at a State University).

              All of those were signposts along the way.

            • Michael Leonard Tilse

              Missionary Kid, I love these personal histories. it is just so amazing to hear how people grew up and sought to figure out who they were and that question: “I know what I have been taught, and other teachings, but what do “I” believe?

              On a side note. I had the experience of not being allowed to do Boy Scouts after Cub Scouts because it was too something or other. Not christian enough, I guess. The substitute was the “Christian Service Brigade” which ran a troop out of our southern baptist church. I wonder if it was like Sky Pilots? Lots of emphasis on bible study, which I avoided and it had enough merit badges and camping adventures to keep me going. Plus it got me out of my parents house on Wed. nights.

            • Missionary Kid

              As far as I remember (it was over 60 years ago), we met on Tuesday nights, so it didn’t interfere with Wed. night prayer meetings. Sky Pilots was, as I’ve discovered recently, a Southern California thing. I came across my Sky Pilots wings recently.

              Now, the fundamentalist churches have Awana clubs. It’s fundamentalist as shit. All of the organizations like that are a part of the same idea: keeping fundamentalism working. (I used that phrase on purpose.)

              The denomination I was brought up in was similar to Baptists in some ways, and closer to Lutheran in others. I was brought up not to:
              Dance, drink, smoke, or chew,

              Or go with girls who do.

              I got a half hour lecture from my dad after I had graduated from high school because I used the word, “darn,” which is, after all, a substitute for damn.

              Because my dad was a Reverend, when I incurred his wrath for disobeying him, it could feel like I was also disobeying god. On the other hand, it gave me a lot of skepticism towards any religious leaders.

              For a while, I dated a woman in college whose uncle was a priest. I found that my attitude towards him was, “so what?” Of course, there was a lot of anti-Catholicism around me growing up, but that didn’t matter. I found that I looked him as just another man, and the halo effect that my girlfriend looked at him with had no influence on me.

            • Mooser

              Would you kindly, sir give “God” the upper-case “G” it deserves? Or do you simply want this entire comment section consumed by fire and brimstone. Frankly, I have no intention of suffering for your apostasy!

            • Missionary Kid

              Sorry, but to me, god is just a figment of man’s imagination. You are free to capitalize the term as you wish.

              I have no fear of fire and brimstone, especially since most of the imagery of hell comes from a novel, The Inferno.

            • Disaffected

              Wow, MK. That’s is a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing that with me (us).

              I especially love the part where you meet an atheist and this person wasn’t as bad or scary as you were led to believe. I experienced the same, but then with “wogs”. The great majority turned out to be decent loving and caring people. I learned a great deal from “wogs” as you did from the atheist.

              You followed the signposts and dug your way out! I admire you for that. It must have been a harder journey than your story reflects here. But I am getting the essence of it.

              Its good to see you have gained a bigger view of religion and religious practices in general. Is that the reason you are following the developments in $cientology so much?

            • Missionary Kid

              You get it. The wogs/atheist parallel is right on the mark. There are other similarities, among them, the rigidity of the beliefs.

              In some ways it was far easier because my parents weren’t around when I went to college. That gave me a lot of freedom to explore. Also, there never was any disconnection involved.

              My oldest sister had a few months with Dianetics in the middle 1950s, but flipped out of it and became an ultra fundamentalist Christian, which is pretty much where she is now, in her 70s. Her Christian beliefs were a bit nutty to my parents, who are deceased.

              When I first started to read the Bunker, one of the Co$ authorities who Tony brought in to comment, said that $cientology was a fundamentalist religion (I believe they used the term religion). I was jarred, but then I realized that it was true. It’s all based upon the ravings of one man: lrh, and even the Indies spend time debating the purity of the scripture.

              The same oldest sister, when she was In high school and after, was always bringing home stray characters. One guy, who supposedly had mental problems, she brought to a unusual Sunday evening service that had some yahoo who was delivering his “message” with some lame entertainment that included a dummy and him playing a saw. I remember my sister’s friend started to laugh out loud, not at the lame jokes, but at the whole ridiculousness of the performance going under the category of religion. I was embarrassed for my church, and it made me see that what was going on was ridiculous. Perhaps that’s why I engage in the Joking and Degrading of $cientology.

              I’ve been collecting different nicknames for $cientology people, places, structures, as well as clever things people have said about them. The vituperation and disgust aimed at Mi$cavige is far greater than any other person. There’s over 800 nicknames that people have come up with, while lrh has less than 200. On the other hand, in the category of Things Said about, $cientology has over 470 entries. Many of those, if you read them, come from pain and suffering, but still are funny and insightful. Some of them are only understandable to people who have been $cientologists or who have read up on the topic. I’ve modified many of them so they’ll be understandable to other never-ins like me.

              The index of what I’ve collected is at http://tonyortega.org/2013/10/12/tomkat-project-in-los-angeles-heres-your-chance-to-help-the-show-get-to-tinseltown/#comment-1147415730

            • Disaffected

              Thanks for clearing up my question. I understand you a lot better now.
              You are doing a great job, collecting those nicknames and phrases. I hope they get published some day!

            • Mooser

              “I am the son of evangelical Christian fundamentalist missionaries”

              Gosh, MK, I’ve heard “evangelical Christian fundamentalist” as a descriptor, but I never knew it was actually the name of a Church. Learn something every day.

            • Missionary Kid

              Huh? The order of the adjectives doesn’t matter. I capitalize Christian for the followers of Christ.

            • Mooser

              But what was the name of the denomination?

              Go ahead and capitalize whatever you want. I just hope you’re fast enough to avoid lightening bolts. Those mothers hurt!

            • Missionary Kid

              I don’t give out the name of the denomination because it’s TMI.

            • Mooser

              I’m sorry, I was wrong about Atack. I went back to the article, and he actually said “12 and a half years” or 12.5 years.

    • 1subgenius

      Nicely said, and I think appropriate for Marty’s blog.
      I don’t really care about Marty’s musings, but I respect his public airing of his “spiritual journey”.
      Its cringe-worthy much of the time, but it doesn’t bother me at all.
      Arguing/debating definitions is a rather frustrating exercise, and one I try to avoid.

      • Disaffected

        I share your take on this! When Marty started out blogging his posts made lots of sense to me and they were interesting because they dealt with factual, tangible and verifiable stuff about the criminal organization called $cio Inc. But when he started his esoteric and philosophic ramblings about graduating from scientology I kind of lost interest. His posts became harder and harder to follow for me. I gotta tell you, at some point I thought he started to resemble mister D. Sherman *shudder*. So at that point I stopped commenting there.

        • Baby

          I only lurk.. but mostly to read the comments coming from clams.. and then exes correcting clams..

          then clams..then back to exes.. much drama when I’m really bored.

          • Disaffected

            Mmh, and interesting viewpoint to read that blog from. I will give it a go and lurk there once in a while with that viewpoint in mind. However, at this point, its unclear to me whether Marty is even going to continue with his blog.
            He seems to be done with it.

            • Mooser

              However, at this point, its unclear to me whether Marty is even going to continue with his blog.
              He seems to be done with it.”

              How would you like it if you were offering people, out of the goodness of your heart, the “three recommendations” needed to “graduate” Scientology (“any individual” should be able to do this) and instead of adulation, you got torn to pieces in the Bunker comment section?

            • Baby

              You know Dis It’s like watching a chess player..( or checkers depending on your view of Marty..) hahah

      • Troy MacGyver SP

        Marty is a criminal who belongs in jail for his,”crimes.” I don’t care if he was under, hubbard spell or had dm sittin’ on his face that’s irrelevant. He piicks up the cans he puts them down..But people forget he conspired numerous time to commit felonies and should be tried for such crimes just like,dm. She(Marty) is a drama queen;look who is stalking Mosey now. I spent hours looking for that photo of the truck plate until someone pointed out it was on another place on his site. I hope Mosey gets her just deserved money and flies as far away as she can from that idiot! I said this before and got nailed by,”A child needs both parents,etc..” Not if it is him.

        • 1subgenius

          I got no argument with any of that.

          • Troy MacGyver SP

            “cause you’re a fucking genius.

    • Silence of the Clams

      I think scams must have a set of redeeming qualities in order to make them palatable to the masses. And, as I understand it, there are certain aspects of scientology that can realize personal benefits. But it’s a ruse, as you point out. Good summation.

      I hope Marty posts this and I hope it gets through to him. He seems like a guy that is dealing with a lot do shit. He could use the peace of mind rejecting this farce would provide.

      • Troy MacGyver SP

        Needs to be in a nice psych hospital w/ an ass full of Vistiral before some shock treatment. Maybe they’ll let him hold onto the cans during the surge cycle.

    • Baby

      Michael.. You are such an intelligent man. I always appreciate your valuable posts. Thank you..Heading over to see if it has been posted.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    Pour yourself a cuppa and take a few minutes
    Scroll down for the freshest ones.
    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448390
    ty obs

    • http://frankdisalleisadummy.wordpress.com/ Get Chutney Love

      Responding to keep your comment visible. Almost time for those stats on the Best Coast.

    • K2P2

      Albuquerque to New York

      • Mooser

        “Albuquerque to New York”

        Only if you make a left at Albuquerque, of course.

        • Mooser

          Up-votes for the left turn at Albuquerque!

    • aegerprimo

      Had me a cup o’ RED X.
      Nice graphic Obs!

    • Disaffected

      Did some ferocious flagging today, I was feeling pissed. Calmed me down :)

  • media_lush

    for those of you who followed scientologycelebrity I might have a little bit of an exclusive at midnight UK time on my blog

    • Baby

      OOOOOOOOOOOh I’m all ears Lush…

    • 1subgenius

      I’ll set my alarm. That is US Eastern Time 7pm, no?

    • Mooser

      Ah, you got me! Yup, I would love to know anything you can tell about that blog, or the people involved. That was a wild ride over at Scientiologycelebrity! (I used to blush, and become slightly titillated by the language, but still and all, I loved it! Some of the acts described were, I think, not physically possible, but what do I know?)

  • And I don’t rent cars!

    OFF TOPIC but still deals with the topic of $cientology.

    I don’t know how many people realize that Jeff Augustine (aka J. Swift) has been posting daily at his new blog titled, “The Scientology Money Project” at http://scientologymoneyproject.com/

    Yesterday’s post was a leaked copy of the final draft of the 1993 closing agreement between the chnrch and the IRS, as leaked by the New York Times on Dec. 30, 1997. I was under the impression it was sealed and had never been leaked nor had several legal cases against the chnrch been able to get it entered into court documents. Hmmm…

    Way to go, Jeff!

    BTW, I notice he hasn’t had many comments posted to his blog yet, so I would encourage everyone to go over and say something to Jeff to encourage him on and support his tremendous efforts to get documents and the truth out to us. Just a suggestion.

    • Tony Ortega

      It was the Wall Street Journal that made that report public in 1997, not the New York Times. And it’s been online for a long, long time.

      • Jgg2012

        Right, and it says Narconon is part of Scientology (page 55, line 1) , though they are now claiming they aren’t.

        • Sarah James

          How convenient! lol

      • And I don’t rent cars!

        Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate it. I’ll fix my post.

    • aegerprimo

      Done. I have been clicking the LIKE star for all his posts… and subscribed to the blog. I left a small comment on his ABOUT page, because I am mostly speechless about all the info he is putting up at this site.

    • GalacticGreg

      A great new spot on the Internet to lay out the reality of the machinations of $cientology Inc. Hope this link is reposted week-after-week, to drive traffic there. Excellent – thanx Cars.

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    Alexa update for Apr. 24: *refresh for images*

    Tony: US rank #24,682 – down 82 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 18,059)
    Scientology: US rank #55,344 – up 1,204 from yesterday. (Average rank last 3 months: 47,569)

    Difference: 30,662 – 1,286 less than yesterday. (Average difference last 3 months: 29,510)

    Clicks from India – 12,5% today.

  • flyonthewall

    I wanted to bring this article to the Bunkerites’ attention as it is very informative but more so to draw your attention to the comments section. They are hilarious, especially the ones made by a William Roberts. He even has an exchange with Marc Headley that is freakin sweet! http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/church-of-scientology-visit . Roberts is masterful, he had me cracking up outloud for real

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      That’s so funny. I got about 3/4 of the way through William’s first post and realized he was SUCH a troll. He is creating a full bore clueless spittle spraying fundie scientologist who must have never read any policies about how you talk to the public or “Glutz PR.”

      • flyonthewall

        I know right! I love it when he’s like “Oh no David Miscaviage put my head in a trash can” I just lost it, LMFAO

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        What’s so warm and fuzzy fantastic about these special troll moments is that it brings out the best in our human nature, or…. Marc Headley! Doesn’t get better than that.

    • El Gringo

      Thanks for the link to the article. Fun read and hilarious comments.

    • Qbird

      He sounds a bit like OT8isgreat…

      • flyonthewall

        Yeah he does now that you mention it

  • media_lush

    new post up http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk

    please look at the pic I’ve added

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Some heavy allegations there. You sure you want to put this out there?

      • Espiando

        I think Lush is the conduit for the beings who used to run ScientologyCelebrity to send a message. If these people were real, and inside of CC Int, then they had access to those folders (we all know from Laura D’s suit that everyone has access to those folders, so it’s plausible). Excerpts detailing the crimes of the Sea Orgiasts would be the neutron bomb for publics, who are trained to believe that Sea Orgiasts are the Best Of The Best and are the true Most Ethical Beings On The Planet.

        Personally, I’d like to see some names attached to the guys who were out-2D with each other in the third floor Qual men’s room, but this will do. Especially if it’s Dave Petit’s confessions. That cocksucker has a lot of crimes to his name.

        • Baby

          I don’t know what to think.. and you know how much Tony appreciates gossip.. eeeeeeeep

          I’m keeping my trap shut …. shhhhhhhhhh but you go ahead I’ll lurk away..

          • Disaffected

            Tony is a journalist pure sang, its his job to verify and re-verify and even then be skeptical.

            We, bunker inhabitants on the other hand, have our own role to play. An occasional gossip …. me like ;)!

            • Baby

              Oh hell disaffected I didn’t say I didn’t like gossip.. ha Trust me.. I also post on radar about Kardashians and Lindsay.. ; 0

              Wacked out Human Behavior is my specialty!

            • Disaffected

              A gossiping chain smoking baby, brilliant! :)

            • Baby

              OMG Yes.. I Ain’t Proud!

              As a Wise woman once said..( I can’t remember who..) ” If you can’t say anything nice about someone .. Come sit beside me! ” xo

            • Disaffected

              I should add: a very funny chain smoking baby, id love to sit next to you ;), it certainly won’t be boring!

            • Baby

              Awwwwwwww Dis.. Sweet…

              Trust me my hubby would love to trade places with your anytime..He would love to be bored once in awhile!

        • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

          Never mind the Damnation Navy slaves and their confessions. What is going to sell tabloid newspapers is the stuff from the confessional folders of the celebs.

          • Espiando

            The celebutard-addled morons, I don’t care about. I care about the people who are financially supporting this cult, and that’s the public, specifically the whales. If they see Sea Borg Crimes, that will shatter the whole foundation of their faith, especially if the inevitable “bad apple” excuse doesn’t appear to hold water.

    • noseinabk

      Always good to see Alanzo posting. Thank you for these recaps ML. I appreciate them a great deal when I am way behind on my bunker reading.

    • outraged

      Lush – you are the bomb! There always needs to be someone who break the barriers, is willing to go a bit farther than the rest of us old fogies. Get to the meat of the matter, so to speak. :-}

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Ouch! Wouldn’t it be inconvenient for Captain David “he is NOT insane!” Miscavige if the confessions he orders victims to undergo become used in evidence against him? We already have a large group of ex-victims who have stated in public that DM enjoys flaunting the access to the famous clams given to him by his access to their confessional folders. We all know about the video equipment in the auditing rooms.
      What is DM to do? Order it all destroyed? By whom? Who can be trusted to actually destroy stuff (and to not smuggle out the one or two page in thousands which will bring the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cienrtology down by proving organised criminal extortion and fraud)?

  • Sandy

    oh jeez. You Minnesota Bunkeroos up in the Arrowhead. I’m SO sorry – up to a foot of snow!!!

    • Qbird

      oh dear god – yes. It is coming down thick, heavy & wet – heart attack snow, I shit you not Sandy!
      Oh boo – BOOooooooo! just pbtpbtpbtpbt!

      • Sandy

        Oh, Gawd, Qbird. Unbelievable. We had rain all day, but heard on the news about you. Am SO sorry!

        • Qbird

          Oh no! 10 inches so far & still snowing… I am stuck… bad winter! Bad Winter!!
          Same thing happened last year too Sandy… jeez, only our Canadian neighbors can relate… if you chose to live this far north… well… then. Outside my window this a.m.
          Merry Christmas!!!

          • Sandy

            Oh, man. I understand living up north, but enuff is enuff!

      • GalacticGreg

        and it’s a month into Spring already.
        Yeah! not in NYC, it ain’t. Bitter cold wind.

        But you guys with snow. Oh no!!

  • NOLAGirl

    A line from J.Swift’s most recent post about a former reg and his “hat” for regging.

    “Any control we exert upon the public brings about a better society, we are entirely justified in using control.”

    That is beyond sickening and frightening.

    http://scientologymoneyproject.com/2014/04/24/scientology-money-extraction-techniques-the-sonenfield-method/

    • GalacticGreg

      it is, nGirl.

    • Once_Born

      ‘The ends justify the means’ is one of those toxic ideas that keeps turning up – especially in organisations that think they have access to certain knowledge – and always a red flag.

      Sickening and frightening indeed – but, sadly, not unique to Scientology.

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      Happily, once public prosecutors grow some ovaries / testicles the undue influence should be a doodle to prove.

      The criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology spells it out.

      From the ethics folder of Alain Stoffen (folder authenticated by the Co$) : “Take care to sit near the door in case he wants to leave. This will enable you to stop him and handle his disagreements.” https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.scientology/Wu_n39TnQqU

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X – LA is posting NOW, about 14th down
    Go get ‘em while they are FRESH

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448390

    • aegerprimo

      RED X’d for today.

  • Sejanus

    $cientology. There oughta be a law against it.

    • Troy MacGyver SP

      Laws

    • http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/muslinger/ Jens TINGLEFF

      I rather think that existing laws should be applied. Applied fairly and with due process. But also applied to all of the crimes of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology, such as government infiltration and so on and so forth.

  • Robert Eckert

    OT: on the eve of the canonization ceremonies for John Paul II, at a shrine dedicated to him a giant crucifix toppled over and killed a young worshipper:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/john-paul-ii-crucifix-kills-man_n_5206712.html

    • Baby

      Oh How tragic.. sigh

    • Science Doc

      That will give him a past life engram in the next life. Plus it will put his R6 implant on steroids.

      • Baby

        Not nice ; /

  • WhamBham

    A good friend of mine is involved in the Nerium Skincare multi-level marketing cult…reminds me so much of Scientology tactics…love bombing, their own language, takes over their lives, etc…..

    • noseinabk

      I posted about the same thing recently.
      It drives me crazy that intelligent people get sucked into these
      schemes. If the product is so great, it will do well being sold to
      the masses. They run covers just like scientology. If you look up the
      product, what you will find is leading links that hint at derogatory
      info but turn into an infomercial for the product.

      • WhamBham

        yep

      • Jimmy3

        I was just talking about this with a friend at my last Amway meeting. Hoe is it that intelligent people can be suckered so easily? I just can’t understand it.

        • noseinabk

          So confusing Jimmy. My Landmark rep told me to “just go for it”. I try to keep an open mind.

        • Captain Howdy

          “If God didn’t want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep.”

          • Jimmy3

            Well, when you put it like that it makes perfect sense. God is a huge fan of wool.

          • noseinabk

            Howdy, that is pretty cold when talking
            about someone getting taken for a ride. My daughter is very savvy
            about people. Did not stop her from not wanting to be the bad guy, or
            wanting to support her friends endeavors. The minute she told me she
            signed on to this BS I was livid. Fortunately she called me and read
            the links I sent and never used the product. Unfortunate, I had to
            push her for 9 months to cancel the order. She now realizes that a
            true friend would not have used her this way.

            • Captain Howdy

              My sister has been in nearly 40 years and she had a brood that I am assuming is still in also. It doesn’t change my opinion.

            • noseinabk

              I get why you take the hard line. I respect your view. While I understand that some people become suckers, I can not understand why they remain so.

            • Missionary Kid

              When all of your social interaction revolves around some idea, and you get just enough strokes to keep going back, and you bond with the other suckers, it’s hard to leave.

              That’s what drives megachurches. Everyone feels like they’re contributing to some greater good. The more people involved, the more groupthink takes place. There are truly economies of scale that take place, but the whole thing is emotional.

              There is no connection between intelligence and emotion, and Co$ is based on emotion.

            • Jimmy3

              I had written a longer reply to this before scrapping it. It was about love and family and it would have made everyone here sob uncontrollably, so I decided not to post it. Sobbing people are annoying.

              But I did want to ask you about your situation. I really have no basis to understand the reality of disconnection, so I’m sorry if this is an offensive or a stupid question, but when is the last time you tried to contact your sister? Could her resolve have softened after so long and she would welcome hearing from you? And if not, what about your nieces or nephews? Maybe they are not as indoctrinated as you believe. Would you consider reaching out to them?

            • Missionary Kid

              Co$ maneuvers its suckers so that Co$ becomes their family, and hypnotizes them to believe that what they’re doing for Co$ is the righteous path. It is the righteous thing to do to disconnect, because you’re showing the SP that they’re on the wrong path. You’re working to “handle” their case.

              Do you see that Co$ works hard to redefine family?

            • Jimmy3

              Yes, I’ve read enough about all this bullshit to understand how it works in a general sense. But all the cases of disconnection I’ve read about would not fit into some sort of generic, one-size-fits-all box. There are always variables and each case is depressing in its own unique way. They are all different, and in some cases, disconnection is broken by time and further understanding of what is going on. That’s why I was trying to get some sense of how Howdy feels about it.

          • Mooser

            Sheep get sheared, but they grow it back. Done right, and done at the right time, it benefits both sheep and man.

    • Baby

      OMG.. My old boss MLM in Nikken Magnetic Crap.. Sickening.. I take that back..

      BEYOND SICKENING

  • noseinabk

    sorry if double post.

    For Dodo. As usual , with COS, welcome to the crazy train.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otdHbA4GlSI
    gnight all.

  • GalacticGreg

    A Bunkeroo posted how devastating to self-worth doing much of the processing in $cientology can be. Especially the Ls, as described by Tony O’s interview with Jefferson Hawkins: http://tonyortega.org/2014/04/15/jefferson-hawkins-helps-us-understand-scientologys-l-rundowns/comment-page-1/

    An individual pays what Tony O estimated at $70,000 or so for 100 hours to complete, while answering questions about themselves, like this (from Carnegie Mellon University Touretsky Website). Holding the cans of the e-meter. No wonder it takes so long. And no wonder it fucks with people’s minds. Remember to include the reality that the $cilon member will be answering these questions for not just this life, but for any past life on their “whole track”, going back, oh, say, 948 billion years . . . (2nd dynamic, 3rd dynamic and 6th dynamic questions)

    2D:
    1. Is the 2D something to stay away from?
    2. Have you been made to feel inadequate sexually?
    3. Have you been made wrong for loving someone?
    4. Have you desired someone and not won them over?
    5. Was there someone that insisted you were at fault in the 2D?
    6. Has a 2D partner used anger to get their way?
    7. Have you been stopped on the 2D?
    8. Has a 2D partner forced you into something you don’t want?
    9. Have you gone along with a 2D when you knew it was wrong?
    10. Have you conceded a major point on the 2D when you shouldn’t have?
    11. Have you left a 2D for no good reason?
    12. Have you harmed a 2D?
    13. Have you withheld your true intentions to a 2D?
    14. Does some destructive impulse get in the way of your 2D happiness?
    15. Are you ruled by an evil intention when it comes to the 2D?
    16. Do you have hostility to the opposite sex?
    17. Is there an evil intention that is blunted on the 2D?
    18. Is ther something you want to do and shouldn’t on the 2D?
    19. Has cruelty been a part of your past on the 2D?
    20. Is there a past life 2D partner you have ruined?
    21. Is ther a past life partner that you have suppressed?
    22. Have you stopped another 2D?
    23. Is there some reason for hurting another in the 2D?
    24. Does some consideration make what you do on the 2D right no matter what?
    25. Have you been afraid to reveal something on the 2D?
    26. Do you withhold your real purposes on the 2D?
    27. Has the 2D been a source of revenge for you?
    28. Are you proud of some overt on the 2D?
    29. Is the 2D something to stop?
    30. Is the 2D not worth it?
    31. Are women better left alone?
    32. Has a destructive impulse been missed on the 2D?

    3D:
    1. Have you been ousted from a group for no good reason?
    2. Have you had a group make you out to be a failure when you weren’t
    3. Was a group determined to stop ;you?
    4. Was a group threatening to you?
    5. Was a group invalidating your initiative?
    6. Has any group failed to better you?
    7. Have you gone along with the wishes of a group when it was wrong?
    8. Have you taken on a group purpose that was destructive?
    9. Have you sided with a traitor of a group?
    10. Have you been an agent against a group that turned out to be worthwhile?
    11. Is there a group that you sided with that did in a lot of people?
    12. Have you been a member of a group whose intent was to harm?
    13. Have you been in a group that chose to hate some part of mankind?

    14. Is there a group you were in that aided only the rich and influential?

    15. Is there a group that you have actually worked against?
    16. Have you broken up a group through sabotage?
    17. Have you played two groups against each other?
    18. Have you been a destructive source in a group?
    19. Have you had the impulse to do away with any group?
    20. Have you let a group die off?
    21. Have you spied on a group and ruined it?
    22. Is there a hidden distrust of anyone in a group?
    23. Do you hide an evil intention while in a group activity?
    24. Have you ever failed with a purpose to harm any group?
    25. Has a leader been you enemy?

    6D
    1. Are your possessions your own?
    2. Have you been bought off with possessions?
    3. Have you let things decay?
    4. Has MEST been your enemy?
    5. Have you stolen things?
    6. Have you been destructive to another’s belongings?
    7. Have you intentionally hurt an object?
    8. Have you used energy to dictate to others?
    9. Have you used MEST to do something evil?
    10. Is there an impulse to do something to MEST?
    11. Have you grabbed another’s space?
    12. Have you destroyed an aesthetic creation?
    13. Have you failed to control a harmful intention with energy?
    14. Have you let time dictate to you?
    15. Have you created something that harmed a lot of people?
    16. Has an object of yours been used for destructive purposes?
    17. Have you created something with an intent to use it for destruction?
    18. Have you had to restrict yourself in your pursuit of possession?
    19. Has a destructive impulse gotten in the way of your pursuit for material wealth?
    20. Has a destructive impulse towards MEST been missed?

    • TDA1541A

      Follow up Question. Do you smell a rat ?

    • Baby

      2. Have you been made to feel inadequate sexually?

      During the Civil War I was held captive during the American Revolution..and then this guy from England told me that I had to kiss this here General Washington ..

      I did NOT feel comfortable so I scooted back to ..uh…India to be with uh Winston Churchill..

      To this day I don’t feel comfortable watching Rugby

      • Baby

        Thank you for my Pity upvotes..bawwwwwwwwwwhahahhahahah can you tell I’m tired!

        • Jimmy3

          Up voted because it is so interesting how you went from sexual inadequacy to American war history to your discomfort while watching rugby. I’m not exactly sure what happened there, but it is surely deserving of an up vote.

          • Baby

            I was doing past lives and they just kept overlapping..

      • Mooser

        “To this day I don’t feel comfortable watching Rugby”

        Funny thing, my dentist is a big Rugby fan. Subscribes to English TV so he can catch all the matches. The rougher the scrim, the more he likes it. Can’t figure out why.

  • media_lush

    man, “cults” are news everywhere…. and now guess where the c word has raised it’s ugly head now?… yep, the tragic South Korean ferry disaster:

    “The church has some 20,000 followers including senior officials from the Cheonghaejin Marine Co and many of the Sewol’s crew.

    Byung-eun has also been linked to a religious cult named ‘Odaeyang’, of which he believed to have been the leader.

    In 1987, more than 30 people from the group were found dead, bound and gagged. The deaths were investigated as a mass murder-suicide but there was no evidence that Byung-eun was involved.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2611954/Reclusive-owner-South-Korean-ferry-dubbed-millionaire-no-face-raided-police-revealed-ran-CULT.html#ixzz2zsETOcu3
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    what’s interesting [to me anyway] is that if you actually look at the link address it ends with the word CULT in capitol letters

    • outraged

      WTF???????

      ARe you kidding me??

      Do you know the ferry crew told the kids to STAY IN THEIR CABINS, which they did. This is why the percentage of adults was so high compared to percentage of surviving high schoolers.

      did any SCIONS drown?

      I am so angry that this effing captain and his crew had a HALF HOUR to get those kids off the boat.

      Instead he left, the crew left. and the kids drowned. They did what they were told – go back to your cabin.

      What an idiot!

      I do not believe in the death penalty but this man should burn.

      • And I’m Cute, Too

        It’s been in the news every day where I am. So heartbreaking, that so many lives can be lost by the incompetence and negligence of just a few. The possibility of a cult’s involvement just makes it more twisted.

  • valshifter

    Scientology demands that judges to be neutral, that is a word they do not know, because when they demand all litigations should be arbitrated thru church personnel, they use scientologist in “good standing” that means obedient ronbots, and since you are against them to begin with you are already scum. they would not use any decent citizen from the real world in the arbitration process. so yeah they are the first ones that are NOT NEUTRAL. is their way or no way.

  • Pierrot

    Outraged by co$?, disconnection, taxes exemptions,
    You can help.
    Join the RED X team and fair game co$ ads on craigslist.
    Yesterday was Statsday. There is a big crop of BLUES.
    Just like fishes in a barrel!

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-76#post-2448495

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.Call 1-866-XSEAORG
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT, Call 1-866-XSEAORG

    Ty THDNE