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TRANSCRIPT, PART 2: Experienced auditor is taped talking about E-meter, the OT levels

And now we have for you the second half of the remarkable recorded conversation between a recent high school graduate and the OT Scientologist auditor, which ranged over a number of fascinating subjects.

As we pointed out last time, this was a legally-recorded conversation, but we’ve changed the names of both participants and we’ve removed references to their location.

What we’re interested in are the really good questions asked by “Carl,” a young Underground Bunker reader, and the responses from “Sally,” a Scientology auditor who brings new people into the organization.

When we left off last time, Carl had asked if Sally had an E-meter, and she was bringing it out to demonstrate.


Sally: I put it away when a new person comes. Now I am, well, let me back up. After a person is Clear, there are more gains to be had. But you’re way past having a Reactive Mind. And so what we do after Clear is like, well, you’ll find out when you get there. But, we do need to meter for that. And so, I audit every day. In this very room.

Carl: How many people a day do you audit?

Sally: No, I mean I audit me every day.

Carl: Oh.

Sally: Oh, I kind of left that out, didn’t I? I audit only one gal, and she’s only able to come once a week, because she’s got little kids and all that. So, I left out an important part. After a certain point, after you’re Clear, things happen so fast, there’s no time for, you know, if I gave somebody an auditing command or asked an auditing question, there reaches a point where having that verbal communication, just back and forth, is too slow, thing’s already done. So, we are trained on what’s called the solo – I’m a solo auditor, and we solo audit on things. Here’s the electrodes. We just call them cans. And when I first got involved in Scientology, my very first meter was a little wooden box one, Mark 5. So I’ve trained on a Mark 5, a Mark 6, a Mark 7, a Mark Super 7, a Mark 7 Quantum, and this is an 8.

Carl: OK.

Sally: So this is my sixth meter model that I’ve trained with, and you know what? This one puts all the other ones to shame. Oh my gosh. Because each time there’s an advance in electronics technology they get updated. So you want to see how it works?

Carl: Sure.

Sally: OK. Let’s turn it on. It’s showing me how much battery power I have. Plenty of battery. And then we want that middle readout to say 2.00. There we go. Do you have any rings on?

Carl: No.

Sally: OK, go ahead and hold onto these. Now, not a real tight grip. Just a relaxed grip. Normally that sized can would not be used by someone holding two cans. That’s the size for solo auditors. But all my regular cans are packed away.

Carl: Are the regular cans…

Sally: They’re longer. There’s different sizes. Now this is my size. There’s your needle. And I don’t know what you’ve read or how much you understand so what this is measuring, you know the body has a whole electromagnetic flow. And this is simply measuring changes in the resistance of that flow.


Carl: Where should I put my hands? Should I have them on the table?

Sally: No, probably on your legs.

Carl: OK.

Sally: OK, so we use this in auditing. Say we’re trying to find an engram. Now I do not audit people on the meter.

Carl: OK.

Sally: I do Dianetics exactly the way it is in the book. This is for more advanced auditing. And so this is how they can tell the difference between what’s a release and what’s a Clear. So if say I was asking for an engram or I was asking for a loss, you know, of some kind, or some traumatic thing, the meter is going to tell me when I hit something. I don’t want to say anything that would be a true thing, but if I was asking about certain things that have a possibility of being traumatic, I would be watching for a reaction on the meter. If it doesn’t react on the meter, I’m not going for it. Because there’s either nothing there, or it’s not developed enough, not available to run. But here’s how we give an idea, and that’s a pinch test. So, if it’s OK with you if I pinch you…

Carl: OK.

Sally: Now as I pinch you, watch what the needle does. There, did you see that?

Carl: Oh, interesting.

Sally: Yep. Now, recall the moment of the pinch. Think about when I pinched you, so you can see it again in your mind. There you go. You see it react? Let’s try it again. Think about that pinch again. There’s a little reaction. It should be getting smaller, because it’s not like I gave you an engram there. It’s a pretty minor thing. Think about the pinch again. It’s pretty much cleaned off. But that’s what, in auditing there should be less and less distractions to the electromagnetic flow and then there’s certain meter phenomena that show, it’s like OK you got it, you’re done with that thing.

Carl: OK.

Sally: And that’s called a floating needle, and they’re really quite lovely. The needle just kind of floats back and forth. And that would be an indicator that you are done with whatever thing you are on.

Carl: What exactly do you do after Clear?

Sally: You do, let me see, how do I describe this. You can put the cans down now, unless you want to hold on to them. Well, let me show you this, squeeze real hard. You see how the needle goes over there. Well, we’re going to adjust this, we call this thing the tone arm, to bring it back on the dial. OK, just relax and release your grip. There we go. OK, so once a person’s Clear, no more Reactive Mind. It’s gone.


Carl: OK.

Sally: And that is spectacular. So as Ron kept researching, he realized as soon as people began hitting past lives they began to realize that we were starting to look at something not the mind. That there’s this spiritual essence of a person. And that’s when Scientology was born, because Scientology deals, that’s why Scientology is a religion and Dianetics is not. So, he’s like, Well let’s keep researching, and found that even after Clear there will still be certain energy ridges around a person. That still doesn’t make you aberrated like a reactive mind will, but it can affect your thinking. It can make you think, you know, it’s like, I don’t know, I can’t really describe it that well. But you go after those, and that’s what you do after Clear.

Carl: Are these incidents in past lives?

Sally: No.

Carl: What are they?

Sally: They’re just energy ridges, they aren’t incidents. Isn’t that hard to wrap your wits around? It was really hard to wrap my wits around.

Carl: Oh, then they can be measured on the E-meter if they’re energy?

Sally: You can find them that way and then we have certain procedures where you literally just handle that energy bridge. And now here is my own, this is my win. This is something I’m observing, other people might not observe this I don’t know. What I’m observing though is as I like dismantle and blow apart these various energy ridges because unfortunately there’s a lot of them, that everybody has. You’ve been a spiritual being a very very very very long time.

Carl: How long?

Sally: I don’t know. Time is a physical universe thing, it’s not a spiritual universe thing, so before that. So, I don’t know. Also I don’t know how old you are as a spiritual being. I don’t even know how old I am. But it’s really long. So we’ve had a long time to have things happen to us that we have attitudes about. A lot of those come from engrams, but it turns out not everything comes from an engram. Being a being — have you come across the word ‘thetan’ yet?

Carl: Yes.

Sally: OK, thetan, right? This is just an example. There’s one thing thetans really hate, whether they have a reactive mind or no reactive mind there’s one thing thetans really hate and that is injustice. Injustice happening to them and injustice happening to someone they they love, or something they just observe. And the times we were naughty and we committed injustices, the actual stupid, nasty crap in our history. So that’s like one example of something that really bothers a person and they will have energy ridges around them. And so anyway as you take apart these energy ridges and stuff one’s own ability to perceive, which has been increasing all the way through the auditing to go Clear and then after Clear and it’s like wow, and then you find out it gets even better than that. It’s just like OK, cool. Which you won’t have any reality on until you get there. So there we go. Most people can understand Clear.

Carl: How many stages are there after Clear?

Sally: I’m on seven. Number seven. There are currently eight. There’s more than that, but they aren’t available yet. The world has to be in sort of a different state itself to get those things released. So we call those OT levels which stands for Operating Thetan. So it’s when we are operating more and more and more as a spiritual being and less and less and less like, well, I want to say homo sapiens. So I’m on OT 7. And then OT 8, that’s where my husband is, he’s OT 8.


Carl: Oh, nice.

Sally: I know. He got a head start on me. He was in Scientology before me.

Carl: When you reach OT 8 are all the energy ridges gone?

Sally: I have no idea I’m not there yet.

Carl: Are you near getting rid of all of them currently?

Sally: I don’t really know. I’ll just keep doing my daily sessions until what we refer to as the case supervisor, the person who supervises the auditor part of me, I’ll just keep doing that until she says stop. But I’ll tell you what, the changes for me are happening faster and faster. I’m like, oh my gosh. Buckle my thetan seatbelt, here we go.

Carl: How long have you been on OT 7?

Sally: Three years. OT 7’s a long one. OT 7 is the longest. Which is why you do it at home. And you don’t have to go off to one of the advanced churches in Los Angeles or Florida. Or, see, LA; Clearwater, Florida; East Grinstead, England; Sydney, Australia; oh and there’s the newest one in South Africa. That one’s in a castle. Oh my God, I want to see that place really bad. Oh my God and then there’s two more coming in Toronto, Canada and Mexico City. And these are all places where you learn to do your OT levels, and where you learn to audit yourself.

Carl: OK.

Sally: And you do those levels, so you got to go away for that, that’s fine. But for OT 7, once you learn how to do it, you go home, because it takes years. So, OK.

Carl: Interesting.

Sally: I know. So I have no idea how much longer I’ll be on. I don’t know if I’ll finish by the end of the year, two years, four years, I don’t know. But truthfully I don’t really care even because I’m having a blast. And then people on OT 7 we go down to Clearwater, Florida every six months for what we call a refresher. And we kind of go over all the references again, and you do any correction, you know, like, maybe you messed up a certain thing in your auditing. And you re-study that and do it some more there to make sure you got it. And anyway that’s really cool. So you probably came across the term Flag — I go to Flag, which is in Clearwater. Have you come across why it’s called Flag?

Carl: No.

Sally: OK. You’re just like jumping to the deep end, man, you’re gonna walk out of here knowing, oh my. So, in 1967, that’s when Ron, there were no actual OT levels available yet. He was researching. Everybody knew it was coming. He knew about the state of OT, but there was nothing in place yet to get you there. Anyway, I won’t give you the whole history of how that happened, but he did realize that to deliver these OT levels you’re going to have to be off what he calls ‘the crossroads of life’

so he got a ship. Also at that time, Scientology was still getting attacked by a lot other groups and stuff — all the movements are. All new religions are. These days some of the old religions are. It’s like gosh. But anyway so he bought a ship. And trained a crew how to run a ship, and they were in the Caribbean and then they outgrew that so they got another ship for training auditors, and they got another ship for auditing people, and then they got another, anyway they ended up with a flotilla. So the flagship, which was the ship that L. Ron Hubbard was on, and where he had his research room and stuff, it was — you know what a flagship is like in the Navy, it’s the ship where the boss is.

Carl: Oh, OK.

Sally: That’s the ship that the commander is on. Like in Ukraine, when the Ukrainians blew up that big Russian ship and made such a big deal out of it? It was the Russian flagship that they sank. So that’s why everybody was making a really big deal out of it. So, after many years of that though, then it just got too unwieldy, it’s like, how many boats are you gonna have, you know, sailing around together. So the church bought this place in Clearwater, the Flag Land Base. So it does the same thing that the flagship did, but it’s on land.

Carl: OK.

Sally: So we just call it Flag. So yeah, every six months I go to Flag, and I’m there for a few weeks, and get all brushed up and refreshed and all that and I’m due again in September.

Carl: You have to pay every time you go?

Sally: Yeah.

Carl: How much?

Sally: For that we pay a certain amount to cover the six months of getting supervised. Like I sent reports every two weeks and I get instructions back and so forth. OT 7 is pricey. I pay, what do I pay. Two thousand per visit. But you know my husband and I have been running his remodeling business for years, so it’s like not an issue. So because here’s the other thing, here’s the other piece of that, by the way I don’t know anybody your age who’s on OT 7.

Carl: Yeah, that makes sense.

Sally: Yeah. And I’ve known some people who are like 20, 21. But they also come from well-to-do families, so there. So my husband and I we have paid, one of my sons, the professional auditor, he’s OT 5, my other son, he’s not Clear yet but getting close, and we have paid for more of his auditing and through OT 4. So we’re paying for him. So yeah, the people who are really young doing their OT levels, it’s usually mom and dad, or they’ve inherited a bunch. I do know one guy who was really young and paid for his own OT levels because he was one of these computer whizzes and he developed some software and then sold it for millions of dollars. But here’s the thing, when Ron started training auditors in 1950, because he can’t audit every person on the planet, so he started training auditors, and then foundations and organizations were formed and they were training auditors, well he kept running into barriers, of personal lives and all that, so in Scientology there there are a lot of classes — study as you go on your own terms class — classes on financial management, how to raise kids, how to run business, how to not be an unethical jerk — interestingly that’s, a lot of people do that. In other words, how to make decisions that don’t crash you down, you know? But the big one is how to study. I did that one because when you finish that you can study anything. I needed that at the time.

Carl: Is that something at the beginning of Scientology where it says don’t go past the word that you don’t understand?

Sally: Yes! Dang, you are sharp. Yes, that is exactly where that came from. So, not only have I read this book seven times I’ve had to be able to define every single word in this book.

Carl: How long does that take?


Sally: The first several times I read this I didn’t have to do that. But one time when I read it that was part of the course. And I was able to define, I don’t know that I can do it now, some of these words I don’t really use in everyday life, so I haven’t used them since. But there was a time where you could pick any word in here, ask me what it meant and I could tell you and use it in a sentence.

Carl: Oh, wow, nice.

Sally: I know! So, some of the specialized words, not Scientology words but the, you know, what, he uses a lot of slang in this book, so, I always looked it up at the time I was reading it, I do remember one, ‘fanning a bronc.’ Well, he grew up on a ranch in Montana. Fanning a bronc is when you’re on a bucking bronco, and you’re waving you’re hat around to try and help keep your balance. So fanning a bronc means that you’re waving your hat around as this horse is trying to buck you off. And he listed that as a pleasure thing. And some people do find that pleasurable. I’m not one of them.

Carl: Was L. Ron Hubbard raised in any religion?

Sally: Presbyterian.

Carl: Oh, interesting.

Sally: I don’t know that his family was devout. But at least culturally they were Presbyterians. And he grew up in Helena, Montana, and grandpa had a ranch. There’s even pictures of him like at three years old on this big horse. Not that anybody’s holding on to him either, he’s just on the horse. He’s working, you know? Ranch life. Got on a horse and worked, baby. And somewhere, not in here, somewhere he talks about getting thrown off a horse and somebody in his family giving him a spanking for mistreating the horse. You learn to sit on the horse, you know? It’s very different you know in like 1915 in Montana. It was the frontier. And he talks about, you know, the Native American peoples in the area and just becoming friends, and he wrote a book, a novel, in the 30s called ‘Buckskin Brigades’ and it was really like the first novel that talked about the Old West but from the Indian point of view.

Carl: Oh, was it science fiction?

Sally: No, it was a western. I think the main character is a white guy, but it’s very sympathetic to the Indians and that was unheard of. You know that was still in the days of the only good Indian’s a dead Indian kind of bullshit. So yeah, he broke a lot of molds, but yeah, science fiction is what he was most famous for.

Carl: Do you recommend that I get Battlefield Earth from the library? Because I checked it out one time but I didn’t read it.

Sally: If you like science fiction, then yeah. I love that book.

Carl: But is it like considered scripture in Scientology?

Sally: Not at all. It is science fiction. Now there are things in there that a Scientologist would read and laugh about. He certainly does not like mind control. Ron does not like mind control and so in a couple places where that sort of rears its head he is not nice about it. I love that book. I find it very inspiring and about three quarters of the way through it just kind of, he gives us, like, a plot twist and you’re like…

Carl: What is it?


Sally: I’m not going to tell you. And I was like, what? I don’t want to read about that. Anyway, I found it really good. The movie was terrible, but I loved the book. And then he also wrote a ten-volume series called Mission Earth, now that is eye-opening. You would really need to be up on the condition of the world and stuff like that to see what it what it is he’s poking so much fun at. He’s pretty ruthless.

Carl: Hm.

Sally: OK, so here’s our options. I know you originally called me because you’re interested in the study group so that you could get, you know, learn more and stuff like that. So we have a few options there. With what you’ve been saying it sounds like — tell me if I’m right tell me if I got this right — that you’re interested in basically like extending your knowledge of life and livingness and yourself and stuff, more than coming in here saying ‘I’m broke, fix me.’ I get a lot of people come in like that. You know, ‘I’m broken, fix me. How much? I need auditing.’ That easy. It’s like, OK, I’ll audit you. I never have to think too hard about what does this person want. I wonder if the library still has their copy of the book, ‘Fundamentals of Thought,’ which Ron wrote, it’s actually a collection of his essays…

Carl: I don’t think they have it. I was just there and I looked for Scientology books.

Sally: Do they have anything?

Carl: They have Dianetics and they have the Scientology Handbook and they have some books by former Scientologists.

Sally: Oh, of course. Oh, they have the Scientology Handbook?

Carl: Yes.

Sally: Ooh, wow.

Carl: I checked it out one time but I didn’t really read it very much.

Sally: Yeah, that thing is, that’s like whoomp! That’s got a lot in it, ha! OK. I mean I could sell you a copy of Fundamentals of Thought for twenty dollars, or you could probably ask for an interlibrary loan. The thing with Fundamentals of Thought, the reason I’m recommending that is because because that has a lot of the fundamentals of Scientology but also like practical things that you can do. So that would be one option.

Carl: OK.

Sally: I mean I don’t want to pile a bunch of stuff on you, even though my hope is that you read all of Ron’s what we call the Basic Books.

Carl: I bought some other books too.


Sally: Which ones do you have?

Carl: I think I have several. There’s one called Science of Survival. There’s Dianetics 55. There is one about drugs.

Sally: OK, ‘Clear Body, Clear Mind’?

Carl: Yeah. That one. There’s one called A History of Man.

Sally: Oh jeez, you have A History of Man!

Carl: What’s that one?

Sally: Even I don’t know if I believe some of the stuff in that book. I’m like, really?

Carl: What’s in it?

Sally: A History of Man is basically, after Ron developed the E-meter, and he would have people holding the cans, and start running things and stuff, and you found certain incidents are common to everybody. Certain incidents in the past. Certain types of incidents. You know, like the whole thing about, you know, the between-lives area, you know, one body dies and you get this electronic forgetter thing and then you take a new body and forget your previous life. That’s in there, that kind of thing. So, but there are some of them that are just like, wow, and it says right in the front these are, this is not a statement of claims made. This is a research reference. This is like, this is what was coming up. This is what was coming up on E-meters from everybody. And again there’s some of that stuff, I read that and I go, I don’t remember that. And some of them I go, oh yeah, I remember that. So yeah, that’s a wild one. You are welcome to read that one with a grain of salt or not. It is interesting. OK, so you have Science of Survival. Wow, that’s a big book.

Carl: Yes, it is.

Sally: Best to read Dianetics first.

Carl: Yeah, I read Dianetics first. Well, I haven’t quite finished it.

Sally: Yeah. Because trying to understand Science of Survival without finishing Dianetics…

Carl: Yeah.


Sally: OK, so you have these. Is there anybody else that you’ve been talking to that is interested in Dianetics or Scientology?

Carl: Well, I talk about it with my family but they’re not interested.

Sally: OK. Let’s do this. I’m going to have you keep reading. By any chance do you have ‘Problems of Work’?

Carl: No.

Sally: If you can get your hands on a Fundamentals of Thought, buy it used online or ask the library to get you one. That’s not about Dianetics, that’s more you as the thetan interacting with the world.

Carl: I found this website that claims to have the books of L. Ron Hubbard available for free. Downloads. Is it OK to use that? It’s not an official Scientology website.

Sally: Then I wouldn’t. Because God only knows what they’ve done to them. You can download on Have you been there?

Carl: I’ve been there a little.

Sally: OK, they got a lot of videos, stuff to download, there is that. You know there are there are still people who don’t want Scientology to succeed so I don’t trust them.

Carl: They claim to be like some independent Scientology organization.

Sally: That’s a terrifying thought. I mean, L. Ron Hubbard set up the whole administrative organizational system. So if they’re not willing to be part of that then they’re not really trying to do Scientology or Dianetics Ron style.

Carl: OK.

Sally: I mean I can’t tell you don’t, but I would really not recommend it. Because God only knows what you’re gonna end up with. Maybe you’ll end up with a version, a pre-2007 version — by the way, check the date on your Science of Survival.

Carl: I think it’s 2007.


Sally: OK, good. Of all the books that needed revamping in 2007, Science of Survival, it had been the most mangled. So if it’s 2007, you’re good. There are some DVDs that we could watch. There’s the the one and only televised interview with Ron. So like, 1967, so it’s interesting. I mean, just the clothing is interesting. That he did in South Africa. There’s the Dianetics how-to videos. Anyway there’s just different things. There’s lectures that he did. So there’s things that we could do and that’s how my study group started is we started with those. And you know we’re like way past that, because that was 19 years ago. But like I mentioned on the phone, I used to, pre-pandemic, probably about twice a year do a series for new people that I did on Thursday evenings and we would watch those, like the interview, and and listen to some of the lectures so the person sort of brought up to speed.

Carl: OK.

Sally: And then they would start coming Tuesday to the more advanced group if they wanted. Or they started doing a class at the church in [redacted] or whatever. So we could do some of those, I’d be very happy to watch those with you. Some of them I haven’t seen in, you know, three years. But I like the idea of you keep reading and and get some more of this under your belt.

Carl: OK.

Sally: And, because you’re picking up a lot. You have, I mean obviously you’re literate. As soon as you asked me the other day if people really remember their prenatals then I knew you really were reading Dianetics. Maybe 80 percent of it is going over your head I don’t know, but you’re still way ahead of the average person. Tell you what, let’s touch base in a week.

Carl: Phone call?

Sally: We can have a phone call and see, you know, set up a time to come back over or not depending on how you’re doing and how it’s going and what all the questions you have. It’s been really fun showing you the meter and — oh, I better turn it off. I don’t want the battery to run out. Was there any other thing you’re hoping for today?

Carl: If I ever do find someone who I can audit, should I like take notes at the engrams?

Sally: Yes?

Carl: OK.

Sally: I mean, you don’t have to, it doesn’t talk about it in here.

Carl: OK.

Sally: Those of us who are professionally trained to do this? Yes. Well, this isn’t the current one, but I kept it. This is the old one from, gosh, 1997. I kept it because you know it’s got all these different cheat sheets and drills and stuff like that. But it also has, there’s a worksheet, which is your running record of the session. So, you know, PC’s name, the auditor’s name, when you started, these are command numbers that are covered in here. The incident is an upset with boss, he moves through it, blah blah blah, he runs through it again, there’s a time, oh, is there an earlier incident, go through it again, three more times, preclear is cheerful and laughing at the end, and then it’s like, you know, come to present time, are you in present time. So that’s the worksheet. And then auto report form is just sort of a synopsis of that. If you and somebody were just auditing you would not be required to do any of that. However, I would recommend at least worksheets. So yeah, if you find somebody or somebody who would like to come to, you know, watch some DVDs with me and stuff that’s fine. It’s fine if you don’t.

Carl: I don’t think I’ll find someone.


Sally: That’s fine. Yeah, usually when I get a group it’s usually spouses. I mean that’s how the Dianetics group started. Somebody asked me to audit his girlfriend. She had read Dianetics, he had read Dianetics. He had bought some auditing from me, I started auditing her. And we started listening to this lecture that Ron did about Dianetics. And then they wanted to listen to another one. And then I was like, I think we just started a Dianetics group. And then they brought people in. So anyway that’s how the group started but most people who come to me are brand new people.

Carl: Do you go to the church in [redacted]?

Sally: I don’t go there very much. I only go once a week.

Carl: Do they have like a weekly, is it a Sunday service?

Sally: Yeah, there is a Sunday service, I mean, in all honesty the Sunday service is, like, we’re not a church built on Sunday services. We have Sunday services, but the action mostly takes place in the classroom or the auditing rooms. The Sunday service is more of a community thing. There’s usually, the minister will read an essay of something from L. Ron Hubbard, and read the creed of the church. I don’t know what religion if any that you were raised in, it sort of looks similar to like a Protestant church service. There’s no kneeling. We don’t have a choir, and that’s tragic.

Carl: Are there Scientology songs?

Sally: There are a few. We have our own birthday song that we all sing, or it’s performed professionally, singing happy birthday to L. Ron Hubbard every March. And it is fun being in a new religion, because it’s like we actually have a birthday party. Christmas is great, but it’s not a birthday party. Christians don’t generally have a birthday cake — some do, actually. But mostly not. We do have birthday cake for Ron. So yeah, Sunday services. Now, just so you know I usually go down there Thursday afternoon.

Carl: Are you taking courses there?

Sally: Yeah. In fact I’m trying to finish up a big one, so I’m going to go early next week. You know, we had lockdown, and the church was actually closed for about a year. But it’s open again. If you ever wanted to come down with me, in terms of free stuff there’s when you first walk in the lobby off to one side there’s the information panels with audio visual stuff that has all the various aspects about, you know, auditing the life of L. Ron Hubbard, Study Tech, Criminon our criminal rehab program, Narconon our drug rehab program.

Carl: I’ve heard them advertising on the radio.

Sally: Really, oh wow. Yeah, it has the highest success rate of any of the drug rehab programs. Narconon has a 70 percent success rate, which is like way above everybody else. I heard a lady speak down at Flag a couple months ago, she had just finished OT 7. Young, gorgeous, I mean maybe 30. Like a model, you know. She was from a Scientology family. She said in 2006 she had just gotten out of jail for selling meth. And everybody goes agh! You are not expecting that. She went to Narconon and stayed drug free, and now she is a staff member at the church in [redacted]. Anyway, this was an amazing story about her journey, you know?

Carl: Yeah.

Sally: So anyway in the meantime, keep reading, we’ll touch base next week midweek by phone, OK. I really enjoyed talking to someone who has bothered to read this book. So we will touch base next week, OK. Thank you.



Technology Cocktail

“A vacuum is a super-cold object which, if brought into contact with bank, drinks bank. Objects at 25°F or less have high electrical capacitance, low resistance. This was psychiatry before Earth. Shocks, ether, can act similarly. This is how one mechanically forgets the past. He depends on pictures, loses pictures to a vacuum incident. Vacuums drink up the preclear’s havingness.” — L. Ron Hubbard, 1957



We first broke the news of the LAPD’s investigation of Scientology celebrity Danny Masterson on rape allegations in 2017, and we’ve been covering the story every step of the way since then. At this page we’ve collected our most important links as Danny faces a potential sentence of 45 years to life in prison. NOW WITH TRIAL INDEX.


THE PODCAST: How many have you heard?

— The Underground Bunker Podcast

[1] Marc Headley [2] Claire Headley [3] Jeffrey Augustine [4] Bruce Hines [5] Sunny Pereira [6] Pete Griffiths [7] Geoff Levin [8] Patty Moher [9] Marc Headley [10] Jefferson Hawkins [11] Michelle ‘Emma’ Ryan [12] Paulette Cooper [13] Jesse Prince [14] Mark Bunker [15] Jon Atack [16] Mirriam Francis [17] Bruce Hines on MSH

— SPECIAL: The best TV show on Scientology you never got to see


[1] Phil Jones [2] Derek Bloch [3] Carol Nyburg [4] Katrina Reyes [5] Jamie DeWolf

— SPECIAL: Your Proprietor’s updates on the Danny Masterson trial

[1] Sep 21 [2] Sep 28 [3] Oct 4 [4] Oct 10 [5] Oct 11: Day One [6] Oct 12: Day Two [7] Oct 13: Day Three [8] Oct 17: Day Four [9] Oct 18: Day Five [10] Oct 19: Day Six [11] Special interview with Chris Shelton, Oct 19 [12] Oct 20: Day Seven [13] Oct 21: Day Eight [14] First week in review, with Jeffrey Augustine [15] Oct 24: Day Nine [16] Oct 25: Day Ten [17] Oct 27: Day Eleven [18] Oct 28: Day Twelve [19] Second week in review, with Jeffrey Augustine [20] Halloween special [21] Nov 2: Day Thirteen [22] Nov 3: Day Fourteen [23] Nov 4: Day Fifteen [24] Third week in review [25] Nov 5, Saturday special [26] Nov 6, Sunday special [27] Nov 7, Day Sixteen [28] Lisa Marie Presley breaking news [29] Nov 8, Day Seventeen [30] Nov 9, Day Eighteen [31] Nov 10, Day Nineteen


Source Code

“The one thing by which the communist profits in Australia and Suid-Afrika are the laws against perversion. The state, of all means, is regulating how you are going to perform the sexual act. I think that’s very interesting. I’ve seldom seen any police officers in my bedroom. And I’m afraid if I did they’d have short shrift. Of course, I have had the people the police officers are supposed to restrain trying to crawl into my bedroom windows and a few things like that, you know, but that, of course, they wouldn’t be interested in. Now, what are they doing? They’re just trying to invent some new withholds, aren’t they? I think that’s fascinating, because the communist uses blackmail of this particular kind as a means of controlling heads of state. In other words, if the state itself lends its weight to punishment of withholds, see, it has just laid itself out to be crazy. Because now, anybody in the state can be blackmailed so as to overthrow the state, because the state will punish the overthrow or the withhold. Do you understand this, or any part of this?” — L. Ron Hubbard, February 20, 1962


Avast, Ye Mateys

“LOCAL PROPERTY: I rode the motorcycle Mary Sue gave me for Christmas out to see some property we bought. Arthur Hubbard, my test rider and mechanic in chief, acted as guide on his bike. He took me way out in the green countryside on the excuse he didn’t know any other route to the property. We circled back and found the right place right on the edge of town. Anything for a ride. It’s a very nice property. Several apartments, 18 bedrooms on one upper floor, a dozen garages, a big buss garage, four classrooms and a gym, and a lot of other bits. Our sign is up and well lighted at night. Our caretaker is a very nice chap. The place is well built of stone and masonry, quite pretty in fact. We intended it for light manufacturing but have not put it to use as yet. We own quite a bit of property over the world. Will be acquiring more as well as some countries.” — The Commodore, February 20, 1971


Overheard in the FreeZone


“Once girl on OT II was sent to me. At one point I was looking downward at the meter when out of my peripheral vision I saw a blinding light right where her head was — obviously I’m talking about a theta perception. And I thought to myself, ‘Good lord, WTF!’ Same kind of white light as from welding but it looked like a ball of intense white fire about the size of a marble and lasted about 2 seconds. When I looked up, her face was bright, BRIGHT red, and she was grinning from ear to ear and obviously shocked and could hardly talk. She said, ‘DID YOU SEE THAT!?!’ Where upon I said, ‘I sure the fuck did!’ And we both had a huge laugh. What I thought was a blush on her part however turned out to be a sunburn because it didn’t go away. Her skin stayed reddish the rest of the day, and when I commented on it, she told me ‘You’re all red too!’ and darned if it wasn’t. The problem was that she had overrun OT II and then gone a bit BIs (bad indicators – indicators in the pc that show something is wrong). We located the point where it started, then when I asked what happened just before that, she located the point where she had released (and subsequently overrun) and the charge that had built up burned off all at once, which can happen. I did some research on this and found that LRH does talk about that happening now and then when he was researching into OT in the early 1950s. Facsimiles can ignite and burn releasing radiation. Anyway, when was the last time you were talking to someone and they thought of something and as a result you got sunburned?”


Past is Prologue

2002: Keith Henson reported a protest at Toronto’s Scientology org. “Arel was in town, a new person wanted to picket, so 5 of us picketed from noon to two pm. I was across the street and gave out over 100 Xenu flyers. Martin LeMoine was part of the Sea Org when it infiltrated into Clearwater and at one time was the ED of the Montreal org. He and his family went ‘clear’ together but never got into the OT levels because he wanted his friends and family to go up the ‘bridge’ together. Martin was immediately recognized by Bobby Hill and Val Hill. Bob and Val were very busy trying to steer the latest scientology recruits away from the picketing SPs. The org seems to have switched from Saturday courses to Sunday to keep the raw meat from the enturbulation of pickets.”


Random Howdy

“All you need to do to strike spiritual gold is to tell the mutant killer apes with the over-developed brain stems that death is not the end and that they’re more than just another species of animal.”


Full Court Press: What we’re watching at the Underground Bunker

Criminal prosecutions:
Danny Masterson charged for raping three women: Mistrial declared November 30. Retrial scheduled, jury selection begins March 29. Next pretrial hearing: Feb 16.
‘Lafayette Ronald Hubbard’ (a/k/a Justin Craig), aggravated assault, plus drug charges: Grand jury indictments include charges from an assault while in custody. Next pretrial hearing Feb 13.
Rizza Islam, Medi-Cal fraud: Trial scheduled for March 1 in Los Angeles
David Gentile, GPB Capital, fraud: Next status conference Feb 13.

Civil litigation:
Baxter, Baxter, and Paris v. Scientology, alleging labor trafficking: Complaint filed April 28 in Tampa federal court, Scientology moving to compel arbitration. Plaintiffs filed amended complaint on August 2. Hearing November 17 to argue the arbitration motions, awaiting ruling.
Valerie Haney v. Scientology: Forced to ‘religious arbitration.’ Selection of arbitrators underway. Next court hearing: March 15, 2023.
Chrissie Bixler et al. v. Scientology and Danny Masterson: Appellate court removes requirement of arbitration on January 19, case remanded back to Superior Court. Stay in place at least through February 7.
Author Steve Cannane defamation trial: New trial ordered after appeals court overturned prior ruling.
Chiropractors Steve Peyroux and Brent Detelich, stem cell fraud: Lawsuit filed by the FTC and state of Georgia in August, now in discovery phase.



After the success of their double-Emmy-winning, three-season A&E series ‘Scientology and the Aftermath,’ Leah Remini and Mike Rinder continue the conversation on their podcast, ‘Scientology: Fair Game.’ We’ve created a landing page where you can hear all of the episodes so far.


An episode-by-episode guide to Leah Remini’s three-season, double-Emmy winning series that changed everything for Scientology watching. Originally aired from 2016 to 2019 on the A&E network, and now on Netflix.


Find your favorite Hubbardite celeb at this index page — or suggest someone to add to the list!

Other links: SCIENTOLOGY BLACK OPS: Tom Cruise and dirty tricks. Scientology’s Ideal Orgs, from one end of the planet to the other. Scientology’s sneaky front groups, spreading the good news about L. Ron Hubbard while pretending to benefit society. Scientology Lit: Books reviewed or excerpted in a weekly series. How many have you read?


[ONE year ago] What Scientology’s happy propaganda doesn’t tell you about its Florida ‘spiritual mecca’
[TWO years ago] Has Scientology’s cruise ship, the Freewinds, made its last voyage?
[THREE years ago] Blacks not ready for the vote: L. Ron Hubbard’s damning 1960 harangue supporting apartheid
[FOUR years ago] Tony Ortega: Musician, songwriter, and steel executive, 1938-2019
[FIVE years ago] How L. Ron Hubbard tried to hoax the FBI, and ‘brainwashed’ politicians of the far right
[SIX years ago] Louis Farrakhan: Nation of Islam will stand by Scientology as Leah Remini ‘goes in hard’
[SEVEN years ago] Why Scientology’s petition to the Texas Supreme Court mentions a dildo, and other surprises
[EIGHT years ago] Scientology’s Orwellian methods of control explained in a new book by Jefferson Hawkins
[NINE years ago] Scott Pilutik helps us evaluate Scientology’s petition to Texas appeals court
[TEN years ago] Oklahoma Drug Rehab Bill Passes Senate: Scientology’s Narconon Days Numbered?
[ELEVEN years ago] Scientology’s OT Powers! A Hubbard Holiday Miracle


Scientology disconnection, a reminder

Bernie Headley (1952-2019) did not see his daughter Stephanie in his final 5,667 days.
Valerie Haney has not seen her mother Lynne in 2,946 days.
Katrina Reyes has not seen her mother Yelena in 3,451 days
Sylvia Wagner DeWall has not seen her brother Randy in 3,001 days.
Brian Sheen has not seen his grandson Leo in 1,991 days.
Geoff Levin has not seen his son Collin and daughter Savannah in 1,882 days.
Christie Collbran has not seen her mother Liz King in 5,186 days.
Clarissa Adams has not seen her parents Walter and Irmin Huber in 3,057 days.
Doug Kramer has not seen his parents Linda and Norm in 2,162 days.
Jamie Sorrentini Lugli has not seen her father Irving in 4,639 days.
Quailynn McDaniel has not seen her brother Sean in 3,951 days.
Dylan Gill has not seen his father Russell in 12,517 days.
Melissa Paris has not seen her father Jean-Francois in 8,436 days.
Valeska Paris has not seen her brother Raphael in 4,604 days.
Mirriam Francis has not seen her brother Ben in 4,185 days.
Claudio and Renata Lugli have not seen their son Flavio in 4,446 days.
Sara Goldberg has not seen her daughter Ashley in 3,483 days.
Lori Hodgson has not seen her son Jeremy and daughter Jessica in 3,198 days.
Marie Bilheimer has not seen her mother June in 2,762 days.
Julian Wain has not seen his brother Joseph or mother Susan in 1,077 days.
Charley Updegrove has not seen his son Toby in 2,252 days.
Joe Reaiche has not seen his daughter Alanna Masterson in 6,803 days
Derek Bloch has not seen his father Darren in 3,934 days.
Cindy Plahuta has not seen her daughter Kara in 4,272 days.
Roger Weller has not seen his daughter Alyssa in 9,127 days.
Claire Headley has not seen her mother Gen in 4,246 days.
Ramana Dienes-Browning has not seen her mother Jancis in 2,602 days.
Mike Rinder has not seen his son Benjamin and daughter Taryn in 6,905 days.
Brian Sheen has not seen his daughter Spring in 3,011 days.
Skip Young has not seen his daughters Megan and Alexis in 3,409 days.
Mary Kahn has not seen her son Sammy in 3,285 days.
Lois Reisdorf has not seen her son Craig in 2,868 days.
Phil and Willie Jones have not seen their son Mike and daughter Emily in 3,363 days.
Mary Jane Barry has not seen her daughter Samantha in 3,617 days.
Kate Bornstein has not seen her daughter Jessica in 14,726 days.


Posted by Tony Ortega on February 20, 2023 at 07:00

E-mail tips to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We also post updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our new book with Paulette Cooper, Battlefield Scientology: Exposing L. Ron Hubbard’s dangerous ‘religion’ is now on sale at Amazon in paperback and Kindle formats. Our book about Paulette, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

The Best of the Underground Bunker, 1995-2021 Just starting out here? We’ve picked out the most important stories we’ve covered here at the Underground Bunker (2012-2021), The Village Voice (2008-2012), New Times Los Angeles (1999-2002) and the Phoenix New Times (1995-1999)

Other links: BLOGGING DIANETICS: Reading Scientology’s founding text cover to cover | UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists | GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice | SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts | Shelly Miscavige, 15 years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Watch our short videos that explain Scientology’s controversies in three minutes or less…

Check your whale level at our dedicated page for status updates, or join us at the Underground Bunker’s Facebook discussion group for more frivolity.

Our non-Scientology stories: Robert Burnham Jr., the man who inscribed the universe | Notorious alt-right inspiration Kevin MacDonald and his theories about Jewish DNA | The selling of the “Phoenix Lights” | Astronomer Harlow Shapley‘s FBI file | Sex, spies, and local TV news | Battling Babe-Hounds: Ross Jeffries v. R. Don Steele


Tony Ortega at The Daily Beast


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