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Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s post-Aftermath podcast: ‘Scientology: Fair Game’

After the success of their double-Emmy-winning, three-season A&E series ‘Scientology and the Aftermath,’ Leah Remini and Mike Rinder continue the conversation on their podcast, ‘Scientology and Fair Game.’

Here are the episodes so far…



Episode 21: Listener questions part 3

Released: December 22, 2020

“The listener questions this week include how scientology is responding to Covid, scientology’s views on voting and many more.”


Episode 20: Yulanda Williams

Released: December 15, 2020

Says Mike: “Yulanda has an incredible story that was only touched upon briefly in her appearance in the final regular episode of The Aftermath Season 3 Episode 13, ‘Church and State’….Yulanda’s parents joined Jim Jones’s People’s Temple when she was young, and she eventually ended up in Guyana, where Jones told his followers he was creating the utopian society. Her story of how her family became involved and her escape prior to the tragedy is riveting. And the parallels between the People’s Temple and scientology are quite obvious.”


Episode 19: Christie Collbran

Released: December 8, 2020


Christie Collbran’s family disconnection is a heartbreaking story and it was featured both in the New York Times (in 2010) and on Leah Remini’s series, “Scientology and the Aftermath.” Unfortunately, her portion of the episode mainly about her husband, Mike Rinder, was cut from what A&E broadcast, but you can still see it at A&E’s website and it might be a good idea to review it before listening to her appearance this week on Leah’s podcast.


Episode 18: Mary Kahn

Released: November 24, 2020

Mary Kahn’s episode in the first season of Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath was particularly special to us for a couple of reasons. First, there was a heavy emphasis on former Sea Org members in the series, and for good reason. The way Sea Org members had been treated was horrific, and had become the focus of an FBI investigation. The defection of several high-ranking former Sea Org officials was the biggest challenge to David Miscavige’s leadership in decades. However, most Scientologists aren’t Sea Org members and so Mary Kahn’s experience as a “public” Scientologist, who had been targeted with disconnection because she dared to break away, was an eye-opening departure for the show. And it was also the episode that we saw Mike Rinder break down after hearing what Mary had been through, and that made for some really remarkable TV.


Episode 17: Claire Headley

Released: November 17, 2020


We’ll be forever indebted to Claire Headley for helping us out on our 2013 series here at the Bunker, “Up the Bridge,” which took us step by step through Scientology’s “Bridge to Total Freedom” and its nutty courses and auditing levels. Claire and her husband Marc were also stars in Leah’s A&E series, Scientology and the Aftermath (see photo), and they also were key to one of the most important pieces of Scientology journalism of all time, the story by Joe Childs and Tom Tobin at the Tampa Bay Times revealing that Scientology was forcing women in the Sea Org to get abortions.


Episode 16: ex-Jehovah’s Witness activist Lloyd Evans

Released: November 10, 2020

Says Mike Rinder: “It’s always a pleasure to speak with Lloyd Evans. He is so knowledgeable, articulate and even-keeled. He helped us put together the Jehovah’s Witness special on The Aftermath, and is a valued supporter of our efforts to expose the abuses in scientology, while he carries out his work doing the same with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.”


Episode 15: Former Narconon president Lucas Catton

Released: November 3, 2020


Luke was at one time was president of Scientology’s flagship drug rehab facility, Narconon Arrowhead in Oklahoma. We first met him when he came to New York in 2013 to film an episode of Rock Center about Scientology’s deceptive rehab racket. And he was a key source for us on a lot of Narconon stories over the years.


Episode 14: Listener Questions 2

Released: October 27, 2020

Says Mike Rinder: “The topics this week include: Why is Scientology popular with dentists? What happened to Pat and Annie Broeker? Does David Miscavige know how loathed he is in the real world? And much more.”


Episode 13: Listener Questions 1

Released: October 20, 2020


Leah and Mike take listener questions this week and answer that eternal question we’ve been hearing now for years: What’s with Leah’s fingernails? Says Mike: “We asked you for questions and you came through! Many more than we could possibly answer in a single episode. So, we will no doubt do more of these. Your question may have made the list this week. We covered a broad range of topics, from scientologists coming back after death, to the 411 on Leah’s fingernails.”


Episode 12: Mark Bunker and Clearwater

Released: October 13, 2020

Mark Bunker’s election to the Clearwater city council was a stunning moment, to be sure. And we’ve been documenting, with Mark’s help, how much the Church of Scientology is freaking out about his electoral victory. In this week’s podcast, Leah and Mike are reunited with Bunker for another episode of their podcast.


Episode 11: Mark Vicente and Nxivm

Released: October 6, 2020

Leah and Mike provide a real treat this week for viewers who have been watching the HBO series about Nxivm, “The Vow.” Mark Vicente is not only a key figure in the series, he was also a key witness in the federal trial that Dianne Lipson covered for us last year. They talk to Vicente about the parallels between Nxivm and Scientology, which became very clear in the HBO series.


Episode 10: Attorney Ray Jeffrey

Released: September 29, 2020

Leah and Mike have one of our favorite people on their podcast this week, Texas attorney Ray Jeffrey, who has made plenty of Scientology lawyers break out in a cold sweat. After tangling with the church numerous times in court, he has continued to be a valuable resource for people suing Scientology, and we’ve still never seen anyone in court who is smoother in the face of Scientology’s infuriating tactics.


Episode 9: Australian journalist Steve Cannane

Released: September 22, 2020

If you were fortunate enough to be with us at HowdyCon in Denver, you will remember that we asked Steve Cannane to speak at our Saturday event, and he used the occasion to respond to the sliming he’d just received from Marty Rathbun, who was once again doing Scientology’s dirty work with a set of slick videos he put out beginning that year. Rathbun took shots at Cannane’s definitive book on Scientology in Australia, titled ‘Fair Game,’ ironically enough. Steve is still taking shots over his excellent book. We’ve told you recently about the strange defamation trial he went through in Sydney, a lawsuit that would never happen in the U.S., as Cannane was asked to prove allegations in a royal commission he quoted from that had taken place 30 years earlier.


[Ray Jeffrey, Karen de la Carriere, and Mike]

Episode 8: Karen de la Carriere

Released: September 15, 2020

A former Class XII auditor who trained under Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard himself, Karen was also married to Church of Scientology president Heber Jentzsch, and they had a son, Alexander. Alexander was forced to disconnect from his mother after she began to go public with her distancing from the church in 2010. A couple of years later, one of the most harrowing experiences we had while editing the Village Voice was hearing from Karen that she had learned that her son was dead. And not only had she been kept from the news that he had been ill, but then the church did what it could to keep her away from any arrangements about her son’s remains or a memorial. To this day, Scientology smears Karen about has much as they do any other former Scientologist, and Leah and Mike talk with her about what that’s been like in another remarkable episode of this podcast.


Episode 7: Alex Gibney

Released: September 8, 2020

We certainly remember, as the date neared for the premiere of the documentary ‘Going Clear’ at the Sundance Film Festival in Utah in January 2015, that Scientology leader David Miscavige was beginning to freak out. It was really something to see Scientology take out full-page ads in the New York Times denouncing the film even before anyone had a chance to see it. We’ve always been curious about what Gibney thought of that harassment campaign, and so it’s a real treat to hear him discuss it with Leah and Mike.


Episode 6: Ron Miscavige

Released: September 1, 2020

Leah and Mike talk with Ron Miscavige, father to Scientology’s leader David Miscavige and author of the 2016 book ‘Ruthless: Scientology, My Son David Miscavige, And Me.’ And not only did the three of them get into David Miscavige’s surveillance campaign of his own father, but they also talk about a strange consequence of that spying campaign that involved an impounded laptop computer and the secrets it held.


Episode 5: The targeting of Mike Rinder

Released: August 25, 2020

What starts out as an episode about the general background of Scientology’s “Fair Game” retaliation operations soon settles down into the specific ways that Mike Rinder was targeted after he left the Sea Org in 2007, and it’s a harrowing adventure.


Episode 4: Paulette Cooper

Released: August 18, 2020

No matter how many times we’ve heard it, we’re still astonished by what Paulette went through after daring to write a critical book about L. Ron Hubbard and his movement, The Scandal of Scientology, in 1971. Sued 19 times by Scientology, from the end of 1969 until a court settlement in 1985, Paulette was the target of the most elaborate, repetitive, nasty, and most relentless campaign of Scientology intimidation and psychological warfare in history.


Episode 3: Richard Behar

Released: August 11, 2020

What a treat as Leah and Mike spoke with journalist Rich Behar for their podcast. Rich, of course, wrote perhaps the single most important investigation of Scientology of all time with his May 1991 Time magazine article that called Scientology the “Thriving cult of greed and power,” and which proved to be a watershed in church history: Scientology has been shrinking ever since.


[Heber Jentzsch and John Travolta]

Episode 2: Tammy Clark

Released: August 4, 2020

Leah and Mike decided to make an episode of ‘Aftermath’ by taking Tammy Clark to see her uncle, Scientology ‘President’ Heber Jentzsch. What unfolded, with the Riverside County Sheriff’s Office playing foil, was scary and crazy-making. What made the episode thrilling, for example, was that one of the Sheriff’s office employees agreed to speak — just off camera, concealing their identity — in order to confirm what Leah and Mike knew, that the Sheriff’s Office was complicit with Scientology and essentially terrified of trying to police the base. Unfortunately, the episode never aired. But now, for the first time, Leah and Mike can explain what happened with Tammy in a conversation with her.


Episode 1: Scientology deaths and suicides

Released: July 28, 2020

In the wake of such tragic news as the cancer death of Kelly Preston and suicide of Benjamin Keough, Mike and Leah say they’ve been getting a lot of questions about Scientology and sickness, depression, and death. And the most powerful statement Leah makes in the hour-long episode is that for Scientologists all ailments, including cancer, only happen because they have been exposed to something that opposes their church. You are sick because you have become a “potential trouble source” (PTS) and you are connected to “suppression” — something or someone against Scientology.


Episode 0: Introducing Scientology’s “Fair Game”

Released: July 21, 2020

Numbered in the grand Scientology tradition as episode zero, for an hour the duo we got to know so well in their three-season A&E series Scientology and the Aftermath picked up pretty much where they left off last year, with Leah expressing exasperation over the things Scientology gets away with and Mike calmly explaining how things work both in Scientology and in law enforcement as far as “fair gaming” Scientology’s perceived enemies.

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