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Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s post-Aftermath podcast: ‘Scientology: Fair Game’

After the success of their double-Emmy-winning, three-season A&E series ‘Scientology and the Aftermath,’ Leah Remini and Mike Rinder continue the conversation on their podcast, ‘Scientology and Fair Game.’

Here are the episodes so far…



Episode 79: Tony Ortega

Released: March 8, 2022

Says Mike: “We welcome our old friend Tony Ortega back to the Fair Game podcast to talk about the current state of Scientology, their ongoing financial crimes and the devastation COVID 19 has wrought on their information control. Tony is a gold mine of information about the cult, and our chat was no exception.”


Episode 78: Roberta Blevins

Released: March 1, 2022

Says Mike: “We spoke with Roberta Blevins, a former member of a Multi-Level-Marketing (MLM) scam known as LuLaRoe. The similarities between MLM’s and cults are legion. Peer pressure. Information control. Even Fair Game tactics. Roberta discusses her experiences and her work today as a whistleblower against what she calls ‘Commercial Cults.’ Her story gives an insight into this world and she is an engaging voice warning others not to get trapped as she was.”


Episode 77: Dylan Gill

Released: February 22, 2022


Says Mike: “We talk to Dylan Gill, former executive of Church of Spiritual Technology (CST) about the organization established to preserve Hubbard’s words in the event of a nuclear holocaust for all future civilizations, what the symbols etched into the ground mean, the various homes built for Hubbard after his death that are maintained to this day, and much more.”


Episode 76: Jefferson Hawkins

Released: February 15, 2022

Says Mike: “We are joined by Jeff Hawkins, an extremely talented, thoughtful and articulate former Sea Org member to recount his experiences with David Miscavige, his role in making Dianetics a bestseller again the 80’s and his journey into and out of scientology. He is the author of 3 books on the subject.”


Episode 75: Aharon Friedman

Released: February 8, 2022

Says Mike: “Aharon Friedman is a professor of Physics and Electrical Engineering, a former scientologist and today serves on the Board of the Israeli Center for Cults’ Victims. Unlike L. Ron Hubbard, he really IS a nuclear physicist, his official title is Head – Schlesinger Knowledge Center for Accelerators and Radiation Sources. We talk about his experiences in scientology, what drove him to escape and his work helping victims of cults today.”



Episode 74: Marc Headley

Released: February 1, 2022

Says Mike: “We welcome back our old friend Marc Headley to talk about Scientology and the internet, including covering the bonkers domain names scientology has registered, and how they have unsuccessfully attempted to control access to information on the World Wide Web.”


Episode 73: Julian Wain on WISE

Released: January 25, 2022

Says Mike: “We speak to our old friend and Leah family member Julian Wain about his experiences with WISE (World Institute of Scientology Enterprises) companies and how they implement high pressure sales techniques into dental and chiropractic offices, and are recruitment agencies for Scientology.”



Episode 72: Andreas Heldal-Lund

Released: January 18, 2022

Says Mike: “This week we have a treat — we talk with the creator of Operation Clambake, and one of the earliest non-scientologists to go head-to-head with scientology in the fledgling days of the internet. We cover how he got involved and why and some of the key things that have happened along the way.”


Episode 71: Stefani Hutchison

Released: January 11, 2022

Says Mike: “In this episode, we cover some of the sleuth work Stefani has done, investigating the claims made by Scientology and their front groups. It is pretty conclusive evidence that when Scientology claims they are ‘working with the Red Cross’ or had a ‘partnership with…’ or ‘they handed out…’ it is a lie.”


Episode 70: Listener questions, part 10

Released: January 4, 2022


Says Mike: “We start 2022 with one of our favorites, a Listener Question episode. As always, we cover a wide scope of topics, from Fair Game campaign tactics to preserving Hubbard’s ‘legacy’ on stainless steel plates in titanium capsules in nuclear-bomb-proof vaults, and the embarrassing ‘We Stand Tall’ song.”


Episode 69: Claire Headley on KRs

Released: December 21, 2021

Says Mike: “We continue our discussion from last week about Committees of Evidence with Claire Headley, now covering the snitch culture of scientology and the subject of Knowledge Reports. It is one of the most important control mechanisms within the scientology world. As we normally do, I have included documents that give the whole story of things we mention.”


Episode 68: Claire Headley on Committees of Evidence

Released: December 14, 2021

Says Mike: “We talk to our old friend and Aftermath OG Claire Headley again this week, this time to discuss Committees of Evidence. What are they exactly, our personal experiences convening, participating and being victims of them, and how they differ from arbitration. We have quite a lot of documents to go along with this episode — a great repository of information for future reference.”



Episode 68: Chris Shelton

Released: December 7, 2021

Says Mike: “This week we talk to our old friend Chris Shelton about cult apologists. These are the people who make a career (often lucrative) out of offering expert academic opinions in support of “New Religious Movements” — cults. It’s a racket that scientology has used to gain credibility. We cover a lot of ground here. Chris has recently published a series of articles on this topic on Tony Ortega’s blog — they are well-worth reading.”


Episode 67: Listener questions, part 9

Released: November 23, 2021

Says Mike: “We have a lot of great questions, including what the organization does with all the money it makes? Are the PI’s Scientologists? What would happen if we tried to rejoin Scientology? What is the most bizarre Hubbard policy? What’s the story with Mimi Rogers? Does David Miscavige tune in? And a lot more.”



Episode 66: Pastor Willy Rice

Released: November 16, 2021

Says Mike: “We welcome Dr. Willy Rice, Senior Pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater to the podcast. Willy has been one of the few community leaders who has taken a strong, public stance against the abuses of Scientology. We talk about the influence of Scientology in the community and the lie that you can a Christian and a Scientologist.”


Episode 65: Aaron Kaufman

Released: November 9, 2021

Says Mike: “This week we talk to filmmaker Aaron Kaufman. He is known for producing Robert Rodriguez films, and more recently for directing the documentary on Jehovah’s Witnesses for Vice TV Crusaders. Aaron was raised a JW and his doc focuses on the data base of sex abusers the JW’s have which they have refused to make public. Plenty of Scientology parallels in this discussion.”


Episode 64: Tory Christman

Released: November 2, 2021


Says Mike: “Her story covers the gamut — OSA dirty tricks, disconnection, the Lisa McPherson Trust, being Fair Gamed and a whole lot more. It is one of those episodes that might have continued for many hours. She is such a bright, smart and kind person, especially in light of all she has been through.”


Episode 63: Nora Ames

Released: October 26, 2021

Says Mike: “This week we welcome Nora Ames, former SO member and outspoken whistleblower concerning the hypocrisy of Scientology’s rampant homophobia. She has one of the most incredible and harrowing escape from the Sea Org stories. We cover it in some detail, as well as what she did to get her mother out of Scientology. Both her father and mother were scientology Guardian Office workers.”


Episode 62: Amy Scobee

Released: October 19, 2021

Says Mike: “This week we welcome our dear friend Amy Scobee to talk about scientology and celebrities. Amy was in charge of scientology Celebrity Centres for many years. She has a lot of personal experience about how scientology treats its biggest celebrities. She was also the catalyst for The Aftermath when she reached out with the story of her mother, Bonnie. They were featured in the first episode.”



Episode 61: Julian Wain and The Delphian school

Released: October 12, 2021

Says Mike: “We welcome back Julian Wain, who appeared with his wife Katherine in Episode 49. This time we talk about the Delphian schools — Julian both attended and taught there. These are indoctrination schools for Scientology, and recruitment pools for the Sea Org, despite the claims they make publicly.”


Episode 60: Aaron Smith-Levin

Released: October 5, 2021

Says Mike: “In this episode we talk to our old friend Aaron Smith-Levin about a wide variety of topics, including the status of Goliath the SP dog, but focus on his announcement that he is running to be elected to the Clearwater City Council and the activities of the Aftermath Foundation. Aaron appeared in the original season of The Aftermath, in one of the more memorable episodes.”



Episode 59: Listener questions, part 8

Released: September 28, 2021

Says Mike: “This is a special edition of Listener Questions. Leah and I recorded this when I was in LA recently. As usual, we cover a lot of ground from why any OT would wear glasses and a question about Tom Cruise’s bravery to High Crimes and the traits of an SP and even an answer that shocked Leah about something Hubbard claimed about himself. Hoping to have some video clips of us recording the episode to add to this post and put on social media today or tomorrow.”


Episode 58: Nicole Norton & Becky Lovell, inside RA MA and Guru Jagat

Released: September 21, 2021

Says Mike: “Nicole Norton and Becky Lovell are whistleblowers, exposing the abuses of the RA MA Institute for Applied Yogic Science and Technology and its leader Guru Jagat (Katie Griggs). The stories of abuse, money motivation and a culture of worship of the guru are reminiscent of Scientology and so many other high-control organizations. Becky and Nicole reached out to us to tell their stories after watching The Aftermath. We had planned to do this show for some time, but scheduling issues delayed it. In the meantime, Katie Griggs died of a pulmonary embolism following surgery on her ankle. It doesn’t change the facts or the real abuses that have occurred any more than the death of L. Ron Hubbard ended the abuses of Scientology.”


Episode 57: Gary ‘Jackson’ Morehead

Released: September 14, 2021


Says Mike: “This week we have the great pleasure of speaking with Gary “Jackson” Morehead, the former head of security at the confidential scientology headquarters near Hemet in Riverside County California. We cover the efforts taken to prevent Sea Org members from leaving, both physical and mental, what the “Blow Drill” consists of, what a ‘Life History’ is and plenty more. Jackson joined us for an episode of The Aftermath, Season 2 Episode 5 The Rise of David Miscavige, his story is one of the most gut-wrenching in the entire series.”


Episode 56: Mat Pesch

Released: August 31, 2021

Says Mike: “One of our favorites joins us this week, Mat Pesch. Mat was formerly in charge of the money-making and money control divisions at the Flag Land Base — the single largest source of revenue for Scientology on earth. Mat joined us on The Aftermath S 2 Ep 9 The Business of Religion. His no nonsense explanations of the inner-workings of the Scientology business machine are at times humorous, but always horrifying.”


Episode 55: Ian Rafalko and Dylan Follo

Released: August 24, 2021

Says Mike: “We have a special treat this week. Leah and I talk with Ian Rafalko and Dylan Follo. Ian became an internet sensation when he posted a TikTok video about his father, Scientologist chiropractor Eric Berg. His message has been viewed by millions. Ian met Dylan when they were training as auditors at Flag in Clearwater to return to their Ideal Orgs in Atlanta and NY respectively. They are the first people we have spoken to who have actually been on staff inside an Ideal Org and their experiences are pretty shocking. Ian’s family has been torn apart and his wife chose Scientology over him. Dylan returned to his org as a Class V auditor, but there were no public to audit, so he was called before a Committee of Evidence for ‘low production.'”



Episode 54: The Sea Org, with Hana Whitfield

Released: August 17, 2021

Says Mike: “Hana Whitfield is such a pleasure to talk to. One of the nicest, kindest people I have had the pleasure of knowing, she is also one of the most interesting. She helped us on The Aftermath, appearing on the episode ‘The Life and Lies of L. Ron Hubbard’ (S2 E 13). Hana joined the Sea Org before it was the Sea Org (it was originally named the Sea Project) in 1967, and went on to Captain various Sea Org ships and bases. We do a deep dive into the early years of the formation of the SO, her recollections of Hubbard, his ‘Mission Into Time’ and much more.”


Episode 53: Listener questions, part 7

Released: August 10, 2021

Says Mike: “This time we try our best to answer questions about who does the Fair Gaming, what is CCHR, how Scientology views the disabled, what PTSness is, The Duke of Chug, Scientology’s sense of humor and much more.”



Episode 52: The Bridge deep dive, part 3, with Vicki Marshall

Released: August 3, 2021

Says Mike: Says Mike: “This week we are joined by Leah’s mother, Vicki, to discuss the OT levels. Vicki achieved the very pinnacle of Scientology auditing, doing OT 8 on the Scientology cruise ship Freewinds. We talk about the earlier OT levels and our experiences on them and then Vicki’s recollections of OT VIII. Suffice to say, it was underwhelming.”


Episode 51: The Bridge deep dive with Bruce Hines, part 2

Released: July 27, 2021

Says Mike: “We continue breaking down the Bridge to total Freedom towards the level of Clear with Bruce Hines. It’s the stairway to heaven with turnstiles at every step. The State of Clear — halfway up the Bridge. What is the E-Meter?”


Episode 50: The Bridge deep dive with Bruce Hines, part 1

Released: July 20, 2021


Says Mike: “We earlier had Jon Atack join us for two episodes taking a deeper look into the life of L. Ron Hubbard. This week, our old friend Bruce Hines joins us for Part 1 (of 3) where we take a look at the scientology “Bridge to Total Freedom” in more detail. In this episode we address the lower levels of the Bridge. Bruce was a highly trained scientology “Auditor” (counselor) and “Case Supervisor” (one who oversees auditors to ensure they are following the words of Hubbard exactly).”


Episode 49: Katherine and Julian Wain

Released: July 13, 2021

Says Mike: “Katherine is the sister of William Kilmartin. William was previously married to Leah’s sister Shannon. When Leah and her family left Scientology, William refused to disconnect, as a result his Scientology family members all disconnected from him, including his sisters and parents. William was then officially adopted into Leah’s family and is now Leah’s adopted brother. It’s a bit unusual and sort of complicated so I wanted to make sure it was clear up front here. After moving away from the LA area, Katherine and her husband reconnected with William and Leah last year. This episodes highlights just how insane the world of scientology is and how it literally destroys families.”


Episode 48: Listener questions, part 6

Released: July 6, 2021

Says Mike: “As always, we cover a lot of ground, though not nearly all the questions you have submitted. This time we try our best to answer questions about how many scientologists are left, why scientology is so “white,” should scientology celebrities be boycotted, the front groups of scientology, Applied Scholastics schools, Degraded Beings, Dilettantes and more. It’s a lot of stuff!”



Episode 47: The Life and Lies of L. Ron Hubbard, Part 2

Released: June 29, 2021

Says Mike: “We continue with our deep dive into the life and lies of Hubbard with Jon Atack. Once again, we have quite a lot of documents to include — but always at the top of the list are Jon’s ‘Let’s Sell These People A Piece of Blue Sky’ and ‘Barefaced Messiah’ by Russell Miller.”


Episode 46: The Life and Lies of L. Ron Hubbard, Part 1

Released: June 22, 2021

Says Mike: “We broke this into two parts, the first focused on Hubbard’s life and claims up to Dianetics. Even in two episodes we can only touch upon some of the highlights (lowlights?) as there is a great deal to know. If you have not already done so, I highly recommend reading both Jon Atack’s ‘Piece of Blue Sky’ and Russell Miller’s ‘Barefaced Messiah’.”



Episode 45: Brian Sheen

Released: June 15, 2021

Says Mike: “I have known Brian since the days of the Apollo, when he was training to be the senior Case Supervisor for the Advanced Org in the UK. He had an experience with Flag that ended his involvement in Scientology and went on to get a PhD, but because his former wife and daughter were still in Scientology, never spoke out about Scientology. The story of how he came to be declared and his daughter disconnecting from him (she married into scientology’s wealthy elite, the son of the Atkinson-Bakers) is typically tragic but especially insane. Scientology literally created another enemy. His fight to get her back has been heroic and continues to this day.”


Episode 44: Sheriff Nick Hanna

Released: June 8, 2021

Says Mike: “What an enormous pleasure it was to speak to the Sheriff of Tom Green County, Texas, Nick Hanna. He recounted the incredible story of his work (and that of many others) in discovering, investigating and prosecuting the criminal activities and abuses in a compound of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints on a ranch (the YFZ Ranch ‘Yearning For Zion’) in the small town of Eldorado Texas in 2003.”


Episode 43: Jeffrey Augustine

Released: June 1, 2021


Says Mike: “This week we have the pleasure of speaking with whistleblower, investigator, researcher and friend Jeffrey Augustine. Jeff does great work tracking and exposing Scientology, especially in the realm of financial crimes. This episode contains a rundown of Scientologist criminals and their legal troubles and the juxtaposition with the public claims of Scientology being the most ethical group on earth.”


Episode 42: Listener questions, part 5

Released: May 25, 2021

Says Mike: “We answered more “Listener Questions” this week. These are some of our favorite episodes and we really appreciate the questions people send in. This one was especially fun and I think you all will enjoy it. We talk about the last chapter of Hubbard’s life which is documented in the Epilogue of Lawrence Wright’s brilliant Going Clear.”


Episode 41: Taylor Holley

Released: May 18, 2021

Says Mike: “Taylor is a law student at Texas Tech University who published a legal analysis of scientology’s tax exempt status in the Law Review. Taylor has never been involved in scientology, but grew up in Tampa which sparked her interest in scientology. Her paper is a wonderful summation and careful analysis of the law and makes a compelling argument that the IRS should revisit the exempt status of scientology.”



Episode 40: Steven Hassan

Released: May 11, 2021

Says Mike: “A former Moonie, Steve is today an internationally recognized expert in the field of cults and undue influence. We cover a lot of territory, including undue influence, hypnosis and the methods used to control people. He is Founding Director of the Freedom of Mind Resource Center, which provides training, consulting and support to individuals who are struggling to leave a cult, and to families and organizations that are concerned about cult behaviors.”


Episode 39: Devon Graham Hammonds

Released: May 4, 2021

Says Mike: “This week we talk with our guardian angel at A&E, Devon Graham Hammonds. Devon was VP Programming (she has since moved on and is now an executive at the production company that produced the show) and oversaw The Aftermath show in every respect. We talk about how the show came to be with a lot of behind-the-scenes glimpses into what it was like to make The Aftermath — including the Fair Gaming of everyone concerned and the challenges the network and production company and everyone who worked on the show faced. We also cover why the show ended (it was not, as Scientology crowed ‘because we got it canceled’).”



Episode 38: Listener questions, part 4

Released: April 27, 2021

Says Mike: “We cover a range of topics…The first is that Scientology paid the IRS $12.5 million as part of the settlement which resulted in tax exemption. At the event announcing the exemption, Miscavige said the bill to the IRS was $1 billion.”


Episode 37: Dr. John Dehlin of Mormon Stories

Released: April 20, 2021

Says Mike: “This week Leah and I venture into the world of Mormonism with Dr. John Dehlin. I recently appeared on his long-running and very popular podcast, Mormon Stories, and we are now welcoming him to ours. He is not just a podcaster, he is a non-profit CEO, activist, public speaker, and religious transitions coach. He advocates for the rights of skeptics in Mormonism, LGBT rights, equality for women, and other individual views outside mainstream Mormonism.”


Episode 36: Chris Shelton, part 2

Released: April 13, 2021


Says Mike: “This week’s episode is a continuation from last week with Chris Shelton. We take a deep dive into the the “Truth Rundown” and Rehabilitation Project Force, but of course touch upon other things in doing so. If you want to hear more of Chris’ insights, you can tune into his Sensibly Speaking Podcast. There is a wealth of material there.”


Episode 35: Chris Shelton, part 1

Released: April 6, 2021

Says Mike: “This is a fascinating discussion that covers a wide range of topics — so much so that we recorded a second episode which will be Part 2 next week, taking a deep dive into two topics. A lot of what we talk about today concerns the fake ‘religious’ aspects of Scientology.”


Episode 34: John Sweeney

Released: March 30, 2021

Says Mike: “Sweeney did a program about Scientology for Panorama in 2007, where I was one of the ‘handlers’ on behalf of Scientology. It was a catalyst for me leaving — I was in London defending Scientology and Miscavige from the ‘chaos merchants’ at the BBC. After I had left, I did a second Panorama show with John explaining some of the things that had happened in that first program. We had a lot to talk about then and now about scientology’s tactics with the media.”



Episode 33: Yashar Ali

Released: March 23, 2021

Says Mike: “We are joined this week by media and politics reporter and social activist Yashar Ali. Yashar has done over a dozen stories related to Scientology and more are coming. He has been a long-term voice against scientology abuses who has never been scared off by their Fair Game tactics.”


Episode 32: Aaron Saidman

Released: March 16, 2021

Says Mike: “On this week’s episode, we talk to Aaron Saidman, co-founder of production company (IPC) that was brave enough to bring The Aftermath to air.Tune in for some behind-the-scenes insight into the making of the program, how it came about, the impact it had and how the people involved dealt with scientology and their Fair Game.”



Episode 31: Sarah Edmondson

Released: March 9, 2021

Says Mike: “This week, Leah and I talk with Sarah Edmondson, featured in The Vow, author of Scarred and host (with her husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames) of a new podcast, A Little Bit Culty. We talked about the similarities between Nxivm and Scientology, the systems of control and even the language are remarkably similar, so much so that there is little doubt in my mind that Keith Raniere studied Hubbard.”


Episode 30: Marc Headley

Released: March 2, 2021

We go way back with Headley. We wrote about the publication of his excellent Scientology escape narrative, Blown For Good, when it came out in 2009, and he’s been entertaining us with his amazing anecdotes of life in Scientology ever since.


Episode 29: Tony Ortega

Released: February 23, 2021


Says Mike Rinder: “Leah and I talk to our old friend Tony Ortega this week. Tony has been reporting on Scientology for decades and as anyone who reads this blog likely knows, he writes pieces every day relating to Scientology at the Underground Bunker. This is the most complete repository of reporting on Scientology anywhere….We cover a lot of ground from the legal cases to the Fair Gaming of him and his family. We discuss Tony’s book about the amazing Paulette Cooper, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it).”


Episode 28: Ford Greene

Released: February 16, 2021

Says Mike Rinder: “He has endured many Scientology Fair Game attacks including two criminal investigations, multiple state bar complaints, a civil lawsuit, ongoing surveillance, spying, noisy PI investigations, taking his garbage and more. If all that’s not enough, in addition to his criminal defense practice, since 2007 he has been elected four times as council member for the Town of San Anselmo, CA where he has been mayor three times.”


Episode 27: Jon Atack

Released: February 9, 2021

We want to give ourselves a little credit here. Back in 2012 Jon Atack, the great historian of Scientology who had been an OT himself, was pretty much out of the business of Scientology commentary, and we did our best to drag him back in. He began writing a series of insightful pieces for us here at the Bunker, and he then moved on to produce his own videos about Scientology and other groups. Most recently he had a terrific interview with Mike Rinder about his early days on the Apollo.



Episode 26: Phil Jones

Released: February 2, 2021

Phil and Willie Jones have become beloved members of our community here at The Underground Bunker. Like so many others, they are former Scientologists whose family was ripped apart by the church. Determined to spread word of how Scientology’s toxic policy of ‘Disconnection’ was keeping family members apart as a method of extortion and control, they dreamed up the idea of putting up a billboard where Scientology couldn’t miss it. We followed closely as they put up billboards in Hollywood and Florida. And we’ve been so fortunate that Phil has written numerous pieces for us here at the Bunker.


Episode 25: Valeska Paris

Released: January 26, 2021

In 2010, we interviewed Valeska Paris about her eleven years as an indentured servant on Scientology’s private cruise ship the Freewinds. She says that she was being kept on the ship away from her mother, who had spoken out publicly about the church. That interview was the most-read story we did at the Village Voice, and we’re still amazed by what Valeska was put through. We’ve featured her here numerous times at the Bunker, and we’re glad that she has joined Leah and Mike for their podcast.



Episode 24: Kate Bornstein

Released: January 19, 2021

During our five years as editor in chief of the Village Voice, we wrote a lot about Scientology, but only for the website, not the paper version of the newspaper itself. The only time we deviated from that path was on May 2, 2012, when we decided to splash Kate Bornstein and her amazing voyage from L. Ron Hubbard’s first mate to renowned New York City trans performance artist on the front page. As our readers know, Kate has been a big part of the Underground Bunker ever since.


Episode 23: Stefani Hutchison

Released: January 12, 2021

Says Mike: “Leah and I talk with Stefani Hutchison this week, and the conversation was a true delight. We cover a lot of topics. Stefani was never a Scientologist, but she has become a very effective and vocal whistleblower on the abuses of Scientology. She is an example of what anyone can do if they want to take an active role in ending the pain and suffering that Scientology causes for so many.”


Episode 22: Geoff Levin

Released: January 5, 2021


In October we premiered the trailer for the upcoming documentary “Brothers Broken,” the story of Geoff and Robbie Levin, who were part of the 1960s band People! and also, while in the band, joined the Sea Org to dedicate themselves to Scientology’s cause. That dedication ripped them apart as Robbie left Scientology and his brother disconnected from him. The amazing story of how Geoff got out and finally reunited is told in the film. And we’re really looking forward to you seeing it, because this website actually plays an interesting part in the story of these fascinating guys and how they survived Scientology’s toxic stain.


Episode 21: Listener questions, part 3

Released: December 22, 2020

“The listener questions this week include how scientology is responding to Covid, scientology’s views on voting and many more.”


Episode 20: Yulanda Williams

Released: December 15, 2020

Says Mike: “Yulanda has an incredible story that was only touched upon briefly in her appearance in the final regular episode of The Aftermath Season 3 Episode 13, ‘Church and State’….Yulanda’s parents joined Jim Jones’s People’s Temple when she was young, and she eventually ended up in Guyana, where Jones told his followers he was creating the utopian society. Her story of how her family became involved and her escape prior to the tragedy is riveting. And the parallels between the People’s Temple and scientology are quite obvious.”



Episode 19: Christie Collbran

Released: December 8, 2020

Christie Collbran’s family disconnection is a heartbreaking story and it was featured both in the New York Times (in 2010) and on Leah Remini’s series, “Scientology and the Aftermath.” Unfortunately, her portion of the episode mainly about her husband, Mike Rinder, was cut from what A&E broadcast, but you can still see it at A&E’s website and it might be a good idea to review it before listening to her appearance this week on Leah’s podcast.


Episode 18: Mary Kahn

Released: November 24, 2020

Mary Kahn’s episode in the first season of Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath was particularly special to us for a couple of reasons. First, there was a heavy emphasis on former Sea Org members in the series, and for good reason. The way Sea Org members had been treated was horrific, and had become the focus of an FBI investigation. The defection of several high-ranking former Sea Org officials was the biggest challenge to David Miscavige’s leadership in decades. However, most Scientologists aren’t Sea Org members and so Mary Kahn’s experience as a “public” Scientologist, who had been targeted with disconnection because she dared to break away, was an eye-opening departure for the show. And it was also the episode that we saw Mike Rinder break down after hearing what Mary had been through, and that made for some really remarkable TV.



Episode 17: Claire Headley

Released: November 17, 2020

We’ll be forever indebted to Claire Headley for helping us out on our 2013 series here at the Bunker, “Up the Bridge,” which took us step by step through Scientology’s “Bridge to Total Freedom” and its nutty courses and auditing levels. Claire and her husband Marc were also stars in Leah’s A&E series, Scientology and the Aftermath (see photo), and they also were key to one of the most important pieces of Scientology journalism of all time, the story by Joe Childs and Tom Tobin at the Tampa Bay Times revealing that Scientology was forcing women in the Sea Org to get abortions.


Episode 16: ex-Jehovah’s Witness activist Lloyd Evans

Released: November 10, 2020

Says Mike Rinder: “It’s always a pleasure to speak with Lloyd Evans. He is so knowledgeable, articulate and even-keeled. He helped us put together the Jehovah’s Witness special on The Aftermath, and is a valued supporter of our efforts to expose the abuses in scientology, while he carries out his work doing the same with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.”


Episode 15: Former Narconon president Lucas Catton

Released: November 3, 2020

Luke was at one time was president of Scientology’s flagship drug rehab facility, Narconon Arrowhead in Oklahoma. We first met him when he came to New York in 2013 to film an episode of Rock Center about Scientology’s deceptive rehab racket. And he was a key source for us on a lot of Narconon stories over the years.


Episode 14: Listener questions, part 2

Released: October 27, 2020

Says Mike Rinder: “The topics this week include: Why is Scientology popular with dentists? What happened to Pat and Annie Broeker? Does David Miscavige know how loathed he is in the real world? And much more.”


Episode 13: Listener questions, part 1

Released: October 20, 2020

Leah and Mike take listener questions this week and answer that eternal question we’ve been hearing now for years: What’s with Leah’s fingernails? Says Mike: “We asked you for questions and you came through! Many more than we could possibly answer in a single episode. So, we will no doubt do more of these. Your question may have made the list this week. We covered a broad range of topics, from scientologists coming back after death, to the 411 on Leah’s fingernails.”


Episode 12: Mark Bunker and Clearwater

Released: October 13, 2020

Mark Bunker’s election to the Clearwater city council was a stunning moment, to be sure. And we’ve been documenting, with Mark’s help, how much the Church of Scientology is freaking out about his electoral victory. In this week’s podcast, Leah and Mike are reunited with Bunker for another episode of their podcast.


Episode 11: Mark Vicente and Nxivm

Released: October 6, 2020

Leah and Mike provide a real treat this week for viewers who have been watching the HBO series about Nxivm, “The Vow.” Mark Vicente is not only a key figure in the series, he was also a key witness in the federal trial that Dianne Lipson covered for us last year. They talk to Vicente about the parallels between Nxivm and Scientology, which became very clear in the HBO series.


Episode 10: Attorney Ray Jeffrey

Released: September 29, 2020

Leah and Mike have one of our favorite people on their podcast this week, Texas attorney Ray Jeffrey, who has made plenty of Scientology lawyers break out in a cold sweat. After tangling with the church numerous times in court, he has continued to be a valuable resource for people suing Scientology, and we’ve still never seen anyone in court who is smoother in the face of Scientology’s infuriating tactics.


Episode 9: Australian journalist Steve Cannane

Released: September 22, 2020

If you were fortunate enough to be with us at HowdyCon in Denver, you will remember that we asked Steve Cannane to speak at our Saturday event, and he used the occasion to respond to the sliming he’d just received from Marty Rathbun, who was once again doing Scientology’s dirty work with a set of slick videos he put out beginning that year. Rathbun took shots at Cannane’s definitive book on Scientology in Australia, titled ‘Fair Game,’ ironically enough. Steve is still taking shots over his excellent book. We’ve told you recently about the strange defamation trial he went through in Sydney, a lawsuit that would never happen in the U.S., as Cannane was asked to prove allegations in a royal commission he quoted from that had taken place 30 years earlier.


[Ray Jeffrey, Karen de la Carriere, and Mike]

Episode 8: Karen de la Carriere

Released: September 15, 2020

A former Class XII auditor who trained under Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard himself, Karen was also married to Church of Scientology president Heber Jentzsch, and they had a son, Alexander. Alexander was forced to disconnect from his mother after she began to go public with her distancing from the church in 2010. A couple of years later, one of the most harrowing experiences we had while editing the Village Voice was hearing from Karen that she had learned that her son was dead. And not only had she been kept from the news that he had been ill, but then the church did what it could to keep her away from any arrangements about her son’s remains or a memorial. To this day, Scientology smears Karen about has much as they do any other former Scientologist, and Leah and Mike talk with her about what that’s been like in another remarkable episode of this podcast.


Episode 7: Alex Gibney

Released: September 8, 2020

We certainly remember, as the date neared for the premiere of the documentary ‘Going Clear’ at the Sundance Film Festival in Utah in January 2015, that Scientology leader David Miscavige was beginning to freak out. It was really something to see Scientology take out full-page ads in the New York Times denouncing the film even before anyone had a chance to see it. We’ve always been curious about what Gibney thought of that harassment campaign, and so it’s a real treat to hear him discuss it with Leah and Mike.


Episode 6: Ron Miscavige

Released: September 1, 2020

Leah and Mike talk with Ron Miscavige, father to Scientology’s leader David Miscavige and author of the 2016 book ‘Ruthless: Scientology, My Son David Miscavige, And Me.’ And not only did the three of them get into David Miscavige’s surveillance campaign of his own father, but they also talk about a strange consequence of that spying campaign that involved an impounded laptop computer and the secrets it held.


Episode 5: The targeting of Mike Rinder

Released: August 25, 2020

What starts out as an episode about the general background of Scientology’s “Fair Game” retaliation operations soon settles down into the specific ways that Mike Rinder was targeted after he left the Sea Org in 2007, and it’s a harrowing adventure.


Episode 4: Paulette Cooper

Released: August 18, 2020

No matter how many times we’ve heard it, we’re still astonished by what Paulette went through after daring to write a critical book about L. Ron Hubbard and his movement, The Scandal of Scientology, in 1971. Sued 19 times by Scientology, from the end of 1969 until a court settlement in 1985, Paulette was the target of the most elaborate, repetitive, nasty, and most relentless campaign of Scientology intimidation and psychological warfare in history.


Episode 3: Richard Behar

Released: August 11, 2020

What a treat as Leah and Mike spoke with journalist Rich Behar for their podcast. Rich, of course, wrote perhaps the single most important investigation of Scientology of all time with his May 1991 Time magazine article that called Scientology the “Thriving cult of greed and power,” and which proved to be a watershed in church history: Scientology has been shrinking ever since.


[Heber Jentzsch and John Travolta]

Episode 2: Tammy Clark

Released: August 4, 2020

Leah and Mike decided to make an episode of ‘Aftermath’ by taking Tammy Clark to see her uncle, Scientology ‘President’ Heber Jentzsch. What unfolded, with the Riverside County Sheriff’s Office playing foil, was scary and crazy-making. What made the episode thrilling, for example, was that one of the Sheriff’s office employees agreed to speak — just off camera, concealing their identity — in order to confirm what Leah and Mike knew, that the Sheriff’s Office was complicit with Scientology and essentially terrified of trying to police the base. Unfortunately, the episode never aired. But now, for the first time, Leah and Mike can explain what happened with Tammy in a conversation with her.


Episode 1: Scientology deaths and suicides

Released: July 28, 2020

In the wake of such tragic news as the cancer death of Kelly Preston and suicide of Benjamin Keough, Mike and Leah say they’ve been getting a lot of questions about Scientology and sickness, depression, and death. And the most powerful statement Leah makes in the hour-long episode is that for Scientologists all ailments, including cancer, only happen because they have been exposed to something that opposes their church. You are sick because you have become a “potential trouble source” (PTS) and you are connected to “suppression” — something or someone against Scientology.


Episode 0: Introducing Scientology’s “Fair Game”

Released: July 21, 2020

Numbered in the grand Scientology tradition as episode zero, for an hour the duo we got to know so well in their three-season A&E series Scientology and the Aftermath picked up pretty much where they left off last year, with Leah expressing exasperation over the things Scientology gets away with and Mike calmly explaining how things work both in Scientology and in law enforcement as far as “fair gaming” Scientology’s perceived enemies.

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