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Marty Rathbun tries to rewrite the record on Scientology spying. But we have the dox.

[Gary Morehead’s Bearcat 3000. In the biz, this is known as “dox.”]

We truly did not want to pay any more attention to Marty Rathbun’s lame swipes at Lawrence Wright’s book Going Clear, but in his latest video (“Going Clear, Part 9”) he is making some claims that are staggeringly dishonest. We felt we had to respond.

Let us tell you about Gary “Jackson” Morehead. He is a gentle giant, and one of the most pleasant and forthright former Scientologists we have ever met. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Gary had a remarkable job — head of security at Int Base, Scientology’s secretive 500-acre compound near Hemet, California. Gary has a lot of very fun stories about those days — including a great one that we not only got from Gary but confirmed in all its details with several other former church members.

What we found from that experience is that Gary Morehead is a solid source, even if his stories about Scientology are mindblowing. One of the things Gary was in charge of was the “blow drill.” When a Sea Org member “blew” — escaped — from the base, it was his job to use whatever means at his disposal to bring that person back.

In one memorable episode he told us about (which yes, has been confirmed by other people), a young woman named Jan Simms made a break for freedom in the late 1980s. She did so by getting a doctor’s appointment in town, and then bolting when she got there. Ever after, Gary tells us, this became known as “the Jan Simms method,” and it was one that was also used by Claire Headley to make her break for freedom in 2005.

When Simms ran, Morehead says he got to fly on an airplane for the first time. He went to Tallahassee, where Jan’s parents lived.

“I was set up in a Holiday Inn and provided equipment by Ben Shaw,” Gary told us last night by telephone. “I sat there all day. That’s all I did for a solid week.”

And what was he doing there? “I had scanners provided by OSA. I was listening for Jan Simms talking to her parents.”

And how would you do that, Gary?

“I knew the frequencies for cordless phones and cell phones,” he says. He sat there, listening in on phone conversations, for days and days.

Marty Rathbun, in his latest video, says this never happened. After calling Morehead “goofy,” he quotes from Lawrence Wright’s book about Gary spying on phone calls.

“He says in here that they were using scanners to listen to cell phone calls,” Marty says. “I got news. A scanner will not net you the content of a telephone call. Either Gary is into this embellishment for fame or Wright has invented this.”

“Marty doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” Gary tells us. “First of all, OSA had a closet full of equipment for listening in on conversations. That’s where I learned how to do it. I saw the closet and I saw the equipment, and Ben Shaw and I learned how to do it. I was listening to cordless phones and cell phones. Just like we could call an airport and get information on a passenger, the technology had got ahead of the security.”

Gary explains that for a limited number of years, the scanners were more sophisticated than the phones they were eavesdropping on. And he says that Marty knew full well what they were capable of at that time, in the late 1980s.

“I’m surprised he would even say something like that. And he called me goofy? Wow. Well I guess that ain’t too bad, huh?” Gary says with a laugh. (We’ve never heard Gary Morehead sound angry about anything, ever.)

Gary explained that US scanners had restrictions in some frequencies, so as part of his job with Scientology, he purchased a Uniden Bearcat 3000 XLT in Canada, where those frequencies weren’t restricted.

“I still have it!” he said, and then photographed the scanner and sent it to us, as you can see above.

That, in the business, is what we call “dox,” for documented proof. And in his videos, Marty repeatedly proves that he has none.

Let’s take another example. Marty repeatedly says that Lawrence Wright invented things out of whole cloth for his book, which is a scurrilous accusation to make. Here’s one that Marty makes in the video, and let’s please keep in mind that he’s not speaking under oath:

“An undercover campaign was launched to discredit or blackmail Lawrence Wollersheim’s lawyer, Charles O’Reilly.” False. Didn’t happen. I was there. I was in charge of everything that had to do with all that. Did not happen. Wright writes, “His house was bugged and his office was infiltrated by a Scientology operative.” A complete and utter invention of Lawrence Wright.

An invention by Lawrence Wright, really? Why isn’t Rathbun at least acknowledging what is easily found in seconds through a web search, that Wright is working from material that previous journalists had also reported, such as Joel Sappel and Robert Welkos in the epic 1990 series about Scientology in the Los Angeles Times, which is where we found this reference to Joseph Yanny’s court testimony which, we’ll point out, was under oath:

In a recent lawsuit, former Scientology attorney Joseph Yanny alleged that the church and its agents had implemented or plotted a broad array of fair-game measures against him and other critics, including intensive surveillance and dirty tricks.

Earlier this year, a Los Angeles Superior Court jury awarded Yanny $154,000 in legal fees that he said the church had refused to pay.

Among other things, Yanny said in his lawsuit that he attended a 1987 meeting at which top church officials and three private detectives discussed blackmailing Los Angeles attorney Charles O’Reilly, who won the multimillion-dollar jury award for Wollersheim.

According to Yanny, the plan was to steal O’Reilly’s medical records from the Betty Ford Clinic near Palm Springs, then exchange them for a promise from O’Reilly that he would “ease off” during the appeal process.

Yanny, who later had a bitter break with Scientology, said he objected and the idea was dropped. The church denies such a discussion ever took place.

It’s one thing if Marty, who was there and was “in charge of everything that had to do with all that” were to, all these years later, raise questions about Yanny’s testimony. But what gives with the obviously false accusation that Lawrence Wright is making this stuff up?

And it gets worse.

Also in this segment, Rathbun makes this claim:

The paragraph is capped off with a quote: “A former Scientology executive, Vicki Aznaran, later testified that there was an effort to compromise the judge by setting up his son, who they heard was gay, with a minor boy.” It’s a complete invention of Vicki Aznaran. Now, if it is even an invention of Vicki Aznaran. It says she testified. I doubt that she testified. If she did testify, she lied. And she just made this stuff up. But I question whether you’ll find such testimony…He’s just inventing this stuff.

For Xenu’s sake, Marty. Before you accuse Lawrence Wright of inventing things, how hard is it to work the Google? Here, in fact, is what Vicki Aznaran testified to in a 1993 declaration:

During the 1984-87 period, Scientology operated a number of “dirty tricks” operations out of the office of Special Affairs (OSA), including one called MFTC (for “Mission Find The Crimes”) and the “WOLLY” unit (which targeted Lawrence Wollersheim, his attorneys, and his case). The orders for these operations would go directly from OSA to private investigators, although Scientology deceitfully tries to cloak such operations under “attorney-client privilege”.

MFTC and the WOLLY unit each had about 8-10 staff, and engaged in whatever dirty tricks were necessary to attack people and entities which were considered to be “enemies” of Scientology. The dirty tricks they used included destruction of evidence, theft of documents, illegal surveillance or bugging, blackmail, bribery, physical assault and other intimidation, securing perjured testimony. MFTC’s mission was to find or manufacture crimes for “enemies” of Scientology.

Before and during the trial in Wollersheim v Church of Scientology of California, MFTC and WOLLY ran a number of operations directed against Wollersheim, his counsel, and the Court. One of these operations was an attempt to put pressure on Bill Swearinger, the son of the trial judge in the Wollersheim case, based on his alleged homosexuality. The idea was to dig up, or manufacture (perhaps by setting the son up in a compromising sexual position with a minor boy), dirt on the son which could be used to pressure the Judge to rule favorably for Scientology, or else to get the Judge disqualified.

Attached as Exhibit A is a true copy of an internal Scientology memorandum, dated 6/21/86, which discusses this “Swearinger Investigation”. I received a hard copy of this document at about that time, and I believe I also received a copy of this document on my computer. The Linda referred to on the first page is Linda Hamil, who at the time ran the MFTC. The Marty referred to on the first page is Marty Rathbun, a top Scientology “intelligence” official, who ran this operation.

Oh, say what? A document that refers to Marty Rathbun not only knowing about this particular operation but being in on it?

Let’s take a look at it. Here’s that exhibit, dated 1986, which has some missing letters because of a poor scan of a court document. But we can see enough to get the picture…

21-Jun-1986 10:37

To: WOLLY INVEST I/C
From: MFTC I/C

Re: Swearinger Invest

for your info and whatever else you can do with this…

20-Jun-1986 20:56

Dear Linda,
What does JP want to do with Bill Swearinqer? What did Bowles say to him? Why would we want Bill S to have Royce confess? Confess to what? When will the rest of the 13 original targets be done?

ML Marty

20-Jun-1986 20:40

Dear Sir,

Compliance Report.

What was ordered:

I sent over a 18 step invest to revive the Swearinger Invest. In response you merc’d’

“‘Ilk, I’ll expect the results of all of this by Friday.’

(In this same comm you asked for the Mayer invest which is forwarded in a separate Merc.)

What was done:

The results of the Swearinger Invest are in the report below. The original targets are at the very end of this comm.

This is DK.

ML Linda

Swearinger Invest results:

resulted in a) two Swearinger neighbors recalling a White Cherokee by Bill’s house a few times in the last 6 months {that’s what Royce drives} and by Bill Swearinger calling up Tim Bowles wanting to end cycle of it all once and for all. Step by step results follow.

1. Learn[?] was not yet interviewed as she has not yet been located. However we did find out that she has left the employment of Varsity Communications and we found her last name, traced her through her parents and now have her unlisted phone number in Hollywood. She has not been in yet but should be able to be reached either tonight or Saturday. The good news is that she no longer works for the company so will not be under the thumb of Palmieri.

Perry and Embinder have not been at the office or at home over the last days so have not yet been confronted. Ambush interview of Steve Perry (a.k.a. Bubba}. He could confirm the relationship of Bill S. and Walker.

Photos were taken to Royce’s neighbors and none recalled having seen Bill, None of Bill’s distinctive cars in the vicinity.

5. Bill’s neighbors were shown Royce, Bubba and Embinder and did not recognize them. They were also shown the photo of Royce’s white Cherokee and two of his nearest neighbors independently recognized having seen such a car parked adjacent to the stairs leading up to Bill’s house a few times over the last six months. One of these neighbors, Mr. Franklee (a film editor said that Bill frequently had parties where young boys were observed at Bill’ s house but had no distinct memories of any faces.

6. We have not been able to confirm where Casey was 9-10-11 May due to terminals not being accessible.

7. The line to the secretary to get further data from the court reporter ran into a logistics snag and will need to be done Monday.

8. Though Royce has refused to speak at all with Francovich, a line to go in on to reestablish the comm has worked out which can be done early next week (Francovich will take over a check owed to Royce which will be coming in Monday or Tues,.

9. The young mexican we’d seen with Swearingor last month has not been identified. The neighbor checked with (Pranklee) recalled having seen him about a month ago walking away from the house, upset, originating to this neighbor “I can’t go on like this any more, I’m really upset. And this neighbor hasn’t seen him since. Checks were made at a local mexican restaurant the two had stopped at when under surveillance, no data, and a number in Guatemala possibly associated with this kid was checked but the only person at the number with contacts in LA was out of town for a week. So the kid could not be located to interview.

10. The spots where Bill was seen to stop on surveillance were checked for familiarity with Royce or his vehicle or friends and there was no recognition. The vicinity of an address where Royce had been seen dropping off two young men was checked and one neighbor, a foreigner, man (Mr. Behar) recognized having seen a car similar to Bill Swearinger’s in the neighborhood.

11. Stuart and Steve’s office was visited, they were not there but the current office manager related a story consistent with Royce Walker’s description of Swearinger and Walker only casually knowing each other.

12. Royce & friend’s photo was shown to the receptionist and security man at 69~ Hollywood (where Swearinger’s office is located, but ~ot d~a~in~ attention to Swearinger). No recognition. His old office across the street was also checked, no reads.

13. It was found that Caryl Warner does still practice law and works out of 69~ Hollywood – Suite 500 – a full schedule every day. However a check made on Thursday revealed that he was out until Monday so no pretext interview has yet been done.

A definite impingement was made from the actions taken Bill Swearinger phoned Tim Bowles at ~:15 today and said the following:

that Al Bei[?] of Ingram investigations was asking his neighbors ~ his clients questions about the veracity of Royce Walker, was very upsetting and said he wants it to stop immediately. He wants to end cycle on this escapade on his knowledge of the Judge’s prejudice “once and for all”. He said he is not willing to submit to a deposition (because the federal judge ruled that such a depo is irrelevant). However, he said he is willing to meet with us to tell us what he knows. He insists there is no prejudice from his father. He termed our efforts ‘shooting in a barrel with nonexistent fish”, something like that.

He said that if we can’t come to an immediate resolution on [missing words] is he going to take “self-help”. He specifically mentioned buying a gun or drafting and filing a motion for protective order in the federal case. He said he couldn’t wait until Monday, he decided to resolve it now.

It is of interest that Al Bei[?] did not interview any of the neighbors, that was done by Mark Marinc. Al Sr. went to the 6922 Hollywood building (Swearinger’s office and Al Bei Jr. went to Royce’s
office at 7715 Sunset. We don’t know who any of Bill’s clients are (though one of the women interviewed by Marino could have been a client}.

Next

a) Have the confrontation with Swearinger and get him to tell the truth about this matter. If he insists he is being truthful, have him drag in Royce to confess, and Francovich can be there too.

{the following steps to be done but called off if step (a) resolves it as continuing would be pointless.}

b) Interview Leann (per last call her ~o~ate said she’s expected to be there Saturday) who is no longer part of the Varsity office. She’ll be checked out whether the boys went to Palm Springs as well.

c) Ingram to call Casey to ask him Just one more question – the Palm Springs question he neglected to ask him during the interview.

~) P~.l ~ ~u~t reporter string via the secretary resource.

e) interviews of Embinder and Bubba.

f) Francovich to recontact Roy~ with check owed to him and get him in.

f) Pull down Caryl Warner string through pretext interview.

il Ambush interview on Leann, the secretary (she was the one other person mentioned in the depo of Walker as someone he talked to about Son. She will be gotten outside of the office as in the office someone could contact Palmieri and she’ll clam up.)

ambush interview of Steve Perry (aka Bubba). He could confirm ~i~g of Bill S. and Walker.

~q~ ~erv~e~ of Embinder as possible.

Photo of Bill and Ron taken to Royce’s neighbors to see whether ~~ seen them around.

5. Photos of Royce, Bubba, Embinder and Casey shown to Bill Swearinger’s neighbors.

6. Find out where Casey Klinger was the weekend 9 – 10 – 11 May, i.e. whether he was in Palm Springs or not. (pretext has been worked out to get this.) If in Palm Springs, get identity of the two fags they were with.

7. Use secretary resource who has a good line already to the court reporters to find out anything further on the cash payment cycle, i.e. was the Judge irritated, who else may have been there, etc.

8. Francovich to re-establish comm line with Royce over some business dealing, and see what further can be obtained from this line, get him to cop out to what occurred (witness present).

9. Use our Spanish speaking PI (Joe) to suitably interview the young mexican (P. Garcia may be name) guy who was seen with Bill Swearinger at least three mornings, who may live with Swearinger, and get the data on Bill’s relationship with Royce

18. Use the data we have on Bill’s contacts (places he was observed ~oi.nO ~n~en under surveillance and known comm lines he has) to interview the contacts with pictures of Royce and Bill re: their
relationship.

11. Stuart and Steve (Bill’s former employers and Royce’s friend) ~=en w/photos to establish how many times and for what reason Royce visited Bill.

12. Suitably inquire (with photos) at Bill’s current law office about Walker, does he show up there frequently etc.

13. Pull down strings on any possible relationship between Swearinger and Caryl Warner (work in same suite though different offices) – through pretext interview. the above to be done by Friday, then analyzed and retargetted.

 
Wow. So Marty Rathbun is now saying that Lawrence Wright invented a story of Vicki Aznaran testifying that there was a scummy Scientology operation to target the son of a judge hearing the Wollersheim matter, when it turns out that not only did Aznaran testify to it, but a Scientology document entered as evidence suggests that Rathbun himself was in on the operation.

Marty, did you seriously intend to open this can of worms?

Instead of casting any doubt on Wright’s book, all you’re doing is reminding us that you never came clean in any of your three books about the operations you were involved with as Scientology’s chief enforcer. You ran those scummy operations, Marty. And now you expect us to take your word over Larry Wright’s?

Amazing.

And once again, why did you give Dani Lemberger’s private email to the Church of Scientology to use against him in litigation? How about just answering that simple question?

 
——————–

Bonus items from our tipsters

Actual caption from an image posted on a public page by the Mace-Kingsley center in Clearwater: “These 2 girls just finished their current auditing program! They start really young these days. Children can do the Purif as early as 9-10 years old at Mace-Kingsley, then Objectives/SRD & then get their Grades (by the age 12) and go on to Clear! This is the usual here at Mace-Kingsley in Clearwater, FL. It is Great to see so many children going up the Bridge on a daily basis!”

 

 
Seriously, FBI? What the hell are you waiting for?

 
——————–

HOWDYCON ANNOUNCEMENT

 
Wow, we’re getting close to the start of HowdyCon 2017 in Denver. And we had a slight change in logistics from our caterer for our dinner on Saturday night, June 24. If you plan to go, make sure you have confirmed with Kim O’Brien, our coordinator, and visit our HowdyCon website where she has instructions for how you can pay for the dinner fee that night. You need to do that right away to make sure you’ll be included in the Saturday night festivities, which include:

— London-based Australian journalist Steve Cannane talking about his book Fair Game
— A spoken-word performance from former Sea Org official Claire Headley
— Cathy Schenkelberg performing for us scenes from her one-woman show, “Squeeze My Cans”

You don’t want to miss out, so please visit the convention page and get in contact with Kim.

 
HowdyCon 2017: Denver, June 23-25 at the Residence Inn Denver City Center. Go here to start making your plans.

 
——————–

Scientology disconnection, a reminder

Bernie Headley has not seen his daughter Stephanie in 4,781 days.
Jamie Sorrentini Lugli has not seen her father Irving in 2,538 days.
Quailynn McDaniel has not seen her brother Sean in 1,884 days.
Claudio and Renata Lugli have not seen their son Flavio in 2,378 days.
Sara Goldberg has not seen her daughter Ashley in 1,418 days.
Lori Hodgson has not seen her son Jeremy in 1,130 days.
Marie Bilheimer has not seen her mother June in 656 days.
Joe Reaiche has not seen his daughter Alanna Masterson in 4,745 days
Derek Bloch has not seen his father Darren in 1,885 days.
Cindy Plahuta has not seen her daughter Kara in 2,205 days.
Claire Headley has not seen her mother Gen in 2,180 days.
Ramana Dienes-Browning has not seen her mother Jancis in 536 days.
Mike Rinder has not seen his son Benjamin in 4,838 days.
Brian Sheen has not seen his daughter Spring in 945 days.
Skip Young has not seen his daughters Megan and Alexis for 1,347 days.
Mary Kahn has not seen her son Sammy in 1,220 days.
Lois Reisdorf has not seen her son Craig in 801 days.
Phil and Willie Jones have not seen their son Mike in 1,306 days.
Mary Jane Sterne has not seen her daughter Samantha in 1,550 days.
Kate Bornstein has not seen her daughter Jessica in 12,659 days.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on June 14, 2017 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

The Best of the Underground Bunker, 1995-2016 Just starting out here? We’ve picked out the most important stories we’ve covered here at the Undergound Bunker (2012-2016), The Village Voice (2008-2012), New Times Los Angeles (1999-2002) and the Phoenix New Times (1995-1999)

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Syd

    Just watched #11…. “nah baby nah….I didn’t say any of that stuff, I swe…. OUCH! “

  • mockingbird

    I just sacrificed another few increasingly precious points of my rapidly diminishing IQ and listened to part 11 of Going Clear. Ugh.

    Marty Rathbun used a phrase that sums up the whole series and his life’s work – utter bullshit.

    Maybe Miscavige is pulling a propaganda rope a dope. By having the most incompetent, pretentious, transparent, gutless, lying shill he could find bombard us with the weakest of weak propaganda possible Miscavige wants us to laugh our way into overconfidence and strike with his good stuff later ! Genius !

    • MrsLurksALot

      Yes, but is it provable utter bullshit?

      • mockingbird

        Well, Tony Ortega, Jeffrey Augustine and a crew of Bunkeroos will work on proving it.

    • Liberated

      How can you stand it ?

      • mockingbird

        I may give up soon, before I lose the few dozen IQ points I still have left.

      • mockingbird

        Duh…

    • PeaceMaker

      I’m still not sure what Rathbun is up to. But the thing I found is interesting is that he is taking the self-centered position – which he may wholeheartedly believe – that Wright should have treated him as the principal authority for things that went on, and that if Rathbun didn’t say it or verify it then it couldn’t have happened, as if Wright had no other, or no other possibly even more reliable, sources for these things.

      I’ll be interested to see what those who may have more of the facts around these issues at the tips of their fingertips, can provide further examples in which Rathbun’s statements are themselves “utter bullshit” and he either got the facts wrong or was not as much in the loop as he thought he was. Rathbun first “blew” Scientology in late 1993, after the negotiation of the IRS agreement, and it’s possible that he had been regarded as unreliable and suspicious before that and kept out of the loop on some sensitive matters, and even more likely that his exposure to information was restricted afterwards.

      • Dale

        “Wright should have treated him as the principal authority for things that went on, ”

        I think that the problem is just that banal, and not profound at all. Marty can’t bear to be one of many, he has to be the one and only.

      • mockingbird

        He is obviously truthfully impaired and honesty deficient now. He is a lost soul.

        I am glad I won’t have to waste time exposing each and every lie he tells cause that is becoming a never ending and unrewarding task.

        • PeaceMaker

          MB, I think it’s a worthwhile endeavor to debunk some of the most obvious lies, for the record and to undermine whatever it is Rathbun thinks he is trying to do.

          I like what Tony has done in the newer post now up, pick an obvious and convenient point to deconstruct – one for which there is clear evidence, and better yet even Rathbun’s own words.

  • Observer

    They’re screaming–we must be winning!

    • flyonthewall

      is the big karate championship match at Howdycon on Thursday or Friday? It’s prob Friday, nevermind, stupid question

      • Observer

        HC doesn’t start till Friday, so, yeah, Friday.

        • Jimmy3

          I got 100 thetabux on you. Don’t let me down.

          • flyonthewall

            Obs is Cobra Kai. They fight hard but dirty. Save your money, she’ll prob get disqualified for kneecapping someone

          • Sherbet

            Observer can wither an opponent with her wit alone. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

            • Jimmy3

              Obs: “Wait wait… Time out. Your shoe is untied.”
              Bunker Newb: “Eh?” *looks down*
              Obs: *roundhouse kick to the face*

            • Sherbet

              Something like that, but without the roundhouse kick.

            • Jimmy3

              I don’t know if you’ve ever met Observer. She ends every conversation with a roundhouse kick to the face.

            • Sherbet

              Eep! Cancel my HowdyCon reservation.

            • iampissed

              Um……..

        • flyonthewall

          oh cool. I guess it’s a good way to kick off the festivities but what about Saturday? Be kinda hard to top that

        • iampissed

          There is an informal (as opposed to the formal ASC shit that needs to get done)
          on Thursday I believe.

          • Kim O’Brien

            yes

            • iampissed

              Do we need robes or anything Kim for the formal shit. I can dress in ren faire garb if needed.
              Not going to happen.
              ETA: I only do that when MC1R is around…and we are at Ren Faire.

            • Kim O’Brien

              just wear something to cover the goolies – and a shirt ( no side boob please . none of us are 23 ) and some shoes . just because we are are in colorado , does not mean we are savages ๐Ÿ˜‰

            • Jimmy3

              Exactly. None of us are 23. No one wants to see side boob. So be mature about it and go full boob.

      • TexasBroad

        Is hugging your opponent semi-unconscious an allowed karate move? If so, the title is MINE!

    • #MASCGA!

    • Sherbet

      This is all the more shocking that it’s happening in Australia, where scientology doesn’t exactly have a stellar reputation.

  • iampissed

    Avery was just told….and when you grow up (that will be next Thursday @ 2pm). You will get to have a job working 100 hours a week and getting paid 50 big ones (if your lucky). Now go out and hunt for Thetans in the yard…..like a good little girl.

  • iampissed

    Well that was odd my IPad just popped a warning that no SIM card was installed Ya Think.

  • Marie Rivera

    ” it never happened “. “Utter bullshit ”

    Do they teach these phrases in nursery school 101 in the Cos?

    • TexasBroad

      It never happened and if it did, we didn’t do it, but if we did, it was our religiosity right under the constitution.

      • iampissed

        Funny every time I get a txt I say the same thing….I didn’t do it.

  • Nat-leficent

    Does Gary Morehead live at In-n-out or just have the wallpaper? Where do you order specialty wallpaper like that?

    • Jimmy3

      We banned In n Out in Ohio. That’s why we don’t have them here, I’m pretty sure.

      • Nat-leficent
      • flyonthewall

        you should of banned Big Boy instead. We had them on the way back from Howdycon and it was stupid, taste like cafeteria food

        • Sherbet

          What does their wallpaper look like?

          • flyonthewall

            idk, I didn’t pay attn bc I was transfixed by the salad bar. A salad bar in a fast food place?? Cookoo-cookoo!

            • Sherbet

              Then I guess we can say In-N-Out wins the wallpaper competition against Big Boy.

              (BTW, Wendy’s used to have a salad bar.)

            • Syd

              And it was so so good “back in the day”! My friends and I went to Wendy’s salad bar 5 days a week for a while when we were in college. It never got old….

            • Sherbet

              It was good. Salad and a baked potato with chili. Yum.

            • Jimmy3

              Dip the fries in the Frosty. That is the best way to Wendy.

            • Sherbet

              You’re a true gourmet.

            • Jimmy3

              I know. I’m a foodie snob. I’ve gone back in to Gordon Ramsey them when they didn’t salt my fries. Which has happened more than once. Put the damn salt on them when they’re hot out of the fry-o-later. Learn 2 cook bro

            • Sherbet

              Exactly. That’s Fry Cook 101, for Pete’s sake. Doggone that Gordon Ramsey for taking shortcuts.

            • Liberated

              Yeah, but you still eat with a spork.

            • Jimmy3

              It’s 2017. Our utensils shouldn’t be segregated. We don’t need forks AND spoons. Spork was the future decades ago. Spork is now the present.

            • Liberated

              So you’re telling me, you were into sporks…before sporks were cool ?

              That’s a bold statement !

            • Jimmy3

              I read Game of Thrones 10 years before the show was mainstream pop culture. I personally impeached Donald Trump in 2011. I knew where Waldo was before he wandered off. And I’ve been sporking since I was strong enough to wield a spork.

            • Liberated

              I stand corrected, Mr. Jimmy !

            • Juicer77

              In England they don’t salt. You get salt in a packet. A PACKET I TELL YOU!

            • Keeping Scientology Waning

              That was my craving when I was pregnant.

            • Juicer77

              No, no, no. You hit Arby’s for spicy curly fries, then Wendy up with the chocolate frosty for dippin’.

            • Syd

              Yes! It’s too bad they’ve gone downhill over the years.

          • Checkerboard.

    • iampissed

      It’s a very small scanner next to a cup.

    • flyonthewall

      he prob ripped a big hunk of wallpaper off the wall and took it home. That’s what I would do for no reason

      • Observer

        I believe you.

  • Shivani33

    A Narcissist’s Prayer

    That didn’t happen.
    And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
    And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
    And if it is, that’s not my fault.
    And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
    And if I did
    You deserved it.

    Many are familiar with this, but it feels appropriate to Rathbun’s blabbing crap, since he is so resolute about never having made any mistakes. And now he’s mouthing it up that Scientology is perfect, too.

  • Supper Powers

    Marty just needs a bottom row of rotten teeth and he’s good to go.

  • PattyCakenfeld
    • Supper Powers

      Number of people who give a shit about what Marty has to say over a 3 day period.

      • PattyCakenfeld

        Ha! That was too easy!

        Number of You Tube views for the videos.

        • Supper Powers

          I have good instincts.

    • Sherbet

      Number of Bunkeroos who are still twisting themselves into pretzels speculating about Marty’s motives? When we get to zero, Tony spills all.

      • Kestrel

        I switched from pretzels to Pringles yesterday. I’ve done my part.

      • Davka

        We are never going to get to zero……too much fodder for the mill for that. And holy hell the man has gone out of his mind.

      • TexasBroad

        Meh…he’ll tell us when the story is nailed down. No sooner. No later.

        • Sherbet

          Right. When he has more evidence. He’s that diligent.

        • Jimmy3

          This. He said be patient, more evidence is coming. The pretzel ploy was only a clever distraction.

          • Juicer77

            Mmmmm.. pretzels….

    • Jimmy3

      It’s a crude drawing of Marty Rathbun’s soft, jellied spine.

    • Nat-leficent

      I was going to say X: Years married Y: Blowjobs but then I saw how high it started out XD

      • Jimmy3

        Could be average duration of blowjob in milliseconds.

        • Nat-leficent

          ^^^^^

      • PattyCakenfeld

        HA!

        In true Hubbard fashion, I was going to omit the Y scale but the precipitous drop was too wonderfully mean to hide.

    • Noesis

      Number of views for each of Marty’s videos, some of which is explainable by the length of time each has been posted (the older videos have more views)…the rest is explainable by the ZZZZZZ factor of the whole series.

      This is really embarrassing for Marty…if he is even capable of feeling embarrassment.

    • PeaceMaker

      I’m surprised that the numbers are as high as they are for the first video – that shows the number of people following things with a high degree of interest. The sharp drop-off also indicates that Rathbun mostly just attracted some curiosity because of his notoriety, but has no significant audience of his own and only draws some residual interest attributable largely to particularly keen Scientology watchers who he would classify as ASCs.

    • Gus Cox

      That reflects my experience. I watched some of the first one, got bored out my brain, and haven’t watched another. The graph shows my experience is not unique.

  • salin

    Haven’t done this in awhile – but – big day at the Bunker, important post followed by some very interesting conversations in the comments section. Remember to click the recommend for the day’s post – it is an upvote on discus – not for a single comment, but for the article (and comments). Can we get the recommends to 150?

    Forget the space opera that Long Con Ron promoted (and Marty seems to be back in line to promote in the sense of re-promoting the whole shebang.) Instead vicariously experience this – captured in Alberta, Canada in late May 2017.

    Despite Marty’s claim of the big flow of money coming into/supporting the ASC Troika, (ya – from where?), this work is supported by small donations that can be bumped up by simply using the link on the upper lefthand sight of the website to initiate orders to Amazon. If you order from Amazon, using a few small extra clicks (opening the UB Site, clicking on the Amazon link) gives a bit of support to Tony and this website.

    Oops – on edit forgot the Aurora link: http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=136234&PHPSESSID=ui3a6h2iil5u7ilvri975dr5k2

    • And you can purchase pretty much anything via Amazon ๐Ÿ™‚
      I love your links ~ thx

      • salin

        thx, tigger.

  • Lliira

    I thought one of the most powerful moments in the “Going Clear” documentary was when Marty said something like “I’ve died a thousand deaths” about his guilt over his involvement in Scientology. I thought it was a great example of how people can reform, and of how difficult it is.

    Now, I don’t know what the hell is going on with Marty. Maybe it’s as simple as payola. But I remember the look in his eyes when he said that. It takes a strong person to face themselves when they’ve done terrible things. I wonder if Marty simply could not do it any longer. If, unlike Mike Rinder, Gary Morehead, and others, he does not have the intestinal fortitude to look himself in the mirror. I think it’s possible that all this garbage he’s putting out now is due to cowardice.

    • FredEX2

      I remember that moment in the film when he said that too. He appeared false to me then, and certainly now too. Narcissists and psychopaths can fake emotions…they just don’t really feel them. They also try to get people to feel ‘sorry’ for them and need a lot of attention.

      Marty = Kettle + Pot=black heart.

      • Lliira

        Well, he fooled me with it. Not entirely, but enough. I’d been semi-obsessing about redemption at the time in any case (for a story), so it was the perfect time for something like that to hook me.

        Never felt sorry for him though. Just willing to believe he’d made a fresh start. Now… I kinda do feel sorry for him. What must it be like, to be so pathetic? Dancing on the string of Miscavige even when you could have escaped him and gotten massively applauded for it? Very pitiable and sad, to be such an empty shell.

        • FredEX2

          I once tried to give him the benefit of the doubt too…but a good friend reminded me ‘when there’s no more doubt…give no more benefit’. Good advice and helps keep you from being sucked in too deep by these types…coz I tended to be too empathetic and gullible…not so much anymore.

      • Kitz

        I told Michael when we finally watched it, that Marty was fake, and the only time true emotion reached his eyes were when he talked about his wife, and what he did as a scio. The emotion I saw was NOT remorse or sorrow, but excitement….

      • If they’re anything like Borderlines, they actually try to get others to feel their feelings for them.

      • I’ve known people who, when they realise that they have gone over the top, resort to that ‘poor little helpless me’ act to try to save the situation. It’s very manipulative. He did the same thing with his little ‘unemployable’ speech in “My Scientology Movie”, but Louis Theroux didn’t fall for it at all.

        It’s easier to see that this is phoney when you are there, than when it is being presented on film.

        It’s what you do that matters, not how you present what you have done. “By their fruits shall you know them” and the fruits of Marty’s actions have gone very sour indeed.

        • FredEX2

          This is a well expressed comment Once_Born. I agree. Especially with “By their fruits you shall know them.”โค๏ธ

  • Chee Chalker

    Part 11 is just precious
    Marty now implies (says Lawrence Wright is ‘projecting’) that Wright cheats on his wife.

    Also claims he never told Wright Scientology owed the IRS a billion dollars. Just that it COULD be a billion dollars.

    Didn’t Miscavige say in the War Is Over speech “…….there will be no billion dollar tax bill we cannot pay”
    (I don’t recall if he actually said ‘billion’ but I don’t want to have to go and listen to that nonsense again)

    Also of interest…..Rathbun the Revisionist uses the term ‘we’ when describing the Co$.

    Ain’t it good to be back home again? (With apologies to John Denver for mentioning him in the same post as sMarty)

    • UhLasare

      Yes, he said billion. I just watched that thing last week.

    • UhLasare

      Check out 1:31:50

      https://youtu.be/_uumuuQm5eQ

      • Free Minds, Free Hearts

        Well, that was fast, UhLasare!

        • UhLasare

          I watched it last week when I was in bed with strep – I got interested in it while reading Blown For Good, finally.

          • Free Minds, Free Hearts

            Well, it was good timing for making a relevant comment today… But I am sorry you had strep throat.

          • Robert Eckert

            The strep wasn’t making you suffer enough?

            • UhLasare

              Glutton for punishment, I guess. ๐Ÿ˜‚

      • Chee Chalker

        Can you imagine having to sit through 2 1/2 hours of that insufferable lunatic?
        Thanks for the link
        I was pretty sure he had said it, but wanted to make certain.
        Apparently, this is now a huge issue for Marty and PROVES ‘Going Clear’ is full of lies!
        Because Marty never said for sure it was a billion dollar tax bill!

        The insanity of these videos! One is crazier than the next!

        • UhLasare

          Well, yes, sadly I can imagine it. I had a peripheral involvement with another group that has been clarified by some as a cult. I think it’s definitely on the spectrum. I’ve sat through long speeches made by an insufferable idiot.

    • PeaceMaker

      Rathbun is being very narrow and legalistic in the points he’s trying to make. A transcription of the speech has been posted – and I think Miscavige can be seen implicitly claiming to have saved Scientology from a billion-dollar tax bill, though again he doesn’t specifically say that there actually was one.

      I’m just trying to point out, that it’s important to watch what he’s actually doing. Among other things, if he’s trying to be lawyerly here, then we have to watch carefully for him playing word games going forward.

    • PeaceMaker

      Rathbun is being very narrow and legalistic in the points he’s trying to make. A transcription of the speech has been posted – and I think Miscavige can be seen implicitly claiming to have saved Scientology from a billion-dollar tax bill, though again he doesn’t specifically say that there actually was one.

      I’m just trying to point out, that it’s important to watch what he’s actually doing. Among other things, if he’s trying to be lawyerly here, then we have to watch carefully for him playing word games going forward.

      • “Trying” being the operative word.

      • Chee Chalker

        Oh I am well aware of the ‘I was the head of the legal department having never gone to law school’ game Marty is playing.
        He thinks he is being clever and ‘literal’ but real lawyers don’t behave like that. Not the good ones anyway.

        His points are ridiculous and prove nothing. Larry Wright simply repeats what David Miscavige himself said…….and now Marty is claiming ‘I never said it was for sure a billion’
        Hey Marty…..let’s talk about the things Larry Wright got right……
        Marty? Where did you go Marty…..

    • ExCult.Jan

      Part 11?!? Two more today since I am not to work this morning? ! Is anybody still listening? I barely made it through the first.

    • Most IRS Managers Say Agency is Incorruptible, Fair March 23, 1991, Associated Press

      The Josephson Institute of Ethics surveyed 1,500 top IRS managers across the country to see what they think about the agency, how they view their roles and what they consider to be ethical behavior.

      IRS Commissioner Fred T. Goldberg Jr. ordered the survey in January as part of a campaign to heighten his 120,000 employees’ ethics awareness. He acted after a House panel probed several cases of misconduct among senior managers and after critics offered mounds of evidence of cavalier treatment of taxpayers.

      The “Josephson Institute of Ethics” (actually JOSEPH & EDNA JOSEPHSON INSTITUTE OF ETHICS) seemed to have leaked the results of their survey for a jump-start to Scientology’s Coalition of IRS Whistle-blowers, which is weird if Fred Goldberg authorized it and paid for it.

      “-24 percent drove under the influence of alcohol at least once last year; less than 1 percent used illegal drugs; 17 percent deceived a superior;”

      That doesn’t sound like just checking for partying on the tax-payer dime. How confidential were those surveys?

      I haven’t dug into the Josephson Institute of Ethics yet. Established 17 September 1980. Their listed 2007 Form 990 is incomplete or truncated, and is invalid as is.
      http://www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NPO.Summary&EIN=953560351&BMF=1&Cobrandid=0&Syndicate=No

      The House panel was a Scientology play, so it would be interesting to see what lead up to Fred Goldberg picking the Josephson Institute of Ethics to do this survey, especially considering that this “Ethical” organization leaked results to Scientology’s front group.

  • Ing Soc

    I wrote on this forum a decade ago that that Marty was a fake and many of you mocked me. Now I say f/u and swallow your poison.

    • Mick Roberts

      Funny, this is your first comment. And has the Bunker even been around that long?

      • iampissed

        We’ve been around for a day yes. Funny I can’t hold a grudge much longer then that.
        Some people have more stamina.

        • FredEX2

          I kinda last about 15 minutes. ๐Ÿ˜†

          • iampissed

            Great we can be mad at each other at Howdycon and take turns. This will work out well.

            • FredEX2

              Lol!

            • iampissed

              It only works twice in an hour, so we are mad for 30 mins and then buying drinks for 30 mins.
              Work for you?

            • FredEX2

              Yep, works for me!

      • Ing Soc

        Search Marty’s early defection on this forum. You guys loved him. Loved him!!!! I said then and I say now, Marty is a fake. Swallow your poison and smell your own bowel movements. Anyone looking back will see how you clowns attacked me for attacking Marty.

        I just pooped; now you inhale.

        • Mick Roberts

          Thank you so much Ing Soc……for reminding me we have a Block feature on Disqus.

          • Supper Powers

            That’s gotta be Fly.

            • Mick Roberts

              If it is, imma swat that bastard…

            • flyonthewall

              it ain’t me but he is cracking me up for real

          • FredEX2

            Yep. Thanks for reminding me too Mick. I’m going to use Bunker ‘block tech’ right now.

        • Lliira

          I think if people reacted badly to you (IF), it was likely not your opinions, but your adorable way of expressing them.

          • salin

            ^+10

        • salin

          Such hostility against people who weren’t here at that time. You have many late comers to the conversation with whom you might find commonality with – but instead you chose vileness.

          Inconsequential. Flame/bile thrown at people who had nothing to do with your perceived denigration per your assessment of Marty.

          How about instead sharing with us – who are here now – how you came to these conclusions 10 yrs ago. Instead of flinging shit, you might find some interesting responses to your reflective (10 yrs ago) view point. Then again, after you have hurled insults at everyone here, perhaps that is a pointless endeavor.

          • Liberated

            You tell ’em girl !

        • NerdHerd

          Should we find the Church Lady so you both can do the superior dance?

        • ExCult.Jan

          Where’s the plunger? Way too much juvenile toiletry.

        • Robert Eckert

          Marty’s defection was years before this forum existed.

    • Nat-leficent

      Cool story bro

    • TheMirrorThetan

      And I ride a purple unicorn that farts rainbows and shits emeralds.

      Oh sorry I thought we were just making stupid and useless comments. Carry On.

    • Glen

      Jeez, Ing, that is harsh. I, for one, never mocked you and my guess is relatively few did, if you even are being truthful. You are painting with a very broad ad hominem brush. What is this poison you speak of?

      My usual instinct when someone says “fuck you” to me is to say “fuck me? no fuck you” quite a bit louder. But, for you, I’m sorry for your bitterness. Have a nice evening.

      • Kinda Hubbardy like that, ain’t he?

        • Qbird

          yes. nasty.
          What makes one so?
          I don’t feel icky like this one does. I see no purpose in being an asshole & a creep to others. What is up with that?!
          I think it’s really… sad… & weird.
          Do you even remember this guy, R2?

          • I do. I go back to the VV days and beyond. I’ve been all over the map about Marty. I’m a sucker for redemption, but way too much of a skeptic to be shocked by his behavior. Going Clear showed one Marty. A Marty he wanted you to see. My Scientology Movie showed another Marty. The real Marty. The broken, needy one. Two words come to mind with Marty: Greek tragedy.

            • Qbird
            • Greek tragedy required a great man to be brought low a single, fatal, flaw.
              Sadly Marty is a banal man who has been brought low by multiple flaws.

              I know what you mean. I agree that his life is a tragic waste. I, too, would like to see him redeem himself. However, I have learned two things about redemption over the years. The first is that it really happens. The second is that it happens far more rarely than we would like to think.

              The fact that so many people supported Marty when he seemed to making a new, saner life for himself, and supported him in his struggle against persecution by the CofS does them credit.

              However, sadly, it’s long past time to acknowledge that, whatever is happening, this is not the man he presented himself to be. He is manipulative and untrustworthy.

              The optimism of good people now needs to be transferred to a cause where it might do some good. Keep the faith, and try again.

            • Agreed. And we all know the old adage that begins “Fool me once.” Pretty sure that applies here in spades.

      • Ing Soc

        Glen, the poison is the truth. It doesn’t apply to you.

        When Marty freshly left the cult I posted here he was a fake. Scores of then Marty apologists went on the offensive and attacked me. Now the medicine is too painful for these jokers to handle.

        Not to you, Glen, but to the old farts here I say I told you so and stop crying.

    • Supper Powers

      Are you going to be OK?

    • Observer

      “This forum” was established in 2012.

      • Mick Roberts

        Yeah, but that was five years ago, and if you round up 5 to the nearest decade, viola! #RandomLogic

    • Jimmy3

      I wrote to Dwight D. Eisenhower in length about the Marty Rathbun problem back before the turn of the 19th century, and I was flat out ignored.

      • Mick Roberts

        Well duh! Eisenhower was too damn busy keeping our nation safe from the imminent Mongolian invasion after he won the Civil War!

      • TheMirrorThetan

        Yeah. You think that’s bad. I chiselled a stone tablet to Jesus H Christ over 2000 yrs ago about the Marshy problem. I was ignored too. ๐Ÿ™
        But I got that Jesus back when he ignored my letter about the dodgy shit Judas was up to.
        Look how that turned out.

      • Ing Soc

        Your yanking too hard Jimmy. Try to pull more gently; otherwise you might hurt yourself.

        Marty is the same now as then- fake.

        • Qbird

          It’s personal for you, isn’t it, Ing Soc?
          What did Marty do to you?

        • Jimmy3

          I’m just embarrassed you’re calling me out. I’ve always been a huge Marty fan, and if I’m yanking too hard it’s only because I’m sp nervous. Randos on this blog are crushing my hero.

    • salin

      For those of us who arrived here after that time – I say – why are you dosing out poison? On any online community the participants change over time.

      I understand the “I told you so!” impulse. In my short time here (about 20% of the time span that you are cursing with poison) there have been many who have voiced Marty skepticism, and others who suggested empathy. Regardless of our varied opinions, and despite the fact that most of us weren’t commenting in 2007 on Tony’s Village Voice articles – you wish all of us to be f*cked and die from drinking poison?

      Gee, thanks.

      • Ing Soc

        I’m not addressing you; sorry for the confusion. I talking to the old times on this forum, who now have Alzheimer’s on this forum.

        To all you Marty lovers, and you know who you are, I say smell my flatulence.

    • TexasBroad

      Welcome back Ing Soc. Can I get you some pretzels? You can take them over there to the crabby boy chair.

      • Mick Roberts

        Oh damnit! My bad Ing Soc (I blocked you so have to reply to Tex here). I’m so SO sorry about this. We’re just having a jolly ole snarkin’ good time and your intentions were to get us all pissed off and start flaming you. Sorry, those damn bull-bait TR’s we all successfully completed apparently messed us up something bad….

        • Mick Roberts

          P.S. But many thanks for your contribution in helping us increase the comment count on today’s article! Getting our weekly stats now moving straight up and vertical…..and just in time for 2:00 PM tomorrow!

      • Ing Soc

        No thanks; no pretzels here, just beans here to pass wind in the face of you previous Marty lovers!๐Ÿ˜œ

    • Vaquera
      • Qbird

        oh! Bwahahaha… XD

    • NerdHerd

      Wow, you must be a psychic! You must have won the lottery dozens of times from knowing everything that’s going to happen and live a perfect life. How I envy you……NOT

      • Ing Soc

        Inhale little poo-see, I just passed gas.

        Marty was fake then and he’s fake now.

        • Glen

          Let’s see if I can put this delicately like you are so able to do…..Fuck you.

          • Ing Soc

            What state are in so I can fart in that direction?

            Marty is a con man….

            • Glen

              I surrender to your graceful intelligence. You are way too clever for me.

            • Qbird

              you are correct, Marty is a conman, trained by the greatest conman of the century.
              You ever read what Aaron Saxton writes about Marty?

        • NerdHerd

          I have no interest in your jenkem, nor do you need to share it. All your insults reek of someone else I knew from FB. Please totter off back to the shallow end of the gene pool ๐Ÿ˜€ where you belong…

    • flyonthewall

      I say fuck you Jobu! I do it myself

      • Ing Soc

        Beans and bee flatulencer; does your nostrils enjoy it?

        I’m happy Marty made you look like jack asses.

        • flyonthewall

          I don’t need Marty to look like a jackass

          • ExCult.Jan

            Upvote does not imply I think you’re a jackass. Upvote is for such a Fly Reply.

            • iampissed

              That

    • PattyCakenfeld

      Is it possible you’re perhaps confusing mocking with disagreement?

      Not saying this applies to you because I wasn’t around at the time, but how many people have we all seen on public forums who interpret counter arguments as “piling on” or “attacks” and get butthurt. If anyone holds a minority opinion, they should be prepared to own it.

      • Ing Soc

        I welcome polemics; they were insults defending Marty.

        • PattyCakenfeld

          If true, that seems ruder to me than people here tend to be, as well as hypocritical since most commenters generally deride Scientology for their name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

          • Ing Soc

            The history is posted somewhere here, the exact date I’m not sure, but it was early when Marty left. I merely posted that, in my opinion, Marty was a fake and a con man. A hornets nest of name calling followed. I returned now after nearly 10 years laters to say, basically, I told you so.

            This forum is filled with ex cult members who don’t realize they’re still psychologically in the cult; bullbaiting and name calling while in the cult and duplicating that now.

            I relish disagreement, because it offers me a chance to grow. You’ll see in these ex cult members can not tolerate disagreement. It’s lingering longterm damage from living in the cult.

            • I’m not, and never have been a member – but I still recognise your tactics.

              Stir people up with crude insults then present yourself as ever so reasonable (as you do in this post). If someone comes across it out of context, it makes it look as if you are being picked on.

              The only disagreement you relish is that which you have stirred up yourself, with some not very original abuse.

              *yawn*

    • Qbird

      You poor thing, bless your heart. And your poo-poo IS smelly! omg!

      Here, fill this out & come back in another decade: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a0290e03b3d87d640349814de56a34bd327cd34b30d4d2b6c946770eef69f83f.jpg

    • ReneeG

      Dox or stfu

      • Ing Soc

        Renee is obviously unable to find her G spot.

        Inhale!

        You Marty lovers are making my case.

        • NerdHerd

          Nor are you able to find dox ๐Ÿ˜‰ so I guess that means you should STFU. Why keep yammering on? It just shows how sore your bum is hun

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      We still mock you and will continue to mock you.

      • Ing Soc

        I passed wind then and do so now. Inhale little poo-see!

        Reminding you of Marty is causing butthurt I see.

        Inhale! Tax the cult!

        • Gus Cox

          I wave my private parts at your Auntie. So nya.

      • EmmaDaoust

        We will we will mock you everybody sing it

        • Philbyification

          lol

    • Spackle Motion

      The Bunker wasn’t around a decade ago.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Well, since the mighty $cn warrior looks like he’s going down for the count, that will leave our anti-anti-$cn cult without a leader. So, if you could just see your way clear to being a little nicer we might be prepared to adulate you and make you our new dear leader!

      Btw, I never believed in Mutty either, so it’s good to know my Super Douche Weasel alert system was working fine.

    • Robert Eckert

      This forum did not exist a decade ago.

  • UhLasare

    David Miscavige’s own words in “The War is Over” speech:

    “And just to ensure the pressure was really on, the tax collection branch of the IRS was set loose. They froze church bank accounts. Issued a warrant to seize church property. Started calculating a trumped-up tax bill that would reach upwards of a billion dollars. And just for good measure, started hitting the top church executives with arbitrary assessments totaling millions of dollars.”

    https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/speech.html

    • Supper Powers

      All the contradictory facts, yes Marty is aware are contradictory. But the person who wrote this out for him to read and riff on does not have the Google.

  • Scientology front-group Narconon promoting itself as Christian and Christ-Centered Rehab?

    https://twitter.com/IndieScieNews/status/875186431085486080

  • Clearwater City Council again thwarts Scientology land deal. [NOTE: This does not concern the former Clearwater Marine Aquarium property.]

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/clearwater-city-council-again-thwarts-scientology-land-deal/2327316

    /

    • PattyCakenfeld

      The antagonistic history of Scientology: cutting off its nose to spite its face since 1954.

    • Aslan’s Own

      Cue random Scientology spokesperson accusing the city of “bigotry,”

    • PeaceMaker

      Thanks for that news update.

      For anyone who hasn’t followed this, it wasn’t a straightforward land deal, but a sort of troika thing with a third party inserting themselves in a dubious way – read about it if you’re interested.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      I love this from the artlcle: “City Manager Bill Horne said the church stopped returning the city’s emails and phone calls after the City Council bought the aquarium land in April. The council had originally been scheduled to discuss the swap of the three unrelated city parcels last month, but the vote was postponed because of the lack of communication until Scientology officials met with Horne and city attorney Pam Akin May 31.”

      Again they have brought this on themselves.

      • Graham

        That Dave Miscavige; still being a petty little bitch.

    • Juicer77

      I still want to know more about landowner Bonneville. He is either playing both sides to get the most money for his land, or he is in cahoots with the Co$.
      And who proposed this swap in the first place?
      And LOL at the Co$ attorney whining about a $75k nonrefundable deposit. Irony, much? Offering $15 mil – 4x the book value – for the aquarium parcel shows that the Co$ has money to burn and no scruples at all.

      • Juicer77

        And… glad the city is putting on the record that the Co$ has “disconnected” and stopped all communication with them.

  • flyonthewall

    Jimmy, if you’re around, can you give me a ride to the Kumite this weekend? I lost my bus pass

    • Jimmy3

      I was gonna ask you for a ride to the bus stop

      • You two are such a cute couple.

      • flyonthewall

        Shit. How am I going to defeat Chong and avenge my buddy? Not good.

    • abdaman

      how russian ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Qbird

      Hiya Dodo ~ I definitely have a public life & a private one… but I really have no secret life.

      This is my opinion. Heart on my sleeve, open book kind of person… unafraid to share.

    • ExCult.Jan

      Do tell, Dodo.

  • Squints

    Nothing on the telly, so just reading the comments. y’all are killin it.

  • J. Swift

    Liars can never keep track of their lies.

    • mockingbird

      In fairness some are better than others. Oddly the ones that lie most are often terrible at it . Practice doesn’t help them.

      Marty Rathbun has been at it a long time and in my opinion is not very good.

      • J. Swift

        Marty doesn’t seem realize that if he is ever put in front of a Grand Jury that questions about this video will be asked.

        If Rathbun thinks that he’s out of the woods or untouchable he needs to think again.

        • mockingbird

          At least he doesn’t have a special prosecutor investigating him ! Yet ! I think ! Maybe .

        • mockingbird

          At least he doesn’t have thousands of contradiction filled Tweets to expose. I think.

        • Boston Terrier Dad

          Perhaps this is his method to avoid being deposed. Would be seen as an inconsistent witness.

    • Bob Crouch

      Thankfully, the internet will do that for them!

  • Spackle Motion

    It is bittersweet that many of the same people on this and the VV blog (including the proprietor) who chastised and rankled me over the years due to my anti-Rathbun comments are now saying very similar criticisms about him.

    His turncoat behavior now has invalidated just about every thing he said/did since 2009 and is no longer worthy for main stream media. It is probably best for all to stop paying him any attention since that is what feeds his broken and inflated ego. As they say, don’t feed the troll.

    • mockingbird

      I criticized his writings as factually innacurate and Hubbard like a couple years ago. I said his writing style was similar to Hubbard’s and he was getting authority he didn’t deserve. Opinions varied.

    • ReneeG

      Nice to see you posting again! You were, indeed, very consistent in your distrust of Marty. But I don’t think he’s trolling– he’s playing some sort of Machiavellian game here. I honestly don’t believe he gives a rat’s ass about getting our attention; either Mosey left him and he’s gone nuts or he’s involved in some sort of sick mano a mano game with Miscavige. This is all about Miscavige and/or Mosey. He may have sold his soul to DM for financial security and peace for his child. Or maybe he’s doing the double agent thing trying to get back close enough to Miscavige to damage him from the INSIDE. Its quite possible to consider that he thinks he is capable of getting money AND destroying Miscavige, with the extra added bonus of “saving” Scientology and restoring it to its former glory. Regardless, I am quite curious to see how this plays out.

      • Spackle Motion

        Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I still come here. It is a great news resource.

        I still think the ‘payoff’ was some sort of qualified pension that was retroactive. This way, it is not a settlement of the lawsuit and unfortunately Rathbun’s attorneys cannot attach it.

        • ReneeG

          That’s a smart guess. I hope we find out one day.

  • mockingbird

    Now they can rerelease We Stand Tall and just focus on Marty and David Miscavige.

  • Ing Soc

    You poor things; you just can’t get free of the cult.

    Marty hasn’t changed, and neither have you.

    Tax the cult!

    And yes, smell my farts you ugly apes.

  • TexasBroad

    The Westboro folks are showing up close to me the weekend I’m at HowdyCon. The pastor of the Baptist Church where they are protesting has no idea why they are a chosen target and put out a letter to parishioners to ignore if possible and be polite and dignified if it’s necessary to engage.
    If you haven’t seen the two Louis Theroux documentaries on the “most hated family in America” I highly recommend.

    • Mick Roberts

      I saw them once about 30 minutes from where I live. I agree to just ignore them. They’re just despicable trolls trying to bait people into attacking them so they can sue the city for not providing them with “proper protection of their First Amendment rights”.

      • TexasBroad

        They are three (4?) generations into abusive, destructive indoctrination using all the familiar techniques. They are such a stark example of the “prison of belief” — so much poison inflicted generationally from one abusive man. But they are born into it and isolated…I hope the cycle breaks down.

    • Philbyification

      Ewwww!

    • Glen

      I have such great admiration for those born in who were able to break away. I think one is a nurse and is featured in a Ted talk. I think Laura is living in the northeast, married, happy and doing really well as a fitness coach. Hard stuff being shunned by your family but there is a healing process.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Well, now here is the mental health theory.

    I listened to the Intro and Tape 1, and skipped the rest to listen now just to today’s video on Marty’s blog. It got me thinking about Marty’s own history. In his review of one of Martyโ€˜s books, Tony wrote, โ€œHis mother later jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, and his two older brothers each suffered from schizophrenia: the oldest, Scott, is institutionalized to this day. The middle brother, Bruce, was committed to the Oregon institution where One Flew Over the Cuckooโ€™s Nest was filmed. (Bruce later was killed after starting a bar fight.)โ€ (http://tonyortega.org/2013/05/29/marty-rathbun-builds-his-warrior-legend-in-new-memoir/)

    It is generally now thought that schizophrenia is in part genetic, although it has a very complex etiology. But Marty joined $cientology to try to help his brother Bruce, and has clearly suffered much from the pain his own family went through. An easy mark for a coercive mind control cult that specializes in identifying the vulnerabilities of its potential victims, and using hypnosis and other means to push hard and control them.

    Money aside, it seems to me that Marty has always been psychologically vulnerable – like John Travolta when his son died, needing to repress the guilt for not giving him medicine and cover up his doubts with the 24/7 influence of his $cientology handlers.

    I feel a bit sorry for Marty โ€“ not to excuse his reprehensible behavior โ€“ but he has been a tool of this organization for so many years that his own authentic pre-cult self (as Steve Hassan refers to it) is deeply buried, and his emotional instability is now layered on top.

    • abdaman

      Wow, what important insight this gives into Marty’s character, thx FMFH

    • UhLasare

      Marty makes me more sad than mad. I wish he could have peace and be at peace with others.

    • Joy Lover (Ex-CS)

      Link says ‘Not Found’?

  • abdaman

    I don’t know if it’s a slow news week, but I for one am not crazy about these posts dealing with Marty and his ramblings. It feels like it’s giving him more credence and stature than he and his easily discredited ideas are worth. This is a highly respected blog and Marty belongs somewhere distantly beneath it, perhaps in the comment section. Would you hand a microphone that broadcasted to thousands of people to a rambling bum on the street to talk about important issues that seriously impacted folks? At this point, with Marty’s serial lying, unfounded accusations, faulty memory and just plain butthurtedness, that analogy is not so far off the mark. I understand there is value in picking apart his arguments one by one, but could we not relegate that to the comment section (Or at least a one-time blog post, instead of a new post every day he puts a video out)? For that is surly where someone who has shown such righteous indifference to all the pain and suffering he has caused belongs IMO. He is not a reliable news source, he is not an important person anymore, and he is a person who thrives off being the center of attention (whether the attention is good or bad) and I feel that he is just eating this up. The reality is, NOBODY should be caring about what Marty says or thinks.

    • abdaman, I strongly disagree. I believe Tony is performing a very valuable service. Whether or not people “should” care about what Marty says or thinks is irrelevant. Some people WILL, in fact, care what Marty says and thinks. Further, a lie, misrepresentation, or omission that remains unrefuted is, sadly, often believed. Perhaps not by the regular commentators here, but by others. I think it important that Marty’s lies, misrepresentations, omissions and inconstancies regarding Scientology, Going Clear, etc. not go unchallenged lest some people come to believe them. (Again, not any of the regulars here.)

      Finally, there is no evidence that Tony’s coverage of Marty’s videos is diverting his attention or resources from other, pressing news. I make an effort to stay on top of Scientology news, and it is not like Tony is missing anything.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        ” I think it important that Marty’s lies, misrepresentations, omissions
        and inconstancies regarding Scientology, Going Clear, etc. not go
        unchallenged lest some people come to believe them.”

        Raaa-men to that. If Mutty’s mad mumblings don’t get debunked first and best here in the Bunker, then we might as well pack up and go home.

        No one should grudge Mutty his last few moments of fame, er, notoriety. They’re sure to be his last for a good long while.

      • abdaman

        ISN I never said that it was not valuable to pick apart Marty’s ramblings, in fact i anticipated that argument and anticipated my reply to it in my original post:

        “I understand there is value in picking apart his arguments one by one, but could we not relegate that to the comment section (Or at least a one-time blog post, instead of a new post every day he puts a video out)”

        While I hoped that I had done enough to address that important argument that there is value in deconstructing marty’s videos– to make clear that i AGREED with that sentiment and the average reader would understand that my point was conversley about the nuances of what platforms are used and by whom to make such critiques, apparently I hoped in vain. So I’ll spell it out a bit more clearly. I don’t take issue with deconstructing his arguments, what I take issue with is a new post about him every day he puts one of these mind-numbingly stupid videos out, having him at the top of the post or having the post be solely about him on a blog that I view as above that. As i said IMO this blog belongs on a higher tier, and picking apart the arguments of trolls, which is what Marty is at this point, is better left to a one-time post that addresses all of the situation in one go or relegated to the comment section. And to wrap all that up, it’s only my personal opinion about the way i PERSONALLY view the caliber of this blog when compared to the caliber of Marty Rathbun.

        And also to suggest that I implied the journalist was deliberately diverting resources away from other pressing news stories is lightyears away from anything i said and is down right insulting as that would be a very serious charge to make against a journalist. I specifically assumed it was a slow news week in the world of scientology at the outset of my post. If you are unfamiliar with that term it means that there are no other “pressing news” stories out there for the journalist to report. Please rethink your choice of words as I do not appreciate that accusation at all.

      • And the number of comments here has just expanded to cover Marty as well as the story of the day.

        Those who aren’t interested (and I understand that) can simply collapse the relevant threads.

    • Juicer77

      I understand, it is exasperating giving him so much attention. But there is a bigger story brewing here, from the comments Tony has made. And above all, this whole story is an example of how hard it is to extricate oneself from Hubbardthink and long-established behavioral patterns.

      • And that story is being carefully set up so that, when it breaks, there won’t be so much back-story to explain.

        • Juicer77

          Exactly. Can you imagine the length of that post??

          • Also, I have noticed something about Tony’s style.

            He will go for the scoop, but prefers it when there is more than meets the eye to a story. You often get the story behind the story – one that is more interesting than the bare facts that took so much trouble to uncover.

            There’s a story behind this story, and it’s a significant one, or he wouldn’t be teasing it.

    • Nobody does. It’s the implications that matter – what (if anything) is going on behind the scenes to bring about his extraordinary reversals.

      He’s also such a wonderful study in the psychology of Scientology ‘executives’ – although he lost his ‘high office’ years ago, he is still behaving as if he is entitled to authority, and that gives us some insight into how he (and others) behave when they do have power.

  • Philbyification

    O/T Trump now under personal investigation for obstruction.

    • Mockingbird

      Great. Can we also get an investigation on Marty Rathbun and David Miscavige ? Please ?

      • Philbyification

        Only if it includes their friend Alex Jones!! lol

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    Monique Yingling on Marty Rathbun and Scientology’s tax exemption:

    Gibneyโ€™s crediting his sleazy source, Marty Rathbun, with a major role in the negotiations with the IRS is misplaced: I personally attended every one of the dozens of meetings; Rathbun was little more than a bag
    carrier, and a poor one at that.

    Monique Yingling attacked Alex Gibney for using sleazy bag carrier Marty Rathbun as a source. However, now that we in RTC have flipped Marty, Monique Yingling has issued a new statement:

    Marty Rathbun was a wonderful bag carrier. He was just confused about what he told Alex Gibney because, unfortunately, Marty can’t read. All Marty can do is parrot big legal words we wog lawyers use. Even LRH literacy tech couldn’t help Marty, the poor thing.

  • Ing Soc

    I fart in your faces you ugly apes. See attached.

    See how foolish you old timers look?

    Marty is a con man, and you then Marty lovers need to eat my she-at.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4635e4681486dad82ee4c965963b3132589069e45afcc06ad09cdb16c5347048.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4dcdb7e3e94fae61214c4fc8f717e7f4adba293d28dec8a14468db715081e31.png

    • Jimmy3

      1 reply from a guy who was still struggling to come to grips with his own investments after leaving the CoS.

      You know you look like an idiot right now.

      • Ing Soc

        Jimmy stitch hands, your gonna hurt yourself.

        • Jimmy3

          You’ve been bitching all night about how you were mocked and scolded by the bunker, and you come back with 1 mild reply from Bob. That’s quite pathetic man.

          • Ing Soc

            What’s pathetic is how hard you pull. Try knitting rather than jerking, Jimmy boy.

            • Jimmy3

              Whenever you’re done fantasizing about me, go find where the Bunker mocked you for not trusting Marty. You seem pretty upset about it, so it had to have happened.

            • Ing Soc

              Jimmy your mother called; she’s still disappointed.

    • Marty is a deep-derp double-double agent. His new videos tell everyone exactly where to dig for the dirt on Scientology.

    • abdaman

      are you seriously still going on about some comment that some random person made to you a DECADE ago? newsflash nobody here is bob or agrees with bob. Get. A. Life.

  • Taffy Sinclair

    That pic of the 2 little girls makes me want to cry. “The Purif” @ age 9????

    I just can’t w/ these fucking buffoons. I really cannot handle the evil.
    And evil is something I know all too well, having been a victim of it. But I triumph! Can these 2 young girls do the same? I hope to G-d SOMEONE is looking out for them…

  • Patricia Lathrom

    What is up with Marty? Why is he tearing Wright’s book apart? Who is he talking to in his video? Why is his comments section closed? This is all very puzzling. Six years ago, I was a huge fan of Marty’s. I’d check his blog every day. He was saying things that i didn’t even dare think. He was an inspiration.

    And now! He is pissed that Wright is focused on the negative aspects of Scientology? He is pissed that Wright isn’t judging Hubbard on his entire body of work? Seriously. Hubbard’s entire body of work was based on a false premise i.e. that the source of all of mankind’s problems were ENGRAMS. I bought into that, for a long time, but since leaving realize that his theory is absurd. The fact Hubbard believed this, the fact he spent his entire life fiddling with that premise doesn’t make it true. The fact it wasn’t true and that his organization harmed many people is verifiable. The fact that Hubbard benefited greatly from his fake science is also verifiable. What is this amazing body of work that Wright is supposed to acknowledge? That he was a prolific writer and speech giver?

    Did Marty take another bite out of the poison apple? Is he doing a step of the Liability Formula which is to strike an effective blow to the enemy? If that is the case, I feel very sorry for him.

    I will say this about Hubbard. He did develop a therapy that has helped some people with some issues. I can give him credit for that. But the source of all man’s problem? The path to super powers and total spiritual freedom? No way!!! the hype of a huckster.

    • Juicer77

      It’s hard to understand where this is all going (ETA: re Rathbun). I agree except on one point – IMHO (and feel free to disagree) Hubbard did not develop the therapy he sold. He cribbed and borrowed from other sources. But I totally understand that you feel you got some benefit from them, and acknowledging that is healthy and honest.

      • The original version of Dianetics is plainly a rip-off of the now discredited therapy of psychoanalysis.

        That was based on the proposition that traumatic memories were sometimes repressed, but the struggle to keep them out of consciousness had consequences in the form of neurotic symptoms. By bringing repressed memories to consciousness (and helping the patient deal with the trauma) the neurosis could allegedly be relieved.

        Psychoanalysts acknowledged that their treatment was long and gruelling (and expensive) but presented it as worthwhile.

        Displaying a total lack of understanding of the medical term ‘psychosomatic’ Hubbard just added a few features. His only slightly different ideas were supposed to cure .80% of physical disease and all psychiatric ones.

        After temporarily losing the copyright to dianetics, he added ‘previous lives’ to the mix to make its replacement, Scientology, distinctive. People don’t see the clear similarities now because of all the wild nonsense that Hubbard added over the years. However, at the beginning, dianetics was clearly an unoriginal rip-off of psychoanalysis.

        All Hubbard added was wild claims and the assurance that (for a fee) people could launch a new prestigious career as a dianetic ‘therapist’ without all the training that is required for a real medical career.

        • Mockingbird

          I think some clarification is in order. Jon Atack in his recent interview with Jeffrey Augustine reported something very precise. It’s consistent with more general claims I have seen before.

          He said Hubbard was on a ship with the commander Snake Thompson Hubbard claimed studying under. Hubbard claimed Thompson taught him Freudian theory.

          In 1911 Freud delivered lectures which Jon Atack said could have been available translated to English for Thompson at the time. Jon said the lectures contained Freudian Abreactive Therapy with many elements that ended up in Dianetics and Jon listed several.

          Psychoanalysis in several other forms survives today. I can’t account for its effectiveness but can say several forms exist and are not identical.

          Jon described something I have heard several times regarding Abreactive Therapy aka catharsis therapy. It’s been tried with hopeful enthusiasm several times in the 1900s and abandoned each time due to get few and poor results and through transference creating dependence on the practitioner by the patient.

          Hubbard had that information available before 1950. It was a hypnotic technique that failed to relieve trauma and gave far too much influence and authority to the practitioner through a hypnotic therapy.

          I don’t recommend for or against the newer forms of psychoanalysis. I would need more information to form an educated opinion.

          Additionally, Scientology has ideas stolen directly from hypnotist Volney Mathison and his Creative Image Therapy including the E Emeter which Mathison invented. The Scientology auditing and theory including past lives has many occult ideas such as ones found in the work of Crowley’s books and the Rosicrucians who Hubbard reportedly joined as well as the occult text from the 1800s the OAHSPE, among many others.

          I think Jon Atack’s idea that Dianetics initially primarily was repackaged Freudian therapy from 1911 used as an attempt at covert persuasion and that much of Scientology was repackaged Mathison methodology and occult practices.

          I saw bits of occult ideas in Dianetics too and psychology in Scientology. Hubbard wasn’t shy about mixing and matching ideas.

          I recently read Le Bon’s the Crowd and feel Hubbard using several of that book’s ideas is extremely plausible, particularly regarding keeping certain ideas hidden to gain prestige and the importance of prestige aka altitude aka authority.

          • Psychoanalysis was a well-know therapy, with many rival schools, when Hubbard was writing “Dianetics”.

            Analysis was (and is) a long an arduous process which requires the analysand (the person receiving the therapy) to pay a lot of money to the analyst for a long time.

            That’s a motive for Hubbard to emulate Psychoanalysis right there – the business model. He also aped the terminology (analysand became pre-clear, for example)

            • Juicer77

              (sits quietly and listens to the debate)

            • Jimmy3

              (throws a half-eaten pretzel at juicer)

            • Juicer77

              (catches it neatly and shoves it in her mouth)

            • Life is strange. I have never seen a pretzel. They aren’t a thing in my end of England. Pasties are everywhere. Bacon sandwiches, donuts and even doner kebabs are popular. No pretzels, though.

              Yesterday, I took a short cut through the awful ‘mall’ in the middle of Plymouth, where all the expensive retailers are – lo, and behold, a little Pretzel outlet.

              Seriously – it’s the first time I’ve actually seen one of the damn things. They don’t look very tasty, and I have no ambition to straighten any..

            • Juicer77
            • Too fancy for me. I’m the kind of guy who looks forward to Christmas because Lidl stocks stollen.

            • Juicer77

              LOL. I got homemade stollen as a kid. #spoiled

            • I like those drinks which are mostly carrot juice, but don’t taste like it, that you get in Polish shops, too.

            • Andrew Robertson

              The British don’t need nasty foreign twisted food when they have their own tasty delights:

              Deep fried Mars Bars:

              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b41084d7cb2669e4e25d7cf7da1fda48597abd61775ce8d012249910cfd00060.jpg

            • Mars bars (and Cadbury’s creme eggs) deep-fried in batter originated in Scottish chip shops. While England is not a culinary paradise we have never quite gone that far.

              It used to be said that Europe would be paradise if the English provided the police, the Germans the engineers and the French the cooks. It would be hell on Earth if the Germans were the police, the French were the engineers and the English did all the cooking.

        • Mockingbird

          I don’t know how familiar you are with Dianetics and Scientology auditing but I must stress the practices are extremely different. The commands, style of communication, presence of the E Meter and hundreds of other details differ. The theory is different.

          I frankly think the idea Jon Atack expressed in his interview with Jeffrey Augustine that Dianetics was plagiarized primarily from Freud’s 1911 lectures as summarized by Snake Thompson to young Hubbard and Scientology was plagiarized primarily from Mathison and occult practices is a good description of the genesis of each practice. They both added a lot more over time.

          • I was confining myself to the Book “Dianetics”. That text was an obvious rip-off of psychoanalysis.

            The rest of the practices you mention developed over time, and obscured this fact. However, if you go back to the book, it’s obvious that, in the beginning that psychoanalysis was a major influence .

            • Mockingbird

              I am not disagreeing. I am saying you are correct but that even more specific degrees of separation are accurate. Within Freudian psychoanalysis there are to my understanding multiple ideas and methods.

              I think Jon Atack’s description of Hubbard initially in his trip onboard a ship at the same time as Snake Thompson likely only had available to him the ideas Freud released in his 1911 lectures.

              The fact that psychoanalysis evolved past that and that Freud and reportedly many, many other doctors rejected the Abreactive Therapy style of therapy and all for the same reason is important.

              Forms of psychoanalysis persist to today, but many others had rejected the kind Dianetics was plagiarized from decades earlier. Variations even popped up later to similarly be abandoned as unsuccessful and harmful.

            • Psychoanalysis is a perfect example of pseudo-science – one that achieved great influence but ultimately was as wrong, and as wrongly arrived at, as the medieval theory of humours. In fact, come to think of it, there is a strange parallel with Scientology here.

              The Freudian school was only one of many. Many pupils of Freud went their own ways. There was Alfred Adler – who invented the Orgone box – a truly crazy feat of quack medicine. There was also Karl Jung, who invented the ‘collective unconscious’ and ‘treated’ people by looking for archetypes of racial memory talk therapy.

              Wait a minute – a charismatic individual (Freud) collected a group of followers around him, claiming that he had invented a therapy that would cure mental illnesses – but didn’t have any objective evidence to support it. Soon afterwards, a theory about ‘previous lives’ (aka the collective unconscious’) emerged (from Jung).

              Nobody ever provided evidence in a reliable form – e.g. double blind, controlled trials.

              The problem with psychoanalysis is that subjective observations were taken as fact and woven into imaginative theories with no validity (as demonstrates by the ways in which the teachings of Freud’s pupils diverged so dramatically).

              To be honest, I think the whole ‘Snake Thompson thing is a bit of a stretch because, although it may have happened, it was not necessary to explain Hubbard’s superficial grasp of psychoanalysis. At the time he was writing “Dianetics” psychoanalysis was a popular therapy among people who could afford it – and it provided a compelling business model for dianetics.

            • Mockingbird

              I think it’s important because it’s a case of Hubbard having ADMITTED taking ideas from Freud and using them in his doctrine. And Jon Atack reported the passenger list showed Hubbard and Thompson on the same ship on the same journey.

              To some die hard Scientologists you need Hubbard’s OWN WORDS to have any hope of getting them to consider ideas. Jon Atack in my opinion understands that.

              I understand that to an outsider far less evidence is required but unfortunately some Scientologists only take Hubbard’s words as proof of anything.

              A much broader conversation about psychoanalysis and its variations is possible, but I primarily deal with it only as Hubbard plagiarized from it and the failure it had before his use is related to its failure in Dianetics and Scientology in my opinion.

            • What you see as Hubbard admitting something, can also be interpreted as Hubbard making claims of knowledge that he never acquired.

              We know that these two people were on a ship together and we know that Hubbard claimed that he taught by a supposed expert. However, I was on once on a bus with an opera singer, and I still can’t sing a note. Claiming don’t make it so.

              Hubbard’s own words might be a way to reach Scientologists but we have to be careful that they demonstrate a valid criticism and cant be explained away.

              As for the broader conversation – sometimes you need in-depth knowledge of things outside of Scientology to understand Scientology. – and you never know when that will be.

            • mockingbird

              I focus on getting Scientologists and exes to consider ideas. They are my primary audience. I don’t believe Hubbard became an expert in Freudian psychoanalysis but that he plagiarized ideas that became Dianetics. I am content to offer people whatever honest evidence helps them to look at Scientology and see if it may not be what Hubbard claimed.

              For some his words carry more weight than anything else. So, I try to find his words to inspire questions that are relevant to unraveling Scientology.

              For many Scientologists only Hubbard himself can tell them anything. He tells them who he is if you look in the right places. Like the affirmations.

            • Fair enough.

              From my point of view any simple truth that contradicts Hubbard’s words is enough to question his reliability, but if you aiming to reach Scientologists I suppose that is not the best approach.

            • Mockingbird

              I think you routinely need knowledge outside of Scientology to understand Scientology. I don’t know exactly how in depth you consider my knowledge as a layman but I have made a serious effort to examine hypnosis, cults, aspects of social psychology, rhetoric, mass movements and related subjects. Obviously I have a mere high school level education.

              I have obviously read a few dozen books since exiting Scientology in various areas but cannot claim in depth knowledge of the university degree kind, not even from a diploma mill.

            • I wasn’t thinking about pre-existing knowledge. I was thinking of the way in which understanding of Scientology requires research outside of it, not just analysing Hubbard’s words.

              That’s on my mind because I have recently formulated a few ideas regarding the origin of the early TRs that draws on a whole load of stuff external to Scientology.

            • Mockingbird

              Well, there’s been a lot said about the TRs. Nibs said he came up with them to control students. It’s also been said Hubbard took ideas from hypnosis and I have even actually seen Hubbard’s quotes from the fifties that describe exactly one method of hypnosis that is the book and bottle procedure. There are other examples and some experts have called certain TRs the most obvious attempt at hypnosis they have seen.

              Obviously, I have researched outside Scientology to find descriptions of hypnosis outside Scientology.

            • My theory does not involve hypnosis as such… but a practice that you might characterise as hypnotic (although I would not).

            • Mockingbird

              It is a vast area in persuasion and numerous ideas on influence and rhetoric exist. Some are called hypnosis and some are not.

              The important thing with Hubbard is to examine several trains of thought simultaneously. First, what Hubbard told a Scientologist he was doing and what the Scientologists believe they are doing as students, auditors, staff, word clearers etc, what they think matters to a degree.

              Second, what Hubbard thought they were doing. In other words what he was trying to do to them and get them to do to each other and for him. I believe he was trying to use covert persuasion through his imperfect understanding of hypnosis and psychology and rhetoric to secretly and permanently enslave people. His affirmations certainly support this as does a body of quotes I have shared a fraction of at Mockingbird’s Nest.

              Third, and perhaps most difficult to find is what he actually did to people and what they in turn did to themselves and one another in Dianetics and Scientology. I honestly believe Hubbard’s understanding of the effects of Scientology were imperfect and though he was successful with some Scientologists at gaining longstanding fanatics and zealots with the vast, vast majority of people his efforts were a dismal failure.

              Most people never bit, and of those that did buy a book or course most never bought another and of those that were in two months most didn’t stay six , and of those that stayed a year or two most didn’t stay five. At every turn or measure he lost more than he retained.

              It’s a wonder Scientology even boomed in the sixties at all.

              And even of the decades long members like myself most reject Scientology and Hubbard completely more often than not.

              So, his rate of success is extremely limited and qualified.

              So, that supports my idea that his understanding of the mind was incredibly limited and incomplete. I think he took lots of ideas from hypnosis and they succeeded far less than he thought they should and he just kept plagiarizing more and more to try and keep the con going and to find the winning combination, which he never did.

            • Mockingbird

              I think to understand Scientology you really have to make at least a brief study of several subjects, even if you don’t believe the subjects are valid !

              Some subjects were believed by Hubbard so in examination of those his plagiarism and intention becomes apparent. It’s like studying Voodoo to understand the efforts of a witch doctor. It doesn’t mean you believe in magic. It means you understand the witch doctor believes. And that is the important part.

              Then there are other subjects outside Hubbard’s understanding. He had a kind of Reader’s Digest education on many subjects. He plagiarized from psychology and rhetoric but likely didn’t understand them well.

              A watcher of Scientology may need a better education on psychology than Hubbard to understand him and Scientology.

            • Mockingbird

              I remember recently seeing someone say TRs were plagiarized from the theory of someone else. I don’t remember quite who.

            • If you remember I’d be interested – but my notion is that it comes from a stranger source, in Hubbard’s part.

            • Mockingbird

              Ugh, it may have been a passing comment here. I don’t recall. Rats. Maybe it will come to me.

            • Mockingbird

              Maybe a better way to put it is a Scientologist will consider that Hubbard got an idea from someone else IF I have a Hubbard quote supporting my claim. I have talked to enough of them to see that.

            • The danger is that you appear to accept that Hubbard was a ‘mastermind ‘ who understood all that stuff and effectively deployed it, which is not the case.

              I’ll take true over persuasive because is is more durable.

            • Mockingbird

              I am not saying he was a mastermind or a sane mind. I accept that he believed that he was and his followers certainly do.

              I am very convinced Hubbard didn’t understand persuasion and believed quite a bit that wasn’t true. But he plagiarized so many ideas from so many sources that some due to whatever combination of reasons achived some success.

              He had an incredibly low success rate and a heck of a time retaining people. But of a small percentage that he did retain he had a tremendous effect on them.

              If his understanding of persuasion was better his success rate would have been as well. So, though he tried to have a covert hypnosis based thought reform program it failed far, far more than it succeeded.

              He tried to use information he pursued for decades but never found. Perhaps his initial idea that hypnosis would be the beginning and end of the subject was a fundamental flaw in the foundation of his efforts.

              I don’t think anyone has ever achieved the degree of success at persuasion Hubbard desired through hypnosis. If they did, Hubbard never found their methods.

              I think the whole subject involves too many maybes for most people. Some people are successfully persuaded by hypnosis and most aren’t. Some hypnotists are good and in my opinion almost everyone is not a good hypnotist and even fewer are great.

              It’s incredibly difficult to evaluate scientifically because you actually need to duplicate the quality of the hypnotist. That’s impossible.

              It’s like trying to do an experiment requiring an artist or comedian and reproducing the results.

              Perhaps experiments with highly hypnotizable people and moderately skilled hypnotists using the exact same rooms, commands, eye contact, body language etc. can be attempted to duplicate results, but variables still exist.

              Hubbard’s unscientific approach didn’t recognize the limits of his lone analysis of hypnosis. He just never respected scientific research or the opinions of others.

              I think even more scientific minds tried to understand hypnosis with better methods of analysis and never found the truth. I should say far brighter minds and much, much better research methods have been used regarding hypnosis and not adequately resolved major questions on the subject.

              So, I certainly don’t see Hubbard as a mastermind as much as a prolific plagiarist and one that gleened a tiny bit on hypnosis above his usual Reader’s Digest education on other subjects. Really he stuck with whatever got any desirable results without understanding why.

              His hypnotic theories probably would be described as having the tiniest sliver of success to back unscientific notions. The rarely found successful method was used over and over. Hubbard tried hundreds of hypnotic techniques and repackaged them as therapy. His audacity was astounding.

              He tried and tried ideas and occasionally through whatever methods found something he considered successful and used it again and again.

              Through extensive trial and blunders he came upon a combination of methods that worked some of the time. But I think never in ways he fully understood. And never to the degree Hubbard wanted.

            • I think we have come a lot closer here. My view is that Hubbard had an overriding need for control. the degree of control he wanted was impossible, and he certainly didn’t have the intellect to achieve this by manipulation (although he was a good face-to-face con men).

              That ability enabled him to con a small group of people – the editor of “Astounding Science Fiction” and his circle – who gave his career as a guru a considerable jump start by promoting dianetics.

              This enabled him to draw in a population of talented (but credulous) people who were wiling to serve ‘the great man’. They kept the organisation running, provided Guinea pigs, and added ideas to those he picked up which he thought would appeal to popular culture.

              Basically, he threw a lot of shit against the wall, and built on the bit that stuck.

              However, I do have a problem with ‘hypnosis’ as an explanation for Scientology – except as a metaphor for a larger process of psychological manipulation. Also, I think that social pressures which emerged from the situation explain a lot about Scientology.

            • Mockingbird

              I have written a lot about the ideas and terms in persuasion related to persuasion and influence within rhetoric that aren’t supported by actual physical structures that can be observed like nerves, regions of the brain and cells all being best understood as metaphors of the mind.

              Even simple terms like thought and imagination reflect functions that in theory involve structures and without a thorough proof of the structures and how they function we are actually using metaphors.

              Metaphors are stories without solid observable and verifiable scientific evidence. Most of the time we don’t make such a fine distinction because it is not natural to the majority of our thinking.

              Hypnosis is several things. It is a subject. I understand creationism is a subject and philosophy. My understanding of that fact is not related to my personal lack of belief in the concept.

              Similarly hypnosis is a subject that Hubbard took hundreds of ideas from. I believe he sincerely believed in the subject. Not as a therapy, but as a way to covertly control and enslave people.

              The subject as it is described in many schools of hypnosis is not scientifically validated and in many has superstitious and unproven and unprovable claims. Anytime someone says ALL minds work exactly the same way with little or no evidence I know they are not using valid science. We ain’t all the same.

              The point isn’t is hypnosis 100% valid or even does it work as Hubbard thought. It’s that he tried to use it and took hundreds of ideas from it to create Dianetics and Scientology auditing and indoctrination.

              The ideas, in combination with other things he had cult members do, produced the results the Scientologists experienced. I don’t think they were beneficial results.

              I believe that due to psychological factors that sometimes, some methods used by hypnotists work as persuasion, but not necessarily for the reasons they believe or to the degree they believe.

              It comes down to theory doesn’t have to be correct for applications to produce results. I don’t have to understand fire to use matches. I don’t have to understand mechanics to drive a car. I don’t have to understand physics to fly or even make a plane that flys.

              Similarly, a hypnotist doesn’t need to understand the mind to persuade someone. They can do something that is persuasive despite having no theory or a false theory or an error filled theory.

              That is part of the binary reaction hypnosis gets. People ignore the success it has had in persuasion and that is an error. It doesn’t have to be proven that it is a science identical to engineering or chemistry or physics to have a real place in cultic studies because cults successfully use it and Scientology in particular is based off it.

            • Mockingbird

              I realized very quickly in coming out of Scientology that much of the ideas that we use on the mind like psychological defense mechanisms, narcissism, sociopathy, projection, cognitive dissonance and many, many others are metaphors and without scientific evidence of corresponding structures and physical processes, like photosynthesis or breathing etc. they are highly subjective.

              We have ideas that are similar but not identical on such things even down to terms like thought, remember, certain and many others.

              In developing psychology the pattern of partners having disagreements and branching off exists in part because they have different underlying assumptions on things like thought, memory and imagination.

              I understand that if I read a book by Festinger or Shaw or Atack or Singer that they all have different opinions on the unobserved portion of the mind.

              That’s why I call it metaphors of the mind. Hypnosis has dealt with the observable in behavior and certain mental and physiological effects but without a lot of advancement in technology deals very much with the unobserved and hence metaphors.

              Language on narcissism deals with many, many metaphors on the narcissist living to see a beautiful reflection of himself in the world and a hall of distorted mirrors in its mind and I could go on and on. It’s a language of metaphors.

            • Mockingbird

              I think a serious and extensive study for all cults which zeroes in on Scientology in particular is needed. It has to look at the overlap between the ideas identified by Robert Cialdini’s book Influence, Lifton’s eight criteria for thought reform, Singer’s six conditions for thought reform, the BITE model by Steve Hassan, Festinger’s A Theory Of Cognitive Dissonance and classic rhetoric including ethos, logos, pathos and sublime writing as well as propaganda techniques in general.

              Hubbard’s methods borrowed from much of this or used it from hypnosis without awareness of the information psychology would later gather on them through more scientific research.

            • Mockingbird

              As an example Cialdini’s book Influence includes Theory of influence. Cialdini’s theory of influence is based on six key principles: reciprocity, commitment and consistency, social proof, authority, liking, scarcity. He later added click -whirr .

              In hypnosis the principles of consistency. Social proof, commitment, authority, scarcity and click-whirr and reciprocity ALL come into play. Did the people that developed hypnosis understand this, or understand it fully, probably not. But if there methods despite flawed and at times incorrect theories used the natural vulnerabilities to these methods then they would be caused to be effective due to them.

              It’s kind of like if an archer practices firing his bow and prays. He also tries arching his shots for more distance. He also tries shooting from horseback while riding. He also tries shooting moving targets. He also hunts animals while using his bow, both on foot and horseback. He also meditates and uses visualization and ceremonies.

              He could become a much better, even expert archer. We can say all the practice and learning different techniques is why he is a master archer capable of performing in a variety of situations.

              He could sincerely believe the prayer and ceremonies etc are part of his success. He to us is wrong.

              That’s similar to hypnosis to a degree. A hypnotist may succeed to a degree because of factors he doesn’t understand. I think it’s even more true for a cult leader as social aspects play a larger part.

              Hubbard, like the superstitious archer may have persuaded people not due to his self perceived genius but due to psychological factors he barely glimpsed small bits of. Maybe I am being too cynical, but he never fully understood what he was doing.

            • Mockingbird

              Incidentally, with Hubbard I think there’s no truth so even slight persuasion was superior to no truth.

            • Mockingbird

              Incidentally, I think the history of psychology and psychiatry is a thorough proof there is no psych conspiracy as psychs rarely agree on anything. From Freud and Jung on this has been true.

            • Those subject have also changed and advanced over the years. Scientology claims to be ‘eternal wisdom’ which cannot be improved upon – a diagnostic sign of pseudo-science.

            • Mockingbird

              I agree. An unchanging and unchange-able subject is a dead end. It denies imperfections and the chance to improve. That’s a red flag.

            • Any belief system that offers ‘ancient wisdom’ too, for the same reason,

            • Mockingbird

              Well, I suppose ancient wisdom could be useful. I have not found any to evaluate.

            • I put it in inverted commas because people who formulate fringe ideas often take the view that the older an idea is, the more true it must be – the exact opposite to the notion of progress. You get a lot of ancient master giving advice, too.

            • Mockingbird

              I must confess to having fallen for that brand of bullshit a time or twenty.

              I try to be a bit more skeptical and cautious now.

            • Mockingbird

              Also keep in mind most Scientologists never look at psychoanalysis, so what is obvious to you, and true, is only verifiable to them through Hubbard’s OWN WORDS.

    • I’ve never been able to understand what issues that the application of Scientology can resolve, nor find anything that could possibly be therapeutic in its practices. I can only conclude that perceived benefits are illusory.

      May I ask, what aspects of Hubbard’s “therapy” do you think deserve “credit”?

  • donald king

    Just watched Part 11 of the Rathbun interview. ‘Going Clear’ was published in 2013, so why has it taken him 4 years ago to decide that the book is a tissue of lies? It reminds me of an anecdotal story about the boxing promoter Bob Arum. He sat up all night with another promoter agreeing the contractual details of a fight between two of their boxers. They came to an agreement and shook hands. However, when they met the following morning, Arum insisted that the details of the deal were completely different from the night before. When the other promoter protested about Arum’s dubious business ethics, Arum said, ‘Well, last night I was lying. Today I’m telling the truth.’

  • 0tessa

    After part 11 (IRS): is Rathbun trying to prove in a pre-emptive strike that his hands are clean? He did not do any of such things …
    Could he be expecting some sort of inquiry?

  • Juicer77

    Any Bunkeroos going to be in London this weekend? Interested in a meet-up?

    • Interested – but I need more lead time to get cheap travel from Plymouth ๐Ÿ™

      • Juicer77

        Boo. This is a last-minute thing. ๐Ÿ™

  • Bert Allen

    Tony, great rebuttal to Marty’s post! I talked with most of the major players you mentioned in your rebuttal, and I did so during the relevant time frame. I can personally attest to the truth and veracity of the statements you quoted from Joe Yanny and Vicki Aznaran. Further, I personally observed both visual and audio monitoring equipment set up in a house next door to Yanny’s house. Finally, in an unrelated matter, I personally observed the effectiveness of scanner monitoring of cell phone calls back in the days before they were digital and encrypted, as well as attended training on the dangers of using cell phones and wireless phone units in your home or office. OSA, have you figured out who I am yet? Maybe you will see at Howdycon.

  • Prim

    How can anyone deny that scanners picked up portable phone conversations back in the 80’s?!! Everyone I know had a scanner that could do that, and in a small community it made for a helluva lot of fun listening into the neighbors talk about each other uncensored. We actually found out that my brother’s brother-in-law was cheating on his wife with some babe and would hide in the shed to make calls with his portable phone. The handsets transmitted on a low band frequency which had an incredible range for the power — several city blocks. Which is why they stopped making those because the bands were too crowded. It was only later that they moved phones up and added encryption, making it much more difficult to do.

    Obviously Downstat Rathbun can’t use the Google, but it’s also obvious he can’t use the Wikipedia.

    • Newton Starsky

      It was very easy to listen-in on cordless phone conversations back in the late 1980’s.
      If you lived in a densely populated area, you sometimes just had to turn on your cordless phone to hear one of your neighbor’s conversations. i.e. Their cordless happened to be at the same frequency as your phone.
      Back then, even some walkie-talkies could pick up cordless phone conversations.

      • Gus Cox

        I used to listen to cell phone conversations all the time on a Radio Shack scanner. Best time was to wait until 7pm Friday, when the lower weekend cell rates kicked in, and all kinds of characters would talk about all kinds of sordid shit lol. Very amusing and entertaining!

        You can’t do it anymore because it’s all scrambled, but you used to.

  • willloomis

    What happened to Marty? Is his behavior part of a settlement contract or did he take money for dropping his case and just decided to start doing this on his own. This is so weird. What does Mike Rinder think about what Marty is doing now?

  • Newton Starsky

    About the eavesdropping on cell phones… Back around 1992, I owned a high-end Radio Shack scanner that could pick up some cell phone calls, with no modifications to the scanner whatsoever. You could also make some slight modifications, which opened up most of the other ‘blocked’ cell phone frequencies… or at least, so I’ve been told ๐Ÿ˜‰ .
    Cell phones became a lot more secured when they changed from analog to digital

  • Gregory Kamras

    A technical thought concerning scanners and cell/household wireless phones.
    I’m a licensed radio amateur since 1991, and an unlicensed enthusiast for several years previous. When cell phones were first released for sale in the USA, they were analog phones. It took several years before the government realized that they were determined to be insecure devices. Anyone with a Radio Shack scanner that could monitor the correct frequencies could hear your call. Your wireless home phones were considered simple radios and no legislation was passed to protect them. If you wanted privacy, use a wired phone. Not so with your mobile phone. The feds outlawed scanners capable of the mobile frequencies and allowed mobiles to be encrypted. this didn’t happen till well after I was licensed. Just an FYI. I’ve seen many of your interviews and say great work, keep it up.

  • Gregory Kamras

    A quick question please, with enrollment down and parishioners being asked to dig deeper in their own pockets, as well as Miscavige’s increasingly angrier stance, do you still see a form of the Co$ in the future

  • richelieu jr

    “Instead of casting any doubt on Wrightโ€™s book, all youโ€™re doing is reminding us that YOU NEVER CAME CLEAN IN ANY OF YOUR THREE BOOKS about the operations you were involved with as Scientologyโ€™s chief enforcer.* You ran those scummy operations, Marty.”
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    THIS. 100x THIS.

    There is a lesson to take forward here folks: Actions speak louder than words. And just because you have the SAME ENEMY makes you comrades in arms, NOT FRIENDS or even FELLOW TRAVELLERS.
    The desire to lick this jerk’s feet when he never, ever said anything that did play in his favour (with the arguable exception (I was pretty convinced for a fortnight or so, I must admit) of saying Hubbard was a liar)

    Rathbun was NEVER willing to give up this info in the service of saving his fellow Scilons. He will, however use it now to try and protect the Master to his sputtering, semi-tumescent, dribbling.. pathetic.. Blaster.

    * (erm, the term is not “enforcer”, Tony. According to Marty, it was “WARRIOR”. I prefer Thug, or Toady.)