Church of Fear: When John Sweeney sat down with Anne Archer and Leah Remini

 
This week in our ‘Scientology Lit’ series, we have an excerpt from BBC reporter John Sweeney’s 2013 book, Church of Fear: Inside the Weird World of Scientology. Sweeney wrote about his experiences making two BBC documentaries about the church, 2007’s “Scientology and Me,” and 2010’s “The Secrets of Scientology.” In this chapter, he’s being handled by Scientology’s two spokesmen — Tommy Davis and Mike Rinder — as he conducts interviews for his 2007 Panorama episode at the Hollywood Celebrity Centre with his cameraman Bill and producer, ‘Mole.’ He gets forceful denials about Scientology leader David Miscavige striking his employees (which Rinder will be among those to confirm in a 2009 piece by the Tampa Bay Times.) We hope you enjoy this cracking good chapter that Sweeney was generous enough to share with us…

 
Back in the Celebrity Centre I asked a question.

‘That’s insane,’ said Tommy.

‘That is nuts,’ said Mike.

‘That is insane,’ repeated Tommy.

I tried to think of putting what Bruce Hines had told me about David Miscavige in the most diplomatic way I could think of. ‘He’s a thug,’ I said, ‘going around hitting people?’

‘OK, good,’ said Tommy. ‘You broadcast that, you’re going to suffer the consequences because it’s a gross, gross lie. And every time you come up with these lies I put you on warning and it’s on tape.’

Could I interview Mr Miscavige? I asked, expecting the answer no.

Mike started talking, a rare event: ‘John, that’s the same allegation that they made in the 1987 Panorama programme, that took those allegations and laid them all out… Everyone on them was found completely and utterly not just untrue, totally without basis. The court threw that complaint out, the…’

Which complaint?

‘The complaint that was the subject…’ Mike was interrupted.

‘From the 1987 Panorama show that you seem to be patterning this show after,’ said Tommy.

‘…it was exactly the same pattern,’ continued Mike, ‘there is a bunch of people who have these wild, outrageous, untrue allegations…’

‘They found…’ said Tommy.

‘…comes along and says well, let’s hear what you have to say…’ said Mike.

‘And it’s thrown out,’ said Tommy, ‘and found to be frivolous, after five, it was thrown out five times!’

Did the BBC apologise, I asked.

‘No,’ said Tommy, ‘even after the Internal Revenue Service investigated every single allegation made in that show they were all found to be unfounded and not true.’

I do not believe, I said, that the Internal Revenue Service of America has got any regulatory role whatsoever to do with the BBC, so that programme stood.

‘We’re not talking about regulatory role,’ said Mike.

‘We’re talking about the facts,’ said Tommy.

I get the point, I said.

‘The facts are…’ said Tommy.

So, no, the facts are… The fact was we were talking over each other.

‘Wait, wait, so the point you…’ said Tommy.

So David Miscavige is not a bully, I wondered, nonchalantly.

‘Absolutely not!’ said Tommy.

He doesn’t hit people? I asked.

‘Unequivocally not,’ said Tommy. ‘I’ve never seen him engage in any behaviour that could be remotely characterised as such, it’s a bald-faced lie!’

Are you sure? I asked.

‘One hundred percent! Without question. I have no doubt whatsoever. He’s a personal friend of mine, I’ve known him for 16 years, I’ve worked with him closely for many and most of those years as has Mike and we know him and we couldn’t even begin to conceive of anything that even remotely resemble what you’ve just described. It’s such a disgusting mischaracterisation.’

He never hit Bruce Hines?

‘Absolutely not, he’s never hit anybody. Did Bruce tell you that?’

Tommy and Mike, according to Sci’gy-Leaks, knew full well that I’d spent time with Bruce Hines but I did not know that they knew. But Bruce had been happy to talk to us in public on camera so it was not a secret so I said: yes.

‘Bruce Hines told you that?’

Yes.

‘This is the Donna Shannon syndrome,’ chipped in Mike.

Tell me about Bruce Hines. Is he a nice man? I asked.

They told me he was removed from the Church for gross dereliction of duty.

Bruce said there were a number of reasons why he left the church of his own volition, I said. One was that he had problems after falling out with Tom Cruise because it took him too long to say “your needle’s floating, Tom.”

‘He never knew Tom Cruise, he’s never met Tom Cruise,’ said Tommy.

He has met Tom Cruise, he told me, I said.

‘Oh really? Oh really? OK, good,’ said Tommy.

You don’t believe him?

‘It’s not a question of believing him,’ said Tommy. ‘He’s just lying. I know it’s not true.’

OK, I said. Bruce also said that Mr Miscavige fell out with him, Mr Miscavige came into the room and said ‘where is the motherfucker?’ and then hit him. That’s what he says.

‘You know John…’ started Mike

Is that true? I asked.

‘No,’ said Mike, ‘that’s a lie and I know that it’s a lie because I was already with Bruce Hines once before when I was on the TV show where that was brought up and similar type allegations were made and I asked Mr Miscavige. He never had that conversation, that incident, that run-in, whatever Bruce Hines claims, it never occurred. Now you think that this is very strange, this is what we are telling you John, we have seen these people for years, I have heard the most outrageous outlandish statements about myself, things I supposedly did that never happened, ever, ever happened and they will just make them up because what’s the downside for someone like that? To make statements like that. What, are they going to get sued?’

That was probably the most thorough denial of an allegation I had ever heard. We carried on like Tweedledum and Tweedledee, for a bit, trying to bash each other’s brains out, verbally I hasten to add, then Tommy introduced me to his mother.

I sat down opposite Anne Archer. Apart from having her bunny boiled in ‘Fatal Attraction’, Anne has appeared in the films ‘Patriot Games’ and ‘Clear and Present Danger’, and on TV in Little House on the Prairie, Falcon Crest and Hawaii Five-0. Outside, the Californian sun did its duty, but its light was shrouded by lace-effect drapes. She took one look at me and shuddered, a medieval martyr, about to be tormented by a witch-finder wielding a red-hot poker. Or something like that. All of the celebrity interviewees the Church presented for me to interview were, as far as we were concerned, volunteers. They did not have to talk to me but elected to do so.

Bill and Mole filmed from our side. The Church’s main cameraman was a tall, thin, German chap with a shock of white hair called Reinhardt; their number two camera woman was an exotic woman – Argentinian? – and I think they had a third plus a soundman, who looked Spanish or South American. They wore black and said next to nothing. Tommy and Mike settled down to watch from the sidelines, like line call umpires at Wimbledon or vultures waiting for a free carcass.

Anne told me she’d been a Scientologist for 30 years, and that it had helped her become a more able, sane, more responsible person with a very high sense of ethics, and that no-one she has been around with has ever been critical of Scientology, especially in Hollywood.

I took a deep breath. Some people say that Scientology is a sinister brainwashing cult.

Anne had no truck with that. It is, she said, a very intelligent, wonderful, highly ethical organisation, and the people in it have had wonderful success and wins in their life from utilising the Scientology technology. And then she went on to the attack: ‘The thing I don’t understand is why you are not talking to people who have benefited from it and why you are not giving a fair point of view to the other side.’

This was more than a little ironic. Four or was it five cameras – and who knows there might have been some hidden somewhere – were recording me doing exactly what she was complaining I was not doing.

She told me I was ‘extremely bigoted’ and not balanced as reporters are supposed to be. I told her that I had spoken to people who said that Scientology had ruined their lives, like Mike Henderson, and she told me that man had a criminal record. No, that was Shawn Lonsdale, I told her. She questioned why I talked to criminals, and I said Shawn’s record was for sexual misdemeanours but the Church, he said, attacked and intimidated him and reacted out of all proportion. I didn’t twig to the fact that she knew I had been spending time with a criminal.

‘It is not out of all proportion. First of all, it doesn’t happen,’ Anne said, nonsensically. ‘There aren’t that many critics, and I have never come across those people in my life, it has never been my experience and you are putting on the air these very few who have whatever they have going on in their lives. Who are discreditable people and you are putting them on as credible people, and that to me is very offensive.’

I told her about Mike Henderson, who says that Scientology breaks up families.

‘Scientology brings families together. Scientology, using L Ron Hubbard’s technology, understanding, how to make relationships better, has without question saved more marriages, made more marriages happier, than any other technology or approach that I have ever seen in life. Otherwise I wouldn’t be a Scientologist.’

Black and white; light and shade. There was no meeting of minds between us, whatsoever.

Had she ever been on a RPF course?

‘An RPF course? No…’

Tommy interrupted: ‘That’s for Sea Org members.’

‘No, I am public,’ she said. The distinction is that ‘public’ means parishioner, Sea Org means a member of the Church’s Holy Order, like a nun or a monk.

I put to her that the RPF is a dungeon of the mind.

‘You know what? You are talking to the wrong person.’

Point to her. It was odd, though, that she had never heard of the complaints of ex-Scientologists: ‘No. No. No… You have completely the wrong understanding of what Scientology is. Scientologists come and do courses, get auditing services because they are trying to grow as human beings. And the individuals that work within the organisation are the most ethical, fair, understanding and loving group of individuals I have ever met in my life. Who really care about helping people and not tearing them down, that has been my experience.’

I asked her about ‘ripping your face off.’

‘You are making me laugh. You know you so obviously have this bigoted point of view towards something, you are trying to drag that point home. And it is not reality. This is not truth for me.’

She had never heard of that phrase?

‘No. Absolutely never heard of that phrase. It is ridiculous.’

No one has ever ripped her face off?

‘Are you kidding me?’

You could have cut the atmosphere with a blunt implement.

I put to her stories of abuse and psychological torture. She denied it absolutely: ‘There is certainly no mental torture, there is certainly no abuse, there’s certainly nothing like that that exists in Scientology, believe me.’

I told her that we have spoken to somebody who said they had seen Tommy on one of these course being punished, humiliated, having his hair and his ear pulled about…

‘I guarantee you that would never happen. And I happen to be back in Florida the time Tommy was there and we had many wonderful, lovely conversations and it is just not true.’

Some people say that David Miscavige is a bully, he goes round hitting people?

She laughed out loud.

Just for the record, is David Miscavige a bully? Does he go around hitting people?

‘Of course not. He is a very intelligent and fair and kind, he is one of the kindest people I have ever met.’

Our relationship was not getting any better. ‘You are a bigot,’ she said.

Some people would say that she is brainwashed.

‘Do I look brainwashed to you?’

I looked up to the heavens, but said nothing.

‘How dare you!’ she hissed. ‘You know what? You are brainwashed.’

Is there any criticism that you would fairly level at your own organisation of the Church of Scientology?

‘None whatsoever… You won’t put that on the air.’

She was right about that, but for a different reason.

The verbal ping-pong carried on. She called me a bottom feeder, a tabloid reporter. More ping-pong or as Boris Johnson dubs it, wiff-waff.

‘You obviously have an agenda here and this whole interview is kind of a waste of time.’

Indeed, why are you talking to us?

‘Because you attacked my son.’

I didn’t attack your son.

‘Oh yes you have,’ Anne said.

‘Oh no I haven’t,’ I replied. ‘Are you familiar with pantomime?’

And that pretty much was that.

Anne left, her place replaced with a strikingly attractive woman, I guess, in her early thirties. She sat down in front of me with an air of the lioness entering the den, the better to eat up the Christian. I liked her, or at least wanted her to like me. Bill attached the radio-mike to her, which always seems to involve asking people to slip this thingy through their undergarments. He was particularly charming with all the Scientologists, and all the Scientologists were charming back to him. I was beginning to suspect he was working for the other side, Traitor Bill.

My lack of charm did not help me resolve my immediate problem, which was embarrassing.

You have got to forgive me, I said, I am not a Hollywood reporter. I have been to all sorts of weird places but I don’t know who you are. In LA there is no greater sin.

‘Oh really?’ She was actually quite sweet about it. ‘My name is Leah Remini and I am on a show called The King of Queens.’ One of the biggest American sitcoms of recent times, the show often rated around 13 million viewers. The wreckage of our small talk out of the way, it was time for business. She told me that Scientology had offered her the ability to be a happy person, Scientology has given her those tools to try to be a good person.

I asked her about the auditing process, questions about all sorts of things, including your sex life, things that are embarrassing?

‘It is confidential.’

But they record it, I said.

‘Do they record it? No.’

 
Three years later we asked that very question of the Church. It said it does film auditing, but that this is not a secret and has been announced publicly. Cameras are fitted within walls to stop them being intrusive and unsightly.

The Church also says that auditing secrets are sacrosanct, protected by priest-penitent confidentiality and never revealed.

I told Leah I have heard the allegation that David Miscavige has used some of the stuff which had been said in confidence. In Catholic terms, that would be a violation of the sanctity of the confessional?

‘I mean that is so, so ridiculous because if that were true there would be a lot of lawsuits. There is nothing about me or about any Scientologist that I know has anything in their past that someone could use against them.’

There are stories out there, people say that they have been punished, in particular, on the Sea Org RPF. Have you ever heard that?

‘Aha.’

What is RPF?

‘I think Tommy has already explained that to you, right.’

Leah’s interview took place immediately after Anne’s. My deduction would be that Leah could have only known that Tommy had given me an answer on RPF if she had been watching a live feed of the interview in another room in the Celebrity Centre. I didn’t work that out there and then, but just had a sense of an extra level to the game they hadn’t told me about.

I pressed on. Are you aware of any criticisms that it punishes people?

‘No, I haven’t heard the criticism.’

We spoke to one guy who said that he has effectively spent six years in the RPF.

‘I have to tell you that he has to be a complete idiot because the programme doesn’t take six years.’

No, he was punished for six years.

‘Well then, I think he is a complete idiot. Six years is a long time to try to get with it.’

Because he fell out with David Miscavige.

‘Well, thank God. Six years is a long time. I’m glad we got rid of him.’

Have you met Mr Miscavige?

‘Of course.’

Some people have said that he has hit them.

‘That he has hit them?’

Yeah, physically.

She laughed: ‘I don’t know what to say about that, I mean it is so silly. That David physically hit them?’

Yeah.

‘OK. I don’t know what to say about that. He never hit me. Should I consider myself insulted? I mean, I’m a friend of his and he’s never hit me.’

I batted on.

He hasn’t given a TV interview since 1992. What is he afraid of?

‘What’s he afraid of ? Oh I think if you met Mr Miscavige you would see that he is really not afraid of anything. But I just think it is…’

Well, I said, he appears to be, because he is afraid of for example giving a TV interview.

‘No, I don’t think he is afraid.’

Some people would say that Scientology has got an unfortunate image.

‘What?’

People out there, for example, on the Internet.

‘I don’t go on the Internet.’

As Bruce Hines had explained to me, the Church has an aversion to the Internet, this, the single greatest expansion of human knowledge in modern times, and, if you watched the opening of the Olympics, invented by a Briton, for free.

Why not?

‘But I just don’t go to the Internet for my source of information. I don’t search the Internet for any information on anything. This is a building you can walk in and you can see what Scientology is.’

Are there any downsides to Scientology?

‘What?’

Apart from being interviewed by me.

‘You seem quite pleasant.’ She must have been kidding.

‘Downsides, yeah? It’s not easy to be a Scientologist because the ethic level of this group is very, very high.’ She made no criticism of the institution. Being an Operating Thetan Level Five, the ex-Scis say she would know about the ‘Wall of Fire.’

You know about Xenu?

‘I don’t know… I have been in it for 25 years and I have no idea what you are talking about.’

So OT3, I heard, was Xenu, was the galactic warlord who 75 million years ago, sort of, put peoples, aliens…?

‘I have already answered this,’ interrupted Tommy. ‘None of us know what you are talking about. It makes you look weird talking about it.’

Time froze. Donna Shannon and Bruce Hines had confirmed Xenu to be true.

So either Donna and Bruce and the Panorama 1987 team and everybody on the Internet were mad, or the Church of Scientology, its representatives, Tommy and Mike, and this feisty, funny and beautiful actress sitting a few feet from me, were mad. This made my head hurt. Tommy had a simple solution to my dilemma.

‘I think what the problem is,’ said Tommy, helpfully, ‘you must have talked to some lunatic… I mean I am not calling you a lunatic…’

I appreciate the distinction, I said. So it is wholly untrue, Xenu? 75 million years ago?

‘Sweetheart,’ said Leah, ‘you are talking to me and it is like you are talking another language to me. It is, like, I have no idea of what you are talking about.’

I have spoken to a number of ex-Scientologists who have said yes, the Xenu story is part of the religion, I said.

‘OK, so therein lies the problems. You are talking to ex-Scientologists and I don’t know how much, I mean you are talking to crazy people, I mean I don’t know. If that is what they told you then I go…’

‘Yeah,’ said Tommy. ‘I mean here is the thing John, you are insisting on levelling to Scientologists things that you’ve heard, things that you find on the Internet. We are the ones who are the Scientologists. We know what Scientology is. And what you are talking about plays no part in Scientology. It is just utterly bizarre. It is just bizarre.’

Is it possible you might be brainwashed, I asked Leah.

‘What do you think?’

Oh, I ask the questions, I said.

‘I know but you are sitting here looking at me. I mean what do you think?’

I don’t know, I said.

‘So I really couldn’t really answer that question. “Are you brainwashed?” I could ask you the same thing.’

Of course she could. In 2012 I now realise that as an Operating Thetan Level Five she would have been taught that I have been brainwashed by Xenu into thinking that he doesn’t exist. This is, then, a conversation between two people, one of whom suspects the other might be brainwashed; the other who knows the other has been brainwashed. The one who suspects doesn’t know that the other who knows can’t tell the first one he’s been brainwashed because if she does he may die. Simples.

I don’t think I am brainwashed, I said, weakly. I went on to say that was because my mind is open to stuff, for example, I read the Internet, blah blah.

‘It is not that I am not open to criticism,’ she said. ‘It is that there is so much crap in the world, why would I want to open myself up to being in a bad mood or why would I want to open myself up to reading nasty stuff about something that has helped me? We are not hurting anybody, we are doing just the opposite. We are helping people.’

Some people say that is not true.

‘Well, that is bullshit, Baby-doll,’ – I do wish she hadn’t called me that.

She spoke about the success of Narconon, Scientology’s drug treatment programme questioned by the doctors in San Francisco, and defended the Church to the utmost: ‘We really don’t give a crap. We know that we are helping people. Do you understand what I am saying to you? You don’t have to say it is a brainwashing cult. Is there any other religion that would put up with this kind of talk? This kind of bigotry.’

I queried the number of Scientologists the Church claims, worldwide: 10 million people. I’ve looked through the windows of more Church of Scientology buildings than anyone else I know, and they always seem empty: a few souls, workers, hanging around the entrance. But no flood of people, coming to and fro.

‘OK, there isn’t 10 million in the building.’

I still looked sceptical.

‘Oh, you caught us, you know, it’s nine [million].’

She was playing with me. We batted on for a bit. One last question, I said.

‘OK, make it good. You haven’t even got me riled up yet.’

I am not here to rile people up.

‘I thought you were a little spicier,’ she was taunting me.

I am very tame, I said. What is your view of L Ron Hubbard?

‘As a man who cares. A man who cared about mankind. He has given me a gift.’

We carried on some more. I mentioned the c-word and she cut in, gently: ‘Stop calling it a cult, it is just not nice. It is disrespectful you know.’

But they say it is, I said.

‘I hear what you are saying. But as a journalist and as an Englishman I think it would do you better to stop using that word. It is just disrespectful. I would never say it to somebody. I would just hope that we as human beings would respect each other’s beliefs. And it is just not something to say over and over again and it just pushes someone’s buttons and that is really not the purpose of doing an interview.’

It is a criticism that the Church of Scientology does not want made, I said. It is a word you don’t want the word used.

‘Baby, it is not that. It is just about respect. You can call it whatever the hell you want. I personally don’t give a shit. But what I am saying is it is about a respect. I would never say that to another person.’

Leah Remini was the most subtle defender of the Church of Scientology I met.

 
— John Sweeney

 
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Another ‘Writers of the Future’ winner sees the light

Back in 2012, we drew a direct line between the shocking abuse of ‘The Hole’ — Scientology’s prison for its top executives — and its ‘Writers of the Future’ contest, its annual and prestigious celebration of emerging science fiction writers and illustrators.

We showed that a Scientology executive named Barbara Ruiz had, in the same year, helped run the torture house of the Hole and the writers’ gala, and then she had been disappeared by Scientology leader David Miscavige and has never been seen again.

In that story, we talked to former contest winners who admitted that they were uncomfortable that Scientology clearly uses the contest to promote itself, and that it operates in a completely different way from any other writing contest or publishing anthology.

Every year, however, we notice that writers seem to discover for the first time that there might be, maybe, a bit of an uncomfortable fact or two about the contest. It surprises us that they rarely cite our story about The Hole, but what can you do.

Anyway, there’s a fascinating new account by a contest winner who spent a bizarre weekend at Scientology’s spiritual mecca, the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Florida. It’s a great story by author J.W. Alden, who won the contest in 2016 but has now decided that Scientology’s involvement is too troubling. “I do not support the Writers of the Future contest, and I cannot recommend it to emerging writers,” he concludes after his weird trip to Clearwater.

We hope more of the contest participants pay attention to his dispatch from Flag, and it might be a good idea for some of them to check out our Voice piece. Just sayin’.

 
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More from Peter Nyiri

 
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MEANWHILE, AT FACEBOOK…

 
Please join us at the Underground Bunker’s Facebook discussion group for more frivolity.

 
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Posted by Tony Ortega on August 11, 2018 at 07:00

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Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

The Best of the Underground Bunker, 1995-2017 Just starting out here? We’ve picked out the most important stories we’ve covered here at the Undergound Bunker (2012-2017), The Village Voice (2008-2012), New Times Los Angeles (1999-2002) and the Phoenix New Times (1995-1999)

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our non-Scientology stories: Robert Burnham Jr., the man who inscribed the universe | Notorious alt-right inspiration Kevin MacDonald and his theories about Jewish DNA | The selling of the “Phoenix Lights” | Astronomer Harlow Shapley‘s FBI file | Sex, spies, and local TV news