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The way to break free from Scientology’s mind trap: Admit to yourself that you’re gullible

jon_atack4Jon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than three years he’s been helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

It took me a while to decompress from Scientology. After all, in nine years, I had never doubted. I wasn’t too scared to look under the cover of a hostile book: I read The Mind Benders and Cults of Unreason, heck, I even skimmed Roy Wallis’s sociological examination of the subject – The Road to Total Freedom – but I was not impressed.

I used traditional methods of skepticism throughout. For instance, Evans claimed that Hubbard had become disinterested in Scientology during his time in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). It was easy to disprove this assertion, all I had to do was look at my next door neighbour’s brand new (and vastly overpriced) Technical Volumes and into the OEC Policy Volumes to find that Hubbard had churned out issues at his usual hypergraphic pace.

So, I wasn’t easily persuaded. This is why the reference notes to my books and papers are painfully extensive. You don’t have to believe me. I can show you where Hubbard contradicted himself, and where he explained exactly what his counter and other intentions towards us were. If you dare to look, that is. Bear in mind that critics say that ‘cults’ deliberately induce phobia and control information.

I read the documents collected by the remarkable Michael Linn Shannon – some of which may have come from James Phelan’s collection (bless them both – they suffered for their courage, I’m sure). Here were college records showing that Hubbard had been suspended for poor scholarship and failed a minor course in “atomic and molecular physics.” I didn’t know then that this account of the “nuclear physicist” was confirmed in every detail by Hubbard’s own account in the lecture “Introducing Dianetics” on 23 September 1950: “The people were very much impressed with atomic and molecular phenomena. And I took the course and of course flunked it.”

I was alarmed to find that I had been following a pathological liar. A man who told us that the “road to truth” must be trod with “true steps” and that “honesty is sanity.”

This was enough to dislodge my unquestioning belief, but it took months to abandon the TR-0 stare (and the bizarre limitations that it puts upon perception – it is much better to scan the environment than to induce endless ganzfeld trips).

The whole way of thinking imposed upon me by Scientology (at my own expense!) had to be deconstructed. How much easier to simply keep believing! But once you start picking at the fabric of Scientology, you realize that the dear Emperor (or Commodore) had not a stitch on his portly torso. Scientology is the most elaborate confidence trick ever devised by human mind, that is, if Hubbard was indeed human: I suspect he was a Marcabian, or possibly even Xenu the Magnificent himself (“the criminal accuses others of things he himself is doing,” as The Ronald put it).

Soon after I left, I started to meet a slew of people who had worked with Hubbard. Most were very protective of the man who was still their hero. Harvey Haber told me of his first encounter with the Founder: Hubbard screamed profanities at him. Harvey seemed to bask in the memory as he told me, but I was horrified to think that the man I’d revered for so long had a foul temper (yes, I know he was trying to bring the Sea Org “up-tone” from the fear he had drenched them with). My own ideal human is more Buddha than drill sergeant.

Captain Bill Robertson, who really did have captain’s papers (his Sea Org rank was Second Deputy Commodore), confided that he had twice seen Hubbard do something that would make anyone leave Scientology in a heartbeat. You can imagine how hard I pressed him for the details, during the six months he spent trying to persuade me back into the fold.

Along the way, I spoke with tens of people who had spent time close to Hubbard, and they told me consistent stories. Some still loved the man, and believed in his purported Technology of the mind and spirit; some no longer loved the man, but believed in his Technology; yet, others, including John McMaster and John Sanborn – who oversaw all publications from 1954-1978 – had no single good word to say about Hubbard, though McMaster still practiced a version of the Technology.

I did not abandon Scientology as part of any government plot. No one sinister has ever funded my work (no, I didn’t even work for Eli Lilly or Hill and Knowlton, though I spoke to each a single time). I wasn’t dragged into the basement at the Blue Buildings and shocked with cattle prods, like Frank Notaro (the bruises were like tennis balls – I saw them).

No one “snapped” me either in or out of Scientology. Nor did anyone “deprogram” me. I spent years thinking my way around the vast Scientology maze, and checking the ideas against each other. Most of my statements about Hubbard’s past are confirmed by his own, because nearer to the event he was usually more truthful: so the claim in the 1960s to have been a “blood brother” of the Blackfoot Pikuni conflicts with the dustsheet of his first (1934) novel, Buckskin Brigades, where he says he took the story (about the Blackfoot Pikuni) from someone who had actually spent time with them.

I thought my way through Scientology. I haven’t found the way, the truth, or the life, and have nothing to sell, other than a few books (all rather cheaper than any Scientology book), but it still exasperates me to think that there are people out there who cannot or will not think, but instead choose to be dependent on someone who offers to sell them “self-determinism” – just as long as they followed the “white-taped path” exactly as instructed. It took me years to bring those two ideas together, and therein lies the problem: Hubbard constructed a self-referential system which allow no comparison between its parts. Once you can make comparisons and accept the contradictions without offering a flood of justifications first, then the enchantment is broken.

Thirty years ago, a former Commodore’s Messenger told me that the great thing was that we would never be tricked again. I told him that the great thing is that I know I’m gullible – and that makes me more cautious. It is hard to admit that I was completely taken in, but I’ve come to believe that Scientology and Dianetics are nothing more than an elaborate scam, purposefully designed to ameliorate Ronald Hubbard’s desperate self-loathing. If we can learn from that, we can help others to be more skeptical, more considerate and, perhaps, rein in that pride which always leads eventually to a fall.

 
— Jon Atack

 
——————–

Talking Scientology with Jillian Barberie

We always enjoy our visits to KABC 790 with Jillian Barberie in Los Angeles. And earlier this week, we had another fun time.

 

 
——————–

HowdyCon2017

Go here to start making your plans.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on December 10, 2016 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Amended.

    • Tony Ortega

      Fixed. Thank you.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Well done on Crow-ley.
        (Damn Mark!)

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    “..shocked with cattle prods, like Frank Notaro (the bruises were like tennis balls – I saw them).”

    What?!

    The uncovered truth of Ron’s non-contact with the Blackfoot Pikuni on a dust jacket is at once pedestrian and hilarious. Thanks, Jon 🙂

    Cattle prods used on a Scientologist. In a basement. Again, what?

    • LongtimeLurker

      See…I thought WHAT?!

      But I didn’t say anything, because I thought “Oh, this must be well known, I don’t want to embarrass myself.”

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Ahh, I do remember.

        ” A year or so later, Frank Notaro was dragged into the basement at the Blue Buildings and repeatedly attacked with cattle prods, for parading in his ping-pong ball adorned “body thetan” suit…”

        http://tonyortega.org/2014/10/04/jon-atack-how-to-talk-to-a-scientologist-to-plant-the-seed-of-doubt/

        Another time poor Mr Notaro was assaulted, apparently.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mfY0kycmxA

        • FredEX2

          Oh my god in heaven and earth. No words.

        • LongtimeLurker

          Oh great Andrea, thanks for hanging me out to dry!

          Also, “Scifags” is not okay. But I still laughed.

          • gtsix

            Anons are like children too often. Hence all the “fag” usages. Spoiled lille boys annoyed me far too often.

            • LongtimeLurker

              I have a definite problem with many anons.
              And channers.
              And Redditors.

              …wait…maybe I’m the probl…

              Nope.

    • chukicita

      It kills me that this story persists although the Blackfoot people have never had a blood brother ritual or concept. That is a Hollywood construct.

      So even though Hubbard claims earlier to have heard the story from someone else, he lived near enough to the Blackfoot people to be able to ask them about it himself, and he never bothered to.

      Every time I hear that story about Hubbard, I think of a Blackfoot story about Napi, the trickster. A herd of elk are playing follow-the-leader. Napi joins the game and when it’s his turn, he does a flip. The elk follow suit, thinking it’s great fun. “Now try it blindfolded” says Napi, edging toward a cliff as he speaks. The elk put on blindfolds and jump, but they are too near the edge. Napi climbs down to collect all the tasty elk meat.

  • DexterSka

    Dianetics, not even once.

  • LongtimeLurker

    ATTACK!

    “…it still exasperates me to think that there are people out there who
    cannot or will not think, but instead choose to be dependent on someone…”

    Yep. IMHO…

    The first step to making things better is knowing what’s making things worse.

    The first step to knowing that can often be considering what one’s own contribution to the situation might be; whether it’s why you have given over control of your life to a religious organization or why you yelled at that waitron when the real problem is you hate your job.

    “The unexamined life is not worth living.” – Socrates at his trial for impiety and corrupting youth.

    I’ve been told I quote that dictum too much. I should examine that.

  • BosonStark

    People believe what they want to be true, and want to believe. Example: Pizzagate. It doesn’t matter if it is absurd, and not true. It’s what they want to believe which is most important.

    Scientology promises improvement — they’re here to help — or unlimited potential. People like hearing that their potential is unlimited, and that they can get secret superpowerz. They are happy there is a way to happiness and that Scientologists are here to help. Just when you’re feeling low, and you think there are no good answers, someone comes along with all the answers. It’s a once-in-four-quadrillion-years kind of thing.

    This same mentality is at play in people now, a few who are former Scientologists on ESMB, who think Trump is a “genius.” He’s a genius in business, and will run government like a business, only he is going to get millions of people good jobs. It will be like he makes the country and everyone in it rich, too. He did it for himself, and now he knows how to do it for the country, because running the country is about making deals, and no one knows how to do this better than L. Don Trumppard. How is he going to do it? It’s coming at the next level.

    Trump followers want to believe what Trump says, because they love how he tells it like it is, and they believe in his abilities. This is exactly how followers thought of Hubbard also. A few Trump followers have said they don’t care if Trump doesn’t follow through with anything he says, because he is the first person who has said things they wanted to hear. They want to hear that jobs are coming back and the US is going to be great again, and that he knows how to do it. They don’t want to hear the word “automation” or “computerization, AI or robots,” or even think about that. It’s the immigrants! It’s the EPA! Trump knows this. It’s white men losing their power to the cucks, the minorities and the gays with their special rights, and women wanting to think they’re equal to men. Things are going to be fantastic, great, huge. The planet will be clear.

    • Tracy Schmitz

      spot on boson stark!…

    • Missionary Kid

      AMEN!

      Trump has written his own biography, just like Hubbard, and damn the truth.

      • BosonStark

        For Trump’s followers, the truth has become too politically correct. Lies are in. They create a vision for a great future. The truth is depressing, complex, rarely “ideal,” and people don’t even want to think about it. Instead, they’re going to think best case scenario — a new prosperity. Same corporate masters we’ve had for decades, it appears, but under Trump the corporate masters will distribute their wealth to employees…is that what Trump is going to make them do?

        I don’t know if we’re even going to get a chance to see if Scientology collides with Trump, or rides the wave of his new presidency. Everyone will be too busy swimming for shore, probably in an oil slick.

        • Missionary Kid

          Like Trump, other “corporate masters” are going to keep as much as possible for themselves.

          • BosonStark

            Then why is it Sarah Palin, of all people, can see this and no other Republican? Her status went up about a mile with me.

            • Missionary Kid

              I wouldn’t give Sarah that much credit. She was probably parroting something else she just heard, IMO.

            • Bobby Tolberto AKA TDA

              She recognizes him as a successful grifter, IMHO. Look at how Bristol
              got over 250K$/year for advocating abstinence from sex before marriage until her own hypocrisy became a matter of public knowledge.

              5 will get you 10 that Sarah likes to drink a bit much. Don’t know if you’re familiar with Stephen Sondheim outside of “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum” This is from The Ladies Who Lunch, from “Company”

              And here’s to the girls who just watch–
              Aren’t they the best?
              When they get depressed,
              It’s a bottle of Scotch,
              Plus a little jest.
              Another chance to disapprove,
              Another brilliant zinger,
              Another reason not to move,
              Another vodka stinger.
              Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!
              I’ll drink to that.

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Jillian Barberie and KABC 790 love the Bunker as much as we do! Coffee-break time for me. It’s interesting (and telling) that some indies point to the fact that Tony hasn’t received auditing to claim he can never truly understand or appreciate Scientology. It’s the one thing they have. I think they would prefer for there to be a watered-down version of Tony. Tony-lite, if you will. I think they want the journalist who exposes their anti-Christ, David Miscavige, but they don’t want the reporter who uncovers glaring out points (ha!) in Hubbard or the vaunted tech. It’s probably why they’re not beating down Jon Atack’s door to take him for a beer, either.

    • chukicita

      I don’t have to try heroin to know that it’s bad for me.

      • LongtimeLurker

        I drove all this way for nothing?!?

        • What’sup

          Literally rofl’d

      • Tracy Schmitz

        you don’t have to taste the donut to know it’s sweet! ( per the nun teaching sex education in the movie sister act! lol!)….

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        A wise man learns from his mistakes. A smart man learns from other people’s mistakes.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Me as half-fast, learn from both, smile!

        • gtsix

          Can you tattoo that on my forehead backwards. That’s excellent.

    • Tony Ortega

      I will admit that I was confused by her question. Usually, if someone asks me if I’ve tried the e-meter, they say, “Have you been through auditing?” or “Have you experienced auditing?” something like that.

      Instead, she asked “Tony, have you been audited?” And for some reason, because she asked it that way, I immediately was completely convinced that she was asking me if OSA had convinced the IRS to audit my taxes — which they have done to people!

      No, I answered confidently.

      It was only when I heard it back that I realized that I’d answered the wrong question. Of course, the response would have been the same if I’d realized what she actually asked me.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        That’s priceless!

      • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

        Goes to show how out of touch with the real world for them to ask such a question.

      • Noesis

        That was your XENU Marcabian implants kicking in…DC8’s…tax audits…that sort of thing.

        Clearly (lol) the ruin above confirms your need to complete OT III.

      • iampissed

        Both audits do not bode well.

        • mikecrosby

          I’ll take the IRS one any day. With the IRS I get a chance to prove my point.

      • I did have some auditing, and although I regret nothing, I would most definitely never, ever do it again. Why not? Because it is a huge waste of time. And money. And does nothing.

      • touretzky

        Never been audited? We can easily fix that, Tony.

        “Pull my finger.”

        “Thank you.”

        That’s the Babe Ruth rundown. Are you enlightened now? Please go to Qual to attest.

    • I am so glad to hear that coming from you! Cheers – more coffee!

    • LongtimeLurker

      A butt load of Marty’s comment-zombies (psssst – screw you Marty & I hope you step barefoot on Lego, The Oracle) constantly raged against Tony for reporting without ever having been audited.

      Some even said he shouldn’t do it unless he’d actually been a full-blown Scientologist.

      WTFW?

      I wrote a sarcastic rage-screed using exaggerated examples of other journalists in history who reported on things they hadn’t experienced.

      I never posted it.

      Stupid bastards. It’s like saying you can’t write about boxing unless you get the crap beaten out of you once a week.

      God, I’m enraged again just thinking about it.

      • Frodis73

        You should have posted it…those folks need all the help they can get…and good info like that to think about.

        • LongtimeLurker

          I regret it.

          Amazingly blinkered thinking.

          Also arguably incredibly egotistical. “This thing of ours is so special, you can’t talk about it unless you know it as well as one of us.”

          pffft

          • Missionary Kid

            Sometimes, when I write something like that and decide not to post it, I turn it into a document and save it. Later, I can revisit it, and make it better and use it in a different situation. I hope you do that.

            • LongtimeLurker

              I wish you could see my document folder(s). ; )

              Yes, I do. No idea how I’ll ever use that piece, but you never know, right?

            • Missionary Kid

              If nothing else, it provides a signpost when you look back of how you felt at a particular time.

      • Tracy Schmitz

        it’s simplistic bizarre=ness!… what’s next? well i wasn’t around when lincoln was shot, so how do we know boothe was a bad guy? i wasn’t around when the dinosaurs were, so how do we know these scientists who research dinosaurs are right or know more then you and I?…can you imagine a world that ONLY if you experienced something, or someone, or a event ONLY then can you be a expert or knowledgeable about it? never mind something called research, investigating and on and on? this is kind of thinking is right up there with the lazy simplistic thinking of “all religions are bad, because they are all made up, therefore they are equal”…

        • LongtimeLurker

          Yes, yes and yes!

      • April Moonlight

        rathbuns new post is really sad. he somehow equates someone who has had difficulties that we feel empathy for such as leah remini, mike rinder, etc. into being sociopaths, by taking a paragraph of a book out of context. its such a sad post and makes me wonder if he’s doing this one-man war against other ex-sci’s on his own, or if he’s being coerced. anyway, it makes him seem petty and mean and immature, and its sad.

        • Noesis

          It is hard to pin down Marty’s exact motives for his recent posting of that which is almost entirely someone else’s text (excerpts from The Sociopath Next Door.) One can deduce (correctly or incorrectly) all sorts of reasons why Marty might do such a thing.

          I would suggest that his primary purpose is to deliberately create confusion around the subject of Scientology and it’s critics…in advance of the March 2017 U.S. release of the Louis Theroux “My Scientology Movie.”

          It is likely that between now and March 2017 Marty will make quite a few posts (like the most recent) that sow confusion among folks with only a casual interest in Scientology. Marty already knows that he (and the church) do not come off well in that movie (based on screenings in non-US areas.)

          Once that movie reaches its largest target audience in the US, what is left of Marty’s reputation as an objective observer of Scientology will be be dramatically lessened, as will his “usefulness” to others in dead agenting Scientology critics.

          The recent post appears to be another installment of Marty’s continuous double curve propaganda messaging ever since the “Monique” lawsuit was “dropped.”

          One can deduce “why” he might do such a thing – but it is harder to conceive of the lack of conscience such maneuvering might demonstrate.

          Maybe he wants pity?

          Lol.

          How’s that for a double curve?

          http://tonyortega.org/2016/12/01/leah-remini-scientologys-new-attack-has-a-katie-holmes-angle-they-arent-talking-about/#comment-3029755064

          • Chee Chalker

            Louis needs to strike while the iron is hot and release that movie in time for Christmas! (Not that I am selfishly thinking of myself or anything…..)

        • LongtimeLurker

          I don’t know which would be worse, him being made to do it, or him being so far removed from reality that he thinks he’s right and has good points to make.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        It’s just another great example of one of the many logical fallacies that $cilons engage in, trying their lamest to discredit and deflect valid criticism and evidence-based arguments against the cult and its criminal and abusive policies and practices.

        Almost no one here is making the argument that $cilons should be denied the right to believe in Xenu and exorcise imaginary space alien spirits to their heart’s content; it’s only when the cult commits crimes, destroys families and engages in Fair Game tactics that we object to its actions, rather than its beliefs.

        • LongtimeLurker

          Right.

          It’s the behavior, not the beliefs.™

    • Missionary Kid

      I worked in the field of alcoholism for a while (not as a therapist). There was (and is) a subset of the recovering alcoholic community that believes that only a recovering alcoholic can truly help an alcoholic on their road to sobriety.

      While the average person off the street (and even a doctor) often makes the mistake of enabling alcoholic behavior, a person who has studied the problems of alcohol abuse as well as psychology often spots underlying causes and thus is able to devise better, more comprehensive treatment than someone whose viewpoint only comes from personal experience.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        What can make recovering alcoholics/drug addicts who are also trained drug/alcohol counselors especially effective in their work is the instant rapport that they have with clients, who identify with them as “just like me,” and therefore represent a concrete basis for hope in their own recovery process. The same goes with combat veterans who often feel that no one who has not experienced the same trauma as war could possibly identify with what they’ve gone through.

        One of the primary reasons that the bogus Narconon treatment model very often fails is because it uses newly sober, Narconon treatment grads who have little or no education or training in the field in the place of professionals. Just being an ex-addict or ex-alcoholic doesn’t qualify you to treat others, especially if your own sobriety is of short duration.

        • Missionary Kid

          Good points.

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      There is always some reason why people like you, I and Tony will be wrong. If we fix that reason there will be another and on and on indefinitely.

    • Observer

      That hackneyed old question is ridiculous. How do they know psychiatrists are the devil if they’ve never had psychiatric care? How do they know psych drugs are ebil if they’ve never used them? How do they know weed is Satan’s Sassafrass if they’ve never smoked it? EDIT: If they know all that without experiencing it, it shouldn’t be that difficult for them to accept that people who have never had auditing can tell it’s hogwash simply by looking at the end result. Shouldn’t, but of course is.

      I’m going to have to back off the Scientology watching for a bit, I guess. I’m still bruised from yesterday.

  • FredEX2

    Jon, you are a virtual encyclopedia of fascinating info & facts. Your advice that we should admit to being gullible…and to become more skeptical is just the right food for thought today. There’s been so many painful stories coming out since Leah’s series exposing the truths of this cult are being revealed. So much that breaks our hearts.

    Thanks as always for the words of simple…yet brilliant…wisdom and clarity.

    BTW, what is this about a cattle prod?!!! They were torturing Frank Notaro in a basement?!!! OMG.

    • grundoon

      Frank Notaro Picket report, from The Free Spirit, January 1986 issue, page 30 (the indicated photos are poor quality)

      Saturday, 5 Oct. 95: I went down to AOLA to ask for a refund of $2,000 for a level which has been hanging fire for almost 10 years with much associated pain. My request was in writing. A security guard told me to get out or I would be arrested. I said OK, but then I will have to picket.

      Sunday, 6 Oct.: at 1 P.M. I picketed by myself in front of ASHO, LA Org, and AOLA with three signs which had “confidential” OT 3 materials on them. A CofS security guard came from the front and grabbed my signs, while three or four others jumped me from behind and threw me to the pavement in the middle of the street, where they pinned me down and handcuffed me from behind. They then took me inside the building across from AOLA. On the way, I managed to shout to a friend to call the police, as I was afraid. I was held captive for an hour or so until the police came and released me. The Police Officers told the church officials that I had every right to picket and escorted me to safety out of the area.

      Thursday 17 Oct 85: Here’s my motorcycle [indicating photo on next page] as I get ready to picket in front of downtown LA Courthouse. Later, I was chased from the CofS “Religious Crusade Rally” by the courthouse by about ten CofS “security” guards. A mob of about forty fanatical cult members joined the chase, grabbing my signs and forcing me into the street while a Channel 11 camerawoman (see middle lower picture) was filming away. Jeff Pomerantz (lower right corner), and others of the mob, demonstrated how “Scientology works” by trying to cover up the camera woman’s lense, which resulted in her being struck by a passing car in the street. The police stopped all traffic to handle the situation and helped me escape from the mob unharmed (see lower left picture).

      Sunday 17 Nov. 85: After seeing a defamatory poster with my name on it by the cash register at a nearby store, I walked up Barendo St. to see if there were any more posted. I was approached by two CofS security guards, who said I shouldn’t be there. I continued walking and told them to just leave me alone. Two security guards grabbed an arm each and a third, used painfully crippling, high voltage stun gun on me several times, until I collapsed on the pavement (this caused a severe and painful recurrence of an old back injury). They then handcuffed me, dragged me across the street into a building and threw me on the floor of a basement, where one of the security guards held me down with his foot for about an hour until the police arrived. What I did not know was that the CofS had gotten a valid restraining order on me to prevent me from coming within 50 yeards of the complex. In the past, I had been “served” several restraining orders which did not apply to me, but not this one. When the police arrived they arrested me, took me downtown, and booked me. I was released on bail. Stay tuned for court results

      https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.scientology/4FKW-CsXA_Q

      • FredEX2

        Wow. Incredible. What has happened to Frank now?

  • What’sup

    That was the best radio slot I’ve heard our man do. It’s also the first one he hasn’t mentioned your parents
    having rough sex.

    Coincidence maybe.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Specifically my parents?

      ….how does he know?!?

      • What’sup

        Yep, and i don’t know.

        • LongtimeLurker

          Tony, I have a question…

          Okay then.

          • What’sup

            There’s some stuff you don’t wanna know………ya know?

            • LongtimeLurker

              *nodding vigorously*

  • LongtimeLurker
    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      I bet this person is using RMycroft’s “Today in Scientology History” feature at umbraxenu. Good idea.

      http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/today.html

      • chukicita

        Ooo, here’s another good one from today. EDIT: Thanks, RMycroft!

        I wonder how Scn, Inc.’s reverence of this particular wog state law extended to certain issues of Freedom magazine?

        Church’s complaints take buses off road

        1998-12-09, Thomas C. Tobin, St. Petersburg Times

        The ads were
        purchased by church critics and were to be on buses Saturday through
        Monday as part of a weekend-long protest against Scientology.

        Each of the 11 ads carried a different message. Among them: “Think for
        Yourself. Quit Scientology,” “Find out why so many people oppose Dianetics and Scientology” and “Why does Scientology lie to its members?”

        Scientology representatives began phoning the homes of transit and Clearwater
        city officials after the buses began rolling Saturday morning. The
        church argued that the ads violated a state law regarding published
        material that “tends to expose any individual or any religious group to
        hatred, contempt, ridicule or (abusive language).”

        • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

          There’s a trip down memory lane!

        • 28 years ago, Heber Jentzsch is locked up in Spain.

          And today he’s still locked up.

      • LongtimeLurker

        This person is me.

        And I absolutely thought about it, but I’m deliberately not, because I didn’t want to leech off someone else’s hard work.

        But maybe I’ll ask.

        I’ve just been typing in the date + Scientology. And 10 bad things pop up.

        It’s ludicrously easy. They’re terrible.

        • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

          It’s you? Nice! I bet RMycroft would be more than happy for you to use his database. He has worked so hard on it; it deserves to be widely used. Top idea 🙂

          • LongtimeLurker

            Thanks a lot Andrea. That means a lot from you. Truly.

            And yeah, I’ll ask.

            I’ll keep doing it until my head explodes, or they complain to Twitter and shut me down.

            Notice how I didn’t say “or until I run out of material”?

            • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

              “or until I run out of material”

              How many lifetimes do you have? 🙂

            • Missionary Kid

              “How many lifetimes do you have?” I’m howling!

        • Feel feel to use whatever you can from my list. It’s meant as a resource for anyone to use.

          • LongtimeLurker

            Hi!

            Okay, thanks.

            And good work, as usual. : )

    • PickAnotherID

      Hey! IRS, yeah, you. Pay attention to this^^^^^

      • LongtimeLurker

        : )

      • chukicita

        PickAnotherID! Glad to see you back. Hoka hey!

        And YES our congress and IRS need to take a page from the Brits on this one.

        • PickAnotherID

          Yeah, got back late Thursday, still feeling ice in my bones. Didn’t really thaw out until I read yesterday’s story, then the rage hit like an over stoked furnace.

        • PickAnotherID

          If nothing else, during my time in the freezer I learned ‘Hoka hey!’ means ‘Let’s go!’, not Hollywood’s, ‘It’s a good day to die.’ Always learning something.

          • chukicita

            LOL! Lots of early Hollywood westerns used the same bunch of Navajo who were living near Malibu, and no matter what tribe they were supposed to be portraying, they’d be speaking Dine. A bus would pull up and there would be work that day.

            Navajo still enjoy watching these because sometimes the actors would be saying funny things in Dine, maybe making a little fun of the white actors, but with the stereotypical serious faces that they were expected to make.

            THANK YOU for going there. I’m glad you learned some Lakota. Mitakuse Oyasin.

  • RandomSP

    OK, I’m gullible…

  • dungeon master

    Hello Jon! Always nice to see you around the Bunker! Coffee’s on.

  • George M. White

    Although scholars dispute that he even said it, Mark Twain said it all:
    “It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”

    Well ,yes, Jon, it took a lot of courage to admit I was fooled by Hubbard.
    That happened somewhere in 1993.
    So I thought I shook Hubbard because no one talked about him
    and I did not think about him.
    But in 2008 when Professor Urban called about the OT 8
    “Jesus pedophile” Bulletin, I got interested again.
    But this interest was more to help people see that he was mad.
    I did not shake Hubbard until, to my own satisfaction, I had
    broken down his mind into tiny pieces. Hubbard, IMHO, damaged himself
    from childhood reading all of the occults books. This is why he could
    keep going after flunking Physics and life in general. I saw, he had an
    alternative reality. Hubbard was a dangerous person but he hid it so well.
    He was not at all creative. He just “copied and changed” almost every idea.

    • Missionary Kid

      I don’t believe that Hubbard damaged himself from childhood by reading occult books. I would imagine that he had a gift for storytelling/lying he discovered at a young age. As he grew older, I believe that he found in the occult, one group of people who he could bamboozle. Later, in the people who believed in UFOs, he found another, then, in religious seekers, and people in psychological turmoil, then people worried about the state of the world, he suckered all of them in by saying, “I have the answer.” Take a course, you you’ll start to discover the answers you seek.”

      $cientology was simply the apex of his storytelling/lying, IMO.

      • George M. White

        Point well taken. Hubbard did not tell the truth of his insecurity. Perhaps, damage is too strong a term. He was overly influenced by the occult because it was easy to read about it and it fit in with his fiction. Nonetheless, he did find people in turmoil. He was good in marketing and could find the fools.

        • Mockingbird

          He didn’t merely read the occult. He used self hypnosis commands with his affirmations for decades and purposely avoided self criticism or reflection and that in my opinion had a profound influence on his mind. He certainly was extremely radicalized compared to most people.

          Some people get radicalized by one book like the Turner Diaries or the Collector. I feel for some people just one book like the OAHSPE can profoundly cause or help a transformation in a person.

      • kemist

        I think Hubbard had NPD.

        In some of his writing (it’s very present in the Affirmations, for example) you can sense his real opinion of himself, which was wretched.

        Often people develop NPD from the way they were raised. It would have been very interesting to watch his behavior with his parents / caretakers. It would show you the exact family dynamic that created the disorder.

        • Missionary Kid

          He had Narcissistic Personality Disorder in spades. I’ll bet that he got doted on by his mother and aunts because his father was away a lot of time.

    • Mockingbird

      Not to rush to judgment and condemn a broad group altogether, but I have found several people that utilize various affirmations and a denial or avoidance of acknowledging anything negative about themselves as a way of life that are morally questionable at best.

      Several cult leaders in history have done this. Marcus Aurelius used affirmations and they have some pleasant ideas, but if you examine the reality of his life it paints a picture of someone with a life in reality that was far different than the one in his mind. Deep reflections on nobility and honor accompanied life with brutal violence, gross inequality and an unthinking acceptance of injustice like slavery as a way of life.

    • Kim O’Brien

      if he read philosophy , would he have been more introspective ? or if he watched comedy all day ….would that have made him funny ? reading books about the occult ….i really doubt that made him a lying sack of shit con man with mental problems .

    • kemist

      What made him attracted to and get so much into that schlock, though ?

      I was an avid reader from the moment I learned to read, and I read a lot of things, including stuff about UFOs, purported paranormal powers and occult. Never developped much of an interest. I mean, they made entertaining stories, but using those magic spells as a basis for your life ? That was for children, I thought. I had much more interest for real science – you know, how stuff works.

      I think by the time he read that crap, Hubbard was already a self-absorbed brat who thought the only way he could get the admiration from other people he so much craved was to manipulate and lie to them. The occult books promised him a sure fire way to do that, and he wanted to believe it too much to think too critically about them.

  • deanblair

    John, I absolutely love your wry sense of humor. No one does it better.

  • The Ganzfeld effect which Jon mentions is, I think, central to understanding the power of Scientology’s early training routines. https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/undertanding-the-scientology-mindset-pt-12-scientologys-training-routines-and-the-ganzfeld-effect/ This interpretion is serendipitously backed up by a extensive experiments by an academic psychologist who was looking for a convenient way to induce a dissociated state so as to make it easier to study https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/the-compelling-effects-of-simply-staring-understanding-the-scientology-mindset-part-13/

    Basically staring at another human face for only 15 minutes brings about a dissociated state. Doing it for longer frequently brings about ‘strange face’ hallucinations. If the TR is continued for any length of time (or the person practicing it is particuarly suseptible) full-blown hallucinations can result.

    It turns out that unchanging visual input has almost a dramatic an effect on our state of mind and perceptions as sensory deprivation (and is a lot easier to subject people to). Scientologists who practice it continually have often learned to induce an altered state of consiousness at will – something i have witnessed at protests, when a person points a camera at and not only adopts that unsettling ‘thousand yard stare’, but ‘zones out’ – they are no longer mentally present at all. In this altered state, nothing you can say actually reaches them – one good reason why Scientologists are required to ‘keep their TRs in’.

    Having said this, there is significant variation is a person’s vulnerablity – some experience full-blown hallucinations early on, and are blown away by the glimpse into ‘previous lives’. Others, less so, right down to 2% of the population who experience no effect except for the dissociated state https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2016/08/09/scientology-and-visual-imagery-understanding-the-scientology-mindset-pt-14/

    Where did Hubbard get this idea? As is often the case, it was floating around the cultic milleu in many forms. One of these is the ‘magic mirror’ used in ‘occult’ practices. Basically, you stare at your own reflection for a sustained period and are ‘rewarded’ with ‘visions from the spirit world’.

    The psychologist mentioned above also studied the effects of staring into mirrors. They were the same as staring at another person (dissociation, suggestibility and hallucinations) but took longer to emerge.

    If anyone with knowledge of this area could suggest what occult practice might have introduced Hubbard to the ‘magic mirror’ and its effects (perhaps his activities with Jack Parsons and the OTO) I would be very interested indeed.

    • chukicita

      This is really interesting. I had not heard of this Ganzfield effect before. It brings to mind a childhood game that I learned at an October birthday party sleepover – Bloody Mary – where if you stare into a mirror and call out to Bloody Mary, she will appear in the mirror.

      I guess many old practices, such as looking into reflective surfaces like crystal balls to talk with spirits or predict the future, could have influenced Hubbard.

      • As you say, the ‘magic mirror’ is used for ‘skrying’ (along with pools of water, and the iconic crystal ball) – that is looking for a guidance by inducing ‘visions’ (AKA altered states of consiousness).

        “Bloody Mary” is a distinct possiblity for the origin of Hubbard’s interest. It is a practice that seems to be regularly rediscovered under various names and appears in variiou cultures, suggesting that some universal phenomenon underlies it.

        Most people playing the game will likely lose their nerve after they start to experience induced dissociation (which typically takes approx 15 minues) because they are ex[ecting something scary to happen. However, some people who stare long enough and fixedly enough,may actually experience a ‘strange face’ hallucination that fits their expectations accounting for its persistence.

        Your socially-generated expectations here are crucial. If you are playing the game, you might be convinced that you had seen ‘Bloody Mary’ and carry a belief in ‘the spirit world’ based on that entirely subjective experience for years.

        If you have a similar vision in Scientology, it is likely to be interpreted as evidence that you have recovered snatches of memory from a ‘revious life’ and you will be praised for your ‘talent’. I sus;ect that many Independent Scientologists cling to ‘the tech’ despite multiple disappointments because of just such an experience.

        • kemist

          Perhaps I’m weird, but I have done that staring (in another context – it was expected of me that I, uhm, “realize” that we were “all one with the universe”) and seen the strange things… And that was that.

          I was aware those things were just a trick my eyes were playing on me, just like what happens when you put pressure on your eyes with your fingers and see colors.

          Maybe it’s because my vision is super bad and I always knew not to trust it completely.

          • The first of the three links I give above above quotes extensively from the sociologist William Simms Bainbridge, who practiced TRs as a participant observer. His attitude was exactly the same as yours, and he experienced some quite wierd ‘strange face’ hallucinations.

            However, his ‘twin’ (an English teacher) did not have the same understanding of the perceptual tricks that your mind can play upon you in unusual circumstances as Bainbridge did. He was absolutely blown away by the experience. He might also have been someone who possessed exceptionally vivid visual imagery.
            .
            The crucial thing is how the experience is framed and understood. For Bainbridge, his hallucinations were plainly well-understood neurological phenomenon that he had learned about at University. For his twin, they were likely inexplicable – and Scientologists were on hand to provide an interpretation in terms of ‘previous lives’ which, for lack of an accessible alternative, he may well have accepted.

        • chukicita

          I think you nailed it here.

        • chukicita

          Thinking more about this. Some people use water in the act of meditative prayer. Sometimes things are “seen” in this state. I am thinking of several different indigenous cultures here.

          • I’ve never heard of that – but it’s likely that you can find similar examples in every culture and every time period because the potential for that kind of vision is wired into human beings.

            I think Hubbard stumbled upon it via ‘magic’ and, characteristically, exploited it to the limit in order to manipulate people (in this case to provide a compelling subjective experience, apparently out of nowhere, to support his claims of ‘previous lives’).

    • Mockingbird

      I know he used commands on running white and black and spotting spots in space that were variations on hypnosis from the thirties. In 8-8008 I think Hubbard had many methods that are actually right out of hypnosis books, just with Hubbard’s language on thetans and attention units and present time, tone scale and the reactive mind added.

      I remember reading about Crowley using one of the hypnotic techniques that uses staring at something. It was very similar to several auditing methods. The OAHSPE also has some ideas on this Hubbard used in my opinion.

      • I’d characterise these phenomena as altered states of consiousness which include suggestibility. That’s more specific and excludes the baggage that comes with hypnotism.

        Things like the Ganzfeld effect are not based on suggestion, like hypnotism (which is a consensual fantasy that is easily broken). They have a neurological basis and will be experienced (more or less) by almost anybody who follows the procedure.

        Your mention of Crowley is interesting. I do suspect that Hubbard got the idea from the OTO but don’t know enough about their practices to assess whether or not this is feasible.

        • Mockingbird

          I think it’s important to see a person using commands he understands to be hypnotic and intended to function as hypnosis as hypnosis. It’s a subject.

          It’s like saying a voodoo priest uses a voodoo ritual. It doesn’t mean I believe his ideas on voodoo are true, it means he does. Hubbard believed in and tried to use hypnosis. Part of the effect that method creates is dissociation. A dissociated state is actually a definition for hypnosis used by some psychoanalytic therapists.

          Hypnosis isn’t a scientifically established uniform subject. I am not claiming it is by pointing out that Hubbard studied it, tried ro use it and noted the phenomena it created and redefined them to persuade people he wasn’t hypnotizing them and instead was freeing or enlightening them.

          Anything involving the human mind has a neurological basis. So that’s a sort of red herring. Different subjects use different language to describe their emphasis. Psychology may define something one way and hypnosis another and neuroscience another. They don’t automatically compete with or invalidate each other.

          And that definition of hypnosis is one I don’t see as proven or encompassing everything in the subject.

          • I understand what you are saying about hypnosis. It’s one of those subjects that dissolve under close examination, but is exactly the kind of thing that Hubbard would use to gain credibility.

            When I spoke of a ‘neurological basis’ I expressed myself badly, and that’s a point well made.

            I meant that there is huge variation in susceptibility to hypnotic induction. Even those who do ‘hypnotise’ have to be in the right state of mind – relaxed and engaged. In contrast, things like the Ganzfeld effect work at a more basic level, and are experieced by a almost everybody who follows the procedure.

            • Mockingbird

              That’s an important distinction. I believe hypnosis relies on physiological and psychological effects.

              Some people are notoriously difficult to hypnotize and if you believe hypnosis has at least the three basic components then it shows it can be difficult to create.

              The formula of suggestions and imagination with transference to add up to hypnosis requires a mind experience all three for hypnosis to have any chance to occur. Transference might not occur if you don’t trust the hyonotist, so no hypnosis. Your communication might not function as suggestions because the subject doesn’t understand them or for example an idiom in the commands may be taken literally and be impossible to follow in that way so no hypnosis, and a subject may simply lack the imagination for something. No imagination no hypnosis.

              If you create an image of skyscrapers and New York for someone that has never been in a city or seen a building that may stop hypnosis too.

              Lots of methods of hypnotic induction rely on anxiety, confusion, submission or attention overwhelm. Hubbard specialized in all of them.

              Relaxed is different from submissive. Relaxed in my opinion is a result of hypnosis, not a prerequisite or source.

            • Mockingbird

              A physiological effect from stimuli is something that can be produced more easily than hypnosis results as they are more easily produced.

    • kemist

      Human vision can be hacked very easily.

      The basis for that effect is that cones get “tired” of always being stimulated with the same colors. So much so that the retina will start simulating the complementary colors by itself. If you stare at a red patch and move your eyes to a white surface, you’ll see a ghost of the same shape, in green.

      Add to this that our vision necessitates a lot of treatment, both locally in the eye (not all information reaches the brain in raw format) and in the visual cortex, especially when it comes to recognizing human faces and expressions, and you have all the elements necessary to induce hallucinations.

      • truth will set u free

        I like how you explained this in a purely scientific manner. Oftentimes we look.to mystical traditions for some Scientology methods when really it was just a more.mundane origin

    • Mockingbird

      At Lermanet.com Arnie Lerma has some ideas on this. And references too.

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      As I recall it,TR0 was a drill for the auditor to first simply BE there so as to get what the preclear said or did.

      Maybe I just took it at face value, but for me the challenge indeed was to simply keep my attention comfortably on the PC for an extended period of time, without having my mind drift onto a billion random thoughts.

      I never really got into hallucinations or other “trips” that I know of.

      At the time, the idea of keeping one’s attention focused in the present moment was new to me. Now I know that other practices have similar exercises.

      • There are two. One involves sitting facing another person with your eyes closed and “just being there”. The second involves the fixed staring into another person’s face. That’s the one that provokes strange reactions.

        If you didn’t have any reaction… well… many people don’t to that kind of thing (me for example). However, there is a thread on one of the ex-Scientologist bulletin boards in which people recount extraordinary experiences. It does seem to happen. A lot.

  • PickAnotherID

    $cientology makes a lot of noise about the UN’s ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’ to outsiders. While inside, by Hubbard’s intent and at Miscavige’s command, they regularly try to withhold those rights from “parishioners”, and destroy them for anyone who is critical of their actions. So I find today a fitting time to declare these abuses are going to be dragged into the light from the shadows $cientology has kept them hidden in. Not just by a few with access to TV people or book publishers*, but by every decent person who doesn’t want to see any more families subject to things like what was exposed in yesterdays story: (f5)

    http://ngocc.org.zm/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Human-Rights-Day-7.png

    As a start, I’m getting with some of my Vet buddies to push the State Department to start making unannouced visits to $cientology facilities to verify foreign workers have physical possession of their passports, and they are not being “held” for them. We also plan to hammer the IRS oversight Congress Critters to get answers from the IRS on why any organization that operates the way $cientology does is tax exempt. Expecially in light of the Hernandez ruling.

    ETA: Any input on what else to point the regular folks at are welcome.

    * I love the books, and especially Leah’s show, which is stirring regular people up in a way that hasn’t happened before. So it’s time to start letting those regular people, who don’t hang out on the blogs, know what they can do to help bring $cientology’s human rights abuses to an end.

    • LongtimeLurker

      My god man, you’re unstoppable!

      • PickAnotherID

        No, I’m just really, and I mean REALLY, pissed off.

        • Missionary Kid

          When I point people to Leah’s show, I warn them that they will really be pissed off. That makes them even more curious.

    • Missionary Kid

      Leah’s show has created a subconscious rumbling, like a volcano about to erupt. I keep finding people who have heard something about it and are curious. I try to encourage that curiosity by giving them just a few snippets.

    • Recently in the UK two professional footballers (US: read soccer players) went to the police and thepress about the sexual abuse they had suffered, years ago, as junior players in major football clubs. This is currently a big story here.

      As often happens, such acts of astonishing courage have inspired others to come forward, investigations are underway and offenders who thought they have got away with it may soon be brought to book.

      I’m hoping that Leah’s series will inspire others in a similar way, that the dam will break and a flood of stories about Scientology’s abuses with come forth – and go mainstream. Perhaps yesterdays harrowing account was one of the first.

      • PickAnotherID

        And when the stories come out, they need to stir regular folks to demand action. Not just us “internet fringers”, and “bitter apostates”.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Nothing more hypocritical than the cult staging some silly human rights support event.

      Personally, I’d like to march a bunch of their victims onto stage and take the place over!

  • The voyage out of Scientology: Gullible’s Travels.

  • Mockingbird

    Good gullible day Bunkeroos.

    I am becoming quite familiar with these great ideas from Jon Atack over time and as my own continuing studies outside Scientology of cultic subjects and related issues continues I have gained probably a unique perspective. I see cultic studies as requiring at least some education on many subjects like critical thinking, hypnosis, rhetoric, social psychology, abusive relationships, healthy relationships, totalitarian regimes, logical fallacies, skepticism, narcissism, antisocial behavior and the history of cults, cult leaders and information critical of cults too.

    It’s a multidisciplinary approach and you really have to find experts that can zero in on crucial concepts with extremely concise and precise terms with extreme relevance to the most essential ideas. With Scientology in particular it’s a huge challenge as it’s a web of lies thousands and thousands of lies thick with every imaginable cross connection to link them together and Orwellian reversals and twists to confuse and confound a victim. Hubbard’s loaded language of the opposite of reality functions with his phrases of thought stopping cliches to be a language of lies. It creates a delusion of a world that never was, with people that are equally false thinking, feeling and behaving in ways and for reasons that are also untrue. Jon Atack has called it the study of shadows, as in things that seem to be but actually are not. That’s an accurate description.

    I can share some of my opinion on Jon Atack at this point and assure you he is meticulous in his statements. He often will correct a tiny discrepancy in something he or someone else says. He isn’t given to exaggerations in my experience.

    So when he says “Scientology is the most elaborate confidence trick every devised by human mind” he genuinely means it. That’s astounding. To consider that in all the millennia of human existence and the billions and billions of lives lived we Scientologists got to experience the most elaborate confidence trick EVER devised by human mind AND realize it and reject it puts us in a unique position. It’s certainly humbling and cause for reflection on what it means to be human. Outside of any religious or deep philosophical context with the most basic ideas and information available one can look at this and see a sobering and perhaps poignant perspective.

    We live, can definitely be fooled no matter how much certainty or passion we have and will leave this world someday. It’s not going to be different if we are good or bad or perhaps most of us are somewhere in between, either way this life is not one of profound wisdom or unshakable answers. At least not that I have found.

    I remember in getting out of Scientology it was a very long process of slight incremental changes in becoming open to the possibility that I might have been wrong about Scientology. Until that frame of mind was achieved rejecting Scientology despite any evidence wasn’t something I was prepared to do.

    Once several crucial changes in my thinking occurred I was primed to actually consider the unthinkable – that Scientology actually might not have been making my life better. Once I realized I had been automatically assuming Scientology was exactly what Hubbard said despite any contradictory evidence for decades and that that assumption was not necessarily the wisest choice possible only then could I start to notice contradictions and discrepancies in Scientology doctrine itself.

    That led me to be ready to see the Posse Of Lunatics story as raising more questions than it answered which led me to the Underground Bunker and then the Scientology Mythbusting series and Jon Atack’s masterpiece on the contradictions in Scientology on Hubbard’s statements on hypnosis – Never Believe A Hypnotist. That helped me realize why certain experiences in Scientology occurred, how Hubbard could understand they would occur and how he could use language to reframe those mundane experiences as proof of his technology, despite the phenomena having perfectly normal and accurate explanations available in psychology and hypnosis.

    Several moments led to the incremental changes needed. It was like someone picking a lock and needing to get each series of hidden gears and tumblers to move into the exact right position in the exact right sequence and combinations to open the lock.

    I was away from the cult and not getting constant reinforcement of cult doctrine and social support. I was thinking in English as I got a job that required rapid and clear communication with normal people and realized I was thinking in Scientology terms and needed to translate everything in my mind. I assumed switching to English wouldn’t change anything as a person who knows Spanish and English presumably wouldn’t be affected by thinking in either one. It actually reduced the self reinforcement Scientology terms and phrases create.

    I realized that no matter what doctrine one follows it doesn’t remove the responsibility of a person for their own behavior. That was a very important realization.

    I didn’t understand why at the time as I was thinking about how other people use a religion or political affiliation to justify or condemn behavior and just saw it as an error in reasoning to do that. I for some reason felt it had tremendous significance but didn’t understand quite why. It of course had tremendous resonance in me.

    I actually a short time after that was wondering why I had a good job and great family and knew good people but felt something was not how it should be, but didn’t know what I felt or why I felt that way.

    I thought I should look carefully at my life and see if anything was detrimental and thought except of course for Scientology as it must be above criticism and Hubbard could only do good. But I realized I was ASSUMING that without carefully verifying it.

    It didn’t make sense to carefully examine my life and place it in a frame of assuming everything fit Hubbard’s doctrine and also think I was honestly looking without bias. The two ideas could then generate cognitive dissonance at a level where I could perceive it consciously instead of just denying it as I would have before.

    Then I felt anxiety consciously and was aware it was related to reluctance to even doubt or question Scientology. It felt like an abandonment of comfort and a betrayal of Hubbard personally. I was very confused and frustrated but felt I could just go back to not doubting Scientology if I found reassurance.

    I was confused as I hesitantly and secretly examined neutral and critical information on Scientology. Another tumbler clicked into position when I found out skeptical people are exactly who cults want as they are overconfident and easy to recruit. I also discovered that in influence or hypnosis some experts see more intelligent minds as easier to control as the victim’s own imagination is employed to convince them. It’s hard to use a mind lacking imagination to create any ideas, true or false. That was another click. As I realized I was responsible for my choices and not Hubbard, my group or anything else then saw my personal assumptions about Scientology as my personal responsibility it opened up a new world of awareness.

    As I realized intelligence and a feeling of being jaded or skeptical actually make someone easier to fool I was quite alarmed and started seeing red flags again.

    Then seeing that Hubbard said a lot that didn’t make sense and contradicted his other statements made me actually look at that instead of avoiding it as I would have before. Then seeing how basic hypnosis techniques work as repetition, attention fixation or division, contradiction (aka paradox or confusion), mimicry and vivid imagery or relaxing or compelling sounds or sensations or heightened anxiety or information overload led me to realize hundreds of methods in Scientology and Dianetics fit that exact description. That array of techniques could not be coincidentally the methods in Scientology AND by happenstance be the methods in hypnosis too.

    And then once I overcame those hurdles and found out more about how auditing and even study technology indoctrination function to create the exact physiological effects of hypnosis and cognitive restructuring with cognitive dissonance I realized Scientology had no benefits whatsoever.

    I will always have gratitude and appreciate the Underground Bunker and Scientology Mythbusting for the essential role in my recovery they played.

    • Arthur Pewtie

      Thanks for sharing your perspective. Definitely worth reading.

      • Mockingbird

        Thanks. I say this stuff often but try to find the most concise and relevant points to combine for it to make sense and provide a perspective on how someone gets out of Scientology. That’s one of the most frequent and important questions about Scientology.

  • Racnad

    While it’s fine for Leah Remini to bring us the horror stories of Sea Org life, what I find fascinating to look at the process by which a Scientologist (who may be a long-time public Scientologists or someone raised in the group) becomes a non-scientologist. I see it as a multi-step process that looks like this:

    1) You see things that don’t look right. You justify it. I must have misunderstood. It is explained on a higher level.
    2) Other people are out-tech. What the people at the org did is not OK. I’ll write them up.
    3) Some Scientology processes don’t work on me. I must have experienced out-tech.

    3) Scientology is good but parts of the organization are corrupt.
    4) Scientology is good, but I don’t like the way management is taking it. I’ll stay low, and go back after I fix it.

    5) Scientology is good, but has been taken over of corrupt evil people.
    6) Now it looks like Hubbard was corrupt too. But how could he create such great tech? This is so confusing!

    7) I was scammed.

  • Mockingbird

    Reposted from below:

    Good gullible day Bunkeroos.

    I am becoming quite familiar with these great ideas from Jon Atack over time and as mu own continuing studies outside Scientology of cultic subjects and related issues continues I have gained probably a unique perspective. I see cultic studies as requiring at least some education on many subjects like critical thinking, hypnosis, rhetoric, social psychology, abusive relationships, healthy relationships, totalitarian regimes, logical fallacies, skepticism, narcissism, antisocial behavior and the history of cults, cult leaders and information critical of cults too.

    It’s a multidisciplinary approach and you really have to find experts that can zero in on crucial concepts with extremely concise and precise terms with extreme relevance to the most essential ideas. With Scientology in particular it’s a huge challenge as it’s a web of lies thousands and thousands of lies thick with every imaginable cross connection to link them together and Orwellian reversals and twists to confuse and confound a victim. Hubbard’s loaded language of the opposite of reality functions with his phrases of thought stopping cliches to be a language of lies. It creates a delusion of a world that never was, with people that are equally false thinking, feeling and behaving in ways and for reasons that are also untrue. Jon Atack has called it the study of shadows, as in things that seem to be but actually are not. That’s an accurate description.

    I can share some of my opinion on Jon Atack at this point and assure you he is meticulous in his statements. He often will correct a tiny discrepancy in something he or someone else says. He isn’t given to exaggerations in my experience.

    So when he says “Scientology is the most elaborate confidence trick every devised by human mind” he genuinely means it. That’s astounding. To consider that in the all the millennia of human existence and the billions and billions of lives lived we Scientologists got to experience the most elaborate confidence trick EVER devised by human mind AND realize it and reject it puts us in a unique position. It’s certainly humbling and cause for reflection on what it means to be human. Outside of any religious or deep philosophical context with the most basic ideas and information available one can look at this and see a sobering and perhaps poignant perspective.

    We live, can definitely be fooled no matter how much certainty or passion we have and will leave this world someday. It’s not going to be different if we are good or bad or perhaps most of us are somewhere in between, either way this life is not one of profound wisdom or unshakable answers. At least not that I have found.

    I remember in getting out of Scientology it was a very long process of slight incremental changes in becoming open to the possibility that I might have been wrong about Scientology. Until that frame of mind was achieved rejecting Scientology despite any evidence wasn’t something I was prepared to do.

    Once several crucial changes in my thinking occurred I was primed to actually consider the unthinkable – that Scientology actually might not have been making my life better. Once I realized I had been automatically assuming Scientology was exactly what Hubbard said despite any contradictory evidence for decades and that that assumption was not necessarily the wisest choice possible only then could I start to notice contradictions and discrepancies in Scientology doctrine itself.

    That led me to be ready to see the Posse Of Lunatics story as raising more questions than it answered which led me to the Underground Bunker and then the Scientology Mythbusting series and Jon Atack’s masterpiece on the contradictions in Scientology on Hubbard’s statements on hypnosis – Never Believe A Hypnotist. That helped me realize why certain experiences in Scientology occurred, how Hubbard could understand they would occur and how he could use language to reframe those mundane experiences as proof of his technology, despite the phenomena having perfectly normal and accurate explanations available in psychology and hypnosis.

    Several moments led to the incremental changes needed. It was like someone picking a lock and needing to get each series of hidden gears and tumblers to move into the exact right position in the exact right sequence and combinations to open the lock.

    I was away from the cult and not getting constant reinforcement of cult doctrine and social support. I was thinking in English as I got a job that required rapid and clear communication with normal people and realized I was thinking in Scientology terms and needed to translate everything in my mind. I assumed switching to English wouldn’t change anything as a person who knows Spanish and English presumably wouldn’t be affected by thinking in either one. It actually reduced the self reinforcement Scientology terms and phrases create.

    I realized that no matter what doctrine one follows it doesn’t remove the responsibility of a person for their own behavior. That was a very important realization.

    I didn’t understand why at the time as I was thinking about how other people use a religion or political affiliation to justify or condemn behavior and just saw it as an error in reasoning to do that. I for some reason felt it had tremendous significance but didn’t understand quite why. It of course had tremendous resonance in me.

    I actually a short time after that was wondering why I had a good job and great family and knew good people but felt something was not how it should be, but didn’t know what I felt or why I felt that way.

    I thought I should look carefully at my life and see if anything was detrimental and thought except of course for Scientology as it must be above criticism and Hubbard could only do good. But I realized I was ASSUMING that without carefully verifying it.

    It didn’t make sense to carefully examine my life and place it in a frame of assuming everything fit Hubbard’s doctrine and also think I was honestly looking without bias. The two ideas could then generate cognitive dissonance at a level where I could perceive it consciously instead of just denying it as I would have before.

    Then I felt anxiety consciously and was aware it was related to reluctance to even doubt or question Scientology. It felt like an abandonment of comfort and a betrayal of Hubbard personally. I was very confused and frustrated but felt I could just go back to not doubting Scientology if I found reassurance.

    I was confused as I hesitantly and secretly examined neutral and critical information on Scientology. Another tumbler clicked into position when I found out skeptical people are exactly who cults want as they are overconfident and easy to recruit. I also discovered that in influence or hypnosis some experts see more intelligent minds as easier to control as the victim’s own imagination is employed to convince them. It’s hard to use a mind lacking imagination to create any ideas, true or false. That was another click. As I realized I was responsible for my choices and not Hubbard, my group or anything else then saw my personal assumptions about Scientology as my personal responsibility it opened up a new world of awareness.

    As I realized intelligence and a feeling of being jaded or skeptical actually make someone easier to fool I was quite alarmed and started seeing red flags again.

    Then seeing that Hubbard said a lot that didn’t make sense and contradicted his other statements made me actually look at that instead of avoiding it as I would have before. Then seeing how basic hypnosis techniques work as repetition, attention fixation or division, contradiction (aka paradox or confusion), mimicry and vivid imagery or relaxing or compelling sounds or sensations or heightened anxiety or information overload led me to realize hundreds of methods in Scientology and Dianetics fit that exact description. That array of techniques could not be coincidentally the methods in Scientology AND by happenstance be the methods in hypnosis too.

    And then once I overcame those hurdles and found out more about how auditing and even study technology indoctrination function to create the exact physiological effects of hypnosis and cognitive restructuring with cognitive dissonance I realized Scientology had no benefits whatsoever.

    I will always have gratitude and appreciate the Underground Bunker and Scientology Mythbusting for the essential role in my recovery they played.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      Scientology and Hubbard’s soul-improvement peddling still has a foot in the door, due to the world’s other subjects and groups that peddle variations of soul saving Heaven enlightenment.

      Scientology is sadly frankly also just another Denny’s restaurant of soul-improvement.

      Hubbard’s Style Soul-Cooking-Enlightenment Totalitarian Churches.

      The problem is human belief in the supernatural, the hope for the good ending in the supernatural Heaven or enlightenment or soul-freedom, which people wish to be true for all their reasons.

      People provide the ammunitioin of hope for these supernatural improvements and transcendent futures.

      How do you stamp out transcendent universal supernatural hopes of humans?

      • Mockingbird

        There’s a lot of issues here at once. Probably ninety percent of people claim some religious or spiritual beliefs. Technically a skeptic might say they all have a degree of unproven claims.

        I have seen atheists that argue any such beliefs are dangerous in their influence on behavior.

        I look at how cultic a group is by the eight criteria for thought reform Robert Jay Lifton described and the six conditions that Margaret Singer outlined and the BITE model Steven Hassan created and the one hundred points of the cult test by A Orange which is available free online.

        As an example found after twenty five years in Scientology that it fit all the points in Lifton’s and Singer’s and Hassan’s models. I got a ninety eight on the cult test in evaluating Scientology !

        No human sacrifice or Satanic rituals in Scientology but it had all the other characteristics the cult test listed.

        • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

          I like the “hobby” categorization for “religion”.

          If it’s a good helpful thing for a person’s life, it gives them useful results, then fine.

          And framing a group as unhelpful to a person’s joys in life, for sure, that’s just so consumer reports style of criticism correct.

          Scientology emotionally whips it’s followers mercilessly due to Hubbard’s iron-clad rules and regulations.

          That’s bad, so if one has to do supernatural past-lives crank pseudo-therapy to find one’s hidden “engrams” past lives trauma and eliminate it, that’s balderdash only suitable to be done by people who don’t get further messed up mentally, and really a waste of anyone’s time. “Body-thetan” removal, or exorcism, done on the secret “upper levels” of Scientology, OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, likewise I wouldn’t recommend learning to believe in “body-thetans” to just learn how to remove them from your body!

          Scientology’s supernatural beliefs should be laid out, for the public to see what’s in store if they do want to go shopping into Scientology’s soul-improvement practices.

          Then, the whole regulation (disconnection if you don’t toe the lineup procedures), boy that is so easy and correct to criticise from all of the outside angles all have for decades correctly criticised Scientology’s nuts and bolts day to day operation.

          • Mockingbird

            Well from my perspective human rights are a high priority. The authentic subjectivity of a person is denied by lying to them as Scientology is designed to do.

            Abusive practices make cults cults. Scientology is jam packed with them from end to end. The language itself is full of reversals of truth to induce Orwellian double think. A subject with thousands and thousands of terms and phrases to remove or reframe is not very honest.

            The outlandish upper level revelations aren’t especially bad, but the hundreds of other things that are traumatic and abusive in Scientology are objectionable.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              “….lying to them as Scientology is designed to do…”

              We’re born into a world lying to us about the supernatural on so many religious fronts, it was dizzying and confusing to me which “religion” to choose, and with souls and Heaven and enlightenment, and all the various “religious” offerings, that’s the broader and constant framing for Scientology.

              Are Hubbard and Scientologists lying by saying the soul can be free of the body?

              Of course they are. No soul has really soul-flown in human history, it’s all been hallucination and it’s unfortunately mass human ignorance.

              How to dislodge the massive human history of supernatural/religious/cosmic unprovable but yearned for hope in soul and Heaven and englightenment?

              Scientology is intrinsically stuck into that context, and lie as Hubbard and Scientology does, it’s lying that is going on and will go on even when the public today is informed of Scientology’s totalitarianism Human Rights violations.

              My thoughts immediately jump to the indie Scientologists with their totalitarianism dropping from their sub group setups. They do Scientology counseling (past lives sleuthing and exorcism of “body thetans”) without all the regulations and disconnection.

              Indie Scientologists even existing unfortunately proves why Scientology has any attraction in this soul improvement angle.

              The subject is Scientology, and what you understand of what the subject is.

              I understand Scientology to be what the Indie Scientologists do on each other.

              That Indie style Scientology will persist when official Scientology tapers off into glitzy Christian Science Empty Reading Rooms fading away.

              The totalitarian official Scientology of today is perceived as Scientology, maybe rightly, by the majority of the people even bothering to notice Scientology.

              The “tech” practices (crank past-lives therapy/exorcism) is always what IS core Scientology, when the outer totalitarian Human Rights abusing regulations predicaments horror life problems causing Scientology of today dampers down into Christian Science showcase empty Reading Rooms motif.

            • Mockingbird

              I have to agree the past life auditing is an important part of Scientology that may survive long after Miscavige and the mother cult kick the ecclesiastical bucket.

              To me it is a harmful practice but may exist as a miniscule fringe practice for centuries if mankind somehow survives that long.

            • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

              Scientology, bigger better empty reading rooms open to the public.

              1000 percent more empty than any other religion on the planet.

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    OT. Deb Maxwell gives Pat Harney a hernia by likening the e-meter to ECT. Pat’s reaction made me smile.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTQ2wnp0pkI

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      And now this kitty will recreate Pat’s response with an art installation….
      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/778392025fcab1d4a634906b393ca4d7339ace3014ffbfa3ab60721ac2013e6d.jpg

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Yes! She usually wants to hang out with Deb for a constructive and educational chat, woman to woman. Not this time 😀

    • She pushed the walk button 3 times.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        “Change, damn you!”

        • I’m always amused when waiting for an elevator, and someone comes and pushes the button I’ve obviously already pushed.
          Like it just wasn’t pushed good enough.
          The worst thing is when the door opens immediately after they do so, and they smugly conclude it was because THEY pushed it.

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Love Deb Maxwell!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    I never tire of praising all who’ve every written and thought about Hubbard’s Scientology, since I freely admit walking into Scientology seeking “out of the body” “causative” soul-flying which I thought Scientology’s L Rundowns would inevitably and guaranteed result in.

    Scientology I presumed and hoped would teach me my innate soul abilities, so I could launch out of my skull like a freed soul, able to persuse the universe unbounded.

    That was the gullibility dream and hope I had for Scientology.

    I dreamed and gullibly hoped that the neatly laid out progression of steps on the Grade Chart to Total Freedom, would be the steps to do to achieve this soul transforming and unburdening of my mind full of engrams and incidents and mechanisms that each of us humans possess, which Hubbard had carefully through his lifetime of research into what commands and questions and trickery of getting us to remember this or that parts of our long ago past lives and moments in our far far back past lives were the trickery mentally we did long ago, which closed down our soul abilities.

    Scientology is a truly promised step by step “Bridge” from the lower soul predicament.

    Promised is the key word.

    Gullibility and hope are key words.

    Dream for a better future for oneself and everyone.

    What could go wrong.

    Escapism, gulibility, con-men wishing to exploit the gullible dreamers for better lives.

    Hubbard met the gullible hopeful people’s demands for soul abilities. Hubbard wrote a humungous long runway of steps to painstakingly do which take years and years and lifetime and still not reach the soul flying ability, at least in my case I got nothing even close to proof of even I was a soul, I had to admit in the end of it all.

    Peddler. Messiah.

    I wouldn’t even be able to express my feelings hadn’t I read all the books and heard all the ways of describing what Hubbard’s Scientology is doing. I’m so appreciative thoughtful people have dissected Scientology.

    Thankyou again Jon Atack and all writers who’ve written clear words discussing Scientology’s and Hubbard’s additional details.

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      The thing that really hooked me into it was the promise of continuity of consciousness from one lifetime to the next, along with the opportunity to ‘get it right’ next time around.

  • Peter

    Wow! Sometimes I suspect that the “thinkers” are the ones who truly get trapped. Never in all my 16 years did I take everything that Hubbard said/wrote apart in such step by step ways. THAT, to me, is a trap in itself. When I noted that I was done, I simply LEFT. What I took with me was what had worked FOR ME and simply left the rest behind. Occasionally, over the years, I spotted stuff which wasn’t working and let go of it. Sometimes I found I was still doing something habitually so started catching myself in the middle of that thought/action and reversed it. I did not have the need to be “smarter” than Hubbard. I just needed to see what did not work for me or was untrue for me. There was lots of that, along with a lot of very valuable and useful information.

    Many of us, in growing up, have just as many dreadful things happen within our own families. Yet we manage to continue with our lives. Sometimes happily, sometimes not.

    And, Jon, if you were trapped using a “thousand yard stare” of a TR-0, I call “flunk” on your course supe and/or your coaches. That’s NOT what TR-0 was/is about. I still am very aware of just “being there” when listening to someone and many times have been complimented on my ability to just listen and be there.

    I guess things were *really* different early on. 🙂

    • You may have been praised for your ability to ‘just be there’ (although I can’t see how the supervisor could possibly know that you weren’t thinking about something to stave off boredom) but did you ever see yourself from the outside after practicing TR0 for an extended period of time?

      With repect, how did you know that you were not exhibiting that ‘thousand yard stare’ witout even knowing it?

      • Mockingbird

        I never had the out of body experience. I now see it as a form of dissociation. Some people simply don’t experience that. I still run into exes that are positive they have gone exterior despite no one ever demonstrating it under scientific testing.

        Lots of Scientologists get the thousand yard stare and keep it for decades.

        • PickAnotherID

          A “thousand yard stare” can also be a sign symptom of post traumatic stress disorder.

          • Mockingbird

            Yes. It can accompany dissociation which is a response to too much trauma and stress disorders involve too much trauma too. Lots of trauma is now available from a variety of sources.

        • Kim O’Brien

          i had one when i was in labor with zero drugs . also had one when i was tripping my face off .

          • Mockingbird

            Ouch. I will skip that.

        • I think that, for some Scientogists, social pressure leads them to build up their experience of (for example) dissociation over time, and look back upon something that is far more powerful than it actually was at the time – a form of false memory. A dissociative episode could easily become ‘externalization’ in this way.

          Also, some are ‘faking it until they make it’, explicitly believing that such a thing is possible and claiming to have experieced it, but actually never having done so. This is complicated by the fact that they may be basing their faith on the ‘success stories’ of others, who are also faking it.

          Finally, there is good old human variation. you may simply not be prone to such an experience. That’s just as well, because compelling subjective exeriences like that seem to be a major motivation for some people to stick with the CofS or become an independent. (and I’m very glad you are here and not there).

          ‘Externalization’ is a claim that is comically easy to text (please tell me what object is on the table in the next room without entering it). The fact that nobody has ever even tried (to my knowledge) speaks to its credibility.

          • Mockingbird

            I see several issues. Some people will have the effect of suggestions plus imagination with altitude aka hypnosis produce guided imagery. The key difference is the altitude or transference makes the imagined experience seem authentic. Without the transference you distinguish imagination from experience.

            Social pressure can inspire lying.

            And dissociation as depersonalization has long been associated with the “I am not in my body, I am not here, this is not happening to me” feeling.

            Many victims of extreme trauma like rape or sexual abuse experience this. No magic OT powers here.

          • Mockingbird

            I am no expert in psychology but believe some individuals are less susceptible to certain expressions of dissociation. Reportedly some people simply cannot be hypnotized or experience exteriorization no matter how much auditing they receive. Reportedly Mary Sue Hubbard had a few hundred auditing techniques used on her and never went exterior.

            • I was once one of three people picked on by a stage hypnotist. The other two were friends, and we all came from completely different backgrounds. The performer did the induction, and I for one really, really tried – but absolutely nothing happened to any of us.

              The chap smoothly called called up another group, who went under immediately.

              We spent the rest of the evening wondering if we were doing bizarre things in response to keywords without even realising it. I mean – how would you know?

            • Mockingbird

              I would say a lot of study can go into looking at what makes hypnosis. The book Trances People Live describes hypnosis fairly well to me. I personally have no interest in getting hypnotized now.

            • Graham

              So. Last time we met you can’t remember what you did each time I said ‘chicken’? Really?

              A skilled stage hypnotist will warm the audience up with some kind of ‘filter’ exercise. Eg he/she gets the whole audience to clasp their hands together and gets ‘hypnotised’ into thinking they are glued together. Then he brings the whole audience out of the trance. In an audience of several hundred a few people (1% would give him five or so) still can’t ‘unglue’ their fingers. These he invites up onto the stage to “help” them. In reality what he’s done is pull up on stage the most suggestible 1% of his audience. Done like that it’s unlikely that cynics such as yourself would have been brought on stage.

              There’s obviously a parallel here with how Scientology recruitment works.

    • gtsix

      Thinking is never a trap. You are different than Jon. You “just” left the formal church. He spent time analyzing his why of getting involved and hooked. You’re still practicing, he’s not. Big difference those.

      When did you get involved? When did you leave? Were you only mission based, or did you goto an org? Saint Hill? Go to the ship? Don’t mind me prying, use Ignore tech if you want.

    • How can you not “be there” ?

      • pluvo

        Mentally drifting away, getting caught up in thought processes.

        • yeah! that’s what we where told, but in reality there was this Do not think of a red Cat or Don’t go exterior bla bla bal… The dissociation was installed firmly by that drill and bull-baiting

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “….. it took months to abandon the TR-0 stare (and the bizarre limitations that it puts upon perception – it is much better to scan the environment than to induce endless ganzfeld trips)….” Jon Atack, above

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_effect

    Another nugget of info, I’ve never read this before, excellent piece of new info for me!!

    • Mockingbird

      Here’s an article that sums up the objectionable parts of cults.

      The relational system of the traumatizing narcissist. By Daniel Shaw.

      http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-relational-system-of-the-traumatizing-narcissist

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Wow, that’s some article!

        Dumbing that down, a group that is built by such a narcissist is trouble, and the public should beware.

        Now, as an ex Scientologist, even today though, and even with me being a non-believer in the soul and thus there is never any fear on my part for being drawn to ever DO Scientology practises (past-lives crank therapy, “body-thetan” exorcism), I still would have to admit that the definition of “Scientology” and the subject of “Scientology” cannot just be the narcissist-cult-leader’s-totalitarian-human-rights-abusing operation.

        Scientology practices include the crank past-lives psuedo-quack-therapy and the “body-thetan” exorcism, and due to practitioners (Indie Scientologists) still doing those two practices today (pseudo-crank-therapy and the exorcism), that to a fuller view of what Scientology as a word means, it means to me, the core part of Scientology is NOT just the narcissit’s regulations totalitarianism Human Rights abusing aspect of the subject/word Scientology.

        That’s a problem that continues, and spreads to the general other problem of false hopes in the supernatural.

        But for sure Scientology, official Scientology, the long continuing evolution of official Scientology are due to the baggage of narcissist Hubbard’s massive bureaucratic regulations of keeping his organizations all going in his big laid out patterns in his unfortunately mentally damaged mind.

        But the Indie Scientologists, and anyone, can pick up 3 books, found on Amazon, for cheap, and do Scientology with another person, and skip the regulation totalitarinism organizations of Scientology. (No one should, though, for the reasons that they will just be befuddling their minds with fantasy and sometimes really bad mental messing.)

        • Mockingbird

          I have to agree the auditing itself even divorced from ethics and fair game is harmful. The Anderson report laid out a laundry list of reasons Scientology hurts minds.

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            Unbelievably good read even today, so worth the time to read the Australian Report again.

            • Mockingbird

              It really hits hard on so many levels.

  • A whole lot about $cientology was about hanging out back in the day. It was the social element that kept many people in, and the people who knew Elwrong personally were generally sucked in more thoroughly. The people I met who knew him early on, however, were more practical in their assessment of his lunacy. For those of us who never met him personally, it was oftne a long extraction because our entire social structure was mostly the cult.

    • Missionary Kid

      Many megachurches, I believe, operate the same way. They provide an all enveloping social structure that keeps people busy and interacting with others so much that they don’t have time to question or examine what they’re being taught.

      • gtsix

        And that is the first warning sign that so many ignore.

      • …nor opportunities for exposure to other perspectives. Outsiders become something to be ‘converted’ not people to listen to, because they may have interesting things to say.

        Other viewpoints are not only excluded but also presented as worldly temptation (or ‘entheta’) so that you don’t even think about alternative world views.

        • Missionary Kid

          ‘Zactly

      • Not any I’ve ever been around, but you might be talking about what a lot of groups do (such as network marketing) which is hang around each other a lot to reinforce the beliefs. I’ve been around a lot of denominations and even other religions and have never seen any group circle the wagons like $cientology – but then, I was never personally exposed to Jim Jones People’s Temple or the Branch Davidians.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “….I was alarmed to find that I had been following a pathological liar. A man who told us that the “road to truth” must be trod with “true steps” and that “honesty is sanity.” ….” Jon Atack, above

    For me, I forgave Hubbard and I had already forgiven all “Heaven” peddlers since I have been born into a world of humanity that forgives and believes in the supernatural “soul” saving free ticket to Heaven stuff peddling.

    Hubbard is preceded by human history’s soul/heaven/enlightenment peddling.

    I presumed his engineering fine-tuned regimented organizatons and chart to Spiritual Freedom would deliver what I for sure gullibly presumed was “real”, that the soul could eject out of the body and the body not die, as in other practices of the 20th century who promised the same.

    I bought into Scientology and Hubbard, and forgave Hubbard’s lack of credentials and egotism and crankness, thinking that if other human groups in history were adamently in agreement with the soul and soul abilities out of the body, that this must be something Hubbard’s Scientology is just a better system to step by step retrieve each person’s innate soul ablities and put these soul abilities back into a person’s own control once they’d stripped off their “engrams” and “body thetans”, LOL.

    As the anonymous young people so clearly observed, “Tom Cruise can’t fly” (meaning “soul-fly” out of his head, as Hubbard’s Scientology’s L Rundowns promise).

    • Mockingbird

      Tom Cruise can’t fly ! What a great title for a book on Scientology !

    • My signs read “Tom Cruise Can’t Fly Or Act”
      And I meant both literally.

      • Missionary Kid

        Actually, I believe that Cruise has some talent in acting, but he’s sunk to mediocrity because of his association with $cientology, which always emphasizes money over art.

        • Kim O’Brien

          everyone has talent in acting IMO 😉 just yesterday …i acted like i like my boss . I was brilliant 😉

          • Missionary Kid

            Did they catch you doing it and fire you?

            • Kim O’Brien

              no …but picture me being like ..super sweet and smiling a lot and saying things like ” wow ..that is a GREAT idea …i never thought of it like that . Can i get you a cup of coffee ? ”

              Oscar considered

            • Missionary Kid

              😀

          • FredEX2

            LOL 😆

    • Kim O’Brien

      is the idea of death so terrifying for some ppl …that they are willing to throw their actual life away in order to avoid it ? The story yesterday just screamed that to me . June is so afraid of death …that she is willing to ruin her actual life .

      • SarahDB

        It’s not just your death, it’s your total eternity and the fate of all mankind that you are saving…

        • Kim O’Brien

          by not seeing your kids ?

          • SarahDB

            I know, it’s crazy thinking and so sad 😭

            • Kim O’Brien

              you know what gets me ? my shock and confusion . I have been following this saga and this blog …longer than my marriage lasted …and i STILL seem to have the same questions and inability to grasp the answers . It still makes zero sense to me . I honestly can understand a suicide bomber more than scientologists . The motivation is much clearer . Ugh

            • SarahDB

              I was in a Buddhist cult for a while so I get the whole idea of doing good for peoplekind, we were bringing about world peace, but no disconnection piece, I have a hard time reconciling how a mother could disconnect from kids AND grandkids, hoping madly for grandkids someday!!

            • Bob

              Kim,
              Having been through it I know why diehard scientologists will disconnect from family and close friends and do anything to stay in. They truly believe that Hubbards path to immortality and the ability to retain their memories and personality and achieve OT powers, is the ONLY path.
              If they are barred from that path they are lost. They know they will revert to being a BT who loses all their memories and lives in a state of waking sleep. Clams are not so afraid of death. They are afraid of their next lifetime where they will forgot everything and get stuck on a lamp post with no volition of their own.
              Clubbard created the ultimate hell to scare the clams into sacrificing anything to stay on the bridge. Many religions have pulled the same number on their members. I think Hubbard is at the top of the list now for creating his evil quasi spiritual scam. I was royally f–ked up by it.
              Thank god for Tony. If I had not found his blog several years ago I would probably be dead now.

            • Kim O’Brien

              jesus Bob …that is really intense and terrifying . I know that we have gone a few rounds in the past …but please know that i am so so so glad that you are out . Here . And alive .

      • Mockingbird

        I have met many Scientologists who have the attitude that life as a one life animal is entirely meaningless.

        • Kim O’Brien

          considering the way they treat each other …i might think life is meaningless too . thus the suicides i bet

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        I was a full blown theoretical Hubbard expertise nut, and frankly the fear of “losing one’s eternity” falls flat and contradicts earlier Hubbard admissions that the soul CANNOT die, but the soul is ignorantly automatically eternal and that the soul doesn’t know the joke that they are eternal no matter what. And thus, these 1950s joking admissions about the soul’s ignorance of their eternal nature and the inevitably LONG LONG eternal future to come for all souls, Hubbard says it is supremely dumb of souls to worry!!!

        So, in expert all knowing all that Hubbard said, and really thinking “logicially” about Hubbard’s 1978 and 1979 (which is when these dire final round of scare tactics came out of Hubbard’s writings to scare up business, frankly, for the Purification Rundown peddling of that time, and also the dire scare tactcs of 1978-79 from Hubbard to scare staff into being more diligent in their staff training so they could do their jobs in the organizations so as to achieve Scientology’s goals or humanity would die off due to human nuttiness which supposedly Scientology’s efforts will combat and change), so if one knew the 1950s joking Hubbard’s comments that the soul is just a dummy unknowing of their autopilot eternal nature, then the Hubbard 1978-79 dire scare most recent comments are really indicative that Hubbard’s going mentally downhill himself and he’s forgotten his earlier 1950s comments that the soul can’t help but survive for eternity!

        So, for me, I think in terms of ALL Hubbard ever said, which I’ve unfortunately read so much it wastes my brain time today, I agree with your drift.

        Hubbard’s scare stuff even in context of all Hubbard wrote, the 1978-79 mentality of “losing one’s eternity” are in Hubbard’s world, even wrong.

        Hubbard has a scale of how “timeless” important his various writings are.

        The 78-79 scare tactics have unfortunately become dominant in the minds of the last 40 odd years.

        But the 1950s breezy minded Scientologists would laugh at the “you will lose your eternity” mindset.

        The 1950s Hubbard breezy “the soul is eternal, and is so dumb that the soul just doesn’t know this yet, the joke is on the poor soul that doesn’t know that the soul is inherently automatically eternal” freer concept.

        Delusion, all, to me, I’m hardcore atheist, but that’s the “expert” fuller Hubbard theoretical layout of Hubbard’s crap on this point.

      • joan nieman

        You have a good point there Kim.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    If James Joyce was writing about $cientology, would he have called it
    “A drop of the crater?”

    The keisaku or kyosaku, a thin wooden stick, is used in zazen
    meditation to alleviate drowsiness in the meditator.
    The $cientology version, introduced by the Cystic Mystic, Maitreya-Betraya,
    hi-tech as befits this modern $ciency practice, is the cattle-prod.
    Now, for a mere $4747.47, you can get your comma-free Golden Age of Cattle
    Prodding version (S&H $47.47)
    Batteries not included

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0e5a681529f2191d6fb37527013f78d8779e5a0fe96000b101e0074ae8b10a32.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/97bd20ef888b8567d4cfb6fc92914edbd2ad1b29bfa8d43d9227dd44fa83e22a.jpg

    • ze moo

      “Maitreya-Betraya” guffaw…..titter….belly laugh….

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    Today’s episode of Chris Shelton’s Sensibly Speaking Podcast with therapist Rachel Bernstein about narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, charisma, gaslighting, etc. is very interesting in my opinion and might be interesting to other Bunker readers as well.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2MjxK12Ws

  • ze moo

    One need not be ‘gullible’ to be sucked into any ‘cult’. People join up into shared lunacy for all sorts of reasons.

    Those born in, are the most vulnerable. Having known nothing but the ‘cult’, they are the most easily indoctrinated. It doesn’t matter if it’s $cientology, National Socialism or American national party politics, what you learned at your mammy’s knee is what will probably stick with you.

    $cientology, like any group that needs converts, tries to sell itself in any way that gains converts. $cientology used to be good at that sucking in. Lron built a cadre that could find your ‘ruin’ and promise to fix that ‘ruin’. That is a powerful selling point. One need not be ‘gullible’ to succumb to that sales pitch. One only needs to have hopes and aspirations that are unmet. Giving your attention and trust to any selling scheme is what makes America great. Just ask General Motors or Apple or Microsoft, or any Trump voter.

    Lron’s feet of clay has been documented by many. Jon’s book is one of the best in that regard. And regard, Jon Atack should have.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Yes, I agree. But I am going to phrase it differently.

    A cousin, an ex-Scientologist, told me that she has become “enlightened”. The scuttlebutt in the family is that this was done with the aid of a guru, a recollection of what was good in Scientology, and picking and choosing from various other spiritual disciplines. I have to be skeptical. I also think that she should know better having been cleared by Scientology once in her life.

    Completely independent of this and without my urging, another member of the clan, this one married to a cousin, told me that he had now answered all the spiritual questions he wanted answered. I didn’t enquire how, but I took it to be from a lifetime of seeking. I responded that my answer was self-doubt. He then told me what was wrong with that but I paid no attention, having already judged him unfit to think clearly in such matters.

    So, my answer to spiritual freedom is understanding that you will never reach it but you can strive in that direction. We are not reflections of God or godlike creatures, unless the reflection is in a funhouse mirror. We are more like pigs or squirrels and there is only so far we can go in understanding ourselves and our relation to the eternal. Those who tell us that they have uncovered that are suckers or conmen and to be avoided.

    So throw away that book by David Hume. Remember Martin Heidegger through the Monte Python skit. Don’t waste your time with Sorin Kierkegaard. I just gave you all you need with a few short paragraphs. My very own gift to humanity.

    • Jeb Burton

      I am glad I’m too stupid to seek spiritual enlightenment. I’m more concerned if the Bucs can win Sunday. Seems like the more you seek, the more fucked up you are. But hey, whatever works for you. Maybe try taking a walk in the woods, or going out on the water. Seems to work for me. No Guru or Auditor required.

      • kemist

        Welcome to my club.

        Never cared much about “spiritual” stuff. When people ask me about it, I’ll just give them a blank stare. It’s meaningless to me. My philosophy is, shit happens, and it does not mean anything special for us hairless apes, so it’s pointless to look for it. If that makes me stupid or a muggle or whatever, then there you go. I don’t give a shit.

        Give me ATV rides and beers with friends, painting, playing with my nieces and nephew, reading a good book, playing a nice video game, and, weirdly, math, and I’m a happy camper.

        • Jeb Burton

          Yeah I hear you. A dolphin surfing on the wake bow of my boat is about all the spiritual fulfillment that I need. And math. Just kidding. That is weird.

    • ze moo

      Kierkegaard, the preferred deodorant for sweaty Danish philosophers.

      • LongtimeLurker

        How does this not have more upvotes?

  • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

    Thanks Jon Atack, good to read.
    I never did love Hubbard, but did like his tech or at least thought helpful to me. The first time I heard the ‘hip. hip’ I cringed, reminded me of Hitler. The tech turned nasty in the use of the other tech, like there was two techs. One to help and one to control utterly with devastation.

  • Mockingbird

    Here’s a description of depersonalization, which is a form of dissociation.

    Depersonalization:
    Strange but Harmless

    Depersonalization, (also called derealization), is one of the many symptoms of a panic attack. Of all the panic symptoms, it’s probably the hardest to describe, or even recognize as a symptom. For this reason, it can be quite disturbing to people who experience it, even though it is completely harmless.

    Depersonalization is a combination of physical sensations, emotions, and thoughts which lead you to feel so disengaged from your surroundings that you wonder whether or not you’re actually in your body. People experiencing this symptom may fear that they’re actually someplace else, watching their body sleepwalk through life while they float around in some kind of spirit world.

    A patient of mine once described an experience she had while riding in the back seat of a car with several friends. She had become detached from the conversation, felt more and more removed from what was going on, and was stricken with a panic attack during which she wondered if she were still in the car, or if she had somehow left her body and was watching from the sidewalk. She knew the thought was ludicrous, but continued to think about it anyway, and feared that she might never get reconnected to herself again.

    People have a variety of reactions to depersonalization, but a common theme is that they are losing touch with reality, and they fear they will lose it for good. Here are some descriptions of the derealization experience I have received from readers and patients.

    How People Describe Depersonalization

    Sally:
    If I have to interact with people for too long, especially when I have to defend an issue, this is what starts to happen:

    I start to get tunnel vision. My ears start burning. My face gets hot. The world seems to drop away – I am solely in this situation. I lose track of what I’m saying. I am in complete “unreal” mode and don’t know where I am.

    Elaine:
    In situations where I don’t feel part of the group, I feel isolated. It’s a feeling of not being in control, or of not feeling like I’m part of the situation. I tend to feel like I need to have control of all situations, so when I feel like I don’t have control, I feel uncomfortable. I actually feel like I’m not there.

    John:
    For me, depersonalization means that I suddenly feel as though I am “not real” – that feeling of “Is this me? Am I myself? Or, is this all a dream?” It is a bizarre feeling. Sometimes I am looking at myself from the outside, other times I get confused as to whether or not I am really thinking the thoughts that I am thinking…if I really keep concentrating on something that has been bothering me, or am worrying about things that are not happening at the present time, I tend to suddenly slip into this mode. I usually try to snap out of it and do something – make a phone call, take a walk, anything to “bring me back” to reality.

    Margaret:
    If I’m with friends, I find my vision altering suddenly. They will seem almost flat and two-dimensional, as do my surroundings. I feel like a “spectator”, as if there is a definite distance between me and my surroundings. I often feel as if I’m in a dream…on autopilot. I find it a lot easier to deal with my physical symptoms.

    Suzanne:
    I always feel like I am not 100% here. I have developed a persona on top of this which allows me to interact, but in my basic self I am very aloof. I have spent the majority of my life disconnected…and keep waiting for the moment when I will be part of the world again.

    I think there are three useful questions to ask about depersonalization.

    What Does it Mean?

    It means the same thing as any other panic symptom. It means “I’m afraid! I’m having a panic attack!”

    However weird it feels, it has nothing to do with “losing control”.

    All panic symptoms mean the same thing, even though the symptoms differ from each other. Some are physical sensations; some are emotions; some are thoughts. But in the end, they all mean the same thing: I’m scared. They’re different ways of experiencing the same reaction.

    Why Does it Happen?

    Depersonalization seems to occur when you have become less involved with what’s going on around you, especially the people around you, and become preoccupied with your own thoughts. These are typically not thoughts about your immediate surroundings, but thoughts of other people, times and places. The less energy and attention you bring to your immediate circumstances, the more your thoughts wander toward ideas that can only happen in your imagination.

    What Should I Do?

    First and foremost, remember that the experience of depersonalization is all discomfort, not danger. Your job, while experiencing derealization, is to see if you can make yourself a little more comfortable while waiting for it to end. If you just ride it out, nothing terrible will happen.

    The best way to relieve the discomfort of depersonalization is to follow the AWARE sequence of coping steps for a panic attack.

    You can specifically address the symptom of depersonalization as you follow the AWARE steps by emphasizing the following points:

    1. Acknowledge and accept the symptom. Remind yourself that it is a source of discomfort, but not danger.

    2. Return your attention to the immediate environment, rather than your thoughts of other times and places. Don’t argue with your thoughts, just refocus your attention.

    3. Become more actively engaged with the people, activities, and objects immediately around you. Get back into the conversation and activities that the others are involved in. I think you’ll find that the odd feelings lessen as you get more involved in your present surroundings.

    From

    http://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/dissociative-identity-disorder/dissociative-disorders-types-list/

  • SarahDB

    I think one reason cults who offer answers are enticing to young people is that they are still very engaged in “black and white thinking” and are attracted by someone or some group that claims to have answers in this large and intimidating world they are trying to figure out. I was in a buddhist cult here in the US for a good protion of my young adulthood, I think that’s one reason I’m drawn to this site. I really wanted to believe we were acheiving world peace one convert at a time!

    Edited for typo

    • Noms yo yo dingo crow? Not Yoko’s wenge bureau? Nam oh no vets day bro? My business partner was ex Sokka Gakkai and we’d sit around the studio and make up alternate versions of Suck a Cop Guy chants. She was pretty into the group for about five years just out of college.

      • SarahDB

        That was it, Nam myoho renge kyo!

  • Hana Eltringham Whitfield

    Thank you again, Jon. And spot on!

    • cinfrance

      …. yet again Jon!

  • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

    About gullibility. Yes I was, and still am to a degree, always learning. That’s what happens to a simple person who trusts to much. Now I quickly discover and correct truth and survive much better, thanks to letting myself be fooled and ripped apart.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Also you have a tough little tribe around you who love you and want nothing from you but your companionship.

      • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

        Sure do, and I’m thankful to have them and I do trust them as my best friends. You’re in that tribe darlin’ sweet Andrea! xx

        • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

          John McGhee and I are your European kids! We love you 🙂

          • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

            YES! I love to adopt wonderful people and it makes me a Ma/Mama. Y’all make me so happy. I love you too! 🙂

      • Besides, we’re all rolling in that sweet, sweet Pharma Cash, why would we want Dee’s?

        • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

          Truth 😀

    • Kim O’Brien

      you trust ppl . the fact that a lot of ppl are not worthy of it …is not a reflection on you . you are just too nice to think that everyone is a lying sack of shit . it is a nice trait …there are just too many lying sacks of shit

      • Jeb Burton

        I am the guy who thinks all salesmen, errr salespersons, are getting one over on me. I had 6 estimates on a new air conditioner because I thought they were all full of shit. They were, but all were in a few hundred bucks of each other.

        • Kim O’Brien

          yeah but the air conditioner actually exists .

          • Jeb Burton

            One would hope.

      • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

        Laugh of the day….. thank you Kim! I keep finding that out, even after so many years. A nice trait which I watch closely now. Hahaha. xx

        • Kim O’Brien

          your trust is a fine jewel …. it is valuable . hand it out to ppl who can wear it well and take care of it 😉

          • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

            Lovely, just lovely! 😉 I hear ya and thanks again Kim. I hear you’re a wonderful gal in person. <3

            • Kim O’Brien

              it’s a lie . don’t be so gullible 😉

              hope to meet you in Denver next year . I am gonna get you stoned and take you out for a nice hike …. 🙂

            • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

              Now both those things I haven’t done in long time. Would absolutely love it!
              Altho, sorry to say I won’t be coming there to see you. Hey, I trust Baby’s judgement, hahaha. I hope she will be there to represent those of us who can’t make it.

    • Jenyfurrrrr

      What Kim said!!! Sadly evil people and organizations will sometimes exploit one’s gifts. The trick is not to let them win by changing your beautiful heart. Just guard it, because it’s (& you are…) valuable!

      • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

        Thank you Jenyfir. Hadn’t thought of it that way but guess I did, tho involved with the lies, I got out finally, of the cult clutch mind set. True to my own heart and see others who are real and true.

        • Jenyfurrrrr

          …which is what makes you so special & encouraging to so many! BTW – hope Baby’s still feeling better. Sounded like you guys had a seriously fun weekend!

          • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

            Thanks. We had a terrific fun time. Ya know after any vacation, one has to store up the energy again and we are fall fine. Baby is on a schedule she needs, me too!

  • Mockingbird

    Did someone say gullible ? Once that princess sets up my bank accounts I will finance the gullibility investigation fund. After I buy that bridge with the double cross…what could go wrong ?

  • Mockingbird

    I trust people too much to worry about gullibility silly !

  • Kim O’Brien

    OT ….but Dice put up aeger’s photos from last year at HowdyCon . Just go to the web site and in the top right ..there is a HowdyCon 2016 tab . The photos are great ….and there is one with Tony and the huge photo of him . What a great cult leader

    • LongtimeLurker

      I look forward to seeing images of the last awesome thing I missed.

      …rrsssfffrrssn…

      • Kim O’Brien

        man up and sell a kidney 😉

        • LongtimeLurker

          Wait…can I live with none?

          • Kim O’Brien

            ok …how bout a lung ? SOMETHING . just get out on the streets and shake your ass like marky mark . How hard is it to get to the other side of the planet ?? you are gonna miss the orgy . AGAIN

            • LongtimeLurker

              I’m on it!

            • sell your brain as never used. I know someone who could use one!

            • LongtimeLurker

              One of our Twitter “friends”?

            • yes! lets sell him a bird brain as the real thing!

            • scientorgy? i didn’t knew that

          • Draco

            A lobe from your liver should bring in a fair amount. And if you hop to it, you have 6 months to recover before howdycon.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Maybe I should just sell a bunch of that stuff inside me.

              I could have spending money for the trip!

              And buy that heated toilet seat I’ve always wanted.

            • Wrong organ to sell before HowdyCon.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Direct link;

      https://www.flickr.com/photos/132611082@N08/sets/72157669794817636

      I laugh every time I see the HowdyCon motto;
      “Anyone who meets up with someone they know from the Internet is an idiot – Captain Howdy”

      Brilliant idea, whoever that was.

    • April

      What are you talking about. Tony is a terrible cult leader.
      I have to think far too much and make too many decisions for myself. I have all this extra time and money that I don’t know what to do with.

      • LongtimeLurker

        The fact that you two don’t agree is proof that you’re right.

        Or she is…

        …darn…

    • K2P2(KnitNut)

      Hi Kim! Went and took a look at the pictures. Made me remember what a fun time and great experience HowdyCon 2016 was for me. 🙂 Don’t know if I will be able to make it to Denver, but we will see. BTW -Good job on the website. Hug!

      • Kim O’Brien

        please try to make it !! p.s. Dice did the web site ..but he lets me boss him around 😉

  • ithilien

    previous posts show i am in agreement with Jon. The participants in scientology are a self selected response group. (Those raised in sci are excluded) Scientology appealed to them because they lacked critical ( and critically important) thinking skills. Yes they were and as he says still are gullible.

    This is why i often wondered why scientology doesnt actually use real psych tests in its first meetings with would be scis, you can use real psych tests to measure this personality aspect, and therefore sci could go right for their target audience and not have to mess around with wannabes who eventually bail. If sci was smart enough to know psych tests actually work, they could get a whole lot of information for their folders before the first auditing session.

    There are also those who think sci is a way to a career or way to make money, selling the scam as independent auditors, running a mission or getting kickbacks on donations. Multi level marketing scam.

    But jon forgets the second aspect of what makes a good sci…a need to be superior. To know more, to be an elitist. If you have gullibilty underlying a real need to be seen as or to become elitist you have the makings of a real scientologist.

    • Mockingbird

      You imply someone isn’t gullible. Who is this and how have they attained this superhuman state ? And regarding critical thinking skills, what exactly do you consider those to be ? Please be thorough in your description. I am interested in seeing which particular skills you mean.

      • Bobby Tolberto AKA TDA

        Avenger’s First Law is that people tell you what you want to hear.

        • Mockingbird

          Geez, people must think I want to hear “go fuck yourself” a lot. 😂😂😂😂

          • Bobby Tolberto AKA TDA

            Better to have the smoke blown in your face than up your……….

            👽🐡☢☣

            • Mockingbird

              That’s an interesting way to put it. I don’t enjoy being attacked or insulted or experiencing character assassination as I have had all of them occur as probably most people do. But I would prefer to be openly disagreed with to covertly cut down and deceived to my face.

    • Mockingbird

      I think you may want to review the routes into Scientology. Lots of them involve acts described as helping drug addicts, criminals to reform, human rights groups, communities and other humanitarian efforts. Long before you get into the elite Sea Org you usually are subject to social pressure, consistency, obedience to authority and other persuasion methods described in Robert Cialdini’s book Influence.

      So that elitism claim may not hold up as a make break qualifier for entering Scientology.

    • kemist

      They don’t need to understand how it works, and in most cases I don’t think they’d remain in there after understanding how it works.

      One of the things most cult exit therapists do is explain to the ex-cult member how they were “hacked”. To correctly interpret those tests, they’d need to understand the theory behind them, and that theory tells them exactly how they became trapped.

      The self selection works quite well without the selectors being told the way the selection works. It can easily be independantly discovered without designing it on purpose by someone who has no ethical restrictions about manipulating and lying to people.

      It’s a bit like pretty much all narcissists out there practice random reward pattern to make emotional addicts out of their mates, without having any idea whatsoever of the theory behind it. They all stumbled on it eventually, because it works.

    • I’ve never seen any evidence that Scientologists are any different from the general population. The only thing that a significant group of them share is that they had the extraordinary bad fortune to encounter Scientology’s manipulative pitch at a rare moment when they were vulnerable to it.

      Also, I think you overestimate the power of ‘psych tests’. They are rough guides to personality attributes, not a means to manipulate people into sticking with an abusive organisation.

      Finally, critical thinking skills are irrelevant if you do not deploy them, and make decisions on an emotional basis, as we often do (and sometimes should). “Romeo and Juliet” would have been a very different play if all of the characters had carefully considered their every action on a rational basis. Real life is just not like that.

    • kemist

      Another thing : while psychological tests of cult members tend towards a common personality (the “cult persona” created by the process of “cloning”), their personalities before joining the cult are all across the board and no different from those of the general population.

      It’s reassuring to tell ourselves that our minds cannot be hacked like those of these people, but I’m afraid it’s not true. Cults exploit weaknesses common to all human minds, and it’s often precise circumstances that make you vulnerable.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      “… i often wondered why scientology doesnt actually use real psych tests
      in its first meetings with would be scis, you can use real psych tests
      to measure this personality aspect, and therefore sci could go right for
      their target audience and not have to mess around with wannabes who
      eventually bail.”

      There you go again, trying to get all logical and analytical on us 😉 Elron came up with the very descriptive phrase, “stuck in an incident,” but he and all of $cn theory are stuck in an era – the late 40’s and 50’s. For all his vast powers of whole track recall, going back billions and billions of years, Elron’s prescience for the future sucked big time. Not only did he not foresee the rise of the internet, but he couldn’t even conceive of anything more technologically advanced than the DC-8 for Lord Xenu to have used as transport spaceships in carrying out his galactic Final Solution plan. So, the fact that he never updated his choice of personality test instruments isn’t surprising to me, because he never updated anything else in $cn, based on advances in any of the other scientific fields that he “borrowed” from either.

      And even after his demise, the infallible Word of Elron was completely frozen in time and branded on the brains of all who became $cilons (“KSW or else!”). You can not change a word of it because that would be an act of treason and betrayal of all humankind for the next umpteen billion years! Only lil davey can change The Holy Tech, and only then by supposedly “correcting the mistakes” that transcribers made (e.g., the war on semi-colons) in order to make The Tech 100% standarder. Just as it is for the most rabidly zealous fundamentalist Christian bible thumpers, every single word of the scriptures handed down by Elron are understood to be literally true and never to be altered, because to do so would be to risk losing the only “white-taped path” out of the “trap” which all of us (including our stowaway BTs) have been stuck in for millions upon millions of years.

      That same rigid inflexibility and resolute determination to never question or admit that (gulp) Elron could have been wrong in a major way is exactly what’s taking $cn down at this very moment. Elron prohibited the use of the words, “Fair Game,” but not the practice of targeting the perceived enemies of $cn for destruction by whatever means necessary, thinking that would take care of publicity flap it had caused. It didn’t, and now the cumulative weight of $cn’s crimes and abuses in targeting everyone and their pets who oppose the cherch or have been victimized by it has truly come back to haunt the cult.

      Yet, despite the obviousness of his errors and the damage that’s it’s done to the cherch’s reputation, the cult is explicitly required to never alter course, admit error or do anything other than what it’s always done, despite the fact that it’s destroying the cherch’s public image faster than Tom Tom can find a couch to jump on.

      Rather than ensuring that $cn would last forever, Elron guaranteed its fall by failing to provide any mechanism by which it could change and adapt…and given the fact that it’s a killer cult which utilizes very sophisticated mind control techniques, that’s a very good thing indeed!

  • WhatWall

    John Atack: “Thirty years ago, a former Commodore’s Messenger told me that the great thing was that we would never be tricked again. I told him that the great thing is that I know I’m gullible – and that makes me more cautious.”

    Amen! Perhaps there should be a Gullibles Anonymous where we get together and share our personal stories of gullibility. “My name is _______ and I am gullible!”

    As a direct result of my Scientology experience I am willing to question just about everything I know about the mind, religion, history, politics, science and economics. As I become better at it, critical thinking has become my constant companion. I probably won’t be able to finish reading the books I currently possess before I die. I’ve become more interested in discerning underlying principles than debating facts.

    It’s difficult for me to be very critical of others when I remember my gullibility.

    Post-Scientology, my life is a much more fascinating and wonderful experience.

    • gullible.com – best scam ever!

      • Draco

        I’m not clicking on that…

        • Graham

          Well spotted. Why don’t you click on my site instead? Iamdefinitelynotgullible.com

          • Draco

            Uh uh…

        • lol it’s safe and for sale, funny enough!

  • Shayne

    Has anything been written about all of L. Ron Hubbard’s children? Not sure if it’s true but I’ve read that he had 7 kids, from 3 different wives. And that L.Ron Jr. left Scientology & has since passed away. What became of the other 6?

    • LongtimeLurker
      • how did you do that?

        • April

          He’s a freakin wizard.

          • and just in 5 minutes …. Envy!

        • LongtimeLurker

          2 new tabs, tonyortega + Hubbard children and tonyortega + Ron children, cuttity-paste and Bob’s your aunty’s husband.

          Comes from too many years spent researching crap (not that Tony falls into that category).

          Also, I’m magic.

      • Shayne

        Awesome. Thank you!

        • LongtimeLurker

          Pleasure.

          I would have also given you a straight up numbers answer, but I blanked. Then other commenters did it anyway.

    • gtsix

      7 kids by 3 wives.

      Son and daughter by first wife, now passed.
      Daughter by second wife, has no involvement.
      2 daughters, 2 sons by 3rd wife. 1 son dead, other still alive, doesn’t speak on the subject. 1 daughter out of church, doesn’t speak on the subject. First daughter by a 3rd wife, still in, was recently seen at IAS gala in england.

      • Graham

        Of course Hubbard “never had a second wife” as we can clearly hear him lying [sorry: stating] at the 13:20 point on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI&playnext=1&list=PLBB75E94C8D3EC0BD

        • gtsix

          Nope, somehow Mr big being had a first and a third. Math is hard. (Do you lot say maths are hard?)

          • LongtimeLurker

            Australians say “math is hard” because we’ve heard it so many times in US media.

            Every other time we say “maths”.

            ps – well done for awareness of terminology.

            • gtsix

              Well… I was married to an angleman for 5 years, my best friend is a brit, and ive been following english football for 15 years, so I’ve had some experience with the tea drinking colonizers and their way with a phrase.

              I like saying maths, because it is true, there is more than one. And I adore the way the english say aluminum. Going on holiday sounds nicer than taking a vacation. But if you say schedule like a ponce posh twat, I’ll give you a Belfast kiss faster than a scouser can half inch your tyres.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Noice!

            • Draco

              “But if you say schedule like a ponce posh twat”
              As in shedule? That’s how we pronounce it here 😀

            • gtsix

              Oh, aussies, kiwis, afrikaners and brits can… it’s your language. But if I hear it from a septic…. NO. I do say “going to the loo”… because it sounds nicer… and my german grandfather hated the word bathroom “I’m not taking a bath, I’m using the toilet. Call it the toilet!”

            • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

              Haha!

            • Graham

              Same for us Brits.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Thought so.

        • cinfrance

          That AMAZING video!

    • Robert Eckert

      L. Ron Jr. “Nibs” is a fascinating saga, and his grandson Jamie has helped to fill in some of it. His sister Katie (only other child by Polly Grubb) is an enigma: expressed loyalty to her father when interviewed during an FDA investigation which Tony had some documentation on, apparently got a little money out of the will and did not contest anything; she is no longer alive but otherwise there is very little info about her. Alexis, from the bigamous marriage to Sara (Ron had not divorced Polly yet), was an awful story: Ron kidnapped her as a baby to Cuba and told Sara he would chop the baby in pieces if she did not drop her divorce action; years later she tracked him down and he insisted she wasn’t even his child; there is some info in Tony’s book (Unbreakable Miss Lovely) when Paulette interacted with her and Nibs. Quentin, the eldest by Mary Sue, famously committed suicide (if it was suicide). Diana is still a captive at Int Base, having lost her husband and child. Suzette was tormented by Miscavige for years but eventually escaped. Arthur (also called “Archie”) is an artist who sometimes paints in blood, uses his middle name “Conway” instead of “Hubbard” and briefly mentions on his website that he absolutely does not want to talk about the Scientology connection.

      • Shayne

        Wow!! The crazy stories born of this organization are endless. Leah Remini could keep her documentary going for years & hardly scratch the surface.

    • Tony Ortega

      To Polly Grubb: L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (1934-1991) and Kay Gillespie (1936-2010)
      To Sara Northrup: Alexis (b. 1950, not involved in Scientology, not talking publicly)
      To Mary Sue Whipp: Diana (b. 1952, still in the Sea Org, lives at Int Base near Hemet, CA)
      — Quentin (1954-1976)
      — Suzette (b. 1955, out of the church, lives in LA, not talking publicly)
      — Arthur (b. 1958, out of the church, lives in LA, not talking publicly)

      • April Moonlight

        where is hubbard’s grand-daughter roanne horwich these days? didnt she leave the hemet int base just after ron miscavige senior did?

        • Robert Eckert

          Yes, but has still not spoken out as far as we have heard.

    • Graham

      His great-grandson Jamie DeWolf is a performance artist and a vocal critic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciupsqkLLkQ

  • Mockingbird

    Scientology enlightens wallets and clears bank accounts. It may exteriorize all your cash.

    • lol

    • April

      The only thing that works in CO$ and they don’t even advertise it.

      • Mockingbird

        Total freedom from wealth.

  • deadmalldollx

    The Church of Cognitive Dissonance

    • Scott H

      Absolutely balls on.

  • April

    Jon said, “Scientology and Dianetics are nothing more than an elaborate scam, purposefully designed to ameliorate Ronald Hubbard’s desperate self-loathing.”

    Also designed to generate lots and lots of cash for him. LRH was desperate for cash.
    And to “smash” his name into history. Although it could be argued this is related to the “desperate self-loathing.”

  • nottrue
  • Kim O’Brien

    OK ..well …here is one for ” gullible ”

    Marty put up a post yesterday and it is about pity or something . He just cuts and pastes stuff from someone else’s book . not 1 comment .

    who is gonna be the first one to comment i wonder ?

    • Tony Ortega

      No doubt many have. Question is, when is Marty going to let any of them through.

      Is this one aimed at Rinder? Timing suggests so.

      • Kim O’Brien

        well ..Marty is an asshole . At least he is consistent

      • gtsix

        Yes. That was my very first thought: he has taken his shot at Rinder, and in the most childish way possible. Jealousy, pure jealousy.

      • pluvo

        In “My Scn Movie” Marty was showing a pity play par excellence himself instead of facing up to Louis Theroux making the point that he was doing the same as the Scios who attacked him.

        Mike Rinder was showing honest remorse and has publicly apologized. He has more support than ever before. Marty missed that chance … and instead was demonstrating how beneath him the ‘anti-Scio-cult’ is, driving away those who supported him for years.

      • Harmless Weirdo

        Whoever it’s aimed at, I had a flashback to a childhood of dealing with my father, the Narcissist, who woluld impart some obviously meaningful chunk of information without explaining why–we were supposed to figure out its meaning ourselves. And when we came to the wrong (but logical!) conclusion, we were idiots for not getting the message he intended (which was rarely logical).

        (For any Arrested Development fans, think, “There’s money in the banana stand.” That episode sums it up.)

      • April

        I didn’t get a sense of “pity me” at all from Mike Rinder’s episode of Leah’s show. What I got from it was “let’s stop this abusive organization that mercilessly fucks with people’s lives.”

      • GrangerFX

        I did pity Marty when I watched “My Scientology Movie” and I mean that in genuine way. I can’t even imagine what it would be like having CoS goons show up at my door, follow me wherever I go, harass my wife, try to get me fired from any job I was able to get and finally go after my children. It would make me crazy. In fact Marty seems positively sane considering what he has gone though. This is not support for Marty or what he posts. It is simple compassion.

        • I agree.

          However, we have to remember that this is a man who did worse things to others when he was Witchfinder General of the CofS and still remains silent about his part in covering up the death of Lisa McPherson.

          He seems to believe he is always the smartest man in the room and still expects his ‘knowledge’ to be deferred to. He’s his own worst enemy.

          • GrangerFX

            True but consider this: He has no one to turn to. Everyone hates him and when he thinks about what he did while he was in the cult he must hate himself. The CoS has achieved a level of personal destruction that would make the KGB proud.

            • I admire Mike Rinder, who has admitted that he did terrible things as part of Scientology, has now rejected it, and it trying to make amends.

              Marty was rejected by Scientology. He still seems to believe not only that Scientology itself is valid, but also that he is a ‘technical expert’ who can make it work. In his mind, he is the keeper of the ‘true faith’.

              This emerged pretty clearly in his interactions with Louis Theroux, where he was cooperative (even enthusiastic) for only as long as he was in control. When valid questions were put to him he totally failed to engage, and became petulant.

              This, in fact, was the major flaw in the film – we didn’t really know very much more about Marty’s mindset at the end that we had at the beginning – only that he thought everyone should embrace ‘the tech’ once it was demonstrated to them (and if they didn’t there was something wrong with them).

              In a way, I hope that he has sold out to Scientology, someone else is writing his blog, and he has put it all behind him to concentrate on a fulfilling life with his family. I truly wish the man well.

              He has done nothing to me, and I certainly don’t hate him. We have all made mistakes. The test of our character is how we acknowledge them and what we do to make amends. Marty’s problem is that he can’t seem to surrender the ‘status’ he once had in the CofS, which is bound up with Scientology. As long as he holds to the faith, he is not going to be able to move on.

              As I said above, he is his own worst enemy. He cannot put a decades-old argument behind him, and his pronouncements are becoming steadily more cryptic and irrational. When I read his latest puzzling post, I worry for the man, too.

              To my mind, this latest post is another in his campaign against his imagined ‘anti-Scientology cult’ attacking Rinder, via commentators here and elsewhere, who have recommended “The Psychopath Next Door” (which, for the record, strikes as somewhat superficial) by using it against them. That’s pretty much Scientology SOP.

              So far he has let 26 comments through, several of which disagree with him so subtly that he hasn’t spotted it.

    • LongtimeLurker

      No way?

      I thought he was gone for good.

      I’m gonna go there and repeatedly comment “Miscavige has your balls in a box on his desk” just so Marty has to read it hundreds of times while not letting it through.

    • he does take a lot of credit about being the first. The internet and that book was here long before him

      • LongtimeLurker

        The first ex who was that high-up and spoke out. A little bit. For a while. Then stopped.

        I’ll give him that. But other than that he’s delusional.

        • Ha… not really! all this outspokeness started long before him. if you don’t mind he he

        • gtsix

          You cant. Doing so would ignore Hana, RVY and the entire LMP Trust. He can’t even claim FIRST. Because he wasn’t.

          • LongtimeLurker

            Wait, but he’s the highest ranking ex (who’s come out “against” the church) isn’t he?

            I mean I know the ranks are ludicrous and unrelated, but…

            I’m not trying to build him up, just get it straight. I was never a fan (although I didn’t call it like Todd did).

            • gtsix

              Don’t know, probably. I think RVY was more tech side, not RTC. And Hana was preRTC. He did a lot of good, got a lot of people to look and question and leave. There is no denying that. And he was harassed in ways I cannot imagine.

              That was then, this is now.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Yeah, that was all I was trying to say, first re the high rank thing. Not actually even close to first.

              And yes to the then / now.

            • MarcabExpat

              I think Hana would way outrank him but she wasn’t around for this era. Marty and Mike are the two highest-ranking people to run away from DM personally, if you want to put it that way.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Really? I’m stupid, I didn’t realise Hana was that high.

              So Marty never even had that.

              What a gimp.

            • MarcabExpat

              Stop it, you’re never stupid. It really just depends how you judge it, I guess. There was so much reorganization between Hana’s and Marty’s times. Marty, with his job description, definitely had more power over other people in his day than Hana had in hers. But Hana was LRH’s hand-picked, closely trained right-hand faithful servant who saw more than anyone except the Messengers. Her defection at the time was shocking.

              I bet it digs at Marty that he doesn’t automatically get the same moral respect that someone like Hana does. She is an unimpeachable witness who has never changed her story; Marty has flushed his credibility down the toilet.

              But it’s more than that; their personalities couldn’t be more different. Hana’s well-known for being compassionate and putting herself on the line for the well-being of others, whereas Marty is just a little too proud of how good he was at being the Big Bully. Mike Rinder acknowledges bluntly that he was an enforcer too, but you can tell he’s ashamed of it.

              My wild speculation is that Marty’s new “enemy” is not DM but Rinder, because Mike’s winning the Famous Ex-Member Game while Marty’s thrown all his chips away. Even if he does turn out to have been on some double-agent style mission (which he hinted at a long while back now), a lot of people are never going to trust him again no matter what he does. So even if he’s the Severus Snape of Scientology, he’s screwed.

            • LongtimeLurker

              That was interesting, thanks M.E.

              He is / was proud of the bullying, isn’t he? Just weird.

            • MarcabExpat

              It does seem as though he has to cling to it as his main claim to fame, doesn’t it? He joined up as a young man, doesn’t have anything else to show for his life, and it’s a heinous backstory, but hey, he made it all the way to the top!

              I really can’t figure Marty out. He’s harder to suss than the other well-known exes. Most of them have figured out that actually publicly fighting back against Scientology is going to come at major personal sacrifice, so when they speak out, there’s a certain tone. Or else, you can see traces of the damage that’s been inflicted. With Marty, the first thing you notice is the ego. Not that there’s no humanity there, far from it. But along with all the stories he’s telling, I never stop hearing this undertone of I can’t believe Dave beat me at this game!

              It occurs to me that if, while he was still in, anything had happened to DM, Marty would have been, in some ways, ideally positioned to take over. Wonder what the Cherch under Rathbun would have looked like?

            • LongtimeLurker

              Good question. It’s probable I guess, that the structure of the church and the contents of its doctrine are so toxic and twisted that no matter who’s nominally in charge, it will always pretty much be “Scientology”.

              Having said that, I think there’s a bunch of stuff (less human contact at Orgs, less focus on “quality” auditors, the Ideal Org BS, the never-ending fundraising for renovations and property purchases, etc) that comes from Miscavige’s specific sociopathy, and his distrust and dislike of normal human interaction.

              Arguably under Marty all that would be less prevalent, and the focus elsewhere.

              But there might be more staff on staff beatings in the Orgs.

              And open mic spoken word every lunch time.

            • MarcabExpat

              Killer closing line there, mate 🙂

              Totally agree with your assessment. It could never be normal as long as “the tech” is the law. But Marty’s pathology differs from DM’s just as DM’s did from LRH’s, and it’s an interesting thought experiment to wonder how it would evolve. I don’t see him as a sociopath like DM and LRH, just a guy with issues. And, alas, a gift for ruthlessness.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Good point. I over rely on “sociopath”.

              Yes it would be a very different mess under Marty.

              I just remembered I commented over at Whining On Up a Little Louder.

              I need to go check that he didn’t let it through (I thanked him in advance for his censorship).

            • MarcabExpat

              You made it! You made it in! You are hereby Highly Commended.

              Though I have to say I think so far Dio’s comment takes the cake for sheer scientolicity.

            • LongtimeLurker

              What? Be right back.

            • MarcabExpat

              I await your return with an anticipatory snickersnort.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Aww…he didn’t publish my comment calling out his hypocrisy for living his whole life as a “pity party” then having the gall to post about pity partiers.

              No surprise I guess.

              What the hell is his end game?

              Also…how can people still hold on to Hubbard’s ideas as if it would all be great if only Miscavige hadn’t happened?

            • MarcabExpat

              Oh no, you had two comments and the important one didn’t get through? Awww.

              I see he also left “Brian’s” comments up but conspicuously avoided answering Brian’s very, very direct and reasonable question. Can’t have too much undiluted truth up at his exalted altitude!

            • LongtimeLurker

              I saw that too. Brian done good.

            • MarcabExpat

              (by the way, what does ‘gimp’ mean in Australian? In American it’s a derogatory term for a person with a disability, just so you know)

            • LongtimeLurker

              Oops. OMG. That’s terrible. I better stop that.

              I was using it like “the gimp” from Pulp Fiction.

              Thanks for the heads up.

            • MarcabExpat

              Aw, I didn’t want to make you feel bad. Tarantino’s not known for his sensitivity to such things 🙂

            • LongtimeLurker

              No, not at all.

              I don’t want to be accidentally throwing around terms that could upset people.

              I’d much rather wait and do it deliberately, when needed.

              Stupid Tarantino. I only really like Reservoir Dogs, anyway.

            • he was not when he finally left, and that count’s for a couple of years. I have also been second rank in my org. rank is BS

            • LongtimeLurker

              Well, I didn’t want to have to tell you it was BS, so I’m glad you said it first. ; )

            • thank’s for your immediate concern 🙂

            • Harpoona Frittata

              The ranks are meaningless, but his proximity to DM during a crucial period of his diabolical maneuvering and criminal behavior make him one of the only direct witnesses to all that evil. Too bad he was such a direct instrument of implementing it that he can’t really comment without fatally incriminating himself.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Wait, their fake navy is BS and their ranks? Wth?

            • Harpoona Frittata

              Sorry to be tge one to break it to you! I’ve been saluting them for years and just kept getting these weird/annoyed looks in return. It finally all made sense when I learned that it is and has always been a faux navy. Now, instead of saluting, I just hum “Anchors Away” whenever I pass one by.

            • LongtimeLurker

              That’s great!

            • grundoon

              Jesse Prince
              LRH Jr.
              Vicki Aznaran
              Bill Franks
              Helen O’Brien

            • LongtimeLurker

              Did LRH Jr. have a rank?

    • Harpoona Frittata

      WHAT!!? Marty has come out of deep hiding and has more pearls of wisdom to share with us? I just can’t wait!

      Will I be commenting on his latest blog post? I couldn’t even if I wanted to because Mutty routinely deletes my polite and on-topic posts whenever he spots them 😉

      Edit: Just read his blog post, which is really just a long quote from Martha Stout’s book, The Sociopath Next Door, on the surest way to recognize a sociopath.

      “When deciding whom to trust, bear in mind that the combination of consistently bad or egregiously inadequate behavior with frequent plays for your pity is as close to a warning mark on a conscienceless person’s forehead as you will ever be given.”

      Although Mutty (or whoever’s now in charge of his blog) seems to be alluding to unnamed others here who are recognizable as sociopaths, based on their attempts to get us to pity them, I’d say that he’s described himself pretty well there 😉

      What Mutty fails to add is that sociopaths are often very intelligent individuals who learn to adapt and disguise themselves even better, based on what they’ve learned. In this case, a sociopath who’s studied up on folks like Martha Stout, who’s learned to recognize them by certain common traits (i.e, calculatedly portraying themselves as pitiable characters), would be careful NOT to make the mistake of revealing himself by posing as a pitiable person.

      Who do you know who’s smart enough, wily enough and covertly in need of folks pity badly enough to do something like that? Yep, that’s who comes to mind for me to. Projection’s a real bitch when you get caught out on it while trying your best to demean others.

      Quick, someone who’s allowed to post on Mutty’s blog, please ask him some detailed questions about what his take is on Leah’s series. I’m sure THAT would be something worth hearing about from him 😉

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Is this a dig at DM who is always complaining about his rich evil little “church” being bullied?

      • Observer

        He hasn’t said anything remotely critical of DM for, IIRC, over a year now, so my guess would be no. I think it’s more likely a dig at Leah, who has used the word “bully” in her show, or another ex(es) who is speaking out.

        ETA: full disclosure: I will not give him the traffic, so my opinion is based on what other people have said. Even if it’s off-base for the blog entry in question, I stand by it in general.

      • MarcabExpat

        Nope, it’s a dig at the people telling their stories on Leah’s show. And given the timing, it’s an especially pointed dig at Mike Rinder. Nice, Marty. Extra nice.

    • Perhaps he’s turned them off. The comments, that is. EDIT: Wow. I just read the post. Marty got a new projector with a bigger bulb.

      • Kim O’Brien

        i think he needs the feedback . eventually

    • MarcabExpat

      I just, WOW. Can’t improve on Artoo’s choice description just below. But besides that, isn’t it interesting to see him call anyone who tells the truth about Scientology a psychopath?

      I mean, I shouldn’t be surprised. But he just keeps digging on in a little deeper.

      “Beware those nefarious appeals to human decency! They’re an evil snare designed to drag you to hell!”

    • Frodis73

      Somebody else finally felt the disturbance in the Force…I saw that yesterday but I refuse to give him the attention he so desperately wants. What a jerk tho.

  • 3feetback-of-COS

    Jon Atack is always a bright beacon of rationality and enlightenment any time!

  • Alice Graves

    Off topic, but for Forrest Ackerman lovers there’s an interesting documentary on HBO on Demand called “The Life After Death Project” made by independent filmmakers who knew Ackerman. The guy was a serious hoot – I could see why he would have associated with Hubbard as he was quite peculiar himself and liked to hang around with science fiction writers and artists.

    The story is too good to miss.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Love Forry!

    • Stephanie Loving

      Thanks for the tip Alice. I’m gonna check it out.

      • Alice Graves

        I just realized I found it on Streampix, not HBO on Demand. Streampix is part of my XFinity package and I often get the two mixed up.

    • Fandom is a way of afterlife!

  • nottrue
    • LongtimeLurker

      DeLOLful!

    • Graham

      Plenty of info coming forward from various directions. Enough for a second series?

    • Harpoona Frittata

      What’s that I hear…is that the sound of floodgates opening? Love it!

      • John Prince

        ..the Damm is Broken ! Sodamm &Gomorrah is now swimming! Praise Xenu

    • pluvo

      Mr Fredericks, make sure you get the PIs on camera.

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      The dam is bursting now, isn’t it? I know a little somebody who’s gonna need water wings…

    • Harmless Weirdo

      BRB. Going to Costco for an entire flatbed of popcorn…

      • Eivol Ekdal

        You can only buy two flatbeds minimum, they come shrink wrapped together.

  • Observer
    • Stephanie Loving

      Haha for reals

    • gtsix

      Doggie for the win!

    • Missionary Kid

      Obs, thanks. Best laugh of the day.

  • joan nieman

    Thank you once again John for your visit to the bunker. It is always a pleasure to read what you have experienced and studied. Your words will reach out to an unknown number of lurkers. This is always a good thing .

  • Saint Hill’s newest SCAM https://twitter.com/XmasSaintHill

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      Someone ought dress up like Xenu and don ice-skates and hum Christmas songs and put the “body-thetans” are coming additional lyrics, into Christmas jingles.

      • Yes! and an Ice scatting Peter Pan

        • Scott H

          Ice scatting sounds both painful and possibly illegal.

    • Phil Jones

      Well if they can’t make money selling auditing they can bring in the cash with an ice rink:

      Saint Hill Ice Rink ticket prices: £7.50 adults; £5 kids (45 mins) + Family tkts.

      Edit to add: And what’s with the “45 mins?”. Can’t they get an hour of skating in?

      • They probably sell them as intensives 12 1/2 hour

        • Phil Jones

          I never understood the significance of the extra 1/2 hour.

          • either did i…nobody i asked did

      • Scott H

        That’s just for the skates, the actual ice costs a few extra quid.

      • Harmless Weirdo

        Even evil psychs give their clients a 50-minute “hour.”

        That’s a tiny rink, but I can’t imagine it getting so crowded that they need to limit patrons to 45-minute sessions. And if you go over 45 minutes, do they charge you for the entire second session? (Don’t nod too hard, Bunkerues; you’ll get whiplash.)

    • Scott H

      That’s not quite a rink, more like Rink Light, rinkette or I Can’t Believe It’s Rink…

      • Harmless Weirdo

        A dinky rink for a rinky-dink “religion”?

  • StudentOfLife

    I admit I have been gullible and like what Kim said about there are a lot of lying sack of shits. I have trouble believing people lie in the most subtle ways. I adopted a philosophy of trying to be honest about my motives and didn’t realized others didn’t have that same goal. I attended a church in Hemet during 85-88 (I lived in Moreno Valley) and and met some scilons who seemed very enthusiastic. I once did one auditing session I paid $100 for to please a woman who tried to seduce me with scientology and got me to take some basic intro courses. I had finally passed the bullbaiting (sitting in a chair emotionless while no limits on what is said) and I actually paid for an auditing session for her as a gift and she insisted I get one session. When I met the auditor, reincarnation was brought up and how did I feel about it. I was open minded…well, during the session, I wound up playing the role of Raskolnikov, the great fictional character from “Crime and Punishment.” The auditor, who was supposedly the most experienced one there, didn’t even blink. I described the murder I supposedly committed and then my fear that no one would find out that I had committed the perfect murder and how it hounded me. I ditched the lady after I realized she was a loon trying to get to my money as the courses suddenly got expensive and I knew that their auditing could not detect total lies plus reincarnation proponents can never find one person to reveal new technology or how to advance mankind with anything but woo woo generalizatoins.

    You think I would have learned but years later I became business partners with a sports celebrity scilon (one of the very few) and watched my own life go through near financial disaster as I raised a very large sum of money for his business not knowing scilons were pulling his puppet strings waiting to bankrupt his business after using up all the money on his going up the bridge. I lost one of my best friends seduced by OT5 strictly to join the cult and now I’ve been disconnected from both. It’s actually very freeing. I leave Ojai, CA tomorrow to drive to Georgia with a stop in St. Louis along the way so won’t around much for a few days but will always read this and Rinder’s when I stop to eat and sleep. Will be in hotel to watch A&E 9pm Tuesday, though, lol.

    • Missionary Kid

      Have a good, safe, trip. Hopefully, by then, things will have warmed up a little.

      I got body routed by a good looking lady when I had time to kill, so don’t feel bad. It wasn’t a total waste of time, because it gave me more insight into the con.

      • Kim O’Brien

        you just stared at her boobies

        • Missionary Kid

          Snortle. Maybe I did, but all I remember is the impression that she was cute and had a nice face.

          • gtsix

            Yep… definitely a boobie stare. “Nice face” uh huh.

            • Missionary Kid

              Geez. It was about 40 years ago. I had enough sense to give a fake name, address, and phone number.

            • Kim O’Brien

              can’t knock the hustle …boobie looker 😉

            • Missionary Kid

              *Laughing, then smiling*

    • Harpoona Frittata

      It’s a sad fact, but NO $cilon can be trusted in any way, at any time or in any possible scenario!

      That sounds harsh and absolutist, but even the ones who are sincere in wanting to pursue the good aspects of $cn become easy prey for the vulture reges and will unwittingly drag down everyone they’re associated with. Indeed, what makes some of $cn’s many con strategies so successful is that they very often get altruistic and sincere, but naive, folks to front the scam who end up getting taken for the ride along with those they’ve unwittingly brought into it.

      I’m sure there’s at least one honest and ethical $cilon business person out there, but I sure haven’t heard of him! So, better to just assume that every single one that you meet is either a dishonest scammer or being used by one to front their own scam.

    • pluvo

      You know about FSMs (Field Staff Member), public Scios, and that they get a percentage of everything you pay in Scn, right? If “pre-clear” for example would have gotten you in, she would have gotten 15% respecticly 10% of whatever you would have paid.
      http://www.xenu-directory.net/documents/corporate/fsm.html

      • StudentOfLife

        Wow! I did not know that. That explains why pre-clear kept harping on me even after I dared challenge Miscavige. She was always prodding me to take a class, and after I got her to answer the phone after I was disconnected she insisted that the best way for my daughter in St. Louis to pass the bar exam was to take the Scholastic Academy study tech course which would ensure she would pass. When I asked her to name a single doctor or lawyer and for any professional references who would credit the “tech” for their passing the “bar” or “premeds” of course she could name “nada” or “zero” and I asked her repeatedly for a single person who had an advanced degree who would credit Scholastic Academy. I asked her what scientists, doctors, or lawyers all grew up with the “tech” credited for their educational success. She couldn’t name one of course.

        OT5 got “pre-clear” to spend at least six figures, I know she told me she had paid $250K (and still not clear) because she was convinced she had to pay for retakes of a bunch of classes for OT5 who had been in since 1978 and stalled due to giving all his money to the cult. He is still trying to con people of their money using his name, to go up the bridge to try and reach OT8, his eventual stated goal in this lifetime before dropping the body.

  • Noesis

    The Ronald” – lol.

    That phrase alone makes this post by Jon a masterwork!

  • GrangerFX

    I have never been tempted to join the CoS yet I fully admit I am gullible. I have known this for a long time but something odd happens when you fully accept that you can be deceived. You start to enjoy discovering you are wrong about something you believed in. I recommend watching the series “BS” by Penn and Teller. It covers numerous subjects in a very explicit way (for adults only). I bet you, like I, will find at least one subject that they cover which you had the wrong idea about. For me it was capital punishment. Perhaps it will be recycling or some other subject. Even if it does not change your opinion, it will challenge you to accept ideas and information that runs against what you “know” to be true.

    • Vaquera

      Our proprietor is in the very first episode of BS.

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    Jon, thank you for your interesting essay.

    On YouTube I sometimes see comments about how stupid cult-members are. Those commenters have no idea. The information they have comes mainly from ex-members. Information is easily available on the internet nowadays. Cult members and exes are and were not stupid. Gullible, allright. And many people are still gullible.
    I include two short videos by Steven Hassan, author of Combatting Cult Mind Control. The first one deals with who’s gullible enough to fall for mind control and the second one is about the B.I.T.E. model.
    I also like Hassan’s discussions on video with Paulette Cooper and of course with Jon Atack.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuVmi-fI6Y&index=1&list=LLE5AXz6WwQVTCVFRFoOpa9w&t=8s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4&list=LLE5AXz6WwQVTCVFRFoOpa9w&index=4

  • Noesis

    Great post – thanks Jon!

    Living a life in the larger world is infinitely more complicated than succumbing to the lure of “certainty” offered by Scientology.

    In exchange for the “certainty” of Scientology one has to close off one’s own understanding of events in order to substitute Hubbard’s – thus making one susceptible to all manner of manipulation.

    Hubbard was even clever enough to include many of the objections one might have to being manipulated by (1) predicting those objections and (2) inventing a category of “otherness” called “PTS” in which a person who manifests one or more of those objections is placed, so they can be abused by regges (for money) or ethics (for domination.)

    A good question to ask oneself every once in awhile is “What do I fervently believe to be true right now – that if fully inspected and compared against information from other sources – might turn out to be untrue?”

    It is an easy question to recommend to others – and a very difficult one to ask of oneself.

    It is indeed hard to admit to having once been gullible – and even harder to perceive that it may still be a lifelong habit.

  • Maybe here is something to learn from “LGBT activist plans ad blitz targeting Mormon church’s tax-exempt status”
    http://www.sltrib.com/home/4690644-155/lgbt-activist-plans-ad-blitz-targeting

    • Todd Tomorrow

      I knew a friend of mine that went to BYU and they had campus cops get your plates from gay bars. Then you’d have a chance to go into a barbaric form of counseling VS. kicking you out and telling your parent’s. They’d put you in a room and have you watch gay pornography. If you got an erection they’d shock you. He claimed that many told them it worked just to get them off their backs. He on the other hand was a big deal on the swim team and told them to go “fuck themselves.” He’d been turned in earlier that year for practicing self love by his dorm mate. The next morning he awoke to find his father there to help him move out. Funny thing is he was far from gay and his parent’s knew that. It wasn’t until later that he’d figured out the person he let use his truck must have been at the gay bar.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        Back in day, I had several gay friends who were in recovery from being LDS church members. They had all been suicidal before bailing from that extremely high-demand, homophobic group and commented on how badly conflicted their still-in gay friends were.

        To be fair, I’m not in contact with any current members, gay or straight, so I don’t know if they’ve softened their hard-core position on the issue or not. But since having many children is a prime directive of the church, it’s hard to see how homosexuality could ever be fundamentally reconciled with the faith.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          I don’t know anyone associated with the LDS either. I sadly doubt they’ve softened anything to do with homosexuality. Yesterday’s story was so sad about the $cion that hung himself for being exposed as a prostitute was so sad. Then hearing about a fellow gay bunkerite who said they too had considered killing themselves for being gay was just heart wrenching. Religion it just ruins everything and $cions are experts at destroying people.

          • Harpoona Frittata

            Isn’t that the truth! Having never been raised within a strict religion that condemned homosexuality, it was a real eye opener for me to learn how devastating it can be for young folks who are just coming into their sexuality to be condemned and cast out by their cherch, and even their families, for just being who they are.

            You really have to admire folks like Paul Haggis who stood with his lesbian daughters against the cherch and wouldn’t be silenced. Acts like that save young lives and the same goes for families who are willing to break with the

            cherch to get their seriously mentally ill children the help that they need instead of following the cherch’s prescribed course of treatment, which is to do nothing but feed them vitamins and hope nothing terrible happens.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              I appreciate Paul Haggis’s reaction once his daughter’s brought it to his attention. I guess what I question is why he wouldn’t have picked up on it earlier? As a clam for a long time, as with all celebs, we are finding out from Leah, that they did indeed have an idea these abuses were going on. They blame it on the brain washing but I’d guess any parent of gay children in his right mind, might double check to see if they are being treated with the respect they deserve as human beings in his cult of “underdogs”. A cult he knows sees lesbians and gays or par with child molesters. Then again I guess I’d wonder if he himself was treating them like little adults?. So much to ponder but the only thing I can vaguely compare it to is how people can, for the most part, tell if their spouse is cheating. We’ve seen those that ignore it, go into denial…Often it is said that parent’s are the first to know one’s child is gay but the last to accept. I too wasn’t raised in a cult but I know when I start to hear the same things over and over it moves me to explore and sure enough there is most often truth in those rumors or accusations. Like J. Travolta there have been too many people telling the same story which follows the same M.O., One I know barely spoke English and wasn’t quite sure who Travolta was. He was interviewed and just seemed rattled by the whole experience which also cost him his job on a cruise ship. So here we have a man who has chosen to live in the closet and be black mailed by b.m. But it works for Travolta since they protect him by intimidating or paying off the people he sexually assaults. The entire thing is just so sick and twisted.

            • Harpoona Frittata

              You raise some good points there. Paul sounded like the typical $cilon celeb who, like JT and TC, had long ago established the habit of not reading about or listening to any negative media coverage of their “beautiful religion,” based on the blanket assumption that “it’s all lies and SPs trying to destroy whatever is good in the world.” That uncritical-minded, “see no, hear no evil,” head-in-the-sand orientation seems to be SOP, that is until the cherch does something horrific that affects their own family, at which time some of them, like Paul, come out of their cult Kool-Aid-induced trance and take a stand because it affects them directly.

              It also sounds like Paul was somewhat of a distant parent to his kids in general, more concerned and busy with his career than he was actively involved in their upbringing and that he had something of a wake up call about that one as well, when he finally clued into the fact that he’d been supporting a homophobic and authoritarian cult.

              Leah’s series is putting all of the cult’s stinking behavior right under the noses of the rest of these $cilon celebs, so that even though they’ve still got their eyes and ears covered, there’s just no way for them to not smell the stench rising from their thoroughly rotten religion. As such, it now makes plausible denial almost impossible for them. In the near future, the “I didn’t know,” Good German defense is just not going to fly with anyone anymore.

              For the few real celebs left in $cn: You really DON’T want to be the last one out of the cult…better get out while the gettin’ is good!

      • Plus they got to watch porn.
        Wonder who at BYU is in charge of getting that.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          I tried to ask him about that but all he said was that they were old VHS tapes.

      • gtsix

        Grrrrrr. Fucking homophobic religions that torture people for loving. Grrrr.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          They were attempting to offer him one last chance until he screamed loudly in the dorms. “I can’t wait to get out of this place, I’m going to go jerk off and hit the ceiling!” Ending his full ride to BYU. His parents cried the whole trip back to Seattle.

  • nottrue
    • Draco

      Aw…so sweet

    • Jenyfurrrrr

      SO cool to see… this just keeps getting bigger & bigger!

  • Missionary Kid

    Yesterday, I got a reply to one of my posts from three years ago. Checking with one long-time ex, the name seemed familiar to them, and they said not to bother replying because it’s probably someone trying to get their stats up.

    I had posted something about how out of date Hubturd’s learning courses were, and this person responded with praise for the Student Hat course, as well as others. Fuck ’em.

    • Observer

      I’ve had some responses to very old posts recently as well, but none of them were trying to support Scientology. Weird.

      • Missionary Kid

        Why would anyone go that far back? It is weird.

        • Observer

          Maybe they followed a link to an old story or, if they’re Scilons trying to get stats, are just pulling up old stories randomly.

          • Missionary Kid

            The latter is what my ex-clam thought it was: someone trying to get stats.

      • Weird/random indeed.

    • Got one yesterday on two years old post.

    • Jimmy3

      Someone left me a note in my cubby locker at my kindergarten just the other week. They really only wanted to know why I still check that inbox. But it was still sweet that someone was thinking of me.

    • Draco

      I’ve been getting likes on very old posts. I thought it was just a bunch of newbies who have discovered the Bunker…

      • Missionary Kid

        I don’t keep track of likes. If I ever get another reply to an old post, I’ll check to see if the person has posted a like, too.

        I think your theory of it being newbies is a good one.

  • Ann B Watson

    An absolutely true & profound post.Thank you Jon & Tony.💖

  • Eivol Ekdal
  • Vancouverite

    Bravo. Great read.

    • cinfrance

      Great read – as usual from Jon A.

  • Cosmo Pidgeon

  • FOTF2012

    Some of the best words of wisdom I’ve read were from Jon Atack above when he wrote: “I told him that the great thing is that I know I’m gullible – and that makes me more cautious.”

    We humans have so many blind spots — huge gaps in our sensory input, assumptions made in the mental models we consider reality, blinders worn for love and hate and belief, unexamined biases and prejudices, limited ability to grasp a big picture over large spans of space and time, and on and on.

    So thank you, Jon. You are so correct. We are all vulnerable by virtue of being human with all our cognitive limitations.

    (Someone could argue, yeah, but we are not humans, we are immortal thetans, so those human failings don’t apply. My response would be, prove it. Incredible claims demand incredible evidence. Sixty-five years of Dianetic and Scientology absolute failure to make a single documented OT (or even a Clear) does not provide much evidence in support of thetans as conceived by Hubbard.)

  • nottrue
  • iampissed

    Hey folks I could use some kind thoughts. I’m sitting in ER waiting for my Dad to be checked in, he’s having a hard time breathing. I’m trying to kill time so here I am. Kind thoughs for and old man would be
    appreciated.

    • Sherbet

      Definitely sending kind thoughts to both of you.

      • Kestrel

        I thought iampissed wanted kind trouts.

        • Sherbet

          I think it would be hard to determine who’s naughty and who’s nice in the trout world.

          • Kestrel

            The nice trout leap right into your net.

            • Sherbet

              Ah. You’re right.

        • iampissed

          They would be tasty.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      I’m so sorry to hear that. Your poor dad. I do hope he will be feeling better very soon. It’s frightening when you’re struggling to breathe.

    • Everything is going to be all right.

    • Draco

      Kind thoughts and (((hugs)))
      Please let us know how he is doing.

    • Jenyfurrrrr

      Hugs, kind thoughts and prayers for your dad’s health! Keep us posted on how things go w/him and know you have a bunch friends waiting w/you there, virtually, in the waiting area!

    • daisy

      Kind thoughts and many hugs. Your dad will be fine I am sure. Let us know .

    • LongtimeLurker

      Thoughts for both of you.

    • PerpetualOutflow

      Hope your father is doing better now.

  • nottrue
    • Sherbet

      JAW hasn’t learned his lesson not to mess with Leah.

      • Harmless Weirdo

        I hope he doesn’t. Watching her bat him around like a cat with a toy mouse is pretty damned entertaining–not to mention he’s a fine illustration of exactly the kind of abusive, vindictive crap she’s talking about.

        • Sherbet

          You’re right. It’s fun to watch, because she gets the last word. Anyway, JAW, isn’t your religion all about ME, ME, ME?

      • Observer

        Hubbard has turned his brain to fetid gas. There’s no room for anything else unless he gets rid of it.

        • Sherbet

          I would think someone from the church would tell him Ixnay on the ocialsay ediamay. It’s very ineffective.

          • Harmless Weirdo

            Fortunately, everyone in the church who is in a position to tell JAW to lay off is just as oblivious and tone-deaf as he is. I’m sure they think he’s doing a great job.

            • Sherbet

              Compared to Kirstie Alley’s “Nyah, nyah” tweets, JAW is the king of social media.

            • LongtimeLurker

              “tone-deaf”

              Gemma argued with me for an hour and about 20 Twitter exchanges when I described JAW like that.

              She insisted it can only refer to hearing.

              I was using images, gifs, links and interpretive dance by the end.

              We’d still be going if I hadn’t just stopped.

              She feeds off fights.

            • Frodis73

              That was so damn funny!!

            • LongtimeLurker

              Just crazy, right?

              Then she started arguing about what “political’ means. She needs a lie down.

          • Observer

            Scientology: if it doesn’t work, use it harder

            • Sherbet

              LOL

            • LongtimeLurker

              Screencapped.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        He and Gemma are probably getting paid in courses for every tweet, so it’s all good to them! Still, when you get about 100 negative responses to your $cn propaganda tweets to every positive one it’s just gotta work on you at some deeper level…regular folks HATE your cult and the more you tweet about it the less shy they are about telling you exactly why!

        • Sherbet

          The game changed with Leah’s first A&E episode. What may have worked before then isn’t working now, and JAW and Gemma should hang it up.

          • Kestrel

            They may be counting on attrition. Eventually, others will tire of the game, but this is the only game JAW and Gemma can play.

            • Sherbet

              I hope they’re sneaking peeks at the entheta available on the Internet.

            • Kestrel

              Me, too.

          • Harpoona Frittata

            They’re both taking a fierce drubbing every time they tweet and I fear that one or both of them may do a “Tommy Davis” soon!

      • Draco

        None of them have…yet

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Her TR’s are spot on.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Love that Elron quote in the background! I forget, did he write that one during the period that he was ordering “bad” children be locked up in the anchor chain locker or was it when he’d drove Quentin to escape from the cult, then commit suicide? Elron truly was the poster child for making Doublespeak into a viable system of practice and belief!

      Just substitute “$cn organization” for the word “society” there and truer words were never spoken!

    • LongtimeLurker

      JAW…

      Idiot?

      Or total ****ing idiot?

      Discuss.

      • Observer

        Pitiable husk of a human being.

        • Mockingbird

          Great opening line on a resume

      • Draco

        A wanker of the first water

        • LongtimeLurker

          He really is.

      • JaxNGold

        LOL….I’m going with total f***ing idiot.

    • Jenyfurrrrr

      JAW: “yada yada hate hate”
      LEAH: “BAM!” Mic drop

    • That quote… “When children become unimportant to a society, that society has forfeited its future.” Not original, thus not untrue.
      Now think of how Co$ has treated Cadet Org / Sea Org children, the overwork, the poor education, the restrictions and emotional neglect, the alienation from parents, and also think how Hubbard treated his own offspring, especially Alexis. I would say Co$ has forfeited its future, wouldn’t you?

  • Joe

    Did anyone else see Leah on Megyn Kelly’s show? She said that Tommy Davis got “kicked out” from being Scientology’s spokesperson but is still a Scientologist. I wonder how he feels about that.

    • Sherbet

      Someday, whoistommydavis dot com will say he was “expelled,” but, in his case, there will be some truth to it.

  • Jon, gullible? Perish the thought! But El Ron was no alien, just a mendacious son-of-a-bitch… (re-inoculate against mange and hard-pad): https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/879d7fe8bca47ddbcac840472a1c2a209935cca92770af58e78980fc5267b6b2.jpg

    • Sherbet

      Stellar, Mark, stellar.

    • Draco

      Where do those photos come from?

      • Sherbet

        Snortimer’s personal photo album.

      • An assiduous search of Googlehearsay images 🙂

        I’d guess they were taken by an agency snapper when Dianetics was just out; I think they were originally reproduced in one of the ‘Ron Series’ coffee-table books.

      • LongtimeLurker

        Are you after the originals Draco?

        • Draco

          Not really, Lurker. Was just curious and trying to place the time period by how old he looks. As Mark says below – just after dianetics came out. It’s actually amazing how quickly he aged after that.

          • LongtimeLurker

            The stress of maintaining it all, I suppose?

  • Sherbet

    We’ve got Ron’s droppings here in the Bunker, and Mr. Sherbet is listening to some cosmic drivel on “Coast to Coast” on his computer. I’m surrounded by space opera. Must get away…

    • LongtimeLurker

      Your life is cray…

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Hey, my name on twitter is cost to coast5. I hadn’t heard about that name before, but thought appropriate for me as I wanted to reach coast to coast. funny eh?

      • that one with 1 tweet, 1 following and 1 follower from 2014 ? we have to do something about that!

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          No, Coast to Coast -Dee F @ coast to coast5
          Following 924 and followers 714. I don talk much, but retweet and like/support.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          I see it didn’t show up so here again… @ cost to coast5
          Following 924 and followers 714

          • Ahh! you already on my list i see np 🙂

            • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

              Yes, nice!

      • Flying High

        Yes I found you and just ‘followed’ you yesterday to establish the great connection. 🙂

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Great, thanks FH.

      • LongtimeLurker

        I didn’t follow you, because I thought you were connected to the show.

        Lol.

  • nottrue
  • cinfrance

    Perfect one more time, Jon Atack

  • MaxSpaceman

    “GET THEE BEHIND ME, THETAN!”

    That’s the way the guy in Times Square said he handles the cherch, their fair gaming, their skullduggery.

  • LongtimeLurker

    OT

    Help needed with brain problem…

    The once-successful clam musician, “reduced” to busking in recent times. Maybe in NY iirc.

    Really sour expression on his face.

    Anyone know who I mean?

  • Wow. I just got a recorded call from Ken Hoden from the CofS. “If you are upset with the church, we would like to help.” It was Kens voice I recognize from late 70s. Anyone else get one? Came from 323-506-3816. Sure, can I have my kids back? Ill record any more.

    • Observer

      I can only imagine what they mean by “help.” 🙁

      • scnethics

        “Help” you find new and larger sources of credit so we can “help” you right back into Wonderland 🙂

    • FredEX2

      Whoa! “If you are upset with the church, we’d like to help”
      ???
      Never thought they’d ever ask someone a question like that! If it was a recording, perhaps they are sending this msg out and calling others too. Otherwise wouldn’t they just have someone call you? Why a recording? So weird they did this.

      • pluvo

        It’s a bait to lure them in to get a free “ARC break session”… and whatever follows like to answer questions about who said something bad about Scn, give them the latest “dead agent” info about Leah and Mike R., give them a sec check session to clean the ARC breaks (= upsets) or some ethics “to help” them like a doubt condition etc.

      • Liberated

        Gee, it sounds like the cult might have a problem confronting an actual real person on the phone.
        They need to do some TRs.

    • Phil Jones

      Help = Rollback & sec-checks.

      • I would not do more then a phone call. I’ve given enough of me to that religion. Lets see what happens…

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Wow, “report to the implant station immediately for regrooving!”

      I’m just very curious what their “handle” protocol is and exactly how long it would take them to get to the “give us money” part of the pitch?

      Unless it’s an automated system, they’re really taking a chance that some poor young $ea Orgy recruit is going to slip up and actually have a live conversation with a caller and we all know where THAT can lead!

      Cece, I’d love to hear them try and answer that question about getting your kids back!

      • grundoon

        HCO POLICY LETTER OF 6 JUNE 1962 – ARC BREAK CLEAN-UP PROGRAMME

        The following programme for cleaning up ARC breaks, initiated by Fred Fairchild, Tech Director in Washington D.C., should be used also in other Orgs.

        PURPOSE: To get the ARC breaks cleaned up with past students and preclears; to invite further activity in Scientology on their part; to get them paying on over-due bills.

        ACTION: Body Registrar contacts people who are not paying their bills and are out of communication with the Org, and arranges for these people to come in and get an ARC break check which would amount to a missed withhold check.

        The person would be asked by the auditor some such question as “Do you have an ARC break with Scientology – the org, etc.” or “Do you have any disagreement with Scientology – the org, etc.” This would get a motivator, but it would put them in a hot area of “overts”. The auditor once he has located the area of ARC break, then pulls the “overts”, and who has missed them. (Failed to find out about them.)

        An auditor could be used for this if he doesn’t have a pc, or in case of a weekend, the auditor on a “free” week, can have a day of that week off to make up for auditing on the weekend.

        This is an experiment in which we hope to get ARC broken people active in Scientology and paying on their bills. We hope this to be successful enough to make it a whole programme for the USA with all orgs, and field auditors. At first we will only use it on the local people here, and if successful, will expand from there. It is planned that the ARC breaks can be cleaned up in from 2 to 5 hours.

        L. RON HUBBARD
        by Fred Fairchild Tech Director
        Washington D.C.

    • grundoon

      (deleted name of Paul xxxx from an outdated search result – this number isn’t his any more)
      Google did not reveal any Scientology connection for this name or number.

    • TheLurkingHorror

      The ‘church’ has always been known for their friendly customer service, right? Like, “If you aren’t completely satisfied we will gladly… rip you a new asshole.” Yep, friendly service with a smile.

    • grundoon

      Ken Hoden apparently was busted from Port Captain Gold down to Snr Chaplain ASHO.

      HCO POLICY LETTER OF 9 AUGUST 1971 – ARC BREAK PROGRAM

      An ARC Broken field equals blocks to the expansion of Scientology and decreased income for orgs. Therefore a special Program for finding, contacting, handling and getting ARC Broken Scientologists and blown students back on lines is vital. The Program that handles this is the ARC Break Program, which picks up and handles at ORG EXPENSE every ARC Broken Scientologist and blown student that can be found in the field. A Free Revitalization Session is given each person at NO CHARGE….

      The ARC Break Reg must employ every possible source of information and spare no effort or expense to get ARC Broken Scientologists and blown students located, contacted and turned over to Qual for a session.

      If a person does not or will not come to the org, the ARC Break Auditor then goes to the person’s home and politely 8C’s the person into receiving his Free Revitalization Session.

      The ARC Break Auditor then, using Standard Tech, handles whatever upset the person has which is preventing him from continuing processing or training to the point where he signs up for his next service or returns to completing the course he was on. To really complete cleaning up blown students, they would need full Word Clearing in Qual at own expense before being routed back on Course.

      This Program is simple, but extremely vital to the expansion of Scientology and increased income. So let’s get all those who have reached but withdrawn because of some upset with us rapidly back on the Routing and Gradation Chart and the Road to Total Freedom.

      L. RON HUBBARD

      • Kestrel

        It all comes down to expenses and income, doesn’t it?

      • OK that makes sense. I returned the call and he pulled over and we spoke for 7mins. I made it clear I thought it was pretty devious to pull my kids away. He promised to help. Yup still gullible but I like to call it optimistic 🙂 Thanks for letting me know his post. Maybe he got bruised up at INT and will be out soon. Ya never know… You can be sure if he helps me I will BPI his #for all.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          How interesting! Please keep us updated on what comes of that.

          • He never phoned back 🙁

        • grundoon

          You spoke to Ken Hoden, and he offered to help? Wow. Never thought I would hear that. Hope a change is coming…

          • 16 days ago – he never phoned back like he promised. = no change (yet) 🙂

      • It was tough but I read all that. That was written back in days the church was better at pretending they gave a f**k. The poor auditors that fail in the free session. My daughter at 14 was driving around giving these sessions to guys that refused to come in. The con that is run by the persons that got conned.

    • pluvo

      “According to the German film makers, senior church official Ken Hoden detained them for more than two hours until the police released them.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g20lJuK3cP8

      • pluvo

        Another story about Ken Hoden:

        “KEN HODEN – MISSING – Ken Hoden, was the general manager of Golden Era Productions
        (the Church of Scientology’s film production facility). After the trial of protester Keith Henson he claimed that Scientology’s allegations against Henson had nothing to do with Scientology’s Fair Game policy, and that no such policy existed.

        Ken was the Gold Base public relations person who told the police a nonsensical story about how Stacy Moxon committed suicide. He claimed she went down to rescue a squirrel from the electrical vault and got toasted. He was punished for this failure to make up a better cover story.”
        http://angrygaypope.com/gold/gold_base_people.htm

      • Thank you. I watched twice just to fathom the change in Mike Rinder. I always liked Ken Hoden ~ perhaps he will be changing back soon too 🙂

  • scnethics

    I started with the shocking realization that I was just another human being, THEN I realized I was a gullible one. A message I’m getting more and more into my head: when I feel any sense of smugness, I’m wrong. Which brings me to my public service message to those those who know they are NOT gullible: look out!

  • Here is a good article about Leah Remini’s expose’ of Scientology which I I found at
    The Federalist (Disqus site)
    https://thefederalist.com/2016/12/06/leah-reminis-documentary-turning-scientologys-celebrity-obsession-back/

    • ANNG14

      I give Leah a lot of credit for having the courage to speak out.

  • Worth reading:
    “An Open Letter To Betsy DeVos From America’s Public School Teachers
    You haven’t ever attended or sent your children to a public school, yet you seem to have some pretty strong opinions about them.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/an-introduction-from-public-school-teachers-to-betsy_us_5845e2fbe4b0707e4c8171a3

    • Frodis73

      Thanks, good read. I am seriously stressed out about all of this stuff.

      • Its a really good read.
        Remember, we are the majority.

  • Jeb Burton

    I call scientologists gullible, and I am an asshole and a bully. Even an OSA troll. Atack calls you gullible, and he is some kind of visionary. He may be a touch more articulate, but we both agree scientologists are gullible.

    • Kestrel

      I think all of us are gullible to some degree or in some area.

      • Jeb Burton

        I would agree with that. It’s hard for some of us to admit it.

      • Jeb is the most Gullible i know around here

      • Mockingbird

        Gullible ? I am not falling for that one again ! After the first million times I really learned my lesson ! I think…maybe ?

    • jayla197145

      Well…the WAY in which an idea is expressed can make a ton of difference in how it is received.

    • lol – now you show up

    • I have always liked you Jeb, as i like Dr. Becker from the Show “Becker” and i know Deep Down you like me too 🙂

      • Liberated

        It’s not everyday you hear a “Becker” reference. Ha

        • you know him i can hear 🙂 I have all his shows on rerun

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      Actually, Jeb, he faced his own gullibility:

      “Thirty years ago, a former Commodore’s Messenger told me that the great thing was that we would never be tricked again. I told him that the great thing is that I know I’m gullible – and that makes me more cautious. It is hard to admit that I was completely taken in, but I’ve come to believe that Scientology and Dianetics are nothing more than an elaborate scam, purposefully designed to ameliorate Ronald Hubbard’s desperate self-loathing. If we can learn from that, we can help others to be more skeptical, more considerate and, perhaps, rein in that pride which always leads eventually to a fall.”

      • Jeb Burton

        You know he said something interesting. I am the most skeptical person I know, but what Atack said that he knows he gullible, so he is really cautious, Maybe that explains being skeptical. But thats too deep of a thought for me. Honey, I’m ready for another martini.

    • FredEX2

      No Jeb, you just have given yourself a reputation for putting your foot in your mouth one too many times. I think patience has worn a bit thin.

      • Jeb Burton

        But i am really nice in person.You would love me.

        • i wish you would join the howdycon

          • Jeb Burton

            I can’t afford to be seen with a bunch of nerds. I worked hard for this brand.

            • lol – got you 🙂 good one

            • FredEX2

              Keep workin it Jeb, eventually we might accept you into the Bunker. Just a little more hazing should do it… 😆

          • Observer

            It would be interesting to see if he’s as horribly judgmental about people to their faces as he is online.

            • After some drinks, everything he says would sound hilarious! and people would hug him 🙂

            • Jeb Burton

              I pretty much am. If by horrible you mean awesome.

        • FredEX2

          You most likely are a really nice person and I probably would. 😉

        • LongtimeLurker

          Prove it.

          Here.

          Consistently.

          I fucking dare you.

    • pluvo

      Poor Jeff, got treated so badly when saying the same as Jon Atack says now, sniffff…….. .

      You were not called out because you said Scientologists are “gullible” but because a lot of other stuff.

    • Jimmy3

      Jeb Burton is my spirit animal

      • Ben Franklin

        what about fly?

      • Bobby Tolberto AKA TDA

        JANEWAY: The Commander was introducing me to my animal guide.

        TORRES: I hope that you have better luck with yours than I had with mine.

        CHAKOTAY: B’Elanna’s the only one I know who tried to kill her animal guide.

    • chukicita

      I don’t care if you call me gullible. It just depends on your tone of voice.

    • LongtimeLurker

      It’s not your fucking articulation.

      Stop being such a victim.

      You get accusatory and inflammatory directly at other commenters.

      Atack uses himself as an example.

      Can you seriously not see the difference?

      Your presentation is aggressive, self-involved and muddled.

      FUCKING FIX IT.

      JUST FIX IT.

      FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT.
      FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT.
      FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT.
      FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT. FIX IT.

      THIS.
      IS.
      ON.
      YOU.

      FIX IT.

  • FredEX2

    Just an idea. When staff leaves Scientology and gets sent a humongous ‘freeloader bill’…send THEM an invoice for years of lost wages. That should more than cover it. 😆

    • thetastic

      I have never understood why this issue doesn’t cause cognitive dissonance for many. If the services are free as part of exchange for your labor, why do they need to be paid for again in the freeloader bill? That seems out-exchange to me.

      • FredEX2

        I know. What you said is very true.

  • Chee Chalker

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVkUvmDQ3HY&sns=em

    Guess who’s back?

    ETA: Hint….Alonzo will be VERY happy

    • FredEX2

      Well, alrighty then. I’m dancing.

  • Jeb Burton

    Thank god that bitter ex scientolgist’s show is off and Storage wars is finally on. Jarrod and Brandi are bickering, i hope it is not serious, and Darryl seems very interested in the unit. Should be good.

    • Jeb Burton

      Upset alert. Ivy got the unit.

  • Flying High

    Acknowledging another great soldier who helped and paved the way for all of us to interact here. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e6870c44f9d8a2a5849cba066e571234ca89d4388367e9edef13ff41dc407f.png

    • Jeb Burton

      Soldier?

      • he is a Terminator

        • Ben Franklin

          and a big time Orange Juice fan

          • must be in Florida.. the best juice ever

      • Flying High

        Soldier, Trooper, Warrior, or any applicable adjective who definitely fought many battles in making the real truth about the ‘church’ known. Funny as I was tuning in for the 3rd Presidential Debate and flipping the channels, South Park: Trapped In The Closet was airing.

        • Jeb Burton

          That silly episode was really important. The cult shit their pants.

      • Chee Chalker

        Tinker Tailor Spy?

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      You don’t know how much I want to squeeze that man in the biggest hug, and then take him out for drinks and have him tell me stories all night. I am a fangirl, and I am unashamed.

      • Flying High

        Yes and re-listening to his Media Mayhem interview mow and just so awesome how un-sensored he truly is.

  • Mockingbird

    Poor Marty Rathbun. He tries to serve his master David Miscavige leader of the Scientology cult for some odd reason and goofed the floof again. He quoted Martha Stout’s book The Sociopath Next Door but including the key idea that distinguishes between people like Hubbard along with David Miscavige and the people they terrorize with fair game and other abuses.

    Here’s an excerpt from the quote Marty Rathbun uses:

    “When deciding whom to trust, bear in mind that the combination of consistently bad or egregiously inadequate behavior with frequent plays for your pity is as close to a warning mark on a conscienceless person’s forehead as you will ever be given. A person whose behavior includes both of these features is not necessarily a mass murder, or even violent at all, but is still probably not someone you should closely befriend, take on as your business partner, ask to take care of your children, or marry.” Martha Stout The Sociopath Next Door.

    See, a good or bad or generally neutral person can seek help or kindness or sympathy. Anyone can.

    But the person that has “the combination of consistently bad or egregiously inadequate behavior” in addition to claiming to need attention, help, etc. IS the one to look out for. Hubbard claimed to be wrongly attacked by the press all the time, despite the stories on him beung truthful and his own many, many crimes.

    David Miscavige likewise to outsiders pretends to be a poor ecclesiastical leader working tirelessly in the face of bigots and evil conspiracies as a victim of the malice and gross incompetence of others while carrying out campaigns of character assassination, attempted brainwashing with the RPF and truth rundown and ruthless control via ethics and OSA.

    While the people bringing the many crimes and abuses if the Scientology cult including murder to the light of day are trying to put their lives, minds and families back together and not committing crimes routinely as David Miscavige himself is.

    Thanks Marty, you showed the key difference between people who are critics of Scientology and Hubbard and David Miscavige. Good job.

    • Chee Chalker

      Yeah….that post can go both ways.
      Was Morty pointing out character flaws in LRH and COB? Flaws that came to light thanks to Morty’s posts about how Miscavige feels he is the only one doing anything to save the planet (much like LRH). Poor little (literally) Dave…..everyone should feel sorry for him because he has to do everything!

      Or was Sweetbuns saying that women who come forward and tell the world they were raped as 14 year olds are sociopaths?

      Hmmmm…..I know where my opinion lands

      • Mockingbird

        He was trying to be vague enough that people would project onto him the interpretation they desire. Classic narcissistic approach. Be unclear enough that either side will see you as an allly.

        • Chee Chalker

          It’s also convenient for future denials….. ‘I never said so and so was a sociopath! That is how YOU interpreted it’
          Here’s my challenge to Sweetbuns …..be a man and say what you mean. Don’t hide behind another’s words.

          Typical Scientology Warrior nonsense

          • Mockingbird

            Yes. I think you got it. He isn’t coming out and hides behind vague generalities in insulting huge unnamed groups. It’s plausible deniability. Insult without responsibility for doing it.

            I try very hard to be specific in naming names. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige are men who have committed thousands of crimes including murder. That’s a specific claim. I have gone into details on this hundreds of times and compiled mountains of evidence for people to consider.

            That’s not what Marty is doing.

        • EDN/laineybin

          Way late to the dance (story of my life) but I read his post today and all I could think of was his vague-posting is what you’d expect of tweens and teenagers angsting (new word) on Facebook hoping people would notice and give them the attention they crave. I know he thinks it makes him appear “deep” that he’s posting this stuff, but c’mon, really?

          Also – I do not pity the people I’m seeing on Leah’s show, I’m sad for what they’ve been through, I’m empathizing with their losses and I’m impressed by their strength, courage and humility. In no way am I pitying them, nor do I think they’re asking any of us to pity them.

          • Mockingbird

            I feel bad for them. I think you have a good description for Marty.

    • Kestrel

      I read it. By starting with “Apropos of current events…” but failing to define those events, he attempts to build a mystery sandwich. I’m not interested in mysteries. I’m interested in clarity.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        And any polite request for clarification will be ignored. It’s not too big of a leap to assume with confidence that he’s talking about Leah’s series, but his dark allusion to unnamed others who appreciated his reference to the book years ago, but are actually narcissists who’ve been displaying that “poor me” defining characteristic themselves, is far less clear.

        Why not just make the connection directly and name names, if personal attack is what you’re all about, instead of sending The Oracle and his other butt nuzzling apologists to search back through his blog posts for that period and speculate on who he must be referring to?

        After failing to receive a call back after first-round auditions for Dos Equis’s new “most interesting man in the world,” and nursing some pretty massive butt hurt over not even being asked to consult on Leah’s new series, Mutty is mad as hell at the world and ready to barbecue some “ASC royalty.” But of course he can’t just come straight out and say exactly who he’s referring to there because that would look like he was whining and playing “poor me”. Better to leave that for his minions to do.

        I’d sure like to see someone pin him down on what he thinks about Leah’s new series, but somehow, I just don’t think that’s going to happen. About all you can say there is that sometimes silence speaks louder than words.

        • TheMirrorThetan

          Upvote for “butt nuzzling”.LOL.

      • Mockingbird

        BINGO. He uses a textbook example of a negative generality. He in my opinion somehow is back to serving Miscavige and has to pretend he is neutral. That’s the reason for his vague statements.

        If he just said openly “Leah Remini and critics of Scientology are ALL ALWAYS evil SPs and Hubbard was completely right about them ! And I know Scientology should never be criticized and David Miscavige is wonderful !” Then the vast majority of independent Scientologists and ex Scientologists and on the fence under the radar folks would just reject him completely. So to have some influence on them in service to Miscavige he lies, is intentionally vague and uses confusing and difficult to verify or disprove statements. He is trying to be slick, but has so rapidly switched his position on Miscavige and critics of Scientology that it’s obvious.

        • Kestrel

          I did find his concluding statement interesting: “A person whose behavior includes both of these features is not necessarily a mass murder, or even violent at all, but is still probably not someone you should closely befriend, take on as your business partner, ask to take care of your children, or marry.”

          • Mockingbird

            Remember he was quoting Martha Stout verbatim. So it’s her conclusion.

      • LongtimeLurker

        “Apropos of me having a bad morning…”

    • LongtimeLurker

      A possible borderline sociopath (or at the very least a gleeful bully) who willing served sociopaths calls someone else a sociopath.

      Hey, Marty, you flailing stooge. It’s called “psychological projection” Google it.

      • Mockingbird

        Ouch. That’s a bad burn.

  • Mockingbird

    From the Ron Hubbard center for the deluded – a fully ecclesiastical non think tank – comes the gullible person rundown. Just give David Miscavige one hundred thousand dollars per day until Ron Hubbard’s return and you won’t be ripped off by any more creepy conmen again. We swear this time it’s true.

    • Liberated

      Hi MB, this is O/T…. I know I said I would find the reference regarding Charles Manson and how the cult influenced him in such a way that his crimes became even more violent and perverse after his “auditing sessions”…..well, I still am going to track down the Bugliosi book and find the reference.

      This promise was made at the same time as our election, and let’s just say I’ve been preoccupied
      with keeping my own shit together and now feel I’m ready to do the work.
      In fact I love doing stuff like that.

      Didn’t want you to think I’d forgotten.

      • Mockingbird

        Thanks. I know there is a lot of evidence to dig through regarding Scientology and Manson himself too. It’s a big time commitment and life obviously gives us a lot of other responsibilities.

      • LongtimeLurker

        Lib, first apologies for sticking my nose in.

        I’ve got a bunch of excerpts from Bugliosi’s book (and elsewhere) re Manson that I saved from various online sources, including ye olde alt.religion.scientology and some Robert Vaughn Young quotes about actually visiting Manson in jail.

        Let me know if that would help save you some time, I could just give you all of it and you could sort through it.

        Or…I could not. ; )

        • Liberated

          Don’t ever apologize, I would love your help, I was gonna start W/Helter Skelter and go from there.
          I remember Bugliosi saying that Manson up to his scien, time ….his crimes were of a petty nature, not so violent or as serious
          So yes , let’s tackle this tomorrow (well it’s been tomorrow in your world already)
          So confusing, I’ll sleep on it and see ya sometime tomorrow.

          • LongtimeLurker

            Okay.

            Remind me. ; )

            xoxo

            • Todd Tomorrow

              HoHo Ho HO!

  • Todd Tomorrow
    • Flying High

      Yes, Funny as hell!

      • Todd Tomorrow

        I loved it!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Did you know that “gullible” isn’t in the dictionary?

    • daisy

      I am not falling for it , yes I did ,but I was at least suspicious

      • Bobby Tolberto AKA TDA

        Can you clay model that for me?

      • TheLurkingHorror

        But you can’t be considered gullible if you earnestly checked out the veracity of the statement. That’s the smart thing to do. 😉

    • Jeb Burton

      Only the gullible believe what is in the dictionary.

  • Jeb Burton

    Geez Marty. Why dance around the topic in your pseudo intellectual way. Say it Warrior, Mark Rinder is a sociopath! ASC FOR LIFE.

    • gtsix

      Mike Rinder. Mark Rathbun. Just FYI

      • LongtimeLurker

        That happens so often.

        Like people thinking Todd Tomorrow is Tony’s compadre Tom Tomorrow.

        Or that Panopea Abrupta is female.

      • Jeb Burton

        Shouldn’t of had that third martini.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    Church of Scientology: We Oppose Fake News!

    https://otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/thetan.png?w=285&h=158

    “As the most ethical group on the planet, we in the Church of Scientology oppose fake news,” declared Church spokesman Ken Delusion.

    “Unlike the truths we speak in Scientology, fake news is damaging, misleading, and acts to harm thetans by implanting them with false data — and we in Scientology would never implant anyone with false data, lies,
    or fake news.”

    “Furthermore, we in Scientology are deeply harmed by the literally tens of thousands of fake news stories out there on the internet, on television, and even in the theaters that portray the Church of Scientology as a greedy, thieving, scumbag criminal organization.”

    “These fake news stories peddled by the Psychs also slanderously portray Scientology’s global ecclesiastical leader Mr. David Miscavige as a ravening, violent, and ill-tempered hoodlum who is propelled along in life by his own narcissism, insatiable greed, and caprice.”

    “Nothing could be further from the truth! Mr. Miscavige is a humanitarian greater than even Gandhi!”

    “These fake news stories further seek to impugn Scientology’s Founder who was a nuclear physicist, a Civil Engineer, and a heavily decorated WWII combat hero.”

    “All of this fake news is outrageous and must stop or we in Scientology will sue everyone in the world!”

    • Panopea Abrupta

      Sports News December 10, 2016
      with our correspondents, Mellow Johnny and Ivanna Idea

      Pro-Wrestling comes to the White House
      Donny “The Heelspur Tramp” Trump and his tag-team pal, Mike “Half” Pence,
      will be top of the bill in a brand-new line-up from Alex Jones, Breitbart and Fox,
      now co-sponsors of the all-white alt-right.
      Small shite, it’s all gall ‘n trite.
      Pall? It might.
      Their first opponents will be Truth and Ethics, opponents they have murdered in previous encounters.
      Also on the bill will be Rudy “Rudeboy” Giuliani and Mike “The General” Flynn,
      “The Bear” Poutine and “Pissmire” Price versus “Mad Dog” Mathis and Jeff “The Alabama Asshole “Sessions.
      The Koch Boys were also rumoured to be developing a new tag-team but they were
      obscured by a cloud of coal-dust and a sickly yellow chemical smog.
      Eric “The Surreal Chiller” and Don Jr. “Da Cat Killer”, fighting as Satan’s Spawn, were seen warming up.
      These Absolute Zeroes were at Minus 47C when last seen.
      Interest was lukewarm.
      Scott “Big Oil – We don’t need no stinkin’ science, EPA” Pruitt reckons he can do something about that.

      Conflict of Interest Productions will be televising all brawls and scraps –
      and voters should expect only scraps.
      Robert Crumb said that he objected to his name being used to describe policies
      proposed for the 99.9%
      Ben “It’s not brain surgery” Carson was storing grain in the Trump Pyramid Scam Scheme
      and was not available for comment.
      China was not amused.

    • Phil Jones

      I know, right? Scientology should be the only ones who can put out fake news.

  • ONEpointONE

    How lovely to know you can refer a scientologist to Hubbard’s first novel in which he, by his own words, proves himself a liar. He innocently admits in 1934 to having never met the Blackfoot Indians yet claims twenty years later to have been a BLOODBROTHER. You don’t suppose he lied about that on purpose?

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Jon’s observation that the farther back you go in tracing Elron actual biography the closer to the truth you’ll get, based on Elron’s own description of the events is an excellent insight. My personal favorite there is that early taped lecture in which he praises British occultist, Aleister Crowley’s work, calling it a bit wild in places, but otherwise very good.

      The corporate cherch’s “revisionist history unit” has moved mountains to try and spin Elron’s pre-Dianetics magiking days with Jack Parsons, which featured lots of loose women, plenty of drugs and occult sex magik rituals. Elron, Jack and all of their good time buddies were way into Crowley’s occult cherch. When they couldn’t deny the he’d lived in L.A. with Jack, they came up with their own whopper about how he’d been sent in as a government spy to break up Parson’s black magik ring which was supposedly threatening national security! Totally hilarious…before starting a cult of his own, Elron was an cultist himself!

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Will Smith loves his gay son although the word around Hollywood was Will’s gay behavior goes way back. Alexis Arquette had the details up before her death. Here he shows his love for his son.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsAmSc0PhuY

    • Kim O’Brien

      why are you always so on the gay thing ? i mean ..is that the most offense thing to you ?

      • Todd Tomorrow

        I just think it’s odd that something $cion’s find so low on the tone scale and drives members to suicide is tolerated if you’re a celebrity. In Ca. ,at least in The Bay Area , it is now against the law to practice aversion therapy, yet they still take people’s money. Plus I’m totally obsessed with cocks, Kim! I came across an article that told about the death of Alexis Arquette and she was writing a book about celebs. The excerpts that discuss Will’s double life is too graphic for here.
        Edit: http://pagesix.com/2016/01/20/alexis-arquette-claims-will-and-jada-pinkett-smith-are-gay/

  • Missionary Kid

    Listening to NPR this afternoon, I found an example of worse treatment of apostates than fair game. In Iran, they execute those declared as apostates.

    • flyonthewall

      this is a great movie. Not about apostasy but this woman gets stoned to death after being framed for fornication. Based on true story

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWQ9phw1C9w

      • Chee Chalker

        That actress is great. She played Saddam Hussein’s wife in the HBO mini series ‘House of Saddam’ (If I recall the title correctly)
        I love her voice. The voice of Demi Moore if she had smoked for 20 years

        • Frodis73

          She looks and sounds familiar…I have not seen that one though. I will have to go check imdb.

      • iampissed

        I just can’t.

      • Frodis73

        I want to see this! Thx for the heads up.

  • noseinabk

    For the first time I disagree with you Jon. You were not gullible so much as reaching for a clear understanding of how to live life and help others maximize their contributions to society.
    Many young people fall in to this trap of thinking there is only one way to salvation or better health by following some fake guru.

    • I completely agree with that. Also, at the time Jon and I get in (roughly the same time) there were a lot of people disilluioned by the way the 60s turned out and wanted a non-drugs-related way to make things better for people.

    • Jimmy3

      Sounds like trolling to me. Only trolls disagree with the bunker author.

      • LongtimeLurker

        Probably Jon’s sock. Tryin’ to create a ruckus for the clicks.

        • Spike Robinson

          Jon’s socks don’t go on the internet much. His vests won’t let them.

          • LongtimeLurker

            Lol!

      • Spike Robinson

        Jon likes people disagreeing with him. He says it helps him think more clearly about what he believes, because he has to re-asses it.

        But, fwiw, noseinabk, I think you’re just misunderstanding Jon’s definition of “gullible.” He doesn’t mean it as an insult; we’re all gullible. Our brains and our perceptions fool us constantly, and we’re hard-wired to go along with the group (Jon hates it when I compare our neurology to circuitry, but wtf, it’s a good analogy). But you have a good point.

  • iampissed

    Dad update, he’s doing as well as one can sitting in a hospital. They think he may have had a minor
    heart attack. He’s is resting well and I’m back home so I can sleep well and go back tomorrow.
    Thank you so much for your kind thoughts and words. I just needed a bit of diversion while in
    the ER waiting room. You folks are the best!

    • Jimmy3

      Sorry to hear. Hope everything is alright.

      • iampissed

        I think he will be OK….THANKS

    • gtsix

      Hope it’s very minor and good health to your dad. Sleep well.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Fingers crossed for a good prognosis. Everything crossed!

    • MarcabExpat

      I missed your post initially, glad to hear he’s coming along! Do keep us posted.

  • Robert Eckert

    Is it time for head-banger music? I think so:
    https://www.facebook.com/Radioactivo98.5FM/videos/10157594905635171/

    • Jimmy3

      It’s 12:10AM EST

      • Robert Eckert

        You gonna call the po-po?

  • Vaquera
    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      One of my favourite songs.

    • ReallyMGM

      I wish I could up vote this more I appreciation for his voice!

  • everchangingmeezer (wogsy)

    Ignorance is bliss, but not all the time. I finally caught up on Scientology aftermath. H-O-L-Y S-H-I-T…Warrior Leah is doing a mighty Damn good job frying DM’s dick on a sizzling platter. I love it when the feminine stomps on the masculine piece of shit. Fuck you, Scientology!

    • Todd Tomorrow

      ” when the feminine stomps on the masculine”. ?

      • everchangingmeezer (wogsy)

        Google Masculine and Feminine Archetypes. I would describe Scientology as an organization dominated by the negative Masculine Archetype, always having to win, do and be cause over life. Leah taking on the Scientology and allowing Exes to tell their stories is the beginning of healing for many exes which is a Feminine principle.

        The fact that people have the a space to tell it with much support when it didn’t exist – I would describe it as the Feminine stomping the Masculine. There are some men who are Feminine – Masculine some that are Masculine-Masculine and some women who are Feminine-Feminine and some who are Masculine-Feminine. I’m not a man hater or anything. I’m just excited this is happening. And I’m a Masculine-Feminine anyways, so I can’t really hate the principle now can I ?I’m just expressing anger 🙂

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Thanks, I was just trying to figure out where that was coming from.

  • Dave Reams

    Another way of saying to yourself “I’m gullible” is “I tried this with the best of intentions and discovered it wasn’t something I want to continue with so I’m putting it down and leaving it behind me while I continue to live life in another way”

  • 9001
  • TrishRan

    One way to convince oneself of one’s own gullibility is to keep in mind that even brilliant scientists can fall victim to wishful thinking (the story of Blondot, who at the end of a distinguished scientific career failed to vigorously test the N rays he “discovered” shortly after the discovery of X rays, is very instructive).

    In fact, the scientific method is the best way humans have ever devised to separate observable fact from wishful thinking.