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Atack: Why those who try to save Scientology from itself are doomed to failure

Jon_Atack3Jon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than three years he’s been helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

I left Scientology because I believed in Scientology. The “Church” was clearly not following the strict policy laid down by Hubbard. It was not about to “maintain friendly relations with the environment and the public” as Hubbard’s “First Policy” demanded. David Miscavige had appeared unannounced, and without sanction from Hubbard, as far as we could tell. He was an unknown who had somehow replaced Hubbard’s chosen heir, David Mayo.

The organization was “down-tone” – somewhere around “blame.” Policies on justice had been flaunted with a list of over 600 people who had been expelled without charge, let alone a committee of evidence. The fundamental right to be faced with an accuser and allowed to speak in one’s own defense had been removed.

My first mission was to talk to some of those so wrongfully “declared Suppressive.” Yes, I felt some trepidation, but I was convinced that I could “confront” any Suppressive. I actually found that the first “SPs” I met were all supportive of the aims of Scientology, all believers in the “Technology” of Scientology, and all friendly. They were a long way from the snarling, rabid demons I had been led to expect.

I wrote to Cyril Vosper, the author of The Mind Benders, who was involved in Scientology for 14 years before leaving in the late 60s. I told him that we had liberated the “Tech” from the “Church” (I would not have dared even think of it as a “cult” back then).

I came to know Cyril relatively well. He was a charming, articulate man with an impish and intelligent sense of humour. I will never forget his response to my first missive. He did not think that the “Tech” could survive outside the “fascist” environment of the “Church.” That gave me pause for thought, because I had to agree that Scientology is not in the least bit democratic. It is an authoritarian belief system governed by a paramilitary group, after all.

Every belief system has a context. While Christianity was imposed on populations, on pain of death, thinking was stifled. This is a negative reflection on those who used Christianity to control people, not upon the tenets of that faith. In the context of the Church, it was considered righteous to burn disbelievers alive. Scientific inquiry and personal hygiene were off the agenda.

Is it possible to extract a belief system from Scientology, without generating a monstrous organization? Will the Independents turn into mini-Churches as they grow in followers and funds? Is there any context in which Scientology could be helpful to the world?

It is fairly well known by now that I disbelieve in Scientology. Although I am hesitant about certain of its practices, I would not ban any of its beliefs, and, yes, when consulted by the Hamburg government, I told them I opposed any ban.

I’ve seen victims of the Purification Rundown and am aware of a number of deaths associated with it. The first two were on the very first Purif at Saint Hill. I also knew an intelligent and articulate martial arts black belt who came back in a wheelchair, barely able to articulate a thought.

Dr. Angela Harris gave a matter-of-fact and conclusive presentation about the potential harms of the Purification Rundown at the Getting Clear seminar in Toronto last June. I agree thoroughly with her analysis: The Purif is based upon untested speculation and has no rational or scientific basis.

I have also had to help with acute psychosis brought on by OT III, so I feel that this practice should be restricted. Still, I have long criticized the attempts to ban Scientology, such as in Australia in the mid 60s. If there is a particular practice that is dangerous, it should be restricted, once clear evidence has been shown. Banning a group is not the way to go.

Although I do not want to ban Scientology, I do want to encourage those affected by it to discuss it. Not simply their “wins,” but the actual principles that they have come to believe. I aver that if you take any element of Scientology away from the context of Scientology, it will dissolve in a miasma.

Over 20 years ago, I analyzed Hubbard’s own statements in Never Believe a Hypnotist; Hubbard leaves no doubt that his processes are hypnotic in effect. Indeed, Scientology is nothing more than a series of hypnotic procedures that cause euphoria and heighten the willingness to believe. We became addicted to it, because it made us high. Our “reality” is measured against Hubbard’s tenets rather than the real world – where claims have to be justified with evidence.

If you collected all the cognitions from every auditing session there ever was, you wouldn’t have enough to make a single decent revelation, because those “cognitions” do not add up to a theory of relativity, an engineered bridge across an imaginary abyss, or even a mess of pottage; it remains simply a mess.

The most common cognition is “Ron was right….” In the context of Scientology, this is a supporting strut, but the truth is that Ron said we should be self-determined, and agreement with Ron is in flagrant conflict with this fundamental principle. What if you saw the world differently, uniquely, in your own way, rather than in the self-framing world of Scientology?

What if Scientology is simply a Matrix? A trip into the mind of a solipsistic narcissist? What if the elaborate map of reality laid out by Hubbard is nothing more than a map? But a map of a country that has no existence beyond the barriers of Hubbard’s imagination?

My jaw dropped when I read the text of a Hubbard lecture in an Advance! magazine, many years ago. I was a true believer, but I feared that Hubbard was making an admission when he relayed Lord Dunsany’s story about the last day of a monastery that had lasted for a thousand years. The end of the monastery had been predicted, so a young man from the village was able to walk past the weeping guards and through room after room until he reached the Holy of Holies, where the force that maintained the monastery’s power was kept. The Holy of Holies was empty. Hubbard was surely pulling our legs, because, yes, the Holy of Holies – OT VIII – does not lead to being “at cause over physical matter, energy , space and time,” as Hubbard promised, but more likely to fiscal and intellectual bankruptcy.

If any of the claims were true – the amazing powers of the Clear, guaranteed after over 270 successful cases, according to Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health in 1950; the ability to “operate” as a “thetan exterior” and cause changes in matter, energy, space and time, by willpower alone; or any of the lesser stages – super-literacy, the recovery of lost education, release from the “hostilities and sufferings of life,” the ability to recognize the source of problems and make them disappear, the ability to communicate with anyone on any subject – if any one of these claims were true, then Scientology would be justified, but these states exist only in the pretend world of Scientology. Scientologists are notoriously unable to communicate either about any subject or to anyone they choose.

Not one of the 270 pre-Dianetics Clears ever materialised. There was no one who had genius IQ, perfect “glowing” health, perfect eyesight, perfect recall of every moment lived, or resistance to disease (including the common cold and bacterial infection).

Every one of these promises was made by a charlatan, who knew them to be untrue. His only virtue is that he wished they were true, and kept working to try and liberate himself from his addictions, his temper tantrums, his “terror stomach,” his poor eyesight, his asthma, his deep and frequent depression, his paranoia and his loathsome behavior towards those who loved him.

Take away the organization, the ardent belief in Ron, the hypnotic euphoria induced so deliberately (yes, Never Believe a Hypnotist again) and what remains? A club where people agree on new definitions for superhumanity and can shun anyone who disagrees? Just today, I received a message from an intelligent chap who asked why he should take notice of someone who “bashes” Scientology.

This rather frames the debate for many who are involved with dangerous ideas: Why should I listen to people who disagree with me? But let me point to a neglected piece of Hubbard wisdom. In the back of Science of Survival, there is a glossary featuring the term “gradient scales,” which is illustrated with a chart headed “evolution of logic.” It lists single-valued logic – the Will of God; two-valued logic – right or wrong; three valued logic – right, wrong or maybe; and infinity-valued logic.

I think these notions derive from Korzybski (one of the 23 men “without whose speculations and observations the creation and construction of Dianetics would not have been possible,” according to Hubbard in Science of Survival). It pains me to point out that this appears to be the last mention of infinity-valued logic in the huge corpus of Hubbard material, and that Scientology is actually based upon single-valued logic: The Will of Ron.

I fear that at some point in the future, a refined version of Scientology might be extremely dangerous. It seems likely that at least one Independent group will follow the heavy ethics route. The rationale is simple: If ethics is out, tech doesn’t work; tech is not working (let’s face it, no Clears or OTs so far), therefore heavy ethics is needed. These people will have their own response to Scientology-bashing (a/k/a free speech), and I imagine it will also follow Hubbard’s directive in Science of Survival that those who are “below 2.0 on the Tone Scale” should have no rights whatsoever. By that time, I hope to have reincarnated on a planet in a galaxy far, far away.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on August 20, 2016 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback and Kindle editions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ +–+ RED X *** Saturday, 20 August 2016.

    Good day Bunkeroos,

    I had thousands things todo on Friday and I missed SFBay big score.
    64 removals in one day. Way to go San Franscisco. 

    Flag the lies, whack a few bait & switch ads : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    • moonnfire

      Wow that is a lot of ads

      • Robert Eckert

        They used to keep a couple thousand up at any given time, now they’ve been whacked down to about 500, still too many but it’s progress.

    • Keep up the good work!

    • Robert Eckert

      counter-ad should be highlighted: http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/grp/5734251363.html

      • Pierrot

        Thanks Robert, taken care of.

        • richelieu jr

          Good to see you @disqus_HktN1Tz4EP:disqus!

  • “Indeed, Scientology is nothing more than a series of hypnotic procedures that cause euphoria and heighten the willingness to believe.”
    Everything else is a sideshow.
    And what makes Scientology especially evil is that they hypnotize people into hypnotizing others, without knowing that they are doing it.
    Self-perpetuating, automated brainwashing.

    • Jon Atack

      So true – I was horrified to find that I’d spent nine years implanting people with Scn ideas. Hopefully, I’ve made amends by now (though, in Hubbard’s terms – and those of any narcissist or psychopath – making amends is ‘down tone’).

      • The automated nature of it blows my mind, and is rather under-recognized.
        I think I may have mentioned to you some time ago about the concepts in “The Information: A History, a Theory, a Flood” by James Gleick about information’s self-perpetuating properties.
        Here we have Hubbard specifically designing a system that propagates and perpetuates a clone of his brain’s operating system.
        Literally “smashing his way into history”, and not just that which is written in books, no?

        • Jon Atack

          Yes, thanks, you did mention Gleick’s book and I bought it and managed the first chapter before returning to my imperative reading (my professional life demands it), but I must dig it out – I liked his Chaos many years ago.

          There is so much in human nature that is habitual or automatic. Hubbard managed to externalise his vulnerable narcissism into a system to clone others into. And he spent most of his time in misery as a consequence – unable to enjoy other people because he was busy promoting himself.

          • “Hubbard managed to externalise his vulnerable narcissism into a system to clone others into.”
            And “The Information” posits that information has a life of its own that seeks to replicate/multiply.

            “And he spent most of his time in misery as a consequence – unable to enjoy other people because he was busy promoting himself.”
            Yeah, people with these disorders are not happy, as much as they try to convince themselves and other to the contrary.

            I found “The Information” to be fascinating also in its illustration of the history of the transmission of information and, by necessity, the encoding and compression of it. From African drums to MP3’s.

            Much information management history there, too, Ada Lovelace, Charles Babbage, Claude Shannon, Alan Turing. A fun and useful book on that level alone.

            • Jon Atack

              I’ll dig it out and read it, thanks!

            • I usually avoid recommending books or restaurants.

  • Edward Whalley

    Psychosis from OT III? It’s OT II that has the weird messages!

    • Graham

      OT III is the Wall of Fire. Xenu, volcanoes body thetans and all that.

      • Edward Whalley

        Yeah, but there’s also the strange implant images, “That’s what you get when you make this Universe–“, and so forth. Xenu just sounds like a quaint fairy tale in comparison.

        • dchoiceisalwaysrs

          And ohhhhh the ‘highs’ which can result from the practice of creative imagination routines. But a foot on the ground would be useful to land on when coming down from those highs if one wants to also live in the real world.

          • Edward Whalley

            Amen!

  • Xenu’s son.

    Hey John.That is a nice description of ot 8.Nothing.The room is empty.And you are bankrupt.

    • Jon Atack

      ‘Scientology is a religious philosophy in its highest meaning as it brings man to Total Freedom’ (Hubbard, Religious Philosophy and religious practice, 21 June 1960)
      ‘An endless freedom from is a perfect trap, a fear of all things … Fixed on too many barriers, many yearns to be free. But launched into total freedom he is purposeless and miserable.’ (Hubbard, The Reason Why, 15 May 1956).

      Go figure… freedom from bank accounts, freedom from family, freedom from friends, freedom from purposeful activity, freedom from happiness, freedom from decision making, freedom from self-determinism – BUY NOW!

  • EnthralledObserver

    It’s interesting considering the individual ‘processes’ of the CO$ that an outsider might immediately look at know they are more harmful than good… and then realising it seems to be quite endemic in pretty much all ‘religions’… and yet none of the indoctrinated participants seem to notice nor care… even when it is clearly hurting them. To think people are doing these kinds of things because someone, somewhere, somehow simply told them to, without critical thought, boggles the mind.
    Of course they are given justification within their teachings… but, surely ‘faith’ ought to be reserved for the immeasurable afterlife. It begs the question… is ‘religion’ overstepping its bounds by impacting life, when perhaps it should be restricting itself to the afterlife only?

    • dchoiceisalwaysrs

      Its a thought.
      But perhaps since mankind uses IDEA-ologies to progress, perhaps it is the duty of us all, to use our minds and expose and discuss those ideas and how they may harm or benefit each of us and mankind and use mental ‘power’ to restrict or not via showing the net social value in any and all ideas. All memes should undergo this process and be supported or diminished in influence as is apropos.
      I see this as a kind of ‘evolution of man’ through thought and don’t forget the heart…compassion and emotion are not to be left out of the ingredients to be analyzed regarding their contributions.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I don’t argue with the ideology remaining as thoughts, contemplation and beliefs… it’s the physical (and often repetitive, trance inducing) rituals that seem to do the most physical harm that perhaps ‘religion’ has no business dictating.

    • Patterson’s Law: all public Internet discussions about Scientology will include a post claiming that all religions are equally bad

      • kemist

        I don’t think this is a post that claims all religions are equally bad, but about how invasive some of them can be in someone’s life or in society in general.

        Cults like scientology are an extreme version of this.

      • That’s OSA1. OSA2 is the Libtards Suck Flamewar Rundown. OSA3 is Teh Muzlims is Keel Us Allz!

        • Mockingbird

          I picture a meme with a kitten with this as a line. Thanks internet.

      • Mockingbird

        False equivalence fallacy.

    • Xenu is my Homeboy

      Not all religions believe in an afterlife though. Some sects of Christianity do not even believe in an afterlife.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Well… then that would mean for them the afterlife is just that after life – full stop.

    • kemist

      Religion used to be how people made sense of a world they did not understand.

      That changed gradually (for most) as more and more parts of the world (notably evolution by natural selection and advances in physics) were explained.

      You’ll find people like Gould who say that the domain of religion is that which has not been explained by science – the so-called Non-Overlapping Magisteria stance or NOMA. The problem with that is :

      – As time goes on, this “domain” is shrinking

      – The answers science provides are often quite a bit out of sync with the human emotional needs behind the questions. Often, those questions don’t make any sense based on how the world works, as they are motivated more by the quest for human-level meaning than by the desire to know the truth

      – The answers science provides are sometimes very difficult to understand by someone lacking the proper background. For instance, while some advanced physics concepts can be more or less grasped with analogies, without the math, they are often less than convincing

      That’s why religion will never be neatly constrained to its neat little “domain” IMHO.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Great points to think about. 🙂

    • Edward Whalley

      Well…I don’t see much that’s harmful at Christ Church. We don’t shun outsiders, or do thoughtstopping. We have sin, and confession, both corporate and private, but in neither case do we keep records of this. About the closest you get to a mantra is the Rosary Society. If you press one of our more scholarly members, you will probably get admissions that yes, the Bible is wrong on one or more points, and the Christian tradition is just as, or more important than blind acceptance of a group of writings by some especially warlike Middle Eastern tribesmen. At no place are you told that playing with your willie is wrong, and we have a good number of beloved members who are gay.

      On a positive note, the services are very beautiful, and you get to hear the 1500 year old Christian corpus of music in the setting for which it was intended. In case you aren’t familiar with the Anglican Mass, it’s a two-part spectacle wherein three chunks of Bible are read (typically Old Testament, New Testament, and Gospel), the sermon is preached (which must bear on one or all of the readings), public prayers are said, and climaxes with corporate confession and The Peace, where you shake hands/bear hug/smile and wave to as many people as you can reasonably reach in two minutes, and the Lord’s Supper, wherein one is made symbolically one with Jesus, and therefore with God with a small cracker and a sip of Tawny Port. Heady stuff! You also get a ready-made ‘family’ if you don’t have one already, as much volunteer work. humanitarian efforts, and opportunities to take classes (again, free or mostly) as you can handle.

      The main difference between Christ Church and the New Haven Org is that while we will tell you every last bit of what I just did for free, you have to go up to OT VIII. spending at least $500,000 to learn that Hubbard is a God. And you aren’t, and will never have anything like a Clear’s powers, never mind an OT’s. Whereas our morality is to honor God and to love your neighbor as yourself, theirs runs that you should lie, backstab, and steal from outsiders, inform on your friends and even your family, and honor Hubbard by “a birthday surprise of an enemy’s camp put to flame.” Not even the most warlike of Psalms goes that far. Trance is not always bad, sometimes it can help you realize “Thou art That”. No, Scientology is in no way typical. It’s an outlier’s outlier, and should be treated as such.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I did say ‘most religions’… so I’m sure there are ones that might not interfere in life… and certainly some are worse than others.
        But even simply ‘praying’ might be considered harmful, if the members of that religion put too much emphasis on the act and supposed result of doing so.
        I’m certainly not suggesting I know where to draw the line between what are just ideas and ideals to live by versus what’s ritual (harmful or not)… just food for thought.
        🙂

        • Edward Whalley

          Well, the old Spanish proverb goes “Pray as if everything relies on God, work as if everything relies on you.”

    • I see what you mean… if they only stick to their fairytale about what is going to happen when you die and don’t interfere with your current life. Not much harm would be done! And this leads to the observation that religion is only to control the way people live their life before they die! Scumbags 🙂

      • EnthralledObserver

        It feels that way, yes… and I am not saying I know where precisely the line ought to be drawn or how it could be drawn… I see both value in no religion as much as I have seen in the value of some religions for people (specific brands, I admit… there are a few that I see no value in at all), but a civil society seems to need the right balance… though with no real way to measure such except trial and error and tug of war.

        • I do see the value of a refuge from the surrounding society. Some people need that in life, maybe just for a period. But when it becomes a refuge for criminal observants spewing out doomsday prophecies, using loud bells or loudspeakers in the street. I will say – enough is enough! Religion is a private thing. So it should be kept in private, not public!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe.
    Atack sets fire to the shudders of Ole Ron
    Regs hunting like sharks at an Ideal Org.
    I watched Sea Org baubles glitter in the dark on the Apollo.
    All those moments will be lost … in time … like tears in rain.
    Time to cry.

    I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe.
    I’ve been Offgrid on the Journey into Time.
    I’ve stood on the back deck of a cattle-ship bound for the Perdition Camps of RPF.
    I’ve watched the Wall of Fire of ProminentCyst being flung into the void.
    Waylaid Wog-rigs doing thrust spins on a spaghetti nebulous lawsuit.
    I’ve seen it. I’ve felt it. Big things. Crazy things. Unbelievable deals.

    Fudge shakes at Nom Nom 9 with Kirstie. Uncool rice men in a rice city. A space snake. An ass shaped like a ball sack
    I bankrupted clam people, the loons of Androgeny.
    I propped no clear con-fusion tombs on the glossy pill yogurts of the pieceful ronbot men of an Aggro aria.
    I watched good replicants lie for oily prophets.
    All those moments will be lost in time …like tears …in rain.
    Time to cry.

    • Techie

      But Pan, is it true? Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (If anyone is puzzled by that google Philip K Dick and “Blade Runner”, the famous tears in the rain speech) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoAzpa1x7jU

      • You’ve not experience Blade Runner until you have watched it in the original Lego (that’s two geek references for the price of one…).

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ule_plKQ6_w

        • Jon Atack

          How moving… I can see why they adapted it for Blade Runner…

      • Jon Atack

        Yes, made me think of Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner, too. Scn is the sci-fi dream of a paranoid narcissist. Still, at least he isn’t coming back…

      • April Moonlight

        Blade Runner is my all-time favorite dystopian movie. Harrison Ford!

      • Ella Raitch

        Yes, fabulous reminder to watch this one again

    • Lousy Ratatouille
  • OOkpik

    Solipsistic narcissism is what passes for God in Scientology.

    • The conclusion of Hugh Urban’s excellent book is that Ron did achieve the ability to modify the reality of his followers. (I guess that should be “mind-fucked followers.”)

      • dchoiceisalwaysrs

        And although I have never read it I do like the Title. ‘The Mind Benders’ , it is so very appropriate.

      • Jon Atack

        Shame that he calls it ‘a new religious movement’ in the title and then spends over 200 pages to conclude that it shaped itself to fit legal definitions of religion – which I think may make it a religion, but certainly a false one. I wasn’t ‘mind-fucked’ (I didn’t work on staff) but i do regard Hubbard as a spiritual vampire and reconstructing my ‘reality’ was a grand experience after the invasion of his somewhat simplistic ideas (spiritual kindergarten, as John Ausley put it after leaving the Commodore’s staff). Just one of those Madame Blavatsky scams… but with horrifying consequences.

    • Bo

      I had to look up solipsistic😏

    • Mockingbird

      Hey I resemble that remark.

      • Spike Robinson

        ouch. That one hurt.

    • Jon Atack

      It is. And cloning is the process that takes place among members, who will either develop as Good Ron (our ideal figure) or Bad Ron (the real thing). Just look at the hostility and Hubbard-like carping of some of the poor exmems. Talk about passing on entheta!

  • Without a high control environment to enforce the group think / ethics it wouldn’t be the mind-fuck perpetrated by the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology and so I don’t worry about it. As for the people who feel that there is something to be found in $cientology, it won’t matter what I think, but I hope they pick their heads out of Ron’s arsehole and stop to smell the flowers.

    • PickAnotherID

      The few “good ideas” found in $cientology are invariably stolen from someone else, repackaged by Hubbard, then claimed as his own.

  • dchoiceisalwaysrs

    “Hubbard was pulling our legs…….” . I suppose what else are we to expect from a confidence man, who’s characteristic behaviour was driven by the stance that he was to assume Authority and find and use whatever tools to he could, with the help of others who were interested in the mind but with virtuous motives to help in mind, and use those tools to continue and bolster his confidence trick regardless of the dire consequences to others..

    Thank the goodness in you Jon and all who helped along the way to bring us to the day when there is enough verified data for all who choose to do so can become aware of, what scientology does and is, and be or not be a buyer.

    As to banning, well the practise of bringing about torts and harm is against the law and should be so dealt with accordingly or if that road has become uninhabitable then the court of public opinion and education is an alternate path which practically all connected to this site are utilizing. I raise a toast to a greater justice for all.

    • Jon Atack

      I am reminded of the ominous origin of the phrase ‘pulling our legs’ – when friends would pull the legs of a victim of hanging to hasten death. Gallows humour indeed! But not really to the point here.

      Thank goodness for all of the people from Dr Joe Winter in 1950 to the present day who have spoken out (as Hubbard said, people have died because they opposed him, and he was talking about Winter). I relaunched my Facebook page a week or two ago, realising that it is safe for people to friend me now without them being subjected to noisy investigation. How baleful the influence of Hubbard has been.

  • OOkpik

    A good dose of Jon Atack is a great way to start the day. Thanks, Jon.

    • Jon Atack

      Thank you.

  • Kim O’Brien

    it really is no wonder that out here in the real world , scientology / ists …are not taken seriously at all . Ever .

    • Jon Atack

      Only by the IRS and the various governments that have rolled over and given them religious authentication. Carl Rogers and Fritz Perls both took Scn seriously and made positive comments. Harder since true information was put in the record, but there are still people out there protecting the rights of such groups – including academics like James Lewis, Gordon Melton, Eileen Barker and a fair few others. I think you are confusing your own opinion with that of the rest of humanity.

      • Kim O’Brien

        Um , no …actually i am not . And if you think that ” the rest of humanity” even THINKS about this bullshit cult as anything OTHER than a BULLSHIT cult , ( if they even think about it or KNOW about it at all ) let alone takes them seriously , then i would laugh in your face and sell you an ashtray so you can yell at later .

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Thanks, Jon. A fascinating read once again. I will never cease to be amazed at your broad experience and ability to use esoteric information as though it is at your fingertips.

    • Jon Atack

      I always keep esoteric knowledge at my fingertips. Best place for it, I feel.

  • . . . The Holy of Holies was empty. Hubbard was surely pulling our legs, because, yes, the Holy of Holies – OT VIII – does not lead to being “at cause over physical matter, energy , space and time,” as Hubbard promised, but more likely to fiscal and intellectual bankruptcy . . .

    Yep, and, as you say, L Ron Hubbard knew it was a scam all along, right from the moment in 1950 when he said he used Dianetics to cure war injuries. Never once did L Ron Hubbard admit that he, personally, was a Scientologist. That’s because he knew that anyone who did was a dupe. And he wasn’t above mocking his dupes. There are all sorts of in-jokes L Ron Hubbard laid down to amuse himself as he led his befuddled flock further and further into fiscal and intellectual bankruptcy. His favourite leg-pulling seems to be the one where he warns his followers against the very thing he is doing to them. He was, after all, the one who declared that “the only way to control people is to lie to them” and then immediately lied to the very people he was addressing.

    One of L Ron Hubbard’s cruelest “jokes” comes at the very end of the long Bridge To Xenu. The end phenomenon of OT VIII is: “Now I know who I am not and am interested in finding out who I am”. Contrast and compare with the singular requirement of a person who was been placed into the Ethics Condition of “Enemy”: “Find out who you really are.” In essence, L Ron Hubbard is giving the game away by telling any newly-minted OT VIII that they are – or, at least, have been – an enemy to themselves by having been so duped they reach the end of his Bridge.

    Wotta guy!

    • Juicer77

      Great comment. May I quote for Tweeting purposes?

    • MarcabExpat

      Amazing conclusion. *applause*

    • PickAnotherID

      Flashing back on really bad 50’s drive-in movie sci-fi films.

      • ze moo

        The only thing missing is giant insects or Godzilla……

        • PickAnotherID

          Or a guy in white space helment wearing a gorilla suit with an obvious zipper on the back.

          • ze moo

            What has better plot devices? Plan 9 from Outer Space or OT 3?

            • It Conquered The World. Nothing scarier than clawed Asparagus.

            • Observer

              The first MST3K episode I ever saw, and one of my top three faves. *sniffle*

              He learned almost too late that man is a feeling creature…

            • villagedianne

              There are MST3K episodes on YouTube.

            • Teegeeack AV Club Secretary

              I think the basic bones of the OT3 storyline could actually be interesting. Strip away a lot of the nonsense about DC-3’s and space opera villains, and stick to the core idea of an enormous trauma in the past still afflicts people today. The fantasy element would be the “thetans”: the disoriented fragments of past lives feeding into the collective memory. Something which can never be completely cured. A melancholic metaphor for the terrible things humans do to each other, and how the sadness and anger reverberate across the generations.

              Like a lot of what Hubbard did, there’s a grain of a great idea in the concept which he then felt the need to absolutely ruin with z-grade crap.

            • villagedianne

              Some say that severe and sudden earth changes in the past traumatized humanity, the memory of which we still carry in our DNA. This may be reflected in the story of Noah’s flood, which I believe was also told in Egyptian legends. Esoteric researcher Barbara Hand Clow has spoken of this trauma in her book, “Catastrophobia, The Truth Behind Earth Changes,” link https://www.amazon.com/Catastrophobia-Truth-Behind-Earth-Changes/dp/B003ZE4JC8 , Here is a story from Space.com, link http://www.space.com/14793-comet-earth-impact-younger-dryas.html , about a possible comet hitting our planet 13.000 years ago.

              http://www.space.com/14793-comet-earth-impact-younger-dryas.html

              A google search also brings up the book “Cataclysm!: Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C.” by Allen and Delair. link: https://www.amazon.com/Cataclysm-Compelling-Evidence-Cosmic-Catastrophe/dp/1879181428

              This article, “Study of Holocaust survivors finds trauma passed on to children’s genes,” in The Guardian discusses a scientific study which may show that trauma is carried in our genes. Link: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes

            • Ella Raitch

              That’s really interesting. Intergenerational trauma is evident in Aboriginal people in Australia, owing to forced disconnection of children from their families, but I’ve never heard of a genetic link, rather thinking it was about the interruption of maternal bonding for very young children

            • MarieSue

              Same with Native Americans…

            • scottmercer

              I wonder if you took the idea if Scientology would sue for copyright infringement?

            • Noesis

              What you are describing is similar to the movie screenplay Hubbard tried to sell to Hollywood titled “Revolt In The Stars.”

              Even though Hubbard claimed that reading the OT III materials before one was “properly setup” (at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars of lower Bridge activities) he was not above trying to sell the same nonsense in a Hollywood screenplay that would (presumably) be seen by millions…who were not “properly setup.”

              I mean really…what’s the difficulty with millions of people dying….if it meant millions of dollars in royalties to Hubbard? Lol.

              The “Revolt In The Stars” screenplay fiasco is all over the web…Google is the shortest route to finding it for those that are curious.

          • Robot Monster! Terrifying(ly funny)!

          • Jon Atack

            Good to know that Hubbard ordered those bizarre 1968 book covers. Exposure to OT III is lethal, according to his skripture, but he was happy to stick a picture of Loyal Officers loading BTs onto a plane for Evolution of a Science. Maybe there’s a Samuel L Jackson movie in there, still – BTs on a Plane…

            • BuberZionist

              In 1975 I had a brief flirtation with Scientology. I took one course, after which a reg tried to hardsell me some far-more-expensive service. When I wouldn’t go for it she sold me $150 worth of books instead. That was a lot of money in 1975. I only made $200 a week. But I never went back to the Elmira mission after that.

              I thought that the books had amateurish covers and illustrations. A man with a white beard was on one, as I recall. If Hubbard approved them then he was weirding people out. But I wouldn’t have walked away just because of the book covers. It was the hardsell that turned me off.

    • Qbird
    • Jon Atack

      ‘The criminal accuses others of things that he himself is doing’ – I used to keep a photo clipped from a Scn magazine with this quote and Hubbard’s ugly mug above it, just to remind myself what was really going on. And you are so right – the EP of Scn is discovering that you have abandoned your self-determinism – along with your cash, your friends and your dignity.

      • OOkpik

        “- the EP of Scn is discovering that you have abandoned your self-determinism – along with your cash, your friends and your dignity.”

        At least that is a conclusion one can come to him/herself, unlike most “wins”, “cognitions” and end phenomena, which are spoon-fed straight from Hubbard’s black “heart”. If it doesn’t completely break you, it can be the clincher that ultimately sets you on the road to recovery.

    • J. Swift

      One of L Ron Hubbard’s cruelest “jokes” comes at the very end of the long Bridge To Xenu. The end phenomenon of OT VIII is: “Now I know who I am not and am interested in finding out who I am”. Contrast and compare with the singular requirement of a person who was been placed into the Ethics Condition of “Enemy”: “Find out who you really are.”

      An interesting approach Vistaril, but the condition of Enemy is broader than you describe:

      When a person is an avowed and knowing enemy of an individual, a group, project or organization, a Condition of Enemy exists.

      The formula for the Condition of Enemy is just one step:

      Find out who you really are.

      The Condition of Enemy is a psychological form of manipulation used to punish and indoctrinate a Scientologist into having the cognition that they are, and must be, a member of their group and not act in ways inimical to the group. The Condition of Enemy is thus a way to inculcate within Scientologists an amoral willingness to do whatever is necessary to defend the group.

      All of the conditions are designed to do this exact same thing. I always found Liability to be truly evil. From Scientology’s website: http://www.scientologycourses.org/courses-view/conditions/step/read-conditions-below-non-existence.html

      Below Non-Existence there is the Condition of Liability. The being has ceased to be simply non-existent as a team member and has taken on the color of an enemy.

      It is assigned where careless or malicious and knowing damage is caused to projects, organizations or activities. It is adjudicated that it is malicious and knowing because orders have been published against it or because it is contrary to the intentions and actions of the remainder of the team or the purpose of the project or organization…

      The formula of Liability is:
      1. Decide who are one’s friends.

      2. Deliver an effective blow to the enemies of the group one has been pretending to be part of despite personal danger.

      3. Make up the damage one has done by personal contribution far beyond the ordinary demands of a group member.

      4. Apply for reentry to the group by asking the permission of each member of it to rejoin and rejoining only by majority permission. And if refused, repeating (2) and (3) and (4) until one is allowed to be a group member again.

      *****
      The EP of OTVIII ” “Now I know who I am not and am interested in finding out who I am” refers to the Scientologist’s attestation that they no longer have a NOT’s case, i.e they have run out their BT’s on OTVII and/or they no longer identify with, or misown, their NOT’s case. In any event, they were mocking up their NOTs case just as they were mocking up their engrams on the lower Bridge. The OTVIII is, allegedly, no longer mocking up case as a thetan and, thus free of the necessity to mock up, is ready to find out who they really are as a thetan.

      In all events, from Confusion to the EP of OTVIII, the person must always identify themselves as a Scientologist and as a member of the group of Scientologists. Hence, this primary and enforced identification falsifies the EP of OTVIII by imposing a prior and mandatory identity upon the thetan: He or she must at all time be a Scientologist, and, this means to be a Scientologist in good standing with the Church.

      However, as the Church can have no members — it being legally incorporated as a non-membership corporation — the Scientologist can only belong to an unincorporated membership organization called the IAS. Thus, at all times the best any Scientologist can ever hope to be is an IAS member in good standing with the Church.

      I say this because, as an IAS member, all levels attained on the Bridge are recognized by certifications issued, or awarded, by the Church. These certs are therefore conditional and subject to immediate cancellation and revocation by the Church should the IAS member fall out of good standing. Thus, given these facts, I suggest that the actual EP of OTVIII should be:

      “As an IAS member holding conditional certs signifying my attainment of Bridge levels up through OTVII, and which certs are subject to cancellation and revocation by the Church should I fall out of good standing, I am, given these caveats, attesting to having EP’d OTVIII and am therefore ready to find out who I am based upon the following terms and conditions:

      A. I prepay for OTIX and OTX and make the requisite donations to move up in IAS status.

      B. I make other donations are required,

      C. I work on my local OTC as required.

      D. I do the GAT II Purif and SRD as required.

      E. I sign all bonds and nondisclosure agreements as required.

      F. I undergo all sec checks as required prior to being invited onto OTIX and OTX.

      E. Any cognitions I have on OTIX and OTX are in full conformance and adherence to the EP of OTIX and OTX as stated in the secret, copyrighted, and RTC-licenced sola scriptura. For truly, to have any other EP would be a grave error and subject me to the cancellation and revocation of my certs and the forfeiture of my eternity.”

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        This all makes the Wright interview of Sarge all the more important.

        Hubbard admitted to Sarge that Hubbard was despairing that he’d failed at all of it.

        His admissions to Sarge ought to be turned into OT 9, and let OT 9 also be the new Scientology Intro Course promo piece, and just give away the fact that Hubbard admitted failure at all of it!

        Tell everyone at the start that Hubbard was despairing and thought he’d failed, at the end of his life!

        Let everyone coming into Scientology for the first time hear that Hubbard final admission to Sarge!

        • Lady Squash

          Hubbard did fail and one should be told that upfront.

      • Noesis

        Very true.

        However one could alternatively take the streamlined route and have the ultimate cognition…which is…”Scientology is a pile of deliberate nonsense” and just walk away…looking over ones shoulder occasionally…while always being in a “position to return fire.”

        Thanks to Hunter S. Thompson for that last bit.

        Lol.

        • scottmercer

          If you assume Scientology is a pile of nonsense and walk away immediately (a reasonable assumption based on the insane twitchy affectation of most Sci recruiters), which is what 99.999% of all people do anyway, then those people have won. And saved $500,000 to boot. To quote WOPR from the movie Wargames: “The only way to win is not to play.”

        • Lady Squash

          Love Hunter S. Thompson. Just saying…

        • BuberZionist

          When did Hunter S. Thompson ever write about Scientology? I want to read that article if it’s online.

          • Noesis

            He didn’t.

            The quote about “returning fire” was actually a Doonesbury parody of him via the character “Uncle Duke.” It was an unrelated gag…but still funny.

        • Noesis

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    A terrific essay from Jon. So many talking points but I loved the story about the last day of the monastery as told by Lord Dunsany. What a great analogy for blind faith.

    • Mockingbird

      He’s written on that before. I don’t remember where but he explained it at length.

      • Jon Atack

        Oh, go on, search the site, Mockingbird. I’m far too lazy, but, yes, it’s on here somewhere.

        • Mockingbird

          Uh…that could be a quite a search if it was in a comment or e-mail. Yikes.

          • Jon Atack
            • Mockingbird

              Thank you.

              Here’s the quote:

              Here is an extract, in Hubbard’s own words:
              Lord Dunsany tells one of the most wonderful stories about a monastery which was scheduled to fall one day. This monastery was up on a high hill. A rumor and a legend had gone forward for many centuries that on a certain day the monastery would fall. Finally, the day came and one of the peasants in the valley walked up to the monastery and walked in the front gate.

              He was quite astonished to find no guards on duty because the guards were back in a courtyard weeping because that day the monastery was scheduled to fall … And he walked on into an inner sanctum sanctorum, sanctorum plus and finally came down unguarded corridors to the largest central room of the entire place, where the mystery of all mysteries of all mysteries was kept.

              And there at the far side of the room it was obvious that the mystery was behind these huge black curtains. He walked over and he looked at the curtains and thought, “Well, it’s a very adventurous thing to do,” but the monastery was scheduled to fall that day, so he ventured to do it. He reached up and pulled the curtains down, and there was nothing there. And the monastery fell that day.

              For Scientologists, the great mystery behind the curtains is “full operating thetan.”

            • Mockingbird

              Thanks again. I have found some very interesting details recently in reviewing several things you alerted me to. The Games maker tape pdc 39, the Skipper letter, the affirmations and several quotes on the pdc and bc collected by Jachs as well.

              I feel with the ones you collected between your Scientology Mythbusting articles and Never Believe a Hypnotist article and the ones Jachs presented at ESMB Hubbard’s culpability and competence as a student of covert hypnosis are fully established.

              Looking at it again after reading the works of others really reframes the whole Scientology experience. After reading Festinger, Lifton, Singer, Lalich, Frankl, Cialdini, Aronson, Stout, Lakoff, Eagleman, Hoffer, and several others Hubbard is obviously a fraud and false prophet.

              He really told us what he was up to with a bit of a twist.

              RON THE HYPNOTIST
              Structure/Function: 11 December 1952 page 1

              „All processes are based upon the original observation

              that an individual could have implanted in him by hypnosis

              and removed at will any obsession or aberration,

              compulsion, desire, inhibition which you could think of – by hypnosis.“

              Hypnosis, then, was the wild variable;

              sometimes it worked,

              sometimes it didn’t work.

              It worked on some people; it didn’t work on other people.

              Any time you have a variable that is as wild as this, study it.

              Well, I had a high certainty already –

              I had survival. Got that in 1938 or before that. And uh…Ron Hubbard

    • Jon Atack

      The other one is the story about the fish that are trapped by the shadow cage – which is a stupid story, but explains something about our capacity to trap ourselves; given a little help from Our Founder (who art scattered all over the Pacific).

    • Mockingbird

      Here is an extract, in Hubbard’s own words:
      Lord Dunsany tells one of the most wonderful stories about a monastery which was scheduled to fall one day. This monastery was up on a high hill. A rumor and a legend had gone forward for many centuries that on a certain day the monastery would fall. Finally, the day came and one of the peasants in the valley walked up to the monastery and walked in the front gate.

      He was quite astonished to find no guards on duty because the guards were back in a courtyard weeping because that day the monastery was scheduled to fall … And he walked on into an inner sanctum sanctorum, sanctorum plus and finally came down unguarded corridors to the largest central room of the entire place, where the mystery of all mysteries of all mysteries was kept.

      And there at the far side of the room it was obvious that the mystery was behind these huge black curtains. He walked over and he looked at the curtains and thought, “Well, it’s a very adventurous thing to do,” but the monastery was scheduled to fall that day, so he ventured to do it. He reached up and pulled the curtains down, and there was nothing there. And the monastery fell that day.

      For Scientologists, the great mystery behind the curtains is “full operating thetan.”

  • PickAnotherID

    After reading this, what came to mind is a bit from Spock’s Beard – “The Man Behind the Curtain” that fits Hubbard like a glove:

    My little white lies
    Are all getting colored in
    My impromptu alibis
    Well, they’re wearing mighty thin

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWvQ4T87w0E

  • MarcabExpat

    if any one of these claims were true, then Scientology would be justified

    — well, it would at least be real. I’m not persuaded that an argument can be made that it can be justified. Even if you could provide all these miracles, doing so would not justify authoritarianism. And that is what Scientology is, as Jon so eloquently deduces in that penultimate paragraph.

    And I think that Milestone Two is already doing its best to prove Jon’s final hypothesis.

    • Kim O’Brien

      oh god …they actually say on the web site

      ” This is an OT group ”

      you would THINK that maybe they could be a crime fighting group . You would THINK they would be using their powers to find missing children or something .

      It’s like watching 45 year olds playing Dungeons and Dragons …and thinking that it’s real .

      So much for world domination

      • PickAnotherID

        Well, if OT stands for Obnoxious Twits maybe their telling the truth.

        • Jon Atack

          No, it stands for Obedience Training – a term used by dog handlers – who would never subject their charges to anything as destructive as Scn!

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Well and I was thinking of any one of the claims were true, at least it would have more members!

  • ze moo

    Jon gives the clampire credit for its modus operandi, hypnotism with thought reform with some hypnotic euphoria thrown in for the only positive self-reinforcement the ‘chirch’ offers. The ‘tech’ only offers a framework for seeing and judging the outside world. A world that has to be closed off for the minions of Lron. If the blinders come off, the minion escapes.

    • Kestrel

      I think some of the minions already removed their blinders but cannot escape out of fear.

      • ze moo

        That is the ‘control’ in ‘high control’. When your business is kept afloat by other clams and your children have been ‘shanghaied’ into the Sea bOrg, you wear the iron collar of Lron. Getting that collar off is very difficult.

      • Jon Atack

        I think so too. When I met Vaughn and Stacey Young, they both told me that they’d individually decided to leave seven years before they did, but dared not tell each other for fear of the RPF and the routine destruction of their marriage (one of the actual ‘ethics’ practices).

    • Jon Atack

      As he said, the maker of games need not follow the rules, and the players must keep the rules hidden from the pieces. The rules are hidden in plain sight – make money, make more money, make others produce so as to make even more money – and DM is the only player. The blinders too often stay on for a lifetime.

  • PickAnotherID

    Later folks, today is “International Geocaching Day”, which this year coincides with the towns annual scavenger hunt, so they decided to combine the two. Gotta finish my coffee, find the GPS, and I’m outta here. (f5)

    http://gatetoadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/InternationalGCDay_2016.jpg

    P.S. If Hubbard could dodge trains on Venus, I’d like to see this in my lifetime:

    https://d3mo08i005h0zn.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/AprilFools_2016_GalaxyCaches_SocialMedia_vFINAL_Blog-800×450-1.jpg

    • So, it’s like Pokemon Go, only real. How weird. Real things.

      • Juicer77

        I’ve been a Geocacher for years. It’s so much fun, many of the finds are puzzles that teach you about the places and people you are visiting. They also do Cache In Trash Out where people clean up the areas they search in. 🙂

        • Graham
        • As usual, I was just being snarky. I’ve heard of it since it became a thing back in the 90s. It sounds fun and I appreciate the clean up part. I’m on my way to my office to clean up all the booze bottles and food wrappers and other waste from the planters in front of our building. #incomeinequalitysucks

        • Spike Robinson

          My sister is big into it and has got the rest of the family involved. They have good fun.

  • FredEX2

    BTW,…Simply brilliant enlightening article today by Jon. Thank you for such intelligent well expressed food for thought.

    • Jon Atack

      thanks!

  • Kim O’Brien

    in regards to the ” purif” …after already knowing a couple of people who freaking DIED

    ” I also knew an intelligent and articulate martial arts black belt who came back in a wheelchair, barely able to articulate a thought.”

    Really ? And what was done to help him ? Any follow up on this ..like ..AT ALL ? Got a name ? Any follow up ? Can he walk ? Did anyone DO ANYTHING ???!!

    I am ALWAYS FLOORED when i read scio’s drop a line like this …and it is NEVER followed with…
    “And then i called an ambulance “

    • Yeah! i was thinking that too!

    • Jon Atack

      I didn’t know anyone who died, I found out about it about five years later, and my informant refused to identify them because he was implicated. The chap in the wheelchair had returned from Flag after almost 150 days on the Purif. I’m not sure how an ambulance would have helped – he was in the care of his wife. It would be wrong of me to name him – and probably not in the least helpful, these 35 years later. If he or his family choose to do something, I’d be happy to help.

      • Kim O’Brien

        oh , OK . So nada . And your ” source ” helped either kill them …or did not call for help …so they do want want to ” implicate themselves” . OR …they were another lying POS involved in the cult . SO …we can’t verify ANY part of your story . Not that i don’t think scientology kills people …and not that i don;t believe that there is a douche scio who is STILL protecting their own ass …even when peoples lives are at stake . But …when you state crazy shit like that …people are gonna ask for follow up .And proof . There are enough horror stories that actually have it .

      • Kim O’Brien

        half the year in a fucking sauna and no one noticed . Yeah …okie dokie

    • Spike Robinson

      you can rest assured that if anything could have been done *at the time* for any of the people Jon met, he would have given the shirt off his back for them. He did so for hundreds of exiting Scientologists, at his own expense and often at great risk, weathering endless legal battles that left him bankrupt and his life demolished. So I don’t think that Jon has been inactive or negligent in helping those who need help.

      Unfortunately, those who work against the CO$ often find out about the injuries (and deaths) of friends and acquaintances weeks, months, or even years after the fact, when nothing can be done. We do what we can, when we can.

      • Kim O’Brien

        The ONLY people abusing scientologists ….are scientologists . No ..i am not ” rest assured “

  • FredEX2

    Jon, since you have invited commenters today to discuss what Scientology practices they would want banned, there are a number of policies they follow that qualify …but I’d like to start with the 2 most important to me personally. These are the practice of encouraging / enforcing disconnection and the criminal practices of the ‘Fair Game’ policy that is most definitely still used against certain critics.

    I have personally been a target of both of these things.

    Here’s a little of the story and something I wrote in the wee hours this morning to a Bunker member ‘J Swift’ addressing a brilliant comment he made in yesterday’s forum discussion. ( edited a little to add a few thoughts ) I thought it might be something that would reveal just how brutally cruel and inhumane these particular practices of disconnection and Fair Game are…to those individuals deemed an ‘enemy’ and are caught up unaware on the receiving end of these hideously sick, criminal and devastating policies of CoS…and carried forward with particular glee…by David Miscavige who signs his name on these special Fair Game orders himself.

    Previous to 1997 I knew absolutely nothing about Scientology. Even if I may not have embraced their ‘beliefs’ I most likely would have been their friend. Now, I realize it was…in a strange sort of way…a good thing they chose not to befriend and recruit me. I had successfully written legislation to ‘preserve the family’…and had been working on other social issues,…and very well may have been misled into helping further some of Scientology’s causes as well. Keep in mind that 20 years…or even 10…there was still not a lot widely known or written about their policies. I had a relatively sheltered life, and although I knew evil existed ‘somewhere out there’…I didn’t know Evil personally. Now I have a great deal more experience and an education I wouldn’t wish on anyone…for which I’ve now become grateful.

    In reply to J. Swift’s astute comment yesterday this is what I wrote below:

    “I’ve been awake since 3am…partly due to a big thunderstorm overhead…but more bc I have been laying here since the wee hours…considering more in depth what you have written above.

    I was one of those who experienced Scientology’s incredible Fair Game psych warfare tactics used by OSA and their volunteers… (that you speak of)… that truly are terrible, life altering ‘just short of death’. And for these years in the aftermath I have struggled not only to survive and maintain my equilibrium in the face of enormous loss and extreme anguish these people caused me and my son and my family…but to find the answers as to why.

    By all rights I should hate these people…but I can’t, … ~instead I became one of them…to understand them. I didn’t just learn the teachings and the ‘group think’ and tech. I came to know many of the people who are still in Scientology…and some now thankfully out. And I came to realize there are also good people in this group…tho misguided…who are completely unaware of the dark side of Scientology…The day a fellow Scientologist… with one foot already out the door…told me that she knew…and had known for a long time… everything about my life and that I had been a target of Fair Game ( something I NEVER spoke about while a Scientologist…even in auditing ) …and she confirmed what had happened to my son had been deliberate as another means to destroy me …was the day I left…it was the last piece of validation about something that I already knew. I just needed a Scientologist to say it outloud…Tho I still get calls from the local Org, from LA, from Flag…and even attempted visits from someone who came here from RTC…I have never returned. It was enough.

    I have wondered most of my life about what may be wrong with me when it comes to understanding the concept of ‘hate’. I simply don’t grasp the meaning, inspite of ‘word clearing’ ….I don’t understand what it means to ‘hate’. For whatever reason…as hard as I try…I cannot ‘hate’ a person or a group. But I can hate what they do and what they have done.

    What I do know keenly is the depths of the meaning of sorrow…and an anguish so immense that years ago I wanted to run to the top of a mountain and scream the pain out and let it echo in the caverns of the mountain… ~instead of letting it continue to reverberate thru my heart and soul. Instead I tried to run from the pain and fear that was caused me… as far as I could get….and ended up in another country…with all I had left in the world in a backpack and $1.35 to my name…Literally.

    I have been laying here in tears…remembering people & things that no amount of auditing or lifetimes will erase… The utter cruelty and evil that human beings can do to one another…just short of killing them. The story of how this Cult tried to destroy my life so thoroughly…just for writing a law about the preservation of families… bc the very premise of that law got in the way of their ultimate agenda….Illustrates exactly what you have said. How dare some unknown housewife & mother successfully write and pass legislation to keep families intact ( even inspite of divorce )…when Scientology felt it was their right to freely order people to divorce, break up families… alienate and disconnect loved ones ~one from another~ and destroy those bonds!

    Because I had written a law about ‘putting kids first’…and protecting them…and it represented everything opposite of what they actually do behind the facade of supporting these very ideals..such as Scientology’s devalue of the family, of the importance of our bonds, and indoctrination of children, ~limiting and discouraging their formal educations, rights, and enslaving them to work long hours for a cult…and taking them away from their own parents…etc….I was deemed an ‘enemy’ and a potential threat to Scientology’s secretly fascist delusional & grandiose plans to divide and conquer and take over the world.

    One of their means to accomplish this agenda is to cause disconnection and ultimately weaken not just individuals, but the bonds that make us families, communities and a society that could stand up united against them to stop the progress of their goal. And for those they fear may have influence not under their control…who might get in their way…they met out the crimes and evil practices of Fair Game…some so unspeakable…to silence their potential ‘enemies’ or critics.

    When I would attempt to tell about what had happened…I would overwhelm myself and others with the details…and end up sounding practically incoherent. Trying to tell the absolute truth…in a world where most prefer only the short acceptable truth…is difficult. What Scientology’s darkest most evil…and their minions do to others is unimaginable… designed to be unbelievable…so most won’t believe it. And it becomes hard to tell to those who don’t want to hear. It is a long and painful tale… but also one of discovery about things I never knew existed in others…both the darkest of evil in some…and the most loving goodness in others…and the strength & perseverance in myself to heal and find my way back from that ledge after a battle with the dark side. It has been a long journey home…

    ~Someday… perhaps…I will “begin at the beginning and recount it.”

    • daisy

      ((((hugs)))) I am so sorry for what they have done to you. I would like to hear that story some day, when you are ready to tell it.

      • FredEX2

        Thank you Daisy. Hugs are good medicine. ❤️

    • Harpoona Frittata

      “The story of how this Cult tried to destroy my life so thoroughly…just
      for writing a law about the preservation of families… bc the very
      premise of that law got in the way of their ultimate
      agenda….Illustrates exactly what you have said.”

      That absolutely does sound like a story that needs to be told in detail! Coerced and enforced individual instances of disconnection, forced abortion, mandated divorce and other forms of family disruption are evil enough, but the purposeful and calculated targeting of an individual and her family for drafting and championing legislation designed to protect the rights of children and families is a qualitatively worse form of evil, imo.

      That’s because without the safeguards of law to protect children and their families from such abuses, not only is $cn enabled to carry on those evil practices, but it also erodes the protections of law afforded to children and families caught up in other authoritarian cults, such as Warren Jeffs’ fundamentalist Mormon polygamy cult, which continues to survive, despite Jeffs’ incarceration.

      One of the very best ways through the residual trauma and depression that cult survivors often experience is to speak their truth publicly and to dedicate their lives to seeing that others are not similarly victimized.

      No one can change the past, but the future need not be a continuation of what has come before.

      • FredEX2

        So true. ((Hugs)) 🌺

    • aquaclara

      Oh, sweetie, you never deserved any of their fair game abuse tactics. So glad you are home now after an impossibly tough fight. I understand what you mean by sounding practically incoherent trying to explain things. How frustrating to not even begin to be able to articulate something that has caused so much pain.

      There is not a week that goes by here where I learn something that sets new lows even for Scientology. Some of this comes from Tony’s stories, but if I think about it, much more comes from the experiences of those who were in and have the courage to comment here. I’ve been watching this damn cult since they landed in Clearwater, and the stuff I saw then sounded unbelievable — and yet, here, we all know it to be true.

      I hope that if you do decide to recount your story, you’ll talk to Tony. He’s good at listening, and understands this stuff so well.

      But mostly, I just want to wish you peace and send you hugs and flowers for even getting this much out there. And thank you for thinking of the kids.

      • April Moonlight

        aquaclara – so sweet and caring. love the bright flowers photo.

      • FredEX2

        Thank you for your kind words Aquaclara. Hugs back atcha ((❤️))

    • Missionary Kid

      J. Swift is actually Jeffrey Augustine.

      • FredEX2

        ^^^^^^^^
        Yes. I know. ~I seem to be the last to know that…~seems everyone else knew. 🤓

      • Mockingbird

        Spoiler

      • Jon Atack

        He could write a book called Gullible’s Travels perhaps… or is that the other J Swift? (and, no, I am just making a joke – Jeffrey is far from gullible but I couldn’t resist the pun. Forgive me).

    • FredEX2, You are correct about this:
      “What Scientology’s darkest most evil…and their minions do to others is unimaginable… designed to be unbelievable…so most won’t believe it.”

      Most of what I say to others regarding the church is not even 1/2 way duplicated. That’s OK. At least when they hear the word scientology or l ron hubbard they have heard it was a disaster for one of their friends.

      At 12 I came back home after a summer away at my Grandmas and told my mom that uncle Ronnie had molested me, my mom looked through me told me to get the milk ready for dinner. I was 12 and should have learned then that it was up to me to sort out my own life. After a few years I figured out God was not going to do it, drugs didn’t do it, scientology didn’t do it. Well OK, I guess it truly is up to just me.

      In the now 6 years since finding the church was at least squirrel (Amy’s book) and then the 3 or so years since learning lrh was a farce I have worked out some things for myself to make my self better. I’m educating myself. I’ve sorted out the truths that I do know are true and it’s not too many after all these years. Now I’m trying really hard to finally listen to others. Quit finishing their sentences for them and just listen.

      I take pride in the fact that despite this period of great sadness (losing my religion, husband, kids, business) that at 64 I am the forbidden ‘open minded’ and I can all by my self make changes for the better to my life and those around me.

      You said “..and although I knew evil existed ‘somewhere out there’…I didn’t know Evil personally. Now I have a great deal more experience and an education I wouldn’t wish on anyone…for which I’ve now become grateful.”
      Good for you, really truly good for you. grateful is a wonderful way to be (((Hugs and happy Satuday)))
      I love thunderstorms.

      • FredEX2

        Hi Cece. Thank you for your reply and some of your story too. Yes, I’ve found that one of the keys to surviving evil…is to be grateful for lessons learned after facing it. Gratitude neutralizes evil and helps us as we recreate our lives and let go of the past.

        I cannot forget…but I can come to a greater wisdom about the forces of evil in some…and remember with a greater depth of gratitude for the good…that in my hours of suffering…was revealed by the best in the others who cared. ❤️

        • Jon Atack

          Some Sufis pray for hardship because it is the only way to really learn. Victor Frankl’s work is still a testimony to compassion achieved through suffering (though he was a good man before his time in Dachau and Auschwitz – but he transformed the experience into something life-affirming).

          • FredEX2

            Yes, it’s interesting how extreme suffering & hardship enlightens some…and embitters others. It is a fearsome thing to confront sheer evil and stare it down…and a painful process to recover your spirit afterwards. It takes a lot of courage to handle such things…yet not retaliate in kind. It defines the element of greatness in a person’s character to walk thru a firestorm…and be scorched and scathed…but not let it change his soul to hatred.

            I have longed for my life as it was before all this…it has changed in every way…but I’ve also come to recreate and appreciate my life as it’s become…and the knowledge and awareness aquired. When you begin to heal, you also realize…if you can hang on long enough and survive it… that tho others may try with all their might to destroy every aspect of who you are…they cannot really destroy YOU.

            • Kestrel

              Well put.

            • Jon Atack

              I agree with you and you make the point well.

              So much depends on childhood. I had a good one – or at least a good family (I was never keen on school – liked the kids, was utterly puzzled by the bullies known as ‘teachers’) If we attach properly in childhood, it gives us the chance to learn from our mistakes and our suffering. Fascinating to read James Fallon’s Psychopath Inside – a neuroscientist researching serial killers who found he has the same brain atrophy (in the paralimbic region) and the same genetic alleles that he had found in his subjects. He admits to being selfish, taking risks that put others in danger and the gamut of behaviours, but he is not a sadist and has become a ‘pro-social psychopath’ as he puts it. Until late in life, he believed that nature is everything, but his own condition convinced him that nurture is vital.

              I was steamrollered by Scientology – I lost my house, my marriage, my health and then I was sued by my best friend with the support of several other former friends (an OSA agent warned me of this plan, but I didn’t believe it). It took me over a decade to recover (thus my silence on Scn matters from 1996 to 2012). I did feel bitter, but my good childhood meant that I never once wanted revenge on anyone – even the awful OSA people who had campaigned ceaselessly. I’m not sure that I have regained any of my former philanthropy, but I know that happiness only comes by helping others, so here I seem to be again… and I’m very happy when anyone finds what I have to say useful.

              It is also usual for the vivid sensations of youth to diminish. Revelation comes less often and reality slows down our dreaming optimism. But I think there is a depth to our experience that no inexperienced youngster can know. As a child, I felt and I understood as a child – my taste buds were ten times better than they are now, but I did not know how to process those tastes, so my experience of taste is diminished but more subtle (I can enjoy blue cheese now!).

            • FredEX2

              You are courageous and well spoken Jon. I’m so glad you survived and found your voice. Many blessings wished for you.

          • chukicita

            One Scientological concept that I think is among its most damaging to people – because it ultimately relates to disconnection and fair game – is what I’ve heard termed the “doctrine of exchange.” Without it, there is no need to constantly be at war with everyone.

            • Len Zinberg

              “The Greatest Good” concept is all too often used to justify what would otherwise be viewed as unconscionable evil.

            • pluvo

              “The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.. “is used for justifications and also for manipulation.
              This is also contradicting:

              As soon as you knock out one of these dynamics on a human being and say,
              “For this individual, this dynamic cannot possibly exist,” you get
              trouble, because they all get knocked out. They come down to the
              same level, in other words. If you cut out half of one dynamic, you have
              cut out half of the rest of the dynamics. This package of dynamics is
              very vital to the survival of an individual

              Trying to sort it out can get you to spin till you can’t think straight anymore. And of course you cannot discuss it because ‘verbal tech’ and then get told to look for your ‘MUs’.
              I sometimes thought sarcastically: “Yeah right, the greatest good for the 3. dynamic only.”

            • Jon Atack

              I guess that the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics meant that whatever was good for Hubbard was best for us all, as he was the only person who had any value in his eyes (the only creator of ‘Tech’). Wikipedia says that Bentham’s original formulation was ‘The greatest happiness of the greatest number is the foundation of morals and legislation.’ I have no idea how we might measure that happiness.

            • Jon Atack

              I agree – it is an invidious concept that precludes either compassion or charity. Just another aspect of Hubbard’s narcissism – his navy records contain a slew of letters from unpaid creditors – Hubbard never paid a bill he didn’t have to and never offered anything in exchange for the hundreds of millions he took from good people (at La Quinta he even declared that the crew should have no toilet paper – they had to steal phone directories). Good belief systems say such things as ‘to give and not to count the cost’ and I’m told that Muslims are urged to thank the beggar for accepting their gift.

            • chukicita

              From what I understand and remember of a poster named Warrior’s posts to a.r.s. years ago, he used to work in Finance offices and did a great job in those posts of explaining Hubbard’s written policies and procedures for not paying bills and basically mismanaging funds, down to telling vendors who balked at extending credit that perhaps they weren’t large and important enough to handle Scientology’s account. Of particular interest was a number system at the bottom of paperwork dealing with accounts receivable that showed a hidden money flow. Something the IRS would definitely have an interest in.

      • Jon Atack

        I love thunderstorms too! Please contact me via Tony – I’m gradually collecting testimony about Hubbard’s appalling sex life, if you feel ready to tell someone.

        I rejected all of Scn, back in 1984, because I realised that you cannot simply look at it piece by piece without finding some other way of looking – Scn changes your perception of the world and as you say, forces you to finish sentences for people rather than hearing what is said. The phobia of ‘psychs’ is key – I am still opposed to ‘psychic surgery’ and the excessive use of ECT and severe pharmaceuticals, but this is psychiatry not psychology, and psychology has far more useful ideas than Hubbard ever had (if indeed he had any). So confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance and the fundamental attribution error are all relevant to understanding the total freedom trap.

      • OOkpik

        (((HUGS))) Your courage and journey have been truly inspiring.

    • Jon Atack

      Of course, you are right and thanks for contributing. I always want to hear comments, because informed though I may be, there will always be more to learn. I left because of disconnection and the SP policy. I too was subjected to Fair Game – for almost 17 years. Eugene Ingram traveled the globe to collect stories about me and even tried to intimidate my aged parents (my dad was in very poor health at the time, but a full-blown psychopath like Ingram took no notice of that. Most of the people involved in Scn are good – which was precisely Hubbard’s intention (he privately told a reporter that he loved to ‘reel in the clever ones’ like any immature narcissist determined to revenge himself on the smart kids…). Only at the very top has utter corruption set in, but that was the case from the first day, when Hubbard opened the doors of the Elizabeth Foundation and said to Don Rogers ‘Let’s sell these people a piece of blue sky.’ So much blue sky! Fair Game is a criminal evil, as is the whole notion of the SP declare. Richard de Mille – who wrote Science of Survival and two other ‘Hubbard’ books from the Founder’s random dictation – wrote to me to agree that Hubbard was the only true Suppressive (de Mille spent three months alone on Cuba with Hubbard, so came to know him pretty well, before training as a psychologist and becoming a professor).

      Recovery from Fair Game is difficult. Even if you manage to avoid post traumatic stress disorder (I did), there will still be post traumatic stress. Ironic that Scn causes a PTS condition! My book was called Hubbard Through the Looking Glass prior to publication, because Scn is exactly the opposite of what it claims to be – it is the road to slavery, not freedom.

      Hubbard also said, ‘If you become too incredible, you become invisible.’ I learned early on to confine myself to the easily proven information about Hubbard, because no one in their right mind would readily believe the horrors that he visited upon all around.

      Bless you for your compassion!

    • OOkpik

      May life bring you and yours a beautiful rainbow and an end to the storm. <3 <3 <3

      • FredEX2

        <3 to you too OOkpik ❤️

    • Cynthia

      Fred you are a much better person than I. The CoS has my 87 year old father in their sites,because my mothers chemo nurse is a scientologist and she decided that my mom had meant to name the CoS in her will. It is long convoluted story that at this point I have been asked not to talk about in depth. I can talk about the scene the nurse made at my mothers wake demanding money and some land. She is a horrible,awful,hate filled women she kept telling anyone and everyone how awful my Dad is and how one of my brothers was/is stealing money from my mom and that my mom was afraid of my Dad and all of her children on and on she went. Here’s the deal this women messed with the wrong people at the wrong place. My Dad was a career diplomat so he knows and hangs with some interesting people a few of whom were at the wake and saw and heard all. Finally it was a couple Secret Service guys who got the nurse out of the house. Also one of my brothers is career at the Deptment of Justice. So now the story continues but I can’t talk about it yet. I hope and prey that soon I will be here posting about the CoS experiencing some serious hurt. Fred I really admire you for not hating a person and I really am kind of ashamed,but I really hate that nurse right now.

      • FredEX2

        Cynthia, I’m so sorry you and your family were put thru this…especially at the time of your mother’s funeral. The woman who came there and was so inappropriate…well, it shows how utterly selfish and crazy some individuals can be. Scientologist or not…and whether she came on behalf of CoS…or was lying and actually wanted the money for herself….her conduct was lacking in any semblance of social grace and respect… ~for your Mother or your family. As you describe it…it was beyond inappropriate and comes close to being ‘extortion’. It sounds like she had some major issues going on at the very least. Such disgusting behavior. And I can understand why it upset you. I have found that often when others misbehave towards us…we needn’t always do something about it. Sometimes all that’s necessary is for us to go about our own business or sit back and ignore them…let this nutty woman jump around a bit and others will notice her craziness eventually.. …And there’s always legal action and restraining orders if this woman continues to harass and stalk your family and demand money. If anything, it sounds like this crazy person should be pitied. Who does this stuff?…at a funeral no less. I’m sorry for the loss of your Mother. 🌺

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      I am so sorry that you were a victim of these evil tactics and so glad you are out and on the Bunker. When you are ready, your story will be powerful, and the telling and the truth will strike another blow against their evil.

      • FredEX2

        Thank you for your reply and encouragement Free Minds Free Hearts. Yours and others comments mean a lot. I love your profile name btw! (((Hugs))) 😊

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          Hugs to you FredEX2! I took Free Mnds from Steve Hassan’s approach which I am using with my Sea Org family member.

  • Ms. B. Haven

    All of Mr. Atack’s posts are good, but this may be one of his best.

    “Every belief system has a context. While Christianity was imposed on populations, on pain of death, thinking was stifled. This is a negative reflection on those who used Christianity to control people, not upon the tenets of that faith. In the context of the Church, it was considered righteous to burn disbelievers alive.”

    My view of Christianity growing up was of Jesus being a simple, kind and loving person going around helping his fellow man where he could. It was in stark contrast with the brutal reality of actual Christianity being practiced by most in the world, and it was also in stark contrast to my Christian upbringing.

    This evokes an early memory of my time in scientology, before Hubbard went into hiding, and the mission network was routed by the ‘finance police’ as heavy ethics were being slammed in by a yet unknown upstart named Miscavige. This was a time when many considered scientology to be fun (at least doing the basic courses and auditing seemed to be that way).

    An unknown (to me) artist had a painting of an auditing session going around. It was a pastoral scene of two guys outdoors with an e-meter (an old Mark V in a wooden case), one auditing the other. It evoked a strong sense of one person kindly helping another who was obviously in need. It was really rather moving. For me, this is what I thought that I had found, a caring group of like minded people who were out to help each other and change the world. But, I was a very naive, early 20-something trying to emerge from a somewhat oppressive upbringing.

    This painting was later ridiculed as being ‘out-tech’ and squirrel. Why? Because there are bulletins on how to set up a proper auditing session and the scene in the painting violated pretty much all of them. Forget the purpose we all had just to help someone.

    Mr. Atack contiunues…

    “I fear that at some point in the future, a refined version of Scientology might be extremely dangerous. It seems likely that at least one Independent group will follow the heavy ethics route. The rationale is simple: If ethics is out, tech doesn’t work; tech is not working (let’s face it, no Clears or OTs so far), therefore heavy ethics is needed.”

    I would posit that “ethics” are necessary for the existence of scientology itself. Hubbard knew this and it’s why he implemented it. “Ethics” is the glue that holds this group together by forcing by threat its members to ‘secure their eternity’. Without the threat of “ethics”, some people would find some small benefit from courses and auditing in the beginning but when reality sets in and there are no promised gains to be had, they would leave the group and get on with their lives. When people leave, so does their money. When it comes right down to it, scientology is all about the money and only about the money. “Ethics” is the cement boots to keep the flock firmly in place and in line. Independent scientology will never survive without “ethics”. Thank the gods for that.

    • Robert Eckert

      For the first few centuries, Christianity was banned and you would be tortured to death if you *did* convert to it and were caught. It took a thousand years for the ironic reversal to set in, where Christianity was a totalitarian government and tortured people who *didn’t* believe. Of course, Scientology started out aspiring to the end point.

      • Missionary Kid

        Academics are reexamining the tales of persecution of the early Christians by the Romans. In particular, the stories of Christians being fed to wild animals in the Colosseum. IIRC, from what I read, there were very few or no records of that being done to Christians.

        Apparently, just feeding ordinary people to lions was not what the masses wanted. They wanted the professionals putting up a fight with some skill. They wanted real gladiators, not amateurs.

        There were political reasons for persecuting Christianity by the Romans, but there were ultimately political reasons for supporting it, because it became a means of control of the populace by the state.

        There is some skepticism about the level of persecution of Christians, and the reason was not Christianity per se, but some of the practices of Christians that were contrary to the rules of the state.

        • Gerard Plourde

          I tend to think you’re analysis regarding persecutions is correct. Rome would only become interested if a particular individual or group was visibly acting in a way perceived to subvert Roman authority or to disturb the public order. I also think that famous persecutions that we do know about, like those of Nero or Diocletian (which was actually instituted by his son in law Galerius), came at times of social upheaval and manifested themselves like the pogroms of Czarist Russia -government sanctioned abuse of people whose loyalty to the ruling order was suspect, which distracted people from the real inequities they might be experiencing. A modern example would be the Jim Crow South’s pitting poor, exploited whites against similarly poor and exploited African-Americans. (I’ll resist the urge to use a contemporary example.)

          I don’t doubt that perceived ringleaders were executed by being exposed to wild beasts in the Coloseum. Governments historically used public executions in a not totally misplaced belief in the deterrent factor. And I agree that the spectacle was probably greeted with the same level of interest as a relief pitcher coming in from the bullpen and warming up on the mound.

        • Robert Eckert

          The incident of feeding Christians to the lions did not happen in the Colosseum, but in Lyons (ironically; of course, then it was called Lugdunum unrelated to the word for lion) and was condemned by Marcus Aurelius along with some live burnings in Syria at the time; however, Aurelius did exile several Christian preachers to the silver mines in Sardinia (hard labor, killed some of them) until Commodus let them return in exchange for large ransom payments.
          Persecution was sporadic rather than continuous. Nero blamed the then-new Christian sect for the great fire, citing ugly things they prophesied about Rome (Rev. 18:18 is a good example), and using them as human torches in his garden. Domitian persecuted Christians and Jews without much distinguishing them. But Trajan tolerated them on a “don’t ask don’t tell” basis, and the Severan dynasty officially said it was OK as long as they didn’t make converts (same rule applied to the Jews). During the 3rd century anarchy, short-lived emperor Decius accidentally sparked a persecution by requiring loyalty-oath ceremonies involving the burning of incense to those past emperors who were deified, something Christians refused to take part in even if this meant a treason charge.

          • Jon Atack

            Quite so – though it may have happened elsewhere too. The Romans brought the Asian lion to extinction through its use in the arenas. Thanks for the detail!

            • Spike Robinson

              and here I thought the Asian lion was just phased out because they were eating up all the prophets.

            • Len Zinberg

              It’s a genuine pleasure following such a knowledgable and lively discussion. You may find it of interest that just a week ago, observant Jews recalled the destruction of the Second Temple, in 72 AD, by fasting. When I was last there, a tunnel had been excavated below the Western Wall which dated to the First Temple period, built by Solomon, almost a thousand years earlier, and destroyed by the Babylonians. Biblical archeology is a hobby.
              To date, no archeological record has been found that corroborates the Exodus narrative, in Egypt, although the Israelite conquest of the Canaanite tribes is well documented.

        • Jon Atack

          The victors write history. As you say, the persecution was fairly brief (the account of the road to Rome illuminated by miles of Christians burning on crosses during Nero’s reign may be true, however). It was part of the larger persecution of other Jewish sects (Christians worshipped in the synagogue for about thirty years after their founder’s death – his brother James, who headed the first Church, and the first martyr, St Stephen, were both actually rabbis). Jews had rebelled against Rome, so it was nothing personal. During this period, Christians did everything they could to dissociate themselves from their fellow Jews. After Christianity was adopted as the state religion, the ‘circuses’ continued every second day in every city of the Empire – and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre was played out to delighted audiences who now claimed to be Christian. As Alexei Sayle said, It’s a funny old world…

      • Noesis

        It’s sort of like what happens to a secular company that achieves market dominance…first they are unknown, then the scrappy underdogs, then the heroes, then they become monopolistic at which point they attract unwanted legal attention…and eventually they are reined in and go into “muddle along” mode.

        Think about the history of Apple…and how they have had extreme ups and downs and then ups again…and the way the corporate culture morphed through the various incarnations.

        Every dog has its day…now even Trump has actually “apologized.” Lol.

      • Jon Atack

        The persecution of Christians (and Jews) happened under Nero and Diocletian (causing the Revelation to be written about Rome – the beast with seven heads), but it wasn’t a daily occurence and the Christians who eventually won out – under Constantine – were of the martyr sect – the ones who refused to make obeisance to the Emperor’s image every year. Those under Valentinus in the late first century were not persecuted, because they did not consider this obeisance significant. In fact, as soon as Christianity became the state religion – at the beginning of the fourth century – there was a purge of ‘Philosophers’ and ‘Gnostics’. The accepted sects – as opposed to those ‘barbarian’ Arian Christians the Goths who took Rome from the Empire – instantly set about persecuting those who disagreed (let him who is without sin cast the first stone, indeed). The Iconoclasts then went around destroying Classical culture – knocking the noses off statues and burning down the library at Alexandria. Power tends to corrupt and absolute power absolutely so. Thank heavens that Hubbard’s PR, marketing and Admin tech doesn’t work, or he might have actually achieved power and done even more damage. Steve Cannane’s upcoming book on the history of the dread clut in Oz shows just how incompetent Hubbard was – almost forcing a ban through his ‘handling’. But if someone competent comes along, we had all better watch out. ‘We have ways of making slaves here’ PDC. True that.

        • Robert Eckert

          Valentinus was somewhat of a Hubbard, selling hidden knowledge about layers upon layers of heavens and hells and the true names of their inhabitants and the spells to control them, each layer of knowledge for a fee of course. The Gnostic sects were all boutique religions, no threat to become a mass movement like the catholic (root meaning, “for everyone”) brand of Christianity. Gnosticism was aimed at people who wanted to feel superior to the rabble.

      • for a weird continuum of persecution, try ‘Europe’s Inner Demons’ by Norman Cohn

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe%27s_Inner_Demons

    • Jon Atack

      Thanks! If anyone out there has Story of a Squirrel Part Two, I’d be deeply obliged. My copy was long ago stolen by a visiting agent (of whom there were many over the years). It remains the finest spoof (even better than Diapetics by Ira Wallach) and is recounted by a CS Int – Ray Mitberg – who is declaring himself Suppressive before anyone else does. One of the mock Hubbard quotes that I often recall is about the confusion between Tech and Ethics: ‘Tech is to make money – boxcar loads of it – and Ethics is to deal with anyone who finds out about this or me.’

      As Cyril Vosper told me, back in 1984, Scn without fascism is an unlikely prospect. I well remember the emergence of Avatar, in the late 80s, which promised an end to the Bridge (and a few months later, another further end, for another $500) and then turned on defectors with threats about their ‘ethics files’ being published. I wonder about anyone who would choose the acronym APIS so their use of disconnection is unsurprising (unless it is a subtle reference to bees, rather than ‘I’m taking APIS’).

  • Len Zinberg

    Jon Atack concludes this brilliant essay with a warning that is amply supported by the past behavior of Scientologists. It is not a rhetorical device, but a genuine concern that is being voiced.
    I have an additional concern; as Scientology continues to unravel, the probability of a “Jonestown cognition” taking hold looms larger.

    • Graham

      The more Scientology gets rendered down to the hard-core deluded the more likely the ending could be extreme.

      • Scott H

        Since the Kool-Aid drinkers firmly believe “We come back” wouldn’t committing suicide be counter productive? Since they don’t seem to be able to choose the form of their return what if they came back as a large fluff of pocket lint or – heaven forbid – a journalist?

        • Graham

          On the other hand, if they come to the view that they’ve f***ed up this time round [ie Teegiak is currently irredeemably abberated] they might take a warped view that suicide would allow them to come back at some future date when the Wogs of Teegiak might be more receptive? Who knows.

      • Len Zinberg

        Agree. It is a matter of greater or lesser probability, as I see it.

    • Techie

      As long as Dave Miscavige is in charge there is little danger of mass suicide. Dave might cast his adherents to the winds and run off with the cash, but he is not really a true believer.

      • Jon Atack

        You’re probably right – but he it is not unusual for a conversion experience to change even a hardened narcissist. I’ve seen a few exmems who returned against all the evidence because they were unhappy or unwell and had no other solution. Cialdini gives a remarkable example in Influence, where he and a logic professor attended a TM recruiting talk. The logic prof managed to tie the two presenters in knots, but people still signed up. Asked why, the answer said that if they’d waited till tomorrow, they would have thought it through and left it be, but they didn’t know of anything else that might help.’ So imagine DM on his death bed realising that his overts against the Tech have caused his demise, so he’d better take the Dev-OTs to join Ron (and Captain Bill) on the Mothership. It may also be that the Org will collapse and the SO be persuaded to spend the next almost billion years scouting the galaxies to catch Ron and find out why the tech doesn’t work. The belief in reincarnation is dangerous of itself – in tradition it is called ‘the fear of the eternal return’, but hippies and scnists think it is a jolly thing, so may not have the right attitude towards bodily survival. I do know of cases where Scnists killed themselves believing they would reincarnate.

    • kemist

      For a “Jonestown cognition”, you need initiation by leadership.

      Miscavige loves the lifestyle and power he has over his remaining minions, and does not seem to believe in Hubbard’s crap much. I doubt he’d choose to make all that go in flames for some ideological reason.

      To protect his claim to the money OTOH, it is a possibility. But the SO slaves don’t have any traction on that front. Would be focused on very few specific targets.

      • Jon Atack

        But now can we predict the actions of an uneducated and utterly self-centred man? Let’s do everything we can to help SO members escape and recover, just in case. Precautionary principle and all that.

    • Jon Atack

      Yo Len, always good to hear from you (for anyone out there who doesn’t already know, Len is a splendid chap). I’ve been worried about the Jonestown effect for many years. I was glad when Hubbard didn’t decide to take everyone with him – like the Bo Peep or Heaven’s Gate group – but when DM’s health fades, who knows. Captain Bill was half way there with his half-assed belief that Hubbard was waiting on the Mothership, and he gave up his own life because he refused surgery believing he could audit away the tumour…

      • Len Zinberg

        Thanks Jon. The other concern I have is with the alliance Miscavige has forged with the Nation of Islam, which has its own set of anger management issues.
        The possibility of a synergistic force multiplier effect involving external violence is a not unreasonable cause for concern.

  • Graham

    Update on Tom Cruise: over at Mike Rinder’s blog today Scientology is denying they’ve told Cruise to disconnect from his daughter. So they’re saying it’s nothing to do with them: which makes him just a common-or-garden asshole deadbeat dad? http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-non-disconnection-policy/

    • Scott H

      As THE Big Being TC has far more important matters to attend to than the health and welfare of lesser mortals. Of what these matters are our limited and crippled meat brains simply can not comprehend.

  • Beth

    If the young villager could see that the Holiest of Holies was empty, then light was there. It was empty of everything but light.
    There’s some parallel there with Schrodinger’s cat and collapsing the wave function, but that’s way over my head. and Lafayette’s. We are both in the remedial physics class.
    (hi bunker friends- just getting back from vacation – missed hanging out here! )

    • Hmm. Nude Hubbard statues?

      • Graham

        Nooooo!

      • Beth

        breakfast delayed: two hours

      • They’d probably look a lot like the Trump statues that popped up across the country recently.

        • Missionary Kid

          The artist endowed the statues with micro penises. According to one source, the New York Parks commission took its sweet time removing the statue, and the spokesperson made some indirect snarky comments about the person represented by the statues.

      • Mockingbird

        Brilliant/terrifying.

        • He can leave his commodore hat on.

          • Qbird

            lol

      • Jon Atack

        Don’t even think of it – bad enough have the genital-free DM at St Hill.

    • Jon Atack

      My wave function recently collapsed too, though I object to experiments that put cats into boxes.

  • A little Argon activity this morning:
    http://umbraxenu.no-ip.biz/mediawiki/index.php/Special:Contributions/EyeOfArgon2

    The CHHS California rehab license db played with the address data format, again, but no real changes.

    Per Wickstrom’s Serenity Point picked up another drugs-on-site complaint, but it was quickly dismissed by James Hoyt, Regulations Officer, again. https://w2.lara.state.mi.us/VAL/Files/ViewDocument/34151

    • “The Facility made the decision to seek psychiatric help for the client in question on December 7, 2016.”

      Unusual, even without the temporal typo.

      • Robert Eckert

        They made a decision that they are going to offload this client next December?

  • Kim O’Brien

    The reason why blasphemy laws existed ( and some still do ) and were so severely punished ( and some still are ) …is because there were ..and still are SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN SUPERNATURAL BULLSHIT

    • Missionary Kid

      Blasphemy laws exist because the basic idea behind them is, that people are to believe, or at least, to act in the way that is prescribed. IMO, it’s not a matter of not believing in the supernatural, but of believing or acting differently. Why else, for example, historically, there were, and still are, battles fought between groups making up the different sects of Christianity or Muslims.

      To deny the supremacy of the Pope, or suggest that Jesus was married is offensive to different branches of Christians, would be considered blasphemy.

      • Gerard Plourde

        Officially, Catholics view a denial of Papal supremacy as being schismatic (breaking of unity), not blasphemous nor heretical.

        • Kim O’Brien

          i think they call it ” a disagreement between bretheran ” ( sp ? ) Sounds super civilized …LOL

          • Graham

            That would be an ecumenical matter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptd_h0dF7NE

            • Kim O’Brien

              he had Hubbard mouth LOL

          • Gerard Plourde

            Sort of. They agree on basic beliefs but don’t agree on the Pope’s role in the scheme of things.

            • Kim O’Brien

              we call those people Protestants

              edit : or practical catholics …as opposed to Practicing Catholics

            • Gerard Plourde

              Not exactly. Protestants tend to also deny an article of faith that Catholics would deem to be essential, like the need for one’s faith to be manifested by action, the effect of Original Sin on human nature (Protestants believe it made human nature totally depraved, while Catholics believe it broke humanity’s intimate relationship with God) or the number or effect of sacraments as well.

            • Graham

              Are those the people who nail their testes to church doors?

            • Scream Nevermore

              That’s theses, Graham! Luther nailed The Ninety-five Theses to a church door!

            • Techie

              Darn, and I always thought the preacher was saying “feces”. Shows how much I know.

            • Scream Nevermore

              95 faeces – it would take more than incense to disguise that stink!

            • Graham

              Oh! And that bit about him being on a diet of worms. I suppose next you’ll be telling me I got that wrong too?

            • Scream Nevermore

              That might be true – I daresay if you sautee them with some mushrooms and a bit of garlic, they might be tasty!

      • Scream Nevermore

        Legally, there’s no such thing as blasphemy and blasphemous libel in England and Wales any more, though one particular religion keeps trying to bring that law back. While the law in Scotland does recognise blasphemy, no-one’s been prosecuted for it since 1843.

    • flyonthewall

      I think it has to do more with the people in power protecting their legitimacy. The religion, doesn’t matter which one, is used to give the people in power their authority and right to rule, so criticism of the religion is a direct threat them. Therefore they have to make blasphemy laws in order to protect their power.

      • Missionary Kid

        You put it better than I.

      • Kim O’Brien

        if you won’t believe us , than you will fear us . Once you believe us …you MIGHT be able to fear us …just a little bit less . Oh …and we can take your stuff anytime we want no matter what

        yup 🙂

      • Robert Eckert

        They were not only protecting their right to rule you and dictate your behavior, but also their right to take your money: the medieval church was owed the “heriot” (a death tax payable to the priest who conducted the funeral) and “Peter’s pence” (a penny for the Pope collected at various occasions) and suchlike taxes (collectively known as “tithes” although it was not anything nearly as simple as a flat 10% income tax would have been), and an even faster way to get in trouble than to question a theological proposition was to resist these monetary impositions. Henry VIII’s break with Rome had little to do with theology, something to do with his desire to divorce his wife, but even more to do with the streams of money (not to mention the huge tracts of land!) that he got control over.

    • gtsix

      Sing it sister.

      Mohammed didn’t fly a horse to beaven. Horses don’t fly.
      Jews are not chosen by anyone for anything. Not special, just regular folk like the rest of us.
      If transubstantiation is real, christians are cannibals. (And 3 gods in one is still 3 gods, so that’s not monotheism, fyi)

      Neener neener. Glad to live in a country where I cannot legally be murdered for not believing these mystical hilarities.

      (Edited the horse flying person. Need Moar coffee)

      • Sounds like you’d enjoy my friend Eli’s God Awful Movies podcast. One of the funniest things on the web where Eli, Noah Lugeons, Noah’s wife Lucinda, and Heath Enright mock moronic movies of all faiths. godawfulmovies.libsyn.com

        • gtsix

          Thanks, will check it out.

          I rarely mock anymore…. I’m too old to care what mystical beliefs one has… the only time I care is 8f one attempts to make me follow these mystical rules.

          • You just have to like no-holds-barred humor. They all have big, progressive hearts and foul mouths.

            • gtsix

              Oh I do. If you can’t give and take banter… we can’t be friends.

      • kemist

        If you’re catholic, you’ve got many more than 3 gods – all these saints with each their specialty. Gods or not, catholics do pray to saints. Actually, I don’t remember ever praying to God directly. Instead we’d pray to Mary, or the specific saint we thought could intercede for us.

        When you think about it, there is not much difference between catholicism and hinduism in that aspect.

        • Jimmy3

          I mostly prayed to St. Anthony, the patron saint of lost causes (and lost items). Mostly because there was a convienent rhyme you could chant while you’re looking for something.

          Tony, Tony, come around, something’s lost and can’t be found.

          It works, too. You just chant that until you find what you’re looking for, and eventually you find it.

          • Graham

            Isn’t it a lost cause, praying to the Patron Saint of Lost Causes?

          • kemist

            In my family, we were particularly fond of Saint Anne (Jesus’ grandma) for some reason.

            There’s a big cathedral dedicated to her near my city. You’d pray to her for healing, and at some point they used to keep crutches and other things people had left there – supposedly after they were healed.

            Last time I visited (even an heathen like me can appreciate the art in that place) they had removed them.

            • Graham

              Were there any wooden legs?

            • Kim O’Brien

              I always liked her myself …the thought of jesus having a gramma , always comforted me .

              Of course , then came the …” women are gross ” messaging . Kinda ruined it

            • Gerard Plourde

              Would that be Ste. Anne de Beaupré?

            • kemist

              Yep.

            • Robert Eckert

              The church on Mackinac Island is dedicated to St. Anne too.

          • Scream Nevermore

            I thought St Jude was the patron saint of lost causes? I have an ongoing conversation with him – 30 years and counting!

            • Kim O’Brien

              me too !

            • Jimmy3

              You’re talking to the wrong guy. if anything is lost, you want Tony.

            • Scream Nevermore

              Yes, Tony finds lost things, but Jude sorts out lost causes.

            • Jimmy3

              Tony hooks it up no matter what’s lost.

            • Graham

              Hey Slappy! Did you hear that? St Jude’s the guy you should be praying to.

            • Scream Nevermore

              I’d rather set St Michael on the little devil spawn!

            • Gerard Plourde

              You’re right, St. Jude is the patron of impossible causes.

        • Gerard Plourde

          The prayers during Mass are directed to God, as is the Our Father (aka The Lord’s Prayer). Prayers to people in Heaven (which is what saints would be) ask that the saint add his or her voice to the petitioner’s request (like a co-sponsor for a Congressional bill).

        • Scream Nevermore

          No, saints aren’t gods. They’re just there to triage all the billions of requests God gets every day!

      • Mockingbird

        Spoiler alert, now the afterlife is ruined. Thanks Obama.

        • What? No boot’s on the Ground? Get out of here…

          • Mockingbird

            Ha ha.

      • Jon Atack

        Bless the Constitution and the right to arm bears.

        • gtsix

          Yogi and Booboo approve this comment.

          And wonder what is in your picnic basket.

          • Jon Atack

            Why hunny of course

    • Jon Atack

      Do not believe? Surely the opposite is what you meant – about 75% of the people on this planet believe in supernatural bullshit. And then there are the other smug bastards who don’t (and, yes, I am among their number, except on a wednesday). I think it is contempt for others that causes the problem, not belief in fairies or body thetans.

      • Kim O’Brien

        yeah …except if someone ELSES belief in body thetans ( or any other bullshit ) drags you to an abortion clinic you do not want to go to ..or if : sins” make you have a baby that you don’t want

        i focus on the 25% that can smell shit from a mile away . I like them better

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    A great Saturday at the Bunker with a really great essay by Jon Atack!
    In $cientology the Holy of Holies doesn’t even need to be an empty space; it’s just something $cientologists moving up the “Bridge” never reach.
    For those seeing it for what it is, the $cientology Holy of Holies looks a bit like this:

  • Noesis

    Jon, thank you for a good essay.

    Agree with you that Scientology is both a failed subject and a deliberate fraud.

    Among the fundamental difficulties in Scientology ever getting “straightened out” are these:

    1) The subject is founded on knowing falsehoods Hubbard first forwarded when he penned DMSMH. It would appear that even he was surprised at the success of the book, yet also incapable of building an organization that would honestly attempt to deliver the results promised in that book

    2) The entire history of and all of Scientology’s various evolutions, tech updates, policy revisions, promotional positionings, edited / republished books, tapes, courses and auditing procedures etc. can be viewed collectively as an attempt to morph a knowing fraud into a protean form that is able to slip through the cracks of the legal structures around the globe that are designed to inhibit…deliberate organizational frauds.

    3) The language of Scientology is the language of intentional deception. The loaded term “KSW” is slung around like an indestructible 20 .lb sledge hammer…but is used in practical terms to camouflage what amounts to a wholesale cyclical change of the fundamentals and practices of the organization every few years so that # 2 above can be accomplished

    4) True reform in Scientology is impossible because there is no baseline of honest conduct to which the organization can “reform.” The larger promises in DMSMH (especially the characteristics of a Clear) have never been achieved, nor have the larger promises of the “states” sold afterwards (from a fixed price list) thus there is no point where honest delivery was occurring. There is no set of procedures or practices that have EVER delivered the larger promises of Scientology…thus it is not possible to return to those practices / procedures…there is only a continuous march toward a “future” payoff (the hallmark of most frauds) with all of the attendant mechanisms necessary to keep the fraud going for another period of time…until…it will need to morph again to stay ahead of the complaints of those who (most recently) discover they have been defrauded.

    An overall organizing explanation for WHY Scientology is the way it is could be…simply…that Hubbard needed to make a living and he found a way to do that. Because of his avarice, his way to make money morphed in protean fashion until it largely mirrored his own complex personality…especially the faults…and it ran its course until Hubbard died…whereupon an equally predatory character (Miscavige) saw an opportunity…outwitted the other nearby carrion-eaters…and assumed the mantel of ghoul-in-chief (and checkbook holder.)

    Because the number of people who have been defrauded by Scientology is so high and because the church is no longer able to silence them all with payoffs or threats, the organization is shrinking. The latest form of organizational existence…no-exchange “status” donations…is close to having run its course and will soon have to be morphed again. At that point Miscavige will probably declare “victory,” depart (willingly or unwillingly) and Scientology will most likely collapse into a state of operations not unlike those sad little Christian Science Reading Rooms one finds parked around in out-of-the-way corners.

    That last bit (a visible collapse) is not a bad thing and most folks (that care at all) will give a Hip, Hip to the outcome.

    • Jon Atack

      An excellent analysis. Hubbard joked about Christian Science in the late 40s and the ridiculous notion that all of our ills have a spiritual origin. When he gave Dianetics away for a dollar he had to create a new philosophy, so he borrowed from Mary Baker G Eddy and Aleister Crowley and made his own version. He was not simply making a living – he ‘spent money like water’ as several people have told me over the years, collecting stacks of suitcases full of $100 bills, in case he had to leave town fast (remember that evil being who did secret acts, so he had to hide, hide, hide, hide, hide?). He left $648 million but spent far more – the clut boasted about his 24-track recording studio, his 2000 cameras, his full size race track, even as they went home for more rice and beans. Money was secondary – power was the thing and part of that power was humiliating hundreds of people on a daily basis. I am also convinced that he was a daily drinker and drug abuser, so i think he was caught up in the process of keeping his own massive withholds unmissed, so to speak (psychiatry very obviously missed that withhold!). He was a sick puppy and smelled very bad (as he said of Merchants of Chaos).

  • BosonStark

    Jon writes, “Indeed, Scientology is nothing more than a series of hypnotic procedures
    that cause euphoria and heighten the willingness to believe. We became
    addicted to it, because it made us high. Our “reality” is measured
    against Hubbard’s tenets rather than the real world – where claims have
    to be justified with evidence.”

    That’s a good short definition, and I’ll try to remember that when people ask, “What is Scientology?” It’s good because it explains how it works. It also accounts for how perplexing Scientology is to outsiders, since not only do Hubbard’s tenets not get justified with evidence in the real world, no ideas of Hubbard have any real influence on the majority of society.

    Unlike Scientologists would like you to believe, Hubbard is not discussed in college philosophy classes, nor are his ideas or farcical “research” (including any done while he was on Venus) considered important, except in cult studies. His influence on society outside his cult has been minimal, compared to people like Freud or Einstein. And outside the cult he’s not in any lineup of philosophers, scientists, war heroes and many other things the cult claims he is or was.

    Some people are so susceptible, they get euphoric on hope before the processing even begins. They get it just from reading the literature, or from something they read in Dianutty. They think, “It’s my reactive mind that’s been holding me back!”

    But come on, it’s 2016. It’s easier to fact check these things now. Well, Scientology is going to do its best to seek people who like to go against the grain, ignore facts, and get involved in something which is controversial and has celebrities they like.

    • Gerard Plourde

      You’re right. It’s a perfect thumbnail definition.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      “…not only do Hubbard’s tenets not get justified with evidence in the real
      world, no ideas of Hubbard have any real influence on the majority of
      society.”

      It is indeed a parallel world in which the $cn cosmology and everything we’ve come to know through science just don’t meet up at all. In fact, the more you know about the history of science and the development of the scientific method of inquiry, the less these two fundamentally different views of reality appear to be reconcilable.

      Back in the forties, fifties and even sixties, when Elron was developing his all-encompassing alt cosmology, relatively little was know about how the activity of the brain enables perception, emotion and thought. Instead of attempting to ground his abstract conceptualizations of the analytic and reactive minds in an understanding of how the human brain evolved, develops and learns that was very rapidly emerging during the late sixties on, Elron chose to completely ignore what has now become the vast and many-branched field of neuroscience, which has provided an incredible amount of knowledge concerning, for example, the neurophysiological basis of memory and how traumatic experience is encoded and recalled.

      Instead of submitting his methods and results to the accepted authorities of the time for independent verification, he chose to create what many in $cn think of as a higher science, or an alternative path to knowing and effective intervention at the level of spirit which need not concern itself with whatever laws or properties of the MEST universe may apply. A kind of ‘end run’ around science altogether and a method of establishing truth value that is based on one’s own subjective experience, rather than the objective methods of science.

      The difficulty with making that move away from reconcilability with the universally accepted methods of scientific inquiry and experimentation is that if your alt theory of spiritual transformation and advancement fails to provide the gains that it’s promised to the individuals who’ve followed his prescribed procedures, then you’re left with nothing but a big “piece of blue sky”.

      Perhaps if Elron had not been so bold as to actually make claims that can be objectively verified (e.g., psychic powers of action at a distance; recall of specific details of past lives; perfect recall) the huge discrepancies between what was promised and what was actually available to be gained and could be demonstrated would never have become so glaringly evident. Other, more modest dualistic religious belief systems have survived, in part, because their claims of disembodied existence beyond this life don’t include becoming super human while still in this one.

      So, if the theory of $cn isn’t reconcilable with science and its practice does not result in its promised results, then, in an age where more and more is becoming known about how the workings of the brain enable mind at every level of consciousness, it is as doomed to collapse as every other abstractly conceptualized, non-empirically grounded theory of mind has before it. And in the age of the internet, when any actual proof of promised super powers would go viral around the world in days, the profound lack of such proof must lead everyone who isn’t hypnotized to the same conclusion: It just doesn’t work as promised 😉

      • Gerard Plourde

        Interesting to think that Hubbard seems to utilize the same pattern of thinking as a Creationist.

      • BosonStark

        In their PR, Scientology wants to be a spiritual science, where the mind (or science) intersects with the spirit, or something. The problem is the you’ve got to be alive and have your mind going, to think about spiritual things.

        Sam Harris makes the case for death being like eternal deep sleep, as far as we can tell. People with brain injuries lose various functions. From the standpoint of the mind and body, it doesn’t make any sense that the entire brain would die, losing its energy supply, but then this thing called the spirit floats away and is totally functional, much like the mind was before death.

        So, if you’re going to think that you are not your body and mind, but instead are just this spirit, I mean, why eat? You need your mind to come up with such an idea.

        People are just afraid this [life] is all there is, and that they really want to live again, or see their loved ones who have died. So it is understandable to hope for an afterlife or another life. But it’s not scientific or proven by anything Hubbard did.

        I think one of the reasons I had no interest in Scientology, after thumbing through Dianutty, was what you mentioned. There were so many advances in understanding the mind, which were taking place in the 70s and 80s, that I was reading about these theories and ideas. Hubbard’s unsupported baloney was too much of a stretch, and also too expensive, and a trap.

        Hubbard ignored scientific advances, and didn’t want to participate in a discussion about Scientology and/or science.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          Excellent points and ones that you do not need any special technical expertise in neuroscience to grasp.

          But even if you somehow managed to miss out on every one of those advances in neuroimaging and neuroscientific experimental results that demonstrate how intimately tied our conscious level experience of thought, imagery, emotion and memory are to the real time changes in various neural systems that specifically underpin and enable them, even then, the inability of those who’ve attested to achieving OT 8 to demonstrate the abilities that are supposed to be gained at that level invalidate its effectiveness from within the circle of belief.

          Unfortunately, the Kool-Aid is so strong that even in the glaring absence of demonstrable OT powers, True Believers who’ve reached those lofty levels of faux enlightenment appear capable of not-ising that fact or have, in some other manner, completely rationalized it. From a safe distance, it appears that about the only spectacularly developed power that these folks have attained is that of self-hypnosis.

          My fear is that hundreds and hundreds of hours of imagining yourself to be possessed by disincarnate beings can actually induce the same psychosis in normal folks as Elron seemed to suffer from as a mental illness for many, many years. If so, then what a tragic irony to spent all that time and money to drive yourself crazy.

          No wonder, then, that lil davey opted out of the whole auditing deal quite awhile back …it’s really tough to run a high-level, big stakes con for decades unless you’re really on your game 😉

      • Jon Atack

        At first, he did posit a purely physical cause for abberation – the term engram means a ‘cellular trace’. When he’d lost Dianetics, he had to find something new and went New Age (to use Crowley’s term for his ideas, whoops). Two of the first five foundations were run by psychologists and there was initially significant interest in his ideas – both Carl Rogers and Fritz Perls made friendly noises about Scn – but he could only survive by inducing phobia of information sources. Psychology too went through a tremendous evolution after WWII – the work of Festinger, Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo et al – Hubbard had to dismiss the lot, and the ‘religion angle’, as he called in a letter to his deputy, was just the ticket. He was obsessed with sounding scientific – Perry Chapdelaine told me about their construction of the Dianetic Axioms (how many of them did you ever apply?) over a bottle of Scotch one night – to seem scientific, without the trouble of experimentation or replication. The avoidance of proof – so that no one will be upset by a demonstration of OT powers – is quite wonderful. Oh, yeh, so the Wizard of Oz is actually a midget on a stool with a megaphone…

    • Jon Atack

      I’m just keen to clear up any misunderstoods, so that no one commits overts against Scn because they don’t understand what it really means (derived from ‘scio’ meaning shadow or ghost and ‘logos’ meaning study, btw – literally: the study of things that aren’t there).

  • nottrue

    Mr Atack and DM in a face to face debate would be priceless

    • Graham

      For that to happen Captain ‘Slappy’ Dave Miscavige would have to find the courage to climb up from his current position of minus 8 [Hiding] on Flubtard’s good ol’ Tone Scale.

      • kemist

        I wonder how it works at these particular tones.

        IIRC, you’re supposed to assume the tone of the person you want to communicate with (or one tone higher) ?

        So at “Hiding” you’re supposed to do what ? Hide from them ? Hide with them ? Sacrifice yourself ? Sacrifice them to Baal ?

        • Mockingbird

          Hiding is below body death. The idea applies to the above death portion of the tone scale and really is used for a small section from about 0.5 to 3.0. Below that a person is almost dead and above that is considered the peak of human potential, as a human.

        • Graham

          Well the next step up is Minus 6 ‘Sacrifice’ (Whatever that means). Presumably you’d have to sit next to Slappy and moan about all the sacrifices you’ve made. “But is anybody grateful? Not at all. After all I’ve done for those CS DBs”. When Slappy starts agreeing with you and moaning about all the sacrifices he’s made then he’ll be with you at minus six and you’ll be ready to move him up to the next level; Minus 5, worshipping bodies. I’ll leave that one to your imagination.

          NOTE: I’m just making this up as I go along. But then so did El Flubtard.

    • The cowardly, little bully wouldn’t have the nads.

    • Mockingbird

      We need a cage for DM. He should not be allowed near sane people.

      • Graham

        I suspect he’s already put himself in a cage of his own making.

        • Mockingbird

          Madness ?

          • Graham

            Feels OK with his sycophantic acolytes around him, but terrified to step outside the ‘safety’ of the little world he’s created for himself. So yes, a kind of madness.

    • Gerard Plourde

      It would be over quickly, since DM lacks any kind of debating skill.

    • Jon Atack

      I was repeatedly offered talk show appearances – three times for Donahue, Rafael once and twice for Larry King in the US. Every show was cancelled because the Scnists refused to debate me. The last time with King, they were setting up the flights when their famous OT III trial attorney (and chairman of the board of Boston University), Earle Cooley, withdrew. I was glad to have scared him off, but I would be happy to discuss any aspect of Scn with its Supreme Leader. Just tell me when (and provide me with bodyguards).

  • Another excellent piece, sir. Thought provoking and discussion inducing.

    • Mockingbird

      Cognitive dissonance inducing for Scientologists.

    • Jon Atack

      How kind, thank you.

  • Mockingbird

    Good morning beautiful Bunkeroos.

    As usual Jon Atack has an interesting article for us today. Most of us here probably already know I was in Scientology for twenty five years and about two and a half years ago I saw the infamous Posse of Lunatics Freedom mag story and was alarmed. I ended up reading the Underground Bunker and with much confusion, anxiety and concern focused on the Scientology Mythbusting series by Jon Atack and read Never Believe a Hypnotist and articles on hypnosis at Lermanet.com and realized that Scientology is entirely a fraud.

    So, I always have a special appreciation and gratitude for Jon Atack’s articles and the Underground Bunker for putting them out. When I first looked outside Scientology tentatively and timidly I wasn’t prepared for the cold harsh truth.

    But Jon presented little bits and pieces of the puzzle, sometimes describing an aspect of hypnosis like the fact that formal hypnosis isn’t the only kind possible or that the main methods of it are confusion (aka contradictions or paradox), repetition, attention fixation (or division or overwhelm), mimicry, or vivid imagery.

    That gave me pause to reflect on the fact that Scientology has many contradictions in it and a class XII auditor once in an interview stated Hubbard’s writings can SEEM paradoxical and contradictory. I reflected on being taken aback when I first joined Scientology by looking through the Tech Dictionary for definitions to Scientology terms and finding many had multiple definitions that completely contradicted each other for the same word.

    I realized Hubbard has plenty of contradictions in his doctrine. He said to not tell harmful lies in the Way To Happiness but in policy said if promotion is higher than delivery we always raise delivery and never lower promotion.

    So, if we can’t make clears rather than admit it, we keep saying we can make clears and try to somehow make it true. That should have clued me in about Hubbard’s approach to life. It’s okay to lie your ass off, if you wish you were capable of doing great things.

    I also easily saw repetition is used almost constantly in Scientology. It’s in the courses, drills, study procedures, auditing and language Scientologists communicate in and think. As Scientologists we studied the same references like KSW and study tech materials on how to study, the barriers to study and word clearing hundreds of times. We practiced TRs for hundreds of hours.

    I could go on but the point is easy for any Scientologist to recall. There’s a lot of repetition in Scientology. And attention is fixed in drills and auditing. It’s also divided as a student has about a dozen barriers to study phenomena to look for constantly, then to pick between three barriers to guide which procedures to use, and a constant gnawing anxiety about being able to instantly answer a spot check for the definition of any word on a course, to avoid the dreaded flunk that results in being sent back to clear the word then restudy from where the word first appeared, even if it was five hundred pages earlier.

    Mimicry appears in the TRs, the language and behavior of Scientologists too as they try to fit in. And vivid images are created in auditing by the imagination of the person being audited, along with Hubbard’s outlandish descriptions in his writings and tapes on his adventures and whole track space opera.

    I read everything on Scientology by Jon Atack I could find. Never Believe a Hypnotist was truly profound for me as it lays Hubbard’s statements on hypnosis next to each other. It made several things clear: Hubbard contradicted himself on hypnosis dozens and dozens of times. He also showed that he knew a tremendous amount of information on hypnosis, despite claiming it isn’t what Dianetics and Scientology are. But in another quote said you are laying in suggestions whether you try to or not.

    I particularly like Jon Atack’s statement today: “Over 20 years ago, I analyzed Hubbard’s own statements in Never Believe a Hypnotist; Hubbard leaves no doubt that his processes are hypnotic in effect. Indeed, Scientology is nothing more than a series of hypnotic procedures that cause euphoria and heighten the willingness to believe.”

    It took a lot of hard looking for me to see that. When you are a Scientologist you usually solve the contradictions in Hubbard’s doctrine on hypnosis by being confused to the point of hopelessness on hypnosis, and dismiss it as “not something we use in Dianetics and Scientology.”

    That’s something many Scientologists and exes NEVER overcome. Or they see hypnosis as only being in some places but not others and won’t dare look at drills or study technology indoctrination to see if hypnosis could be there.

    Frankly learning about hypnosis is avoided in general in society but in particular for Scientologists and exes.

    There’s a wealth of information, including many specific quotes by Hubbard himself to support the claim the processes in auditing and methods in indoctrination both are based on hypnotic techniques.

    In exchanges with independent Scientologists they often try to sidestep the hundreds of quotes by Hubbard and say “intention in auditing and study technology isn’t to hypnotize, and as intention is cause, you can’t hypnotize anyone unless you intend to.”

    It’s a kind of magical thinking. It’s like saying if I shoot a person but don’t intend to harm them my intention will prohibit the bullet from injuring anyone.

    Hypnosis existed long before the term did and worked on people whether a hypnotist intended to help or harm the person. I think intention isn’t cause.

    An act causes an effect whether anyone intended it or not. I understand for Scientologists the possibility that all the euphoria they experience in auditing and on course being due to manipulation of their own imagination and mind with no miraculous technology present can be frankly shattering. It’s worse the more you have invested in Scientology and the more you have reshaped your life and mind with Scientology.

    So, the thought of Scientology and Hubbard being frauds is more terrifying than death. It’s a loss of meaning, identity, values, status and the future you thought Scientology provided.

    • “It is easier to fool someone than convince them they’ve been fooled” (Mark Twain)

      • Mockingbird

        Definitely. The pride of men motivates them.

        • Many victims of cons don’t report it.

          • Mockingbird

            Yes. I have looked at abuse and abusive relationships in general to understand cults and found consistently that victims of fraud and rape and sexual abuse often are ashamed of their vulnerability and never report the crime. It’s horrible to think of their experience and the fact that predators often realize they will never get punished or restrained and keep harming people for years unchecked. Often women and children in particular get blamed for the crimes or accused of lying and seeking attention and money.

            Bill Cosby has had dozens of women come forward and claim rape and sexual abuse by Cosby, but many people go online and say the women are seeking money. Similarly Roger Ailes has had a group of perhaps twenty women come forward claiming sexual harassment and that there are audiotapes for evidence too, but he gwts defended by a presidential candidate who claims he is a good person. Sexually harassing twenty women for decades isn’t my idea of good.

          • Scream Nevermore

            Interestingly, 419 scammers who find themselves being toyed with by 419 baiters can’t bring themselves to tell the baiter to feck off. They go along with them right to the end, as if by pretending that it’s not a scam, eventually that will become true.

            • Graham

              They sound like master baiters.

            • Scream Nevermore

              I worked on one bait that saw a scammer travel to Timbuktoo. True story! And one that I think earned me and my partner the title of ‘Master baiter’! 😉

            • Graham

              Great stuff. Good to hear of scammers being baited. I’ve had a couple of calls from “Microsoft technicians” telling me my computer’s been corrupted. Managed to waste their time for ten minutes or so, which is ten minutes less for them to be harassing others.

      • Jon Atack

        How very true. I’ve been meaning to write something about Christian Science and Scientology for a while, and Twain’s book on the former subject is my main source.

        • Yeah, I’m going to have to get to that.
          He had some sort of rapprochement with Eddy later, from what I understand.
          I’m still savoring volume one of his autobiography.
          One of those books that is so delicious you have to put it down and digest it for a while.

      • Spike Robinson

        Stealing this quote. 🙂

    • Jon Atack

      And, as Hubbard insisted in the early 50s, it is impossible to be a good auditor without understanding hypnosis – because you will see people entering trance and should not audit them. He cancelled Book One auditing because it is hypnotic not long after the book came out. The very statement he made to show it is hypnotic – the flickering of the eyelids as trance/reverie is entered – is contradicted directly in the Book One course introduced in the late 70s (and still in use) which says to look for this effect at the start of session. A mess of contradictions. Anyone interested in my thoughts over 20 years later might look at my latest book, Opening Minds. We’ll have a new edition out (with two extra chapters) in a couple of weeks time. I was highly gratified when a friend who was a Hubbard aide told me that it had helped him to finally understand his time with the Great OT (‘Obedience Trainer’).

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Snippet from a country song:
    Now she’s been crying all the time
    Caught up in a wave of crime
    Ever since she ended up thinkin’
    Mr Ron was Mr. Right

    Helen of Troy was said to be so beautiful she had a face that launched a thousand ships.
    $cientology, on the other hand, is the faith that launched a thousand lawsuits,
    while Lord Hubris had a face that launched 1000 spits.

    Otis sang this for DM:
    Sitting on the crock of the cray
    Watching the tide roll away

    Hey, $cientology, we can see you clearly now

    • Lousy Ratatouille

      (I chose for the Playing for Change version.)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es3Vsfzdr14

    • Mockingbird

      Imagine if selling Scientology had focused entirely on using Hubbard’s mug to lure people in !

  • nottrue

    They go straight for the Credit Cards….

  • Jimmy3

      • Mockingbird

        That guy is a “special” counselor. Maybe he can replace the irreplaceable Tommy Davis ?

    • Mockingbird

      Ouch. I guess a Scientologist could say “you hurt my feelings.”

      • Jimmy3

        Or they could say, “I didn’t believe it! I was hypnotized!”

        • Mockingbird

          Umm. I think if you are hypnotized effectively you do believe it. That’s the point of hypnosis – to induce a trance state with impaired or suspended critical and independent thinking and to increase suggestibility. So if you are suggestible that makes it easy to believe.

          I see belief as belief, no matter how you got there.

    • Techie

      “Everything Thing You Know is Wrong” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

      • Graham

        Everything you know is wrong. Does that include knowing that everything you know is wrong?

        • Mockingbird

          Deep

          • Robert Eckert

            I at first read that as “Derp” 😀

        • Techie

          What I tell you three times is true – You don’t know stuff – You don’t know stuff – You don’t know stuff. Fell better now? I think I can see clearly now, my brain is gone. And I Think, therefore I Eat. These words of wisdom brought to you free under copyleft for any use, foolish or misbegotten, I don’t care. http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/labyrinth_puzzle.png

  • Eivol Ekdal

    I think the story is “How the Enemy Came to Thlunrana”
    from FIFTY-ONE TALES by Lord Dunsany 1915
    http://www.fullbooks.com/Fifty-One-Tales.html

    • Andrew Robertson

      “….. When the awful stillness of the mystery was more than he could bear, Jon Atack from the black-thatched cottage by the five pine-trees went up to the silk pavilion, and with a bold and nervous clutch of the hand drew one of the curtains aside, and saw the inner mystery, and laughed.

      And the prophecy was fulfilled, and Scientology was never more a terror to the people but the Sea Org Staff passed away from their Ideal Orgs and fled through the open fields wailing and beating their breasts, for laughter and common sense was the enemy that was doomed to come against Scientology
      through her southward gate (that was named the Gate of Reason), and it is of the gods but dwells with man.”

      (Slightly edited fron Lord Dunsany’s original tale.)

      Andrew

    • Jon Atack

      Good man! Thank you so much – I’ve wondered for years. Now, do you know who first used OT III in a story? Maybe it was Ron’s own guru Major Arthur J Burks who wrote prolifically as well as sharing his idea of the ‘little its’ with Hubbard…

      • Eivol Ekdal

        To be fair there were previous Bunker peeps who mentioned this story before on one of your previous contributions. I find the other Fifty-One Tale quite interesting too. I just briefly scanned them and it seems Ron may have borrowed a few more ideas from Ed Plunkett and well as borrow some of his writing style. Good to see you Matey!

  • scnethics

    On the subject of self-determinism in scientology, this quote from Chick Corea, who recently went OT VIII again, is interesting:

    ‘I thought to myself, “This is my personal goal: to attain my own independent attitude toward existence and to be uninfluenced by anybody or anything.”
    Well, that has now happened to me big time.’

    Where did he get this idea to be uninfluenced by anybody or anything? From a video he watched on an LRH quote about an independent attitude toward existence.

    Scientology twists around the idea of self-determinism so thoroughly, that after years of involvement you have no notion of what it is anymore.

    • Mockingbird

      It’s a reversal of truth. Hubbard used many and Miscavige does as well.
      Hubbard determines everything eventually for a Scientologist. No free will left.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      My bone of contention in regards to Chick Corea’s fawning praise of scientology is that he gets a pass from criticism by peers and fans because it’s assumed that “prodigious talent” can be complete social flakes and his adherence to the cult is nothing more than an adorable eccentricity. It’s not.

      • Observer

        I have never understood why people tolerate behavior from the “gifted” that they wouldn’t from anyone else. IMO having talent, or a high IQ, or an unusual level of skill, does not exempt the possessor from being held to the same standards of behavior and interaction as anyone else (assuming there is no underlying mental illness which the person can’t help).

        • Scream Nevermore

          Personally, I tend to hold the ‘gifted’ to higher standards, because if they’re ‘gifted’, then should know better.

          • Observer

            I’m not sure how long I would last in the presence of, say, Mariah Carey in diva mode.

            • Scream Nevermore

              Should it not be a question of how long she would last?? I’d give her 5 minutes.

            • Kim O’Brien

              2 if i am in the room

          • Jon Atack

            rather depends what their gift is – Corea is a musical genius, not a psychologist – many, many talented people are driven by narcissism. Emory University surveyed past presidents and showed that every popular president showed significant narcissism. We should hold everyone to the same ethical standards and stop believing that the ability to act or a beautiful body qualifies anyone to give life advice beyond their own capacities.

            • Mockingbird

              I am unhappy with the people who dismiss any claim of a politician being evil, narcissistic or sociopathic by saying “all politicians are like that” as a slogan to end critical analysis of a person. Some people have tremendous evidence they personally are individuals with mental difficulties and genuinely evil behavior.

              It’s frustrating to have a supporter of politician X dismiss racism, misogyny, religious discrimination, homophobia, pathological lying, narcissism and sociopathic qualities by saying ” every politician does that” or “it’s no big deal”.

              Those behaviors are the best warning we can get. We should listen carefully, our very lives depend on it.

        • gtsix

          But Lochte is just a kid who got a bit out of hand! Lying douche nozzle should be banned from the USA team.

          • Kim O’Brien

            yeah …but Gabby Douglas has an ” attitude problem ” cuz she does not smile enough or put her hand on her heart

            Patriarchy can just go fuck itself

            • Jimmy3

              We do.

        • Jon Atack

          Often the standard is harsher. We should tolerate those who give something to society, methinks, but not allow them to influence our judgement through awe – if we didn’t expect talented people to be perfect, it might be easier for them not to align themselves with half-baked nonsense (or even clam-baked nonsense).

      • Jon Atack

        He is a victim. So is DM. I’m all for judging people according to their crimes, but accepting mitigation when it comes to sentencing. I think Corea is indeed a prodigious talent, but I find most of his music unsatisfying for the same reason as Mendelssohn’s – it lacks emotional depth, it is too damn chirpy. Four Quartets and Bliss are still rather wonderful, though, and bits and pieces from his whole catalogue. I cannot dismiss any artist or scientist for their wacky beliefs or narcissistic behaviour though – that would exclude Picasso, van Gogh, Gauguin, Newton, Faraday and even Galileo. Let’s celebrate their gifts to us, and remind ourselves that they were deluded.

        • Mockingbird

          Accepting Hubbard and Miscavige as victims is a hard sell for Scientology critics. I can’t dispute that good logic can support it intellectually, but it’s tough to swallow.

        • HillieOnTheBeach

          “…that would exclude Picasso, van Gogh, Gauguin, Newton, Faraday and even Galileo.”

          Straw man argument, Jon.

          Chick is not a victim to the extent that he has the means to figure out what’s going on if he’d bother to look up from his navel. Willful, convenient ignorance is not victimhood.

    • Jon Atack

      That is simply heartbreaking. Even worse than one of the great jazz musicians wasting two years of his life working on The Road to Freedom.

  • Scream Nevermore

    When the Fail’s readers know what a waste of space you are, Tom, it’s really time to give up:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3750085/Mission-Impossible-Tom-Cruise-s-M-6-production-halted-star-s-pay-demands.html#comments

    • Graham

      The commenters seem to have got the measure of Tommy boy. Many comments along the lines of: 1) TC needs the money to give to Scientology 2) Why isn’t he spending this time seeing his daughter instead of haggling over money? 3) He’s replaceable. If the James Bond franchise can survive having different lead actors why couldn’t the MI Franchise?

      • Scream Nevermore

        Quite a few of them know Miscavige’s name too. And the phrase ‘creepy dwarf’ comes up a few times!

        • Graham

          The word is getting out. I blame those billboards and all those joking and degrading CICS DBs.

    • madame duran

      From the DM article entitled, “Mission Impossible? Tom Cruise’s M:I-6 production ‘halted over star’s pay demands'”

      Paramount, which was co-financing the movie with Skydance, was in the early stages of pre-production, according to THR.com with a January date scheduled for the start of principal photography.

      However, with a star of the caliber of Cruise, it’s not just the upfront salary that matters; there’s also the percentage of back-end profits he’s likely to get.

      It’s claimed that the actor, 54, who’s recently completed work on The Mummy, wanted a share of the gross proceeds that would match or exceed his deal with Universal for playing the lead in the horror reboot.

      It appears the studio is blinking.

      THIS IS WHY I DON’T FINANCIALLY SUPPORT CRUISE FILMS.

      Your movie dollars does more that provide entertainment. It funds future movie projects. It helps to cover expenses such as AN ACTOR’S SALARY. The abundance (or lack) of consumers paying to watch a film will determine not only that movie’s success but also shape the level of opportunities or clout given to an actor.
      Do you think Cruise could make these demands if his box office returns were in the toilet? No!!
      The more people pay to see Cruise films, they ultimately empower Cruise to earn more. A bigger earning means a bigger donation for Scientology. Scientology continues to do harm because it has been bankrolled by its wealthiest members.
      How can anyone NOT see the connection? How can anyone think that their choice to pay for a Cruise film doesn’t affect anybody?
      So instead of believing the LIE that your measly 12 bucks doesn’t matter, take a moment to think about how that tiny amount is multiplied into the millions. Imagine the POWER that kind of money wields. Now imagine the domino effect of hundreds of thousands of movie goers deciding to shift that power/money into other priorities…perhaps to support another film starring non-Scientologists. Don’t you think that will have a profound effect? It’s possible to effect change but first it must begin with each individual making a choice. A choice as simple as saying, “No, thanks”.

  • Observer

    I had never heard of “terror stomach” before. The image that sprang to mind when I read the phrase was of Lafayette with a gaping, fanged maw in his midsection. Alas, that’s not what he meant. I tracked down the PAB. It’s on page 14 (numbered page 14, not page 14 of the PDF).

    http://www.tep-online.info/laku/usa/reli/scien/SECRETDOX/1957_59.PDF

    The stomach is guilty of the overt act of eating, it is continuously guilty of this act and becomes quite frantic on the whole subject of being incarcerated. This is rather funny, because the stomach is already incarcerated and is continually incarcerating—it puts food into jail three times a day; and so we get police putting somebody away as being the commonest restimulator of the terror stomach. A terror stomach is simply a confusion in a high degree of restimulation in the vicinity of the vagus nerve.

    • Jimmy3

      It’s a real thing. I’ve eaten leftover Taco Bell.

      • Kestrel

        That would do it.

      • Observer

        I figured either Taco Bell or White Castle would be mentioned in relation to Terror Stomach.

        • Jimmy3

          I’m only here to make your wishes come true, Obs. I am your Falkor.
          Would you like a chalupa?

          • Observer

            No thanks, I’m good.

        • gtsix

          Don’t you mock the castle! Those grease burgers are heavenly (when the eater is tipsy)

          • Observer

            And they no doubt add a special dimension to the next day’s hangover.

      • Mockingbird

        That’s a horror story. Especially on the terrifying trip to the restroom !

        • Kestrel

          It’s disastrous if one trips on the way to the restroom.

          • Mockingbird

            Arggghhh !

      • April

        I once ate some deviled eggs that hat been sitting on the counter too long. Huge Mistake.

        • Kestrel

          Were you bedeviled?

    • Scream Nevermore

      Makes me think of the freaky belly in ‘Videodrome’!

    • MarcabExpat

      Holy crap, that is twisted. Haven’t looked at these in a good while. What an excruciatingly detailed system for taking a perfectly normal person out of reality and putting them in a state of unreality.

    • FredEX2

      Well! What in the world did we ever need MDs and nurses and other medical practitioners for?!!! LRH could explain it all and Scientology could cure it. 😆

      • Techie

        Funny, Fredex2, but that is pretty much how it is at the Int Base. If you get sick you go see the Medical Liaison Officer (one of them was a registered nurse in France decades before and the other had some experience as a physicians assistant). They would give you some vitamins or tell you to get more sleep. If it was something that Hubbard said something about you would be given the Hubbard reference to read as well. If it got really bad they might take you to a doctor, but all the doctor visits have to be paid for by the income of the organization. If Gold didn’t sell any cassette tapes that week, no money, no doctor. Nobody has insurance. I’ll bet that is still true even with the Affordable Care Act because even the cheapest super high deductible plan is about 10 times their normal pay. To get the subsidies they would have to turn in tax returns, a big no-no because then the IRS would know how many slaves with expired religious worker visas are hiding in the Int Base. The “Religious Worker” exemption would wear pretty thin if there were actual numbers in the IRS files.

    • Jon Atack

      His war wound was an ulcer, remember, for which he received large amounts of phenobarbital (as he openly admitted in a lecture). His panic never subsided and he suffered from gut pain all his life. And short-sightedness; and bursitis (which Dn claimed to cure); and asthma. He only managed to give up smoking a year or so before he died, too. Not a very healthy hero, really.

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    I hereby post the latest video by AngryGayPope for those who may have missed it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xyTTXf7kE

    • I don’t care that these girls are Scientologists or Sea Org Members. Calling ANY woman a WHORE is a fucking No No and the Angry Gay Pope can FUCK OFF. He’s not affecting any change and I think it is fine if he is locked up for harassing them. Because that is what he is doing. He makes the rest of us who are telling TRUTH about Scientology look bad and he needs to just knock it the FUCK off.

      • Mockingbird

        I stay away from the W word myself. It’s the cousin to the N word in my opinion. A white person using the N word implies a belief in black people as inherently inferior, criminal, animalistic, subhuman creatures that deserve no rights as human beings, it’s a philosophy summed up in a word and using the word validates the philosophy.

        I know white men that delight in saying the N word and feel a rush of superiority every time they do it, especially in forbidden places like their job.

        Similarly the W word has a judgment that a prostitute is worthless and subhuman, that women deserve sexual violence due to inferiority and that a promiscuous woman equals a prostitute and that all women can be promiscuous or lust inspiring. It ultimately degrades all women and is best understood as doing so. First off no woman deserves less dignity than a man. Prostitute or not a human being deserves the full rights anyone else should get.

        Similarly black folks deserve equal rights, dignity and protection.

        Angry Gay Pope may feel as a gay man he gets a pass to call women that. I don’t support that claim.

        I don’t support the “ghetto pass” claim folks like Dog the bounty hunter and Hulk Hogan try to use to justify using the N word.

        Is it murder, rape or a physical assault ? No.

        Is it disgusting and cause for losing employment, friends and opportunities ? Yes. People can decide not to reward or associate with others who use the N word or W word.

        I certainly do.

        • gtsix

          He doesn’t get a pass.

          It amuses me when men use cocksucker as an insult for women or gay men. It is inexplicably counterproductive to insult someone for doing something you want them to do. Always fun to point that out, and watch them get even angrier about it.

          • Mockingbird

            Now you are tackling misogyny head on. Cocksucker describes a ridiculed act. It’s discouraged by some religious folks who see sex as a chore to produce children and full of sin. Some see enjoying sex or doing anything other than heterosexual intercourse to get a woman pregnant as sinful and evil. So the men who receive oral sex must blame women for doing it. And consider gay men inferior and like women too.

            If someone is against gay sex I just tell them “if you don’t want to have gay sex, then don’t”. It’s that simple. If you want it enjoy yourself, if not then abstain.

            And if a man opposes women performing oral sex he can usually fight them off if they try to force a man to receive oral sex, there might be exceptions but I don’t wake up and worry about vicious fellatio enthusiasts assaulting me.

            • Jimmy3

              I worry about that all the time. One day I won’t have the strength to fight them all off. That day could be today.

            • Mockingbird

              Let me guess, they will be lustful supermodels overcome with a burning desire ?

            • FredEX2

              OMG you boys! LOL

            • Mockingbird

              Yeah, Jimmy’s big problem is holding off hordes of lustfueled women, blinded by desire to ravish his body. Tough life.

            • Jimmy3

              I just hope no sexy ladies try that today, the same day I lost the power to resist.

            • Mockingbird

              This is getting as realistic as Hubbard’s claims.

            • Jimmy3

              You ever heard of the baseball trick? Like where you want to last longer in bed, so you think of baseball or something mundane and unsexy…. Well the Hubbard trick just completely kills everything. Not recommended.

            • Mockingbird

              UGH.

            • Mockingbird

              Someone should shoop you sitting at a desk “worrying” about a pack of lust crazed beauties having their way with you. This is starting to resemble Hustler or Penthouse Forum.

            • gtsix

              Wait just a.minute… there are vicious fellatio enthusiasts? This is a weekly meeting I would never miss! I’ll try really hard to fight them off… really, honestly… I’ll never give up.

            • Mockingbird

              How charitable of you.

      • Observer

        I can’t watch his stuff. He has done some incredible work (such as his collaboration with Jeff and Karen), but the verbal abuse is too much.

        • Jimmy3

          I’m a huge fan of Slightly Less Angry Gay Pope

          • Mockingbird

            Disgruntled Gay Pope ?

            • Graham

              Mildly Irritated.

            • Mockingbird

              Oh boy.

        • HillieOnTheBeach

          “…but the verbal abuse is too much.”

          Agreed. I won’t take away deserved credit for some of his videos. His clearing of Hubbard Way in less than two minutes during an event was epic.

          But I’m not a fan of his trademark sing-song taunts that are rarely clever.

      • Swearing doesn’t help, Nora.

    • Dave Reams

      It is really depressing to see all those young Scientologists. Perhaps they never researched the cult before being indocrinated or worse, they did research it and joined anyway!

      • Mockingbird

        Most young Scientologists I know were raised in the cult. Their parents shared it and kept criticism far away. They believe it from childhood on.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    Hope springs eternal plus sucker born every day, principles, and monkey see monkey do for the unfortunates born into their parents’ fake religion; all that keeps Scientologists ploughing along in their Hubbard hypnotism legacy, all happy and stuck in Hubbard’s ruts.

    A bigger longer range untruth of Hubbard’s, which Scientology will never positively show, is their past lives knowledge will NOT be shining through in the minds of any of the baby Scientologists growing up as 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Scientologists.

    Not a durned one of them will show off their mega improved mind due to being Scientologists in past lives!

    If Hubbard was right, and if the Bridge to Total Freedom spiritual therapy/exorcism procedures really do work to improve people’s soul memories, there’d be young Scientologists today showing off their impeccable past lives memories and spiritual accomplishments of their Scientologist past lives.

    Nada.

    But instead, fools born every day, suckers who don’t read the internet, or who are born into Scientology’s prison of belief world, will be the only takers.

    PS: Hubbard’s massive dull bureaucracy of Sea Org, Orgs, Missions, IHELP and the front groups, gives the image of there being something there there, or why else would all these Scientology staffers be manning the operation. This operation does pay its Sysco bills at least.

    • Techie

      Chuck, it USUALLY pays the Sysco bill, sometimes the rancid tacos are served instead as mentioned down thread. Burns as much going down as it does coming back up. Fortunately many of the bathrooms in the Big Blue have a sink right next to the toilet.I am still waiting for the whole track recall space cadets to come up with a faster than light drive. Or artificial gravity (Wheels in space that spin don’t count. Sorry NOI). It is even in Star Wars. Why can’t some engineer come out of session and write up the plans? No dilithium crystals? Or no real past life recall? Inquiring minds want to know.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Makes me further think that Scientology, by Hubbard, is a big “show.”

        The staff are lured into their positions through Hubbard’s false verbiage, and take their roles in the “show” of “new religion” saving the world.

        Save the World Show, by L. Ron Hubbard.

        Hiring!

        Come pretend to save the world with us, and eat Sysco tacos!

    • Jon Atack

      There is a sucker born every time a human first draws breath. Without belief we could not exist. We accept the dogma of our culture – and until fairly recently that dogma meant death or exclusion for anyone who refused to believe in walking on water or turning it into wine. The history of freethinking in the West (the East did rather better in this regard) is embarrassingly slow and shows just how confining cultural beliefs can be. There are many cultures that practice torture as part of the legal process (including India and Israel – but there are about 60 and the US is among them). Female genital mutilation is also practised in about 60 countries. There are as many as 30 million slaves in the world (India tops the list with perhaps 13 million). People smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol! The destructive beliefs of our cultures are many and our smug pretence at wisdom does nothing to make it better. We are all gullible – as New Scientist advertises, 90% of people have a delusional belief (and the rest simply aren’t talking). I’m even told that there is a politician who wants to ban Muslims and force the Mexicans to build a wall 1200 miles long. Amazing what people will believe!

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        One thing that stuck me into Scientology was the “soul” is a real deal thing “proof” that exteriorization ability OT level was supposedly going to produce for me should I jump aboard the Hubbard show.

        If only the Hubbard crank pseudo-past-lives-therapy and “body thetan” exorcism resulted in the ability, like the ability to ride a bicycle is what I thought it would result in, to fly out of one’s skull at will, like a Caspar the Ghost angel and do good OT deeds.

        What a delusional hope that was, that kept me hoping in the Hubbard ship of co-fools.

        Jon, you are way too smart! Everything you write is a treat.

  • Qbird

    Out of the mouth of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scn., Inc.: Miasma.
    This is true… figuratively & literally.

  • Vaquera

    NOI Communication Drill at a marriage retreat.
    Plus, Super Power completion. f5

    • Jimmy3

      My Perceptics were renewed across all dynamics, and I had a cognition that I was now operating under a set of completely new Dynaceptics! This will help pay off my parking tickets!!!

      • Mockingbird

        You should write success stories for a living. You got that locked down. Perhaps an apprenticeship with Dan Sherman could be arranged ?

    • gtsix

      I’m calling it, 5th guy (up from bottom) is catching zzz’s. Ethics!

    • Observer

      They look so happy and in love!

  • Mockingbird

    From Jon Atack:

    “What if Scientology is simply a Matrix?

    A trip into the mind of a solipsistic narcissist? What if the elaborate map of reality laid out by Hubbard is nothing more than a map? But a map of a country that has no existence beyond the barriers of Hubbard’s imagination?”

    I found solipsistic defined as believing in ideas because they are in your head and not listening to other ideas because they aren’t in your head or critical as the best explanation available.

    It’s not a compliment. I remember reading a book by Tucker Max where he used it while I was still a Scientologist and feeling oddly uncomfortable with the concept.

    Now the reason a Scientologist would dislike the idea is clear. It hits too close to home.

  • Mockingbird

    Jon Atack really as far as food for thought today gave us a lot to chew on.

    Like this: “In the back of Science of Survival, there is a glossary featuring the term “gradient scales,” which is illustrated with a chart headed “evolution of logic.” It lists single-valued logic – the Will of God; two-valued logic – right or wrong; three valued logic – right, wrong or maybe; and infinity-valued logic.”

    When I came out of Scientology I found that Scientology reduces everything to two values – Hubbard right , everything against Hubbard wrong.

    That’s it, no nuance, no subtle distinctions, no critical analysis with depth, contrast, relative degrees, none of it. I had a hard time accepting a lot. There are good people, bad people and people you won’t fall in love with that aren’t bad either. There are maybes and I don’t knows that never change.

    There are facts, guesses, opinions, hypotheses, theories and hunches. They all hold different degrees of proof or certainty and any can be wrong no matter how strongly tested, confirmed or believed.

    And there are degrees. A person can be a great person doing something slightly annoying and that doesn’t make them evil or counter intentioned.

    The psychological defense mechanism of splitting or black and white thinking has an intellectual component, but it has an overwhelming emotional part. A Scientologist gets a world of near pure evil and pure good. Decades of that encourages snap decisions of acceptance or condemnation that turn on and off as if a switch had been flipped.

    It’s like you have two identities, good Ron and Bad Ron. One claims to be mankind’s greatest friend and the other is cruel and ruthless.

    Hubbard pretended a friendly intention so much many Scientologists take on a similar facade, but Hubbard was ultimately cruel and selfish, vain beyond measure and selfish too. Scientologists can take on that too, in addition to the friendly facade.

    They get two identities to switch between. Neither genuine.

  • April Moonlight

    Very good article Jon Atack. It makes things much clearer, thanks for explaining. I hope you are enjoying life – it’s always interesting to read your guest columns here.

  • richelieu jr

    Thank you for this Jon–As usual, you are so much ore eloquent than I am, when I have been saying my opposition to the ‘Indies’ et al was no one of fear of the beliefs, but of the concurrent attempt to rehabilitate Hubbard whist resurrecting his systems, which are, to put it simply, a ‘Hubbard Mentality Inflicting System.

    We know where it gets you mentally, and when you are paranoid and insecure and grasping at straws.. well, a baton can feel like a mighty handy straw and here, look! Did LRH say this might happen if the (your crime here) wrong sort of people were involved/Ethics weren’t put in/Etc…?

    Scientology cannot exist in an open, questioning environment- therefor eif the aim of the group is that Hubbardism succeed, then they will close the environment, and once it is closed, the game is up.

    I also quite agree that banning is indesirable, and even plays into the sort of binary thinking that so well-served Hubbardism. OTOH, close control and observation are de rigeur.

    • Techie

      True, banning a group is not a good idea. It just returns under another name. And banning an idea is even sillier. All I wish the government would do is to prosecute them for their crimes. No need for any new laws, get them for human trafficking, fraud, unlawful imprisonment, money laundering, perjury, false representations, insurance fraud, inurement, hiding and protecting criminals, psychiatric malpractice, treating patients without a license, RICO violations, tax evasion, “creative accounting”, whatever it takes. Just take a brief look at what Tony has reported in the last six months. And do a little digging. These are folks who think they are above the law. Such always leave a string dangling that can be pulled. Maybe in the past they had friends in high places, I doubt that is true today. Come on, you spooks and Gmen, what a reputation you could win by taking down David Miscavige! Edgar Hoover would salute you!

      • Jon Atack

        In the UK we now have a Coercive Control law – framed to help those subjected to domestic abuse, but potentially a way to bring totalist cults to book. As it is, the undue influence laws – centuries old – are of little use. They recognise that we can be subjected to influence, but while we are under it, we will not do anything (and nor will the state) and once we escape it is usually way past the statute of limitations, so the fortunes handed over to Scn will remain in DM’s living trust in the Netherlands Antilles (sorry, I wasn’t supposed to mention that).

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Banning any religious belief system would be fundamentally unAmerican and Constitutionally prohibited, but on the other hand, stripping it of its tax-exempt status seems entirely reasonable. Despite making lots and lots of noise over their supposed charitable acts, $cn has contributed almost nothing to the public good, in terms of hospitals, schools, disaster relief, homeless shelters, food banks or in any other of about a hundred additional ways that true charitable religious organizations have done so historically.

      Indeed, even within the cherch, charitable donations haven’t made auditing and training more available to those of lesser means, nor has it improved the standard of living or provided health care to its workers. Instead, a huge percentage of donated funds has gone toward acquiring property that’s sat idle and towards paying for the very expensive services of the lawyers and PI’s who continue to implement Elron’s infamous Fair Game policy.

      Shorn of its federal tax exempt status and publicly revealed to be the corrupt, abusive and dishonest organization that it is, $cn in its current form can do nothing but implode and collapse under the weight of its lies, false promises and failed management.

      Making that happen sooner, rather than later, sounds like a very worthy “star-high” goal to me!

      • Jon Atack

        I’m starting to think that Scn might be some sort of scam and not a genuine charity after all…

        Even after it was stripped of its vast wealth by Krishnamurti, Theosophy continued. Its self-styled Pope – Charles Leadbeater – was a pederast, but Theosophy, even stripped of funds, continued. Scn has billions in buildings and cash. DM could quickly turn it around and keep it going for decades without collecting another dime. I have no interest in litigation (I worked on over 150 cases, almost all without charge), but I agree with my friend Lawrence Wollersheim that only litigation will kill this monster. While it has fuel it will continue to harm people. Someone needs to start the class action about the promises of Clear – which are promises of physical cure and advancement, not spiritual cure. The lawyers in the FAIR case in LA back in 1988 were overjoyed when I pointed out this single point that makes a class – sadly the steering committee did not want to ‘denigrate the state of Clear’ so the action was abandoned. I think every member of the steering committee subsequently did denigrate the state of Clear…

        • Harpoona Frittata

          I agree and getting a number of class actions suits certified would be a very effective way of going right at the cherch!

          I wonder if all those Sea Org kids who were born into the religion and put to hard labor and deprived of an adequate education could qualify as a class? Regardless of any statute of limitations that might be on the books, their situation is very much like all those kids abused by pedophile priests and they definitely deserve justice and recompense for the loss of their childhoods!

    • Jon Atack

      I like your Hubbard Mentality Inflicting System, you should patent it (the HMIC), if ASI don’t get there first. As Hubbard said of ethics: ‘goodness and badness, beautifulness and ugliness are alike considerations and have no other basis than opinion.’ And that’s an Axiom, so above the lesser data of Scn (where ethics pretends to matter). No other basis than opinion. Hmmm.

  • Jimmy3

    I don’t care what most of the Bunker says. I enjoy Jon Atack’s perspective.

    • gtsix

      Well, that’s just your opinion man.

      https://goo.gl/images/FGhi87

      • Jimmy3

        gtsix, this isn’t ‘Nam. This is the Bunker. There are rules.

  • FOTF2012

    You write: “While Christianity was imposed on populations, on pain of death, thinking was stifled. This is a negative reflection on those who used Christianity to control people, not upon the tenets of that faith. In
    the context of the Church, it was considered righteous to burn disbelievers alive.”

    There is one current religion on Earth in which some of its believers are committed to imposing their beliefs on others, doing so on pain of death, burning people alive, etc. And it is not Christianity.

    I imagine you single out Christianity because it is more familiar to Western readers. However, Islam is an even bigger and better and longer-lasting example of forced conversion. Of the three “great” monotheisms, only Judaism lacked evangelical zeal and forced conversion to the best of my knowledge.

    Whereas Islam had a golden age that embraced some types of science (though largely for religious reasons), it lost that edge as it slipped back into orthodox fundamentalism and is still fighting that battle (Wahhabism, Salafism, ISIS, etc.). Calls for reinterpretation, as with Quranists, are treated often as blasphemy punishable by death. Jew-hatred is indoctrinated from youth frequently, and gays and lesbians (and even victims of rape) are often punished with death — even by national laws (based on sharia) in countries like Iran.

    Christianity in contrast stifled science, but when Christianity reformed, science and rational thinking were able to emerge again, leading to great advances throughout Western Civilization, paralleled by great stagnation in the Muslim world which had moved to fundamentalism and eschewed science (ironically, even while claiming, falsely, that the Quran held many scientific truths that could only have come from God). Whereas a majority of Muslims (by multiple polls) want religious law (sharia) you find few Christians who demand that every rule of the New and Old Testaments should be followed to the letter and overrule secular law. Christianity has largely made its peace (at least in terms of eschewing violence) with secularism, whereas Islam most definitely has not.

    I’m not defending the past wrongs of Christianity. I am suggesting that if we are going to compare other religions we do so in a more thorough fashion.

    • Jimmy3

      Christianity is just a safer, easier target.

    • Edward Whalley

      Actually, no one ‘forced’ Christianity on anyone in the early Middle Ages, c. 400-1200. (The Roman Empire in the West was far too weak to impose anything on anyone.) It came with an unbeatable deal: convert and you’ll learn this mysterious thing, literacy. Also, until the Counter-Reformation, monasteries were full of people ‘doing science’ in that they were developing the logical basis upon which we base the ‘scientific method’ today, and inventing things like horse collars, windmills, and better plows.

      Most American education is not oriented to the messy sides of history, in favor of social studies, which presents a series of moral playlets, Galileo On The Stake, Witches Killed in Salem in order to make 1930’s era secularism sound like the only viable option. At the same time, people still need to celebrate life’s milestones, to have mystical experiences, and to gather together with some other social glue than work and family, which was one of the lessons of the 1960’s. We can’t just throw the bathwater out, without checking whether there’s a baby in it.

      • gtsix

        Actually you might want to look at the Baltic countries during that era. They were most forcibly converted.

        • Edward Whalley

          Yeah, but that was a little late in the period, if you’re talking about Scandinavia.

          • gtsix

            Well yeah, crusades didn’t start occurring til 1000, and the teutonic knights and christianized Danes didn’t start on Baltic maneuvering til then… but it was occuring by the time frame you specified. Prying the Baltic states to western catholicism from their pagan beliefs (and taxes to the west instead of Kievan Rus and their orthodoxy) was most definitely being done with economics and war to force conversions amongst the last strongholds of paganism in europe during the 1100-1400 period.

            • Edward Whalley

              I admit my mistake. It’s kind of hard to make a clean cut-off point when the Celts converted so peacefully as to have left off no trace of a conflict, wheras the Lithuanians have such a history. Perhaps I should have cut it off at the coronation of Charlemagne, and the rise of the Morovingian kings in the North. Still, a whole generation of students have been told Paganism and Science, good, The Church, bad, no matter what their parents and culture tells them. (And if you start me on Evangelicalism…”

            • gtsix

              Discussing history is always fraught and yet fun… we humans are a fascinating animal.

              I’d go back further, and give you more info on germanic/slav conversions from the 7th-10th centuries, but it is the weekend, and I’m watching the football.

              We could also debate the science bad/good v religion good/bad and public education .. but really, centuries of religion is perfect and infallible might need a few decades to countermand. Religion can be taught in schools… in religion or philosophy courses. Not in science courses.

            • FOTF2012

              I would add that the Crusades themselves were a belated response to a couple hundred years of Muslim attacks on Europe, including on Rome with damage to the Vatican, slave raids, and efforts at colonization. The main trigger that caused the Crusades was not Christian forced conversion, but Muslims cutting off Christian pilgrim access to the “Holy” Lands. Somehow too many people seem to have accepted a false history that the Crusades were an unwarranted armed intrusion against innocent, victim Muslims, which was not true. That is not to say that Crusaders did not in turn commit their own atrocities, for they certainly did in some cases, and certainly some of the motivation was protection of “Christendom” (as it was called then) from Muslim (or Mohammedan as it was often called then, to parallel the form “Christian”) incursions into Europe. As another act in the dark play of history, the Inquisition (Spanish) was the post-Reconquista effort to purge the Iberian peninsula of centuries of Moorish, Muslim colonization. It is not an attack on Islam or a defense of Christianity to point out the accurate history (so thanks gtsix for what you point out).

              The topic (Jon’s good article) is interesting to me in that it has me thinking about what religion Scientology may be like. It does have at least superficial characteristics to Buddhism and Hinduism (multiple lives), but it does not seem to have much in common with the “great” monotheisms (other than maybe some of the mystical, and I think somewhat uplifting and beautiful, threads of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). Scientology shares some traits with Christian sects that eject or shun apostates, but it falls far short of Islam, which in its literal application, which is carried out too often, calls for the execution of apostates (I’ll take a Scientology “goldenrod” any day, though they don’t seem to issue those any more). It’s name includes an allusion to science, which makes a possible similarity to Christian Science, but Scientology eschews research science and demeans Christianity. So I have not been able to decide Scientology is much like any other major religion as opposed to another.

              I do wish Scientology would reform and put the “science” into Scientology and do some hard research. I do think there are some nuggets of value buried in there!

      • Jon Atack

        True enough – though the monasteries were learning science from Islam – the first universities were established to study Avicenna’s commentaries on Aristotle; Roger Bacon and Duns Scotus studied with Muslim masters and the Little Renaissance that prefigured the bigger one, came with the movement of Muslim ideas into Europe through the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine’s grand-dad, the Troubadour. Personal hygience, quarantine, perfume (al-cohol), mathematics (al-gebra), chemistry (al-chemia), crop irrigation and much more were gifts of this now demonised people.

        Maybe we should keep the nutritious bath water but throw out that fat baby, after all.

    • Jon Atack

      Less than one per cent of current Muslims are Wahhabi in their belief. And Muslims all over the world are suffering for a political creed invented after WWII – it is not a consistent behaviour from the beginning of Islam to now and it belongs in groups that are responding to real indignities. It is amazing that there has been so little response to the deaths of 750,000 people in Afghanistan and Iraq. ‘Jew-hatred’ is fairly recent – and in part a consequence of Nazi propaganda in Palestine in the 30s. Islam was tolerant of the other religions of the Book through centuries of persecution in Christendom (it was only just over a century ago that Jews were allowed to shed their identifying costumes when in the Vatican city – the original yellow star state).

      The stagnation of the Muslim world was greatly assisted by the Great Game played by the Europeans in the 19th century – the Crimean War for instance and the various attempts to invade Afghanistan. Once the Ottoman fell, their lands were greedily divided by the French and the British who imposed dictatorships or refused the vote to non-Christians (in Lebanon, for instance). Then came the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran (a Churchill/Eisenhower idea) so that he could be replace by the Shah – whom Amnesty have labelled the cruelest dictator of the post-War period. Curiously, Iraniians have a negative view of this. The imposition of Israel on Palestinians did nothing to help (especially after the British reneged on Lawrence’s promises – it was the Bedouin who actually defeated the Ottoman after all – the Allies simply sacrificed the poor Anzacs at Gallipoli).

      Let’s add the Sikh massacre of Muslims at the beginning of the war of partition; the soldier Zen of WWII; the magical tenets of the Nazis; and the secular fanaticism of Mao and the Bolsheviks. I really wasn’t trying to write a religious studies piece – I chose a simple comparison to exemplify a point. I don’t have the time to rewrite Mircia Eliade or Joe Campbell, but I recommend that anyone reading this should read them, alongside a decent history of Islam and the torture of Said by the Egyptian authorities that led directly to contemporary Islamism.

      It really isn’t a continuum, as you seem to suggest – we have to distinguish between shi’a and sunni and then between twelvers and severners, followers of the Aga Khan, the hundreds of Sufi sects and the variations within sunni belief. Islam is not organised like Christianity, and there are diverse opinions among the mullahs – most are not in any way involved in terrorism and do not support it. The US and Britain meanwhile do support the breeding ground of Wahhabism, Saudi Arabia, which is about the most backward state in the Middle East, and was created by the British (who imported the Saud family and made them dictators, rather than establishing a democracy).

      I’ve said elsewhere that supposing all Muslims are guilty of the atrocities of the Wahhabis or the Shi’ite militias (who were given power by the Allies in Iraq) is like saying that the activities of the Branch Davidians represent ‘Christianity’. An aberrant sect – not ‘Islam’. You say that ‘Islam’ has ‘most definitely not’ eschewed violence – but the Umma does.

      Thorough enough?

      • FOTF2012

        You may be well-informed about Scientology, but you lack understanding of the history of Islam, which spread by force to colonize the Middle East, northern Africa, parts of Asia Minor, and a portion of Europe. During those conquests, which were not in any way related to WW II — they preceded it by over a thousand years — an estimated half a billion or more non-Muslim people were killed. In India alone, millions of Hindus were killed. One Muslim historian (Muhammad Qasim Hindu Shah — 1500s and 1600s) estimated that around 400 million Hindus were slaughtered by Muslims. The Islamic atrocities against India may have amounted to the world’s largest genocide. You are aware of a Sikh massacre, but are apparently ignorant of the huge massacres perpetrated by Muslims,

        Yet you say that violence was not consistent with the behavior of Islam from the beginning?

        And you say Jew-hatred was fairly recent? You have evidently not studied the Quran or the Hadith. The Quran states clearly that Jews are descended from pigs and apes, and this is taught to this day in educational systems in many Muslim countries. Long before the Nazis, Jews in countries like Egypt were forced to pay special taxes and wear insignia that marked them as Jews (and which showed they had paid their tax). This was the fate of non-Muslims permitted to live under Islam as second-class citizens subject to discrimination and penalties. You mention Jews having to wear identifying insignia in Europe, but you fail to mention that was true in the Muslim world too.

        Have you wondered why there were once many Jews (comprising several tribes) in the Arabian peninsula, but virtually none now, and any that are there are banned from Mecca and Medina and from showing any evidence of Judaism. Yes, there are Quranic verses that recognize “people of the book” (Jews and Christians) but to understand them in context one needs to understand the differences between the Meccan and Medinan phases of Islam and Muhammed’s teaching, and the fact that earlier, relatively less belligerent statements of Muhammed’s are abrogated by later, relatively more bellicose statements.

        Virtually all Saudis are educated in the Wahhabi tradition, and Saudi Arabia actively exports this fundamentalist, literalist, sharia-compliant philosophy throughout the world, wherever it can. Saudis do not like to call it other than Islam, because that would imply it is a separate sect, and Saudis are primarily Sunni. Wahhabism is a branch of Sunni Islam.

        Fundamentalist Islam began before WW II. In WW II, Islam aligned with the Axis powers, sharing the strong thread of anti-Semitism that is still evident throughout the Muslim world today — fostered not by fringe groups but by national or official news agencies (Palestinian, Egyptian, Saudi, etc.). Wahhabism has been the dominant force in Saudi Arabia for at least a couple centuries — long before WW II. Wahhabism is the _official_ state-sponsored form of Islam in Saudi Arabia.

        If you want to do a percentage count of Wahhabis, you need to define the terms and methodology. You would also need to look at related ideologies, like that of Salafis (“first generation”) who strive to emulate everything about Muhammed. Salafists are one of the factions fighting in Syria, part of a conflict that his killed hundreds of thousands. You could say that all Wahhabis are Salafists, but not the reverse (Wahhabis are stricter in their interpretations). ISIS itself is Sunni-Wahhabi.

        And I am disappointed, but not surprised, that you throw up the usual canard that has the effect of conflating any criticism of Islam by pointing out facts about its history (conquest, forced conversion, colonization) and actions of _some_ Muslims today (nearly 30,000 deadly terror attacks worldwide since 9/11) with any such criticism somehow being equivalent to tarnishing all Muslims. I did not say, and I deeply reject and resent your implication that I might have meant that “all Muslims are guilty of the atrocities …” Anyone with half a brain knows that not all Muslims are to blame for atrocities; it goes without saying though many of us hasten to add it, and even then are misunderstood. The main result of being unwilling or unable to confront the threads of Islam that do lead to terrorism (and the atrocities of the past) is that we injure Muslims throughout the world today: the majority of those 30,000-ish post-9/11 attacks are Muslims killing other Muslims.

        My point remains this: if you are going to paint Christianity with the black brush you used it is either ignorant or hypocritical that you let other religions off the hook. The horrors wrought by Christianity in the Inquisition, witch hunts, and so on were indeed awful — but as an exemplar of what can go off the rails for religion, they pale in comparison to other atrocities. (For the record I am neither Christian nor Muslim, but have both faiths represented in my family.)

        So you asked: “Thorough enough?” Not by a mile.

      • FOTF2012

        My thorough response showing that Mr. Atack’s response was not at all thorough was apparently deleted. Shame on this site for suppressing that information and leaving the impression that Mr. Atack’s rebuttal was the final word. We’ll see if it sticks this time.

        Jon sez: “Less than one per cent of current Muslims are Wahhabi …”
        Wrong. Wahhabism is _the_ teaching in Saudi Arabia and is exported throughout the world. It has directly contributed to the Taliban, ISIS, and others.

        Jon sez: “And Muslims all over the world are suffering for a political
        creed invented after WWII – it is not a consistent behaviour from the
        beginning of Islam to now and it belongs in groups that are responding
        to real indignities.”
        Wrong. Islam has been a colonial and imperial power since the point where Mohammed realized that he was not getting converts without conquest. Islam has been directly responsible for the death’s of over half a billion people during those conquests. Northern Africa and much of the Middle East used to be Christian countries speaking other languages than Arabic. Muslim colonialism changed all of that, and where Christians and Jews were allowed to live, they became second class citizens (dhimmi) subject to persecution, stripping of rights and property, and exorbitant taxes. Europe almost fell under Muslim invasion. Many thousands of Europeans were captured by Muslims and taken as sex slaves and domestic slaves. Even the Crusades only came after about 200 years of Muslim attacks on Europe, including the sacking of Rome.

        Jon sez: ” Jew-hatred’ is fairly recent – and in part a consequence of Nazi
        propaganda in Palestine in the 30s. Islam was tolerant of the other
        religions of the Book through centuries of persecution in Christendom
        (it was only just over a century ago that Jews were allowed to shed
        their identifying costumes when in the Vatican city – the original
        yellow star state).
        Wrong. Jew hatred is embedded in the Quran and Hadith. The Quran refers to Jews as descended from apes and pigs. The anti-Semitism has been around since the beginning of Islam. Islam has not been tolerant of other peoples of the book. The best such people can hope for under a Muslim rule is dhimmitude; the worst is what we see in Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan, and other countries today — murder, rape, destruction of property, and so on. And yes, Jews had to wear insignia under Nazism — and they and Christians had to wear such insignia centuries earlier under Muslim rule in places like Egypt.

        Jon sez: “Let’s add the Sikh massacre of Muslims at the beginning of the war of partition; the soldier Zen of WWII; the magical tenets of the Nazis; and the secular fanaticism of Mao and the Bolsheviks. I really wasn’t trying to write a religious studies piece – I chose a simple comparison to exemplify a point.”
        Wrong. Jon has cherry-picked his comparison. Probably the worst genocide of the history was committed by Muslims in India. There was a genocide of Turks (Ottomans) against Christian Armenians and Christian Greek Cypriots and others. There is currently a genocide (acknowledged by the US State Department) against minority religions in the Middle East. To claim that such atrocities only began with Nazism, Bolshevism, etc. is myopic beyond belief.

        Jon sez: “Islam is not organised like Christianity, and there are diverse opinions among the mullahs – most are not in any way involved in terrorism and do not support it. The US and Britain meanwhile do support the breeding ground of Wahhabism, Saudi Arabia, which is about the most backward state in the Middle East, and was created by the British (who imported the Saud
        family and made them dictators, rather than establishing a democracy).
        Right!

        Jon sez: “I’ve said elsewhere that supposing all Muslims are guilty of the atrocities of the Wahhabis or the Shi’ite militias (who were given power by the
        Allies in Iraq) is like saying that the activities of the Branch Davidians represent ‘Christianity’. An aberrant sect – not ‘Islam’. You say that ‘Islam’ has ‘most definitely not’ eschewed violence – but the Umma does.”
        Right! I have also said in many venues that you cannot paint all Muslims with the same brush. We are talking about the documented history of Islam and the fact that their is widespread violence today based on Islamic fundamental or traditional beliefs. It is a false and nonsensical to claim that pointing out the facts is the same as saying all Muslims or all interpretations of Islam are violent. I know this firsthand as someone who includes Muslims in my own family. But it is illogical and dangerous to try to suppress pointing out the Islamic roots of Islamic terror and the long history of Islamic aggression, conquest, colonialism, forced conversion, and treatment of other religions.

        Jon says the “Umma” (the Islamic community) eschews violence — right after explaining the diversity of branches of Islam and Islamic interpretations, which shows clearly there is no one unified “ummah.”

        I’m sure this post will also be deleted so if you get a chance to read it, consider why Jon Atack and Mr. Ortega would decide that making people aware that while Mr. Atack knows lots about Scientology he is not solidly grounded in the facts and history of Islam. To consistently attack Scientology, which has never called for the death of those who leave the cult and then be an apologist for Islam, which calls for the death penalty for apostates — and frequently carries that out in multiple countries — is beyond myopic.

      • FOTF2012

        My thorough response showing that Mr. Atack’s response was not at all
        thorough was apparently deleted. Shame on this site for suppressing
        that information and leaving the impression that Mr. Atack’s rebuttal
        was the final word. We’ll see if it sticks this time.

        Jon sez: “Less than one per cent of current Muslims are Wahhabi …”

        Wrong.
        Wahhabism is _the_ teaching in Saudi Arabia and is exported throughout
        the world. It has directly contributed to the Taliban, ISIS, and others.

        Jon sez: “And Muslims all over the world are suffering for a political
        creed invented after WWII – it is not a consistent behaviour from the
        beginning of Islam to now and it belongs in groups that are responding
        to real indignities.”

        Wrong.
        Islam has been a colonial and imperial power since the point where
        Mohammed realized that he was not getting converts without conquest.
        Islam has been directly responsible for the death’s of over half a
        billion people during those conquests. Northern Africa and much of the
        Middle East used to be Christian countries speaking other languages than
        Arabic. Muslim colonialism changed all of that, and where Christians
        and Jews were allowed to live, they became second class citizens
        (dhimmi) subject to persecution, stripping of rights and property, and
        exorbitant taxes. Europe almost fell under Muslim invasion. Many
        thousands of Europeans were captured by Muslims and taken as sex slaves
        and domestic slaves. Even the Crusades only came after about 200 years
        of Muslim attacks on Europe, including the sacking of Rome.

        Jon sez: ” Jew-hatred’ is fairly recent – and in part a consequence of Nazi
        propaganda in Palestine in the 30s. Islam was tolerant of the other
        religions of the Book through centuries of persecution in Christendom
        (it was only just over a century ago that Jews were allowed to shed
        their identifying costumes when in the Vatican city – the original
        yellow star state).

        Wrong.
        Jew hatred is embedded in the Quran and Hadith. The Quran refers to
        Jews as descended from apes and pigs. The anti-Semitism has been around
        since the beginning of Islam. Islam has not been tolerant of other
        peoples of the book. The best such people can hope for under a Muslim
        rule is dhimmitude; the worst is what we see in Egypt, Nigeria,
        Pakistan, and other countries today — murder, rape, destruction of
        property, and so on. And yes, Jews had to wear insignia under Nazism —
        and they and Christians had to wear such insignia centuries earlier
        under Muslim rule in places like Egypt.

        Jon sez:
        “Let’s add the Sikh massacre of Muslims at the beginning of the war of
        partition; the soldier Zen of WWII; the magical tenets of the Nazis; and
        the secular fanaticism of Mao and the Bolsheviks. I really wasn’t
        trying to write a religious studies piece – I chose a simple comparison to exemplify a point.”

        Wrong.
        Jon has cherry-picked his comparison. Probably the worst genocide of
        the history was committed by Muslims in India. There was a genocide of
        Turks (Ottomans) against Christian Armenians and Christian Greek
        Cypriots and others. There is currently a genocide (acknowledged by the
        US State Department) against minority religions in the Middle East. To
        claim that such atrocities only began with Nazism, Bolshevism, etc. is
        myopic beyond belief.

        Jon sez: “Islam is not
        organised like Christianity, and there are diverse opinions among the
        mullahs – most are not in any way involved in terrorism and do not
        support it. The US and Britain meanwhile do support the breeding ground
        of Wahhabism, Saudi Arabia, which is about the most backward state in
        the Middle East, and was created by the British (who imported the Saud
        family and made them dictators, rather than establishing a democracy).

        Right!

        Jon
        sez: “I’ve said elsewhere that supposing all Muslims are guilty of the
        atrocities of the Wahhabis or the Shi’ite militias (who were given power
        by the
        Allies in Iraq) is like saying that the activities of the
        Branch Davidians represent ‘Christianity’. An aberrant sect – not
        ‘Islam’. You say that ‘Islam’ has ‘most definitely not’ eschewed
        violence – but the Umma does.”

        Right! I have also said in many
        venues that you cannot paint all Muslims with the same brush. We are
        talking about the documented history of Islam and the fact that their is
        widespread violence today based on Islamic fundamental or traditional
        beliefs. It is a false and nonsensical to claim that pointing out the
        facts is the same as saying all Muslims or all interpretations of Islam
        are violent. I know this firsthand as someone who includes Muslims in my
        own family. But it is illogical and dangerous to try to suppress
        pointing out the Islamic roots of Islamic terror and the long history of
        Islamic aggression, conquest, colonialism, forced conversion, and
        treatment of other religions.

        Jon says the “Umma”
        (the Islamic community) eschews violence — right after explaining the
        diversity of branches of Islam and Islamic interpretations, which shows
        clearly there is no one unified “ummah.”

        I’m sure
        this post will also be deleted so if you get a chance to read it,
        consider why Jon Atack and Mr. Ortega would decide that making people
        aware that while Mr. Atack knows lots about Scientology he is not
        solidly grounded in the facts and history of Islam. To consistently
        attack Scientology, which has never called for the death of those who
        leave the cult and then be an apologist for Islam, which calls for the
        death penalty for apostates — and frequently carries that out in
        multiple countries — is beyond myopic.

        • TonyOrtega

          We very rarely delete comments. And in fact, we did not delete yours. I now see three responses by you here to Atack’s comment, and in two of them you are complaining that the third got deleted.

          I don’t know why you can’t see all three of them. Disqus can be problematic, and frankly I don’t spend much time monitoring it. It’s a plug-in, and not a part of the website that I spend much time in.

          Please, be our guest: You can argue with Jon Atack all you want. But your accusations about us censoring you are way off.

          • FOTF2012

            Thank you, Tony, for your response. And please (Tony and readers) accept my apology for concluding, wrongly, that my disappearing comments, one of which is now again visible to me (and which was largely a recap of an earlier comment which is still astray — and that’s fine since it would have been duplicated by what now appears), was a result of an intentional action. It sounds like it was some sort of Disqus glitch, as Tony mentions.

        • Jon Atack

          I’m sorry that I do not have time to refute all of your dead agent statements, but let’s turn simply to your belief that Wahhabism forms more than one per cent of the Muslim population – here is Wikipedia’s entry on the number of Wahhabis: One of the more detailed estimates of religious population in the Persian Gulf is by Mehrdad Izady who estimates, “using cultural and not confessional criteria”, only 4.56 million Wahhabis in the Persian Gulf region, about 4 million from Saudi Arabia, (mostly the Najd), and the rest coming overwhelmingly from the Emirates and Qatar.[23] Most Sunni Qataris are Wahhabis (46.9% of all Qataris)[23] and 44.8% of Emiratis are Wahhabis,[23] 5.7% of Bahrainis are Wahhabis, and 2.2% of Kuwaitis are Wahhabis.[23] They account for roughly 0.5% of the world’s Muslim population.[312]

          You suggest that we should not criticise movements that do not advocate beheading seems rather strange – I think we should be able to criticise anything that is dangerous. That Scientology destroys the lives of Sea Org members and bankrupts its followers seems enough for me.

          I return to the original point – I’m not writing a history of religion (though I have read about thirty books about Islam over the years), I’m writing about Scientology, so it is sensible to restrict my examples (or ‘cherry-pick’ as you have it).

          • FOTF2012

            Dead agent arguments? Please. That’s a red herring to derail the discussion instead of being logical. Look at the first number you threw out: “only” _4.56 million_ Wahhabis in the Gulf Area? You may want to read more about Wahhabism, Salafism, and other fundamentalist, traditionalist branches of Islam that are adamantly opposed to Western civilization and its values. If even 1% of that 4.56 million “radicalized” to contribute to the almost 30,000 Islamic terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11, that would be close to 50,000 terrorists. And we’ve seen what just one (Orlando, Nice), two (San Bernardino), or several (Bataclan, Charlie Hebdo) terrorists can do.

            You falsely say I suggest that “we should not criticize movements that do not advocate beheading”! Absolutely not correct. That would not be a position I hold. Since you threw in Scientology jargon for “dead agent” I’ll comment that you are not “duplicating.” What I am suggesting that you, Jon, appear unwilling to criticize a group — radical Islamists — who are doing far worse physical and psychological damage both numerically and in severity compared to Scientology. That does not mean that Scientology does not deserve criticism — it does in many ways. What is inexplicable to you have clearly taken the blinders off regarding Scientology, but seem to be an apologist for even worse treatment of people by a religion.

            And the worst victims of radical Islam? Other Muslims of the “wrong” flavor, Christians, Jews, women, gays, and so on. You surely know that the major schism in Islam is the Shia-Sunni divide. You should also understand then that the mere 4.56 million Wahhabis you mention officially consider the Shia to all be heretics, and thus are subject to punishment up to death under Islamic law (sharia). This divide is not a theoretical risk of death — it is at the heart of the matter in Syria and Aleppo where hundreds of thousands have died.

            You cannot of course show where Scientology has been the source of hundreds of thousands of deaths in 2016, or during its entire existence. Yet you combat Scientology — and rightly so, we agree on that — yet naively overlook the risks of radical Islam — and on that oversight, we profoundly disagree. The point is not to quit criticizing Scientology, it is to quit defending even more virulent strains of religion.

          • FOTF2012

            Dead agent arguments? Please. That’s a red herring to derail the discussion instead of being logical. Look at the first number you threw out: “only” _4.56 million_ Wahhabis in the Gulf Area? You may want to read more about Wahhabism, Salafism, and other fundamentalist, traditionalist branches of Islam that are adamantly opposed to Western civilization and its values. If even 1% of that 4.56 million “radicalized” to contribute to the almost 30,000 Islamic terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11, that would be close to 50,000 terrorists. And we’ve seen what just one (Orlando, Nice), two (San Bernardino), or several (Bataclan, Charlie Hebdo) terrorists can do.

            You falsely say I suggest that “we should not criticize movements that do not advocate beheading”! Absolutely not correct. That would not be a position I hold. Since you threw in Scientology jargon for “dead agent” I’ll comment that you are not “duplicating.” What I am suggesting that you, Jon, appear unwilling to criticize a group — radical Islamists — who are doing far worse physical and psychological damage both numerically and in severity compared to Scientology. That does not mean that Scientology does not deserve criticism — it does in many ways. What is inexplicable may be that you have taken the blinders off regarding Scientology, but seem to be an apologist for even worse treatment of people by a different brand of another religion.

            And the worst victims of radical Islam? Other Muslims of the “wrong” flavor, Christians, Jews, women, gays, and so on. You surely know that the major schism in Islam is the Shia-Sunni divide. You should also understand then that the mere 4.56 million Wahhabis you mention officially consider the Shia to all be heretics, and thus are subject to punishment up to death under Islamic law (sharia). This divide is not a theoretical risk of death — it is at the heart of the matter in Syria and Aleppo where hundreds of thousands have died.

            You cannot of course show where Scientology has been the source of hundreds of thousands of deaths in 2016, or during its entire existence. Yet you combat Scientology — and rightly so, we agree on that — yet naively overlook the risks of radical Islam — and on that oversight, we profoundly disagree. The point is not to quit criticizing Scientology, it is to quit defending even more virulent strains of religion.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      “ARC is a truth power of a spiritual being because it’s a competent of theta.”

      WTF?
      And these people pretend to teach communication …

      • Xenu is my Homeboy

        Are you saying you have MU? Consult a Hubbard approved dictionary. 🙂

        • Mockingbird

          I made that mistake. It’s not a good idea.

      • jazzlover

        Holy shit! roflmao

      • Jimmy3

        Becoming an ARC generator is not cheap. You’re talking about a total rewiring, and just the insulation alone will cost you an ARM.

        • Mockingbird

          And A LEG.

  • Baby

    Kids just left.. they wore me out.. Had so much fun. Daughter and 16 year old. We laughed our butts off.. So freakin hot. Went to pool everyday. It is really a nice pool HUGE .. We aren’t really beach people.

    Plus we didn’t want to leave the Island.

    I slept on chase lounge when I needed to.. still have the cipro effects. So I rested when needed. Went out to dinner every night.

    Saw sunset every night. Hugged and kissed a lot. At any given time I was massaging them.. They used and abused me knowing I did relaxation massages..

    ” Mimi will you rub my neck..? ” ” It’s my turn.. Mom will you rub my legs? ” Back and forth.. So at any given time I was massaging one of them. hahaha

    I try to stay off the computer when they come.. It is just too precious of time with them.. They did say they would never come here in August again because of the heat..ugh.. and it was freakin hot.

    Also visited my friend from Ohio who stayed an hour away on vacation with her hubby and daughter.. and jumped in the ocean with my clothes on.. that is how hot it was.

    Came home and slept for like 15 hrs. just exhausted. Mac is in Ohio for a family event. So the sound of silence is fabulous.. Miss you guys.. xo baby f5

    • Observer

      <3

      • Baby

        <3 smooches..

    • Dibythesea

      It sounds like you had big fun Baby! So happy for you!

      OT: I want to thank you for inspiring me to try and quit smoking. I bought a vaporizer and once I was used to it, I put the cigarettes down. That was 24 days ago! I love being a non- smoker!
      THANK YOU BABY! You are a doll;)

      • daisy

        Big congratulations, it was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

      • Jimmy3

        Put that e-whatever down and come have a smoke with me?

        • Dibythesea

          i didnt quit smoking everything;)

          • Baby

            hahahahahaha

          • Kim O’Brien

            whew …i was gonna cry

            • Dibythesea

              It is medicinal and I need the medicine😇

      • Baby

        OMG DI… You are welcome..I am so happy and proud of you.. 24 days is a lifetime… YAY ..Vaping is wonderful.. I fell in love immediately.. Smokers need the ritual of holding, inhaling, etc…

        and of course Nic.. I’m down to 6 mg..and started at 24. It beats the 3,000 chemicals in Cigs. It’s my only vice since I stopped chasing men. ( wink)

        The thought now of even having a cig…makes me gag.. ugh..I did it once when I ran out of battery.. and the taste was absolutely horrible..

        I am doing such a happy dance for you darlin..

        Oh and I gave you the wrong info about my friend’s sister when I was at Howdy Con.. She is still in and high level.. but left the Big Blue years ago.. A LONG LONG LONG time ago.. ( That’s all she ( my friend would tell me.. ) We don’t discuss Scn. at all. f5

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b36e8dad218da9b3de7d5f63965737fedbe65e20fb3d9c01a700c6e2097ec8e0.gif

        • Dibythesea

          Thanks baby;) it’s been much easier to quit this time. I feel like this time it will be successful!
          I started at 3mg of nic and didn’t have a problem so I will go to 0% nic next time I buy some juice.
          I’m sorry about your friends sister:( Hopefully she will open her eyes someday

          • Baby

            She’s been in a long time.. She is pretty radical about it Di.. It is easier to quit..I tried so many times.. and vapin does it..

            You started at 3? Wow.. I’m impressed.. xoxo I will be curious as to how you do on 0.. If you feel like your slipping go back to 3.. yay .. xoxo love baby

      • Free Minds, Free Hearts

        Huge congratulations, Dibythesea!

        • Dibythesea

          Thank you Free Minds!

    • Kestrel

      It’s good to hear from you, Baby!

      • Baby

        Hi Mr. Kes.. thanks. Am chillin now and taking life very easy.. xo

    • Kim O’Brien

      glad you are feeling better 😉 we missed you

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      what a great visit!!!

      • Baby

        It was very relaxing and fun.. thanks Free..xo

    • Pezza

      <3

      • Baby

        <3

        • Pezza

          Hi Baby! I’m almost done with the semester! So far i have all As, and got 15 grad schools all over the US to apply to. <3

          • Baby

            OMG … YAY I am so excited for you P.. I am also so very proud. One day you will be able to assess me psychologically ..

            No one else has been able to..hahahha You were absolutely one of my bright lights at Howdy con..

            You made my day honey.. xox baby..

    • TheMirrorThetan

      Baby! Ive missed you. 🙂

      • Baby

        I missed you too Pookey.. xoxo ( Thanks boo..it is nice to be missed!)

  • Outlook

    Has anyone explained to Mr. Atack (lol) that it’s a logical fallacy to disprove a subject using the very same terms or axioms the subject was built on?
    Anyway, we believed that Mr. Atack was moving on from attacking Scientology. Is he still here?
    Is his deprogramming business not prospering when used with other religions?

    • Xenu is my Homeboy

      Which logical fallacy does it come under? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

      • Outlook

        I would say “contradictory premises”. He is challenging a premise using factors build on that same premise.

        • Mockingbird

          He has made a claim. Scientology doctrine contains contradictions. He presents examples of those contradictions.

          He isn’t trying to prove Scientology is valid, just that it is a self contradicting subject. Your fallacy doesn’t apply in this context.

        • Xenu is my Homeboy

          I would say “contradictory premises”. He is challenging a premise using factors build on that same premise.

          Then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

          Contradictory Premises – Essentially, a proposition is contradictory when it asserts and denies the same thing.

          This clearly doesn’t fit the bill. Want to try again?

          • Outlook

            That’s the one! He use Scientology to contradict Scientology!

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              Showing something is internally inconsistent is not a fallacy.

            • Kim O’Brien

              that is because you are his audience . The rest of us already know that you are in a cult and have been conned . If the shit worked ….we would not be having this conversation and Jon would be using his super powers

    • gtsix

      “it’s a logical fallacies”… do you mean one or many? Because one would be “a logical fallacy” or many would be “many logical fallacies”… or you could be succint and say “it’s logically fallacious “. Just trying to understand your communication.

      And then (as homeboy provides below) please entertain us with which of these logical fallacies are being used.

      • Outlook

        Edited. Thanks

        • gtsix

          My pleasure.

    • Mockingbird

      Which fallacy are you claiming he used ?

      It’s not a fallacy to claim a subject has contradictions within it and to then provide evidence those contradictions exist by quoting the doctrine within the subject.

      Are you referring to something else ? Who are we ?

      Whether Mr Atack’s moved on or not is irrelevant to his claims validity.

      If you want to discuss fallacies you might example ad hominem, tu quoque, the genetic fallacy and the fallacy fallacy.

    • Mockingbird

      If you want to prove Scientology is valid you are quite welcome. Show me a Motherfucking clear as they say. An OT can heal cancer, end war, feed the starving, shelter the homeless.

      Step up to the plate. The burden of proof to prove Scientology is genuine is on anyone claiming it is true.

      • Outlook

        “An OT can heal cancer, end war, feed the starving, shelter the homeless.”

        Never hear of that.

        • Mockingbird

          Really ? You ever check out Scientology doctrine ?

          • Outlook

            Do you believe in free will?

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              What kind of free will? Compatibalism?

            • Mockingbird

              It’s a red herring to derail us.

            • Outlook

              The one that it’s not dictated by your brain’s chemical reaction.

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              That doesn’t pin point which one you believe in. Consult the literature on the subject and you will see that there are several different varieties. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

            • Outlook

              Do you mean that i need to consult some literature to find out if I have a free will?
              Or do you mean that my brain need some literature to find out that “HE” is in charge?
              Do I have a choice here?
              lol

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              You have me pondering a vexing philosophical question. Do scientologists have free will?

            • gtsix

              What does Ron write? Shouldn’t we have some written data on this topic?

            • Mockingbird

              Irrelevant red herring.

              Here’s something from Hubbard:

              Raise the dead – Magazine Articles on Level 0, Checksheet 1968, “Dissemination of Material” p.75
              “A child had died, was dead, had been pronounced dead by a doctor, and the auditor, by calling the thetan back and ordering him to take over the body again brought the child to life.”
              Cure migraines – Dianetics Today (1975 Ed.), p.125; also see HCOB 15 Jan. ’79 “Handling with Auditing”
              Cure cancer – The History Of Man (1961), p. 20
              “Cancer has been eradicated by auditing out conception and mitosis.”
              Cure skin cancer – All About Radiation (1979 Ed.), p.114

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              Don’t forget about getting rid of glasses via auditing- Dianetic Auditor’s Bulletin, Jan.1952

            • Mockingbird

              Yep.

            • Outlook

              Actually my second book one auditing session got rid of of my glasses, although I know some Clears who still wear glasses.

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              Those bulging eyes of yours seem to suggest a thyroid problem. Those pesky engrams.

            • daisy

              Sorry didn’t see your joke , didn’t mean to step on it.

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              The more jokes the better!

            • daisy

              Look at your bulging eyes and get back your glasses ,and oh yeah your religion is a cult

            • Outlook

              “your religion is a cult”
              Well. it seems that everyone is in some kind of a cult.

            • Lousy Ratatouille

              Why so serious? It’s Saturday. Have a drink!

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              … but not the Kool Aid!

            • Mockingbird

              Glug, glug now you tell me !

            • gtsix

              Shoulda stopped after the first glug. That’s what my gramma tole me. Granted, she was discussing schnapps, not kool-aid. Still applies! No backsies.

            • Mockingbird

              I should be okay. I just chug a lugged gallons for twenty five years. I don’t feel so good.

            • Outlook

              Well, swallow this new one for other 25 years.

            • Mockingbird

              Gulp.I might not have twenty five years left.

            • Mockingbird

              Is that a marriage proposal ? I am taken.

            • Mockingbird

              False equivalence. Cult has a specific definition. I recommend Margaret Singer for that.

            • Mockingbird

              In A History of Man, Hubbard says OT’s “emit a considerable electrical flow.” While you might be able to think of some nice ways to use such a power, Hubbard’s proposed examples include giving “somebody a very bad shock,” “putting out his eyes” or “cutting him in half.”

            • Mockingbird

              Hubbard was very clear about keeping this all hidden: “Let’s not go upsetting governments and putting on a show to ‘prove’ anything to homo sapiens for a while; it’s a horrible temptation to knock off hats at fifty yards and read books a couple of countries away.”
              CONTROLLING THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU
              If you have slightly more megalomaniacal goals than just controlling coffeemakers, once you reach OT level 7, Scientology promises that you can control what people think and how they act. Hubbard said in A History of Man that, once at that level, a Scientologist could project a feeling onto another person and make them feel sad or happy as desired. In fact, according to people with access to official Scientology course requirements, a large part of level 7 ( old OT VII) is to practice projecting thoughts and feelings onto other people. Before you work your way up to controlling the thoughts of other humans, it is recommended that you communicate first with plants and then animals.
              BECOME LIKE A GOD AND CREATE YOUR OWN WORLD
              Once you can control everything, there is really just one more thing to do, and that is become a god-like being that can create its own reality. In both Dianetics and A History of Man, Hubbard refers to the “godlike” being you will become if you follow his program. Another Hubbard book called Scientology 8-8008 discusses how to “postulate universes into existence,” and promises that “a Thetan who is completely rehabilitated can… create his own universe; a person who is able to create his own universe… is able to create illusions perceivable by others.” Tom Cruise is reportedly at this level.

              So once you spend the necessary money and complete the extensive training, you should be able to make your own world where you control absolutely everything. But once again Hubbard warns against taking it too far: “Don’t go off on wild chases after fourth and fifth dimensions, time warps and other time-space universes.” Sound advice.

              L

            • Kim O’Brien

              of course we have free will …we have no choice

              ~ CH

          • Outlook

            Well, I can send you my picture if you like.

            • Mockingbird

              I don’t want dick pics !

        • Mockingbird

          And you never addressed the first question. Show me a Motherfucking clear. Not one has been provided yet. Unless you count Sonya Bianca.

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnNd1_vlbs

      • Outlook

        What is true for me may be not true for someone else. None has or need a “burden of prove”!
        Scientology UNLIKE psychiatry is not enforced to anyone!

        • gtsix

          “burden of proof”, fyi.

        • Mockingbird

          The burden of proof is a fundamental to logic and debate. It’s at the heart of scientific method. Hubbard promised full scientific validation would be forthcoming in 1950. Any day now.

          • Xenu is my Homeboy

            Hubbard is stuck on Venus. The freight train drivers are on strike.

            • Mockingbird

              Not again.

            • Outlook

              well, we are stuck here on Earth, strike or not.

            • Mockingbird

              Huh ? Have astronauts gone to the moon !?

            • Outlook

              Why, did they came back?

            • Mockingbird

              Well, if people can go the moon we may not be stuck on earth. A quick hop and off you go.

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              Not if you’re OT. They can create there own universes.

            • Outlook

              I’m not OT. But I have my own universe.

            • Xenu is my Homeboy

              Are you saying you are in a world of you’re own? That I can believe.

            • Outlook

              Well. everyone are somewhat in their own world. Don’t you think?

        • Mockingbird

          You may as well never debate anyone on anything if you don’t recognize a burden of proof. Your premise is “I can believe anything because I believe it, no more reason needed, I win”

          Sure. That’s the logic of a three year old.

        • Mockingbird

          You may want to bone up on Socratic debate, rhetoric and logical fallacies before you debate anyone, or not it’s your life.

        • Mockingbird

          Have you ever been on the RPF ? Or Freewinds ? Or in the hole ? Chain locker ? Musical chairs ?

          • Outlook

            Pluvo knows me. 😉

            • Mockingbird

              Is he Pluto’s cousin ?

            • flyonthewall

              Pluvo doesn’t know. Pluvo gave you info when he questioned you and you just latched onto it. I think you’re a mentally ill troll pretending to be a scientologist

            • Outlook

              Pluvo knows and met me!

            • flyonthewall

              I don’t think so. I think he gave you too much info when questioning you and you let him believe he met you

            • pluvo

              Definitely a Scientologist. He also mentioned things in the conversation only somebody who knows about Freewinds matters could know … or sb from OSA who is working with the OSA files and pretending to be that person. He was dodging quite some questions… which he normally just could have answered.

            • flyonthewall

              what specifically does he know about the Freewinds that isn’t avail online?

            • pluvo

              names

            • flyonthewall

              the Patricia name? That showed in a google search for me

            • pluvo

              Could you give me the link, pls. And “Vince” and circumstances. It is very unlikely that anyone who is/was not in Scn would put it in the context. His Scio speak is genuine.
              What gets me thinking is the different writing styles. There were fake ESL Scio trolls here before. But then again, I’ve also better and worse days.

            • flyonthewall

              meh, looking back it’s not really anything. Just a mention on Pierre Ether’s page as someone he audited.

              http://pierre-ethier.blogspot.com/2013/02/partial-list-of-public-audited.html

              You could be right

            • pluvo

              Oh, I thought the list was boring – it is not. There is listed Lamia Khashoggi, who was/is the wife of Adnan Khashoggi who was among others an arms dealer.
              Once there were very hectically made preparations on the ship for the possible arrival of one of the richest people respectively his wife (from Flag). It was confidential as who it was, but I had the notion that it was Khashoggi and when I asked I got no answer but also no denial. It was a grotesque scene for me and I was sneering inwardly because there was such a big kerfuffle and I knew he was an arms dealer. ‘So spiritual’. Money talks.

        • Mockingbird

          Do you actually know anything about Scientology ? Are you just trolling us ?

        • Harpoona Frittata

          But if the “abilities gained” column of the grade chart is meant to be taken seriously, then that’s what is guaranteed or promised to all who pay for that service and then complete it. So, while it’s totally correct to note that what’s true for you is what what you judge on a subjective basis to be true for you, what’s guaranteed by the cherch isn’t that just some or a few people who undergo auditing at that level will gain those abilities, but that ALL of them will.

          Besides, some of these supposedly conferred abilities are ones that you would need to demonstrate, at least in private and for yourself, in order to truthfully be able to attest to completing that level, right? After all, being at cause over MEST on all dynamics (or whatever the current claim is) means that you and everyone else who attain it should at least be able to, say, for example, psychically scoot a gum wrapper across a table for a few inches…a pretty low bar there. But, incredibly, no OaTy 8 has ever been able to objectively demonstrate that they can do anything like that.

          Accomplish that feat just once in a carefully controlled experimental situation and the world of science would be at your door, followed by a tsunamai of interest in $cn from the public. If it can be proven, then there’s every reason to do it because it would boom $cn like never before. The fact that it hasn’t demonstrated – not even once – means to be that it’s very probably not an ability that anyone has gained, despite attesting to it.

          I love new sciency stuff and major discoveries that open up whole new frontiers, but sadly I don’t think this is one of them…but please get back to me if I’m wrong here and some OT 8 actually can do what’s promised, k?

          Btw, are you looking forward to gaining those abilities yourself at some future point in time? If so, then I think that you owe it to yourself before you plonk down all that cash to determine if anyone has actually gained the abilities promised at that level of the grade chart. It’s a lot of money, so I think that it’s just a financially prudent move for anyone to take.

          After all, becoming OT won’t necessarily open the floodgates of prosperity (contrary to what most rege weasels will say). Just look around at the OT’s in your area who are not doing that hot.

    • Jimmy3

      It’s illogical fellatios to think one could still be so suctioned to Hubbard’s knob after all they’ve read about him and his operation.

      You fell for a scam… It’s okay. It happens to everyone at some point. It’s okay to accept it and move on

      • Outlook

        Thank you

        • Jimmy3

          You’re welcome. But it’s not your fault.

          • Kim O’Brien

            at this point ..yes, it’s his fault

            • Jimmy3

              Dammit Kim! I was trying to have a Robin Williams/Matt Damon moment with him.

            • Mockingbird

              How do you like them apples ?

            • Kim O’Brien

              aw shit buddy ..i’m sorry 🙁 Here …lemme set you up again

              ” But it’s not your fault ”

              ….take it away ” Outlook”

            • Jimmy3

              No. Look at me with those offensively buggy eyes, Outlook. Look at me…

              It’s not your fault.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      “Anyway, we believed”

      Who’s “we”?

    • Mockingbird

      So, if you are ready to prove Hubbard’s claims go right ahead. He had plenty, raising the dead, curing cancer, telekinesis, telepathy, exteriorization with full perceptics. Lots of claims.

    • flyonthewall

      why don’t you stop pretending you’re a scientologist

    • nottrue

      Very interesting…..

      • Outlook

        Indeed…

    • Harpoona Frittata

      You’d have to explain that one in more detail for it to make sense to me.

      The “terms” of a subject are not the same thing as its “axioms”. For example, the $cn term “suppressive person” is pretty close to synonymous with “sociopath,” so to use the scientologese word in an argument against $cn doesn’t require you to buy into the belief system itself because there’s an equivalent meaning word that does not depend upon $cn for its meaning that could be substituted for it. If anything, it’s more of stylistic consideration than anything else.

      As for Mr. Atack using $cn’s axioms as logical foundation to mount an argument against it, I’m not sure what you would be referring to there. I don’t recognize any $cn axiom that he’s grounding his argument upon.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Trolls Slouching towards Bethlehem
    Ideas and practices of $cientology are not above scrutiny or honest exploration.
    Those who espouse them are worthy of being treated with dignity.
    But nuance and subtlety vanish before certainty.
    Fanatics of all stripes polarize.
    Your purpose is …?

    Would you defend the indefensible with slur and ad hominem?
    Civilized discourse and respect is the norm here,
    Deeply held convictions should not obviate that.
    I abhor $cientology.
    I do not hate $cientologists.
    I am no friend of monotheism but I am not against Jews, Christians or Muslims.
    Liberal free society depends on this approach and the constitution enshrines it.
    A free press demands it and strengthens it.

    If your father had trained suicide-bombers once ( it’s a short career),
    in paradise you will be given 47 virgins bottles of organic
    cold-pressed virgin olive oil and some halal band-aid, some mince
    spices and a stale McDonalds bun.

    Religious fundamentalism is about as much fun as a bad dose of
    dysentery in a canoe in a tropical storm.
    With no toilet paper.
    Political fundamentalism is as vile.

    $cientology’s utter absence of a sense of humour and it’s absolute insanity
    has never been more clearly illustrated to a wide public than by Tom Cruise,
    in yesterday’s video and on Oprah.
    For this, I am profoundly grateful.
    Now Jon, in his trenchant and detailed manner, performs another incisive autopsy.

    You want to win.
    OK, you win.
    Gold-medal intergalactic shit-stirrer

    Please grow up.
    Or get help.

    • Jon Atack

      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

      • Hi, Jon. Do you remember a little joke Hubbard made in some of the Study Tapes about a prank some hunters pulled on a their newbie fellow who was standing in a cold swamp, shivering, waiting for ducks to come, while they were drinking and laughing in a warm cabin nearby? Or something similar. Pretty sure Ron was chuckling at his own joke too. Anyway, in retrospect, it seems that was another hint of his that we are being duped.
        Eta: Thank you.

      • Techie

        Acknowledging poet W B Yeats http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/04/07/no-slouch/ but I love the last two lines. It is silly season here in the US and “passionate intensity” of the worst is everywhere.

  • MaxSpaceman

    “When I tell you, ‘Heinz Tomato Soup can change your life,’

    “I. am. not. kidding.

    “Grab the cans!”

    • gtsix

      There’s a grilled cheese sandwich included in the cost, right?

      If not, I’m calling ripoff.

      • Jon Atack

        Just send us the $15k for the soup and you can have two sandwiches – any filling you like.

        • gtsix

          Deal! One cheese and one with bacon and cheese.

          Thank goodness Big Pharma came through with the $ this week. Else I’d be sammichless.

          • Juicer77

            I would gladly give you $15K tomorrow for a sammich today.

            • gtsix

              Out exchange! Ethics!

            • Bobby Tolberto aka TDA

              BLT or GTFO

            • Eivol Ekdal

              No, but you can have a hamburger and pay Tuesday.

          • Jon Atack

            Deal – it is a human right (and probably an ursine one too) that should never be denied. Now, is that Canadian bacon?

            • gtsix

              Naw, streaky bacon all the way.

            • Jon Atack

              Smoked or unsmoked (I’m presuming an air cure)?

            • gtsix

              Smoked of course, thick cut with a hungarian paprika and maple glaze.

            • Jon Atack

              Coming right up

  • Vaquera

    Apropos of nothing, i could drown in his voice…
    https://youtu.be/VSOH4RvkiJE

    • That is awesome.

    • Just got little chills listening to a bearded man. Almost like meeting Fly.

      • Vaquera

        🙂

        I’m mesmerized by Stapleton’s voice. Shreds my heart, but I can’t turn it off. If you have $10 to spare, download his album, Traveler.
        https://youtu.be/Lq3Av1IA8rc

        • Qbird

          yes yes yes – Traveler – can’t stop listening to it. 🙂

          • Vaquera

            Ditto

    • Unex Skcus

      I love Sinead O’Connor’s version of that song:
      https://youtu.be/-ZCiHsIfrOg

    • Qbird

      This one is so fun, Vaq… https://youtu.be/vhzpFrNG9DA

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    Found this piece of art at the RA in when I was in London. The second part of the quote explains DM more than anything I have read in a long time (refresh):

    • flyonthewall

      hello

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        How you doin’?

        • flyonthewall

          chillin’, little bit of illin’. You?

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            Same as you, basically. Fo shizzle.

            Woke up one morning and thought I was a zebra. I’m all better now though.

            • flyonthewall

              i hate that

    • Kestrel

      I was beginning to think you had experienced an unfortunate lake-related incident. Good to see you.

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        If I had had an unfortunate accident I would have made sure to tell you guys. Just had a bit more on my plate than usual lately. Good to see you too.

        So what is up with Fly and his sudden interest in men..?

        • gtsix

          My mom said it was just a phase…..

          • HillieOnTheBeach

            Sock outted?

            • gtsix

              As a card carrying member of the ghey mafia, lesbo division, I do not go near straight men and their socks. Lalalalala don’t wanna know nuttin… Lalalalala

        • Kestrel

          It’s not my story to tell, but it seems to be targeted toward one individual on a periodic basis. Sounds like an experiment to me.

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            Whomever it is is a lucky guy. I guess we will never know who it is though…

            • flyonthewall

              it’s you Johnny. It’s always been you

            • Dibythesea

              That’s so sweet Fly!

            • flyonthewall

              innit?

            • Dibythesea

              Yes and I’m sure Johnny is blushing right now;)

            • flyonthewall

              that’s why I neglected to hang out with him in Cleveland, bc I knew I wouldn’t be able to restrain myself

            • Dibythesea

              SMH well there is always Colorado! #HowdyCon2017

            • flyonthewall

              i will be there in thetan

            • Dibythesea

              NO

            • flyonthewall

              🙁 ‘fraid so. Unless I find a bunch of money under a tree or something…

            • Kim O’Brien

              money is made of paper . Paper is made of trees . Money grows on trees .

              I have decided

            • flyonthewall

              it shall be so

            • Kim O’Brien

              bullshit . You will be there in person . I have decided

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              And I thought you avoided me because I smelled bad, or something.

              Look, I’m sure you will find someone some day that will make you happy. Until then you can watch my YouTube videos if you want. OK, buddy?

            • flyonthewall

              *sniff* ok

            • Dibythesea

              😂😂😂

            • Fly Lady

              Yeah fly, here’s hoping you find somebody great… someone special. you deserve it.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              Poor guy. I hate to turn him down like that, but it’s like a band aid – you just have to rip it off in one swift motion.

              He’s very funny though, just like you. Come to think of it, maybe you two should get together, I’m sure you would hit it off.

            • TheMirrorThetan

              *Snortle* You pair crack me up. 🙂

        • flyonthewall

          man, singular. it’s man not men. And the heart wants what it wants, this cannot be helped.

    • Jon Atack

      I hope you are being huge and wonderful about DM here…

  • Shanester

    Jon Atack’s article today has been a dismayingly eye-opening experience for me. He said he left Scientology because he believed in it. Indeed, the beginning of the route out for many people is the realization that the misapplication of L. Ron Hubbard’s “Tech” is a systemic problem in the modern Church.

    I’ve always maintained a smug attitude that I, different from most other ex-members, left the cult because it was too horrible to bear. True, after twenty-six years of indoctrination, the horribleness was at a very high level, but still, I, alone among the inside crowd, figured out that Scientology itself was a rotten affair, never mind how applied or misapplied the Tech might be.

    But did I really? Now, upon reflection, not so much.

    I think back to the moment I knew I would never step foot in a Scientology organization again, the moment the last straw broke my camel’s back. And do you know what that moment was? It was a moment of misapplication of the Tech. I haven’t thought about it in a long time; it’s such an insignificant thing now. But that’s what it was: gross out-Tech. And it drove me away.

    Later, I justified leaving by itemizing all the terrible things that had been done to me and deciding I had figured out that Scientology was manipulative, evil, and dangerous. But if Hubbard’s hermetically woven rules had been applied to me as they had been written, I may never have begun my journey of self-realization.

    One of the effects of Scientology is a ludicrously inflated sense of self-worth. When you’re raised to be better than everyone else, it’s hard to allow yourself to realize that you’re not. Today I learned that my journey out of Scientology is similar to that of everyone else. Sometimes the realization that you’re not as special as you thought you were can actually come as a relief. There is no reason to hold oneself apart. In fact, it’s a whole lot of unnecessary work to continue to do so.

    • Juicer77

      Amazingly honest post, Shanester. Thank you for sharing it.

    • gtsix

      Indeed… the realization that we’re not special is both good and bad to deal with. Good because perspective! But bad because perspective!

      We’re human, we are beautiful and ugly creatures. Learning that being a good human is a result of the sum of our actions is humbling. Some never learn this (yes I’m looking at you Lochte! Sorry… can’t let that go yet)

      • Shanester

        Remember his MTV show? “What Would Ryan Lochte Do?” Unfortunately, we found out. Srsly,
        Ryan? Rly? Why why why? You do realize he just made dying one’s hair silver totally uncool?

        • madame duran

          Quick comment: he dyed his hair green but it quickly faded and turned grey/silver once it came in contact with chlorine (and whatever else that was in the Olympic pool in Rio).
          Ryan Lochte is another douche.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            One hot piece of douche.

    • flyonthewall

      nice to see you again

      • Shanester

        Thanks!

    • Scream Nevermore

      Just be happy that you’re out, regardless of the reason.

    • Scientology IS gross out-tech/ethics/admin.

      • Shanester

        Ha! Yes, exactly. Just “gross” is good enough for me nowadays, like how Hubbard was a gross slob who excreted a gross product.

    • Jon Atack

      Long long ago my friend Mitch Beedie set out to write The Way to Smugness – which is pretty much what Scn is. One of the implants is The Only One – almost every one of us believed we had special knowledge – I know what Hubbard means – this is narcissism pure and simple. I’ve listened to so many smug people over the years telling me which process works and which doesn’t, or where Hubbard went wrong. A personal favourite was the ‘OT’ who shoved aside contradictions in Hubbard’s accounts by saying he had run two bodies. When faced with the truth about his shameful and cowardly conduct in WWII, she dismissed that too by saying she knew he was a war hero, because she had been with him. I was pleased a few years later to see her featured in a newspaper expose of the clut. I think she still believed she was the only one who had understood, but at least there was some progress!

      • Mockingbird

        I don’t know where my belief he never had any valid technology at all ranks. He plagiarized lots of failed ideas and tried to use covert hypnosis along with filing off the serial numbers to make things seem original then repackaged it all as his space opera pseudoscience mish mash and lied his ass off, but really didn’t have an original thought in his head. I hardly think Abreactive Therapy, Volney Mathison’s hypnotic guided imagery therapy and meter or the loaded language Hubbard used with the highly authoritarian study technology count as original or good ideas.

        I hope it’s not too smug to say this.

    • madame duran

      But if Hubbard’s hermetically woven rules had been applied to me as they had been written, I may never have begun my journey of self-realization.

      But here’s the thing…what Hubbard wrote was full of contradictions and thus ripe for errors or misapplications. It’s a no win situation when it comes to the “tech” because despite the claims of scientific precision and OT perfection, Scientology is still riddled with mistakes. It has ALWAYS been that way. Transcription errors. Spelling errors. Human errors. Revisions. Misunderstoods. Outpoints. Yet when someone dares to point out or complain about these errors, they are labelled as the ones who are in the wrong.

      • Shanester

        Good point. Hubs tried to seal his system, but he was too lazy and sloppy to succeed.

    • MarcabExpat

      This is a terrific little write-up, and I hope you won’t be hard on yourself anymore. Because, after all, when you consider this:

      But if Hubbard’s hermetically woven rules had been applied to me as they had been written

      It’s good also to remember that wise principle:

      Scientology does not work as advertised. It does work as designed.

      Abuse is not an abberation in Scientology culture. It is the logical, unavoidable outcome of policy.

      You may have one policy that states that people must be treated fairly. But the underlying principle is that if you have having problems, you must be doing something wrong, and that if you can’t meet this or that standard, you are an enemy. Sooner or later, it will always work out that way. The system is rigged. The house always wins.

      • Shanester

        Well stated and accurate. Still, at that time, I wanted to become an auditor with dreams of saving the world, and the Sea Org actively and suppressively stopped me, in violation of Hubbard’s policy. So — I guess I have to thank both L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige for enabling me to walk away from Scientology. Their team effort is sure to drive anyone away.

        • MarcabExpat

          So you’re saying the way in is the way out? (LOL just kidding). I guess we should be glad that their policies makes their organization self-defeating, but it’s hard to laugh when those policies destroy so many lives.

          I’m very glad you’re out, sane and smart. You deserve to live happily ever after, and to make a real difference, not a fake one. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that to us, I think it’s really helpful to a lot of folks here.

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Thank you Shanester.

  • nottrue

    Why Kiristie Why…That says alot about Scientology. Wait I know they were all bigots https://twitter.com/KirstieObsessed/status/766760642128863234

    • daisy

      Usually the poor doesn’t rip off the poor sea org.

    • Draco

      Why try and give it to a big group? For the photo op?
      Why not just give it to the people that were homeless and on the street? Not a photo op?

    • Scream Nevermore

      Does anyone seriously believe that any organisation was turning down help after Katrina? Unless, of course, there were unacceptable strings attached, like Krusty dressing up as Mother Theresa, or Dainty Miss getting all the credit.

    • Illinoisian

      “$200,000 of new stuff” was probably a large cargo of “Way to Happiness” booklets with freshly printed ‘Katrina covers.’

      • Xenu is my Homeboy

        In other words, as useful as an inflatable dartboard or a chocolate fire blanket.

        • Graham

          When the M6 Toll motorway was being built here in the UK they used millions of unwanted paperbacks to underlay the road surface. So there’s hope yet for all those copies of The Weight of Crappiness!

          • Xenu is my Homeboy

            The roads are paved with TWTH.

            • gtsix

              Bah dum dum tish

          • April

            I’m not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but how exactly would that work long-term? Wouldn’t the paperbacks disintegrate, get compressed, etc. and make the road uneven?

            • Graham

              They were pulped, and according to this report were used as an ingredient of the top surface and not, as I had thought, as underlay:
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3330245.stm

              ETA: The Underground Bunker: Come for the Scientology gossip, stay for the civil engineering tips.

      • Observer

        Bingo

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      200K$ worth of new stuff she conveniently doesn’t bother to mention what it basically was [scientology pamphlets] and perhaps, maybe the BIG groups had priorities for legitimately more urgent needs.

      But Kirstie, from the comfort of her Beverly Hills home, throws shade on Katrina rescue workers. Gad she’s vile.

      • Juicer77

        ^^^

    • Harpoona Frittata

      But $200k worth of those little TWTH booklets (which don’t even make good toilet paper) and boxes and boxes of those cheesy “Scientology…the cruelest religion” t-shirts is not really going to be seen by anyone as just what they needed then, is it?

  • Mockingbird

    A while ago I posted a comment on John Mappin ‘s Facebook page about whole track space opera technology never being recovered. Here’s his response:

    Cause Resurgence technology as delivered at Flag is an example of recovered technology from whole track recall and it is being delivered now every day. John Mappin

    • Bless his heart.

      • Mockingbird

        Is that proof Hubbard recovered advanced technology ?

        • April

          Considering the CO$’s huge MU about the definition of “technology”…

          • Mockingbird

            That’s incredible.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      You know, it’s only a matter of time before Mappin, Duggan, Cruise, VoB (Voice of Bart), lil davery and some other super BIG Beings get together and psychically channel Elron in order to trot out some new on-Source tech…you just know some shady shit like that will be landing on the Porch of our Infirmity sometime soon 😉

      • Mockingbird

        Oh my. That will be zany. Will it be in the cult under Miscavige or as independent Scientologists ?

        • Harpoona Frittata

          It’s possible that when the meme is released all manner of folks will magically begin to be able to channel Elron 😉

          • Mockingbird

            Delusion will reign supreme !

  • Mockingbird

    Oh boy. I looked up Cause Resurgence Rundown and it is running around a track for weeks.

    That’s the proof John Mappin has for the space opera whole track research Hubbard conducted.

    Here’s my response:

    John Mappin,. The cause resurgence rundown is running around a track for days or weeks. Hardly the space opera tech I was thinking of. No FTL drive. No infinite energy source.

    • Xenu is my Homeboy

      Exactly, pack your running shows and cancel your gym subscription.

      • Mockingbird

        I am part of a Monty Python skit ?

    • Observer

      You run till you start hallucinating

      • Mockingbird

        And that is supposed to prove advanced technology was recovered by Hubbard ? WTF ?

        • Observer

          Well, if you’re hallucinating you don’t necessarily know you’re hallucinating, and you remember your hallucinations afterward, and you’re already primed to believe stuff that doesn’t make sense is what is real, so you believe what you were hallucinating is real, and hey presto! Lafayette was right!

          • Mockingbird

            I need pinks and greys for that to make sense ! Where is my vistaril !

      • Mockingbird

        The absurdity of the cause resurgence rundown is mind numbing to start with but to say it proves Hubbard recovered advanced technology ?

        • Observer

          Consider the source (no pun intended)

          • Mockingbird

            Yikes. Hubbard as source of making people run around until their teeth fall out !

    • MarcabExpat

      Yes, that’s the one that takes up almost a whole floor at Super Power.

      http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxm8f9KWUY1qzpyz2o1_1280.jpg

      • Mockingbird

        You can pay a fortune to literally run in circles. And buy a bridge. Oh boy.

        • MarcabExpat

          Seccheck wrote up a nice little feature in which they reprinted somebody’s success story, with pics of the inside of the room (artist’s conception) and the original rundown at Int, complete with some poor Sea Orc running around a palm tree until DM decides they’ve done enough penance. Bleagh:

          https://seccheck.wordpress.com/2015/03/10/cause-resurgence-rundown-running-in-circles/

          • Mockingbird

            That’s one of the craziest things I ever read. That’s beyond Gary Busey crazy !

            • MarcabExpat

              Yeeeeeee-ep. Yes it is.

  • Shanester

    Oh North Korea, why do you have to be so similar to Scientology?

    North Korea Says Diplomat Who Defected Is ‘Human Scum’

    • Science Doc

      Next defector should squirrel his own cult of personality and recruit some followers to live like animals so the great leader can enjoy prestige consumer items.

    • Len Zinberg

      KR to Miscavige: Karin Pouw is moonlighting. This is true. ML

  • randomity

    John, any chance you could provide details about the purif deaths, or the black belt? To be honest, when I read fantastic claims with no names or verifiable details, I find it very disheartening since I immediately flash on stuff like this (typical Hubbard bs from tech volume I):

    “One auditor arrived at a hospital to treat a psychotic only to find that the potential preclear had died before he had ever seen her. A careful and searching investigation revealed that the hospital authorities had tried to have this elderly woman in the best possible condition for the auditor, and had given her an electric shock to prepare her for processing! The woman’s spine had been fractured.”

    • Spike Robinson

      Hi, it’s past midnight in UK, but Jon answered this downthread – here’s what he said as to why he didn’t give names;

      “I didn’t know anyone who died, I found out about it about five years later, and my informant refused to identify them because he was implicated. The chap in the wheelchair had returned from Flag after almost 150 days on the Purif. I’m not sure how an ambulance would have helped – he was in the care of his wife. It would be wrong of me to name him – and probably not in the least helpful, these 35 years later. If he or his family choose to do something, I’d be happy to help.”

  • Observer

    Scientology’s FB cover photo.

    refresh

    • “DO” as in doo-doo?

    • Science Doc

      I’ve got enough to do.

    • randomity

      The biggest words are Scientology, Do Drugs.

    • Do Drugs. Don’t believe in Rugs!

  • And why should we Never Believe A Hypnotist? Well… (Reincarnate on galaxy far, far, away):

    • Xenu is my Homeboy

      Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don’t look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you’re under.

      • Snortle! 🙂

      • Look into my teeth…

        That would freeze anyone’s brain instantly!

    • Mockingbird

      Awesome.

    • MarcabExpat

      Ugh, I can actually hear his voice coming from that cartoon bubble!

      ETA: excellent book title is excellent.

  • Science Doc

    OT. I just finished reading Justin Cronin’s The Passage trilogy. Three ca. 2000 page horror/Sci fi novels that were real NY Times best sellers. These books actually deserved the inflated praise heaped upon a certain 1980s long piece of dreck that a few would have elevated undeservingly back onto best seller lists. Cronin said recently that the trilogy is in the pipeline for a multi season TV adaptation on Fox. There is enough in these books for at least 60 hours of television without interpolating much that isn’t actually in the books. Science Doc says it’s gripping and powerful. Check it out.

    • gtsix

      Give me a comparison for horror Sci fy, I have no understanding of the (sub)genre, but looking for a fall read. Thanks in advance.

      • Science Doc

        When the first book came out some reviewers who didn’t know the author thought Steven King had a new pen name and he had succeeded The Stand with a new masterpiece.

        • gtsix

          Interesting, thanks. Fall list is filling out.

      • ReallyMGM

        The Stand.

    • ReallyMGM

      Absolutely! The first book is right up there with King’s “The Stand.” I thought I would never get through it, then I went back and read it again! (Don’t do this on on audiobook or you willl be listening for months.)

    • ReallyMGM

      Virals

    • Techie

      Just figured out what book you were talking about – I really hated that trilogy with a passion. Now I see why, it is considered to be a horror novel. I just don’t “get” horror and avoid it wherever possible, but took this as a straight fantasy epic and was thrown for a complete loop.Anybody who thinks windmills are a reliable source of power, even with “batteries” that seem to be fuel cells without fuel (?!?) is not writing hard SF. I really had to put the book down and walk away for a bit when he described soldering an implanted device to a motherboard by dripping solder onto it. Too wrong to be wrong, simply a travesty to anyone who knows anything about electronics. So it’s not hard SF, could it just be fantasy? I tried to read it that way, but where fantasy is usually a bit uplifting this is just plain bloody and harsh. It is like the Robert Jordan books where if anything slows down the plot a bit, trollocs just start jumping out of the mists for a rousing battle. Completely artificial, doesn’t forward the plot, gives the book a desperate hopeless feeling and kills off piles of characters. What is the point?Now you call it horror and I get it. I don’t know why anybody reads Stephen King. If I want to be horrified I just read the evening news. But I guess in classic horror the scary bits are the point and the plot, character development, technology and other details are just window dressing. Like I say, I don’t get horror, but at least that explains it. No plot spoilers, but it was strange how the basic idea of why the plague started changes at least three times and is never clarified. You know as little about it at the end as at the start. At one point it is a kind of morality tale, then it is pure Paul Ehrlich “man is a virus” garbage, then it is a “peek inside the dark soul of a sociopath”, then it gets kind of cosmic. Never resolved. I hate those “peek inside the mind of a sociopath” garbage touchy feely amateur psychologizing bits more than any other part. Stephen King is worse, with his “Christine” serial killers who were really not such bad guys when you got to know them. If you want to know about sociopaths, read “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout, if you want to really know about serial killers read “The Anatomy of Evil” by Michael H Stone. You can get the shivers reading about these faky “viral” guys but the real thing is not a thrilling read. And it is not safe to think you know all about it from Stephen KIng. When you meet a real sociopath you will need some ammunition to deal with it. I don’t mean silver bullets. I mean real knowledge. You don’t find that in these books, and unless bloody death is your taste in entertainment you won’t find much entertainment either.

      • TheMirrorThetan

        Lots of us read Stephen King here, because we like his books. we like the stories, and characters.We get it -you don’t. Good for you.
        No one reads them to learn about real life serial killers.

        EDIT- Sorry Techie. Dont mind me. I just had a throwback to my english teacher Pissing on Stephen King and making us read shit I hated that he considered “Proper Literature.”
        Perhaps Scientology could help me with that? 🙂

        • Frodis73

          I get where you are coming from! King is so misunderstood by those that haven’t read any of his stuff, esp the later stuff.

          • TheMirrorThetan

            Yes he is. I know some critics will always look down on him for writing horror.
            Some will love him and some will hate him. It is just people’s opinion.
            He makes you adore the characters and small towns and tells an interesting story and when you reach the end of a book it is like losing a friend and that’s good enough for me.
            I have been reading Joe Hill lately too. He is just as good as his dad. And darker.

      • Frodis73

        You, like most that do not read King, have the wrong idea about him. He is not just a horror writer and really does not write about serial killers either with a few exceptions.

    • TheMirrorThetan

      Hey Doc, The passage looks interesting. It has a good rating, although it seems people either loved it or hated it on goodreads.
      They say it has vampires in it, which is my catnip, but other reviewers called them zombies?
      I went and brought it to read next, even though I already have 400 other books on my Kobo to be read. 🙂

    • Frodis73

      Loved it!! Well, the first two as I haven’t read the last book yet Great news they are thinking of doing a series

    • ReallyMGM

      Ect.SciDoc, from your reading I hope this means you are recovering from your surgery and enjoying some great reading. (This really is one of my favorite books/series). My RFA is Tuesday and scared this time for some reason (3rd time). Trying to keep mind off it by reading, knitting, Netflix, random stuff.

  • Observer

    Uh-oh…Mappin or Stourton or someone created a Camelot Castle Hotel FB page, but they apparently don’t check it very often…

    refresh

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      I love you. You send me down the most funny rabbit holes!

      The re-flexion of light inside the Castle, the harp, the chess table, the fabulous and artistically paintings around the Salon that gave us the impression to see Claude Monet with his Impressionism paintings. I then found out that was not Monet thanks to the Camelot News Paper.

      Magical portal.

      Deep joy 😀

      F5

      • Todd Tomorrow

        “Thanks for letting us see the salon” why how gracious. I wonder where they have the big pic of El Loon hanging. Most likely in his office which awaits his return. You know like Christ or some shit!

      • TheMirrorThetan

        If that feckin idiot can’t tell the difference between Monet and Glittered Butterfly Trashy Crap then Iam not trusting his word on the greatness of Camelot.

        • Frodis73

          LMAO! IKR???

    • MarcabExpat

      *squeals with glee*

    • Mockingbird

      Nice. Defiled no less.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Spits coffee, misssed computer. Ah hahahaha!

    • Kestrel

      They probably forgot their password. You’d think being OT would fix that.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    “I fear that at some point in the future, a refined version of Scientology might be extremely dangerous. ,,,”

    Ahh, but no worries there.

    There won’t be any “OT” Caspar the Ghost Scientologists being produced by the freezoners of themselves in any future cabal of them.

    They have the impossible task of making “OTs” out of themselves, and no one has yet.

    Mini subunits who sell Scientology “Hope Soap”

    But, “No OTs” from any of the sub-soap vendors in the freezone ever either.

    Freezoners fail the test, “Can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”

    Hubbard’s Scientology word play can only sell dupes what dupes believe/hope, and beliefs take up their time and money but no “OT” Caspar the OT Ghost doing good deeds ever.

  • BuberZionist

    “Talk therapy” by mental health professionals doesn’t work either, yet it is still around, and without heavy ethics. In an ideal world Scientology would cost no more than talk therapy, and it would be no more harmful.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Where is your evidence that talk therapy doesn’t work? I disagree entirely with your comment.

      • Kim O’Brien

        no one talks to them …ergo ..talk therapy does not work 😉

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Worked for me.

        • Graham

          Worked for me.

      • BuberZionist

        http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/health/study-finds-psychotherapys-effectiveness-for-depression-overstated.html?_r=0

        My experience is that talk therapy is neither helpful nor harmful. The patient might experience some benefits if he believes in talk therapy. That’s true for entry-level auditing too.

        • scottmercer

          I understand that anecdotes are not evidence, but it worked for me as well. But then, I did want it to work.

        • Graham

          The article that you cite as evidence states that: “Treatments like cognitive behavior therapy and interpersonal therapy are indeed effective, the analysis found”.

          • BuberZionist

            The article states: “Most people find some relief by simply consulting a doctor regularly about the problem, experts said. Engaging in a course of well-tested psychotherapy, according to the new analysis, gives them an added 20 percent chance of achieving an even more satisfying improvement, or lasting recovery.”

            OK. If talk therapy provides any benefit at all, it provides a benefit 20% of the time. The other 80% you wasted your time and money. Perhaps I was part of the 80% and you were part of the 20%. Good for you.

            I bet that David Mayo’s Advanced Ability Center could’ve matched talk therapy’s 20% chance of providing a benefit. Perhaps Division 6 auditing could match it even today.

            20% chance of improvement after more than a century of talk therapy is pretty pathetic. I would argue that Scientology initially grew because it was an alternative to conventional talk therapy, which many people knew didn’t work. The problem was that Scientology didn’t work either.

    • Mockingbird

      Scientology has thousands of lies in it and hundreds of attempts by Hubbard to repackage hypnosis and other forms of persuasion hidden in it. A reduction in price or removing heavy ethics won’t fix it.

    • gtsix

      Ideal worlds are lovely to think could exist… yet they don’t. Fantasy simply isnt real. So we just have this unideal world to work with. Good luck!

    • Len Zinberg

      In an ideal world, Scientology would carry a legal warning and disclaimer.
      Just like Kools do.

  • Vaquera

    Brazil!

  • Todd Tomorrow

    “I’ve seen victims of the Purification Rundown and am aware of a number
    of deaths associated with it. The first two were on the very first Purif
    at Saint Hill. I also knew an intelligent and articulate martial arts
    black belt who came back in a wheelchair, barely able to articulate a
    thought.” I’m not sure I get the connection. Was the guy helped by being dry boiled? I bet they just got a hold of his check book, eh? Maybe it’s just my lack of charge today.

  • gtsix

    Totally OT: Brasil beats Germany 5-4 on pks for gold in the men’s soccer Olympics. Congrats Brasil!

  • Mockingbird

    The subject of banning Scientology is interesting. I see no way a combination of lies and covert harmful methods of manipulating people can be reformed myself. If you has to remove every false statement or harmful practice from Scientology what would be left ? None of the auditing, none of the study technology which is cognitive restructuring, none of the loaded language, none of the ethics, none of the management techniques, none of the promises.

    What’s left after all that ?

    I think it cannot be reformed or moderated into something beneficial or at least not harmful. It’s like slavery or child prostitution – it needs to be abolished and outlawed in my opinion. The language of how it is outlawed could forbid practices that have been found harmful, like with the Anderson Report or other examinations, or fraudulent.

    I think everything in Scientology meets that standard.

    • jazzlover

      Removing the tax exemption, and thus the ability of the richie-riches to take tax deductions, effectively bans scientology without banning it.

      • Mockingbird

        Removing all religious protection opens Scientology up to a lot of lawsuits and criminal charges.

        • jazzlover

          Right, but the game would basically be over once the 501(c)(3) is lifted. All the rest would be like waiting for the “fat lady” to sing.

          • Mockingbird

            I hope to live to see the protection lifted and the whole house of cards collapse.

            • jazzlover

              I have faith. They will eventually make a mistake they can’t come back from.

            • Mockingbird

              I lack faith. It’s burned me far too much. I hope you are right but think I have to work towards the objectives I have and also have circumstances beyond my control cooperate.

            • jazzlover

              LOL. Well, there’s both an upside AND a downside to faith. Most things are out of our control. If we’re gonna believe that we live in the best country in the world, at some point, it has to act accordingly. If it never does, then we have much bigger problems than an out of control cult.

            • Mockingbird

              Best is in my opinion an oversimplification. The US has the highest incarceration rate by far. It is the number one arms manufacturer and exporter. It has very high income inequality and child poverty. Recently it ranked in the high twenties in education.

              It has a lot of very poor world rankings including freedom of the press. Now we don’t see images of Iraq and Afghanistan every day because our press is heavily censored. We don’t see the dozens of countries our military affects.

              The TV news is all pro neoliberal policies and just stays in a very limited band of debate but has fierce conflict within that band.

              We honestly have bigger problems than Scientology. Our perpetual war economy relies on tremendous fossil fuel reserves to operate. It has no signs of stopping.

              If it continues we will exhaust the fossil fuels completely.

              Some experts report that we absolutely need to leave at least eighty percent of the oil and coal in the earth and immediately switch to cleaner energy like solar.

              They report catastrophic climate change is very, very likely if we use the oil and coal. If we stick to the wars we will possibly exterminate ourselves.

              It’s simple, stick to war equals stick to oil equals catastrophic climate change. Scientology is not even on the radar compared to that.

            • jazzlover

              Agreed on all of that. I was being somewhat facetious. At this point, I doubt that there are many people (other than the crazy ‘nationalists’ that Trump is trying to whip into a frenzy for his own good) who still believe what we are being told about our supposed greatness. It’s just that many of us are now pissed that we are being taken for a bunch of idiots.

  • Stand back! It’s Kitchen Science!
    ..

    • What’s in it?

      • A cup of cooked chicken.
        2 cups of onion, celery, sugar snap peas, carrots, mushrooms, red peppers.
        Some rose sauce.
        Mix.

        Line each French onion soup bowl with half of a Pillsbury Grands 4 croissant tube, fill with the mix, then fold the dough over-top. Pop in the oven for 22 minutes at 375F.

        • Kestrel

          Looks and sounds delicious.

        • Holy Mother of God. Sounds amazing.

        • MarcabExpat

          I think I actually need to make this. But what is rose sauce?

        • aquaclara

          Omg. This sounds delish. I have the croissant thing down – the chicken and veg. Niew, Rose sauce. How much and what is this? Totally making this.

          You are a man of many talents. Maybe I told you this before.
          But now we are in cooking. This looks so fabulous.

          • Rosé sauce. You can find a jar in the pasta section. An alfredo would work too, with chicken. Or use the basic idea with a beef stew or chilli. (Just cook all the ingredients that need to be cooked first. The sugar snap peas were still crunchy, so it doesn’t get too hot in there.)

            • aquaclara

              Ok. I owe you a yummy recipe in return. Boy, this Bunker has something going on every day.
              And you are quite the multi talented Bunkerite.

              Looking forward to this. Thanks!

            • noseinabk

              I’ve used those croissant rolls for making a quick apple croissant dessert and for a chicken broccoli brade ( old pampered chef recipe) but this a great idea to make mini pot pies. We make unbaked pies to freeze with thanksgiving leftovers and pie dough. Making individual ones like this would be even better since we could make a few for dinner and toss the rest in the freezer.

    • Baby

      RM .. You are quite the cook.. camping and biking and cooking and etc..You have such a full life..

      • aquaclara

        He has been holding out on us on this stuff. Holy wow.

        • Baby

          He certainly is aqua.. xo

    • MaxSpaceman

      those all look like Canadian cooking and kitchen items

  • I have to make this comment – “666 Comments The Underground Bunker”

    Saw this on reddit – “Fundamentals of Thought is a complication book put together by John Sanborn, Hubbard’s editor.” – Is that so?

  • I love this food blog.

    • noseinabk

      Me too! I need to can a huge batch of salsa tomorrow and will post pics!
      (just kidding, I promise not to do that.)

  • MESHUGGAH – Break Those Bones Whose Sinews Gave It Motion
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9LpMZuBEMk

  • mikecrosby

    I shudder when I look back at the 70s, a young man, in a strange town, knowing no one, and a Scientology pamphlet in my hand. I’m thankful I didn’t take that step for the free whatever.

    I easily could have gotten caught up in this mess and it would have destroyed my life. As hard as it is for those who’ve escaped CoS, I congratulate you in your courage.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    Some clams are now claiming that Hillary Clinton is on psychiatric drugs and that she and her psychiatrists are somehow tied into Hitler’s eugenics program. This guy claims to have researched this he but keeps referring to diazepam as “diazepeen”. It appears that those CO$ communication classes have failed again because this clam is all over the place and can’t make a coherent point. Thank you LRH! SMH

    https://youtu.be/nqjoAtih9FQ

    • People are suicidal and now they want to kill you? he he

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        And who doesn’t want a President who can “urinate involuntarily”? Sheesh. What an idiot!

        • How do you know he is a scientologist? I can see the Cardone influence, like filming while driving and being a smart ass

          • Intergalactic Walrus

            He’s a clam. I’ve been following him for a couple of years. He used to post almost nothing but CO$ crap before he got on this Trump kick. He has claimed that he sold more CO$ books in his area than anyone else, a real star at disseminating LRH’s tech. GAG

          • MarcabExpat

            Who else cites a full LRH ref? Alex Jones and David Icke make up their own stuff.

    • MarcabExpat

      Scientology is a hell of a drug.

      Honestly, I’m amazed it took as long as it has for this movement to become entangled in politics. What with the authoritarianism, the conspiracy-theorizing, and the liturgically-sanctioned narcissistic greed, you’d think that would have been a feature from day one.

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        Some clams’ Facebook pages are filled with such hatred regarding the election. The tech doesn’t seem to lead one into a good place based on what I’ve been reading. Here is just a sample of one clam going off…
        (refresh)

        • scottmercer

          What will happen when Clinton wins? Will they attack? Freak out? What?

          • jazzlover

            Everybody be king fu fightin’.

          • aquaclara

            If you look around, the Clinton people are equally freaky and panicked that she might — gghhha — blow up before the election.

            Well, she might.

            Or not.

          • ReallyMGM

            Maybe they will move to an island somewhere.

        • jazzlover

          Seems Mr. Byrnes is a tad excited. I’d recommend some diazepeen(is) if he weren’t so anxious to throw around the word “cult” while he’s in one himself.

        • MarcabExpat

          Holy crap. It’s eerie how well Hubbard’s cold-war era paranoia meshes with today’s chemtrail-style lunacy. And he only has to plug “psychiatry” into the Big Pharma template — the whole thing is seamless.

        • madame duran

          Larry Byrnes. That name (or rather, his avatar) looked familiar to me. Checked out my online Scientology file and found this:
          The man is a certifiable LOON.

          • MarcabExpat

            DAYUM.

      • FredEX2

        Oh Marcab, I can assure you they not only follow politics but are heavily involved in that arena. They’ve perfected ‘gladhanding’ and know how to play the games all too well, as they’ve been playing it for a very long time. Politics isn’t new to Scientology…from day one.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        Well, the cherch’s failure to get involved in politics till now wasn’t for lack of trying. Like every good megalomaniac racist, Elron had his sights set on taking over a couple African nations back in the glory days when he still had a navy 😉

      • 9001

        They did have the late Congressman Sonny Bono and have some other friends in Washington.
        http://www.salon.com/2011/02/10/scientology_friends_dc/

    • JJ

      Two words man: “Lumbar Support.” Rachel Maddow owed Trump’s new “campaign manager” last night. Not even pretending not to be in bed with white supremacists mow.

    • scottmercer

      Mind. Altering. Drugs. Yes. That is the point of them. But I guess light hypnotising over a period of years doesn’t do anything to your mind. Okay then.

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        But I sure am glad that I saw this video because up until now, I thought that Valium was just like neosporin 😉

    • aquaclara

      That would totally explain why she doesn’t remember lying about, well, pretty much everything. Perfect alibi. Onto the White House.

    • TheMirrorThetan

      He is a genius for telling us that mind altering drugs alter the mind. Who woulda thunk it?
      Diaza-peen?

    • Harpoona Frittata

      I’m not a violent person, but by about 1:40 into this clown’s disjointed rant I would have backhanded him hard if I was the lil wife, and then did it again and again until he finally STFU…maybe whacked him a few times with the $cn book, then threw it out the window too for good measure 😉

    • Graham

      “This guy claims to have researched this.” He’s presumably used LRH pulled-out-of-his-ass type research, not your stinking Wog research with all that hard stuff like coming up with actual evidence.

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        Every clam claims they have researched the psychiatric industry. Remember Tom Cruise’s interview where he claimed he researched it and was was an expert? Deluded clams read CCHR bunk and call it research.

  • Jimmy3

    I’m at an airport and they don’t believe me because I have emoticons in my passport
    Il get this sorted out and chats you soon
    http://youtu.be/0XcN12uVHeQ

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    Black Rob earlier posted some of this guy’s Facebook posts about the side effects of his having stopped taking his “psych drugs”. He posted this a few days ago. BTW – He was in a car accident 9 years ago which killed his grandmother and left him with a disability (arm) & depression. The clams are trying to talk him into joining staff. Poor bastard.
    (refresh)

    • madame duran

      This is beyond sad. What Scientology does to vulnerable people is criminal. Dropping out of college, getting off prescribed meds for clinical depression, not communicating for weeks/months with family or friends outside of the cult regarding major life changes (and finally doing it only through Facebook? How impersonal)…these are all drastic changes that would concern anyone with half a brain cell, let alone qualified health professionals.

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        With that car wreck that left him with a disabled arm and killed his grandma, he thinks auditing/$scientology will put him right. Works security at a club, a job that he hates. Ripe pickens for the CO$. Very sad indeed.

    • Frodis73

      Gag me. Absolutely amazing that Dianetics still has pull with some people…wtf?? This is so sad and frustrating

    • I guess Tom Cruise was at his car accident 9 years ago.

  • aquaclara

    Just want to say that I love getting that anonymous phone call from the person who found my son’s phone at a concert I didn’t know he was even attending. Now, he is 22. As parents, we know we are only getting a tiny bit of any story. But still.

    I probably like it a little more that I get to make the ultimate “mom” call to tell the friends he is with that WE know where his phone is, even if he doesn’t. And that it was actually found at the concert. And that he can’t get it back til tomorrow night. Imagine that.

    Hee, hee, hee. Ok. If you have 22 year olds, you will laugh with me. If yours aren’t there yet, just remember that I told you so. “Sightseeing with friends” is really concert-going with more friends and at more bars than they ever mentioned. While some of us think a certain someone should be job-hunting.

    🙂

    Parents rock.

    • aquaclara

      Did I say that this is totally OT? Sorry.

      • noseinabk

        Funny that they think we are so old that we have no idea how real life is in your twenties. My daughters friends still make fun of her sweating over getting a text from me that was only a question mark. She knew well that it meant ” answer me soon or I will blow up your phone with real questions.”

        • aquaclara

          Lol! We had a little “discussion” yesterday about when exactly he was going to focus on his job-hunt. I got a complete song and dance about the last time he would see his friends, had to go to the beach, working so hard this summer, why would I think that a day of sightseeing would be so bad, blah blah blah blah.

          Can you tell I’m gloating? I should add that we covered 13 years of private school, plus four years of college plus an out-of-town internship (aka a free job we paid for in tuition and living expenses).

          Parental gloating is so fun. Wish we got to do it a bit more often.

          • noseinabk

            For a few years some kids act as if they know it all only to come back and say that you knew what you were talking about the entire time. My kid decided about 3 1/2 years in that she didn’t want to be a teacher and gave it up.
            (Deleted super secret info) 😛
            She does intend to go back to school though for what I do not know.

            • aquaclara

              Yours would be smart to get her teaching cert. the bartender money is good for a bit. Then the 20s run out, and it’s a bit tougher. 30s, a bit more.

              They don’t listen though, do they? It has to be killing my son that I know where his cell phone is this evening. Instead of being appreciative….well, you know.

            • noseinabk

              Yep. I tried to tell her how hard it would be to go back after marriage and a kid.
              * shrugs* I will be here to help out if she does it but, I will say “I told you so.” ☺

            • aquaclara

              You get to gloat and tap dance only after I TYS 3. (I told you so the 3rd time).

  • Mockingbird

    I found an article on narcissists that fits Ron Hubbard quite well and can be laid next to the key references on Hubbard himself. PDC tape 39 the Games maker, the affirmations, and the Skipper letter.

    It’s very much a psychological guide to Hubbard that agrees with his affirmations, the PDC tape and the Skipper letter. They are quite similar.

    Here’s a small excerpt from the article:

    Excellent description of Ron Hubbard:

    The narcissistic abuser’s grandiose fantasy of him or herself is the source of all the pain and suffering that the narcissist inflicts on others. It is the “reflection in the mirror”. It is the ego that the narcissist has created and that he or she must defend at all costs to avoid identifying with his or her true self.

    It is therefore imperative to question what is the narcissist’s fantasy of him or herself that he or she is so desperate to protect.

    It may be higher level of intelligence, wealth, health, beauty, morality, righteousness, leadership within the community, culture or religion. It may be the better ability to father, to mother or to educate others. The fantasy can incorporate a number of different areas.

    Within the chess board, the King is the narcissist’s grandiose fantasy which the other pieces lay their lives down to defend, often unaware of what they are actually defending.

    Note that there can only be one King on the chess board. This is as the nature of the grandiose fantasy means that the Narcissist must be the expert in that field compared to all other pieces on the board. Any-one who comes close to the Narcissist in terms of their chosen area of expertise will, if possible, be devalued, rejected and as a last consequence, thrown off the chess board. The other option would be to take credit for the achievements and skills of others, for example, stating that it was only due to the Narcissist’s teachings that the other has become successful.

    Step 2: Identify the Ideology

    The core central aim of the narcissist is to keep his or her grandiose fantasy alive. The King on the chess board must survive and the other pieces are there to defend the King’s ego.

    But how is the narcissist going to get other people to shield and protect the King’s ego, whilst the narcissist is abusive to those very same people?

    One method, as discussed in my previous post, is through psychological manipulation to diminish the person’s self esteem and convert them into the “other”, so that they can only see the world through the eyes of the abuser.

    The other method used is in terms of the imposition of an ideology.

    The ideology is what the narcissist expresses other’s should do to try and better themselves so that they can try to achieve the grandiose skills or achievements that he or she has.

    The ideology is what the narcissist will use to defend morally why the abuse that he or she inflicts was acceptable and appropriate.

    The imposition of ideology becomes the mask of abuse.

    From:

    https://whateveryousaydarling.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/unraveling-the-chess-board-mind-of-the-narcissistic-abuser/

  • noseinabk

    When I check the Bunker in the morning and see that it is Jon Atack I know I need to wait for more coffee and time to dig in. I had limited time to see the comments today and much appriciate the thoughtful comments and responses from Jon to help me wrap my mind around the topic. Thanks to all who take the time to explain and explore the depths of this screwed up organization .
    Yours from the shallow end of Cos watching,
    Noseinbk

    • noseinabk

      And, Thanks for the pity upvotes Daisy!
      Gnite.

      • daisy

        They aren’t pity votes , I don’t up vote everything. I enjoy your posts, honestly. Have a good sleep.

  • Vaquera
    • Kay

      I adore Chris Stapleton…truly. Great voice, great musician. Reminds me a little of David Clayton Thomas sometimes. (one of my fave singers of all time)

  • Almost twenty years ago, posing with poison:

    POLITICAL NOTEBOOK: Dole’s No-Pose With Scientology, Too Much Sun August 27, 1996, Sandra Sobieraj, Associated Press

    • Graham

      Toxic cult is toxic.

    • FredEX2

      RMycroft…you find the most interesting things!

  • Dave Reams

    Santa Cruz Sentinel: Holy City: What will become of site bought by billionaire Scientologist Bob Duggan? http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw24Gmmi0

    (Also appeared in the San Jose paper)

  • Kay

    Hey….goin’ to Denver tomorrow for a couple of days…I know that’s about ten or more months in advance of HowdyCon but hey do I get a prize for getting there early?

    • Baby

      I will buy you a beer when we meet next year Kay.. how about that?

  • Baby

    O/T This is funny.. night all.. yawwwwwwwwwwn….. be safe in here.. love you baby

    http://nypost.com/2016/08/15/this-mans-obituary-might-be-the-funniest-thing-you-read-all-day/

  • 9001

    O/T. Some good news on a cult called Tvind/Teachers Group.
    After an investigation by Reveal and the BBC, Unicef and the UK government have cut off funding to one of their dodgy charity front groups Dapp Malawi.

    https://www.revealnews.org/article/us-taxpayers-are-financing-alleged-cult-through-african-aid-charities/
    https://www.revealnews.org/article/unicef-cuts-off-funding-to-nonprofit-linked-to-alleged-cult/
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36940384

  • Lighthouse

    Another great post, Jon Atack.

    I do predict that the Indie groups won’t last too much longer. They’re not really a safe place to land. They only look that way for a while – while people still find it difficult to let go of the insanity.

    They’ll die off and more pronouncedly once the elder members start dying off. IMO.

    • DexterSka

      Also it seems that a lot of the really crazy exes wind up there. Some of them seem like a place where one can more freely speak of the crazier aspects of the cult.

      • Lighthouse

        I had only one encounter with an Indie group and when I mentioned that I knew about Xenu and body thetans – they were trying to get me to do the OT levels – they said that that was a pity. My answer to that was, “Why? If I’m spending money on anything, haven’t I the right to know what I’m paying for? Or, if I thought it was ludicrous, should I not have the right to know BEFORE I spent my money?” I wondered if they gave refunds?

        Scientology cannot exist without the secrecy and carrot dangling. I give this Centre, they call themselves, a couple of years at most.

        (I was told that if I didn’t do the OT levels, “I would pull in things…”. That did it for me. That was the end!)

        It was too much, like jumping from the fire into the frying pan.

  • David Arum

    The heart of Scientology is nihilistic and committed to the destruction of humanity ,there only other motive is the transitive pleasure of David Miscavage .

  • Peter Meier

    This is a real good examination in the end. Compare OT8 with the Enemy condition.

    I guess you do not know, that it is meant in a higher level of awareness! 🙂

    Otherwise, i have also never seen an OT which was cause over MEST and Thought. I figured out, that 45 % of a list of 120 OTs were blind, had cancer, heavy ill or mostly criminals or went suicide. The rest fighted for her life and money with lies and asocial behaviours. This is quite upstat. Ron made a pact with the devil as in Goethes Faust: he got everything he wished, but sold his soul for this.

    And Miscavige? Better he has a long life and we know what happens, than these guys go into the underground and come later like the communists or stasis. Otherwise: how many dead people are in this UFO – Mountain in South-USA, down in the floors? Is there his wife? Life or death? Or other ones, which are forgotten?

  • Peter Meier

    Dear Mr. Atack, I have a question on the flush on vitamine Niacin: what is this flush in fact?

    The European Commission warns on 20 pages of high doses of B3, as it results in harms of the body. So, does anyone know what this red flushes are? Of course it is a typical Hubbard trick to sell this flushes as a cure of radiation to the stupids, controlled by lies. And doses of 5000 mg are behind of any responsibility as this causes jaundice and more defections on the body.

    • Mooser42001

      “The European Commission warns on 20 pages of high doses of B3,”

      Exactly. And B3 is very expensive. A-100, A-105 or A-143 works just as well, and they are usually less expensive.

  • JJ

    Kind weird point here but had Christianity had to go up against the Internet at it’s opening phases maybe it wouldn’t have done as well either…
    “A flat white man in the sky who grants wishes?” “As long as I do such and such and don’t do this and that?” “U hu…”

    • Mooser42001

      “Kind weird point here but had Christianity had to go up against the
      Internet at it’s opening phases maybe it wouldn’t have done as well
      either…”

      If Christianity had been halted in its early years, the world may well have been arthritic. And worshipped bulls, too.

  • Mooser42001

    “I noted in one of my books that the most valuable thing I got from my
    scientology experience was the ability to disagree. That is, freedom
    from the automatic subconscious acceptance of the way others might want
    me to see or think.”

    Marty Rathbun.