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L. Ron Hubbard’s regressive homophobia: Can Scientology’s celebrities handle the truth?

PreponCrest
 
Yesterday, former Scientology spokesman Mike Rinder posted a statement about Scientology’s homophobia which not only collected founder L. Ron Hubbard’s statements about homosexuality’s “perversion” but also explained, from his personal experience, how Rinder observed the organization’s baked-in hate for gays and lesbians.

It was a remarkable personal essay and we highly recommend that you read it and bookmark it for whenever Scientology’s attitudes about homosexuality come up in future news stories. We’re thinking of a recent attempt by Scientology celebrity Laura Prepon to claim that the situation was otherwise.

We’ve also written about Scientology’s homophobia. One of the more intriguing stories we got to look into while we were at the Village Voice described the struggles of a man named Keith Relkin. In that 2011 piece, we explained that Relkin, who lived in West Hollywood, had taken on the role as the church’s token gay guy, and tried to convince the press that Scientology was actually gay-friendly. Privately, however, he complained to friends that the church undermined him at every turn, had him spy on other people in the film business, and denied him any chance to move up to the courses offered only in Clearwater, Florida because of his orientation.

Also, we got to know the singular Derek Bloch while we were at the Voice. We were struck by what an intelligent young man he was, and what a good writer. But he’d committed the crime of writing anonymously at a web forum about how he’d failed out of Scientology’s “Sea Org” because he was gay. Scientology’s spy wing then figured out who was behind his anonymous online writing, confronted his parents about it, and they then disconnected from him.

As we explained in those stories, and as Rinder explains in even better detail, L. Ron Hubbard classified homosexuals as “1.1” on his “tone scale” of emotion, which equates to “covert hostility.” Auditing in Scientology is supposed to move you higher on that scale, into better emotional states. So, as a consequence, Scientology is a “cure” for homosexuality as gay members are expected to audit their way out of their covert hostility and into a happier, non-gay state. And since Hubbard died in 1986 and his writings are set in stone (or “source”) to Scientologists, the organization can’t change its outdated ideas about gays and lesbians.

Sunny Pereira reminded us that she experienced a telling example of this thinking. We met her in Dallas during our book tour, but she was already well known to us because of her appearance in the 2010 Tampa Bay Times story, “No Kids Allowed.” Pereira was one of three women — the other two were Claire Headley and Laura DeCrescenzo — who came forward about Scientology forcing young women in the Sea Org to have abortions in order to enforce the Sea Org’s “no children” policy.

Today, Pereira is happily married with children. But she told us that she still had the documents describing why she got kicked out of the Sea Org in 2004: “I kissed a girl,” she said.

The documents she gave us refer only to “Out-2D with a staff member.” That’s Scientology’s jargon for “out-ethics” on the “second dynamic,” which is code for illicit sexual activity (but could be anything from flirting to outright sexual intercourse). On page 2, however, there’s a slip when the document refers to Sunny failing to report the staff member and refers to “her.”

 
SPdeclare1SPdeclare2SPdeclare3SPdeclare4

 
And Pereira isn’t the only one who was kicked out of the Sea Org for a same-sex kiss. Nora Crest has talked about how she also ended up getting punished and ultimately left the Sea Org because she had kissed another woman.

We told Nora that we were going to put together this piece, reacting to Rinder’s post, and asked if she wanted to say something about Scientology’s homophobia.

Well, she did a lot more than that. She quickly put together a video, and we were stunned when we saw it. Brace yourself, because this is one for the ages. We think Nora is incredibly brave for making it, and we’ll let you find out what she reveals in it as she talks about how Scientology demonizes and punishes gay people.

Laura Prepon, we dare you to watch it.

 

 
——————–

BOOK NOTES
3D-Unbreakable

We didn’t get a chance to include photos in our book, so we’ve posted them at a dedicated page. Reader Sookie put together a complete index and we’re hosting it here on the website. Copies of the paperback version of ‘The Unbreakable Miss Lovely’ are on sale at Amazon. The Kindle edition is also available, and shipping instantly.

Tony Ortega’s upcoming appearances (and check out the interactive map to our ongoing tour)…

 
Oct 23: Sydney, Giant Dwarf Theatre (with Steve Cannane and Bryan Seymour)

Oct 25: Melbourne, The Wheeler Centre, 3 pm, free but reservations recommended (with Steve Cannane)

Oct 28: Adelaide, Wheatsheaf Hotel, (with Sen. Nick Xenophon)

Oct 30: Perth, Collins Street Centre, Collins St and Shaftesbury St, South Perth, 7 pm

Past dates: Santa Barbara (5/16), Hollywood (5/17), Orange County (5/17), San Diego (5/20), San Francisco (5/22), New York (6/11), Chicago (6/20), Toronto (6/22), Clearwater (6/28), Washington DC (7/12), Hartford (7/14), Denver (7/17), Dallas (7/20), Houston (7/22), San Antonio (7/24), Austin (7/25), Paris (7/29), London (8/4), Boston (8/24), Phoenix (9/15), Cleveland (9/23), Minneapolis (9/24), Portland (9/27), Seattle (9/28), Vancouver BC (9/29)

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on October 11, 2015 at 09:45

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of LA attorney and former church member Vance Woodward

UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Miss Tia
  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X
    Sunday with a smile on my face – off to meet a good friend for brunch.
    But before I go, I’ll flag some lies, just to work up an appetite.

    We take their bait and switch fraudulent ads down. Join us.

    Two ways – Flag them (Red-X) and via a complaint to CL Quick reminder
    RedX tips & Complaints procedure are now included in the google doc under the RedXTips tab.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    Tick Tock, Dave

    We are watching your $cientocalypse from the Autumn woods

    • james hollingsworth

      The apocalypse really is coming. That mission in Orlando closing shows that “Going Clear” is working. No new people in months, and now, people CROSS THE STREET before going by the Mission. Tom Cruise just said “Hollywood people are so plasticky and phony”, ABSOLUTE CAREER SUICIDE! All his Hollywood “friends” are telling him about “Going Clear”! and they ARE plasticky and phony, but don’t like being told so….. Goodbye, Tom. We won’t miss you.

  • Sarcasmo

    Don’t forget Alanna Masterson who plays the gay character Tara on ‘The Walking Dead.’

    • Heidi

      So glad I don’t watch that show anymore…. mainly because with a Masterson on it, I wouldn’t.

      • Sarcasmo

        I stopped watching it because of the weak writing, though I hear its kind of come back a bit.

    • Tony Ortega

      Playing gay characters is not an issue. It’s denying that Scientology is homophobic is the issue, which Laura Prepon did.

      • Sunny

        Scientology was completely fine on Isaac Hayes being on a show that ridiculed other religions, until they did one on Scn, then he was in big ethics trouble and told (by Scn handlers) to get off the show. (but while he was on it, Scnists laughed along with the show, until it was not funny to them)

        • anoni81b4u

          That’s what trey parker said about him .. something to the effect of … he did not have a problem cashing the checks for the shows that made fun of other peoples religions

      • Sarcasmo

        I thought I’d read something here, maybe at M. Rinder’s site, somewhere, that was calling Prepon out for even playing a gay character. I personally don’t care that much and tend to give them a pass because they’re just playing a character. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Sunny

    After 17 years in the Sea Org, plus my entire childhood in the Sea Org (32 years total), that Comm Ev issue was my thank you letter and letter of recommendation all in one!

    • B4you

      That is the worst SP declare i have ever seen. I hope you are happy to be out and “exterior” 🙂

      • Sunny

        It’s full of lies and provable bullshit too.

        • B4you

          There is nothing in it, and even my mother could get an SP declare like that 🙂

        • Sunny, this document, as my mom put it after reading it, actually SHOWS how you couldn’t possibly BE an SP. I mean they are SO dumb that they are declaring you and then proving in the same breath that you couldn’t possibly be suppressive. Of course you aren’t. You are a strong amazing woman and your kids are lucky to have you and to grow and learn from your strength. All the love to you Sunny. You were born in hell and have triumphed over it.

  • Jimmy3

    I’m not gay, but I think some of my boyfriend’s thetans are. Not that there’s anything ron with that.

    • A bird in the chimney

      Perhaps a touch assist is in order.

    • Alice Graves

      Too funny!

  • Ella Raitch

    {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}} Nora

  • A bird in the chimney

    Definitely {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}} Nora. Wow. Speaking your truth is incredibly powerful to see, and it will make an impact. Thank you for braving doing so–and thanks as always to Tony for providing the platform and foundation of awesome reporting.

  • Pardon me, would you have any gay Prepon?

    • chukicita

      I had *just* cleaned my keyboard.

    • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

      That was hysterical!!

  • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

    Nora can hug me anytime. 🙂 Excellent video.

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      Hug line forms behind NOLA. Let’s do this!

      http://img.picturequotes.com/2/24/23431/free-hugs-quote-1.jpg

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      Nora was the brightest human being on my years on the PAC RPF (2000-2003).

      Her voice when she came down the halls, talking loudly, she just was a breath of life.

      The second generation Sea Org kids RPFed who are LBGT, one for one, the greatest, all of them.

  • Alice Graves

    That Laura Prepon is one majestic dude-woman. She is so smart, so talented and seemingly in possession of so much strength and self knowledge. So…..what the hell is she’s doing inside this fucked up cult?

    I can see the pretenders pulling one over on the simpleton Tom Cruise, but Laura Prepon? I just don’t get it.

    • MaxSpaceman

      She is auditing BTs and clusters, getting rid of the druggie BTs, and all that.

    • Sejanus

      She reminds me of Krusty light.

  • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

    Laura Prepon, you can glam it up all the way girl, the misery still shows in your eyes. (F5) Wake Up!!

    • Beth

      I was just thinking how Nora is 10x more attractive. Laura Prepon is getting that hardened cold flat- affect scilon face. It’s ugly.
      Reason # 12, 562,497 to leave scientology: after you leave, you get a little better looking every day 🙂

      • Miss Tia

        yeah, she does look hardened and cold…..nothing ‘natural’ about her face, emotions, etc…..

        • Ella Raitch

          Compare the photos Tony has at the top of the post – or should I say – there is no comparing the photos. Laura’s are approaching shark’s eyes

    • jane456

      She looks kind of mean to me, I wonder if that is what she is going for.

      • Ella Raitch

        Causative?

  • Jimmy3

    Would you please ban the first person who plays Katy Perry? Because you know that’s going to happen.

    • Miss Tia

      co-sign

    • What if I share Katy Perry? Does that count? 😉

      • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

        Do it!!

      • Beth

        I say you are the only one with the fucking rank to play Katy Perry in the bunker today 🙂

      • Sejanus

        Only if I can watch…lol
        come on it had to be said..lol
        😀

      • Jimmy3

        I’m pretty sure you can do whatever you want here. 🙂
        Just listening to your video now. “My nicest Silver Tab jeans and my nicest t-shirt…” made me laugh so much, because that’s exactly what I was going to wear today. Love my Silver Tabs.

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Jimmy, is there something you need to tell us? Are you a lesbian too? It’s ok pal, we’re here for ya.

    • Ella Raitch

      what about k.d.Lang?

      • Miss Tia

        k.d. lang is awesome!!

        • Ella Raitch

          Agreed!

      • Draco

        k.d lang is always good 🙂

    • Phil McKraken

      Agreed. Jill Sobule had a song by the same name. It’ll do instead.

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous
      • Phil McKraken

        More than OK. I’ve been a Jonathan Richman fan since college. Seen him countless times. “I Eat with Gusto, Damn You Bet!”

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          Ha! My favorite little bit of Jonathan Richman trivia is that Billy West–one of my favorite voice actors who did Ren & Stimpy and Futurama, among countless others–once toured with with Richman as his opening act. I don’t know why, but I thought what an odd pairing of ducks that must’ve been.

          Also, Road Runner should be on every driving mix ever.

    • romanesco

      Linda Perry, anyone?
      https://youtu.be/cU8j-xDBwuI

  • chukicita

    Nora, listening to your story. I’m struck by the depth of your strength, and Iistening to you is so easy – like listening to a friend over coffee. To be able to navigate growing up gay without familial support is hard enough – sadly, I have many friends who’ve lived that. But to navigate growing up gay immersed in Scientology? Sweet baby Xenu. I cannot imagine.

    Like you say, you ARE the queen of lesbians!

    Thanks for sharing your story.

  • HillieOnTheBeach

    Couldn’t watch without tearing up myself as of 29:30

    Thank you, Nora.

    • chukicita

      Oh. Oh, wow. I just got there. Damn. Damn, damn, damn!

      This cult needs to go down yesterday.

      • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

        Seriously. My first thought after finishing the vid was: Can we just burn it to the ground now?!

        • Draco

          I feel the same.

  • Brave ex is brave.

  • Sejanus

    Nora you had me at the Lego X-Wing!
    Excellent video though.

    • anoni81b4u

      That is not a Lego x wing … that is a real (toy) one !
      I grew up in the 80s .. I am an expert on this subject!

      • Actually both the At At and the X Wing are Lego. But still SUPER cool. They are my husbands. He’s super cool too!
        As I like to say we are NERDTASTIC!

        • anoni81b4u

          I stand corrected and hold my head down in shame !
          it looks like the old ones .. the x wing .. not the other one

  • cdubb

    They’re totally stuck with the anti-gay and gay-cure label on this one. Like Tony said, “It’s baked in.” The context in which gays are declared perverted is Hubbard’s Tone Scale which is an integral part of Scientology. It can’t be changed. It’s not like editing out a few commas or a stray racial remark (which I’ve seen done). The Tone Scale is Scientology as much as staring and past lives. That’s why I found Rinder’s description of current attempts to gloss over the anti-gay part so funny: Back in the 1950s, gays had to be covert about their orientation and this made them hostile. Well maybe I added some more spin to it, but you get the idea. This is like pulling a rug over a hole in the floor. Any gay signing up for Scientology courses will discover sooner rather than later that the entire organization from top to bottom and across all levels is 100% anti-gay. Like I say, they are stuck with it. And in Hollywood this is a total non-starter today.

    • B4you

      They are caught in there own trap. There will be Barbeque!

  • Pepsicat

    Wow, what a heartfelt video. Thanks for posting Nora. My apologies if you don’t like country music, but this song is for you… 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ8xqyoZXCc

    • Royce Harlow

      Though not a country fan, I thouroughly enjoyed that 🙂

    • LOVE country and Kacey and this song are one of my favorites! Thank you!

    • Always Amazed

      Thanks Pepsi , that was great! A great earworm for the day!

  • Ben Franklin

    Michael Pattinson discusses what he discovered about the cults attitudes towards homosexuals from with in Scientology.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3zcGqt8nGo

  • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

    I am NOT crying!! *sniff*

    You continue to rock the world Nora. Don’t ever stop being your wonderful self. Thank you so much Tony & Nora for this story/video. The Co$ already hides behind the flag of our country, they shouldn’t get to hide behind the Pride flag too.

    Sending you and your family much ❤❤❤ Nora. (((((hugs)))))

    Off to rejoin the Cult of the NFL. Have a great Sunday Bunker. xoxox

    • Frodis73

      they shouldn’t get to hide behind the Pride flag too.

      ^^^This!! Fuckers!

      • Mark Foster

        Frodie: subtle and subdued-not! Big Hug 🙂

        • Frodis73

          Lol, and right back at you!!

  • Thank you Tony for posting this video. This was a rough for me to say the least. This is a more than a peek behind the curtains into my mind. I have ripped the curtains off and revealed myself. This is still a very tender subject for me. It has been 13 years now since I left, Next month. That is a long time but I am still healing. This video is a part of that process. Thank you for watching.

    • seriouslyWTF

      Respect

    • ze moo

      Thank you Nora for your testimony. Without such stories, we wouldn’t know about the clampire and their real attitudes and actions.

    • anoni81b4u

      Thank you for sharing that.

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      I’m not a cryer, but you just put some serious water in my eyes. Damn girl. You are not broken. You are beautiful, inside and out. Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Keep on raging!

    • Doug Parent

      Your strength will no doubt be a source of inspiration for others. So glad you made it out of that insane little world of theirs and that you are speaking out. Cheers.

    • Ella Raitch

      Nora, when you first posted some of this on your blog I (and others I’m sure) tweeted this around to people including Laura Prepon and Rosie O’Donnell, and I’ve had a bit of to and fro with OITNB Prepon fans…have you had any feedback from beyond the Scientology watching community about this?

      • Frodis73

        Her fans sure are an interesting group huh? I had some really nasty tweets from a couple of them. Great question btw.

        • Ella Raitch

          I just read your post above – yeah, rabid describes it pretty well. Won’t listen to a single negative thing about Prepon.

          • Frodis73

            Lol, they act very much like scientologists actually.

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          When Prepon’s Celebrity mag interview came out (ahem), Ebner antagonized the hell out of some of her followers on Twitter. It was a joy to watch unfold.

        • Escape Artist

          Speaking as a member of the lesbian community, I can say that this kind of fangirling has become almost a blood sport in some quarters. I don’t know if it is just the non-straight side of the Bieber Fever type phenomena of that certain age of female fans or if it because there is so little good representation for non-straight relationships that people become..well, lets just say devotional. It has been very frustrating to me. An organization like Scientology is terrible for the gay community particularly because it veils its homophobia.

    • Sunny

      Hi Nora, I have started to watch the video (18 minutes in). So unbelievably sad!
      I am curious when did this happen with Austin? Because from the second you stepped foot into CC Int (in 95 or 96) at least until I got shipped out in late 98, the CO Dave Petit screamed at you every other day about you being a lesbian. Did all that happen before this relationship?

      • Thanks for the back up Sunny. Yeah it was daily occurrence leading up to Austin. Austin and I were together for about a year and a half. Part of that she was away at officer training on the ship but it picked back up again once she got back. I think Dave was taking out his own closetedness on me.

        • Sunny

          Yes, he was effeminate.

          • Enturbulated Masterbator

            Word!!

          • DexterSka

            A lot of effeminate guys in Scientology. They also seem to nail everything that moves.

        • Nora, thank you so much for sharing the painful details of these traumatic and harmful experiences you went through. Scientology is a destructive culture born of Hubbard’s insistence that his word is fact and can never be questioned. It not only feeds the prejudices that may exist in members but creates intolerance and ignorance in otherwise good people. Especially in the Sea Org, where behaviors based upon indoctrinated beliefs result in a culture reminiscent of The Lord of the Flies. You know that the church may try to make you out to be a liar on this.
          That is what they will do when the media gets a hold of this. It’s good that Sunny has corroborated the homophobic harassment you endured all those years. The more people speak out, the better. You have helped push this issue to the forefront where it needs to be and your sacrifice is much appreciated.

      • Wait, Deve Petit has the nerve to scream at someone about being gay? He was the gayest looking and sounding person I ever knew in my 27 years in there. Not that I minded that and I always respected what he did at CC. But, sheesh. Just sheesh.

        • Sunny

          Yes, only to Nora. It was weird. But he found and pushed buttons on everyone. That just happened to be the button he pushed on her.
          For some reason I got along well with Dave, but not with the Chief Officer, Rene Duzak. She always called me a murderer (because I was over staff medical… what a ridiculous and impossible post that was!).

          • I only knew about Rene but I heard she was a real piece of work.

    • Jimmy3

      I don’t know you, but I love you.

      • Tree

        Me too!

        • Mary

          Me too.

    • TexasBroad

      I’ve been watching the Toronto Conf and yesterday you made me cry, and then this today…if you’re going to make me love you this much, I’m going to need to get one of those Nora hugs!! You are a brave and honest speaker and your testimony is so powerful. This (((hug))) can do for now.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      It’s worth repeating, this will help a great many people. And among the many beneficiaries, your children top the list!

    • jazzlover

      Thank you for sharing, Nora. You are so brave for doing so. Above all else, I am happy that you are healing, have made it through and are ok.

    • Enturbulated Masterbator

      Nora, you are a beautiful soul. Thank you for opening the curtain.

    • Mary

      Nora, you are a beautiful woman. You made me laugh. You made me cry. You opened up your heart and were willing to bear all and be vulnerable. I am incredibly moved by who you are.
      Also, through your own words and experience with the church of scientology, you revealed something to me of my own experience with it and in it. It was eye-opening to me about me. Thank you.

    • PlanetJ

      Respect and love to you! xoxo

    • joan nieman

      You are awesome Nora.

    • What an amazing husband you have Nora. One of those silent heros. Please tell him I recognize his goodness and unconditional love.

      • I know right? He is the best. I will pass on your kind words!

      • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

        I was thinking that too. What a lovely man.

    • OOkpik

      It is a testament to your strength, courage and inner beauty that you are still loving and loved despite the trauma you have endured.

      Hubby sounds like a real winner. Everyone should have a safe place to fall.

    • JaxNGold

      Nora, when you started to cry, I kinda lost it. What this organization does to people is disgusting. It makes me so very angry. It’s obvious you are a kind and wonderful woman. You didn’t deserve to be treated so horrifically, nor did any of the other victims of the CO$. I’m a never-in, but have been Sci-watching for some time. I read the Bunker every day, as well as Mike’s blog. I have a ton of respect for those of you who speak out against this insidious cult.

      On a positive note, I love your sense of humor. You’re hilarious. Always keep that wonderful attitude you have. I’m so glad you’ve got so much support. Love and hugs.

      Kat

    • krazykamper

      Honestly Nora, I’ve read and watched A LOT of shit about this crazy cult in the last couple of years. But this, this was THE video for me. THIS video was the single most emotional thing I’ve watched. Your honesty and your emotion was truly moving. This video will help people. There can be no doubt of that.

    • MarcabExpat

      We are so grateful to you for sharing it. It’s an honor to witness your renewal, Nora. You are an inspiration to more people than you can possibly know.

    • CommonFolkWog

      It is a privilege to bear witness to you, Nora–to circle our wagons around you when you need it, to march along side you when you don’t, to let our own tears and laughter mingle with yours. You are courage personified.

    • ScreamingTomato

      Well done and well said, Nora—straight from the heart. You’re a living reproof to Scientology.

    • Ann

      Amazing. What a wonderful woman.

    • Ella Raitch

      Just been retweeting you Nora – did you include Rupert Everett or Sir Ian McKellan (lots of names there – not sure if these were included or even have twitter handles xxx)

      • arcinva

        For anyone that tweets (I don’t), here’s my surely incomplete list of well-known LGBTQ folks that you could consider retweeting to.

        Ellen (the most likeable, accessible, and well-known lesbian), Neil Patrick Harris (the most likeable, accessible, and well-known gay man), George Takei, Jesse Tyler Ferguson, Portia di Rossi, Jodie Foster (very private so may not be the best choice), Alan Cumming, Kevin Spacey (though, I’m not sure he’s ever stated so publicly and I respect anyone’s right to a private life), Anderson Cooper (who could really get it going in the news), Jim Parsons, Wentworth Miller, Raven-Symone, Shailene Woodley, Zachary Quinto, Ellen Page, Sarah Paulson, Gillian Anderson, Matt Bomer, Jane Lynch, David Hyde Pierce, Cynthia Nixon, Wanda Sykes, T.R. Knight, Nathan Lane, Sara Gilbert, B.D. Wong, Lance Bass, Sean Hayes, John Barrowman, Cherry Jones, Rupaul, Tim Gunn, Victor Garber, Suze Orman, Sean Maher

    • mimsey borogrove

      Nora – can you get the lighting better? In an earlier video, you were backlit by a window, and the auto exposure rendered you too dark, and this one’s not much better. Perhaps do a test of your lighting, before launching into your discourse.
      Thank, Mimsey

      • sugarplumfairy

        You worry me..

        • mimsey borogrove

          Why? If the video is dark it makes it less accessible. It’s about as hard to improve as falling off a log. She just needs to have more light on her. Look at Chris Shelton’s videos. They are all well exposed. When you have a valuable message to get across, why do it in an underexposed video? It lessens the impact. Mimsey

          • sugarplumfairy

            The video is dark.. In more ways than one.. Maybe that was her intent.. She’s pretty savvy.. I thought it was fine, so maybe you should check your settings..

    • Gene Trujillo

      Thank you for sharing your story in more depth. You got out just a bit after I did. It takes a while to heal, in my experience Scientology comes off in layers and when you think you are done healing there is another layer. Best wishes.

      • Jenny Daniels

        I’ve been out for 40 years and I just keep on peeling. On the upside, the layers are infinitely fewer and thinner than they were!
        Keep on peeling, Bunkeroos!

    • thetastic

      Nora, I have watched countless videos and listened to countless podcasts since falling into the rabbit hole 3 years ago, and nothing has affected me like this. Thank you for opening yourself up to us. You are unspeakably brave.

    • DexterSka

      I’m glad you came forward and told this story. I was actually surprised how prudish Scientology is about sex while in the Sea Org. The public members hardly obey any rules on the subject, but Scientology works on a system of keeping up appearances. In the rules about 2D, he says it’s because they’re a church and can’t have prior think otherwise. He is a real slime. I figured a new age religion wouldn’t concern itself with old rules but L Ron never passed up a chance to tell you how to live your life.

    • Peter

      Guts to the max.

    • Lighthouse

      Nora, you ARE very brave and I’m so sorry that you’ve had to go through this and deny who you are for such a good part of your life. 13 years is a LONG time and I hope your healing hurries up because you’ve confronted what is true and it’s in the open.

      I simply hate to use scn terms, I never do now but the only way I can say this is, “You were
      given a wrong item of such magnitude that it is unbelievable.” I’m glad you can start now to undue this harm been done to you. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have lots of people reaching out to you for help and support.

      Hubbard was evil, Miscavige is evil and the church is an extension of the two. Hubbard was worse than evil! He made other people evil, too.

      We’re all so lucky to have gotten shot of this lot and are out, making our own decisions, doing what suits us, getting a good night’s sleep, eating good food and having fun, for godsake – having fun! Who would have thought that life could be so good? Certainly not if you’re a scientologist!

      Go well Nora, best wishes for your life going forward. And stay in touch.

      • Lighthouse

        My time in the church was not nearly as bad as yours, Nora. Yet, I have understanding for what you’ve said. I, too, didn’t feel good about myself while I was in the church or as a scientologist. It took a while for me to leave blame out of the equations in my life. Shit happens – this is my take on things now. Shit happens. It’s a great remedy.

    • Elendira

      Much respect for you to share you personal story with us and the internet. I am sorry that you had to deal with so much sadness in your life.
      On a side note: I seriously want that Lego AT-AT now.

    • Lighthouse

      Hubbard was a bastard. He was a cruel and evil bastard. May he rest in hell!

    • skiesareblue

      Nora, I will say it again … You have the GIFT. There may be others who will deliver the same message, but your raw honesty, courage and grit will always be hard to beat. We cry right along with you, because you have the guts to open yourself wide open in a way no one has ever seen before. I had the honour of being in the audience in Toronto and experiencing your groundbreaking talk, and the emotions running through the audience were palpable. Thank you for everything you do. You are a real hero. xo

      • Ok Skies. You are so sweet to me. Thank you. Xoxo

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Nora, I just had a chance to watch this video. Thank you for your courage, your honesty, your beauty. Blessings to you and your wonderful husband and to your kids. I am so glad that you are free.

    • Taylor

      I was moved deeply by your story. I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been for you to share. Thank you. You’re doing a great thing by sharing. It may save a life. Literally.

    • smew

      I am so glad that they could not break your irrepressible spirit. This was deeply touching and LOL funny at the same time. Your humor, openness, and insight are amazing. I think this video should be seen not just by Sci-watchers but anyone looking to explore topics like oppression, self-discovery, and coming out; Thank you for doing this – you are an inspiration – and thank you Tony for sharing it on the Bunker.

  • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

    I’ve not seen anything quite that compelling. It will help an untold number of people, and not just those who have been abused by Scientology, but also those who have been abused by other bad religions.
    Nora, you are an amazing person. And I bet an even more amazing mother.

  • Frodis73

    Nora, what an amazing and moving video. You rock. I share your anger at Laura P and I really hope her and her rabid fangirls (I have gotten into it with them on Twitter about sci and homophobia-they are NASTY) watch this and really listen to what you are saying. I’m very disappointed that she was even hired esp considering the creator of OITNB and Weeds is very pro-gay in life and in her writing. Thank you again for sharing so much of yourself with of us to help us understand the reality. You are my hero and I hope to meet you someday.
    PS-Love your Lego X-Wing and AT-AT on the shelf behind you!

  • L. Wrong Hubturd

    Nora, you sweet, sweet thing. You are the exact opposite of a terrible person. You are kind and giving and seem so wonderfully genuine. Please be good to yourself. My mother made the mistake of taking care of everyone else and putting others feelings ahead of her own……really, to the exclusion of her own. She was miserable when she died. Treat your self right girl. When you feel good, you’ll be able to be there for the others in your life even better.

    Thank you for your video. I’m sure it will help many many people out there lurking and in fear.

    Tony, can tomorrow be a tear free day, please? Got anything silly you could slide under the cell door for us?

    • Missionary Kid

      You left out something about Nora. She’s funny as hell in person as well as kind.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Yes, she’s very funny in the videos with her sideways glances and little quips. I’m sure, in person she’s a hoot.

        • Missionary Kid

          I didn’t recognize her in person (I’m somewhat face blind), and I walked into a room that she had everyone laughing. It finally dawned on me who she was.

          Her intelligence and caring shine through. Her husband is a lucky man.

      • Always Amazed

        Nora is funny as hell in the video. I feel like she could bemy best friend, I a betting that is often the feeling of those listening to hear. A Sweetheart!!

    • Miss Tia

      yeah, we need a ‘light’ news day if possible….but i know news doesn’t bend to our emotional whims…..

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I know. It was asked mostly in jest, but damn, it’s been a roller coaster lately.

        • Miss Tia

          very much a roller coaster!

  • Jeb Burton

    Just another reason to hate these bigoted mother fuckers. And if anyone fits the stereotype of the closeted gay, its little Davy dressing up like an admiral.

  • Supper Powers

    Nora, your cup runneth over. You have the insight to know you’re OK, the guts to tell the world what happened to you and a family that loves you. Things will continue to be challenging, because that is life, but you have all the important things in place to grow and love. Nice work. Thank you for sharing with us. Glad you made it out. (Yes, I mean that both ways.)

  • 0tessa

    Dear Nora,
    Your video brought the tears in my eyes. I admire your courage to tell your story here. You are everything that Scientology is not.You are the total opposite of Scientology.
    Bless you, beautiful woman and mother.

  • Draco

    Nora – that really took courage to put all your raw feelings out there. We are mostly a bunch of strangers to you, hell, for some of us, you don’t even know our real names, and you could be so open and honest about what has happened to you. When we started posting or reading online, we all had our own reasons for disliking scientology and what it did to us. But hearing what other people have lived through – well this just adds to that list. Dislike isn’t strong enough really. Hate is a lot closer.
    Someone close to me suggested recently that I should not read so much and spend so much time on this fucking cult, and she has a point. But I can’t turn my back on evil like this. And evil is the right word for what scientology is. Just like you said Nora, they teach you to screw yourself in the head, while convincing you that it’s the best thing for you. This is how you grow spiritually.
    I cried through most of your video, for you, for me, for all those whose lives have been put on a different, destructive route, for all the wasted years, because we were searching for something good to do with our lives.
    Thank you for letting us into your life like this – I wish you only what is good for you and those you love.
    Lots of love, from one very squishy Dragon. xxx

  • deanblair

    So let me get this right. Sunny is declared to be an SP because she kissed or petted someone. Examples of SPs are Adolph Hitler, Genghis Kahn, Dillinger, Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and other murderers. This just doesn’t make sense to me. Nothing she did was comparable to any of the suppressive acts done by the psychotics that L Ron Hubbard himself gave examples of. I hereby cancel the goldenrod issue put out by the imbeciles in the Committee of Evidence dated on the 24th of February in the year of our Lord 2004 and order them to go back to school and learn what an SP (Psychopath) really is.

    • Sunny

      Ha ha. I wear my SP status with honor. I do not want it revoked.
      (And all those evil out 2D’s they refer to were all flirting and I was not married! So ridiculous).

    • Miss Tia

      you’re trying to apply “sense” to scientology and nary the two shall meet!

    • Chee Chalker

      The only problem with that is the only place one learns about SPs is the Co$…….you wouldn’t want to send anyone back there to ‘learn’ about anything…..

  • Todd Tomorrow

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-npGrM81iBs
    OT, but ran into this yesterday.

    • Draco

      Always liked Harry 🙂

  • Newiga

    Nora < 3

  • Doc. M

    My wife is a psychologist and specifically works with young children. If there is only a hint or whisper of any type of child abuse (doesn’t have to be physical), CPS (Child Protective Services) is there in a heartbeat.

    If I even called in a false complaint, for example, again CPS would be there. Their investigations tend to be very thorough, at least here in California. They must follow up on everything.

    I believe that all counties in the U.S. have this service. The questions to you in the Bunker or to Tony is: Has CPS ever been called in regarding children in the Sea Org?

    I might be wrong, but I don’t think that hiding behind the front of a “Church” offers any kind of immunity. How ha Scientology gotten away with this part?

    Lastly child abuse is very broad and can encompass, children being in unsanitary conditions, being fed non nutritious foods, not being educated properly…as I said almost anything can be construed.

  • Wow Nora, that took some guts.

    Thanks a lot for doing it from a never-in.

    • Evey Hammond

      I’m a never-in, too and I concur. She has such enormous courage. I can’t imagine going through in my life what she’s gone through in hers. Nora, if you’re looking at this, you’re my hero.

      • mikecrosby

        Never in too. One day I’ll get to meet you Nora, and I’m looking forward to a nice hug. Actually your talk went beyond Scientology for me. I tend to be hard on myself and twist myself in those knots you talk about.

        • Mark Foster

          I feel ya, Mike. What she´s addressing here is profound. Be kind to yourself and recognize what´s good in yourself.

  • Roger Yost

    Nora Crest – from a never-in, I think you are a HERO! That is it in a nutshell. If I ever had the pleasure of meeting you, I would automatically give you a hug, and I’m not a hugger!

  • bromo

    That was very powerful, Nora. This crying grandma just wants to hug you right now.

    • Always Amazed

      So does the wanna be gramma.

  • nottrue

    Nora great video……Also coming soon….in 3 days

  • PantalonesDeLaJusticia

    Just wanted to say that Nora’s video had so much emotion, honesty, and reaches out to people in a way that is both thoughtful and with purpose. (I have) So much respect, and am very grateful for her sharing it – I know there will be plenty of others who feel similarly.

  • Alice Graves

    This is without a doubt, the most powerful and moving testimony I’ve ever seen about the damage scientology does to people. I finished watching it ten minutes ago and am still crying. Can’t stop.

  • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

    Congratulations Nora!! You are out. You are finally free <3

    Your video spoke to me on so many levels. I had "gay thoughts" that I squashed and denied. After the "thoughts" wouldn't go away and I started recognizing that I was attracted to the female body, I resigned myself that I was abberated and would just "handle it in session" one day. I totally know what you mean about all the naked female bodies in the shower room! We didn't have the luxury of en-suite bathroom at Stonelands and all of the Sea Org women showered together. The mass of nakedness was crazy!

    Luckily for me, my gay experiences were after I left the Sea Org. I'm so sorry you had to go through yours inside the Sea Org and so sorry you had to experience all the stupid auditing to try and make you straight on the RPF.

    You have shown so much strength in coming out. Being true to yourself after you've denied yourself for so long can only make you happy.

    Lots of love to you <3

    EDIT: And I'm totally in tears. Tears of sorrow for what you went through, of what I went through, tears of anger for what other gay people go through, and tears of happiness that you are out.

    • Supper Powers

      Thanks for sharing this.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Wuuut? You too? With the shower scene? Where’s Jimmy’s air pump?

      • Draco

        Sorry – Jimmy’s using it right now.

      • Supper Powers

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          No Sonic? That’s mean.

          • beauty for ashes

            Haaa ha!

      • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

        Air pump? I don’t get it.

        • Supper Powers

          You may not want to know. He’s banned from having Sonic shakes for saying it.

          • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

            I’m suddenly 9 years old again and the older Cadet boys are talking about things I don’t understand…Awkward :/

            • Jimmy3

              I made a silly joke the other day about my girlfriend being a blow-up doll. That’s why L Wrong mentioned an air pump. That’s all. I do love her, but I’m just not ready to settle down yet. Plus, she requires a lot of maintenance.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Oh goody. Sex jokes on my emotional post to Nora. I feel like someone just puked up on my wedding dress. Thanks a lot L. Wrong. You’re living up to your namesake 😛

            • Jimmy3

              Hah! I’m sure he meant it in good spirit. :p

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Thanks, J3.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              There’s no denying that 🙂

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              We each have our place. 😉 This heavy emotional stuff drains me and I’ve gotta crack a joke or I’ll have high blood pressure all day.

            • Nat-leficent

              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Please give a thought to those that lived these traumas. It’s not always easy to come here and read the triggers that dredge up all things that are painful. It’s even harder to try and articulate into words what we experienced to give credence to those that are speaking out and to try and explain the difficult to those never in. Sometimes cracking a joke to make yourself feel better might make someone else feel worse and think that you are just here to poke fun out of what they experienced.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Point well taken.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Thank you <3

            • Nat-leficent

              Whoa, we try to be sensitive, but humor is an integral part of the comments Mareka. No one is trying to denigrate survivors but each person here has their part to play in the conversation.
              <3 Nat

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              I know. I’m just feeling particularity butt hurt today. Literally cannot stop crying all morning. Need to walk it off.
              <3

            • Nat-leficent

              *hugs*

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              I just made this and ate half of it. I feel a lot better 🙂

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gv86vO9zCw&feature=youtu.be

            • Nat-leficent

              Yes! Looks fantastic *drool*

            • Hugs

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              <3

            • Jimmy3

              That’s a good thing to remember. But no regular commenter comes here to make fun of ex-Scientologists. At least I don’t. And I do have a strong respect for those who went through it and come back to speak about it.

              The way I see it, though, is that if people didn’t come here and tell jokes, this place would be miserable. And there are a LOT of funny people who gather here. But there is always room for both the horror stories and the lulz. This is truly a unique slice of the Internet.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              You’re right. Thank you <3

            • Jimmy3

              Hey, I don’t care how many names you have. You’re still a beautiful person. 🙂

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              LOL Thanks. You are quite lovely yourself 🙂

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              The more I think about it, the more I realize how much you all need the FPRD 2D form. Dirty pervs 😉

            • Jimmy3

              I understand ‘2D’, but what’s FPRD?

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              It’s a particular type of auditing called the False Purpose Rundown. It’s what Scientology makes you do to change the way you think about something. There were many forms but you had to do the Basic form and complete that before going on to the other dynamic forms.

              It was basically Sec Check questions that had added steps to “handling” the overt. You found the “false purpose” that made you commit the act in the first place and then the idea is that you would never do it again.

              Practically every single RPFer did hundreds of hours of FPRD but it wasn’t just for RPRs. I was given mine as a Public in a Class V Org. It was usually given to people who couldn’t be corrected after many tries. Or who kept having the same issues/problems/thoughts etc.

              So essentially it was trying to change how the person basically felt/thought etc about a certain thing or subject.

              Some people wonder why Scientologists or Sea Org members don’t leave. Mainly because they are conditioned (with the help of FPRD) to believe that the legitimate feelings/thoughts they have are wrong and they need to handle them so they can be happy.

            • Jimmy3

              Thanks for the explanation, but that sounds horrible. I’m sorry you went through that. I have read about the False Purpose rundown, but I didn’t recognize it by acronym.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Luckily I only ever did the Basic form. I hate to imagine doing the 2D form.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              It’s me being the 9 year old dork. Sorry.

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Haha! It’s all good 🙂

            • Pepsicat

              You’re not alone….

            • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

              Thank you 🙂

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          I’ll let Jimmy explain.

          “Oh, Jimmy! Put away your girlfriend and explain to this nice lady about the situation.”

          • Jimmy3

            Dammit, L Wrong. I left my iPad open while I ran to the bathroom. You can’t say shit like that here. What if she read it while I was away?

  • Jimmy3

    “Sex is pain”? Let me take a guess at how he came up with that:

    Woman: Not tonight. It’s painful.
    L. Ron Hubbard: I know. It’s so good it hurts. Sex is pain.
    Woman: …No. Sex is fine. It’s just painful to be near you, let alone in the same bed with you.

    • PRenaud

      just imagine for 2 seconds how much hospitals would be jammed with sick people who just had sex…

      • Jimmy3

        It only took two seconds for my imagination to imagine that all the nurses at this hospital are Halloween-costumed sexy nurses.

  • myrklix

    Powerful, powerful video by Nora. Definitely worth the time to watch it. Thanks for its inclusion, Tony.

  • Draco

    Don’t forget to click the heart everybody – this story needs to be heard EVERYWHERE!

  • worstcultever

    Nora – BOOM, drop the mic, sister. Incredible.

  • Libertylover

    Nora you are amazing, I love you and what you do! Your video is “one for the ages” as Tony says. This video will speak to countless people
    My daughter is 16 and gay. Her mother and I have never had any issues with homosexuality and always believed that it is natural and not a “choice.” We have gay friends and she has gone to the pride parade since she was a toddler with us every year, so she hasn’t experienced much prejudice from her family growing up.
    I am so proud of her as she now goes to the Q center and helps other kids with parents that are more conservative. I hear almost weekly, from my daughter, about families attempting to suppress and shaming their kids. It makes me so sad but every once in a while there is good news and parents have breakthroughs. Love triumphs and I celebrate those victories with her. She still struggles with trying to understand why some of her friends are subjected to such hatred and fear.
    I’m not trying to present myself as super tolerant or wonderful, it just turned out like that for our family. I’m certainly far from perfect. I am so glad that our society is changing, it’s a wonderful development. If you had told me 5 years ago that same sex marriage would be legal in all 50 states, I wouldn’t have believed it for a second. I try to help her stay calm and not be bitter and angry, but to be patient and effective and to educate and not destroy opponents. She has had a few parents watch the movie “For the Bible Tells Me So” and I think that is a great movie that has influenced and changed a few minds. It’s an eyeopener for some and features Gene Robinson’s story.
    Laura Prepon, what can I say, she is a sad sack. Weeds was one oof my favorite shows and I couldn’t wait to see OITNB. I only made it through one season because I couldn’t stand her. I never knew she was a Scientologist until this year, perhaps she never rang true to me? My daughter loves the show and was a little disappointed when I had her watch your other video where you ask for her to leave the show. I didn’t push it much more than that, as I didn’t want to, but I’m going to share this one with her later today.
    Perhaps everyone should send this to the writer of the show too?
    Anyway thank you for doing this video Nora it is tremendous.
    Oh how things have changed and for that I’m thankful that things are going in the right direction. I’m in my 50’s now but I remember when I was 16 or so and I got into a row with my mum that Liberace was gay. She vehemently denied that he was. We still laugh about that now. Yep the times are a changin!

    • Allie

      You and your wife are great parents, Liberty! It’s so wonderful to hear about all your support for
      your daughter. All the best to her and your family.

    • Frodis73

      “For the Bible Tells Me so” was such a great movie, hard to watch at times but I loved it.
      I was just thinking of writing to the writer of Weeds too-I really would like to hear what she has to say about all this. I’m hoping she doesn’t know, but she’s made digs at sci and even NarConon in her writings, so I kinda doubt that she isn’t aware.
      Lastly, your daughter is so very lucky to have understanding parents. My best friend at 16 was disowned by his own mother when he came out. They eventually reconciled, but we both know that isn’t always the outcome.

      • Libertylover

        People can change, that’s the hopeful message, When I first saw Mike Rinder on Panorama with Sweeney, I despised him. It taught me that we don’t always know what is going on behind the scenes.
        Fast forward 10 years or so and he wrote that “remarkable personal essay.” What a stellar chap he is now and this led to this post today. Who would have thunk I would be reading his blog everyday.
        When these stories get you down, I try to think of positive things like this. Things can and do get better, I try not to be bitter and hold on to hope.

  • Sebastian L. Jackson

    Seemed appropriate.

  • nottrue

    Nora Crest =

  • BraveBloggers

    Nora, your strength of character, willingness to share painful experiences in the name of truth and too many more attributes to name make you not only a hero, but a TRUE “opinion leader”. You’re a class act and I simply adore and admire you. Your warmth and honesty shine through. There is no way you could ever be less than anything. It’s just not possible. You were born to shine, and you do. ((HUGS))

  • Chee Chalker

    Nora, your kids are very lucky to have two kind and amazing parents!
    (As with most kids, they might not realize it now, but they will someday)

  • Newiga

    I think I’ve used my weight’s worth of tissues for the past few weeks reading the Bunker.

    Nora, you are a courageous woman! Thank you for telling such a personal story and speaking out about this important topic. xxoo

  • Chee Chalker

    PS…..someone should kick Miscavige in his tiny balls and tell him he pulled it in

  • Sebastian L. Jackson

    Anybody ever think to go to a liberal network like MSNBC or Pacifica with this stuff?

  • Supper Powers

    After watching and pondering Nora’s video, Chris has a new one up for you to watch, too.
    http://mncriticalthinking.com/author/skepticalseeker/

  • madame duran
  • Still_On_Your_Side

    Nora, your bravery will inspire others and will corner Miscavige on his rabid homophobia. Your video also exposes the pretense/lies of Hollywood-scientologists regarding the LGBT community.

  • Narapoid

    Thank you for Sharing that Nora. That was… wow… putting it all out there! And I know this will help other pilgrims blowing the cult, SO and the mind-control culture. Will Prepon and the Masterson woman get it? I don’t care if they do, so long as it is widely known what the Hubbard monster is and what it does. You are damned-sure doing your part!

    Bless you and your family!

  • Nat-leficent
    • Newiga

      O/T: But those green flames remind me of Aurora Borealis. Since winter is coming, we’ve been seeing quite a lot of them for the past few days. F5 (not my pics)

      http://matwww.ee.tut.fi/hypmed98/aurora/janc_021.jpg

      http://www.discoveringfinland.com/ftp/VisitFinland4/Aurora-Lapland.jpg

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        It’s so hard to tell from pictures, but does one get a real 3 dimensional effect in person?

        • Newiga

          Sort of, depending on how bright they are. They look like bright curtains waving/flickering in the sky. It’s a breath-taking experience to see them. F5 for video

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc3FxNXjBs0

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Wow! Amazing. Have you been to the glass igloo place already? That looked amazing too and I’ve since added it to my bucket list.

            • Newiga

              Unfortunately not.. But I’ve been camping in the middle of winter.. 😉

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              Didn’t you post about going there soon? Maybe I’m mistaken….again.

            • Newiga

              Nope… I wish I was going though. :/

          • Libertylover

            I doubt I will ever get to see them myself, I’m jealous.

            Joanna Lumley’s BBC series on hunting for the lights is one of my all time faves. Perhaps some of you outside the UK haven’t seen it. I highly recommend it. The final scenes when she eventually gets to experience it are amazing and the next best thing for me.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR5x42AQTSk&list=PLC9AE34F9CA3C7458

  • MaxSpaceman

    In Scientology with Hubbardthink, RTC/OSA/Dave Miscavige punish and torture devoted members who are gay.

    It is the cherch that is degraded. It is the cherch of $cientology that is 1.1 on the Tone Scale.

    Thank you, Nora- a strikingly powerful presentation.

  • pixie dust

    Nora – That was one of the bravest things I have ever witnessed. I’m just blown away. If I ever get to meet you, I’m going to give you the biggest hug EVER!!!

    • chukicita

      I think you’ll have to get in line, pixie dust!

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I hope if she goes to HowdyCon, she doesn’t charge for autographs like they do at other conventions.

  • Mike Duncan

    “Scuse me, while I kiss this guy” — Jimi Hendrix

    That’s why he never got rooked and swindled by these violent Scientology criminals.

    • Robert Eckert

      “We’ve got to hold on to what we’ve got, doesn’t make a difference if we’re naked or not” — Jon Bon Jovi

    • Always Amazed

      “Life would be ecstasy, you and me and Lesley. “… The rascals

  • Doc. M

    For anyone who would like to download the infamous South Park Episode, it’s available on the Xenu site:

    http://www.xenu.net/

    I forgot how cleaver it really was.

    • anoni81b4u

      It really was great. Those guys are incredible!

    • Miss Tia
      • Doc. M

        Miss Tia, if you go to the first link, it does bring up the South Park episodes site, HOWEVER
        if you click on a season, you get a scam message saying that your computer has viruses with a number to call.
        Right now, I’m scanning for malware and viruses, just to make sure nothing was downloaded from the site by these scammers.

        I’d stay away from the site for now, or at the least, have all your security procedures running properly.

        • Miss Tia

          I alternate between both those links…..I have really good AV and it will block sites but I have never gotten a warning, nada. Do you use adblock plus? Could it have been an ad that caused the problem? (which is why I never encountered it?)…….

          nope, just double checked, nada….checked my AV logs from the scan it runs over night and nothing…..

          ETA: i’ll edit to just use the 2nd one….

          • Doc. M

            Yes, I use good software, and just ran a Malwarebytes scan…I picked up 3 malwares.

            Malwarebytes is a good program and has picked up things that others have missed. Download a free trial and run a scan. I also use Iobits which works well as well as some others.

            I’m pretty persistent in my scans so I don’t know for sure if the 3 came from the site, but when I tried to watch an episode, the message popped up with the following phone number for help: 1-888-354-3761. I’m sure it’s a Microsoft overseas scam deal.

            From last nights scans, my computer was clean..and the only other site I visited this morning was the Bunker….so ya never know, but the malware is becoming more sophisticated.

            • Miss Tia

              i have malwarebytes…..it runs before my AV does a scan every night…..i just ran it again….nada…..what in tarnation?! i watch at least 2 south park episodes a day and yesterday i watched ’em from that particular site—bookmarked got to it quicker…..

              do you use adblock? i know some ads can be malicious—how/why sites allow that i dunno, i don’t think they do that knowingly, obviously…..

            • Doc. M

              yes, adblock also,

              guess we’ll never know what or why

            • Miss Tia

              no we won’t…..wait…one more thing…..firefox? i have firefox….let me check….i have version 34…

              so strange!

            • Those adverts tell you you have (non-eixistant) malware in order to persuade you to download their anti-virus ‘solution’ – which is malware, and makes matter worse. Sometimes, they even try to sell it you.

              It’s a bit like a Scientology ‘personality test’ – you’re fine, but the results always tell you that you are a in dire straits and desperately need a Scientology course.

              You can download all of South Park’s references to Scientology here https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/04/29/scientology-vs-south-park/

  • sugarplumfairy

    Good for Nora.. Her video is so honest and sensitive and she obviously still has very strong feelings about everything she went through. She’s got to be one of the strongest people I’ve kinda sorta met here..

    Bravo, Nora..

  • Sherbet

    She is so refreshing to listen to. Where do I join the fan club?

  • Douglas D. Douglas

    Slightly O/T, but if any of you had been wondering about the true agenda of a relatively new poster here named “Edward Clarke,” my lengthy exchange with him from yesterday might remove any doubts.

    “Edward” seems to have a bee in his bonnet about one of Paul Haggiss’s statements in Going Clear (the documentary). He repeatedly has come here stating that the documentary is not all that, least reason being that Haggis appears to be either stupid or hypocritical in it, on the basis that he claims to have had no knowledge whatsoever about Scientology’s true views on homosexuality over the course of his 30 years as a practicing member– and that Gibney failed to sufficiently follow up on the subject.

    When it was pointed out to him (by others and myself) that Haggis had made other statements in other media (including Wright’s original interview and book), he ignored them and continued doggedly casting doubts on the film and Haggis. Finally, I politely asked him to stop hectoring us on the subject. And that (as they say) is when the trouble began. You are welcome to read the full exchange here (click on the link and scroll up to my original comment to him that leads off the conversation):
    http://tonyortega.org/2015/10/10/another-minor-omen-of-the-coming-scientology-apocaypse-appears-in-florida/#comment-2301121585

    For those who do not wish to wade through the back-and-forth, a screen grab of our final exchange is provided below.

    While I had my doubts about his motives, for me suspicions were conformed by some rather familiar tactics:
    — When directly challenged, Edward did not offer information, but rather went on the attack.
    — Edward began using his same tactics against me, implying that I was using the techniques of OSA and the Squirrel Busters(!) in an effort to sow doubt.
    — Two new posters (one account created just yesterday) appeared out of the blue to offer support– and this in a conversation in a section of the thread that was hours old.

    “Edward Clarke” and others who come here may confuse courtesy with stupidity. Right now there is a concerted effort by the CoS to discredit Gibney’s Going Clear and derail its nomination for an Academy Award. When anyone begins what appears to be a consistent effort to question it, or its participants, they will be met with challenges and hard questions. If they can’t take the heat, stay out of the Bunker.

    • Libertylover

      He is a Scion to his core, no doubt. I thought that since he trashed Jim Beverley. He didn’t fool Jimmy 3 or Fly either. Just divide and conquer old school stuff. I don’t think he will be back under that name but was probably the MacMackson guy too. Pretty pathetic attempt really.

      • Edward Clarke

        I wasn’t ANYONE else LL.
        I accused JB of asking for a downpayment without claiming the final figure. After backing down on his aggressive opening to the marketing, and doubling the rental length, I believe he is STILL investigating the final cost he expects people to pay. Not too much to ask.
        And as I said at the time, if I was a Sci, the last thing I would want is the failure of these rental lectures, lest they end up on youtube with 1000 times more viewings.

        • Libertylover

          Well one positive thing is you came back and defended yourself +1 for that. You just are always critical and seem to be shooting to divide people when you come here. Maybe your just an unhappy person but who knows. I know Scientologists NEVER lie (sarcasm.)
          So Haggis didn’t do anything until his daughters were targeted, OK point taken but he did as soon as they were, didn’t he. No one has a time machine and can go and fix their mistakes. Now is all that matters.
          Going Clear is a MASTERPIECE, I’d be shocked if it didn’t win the oscar.

    • Miss Tia

      Thank you for this DDD!! Your vigilance is much appreciated!

      • Edward Clarke

        It’s misplaced Miss Tia.
        * I claimed that Going Clear was very good, but I didn’t think was the standard to win an Oscar. I was asked to clarify anything in it I felt Gibney should have done differently, and specifically asked what I would have asked Paul Haggis (by Dodo, I think). I said he should have asked Haggis more about knowing nothing about the church’s stance on homosexuality, as this was unconvincing. The doc claims he knew NOTHING. DDD said this was incorrect per many Haggis statements. This makes it even worse – because Going Clear says otherwise.
        * The discussion moved onto homosexuality and the views of Scientology. Here,. Haggis is a good example. As a senior member (and almost a senior citizen) he claimed ignorance (according to Gibney at least), but also claimed things were different, ie worse, for his daughter’s generation. This is worth noting. Especially as the general public have seen the opposite shift in society. 60 somethings are far more homophobic than their teenage offspring.
        * DDD claimed I was editing my comments to make his responses look stupid. He just made it up. His comments looked stupid without my help (and looked no different whether or not I had made the edits he claimed). In order to ‘prove’ I was editing (and lucky for me, his settings ensured he wouldn’t get the proof – phew!), he started to post screengrabs of unedited posts of mine. I pointed out this was like the Scientology videos where an accused Sci just picks up and points a camera.
        * And after making false accusation about editing, and then copying all of my posts just like a squirrel buster… lo, new members come on offering me support and copying my posts almost word for word in one instance.
        I don’t have to don a deer stalker hat and pipe to take a good guess at who it likely was.
        Unfortunately, there is a lot of nastiness, suspicion and needless cheerleading on here.
        He was proved wrong on the post manipulation, on the content of Going Clear, so how about we complete the trilogy? How about asking the moderator to have a look at the IP addresses of our mysterious new members and put this one to bed.

        • Sergeant Pepper

          Your belaboring (some would say hectoring) convinces me DDD has you, your motive, and your method accurately categorized.

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            Oh lordy, it begins again.

            How about asking the moderator to have a look at the IP addresses of our mysterious new members and put this one to bed.

            Because that’s not how it works here. The Proprietor knows the community is intelligent enough to figure things out on our own.

            How much longer do we indulge this? I would far rather discuss Nora’s video (I am only half way through it right now).

            • Edward Clarke

              Once again, you started it.
              As I pointed out you yesterday, you posted to me that I should stop posting certain things, then said you would not be told to stop posting certain things directly afterwards?!?!
              Now you’ve started a subject that’s OT, and claim you don’t want to discuss it.
              You need to square yourself away.

            • Miss Tia

              “…you started it.” teacher teacher!!! he started it!!! Waaaa!!!! i’m telling….

              dude…..this isn’t pre-school…..

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              And I have the supreme bad taste to offer a link to the entire exchange in question. Just so everyone is able to conveniently go and peruse my bad behavior for themselves.

            • Miss Tia

              i actually learned how to link to a whole convo now thanks to that—thank you!! 🙂 never thought of linking to the last post to be able to include it all!

              yeah, gee, gotta suck to know that not only are there screen grabs, there’s a link….and i know there are others here who screen grab too…..

            • Miss Tia

              it’s been indulged enough….he seems to want to continue this in perpetuity though…..

            • Always Amazed

              Keep listening to the good stuff, DDD. 😉

          • Edward Clarke

            It’s just not healthy to complain that every comment you don’t agree with comes from an SP, and then try to have them declared.

            • Miss Tia

              who’s done that? right, no one….you’re putting words in people’s mouths…..if you’re putting stuff in people’s mouths, could it be some short bread? chocolate chip cookies?

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Next up: The Bunker is nothing more than a log-rolling, back-scratching hive mind of Ortega cultists. (And where have we heard that before???)

            • Miss Tia

              hmmm…gee, i dunno, but that sure sounds familiar! 😉

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              And consider this dismaying observation– within moments after I am offered comments of support, the subject at hand comes galumphing into the thread to offer his take on the situation. Almost as if I am being… stalked. (Or would that be trolled?)

            • Miss Tia

              but he claims he feels like marty rathbun here!! yeah, you’re being trolled…..obviously he refuses to accept that when someone calls another out, with evidence, we will look at it and come to our own conclusions—of course 99.9999999% agreeing with the person who called the person out (i can’t think of a time we didn’t, but i didn’t want to be 100%, ya know?)…….now, instead of proclaiming how something was miconstrued, etc he basically totally proves your point and continues to do so again and again……do they know they’re doing it? dunno…..

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I am sure there must be a Footbullet-TR somewhere in Miscavige’s Golden Age of Tech…

            • Edward Clarke

              ‘they’… OK, let me put it to you this way… the accusations are now that I’m a Scientologist. I’ve said I have emails proving the original accusations (as backed by Robert E and DDD) are false. Disqus changes after edits but emails – obviously – do not. There’s no point debating this – the proof is absolute. I’ve also suggested someone look at IPs, which will be a game ender for someone.
              Anyway, if I’m NOT a Scientologist, I know how mob-mental it is in here.
              As for responding instantly, I’d been on and watched the video, and then read the post. So hard to believe?

            • Miss Tia

              I admit I don’t understand the email thing…..are you claiming people have altered the screen grabs they took?

              Re: IP being a game ender for someone, are you implying something is fishy with DDD’s IP addy? DDD has been here quite some time…..

              I don’t understand how proof can be absolute when only you possess it…….

              you responding instantly that’s not hard to believe…..

            • Edward Clarke

              False accounts will post from an IP address. This might match that of another poster exactly. If they’ve posted from somewhere else, another PC or wifi account, we could still be pretty sure. If I’m posting from Manchester England and DDD is posting from Anchorage Alaska, should the faker be at either location, we can be pretty sure who it was. Especially as neither of us is aware of where the other one posted from to begin with.

            • Miss Tia

              whom do you think is the faker? i’m really confused now….do you think DDD is a faker? do you think someone was impersonating you? o_O i really don’t understand who you think is the faker……

            • Edward Clarke

              Briefly Tia… DDD accused me of being one, after I noticed at least three odd looking accounts, one of which followed me around. One ‘looked’ like he was there to discredit me by agreeing with me in an overly false way. And DDD stepped up to the plate to say so. (One false account went into details on ‘missions’ which was all over my head, but you’ll have to take my word on that).
              Ultimately, the IP address will likely reveal who it was if it was a regular on here. There are ways around this, of course…. someone could get their cousin in Vermont to do it. But that’s all very cloak and dagger, especially since you’ve said people here don’t check.
              However, I suspect the IP address will either be an exact match for a regular poster, or match their location (one from home wifi, say, one from cell phone account). In which case, unless I happened to know DDD was in Vermont, and I just happened to have a cousin there, and he did this crazy thing for me, and I was lucky enough that a) he accused me and b) someone else checked the addresses, then I think we could safely assume it was him (under those circumstances).
              I’m not saying it was him, although I know who it wasn’t. And it was definitely being done with the intentions he brought up.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Just doing a little “catch up” on this thread.

              I made no accusations (you can read the exchange for yourself), but I did say I was suspicious that two other recent posters appeared out of the blue to defend this one when he began directly attacking me. My gut feeling is that they work together– not that they are socks. But that’s pure speculation, which is why I didn’t make the accusation.

              The other aspect of this I find really odd is the poster’s references to email alerts and IPs. Me, I just log into a Disqus account and post. No bells and whistles, and no need to keep track of anything. It’s the same reason I don’t lie. Liars eventually forget what they have lied about, and are caught out. This will not happen to me.

            • Miss Tia

              ah, that explains that….as obviously he didn’t want to explain to that issue and ignored my other questions—such as the email one, which was fine cuz ‘confusion’!! EXACTLY!!! if you always tell the truth you don’t have to think about what you’re saying and having to wonder if it conflicts with something else you said, etc…..liars are indeed caught out, eventually…..i always say time bares out the truth and the true character of people…..

            • Miss Tia

              and thanks for clearing that up a bit for me! 🙂

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              He’s back in today’s thread about the rock festival. Making chummy-chummy with everyone in sight, including the proprietor.

              Hope springs eternal…!

            • Miss Tia

              yeah, i saw that…..just as pleasant as can be, trying to ingratiate themselves or appear as a contributing member…..hope does spring eternal, but i have an eyebrow cocked…..

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              You might no longer be a scientologist, and you even have a sliver of a point about the “mob mentality” that in a small way characterizes the comaraderie of those here aligned against the evils of Scientology, but virtually all of your posts demonstrate that your mind is still very much imprisoned by your Scientology training.

            • Edward Clarke

              I haven’t taken any training S.H.

              My sole sources on Scientology are various BBC docs, various articles, inc Tampa Bay Times and New Yorker, and two main blogs – this and Mike Rinder’s. Books? I’ve read Jon Atacks, John Sweeney’s and currently reading Going Clear (it was hard to get in the UK on release, but noticed it easily available when the film was shown here a couple of weeks back).

              I did listen to two LRH lectures that were referenced on here about a month ago. The Congresses. 15 of them are easily available. One, called The Practicalities of Religion was unlistenable garbage. 30+ mins of a shopping list of people with improved IQs. If true, he would have won a Nobel Prize.

              My mind isn’t imprisoned by anything. Quite the contrary – there is no one in this issue who could make a false claim or conduct bad business and it wouldn’t register with me because of who they are.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Well then, Mr. Clarke, I stand corrected. I am surprised that you are a never-in because you reason like so many other active or recently out scientologists that have posted here. Btw, would you mind clarifying your last sentence? I can’t tell what you mean. Thanks. Also if you don’t mind, How did you find yourself so interested in Scientology?

            • Edward Clarke

              Sir Hemet, I mean that if Tony, John Sweeney, Jon Atack or Leah Remini say something or do something I think involves factual inaccuracies or falsehoods, or is somehow misguided, I will spot it (and mention it). I have been given the overriding impression that such a thing doesn’t happen here – things are in black and white with people on one side of the fence or on the other for ex Scientologists and Scientologists alike. Someone commented about me ‘this guy even attacked Jim Beverley!’ This statement sounded off major alarm bells at this end. It is very telling, don’t you think? (And for the record, after I complained that Jim had used similar over-sell and no-final-price-included selling techniques to Scientology, he apologised for some of the language used, HALVED the cost of continual use of his product, and said he would consider naming an actual final price – although to the best of my knowledge he is yet to do so)

              Anyway. Sir Hemet, since you seem reasonable at this juncture, let me throw a few concepts your way and you can let me know what you think:

              Imagine, for a second, that I have never had anything to do with Scientology or any of its training. Then take in the kind of accusations that have been levelled at me. From Day One they have been very specific about how I was following a tech playbook, etc. To the letter. Even some of the well meaning, non aggressive ones are equally as instructive. DodoTheLaser, perhaps the most reasoned of my accusers, finished his comment on me having supposedly outed myself with ‘Good luck Edward’. I actually found this the most shocking of all. The Christian debate equivalent would be this:
              Me: “You do know that all those animals couldn’t get on Noah’s boat, don’t you?”
              A Christian: “I’ll pray for you”

              It was clear Dodo saw me as a brainwashed Sci, but held out the wish and hope that one day I could become a real boy just like he did. Imagine, if you can, the stunned silence at my end, if I was never involved in Scientology. And all this came about because I said Going Clear was good but didn’t deserve to win an Oscar, and that Haggis’s claims about knowing nothing re: Hubbard and homosexuality just weren’t believable in said documentary. In another bizarre twist, Douglas, who then went to great lengths attacking me on this point, would end up proving it himself by showing that Haggis’s claims in said film (actually made for him via Gibney’s voiceover) are not actually true based on other statements he has made.

              I could give you countless examples, but hopefully you’re following me so far. Want to come a little further? Imagine I’m not just a non Scientologist, but I have never posted here under any other name. And then have a look at the fake accounts that surrounded me two days ago, and the subsequent accusation from Douglas that I was behind it. And the mob approval of said accusation. If I was already forming an opinion about the mindset and behaviour of ex-Scientologists, what would I be thinking *now*? Remain in this hypothetical moment of believing I am nothing to do with Scientology and haven’t posted via so-called ‘sock’ accounts. Have I gone to thinking ex-Scientologists have gone from still showing signs of seriously blocked thinking, to happily acting out dishonestly on those beliefs? Is it reasonable for me to assume that after loads of false accusations, I’m now being out-and-out FAIR GAMED by actions as well as words?

              Remain in a hypothetical belief that I’m nothing to do with Scientology as we unpack this. I have no choice but to think the accusations about me being a Scientologist are genuine, i.e. as untrue as it may be, the people saying it do genuinely believe it. It is more than likely that it is someone with this genuine belief who has taken *action* against me via sock accounts to create a false impression about what I’m willing to do. Although this action would be 100% dishonest, the person or persons doing it possibly did so because of what they believe I believe. They may have been able to compartmentalise the knowledge that they were doing wrong, by focussing on the fact that it was actually *right* in the grand scheme of things. THEY DID IT FOR THE GOOD OF THE GROUP.

              So, if I’m not a Scientologist, and had nothing to do with these sock accounts, what would I be thinking about all of this by now? What picture of ex Scientologists has been painted exactly? Is my belief that ex Scientologist act very similarly to their counterparts receding or is it starting to sound like it should be growing exponentionally by now?

              Someone was moderating posts on here last night. I think such a moderator should be able to check, to a reasonable degree of certainty, which, if any, regular posters were behind these sock accounts. I invite them once again to do so.

              I’ll finish with this little conundrum. If Tony himself, who has put a lot of great work into this website and community, investigated this, and found the IP or IP location of the fake accounts was an exact match for a regular, well liked poster… what would he do?

            • sugarplumfairy

              Jeeez.. You think too much..

              Relax and enjoy the bunker.. If you are compelled to point out every inconsistency you can dig up (And let’s face it, when you do find one, you’re really reaching..) Then point it out .. But omg you don’t have to beat the dead horse until it’s mush.. Lighten tfu.. Nobody but you cares that much about what you’re saying.. If you are determined to get people to agree that Haggis, Jon, Tony, Sweeney, Beverley and god knows whoever else you have a hard-on for, are deliberately misleading people, you are definitely in the wrong place..

              It’s like you get paid by the word when you’re here.. Do you get paid, EC?

            • Edward Clarke

              Fairy, I get asked a question and then given grief for answering. I was specifically asked about Haggis by Dodo, and then asked another by Sir H. above. If you can’t answer or deal with it, is there much point in trying to deconstruct the fact I’ve responded at all?

              I said I *would* spot it if these people were misleading. I don’t think everyone would. I didn’t say they had been. The answer was clear.

              How many things that you’ve just said also apply to Douglas bringing this up again unasked for yesterday, with added accusations. I missed you telling him to ‘lighten tfu’ or that he ‘don’t have to beat the dead horse’, or that his post was too long, or included silly, redundant screengrabs. Or more to the point, included totally unsubstantiated accusations. Why didn’t you? Aren’t you just proving that you’re still acting like a Scientologist – some comments are all good, some are all bad, depending on where they come from?

              Aren’t you concerned by certain Bunker attitudes? Does it not seem quietly disturbing that when accusations are made and I point out how easy it would be to clarify for sure, the response is ‘No, around here we would rather just trust our instincts.’

              If two people are arguing about Schrodinger’s Cat, one saying the cat is alive, and one saying the cat is dead… if one says they should just open the box and find out, and the other would rather be certain on faith alone (faith which we know has lead them down the garden path before), I know where I’d stand on the fate of the cat.

            • sugarplumfairy

              And I say it doesn’t matter.. As long as the damn cat is in the frking box he has no quality of life so may as well be dead..

              My point is life is short.. Why waste it arguing a point that you will never drive home?

              Have a good day, EC.. Get some sun and have some fun..

              Your friend, Fairy

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Mr. Clarke, just noticed your response. Sorry for the delay in responding, but I have a full time job. I’ve been a daily lurker since tony’s early days at the VV, and have my own, although very brief, experiences with scientology. I do not comment regularly, but I have had episodes where I do. I know the zeitgeist here very well, which I assume you know as well, which is why I am somewhat surprised by your consternation, even though I do not at all disagree with what you have said above, since your analysis is straightforwardly quite rational and accurate: there is without question a group-think and aggressiveness that exists here. What surprises me is that you don’t seem to appreciate how ubiquitous such group-think is on the internet, and that you might not seem to recognize or at least acknowledge the important and substantial difference between the group-think here and the group-think of scientology. I think that one of the primary reasons you were, I think unfairly, harshly treated like an OSA troll is that you broke an unwritten but cardinal rule that is operation here (and in operation for all such social groups): Apparently, from what I can recall having skimmed all of your posts several nights ago, you showed up here and almost immediately kicked things off with a criticism, without any initial demonstration of your understanding or appreciation of the wickedness of the cult. It is prerequisite here (and in ANY human group that has coalesced in shared opposition of an organization that has seriously harmed the many of members of the in-group). Your overall interaction style (i.e., especially your limited demonstration of empathetic group-solidarity but also your accurate but narrow and dogged focus on ~relatively~ minor issues) is HIGHLY TYPICAL of the numerous scientology trolls that shown up here, over and over through the years. It makes me think that you do not see the big picture of human behavior very well (which happens among some member here, too). One other thing that reminds me very much of the behavior of a (ex)scientologist, you seem to dodge questions. Please, I’m curious Mr. Clarke, would you mind answering my question about how you came to be so interested in scientology, and so intensely passionate about arguing with members of this tight-knit group? Thanks for your time.

            • Edward Clarke

              Hey Sir H., I reckon we could have this conversation back here in ‘the past’ without anyone else noticing… which might be a good thing! [And I just edited my profile to ‘private’ for this reason]

              You are right about my beginnings in the group. I didn’t know the type of community it was. I do a lot of internet posting on various forums, but never one like this (or in this strange – to me – format). Everywhere I’ve posted there are mixed opinions, not group think. I don’t think I misjudged those comments necessarily, just perhaps that I ‘opened’ with them. No point in going back over it, but having had a laugh and a head scratch along with everyone else the week before on The Bunker (just Tony’s article, I didn’t look at comments back then) at the selling of LRH lectures, I thought I’d stepped into The Twilight Zone when I saw the ‘good guys’ employ similar techniques (imho), inventing wild figures for show and refusing to give a final price. I remain very cynical of that whole enterprise (and I thought that my posts could ultimately be to the benefit of this tight knit group. And I think I *did* step into The Twilight Zone after all, it just wasn’t the one I expected.

              I would take some issue about my dogged focus on narrow issues. Maybe not entirely regarding the lectures, and you can argue I should have let a small (yet vitally important) inconsistency from Mike Rinder lie. However… the thing that kicked off at the weekend, I actually don’t think I said anything remotely incendiary, re: Going Clear. ‘Really enjoyed it, not quite good enough to be considered Best worldwide Documentary of the year’… anything that spiralled from there was all based on questions asked of me. And even then, it remained innocent for a while. [As an aside, film would be my specialist subject. I could also happily say why 12 Years A Slave should never have been nominated, never mind won Best Picture – no sacred cows allowed] And I actually toned down a lot of my comments, as many people do anyway. In other words, I have my own suspicions about the sequence of events that lead to Haggis leaving the church, and what he knew but didn’t care about beforehand. And there is a ton of Gibney’s voiceover where I think he should have been more balanced. Some things could be known only to one person (who isn’t talking) but he presented what was blatant hearsay as fact. I did believe it, but AG should have known better. Gibney’s films are always entertaining and I look forward to them. But it doesn’t mean I trust his message entirely. I also don’t believe he’s 100% honest. His excuse for shelving his Lance Armstrong doc before Lance admitted doping, I felt was a shaggy dog story. What I think he should have said was ‘I made an Armstrong doc in the hope that the wheels would come off mid shoot. When they didn’t, I put it aside, in the hope his life would fall apart, then went back to him saying he owed me an exclusive’. But I digress. As usual. [For the record, my posts are full of spelling errors and overwritten paras and redundant sentences. But since being falsely accused of editing one, I have just left them be (until last night when one was beyond confusing), so apols for the length]

              Talking of length, it was with this in mind and the fact that I had already answered direct Qs about my interest in Scientology, that I ‘dodged’ that already well-worn question. To save you having to dig for it, I’ll sum up again…. I come from a fundamentalist religious family, but have never been a believer myself. The older I get, the less acceptable it seems to me for normal people to believe stories as crazy as Lord of the Rings like they are true. And like many people, I upped the ante after 9/11.

              Scientology is interesting for the same reasons. Silly stories, mind control, pack madness. The two things I really like about it most though, are the fact that they took every advantage a religion has over, say, a car company, and exploited it to the max. In the long run, this will help have these special privileges revoked for *everyone*, I genuinely think that. And, as chance would have it, when I bought my first so-called ‘adult novel around age 11, I bought the fattest child-friendly one I could find, just for show (although I read and enjoyed it). It was Battlefield Earth. I wouldn’t find out about Hubbard’s other activities for another 15 years.

              As for your other comment you made around the same time last night, about me changing my posting style… I don’t think I have. After the lectures, I would say my posting was fairly normal, until it blew up again. My main issue, after making an unpopular comment, is that I *do* answer every question thrown at me, in as much detail as possible.

              And sadly, even my run of the mill posts can send me into The Twilight Zone. Two in the last two days have almost gone the same way for no reason at all. A post about why I believe that Miscavige is violent when examining the evidence lead to it being described as a ‘defence’ by sugarplumfairy. He was given no such defence, not a single positive word. I actually went further than most to show why a reasoned look at the accusations against how they would appear if fictional, pretty much seals his guilt. And the less said about a post that had nothing to do with Going Clear being described as a sly attack on it 10 times yesterday by one complete imbecile, the better. In none of these 10 trolling posts, was any explanation given, despite 9 attempts at asking for it. And the tact soon became that I was refusing to answer *their* question!!! This after their question had been answered four times, with references to how they already were well aware of the answer and were stalling rather than admitting to trolling… well. That was the new low point in my view of how barking mad someone in this community can be (although fortunately none of her 10 comments got any support, so I tried to see that as a positive). I had to point out that I now truly felt like John Sweeney dealing with Tommy Davis.

              So the community has become incredibly interesting to me. I’ll admit never more so than when the OSA accusations are flying. Although, and you’ll just have to believe me on this, I don’t encourage them just to watch it happen, and try to nip it in the bud as best I can when it does. But I do feel in those moments that I get a unique glimpse of a mindset that money can’t buy, and that I would never have guessed existed a month ago.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              You appear to be a true skeptic, Mr. Clarke, a stance that I greatly admire and aspire to maintain. Will respond further later…

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Mr. C., I have a bit of time to respond. Thanks so much for reiterating the development of your interest in scientology. As someone who was also brought up in a Christian family with a very roman catholic education plus an evangelical born-again experience in my youth, which was quickly followed by brief exposure to scientology and interaction with several scientologists, I have always had a keen interest in religion and particularly in scientology. I later pursued advanced studies in philosophy and neuroscience, and now consider myself a very devout secular humanist, empiricist, and skeptic, of the Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, and the late Christopher Hitchens (peace be upon him) variety. Since you have also been able to throw off the crazy supernatural fairy tale beliefs of your childhood, I think that you would greatly enjoy any of their works (if you have not imbibed already), particularly any of their youtube videos, which IMO make for highly enlightening and cogent entertainment.

              Again, everything that you have argued for in the posts that I read appears to be rational and accurate. You were definitely seen as a troll, and treated like one, quite unjustly (e.g., I saw where you were accused of creating a sock account, and I later found the evidence that proved the accusation false). I must admit, I fell into the prejudice. But you really seemed like an OSA troll to me, which is partially based on my late entry into the exchange, but mostly based on my experience of having had numerous exchanges with scientologists here, several of which have been quite extensive, all of which have exasperating, and a few in which I seemed to affect a small rational change. There used to be a lot more scientologists and ex-scientologists who would come here to “argue” (i.e., troll) or try and make a point, and many, many more scientologists who posted on various blogs on the internet, but they have largely (and thankfully) evaporated. It has been something of a sport for some of us at the bunker (me, especially) to take them on. If you are so inclined, I hope you have the chance to try and reason with one. It is quite an experience. And sorry to re-reiterate yet again, but your argument style was highly similar to the OSA profile when you first starting posting here. I’m not sure who all took you on, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some were former scientologists, since I have certainly seen (and even personally experienced) a few ex-scientology commenters here engage in scientology-styled attacks. There once was a somewhat popular poster here, Espi, who Tony finally kicked off because he was so immediately vicious towards anyone he thought a troll (we even had a nearly successful ‘catfish’ here once!). There are a few others who are still around, but who I will not name. And I agree that Rinder and Rathbun still manifest their scientology mind-fuck to some degree. I used to read Rathbun’s website daily beginning soon after he started it when he was still trying to maintain his beliefs in the power of LRH’s tech. It was completely fascinating to watch his thoughts evolve, at least until he had thrown most of it off and then became much to new-age spiritual and mushy-thinking to maintain my interest.

              Anyway, based on my experiences, this is one of the more interesting subjects and commenting groups on the internet (sciencebasedmedicine.org is another), with a great deal of wisdom, insight, humor, and compassion…as long a you gain that initial trust, which you have now largely accomplished (and not, as you pointed out, by altering you posting style, but simply by being accurate and rational) with most people here, although a few still seem to be hanging on their prejudice. I think that you will find that the group here respects and appreciates a great deal of dissension and disagreement…as long one the popular commenters here doesn’t inappropriately presume and announce that you are a troll!
              Mr. Clarke, I enjoyed the exchange. If you have not already, go watch Hitchens debate with Tony Blair. It is excellent. Cheers!

            • Edward Clarke

              Great response there, Sir Hemet. Thanks for that.

              I didn’t know the ‘sock’ issue had been resolved. I’ve read about 60% of the comments since then, and it would take me a whole day to go back through ’em all. Who was the scoundrel wot did it? [Actually I don’t know for sure it was done to discredit me, that might just have been how it turned out]

              I think we’re very similar, hopefully not in a Hannibal / Will Graham sort of way. Yep, already familiar with most of the so-called New Atheists. Although me being hyper critical, I have some kinda issue with most of them. [A favourite might be Matt Dillahunty and his crew at The Atheist Experience] I loved Sam Harris for a long time, but he’s getting increasingly political, too ‘spiritual’ for my personal taste, and clings to some of his less than great ideas with the same tenacity as the great ones. I still think his insistence that Mormonism is worse than Christianity as being an undeniable fact is just a poor, one dimensional argument. Crazy + Crazy = More Crazy, in his view. With that, Christianity is crazier than Judaism. My personal belief is that the Old Testament is the most vile piece of lying garbage ever compiled. Any religion that adds further books, thus diluting it’s importance (even if just as a percentage of their overall belief system) has to be a step in the right direction, imho.

              Dawkins carries the brainwashing of his Christian background in the same way I do. Protestant Christianity looks less crazy than other religions to me. It always will. At least I can understand why it does, as I was subjected to it for so long. It never seemed rational, but after a while it seemed ‘normal’. Some aspect of that remains with me. I can’t discard it, but at least I can see it. [I could only discard it, by ‘writing’ something else over the top of it, and that isn’t going to happen].

              Here are a few quick examples of the family I’m in. I asked my Uncle – a high level engineer – about his current work. He said he’d been offered a job in China, but God told him not to go. Whoa! Perhaps influenced by Harris’s idea of practising ‘conversational intolerance’, I asked him to explain how that chat with the big man had gone down. Here goes: He gets offered a contract in China during the week, decision required by Monday morning. Talks with his wife. it has pros and cons, a hard decision to make. They decide that God has until 9.30pm on Sunday (presumably when they retire) to tell them not to go, otherwise, they will say yes. At 9.15pm, the phone goes. Someone from their Church. With the news that the Youth Leader has just announced he can’t do it anymore. They think my Uncle is the ideal replacement, and they ask him if he’ll do it going forward, one night a week.

              My Uncle and Aunt embraced and wept. There was no doubt about what they should do, and no doubt about what had just happened – the creator of the Universe had just been in touch. I had both seen the little man behind the curtain and ironically realised at the same time that he was also a leviathan I could never defeat. My Uncle had both failed to see the sleight of hand, nor realise that he was also the magician who had performed the trick himself.

              In my battle for proof over how crazy religion was, it was 1-0 to me (by my counting only). Some balance. My Aunt, his wife, broke her wrist in a fall. It was put in plaster, removed two weeks later. The removing nurse told her it had been badly applied two weeks ago, and done more damage than good. After a few more months, they told her she would never regain full use of the wrist due to their mistake. So, I asked her, are you going to sue them where they live? She looked shocked at the question. No, she said, the nurse who did it was trying to help her as best she could. It would not be ‘Christian’ to take any action.

              I would have sued. That score is now 1-1.

              A little piece of philosophy I read two decades ago I think is the answer to a lot of these beliefs, and would have stopped my Uncle thinking he was in direct communication with a Deity. It’s absolutely true, and if understood correctly and completely, would be a shield of steel against almost all of this crap:

              “Those who look for signs will find them everywhere.”

              A big fan of Hitchens, but never seen his Tony Blair debate. I will check it out this very weekend. A good one to you and yours. Cheers!

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Another great post, Mr. Clarke! I greatly enjoyed hearing about your aunt, and especially your uncle (if we aren’t alike, well then are families certain are!). I always find fascinating the narratives that our species construct to explain their experiences to themselves. The corollary to “Those who look for signs will find them everywhere” is “We see what we look for, and we look for what we know.” The latter clause is perhaps the antidote to the first since, if you don’t know much, you don’t see much.

              I’m a fan of Dillahunty too, and very much enjoy watching him take on the crazy callers to his show. I must confess that I am a huge fan of Sam Harris. His book “Waking up: Spirituality without Religion” makes a great deal of sense to me. The principles and practices of mindful awareness and mindfulness meditation do not violate reason or naturalistic/materialistic empiricism, and Harris makes no metaphysical or supernatural claims in discussing them. I also agree with his take on Islam (I assume this is what you meant when you wrote “Mormonism” above, which is a very funny mistake, since Joseph Smith’s Mormonism is completely wacky, and is slam-dunk crazier than Christianity. It is to the 19th century what LRH’s Scientology is to the 20th!). Harris prompted me to actually read the Quran, which is a much shorter book, and relative to its size, there is a lot more horrible stuff in there than there is in the old and new testament, the latter of which has a lot more positive that counterbalances its own horror (But I will say this, The Quran is beautiful to listen to! Check it: http://quran.com). Either way, all of those Abrahamic monotheisms are BS to me too, primarily because of their ridiculous claim that they are “sacred texts.” I could not agree more with you about wanting overwriting much of it. And if only people would recognize that they are completely man-made. One person who brings this point home very well is Bart Erhman, a major new testament scholar, who has allowed me to continue to learn and remain fascinated with the new testament from a historical and intellectual perspective. I bet that, being from a protestant tradition (which is where he started too, fundamentalist and all), you would really enjoy his lectures (here’s a brief 2 min snippet of his scholarship https://youtu.be/BR4NXfkI0jQ, but also go watch his highly engaging lecture about how the King James bible was put together).

              I do agree with you that Harris hangs on to things longer than he needs to. And he and he can be so off-putting in his approach that I occasionally find myself wincing. He has toned it down in his recent interviews with Maajid Nawaz, who I have nothing but respect for (so far). I just got their book in this week. From what I have learned about it prior to reading it, it is the best thing going with regard to any cultural rapprochement. Final point on Harris: I think that, if you were read his “response to controversies” posts at his website, you would likely come to see how spot-on rational and accurate he is. Or at least see why he is so convincing to someone like me.
              Well, I’ve again enjoyed constructing my own narrative, and reading yours, Mr. Clarke. Hope you enjoy all the suggested vids and reads I’ve sent your way! Cheers!

            • Edward Clarke

              Hey, Sir H. Thanks again! We share many of the same views, although the thing about the atheist community is there is a lot of disagreement even there. I like a lot of Harris and Ehrman, but have issues with both. I have to admit, I gave up on Waking Up, and I’m ashamed to say I can’t remember what got my goat, but I paused my reading, checked for reviews, and then one by Dennett hit upon a few things I had issues with (and I say that as a layman, without Dennett’s philosophy background). And I didn’t think much of Harris’s rebuttal. But I did also purchase his Vimeo video about the subject (which I reference unnamed when challenging the selling of the Getting Clear videos on the same platform). But I should get back to it, I haven’t written the book off completely. I got an audio version for my 2nd attempt, but when the listener had to participate (to meditate, etc), I was always on the move, so even that attempt stalled.

              I will say this, I read The End of Faith and could tell he came from a Jewish background with no knowledge that he had. Like me, he bears the scars of his general surroundings, but I don’t think he is quite so open about how it influences even the unbeliever. He *does* criticise Israel less than he should, imho. And his arguments about how we know what Israel would do to their enemies (because they are doing it), but not what the Palestinians would (but they claim they would destroy their enemy entirely, so let’s take them at their word) is just bad arguing that he should be beyond (and would be, imho, if he was, say, brought up a Protestant, but retained his intellectual inquisitiveness). It ignores human nature in general, and the history of Israel in particular. Does Harris not even consider that Israel’s support in the West is crucial to their survival, and that in terms of abuses they perpetrate, they are working right at the edge of that support? Sorry, I suppose I’ve gone a bit political here – it’s just an example of where I think Harris is badly misguided, with a little nudge to why I think his religious surroundings may have subtly guided him there. And if Harris can be swayed, anyone can!

              I’m aware of Bart Ehrmann through, if memory serves, a recommendation from Harris in The End of Faith. I greatly enjoyed his breakdown of Gospel inconsistencies, and I often bring up his example about Jesus entering Jerusalem in an ass in three gospels, but two asses in the fourth – which is a perfect distillation of everything that is transparently bogus in the books.

              However… I said my specialist interest was film. I would go further and say ‘storytelling’. Which, akin to something like strong scientific knowledge, turns out to be quite a tool for certain types of critical thinking (ie not opinions, but any situation where one side is accused of passing off a fiction as truth). Not only do I know the Gospels are all religious nonsense, I can actually see the story unfold as a piece of fiction very much of its time. I’ll paste something I emailed a cousin of mine: if the New Testament – (partially) true or false – was lost circa 100A.D., but suddenly found this year in the Middle East, by people who announced the discovery of a religious text, with only this info released: it’s 2000 years old, about a man who claimed to be the Messiah, and was executed. If, then, a ‘think tank’, who knew about ancient religions and classical literature from before 100A.D., were asked to just guess the full content of the book, have you any idea how close they would get? Virgin birth, born in a barn, via a star, visited by kings, early attempt to murder him, but then left to obscurity, 40 days in the desert, would turn water into wine, raise a man called Azur from the dead, have either 6 or 12 homies, would be betrayed by one of them for exactly 30 pieces of silver, whose name would be similar but not identical to ‘Brutus’, would be executed with two other people, one of which he would convert. Would come back to life three or four days later. Etc, etc.

              It is with this kinda thinking in mind that I’m entirely with Richard Carrier, who has a long spat with Ehrman about the historical Jesus issue (although the baby faced Carrier gets unnecessarily nasty too often). I agree with Carrier that 50 years from now, the notion of a historical Jesus will be gone for all except the hardcore believers. Even if the story was clothed around an actual figure – and for me the evidence strongly says it wasn’t – we are talking something like 3% accurate (name, dates, a couple of real contemporaries), 17% gross exaggeration and 80% hard fiction. Almost all fictional characters are closer to reality than that.

              Actually, if you want to see this kind of critical argument unfold in a non religious setting – with no one’s thetan at stake – but very highly academic, I stumbled upon an absolutely corker about a year ago. You may or may not be aware of it: The Shakespeare Authorship Question. An interest in Shakespeare certainly helps, but the whole crazy thing is hugely enlightening on debates in general and how the highly intelligent can hoodwink themselves and believe absolute claptrap.

              The gist of it is a growing belief that the works of William Shakespeare were written by someone else, the most common suspect now being the Earl of Oxford. There are highly learned professors arguing for something little better than UFO dross and it’s incredible to witness. You can actually gain a degree now in this very subject in England! (The University claim the degree is in the Authorship Question and thus you can gain the qualification by arguing that it *is* the man from Stratford. But their honorary doctorates are all loonies who have said the opposite which tells you everything you need to know).

              This all kicked off from the notion that a commoner could not have written such great work. Which is pretty short sighted to begin with. But we have someone like Derek Jacobi – no mug – saying he is over 99% certain Shakespeare was Edward DeVere, of whom we know: he died 10 years too early, was rubbish at writing plays, but happy to do so under his own name which invalidates the need for a pseudonym, and was a man who had no qualms about murdering his servants. Best of all, with a nod to ‘whose who look for signs’, is a deconstruction of Shakey’s Sonnets to find William unable to help himself but scream ‘I’m really Edward’ in half of them. Reading in that fashion could identify any character in history, such is that game. The arguments are at the level of a William Lane Craig or Ken Hamm.

              In reality, Shakespeare’s debut in the historical record is a stunning smoking gun, with a highly educated, and very jealous, contemporary playwright attacking him in print. Shakespeare’s status as a country bumpkin, and actor who has now taken up the quill with scant regard for the propriety of education, is clear for all to see. But for reasons that make my head spin, the argument rumbles on…

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              We do indeed share many of the same views. And interests. I have not read dennett’s review of Waking Up and harris’ rebuttal, but will (they disagreed about free will, and I’ve been meaning to read that correspondence too). And I’ve heard about the authorship question (seems like I recall reading somewhere that Francis Bacon might have been considered a suspect) but never checked into it. I’ll put that on the list as well. But poor Sam Harris, he’s really let Glenn greenwald get under his skin, which took me down the rabbit hole about him, and I learned yesterday that Greenwald has a long history of really pissing people off because of his outright lying and litigiousness. He has many surprising similarities to LRH. He might even have a few servants of his own buried in his Brazilian backyard.

            • Edward Clarke

              I’ve read Harris say he’s beyond exasperated by some of these people – half of them seem to be called Glen – but I’m not familiar with them (not public figures in the UK, although neither is Harris of course), and I suspect they’d drive me up the wall too. I’m amazed at the coverage Reza Aslan (sp?) gets, because I think his arguments are shockingly bad. In every interview he bigs up the greatness of Islam due to the fact that anyone can bring themselves to it with their own interpretation. This is a huge criticism, and I’d put it to him that without the book and a possible interpretation, no one would be flying planes into buildings. I’m sure leading Scientologists would have a field day with that one – that the creator of the universe has bad or vague ‘comms’.

              Yeah, Bacon and every other historical figure of the period, including Queen Elizabeth herself. Serious *cough* arguments tend to stick to Christopher Marlowe and Edward DeVere, the Earl of Oxford, both as preposterous as the other. Marlowe (murdered a few years after W.S. made his debut) cleared a path Shakey followed, right down to stealing some of his ideas, and a lot of these folk think it’s proof they are one and the same. But they don’t consider that a) if true, it means Marlowe wrote the same play twice (the ‘stolen’ idea version is far more plausible), and b) in almost every artform, it’s the 2nd wave that produces the best remembered / genius, whether it’s cubism, or bloody grunge. Sadly I haven’t seen the ‘reason’ side of the argument produce that last point yet.

              Like DNA proving evolution beyond any doubt, computers can now determine authors with absolute precision. Every writer, no matter how clever, leaves a trace. It’s quite something. The only surviving handwritten manuscript of a play from Shakespeare’s lifetime was examined. It seems many writers had a hand in it. Obviously, there was some excitement about the possibility Shakespeare was one of them, and we finally had some handwritten work. Three pages were consistent with his known signatures* (and scholars believed the quality was also consistent). [*I should add that as a non handwriting expert, I couldn’t see the similarity myself, but I’ll go with the professionals]The whole play (called Sir Thomas More) was typed into a computer, and it was asked to identify the author / authors from its vast database with no prejudice. It came back with: three pages, and three pages only, were definitely the work of one William Shakespeare. The ones that match his known handwriting. Utterly clinical. And brushed off by the doubters with the same ignorance of a Ken Hamm who is happily spending tens of millions of dollars to convince Americans man and dinosaur happily co-existed.

              If you just want to take it down a notch… have you heard of Mr Deity? It’s a web series which started about 10 years ago. With a white bearded former Mormom playing a not-too-bright God. It was a huge hit in the atheist community – Richard Dawkins recently guest starred in an episode. His co-stars left the show after a few years, and it went a little off the boil, but the first three or four seasons are comedy gold, and I think most of it is on YouTube.

              Where in the world are you, Sir H? (I’m in London)

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hello Mr. Clarke, long work week for me, and only had time for my morning bunker lurk. Thanks for the brief education about Bill and the forensic techniques used to analyze writing styles.

              Harris has gone quiet since his recent close-to-the-edge episode. I can tell you this with confidence: virtually every thing he says about his critics is accurate, especially Aslan and Glenn Greenwald, the latter of which is throughly dishonest and underhanded, if not outright sociopathic. If you wasted time looking into his background, it would not be difficult to find several reputable people speaking out about his attempts to ruin them, and there are suggestions that he is guilty of fraud or at least highly unethical behavior when he worked as an attorney. He appears to have all the marks of a David Miscavge-like character, and I think he would swiftly become full blown if he had more power.

              I recall watching the first episodes of Mr. Diety soon after they were posted to the net. Loved his bit with Dawkins, but have not watched any episodes recently. I’m sure you’re familiar with the Tweet of God. And as a Londoner, you must also be familiar with BoringTweeter. I’m in the states, but reluctant to localize further, although, as an adult, I have lived in numerous regions of the U.S. and also Europe for several years. Visited London for a month many years ago, a portion of that time in Teddington. Are you perchance from the states?

            • Edward Clarke

              I’m an avoider of social media almost entirely, so didn’t know about those Twitter accounts. I might have a look.

              I’m entirely British, although initially from somewhere other than London. I have to admit I’ve never even heard of Teddington!?! I have seen more of the USA though than any American I’ve ever met (although an American tourist over here likely sees more of the U.K. than I ever have – just how it goes). I’ve been to about half of the States.

              And there’s a huge cultural overlap of course. The biggest difference is now probably religion. It isn’t tolerated politically in Europe. In fact, from an outsiders point of view… I’m amazed at political divisions in America. The left/right battle is universal but in America I get the feeling that both sides think the other is insane and an evil in society. It just isn’t like that over here. And something like this from Marco Rubio would end his career forever in Europe: “God has blessed us. He’s blessed the Republican Party with some very good candidates.” This is CRAZY TALK. Not only is he bringing a fictional genocidal maniac into the debate, he’s saying he’s a Republican. And the icing on the cake is that the good candidates he’s talking about have made America something of a laughing stock abroad. It’s the sorriest group of candidates in history. The reputation of the USA is being harmed by that particular contest. Without any preference between the two parties, we are scratching our heads at how Rubio could say such a thing, how Trump can get away with a single utterance, how Huckabee can triumphantly lift the arm of Kim Davies like she just cured cancer… and I haven’t even mentioned Ted Cruz or Ben Carson, a man who comes across like he couldn’t get a job at McDonald’s never mind be a Dr. I don’t have a dog in that fight, I’m just saying that one side behave and talk in a way that is no longer acceptable in most of Europe. And with the possible exception of Trump, religion seems to be the biggest factor in their idiocy.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              I do not have a Facebook page, a Twitter account, or Instagram page and try my best to avoid social media, but alas I do check a few Twitter accounts regularly (you do not need an account to read someone’s tweets)’ which is largely a colossal waste of time. But carefully chosen, a few are excellent portals for cutting edge reasearch and ideas (Steven Pinker, for example).

              Regarding the cultural differences, the U.S.’s Puritan roots are deep, and hardly new (even de Tocqueville was struck by the number of churches and how enmeshed religion was in American political culture), but the in vs. out and demonization of the other seems to be worse. What I find most pernicious is the popularity of anti-scientific and anti-intellectualism, which the Conservative Republican party tends to especially pander to (although the liberal/democratic party has their own strain), and I throughly agree that religion is one of the primary, if not THE primary, root cause of the idiocy.

              This is a silly and ridiculous long shot, but I know someone who lives in London and somewhat fits your description (very British, not from there, well traveled), so I’ll give it a go: any chance you are from Nola?

            • Edward Clarke

              Nola? Again, never heard of it, although someone on here
              calls herself NolaGirl. I looked up Teddington – I know the surrounding area,
              but I’ve never heard that place mentioned once in my whole life!

              Just to be upfront – you’ll notice I’ve deleted my previous correspondence here
              (just for privacy reasons – you should still have it via email or Disqus) .This
              correspondence wont be part of it, don’t worry, but I’ll be doing something
              about the ‘anti-scientology community’ somewhere. I’ve given it a long time,
              but this community operates exactly as its Scientology counterpart would. The
              Bunker is by far the worst. Far more honest back-and-forth occurs elsewhere in
              the community, fortunately.

              Here, there is no analysis of anything, ever. It’s just all
              cheering against Scientology like a football game. Of course, they would come
              back with ‘So that makes Scientology all right them?’ or ‘You’re an OSA troll’ (both
              exact quotes made to me) – so they also have self-blinding tendencies, and
              divert every criticism immediately by changing the argument.

              As soon as you open your eyes to it, it seems the rot even
              on the right side of the fence is everywhere. It’s the side of the fence I’m
              on, but I don’t like seeing it. Many of the crusaders are hugely dishonest. I’m
              sure you don’t need convincing any more about me, but to say these things on
              here make you an OSA outcast.

              I actually post about hardly any of it that seems suspect to
              me. In today’s post, Tony mentions a few Achilles Heels in the Remini book, and
              thinks it wise to fix ‘em. But they are everywhere!

              To take just the last
              week’s Bunker posts…three examples. The Leah Remini Knowledge Reports – as I
              posted, the fact she had been given a refund of $300,000 hadn’t been mentioned
              before (but would have been known). Bizarrely, my detractors tried to prove
              Tony knew about it two years ago, but had withheld it ever since. Once again,
              the ‘other side’ of these arguments are oblivious to how they are making it
              worse. If I had been completely open, I would have also pointed out Tony’s
              little semantic dance, rather than use the word ‘refund’. [For those in the
              know, Remini’s refund actually does more bad than good for Scientology – it’s a
              horse they didn’t want to publicly bolt maybe – but that’s not the point]

              Jon Atack also put up a post that I thought was a load of
              old crap. But having been tipped about his trustworthiness, it all looks pretty
              blatant now. According to another well known former Sci, JA is still convinced
              in the reality of some very disturbing black arts that even Hubbard might have
              laughed at. But just to take him as a speaker – check out the first minute and
              a half of this baloney:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHXMWS9Wei4

              He describes religion at 1:10, then shows how LRH doesn’t match it.
              Unfortunately, the description he uses doesn’t match *any* religion in living
              memory, not even remotely, which makes this all just dishonest bullwack. This
              is the third strike against this particular warrior as far as I’m concerned.

              Yesterday’s Bunker post is from Mark Bunker. One of the
              Xenu-named message boards had a thread about him being on the take, continually
              fundraising with very dubious reasons. A day later, Bunker admitted his latest
              reason was no longer valid and offered refunds to all. Hmmm. Anyways, it didn’t
              last, a week later he’s on another Fund Me expedition. And if you read Tony’s
              post, he seems to be hedging with his word choices about Mark’s constant
              cash-grabs.

              This community could do worse than go online in search of
              criticism. I think there is a lite version of a Scientologist’s critical
              aversion going on in their web browsing. Some of the anti-anti-Scientology
              stuff out there is eye-popping. Both from Scientology and the places where this
              community dares criticise itself (other sites allow this). Scientology have
              said some things about ex-members which, if untrue, would yield payouts that
              would give them as big a headache as the IRS.

              I should also add that I took a lot of heat over criticising
              Alex Gibney / Paul Haggis. I’ve since read the book Going Clear. For anyone
              with a critical eye, the reasons for Haggis leaving Scientology are right there
              in the book. It has *nothing* to do with the reasons given in the film. I’ll be
              posting in more detail about that too. Unlike some, I don’t think you’d burst a
              blood vessel when I do, so I’ll send you a link when it happens.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hi Mr. Clarke, sorry for the delay. The Nola thing was indeed a long shot, but no harm in asking.

              While I definitely agree that the comment section has a strong cheerleading and group-think mentality (I’ve had run-ins with several commenters that were incredibly maddening because I realized that there was no point in attempting to correct the record or in reasoning any further because a) the commenter was blinded from reason by his hatred of Scientology and b) the community would not tolerate dissent, particularly because of one of these commenters popularity. I will not forget these individuals, one of whom for which I have lost all respect. However, one of the other commenters that I attempted to reason with was ultimately kicked off the site because he was not only irrational, but also vile and hateful. So while I fully understand your criticism of the community here, what I cannot agree to is your characterization of the bunker community as operating as “exactly as its Scientology counterpart would. “EXACTLY”?! Mr. Clarke, am I’m understanding you correctly, that you also think that the bunker community underground

            • Edward Clarke

              I don’t believe there is an open to all Scientology message board (for its fans). If there was, I believe it would operate like The Bunker.

              If I’m wrong, and that people have been critical of the content of Tony’s posts in the past (his posts, not necessarily him) in a serious fashion (claims of either lies, dishonesty or one-sidedness, say), and that such a thing generated debate and not a piranha like attack, then by all means point me in that direction.

              I haven’t seen it. And yes, some of the things I have said have generated some agreement. But I’m also not convinced that the people who agreed would have made the comment first. And, indeed, didn’t.

              This is a closed community, almost like a flip-side of the excellent Regraded Being. The comments also make it clear that many of the regulars consider it closed, and believe I should too.

              Also, you pull the word ‘worse’ out of nowhere, and then break that down for half of that post. Cheeky. I actually said explicitly otherwise. ‘Worse’ was comparing The Bunker to other anti Scientology sites, which was clear, and came with an example.

              But the bit in the middle of your post, after your intro about other Bunkerites, and before the misguided ‘worse’ stuff, makes some comments which, fortunately for us both, lie within the realm of provability.

              So if there are any examples of this, and enough to make them worthwhile, I will gladly take a look. Of course, this could be quite a time-consuming endeavour.

              Although I may post occasionally, I no longer read the comments section. But for the month and a half or so I did, I didn’t see anything like you speak of. And given the traffic, that would account for a not inconsiderable 100,000 comments alone. This seems like more than enough to form conclusions. And, again like I said, even after past experience, I gave it a bit longer, long enough, to convince me otherwise.

              And since the above post, even Tony got involved in a whopper. He repeated a story about how Tom Cruise refuses to answer questions in the way Marty Rathbun (one example used) never would. And yet, we don’t actually know what, if any, limitations Cruise puts on an interview – it’s all conjecture. But we *do* know the limits Rathbun does. Cruise is considered a Fail on this, despite the fact he hasn’t been tested (recently, he has previously invited questions on the matter). Rathbun got a pass, despite the fact he failed outright to pass this test, several times, in no uncertain terms, and on camera, even leading to verbal abuse of the journalist for asking. So the information being given is not only untrue, inaccurate, however you would like to characterise it… it is almost THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth. But in the Bunker, it flies.

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Just a quick response for now. Shoot, I DID misread part of your previous post. ‘Confirmation bias’ is such a difficult, if not impossible, cognitive distortion to regulate, and in this instance, it got the better of me. Not for the first time, and unfortunately it won’t be my last, but it eases (and paradoxically disturbs) my mind that I am not alone in such distortions, because they are so deeply engrained in the cognitive structure of our species. Again, sorry about that. More later.

            • Edward Clarke

              From today’s Bunker post, headline (in bold) then content:

              “Darth Xander wins in Clearwater

              Back in September, we told you that Alex ‘Darth Xander’ Hageli, an Illinois attorney, had filed a motion in Clearwater, Florida seeking to get the infamous Lisa McPherson Trust permanent injunction dissolved.”

              Now, without reading any further… take a wild guess about whether or not that injunction was dissolved… and then read on and wonder about that headline.

            • Edward Clarke

              Remember I said I thought Richard Dawkins, despite his reputation, still bore the scars of being a brainwashed Christian…

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3330239/Even-Richard-Dawkins-thinks-Lord-s-Prayer-screened-cinemas-Church-s-banned-video-receives-unlikely-backing-atheist.html

              …this is a big story in Britain right now. Dawkins misses the point completely that cinemas don’t allow religious or political adverts, no matter what the cause.
              And there is no way in hell he would have said this if it had been a Muslim ad that was banned. I got the heads-up on Dawkins ‘confusion’ when he debated the former Archbishop of Canterbury – the head of the UK Church (after the Queen I suppose). And it was clear he was not debating with the same rigour as he usually did. In fact, I would have described the bias he was showing towards the head of ‘his’ church – a non-believer though he claims to be – to be bordering on shameful.
              As is the above. Dawkins wilfully misinterprets the statement regarding the ‘censorship’ which references ‘offence’ – but this is only a blanket word to cover the avoidance of ALL religious and political adverts in cinemas. Not to mention, you DO have the right to be offended at that advert, and that prayer in general (the ad can be viewed online). You could write a book about the amount of offensive remarks made in it. Indeed, I’m sure Sam Harris would have a field day with it.

        • Robert Eckert

          “DDD claimed I was editing my comments to make his responses look stupid. He just made it up. ” Liar.

          “he started to post screengrabs of unedited posts of mine” He started to screengrab you after you added a second paragraph to your previous post. His post of the screengrab specifically said that the second paragraph was added after the reply to it.

          “I don’t have to don a deer stalker hat and pipe to take a good guess at who it likely was.” None of us have any doubts about who it was.

          • Edward Clarke

            Prove it then? Emails are sent, Disq notices are sent. (Not that these things couldn’t be manipulated).
            Hemade it up, and you bought it.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, he didn’t. I am always here watching.

            • Edward Clarke

              Robert, all you’ve done is shout SP at the cheerleaders. You need to get out from under this train of thought.
              I’ve said it’s a fiction. Let a moderator investigate, then we’ll know.

            • Miss Tia

              i’m available to investigate! (F5)

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              That really ought to be your Avi.

            • Miss Tia

              I try to have uniform user icons all over—have the same one on all my social media accounts…..someone made me that a few years ago when i was investigating trolls on another site…. 🙂 it’s a fun pix to toss out every once in awhile and this occasion was perfect!

            • Edward Clarke

              It just says F5 on my PC. So I’m guessing its a gag, and not an offer.
              Seriously, someone should be able to do a quick check, and its game over. I have evidence of the first thing. Infact I will edit this post as a test.

            • Miss Tia

              F5 means refresh….it’s a pix of me showing i’m serious about investigating….

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Now I am getting concerned. Is an actual disappearing act in the cards???

            • Edward Clarke

              Ive just checked. The comment was made directly to DDD. He has it on his Disq notifs, as do I, he would also have ben sent an email (as far as I knew). Even with access to photo manipulation tools, he hasn’t produced it all week.

            • Miss Tia

              not everyone has email notifications on for disqus…..that proves nada…..try again….or not….

            • Edward Clarke

              Tia, don’t join the mob with no evidence. Your posts suggest you should be above it.

            • Edward Clarke

              I haven’t made one single pro-Scientology post.

            • Robert Eckert

              You haven’t made one non-trolling post. You stir shit, and do nothing else.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You have a hard-on for Haggis.. You’re a dog with a bone in trying to denigrate Going Clear.. If you don’t want to be judged a troll, stop acting like one.. Make your point and move along, little doggie..

            • Edward Clarke

              I said the film was good but not Oscar worthy. I was asked to explain why. Then told, incorrectly, that my comments on Haggis in the film were incorrect. They were not, as I explained in detail.

              If this is trolling… anyway, I’m now leaving the house, so you have free reign for the rest of the day…

            • sugarplumfairy

              Well, soon we’ll see if the academy agrees with you.. Obviously the majority here does not.. If you’re not a troll, stop worrying about what everybody else thinks.. Opine and then opine again, like the rest of us do..

            • Miss Tia

              i was unaware there was a mob……is there a don? do we have to kiss a ring? i won’t kiss a ring! no way!!

            • Edward Clarke

              Read the comments around you…. I’d call it a mob.
              I think this is how Marty Rathbun felt.

            • Sergeant Pepper

              What would you call it if they all agreed with you?

            • Miss Tia

              we all have cameras on our head? someone sent you a dildo at your place of work? there’s cameras outside your home 24/7? wh-wh-WHAT?!

            • Always Amazed

              MARTY? Is that you?

              You are amazing Edward.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              (Well, you could at least take down your old Christmas lights. I’m just sayin’…)

            • Miss Tia

              ahem, they’re ‘seasonal’ lights…..all seasons celebrated all year!

            • Sergeant Pepper

              It’s decorative gourd season! Are you ready to reap this freaky harvest!? Thanks DDD! Now back to Nora’s video/

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I have to remember that one when I am removing our rotting pumpkins just before Thanksgiving…!

            • Miss Tia

              the rotting pumpkins are a symbol of how the Native Americans were forced from their land and in many cases ‘left to rot’……(that was an off the cuff reason for leaving them out…..i could think of another more in depth)….

              surprised squirrels don’t eat ’em!! i’ll buy pumpkins at the store and slice ’em up and put ’em out back for the squirrels….they love ’em!

            • Always Amazed

              Psst DDD… MT is one of those??

            • Miss Tia

              Pssst I can say that right now I have no lights out, only 2 halloween signs on my side door. I HAVE in the past had lights up and all year decorations though—-mostly to piss off my neighbor from hell…..

            • Always Amazed

              Hahaha… You might be helpful, how exactly should my “friend” handle the neighbor from hell who’s keeps their Christmas lights on year round?

            • Miss Tia

              keeps them on the house or ON as in lit? and if it’s just on the house, are they small bulbs, little bulbs, or big display items?

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              What am I missing here? Email notifications that others can check out?

              Lunatic is my final word, and I’m stickin’ to it.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I haven’t made one single pro-Scientology post.

              DING DING DING DING DING!

              We have a winner! There’s all you need to know. Though methinks the lady doth protest too much, it’s all right.

            • Robert Eckert

              Not A Scientologist Butt

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              (Have you misplaced a comma? Inquiring minds want to know.)

            • SuppressedPerson

              That’s all the rage in the cult. Even people who know are Scientology are insisting they are not, but just really knowledgeable about it. You know, like most people. NOT.

              Shilling has never been so bloody transparent.

              “I’m not a Scientologist BUTT… All my Scientology friends are so uptone and theta!” Yeah, right.

            • Edward Clarke

              I’m more knowledgeable than most, but not in here.
              I’ve picked up more in the last week from the Regraded Being (thanks to Mike Rinder’s blog) cartoon than I have in any of the books, especially on procedures and terms. ‘Entheta’ appears in it constantly, I don’t recall reading it in any of the recent books.

            • OSA, OSA
              How many lies
              Did you tell today?

        • Miss Tia

          cool story bro…

          thanks again DDD!!

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Wow. A perfect exemplar of the distorted thinking of someone imprisoned by their own mind as a result of Scientology training. Excellent demonstration of the inability to see the forest for the trees by focusing on relatively trivial details and inaccuracies, and complete defensiveness and inability to acknowledge any of the more important truths. These are only two examples. But clearly, sir clarke, you are The Master.

    • Robert Eckert

      His first appearance was already suspicious:

      • Sandy

        Sure had me fooled at first, didn’t he?

        • Sherbet

          He was one of those posters who keep getting stuck in the same groove and never come to a point. Should have been a red flag for me, but I just ignored him after awhile and didn’t realize he was digging in.

        • Robert Eckert

          ‘sOK. People here are kind-hearted by nature and want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Just a while back I had to relive one of the moments I’m not so proud of, when I stood up for 26 and was angry at Howdy for (correctly) calling her a sock-puppeting troll.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          I was more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But then, my inclination is always to meet people where they are. I’m… polite that way.

    • SuppressedPerson

      From my standpoint, it appears that OSA has stepped up their marching orders to heckle, pester, divide and just be a general nuisance. This may be S.O.P., but it seems as if they’re even worse than “normal”.

      Definitely more Twitter activity particularly aimed at anyone mentioning ADHA and autism. They don’t get anywhere with normal people, but they make friends among the anti-vaxers and other extremist nuts. It’s a different plan of attack than going after people who mention Scientology directly.

      These aren’t the “fun to play with” trolls. They have a sick agenda.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Argh! Gotta take the lovely Mrs. D shopping. I shall return after this latest “disappearing act.”

      • Miss Tia

        Enjoy your trip!! We’ll hold the fort! 😉

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          I’m back. Just finished Nora’s video. This all seems so… insignificant by comparison, doesn’t it?

          • Miss Tia

            yes it does!!

    • sugarplumfairy

      It doesn’t matter to me if a poster is pro-co$ or anti-co$.. What matters is his comment.. I don’t know if any particular poster is a former scientologist, a declared SP, a never-in like me who just wants to see the scam end, an OSA operative trying to disrupt the community here or a run-of-the-mill internet troll looking for attention..

      It makes no difference anyway.. Only his comment matters.. If I disagree with that, I’ll respond.. If he keeps trying to engage and piss off, I’ll disengage..

      I might have gut feelings about where a poster is coming from, but the fact is, I don’t know for sure so I try not to judge.. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work because I’m ridiculously judgmental.. But intellectually, I know this is an open forum, which I adore, and anybody can post whatever they want, whether it pisses me off or not..

      That being said, one of the things I truly love about this place is how savvy everyone here is about scientology behaviors and strategies.. it’s pretty fun watching someone try to get something past this group..

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Thanks for that. You have articulated my approach here as well. What i usually say is this: I try to meet people where they are.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Yes, you do.. I’ve come to respect you a lot, 3D..

      • stillgrace2

        Just for the record, I had a hearty, Howdy, ding-ding-ding on the Edward dude.

        • sugarplumfairy

          You and Howdy were the A team..

          Btw, 3 days ago, people were asking about you, saying they missed you.. I agreed and said that you always show up when we need you..

          And we always need you..

          • stillgrace2

            Thank you for sharing that! I do miss you guys since I went back to “full-time plus” work. However, I continue my personal fight against the criminal outfit and all its evil manifestations. I hang here whenever I can and catch up!

  • Sherbet

    My church — which is not known for a liberal outlook At All — has, in my parish, a same-sex married couple who usher at Mass and also who take Communion. Nobody preaches against them, nobody turns them away, nobody moves to a different pew. They’re part of the parish, and the only way we know they’re married is that they were feted in the local newspaper when they tied the legal knot. I know the Bunker isn’t a comparative study of religions, but here’s Nora crying because she felt less of a person for years in that hypocritical “ethical religion” with Hubbard’s judgmental fingerprints all over it; and here’s my insular, ancient church — at least my parish — embracing everybody, headed by a man who said, “Who am I to judge?”

  • DefinitelyNotMe

    Dear Queen Nora:

    What you experienced is a 100% official hate crime. It is a criminal act. It is nothing less than that and so much more.

    Scientology hates:
    Gays, lesbians, heterosexuals, transgenders, wimmen, def ALL wimmen, males, blacks, Asians, Mexicans, name-your-minority, doctors, psychiatrists, teachers, scientists, reporters, authors, actors (behind their backs),
    forensic accountants, IRS investigators, parents, son, daughters, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, law enforcement officers (not on their payroll), private investigators (not on their payroll), judges, charity workers (real ones), community volunteers (real ones), bankers, pharmacists, pets, and everyone else not on this list.

    Sixty years of hate crimes all tax free and no one in prison or even fined.Yet.

    Oh, they also hate toilet paper. btw, you have mail. Brava brave one. It Does get better;)

    http://imgur.com/XjyUqaW

  • Kim Palmer

    Nora you are such a brave woman. I send you a hug and a huge thumbs up for coming out the other side after all scientology put you through. As the mother of a gay child I know how hard it is for a young person to deal with all the issues that can arise when they understand they are gay. My child suffered greatly because they thought they would be tossed out of the family because my husband was an ordained minister. When a suicide attempt was made I visited in the hospital and my child said “Mom, I am gay” while crying – my only response was to hug her and say OK still love you and always will – that love is unconditional – my husband came in and hugged our child and said I will always love you no matter what. Acceptance from parents made this child’s life easier after that even when relatives reacted badly and made nasty comments – we had this child’s back – and stood up against anyone who would denigrate our child simply because they were gay. I wish this for ALL children who are gay and sadly it is religion that often gets in the way – love your child unconditionally and accept them for who they are and if your religion says otherwise get rid of the religion not your child.

    • Sherbet

      Beautiful, Kim.

    • Ella Raitch

      Your child is lucky to have you Kim.

  • Mark

    Refresh:

    • Sherbet

      Scientology is the pot of bullsh** at the end of the rainbow. I’m feeling such a sense of pride in everyone today.

    • Mockingbird

      Awesome and stolen ! This is great for a post on the persecution of gay people in Scientology !

      • Mark

        Good!

      • Ella Raitch

        and tweetable

  • Tree

    Nora, a thousand thanks, you are a brave and wonderful woman. You outclass everyone in that crappy cult! It was emotional for me to watch and I cried right along with you. The stance on homosexuality was the tipping point for me. I discussed then argued, then tried to leave. It got physical. I got out and never went back.

  • SuppressedPerson

    Mind blowing video from Nora. Thank you so much! I wish you continued healing!

  • Sherbet

    When you think of it, to whom one is attracted, or with whom one goes to bed, is just one single facet of a person. Why should it define the whole person in scientology or any religion or in life? It’s like discriminating against a person who has an outtie instead of an innie bellybutton. This is how we’re made, individual and unique. What on earth does it matter to anybody else? Hand me a rainbow. I’m going people pride. Everyone. (Except trolls.)

    • Jimmy3

      I don’t discriminate against gays. I really don’t care who anyone wants to sleep with. But if you have an outtie bellybutton, please don’t even come near me. That shit is creepy.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I had an outtie…and was always self conscious about it. Prior to a hernia procedure, the doctor told me he could take care of that while slicing me up. Yes, please!

        • Sherbet

          And now you have lint… OK, poor analogy in my post, but I’m not going to change it.

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Not poor at all. It illuminates how stupid the sexual orientation argument really is.

        • Jimmy3

          I knew there was something off about you. I could never tell what it was. Now I know. You were an outtie.

        • Robert Eckert

          So you came in?

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Sure did.

            • Sherbet

              I’m thinking Little Anthony and the Imperials: “I had an outtie, now it’s in.”

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              I’m thinking that reference is too old for me to understand.

            • Sherbet

              Oh (the old lady says). The song is “I’m on the Outside Looking In.” Sorry, youngster.

            • SuppressedPerson

              Quite good. Love Little Anthony & got to see him in the 1980s.

            • Sherbet

              Neat! And thanks for getting the joke.

      • Sherbet

        I checked with Kirstie Alley, and she said to call you a bigot.

      • TexasBroad

        Pppffffpt! I out as an outtie! Outtie proud!

        • Jimmy3

          I’m just kidding, of course. But I would appreciate it if you had a travel-sized bottle of Purell at your ready if we ever meet.

          • Jimmy3

            Because I am not quite sure if outties are contagious or not.

      • Illinoisian

        The Belly Button Biodiversity Project

        http://navels.yourwildlife.org/bbb-project/

      • Draco

        I am naturally in Innie, but when I was pregnant I became an outtie for a few months. Does that make me bi-navel?

    • Susie Serve

      Rainbow, the iris of the eye and symbol of the unity within diversity and acceptance of what is perceived both inside and outside of the self, this very unity, oneness. One of our most primal centers of healing, as in ” physician, heal thyself” – and then…

      Your very articulation reaches everyone who is looking for what you can offer. Nora Crest, what a lioness of courage directly from your heart, resonating, with the tears raining from your eyes Thank you just doesn’t feel like enough.

  • Robert Eckert

    Since they like superhero costumes so much:

    • Sherbet

      Rainbow Man sure is buff.

      • Robert Eckert

        Hangs out in the gym a lot, I’d guess.

  • PlanetJ

    I love listening to you speak Nora! I know you are helping so many young people out there (and old)..at least the ones that can sneak on the internet..and even the ones where this happens to them outside the “church”. Thank you for speaking your mind and not being scared to do it..you are a true warrior…a Joan of Ark! xoxo

  • Oh Sunny, I am so sorry. I had 6 pages of goldenrod just like that. It disappeared. I think I finally just threw it all away because it fucking pissed me off to all hell every time I saw it. Nora, i share the same commiseration with you too. No matter what sexual orientation or gender you are, it’s all natural and its a-olay, no matter what the ass backwards douchebags of Scientology and the bible belly might say about us. I hope you both know that note.. From someone who went through a similar executives, I’m so sorry. No one should ever have to endure it. No go kids all the girls and have fun :-*

    • Derek!!!!! I heart you hard buddy.

    • SuppressedPerson

      The SP declares and all their golden rod drivel is all garbage accusations; all rubbish. If you weren’t gay, they’d make something else up. Some niggly, nonsense that means nothing.

      Hardly freedom! They just want to bash you down for more control.

      Applause for you, Nora and the others who ball it up and throw these “church” documents in their stupid, brainwashed faces.

      No one deserves to be demeaned by these creeps. Scientology freedom means getting away from them! <3

  • anoni81b4u

    ot
    is david miscavige still short ?

    • SuppressedPerson

      Maybe he can get that surgery that extends the legs of people who were born as little people.

      Of course, when it comes time for him to flee the cult and go off to his obscure private island, it will make it difficult for him to run during the healing phase. He knows touch assists are useless.

      • anoni81b4u

        like this

        • SuppressedPerson

          Perhaps he can develop a shrink ray to knock all his sea org and staff & other slavering sycophants down to size. “Hey, step into the OTX beam!” “Of course, Sir!”

          Incredible Shrinking Man, The Devil Doll & Land of the Giants style. Seems like a good project for a super villain like Miscavige.

      • Libertylover

        I kind of see him going off lines and setting up shop on the Freewinds a la Hubs. Then one day he will just disappear when the heat really is on.
        David, if you’re reading this, I’ve said this before, you may not have as much time as you think, find the gold and run before the FBI kicks your door down, you won’t like the Fed pen.

    • Chee Chalker

      I’m surprised he allowed this photo to be taken……normally a giant gaudy trophy stands between him and the non-midges.

    • Chee Chalker

      This makes me want to put him in my pocket…

      • Hey Kids! Pocket Putzes™! Collect ’em all!

        • Always Amazed

          Hi Art! Great to see you.

    • His shoes don’t seem so long as other shots of him alone at the podium.

  • Always Amazed

    her·o·ine/ˈherəwən/
    noun

    A woman admired or idealized for her courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

  • Sometimes, I forget that this topic is how I got into the critic business in the first place. I was barely affected by it, I can only imagine how Derek and countless others have had to rebuild their lives. As I posted over at Das Rinderblog . . .

    I don’t post here much, but I read Mike’s blog daily and have watched in awe as someone I once knee-jerk despised has morphed over the life of this blog into someone I genuinely respect and like. I cannot emphasize enough that it wasn’t just Mike who had to change for this to happen. But that’s another story. This long-ass post is about Hubbs and homosexuality.

    I know we’ve been over this topic again and again in the critic community, but for me, I realized it was what got me into this battle with Hubbard’s con in the first place. As a young, gay man in 1978, freshly out to my very accepting family, I was dating a boy we’ll call Jim. He was my age (18) and my parents really liked him. He would hang out with us constantly and never really talked about his family in depth or asked me to come to his home (he still lived with his parents and sister). We dated for a few months and I wondered, as you do when you’re 18, if Jim was “the one.” I was taking a year off between high school and college to work and save money for a summer in Europe, so I came home from work one day and my parents were agitated. My dad asked me to listen to a phone message they’d received from “my little friend.” Whenever my dad referred to any of my friends thusly, they’d usually done something to earn his ire.

    The phone message was so weird, I had to listen to it twice to make sure I heard it correctly. Here was my boyfriend, who had spent many a night at our place, telling my parents that I was “very sick,” that in fact our whole family was sick and that it was because I was a homosexual. He continued that only Scientology could help us and that it would “be a shame if this got into the media.”

    Waitwhat?

    Huh?

    Now, this was 1978. What was he going to do, put an ad in the Penny Saver? Needless to say, I felt like I’d been hit in the gut with a baseball bat. I tried calling him. No answer. No phone machine. Nada.

    I tried for another week. Nothing. I tried our yoga class we went to. Gone. He wasn’t in my circle of high school and theater friends so they couldn’t be of any help. Now, in those days, Jim and I were very into metaphysics and spirituality, but there was never a mention of Hubbard or Scientology. So, being rather in the dark about the church, I bought a copy of Dianetics to see what the hell was going on. Besides being impenetrably dull word-salad, I found that it was impenetrably-dull, homophobic word salad (among other ridiculous things) and a life-long critic was born.

    Fast-forward five years (1983), and I run into Jim and his date at a party. He looked like a deer in the car headlights when he saw me. As I approached, he hung his head. I couldn’t tell if he was laughing or crying. Long story short, he told me that his parents had found a letter I had written to him. He had been totally closeted to his Scientologist parents. They stood over him with the local mission holder in attendance, and told him what to say into the answering machine that day ten years before. I was gobsmacked and mostly felt sorry for him. He was never really in the church. He told me his father and mother divorced, she blew and the dad stayed in for a while and quietly left.

    At the time I reconnected with Jim, I had moved back to my hometown of San Francisco and worked in a bookstore in the Castro district. Whenever anybody brought a copy of Dianetics up to the counter, I’d have them read a copy I kept below the register with all the crazy, homophobic crap highlighted and bookmarked. They’d stand to the side and I’d watch their faces as they read. In the two years I worked there the reactions varied from laughter to rage, but nobody ever bought a single copy after reading that cray-cray.

    Thanks Mike, for all you do. It can’t have been an easy journey, even once you were free of the church. May you reconnect with your children someday soon. And to the rest of our far-flung, disparate community, every story matters. Keep talking.

    Like I said over there, keep telling your stories. Keep talking.

    • Always Amazed

      Amazing story art, thank you for sharing.

    • Mark Foster

      Artoo 45,via this blog, I found your writing, which is amazing and engrossing and hilarious. Thanks for sharing your story here!

      • jazzlover

        Can you share the link?

        • Draco

          Here ya go: http://www.allmestup.blogspot.co.za/
          Start at chapter 1 – it is clever and funny and very well-written. And I am still waiting for Artoo to finish the story…

          • DefinitelyNotMe

            Is there an email, Artoo?

          • jazzlover

            Thank you, Draco. I could figure out that Artoo was in the biz, as they say. I could just never tell if he was an actor, a director , a producer, a gaffer, a grip, a boom operator, a camera man, a screenwriter, or anything else in that general area. LOL

            • Draco

              You are welcome, jasslover. I found the link for chapter 1: http://allmestup.blogspot.co.za/2014/01/lrh-target-2-chronicles-chapter-1-mrs.html

              I would love to see this published in book form. I think it would sell like mad. Artoo seems like a busy person, though, so I just wait patiently (or not so patiently) for the next chapter. Don’t be put off reading it because the story is not yet finished, though. It is brilliant in a lot of ways.

            • jazzlover

              I’m sure it is! I look forward to reading.

        • Mark Foster

          allmestup.blogspot.com

          • jazzlover

            Thank you too, Mark!

        • Robert Eckert
          • jazzlover

            Thanks, Robert. Draco had already shared. But I appreciate your doing so as well 🙂

      • Thank you Mark. I’m gonna finish that thing someday!

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          Please do!

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      That story is crazy and sad. I hope Jim was able to get his head together and lead a happy and healthy life. Thanks for adding your voice to the mix, Artoo!

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      You are a class act Artoo. Respect.

    • jazzlover

      Bravo!

    • BraveBloggers

      What a remarkable memory to share. I have so much respect for what you did at the bookstore and your ability to forgive and then respect Rinder. Yet another example of class acts on this board who are simply everyday people trying to live their life as they are entitled to, and who have endured and triumphed over obstacles that no one should have to experience. And further proof (as if more was needed) that one doesn’t have to be a member of a source of pain in order to have to face/deal with the repercussions of that source. Talk about a domino effect. Thank you for sharing your insightful experience.

    • Saint

      You are amazing. I wish someone would take your Castro District Bookstore Guerrilla warfare approach and assist some NOI-COS followers in Harlem. /excuse me while I rage laugh to the What’s the Matter with You Hat youtube video (with subtitles)/

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Wow Artoo. What an intense story, I remember you told it but in less detail when we went to see Going Clear. What a sick cult.

      Give my love to Butch Pansy!

      • Thanks for your kind words, Free! Will pass on the love, and Send our very best to you, too.

  • beauty for ashes

    Standing O Nora!!!!!!!!!!
    Barely through my first cup of coffee and easily distractable, **is that a cat in the backround?. did its tail did it just move?****
    You managed to capture my full attention, clamp onto my heart and stay there. In fact you spoke so truthfully and from your heart, my heart said, okay we are going to build a little room for her especially, because she is awesome, and beautiful, and courageous, and I want to her as an example of woman.
    So (f5) click the heart for Nora <3 <3 <3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      Holy moly, I may need to borrow that second image at some point. I love it!

      • beauty for ashes

        If it makes you happy, it makes me happy! Steal away!

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          Aw, thx!

      • daisy

        I love this picture. I tried to make it my avatar, but it didn’t shrink well. I have other ideas for it.

    • BraveBloggers

      Love the 2nd pic.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    I was just doing my business and realized that the proprietor of the establishment had provided the best, softest Thetan Paper I’ve ever used.

  • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

    Ebner has shared Nora’s video on twitter and tagged Prepon. Oh please oh please oh please let her minions try to rally! I could use the entertainment today.

    https://twitter.com/MarkEbner59/status/653243124496510976

  • Edward Berwick

    calling every year, every org, every franchise, every mission: “Scientology,” is a disservice to historical accuracy.
    In the 1960s and 1970s, no one I ever met in the San Francisco Bay Area Scientology world was homophobic. It was not a big deal. No one was discriminated against, or treated “differently.” – that I personally knew.
    I am not going to name names, but I certainly can. This scientological bigotry was probably elsewhere and later. There is no sense tarring all of us for others’ stupidity, ignorance, and evil.

    • Mark Foster

      It´s policy. Glad that there were some people who ignored it, but…The attitude towards sex is hard-wired into the ¨philosophy¨ : in ethics ¨tech¨, in auditing ¨tech¨ , in the tone scale…Those are core elements of scientology. So, yeah, broseph, scientology is homophobic.

    • Jimmy3

      You’re about 76 trillion years too late to be pulling out the historical inaccuracy card.

    • My parents were in San Francisco in the 70’s. They tell the same story. With one exception, Doug Knopson who gave a staff member a 2 week deadline to stop being gay or he would be declared.

      • “Yeah, I quit cold-turkey. It was hard at first, and occasionally I had some cravings, but I’m totally done with that.”

      • Jimmy3

        Well, that’s quite generous of them. Hey, you have two weeks to change everything about yourself.

      • jazzlover

        Jeez, everyone knows that at least 3 weeks are needed for that 😉

        • Draco

          Exactly! What was he thinking? I hope the guy did an “Orders, Querie of”

          • jazzlover

            LOL. I’d hope for much worse, but am too much of a gentleman to mention it here 😉

          • Draco

            Oy – Query…
            It’s late, I’m in the middle of a heatwave and possibly suffering from heat stroke.

            • Robert Eckert

              A Queerie of Orders?

      • I just thought – If I was required, on pain of death, to stop being heterosexual how on Earth would I go about it. It’s simply not possible because it’s not under my control. It’s something I am, not something I do.

        I image the same goes for gay people. The idea that you can change your sexual orientation by an act of will is simplistic and incoherent (like most Scientology doctrine).

        • salin

          I think that in Scientology, part of the methods are suppressing everything individual – ‘pulling it in’ – done in the name of pursuing higher mental capacity by the recipe that Hubbard left. In reality the end result is training people to submerge their individual personalities and characteristics to be replaced by behaviors valued by Hubbard. In that light, ordering someone to change something so core to who they are, probably seems like a reasonable request – ala “get back in line!” Ignorant as hell, of course, but consistent with what I understand about Scientology.

          eta: (meant to write:) ignorant *and cruel/degrading* as hell…

          • True – and Hubbard chose the personality traits that ‘needed’ changing quite arbitrarily, on the basis of his experience as a narrow-minded bigot.

            • salin

              a narrow-minded, sadistic, narcissistic bigot.

        • Libertylover

          When Sasha Baron Cohen was playing his character Brüno Gehard, he was chatting to a gay deprogrammer who insisted gay was a choice. He then asked him when did you chose to be straight. Best look of confusion ever. I love the stuff SBC did, he was fearless sometimes. He almost got beat up and feared for his life when he did the Ultimate fighter gag.

          • I never saw that, but I can imagine it happening. Cohen certainly was fearless.

            The only person I ever saw get the better of him ( in an ‘interview’ with his Ali G persona) was the British politician Anthony Wedgwood Benn.

            Benn sailed obliviously through all the gags and delivered a passionate defence of democracy. It’s the only time I ever saw Cohen nearly break character and laugh at his own failure. I rather admired him for that, too.

            • Libertylover

              Benn was really good in that, wasn’t he? I always liked how Buzz Aldrin handled him too.
              Here is the clip, it’s not quite how I remembered it but still funny as hell.
              Edit I think that line was in a differnt skit, perhaps the Christian rock group.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazrAzBP_0I

            • People like the ‘Pastor’ don’t get a fraction of the ridicule that they deserve. Cohen makes up a lifetime, here.

    • Donna Cline Sargent

      Do you know Edward Clarke ?

    • nottrue

    • sugarplumfairy

      I’m so confused.. What did you just say?

    • Bob

      Yes there were many scientologist that ignored the prejudice, however it was always there and eventually the toxic policies, bias and practices won out. And I too have experiences with that. Ultimately at best it ended in the person leaving at worst, death.

    • salin

      I don’t understand that first sentence. If not ‘Scientology’, what should those entities be called?

      • Jimmy3

        I think what he’s saying in that sentence is that the current Church of Scientology shouldn’t be confused with Scientology as a general practice. Many indies make this same argument. They insist on it, even. To someone who was never involved, like myself, it’s hard to see how it wasn’t a blatant scam from the start. But many who were in do draw a distinction between today’s CoS and what they believe Hubbard was actually preaching.

        But, again, every bit of it was a scam from the start. Wake up.

        • salin

          Thanks Jimmy3. That makes sense.

        • Draco

          I agree with you Jimmy. This shit in in Dianetics – first book he wrote.
          You have to bear in mind that most scientologists never read the damn thing. I only managed to read it after 30 years of being in. And that was because I was doing it on a course. With a supervisor making sure I got through it.
          But I don’t believe any scilon could not be aware of the homophobic nature of CoS. It was always there.

        • Mareka Backus James Brousseau

          What’s funny to me is all the different sects of Scientology. The Freezoners are different to the Indies who are different from the C of S (kinda ? some are quite as fanatical if you ask me) but then there are those that believe in the “tech” but not LRH because he wasn’t source and stole it from someone else lol.

          It makes me laugh because KSW I was written to stop Scientologists from breaking away and squirreling and there are now more squirrels than ever and more types of Scientology than ever before.

          How’s Keeping Scientology Working Series I working out for you now. Scientology?

      • Robert Eckert

        They should be called No True Scotsmen

    • beauty for ashes

      Ohh, so the Movie “Milk” is historically inaccurate? Crap, I love that movie. I thought it was true. ;(

    • Did they not see the homophobic, racist and misogynist passages in Hubbard’s books and wonder if they should be members of an organisation that was controlled by such a man?

      I know that many of these passages have subsequently been edited out of Hubbards ‘unchangeable’ holy writ – but they were still there in the ’60’s and ’70s and Scientologists were required to read them. They have could have missed them.

      What about the passage where he recommends disposing of inconvenient people “quietly and without sorrow”? Perhaps you never met anyone who had committed genocide – but this not mean that it is ethical to belong to an organisation whose leader advocates it.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      I would be inclined to think this was part of the ol’ Scientology bait ‘n switch. It’s hard wired into the Tech to lie whenever convenient to get bodies into the shop. So in SanFran it was a good thing to be not-homophobic. Later all that ickiness can be audited out, once the fly is securely pinioned in the web.

      Did it ever occur to you that the “every year, every org, every franchise, every mission” that was not “Scientology” were the ones that were there in SanFran, accommodating all that 1.1 perversion?

  • Mark

    Now that the flat denial tactic’s been exposed as mendacious tosh, I wonder what the cherch’s new rationalisation for its rampant homophobia will be? That it’s harking back nostalgically to an earlier, more innocent era, perhaps? Yeah… (Refresh by sprinkling lavender-water on your hanky):

    • stillgrace2

      I upvoted you for the generous lips on the midget and the delicious “mendacious tosh”.

      • Mark

        The lips are Judy’s own 😉

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          And Judy’e ear, too, I’ll betcha. Cute as a bug’s ear. Or so they say.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Still!!! Yay!!!

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I upvoted you because you posted.

      • villagedianne

        I thought you said “mendacious tush.”

    • Draco

      And this just goes to prove that putting lipstick on a pig does not change the fact that it remains a pig.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      You can’t turn the lights too low on the one on the top, but the one on the bottom is kinda cute…

  • Ronn S.

    Astounding video Nora Beth Crest. Wonderfully spoken, obviously sincere and pointedly alarming on many levels. I have to admit I shared a tear with you near the end.

  • Mike Leopold

    Nora,
    You have more love and support around you than you can possibly imagine.
    You have such courage and honesty!

  • Bob

    Nora,
    funny, articulate, compassionate, brave, honest, open, spunky, tough and caring.
    If you haven’t yet, watch her video.

  • salin

    Nora,

    Great video. Both you and Aaron, in your individual videos, make great use of humor through the irony of the absurdness of various practices, policies and beliefs in Scientology in ways that make the points you are making vivid and real. In this video, you do this – but you do so much more.

    You share deeply personal situations, and don’t back away from displaying the real, emotional pain, caused by years of mental contortions imposed on you and then adopted by you. Watching this I could feel the palpable pain of the knots you describe.

    The subtext by the end of the video that I heard was : This message is so deeply important, so vital to be heard, that I am willing to wade (and show) through raw emotional pain, in order to get this message to a place where all, but especially those facing similar emotional prisons, may find the message.

    Exceptionally moving video, Nora. Bravo!

    • Mark Foster

      Salin: fist-pump-high-five-booty-wiggle-hell-to-the-motherfuckin´-yes!
      Translation: Eloquently stated and heartily agreed with.

      • salin

        I am going to have to ask one of my students to demonstrate that move for me 😀 (they will giggle madly to hear me repeat it.)

        • jazzlover

          Start off simple. Maybe have them play a game of Twister or something 🙂

        • Draco

          Video and share please 🙂

          • salin

            lol!

      • jazzlover

        Yo Mark, stop with the high fivin’ and break out that fretless, will ya? 😉

      • Draco

        I was trying to think of how to say this – but I’ll just go with “What Mark Foster said!”

      • Ella Raitch

        Mark you have such a way with words.

        It’s a kind of brutal sincerity (that I adore by the way)

    • jazzlover

      Really, what it speaks to is a need that we all have — that of wanting to be loved and respected as human beings, encouraged to grow and prosper as who we are, free of judgment. Nora’s video cuts right to the heart of why even never in’s like myself should be concerned and outraged about the existence of evil entities like this in our world. Imagine a world where everyone is cut off at the knees, prevented from sharing their experiences, wisdom and great talents because of insidiousness like this.

  • The Hubbard Prison Experiment: Similar to the Stanford one, except that most subjects alternate as prisoners and guards. It’s been running for decades because there’s no one in charge with the power to stop it.

    • So much truth right there. I refused to watch that movie because it was too upsetting just seeing the preview. It was WAY too close to what I went through on the RPF.

    • salin

      And no outside entity holding it accountable so that it can keep running.

    • Ella Raitch

      Scary and true

  • Richard

    When I was in Scientology and trying to make sense of Hubbard’s scriptures, knowing that he was always right (yes, that’s what you have to believe at all costs) and read about his views on homosexuals, I had impossible difficulty in finding a way that would make Hubbard right and get the EP (end phenomena) out of his words of wisdom.

    As a violin maker and very much involved with artists, it is obvious that there are a quite a number of gay people among this group. Incredibly talented people.

    But going further in to the history of art, it is impossible not to mention geniuses like Michelangelo and Tchaikovsky, who were homosexual. But the complete list of gay artists is almost endless. I am talking about the greatest creators of music, painting, sculpture, theatre and prose that the world has ever given us.

    Fortunately I never got deeply involved with this particular aspect of Scientology, but I do remember one passing comment about great homosexual artists, which went something like this: “Imagine what they could have achieved had Scientology been available to them.”

    My mind is spinnining thinking what could have happened to all these geniuses.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Mind spinning is right!

  • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

    Hey Nora, thank you so much for tweeting your video at key allies and other people who need to know. You might also consider tweeting at the musician Annie Clark (St. Vincent). She’s worked with Beck before (recently, in fact) and she’s openly gay. And I know she’s read Going Clear because she said so. A retweet of a pic with Beck is at the top of her twitter feed, so it’s perfect timing.

    https://twitter.com/st_vincent

    • Done!!!

      • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

        Awesome, thx, babe. Your twitter feed is now officially The Enturbulation Station!

  • Just finished watching your video, Nora.
    Thank you for sharing so deeply with us.

    You are a very good loving person, Nora.

    Kudos to your husband for being so understanding.

    Your kids are lucky to have parents like you.

    It’s hard to put emotions into words right now.
    Loving hug.

    • jazzlover

      How you doin’ today, ArghhhhhRA? 😉

  • Douglas D. Douglas

    Just finished watching all of Nora’s video. Thank you, Nora.

    We have never met, though I hope we do someday, if only to get a hug. (Do you hug complete strangers?)

    In the course of your story, you expressed your relief and astonishment at your husband’s reaction when you told him you were gay. He simply said, “I love you.” May I say that based on what I know of you, I cannot imagine any decent person who would react differently. You’re just that good.

    • Yes I hug everyone. And thank you. He is the best person in so many ways.

  • KingofSweden

    Thanks for sharing your story so candidly and intimately, Nora… glad to hear that you are with your family and living a free life!

  • Susie Serve

    Question: what is the conveniently made-up, intellectually satisfying rationale beneath the homophobia held by the Scientology group? It cannot be presented or justified merely by a podunk, redneck sort of stance, or it wouldn’t have survived all these years. I have heard with my own ears, and sitting in the presence of two entirely different “cult leaders,” their varying rationales for rejecting or ejecting nonheterosexuals. (Even using these terminologies about sexual identity gives me the creeps; let us all be, for chrissakes.) In one instance, this rationale was personally directed at a man with tears coming from his eyes in a torrent of grief and pain. An abrupt ceiling was placed atop his years of service and spiritual effort. The ceiling was slammed right above his head with seeming kindness and cogent explanation, which was utterly sickening, heartbreaking to witness. And the “guru”s” bleating herd all agreed, regardless of ” being real friends” with this man. ‘Cause Mama cultist, Mama Perfect directed the show. So, what the hellacious hell is the rationale and justification used by Scientology for its particular brand of divide and conquer via human sexuality? How is the podunk redneck heap of shit dolled up and made presentable? Anyone?

    • Ella Raitch

      LRh came up with the source material based on his own sexual fucked-up-edness. By many accounts, in early Scientology there was a bit of a loose and liberal crowd, including famously gay members like John McMasters – for whatever reason these early members were able to disregard some of the more hateful elements because they saw merit in the ‘processing’ (read: mindless, repetitive trance inducing activities that led to feelings of disassociation).

      But matched with the source material was the movement that was to make it all happen – the Sea Org. And this group, which was created exactly how LRH wanted it – to his command intention, his direct orders – is where the really awful stuff happens – always has. A place where people are persecuted for thought crimes.

      Public Scientologists are encouraged to believe that some of the less tasteful or crazier stuff is allegorical, or that they can believe what they want and disregard the rest.

      Life in the Sea Org makes a lie out of this notion, and shows how deadly serious the commitment is to the literal word of LRH.

      Also Scientology just flat out lies to people. For exampler, they will say it is a philosophy which can co-exist with other faiths – that a person can be a Catholic Scientologist or a Jewish Scientologist…all the while knowing that in the upper levels, a person will learn that all religion is an implanted idea from psychological processing.

      Hope I’m answering your questions Susie, but when dealing with Scientology, remember a few things: Scientologists are lying liars that lie, and also it’s Scientology: it isn’t meant to make sense.

      • Susie Serve

        Thanks Ella. Seeing that Hubbard took cues from a Victorian-Era psychiatrist who never, never included any information about sexuality except for peoples’ “perversions and deviations” from an unmentioned, so-called norm, is very indicative, in and of itself! This is not an attempt by me to discredit Richard von Krafft Ebing, who really did work to improve conditions in mental hospitals being run worse than prisons. However, he was a Victorian man who, while respectful of pioneers such as Freud, was perplexed and embarrassed by Freud’s work, as well. Hubbard gleaned his leads from a prude who studied sexuality while trying not to mention sexuality at all, except as a perversion! Really, it is very funny in its own way. The good doctor died at age 62, in 1902.

  • jane456

    I would like to see some artfully created questions by exes that put the the celebrities and other high profile scientologists on the spot. What question would you want a reporter to ask Prepon or any of them? One that they can’t just lie about because their training will not allow them to. It really is surprising that people in this industry tolerate this so much, I mean it is so cruel and evil what they do. Also, does this mean any openly gay people cannot work for a business owned or run by a scientologist? Not that you would want to but you might not know the business is run by scientologists.

    • Sid

      “Is the tech (Yes, that will put it in context for them) that LRH wrote about homosexuality no longer valid or used anymore? Is it of historical note only? ”

      This will put the policy Tech Degrades forefront in their minds. They will have to say yes it is still used.

      • scottmercer

        In Flubbard’s thousands of books and papers, there are many contradictions where he forgot what he had previously proclaimed years earlier. Has anyone compiled a nice juicy list of these, ready made for inducing cognitive dissonance and breaking hypnotic spells?

      • jane456

        How about; ” If I am gay, would I be allowed to take high level OT courses in scientology?” “As a scientologist, do you believe that gay people are good people?” “Does scientology practice gay conversion?” “Does David Miscavige use the word “faggot” a lot” Maybe a softball first and then wind up and let em have it.

        • Sid

          That first one is excellent. The others are all good as well.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      If I could get a reporter to pose questions to Laura Prepon in a highly public setting– say a press conference or red carpet– I would make it two part.

      1. You have said that your background in Scientology has made you a better actress. What is the most important aspect of Scientology that comes to mind in this?

      2.You play a gay character that many people look to as an icon. How do you reconcile that with Scientology’s teaching that homosexuality is a perversion and that removing homosexuals from society will raise its level?

      Question one is a puff ball- an easy lob, that would likely result in a word salad about how using the Tone Scale raises one ability to play-act.

      Question two starts out with a compliment, then cuts right to the chase. The likely answer would be an awkward denial– which would look all the more awkward after the enthusiastic endorsement offered in the first answer. The interviewer would need to have a ready follow up. For example: “Surely you are aware that the Tone Scale places homosexuality at 1.1, a group that L. Ron Hubbard wrote should be removed quietly, and without sorrow.”

      Then, let the word salad begin anew. More likely the interview would mysteriously cut short. Worth a try, anyway.

    • Mark Foster

      I would ask her if she has read SCIENCE OF SURVIVAL and DIANETICS. Regardless of the answer, I would then read the quotes from both books that put homosexuality at 1.1 on the tone scale and remind her of her statement on FusionTV about not encountering anything anti-LGBT in scientology-since 1999…and ask her if,
      as a scientologist, she has to believe/support Flubbard´s views AND what would be the consequences for her openly disagreeing with/not following those views.

      • Sid

        Good one.

  • Sunny Sands

    Today in Clearwater, Scientology tried to ride the coattails of a sold-out Hispanic concert at Coachman Park, by setting up their tents and displays at Osceola Courtyard. They even put a pretty young lady out front to hand out flyers, but it didn’t work.

    • Sid

      Great shot. I can hear the crickets from here.

    • scottmercer

      How about some actual trained psychologists in a tent across the street, offering actual psychological advice? That would rile the clams. Somebody get on that one, I’m not a trained psychologist.

  • Draco

    I am off to bed. Thanks everyone for sharing your stories and thoughts with us. It’s been extremely emotional and a lot of what has been said has given me a lot to think about. Some of the never-ins prove their real value on days like this. Having that outside viewpoint is so important, because it highlights how totally screwed up your thinking becomes when you are a part of something like scn. So thanks to all of you <3
    But mostly, I am so fucking happy to be put of scientology and not to be part of that hive-mind anymore.
    Good night all xxx

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Pleasant dreams. (This is an order!)

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      May all your dreams be your own…

      • villagedianne

        Very deep, 5FLAL. I mean that in a good way.

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          Aw, thx. I appreciate that.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    The Founder dealt with the “homo problem” in the same way he handled Communists, Psychs, and J. Edgar Hoover: He damned them all to Scientology’s version of Hell: A wholetrack black inkiness wherein one is condemned to nightmarish implants that are diabolically laid in to enslave planets and populations.

    COB must deal wit the same homo problem. However, Danny Sherman has cautioned COB to use the word “gay” so as not to enrage the wogs. Moreover, and by way of making a fully embracive clarification, the wog world tries to say we in the Church of Scientology are hateful and bigoted towards gay people. This is not true. Factually, we are hateful and bigoted towards everyone who is not a Scientologist in good standing. And not to get off on a tangent, but COB is surely going to have a blood vessel in his head burst if OSA does not pull up its socks and terminatedly handle that SP documentary Going Clear.

    But what can COB do when there is no Tommy Davis around to bullbait Alex Gibney? Where is COB’s new hero, his new champion who can confront and shatter suppression the likes of which the world has never seen? Sea Org members these days are so cowed by the forces of global suppression that they want to route out in droves and we just don’t have enough auditors to do their routing out sec checks. Many of these people blow and this only compounds the problems in the existing scene.

    But back on topic: The only hope for the sexually deviant 1.1 — or for any other wog for that matter — is the Church of Scientology’s copyrighted $360,000 program of auditing. Now 50,000x better with COB’s new Quantum Mark VIII Super Incredible e-meter, auditing becomes even better when one donates $500,000 for the mandatory IAS Patron Sublime Excelcius Status.

    Finally, by way of handling the homosexual menace, only if only to stay firmly anchored into our 1950’s view of the world where Marcabs were as dangerous as Communists and R6 implants were under every bed and around every corner, COB RTC David Miscavige had Scientology Media Productions issue a re-release of a 1950’s PSA on this problem.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17u01_sWjRE

    • Missionary Kid

      Have you adopted a Philly accent? “COB must deal wit…” 😀

    • salin

      I thought the end goal was Homo Novis, wouldn’t that translate roughly as “new homo” ? Doesn’t that make for a confusing End Process for the Scientologist?

    • Draco

      And here I was, waiting for the video with CoB explaining how we only learnt to be cool because of Gay America. I mean, that’s logical to expect that after the “Blacks taught whites how to be cool” thing…?

    • scottmercer

      Damn that Xenu, thinks LRH, with his false implants and enslavement of humanity! He got there before I did!

  • nommables

    Wow. I just watched Nora’s video. Nora, you are an amazing woman. Beautiful, honest and growing through this journey in spite of the crap that has to be dredge up in order to “handle” it. I find your honesty not only beautiful but heartbreaking as well. People can be unspeakably abusive to otheres, and yet the human spirit, the heart’s capacity for love, the capacity for those things grow even when the abuses are at their worst. This afternoon while I lay in bed, writhing through the symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis and on the verge of a Pity Party, you’ve given me a beautiful gift through your words. Our situations are no where near similiar, but suffering is suffering (in my opinion). So thank you for being brave enough to give a gift to a stranger.

    • Juicer77

      Sorry to hear Nommables, that you’re having a flare up 🙁

      • nommables

        Thanks Juice…

    • sugarplumfairy

      You shouldn’t be writhing.. Your med team isn’t controlling your pain.. There is no excuse for that.. Demand help, nom.. They can and should make it better..

      • Miss Tia

        i second this…PLEASE get with your med team STAT! ((hugs)) nom!

      • nommables

        Thank you fairy…yes, I need to do something different. I am currently taking gabapentin-it helps the nerve pain for sure. Thank you for caring. 🙂

    • sugarplumfairy

      Ask your doc about gabapentin, if you’re not already on it..

      • ze moo

        Gabapentin and Baclofin are a great combo for muscle spasms….

        • sugarplumfairy

          Soooo many meds.. Soo many effective combinations of meds.. There just is no reason any more for people to be in pain.. It can be controlled.. I hate thinking of anyone suffering unnecessarily..

    • daisy

      If you are not already seeing a specialist ask your Dr. to refer you to a pain specialist. I am sorry you are in so much pain, it is exhausting and cruel. I am glad that you feel supported by this community.

      • nommables

        Thanks Daisy. I do feel supported by you guys! 🙂

  • Ben Franklin

    Clip from the Media Mayhem interview with T.O. in August 2014 on Scientology’s Dark Secret About Homosexuality

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxy_OGhT9I

  • Ron Townson

    You are going to think I’m ignorant, and you might be right! However, I couldn’t go further than 4:40 on the video. First of all, she had too many tattoos on her arm. The other thing is that I feel that she is a Homosexual. Please understand that I am not Homophobic, as I do not fear nor hate them or anyone! It’s called discernment! Obviously she is from a dysfunctional family. Too bad she didn’t go in a more Godly direction in life! But then, most SiFi’s lose all of their Godly Instincts and Beliefs, never to fully regain them due to the lifelong brainwashing they have been pierced with. Oh Well!

    • Sherbet

      I think you’re in the wrong blog.

      • sugarplumfairy

        I bet he’s voting for Trump..

        • Sherbet

          Even Trump won’t want his support.

    • Miss Tia

      How have you survived in life with such a judgmental attitude? Don’t answer that! Bless your heart and buh bye!

      • It’s discernment, you see.

        • ze moo

          How discerning of you Dodo….

        • scottmercer

          It’s only homophobic, misogynistic, judgemental, self-righteous discernment.

      • Sherbet

        Kindly put, Tia. This isn’t the place to attack Ron Townson if he genuinely thinks he’s a discerning man. But we don’t have to chat with him. Buh bye, indeed.

        • Miss Tia

          yeah, there’s no reason to attack him…..i can’t imagine living life that narrow minded! tattoos? o_O homosexual? o_O he would be totally shocked out of his socks if he knew all the LGBT individuals whom he interacts with everyday—doctors/nurses/staff; restaurants; check out clerks; police/fire; teachers; government officials/workers; etc and a lot of them would have tattoos too!

          • Sherbet

            Oh, there’s PLENTY of reason. I said it wasn’t the place. But I don’t make the Bunker rules. Go ahead and make mincemeat as only you can! It might be amusing to watch.

            • Miss Tia

              nah, it’s okay…..i’ll leave it at this….unless something flares up 😉

            • Sherbet

              Imagine watching Nora’s video and getting only icky feelings from it. Ron Townson has no heart.

            • Miss Tia

              well he wasn’t focused on the MESSAGE…..he just wants to attack HER for her tattoos and ::whispers:: she might be a “Homosexual” and then further attack her……

              no heart, no soul, just an empty void filled with hatred…..

            • sugarplumfairy

              So ugly.. Even if he’s only a fifteen year old troll trying to get a rise, it’s just so ugly..

            • MereCatWatcher

              Even if he is a Clearwater sock or maybe especially if he is, he has a minuscule damaged heart that needs surgery STAT.

          • Donna Cline Sargent

            even me ! ha i have one lol

            • Sherbet

              You wouldn’t if you were godly, Donna.

            • Donna Cline Sargent

              well i do believe in God, and i believe God loves everyone and that God does not make mistakes. so ppl like this guy makes me sick !

            • Sherbet

              What’s truly crazy is: there’s ISIS, there are school shootings, there are suicides, there are little kids with cancer…and this dude is worried about tattoos and who’s bumping whose body parts. Sickening, indeed, Donna.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Bet he has a big ole confederate flag tattooed on his right butt check.. Fairy intuition..

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Or… you peeked?

              My sincerest condolences.

            • Sherbet

              Definitely right butt cheek. The left one is too, well, leftist.

      • SuppressedPerson

        He probably goes to a “church” where they preach anti-gay, pro-gun, anti-choice and hatred of our President. He’s got enough of a support group. Barring that, there’s Faux News and endless right wing nut jobs. He’s got a whole support system, i would guess. Allegedly.

    • salin

      What brings you here, Ron?

      • Sherbet

        Psst…somebody tell Nora Crest she might possibly be a Homosexual. She must be giving out vibes or something.

        • Miss Tia

          do you think she knows she might have tattoos?

          • Graham

            And how many tattoos are ‘too many’ tattoos?

            • Miss Tia

              yeah, exactly…..dafuq?!

          • Sherbet

            That’s a good question. She might have some slight inkling, especially in the shower.

            • Robert Eckert

              She might have some slight inking.

            • Miss Tia

              “inkling” 😀

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          With a capital “H” yet!

          • Sherbet

            Must be a special honor.

            • Miss Tia

              ahem….Honor…..

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lol.. That should work..

    • Libertylover

      What would Jesus do Ron? I think you needed more hugs when you were younger.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Is this a joke? Not funny if so..

      • Sherbet

        I’m unsure, myself.

        • Donna Cline Sargent

          if you go to his profile his first post says Smokey Townson,Clearwater FLA.

          • Sherbet

            Hmmmm….red flag, red flag.

          • Libertylover

            Ah even more subtle than Edward, well it must be worrying them and must be troublesome to be devoting so much time to it. Desperation much?

      • Graham

        Poe’s Law strikes yet again.

        • Sherbet

          Did he just change his avi?

          • Graham

            Don’t think so. But wasn’t paying that close attention.

      • Libertylover

        I’d like to hear an explanation of how he ended up here? Seems off. How did you end up at this blog Ron?

        • Sherbet

          He turned right at johnbirchsociety dot com (Are they still around?)

          • Mark Foster

            The mind set, if not the actual organization, hell yes.
            Hi, Sherb 🙂

            • Sherbet

              Hiya, Mark. It’s always good to see you. As for John Birchers…it’s hard to believe people are so narrow-minded STILL.

          • Missionary Kid

            Yeah, it’s called the Koch brothers, whose father was one of the founders.

            • Sherbet

              Ugh.

        • sugarplumfairy

          He googled “scientology is not homophobic..”

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        It is, at the very least, a diversion. But not funny enough to be a joke.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Hi, Ron, and welcome to the Bunker. May I assume you have wandered in after finding this video on YouTube?

      I agree that I think you are somewhat ignorant, but your feelings are correct– Nora is a homosexual. (As opposed to a Homosexual.)

      Her Scientology family was somewhat dysfunctional by my standards, and almost certainly yours– but like all of us she did the best with what she was given and has landed on her feet. She has a loving husband and dotes on her two children, so there’s that.

      As far as heading in a more Godly direction in life, I would hope that does not include following anything you have posted in your brief time on Disqus. Calling people Communist bastard, slut, bitch, sideshow freaks, screwed up moron and beanhead is nowhere in my Bible.

      Have a nice day.

      • Libertylover

        Video is private on YT so you can only access from this blog DDD

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          The plot thickens…

          • Miss Tia

            their tactics sicken…..

          • Libertylover

            Donna already sussed it downthread, he’s from Clearwater.

      • salin

        Lol DDD, I read that, too.

        • Miss Tia

          i didn’t go to his disqus…..i think i might have too but my spinach artichoke dip might be done……dip first! then a dive 😉

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            Disqus record is always my first stop when the clown car pulls in.

            • Sherbet

              I couldn’t get in for some reason. So I gave RT the benefit of the doubt. Super Howdy Spidey Sense constantly fails me.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You do pretty darn well..

            • Sherbet

              Thanks, but I don’t think so. I just don’t talk to someone who doesn’t “smell” right, but I can’t peg them right off the bat the way some people can.

            • MereCatWatcher

              Same here. Though usually my ignore turns out to be correct. I do sometimes get it wrong like my first read of one of the regulars who is appreciated now by many bunkerites including me.

            • Miss Tia

              i usually DO that, but i’m half paying attention for ensuring my dip and bread doesn’t overbake (about 5 more minutes 😉

            • Robert Eckert

              Far more important.

            • Miss Tia

              it was! 🙂

            • Miss Tia

              egads….i might have lost my appetite…he loves ann coulter?!? that says it all right there!!!

          • salin

            Mmmmmm sounds good.

            • Miss Tia

              it was!!!! it made PLENTY!! so much that i froze half of it pre-baked for another day and i have half of what i baked for a meal tomorrow!! nom nom nom

    • Mark Foster

      Hi Ron. This is NOT the place to get your overdue enema.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Is that how you remove a stick-up-the-ass?

        • Mark Foster

          It, at least, loosens the barometer of godliness shoved up there…

          • Sherbet

            I’m literally laughing out loud. I think RT needs a colonoscopy to scope how much sh** he’s full of.

            But then, I said I wasn’t going to attack him. I’ll just sing hymns and think kind thoughts from now on. (You guys can continue to attack. You’re doing a great job of it.)

      • Ella Raitch

        *choking*

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Gotta save this one, just in case…

      • Chee Chalker

        Did you notice the avatar picture is different in this screen shot (different from the one he posted under) ?

        • Sherbet

          I noticed it changed. See, Graham?

          • Graham

            You are right! In his new avi he’s wearing ‘cool dude’ shades so we’ll think he’s a cool dude. And so he’s not so easily recognisable. Meh… basically yet another sad attempt at a de-rail.

            • Sherbet

              I agree, Graham. Just in case, I shall go forth and be godly. And mind the tattoos.

            • salin

              I don’t think so. Disqus shows limited posting – but over a period of time, and aside from this all on far right wing political items. Then again – if one is anti-gay, why make your first foray into the UB, on the day that the story is about Hubbards institutionalized homophobia? I think it is right wing trolling (based on the second poster) rather than osa trolling.

            • salin

              Never mind- second guy is the same account as the first guy. I concede, diversion trolling it is.

            • salin

              Replete with delete tech. Outside of scienos I have never seen trolls delete there work after the fact.

    • CO$CUZ

      I agree with you. I do think you are ignorant.

      • 0tessa

        And not only ignorant …

    • boobz&nutz

      There is nothing inherently right or wrong with a resistance to another person or or to another persons lifestyle or with any prejudice to anything that one finds themselves with. We all have our own prejudices and while pointing at others prejudices might excite PC police type people, I do not buy into PC BS.

      • salin

        Hi female and male bodypartsnic – what brings you to the Underground Bunker?

        • boobz&nutz

          The urge to comment on this “homophobic” BS.

          • salin

            How, did you come to read about the ‘homophobic’ BS on Mr. Ortega’s blog?

            • boobz&nutz

              computer screen. mac.

            • salin

              Are you a regular reader of the Underground? Or do you just search google for homophobia?

            • boobz&nutz

              “LOL hi RonTownson. Nice sock puppet. Nice Godly directed nic name.”

              Next.

            • salin

              How cute, you made your profile private, Ron Townson.

            • boobz&nutz

              Please go troll someone else. Thanks.

            • salin

              Mirror?

          • romanesco

            Fuck off.

            • boobz&nutz

              Vai te fuder

            • romanesco

              You heard me.

            • boobz&nutz

              Everyone heard you.

            • romanesco

              Damn straight.

      • Libertylover

        You got a brand new account to just say that with your first comment, phew!

        • boobz&nutz

          I could say more. No one is bound to buy into changes in our world the moment a change emerges and we are in rapidly changing times. It might take some longer to include or adapt to changes in the world, that is if they even do choose to buy in at all before they are too old to care.

          • salin

            LOL hi RonTownson. Nice sock puppet. Nice Godly directed nic name.

            • boobz&nutz

              Just saying that and adding a “LOL” does not make it more real, true or credible. I know you think it does but no.

            • salin

              Editing your posts, I see. Good trick. Edited to add: Never mind, I miss read.

            • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

              Isn’t the boobz&nutz passage in Psalms? *giggles*

            • salin

              And the Sermon on the Mount. :eyeroll:

          • Libertylover

            Yeah well think what you want but it will never go back to the old way now it has changed.
            Kind of like slavery and bans on inter racial marriage. You might have been in step last century but your on the wrong side of history now. Political parties that espouse this view will never go anywhere and it won’t fly or pass the smell test with them younguns.

            • boobz&nutz

              How humans are is interesting and no one is spared all that goes on in a persons lifetime, the richest most homogenous whitest straightest person has to deal with endless discriminations and prejudices every moment of their life but PC police are not interested in that at this time. What is hot right now is “homophobia” because that is what sells. I know so many heterosexual people who are lost and have no clue how to express themselves sexually and have just accepted that they never will and put their attention on other things. They feel left out and overlooked and unwanted in the world because of the way they are or the way they are not.

            • romanesco

              Bullshit. You were told where to go. Now, go there.

            • salin

              Fairy tales, like Xenu?

            • boobz&nutz

              Fairy tales like: “LOL hi RonTownson. Nice sock puppet. Nice Godly directed nic name.”

            • salin

              I think when I clicked on your profile, that I saw “Ron Townson” – in retrospect – because you had responded to his post. My bad. It appeared that he had created a sock to defend himself. I was mistaken. In my mistaken-ness I was flip – including that your chosen nic rather contradicted said poster’s emphasis on ‘Godliness’.

              I am still curious, given that you don’t seem to be commenting at all about the content of the blog, what brought you to Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker.

            • boobz&nutz

              Since one of your Bunker team leaders has told me to “fuck off” and asked that I heed her threat three times now, I am going to do just that.

            • sugarplumfairy

              “…. The richest most homogenous whitest straightest person has to deal with endless discriminations and prejudices every moment of their life…”

              No, they don’t.. That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard.. In the last fifteen minutes anyway..

            • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

              “The richest most homogenous whitest straightest person has to deal with endless discriminations and prejudices every moment of their life….”

              Oh dear, who will stand up for the rich white people??!!?? The oppression they face is just heartbreaking. Perhaps you can start by giving them rides to Starbucks and Saks Fifth Avenue on your Freedom Train. *facepalm*

            • boobz&nutz

              You must not know very many rich white people. I do. There is no shortage of misery and problems and alienation and problems of existence that face every person who was ever born. I would respectfully suggest that you just can’t see past the fact that they drive a different car than you and live in a differently arranged pile of bricks and mortar than yourself and wear different clothes than you (that were both made in China.)

            • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

              You know absolutely nothing about me, who I know, or what social/financial circles I socialize in. If you did, you’d know that your comment is presumptuous and so far off the mark it’s ridiculous.

              Good day Sir.

            • romanesco

              I thought you agreed to fuck off.

            • ze moo

              MItt Romney and all of the current Republican candidates will answer that call.

        • Robert Eckert

          That’s always a tell. (Ron Townson on the other hand is just your basic RWNJ who has wandered here by mistake.)

          • Libertylover

            Too coincidental that they showed together, I believe it’s right out the playbook myself. I saw another troll who posted all over right wing stuff before getting into defending Scientology, plus Ron was from Clearwater, but hey I could be wrong, I see a lot of this think at my local paper too.
            Edit… Ron left his profile open, he probably thought he could get the right leaning folks here fighting with the left. One of the reasons I like it here is the lack of that political name calling btw.

      • scottmercer

        The term “politically correct” is Orwellian and a farce. Of course, each person believes that their own closely held political views are the correct ones, otherwise THEY WOULD NOT HOLD THOSE VIEWS. Of course “PC” people believe that those who hold opposite views are either simply wrongheaded, and/or misguided, or, worse case scenario, utterly immoral. As do those believe on the other side. The subtext with the term “Politically Correct” of course is, “how dare those liberals tout that they are correct, and attempt to promote their worldview, when of course they are obviously wrongheaded, as well as being not the right sort of people.” The way we know that the “PC” people are correct, and those opposing those views are wrong, is that the “PC” are inclusive and tolerant, while the “anti-PC” people are exclusive and intolerant. The only thing “PC” people are intolerant of is intolerance. And of course, by using the term “PC Police” shows what a coward you are. There are no “police tactics,” just vigorous promotion of a political stance in the marketplace of ideas, a marketplace which you are too cowardly to enter, knowing that what you’re selling has a paltry number of customers.

        • boobz&nutz

          I respectfully disagree.

          • Robert Eckert

            You don’t know the meaning of the word “respectful”

            • boobz&nutz

              I respectfully disagree.

            • Robert Eckert

      • Boobs . . . I just wanted to say that. No I will actually reply.
        I get your point. This is America and people are entitled to their opinion.
        Are you saying though, that Homophobia isn’t a real thing? That is doesn’t exist in Scientology? And did you watch my video?

        • boobz&nutz

          I am saying that there is nothing inherently right or wrong with a persons sexual preferences or who they are attracted to or not attracted to or others being prejudiced or not prejudiced against that. The PC police that try and shame others by calling them “homophobic” are just playing a one-up game. We all live in a skittish prejudiced biased unruly world where each person tries to fit in and keep up with changes that are happening faster then ever. Some have privileges one moment and lose them the next, some have rights and advantages one day and not the next, there is no consistent reliable rule that anyone can lean or rely on. Some want to claim that their disadvantage is more special and more disadvantagey then others. I do not buy into such POVs.

          • So then no Homophobia isn’t a real thing?
            And did you watch my video?

            • boobz&nutz

              It is not inherently any more realer or importanter or worser or impactfuller than any other discrimination or prejudice that we all live with. If one considers it to be, fine I get that. But I do not buy into that.

            • Hmmmmmm. Sorta an answer.
              And did you watch my video?

            • boobz&nutz

              Part not all.

            • OK and what can you say about the video. The part that you watched. What did you think about it?

            • boobz&nutz

              I am sure everyone gets different things from watching a video like that. What I was left with was a impression that you are a great person and you would probably be a fun person to hang out with. I had little interest in what you were talking about to be honest. That is all I will say.

            • SuppressedPerson

              Oh oh. “Guest” might get declared for hanging with us “Bunker bugs” or whatever awkward anathema they have for us this week.

              I’m sorry that people’s lives are torn apart, but the more people that are declared, the better. Get them out of this horrible cult. The pain of it doesn’t equal being stuck in forever. Or until suicide or other untimely demise.

            • jane456

              You woke up a couple of trolls, Nora. This suggests this is a sensitive topic to the wee one and they are attempting to derail. In other words, good job, Nora. Cheers! We should keep bringing this up again and again and again.

            • Donna Cline Sargent

              yep and now they are using delete comments tech.

            • Yeah it does seem to have hit a nerve. I will try my best to keep talking as long as I can.

            • Let’s face it Boobs probably got in trouble because she admitted she watched part of my video! UH OH!!!!!

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      “First of all, she had too many tattoos on her arm.”

      Well…that proves it!! Too many tattoos clearly means that what she’s saying has no value. C’mon man, give me a break. She needs to go in a “Godly direction”? Really?

      Perhaps you should check the directions on your ‘Godly Atlas’ so you can find your way back to the “Judge Not” border.

    • Well Ron, I guess you shoulda stuck it out a little longer in my video and then you would have gotten the whole story. As far as the tattoos go, I am sure there are plenty of people who agree with you on that one and I am only getting more. Sorry to disappoint. As far as me being homosexual, that was KINDA the point. But since you don’t want to hear the story there really isn’t anything to say to you on that. But I believe in God per se. I also believe that god doesn’t give a fuck about who is touching who where in their own bedroom. I think god preaches and teaches LOVE. That’s it. No exceptions. No quid pro quo’s. No provisions or modifications. No if’s, ands or but’s. LOVE. If you can’t do that. If you can’t love someone who you disagree with, who you think has a bad haircut, who has a different political view than you, then you sir are not godly. You are a bigot. God doesn’t like that.

      • Donna Cline Sargent

        You are such a inspiration, I love your videos. God Bless you and your family.

      • villagedianne

        “God doesn’t like that.”

        No. She doesn’t.

    • J. Swift

      I checked Townson’s disqus comments. On another board, the “Godly” Ron Townson commented to someone: “Have a taco beanhead!” Townson’s delusion is that his bigotry is godly.

      http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a563/OTVIIIisGrrr8/TAco_zpsxveyhmok.png

      • ~Smokey Townson
        Clearwater, FL

        Herm.

    • pluvo

      Looky, a specimen of reactionists!

    • Frodis73

      Oh no, the horror of tats. I better go save up some cash so I can get mine removed now. I don’t want to be judged by types like Ron. I’ll go start a gofundme account ASAP so the Bunker can save me.

  • Kim O’Brien

    Nora …that was beautiful and you are amazing and perfect and strong and awesome and fierce and earnest and honest . I am so glad you are out of scientology