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Scientology hit with another federal lawsuit over refunds — but with a twist

John_DettmerA new federal lawsuit was filed this week by former members of the Church of Scientology who are asking the organization to return money that they had put on account. John A. (pictured) and Mary Lou Dettmer of Avon, Indiana are suing Scientology’s Illinois branch after it refused to return $77,810 that the Dettmers had paid years ago for courses that they now have no use for.

The lawsuit is so new, Scientology doesn’t even know it’s coming yet, says Fred Pfenninger, the Indianapolis attorney for the Dettmers, who spoke with us yesterday. “They don’t even know, to my knowledge, that it’s been filed. We have not sent the summonses out,” he said.

We told Pfenninger that we found numerous things about the lawsuit unusual, and we’ve asked him to put us in touch with the Dettmers. In the meantime, the complaint explains that in 2013, the Dettmers requested, and received, large refunds from two Scientology entities — the Flag Service Organization (FSO) returned $95,216.56 on August 19, and the Flag Ship Service Organization (FSSO) returned $11,687.25 on August 25. But the Church of Scientology of Illinois refused to turn over the $77,810 that are on account for the Dettmers, and so they filed suit.

We found the timing of those refunds very interesting. We’ve heard from many ex-Scientologists who say they have been given the runaround about refunds, and some have sued. In January 2013, Luis and Rocio Garcia sued the FSO, FSSO, and other entities for fraud, alleging that they had turned over about $440,000 after being deceived about why the money was needed and what it would be used for. The Garcias alleged that Scientology’s paperwork and policies made it virtually impossible to get one’s money back after leaving the church. (The Garcias have filed a motion to reconsider after a federal judge granted Scientology’s motion to compel the Garcias to take their grievances to the church’s internal arbitration scheme.)

Because Scientology’s courses are so expensive, costing tens of thousands of dollars for auditing, members are encouraged to bank huge amounts for future levels of processing. Paying for several courses at one time can get a member a discount, and it also encourages them to complete the courses on their way up the “Bridge to Total Freedom.” But when a member leaves, those courses no longer matter, and some people have turned to the courts to try and get that money back.

We have run into other examples where, after the Garcias filed suit at the beginning of 2013, it suddenly became somewhat easier for ex-members to obtain refunds. The Dettmers managed to get money back from FSO — the organization that runs Scientology’s “spiritual mecca,” the Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Florida — and from FSSO, the organization that operates Scientology’s private cruise ship in the Caribbean, the Freewinds, where courses are also delivered.

But for some reason, the Dettmers were stymied by their home “org,” the church in Chicago, which has refused to give them back their money. The Chicago org does appear to have some cash flow problems — it has been unable to raise enough money to renovate a building on Printer’s Row that it purchased in 2007 for its new “Ideal Org,” and has sat rotting so badly the city has taken legal action.

Another important difference between the Dettmers and the Garcias is that the Garcias had been “declared suppressive persons” — excommunicated by the church — and Luis had become an outspoken critic.

Pfenninger tells us that the Dettmers “haven’t spoken ill of the church,” and according to public records, news accounts, and Scientology’s own publications, the Dettmers have an interesting history with the organization.

According to their complaint and its exhibits, it was in 1993 and 1994 that the Dettmers banked large amounts with Scientology, suggesting that they were somewhat new at the time and were caught up in their excitement. John Dettmer is a chiropractor, and Scientology has a front group, the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) that targets chiropractors, dentists, and veterinarians by convincing them that Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard came up with administrative ideas that will help their businesses grow. When a business professional bites, they are then encouraged to make huge investments in Scientology to make all parts of their lives improve. Dettmer’s records suggest that this may have been the case as he banked large amounts in 1994.

In 1996, however, Dettmer was indicted for Medicaid fraud, had his license suspended, and was sentenced to 13 months in prison and three years of supervised release. (His license was restored from probation in 2007.)

In 2003, John and Mary Lou Dettmer were listed among other debtors in a bankruptcy filing regarding the collapsed pyramid scheme of Scientologist Reed Slatkin, one of the largest Ponzi schemes in history until it was eclipsed by the crimes of Bernie Madoff.

In 2009, a former employee at Dettmer’s clinic, Heather Kimbrough, filed a complaint to the Indiana Civil Rights Commission that she had been terminated for “religious” reasons. She withdrew the complaint after Dettmer settled with her. (We’ve written previously about cases involving dentists and chiropractors who face state or federal investigations for pushing Scientology on their employees and terminating them when they don’t comply.)

Also in 2009, John A. and Mary Lou Dettmer showed up on a Super Power Cornerstone donors list for a contribution of $35,000 which they had made at some point in Scientology’s aggressive fundraising for its giant “Flag Building” in Clearwater, which opened in November 2013.

Despite that donation, at some point the Dettmers became disillusioned about Scientology and now want their money back. We’ll be very interested to see if they face the kind of high-octane litigation tactics that the Garcias faced in Florida, or Monique Rathbun has dealt with in Texas.

Here’s the complaint…


Dettmer v. Scientology Illinois: Complaint


Clay models can help you learn to drive! Honest!

Here’s a heartwarming tale about L. Ron Hubbard helping people in New Zealand get their drivers licenses. It’s a classic of Scientology outreach, which gives the impression that Hubbard’s “Study Tech” has something miraculous about it that is allowing people to get their licenses who otherwise couldn’t.

What the writer doesn’t go into at all are the actual concepts of Study Tech, which Claire Headley helped us understand are actually part and parcel to the beginning levels of Scientology training itself, and are intended to begin the indoctrination that only Hubbard and Scientology have the answers for everything in life.

And we find it interesting that the goofy reliance on clay modeling isn’t spelled out in the story. Can’t you just imagine how fun it would be to render right-of-way problems in clay?


Posted by Tony Ortega on April 18, 2015 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of LA attorney and former church member Vance Woodward

UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield


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  • John Peeler a.k.a. BTs2Free

    I dedicate this song to the Sea Org member who is starting to wake up… Plus it’s just a great GBV song anyway.

    Drag days are not so bad but move too slow
    If I were them I’d want them not to linger so
    Now we come to drag days
    Now we come to drag days

    Fake capes baby, they’re too hard to wear
    Put them on and everyone will stare
    We have come to drag days
    We have come to drag days

    We escape them sometimes
    And the feeling is different, more intensified
    We escape them within the walls
    Of our fidgety hearts where we hide

    Away, on out beyond the factory yards
    Up and over the security guards
    We have come to drag days
    We have come to drag days

    We escape them sometimes
    And the feeling is different, more intensified
    We escape them within the walls
    Of our fidgety hearts where we hide

    They will turn around
    They will turn around

    • Frodis73

      One of my fav bands. Excellent choice.

  • Hamtaro

    Random evil thoughts: will Mark Bunker show up at Travolta’s movie premiere tonight in Clearwater? If so, will he be in the press section and try to ask Travolta a question? Maybe about Going Clear ?

    • Super Power Wogsy

      *Mr. Burns grin*

    • MostEthicalPimp

      The entheta is strong with this one.

    • Rasha


      • Mymy88

        LOLOLOLOLOLOL! I love that old meme! Dum da dum!!!!

    • Mymy88

      Hamtaro?? Can you see me? I’ve been trying to show you something.

    • Mymy88

      Dang that little hamster is hard to catch. I guess that’s what happens when you have a life lol.

      • Rasha

        …Serious Ninja hamster….

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    A sincere question:

    How does one go about finding a lawyer who will represent one in getting a repayment of advanced payments from Scientology. And getting refund of IAS and other payments for services. They have admitted they owe me approximately $14,000 in unused advance payments. They said they even cut the checks. But the agreement they wanted signed was unconscionable and I never got the checks. Ford Greene was my attorney at the time, but when I notified him of the communication from Ken Long, he would never take my phone calls or act on my behalf.

    I could never find one who would go to bat for me after that. My handicap is that I cannot pay upfront. It would have to be for a percentage of the take. I signed an agreement with Ford for 50% of the amount recovered and retained him with a token payment of $5.00. But he abandoned me.

    So how do these guys get nearly $100,000 back from Flag?

    • MostEthicalPimp

      Just a thought. But be sure to be upfront with your lawyers about what conditions would be unacceptable to you before they take on your case. I believe most lawyers won’t be interested if you have too many conditions but I admire you for not putting money above your conscious! Also, it sounds like you need an ethical lawyer good like with that!

      • richelieu jr

        You do know that often one of the conditions is that you spy on other people, right, And never, ever speak in public about anything that happened to you or anyone else? (among many other nasty little clauses…)

        • MostEthicalPimp

          Yes, I assume those are the type of conditions that would be unacceptable to Michael, the in-ethics guy that he is. I just feel he needs to tell the lawyers that he won’t accept a settlement under those conditions. Since most lawyers assume you’ll take almost any conditions if you can get your money! Also, if you’re upfront about it the lawyers won’t feel like your just using them and being a jerk who won’t accept a settlement.

    • richelieu jr

      I think you’d find it is much easier now that the Church is visibly shaking and caving on all sorts of settlement issues, This seemed unthinkable to most people even a couple of years ago, and today there are lots of lawyers just drooling to get a settlement.

      I am sure you could get one of those ambulance-chaser types who will take a third of the settlement, in exchange for no cash up front, should you be desperate enough.

    • Charlieisaferalgod

      Perhaps Ryan Hamilton knows someone that would represent you. Contact him and ask for a referral.

    • Anonymous

      Email attorney Babbitt, the one representing the Garcia’s. It is a contingent case…he’ll either be interested or refer you to someone more appropriate.

    • 1subgenius

      Maybe the attorney in this case?

    • Once upon a time, Scientology struck fear in the hearts of attorneys. Times have changed and this case makes for an excellent example of cutting through the confusion of refund vs. repayment. Also note that the firm representing the Dettmers, Pfenninger & Associates, promote themselves as “Collection Attorneys.”

      The right timing + the right *type* of attorney + sticking to just repayment of monies on account and not confusing the issue with any other type of donation, may have been the winning combination for the Dettmers.

      Also – if at first you don’t succeed, you have nothing left to loose if you try again when the timing seems better.

    • Anonymous

      This is the “intake” form to begin a conversation with the Babbitt and Johnson law firm:

  • Rasha

    Many good points and good laughs today. I have plans on the town, and so must away. A good night to all, and pack extra diapers.

    • Super Power Wogsy

      Have a safe trip Rasha!

      • MostEthicalPimp

        Don’t worry he has clay demo’d out the whole evening including the drive to and from!!

        • DangDadgummit

          Dang !

  • Antichristine

    Oh boy. Another couple of $cilons get ripped off and come crying to the Bunker for sympathy. Once we were WOGs. Now we’re supposed to be their besties.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      I don’t think they’re crying for sympathy. More like trying to drum up as much bad PR for the church as they can in-order to force a faster settlement. Something we can all get behind!

      • richelieu jr

        Just because want Scientology to suffer, doesn’t mean I don’t think they are idiotic scumbags and rip-off artists.

        • Antichristine

          Point taken.

        • MostEthicalPimp

          Just to be clear you’re calling John A. and Mary Lou Dettmer ” idiotic scumbags and rip-off artists.” ?

          • richelieu jr

            Oh, OK– I just got your comment in my mailbox (I know, I am SO 20th century! Get with it, gramps!), and not knowing them personally, that is exactly what I was saying. For me Chiropracty is already questionable ( though I have been helped by some (hurt by others)), but mixed with Scientology and a convitcition for fraud (showing all the hallmarks of Hubbardian Business ‘ethics’ shows them to be couple of grifters, attempting to steal enough cards to move up from 3 Card MOnty to counting cards at Blackmail– excuse me, blackjack.

            I don’t know them. But he did do time for exactly that. And no one screams louder when they get cheated than a scam artist. They get insulted on two levels.

            But hey, maybe prison set him straight, he gave the good enws to her and converted and theya re through cracking necks and hanging Hubbard U diplomas on the wall instead of rolling them up in the TP dispenser as necessary, and they are going to take this money to build a house for educating the poor.

            Wanna bet? 😉

      • Mockingbird

        Exposing the cult’s crimes is always a very good idea !

    • Synthia Fagen


    • romanesco

      Is it the Dettmers who contacted the Bunker with this? If they did, they should have known they’d be outed publicly as Ponzi schemers and one of them as a convicted fraudster.

    • Donna Cline Sargent

      maybe you can clarify names,i believe there is a misunderstanding

  • MostEthicalPimp

    Here’s some pre-sunday funday news well hopefully it hasn’t been covered before.

    seams mission of the foothills, CA got a new sign from the collin’s family* wonder what condition they were working up from? Did COB personally approve this New Sign? Here is a queston why aren’t they giving a new sign to their local mission in sunland, ca? You say “hey hasn’t that missions closed?” Wrong but I forgive you since CoS has been keeping a tight lid on it. Sunland Mission is open but at a new address so non-ideal that the Scientology website hasn’t updated to show it. Or maybe they’ve all gone squirrel but they do claim to be the official COS mission for SunLand. lists the old address but lists the new address. as does

    *If look back at the halloween party you can find a photo with one of their daughters, wonder if she is on staff there.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      “We are the official Mission for The Church of Scientology in the Sunland-Tujunga area.” is kind of a strange proclamation. It begs the question Where is the unofficial mission of Scientology located?

      • Sejanus

        At FLAG and Big Blue

        • MostEthicalPimp

          Maybe I should KR Richard Stewart on doing a techincal degrade of the other missions/orgs in the area?

  • Meepthorp

    You do not have to have “spoken ill” of Scientology publicly or otherwise in order to be declared a suppressive person. Getting a refund automatically results in “expulsion”, just another Scientology term that means the same things as excommunication, disconnection. The Dettmers would have been expelled with their first refund. It really doesn’t matter what you call it or what they call it or whether or not a gold paper with your name is issued. It all has the same result: you are a non-person and every Scientologist in “good standing” is expected to shun you. Have the lawyers seen the refund routing form? It explained it right on the routing form.

    • Snake Plissken

      According to Miscavige everyone except for him and Tom Cruise are suppressive

      • Sejanus

        Sure cuz everyone else is big enough to hold them down or…”suppress them”.

    • Anonymous

      It is also true that by virtue of being expelled / declared you are automatically Fair Game, to include the revelation of the contents of your auditing folders. This does not always occur, but it is implicit in the policies as a potential outcome.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      Actually telling people you’re thinking of trying some squerrel auditing is enough to get disconnected from ;(

    • Meepthorp

      Its coming back to me now. A step on the refund routing form was to sign a separate paper called a “writ of expulsion” where you must acknowledge that you are expelled for proceeding with the refund. I wonder if this was revealed in discovery in the Garcia case. In all my experience dealing with refunds as a worker, I never once saw any “arbitration”. The idea of it is 100% JOKE, 0 reality.

  • worstcultever

    Off-topic but Lawrence Wright-related – listening to the interview of LW by Alec Baldwin on Baldwin’s “Here’s the Thing” podcast, I was sufficiently struck by Wright’s thoughts about his own formative years to find and read his book “In the New World/Growing Up with America 1960-1984” .. (fortunately I work in a very large library which had it, though I now see on Amazon that it’s also been reissued – yay) ..

    anyway this thing is a magnificent read from the first page (probably helps that I’m roughly his age) .. but even in 1983 his wordsmith chops were extraordinary .. so much depth in the simplest and most economical prose (you might even say the anti-Hubbard – no wonder he’d end up exploring that vapid bloviator’s creation!) .. anyway I’m ashamed to say I still haven’t actually gotten around to reading Going Clear (! – yeah, yeah, ok, ok *dodging rotten vegetables*) but damn, I know I’m gonna enjoy it way beyond the Sci awfulness exposure .. such a true thinker/artist/communicator .. Hubbard could have taken a lesson (or 10,000) from the likes of LW- his geniune clarity, not to mention the beauty and persuasive power of simplicity and understatement (can you imagine that boor LRHuckster ever understating anything!) .. anyway just some blather .. happy lovely spring weekend everybody!

    • MostEthicalPimp

      LRH really is the Micheal Bay of the written word…

  • stupidity

    Astrophysicist and cosmologist Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s recent defence of Scientology was spot on.

    • Snake Plissken

      That’s nice

      • daytoncapri


    • Anonymous


      • Snake Plissken

        yeah it was a pretty weak first post, the internet isn’t what it used to be. Nowadays people go trolling with no bait on their lines.

        • Juicer77

          Personally, I find chicken necks tied onto a trot line work very well. Mmmmmmm crustaceans 🙂

          • Snake Plissken

            I really don’t mind trolls, but come on at least put a little effort into it. Have a little pride in your work.

            • MostEthicalPimp

              As a reformed troll turned legitimate ethical internet pimp. I must say the trolls of today make me sick. Have some courage for god sakes!!

    • Super Power Wogsy

      awwwwww. come back little troll. i just got here!

    • Donna Cline Sargent

      are you besties with Antichristine ?

    • MostEthicalPimp

      I have troll food if you’ll come out from under your bridge to total freedom!

  • Sid

    John Travolta’s movie premier. (F5)

    • Snake Plissken

      I see a little space alien crawling out from under his rug.

    • MaxSpaceman

      Actually, that’s kind of a big deal for that area of the country, in’it ?
      The movie theater coulda been bigger, tho’, ya’d think …

      • Sid

        I guess it would be considered a ‘blockbuster’ if you think of just one block.

        • Snake Plissken

          If you use the Scientology numbering system, there’s at least 5 million people in that picture

          • Sid

            That’s an exaggeration. They always use specific numbers, so it would be 4,986,373

      • MostEthicalPimp

        I think they would have had more people their if they hadn’t put a fence behind the bleacher to keep the potential trouble makers out.

    • Sid

      One more pic. The ‘Red Carpet’. (F5)

      • Sarah James

        Looks like family and friends showed up. Everyone else went to Going Clear.

        • Anonymous

          It is a very unimpressive crowd…especially since there are “10,000” Scientologists in the neighborhood…heh.

      • worstcultever

        that is one tiny-ass-lookin crowd – GOOD

        WAKE UP JOHN

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Were there any folks protesting?

    • MostEthicalPimp

      the Forger, eh? Didn’t know Jonn T. was doing biography about his favorite author?

    • MostEthicalPimp

      The fencing behind the bleachers is pretty telling

    • worstcultever

      Dear Travolta and Cruise (and their fans, for that matter): Please kiss my entire ass. There is no excuse for your cluelessness and cowardice.

      • Anonymous

        All of it? That seems excessive.

        • worstcultever

          heh – yet another expression I always enjoyed (and of course stole) from a friend

    • aegerprimo

      Did he wear his wiglet?

      • Super Power Wogsy

        he sure did.

      • Juicer77

        Looks like he donned the vintage Danny Zuko.

        • Super Power Wogsy


      • Todd Tomorrow

        Is wigcap, a word? It looks halfway between a large sea shell and a skull cap. Unless, of course he is playing the role of lurker, late night at the gyms.

        • aegerprimo
          • Todd Tomorrow

            “Either the half-dead Papillon clinging to John Travolta’s head squeezed his skull too tight or he was busy thinking of massage therapist dick, because he royally messed up Idina Menzel’s name tonight. Scientology’s very own pretty, pretty princess introduced Idina Menzel’s performance of “Let It Go” (which is what Travolta needs to do to that wig) at the Oscars tonight and he couldn’t have screwed up her name more than he did. A slurring drunk with a lisp would pronounce Chiwetel Ejiofor’s name better than Travolta pronounced Idina Menzel’s name. Hell, if Travolta had to pronounce
            Chiwetel Ejiofor’s name, he probably would’ve cast some kind of spell
            on all of us and tomorrow we’d all be fingering a massage therapist’s
            b-hole.” Excerpt from Aegerprimo’s, Dlisted story.

            • aegerprimo

              Oh my Todd! Take two ibuprofens and get some sleep.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Believe me I would but i’m waiting for a buddy’s plane to get in that I have to pick up.

    • Sid

      One more. F5

      • Sebastian L. Jackson

        His chin is growing to Bobby Z’Dar proportions.

    • One Human

      Awesome lurking Sid!

  • aegerprimo

    The Dettmers sound like sleazy people.

    In 1996, however, Dettmer was indicted for Medicaid fraud, had his license suspended, and was sentenced to 13 months in prison and three years of supervised release. (His license was restored from probation in 2007.)

    In 2003, John and Mary Lou Dettmer were listed among other debtors in a bankruptcy filing regarding the collapsed pyramid scheme of Scientologist Reed Slatkin, one of the largest Ponzi schemes in history until it was eclipsed by the crimes of Bernie Madoff.

    In the $cientology world I was part of once, if a member requests a refund, you are automatically declared an SP (supressive person), though that is not the written policy. Sue any part of the church = automatically declared an SP.

    This is the only doc I can find…

    Bunkeroos, please help with some dox plox. Thanx!

    Tony is right, something is fishy about how the refunds have happened so far for the Dettmers.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      Am wondering how much of the Medicare Fraud money went to the church??? Am wondering if the Fed’s shouldn’t seize their refunds. But it may not be possible due to statue of limitations issues?

      • MostEthicalPimp

        would rather see them get the money then church though. But the hole thing starts to almost look like an accidental or possible on purpose money hiding trick.

      • aegerprimo

        I’m not saavy when it comes to law, nor educated in law, but if Dettmer had his license suspended and did some prison time, then case closed and justice has been served.

        • MostEthicalPimp

          Yes, but a bank robber for example who hides his money well enough. Can’t just start spending it when it gets out. It is still not his money. but then again am not a lawyer.

          • aegerprimo

            There is that, but the USA Constitution 5th amendment protects citizens from being tried for the same offence twice.
            Google….. “Double Jeopardy clause.”

            • MostEthicalPimp

              It wouldn’t be a new trail per se. The government would simple use the past conviction and paper work showing that it was fraudulently earned money to request a seizure or recovery order from a judge or maybe they could just use what ever recovery order was issued at the time.

            • aegerprimo

              I don’t think so. Read the USA Constitution. No there would not be another trial. No.

    • Anonymous

      I too have seen semi-recent repayments from FLAG, issued to individuals who wrote polite letters with a straight, non-threatening request for such, with full docs on the amount in question, with a copy to an attorney. The process was relatively low hassle and the amounts were in the mid five figures. Class V Orgs like Chicago have no money…my guess is that is the primary reason the Dettmer’s have not received a repayment from there.

      • MostEthicalPimp

        Did they have to agree to insane terms like reporting on other potential turn coats. Never speaking out about their abuses in ScienScamity?

        • Anonymous

          No…there was a relatively benign Release and Quit Claim IIRC, but that was it. They were all handled by mail.

      • Lady Squash

        Yes, I would agree. The Chicago org has no money. In theory, organizations are not supposed to spend money parishioners pay in advance for services, for just this reason. But I suspect they did. Too bad for the Dettmers. It’s hard to get blood from a turnip. Good luck.

      • They could do fundraising; ask their members for money to be able to repay people.

        Errr… wait. 😛

        • Anonymous

          This is almost certainly what will happen…if a decision is made to actually do the repayment. The fundraisers may or may not overtly state that is where the money raised will go.

          After almost ever large publicly acknowledged church loss where they are required to pay out monies in a suit there follows an enormous fundraising effort to restock (and more) the reserves from where the funds are paid out. Sometimes this is done openly on a mass scale and sometimes it is a more private effort where just the reliable whales are quietly contacted.

    • worstcultever

      Could these people actually be Miscavige ringers? I know, ridiculous, but we are talking LRH tech/Slappy insanity here. I appreciate how Tony puts things out there without much comment when they’re worth knowing generally but there’s also too much that’s uncontextifiable (omg, sorry to coin a new word a la LRH) .. anyway I trust Tony’s nose above anybody’s, re wherever this came from and ends up going.

      • aegerprimo

        I’m not sure what “Miscavige ringers” are, though I can guess. Yes, Tony has pointed out that the refunds to the Dettmers is… odd. Tony has a bloodhound nose. He gives us a whiff of what he smells to see how we run with it. (Non-metaphorically speaking, Tony has a habit of making us think.)

        I am going to run with… Scientology is always worse than you think.

        • MostEthicalPimp

          It maybe that IRS started asking question about people not receiving refunds…

          • aegerprimo

            What do you mean?
            Many Scientologists, especially after the 1993 IRS tax exemption status (501c) – were able to claim “donations” to the Co$ as tax deductible. This was a big deal to Scientologists donating lots of $$ to the church.

            • MostEthicalPimp

              Part of the agreement reached with the IRS was that those donations for service were being made for the PC’s own spiritual goodness as per exchange policies and ideas of COS. The church at the time maintained that you could get a full refund even for services delivered. Refresh for the celebration.

  • Sebastian L. Jackson

    If you’re doing nothing on Saturday night, please come help me edit the Going Clear pages on TVTropes. I think the section concerning solely the book has too little meat in it:

  • Sibs

    I just got the Freedumb Media & Ethics “Going Clear” attack ad from searching Last Week Tonight. For the first time, I mean… I haven’t seen it before doing this search. Still trying to attack HBO? Broken record much?

    • Snake Plissken

      Back in the day when the cult used to pay for ad links on the newsgroups, I used to make it a point to click on all of them. It was therapeutic knowing it was costing them money.

      • Sibs

        Well, that’s what I’m debating to myself right now. I don’t want to give it the view, but at the same time if it costs them more money…

        • Snake Plissken

          Might as well spend their money, so they can’t use it for causing more evil

          • Sibs

            Just changed my mind on watching any videos. Did my dishes so I can take cold medicine and go to bed – suddenly I’m not feeling well. Sadface.

            • MostEthicalPimp

              you must have connected up with an SP. haha, my guess is freedumb mag!!!

            • Super Power Wogsy

              Awww. Get well girl! I hear there is some flu going around the Bunker lately!

            • Sibs

              I’ve had a cold since Easter (off and on, at least, but it’s pretty much the same deal).

              Have I told the story already how the only time I’ve ever been to Clearwater was when I had the flu so bad I fainted at the Tampa airport and had to go to a hospital, and my friend’s parents took me to a place in Clearwater because the wait wouldn’t be as long?

              I guess I just said it. Oh well. G’night!

            • Super Power Wogsy

              omigoodness! i did not hear that! either way, take care of yourself and get some rest.

        • MostEthicalPimp

          think of it this way your helping to keep some poor guy off the RPF!

      • Todd Tomorrow

        I always did that and actually got some flack on here for doing that. They thought it would make the ad go to the top of the list. The funnest thing is to call the Craiglist ads when you are flagging them. It is illegal to tape them where I live, however, it is a barrel of laughs. Most of the time they can’t figure out what ads are running and who to transfer you to. They’ve gone so far as to give me their personal cell number. Little Missions, are a different story, in only that they truly have no idea what is going on at all. I figured that someplace else must be hired to place the ads and don’t let them know which ones are running. One lady said she saw Shelly M., over 11 years ago at some IAS, meeting. She knew nothing about her missing and acted very concerned.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Thankfully, BM and Co., have kept up with the free advertising. Gibney, should thank BM, Cruise, Krusty and Bob Duggan for plastering your hateful message so people will truly know how mean and desperate you knuckleheads really are.

  • aquaclara

    Totally off topic. For our Canadian friends.
    Jonathan Crombie, Gilbert Blythe from Anne Of Green Gables, has passed away. I am crushed.
    RIP, Jonathan.

    As I said, totally off topic. Pardon the interruption.

    • Sarah James

      Very sad. He was only 48.

    • VickiStubing

      Americans are fans, too. So sad, but thanks for sharing. I’m sure our media will not report it (he’s not a Kartrashian, after all).

    • worstcultever

      Don’t know him but sad and somber for all who did

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Two today,eh? That’s awful to my Canadian friend’s.

    • Ella Raitch


  • Wogsy Wonka

    What the hell??????? Did we all decide to get off the internet and enjoy our lives????

  • theThrillCC

    Apologies if this has been already posted but the CBS show “Elementary” had a scene about scientology in it’s latest episode and I thought some of you might enjoy seeing Sherlock Holmes’ take on the church:

    • Lady Squash


    • Juicer77

      That’s super. Jonny’s really fired up there. Wonder if they had some experts to talk to?

  • farmland

    love tory, it’s older but relevant

  • Good evening, fellow Bunkeroos! I hope everyone is enjoying this weekend.
    Check out the beer I discovered today – my inner teenager is rejoicing! It’s actually endorsed by Bruce Dickinson of Iron maiden. Decent taste/quality doesn’t hurt either. 😉 Cheers!

  • RK

    Something like this happened to the San Francisco Mission in the late 80’s or early 90’s. I believed they got a bank loan to repay the money. Chicago can do the same

  • Last summer, Scientology dropped 99 Internet domains in the crapper (out of their thousands). I don’t know if that was deliberate or just no one left in the office who knew what was going on.

    This was one of them:

    Great Xenu’s Ghost! The man was a lifeless wooden windbag of a writer when he was outside his journeyman skill of astounding yarns of adventure.

  • The Chicago Idle Org seems to have hit a permit snag on Thursday:

    650 S CLARK ST


    Name Completed Date Status


    I wonder what a “REVENUE REVIEW” is?

    • No permit applications listed for 3011 N Lincoln Ave, Chicago, IL 60657, the current org and House of Spray-Cheeze Window Repairs.

      • PappeKak

        Scientology, the Spray-Cheese ‘religion’

  • Obnosis

    Haven’t read all the other comments, but if it wasn’t mentioned, by filing a lawsuit, the Dettmers immediately became SP’s, as that is a “high crime” in Scientology. Asking for a refund doesn’t make you an SP (it usually makes you declared PTS), but filing a lawsuit makes you an SP for sure.

    • Super Power Wogsy

      That would have been easier to handle, at the time, when I was asking for a refund, but I was told I’d be declared an SP. damn.

      • Super Power Wogsy

        edited. no shame.

    • PappeKak

      Well, the ‘church’ wouldn’t want to draw undue attention to this point, would it?

      • joe

        I was told asking for your money back does make you an SP. I was told this after being told by a registrar that if I gave them the money which I was going to pay my rent with to buy courses that the money would come back to me two-fold. When no money came back and my landlord was evicting me I asked for my money back. It was then that I was told I would be declared an SP for doing so. They didn’t care that me and my child would be out on the street because of their lies.

        • PappeKak

          You were told whatever it takes to:


          – L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972

    • MostEthicalPimp

      I know I’ve said it before but my dad once got a few intensives refunded at flag because he complained about the auditor quality to David Mayo and we see where that got david mayo.

  • PappeKak

    “The names and connections, at this time, of the bitterly opposing enemy are: 1. Psychiatry and psychology (not medicine). 2. The heads of news media who are also directors of psychiatric front groups. 3. A few key political figures in the fields of “mental health” and education. 4. A decline of monetary stability caused by the current planning of bankers who are also directors of psychiatric front organizations [that] would make us unable to function.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 16 February 1969,

    • Todd Tomorrow

      ‘heads of news media who are also directors of psychiatric front groups’ Can they name one?

      • BlondesAreDumb

        Good guestion!

        • PappeKak

          The church of Scientology is IMO a criminal organization.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      “The names and rails, at this time, of the Guerilla opposing enemy are: 1. Pigs and law (not order). 2. The talking heads of TV who are also directors of popo front groups. 3. A few key political figures in the fields of “general well fair” and decency. 4. A decline of supply stability caused by the current planning of dealers who are also directors of popo front organizations [that] would make us unable to earn cheddar.”

      – M. Pimp Ethical, Player Communications Stable Rules Graffiti, 4 April 2015

  • Dave Reams

    So Dettmer was defrauding the government, stealing money from medicare, no, from people whose lives depended on medicare, and now gets hundreds of thousands of dollars cash in his pockets. This enema of my enemy is not my friend.

    (sorry to sound like FreeDum magazine)

    • PappeKak

      Nailing it.

    • Super Power Wogsy

      He’s a bullshitter for sure.

    • Dave Reams

      So Dettmer is a convicted felon, a person who has systematically stolen money from a health welfare fund. What does “The most ethical group on the planet incoorporated” do about this? Declare and expel him? No, they encourage and revel in his resourcefulness and continue to do what Scientology does best: Suck! (him dry)

    • Jenstnick

      At the least they admitted the negative parts of the story. It doesn’t matter if he was a sleeze or not a sleeze, if he has money on his accounts with the church, he is entitled to that money. He paid his debt in prison, nonetheless, they need to give him his money.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      Am wondering though if his Scientology donations overlap with his fraud…

      • Dave Reams

        He was an Scientologist before and after his jail term and made large donations before. One wonders if he resorted to fraud in order to survive in the face of mounting debts after he maxed out his credit cards buying boxes and boxes of basics?

        At any rate, of course I would like to see Scientology COBbed over this one and in turn I wish that the Federal government could recover some of these funds!

  • Looks like scientology Whalegeddon has begun.

    • Newiga

      Whalegeddon, I like that term.

      • I don’t recall stealing it, so I probably should copyright it.

        • We’ll steal it anyway!

          • I’m gonna track you down and sue your ass. Jk.

            • That’s just a bogus threat like COS used against Going Clear. Guess what: it didn’t work. 🙂

            • I was just flirting with you.

        • Newiga

          Definitely! Whalegeddon: noun /weɪlɡed.ən/: When rich clams FINALLY abandon the sinking ship that is Scientology

  • PappeKak

    “Somebody some day will say ‘this is illegal.’ By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 4 January 1966

    • MostEthicalPimp

      “Some-player one day will say ‘this is legit.’ By then be sure the pimps say what is legit or not.”

      – Most Ethical Pimp, Player Communications Stable Rules. 19 April 2015

  • PappeKak

    “There is no more ethical group on this planet than ourselves.”

    – L. Ron Hubbard, KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING. 7 February 1965, reissued 27 August 1980

    • MostEthicalPimp

      “There is no more ethical pimp on this planet than myself.”

      – Most Ethical Pimp, KEEPING GAME-LOGY WORKING. 19 April 2015

  • Super Power Wogsy
    • Super Power Wogsy

      Came across this article a few min ago. Either way, I’m out. Gnite Bunkerites! Please! Please! Please! Let there be some news of huge magnitude that makes it rain spaghetti and meatballs. Please!

    • Dave Reams

      The UK TV network’s loss is HBO’s gain as more people will pay them to stream this!

  • Tom Yozwiak

    My little wog brain just cannot fully understand $cilon. As far as I can tell, they take you up into a huge spaceship and make you sign a huge check, and if you refuse, they kill you.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      If you make a clay demo. I bet you’ll “get”.

  • It will be interesting to see what Freedumb mag will have to say when Tony’s book will come out in May.
    I bet it will be a lot of… crickets.

    • Newiga

      I can’t wait for our proprietor’s book! It’s going to be a page turner for sure.

      • There will be some very interesting revelations.

  • Jimmy Threetimes

    The very idea that the Church of Scientology may have found out about this lawsuit from reading the Bunker is so great. That is all.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+** RED X ** +–+ RED X *** Sunday the 19th of April
    Good morning Early Birds and Night Owls,

    Yesterday’s removals: Slightly better than Friday’s, Sacramento & Honolulu scraping in.

    To complete IRS form 13909: see Tony Ortega :
    And Jeffrey Swift :
    Write a personal letter to your congress person.

    RedX tips :
    Flag co$ lies :

    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    F5… Ranger by El Chief enhanced by DodoTheLaser for RedX, flickred by Aeger Primo

  • John Travolta is handling current scientology PR meltdown (and probably will be thrown under the bus when it fails even harder). David Miscavige and Tom Cruise trying to pull off real life Mission Impossible, me thinks.

    • HTC

      He looks awful

      • It comes with the territory.

      • Judith Sylvester

        Agreed. There is something off. Partly it’s the drooping black bow tie, the unpressed checked shirt, and the ill fitting jacket.

    • MostEthicalPimp

      Best part was this from a de la Carriere posting:

      Travolta pimped himself for the evening.
      Nancy Cartright was offered for $10,000.
      No bites. then $5000 still no bites.

      Even if Cartright paid me I wouldn’t take her into my stable it just wouldn’t be ethical.

      • MostEthicalPimp

        Also, I’d like to point out that MostEthicalPimp wouldn’t charge 25k for an evening with Travolta, he’s just not worth it!!!

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      Unusally older crowd for red-carpet groupies.

      I realize this was a fundraiser event, but the general admission tickets were a reasonably priced $35. I’m thinking the crowd was mostly scilons.

    • Tom Yozwiak

      That is one hell of a rug ol Johnnie is sporting.

      • Sydjazz

        Surprised he can afford it after all the regging and probably sec checks

  • This post has <1,000 comments? I am disappoint. 🙂

    • Tom Yozwiak

      I can come up with a comment 36 words long & post it 1 word at a time, then, voila! 1000!

    • Rumor has it, OSA/RTC wrote a petition to White House on limiting comments here and it got approved.
      Sorry, theta buddy.

      • EnthralledObserver

        And Tony thinks those petitions are a waste of time and effort… *purses lips*

      • Sid

        It only had 12 signatures on it but one of the signatures was David Miscavige and it was on a check for a million dollars.

      • Pierrot

        Hi Dodo, please contact me by email at pgm dot anon at gmail dot com, I have a message from a friend to forward to you.

    • Mooser

      The weather is great this weekend, all over the country. People are getting out! It’ll pick up later.

    • Tree

      Now it has a thousand.

  • Tom Yozwiak

    Wogsy posted this link downstream a bit. I think it’s worthwhile to repost. The darn UK seems to be a bit scared to let Going Clear be seen there –

    • EnthralledObserver

      Wish they would nut up and just let them sue. Make Miscavige appear in court!

      • Tom Yozwiak


      • 1subgenius

        Because he wouldn’t have to under UK Law.

  • Centerpoint

    So in part of Dettmer’s legal process of Medicaid fraud did the
    Feds (Medicaid) work out a restitution agreement with Dettmer? In “following
    the money trail” to prosecute Dettmer for Medicaid fraud the Fed’s would have
    identified funds stored in Scientoology coffers. Knowing that at any time
    during the case did the Feds even ATTEMPT to obtain a restitution agreement from
    Dettmer? Any plea agreements? If not done then did the Fed’s attempt to make a “restitution
    agreements” with Dettmer while renewing his chiropractic license?

    If Fed’s did NOTHING to “capture defrauded TAXPAYERS funds”
    then Dettmer won the lottery of stupid moves by the Feds and keeps the $106,903.81 returned to him by Scientoology. Is this another example of the Fed’s fear of Scientoology
    and their willingness to pass on healthcare fraud losses onto taxpayers? It was
    TAXPAYER’s money defrauded yet it appears a convicted felon escapes any avenue
    of restitution of OUR money with the added benefit of renewing his license and getting
    $106,903.81 back from Scientoology. Then likely using that money to hire a lawyer
    to get the final amount of $77,810.00, out of Scientoology’s coffers. Is this
    whole “religious rights” thing disallowing our Government from doing whatever
    is legally necessary to return some or any of the Healthcare money defrauded
    from taxpayers? FOIA anyone?

    • richelieu jr

      You and I are clearly thinking in the same direction..

      I am no expert, however, very far from it..

      @jpcapitlaist? @OTVIIIis Great?

  • I never understood those folks who put tons of money on account, and I find it hard to understand how you could pay over $70K at a local org. I always paid for something before I did it, then consider it just the price of doing business, finding out about $cientology. After Clear, already knowing what OT3 was about due to the Revolt in the Stars script, and sick of “OTs” who were arrogant and condescending about the levels they’d done, I was never “gung ho” (Chinese for “pull together” – $cientology term) about trudging up that expensive “Bridge.” And I didn’t. But God bless those folks for getting refunds and I hope they get it all back.

    • richelieu jr

      Just curious, Skip– How did you put the “Revolt in the Stars’ nonsense together with the Oh-So Holy, Pneumonia-Inducing, Fearsome Freewheeling for the Foolishly Curious, Back-breaking, nearly Hubbard-killing (can’t they do ANYTHING right?), sacredly scrawled, spiritual space-opera, straight from the Commodore’s beak, OTIII nonsense?

      Surely someone leaked the info to you so you knew the two were the same?

      I must say I ma very impressed and quite happy you managed to putt wo and two together and realize they pointed to the EXIT! Good on you!

      (And if I had to say one thing that I think not only puts the lie to Scientology irrefutably, but also encapsulates Hubbard’s megalomania, lack of understanding of Hollywood, human beings, storytelling, and shall we say a ‘intermittent and inconsistent’ relationship with consistency and reality, the one thing I think should wake every OT up and create a massive, sucking and popping sounds as they pull their heads from their posteriors in unison, it would be:

      Hubbard’s repeated, in pulbic, written texts and pronouncements and personal and formal warnings that any hint of the contents of OTIII would cause one to “Freewheel” out of control and probably die (as the first readersof his work had) of pneumonia or somehting worse. He nortonly hinted at horrors he said he hilself had barely escaped with his life, breaking his back (i believe) and nearly dying himself. He said he was quite sure he was the first to escape with this knowledge alive! Any image or idea or evena ltter of the story would restimulate and enturbulate anyone not carefully prepared and on their guard to the point of madness and death from lack of sleep or worse…

      AND YET….

      After Star Wars, he is willing to apparently risk the entire human race in order to jump on the Space Opera gravy train, (the Great Writer being unable to come up with any other idea than this one that nearly fills part of an entire sheet of paper with his jagged, uneven alcoholic drug addict’s scrawl), to propose to every studio openly, the contents of the Great Secret that people having slaved for him and given fortunes for DECADES were not fit to see;

      — But hey– You have a production company, or script reader willing to wade through this turgid crap? Hop aboard, it’s a sure-fire money maker! Just look at how much I’ve made on it without ever writing it out or showing it to anyone!

      And even after, still swearing “It’ll kill ya! It really will! “(unless you cough up the cash and keep watching the needle!) (full disclosure: I also coughed up cash and watched a needle for a coupe of years, but it was lot less expensive and got me EXACTLY what was promised and where I wanted to go and therte was no premiminary studying necessary, nor did I have to listen to some fat blowhard with a sebaceous cyst on his head do the same magic trick in every module, pulling shit out of his ass, an act most of us do in private for free, and neither ashamed nor proud about), he then asked J eff Hawkins to include the Volcano images and other ‘hints’ that were supposed to be so deadly on the cover of what he wished ot become Bestselling books to ‘stimulate’ our Wog memories and get us to go buy his Word Salad in a Paperback Cover.

      No danger, or at least none that wasn’t worth the 5 bucks he’d get on the sale.

      How on Earth could anyone who knew the truth stay silent?

      Because far from wanting the save the world, they just now wanted to look cool and not let anyone know they had relaly been such idiots (and to keep picking up their commissions when possible).Others wanted to remain in power.

      And every single one of them had grown addicted to thinking their shit didn’t stink and that they were better than us (us ‘wogs’, of course, but most especially all the other Scilons!

      As a filmmaker and someone who actuallys cen LRH’s vaunted photography and ‘films’, I cannot imagine that I would have believed inhim for anohter d-second when I watched him expound onhow to make films in the same pompous, ‘hail-fellow-well-met’, “ain’t we stinkers?’, Town Hall ‘How to Make Frinds and Influence People” Elks Lodge President speechifying nonsense.

      I, for one,understand why Haggis feels embarrassed. So would I. So should everyone else in that position. I certainly hope he gets over it soon as he has doe so much good after not really doing al that much harm to anyone but himself and his family.

      Thought at least he wasn’t a ‘Warrior’ or a ‘Reg’ or anyone in power.

      He was just foolish, not culpable and a cog in an evil machine. He can credibly claim to a dupe.

      Can someone ina position to know tell me how they reconciled this ‘OTIII/”Revolt in the Stars”/ Dianetics Volcano Commercial” contradiction and, let’s face it– Incontrovertable proof of lying about what was considered The Wall of Fire, Scientology’s Make it or Break it, Separate the Men from The Boys (and girls from their prediliction for infidelity, botched abortion attempts and hatefully and selfishly destroying their children’s lives) Moment of Truth! The Moment the Nearly Killed Even Hubbard the GREATEST MAN WHO EVER LIVED—

      How did you make this work? Haggis said he thought it might be an ‘insanity test’ which is about the best rationalization can imagine, but hen even he quickly realized that no, this Alpo was meant to be swallowed and savoured.

      So how did it taste?

      • As for Hubbard’s film, you know how difficult it is to make a good one, so I didn’t think much of the crap that came out of “Gold” – I just figured they were staff amateurs, and I’d been around plenty of those.

        RITS and OT3 – First, Yvonne Jentzsch told me she helped nurse Hubbard back to health after he broke his back getting through “The Wall of Fire.” I couldn’t figure out how the broken back might happen so I just filed it to the side. Then she told me about getting auditing and remembering where her spaceship was buried. I asked why she didn’t go get it and she told me it wasn’t safe. Yvonne was really full of shit some times, like most Sea Org “officers.”

        So when I read RITS I was hanging around with Nan Herst, who was OT3 and doing upper levels. She told me Elwrong’s signature had been forged on the contract with A Brilliant Film Company (they were the laughing stock of Hollywood for using that name). I was also doing word processing for law firms and I happened to work for a firm that A Brilliant was using. I went and looked at Elwrong’s contract and saw that he’d receive $666,000 on the first day of principal photography – how convenient and “The Beast-ly.”

        Prior to that I was being repped by a top agent at ICM whose secretary was an OT3. She and her partner wanted to produce one of my properties as a movie. Over lunch one day I told her I’d read RITS and she was amazed (not many $cientologists had read it). So I told her the story and she said “That’s the OT3 story!” And I said, “I know.” with a smug smile. I didn’t know, but I did once she told me.

        Then someone (maybe Yvonne) told me that the new thinking was that seeing the movie would restimulate the public enough that they would flock to the cult and be urged to fly up the Bridge and we could clear the planet faster. I knew he’d been using the image / restimulation stuff for a long time, so I thought “Maybe…”

        Prior to that, while still on CC staff, I’d discovered all of Hubbard’s sci-fi stuff and mentioned it in letters to public and Yvonne told me not to, didn’t want to mention that – he was a philosopher now, not a sci-fi writer. But I remembered how she and Heber and some others had been all hot for a sci-fi story in 1973 called “Safespace” by a $cientologist named Bob Young (not the Guardian’s Office guy) in which it was heavily hinted Elwrong had been Jesus in a past life, gotten grabbed by aliens and put in an electronic prison, and was now back on Earth (having escaped) and ready to free this prison planet.

        Two-faced, full of shit, confused, true believer, who knows – that was Yvonne and so many of the “we’re the cool kids” like her husband Heber.

        But boy, very shortly after $cientologist Lon Tinney was a production manager on “Star Wars” the whole RITS thing started rolling and suddenly it was OK again to be a sci-fi writer and that didn’t seem to conflict with being a “philosopher” after all.

        But I didn’t have the full picture yet, most of my friends were clams, so I kept going to find out more… I’m just pugnacious like that.

        • richelieu jr

          Great, great stuff, Skip!

          Funny, I was at ICM too!

          I knew all the restimulation stuff was being sold (I presume Hubbard was runningon emptya nd out of inspiration and os trotting outthe ‘greatest hits’…)

          One of my cosest friends worked on Star Wars (won the Oscar, inf act) and he told me he’d known Tinney, said he was the only Scilon he’d ever known–as far as he knew; I asked what he could remember of the guy; ” A lot of talk’, ‘No idea what he was doing there’, “had a really strange coat”.

  • Violet

    The arbitration procedure is a smart, if diabolical idea. In California, arbitration is considered a “favored” procedure, and once there’s an arbitration award, the burden is very high to have a court vacate it. I’m assuming all Scientology arbitrations come out in favor of Scientology. Vacating an arbitration award is much more difficult than a normal appeal procedure. Even if you prove the decision was wrong, the court will let it stand. I’m sure other states have similar laws.

    I assume the judge in this case will make them go back and do the kangaroo court arbitration, and then they will have to file a petition to vacate, which are rarely granted. Sorry to be such a Debby Downer, but I have handled a lot of cases for patients and consumers who signed one-sided arbitration agreements. The courts love to enforce enforce them because it gets it off the judge’s docket.

    • scottmercer

      Are you new here? There is no arbitration procedure in Scientology. They say there is, but one has never been done in history and there are no rules in place for one. That was part of the lawsuit.

      • Violet

        Hi, longtime lurker, recent poster. I took it judges were sending them to arbitration because of this sentence in the article: “The Garcias have filed a motion to reconsider
        after a federal judge granted Scientology’s motion to compel the
        Garcias to take their grievances to the church’s internal arbitration
        scheme.)” I assumed Scientology had, or is at least claiming it has, a requirement to arbitrate before going to court. Of course, even if they did, I would assume it was complete Bulls**t.

  • Ever met an SP?

    ‘The lawsuit is so new, Scientology doesn’t even know it’s coming yet, says Fred Pfenninger, the Indianapolis attorney for the Dettmers, who spoke with us yesterday. “They don’t even know, to my knowledge, that it’s been filed. We have not sent the summonses out,” he said.’

    Hah! This brings up hilarious images of David Miscavige logging on daily to the Underground Bunker to find out what’s going on in his church.

  • Richard

    While searching for a different word that meant ‘footbullet’, Google sent me to the ‘Urban Dictionary’ and I saw this:


    1. Evidence that a person or organization has shot themselves in the foot.

    2. Performance of a colossal screw-up while trying to further a public figure’s agenda. Particularly regarding
    the Church of Scientology.