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Scientology and Past Lives: Was L. Ron Hubbard Actually Serious?

A funny thing happened on Thursday. We reviewed Vance Woodward’s book, Addicted to Scientology, and noted that one of the more interesting things in it was Woodward’s contention that a close reading of Scientology’s foundational texts convinced him that L. Ron Hubbard thought of past-life therapy as a form of make-believe.

Scientologists, however, take very seriously the idea that when they go through “auditing” and bring up memories from millions or billions of years ago they are making use of an exact science and their memories are very real.

On the same day we brought up Woodward’s doubts about that, over at Marty Rathbun’s blog, the former church executive did something really remarkable: he surveyed his readership about this very issue.

So on this Saturday, we’re going to take a closer look at the responses to Rathbun’s survey as well as Vance Woodward’s insights about Hubbard in order to answer a fascinating question:

When L. Ron Hubbard said you could hook yourself up to an e-meter and see yourself slaying enemies billions of years ago in another part of the galaxy, did he actually expect anyone to take him seriously?

First, we want to point out how remarkable it is that Rathbun is asking his readers about their past-life experiences.

Even ex-Scientologists can be touchy about this stuff, as we found out when we asked several of them to describe their “whole track” stories several months ago.

But Rathbun has shown repeatedly that he’s interested in challenging the members of the “independent Scientology” movement. If the Church of Scientology is known for slavish, doctrinaire adherence to the literal word of L. Ron Hubbard, Rathbun has encouraged the “indies” to consider the words of other philosophers, to take some of Hubbard’s words with a grain of salt, and even to think of some important Scientology ideas as more metaphor than literal truth.

And now, he’s asking them to talk publicly about their past-life adventures — yet another thing we can’t imagine the church itself doing.

Rathbun asked his readers to consider three questions. The first asked them how they knew their past-life memories were real — were they just convinced of it, or had they ever found any external evidence to corroborate their tales? Second, he asked if auditors had ever determined their subject to be a reincarnated Scientologist, and could they then determine the previous church member who had been reincarnated? And finally, he asked what happened to their immortal souls — thetans, in Scientology lingo — between lives. Rathbun has received more than 100 responses.

For our purposes, we’ll focus on the first question. Most respondents chose the answer “A,” which meant that they came to believe in their past-life memories without any outside evidence.

On occasion, a note of skepticism showed up:

“No longer certain these were perceptions of past lives or I just wanted to believe they were.”

But some claimed that they had found actual historical evidence to back up what they had remembered in a past life. (We imagine these must be relatively recent, and not of the billion-year-old variety).

And then there was this gem:

“Looked up historical events after the fact of recalling them in session. Could not otherwise have known of them. On a number of occasions became furious at the way history misrepresented events and twisted the facts.”

Overall, the message was clear: the independent Scientologists who responded to Rathbun’s blog overwhelmingly believed that they have genuinely remembered actual events from their past lives during their auditing.

But did Hubbard really intend for that to happen?

In Addicted to Scientology Vance Woodward describes his 22-year journey in the church, and repeatedly points out that he got much more from Hubbard’s books and lectures than from the auditing offered at the orgs in Winnipeg and San Francisco.

Woodward says more than once in his book that few of the Scientologists he knew actually read Hubbard’s works carefully.

At several points in his book, Woodward provides entertaining cogitations on the details in Hubbard’s work. We found this passage, about past lives, particularly fun…

In the end of 1952, LRH gave a lecture series entitled the Philadelphia Doctorate Course, or PDC. It is the seminal lecture series on the definition and capabilities of OT. It’s a perennial favorite among the Scientologists, the literate ones. In one of the lectures, LRH tells the audience that they have the ability to recall not just their own past lives, but they can also recall, for instance, the history of the room that they are sitting in, going all the way back in time. He says they can even recall alternate histories of the room. And he invites them to do it. That suggests to me that LRH’s idea of past lives was subjective, that is, 100% imagination.

He says that a person can have overlapping past lives. That is, two of your past lives could overlap in time. It’s no big deal. That leads me to the same conclusion, auditing on past lives is potentially therapeutic but is completely fabricated storytelling.

We asked Woodward for his thoughts on the responses at Rathbun’s survey, and he sent us several interesting thoughts. We’ll finish up with one of his statements…

Hey, if you think you lived before and have memories of it, great. But I hope you don’t expect anybody to believe you. Or, if a little girl believes her doll is a sentient being, so be it. It makes her feel good and hurts nobody under most circumstances. I think we all agree on that. But once money and behavior control get involved, most people rightly lose their sense of humor very quickly. So, sure, do whatever floats your boat. But let’s not pretend we’re having a scientific discussion here.

OK, now it’s your turn. We’d love to hear your thoughts on Scientology and past lives. We have no doubt our commenting community has much to say on the subject!

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  • ohreally

    Tom Cruise once told me he killed Hitler in a past life. I think he really believes he did it.

    • burythenuts

      Didn’t Hitler commit suicide?..oh wait…I am sure Tom meant he killed Hitler when Hitler wasn’t Hitler. Perhaps at that particular time on the track Hitler was just a regular Joe…perhaps walking too close to the railroad tracks on Venus when ChooChoo Engineer Tom…(we will call him Steve along this particular part of “his track”)
      Anyway, Engineer “Steve” mows down regular Joe (Hitler).
      The lesson in this is remember to take those ear buds out of your ears kiddies when nearing the train tracks. This applies to any planet or galaxy be it (as Carl Sagan used to say) BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of years past or into the future.
      Oh, and Tom Cruise is a douche bag.

      • John Onthego

        I wonder what level Cruise did to push him into dramatization? His acting sucks, but he’s great at dramatizing.

    • sugarplumfairy

      I’m pretty sure I dated tom cruise in a past life.. but he kept staring at my incisors.. made me very uncomfortable..

    • Chocolate Velvet

      Is that why he did Valkyrie? A little typecasting?

      • Tom actually only accept roles that are consistent with his past life experiences (he can’t act you see)

    • sugarplumfairy

      Hey.. Wait a minute.. If Tom killed hitler and hitler committed suicide.. doesn’t that mean…..??

      • Observer


    • Sid Snakey

      Oh my God….Is that what whole-track auditing is about? Making up for your perceived deficiencies by consoling yourself with the fact that elsewhere on your track you have actually been the person you wish you were?

      In this life Tom Cruise is a pampered movie-star who knows his real persona is far from an action hero saving the planet, but thanks to Scientology Tom believes that his thetan is capable of taking down one of the most evil SPs in the entire history of the universe. I guess for Tom, such knowingness has got to be worth a few million dollars.

      Although I agree with a lot of Vance has to say, I’m not sure I agree that living in some fantasy world isn’t in some way harmful.

      The huge lie in Scientology is that they have this amazing truth about the reality of life, when really it’s just Ron’s fantasy. I think living in Ron’s fantasy universe is not healthy, even if it makes you temporarily feel good about yourself.

      In the scientific understanding of the real world, with its beauty and its horror, there is at least reality. Religion, mysticism, the supernatural realm – these are all methods of escape from reality. If man were better educated in the sciences, we would not have such poison as Scientology.

  • EnthralledObserver

    One of Marty’s responders, Grasshopper, made this statement in their response:

    “This is why when non-Scientologists talk about us believing in “aliens” I know they don’t get it. The fact is, we are all beings, all in this together, some of us here, and some of us there. Cheap ’50s sci-fi has polluted the minds of otherwise smart people.”
    I tried to remind them all that L Ron Hubbard was one such cheap ’50’s sci-fi author – duh! And made my own suggestion that the otherwise smart people who’d had their minds polluted were “Scientologists” – but Marty didn’t let that one go through…
    Ah well…

    • Nojoking

      LOL It’s the thought that counts and you did your best. I get what you’re saying and I’m just one that leads to another and another 😀

  • I read “Dianetics in Limbo” a month or so ago and was intrigued that Helen O’Brien’s impression of early dianetics was that the dianetics process (pre-e-meter at the time) invariably resulted in past life experiences and that Hubbard was reluctant to consider this phenomenon in expanding the practice. Helen O’Brien was among those earlier practitioners who felt that the past life experience was a key element to be investigated, studied and expanded. I was left feeling that Hubbard accidentally stumbled onto something esoteric and then didn’t know what to do about it.

    Dived into Hugh Urban’s latest book shortly after that and was reminded that there is evidence in Hubbard’s writings over 15 years or so pre-dianetics to confirm that he was playing with ideas both psychic and psychological.

    My own view is that our senses are constantly recording information and our conscious mind processes but a fraction of that. Dreams and visions could simply be sub-conscious processing of stored sensations. Oliver Sachs relates some interesting stories about brain defects creating incredibly lucid and believable visions.

    Still, I was almost tempted reading “Dianetics in Limbo” to try out what was described as a sure-fire method of experiencing past lives – just for a lark.

    • B.B. Broeker

      This seems about right to me. In the years after Scientology has been firmly established, the herd waited for LRH to announce discoveries. But at the beginning, when Dianetics was booming, there was still a chance for Dianeticists to get out in front of Hubbard. And that may well be what happened with whole track stories. LRH didn’t originally anticipate how essential they would become to auditing, but once he observed how popular and powerful they could be, he began incorporating them more and more into the then still inchoate cosmology of “Scientology.”

      The PDC lectures were given, IIRC, in 1952 – at the very beginning f what Hubbard was then just beginning to term Scientology. He was still – more than usual – making it up as he went along. (I don’t mean to imply that he wasn’t sincere; my point is simply that he was developing an entirely new spiritual movement on the fly. It’s not entirely relevant to this discussion whether he did so earnestly or as a con.) But as the years went on, past life/whole track theory became more and more fixed and canonical, to the point where I don’t believe you could really be a KSW Scientologist and choose not to believe in a historical whole track.

      The PDC is important, sure, but only a “PDC theetie-weetie” like Ron Miscavige would pretend it somehow trumps hundreds of thousands of subsequent LRH writing.

      • Someday, the church events, hopefully, will all be available.

        We’ve had sections of some of the late 1980s, early 1990s, events, where “Wholetrack” research by LRH, was all neatly, simplistically but neatly none the less, laid out by “LRH Biographer” Danny Sherman.

        And even before Sherman’s heydays as “source” briefer to us, at events, there was Ray Mitoff, who occasionally did some pretty significant, like less than a half dozen in total, briefings of Hubbard’s evolution of his tech.

        But I distinctly recall the “Wholetrack” briefing, either by Sherman or Mitoff, one event. Only a 5 minute summary of LRH references, which was pretty good.

        The Scientology exorcism churches in their Advance Magazine, the editor, Jeff Hawkins, did do, I seem to recall, a number of sporadic feature articles about past lives beliefs, other practices, and how LRH improved, as always, on the whole track pastlives “technology”.

        I myself, when I first purchased, with my staff pay, the Research and Discovery first couple volumes, one of my goals was read the exact tape lecture transcripts where LRH discusses past lives as more than just the Freudian allowance attitude, which Hubbard does even mention in one or another of the first couple books, I’ll have to look up which, but also in the red volume 1 or 2, LRH cautions about NOT invalidating the patient who gives up past lives incidents in answer to the probing auditor (pseudo-therapist) questioning.

        I am almost positive that also Harriet Whitehead in her 1987 “Renunciation and Reformulation” and also Roy Wallis in his 1976-77 “The Road to Total Freedom” (very much underdiscussed book, it’s a tough one to read), both the two of them discuss the Hubbard coming to accept past lives as more than just the therapeutic benefit that long term psychoanalysts already had discovered.

        Hubbard went from accepting past lives would resolve some patient’s woes, to accepting the past lives as really real.

        I think the L. Ron Hubbard junior stories, told by Jim Dincalci, Jim has pretty much nailed that it was drug use, that slipped in, during that “research” that the past lives stuff was real!

        So between L. Ron Hubbard junior, Ray Mitoff’s research, Sherman’s research, and LRH’s own writings, that the truth is pretty much there, how Hubbard came to believe his “research” into past lives “proved” them.

        The old Emeter of that time, I know when you read in red volume 1 I think, Hubbard felt that the then version of the Emeter was a validating scientific device, that proved to Hubbard, that these past life incidents were “real.”

  • Vistaril

    Of course L Ron Hubbard was serious about past lives. One of the great Scientology texts, The History of Man, was originally titled “What to Audit” and states: ” . . . [this] is a coldblooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years . . . “. Nothing metaphorical in that statement, and so it is with everything L Ron Hubbard wrote, and he wrote a lot. Surely, if it was his intention that his “science” be taken metaphorically, he would have written in a metaphorical style? But, no. He didn’t. In fact, the Scientology Axioms, the fundamental, bedrock logic upon which the entire edifice is predicated, state explicitly that the “exact time form place and event” must be “duplicated” if “charge” is to be released, and the Thetan freed from its bounds. This is reiterated throughout Scientology and particularly when it comes to the Xenu story. In the processing tech instructions which accompany the Xenu story one will find HCO BULLETIN OF 15 NOVEMBER 1978 – Dating and Locating. In there you will find a direct reference to the pertinent Scientology Axioms, specifically, Axioms 30 and 38:

    . . . Axiom 30: The general rule of auditing is that anything which is
    unwanted and yet persists must be thoroughly viewed, at which time it
    will vanish.”

    Excerpt from Axiom 38: “… Truth is the exact time, place, form and
    event…. Thus we see that the discovery of Truth would bring about an
    As-is-ness by actual experiment . . .

    The HCOB goes on:

    . . . A thetan knows that if he could remember the exact place a thing
    had been generated, the exact time and the exact conditions, and the
    exact person who did it, he would then get a disappearance of the thing.

    Dating is the action the auditor takes to help the pc spot the exact time
    something happened.

    Locating is the action the auditor takes to help the pc spot the exact
    place something happened.

    By dating and locating, getting the exact time and place a specific
    thing happened, the pc is able to blow the mass and energy connected
    with the occurrence which has hung him up at that point . . .

    In a subject like Scientology, where it only works if it is applied exactly as Hubbard wrote it and without alteration, and all instances of bad results are because it has been altered from exactly and only what Hubbard wrote, the label “literal-minded” is hardly a bad thing to a Scientologist. Is the suggestion really that fter using a dictionary to
    clear each definition of every word to full conceptual understanding, using “false data stripping” to ensure Scientologists are understanding exactly what was written, and then demonstrating the passage “exact
    time, form, place and event” in clay, Scientology must then remember not to take it literally? Gimme a break.

    Obvious “acceptable truth” is obvious, and so too is the desperation ex-cult Scientologists are exhibiting in their efforts to lure the doubtful into the mind fuck.

    • Tye Solaris

      Thank You.

      As a little aside, there is a place in the Black Hills of South Dakota where Water does run Up Hill.

      Just sayin.

    • scnethics

      Thanks for putting this together. There is a mountain of evidence that Hubbard did want scientologists to believe past lives were real. He said past life memories could overlap, but he also said that a thetan could live in more than one body at once, living separate lives, unaware that he was doing it. He was a master liar, and I do believe these were cover-your-ass measures to handle any instances where someone remembered themselves being two different important historical figures and then discovering later they lives overlapped.

      • villagedianne

        Actually, souls with overlapping lives and lives on other planets are concepts that did not originate with Hubbard. I’ve read these ideas elsewhere. Hubbard does not seem to have had many original ideas.

      • John Onthego

        Psychiatry calls it Multiple Personality Syndrome.

    • FistOfXenu

      If LRH didn’t believe in past lives why did he waste so much time and money sailing around checking out the places he claimed he’d been in his own past life? Looking for treasure he buried and all that? Why did he claim he’d been Cecil Rhodes in a past life?

      • Observer

        My feeling is that he started it to make money per the infamous and numerous “the best way to make a million dollars is to start a religion” statements, but that as time went on and his mental instability increased he was eventually overtaken by his delusion. My belief is that by the time of his death he genuinely believed it all.

        • HyperionCorp

          Agreed. I think he drove himself nuts, and believed his lies in the end.

          • John Onthego

            In the end I think his mind was mush from the repeated strokes, isolation, loss of reality, and lack of decent medical care. It was easier and more enriching for Miscavige and Denk to let him disintegrate.

      • John Onthego


    • This is a great post.

      L Ron Hubbard, and all subsequent leaders in Scientology, including David Miscavige and Marty Rathbun, practice doling out explanations which reduce the dissonance that Scientologists feel when they are confronted with facts that contradict Scientology teaching.

      Telling Scientologists “Don’t take it so literally”, and even condemning people for taking things in Scientology literally, is astoundingly insulting. But Scientologists don’t even notice the insult because they feel a reduction of uneasiness at having to face the fact that DC8s can not fly through interstellar space, there were no volcanoes in Hawaii 75 million years ago, and Hubbard was never blinded and crippled in World War II.

      They forget all the clay demos, starrate checkouts, doll drilling, MU finding to eliminate alterations in application, and the commandments that Scientology must be applied 100% standardly which REQUIRES a literal interpretation of the texts. They can forget all that instantly, as long as the explanation their leader gives them aligns with their present belief, and they do not have to alter their “universe” in any way.

      To a Scientologist, it doesn’t matter if it’s true, it only matters if it FEELS true. Marty’s, Dave’s, and Ron’s insults of them are fine, as long as the insults “indicate”, and make them feel blown out and fluffy again.


    • Good post. However, there is one error and it is an error I point out whenever I come across it. The line “Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is what gives the appearance of insanity,” is a common misquote of Einstein. The actual quote is “Doing the same experiment over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.” In an experiment, all factors are controlled and so the result is the same with each repetition. When “thing” is substituted for “experiment” we get a falsehood. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the essence of rehearsing, practicing and training – all of which are valid activities and not the product of an unbalanced mind. Just saying.

  • BosonStark

    I’m going to state the obvious Tony, and Vance Woodward touched on it — money. In Dianutty, Dr. Hubtard took his cuckoo back only as far as the prenatal period, when the sperm is swimming toward the expectant egg. That’s when overhearing harmful words, like if the sperm heard something during his swim, all hell could break lose and a person would needs lots and lots of auditing to take care of it. Paulette Cooper recounted an excellent story about this. This was all very “scientific” to Dr. Hubtard and his followers at the time.

    When members themselves started bringing up past lives during auditing sessions, Dr. Hubtard resisted the notion at first. It wasn’t factual, like His scientific knowingness. Yet hearing more and more accounts of this happening in auditing, Dr. Hubtard soon realized his many suitcases would be bulging with cash, obviously because auditing could be drawn out for an indefinite period of time — much longer than if you just audited out preset-life problems. It would also draw in some reincarnation-believing raw meat, if they got wind of what auditing could do.

    Although I believe Dr. Hubtard wanted his dupes to take past lives literally, it was also fine if they didn’t, or if they didn’t bother with it, like Paul Haggis, as long as they kept paying in, like Paul Haggis.

    I can appreciate that in order to console the mind f’kd (“No, it’s not you or Dr. Hubtard, it’s Miscavige”), as well as start to fill his suitcases of cash the best he can, Dr. Marty Rathbun, Esquirrel has to depart from many of Dr. Hubtard’s science facts.

    Dr. Hubtard wasn’t big on facts or reality. Consider his amphetamine-fueled confusion over Xemu or Xenu. It was all about the money.

    • sugarplumfairy


      • I think the real question is, what is Marty up to? ive been reading his blog for about a year now, and the independants see him as much more than an ex member of the COS. There is real hero worship for him in their posts. They come to him for auditing and with questions about text. With corporate Scientology seemingly coming apart at the seams, and DM is probably going to be indicted sooner or later, there is going to be a void in leadership. He wants scientologists to know that he believes strongly in the teachings and philosophies of LRH. Power Play?

        • ze moo

          Marty has stated that Lrh’s teachings can be questioned and even changed. I think he wants to be the Martin Luther of a kinder, gentler scam. I doubt that current culties would allow him back, Davey has tarred him with the SP brush mighty carefully. I think Marty really likes to play with Davey and the corporate Co$. Davey is going to be spending the next week wondering what Marty is up to also. “Heavy lies the head that wears the crown.” Especially if you’re a paranoid mofo like Miscabitch.

          • HyperionCorp

            I was just thinking the same thing about “the Martin Luther of a kinder, gentler scam.”

            For a long time I have thought scientology could be extensively modified to attract a wider following. Make it cheaper, be open about its beliefs, and welcome honest dialogue. The problem is still LRH, but making the scam kinder and gentler would still attract people. If you are going to be a scientologist, and it’s Miscabitch’s version versus the current version of Marty’s, that’s an easy choice. And of course Marty knows the “tech” better than Miscabitch.

            • The Martin Luther theory is an excellent example. A more user friendly type of scam. I read on some blog, that an indie said it only cost $2000 for an auditing session with Marty, and it would of cost him $12,000 with the church of Scientology. As far as current cultists not following Marty, when the church starts to spin out of control, they will be seeking a leader.I dont know of anybody in the Scientology corporate structure that has the gravitas to take over other than Marty.They are all in lockdown or have the left the cult. The rank and file Scientologists are too weak to practice Scientology on their own. He has already stated that he plans a book for the current members explaining his independent movement. There is hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars at stake here.

            • Valkov

              Marty is on record as saying he has no fixed donation scheme, that a person pays him whatever they feel his auditing is worth and not upfront.

    • Chocolate Velvet

      That is rule number one in L Ron’s con. Make that money and send it up the lines to the “Source”, or the keeper of his poison legacy. That has never changed.

      • class6survivor

        Why the combative avatar?
        Try love.

        • Zer0

          Because it’s funny? Are you the new troll?

        • burythenuts

          I think you have developed a crush on Chocolate Velvet…Your obsessing.
          Smoke a bowl and chill out.

    • Journalists follow the money trail.

      Scholars, eventually, get around to reading ALL of the writings of a author who inlfuences.

      Hubbard’s own money sat on pallets, in EU banks, Kima Douglas and others, did the “missions” to go check up on the pallets of Hubbard’s and the church’s wealth, each on their separate pallets.

      With Hubbard living in his pull along trailer, when he went to visit live with Jack Parsons, at the beginning of Dianetics, and then with Hubbard dying in his Bluebird mobile home sitting next to his never completely satisfactorily reno’d ranch house there at the Creston ranch where Hubbard died, and reading over his requests for the things he used in his life, he was NOT some totally extreme money using cult leader.

      He didn’t have a fleet of luxury cars (Rolls Royces not, he had a Cadillac and earlier a Jaguar).

      He had his motorcycles, not even as tricked out and expensive as Miscavige’s or Tom Cruise’s!

      His Author Services Inc final years requests and orders, tell where he wanted the overwhelming bulk of inheritance to go, I know, I read that traffic.

      He ordered that when the non profit status was gained for the corporation that became CST, he ordered the bulk of his wealth go to that corporation. The CST corporation was charged with Hubbard’s archives project orders.

      Getting the tax exemption for that whole long list of Scientology related corporations, including CST, were behind the scenes vital to the final landing zone of Hubbard’s EU bank account(s) wealth!

      Hubbard wanted his legacy of writings and lectures put into as imperishable form as possible. Thus the metal plates and the writings also in the acid free paper in the books put int the titanium capsules with argon gas pumped into the capsules, and the capsules put in the underground faults, as well as the stacks of the stainless steep plates etched with his writings (the stainless steel plates etching was way behind, and I think it’s not even fully done today, since that is the most expensive to pay for, and the paying for the etching was tied, back in 1992-1995 to the royalty profits to be gotten from the sales of Hubbard’s books, the royalty collections which Author Services Inc did and still does, as their main function for funneling the money, essentially, right into the underground fault Archives project that Hubbard wished.

      Following the money, it goes into the ground in the form of the Archives project.

      No question he focused on money and his own power to control his movement, no argument.

      He was way more middle class-ish than opulent though, and the money trail, the bulk of his wealth he squeezed out of the movement, he put right back into the CST corporation, and I saw the figures up to 1995, of the money CST spent on the underground Archives that are in the various half dozen or less underground vault sites, I saw the stats when Tom Vorm the deputy boss and Russ Bellin, boss of CST, this was 92-95 when I at ASI had the opportunity to witness Tom’s and Russ’s briefings to ASI staff to account for the royalty money that went from ASI to CST. It was about 80 or 90 million spent, as of 92-95, I recall, roughly.

      • Nojoking

        I’m guessing Miscaviage is dining well since the archives and even Super Power project has not been completed , last I heard.

      • Bob

        Having seen first hand the way Hubbard lived I concur with Chuck. Hubbard lived a spartan life but would spare no expense if it helped his research. Whether you consider Hubbards research valid or not my observations were; he did believe what was coming up in the auditing was real and that it produced real changes. There is nothing insane about the concept of past lives. And it is either a fact of life or not. There is certainly a large body of evidence that it is true. Completely separate from the auditing and personal research of Hubbard. The old timers that worked with Hubbard so a high level of sincerity in what he was doing. I do see how the whole activity has been corrupted to make it a money making scam, originally Hubbard set it up so you could co-audit you way up the bridge at a fraction the cost of having others audit you. In fact he did quite a bit to reward those who took this route. IMHO Hubbard displayed a sincere intention to want to help others. But the activity did get grievously perverted.

      • ze moo

        Thank you Chuck, I always wondered how Lrons personal wealth was portioned out after he died. So, he spent it on the repository of Hubbard knowledge, I guess he drank his own kool-aid deeply enough. His final years have always seemed odd to me. He spent the late 60’s and early 70’s as the great guru on his ships and then went to land and then hid out after Snow White hit the fan. That he spent his last years living in a trailer banging out his self absorbed ‘research’ is just sad.

        I shall start thinking of him as a latter day Ozymandias.

    • villagedianne

      Edgar Cayce also did not believe in past lives until they came up in the trance states he was able to put himself under. Past lives and reincarnation conflicted with Cayce’s Christian beliefs. Cayce did come to believe in past lives, and gave past life readings. But he never used this knowlege to enrich himself or assert power over others. Unlike some we can name.

  • burythenuts

    Ok, we got whole track past lives hooey and more commentary from Vance!
    Imma need more coffee fo sho…

  • sugarplumfairy

    “…they can also recall, for instance, the history of the room that they are sitting in, going all the way back in time. He says they can even recall alternate histories…”

    What exactly is an alternate history? That would be, of course, the shore story to deal with the flack when different scientologists recall different histories for the same room.. lrh was a big fat con man..

    Reminds me of this from a 2003 article on Chris Reeves book ‘Nothing is Impossible..’

    “…But Reeve had “growing skepticism about Scientology.” So he decided to run his own test.

    He told the auditor a long story supposedly about a past life, but he made it all up, based upon a Greek myth.

    However, the auditor didn’t detect anything, even with the help of the trusty “E-Meter.”

    It was then that the “Man of Steel” decided he was done with Scientology…”

    • Nojoking

      I have found many stories that Hubbard could have used to create his organization, the Bible being one. Ancient history, another. The above link is about a character who was thrown in the abyss for a thousand years, reminding me of Xenu story.

      One thing can be said, it took an intelligent person to put together something in modern times to fascinate and influence thousands, millions, to being attracted to it. We should thank Miscaviage for screwing it all up. 😀

  • villagedianne

    What Hubbard said is not so different from others in the world of spirituality. There is much talk of alternate realities, other dimensions, etc. The idea is that we are mulit-dimensional beings who exist in many different realities. So actually Hubbard is not so off track here. Only problem is, Hubbard went over to the dark side by using his ideas in service of power and greed.

    • Vistaril

      Can you point to “others in the world of spirituality” who also refer to humans being trapped in the material world by the spiritual debris of aliens brought to Earth in UFOs by galactic overlords and then blown up with hydrogen bombs before being subject to 36 days of implanting with false data via giant movie screens?

      • John Onthego

        Well… not just off the top of my head…

      • villagedianne

        I was not referring to the Xenu story here, nor was I implying that everything Hubbard said was also said by others in the world of spirituality. I thought it was obvious that I was referring specifically to the topic at hand. Sorry I was not clear enough on this. I see how my post might have been mis-read.
        However, now that you mention it I do remember a channeller who spoke about humans being implanted to accept certain beliefs. No Xenu though.
        A lot, though not all, of what Hubbard said is familiar to anyone who has read up on spirituality, past lives, etc. Thing is Hubbard used it all to lock people in another prison.

    • HyperionCorp

      The problems started before Hubbard “went over to the dark side.” He was a sociopath even as a teen, and wove a web of lies even in his personal diaries. The things that he claimed to understand, he understood incorrectly. If he didn’t have the gift of the gab, he would have been a complete failure.

  • BosonStark

    Good place for my anecdote. I have a friend who taught college English, and who firmly believed/believes in past lives. She heard that Scientology explored them and went into an Org in California, in the 80’s, but was too creeped out by the zombies — the “bad vibe” she called it — to even take one course. She walked out and never went back.

    So, the past lives crowd is not all an easy sell on Scientology, but it is a niche market, within their niche market. Marty Rathbun has no particular need for it since he trades in the already mind f’kd. He knows his market.

    • Tye Solaris

      Zombies! That is precisely the End Product of Scientology processing.

      • Valkov

        So does that make Chuck Beatty a zombie, in your estimation? He certainly seems like an End Product of processing, having been through thousands of hours and many levels of it.

    • villagedianne

      There’s a lot more places now to get what your friend was looking for. Scientology has no monopoly on exploring past lives.

  • Jeff Jacobsen

    It was not a new idea at Hubbard’s time. There is a book called Have You Lived Other Lives? by Ernest C. Wilson (1956, Prentice-Hall) that I suspect influenced Hubbard to write a book about reincarnation.

    • Vistaril

      Fer sure. Reincarnation is a concept that stretches back for millenia. According to J A Winter who wrote “A Doctor’s Report”, L Ron Hubbard was already incorporating past lives into his mumbo-jumbo as early as 1950. I suspect Boson Stark has got it right – it was potential for generating cash that mainly influenced L Ron Hubbard. He realised early there were many who already believed in past lives and saw quickly how easily others could be hypnotised via “auditing” into believing. BINGO – a ready and expanding market. I’m not sure which of L Ron Hubbard’s books you are referring to. A History of Man was published in 1952 when it was originally titled “What To Audit”, which predates Wilson’s work, while “Have You Lived Before This Life” wasn’t published until 1960. The latter purports to be a collection of “forty-one actual case histories” of reincarnation and past-life experiences, gleaned from auditing during the “Fifth London Advanced Clinical Course” held in 1958 – more evidence to suggest L Ron Hubbard was, indeed, “serious” about the idea.

    • sugarplumfairy

      Yah.. The fifties were the Bridey Murphy decade.. I just googled to check it out, figuring the Bridey incident may have influenced lrh’s interest.. Lermanet says its the other way around.. Or, at least, opportunist lrh took credit for Bridey Murphy..

  • In the wog world there are two kinds of ‘past life recall’.
    The first is the New Age channeling stuff where everyone turns out to have been Napoleon, Cleopatra or other famous people. It’s patently nonsense.
    The other is entirely different with often fragmentary scenes from the lives of ordinary folk, sufficiently interesting for some serious research to have been done:

    I’m told that the reason the Chuch downplays the subject nowadays is that too many members got enthusiastically into the former kind of ‘recall’ and it was becoming silly. The order went out that this was like the rest of auditing supposed to be confidential.
    I don’t think it’s possible to detirmine whether Hubbard believed any of this, since as a non-believer I think he made stuff up as he went along.

    • BosonStark

      I believe the LA Celebrity Center hosted a party where members (celebrity level only — no Sea Org or regular Public sludge) dressed up as people they were in past lives.

  • burythenuts

    “Many Lives, Many Masters” was an interesting book to read about past lives.
    Of course…at the end……….meh, I still wasn’t buying it.

    • Dear burythenuts,

      One day on the RPF, I thought, if past lives are really real, then there’d be so much evidence on earth already, of people recalling their past lives, and doing like Hubbard thought he’d done, in his own “Mission Into Time” book, which is in human history, already, there would be LOTS of people burying their stashes from their past lives, and then going digging up their stashes of wealth, in their NEW lives, so as to be able to start out where they financially left off!

      We’d already have evolved, on earth, if past lives were real, we’d have evolved industries of legally retrieving our last lifetime stashed goodies, that we wished to snatch up again, in our new lives!

      When I worked at ASI, I thought about this, also. Since LRH was doing quite a bit of “burying his nuts” (your namesake)!

      There are so many entertaining angles to Hubbard, for all his evilness, and his CST (Archives) burying his very own nuts, and him scripting the movie for the Class 6 Scientologists to “bury his theory nuts” in their minds, so in their future lives, when they find themselves on other planets, they’ll be able to remember the BIG Hubbard theoretical principles, at least, from memory.

      Hubbard’s a memory, and past memories, and he’s a future remembering, covering the long range future, guy!

      • burythenuts


  • Chocolate Velvet

    It is less about what Hubbard believed, and more about what he wanted or needed others to believe. The past lives aspect gained traction with Hubbard the more he realized the attraction it held for overly-credulous people with lots of money. I tend to think of dianetics and scientology as Hubbard’s “magical thesis”, in the Crowley sense. One of the tasks in the Crowley system as one advances is to create a personal cosmology or magical schema based on what one has studied and experienced in lower grades. It is a distillation of the individual, personal understanding of the “great work”, sort of. Ostensibly, it is presented to one’s superior and teacher in the order, for critique and clarification. Hubbard’s teacher, Jack Parsons, met an unfortunate end via fulminate of mercury, and he was a half-assed guide to begin with who never really had mastery over his student. So you could say that Hubbard took the Crowley work and “went rogue”. There is supposed to be a more philosophical purpose to this work, to further human understanding and whatnot. Hubbard skipped that part, or rather he appropriated it for marketing purposes. But as Woodward points out in his book, Hubbard is quite honest about his real intentions in many places in his writings. To wit: “Make money. Make more money. etc.” He may have paid lip service to the Great Work of human growth and understanding, but that was pure salesmanship to bring in the seekers. The past life business was a part of the sales pitch. It was an increasingly popular concept in the mid 20th century, may people who were into self-exploration wanted to remember their past lives. Give the people what they want, right?

    Part of the Crowley process, as I understand it, requires one to select students to guide in the work, and to use one’s own magical thesis as the curriculum. Publish it – usually as a self-help or fringe science book – and when people make contact with questions or feedback, invite them to engage in study on a more personal level. (Some are more successful than others in this task – if you think “dianetics” is a crazy, obtuse text, try reading some of the many other magical theses out there.) This is a way for the magus to garner power, as the theory goes, because the more people who are pouring psychic energy into their schema, the more “real” and usable it becomes for the magus himself. Nibs claimed in an interview transcript I read that his father was using black magic to take power from his followers. I think this is what he was referring to. Is it true? Is all this Crowley magister templi business for real? Who the hell knows? I just look at the outcome. It worked for Hubbard, exactly as it was supposed to. Money was the only power that Hub really seemed to crave, as well as the power to escape from reality, and the consequences of his actions. In that sense, I would say that he was quite successful in his magical endeavor for some time. His con provided him with all of these things, in abundance. He certainly achieved a kind of immortality through his work; we are all here talking about him and his creation. But in the end, he had “called up something he could not put down”, and it consumed him.

    People who buy into and use Hubbard’s system are just feeding him; or rather, the keeper of his con, David Miscavige. This is regardless of whether any of it is true — like past lives and so on, or whether any of it works — like auditing and TRs and so on. As long as they are operating within his system instead of thinking for themselves, they are just food for the appetites of a dead man and his place-holder…

    • burythenuts

      But in the end, he had “called up something he could not put down”, and it consumed him.

      TRUE THAT!

    • sheepherder

      Brilliant job on making the connections with Crowley. It’s obvious to me that lrh was copying Crowley all along.. You’ve laid it out so well.

      Smart con artist that he was, he saw that magic wouldn’t sell in the ‘enlightened’ 1950’s, but anything labeled ‘scientific’ would . It was just a matter of changing one fancy costume for another; a magician’s robe for a space suit…the real object was always power, by whatever means . That was Crowley’s true lesson.

      “And it consumed him..” YES. (That’s why there are so many folk stories about not making deals with the Devil!) His life is a shabby, glitzy, mean version of Faust.

    • “But in the end, he had “called up something he could not put down”, and it consumed him.”

      I see it this way, too.

    • BosonStark

      That was really super, Chocolate.

      Hubbard adapted a lot of things to the times, early on in the creation of Scientology, and continued to do so. When it failed as a “science,” it became a “religion.” He knew fairly early on that any label would would be too limiting and he turned it into everything — all the answers — and at the same time, whatever is “true for you,” what you want it to be. That appealed to his target audience.

      Dianutty was originally something Hubbard probably thought would excite his science fiction fans, who craved something to be as dramatic, as one alien civilization conquering another, but REAL– the greatest breakthrough since… And, you could do it in your own parlor, with a friend, exploring the universe of the mind.

      When Dianutty became wildly popular, he found ways to combine the control and levels of the Crowley-like cult, with the relative novelty of psychoanalysis and mesmerism/hypnosis.

      Now Marty Rathbun is trying to say Sea Org members might not “come back”? He’s going with the “what’s true for you is true” part and discarding the rest of the cuckoo?

      Freud was the one who had the impact on western culture, and the way people think. He was the person who inspired other thinkers. Hubbard contributed virtually nothing, but will go down in history as an exceptional huckster and a curiosity. Like most clams, Tom Cruise doesn’t think, he “knows.”

    • HyperionCorp

      “But in the end, he had “called up something he could not put down”, and it consumed him.”

      One could say that is the inevitable result of the left-hand path.
      Ironically, Miscabitch probably knows nothing about the occult, other than LRH’s cloaked craziness.

    • class6survivor

      Were you ever a scientologist?
      I’m guessing no.
      What are you into?

      • Zer0

        Are you a scientologist?
        What are you “into” ?

    • Nojoking

      Like Hubbard said “for something to persist it has to contain a lie” And there ya have it. 😀

    • burythenuts

      Let me tell u a little something…just a little nugget I “heard”. It may be total crap…it is hearsay, after all.
      But I do trust my source!

      The rocket scientest was cool, but when that red headed fuck came along to that rooming house, he quickly became the king. He was THE DOM, not Parsons.
      He was full of shit, but he ruled… Parsons walked in his shadow, even if he (parsons) was the one trying to conjer up the moon child and the magick to impress Crowley… Who thought they were fucking DORKS!
      Thelema, snort!

      • John Onthego

        This short “thumb in the eye” is a very factual interpretation. Good work.

    • class6survivor

      I googled chocolate velvet and all I got were cake recipes!
      Didn’t you have your own blog?
      I thought I saw that here once.

    • Zer0

      Strange, I thought this post was submitted hours ago.

  • Dean Fox

    Scientology states that your current issues are causes by something in your past, all the way back to the beginning of the Universe. Through a process of insistence that something must be there to be remembered if you just go back far enough under the “auditing” conditions the brain will eventually manufacture something that, no matter how silly, you will likely believe is such a memory.

    Ex scientologists have stated such things as “I remember being chased by aliens and caught in a net.” A child of 10 remembered being a Roman tax collector who bashed people’s heads in who didn’t pay – explained his headaches.

    When deluding oneself there is always a danger of becoming competely delusional. No one can be sure but Lisa McPherson springs to mind.

    • burythenuts


      See, this is one of the biggest “issues” I have with Scientology. So you have all these incidents and engrams and whatever other kind of crap that needs to be run out of you…So you can be “Clear”. By the time you get this “current” lifetimes meat body all sorted out…It is time to check out of this meat body and go pick up another one.

      And then you have to start the cycle all over again.
      Is it just me? Or does anyone else see a big ass fucking issue with this logic?

      • ze moo

        Yes daughter, the wheel of life is a painful wheel. If you happen to get ‘clear’ you can then pay for the OT exorcisims of your past lives. And remember the billions of Body Theatans, you’ll be paying to exorcise them forever. All hail the income stream Lron found!!!!

        • burythenuts

          Let me share my theory of why I believe that LRH actually DID believe his own whole track BS.
          The guy tried to perpetuate a financial scam that actual reaches into the next billion years! That is pretty bold.

          Now why bother?…, unless you are batshit crazy enough to be eating your own excrement.

  • ze moo

    “Looked up historical events AFTER THE FACT of recalling them in
    session. Could not otherwise have known of them. On a number of
    occasions became furious at the way history misrepresented events and
    twisted the facts.”

    Not the least human ability is the ability for self-deception. Past life memory
    recalls are like flying saucer missing time, the subject ‘remembers’ it (or
    dreams it up) and it becomes TRUE FOR THEM, a status Lron like to encourage.

    Watch the evangelical christians on sunday morning TV. Watch the folks who
    ‘talk in tongues’. They want to be ‘gods vessel’ and be special in this
    lifetime. Everyone wants to think of themselves as special and important, if
    not now, then in their past lives.

    Everyone wants to have been Napoleon or Caesar, but how many claim to be the
    head eunuch of the Ottoman Empire? That sounds like an important person to me.

    Lron adopted the ‘whole track’ reincarnation bit around 1958 or so. He had lost
    control of the Dianutty foundations and that income, due to his mismanagement
    more than anything else. The FDA had condemned the emeter because
    of Lrons health claims. By adding the reincarnation dimension, Lron made it a
    religion and eventually got the tax exemption he wanted (cheep bastard) post
    mortis. By changing Dianutty enough, it became Scamatology, a religion not
    subject to scientific investigations or investigations by Attorneys General for
    fraud. Lron was always a kind of ‘show me the money’ type of guy. But if you
    have one ‘issue’ from each of your past lives, you are going to be paying for a
    lot of auditing.

    Reincarnation has as much scientific validity as crop circles, the planet
    Nibiru, bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and those little gray intergalactic
    proctologists who kidnap people in the middle of the night and then bring them

    Actually, I don’t mind Buddhism, it teaches a useful morality that is very
    similar to other religions. I just don’t believe in reincarnation,
    especially reincarnation that has left you with problems that only Lron and his
    minions can cure.

    • HyperionCorp

      ” I just don’t believe in reincarnation,”

      Don’t say that to Steven Seagal – he’s a tulku with a temper:)

      • burythenuts

        Snigger, god I hate that guy!

  • I wanted to fill out Marty’s survey, since I’d run 10 to 20 thousand past lives incidents, in all my 125 case folders of Hubbard’s sit down with the pseudo-therapist and delve backwards, using the Hubbard “Is there an earlier similar …(fill in the blank with transgression, pain, predicament upset, etc…) ?”

    Marty multiple choice 3 questions didn’t include options for my experience I was a non believer in past lives before I got into Scientology, then I became a believer, then I reverted to a non believer in past/future lives when I left.

    When I was in, I came to believe in my past lives, just from reading “Have You Lived Before This Life” and reading the 1975 edition of “Dianetics Today”.

    I did the Standard Dianetics (1969-1975 upgrade of Dianeitcs by Hubbard) Course in the summer of 1975.

    The red hardback dictionary was issued in late summer 1975 also, and it has numerous citations to past life incidents and civilizations.

    I ran my first “whole track” past lives incidents, in spring of 1976, and the majority of the sessions I had of Scientology pseudo therapy from then till 2001ish, I found past lives incidents, in answer to the pseudo-therapist’s quesitons.

    But in fall of 2001, I suddenly started having a massive reversal of belief, in past lives, and it took a couple years to finally unwind out of my thoughts, I did unwind away from believing in past and future lives, back to atheism, that the material universe is really all there is.

    In 2001, fall, in a series of sessions I was then having, just like normal, after 5 years on the RPF and over 3,000 hours of Hubbard’s transgression finding questioning and answering, , I suddenly started to get the idea that maybe all my years of past lives incidents were really my own imagination, and thinking this, made me feel great.

    So I’m not the typical member who only ran a couple hundred past lives, I ran thousands, 10-30 thousand past lives incidents, and then I finally concluded they were all BS, all my imagination.

    And like Vance, years ago I then saw Hubbard was turning us into our own science fiction writers of our own past lives adventure story authors, which has been my view ever since I saw that.

    In the RPF, you sit with your co-pseudo-therapist and switch om being the pseudo therapist to the patient. You sit in a room at small tables, sitting across from each other ,up to 20 to 30 pairs, all doing the RPF transgression past lives digging up incidents to match one’s difficulties for which one was demoted to the RPF. So, after 5 years of this, I finally concluded that people’s past lives incidents they were telling each other, which I overheard, at least from the pairs who spoke boldly enough for their voices to carry, I concluded the incidents were so full of holes and lame, that my own lame past lives incidents were just as lame and ridiculous.

    It became obvious to me, I was truly just making the past lives up.

    A very cheap and easy book, one can get, is “Dianetics Today” (the 1975 edition of the then “Standard Dianetics” improved procdeures, the upgraded R3R commands, the 1 to 9 and A to D commands) which if you read the commands, listed in that book, you see how a Scientologist could be very clearly going into their past lives.

    Also, in that book, there are a dozen or more “Case Supervisor” instructions in the back of the book, together with the actual text of the session worksheets, which the co-pseudo-therapists doing the 1975 era Dianetics improved commands, are detailed.

    Many of those sessions go into past lives engrams (trauma incidents), and a couple have the patient’s epiphany comments, showing the relationship with the engram with the patient’s current life disability or difficulty.

    The Hubbard past lives exploration is for discovering incidents that somehow relate to one’s this lifetime’s irrationality, and “running the engrams” erasing the effects of the past lives incidents (Hubbard’s 1975 era Dianetics sought to ease the patient into discovering a chain of past lives incidents, where the incidents stretch backwards in time, so the patient digs deeper and deeper backwards finding earlier similar incidents, on the same subject, and one finds the Basic on the Chain, which then releases the supposed engramic mental charge one has on that subject), to one’s mental spiritual benefit.

    It’s past lives PTSD trauma reduction therapy, is all, that’s what the modern Dianetics is. (This 1975 version of Standard Dianetics, was upgraded again, in 1978 by Hubbard, and the latest tweaked version has some refinements and supposedly runs smoother and quicker, it’s called New Era Dianetics, but it’s commands are not as easily available to the public, for viewing to see the nuts and bolts easily, in one volume, which is why I refer scholars and interested experts to the 1975 edition of “Dianetics Today” to see cheaply a really good condensed laying out of the pseudo therapy.

    There’s no question that Clears were made using the 1975 edition of “Dianetics Today” Hubbard pseudo therapy theory writings. So it’s a valid allowed option, cheap, for the outside world willing to try out the Hubbard past lives stuff on themselves.

    The other books that Hubbard wrote, that clearly answer your question, Tony are:

    “Have You Lived Before This Life”
    “Mission Into Time”
    “History of Man”

    The all important Scientologist public lecture “Ron’s Journal 67”

    The video clip of Pat Broeker holding up the one Hubbard worksheet session page, from one of Hubbard’s late summer of 1985 sessions on himself, which you reported on Tony, also is no joke,

    Hubbard truly believes that delving backwards, into one’s past lives, is the major zone that Hubbard felt our mental and spiritual troubles stem.

    So, only if one was an amateur Scientologist, and if one lived sort of a play along role in Scientology, where one didn’t get much of the outlay of the Hubbard Bridge to Total Freedom, and particularly, at the New Era Dianetics level today, one will absolutely be guided into one’s past lives, unquestionably.

    In a nutshell another way to put what Vance’s experiences were, are that the movement deprives its members from doing the Hubbard pseudo-therapy, ironically, sufficiently, that even the members who are long term members, have no real wide experience in delving back into one’s past lives, enough to gain a “solid certainty” that one’s past lives DO have influence on one’s this lifetime behavior!

    Today’s Scientologists aren’t getting Scientology, is one of the complaints the older timer Scientologists in the freezone and independent movement have made for decades.

    And people coming to me, asking if the past lives is a real part of the Hubbard Bridge, for real, then I refer them to the Hubbard books, where he’s absolutely clear, that past lives have a huge influence on our this lifetime behavior, and why the Bridge contains “New Era Dianetics” as the main way one attains the Clear state today.

    That’s a whole deeper discussion, where some ex Scientologists who still do the therapy, believe people can be Cleared besides Hubbard clearing procedures, gets complicated, and also it shows Hubbard was wrong, when you lay out the counter arguments of some former senior practitioners who diverge from Hubbard, it’s a mess of unsubstantiatable claims, both from Hubbard’s side, and from his chief squirrel senior ex therapists who disagree with Hubbard (Otto Roos and Dart Smohen I think would believe people can go Clear on other practices besides Hubbard’s, for instance).

    But what made me start really finally giving up on past lives, was the ridiculous stories, I couldn’t deny having heard, of people’s past lives stories, and then reflecting that my own past lives incidents were no better than the stories of others.

    On the RPF, we were absolutely guided to find past lives incidents relating to our behavior for which we were demoted to the RPF. On the “False Purpose Rundown” required end results, to determine we had successfully delved into our minds and cleaned up our past, long ago past, decisions to commit evil acts, we were required to find our actual evil purposes, and further, we were directed to search even deeper to find the “prior confusion” that preceded our solution of thinking an evil purpose that “solved” that “prior confusion.” I did this thousands of times, on thousands of transgression “chains” that led back to some “prior confusion” which led to some evil purpose which in all cases, this all occured in some past life incident.

    The theory of Hubbard’s pseudo therapy is so off putting, but the details are not really open to the patients’ and followers’ opinions. As Hubbard spits out savagely, in his extremely irrate voice, during one lecture of the Class 8 lectures. it is NOT his opinion, it is FACT, he bellows!

    Past lives, to Hubbard, if one’s read just the above, you will see this zone, is where Hubbard explored, or thought he was exploring, and he fully intended we do our own exploring, of our own pasts, using his pseudo therapy procedures.

    There’s been decades of fiddle faddle discussions, off an all tangents.

    But our minds, Hubbard’s “big” discovery, was the ‘going earlier similar” procedures, that his pseudo-therapists use at the key points in the overall Bridge to Total Freedom layout for the followers.

    Google “Past LIves Remedies” and Scientology, to see those.

    And finally, “Thankyou for listening” song by Hubbard.

    He with his cheerful malice, sings his between the lines belief in past lives.

    And also on his “Why Worship Death” song, on the Battlefield Earth album.

    No, Hubbard absolutely guided ihs followers to past lives.

    And, the OT 8 epiphany, is one created one’s whole past lives case,which of course would be true, if we were, as Hubbard speculates (Time Track Bulletin Number 1, in 1963), we each started as our own source point in our own home universes, in the longest ago times at the beginning.

    Summary re past lives:
    a) “Dianetics Today” (1975 edition)
    b) “Have You Lived Before This Life”
    c) “History of Man”
    d) Ron’s Journel 67
    e) Pat Broeker moment holding up the 1985 worksession page of Hubbard’s self delivered therapy session
    f) Song “Thankyou for Listening”
    g) Song “Why Worship Death?”
    h) “Past Life Remedies” google
    i) Class 8 lecture snarling comment “FACT!!!!” segment
    j) 20 page despatch to David Mayo
    k) “Mission Into Time”

    That’ll do to show Hubbard’s guiding us to past lives exploration, is a subjective exploration, but Hubbard absolutely wished us think it is real! That worksheet moment, Pat Broeker moment, on stage, to me, just cuts to the chase.

    Hubbard wanted us go in session, and he believed for real, his shit.

    • HyperionCorp

      Great post. Very informative.

      You said “this plastic nature of our minds, is why a polymath psychologist
      theory historian person needs to someday take up the whole layout of
      therapy Hubbard’s been piling his Scientology pseudo-therapy on top of.”

      I suspect there never will be a thorough academic analysis of Hubbard’s work in toto, simply because a polymath who could pull it off (without going crazy) would quickly realize that their talent would be wasted on the subject. It doesn’t provide enough intellectual stimulation, and it doesn’t help that LRH was such a terrible writer. There are so many internal contradictions, obvious falsehoods, and lazy theories that you don’t end up much the wiser about what LRH is trying to say. It seems Hubbard didn’t really know what he was trying to say, or simply said so much that he lost track of his prior contradictory yarns.

      • Martin Gardner’s “Fads and Fallacies” of the 1950s, Gardner’s book better than anyone’s makes this point.

        Hubbard was a crank pseudo-psychotherapist and L. Ron Hubbard Junior’s comments on his dad, pretty much summarize what one needs to know.

        The slippery side angle though, that crazy Hubbard senior, had something of value, all the reasons that people find something of value in Hubbard’s Bridge to Total Freedom or in Hubbard’s spiritual self help ideas in the Hubbard books and lectures, especially some of Hubbard’s borrowed esoteric ideas, like the idea that in the beginning, we each were our own “God” in our own home universe (an idea which is one Hubbard knew of at least back in 1940, when Hubbard wrote “One Was Stubborn”, a novelette where the bad guy is the cult leader named George Smiley, no less, and Smiley perfected the technique to allow every human being rise up again to God like powers!)

        • Valkov

          Chuck, my other question to you is, Would you have achieved the viewpoint you hold now if you had not had all that auditing experience?

          What I find interesting is that some others who have a similar depth of experience with Scientology reached completely different conclusions. Not that they agree with each other, either.

          It seems that at the end of the process of processing through Scientology, each person reaches a completely personal and individual epiphany.

    • Nojoking

      And out of all Hubbard’s glorious cognitions and the sharing of them with us, what did each person who walked thru a scientology org/mission door do? They “believed” what they were fed. Much like watching the silly people with our current political issues, or any other “religion”, etc, being sold out here. And whose responsibility is it to make sure we aren’t stupid or gullible? That “is” one thing I never had a problem with Hubbard saying. lol

      Those professions who have spent countless centuries and bookoo bucks for experimenting with the human brain and using the results to manipulate whole populations have got this stuff down pretty well. Hubbard was somehow involved with the Naval Intelligence unit. Whether he was a monkey for them and just came out to do what he was programmed to do, I do not know. But I do know he had connections with the gov’t and the gov’t had their own mind control program going on prior even to Ingo Swann and Puthoff. One does not have to “believe” this. One only has to read alot and research to find the government is behind many experiments and manipulations of People and I believe Hubbard used military as his organizational structure for reasons of it being familiar and comfortable to him and because behind him was at least one agency of government. Again, IMO.

      • villagedianne

        One of my theories is that the government allowed Scientology to carry on because it was such a good study of mental manipulation. As David Icke has pointed out, totalitarianism works best when people police each other, and believe in the rightness of their oppression. Scientology certainly is a perfect paradigm for a totalitarian society.

    • Valkov

      Chuck, since you call auditing a “pseudo-therapy”, what would you consider to be a “true therapy”? Personally, I feel part of the value of Hubbard’s approach is the validation he gave to the subjective realm of life. Many psychologists and even psychiatrists/psychoanalysts feel a big problem in the lives of many people
      has been the undervaluation and suppression of the subjective realm of their patients. This was the basis of the development of “client-centered therapy”, as Carl Rogers called it, as opposed to the “psychology of adjustment”, which had been the prevalent model before.

  • I was a Scientologist for 16 years.

    In the first auditing session I ever had, a “Book One” Dianetics session, I ran a chain of incidents which began this lifetime, down the time track to what seemed to be the 1600s, into a dense forest, following my dog down a footpath. A big burly dude with an axe stepped out from behind a tree and buried his axe through the middle of my back, deep into my chest. My body fell backward onto the axe while “I” rose up above my body, looking down at it, and the guy who just murdered me.

    Almost every auditing session I had since that one contained some incident from a past existence. Past life incidents were very routine in my auditing. I had thousands of auditing sessions over the course of 16 years and ran multiple incidents in every auditing session. That’s how many past life incidents I ran.

    The problem with exploring past lives in Scientology, is that your exploration is trapped within its ideology and what Hubbard and the other Scientologists around you say about it. You can not, for instance, say that these incidents are just stories I tell myself and do not exist in any other form. Why? Because Hubbard never said that. If you voice that thought about your past life auditing to another Scientologist, they are likely to ask you where Hubbard said they were “just stories you tell yourself”, or they might “helpfully” show you the “correct understanding” of past life incidents from a reference from L Ron Hubbard.

    Either way, you’re fucked. Over time, your past becomes your self-identity, and that self-identity will become cemented together with the fixed ideology of Scientology. You are not likely to figure these things out, truly and uniquely, for yourself.

    I still believe that a few of my own past lives which were revealed in my Scientology auditing were “real”. But now I know they are just stories I tell myself, where a Scientololgist still thinks they have actual knowledge about actual past lives that really existed.

    I have learned that what happens to us is less important than the stories we tell ourselves about what happened to us.

    While past lives may or may not exist, the stories we tell ourselves about them do exist. These stories have huge and very real causation in your life. If you tell yourself that you did not live before, that has much more “cause” in your life than whether you actually lived before. The stories you tell yourself about what happened or did not happen to you are what survive, and they create who you are today.

    Scientology was L Ron Hubbard’s business. The commercial aspect of that business corrupted the pursuit of truth that most Scientologists joined for. Scientologists become deluded by that corruption, and this is why I say that Scientology is a big toxic pool of spiritual deception.

    Whether we lived before, or will live again, is all just speculation. Human beings are not capable of knowing these things. Even staunch atheists who are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that when we die we die forever, are just speculating no matter how sneering and superior they act.

    It’s the stories we tell ourselves that are most important.


    • burythenuts

      Awesome post Alanzo! That was profound!

      • I have pamphlets to hand out to people.

        • burythenuts

          Yeah well, you got a up arrow from me today, but don’t get cocky.

          • Thank you.

            I appreciate all the up arrows I can get.

            • BosonStark

              Up arrows are almost as good as a suitcase of cash, on Venus. Really, if you get enough of them, they can stop a freight locomotive on its track.

            • I believe this. They’re like a talisman against the R6 bank.

            • Nojoking

              I thought up arrows meant you can get the cash now. LOL

            • DeElizabethan

              Let me just say that my JOY is in the Underground Bunker. I never laugh so much elsewhere.

        • richelieu jr

          I a past life I was killed by an avalanche of up arrows. That’s just how great I was.

          (Any lack of proof is due to DISQUS error)

    • HyperionCorp

      Great post.

      As you say, we are the stories that we tell ourselves. Scientology creates story upon false story, which its members must keep telling themselves. It is basically a recipe for insanity. The trick is to stop the storytelling altogether, which brings us to the present, the “now.” One could say that living in the moment is the opposite of scientology.

      • burythenuts

        Hmmm…well that left me “dazed and confused”.
        I must need more coffee!
        Yep, sure nuff!

    • Alanzo, try looking into the work of Robert A. Monroe. All I know of him is the one book I read and a short time on his website.

      • Thanks, Dan. I’ve done that, too.

        Right now I am very interested in Plato, which has very coherent and logical arguments for things like the immortality of the soul, reincarnation and much else. I find that Plato’s dialogues are fascinating and highly edifying.

        Also, Nagarjuna is a guy I have been very fascinated with lately.


  • Observer

    IMO Hubbard did intend it to be taken seriously, not because it was true or that he believed it at the time, but because he was serious as a heart attack about anything that would bring him more money and deepen his acolytes’ dependence on and devotion to him. I think the adoration he received was as important to him than the money, at least at first. 

    I also think Vance’s observations about the hints LRH dropped about it being make-believe are valid. Given the sadistic streak LRH displayed (overboarding, kids in chain lockers, nose-peanut-pushing) I think he enjoyed essentially telling his dupes that it wasn’t true and watching them glom onto it anyway.

    • Vistaril

      Indeed. As L Ron Hubbard once remarked to his then Deputy Commodore, Hannah Whitfield: “its all just hypnosis, you know”.

  • N. Graham

    I haven’t believed in reincarnation in this or any of my many former lives. Well, except for the overlapping ones of course.

  • Ivan Mapother

    I went over to Marty’s slag heap and I couldn’t stop laughing. ADVANCE magazine is alive and well, carry on Marty. The fact is, I worked as an apprentice union pipefitter at an implant station on Io. My buddy Wayne had an uncle with union connection but that’s another story. I saw lots of thetans come and go for over 63,000 years. Like I said, it was a union job. Anyway, if any of Marty’s posters would use a current photo for their avatar, I could shed some light on their past. The last I heard from Wayne was that he found a sweet management job at call center on Europa, more pay and less gravity. He might remember a few past thetans too, it’s worth a try.

  • BosonStark

    Just out of curiosity, I Googled “Dianutty” and was excited that the top entry was in the Urban Dictionary. However, after clicking on it, it just took me to:


    To know something utterly and completely, THAT NO ONE ELSE KNOWS. It is the most EXTREME form of self-righteousness, usually brought on by a chemical imbalance in the brain.

    • sugarplumfairy


  • Jefferson Hawkins

    Here’s Scientology’s dirty little secret: On OT VIII, you run a process where you inspect past life incidents that you have run in the past and check, on the meter, whether these incidents were “really you.” You are supposed to discover that most or all of these past life incidents were not “really you.” Imagine a Scientologist who has spent years and years (and hundreds of thousands of dollars) dutifully auditing these past life and whole track incidents, only to discover, on VIII, that these incidents did not really happen to him or her. It is a mind-f**k of major proportions. Many people who complete this level leave Scientology forever and vow never to return. Some cave in. One person I know became suicidal. The “truth revealed” is that it has all been a useless exercise; none of it was real. And that’s where they leave people after they have spent their entire lives pursuing Scientology. They leave them in limbo. And if they have a problem with that, they are told that “it will be handled on OT IX and X” — levels that do not exist and have never existed. And if they complain they are put into endless Security Checking to confess their crimes, and if they continue to complain they are simply declared and ejected from Scientology. That is what is waiting for Scientologists at the end of “The Bridge.”

    As to whether or not “past lives” or reincarnation exist, well, who really knows? That subject has been debated for centuries. Scientology itself is confused about it. Scientology auditors are trained to run whatever comes up, no matter how crazy, and never, never question what the preclear is telling you. Preclears are encouraged to just run what comes into their minds, no matter how crazy it seems. And they are indoctrinated, through Hubbard’s books and lectures, to believe that past lives exist. So that’s what they find and that’s what they run.

    Like any belief, it is impermeable to facts. Interesting that one Scientologist went back and checked their past life recall against historical records, then became angry that history had distorted the facts. In other words, if historical fact conflicts with past life recall, then history must be wrong.

    But Scientologists should be warned that if they want to keep their belief in past lives intact, they should avoid OT VIII.

    • burythenuts

      I always knew that bridge ended with a fall into the abyss!

    • My God. I have never heard this put so clearly.

      Except in the wording of the End Phenomenon of OT VIII, which is “I now know what I am not and am ready find out what I am”.


      • Just Bruce

        So…after all that time and money, after one finishes up OT 8, you are now stuck in an “Enemy Condition” with no way to move beyond it: “Find out who you really are.”

        • Yeah. Notice it says “what”, too. It doesn’t say “who”.

          A huge mistake I made was ever letting L Ron Hubbard define who, or what, I was. When he said I was a “thetan”, I went, “Yeah! I’m a thetan!”. Then he kept defining me “Scn ethics are native to a thetan”, and I said …”hmmm really? Native to me? OK! Scn ethics are native to me!” “Thetans like games”

          “I like games!” And on and on.

          I did not notice that I was adopting a self-identity that Hubbard could define and control.

          Soon, I was fucked.

          And not in a good way.


          • Valkov

            Al, if you have naturally brown hair and eyes, and someone walks up to you and says “Your hair and eyes are naturally brown”, are they then somehow “defining you” in a way you can object to? Did someone somehow force you to agree you were a “thetan”? Your post sounds like you are a naturally suggestible person who agrees easily with whatever he is told he is.

      • Valkov

        There is reason to think that no-one has actually reached the real End Phenomenon of OT VIII because the Church of Scientology has never delivered the entire level. A number of posters elsewhere have stated they believe the CoS has consistently and intentionally delivered only 1/2 of the level, and that this has had disastrous consequences for many of the people doing it.

    • JustCallMeMary

      Couldn’t have said it better, Jeff. Thank you.

    • Nojoking

      One thing Hubbard was right about is Man is nutz. And I don’t mean some of Mankind, I mean the whole meatball, every single one of us no matter how ‘telligent’ we might think ourselves to be. This is a whacked out place here on Earth, in case nobody posting has noticed. With that said, I have to laugh, Jeffrey, with the idea that all those people who got to VIII were then told they hadn’t really lived those experiences? LMAO I guess I just have a weird sense of humor, but that is extremely funny to me and I think all those folks must have had a somewhat humbling down experience at that point, eh? Maybe they needed it. LOL Thanks for sharing your post. Started my day off with a big smile. 😀

      • Sandy

        Nojoking, perhaps it seems funny at first, but, as I sit here thinking about what Jefferson has said, I’m extremely sad. One can only hope the majority of these folks never find out …

        • burythenuts

          Is it worse to know? Or not know?
          Tough call.

          • Sandy

            I guess how much of your life, your “self” you have invested …. glad not me …

            • burythenuts

              It sure makes you understand OTVIII’s and suicide….unfortunately.

        • Nojoking

          Sandy, I’ve gone through the valley of tears and silent meltdowns by being involved with this church since 1970 and for over thirty years. My attitude has turned into one of “I have two choices.” One is to find where “I” failed by not paying close enough attention and being brighter about what decisions I chose to make. The other choice is I can continue on down the valley of tears and meltdowns. I made my choice, and actually found that I’ve learned more taking the genuine laughter route. It can’t be a fake laugh. One actually has to look at their own actions to make it to genuine laughter. There is no other experience I’ve come across in my life that has given me the insight that this one has. Painful, but I gained much greater insight. I only speak for myself here, not anyone else, as you know. 😀

      • HyperionCorp

        It is funny and sad. Sad if you think how much money was wasted to get to OTVIII, and that wasted money is going to inure Miscabitch, and perpetrate the fraud on other vulnerable dupes.

    • 0tessa

      Thank you for this. It does surprise me that the truth about these past life stories is only revealed at OT VIII. What was Hubbard’s reason for this? Did the find out this truth much later in his research? But why then did he not rewrite NED and other levels? Or, was he perhaps not allowed to …? That is why I think.

      So, at the end of the bridge you are back to square 1: you know what you are not. But you still do not know what you are. I can imagine what a huge disappointment this must be for some Scientologist. What a cruel thing to do. It is tragic. Scientology: knowing how to know. And you end up with knowing nothing at all!

      To answer Tony’s question: I do not believe at all in past lives and never have. That’s why Scientology did not really appeal to me. If other people want to believe it, it’s fine with me. But scientifically it is just impossible.

    • Tye Solaris

      Thank you Jeff.

      So what is Marty selling?

      Surely, he knows what OTVIII contains.

    • Jeff, Here is another dirty little secret: LRH was going to have someone else write up OT VIII. It eventually fell to Ray Mithoff and I guess that is what he came up with. The shame of it all, though, is that people put their attention and energies discussing aspects of Scientology that are speculative and rarely put their attention on aspects of living that everyone knows exist: communication problems, upsets, transgressions, efforts to be right and on and on. People will disclaim ad nauseum about OT III and OT VIII but will never open the book Self Analysis and consider looking at even the first question on the first self-processing list, like our good man here Tony Ortega. I will wager that Vance Woodward never did either. The problem that many people who got involved in Scientology and then departed embittered or ripped off is that they never looked at where they were at any particular moment but always looking ahead, “up the Bridge,” trying to get to “OT” because it would be such a wonderful escape from their present lives with their marital problems or their job problems. People completely ignore something as simple as the idiot simple questions in Self Analysis and the effect these would have on one’s ability to remember the past. If people looked at Scientology processing more like exercise than mystico-psychoanalytico-hocus pocus they might actually get something out of it. If your body is weak and flabby, you do jumping jacks and pushups. If your mind is weak and flabby you learn Chinese or do soduku. But if YOU are weak and flabby what do you do? Well, Self Analysis is a good place to start. Of course it takes some work, but so do crossword puzzles and P90X. The people who got into Scientology for a free lunch got their lunch eaten but that would have occurred had they gotten into Christianity or Tony Robbins.

      • burythenuts

        People completely ignore something as simple as the idiot simple questions in Self Analysis and the effect these would have on one’s ability to remember the past. If people looked at Scientology processing more like exercise than mystico-psychoanalytico-hocus pocus they might actually get something out of it.

        Well Dan, I must say…since my curiouosity got the best of me and I started to read and “process” some of those idiot simple questions in Self Analysis…(which they truly are)…I must say I am getting plenty out of it. It is a pretty phenomenal experience to be able to suddenly be looking out at the world through your five year old eyes again.

      • It’s great that you are posting here, Dan. Way to go.

        But I have to ask you – how do you know what I read or did not read, did or did not do, in Scientology?

        What if I did every single course and auditing action, read every single book and word cleared the hell out of each of them, and applied the processes and then found Scientology to be like kindergarten, something that was nice and necessary at one time of my life, but certainly not something to re-tread forever, and then moved on?

        Further, what if after earnest and sincere study, I found huge holes, distortions and even lies in it and realized that, as a philosophy, Scientology was a contradictory mess?

        Can these conclusions only be from someone who never really “looked at where they were at any particular moment but was always looking ahead”?

        Isn’t this simply your way of making others wrong, and not confronting what others have examined and found lacking in Scientology?


        • Valkov

          Al, are you trying to give the impression that you have done “every single course and auditing action earnestly”? Because I don’t happen to believe that is true of you. How much auditor training have you actually done?

      • Jane

        Dan, you once walked into the Ideal Org in Malmö. The CMO Missionaires were furious. One of the missionaires, Danielle Walker, told me all sorts of stories about you, to the effect that I still recall your name. Do you know who she is?

      • Sid Snakey


        Let me get this straight….OT VIII was actually written by Ray Mithoff?

        So did LRH intend OT VIII to be something entirely different? Did he make a few scribbled notes on this major OT level and then hand it off for others to make sense of it?

        And I note that you refer to OT III and VIII as being “speculative”.

        So just to recap and ensure I’m understanding all this…

        1) We should avoid the OT levels since they are speculative, and were written possibly/probably/maybe by others such as Mayo and Mithoff.

        2) We should probably avoid auditing as, based on the stream of complete nonsense generated on Marty’s blog the past few days surrounding past-lives and between-lives-implant-stations (don’t get me started), you will almost certainly end up generating whole-track fantasies and talking like a loon.

        3) The introductory courses/books (the ones designed to hook you in, so they’ve probably got some nice cheese in them) are about as safe as it gets – but this is basically self-help stuff, written in the 50s and 60s, based on Hubbard’s understanding of engrams and the reactive mind etc. However, as you’re reading these books do not listen to the bits where LRH tells you that what you really need is to get some Dianetic auditing, or get interested in Scientology (see 1 and 2 above).

        I can just see the new strap-line- “Read L Ron Hubbard – don’t read the wrong stuff, or you’ll probably go crazy.”

        Hmmm, think I’ll stick to Stephen Covey.

    • Valkov

      Jeff, there is no reason to push that idea. It is said that they find MOST, not ALL, of the past lives they have assumed to be their own, were not. However small the remainder is, would actually validate the idea that past lives exist. That is simple logic.

    • Guest

      I wonder if there is a difference between original OT8 and NEW OT8? I did original 8 and found it wonderful. Nor did I encounter anything about inspecting past life incidents and realizing they belong to others.

      The reminds me of the other original OT levels that were drills for self enhancement, which were pulled off the bridge. In my opinion it was a crime against humanity to pull these off, as they were absolutely exceptional for me.

      I think the church pulled these off the line-up so they wouldn’t have real OTs walking around.

    • joe

      I wonder if there is a difference between original 8 and new ot8? I did original 8 and found it wonderful. It opened up so much and I continue to make gains. I didn’t reach any conclusions regarding past life incidents belonging to others.

      This reminds me of the other original OT levels that were drills, which were pulled off the bridge. In my opinion it was a crime against humanity to pull these off, as they were absolutely exceptional for me. I believe the church deleted them from the bridge possibly because they enhanced awareness too much. Similar to how an SP doesn’t want people to get better, and people wouldn’t be able to be duped as easily.

  • Chocolate Velvet

    LOL from the latest 30 Rock:
    Jenna says “I’m an a lister; in that I was on a list to date Tom Cruise. But I got away before I got in too deep. Praise Xenu.”

    • sugarplumfairy


  • Sidney18511

    Over at Martys there is a conversation regarding some past life experiences of people being fed to the lions in the coliseum. They actually agree that the smell from the lion shit was so bad that they looked foward to being torn to shreds just so they could enjoy some fresh air. They seemed serious. Crazy serious.

    • HyperionCorp

      Thetans have a highly developed olfactory system.

      • Observer

        It’s a pity thetans’ visual acuity isn’t developed enough to identify the full spectrum of patio furniture colors when they’re exteriorized in the dark.

        • HyperionCorp

          Yes, it’s interesting that thetans can cross the galaxy at a whim, but can’t stand the smell of poop, or see the patio furniture at night:)

    • sugarplumfairy

      Well.. My whole track includes a brief stint as Jane Goodall’s Tanzanian hairdresser and let me tell you, lion poop has nothing on chimpanzee poop..

      • I’m sure Jane’s hair required constant care and conditioning. You must have had your work cut out for you.

    • burythenuts

      As someone who has had the “pleasure” of experiencing the wafting aroma of actual “present day” lion shit…well, actually to be totally honest, it was Tiger shit….
      But I must say…it is truly, genuinely…AWFUL!

  • Nojoking

    I would like to start with the word “subjective.” Please show me
    anything ever experienced or thought of mentally, or in any way
    manifested to the awareness of a person, that was not subjective.
    Objective is a joke. Even in quantum science it is shown and proven
    that the very second a person’s attention goes on to “anything”, it is at
    that point subject to the perceptions and considerations of the
    observer, regardless of whether done solo or in a group setting. That
    means that all people who, for whatever reason, feels a need to prove or disprove it are basically just spinning their wheels.

    The age old question, “can you prove there is a God?” No. So , of course to those whose perceptions don’t encompass those things beyond the normal material objects and motions, they will demand that the world follows them in a “belief” of their abilities of perception/awareness. We could ask “prove there is not a God.” This has been done. And the outcome is the same. The battle goes on due to there is no way one can prove or disprove this issue. At least until the day you have every single living human being in total accord with the answer. And even then, it doesn’t prove it is correct or true. It merely proves you had a totally collective group scene going on. It truly is in the mind of the beholder and any attempts to make either side wrong is met with a continuation of inconsequential bickering and sometimes battles, something human beings seem to take great delight in.

    I do find it interesting that Marty is questioning the whole premise behind Hubbard’s sharing of the idea of past lives, which did not begin with Hubbard’s thinking. It predates ancient Egyptian times actually and I would presume since history has been countless numbers of times inadequate and incorrect in their summations of our past history, that our time track surely is much longer than any history books will be able to speak of. Most likely because history depends totally on the reliance of the historians finding material objects in which to build a story around. I’m one of those who prefer to go beyond the “proof is in the object.” And I am one of those who trusts in myself first, before all others , which would indicate that if I have past life recall then it’s “mine”, not yours. And therefore not yours or anyone else’s to decide whether it is credible. My two cents. 😀

    • burythenuts

      Thats it!
      BTN is now desperately in need of a hypo full of Thorazine and a fucking cookie!

    • Allow me to add something – if I may.

      It is possible that there are more ways to regard something than simply “True” or “False”.

      Something can be True
      Something can be False
      Something can be both True and False
      and Something can be neither True nor False.

      Human existence – the way we perceive the world as humans – is never going to present the way the world really is to us. We are bound by our sense pathways, and those pathways are not capable of perceiving the way the world actually exists.

      So we need more bins to put our experiences in than just “True”, or “False”. Controversies rage on and on because we only have two bins to put our human experiences in. Some say “true”, others say “false”. And it goes on and on.

      As it happens, a lot of stuff that people experience falls into the category of “both true and false”. If you’ve ever seen a ghost, the most you can say about it is that it was both there and not there, too. The subject of past lives is like that, as well.

      Controversy over: Past lives are both true and false.


      Thank you. I’ve been here all day. Be sure to tip Tony, his advance is late and he needs the money.


      • HyperionCorp

        The problem is with labels. As soon as something becomes true, or false, and the label is habitually used by our cognitive processes, then it becomes a barrier to direct experience, and the sense pathways are further limited.

      • Chocolate Velvet

        Well said, Alanzo. 1000 likes!

        • Thanks, CV.

          Every once in a while I whip out the Nagarjuna and use it to blow everyone away.

          Well, at least the ones who really matter. (:>


      • DeElizabethan

        Reminds me of a past teacher I followed and learned some things from. Some would say it’s black and some white and then there’s the gray area. He said it’s All in the gray area…

  • JustCallMeMary

    What I find amusing is that many followers of Marty are not going to answer the survey because either they never had the recall as promised or they still believe they need to adhere to Hubbard’s policies on not discussing ones case with anyone but the auditor or Case Supervisor.

    The extended replies remind me of all the kooks I met in scientology, the ones who talked about their past lives and adventures and made others cringe in embarrassment.

    • Xenu

      If Marty had MEANT to do a meaningful poll, he would have allowed other answers to question #1. All possible answers affirm belief that one’s past lives are real, and only the type of evidence is asked about. If you’re unsure about their reality, or suspect that the incidents you ran were imaginary, he’s apparently not interested in including you in his results.

    • Agreed.

      But then, part of the Hubbard product for sale, to the followers, was the procedures to delve into their past lives (imaginations), and the joy of whatever incidents they created and entertained themselves with!

      It’s a very tailor made personal activity, this delving into one’s supposed lives lived before this one!

      For me, just reading from two books of Hubbard’s, “Have You Lived Before This Life” and “Dianetics Today”, both books contain real life incidents other people found in their past lives, that was all I needed, to similarly conjure up with my imagination (I’m a born again atheist today, so I don’t believe my past lives were anything but my imagination today), all sorts of adventures.

      We were becoming our own tailor made science fiction authors, making up stories related to what we were interested in finding, that somehow matched whatever mental disabilities, that Hubbard’s science fictionesque mental therapy pointed us towards.

  • Jefferson Hawkins

    As an added note, it became trendy in Scientology (and probably still is) to recall a past life where one was with Hubbard in the late 1940s and early 1950s, was audited by him, went Clear, etc. I heard so many of these stories that it became ludicrous. If true, it would have meant that dozens and dozens, possibly hundreds of people were audited by Hubbard in the late 1940s and early 50s and then promptly died. I think someone would have noticed if Hubbard’s followers had been dropping like flies.

    • cringe

    • It got to bad, on the RPF, I noticed, that people to play one up man ship, would find an earlier and earlier time that LRH audited them!

      Some even thought LRH audited them, way back on the track, back in some earlier space opera civilization. That didn’t count to make one Clear, and instead the only way you could be counted as being Clear and being audited by LRH, was if LRH audited you to Clear in LRH’s lifetime.

      So, that meant people kept squeezing some incident out of LRH’s navy life, that LRH audited them to Clear.


      When LRH wrote the traffic that became the “Running Program” (Cause Resurgence Rundown), when that traffic came out back in the late 1970s, and the RPF members at Clearwater and out in LA were going out to local parks, setting up their pole, and running around it, during the piloting of that rundown, I thought that LRH was bound to come up with other “whole track” therapy procedures, since he mentions in the “Running Program” traffic that the process of the running program, was actually long ago run as a therapy process on exteriorized thetans, who rather than run a body around a pole, but the thetans were made to do huge circular ovals around some point in outer space, and that this had a long term beneficial effect on those exteriorized thetans.

      I extrapolated, that LRH’s “upper OT levels” research, might then continue along in that vein, into therapy processes, like Pat Broeker implied in the LRH Funeral event.

      If one actually takes into account, LRH’s own writings, his final years private traffic, and his chats with those around him, like to Mitoff, to Broeker, regarding the upper levels above OT 8, and one considers Capt Bill Robertson’s justifications for doing whatever “upper levels” which Robertson supposedly “channeled” from Hubbard, but I stick with what I read, from Hubbard, or what I heard direct from people like Pat Broeker, who stated at the LRH Funeral, about LRH’s intent to research therapy on thetans exterior, that at least ties in back to LRH’s writings and lectures of the 1950s, about operating thetan ,and all his casual comments, all through his lectures, here and there, about souls operating without bodies, and how to “rehabilitate” those abilities.

      It’s a huge galactic level piece of blue sky, sales job, obviously. But that seems to be in the human religious tradition, though.

      But he was consistent, over the decades in these soul abilities, and getting the soul up to operating fully by itself, etc, etc. From Science of Survival, where he laid out the Chart of Human Evaluation and Chart of Attitudes, the top tone level discussion, had this god like extreme abilities and freedoms attached.

      So he was into selling that, right from Science of Survival, but even Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health, is just looney in presumptions of the status of Clear!

      He was in effect selling blue sky, from day one.

    • JustCallMeMary

      That’s too funny about the dead PCs, lol! Never thought of that.

      I think some of this ‘dub-in’, as Hubbard called it, occurred because people wanted to be Clear and being a past life clear was, during the 80’s anyway, an easy explanation for the Scientology high and a popular thing to declare being. Now thats a good example of people filling in the vacuum of their mind…..

  • JustCallMeMary

    Wonder if Marty will allow this to go through:

    Mary McConnell | December 8, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Marty, throughout my 18 years in Scientology it was always a known fact that PCs were advised not to discuss their auditing case with others. This includes one’s whole track incidents and past lives.I’m sure it’s still what PCs are told and what scientologists believe to be fact but is this based upon any particular reference?

    By doing this survey, are you saying that none exists and it’s fine for people to talk about that which they have been indoctrinated into believing they must not talk about? I know you asked for ABC answers but, as you can see, some are provding more and specific information about their track. Is there no policy or HCOB addressing this matter of talking about one’s ‘case’ or one’s past lives to others? There seems to have been verbal data about this. I couldn’t find any reference but I don’t have access to all exists.

    Did it also occur to you that some may not answer the survey because they may feel they are violating this ‘no discussing case’ issue? Or that they didn’t get the recall expected in auditing and are embarrassed about it.? Just curious

    • burythenuts

      Ooooh, cool post Mary.

      • JustCallMeMary

        Thanks 🙂

        • burythenuts

          I read through some of the comments. Interesting to see the varied responses.
          When I go to Marty’s site, I notice the same hive mind mentality that permeates this blog as well. Albeit a slightly different “hive”.
          So this was a bit of a polarizing and risky thing for Marty to do.

          Cool yer jets people….that is not a slam…just an observation.

          • sugarplumfairy

            I’ve tried to read the comments on Marty’s blog, but I can’t hang too long there.. It’s too disturbing to see just how deeply indoctrinated people have become.. It feels like quicksand over there..

            • burythenuts

              I agree that sometimes you need to wade through some shit, but then you come on someone who can actually form a thought or two….
              It’s like magic!

    • t0ny0rteg4

      So hang on. I’m really confused. Are you calling bullshit on something Marty is doing by referring to HUBBARD?


      • JustCallMeMary

        Not intentionally…. just trying to put things in perspective and open the door for those sitting silently on the sidelines there to speak up. 🙂

      • JustCallMeMary

        BTW, I like using Hubbard’s baloney to remind scientologists that it’s been stopping them from thinking.

      • JustCallMeMary

        Why are my replies to your reply being removed?

        • sugarplumfairy

          They’re still there.. But in order to see them on my iPad, I had to hit the ‘see more comments’ bar at the bottom of the page..

          • JustCallMeMary

            Thanks but my replies in this sub-thread to Tony’s comment ( 2 replies to the above comment) are gone. They were there for a couple of hours before disappearing. And they are not further down from what I can see. All I see is BosonStark’s below.

            • t0ny0rteg4

              Checked the comment panel, didn’t see anything that had been deleted or flagged. Don’t know what to tell you.

            • JustCallMeMary

              Thanks, Tony. The links to the comments that are listed in my Discus activity work and do take me to the comments but they don’t show up in this thread. Very weird .

            • JustCallMeMary

              Discus has them listed in my activities but I can’t post the links. Here’s what I wrote

              on Scientology and Past Lives: Was L. Ron Hubbard Actually Serious? 2 hours ago

              BTW, I like using Hubbard’s baloney to remind scientologists that it’s been stopping them from thinking.

              on Scientology and Past Lives: Was L. Ron Hubbard Actually Serious? 3 hours ago

              Not intentionally…. just trying to put things in perspective and open the door for those sitting silently on the sidelines there to speak up. 🙂

            • Zer0

              I’ve noticed some stuff randomly disappearing, maybe just a glitch. Also, time of post seems to be malleable- a 6 hour old post will come up as “5 minutes ago.”

            • Observer

              BosunStark’s post from this morning ago keeps showing up as new with the time stamp of “a few seconds ago”.

        • grundoon

          Try refreshing the page.

    • JustCallMeMary

      Well, he allowed it to go through but no comment from him on it… yet 🙂

    • John Onthego

      There is an actual HCO B where LRH warns about sharing the earlier lives one has led… it leads to invalidation of all the other Julius Caesars.

  • rockyslammer

    I came into scn in 1965 as a 17 year old. I left in 1982 as a supposedly OT4 and I did the clearing course etc the old fashioned way. Hiself, LRH, was alive and well and in sole charge the whole time.

    I never met the man but I did spend time with Bill Robertson after we all left in 1982. I have also spent some small time with David Mayo on and off over the years. As you know he was LRH’s last auditor and senior C/S.

    I suspect Bill Robertson was the closest person to LRH that I’ve ever met. Bill was firmly convinced of past lives and the whole space opera thingy. Listening ad nauseum to LRH tapes and stuff I tend to believe he was convinced as well. Of course he was a bullshitter and a devious greedy charlatan as well. Whereas I don’t think Bill was. However being disingenuous on some things doesn’t preclude Hubbard from believing in past lives. After all it was probably the norm in the 50’s for “thinking” people and probably still is for many today.

    Of course if you keep yourself current with modern science and methods you have to have serious doubts of the validity of this belief or theory.

    Marty writes “1. What degree of proof do you have of the existence of previous lifetime identities of your own” . Of course the whole premiss of this sentence is totally wrong. There is no “proof” of any nature that “previous lifetimes” “exist”. This is pure scn talk. Previous lifetimes can only ever be a “belief” – sticking the word “proof” in the sentence is quite frankly a ploy.

    Most ex scn’s I know who left in the 80’s are now mostly atheist – or as I like to say “Darwinians”. And that includes, I think, the last senior C/S under LRH’s watch.

    For myself I discovered that the e-meter can be persuaded to “read” on anything or not, as the case may be. Indeed after I left scn (and was still a believer – just) I scanned my body for “purple people eaters” instead on BT’s.and got a ton of reads! Any old time scn can suppress reads and does it all the time on sec checks – just to get through expensive session time as cheaply as possible

    Also the criminals that came into scn never had their crimes read – ever. And some crimes were quite serious. And, again, how many of us presented a debilitating emotion or pain (etc) to the auditor only to have the auditor say “that doesn’t read”! The e-meter is just outright nonsense. I suspect reads were caused by slight hand pressure differences on the cans. The slightest imperceptible lifting of a finger will decrease the electric contact and the opposite increasing contact. A floating needle being a constant pressure in both hands. I know for a fact that increasing TA is due to the skin in the hands drying out. How many times did we put hand cream on so the session can start? Then it dries out or soaks in during the session reducing the electrical contact. Nuts.

    Modern science seems to say that remembering something over and over aging strengthens the synaptic bonds and thus makes it turn on even harder and it will never “erase”. I have tried “rewiring” and found it very effective. Forgetting is better therapy!

    Science still has a ways to go regarding the brain but my opinion is that they are at last on the right track.

    However if someone proves past lives or proves we are spiritual beings then I will about face in a flash – it is a very comforting concept!

    regards, Martin Ruston

    • HyperionCorp

      Great post.

    • JustCallMeMary

      Love your comment, Martin 🙂

      I think Hubbard believed at one time.. how could we forget the the Cecil Rhodes and Rhodesia Story?

      Rhodesia Story By Dart Smohen, at ESMB

      This was told to me by the brother of the guy who was in Rhodesia with Hubbard in 1966. As to whether it is totally true or not, I will never know, but the two brothers were very dour, humourless management consultants from Manchester. I cannot think of any reason to doubt their story.

      As you know, Hubbard was usually very down on anyone who thought they had been a famous person in a past life. Except him, of course.

      Hubbard firmly believed he was Cecil Rhodes in his previous life. In fact, one of the main reasons he went to Rhodesia was to try and discover where Rhodes had hidden his treasure. (This treasure hunting was a theme through Hubbard’s later life).

      Cecil Rhodes was an outrageous homosexual in his day. In order to get into the “mindset” of Rhodes, Hubbard had to take on his attributes. this is rather ironic, considering Hubbard’s intolerance of gay men and women.

      He got a house out in the bush, very near the Rhodesian side of the Victoria Falls. The brother in Rhodesia (We shall call him JOE) was conscripted as Hubbard’s gofor. There was no telephone and one job Joe did was to arrange a land line to be installed across 40 miles of open bush.

      Hubbard was networking very closely with the Rhodesian Government, led by Ian Smith, Hubbard was looking to create a safe territory for Scn.

      In order to get into the part of Rhodes, Hubbard apparently used to dress up in a kaftan, turban, embroidered slippers and used a long art-deco cigarette holder. He also apparently used face rouge.:

      Joe drove down to the house one day and Hubbard opened the door.

      Joe was gobsmacked. He suddenly remembered something in the car and was around the side of the house doubled over with hysterical laughter. Christ, what the hell is going on here!!

      Anyway, Joe composes himself and tries to go back in again. It took three attempts to control the laughter.

      In the house Hubbard is mincing about the place and Joe is ramming his nails into his hand to stop bursting out laughing. Hubbard is talking about his plans to find the treasure and also how his networking is going.

      After a while Joe has to leave and quickly drives away, only to stop about one mile up the road, convulsed in laughter and now becoming rather worried about what he has become involved in.
      A few days later Hubbard is in Bulawayo meeting with top officials and meets up with Joe. Everything is normal. Nothing is said about the incident.

      This goes on for a few months, Joe down at the house, Hubbard all dressed up, still no idea about where the treasure is buried. Interestingly enough, nothing was ever mentioned to me about any drugs or stuff. There was plenty of drinks, also no reference to any upper level research.Hubbard invited dignatories down to the house on several occasions, where he entertained them well.

      However, one day one of Ian Smith’s men called by unannounced. Hubbard, decked out in all his finery, opened the door.! The look on the man’s face must have been priceless!!

      Within a couple of days Hubbard’s visa was revoked and he was out of the country. He arrived back at London Airport to an organised welcoming crowd.

      It was not long after this that the troubles started with Scientologists coming into the country.

      Ian Smith had been in secret talks with the British Government over the resolution of Rhodesia’s breakaway independence action. I personally have no doubt that Hubbards escapades in Rhodesia were fully mentioned at that time and that they may well have triggered the govermnent clampdown on Scn activities in the UK.

      Hubbard gave a talk on Rhodesia. Obviously he said nothing about what really went on. Instead he went on about OT’s needing to work together, how they could not succeed alone. For Hubbard, the Rhodesia incident became a closed book.

      I asked Joe one day about Rhodesia and all he would say was “Don’t get me started on that” (said laughingly).

      Alan Walter replied:

      Hubbard came back from Rhodesia and stated “A lone OT will fail!”

      What he left out was: Especially if they dress up in a kaftan, turban, embroidered slippers, use a long art-deco cigarette holder and face rouge.

      He also stated: “It takes a team of OTs to win!” He also left out: “We’ll dress them in pretty sailor suits – and they can salute each other and call each other, Sir!”

      I had heard about this Rhodesian episode from two other sources – a fairly high up GO person who had to try and help LRH stay in the UK – and someone who had audited one of the brothers. I had to clean the auditor up (coffee shop) as what came up caved him in!

      Apparently Ian Smith the then Prime Minister of Rhodesia was still in talks with the Prime Minister of England Harold Wilson and the subject of LRH came up that started a whole chain of events – which eventually led to LRH forming the SO and also led to him escaping arrest for deportation at the last moment – when we stole out of Southhampton in the middle of the night on the Royal Scotsman’s maiden voyage.

      Ah! The good old days! – Such intrigue, such adventure and such comedy!


    • Valkov


      How do you explain away non-scientology related accounts such as those compiled on these sites: and, in which young children have been found to ask about their previous life’s families, for example? And these families have actually been traced, identified and found?

      • rockyslammer

        I don’t explain away anything. When properly conducted investigations are done using scientific methods show beyond reasonable doubt I may come back on board.

        There are too many things planted on the internet that are unproved or somebodies pet theory or agenda that it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. I therefore wait for the genuine scientific community to pronounce before I take an interest and even then science has got it wrong on occasion.

        Healthy skepticism is what keeps me sane these days!! I recommend it to all.


        • Valkov

          Thanks Martin. I am also a skeptic – of the supposedly overriding “value” of “science”. If we waited for scientific proof of everything, we would still be living in caves.

          The work that has resulted in started before the internet and the author published a book of her researches many years ago. Essentially you seem to be saying that memory counts for nothing without scientific proof.

          Can you scientifically prove what you had for breakfast a couple of days ago? Yet you may claim to “remember” it.

          But you don’t have to look at the site. You are free not to look.

          • rockyslammer

            Yes we are all free to have beliefs. However I’m not here to debate or argue any point.

            However if I had a broken leg would I go to a hospital or a faith healer? Science has contributed more by far that any religion or faith based system. I’ll stick with them for now thank you.

            I do understand there is lots more to discover. Maybe past lives is one of them.

  • Nojoking

    IMO, at the end of all this discussion, none of it matters anyway. We all play games, some fun and some really violent so not so much fun. IMO, there is some truth in the idea of Reality being an Illusion, and “we” create our own reality. But regardless, I will run with the Scientists for awhile and attempt to avoid those who mimic Hubbards troops by withholding discoveries or creating lies, all in order to keep Mankind Stupid. 😀

    • Zer0

      Nihilism has its place, but ultimately I believe it makes sense to be responsible to perceive things as well as possible.

      • Observer

        Vault hunter?

        • burythenuts

          Observer, I am going to bequeath you my detective gene. I am getting bored with knowing too much.
          This gift is now yours!
          I am going to stop looking outward and start to look more inward!
          May the force be with you!

          • Observer

            I just want to know when Axton’s going to show up. He’s hot. 😉

            • Zer0

              He just posted over at Marty’s blog.

    • burythenuts

      Hmm, I may jog with u for a block or two

  • burythenuts

    Ok, in my regular “flitting” today… Between here, Vance’s Rocking book…too much coffee, buying a bed for the step kid, blah, blah , blah…. NICE Saturday! Even if the weather sucked!

  • Zer0

    I have to give credit to Marty. He is letting comments through fairly liberally. As a mod, to let critical comments go through, that says something. I’m not sure what he blocks, but some of the posters here today were waiting, and it seems their comments were approved.

    • Espiando

      Well, some of them. I called out Glenn Briggs on the historical inaccuracies regarding his “death” at Verdun in 1914 as a Canadian soldier (there were no Canadians at Verdun in 1914, among other things), and Marty didn’t approve that.

      • Zer0

        it seems that he is approving your more recent comments

        • Espiando

          I made three nested comments (reply, reply to reply, reply to reply to reply) due to lack of editing capability. The third of those comments was cleared, the one where I apologized for the m/u on the year of Briggs’ birth. The two that contained the facts that shot Briggs’ story down, though…not approved.

  • Espiando

    I don’t think there’s enough discussion of what Marty’s really up to. We all know that he has a reason for everything he does. Why this, and why now? I can think of a line of reasoning:

    He’s getting material for Book Three. It’s been axiomatic with his previous books that Scientology works when applied in “Standard” fashion, namely all-LRH and no-Demented Midget. I believe he might feel that he needs to sell that to the Kool-Aid Drinkers. Since past lives are a commonality among all Scientologists, he might be getting reports that the alterations in the Tech are causing problems with resolving whole-track issues (and some of the posts on his blog verify this). He wants to pimp Standard Tech as not having those problems.

    In doing so, he’s borderline-violating the long-standing Scn taboo about discussing your case with people other than your auditor and your C/S. This is a torpedo directly at the secrecy which he feels is causing problems in the corporate church. He’s shouting at DM that it’s acceptable to be more open about things, and that the Indies won’t treat the Tech like CoS does. The Indies can spin the whole masonic mysteries aspect of knowledge as simple preparation rather than a money-making scam. No matter how you feel about the Tech, you do have to admit that the Indies seem to be a lot more sincere about it and less willing to regard it as a cash cow.

    And what he’s being open about appears to be an attempt at not only attracting the already-in, but the people who might be attracted to Scn that are turned off by everything about CoS. For the already-in, the vast majority have never done OTVIII, so they believe in past lives uncritically. The attraction of Standard Tech to resolve whole-track issues is appealing. For the not-in-but-attracted, past life analysis is actually a big selling point. It’s one of the least kooky things that the Indies can focus on in order to attract some raw meat to their cause. It’s something safe for them to be open about, unlike the Fourth Dynamic Engram (even though everyone knows about that).

    There’s also an intriguing possibility: with so many of Marty’s blog responses this sincere about past lives, could he be ready to disavow OTVIII as squirreled? Considering that he still has nothing good to say about Captain Bill and David Mayo, and they were two of the prime movers alongside Hubbard at the time OTVIII was released, it’s a possibility. If he does that, how is the Indie crowd going to feel?

    I love trying to read into Marty’s motivations. He’s been the consummate chessmaster so far and made DM look like an ass at every turn. Watching him play the game is as much fun as watching CoS writhe back in the good old days of early 2008, but it’s on a whole different level.

    • Vistaril

      Is that you, Marty?

      • Espiando

        No. I just admire Marty when he gets into his blood-crazed shark mode. Seeing him go after DM is like watching a nature documentary on two male mountain goats during rut season, knowing that one of them’s about to get head-butted off a cliff.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Past lives… hmm… I just had a thought… when is Lisa McPherson’s theta going to pop up in a returning scilon? It’s been long enough, right?

  • P. Burnes

    There’s hardly anything unique or unusual about OOBE’s. They’ve been being reported for many hundreds of years. And past lives have been spoken of in East Indian lore for about 4000 years. One of the major problems with such occurences is that the non-believer demands proof. And that proof has to be stated in Newtonian terms. Well, friends, that can’t be done any more than you can prove you love someone. All these things are experiential and are *felt* rather than planned out. In many cases, such events – or the awareness of them – comes as a total surprise.

    I did over a decade and a half in scio. I served on staff. I was neither a dupe nor crazy, as some posters here would have you believe. I joined for my own reasons and achieved those reasons. The auditing I got was superb and I felt I was able to help quite a few people in return. (They thought so.) Mind you, this was back in what I now think of as the “pre insanity” days. The early 80s were a turning point, I believe, and things really began to go downhill.

    Do BTs exist? Well, my experience with OT3 indicated they did…until I realized that every BT I was auditing was being created by me. The instant I realized that, I had a dial wide floating needle. Go figure.0 Am I OT? Well, I guess that depends on how you perceive that. Some of the things promised I’d been doing since I was 4-5 years old. Others I seem to be able to do now and then, but not with precise intent. I have to say here that most people can be “OT” at certain times, “cause over matter”. Can I communicate over distances without using any material objects or tools? Yes, sometimes. Again, I can’t call on it and do it every time I wish. But my batting average has been pretty good. It’s something I focus on and work at. Nothing particularly magical about it. We are all far more powerful than we’ve been taught. Most simply never realize it and think of themselves as “small”. Actually, we tend to be taught that way.

    Auditing does not work at all for some people (or all people), it would seem. For others, it’s a very long process. You see, it doesn’t actually turn on the auditor or the auditing process nearly so much as on the pc’s intent to improve his condition. While Hubbard provided some interesting tools, it was *I* who had to apply those tools to myself. So auditing – one person focused on and really listening to another (the TRs which so many here have made fun of) – can be extremely valuable to individuals desirous of “doing the work”. Many are not.

    So like all things, scio had value for many, not so much for many. The current state of things has to do with the shift in control from a very sick Hubbard to a totally insane Miscavige.

    My really big question – and where I think the REAL story of scientology lies – is “Why have the authorities, with all the incredible evidence and documentation available – not acted to go after the upper echelon (read “Miscavige”) with hammer and tongs?” I suspect blackmail and a lot of payoffs. But that would need real investigation. I fully believe there was blackmail involved with the IRS as scio violates so many parts of the tax code.

    So it wasn’t/isn’t ALL bad stuff, though a lot of current criminality needs addressing. I think Tony is doing a great service to all with his exposé of scientology. It badly needs cleaning up.

    • indie8million

      Ditto on what you said. Countless religions have spoken about either past lives or that the essence of the person continues after each life.

      As we know, Hubbard took a lot of what he wrote from earlier practices. Even before I was a Scientologist, I believed in ESP, telepathy and other spiritual concepts.

      And, yes, a person can perceive what went on in a room before you got there. I walked into a room and could instantly perceive that it used to be a music room. I had only been there for seconds. Then, looking around for proof, I finally noticed the reliefs on the walls, near the ceilings. Lutes, French horns and other musical instruments were there to prove my perception.

      Think what you want about it. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.
      Amid the cynicism, we all have to keep our integrity about what we can do and who we really are.

      No one needs to approve what anyone believes or has experienced.

      Just because someone hasn’t experienced what you have, doesn’t mean that you’re wrong – or that they are. To each his own.

      • Peter

        Thank you for your thoughts. We are 100% aligned on your comments.

        I have never felt “better than” anyone else, just blessed to have gotten what I got out of scio. Those experiences just opened me to further things that I cherish daily. All in all, I’ve found life good, despite many setbacks…which always turned out to be lessons, painful though some of them have been. I’m alive and feeling great. Each moment is its own treasure. What more might I ask for?

        • indie8million

          Thank you, Peter. I would say ditto to everything you said. Ron put down on paper things I may never encountered, searching through old philosophies. Some say, “Ron plagiarized all that but every philosopher builds on what people learned before. Note that he does give credit in SOS – at least before DM took out the acks.

          Now that I know what he was putting forward, I can understand some of the earlier stuff better.

          Nice to talk to ya.

  • [I was going to post this on Mark Rathbun’s ‘Past Life Survey’ but fearing rejection haven’t.]

    My name is Andrew Robertson of sound mental health with a sanity certificate signed by myself to prove it.

    I believe there are implant stations in Eketahuna, Dargaville and Raumati South (on the intersection of Poplar Avenue and Rosetta Road)

    These stations are operated by mercenaries from the planet Zog paid for by the Marcabian Internal Revenue Service.

    one of my past lives I was Mark Antony and had a passionate affair with
    the gorgeous Cleopatra, the last pharaoh of Ancient Egypt.

    my surprise to discover that her thetan was now residing in the meat
    body of the equally gorgeous Kim Kardashian whom I shall now woo away
    from from whatever insignificant male is presently occupying her time,
    marry her her and have 10 daughters.

    already chosen their names: Klytemnestra, Khrysanthis, Khthonia,
    Klytie, Komaetho, Kornix, Kreusa, Krino, Ktesylla, Ktimene and Kyrene.

    Just a minute, that’s 11 daughters. Oh well, one more pink iPod purchase is neither here nor there.

    am entirely sane and any suggestions to the contrary will be met with a
    vigorous response from my lawyers Kobrin, Moxon, Sue, Grabbit and


    • sugarplumfairy

      Haha.. Best comment ever.. No wonder we adore you..In fact, I’d give Kim a run for her money, but there’s no competing with that booty..

  • bodhi

    The OT levels are just a trip through LRH’s mind. I hope he made it up his bridge. Hey I thought you crossed bridges. What’s with the up thing.