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Listen to Jim Jones root for Scientology against Paulette Cooper in a 1978 Jonestown address

Jim_Jones2Now that we’re into a new month and our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely, is taking us on tours around the country (and soon across the pond), we’re going to begin posting material here that supplements our story about Paulette Cooper.

Miss Lovely is a book that looks at Paulette’s entire life, from her survival of the Holocaust as a small child to her more recent years as an author in Florida. But she’s most well known, of course, for her 1971 book, The Scandal of Scientology, which resulted in the most legendary campaign of retaliation and ruination in the history of Scientology’s spy wing, the Guardian’s Office. That campaign even included a plot to frame Paulette for a felony which resulted in her being indicted in 1973 and facing 15 years in federal prison.

In 1977 the FBI raided Scientology looking for evidence of the church’s infiltration and burglarizing of federal agencies, but the FBI also discovered evidence of the many plots against Paulette. Initially, the FBI had to remain quiet about what it found in the raid. But then, news that Paulette Cooper had been framed on orders from top Scientology officials finally became public after a pair of Washington Post stories by Ron Shaffer appeared on April 28 and 29, 1978, followed by many other reports in the press.

One person who took notice of those stories was an unlikely observer in South America.

Late in our book project, one of our researcher friends discovered that in a large collection of materials at San Diego State University, a really unique and disturbing audio recording exists. Collected by the Jonestown Institute at SDSU, it’s a recording of Peoples Temple leader Jim Jones, one of 971 tapes recovered by the FBI which preserve the cult leader giving his frequent addresses to his followers at the Jonestown compound in Guyana.

And on June 10, 1978, Jim Jones talked about Paulette Cooper.

Jones included it in his “mid-afternoon news” address, and he can be heard reading from a version of Shaffer’s April 29 story. Descriptions of Paulette’s harassment are provided to Shaffer by attorneys Paul Rheingold — who represented her in a 1972 harassment suit against the New York org — and Virgil Roberts — who had wrapped up a settlement in 1976 to end several of Scientology’s lawsuits against The Scandal of Scientology (see Chapter 13 in Miss Lovely).

What’s really interesting though is the way Jones interrupts his reading of the press account to provide his own running commentary — he’s sure that Scientology is getting the raw deal, and that Paulette was being unjustifiably exonerated.

At the beginning of the recording, you’ll hear Jones place the Peoples Temple in context to other groups — Synanon, the Black Panthers, and Scientology — that he apparently felt some kinship to, at least in the sense of a persecuted and misunderstood group. And why was Scientology being persecuted, according to Jim Jones?

“The reason for this, according to US UPI source that prefers to remain anonymous, is because Scientology has revealed how high the Nazi influence goes in the police work of USA, USA Customs, Treasury Department, and the police of the entire world. So the new attack. I’ll give you some detail of it,” he says.

So the revelations of the framing of Paulette Cooper are “the new attack” on Scientology, which Jones seems to feel is akin to an attack on the Peoples Temple, which is fascinating.

You’ll then hear him read from the newspaper article, making sarcastic asides about how he doubts the government’s “sources” — which were actually based on Scientology documents that would be released to the public a couple of years later.

It’s also fascinating to hear Jones express admiration for Scientology’s litigious attacks against Paulette and others.

“The Church of Scientology sued her in New York, Los Angeles, Detroit, England, Scotland, Australia, Ontario, and British Columbia, each time charging that her book had defrauded– uh, had defamed the church. There’s something to be said for suits. I wish we could think about that. Our lawyers here feel the same. Sometimes lawyers in USA don’t want to be caught taking on the outrageous liars of publishers and press.”

Listen for yourself, and hear how Jones sarcastically describes Paulette: “She looks — her long blonde hair straggling down clear to her navel — she looks like a poor, mistreated dear little thing.”

 

 
Five months after this recording was made, on November 18, 1978, US Congressman Leo Ryan and members of his entourage were murdered as they were attempting to return to the US after visiting the Peoples Temple Guyana compound. Jones then ordered suicides of his followers, and 909 men, women, and children, including Jones, died, most from poisoning, but a few from gunshot wounds.

We expect that a question which occasionally comes up will show up frequently in today’s discussion: Could Scientology ever experience a “Jonestown”? We think it’s unlikely for a number of reasons, but we’re curious to see what former church members have to say.

We do feel confident about one conclusion we came to after hearing this tape. Jim Jones was one creepy dude, but we imagine that the Guardian’s Office discussions about Paulette were even more disturbing. If only a recording of such a thing existed.

 
——————–

BOOK NOTES

 
3D-Unbreakable

Check out the interactive map to our ongoing tour.

We didn’t get a chance to include photos in our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely, so we’re posting them at the Underground Bunker. We’ve created a dedicated page for them, and we hope you go through them all, then come back here and tell us your thoughts!

Copies of the paperback version of ‘The Unbreakable Miss Lovely’ are on sale at Amazon. The Kindle edition is also available, and shipping instantly.

 
Our appearances…

June 11: New York City (with Paulette Cooper) 5:30 to 7 pm. We’re keeping the venue on the down-low at this point. If you’re interested in coming to this unique event — Paulette in New York talking about Scientology where her story began — drop us a line so we get an idea how many are coming.

June 20: Chicago (with Christian Stolte) The Annoyance Theater, 5pm: This event is SOLD OUT.

June 22: Toronto (with Paulette Cooper) Toronto Public Library, 40 Orchard View Blvd, 7:30 pm, sponsored by the Centre for Inquiry-Canada
June 23: Toronto (with Paulette Cooper) The “Getting Clear” conference

June 28: Clearwater, Florida (with Paulette Cooper) Clearwater Public Library, 2 pm

July 12: Washington DC, Center for Inquiry (with Paulette Cooper)

Late July/Early August: ENGLAND

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on June 1, 2015 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of LA attorney and former church member Vance Woodward

UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • CK

    I wouldn’t be one bit surprised if Co$ down the line took a page from the Jonestown playbook and did the whole “revolutionary suicide” thing.

    • L. C. Spencer

      Nah, they’re not visionaries, just mercenaries.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        I second that ‘nah’.

  • L. Wrong Hubturd

    Miss Lovely enjoying some Marmite with her toast this morning. Well, maybe not enjoying the Marmite per se, but giving it a go.

    • Donna Cline Sargent

      was wondering if you liked it–sounds weird to me–lol

    • romanesco

      But we already knew she was a brave woman.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Ooh how brave of you! But don’t let Obs see it. She’ll come over all Victorian lady with too-tight corset.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I thought about her as I had my first bite. (Looks over shoulder)

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      LWH, you can have some at my house. Bring your own bread, eh? ‘Twas my hubby’s favorite but of course he was a brit. I like it on occasion, even on bread. Bwaaaa!

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I’ll be bringing my own now.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          How about with some chocolate covered mangos too?

          • L. Wrong Hubturd

            Sure! Off for an English breakfast now. Hmmmm.

    • Kim O’Brien

      LONDON !

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        KIM! DENVER! 😉

  • nottrue

    Reminds me of the CCHR….

  • Knusern

    listen to John Oliver Making a point using Scientology 🙂 at 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6ar3xJL_Q

    • Graham

      Huh. Video not available in my country [Goes off into corner to sulk].

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Get ‘Hola Better Internet’ for your browser, Graham. I love it. You can enable it temporarily if you’d rather not have it running at all times. It doesn’t slow Chrome down at all for me.

    • Snake Plissken

      The Scientology brand has been reduced to a punchline of a joke, other than it’s real estate assets and financial holdings it’s completely worthless. It’s product is about as in demand as leaking barrels of toxic waste.

      • Missionary Kid

        $cientology is a leaking barrel of toxic waste. 😉

  • Frodis73
    • Science Doc

      If I transitioned the headline would be ugly old guy now ugly old gal. Good on him for making it go right. Sad he he had to wait so long to be accepted as himself.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Top Ten Reasons Scientology Will Never Follow a Jonestown Order:

    #1 By the time the order gets repeated through all the orgs’ channels, instead of “Do A Bunk”, it will read: “Go to Bunker”.

    #2 By the time every scientologist has word cleared, clay demo’d, and chinese drilled the order, they’ll be so confused they’ll attest to a “Done” and assure the examiner they hope everyone experiences similar gains.

    #3 By the time every scientologist has been sec checked, faked their way through the ethics program, and gotten every member to sign their petition to reenter the group, there won’t be a group left, so they’ll just wander back to their bunks.

    #4 By the time all the Executive meetings on how to battleplan the order are over, nothing will ever get done.

    #5 By the time all the Flag Banking Officers and Org Treasurers finish FP (Financial Planning), funding will be cut for all the Executives’ battleplans.

    #6 By the time the Whales get wind of the order, they’ll discover a new guru and sail off for safe harbor.

    #7 By the time the scientology salesmen see the order, they’ll realize they missed their calling, collect their commissions, and hop on board at Herbalife.

    #8 By the time the media exposes the order, all scientologists will be told the order does not exist, so they ignore it.

    #9 By the time Tom Cruise reads about the order in the media, he will insist it doesn’t exist, then disappear along with Dave, and everyone will just go home.

    #10 By the time David Miscavige is ready to issue the order, he will realize he’s the only one who can do it right, so he does. No one was left who knew what to do, the order never got issued at all.

    http://i.imgur.com/NutcuMi.jpg?1

    • Tony Ortega

      So awesome.

    • Missionary Kid

      I agree with Tony. $cientology is worse bureaucratically than most organizations, and it’s so inefficient because it relies so heavily on large numbers of people to accomplish a simple task. It’s getting worse because there are fewer and fewer people to do the work.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I spent a free moment after lunch imagining such an order actually coming down inside the bubble and what would, in fact, actually happen. I soon found myself laughing so hard, I thought I’d share as another anecdote.

        • Missionary Kid

          I can imagine how liberating it is to be thinking what were once forbidden thoughts.
          $cientology is fun…for critics.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            The Sea Org has always been something of a McHale’s Navy looney outfit, but without the lulz. You have no idea how impossible it was to get Anything done ever.

            • Missionary Kid

              McHale was far more competent than Hubbard or Miscavige. Hubbard probably did more for Japan than the U.S.N.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Scientology has no equal. Can’t compare ‘me to anyone!

            • lmnop

              and McHale was funny! 🙂

    • Graham

      Plus nothing could be done until they’d had fund-raiser after fund-raiser to collect money to purchase the Kool-Aid, plus the ‘Ideal’ glass jugs and beakers.

      • Missionary Kid

        And all the “ideal” glass jugs and beakers will have to be approved by DM.

        • Snake Plissken

          and It might take a while to procure enough 55 gallon drums of niacin to mix up into a lethal cocktail.

          • Missionary Kid

            Only one drum would be necessary, since, at the most, there’s 40k $cientologists.

            • Snake Plissken

              They’ve built up quite a tolerance to it.

    • Snake Plissken

      The staff wouldn’t be able to scrape up enough money in the orgs to cover the cost of the paper cups

    • Jgg2012

      #11. David Miscavige will never come out of hiding and enforce the order, just as he will never attend a deposition or testify in court or attend an audit.

    • L. C. Spencer
    • Truly excellent 🙂

    • Ella Raitch

      *rimshot*

    • PoisonIvyHerself

      Should be the best rated post ever!

  • Missionary Kid

    Don’t forget to click on the heart below the number of posts to raise the Bunker’s profile with Disqus.

  • nottrue

    There goes the old homestead….

    • Observer

      “Caring for my mom and her MEST” sounds kind of contemptuous to me. Like “praise Ron she’s out of my hair and I can get back to pouring my money and hers into COB’s pockets rocketing up the Bridge.”

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        She has that pod people look. No one home. One truth leaked out from her last firing brain cell: “needs a lot of work”. Maybe a cry for help.

        • Observer

          I wonder if she has any idea how close she’s been living to COB’s wife.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            My Magic 8 ball sez: Probably not.

          • Dr_Orpheus

            I wonder if she even remembers that COB once had a wife.

    • romanesco

      The manic look in her eyes makes me wonder exactly what happened last September.

    • Science Doc

      This makes me sad on par with the disabled guy being fleeced as described on Mike’s blog today. I checked to see if the house was listed on some of the popular on line aps, and it wasn’t there. I’ll guess that she’s hoping to sell it herself and avoid paying a listing agent with a split to the seller’s agent. That’s a pretty meager savings of 5% against the possibility of the agent selling it for 10% more than you think it’s worth. All cash would simplify the transaction but not cost her any money. It’s real easy to get a mortgage these days, and at closing it’s all cash to you, unless she’s talking about carrying a note, as in one clam loaning money to another. Rimforest is an inexpensive very little place with a cabin vibe. Even if the house is only 1000 sq ft, $65 a sq. ft. would look like a steal, unless the place is structurally unsound. If it’s 800 sq ft., needs a new roof and the plumbing and wiring replaced, I could understand that price.

    • Dr_Orpheus

      Do you think she’ll be regged into outright donating the entire selling price to IAS and therefore unable to purchase that Clear Package?

      • Graham

        Aw come on. Don’t be so cynical. They’ll let her buy her Clear package THEN they’ll get her to donate the rest of the selling price. What do you think they are- heartless?

        • ze moo

          You make funny…….

    • Eivol Ekdal

      She is just a short bicycle ride from the CST Headquarters and vaults. If only she could get job there!

  • Snake Plissken

    The Frederick County Council in Maryland votes on whether or not to allow the cult to take advantage of a historical designation of property loophole and open a Narconon facility near Camp David

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-media-war-over-scientology-ahead-of-a-key-political-vote-near-camp-david/2015/05/31/16e355b0-03d9-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      How toxic is the scientology brand?

      Scientology is so toxic, they even caused the Democrats and Republicans to agree on something, and without even so much as a bribe or a single promised favor.

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      “I am appalled,” Rodgers said, “that he would use the additional years we have added to his life to attempt to foment hate and prejudice against the very people who salvaged him from ruin.”

      Arrogant jack-asses. We “salvaged” him. Pffft. He isn’t garbage, he’s a human being you *^#$&$*!#^!!!

  • Sookie Sookie

    “Even though, in the long run, the Fascist system will win, and it’s getting worse, daily…”

    That part gave me shivers. It’s like a hint of how committed he already was to the horror that he’d go on to perpetrate.

  • J. Swift

    There has already been a financial Jonestown in the Church of Scientology. News of the devastating financial mass suicide has largely been covered up by OSA’s use of threats, binding contracts, and disconnection against the victims.

    The IAS is now mopping up the few remaining financially solvent status-seeking survivors by use of trophies.

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      Hubbard’s scripted a devious auto-pilot running cult which takes the dupes so much effort to extract themselves from once they are caught up in it.

    • PoisonIvyHerself

      Excellent post, Jeff.

  • Sebastian L. Jackson

    BREAKING OFF-TOPIC NEWS: Kerri Rivera, lieutenant to ex-Scientologist and Genesis II Church leader Jim Humble and promoter of bleach cures for autism, has erased her Facebook profiles and shut down her e-mail and websites. This follows the conviction of Daniel Smith of Spokane, WA for selling the same bleach cures last week, as well as critical news coverage. The admins for her book’s official Facebook page insist that Kerri is taking time off, even though her actions of abandoning her social media presence do not suggest a mere break. All further developments will be posted.

    http://docpoint.com/system/providers/avatars/000/000/030/large/kerri_rivera.jpg?1364432902

    • Frodis73

      Ha! Great news!

    • lynn

      her CDAutism.org site is gone as well. Thank goodness..that site used autism logos that I thought were misleading.

      • Sebastian L. Jackson

        You thought it was the logos that were misleading?!

        • lynn

          in so much as giving the impression that the Autism community approved of such a treatment, by using the “colorful puzzle piece”, that one automatically associates with autism. As far as anything this woman or anyone else connected to such nonsense as spouting a “cure”. Any and all of her statements associated with mms should land them all behind bars.

          • Sebastian L. Jackson

            Ah, I get it now.

    • Robert Hammond
      • lynn

        when Sebastian L. Jackson posted that info other day, I looked up more info including the cdautism.org site which was still up at the time. Thank goodness that & a couple other links have since been disabled. Unfortunately there are still a LOT of links with misleading info associated. It is heartbreaking to see so many people inquire on these pages looking for(& thinking falsely) a cure. Before the other day, I had never heard of mms or Kerri Rivera nor would it have ever occurred to me to seek out a cure for my autistic child…it’s so sad that some parents have been given such false hope and such misinformation.

        • Robert Hammond

          I’ve been looking at these quack cures, cults, and other pseudoscience for some time. My go to resource for these scams is Science Based Medicine. It is so easy for desperate people to fall for false promises and fantastic claims made by these scammers. It helps to look at the evidence-based approach and submit these extraordinary claims to a critical perspective. See: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/bleaching-away-what-ails-you/

          • lynn

            The internet has become such a useful tool. People like DM & Kerri Rivera can’t hide and carry on unimpeded.

    • PickAnotherID

      From the DOJ press release, ” He faces a statutory maximum of 34 years in prison at his Sept. 9 sentencing.”

      Also from the PR, ” Chlorine dioxide is a severe respiratory and eye irritant that can
      cause nausea, diarrhea and dehydration. According to the instructions
      for use that Smith provided with his product, nausea, diarrhea and
      vomiting were all signs that the miracle cure was working.”

      Sounds an awful lot like claims related to massive doses of niacin by a certain group we all know.

      Full statement at http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/seller-miracle-mineral-solution-convicted-marketing-toxic-chemical-miracle-cure

    • Could almost not happen to a more deserving outfit…

  • Observer

    For the new people, Black Rob is an Anon who gets screen caps of Scientologists’ posts and puts them up on ESMB and WWP.

    Refresh

    • Science Doc

      What the hell indeed. Makes no goddam sense,

    • ze moo

      The very definition of magical thinking.

    • Snake Plissken

      I was going to say that he will be cringing at that when he sobers up like the rest of us are, but the sad part about it is he’s not even drunk

      • Robert Hammond

        When he wakes up, he’ll be like one of those people who posted drunk fraternity party pics when they were in college, but now trying to scrub their profiles so they can get a real job.

    • Chee Chalker

      It’s not going to help Tampa in the Stanley Cup………go Hawks!!!!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Not a chance!

    • Jimmy3

      “glowing with white…” My dog’s ears just perked up like he’d heard something.

      • Observer

        Refresh
        .

        • Jimmy3

          From the X-Files episode. I love that.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      1000 over-stimulated Scientologists are the “centre of the world”? That’s some pretty low expectations.

    • sugarplumfairy

      I love how he has to explain to his readers that 800 is 50% of 1600.. That cracks me up.. Can you say ‘remedial’ clear?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I love how he insinuates the rise of tourist business is due to scientology, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that visitors or on the beach and avoid downtown (scientology) like it was infested with plagued rats.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist
  • Jimmy3

    Wow. Who knew Jim Jones was such a nutjob?

    • Robert Hammond

      Yep. Almost as bad as Hubbard, but not quite as out of touch with reality.

    • Snake Plissken

      He’s kind of like an L Ron Hubbard, except he used to brush his teeth.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Heh 😛

  • nottrue
  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ Reminder +–+ RED X ***
    Yesterday was the continuation of the day before with beautiful scores in NY & LI, then Cin & Alb and finally Sac & Sfb scraping in. Still NO result for the straggling Boston’s “2,500 years”, going up to 9 sticky ones.

    Let’s hope that the other regions will follow the success of the East Coast, Midwest & South West, I have selected LA to replace NY which is all but “clear”
    SpamTrack has been updated today 1st of June at 4:30pm est : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-120#post-2537737

    RedX tips (including how to complaint to CL) : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-120#post-2533632
    Flag co$ lies : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml
    F5… Imagination by Archann enhanced by Sookiesookie for RedX, and flickred by Aeger Primo https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/16748176442/in/set-72157642802079293

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Jenna Miscavige Hill has just started a blog of her own called ‘Wayward Daisy’. Targeted towards the women and mothers amongst us the blog offers gorgeous photography, recipes, fun family ideas, and even more beautiful photography of this happy little family.

    If you know me personally, you will know that I had a rough start in life. I was born into Scientology and escaped when I was 21. Writing my memoir was a therapeutic and life changing experience.

    I am writing this blog because I have learned much over the years about what is important to me in life, what makes me happy and am still learning how to overcome other aspects of my past. Writing often helps me sort out my feelings.

    I think it would be nice of us to support her.

    http://www.waywarddaisy.com/

    Jenna’s book, Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape can be bought from Amazon. Please use the Amazon widget at the top of Tony’s blog to order your books.

    • The Dude

      Done.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Really?! You the man, Dude 😀

        • The Dude

          I loved her website and read her book.
          Why would I not?
          I really read every story that was on there. Some inspiring. Some tragic

    • lynn

      Have already bought & read her book. Went to her blog & started reading..first post, how to organize & declutter your house…oh, I am hooked now! I desperately need that info..lol She’s a beautiful young woman and I’m so happy she found her way out of Scientology…she can only continue to blossom.

    • SarahDB

      Just read her last post on tidying up…inspiring! Thanks Betty!

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      Thank you so much for this heads up Andrea, I tweeted out the link (and thanks to you) and I am already so excited about de-cluttering. Also excited about Thredup.com!! 🙂

      • SP Wogsy

        It’s a good book Nolagirl. I bought it a couple of weeks ago as I heard about it on FB via Elizabeth Gilbert. The author also has a video where she talks aboutthe method. Very inspiring indeed! : )

        • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

          I will be looking in to it Wogsy. 🙂 We are almost done remodeling this place so, very soon everything will be coming out of storage in the attic and I’ll be sorting through it all and using those tips. 🙂

      • Sookie Sookie

        I did *not* need to know about thredup.com! (Except, apparently I did, since I just put in my first order… excite, excite!!!) :-p

  • sugarplumfairy

    Jeeez.. That is amazing and really creepy audio.. What a sick, self-important bastard.. I’m thinking it’s a good thing Paulette never wrote about the peoples’ temple.. Jeez.. Those poor, pathetic people.. forced for months to listen to that bilious, conniving, monotonous voice.. holy crap, that is disturbing..

    • Robert Hammond

      I totally agree with everything you just said. You are talking about Hubbard, right? That Jim Jones guy was pretty creepy too, btw.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    The creepy Jim Jones tape is creepy.

    The tone and cadence of his voice in this tape has a strangely familiar similarity to the way L. Ron Hubbard spoke. I wonder if this is a common feature among malignant narcissists?

    Jones’ comment about “The FBI took all their records” brought back a memory:

    While the FBI agents were raiding the Pac Complex (“Big Blue”, “The Complex”, Pac Base, “Cedars”, etc.) I was there, running around slipping out of the fence to get Heber some more 35mm film for documentation and hiding Project 23 files above the ceiling tiles in what would become AOLA.

    While standing in the “Horseshoe” area on New Hampshire Street, I noticed that many of the FBI agents were carrying “banker’s boxes” into the entrance and down into the Bureau 1 hallway where they were going through the files. I even walked down the hallway to watch them sorting through the folders in the file cabinets until they chased me and some other Scientologists out. My thought had been someone should watch them.

    The idea of the boxes with contents unknown being brought INTO the area by the FBI disturbed me. I believe later this was seized upon as a basis for claiming that the FBI had planted all the so-called incriminating documents. Essentially that the FBI had fabricated all the evidence that was then used to falsely convict Mary Sue Hubbard and the others. I think that many Scientologists still believe that it was all made up. The official story told to Scientologists by Heber and other executives was that the Scientologists were only convicted of “stealing copy paper” since no original documents were taken, only copies made.

    As to the question: “Could Scientology ever experience a “Jonestown”?”, I have had various ideas about this over the years. I think that it is a scenario that had complex origins at Jonestown, but there had been preparations for the suicide drink made long before the event, and if I recall correctly, the camp had had trial drills to prepare the members for it. I do not know of anything exactly similar within Scientology.

    During the LRH death announcement event at the Palladium in Hollywood in 1986 the concept of the “final OT level” was spoken about. That it was done entirely free of the body (as in: After the body is dead) as a spiritual being. One would study the technology of it after you had finished all the previous OT levels, and then after you “dropped the body” you would do this last OT level.

    I wonder about this. I don’t know if it is still talked about or if it is in any technical or policy issues. Perhaps it is a secret told only to OT VIII completions. But it seems like a recipe for suicide. Why wait for the body to die? Do your next OT level now now now now now. That could look really attractive when life gets rough.

    On the other hand it is a little like the Christian belief in Heaven: If Heaven is such a great place and you get to hang out with Jesus and God, why wait? It seems only the rule that suicide is a sin that condemns you to Hell keeps Christians from leaving us in droves.

    But of more significance to Scientologists is the pervasive belief in “past lives” and more importantly it’s logical extention: “future lives.” I, when I was a Scientologist, firmly believed that I had lived many many past lives and that I would have many many future lives. And that my future lives would be much better because of my auditing and training in Scientology. I imagined that I would be coming back into Scientology and the Sea Organization as a much better spiritual being, freed of the failures that plagued me.

    Future lives become much more than a belief or a hope. They become an escape strategy. Some where buried is always the idea that “dropping the body” is always a final solution to unsolvable problems. The guys who were handling then Scientologist Steven Fishman had convinced him that giving Scientology all his money and “ending cycle” (taking a suicide drug) was how he would get to the next Scientology level.

    There is no “sin” in dropping the body if you are a Scientologist. There is of course the crap-shoot of what circumstances you may experience in your next life, but Scientologists feel that they know they can steer themselves to suitable baby bodies in wealthy families to assure the resources to continue Scientology. And Scientology does frown on skipping out on unpaid debts to itself so you might have to do amends when you come back. But on the plus side is the “Scientology Passport” that documents your progress in Scientology this lifetime, so you can walk into Scientology next life and by proving who you had been, start up where you left off. Kind of like saving your video game so you can come back to it later.

    There is also the belief that certain things done to a person can not only damage them now, this life, but the effects can persist into the next. Many of the things one encounters in Scientology auditing are “electronic incidents.” Being hit with electronic energies can scramble and trap a ‘spiritual being’ with or without a body. A person who has been given ECT by psychiatry in this life is usually banned from doing much Scientology auditing. They have to wait for next lifetime. It would not be a stretch for it to be ‘discovered’ that ECT is so bad that it is better to drop the body than to allow it to be done to you ever.

    Taken together, these beliefs and fears of Scientologists can make suicide a solution to a problem, instead of a last desperate choice. The morality of it was absent. In my own experience, when I was ideating, the problem with suicide was two-fold, first, it would upset my friends and family, and second it would hurt. While there were probably ways to solve the second issue, I couldn’t deal with the first one.

    So, can there be a Scientology “Jonestown”? I think there could be. The underlying belief structure allows it and prepares one for it. But it would require Duplicitious Miniscule to somehow raise a threat awareness high enough among Scientologists and then order it as a solution. I don’t see this happening in the broad group of public Scientologists. I do see it as a possibility in a mostly closed and isolated group such as Int Base or the Freewinds or possibly the CST compound where Shelly is. Under the conditions of a law enforcement raid he could spread enough fear images of incarceration, psych treatment (including drugs and ECT), brainwashing and torture with the touchstone of the incineration of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco that a solution of mass suicide might be accepted. It would be sold as “The elite of the elite of Scientology Sea Organization Members escaping so that they can come back in new lives (“we come back” is the motto of the Sea Organization) and re-build Scientology management.

    It would take a specific set of circumstances. A forceful FBI or other law enforcement raid could be a trigger. And I don’t think it would occur if DM was not at that location.

    I have often thought a “quiet raid”, would work, if the FBI was focused on the people, and not recovering evidence. Something like a blockade around Int. Not invading, but just encircling. Calmly taking down the fences but no force, no guns. Setting up tables where people can come and talk. Inspecting what goes in and out. Not allowing food in, but having it available for distribution as long as the people inside come and get it, thus allowing for communication. Bringing families to the tables so they can meet. Offering free transport those in, no strings attached. It would take weeks or months but eventually the idea that they were under siege would be replaced by the reality that nothing bad was happening and those inside could leave (with escorts) if they wanted to.

    • Snake Plissken

      It sounds about as creepy as this

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9NYh_VUWwM

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        I had not heard that specific message before. It sounds unquestionably to be Hubbard himself.

        This is the exact thing I was trying to articulate: The consequences of being in the hands of Psychiatry are far worse than death. Extend that to “law enforcement”, because “law enforcement is a tool of the psychs” and you start to see the scenario I was envisioning.

        I also note where Hubbard says: “I’m not from this planet.”

        I am so sorry if I ever convinced anyone that this mad malignant narcissist was to be believed, trusted or followed.

        • MaxSpaceman

          Surely you are forgiven, as you were hypnotized to the point of not being yourself, and a rabid Sea Borg, dutifully performing Ron Hubbard’s constructs of living.

        • Anonymous

          It’s Hubbard all right. I’m surprised you never heard this as it was fairly commonly available.

          Listening to it years later with all the eye-witness personal experience stories about Scientology published by ex-members (as well as the release of a great deal of the previously confidential material of Scientology itself, much if it authored by Hubbard, makes for some astonishing comparisons between the meaning that was received when this lecture was first heard…versus now.

          The self-serving lies Hubbard told in this lecture are still seen by various Indie Scientology groups as “proof” that Hubbard was a good guy and really did cancel Disconnection and other horrible practices within the church.

          For those with interest, the link below is to a 2012 article by Stephen Kent titled
          A War Over Mental Health Professionalism: Scientology Versus Psychiatry.” It is published on website of the National Center for Biotechnology Information:

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856510/

          The above article is long and scholarly, but provides an excellent rebuke to Hubbard’s idiotic rant titled” The Psychiatrist at Work” linked here:

          http://www.suppressiveperson.org/sp/archives/3074

      • MaxSpaceman

        In 1967, The Summer of Love, Ron Hubbard Sr. dropped LSD with Steven Boyd (actor, Ben Hur, as Messala; Fantastic Voyage) as they travelled the Mediterranean on Ron’s yacht Apollo.

        By 1968, Ron Sr. manifests his hallucinations by stating, “I am not from this planet.” Uh-huh, yeah. Right.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      The never ending scientology irony: anyone who’s attempted to “drop the body” on purpose before being a member bars you. But once you’re in, you are acceptable as long as the cash holds out.

      I don’t see that kind of kumbaya raid being very successful, Michael. Look at how scientologists react when Tory Magoo comes skipping down the street, smiling and waving at them!

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        Yep. I know, I’m a dreamer. But I think that enough non-violent, non-force presence with calm communication long enough, fears of harm and bad things happening would diminish and provide a presence that those who want to leave can go to. Without being chased by others or having a “Blow drill” hanging over them.

        The people who wanted to leave with Leo Ryan were probably the trigger. There was just the small party and no preparation for possible consequences.

        In any case, it should not be done when DM is there.

        • ReallyMGM

          Jones was deep into plans for the final solution. He had the poison on hand and it was being tested by his doctor (another mentally disturbed person). One of Jones’ sons has said with the Ryan group there were the three things Jones hated and feared the most: politicians, press, and concerned relatives. Only a very few left, but there were two entire families who had been with him since his Indiana days. It was an ultimate betrayal.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Hey, maybe they should set up a booth at the Walmart where they all shop with their pitiful pay. Free bus fares, free escape transport, free meals, escape phones, clothes.

          • MaxSpaceman

            They (the Sea Borg) have to buy the more expensive soaps and shampoos, etc., as they must be “scent free” – because of Ron Hubbard circa 1970s on til 1986. How weird is that !?!?!

          • Michael Leonard Tilse

            That’s a great idea.

        • Robert Eckert

          “I know, I’m a dreamer…” but you’re not the only one.

    • Missionary Kid

      The belief that one is going to hell if one commits suicide is a Catholic one, and not followed by many protestant Christians. There is still a strong emphasis against suicide, but the condemnation of a person’s soul to hell is not there.

    • romanesco

      For there to be a Jonestown incident in Scientology, Miscavige would have to be willing to commit suicide. Can anybody really see that happening?

      Miscavige is out for his own gain and self-aggrandizement only. Scientology is not his personal vision, and he has no investment in it other than that. If it stopped serving his purposes, he’d just move on.

      More likely would be a situation where a disgruntled, half-insane Hubbard devotee creates such a scenario. Given the character of the situation now, the likelihood is somewhere in the nil to negligible range I’d say, but possibly a good idea for a short story, in case anybody wants to use it.

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        I don’t think it is that simple. DM is a sociopath who might decide to go out with a bang. He is known to be mortally afraid of going to prison. So he might try to do something if he thinks evidence or testimony could fall into LEO hands. I don’t think he can survive in the world without thugs to command and money to burn. He ain’t goin’ back to Philly.

  • lmnop

    Kitten antidotes for those creeped out after listening to Jim Jones, shot these last year at Worldfest at Woodley Park in Lake Balboa, CA:

    • beauty for ashes

      Kitten therapy!!!!! Just want to plant a peck on that tiny pink nose <3 <3 <3

    • Graham

      Is the one at the top training to be Hypno-Kitty?

      • lmnop

        just relax and look into her eyes…. 🙂

  • Tsunetomo

    This might amuse you. The actor Michael Sheen (Frost/Nixon) wrote a political article for the left-leaning British magazine The New Statesman a couple of days ago. I won’t bore you with the details, but at one stage he compares the current Prime Minister, David Cameron, with John Travolta’s character in Grease. He concludes the passage: ‘…Now, comparing Cameron and the Tory party with John Travolta has its limits. We’re talking about a man who is embroiled in an organisation seen by many as malevolent, who is in thrall to an ideology espoused by a self-serving, dictatorial maniac responsible for years of suffering and abuse. Just to be clear, that’s John Travolta and Scientology I’m talking about…’ Which once again underlines the extent to which Miscavige and Scientology have become, a global joke. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/michael-sheen-tyranny-mere-wealth-destroying-our-democracy

  • Robert Hammond

    Seeing the correlations between Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard is a stark reminder of the paranoid cult-leader mentality.

    Many of you have probably already seen this in previous posts, but it seemed like a good place to repost the video, “How to Start a Cult.” (refresh) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBK5aKOr2Fw

  • SarahDB

    Read Seductive Poison by Deborah Layton who was a young follower of Jones and helped hide money for him internationally and try to fool various government officials, eerily reminiscent of Hubbard’s dealings while on the Apollo (and elsewhere). It makes pretty disturbing reading, especially how she had to plot and lie to escape from Guyana (sound familiar?) and her difficulty in recovering afterwards.

    He also messed with her sexually…ugh.

    • ReallyMGM

      Excellent book! Required reading in many mass com theory of persuasion classes. “Raven” by Tim Reiterman is excellent (and HUGE) biography by airport survivor. He was part of the press corp.

  • beauty for ashes

    Holy shit this is creepy. I don’t have the stomach to listen to Jim Jones talk about Paulette Cooper today. Even if Paulette isn’t bothered by it. I don’t think there are enough kittens to counteract listening to pure evil. Maybe later. Ugg seriously need some gingerale.

    • Observer

      I haven’t been able to bring myself to listen to it yet. I may never.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I’m with you. I’m on a toxicity/stress diet and overloaded my limit with first coffee.

      • ReallyMGM

        I’m going to read the transcript. Once you have heard him, you can’t get it out of your head for a while.

        • Observer

          I heard the recording of him ranting away as people were being forced to drink the poison. I’m not sure I can stomach any more.

          • ReallyMGM

            The background sounds of children and babies screaming stays with you the rest of your life. At least it has mine. That is why I warned earlier anyone with PTSD to read the transcript. Don’t want to trigger anything.

      • Suzanna Nielsen

        Me neither. I listened to the first little bit and he reminded me so much of Hubbtard hiself…I had to shut er down.

    • Judith Sylvester

      I can’t listen either for the same reason. But if it’s creepy for us, think what it must be like for Paulette Cooper to hear herself being talked about by a mass murderer.

  • SP Wogsy

    There really are no words that describe how disgusted I feel after listening to this recording. Along with other commenters here, I got really weird chills running down my spine. Eeek!

    I do want to mention that I actually had the privilege of meeting Jim Jones Jr. when I took a Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion class while working on my A.S. degree back in 2002. He is a kind, respectful, and articulate gentleman, and we got to hear his experience about growing up with his father, Jones Sr, as well as the events that led up to the mass suicide. Very interesting but sad story. As much as I hate the COS, the last thing I would want is people that I knew dropping their bodies as a result of an order issued by DM. I really do hope that they wake up.

    Anyways, here is a pic of my baby Maverick and Miss Lovely.

    • aegerprimo

      Cute new avatar Wogsy, and Maverick is ADORABLE!

      • SP Wogsy

        Thanks! He is extremely camera shy. I think that is partly my fault, because back in 2006, I did a modeling shoot for a student photographer with him as my accessory. Anyways, it was a REALLY long shoot, and he has hated cameras ever since and will walk away when he sees one.

    • ReallyMGM

      Cutie! (I like dogs and kittehs)

    • Jo

      The church that prey’s together, stay’s together, creepy quote. Cute puppy.

      • SP Wogsy

        *Shivers*

        Thanks! He’s almost 9 years old. : )

        • Jo

          He look’s young, never would have guessed 9.

        • ReallyMGM

          He’s just getting started! {{hugs to him}}

          • SP Wogsy

            I sure do hope so. Time goes by FAST!

            The first week we got him, my family went on vacation, and I stayed home with him, so technically, I raised him – at least that is what I tell everyone. : )

  • Cosmo Pidgeon

    I don’t think Scientology is in any danger of a mass suicide for a few important reasons. It has no belief of heaven. No heavenly father who will take care of them with an eternity of bliss when they die. The keep coming back. Also many Scientologists just like themselves a lot and or have a feeling of importance or being special and as a group they are dedicated to the cause. Nothing Hubbard wrote was ever about giving up. Also he didn’t predict anything about catching a bypassing comet as in the Heavens Gate mass suicide.

  • Mockingbird

    Hey Bunkeroos , quick question – who via there own acts and the legacy they left inflicted more harm Ron Hubbard with his Scientology cult ( and the damage he inspires even after death ) or Jim Jones and his cult ?

    I am curious what people think , and what ideas they see as supporting their claims .Let’s play Most Evil .Go.

    • Jo

      The parents, they carried on the faith, nonsense, and so on.

    • Judith Sylvester

      They are 2 different forms of evil. It doesn’t make sense to compare them in this way, because the inevitable conclusion would be that one is less than the other. It is very wrong to call any incarnation of evil “less than” when it is still evil.

      • Mockingbird

        Good start .Ambiguity is a bad way to start .I consider evil in point of fact effect . Intended harmful effect .Not I drove a car and the brakes failed effect . More like when a person decides to run over someone on purpose and say back over them to finish the job.

        If I were to say steal a cookie from Suzie then on another day steal a cookie from Suzie and steal one from Joey also you could say on the second day I did twice as much cookie stealing evil.

        I feel Hubbard and Jones can be compared in a similar manner .Now there is the excellent point that Hubbard’s cult continues to do more evil every day .To make it easy you can choose to factor that in and even forecast how much more it is likely to do or just count what the Scientology cult has done so far .Whichever you prefer ..

        Some philosophies see all evil as equal .Well if a guy gives you an unfriendly look to antagonize you that can be called evil – even slightly . He can also plan and lead a campaign of the genocide of tens of millions of innocent people – as several countries and individuals have several times in history .To me a comparison that shows the genocide as phenomenally , unthinkably far , far more evil is instinctual .There is no prolonged consideration.

        Some things are far , far more evil than others in my opinion. Hubbard and Jones to my understanding are comparable . I may be…unusual in holding this opinion.

    • ReallyMGM

      Both are/were evil. I don’t know it there is a real point in putting them on a “Best of” list. What I will say is we don’t know the end story of Scientology yet, while we do know the end result of Jones’. Not only was there carnage in Guyana, but survivors of Peoples Temple still suffer terribly to this day.

    • Suzanna Nielsen

      Mockingbird……..I don’t think you meant this…
      But when you posted this question…………My immediate reaction was “Bill Yaude” or “Turtlez” or whatever ‘change the subject to esoteric BS troll of the week’ he went by.

      • Mockingbird

        Huh ?

        • Missionary Kid

          Tory can explain it better, but IIRC, Bill Yaude is on the ‘net often creating sock puppets to cause chaos. He often poses as a critic to gain information, or to befriend someone so he can pump them for information. He often starts out by asking O.T. questions to get people to talk about that instead of being on topic.

          Her advice is, in effect, don’t trust anyone unless you’ve met them in person. When she was in, while she wasn’t OSA, she set up sock puppet accounts for Bill, not knowing anything about the internet. Since then, she’s seen him cause fights among critics on the net by posing as another critic, or by asking vague questions.

          Often, much more experienced people than I have spotted him here. When he gets outed, he disappears, then comes back as another sock puppet later.

          • Mockingbird

            OH , yeah Tory warned me about him .I thought with the Jim Jones story a comparison with Hubbard was appropriate .Especially since they both were cult leaders.

    • SP Wogsy

      Eeeer…weird question, but I read your story on ESMB, and I highly suggest you write a book – very compelling story MB.

      • Mockingbird

        Thanks so much .I have written over a thousand online posts critical of Scientology already .A book is possible but I like the immediate feedback online blogging gives .

        • SP Wogsy

          I understand. I would love to read a memoir. You story is a tragedy and love story at the same time.

          Oprah once featured a memoir on her how called “A million little pieces” by James Frey. A lot of it was fake, but I heard it was an amazing read. I will check it out, but you may want to read it as well. I hear it is super emotional read and that is the vibe I got from your story which is a story for the heart. Think about it. Seriously.

          • Mockingbird

            Thanks , my wife actually told me about the scandal with James Frey and I have a lot of notes on my childhood and teenage years for a memoir for my family already . I had planned to write it up as a cautionary tale for them if nothing else . So , it would probably be easy to whip up something for my blog if I just get around to writing it all up .
            I like how you see it as a tragedy and love story as I see Scientology as sci-fi horror akin to 1984 ( but real unlike 1984). My life story really would have me as a villain or anti villian and my wife as a hero trying to save me . Without her I would likely never escape Scientology and be enjoying Miscavige’s hospitality in the RPF now.

            Part of my reluctance to share more than what is in A Million Years in Hell is that I had a childhood of extreme abuse and poverty before Scientology and did not want my story to come across as so fantastic that people would dismiss it as bullshit without even finishing it .

            Unfortunately I have found that sometimes people can have false assumptions about poverty , abuse and conditions in America and have closed minds about things they have never experienced despite being informed by people who have direct evidence that counters their opinions . Even when those opinions are based on third and fourth hand sources .

            Additionally I found in studying cults and examining my past that my family has had at least four generations that have been strongly negatively impacted by cults and that is both hard to convey and harder for many people to understand the full concentrated generational impact of .

            • SP Wogsy

              I understand. It can go either way. In any case, you have something to say, and I am sure your story would be an inspiration to others. Also, you seem extremely articulate, and have a great use of the english language. Either way, good luck whatever you decide MB!

            • Mockingbird

              Thank you .I appreciate your encouragement and support.

  • flyonthewall

    Can I ask your guys help with this blog? Don’t worry, just a real simple question. Can you tell there is other content besides the homepage? I ask because I’m looking at stats (totally not compulsively) and am noticing that the majority are going to the homepage and not elsewhere. I hope it’s a layout issue rather than poor content/bad first impression. The first night up it was a bit wonky and I can see how people would think it was broken or something so hopefully that has been remedied. Thanks for your help!

    https://thebrickcult.wordpress.com/

    • ReallyMGM

      I noticed the other night I had to search for the spot to find the other pages on the home page, but it was there. BTW, NEAT!!!!

      • flyonthewall

        yeah last night it was bad, I’m sorry about that. Hope I didn’t do too much damage to potential repeat visitors. I think it’s better now though. Thnx for the encouragement!

    • Sookie Sookie

      I saw the links at the bottom last night, but can’t like without signing into wordpress, and it’s been so long I forget my password. 🙁

      *virtual like!*

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      I was able to find it fly. Thanks for putting all your creations in one place. 🙂

    • SP Wogsy

      It took about 30 secs to search for it but no biggie. Absolutely hilarious Fly!!!! I love it!

      • flyonthewall

        mmm, that’s helpful thnx! I’ll just have to keep tinkering with it I guess

        • SP Wogsy

          Can I suggest maybe linking the old posts on the side or on the top if it doesn’t mess with the format too much?

          • flyonthewall

            I’d love to, I think maybe trying out a new template may fix that. This is my first foray into the blogoshpere so there’s a steep learning curve

      • flyonthewall
        • SP Wogsy

          Nice! Can you move it to the right a little bit more?

          • flyonthewall

            seriously!? gtfoh, lol

            • SP Wogsy

              hahahaha !

    • Robert Hammond

      When I first saw it, I only looked at the homepage. The bars to links for other pages were not obvious. But after looking and clicking, I was amazed to find so many more wonderful creations.

      • flyonthewall

        perfect, thnx!

      • flyonthewall
        • Robert Hammond

          Excellent! Much easier to navigate. Thanks.

          • flyonthewall

            thank U Robert!

      • lynn

        same here..found my way to other pages. Very Creative and liked the different forms of info all combining in a cohesive message.

    • SarahDB

      Love the Empress! The home page had a very slick look, and with a little hunting I figured it out. I agree with Robert.

      • flyonthewall

        just changed the format, what do you think now?

        https://thebrickcult.wordpress.com/

        • SarahDB

          Awesome Fly, really easy to navigate…loved the gang bang sec check too!

    • L. C. Spencer

      I went to it when you first posted it and couldn’t find anything to click on. I just assumed it was a work in progress and you’d be posting again when it was done 🙂

      • flyonthewall

        How about now? I just changed the format and I think it’s much easier to find the other posts now

        https://thebrickcult.wordpress.com/

        • L. C. Spencer

          COOOOOOL.

          • flyonthewall

            nice!

            • L. C. Spencer

              Yeah, this is going to be a neat little timesink, I can tell 🙂

              Thanks for collecting it all here, and I love the Empress!

            • flyonthewall

              yeah, I haven’t even posted sex magick and the mega Apollo series yet 🙂

            • L. C. Spencer

              Oh man, this site will be amazing! Thank Xenu somebody realized that Scientology deserved its own Lego History 🙂

        • ReallyMGM

          Like! Much easier to navigate.

          • flyonthewall

            thank u so much mgm, that feedback is a huge help!

            • ReallyMGM

              I am impressed with the Lego art. I like the idea of alternative arts bring awareness to important social issues. It reaches people who might not ever be exposed to the issue. Good going!

    • Sergeant Pepper

      Definitely improved, and you’ve got some thought provoking content. I was intrigued by this: “In fact, his notion of physics is circa 1938,Adventure Magazine. Indeed, readers of his science fiction tales complained to Astounding Science-Fiction about his implausible ideas.”. Those complaints sound interesting, have you linked those?

  • ReallyMGM

    I want to throw something out for discussion/opinion; the usage of the “c” word (cult) vs “new religious movement,” or something else. I know our proprietor has said he tried not to use it but I don’t know why. I go back and forth. What are your thoughts?

    • Judith Sylvester

      It’s a cult. Nothing to get complicated about. It doesn’t matter whether you call the major world religions cults or not. What matters is what you call Scientology. And that’s simple. It’s a cult.

    • Robert Hammond

      There are several definitions for cult. Some are benign and harmless like people who are obsessed sports fans or gamers or groups that don’t deceive people and cause harm.

      The issue here is about destructive or “totalistic” cults that manipulate people with hidden agendas and cause damage. Scientology is “clearly” in the destructive, totalistic cult camp.

      I posted this video that addresses this issue just about the time you put up the question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT3pCV9MkjU

      • ReallyMGM

        Thx. I have it bookmarked to read later. I think the “destructive” and “totaliastic” are good things to look for. Chris Shelton, Steve Hassan have a short list of characteristics of a cult as apposed to just a new denomination of an existing world religion.

    • romanesco

      To paraphrase Tony O., the word “cult” just brings up controversies about how or whether the term should be used, which is beside the point. It’s what they do that’s important.

      On this forum people don’t usually get into discussions about the use of the term, but if you’re concerned about readers who don’t post taking offense at the word, don’t use it.

      • ReallyMGM

        I’m not offended at all by its usage. Our proprietor, as usual, says it well.

    • Suzanna Nielsen

      I love the “C” word.

      A cult is a Cult is a fucking CULT.

      And I also believe that Scientology does meet the “definition” of a religion.
      It is a belief system and the Scientologists are true believers. The “fact” that they believe in batshit crazy Hubbardian mythology is of no consequence.
      They believe….and I guess that “meets the test”.

      That doesn’t make the bull shit they believe facts!
      Hubbard didn’t know what a “fact” was.
      But he was extraordinary with propagating bull shit.

      As someone who comments on the blog…(as opposed to a journalist). I think CULT is quite appropriate for this nasty (and continual) scam.

      • Ah, the C words. The real problem isn’t whether they’re a Church or a Cult, it’s that they’re Criminals who imprison, entrap, and bleed people’s bank accounts dry.

      • aegerprimo

        Bury, I would love to have a discussion with you in person about this someday. As an ex-member of a dangerous insidious cult (Scientology) – I personally feel all “religions” are cults. At a minimum a “religion” restricts a person’s thought pattern. Maybe because I was totally duped and am still recovering from being a member of a cult, I have no spiritual belief system. NOTHING makes sense to me, and I have no desire to search and even if I did I would not know where to start. Then there is the thing that confuses me in my personal everyday life…. doctors, nurses and other people trained in science, who see illness and death daily, who believe in a benevolent guy in the sky called God.

        • ReallyMGM

          I don’t know it from a cult perspective, but I do understand trauma. No matter how hard I push it down, it invariably comes back, usually without warning. I’ve been there, trying to understand how God allows such evil to exist or devastating events to happen.

    • Mark

      I’d guess Tony uses “church” because that’s what Scientology calls itself, thus neatly skirting round “cult” which has an exact technical meaning in theology and ecclesiology (Catholic cults of saints, &c.); it also avoids the pejorative overtones the word has acquired. “New Religious Movement” or “NRM” for short, is an ungainly coinage of the largely discredited academic researcher J Gordon Melton, used in ‘religious studies’, an uneasy mixture of history, sociology and anthropology that all too frequently descends into bias and pseudo-academic claptrap (at least in the hands of J Gordon Melton and his merry crew).

      • ReallyMGM

        Thanks for that background. I had seen that term used in academic circles (sociology) you described but was not aware of the origin. Interesting, in the mass com field “cult” was used.

        • Mark

          Various disciplines do seem to be using different terms for the same thing, which is confusing. If Melton and CESNUR-type religious studies didn’t have such a lacklustre reputation outside their small ivory tower, “NRM” might have become more popular than it is. Melton seems to have picked the term up from Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement#Terminology

          • ReallyMGM

            Well, when writing a 5 star review of TUML I used NRM. Not to describe Scientology but as a way to refer to the religions that popped up in the post war years. (“In the post -war years many new religious movements appeared…). In the next graph and when I referred to CoS it was referred to as a cult. But evidentally someone saw the NRM word and couldn’t get any further, even though it was not used to describe CoS. He was not a happy camper.

            • Mark

              Dratted J Gordon Melton! 😉

      • ReallyMGM

        I bought one of Rebecca Moore’s books about Peoples Temple. I don’t know how to describe it other than to say she blamed everyone on the planet for what happened except Jim Jones and his inner circle. The further I got in the book, the angrier I got. Then I watched her talk at the Griot Institute last year. She actually blamed Leo Ryan for bringing it all on. I understand Les Kingsolving’s disdained now.

    • ReallyMGM

      I really didn’t mean anything bad by question. I was curious about the opinions here. I know there are so many thoughtful people on this forum who are both survivors of CoS and never ins who have read about cults(!) extensively.

    • TonyOrtega

      You all know that I rarely use that word because I don’t want to engender endless pointless debate about what is and what isn’t a cult. (Someone invariably claims that the Catholic church, for example, is a cult, making the word meaningless. A classic OSA move.) But when your nonsense kills 900 people? Yeah, Jim Jones was a cult leader, and I’m happy to saddle him with that label.

      • ReallyMGM

        Thank you Tony. I certainly wasn’t trying to start that sort of mess. I have seen it before and it gets nasty and it has no end.

      • Robert Hammond

        Agreed. That’s why I think adding the descriptive modifier “destructive” or “totalistic” differentiates a groups like Branch Davidians, Scientology, People’s Temple, etc. from other groups that people can easily walk away from without fear of retribution.

        I thought Jon Atack did a good job in the above video in differentiating certain destructive practices from the generalized labeling of all new religious movements. But, as you rightly say, the discussion can be endless, so I won’t belabor it.

        Thanks for your insights and integrity on this issue.

      • Mockingbird

        Oh , the controversy ! Has the Scientology cult killed more than 900 people with the medical fraud carried out for sixty five or so years . Under Hubbard from May 9th 1950 on DMSMH , then later Scientology in name he promised fake cures for an ever growing number and variety of conditions .He knew it was a fraud as he took string measures and went to great lengths to hide the fraud , bad results and absolute lack of both genuine good results and scientific validation .He knew he was killing people.

      • Judith Sylvester

        Tony Ortega is a public figure in this matter, and gets interviewed. Unless the topic of cult/not cult is stopped in its tracks, it will take over every public discussion, causing it to go nowhere, and deflect attention from the real issue, which is deceptively good but actually bad behavior. But I’m not in that position: so it’s a cult.

    • Jimmy3

      I started a cult when I was 9 years young. My first two recruits were, generously, named to the Tribunal of High Priests, alongside myself. Rookie mistake. Shortly thereafter, I learned of their belief that our venture should be more a lemonade stand and less a cult. This was probably because we started out selling lemonade on a table outside a community swimming pool. I felt it was it the perfect atmosphere in which to recruit for our culty army. But they felt like we could just use the money on the vending machine and go swimming. Short-sighted fools.

      When I learned of this betrayal, I called them both the ‘C’ word, told them to get ‘F’ed, and, not unexpectedly, my cult never recovered from losing roughly 66% of its members.

      So.. we were still ‘friends’ in the following weeks, but I never spoke to them again. I just nodded and winked, intending to scare them into regained loyalty. I think they interpreted this as me hitting on them. I don’t know, they never spoke to me again.

      And that is how I saved the planet from an alien spacecraft attack.

      • ReallyMGM

        Love it! Thx for the laugh!

        I showed dogs for years. My best friend and said we belonged to the “Cult of Jack Onofrio,” the show superintendent we sent all our money to. All we got back were dozens of 10 cent ribbons and certificates occasionally.

      • AintMizBahavin

        always a good lmao from you

    • Supper Powers

      The Cult. Live.

    • Dave In Ajax

      it is run like the mafia, and no one calls that a cult, miscavage being the don
      its always been a vile criminal organization to me

    • daytoncapri

      “cult” is a pejorative.

      Pejoratives can be psychologically useful on a personal level for venting and self-identification (e.g., “I’m not or no longer a member of THAT CULT!!!”)

      In my experience, pejoratives are not especially helpful when it comes to attempting to educate or inform; they can backfire in attempts to persuade.

      That being said, sometimes I’ll still state that I had been a member of that dangerous cult. (Their eyes meet mine warily, watching for them to spin.)

      Just my $0.02

      • noseinabk

        Very good example. When posting a reply to people like elle , Louanne Marco, osa bots, I use the word cult simply because I have zero respect for them and their lies. If I am corresponding with a member who is new or is having a reasoned debate, I would never use the word cult or religion and choose to call it an organization.

    • PickAnotherID

      I try to avoid the “c” word, and be specific like “$cientology”. Then again, I don’t really like “New Religious Movement” either. Too many apologist use NRM to deflect legitimate criticism of bad behaviour by some groups, just because they are new.

    • ReallyMGM

      Just a note: Thanks for the responses to my honest question. I appreciate the answers; they helped reaffirm my understanding how and when the name of Scientology or any cult should be used. It didn’t turn into a “all religions suck” or “because I say so.” Good group, y’all!

  • Robert Hammond

    Here is an interesting BBC show about religions and cults, featuring Jon Atack is one of the guests. Participants also include leaders of the Raelian cult, Unification Church (Moonies) and a member of the Branch Davidians (Waco) who still believes that David Koresh was the ultimate prophet). Fascinating discussion. (refresh for video). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT3pCV9MkjU

    • George Layton

      When I read the title of the video I thought that it was talking about the evolution of the religion, that it was time for the all religions to evolve.

      • Robert Hammond

        The Big Questions is an interesting show and I’ve never seen it until now. I think the video that follows this one on cults and religion is called “Is It Time for Religions to Accept Evolution?” I haven’t seen that one yet, but I might check it out.

        • daytoncapri

          THAT was the video “Is It Time for Religions to Accept Evolution?” which showed on my screen, hence my confused questions to you.

          • Robert Hammond

            Hmmm… strange. Here it is again. (refresh) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spe9JbmDOms

            • daytoncapri

              This is a different video. Enjoyed the other one, will watch this later.

            • Robert Hammond

              Fixed it. Somehow the wrong video uploaded. Thanks. The one I meant to post is called, “Is there a difference between a religion and a cult? Refresh to see the corrected link.

            • Robert Hammond

              I ended up watching both of these videos, The religion vs cult and evolution vs religion. Both very enlightening. That Waco guy was totally wacko though. But no worse than certain other cult members.

            • Frodis73

              I added the evolution one to my watch later list. That looks likes an interesting show…tackling subjects nobody wants to talk about here in the US at least. I’m going to check out some of the other ones too.
              Anyway, glad you shared it! Long way around to say thanks eh? 😀

            • ReallyMGM

              Thx. I had the second link too.

            • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

              Seen before but good to listen again, on now. Thanks Robert.

            • ReallyMGM

              Interesting. I recently read a book by the girl who wrote the book about growing up in the Children of God. Definately a destructive cult; horrific abuse of children.

            • Frodis73

              Interesting. That guy defending Waco/Koresh was driving me nuts tho….I wanted to give him a sla…stern talking to.

            • ReallyMGM

              He didn’t do much good making Branch Davidians look unbrainwashed (is that a word?)

            • Robert Hammond

              Unbrainwashed is now officially a word. You could also substitute the word rational or sane.

            • ReallyMGM

              LOL I’m going to blame it on being tired and mount a movement to put “unbrainwashed” in the dictionary

            • Robert Hammond

              That Waco guy was really wacko. So sure he had THE TRUTH as he waits for Koresh to come back and judge the world. Sounds familiar, sadly.

          • Robert Hammond

            Just corrected the link. Refresh for the one about religions and cults. Sorry for the mixup.

    • daytoncapri

      Very interesting discussion, sometimes it is better to not look at who is speaking in order to hear the opposing sides, and not get caught up in one side vs the other. Ok, I give up, I like the talkative bald guy on the left side with the north american accent. The CofE guy too. Interesting to watch 2 Muslims politely disagree, then gets messy as they talk louder and at the same time. Jon Atack, Raelian cult, Unification Church (Moonies) or a member of the Branch Davidians- I didn’t recognize them, where were they in this video? Glad to see that the Great Spaghetti Monster got a mention.

      • Robert Hammond

        I missed the Great Spaghetti Monster bit. I was somewhat saddened to hear the Branch Davidian guy (black guy with dreadlocks) sounding so adamant about David Koresh being the true prophet and all of his teachings were “TRUTH.” I think this guy was expecting David Koresh to return out of the sky like L Ron Hubbard to judge the world. Scary.

        All of these cults seem to claim an exclusive license on “truth” through some special revelation that nobody but their particular founder was privy to.

        • daytoncapri

          See my comment below. What is the title of the video that you posted? I feel sure that I saw something else. I saw no black guy with dreadlocks nor talk of Koresh,

        • ReallyMGM

          I have never heard of the Raelian cult, but have read the book by the young woman on the program who was a member of the Children of God. She is one brave young lady and a hero.

          • Robert Hammond
            • ReallyMGM

              Odd. Very Heavens Gate-like. In fact, the guy they interviewed had the same sort of affect those people had in their taped interviews. They were happy, but something just not right. Unlike Scientology, i get that you know their space theology from the beginning.

            • Robert Hammond

              Yeah. I get that they are much more open about their beliefs than Scientology and less hostile to critics and former members. The main similarity is the space opera UFO beliefs, kind of like Erik von Danakin with his Chariots of the Gods nonsense.

              There are many other UFO cults like this out there who claim to have special alien contacts, including the “rev” Jim Humble with his butt bleaching autism cures called Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS).

            • ReallyMGM

              Why can’t we just have an old-fashioned voodoo group?

            • Frodis73

              Lol, when I was a kid I was all about that Chariots of the Gods book. Hey, I was way into sci fi, loved aliens and loved to read. I used to “pray” for aliens to come visit us. I was a kid…easy to believe that stuff when you are young.

    • ReallyMGM

      Thank you for the link! This is a very good program with reasonably controlled back and forth. Jon A gave a spot-on list of characteristics of a cult. ****

  • Sibs

    I-don’t-have-HBO-and-I-only-just-saw-this-well-placed-$cientology-joke-holy-shit-Jon-Oliver-rocks-sorry-if-several-people-have-already-posted-this!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6ar3xJL_Q

    • SarahDB

      I love John Oliver! He’s funny but he also does his homework and makes really good arguments. Love the Co$ joke!

    • Frodis73

      I so wish he’d do his own 15-20 minute take down of the church. It would be epic!

      • Mockingbird

        A dream come true .A Neurotology level J&D event .Oooooooooooooowie Oooooooooooooowie we believe ! Oooooooooooooowie Oooooooooooooowie we believe !

    • L. C. Spencer

      And that joke got the biggest laugh of the night! People love it now when Co$ gets burned!

    • Mockingbird

      Hee hee .John Oliver crushes scumbags .I’m loving it. FIFA has a terrible reputation for corruption and exploiting poor workers in slavery like working conditions. They are renowned for greed and inhuman evil. Reminds me of a group I was in for twenty five years…

    • PoisonIvyHerself

      Mr. Ivy had a little “brush with greatness” with him in favorite our local UWS deli today! He was across the restaurant from him but saw that he was quite earthy and jolly with the waiters.
      Utopia, best funky deli on the UWS. We have a favorite waiter who, when Mr. Ivy shows up alone, always says with genuine concern, “Hozzz ze viiife?”

  • nottrue
  • anoni81b4u

    Jones & Hubbard

  • aegerprimo

    I posted this last night, but in case you missed it, the list of Co$ bad press for May is at the chat forums.

    Choose your favorite ex-scientology discussion forum to browse the list for May. This includes, written, radio and TV press.

    —————————————-

    Co$ Bad Press 2015 threads…

    ESMB (Ex-Scientologist Message Board)
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?38261-Co-Bad-Press-Collection-2015&p=1039447&viewfull=1#post1039447

    WWP (Why We Protest)
    https://whyweprotest.net/threads/co-bad-press-collection-2015.123076/page-2#post-2537663

    OCMB (Operation Clambake Message Board)
    http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?p=725103#p725103

    RFTTP (Reaching For The Tipping Point)
    WEBSITE CURRENTLY DOWN – http://tonyortega.org/2015/05/31/what-happened-when-an-actual-scientist-of-the-mind-checked-out-l-ron-hubbard-in-1950/#comment-2055440398

    ESK (Ex Scientology Kids)
    http://www.exscientologykids.com/eskforums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11477&p=35048#p35048

    • Skabetti

      You are awesome.

  • MaxSpaceman

    Chico the Cat loves his copy.

    • aegerprimo

      D’aw!!! Intense fringes of the iNterwebz Kitty is Intense!

      I featured him for the cover pic of Miss Lovely pics with pets album at my Flickr account – https://www.flickr.com/photos/132611082@N08/sets/with/72157653341781981

      ETA: Shanester has been doing a better job than me at collecting and organizing all the Miss Lovely at his Imgur account – selfies, pics at landmarks ’round the world, and with our favorite fuzzy friends –
      http://shannester.imgur.com/

    • ReallyMGM

      Cute kitteh!

    • Juicer77

      Oh, Max, Chico has the same white nose stripe as my dearly departed Romeo. Give that sweet kitteh some extra luv from me.

    • Frodis73

      Chico is quite the handsome kitty. I love his nose spots.

    • SP Wogsy

      Can I keep?

    • Enturbulated Masterbator

      Chico Suave!

    • Ella Raitch

      That could be my kitty Lola

  • Redx Doc
    • SP Wogsy

      Thanks for the help!

      If anyone else is interested in posting redx reminders please let me know. So far we have two bunkeroos using this handle. The more the merrier! : )

      Rock on Redx Brigade!

  • mook

    TC to be in Colombia for Bogota Ideal Morgue opening, says Colombian TV.
    https://whyweprotest.net/threads/tom-cruise-in-bogota-on-july-4-2015-for-church-of-scientology-opening.127376/

    More bad publicity coming his way….

    • ReallyMGM

      Columbia should be relatively out of the eyes and ears of most mainstream media.

  • Frodis73

    Shout out to E-girl for kicking ass in the comments section regarding the Trout Run Narconon thing. The sci’s are out in force (well, a weak force) trying to sway hearts and minds that they only want to help people turn their lives around. GAG.

    • Eclipse-girl

      They wont let me edit my posts.
      I know my typing is bad.
      I was fighting a lagging computer.

      I tried.

      • noseinabk

        You are doing just fine.

      • Frodis73

        Hey-you’re doing great and fighting the good fight.

    • noseinabk

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-media-war-over-scientology-ahead-of-a-key-political-vote-near-camp-david/2015/05/31/16e355b0-03d9-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html

      I am not a Scientologist but..you are all religious bigots or are just against helping people. WTF kind of rebuttal is that?
      If scientology is so fantastic why wont these people admit they are members?

      • Frodis73

        Great questions. Also, if the BS really worked people would be beating down their doors to get into Narconon; the NIH, WHO, AMA, APA, etc would also all be working hand in hand to implement their great program. Drug addiction is such a problem, Narconon would be a household word if it worked…sorta like AA. Everybody has at least heard of AA and their success rates are abysmall also! All that stuff should be clue #1. Clue #2 is why do you have to hide your religion? I know lots of religious people and they have NO problem saying ‘yes, I am a *fill in the blank**’. I have to hope at night when they really think about it, that has to bother them on some level. {file that in my futile hope drawer}

        • noseinabk

          ” I have to hope at night when they really think about it, that has to bother them on some level.”

          What fascinates me is the total lack of moral compass that these people emulate not only without guilt but with pride.

          • Frodis73

            Yes!! Like that crazy guy selling stuff on Ebay and he threatened the customer with a letter saying “look up some of our past actions–don’t fuck with me”. I totally paraphrased that one, but he was getting off on threatening this guy with his sci work force that would do anything for him. See, some of these folks know exactly what they are involved in and LOVE it.

        • Mark Foster

          Spot on, Frodmeister. When I was in, it DID bother me, always; sometimes more, sometimes less. Hiding and lying are essential behaviors for a ¨good¨ scientologist.

          • Frodis73

            Mark, that gives me hope then. If you were wondering it, then others are too. At least the ones with a heart that is. Stuff like that has to eat away at your heart and mind if you are a decent person. So glad you are out here with us!

      • noseinabk
        • Frodis73

          Yeah, that really pisses me off! Bastards!! Surprised they were able to figure out how to do that using their telex machines and all. lol

  • Narapoid

    I listened to this morning and thought: damn, he sounds like Hubbard.

    • SP Wogsy

      Exactly my thoughts as well… creepy.

  • HelluvaHoax!

    Gratitude to you PCN for braving an unthinkably difficult path towards exposing the sociopathy of Hubbard and his criminal cult.

    Brilliant work by Tony on the book. That is a treasure.

    I have commented at times on ESMB about the extraordinary cinematic elements surrounding your harrowing odyssey–it transcends Scientology.

    And this tape! Even Deus ex Machina could not provide a better cinematic device for an OPENING SEQUENCE of the feature film. The Jonestown massacre…chaotic shots of the evil that the Rev Jim Jones visited upon the world. Then we hear Jones voice begin to speak (the audio tape). References to Hubbard and Scientology while a vintage style montage of shots of Hubbard intercut with Paulette Cooper and the world of Scientology circa 1970. We witness all this as Jone’s voice drones on about unthinkably paranoid conspiracies. In a couple minutes we begin to estimate the sheer depths of insanity and evil that will frame the story ahead. . .

    Then, CUT TO the brightly colored world of Madison Avenue as Paulette’s story picks up in real time. . .

    As I have mentioned often, THIS is the greatest untold story of Scientology and perhaps the most compelling vehicle that ever existed (the Motion Picture adaptation) to alert the world to the COS (Crimewave of Scientology).

    • That’s one paragraph of script to go – keep at it 😉

      And a close second best story, IMHO, is the story of how the medical examiner changed her mind in the Lisa McPherson case. The problem here is that we do not have the access to the internal documents of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology.

      Oh, and the story of the hole, centered around the video tape of the musical chairs episode.

      • Frodis73

        Scientology would make a great series that could rival GoT in the right hands. Start out with LRH in the 50’s and take it all the way to present day following various characters…spread out over 7 years. It could work. Tons of drama, sex and violence that’s for sure.

    • Robert Hammond

      Nice cinematic take. I know that Paulette has suggested Nichole Kidman in the title role.

      • Tony Ortega

        I think that got the biggest laugh at our Hollywood appearance!

        • Tory Christman

          Award for Nichole Kidman when she plays Miss Lovely 🙂

    • Frodis73

      That is a really great opening to the movie we all hope gets made.

    • I was just thinking about you another day. Always good to hear from you, HH!

    • Mockingbird

      Hey, I thought you never left your barrel of Hubbard books at ESMB ! I had no idea you visit the Bunker too!

  • Frodis73

    I am pretty sure this was posted before, but maybe not. The anti psych/big pharma/sci crowd is out in force trying to add their comments to an older story.
    http://listverse.com/2015/05/01/10-bizarre-claims-from-scientologys-war-on-psychiatry/#comment-2048704494

    • ReallyMGM

      Love that PTSD doesn’t exist. If a disease is not measurable…it is just people being people.
      Scientology = medical malpractice

      • Frodis73

        Yeah, there is another one about a 14 yr old girl with bipolor disorder. Guess she went out with friends and got drunk, but the psychs killed her! WTF? Lol. Make sure comments are set to newest, it defaults to best…the last 10-15 are all pro cchr. ARGH.

      • Todd Tomorrow
        • Mockingbird

          If you want to be freaked out read a list of PTSD symptoms and the barriers to study phenomena and note how many match .Then look up the symptoms of hypnosis and note how many are barriers to study phenomena . Then read a list of stress symptoms and compare those to the phenomena.

          Oh wait , I already did and wrote a comprehensive analysis .Including a free hypothesis on Hubbard combining cognitive restructuring and hypnosis covertly in study tech .
          The old chestnut Insidious Enslavement : Study Technology
          http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/01/insidious-enslavement-study-technology.html

          • Todd Tomorrow

          • Todd Tomorrow

            I had bleeding ulcers from it at 4. Took 4 Dr’ to finally and two came up with the same diagnosis. Have to read it tomorrow! thx:)

        • Frodis73

          This is really good TT. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            you’re very welcome, glad you liked it!

        • Mymy88

          WOW! Have you seen this video re: kid in the cockpit?

          Video Name:
          Accident Video – Animation with CVR/FDR information
          http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/asi:aeroflot-flight-593:child-in-the-cockpit

          • Todd Tomorrow

            One of my favorites. In a very sad way.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            Alaska Airlines Flight 261 This was so sad these people were shaken up for along time before they crashed. I had a travel business at the time and nobody wanted to get on one.

            • Mymy88

              I watched that one again today (Alaska Flight 261). Yes! It is definitely one of the more terrifying ones. I always have shows like this playing in the back ground when I’m doing stuff. And to think it was just something that was not greased. They were flying that sucker upside down for a bit there. And then! There was a pilot who witnessed the whole thing. Damn, I bet he has nightmares about it for the rest of his life.

              I had a couple questions to ask you about the kid in the cockpit one but I was just now browsing through a forum and read something that pretty much covered it. I wanted to know if the pilots had been told about the differences between the two planes (one has alarm – other just small light comes on) and I also wondered if the pilots had even been told in the first place that the 30 second resist on the yoke would disengage a part of the auto-pilot. Also what about the recovery fuck up – like you mentioned, all they had to do was nothing and the plane would have corrected itself. On this forum I was reading it said that none of those things were told to the pilots, not that that’s an excuse because god knows it was insane doing what the pilot did, but anyway, another perfect storm as usual.

              Jesus! You have flown a lot. Wow! Even in the jump seat! How on earth did you pull that kind of thing off? Yes, I loved that movie “Catch Me if You Can”. Sorry, I didn’t know you were an ex. Did you know that Kay’s brother flies commercial airliners?

              There are so many of these shows, I certainly can’t keep them all in my head at once. I know that Alaskan one was one that always stood out just because it was something so minor (lack of grease) that caused all that horror and then everybody died.

              Another one that stands out is the Swiss 111 I think it was? The one with the fire. Shit! That was unbelievable.

              The KLM and PA collision – I told you I wanted to send you this website that has this cool animation of everything that happened. The transmissions are supposedly timed with the planes movement but they are not, as far as I could tell, so it’s not as if it is this amazing thing. I have not had time to look for it but I will.

              I am going to try to find that book also (Sky Gods). You wouldn’t have remembered the authors name, would you?

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Robert Gandt. No, I learned how to fly for free and was also upgraded to business class. I didn’t have to sit in the jump seat! It was so much fun, going all over the world. I’d be sitting next to people and they’d say”Do this while you’re young” and I’d reply,’I am” I was actually interviewed for the paper after the Alaska crash, I’m sure it would be online somewhere. I just said that business travlers didn’t care about flying on,MD-80’s as the leisure traveler. Funny it was a great plane with a great safety record. The whistle blower got fired and never got a dime.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R0CViDUBFs

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Good spot, thanks, Fro 🙂

    • Graham

      Thanks Frodis. Just been over there and made a couple of pertinent points.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        I’ll put the link on SPs, too.

  • Juan Negro

    Now that “recordings” have been mentioned… What did Richard M. Nixon think of LRH?

  • Frodis73

    Anyone else having probs accessing Rinder’s site? I haven’t been able to get on for awhile now.

    • I can see it on my phone nicely, but it’s not really loading on my computer.

    • Graham

      Working fine for me.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Sleeping Greyhound

    • Great pic, Todd!

      • Todd Tomorrow

        I see so many cat pics, I had to get one in. Thanks DoDo!

        • Baby

          Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh beautiful Todd..You are a good daddy

          • Todd Tomorrow

            Thanks Baby!

        • Mymy88

          I watched that one again today (Alaska Flight 261). Yes! It is definitely one of the more terrifying ones. I always have shows like this playing in the back ground when I’m doing stuff. And to think it was just something that was not greased. They were flying that sucker upside down for a bit there. And then! There was a pilot who witnessed the whole thing. Damn, I bet he has nightmares about it for the rest of his life.

          I had a couple questions to ask you about the kid in the cockpit one but I was just now browsing through a forum and read something that pretty much covered it. I wanted to know if the pilots had been told about the differences between the two planes (one has alarm – other just small light comes on) and I also wondered if the pilots had even been told in the first place that the 30 second resist on the yoke would disengage a part of the auto-pilot. Also what about the recovery fuck up – like you mentioned, all they had to do was nothing and the plane would have corrected itself. On this forum I was reading it said that none of those things were told to the pilots, not that that’s an excuse because god knows it was insane doing what the pilot did, but anyway, another perfect storm as usual.

          Jesus! You have flown a lot. Wow! How on earth did you pull that kind of thing off? Yes, I loved that movie “Catch Me if You Can”. Sorry, I didn’t know you were an ex. Did you know that Kay’s brother flies commercial airliners?

          There are so many of these shows, I certainly can’t keep them all in my head at once. I know that Alaskan one was one that always stood out just because it was something so minor (lack of grease) that caused all that horror and everybody dying.

          Another one that stands out is the Swiss 111 I think it was? The one with the fire. Shit! That was unbelievable.

          The KLM and PA collision – I told you I wanted to send you this website that has this cool animation of everything that happened. The transmissions are supposedly timed with the planes movement but they are not, as far as I could tell, so it’s not as if it is this amazingly accurte animation. I have not had time to look for it but I will.

          I am going to try to find that book also (Sky Gods). You wouldn’t have remembered the authors name, would you?

    • SP Wogsy

      Awwwwww….yours?

      • Todd Tomorrow

        yes, that’s lora.

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Oh, look 🙂 Is she sleeping with her nose in the pocket of a leather jacket?

    • Mymy88

      i’m sorry i’ve still not replied. there is so much going on and i have a new customer (i dog walk for neighbors) and it gets so hot here in atlanta so that plus dealing with some medical crap and other things, i get tired and whatnot where i just want to zone out in free time and watch youtube.

      i did print out those 2 posts of yours i want to reply to and in fact, i already started to reply to one but not typed yet so i might as well at least type that. i’m still pecking but thought i would be okay to type by now but nope.

      so i lost the first page but i’ll look for it later. here is what little i’ve done so far…
      about sky gods, there were numerous things that i did find interesting such as how the lessors were so reluctant to voice disagreement with their superiors and that it was something that carried over from the military as many many of them served in the military. i did not check out the link about the camel, etc., but i will. it’s a shame u lost your journal. a lot of it will come back if u try to rewrite it.

      i’ve heard madrid is awesome. u know how to vacation in style. 1st class sounds fabuloso too. how in the world did u manage to fly free so much? LOL

      okay more later (rest of reply to your other post). take care. later!

      • Todd Tomorrow

        We can talk off line; biwm30@GMAIL.COM. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU GET THIS AND I’LL DELETE THIS. BY THE WAY MISSED YAH:)

        • Mymy88

          ok, i got it, thanks, i’ll delete mine too, thanks

  • Jimmy3
    • SP Wogsy

      Nice song! Thx for sharing!

      My fav Dave Matthews song all time is still “Crash into Me” but this one is catchy.

      Their drummer is one bad ass mo’fo’.

      • Jimmy3

        I wrote the lyrics to this song, did you know?. I wrote this song myself, and I handed it to Dave himself at an Applebee’s. But it was quite a few years after he had already written and recorded it, so it doesn’t really count. That’s what the large man dragging me out of the Applebee’s said, at least.

        • SP Wogsy

          Uh huh… Yeah I was there. You were the one getting wheeled out in the strait jacket. I don’t care what they say about you J3, I know you wrote that song.

          • Baby

            OMG I was the bartender that gave Jimmy the Kotex napkin from the John!

            • SP Wogsy

              Kotex????? Hahahahaha! Now THAT is funny Baby.

            • Baby

              I couldn’t stop myself Wogsy.. ha.. It was just right in my face..

    • Noise.

  • FOTF2012

    When Jonestown happened, I was in Scientology. The very first thing that went through my mind was that this could happen in Scientology. By then I had seen the “church” perform lies, threats, thefts, and harassment.

    I do not think this could happen with public Scientologists. However, with inner circle, hard core Sea Org … who knows?

    Imagine you are certain to your core that the whole agonized future of the human race — every man, woman and child — depends on what you do here and now in Scientology? Imagine that you absolutely know and believe that Scientology is the only chance — the _only_ chance — for us to escape the supposed trap of this universe and avoid a dwindling spiral of awareness that will have us lost forever otherwise.

    Imagine you are sure those things are true. What would you do? Where would you draw the line?

    • 0tessa

      I agree. Also, the real Scientologist is more concerned with his eternal life than this lifetime. That’s why in Scientology there is a culture of ‘end cycle’, ‘dropping the body’ (at will) etc. That’s why Miscavige said about his father ‘let him die’.
      In this sense they are not that different from orthodox christians who don’t care much for this lifetime, but the more for the afterlife, where eternal bliss is awaiting them.
      Scientology belief is in fact rather primitive, in spite of some SF elements. Hubbard had to come with at least some original things in his pseudo-religion.

  • Cedilla

    For those of you still awake this popped up 30 minutes ago. Things we already know. But..

    10 Of The Strangest Stories About Scientology’s L. Ron Hubbard.

    http://listverse.com/2015/06/02/10-of-the-strangest-stories-about-scientologys-l-ron-hubbard/

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+** RED X ** +–+ RED X *** Tuesday, 02 June 2015
    Good morning Night Owls and Early Birds,
    It can’t be Christmas everyday, although I would like it to be. Yesterday’s removal was comparatively dismal with a couple from Tampa & Cincinnati and New Haven scraping in. Still NO result for the straggling
    Boston’s “2,500 years”, going up to 9 sticky ones.

    SpamTrack has been updated today 2nd of June at 2:30am est : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-120#post-2537737

    RedX tips (including how to complaint to CL) : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-120#post-2533632
    Flag co$ lies : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml
    F5… Imagination by Archann enhanced by Sookiesookie for RedX, and flickred by Aeger Primo https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/16748176442/in/set-72157642802079293

  • EnthralledObserver

    Aussie heaven… just sharing…

    • Ella Raitch

      No vegemite version yet?

      • EnthralledObserver

        It is early days… give them time. 😉

    • Jimmy3

      are there hidden mites in there
      as an American, I must know.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Nothing wriggled, and nothing salty… so no, I don’t think so.

        • Jimmy3

          These sneaky Oceanic people, I don’t know if you know any of them… But they’ll sneak the *mites into everything if you don’t pay attention to it. Vegemites. Marmites. Gigamites. Super Gigamites. It goes on and on…

          • Ella Raitch

            termites, dust mites…..

          • EnthralledObserver

            I hear you… will examine them in the light if there are any left by morning… lol

      • daytoncapri
    • I want it.

      • EnthralledObserver

        *nods* yep… is goooooood.

      • daytoncapri

        me too. How much for a plane ticket to Oz?

  • LZ

    Holy crap!!!! If anyone out there has any doubts about the ugliness that is $cientology, this recording should seal the deal! Creepy!

  • deathtoallpoliticians

    what a fucking hypocrite. jim jones is more than willing to accept unnamed sources so long as they espouse views similar to his. all other unnamed sources, of course, are not to be listened to and are nothing more than government agents spouting vicious, nazi propaganda and lies. what a hypocritical, moronic, sociopathic, paranoid loon. i bet jim jones and 4’13” would be bff…what do they say? birds of a feather flock? lmfao

  • PoisonIvyHerself

    OMG. Have been off grid and on deadline for 2 mos now but had to procrastinate when I saw/heard this. Oh, Tony, oh Paulette. What a find. So excited about your book tour and can’t wait to read it once I get done with the stuff that pays the rent etc. CONGRATS. Hello all Bunkerites, hope to come lurk some more during upcoming vacay.

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Hi PIvy, You will read one good thrilling book. Good to see you here. Life takes me off the grid a lot too.

      • PoisonIvyHerself

        Hey Dee, turning in a finished MSS tomorrow night, then have two more smaller projects and my house looks like HOARDERS which has to be dealt with, hopefully squeezing in a week at the beach with books. I told Little Ivy (who graduates college in 2 weeks!!!) that the story of my life this June will be “THE PURGE 3: THE IVY’s.” Far more scary that “THE PURGE” 1 or 2, given the state of my garage! But life is good. And its amazing to see the progress being made here.
        FIRST on my reading list is MISS LOVELY! But feel like I’ve missed so much more, as well. Love to all.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Looks like you’re having fun and with a graduation coming up yea! Your garage and house sounds a little like mine, as I prepare to move next year, so know what your looking at. Good you’re making progress and me too. Can’t wait to hear what you say about Miss Lovely.

  • Frank frivilous

    Any comment from Scientology over this apparent support statement from Jim Jones?

  • Concerns_of_a_Father

    The disturbing reality of Jonestown and Scientology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQxSuC9hqhY

  • Frank from N.

    I hear amazing similarities between the cadence of the voice of Jim Jones and LRH.

  • Bob

    Just listened to Jim Jones recording. He is the perfect person to defend the church.
    They should make one of their famous recreation videos of the recording and release it as a defense against Tony’s book.

  • Mirnaminkoff

    It should also be noted that Jim Jones was always looking for propaganda to feed to his followers. He was trying to convince all of them that return to the USA was impossible and they would be killed, lynched, arrested if they did. So having the CoS talk about “Nazi” high up in the govt. and police force was perfect fodder for Jim’s “news” which was always carefully edited to support his bizarre and scary world view. The PT member would have to listen to this stuff over the loudspeakers in the compound for hours everyday.

  • April Moonlight

    Thank you Tony Ortega for posting this amazing audio of Jim Jones. It’s chilling.