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Scientology Mythbusting with Jon Atack: And With Help From Harlan Ellison!

Jon_Atack_Blue_Sky2In 1990, author Jon Atack published what is still one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, A Piece of Blue Sky. Atack now has a new edition of the book out, and it reminded us what an encyclopedic resource he is. So we had an idea. In the world of Scientology watching, we noticed that there seem to be some legends, myths, and contested facts that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet. With Atack’s help, we’re going to tackle these issues one by one, drawing on Jon’s deep knowledge and sharp sense of humor.

This week, we have a great treat: Harlan Ellison is IN THE HOUSE. Yes, the legendary writer helped us out with our mythbusting this week, and that has thrown our entire program into disarray.

We’ll try to calm down and start at the beginning. What we wanted to discuss with Jon Atack this week was one of the most enduring parts of L. Ron Hubbard lore: Before he published Dianetics in 1950, did Hubbard really tell other people that he intended to make millions by starting a religion?

Things started when we told Jon that we had run into a 1969 article in Parents magazine which has this passage…

In spite of the widespread, responsible criticism of dianetic theory, Hubbard was not deterred from promulgating his notions. Faced in 1951 with legal difficulties, he proceeded, as his ex-associate, science-fiction writer and editor John Campbell, Jr. put it, “to get religion”β€”and the tax advantages inherent in church status. Hubbard’s decision came as no shock to Sam Mos[k]owitz, science-fiction editor and author. “Three years earlier,” he recalls, “Hubbard spoke before the Eastern Science-Fiction Association in Newark, New Jersey. I don’t recall his exact words. But, in effect, he told us that writing science-fiction for about a penny a word was no way to make a living. If you really want to make a million, he said, the quickest way is to start your own religion.”

When we brought it to his attention, the first thing Jon asked us was what the hell we were doing reading a 1969 copy of Parents magazine, but it would take too long to explain that one.

We pointed out that some version of this story comes up again and again. Russell Miller put three different versions of it into his 1987 biography of Hubbard, Bare-Faced Messiah.

But the church, responding to Lawrence Wright’s book Going Clear, argues that in fact it was George Orwell who, in 1938, made the statement about inventing a religion, and that it was erroneously attributed to Hubbard later.

We asked Jon if he had dealt with this issue in A Piece of Blue Sky, and how confident he is that Hubbard actually said some version of “the way to make a million is to start a religion.”

“In Blue Sky, I wrote that in his autobiography Over My Shoulder, publisher Lloyd Arthur Eshbach remembered taking lunch with Astounding Science-Fiction editor John W. Campbell and Ron Hubbard in 1949 (p.125). Hubbard repeated a statement he had already made to several other people. He said he would like to start a religion, because that was where the money was,” Jon said.

“And, yes, Russell reckoned we had three distinct sources, all of whom were told this directly by Hubbard,” he said, and added an aside: “I like the ‘dead-agent’ logic of Scientology that says because George Orwell also said it, Hubbard didn’t…”

We told Jon that another person who has his own version of Hubbard’s statements on religion is writer Harlan Ellison, and you can hear him talking about it with Robin Williams in a recording on YouTube. In that version, Harlan says he was visiting New York as a high schooler, and was hanging out at the Hydra Club with several science fiction writers, including Hubbard. (In 1950 Ellison would have been about 16.)

Ellison told us that same story when we were fortunate enough to visit him last year at his mindblowing Los Angeles home, Ellison Wonderland.

By Harlan’s request, the lunch we had there and what we discussed was entirely off the record. But on Thursday, we called him up and asked how he felt about us now writing about our visit and what he had said.

Harlan did even better. He told us the story all over again!

Harlan, as he appears in a great recent documentary about him, Dreams with Sharp Teeth

Harlan, as he appears in a great recent documentary about him, Dreams with Sharp Teeth

“Hubbard was a writing machine. Other people envied him that he could turn out so many stories in so many genres. I told you about the roll of butcher paper he kept behind his typewriter so he could keep writing, didn’t I?” he said, and we confirmed that he had, indeed, filled us in on that remarkable detail, that Hubbard typed on a butcher-paper roll, and he pounded away on the keys like the act of writing was an Olympic sport.

“There was a lot of schmoozing and get-togethers then,” Harlan said about the writers he got to know in that period. “Ron would invariably complain that he was getting tired. How exhausting it was to be turning out work at only a penny a word. That he was writing night and day.”

And then one night, the other writers got tired of Hubbard’s moaning.

“The night I heard it, Lester del Rey said you should start a religion. Del Rey had been a stump minister. He was one of the top five or six science fiction writers of the day. Lester also turned out to be one of the great frauds of his day — ‘Lester del Rey’ wasn’t even his name. But he was a very outgoing, garrulous guy, and he said to Ron, you ought to start a religion!

“Right around that time, Reich’s orgone box was fairly popular, and there was a lot of psychiatry talk going on. L. Sprague de Camp was there. Lee Correy — his real name was Jay Stanton. Each of them chipped in a little bit. One chipped in the Reich orgone box, which became the e-meter. Another one chipped in group therapy, which was big at the time. This was right around the time the Kinsey Report came out. Lester contributed most to the discussion, and out of it came Dianetics. Hubbard got Dianetics going. It didn’t become Scientology until he wanted to get tax exemption,” Ellison says.

When we visited Ellison’s home — and its quarter-million books — Harlan had recommended that we read Fear, which he said was a fabulous experiment in terror by Hubbard.

“Ron was always kind to me. He was very decent to me. We weren’t drinking buddies, but he was always very respectful,” Harlan told us yesterday. “When I asked him to do a story for Dangerous Visions, he was very humble and said he wasn’t good enough for something like that.”

(Dangerous Visions is a 1967 collection of short stories Ellison edited that produced four Hugo and Nebula awards and had a major effect on science fiction, gathering most of the great artists of the time.)

During our talk at Ellison Wonderland, Harlan told us he didn’t think very much of Dianetics and Scientology, but he still had much affection for the older writer who had been his friend. “That’s why I’ve never been bothered by Scientologists,” he told us Thursday. “He put out the word, leave Ellison alone.”

Well, with one exception…

Harlan repeated a delicious anecdote which he and his lovely wife Susan told us last year — the one time his Hubbard story got him physically attacked.

It was a party at Roddy McDowall’s house, he said, attended by many local luminaries. “One was a leading psychiatrist of Beverly Hills. Another was the police chief.” A film director, meanwhile, asked Harlan to tell his story about Hubbard and religion to everyone, and kept at him until he agreed to do so.

He was unaware that one of the people at the party, opera singer Julia Migenes-Johnson, was a Scientologist. Until, that is, she literally jumped on him while he was telling his story.

Julia Migenes-Johnson, from her website

Julia Migenes-Johnson, from her website

“I had no idea that they got that unstable about it. But if you’re a true believer, you’re a true believer.” Harlan and Susan both told us about the chaos that ensued.

“She really went after me. She’d have taken my head off if she’d had an axe. I was completely taken by surprise. It took two people to get her off me,” he said.

We contacted Migenes-Johnson’s agent yesterday, asking the singer to comment, and he said she is on tour in Europe, but that he’d forward our message. We’ll let you know if we hear anything back from her.

Thank you, Harlan. And we will never forget our visit to the secret passages and hidden rooms of Ellison Wonderland, including the futuristic vault we are probably not supposed to talk about. (But we’re still keeping our photos off the ‘net. Some things are just too good share.)

Jon, back to you to help us put these statements about Hubbard and religion into some context…

JON: From his neophyte membership of the Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, in 1940, Hubbard had an eye on this particular main chance. Lawrence Wright points out that there is little in the way of religion in Hubbard’s background. His teen journals — when he was supposedly studying in the mystic East with gurus in ‘India, Tibet and China’ — make no mention of religious teaching, beyond telling us that the Chinese lamas ‘sounded like bull-frogs.’ The trips to Tibet and India were imaginary, as we know the trips to China were brief holidays. He fell in with Arthur Burks, and spoke with him of ‘the little its,’ which he claimed he could see. These are the ‘elemental beings’ who he mentions as his ‘slaves’ in the Affirmations or the ‘body satans’ of Scientology (remember to lisp, when you say ‘satan’ and you have understood the fundamental truth of Scientology, where a ‘thetan’ sits in the place of God). Mysticism had little place in The Hub’s scheme. Just yesterday, I had an e-mail from an ex-member saying that Hub’s investigation of the Vedas, the Tao, and the Sutras seemed a little superficial. That is my experience too. Hubbard saw these ideas through the eyes of his super-junkie hero, Aleister Crowley. Ex-members would do well to read Mircia Eliade or Joseph Campbell for a more accurate view of these traditions than Hubbard’s cartoon clips. As a ‘religion’ Scientology is based upon an extensive study of hypnosis and of Crowley. There is a distinct shortage of references to Christiantiy, apart from his suggestion in a long out-of-print version of The Phoenix Lectures (which I happen to have a copy of) where we find that ‘God just happens to be the trick of this universe.’

The Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology are simply embarrassing. We might, however, join in this Scientology prayer: ‘At this time, we think of those whose liberty is threatened; of those who have suffered imprisonment for their beliefs; of those who are enslaved and martyred, and for all those who are brutalised, trapped or attacked’, but, at the end, we might add, ‘by David Miscavige’ to differentiate the faith of the ex-members from that of the current member.

THE BUNKER: Ouch, that’s harsh. But clever. Well, with so many independent sources, it looks like this story is confirmed, and between 1948 and 1950 Hubbard was indeed telling people that he intended to cash in by starting a religion (or, as in Harlan’s version, was pushed into it by his friends). As we learned last time, it took him a few more years to accomplish his goal, when he registered his first Church of Scientology in Camden, New Jersey in December, 1953.



On Thursday morning, we told you about a rare chance to hear a spokesperson for the Church of Scientology be interviewed by an actual journalist. Scientology’s Mark Pinchin, from the London “Ideal Org,” was scheduled to appear on BBC5’s Victoria Derbyshire show on Friday morning.

It was Pinchin who showed up recently on the television talk show of gardener Alan Titchmarsh, and took advantage of a series of softball questions lobbed by the lightweight host to paint an unrealistic portrait of how Scientology works.

Derbyshire wanted to make sure that Pinchin would get some real questions on her show. For help on that, she turned to someone who was once in Pinchin’s place as a spokesman for the church — Mike Rinder.

Rinder tells us what happened next…

BBC5 contacted me to get some background and recorded some statements from me for the church to respond to. And when the church heard this, they backed out at the last minute.

And that’s a pretty telling indictment of their inability to communicate (though they hold themselves out as the masters of communication) and their uncertainty about whether they can say anything that will convince anyone that maybe they have a point. How can they be so scared? If it were me, I would have been on the show and getting my message out during the time I had (which would be far more of the time, sitting in studio….). It’s how the church now “handles” their PR. They send written statements in the name of Karin Pouw or a lawyer writes them. No live interviews. Complete fear. It’s a tacit admission that what they are saying is BS and they know it. So, all they can do is try to BUY PR with paid ads….

I will go on any program with any spokesperson they want to send out. I am sure you would do the same. There are no doubt plenty of other people who would also take them on — Tom De Vocht, Marc Headley, Amy Scobee, Jeff Hawkins just to toss a few off the top of my head.

Well, we’d certainly like to have an opportunity to interview a Scientology spokesperson. As we told the Observer recently, we haven’t had a response to our numerous requests to the church for comment since Debbie Cook’s hearing a year ago.

Come on, Miscavige, what are you afraid of? Answer some questions already. We’re prepared if you are.



The $50 million defamation lawsuit Tom Cruise filed against Bauer Media Group, publisher of Life & Style and In Touch magazines, got a lot more interesting this week as documents in the case laid out what each side will be trying to get out of the other as the discovery process moves forward.

Each side is talking tough and doing its best to give the impression that it will put the other side through hell. Since Bauer is being sued for characterizing Cruise as a deadbeat dad, “abandoning” his daughter Suri after his divorce to Katie Holmes, Bauer will be seeking depositions and documents regarding Cruise’s parenting. It also wants to know what role the actor’s connection to Scientology played in his decisions regarding visitation rights.

Cruise, on the other hand, is threatening to bring up Bauer’s “history of bigotry,” and The Wrap obliged with a piece explaining what that might mean — that the German publisher puts out porn and magazines that appeal to neo-Nazis.

We’re not sure that Wermacht adventure magazines would actually be relevant in a case like this, but who knows.

Both sides are acting like they’re loaded for bear, and if things proceed and discovery really does start coming in, this could become very interesting. But we’d have to imagine that both sides still have a pretty big interest in making this thing go away.


Posted by Tony Ortega on February 16, 2013 at 07:00


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  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    We in RTC called Danny Sherman who, in addition to being the Founder’s biographer, is also an IAS Knight of the Mullet.

    Danny informs us that none of what is being said here is true, and more to the point, what is true is true for you. Therefore, none of what Harlan Ellison, Tony Ortega, or Jon Atack have to say is true for we in the Church of Scientology, the Nation of Islam, or the Citizens Commission Against Religious Bigotry.

    What is true for us is that Scientology works 100% of the time when applied standardly in an RTC-approved Ideal Org.

    What is true for us is what we say and what we say is that everyone who attacks the Church of Scientology is guilty of wholetrack crimes as well as Present Time withholds and overts.

    What is true for us is that we in the Sea Org are putting in Ethics on this planet and we have swept up all SP’s and criminals into the tiny little corner of the internet that is this blog and a handful of other hater websites.

    In the end, we will triumph and none of you will ever get your Bridge. We are sorry to tell you that it is this dark and black for all of you, but you have each pulled it in by your crimes.

    The door is always open a crack should you come to your senses and/or come into very large inheritance.

    • Roger Larsson

      Sherman tanks against Caterpillar bulldozers….it can be interesting.

      • RMycroft

        Not always logical, but always making sense Mr Larsson. Or is that the reverse?

    • Are_sics

      Unbelievable, genius, again. One of my favorite RTC statements ever!

    • Jgg2012

      Right OT8, and Hubbard also was not a satanist, nor a plagiarizer, nor did he kidnap his daughter or commit bigamy…

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      OTVIIIisGrrr8, you totally rock.

    • Overtigo

      “What is true for us is that we in the Sea Org are putting in Ethics on
      this planet and we have swept up all SP’s and criminals into the tiny
      little corner of the internet that is this blog and a handful of other
      hater websites.”

      that shit is funny right there, I don’t care who ya are….

      and, incidentally, doesn’t it seem like all of us SPs are over here atm? Kudos to Mr. Ortega for the juiciest, greasiest slabs of entheta available anywhere!!! The guy is a machine. Thanks Tony!!

    • blissfulldreams

      [In the end, we will triumph and none of you will ever get your Bridge. We are sorry to tell you that it is this dark and black for all of you, but you have each pulled it in by your crimes.

      The door is always open a crack should you come to your senses and/or come into very large inheritance.]
      for all those who come into a large inheritance we are now offering courses on how build your bridge yourself that way you are sure to be able to cross your bridge whilst on the road to freedom and clearing the planet your bridge can be tailored to your every individual need please apply @tonyortegascionwatchersihaveabridgetosellyou

  • Unex Skcus

    Off topic, sorry, but Senator Nick Xenaphon (Aust), has been detained at Malaysia, and will be deported. He has spoken out against Co$, and human rights issues in general:

    • TonyOrtega

      It’s a political dispute, nothing more. Nick pisses off the Malaysian government because he’s a pain in their ass. Nothing to do with CoS, etc.

      • Captain Howdy

        I thought CoS/OSA was suspected of planting the story in a Malaysian paper portraying Nick as being anti-islam ?

    • Bella Legosi

      You sawthat too! Yay i dont feel so alone! Should have known with yu guys! I love this blog

    • mirele

      Better link:

      Xenophon is a canny politician. The Aussie upper house is pretty well divided, with a few small party/independent senators. Xenophon is one of the latter. His vote is sought by both parties to pass legislation and he exploits this for his causes: Bringing Scientology to heel, Malaysian human rights and restrictions on gambling (for example, “pokies”). I have to admire the guy for spending his political capital on Scientology–most politicians would have done nothing.

  • Anon Nom Nom

    So who else is bummed that the space craft that was carrying the reincarnated soul of LRH crashed into Russia yesterday?

    The dude really should have focused his attention on the Kool logos in America.

    Total fail, LRH.

    • Roger Larsson

      Why make a kopek/word when it is possible to make rubles by the making of a religion?

      • richelieu jr

        You know what the difference between a Ruble and a Dollar is?

        A Dollar.

        • monkeyknickers


  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Long time critic, Robert Vaughn Young, now gone off to criticize Hubbard through the galaxy, claimed that he found the “penny a word” quote by George Orwell and used it to defuse the many people who had heard Hubbard say much the same thing. He implied that Hubbard, at the time, wasn’t even aware of Orwell’s statement.

    I have spoken to two other SF writers who were there at the time. Both were good men, men I still respect, but they were scared to say anything unambiguous to me about Hubbard’s cult. I can’t blame them. They didn’t know me. Ellison is quite a guy. He has always been a man of great courage.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Can you say which two? And agree about Ellison. What a hoot that guy is.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        Yeah, as I said, like Hubbard they are exploring the galaxy now.

        In 1970, Isaac Asimov was famous within the SF community but his name hadn’t yet become a household world. He was accessible. I met him at an SF convention that year. It was also the year that my affair with Scientology began. He would not give a direct answer about his opinion of Scientology. He commented that Hubbard was an excellent singer and he would remember him for his beautiful voice.

        Julie Schwartz was a New York agent for SF writers during the golden age of Science Fiction. He later became the guiding hand at DC comics and is properly credited with rejuvenating the comic book industry. We were both guests at a comic convention. I was with him and only one other person, his friend Murphy Anderson, in the green room. We all worked for DC at the time. We talked for about an hour and then I asked Schwartz about Scientology. Schwartz searched for words, this man who was never at a loss for words. After an awkward moment I said, “That’s OK. You don’t know me. You don’t know if I have a tape recorder in my pocket”. We changed the subject. The next day he saw me in the halls and tapped me on the shoulder. “It was the money.” That were his exact words and that was all he said.

        Pardon me if I go on about SF and Scientology.

        Years later I was a guest at a local convention. When asked if I would like to be on any panels I said, “How about, ‘Why Scientology?'”. The person in charge of programming thought it was a great idea but phoned me a day or two later and remarked, “One of our guests has done a lot for this convention and he is rumoured to be a Scientologist. We are going to have to drop it.” I couldn’t blame her.

        I attended the World Con in Toronto in 1973. At the closing ceremonies the Scientologists gave the convention committee a framed print by Frank Frazetta depicting Battlefield Earth. They then asked the crowd to acknowledge L.Ron for his contribution to the world of SF. Like sheep, we applauded. By the way, that last one is a fairly vague memory, but even if I am off on some detail, I am not far off.

        Algis Budrys was the coordinator of Writers of the Future. He wanted to put an ad in a friend’s comic book promoting the contest. My friend wrote him a letter (there was no internet then) telling him in very certain terms that he would do nothing to promote Scientology. This showed principles. Budrys wanted the back inside cover. My friend could have used the ad revenue. Budrys wrote back pretty much saying, “I have no idea why you would say those things”. I am doing my best here to quickly paraphrase a letter from 25 years ago that I read only once. I do not mean to demean Mr. Budrys except for his association with Scientology. Someone else here might be able to talk more knowledgeably about his relationship the the cult. One friend, also involved with Writers of the Future in its earliest days, told me that like many writers, Mr. Budrys had financial difficulties. They were solved by his fronting Writers of the Future. Again, that’s OK. I understand.

        When Battlefield Earth came out I wrote a letter to Analog which had once been Astounding Science Fiction, which of course, first published Dianetics. I said that pickets were happening all over the world, Scientology was being criticized on the internet, Battlefield Earth was being savaged by critics and it was time for them to take a stand. After all, it was their magazine that started the problem. I didn’t even get a response. A friend later explained that the magazine was not fiscally healthy and the reaction to a critical article on Scientology might be enough to drive them into bankruptcy. That was OK. I understand.

        Anyway, with all this, it is all the nicer to see Harlan Ellison discussing what went on. I know he has gone on record before. It is just great to see him affirming his interactions with Hubbard, here, within a critical forum.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Oh thank you for these details! If you haven’t read this book about Heinlein, (with all kinds of details about Hubbard) I highly recommend. All the writers referenced concluded that Hubbard’s “issues” went viral after he came back from the war (The Master And the student?). Heinlein had given Hub a place to stay and he was supposed to help with a writing project, but then disappeared and ended up with Parsons. Scientology seems to be born out of Hubbard’s mental illness going full blown after the war. There is Plenty of comments and letters from the likes of Asimov and others about Hubbard in there.

          Robert A. Heinlein: In Dialogue with His Century: Volume 1 (1907-1948): Learning Curve

          • RMycroft

            Strange Angel, p.271:

            “The more complete story of Hubbard is that he is now in Fla. living on his yacht with a man-eating tigress named Betty-alias-Sarah, another of the same kind … He will probably soon thereafter arrive in these parts with Betty-Sarah, broke, working the poor-wounded-veteran racket for all its worth, and looking for another easy mark. Don’t say you haven’t been warned. Bob [Robert Heinlein] thinks Ron went to pieces morally as a result of the war. I think that’s fertilizer, that he always was that way, but when he wanted to conciliate or get something from somebody he could put on a good charm act. What the war did was to wear him down to where he no longer bothers with the act.”

            (L. Sprague de Camp, letter to Isaac Asimov, 27 August 1946.)

            • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

              Holy Cow! That’s new to me, too.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              That’s the one. Thank you. And while all you beautiful sci fi geeks are out playing today, I’ve been trying in vain to find out if Hubbard had written about Area 51 and spy planes. In Lawrence Wright’s book, “Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief” he mentions a suicide note that Quentin left about going to Vegas to see CIA spy planes. Of course, today, we know more about the testing and the A12 recon platform planes and prototypes.

              I’ve already checked to see if this note was available (it’s not) to see what else was in there. I’ve never heard of such a note, and checked with a few people and they hadn’t heard of it either. I’m wondering if he got this idea from Ron, perhaps from one of his sci fi works or someone else.

              Thanks, if anyone has any insight.

              β€œHe left a confused note, full of references to UFOs, saying that he was going to Area 51, the secret airbase north of Las Vegas, Nevada, where the CIA has developed spy planes; in popular culture, Area 51 was said to be where an alien spacecraft was stored.”

              Wright, Lawrence (2013-01-17). Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief (pp. 132-133). Knopf. Kindle Edition.

          • Missionary Kid

            Thanks for the reference.

          • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

            Thanks. No. I haven’t read it. I’ll check it out.

            • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

              Checked it out and favourited it at Amazon.

        • RMycroft

          Torcon II was in 1973, but Battlefield Earth wasn’t published until 1982. Was it “in the works” for that long?

          • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

            Thanks for pointing that out. I attended the World Con in 1973 in Toronto and also in 2003. I was talking about the 2003 convention. I have now changed it on the above post.

            • RMycroft

              I’m surprised they bothered in 2003. After Conspiracy, the Brighton UK Worldcon in 1987, I’d have thought they’d burned all their Bridges with fandom. (At Ad Astra in 1989, I gave Hubbard a Woodie award for most prolific dead author.)


    • BosonStark

      You know, for not being aware of things Orwell said, Hubbard sure did a good job of bringing to life a lot of “1984” which was written in 1949.

      Given that Hubbard saw fit to drool on endlessly about bloody everything, it’s impossible to believe that he didn’t have some quips and stories about his “religious angle.”

    • RMycroft

      Judith Merril and Frederik Pohl are two other authors who have said that they witnessed Hubbard making “start a religion, that’s where the money is” type remarks at a New Jersey SF convention. Judy even confirmed the bar bet story (not Heinlein).

  • Bella Legosi

    This is off toic but I just read Sen. Niick Xenophon has been detained in Malasia citing national security laws. Pretty interesting. Apparently he flew ahead of national elections to meet with opposition and other reformers of that country. We didnt make it past the immigration gate, was toldhe was on a watchlist, and then detained. The artical I read said this visit was to be low key (I read he was observing the last elections there and was caught in the protest crowd that had been tear gassed). So……who do you think ratted him out to the Malaysian government? I read also that this detention has taken offcials in Aus by surprise and are in contact with Malaysian gov for his immdiate release.

    • Bella Legosi

      Excuse the horrible spelling……i admit i am lost without spell check on this phone…..thought you guys would be interested on this bit of news i saw on bbc

      • Bella Legosi

        Nevermind just saw the post and tonys reply

    • mirele

      While I could see Scientology attempting to rat out Xenophon to the Malaysian government, there’s enough bad blood between Xenophon and the Malaysian powers that be where Scientology would simply not matter.

  • LongNeckGoose

    THANK YOU so much for posting Ellison’s eyewitness testimony about the origin of Dianetics! This seems to me to be an important piece of the jigsaw puzzle that has been missing up until now. I’ve never heard Wilhelm Reich mentioned in discussions of Dianetics but Reich’s story may be very relevant in explaining Hubbard’s later well-documented paranoia. My understanding is that the FDA came down on Reich’s orgone box like a ton of bricks, and that Reich himself died in prison. Assuming that Hubbard was aware of this, it made a lot of sense for him to spend his last years on the lam. (On the other hand, in my opinion, Hubbard died in a prison of his own making anyway, but that’s another story.)

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    The Harlan Ellison and Robin Williams clip discussing LRH is a Must Hear.

    The days of the Heinlein, Asimov, et al writers is so fascinating because they were intertwined with wars and politics and science and they left their footprint in all. In the above clip you can hear Harlan’s astonishment as well as fascination as a teenager from Cleveland, Ohio sitting among the pulp writers he mentions. I love the butcher paper story and the story that Hubbard was the first to have an electric typewriter so he could get more out faster. I have typed on Underwood manual typewriters and then on some of the first electric typewriters. You had to retrain your fingers completely because the manual keys were so heavy and unwieldy, but oh the speed!

    Hubbard must have been the envy of the writing club. It’s like he had the first iPad or iPod ever.

    Wow, Tony, so now I’m wondering if there’s a version of the Hydra Club today? What a fantastic blog today. This Man Is On Fire!

    • Roger Larsson

      We has it all in our fingers. A Hubbard making pennies than dollars had made the world more happy.

    • Bella Legosi

      Part of me wonders if it was a penny a word that drove Hubs creativity and prolific writing at the time. The man seems motivated by the almighty dollar and that motivation has imprinted itself on the legacy of Co$ today, if not absorbed it totally. Ask a non scientologist these days why not join amd there are usually two responses:
      1. laughter followed by some witty reference to Zenu or Ccouch jumping Tom Cruise
      2. They can not afford it.
      Now what other religion costs soooo much that finances play a role in one’s spiritual development or determines their joining said religion?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I’m going with Money, Mania, and Heinlein Envy

    • Observer

      It’s true … I learned to type on a manual typewriter, and still have a tendency to beat the keyboard. And I remember oohing and aahing at the first Selectric typewriters. lol!

    • RMycroft

      And yet, pictures of Hubbard in his later years show that he’d gone back to manual typewriters.

      The butcher paper is a Cool Story, but I’d want some confirmation of what rolls of butcher paper were like back in the day. These days, butcher paper tends to be waxed which would be horrible for typing on.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        If trembling hands became part of his physiological profile, he would have Had to go back to manual. Butcher paper did not have the wax on it that I remember from my grandmother’s kitchen, say mid 50’s, anyway and It was light brown and might have been mottled. Greasy meats were double or triple wrapped because they would leak through. The butcher was an old world immigrant and I remember it being on a role of some type.

      • richelieu jr

        Kerouac did the same thing, so I’m going to say it’s credible…

        • The Dark Avenger

          Kerouac used a Teletype roll, which was a long roll of paper designed for teletype machines that were in use in newsrooms and sufficiently big businesses of the day.

          • RMycroft

            Sure, and when we ran out of teletype roll in high school, we lifted hand towel rolls from the washrooms. That was useful since they still had coke machines and spills in those days.The Kerouac story makes me wonder if anyone had actually ever seen Hubbard’s setup with the butcher paper. It was a Cool Story, and Hubbard was inclined to steal those.

          • richelieu jr

            Sounds right to me. I stand corrected.

      • Captain Howdy

        My father owned a butcher store in the 60’s,70’s. The white paper had wax on one side and that was for freezing and there was the pink paper that had no wax on it.

  • Bella Legosi

    The way I see Dianetics and Co$ is a terrible mixture of Ancient Mystery School (Mr.Crowley is very prevalent and pops up if you are into conspiracy theory and secret societys. Very interesting stuff) teachings and flat out snake oil marketing. I cant think of anything with such a volitile mixture of supposed wisdom and fraud.

    • Trustmeonthis

      I have been reading up on the Crowley/OTO angle, and yes, it is definitely in there. The book Strange Angel, by George Pendle, is a biography of Jack Parsons – the guy who introduced LRH to the OTO. (They had a little j/o club where they tried to manifest demons and stuff by wanking. It’s in Going Clear, too.) As Jamie DeWolf says, it is probably the only part of $cientology that actually works. And it isn’t the nice side of magick, at all.

      • Robert Long

        “tried to manifest demons and stuff by wanking”

        Easily the best description of the Parsons/Hubbard sex magik I’ve ever heard. Even the “evilest man on earth(tm),” Cowley said something like “we can only pray those two goats were unsuccessful.”

      • richelieu jr

        Another recommandation for Strange Ange, which is fascinating– What an interesting fellow, Jack Parsons, without a tenth of the nastiness or guile of l L Ron… But yes, a wanker…

        • Trustmeonthis

          Meeting LRH was one of the worst things that happened to Parsons. Which I suppose is something a lot of folks can say, actually…

  • John P.

    Holy. Flying. F**k. TonyO gets to hang out with Harlan Ellison at his house? This is nothing short of green-as-a-Martian envy-causing news that will have me twisted in knots all day. Beyond incredible. Beyond unbelievable. This gets my vote as Most. Awesome. Exclusive. Story. Ever.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      I know, right? Tony should start his Own Hydra Club. The Bunker Club? and how long do we have to wait before we get to pester him about seeing those vault pix? Can’t wait for his book. You just know it’s going to sizzle!

      • RMycroft

        When Hubbard was on the left coast, he tended to hang with the MaΓ±ana Literary Society.

        • richelieu jr

          IS that when you’ll get to the pile of books by your bed manana, but tonight you’ll be reading ‘Hello!’?

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          You mean “Vance Wimpole”?

          • RMycroft

            I’m pretty sure that he was two characters in that book.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Yeah….exactly what you said!

      • Captain Howdy

        If I was Warren Buffet instead of buying Heinz I would buy the Forrest J Ackerman museum and Ellison Wonderland, if I could, and no one would see me ever again.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Take me with you! I will bring an endless supply of vodka.

          Of course I am in Palm Beach right now, so I am in a hyper state of envy anyway!

          • Captain Howdy

            I forgot to include buying my own pharmacy like John Phillips did.

          • blissfulldreams

            BTN2 you’re in Plam Beach and you are envious of something or someone else pft i’m in London and will gladly trade

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Well I was in PB, but I couldn’t convince anyone to adopt me. So now I am in Ft. Lauderdale.
              I am hoping the rich people here are not nearly so picky!

            • blissfulldreams

              lol well if you find them see if they will adopt me to

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Sure, rub it in. It’s chilly here in central FL. You got the only warm spot left.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Oh wrongo Obiwan! It’s freaking windy and cold here too!
              I thought I found the only warm spot in the nation and FAILED!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Just checked…104 in the Spa. Never mind, good reading weather and in 2 days, up to 80.

            • stillgrace

              Don’t hate me, but it’s 70 degrees in my backyard right now! Hard to hate CA sometimes.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Do you live in San Diego?
              That is the only place on earth with perfect weather…always!

            • stillgrace

              No, about 450 miles north. I have family in San Diego, though. I was there a year ago this week, and it poured rain for two days. Nobody could believe it. They have bumperstickers there: “Welcome to San Diego! Now Go Home!”

    • richelieu jr

      I have to say I used to know Forry Ackerman in Silverlake (who didn’t, he was such a lovable guy!), and hung out at his home/museum from time to time. I met a short little guy there who was a really great guy, and it turned out to be Ellison.. I was really worried at first, because his, erm, reputation precedes him, but he was perfectly sociable and great fun. I spoke to him about his tiff with Sinatra and the idea of speaking of Hubbard never crossed my mind (nor with Forry, ever! I had no idea that he had been Hubbard’s agent until learning it around these parts… What a missed opportunity!)

      • Captain Howdy

        Lucky stiff. If it wasn’t for ‘Famous Monsters” and Marvel, I never would have survived long enough to make it to “Playboy”.

        • richelieu jr

          I used to subscribe to FM, as well as Fangoria, Starlog and most especially, Cinemagic!
          Playboy came later πŸ˜‰

          Forry was really a great, generous soul, motivated only, as far as I could see, by a love of Sci-Fi and the imagination… I ma absolutely certain that, had I quizzed him on Hubbard, he’s have blown my mind! His stories were great anyways… We used to sit in his kitchen for hours. I was always late afterwards!

  • BosonStark

    So, the “Church’s” (gag) letterwritinghole Karin Pouw isn’t going to ever appear in public and neither is this Org BritRonbot going to talk. Maybe they should declare the whole organization a “Hole” and have their OT committees postulate some bars for the doors.

    Instead of these costly building renovations for Orgs, the “Church” could just put used doublewides together and play up “humiliation/prison angle” since the religion/Bridge to Total Xenu angle seems to be failing.

    It’s their brilliant founder’s policy, “Always attack, never defend,” — worked great when secrets could be kept. Somehow they’ve got to get their hands on the list of everybody who ever bought a copy of Dianutty, so they can alert them about their new Golden Age of Donating Everything you Own and Beyond.

    Maybe a trend could start in Hollywood that at every party it should be mandatory to either tell a good Hubbard story — maybe one from Wright’s book — “Did you know that L. Ron Hubbard…?” — or just some good Xenu jokes. Then watch the clams go apoplectic.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      “The CashHole”

      • BosonStark

        Scientology —> CashHoleatology

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          The CashHole to Total Lunacy”

        • richelieu jr

          All those ASHOs are total CashHoles…

    • Missionary Kid

      Maybe she should be called the unfunny gag writer?

  • Observer

    Tom Cruise is so out of touch (no pun intended). The days when people believed everything he said are long gone. He’s a laughingstock to a large portion of the public. And the part about Bauer wanting to know what role Scientology had in TC’s decisions regarding visitation rights … well, I’m guessing Big Being #2 will put his tiny, expensively shod foot down and demand that slightly less diminutive Big Being #3 drop the whole thing rather than divulge that information. Either that or he’ll make Tom give a ridiculous shore story.

    • Bella Legosi

      πŸ™‚ Discovery can be such a game changer. For a “church” that loves to hide behind the First Ammendment they sure hate it when us “wogs” use it. I hope bauer does not cave on revealing sources. It will prolly get dropped. They really dont need more bad press.

    • Ze Moo

      You can be certain the TC paper shredder has been working, nothing will be ‘discovered’ unless Katie Holmes is forced to show her copy of the divorce agreement. South Park really nailed ‘I’ll sue you in England” Tom Cruise. The fudge packer jokes in a later episode still crack me up.

    • Jgg2012

      You can be sure that Katie is an SP, Suri is a DB, and TC cannot talk to her. Unless celebrities get special treatment, but we know that THAT is not true. Of course, LRH said “always attack, never defend” so they will go after Bauer.

  • Ziontologist

    I had to read today’s blog twice, just to savor it. Lot’s of good stuff today with Jon Atack and Harlan Ellison. Fascinating. It gave my brain a good morning stretch, especially the part about Hubbard being humble!

    • Hubbard wasn’t humble, but he would feign it to generate alliances. In one of his lectures, he tells the audience basically how he didn’t get calculus because IMO he knew his audience didn’t get calculus and he also knew there was an emotional component to this which was that they most likely actually hated calculus. This set up agreement and an alliance with the group that made him likable. It also put them in a heightened emotional state and enable Hubbard to move on to the second step, which was to manipulate the crowd in some way.

      I feel his game was to pull one over on people and in this regard, he had a contempt for his audience. The absurdity of his conclusion that calculus was of no use should have made them question his claims of being a nuclear physicist. It probably gave him quite a thrill to slip this inconsistency past the crowd.

      So when Harlan says, β€œ… I asked him to do a story for Dangerous Visions, he was very humble and said he wasn’t good enough for something like that …” , I think Hubbard’s true thoughts were that his own projects were far more important than this collaboration, but feigning humility would create an alliance with someone others respected which could be useful to him later on.

      • Missionary Kid

        I’m willing to grant that LRH was humble among fellow writers before he hit it big with his money-making machine. Once he got a taste of fame and fortune with Dianetic$ and $cientolog, the hubris took over.

        His fellow writers had seen him ‘way back when, and those who didn’t buy in to his con and fall away, like Van Vogt did, it appears were pretty much left alone. I don’t think he ever went on the attack towards Heinlein, Asimov, or Phillip K. Dick.

        After he got the con going, there wasn’t any time to associate with fellow writers, because he was, of course, “saving the world” (making money), and he didn’t want to be bothered by writers with high profiles who might tell the real story. By leaving Ellison alone, he didn’t raise Ellison’s ire – which would have cost him dearly.

        I don’t know where I heard it, but supposedly Campbell said that supporting LRH was the biggest mistake he ever made. Campbell was a contrarian, and LRH’s ideas were something he probably published because it was in alignment with that streak in his personality.

        • Ziontologist

          I also wondered if Hubbard showed some humility among his fellow writers. I also wondered if Ellison tells this story to keep the clams off his back … who knows?

      • Ziontologist

        I also wondered if the humility was sincere, or just another Machiavellian machination.

        • Machiavellian – yes, that’s the word! I suspect whatever wires were cross in his head, they had been crossed very early on or at birth even. Maybe that doesn’t completely rule out the possibility of him having a humble moment or two, but I think I will be hopelessly cynical when it comes to that man’s true intentions.

    • grundoom

      Humble? No way. Must have been fishing for compliments, or hoping Ellison would offer more $$ and his name in big letters on the cover.

      • grundoon

        blasted finger thetans

      • Ziontologist

        Excellent, Grundoon!

  • Jon often gets a lot right about Hubbard but this descriptor of Crowley “super-junkie hero, Aleister Crowley” is off the mark. Crowley did not begin his opiate habit until he was in his 40s on the advice of his doctor to treat his asthma, a common treatment in the time before steroidal mists. His medicinal usage lead to a period of abuse, followed by a period of having kicked. He would again succumb to usage in his later life. the notion that Crowley was a massive junky was the result of early anti-Crowley biographies without minimal sourcing and as later investigation has shown little factuality.

    • Although I think the campaign this site was attached with was rather lame this is worth a read

      • Trustmeonthis

        There is soooooo much myth attached to Crowley, and both his supporters and his detractors gloss over things or miss them completely. You can’t trust the puff pieces any more than the negative ones, and finding anything in the middle ground isn’t easy.

        Right now I am reading Perdurabo by Richard Kaczynski, which is extensively researched and seems more balanced than much of what I’ve seen. I just can’t with the fanboy stuff. I’ve actually been interested in tarot (etc) for years and done a lot of reading, but Crowley has never appealed, so this is an especially intriguing branch of inquiry for me. $cientology is defo full of warmed-over Crowley.

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…He later used heroin recreationally and sacramentally, as he did with many drugs including cocaine, hashish, ether, peyote, and pretty much anything that he could get his hands on to try…”

      How many drugs qualifies you as a junkie and how many as a super-junkie? Jon nailed it..

      • Captain Howdy

        From that same article that Mark linked to;

        “Do you really think that no wise or intelligent person of any value
        should ever be perplexed, feel loneliness, or lack investment capital?
        Really? We take it then that you are a Scientologist.”

        • BuryTheNuts2

          This is freaking hilarious and dead spot ON!

        • sugarplumfairy

          Lol.. “…but he had not superpowers..” now, there I agree with you.. but he did spend the large part of his life trying to acquire them..

          And thanks for the links, but I already know more than I want to know about him.. time to go look at some daffodils, smell some bread baking, smile at some babies and other things one can do in the bright light of a beautiful day..

          • Captain Howdy

            Crowley adherents take the man at his word just like you know who do. They don’t understand he was a showman b.s artist and it was all about the sex and drugs. They believe in magic.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yah.. Truth by assertion is a new concept for me.. but apparently it’s been around a long, long time..

            • BuryTheNuts2

              What? You don’t believe me just cuz I said so?

            • Missionary Kid

              I dislike the acronym, LOL, so I’ll just say it. I laughed out loud.

            • “All Scriptures are inspired by God.” And we know that’s true because it says so right there in the Scriptures. Yep, a very long long time.

          • stillgrace

            “time to go look at some daffodils, smell some bread baking, smile at some babies and other things one can do in the bright light of a beautiful day..”

            Thank you for the reminder, you are wise. I’m NOT going down THAT rabbit hole!

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yah.. Much too dark and scary down there.. and I think there might even be spiders..

            • Captain Howdy

              ” Some are born to sweet delight, some are born to endless night “

            • sugarplumfairy

              “How simple and frugal a thing is happiness: a glass of wine, a roast chestnut, a wretched little brazier, the sound of the sea. . . . All that is required to feel that here and now is happiness is a simple, frugal heart.” -Nikos Kazantzakis

    • Captain Howdy

      The secret behind Crowley’s “sexual magick” i.e his ability to preform for hours, was his use of opiates, which prevents a man from climaxing.

      • blissfulldreams

        it can also cause erectile dysfunction

      • There isn’t really much to suggest “perform for hours” in Crowley’s own diary accounts of his sex magic experiments. The closest you find to that sort of thing is the suggested related to “Eroto-Comatose Lucidity” in his work _De Arte Magica_ which entails long, repeated sessions of sexual activity for the altered state experiences it brings. The idea that Crowley’s version of the O.T.O. sex magic involved long duration sexual activity came more from Robert Anton Wilson’s works such as the Playboy published _Sex and Drugs_. RAW was influenced by Neo-Tantric ideas and to a certain extent projected upon Crowley’s material.

        • sometimes what i call “Man time” is used in these claims of ” all night long” . Kinda like when the clock at a football game says there is 3 mins left in the game but you know it will be 20 mins…only in reverse πŸ˜‰

      • Heh, the junkie paradox…

      • i am still down for starting a new sex cult …i mean sex and drugs i understand …”knowingness of knowing how to know stuff” makes my head hurt . How bad is it that Crowley makes more sense than Hubbard??

        • Captain Howdy

          Crowley and drugs = good . It took Jimmy Paige to finish the equation for him.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Ah bullshit . It just took jimmy page to buy his rundown house and enjoy a bit of whoo hoo.
            I saw Jimmy Page’s drunk ass fall in a hole onstage when he was so drunk ass he couldn’t even hold a note!
            Of course… Now that I think about it…..I guess that is a badge of honor.

            • The Dark Avenger

              My brush with fame and alcohol was a bit more pedestrian, I stayed up one night during a SF con drinking Metaxa brandy with Robert Adams, who wrote the Horseclan series of novels. He stated that he could get a book contract on the basis of a proposed title. Very interesting guy, old school Catholic, crossing himself at various times like when he was talking about his mother or other subject matter.

            • You’re a moron

            • The Dark Avenger

              Thanks for sharing, Tom.

            • Once again, who is Tom? Furthermore, if you ever found out my real name and called my house like you have Dennis’s over 12 times, I would first berate you like the fool that you are, followed by a nice discussion with your local authorities. That is considered stalking asshole. What don’t you get a life outside of the internet because one of these days, you are going to fuck with the wrong person and guess what, you will get the slapping that you deserve. You are a sick, twisted, demented human being who deserves nothing more than to be unemployed the rest of your life. You can continue to tell all your friends about your “healthy relationship” with Amanda Marcotte (stalker) and live a life of unhappiness.

            • The Dark Avenger

              So you turn up here to harrass me, a nut who has been given limited information and an enemy to fight against.

              That’s somehow fitting on a website devoted to Scientology.

            • Nope, I would never harrass you if you didn’t keep getting me banned from the web-site’s you post on you coward. I have more information than you will ever know about how sick and twisted you are. Calling people once is freak like but 12 TIMES???? You need some serious help. You are clearly as sick and demented as I thought. Do me a favor and save your bullshit for someone who cares DA. Amanda Marcotte will not bail you out this time you douche bag.

              Regarding Scientology who are you Tom Cruise? Maybe that is who you are referring to when you call me Tom, you stalker. If I were Tom Cruise, I would be worried, but he is a sick twisted asshole just like you so he probably wouldn’t care.

              Scientology is fake and for losers/ wanna be scientists. It’s for middle age men who were picked on in high school. it’s for LOSERS who name their kids apple and siri

            • The Dark Avenger

              I would never harrass you if you didn’t keep getting me banned from the web-site’s you post on you coward.

              I wish I could take the credit, Mr. Humility, but I don’t have that kind of influence, nor am I considered enough of a PITA to be banned.

              Ground Control to Major Tom

              Ground Control to Major Tom

              Take your protein pills and put your helmet on

              Ground Control to Major Tom

              Commencing countdown, engines on

              Check ignition and may God’s love be with you


              Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven, Six, Five, Four, Three, Two, One, Lift-off

              This is Ground Control to Major Tom

              You’ve really made the grade

              And the papers want to know whose shirts you wear

              Now it’s time to leave the capsule if you dare

              “This is Major Tom to Ground Control

              I’m stepping through the door

              And I’m floating in a most peculiar way

              And the stars look very different today

              For here

              Am I sitting in a tin can

              Far above the world

              Planet Earth is blue

              And there’s nothing I can do

              Though I’m past one hundred thousand miles

              I’m feeling very still

              And I think my spaceship knows which way to go

              Tell my wife I love her very much (she knows!)

              Ground Control to Major Tom

              Your circuit’s dead, there’s something wrong

              Can you hear me, Major Tom?

              Can you hear me, Major Tom?

              Can you hear me, Major Tom?

              Can you hear…

              Am I floating round my tin can

              Far above the Moon

              Planet Earth is blue

              And there’s nothing I can do?

            • Are you serious? Mr. Copy and Paste. Do you do anything original? Do you know anything other than being an asshole? How is your Scientology asshole? You are sick, demented, twisted. I hope no one ever responds to you but me because you are not worth 1 second

            • The Dark Avenger

              Hey, Tom, what’s happening.

            • Have you told everyone on this blog about you “very healthy relationship” with Amanda Marcotte. You are one sick, twisted, demented fuck. If you don’t leave Dennis alone over on Oliver’s blog, I will find a way to ruin your blogging career. Do me a favor and tell all those assholes Oy BABY OY says hello. Tell fudgepack rider he is a fucking loser but not as big a fucking loser as you are. Zython on the other hand is running neck and neck with you. Frank Disalle is a legend

            • 50 something year old man, no job, unemployable. Small town and everyone knows you are dirt bag. No potential employer will ever hire some sick, psycho, demented Scientology loving fruit loop. You are forever a liberal blog posting loser. You and Oliver, DB, Burn, Frothy, Zython and all those other fudge packers deserve each other. Maybe repack can show you the are of packing fudge? Do me a favor and let all those assholes I said hello. Oy Baby Oy

            • The Dark Avenger

              Tom Tom the pipers son

              Stole a pig and away he ran,

              The pig was eat and Tom was beat

              And Tom went roaring down the street.

            • Wow, you are a sick, twisted, demented scum bag. Tell repack I said Hi asshole. Oh, did you tell all your liberal wacko friends about your “healthy relationship” with Amanda Marcotte? Copy and Paste douche bag?

        • Crowley was an intelligent and charismatic man who expressed himself well. He was also honest. And he was completely batshit, with a moral compass that swung wildly and was usually off — but he was a better person than Hubbard. By a pretty large distance. But then, nearly everyone is.

    • richelieu jr

      Strange treatment, when you think about it; I have asthma but have been on morphine for 8 years due to the consequences of an auto wreck, and one thing it does for sure is depresses respiration… Since, I have sleep apnea and shortness of breath, due in great part to these ‘opiates’…

      Kind of like when cigarettes where supposed to help asthma and emphysema, huh?

  • Are_sics

    I think it’s perfectly true and kind of obvious that Elron was not a good enough writer to be included in “Dangerous Visions”. I am shocked that Elron himself knew it. Or that he would say it. Was it really fear that he’d be shown up against the backdrop of the really good writers? Maybe this fear led to an engram that is, for various reasons, being restimmed to the point that spokespeople can’t speak. (Or is that not literal or direct enough for “engram” theory?)

    • LongNeckGoose

      Great point, Are_sics! I remember opening “Battlefield Earth” thinking it was going to be something amazing, but I was very disappointed. It didn’t nearly come up to the level of the “SciFi (3rd gen)” writers like Harlan Ellison, Philip K. Dick, Ursula K. LeGuin and Stanislaw Lem. [I would call Wells, Verne and Stapleton 1st gen and Heinlein, Asimov and Hubbard 2nd gen.] At best, Battlefield Earth did show that Hubbard could still write fiction in all of the genres of the pulp magazines of the 1930s (again, 2nd gen).

      • Ze Moo

        All of the writers you call 2nd generation evolved and got better. Heinlein in particular got much better then his 1950’s work. Hubbard never evolved. He effected a 1900’s Burrows or Lovecraft style and that ‘penny a word’ mindset never changed. Harlan Ellison was a ‘creative consultant’ on Babylon 5, they had a species called the Marcabs. I always found that name hilarious.

        • Missionary Kid

          You’ve got it exactly right. I could forgive the prose of Hugo Gernsback’s 124C41+, because it was a product of its time, but I found Battlefield Earth to be too close in style.

          People unfamiliar with SF could think it was a decent book, but I found it unreadable because his writing was suck in the 30s.

          • Observer

            Seldom has a typo been truer … it was suck in the 30s and it’s suck today. lol!

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks. Nice catch. It was a typo, and you’re right.

            • It was a Freudian slip. Obviously those suppressive psychlo-catrists have got to you!

            • Missionary Kid

              Oh, I hope so!

        • LongNeckGoose

          Marcabs: ikr! But Straczynski killed off all of the Marcabs, didn’t he? B5 was great, I’m just about to start cycling through the whole series for the 20th anniversary. Just bought the original pilot from iTunes (the one with the music by Steward Copeland of the Police). I probably should have mentioned Arthur C. Clarke as 2nd gen as well. Heinlein did get better except he got worse after that. A speaker at a sci-fi convention said that you can trace Heinlein’s decline by how soon after page 1 the word “spank” appears.

    • grundoon

      At the time, L. Ron Hubbard’s plans for world domination were in high gear, and he was wishing the world would forget that he was ever a pulp sf writer. It was a common slam against Scientology.

      (Later, after those plans failed, he decided to restart his sf career in order to have a legitimate source of income to show the IRS, and a defensible cover for his comm lines into Author Services through which he was secretly still running Scientology.)

    • In the Robin Williams interview, Ellison mentions two or three stories by Hubbard (“Fear”, “Slaves of Sleep”, and “The Tritions”) that he regards as fantasy/science fiction classics. I’ve enjoyed Ellision’s fiction and am tempted to read them based on his priase. I’m wiling to believe it’s possible that a couple of Hubbard’s stories may be good enough to have lasting value.

      • Are_sics

        If you value them, you value them. And perhaps a couple of the best stories are good. But Dangerous Visions was an amazing anthology. Full of writers better than Hubbard. The next volume, called Again Dangerous Visions was, too.

        At least, I give a recommendation. I’m sure someone out there thinks Hubbard is better than any of the writers Ellison anthologized. And all I can think to say to that is… enjoy.

      • Are_sics

        I’m not sure what’s happened to the replies…. mine disappeared. Let’s just say, far be it from me to impugn your literary sensibilities. I think Dangerous Visions (and the follow-up, Again Dangerous Visions) were groundbreaking anthologies with a higher standard of writer. And I’m surprised that Hubbard himself would say so.

        I have nothing against you or anyone enjoying a “couple of Hubbard’s stories”.

  • sugarplumfairy

    Wow.. That was great.. Ellison wonderland.. A 16-year-old witness to the conception of dianetics and co$.. And in the recording, Ellison even mentions engrams.. And to top it off, Jon Atack to verify it all.. I frking love it..

    I’m kinda surprised, what with his love of making up crazy new words, that hubbturd held on to ‘engrams..’ Maybe he thought keeping it would lead credence to his new money-making religous venture.. And when he saw how well the whole thing worked, he must have thought he died and went to heaven.. I wonder if he ever thanked del Ray with some flowers or a nice bottle of wine?

    • The word he made up was “norns”. It didn’t sound right so he changed it to “comanomes”. That was no better; finally he took the word “engrams” from a genuine research paper on how memories are stored (one that of course had little in common with LRH’s version).

      • sugarplumfairy

        Lol.. of course..thanks for that..

    • grundoon

      Hubbard probably thanked Lester del Rey by trying to borrow money from him and move in with him.

  • MO Mom

    <3 Harlan!! He as been one of my favorite authors since I regained my senses in college and I had the pleasure of meeting him in 96ish. Some people can just write and others are storytellers. Harlan is a storyteller.

  • Truthiwant

    Hubbard seems to state quite openly that he was not making much money writing (one cent a word) but if you look at this, which is an old English documentary about Hubbard, (you can see the relevent part from about 18mins 45secs) he says the exact opposite!

    The whole documentary is great fun and it’s full of fine examples of outright lying, direct from The Commodore’s mouth.

    • Missionary Kid

      Lie? Hubbard? I’m shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

      • Truthiwant

        Well, maybe lying is a bit hard on the old man. Let’s just say he was fibbing!

        • Missionary Kid

          As I remember it, you’re recently escaped from Co$.

          When you take a look at the public record, fibbing doesn’t even start to describe Hubbard. His past, his books, his tech, and everything else are lies. He was a pathological liar, and I don’t use that term loosely. His Science Fiction contemporaries suspected it before he ever came up with Dianetic$ with their unwitting help. (Read what Harlan Ellison said about it).

          Go to It’s got a lot of free resources for people who’ve left Co$.

          Especially telling is Barefaced Messiah, which is available to read free online, as well as the interview with LRH jr. (aka Ron DeWolf) in Penthouse, which he was later paid to recant. See the video of his grandson, Jamie DeWolf, telling about how he was pushed into it.

          While you’re at it, check out the war record of LRH. He’s lucky he wasn’t court martialed.

          For books that are for sale, A Piece of Blue Sky and Going Clear are two books to read.

          • Truthiwant

            Thanks for your reply and that information.

            • Missionary Kid

              The older edition of A Piece of Blue Sky is available online. Read what a British judge said about $cientology under the section called, “What is Scientology”

              This is in open court, as a part of a lawsuit. The newer edition comes out at the end of this month.

              I can only wish you the best.

      • Robert Long

        If you’re shocked about that wait til you find out that there is gambling going on at Rick’s….

        • Missionary Kid

          You recognized where I stole the line. Bingo! πŸ™‚

    • Captain Howdy

      He claimed all during the 50’s,60’s,70’s,80’s he was living off the millions he made off of his fiction writing and was receiving little if any money from the “church”.

      • Truthiwant

        The word ‘fiction’ goes much deeper as far as Hubbard is concerned. His whole existence, beliefs, experiences and writings were fiction.

    • monkeyknickers

      This is one of my favorites. That grill. That face. That complete horseshit issuing from his person. I sincerely can’t believe that someone didn’t just laugh and punch him. IT’S JUST SO OBVIOUS.

  • Captain Howdy

    I know Harlan disavows the film version of “A Boy and His Dog” and I haven’t had the chance to read any of the books yet, but the part when Vic goes underground to the apocalyptic Branson Mo. world always made me think of scientology for some reason. Thank you Mr Ellison πŸ™‚

    • BuryTheNuts2

      That was a creepy ass movie. Of course I watched it while stoned.

      • 1subgenius

        “I never watch TV except when I’m stoned
        Like humans do.”
        –David Byrne

    • Have a barf bag handy. Ellison is one of those little boys who likes to see how far he can go in his work. Some people I know had a bad reaction to it. πŸ™‚

      • Captain Howdy

        The phrase “going too far” doesn’t even register in my brain.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Short video clip on the Amazon site for that documentary, “Dreams with Teeth”. Get Stuffed. lol

        • Joe Lynn

          That’s funny, since that’s the ending of the written story too… Great story. OK Film.

          • Captain Howdy

            Really ? This is what the wikipedia article claims.. ” Ellison disavows the film’s misogynistic conclusion.”

        • Ziontologist

          You know something, this film was recommended to me by a (fringe) Scientologist over 30 years ago … I never saw it, but each time I hear about it, I’m suddenly dying to see it!

          • Captain Howdy

            It’s a good movie if you can tolerate Don Johnson.The telepathic dog “Blood” played by the legendary Benji makes up for Don..j/K. It’s considered a minor classic of it’s kind and time. Look out for the Screamers !

            • Ziontologist


            • Captain Howdy

              You and every other kid in the world who grew up during that time. I still remember doing nuclear attack drills in grammar school back in the 60’s. Why do you think a lot of us turned to

            • stillgrace

              I knew a little bit about nuclear fission as a youngster. I read John Hersey’s “Hiroshima” when I was about ten. I still remember thinking “Why bother?!” as I crouched under my desk during our drills. Talk about cognitive dissonance! Once, when I voiced my despair, the nun gave me yet another demerit.

              Our neighbors had a bomb shelter right in the middle of their back lawn. I thought that was pretty cool. That’s where I was going to head, just in case; forget hiding under a desk!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Nuns With Rulers…. scarier than Nukes.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              was that U under my desk? u speak soothe.

          • Sidney18511

            The movie is on YouTube in full. I justed watched it.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              You need a shower don’t ya!

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Are you related to the Ellison family? lol. No, really?

          • Captain Howdy

            No, but I am a Poe child.

  • Great post today. I had wondered if the existence of the orgone accumulator had something to do with the e-meter. (As an aside, the orgone accumulator has also been posited as an inspiration for the “orgasmatron” in Woody Allen’s “Sleeper”.)

    • 1subgenius

      “Are there any futuristic creatures I have to be worried about? You know like with the body of a crab and the head of a social worker”

    • sugarplumfairy

      “That’s a big chicken..”

    • 1subgenius

      “Don’t mess with my brain. Its my second favorite organ.”

      • sugarplumfairy

        Lol.. “I think we should have sex, but there aren’t enough people..”

        • The Dark Avenger

          “I haven’t seen my analyst in 200 years. He was a strict Freudian. If I’d been going all this time, I’d probably almost be cured by now.”

          • who in God’s name would have sex with you? You are a stalker, fucking loser.

  • SandiCorrena

    Attacked by an Opera singer, wow!!!!!!! She must be so proud of herself – so embarassing!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    I was wondering what year Ellison was mauled (lol) by Julia Migenes-Johnson. This 2006 article makes it seem she is still oblivious to many aspects of scientology, but perhaps she had been off lines. Wonder if she’s bumped into or mauled, either one, Paul Haggis since 2006? Her exhusband, Jervis Johnson, was still in at least up till 2008 records, services And a Patron. At any rate, given she sought scientology out from a horrific childhood, her first listed service is “Stability Rundown” in October 1997. If it was before 1997, than it’s almost like scientology didn’t work.

    • Captain Howdy

      She’s still oblivious. She states in the 2013 Bay Area article that scientology isn’t anti-gay.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist


        • sugarplumfairy


  • Julia Migenes was even in the Sea Org. She was hubtard’s steward on the Royal Scotman. She left the ship (some claim she blew in the middle of the night) while we were in Italy so she could go sing opera there. This would have been in 1968. I took her place as commodore’s steward. I was woken up in the wee hours of the morning and told to get ready to serve the old man himself — I had been the steward to his aides. When I went into his cabin that morning, he asked, “Where’s Julia?” I was too flummoxed to say anything, just shrugged my shoulders and put down his glass of tomato juice.

    • richelieu jr


  • I have been wondering what particular angle Tony was going to use in his book, and I think I have an idea now (based on his clue on reading the blurb in “Parents” magazine). It makes sense, actually, and is one that we haven’t really heard about in a single concise version. I bet it will be a very interesting story.

    • SandiCorrena

      There was blurb in “Parents” Magazine! Current issue?

  • turkeybrain

    The Angry Gay Pope posted this vid on youtube re the Hub starting a religion to make money:

    • Truthiwant

      That’s a good one. I guess there must be many stories like this from the ’50’s about people that knew LRon. Of course it would be interesting to follow up these stories.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Wow. Hubbard was in San Diego for some months of 1958 and 1959. And he did come up with his “blue emeter”, and I think more scientology levels. Oh, 1958 the IRS whooshed his tax exemption away after finding out how much he was raking in.

      So what psychiatrist or psychotherapists did Hubbard include in any of his lectures or projects then? Damn, wish you could get her name!

    • Hey Turkey Brain, you clearly are the fag. Pope on the other hand, a great man. Get a life loser

  • California

    Tony, editing, please: “There is a distinct shortage of references to Christiantiy”

    Great read about the real history of SCN and LRH’s left turn into religion.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Darn my brain! I recall someone quoting a passage direct from Dianutty that said something to the effect that ‘this is not a religion…’ Does anyone have the passage–just for bizarro-world amusement?

      • Captain Howdy

        This one ?
        “Scientology…is not a psycho-therapy nor a religion.”- L. Ron Hubbard’s “Creation of Human Ability” p251
        Or this one ?
        “Dianetics is a science; as such, it has no opinion about religion, for sciences are based on natural laws, not on opinions.”- L. Ron Hubbard, “Dianetic Auditor’s Bulletin”, October 1950

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          thanks cap’n, that’ll do!

        • EnthralledObserver

          I assume Tony is not up to either of these bits yet in his summary breakdown… can’t wait to get to them!

        • grundoon

          In 1950 L. Ron Hubbard was promoting Dianetics as a new branch of medicine. Somehow his research had failed to anticipate the objections of real doctors. In 1951 the Board of Medical Examiners made New Jersey too hot for him. In March 1952 he abandoned the bankrupt Wichita Dianetics Foundation, left them all the rights to Dianetics, and started Scientology. He introduced the “religion angle” in April 1953. In the 1954 Creation of Human Ability he tried to draw a distinction between his beneficent “spiritual philosophy” vs. oppressive, moribund “religions.” Continued pressure from medical authorities made him ever more careful to raise a religious facade without actually changing anything. The black vestments, dog collars and crossed-out crosses were introduced in 1969,

  • PreferToBeAnon2

    What an enjoyable Saturday morning! Thanks Tony and to all the commenters here. You rock! What a portrait is being painted–with confirmation upon confirmation! Love the journey down SciFi author lane.
    How do the Indies ever reconcile this? How in the world to Scions look at his portrait and chant, “Hip, Hip, Hooray?” Yes, these are rhetorical questions. But, I do scratch my head.
    Turkeybrain, do you know if Angry Gay Pope ever found out who the woman was in the video? Just someone random passing by? Interesting story!

    • blissfulldreams

      one of my rhetorical questions would be why shout Hip, Hip Hooray at a picture in the first place

      • Sidney18511

        I would love to know that myself! Where the hell did THAT come from?

        • q-bird

          An idol is a physical thing such as a painting or statue which people regard as being divine and is worshipped.

          • Sidney18511

            Got that, but where did they get the hip, hip, hooray from?

            • q-bird

              oh gotcha fine there – old time military bruhaha? For he’s a jolly good fellow – hip hip HOORAH!

            • Captain Howdy
            • Sidney18511

              Thanks captain!

            • grundoon
            • q-bird

              Good Day to you Cap ~ I did some googling myself after commenting here and also came to these links you have posted. The etymology of the phase is interesting albeit rather dismaying, I must say… a war cry used throughout the ages… fine. Why, I had no idea where it came from originally! I have only heard it myself personally once, cried out by frat guys, 3 times, followed by their frat song, in celebration of one of their own getting a new good job. My husband, while in the special forces in Vietnam, heard it from the British soldiers he encountered there – hence my comment. I was thinking perhaps Hubbard picked it up while in England & used it while at sea? I was hoping someone who was with him in those days might respond with more info.

              The very first video I watched of TC being awarded his medal (which started me down this rabbit hole), I was perplexed by several things, beginning with the set design (gaudy & grandiose), DM’s speech (wha?! Who the fuck IS this guy & what is he selling here?), TC & DM saluting each other (play soldiers!), TC’s speech (gag – made me so very, very, very, very pissed off), and THEN ! Everyone, the whole congregation, turning to face a giant portrait of LRH and shouting hip hip hooray… what are these people DOING & WHY?!

              I most definitely wondered… What in the hell IS Scientology — this is a church?!!!

              More than a year later – I get it: Hip Hip Hock a Loogie!

          • blissfulldreams

            yes i understand the worship thing,
            each religion has things it worships and when most stand in front of an image of their idol they say prayer of their particular faith

            why shout hip hip hooray at it why not something relevant just to Scientology?

    • stillgrace

      I’d like to know who her father is and if he’s still around! It’s obvious that he spoke about his encounter with LRH (at least with his family), as she wouldn’t have been able to remember the details at 2 years old. I wonder if her father ever wrote down anything about this. I think we just got a glimpse of LRH scheming a few years into his “religion” on how to he was going to keep things going and how to keep the money coming in. She seemed believable.

    • Missionary Kid

      I think that the “Independent” $cientologists drank so much of the Kool-Aid that they became seeped in the delusion that LRH actually had something valuable to teach. Since they’re ignorant of psychology and psychiatry independent of Co$, they don’t understand how much LRH copied from them.

      One reason that LRH was so opposed to psychiatry is probably because none of his delusions would stand up to any sort of peer review.

  • 1subgenius

    I suspect that Hubbard’s output was related to amphetamine use.

    • Captain Howdy

      You could buy Benzedrine over the counter during that time period.

      • Roger Larsson

        It’s the truth but the truth can only hurt the ones having secrets they want to hide.

    • richelieu jr

      I wasn’t even aware this was in question.. His behaviour speaks so much of the speed freak, and it was so prevalent amongst his set (Dick, notably).. Plus, wasn’t he dieting?

    • Overtigo

      speed….it’s not just for breakfast anymore. overcome that pesky writer’s block today!

  • villagedianne

    Hubbard’s statement β€˜God just happens to be the trick of this universe.’ is not so unique either. Some “new age” or spiritual types have asserted that the beings we think of as creator “gods” are advanced but still evolving beings themselves, and are neither perfect nor omnipotent. The idea is that these beings are “god” with a little g, and that the prime creative force in the universe is God with a big G. One of the espousers of these ideas is the controversial George Kavassilas at this website:

    • The Dark Avenger

      That dates back to the Gnostics, with their idea of the Demiurge(or Archon, as they called him). It’s basically the creator god who isn’t the same as God, and is in their POV an evil being who receives the worship that rightfully belongs to God.

  • Jgg2012
    I don’t know if this has anything to do with Bauer, or if they covered this story, but here is a piece today on anti-semitism protests in Germany.

  • Ivan Mapother

    Tony, Julia Migenes-Johnson will be getting back to you right after Jason Lee sits down for your promised interview. Just wondering, when’s the last time you touched base with Jason?

  • For the umteenth time, people who have still to read Hubbard’s 1940 short story (or maybe it’s technically considered a short novelette) titled “One Was Stubborn” where Hubbard’s characters include the evil cult leader named “George Smiley”, who sells the population of the future earth on Smiley’s successful cult teachings which train each citizen in how to make the universe around them disappear, arriving each citizen back at essentially “Native State” abilities (in Scientology teachings) where each can then re-create the universe to their liking, as if they are now God with a capital G, then they have not appreciated (my all time pet beef against ALL writers of ALL books on Scientology, as of this moment that I write this for the umpteenth time) Hubbard’s wacky thoughts.

    More interesting to me, was what was Hubbard reading and thinking that led him to give Smiley the cult teachings that let the Smiley cult followers essentially fully “as-is” (erase) the physical universe, putting those earthly Smiley cult members into the driver’s seat as basically what Hubbard at the top of the Hubbard Bridge to Total Freedom fails to deliver, Hubbard the real cult leader, of Hubbard’s “serious” Scientology subject cult leader life, the “Full Cause Over Life” end phenomenon that is NOT delivered, in Scientology.

    Another short story about one’s supposed higher mental powers, is Hubbard’s “Dangerous Dimension”. There are others, but to me, “One Was Stubborn” is the jackpot pulp era Hubbard story that most equates to what Hubbard later sells for the Scientology “End Phenomenon” which is “bring the universe back to Native State” which Hubbard says in his 1982 Birthday Game writing, LRH ED 339R Int “And some day–way, way up the track—we’ll have this universe back in native state and impervious to the faults and traps of yesteryear.”

    So much more details of Hubbard’s writings, still to be carefully scrutinized, in my opinion.

    I don’t support the glowing garbage hagiography tripe that are in the Author Services Inc “Classic Fiction Series” books by Hubbard, but the raw material is in those books, to scratch for Hubbard’s “mystical” ideas, which are not just Crowley and Rosicrucianism or Abreaction pyschology.

    Wright comments in his book that Hubbard’s fiction religion doesn’t deliver the goods, I paraphrase, like Hubbard wished his Scientology would deliver the high spiritual states. Fiction isn’t reality.

    Well, the “One Was Stubborn” short story or novelette is evidence of the Hubbard fiction delivering the cult mystical full blown God powers to the characters, per the story.

    One of the biggest, to date omissions, by ALL researchers, is bringing the “One Was Stubborn” into the Hubbard “religion” history! (I so wish Urban had asked me what other sci fi books by Hubbard most related to actual Scientology, because I’d have told him please include “One Was Stubborn”.)

    “One Was Stubborn” delivers the evidence that Hubbard’s fiction hopes could deliver the “God” powers back to a person, unlike how Hubbard’s Scientology has never delivered any ESP powers at all to Scientologists.

    “One Was Stubborn” can be found on Amazon, from time to time, as part of “Science fiction Short Stories Volume 4”,

    As part of what I consider the ultimate “care package” of books I put together and ship off to new religion scholars wishing to get their young heads around the raw writings of Hubbard, the “Hubbard on Hubbard”, the “One Was Stubborn” story is a major essential Hubbard story. It is a good raw Hubbard pulp writing worth bringing into the conclusion chapter of any book about Scientology.


      p. ii “One Was Stubborn” was written in New York early in 1940 while Ron was staying in the Knickerbocker Hotel…

    • Truthiwant

      Great post. I will certainly get this book. The more I understand Hubbard, the more I realize thet his religiion was fruit of his (diabolical) mind.

  • Jgg2012

    As for the Cruise suit, it would be fun to see Bauer expose the similarities between Scientology and Naziism.

  • Okay, here are the cartoon clips (nod to Jon Atack’s greater mind):

    “One Was Stubborn”
    page 12 of the book I cited already in this thread elsewhere. This passage shows Hubbard giving a high school cartoon like description of reality’s dependence on us believing it is real.

    “Now the Messiah is teaching us the folly of belief. So long as we believe in this world, this Universe, in machines and ills and mankind, then mankind shall survive and the world, the Universe and machines shall survive. But as soon as we lose all belief in these things then we shall be freed. We shall be freed, my friend, from the agony caused by machines and other men. And, being slaves to cogwheels, the only answer is to abolish the very matter from which those same cogwheels and these bodies are made. Well! Mater does not really exist, you know. It is only a figment of our imaginations. We believe in matter and so there is matter. That, my dear fellow, is the lgorious message you have missed by not listening or reading.”

    [above was said in criticism to the defiant stubborn hero of this Hubbard story]

  • another cartoon clip from “One Was Stubborn”

    “…But….where will everyone go?” I said. [plea by the main character the stubborn old man defying the Messiah cult man George Smiley’s agenda to transform all humanity]

    “Why, we return to our proper position as a compound idea. And there we shall have nothing that is miserable or worrying—” [said by the Smiley cult member]

    “But you won’t even exist!” [stubborn hero says]

    “Certainly not,” [Smiley cult member says]

    all from page 13

  • p. 16 above cited fiction short story by Hubbard:

    “He said, ‘My name is George Smiley. I am called the Messiah!'”

    “I must admit [hero stubborn man thinks] that I was never so close to being frightened in my life.”

  • p. 19 “…George Smiley had come from Arcton with a message….”

    As Hubbard wrote of himself, coming from elsewhere in the universe to earth, to help change earth.

    Wright’s final book’s page has Hubbard confess failure here on earth (thankfully to us, though). Wright reports Hubbard plans to do some therapeutic star circling (an OT process I know Hubbard wrote about in the “Running Program” traffic) around some star p 364 of Wright’s book: “He named a specific star he was going to circle.”

    My reading of Hubbard, he was very much into his own science fiction beliefs, is all. On top of all his spotty education about mysticism.

  • another cartoon clip, about Smiley, by Hubbard:

    “Did this George Smiley have a grudge against the whole Universe?

    “That sardonic smile of his and those terrifying eyes—…”

    p. 20

  • I was watching the PBS presentation of “Eyes on the Prize” today. It’s about the Civil Rights movement of the 50’s and 60’s. Seeing the film of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and all those who took the long hard road to full rights for all people is profound. They endured not merely discrimination, but murder, bombs and jail. The stood up, they showed up and demanded their freedom. I think I was too young, then, to understand what was going on. To understand what was at stake. I was ignorant of their struggle and ignorant of the racism of my parents.

    The protests and marches with their songs of “freedom” and “we shall overcome” were powerful, courageous and effective. I wish I had been aware enough and old enough to join them. I remember feeling in the ’70s that I had missed the age of protests against the Vietnam war. I wanted to help change things for the better.

    And then I remembered being at the demonstrations in Los Angeles at the so called “Battle of Los Angeles.” Scientology was using the images and memes of the Civil Rights movement to mobilize us members against the ‘threat’ of Larry Wollersheim’s suit. They had us singing the same songs, marching in the same way, holding candlelight vigils in the park.

    They had taken this honest desire to help, to make society a better place and turned it upside down. We didn’t know it, but we were being used. That inner pure desire to throw ourselves into the battle against injustice was turned with lies into obstructing justice and protecting criminals. We didn’t know it, and so we sang and marched and stood witness for something false and corrupt.

    I couldn’t take it. I broke down and cried. I have never felt more raped. My integrity was stolen and used and I never knew it. Whatever we view as Hubbard’s crimes, I think this is the greatest, this rape of the best part of us.

    • Trustmeonthis

      They used you, but they obviously did not take away your integrity.
      Glad you got out!

    • Gus_Cox

      Yeah, they had one big march that started in South LA (largely a black area) – singing “We Shall Overcome.” Then when some of the residents joined in, probably thinking it was a bunch of white people marching for civil rights, the “Church” touted it as a big PR win – “ooh look how everybody loves Scientology!” I was there. It was goddamned disgusting.

  • another clip from “One Was Stubborn”

    “…was I, then, the only one left whose belief in his own individuality was so great that that individuality still existed”…”

    [said by the hero stubborn old man, as all existence started erasing itself around him, but not yet fully gone]


    “…Tribbon [Hubbard’s fiction character for Gibbon the great historian] had stated that man’s one redeeming feature was his own ability to create….. And Tribbon had said that when man no longer created, then man would no longer be…”


    [the hero has an epiphany….]

    p 28

    “Certainly if anything could be saved or if anything could exist, then it must be created by myself.”

    [a kind of philosophic solipsism, see Wikipedia, and also Hubbard’s “Fear” story has a very similar solipsism horror like moment in it also. ]

  • p29

    “Now let me create a meadow…..”

    “…I closed my eyes and concentrated…. when I opened them….there was the meadow!”

    [ hero of “One Was Stubborn” creating a snippet of the universe, during this story, proving the concepts he was thinking, unlike in Scientology, where members never reach this level of mental ability]

    • Observer

      Poor ol’ Tom Cruise had to have a slave-labor crew plant a flower-filled meadow for him. That’s pretty pathetic for a Big Being.

      • Overtigo

        that’s exactly what I was thinking as I read that part too πŸ™‚ funny…why didn’t they just line up about 20 OT8s and postulate a flower filled meadow? FLUNK for no cause over mest….

  • p29

    “…I started to caper out into the tall grass…. What had happened to the sunlight?……Sunlight!” [the hero character demands there be sunlight!]

    “Sunlight!” [sunlight then appears. Just like God did demand there be light, and then there was light. Cartoon Hubbard’s story delivers the God powers, to his old stubborn hero]

  • Hubbard’s Smiley cult leader, n the “One Was Stubborn” story is suitably arrogant and evil and cartoon style domineering.

    At a later point in the story, the hero meets the only other man who is similarly stubborn, and the two stubborn men plot to create together a new world in which to live, at which point Smiley pops into the story again, to dominate the two so more.

    “Oh, no, gentlemen,” said a silkily sardonic voice…..George Smiley stnading there in his flashtex cape….”If there is anything to be built, then I shall build it. You two are the most stubborn of all….you’ve agree with each other….”

    [the evil Smiley goes on]
    “…I worked for years to sell the world the idea of nonexistence…”

    [then Smiley does a mild bit of domineering over the two stubborn men’s “sun” and puts their sun out…]


  • I got into a bit of a debate one time with a fellow who asserted the all too common assertion (without anything to back it up) that Hubbard was well-known in science fiction circles to have said something about creating a religion in order to get wealthy. I countered that George Orwell made such a statement, and in fact it exists in writing to which a source can be attached:

    “I have always thought there might be a lot of cash in starting a new religion…” – George Orwell, A Letter to Jack Common – 1938

    I forwarded that the most likely scenario is that this was simply mis-attributed to Hubbard. That fellow went away from that, defeated in that he could not provide a source connected to Hubbard that was anything more than heresay. But he did come back with something better. I wish I had written it down, maybe I should get ahold of him, but he provided acceptable evidence that Hubbard and Orwell actually knew one another to some degree, “schmoozing” at science fiction conventions and the like (he actually had the dates, locations, etc. of these conventions and suitable evidence that both Hubbard and Orwell were in attendance), and that it is entirely possible that L. Ron Hubbard lifted this from George Orwell and began repeating it (as he was sometimes known to doβ€”to be fair, as many of these writers were often known to do).
    In that way, we came to an agreement that this was probably the case.

    • Hubbard? Lifting an idea from somebody? Who could believe such a thing?

  • p38 “One Was Stubborn”

    the two stubborn men conclude Smiley’s trying to play God, and Smiley tells them:

    “I shall then give you half of it [the universe],” said George Smiley. “The lower, hotter half. …for you alone to rule.”

    …said George Smiley. “It’s a quaint idea I got out of an old book….”

    [referring of course to the bible, and to Hell]

    So, all it shows, is indeed Hubbard was cartoon mildly mock serious about his ideas. And superficial.

    but still, the story, One Was Stubborn, ought be read by serious observers, I think.

  • Harlan’s comments gave me a whole new comprehension of what Hubbard was doing when he put together the whole Dianetics/Scientology thing. Especially when I realized that basically orgone (some sort of ethereal energy) became engrams in Dianetics became thetans in early Scientology became body thetans in later Scientology.

    Hubbard seems to have been a quintessential synthesizer of esoteric ideas. I think Atack demonstrates this nicely in his comparison of Scientology with the occult ( I wonder if Hubbard ever had an original idea. He just took other people’s ideas, thoughts, and words and reworded them as his own.

    This is something I like about Atack’s mention of Joseph Campbell, who claimed that all world religions ultimately came from one “monomyth.” Then Campbell examined each world religion in the framework that they all came from a single source. Anything original in a belief system would then be explained away. In Creative Mythology, Campbell challenged readers to create their own new mythology untied to the past, which Hubbard kind of accomplished.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Okay, I had to reread Tony’s piece with the Harlan himself: Hubbard, respectful, humble, no threats, no I’ll Sue You, no rip offs, none of it. Doppleganger, maybe? If it wasn’t Harlan Ellison, I’d say no way. This in itself is a classic fantastic tale … the writer who Hubbard didn’t dump on.

    • Poison Ivy

      There are still those, even exes, who swear Hubs was a good guy. He was clearly a manipulator. If he wanted something from you, he could make you believe anything about him. What could he possibly have wanted from Harlan Ellison? I don’t know. Nothing material, certainly. Perhaps something deeper than that. Ellison was young and probably looked at Hubbard with a little bit of awe (at least, for his prolific output.) Hubbard wanted acolytes who looked at him with admiration and awe. Hubbard probably also recognized Ellison’s far superior talent and wanted to make sure he was manageable as a potential rival. Or am I too cynical?

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        maneageable sounds good. and yes, there’s that Stockholm thing.

        • Missionary Kid

          I disagree, since Ellison was never under LRH’s thrall as a supporter of Dianeticrap or $cientology, or held captive. (I’m assuming you’re talking about Stockholm Syndrome).

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Syndrome was about PI’s comment about EX’s. I was unclear (uh oh)

            your comment is So right on.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thank you, and I consider myself one of your admirers. I have a lot to learn about LRH, and I’ve forgotten a lot. I don’t remember anything about Stockholm.

      • Missionary Kid

        No, you’ve got it right.

        One wouldn’t want to piss off Ellison. He is far smarter than LRH ever was, and while he talked about how LRH was way back then, he didn’t make it a crusade. He had the capacity to make a HUGE amount of trouble for LRH.

        Probably, the Hub decided to let sleeping dogs lie, and because Ellison was never an acolyte, never tried to fair game him.

  • Truthiwant

    These are just a few thoughts about this wild subject of Scientology that I have gained over the
    last months.

    I don’t want to bore anybody, so please scroll down to the next post if you are not

    I, like many of you out there, have read all of Tony Ortega’s posts since this site started some
    months ago. I have also read many of the posts published on The Village Voice,
    and, I am sure, many of you out there, have done the same thing. I have also
    read many books on the subject, seen videos, read discussion boards, stories of
    ex. Scientologists, media reports, newspaper articles and all the rest…

    I have to admit that, having been involved in Scientology for many years, and having lost a lot
    of money, time and energy, I have a burning desire to ‘get my own back’ and make
    the Church pay for all the destruction it has caused to me and to my family. The
    lying, the need for more intensives of Auditing to sort out problems that never
    even existed, the house visits from Church members to convince me that my whole
    future was at stake if I didn’t get back on lines, to the promises of falsely
    helping and resolving my , already precarious, marriage, to insisting that the
    only way ‘out’ was to carry on up the Bridge to Total Freedom and hence a
    continuous demand for more money, whether in training, auditing, or fund
    raising, book selling or simply handing over money for ‘something’.

    Yes, I guess you have all been through this same story. What did it bring in the end? Nothing.
    Well, of course. What could it possibly have brought?

    Now, every thing seems so much more clearer. How could I have possibly got involved in this
    organization and what level of conscience and intelligence did I have to get
    conned in to buying all those services?

    Well, obviously the answer is very little.

    But, Scientology does exist and it is out there at the moment, doing its daily destruction to
    thousands of people, just as I write this post. Obviously, there are many more
    people that need to be freed from the grasp of this hideous ogre.

    But, the interesting thing is, that there are many people out there that have dedicated a
    part, or maybe the whole of their life to unmask the false face of Scientology.

    And it is because of this that the whole discussion becomes of great interest, enchanting and

    If Scientology had been some cheap ‘self help’ group that had been invented by a slightly
    eccentric writer back in the 1950’s, then, today, we would not have even known
    about its existence. But because this strange invention became something that
    involved thousands and probably tens of thousands of people in its heyday , at
    an enormous expense, then, as you all know, the consequences have been, to say the least,

    However, the whole subject has become a line of study, even at a university level. People
    that study theology have maybe written their thesis on Hubbard and Scientology.

    In a way, the whole subject has become mainstream and has , I believe now, a sort of cult
    (excuse the pun) following.

    People, now, I believe, are interested in all aspects of this religion, not just the desire to
    see the back of it.


    Because it is fascinating , incredible, mind spelling and appealing in that it lures you to
    want to know more. Yes, in the worst sense of the meaning of these words. It is
    a bit like bait on a fishing rod that attracts the fish to bite.

    If so many people became involved in this religion, then there must be, not neccessarily something
    good about it, but definitely something to write about and infact there are so
    many stories out there, whether fact or fiction, that Scientology is sort of
    becoming a present day myth.

    Hubbard only died just over a generation ago, but already there are numerous tales about him.
    True, or untrue, in the end it all has a sort of mystic attraction.

    I think there must be a divide between the abuses of the Church of Scientology, whether it was
    in Hubbard’s day, or now, with the present leader, David Miscavige’s, day, and the greater
    subject of Scientology, whether talking about its beliefs, meanings, followers
    or history.

    Both are upsetting, disturbing and destructful and should be condemned.

    However, I believe that a complete understanding of all aspects of this pseudo religion are
    paramount to be able to fully appreciate something that has, unfortunately, been
    going on for more that sixty years now.

    • I hope you won’t spend any time beating yourself up about getting sucked into this controlling cult. If you look around, you’ll see that you’re in some mighty impressive company (Paul Haggis for crying out loud). It happens to the best of us. Don’t sell yourself short. You’re doing the right thing, speaking up and speaking out, getting it off your chest, helping others to steer clear. Good on ya, mate.

      • And as I was searching into eastern religions, drug induced mysticism and other things in the late 60s and early 70s and having listened to the radio shows put on by COS, if it hadn’t been for my being fairly committed to Zen and yoga and likely due to my parents many prayers for me, i could have easily fallen down that rathole too. I suppose hearing that COS courses cost money made me more resistant too. Glad you made it out.

      • Truthiwant

        Writing down one’s thoughts has always, for anybody, I think, been a way of imparting one’s feelings. To be able to share these feelings with others is an added asset and a blessing.

        • DeElizabethan

          For sure! Also writing down experiences helps to heal.

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      I’m with you. I think WE’RE with you.

      • Overtigo

        Roger that πŸ˜‰

      • BuryTheNuts2


    • Captain Howdy

      You’re doing great. Watch this and the secret path to enlightenment will all be revealed.Seriously though if existence is about one thing it’s about learning from your mistakes.

      • Truthiwant

        Good one!!

    • Missionary Kid

      Make yourself Pope and grant yourself absolution.

      There’s many people here that can point you in the right direction because they’ve been where you’re at.

  • Sherbet

    This is completely off subject, but I’ve been watching a 1975 TV show with Sal Mineo. And he’s the spittin’ image of Tommy Davis. Just found it amusing.

    • Sidney18511

      Wasn’t Sal murdered? He was a good looking dude in his day. What movie?

      • SP ‘Onage

        Yeah, he was stabbed in the heart. I have a relative who went to Hollywood High School with him. He was a good looking guy, but not in his year book picture.

      • Sherbet

        Actually, it’s from a collection of the old Ellery Queen TV show, with Jim Hutton.

    • Captain Howdy

      Don’t tell Tommy that, Sal Mineo was gay ! Tommy might get angry, REAL ANGRY !

      • Sandy

        Cap’t – say it ain’t so! I had just a crush on Sal when I was a wee one …

        • Captain Howdy

          He came out of the closet in the late 60’s and he was one of the first actors to do so, and his murder had nothing to do with his sexuality, as rumored. It was a robbery .

      • Overtigo

        LOL….maybe we read him a bedtime story to calm his ass down…say this??

      • Bella Legosi

        There are people out there that feel Sal was not gay, at the time of his death he was to play a gay character. This was before Brokeback Mountain and Will and Grace. Back then even playing a homosexual in Hollywood ( especially a homosexual character who is NOT the villain or villainous) automatically made you gay in the tabloids eyes and in the public’s eyes as well. Couple that with the fact he wasn’t the star he used to be and bam…..Sal Mineo is gay, that is why he was stabbed in the heart! It sells rags more then “Supporting actor from ‘Rebel Without a Cause Found Dead”

        • Captain Howdy

          He publicly admitted to being gay, which took a lot of courage at the time he did it.

          • Bella Legosi

            I stand corrected then sir….thank you for the link……such a loss he could have been one of the greats…. πŸ™‚

      • Sherbet

        In one scene, Mineo was shouting, and I nearly expected John Sweeney to enter the frame to holler back.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        And then Snap!, he might get over it.

  • Dean Fox

    Shame about the pull out of the interview, very telling.

    Please let Cruise “go all the way” so we can get some serious sauce. Seems like the defence has being doing their homework. The church of scientology angle will be big with this one.

  • Poison Ivy

    “…the first thing Jon asked us was what the hell we were doing reading a 1969 copy of Parents magazine” Nearly gave me a heart attack, Tony! We won’t soon be hearing the pitter patter of little Thetan feet in the Bunker, will we?

  • Bella Legosi

    It seems that Hub had a serious lust for money and fame before pulling Dianetics and Scientology outta his ass. It seems these desires have implanted or even been absorbed by the church proper. Now, what does money haveto do with spiritual develppment and should a “religion” charge its followers for attaining enlightenment or salvation? The catholic church did so and what followwd was a reformation that killed an harmed thousends on both sides. When I ask a erson why not join Scientology or even check it out there are always two general responses
    1. Laughter followed by some witty quip about Zenu or couch jumpingTom Cruise
    2. They say theycan not afford it.
    I haveto say when finances become a factor in your relogious development there is something most definately wrong about said religion

    • Bella Legosi

      Sorry re posted this when I thought I deleted the original working from my phone πŸ™

      • Missionary Kid

        Heck, I agree. No apology necessary.

  • Bella Legosi

    Also any belief system or religion that espouses the notion that you or humanity as a whole was created or born “flawed” (original sin) and that system or religion is the “one right way to live” in order to become elevated or “perfect” is a system NOT for the betterment of ones self or humanity as a whole, but only benefits the religious system and those who hold power in those systems. I have serious issues with these assumptions and is why I have healthy suspicion of nearly all religions. Original sin (or derivatives of it) coupled with a group that tells humanity, “this is the right way to live. Thru US is your only salvation or ‘way to happiness'” are two of the oldest most destructive lies perpetrated on mankind and has made 90% of us at some point “kool aid” drinkers.

    • Overtigo

      yep…you’re fuckin’ a, Bella.

      I was thinking about this exact issue the other day, while seething with hatred at the cos.

      I mean, it’s real easy to blame this all on Hubbard, isn’t it-he was the asshole that created this vile brainwashing enslavement tool in the first place, right?

      but, wait a minute-a part of the equation is missing here-why did thousands of people jump on board?????

      What is it about us, that makes us want to believe and follow? Not just LRH’s shit, I mean ALL OF IT. To me, this is the heart of the matter. Hubbard could not have done what he did without somebody willing to fill in the other side of the deal. And it’s been happening on down through the centuries. What’s wrong with us humans? Oh, wait..that’s right..we all got nuked and blown up in volcanoes, Incident II and all..sorry, I forgot ; )

      I got off cheap-in and out….and I will never drink somebody’s kool-aid again.


      • Overtigo

        Cain had a great quip about this sentiment the other day, didn’t he?

        I like God, I just don’t like his fan clubs.

        sums it right up for me.

        • Peter

          That quote is a ripoff from Gandhi. The actual quote is: “I like your Christ; I don’t care much for your Christians.”

          • Overtigo

            πŸ™‚ it’s good no matter who said it, brother.

            • Peter

              No argument there. But I always like to see the original…and the originator of a quote. And Gandhi carries a bit more clout. πŸ™‚

            • Overtigo


          • TendonProblem

            I don’t mind Jesus, but I don’t like his dad.

      • Bella Legosi

        Good for you man! My theory is the big secret is that humanity is not inherently flawed or born evil. I do believe it takes a lot more faith to believe THAT then most if not all creation myths out there today and in the past. I also believe that if people woke up to that possibility humanity would truly blossom. There would be no need for crazy stuff like Zenu, Kolon, jihad. It wouldn’t be a true Utopia but a lot of the evil violence done in history and even the present would have no reason to exist. mmmh call me crazy but that is what I think.

        CoS to me is a testament in mass insanity that is actually paid for. lol Thank God there are people like Tony out there and WWP!

  • SP ‘Onage

    Tony, you lucky dog, you got to go inside the Lost Aztec Temple of Mars, in Los Angeles. I’ve seen the outside, but what that I’d give to see Harlan’s sci-fi memorabilia and robot collection.

    Ellison has one of the most creative brains on this planet. It must have been an honor to meet and interview him.

    I wonder if he has ever discussed scientology with Neil Gaiman?

    Anyway, if anybody has a Kindle Prime account you can watch for free, Ellison’s (Gaiman is in it) 2008 documentary film “Dreams with Sharp Teeth.”

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Can’t like enuff!

      • SP ‘Onage


  • HumanistG

    ALL major world religions are interested in money

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Best Post Ever in all things scientological. Best comment though in this smart thread has to be JohnP’s: “Holy F*ckn Cow!”

    • SP Wogsy


  • Strangely enough, I have yet to see a Scientologist level an attack of any kind at Ellison, and I will not do so myself because I genuinely like the man.
    I find myself scouring tech and policy seeking anything at all about this, to no avail.
    Perhaps Hubbard himself told Ellison he was “immune?” It’s an interesting line of inquiry.

    • Captain Howdy

      While you’re scouring tech and policy see if you can find the map to King Solomon’s Mines or at least a map to public bathrooms in the Boston metro area, thanks.

      • May I ask what I have done to cause you to dislike and attack me?

        • Captain Howdy

          If you have to ask you wouldn’t understand anyway. I won’t “attack” you anymore. Good luck.

          • I’d be amazed if you actually know what I will or won’t understand before I’ve even seen or heard it. I don’t even know that, and I’m me. Patronizing is as much an attack as sarcasm.
            I really would like to know. Have I been rude to you in some way? Did I insult you? I have put great effort into being as respectful as I possibly could in voicing a dissenting opinion here on this board. I have put out of my mind every thought installed in it that coming here would be met with nothing but hatred and suppression. So far you’ve been validating all those apprehensions.

            • Captain Howdy

              “I have put out of my mind every thought installed in it that coming here would be met with nothing but hatred and suppression.”

              You mean like if I went to Marty’s blog and said that LRH was an inveterate liar and the Tech was the musings of a madman/conman ?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              it’s like telling Tea Party fans that science is valid. the subject matter of the argument is … well, u know. but I will say john is polite. ok, back to TV.

            • No. Let me clarify.

              You are no doubt aware of Scientology Ethics and SP doctrine, right? In it, one is told that people who oppose Scientology are basically the scum of the Earth. A Scientologist doesn’t communicate with these people, namely because the idea is that communication would be entirely useless and potentially harmful. I’m not sure how true that is. It might be completely true, that talking with an anti-Scientologist will only produce negative results. I happen to think that out of dissent, agreements are discovered. Maybe I’m wrong.

              There is a gap between Scientologists and non/anti-Scientologists. I’m interested in seeing that gap reduced. In coming here, I had hoped to find the same thing. So far, rather than finding that, I have been met with ad hominem attacks, sarcasm, patronizing, I’ve been insulted, demeaned and outright dismissed.

              Sure, Marty might blow you off, ban you, whatever. I’m not Marty Rathbun. If he doesn’t want to close the gap, that’s fine. If you aren’t interested in that, fine.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              That “gap” is about 3 Billion to a few thousand. something to ponder.

            • I’m talking about a gap in understanding, not in population. How accurately each side, as a whole, views the other.

            • Sidney18511

              John, with so much factual information available that Hubbard was nothing but a con man, and a nasty one at that, it’s like you are trying to convince Neil Armstrong that the moon is made of cheese. Personally I look at an LRH supporter as I would a person on fire. My first instinct would be to throw a bucket of water on them, get them to drop and roll and put out those flames and it is amazing to realize that what a true believer would do is run away from help as fast as they could. All the while burning and blazing and quoting LRH..

            • Overtigo

              “But I want to understand where this is coming from, what is generating
              the negativity that is being directed at me. Is it something I did, or
              is it just leveled at all Scientologists broadly?”

              Dude….you can’t convince anyone here that you are unaware of where “this” is coming from. At least half the people posting here are probably exes who have gone through a life shattering ordeal because of their experiences with LRH “tech”.

              You really believe that they want to hear it defended? I sincerely doubt it. Maybe it’s nothing YOU did, it’s just that alot of us have heard, and witnessed firsthand, the flip side of the argument and come to the logical, reasoned conclusion that it’s BULLSHIT. We don’t need that viewpoint anymore. At least I don’t, I can’t really speak for anyone else, sorry.

              It’s not like they decided that they don’t like a certain restaurant anymore….some of these fine folks wasted 20-40 years on this stuff. It’s kind of a big deal. Really, what did you expect?

              Would you go to a burn ward and play with a blowtorch, asking the patients “Wow, you don’t like this stuff, huh? How come? It’s really pretty groovy!”

              Plus, you’re all “covert hostility” anyway. No offence, but …yeah. Since I can’t truly believe that you are oblivious to the above points-as you seem intelligent, I am inclined to conclude that your real intent is to hijack these threads and turn them into flame wars, to distract from the topic at hand. Which you have succeeded here, to a small degree, haven’t ya? πŸ˜‰

              Oh, and there is no question of where the inaccuracies lie in regards to each side’s “view” of the other. Scientologists “view” of the wog world is dictated by “source” and any variance from that is an out-ethics deal. LRH rules, designed to keep the devotees mired in the quicksand.

              The majority of the wog world, on the other hand, has no view about Scientology, and couldn’t care less about it.

              I don’t mean any disrespect to you, man-just some honest observations from a newbie poster here.

            • grundoon

              You might not have been here long enough to notice that Captain Howdy directs negativity at just about everyone everywhere. On his worst day, he’s still better company (and less dangerous to your spiritual well-being) than your average IAS Reg, MAA, RTC Rep, or Sea Org recruiter. At the Underground Bunker, unlike some cults we’ve heard of, you aren’t expected to confine your personality to the inside of an auditing room.

            • 0tessa

              Please stop acting the injured innocent.

            • grundoon

              1. How many people comment here semi-regularly? Maybe 100?

              2. How many people have been anything other than polite to you? Maybe 5?
              3. Is it ok to sweep up everyone else here in a broad generalization based on a handful?

              4. At a bar or shopping mall or movie theater, greet the next 100 people you see and engage them in a little give-and-take about religious and social issues. Then come back and let us know if anyone was cranky or unwelcoming. It would be fun to see how we stack up against 100 random strangers.

        • It is neither “accusative sarcasm” nor a “genuine request” but simply throwaway humor. Your sense of humor seems to have been badly eroded by your time inside.

      • SP ‘Onage


    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Harlan was a whippersnapper from boring, tight assed Midwest USA and aKool eccentric, brilliant brain set free in the midst of likewise writers, but older, established characters. He was not a peer and Hub had not ripped him off , thereby not needing to decimate him in the sci way later on. Hubbard was focused on Survive! as a person with deteriorating mental issues in an era of throwaway victims.

      Imo, hubbard might have been a Harlan Ellison equal if not for his mental illness and aversion to help.

      • Harlan has been apparently at total liberty to discuss Hubbard and Scientology without fear of reprisal for quite some time. As strange as it sounds, it actually does appear to be the case that he has some level of immunity of some kind. He’s claimed this for a long time, too. Even stranger, nobody from the Church produces a statement of denial or anything.

        Here he discusses the science fiction writer’s circle with Robin Williams:

    • SP ‘Onage

      I know scientology wouldn’t dare attack Mr. Ellison now, due to L. Ron Hubbard’s Writers of the Future Contest. The science fiction community would not appreciate it if they did. It would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

    • You won’t “attack” him… because you like him. So I take it your usual response to anything that looks critical of Hubbard is, indeed, to attack.

      You keep complaining about feeling “attacked” on this board. I definitely have problems with most of your posts. And it is not because you identify as a Scientologist. It is because of the substance of your posts, and this is only one example.

      If you think Ellison is wrong about something, then say what it is. Go ahead and criticize anything you think you have good reason to criticize, with reasoned argument and evidence. This is not “attacking” someone. Argument is not ipso facto an attack. Neither is humor. Just because you like someone, that does not mean they are above criticism. And just because you don’t happen to like someone, that does not mean it’s okay to attack them.

      • Okay, now please be specific: why is it that you have taken one post in which I say, offhand, that I have no intentions of attacking Ellison (I say this because it is apparently the expected reaction from the non-Scn point of view, I say I will not because I want to dispense with any such expectations) and then painted me broadly as someone who attacks anything critical of Hubbard as a usual response?
        And the substance of my posts, will you please give me an example of something I have said that you specifically have a problem with?

        • I guess that’s too much to ask.
          Well, I think it’s been made abundantly clear that I’m not going to get anywhere discussing things with the people of this board, and that I’m not welcome here. I feel as though I’ve given it a good go, I’ve been as respectful as I could only to find that it doesn’t matter.
          I’m not leaving with anger or negative feelings, I’m leaving before those feelings come into being, and they will with the direction this is heading.
          Sometimes one just has to cut losses and quit while still ahead.

          • 1subgenius

            I have no idea who you are or what this is about, but already I don’t like you.
            I predict you will make this a long drawn out drama filled exit. And then you won’t leave.
            Just go. Yes, you’re ahead.

          • EnthralledObserver

            You can go back and forth with me all day, any day you like. I might not agree, but will never run away from a good discussion. I hate that Marty banned me for no good reason than he disagrees with my arguments, or doesn’t want any of his flock exposed to it, so if you are game, so am I.

          • sugarplumfairy

            If you’re here to convince anybody of the value of anything hubbard or co$, then you’re definitely spinning your wheels.. But most folks here love a good fray, so I hope you stay..

  • Guest


    I “came” across an old photo of Hubbard….. if anybody can come up with something better I’ll put it on my blog…. my suggestion:

    “Before the e-meter and tomatoes a young Ron Hubbard experimented with numerous contraptions looking for those pesky thetans”

    • I tried to delete this as disqus wouldn’t upload my pic…..

      this second attempt wouldn’t upload either so here’s a tinygrab pic link of my mini masterpiece

    • SandiCorrena

      Before the e-meter and the tomatoes L-Ron’s need for an effective thetan-ater involved many contraptions; seemingly his thetans were eating him alive!

    • Overtigo

      “Boy…those registrars’ll never be able to sell this high dollar heap of crap…gotta build something cheaper…hey buddy, what’d ya do with those soup cans from lunch?

    • grundoon

      Well done! I like #1 and #4.

    • Truthiwant

      What about ‘Coiffure Chez Ron. Shampoo and set. Only $2000.’

  • But he was a very outgoing, garrulous guy, and he said to Ron, you ought to start a religion!

    So L. Ron Hubbard didn’t even come up with THAT idea, either.

  • If leaving Scientology is like peeling the layers of an onion, learning about it is the reverse. Just when I think I’ve really got to the heart of it posts and comments like these add a whole new complexion. What insanity!

  • Roger Larsson

    If Hubbard had loved everyone he could love he had lived happy with his first wife and with the pennies he made as a science-fiction writer and he had died peacefully instead of in horror for what he had done.

    His greed for money, power and fame screwed up his and many others lives.

  • About 2 years after Lloyd Eshbach’s OVER MY SHOULDER was published I met Lloyd at a convention and had a chance to talk with him at length. One of the points I asked about was this very story, and he told me the story again exactly as you related here. Lloyd was a very open and direct person, completely unconcerned with celebrity or the pretension of other people. My opinion of him was that If Lloyd Eshbach told you something you could be 100% certain that it was so. And Lloyd Eshbach told me that he was there and heard Hubbard make that statement directly. I believed him then and still do. Likewise, Harlan Ellison is completely reliable in such matters. If Harlan says it’s so, you can cash in your pension and bet it all on him. Additionally, it’s been well known in the community of long-time science fiction fans and professionals that Hubbard did indeed make that comment. Several people there heard him say it and the story began circulating soon thereafter. In the SF community, no one has ever been shocked that Hubbard *made* the comment since he obviously proved that it was quite true. Hubbard got personally rich beyond his wildest dreams and his Church of Scientology is apparently still raking in the loot. What has amused people in the SF world ever since 1950 is that Hubbard’s Scientology followers so fanatically *deny* that he said it; evidently under the impression that if the story is true then that somehow lessens the validity of their “religion”. Like many who subsume their critical judgement in their religious beliefs they fail to understand that their fanatical denial of the incident is the only thing that actually keeps the story alive. It certainly isn’t that story that makes Hubbard’s invented religion look suspect; it’s the glaring lack of any scientific underpinning, the silly, illogical amateur psycho-babble of Hubbard’s original article on Dianetics, and the brazen greed of COS leaders coupled with their abuse of their lowly followers that brings most us us to conclude that Scientology is an utter scam from start to finish. But not that simple story.

    One additional point; whoever that film director was who egged Ellison into relating that story at that party obviously knew that Julia Migenes-Johnson was also present and would react violently. To stage such an exhibition and risk others getting injured just to provide entertainment at a party is contemptible, and that film director – whoever he was – was an ass. –Curt Phillips

  • dbloch7986

    I’d love to have a chat with Karin. I’ll make some coffee and tea and bring some scones.

  • All posters, there is a guy that you converse with on a regular basis by the name of The Dark Avenger. Here is an excerpt of how sick and twisted he is from This guy is a world class stalker and scum bag.

    Who cares?

    You do, Den-Den.

    The fact of the matter is you stalked his kids’ Facebook account for information on him.

    If his adult child is foolish enough to put something of Facebook for all the world to see, that’s not my fault.

    It doesn’t matter if his kids are older than 18 yrs old. It doesn’t matter what they said on their Facebook pages.

    Sure it does, Den-Den. It demonstrates what an ass your little buddy was to his child.

    >None of that justifies stalking them so can report back personal
    information on your blog and this blog about Frank D. and what his kids have to say about anything, you sick predator moron.

    Sorry, Den-Den, but I don’t give a flying fig what you think. Here I am, a sick predator moron, whom you feel compelled on your vacation to engage with instead of spending time with your lovely wife.

    See you around, cowboi.

    • AstroLadyBoy

      You made your point: you don’t like him for reasons a), b), and c). Leave it be now, because your posts on various Bunker blogs are spamming up the threads. Additionally, your issues with him are totally irrelevant to this blog and his posts here, so please take it elsewhere.

  • He stalks facebook, linkedin, calls homes, etc.. of people who don’t believe the same shit he believes. He is an absolute scum bag. Just click on his name and take a look at his posts. Never on topic I might add. I hope this helps you in future discussions with this scum bag. He really needs a jalopy sandwich by the moderator. JALLOPY AND BANDHAMMER BABY

  • Alice Smith

    Jon Atack, your confront on this subject is AMAZING. Can’t wait to read your book. All library copies have been destroyed, which I guess ends up up being to your advantage? Just finishing Wright’s book now.

  • GrandEclectus

    Incredible again! Harlan Ellison, Roddy McDowell, crazed scion divas! Wow and wow. Great stuff here.

  • Karen Eckhoff

    The problem with becoming a religion is that religions don’t charge for enlightenment, instead there is the constant begging for donations or tithes and selling of trinkets, so he was always angling toward bring a cult leader, with the inherent removal from society and complete monetary immersion. So the real question is, did he contemplate the money making differences between religion and cult early on, and see that cult was the way to go? Or is it just inevitable a megalomaniac would end up more at home with a religion where he is god, rather than one where adherents find solace in a higher power?