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Marty Rathbun: Scientology’s Secret Agreement With Joan Wood to Change Lisa McPherson’s Cause of Death

Mark Bunker has uploaded to YouTube a 16-minute interview he did with former high-ranking Scientology executive Marty Rathbun for his movie Knowledge Report. It contains more details of the news that rocked Scientology this week: In attorney Ken Dandar’s federal lawsuit, Rathbun is alleging that the church spent $30 million fighting the criminal investigation of Lisa McPherson’s death, including an operation to improperly influence county medical examiner Joan Wood.

McPherson was a troubled church member who had a mental breakdown in 1995 and then was taken to be cared for at Scientology’s headquarters at the Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, Florida. Seventeen days later, she was rushed to the hospital and died on the way. Scientology was then the subject of a criminal investigation which relied in part on the death certificate that Wood issued. Wood later changed the cause of McPherson’s death from “undetermined” to “accident” in 2000, which stopped the state’s criminal investigation of Scientology in its tracks. In Bunker’s interview, Rathbun talks about how the church applied pressure to convince Wood to make that change.

We’ve made a decision at The Underground Bunker not to post Bunker’s video at this time. Unlike Rathbun’s explosive deposition, the YouTube video is not a privileged court document. However, you can easily find the video yourself at, and we encourage you to watch it and discuss it here.

In his deposition for Ken Dandar’s federal lawsuit, Rathbun said that the church had spent millions to influence judges who were handling the McPherson family lawsuit against the church. Rathbun also alleged that Scientology had tried to sway Wood through her attorney, Jeffrey Goodis. (Goodis denied the allegation.)

Our legal advisor, Scott Pilutik, noted that Rathbun’s deposition was somewhat scattered. But in his video interview with Mark Bunker, Rathbun goes into more detail and seems more methodical about laying out the church operation to convince Wood to change the cause of death.

Near the end of the segment, Rathbun says, “She agrees she’s going to do it, but she wants a release in exchange, and that’s the smoking gun. And [Scientology leader] Dave Miscavige had to sign it himself, I’m pretty sure. He certainly delivered it himself…Only then did she make the change on the death certificate.”

Rathbun appears to be alleging that in a quid pro quo, Wood agreed to change the cause of death in return for a guarantee from the church that it would not hold her legally liable. It’s a shocking allegation of impropriety. (Wood died in 2011.)

Meanwhile, Scientology’s attorneys who are being sued by Dandar filed a motion on Friday which you can see below. It accuses Dandar of extortion, and asks the court to strike Rathbun’s deposition from the record, saying that it was irrelevant to what the federal lawsuit is about.

As we wrote when Dandar first filed his lawsuit, the facts behind it are dauntingly complex. But in a nutshell, Dandar is complaining that his civil rights have been trampled by the way Scientology, he claims, has manipulated Florida’s state court system. Dandar filed suit against Scientology and two of its attorneys, Wally Pope and Robert V. Potter Jr., and those attorneys are now complaining that Dandar improperly tried to widen the scope of his suit by submitting Marty Rathbun’s deposition.

“The ‘reply’ brief is not a reply brief at all, but seeks to introduce new factual allegations, new theories, and new legal arguments not made or addressed in either the moving papers or even the complaint,” Pope and Potter argue. At the end of their motion, they attach an e-mail in which Dandar notified them on Wednesday that he would be filing Rathbun’s deposition and offered to settle the case (on favorable terms to Dandar). Pope and Potter characterize this as an extortion attempt.

On Monday, a hearing will be held in the court of Judge Virginia Hernandez Covington, and we’ll be interested to see if Rathbun’s testimony is allowed to remain in the court file. Dandar has confirmed to us that he has also deposed another former Scientology executive, Mike Rinder, and that testimony contains further explosive allegations about Scientology’s cover-up of the McPherson matter.

With major media now paying attention to this strange lawsuit, the action only seems to be starting to heat up.

Here’s the motion to strike from Scientology’s attorneys:

Wally Pope Motion to Strike



On Sundays, we love to reveal to you the latest Scientology fundraising mailers that have reached us from our tipsters. This week, we start to get our holiday cheer on!

But first, we have one of the strangest fliers we’ve seen in a while. We are looking forward to your thoughts on exactly what is going on here…

The church continues its series looking at the people still hanging in there as Scientology limps through its latest crises…

We’re always amazed that Scientology promotes Christmas in such a big way. After all, when your founder is known for saying “There was no Christ,” you’d think it would make the church a little more shy about jumping on the Jesus-Birthday industry…

And where better to celebrate the birthday of nonexistent JC than on the cruise ship Freewinds!

Thanks once again to our great tipsters. Keep those mailers coming!

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  • mooki

    who are those other people on the poster w/ Billy Sheehan?

    • Slappy

      Uh … singers and musicians?

    • deElizabethan

      Rob Meister was playing all last year on occasion at Flag. Some events with musical groups, occasional Sunday service or outside by the pool. Nice guy and talented.

  • sugarplumfairy32

    Goodis sold himself short.. Surely he could have done better than Super Bowl tickets, cuff links and a hug from john travolta???

    • Yea, he should have held out for a happy ending massage from JT.

      • Snigger!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Ending Massage, Cap? Is That what the first flyer is referring to when it promotes: “Dining and Drilling” ?

        • When I saw that I was going to come up with this:

          The Dining and Drilling Special….. also known as ‘The Travolta’……

    • Jorge Diaz

      No, he got a kiss and a blow, too. But that was later. 😉
      Oh, and a bottle of scotch whiskey [imported from Scotland]; plus a half a dozen Egyptian cotton shirts, and a one-way ticket to the “Freewinds” from Miscavige, himself, behind the curtains.

  • It looks like Marty has answered pretty completely what was done to Joan Wood to get her to change her cause of death for Lisa McPherson.

    Thank you, Marty.

    There are some other questions which would be nice for you to answer, too.


    • Marty has a word on his blog today for the “nattering spectators in cyberspace”.

      By by the way, I hear there is some natter in cyberspace as to “it is about time”. For the nattering spectators, and further testimony to the heat index on this one, I disclosed all of this to the Tampa Bay Times nearly three years ago – apparently, it was too hot for them to handle.

      You have a blog, Marty, on which you post self-congratulatory praises for your gushing sycophants 4 to 5 times per week. If this was so “hot” why didn’t you post it there where you were in complete control of its publication?

      This outpoint will never be addressed by Marty because he can not engage in open debate, or even open dialogue, on the Internet. Like David Miscavige, Marty can not afford to appear in places where he is not in complete control.

      Such is the fate of criminals, and ideologues, with too much to hide.


      • By the way he hears some natter in cyberspace????
        Yeah, OK.
        Natter this Marty.
        Suck it!

      • Trogg

        It’s a sure bet the cult employed similar tactics against IRS Commissioner Fred Goldberg. Perhaps Marty also revealed this in his interview with the SP Times three years ago, but The Times censored his comments, and he never got around to mentioning it on his blog, either.

        And speaking of the SP Times, where are Childs and Tobin? It’s quite unlike them to be MIA when something of this magnitude breaks loose. Unless the newspaper’s legal department is calling the shots.

        • Yes, that’s actually another question Marty has failed to answer after more than 8 years of being out of the Church.

          What was done with the information collected against IRS executives from the “noisy investigations” conducted outside of IRS headquarters for months, and maybe even years, prior to the “IRS win”?

          Was that information used against Fred Goldberg, or any other government official, to gain tax exempt status for the Church of Scientology, and all of its octopus corporations under it?

          Now, of course, blackmailing senior government officials to gain favorable tax rulings is of course an “overt felony”, so I can understand why Marty and Mike and Dave would not answer that one – even on Marty’s blog.


    • He was “only following orders.”

      • Tory Christman

        :::sigh::: My biggest upset w/ this is that Marty “Chats” about how they “put this together” to actually manipulate people re the Lisa McPherson case. I still don’t think he GETS how much what HE did (with David Miscavige and whomever else did it) Literally destroyed some lives…not to mention seemingly feeling NOTHING re Lisa. He doesn’t seem like an “emotional” guy—but I still find that hard to hear. I think the DAY he Honestly GETS what HE did–despite “orders”—it’ll truly open up. (I think he still sees it sort of like in “A Few Good Men” at the end where the two military guys are stripped of their ranks, after killing Willy due to orders by Jack Nickleson. The one guy says: “Why? What did we do wrong? We were just following orders”. His pal says: “Yes we did. We were hired to protect. We didn’t protect WIlly”. Marty and matter the “orders”…didn’t protect Lisa. PERIOD.<3

        • Tory Christman

          PS: I think he’s getting there..inch by inch…and that’s OK. It’s just as long as one follows the “I was told to do____” without taking responsibility for what they ACTUALLY did…it will still always be a “story” w/out the true emotions one would expect connected w/ s/t this deep. My opinion, only. <3 I'm still glad to hear what he's said. He's saying more than anyone else…which is good. And yes, it was written in the Times..but written and spoken are two *totally* different media. Please keep peeling the onion on this one. Keep the door open: It's easy to rag on peeps however history does repeat itself and history has shown diving on peeps only shuts the door.—there IS more, and we'd all love to hear it. Tick Tock….Tick Tock…..<3

          • I think Marty Rathbun is having a problem defending scientology and at the same time trying to openly speak out against the errors caused by the abuse of what he is still part of. If he were like you, Tory, he would not have this double-value opinion. This is the real reason that I have great difficulty in appreciating the independent groups. Apart from being hypocritical and superficial, I find that they are still trying to hide something from themselves.

            • sugarplumfairy32

              Tory’s right, tho.. Hurtful criticism will only slam the door shut.. We want it open.. wide..

            • Tory Christman

              truthiwant1….I think you’re right on part of it (the 1st part) and I disagree w/ you on the 2nd. Yes, he’s no doubt going to have difficulty no matter what he’s trying to do. I say God Bless he’s speaking at all re this extremely awful situation that NEEDS to be brought out into daylight—fully. He would never be like me, nor me like him…and that’s just the way it is. I refused to do a lot of their BS early on, and I think it all began when my Mom insisted I get back on my medication for Epilepsy. IT MADE ME FIGHT FOR ME, and Others, despite this organization, and their insanities.

              Calling the indies names helps no one. They are people who left the abusive Cult and find happiness together. Who are we to tell them what they should and shouldn’t believe, as long as they are not hurting others? I know this may not be popular amongst many….but I lost *that* game years ago, and I’m fine w/ it. I’d rather say how I Honestly feel than be popular.

              If you *really* think about it: We could stand outside McDonald’s and picket there–and probably save more lives than picking on the indies. At least they’re helping each other get out, and once out they are then free to read, look, listen…and possibly change their minds. It’s up to them. I’m against the abuses of Scientology, (Which yeah–for me IS a lot of it)…but as long as peeps aren’t harming others, and they lay off young kids…they’re grown adults: They can do what they want. 🙂 Peace.

        • tetloj

          Nice observation on the “A Few Good Men”, Tory.

          • Tory Christman

            Thanks, tetloj…I thought it seemed appropriate. I love that movie, too.

            • Tory, I agree with you and firstly I didn’t want to appear to compare you to Rathbun. I’ve seen all your videos so I know where you’re coming from.

              Certainly the indipendent groups should be left to do what they like as long as they are not doing any harm to anyone. I criticize them probably because they cling on to Hubbard as if he had done no wrong whereas it is quite obvious that most of the hurting and harming stems from Hubbard’s days.

        • Thing I learned from years of watching ‘Law and Order’ reruns: sometimes you cut the doer some slack, maybe even a whole shitload of slack, in order to get the guy who PAID him!

          ’til next time;

          • Tory Christman

            Good point, wynot. Seeing various people torn apart on the Net has truly taught me the meaning of this: “Walk a mile in someone’s shoes before you criticize him” I grew up w/ a VERY critical Mother (once my Dad died, as she turned into an alcoholic and super critical of most people, certainly me). I know the drill, and it taught me that BS helps this many people: 0 People can say: “Oh I’m teaching him” but the truth is: Think of ANY good teachers that really helped you. Were they scathing… making you wrong? No. Empathy, kindness—-try to flow like music. That’s why we love music so much—it flows. 🙂 Love to ALL Tory/Magoo


    Well, they did actually minimize the use of the word Christmas.

    • Observer

      They may not use the word, but they use all the traditional trappings and decorations.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        wait, you mean it’s a trap? haha Flag each year has Christmas decor, music and food of different countries, each in different areas of the base. It is one of the few aesthetic and cultural promotions that are done is fine taste. Don’t know if they still do that, or if it’s become like everything else: It’s free entry but only if you’ve donated $10 million or more to the IAS.
        But as for the intention and motivations of Christmas in scientology, it’s same old same old. Staff at least know with total certainty that holidays are for wogs and bums.

        • victoria

          Well, good little scns never buy wog db gifts for eachother, “oh look honey i donated fifty thousand to the ias so finally that ugly ethics cycle you are on will disappear!”

  • Could it be that the coerced change of cause of death is sufficient to reopen the entire criminal case against Scientology? How nice to see DM being sucked back into the vortex of litigation that Scientology so often uses to their advantage. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    • One can only hope.
      Davey is having a rough weekend.
      mmmmmmmmmm Bummer………NOT!

  • ” Hey my sweet 2d, how about some dinner and drilling this Thursday around six ? “

    • deElizabethan


    • Helmuth, speaking for Boskone

      Drilling for oiliness?

      • Guest

        Or oily for drillingness??

  • Boson Stark

    Become a Scientologist and replace those thought balloons with:
    I was a clam?
    KSW and a fixed, dedicated glare.
    I’ve found all the answers in one will-that-be-cash-check-or-credit-card place.
    Take out $50,000 loan for trip to Flag!

    Now, I’m off to watch the Martywood video.

  • In spite of the wonderful technology they have, knowing how to handle suppression, knowing how to deal with any situation, and on top of that, having the ‘greatest’ and ‘most able’ scientologists on the planet chosen to handle this story, in the end it boils down to handing over money. And lots of it.
    Oh my God, and people still think that this is a group that is out there to save the world?

  • Pingback: Miscavige’s Hot Smoking Gun | Moving On Up a Little Higher()

  • KimberlyB

    It just keeps getting better & better! Scientology’s blasphemous promotion of holidays & Christmas is very offensive to me, as like Tony said, LRH claimed JC never existed.

    • It is probably because they can mass promote holiday gift cards for security checks to OT’s.
      It always about the money! They don’t even bother to acknowledge the contraditions.
      Cuz I said so. So there. It is so!
      Blah, Blah. pffffffffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

      • Loving greetings Denise! I looked quite swift in me *navy whites* when I was on the Freewinds as a music recordist with Gold for the 1st Anniversary cruise…..into outpoints….NOW the World is waking up & the LIES cannot be maintained anymore!! 2cheZ DM 1Luv* & put video on youtube!!

        • Hi there Tommy:) I just looked at the the DVD label and the video is from Christmas time in 1989. If you were in the dining room then with the people singing the Christmas carols I might have you on the video.

    • I have a private two or so hour video that I took of different parts of the Freewinds I’m guessing around 20 years ago. They had Sea Org staff in the dining rooms for paying public all dressed up and singing Christmas carrols. It looked joyous and like something out of a Norman Rockwell or Thomas Kincade painting.

      Oh dear but how disingenuous I now realize that was.

      As a paying public who was there with my spouse and little daughter I thought it was special then. Now I look at it and such a sadness creeps in as I think of all of the abuse so many staff got on what is in effect a prison ship for many. And so much of that is so well hidden from the paying public.

      If I knew how to do it I’d probably make most of that video public as it shows lots of the inside of the Freewinds and the goings on then.

      • You MUST do this.

      • Mrs Libnish

        What medium is it on?

        • Original copies on VHS tapes. I also made DVDs of them.

      • Sandy

        Denise – perhaps if you give that video to Tony, he’ll know what to do …

        • Or send it to me. I could use it.

          • Mark, it was on two VHS tapes which I converted to DVDs. I am glad to let you borrow and even use most of it. I just don’t want the parts with my daughter in it being used. Give me a call Mark and we can go over. Same number as when you were here.

            • Copy them before you send them. To be safe.

            • Espiando

              Mark Bunker and Denise Brennan hatching up a scheme…when the OG get together, the walls of Hemet start to shake. Popcorn’s at the ready.

          • That would be rather sweet, no?
            This person, if not a troll, must be persuaded to contibute this important historical document.

            • I have not been called a troll in a long time. I kind of like it though. I bet I could have made a good troll if I tried. lol

              I’m no one special but Mark Bunker and Tony O know me and know if they contact me I will be glad to let them freely use the tapes either with parts with my daughter edited out or with that blurry thing done over her face.

              Mostly the tapes show lots of fun in and around the Freewinds. Off the Freewinds stuff was boating and lots of tourist type stuff in Curaco while visiting the Freewinds.

              On the Freewinds stuff was video walking on the decks, in the internal halls, in both main public dining rooms including watching the Freewinds Christmas choir, playing ping pong on the top outside, deck, etc. Also also some video in the starlight room with some scientologists like Chic Corea playing.

              It’s interesting I guess, but nothing earthshaking like DM plotting taking over the world.

              Still if people want to see it I am game to share it as long as it is put on the internet and made freely available for anyone who wants to see it.

            • Speaking of sounding like a troll, lol, I also found a several minute video made for the Discovery channel that I am not sure ever aired. It had myself as the CEO/President of an accounting software company called “RealWorld” and included some of my execs including Denise Gentile (the evil dwarf’s twin sister).

              I’m embrassed to say that our success was attributed to Hubbard.

              I’m not sure what good it would do but I can send that one too if wanted..

            • grundoon

              Denise, yes you are someone special, and don’t forget it.

            • Denise, I think the video of life on the Freewinds would be interesting, just to be able to put some reality on the ship. That might help people considering doing a cruise to re-think, since it’s probably a bit less posh than what you’d get on an inside cabin on some discount cruise line… Never mind the constant regging and the fact that they have your passport…

            • Tory Christman

              1subgenius…you just violated your nick w/ that one comment. Denise couldn’t be farther from a troll. Do a little research before you start slinging around who is and isn’t a Troll, please. 🙂 Tory/Magoo

          • sheepherder

            Is that really you, O WBM? Just want to say I am a fan. Please get your film out soon!
            Mark, I have so appreciated your unfailing kindness and decency as you’ve dealt with some serious ugliness. It’s an example to us all.

            • Tory Christman

              I taught him everything he knows.


          • Jill

            Holy Crap!! The WBM!!!

            So much win, so much wise!

            And Denise too!

            Can’t get any better, folks!!

        • I might Sandy, thanks. Give me a call Tony if you want to use them. Am glad to allow their free use on the internet. See below about dceleting some parts.

          • Forgive the “troll” reference. Not yet familiar with everyone here.
            You glorious Irish bitch. Did I used to refer to you as a glorious Irish bastard?
            We have exchanged pleasantries in the past, no?
            What other nuggets are you sitting on?
            (Ooooh, that was an awkward choice of words.)
            Hope to see this video soon.
            With all due respect, if its given to Mark only, we will only see a teaser until his film comes out, so, as they say “spread like fire.”

            • lol subgenius, I don’t mind being called a “troll”. In fact some of my dearest friends and cyberchildren on WWP and before WWP were trolls:)

              And perhaps the greatest thing ever to happen with respect to scientology (the original “Leaders of Scientology” video from Anonymous) was a glorious trolling that ended up turning the tide in the fight to expose organized scientology for what it is.

              You may have referred to me as a “glorious Irish bastard” in the past but I much prefer “glorious Irish bitch” which, as you can see, is the appropriate insult as regards gender:).

              The Freewinds video is the main scientology-related one I converted from VHS. Another was a Discovery Channel thingee mentioned above and I also have a short “video” which was one of the first made when the super power building was just an idea (not that it’s much more than an idea now). Not much to that early animated video but I have it if wanted.

            • Tory Christman

              Ok 1subgenius—-you’re absolved 🙂 (J/King). Sounds like you’re connecting the dots—and this is always good. Hugs to Denise! Yes, please s/how get these up on the Net. The more…the merrier. I had some excellent videos of Flag interviews, but OSA (Prolly Bill Yaude) stripped them clean. DICK.

      • victoria

        I happen to have everything set up to digitise video cluttering my living room just this minute. Thought I’d better get my girls baby video converted to digital since videos do have a lifespan.
        I’d be happy to digitise that for you, just give me a heads up here and we’ll sort it out;)

        • Many thanks Victoria:) For a Christmas present for my daughter last year I converted 44 VHS tapes of my daughter growing up to DVDs. She was totally surprised and loved them. Things like her with Santa when she was 7, ballet, karate, tons of family vids, etc.

          Now she has her own baby and it’s a great memory for her and for my granddaughter some day.

          I was on the Freewinds four times including the actual maiden voyage. Twice I took her and once I took about 2 hours of video. I would be happy to have video on the Freewinds feely available on the internet but don’t want a bunch of my daughter’s stuff in it. I’ll work it out with WiseBeardMan or someone else who can help. Maybe all I need to do is make some new DVDs from the original VHS tapes that have the parts with my daughter edited out..

          • victoria

            “For a Christmas present for my daughter last year I converted 44 VHS tapes of my daughter growing up to DVDs.”

            NICE! Yes, I am working on just such a thing for my daughters, maybe a short and sweet youtube compilation, highlighting some pretty childhood events. They often comment that they don’t feel like they will ever forget their childhood because they have seen bits and pieces of these old videos over and over.
            As any good Mommy does, I usually turned the camera off if there was any trouble, so it must look perfectly idyllic to them;)
            I can understand why you wouldn’t want your daughter as part of a seperate cycle regarding the FreeWinds. There’s lots of free editing software out there, some of it so simple even I can understand it, lol.

            • Awww, that is so nice:)

              All I did was buy a machine that accomodated both VHS and DVD and was able to covert the VHS tapes to DVD while you watched them on TV.

              It was not fancy and I can set it all up again and teach myself again to make the copies and do it in a day. It was something that cost maybe $150 or so.

              I don’t know how to edit it but can certainly let people who do know do that part.

  • I wonder how much the burden Wood lived with over this whole mess shortened her own life?
    Sad what people can do to themselves.

    • Helmuth, speaking for Boskone

      She vanished for over a year after she resigned as medical examiner. The court couldn’t find her, so I assume that it wasn’t a trivial search.

      • You know, there are jurisdictions where that would have been a point of keen interest. Florida, not so much – I guess.

  • I bet John Travolta will try to distance himself from what Marty Rathbun says at about 9.15 on the YouTube video. He is really made to be part of the cover up of the whole story.

    To be honest, he was just a brain washed pawn used by Miscavige.

    • And still is.

    • victoria

      I’m pretty sure he (JT) had NO idea what was really happening there.

      • Ignorance is no excuse.
        Especially in this scenario.
        Want a second opinion?
        He’s a lousy actor too.

  • Pingback: Aktuell: Marty Rathbun sagt unter Eid aus, dass Scientology im Fall „Lisa McPherson“ 30 Millionen Dollar für Beeinflussung von Richtern, Politiker usw. ausgegeben hat … | Blog gegen Scientology()

  • Jon Hendry

    Am I mistaken, or does the Billy Sheehan flyer say nothing about any events where Sheehan and company will actually perform?

  • flunk123

    As musician, I would love to know if those performers get paid to play on the Freewinds.
    I knew a Scientologist photographer who made a deal with Celeberity Center to take some photos. They stiffed him. It lead to a long and drawn out cycle that ended with him leaving the church.
    I’ve known musicians to get paid on vacation liners. I also know a pianist who got a free vacation for him and his wife, in exchange for him playing an hour of cocktail music a few times a week on the ship.
    But these Scientology musicians look sad.
    OK, Sheehan was some kind of an underground rocker, back in the 70 ‘s.
    But those other performers are scaring me. It’s like they have a double-expectation: not only do they expect to go “Clear and OT”, but, somehow or another, they expect “Scientology” to guarantee them successful careers in the music business. And there they are, playing for free on the Freewinds.
    Ay yi yi.
    Look at their faces … the look of the lost, the look of the hopeless!
    I was in Scientology back in the 70’s, and I knew a guitar player named Neil Kunen. He could barely make a living as a musician, so he gave lessons.
    Not too long ago I saw him on YouTube, sitting next to Peter Schless in the Gold Base recording studio! I guess Neil’s a Gold Base musician now. I read he’s OT VIII, too! he’s a “Sacred Person”.
    Can you imagine being OT VIII, and in the Sea Org? Talk about hitting rock bottom. Not only do people around you expect the world of you, for being OT VIII, but you get nothing in return for it, except, of course, the constant threat of being stripped down to nothing, should you fuck up – it’s not only slavery, it’s emotional blackmail.
    And what if he were routed out, after all these years in the Sea Org? It would be like being dropped off on a strange planet where he didn’t know the language … or the music.

    • I think they probably do get paid something. But as soon as they are paid, they get regged by the IAS!!

    • deElizabethan

      As far as i found out last year. Every SO member has two jobs or posts. Musicians if in SO, entertaining is their first or second post, depending on their status I assume. At least they can have some fun practicing what they love, plus get a free shipwreck on the freakwinds, if stats are up. Also all are supposed to have study time. (ha)

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      the deal changed all the time. On the Freewinds, performers could get free cramped room and three meals in exchange for performance. I sort of remember Neil. I’ve seen a few that I knew still in, though most not Sea Org. Many were very talented, and now either not playing at all, just Hubbard Management consulting work. those who still are, well, it is impossible to perform soul stirring music when yours has been sucked dry. Remember Stacy Francis? In scientology world today, every single person is a Salesman first and foremost. All that counts now is the accountant.

    • I knew Neil. He was a good guitar player – I was bummed when I heard he joined the SO. Wasted talent.

      I think I know that photographer – it might have been Harrison Funk, or there was another guy who did a lot of Celebrity covers, Dick something? Zimmerman, that’s it.

      As far as the pay, if the musician isn’t SO, it could be a few hundred bucks a week and a free course. But you eat in the public dining rooms, not in staff mess like on a major cruise line. But for more famous types like Sheehan, who knows? He’s probably there just for that week, not for a 1- or 2-month stint like the others.

      Of course, they try to recruit them into the SO and then they won’t get paid shit and have to scrub floors during the day.

      • flunk123

        Just joking, I told Neil Kunen that an OT friend of ours “went exterior, flying upside down in a circus tent!”
        Neil started laughing, in amazement, saying, “Wow … those OT’s are incredible!!!!”
        Feeling bad, I tried to make it a little more obvious that I was joking: I told him I saw John Coltrane running backwards down Hollywood Boulevard …
        Once he realized I was kidding, he stopped laughing … ah, those were the days!

      • flunk123

        The photographer was a good ol’ boy from East Texas named Jimmy Townes, RIP.
        Jimmy was an artist and a musician too – “Life Is Good” (from his “Power of the Dreamer” CD) is some great music he made, once he left Scientology!

    • nobs

      “It would be like being dropped off on a strange planet where he didn’t know the language … or the music.”
      Which is why there are so many resources now for X-SO. How the former SO members FIND these resources, I don’t exactly know. If they have access to a computer and google something like “ex-sea org”, they can find help, such as:
      Also, it strikes me that many of them would have non-scn family they could go to for a place to decompress.
      I particularly like Jefferson Hawkins’ account of making his way after leaving the SO, and he did it ALONE.

      • nobs

        P.S. That account would of course, be Counterfeit Dreams (in blog form or hardback or ebook).

    • Apolo Seaman

      We used to have some really incredible bands and parties back in the early 80s at Flag – real blow outs, with public and staff mingling together and getting seriously down. No obscene regging, no getting hassled. One New Year’s party the Edgar Winters Band played. I was a teenager at the time and It kind of blew my mind when they lit it up with the song Frankenstein. I remember hearing they paid them 25k. Either Edgar or Johnny was a scio back then, can’t remember which one.

  • Sunny2

    Possibly a correction to the statement “she (Lisa) was rushed to the hospital and died”. Some reports said Lisa died and was rushed to the hospital. Can’t have any EMS at the mecca.

    • Not “some reports.” It was Rinder who said something on German TV but later denied that he implied she died at the hotel. I didn’t want to get into all that in a single-sentence overview. But I did change to “died on the way,” since that’s the original report. (I’m not saying it’s settled fact.)

  • XenuLurks

    US based/born $cienos don’t celebrate Thanksgiving (11.22.12)? Oh well moar turkey & caek for Anons/critics/exes & of course Lord Xenu

    • How about the dinner and drilling part?
      Sounds like a great first date!

  • Observer

    I’m guessing one reason they make such a big deal about Christmas is that it helps them perpetuate the lie that Scientology is compatible with other faiths. In the Christmas flyer pic with the OT symbol they’ve extended the vertical bar of the T up to the top of the O (and left the doodads at the crossbars of the Scn cross out) to make it look like a Christian cross.

    The LRH quote they use absolutely nauseates me. “The spirit of Christmas lives with us. We are the real protectors of the spirit of Christmas

    I seem to remember someone asking a couple of days ago if Scientologists make New Year’s postulates … I guess we know the answer to that one now!

    • Observer

      Gah! I wish we could edit. As I was trying to say when I accidentally hit post on my iPad:

      “The spirit of Christmas lives with us. We are the protectors of the real tradition of Christmas–peace on Earth and goodwill to all.” Yes, the “real” tradition of Christmas as exemplified by the man who created “acceptable truth”, disconnection, fair game, the RPF, overboarding, “always attack, never defend”‘, auditing process R2-45 and many, many more goodwill-spreading directives.

      It makes me SICK.

    • New Years Postulates!

      I am trying these in 2013.
      Lord knows my plain old NY resolutions were not working for me.
      I was usually already at fail status by the first thursday in January.
      (at 2PM).

  • Scientia

    Since when was Christmas ever about Jesus Christ?

    • Don’t let Bill O’Reilly hear you say that.

    • “The precise year of Jesus’ birth, which some historians place between 7 and 2 BC, is unknown. By the early-to-mid 4th century, the Western Christian Church had placed Christmas on December 25, a date later adopted in the East. “

      • The precise year of Jesus’ birth, which some historians place between 7 and 2 BC, is unknown.

        How can it be 7-2 BC if this is C? a=a=a=a=a

        Are you there Vodka? It’s me BTN.
        And bring olives!

        • sheepherder

          A monk – in the 4th century, I think – made an error in calculating the dates – apparently he messed up on the reign of Augustus. I can sympathize with that man( because, well, you should see my checkbook. Or not. ) Anyhow, Jesus may have been born as much as 11 years before the date we use, tho most scholars say 4. He was also probably born in the spring (shepherds would not have been “in the fields” in winter, they’d be bringing the sheep into folds at night; but they’d sure need to be out there during lambing season.)
          And it’s immaterial. The date Dec. 25 is kind of like the Queen’s birthday; doesn’t matter when the monarch was born, his or her birthday is always celebrated in April. It’s the acknowledgement and celebration that’s important.

          Lemonlemon is correct tho there is more to it than that, but I won’t bore you.

      • LemonLemon

        The date of December 25th was adapted because December 25th was a time when the pagan ritual of Winter Solstice was taking place. The decision to mark that period by placing Christmas there, was a purposeful move to draw attention away from that ritual.

    • LemonLemon

      For practicing Christians, it still is. The 40 days of Advent leading up to Christmas are marked with Nativity scenes, Advent wreathes and calendars. The Gospel readings at Mass are telling the story of the events leading up to Jesus’s birth.

      So although Christmas has become much more about presents these days, the origin of it, is not lost. Not to mention that the radio is filled with Christmas music from November 1st through Christmas. So, there’s that. 🙂

      • MidwestMom

        While Lent is 40 days, Advent is actually between 3-to-4 weeks long, depending on the year. (Although it would make it a lot easier to memorize it if it were 40 days long, wouldn’t it? 🙂 It begins the Sunday closest to the feast day of martyred Saint Andrew, which is November 30th. ( An Advent rhyme: “November 30th, the feast of martyred Andrew the saint, and in three weeks and three days, it will be holy Christmas Day”).

        This year, Advent begins on Sunday, December 2nd, so Advent is 23 days long. We light the first Advent candle on the 1st Sunday of Advent and read from the Bible and say a prayer, and do so every evening during Advent, lighting a new candle each Sunday. We also light a Christ candle, which we put in the center of the wreath, on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. The Christmas Season officially begins after sunset on Christmas Eve, when we celebrate Jesus’s birth and continues until the Sunday after Epiphany Sunday (Epiphany Sunday is “Three Kings Day”, when we commemorate the Magi’s long journey of finding the young Jesus, and it is celebrated on January 6th, The celebration of the Baptism of the Lord, is on Sunday, January 13th, when we put away the Christmas decorations and creche at church until next Advent.

        Most people put their own Christmas decorations away earlier than the church does, but the creche (manger scene) is supposed to be out at least until Epiphany Sunday, when we can finally move the Three King figures to the creche. (We have to put ours up where the dog won’t mistake the manger scene figures as new chew toys).

        For many years, when I taught religion, my class would make a gigantic Advent calendar and it would hang in the church vestibule (lobby/entrance to the church). It had large flaps to open and close, and was not very easy to hang up, because of it’s size, but it was something the children were always excited to help make since we made it so that the blind could feel the sheep and clouds, etc. and they could smell frankincense and mhyrr and cinnamon stick posts.

        I apologize for taking up so much space here. You are very kind to put up with my lengthy post. I will log off now, to protect you from my hijacking any more threads!

        • sheepherder

          Just heard someone clerical this morning saying how hard it is to keep Advent in the face of the Great Midwinter Consumer Bash – Co$ is obviously trying to take advantage of the latter.

          Advent is so counter-cultural; a period of quiet reflection in the midst of massive hoo-haw. I recommend it to everyone, of any persuasion or none at all. And ‘quiet reflection’, btw, is an excellent method for keeping the scilons from getting hooks into you. They don’t want you reflecting on anything, especially Co$.

          • Aspsusa

            Interesting observation. Growing up in a Nordic country (though in a thoroghly secular family) Advent was anything but counter-cultural here. As late as the mid-80ies first Sunday of Advent signaled the start of Christmas lighting for shops etc.
            It is only since encountering NA Christians on-line that I have heard the Advent = Quiet reflection -idea. I grew up with the idea of Advent = the period of preparation before Christmas;which means baking, cleaning, gifts, putting out food for the birds etc. (Nice example of how Christianity was blended in to fit with with practical rural northern life, isn’t it?)

            In a way I see consumer hysteria as a sort of natural, logical, outgrowth of a more rural Advent. Not that much difference between preparing for the feast by cooking, baking and making things, and preparing for the feast by buying. Except that the former is probably better for your mental health 🙂

            • sheepherder

              You probably won’t see this, but I can’t quite agree with you about the consumer hysteria being a natural outgrowth of rural life.

              Advent is a time of preparation and expectancy here too; we do all the baking, cleaning etc. and shopping, but in the traditional churches it isn’t Christmas until Christmas Eve. Advent has its own colors and music, and is meant to encourage self-examination, meditation and spiritual discipline.

              I suspect that the liturgical calendar was discarded in Protestant countries because it was too Papist. The Puritans refused to observe Christmas at all, and outlawed it when they could; when Christmas came back into popular use it became increasingly secular as the US became urbanized culture. Many Protestant churches observe Advent now, but there is large gap between rural customs and the present consumerist culture.

    • Here’s Rev Billy and the Stop Shopping Orch’s take on that whole thing. You guys, if you haven’t seen this, I think you will looove it!

      • sheepherder

        Damn, CV, where did you find this? What a scathing comment! Dead on! Not even funny.
        I HATE the W store. Fought it coming to my hometown. Loathe Disney too.
        Thanks for putting this one up.

        • Rev Billy can be found on You Tube — including a hilarious interview clip with Glen Beck, and a full-length film called “What Would Jesus Buy?”

          You can also like him on Facebook. He posts videos and such there. Performance art activism at it’s finest!!

          • sheepherder

            Thank you; I will check the Rev. out!

      • Right On Rev Billy ! Stop Shopping..Fuck Corporate Capitalism

    • Apolo Seaman


      Any new religion worth is mental hand-cuffs knows you co-opt the other religion’s major holidays. Not to be controversial, but it is no accident that Christians put their major holiday in late December. At the time of Christianity’s ascension, the other major religions of the day (mostly pagan) had huge celebrations for the Winter Solstice, which falls on December 21 or 22. It is also no accident that the miracle of Christ’s rebirth at Easter happens at the same time that all of the competing religion’s rite of spring festivals were happening.

  • mimsey

    the reason why they promote xmas is many people have that week or two off, and they want them to do services at the org. Flag especially tries to get them there for a quick L or a 6 mo. refresher. over the hoildays.

    • tessa

      Yeah, it’s just a marketing tool, nothing else. They don’t give a f… about Christmas. It’s bad for the statistics with all their ‘students’ on holiday!

      • LemonLemon

        It shouldn’t make that big of a difference if all their students go home for the holidays. Even if half go home…half of zero, is still zero.

    • Sunny2

      That’s probably why Winter Wonderland is already half finished on Ft. Harrison.

  • Dee Fogger

    Did Dander included references to Operation Snow White and Operation his original filing to demonstrate the cult’s historical pattern and practice to thoroughly destroy any opposition? He can’t assume the judge will be familiar with how the cult operates based on it’s sacred LRH policies. I’m going to finish reading it now so I can attempt to gauge the success of their Motion to Strike. It appears, at first glance, they’ve got the best shot with argument II. As for argument III, the wicked irony of cult lawyers claiming “harassment”!

    Also, Marty and co spent YEARS on this operation but he gives Dander ONE HOUR to depose him and why not mention the “smoking gun” doc in the depo? Hopefully, he’s planning to make himself available for more depo’s if the judge allows his testimony to remain.

    Of course Goodis denies the allegations. The dude doesn’t want to get disbarred.

    I hope the FBI and IRS are paying attention to this..

    • deElizabethan

      “Operation Snow White and Operation his original filing to demonstrate the cult’s historical pattern and practice to thoroughly destroy any opposition?”
      What about the other Operations that occurred ’79-84 for the same purpose. Ask or read Nancy Many and me. Hers is known about mine isn’t yet to show historical pattern before Lron was gone. Misdickavage was ruling and supposedly changed GO to OSA. Neither of us knew about it in the field and it was business as usual.

      • Dee Fogger

        Agreed. There’s lots of documentation of these operations on many people. I just mentioned the two of the most well known. “Business as usual” is the exact point I was attempting to make. Thanks for helping to clarify.

      • Sunny2

        I hope you’re able to write yours someday, it sounds like a good read.

        • Sally

          deElizabethan has posted her story.
          Perhaps someone can post a link? (I never got around to reading it and don’t know where to find it now :().

          • deElizabethan

            Sally, I found that I didn’t need to post the bio story to be included on the WWP list and did it differently with links. I could post that short bio 40 years story here if anyone is interested. I’ve sent to some relatives and friends.
            The secret one is taking some time as I’m being careful, of course, even tho it’s no big thing, in the scheme of things. But I’m still living with it.

            Through the Door:

            Former Church of Scientology members who have spoken out – Why We Protest Wiki
            If not work – look here under Featured content for above .. Why We Protest Wiki
            Wilberta Findlay

        • deElizabethan

          I already have written the secret story and it was a great healing for me to write it up, but the fat lady hasn’t sang yet. Plus it is a minor thing in the whole Scn picture, except for me personally. Everything takes so long when doing it oneself, but am working on. I have it in a safe place for the future. Thanks Sunny3

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  • Stop the noise in your head with Dianetics!

    Works the same as a bullet!

    • And the bullet is WAY cheaper!
      Extra bonus: you don’t have to do GAT1 and then GAT 2.

    • Dee Fogger

      Did you notice that you can stop the noise in HER head with Dianetics? How odd, now you can control not only your own thoughts but other peoples thoughts as well.
      A bullet would be less painful than Scientology.

    • Stop The Noise In Your Head With Something Real:

  • LemonLemon

    I love how in the Motion to Strike, they have “Flag Service Organization, Inc.” (sounds like a business to me!) and then the word “church” in quotes but still try to claim it’s a church. If it’s Flag, Inc., you should NOT be receiving tax exempt status and if it’s a church, you can’t charge people up the ass for every little service. Can’t have it both ways, Davey boy.

  • Paul

    Unbelievably, I am confromted with using the Music from the Musical score I wrote based on the Way To Happiness in 1983, which was decided not to send up to the Golden Era Studios then, by the Commander of Celebrity Center and Myself ! After looking at the upsurped Scientology Scene and including Celebrities, I decided to bury it in an Iron Mountain for the Future. LOLL KRC Power ARC Understandings !

  • The only Christmas image even more disturbing than the Hubbard one.

    • Dee Fogger

      It must be pretty horrific ’cause I get a “403 Forbidden” on the link.

      • I just tried it and it worked fine. What country are you in ?

        • sugarplumfairy32

          Jeez, Howdy.. You find some interesting stuff.. It is disturbing.. Dee and Valkov, im pretty sure it’s an old photo of hitler staring wistfully into the lights of a Christmas tree..

      • Valkov

        I get the same. I am in the USA.

  • bobxtm

    I found a piece from 1972 on how Ayn Rand’s cult worked in her heyday,
    which has some fascinating parallels to Hubbard in his heyday.

    • tessa

      Thanks for this link. Interesting to see how the cult mechanism has been used through the ages over and over again. It is basic mind control of course. It can be used with all kinds of ideology (religious or non-religious). Nowadays modern social media play an important part. In education more attention should be given to ‘how to recognize a cult: in religion, in politics, in business, etc.’. And especially on ‘how to stay out of it’.

    • sheepherder

      I read this article a few years ago – EXCELLENT! It’s long but so well-written you won’t notice – fascinating in a grisly way. Rand was such a ghastly person; and no more an economist or a philosopher than lrh was a nuclear physicist. . I highly recommend this link to any one interested in the patterns of cult behavior.

  • Eric J

    30 million? Holy smokes….

  • A footnote to the cult’s bribery: Dr. Wood’s life was ruined–once a respected doctor, she lost her license, retired to a small townhouse which she never stepped out of and died in seclusion at age 64. Yes, Scientology helps people!

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  • I was going to say this is off topic, but it actually seems to be relevant to the whole Marty Rathbun & Lisa McPherson business. So, here is my Sunday food for thought. It’s about loaded words — specifically, “cult”, “evil”, and “responsibility. Derek Bloch, you helped inspire this one!

  • Zinnia

    Tuesday November 22 ??? Is it Tuesday Nov 20 or Nov 22nd?

  • Observer

    Has anyone heard how the Baca/Scientology TWTH handout went? The news had no mention of rainbows and unicorns suddenly appearing in any of LA’s gang-infested neighborhoods, so I’m guessing some postulates failed.

  • Sherbet

    Off topic: I notice there’s a “Sherb” posting at Marty’s blog. It isn’t me.

    On topic: Yesterday’s and today’s news and blogs are awesome! Keep crumbling, cos. We’re waiting and loving it!

  • Davka

    Dandar’s e-mail doesn’t sound like extortion to me, just plain old fashioned litigation and posturing, although this case is surely more personal for him than an an ordinary arms length transaction, and the subject line of the e-mail doesn’t really help matters (typo included!). But the other side is definitely coming after him. Check out he footnote about his “diminished” memory. This is going to be one interesting hearing.

  • Wow!

    This is more like it!! I guess Marty et co have been milking the revelations about the culture of violence for some time, now they’re turning a new leaf.

    All I can say is that they would have gained a whole lot of respect by not waiting so long.

    Anyway, this is a good start, and I love the timing (to coincide with the GAT2).

  • Speaking of Jesus/Christmas in relation to Scientology, here is the pic of what looks like the cover of the old edition of The New Slant Of Life. Notice “Man is being crucified by ignorance of himself” at the bottom. Good point, also let’s position it with a dude on the cross. It’s very telling.

  • Still waiting on depo from Mike Rinder.

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  • koki raki

    did anyone notice , that one can go to OTV, in 25 weeks……
    big hello from LRHs Bulgravia….

  • Apolo Seaman

    Wow, some of you anonymous posters are pretty rough on Marty. He’s out there in full view and accountable while you a$$hats sit behind the lines and take pot shots. (Alanzo, etc.) LIke him or hate him, it is cowardly to publicly denigrate someone anonymously. The moment you out yourselves and use real names and allow yourself to also be a target is the moment your “open debate and open dialog” canard will be respected.

    This is some high stakes poker going on in these cases. The church is throwing everything they can at Rath and Rind to destroy them. If they spent $30MM to fight the McPherson case, how much will the spend to destroy these guys? All that Rath and Rind have to fight back is specific inside knowledge. (and maybe a contingency lawyer?) It is no surprise that they are judiciously parsing this out in ways that inflicts the most harm on DM.

    If Rathbun and Rinder get enough traction with this case, the church will be forced to settle. With these guys, they will only do it when their back is 100% against the wall and they are out of options. That or the public relations beat down just gets too much. But what the church really, really, really wants is a full win and to discredit these guys. Gonna be hard. You can bet they are pulling out all the stops.

    Once they run out of options, if they stay true to their MO, (alla Debbie Cook, David Mayo and many others) the church will lay 10 to 20 million on the table, and then try to force a full on gag order on Rath and Rind in the bargain. That would be sad. Debbie had a chance to do some good. She was extremely well respected – they sure got her to shut up didn’t they?

    • (my message below was meant to be a follow-up to this, ehrm, anonymous belly-aching 🙂 )

  • “alanzo” is a known pseudonym. I use my own name.

    But, I agree that I cannot avoid someone THAT easily hurt. I refer you to Marty’s classic “Noise” of 2009 from which we quote “Every time I express an opinion critical of the critical ones, they start throwing rotten vegetables and fruit with as much ferocity as Miscavige used to punch on Rinder for counseling a bit of reason. ”

    Way to go, Marty!