SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

Honesty in Scientology: Jefferson Hawkins Helps Us With Another Ethical Quandary

What are your crimes?

What are your crimes?


Jefferson Hawkins was once the top marketing executive for the Church of Scientology and helped it reach its greatest extent with the famous “volcano” TV ads in the 1980s. He’s told his tale of getting into and out of the church with his excellent books Counterfeit Dreams and Leaving Scientology, and he’s helping us understand the upside-down world of Scientology “ethics.”

Last week you eased us into the dynamics as we continued to read into Introduction to Scientology Ethics. What’s next for us, Jefferson?

JEFFERSON: This week we’re looking at Chapter 2, innocently titled “Honesty,” which introduces some of the main concepts of Scientology Ethics: overts, withholds and motivators.

THE BUNKER: Let’s define those terms for the newcomers.

JEFFERSON: This is part of the specialized language of Scientology. Fortunately, the chapter begins by providing a list of definitions. An “overt,” we are told, is “a harmful act or a transgression against the moral code of a group.” That’s pretty straightforward. And “withhold” is “an overt act that the person committed that he or she is not talking about.”

“Motivator” is a bit trickier. It is defined as “an act received by the person or individual causing injury, reduction or degradation of his beingness, person, associations or dynamics.” That’s a complicated way to say “a harmful act done to you.” This is the idea of “pulling it in.” In Scientology, harmful acts against oneself are “pulled in” by the individual to justify his or her own overts. Hubbard states it this way:

…when a person commits an overt, he will then believe he’s got to have a motivator or that he has had a motivator. For instance, if he hits somebody, he will tell you immediately that he has been hit by the person, even when he has not been.

This is a key concept in Scientology. If someone starts complaining about something, or claiming he has been harmed by something, then they are regarded as a “victim,” as “motivatorish” and are asked “what did you do to pull that in” or “do you have a similar overt of your own.” It’s immediately turned around on them.

There’s one last term that is key: “justification.” This is redefined as follows:

A social mechanism a person uses when he has committed an overt act and withheld it. It is a means by which a person can relieve himself of consciousness of having done an overt act by trying to lessen the overt. This is done by finding fault or displacing blame.

In other words, if you are finding fault, criticizing, or blaming others, you are justifying your own crimes. This lays the groundwork for concepts that will be brought up throughout this chapter. If something bad happens to you, it’s your own fault — you “pulled it in.” If you are complaining about things, or if you get sick or injured, it’s just motivators brought about by your own overts. If you are finding fault or blaming others, it’s your own overts.

THE BUNKER: So if someone complains about, say, conditions in The Hole or on the RPF, then it’s just their own overts talking.

JEFFERSON: Exactly. And you start to see the use of this as a control mechanism. The answer to anyone being critical or complaining or getting sick or injured is always to get them into a Security Check and “find out what their overts are.” The whole next section of this chapter, in fact, called “Honesty and Case Gain,” is an exhortation to get into session and confess all of your overts and withholds. If you don’t, the chapter warns, you won’t get any “case gain” and your progress up “the Bridge” will be barred. And this is how they get Scientologists to confess their innermost secrets. Before each of the “OT Levels,” for instance, one has to get an “Eligibility Sec Check” and confess everything.

THE BUNKER: The Church is critical of us — does that mean they have overts against us?

JEFFERSON: Ha, ha. No, this is one of those principles that somehow doesn’t apply when you are talking about Hubbard, or the Church, or Miscavige. Hubbard was very critical of psychiatrists and medicos, but no one even thinks it was because he had overts. And Miscavige is critical of nearly everyone — but of course has no overts.

THE BUNKER: So do you think the purpose of all this confessing is to get material they can later use to control the person?

JEFFERSON: Certainly it’s been used that way. But remember that confession in itself is a stock tactic in mind control. Robert Jay Lifton, in his brilliant book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, says this:

The totalist confession…is an act of symbolic self-surrender, the expression of the merging of individual and environment…

The assumption underlying total exposure…is the environment’s claim to total ownership of each individual self within it. Private ownership of the mind and its products — of imagination or of memory — becomes highly immoral.

So I think even more important than “getting the goods” on its members is the idea of complete self-surrender, the collapsing of any personal space and the merging of the individual with the group. “You have no personal space. Your thoughts belong to the group.” And, as Lifton points out, this culture of confession begins to generate new secrets (or “withholds” as a Scientologist would say) primarily concerned with resentments and doubts about the movement itself. And of course these doubts and resentments are handled the same way — more personal confessions.

The last few years I was at the Int Base, virtually the only auditing anyone was getting was Sec Checks. And it had even devolved into these cult-like group confession sessions.

THE BUNKER: One of the sections of this chapter is called “Blow-Offs.” So the urge to leave Scientology, or “blow,” is also caused by overts and withholds?

JEFFERSON: As you might expect, the system addresses anything that might cause an individual to question, challenge, or even depart the group. This section is really an amazing bit of writing. Hubbard convinces us that the only reason a person wants to leave a group is because of their overts and withholds. People leave because of their own overts and withholds. That is the hard-bound rule.

Of course, being Hubbard, he offers no research to support this; he simply proclaims that this is the way it is, period. But if you think about it for a few minutes, it’s a ridiculous assertion.

People leave groups or jobs or anything else for many reasons — boredom, the chance of a better job or a better life elsewhere. Sometimes people leave because they are being mistreated or oppressed. I don’t think anyone would be so heartless as to state that an abused woman was leaving her husband because of “her overts against him” or that refugees were leaving a country because of “their overts against the regime.” Yet here is Hubbard, stating it as unalterable fact.

It’s an effective way to keep people in line. One can imagine the North Korean government announcing “All those who attempt to escape are traitors with crimes against the State!” It’s also a good self-policing mechanism. The minute you find yourself thinking “I want to leave this group,” your next thought is “I must have overts to think such a thing.” And if you should ever tell anyone “I want to leave,” the immediate response is “what are your crimes?” The person is immediately introverted, whether by themselves or by others.

The rest of the chapter expands on these themes. Confessing is good; you should confess your overts and withholds often; if you find yourself thinking critical thoughts or wanting to leave, write up more overts and withholds. And all of this is, of course, “for your own good.” The last section, interestingly, is a detailed instruction sheet giving the exact format and procedure of “writing up your O/Ws.”

THE BUNKER: We’re sure our readers will find that useful! But seriously, do you think confessing one’s sins can be therapeutic at all?

JEFFERSON: Sure. This is how Hubbard justifies it and how Scientologists justify it. To me, there is a big difference between confessing one’s sins privately, whether to an auditor or a priest, and being required to confess them publicly, with your sins written down, put on file, and able to be accessed and used by Church executives. Scientologists often point to Catholic confession as a comparable practice. Well, it’s not comparable. In Catholicism, your sins are not written down or recorded or kept on file, and you are not sent to the confessional if you criticize the Church or want to leave. That’s the difference, to me, between a therapy and a control system.

 
——————–

More Jeff Hawkins!

Karen de la Carriere experiments with a new type of video interview in this talk with Jefferson Hawkins…

 

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on October 31, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

 

Share Button
Print Friendly, PDF & Email
  • Sherbet

    Howdy, I was trick or treating at your door, but all I got was some kind of powder in a baggie. WTF? I wanted TWIX, man….

    • Guest

      All I got was a rock.

      • Sherbet

        Aw, poor Charlie Brown…

        • Guest

          My Charlie Brown, Pig Pen and Shermie (the one with the coonskin cap) ghosts are getting soaked by the rain, here.

          • Sherbet

            Raining here, too.

            • Guest

              It’s raining trolls, here at Tony’s, and they are seriously soaked. (They don’t know how to handle “Mom Tech”.) ;]

          • KJP in Portland

            This is one of the FEW RARE YEARS that it is NOT raining in Portland for Halloween. I was remarking earlier, walking the dog, and thinking what a nice night it will be for trick or treaters. (I coached my 16 yr. old son over at his Mom’s on a few harmless pranks).

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Nope, way too white of a joke.
      Opiates are usually a nice golden brown when raw.

      • Sherbet

        I didn’t say it was white. But, you caught me! I’ve been clean and sober, like, since birth.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          😉

      • Captain Howdy

        Unless it’s china white or the dope that’s coming out of Afghanistan which is a sort of a grey powder. Actually the only brown dope I’ve ever seen was the “mexican mud” that use to be around before Tar and the persian was brown also.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Funny, I have never seen good dope that wasn’t beige to brown.

    • BananaSplits8

      *I’m going to pretend I’m oblivious to the other convo.* I had no more than 20 kids at my door tonight. WTF?

      • Sherbet

        I had 7!

        • BananaSplits8

          What was your most memorable costume?

          I once was Ace Frehley from Kiss.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            That is cool.
            I did an acrylic painting of KISS in high school that won me an Art Scholarship.
            Who would have thunk it?

            • noseinabk

              May sound like an odd question. Was acrylic your preferred medium? Got a little artist I am trying to help.

          • Sherbet

            I had a very realistic wolfman. Great mask and hands. I wasn’t scared, since he was only about 2 ft. tall.

            • BananaSplits8

              BF played the boogyman last year. All dressed up and ugly mask, he sat immobile on a chair on the balcony and only moved if kids kinda, sorta questioned if he was real or not. He was sweet about it if you can describe it as such (less than five years old were off limits); the good news is none of them shit their pants on my property.

          • KJP in Portland

            My Dad dressed me up as a little sailor with a genuine Navy uniform, dixie cup, medals and all. How ironic that came to be!

          • noseinabk

            I was Marie and my best friend was Donny, funny because I had a black wig ( am blonde) and Donny was hispanic. That picture is so messed up.

            • Casabeca

              I loved your story!
              When my son started middle school, the boy gang decided to be cheerleaders. They all got the same uniform and cheap blonde wigs. A little mascara or lipstick and you could suddenly see how much they resemble the moms.
              This was 90s, so they thought they could hit more houses for candy if they used rollerblades. I still crack up thinking about them yelling, zig zagging thru the streets, then wiping out in a pile of pom poms and candy. Awesome!
              And I need grandkids too ;).

          • Guest

            My son was Don Cherry one year. I made a TV that he wore with “Hockey Night in Canada” in the background, and he had the goatee, the loud suit with stiff collar and cuffs on the shirt, handkerchief, boutonniere, and microphone. He was the most popular kid at school that day. (Everyone wanted to try on his TV).

            • noseinabk

              My son was the crocodile hunter one year. ( steve Irwin) At the time nobody knew what he was. When I look at the picks now its just sad.

        • Eclipse-girl

          We have had 2

          • Sherbet

            Wow. Plenty of leftovers. Just what I (don’t) need.

          • KJP in Portland

            I always ask my wife to buy candy I don’t like, that way I won’t be scarfing away on it afterwards.

          • Sibs

            14 so far, and it’s still early-ish. … Though I’m not sure yet how the trick-or-treating goes around here (the kids are outside playing much later on a normal day than where I grew up). I’m in a pretty big apartment complex but there’s so many houses around here that I dunno if that’s where the kids go trick-or-treating instead.

      • Guest

        Slow Halloween: 132 kids. (My hubby counts.)

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          132? holy crap.
          little sugar addicted shits!

          • Guest

            Last year we had just under 200. We have leftovers – hooray!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Wow, slow year, eh?

            • Eclipse-girl

              Next year, Halloween will be on a friday.

            • KJP in Portland

              And many will take a 3-day on that one. I’m sure gonna try!

            • Captain Howdy

              Halloween has been PC’ed out of existence almost. Look at the happy smiley decorations. Halloween is suppose to be SCARY. They don’t even wait for Halloween to be over before they start stocking stupid ass xmas crap. DAM THEM TO HELL! 🙂

            • Guest

              Everyone loves my Charlie Brown ghosts and pumpkin patch! i also have a spider the size of a Chevey Chevette with twinkling eyes. (All made by my dainty little hands).

              I’m keeping Halloween realz in my hood, bro.

              Word.

            • BananaSplits8

              Linus is one of the beautiful people.

            • Captain Howdy

              In my hood we had Halloween completions for best house and there were real prizes and we had block parties and such. My best childhood memories are from Halloween.

            • Aslansown

              Tonight I went into CVS and the guy said that by midnight tonight they have to have all the Christmas stuff out and they start playing Christmas music.

            • noseinabk

              I wish we had 200. I so miss all those little eager faces.
              Shit. I need grand kids.

            • BananaSplits8

              Nurse! 30ccs of Rock the Casbah stat!

        • KJP in Portland

          I doubt we get 3. We’re secluded in the back of the place. I DO miss the halloweens at Dad’s, even in the early 90s. He’d get 150 or more come by the front door. No decorations much. Just candy! He lived (and I grew up) in a really close inner-city neighborhood. Very densely populated. I’m way out at the end of the eastern ‘burbs now.

          • noseinabk

            People actually thanked us for coming! Wut? Uh no, thank you for not being that asshole who cant give out candy to the 10 little kids out eagerly looking for candy and costume praise.

    • Captain Howdy

      Oh shit, hold on to the powder and I’ll right over with a HUGE bag of Twix.

      And whatever you do DON”T snort any, it’s not what you think.

      http://youtu.be/lFsG8J3B9hg

      • Sherbet

        You always make me laugh, Howdy. (Mia didn’t.)

        • Captain Howdy

          You going to the parade?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            there is a Parade? jelly?
            We don’t have enough of them here.

            • Captain Howdy

              Red Sox Parade Sat.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              pHONE PICS?

            • Captain Howdy

              Shit, I ain’t going. that would be normal or somethin.

          • Sherbet

            Probably not. You?

      • noseinabk
  • Jeb Burton

    I was just over at the warriors site, and now he is somehow making the leap that scientology is just like the slavery in the 1800’s. He read Fredrick Douglas’s book and now says that he can see how DM is juist like a slave owner. Why I agree some of the tactics maybe similar, I dont know of any slaves that signed up on their own free will to be slaves, but scientologists, other than the children, were adults. Is he trying to tell me that Cruise, Travolta and the other celeberties are living life like black slaves? Even people who are in the hole are not whipped and beaten, as far as I know. I think this is pretty insulting to what African americans went through.

    • Espiando

      Don’t worry about Marty. I figured out what he’s doing with that post. It’s all part of the game with the Toxic Midget. Marty does not do anything without a plan. Just file it away for future reference.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        This is TRUTH!!!!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Ok, pre argument…….I just want to say….I was wondering where you were.

      Yes, Jeb Burton…I think I may have actually been…..(spits)…missing you.

      How the fuck did that happen?

      Sheesh.

      Anyway…”even people who are in the hole are not whipped and beaten, as far as I know.”

      WHAT?
      Did you miss a few chapters or what!?

      • Jeb Burton

        Its just every time he reads a book, he tries to tie into scientology. You missed me? Get in line. All my women miss me.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Ack on Marty.

          Yes I missed you.

          Get in line?……Dream on “El Dorkus!!!”

          All my women miss me…?
          LULZ—You are kinda cute for a PITA!

          • Jeb Burton

            El Dorkus? I think you mean El Studo. Some call me El Toro, because im hu….You know, like a bull.

            • Espiando

              You forgot the word “miniature” in front of bull and “terrier” afterward.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oy Vey Jeb….
              I would just say lets have sex and get it over with …But Mr. Nuts is such a roadblock when it comes to that.
              Darn it, 😉

            • Jeb Burton

              I hate Mr. Nuts. But I dont blame him. Somehow, maybe your worth guarding.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I know you love me,

              you want to kiss me,

              you want to hug me

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4B3iRD-bD0

          • KJP in Portland

            I’m still chuckling and dammit! I spit my Mtn. Dew again!

        • OrangySky

          I think it’s a step in the right direction, Jeb. Especially since he seems clear on the fact that Scientology itself instigated the slavery, not Miscavige.

          Yeah, he trivializes slavery. Which is insulting to African Americans and the very real victims of modern-day slavery who are at this very minute suffering untold horrors. http://www.policymic.com/articles/68765/new-global-slavery-index-finds-29-8-million-people-live-in-modern-slavery

          Yeah, every time he reads a book, he ties it into Scientology. Of course he does. He’s coming down off a really powerful high.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          I never upvote your comments jEBb. But that *was* funny.

        • Once_Born

          “All my women miss me”

          Perhaps they need an eye test, and more things to throw.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I am up voting this because…besides the one sentence I cherry picked………I agree with you.

    • DeElizabethan

      Flunk, need to re-read his post. Key worrd: mind!

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Oops, or just flunk

        • Espiando

          I think you and I have reached the same conclusion regarding Marty’s purpose for that post, BTN. Well, two purposes, really…

    • Jon Hendry

      “Why I agree some of the tactics maybe similar, I dont know of any slaves that signed up on their own free will to be slaves, but scientologists, other than the children, were adults”

      Slaves, especially these days, often sign up of their own free will not knowing that they are signing up to be slaves. For example a woman in Bangladesh might be promised a good job as a maid in Dubai, only when she gets there, there’s no paychecks and she’s regularly beaten.

      Similarly, Scientology doesn’t offer the reality in their sales pitch. That dancer who got sucked in, that Tony wrote about, wasn’t joining to be a slave. Or so she thought.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Actually people in the Hole are beaten, that violent culture is part of the problem…

  • Noni Mause

    I haven’t been through all the comments today, but from what I’ve seen, those who’ve been objecting to Jeff’s outline of Hubbard ethics haven’t called him a liar in relation to his description of being punched by David Miscavige.

    • Guest

      No one defends David Misacavige – not even Scientologists!

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        And yet they live in perpetual fear.
        Sad.

      • Noni Mause

        Perhaps they haven’t been allowed to watch Karen’s interview with Jeff?

  • Interested

    Goin to say night folks. You won’t see me for a couple of days. Going into hospital for some pretty shitty tests. Will know if all clear of the big “c” next week. I’ll miss you guys. Keep the trolls happy.
    My, what will we do when Tony moves on? -:(((

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Good luck to you I!
      Please let us know how things go.
      Damn.

    • FromPolandWithLove

      Good luck and hold on. I wish You courage and patience and GOOD HEALTH:):):)

    • OrangySky

      So sorry, interested. Had my own scary tests a couple months back – happily all was well. May you have the same results!

    • Sherbet

      Hope you come back with some great news, Int.

      • KJP in Portland

        Hi Sherb, love those Red Sox! (((hugs)))

      • Rita Gregory

        Congrats on your Red Sox win!

    • Captain Howdy

      Hang in there and best wishes

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Captain…………with the current climate………have you been tracking the sis?

        • Captain Howdy

          No and I have no idea of her current situation or that of her offspring. Last I heard she was DSA OSA NYC and that she had divorced her husband and that was like 3 years ago.

          We were never very close and I only met 2 of the kids briefly back in the early 80’s..so they’re basically strangers to me. Typical dysfunctional american family.

          Que Sera Sera

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz3z00zckkw

          • KJP in Portland

            It’s Orca Blubber chuffing on a ‘gar!

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            You are still uncle freakazoid……………Fight the fuck ON!!!!

    • Rita Gregory

      Good luck and I hope you get good news.

    • Ruby

      Interested…prayers and love for you. XOXO

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Best of luck on the tests and especially the outcome.

    • Eclipse-girl

      let us hope that Tony O is expanding his horizon, and not leaving us behind.

    • GlibWog

      Interested we will be thinking of you! Positive thoughts and prayers.. xox Glibby

    • Eclipse-girl

      Take care of yourself. I am so sorry that you have to spend time in the hospital. It would be so much easier if you were allowed to come in daily for the tests. I hope all the tests show that everything is OK.

      (((HUGS)))

    • noseinabk

      Interested, I will be thinking about you and hope you will let us know ,as soon as you are able, that all is well. I have been there and the waiting is the worst.

    • aquaclara

      Good luck! We will be here when you’re ready. In the meantime, take care!!!

    • Miss Tia

      Sending good thoughts your way!!!

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      Good luck Interested! I’m so very sorry for what you are going through. Being caught in the fine balance between and hope is despair with the “c” is one of the worst things to go through. I know… had slash, poison, and burn protocol myself in addition to 9 years of treatment plus many other chronic, life threatening experiences. You will surprise yourself at all the tools (you didn’t know you had) that you will discover you have to help you cope (physically and emotionally) – should the test outcomes turn out to be dismal. I, and the Bunker, will be there with you in spirit – all the way through. We here for you now and will be when you are able to post. So write when you are able to keep us posted! And get an iPad or Laptop into your room, as must most hospitals and other facilities will have WiFi for you to use, so you can at least read Tony’s and the Bunker’s posts.
      Wishing you the very best and the very best of outcomes,
      Cars

    • i-Betty

      I don’t know if it’s too late for you to see this, but I still want to send you my love and tightly crossed fingers for the all clear.

      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

  • Xique

    Thanks as always to you Tony, and to Karen and Jefferson too. I realize my life is changing for the better with your continuing help. With my mate still in, there are days that I am filled with frustration and disappointment . However I come here each day and find reason to hang in there. What would I do without you guys?

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Hang on………..just keep on hanging on!
      You have us to fall back on.
      It is really rough now………..the anxiety is palpable.

    • Guest

      We are so happy to have you a valued member of the freedom fighters! I know that there are times where it feels like nothing will change, but your example of being free from the constraints of Scientology is what will hopefully work to help him step away, too!

      It’s not easy loving someone who is living with blinders on, and hopefully, those blinders are loosening each and every day.

      It’s great to see you here again!
      XOX

    • MissCandle

      Keep your chin up.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Oh X, I am so sorry about the disappointment and frustration. Just know that we are all here to support you!

    • KJP in Portland

      Xique, my empathy pours out to you. I dearly hop your mate will blow soon. Until then, we are here to give you all the moral support you can handle! (((hugs)))

    • aquaclara

      We are here for you. You are a dynamo when it comes to the stories here! You add so much. It is hard to hear about families ripped apart, but we have to acknowledge this. It is a destructive force to families and friends, especially when only the cult gets to write the rules. They leave no room for the real story.

      Huge hugs to you, Xique.

      Now, bluntly, how can we help?

      • Xique

        I’m not sure. I want my marriage to go on , but I doubt it can. I keep thinking he will hear what I am saying, but to my shock he does not. It seems the more I push him the more steadfast he becomes. Just wish me luck is all. I love the support, it’s a beautiful thing.

        • aquaclara

          Good luck!

  • Ruby

    WISEcracker…where are you? We want an update report!

    • Eclipse-girl

      She did give an update, just under her original post.

      She had a phone conversation. She emailed in a form. She and her husband have to make a road trip.

      • TXCowgirl

        Thx for the Cliff Notes.

      • Ruby

        Thank you Eclipsegal! I will check it out.

      • KJP in Portland

        Great!

  • Johnny Tank

    Alexa update for Oct. 30: *refresh for image*

    Tony: US rank #8,750 – down 54 from yesterday.
    Scientology: US rank #38,295 – down 74 from yesterday.

    BONUS for today: rawstory.com: US rank #692.

    CONGRATS, TONY!

  • cdub

    Congrats to Tony on his position at RawStory. Bunches of respect from all of us. My guess is there’s plenty of talent here and around the world to carry on and see this problem through to the end. The end of Scientology in its current form, that is. It would be nice if this website remained intact but that’s up to Tony.

    Our deepest appreciation.

  • 3feetback-of-COS

    Might be old news, but: “Scientology calls tent wrap important, but city declares it an illegal sign”

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/scientology-calls-tent-wrap-important-but-city-declares-it-an-illegal-sign/2150189

    • Elen

      New to me… Thanks!

  • deathtoallpoliticians

    ok, i am off topic tonight but i just have to say that i am very disappointed with halloween. it seems that all of the creeps in this world have killed the holiday that i so enjoy. the real treat to me is seeing the various kids costumes and their faces as they get to dig into the bowl of candy that i have, and it is freakin’ HUGE 🙂 but nowadays, i barely get more than a dozen people for trick or treating, and that includes about 4 to 5 teenagers. parents now take their kids to rec centers and even around their work offices for trick or treating to keep their kids safe. and i absolutely cannot blame them. people really do suck. but this has killed one of my favorite holidays. i feel like kicking a pedophile square in the nuts right now…

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      NO SHIT…that Trunk or treat shit? eh?

    • noseinabk

      I am sorry to hear that. My kids range from 25 to 11 and I have seen the changes and miss seeing all the little ones. In our old home it was getting like that. We had a fantastic time tonight though. I am a little isolated so do not get trick or treaters, so we made up goodie bags and went to a nearby neighborhood. We gave them out to all the kids who were done and handing out candy. It is awesome to see how surprised the kids are to get one last treat and parents are tickled by it.

      • deathtoallpoliticians

        that is a really good idea, noseinabk! thank you very, very much! looks like i have a new technique to try next year 🙂

        • noseinabk

          Do eeet. I just told the parents that I don’t get trick or treaters and am so glad that they are out . The best part is the little kids. They think, ” well I got my fill for the night” and get an extra treat.

    • Robert Eckert

      You just don’t live in the right kind of place, then.

    • Robert Eckert

      You just don’t live in the right kind of place, then.

    • Captain Howdy

      The pedo’s didn’t kill it, the yuppie liberal “we mustn’t traumatize the kids” crowd did. I use to go trick or treating when serial killers were roaming the town and that just made it more fun.

      • noseinabk

        We did not need serial killers to scare us. Mom did that by frantically searching our bag for razor blade filled apples and oranges. When you are 8 or 9 the idea of a person wanting to do that can ignite nightmares.

        • Captain Howdy

          You do know the razor blade thing as well as the pins and LSD thing is an urban legend?

          • noseinabk

            We had the nice Spring Grove insane asylum story going in our neighborhood. This very creepy guy that lived near us spent some time at SG. He was would stand at the path for the shortcut for school sometimes and us ignorant kids would run . When he got out all the parents scared the shit out of us. Poor guy was probably autistic.
            Do not even try to ruin my creepy childhood memory’s Howdy. Some kid ABSOLUTELY did die by ingesting a razer blade! And Bloody Mary is for REAL. 8-D

    • EnthralledObserver

      We don’t do Halloween at all, despite the shop starting to sell merchandise in the last few years (and my kids seeing it and nagging) – and thank goodness for it. Nope, Australia, for the most part, is resisting – we just do not need something else to waste our money on, especially right before Christmas.

    • noseinabk

      In my town a pedo is required to put a sign in the window. No Candy.

      • Jimmy Threetimes

        In my town, we formed a mob and stormed the house of a pedo. Set the monster on fire. Old man Krueger never harmed another child, and now we can all sleep safely.

        • deathtoallpoliticians

          one, two, freddie’s coming for you / three, four, better lock the door / five, six, grab your crucifix / seven, eight, better stay up late / nine, ten, never sleep again 🙂 lol

  • KJP in Portland

    Congratulations, Tony! I hope you keep this forum going as well!

    • EnthralledObserver

      In Tony’s bio here he now mentions his new position and he still states he’s doing this blog and working on his book – I imagine he’d have changed that part too if his new appointment had meant he could not continue these ventures alongside his new job. I’ll await confirmation from Tony, but I don’t think we should worry. 🙂

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        good job EO.

      • Ruby

        Glad you saw that.
        And, frankly, he would be crazy to leave all these lovin, good lookin women…
        And even aside from that, I think he has WAAAY too much fun here. Nope…he’s married to us and divorce is not in the future.

      • Rita Gregory

        YAY!!!!!!!

      • Free Minds, Free Hearts

        I certainly hope he keeps up the blog but this is a lot!!!

      • Captain Howdy

        That’s reassuring and Happy Guy Fawkes Day!.

        • GlibWog

          It is.. Woo hoo..I just bought a mask tonight.. Perfect timing..

          night all !

          • BananaSplits8

            Just so we all have our watches synced, Guy Fawkes Night is the 5th. K?

        • EnthralledObserver

          🙂 Thanks… but we don’t do that here. But thanks! lol

      • Jimmy Threetimes

        We can still has bunker?

        • EnthralledObserver

          So far, so good – yes. 🙂

          • Jimmy Threetimes

            I hope it’s not a trick, cause that would sure be a treat.

            /leaves before tomato barrage

            • EnthralledObserver

              *lobs one after you*

  • EnthralledObserver

    Can someone help me learn how to do a screen grab – KJP, what you described to me yesterday doesn’t seem to be working.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Go find a free ware screen shot grabber. Google freeware screengrab.

    • noseinabk

      What operating system are you running? If windows you may have snipping tool and don’t even know it. If not look for the prt sc button on your keyboard.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I have windows – and yes I see the prt sc button… do I just push it/try it?

        • Once_Born

          Press prt sc. This will load an image of your screen into the clipboard.
          Then open Paint (which is in Start –> Accessories) and edit –> paste.
          You can then file–>save the image.

          Greenshot http://getgreenshot.org/downloads/ is a good, free, screengrab program.

          • noseinabk

            Yes! My son helped me with this as I had no idea. I use snipping tool because it is faster if I think I need to get it before its gone. I recently got a new computer (win 8 sucks) and am glad snipping tool is still available. If you don’t have that just google “screen grab keyboard shortcuts.”

            • EnthralledObserver

              Thanks for all help – nothing worked – and because I’m locked out of the admin account (a child and password changing incident – don’t ask) I cannot download anything. Oh well… I’ve learnt something in any event… will log the info away for some other time when I need it. Cheers, everyone!

            • noseinabk
            • EnthralledObserver

              Thanks nose, I got it with the fn plus prt sc. Thanks anyway!

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              What kind of coloring is on the Prt Scn key on your keyboard? On some keyboards you’ll have to hold the Fn or function key to get it copy the screen.

              Then open paint, right click paste or hit Ctr-v to paste it.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Hey – I got it – thanks! fn plus prt sc worked. Cheers!

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Great 🙂

        • Once_Born

          Press prt sc. This will load an image of your screen into the clipboard.
          Then open Paint (which is in Start –> Accessories) and edit –> paste.
          You can then file–>save the image.

          Greenshot http://getgreenshot.org/downloads/ is a good, free, screengrab program.

        • Miss Tia

          i gotta say i have windows XP and i’d never been able to do screen grabs –i thought it was my ancient keyboard—-but hitting prnt scrn did nada, holding control prnt scrn nada…..even a friend who’s a computer programmer came here and he concurred i couldn’t do screen grabs…..

          last week i was somehow on a story about windows 8 (and how much it sucked, not that i could ever afford a new computer, but it made me feel better knowing new OPS options sucked) and i saw the instructions how to do a screen grab for windows 8, hit/hold the windows button and prnt scrn….i tried it, it worked!!!!! how bizarre is that?

          if you have problems, try the windows button and prnt scrn, cuz that worked for me!! then i just control V into paint…..

          and i still dunno why i could never do screen grabs normally….must be my 15+ year keyboard is all i can figure…..

          • aegerprimo

            I have Windows 8 and PRT SC button works fine.

      • aegerprimo

        What noseinabk said!

    • aegerprimo

      Easy way… use the PRT SC button (print screen) and paste into your photo editing/graphics program of choice. Down and dirty you can paste into Windows Paint, crop as needed, save as JPG.

  • RMycroft

    Side News: CCHR shoves oar into a Supreme Court case

    tl;dr: A qualified scientist wrote a book with criticism of the DSM. CCHR jumped into a Supreme Court case with amicus curiae brief that used her book completely out of context. Scientology wasn’t mentioned. Scientist pissed off.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-isnt-golden/201310/what-the-supreme-court-needs-find-out
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/31/1252087/–What-the-Supreme-Court-Needs-to-Find-Out (duplicate)

    • Sarah James

      The psychology article is both frightening and exciting. If the judges are not capable of critical thinking… We have all seen that happen. Might a new form of judicial exercise be put in place in the future? Would be helpful in cases like scientology where they love to clog the courts with nonsense? At the very least some sort of critical thinking put in place to judge a paper that would have great weigt on a case.

      • Dee Fogger

        Of course they’re capable of critical thinking. They wouldn’t be Supreme Court justices if they weren’t. Biased and working to justify a decision forwarding a particular viewpoint does not equate with a lack of critical thinking skills. As much as a dislike the way some of them think, it is ‘critical’ thinking even if biased. Prime example – Antonin Scalia. That man can ‘critically think’ any decision he wants according to his personal biases. As a side note I’ve met the man a few times and went to school with his son. His son and a friend beat a guy nearly dead after a football game. The friend went to jail. The son graduated. Scalia was the graduating speaker.

        • jeff

          I want to downvote this – only because of what happened (or rather didn’t happen) to Scalia’s son. No justice.

        • Sarah James

          Lol my point exactly. Something needs to be added instead of taking “their word” or bias on understanding the matter at hand. I just can’t get started on Scalia, as life is too short. I will say I look forward to his retirement or any natural disaster he might incur.

          • Robert Eckert

            He will never retire. We can only pray for a premature death.

            • Sarah James

              Then it’s true, only the good die young.:-(

    • aegerprimo

      Thanx for sharing that article. Good question in quotes, and is a question I have wondered myself lately in following all the Co$ court cases here at the Bunker…

      “Does the Supreme Court have mechanisms to find out the nature of groups that submit amicus briefs, and does the Court have mechanisms to figure out whether scientific research and clinicians’ opinions in briefs are of good quality and accurately presented?”

      • Dee Fogger

        The only mechanism the justices have to determine the nature of the groups that submit briefs and the accuracy of scientific research submitted is the people that work for them. Lawyers working as clerks for the Justices review documents and write briefs about what they review for the justices. The justices then take this into consideration in their own review of the submitted documents. Each SCOTUS justice has about four clerks. Given the volume of written documents and the volume of citation in those filings to the court you can imagine how thoroughly cited works get reviewed. This is why it’s important for opposition attorneys to point out what problems lay in the briefs submitted by the other party. It’s simply impossible for all the nuances of every action before the court to be sussed out by clerks and the justices prior to a ruling.

        • Sarah James

          The whole process should be changed. Say the scion attys have found a paper which lines up with their argument. The author is alive. This person must agree to outline their slant on their work. If the person is deceased then three law professor chosen at random decide the bias. I know a mac truck could be driven through the the holes…but it is fun to think about. I really don’t believe in justice, I always look for fairness.

        • aegerprimo

          Thank you Dee!

    • RMycroft

      Hangs head in shame. I missed the note that it was a reprint of a 2006 CounterPunch article. It must have sunk into obscurity fast, because I didn’t remember it or the incident. If it had gone past as a reference in any of the Scientology Wikipedia articles at the time, I would have snagged it, I think.

  • RMycroft

    Side News: CCHR shoves oar into a Supreme Court case

    tl;dr: A qualified scientist wrote a book with criticism of the DSM. CCHR jumped into a Supreme Court case with amicus curiae brief that used her book completely out of context. Scientology wasn’t mentioned. Scientist pissed off.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-isnt-golden/201310/what-the-supreme-court-needs-find-out
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/31/1252087/–What-the-Supreme-Court-Needs-to-Find-Out (duplicate)

  • nottrue

    Karen and Jeffs vjdeo was just great. The part when DM was yelling let go of my legs let go of my legs has given me the giggles . cant stop. but what DM did was terrible

    • Aslansown

      It’s incredible. BTW, does anyone know what Karen’s accent is? Is she British? I’m just curious.

      • nottrue

        All i can get is she came to St Hill UK in the 1970s but from where i cant find. Now im curious too

        • Aslansown

          OK. I just really like languages and accents and I’m always curious about them. Thanks.

          • Rita Gregory

            I read somewhere she was raised in India, but I don’t know if that is accurate or not.

            • Aslansown

              Thanks. I hope I’m not coming off as nosy — just curious.

            • Rita Gregory

              No, I’ve always been curious about her accent as well. I can usually figure them out but so far I can’t place Karen’s.

            • Aslansown

              I know — I’m usually pretty good at it too. Sounds somewhat British but not exactly. Her name makes me think French but not everybody with a French name is French!

            • Rita Gregory

              Maybe it’s a combo.

            • Aslansown

              Probably. Maybe she wouldn’t mind if I asked her sometime — but I don’t want to cross personal boundaries.

            • KJP in Portland

              I would ask. I’m certain she’s been asked that many times already. I doubt she’s be bothered at all by it.

            • Aslansown

              OK. I probably will.

            • BananaSplits8

              Woke up and came back to make sure the last post I remember really was the last post. It was, phew! But also realized, KdlC’s unfamiliar accent we’re trying to pin down is the slow and enunciated accent of deafness.

            • Aslansown

              Interesting…thanks.

            • BananaSplits8

              Her name is definitely french but the accent isn’t. That’s all I got.

            • Aslansown

              🙂

            • BananaSplits8

              TBH, I think she speaks perfectly American. The rest is speech impediment.

              Bit drunk and willing to chat. Other nights they bare their souls, but tonight we talk about KdlC’s accent.

              FML

            • KJP in Portland

              I’m not sure, maybe she’s Dutch, or perhaps Welsh. Sure the name is French, but the Frenchies have been in Britain for centuries as Britons. ?

    • Sarah James

      The part about his legs-was Davey playing the victim card.

  • Deeana

    Youngest grandson had “Harvest Party” at elementary school today. Treats and games for the kids in the school multi-purpose room. It was supposed to be an outside event, but it has been raining all day, so it was held inside. NO costumes allowed!

    Then this evening between 6-8 door-to-door trick or treating took place in his neighborhood. He wore his costume and dad accompanied him from house to house along with a neighbor boy and his dad. They went out at 6:15 and returned at 8:15. He had 267 pieces of candy. (He counted them) Many were impressive, full sized candy bars. And lots and lots of Reese’s peanut butter cups!

    There were far fewer kids out than ever in the 6 years I’ve been there for the handing out of the candy. Could have been the rain, which had lightened to a drizzle, but I don’t think so.

    In any case, our little “Ninja” enjoyed it greatly and was even kind enough to share some of those Reese’s cups with Granny!

    • noseinabk

      Deeana, we do not “share” we confiscate potentially unsafe candy”. Its for the greater good.

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      You have great taste in candy. Reese’s cups cannot be beaten.

  • Captain Howdy

    Nighty nite and don’t let the body thetans bite.

    Happy Halloween, Samhain, Day of the Dead, Guy Fawkes Night EVERYBODY!

    My last bit of musical abuse I dedicate to David Miscavige and the rest of CofS

    Wake up cuz the rest of the world sees you as Scary Monsters & Super Creeps

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCNelxxc1JE

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Ciao, Cap’n! Must be about 4:15AM in the EU about now, eh… Love your posted media ~

      • Captain Howdy

        Thank you and try to cheer up..you look so sad.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          dude- tl;dr ! You are a grand comrade. I will always <3 what you do ~

          • Captain Howdy

            Some are born of sweet delight
            Some are born of endless night

            Together we shall triumph

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Thank-y, Cap’n ! I love William Blake, yet had not read — “Auguries of Innocence” – a poem from one of William Blake’s notebooks now known as The Pickering Manuscript.”
              ‘Tis a grand, grand piece of world literature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguries_of_Innocence

              As it begins:
              “To see a world in a grain of sand
              And a heaven in a wild flower,
              Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
              And eternity in an hour.

            • jeff

              Auguries of Innocence is also the title of a volume of poetry by Patti Smith which I have on my bookshelf.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              “… a poetry collection by Patti Smith, published in 2005.[1]
              This collection of poetry includes exactly twenty-six recent poems
              penned by the active, contemporary poet. Drawing on some of her many
              influences such as William Blake and Arthur Rimbaud…”
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguries_of_Innocence_%28Patti_Smith_poems%29

            • jeff

              Yes. I had the good fortune of meeting her once.

            • noseinabk

              Together we shall triumph

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Together we shall triumph

    • Rita Gregory

      I got to see Bowie live back in 1976, best show ever!

      • KJP in Portland

        Oh my…1976 wa my 8th grade graduation and my dear Mom stuck me with Captain and Tenille tickets, oh lord!! roflmao. But starting in ’77, I got to see the cool bands when they came through town.

        • Rita Gregory

          Then I’m about 5 yrs older. Captain and Tenille bahahahahahahahaha!

          • KJP in Portland

            I know, my best friend and I were like, embarrassed. She was HOT at least. Her husband was always a bit strange! I always liked older girls too 😉

  • Phil de Fontenay

    I am lovin’ this! Thank you Jeff and Tony.

  • ShannonE

    Congratulations, Tony on your new position at Raw Story. When will your book be published? I’m looking forward to it!

  • Rita Gregory

    Who is “sputnik” and why are they harassing wisecracker, first post sorted by best?

    • KJP in Portland

      I love the new pic, Rita! (((hugs)))

      • Rita Gregory

        (((hugs))) Thanks! It’s a very old pic but, I figure I’m on here so much maybe it will inspire me to get up and lose some weight. Not that I’ll look 30 yrs younger but it can’t hurt! 😀

        • KJP in Portland

          I’m sure you are lovely Rita, in body and in spirit!

          • Rita Gregory

            Awww Thanks.

            • KJP in Portland

              If you only knew my likes and preferences, you’d hug me 🙂 Our generations will never get old!

            • jeff
            • Rita Gregory

              Thanks jeff. Too bad there are no meter maid jobs in my tiny town. 🙂

            • jeff

              It’s ok. Meter-maids, whilst only doing their job, are nearly universally despised here in San Francisco. They do, however, generate quite the revenue stream for the City..

            • KJP in Portland

              I always had to race to feed the damn meter when I worked on Post and Polk Sts. back in ’87. They’d ticket me quick!

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      Not sure, but they sound like they may be Russian.

      • Rita Gregory

        Actual LOL!

    • Sidney18511

      Didn’t see what Sputnik wrote but I did see wisecracker post earlier that as a sclion member he/she realizes that they have been part of a scam and have already made an appointment to demand his funds back.

      • Rita Gregory

        They said “You’ve just given the game away. Nice troll while it lasted, though.”
        So now I guess we are all supposed to wonder about WISEcracker? Nice try Sputnik troll.

    • Robert Eckert

      Brand new account, first post is an attack. I would assume troll.

      • KJP in Portland

        That SoS person is off his / her rocker. The Thailand-thing creeps me out. We all know what American, or European guys go there for. So, that more or less, to me, makes the guy an oxymoron.

        • Rita Gregory

          Really, first he insults gay people then says he’s in Thailand? WTH?

          • KJP in Portland

            I know, creepy…real creepy. Kinda like da cult!

            • Rita Gregory

              Well then they fit right in!

            • KJP in Portland

              I’ve read too much about the child and porno-prostitution trafficking there. It sickens my heart.

            • Rita Gregory

              Just makes you cry doesn’t it? 🙁

            • KJP in Portland

              So much of that going on in corners of the World. I agree, it makes me sad and angry both. Human slavery really gets me fired up!

  • KJP in Portland

    Many had too much cheer and candy and now it’s the sugar-crash! Night crew is here manning the Bunker! 🙂

  • TXCowgirl

    Shhh! Be vewy, vewy quiet. Don’t wake the bunker. Zzzzz………

    • KJP in Portland

      lol!

    • Barbara Angel

      Its 5.25pm in Melbourne Australia, Wake Up!!!!

    • DodoTheLaser

      Sorry if I woke you up, but is that a sushi on the plate in your avy?

      • TXCowgirl

        It is the eye of a Cremello horse.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Thank you!

  • KJP in Portland

    I better get a fresh pot of coffee going for the night crew. Dodo should be here soon!

  • DodoTheLaser

    I understand there is statute of limitations on assault and battery, but man…
    COB is really asking for justice, the real kind.
    Thank you Jeff and Karen.

    • KJP in Portland

      Did you get any kids for Halloween. We got one (1). Sad.

      • DodoTheLaser

        It’s been raining here all day, so most people rescheduled Halloween festivities to the next year.

        • KJP in Portland

          This was the first year it hasn’t rained in several on Halloween. Oregon just rains, 9 months out of the year. That’s why the women’s skin complexion is so nice here. And they’re warm and snuggly all the cool year round!

          • Jimmy Threetimes

            i wants to go to there

          • Rita Gregory

            I lived on the coast of Oregon for about a year in the early eighties and it rained for about ten and a half months. When the sun came out it was breathtakingly beautiful. I loved the temperature range, nice and cool.

            • KJP in Portland

              You need to come back and visit! I’m going to retire to Astoria when the time comes.

            • Rita Gregory

              Alas, I’m too poor to travel and with a disabled husband (inoperable back problems) and a mom with cancer it makes it almost impossible to get out for an evening, much less take a trip! 🙂

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              I’ll be praying for you and your family.

            • Rita Gregory

              Thanks Jimmy 3T. Hubby does ok but if he does too much he pays for it in pain. Mom is doing fantastic! The dr.s prognosis was six weeks to three months, but that was almost ten years ago, she’s a genuine miracle. 🙂

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Wow. They say that oncologists will sometimes give a grim prognosis to make themselves look good when you beat it, but ten years over 6 months is outstanding. Very glad to hear that.

            • Rita Gregory

              She is stage 4 for ten years. She had tumors in breast, lung and bone. In fact she was diagnosed after stepping onto her front porch and her femor shattered. She had ignored the lump in her breast for 6 years! After surgery to remove the breast and repair her leg they started her on a pill like Tamoxifin. Six weeks after surgery she went to a healing service at her church. I’m thinking well, if it makes her feel better who am I to say anything. Imagine our surprise when at her next oncology appointment the dr. says the tumors in the lungs were no longer there and the bone were clear too. I will never underestimate the power of faith again. The doctors said there was no explanation but divine intervention.

            • Rita Gregory

              I forgot to mention she refused chemo and radiation. She’s a rebel. 🙂

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Sometimes there are no answers, and if it can be attributed to faith, there is nothing wrong with that. But to go with only hormone treatments and surgery, that’s a brave woman. God bless.

            • KJP in Portland

              God Bless!

            • GlibWog

              Oh Rita.. Bless your mom’s heart.. sending love to your mama, you and your family. Trust me I know all to well …. sigh.. smooches

            • Rita Gregory

              No offense taken. 🙂

            • Rita Gregory

              Astoria is a cool place! I lived in Manzanita. I remember someone had one of those portable signs with the letters you could re-arrange. Some smart-ass had re-arranged them to spell Tazmania. Lol, the best thing was no one ever changed it back the whole year I was there.!

            • KJP in Portland

              The whole stretch between Astoria and Manzanita (25 miles or so, I just love!). My uncle has a place down near DePoe Bay, but I like the north-north coast the best!

            • KJP in Portland

              I’m sorry Rita. The VA needs to operate on my back and I need to work and not take some 6 weeks off for it. I know back problems and I am sorry your husband is suffering through his condition. I hope at least he gets some function with a little help from the pain pills. They’re the only damn thing that helps true back pain (bones, joints, vertebrae). I’m not speaking muscular pain, but pure bone on bone type pain. Pain pills are about all there is that works worth a crap.

            • KJP in Portland

              And, I hope your Mom is as comfortable as can be and can enjoy many more days with you! I’ll pray for her. Yeah, I have a God. I don’t push it. I let anyone believe what they want; it’s their right and I respect that.

            • Rita Gregory

              Mom is doing really well and credits her faith in God for that. Thanks for your prayers.

            • KJP in Portland

              I bet she’s right. I hope the cancer slows way down and she has a few great years to be left with us.

            • Rita Gregory

              You can see her story a little down thread in a reply to Jimmy three times. I wouldn’t have beleived it if I hadn’t been there. 🙂

            • Rita Gregory

              I wouldn’t wish back problems on anyone after watching my husband go through it. Sorry to hear you deal with it too.

      • Robert Eckert

        We got tons, both from our neighborhood and from across the line in the city of Detroit. They come out to the burbs because their own neighborhoods aren’t safe for it, which is sad, but for one day there is no black and white, just kids and candy.

  • Lady Squash

    I would recommend not engaging and remembering Good Roads and Fair Weather. I know you are in a different position, but when I get calls from the Church about doing my next service, I say something like–Well, ya know I am very happy. I’ve found God and I am a Methodist now. The silence is lovely. Click.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Good strategy!

    • KJP in Portland

      KUDOS!

    • DodoTheLaser

      Someone called us from the Freewinds 2 years ago – I just told her politely that she is talking to a declared SP, no one in my family is a scientologist anymore and we are doing well. Worked well too.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Just to remind everyone of COB’s legacy:

    • KJP in Portland

      It’s just the beginning, the sweet beginning. The dominos are all lined up and I see a giant tsunami in the distance!

      • DodoTheLaser

        Yes, Sir.

  • mo-ron hubbard

    “THE BUNKER: The Church is critical of us — does that mean they have overts against us?

    JEFFERSON: Ha, ha. No, this is one of those
    principles that somehow doesn’t apply when you are talking about
    Hubbard, or the Church, or Miscavige. Hubbard was very critical of
    psychiatrists and medicos, but no one even thinks it was because he had
    overts. And Miscavige is critical of nearly everyone — but of course has
    no overts.”

    To me that is the most telling piece if information. It applies to the members but not to the cult leaders. It seems to me that every cult has this in common. Usually the cult justifies this by saying that the leaders are “so much higher than you” that why it doesn’t apply to them.

    Words can not describe how insideous this bullshit is. These people need to be put in jail.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Well hello and thank you!

    • GlibWog

      Hi Mo… Welcome to the Bunker..The more the merrier!

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      >>>” Usually the cult justifies this by saying that the leaders are “so much higher than you” that’s why it doesn’t apply to them.”

      Tommy butt-boy Davis: ” YOU! don’t have the fucking rank to ask about Shelly! ” — to Leah, upon her asking Dave McSavage, “Where’s Shelly?”

      • Mooser

        All of that is true, but don’t forget the mileage many disgraced leaders get from appearing broken before their flock, issuing an non-apology-cum-denial, and begging for the congregation’s forgiveness. It seems to work especially well for evangelical leaders and Republican Representatives caught with their hands in the contract-jar, but the technique is available to MissCabbage, should he choose to use it. And good ol’ “and” would be better than that ridiculous cum, but it looks fancy. And fine, like my body.

  • DodoTheLaser

    And so it begins, or rather escalates.

    Did you notice more new posters here today? Same goes for ESMB.

    The gates are WIDE OPEN now.

    Please take time to read this:

    “The issue here is that once you realize that you are freed from a trap
    it immediately “keys in” all the times you were stomped (with army
    boots) hardly into the trap.

    By freeing you, you suddenly are overwhelmed by all of this hate (or
    grief) for the suppressors and you want justice for all of those
    suppressors that have kept you in this cowed state.

    This is the furthest level or the most beneficial aspect of
    $cientrollogy that I felt actually touched me and changed me, but in the
    end the wins of this has to be taken within context that this cult
    destroyed my parents’ marriage by parasiting its income when it had 3+
    children ultimately destroying my childhood and misleading me as a
    teenager by forcing me into an economically poor situation.

    So….. let’s just take some examples of this, “you are being suppressed
    and don’t know it until you are freed and know that you are free and
    suddenly realize you were being suppressed your whole life and you are
    angry and wanting vengeance (or something you just don’t know what you
    are, just very angry and outraged) what are you supposed to do?”

    The very concept that freeing someone suddenly throws all of the heavy
    mental baggage they were not able to remove during that suppression
    suddenly comes flooding back whether they like it or not (because hey,
    it happened) it actually works out that way!! Now that I’m free of the
    cult, 12 years later I’ll go experience some people or places on this
    planet that Ron is/was totally ignorant of and realize Ron is full of
    **** and he was an evil man trying to create a false reality.

    Except that once you realize Ron was an ugly man that is forcing himself
    off on you in every way: ” I am a god, worship me,” I am not an ugly
    man trying to be important, watch my left hand while I use this right
    hand to take your wallet, I’m a nuclear physicist, make your mom sign
    away your enslavement to me.”

    This guy is an ugly man, with an ugly soul, with an ugly life (that he
    lied about to make it look like he was not an ugly con artist) and he is
    not only ugly because he had an ugly face but because he chose to be an
    ugly – over competitive con-artist. He even asked to be electrocuted by
    the emeter which he created [stole]. He knew he was being evil and took
    his science fiction con artistry too far – way too far.

    I hate this man. He trapped me into a lower income and less opportunity
    life. So after decompressing from being “deep fried in crazy” as a young
    man I have realized this guy, this guy, this evil piece of trash,
    ruined my life and he destroyed my parents marriage.

    The damage of $cienfraudlogy is so deep and penetrating that I still to
    this day keep shedding off layers of BS when I talk to someone I see
    that has never been trapped by this cult created by an ugly man trying
    to be important.

    Every time I shed off a layer of BS that came from this ugly man’s cult I
    feel like a heavy green rain of grief floods my life. I should feel
    happy since I am free now right?? But then why do I feel like the green
    rain of death and grief just washed over me when I talk to a very happy
    human with goals and dreams and a bright future ahead of them that has
    never been a victim of this cult?

    I see the pure soul in front of me that has never been trapped and is
    free and it is like a mirror of the me of my past but I was trapped in
    an evil illusion but now I am not so why do I get so sad when I realize I
    am free? Because it reminds me that he totally succeeded in tricking me
    and my father’s later life into worshiping him and giving his money to
    him.

    It’s now beyond a spiritual issue, it is now an issue of injustice but
    he is dead. This ugly man needs to get culled from history. His ugly
    face and his ugly scam needs to get erased. The cult needs to get
    declared illegally operating as a mafia disguised as a religion and
    disbanded and their tax exempt status removed.”

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?33705-The-end-of-endless-Int-ci-principal&p=869588&viewfull=1#post869588

    • Mooser

      “And so it begins, or rather escalates.”

      Look, I am not known for overweening optimism (as befits a creature who knows they’re going to fall off every year) but you know what? I think the battle has already been won, and all the rest is mopping up. It’ll be a messy mopping-up, a bulge-like battle prehaps, but the tide has turned. About this I am both adamant and sanguine. If ‘adamantly sanguine’ is an oxymoron, I withdraw it and will provide substitutes, since I’m not really sure what either of those words mean.

  • EnthralledObserver
    • DodoTheLaser

      Whoa!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIEX001ew0#t=158

      Scientology – teaching you to postulate the marriage through the cute truistic videos,
      while setting no good example.

      1. David and Shelly Miscavige
      2. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard
      3. Almost every Sea Org member
      4. The children of all of the above.

    • Sydjazz

      Time to play?

      • EnthralledObserver

        You can’t see what I can – here is a screen cap…

        • EnthralledObserver

          These have been up for 9 hours now.

        • Rita Gregory

          Ooooooo! VWD! 😀

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Bravissima, Enthralled O !!!
          Fantastic!! I just wanna wipe that smirking smile right off that mug of Tasmania’s.
          Please post news about this endeavor, when you can!

    • Rita Gregory

      I didn’t get this last night when I checked it but, tonight a little button came up on that page which said locating you. What is that?

      • EnthralledObserver

        Not sure… I’m no facebook expert… just a novice.

        • Mooser

          Me, myself, and I, all three of us, would never, ever go near Facebook. For any and every reason.
          But I have been subjected to the ultimate digital indignity! When I was in a band, somebody apparently opened a Facebook site in my name without telling me, let alone asking me. I’ve never been there, but they tell me it’s nice.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        the software is wanting your zipcode, for “location” – then, when you go somewhere, if you turn “location” on, then your FB wall will have a little blurb, RitaG at Zenz Pizzeria. for example.

      • grundoon

        Facebook wants to know your whereabouts and everything else about you. The information will be used to make Mark Zuckerberg rich(er).

    • Snuzey

      Gareth the Scion from Tasmania clearly hasnt got to OT3 yet…..:

      “Oh by the way George, there is nothing in any Scientology teachings about a character called Xenu.
      This is a story told by people who attack Scientology. It’s made up. It’s as fictional as L. Ron Hubbard’s fiction books.”

      Wonder what will happen should he ever get to it!

      • grundoon

        It’s in Hubbard’s own handwriting.

        Yes it is made up – by Ron – and yes it is as fictional as his fiction books… which by the way give you much more entertainment for your dollar than any of the OT materials.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Dianetics and Scientology – when truisms substitute the substance, because money are good.

  • Sydjazz

    http://vimeo.com/75299453 scientology melbourne

    • DodoTheLaser

      So cute, awesome and so fucking staged!

      That’s what they would like to believe they are.
      But they know their are living a lie. They know they staged it.
      Almost everyone in that video. But they hope. Not for long.

      We will hear from some of them here soon. Mark my words.

      • FromPolandWithLove

        hmmm I have serious doubts about kitchen shown in this promotional video. Meat instead of rice and beans???

        • DodoTheLaser

          Some orgs do better then others. But it’s irrelevant. This video is the cheesiest PR ever.

          • FromPolandWithLove

            I agree, I get fake vibe from the first sight.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Makes it two of us.

            • Mooser

              “I get fake vibe from the first sight.”

              All right Poland, you’ve exposed yourself! What have you counterfeited? And we’ve also had some very, very disturbing reports from infants!

              Wait a minute! Remember, one of the more erudite and knowledgeable commenters (a club which should never accept me as a member) mentioned the “repressed memories” child abuse legal debacle as events which were advantageous to Scientology, causing the US legal system (I use the word generously) to take a ‘hands off’ approach to Scientology? Maybe that explains, to some extent, why Scientologists are so enamored of baby-rape accusations as a form of defense?

        • EnthralledObserver

          That’s not Sea Org food – that’s for public, the restaurant, the food sold to them at excessive prices – top notch nosh!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      How prophetic that they turn the lights out on Scientology at the end of the video.

    • SignsOfSuccess

      Not to invalidate Melbourne but in Italy Milano org, Padova Org and Roma org are more packed by Scientologists.

      • Mooser

        “packed by Scientologists.”

        ROTFL!! MSJAO, if you must know! “There ain’t nobody here ‘cept us Scientologists!”
        Like the max. occ. sign says: ” Occupation of these premises by even a fraction of its legal capacity is a grandiose fantasy.”

    • jmh

      Is it just me or does that expression say, How long do I have to hold this fake ass smile so I don’t get reported uplines?

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      I wonder how many of those people are actors paid to smile big.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Courtesy of Andy Porter

  • Sherbet

    Good morning. I’m up early (coughing with the remainder of a rotten cold), so where do I go? The Bunker.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Naturally… as do we all… 🙂

      • Sherbet

        Thank God Tony comes here, too, or we’d all just be shuffling our feet, waiting for our fix.

        • DodoTheLaser

          Or we would become our own fix.

        • EnthralledObserver

          I know… it’s become a bit of a bad habit for me to just hang around unproductively until Tony puts up the new post for the day – sometimes I wait for ages.

          • FromPolandWithLove

            Procrastination rules ;p

          • Mooser

            Yup, and yup. What I do is make it a rule to read all my other news websites first, and then turn to the Bunker for the creme de la menthe and coupe de grass

    • FromPolandWithLove

      In Poland we have noon. I hear church bells.

      • EnthralledObserver

        The bells say it’s time… for Tony’s new story of the day!

      • Mooser

        You know, there’s another guy from Oregon who calls himself “KJP” on the comment thread.

  • EnthralledObserver

    it’s here

  • Mooser

    “He’s told his tale of getting into and out of the church…”

    Hey, what can you say? Some people are good at starting stuff, and some people are good at seeing things through to the end. It takes both types to run a successful, enterprise, and frankly, the latter type is more prevelant than the former. Mr. Hawkins should not feel that he has failed.

  • Eugene K

    I know I said I was going to comment something on this post, but it’s proving to be difficult to arrive at a clear response on all the things that Jefferson has brought up. I still find his presentation rather muddled and in some instances not exactly correct, but I do find cause for concerns over Hubbard’s writings in this area especially on the subject of “blow-offs.”

    I was going to say that Hubbard does start out the reference on blow-offs by referencing departures that are SUDDEN AND RELATIVELY UNEXPLAINED, but then really as you read through the reference it seems like he refers to departures in general. Also, toward the middle he does seem to make an exception: “… certainly one can treat people so badly that they have no choice but to leave…” but then in a paragraph below it sort of reverses the “exception” by saying:

    “People leave because of their own overts and withholds. That is the factual fact and the hardbound rule. A man with a clean heart can’t be hurt. The man or woman who must must must become a victim and depart is departing because of his or her own overts and withholds.”

    This logic would obviously suit someone on the abusive end of things which I have observed in my life personally. The abuser feels free to do whatever he or she wishes while if you try to take off or do something to stop the abuse – it becomes all your fault and there is something wrong with you. And the logic extends to the observers of abuse who may try to do something, not just the recipients.

    Jefferson seems to imply that Ron Hubbard does not provide the logic for his stated principle, but he does:

    “It is a rather noble commentary on man that when a person finds himself, as he believes, incapable of restraining himself from injuring a benefactor he will defend the benefactor by leaving. This is the real source of the blow-off.”

    I think departures due to overts and withholds do exist, but is it the ONLY reason someone would decide to take off? Common sense would suggest that there could be plenty of reasons why one would take off from a relationship or a job or Scientology for that matter. If Hubbard indeed narrowed down his “theory” to SUDDEN and RELATIVELY UNEXPLAINED, blowing due to o/w’s would make more sense, but definitely not in a general sense. Someone could leave a job for example due to lack of games conditions (i.e. boring) or for a better opportunity (as Jefferson himself had noted) or even due to being overwhelmed like the job is too much or the culture at work is just too suppressive like demanding that you give your 110% while paying you to barely keep a float and treating you like crap on top of it (does that describe the Sea Org or something?).

    And that’s another point. What about departing as a form of DISCONNECTION which was one of the suggested solutions in later references when dealing with a source of suppression? Or what about blowing due to MISUNDERSTOODS? Or I even found yet another references (which I actually really liked!) titled:

    HCOB 6 May 1970 BLOWS—AUDITING PAST EXTERIOR

    This references starts like so:

    “I have found a major cause of blows from classes, orgs and Scientology.

    Overts are of course a primary cause but many have overts and don’t blow, so why do such people blow?

    A case audited past Exterior, particularly if it is not acked, tends to get stuck on Exteriorizing. This can (but doesn’t always by any means) cause the person to take himself away!”

    Anyone interested can find that reference and read it in full, but basically this is not hard to understand in common reality. I’m sure anyone can recall feeling like they are just “stuck” and “closed in” and wanting to just get out and “expand” – you know take off for a greater future, bigger environment, more things to do – whatever the case may be. That’s like wanting to exteriorize from being interiorized in an environment that just feels too “compressed.” It may not be an exact analogy, but I think it demonstrates the concept.

    There is definitely something that can be “dug into” on this subject to explore how such policies influenced the culture in the group.

    As far as overt->motivator->justification, in my view these things really do exist in human behavior and it is not that difficult to observe. However, the way these concepts have been used in Scientology groups is again a subject for discussion. In general, the culture that Jefferson described in his interview DOES exist. I have observed and experienced it for myself and found it appalling and in some cases border line criminal. Staff seem to be at liberty to commit overts against parishioners (and apparently each other) while you are somehow always at fault, even for having recorded some experience of injustice in the first place. And there are even MORE ways in use to make people wrong than what Jefferson cited. I remember I was expressing my concern over something that happened with me to another staff member and that person’s response was: “But who is holding it [experience] there?” I mean imagine, if you get robbed or something and you come to file a report to the police, and they’ll be like: “just quit holding that experience in your head and move on…” What would be your common sense conclusion in this situation: Holy sh*t, this place is run by criminals!

    So I am definitely seeing a cause for concern here and this is something that I plan to spend more time looking into to assess a cause and effect relationship in the situation that has developed in Scientology.

    • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

      Hi Eugene, very thoughtful post. I can tell that you have seen a lot in your scientology experience, which I know has some real high points, but it sounds like a few low points as well. You have left a lot here to ponder, and I probably will have some questions after I think over this some more. But I wanted to quickly make a response. I agree completely that there are a lot of different reasons why people do what they do (from changing jobs to losing their religion). I would add that, when it comes to making attributions about why people do what they do, not only are there a lot of different reasons for why someone does something, but there are usually many variables and multiple reasons that are in operation at the same time. Unfortunately, it seems that, when people make attributions about why someone did something, there is a tendency to adopt a “It’s just that” or “it’s nothing but that” mentality, as if the reason someone did something is “just” one thing and only that thing. Politicians do this all the time about the opposing party. I TRY and think about the different variables or reasons in a “pie chart,” kinda way, in which I first try and figure out what all the reasons are for why someone did something (i.e., how many explanatory pieces are there in the pie?), and then try and figure out which are the biggest or most influential reasons for why someone did something (i.e., which are the biggest/most influential explanatory pieces?). What do you think about that approach? Again, I must admit that I have not read nearly as much as you have of LRHs source material, so I must ask, is there any equivalent for such an approach in LRH’s material?

      • Eugene K

        Yes, the thought is definitely not complete in my comment because it is just my entrance point in evaluating apparent inconsistencies or things on which I feel some disagreement. This is after I spent the past year in a massive project comparing the new batch of books released by Miscavige in 2007 with the originals from the 70’s. I figured I needed to know what Ron Hubbard did and did not write to be able to evaluate properly.

        Just for FYI, this reference on “blow-offs” is NOT in the original batch of basic books. The original “Introduction to Scientology Ethics” book was tiny comparing to the thick and brick heavy one in 2007. The Bunker failed to draw that distinction: in the previous post by Jefferson they featured 1970’s version, and in this post they are drawing stuff out of 2007 one. I don’t like 2007 materials because they are booby trapped with “corrections” most of which are in fact various alterations of what Ron Hubbard actually wrote. This is a big subject in its own right. I briefly looked over the source references for “blow-offs” which looked basically the same so I proceeded in evaluating the actual logic.

        Also, I see what you mean by “pie chart.” This is what it was supposed to be in D&S initially with the concept of survival across the various dynamics and infinity valued logic. That’s why I was very surprised when Jefferson picked that – the ethics formula – to demonize. That’s one of the most useful and commons sense things in my view which is not so much the case with the subjects that he brought up in this post.

        I do see that with some of the later “technology” things became a little more “absolute.” – i.e. blow-off = overt, sick = PTS (connection to a suppressive person) – these absolutes left no room for contemplation or a wider view of all the factors involved.

        • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

          Hey Eugene, the writings of LRH’s could certainly be the subject of an entire college level course, if not an academic career. Surely someone has undertaken this project. I when I get to it, I’ll check the references in Lawrence Wright’s book, which I read when it came out. Its well researched and it seems like there should be such a reference. I thought that he was fair in his treatment of LRH, but I would be interested in your point of view to balance my own confirmation bias. Do you know of any online resources to LRHs original work (before DM corrupted it)? I think I saw where someone posted such a link, but with well over 1,000 comments, I don’t think I could find it easily.

          I also agree that there is something to the idea of “pulling something in,” which in my way of thinking usually represents the rough edge of a person’s personality, poor social skills, or even the negative side effects of an addiction. It is an important thing to be able to have some self awareness about, and I think I can see how, in the right auditors hands, that could be a helpful aspect of the tech. But I don’t think that that is unique to the tech and exists in other forms of relationships, including good therapy. Of course, if it is only used as a form of mind and behavioral control, or is only a one way street, you have what DM created, but as I think you know, I am under the impression that LRH actually created it, but I am trying to keep my confirmation bias in check while I try and figure it out from the source material, which I need your help on, if you have the time (I kinda don’t, now you got me curious!).

          • Eugene K

            Yes, Sir Hemet, there is nothing unusual in the idea that an individual carries some responsibility for the conditions he finds himself in, and this notion is not just limited to Scientology either. Obviously, these concepts can be taken into extreme including by the critics.

            You can see some basic information on the original books here:
            http://www.truelrh.com/

            You can download some pdf’s of text Transcripts here (Library section):
            http://www.stss.nl/

            Just keep in mind that those are transcripts, not one for one copies of the actual books. And it looks like some of those are OCR results from scanning the books – I found some typos here and there that are not in the actual books but looks like something that may be due to faulty OCR results. Also, for some reason the website doesn’t seem to load when I was trying to access it when writing this comment. Hopefully, it’ll be working ok by the time you get to it.

            The books I recommend you to read if you wanted to get a general idea:
            A New Slant on Life
            Fundamentals of Thought

            • Sir Hemet TC Burlwood, VIII

              Hi Eugene, I am interested in “Fundamentals of Thought” but when I went to the stss.nl website, it stated that I must agree that I a scientologist to enter the website “under the penalty of perjury.” Not going to chance that! I found a 1956 edition on lermanet.com, which looks like a first edition. I took a few minutes to read the first couple of pages. LRH (who I did not know had a Ph.D., Is that true as far you know?) really comes out big, with some very dramatic claims! In your estimation, is this an appropriate edition?
              Very full day, so it won’t be till this evening (hopefully) that I will be able to respond (although I will probably check back in).

            • Eugene K

              Yeah, I can see what you mean about the claims. I never really focused my attention on those. I look for things that I can use and sort of skip all the rest. I haven’t read this first edition since I never had access to it until now, but I’m sure it would be the same as the one from 1970’s. By the way, thanks for the tip! I really needed the first edition for my project of comparing materials.

  • Sydjazz

    Honesty? Gotta love the tassie scions