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NEW TODAY: Memoir with shocking claims by notorious Scientology spy, Merrell Vannier

Merrell_VannierThere was a time when coming out with a book about Scientology meant almost certain litigation and harassment. From 1970 (George Malko, Scientology: The Now Religion) to 1990 (Jon Atack, A Piece of Blue Sky), and those in between — Paulette Cooper (1971), Cyril Vosper (1971), Robert Kaufman (1972), Roy Wallis (1976), Russell Miller (1987), and Bent Corydon (1987) — every author who came out with a book about the secretive and litigious organization saw his or her book sued and ultimately made difficult to find.

But things have changed. A wave of former Scientology members, including former high-ranking executives, came out of the organization in the 2000s and wrote self-published books about their experiences, including Marc Headley, Jefferson Hawkins, Nancy Many, Amy Scobee, and three books by Mark “Marty” Rathbun. None of them were sued.

And then, for the first time, expansive books about Scientology were issued by major publishing houses, written by Rolling Stone writer Janet Reitman (Inside Scientology, 2011) and New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright (Going Clear, 2013).

Despite the great variety distinguishing those books, nearly all of their authors shared a similar goal: To reveal the inner workings of Scientology and to expose what they believed were shocking examples of control and abuse of its members.

Unique among them, however, was Marty Rathbun. He had spent years as one of Scientology’s top enforcers, someone who dished out the kind of surveillance and harassment that the other authors had been subject to. When Rathbun came out with his third book, 2013’s Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior, it offered a truly unique opportunity. Here, finally, one of the people who had overseen Scientology’s most troubling activities was about to reveal what he’d seen and done.

If you were around when we reviewed the book, you know we were disappointed on that score. While Rathbun’s book contained much that was fascinating and helped fill in some important gaps in the historical record (especially its final chapters with crucial information about Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard’s last days), Rathbun continued to see himself as a righteous “warrior” who was still fighting on the side of the angels as he recalled overseeing Scientology’s court fights against dissenters.

Now, there’s another rather spectacular opportunity for Scientology disclosure, and it’s just being released today: A new self-published memoir, Arrows in the Dark, written by another of Scientology’s most infamous and notorious figures, the disbarred and disgraced former attorney and Guardian’s Office spy, Merrell Vannier (pictured, above).

 
ArrowsInTheDarkCover

 

Vannier’s name doesn’t come up much these days, but his story was one of the most stunning in a period when revelations about the lengths to what Scientology would go to punish its perceived enemies were rocking the country.

We’re going to quickly review the public record on that history so you can see what a unique position Vannier is in and why a tell-all memoir by him could be one of the most interesting things about Scientology in recent years.

To set the scene, it’s important to remember that L. Ron Hubbard took the management of his organization to sea in 1966 after both the United States and the United Kingdom had become too hot for him. After briefly trying to take over Rhodesia and failing, he figured he could only avoid unfriendly governments by sailing the Mediterranean in a small armada, with him in control as “commodore” at the helm of a yacht that came to be known as the Apollo. That same year, 1966, he also created a new inner elite group, the “Guardian’s Office,” which eventually became one of the most sophisticated intelligence operations on the planet.

It was the GO’s job to hunt down threats to L. Ron Hubbard and his wife, Mary Sue, and neutralize them. And in 1973, Hubbard gave the GO a whopper of a new assignment. While away from the Apollo for ten months, hiding out in Queens from French agents who were searching for him in Portugal and Morocco (long story), Hubbard wrote up a scheme he called the Snow White Program. With it, he wanted his agents to hunt down — legally and otherwise — documents about him on file in countries around the world. By the next year, 1974, after Hubbard had returned to the Apollo and it was getting turned away from more and more ports in the Mediterranean and Atlantic because of its bad reputation, GO operatives were honing their skills for infiltrating offices and securing documents with numerous forms of espionage.

Hubbard tried to return to land in the United States in 1974, but was tipped that federal agents were waiting for him in Charleston, South Carolina, so the Apollo spent an additional year bouncing around in the Caribbean before the commodore finally tired of his private navy and set anchor for good in the Bahamas. He had come up with another plot — to invade Florida. After setting up in a hotel in Daytona, he launched a scheme to take over the Gulf Coast town of Clearwater. Hiding behind the name “United Churches of Florida,” his agents purchased the iconic Fort Harrison Hotel downtown, as well as the nearby Clearwater Bank building to become the first parts of a new command center for Scientology, the “Flag Land Base.”

The mayor of Clearwater, Gabe Cazares, was notified that such important downtown locations had changed hands, and then he noticed something strange — the “United Churches of Florida” were guarding their new properties with men carrying night sticks and cans of mace. When he asked them about it, they said they had “to protect themselves.” It seemed bizarre for a sleepy vacation beach town.

Eventually, later in 1975, Cazares was tipped to the truth: His town was under invasion by the Church of Scientology. He made a stink about it on a local radio show, and in turn the Guardian’s Office swung into action, creating the “Mayor Cazares Handling Project.” Scientology called a press conference for January 30, 1976, and put out a “fact sheet” on the mayor, following Hubbard’s dictum that it was always better to attack than to defend. “The sheet challenged Cazares’ statements on his place of birth and educational background, questioned the mayor’s involvement in Clearwater land deals and said he had violated city law by not filing a financial disclosure form,” the St. Petersburg Times reported.

The next month, the church filed a $1 million defamation suit against Cazares, but he and his wife filed their own libel and slander suits against Scientology for the distorted contents of the “fact sheet.” They chose a local attorney named Pat Doherty to represent them. (Documents also show that Cazares, that March, spoke with the FBI about Scientology’s invasion, which, at least from where we sit, seems pretty understandable.)

Also in March, a Missouri man named Merrell Vannier came to town, looking for work as a lawyer while his acceptance to the Florida Bar was pending. What none of the places he applied to realized was that for at least two years, he’d been a secret volunteer for the Guardian’s Office. And, according to the Florida Bar, the GO did what it could to protect anyone from knowing who Merrell really was. From the Bar’s findings…

To protect Vannier’s identity as he collected information, he was assigned the code name “Ritz.” To ensure Vannier’s “cover,” the Guardian Organization designed an elaborate project to cover up his membership and participation in Scientology activities. Demonstrative of the insidiousness of this activity, part of the project included the infiltration of the Tallahassee office of The Florida Bar to remove and delete incriminating portions of his Bar application and replace it with an altered application.

With his true identity protected, Vannier sought a job with the State Attorney’s Office in St. Petersburg, even offering to work for free. He got in, worked there for two months, and in the meantime, as part of the Mayor Cazares Handling Project, his wife Fran got a job working as a volunteer for Gabe’s campaign that fall for Congress. Fran’s involvement put Vannier in proximity to the mayor.

After being let go by the State Attorney’s Office, Vannier then found work with a firm that had represented Cazares in the past. According to the Bar findings, Vannier then began asking Cazares about his representation in the libel suit against Scientology. In December, Cazares was dropped by Doherty, and Cazares then hired Vannier to be his attorney.

For the Florida Bar, there was nothing equivocal about it — for most of a year, Merrell Vannier, hiding his real identity, and with the help of his wife, had maneuvered so that he could become the attorney of record for the mayor of Clearwater in his lawsuit against the Church of Scientology, without notifying Cazares or his wife that he was, in fact, a secret agent for the church.

Vannier then used that position to gain access to other legal matters — he convinced the attorney for former Scientologist Nan McLean, for example, to give him access to a huge collection of legal documents in her case, which subsequently and mysteriously disappeared.

“During his representation of Mr. and Mrs. Cazares, using the code name ‘Ritz,’ Vannier secretly channelled confidential information concerning the Cazares and their litigation back to the Guardian Organization and was credited by the organization as obtaining ‘excellent results’,” the Bar found.

Then, in July 1977, the FBI raided Scientology in Los Angeles and Washington after Michael Meisner, one of the Snow White burglars, had given himself up and turned state’s evidence. Vannier subsequently vanished, but it was some time before the documents in the raid were sifted through and references to “Ritz” turned up and the truth about Merrell Vannier emerged.

Vannier and his wife faced possible jail terms when they each refused to cooperate with a subsequent grand jury investigation of Guardian’s Office activities in Tampa. Ultimately, neither was jailed for not cooperating, and neither was charged with any crimes. But the Florida Bar came down on Vannier with its heaviest possible penalty: permanent disbarment…

[Vannier’s] argument is that an attorney, who engages in unethical conduct on behalf of an organization that labels itself a church, has a First Amendment right to immunity from disciplinary proceedings. This idea is repugnant to the principles of the Constitution and the ethical standards of the legal profession….Not only did Merrell Vannier act in conflict with his client’s interests, his conduct in this matter is a perversion of his Oath and a defilement of the standards of our profession.

Believe us when we say this is a guy we want to hear from. And on several levels, his book delivers. Arrows in the Dark is an easy read and is skillfully paced. Although it’s self-published, Vannier has experience, with a self-published novel and several screenplays to his credit, according to his bio at the book’s website. [For now, scroll down and enter user ‘Preview’ and password ‘finddonalverzo’ to access the site.]

And he doesn’t disappoint as far as revealing new information about his spying activities, things that have never been made public before. In 1974, for example, two years before what happened in Clearwater, Vannier helped his spymaster, Don Alverzo, infiltrate the law offices of a firm representing the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which had just come out with a five-part series about Scientology.

Vannier captures vividly the excitement and danger of espionage as he gets into the building by taking a night janitor job, then has to purloin a key that will get Alverzo into the law offices they need to target so they can steal files for copying.

He also reveals that after he had been hired by Cazares, he used that position to run an operation on a Florida representative who was planning to introduce an anti-cult bill in Congress. Because Vannier was representing a client against Scientology, he was accepted as someone who could help the congressman get support for the bill. He was also introduced to the constituent, a doctor, who was pushing the legislation, and the ex-cult members (none of them former Scientologists) who planned to testify as witnesses. Convincing each of them that they needed to come clean with all of their “skeletons” before they could testify, each of them admitted to unseemly things in their past that Vannier then took to the congressman to convince him to drop the bill before those secrets got out, which he did.

Vannier also used his Cazares connection to get hooked up with what his handler, Alverzo, referred to as the “Anti-Religious Movement” — deprogrammers who were helping families recover their loved ones from destructive groups, sometimes with forcible encounters that qualified as kidnapping. Gaining the trust of leaders in the movement (again, as an attorney supposedly taking on Scientology), he would get word of an upcoming deprogramming, then feed that information to the group being targeted and to law enforcement so the planned intervention could be foiled and the deprogrammer arrested.

He also describes how he was used by the Guardian’s Office to transcribe tapes secretly made of author Paulette Cooper by private investigator Richard Bast in 1980. Cooper thought she and Bast were working for a wealthy man who hated Scientology and wanted information on it, but in reality Bast had lied to her and was working for Scientology in one of several elaborate schemes run against her. Vannier describes how he used information in the tapes to create questions for a Scientology attorney to ask Cooper in a deposition to trip her up, resulting in the dismissal of one of her lawsuits against Scientology.

Spying, infiltrating, double-crossing, and all in the name of a church. These are the kinds of disclosures that we were hoping to get from Rathbun in his book, and we’re glad that Vannier has brought them into the open.

We think Vannier will have some difficulty, however, winning over non-Scientology readers to his overall project, which is to recast his spying activities and vindicate not only himself but also Scientology with several surprising assertions. We’ve included the historical record of his acts and the Florida Bar’s findings here in part because you won’t find much of it in Arrows in the Dark. Instead, we get Vannier’s version of events, which portrays him as the victim of the incompetence of others or their nefarious conspiracies. We learn, for example…

— That Scientology was the subject of an FBI ‘COINTELPRO’ operation that involved planting agents in the church, and using Pulitzer-prize winning St. Petersburg Times reporter Bette Orsini as a front to launch a coordinated attack and make Scientology’s move into Clearwater controversial.

— That Gabe Cazares was actually an FBI operative who was part of that scheme and knew that Vannier was a Scientology agent and hired him anyway in an elaborate conspiracy to entrap him.

— That the FBI and/or the CIA’s planted agents also included current Scientology leader David Miscavige and top current or former executives like Norman Starkey, Bill Franks, Jimmy Mulligan, and his wife Ann Mulligan. The aim of this government operation was to replace the system of “checks and balances” L. Ron Hubbard intended to leave behind after his death with a dictatorship that is destroying the organization.

Vannier became an actual employee of the Guardian’s Office in 1980 — three years after the FBI raid — and then left it in 1982. He was disbarred in 1985. He remained a Church of Scientology member until 2012, when he was “declared” a suppressive person for starting a website, savingscientology.com, and running it under the name “admin.” The site argues that according to Scientology’s complex corporate structure, it’s possible for the special directors and trustees of the entities ruling the church to investigate and remove David Miscavige. Because he was declared, Vannier has lost all contact with his daughter Angie LaClaire, who had been a popular auditor at the Hollywood Celebrity Centre and remains loyal to the church today. By Scientology’s rules, she has been required to “disconnect” from her father and can have nothing to do with him.

Despite all that, Vannier remains passionately loyal to L. Ron Hubbard and his ideas. In various parts of the book, he describes the “wins” he’s had from auditing, the boost he got from “Study Tech” to help him get through law school, and even how he helped a friend survive a coma with the use of a Scientology “assist” (a form of faith healing).

“The technology involving use of an E-meter has been described, demonstrated, misinterpreted, and often lampooned in countless mainstream articles and television reports about the Church of Scientology. The fact is, it works,” Vannier assures us.

With that view in mind, Vannier re-examines Scientology history, defending Hubbard and an earlier version of the organization, and placing the blame for its current troubles on mismanagement that came in after Hubbard had gone into permanent seclusion in 1980 and then died in 1986. It’s a familiar theme among many recent defectors from the church who still ardently hold on to their loyalty to Hubbard.

We found it fascinating that someone who had been so involved in Scientology, including its covert operations and working at its Los Angeles headquarters, only heard the name “David Miscavige” for the first time on January 27, 1986, when Miscavige came out on stage at the Hollywood Palladium to announce the death of Hubbard three days earlier. Vannier says that right away, he realized that the young Sea Org leader was behind the puzzling management decisions that he felt were harming the organization.

He reveals one new story of Miscavige’s alleged abuse, as told to him by Terri Gamboa, a former Commodore’s Messenger who had grown up serving Scientology: “The event that triggered her departure occurred when Miscavige hauled a bunch of Int staff to watch another staffer be security checked in front of them. As the victim disclosed various transgressions and secrets, Miscavige at first derided him. Then he ordered the onlookers to spit in the confessor’s face, and they did, one-by-one. Terri was the only one who refused to do it. Miscavige glared at her, then walked out of the room. ‘I knew he would be gunning for me next. No one defies Miscavige.'”

For Vannier, Gamboa is key, because Hubbard named her a special director of the Church of Spiritual Technology (CST), one of the many entities created during Scientology’s complex reorganization in the early 1980s. Through his website savingscientology.com, Vannier and others have tried to find a way to locate the trustees and directors of those entities, or appeal to the state attorney general to force some kind of reckoning for Miscavige through the bylaws of CST’s founding documents.

Several times in the past, however, we have pointed out that Denise Brennan, who helped draw up those documents, told us they were a sham to make people think they were onto something that wasn’t really there.

“The people who think theyโ€™re following the power of control by looking at the lists of directors for CST are falling for the sham we set up,” Brennan told us in 2013. “I think the mistake people make is thinking that thereโ€™s some brilliance in this setup. It was only created to protect the assets.”

Brennan made it very clear to us before her untimely death last year: L. Ron Hubbard, with the help of Brennan and others, created Scientology’s byzantine structure as a way to keep his hundreds of millions of dollars out of the clutches of creditors, not because he wanted to install a system of “checks and balances.”

But we know it doesn’t matter what we think — a certain segment of current and former church members will continue to look for ways to oust Miscavige through Scientology’s bylaws, and the number is probably growing as more Scientologists sour on the current leader.

“By my estimate seventy-five percent of all Scientologists want to see a change in Scientology leadership. They keep a very low profile, though, many of them waiting for the right moment to spring into action,” Vannier writes. Well, that would certainly be fun to watch if it were to happen.

In the last chapters of the book, Vannier returns to thinking about his old Guardian’s Office handler, Don Alverzo, a man he admired greatly but about which he actually knew very little. Vannier now considers seriously the idea that Alverzo had actually been a government plant.

“Martiniano reiterated his 100 percent conviction that Alverzo was a spy, sent into the G.O. to bring about its downfall, put LRH on the run, and allow someone like Miscavige, who was also a plant, to take control,” Vannier says, turning for help to Tom Martiniano, one of the more unhinged members of “Milestone Two,” a web home for some of the most doctrinaire independent Scientologists. (Like the other accusations about people being “plants,” Arrows in the Dark offers no documentation or other forms of corroboration to back up those claims.)

Alverzo was the GO’s breaking-and-entering man in the Snow White capers and was also, Vannier believes, the “Jerry Levin” who roomed with Paulette Cooper for about four months in 1973 in order to gather intelligence on her. (Other former GO operatives told us this same thing as we were researching our book about Cooper, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely, which is coming out in May.)

But Vannier, with help from Martiniano, believes Alverzo’s role was even bigger — that he pushed the GO into illegal activities because he was an agent provocateur secretly working for the FBI and setting up Scientology for its raid.

We have no doubt that this theory will be popular at Milestone Two, but notably absent from Arrows in the Dark are references to Guardian’s Office documents seized in the 1977 raid which clearly show Mary Sue Hubbard and Jane Kember, who ran the GO, urging on its members — in fact, berating them abusively — in order to get them to break into offices and not be so faint-hearted. If Alverzo had not lifted the latch on some doors at the IRS building during the Snow White capers, Mary Sue Hubbard surely would have brought in someone else to do so.

At the end of Arrows in the Dark, Vannier tracks down the real identity of Alverzo, revealing that his name is actually Jeff Marino. (We independently determined this last year while working on The Unbreakable Miss Lovely.) Vannier attempts to call him, but can’t make the connection to his old friend. What Alverzo thinks today remains for Vannier, like much of his book, a matter of pure speculation.

 
——————–

Bonus photos from our tipsters

Scientology Las Vegas caption: “Congratulations and Well Done to Charlie, who celebrates 10 years on staff at Las Vegas Org today- March 2nd!!”

 
SciLVStaff

 
Hey, once you’ve killed at Black Hills State, how can you not slay ’em at the Hollywood Celebrity Centre?

 
Evan_Wecksell

 
Scientologists are using social media more than ever. Drop us a line if you spot them posting images to Instagram or Facebook!

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on March 2, 2015 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of LA attorney and former church member Vance Woodward

UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

 

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  • beauty for ashes

    Nola, THDNE, and all others have a rough day and are dog lovers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbQZ4FGv9ug&index=29&list=WL

    • Juicer77

      Look at that puppeh go!! True story – I did a beginner agility class with our German Shepherd. Mixed breed, some small, some large. As he did the balance beam, everyone in the audience was laughing uproariously. I turned around and realized that his right legs were on the beam and his left legs were on the ground. Smarty pants. PS He got 2nd place for best time ๐Ÿ™‚

      • beauty for ashes

        Ha! What a clown!

      • Frodis73

        Agility is so fun. Your pup sounds like a goof and I love him!

        • Juicer77

          Look at this weirdo. LOL <3

          • Dancing Cranberry

            Gorgeous!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Thank you. Know how that doggie feels!

      • beauty for ashes

        You must be training hard! Hope its paying off for you. I have Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and seem to slowly gain weight regardless of how strict my diet is. I’m considering some new eating plans, and being tested for celiac.

        • Frodis73

          I have that too!! It’s really been biting me in the ass the last two years…my winter weight does not vanish in the summer anymore. I did low carb and it was the only thing that ever worked for me. I just need to motivate myself to do it and start working out again. Sigh. It’s harder the older I get.

          • Zana

            I have Hashimoto’s as well. I drop the weight with a health program I’ve been using for 10 years. I feel great. Have more energy than I had in my 30s. I’ll hook you up if you’re interested. Easy peasy. And I handled the Hashimoto’s as well… had had it for over 30 years. I know how you feel…. it’s really tough.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Have that too. I have searched for solutions for almost 7 years now. But also had a back back and foot – due to my time on the RPF, so heavy exercise was out. I’ve found swimming and aquatics to be a safe avenue. But I’ve been on impossibly low calorie menus and haven’t lost. Also, I have the DNA of my family line, And at my age – doctor said not a lot else to do other than meds. But exercise definitely keeps me healthier! Also has me now on Rx strength magnesium. Never knew that Hashimoto’s robs you of calcium or magnesium which is why muscles are like jello, yet heavy as concrete. Sigh. There needs to be much more research !

          • Frodis73

            Swimming is such great exercise…very underestimated. Have you tried low carb?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I’ve been on everything – and I mean everything – but all medically supervised. My family Does do better with lower carb intake if we are also on low exercise output, though.

          • Zana

            It’s not calories. The body doesn’t understand calories. The cells only understand nutrition. I’ve been using a program that is all nutrition and literally cleanses out the cells as it feeds them. People drop weight quickly and energy soars. It’s amazing. I’ll hook you up. It’s guaranteed…worth a try. That’s how I started with it. Dropped 11 lbs and 21 inches in my first 13 days and my energy went through the roof. Diets don’t work. They don’t address the underlying reasons of why the body is holding weight in the first place.

          • beauty for ashes

            I relate to everything you just said. (minus RPF) You say it very eloquently. I have also been treated multiple ways for about 6-7 yrs and have yet to experience recovery. I also had a preexisting condition that has overlapping symptoms, so it took forever to get a diagnosis and by then my anti hormones were in the thousands. I’m starting to find out that it more common for people to NOT have these totally fixed bodies with thyroid treatment.
            Oi okay rant over. BTW puritan’s pride has great deals and has a calcium magnesium supplement(#7672) in the right ratio. For me has been the least stomach upsetting . A big deal! I take it before bedtime for restless legs .

        • Zana

          I have Hashimoto’s as well. I finally went to an MD who treats holistically. I was aching all over and needed help. His name is Dr. Murray Susser, MD. http://www.murraysussermd.com. He literally handled it in one meeting. Told me that I need 1/2 drop of a special iodine every day. I told him that all the books say “no iodine.” He said, “The books are wrong. This is what you do… you’ll feel terrible for 4 days and then you’ll start feeling great.” And that’s exactly what happened. Check out his website and call his office. It changed my life about 3 1/2 years ago. I’ve been going strong ever since. I had had Hashimoto’s for over 30 years.

    • Liam

      Awesome stuff, thanks beauty!

      • beauty for ashes

        IKR? Thanks Liam.

    • Zana

      Awww…. I’m just giggling at his joy!!

      • Juicer77

        “Let’s go again, Mom!!”

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Question about comparing ISIS vs Scientology and Wright says “If Al Queda had lawyers it would be a really dangerous organization.” Laughs all around.

    • Vaquera

      You type faster than i do. ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Vaquera

      There isn’t a better person than Wright to address this question.

  • Melissa

    not only are cruise and JT culpable, but also the top donnors.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    wow question – compare al Qaeda to scientology – good thing they don’t have a lot of lawyers! lol

    • aegerprimo

      You mean good thing they are not a litigious cult. LOL

  • Vaquera
    • Sibs

      Thanks, Vaquera! Will look when this ends in a few minutes.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Thanks, I had not heard of it.

      • Vaquera

        Me either

    • Just Dee

      I wonder about that question, he seems to derail from scientology. Maybe it’s just me

      ETA; he was minimizing scientology

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        I thought so too. Subtle, but maybe just a person with his own pain.

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          Yes, he talked because of his own pain. He said he came because it was about cults and he was in a cult (he called the New Alliance Party a cult). I didn’t think he was trying to derail, I think the topic hit him in the gut.

        • Just Dee

          We were right. lol Confirmed with today’s story.

    • Sibs

      Wow, it seems like somebody has really gone through and tried to censor that article, and the article on the founder (Wikipedia has even put a note at the top asking for somebody to clean up the article on the founder and make it more neutral). But I think I still got the gist.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    Alex: “In the thrall of that belief, people can do the most appalling things…”

    • Ella Raitch

      I love that the work these guys are doing will not only change the balance of control that is holding Scientology together but urges greater compassion for people who in the course of their very human lives make very human mistakes, Scientology as such a well documented example of coercion and thought manipulation will continue to provide great insights on these human foibles for years to come.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Well said, ER

      • Juicer77

        Yes! Their work will definitely shine a light on the way normal people get pulled into extraordinarily evil organizations. That is an excellent thing.

  • Vaquera

    Ack! This is over in 6 minutes! Encore!!! Encore!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Vaquera

    Honest question – Does Co$ have moles in the audience?

    • aegerprimo

      Maybe, but what good would that be since anyone who has internet access can listen/watch this live interview.

      • Vaquera

        To canvas the audience to see if adherents are secretly there.

        • Juicer77

          Because religion! *blech*

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      Of course they do. They would never not plant people there. Them talking is another issue.

      • Vaquera

        Thx.

      • Vaquera

        i wish someone on the panel would say, “There are surely Scientology spies in the audience now.”

        • Robert Eckert

          Wright did on the last question.

          • Vaquera

            And I smiled.

          • Vaquera

            i postulated that to happen!

      • Zana

        I hope those plants have second thoughts now. Hah! This is soooo good!

        • Ella Raitch

          They’ll have to have people at all the theatre showings to try and catch out UTR people. Some OSA staff/volunteers might have to go to many many showings

          • Zana

            I just discovered that there is going to be a showing at LACMA in LA on Monday evening for Members Only. !!! I WANT TO GO!!! I’m looking for a LACMA member here in L.A. Just found that out a few minutes ago. Perhaps it’s best that I stay UTR. It is just so exciting. HISTORY IN THE MAKING!

          • Zana

            Great. That might help set the semi-sane ones free.

  • Eivol Ekdal

    Whoop Whoop – Larry said “Tony Ortega”

  • Vaquera

    TONY!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Q; Are they coming after you now? Wright: we’ve been smeared but haven’t been harassed like former members. Talks about Rinder and Tony Ortega met with PI’s at Sundance airport. FBI investigation called off – because they are “religious practices”. But Gibney says, if sci sues, they open themselves to discovery.

    Checkmate.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Gibney – if they sue us they are subject to discovery, and ex’s who signed NDAs could speak in court without fear of reprisal…

    • Zana

      Wow!!!

  • MaxSpaceman

    The final 3 minutes. Alas – all good things often end too soon.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Last question. Asking Wright how he verified his sources.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    He identified the questioner as a Scientology plant. (I think.) Lawrence Wright.

    ETA: I think this questioner asking about verifying sources is a dead agent tactic?

    • Sibs

      It sounded like a subtle accusation to me (from the questioner).

      • Free Minds, Free Hearts

        Yes to me also.

      • Robert Eckert

        It didn’t sound subtle to me.

        • Sibs

          Well, more subtle than “What are your crimes?!?!”

          • Observer

            Or “Have you raped a baby?!?!?!”

            • Zana

              Or, “When did you stop beating your wife?”

    • Vaquera

      There you go! That’s what I was asking about down thread. Ahh.

    • Ella Raitch

      Yep – he said the guy was a current Scientologist

    • Dancing Cranberry

      And then Wright responded to the question in his typical even-handed way, blowing up any possibility of that accusation sticking. Very well done!

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        Yea! The reply was great. Totally made the questioner a vacuum.

      • Juicer77

        Mr. Wright is a stone-cold awesome guy. ๐Ÿ™‚

      • Ella Raitch

        Not defensive at all

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          He is so mild mannered and down to earth in person too. You don’t even feel like you’re being interviewed – you’re just have a conversation. Also, he likes honky tonk piano so he can let go on the keys.

    • Vaquera

      You do realize I postulated that to happen? :-))))))

      • Ella Raitch

        Must be a Texas thing

        • Vaquera

          Giddy-up!

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    I think he did too, he said something like “we have scientology here.” I thought also seemed like a plant.

    • Vaquera

      I’m so glad Wright is telling this story.

  • NOLAGirl

    For anyone who missed any of the Times Talk tonight I just got a tweet back from them that the video will be available later at TimesTalks.com

    • Vaquera

      It takes a blog!

      • NOLAGirl

        Absolutely. ๐Ÿ™‚

    • shasha40

      Thank you !!! ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Robert Eckert

      I’m replaying from the beginning now (was late to the party)

      • Vaquera

        Me, too. I missed the first 20 minutes.

        • Robert Eckert

          Gibney is describing how they do Xenu not with cartoons but with LRH’s voice and 50’s footage morphing into the volcanos/bombs/wandering thetans scenarios. Sounds awesome.

          • Vaquera

            ^^^^^

            • Robert Eckert

              Haggis talking about how despite the WTF-ness of OT III he still wanted to get along and just be a slightly skeptical Scientologist.

            • Vaquera

              That’s the point where I joined in the live interview. Thx Robert.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Tommy Davis agreed to answer fact checking questions. First round was 971 questions. Tommy and wife and 4 lawyers arrived. They already had 6 fact checkers, probably the most in the history of the New Yorker. They all met with fact checkers and New Yorker attorneys for more than 8 hours.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Wright interviewed a lot of $cilon celebs. Paul Haggis read the article when it came out, not before, and at first was critical of Wright for being an apologist for the many celebrities that Wright quoted but then “I realized that allowing them to speak for themselves allowed them to hang themselves.”

    • Ella Raitch

      Tommy Davis invited Wright over for a long weekend to tour Scientology and then stiffed Sunday afternoon, after he’d been waiting a couple of days. That’s a nice little truth nugget to throw at internet commenters who accuse Wright/Gibney of not showing Scientology’s side

  • Vaquera

    And we go into overtime!

  • Sibs

    Theatrical release starts March 13th!

    • MaxSpaceman

      fast, you’re very fast

      • Sibs

        I had to type it while I could still remember the date correctly…

  • Vaquera

    March 13th!

    • shasha40

      Isn’t that L loon’s birthday ? How awesome is that ?!!! ๐Ÿ™‚

      • Juicer77

        * smiles evilly *

        • shasha40

          It’s so delish !

      • Vaquera

        Winner, winner!!

        • shasha40

          Chicken dinner ! ๐Ÿ˜€

      • Frodis73

        That is karma.

        • shasha40

          Love it !

  • Frodis73

    That was fucking amazing!! One of the best Q&A’s I’ve seen…and I missed the first 15 mins of it. D’oh! So very good. Co$ is doomed.

    • you can replay it from the beginning

      • Frodis73

        Thx ML.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    Really a great show/interview/conversation!

  • MaxSpaceman

    in the next 2 weeks that piece of video will be seen by more than 500,000 people world wide. Bare minimum.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    March 13th the start of the theatrical release in LA and NY. Well, now we have dates.
    Excellent, excellent, excellent! Thank you all for making this happen.

    • MaxSpaceman

      and San Francisco – hey Grace, go see it early !

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      And he said SF – I did not imagine it. I don’t think I did, maybe it was wishful thinking.

      • Sibs

        Yes, he did say San Francisco!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        I heard it SF, but then LA and NY, so all three?

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          Yes, all three!!!

    • MadMaxi

      Like how Mike and Paul both were like” wow, that’s LRH’s Bday”
      -hehe!

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        hah

      • Michael Leonard Tilse

        Wow! I have been out long enough that I didn’t really get that it was premiering on Hubbard’s birthday until I read your comment.

        Hooray for me!

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          It’s like those milestone days of cig smoking cessation – oooh, I just went back to drinking coffee and I’m okay! Yay!

    • Observer

      I wonder if there’ll be clams hanging around photographing people going into the theaters.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        bear, shit, woods, pope, catholic, etcetera. Although … OSA can only send out hard core fanatics for this – they must be running out of the average rah rah volunteers who see nothing wrong with it – geez. Gotta be getting awfully spread thin.

    • Zana

      I’ve been gone all day. Just catching up. !! Does this mean that Going Clear is going to be shown in theaters starting March 13th?! In LA, NY and SF?!!! If so, that means it will be up for Academy Award consideration next year. !!! WOAAHHHH….. That’s an Oscar ceremony that TC and JT will want to miss!!! :-)))))) I LOVE this!!!! Please tell me this is true.. I’m reading as fast as I can to find out!

      • Robert Eckert

        Yes, that’s all correct.

        • Zana

          YAAAYYYYY!!! I just found out that it’s playing at LACMA in L.A. on Monday evening at 7:30. For Members Only. I’m not a member. Is there anyone here who IS a member? !! Tix are sold out, but a few are available at 11 a.m. next Monday. SSOOOO EXCITING!

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    NY, LA, and SF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Exclamation point tech, apologies)

  • MadMaxi

    Yeah, you can watch the whole thing if you missed any of the video! Same link.

  • Phil McKraken

    Who else thought that Mike Rinder pussyfooted around the Lisa McPherson question?

    • MaxSpaceman

      he just couldn’t say, Yes- I was mesmerized; I was a true believer; and I said and did reprehensible things.

      Couldn’t get it out. But – he did say, being there, in the hands of Scientology, Lisa should not have been there, that it was the worst place for her to be. With the worst people for her health and well being, namely- Scientologists.

      • MrsLurksALot

        He stuttered around that question. I must say, I was disappointed in his reply. I hope he takes the time to reflect and reexamine the question, it would be a good blog post.

        • MaxSpaceman

          Yes. Over the decades, he’s done and said monstrous things. Rathbun even worse. There needs to be a mea culpa. As you suggest: a good blog post.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      I’d rather focus on the import of the entire interview panel. This was educational without boring, and clearly the audience was interested in hearing what they had to say. It was smart, succint, and savvy to how all this relates to what is happening in the real world today.

      As Alex Gibney has said, this documentary is a cautionary tale.

  • Vaquera

    To reference a Seinfeld episodeโ€ฆI really enjoyed that risotto!!!!!!

  • THAT WAS FREAKIN’ AWESOME……. hope the media put this everywhere!

    • Vaquera

      โ€ฆ..

  • Eivol Ekdal

    Check out the comment from Louanne on the Live stream page…
    http://new.livestream.com/accounts/43597/events/3843118
    “Louanne -Not much of a debate. Same old faces, same old nonsense.”

    • Juicer77

      She spelled her name wrong…. that’s L.a.u.r.i.s.s.e.

      • noseinabk

        She wishes. Bet they wouldn’t let her in the door.

    • aegerprimo

      Love your comment there Eivol.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        That’s Robert Eckert

        • Robert Eckert

          I couldn’t help myself.

          • what’suppressive

            Is that Tom Davis the Tommy Davis, Robert? I’d be surprised he raised his head above the parapet.

            • Robert Eckert

              I would be surprised too, but you never know.

        • aegerprimo

          OH, oops, HOLLA to Robert E.

    • NOLAGirl

      Poor, bitter Louanne. Can’t understand why no one in Co$ can make all this nasty entheta go away.

  • Melissa

    whistleblower statutes allow for the whistleblower to receive a portion of the money recouped by the government. there will be one person who wants that money just a little more than they care about scientology

  • madame duran

    You can now replay the entire video talk. http://timestalks.com/detail-event.php?event=alex_gibney%2C_paul_haggis%2C_lawrence_wright (click “play again”)

    • MaxSpaceman

      That is simply ‘tech savvy’ on orders of magnitude like Clam Supah Powahz, Madame. ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Eclipse-girl

      I hope to watch it late tonight.

  • Just Dee

    For anyone who missed most of the video, like myself, you can watch it in full with this link

    http://timestalks.com/detail-event.php?event=alex_gibney%2C_paul_haggis%2C_lawrence_wright

    • shasha40

      Have I told you lately how much I Love my Bunker family ? You guys are awesome cause I missed the whole thing . ๐Ÿ˜€

      • aegerprimo

        And now you didn’t!

        • shasha40

          Yep! Probably won’t watch the whole thing tonight ,, but just seeing all of them on stage I got goose bumps ! Tick, tock , Davey …

    • Zana

      Thank you! I missed it. Been a busy day. Catching up now.

    • Hingle McCringleberry

      Thanks! Been scrolling down trying to find it for awhile. HoodieHoo!!

    • Sandy

      Thanks, Just Dee, I just got to watch the parts I missed

    • Captain MustSavage

      Can’t wait to see it. I even have popcorn.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    What a freakin’ day. Glad I spent yesterday chillin’ on the beach.

  • MaxSpaceman

    Yo! Just noticed. Guest Votes Are Back !!!

    Oooooooops. Or maybe not. Yeeesh.

    • madame duran

      Lurkers and UTR Scientologists can anonymously participate again!!! Woot woot!!!

      • MaxSpaceman

        Not sure, Madame. I clicked to see who upvoted, it said Guest, and I posted.

        Then, I double checked, and it looks like Disqus carries “1 Gues Vote” for a second or so, until the Disqus handle name and picture get delivered for posting.

        So- I think it might not be so, Guest votes aren’t really back. ๐Ÿ™

        • madame duran

          Darn it. I got my hopes up. Anyways, lurkers can still learn while lurking, right? It’ll also give some time for the shy people to build up enough courage to come out of the woodwork. Win-win!

  • Juicer77

    (* makes fresh popcorn for 2nd viewing of the panel *) Come and get it!

  • sookiesookie

    Arrows in the Dark? pfffft… Red X’s hit their mark!

    **RED-X TO STOP THE SCAM, BUNKER HEROES** (refresh)

    Try out the QuickFlag , then reflag every 24 hours.When you have done the QuickFlag on the Regional List, keep checking the Daily Wip for the fresh ads every 2 hours.

    RedX doc spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    RedX write up : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-118#post-2514616

    Liam modified by Dodo, flickerd by AP

    • Juicer77

      Just finished, think I’ll celebrate the successful movie panel with another round!

    • Observer

      Every time I see that title it starts going through my head to the tune of Rainbow in the Dark by Dio. argh!

  • Eugene K

    Scientology is just having no break this year.

    • aegerprimo

      It’s about time.

      • MaxSpaceman

        ( been on this beat since 1969. and I’m only 49.)

        • Vaquera

          Did you sign a billion year contract or something? ๐Ÿ™‚

          • MaxSpaceman

            No- but I posted the story prolly in 2013. I saw the Billion Year Contract in a Div 6 bring in the public spot, a very cool spot, on Sunset Blvd. Down the block from “77 Sunset Strip.”

            • MaxSpaceman

              The typical Div 6 stuff. Great location. Bringing people in from Sunset Strip, West Hollywood. Doing the personality tests. Recruiting. And – somehow – there was a Billion Year Contract on one of the tables near me, where we all were talking. I picked it up- looked at it – saw the words. And was like right then, WTF is this ?!? 1969 on the Sunset Strip was way, way out there beyond anything going on anywhere on the globe today. Such different times. The assassinations had occurred. The country was sort of torn in half. Anti-war. Pro Civil Rights. Massive numbers of people seeking a “redress of grievances” from the US of A. leaders.

          • ..yeah something like that : )

        • Juicer77

          I simply cannot imagine how longtime critics must feel this year. Shock? Amazement? Relief? Anger that it took so long?

          • Couch_Incident

            I imagine relief that they are no longer a voice in the wilderness.

            On the lighter side, I thought of these movie lines:

            From “Repo Man” (just before recommending “Diaretics”): “You like music? Listen to this. I was into these dudes before anyone. Wanted me to be their manager. I called bullshit on that. Managing a pop group ain’t no job for a man.”

            From “Stripes”: “Tito Puente’s gonna be dead, and you’re gonna say, ‘Oh, I’ve been listening to him for years, and I think he’s fabulous.'”

            • Vaquera

              Stripes line. Classic.

            • Couch_Incident

              Some people my age quote “Caddyshack,” I quote “Stripes.”

            • Vaquera

              I quote Holy Grail.

            • TheQueenofBulgravia

              We quote The Original Holy Grailish Book ….We were proof readers for Gutenberg!
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible
              AND as the Illuminati We did some rubrication and illumination.

              http://www.lambethpalacelibrary.org/files/images/MS%200015%20f%20046r2_edited-1_0.jpg

            • Ella Raitch

              Haha – I said ‘lighten up Francis’ the other day.

            • Mymy88

              I might be in your group. I quote Logan’s Run “There is no sanctuary”

            • Couch_Incident

              “Runner… you are terminated.”

              If you like “Logan’s Run,” you’ll love the book “This Perfect Day” by Ira Levin.

            • Mymy88

              You know? It just now occurred to me that ‘Logan’s Run’ runs in perfect parallels to $cien: 1) pre-arranged societal grand illusion 2) bad is good 3) suffering of children accepted 4) really awesome robot scene! 5) rebels lead prisoners to freedom and a chance to start over 5) end to an AWESOME ASS cult movie classic! Farrah Fawcett is even in it. How cult classic is that?

              Thank you, I shall make a note of your suggestion and put on my must reading / listening list.

              Cheers and Carousel! (just kidding lol)

          • MaxSpaceman

            You have no idea how difficult it was pre even early World Wide Web Internet 1992-ish. Started more than 20 years before that when former member, William Burrows, wrote an open letter to Ron Hubbard Sr., saying — answer to the young people of this nation, what you actually are saying you stand for.

            As in this: ‘You claim Scientology is the universal road to freedom. Well I’ve
            taken your course and I say: prove it to all of us. Come out country
            simple and prove it’. — http://www.xenu-directory.net/news/library-item.php?iid=4989

        • Since 1969??!!? Good lord, I would have downed the Gin, tonic with a lime twist and called it a night Waaaaaay Long ago. Nice of you to hang in there.

    • Michael Leonard Tilse

      The year of their discontent.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        The Winter of their Disconnect

    • Eugene K

      I just found out about this too. They don’t mess around with Scientology in Russia:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-FmInGckbo

      • RMycroft

        It’s just their way of saying “Howdy!” in Russian.

        Moscow Scientology Center Raided February 26, 1999, Associated Press
        Moscow police confiscate Scientologists’ papers February 26, 1999, Seattle Times
        Cops Raid Moscow Scientology Center February 26, 1999, Associated Press

        I didn’t bother with a “16 years ago today” post on Thursday, because .. Russia. The “Man bites Dog” news would be if they actually convicted somebody of something in solid court case.

        • Eugene K

          Oh… well… this only means that Russian government is suppressive ๐Ÿ˜‰

      • Scream Nevermore

        If Putin wants then shut down, they will be shut down, no excuses needed. It might be Tick Tock Time for them…

    • Couch_Incident

      Time sTalks Scientology!

    • Mymy88

      Yeah, ain’t it such a fuckin pity.

  • MaxSpaceman

    An ancillary bit of information: attending the talk live, at the Times Square studio at the New York Times offices, required a ticket purchase of $40.

    • Sibs

      Well, I suppose if you were in town and you wanted to see the studio and be able to ask questions, $40 would be worth it. As a student I used to be able to go to those kinds of things in person for free, though.

      • MaxSpaceman

        not in the Big Apple, Kiddo. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • Sibs

          See, another reason to justify not going to NYU!

          • MaxSpaceman

            ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Juicer77

      Worth every penny, IMHO. And the free live broadcast and replay are wonderful.

    • Observer

      So the Scilon plants had to pay to be enturbulated? Excellent! Hopefully some of it sank in.

      • Ella Raitch

        There goes week’s wages

        • Sibs

          Oh god, I just got sad thinking about Sea Ogres starving this week because they were ordered to go to this event. Maybe it’ll be more impetus to consider what they heard tonight?

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            They’ll only send the most fanatical OSA staff and they won’t have to shell out anything.

  • Vaquera

    I wish we were all sitting in a bar, drinking margs and eating nachos, re-hashing and high-fiving tonight’s Ideal Event!

    • MaxSpaceman

      Ahhhhhhhhh. How sweet it would be.

      • Vaquera

        I hope that’s what the panel and Tony are doing right nowโ€ฆ.Larry can join them when he is done signing books, of course.

        • Juicer77

          SO JELLY. WANNA SIGNED BOOK!! And I never use all caps.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I already gave mine away or I would send it to you. I’ve just got 2 books left – I’ve gotten mine into the hands of those who couldn’t afford them and needed them the most.

            • Juicer77

              Aww, thx, sweetie. I will get one eventually. Glad you got copies to people who need to see them.

    • Right!??!!?? I haven’t been able to watch it cuz I’ve been studying but I hope to watch it later tonight.

      ETA: Your responses here at the Bunker makes me EXcited!! EEEK!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Where Tony is probably at this moment with The Going Clear Champs – I’d buy them a hero hoagie.

      • Vaquera

        One of our Bunker mixologists should come up with a shot called The Thetan. I’d buy the panel several rounds.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          There was a hilarious comment thread when the Very Merry Unauthorized sci play was being shown in St Pete, FL for names of drinks. If anyone can find it – we may really need to look this over again. So we have the Thetan, how about the Blitzed BT’s?

          • Vaquera

            Paging NOLAGirl.

            • NOLAGirl

              The Thetan would need gin so it glows blue in a blacklight. Blizted BT’s would probably be something like a Long Island Iced Tea, a lot of different liquors so it gets all your BTs drunk. ๐Ÿ™‚

            • i think it should be ‘clear’!

            • NOLAGirl

              Well it can double then because without a blacklight on somewhere, it is ‘clear’. ๐Ÿ˜€

            • Rasha

              ..tooth of Suntiger… hypermint extract….. oh, wait. Different drink altogether.

          • whatever the drink is, it MUST be ‘clear’!

            • Robert Eckert

              Going Everclear

            • perfect! everclear will totally fuck you up too—just like scientology!!

        • Couch_Incident

          “Iโ€™m drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys.”

          – L. Ron Hubbard in a 1967 letter to Mary Sue while writing OT3

    • Betsy

      Yes! Here’s to Alex, Lawrence, Mike and Paul! And the Times!

      • Vaquera

        Now the nachos from the Tex-Mex restaurant across the street are singing my name like a siren’s song.

    • Ruby

      Am gonna watch it now, with beer in hand. Cheers!

  • Sibs

    I was going to reply to THDNE but then I had this thought: with all of the bad press they’ve been getting over the Sea Org, has it occurred to the mother church to dole out more money to the orgs for basic necessities like food for workers and paying the bills so that they can project the appearance of being well-fed and well-taken care of and prove critics wrong?

    I guess that would involve Dwarfen Miser-cavige giving up some of his Macallan funds, and he’d never go for that.

    • Vaquera

      Wouldn’t that be a recognition of guilt on Co$’s part.

      • Sibs

        Paul Haggis’s response today on how people respect the Sea Org made me think that perhaps they’re all well aware that Sea Ogres are only paid $40 a week and have very little food or sleep. I would think that would mean they’re also aware of how that kind of treatment is perceived and the outward appearance their followers have, but I suppose this is the cult of $ci and normal logic doesn’t apply.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Miscavige has each separate group infighting and cannibalizing each other at this point. Public despite the Sea Org who despise the lower org staff and public who despite the wealthy whales who resent the celebrities but want their autorgraphs and the celebs despite the whole lot of them. You know, you’re typical holy family. heh

          • Sibs

            I know people here are sick of Hitler comparisons (use minus sign tech on this post if you want to), but I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding correctly and it’s a way to sum up my thoughts. It does remind me of what we talked about in my Nazi Germany and the Holocaust class, that Hitler encouraged in-fighting between the people he placed in charge of different departments because it left nobody to challenge him. For instance, the way he pitted the SS against the SA because he thought the SA was getting too powerful.

            So, McSavage is trying to keep the sheep from thinking about who’s in charge of the overall mess by having them focused on each other? So nobody in the bubble questions the treatment? And DM is a narcissist who he’s invincible, so he wouldn’t care if non-$cientologists thought Sea Org conditions were inhumane.

            Okay, I guess I just answered my original post. God, sometimes I just can’t fathom people like Blubbard or McSavage.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Yeah, it’s hard to intellectually wrap your noodle around these types. I’d say you don’t have to go all Hitler – this tactic is very typical of sociopathic manipulations. I’ve known them outside scientology too – up close and know of others who had their experiences. They use people to do their dirty work and keep their own butts safe – and they divide the groups and get them infighting – just like the not obvious trolls do here. The problem is always getting anyone to believe the level of deception and how intricate the web is, as well as diabolical. It’s one of their armor pieces – it’s just too unbelievable – and they often are the most polite and jolly little charmers so it makes it even hard to spot. Of course, in a cult, that’s not a problem.

            • Sibs

              I think of Vannier getting himself hired as Gabe Cazares’s lawyer… heck, even Vannier passing the Florida bar based on someone breaking in and changing information on his application so that nobody would suspect that he was a $cientologist… who would even suspect? I mean… yes, especially before Operation Snow White and information about the Guardian’s Office going public, but even now, you wouldn’t expect a group to infiltrate that deep unless you’d already Googled $cientology.

            • Mymy88

              I’m not into Hitler comparisons and things like that, but I always say, it’s where $cien wants to be and where $cien is heading. $cien would be happy to step into a Nazi-like dimension and will, if not stopped.

          • Ben Franklin

            I believe the infighting culture in Scientology is by design. The phrase divide and conquer rings a bell

    • Robert Eckert

      Pasadena and Inglewood are GOING SAINT HILL SIZE!

      http://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-biggest-news-since-the-last-news/

      • Sibs

        Those SO better blow before they get to Pasadena. The public won’t be happy they’re there, and the Midget will be more furious when it becomes clear that even they can’t make things go right.

    • TheMirrorThetan

      Well The Littlest Leader does deserve some reward seeing as he is the only one who can make things go right in scientology. No one appreciates him and how hard he works day and night and what he has sacrificed for the cause. It is enough to bring a tear to your eye.

  • aegerprimo

    I wrote this about 4 hours ago to post in response to Tony’s article today, then the TimesTalk live event captured our attention! Anyway for all it’s worth at this point, my thoughts on Merrell Vannier self published book…

    This book, Arrows in the Dark, though only an account by a member of the Co$ and used/hired by the GO, as Tony points out, is not backed up with documentation. Nonetheless, it is a piece of the puzzle, part of the overall picture of the cray cray of the CULT of Scientology. This book, in itself is a document, a written “interview”, a resource, for real journalists and writers.

    I thank you Tony for providing such a detailed synopsis of this book. I personally will not be purchasing the book to add to my collection. My reasons are similar to what many exes have expressed here today. This man, Merrell Vannier, has played a part in hurting MANY people and he seems to have no remorse. He probably will not make big bucks selling his book. That being said, I notice with his timing, maybe he’s trying to ride on the coat-tails of the buzz of Alex Gibney’s documentary, and Tony Ortega’s book release…

    Remorse, accountability, admitting you were WRONG. These are hard things for an ex to do, and one will never be free of the brainwash until you can.

    • Zana

      Thank you. I am not going to purchase it either. I agree with you. He’s trying to ride the wave. I hope his admissions get him into big trouble.

    • Are_sics

      Right on. The “not backed by documentation” with some pretty extreme and unbelievable opinions… that’s enough to keep my away. I’m hoping Tony’s blog post really did tell me everything I wanted to know, because I just can’t see reading the thing. Miscavige as an FBI plant is quite the theory, for the most obvious example.

      This apart from the whole question of lining the author’s pockets, discussed repeatedly thorughout.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    FYI – Here is the link to Alex Gibneyโ€™s profile in Sundayโ€™s T Magazine (from the Times) that Carol Olsen Day, director of TimesTalks, mentioned at the beginning of tonightโ€™s conversation. http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/alex-gibney-going-clear/

  • NOLAGirl

    O/T: From Rinder’s post today, it looks like Dave is sending a pack of SO to Pasadena to “fix things” and I just wanted to repeat my comment on it here. I hope that some of those SO members will use this chance, away from the security in L.A. or Flag (or wherever they’re coming from), to escape.

    Seems to me like an opportunity. I hope some of them will take it. I find it hard to believe that there isn’t more than one SO member having thoughts of leaving right now.

    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-biggest-news-since-the-last-news/

    • Juicer77

      Chuck, you’d better check the Ex-Sea Org phone # more frequently in the coming days…

      • NOLAGirl

        I’d be happy to donate to some flyers with the number on them if someone is willing to take the risk to spread them around there.

        • Juicer77

          Burner phone with the number programmed in.

          • NOLAGirl

            Nah, don’t want to give them anything of value, OSA would keep them and use them. LOL

          • TheMirrorThetan

            They would just pawn em for Loo Paper.

    • Couch_Incident

      Wouldn’t it be fun to crowdsource billboards around orgs with 1-866-XSEAORG?

      • NOLAGirl

        Yes!! ๐Ÿ™‚

        • Couch_Incident

          Any advertising people here at the Bunker?

      • Todd Tomorrow

        I always say we need to recruit a whale into or cause. Tim Cook since all the clams have msft error messages on their billboards outside org in New York. People always spit on them and it makes it easier to see, spit that is. The constant error messages are really funny. Looks like a very old Windows system runs the Big Brother machines. We need big Pharma. Love to have that job.

        • Couch_Incident

          Egads, $cn cult for Apple cult?

          [Sorry, I’m a little bitter that Apple won’t fix my 2011 Macbook Pro; my days as an Apple fanboi are over.]

          • Todd Tomorrow

            I know they had such loyal geeks back in the day. Two months ago I spilt two shots of espresso on the last 17 inch, MacBook Pro. In six years not one crash. Back then a tricked out one was close to 6 grand(more actually). Tried to just use my Ipad. But I’m all into the cult of Apple. Love my new one.

        • TheQueenofBulgravia

          Knowledge Report: We remember Windows 1942—but sadly no past lives (Eve??? or Cleopatra??? or both???–We do have a strong aversion to snakes) and Thank Xenu, no parental S*E*X engrams–We do not think they ever would do T*H*A*T. The Stork delivered Us to the Hospital. “This is True.”

          https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/27/f3/ae/27f3ae0b0daf4e0526aaaa39bd582ba1.jpg

          http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/MTL/GE5/MTLGE5qBc.jpeg

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Holy crap – again today! So this is where they’re going to ship off all those who don’t make it over to KCET staff. So it’s either the torture of listening to a B to D list scientology celeb drone on how great they are and how awful the rest of the lazy bums are, or they have door #2 – a dirty dozen sea org mission. That’s some choice – you want we remove your left leg and right arm, or right leg and left arm?

      Hey guess what – Pasadena is one of those places that has been propped up by the whales like i have been yapping about – once again, the whales are being replaced – so either they are fed up for paying for Miscavige’s follies or they were slapped down for not meeting their quotas – either way – bye bye whales.
      Yay! And believe me, this SO mission will drive out anyone still moping around the lobby – like the janitor – they’ll end Pasadena within a few months of what’s left of it now.

      http://i.imgur.com/ijLqTNx.jpg?2

  • Zana

    This man is such a nasty piece of work that he stinks from here. I’m not going to support him by purchasing his book. I’m glad he put it all in writing. I hope he can be prosecuted for his truly warped betrayal of everyone and everything he touched. Icky-poo.

    Am I being too harsh? ๐Ÿ™‚ Gotta say… I’m surprised by my own distaste of the man. I’m still glad that Tony is posting it and exposing this ex-lawyer’s nasty activities to the light of day.

    Maybe someday I’ll read it in order to create a villain for a movie or a story. I know that all villains justify their actions. For now, I’ll just watching Going Clear and read The Unbreakable Miss Lovely by our own amazing proprietor! Thank you, Tony, for your amazing job.

  • A Guest

    Where was David Miscavige during the Times Talk tonight? j/k

    F5/refresh

    • Melissa

      he was at home praying for a growth spurt

      • Billy Bob

        The Sultan of Short and his Janissaries

    • Melissa

      he was at home crying b/c he doesn’t meet the height requirement to ride a roller coaster

      • Frodis73

        Funny just how close to the truth that almost is. Most coasters require the rider be minimum of 54 inches. DM is 5’1″ if I remember right.

        • Melissa

          his lack of height makes him angry. if he is tiny in the genital area, then he is REALLY angry. He is the first cult leader where his sexual exploits are under the radar. maybe his thing is not to have sex at all

    • Mymy88

      snip snip

    • Scream Nevermore

      Those guys speak in public. Does David Miscavige?

  • thetastic

    Well, I can’t buy this guy’s book if he’s such a tool. Which means I have to wait for the library to get it. You know, there is entirely too much waiting these days in the wonderful, wacky world of scientology watching!

  • Juicer77

    Re: the panel – I wonder if Mike Rinder was a little offended by the interviewer asking him to explain disconnection and then laughing a little. This man has to know Mike lost his children to the Co$? He probably didn’t mean it to hurt, but it must have. (19:30 during the video)

    • April

      Mike said in his answer that he lost every blood relative to the CO$, including nieces and nephews, not just his children. I didn’t know that he’s lost every single family member.

      • Dancing Cranberry

        He lost his mother as well, April. She died without knowing that she had another grandchild.

        • aurora50

          She died and was buried before he knew it…he was sent an email notification by someone in the Australian groups who did not even know him personally, but was so affronted by how his family was treating him.

    • Ruby

      I don’t think it offended Mike. I think the chuckle was perhaps because he knew that Mike DID know how best to address it because of his personal experience.

  • thetastic

    On an entirely unrelated topic, reading Going Clear has led me to start moving through Lawrence Wright’s oeuvre. I’m reading City Children, Country Summer right now, and, although a little old, it’s fantastic! I would highly recommend to any readers here looking for something fast paced and thought provoking.

    • Juicer77

      I’m working through Looming Tower. So far it’s really good.

  • okay, here’s something to bring you down with a bump…. “scientology provided me tools to get off drugs and make me better at golf”… yes, we’ve a real live one on TV talking about the recent UK advertising blitz… Mark Pinchin is his name!!

    http://www.londonlive.co.uk/news/2015-03-02/church-of-scientology-launches-advertising-campaign

    pic

    (incidentally I have a friend who is quite high up in London Live so if Graham has a specific question I can put it forward)

    • Couch_Incident

      How many strokes are we talking?

    • i-Betty

      Thanks, Lush. This is useful.

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      Thanks to CO$, the multitudes of desperate drug addicts worried about improving their golf game now have HOPE! Pssh! Of all the possible demographics out thereโ€ฆ Lush, are you sure this isnโ€™t a comedy bit?

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Spend Davey, spend! {You can make a difference.}

    • Scream Nevermore

      Enquiring Brits want to know why they are pushing the Scientology agenda. And how much they are bring paid to do it…

  • Sibs

    I haven’t blabbered this much on the Bunker in a long time, and now I think I need to sign off for the night and get some things ready for tomorrow. Goodnight! Thanks for being patient with me.

    • Dancing Cranberry

      Me, too, Sibs. Today’s topics were very compelling.

  • Ruby

    Watching panel now. Paul Haggis…so great. I have not really seen him speak before on this subject and I am loving this.
    Why is it that when these guys speak up…Haggis, Gibney, Wright, Rinder, Tony…I seem to develop a crush on these guys? ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Ella Raitch

      integrity is a very attractive quality in a man

      • Ruby

        Yes. That is it.

      • Liam

        Just curious, why would integrity be a negotiable, as opposed to a prerequisite

        • Ella Raitch

          It is a prerequisite in a partner but still an attractive quality in others you encounter (I have a husband who I wouldn’t be with if he didn’t have integrity, but find that quality attractive in others).

        • you should see the generation of “men” these days. It on it’s own has become a quality unfortunately.

          • Liam

            Very sad….integrity is central not just to being a man, but to all our endeavors (and that might make a good haiku)

          • MaxSpaceman

            truly?

            • uuuuum yes.

            • MaxSpaceman

              Maybe there’s so much fear/uncertainty about one’s future, that integrity is placed lower down on the list of qualities that will bring success.

            • Liam

              Good point Max. And unfortunately, sociopathy is highly correlated with upward progression in the corporate ranks. Go figure;)

            • Mymy88

              I completely agree with that too.

            • you mean a rich guy who’s an asshole?

            • Liam

              Hope you don’t settle for less than that, SPW

            • I’m thinking about becoming a nun actually. (serious)

            • Liam

              Grew up thinking about becoming a monk. I get you. ๐Ÿ™‚

            • Couch_Incident

              No hasty decisions, especially if you haven’t been off the kool-aid very long. Take some time to get to know yourself and what you think before jumping into a belief system.

            • 3 out of 3 people that I have known since I’ve been out have been mentally unstable. That scares me. The amount of breakdowns between all 3 makes me not want to get close to anyone.

            • Couch_Incident

              Understandable reaction. Counseling might help and draw out your own conclusions.

            • Frodis73

              I’m a never in, but let me give you some totally unsolicited advice. In recovery they say you shouldn’t make any major decisions or changes within the first year (at least). For example, don’t start a new relationship, end one, have a kid…or run off and become a nun. ๐Ÿ™‚ Seriously, you are raw, fragile and hurting in a lot of ways. Take some time and just focus on you and what you really want…try new things and interests. This next part is just my own personal belief-since you have just left a religion/cult, getting involved in something different right away just doesn’t seem like a good idea…it seems too soon to switch from one set of beliefs to another so soon…take your time. Don’t rush yourself…there is no deadline (no 2pm Thursdays here!) you need focus on. Be kind to yourself. I see you also mentioned fear because of others who have had breakdowns. A real possibility with lots of people. We they getting therapy at all? Did they have the Bunker to blow off steam and work some things out? Hopefully with the Bunker and the other ex-sites you can work through some of these things. I know therapy might be a touchy subject, but when/if you are ready a good therapist can really help you see things in a different light.
              Man, the cult makes me so mad. I wish you the best…you know we are always here. Becoming a nun seems like such a rash decision after what you have been through…it worries me a bit…timing just seems wrong. Keep reading and talking…somebody is here 24/7…I have no doubt this place and others have saved lives. {{Hugs}}
              I really hope this came out right and not judgmental…I really am concerned. I really wish Stacy was around to comment as her background is great for this. Or Baby. BABY! Come to the Bunker and help out! Lol.

            • Thank you Frodis for your thoughtful response. Sorry guys the nun comment was a semi-joke (truly), but I really enjoy meditating that’s all. I’m not going to be a nun I swear. I think the REAL danger is in my “I never want to be in a serious relationship again” think (basically a nun). If there is any danger, it is that lolol. After breaking up with a semi-great guy for Scientology, my inclination is not so much with trusting men but trusting myself and the decisions I have made. But as you said, I am definitely giving myself time. After graduation, I do plan on flirting with the idea of speaking to a counselor. Even before scientology, I was not a fan of the mental health industry so I am hesitant about going in that direction. If there is any reason why I would even entertain that notion of getting counseling, it really is to make sure my next partner is comfortable knowing I’m not some insane broken chick who ended up in a cult and is not recovered lol. This time last year, I would have said no, but I am open to it. But thank you, I think I’m okay. I know the direction I’m heading. : ) As for the other people, I don’t know if they are receiving therapy, but you are correct, it may be too soon. Thanks love! : )

            • Couch_Incident

              Remember you are allowed to hire and fire counselors at will, so you’re not stuck with the first one you meet (helps to get recommendations from people you trust). Also, “I never want to be in a serious relationship again” isn’t an uncommon feeling at any stage in life (I’m probably older than you and in a long term relationship that may be coming to an end, and I find myself feeling the same thing). Plus, I know it’s anathema in $cn, but consider meds if you’re depressed – it may preclude you from ever becoming COB, but so the fuck what. Best of luck!

            • Frodis73

              Glad it was a semi joke. I am with you on the relationship thing…never say never, but I am not looking. One divorce was enough.

              I’m very pro mental health, but I understand your concerns…there *are* a lot of problems (just not the ones CCHR bitches about). It takes time to find the right person…years sometimes…and if somebody needs meds, it can take years to find the right ones/combo. It’s expensive and frustrating and a lot of people (myself included) give up because of those reasons. I have had a couple *great* experiences though too and know they are out there…if I could afford it, I’d start the search again.

              Lastly, Netflix has a new series starting this week…can’t remember the name, but it’s about a woman that has been in a cult all her life and then finds out the outside world exists and comes out of the cult. It’s a comedy and I think Tina Fey is behind it…you reminded me of it. Early reviews have been good. I bet you will be able to relate.

            • Yes give me the name of that show. would love to watch. : )

            • Ella Raitch

              That sounds great. IMDB is showing a series called “Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt”

            • MaxSpaceman

              Great comment, Frodi. Very recovery-oriented and helpful.

              Btw, where *is* Stacy? She’d be all over a day like today.

  • noseinabk

    I missed the first 30 minutes so went back and watched til the end. These guys are not going to be tripped up by juvenile attempts to discredit them or minions asking questions. Can’t wait to see mini Rons futile response.

  • Ben Franklin

    Off topic but concept of prison of belief just reminded me of an interview of a Noth Korean escapee conducted Anderson cooper. In the interview, there are some very startling similarities between the North Korean regime treatment of it’s citizens and how CoS treats it’s parishioners. If CoS were a nation, I think North Korea would be a mirror image. How many similarities can you spot in the interview, from the indoctrination, to RPF/prison camps, to Knowledge reports etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUIU5PvLOo

    • Mymy88

      I agree with you completely.

  • Dancing Cranberry

    The cult examiner has a piece on Jehovah’s Witnesses. The link to CO$ is easy to make.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/jehovah-s-witnesses-silencing-techniques-used-child-sex-abuses-cases?CID=examiner_alerts_article

  • Ruby

    I am a little over half though the video of the NY talk. I have to say, this is excellent.
    As an Ex…THIS interview is something I want those still in to see. If the film is even half as good as this sit down interview, I would be happy. But I gotta say, I love seeing all these guys just tell it like it is, up front. no frills. Thank you all. (I love Paul Haggis!)

    • Suppressive Tomato

      Just finished watching … Loved it! I didn’t fully get the impact that this movie could potentially have before watching the Times Talk video. This is the biggest salvo yet. You just can’t ignore NYT and HBO. Too much cred. I love that they kept pushing two buttons: Cruise/Travolta/Celebs-Still-In and IRS exemption. Tick tock indeed!

      Also excited that there will be a theatrical release in LA. Maybe I’ll finally get to meet some fellow Bunker citizens.

      • Ruby

        I just finished it too and everything you said is right on! So great!

    • Captain MustSavage

      Have just logged in. Where can I find the video?

  • Strelnikov

    Arrows in the Dark cover: the above-title blurb uses the Star Trek movie font, the title is Captain America movie font, and the author’s name is in the Batman Forever font. When you are taking fonts from movie posters, that just screams “self published.”

    I’m glad that everybody is having their say in expose books, but I am holding out for Heber Jentzsch’s trilogy Arrested in Spain, Beaten by the Dwarf-Boss, and My Prison Smells like L. Ron’s Taco Farts.

    • Ben Franklin

      Heber’s books seeing day of light would be a miracle

    • Couch_Incident

      “And People Thought FLDS Was Crazy!”

  • Liam

    Little Davey needs some help to refocus: (image, refresh)

    • Couch_Incident

      “Luke, I am your father!”

      • Scream Nevermore

        I’d take Vader as my father over El Rotten, any day.

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      I just noticed, is LRH wearing gloves? Haha

  • libbilee

    There are other churches that operate like Scientology. One is called Eckankar and it is believed that it’s founder Paul Twitchell at one time was in Scientology. Paul Twitchell plagiarized whole segments of other people’s works and changed only the names which he replaced with the names of his fictitious Eck Masters. They too threaten to sue over their works and other things. Would love to see them get some troubles since they only operate to rack in the money off books and conferences they hold. They are as obviously phony as Scientology and deserve to lose their non profit status.

    • Liam

      Nice attempt to divert attention

    • Captain MustSavage

      Kenja cult in Australia established by ex scientologist who repackaged a lot of their routines. He suicided in context of sexual assault allegations by two young girls. Who knows what happened really, but when I found out about his scientology background I wondered if he’d been fair gamed.

    • grundoon

      From what I’ve heard, Scientology is 47 times more maleficent than Eckankar.

      Anyway, hereabouts on this fringe of the Internet, our favorite topics are usually Scientology-related. If that’s what you’re looking for, welcome!

  • Vaquera

    Follow up to my comment of a couple of hours ago about maybe the Daily Show having a $cio skit tonight.
    Nope. Maybe I mis-gleaned the hashtags or maybe they were filming one for later in the week. I’ll keep my eye on it and let you know. Sorry for the misinterpreted excitement.

  • Science Doc

    So I missed all of the excitement because I was filming a segment with some science speak for one of the top people in TV (knock yourselves out OSA). Looks like the End Days may be at hand for a certain nasty cult.

    • Lurkness

      Doc we got the theater release date–March 13.

      • Science Doc

        So I could be game for an LA viewing on Friday the 13 th. I need to be someplace else later that weekend so it’s the 13 th or wait for HBO for me. Do we know which theater yet? IS there an ultra trustworthy Bunker Buddy who is willing to organize this? Would like to hear RMycroft and other modern techies opine on secure communications between Bunker commenters who might want to maintain anonymity in the real world.

        • Ella Raitch

          Theta Bara, Missionary Kid and Douglas D Douglas are 3 Bunkeroos I can think of who have met in the flesh before and may have contact info that can be kept offline (as a start)

        • grundoon

          Tory’s ultra trustworthy, has posted her phone number, and might be planning to attend.

          • Ella Raitch

            Tory could be PM’d at ESMB too

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        It looks like Going Clear might play at one of the Laemmle theaters in LA: http://www.laemmle.com/films/39065u

  • Suppressive Tomato

    Super Urgent KR: To COB or his local OSAbot who may be earning stats tonight for Thursday’s report:

    Just completed a cycle on the NY Times panel discussion re: HBO “Going Clear”. This is going to be catastrophic.

    Run Executive Directive “Operation Criminal Zephyr” immediately. Repeat: Run Executive Directive “Operation Criminal Zephyr” immediately.

    COB to pack favorite Loeb shoes, Brioni suits and enough McCallan’s to last 6 months and head to Curacao. Further instructions will be provided on arrival at Target 2.

  • Ok so going back to what Paul Haggis is saying about his moment going down the rabbit hole and seeing how TD lied on national television. I think a major point that needs to be noted (to never-ins) is that you are basically lied to on a continuous basis. For any question that ever comes up, you’re fed a rehearsed answer. For example, during one of my routine sec checks, I happened to mention that my sibling told me Leah Remini left the church (boy did I snap on her). Ethics officer (unfortunately very attractive) asked me “Why I would continue to be in communcation with someone who is lying?” He basically called my sister a liar. She happens to be an atheist, so she always had her opinion about scientology and religion in general anyways. And to be honest, I thought she was just an angry atheist cuz she’s kinda of a happy-emo chick. It was one of the many red flags that came up for me cuz I know my sister hates religion, and sometimes she does too much with the Jesus jokes, however I know my sister is not a fucking liar, and she has NEVER has any harmful intentions toward me. To add, another thing that you’re told is that when you reach the OT levels, you can leave the church whenever you wanted to. k…(back to watching video). not going to be edited so apologies in advance for grammatical mistakes.

    • I love that betch with all my heart. : ) Not leaving her cute ass for scientology. k going back to watch fer real this time.

    • Suppressive Tomato

      For me, ARC works and is an attractive concept. To demand someone to break ARC with total KRC is like the most evil Supressive Act imaginable “in this universe” if you accept those concepts and their purported use, per LRH. It’s the cognitive dissonance trap that Haggis refers to several times.

      • Hingle McCringleberry

        The way I’ve viewed it is that ARC (affinity, reality, communication) is the carrot. KRC (knowledge, responsibility, control) is the stick. A person is inducted into the group with the idea of ARC, but to bind them to the group, they are induced to take a KRC action for the benefit of the whole, or the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, etc.

        That panel discussion was excellent, yet I wish more attention was drawn to the trap by which people are drawn in with a benign philosophy and social problems and alleviated, after which a person’s vocabulary and self-expressive tools are systematically removed and replaced with those prescribed by the group. That’s the real inherent danger of these people and those like them.

  • Lurkness

    Cool beans! Just got to the end of NYTimes video. And Gibney says:

    March 13th Theatrical release in SanFran, LA and NYC!

    Probably already posted below, but will advertise it again anyway.

  • George

    What a great interview! Those 4 are the perfect team and nailed every one of the top 10 issues perfectly.

    Question for any ex member…My impression is that “staff means employed at an org, but not SO, so they are free to enjoy other areas of life. They can have a steak, go to the beach, etc, since they have income and a life outside COS. Is that fair? Or do they devote themselves as stringently as SO and eschew those things? Thanks.

    By the way, at the end of the interview, though almost inaudibly, Gibney added “SF” for a pre screening …omg! I googled and got nothing yet. I’m in sf and will hope. Anyone know more?

    • Frodis73

      I’m a never in, but from what I understand, your understanding of how being on staff works is technically correct…with the exception that the pay is low, you work horribly longs hours and the pressure is just as bad (still have Thurs 2pm deadlines and other nonsense). Kinda like being in the SO w/out the “prestige” and RPF. Lol.
      Also, yes to SF. No dates, but usually in most cities there are one or two theaters that tend to run special limited screenings…you could probably google for that in the area and then call and talk to the theater. I am sure the dates/times/theaters will be announced any day now though.

      • George

        Thanks. If any others out there are from SF area and want to coordinate a Going Clear party, reply here and I will pursue connecting off the Bunker.

  • Frodis73
    • “None of my 27 years of active and productive service to the Church and
      its causes mattered once someone got it in their head that I was a โ€œPR
      riskโ€ simply because I wanted to live a relatively normal life outside
      of the Sea Org.”

      I have so much to say about this, and I am confused after reading this on Chris’s blog, but I’m going to keep it short as it is just food for thought. maybe just another round of lies from a scientologist.

      1) As you are recruited into the Sea Org (at least by a mission holder) you are told the billion year contract is symbolic, and there are shorter contracts.

      2) I was told about a handful of people who have left the Sea Org after 25 years of service, and they were all accepted back into the Scientology community with open arms.(Dave Petit’s son). This is all hearsay,

  • Jeff Marino / aka Don Alverzo was not a Federal Agent.

    That is ridiclous.

    He was on lines at AOLA (Church of Scientology in Los Angeles) with name change as a pc circa 2005

    in this link he attested Clear.

    http://www.truthaboutscientology.com…ff-marino.html

    He was in fact married to Molly. Here’s “Don Alverzo’s wife” MOLLY at my wedding

    (Can’t separate the 2 images below ~~ Molly is in lower image, in the pink and blue dress to my left)

    She used to be Molly Gilliam married to John Gilliam on the the Apollo. Then in Clearwater, she married

    Don Alverzo and in my wedding photo was Molly Alverzo, hard core B1 Guardian’s office.

    A senior messenger talked to Merrell Vannier and told him in black and
    white that LRH knew about Guardian office tactics to drive Paulette
    insane. LRH would talk about it after Mary Sue briefed him, but Merrill
    would not accept that LRH knew all about it.

    It’s not in the book.

  • Billy Bob

    Broken Barricades by Reid Keith & Brooker Gary
    I substituted eight words
    .
    It was all once bright dreams
    Glittering sand
    Reality’s karma
    Strangled the plan
    .
    Waste fills the hours
    Dead temples are born
    The presses are empty
    The editors torn
    .
    Whose husband was the first to fail?
    Who died the worst death of them all?
    How many splinters in each separate band?
    How many missions in the final hand?
    .
    So gather up seashells
    And write down brave words
    Intentions unanswered
    Your idols absurd
    .
    The seaweed and the cobweb
    Have rusted your sword
    Your barricades broken
    Your enemies Lord

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    C.O.B. wanna be, Chairman Of the Board Frank Sinatra
    FiveOne says to mirror, wanna be me Frankie don’t ya?
    Wearing skinny suits and swanky John Lobb loffas

    Preening in the shiny, makes his pompadour high-er
    All the gophers be bowin’, they preaching to the choir
    He taken all they money and making they life dire

    Can’t fill Sinatra’s shoes and his pants ain’t tight either
    Workin’ that con day and night, little pope tiny leader
    Sent away the Shelly wife, she wouldn’t let him beat her

    Wonder how he ranks himself next to famous croona?
    C.O.B. the tiny one compares to Frank Sinatra
    Like Vienna Sausage compares to Kielbasa

  • ** RED X +โ€“+** REMINDER ** +โ€“+ RED X***

    Itโ€™s about that time Bunker Lurkers and Bunkerites

    RedX doc spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CANโ€™T BE ENFORCED.
    DONโ€™T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    (refresh)unk artist, modified by DTL and flickered by AP
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/16176932211/in/album-72157642802079293/

  • The brief clip of Spanky Taylor, talking about her daughter, in a soaked diaper with welts around her eyes made me tear up. : ( Such a sick organization.

    • Scream Nevermore

      I know. At least an adult might be able to get help for themself. What bloody chance does a baby or a child have, except to endure their abuse?

  • Adrien Marcel Drea

    WOW ONE MORE LIL COFFIN NAIL …

  • Scream Nevermore

    Watching now – site says 19 others are also watching. Good to know!

    • obvious sock account

      Those 19 peoples are the same as the other 70 peoples.

      • Scream Nevermore

        Take a troll ticket and wait in line please.

        • obvious sock account

          May the road rise up to meet you, my friend.

          • Scream Nevermore

            Your ticket number is 345. Someone will be with you shortly.

            • *snickersnort*

            • obvious sock account

              Is it COB RTC??? Every time I hear that someone will be with me shortly, I say a little prayer that it will be the pope himself.

            • Scream Nevermore

              Sorry, he doesn’t speak in public!

            • Ella Raitch

              New troll or old friend? Hmmmmm

            • obvious sock account

              TUNE IN NEXT WEEK TO FIND OUT!!! Goodnight. <3
              http://youtu.be/jjxXhxcIbG0

            • Ella Raitch

              tease

            • Hingle McCringleberry

              Hey broheim! If things are twisted up and frustrating where you are, shoot me an email. sir.hingle.mccringleberry@gmail.com Feel free to vent. I’ve had a hectic few days, but the pressing problems that I have in front of me are out of my hands for another two or three days. so I’ve got some attention to give. I’m going to take a 6 hour nap now- so if you need to blow off some steam, I’ve got attention to spare when I wake up. If you are who I think you are, you deserve better than to fall to shit all of a sudden. The Bunker is family, and should be so as we deal with these faithless Ronbots.

            • Ella Raitch

              I’m not the only one then ๐Ÿ™‚

            • Hingle McCringleberry

              Some of us get caught in the space between the waves, I guess. Having the courage to fight for freedom can potentially be a little awkward if you’re always girded up for battle- maybe because you’ve put so much aside that you don’t have anything else to do, or everything you care about is behind the enemy’s lines.

              Not sure the answer for him, but I can listen.

            • flyonthewall

              You made longtime lurker cry. Then Nat-lificent cried. Then I cried. You bad man

      • romanesco

        Yep, HBO and NYT threw all that cash into entertaining 19 people.

        • obvious sock account

          That seems like a waste, doesn’t it? I don’t see the point.

          • romanesco

            They’ll both lose millions and go out of business, and Scientology will have nothing more to worry about.

            • obvious sock account

              No. Because dragons.

            • romanesco

            • We Love you too!! All I have to say is watch “Going Clear” March 29 at
              8pm!. It’s also opening in theatres NY,SF,LA on March 13!! Have fun
              Schloshing off OCA. Gnite!

              ***Ignore tech on the troll with lots of love and facts****

            • obvious sock account

              I’ve been waiting anxiously to watch it since it was announced. But I will consider watching it on the dates you have listed. Love is all I got.

            • oh and one more thing before I go back to my beautiful life outside the internets. I left you a message on your other account. You may want to check it. Zzzzzzzz. Peace. Love is all we need.

      • Observer

        Jimmy? Is that you?

        • obvious sock account

          Yeah.

          • Observer

            Yay!

            • obvious sock account

              My goal is just to spend much less time on the internet, so I won’t be around as often. I’m far too weak to quit cold turkey. I fucking love cold turkey. And since some people here will always think of me as a liar and a sock puppet master, I’m gonna have some fun with it.

  • RMycroft

    I was watching a bit of the TimesTalk, and when Mike Rinder was talking about the base idea of Disconnection is that you should remove yourself from an abusive relationship.

    The practice of Scientology is that you should stay with the upstat wife-beater and Disconnect from the friends, family, police and courts telling you that sticking around is dangerous and a really bad idea.

  • obvious sock account

    Is there any way I can download this times talk so that I can crush it up?

      • obvious sock account

        Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I am already watching and enjoying it. I just want a way that I can download it, print it and crush it up so I can snort it.

    • Hingle McCringleberry

      Is this Jimmy? If so, just be you! “Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, i don’t even want none of the above” in the immortal words of Dave Chappelle as R. Kelly. It’s only worth doing as long as it’s fun.

    • Eivol_at_Work

      http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/
      See supported site list.
      You may require ffmpeg or rtmpdump, depending on the format.

    • grundoon

      Welcome, stranger!

  • Jack99

    Just watched the TimesTalk. It was great. Loved the part where the interviewer listed up all the Freedom lies about the participants, and Wright’s reaction of, Hey, what about me? The one uncomfortable moment was Rinder’s answer about the McPherson case.

    • Painful memories I’m sure : (

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      What about Haggis replying to Danny Masterson? I wonder if we’ll hear anything further from Danny on this.

      • Jack99

        Hopefully. Unless he has been told, no more talking to the media.

        • Scream Nevermore

          Given what an arse he made of things, I doubt we’ll ever hear from him again!

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          Hopefully CO$ has told him to put a sock in it, as his reputation has nosedived in the wog world after that stupid interview. (No offense meant to obvious sock puppet.)

  • Scream Nevermore

    I wonder who the ‘secret leavers’ that Paul Haggis talks about are? People who’ve left the cult so secretly they don’t want the cult to know…

  • I have the best conspiracy theory of all – Tony is CIA operative and Miscavige reports to him daily. Bam!

    • Scream Nevermore

      I’d better get my KGB ass out of here then! ๐Ÿ˜€

    • Jack99

      An even better theory: Tony Ortega IS David Miscavige. BOOM!

      • Scream Nevermore

        He must walk around on stilts in that case!

        • Jack99

          Lizard people can change the way they look, including height.

      • chukicita

        Has anyone ever seen them in the same room at the same time? There ya go.

        *adjusts tinfoil hat*

        • Jack99

          Case closed.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +โ€“+** RED X ** +โ€“+ RED X *** Tuesday the 3rd of March
    Good day All,
    1. Please do complain about spams to CL, it works but it must be done, the more the better. Evidences must be provided by referring to actual post IDs.
    2. There is this finance guy with the $cientology CVin NY (& Denver!) who is begging to be reported for spamming see Regional List & todayโ€™s Daily Wip.
    Here is how it was done for Boston: https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-118#post-2514616
    Keep an eye on Boston, they are coming back!
    3. Tampa had a record โ€œFlagged for Removalโ€ this week end 26+, can some SP from Florida contact me and tell us what method they use for flagging (QF or conventional?)
    4. SF, Houston and Canada are steady and regular โ€œremoversโ€, can I have a feed back on the method used!

    RedX spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    (F5, โ€ฆ) for RedX Collage created by Bob Kรฅre for RedX, and flickred by Aeger Primo https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/16486842892/in/set-72157642802079293

    • TheMirrorThetan

      I got my ‘puter back all fixed so I can get back to flagging the shit out of Sacramento again.
      it was too much of a pain on the tablet to do.
      I don’t know how much it counts being on the other side of Teegeeack, but I have nothin better to do ๐Ÿ™‚

    • It’s a freeloader squirrel, bro.

      • Ella Raitch

        apparently loafing…..ZING!

    • TheMirrorThetan

      That would make a great avatar, too bad I have Captain Cat.

  • When Paul Haggis said – I never studied philosophy, I never studied psychology, before being introduced to scientology, I felt like he spoke for me and for the great majority of scientologists. Great interview.

    • Ella Raitch

      He is a very engaging speaker and has the intended effect of showing the audience that scientologists aren’t all merely gullible people falling for Xenu craziness

      • Exactly. Mike Rinder makes a lot of really great points too. And so is his grey hair.

    • April

      That makes me wonder how many people with degrees from liberal arts colleges (where you have to study math, science, social sciences, history, etc. no matter what degree you’re pursuing) join the CO$.

      • I suppose the problem is – we don’t know exactly how the brain works yet, although neuroscience is way ahead of dianetics, imo.

        • April

          Yes, but someone who’s studied social sciences and philosophy might more readily recognize all those ideas LRH stole and mashed together to create the CO$. Someone with a science background might more readily recognize that the Purification Rundown is absolute nonsense, among some of LRH’s other quackery.

  • Sidney18511
    • Spread it.

    • Ella Raitch

      This doco is really the gift that keeps on giving, and it hasn’t even gone public in a big way yet. A few selected showings at Sundance (and a festival in Montana?)

  • Ella Raitch

    I’m in the mood for a Scientology celebrity defection. Who could be next? The Smith family? Not too far in (basically UTR and not married in etc yet – lots of talk about Will Smith’s flagging star power following After Earth.
    Ribisis, Lewises and the Mastersons seem too far in and Juliette and Giovanni’s career don’t really rely on star power (they have talent).

    • I want Neal Gaiman go Leah, for starters.

      • Ella Raitch

        What do you want him to do Dodo – isn’t he out but just keeping quiet because of family

        • Yeah. But he is fucking Neal Gaiman. Timing is good too.

    • what’suppressive

      Please let it be Jason Lee.

      • Ella Raitch

        He could at least give Tony an interview like he said he would some years ago

        • what’suppressive

          Really LR? You learn something new……….. I’d love to see another pro skateboarder give Tony an interview. Steve Berra, never in ex hubby of Juliet Lewis. I reckon that would be juicy.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              Yeah, there’s stuff all over the internet about his involvement w/ CO$.

            • what’suppressive

              Well I’ll be fucked Dodo, You learn 2 something news every day. I’m pretty sure he’s out now. Wouldn’t be the first to have some early wins then look at the big picture. 8(

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              This is interesting:https://stashedboxes.com/news/10430-eric-koston-mad-at-alex-olson-for-hating-on-the-berrics

              “Anonymous 30 June 2012 04:29AM #129610

              “The greater good of skateboarding?” ERIC KOSTON IS A SCIENTOLOGIST STEVE BERRA IS A SCIENTOLOGIST and THE BERRICS ARE FUNDED BY SCIENTOLOGY to trick skaters into that sh&*t; they convinced Koston that “they would unleash his
              potential” by giving him 5,000$ audit readings!!! BOYCOTT THE BERRICS
              AND PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE SCIENTOLOGY TO YOUNG KIDS!!!”

            • what’suppressive

              Koston too! Nasty email coming up.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              Sorry about that. Google “Steve Berra scientology” (if you can stomach it) for more info. ๐Ÿ™

            • what’suppressive

              Really interesting Rus. The berrics has a massive precense on the net. I’m literally shaking with anger….. Oh I’m all over this.

            • He is out? Dox?

            • what’suppressive

              I was wrong again mate, just spent awhile down a rabbit hole and I’m really upset truth be told. The Berrics is a scientology front! I’m mad as hell. Please do me a favour Dodo and look up The Berrics and get back to me on what you think the best course of action would be to get this out there more. I was gonna email Tony but I know he must be flat out atm. I know you’re a regular over at WWP and someone who I respect a great deal….. As I said I’m pretty devastated at all this so I can’t think beyond hate mail.
              I’d really appreciate your input
              Eric Koston, Steve Berra and Alex Olson(sp) too many links to share.

            • Emailing Tony would be best.

            • what’suppressive

              Thanks I’m doing it now, done more reading so I’ve my facts more down. Drunk and emotional last night. Thanks again Dodo. U da man

            • And thank you too, good sir.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Hi everybody! Busy day in the Bunker, I see. ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Rasha

      Gets busier earlier and earlier, it seems…. I’m beginning’ ta think some of y’all ain’t from around these parts….. ;P

      • EnthralledObserver

        We be from all parts… indeed. ๐Ÿ˜‰

        • Rasha

          Hehe, and awesome it is.

          “it’s a great day at Global Entheta Support! Please have your snark ready, and we’ll be with you in no time!”

  • NOLAGirl

    *flops down on the Bunker couch*

    Did anyone make coffee??

    • EnthralledObserver

      Jug is boiling…

      • NOLAGirl

        Love you. ๐Ÿ™‚

        • EnthralledObserver

          Nawww… sweet pea. You got the croissants?

          • NOLAGirl

            I won’t lie, I come empty-handed today. ๐Ÿ™‚ I’ll pick some up though ok?

    • Frodis73

      I brought donuts too!

      • NOLAGirl

        Y’all really are the greatest. ๐Ÿ™‚ I’ll be back for them. I have to go be the bitch-Mom and wake my son up. ๐Ÿ˜€

        • EnthralledObserver

          Nice work… best job in the world! lol

    • Rasha

      Bunker Bagels are on the way.

  • TheMirrorThetan

    I am watching the guys on livestream, linked to several posts bellow, at the moment.
    Did the church really buy Mike’s garbage? That is hilarious in a fucked up way.

    • Ben Franklin

      Yes the church’s private investigators buy peoples garbage sometimes. If I can recall correctly, at one point, they even bought Mark Bunker’s, and I believe Pat Broeker’s garbage as well. They pay the garbage collector money to keep the garbage for them so that they can go through it looking for documents or any clues of the persons activities and day to day life.

      • TheMirrorThetan

        Thanks. If they were going through mine I would put in some strange weird shit or messages just to fuck with them. Of course they would have to deal with a weeks worth of stinkers from my kitteh, mixed in too.

      • kemist

        The reliability of this must have gone down in recent years.

        Most of the things that could inform someone about these things, I’ve been doing via the internet for some time. The rest I burn. Unless what they want to know is what kind of orange juice I drink, or that I like weird vegetables, they would find very little of interest. And they’d have to buy from 3 different people, since in my city we have three different services for compost, recycling and garbage.

        • Ben Franklin

          Yes the reliability has gone down in some areas such as, paper documents and receipts because nowadays a lot of documents are in electronic format.

          When investigators search someone’s garbage they look for a number of clues not just documents. They also look for physical items such as medicine bottles, containers, dietary habits (foods you eat), social habits, family habits, phone numbers, places of employment or social outings etc.

          Unfortunately, there are a lot of things that people put in garbage that unknowingly gives away a lot of their privacy. Even when you shred documents there are other things that an experienced investigator can use to learn a lot about you.

    • noseinabk

      Bird house cams and trash pickers. Stay classy Dave.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzae2QQoqZY

      • TheMirrorThetan

        Oh shit, if I laugh any more Iam gonna rupture something.
        Ecclesiastical Birdhouses and Garbage. I hope the Garbo got reported the arsewipe.
        So classy that the fastest growing religion on the planet has to resort to stealing garbage from ex members.
        Yeah your gonna clear the planet little Davey, of rubbish that is, loser.

        • Melissa

          how in the hell did he find that camera?

        • Guest

          he should dump used kitty litter in with his garbage

  • Observer

    Gah, wrong place

  • Alice Smith

    Angie LaClaire spent a few years on the RPF. There was a big bust at CC around ’07. She had been the Snr C/S there. Alicia Petit got busted for falsifying auditing worksheets, but it got blamed on Angie. Even though that is the only mandatory expulsion and declare, Alicia was sentenced to dishwashing in the basement for a year or so, but no RPF for Dave Petit’s daughter, she’s Scientology royalty. She was Alicia Tinoco at the time. Last I heard, Angie had graduated the RPF and was an advanced tours reg for AOLA. I guess they broke her spirit, so they could trust that Angie would report back after traveling.

  • seataka

    Arnaldo Lerma:
    Mike Sutter talking to Merril Vannier about the documents seized by the FBI in 1977:
    โ€œOne thing we isolated is that any legal case in which the seized documents get into evidence, either before a judge or a jury, we lose. Every single case.”

    Vannier, Merrell (2015-02-27). Arrows in the Dark (Kindle Locations 4972-4973). Cherry Tree Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

  • Bert Allen

    The allegations by Vannier that the COS was a target of COINTELPRO, infiltration by FBI undercover agents, etc are totally false. I have reviewed the FBI files that have been released per FOIA requests.