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HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

—————- In anticipation of her biggest day in court yet, Laura DeCrescenzo and her attorneys hit the Church of Scientology with 928 pages of new filings —————- Details from 18,000 pages of evidence show how Scientology manipulated a child to keep her working under slave-like conditions —————- A key document describing DeCrescenzo’s unwillingness to have her coerced abortion is missing from the evidence Scientology was ordered to produce By Tony Ortega Wednesday afternoon, Laura DeCrescenzo filed explosive new information in her four-year legal odyssey against the Church of Scientology, submitting 928 pages of new declarations and exhibits in anticipation of a crucial October 23 hearing in her lawsuit against the church which alleges abuse, including allegations that she was forced to have an abortion at only 17 years of age. Key to the new filings is information gleaned from thousands of pages of previously secret files that the church fought mightily to keep under wraps. But on Monday, the U.

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SCIENTOLOGISTS AT WAR, the Channel 4 Documentary

SquirrelAs we predicted, a version of Channel 4’s documentary, “Scientologists at War,” has appeared on the Internet. We don’t know who’s responsible for it, but we’re embedding it here so our readers not in the UK can get a look at it.

We also asked some ex-Scientologists in the UK to give us their impressions of the show after they got to see it when it first aired.

And we want to thank our readers who gave us live updates of the program earlier today. Now for the rest, give it a look and tell us what you think!


 

 
And here are thoughts from our UK readers…

Martin_PadfieldMartin Padfield:

It opened with a montage of Squirrel Busters nuttiness and a clip of Marty reflecting, with audio about the church splitting. The first segment was an intro to Marty and how he came to be in his position and his working relationship to Miscavige. There was an interesting clip of the L. Ron Hubbard death event which many Scientologists won’t have seen or will have conveniently forgotten. Nice line from Marty about “L. Ron Hubbard was the God, David Miscavige was Jesus.”

It didn’t take long (7 minutes) before Xenu made an appearance — a quick summary of the Xenu story followed by Ortega saying it’s deception that the Xenu story is hidden from new members. A few poignant admissions from Marty about what troublemakers could expect from him — the RPF prison detail, etc. A clip of Mike Laws recounting a security check done by Marty.

Karen de la Carriere is shown with wedding pics with Heber Jentzsch — and tells how she “shredded her Class XII certs” when she left the Sea Org. She tells of her being cut off from her son Alexander after his death “with a vengeance.” Cut back to Ortega saying how they do their best to creep you out.

Then they cover the lead up to the IRS exemption, and the push for religious recognition. David Miscavige is seen name-checking Marty personally in the “War is Over” event (I wonder if he had that bit edited out when he ordered all staff to re-watch it a couple of years ago).

Section on Tom Cruise starting with his intro via first wife Mimi Rogers and covering his failing marriage to Nicole and how Miscavige needed a poster boy and Cruise fit the bill. Marty was ordered to drop everything and work on it full time to get Cruise fully on board. Then how DM started denigrating Marty to Tom in front of him when he had done his work. In 2004 Marty was assigned to The Hole. Marty goes over the Musical Chairs event and there is a crude reconstruction of sorts. He then tells of his escape via motorcycle. There’s a snip from the 2004 IAS event when Cruise got his “medal of valour” and the bromance manhugs between Cruise and Miscavige on stage.

Then Mosey starts the first of her several segments. Wow, this woman is good on camera. Effortless and easy style. Very touching testimony about how Marty seemed lost and she got out his Scientology books from the garage to bring him up from his depression (I don’t think she used that word). There’s a demo of Marty auditing Joe, and the narrator tells after 3.5 years together Mosey persuades Marty to start auditing again.

Marty talks about his blog and shows some stats; it’s very obvious the blog is a huge success. Cuts to a meeting with Steve Hall, Haydn James, and Lucy, and another I didn’t recognise, talking about Independent Scientology.

After the second break it’s back to the Squirrel Busters, and Ortega discussing heresy. And there’s a bit of Marty’s footage of them including him getting arrested, and some great little interview with a neighbour who gleefully relates how she used sprinkler tech on the Squirrel Busters. A stand-out moment of the entire show here with a female Squirrel Busters looking absolutely demented and psychotic screeching about “all things Marty” and cackling.

Cuts to the Hamburg meeting with German government official Ursula Caberta a couple years back and the how Marty was “cleaning up the mess left by the Church.”

Back to Ingleside and Marty knocking off the sunglasses of a Squirrel Buster. Ortega talking about Village Voice “When Scientologists Attack” article.

Then showing the International aspect and it’s over here to Saint Hill Manor and showing some souls in the pouring rain demonstrating outside the IAS event last October — John McGhee, Sam Domingo, me and others shown — then about how The Sun infiltrated the event and they linked it beautifully to the press conference we did the following day. There’s a few seconds of me talking at that meeting talking about the first target being to break the monopoly.

Cut to the Indie mission in Israel that is obviously thriving and lively that has disconnected from the Church.

Back to Texas and shots of Marty moving and Mosey explaining that it was not backing down, it was just was good sense. Again I have to say she shone!

At the very end were the usual denials about everything from the cult, just laughable — I mean my wife and I were actually laughing too much to take notice of the details but I can rewind it and copy it later if you like…

Overall it was excellent. It wasn’t too Hollywood and the narration was the typically British understated style. The message was clear — Marty was wining the battles (but a little question mark at the end as to whether he was winning the war). Any online Scientologists watching will definitely learn a few things from this — I wouldn’t be surprised to see a few new e-mails in my inbox over the next few days.

 
Samantha_DomingoSamantha Domingo:

I think they did a bang-up job. They set about trying to understand the mindset of the Independent movement and managed to sum it up succinctly and fairly. The screams from the “outraged” Scientologists who claim their religion is being maligned are unfounded. This is unbiased, clean, investigative reporting. I don’t know what kind of impact it will have on raising public awareness of the abuses of the cult and I think there was a lot more to be told about the atrocities, so in that regard I was disappointed.

However, that being said, this program was never going to be anyone’s soap box and I respect them for that. The goal was to tell the story of the Independent Movement and its conflict with the corporate church, so in that regard I would say it delivered what was promised. It’s good to see the media going ahead and reporting without cow-towing to the Church. Hopefully it’s a sign of the times and there will be more like this.

 
Pete_GriffithsPete Griffiths

There was too much emphasis on the Independent movement, which is a damp squib and only useful as a soft landing place for new escapees. Most move on quickly as their eyes open ever wider. The documentary itself was very factual and did the cult no favors. My family and I fell about laughing at the Xenu section. It highlighted the batshit insanity of indoctrinated Scientologists and hired PIs revealing them to be nothing but malicious, deranged crazies. All in all, positive in that they won’t get any new members from amongst anyone watching it.

 
 
 
Hartley_PattersonHartley Patterson (Old time critic, never in Scientology)

It’s “all about Marty,” as screechy Squirrel Buster lady says. Nothing in it is new to any of us, but that’s fine. Some of the usual suspects make brief appearances, but only Mosey and Ortega have more than a few lines. Ooh — that’s me under an umbrella outside Saint Hill for two seconds!

I’m happy with this one. It’s well edited, plain speaking, and the nonsensical Church denials are confined to text at the end.

 
For folks in the UK, you can see the show on demand here.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on June 17, 2013 at 20:30

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

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  • Chocolate Velvet

    Excellent! Thanks for hooking us up, Tony.

    • FistOfXenu

      It’s gotta be tough for her. Talk about cognitive dissonance. His conscience would have to bother him for him to clear the air and now that I’ve seen it, he doesn’t look like a guy bothered by his conscience. 1 explanation for that is all the excuses he makes. We were kids then but we all grew up except for DM, it was just my job (“I was only following orders”), I left because I always knew it was wrong and not just because I could dish it out but I couldn’t take it, and all the rest of it. Oh yeah and you can stay in the past I’ve moved on. He’s got so many lies in his head to hide behind he may as well not have a conscience at all.

      Of course there’s another explanation how somebody could be so vicious to other people for so long and then just walk away and not feel like he owes anybody anything but I’ll leave that to the professionals.

      • richelieu jr

        Funny how many people find out that hitting people is wrong right about the first time they get popped.

        • FistOfXenu

          This is what bothers me. I really want to be sympathetic to the guy. I admire the people here that can do that. But he claims he knew all along it was wrong. I really hate to break Godwin’s rule or whatever it’s called but I don’t think it’s far fetched to ask ask how many people do you have to push into an oven before you go from “this is wrong” to “this is wrong and I’m not doing it any more” and the answer for Ratbutt seems to be it wasn’t too bad as long as he was the guy dishing it out.

          I know you’re another person here that thinks some kind of truth and reconciliation process like South Africa could be an answer. Maybe that would help but you’d still have to get the “warrior” to put down his sword long enough to really do it.

          • SciWatcher

            It also makes one wonder if he’s really left the violence behind. I think this is one of the reasons I have such an aversion to him. He’s a bully. That’s how he came to the position he was in. He shows no remorse. He becomes obviously defensive when confronted with questions about how it feels to be on the other end of things and about people asking him to admit his guilt.

            I know a lot of people thought Monique came across well, but she kind of weirded me out. She seems to me a classic enabler. And, I’ll say it again–the fact that she must accept at least some of what’s in Dianetics seems to me very strange. I only surmise that she does because I believe this is the Hubbard stuff that Marty clings to–the original “theories.” So either she has read it, or she blindly follows Marty. Either way, it seems odd.

          • richelieu jr

            You and I are of ane opinion on this issue…

            I am surprised there aren’t more of us.. I think it is really that for people to heal, really heal (not that crappy, watered down poison that Rathbun hawks), they have to totally let go let go of the past, let go of the anger, everything, or it eats them from inside and they are never free… I understand this, and am really impressed by the sincerity of people who have suffered so much…

            I am not like that- For one thing, i was not injured by this farce of a church in any meaningful sense. For another, anger for e is a weapon and can be a positive motivating factor for me, properly channeled.. And that channel for me is in the form of the obscene perversion of the Christian Cross that sits on top of these ‘churches’ and leads right up DM’s ass by way of Rinder and Rathbun’s.

          • Chocolate Velvet

            Sympathy for Marty is beside the point, really. Marty does not care what you or I think of him or how we feel about him. That is not going to change any of his behavior or choices in the future.

            That is what matters to me. I am coming from a place of sympathy for the victims of Marty’s past behavior. My only focus is: what type of feedback might actually lead to Marty making himself available to the former targets of his harassment in a way that allows them to achieve some sort of satisfaction or sense of justice.

            It is an ongoing process, and Marty is not the point of that process, but he is a desirable tool in that process because of his particular baggage. He holds information that would help to provide a “big picture” that would validate the stories of so many other people who occupied only one small place in that picture, and did not have access to the big picture, and cannot provide persuasive evidence in support of their own stories.

            Marty has a big voice, and carries a lot of weight in the eyes of the media and the general public because of his position in the cult, and the operations he was known to be responsible for. This means he is uniquely situated to provide for others a context that changes the way their stories are received, and how much the cult can effectively rebut and cover up the truth.

            I am all about trying to change the environment so that the scam of scientology cannot survive, and so that its victims can be seen, heard, and most importantly, believed. So I will continue to call Marty into awareness of his obligations. The fact that it is also the only way for Marty himself to finally and truly leave the cult behind, and free his loyal wife from the prison of his past, is only a tertiary benefit, and I do not begrudge him his own healing. But that is not about Marty, that is about me and how I want to conduct myself in this world. That’s my style — for the good of all, and the harm of none, is the most desirable outcome to me. I try to get as close to that mark as possible. Of course, sometimes the best thing for a person is a good ass kicking. So be it.

            • FistOfXenu

              Great thoughtful post. Thanks.

            • monkeyknickers

              You are smart, lady. Shit – or man. Anyway, smart for sure. :)

      • Chocolate Velvet

        Great points about Marty. Ones I have stated in other comments on other posts, so no need for me to repeat them. And this show also underlined that Marty hasn’t come to terms with his past — Tony’s comments at the end summed it up quite nicely.

        But I disagree that Marty doesn’t seem to feel any pangs of conscience. He obviously does, to me. He looks like a man who knows he has done wrong, and puffs up with arrogant blustery dismissals when confronted with his actions. This is utterly typical behavior for a narcissist. They cope with being wrong by puffing up, chastising their interlocutor to “get over it”, playing the victim of unfair criticism and whatnot.

        That’s what I see in Marty. There is a way to get narcissists to come into the light, so to speak, and that’s the approach I use. They generally have a very, er, generous image of themselves. This can be used as leverage. It’s really the only leverage with a true narcissist — they are expert at deflecting the perceptions and opinions of others in favor of their own.

  • Jgg2012

    BITTER DEFROCKED APOSTATES!

    • Jefferson Hawkins

      As opposed to sweet frocked believers, one imagines.

      • Jgg2012

        Those sweet, frocked apostates know the truth, don’t they? And they are living so well in the Sea Org.

        • Conditioner

          Jeff, that was pretty frocking funny!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Frocking! Is that anything like Fracking? Well, Frocking it is then at the Bunker.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Frocking… I hope it’s nothing like ‘frotting’. :-/

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I was afraid, but I looked it up. Lol, I guess the answer would be a resounding “yes!”

            • EnthralledObserver

              :-/ :-/ I was afraid of that…

          • Zana

            Those guys are FROCKED!

      • Robert Eckert

        Or salty skeptics in designer clothes.

        • richelieu jr

          Or Vampire-caped Crusaders.

      • FistOfXenu

        I hate Disqus…

  • Spackle Motion

    The OTIII drawings are too much. I’ve never seen those before…..the one at the movie theater with the 3D glasses is great.

    • Poison Ivy

      I found them clever and cheeky!

    • richelieu jr

      LRH did say it was like a 3D movie….

  • John P.

    I have only watched a couple minutes so far, but I think they’ll fall short of trying to present this as a conflict between two giant adversaries. This is not the Great Schism that rent the Catholic Church into the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches. It has all the silliness, as others have pointed out, of Life of Brian‘s dueling Judean People’s Front locked in mortal combat with the People’s Front of Judea, impotent and inept splitters from each other. But watching sleeveless Marty mix it up with the Squirrel Busters adds a certain element of a rumble between the geriatric motorcycle gangs at two adjacent assisted living facilities.

    • Jgg2012

      Exactly. Marty is not Martin Luther but Clement VII, the first antipope, or Henry VIII, who created a new catholic church that would allow him a divorce. As for the squirrel busters and there illegal trespassing, I think law enforcement ignores it because the current schism is so silly. It really is “all about me.”

      • Robert Eckert

        Oh, I wouldn’t even compare it to that level. Instead of the beginning of the Great Schism, when Clement was the Pope in Avignon and Urban the Pope in Rome, I would think more of the end, when the Avignon line had been declared null but old “Papa Luna” kept calling himself the true Pope until his death, and then the handful of cardinals still loyal to him had a mini-schism so that there was an antipope on Majorca and another antipope in the county of Armagnac.

        • Jgg2012

          yes, that is an even better analogy because the world membership of Scientology is about the same as the population of Majorce.

    • Eraz0r

      Excellent description.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      rumble, motorcycle gangs, old folks home. It’s a good image, JohnP. Just throw in a few maurauding Texan sprinklers, a clown in a paddle boat, a cackling witch in a golf cart, and I think it would sell in the land of Monty, or South Park. I know now that i was being far too serious in trying my hardest to be objective. You have helped me see the error of my ways.

      • FistOfXenu

        Thanks for for the reminder. Texas sprinkler tech for the win! Squirrel busters are lucky they weren’t looking down the barrels of his neighbors firearms.

    • FistOfXenu

      Love the picture John. Makes me think of West Side Story if anybody remembers that.

      • Bella Legosi

        I do, but it is way before my time. My mom makes me sit thru that sometimes :/

        • FistOfXenu

          Before your time? Ouch.

          • Bella Legosi

            Awwww sorry. Need I remind you that I am a Regan baby?

            :)

            Don’t worry, I am quickly catching up!

            • FistOfXenu

              Yes you needed to remind me. Being a WWII baby means my memory isn’t what it used to be.

            • Bella Legosi

              That’s all good. I am pretty damn good with memory. It isn’t total recall, but it’s pretty sharp! I’ll give ya heads up when ya need it!

            • FistOfXenu

              Could you start with what month this is? ;)

    • Aspsusa

      I think the programme was essentially a beginners glimpse of the breakdown of COS, presented through the figure of Marty. About halfway through I started to wish it was a series, and we’d get episodes centred on a freezoner, an anti-lrh ex, a few of the non-indie former execs (rinder, scobie, hawkins?), the headleys…
      I wonder if this film works for non-scio-watchers? I think it might, good pace and dramaturgy, but I’m not sure.

  • Spackle Motion

    “I’m not the type to be in prison, and I’m not going to be in prison”

    That one statement says it all, and I am simply confused why anyone thinks he has good intentions about anyone but himself.

    Marty seems to have had zero problems sending other people there for DECADES. He’s just as guilty as Miscavige for these crimes and for tearing up families. Just because he escaped and now has different labels doesn’t change one lick of what he did.

    I’m glad that he’s no longer a part of these horrible actions but he hasn’t paid for them either. I’m sure the families he tore apart would appreciate some recognition at some point, don’t you think, Marty?

    It’s all about Marty Marty Marty. The guy was a mob enforcer that should be where he refuses to go – PRISON.

    • Spackle Motion

      And Marty even tried to get his future wife from reading stuff about him on the Internet. He wanted to have her ask him directly so he could spin his lies. What a douche.

      • Spackle Motion

        “I’ve readjusted them (beliefs) radically since I left the Church of Scientology”.

        Barf. With every one baby step forward he takes 3 tumbles back. Rathbun still doesn’t see what he did as having criminal and moral culpability that he needs to address. His latest bullshit book proves that point.

        Mosey reminds me of a relative that put on the willful ignorance blinders that now has her in a world of divorce/custody and in a situation involving domestic violence. Sad.

      • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

        And Marty even tried to get his future wife from reading stuff about him on the Internet.

        That is creepy and actually frightening.

        • Poison Ivy

          I don’t totally agree that it’s creepy – anyone can write anything about anyone else on the internet. How does anyone know what are lies and what is truth? (Answer: find real documentation to back up allegations. I.E., criminal records, court cases, aliases, etc. Minus that stuff, internet slamming is common and can’t be totally trusted.) Scientology specializes in internet black PR (in fact, it’s the only thing they seem to know how to use the internet to do!).

          If I were her, I probably wouldn’t have dated him after he made that statement, but that’s me. At least he started off their relationship by letting her know there was crap out there about him.

          I have a major Girl Crush on Mosey. She’s beautiful and seems to be incredibly comfortable in her own skin…very certain of herself. I don’t know what on earth attracted her to Marty, but it’s a point on his side that he was able to attract such a fine woman.

          Does she call herself a Scientologist?

          And what of that statement at the end of the doc; that Marty no longer calls himself a Scientologist?

          • ParticleMom

            I’m with you, PI. Mosey seems pretty awesome and I really don’t think he deserves her.

            • Poison Ivy

              Ah, just another fabulous woman with a man who doesn’t deserve her. Like Megan and Don Draper ;-) (With me and MrPoisonIvy it is more likely the other way around…)

            • tetloj

              Aaah boo hiss. You’re fabulous….mwah!

          • loulai

            I read on his blog that he grew tired of the endless debate among others about whether he was still entitled to call himself a Scientologist or an Independent Scientologist or and ex-Scientologist. Since he is now just as invested with other philosophies he is apparently now satisfied to be just an independent thinker.

            • Kim O’Brien

              with an e-meter ;)

            • loulai

              grin.

          • FistOfXenu

            She’s not a $cientologist, she’s a Rathbunite. Fair enough til she’s excusing his abuses and atrocities the way the cultists excuse Hubbard’s. Then it’s just “here we go again”.

    • Mat Pesch

      I was in the Sea Org for 27 years, I was declared and my family has been
      broken up for almost a decade and about a million dollars has been
      spent on PIs to harass me. I don’t have any hatred toward anyone who
      may have contributed to this. The PIs are just trying to make a buck
      and the Sea Org members are in a mental state/trap where I can only feel
      sorry for them. If a Sea Org member is able to make their way out of
      the mind fuck they have my support and forgiveness. To me its a new
      start. I welcome them to the world where they are free to return to
      being themselves. I feel it would be counter productive for all, to do
      otherwise.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Are there limits to you generosity? Say, what about if Miscavige himself decided he’d rather not go to prison and bailed… would you feel the same?
        I say they still ought to share in their own portion of culpability… and first demostrate their remorse via apology and acknowledgements. Marty did what he did KNOWING it was wrong, he says so himself, why isn’t he sorry?

        • Mat Pesch

          I’ve known Miscavige since 1978 when we both worked at a Sea Org base in Palm Springs. I feel he is a hard core sociopath and would be and will be, with or without Scientology. I don’t see any hope for the guy. Many good people got caught up in Scientology’s mind fuck and harmed others both directly and indirectly. Its not something that is easy to separate out of. I have been “out” for over 8 years and I still have Sea Org nightmares every night. I have talked to MANY other veteran ex Sea Org members and they are dealing with the same thing. There is lots of blame, shame and regret to go around. Plenty of reasons to feel frustration and upset. I think we need to concentrate on handling the organization (and its “leader”) who are generating the crimes and abuses. As a side note, I have spent many days with Marty since he left the Sea Org. There are plenty of things he regrets. I have also known Marty since 1978. He isn’t some perfect person but he doesn’t fall into the same category as Miscavige. Not even close.

          • Zana

            Well said.

          • EnthralledObserver

            Miscavige is certainly the kingpin that needs knocking down, but I think it is important to remember he is not working alone… and the henchmen have names… and at one point one was Marty Rathbun. I have no idea whether to characterise him as ‘enabler’ or ‘co-conspirator’… but it surely isn’t ‘victim’. That’s all I’m saying.
            Thanks for your response.

            • DodoTheLaser

              I respectfully disagree. Marty is responsible for a lot of shit, but he is a victim too.
              This is why so many people bought into the whole Clear and OT juju – it’s a manipulative,
              mind-controlling organization. I don’t have my hopes high, but give Marty more time.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Hi Dodo. I’m going to play semantics, I know, but to me Marty is not victim, but casualty. The difference being that he KNEW, from being the perpetrator for a time, precisely what this game really was… unlike any other Sea Org member who is deceived the majority of the time and is therefore true ‘victims’. He’s the Snape to Scientology’s Voldemort. He has his own motivation for re-surfacing on the opposite team, and it isn’t for the “Greater Good”. Snape (Marty) was betrayed by Voldemort (DM) not because he was discovered traitor, but because Voldemort decided Snape’s continued survival was now hampering Voldy’s plans for dominance. You can be sure Marty would still be there had DM not betrayed him. That’s the difference in my eyes.

            • DodoTheLaser

              You might be right. But we really don’t know.

              I didn’t leave just because my feelings were hurt.
              In fact, they tried to keep me from leaving by offering
              all kinds of goodies and tried to get me to rejoin later.

              I left because my BS radar was going RED and loud.

              I imagine Marty had even better settings, yet he left too.

              Only time will tell, I suppose.

            • aquaclara

              One thing about reading a day behind here at the Bunker, ya get to see the whole conversation unfold.

              Dodo, you’ve got me crying and cheering and smiling and in a torrent of mad all at the same time.

              Good BS radar there. Unbelievable post thread. Now I need chocolate. Here – would you like some, too? They are extra yummy, caramel-filled treats today.

            • DodoTheLaser

              :):)

          • DodoTheLaser

            Good post, Mat. Thank you.
            Sorry about the nightmares, I get those about once a month,
            like I’m back on staff, etc., it really sucks. I’ve heard they go away
            after a while, so there is hope.
            You and Amy rock! Enjoy life!

            • PreferToBeAnon2

              How long have you been out Dodo?

            • DodoTheLaser

              About 2 years. After about 15 years on staff.

            • PreferToBeAnon2

              I’m so sorry the nightmares are still comin’. I can’t even begin to imagine what you must have gone through. So many people have described the process of recovering one’s balance after it–it seems incredibly hard.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Ahh… thank you Anon.

              I wasn’t physically abused or put in the hole like some Sea Org members,
              just a lot of emotional turmoil, like a lot of it. That’s what probably started me

              questioning things around me. As an auditor, all I ever wanted is to help people,
              (some scientologists cried when they heard I was declared, some shook their heads
              and moved with the flow, hoping I will do my A-E steps).

              It’s mainly feeling betrayed by Hubbard and his “church” after investing yourself in it
              for years. Plus, being humiliated and denigrated repeatedly for no good reasons,
              other then low stats on occasion, which most of the time you have no control over anyway.

              I was made to feel like a really bad person enough times for me to start acting like a “bad boy”, if it makes sense. And if it’s not making sense, I won’t blame you.

              End of rant. Thanks again, Anon.

            • Poison Ivy

              Personal question Dodo – do you consider yourself indie, part indie or all the way out?

            • DodoTheLaser

              I am no longer scientologist.
              All the way out that is.

              “Scientology needs well-meaning dupes like the machine needs oil”. ~ Veda (ESMB)

            • PreferToBeAnon2

              They are truly criminals to cause so much damage in so many ways. What I do know for sure is that your heart, integrity, and intention shine through.

            • DodoTheLaser

              You gonna make me cry, seriously.
              Stop it please. Thank you, though.
              Thank you very much, Anon.

            • Bella Legosi

              Oh Dodo! You and Tory are like my all time favorite Exes EVER……..I have a feeling that if we had met in real life; back when you were a clam; I would have still been your headbanging buddy! OR the most awesome wog babysitter ever

              :)

            • DodoTheLaser

              Thank you, dear Bella!

              Headbanging buddy – love it! :) :) :) YES!

              Tory and me are you fave Exes EVER?!! Whoa!

              Tory is a legend that was partly instrumental in me getting out…
              Just by reading and watching her stuff on line.
              Did you see her talking to Billy Sheehan?!
              Fucking rockstar OT fail of the magnitude.
              Billy, that is.

              Tory and I talk on the phone once or twice, just for laughs.

              She is such a cool lady, indeed!

              That said, thanks again.

              I’m just a Dodo dude, with some thoughts and riffs.

              Loves.

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes, you read that one right Dodo! Tory and Angry Gay Pope’s videos are what I found and watched early on and prolly led me here.

              :)

              All the loves back to ya! It is a good day to be alive isn’t it? Would you have thought back in ’94 or ’95 you would be where you are and happy? That is definitely worth saluting and ceremonially headbanging in my opinion! *or mocking Travolta in bad disco dance*

              http://youtu.be/eLwkT5vAzCE

            • DodoTheLaser

              Thanks, Bella! You are kind!

              I am in this mood:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuJ0sP57ywU

              And this:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNGee0_pXxY

              It’s all good though.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Thanks, Bella! You are kind!

              I am in this mood:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuJ0sP57ywU

              And this:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNGee0_pXxY

              It’s all good though.

            • Bella Legosi

              Not bad, sir!

              Currently I am listening to some Mozart while I puruse OTVIII’s blog (I just recognized an OSA agent that stood right in my bubble while I talked to the Squirrel Buster guy about Heber. Donatella is her name. Kinda creeped me right out when I started reading that post, I had to comment) and then wast some time berfore bed reading about Mongolian Invasions of Russia on Wikipedia :D

              http://youtu.be/-p6WEAxBmLo

              This program is nutz! I showed this to my ex and he was sucked in for an hour. The most classical he’d ever allowed himself to listen to willingly.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Ahh.. Mozart. Hard not to like. Dude was truly good.

            • Bella Legosi

              Aye, Mozart and Bach……..true godfathers of rock n roll, especially heavy metal

            • DodoTheLaser

              Hell yeah!

              And Ludwig Van Beethoven

              [IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/2qc0zrt.jpg[/IMG]

              He wrote wickedly great music even after going def.
              All he had is an organ and his imagination.
              Imagine if he got a hold of an Ibanez guitar, Marshall amps and some pedals?!

              Beethoven is metal as fuck.

            • Bella Legosi

              Yes he is! As much as I love my Ludwig…….Amadeus still has my heart. He was a child prodigy and only wrote his music once. That takes mad genius writing what he had once, no copies, just dictation! But then when I hear Sebastian Bach I have to admit his stuff really does rival everyone of them (and he came first)!

            • tetloj

              That’s about the same time I fell down the rabbit hole as a never been in – learning about this shit same time as you.

          • http://www.rediscoverscientology.com/blogs/joe-howard.html Joe Howard

            Mat, agreed 100% about the differences between Marty and Miscavige. Speaking of dreams, my own dreams have become progressively more interesting, from being back at the base and having to blow again to actually beating the crap out of Miscavige. The last one was Miscavige having been removed from power and confessing his wrongdoing. So, I must be healing!

        • richelieu jr

          All that is fine on a one on one personal level and I too salute your broad-mindedness and personal strength…

          That said, as Marty has noticed it is often those of us who have not suffered at all on your level who are the most unforgiving.. and I say:

          At the very elast a Truth Hearing with manesty for those who come TOTALLY clean not like Marty with hs half assed ‘I was great Warrior braggadoccio of a humble brag..
          And an equivalent of the De-Nazification program with all you who are having nightmares compensated and your psychological care paid for from that big Billion-dollar fund that was paid for by your tears.

          Failing that, I really wouldn’t piss on Marty and DM if they were on fire.

        • FistOfXenu

          When I heard him say he always knew it was wrong it really made it worse for me. To me that means he wasn’t fooled into thinking he was “doing the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” and that takes away any excuse. So he’s beating up on some guy or fair gaming somebody or running some op against somebody and in his head there’s nothing about “this is for the greater good” or “you deserve this”, just “I’m doing this and I know it’s wrong”? But he wants us to feel sorry for him? And now he gets all whiny and weepy and feels sorry for himself because he got a little of his own treatment? From the way he talked in that documentary he doesn’t even think he needs forgiveness. He’s moved on and so should we.

          Bullshit Marty. Bullshit. From top to bottom.

      • i-Betty

        Wow, that is incredibly forgiving. :)

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Sorry for butting in. I support forgiving and understanding and helping those who wish to just be themselves. But please, this is Not about people being themselves. Have your read Marty’s blogs and the comments? Did you read the hate that his commenters flung on people like Derek Bloch just this past week, attacking with Hubbard’s tech approval, using his definition of victim and how to “handle” victims? If being themselves includes hurting people, there are going to be comments.

        Have you listened to the pronouncements of the Purif being valid and valuable and forget the science, or those who are stating they plan to organize to go into schools to get Hubbard’s study and Purif tech to the kids? Let’s not pretend that we are here because of any other reason than the Human Rights Abuses and the Crimes and Fraud and harm that scientology has inflicted. Some of us consider dragging children through Hubbard’s sec checks and Purif as child endangerment. I don’t care what flavor scientologist someone claims to be, that is going to meet objections and scrutiny. It does Not equate into unforgiving or counter productive. Okay, rant over.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          “Okay, rant over”

          Um, not entirely over….let me add….YEAH….What she said!!!

        • Mat Pesch

          Honestly I haven’t looked at Marty’s site (and a few of the others) for many months as I can’t stomach to watch the bickering over who’s flavor is best, right, etc. I personally have no use for any of it. I read Spackle’s post and I wanted to give a viewpoint. My viewpoint is that Scientology tends to whack a person mentally. It can be pretty extreme. I lean toward giving the person a chance to recover (a slow and never ending process). At the same time my wife Amy Scobee and I have worked with various forms of media and governments to expose the crimes and abuses of Scientology Inc and David Miscavige.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Thanks, Mat. I more than understand good people can do bad things momentarily around sociopaths, and definitely I know the scientology mind blast. I appreciate hearing from those who knew someone personally and speaking up on their behalf.

          • Poison Ivy

            Amy’s book was really powerful, Mat.

          • monkeyknickers

            I totally agree with you Mat. The mental damage done to these people is profound and long lasting and FUNDAMENTAL. Scientology is like a barbed hook or an arrow – the more you struggle to get free of it, it sets its teeth in even harder.

            All you can do is wait thru whatever time it takes to tease it out without ripping yourself up beyond repair.

            In a case like Marty Rathbun’s, it simply isn’t a matter of whether or not he’s contrite enough for us. It’s not about abjection. It just IS. It’s a slow and painful process to realize you’re not actually immortal, and that you wasted your one shot on a conman’s drug fueled game of Let’s Pretend.

            I’m not saying we shouldn’t hold others accountable. Or that we need to coddle and forgive and forget. Truly – EVERY time I hear Marty speaking blithely about the RPF (before he was sent there – up until that point it was evidently okay) or shooting the shit with friends about harassing people and grinding them into nothing for some minor transgression against Miscavige, I want to get a ring with my sister’s face wrought in metal and punch that guy in the face. But it would be pointless. It takes how long it takes to be able wipe those toxic, filthy, cobwebs away. Even if it’s years and years and years. And the closer that moment of true realization comes to smack you in the face, the tighter the noose gets – until it finally breaks. And then you’re free. For victims of scientology that happens very slowly.

            I feel as though our “job” is to tell the truth without rancor and drama and way high expectations. Like Derek Bloch did (above ) so beautifully. We need to show the person the mirror and then wait for them to open their eyes.

            There’s really nothing else you can do. It takes how long it takes. Scientology is especially ghoulish in its ability to cling to your mind and soul until they’re on life support. And I honestly think that the paint is starting to flake at Marty’s house.

            Trying to face what a monster you had been, how many people’s lives you’ve soiled and robbed . . . . it takes time. And a heartache and self hatred I can’t even imagine.

            I read (in the extremely small print) some of the depositions Rathbun gave for Lisa McPherson’s ex lawyer recently. There are a couple of references that Rathbun, before his blog started, had called her auntie to apologize for his role the disgusting treatment of Lisa’s life and death. And she has every right in the world to say, Fuck you, asshole, and stick your fucking apology STRAIGHT up your ass. I’m simply saying that the decompression time for facing yourself takes awhile.

            It’s not that we need to be (collectively) Gandhi – but we DO need to be realistic. And wait. And wait some more.

            • DodoTheLaser

              It doesn’t amaze me anymore how understanding, intelligent and compassionate most people outside scientology are. Thank you, MK. You have a really good heart.
              I hope Marty will read it.

            • richelieu jr

              I ma not interested in Marty Rathbun’s personal development and in him ‘seeing the light’.

              I am glad so many of you exes are healing in such a beautiful and profound way and I am moved by your posts every day. I agree that holding on to hate is certainly not the way forward fr you guys.

              I am interested in stopping cancer before it metastasizes again and begins destroying new lives. And right now Marty is Typhoid Mary.

            • monkeyknickers

              I appreciate that – but it’s like asking my mom to order our dim sum in Mandarin after her first Chinese class. She can’t. She just CAN’T. We can demand a certain schedule for progress, but it doesn’t mean shit, you know? It takes how long it takes.

              I’m as impatient as the next person, but I have to put that aside and take stock of the situation for what it is. Then we can push thru the fastest.

              Someone somewhere said that IndieSci is a soft landing for survivors. To which I say – great. Little by little they can take the training wheels off.

              And – well, I actually don’t even know this but – I doubt Marty Rathbun is bringing non scientologists (new lives) into the faith. Both he and the church are dipping from the same empty cup at this point. All we can do is watch, and be visible, and be truthful, and wait for these kids to get some damn sense.

              And while we’re waiting, we can do fun stuff like dance to Single Ladies with our three year old nieces. One such example is sitting in my lap at this very moment telling me ToddlerTalk to get the fuck off the computer and turn the stereo on. She is a relentless taskmaster. All I can do is obey. :)

            • Kim O’Brien

              awww…you are all full of love and optimism …i loved that part of being pregnant ( i mean that ..no sarcasm ) You are going to be our official ” cheerer upper ” …

            • monkeyknickers

              God is THAT what it is?! I thought I was going to have to turn my Self-Righteous Revolutionary card in. :))

            • Kim O’Brien

              I was ..wait for it …NICE and SWEET when i was pregnant!!! LOL . I actually felt full of love .., hope, joy…if i was not an atheist , it would have been a religious experience ;) I even loved being in labor for 24 hours ..( most of it until an emergency but no matter ) But , i suspect that you are just a nicer person than i am no matter what

            • FistOfXenu

              Monkeyknickers, that makes a lot of sense to me. What you wrote inspires me and in my head I want to be like that. How I feel walks a lot slower. But then I think of the people I know that were hurt by him and maybe would’ve lived longer without what he was part of and that makes it hard. But I’ll get there. You keep talking. I’ll keep listening. Maybe I’ll get there some day.

            • monkeyknickers

              You will honey. And my mother would be the first to tell you that I never shut up. She seems to think it’s a problem. Hmmm.

              Obviously every single word I utter is painfully smug advice. My present situation is all the proof you need. But I still support the idea.

              If you give yourself the latitude to be broken, instead of beating yourself up over and over because if you were a “strong” person, you’d just suck it up and soldier on . . . it’s crap. It’s compartmentalizing and it’ll fuck you up more in the long run. The “I just told myself to get over it!” group of kids will be dealing with ulcers and nightmares much longer than you.

              You get to be broken, FOX. Because if ignore the wound, you can’t know where to put your band-aid.

              Also: please note above the caveat that I’m full of shit and my life is in pregnant shambles at the moment. :)))

            • FistOfXenu

              Thanks but I can’t excuse myself that easy. $cientarCONon didn’t happen to me it happened to people I love and care about. Proxy anger isn’t really any better than proxy guilt I know. But things I saw have been with me for a long time. This isn’t like an accident or a natural disaster. This is malicious self righteous criminal people destroying other people’s lives so they can be rich and comfortable and feel powerful. This is parasites sucking the life and happiness out of people. It’s all deliberate. I don’t get to be broken. I watched and then picked up the pieces I could and buried the pieces I couldn’t. And I know plenty of people here had it a lot worse because these bastards just keep doing it and they’ll keep going til they’re stopped.

              But all that doesn’t mean I have to be an ass about it. I really need to learn from the better people here. There’s plenty of you that have a better handle on getting the balance right.

      • aquaclara

        I’m sorry about your family and also about the PIs, Mat, after all the mess of years in the cult. Hope some who are still trapped see your message and your words of support. Glad you made it, despite the crap heaped upon you and your family. This stuff makes me sick beyond belief, but I do believe that the more people know, the better chance there is that this can end. Nobody deserves to have their life destroyed in the name of religion, real or fake.

      • Espiando

        The difference is, Mat, that you and Amy have done so much to get the news out about what these creeps are all about. You’ve earned your status as Enemy Of The State, and I’m glad that the cult wasted their money just to get some candid photos of you and Amy enjoying life again after having your soul crushed for so long. Marty? He pissed off for four years until he surfaced, he’s done a few minor (some might say inconsequential) mea culpas, and now he’s Scientology’s Martin Luther (self-proclaimed). If Marty was such a threat, why hasn’t CST sued him for violation of copyright? For that matter, why haven’t they gone after Les or the Lembergers? If they went after Steve Hall for publishing those checksheets…you know, I wouldn’t know who to root against.

        I dunno. Mat, you and the missus just keep on being who you are and what you are. And what you are to me are heroes.

        • Mat Pesch

          Thank you Espiando and everyone else who commented. Obviously there are a lot of aware and intelligent people on this site, each making good points. One thing for sure, a large social mess has been created which needs to be capped and cleaned up. A public awareness campaign is a large part of the answer. Anon and many others are leading the way in that respect and have been and continue to be VERY EFFECTIVE.

      • Espiando

        The difference is, Mat, that you and Amy have done so much to get the news out about what these creeps are all about. You’ve earned your status as Enemy Of The State, and I’m glad that the cult wasted their money just to get some candid photos of you and Amy enjoying life again after having your soul crushed for so long. Marty? He pissed off for four years until he surfaced, he’s done a few minor (some might say inconsequential) mea culpas, and now he’s Scientology’s Martin Luther (self-proclaimed). If Marty was such a threat, why hasn’t CST sued him for violation of copyright? For that matter, why haven’t they gone after Les or the Lembergers? If they went after Steve Hall for publishing those checksheets…you know, I wouldn’t know who to root against.

        I dunno. Mat, you and the missus just keep on being who you are and what you are. And what you are to me are heroes.

      • Spackle Motion

        Mat, while I do appreciate the need to have a new start I cannot stand by while people like Marty that perpetrated the crimes are not charged and tried for their actual crimes. What he did during his Scientology tenure consist of actual, chargeable crimes. He was a mob enforcer who made conscious decisions that led to actions resulting in criminal culpability.

        Using your logic, then would you also forgive Miscavige if he one day decides to get out and live a normal life? Miscavige, Rinder, Rathbun, and a whole host of others have actual crimes (not Scientology’s definition of crimes) that led to countless civil and criminal frauds, misrepresentations, undue influence leading to suicides, harassment, criminal obstruction of justice, covering up child sex abuse, promoting illegal child labor, coerced abortions, the destruction of countless families, felony assault and battery, and robbing so many of their childhoods.

        I’m impressed that you can forgive someone of all of that, and I’m not being sarcastic. But fortunately for the general principles of the social contract, there are laws against all of these actions and Rathbun is one that currently got away with everything (and more) that I wrote above.

      • Television88

        mat…help me as a total outsider understand your plight, if you think it is possible or even care too.
        Maybe there is a background page on this site I haven’t found yet.
        But why would you spend 27 years in this Sea Org group and NOT feel hate? I am assuming that your family was part of this cult and thus they were fine with you being there??
        Did you have friendships or relationships with people on the outside?

    • Kim O’Brien

      he needs to climb down off the cross because someone else could really use the wood

      • monkeyknickers

        Oh you make me laugh girl.

    • richelieu jr

      It’s like a torturer from a 3rd world country escapes and lives under different name finds a woman that loves him, but ‘Oh, ze Marty he ees deepresst!” She finds his old torture manuals and dust them off- Why don’t you try picking up the old tools? You know better now! You won’t kill anyone on fact you probably will make them better.A t any rate you will feel better doing what you were born to do!”

      Marty Rathbun was born t be DMs lackey. now he thinks he can be the ‘bigger man’… Not until he stops doing exactly what DM told–always told him to do.

      I know that Marty Rathbun hasn’t apologized to everyone he hurt because he still has fingers– They would have been worn down to stumps simply from dialing all the numbers…

    • DamOTclese2

      “Just because he escaped and now has different labels doesn’t change one lick of what he did.”

      Or Rinder, either.

      What Rathbun seems to me to be doing is trying to seize power from Miscaviage, seemingly doing it only for monetary gain, not out of any higher ideal. When looking at scams, bunko, and frauds one has to ask oneself how many of these bunko artists know it’s a fraud and how many actually believe that it works somehow, and as James Randi has repeatedly said, unless the bunko artists admit in public for the record that they know it’s a fraud, one must assume that they’re merely deluded; so it is with Rathbun and Rinder, yet it doesn’t make them any less the delusional loons that they are.

      My opinions only, as always.

      • villagedianne

        Marty seems more like a person who has to believe in an ideal, or a cause, than someone acting just for mercenary reasons.
        I think he’s slowly coming out of the trap. Yes, his hands are very dirty.

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          I believe he is struggling to still feel relevant.

      • phronsie

        I would think it’s not just about money; he lost a lot of status when things fell apart for him in the cult. He lived for decades in a rigid system that gave his world an encompassing framework, it also gave him a relatively lofty position over most of the herd and it gave him a free hand to terrorize, dominate, and control others guilt free; no wonder he was depressed when he lost it all. No wonder he jumped at the chance to rebuild that, but he’s got to utilize the soft sell because he’s trying to build on the gun-shy walking wounded. He’s got a lot of saying “peace peace” before he can bring out the heavy hand….

        “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.” Jer 6:14

        • FistOfXenu

          2nd biggest fish in a little pond got thrown out of the old pond by the biggest fish after yrs of faithful tail kissing. Ex-2nd biggest fish went off in a sulk and then dug another littler pond where he could be the biggest fish. New biggest fish in littler pond gets really unhappy when somebody doesn’t treat him like the biggest fish and he gets sulky when asked to tell the whole story about what he did when he had to all that tail kissing. New biggest fish is still word-clearing “karma”.

          The End

    • FistOfXenu

      He maybe thought this would show how’s he’s a great warrior and hero but I saw a lot to confirm that the guy’s living in a different guh-LAX-y from the rest of us. In his guh-LAX-y he really is too important to face up to what he did. The only time he looked upset was the brief moment he was saying how he was getting a taste of his own medicine and maybe it was his karma to be harrassed. Awww, poor baby.

      Yeah Marty, you think that little bit of surveillance was reaping what you sow? Compare it to what you did to so many people to so many years. Think about all the people you screwed over and see their faces and think about what you did to them and what happened to them because of you. You got a whole lot more waiting for you. Payback will be a bitch.

  • SciWatcher

    Question: if someone pays for auditing from an Independent like Marty, do they get a tax write-off?

    • Spackle Motion

      I’d like to see them try and get sued by the IRS for it. That would be a legal-popcorn moment. That lawsuit would be one that could possibly crack open the secret IRS-Scientology deal.

      • Mary_McConnell

        Hardly. That’s like calling the police and reporting your neighbor for abusing their kids ( when they aren’t) so the police will take child abuse reports more seriously.

    • Xenu, Lord of Kobol

      I wonder if the “repair” sessions are free to atone for his time as the enforcer ….

    • Mary_McConnell

      Of course not. He’s not running a church.

      • richelieu jr

        Neither in Miscavige and he doesn’t pay a cent.

        • EnthralledObserver

          That’s right. It makes me wonder though… what is Marty selling his woo woo as? Religion, Therapy, Product??? Is he following all the rules for whatever choice he has decided to go with?

          • PreferToBeAnon2

            I don’t believe he is “selling” it as a fixed amount. It’s contributions; and the amount iswhatever the person feels is an appropriate with a little upfront.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Ok… I see. I’d still appreciate it if someone could explain how that worked… i.e. how it is set up from a tax/business pov and how the money is treated and justified with regard to the rules and laws of businesses where he is from.
              And I’ve never understood this whole ‘donation that’s not voluntary’ thing. That screams SCAM to me in big, bold letters!

    • EnthralledObserver

      I’ve put that question to Marty in many forms several times… he won’t answer it, and won’t even allow that question to be asked on his blog. It is a mystery… apparently.

      • richelieu jr

        If The US accepts Scientology as religion, the they pretty much have to accept that Marty is practicing his religion.

        When there’s schism in the Episcopalian church, the IRS doesn’t sit down and decide which is right on matters of doctrine, they just go– “OK, now there’s two of these things.” Would you relaly wish it otherwise?

        This n fact, would be a great way to bring Davey’s scam to its knees. If Marty got a tax break, the CoS would sue, sue, sue the IRS.. But they’d have no standing. And if they could start shoveling in the cash as well, then there’s suddenly be a lot more mini-LRHs out there all of a sudden…

        I hesitate event to say this openly I have been hinting at this for while when I speak of Marty ‘metastasizing’, but there it is.

        • EnthralledObserver

          I hear you. But Marty is making a living from his ‘religion’ which is against the rules, is it not? And I just want to be sure he’s following ALL the rules, I don’t really care what he is doing, or who he is selling whatever to so long as wog laws and rules are respected!

          • richelieu jr

            No you can make a living. Priests are paid, after all…
            Used to eb they lived solely from the contribution of their parishoners (the Catholic Church liked it that way), much as Marty is doing.
            I don’t know the laws today, though…

            • EnthralledObserver

              As his personal income though he has to pay tax… it’s only non-profit organisations that don’t pay tax. I’m Aussie, so I guess our laws might differ in some ways, but I think they are mostly similar.

            • richelieu jr

              Priests don’t, though,as far as I remember…

              I’m French and you better believe our laws differ!

              Someone on this list has got to be a lawyer, don’t they?

        • SciWatcher

          “If The US accepts Scientology as religion, the they pretty much have to accept that Marty is practicing his religion”

          That’s why I was wondering about this. It opens up interesting questions.

          • And I don’t rent cars!

            Using Richelieu jr’s Catholic church analogy and priests: If Marty has been officially declared a SP, he therefore has been ‘excommunicated” by his “church” so could not claim tax exemption as an ” independent minister” who is still providing “ministerial services.” He basically has been defrocked so can no longer legally serve as a representative of his former “church”.
            If he has legally and formally set up his own church and applied and received tax exemption, that would be totally different. I would think he is simply considered as having his own business, a “sole proprietorship” or similar classification, unless he has incorporated. Then the question would be, is he invoicing his auditing sessions and whatever else he is doing to earn a living?
            But hey, I could be totally wrong on any or all those points. I am not a lawyer specializing in Catholic canon law, nor am I a tax preparer, and I don’t work for the IRS.
            (And as I get to the end of my post, I am now wondering why I am even bothering to say anything at all! Pffft.)

    • Kim O’Brien

      my parents have a friend who used to be a catholic priest. He left the priesthood..not a priest anymore . He does what i used to call ” hippie church ” ..sermons in parks, back yards ..yadda yadda…one Sunday a month . No money at all ..no collection basket. He does however ..perform marriages . He charges money for that ..and he pays taxes on it . ( i asked him that to his face cause that’s how i roll ;)

      He does not however , hear confession. That is a priestly duty

  • Donatella Kavenaar

    Channel 4 never contacted the Church to get our side of the story.

    The fact is that the Church of Scientology is flourishing and prospering like never before under the leadership of Mr. David Miscavige.

    • SciWatcher

      Hahahaha! Great sarcasm!

    • Eraz0r

      LULZ! you sound just like the guy from the 1st iraq war! what was his name? Comical Ali.
      Seriously you are deluded to even believe what you are typing.

      • ze moo

        “Baghdad Bob” was Saddam’s comical mouthpiece. He survived the occupation and last I knew he had a job with a Gulf State news organization (al jerzeria??)

        • Eraz0r

          In the US he was popularly known as Baghdad Bob, in the UK as Comical Ali, and in Italy as Alì il Comico

          He is alive and well and now working as a scientologist in clearwater.

    • Jgg2012

      Have you visited any orgs lately?

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      Do I miss some subtle sarcasm here? If not, wake up.

    • stillgrace

      Are you lost, gal? OSA is lying to you. Go back one blog post and read Tony’s words. He witnessed the film maker attempting to contact the “Church” (your word) numerous times. In fact, go back (post after post after post) and read, read, read! You are under-educated and misinformed.

      • Poison Ivy

        (Think this is snark.)

        • richelieu jr

          Let’s hope so!

    • ThetaTomato

      What the hell are you smoking?

    • SP ‘Onage

      Show me something tangible please. You are parroting what you hear from cult propaganda.

      Why doesn’t your leader speak up instead of you? Aren’t you getting tired of speaking on his behalf?

      • Donatella Kavenaar

        Where does one even begin to show the tangible successes of the Church of Scientology?

        We begin with the Ideal Churches in more than two dozen locations including those in such cultural centers as Madrid, New York, London and Berlin.

        Then we segue in a dazzling way to the Church’s social betterment programs designed as comprehensive global salvage campaigns that tackle and eradicate drug abuse, illiteracy, crime, and the wholesale psychiatric drugging of entire populations.

        And as if all of that weren’t enough, the Super Power Rundowns as well as OTIX and OTX are set to launch very shortly whereupon “straight up and vertical expansion” will take on a whole new meaning!

        • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

          Okay, I am now convinced that you’re being entirely sarcastic.

        • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

          Okay, I am now convinced that you’re being entirely sarcastic.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Oops, sorry…I missed the sarcasm the first time!

        • stillgrace

          You gave yourself away with that last paragraph. I concede … you’re funny!

          • Captain Howdy
            • PreferToBeAnon2

              I’m starting to need a Playbill here

            • stillgrace

              Mother of the Year and OSA POS … with a budding comedy career!! Upstat all the way!

            • DodoTheLaser

              [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/b63urc.jpg[/IMG]

              Despite scientologists’ popular belief, instilled by their famous founder, source, story-teller, prankster and a great con – L. Ron Hubbard – ARC breaks ARE the main reason for people leaving. Just check their Central Files.

              Haha!

        • Mat Pesch

          Donatella, are you being sarcastic? Is this a joke? LRH intended Super Power to be released over 3 decades ago. The chant of “Super Power is coming!” has been going on sine 1979! What good is a great BIG fancy buildings when the orgs inside them are insolvent. I wish there were orgs delivering so much that they needed expansion space and could pay for it themselves. How many cities are there like Las Vegas that combined the Day org, Foundation org and Celebrity Center into just one failing org? Many. The first OT VIII’s were made almost 30 years ago! OT IX and X have never been released because they do not exist. I hate to break the bad news but you have been lied to. Where is ED INT and Exec Strata, President of Scientology, Yeager, Ingber, Ray and Gelda Mitoff, LRH’s original messengers from the Apollo, etc, etc, etc? They have been declared, both inside and outside the Sea Org. Int Management was destroyed y the same person who destroyed the Mission Network – David Miscavige. Donatella, have you ever wondered why LA Org, ASHO and AOLA were able to squeeze into their current buildings back in 1978 (35 years ago) and have never needed expansion space? Its because they haven’t expanded despite being the “Birthday Game Winners” year after year, after year. Open your eyes and really look. I’m sure you work hard and want to believe the smoke and mirror events. You would think all the work and money being made available would result in such a thing. It isn’t unless its for Miscavige himself. Without exaggeration, the man lives like an Arab king. Go on Goggle Earth and see the $70 million dollar office building he had made for himself and a handful of staff. That is just the tip of the iceberg. Your trust has been betrayed. You and every Scientologist has been BADLY betrayed and played for fools. Sad but true. LOOK!

          • Captain Howdy

            It’s a joke.

            • SP ‘Onage

              Seriously? I was just going to post a can of whoop a$$ that took me forever to write. Glad I didn’t embarrass myself.

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Mat, we in RTC will handle this question for Donatella as she is presently occupied writing a program to a destroy Suppressive Person after which she will attack and smash SP’s on the internet using her cunning and deviance.

            The fact is that Super Power would have been released decades ago were it not for the nonstop wave of attacks on the Church by Psychiatry. As the Founder wrote, Scientology cannot exist in an atmosphere of Suppression and so it follows from this datum that Super Power could not have existed in the face of Suppression.

            But then again, COB RTC David Miscavige knew that a veritable construction rampage whereby Ideal Churches were built by the tens of thousands would overwhelm and shatter Suppression. And so it has became the Golden Age of Ideal Churches — which is to say the Golden Age of Tech 2 has crashed into the Ideal Churches such that the Golden Age of Tech 2 is fully Ideal and perfect.

            As for OTIX and OTX, both levels not only exist buy they were personally piloted by Mr. Miscavige who, in his infinite wisdom and goodness, and in all good conscience, would not release these levels until a sufficient quantum of Ideal Churches were established across the Planet, this

            Oases of Sanity, the Ideal Churches are ready to deliver OTIX and OTX the auditors for which are being trained at Flag. Moreover, Flag training is the eternal guarantee of flubless delivery of OT IX and OTX in all Ideal Churches.

            There is a special 50% “COB Discount” for prepayment of Super Power and OTIX and OTX. Please contact your local Ideal Church for details.

            • Donatella Kavenaar

              How dare you mock me, the Office of Special Affairs, or Mr. David Miscavige!

              You know you are the target of an OSA investigation along with https://scientologycelebrity.wordpress.com/

              OSA will find out who all of you are and we will find that you are connected to Anonymous!

              All of this is coming down in the next few months as OSA turns the tide and terminatedly handles all hatemongers online!

              Freedom of speech does not give anyone the right the Scientology religion.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Naawww… how come I am not the target of an OSA investigation…??? *is jealous*

            • DodoTheLaser

              I know. It’s getting trendy. History in the making.

            • richelieu jr

              I’m still waiting for my 50 dollars from Anonymous! Pikers!

            • DodoTheLaser

              Religion is free. Scientology is neither.
              (Great satire, “Donatella”!)

      • Donatella Kavenaar

        Where does one even begin to show the tangible successes of the Church of Scientology?

        We begin with the Ideal Churches in more than two dozen locations including those in such cultural centers as Madrid, New York, London and Berlin.

        Then we segue in a dazzling way to the Church’s social betterment programs designed as comprehensive global salvage campaigns that tackle and eradicate drug abuse, illiteracy, crime, and the wholesale psychiatric drugging of entire populations.

        And as if all of that weren’t enough, the Super Power Rundowns as well as OTIX and OTX are set to launch very shortly whereupon “straight up and vertical expansion” will take on a whole new meaning!

    • BuryTheNuts2

      I see dead people!
      Oh, oops, Scientoligists….all fourteen that are left!

    • EnthralledObserver

      What NEVER??? Are you sure?
      I do wonder where those written statement came from then… made up?
      lol

    • Captain Howdy

      Hey you’re the OSA second in command cow who has the junkie son that Karen helped out because you were too busy playing “space cooties” to be bothered with, right?

      Wow, OSA second in command in the bunker..whoop dee do

      • Poison Ivy

        (I sense she may be working with OTVIIIisGrrrr8! Capt.)

    • i-Betty

      Oh do frock off, Donatella :D

    • Kim O’Brien

      how about you call your kid ? SHAME on you ..what kind of mother are you ?

    • Kim O’Brien

      how about you call your kid ? SHAME on you ..what kind of mother are you ?

    • tetloj

      Is this OTVIIIisGrrrr8’s cousin Donatella?

      • richelieu jr

        I’m presuming those up-votes are because they think this is brilliant Kaufman-Style theatre?

    • Still_On_Your_Side

      This has to be satire…..

    • DamOTclese2

      8 million clams and every one of them carries half a billion Body Thetans — that’s quite an accomplishment for the little dwarf!

    • Poison Ivy

      Where is OTVIIIisGrrrrrr8! tonight?

      • tetloj

        Slipping into/out of Donatella drag

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    I am thirty minutes in.

    “The squirrel buster were trusted high level Scientology members organized by the office of special affairs… sent down to get in my face and make my life a living hell.” Rathbun makes that sound like its a bad thing. It wasn’t bad when the harassment was headed in another direction.

    Chickens come home to roost. What goes around comes around. Karma.

    He also says, and I paraphrase, that the future of Scientology is with him. All that being the case, I hope I can enjoy another episode of Scientology vs. Marty Rathbun in the near future, perhaps as an annual TV special in the years to come.

    They all seem like clowns. They have always seemed that way to the vast, vast majority of observers.

    • richelieu jr

      ^^^^^^^^^^
      This yes 1000x this!

  • i-Betty

    I actually found this fascinating. I’d seen all the component parts separately on the web, of course, but having it all together here was great. Very near the end I saw a genuine moment of regret from Marty when he talked about karma. Perhaps the Evolution of Marty continues at a gentle pace? Did anyone else pick up on that, or is it my natural desire to see the good in everyone?

    I have to say, though, that Mosey rocked! Man, that poor woman has put up with some crap since she met her husband, but she retains her sense of humour and a quiet strength that I respect. Perhaps Marty Rathbun’s crowning achievement was marrying Mosey :)

    • SciWatcher

      Yeah, but she’s got to have read Dianetics, right? How the hell could she support anything relating to that?

      • i-Betty

        Yes, I totally get what you’re saying. It’s madness. She certainly comes over as an intelligent woman but I guess that, in trying to understand her husband, she signed up to the old “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” mantra.

      • Mary_McConnell

        If Marty is no longer calls himself a “scientologist’, I have no doubt that Mosey is calling herself one either. I am not even sure she ever called herself one to begin with but if she did, it was short lived. I say good for her.

        Leaving Scientology is a process, it’s an evolution out… Mosey may well be the guiding light helping Marty to see other points of view… he certainly has posted about some of them over the last year. I see a humbling effect on him. Mosey is a humble person and I admire her very much. He’s damn fortunate to have met and married her.

        • FistOfXenu

          I agree with you Mary but I think Marty’s stuck in that process. Maybe Step 3 or so. I think the whole process would scare the hell out of him and he’s not even close to facing the final steps. A part of me feels sorry for him and hopes Mosey can help him go the whole way and find some real peace. But every thing points to how he knows he did evil and now I see he says he knew it even when he was doing it. I wish that surprised me but it doesn’t. What it does is make it hard for me feel sorry for him. I’m gonna agree with Enthralled Observer that he’s a casualty but not a victim. I hope Mosey can lead him where he’s afraid to go and I hope he doesn’t drag her down with him.

          • Mary_McConnell

            Keep in mind that this was filmed last year… he may be stuck but I see that he’s not as stuck as before. That he now does not call himself a scientologist is remarkable progress. I suspect that there will be more as time and events go by. It took me many years to look on the internet… for some, catching on is easier than others. I wish I had had someone like Mosey in my life when I lived in fear , alone with my opinions and pain.

            • FistOfXenu

              I’ll keep hoping you’re right but pushing for him to change just in case you’re not. :)

      • Artoo45

        The show was edited in such a way as to give the impression that Mosey isn’t much of a can grabber of any sort. Just that she saw her man in pain and encouraged him to do what he loved. It’s hard to imagine him being with someone who isn’t a Scilon, but who knows? She seems to be a lovely person.

        • SciWatcher

          I think he’s said before though that he audits her.

          • loulai

            And she has made videos posted on his blog extolling the virtues of auditing.

      • loulai

        Marty had been auditing Mosey, (don’t know if that is still ongoing) and she was making her way up the bridge and he was posting her progress for a while).

    • stillgrace

      As much as I object to scientology, I must confess to some hardcore respect for Marty’s decidedly better half … Mosey does rock!

      • richelieu jr

        Lousy taste in men…

        And an incredibly bad idea in encouraging hi to dust off his Scilon books and start infecting people again…

        I actually think Marty did try to do the right thing- When he was laying on the bed feeling horrible and slowly dying.

        • stillgrace

          Personally, I can’t wish dying in bed from depression on anyone. I do wish Mosey had suggested he go back to school and get a license to practice therapy or become a life coach … something like that, not involving an e-meter. I bet he would be good at that.
          Who knows? He might take that path … he’s definitely in search mode. Nothing’s over until it’s over.

          • richelieu jr

            I hear you, but for me better to saty still thana ctively run people down even nif it gets you out of depression…

            And yes, anything, opena gas station, flip burgers pick your nose, ANYTHNG but rep-open those shitty books again….

            And no, nthing’ sover untill it’ sover, but w eknow one thing: The $cientology virus ix hard ot kill.Most cults die with their leader- THis one was too profitable. Why is MArty doing it?

            1) He doesn’t know what else to do
            2) He think that amongst the BS there is good stuff.
            3)He thinks he can fix the bad stuff and make it evolve as he goes on
            4) It makes money

            Which of the above does NOT apply to L Ron Hubbard?

            Hubbard invented the nonsense and it still ate him.

            Marty is one down because he actually think Hubbard was telling the truth on occasion…

    • Zana

      Yes… Mosey is pretty amazing. I saw him as quite thoughtful, trying to sort through all of this while being under attack by so many must be very challenging. Must be difficult to discover underneath it all what it is that he really believes for himself or wants to do. It’s taken me a full year to kind of stabilize myself and I was just a PC on the outside. Whew. I found it so disorienting I couldn’t work for a while. And nobody was attacking me….except Co$ calling and asking for more and more money. Or to come to more and more events.

      • Lady Squash

        I found myself wanting to see Marty and Mose embracing the squirrel busters–taking them tea, inviting them to dinner, taking them sandwiches–thus proving that the Squirrel Busters were not succeeding in making their lives a living Hell.
        I do wonder why the Church has not sued Marty for copyright infringement.

        • richelieu jr

          I wanted to see Mose look at the Squirrel Busters, back at her ‘Warrior’ Husband, back at the Squirrel Busters and realize they were just the same, then hop in the car ans burn rubber getting out of there.

        • And I don’t rent cars!

          He’s not stupid. Basically, he “grew up” in the “church” with Miscavige and they would know most of each other’s crimes or secrets so I would think he has something he’s holding onto as “insurance.”
          Plus, I thought all the copyrighted materials, except for OTVIII, had been leaked onto the internet by now.

    • efish

      marty’s evolution does indeed continue. i’ve been periodically checking his blog and he seems to be evolving from “marty rathbun, scientologist purist” to “marty rathbun, spiritual seeker of bits from everywhere”. it’s actually kinda… nice. not that i am into spiritual seekerhood or such foolishnesses but hey, for marty, that is one huge step and i wish him… some peace.

    • Zana

      I saw it. I also saw the real torment that he has been under. How difficult it must have been to have his whole world fall apart and at the same time endure all the attacks from all over (not just Co$) and still try to discover what’s important to him and what he truly believes. I loved seeing him starting to audit again. He looked happy. Yes, he did a lot of bad things. I’m sure he’s dealing with all that. And I don’t know what I would have done in that situation. What to say, what not to say. ?? I’m sure he doesn’t want to get attacked by the police as well and thrown in jail for whatever he might have done and thereby become a scapegoat for Co$. Lots of currents surging there.

      Yes…his crowning achievement was Mosey. It speaks for both of them to create a new life out of all this.

    • Poison Ivy

      “Perhaps Marty Rathbun’s crowning achievement was marrying Mosey :)”
      Agreed i-Betty! I sincerely hope he proves himself worthy of her. She’s already gone through so much for him.
      And like you, I am wont to try and see the good in everyone too. But my take on Marty in this doc was he still has ten foot walls around his own vulnerability – which to my mind precludes him facing his wrongs and righting them.

  • ze moo

    “the nonsensical Church denials are confined to text at the end”, the telling quote about the whole thing. “Nonsensical’ is the least nasty thing you can say about the ‘church’.

    Marty will never ‘tell all’ until he is not dependent on earning a living by channeling LRH.

    • Zana

      I LOVE Texas Sprinkler Tech. :-)

  • LemonLemon

    Tom Cruise describing DM as “tolerant and compassionate” just gets me every time I see it. We all know that could not be further from the truth,

    • stillgrace

      At that moment in the film, I had a sudden sneezing fit, like ten sneezes in a row! I must be allergic to butt-kissing lies or something.

    • i-Betty

      Yes. Puke, puke, puketty-PUKE!

    • EnthralledObserver

      Don’t forget “most intelligent” WTF… Tom Cruise doesn’t get out much, or what?

      • LemonLemon

        LOL sure, Tom, if by “most intelligent” you mean “blatheringly idiotic”. Keep in mind that Tom graduated high school. We can’t say the same for Tiny Dancer over there.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Oh wait…Marty describing himself as the best of the opinion leaders that Tom Cruise admired And the one and only who saved his kids, family life, marriage, life, and career. Then Davey came and spoiled everything. Honestly, what do first time viewers think when they hear this? It reminded me of Little Rascals fighting over Darla, or Alfalfa.

      • Poison Ivy

        Yes, THDNE – I was just thinking the same thing (above.)

    • Poison Ivy

      Speaking of Tom Cruise, did anyone pick up Marty’s assertion that he “saved his marriage, his kids and his career”? Ummmm….he didn’t “save” his marriage – he facilitated the end of it! And come on. Tom Cruise’s career was never in jeopardy – that is, until he got tight with COB and started jumping on couches, etc.

      A little grandiose there, aren’t we?

      The truth is, it wasn’t about Marty getting close to Tom – it seems with COB, it’s about anyone doing anything that is remotely competent that threatens him. Anyone who “makes it go right” for COB is always just a few years, months or days from a lifetime in The Hole.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I did catch that bit about the marriage… I thought maybe it was a slip of the tongue, unintentional… but then again, maybe Marty is used to exaggerating and twisting the truth.

        • Poison Ivy

          Well, I suppose in CO$ terms, Marty did indeed “save his marriage”, in that COB’s end game was to end Tom’s marriage to Nicole and get him a nice new Scientology wife who would not interfere with the mission…

      • FistOfXenu

        That comes out in Jenna’s book too doesn’t it? If you don’t make things go right YSCOHB. If you do make things go right YSCOHB and then you get stick in the Hole. Anybody know who Davey gets to beat people now that MR & MR are out?

    • villagedianne

      How can you say that? DM was so compassionate that he arranged a new wife for Tom. DM was so compassionate that arranged to have Bella and Connor convinced that Nicole was an SP. DM was so compassionate to the world that he made Tom the poster boy for Scientology, thereby almost destroying his career. I don’t know how Tom can stand all that compassion!

      • FistOfXenu

        And he’s so compassionate he’s done who knows what to make Shelly disappear.
        Hey Davey, WHERE’S SHELLY?

  • Inbtelligence

    Don’t know how my friend, Neill Bradley, in Dublin, got the raw video files, but nothing surprises me with Neill. He has done some awesome work behind the scenes <3

    Neill sent me this a few minutes ago to use segments when needed:

    http://exscientologistsireland.org/video/

    right click on scien@war.mp4 and save it

    • Inbtelligence

      Neill Bradley It is also here at vimeo now – https://vimeo.com/68579176 – have the raw video if you want it pm me for link… ok i’m clocking off its late here and time for bed.

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        Thanks! Good to have it in case youtube yanks it.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Booski on WWP said it would also be available on RU

          • Mary_McConnell

            Much better site to avoid take down notices and attacks. Thanks

      • tetloj

        Kisses – also fabulous for some of us with sucky bandwidth

  • PreferToBeAnon2

    Great job Tony!

    No matter how long a documentary about $cientology is, and regardless of what abuses, crimes and craziness they present, it will never be long or deep enough.

    • stillgrace

      True words, there! I can think of ten more documentaries (easily, for starters) that need to be filmed about the abusive events and stories. And one compilation of all the loony behavior – Crazy OTVIII George, Puthy Smeller, Junkyard Dog Allender and now Cackle Witch, can start it off. Makes me wonder how WBM’s documentary is coming along. I’ve been waiting a long time for that one!

  • BosonStark

    I finished it. I thought it filled a good gap. It was a big relief to me that the Brit narrator pronounced Zee-new correctly. Kind of sad that Marty got involved in a cult instead of becoming one of America’s great novelists.

    I don’t know what the public will make of it. I hope it riles the CoS clams. You know what would be really freaky? If the Squirrel Busters did spring up with no Miscavige or OSA direction whatsoever. I think there’s less than 1% chance of that being true, but if it is true, they were probably funded by Brian Culkin. That man was up to no good from day one!

    If the non-Xenu-luvin public did understand some or most of this, Tony helped a lot with his clarifications.

    It was kind of un-CoS-like to say Marty hasn’t hurt membership stats, whereas before I believe with Marty, Rinder, and Debbie Cook, they claimed that stats soared as soon as their SP asses were out of there.

    What a bunch of loons. I got kind of a charge out of the indie meeting where one indie said that someone he met was receptive when he explained he was not in the cult, but an independent loon — I mean Sciloontologist. Yup, people have a lot of respect for the name, L. Ron Hubbard.

    • dbloch7986

      Scientologists would never be allowed to set up such an outrageously public display without clearing it with OSA. Scientology attempts to control all of it’s followers 100% of the time.

      • Poison Ivy

        No, we have evidence that this was a Miscavige-run operation from the get-go. What was the name of the local (non-Clam) cameraman who has testified that he heard the head PI talking to COB’s communicators on the phone?

        • DodoTheLaser

          Bert Leahy?
          (Good guy now).

    • richelieu jr

      “It was a relief to me that the Brit narrator pronounced Zee-new correctly.”

      Did you think he’d say “Zed-nu”?

      • EnthralledObserver

        lol – Gosh… I think I’m stalking you now.

  • deanblair

    Thank you Tony for posting this. All of the Scientologists are nuts and it shows in this documentary. There is no other church on Earth like this and I am thankful for that. The Scientology disclaimer written in text at the end is insufficient to disprove the allegations. It is similar to any criminal being sent to prison saying that they are innocent.

    • Zana

      How about that crazy woman screaming in the rain like an old Hag? Whew. Those Squirrel Busters were Scientologists! That’s what Scientologists turn in to. Lemme outa here!

      Hopefully some of those still on the inside will wake up if they get a chance to see this.

      • http://twitter.com/Scientology_411 Scientology_411

        Yep, so much “spiritual enlightenment” at the top of the bridge. It’s worth noting that all of those Squirrel Busters were at various levels of “OT”.

        • Zana

          OMG. That’s what an OT looks like? They are insane. Psychotic. I guess maybe too many body thetans wiggling in their brains.

  • cre8tivewmn

    Thanks so much for the link! I enjoyed the documentary and thought it was very good. Loved the way they handled the official denials at the end. No photos, no video, just quotes. I thought the denial about Marty never being in the church management was particularly amusing. When will they understand that they can’t manage history? Hundreds of photos, videos, magazine articles, personal recollections, and more. exist to contradict them.

    • Poison Ivy

      “When will they understand that they can’t manage history?”
      Their doctrine encourages (nay, insists!) that they fabricate history every day. I don’t think they will every understand this as long as they are in the thrall of the mind fuck.

      • FistOfXenu

        I think you maybe just explained what’s going on in Marty’s head instead of confronting what he did. Maybe he’s got his own set of affirmations to rewrite how he sees himself?

      • Aspsusa

        Good point! Never thought about it from that angle before: isn’t scientology/dianutty/lrh’s ramblings pretty full of various forms of “creating” reality as needed? “Postulating” and “making it go right” and whatnot. So maybe all the ludicrous continuing re-writes of history, not to mention most of lrh’s non-fiction output, makes perfect sense within that system of belief?

        Scary thought: what if COB instead of being incompetent and (nicely put) irrational was a good magician/mentalist? (A la Darren Brown)

        • FistOfXenu

          $cientology’s “reality” is agreed apparency isn’t it?

  • Zana

    Thank you for the link. And for the fabulous reporting, Tony!

    Wow… the denials at the end by the Co$ were bizarre. Especially when they had the clip of Crazy Davey acknowledging Marty, and then the church saying that Marty was never in the church management. Who is the psychotic liar here? Obvious Co$. They put it right out there where everyone can see.

    I wonder if someone is going to end up in the Hole for that.

    • Still_On_Your_Side

      The church’s claim that Marty was never in a position of power in the church flies in the face of the church’s motion to disqualify Garcia’s attorneys because of, in part, Marty’s involvement. What did the church argue? That Marty was high up in the church and learned legal strategies and other secrets.

      Oh, what a wicked web the church has woven…. Perhaps some talented person can make a film compilation of all of Miscavige’s deceptions placed against each other to show the contradictions.

      • Zana

        Great idea! Putting all the lies and contradictions up there in one film. Makes me laugh just thinking about it.

    • DamOTclese2

      They tried the same lie with Jessie Prince who was at one time second in command of Scientology. The insane crooks claimed that Jessie was never part of any management despite the fact that documents showed he was specifically held up as “second in command,” literally. All that came out when Rinder allegedly ordered dope to be planted in Jessie’s yard.

  • Captain Howdy

    Thanks Tony, the producers and the person who uploaded this.

    Other than that it’s just a bunch of delusional adults in a regressed state playing “kick the can”.

    • Poison Ivy

      As a content creator myself, I feel I must speak out against video piracy, but since this was televised, I don’t feel so bad about watching a non-licensed version.
      I sincerely hope that no one (mostly the filmmakers) lose money because of it. Since it was a 4-On Demand production, I’m wondering if the network loses revenue?
      May I suggest, if it becomes available for sale or rent, we all do the filmmakers a solid and buy or at least rent a copy, to make amends?

      • richelieu jr

        I find it hard to believe Tony would have posted it had they told him not to. He does have a personal relationship with these folks and is well-aware that they’ll read what he wrote about it.

  • SandiCorrena

    Mossy was very very good on camera, I agree – Tony as always brilliant!

  • SandiCorrena

    Mossy was very very good on camera, I agree – Tony as always brilliant!

  • SandiCorrena

    Mossy was very very good on camera, I agree – Tony as always brilliant!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    It’s a tough process shedding all the crazy stuff one gets into in Scientology.

    Marty and Mose look happier and Marty definitely came across as a lot calmer, at the end of the show.

    Mose Rathbun I liked her take on things!

    Tony you sure got in a lot of great comments!

    • stillgrace

      I thought every one of Tony’s appearances was excellent. Truth, insight, and credibility!

      • Poison Ivy

        Absolutely!

    • Zana

      Yes. Tony, you rock!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    This doco was far more in depth than I expected. Hat tip to the entire team. I thought the creepy sound track was overused and after the first half, it felt a bit strained. There were many other production values however that helped to stream the entire hour well and kept it interesting and surprising.

    I always enjoy your commentaries, Tony, because of your thorough background and journalist integrity. You are not afraid to state the truth and the obvious when others are not and I know you strive for fairness and balance. You made points such as how unfair it is scientologists don’t learn what is up on those OT levels from the beginning, or how the authorities are often unwittingly used by scientology management as just another tool.

    I still disagree about the importance of Marty’s blog as I have counted thousands who left because of Miscavige, or hundreds of Ex scientologists who have been there for years helping in many, many ways or Anons. I count only a few hundred independents, but I will say that I am grateful for Marty’s Blog as part of the whole lifeline that exists to help pull those out that feel stuck in the scientology nightmare.

    I was very encouraged at the end to see a portrayal of Independents joining “other groups” (okay, that raised my ire…why not give recognition of Anons and Ex Scientologists in this documentary?!) protesting together. Now That is something I call important historical significance.

    I don’t see that this is going to make scientology independents look like some persecuted religious splinter group though in any way, shape or form. My best estimation is viewers will realize that scientology isn’t just some nutty organization but a part mafia organization with unbalanced nutters for members. Marty comes off as their leader in his own mind, and speaks with the most alarming coldness through the deadest eyes while speaking of atrocities. The more he speaks, the more he comes off as a narcisstic personality….at best.

    I personally lost respect I thought I had for Mosey. She comes off very warm and personable and likeable, but then we see her doing that old self diagnosis, self treatment thing instead of getting Marty to see a psychiatrist as she describes a person in the midst of a depression. What turned me off was at around 42:50 into the film when she fumbles trying to morph the term of “enforcer” into someone who gets things done, rolls her eyes, and flips her head back, seemingly to toss off reality. It just screams “enabler” and I don’t know if that is true or accurate at all but I think a lot of viewers are going to get that impression.

    I have no idea what traction this will get in the U.S. I hope it will get to the California and Florida crowds, as well as European spots. Thank you, Anon? for making this available to us, and thanks to all who made this documentary possible. It was an excellent piece that I feel will get all kinds of factions thinking and talking.

    • dbloch7986

      Judging by the title, these guys were trying to portray the two sects of Scientology at war with each other. I think they did exactly that.

      Regarding Mosey’s reaction, you have to expect her to have some level of cognitive dissonance. She obviously knows of Marty’s history, probably more than she lets on. However, she loves the man and so of course in her mind, he can do no wrong, That’s just the way human psychology works.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        oh grasshopper…

        • stillgrace

          I know, I know, THDNE!!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            well, he’s going to university And he is starting out smart in many areas, more than me and many of us plus oh yeah, he’s young. psych courses on the lineup. It’s all good.

            • stillgrace

              … and with such a heart. After all he’s been through, it just amazes me. When I hit the lotto, I’m funding his documentary.

            • Poison Ivy

              And I will produce, write & direct it! But only if I can interview Tony O in a black t-shirt against a black background.

              Well done, Tony – best voice in the whole film.

      • Spackle Motion

        What you wrote regarding Mosey actually fits the general psychology of many men and women that are in abusive relationships.

        She’s purposefully not looking and he even taught her to do that on their first phone call.

        • SciWatcher

          My feelings exactly.

    • phronsie

      “I personally lost respect I thought I had for Mosey. She comes off very warm and personable and likeable, but then we see her doing that old self diagnosis, self treatment thing instead of getting Marty to see a psychiatrist as she describes a person in the midst of a depression. What turned me off was at around 42:50 into the film when she fumbles trying to morph the term of “enforcer” into someone who gets things done, rolls her eyes, and flips her head back, seemingly to toss off reality. It just screams “enabler” and I don’t know if that is true or accurate at all but I think a lot of viewers are going to get that impression.”

      This is a very good insight; something about her disturbed me on some small level and I couldn’t put my finger on it. Why would you so blithely encourage a man to go back to something that was apparently so destructive to him? Why would you so blithely put trust in a man who says, “Ignore what everyone else says about me; only trust what I have to say?” Was she attracted to the intrigue, was she attracted to the powerful and ruthless aspects of him and to the controversy? Was building back up his relationship with the tenets of Scientology and putting him in way of leadership again a way to get back in touch with those intriguing aspects, and does she secretly or subconsciously want to gain some of that reflected power? Does the conflict and her role as martyr and stalwart fulfill some need? I don’t know, but I do know I cringed when she said she pulled his old books out again.

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        Interesting thoughts…

  • dbloch7986

    It makes perfect sense that they are focusing on Marty. This was a program about the “Scientologists at War”. Nowhere is that more evident than with Marty himself.

    I must say that I absolutely love Mosey. Marty, unfortunately, reminds me of my father, who is also a dedicated Scientologist. I have seen my father looking as manic as that woman in the documentary.

    Speaking of mania, it never ceases to amaze me how Scientologists, in an effort to preserve their escapist utopia will proceed to levels of mania which are rivaled only by people like Alexander the Great and Napoleon.

    I have no idea if I would be able to keep my cool in the face of psychos like the squirrel busters. I would probably end up using “drapery tech” and “shrubbery tech”. Luckily for me, my gang infested neighborhood isn’t the most welcoming place for Scientologists and their PIs.

    I think the program was very good. The drama was not overdone. I enjoyed the visuals.

    I still am upset that Marty has not come to grips with what he has done to kids like me by helping to create an environment that condones and encourages child abuse. Granted, Marty does not seem like someone who would have done all that without being brainwashed in the first place, but just because The Emperor is running the show doesn’t preclude Darth Vader from wrong doing.

    In contrast to what Mosey said, I think that Marty needs to sit on the couch and think about what he did in the name of Scientology. I think he needs to bury his head in it. It’s nice that he found someone that loves him, but I can clearly tell that he does not love himself.

    Marty, if you read here, I would like to share some life experience of mine with you. Even if you feel that it is preposterous or presumptuous that I would dare do such a thing.

    After I was kicked out of the Sea Org, and my parents and fellow Scientologists made me feel like the scum of the earth; after they implied that suicide was an appropriate route for me to take, I sat in my room and thought about it. For months. I was in such a deep depression I didn’t care about myself at all. (The Scientologists on your blog are exactly the same as the ones in the Church, by the way. My interactions on there have shown me clearly that Independent Scientologists love perpetuating abuse on each other and those around them the same way that regular ones do. The only difference is they don’t assault each other.)

    Then one day, laying on my bed, it dawned on me. If I had no one left in the world that cared about me for whatever reason, then who is left to care about me? I am left to care about me. I realized that if no one else cared about me I needed to care about myself, because even if no one else thinks that my life is worth living, goddamnit I do.

    I think you need to do some cold, hard reflecting Marty. Especially this idea that Scientology can carry on without abuse. Scientology is inherently abusive. It’s hierarchy of levels and ethics codes demand abuse on a psychological and emotional level. The idea that “children are adults in little bodies” even justifies sexual abuse.

    Scientology is an escapist utopia of imagination and nothing more. You are wasting your life by practicing it and the people who pay you are wasting their money. So I implore you to stop this madness and turn full force against Scientology as a whole. The cult needs to simply cease existing in all forms.

    • SciWatcher

      Thoughtful and beautifully said, as always.

    • i-Betty

      I’ve got a lump in my throat. Derek, you’re a special, special person.

    • aquaclara

      THIS IS WHY.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Agree, Derek… and so eloquently put!

    • richelieu jr

      “…just because The Emperor is running the show doesn’t preclude Darth Vader from wrong doing.”
      Exactly, Derek! Thanks so much for once again saying what I mean so much more concisely and eloquently!

    • Poison Ivy

      So powerful, Derek. You speak with such understanding and compassion, despite all you have suffered. Marty would do well to read you, listen to you, and see if he can’t summon up a little real empathy (he seems to have married a woman who understands empathy, far better than he does.)

      Think you far you’ve come, Derek. Now, you have a whole community of people who care about you (and admire the hell out of you.)

      “I think you need to do some cold, hard reflecting Marty. Especially this idea that Scientology can carry on without abuse. Scientology is inherently abusive. It’s hierarchy of levels and ethics codes demand abuse on a psychological and emotional level. The idea that “children are adults in little bodies” even justifies sexual abuse. Then there is the R2-45 policy that I know for a fact you have read which justifies murder, in a very literal way.”

      Very good points. From how he presents himself in the doc, I get the sense that, despite what Mosey says, a huge part of Marty is still clinging to his identity as “Marty #2 Man in Scientology”; “Marty the Philosopher/Preist” etc. I think Marty wants to be a leader but isn’t a natural leader in the way he wishes he could be. Yes, he’s led the independent movement thus far. But he doesn’t really have a coherent vision for it, and I think there’s a reason for that. I think deep down, he doesn’t believe this crap either. Fanaticism doesn’t always come from true belief; often, it arises as a violent abreaction to real doubt; to the need to believe the bullshit that you perceive is holding your identity together.

      It’s stunning that Marty could have read all the philosophy and religion and history that he has since getting out and STILL cling to LRH as Oracle and Scientology as “tech.” IMHO, Marty is intelligent enough to pick up the cognitive dissonance there. You can see it behind his eyes and his arrogance. Fanaticism and denial go hand in hand here. And denial is easy when pulling back the curtain will destroy everything you believe in; everything that defines you.

      Because he has Mosey, perhaps Marty will learn that he doesn’t need LRH’s garbage to define himself. I am with you, Derek; I think doing the equivalent of a 12-step “9th step” (making amends to those one has harmed) would go a long way toward freeing Marty from the need to hold on to that old identity that goes along with the belief system. He may have a lot more to offer the world once he comes clean with himself.

      In the meantime, I’m with Tony in believing the way station of Independent Scientology has done a great deal from those decompressing from the scars of mind control immeasurable and has also dealt a serious blow to the church of COB. And for that, at least, we can be grateful.

      • Missionary Kid

        I think the reason that he clings to LRH’s garbage is two-fold. The most important is that his whole vocabulary has been “word cleared” according to LRH, instead of looking at definitions from the rest of the world.

        The second one is that doing “spiritual counseling” gives him an income.

        • Poison Ivy

          Perhaps MK. Shame he can’t find another mission in life, but it does make sense, a guy in his 50’s (?) who has only been trained as a) a “spiritual counselor” and b) a counter terrorism/dirty tricks enforcer may believe there is nothing else out there for him. And in our current economy, he may well be right.

          • Missionary Kid

            I’m going to get too upset about Marty, unless he tries to play enforcer again. He kinda provides a half-way house on the underground railroad. People who aren’t quite ready to totally blow can take a rest there.

            • stillgrace

              I’ve never heard anyone talk about this here before, but I might have missed it. Very early on in Marty’s blogging, when he first started to offer auditing services to persons leaving scientology, he had a written policy for payment that really caught my eye. I tried finding it again, but couldn’t, but he might have moved it or removed it.

              His original policy for payment was this: Pay me half of my fee, go home and sit with the results for a couple of months, and if it proved beneficial- send me whatever you think you should.

              Now, that impressed me. Since it was my first exposure to Marty, I now tend to give him some leeway as he finds his way, post-Co$ and post-DM. However, I still want the details of the IRS agreement and what was in the documents he destroyed concerning the Lisa McPherson case. And I would like to hear him say just once, “I wish I had just let Annie get on that plane!”

            • loulai

              Yeah, I was impressed with his fee policy as well. And he has discussed the Annie Broeker episode with regret. I wish I could cite for you the place where I read his remarks ( maybe the Tampa Bay Times) but he went into the whole episode in detail. I was left with no doubt of his remorse. And I notice on his blog he refers to a lot of his reading in philosophy, religion-particularly Buddhism- science etc. He seems to be mightily trying to open his own mind while encouraging other to look beyond Scientology.

              If I had escaped after decades in the Scientology gulag I suspect I would want only a quiet space to decompress and live the rest of my life.(And Miscavige might well have paid him a lot of money just to quietly enjoy his “retirement”.) A voluntary return to the war zone in full battle regalia would probably be out of the question. His willingness to rejoin the battle counts for a lot with me.

            • Spackle Motion

              Do you mean this paragraph:

              [quote]“Do I feel guilty? Well, not really. She made her decision,” he told me, saying that when he caught up with Tidman, she could have continued onto a small plane that was about to leave the Boston airport and he would not have been able to follow her on board. Instead, just the sight of him seemed to make her give up her escape attempt.[/quote]

              That came from one of Tony’s stories from 2012:

              http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/annie_broeker_ann_tidman_scientology.php

            • Kim O’Brien

              Thank you for posting his true reaction ..it was all over me me after this one

            • loulai

              No, I remember that but it seems he said more (maybe in another interview).

            • monkeyknickers

              That blew me away too. Wow.

            • FLUNK_101

              Does anyone know what Marty charges? I know he wants half up front, but half of what? Are his rates in the same ballpark as CO$?

          • FistOfXenu

            How did he not have a problem with being trained as a “spiritual counselor” AND a thug? “Hi, I’m here to help you. Unless you piss off my boss. Then I’m gonna pound the shit out of you and make you wish you were dead” How does that work for anybody?

            • Missionary Kid

              Either Marty is a sociopath, or he’s too proud to admit mistakes or too worried about the legal consequences.

              Whatever the reason, I think that his attempt to hold on to power has warped his ability to truly make the ultimate changes that will lead him totally away from the perverse theories of LRH.

            • lightblb62

              He didn’t have a problem with that because when one is “in”, and totally a believer, then the clearing of the planet and the good of the group takes precedence over anything else and the end justifies the means. There is no mental or emotional room for even remotely thinking that perhaps the methods are out of hand and criminal.

              When in,( and especially in the last 20 years under DM)…it’s SCN and SCN only. Period. In the older days it was because we all thought the tech worked, LRH was Source and we had the answers to a troubled world (yes brainwashed lolol)… now, under DM, it is of course totally fear based, PLUS the brainwashing)

              I am so stunned that the ones born into it or raised from an early age in it have had the awareness and their innate goodness shine through so that they have had the courage to leave. So…yeah Marty is is still stuck in a lot of the trap.. but at least he seems to be undoing a BIt of the damage he created. Hope so anyway.

            • FistOfXenu

              I hear you Lightblb62. I even try to agree as much as I can. But now Marty’s made it clear that he knew it was wrong when he was doing it and not just when it was done back to him. Where should we call “bullshit”? Is he lying when he hides behind being totally convinced and brainwashed or is he lying when he says he knew all along it was wrong?

              Something stinks here and 1 way or the other I think it comes from Marty. I’m glad if he’s really making his way out. But as long as he spends more time trying to look “right” than he spends really making things right the questions will never go away.

            • loulai

              I don’t know his actual rates but I have never heard or read of anyone complaining that he has scammed them out of money or coerced them into debt. I suspect such complaints would have surfaced by now if he were abusing people.

            • loulai

              Sorry-that reply about rates was directed at FLUNK 101.

        • DodoTheLaser

          And the third one is serving purpose high enough.

          Being an Ex is work in progress.

          Once in a while, scientology auditor helps his/her client
          to feel really good/happy about things. It can be very rewarding.

          This is why it’s also a trap ( re: Clear and OT BS).

          • Missionary Kid

            The problem is that with the gains that may come from auditing, I believe that they are still mainly auditor led, and Marty definitely has an agenda.

            What happens when an individual starts to counsel about abuses they were subjected to because of a policy that Marty had a hand in?

            Is Marty still declaring people clear and moving them up the ladder?

          • FLUNK_101

            Once you expose the bullshit of Clear and OT, there isn ‘t much left.

            What if Marty advertised:

            “Once in a while, auditing can make you feel really good/happy about things.”

            How much could he charge for that?

            • stillgrace

              Flunk, see my comment to Missionary Kid, below.

      • FLUNK_101

        The “9th step?”
        You must mean, “the 9th dynamic!”

        • FistOfXenu

          There is a list of steps here but Arnie Lerma didn’t make “amends” very clear in it. His list reads like this

          This page was cited from an article in the Guardian UK in 1997
          Now renamed TEN Steps out of Scientology
          Author: Arnie Lerma

          Date: 31 Aug 1997 17:01:27 -0700
          REVISED-1

          I was in the cult and on staff for 10 years… here are the stages I have seen… as one exits the ‘Hubbardian’ mind control program….

          1) There is something wrong here, if this is so great, then why is (______) going on?
          [ insert whatever atrocity you have recently witnessed ]
          2) The guys at the top must be crazy
          3) Miscavige and crew are evil demons from another dimension [ or something similar ]
          4) Hubbard went crazy at the end …..
          5) Hubbard went crazy in 1966
          6) Hubbard was mad from the start.
          7) This whole thing is a complete fraud
          8) my god, its a criminal organization… with criminal convictions all over the world… and it was only about money
          9) realization that THERE ARE NO OT’s THERE!
          10) realizing, after leaving Scientology, this makes one an ex-nazi and wanting to do something about it

          Somebody that knows more than me should update this. Maybe it needs 10 to be expanded to specify amends. I always think of Marty as being stuck at 3 even though he’s happy with 7 & 8. How can he get to amends while he believes Hubbard’s tech and policies are all true? He still shies away from seeing that he’s an “ex-nazi” as that list puts it.

          • stillgrace

            Wow, FOX, thanks for this … it lends perspective!

            • FistOfXenu

              No problem stillgrace. I risk being a boring old fart by posting this link and 1 or 2 other things over and over but I think it helps. I 1st saw this after a friend showed it to me. He left right after he read Atack’s book but he got stuck and didn’t know why. He stumbled on this page not long after 9/11 and showed me and said he finally understood what he’d been going through. That impressed me enough to look closer and it makes sense with what I’ve seen in some other exes I know. I’m pretty sure it’s not everybody but it makes good points i think.

      • Simple Thetan

        I think if you guys read his last book, you will not need to try and figure out Marty.

        • Kim O’Brien

          You know …some people here HAVE read his book …and still think that he is an asshole . Just thought i would throw that out there ~

        • FistOfXenu

          That’s like what a body router said to me once when I refused to be dragged into an org til he told me why Hubbard lied about his Navy career

    • monkeyknickers

      You have an old, wise soul, Derek. And I encourage to keep writing – are you doing something on the side? Fiction or poetry or something?

      You have a special gift with words, brother. The world needs to hear them. :)

    • http://www.rediscoverscientology.com/blogs/joe-howard.html Joe Howard

      From the documentary, you and Marty were doing pretty much the same thing after you left Scientology, lying in bed wondering WTF. You both woke up to the fact that life goes on. You say you were kicked out and Marty says he decided to leave and then left. That is about the only difference I see in your stories. But it is a big difference.

      • Kim O’Brien

        really ? THAT is the only difference you can find in their stories ? Face palm

      • dbloch7986

        Um…well on one hand I was “kicked out” of the Sea Org. I sort of kicked myself out of Scientology though. I posted online, anonymously, though I must admit not THAT anonymous. I sort of knew the church would eventually find me.

        Marty took off under cover of darkness using a motorcycle and all the money he had. I had nothing, at all, except a job.

        Not to mention that Marty build the machine that ceaselessly bullied me and all the kids that were in there with me.

    • Scientia

      Get over youself, dude. You have no idea what Marty practices or whether he believes the things you mention. A couple of people responded to you on his blog recommending you quit being a victim and read more, and now suddenly all Indies just lurrrve abusing others and are no better than the churchies they left behind. It’s this arrogant, holier-than-thou, black-and-white attitude that reminds me so much of the many Ronbots I met in the Sea Org.

      I’m not sure how or why you seem unable to grasp that some people find benefit from aspects of Scientology. Scrape away all the religious fluff and Hubbard’s “Bridge” is little more than abreactive therapy and past life regression (lower) with some visualisation processes and guided imagery (upper). The format the church sells it to the public is indeed fraudulent, but dismissing the possibility of it having any value whatsoever is naive, and will prevent you from ever gaining an indepth, meaningful understanding of the subject and those who apply it imho.

      • tetloj

        Um Scientia – don’t look now but you are posting on a blog that exists because a large number of people are unable to grasp that some people find benefit from aspects of Scientology. That’s because they have had access to a lot of information that leads to the logical conclusion that it is a long con, and that any benefits are placebo.

        • FLUNK_101

          I agree with you, but what you said is not the entire story. Yes, the “placebo” effect is real. Scientologists are famous for convincing themselves they’re getting something out of it when they’re not.

          Sometimes it’s hard to understand how Scientology fooled so many people, for so long, and for so much bread.

          I agree with DodoTheLaser ‘s comment:

          “Once in a while, scientology auditor helps his/her client
          to feel really good/happy about things.”

          Of course, this good/happy feeling is used to gain your trust, and co-opt your mind … but it does happen, and it’s more than a placebo.

          • tetloj

            Thanks for expanding Flunk…placebo effect doesn’t quite cover it I agree. In the rapid world of internet commentary a full explanation takes second place to brevity. My emphasis above was to call Scientia out for saying this to Derek specifically on a blog of many, many people saying similar kinds of things – an extention to a bit of a nasty pile-on-Derek at Marty’s blog the other day.

            I too agree with what you say, and I appreciate any clarification from those like you who have experienced first-hand what I can only imagine.

            And now I am sacrificing brevity for a full explanation.

        • Shane013a

          There are many, let me stress that MANY, websites dedicated to the helping of people who have in one way or another been taken for a ride by the COS. This group is fun to read in comparison to some of the more serious places I’ve been. Having ‘lost’ a dear person in my life to this con I have always been an out spoken opponent and even active protester of the continued existence of these poor saps made to become criminals merely to make some VERY rich and powerful.

      • FistOfXenu

        sniff sniff
        Did somebody let a horse in here? I smell horse.

      • Kim O’Brien

        wow….i am really surprised by that post . You have posted here for a while and I have found your thoughts to be very interesting . I was never “in” and some of your posts have helped me to understand the inicial appeal that scientology had for some. Now …with this post …i really think that you should take a long , hard look at the type of person that you have become .I do not know if you have kids ( i shudder to think that might be the case ) It really IS black and white when it comes to abusing children …you just don’t fucking do it and if you do ..there is something wrong with you . If you do not feel sympathy for those same children ..and are boasting about that fact in a post here …then congrats … you make our point for us . Scientologists are so evil ..they ( like you …and Marty ) will just say …” get over yourself ” . We can rail and scream about how fucked up scientology is until we are blue in the face …but voila ..you are a perfect case example of why scientology sucks the soul and the compassion right out of you . You are …the perfect case in point .

        • Scientia

          Kim, of course I sympathise with Derek. I’m not that much of a cunt. I can’t even begin to imagine what he went through. I hope I didn’t imply otherwise as all I was trying to say was that some of his views seem as extreme as many of those he criticises, and that if he looked further he might learn something. That’s all.

          • FistOfXenu

            Don’t try to imagine it Scientia. Just read. He’s written about some of it already and it’s enough to make you sick. He’s not just shooting his mouth off about hearsay. He’s lived through the on-policy abuse. I think he gets a pass for having a definite point of view about abuse and abusers in the gang of thugs and criminals known as $cientology.

            As for extreme, well, extreme causes can produce extreme effects. And anyways from what I seen by reading Derek and reading Marty the warrior, Derek is doing a lot more learning.

          • Kim O’Brien

            Maybe you SHOULD begin to imagine what he went through. That is what people with empathy do . I just don’t get you . Being against scientology is NOT the same as being a scientologists against ..you know ..everyone and everything else on the planet ( so much so ..they think the planet needs to be “cleared” ) And when you say something so condescending like ” if he looked further he might learn something” is nothing more than just plain insulting and ridiculous . Everyone here has ” looked further” and decided that scientology is a fucking scam .. and you imply that the end result of looking ..is realizing that LRH was not all bad and that scientology helps people . That is a round and round conversation. That kid has been through the fucking ringer .. you should be embarrassed

            • Scientia

              Just because I can empathise with someone doesn’t mean I cannot disagree with them.

            • Kim O’Brien

              Forget is Scientia …what you are doing is totally working and helping people understand that scientologists are just super duper nice and stuff …i mean your post just oozed sympathy for Derek ..the first line of ” get over yourself dude ” is really something Jesus would say . Please proceed governor .

      • monkeyknickers

        Why shouldn’t he “act” like a victim, Scientia? He IS a victim.

        You’re dealing with your escape in your way, and Derek in his.

        Little brother has the right to do it his way, and a right to call bullshit where he sees it. It’s a bonus that he writes with his heart, tells his truth, and is amazingly polite in the process.

        I’m not trying to bust your balls here, but it’s like saying: A lot of boys benefited from a sense of community and belonging when they joined the Hitler Youth. C’mon.

        It goes without saying that people have benefited from the “tech”. But it doesn’t mean that some schoolgirl in Germany circa 1938 shouldn’t stand up and say . . . . um, this little club you guys got is cool for you and everything, and I appreciate that a lot of you have found some meaning in it, but I totally think that Hitler is a dick and maybe you should consider that. Like: why not start a soccer club instead? A sewing circle? A birdwatching group?

        Because the PREMISE is rotted and foul. Fruit of the poisonous tree.

        • Shane013a

          Thank you for this, anyone who can’t see it isn’t looking with the heart.

          • monkeyknickers

            You’re a love. Even if your avatar is a mug shot.

            :)))

            • Shane013a

              Thanks, it ain’t me..it’s Bill Gates.

            • monkeyknickers

              Seriously?! Wow. Huh. I sense a Google search in imminent. Not to mention a full out APB on my damn glasses. GOD I wish I could stop misplacing shit.

      • dbloch7986

        “It’s this arrogant, holier-than-thou, black-and-white attitude that reminds me so much of the many Ronbots I met in the Sea Org.”

        In psychology they call this reflection.

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          and to him, the word is projection.

      • dbloch7986

        I wasn’t really sure how to respond to your statement because it is demonstrably wrong.

        Why do you struggle so hard to find value in something? A thing either has value, or it does not. Speaking objectively and not of your opinion, Scientology has no value to this society at all. It offers nothing. It does not improve any conditions. It does not provide insight into the human condition and it sets back the clock on our understanding of human psychology by hundreds of years.

        If you feel like Scientology has value to you, that is your prerogative. As they say, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. In this case tens of thousands of people’s trash is your treasure.

        I can guarantee you that I have better insight into and understanding of Scientology than you do.

        You accuse me of arrogance, while at the same time spewing your own arrogance at the very beginning of your statement, “Get over yourself, dude.”

        Scientology is inherently abusive. Those at the top with a “higher case level” will always condescend those at the bottom with a “lower case level”.

        I am a victim, I am not playing one. You are also a victim but you are playing a bully. That’s the difference between you and me. I understand and acknowledge that I am a victim. You pretend not to be by bullying others. It’s called “overcompensation”.

        “In psychology, compensation is a strategy whereby one covers up, consciously or unconsciously, weaknesses, frustrations, desires, or feelings of inadequacy or incompetence in one life area through the gratification or (drive towards) excellence in another area. Compensation can cover up either real or imagined deficiencies and personal or physical inferiority. Positive compensations may help one to overcome one’s difficulties. On the other hand, negative compensations do not, which results in a reinforced feeling of inferiority. There are two kinds of negative compensation:

        Overcompensation, characterized by a superiority goal, leads to striving for power, dominance, self-esteem, and self-devaluation.

        Undercompensation, which includes a demand for help, leads to a lack of courage and a fear for life.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensation_(psychology)

        • Scientia

          Your armchair diagnosis of me is fabulous, and much appreciated. Thanks!

          Oh and please tell me how I have bullied you. I’m dying to know.

          • aquaclara

            I’ll answer that one, Scientia. Customarily, politeness and respect are conveyed through words and tone – and you used language meant to inflame.

            I’ll understand if this was in error. However, if this was not, consider taking your bullying elsewhere.

          • dbloch7986

            “Oh and please tell me how I have bullied you. I’m dying to know.”

            res ipsa loquitur

            • Scientia

              Dum excusare credis, accusas

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      ‘The cult needs to simply cease existing in all forms.’

      From your lips to God’s ears. Amen.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Great job… well done to the film makers! I felt it covered the issues from the Independent pov in an easy to listen to, and understand way.
    A little moment that stood out for me. Marty stating he doesn’t listen/read about those who call for him to be more apologetic for his actions whilst in the CO$. I guess he’s still conditioned to not ‘read entheta’? However, you can see that he does feel badly about his past actions, but I suppose we’ll have to wait a bit longer before he gets to a point where he feels confident enough to actually apologise to those individuals he affected and realise that it will help garner (not hinder as he must assume) respect FOR him from others (me) and that it’ll ultimately help HIM work through his feelings of culpability and guilt.
    Mosey did great… I feel for her, I very much like her, and hope she has found, or does find soon, a life she’s comfortable with despite having seemingly taken on a man whose baggage has impacted her life unusually (negatively?) in more ways than one.
    Obviously there is much more to tell regarding Scientology, the subject and the corporate organisation, so I hope to see many more docos out from these guys and others in a raging flood of exposes very soon!
    Mark Bunker… I’m also talking to you… I want to see KR asap! ;)

  • Conditioner

    I guess Rathbun is the best lightning rod the popular press can find. His position as a victim of the CofS is appealing to many. His crimes against humanity are not. Bigger bad guys than Marty have turned themselves in and confessed all. Come on Marty, step up, say it like it was and bring the bloody house down! You’ll be lionized. Maybe even canonized.

    After a thorough read of A Piece of Blue Sky, one is compelled to ask ‘how could anyone be serious over this Mutt and Jeff Show’?.

    There’s so much life and so many wonderful, good, compassionate people out there. From that vantage point it’s like watching two dung beetles battle it out.

    This documentary, to me, underscores the above.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Ewwwww. I just Had to look. Good Metaphor! Some people like those.
      Also, I need to get out more. Seriously.

      http://youtu.be/vrOFNoicijQ

    • Zana

      The filmmakers had to focus the story-line for viewers who knew nothing. I think they did a good job. They only had 47 minutes to do it in. Marty was the natural person to put out front… even though we all know there are more. That gave the filmmakers a place to add the SquirrelBusters. Truly insane people. Especially the old Hag yelling in the rain. It was great drama for the masses. Made Co$ look psychotic. Then, at the end, showed them up to be complete liars with their statements. Really well done, filmmakers. ! I hope it gets nominated for an Academy Award.

      • Poison Ivy

        Agreed. It focused on one aspect of Scientology and held its focus throughout. It was very accessible for a general audience. We forget that not everyone knows all the minutia that folks here talk about every day.
        It’s not feature length and to be eligible for an Oscar, it would have to have been released for a week in a Los Angeles area movie theater. I don’t know what the requirements are for the BAFTA’s or the Brit version of Emmy’s though.
        I hope they get to do the festival circuit with it as well.

      • Conditioner

        Well, I gotta give you that. I had my own ideas as to who would be exellent on-camera subjects. But the use of Rathbun definitely gave the show a linear story line.

  • LemonLemon

    “One of my problems with scientology is that it becomes so…religious. You no longer have a life”. Hmmmm, Marty, I think maybe you need to word clear the word “religious” because there is NOTHING religious about scientology.

    • media_lush

      ‘litigious’ would have been the perfect word replacement

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    I love the narrator’s voice.

    The taunting attitude of the “Squirrel Busters” — is that more tone scale junk?

  • LemonLemon

    “We were just kids back then…but we grew up…and Miscavige never did”. LOL a short joke hidden in an innocent comment.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      It was hidden?

      • LemonLemon

        Well, I don’t think he was actually talking about his height. I think he meant they matured and grew out of the infantile tactics. Just a funny turn of phrase that happened to coincide with what could be a short joke :-)

    • stillgrace

      Did anybody else notice how the podium dwarfed DM during the LRH death announcement? Scaled down podiums came along later.

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        After DM drops his meat body, do you think they will have booster chairs and apple boxes in every Idle Morgue waiting for his return?

        • i-Betty

          Heehee :D

        • Exterrier

          Oh mannn. Definite deserved giggle there.

        • http://twitter.com/Scientology_411 Scientology_411

          Ha, great point! Don’t forget the bottle of scotch.

        • SP ‘Onage

          They’ll have to install low toilets too, so he doesn’t have to get a running start to get up on them.

        • Poison Ivy

          Funniest comment of the night, PTBA2!

      • Xenu, Lord of Kobol

        Height was brought home with the Tom Cruise interaction. It’s like seeing Joan Rivers stand next to Muhammed Ali’s daughter,

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1428470021 Jonathan Hendry

          That’s how important Cruise is to DM. He’s willing to look short in comparison.

          DM’s so short… when nobody’s watching, does his voice rise an octave or two?

          • Poison Ivy

            I hate his thuggy South Philly accent. I know a couple REAL thugs from South Philly who sound less thuggy than him.

            • richelieu jr

              And yet ironically, there’s not a bigger (little) thug in the world.

            • aquaclara

              There is an angry cheesesteak (“wit”) elf just waiting to pounce on you for that scurrilous remark. Davey Dearest was raised in South Jersey, Willingboro, to be precise. Let’s just forgive his mother for that birthday part across the bridge, ok?

            • Poison Ivy

              Ha ha!
              (He still sounds like an uneducated thug though.)

            • aquaclara

              He is that.

          • FistOfXenu

            DM’s so short he can’t have fallen arches. They have no place to go.
            He’s so short he’s never seen the bottom 1/2 of a movie.
            He’s so short he thinks short bread is just bread.

            • stillgrace

              He’s so short, he poses for trophies!

            • Missionary Kid

              That too, went into my collection.

              Here’s what I’ve got so far on DM:

              DAVID MISCAVAGE
              Littlest Caligula
              Dinky Mindfuck
              Miss Cabbage
              Miscabbage
              Tiny Terror
              Dwarfenfuehrer
              Der Dwarfenfuehrer
              Tiny Fists
              Tiny Crackpot
              Diminutive Mouse
              Pseudo-Pope of the Unholy Alleged Church of Scientolonuts
              THE Merchant of Chaos
              Malignant Dwarf
              Osama Bin Davey
              Davey Miss Carnage
              Toxic Dwarf
              Mouse-caviage, rodent king of the clams.
              King of Footbullets
              Diabolical Davey
              maniacal midget
              Dinky McSavage
              His Imperial Teensyness
              Mouse-caviege
              His hole-iness
              Igor to “Dr” L. Ron Crankenstein.
              Darth Midget
              His Imperial Teensyness

              ABOUT DM:
              DM’s so short he can’t have fallen arches. They have no place to go.
              He’s so short he’s never seen the bottom 1/2 of a movie.
              He’s so short he thinks short bread is just bread.
              He’s so short, he poses for trophies!
              DM’s dialect is called “COBorrhea”

            • aquaclara

              Your collection is quite excellent, MK. It makes me smile.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks. My purpose is served, if someone smiles. It’s unscientific and has my quirky choices.

            • Missionary Kid

              Thank you, FOX.
              Went into collection.

      • http://twitter.com/Scientology_411 Scientology_411

        I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a big part of why this video disappeared from Scientology history. That and the fact that Pat Broeker is in it.

      • Zana

        Interesting catch.

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        On the RPF, out at Happy Valley, we made many of he podiums that DM used, in the late 1990s.

        They were particularly short, I recall.

        • aquaclara

          This must bug Davey that you know this.
          Thanks for posting! :)

    • Zana

      It’s amazing to see him next to Tom Cruise. And Tom Cruise is SHORT. And Crazy Davey is at least 2 inches shorter than Tom. He’s diminutive. Miniature.

      It was interesting to see the very first stage behind him when he was 25 telling that LRH had left his body. Just that simple looking, wooden “Bridge” behind him. Look what they are now. Embarrassing. Compensating for being so teeny.

      • MissCandle

        The 2 inches doesn’t include his miniature pompadour. … I’m talking about his height.

  • richelieu jr

    Hey Tony– Looking good,

    ¡barba atractiva!

  • SP ‘Onage

    This was nicely done. Tony did good! I liked the black back ground. This made me feel sad for Mosey. :(

  • dbloch7986

    Can I have a TV show now. I want to cry in front of a national/international audience too. Also I’d love to hear what the church has to say about me.

    If I ever do an interview, I demand that the church’s statement be read at the beginning so I can respond to it, point by point!

  • PreferToBeAnon2

    One good thing: after watching these immature adults fight about club house rules, I can’t imagine anyone being interested in joining.

    • Zana

      Good point. Hope this put’s a wood spike through the heart of Co$.

  • SandiCorrena

    Why did Marty say it was “A Roast Beef Productions Presentation”? Am I uninformed and that’s really the name of the company that produced it; is it after the little piggies and the “roast beef” is before the piggy that had none and the one that went wee wee wee all the way home; have I been reading to much and there is no code or haven’t I read enough therefore I don’t know the code?

  • Conditioner

    Tony, I just got a picture of you in some earlier incarnation, hunched over a scratched and battered old Underwood down in the depths of a Warsaw ghetto cellar, banging out your latest electrifying message, during the Nazi occupation. Then churning it out on some old Gestetner mimeo machine, day after day, giving your readers a glimmer of hope where there was none.

    My continued admiration of your hard and skillful work. No publisher or editor could put as much demand on you as you probably put on yourself.

    And…my gratitude and thanks to the many really smart, insightful posters who have helped me depressurize over the years.

    • Zana

      Thank you, Tony! You have saved me (and I’m sure many others) my retirement $ as well as a lot of good years to go party and enjoy life. What’s the use if we don’t have a good time down here?

      You’ve done a magnificent job for the past 17 years… and more to go. You are taking down the giant!

  • Rachel Heidi

    Wow. Tony’s… hot! Sorry, but that was my second reaction. My first was, “Marty, Marty, Marty, it’s all gotta be about Marty!” ;)

  • Skwerl King

    I vow to take a drink every time they say “squirrel”. Will I be able to walk after 48 minutes

    • Skwerl King

      Tony. My man! Rocking the interview!

  • Concerns_of_a_Father

    Having seen most of this unravel in the Underground Bunker and the Village Voice prior to that, I still enjoyed it. The best part was Mosey: “We met on Match.com”

    If I was their ad man, I’d being use that statement somehow in my next promotion for the dating site.

    • richelieu jr

      Think hit men are sexy?

      Ever fantasized about deposed Panamanian Strongman Manuel Noriega?

      Find it exciting to meet people who use assumed names?

      Looking for a guy with long complicated past and tons of emotional and legal baggage?

      Wanna know just how many skeletons can fit into a closet?

      How many ‘Squirrel Busters’ can pour out of a clown-car?

      MATCH.COM is the place for you!

      • Concerns_of_a_Father

        Obviously you’re not a fan of Marty or Mosey….which means you assuredly have never met them, at least not Mosey. Say what you will, but at least their not hiding behind some overused and retarded alien picture.

        And yes, I would like to know how many skeletons fit in a closet. It sounds like you might know from first hand knowledge.

        • richelieu jr

          Erm, that’s probably not an overused alien picture, a sit’s not even an alien.
          And you might choose an avatar. Doesn’t take long and as far as i know, it’ s not considered ‘hiding’.
          Welcome to the interwebs, Einstein.

          Mosie is clearly a nice person.

          • Concerns_of_a_Father

            Apparently you know much. In fact, I bet you believe you’re a regular genius, just like LRH. You are very opinionated and crass…are you trying to start your own cult by getting more followers?

            Do you think you are above people by asserting your point of view, yet you do not allow the views of others to enter in when they disagree with your own. What makes you so right and Marty so wrong?

            Perhaps you’re envious of him. Maybe when you grow up, you want to be just like him, and so instead of attacking the real enemy, you attack the man you wish to emulate.

    • richelieu jr

      Think hit men are sexy?

      Ever fantasized about deposed Panamanian Strongman Manuel Noriega?

      Find it exciting to meet people who use assumed names?

      Looking for a guy with long complicated past and tons of emotional and legal baggage?

      Wanna know just how many skeletons can fit into a closet?

      How many ‘Squirrel Busters’ can pour out of a clown-car?

      MATCH.COM is the place for you!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    I’d be very interested in hearing what the UK viewers came away with by tomorrow and if it changed anything in their own minds.

  • Mary_McConnell

    I enjoyed this very much! Tony, you did an excellent job explaining things.. a real presence there and much appreciated.

    Kudos to the producers, staff and Channel 4 UK as well as to those interviewed or who contributed in some way to make this happen.

    Of course, the Squirrel Busters come across as insane as they really are! What a joy it was to know that many people got to see this in the UK!!

    What I also came away with after watching it:

    It was very interesting that this was filmed last year and yet so much has evolved since. There are definitely more Independent scientologists out of the church and doing their own thing now. Marty’s world has evolved in a different direction, one I see as a good sign. That he told the producers that, since the filming of the show, he no longer calls himself a scientologist is important and explains why his blog is no longer the connection it once was and he is not the same person he was a year ago. I give Mosey much credit for loving him and perhaps even guiding him to be willing to look at other points of view because we know he’s a hardheaded, stubborn and self-righteous man at times, unwilling to use Hubbard’s ARC tech which he covets so much elsewhere toward those he refuses to admit he’s harmed in the past.

    But I have faith that in time he will awaken to this discrepancy and become humbled and do what is right by these people because he’s got a wonderful caring wife who has suffered what were intended to be his natural consequences of his actions past and present. She has dealt with them with the humility, courage and openness he seems to struggle with.

    What I like about Mosey is that she seems willing to risk being wrong but she takes the chances which she feels are right, no matter the consequences. She bears his consequences well. Love will do that.

    Marty, on the other hand, assumes he’s right, even when he’s sometimes wrong, and he does this believing there will be no natural consequences to his choices because he believes he’s right no matter what.therefore others must be wrong. So when the natural consequences come from being wrong about being right on a particular thing, only then does he retreat, rethink and admit being wrong. But one cannot say ‘I pulled it in’ ( karma) and think that clears the slate for all the other things of the past that have not been address with communication, compassion, humility and caring… something I don’t think Marty even knew existed outside of the cult until he met Mosey. She tips the scale greatly in these important qualities. So, with his evolution out of Scientology, the way it’s been going, I think he’ll eventually come around and see that he has some rethinking to do – and some actions to take that are he’s been avoiding, if he is ever to be as widely regarded and respected as she is. After all, I think that this is what all that self righteousness has been about.I see a slow but even change for the better in him on this and I think that Mosey has had the biggest impact.

    There is an old saying which I think fits his situation… “Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice”.~ .Proverbs 13:10

    Lastly, this documentary will prove to be very damaging to the image and coffers of the Church of Scientology in the UK. Rightfully so. :)

  • Espiando

    I’ve got it downloaded in hi-res, and I’ll probably end up watching it tomorrow. Either that, or it’ll make for some quality in-flight time-wasting on Wednesday evening (back out to LaLa one more time).

    I still have a mad-on for Channel 4 for what they did to Time Team, but they do commission a lot of classy material. I expect it to be great.

  • Espiando

    I’ve got it downloaded in hi-res, and I’ll probably end up watching it tomorrow. Either that, or it’ll make for some quality in-flight time-wasting on Wednesday evening (back out to LaLa one more time).

    I still have a mad-on for Channel 4 for what they did to Time Team, but they do commission a lot of classy material. I expect it to be great.

  • Still_On_Your_Side

    The film makers set it up so well that the statements from the church at the end only served to put the church in an even worse light, and it was the church’s own words that did it. In fact, the church’s statements would make a great Saturday Night Live skit.

    “The church was not behind squirrel busters. They are a completely separate organization. Well, somewhat separate. Well, some of them are members of the church. Well, oh shoot, YES, WE RAN THAT OPERATION.”

    “The church has never paid private investigators to spy on Marty Rathbun. Well, there were investigators but they were part of a pre-litigation plan. Well, the investigators were paid by the church, but never looked at Marty Rathbun. Well, OH SHOOT, YES WE HIRED PIs.”

    “There is no global independent movement. The Isreali mission has only a few people. The crowds you see inside the mission are there because it was raining outside and they came in to get dry. Besides, a few of them have rejoined the church. Well, it was one person. Well, the church uses the same window washer, and he cleans the mission’s windows and the church’s windows, so he did come inside the church. SO THERE!”

    And so on, and so on.

    • Poison Ivy

      “The film makers set it up so well that the statements from the church at the end only served to put the church in an even worse light, and it was the church’s own words that did it. In fact, the church’s statements would make a great Saturday Night Live skit.”
      Yeah, SOYS; that was a nice moment of levity in a rather dark documentary. Especially the Squirrel Busters statement.
      I think a better all-purpose disclaimer would save the church time (not to mention save time for the poor sod who has to type in the graphics at the end of such documentaries):
      “The Church of Scientology reserves the right to lie about anything and everything critical anyone ever says about them. The Church of Scientology is always right and everybody else is always wrong. Full stop.”

  • Davka

    I liked this doc very much. I read the comments and without question, Marty is a lightening rod for a number of people and a number of things. For those that want apologies and contrition, I wonder what would be enough? For one man in a cult for nearly 30 years, trying to make his world view and his life “ok” what could he possibly do that would be of sufficient amends for all injustices, perceived and real. In all honestly, even if he laid prostrate on the ground and confessed all, for some, that would still not be enough. This not to excuse, or really opine on the rightness or wrongness of what he may have done, merely to point out that he may never meet someone elses’s need for justice no matter what he does.

    • EnthralledObserver

      His blog seems to be void of a specific apologetic post… an open letter, of sorts. That could be a start.
      And not to seem too harsh… but it will take what it will take… he just needs to start.

      • Poison Ivy

        Well said EO.

    • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

      The fact that perfection is unachievable is no excuse for not even trying.

    • SandiCorrena

      IMO I think it’s because he doesn’t seem sorry or remorseful; like hardly ever – he mostly seems proud that he’s such a big deal to COB – couple that with how wonderful he still finds all the LRH fiction/tech. It’s like he thinks they’re (the church) all doing it wrong because Scientology is really the “ANSWER” to all the world’s problems. Perhaps he is worried that his disclosures that would invariably have to accompany his sorrow or remorse would not land well here in the world and could have consequences; maybe he just can’t accept that he gave 30 years of his life to complete rubbish; or maybe he just isn’t sorry….
      IDK it’s the one thing that prevents me from embracing him the way I have other exes (hugs Exes!) or reading his books….he seems to have escaped due to mismanagement and not because of the poisoned koolaid. I wish he could get off the poisoned koolaid though.

      • Poison Ivy

        Good questions all.

      • richelieu jr

        Even the mismanagement was OK with Marty until he was sent to The Hole himself to join all the others he’d sent there.

        • FistOfXenu

          He must’ve felt like a dirty cop sent to Leavenworth.

          • richelieu jr

            Exactly, FoX, exactly!

      • FistOfXenu

        “he mostly seems proud that he’s such a big deal to COB” – the way Marty described what happened he sounded like a jilted lover. There he was, DM’s go to guy, and then along came TC and 1st DM tells Marty to pull TC in tight, then DM tosses Marty over for his new best friend. That had to hurt.

    • richelieu jr

      He could man up and tell the truth: No ‘I was a warrior’ chest-thumping, but an orderly listing of what crimes he committed, under who’s orders and when. Then he can say he is sorry, do his time and he’ll be right as rain in my book.

      Stopping spreading the LRH nonsense would work wonders as well.

  • richelieu jr

    Nice piece, careful and well done.. Still without wishing to confirm Godwin’s law one wonder what would have happened had, say Himmler, bailed on the Nazis and started independent ‘non-Anti-Semitic fscism’…

    Would his anti-semitic and terror-inducing acts still count or would they just allow him to saw “Aw, I’ve made up for that and I’m different now…”?

    I have yet to hear this question asked by a journalist “Marty, how many marriages/families did you break up? If Jenna Miscavige had killed herself after having been grilled for 81 hours by you (as she tried to do), would that have been David Miscavige’s fault or yours (lord knows it wouldn’t have been LRH’s)

    OR: “Marty, when you’ve apologized (because why would he lie, right, it’s not like there are hours of footage of him lying over the last 3 decades), how many people accept? And when they don’t is it still OK just because you’ve said you’re sorry?”

    “Marty, what percentage of your job was breaking the law? How many things will you suddenly ‘remember’ when the statute of limitations wears off”

    • Proud to be an SP

      And Marty, what was in the Lisa McPherson docs you destroyed and how did you sabotage the justice system on that one?

      • aquaclara

        I am pressing the hold button down on extra up arrows for this one. Remorse, to me, will be found in the truth. I want to know how many politicians, judges, law enforcement, medical and other officials Marty “influenced” to help cover up what happened to Lisa. Also, let’s see the list of those reporters, lawyers, doctors, medical examiners, judges, officers and regular people who were harassed and fair gamed to cover up this crime. Then I want the rest of the story – where are Lisa’s folders, where did the people go who were around when this happened, and who was bought off in the process.

        Then I want the same for Kyle.

        Then I want the same for every other crime the cult has committed.

        And then we’ll get to the rest of my list. Maybe once all this is clear and out in the open, we can begin to negotiate on that forgiveness thing. But there’s some work to be done first.

  • Mother Teegeeack

    Pleased that the editors included some footage of Squirrelbuster Joanne Wheaton’s incoherent ramblings. Wheaton, who was given the moniker “Nurse Ratched” in Martyland and referred to below as that “crazy old hag” by our own Zana, is the widow of Larry Wheaton. Larry Wheaton occupied the captain’s chair in one of the most memorable and awful U.S. airline disasters – Air Florida Flight 90, which crashed in to an icy Potomac River shortly after takeoff from Washington’s National Airport on 13 January 1982.

    The NTSB concluded that the probable cause of the crash was pilot error, so as captain Wheaton was largely responsible for the horrible deaths (many drowning in the frozen Potomac) of 78 souls, including himself.

    You can probably guess where my narrative is headed. Yes, Scientology quickly “crush regged” Joanne Wheaton and relieved her of every dime of Larry Wheaton’s Airline Pilots’ Association-based life insurance.

    Scientology – It’s always worse than you imagined.

    • Poison Ivy

      Joanne Wheaton – wow. I was wondering who that unbalanced maniac was. Made Gwen from Portland seem absolutely sane.

      I had no idea about Joanne’s background – did she join Scientology AFTER her husband’s death? Or was he a Clam himself?

      • PreferToBeAnon2
        • Poison Ivy

          Thanks sweetie!

        • Proud to be an SP

          Yes I read that earlier. She got in trouble for donating some workers comp money that wasn’t hers to the cult, and had to get $145,000 back from the cult.

      • http://twitter.com/Scientology_411 Scientology_411

        They should make one of those “Meet a Scientologist” videos featuring her. She’d totally make me want to go into an org to learn how to cackle and cast spells (non-working of course since this is Scientology we’re talking about).

        She kind of reminds me of something out of Monty Python with that shrieking voice. Her husband probably took that plane down on purpose so he wouldn’t have to go home to that ever again.

    • Zana

      OMG. The more I learn, the worse it gets. Whew.

    • Proud to be an SP

      How could it have been pilot error? He was a scientologist – I thought they controlled MEST.

      • FistOfXenu

        “He pulled it in” ?

    • Mother Teegeeack

      If my husband’s incompetence led to the horrible deaths of
      77 innocent people, I’d be inclined to devote a sizable share of his life
      insurance and/or worker’s comp settlement to the families of the victims or
      perhaps to Lenny Skutnik, the hero who dived into the frigid Potomac and saved
      Priscilla Tirado, one of the victims of Homo Novus Wheaton’s ineptitude.

      Such a notion never crossed the small mind of Joanne and
      would have been instantly dismissed by her regges and handlers in the Cult.
      Instead, she earmarked the whole shootin’ match to Scientology and its
      interests, including a cool 42 grand to push the Ginger-haired Gastropod’s
      Dianutty and other tripe onto library shelves.

      Only the action of a probate judge prevented Scientology in
      the end from capturing every dollar, but they still walked over and spit on 78
      frozen corpses and made away with north of a hundred grand from this tragedy.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Skutnik

    • Mother Teegeeack

    • John P.

      Given that I know the odd thing or two about jets (private and otherwise), I read your post with interest. That is a very nice catch to connect the person on the show with her past.

      I went back and looked at the Wikipedia article on the Air Florida 90 crash, which is quite extensive. I don’t know if Larry Wheaton was a Scientologist at the time of the crash, but the results from the accident investigation are unbelievable.

      The fact that Wheaton failed a couple of check rides for not following basic checklists is just stunning. It doesn’t matter if you have landed the exact same plane 48 times in the prior three days; you always use the checklist, and you always act like you have never done the checklist before, so that you don’t get complacent. The fact that he decided not to use the approach and landing checklist on a flight that was apparently being observed by a check pilot speaks to an unbelievable lack of judgment — almost everyone who was the biggest cowboy in the skies the rest of the time would straighten up and fly “by the book” when a guy with a clipboard is sitting there.

      The Global Capitalism HQ flight department is ruthless about following proper procedures in icing conditions (and other bad weather, but particularly in trying to get out of Teterboro trying to beat a winter storm). We get an e-mail from Flight Ops reminding us that the pilot’s decision to go/no-go in icing and other bad weather is final and that we are not to exert pressure on the flight crew to try to override the decision. It is drilled into us that anyone, including a managing general partner, will be fired if we try to pressure the flight crew to go in bad weather. And fortunately, as stupid and entitled as some of the upper management types can be, I have never seen one of the GP’s try to overrule a flight crew.

      So with that in mind, the litany of mistakes from the Air Florida 90 crash report just turns my stomach. Truly horrifying. I almost had a moment’s sympathy for Joanne Wheaton’s state of mental decay, but I realize that she didn’t get to that point solely from losing her husband and from a single instance of Scientology bankrupting her. She got to that point by drinking the Kool-Aid willingly for many years and never questioning the “prison of belief” (to steal a phrase from somewhere) she built around herself.

      • stillgrace

        Your advice about avoiding complacency in dangerous occupations is spot-on and very timely for the Bay Area. A construction worker for the new 49’er stadium was just killed in an elevator shaft accident. I spoke with a friend of mine Sunday who was there, and he told me the worker failed to execute the three-step checklist that is supposed to be performed any time you enter an elevator shaft during construction work. I learned the man that lost his life was a well-liked, “salt-of-the-earth” family man who had been accident-free for just decades, and normally very safety-conscious. “Just this once, and I’ll only be in there for a second!”
        Complacency! Phffft! Such a sad story.

      • MissCandle

        For what it’s worth, the day of that plane crash was supposed to be my first day of work in D.C. I had just moved there from a small midwestern town starting my first career job a block away from the White House. Sad, Sad, Sad.

    • Gerard Plourde

      The only thing I could think as I saw that clip was “Who is that insane woman?” I have seen clips of the “what are your crimes” confrontation variety in which the Scientologists are annoying, childish bullies employing schoolyard tactics that most eschew upon hitting puberty. This is my first experience of seeing a Scientologist who looks like she could conceivably be committable.

  • media_lush

    Now that we have London media firmly in our sites I think it would be a perfect time for UK journalists to call bogus scientology’s bluff on their ridiculous PR campaigns…. I know a few of them read this blog and it would make for a great story if you can prove it’s total bullshit.

    Normally these storys are set in far flung Ghana, Bulgaria etc but the idiots have dared to use London for their PR bullshit.

    I’ve left a comment on the first one that sums it up:

    “No names – no location – no response to email requests for the same.

    TOTAL LIES!”

    [links: http://www.watchlistnews.com/2013/06/17/church-of-scientology-of-london-combats-drug-abuse/#comment-3100

    http://www.prweb.com/releases/prwebChurchofScientology/TruthAboutDrugs/prweb10843302.htm ]

  • DamOTclese2

    Bring back the Squirrel Busters! Want to see just how violently insane Scientology criminals are? Join the Squirrel Busters and take it on the road! Woo hoo!

    It’s a shame that Rathbun and Rinder continue to be believed. In my opinion, nothing that comes out of those two shit bags mouths should be believed. I’m all for forgiveness and such, but these two men have proven themselves to be liars, to be trained criminals, and if you were stupid enough to asked either of them what the time of day is you would have to get a second opinion from someone trustworthy.

    • Poison Ivy

      Tragically, the Squirrel Busters would have their own Reality Series if they weren’t Scientologists.

      • Bella Legosi

        Who would air that? FOX or TruTV?

        • DodoTheLaser

          LOL. Funny Or Die.

      • richelieu jr

        Sorry, but I would watch the hell out of Squirrel Busters show.. How about a Cartoon? The first Reality-TV cartoon!

        • Robert Eckert

          Moose-and-Squirrel Busters?

          • richelieu jr

            I was trying to work a Rocky angle in to no avail…

            Thought of Boris and Natasha… Still no good…
            ————–

            Rocky: Well, they don’t call him Wrongway Redhead for nothing!

            Bullwinkle: You mean they gotta pay?

            Rocky: And how!

    • Bella Legosi

      I talked to one of them Busters here in Portland. Seeing him in this is just creepy. He didn’t say a word in any of the shots he was in, but when he talked to me was really polite. All it took was mentioning methadone for him to walk away.

  • Jim Buchan

    As another Nazi was found in Minnesota, we are reminded that crimes that are old are still crimes. Time away doesn’t abscond the punishment waiting for them.
    Marty was responsible for terrorizing people and breaking them. While he may not be responsible for killing anyone…he ruined lives.
    I see a conman who has found a way to continue the CON without the baggage of Miscavige.

    • Proud to be an SP

      I agree 100%.

    • richelieu jr

      Unfortunately he can just sit tight until the statute of limitations runs out and he’ll get away with it. the number one, most important thing is that Marty Rathbun never suffer one minute of what he dished out for 3 decades.

      • Spackle Motion

        That may not be entirely true. Depending on the crime and jurisdiction, the SoL starts when the crime is first discovered.

        AND, he could still face some federal charges stemming from his IRS dealings, again depending on the crime.

        There are ways to nail this guy. The one time he wrote about seeing the FBI tell me that they knew exactly who he was the moment he stepped into their office. From what I recall, he was criticizing them for not know much about Scientology and acting dumb. This is strange considering that others had the exact opposite to say about the FBI team that was investigating them back in 2009-2010.

        • richelieu jr

          From your lips to the Ghost of J Edgar’s ears…

  • media_lush

    ….. OKAY….. ARE YOU WAITING……. JUST WHEN IT COULDN’T GET ANY WORSE FOR SCIENTOLOGY WE NOW HAVE A KATIE HOLMES BOOK IN THE PIPELINE….. IT’S LIKE THE LULZ HAVE GOTTEN SUPER-POWERED….

    • DodoTheLaser

      WUT?!!!! Link, please!!!!!

    • Proud to be an SP

      oh wow I want to pre-order it NOW!

    • Poison Ivy

      Holy cow! How did she ever get out w/only a 12-month confidentiality contract??? I want her Dad as MY lawyer!!

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        Ya know, I bet there are some things that are still off limits. I also can’t believe that she would completely dish for dollars for the sake of Suri.

        Now that it’s out that she is shopping the book around, I would be VERY careful if I were her. DM is getting more desperate and crazier by the day. With the book, comes the book tour and it will be like the divorce all over again in terms of media coverage. With any luck, it will coincide with some decisions on many court cases that are looming.

        • SandiCorrena

          She is very smart, it’s prob already written. And she may be doing it to make sure they all leave Suri alone….forever! Like insurance!

          • Bella Legosi

            hell yeah……..she did have an entire year to work on it

            >D

        • MissCandle

          I would consider dishing or almost anything else if it would keep my daughter from the clutches of shorty and shortest.

    • SandiCorrena

      She def had something in her pocket that protected her from the wrath of such a big being; hope she shares it!

    • media_lush

      Chapter 1

      I knew that something was wrong on the first night after we married when Tom threw a strap-on on the bed and asked me to put it on……

      • http://twitter.com/Scientology_411 Scientology_411

        Or that Jessica Feshbach was sitting beside the bed filming it for little Davey the voyeur.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Is this a hoax? Fuck, I hope not. Oh well.

      • media_lush

        It’s a legit site owned by Microsoft

        • DodoTheLaser

          Holy shit! Thank you.

        • EnthralledObserver

          I saw the magazine, and a rival with a similar cover tonight at the shops… I don’t ordinarily buy such mags, so unless you beg me I can’t let you know what they say ‘inside’. :p

    • SP ‘Onage

      I wish, but I doubt it because of Suri.

      Who Is Katie Holmes? An Unauthorized Biography by New York Times best-selling celebrity biographer Marc Shapiro was released on Wednesday and insiders tell Radar that Katie, 34, isn’t worried about what’s in the book, but is just annoyed that her life — including her childhood, her involvement with the controversial Church of Scientology and of course her relationship with Tom — is being rehashed for public consumption.

    • Spackle Motion

      zomg. I really hope this is true.

    • tetloj

      If this is the Australian Woman’s Day I’l get it and send you the article

    • tetloj

      If this is the Australian Woman’s Day I’l get it and send you the article

    • FistOfXenu

      Shit, meet fan. Fan ..

  • Poison Ivy

    Thank you for posting this Tony. You were fabulous; great interview.
    All the interviews were excellent. The footage looked terrific. Great editing and pacing – it flew by. For two young filmmakers, they get an A plus on this (from an oldster.)
    (Did they flip your interview for the two bites when you were on the left? Just curious from a directoral standpoint.)
    A great contribution to the media record in the strange chronicle of Scientology’s rise and ( she knocks wood) ultimate fall.
    I think they succeeded admirably in what they set out to do. However I would have loved to have seen a little more attention paid to “meet the new boss same as the old boss” aspect of the “tech.” They clearly made a creative choice to skip over the doctrine stuff which is the meat of the issue – can Scientology really be “reformed” if it was created as the self-aggrandizing scam of a mentally unbalanced, possible bipolar/paranoid schizophrenic/narcissistic congenital liar?
    Can you separate the e-meter/auditing “tech” (oh that word makes me want to vomit) from the doctrine of paranoid hate and selfishness that is at the root of Scientology?
    It all comes down to that, IMHO.
    But I understand that this would be less interesting to a general audience; not everyone is as obsessed with this stuff as the Bunkerites.

  • DodoTheLaser

    I think this is a good documentary that will do good in the long run.
    I feel sympathetic towards Mosey and understand Marty more.
    It takes time to break out from this cult’s mentality.
    Thank you Tony, you were great there!

  • CommunicatorIC

    Speaking of Independent Scientology: Independent Scientology and the Return of Disconnection?
    http://t.co/UhmwHGzVO0

  • CommunicatorIC

    Speaking of Independent Scientology: Independent Scientology and the Return of Fair Game, Disconnection, and the Ends Justify the Means?
    http://t.co/E6rsqfTJpX

    • Espiando

      Big deal. It’s Steve Hall and his little band of hardliners who went after Marty for not being pure enough. All they’ve done is put a formal structure behind what Hall’s been trying to do for three years. The only remotely sane one of the bunch is Dan Koon. This has Epic Fail written all over it. Set phasers to Ignore.

  • Bella Legosi

    I am already 13 min in and just have to say……good freaking job! Especially to you Tony! Very, very, well done!

    Now, I am going to watch the rest!

  • Bella Legosi

    WOW……so I am at 35:36…..did I just hear the most ethical people on the planet saying that Marty is a “cult militia leader”? Just so we are crystal clear…….Co$ must have word cleared the word “cult” OR just threw a bunch of scary sounding words in there!

    Couldn’t help but notice that……..had to playback just to make sure I heard that correctly.

    I have to point out that Co$ entire production of these propaganda “Squirrel Busters” is very reminiscent of election and proposition commercials that air every election cycle! It’s really that bad…….like almost fake for the sake of being fake type of baaaaad.

  • Bella Legosi

    As I sit here watching this I am really caught between a rock and a hard place. I am caught between really not likeing anything Hubbard inspired…….and having to accept that there are those who believe in Hubbard still. As far as Independents go, I don’t single them out for ridicule. It would be safe to say that when Indies are discussed I tend to keep quiet (I am NOT saying I never have said my 2 cents on the topic either). Watching this tonight makes me kinda glad I don’t single them out for ridicule. Cuz, at the end of the day those Independents really do have a right to believe what ever it is they want and who to listen to whom ever they want; so long as they do not break the laws of this land or bring any harm into the lives they touch. If that can be done, then they really do have the right to try and I say go for it……..go for broke.

    But, then part of me remembers that the tech can potentially be fatal in the hands of those who know not what they are messing with. Lisa McPherson immediately comes to mind; as well as the out of control NarCONon staff in control of “rehab”! If this stuff can break your very psyche into pieces, should it be so easy to “apply” yourself or others from “applying” it to YOU? I do not think that rabit “overt” tech will cause insanity 100% of the time, but should “laymen” really have the power to do this to eachother? I suppose that is a heavily loaded theological question! lol Kinda thinking out loud at the moment

    • richelieu jr

      The only way it could ever be OK would be with informed consent, and that can only happen if Marty starts coming clean and the church’s crimes (real-world ones!) and failings are exposed.

      Then people would know not to take massive amounts of vitamines or let people die of thirst who are coming apart mentally.. They would know the church has the right to lie and that it is a ‘sacrament’…

      Until that day: No, no, no!

      • MissCandle

        No, it would not be OK with informed consent because children cannot give informed consent.

        • richelieu jr

          Clearly never with children, of course but I didn’t think we were speaking about them…

    • Spackle Motion

      I take the position that the tech is dangerous quackery, delivered both inside and outside the cult.

      These Scientologists are not professionally trained, licensed, certified, have the proper education and clinical experience, and have no professional duty to handle all potential outcomes (e.g.suicidal thoughts, thought disorders, signs of serious mental illness). Add a ‘student’ that is in a psychological crisis, and you may have a perfect storm for disaster.

      I see what they all do as morally and ethically wrong, and it should be illegal. They can believe in whatever they choose, but practicing dangerous behavior modification and hypnotism techniques on people is like playing with fire.

  • AutOmatic

    I am very upset at the lack of WAR!!! in this program. I shall have to prose a stern letter to Channel 4 in regards to this signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found,
    subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat
    for three months and recycled as firelighters.

    • richelieu jr

      FAIL! Go look it up:

      “War: (noun): Melodramatic flap by self-aggrandizing gasbags. Water may squirted or T-Shirts printed.”

  • Bella Legosi

    You know what burns my ass?

    That the FBI is actually spending time and man hours digging up what they *think* may be Jimmy Hoffa. http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/us/michigan-hoffa-search/ Can someone please tell me WTF finding Jimmy Hoffa will do for society? I have thought about it some and have come up with nada. Finding his dead, murdered corpse isn’t going to change history or the way in which we view it………so why? >(

    Yet, Little Boots and his band of criminal insurance/credit card frauders are sleeping in nice beds tonight?

    • Spackle Motion

      The ridiculousness of the government is staggering. I see it every single day.

      One thing I’ve realized is that most governmental bodies are terrified of bad press and activists. They try to avoid it like the plague. With that said, they also bathe themselves in good press and pull it out of their pockets come budget battle time.

    • ze moo

      The FBI are just trying to solve a very cold case. They must have dug up most of Michigan and left holes in half the states by now.

      • Bella Legosi

        I don’t think it will ever get solved. Those who were there and participated in his disappearence are all starting to kick the bucket. If anything clear comes out of this, it will prolly be some death bed confession. I really do not believe that the FBI will ever find a body. I believe Hoffa was thrown in an incinerator after being killed. Any trace of that is looong gone by now. That is why I think it is utterly wasteful for the FBI to continue digging holes!

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Don’t even get me started!!!

    • Spackle Motion

      One more thing, Bella, I wouldn’t be surprised if we find out that there’s a film crew going along with this Hoffa goose chase. I suspect that some media entity like Discovery Channel paid the FBI to participate in the Hoffa hunt.

      • Bella Legosi

        I wouldn’t be surprised! It will prolly be an epic fail, just like Geraldo’s “Capone Secret Room”. I think ol’ Jimmy got a trip into some sort of incinerator a looooong time ago. I reserve the right to be wrong tho; I doubt this will produce any result or any useful result.

        • Spackle Motion

          I was one that watched the Geraldo “Capone” disaster live, and I’ve heard Geraldo speak about that debacle on the radio recently. He has a funny outlook on it, and from what he said, he knew it would probably be a bust but the television execs wanted him to grandstand about it. Of course he says that now.

          But the funniest part was when he said something like, “when the camera light finally went off in the last shot, I immediately dropped the microphone and ran to the bar in the hotel that was right above us. I got very sloshed within about 20 minutes after it ended.”

    • MissCandle

      Maybe if the FBI dressed up in Star Trek costumes like the IRS officials did, they might dig up Xenu instead of Hoffa.

  • Guest

    I think this was a poignant program continuing a much wanted onslaught directed at the Church. It’s encouraging the new found balls the media has been flaunting against the Chuch by publishing the already known-to-the-informed abuses as portrayed here.

    On top of educating the broad public to put pressure on the Church to knock its lies and abuses off, it always give ammunition to individuals such as myself to use against my still-in family, friends and Church members who levy attacks and arguments against me. It’s hard to fight truth, and truth has been spreading like wildfire, growing into a conflagration.

    I agree with many of the different points made in the comments section here. I agree that Marty is a good centerpiece and fulcrum with which to attack the Church with, but I also agree that Marty “created the beast” and others like me who grew up as children and left had to go through the consequences – horrific consequences of feeling worthless, hating ourselves, having nothing to live for, no one who gave a damn about our survival and in fact would applaud a suicide if we were kind enough to choose that option – an option some of us would entertain nightly as a means to help us fall asleep, as at least we had “some way out”. That machine we fell victim to was giving birth to be LRH and then intensified and propagated in large part by Marty.

    In contrast to harboring some malice towards him – as I’ve not quite found my zen place on the subject – I do applaud that Marty, being such a key figure in the works, does what he does and has been the impetus for hundreds of people to give the Church a middle finger to chew on. So my appreciation outweighs my indignation on the matter – which I believe others should follow suit on as I know they all want a very similar thing as me; to see the Church’s continued failing.

    All in all, I look at this brief documentary as another small uptick in a trending victory for

  • Roman

    I think this was a poignant program continuing a much wanted onslaught directed at the Church. It’s encouraging the new found balls the media has been flaunting against the Chuch by publishing the already known-to-the-informed abuses as portrayed here.

    On top of educating the broad public to put pressure on the Church to knock its lies and abuses off, it always give ammunition to individuals such as myself to use against my still-in family, friends and Church members who levy attacks and arguments against me. It’s hard to fight truth, and truth has been spreading like wildfire, growing into a conflagration.

    I agree with many of the different points made in the comments section here. I agree that Marty is a good centerpiece and fulcrum with which to attack the Church with, but I also agree that Marty “created the beast” and others like me who grew up as children and left had to go through the consequences – horrific consequences of feeling worthless, hating ourselves, having nothing to live for, no one who gave a damn about our survival and in fact would applaud a suicide if we were kind enough to choose that option – an option some of us would entertain nightly as a means to help us fall asleep, as at least we had “some way out”. That machine we fell victim to was giving birth to be LRH and then intensified and propagated in large part by Marty.

    In contrast to harboring some malice towards him – as I’ve not quite found my zen place on the subject – I do applaud that Marty, being such a key figure in the works, does what he does and has been the impetus for hundreds of people to give the Church a middle finger to chew on. So my appreciation outweighs my indignation on the matter – which I believe others should follow suit on as I know they all want a very similar thing as me; to see the Church’s continued failing.

    All in all, I look at this brief documentary as another small uptick in a trending victory for the lot of us.

    • richelieu jr

      Sorry for what you’ve been through Roman. It sounds awful…

      I must say, you do sound much more like how I would in your place… I can’t imagine I’d be as wonderfully zen and forgiving as so many on this list. I admire that but I think I’d still be wishing, slow painful deaths on a few people…

      Hell, as Marty points out I’m angry and it didn’t even happen to me!

    • aquaclara

      Sorry about those still in who are attacking and arguing with you. Like most family fights, it’s more than more than beer, tequila or Advil can fix. Unlike ordinary squabbles, though, they have the cultie blindsidedness that makes arguments tiring.
      Stay strong, Roman, and when you need a funny retort to lob back to those pelting you with their best Scilonisms, just come back here for help. These are some of the funniest people I’ve ever met, and they are always up for a verbal swordfight.

  • Bob

    “One of the problems with Scientology is, is that it becomes so religious, ok, you no longer have a life, so there’s nothing to improve.” That pretty much defines the whole movement. The life in Scientology once you are fully committed is about perpetuating the church; everything is secondary. Marty’s statement presents the perspective of someone who has come to terms with the intense programming that created the current army of clam bots. The church claims to want to make people free to be themselves. In fact it makes people slaves to the purpose of making more slaves to the church.

    • Roman

      Bob, you’re spot on with this. I grew up in it and can confirm that it’s the only thing that matters whatsoever. Eating, drinking, bathing, exercising even, are just things to keep your body healthy to go up the Bridge. You meet non-Scientology people and immediately your brain reverts to the policies and doctrine on converting and hard-selling “wogs” on needing and joining Scientology. Every single wog you meet, your brain goes on autopilot to start judging their tone level and how you should act and react to their communication regarding ARC and Tone Levels as dictated by LRH. When you see other Scientologists, 90% of the time, the first words out of yours or their mouth are “So how’s course?” or “What auditing are you getting?”. If you or them answers in the negative, you inquire, “When are you going back on?” At family dinners, generally over 75% of all conversations are related back to Church activities, course, auditing or “what LRH says about that.” Marty is very correct in noting that when you get out, you really don’t know what the hell to do to replace the thing which consumed your entire life.

      • Bob

        Roman, it currently is as you say it was. Only it is worse now as people are consumed by ideal morgue fundraisers as well as other IAS fundraising. When GAT II comes out I can only imagine how it consumes the clams. Scientology could be renamed:

        Consumology! The church that keeps on taking.

        • FistOfXenu

          Like this?

          • Bob

            LOL. At least it is an accurate sign. They call it negative gain till you reach OT VIII. Meaning you get rid of all your money.

  • Sunny Sands

    Marty was going through depression after he left the church. Then Mosey went to the garage and dug out his old scientology books to cheer him up. Now he has purpose in life spreading indie scientology. She should have thrown those books in the trash, the world would be a better place.

    • pronoia

      I would bet that he refused to consider any kind of mental health treatment. And scientology was something. Kind of like a drug. For both their sakes I hope he finds his way to some kind of counseling or therapy as it is obvious that his demons are not going anywhere.

      • phronsie

        I bet he could have, with the right prompting, found another cause to renew his focus and his energy, but maybe not one that would have granted him the same channel to leading and controlling others. All I could do is wince when his wife said that she treated his depression (withdrawal?) by “feeding him the same drug” so to speak. To be honest, this video left me feeling that some people watching it might see Marty as the brave under-dog visionary whose cause deserves support…. I hate the thought of people escaping the main cult only to fall back into the same trap, but then I had to remind myself that having someone else control their lives actually is what some people want.

  • richelieu jr

    It just came to me: “Fat Man and Little Boy” would be a good name for either this documentary or for one on LRH and Davey.

  • Roman

    Something I’ve had a remarkably hard time coming to terms with in life is the idea of ignorance, or “just following orders”. Scientology’s abuse was not a fluke. It was engineered. Marty was one of the key engineers. It’s amazing because we all got so fucked from being in that Church for as long as we were and leaving, that the only person capable of helping us, is the god damn guy who helped ruin our lives. That’s what I call a necessary evil. All the things I despise in OSA and the people within there, Marty created. He was them. He taught them to be them. Manipulative, sadistic, robots.

    Ignorance is not an excuse for ruining peoples’ lives. Self-serving evil should not be justified. The evil they perpetrate comes back on them just as they dole it out – just look at Marty. It’s hard to feel sorry for him or anyone else that engineered the machine. It’s like the author of the Iron Maiden being executed by said machine. I wouldn’t even care.

    • Bob

      Being a perpetrator and a victim at the same time I cannot continue to vilify Marty for what he was. He is that no more, just as I am a victim no more. We choose our masters good or bad. You can’t blame Marty for your choice to be a victim. The fact is you are no longer a victim. What we are now is to me the most important thing. Not what we were. Marty has changed his Karma. Those who are still in and perpetrating the lie are the ones who really need to worry. Focus should be on bringing them down as we now know they do more harm than good.

      • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

        You sound like you’re still drinking some of the Kool-aid. People do not “choose” to be victims.

    • sugarplumfairy

      You had me until your last two lines.. Are you saying you wouldn’t care if co$ destroyed Marty? I completely disagree.. I believe in redemption and I believe Marty is working toward that.. And I love Mosey.. Marty must have some good in him for the universe to have rewarded him with Mosey.. Co$ sucked Marty in as a young man.. They trained him to be what he turned into.. Thank goodness COB turned on him and forced Marty to rethink his choice of life mission.. I support the changes he’s trying to make and I wish him and Mosey well.

      • pronoia

        Don’t forget Chiquita — what an excellent little beastie she is! And you could hear the genuine feeling Marty has for here when he pulled up to his house and said something about her little ears.

        Regarding making Marty what he is — the CoS took his very best qualitie (his loyalty and courage) and perverted it. Sort of how Smeagel became Gollum. The story of Marty’s response when he got caught in the crossfire in that horrific Sea Org murder really struck me — it was his capacity for courage which was also what provided fodder for converting him into a ruthless enforcer. He did something incredibly courageous — but was allowed to believe he failed (which he didn’t — it was an impossible situation) and was offered the “power” to never fail again. Ditto with the situation with his brother. Couldn’t “save” him, but was determined to save the entire fricken planet. A lot of people respond as Marty did to early circumstances. They just haven’t had the misfortune of running into Scientology in the midst of normal human pain and confusion.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Yep..

      • phronsie

        Co$ thinking — “Marty must have some good in him for the universe to have rewarded him with Mosey” — you pull in the bad and you pull in the good? Good and bad things happen to good and bad people seems to be what life shows us…. Frankly, she may not have been the best thing to happen to him; by urging him to go back to the old crutch, she may very well have doomed others into being led into the same lies and mind/behavioral control. She also seems very blithe about dismissing his past actions — you hurt a bunch of people? Oh well, you can’t dwell in the past! Tra la la! Uh…what?

        • sugarplumfairy

          I still love Mosey.. And I wish both of them the best.. And I disagree that my thinking is in any way co$-like.. You have your beliefs.. I have mine.. a universal consciousness is one of those beliefs.. and co$ cannot take credit for that.. I’m glad Marty is aware of Karma, but I think he still has some work to do..

  • mook

    found this on WWP. one of the top candidates for Paris mayor is strongly anti-CoS
    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/anne-hidalgo-top-paris-mayor-candidate-is-seriously-against-cos.111705/

    • Espiando

      The problem is that Hildago’s going to be dragged down by Hollande’s unpopularity, unless Hollande can turn things around in the next six months or so. If she can get in, this isn’t going to be regarded by the palourdes as an improvement, because Delanoe is, well, you know, 1.1.

      Keep on enturbulating, Paris.

  • Sethur

    As someone who got out of the Rajneesh thing just as it was turning into a cult, may I make an observation?

    The “tech” of Scientology is just one set of mental exercises, either done alone, in pairs or in groups, that are found in myriad systems, from Scientology to Zen, from Positive Thinking to Sufism. Find someone in the right state of mind and practically any system will make an improvement. This is particularly true of actors who use “The Method”, where you “become the character” you are playing so thoroughly that inbetween gigs you aren’t sure who you are.

    What differentiates all of these mind training techniques is how they are sold, how people are recruited and how recruits are kept. There are many instances of practically identical systems, such as those in the Shabd Yoga tradition, that some groups run perfectly well and others are run as cults.

    I see no reason that Dianetic “tech” up to Clear can’t help people. I do think that people need to realise that the grades beyond were largely invented by LRH because the first “Clears” he put on display couldn;t achieve many of the miracles he predicted. Even then, though, the methods might have value.

    Whether there is a future in “independent Scientology” is a matter of conjecture, the first two attempts (especially A.E. Van Bogt’s Dianology) died out pretty fast.

    Good documentary, I wil watch developments with interest.

    • Bleuler

      There is no doubt that mental exercises of this nature, whatever name you put on them, may help a person. However Scientology oversells the benefits that can be derived. Scientology is not a fraud because they make you hold mental cans and talk you through problems, in all fairness with some success. They are a fraud because they claim this same process can help you become sooperhuman OT with bells and whistles.

      • FistOfXenu

        They’re also abusers because they use every thing you tell them to screw you out of all your dough while you’re in and control you if you try to leave and black mail you into silence if you make it out the door. And that’s not an abuse of $cientology it’s standard tech standardly applied according to Lie Rant Humbug’s Typewriter Diarhea Tech (TM).

      • Captain Howdy

        It’s also medical fraud because the registrars routinely tell potential members that the tech can cure whatever ails them.

  • Patty Moher

    Absolutely loved the end. Scientology denies… Scientology denies… Scientology denies… Scientology denies…

    Scientology lying liars that lie.

  • Patty Moher

    I realize as time goes by and I’m further and further away from the cult, that I’ve become more tolerant. My former Scn mindset was one of complete intolerance for anything not 100 percent standard LRH tech. That intolerance was the standard, insipid, bigoted, narrow minded guy from the 50’s point of view. Imagine living your life through the mindset of an old crazy white guy that considered himself SOURCE of ALL KNOWLEDGE. . That was my life. And man did it ever suck.

    Part of stripping away the craziness has caused me a lot more tolerance of guys like Marty. He’s still going through the process and he seems to be moving along quite well.

    To me the Independent Scientologists are people who are on the road to waking up from the mindset. Each one of us takes a road out, some take longer than others, some are never able to recuperate and die depressed and betrayed.

    Marty’s doing it right. He’s getting his own life back in his own way. Good for him.

  • California

    Excellent over-view of the past and current state of SCN. I do wish that they could have addressed Narconon, etc., but their focus was clearly on the Independent movement, how it came to be and where Marty, and others, think that is going.

  • BosonStark

    Alternative title: How ya doin’ Mr. Squirrel?

    I watched this again and Squirrel Buster Joanne was a real show stealer. Another thing I laughed out loud at was the first picture of the “Commodore” they used.

    I suspect that the combination of the use of close-ups, x-files type music (yeah, it was a little overused), serious announcer with the contrast between the fascinating clips — golf cart water sports to Scientology celebrity pageantry — will get the “loon” message across very strongly for the average viewer.

    You could tell a lot of work and care went into the making of this, and I think the assortment of images were fascinating and kept it moving along very well.

  • Sherbet

    I haven’t watched this yet, but I’m reluctant to watch anything that’s a paean to indie scientology. Is it? I’ll take everyone’s advice here

    • pronoia

      Watch it. For one thing, it is highly entertaining. For another, it does not (except for a brief comical description of OT III) get into “theology” of Marty or the Cult at all. It is all about the war between Marty and DM. Lots of until now unseen squirrel buster antics. Just when you thought they couldn’t get any creeper, they show that they can. And the entire conspiracy behind the Ingleside on the Bay sprinkler tech is finally revealed!

      • Sherbet

        OK, ‘knickers and pronoia. I will, on your advice and counsel.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Wear a helmet and bring an umbrella. Oh, barf bag.

    • monkeyknickers

      Watch it if only to see Joanne the Maniacal Squirrel Buster lose her shit in a cheap plastic poncho. It rocks.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Honestly Mk, I was not going to watch this…..
        But now that I have read this comment…..I gotta!

        • monkeyknickers

          It was pretty rad. :)

    • Captain Howdy

      It’s worth watching. It has some fairly rare footage.

    • MissCandle

      I recommend that you watch it. Tony’s lookin’ good. Everyone else, indie or churchie, inspires pity.

  • monkeyknickers

    This is a good vid, but damn am I distracted by the fact that Tony’s head looks exactly like it’s floating in space all by itself. Tony Ortega: next time, wear white or something so I don’t get fixated on levitating body parts. I have a small brain that is SO easily blown. It’s like dandelion fluff. Work with me here brother! :)

    • Robert Eckert

      He was exteriorizing!

      • monkeyknickers

        He was!! Tony is a plant! A covert practitioner of the tech!

        HE’S KNOWN THE SECRET PURPOSE OF THE OILINESS TABLE ALL ALONG!

        I think I need a morning cocktail. Just to settle my nerves.

    • tetloj

      Like Holly from Red Dwarf

      • Rachel Heidi

        That was gonna be my response, smeghead! ;P

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      It reminded me of this, but probably because I just saw the remake.

      [IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/bdpgmc.jpg[/IMG]

    • hogarthian

      knickers…. you’re over thinking it with the headless thing. Tony is a classy dude, a vision of sartorial elegance. He was demonstrating what I believe those in the fashion world refer to as ‘a look’….. and the look is always black, dontcha know! ;-)

  • monkeyknickers

    Is there a link anywhere to the squirrelbusters “Marty Rathbun Cult Militia” sci film? I’m dying to see it.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    After sleeping on it, I figured out why I was so disappointed at the Mosey figure in this saga. The scientology process doesn’t produce Mindless robots. It produces robotic Enablers. How has scientology survived all these decades? Not because of a handful of sociopaths, schizophrenics, greedy conmen. The majority kept breathing life into the machine by our “helping” other addicts, or victims of abuse, or depressed or anxiety ridden customers that scientology was the medicine to fix it all. We all had one or two moments that helped us in the beginning, but most of the time we were lying at the examiner, writing success stories about our latest “win” and repeating it to some poor guy who just had a normal teenage case of shyness, or a distraught mother who’s child had lost interest in school. It’s even worse today when members press a breadwinner to lie to get a loan or risk their entire income sources, their children’s homes and education, their savings. That is enabling on steroids!

    “Those who habitually enable dysfunctional behavior are often referred to as co-dependent. It’s a telling word, because an enabler’s self-esteem is often dependent on his or her ability and willingness to “help” in inappropriate ways. This “help” allows the enabler to feel in control of an unmanageable situation. The reality, though, is that enabling not only doesn’t help, but it actively causes harm and makes the situation worse.

    By stepping in to “solve” the addict’s problems, the enabler takes away any motivation for the addict to take responsibility for his or her own actions. Without that motivation, there is little reason for the addict to
    change. Enablers help addicts dig themselves deeper into trouble.”

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-anatomy-addiction/201207/are-you-empowering-or-enabling

    That’s why I can’t ever again say that scientology processes are not harmful, especially to young children and young adults. It is unlicensed, not peer reviewed, unregulated practices of mental maneuvers. Hubbard’s oppressive and paranoid “ethics and justice” system, again, it is interwoven into every process and it is The most dangerous shard of the whole mess, including PTS and SP, conditions, stats, Sec checks (including children’s sec checks). The Purif is without question dangerous and at best quackery. Scientologists believe the laws don’t apply to them as they have superior tech. They don’t need the same checks and balances, the same education and professional requirements, and that makes them dangerous practitioners.

    Forgiveness and understanding is what we Ex’s do best because we all, well most, reach a point where we have to forgive and understand ourselves, and then help those crawling out of the muck. But I have seen what happens from personal experiences when a wife enabled her husband’s alcohol addiction by getting him back on the booze when he got depressed, but “only” the harmless stuff, like beer. These stories always end the same: tragic loss. I can still hold out hope that Mosey will get Marty professional help. I believe she actually could make that happen if she wanted to. In the meantime, those who want to “practice” on themselves, fine. Just do not show up in my family’s or neighbors’ or friend’s neighborhood schools or offices or their homes, trying to get them
    Hooked on Hubbard.

    • Rob Kline

      Well said.

    • Spackle Motion

      Bravo. You said it better than I ever could.

    • 1subgenius

      Good analysis.
      Mosey won’t get him any other help.
      She’s getting her rewards, and enjoying her 15 minutes.

      • MissCandle

        Plus, her husband needed a way to make $$$ for the family. Didn’t marty say in the doc that he audits people for a living? Mosey says that if he chose another career (like selling real estate), he would be backing down. I think selling real estate would actually be the honorable choice.

    • SciWatcher

      Yep. Unlike many others, I did not have a positive reaction to Mosey at all. This is why.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Enablers are the kind, warm, the “everybody loves Auntie Annie” kind. Compassionate and caring people can fall into this easy enough. I sure have and I know many who have. But it doesn’t take long to realize the difference, or realize when you’re doing more harm then good and then back out. Classic enablers Never do and once you recognize what they are doing, and see it over and over, and the harm they inflict on all around, you start to “see” the person as they really are, not the masks they wear. And it ain’t pretty. They are very convincing and it’s easy to get fooled. I’m not saying here Mosey is a classic. I hope she isn’t! But I’ve had my share of experiences speaking up and getting verbally pelted for dissin’ sweet old Auntie Annie, lol.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Your 4th para is worth repeating: “That’s why I can’t ever again say that scientology processes are not
      harmful, especially to young children and young adults. It is
      unlicensed, not peer reviewed, unregulated practices of mental
      maneuvers. Hubbard’s oppressive and paranoid “ethics and justice”
      system, again, it is interwoven into every process and it is The most
      dangerous shard of the whole mess, including PTS and SP, conditions,
      stats, Sec checks (including children’s sec checks). The Purif is
      without question dangerous and at best quackery. Scientologists
      believe the laws don’t apply to them as they have superior tech. They
      don’t need the same checks and balances, the same education and
      professional requirements, and that makes them dangerous practitioners.”

      Also, yes Mosey can easily get Marty some psych help: her father is a psychiatrist, I believe.

      • Spackle Motion

        No, her father is a psychology professor. Not a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are MDs.

        • 1subgenius

          They both must be some kind of idiots to be so ignorant of such obvious coercive persuasion brainwashing.

        • PreferToBeAnon2

          Ah ok. Yes, I know the difference. The point still remains that if he needed a good referral to a counselor, he probably could get one.

      • 1subgenius

        Mosey is an auditor now according to Mike Rinder.

        “Screaming nutjob is Joanne Wheaton.

        Mosey is an auditor now. And her TR’s ARE exemplary.”

        http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientologists-at-war/#comment-6580

    • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

      I had similar thoughts, with an exception. The similarity: Marty is depressed because of being cut off from Scientology. Mosey’s solution is to bring Scientology back into his life. That is exactly parallel to addiction and enabling. She meant well, but so does someone who gives an alcoholic a drink because the alcoholic’s feeling bad.

      Here’s the difference: if this is as parallel to addiction as I think it is, Mosey can’t get Marty professional help. She just can’t. She might be able to get him to go to the psychologist, but she can’t get him to do anything for his “sobriety” while he’s there. People get into this trap of thinking they can cure someone else’s addiction, and people close to the addict get blamed for not helping them. That’s like blaming someone for not flapping their arms and flying.

      Marty is the only person who can help Marty. Period.

    • John McGhee

      You really nailed it THDNE, I wish I could like this more than once. I was always shot down when I gave similar opinions on Mosey on fb, with the least likely individuals somehow falling for her charm. Poor Mosey is little more than a nodding dog, a lot like the wife of a wifebeater or scumbag, where she will stand by him no matter what wrongs he perpetrates.

  • ze moo

    The UK viewers got a nice documentary last night. I am impressed that the documentary was on youtube so quickly. That bespeaks a lot of interest in the subject. I can see the most visible outcome of the show is a story that seems to be popping up all over. “Tom Cruise tried to convert Penelope Cruz to Scientology.” From the Irish Examiner to the National Enquirer the story is everywhere. The crazy is being told and more people are inoculated from clammisery.

    Chip, chip, chip, the wall is being knocked down, slowly but surely……

  • 1subgenius

    Reminded of how poorly Marty handled the Squirrel Busters.
    As pointed out, they got the reactions they intended.
    How he fell for it is beyond belief.

    • Rachel Heidi

      Um… I’m not one to really stand up for Marty but they REALLY provoked him, and I’m surprised his reactions were so mild, to be frank. I’m impressed by his restraint.

      • stateofcircle

        Agreed. I mean, regardless of anyone’s personal opinions of Marty, if there was a group of straight up whack jobs outside of your house EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. for nearly a year, yelling things, videotaping you, upsetting your wife, bothering your neighbors and harassing you every time to stepped out of the door, how would you react? That could definitely drive a person to insanity. He finally flipped his lip when one of them made his wife feel uncomfortable, which I think many men could understand. Again, regardless of anyone’s personal opinion of him, and I certainly haven’t been his cheerleader, I think he held it together pretty well and I don’t fault him at all for that stupid scuffle.

      • Truthiwant

        Marty Rathbun is like Mrs. Pankhurst.
        The more times she got thrown in jail, the more she was adored.
        The handcuffing scene makes you feel sympathetic towards Rathbun.

    • Captain Howdy

      Seeing as how it’s Texas, I don’t understand why he even bothered to interact with the idiots. All he needed to do was get a bigger dog and a 12 ga..loaded with rock salt, and he would have been golden.

      • 1subgenius

        Not interacting (personally) would have been the way.
        And after all his years of being trained in their tactics, and training to not react.
        He did far worse than anyone who didn’t have all his OT powers.
        Spitting, slapping, screaming, grabbing personal property.
        He dodged a legal bullet on the assault charge.

        • Captain Howdy

          Yeah, but look at all the media recognition he got from it. Look at all the gigs he got talking to the various media outlets as a “scientology expert”.

          • 1subgenius

            I don’t think he poor behavior got him that. He got that despite it.

            • Captain Howdy

              I remember when this shit was actually going down a lot of people were speculating that Marty was manipulating the situation to make himself a martyr to the indie crowd, and to get his name in the press. I don’t doubt that’s a possibility. He’s got his “craft”, eh?

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            yep

        • Captain Howdy

          So did we get down voted for “picking on” Marty. or was it because we’re too cynical? Heh-heh..thanks anyway.

          • 1subgenius

            WWMND? What would Marty not do?
            Ignore.

          • Truthiwant

            Well, I gave you an up vote for your cynicism.

        • FistOfXenu

          Strange isn’t it? He must have great TRs and all that being at cause and Tone 40 and everything but he still fell into a trap he probably set a hundred times. Maybe he needs more auditing? Or maybe he needs to stop thinking the Ron Tech works.

      • Truthiwant

        Dogs usually love chasing squirrels but I think that Rathbun’s mut is just a bit too fat for that sort of activity.

        My advice? Keep the dog on a strict diet and tell him not to bite the postman anymore and go for the Scio idiots instead.

    • MissCandle

      He said he was protecting his wife from being glared at by the sunglass man. But you’re right — he still succumbed.

      • FistOfXenu

        Sure, because sunglass man has super OT vision that was giving her engrams. Got a feeling she was handling the guy just fine til Marty decided to go all warrior on him. Marty would’ve been better to let her provoke the little sissy til he touched her. Then if Marty’s more than mouth he could’ve used reasonable force to protect Mosey and the culties would’ve had to shut up and suck it up.

        • MissCandle

          You’re right.

  • loulai

    Marty has been instrumental in helping a lot of people who were being tormented by Scientology and in so doing has greatly helped accelerate the decomposition of the cult. He helped Debbie Cook. He helped the Headleys, and he has helped others as a way-station in the “underground railway”. Without his testimony and energy many of those fighting the cult would have had a much more difficult time and perhaps failed to make it out of the concentration camp. This has nothing to do with excusing past transgressions or even present mistakes. Still, I think it’s important to recognize the enormous help he has rendered to people who have challenged the cult in court and have helped others to escape. No one can accuse him of lacking courage or energy for the war. To me, that counts for a lot. Miscavige would sleep a lot more peacefully without Marty in the fight.

    Marty has a different, noticeably less gracious personality than, say, Tory Christman. But both are doing a lot of good for a lot of people in pain. To fully come to grips/make amends for the crimes he committed during his years inside will probably take the rest of his life. But it seems to me encouragement and compassion are more likely to assist him to make those amends than unmitigated condemnation.

    • FLUNK_101

      Great post! I forgot that Marty helped the Headleys.
      But he was the enforcer of fair game and disconnection, too … he caused a lot of pain and suffering.
      Thank you loulai for your thoughtful and compassionate post!

      • Spackle Motion

        A lot of us bunker fans also helped the Headleys. All of the donated money minus the $8k that Rathbun put in from the Cook fund was from other donors.

        • loulai

          I know a lot of people helped but that doesn’t detract from the money, encouragement, information, testimony etc. that Marty contributed. All I’m saying is that he has done a lot of harm and is doing a lot of good.

          • Spackle Motion

            I agree that he is doing a limited amount of beneficial acts, but I do not consider his acts as an independent practitioner of medical quackery as a good thing for anyone.

            He contributed the remainder of the Cook fund, of which he did not disclose any amounts that he personally contributed. The 8K was from other donors of which he was managing that account.

  • Captain Howdy

    In case no one else has posted this, the artwork in the documentary is from “The Illustrated History of Scientology” by Rick Vodicka.

    And it can be found here:

    http://www.rickvodicka.com/IllustratedHistoryofScientology.pdf

    • 1subgenius

      Thanks. I was wondering. Its pretty freaky.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      i’m grasping for a word that means priceless + awesome.
      Thanks, Capt! This made my day!

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Thanks… enjoying it. Vodicka is an OT V and has been in for 39 years. But then, oddly, the bio says, “When he grows up. L. Rick Vodicka wants to be a lawyer.” Notice the “L” in front of his first name. He also can smell music. This is a fun bio with an interesting photo.

  • Truthiwant

    A space invader, a strange version of musical chairs, a cackling hag, a trio of looneys with cameras on their heads, garden sprinklers that soak everybody and an elusive private eye with a house full of surveillance equipment. YES, it’s the new Walt Disney film for all the family.
    No? Oh well, probably a documentary about Scientology.

  • ze moo

    Gawker has the complete CO$ response to Scienos at War.

    http://gawker.com/i-cant-stop-watching-scientologists-getting-sprinklers-514027504

    • Captain Howdy

      It’s what they showed at the end of the documentary.

    • stillgrace

      Gawker provides a link to a scene from Ingleside-On-The-Bay not included in the documentary:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtD-ctTI59E

      “Thank you, ladies!!”

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        I must admit, I chuckled at the Car Wash.

      • Tory Christman

        When I first saw this, my 1st response was “Oh… OSA is going to use THIS”…but ya know what? Who cares? They are bozos and they prove it every single day. No matter how you feel about Marty….I think many peeps see Marty’s Car Wash was spot on and funny too. Like I said about Tom Cruise on a few interviews: “I’d like to thank Tom Cruise for SHOWING THE WORLD what a Scientology “OT” looks and sounds like”. Same here…thanks, OSA! You bozos ALWAYS come through! Tory/Magoo

        • Tory Christman

          PS: And if you think that’s a compliment….think again. OSA sent Private Investigators to 2 of my friend’s homes after this…to “Find out if Tory is Libeling Tom Cruise”. Luckily, both were Ex-Scientologists themselves, and both said: “What if what Tory said was the truth?” The PI’s soon after left.

          • aquaclara

            This stinks, Tory. No one should have PIs sent out to their homes or out there bothering someone’s friends. Harassment is illegal, and one day they will get caught. In the meantime, there are lots of media people and other sane folks like us who read this stuff and KNOW that it is happening.
            I’m ready for the damn wall to start crumbling a little more.

      • Xique

        Christina Aguilera and a Texas Carwash, perfect together!

  • Sunny Sands

    An interesting post at gawker.com identifies the woman with the cackling laugh.

    “That is Joanne Wheaton, the widow of the ill fated pilot of Air Florida Flight 90 pilot, Larry Wheaton. Wikipedia has a nice page on that flight, if you want to take a gander.

    The flight crash into the icy Potomac was determined to be the fault of bad weather and bad decisions by Larry Wheaton, and Joanne got a nice payout from her husband’s pension, which she allegedly gave most of to the Scientology cult.

    The woman is a complete loon and a fierce kool aid drinker”.

    • TonyOrtega

      Not true. Check out the new post we just put up.

      • Sunny Sands

        Thanks for setting me straight.

  • TonyOrtega

    NEW POST UP with some annotations on the documentary.

  • Tone

    Most of the facts in the doc were things that hardcore critics had already seen, but they were woven into a most compelling and satisfying narrative. The Brits have given us some of the best stuff out there.

    I am so glad they gave Mosey so much time. She is a wonderful person and Marty is very very fortunate to have her in his life. I would very much like to have a friend like her.

    And may COB have a good case of indigestion from this!

  • Xique

    It’s true what Hartley Patterson points out, “only Mosey an Ortega have more than a few lines”, however I venture to say that they made the film, they really did. Despite never having been members of the church they both know a thing or two about it, having lived through all the chaos and confusion that is Scientology. They both spoke from a place of knowingness. ( SCN lingo) Granted Mosey’s experience is none like Tony’s but they both made excellent contributions to this saga, that’s what I call it anyway. I liked the documentary very much.

  • Xique

    Mosey and Tony were superb in this doc!

  • loulai

    There are many comments here as to the need for Marty to make amends to those he has harmed. For most, if not all of those people, the best he can do now-since the harm has already been done-is to expose the malevolent side of the Scientology ORGANIZATION. Individual Scientologists aren’t hurting people-at least no more than the rest of us as we make our way through life. It is the ORGANIZATION that has the power, the wealth, and the intention to enslave others while calling it freedom and selling it as omnipotence.

    Marty has taken a sledgehammer to the Scientology organization. All things considered, I am glad he has chosen to smash the cult to smithereens- even if it is unaccompanied by hundreds of individual confessions. For me, that is the best kind of amends.

    • PreferToBeAnon2

      Not true… this is not the best he can do. For starters, he can clear things up for Gerry Armstrong–who still cannot enter this county. And do not underestimate what the power of an apology and a touch of humility can do for those whose lives have been destroyed or to families who have lost loved ones. They deserve to have the chance to look the perpetrator in the eye and admit that they were wronged and that it wasn’t their fault–particularly after their psyches have been so demolished. There will never be justice for them, but an apology can help with struggles that may plague them for the rest of their lives. Whether we like him or not, he is an opinion leader, and showing contrition, humility, empathy, and personal responsibility is a model that deserves more respect than a book fancying himself to be a warrior. At the minimum, he could have published an Open Letter on his website. So, no, this is not the best he can do. But, this is the best we have and hopefully he will evolve.

  • http://www.jackejett.com/ Jack E. Jett

    I love this Doc on so many levels. I am a Doc-U-Holic and have seen several on various cults. I have sent this link out to many friends and told them to check out 5:30 to around 7:30 (timeline) as in those few minutes the belief system and how it came to be is describe in laymen’s terms and even the cartoonish nature is of a great help.

    This is by far the most simply explanation of something that I know many would say is far more in depth blah blah blah, but the reality is that most people don’t really care about the blah blah blah but just the facts mam…just the facts.
    In addition, I love bargains and I feel like I just got a $300,000 off coupon on this lesson, and that is awesome for this working Theta.

  • Television88

    I watched this doc for a second time and want to make a point as a total outsider. I don’t have
    the same admiration for this man as many of you do. His wife is amazing and we should all be so
    lucky to have someone like her in our life.

    For years I have watched Gay Reparative Therapy Groups and the “pray the gay away” movement as they gained momentum within religious organizations. One can only imagine how many gay teen
    committed suicide over this nonsense. And today more people come to see it as the harmful and hateful system
    it is. Just last week, some of the former leaders of these groups (many who claimed to have been cure) apologized to the gay and lesbian communities. My response to them.
    Fuck you! Damage done. Fuck off!

    Marty created his own damage and didn’t seem too apologetic about
    it. He got a dose of his own medicine and didn’t like the taste of it. Who
    would? Again…WHO in the hell would? Not the members of the media who were trying
    to pre warn people to avoid this shithole of a religion, that Marty happily and
    proudly bashed or any other prior SP’s MR’s KY’s or other moronic acronyms that
    he seem to thrive on. Had his power not be taken away, he would have created the Squirrel Busters.

    So while I have read and researched and have become so fascinated
    with this brilliant group of commenter’s here and racking my brain to figure
    out why such amazing minds could ever fall for such blatant in your face
    religious hypocritical BS, you must figure that your membership in this group
    has probably created some sort of unnecessary havoc in the lives of your
    friends and family.

    So I have pretty much come to the conclusion that Scientology is no different in Pentecostal, Catholic, Muslim, or Mormon. And really not that far from Jim Jones or Heaven’s Gate. And if you happen to be in the class where you were raised by parents who were into this crap, then I feel total sadness for you much the
    way I would feel for a child born to a Heroin addict.
    Lastly, people here as well as Marty seemed proud he was part of the team that hassled the IRS to the point of giving up and making the pay taxes. Just what the world needed another tax exempt million dollar corporation taking away money from those in need for tax breaks for the likes of Mscavigde and Cruise. Well played there Marty.
    I watched the insane Squirrel Busting lady in her poncho yelling….”oh look, it is all about Marty”….and all could think of is that his wife is an example of unconditional love and I hope for her sake she never has to hear the word Scientology uttered again.

  • RMycroft

    Naturally Scientology put up a smear site June 10th: scientologistsatwar.com scientologistsatwar.net scientologistsatwar.org

  • Erica

    I really enjoyed this documentary and continue to be completely fascinated with this “religion”. I can’t read enough about it! What I don’t understand are the independents, as a group they seem opposite of all that is evil and wrong with the cult but how can you subscribe to this way of thinking without believing in L.R.H? Is it that they just believe that it works (something I have zero experience with) or do they truly believe in L.R.H’s teachings? I can’t reconcile this, he appears to be a man of zero integrity along with a whole lot of other unflattering uncharactaristics. I don’t have a problem with anyone practicing their beliefs as long as it doesn’t hurt people, I just can’t understand how after all this time people still believe he was anything but a narcissistic liar, with a whole host of personal problems.

  • Mitch Brillon

    I do not understand why some people are in total agreement with the fact that DM is an SP but are still in admiration with LRH. He did put all of this farce together, there is a lot of very disturbing truths about Ron Hubbard on the internet too. Lets not confront just half the scene… Also, if Ron was soooo intelligent and able to predict the future with his OT powers, why did he not see DM, what was going to happen with the Church and all the people being hurt. Why, like Tom Cruise, was he not able to marry the right woman or predict the suicide of his own son and prevent that?. I keep asking these questions and for some interesting reasons, I can’t seem to get intelligent answers. If our true intentions are to help people by making the truth, we have to be able to confront the truth ourselves as beings. LRH and DM are both the same type of beings. SPs. There is no need for any independent Scientology Organization. There is a need for organizationsssss spreading the truth and the truth HAS NO NAME and does not belong to any particular group. is there things in “scientology” that works – YES! it is not Scientology – it is simply the Truth – lets not put a name on something that can’t be owned by anyone and no organization as the fact is that it belongs to everyone. Trying to do so is already a ‘blasphemy”.

  • eljeran

    If scientology is such a respectable religion then why do they need squirrel busters? Why is it such a problem if a person leaves the church?

  • eljeran

    I would have shot them all in the face.

  • Angelina Jullie

    I actually found this blog and that is amazing thing I enjoy reading this easy to understand stuff. Keep it up.

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