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GARCIAS RESPOND TO SCIENTOLOGY: YOU’RE A BIG RIPOFF

Marty Rathbun in his RTC days

Marty Rathbun in his RTC days

On Monday evening, Luis and Rocio Garcia filed more than a dozen documents with the court in their federal fraud lawsuit against the Church of Scientology. There’s a lot of really interesting stuff in them, including declarations by Luis Garcia and others, as well as current price lists and bills from Scientology’s private cruise ship, the Freewinds.

The Garcias are responding to the church’s previous request that federal judge James Whittemore dismiss the lawsuit and compel the Garcias to participate in Scientology’s internal arbitration procedures. This has been a successful strategy for the church in the past when ex-members have sued for the return of money they put on account for services they never received.

Now, the Garcias are making the case that Scientology’s arbitration scheme is inherently unfair, and its refund policies are fraudulent. And they’re doing it through a series of declarations by longtime former church members and officials, including the man who was once the second-highest-ranking executive in the organization, Mark “Marty” Rathbun.

Rathbun says he was in a particularly good position to understand Scientology’s current policy about ex-members asking for donations. And that’s because he helped write it, he says — and on the instructions of Scientology leader David Miscavige intentionally designed a system that would make a refund all but impossible.

The arbitration clause contained in the Enrollment Agreement was specifically included by staff and counsel in compliance with David Miscavige’s orders that we make it as difficult as possible for people to obtain refunds while also acting as if we did not cancel or undermine Founder L. Ron Hubbard’s original refund policy….Anyone who requests a refund is by definition, “guilty” in the eyes of Scientologists in good standing, no matter what the issue, especially when that person is in conflict with any Scientologist, and even more so the church itself. So, when I worked with others in the church to require that all members of any “arbitration” panel be members in good standing with the church of Scientology, by definition, we obviated the entire “arbitration” process altogether: There is simply nothing for a Scientologist in good standing to arbitrate when dealing with someone requesting a refund.

Rathbun and the others repeatedly make the same point: If a Scientologist asks for a refund, he is automatically excommunicated and considered a “Suppressive Person.” All church members in good standing must then “disconnect” from that “SP” so that they are completely shunned by the organization. An SP then cannot go through the proper channels to get a refund, and any arbitration panel made up of current church members would never award an SP a refund. The church’s internal arbitration and refund policies, in other words, are a sham.

Here’s the briefing from the Garcia side. We’re looking forward to opinions about it from the numerous attorneys in our commenting community…

 
Garcia response to church motion to compel arbitration

Garcia Response to Compel Arbitration

 
We asked our attorney Scott Pilutik to give us his thoughts on the briefing…

This is an extremely well argued and written response to Scientology’s blathering, obfuscating motion, and methodically underscores the unfairness at the core of Scientology’s arbitration process, listing the myriad ways it fails as unconscionable. Namely… (a) the language purportedly obligating the Garcias to Scientology is so broad as to be meaningless (covering “any dispute, claim, or controversy”); (b) were non-negotiable prerequisites to receiving Scientology services (a contract of “adhesion”); (c) its governing rules and procedures of the arbitration are unpublished and mysterious; (d) the parties were at all times unequal bargainers given the nature of the relationship; and finally and most interestingly, (e) the arbitration procedure is an illusory sham because once a former parishioner is declared suppressive, fairness toward that person becomes both doctrinally and practically impossible. Impressively, a host of declarations are provided to bolster the point of just how illusory the process is in practice for anyone declared suppressive.

I won’t belabor how much better the above argument is than Scientology’s (seriously, read the whole thing because it’s awesome) but it’s worth recalling what Scientology is arguing, because it is instructive, I believe, as to how Scientology will Reply to the Garcias’ Response.

I concede in advance that this is not easy to wrap one’s head around, but Scientology’s argument was largely focused on the notion that a civil court cannot decide this dispute because, per the First Amendment, civil courts must abstain from deciding religious disputes. However, Scientology is submitting religious doctrine in support of that argument (e.g., policy letter 13 March 1996, “Return of Donations,” et al.) In other words, Scientology suggests, the court cannot decide religious disputes but it should adopt our religious doctrine to help it decide as much. See the problem?

In its endless quest to have its cake and eat it too, Scientology may have inadvertently opened a door it will now regret opening, because when it moves to strike the various declarations submitted in support of the Garcias’ Response (which I fully expect them to do) Scientology will simultaneously argue (among many arguments) that judicial consideration of those declarations is improper to the extent they necessitate that the court improperly interpret religious doctrine. Deeper down the religious dispute meta-rabbit hole we go. How can the court justify considering the religious doctrine submitted by Party A but setting aside that submitted by Party B? If confronted as to this incongruity, Scientology might argue, well, the policies we submitted are necessarily on point to the subject of donations, arbitration, etc. (And by the way the Garcias are cavorting with lying suppressives.)

But for the court, I imagine this is likely one too many hypocrisies to contend with. Far safer to just examine the arbitration process, or more accurately, dearth of process, and find it unconscionable.

 
And now the remarkable declarations…

 
Declaration of Mark “Marty” Rathbun

Mark Rathbun Declaration, Garcia Lawsuit

 
Declaration of Luis Garcia

Luis explains that according to the price lists he was using, as a longtime Scientologist, he expected that he could get a refund on money he put on account but then did not use for services.

Luis Garcia Declaration

 
Declaration of Randall Wise

The Church of Scientology declared me a Suppressive Person because I disagreed with some of the Church’s actions against their members…I can unequivocally state from my many years of experience with the Church and members of the Church that it would be impossible to get an impartial result from an arbitration that was being administered by the Church and adjudicated by members “in good standing.”

Randall Wise Declaration

 
Declaration of Christie Collbran

The practice of a Scientologist being forced to end all communication with a suppressive person, or person suspected of being suppressive, is typically referred to as “disconnection.” Despite what representations may be made by Scientologists to non-Scientologists regarding the existence or non-existence of this practice, I am intimately aware that it is a belief and practice among Scientologists that is deeply rooted in church history and dogma, and which continues to this day. Having been declared a suppressive person, I have personal experience with the policy and practice of disconnection to wit…After leaving the Sea Organization, and being declared by the church a suppressive person, my father, mother, brother and sister have all severed all forms of communication with me….I now have a child, their grandchild, whom they have never met. I even travelled to their home in Los Angeles, on two occasions, unable to see them either time…

Christie Collbran Declaration

 
Declaration of Dan Koon

Based upon my intimate and extensive knowledge of church policies by virtue of being a studied parishioner and auditor for the church, as well as my personal experiences with family and friends who remain Scientologists, no declared suppressive person can ever receive a fair or unbiased arbitration before a board of Scientologists in good standing pursuant to church doctrine and practice.

Dan Koon Declaration

 
Declaration of Haydn James

In all my years of working for the church, I have never witnessed or heard of an arbitration of this kind ever taking place anywhere in the world.

Haydn James Declaration

 
Declaration of Bert Schippers

My stepson, also a Scientologist, once departed the church and was declared a suppressive person in 2007. After his declaration, while in attendance at a church in Los Angeles, I was pulled into a meeting with a church ethics officer who showed me my stepson’s “declare” order. The officer also solicited my agreement to end all communication with my stepson, indicating that I would be ineligible for services at said church if I failed to do so.

Bert Schippers Declaration

 
Declaration of Karry Campbell

I know with certainty that the practice of disconnection does exist and its practice is enforced by Church of Scientology staff members on parishioners and other staff members. No member of the church of Scientology in good standing could be counted on to be impartial in any arbitration involving someone who has been declared a Suppressive Person.

Karry Campbell Declaration

 
Declaration of Scott Campbell

I have personally experienced disconnection from my in-laws. It is stressful for my wife and me, and particularly difficult for our children as their grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins on my wife’s side of the family have cut off all communication with us…Based on my extensive experience, I believe members of the Church of Scientology in good standing cannot render fair and just arbitration for anyone who has been declared a suppressive person or disconnection from by any other member of the church in good standing.

Scott Campbell Declaration

 
Hey, a 2001 price list!

And what a bargain some of these courses are!

Scientology 2001 Price List

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on April 22, 2013 at 21:00

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  • The Garcias Rock! We’ve got your backs!

  • John P.

    It is particularly interesting that the Garcias were able to append a copy of their SP declaration to their affidavit, It is probably for exactly this reason that the cult is so pathological about not giving people a copy of their declarations — that it proves that the refund scheme is basically a lie since there is no way to get your money back if the order goes out that the Garcias may only talk to the “International Justice Chief,” who undoubtedly doesn’t have anything to do with issuing refunds. It certainly would seem like there is enough in these two declarations to make a credible argument against remanding the case to internal arbitration. Some very nice lawyering by Babbitt & Co.

    • Spackle Motion

      Agreed. I was surprised to see their SP Declare and I wonder how they got it.

      These are some delicious dox.

      • DodoTheLaser

        It isn’t that hard in the last 2 years or so, despite “church’ refusal to provide a copy..
        I know 2 people who were secretly offered theirs by people who still in.

        Thanks to the folks under the radar.

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      In happier and better news, COB RTC David Miscavige today announced that Flag Land Base will be the home to a brand new Ferris Wheel.

      Any poor child will be able to ride the new Scientology Ferris Wheel for free and as many times as they wish.

      Please donate today to help make the Scientology Ferris Wheel a reality for poor children.

      http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a563/OTVIIIisGrrr8/ferris2Bwheel2Bpic_zpsa49a097b.jpg

      • DodoTheLaser

        Thank you, COB!!! Oh, look!

        [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/x7k7n.jpg[/IMG]

      • Spackle Motion

        I just went through your photobucket library, and you should tell your dear leader that he’s looking awfully rough in recent photographs. Maybe use some of your stupendified sooper powers and magically get him some decent shoopers?

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          Even Photoshop is of little help these days, this as was made evident during COB’s recent speech in which he opened Ideal Org Greyhound, an innovative new concept whereby small Ideal Orgs are placed in kiosks inside of Greyhound bus stations.

          http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a563/OTVIIIisGrrr8/DMIO_zps00217297.jpg

          • Sherbet

            Where IS that Greyhound Org, Your Gr8ness? Seems to have an abundance of security around. I’m ever watchful of cob’s safety.

          • Captain Howdy

            Ideal Org Greyhound is a brilliant idea! Just think of all the teen runaways, transients and pimps Cofs will be able to route straight up the lines into the S.O. The pimps will make great Ethics Officers.

            • Sherbet

              Ideal Org Port-a-Potty is cob’s next initiative.

            • Captain Howdy

              Now that’s an idea I could get behind..considering the scarcity of public restrooms in the Boston metro area.

      • Michael Jackson already tried that, it didn’t end well.

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          COB RTC David Miscavige only wants poor children for the Sea Org.

          Once in the Sea Org he will teach them the fine arts of Scientology money extraction, spying, and taking files from wherever files need to be taken.

          COB acts out of a Fagin valence and not an MJ valence.

          Indeed, when Lisa Marie Presley was married to Michael, COB ordered her to end the recruitment cycle. Reason: COB discovered that MJ had secretly appointed himself Sea Org Fleet Admiral and was planning a coup against COB.

          A quiet but ferrous war was waged in Hollywood in which COB defeated MJ’s attempted takeover of the Church of Scientology.

          COB to this day resents the fact that Michael Jackson always had much better uniform designers than COB could get. Again, all of the pie-faced idiots in RTC were of no help at all and failed COB once again. Look at this! COB wants this type of uniform:

          http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a563/OTVIIIisGrrr8/Michael-Jackson-in-Gieves-Hawkes_zps3f3d78eb.jpg

      • Observer

        Diabolically clever! Once the kids are strapped in and up in the air the Ferris wheel will be stopped and the kids held until their parents can come up with a “donation” sufficient to obtain their release. That COB, always thinking.

        • Poison Ivy

          Knowing some Scientology parents and what the cult does to their maternal/paternal instincts, those poor kids may be up there a long, long time.

        • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

          Observer, poor children’s parents have no money and so they will need to sign their children over to the Sea Org.

          The basic lesson here is this: The price of admission to any of Scientology’s various thrill rides or attractive menaces is your life + one billion years.

          Thank you.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        What? Is Scientology trying to turn Clearwater into a damn circus?

        Oh nevermind….It already did that, now didn’t it.

        • Observer
        • elar aitch

          requesting evil clown shoop of Davey

          • BuryTheNuts2

            NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

            • FistOfXenu

              YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!

            • Observer

              Aw, come on … it’s too good an opportunity to pass up

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Ok, I need to look the painted freaks in the face and suck it up!

          • Observer

            I can, but not till I get off work.

          • Observer

            Since the pic won’t show up in its own post, I’ll try the direct reply approach. Stupid Disqus.

            • Captain Howdy

              Outstanding! Bury’s gonna go nuts when she gets a gander at that. Hee-hee

            • FistOfXenu

              Suddenly makes me think of what would happen if you morph DM’s face into Jack Nicholson’s face with his Joker make up on. Somehow that’s appropriate.

            • Sherbet

              I’m also seeing a hint of Carrot Top. And that’s not a good thing.

            • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

              NO OBSERVER NO!

              How dare you criminally joke and degrade that COB RTC David Miscavige is an evil clown!

              This is yet another attack on the Scientology religion by agents of Big Pharma!

            • Captain Howdy

              Hee-Haw… COB = Clown On Board

            • Observer

              If the clown shoe fits, and in this case it does …

        • RMycroft

          Well, they tried…

          Scientology circus could lead to citation February 13, 1987, St. Petersburg Times

          City Manager Tony Shoemaker met with Church of Scientology attorney Paul Johnson Thursday afternoon to discuss the church’s plans to sponsor a circus Saturday without obtaining an occupational license. Pink fliers being circulated by the church say a circus on its property across from Coachman Park will include elephant rides, horses, big cats and clowns. City officials say the church needs an occupational license, signed by the City Commission, to hold such an event. Because the commission doesn’t meet before Saturday, the church couldn’t get a license even if it sought one. So far, it hasn’t. “If they proceed with the circus, we will in fact cite them,” Shoemaker said Thursday. The citation would require the group to go before the city’s code enforcement board. If found in violation, the organizers could be fined up to $250. That’s cheaper than the $375 the church would have to pay to get an occupational license.

          License = definitely $375/day.
          Fine = probably $250/day.
          Hmm, tricky math there…

          • Missionary Kid

            Actually, a circus would probably be there 3 days: 1 to set up 1 to perform and 1 to tear down & move out. I think the fine would be closer to $750.

            • RMycroft

              But they would probably need the license for three days too. (And those circuses are masters of the quick setup and tear down. They can’t afford to bookend a one day show with two non-earning days.)

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_8VHvN3IJw

            • Missionary Kid

              Good point. I’d be interested in finding out what the result was.

  • Sherbet

    That isn’t a refund process. It’s a Mobius strip

    • elar aitch

      nice phrase for an opening argument

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Big time!

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Here ya go.

        • Sherbet

          Makes perfect sense to me, Bury. Scns in good standing can request a refund and enter arbitration. If a scn requests a refund, he’s no longer a scn in good standing and is prohibited from arbitration. And ’round and ’round we go.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Now you got me humming Joni Mitchell’s Circle Game….

            • Sherbet

              It will keep your mind off clowns.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Not really….I am at work….I am surrounded by Clowns

            • Sherbet

              Aren’t we all…

            • FistOfXenu

              No it won’t. Circle Game. Merry go round. Fair grounds. Clowns. Boom.

            • Sherbet

              Why do you want to torture Bury?

            • Observer

              He’s Xenu. ‘Nuff said.

            • FistOfXenu

              Hang on. I don’t want to torture BTN. I was just trying to say Circle Game won’t protect her from thinking about clowns. She needs something else. That’s all I’m saying.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’d rather the Circle Game was a circular shooting gallery for Co$.

        • Missionary Kid

          Sorry, but, as good as your illustration is, it’s a ring, not a moebus strip.

      • RMycroft
        • Sherbet

          Try the door next to the Oiliness Table.

        • FistOfXenu

          It’s in a cellar. With no lights. Or stairs. In a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

    • FLUNK_101

      I love your Möbius strip analogy. It’s all about collecting money and keeping it.
      An SP is someone who poses threat to or gets in the way of their efforts to collect (and keep) the money.
      Thanks Tony for posting the Scientology 2001 Price List for services. A price list may not be as sensational as a death at Narconon, fair game or a heart breaking disconnection. But, to me, it tells the whole story.

  • Team Garcia!

  • richelieu jr

    This once again reminds me if the way Raymond of Toulouse was treated after being excommunicated by the Catholic church. He appealed directly to Innocent III, Pope, who declared that his subalterns permit a hearing as to Raymond’s complaints that he had fulfilled the requirements to have his excommunication lifted…

    This was begrudgingly done but the hearing was held inside a church he could not enter (alternate versions say he was held in a state where he was allowed oto be present, yet not permitted to actually speak..)

    At any rate, an elaborate charade to give the air of fairness whilst the cards are totally stacked against the plaintiff…

  • GO GO GARCIAS!!

  • LisaIsRemembered

    Hopefully another nail in the coffin of the cult!

    • Hopefully the first shovel of earth.

      • DodoTheLaser

        On the Earth Day.

      • Where can we rent a bulldozer?

        • Pinkhammer

          I’m In!!!
          Recent lurker, Never-in with a good friend who was on staff for about 10 years. He actually blew 15 years ago but last year WENT BACK!!!!

          • Sherbet

            Are you serious, Pink?? Why on earth would he do that??

            • Pinkhammer

              Well that’s the Million-Dollar question, isn’t it?! Of course, he won’t talk much about any of it, other than to spout the rehearsed party lines. I believe he only blew because he wanted to have children so badly, but because he learned to be such a good “communicator” while he was in, he’s never managed to make a serious relationship work. (No sane girl would go near a $cion center anyway!)He still thinks the ‘tech’ will fix him, so he’s back in and found a $cion girl to marry – all of his problems solved! At least he’s only public for now…

            • Sherbet

              What a shame, Pink. It’s an alcoholic who begins drinking again, a druggie who uses again, a former smoker who picks up a cigarette again. Let the slippery slide commence.

            • Maybe they’ll both get lucky and leave for good together. I like to believe in happy endings.

            • Pinkhammer

              Let’s hope so!

          • Good Lord, why would he do that?

            • Pinkhammer

              He even managed to get a bachelor’s degree and an MBA while he was out!!! Unfortunately Co$ broke his ability to relate to people in the real world and that’s what he so desperately needs and wants. I think he believed the line that it’s not working because he did it wrong…

  • Chocolate Velvet

    It’s snowing like mad here in Boulder right now, but I feel all warm and sunny seeing these dox! Thank you for getting them to us hot off the docket, Tony. The Garcias and their attorneys are right on target with this strategy. Can’t wait for the next volley!

  • Observer

    I predict a sleepless night for The Littlest Ecclesiastical Leader. The only question is will it be passed in a drunken rage, a drunken stupor, or some combination of both? Run, Lou, run!

  • Jgg2012

    Tony, I don’t think that the arbitration clause applies to torts (fraud, misrepresentation), just to contracts. I know there was an earlier case (Halverson) where the contract had to be arbitrated, Also, the Cult has pre-adjudicated the matter by declaring them SP and preventing any fair arbitration, so any contract between them would not be performable.

    • TonyOrtega

      I’m not a lawyer, jgg. I only know that the Schippers-Holverson case was in a state court and yes, the judge did agree with the church that they had to go to arbitration. And I think that’s part of the reason the Garcias dumped their state action and instead filed this fraud lawsuit in federal court. Then, as we reported previously, the church tried the same strategy and asked that it go to their internal arbitration instead. This is the Garcias’ answer to that. Otherwise, I don’t know what you’re saying to me.

      • Spackle Motion

        If I’m reading this correctly, he’s saying that a tort (such as fraud and misrepresentation) by itself does not have an arbitration clause (torts are a cause of action which can, in the right circumstances, lead to a contract being unenforceable), and that the second someone is declared an SP, this makes the arbitration clause and possibly the entire contract invalid.

  • DeElizabethan

    This is fantastic. Go Garcias!
    Also thank you Randall Wise for helping and hope you get your money too, plus.

  • Espiando

    Oh, please, please, please, let one of the Scino lawyers use the words “bitter defrocked apostates” in front of the judge. That’ll go over well.

    Say what you will about the Indies, but sometimes their crusade against Miscavige pays dividends. Since we’re all rooting for the Garcias anyway, let’s hope that they not only win, but that this case is enough to set a general precedent so that no one else can get ripped off by the refund scheme. Marty’s declaration alone might be enough to do that.

    • Spackle Motion

      I want to see the fireworks if this ever gets to trial (probably won’t, but settling will create a problem for any/all ex-Scientologists that want their “donations” back). If this ever gets to trial, then we get to have a parade of witnesses giving great testimony a-la Debbie Cook. And, we’ll get to see Scientologists lie under oath! Double the fun.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Either way….We all win!

    • Poison Ivy

      I believe the indies sincerely want these abuses to end, for all their friends and families still inside. Still puzzled about why they cling to the “tech” and the defense of one of the biggest conmen who ever lived, LRH.

      • FistOfXenu

        They’re still stuck in step 3. They don’t see that Hubbard created the abuse.

        • SciWatcher

          Which is baffling, because there is evidence of this in the Hubbard policy letters that are included as exhibits.

          • FistOfXenu

            Their attention is on just 1 thing. It’s okay, we can hope they’ll get it eventually.

  • aquaclara

    Wow! Nice job, Garcias and Babbitt & Co. Applause, applause to the support team, including Christie, Marty and everyone else! Wishing you all the very best….

    • DodoTheLaser

      Same here!

  • sizzle8

    It will be interesting to get a list of how many exes have requested a refund, have had an “arbitration” and received a refund – all in a timely manner. I bet it’s zero.

  • Cymboli Starsong

    Hilarious. CO$ brought a butter knife to a gun fight. The garcias brought a bazooka.

  • 1subgenius

    It has hit the fan.

    • FistOfXenu

      But DM just declared that fan SP. No refund for him!

  • Any suggestion that Scientology lawyers are required to spend an hour on the Oiliness Table before appearing in court may well be apocryphal and their slipperiness could have an entirely different origin.

    Andrew

  • Spackle Motion

    Could the progression of this lawsuit be the reason why wee Davey is in hiding? I suspect that he’s dodging process servers somewhere in international waters.

    • The ‘Freewinds’ is currently sailing south-west at 17.1 knots heading towards Willemstad in Curaçao,

      Current position at 2314 ET: N12°01’17.78″, W068°41’51.05″

      The air temperature is 26 °C with a light westerly at 17 km/h and the sea is calm.

      Andrew

      • sugarplumfairy

        I can almost feel the sea breeze..

        • Ze Moo

          with a slight tang of asbestos….

          • FistOfXenu

            And scotch

  • I see no mention in these filings of the IRS ruling that gave the cult the status of a tax excempt religion. Didn’t it specifically state that giving refunds was an essential element in the church maintaining its tax-exempt status? Something about fees are only “donations” and not a quid pro quo payment if refunds are available?

    • Still_On_Your_Side

      The church brought up the IRS agreement in their motions to compel arbitration. It was invoked for the purpose of arguing that the Garcia’s were on notice about arbitration since their membership agreement included an arbitration clause and per the IRS agreement, all of the various organizations were affiliated, so what applied to one, applied to all. Aside fom being a very weak argument, by invoking the IRS agreement, they have now made it part of the case, which I am sure will make Miscavige very happy.

      • jensting

        I understand David “he is NOt insane!” had something to do with the IRS settlement, so I guess he would be an excellent person to explain this to the court. In the courtroom. Under oath.

        • Still_On_Your_Side

          Yes, and I understand that he is very upset that he has not gotten a chance to testify in the last 10,000 cases and is very excited about his pending invitation, er, subpoena.

          • aquaclara

            funny!

      • The Church introduced the IRS agreement into the case? What unbelievable arrogance!

  • The Scientology movement is risking a lot.

    They likely will lose the case!

    Priorly, they didn’t want to risk losing such a case.

    Now it looks like if they don’t settle, they will lose.

    Priorly, they rightly buckled.

    Hubbard said only quack operations don’t offer refunds.

    So Miscavige is truly violating Hubbard’s actual allowed practice of allowing refunds, so as NOT to be like psychiatry that doesn’t give refunds.

    Misavige, thus, is trying to be like groups that don’t give refunds, and which are quacks.

    I don’t think being tripped up by Hubbard’s faulty logic is something anyone deserves though.

    So, I hope Scientology just loses.

    If they don’t give refunds and repayments per the Hubbard policies, then they are violating their scriptures by Hubbard.

    During his life, Hubbard definitely allowed the movement to give refunds and repayments.

    So, another affadavit they should have added, was an affadavit from a dozen or more ex members who HAVE gotten their refunds and repayments.

    Possibly, the case, if it goes to trial, that the lawyers should call as witnesses, people who have gotten repayments and refunds!

    And the lawyer nail down how inconsistent current Scientology is, in this case!

    • DeElizabethan

      I’m not sure it would help, but who knows. I received a small refund, after writing a letter, for money on account left over in ’87. It was small, under $400 but I was did not want them to have it. Of course there’s a story with it, but I did not go through any procedures, (and never contacted afterward till my mate died) and was met outside Flag by 2 men at front door. Before they handed me the check, regurgitated that I would “lose my eternity”. I told them I wasn’t worried about it.

      • DodoTheLaser

        “Before they handed me the check, regurgitated that I would “lose my eternity”. I told them I wasn’t worried about it.”

        🙂 Love you, De! 🙂

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Good for you.

        Years ago I had to take an employer to Small Claims Court to get paid for services rendered. After the judgement (in my favor), I contacted them to make arrangements. They began lamely berating me for not being more trusting and not working with them and blah blah blah. Finally, I said, “Look, it’s not the principle of the thing. I just want my money.”

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        $400 or $40,000,000, anyone accepting a refund loses their Eternity.

        Worse, all refunds stop us from building the Scientology Ferris Wheel for poor children.

        Anyone asking for a refund obviously hates poor children!

        • DodoTheLaser

          I once donated $75 to IAS at the fundraising event (I really wanted to go home).
          I don’t want them back though, I want COB show us the Ferris Wheel for poor children.

          When is the opening?

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Thank for the donation to the Ferris Wheel for poor children.

            The Ferris Wheel for poor children will be open as soon as the $190,000,000 we need for it is raised.

            • DodoTheLaser

              Makes sense. Thanks. The room seems a lot brighter now.

              Taking a walk, brb.

            • DeElizabethan

              But according to records you already got $380,000,000, wtf? Standard Procedure?

            • Exterrier

              Problem is that the kiddies are not allowed off it til they sign a billion year contract.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Ahhh.. What an eggggcellent registrar you’d make..

            • Sherbet

              Plus, as the kiddies go around, somebody below collects all the change that falls out of their pockets.

        • Bella Legosi

          Yep Scientology stole the Wheel of Morality from Animaniacs……..thanks for confirming OT8!

        • DeElizabethan

          Giving anyone a refund with no declares or hassle obviously wants to hide or protect something. A quick dismissal leaves no excuse to retaliate back then – before the ferris wheel BS.

  • Yes, I can see the future….. the demise of the cult of scientology wasn’t a dramatic implosion but a never ending suck on it’s hidden coffers…. we see a 400 lb Kirstie Alley being wheeled into Judge Judy’s courtroom claiming $15k in unused auditing fees. The accused is an actual human/Ronbot semblance of a person who has a bluetooth headset hardwired to a tape machine playing Miscavige’s greatest sermons on a loop

    • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

      media_lush, you are a horribly degraded being and you will die alone and in the dark. How dare you mock up such a dire fate for Mankind’s only hope of salvation!

      • DodoTheLaser

        Oh look: “Finally won the court case! We are innocent, we are back and we are not a cult!”

        Read more: http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a475335/gta-5-news-expected-with-scientology-spoof-revival.html#ixzz2RGq8rJD0

        • FistOfXenu

          I’ve decided I want to join the Epsilon Program. Hip electronic music plus this:
          “V. Everyone is related to everyone else, except for people with red hair – fact!”

          Hear that? I’m not related to Ron! Yeehaa!

      • PreferToBeAnon2

        I wish we could put Media_Lush and OTVIIIisGrrr8 on the same stage and watch them go at it! Now that would be theater! No refunds requested for that show…

      • InTheNameOfXenu

        Dying alone in the dark is heaven compared to being DM’s bitch.

    • sugarplumfairy

      lol.. Yah, but where’s Shelley? For that matter, where’s Sweeney???

      • BuryTheNuts2

        He’s not they’re?

    • SciWatcher

      Hahahahaha! My favorite bit: ‘Travolta has never been happier and recently married the anti-scientologist protestor known as “The Angry Gay Pope”‘

    • Stephen Shrader

      Thanks for this; I may steal some of it for my schtick on cults. Consider yourself bookmarked.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    We in RTC wish to explain the Church of Scientology’s widely misunderstood refund policy:

    1. The demand for a refund comes from a wholetrack implant dated at 871,906,501,266,030,422 years ago.

    2. The “Refund Implant” turns on upon viewing the internet and reading false data and lies about the Church of Scientology and COB David Miscavige.

    3. The return of monies is not the actual the issue in the Refund Implant. The real issue is that the thetan has evil purposes to destroy the Church of Scientology and COB David Miscavige.

    4. Hence, the Church’s demand that the Scientologist submit to arbitration is simply COB’s way of putting that Scientologist into session in order to blow them five thousand feet out of their head.

    5. Once fully exteriorized, the Scientologist can cognite that he or she mocked up their evil purposes to destroy the Church of Scientology and COB David Miscavige.

    6. Failing such a cognition, the arbitration panel will lock the Scientologist requesting a refund up in the Introspection Rundown and run them to full full and permanent exteriorization.

    7. The Church of Scientology’s dynamic principle of existence is Survive!

    8. The use of any other refund technology will result in permanent and irreversible damage to the Church of Scientology’s bank account, thus harming COB’s ability to open the Ideal Orgs that are so vital to clearing this sector of the galaxy. Therefore, for the Church to give any refund is a contra-survival action that is experienced as Suppression by all Scientologists.

    9. For all of the above reasons, we in the Church of Scientology are obligated by our scriptures to Fair Game all SP’s who dare to ever ask us for a refund.

    Consider yourself warned.

    Thank you.

    • DodoTheLaser

      COB should open the Super Power (SP) Building ASAP!
      Only SP Rundown can handle the attack of 9,000 Garcias!

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        DodoTheLaser: COB just announced that the Super Power building will not be opened until the new Scientology Ferris Wheel for poor children is funded and built.

        COB is giving poor children his highest priority.

        Even Project Mouse Table will wait until the Scientology Ferris Wheel for poor children is funded and built.

        This shows just how much COB cares.

        • DodoTheLaser

          [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/x7k7n.jpg[/IMG]

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Must have Tee-shirt!

            • monkeyknickers

              God me too.

        • Captain Howdy

          So now Chairman of the Board has transformed into Captain of Benevolence?

          • Missionary Kid

            COB has always been Captain of Benevolence, for him.

            • FistOfXenu

              Yeah, a real legend in his own lunacy.

          • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

            Actually, it’s Fleet Admiral Benevolence

            • Captain Howdy

              So now D.M is FAB?

        • elar aitch

          I’m so glad the mouse table hasn’t been forgotten.

        • Jgg2012

          OT8, wait til the IRS hears about this.

        • Captain Howdy

          OTVIIIisGrrr8!, I thought CofS already had a Ferris Wheel? It can be seen in the infamous “Scientology Crazy Followers” video. You know the one where Mark Bunker quips at the end “Have fun on the Ferris Wheel!”? Is COB selling the marks a used Ferris Wheel?

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…full and permanent exteriorization…”

      sounds expensive..

      • Bella Legosi

        so a permanent psychotic break you PAY for? No thanks!

      • grundoon

        Under $5 for two .45 caliber rounds.

    • Artoo45

      That’s all straight up and vertical-like.

    • 1subgenius

      COB is a business mastermind.
      He should start an insurance company.
      You would have complete coverage except there’s an exclusion if you have a claim.

      • Missionary Kid

        You’ve got the Co$ business model down pat.

        • 1subgenius

          Whenever I hear the phrase “down pat” I flash back to a Nixon joke.

          • Missionary Kid

            Good one.

            For those of you too young to remember, Nixon’s wife was known as Pat.
            Nixon said, “I can’t stand Pat.” then made the mistake of pausing before continuing his speech.

            • 1subgenius

              The one I was referring to had to do with Nixon complaining about his sex life, and the inability to get it down Pat.

            • Missionary Kid

              Ohhh! That’s another good one.

            • 1subgenius

              I miss Nixon. What a freak.

            • Missionary Kid

              I don’t miss him. While he is responsible for signing some of the best legislation for the environment and for the disabled, his political tactics were similar to LRHs and DMs.

              His first political campaign, against Helen Gahagan Douglas, was for years cited as one of the dirtiest in California history.

              While he took the necessary step of opening up relations with Communist China, he also set the stage for our present problems with the country because he chose to view the country with rose colored glasses.

            • FistOfXenu

              Nixon. No thanks.

            • Bella Legosi

              I am still trying to figure out why any man or woman or beast would have found Nixon attractive! Although, Nixon didn’t sit on the shitter and talk to aids or talk about how big his “Johnson” was, or *gags* whipped it out! And I am perfectly fine without that visualization thank you lol

            • Missionary Kid

              You obviously weren’t of the same political persuasion.

              Your comment brought to mind the song that first brought Carol Burnett to Prominence: I Made a Fool of Myself over John Foster Dulles.

            • Bella Legosi

              YES…I was introduced to the greatness of Carol by my Uncle. He is the reason I know half of the “old” shows. MASH, Jack Benny, Burns and Allen, Leave It to Beaver, Carol Burnett Show, Mommas Family, I could go on I love Carol Burnett and that song.

              My politics are best described to be independent. There is no party that really suits my political persuasion. But, I found out because I was listed as an independent I couldn’t cast a vote for Kerry to get GW outta office, so for a time I went democrat (and I have reservations about that because they used to be some racist evil bastards back in the day before the Republicans replaced them on being some of the biggest douches on the planet)

            • Missionary Kid

              Both the Biography Channel and PBS (In a show about The Comediennes in the series called The Pioneers of Television) gave significant time to covering Carol.

              You need to realize that when the Republicans adopted the Southern Strategy, the Dixiecrats eventually all changed parties. Richard Nixon was a key part of it.

            • Bella Legosi

              As of late I have been exposed to the uaual history and sentiment towards Nixon. You know, he was just as bad or worse then Johnson, a criminal, paranoid, well everything Hunter S. Thompson said pretty much. I can’t think of one time in any history class that we actually got to Johnson or Nixon. All my school days in history all ended pretty much with WW2. So, I am not as knowledgeable about what they actually really did for us at the moment. But I have been trying to work on this by reading non biased books or the congressional record. It’s daunting but worth it. I have to thank Bunkerites for book suggestions! I am gonna be swamped but I have sleeping issues as it is so I will have something good to read at night!

            • Missionary Kid

              While Johnson ratcheted up our involvement in Vietnam, he was able to do what Kennedy could never do: get the Civil Rights Act through Congress. That piece of legislation, while being poo-poo’ed by conservatives, brought about profound changes in our society that are bearing fruit now.

              Johnson was able to do it because not only was he a Southerner, but because he knew where all the bodies were buried, politically, and he knew how to arm twist and horse trade.

              I can remember that there was a near riot at my high school just over the rumor that blacks might attend. This was in California. Not too long before, blacks had to be out of Glendale, CA by dark.

              Nixon was a brilliant politician, but he had one huge blind spot: himself. The Watergate break-in was totally unnecessary. He had the election won. It turns out that Deep Throat was the second in command at the FBI, and he hated that Nixon was trying to politicize it, so he pointed Woodward and Bernstein in the right direction.

              The Democrats had dirty tricksters, but

              Nix

            • FistOfXenu

              Yup. Wonder if the pick up line he used on Pat was that smooth.

            • Missionary Kid

              According to her bio, they met when they were cast together in a play in Whittier. He’d just graduated from Duke Law School, and she’d started teaching. He asked her to marry him the first time they went out. According to her, he was a lot of fun.

            • Bush Sr. once uttered this immortal line: “Harry Truman said that if you want a friend in Washington, you should get a dog, but I don’t have to, because I have Barbara.”

            • Missionary Kid

              That was unusual for Sr. Jr. is an endless source of malapropisms.

            • monkeyknickers

              I want that to be true. Is it? Did he really say that? While I’m here, a fave:

              “Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs
              aren’t able to practice their love with women all across this country.”

              LOVE THAT.

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        You’re hired 1subgenius! Go start that insurance company and run it! Our Mr. Spencer will contact you with details on where to send the profits.

        • 1subgenius

          Roger that. Stand by.

    • Concerns_of_a_Father

      Awesome!

    • RMycroft

      Are you a staff member? If so, by policy, we can’t trust anything you say. (We can’t even trust LRH!)

      http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/RogerRamdrive/SPD13March1996b_zps6a1ceefa.jpg:original

    • InTheNameOfXenu

      I’m shaking in my boots, man. Seriously…Stephen Colbert, are you OTVIIIisGrrr8?

      • 1subgenius

        Nice analogy.

    • N. Graham

      That pretty much backs up what I already thought.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Tom Cruise is going to be pissed.
    Or hopefully will turn to a “dark side”.

    • I thought he already was on the darkside.

  • An alternative title, or better yet subtitle, for this article might be: “Independent Scientologists file declarations in support of Garcias in fraud and refund case against Church of Scientology”

    Independent Scientologists who submitted declarations in support of the Garcia family: Mark “Marty” Rathbun; Luis Garcia; Christie Collbran; Dan Koon; Haydn James; Bert Schippers; Karry Campbell; Scott Campbell.

    Ref: Indie 500 List
    http://www.scientology-cult.com/declarations-of-independence/the-indie-500.html

    • sugarplumfairy

      Yay, Indies!!!!! Keep ’em coming!!!!

    • Spackle Motion

      Just a little recommendation on this list – it may be easier on the eyes (and stop the too long; didn’t read disease) if you listed names separate from their “qualifications”. People lurking will probably want to scan this list for people that they know, and the format on your site doesn’t exactly make it easy. Maybe insert a chart with column headers?

      I’m guessing that some lurkers are too afraid of entheta exposure and may not spend too much time on your site so you may want to make it easier to spot names.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Almost 500! Wow, that’s a lot of SPs!

      Oh, wait, there’s 2,000+ more:

      https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/big-list-of-over-2000-exes-who-have-spoken-out.57290/

      • DeElizabethan

        YES! And I’d bet a lot of indies haven’t looked at the list of 2000+ on wwp.

    • Still_On_Your_Side

      It appears that once again, the church has gone out on a limb with no safety net. By trying to force arbitration, 1. they have invoked the IRS agreement, (in their briefs) thus ensuring that the document will have to be produced and discussed, something the church has tried to prevent for 20 years, 2. They have made disconnection, SP declarations, and excommunication litigation issues; and 3. They have guaranteed that at least 10 former members will have a chance to publicly tell their stories. So the church has gotten itself into the same predicament it was in last year during the Cook trial, only much, much worse because the church’s financial records and record-keeping are now also at issue. As the Garcia declaration states, the church failed to produce all of the records concerning money he placed with the church. The consistent failure of the church to foresee traps it sets for itself is truly amazing.

      • Missionary Kid

        To me, this has the fingerprints of The Dinky One all over it. Because something is his idea, it’s always right. Right?

        It’s similar to leaving Hitler at the head of Germany, because he made so many bad decisions that speeded up Germany’s loss of WWII.

      • aquaclara

        This is stunning, for the exact reasons you’ve described, Still On Your Side. Here is ALL the LRH/Scilon policy on being declared an SP. Add in the disconnections, excommunications, the astronomical prices for “donations” AND the invocation of the IRS agreement, and this could result in quite a nice little implosion.
        BIg applause all around for Marty, Christie, Dan, Haydn, Bert, Karry, and Scott for adding their significant weight to the suit. And the very best of luck to the Garcias for taking this on.

        • Still_On_Your_Side

          I second that round of applause for the Garcias et al, plus for Tony for bringing it all to the public!

  • My Name Is Rawl

    To Tony:

    Scribd is horrible because it forces users into an inevitable paywall – after a certain time, a document is prevented from being accessed for free by general viewers, and a fee has to be paid to view the same document you uploaded to be viewed by the world … for free. In short, Scribd screws their own users over, and document viewers even more. It’s evil. Search Google for “Scribd sucks” for articles explaining why Scribd should not be used.

    Use a Scribd alternative like Docstoc that does not behave in such an antisocial and psychopathic manner.

    Also, for donations, having a direct donation link would be more advisable than having to email Scott. If you don’t want to use PayPal (and PayPal definitely sucks and is not recommended), you should research one of the myriad PayPal alternatives available, and if you feel adventurous, you should look into accepting donations via BitCoin, which is the most anonymous and secure method currently available and there are a number of services that allow you to convert BitCoin to real currencies especially for situations like this where potential benefactors would wish to remain completely shielded from exposure to OSA.

    • Spackle Motion

      Scribd sucks but you advocate BitCoin? Have you not been reading the news? That would be like having Tony’s donors place their money into a volatile stock and hoping the sell rate doesn’t plummet.

    • sugarplumfairy

      ive never had an issue with PayPal..

    • TonyOrtega

      The Scribd paywall dispute happened three years ago. The documents I put on this blog six months ago are still available and working. As for donations, there is a direct donation link on the page, and the e-mail to Scott is a convenience for people who want to find alternative ways to give.

  • Randall Wise? I wonder if this is the Randy Wise that I used to work for in Glendale. At General Networks in the Montrose area. Great to see they are out, either way.

  • jensting

    Well, the court would be able to simply require both Marty Rathbun and David “he is NOT insane!” to testify in court and that would sort it out.
    Oh, and Co$ / COB: do watch the discovery fraud, the courts are catching on…

    • FistOfXenu

      I’d pay good money to be in that courtroom jensting. I guess they wouldn’t let me bring popcorn?

      • Observer

        At first glance I read that as “I’d pay good money to be in that courtroom jeering” and I was all like “Me too!” lol

        • FistOfXenu

          I don’t need a lot of help to come up with ideas like that Observer. But I don’t mind them either. 😉

          With a bit of planning we could come up with some cheers and songs to use at different times. You know, like football cheers and songs.

          “Tick tock tick tock
          Those Garcias really rock!
          Tock tick tock tick
          The $cienos look like they’ve been beat with a stick!
          Tick tock tick tock
          The Demented Midget is in for a shock!
          Tock tick tock tick
          You’re out of time Davey, you better run quick!”

          Now let’s get some of our talented people writing these so we’re ready in time. We need something better than that when we walk into court.

          • Observer

            J-U-S-T-I-C-E
            It’s here for you, COB!
            Turn your tiny tail and run
            While we sit here and watch the fun!

            • FistOfXenu

              Give me an F
              —- F!
              Give me an R
              —- R!
              Give me an A
              —- A!
              Give me a U
              —- U!
              Give me a D
              —- D!
              What’s that spell?
              $CIENTOLOGY!
              What’s that spell?
              $CIENTOLOGY!
              What’s that spell?
              $CI-EN-TO-LO-GY-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y-Y!

            • Sherbet

              OMIGOD, Fist. I was thinking of the exact same thing (spelling out “fraud”) but I didn’t go too far with it.

            • FistOfXenu

              Wow! You think we got some kind of sooper powerz going here?

            • Sherbet

              I think so!

          • FistOfXenu

            And how about a cadence for everybody with the right to wear a REAL uniform and not that Sea mOrg Halloween costume?

            I don’t know but I been told!
            justice can’t be bought and sold!
            Miscavige used to think it could!
            Let’s show him his dough’s no good!

      • RMycroft

        Maybe if you brought enough for everyone?

        • FistOfXenu

          I can do that.

  • DodoTheLaser

    It would be so cool if Tom Cruise will leave scientology in 2013 and reunite with Katie and Suri.
    One can hope.

    • 1subgenius

      A nice thought.

      • FistOfXenu

        I’d like that. Just as long as I don’t have to start liking his movies. Or his tooth.

        • Sherbet

          Oblivion was a big weekend hit at the box office. Doggone it!

          • Ze Moo

            The studio set up the Oblivion release timing very well. They started an intense ad campaign 2 months ago and did the premier circuit overseas starting about a month ago. The move already made half it cost overseas before the US opening.

            The movie has great special effects and computer backgrounds. Technically it is at least a good movie. Aren’t OTs supposed to be able to clone themselves? TCs movie has TC clones, what a surprise. Too bad that center tooth is his best acting coach….Most reviews have mentioned couch jumping and other CO$ inspired nonsense, so TC and his studio know the baggage he carries. It has limited his movie choices and will continue to cause problems.

            • Sherbet

              This is from the Boston Globe’s review: “‘Oblivion’ is a lot like its star: clean, cold, efficient, increasingly overblown, and not a little inexplicable.”

        • i-Betty

          “If you don’t care for Cruise, be warned – there’s an awful lot of him in this movie. There’s clever framing to make him appear taller, or at least of equivalent height to his ex-model co-star Kurylenko and when they appear straight-on ( http://alturl.com/a6ypd ) it raises the distracting question, is Cruise standing on a box or is Kurylenko in a hole?”

    • BosonStark

      But how could he, after Colombia was made crime and drug free through the distribution of The Way to Happiness pamphlet? I’d say Tom’s next wife/egg is waiting for him in Colombia.

      • 1subgenius

        “…Nancy Cartwright… considered a great beauty on Jupiter…”

        I chuckled.

      • RMycroft

        In 2003, a Scientology site claimed that TWO MILLION TWTH booklets had been distributed in Colombia to cure their problems. In 2004, the UN described the Colombian conflicts as, “the worst humanitarian crisis in the Western Hemisphere.”

        Apparently another blizzard of booklets did the trick, and cut crime by 50% over ten years.
        http://web.archive.org/web/20030712052402/http://apume.org/results_and_endorsements.asp

        • stateofcircle

          If simply distributing, and therefore providing wide access to, a “book” about basic human morals solved all of civilization’s problems, civilization would have no problems, since The Bible and The Quaran are the most widely available books about basic human morals. Oh yeah and the fact that TWTH is basically a ripoff of The Ten Commandments and other key Biblical tenets. Stupid Scientology logic is stupid and illogical.

      • i-Betty

        ‘egg’ 😛

    • elar aitch

      Interestingly, someone on ESMB poInted out the other day the plot to Oblivion [SPOILER] involves Tom’s character realising he’s been lied to and tricked and had his memory altered in order to commit harmful acts. Now he could relate to that through Hubbard’s whole-track nonsense, but what if he angled the mirror a different way…..art imitating life imitating art imitating….you get the picture.

      • 1subgenius

        That is very interesting.

      • Spackle Motion

        Tom Cruise is not smart enough to make that connection.

      • DodoTheLaser

        Same thoughts here. Time will tell.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Another OT VIII is out of Corp and into Indie scientology.
    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/phil-colson-speaks/
    Glad he is feeling better.

    Also, Mike and his blog is on fire.

    • 1subgenius

      Yes. And compare to the “philosophic” ramblings of Marty. Mike is actually striking some blows.

    • Bob

      DTL, yes there are some really revealing articles on the church in particular the current donation ploys. The church just gets more and more desperate and disgusting. I see this first hand and it is like being in a Dickens book where I see the pick pockets doing their work to the unsuspecting marks and there is nothing I can do about it except protect my own money pouch.

    • grundoon

      Phil Colson was already OT V and Class IV, yet the cult somehow got him to sign up to redo Objectives to the tune of $65000. That’s a lot of Objectives! But maybe it’s worth it to gain total certainty over the temperature of a bottle. If he invites you for dinner, you know the wine will be chilled to perfection!

    • i-Betty

      I’m so happy to hear that he’s taken such a big step, and I hope he’s doing well 🙂

    • Captain Howdy

      Some indie got all entubulated because you described yourself as an ex-scientologist. HaH!

      • DodoTheLaser

        Yeah, I saw it too. Oh well, imagine what would happen if I unleashed my SP powers on him.. lol

        TrevAnon answered his questions nicely for me though.

  • Scientia

    SP Declare on Dorthe Mai. Her sole “crime”? Requesting a refund. http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=16214

  • monkeyknickers

    I’m really surprised that Marty Rathbun coughed up so many LRH policies that are totally . . . . unflattering to LRH. Exposing his really awful and evil and criminal dictates to his followers. I was kinda taken aback. What gives?

    • 1subgenius

      My thoughts exactly.
      Something about facts, and having to recite them simply and under oath may have an effect on him.

      • monkeyknickers

        I definitely think it will. Like when scientologists try to explain xenu to outsiders and are smacked up side the head with how ridiculous it all sounds.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      I think old Marty Fartiblaster is developing a dual personally. He loves LRH and the tech with one side of himself, but on the other side, he wants to take down DM soooo sooo badly that he will throw LRH under the buss to get the desired result.

      • monkeyknickers

        Actually it made me think of this stat I read somewhere about decompression times coming out of cults, and scientology was the longest and most difficult – 12 years, I think. Marty is almost there . . . first the ice cracks a little, and then just . . . melts. Maybe this is just part of his journey OUT.

  • 0tessa

    It looks like $cientology is getting more and more entangled in its own woven web! It would be the nicest end of the cult: choking in its own vomit.

    • Using legal to tie up everything, that’s Hubbard policy. The Scientology lawyers must be giddy with excitement.

      Hubbard’s own craziness conditioned him into this operating basis, where he was just bouncing from one of his crazy operating rule sets, to another of the parts of his operation.

      It’s just bouncing from one of his created messes to another of his created messes, and he’s got lots of rules for the members to now go round and round in circles, fighting Hubbard’s own messes for him, now that Hubbard is gone/dead (and he’s NOT circling some star, he’s NOT doing the OT running program out there, that was another of his fantasy messes that’s got the members looking forward to the OT running program themselves someday).

      • 0tessa

        ‘Fighting Hubbard’s own messes’: you are right. I would like to add: fighting Miscavige’s messes on top of that. That is a lot of messes. Even for OT’s.

  • monkeyknickers

    And wow- the price list. Jesus. What really stumps me is why people don’t ask WHY. WHY is this shit so expensive. WHY is a “clear rundown” $ 1000.00 but something further up the bridge is $ 8000.00. Both are simply auditing. So what’s the excuse to leech money away from a PC? That for the expensive course, the legal size paper with computer printed questions is made of unicorn flesh ? Or . . . your auditor is now equipped with titanium endoskeleton imprinted with all of LRH’s “scriptures”?

    It’s maddening to me. I understand (as much as I can) that your mind is effectively put on ice when you really dedicate to Scientology. You can’t make good decisions. But still – we endeavor to use logic and common sense in all other areas of our lives . . . . buying a house, choosing a school for our kids, comparing prices on milk at the grocery store . . . . but on the most important issue of all, ourselves, it becomes a matter of faith. Of FAITH. Why is this disconnect there I wonder?

    Faith and credulity are not virtues. They are not pathways to truth.

    • “WHY is a “clear rundown” $ 1000.00 but something further up the bridge is $ 8000.00. Both are simply auditing.”

      It’s the same sensible business strategy that drug dealers use. The first purchases are cheap and as you become addicted the cost rises for the identical drugs.

      Andrew

      • 1subgenius

        Indeed.

      • monkeyknickers

        Ah . . . . that makes sense. AND it makes scientology even more creepy to me.

      • Captain Howdy

        Actually in the 20 years I’ve been in Boston, the price of a bag of dope has pretty much remained constant. The things that cause a fluctuation are temporary shortages and location. A bag that is $20 in Boston or $10 in NYC could cost you $60 in Vermont. Unlike the alien space cult biz, there’s no shortage of competition in the dug dealing biz. The scenario you describe is a Hollywood/TV fiction.

        • You’re right of course that in a free market economy, competition keeps prices stable. But the Church of Scientology has a monopoly on ‘spiritual freedom and one’s eternity’ and any ersatz versions will ensure that each time you come back from the implant station your memories will have been expunged and you have to start all over again at the new prices.

          As for drugs, suppose a government decided that tobacco was a bad thing and should be banned and its citizens protected from themselves but of course such an action would lose votes when 21.7% of the adult population smoked. Perhaps they’d have meetings and ask each other “what would Ron do?”

          And lo and behold the answer would be to increase the price of tobacco products 10% each year on the first of January initially for 4 years though obviously extendable . And in a few short years a packet of 20 cigarettes for example, currently selling for $15.60 would be over $100 and out of reach for most people though many of them might not have noticed the gradual increase thus fewer votes lost.

          The extra money would be siphoned off into the government’s coffers and the nation’s health would supposedly improve. And the committee would lean back in their comfy chairs rubbing their pudgy little hands together in glee and crying out “Thank you Ron!”

          The irritating issue of home-grown tobacco could be solved by making it a criminal offense and the lobbying power of the tobacco companies, which would not have been nationalized, is now negligible.

          Could such a thing happen? Possibly.

          […]

          Customs and Excise (Tobacco Products—Budget Measures) Amendment Bill

          This Bill amends the Customs and Excise Act 1996 to make 4 cumulative 10% increases to the duties on all tobacco products:

          – the first on 1 January 2013 to those duties in force at the close of 31 December 2012:

          – the second on 1 January 2014 to those duties in force at the close of 31 December 2013:

          – the third on 1 January 2015 to those duties in force at the close of 31 December 2014:

          – the fourth on 1 January 2016 to those duties in force at the close of 31 December 2015.

          Those increases will be made in combination with annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) indexation of the duties or, if no CPI-indexation occurs on 1 January in all or any of 2013 to 2016, independently.

          The amendments increase the price of tobacco to discourage tobacco consumption, which will improve the health of New Zealanders.

          The Bill also amends or affects exclusions of tobacco product price increases (including those resulting from increases in duties) from required CPI-indexation of, or related to, social assistance. The Bill continues these exclusions for the indexation required for the years 2014 to 2017 inclusive. These exclusions are in the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act 1989, Education Act 1989, Income Tax Act 2007, New Zealand Superannuation and Retirement Income Act 2001, Social Security Act 1964, and War Pensions Act 1954.

          Continuing these exclusions ensures that recipients of social assistance are not reimbursed for the increases in tobacco duties. Any reimbursement for those increases would contradict the reason for making them, which is to discourage smoking.

          […]

          Andrew

    • FistOfXenu

      Prices are according to product not process. To normal people that means prices are according to how much smoke you blow about the product not about the process because let’s face it you can’t blow as much smoke about the process. But the product? They run a dry ice cloud over the horseshit and you just pay so they’ll turn on a fan and let you see it.

      You’d pay more to be sooper than to be just a little bit stronger right?

      • monkeyknickers

        That is an image of awesomeness, FX. Smarty.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Why faith? Because deep down, we are all afraid of death and when someone promises you an afterlife or a way to eternity, most of us will forgo logic and reason and jump on the faith bandwagon.

      Life is short, death sucks and few people want to admit that once you’re done, you’re done.

      • monkeyknickers

        I actually find it a huge comfort, knowing it’s over when it’s over. It makes life more . . . precious I think. Plus . . . all the time I would have spent pursuing spiritual betterment for the next life can NOW be used to hang out on Tony’s blog and make shitty jokes! 🙂

        • i-Betty

          Yay! 🙂

          • monkeyknickers

            🙂

      • Omar Khayyám knew what death meant …….

        And if the Wine you drink, the Lip you press,
        End in the Nothing all Things end in – Yes –
        Then fancy while Thou art, Thou art but what
        Thou shalt be – Nothing – Thou shalt not be less.

        Andrew

        • monkeyknickers

          I love that man. And so I add another fave on theism:

          And do you think that unto such as you
          A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
          God gave a secret, and denied it me?
          Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!

          I am so psyched that someone quoted Omar Khayyam on my comment that I think I’m having breathing problems.

          • The moving finger writes, and having writ
            Moves on– not all thy piety nor wit
            Can call it back to cancel half a line,
            Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

            • monkeyknickers

              THIS IS MY FAVORITE BLOG OF THE UNIVERSE INCLUDING TARGET 2. NO, REALLY.

              Thanks Robert for the awesomeness. You and Andrew are my godless poet-loving heroes. !

      • Sidney18511

        The way I look at it, death is a win-win. If upon death there is something else waiting for us….well…hip hip hooray. On the other hand, if there is nothing….just lights out, you won’t even know about it.

        • monkeyknickers

          I couldn’t concur more concurringly. 🙂

          • BuryTheNuts2

            monkeyknickers!

            I love your way with words…

            • monkeyknickers

              As Lewis Carrol’s Humpty Dumpty says,

              ” . . . . . I make a word do a lot of work like that,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘I always pay it extra. ..

              🙂

              And also, you’re awful sweet, BTN

    • grundoon

      If the auditor has certain training, the Chruch charges a much higher price per hour in the auditing chair. Higher level services are only delivered by auditors trained for those levels; the price list reflects this. Furthermore as you advance to higher levels, you are required to use higher priced auditors for all your services: not only to audit up to the next level, but also to redo lower level services, and to be probed for thoughtcrimes.

  • Thanks Tony, for adding Scott Pilutik’s well reasoned legal opinion. Other countries legal systems might consider the Garcia’s action to be a strictly commercial case which had nothing to do with religion but about goods or services paid for but not delivered.

    If the Roman Catholic Church refused to pay its electricity bill but instead insisted that the Curia was the appropriate judicial venue for resolving the issue, sensible people would laugh scornfully and applaud the electricity company for disconnecting the Ideal Org’s power.

    Regarding the vexed question as to whether Scientology is in fact a religion or a for-profit psychotherapy company who paid handsomely for glowing references from New Religious Movement ‘scholars’ to determine its spiritual credentials, well, who better an authority to determine this than L Ron Hubbard himself.

    Some documents he wrote made it clear that he regarded Scientology as a business, not a religion. In one letter dated April 10, 1953, he says calling Scientology a religion solves “a problem of practical business”, and its status as a religion achieves something “more equitable…with what we’ve got to sell”. In a 1962 official policy letter dated 29 October 1962, he wrote “Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors.”

    Andrew

    • grundoon

      Pah, what did that old blowhard know? The IRS says it’s a religion, so there it is.

  • RMycroft

    In court, ask Scientology for a list of all the people who have successfully received a refund after going through the arbitration process.

    Scientology: “Ummmm…”

    • FistOfXenu

      The $cientolawyers’ll just be handed a bunch of Sea mOrg slaves that were drilled to pretend they left and got refunds and are “very happy” with the “amazing” refund program. They’ll lie perfectly like they were taught. When it’s over, all of them will be KRd to Ethics for speaking publicly against $cientarCONon (they “left” therefore they spoke against it). They’ll end up on RPF and paying through the nose for being crims and SPs that SCOHB.

      • Still_On_Your_Side

        In order for the CoS to present that kind of large scale perjury, it would have to manufacture records from both the CoS and the individuals. Those records would have to include cashed checks, requests for reimbursement, witnesses to testify as to the vericity CoS records, etc., etc. It would involve a lot more than what the CoS presented against L. Wright and Jenna Miscavige, and it would look very phoney.

        Also, the CoS motions to compel were not very compelling (excuse the pun), and, if arbitration records existed, the CoS would have discussed these records upfront to bolster their weak arguments. As it is, the CoS has dug a very deep hole for itself (pun intended) and is going to be spending a lot of money trying to quash subpoenas for Miscavige and others to testify, and to prevent the Garcias from receiving records the CoS will not want to produce.

        • FistOfXenu

          $cientarCONon manufacturing records? This sounds unlikely to you? Anything as unlikely as hatching a plot to infiltrate Paulette Cooper’s life with a phoney boy friend and frame her for assassination plots and all kinds of other shit? If they wanted to go into court like that they’d do it right.

          But I should tell you it was meant to be a kind of sour joke about the honesty of the cult. Obviously it failed. I do that sometimes. I’ll go KR myself now. 🙂

          • q-bird

            No Fist No! No KR’s for you! sour jokes just taste a bit funny is all – you keep sayin’ what you say – bc Freedom is what we want & what have here.

            • Sherbet

              Freedom’s just another word for nothing left in your wallet to give cos.

            • FistOfXenu

              Janis would be proud.

            • q-bird

              Hello there Sherbet – I have been reading Tony’s Blog for a couple of years now. I have (do) enjoy your words & your POV immensely — thank you for being so articulate about such a difficult subject — you often speak FOR me, eh?! You are my voice. Sincerely, Q

            • FistOfXenu

              My wife would leave me if I ever started looking like that. But thanks for the sentiments.

            • q-bird

              hello there Fist ~ Good day to you!

              A quick & friendly note: the attached was not aimed at you specifically m’dear FOX ~ I am aware that when I post here it will be seen by others too. I merely liked the words and image presented as well as the thought behind it. I find the intense colorful expression above to be artful, bright & interesting… a celebration of insouciance even… quite like many of the comments I find here @ Tony’s underground bunker… quite like many of yours Mrs. Pattycake 🙂

              As a ‘never-in’ I feel that I have no right, none what-so-ever, to engage in snark — and besides, ingenious I am not — So, to show my support for all things that lead folks away from $cientarCONon — I up arrow. And I read as many of the posts as time permits; I listen intently. And sometimes, apparently, I feel compelled to do more… please consider me nothing more than a dorky sideline cheerleader, that’s all.

              and now, off to today’s article & commentary… to continue… I look forward to today’s lessons.
              Kind Regards to you Mr. & Mrs. FistofXenu too! CYA ’round, Q

            • FistOfXenu

              Thanks for all that. It’s good to know you a little.

          • Still_On_Your_Side

            Sorry, I should have caught that. Hmmmm, but I can see them trying to produce that kind of “evidence” thinking they are smarter than any lawyer, and no one will catch on to the fraud. After all, they have the world convinced that Miscavige has 100 million subjects, right?

          • You must be a “sour apostate”. I was sure “bitter” wasn’t the only flavor they came in.

            • Artoo45

              Can I be a lemon-lime apostate? I was never in, but I really wanna be one . . .

            • FistOfXenu

              I think we come in all the flavors. I’m sour and I make a great whisky sour.

  • Scientology Cuckoo: Discounts on Donations

    Word clear that, suckers!

  • dub321

    WoW.. wTF… ThAT iS All…

  • Daniel Victor

    In 2002 I had asked for a Chaplain’s Court cycle at Flag. Ten years later it was not resolved.
    The Church is not only incompetent in judicial disputes but – and this is significant – it cannot judge a dispute between two parties if one of them is the Church itself. It needs a higher court. And logically, that needs to be above the Church.
    The Church cannot use the First Amendment for protecting its own illegal actions. Disputes over donations to a Church are no religious actions where public courts better stay away from as they are not competent in judging about certain religious matters.
    Very curious how this will end!
    Good luck!

  • aquaclara

    And of course, Tony breaks another blockbuster story right here at the Bunker.
    What does it take for a non-affiliated journalist to be nominated for a Pullitzer? And do we have to wait for Davey’s bags to be packed?

  • Zenster

    The Price List is truly frightening.
    What a mountain of BULLSHIT invented by Flim Flam Hubbard
    I feel so sorry for the fools who pay hard earned money for this make believe BULLSHIT
    All from an idiot who stroked out at 74

    • stateofcircle

      Can anyone explain WHY, exactly, these services cost so much? I could maybe understand cost for some materials, like books, which aren’t thousands of dollars in the real world. But if these services are being provided mainly by sea orgers and staff, who don’t get paid more than a few dollars a week, what is the actual justification for it?

      • John P.

        They cost so much because the cult found out that people were willing to pay. So they kept raising prices. It’s like any other “luxury good” where purchase confers intangible benefits like status, appeals to narcissism, etc. The phenomenon exists in staple goods as well. Over the short term, gasoline demand is relatively insensitive to price: if it spikes up by $1 per gallon at the pump overnight people cannot change their lives instantly to drive less so they suck up and pay (though over the long term, rises in the price of gas do lead to conservation).

        In the past, when the cult was booming, charging big prices allowed the cult to send 85% of money coming in the door “up lines” to Hubbard or Miscavige for their secret stash. But today, even though the unit prices are ludicrous, there are so few people coming in the door that the cult isn’t making much money, even though they are paying the staff less than workers assembling iPhones in China.

        But now the cult is in a very difficult position: they have sold themselves as the church of winners who are able to make tons of money because of their super powers. And they’ve sold the rapid expansion of the cult as another reason for existing members to stay. Their high prices are now well known and are a deterrent to new members to come in the door (there are many other deterrents, but this is certainly a factor). So what happens when no new members are coming in, and you’re dependent on a shrinking pool of rich members who stay because they think staying proves they’re winners? If you cut prices at that point, you’re destroying the value of your brand. It’s why Mercedes doesn’t bring the A-class cars to the US — they have a luxury-only image here and that would undermine the perception of their brand. So if Scientology had a sale at that point to bring in new members, they would lose the support of existing members who are buying less services because of the price. It’s a nasty trap and one that’s not easily solved even by a competent management team. Miscavige is certainly not going to figure out a way out of this mess.

        • monkeyknickers

          It really does ASTONISH me that someone is DM’s position could have so little foresight. I mean, I’m a musician, and I can’t do long division or figure out how to use an electric can opener, and even *I* see it. What a moron this wee man is.

        • Sidney18511

          John…wouldn’t they be able to survive for many years on the interest alone of their 1 or 2 billion dollar stash. That is an awful lot of green they have piled up.

          • John P.

            1% interest on $1 billion in reserves is $10 million per year. Some people have claimed that the reserves are more like $6 billion, but if you look at the sum total of the profits from the operation since its founding, that total does not approach $6 billion. And given some of the investment stupidity I’ve heard about, I highly doubt they were able to take $1 million in cash and turn it into a $6 billion portfolio by following the investing principles of noted financier L. Ron Hubbard.

            As near as I can guesstimate, they’re pulling in something like $200 million per year from all sources these days. It might be as high as $300 million and as low as $125 million but it’s probably not outside those boundaries. My suspicion is that the profit margins are now under 25%, perhaps even lower.

            It’s not too likely but it is distinctly possible that the cult is losing money on a consolidated financial basis at this point (I’m sure the orgs are teetering on the edge but the cult overall is being saved by Flag, a shrinking IAS donor base, and Narconon, which is under the biggest threat it’s ever faced due to all these pesky lawsuits). It would be wise, however, to take the most conservative approach (i.e., least favorable to my argument) and presume that the cult is still somewhat profitable.

            Remember they can’t really shrink the number of people working for the organization by much because, in his infinite genius, Hubbard dictated the personnel structure of each org, so they have lots of bodies who do nothing productive; even at slave labor wages the total cost of those bodies adds up, and the cost of the building adds up. And speaking of buildings, they can’t close orgs that have no customers, or people would start to know the cult is circling the drain. Things like this mean that much of what would be variable costs in a sanely run organization are fixed costs that can’t be cut when revenue declines further. So another $50 million drop in revenue or another $50 million in unanticipated lawsuit settlements per year and they will be eating the reserves, because interest on the reserves will not be enough to sustain them.

            Finally, if they have money in cash in safe deposit boxes (illegal in the US) or if they have money in offshore banks, the interest rate is lower than 2%, and may actually be zero or less.

            • nevarmore

              it thrills me to my very core…

            • Still_On_Your_Side

              They also have a shrinking pool of unpaid labor as older members die or “retire” (wear out), and second/third generation younger members decide they don’t want to dedicate their lives to fundraising in order to pay for Miscavige’s luxuries. We also might finally see federal and state investigations of human trafficking of foreign nationals and illegal child labor. Add to that the very real possibility that in the near future someone will file a lawsuit for unpaid back wages before the deadline for filing those kinds of lawsuits expires, and the court will agree that forced slave labor behind razor-bladed barbed wire fencing is not voluntary and not ministerial. Add it up: back wages, criminal investigations, dwindling membership numbers, refund lawsuits, plus the end of Narconon. The resulting implosion may cause the various “Orgs” to finally rebel. Who knows, we may soon see an international fire sale of Ideal Orgs.

      • RMycroft

        Like the claimed membership numbers, I believe that it’s mandated that the prices have to increase a certain percentage every few years. Over the decades, that’s snowballed to the current rates.

        As for staff and sea org, they rarely get any courses, and when they do, it’s added to their “freeloader debt”. (Unenforceable, but a good stick to threaten true believers with.)

      • grundoon

        The more you have overpaid for something, the harder you’ll work to make yourself believe that it was worth the price.

        • 1subgenius

          Can’t tell if you’re talking about Ducati’s or Scientology.

      • dagobarbz

        Baby needs this year’s custom Ducati…

      • Still_On_Your_Side

        I think someone took a look at the billing rate for the attorneys the CoS uses and decided that the church could do better. Hence, the $1,000 to $3,000 per hour audit.

  • 1subgenius

    “Plaintiffs’ complaint is neither an attack on Scientology as a supposed religion nor, in any way related to the religious services they paid for.”
    Supposed religion.
    Zing.

  • Sherbet

    I’ve got to say, Marty looks pretty sharp. I’d give him all my money.

    • 1subgenius

      Sincerity is the key to success in life, and once you can fake that you’ve got it made.

      • Sherbet

        That could be the motto of the cos, genius.

      • RMycroft

        Darn you! I figured that it was the animated GIF and kept watching it to see him move or blink!

        • 1subgenius

          I have the GIF, but I don’t know how those things work.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      No, Sherbet, No! Its just the “uniform effect”
      (Like the butterfly effect is to the chaos theory!)

      Go read “movin on up” until you have innoculated yourself!

      • Sherbet

        OK, he looks pretty sharp, but I wouldn’t have given him all my money. And I can’t read Marty’s blog. It gives me agita.

      • FistOfXenu

        BTN consider yourself double up-voted.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Thanks, I needed that.. There really is something about a man in uniform.. Even a sham, self-aggrandizing, pompous, vainglorious uniform..

        • FistOfXenu

          Something? You know we can help you with that. The Tech can take care of your ruin in no time. Before you know it you won’t be melting at the sight of men in uniform because you’ll be signing a billion year contract to WEAR one. Now come with me and bring your credit card. We’ll get you signed up and on course right now. 🙂

          • EnthralledObserver

            Martly just said something similar directly to me over at his site (not about men in uniform though ;)) – but some drivel about my double standard or something and that Scientology could help me with it. Personally I think I was just employing my inate sense of fairness, but Marty must know better, he is highly trained, right – NOT.
            I also need some help responding to all the questions piled at me about the tech and dianetics etc. I have no time to do my own research and I only said what I said based on other’s opinions of what I have read here and various other places etc.

            • FistOfXenu

              But you’d rather be regged here than there, right? 😛

    • Captain Howdy

      Baah! He looks like John C Reilly..no offense John, you’re a great actor.

      • Sherbet

        He does!

      • Espiando

        Well, for the past three or so years, he has been Wreck-It Marty when it comes to CoS…

    • Sidney18511

      Sherbet…..put down the crack pipe and back away slowly.

      • Sherbet

        A young Marty is certainly easier on the eyes than a young Hubbard.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Marty now is much easier on the eyes than a young Hubbard.

          • FistOfXenu

            Most people are. Hell, I seen toads that are easier on the eyes than a young Hubbard.

          • Sherbet

            Jabba the Hutt is much…well, you get the idea.

            • FistOfXenu

              Uh oh. That sooper powerz thing’s going on again.

            • Sherbet

              Don’t you remember performing the Xenu Mind Meld on me at last year’s Christmas party?

            • FistOfXenu

              You want me to remember what I did at a Christmas party? rofl

              So I did something and I told you that’s how you do the Xenu Mind Meld? Right. That’s what it was of course. But I must’ve been too drunk to remember. 😀

            • Sherbet

              That’s what I told my husband you were doing…

            • FistOfXenu

              Phew! So we’re all okay with a good shore story.

    • 1subgenius

      Creepy grin is creepy.

    • 1subgenius

      Creepy grin is creepy.

  • 1subgenius

    The Garcias say no arbitration because:

    1. Parties may arbitrate disputes under a contract, but this isn’t a contract action. Their action is for fraud, which can’t, by its nature, be arbitrable.

    2. The arbitration, were it to apply, is illusory (and we have the dox), and therefore unenforceable.

    {Sorry if I’m just restating the obvious.)

    I can’t imagine a scenario where their case gets dismissed at this point.
    We eagerly await the Scientology reply.

  • This whole thing is wonderful.

    Six years ago I had some fun going through organized scientology’s fraudulent refund forms and wrote up a posting showing the steps on the form, how it was designed to stop refunds and why it was a fraud.

    I am so glad to see organized scientology called out on this subject.

    FWIW, here is what I said about this in 2007 (I posted on ars as ‘SME” then):

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.scientology/G3pD7BkWlF4
    Go get them!

  • t1kk

    Just to interject another point I was going to make above but it was getting late and I’d already read a ton by that point. Scientology is well aware that its arbitration process is profoundly legally ill-equipped to address the Garcias’ claims, which is why its focus has instead been on the first amendment abstention argument. But in response to the Garcias’ submission of declarations demonstrating the catch-22 nature of Scientology arbitration process, I have little doubt they will provide to the court, at some point, examples of the arbitration process’s success.

    And by that I mean you can bet your ass that ever since the Garcias filed their complaint Scientology has been scrambling to find or even create such examples that might legitimize it in any way. These, of course, will be shams. A few important things to look for, therefore, when those success stories are inevitably produced: (1) the date of the refund; (2) the name of the person refunded; and (3) any notes as to the arbitration process itself.

    The Garcias’ attorneys will likely look to strike any declaration detailing a successful arbitration taking place *after* the Garcias filed their complaint, because it is reasonable Scientology would have concocted such to bolster its arbitration processes’ legitimacy; evidence along these lines is inherently untrustworthy. It will be important to closely examine the declarations of such persons submitted by Scientology because they will contain factual assertions that may be contradicted by available evidence, even online, such as dates of courses taken.

    These declarants will be able to be deposed and their factual assertions scrutinized (should the court not dismiss Scientology’s motion before getting this far), including the nature of their supposed dissatisfaction with Scientology. It will be difficult for Scientology to find people who can simultaneously sell their dissatisfaction with conviction and who are also willing to subject themselves to what could amount to perjury, without risking such a scheme blowing up in their faces.

    • dbloch7986

      The most likely example of what you are talking about would be someone who has left the cult, requested a refund and seeking to get back into the good graces of the cult (assuming that such people still exist). Likely that person will have family who are still Scientologists and thus their participation in the lawsuit by supporting Scientology’s claims could amount to extortion.

      As a matter of fact, it would be difficult for me to imagine a situation in which such a person’s declaration or testimony could hold up on a witness stand (assuming the lawsuit goes to a jury trial). It’s likely that with a little research, the declarations and/or testimony of anyone that Scientology uses for it’s case would be torn to shreds by the Garcia’s attorney/s.

      If the judge decides to throw out Scientology’s first amendment claim, I am guessing that Scientology will settle rather than let this end up in an actual courtroom.

      • t1kk

        Thanks, yes–there are people who bob in and out of the church’s good graces, but probably relatively few who successfully obtain a refund *and then* return. Realize too, though, that it’s not just the refund itself (and not just refunds; here we’re also talking about donations); plenty of people have been refunded, and usually they sign away a ton of future rights in order to get that refund. This is about them finding/creating examples of the *arbitration process* resulting in a successful refund–its transparency, its fairness, etc. The mechanism that leads to the refund, not just the refund. From everything I’ve read over the years, such people don’t exist.

        • dbloch7986

          I know that there are people who have received refunds of “unused” money on account. However, someone who has received a refund for dissatisfactory services; I can’t imagine that has happened ever.

          Thinking about it, if the Garcia’s end up receiving a refund for their services by way of claiming that the results they achieved at the top were not commensurate with what they were promised at the bottom, well it would essentially give anyone who participates in Scientology a “no risk” guarantee. It could change the face of Scientology, or even demolish Scientology all together.

          If I am thinking about it from a strictly impartial point of view, independent from my own experiences, I can see how such a judgement could possibly set a dangerous precedent in the eyes of someone with no knowledge of Scientology. A judge might be reluctant to grant a refund for all services. It might come down to the Garcia’s having to seek a refund for only those services with which they were dissatisfied.

      • Missionary Kid

        I’m hoping for no settlement, and as many facts revealed in open court as possible. I want to see precedence established.

    • i-Betty

      Just like a government choosing to release bad news about their own performance on a day when they know newspapers will be focused on a much bigger story (“It’s now a very good day to get out anything we want to bury. Councillors’ expenses?” – Jo Moore, government spin doctor, 11 September 2001), now is a good time for those seeking refunds from CoS. Just don’t sign a NDA, okay? Your testimony may be needed by Mr Babbitt, and the more you can do to help him and the Garcias, the more we will love you.

      • t1kk

        > now is a good time for those seeking refunds from CoS. Just don’t sign a NDA, okay?

        Yep. It is definitely high tide on Scientology refunds. Again though, refunds are one thing and refunds as a result of some sort of demonstrable, recorded arbitration mechanism is another. The court is going to be looking for the latter.

    • Still_On_Your_Side

      After the fact rationalizations or manufactured evidence are easy to spot, and judges don’t like them. If they existed, the CoS would already have used them.

      • t1kk

        Scientology has effectively unlimited funds at its disposal, not to mention a few months now, to come up with something plausible. I think that if they do proffer something that looks plausible, it’ll look pretty plausible, pushing the burden to the plaintiffs to demonstrate how it’s a sham.

  • Dwayners13

    This is going to be one of those occasions were the church strategy is going to ‘blow’ up in their face, in a variety of ways. By fighting the Garcia’s like this, they are once again going to put in motion, a series of events that will not only cost them much more money then what the Garcia’s are requesting, it will attract unwanted & incredibly damaging media attention to the church. Specifically with respect to the very policies & practices that, although beneficial in the past (as they were unknown to new members), will now be extremely detrimental as they will no longer be as secretive. So, not only will the church most likely have more disgruntled ex-members seeking the same legal remedy in terms of refunds as the Garcia, the more media exposure the case (& the others that follow it) receive, the more the public will hear about the realities of the church. This includes not only the truth about the cost of their ‘spiritual guidance & enlightenment’, but also the truth about their more secretive practices & policies such as those regarding what a SP is & what can be done to them. This will lead to the church having to pay out more money to the public scientologist who leave the church, at the same time, losing income from new members as a result of the publicity caused by the church’s decision to fight this in court. Basically Miscavige has found a way to both kick himself in the ass & shot himself in the foot at the same time.

  • Missionary Kid

    At this point, here’s what I hope is happening:

    $cientology is desperately trying for a settlement, because they don’t want any more records to become public. I hope that the Garcias don’t settle, because this will provide a road map for future lawsuits, if successful. the longer this drags out, the more exposure Co$ has, and they HATE to have anything on the public record.

    This is the first time that Marty has popped up in a lawsuit, but his testimony marks a watershed because he wrote the policy. The more he gets on the record, the better. Co$, of course, will attack him as having a vested interest in seeing the “church” fail because he is involved in a splinter group.

    You can bet that Co$ has private investigators, the OSA, and every loose $cion working to infiltrate the offices of and dig up any dirt on the judge, the attorneys, and anyone else connected with the plaintiffs. They will also mine the auditing files on the Garcias and Marty and the other former $cions for any information they can use against them. I hope they get
    caught in illegal espionage.

    Since Dinky Miscabbage is probably pulling all of the strings, and, if his past pattern holds, he probably thinks he knows better than any attorney, so hopefully, he’ll screw up again.

    This is, however, just a drop in the bucket to Co$. Let’s hope it sets a precedence for many more to come.

    • Sidney18511

      After the COS gives it the old bullshite try and things don’t go their way, they WILL refund the money and the Garcias legal team will advise them to take the money and the case will be over. Once the COS offers to make the Garcias “whole”, its over. The only dispute could be whether or not the Garcias would agree to sign a gag oder.

      • Missionary Kid

        That’s what I’m afraid of. In that case, I hope that either the Garcias refuse to sign a gag order or they make Co$ pay one hell of a price for their silence.

        • dagobarbz

          Gag orders are not valid if silence allows a crime to be committed. Just sayin…

          • Missionary Kid

            I hope there’s enough evidence to prove that.

        • But even then, the floodgates are going to open for all the other people owed refunds by the Church. A death of a thousand cuts is still a death.

          • Missionary Kid

            I’d prefer that they suffer the thousand cuts. At least that way, they’re getting the same medicine they dished out.

        • Still_On_Your_Side

          A nondisclosure agreement (gag order) would not put the court filings, i.e., the ten declarations, the SP declare, the donation “menu,” etc., back in the “bottle.” Even if the case settles, future authors, journalists, etc., have an incredible wealth of information that was not generally available before. If the CoS settles, what happens to the next 100 plaintiffs who want their refunds?

          • Missionary Kid

            Whatever the outcome, I’m hoping that it brings about more lawsuits.

            • Still_On_Your_Side

              And there will be many more lawsuits. I am wondering when the church will explode. There is only so much Miscavige can suppress in this Information Age.

            • Missionary Kid

              What Co$ has done historically is to delay, delay, delay, challenge, challenge, challenge, work to discredit everyone opposed to the, etc. I want to see done to them what they did to the IRS.

              I’ll believe the rest of the lawsuits when I see them.

              Misscabbage will only continue doing what he’s always done: blame everyone else. That will drive away all but the newbies and the hard core. There will always be new recruits, because in this information age, there are people who are pre-disposed to getting told what to do, and who don’t pay attention to the internet.

            • FistOfXenu

              MK, you mean you want to see $cientarCONon bent over a desk and gang-bangedfor 20 yrs?

            • Missionary Kid

              Only 20?

              No lubricants allowed.
              Hell would be a relief.

            • FistOfXenu

              You only wanted what they did to the IRS. That’s about 20 yrs right? I’d’ve asked for punitive damages on top. Underline “damages”

            • Missionary Kid

              Punitive Damages SQUARED.
              Since everything is your fault, I’d like to see DM suffer with shingles, MS, and Lou Gherig’s disease all at once. Pain + disfigurement + loss of finances.

              Let’s see him explain that.
              Sorry, but I’ve got no sympathy for him, and, since I don’t believe in reincarnation, I’d like to see him suffer in this life.

            • FistOfXenu

              That works for me as long as he doesn’t have enough cash to escape humiliation.

            • Missionary Kid

              Exactly.

            • FistOfXenu

              My ideal result would be for something to come out in this trial so damaging to $cientarCONon that it could reopen a whole load of past cases against them. I guess it would have to be something that uncovered their massive operation to pervert the course of justice. It needs a lawyer to say what kind of evidence it would take and what kind of ruling a judge could make. Get all those cases they corrupted and fiddled reopened and put in front of judges again. And make $cientarCONon pay ALL the costs.

              I guess a lawyer would say all that’s impossible. But since we’re doing a wish list that’s what I wish for.

            • Missionary Kid

              I’m there with you.

  • Jgg2012

    Co$ is mainly blathering about “it’s a religion, it’s a religion”. The problem is that a religion cannot use fraud. It also cannot impede a party from performing a contract. The Garcias were told that their money was going to the Super Powers building, and it apparently did not. Co$ would have a stronger case if it DID go to the Super Powers building and the Garcias agreed that the SP building would be operated according to church guidelines. They would also have a stronger case if they did not declare the Garcias, which makes the Garcias look like whistleblowers and prevents them from participating in dispute resolution.

    • dagobarbz

      Let us not forget the words of Senator Nick Xenophon. In a speech concerning Scientology in Australia, he said,

      “In Australia there are no limits on what you
      can believe. But there are limits on how you can behave.
      It is called the law, and no-one is above it.”

      • Missionary Kid

        AMEN!

      • Sidney18511

        I wish we haz a Sen.Xenophon in the USA. He knows how to kick some clam arse.

      • i-Betty

        KERPOW! (I’ve come over all 1970s comic book today.) Nick Xenophon a) has the best name EVER, b) is fearless and kick-ass, c) has a sexy voice, and d) Mrs Betty Xenophon sounds pretty cool.

        • The name “Xenophon” means “strange-sounding” (in Greek) so it is one of those self-referential words like “polysyllabic” or “obfuscatory”

  • Ruby

    It appears that the church is also trying to use the “Enrollment Agreement” as a document to support as well the $$ donated by the Garcias to the SuperPower project or other “projects”…yet this type of donation has nothing to do with “enrollment” on a religious service and so would seem to be outside that agreement. And then add on top of that the fraud they committed by not using the donation for the purpose in which it was given.

  • Shannon

    I know I’m insanely late to the party (long day, much school reading) but I’m assuming this is a jury based civil trial? Either way they are between a rock and a hard place. They always have squashed it before the records can become public especially in the last year… They may be taking their time but the cards are falling from the house 🙂

    • Ze Moo

      No jury yet, these are just pre-trial motions. The 93 IRS settlement may finally ‘officially’ be seen at this trial. The IRS may have to revisit that agreement if the court finds CO$ not compliant with that agreement. An accounting of ‘stupor powez’ building fund raising would be fun to read and could open up a whole ‘nother can of worms…….

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        I think I may have just wee’d a little in my pants at the mere thought of what you said coming true!

  • i-Betty

    BAM! How’s that for a tightly packaged legal response? KERPOW!

    *waving a large Babbitt & Co-shaped flag*

  • dagobarbz

    I seem to recall that part of the IRS fallout included “Refunds promptly and cheerfully returned.”
    There are many reasons for the IRS to yank their tax exempt status, and this is one of them.

    • aquaclara

      Ooh, both promptly AND cheerfully. Wow.
      Let’s try that.

  • Observer

    Per request, one evil clown

    • Observer

      ..

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Oy veh.

        • q-bird

          Oh noooo…. Don’t look BTN2! Don’t look!

      • OMG. Warn a girl why don’t you?

      • sugarplumfairy

        Aaaagghh!!

      • FistOfXenu

        And here I thought he couldn’t look any uglier, dumber or scarier. You managed all 3 in 1 pic.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Creepy Clown is jacked up freaking Creepy!!!

        • I never understood why people where afraid of clowns. Suddenly, I get it.

  • California

    Good luck…. these law suits are over-due.

  • Brainslugged

    Bah… disgruntled, defrocked, bitter apostates each and every one of ’em. Hail Miscavige!

  • Jgg2012

    How come Katie could divorce Tom without child custody (or anything else) being arbitrated, but the Garcias are compelled to arbitrate? Think about it: Tom and Katie had a Scientology wedding. They should be bound by Scientology rules, right? There aren’t different rules for celebrities, are there?

    • Sherbet

      Ha! Oh, you’re so funny, jgg.

    • Missionary Kid

      The divorce was a civil matter and had nothing to do with the church. Besides, Katie was well prepared, and had a great capacity to embarrass both Tom and the church. Neither wanted that, so she got what she wanted.

      The refund is a dispute with the church. It is also a civil matter, but the dispute is over the means or even necessity of arbitration for disputes. The Garcias are saying that the arbitration system that Co$ has in place is set up to be unfair

  • FistOfXenu

    Before Disqonnectus completely kicks me off for the evening I need to ask. How do I get Scribd to let me download? I click the download buttons and nothing happens. Thanks.

    • Snippy_X

      Upload something to your account first in exchange. Graph paper or whatever.

      • FistOfXenu

        Thanks. I’ll try that.

  • Bob 74

    One of the many things you all fail to get right is that there is a constitutional rite to be as ecclesiastical as we wish too. Tough luck for you.

    • Espiando

      Bob! You’re back! Good to see you! Glad you still believe that your money-sucking blood-drinking criminal cult actually resembles something remotely “ecclestiastical”. Keep thinking that, Bob. That way, your A To E will go smoothly and you can get your eternity (of debt) back.

      • Bob 74

        My only point of interest being that ecclesiasticalness is a constitutionally-protected rite of being an American.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Busted again ( or still ).

        • I think your only point of interest begins and ends at your anus

          • Bob 74

            Sorry, I’m not rolling like that

        • Espiando

          Tell me where it says that in the Constitution, Bob. And don’t tell me “the First Amendment”, because that isn’t what it says. Does “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” sound familiar? Nowhere in there do I see the Hubbardism “ecclesiasticalness”.

          • Bob 74

            Like I said, you can poke-humor all you wish too.

            • Espiando

              Bob, you don’t need to use Google Translate. Most of us here speak fluent Marcabian. “Poke-humor” indeed…

            • Observer

              I personally don’t find this exchange funny. It’s genuinely tragic.

        • Artoo45

          G Bob, there’s a g in right.

          • Observer

            And rite means something completely different than right.

            • FistOfXenu

              I know about the rule on the web not to feed trolls. Personally I like playing with them. Chuck a stick and watch them fetch it til their tongues hang out. But I always wanted to ask. Is there another rule not to feed a to e’s? How does bob74 turn his pointless bullshit into a usable stat for his a to e? Just wondering.

            • DeElizabethan

              To simplify, one gets in an ethics condition for being bad like looking at a website and asking questions, etc. Part of the lower conditions are to deliver a blow to the enemy, however one can. Another is you do what they tell you they need or want. Like going on blogs, and you can imagine the rest. Then you’ve completed that and move on to other things like give lots of money or service to get thru the ethics conditions and be a good little robot.

          • 1subgenius

            Don’t bother trying to educate him. He knows more than you..
            He’s a Scientologist!
            Rite?

    • Observer

      The problem is that there is nothing remotely ecclesiastical about taking people’s money under false pretenses, like regging multiple people for the full cost of one cross without telling them all the money had already been donated for it, or for taking money from someone who has been led to believe it’s being credited to their account for services to be delivered and then not refunding that money when the services are not delivered. There’s no constitutional “rite” protecting fraud. Fraud does appear to be a Scientology rite, however. (btw, you might want to word clear “right” and “rite”.)

    • sugarplumfairy

      And good luck for you that there is a constitutional right to be a twit..

    • 1subgenius

      You could be rite.

      • Artoo45

        Diet Rite™, oh, I meant Dead Rite™.

      • FistOfXenu

        Could be. But for now he’s a riot of ecclesiasticalness.

        • 1subgenius

          Rite

      • You may be rite. He may be crazy.

        To paraphrase Mr. Joel.

    • I had no idea the Constitution had rites. Are there wafers involved? ‘Cause I don’t do that grape juice crap.

  • Jgg2012

    This is the original Catch-22. In Heller’s novel, you could only get out of flying a war plane if you were crazy. If you didn’t want to fly, you were sane because only crazy people would want to fly, so you had to fly. Substitute “SP” for crazy and “arbitrate” for fly, and you get the Garcia’s dilemma: if they make a complaint, they are SPs and their complaint can’t be heard. Heads we win, tails you lose.

    • Missionary Kid

      That’s the essence of their lawsuit: there’s no way to get a fair ruling under Co$’s refund process.

    • Bob 74

      That is “hardly” the “original” Catch-22, if you can access your bank

      • Bob 74

        I mean reactive/memory

      • Jgg2012

        The phrase comes from the book written in 1962. The comparison is apt; soldiers were told that they would be committed to a term of service, assuming they were fit, then came the bureaucratic loophole. Fresh meat are told refunds are freely granted, there is no disconnection, etc. then are told that they are SPs.

  • kiki dee

    Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant! Thank you for all the testimonials! There were so many and all were great. What further proof do we need that this “church” is a cult that extorts money from it’s members and punishes them with disconnection. Where is the government oversight when we need it???

    • FistOfXenu

      It’s overlooking all the crimes $cientarCONon’s committing.

  • richelieu jr

    The actually charge MORE for students! That has got to be a world first!

  • Remember that Dentist who appealed against a case where he was ordered to pay his employee shit loads for forcing her to undergo scion training…… yeah, well – he lost the appeal, too!

    Oh the lulz are lulzing…. it’s like the judges are finally waking up and smelling the coffee!

    http://www.oregonlive.com/money/index.ssf/2013/04/oregon_appeals_court_denies_be.html

    • SciWatcher

      I just saw that! It makes me so happy…I had to come here and share the joy!

    • John P.

      What is both interesting and sad about this situation is the fact that the guy is probably losing his practice. Here it is almost the end of the month and the newspaper article says that “A recorded message at AWE Dental Spa said the practice is temporarily closed because of a transition, but expects to resume operations sometime in April.” This dentist did what Scientology told him he was supposed to do — recruit staff to courses — and when he followed the instructions to the letter and got his ass sued off in court, losing a third of a million in damages to be paid and probably a like amount in legal fees, what kind of support does he get from the cult? Nothing. There is dead silence out there. And his fellow culties, the “most ethical people on the planet,” what are they doing about his plight? Nothing. Again, crickets. Not even a bake sale to “combat religious discrimination.”

      This is what any other business owner buying into Scientology management principles will get: you’ll be threatened with disconnection (and thus the loss of a major chunk of your customer base) if you disobey the church, and you’ll be sued into oblivion if you follow their rules. And you don’t really get to pick which of these two versions of hell you would prefer once you’ve tasted the poisoned fruit of the WISE vine.

      • Missionary Kid

        It’s a variation of the old dilemma: The lady or the tiger, only it’s the lion or the tiger.

        Whoever connects with Co$ should also buy a big jar of Vaseline because they’re gonna get screwed.

      • Missionary Kid

        It’s a variation of the old dilemma: The lady or the tiger, only it’s the lion or the tiger.

        Whoever connects with Co$ should also buy a big jar of Vaseline because they’re gonna get screwed.

      • hmmmm, I have to disagree about the ‘sad’ part; I’m guessing that the employee involved must have been pushed pretty hard to actually take this guy to court – especially as she knew she was taking on the scions – in other words I’m guessing he must have been quite a scuzzball for the matter to reach trial as I’m sure she had a lot more to lose.

      • Will you stop making fun of Dr Andrew W Engel, DMD, PC! My dentist’s surgery is a dilapidated garage with oil-stained floors compared to Dr Andy’s.

        His ‘Spa’ has statues, double beds with large glasses of complimentary red wine on hand, sofas with large glasses of complimentary red wine on hand, massage parlors presumably with large glasses of complimentary red wine on hand and furnishing and décor giving a new meaning to the word kitsch.

        His office tour must be seen to be believed:

        http://www.awedentalspa.com/meet-us/bend-or-dental-office.html

        My dentist has none of these lavish and tasteful accoutrements.

        Let me see, how far is it from Wellington to Bend, Oregon? Mr Google might know. Ah yes, 7,125 miles. Well I’d have to make an early appointment or I’d be really late getting home.

        Andrew

      • Bob

        John P. good points. The end result of these scenarios where your damned if you do, damned if you don’t is insanity for the clam caught in the middle. The aims of Scientology are now reversed.

  • Anonymookme

    I have a question about the price list. SO members make $50.00/week, give or take. Who the hell other than a few public members with, apparently, way more $$ than common sense pays these prices for the gobbledygook & gibberish? People actually go in debt for this horse shit?

  • L. Wrong Hubturd

    Pardon me while I stuff pieces of my brain back into my head. I just visited Marty’s site and found a comment where one of his folks argues the science of Scientology was being researched by Hubs on other portions of his whole track existence and that’s why his evidence in this lifetime seems so poor. Well goooolllyyy(in my best Gomer Pyle voice), it all makes so much sense now. I mean, how could I have EVER doubted the Tech? Gosh, I feel so stoopid now.

    LRH must have chosen to play a bumbling fool in this incarnation for shits and giggles. Color me impressed! Now, at what port do I board the Breakwinds?

    • FistOfXenu

      That’s depressing L. Wrong. That’s the kind of thing that makes me never read his site. He’s so committed to Liar Ron he’s willing to grab any piece of woowoo to make Hubbard right and everybody else wrong. Next thing you know Marty’s going to tell us the reason LRH was such a fucking jackass is because it was “crazy wisdom”

  • Bruce

    I feel nauseous after reading all that.