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HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

—————- In anticipation of her biggest day in court yet, Laura DeCrescenzo and her attorneys hit the Church of Scientology with 928 pages of new filings —————- Details from 18,000 pages of evidence show how Scientology manipulated a child to keep her working under slave-like conditions —————- A key document describing DeCrescenzo’s unwillingness to have her coerced abortion is missing from the evidence Scientology was ordered to produce By Tony Ortega Wednesday afternoon, Laura DeCrescenzo filed explosive new information in her four-year legal odyssey against the Church of Scientology, submitting 928 pages of new declarations and exhibits in anticipation of a crucial October 23 hearing in her lawsuit against the church which alleges abuse, including allegations that she was forced to have an abortion at only 17 years of age. Key to the new filings is information gleaned from thousands of pages of previously secret files that the church fought mightily to keep under wraps. But on Monday, the U.

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Clearwater Tent Showdown: Scientology Reportedly Getting Ready for Events Next Week

Charlie Frago of the Tampa Bay Times is keeping the Church of Scientology’s plans in Clearwater, Florida under a microscope as church leader David Miscavige prepares for a series of large events.

Yesterday, Frago was like a cat on a hot tin-colored tent with at least three versions of a news story showing up at the Tampa Bay Times website. He reported that the giant “KSW” mural ["Keep Scientology Working"] on Scientology’s massive event pavilion had fallen afoul of Clearwater’s fire marshal, but then said Scientology had managed to mollify the fire department that its draping met fire codes. But then he said the city’s strict signage codes had been violated, and the church was told it would be fined up to $250 a day until it took down the mural.

That’s chump change for Miscavige, and we’ll be interested to see if he caves and brings down the draping, which clearly cost him a pretty penny.

But we’re still asking a bigger question: When is Miscavige going to hold these events? We have some fresh rumors about that, which we have to say are just rumors, but worth publishing, we think.

We want our Clearwater readers to know that we’ve been tipped that the Golden Age of Tech II event will take place Friday night, November 8, and the Super Power Building grand opening event on the following day, November 9, or possibly on Sunday the 10th, or both.

That still leaves the International Association of Scientologists (IAS) annual gala — which the church told the city in August would take place the weekend of November 8-9. UPDATE: We’re hearing from some sources that the IAS gala will take place a week after the Super Power event, perhaps on Saturday, November 16.

As we previously reported, Scientology has asked the city for no permits for these events. (Frago reports that it has a permit for the tent itself through January 21.) That means that the church is not asking the city for street or sidewalk closures, but as city employee Christopher Hubbard explained to us, that wouldn’t prevent Scientology from having events on private property.

If our tip is correct, then on Friday the 8th, Miscavige will hold a celebration of a new product launch which is Phase II of his original 1995 release, The Golden Age of Technology. Outside of Scientology, the changes represented in these “Golden Age” updates mean little. But our sources point out that any new product launch will mean lots of re-doing of expensive processes, and this one includes a new e-meter.

Miscavige needs to get that event out of the way first because so many people from the “outer orgs” have been in Clearwater for weeks preparing for it — and spending money to stay in Clearwater.

Then, it’s time to finally open the Super Power Building, a huge edifice which first began construction in November, 1998. Critics have pointed out not only that the “Flag Building” has been a fundraising magnet — with something like $200 million raised for it — but it also promises something founder L. Ron Hubbard never really intended. A recent leak of the actual “Super Power” processes by Independent Scientologists suggest that the services delivered at the building are rather mundane and repetitive.

That leaves the IAS gala, which has tended to take place in England in October. It’s a celebration of the year’s accomplishments, and it’s when Miscavige bestows new “Freedom Medals” on two or three exemplary Scientologists. Surely it must happen at some time before the New Year’s event, which is a major date on the Scientology calendar of its own.

Time’s running out to get so many big events wrapped up in the coming weeks. We’re looking forward to more reports from Sunny Sands and our other local correspondents.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on October 30, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

 

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  • DamOTclese2

    Solo NOTS! Get your Solo NOTS! here!

    Folks, are you currently on Solo NOTS and are making great case gain and moving Up The Bridge as a Scientologist in good standing but find that you can’t always afford the top quality standard technology that the other guy offers?!

    Well, through all of November only, Top Solo NOTS instructor DamOTclese 2 is offering you all the Solo NOTS you can handle and at a fraction of the cost that the other guy charges.

    That’s right, email me now at DamOTclese@gmail.com to find out how you can take advantage of this limited one-time-only offer!

    At these prices, you would be insane not to!

    – This offer void to all FBI agents, law enforcement officers, district attorneys, journalists, Judges, and any other individual or entity which stops bunko frauds from being sold to gullible marks –

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Sorry, I paid $4 for “SA” and had some fun with that.
      (SA is like Solo NOTS for thetans who can’t afford soup cans and who are way less paranoid)
      And not one thin dime went to LRH or DM!

      • DamOTclese2

        How about if I throw in free shipping? Eh? Eh?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Nope….I already have Prime….;-)

          • DamOTclese2

            Oh! I know what you’re thinking, “How can he afford to sell Solo NOTS at such a low, low cost? There must be a catch!”

            The answer is volume! We sell so much Solo NOTS that our warehouse has a hard time keeping Solo NOTS stocked.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              snorts!

            • Mooser

              Hold for a minute, and he’ll double the offer You just pay separate shipping, handling and postage!

            • SandiCorrena

              It’s the “handling” that’s a real b$%^t! Buyer Beware! ;)

  • Robert Eckert

    Reposting again for RealityScamz since OSA is breaking out the flag-tech. Apparently they have some software bot going that searches the Bunker for his name and down-arrows or flags him every time, almost instantly.

    Reality Scamz

    • 2 hours ago

    I was asked to repost this Protest advice a few more times so here it is today.

    Always have a video camera or regular camera Ready at a Moments Notice.
    If possible go with a more than 1 person
    Park 6-8 blocks out of the downtown area (Not Whole Foods lot)
    Use a BUS you can check the schedule at http://www.psta.net/index.php
    DO NOT USE A TAXI
    Use a different route to enter and exit the area. When leaving take your time stop for coffee or browse a few blocks away. Make some turns and keep eyes open.
    Clearwater PD is well aware of Wearing a Mask, just put it on a few blocks before you get there.
    Consider bringing Water and possible a backpack with a Hat, , Different shirt, Sunglasses
    Knit Cap; You can hide your hair underneath, also Big
    Sunglasses, (if No Mask Wanted)
    They will VIDEO YOU the less of your body they see the Better.
    Google Maps is your friend
    Once you get there even with an Anon do not tell people your real name, they will not be offended.
    After you get there Anon’s (Probably Guy Fawkes Masks) can
    probably give you further information. Guy Fawkes masks can be gotten at http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb

    You can also go to Why We Protest, if you have trouble finding information ask a MOD

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      your are a public servant, dear RobertE ~

    • KJP in Portland

      Thank you, Sir.

      • Reality Scamz

        Do you not like list I believe you do they have been Flagging me. Here is my Sea Org Protest list Start Short and to the point;

        Communication is the Universal Solvent..Why Will You Not Talk To Me?
        Are you Getting what they Promised when you Joined?
        Sea Org you are not Even Clear
        What if We Are Telling The Truth & Scientology is Lying? Dare you Ask?
        When was Your Last Lib
        When was Your Last Phone Call Home that Was Not Monitored
        Why Do You Have To Leave Your Mail Enveloped Open, So OSA Can Read it First!
        You are Your Body
        You are Your Mind
        What’s your Retirement Plan? You will Not Just Go & Get Another Meat Body
        Wake UP, Come to Present Time!
        Your Family Misses you
        You Didn’t Pull It In, It Pulled You In
        Homo Novis No you Are Just Like Us
        The Truth Is Free
        You Can Do Whatever You Want
        You Can Say Whatever You Want
        Doubt Is not a Crime
        Your Doubts Are Valid
        1-866-X SEA ORG
        Why Are So Many Declared
        Don’t Route Out, Just Blow..Help is Available…We Love you
        Why is OSA Watching You and Not Us? We Love You OSA Want to send you to Ethics if You Look
        Why Do You Only Make $50 Per Week for 16-18 hr days/ or 50 Cents Per Hour
        Don’t You Want To Have a Wife, a Car, A House, Children like A Normal Life

        OSA Department 20

        Do You Enjoy All
        Those Sec Checks?

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          wow. to the most dedicated,

          scientology gives this shit, that you enumerate. i’s like treason — against their own people’s humanity.

    • Straight Diet of Kerbango

      What’s the deal with Taxis?

      • Robert Eckert

        Some say they have been known to report back to Scientology about who they picked up and where they took them.

        • aquaclara

          This is accepted as fact from friends I know. Sad, isn’t it? Thank you for posting the fair warning for everyone to see.

      • Missionary Kid

        Taxis have to report where they’re picking up someone as well as destinations. Some are supposedly driven by $cions. If you’re unlucky enough to get one of them, your efforts at concealing your I.D. could unravel quickly.

  • Ardent

    I have a serious question – and I mean really serious. Has anyone here met or interacted with Miscavige? If so, is he insane? I mean, truly insane? My impression is that he is truly a sociopathic nutter, but I really would like some first-hand comments. Is this OK to ask? Many thanks.

    • sugarplumfairy

      You should order Marc Headley’s book “Blown for Good..” miscavige figures prominently..

      • Seannie5

        how did Marc manage to get that book published without being sued by DM

        • Eclipse-girl

          DM did not want to have to testify.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Can’t sue if it’s truth..

          and miscavige has tried other ways to get control of Marc’s book, and very recently.. About a year ago, it was big news at the bunker and resulted in a pretty classic post by Tony.. I’m at work and can’t search it for you, but maybe someone else can, or I will tonight when I get home..

          • Seannie5

            oh thanks, I didn’t know about that.

    • Mooser

      “My impression is that he is truly a sociopathic nutter”

      Those rare few who know the real Macavige say he’s a sparkling raconteur, a bon vivant, a real boulevardier and is never seen without a white carnation in his boutonniere. He is redolent of aged brandy and fine cigars, and snaps an imperative riding crop against his jodhpurred thigh. He is always at the throbbing vortex of events. Just your average, all-American cult leader and regular guy. And he has the piquant and picaresque patina only endowed upon those men suspected of murdering their wives.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        Moose- you are so weird but I’m getting used to it now. That– is funny !

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I think he is fuckin funny as hell.!

          • Mooser

            My intention, as of always, is to bring a smile to careworn lips, but without bringing the tiniest blush of shame to maidenly cheeks.

            • GlibWog

              Shit you failed..I’m blushing..

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            I hear you, Bury — it just took me a few months to “get it.”
            The Moose is Loose !!!

          • Mooser

            “Shit you failed…”

            Yes, and will fail again, ignominiously, if “ignominious” is the right word, many times before it’s all over. But I maintain it is a laudable goal, and I will endeavor to achieve it, if only for one brief shining moment.

        • Mooser

          “Moose- you are so weird but I’m getting used to it now.”

          I’m glad at least one of us is sanguine.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Word clear: sanguine. Bloody well said, Moose !!!
          ” adjective 1. cheerfully optimistic , hopeful, or confident: a sanguine disposition ; sanguine expectations. 2. reddish; ruddy: a sanguine complexion. 3. (in old physiology) having blood as the predominating humor and consequently being ruddy-faced, cheerful, etc. 4. bloody; sanguinary. 5. blood …

      • Sibs

        With that description he kinda reminds me of this guy.

      • Narapoid

        OK, Mooser, ya had me at sparkling raconteur…

      • Guest

        You do have a way with the language, Monsieur Mooser.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Ardent – when you’ve seen even 10% of what there is to see on the InterWebz, you will come to know: Dave Savage Miscavage is a true sociopath. Beyond doubt. A walking psychopath. A demented, degraded being, the likes of which none of us (probably) has ever had to face-to-face with.

      • Mooser

        “A demented, degraded being, the likes of which none of us (probably) has ever had to face-to-face with.”

        I am so not going to make a MIL joke here.

        • Rita Gregory

          I think you just did. :)

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        And Marc, and Jeff, and Amy, and Val, and oh shit…this could go on…but I need a nap
        Night peeps!

        • Eclipse-girl

          sleep well.

        • KJP in Portland

          Good night. Sweet dreams!

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          si, Bury, was just sayin’ the ‘commenters’ not the upper echelon, so to speak !
          They are well-known. Others, like Ruby, are unknown (to me). Night ~

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Of course it is OK, but those who interacted with him,…. may not be on here right this minute!
      But there are plenty who meet the criteria you asked for and I can think of a half dozen right off the top of my head who have been physically abused by him who frequent this blogl

    • Eclipse-girl

      I have seen Marc and Claire Headley and jefferson Hawkins each comment here. In fact, Marc was on today. I can’t say that I have noticed Marty Rathbun or Mark Rinder, but I do think Tony O is in contact with each of them.

      I would say that DM is a narcissist with sociopathic tendencies. If you want to call him a sociopath with narcissistic tendencies who am I to argue?

      The man definitely has Personality disorders.

      • TXCowgirl

        A narcissistic sociopath with borderline personality disorder.

        • Guest

          Sounds about right to me.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Guest, darlin’? How did you wind-up with Ms Poison Ivy’s avatar? is what I don’t unnahstan’ at the moment…

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          There it is, TxC.
          His diagnosis. In spades.

        • Artoo45

          I’ve written here before about my 12 years with a Borderline. Miscavige is a Borderline. I can smell them now.

          • TXCowgirl

            So sorry you spent 12 years walking on eggshells. My step-monster has BPD. Luckily, I was out of the house and out of college before she married into the family. Sadly, my dad is still dwelling in the web. Artoo, now you can spill the milk and no one’s going to bite your head off.

            • Rita Gregory

              Or slap you and tell you to stop bawling because they didn’t hit you THAT hard.

            • TXCowgirl

              Makes me sad. Sorry lovely Rita.

            • Rita Gregory

              Aww, thanks hon. It’s all good now that was a long time ago and my brothers and sisters broke the chain of violence being passed down through the family. Also recognized signs of mental illness and got help for it instead of defiantly insisting there was nothing wrong. :)

            • TXCowgirl

              Good for you and your sibs, both breaking the cycle and being pro-active about mental illness. My sister and I have done the same thing. Our mom was a diagnosed, but unmedicated, bipolar until after we were both married with children. She finally came to accept her illness 15 years ago, at the age of 65, and is now a loud proponant of proper mental treatment. Finally, she’s even a fantastic Granny. The mother I grew up with has no resemblance to the mom I have now and I think of them as two distinctly different people. I now love having lunch with her every Tuesday. Cheers to you and yours for taking a stand!

            • aquaclara

              Sorry, Rita….so very sorry that you had this. I hope things are a bit better now.

            • Rita Gregory

              Happened many years ago when I was a child. It was rough with a bipolar parent who didn’t think there was anything wrong with him and wouldn’t go get help and a mom who was afraid of him. It’s all good now though. He is in assisted living since being diagnosed with alzheimers and bipolar. Mom finally had the courage to leave him after 60 years of marriage and my husband and I live with her. It’s been good for her to see all men are not abusive controlling assholes, my hubby treats her like a queen he is a great guy. I am just grateful I got the lesson to NEVER get involved with a man like my dad, instead of repeating my mom’s mistake. :)

            • Casabeca

              Sorry for you and Artoo, and Rita too! In my experience BPD people will get on your last nerve and then jump up and down on it, then maybe cry because no one loves or understands them. Exhausting!

            • Artoo45

              Stop Walking on Eggshells was the way out for me. I believe that book and the person who recommended it to me saved my life. I escaped from the cult of two.

          • Straight Diet of Kerbango

            This is basically a re-post of my earlier comments with a few additions.

            In my opinion, his behaviors can be fully accounted for by sociopathy (antisocial PD): a stable pattern of impulsivity, violent outbursts, criminality, absence of remorse, deceit on a daily basis, cons, disregard for safety of others. There is is popular myth that most sociopaths are highly functional, cold, calculating machines easily to manipulate people to their own benefit. In reality, the natural history of the majority of sociopaths is impaired control of their behaviors, inability to maintain employment, getting caught by authorities, burning bridges, often developing a substance use disorder, etc. “Desperate Hapless Loser” is the typical picture. A possible co-occurring alcohol use disorder may be contributing.

            At best, he is a malignant narcissist on the border of frank sociopathy. The antisocial PD diagnosis would be a slam dunk if childhood behaviors indicated conduct disorder as a kid. My guess is that the highly rigid structure of a cult upbringing contained many disruptive/reckless behaviors. Borderline PD is a possibility, but much less likely in a male. To confidently diagnose BPD in a male you would need more characteristic features of BPD like chronic suicidality, desperate attempts to avoid abandonment, identity disturbance, splitting, and self harm behaviors. The criteria of BPD that DM does meet are the ones that overlap with ASPD. As DM is male and the diagnosis of ASPD has good validity and reliability, one can make the diagnosis with pretty good confidence based on documentation of his life.

            I can relate to the comments about the unpleasantness of interacting with him. Just watching the Nightline interview, he comes off as forceful, tense, antagonistic, evasive, and inauthentic. Christ, he is less relatable than Assad, Gaddafi or Saddam Hussein.

            Again, this is speculative. I have not personally examined this asshole.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              yes, I’d drop Borderline PD, as you put it, so well. And I, personally, don’t need anything other than the little piece of humand garbage the degraded being known as Dave Miscavage is a p s y c h o p a t h. And *must* be stopped. And *will* be stopped. As the little shit Miscavige has *stomped on* the hearts and loves and lives and emotions of ***thousands*** of human beings, world-over.

            • Artoo45

              Thanks for that thoughtful, in-depth appraisal. The contours of personality disorders shift like sand, even at the diagnostic level. My ex didn’t exhibit the full set of BPD behaviors, but then again, very few do. Miscavige is way more narcissistic. I’m willing to bet he was on the road to this before he ever met a Scientologist. That said, the setting in which he found himself is a veritable narcissism generator, so the end product of the Tiny Terror running The Cult we know today is a kind of chicken/egg situation.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        An out-and-out pyschopath, EG. Don’t hold back.!

        • Eclipse-girl

          IIRC, one difference between sociopaths and psychopaths is there ability to function in the “real world.” I know that is questionable with DM. I am being generous with my opinion.

          (also I have experience with a person with sociopathic tendencies)

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            yes, zacktly, which make him a savage psychopath. As he functions within society and makes the rules bend his way. up to a point. So- a psychopath, Dave McSavage.

      • Missionary Kid

        I think that he’s also passive-aggressive. If he thinks he can gain something from someone he has a measure of control over, the attacks. If he thinks he can’t control them, he plays normal.

        • Casabeca

          Which is classic abuser behavior…see who will take it, or who is too nice to call it out.

          • Missionary Kid

            The other alternative is that he’s seeing who is to afraid to call out or retaliate.

            • Casabeca

              I like that idea better MK!

            • Missionary Kid

              It’s not much better. It’s all a part of the process of establishing dominance.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          yo, a downvote here, MK, did you catch it?
          Maybe a wayward ‘thumb’ but still …

          • Missionary Kid

            I didn’t notice. Could be a fat finger, but in this case, I don’t care. Thanks.

      • Candygram

        Yeah, I think there was a description in Lawrence Wright’s book… of MissCabbage as a tween … that indicates he was a sadistic, tyrannical little f*ck even then, that he rode herd on his family and already had a reputation for physical violence. He found $cientology the perfect conduit and amplifier for his sadistic-tyrannical-little-f*ckness and ran with it.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          and parlayed that into control of $1 billion. And manipulation and laying-the-hurt-on to thousands of loved ones and family.

        • Seannie5

          look at how he treated his own niece! I’m not sure about his relationship with his parents and sister but to allow your niece to have such a shitty childhood under your watch … ugh.

          • Eclipse-girl

            I think Shelly did her best to look out for Jenna, but even Shelly didn’t really protect her.

    • Ruby

      When I met him, I felt like he did not give a $#+ about who I was. At a later, more social event, I had another “opportunity” to re-introduce myself to him. I was still in the cherch at the time, so you would think I would welcome that opportunity. I found myself feeling truly repelled. I literally turned my back hoping he would not recognize me. And again, this was while I was still in! The guy has creepy vibes in his space.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        Holy shit, Rubylove – you have been in the belly of the beast, face-to-face with the FUCKING MONSTER!!! I can’t imagine …

        • Ruby

          Well, my face was about a foot above his. :)

          • AintMizBahavin

            shit i just spit out my apple juice laughing at your post roflmaoo hilarious

          • GlibWog

            Bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhahaha

          • Jo

            Lol

      • Guest

        Trust those vibes, Ruby. That inner voice – that’s exactly what Scientology tries to shut you off from!
        For whatever reason (prob hypersensitive due to accident of nature & an odd childhood) I seem to have a strong track record in watching celebs/actors etc on screen and correctly guessing their personalities once I meet them.
        Have not met COB (hope I never will unless I’m producing a documentary about his time in prison) but I get very strong “weakness” and “hidden rage” vibes from his public speeches. I think he’s probably a coward of über-cowardly dimensions. He has that booming (auto-tuned) voice and the whole semi-rehearsed automaton public speaker thing going on the surface, but the biggest vibe I get from him is weakness and fear.

        • Ruby

          Oh yes, I DO trust those vibes and inner voice. And even more now!

      • Eclipse-girl

        Gier Isene also found him repellent.

        • DeElizabethan

          Right, an excellent story on his blog.

        • Ruby

          Yes…really interesting reaction, eh? He was walking by himself near me and I had the perfect opportunity to chat. Instead I felt this “whoa…negative space, don’t go there ” feeling. So I turned around to get more distance hoping he didn’t see me. I’m sure he wouldn’t have even known who I was, but, didn’t want to take that chance. And this is/WAS the leader of my cherch! How telling is that?!

          • Eclipse-girl

            Its that gut feeling that you need to listen to. And you did. You escaped.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Infinitely telling, dear Ruby. Thank you ~

          • TXCowgirl

            Did you also feel an icy cold breeze pass through your body?

            • Ruby

              No…was having a cocktail. :)

      • KJP in Portland

        Wow…I’m glad you’re here today, Ruby. The stories you must have to share. I am in awe! (((hugs)))

      • aquaclara

        Ruby, your story is a chilling tale of cult culture. Ikes. I am so, so, so glad you’re here with us, out, and sharing your experiences, far away from this scary stuff. Because you have been so candid, I know there will be so many others who will see themselves here. Mostly, I would just like to share a slice of cheesecake and a fairly large glass of wine with you, so you can relax, chat among friends and feel safe.

        Let me know when you’re in the neighborhood, so we can do this! In the meantime, stay safe and take care.

        • Ruby

          I would love the company, cheesecake and drinks!
          And, I only hope that those under the radar reading here, and I know there are many, do know they are not alone in their thoughts and are able to open up as well. It cleanses the soul to cut loose and talk sometimes. And this is a wonderful group of friends here…and crazy…just my kind! :)

          • aquaclara

            Wonderful and crazy! Yup, that is very much us. Maybe they will see how wonderful it is to have good friends!

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          What aguaclara said, dear Ruby.

          Thanks, aquaC ~

    • GlibWog

      He is a Short Ugly Fucked Up Asshole.

      • Missionary Kid

        C’mon, don’t hold back!

      • GlibWog

        And I am a professional…haahhhahahah ..

        He is an absolutely despicable human being. And Hubs isn’t off the hook for starting this Evil Cult.

        ( Sorry if I offended anyone.. ) I loathe him.

        • KJP in Portland

          I more than loathe both of them and the long trail of agony and despair they left in their wake… (((hugs)))

        • Jo

          Hubs will never be off the hook. We will get him in the long grass.

          • GlibWog

            NEVAH… They will be putting my ashes on top of the Fireplace before I forgive him…

            and you can take THAT to the Bank..

    • media_lush

      you should google the Marty Rathbun videos where he discusses Battlefield Earth and his description when he was with Cruise and tiny fists discussing Travolta’s role in it [he blamed him for the failure]… it’s on Tony’s VV blog as well; and Marc Headley’s story of life on Int [also on Tony's VV site] throws up some good first hand stuff.

    • Victoria Pandora

      I havent met him, so I don’t qualify.
      But I do wonder, if he hadn’t been thrown in to a cult, what he may have been like.I look back to my time on staff, and what I was becoming.
      I remember sitting at my desk (at three AM)… going through a stack of files. And truely feeling responsible for every single one of those people and their “agonised future”.
      And when I was put in charge of the whole (Div. VI) the area responsible for bringing in new people, the pressure was immense.

      I have no way of knowing what Davey”s real state of mind is.
      But something has driven him mad.
      And we all know what he has been doing for almost the whole of his life.

      This won’t be the first time I have said I feel sorry for Miscavige.

      • KJP in Portland

        I’m truly sorry for what you went through and have experienced. Bless you for being here and having the courage to walk away from that nasty cult.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        I hear you, VictoriaP – and am so grateful for your sharing your “reality” at the moment you were in service to this immensely anti-humanity $cientology Inc. CULT.

        Your slavery ! is what hits me. Sitting at your desk at 3 FUCKING A.M. in the morning ! working your arse off ! feeling *responsibility* for the eternities of those people; and I’m going GO HOME dear! GET SOME FUCKING SLEEP dear! REST UP and come back to the battle when you ARE REFRESHED ! Then the pressure became off-the-charts IMMENSE in Div6. And that was on you ! Not the midget.

        I love you and at the same time I can say to you spare me your pity for the monster sociopath that is dave miscavige. He is unworthy of ANY expression of sympathy / empathy / compassion / understanding. NONE.

        The torture. The trauma. The untold agonizing moment-to-moment reality of people like Lori. Like Monique.

        FUCK THAT! NO QUARTER!! THE MONSTER MISCAVIGE MUST FALL !!! AND SHALL FALL !!!!

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Yes, VictoriaP. What KJP said. In spades.
          I’m sorry I took off on a rant. KJP’s comment snapped me back to reality.

        • KJP in Portland

          Hear, hear. NO QUARTER for that little deluded bastard when his time comes (and, brother it WILL). 3 upvotes for AD!

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            uh, dude — no, you wanted to say “30 Upvotes for AD !” See ?!?

    • Reality Scamz

      It’s quite probably he will not be seen he has 6-8 full time bodyguards along with hordes of osa flag sec’s

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        that many, eh? I’d heard about his sec staff, but I dint think up to 8 full-time b-guards. And his RTC synchophant Retinue. Wow- yes, with a billion dollars at your command, that kind of makes for a huge arsenal of weaponry at ones disposal to fight all the “entheta” against him. So– I’m projecting a huge effort from him, with that kind of dough at hand, to assault back, and make some kind of “stand.”

        • KJP in Portland

          Someday, one of those big, goon bodyguards is going to hit back at Dimwit Dave, and it’s going to hurt.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            no, KjP, that ain’t gonna happen. They are making the biggest bucks they have *ever* made in their pitiful lives, by bodyG’ing the midget. They won’t ever strike back at Davey.

      • media_lush

        doesn’t history show us that at least half the time dictators have been assassinated the fateful blow has come from their bodyguards and/or closest council; he’d be foolish to trust anyone….. oh, hang on – he doesn’t, lulz!

        • KJP in Portland

          Most recent one I remember of a major nation: Indira Gandhi (1984) assassinated by her own bodyguards. We (the carrier ENTERPRISE) were on station in the Indian Ocean at that exact time. We had to stay there another month as our intelligence people didn’t know if the Soviets would also try and make a move into Pakistan via Afghanistan and gain valuable southern seaports. It was a very tense month in 1984.

    • Illinoisian

      Go to this video, “Geir Isene on Scientology” and skip ahead to the point 22 minutes into the piece for Isene’s first hand account of meeting Miscavige. (About five and a half minutes of the interview.)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7QOAUcqyYc

      Interesting account of the situation and his (Isene’s) reaction.

  • media_lush

    for those of you who might be interested I have put up the scans that teloj kindly sent me from the Australian magazine ‘New Idea’ where Tommy Girl apparently wants another baby with Katie on my blog http://scientologybollocks.blogspot.co.uk

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Love your blog, M_L
      great stuff !!

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        There is *no doubt*, m_L — you *are* the man in the EU.
        I <3 you and what you do, dude ~

        • media_lush

          I’ve come across the photo of Juliet Lewis fucking that celeb photographer with the 70′s glasses….. it’s seriously XXX explicit …. am still considering whether I should post it on my blog

          • jeff

            You mean she’s out 2-D and all the fringes of the internet know? (and It’s Juliette)

          • Robert Eckert

            Juliette Lewis is really a tangential character.

            • jeff

              She sure was wacky on that BBC documentary when all the celebs were trotted out.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Dude– now is the time. We are coming on 2014 — can you fucking believe it? — so, I say DO IT !!!

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      I like your blog but I am having trouble getting started at the trolling. Could you add a quick icon link to make the trolling easier there?

      • media_lush

        not 100% sure what you mean

        • Robert Eckert

          He means what KJP said

    • KJP in Portland

      LOL…I see how it is. I tried to comment but I got round-looped back to Tony’s page. Did I miss something in the process? Great page you have!

      • media_lush

        …. blogger was down in certain areas a while back…. anyway I regard the site more as a visual record with my own distinct bias rather than a commentating platform as I do all my commentating here … the few times people made comments I pointed them to this site… but thanks anyway

        • KJP in Portland

          That’s fine. It will be a fun read!

      • media_lush

        I test posted a comment and it worked okay…. think it might have been a temporary glitch

  • Jo

    Last day of Foctober folks, I think it’s been a great month. I know you hate the trolls but I want to hug them, pet them, squeeze them and call them George.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Oh Jo ~ LoL — thanks for sharing. :-)

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I love trolls too. I am like Kirstie and they are my lemurs!!!

      • Jo

        Can we keep them?

    • Missionary Kid

      Where I live, it’s still the next to the last day.

      • Jo

        In Northern Ireland were in future time wise but you got movie Gravity weeks before before us. Anyway happy Foctober and Halloween folks.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I saw that movie on vacation meh!

          • Reality Scamz

            BTN I just started my protest statement list you may want to get a copy.

          • Jo

            Bury, any movie in space is good? Haven’t seen it but I love my space movies, Moon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1182345/ and 2001 are some of my fav movies. Say no more it’s hard enough getting the hubby to leave the house without the dog.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              then you must simply go by thyself, dear Jo – and see the dang thing. RIght away, this week, you hear? Cuz it is simply the grandest movie taking place in space, ever — and is the ‘next step’ after 2001 A Space Odyssey. So leave hubby belching and farting at home, and Go ! See ! It !

      • KJP in Portland

        MK…where you’re at, are you gonna get any kids tomorrow night? I project that we get about 3…lol!

        • Missionary Kid

          None here. I’ve got other things to do, so I’m not going to be home.

  • SopranoAscends

    Speaking of mysterious buildings and tight lips, we’ve got this bit of oddness on the SF Bay.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57609509-93/san-franciscos-bay-barge-mystery-floating-data-center-or-google-glass-store/

    • KJP in Portland

      (((hugs))) Hoorah for the SF Opera! (best I ever saw was ‘Mefistofele’ in 1989 with Gabriela Beňačková)

      • SopranoAscends

        I saw Falstaff recently with Bryn Terfel. Well done! So, what do you make of this barge that rumors say Google is building ?

        • KJP in Portland

          I don’t know what a ‘glass store’ is. Google may be starting to make some sort of (mobile) platforms for their connectivity. There are many waterways in the U.S. and worldwide that would accommodate a barge this size. Perhaps it’s on the up-and-up that they’re doing this to remain connected in the event of a natural disaster, or to get service into otherwise inaccessible areas.

          And, as you know, the San Andreas and Hayward faults are right there, so they could be using a little foresight. OR…maybe the NSA or other government agency is subcontracting with them to build mobile data centers for natural disasters or national defense?

          • Jimmy Threetimes

            The “glass” the article is referencing is Google Glass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

            • KJP in Portland

              I just read that and saw the ‘glasses’. Interesting. What’s next being developed. Wow…

          • SopranoAscends

            Google HQ is heer, which I’m sure you know.. NPR commented that one of the rumors a was floating data center, using Bay water to cool things. When The Coasties boarded the thing today, they had to sign non-disclosure forms about keeping the deal, whatever it is, from the public. The “glass store” is for a product which looks like a shiny version of Geordi La Forge eye gear.

        • John P.

          Most fun Bryn Terfel performance ever was his solo on “Rule Britannia” on the Last Night of the (BBC) Proms, 2008. The sport coat, with the Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Island and Union Jack flags is an absolute classic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWz9MrHskk. Sarah Connolly’s costume for the same song at the Last Night the following year, where she gave a wonderfully smirking performance, was even better, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5Nbp_gmgQ

          • SopranoAscends

            Likee!

      • aurora50

        did you ever go visit the Ideal Org in downtown Portland?

        I am sorry to have missed it.

        here is Marc Bunker the day after the opening, charming the director quite handsomely:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMPeX2blT9E

        the comments at this article on a local business journal are interesting, as well:
        http://djcoregon.com/dailyblog/2012/10/05/church-of-scientology-project-out-of-money/

        What may have been missed in all the commentary on that day, is that David Miscavige
        http://www.scientology.org/david-miscavige/churchopenings/grand-opening-scientology-ideal-organization-portland.html

        chose to come to town on the same day as the Dalai Lama!
        http://www.dalailamaportland2013.net/schedule/saturday-may-11/

        • KJP in Portland

          Aurora, I have been so insanely busy during the day that Friday will be the first chance I get to go downtown. My situation is such, that I live far east of Downtown and work north of Downtown. It’s a special trip to get Downtown, but it’s on my list of to-do’s within a short period of time. I will take pictures and add commentary as soon as I get there!

          • aurora50

            Cool!

        • Robert Eckert

          The contrast between the Dalai Lama packing a football stadium and Davey having to shoop in a crowd was remarked upon at the time.

          • KJP in Portland

            The Dalai Lama is light years above a Midget named Dave. Light Years. May the Dalai Lama live to be 100!

          • aurora50

            Here in Portland, the local news ignored DM and his appearance…it was ‘news to me’ — just in the last three months — as I began to understand the extent of the CoS ‘pollution’.

        • Straight Diet of Kerbango

          I have to say, Gwen Barnard came off as fairly reasonable here. Is $cientology PR trying to move away from public bull-baiting tech as epitomized by Mary Demoss?

          • aurora50

            I posted this all because of what you noticed (tho have no knowledge of reference to Mary Demoss); the first few times I watched her interaction with Mark B, I stopped within a minute or so because I found her so creepy.

            I decided to ‘face my fear’ of her and watch the whole thing…and realized quickly that Mark B was totally charming her! It will be interesting to observe her history with the CoS in the next few years…

            • Robert Eckert

              Compared to Mary (who has reportedly blown since this video), Gwen was a model of civility:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H1QsS5umno

            • Straight Diet of Kerbango

              She is one of most compelling villains in this whole story. Her behavior was so utterly repulsive. I keep searching for new developments about her, but it has been pretty quiet.

    • TXCowgirl

      Might it eventually be covered by an oversized signage tarp?

      • SopranoAscends

        Wonder if there is one available?

    • Captain Howdy

      “we’ve got this bit of oddness on the SF Bay”

      HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa…HAH!

      • SopranoAscends

        I’ll re-frame the comment. Now that Oracle won the America’s cup with their stupid mylar cats, we have another circus on the SF Bay:Team Google.
        More eccentricity, which we tolerate with amusement. On the other hand, the Coasties are not amused. :-)

        • jeff

          Yes. The AC was a colossal waste of the citizens’ money. And Google Glass? Might as well wear a sign that you’re a giant jerk!

  • Reality Scamz

    Starting my own list for Sea Org We Love You

    Communication is the Universal Solvent..Why Will You Not Talk To Me?
    Are you Getting what they Promised when you Joined?
    Sea Org you are not Even Clear
    What if We Are Telling The Truth & Scientology is Lying? Dare you Ask?
    When was Your Last Lib
    When was Your Last Phone Call Home that Was Not Monitored
    Why Do You Have To Leave Your Mail Envelop Open, So OSA Can Read it First!
    You are Your Body
    You are Your Mind
    What’s your Retirement Plan?
    Your Family Misses you
    You Didn’t Pull It In, It Pulled You In
    Homo Novis No you Are Just Like Us
    The Truth Is Free
    You Can Do Whatever You Want
    You Can Say Whatever You Want
    Doubt Is not a Crime
    1-866-X SEA ORG

    Why Are So Many Declared
    Don’t Route Out, Just Blow..Help is Available…We Love you

    • AsthmaticDwarf

  • Reality Scamz

    If any former members of Sea Org wish to chime in with ideas for Peaceful Protest Sayings Please Do.
    For any still In Scientology members we love you too.
    Remember;
    LRH wrote KSW
    GATII is NOT KSW.
    The above is an Alter-Is a High Crime in Scientology. The Sayings need to Short, Sweet & 2 the Point.

    You Only have Seconds With Sea Org ( the poor young people who work like slaves)
    Possibly some resources could be put to creating quick sayings for future Newbie Protestors at CLW

    OSA you cannot fight a peaceful protest accept it the Message will still get out.

    Thank you to any who participate.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Yes! dear RealityS. Yes!

  • Ruby

    I just had a chance to see the news report from Tampa news tonight. The Mayor makes no secret of how irritated he is with the cherch. Great PR. What a way to go guys…really getting the community to know how “ethical” you are and how much you “care” .

    • KJP in Portland

      I’m beginning to believe that the church has thoroughly worn out its welcome with the City of Clearwater. Bravo, Clearwater!

      • Reality Scamz

        They did that when they sneaked into town it has been a long process.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          1976. Thirty-seven (37) years now …

          • Mark

            Thirty-seven years too long:

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      Yes, he seems irritated, yet ineffectual. He doesn’t seem to have a solid grasp of what’s going on or he thinks he’s powerless to stop it.

      • Reality Scamz

        I have personally spoken to the man he is quite frustrated. However he has to work within the framework of the law unlike scientology

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          But that’s grand, RS, that you and ‘the cause’ have a voice into the mayor’s office. That can only help the City administration get a better handle on the *level-of-game* they must bring to bear against the cult that hides behind “religious freedom” shield. *So* grand that you are there.

        • Jimmy Threetimes

          Where I live you couldn’t put up an unapproved, above-ground pool without people in orange vests coming to shut down your Saturday afternoon project. Where are the people in orange vests hovering over these contractors every move? Send in the goon squad, shut the shit down. You’re the fricken Mayor.

          • Guest

            Problem is, they have that damned “Freedom of Religion” to hide behind.

            “It’s a religious symbol.” Boo hoo. Those hypocrites.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              The orange-vested ones respect no religion and show no mercy. Their only creed: SHUT ‘ER DOWN, BOYS!

            • KJP in Portland

              It’s a religious eyesore! And, I think the IRS is getting poised and ready to strike some month or a year or two away…

            • Guest

              IRS won’t do anything – neither will FBI – unless these civil cases (Garcias’, Mosey’s, Narconon, Laura De) either get great verdicts and/or produce some stunning evidence. I do think it will happen – just the Fed isn’t going to spend any of its own money/personpower on CO$. They will wait until the heavy lifting is all done and then they will swoop in and pick up where the civil litigation left off.

          • KJP in Portland

            Ha! You must be in Portland too! Every remodel of a house requires a porta-shitter out front now. Makes it not worth living in city limits anymore. Getting way too whacked out.

  • DamOTclese2

    OT: Another good NarCONon Exposure Web Site has been added to the Crackpots list of web sites. :)

  • Captain Howdy
    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Poor birds fans! Oh, ThDnE and all the Saint Louie fans – not this year, kiddos !
      Cap’n is playing Ann-Margrets “Bye Bye Birdie” for ya’alls ! (sorry for chucking but ’tis dang funny ya’all)

      • Captain Howdy

        P.S – Dammmm, Ann-Margret was HOT!

        • KJP in Portland

          Even at 73, she is still LOVELY! She should have been included last night when someone listed their ‘all-time’ babes. Ann-Margret will be immortal!

    • KJP in Portland

      Ann-Margret…sigh…

    • Guest

      YEAH!

  • AsthmaticDwarf

    SOCIAL COMMENT _ ALERT – ALERT. Skip this immediately if you not like American game of baseball. Or social comments.

    To Sherbet dearie and Cap’n Howdy – CONGRATULATIONS ! The biggest 1 year comeback in Baseball history — the Boston Red Sox 2013, World Champions, World Series winners! (dang! – ((me a yankees fan)) )

    • Captain Howdy

      Xenu Bless You.

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      You sound exactly like a die-hard Yankees fan.

    • And I don’t rent cars!

      I don’t want sports but under the circumstances… here’s my contribution to getting the Bunker’s folks’ attention to your news. Even I have heard of the Boston Red Sox! And since I was a child in another country at that, so this is Big News indeed!

    • Guest

      (I’m originally a Bostonian as well, AD!)

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        … and, Guest … so … then … well … — … congrats, world series 2013 …

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        ‘cept you Poison Ivy and *not Guest* so that is like 2 completely different entities, uhm so to speak, that one has to deal with. And me all confused. And RobertE., bless his heart, tried to ‘splain things to me; how your picture got attached to Guests posts; and well it was a bit beyond my ability to uhm like “get it” so I’m like going, What the Frig is Going On Here ?!? — whew!

        • Robert Eckert

          No, this is not Poison Ivy. Poison Ivy is marked Guest in gray.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Dang !, RobertE !! Me am color blind. So I will never know who is whom on the Bunker in this instance !

            Woe. Is me.

  • L. C. Spencer
  • edge

    Congratulations Red Sox!

  • Captain Howdy

    Hey Sherb

    Congratulations

    And get well soon.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Sherbie, dear ~ your guys are the best dang baseball team in the world! World Series Champions 2013, the Boston Red Sox !! Please get well soon ~

    • Rita Gregory

      Congrats Captain and Sherbert!

    • Guest

      GO SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Boston Proud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • KJP in Portland

    CONGRATULATIONS BOSTON RED SOX!

  • Captain Howdy

    Goodnight before I pass out

    Red Sox Rule & Happy Halloween

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wj_lxFAVhM

    • stillgrace2

      Good night, Captain. Medias Rojas de Boston! Yah!

    • KJP in Portland

      Goodnight Captain, thanks again for all your fine posts!

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Interesting post in the comments on Mike Rknder’s blog today – they don’t have enough scilons so are recruiting paid actors…

    http://www.starnow.com/Casting-Calls/Models-wanted/Print/15_models_actors_needed_for_inhouse_scientology_photo_shoot.htm

    15 Models/Actors needed for In-House Scientology Photoshoot – Florida …Paid. Still photo shoot for a Brochure showing beautiful people walking into reception… We are doing a STILL PHOTO SHOOT for a promotional brochure. This is for In-House Scientology distribution only. We are opening a new building and want to show what it looks like with people in it before the Grand Opening.

    In-House Scientology PHOTO SHOOT… 15 Model/Actors walking into reception, talking with each other, studying in a class room, acting as staff helping public, etc. This is STILL PHOTO SHOOT with 3 photographers. This is being shot in CLEARWATER, FL.Any gender, aged 20 to 40 from Florida, United States

    • Reality Scamz

      Consider sending that one to Charlie Frago at the St Pete Times cfrago@tampabay.com

    • KJP in Portland

      That’s so heartening FMFH to understand and realize that their ranks are decimated that thin already by now. OR their staff (poor souls) look like scarecrows at this juncture. Thank YOU for posting this link. (((hugs)))

      EDIT: @ $150/day ($18.75/hr.) is more than most their staffers make in a month. Sick, sick, evil cult.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      What Reality Scamz said !

    • Snippy_X

      Nice catch!
      Listing created: 29 October 2013

      Applications close: 4 November 2013

      $150/ 8 hr day

      So they pick ‘em on the 5th, shoot on the 6th, shoop photos on the 7th, add to program on the 8th?
      Tight schedule.

    • Reality Scamz

      Always remember with Reporters; The Subject Line is Critical
      Some get a lot of email if the subject line does not catch their eye they just dump it…FYI

    • media_lush

      saw that a few days ago and one thing that stuck out to me was they requested “good-looking” actors….. if an ‘ugly’ actor was to audition and not get the gig could he/she sue on the basis scientology was ugly-ist? (is that even a word, ed?)

      • Robert Eckert

        There are only a few kinds of discrimination that are illegal: race, age, and gender are the big three, a few others depending on the state (sexual orientation, for example, is only in the anti-discrimination statutes of a minority of states; in Florida there is no problem firing someone for being gay). If you want to discriminate against left-handed people, that is no problem anywhere in the US.

        • Reality Scamz

          Robert,, sorry to bother you again however I am starting a one-liner Protestor doc. osa cannot stop peaceful protests these are geared toward the Sea-Org Slaves. You only have seconds with them I do not know how many from this site will protest. However these little sayings have been useful in the past.

          Starting my own list for Sea Org We Love You

          Communication is the Universal Solvent..Why Will You Not Talk To Me?
          Are you Getting what they Promised when you Joined?
          Sea Org you are not Even Clear
          What if We Are Telling The Truth & Scientology is Lying? Dare you Ask?
          When was Your Last Lib
          When was Your Last Phone Call Home that Was Not Monitored
          Why Do You Have To Leave Your Mail Envelop Open, So OSA Can Read it First!
          You are Your Body
          You are Your Mind
          What’s your Retirement Plan?
          Your Family Misses you
          You Didn’t Pull It In, It Pulled You In
          Homo Novis No you Are Just Like Us
          The Truth Is Free
          You Can Do Whatever You Want
          You Can Say Whatever You Want
          Doubt Is not a Crime
          1-866-X SEA ORG
          Why Are So Many Declared
          Don’t Route Out, Just Blow..Help is Available…We Love you

          • Robert Eckert

            I’m way ahead of you, already copied that list onto my Notepad file with your protesting tips.

        • jeff

          Just because there isn’t a law explicitly barring discrimination of a particular class, doesn’t mean you can’t sue (although I concur with EO above, in this instance).

          • Robert Eckert

            Uh, yes, that’s precisely what it means. If there is no law creating any cause of action, you can’t sue.

            • jeff

              Not true.

            • Robert Eckert

              Yes, true. A lawyer who files papers in court that state no legal cause of action can be sanctioned or disbarred. You don’t just get to take up a judge’s time telling him that something happened which you didn’t like, when there’s no law against it.

            • jeff

              See above. You’re wrong.

            • Robert Eckert

              I’m sorry, you just don’t know what you are talking about. In the US, unlike most countries, the default position is “employment at will”: a business can hire or not hire, fire or not fire, for any reason at all unless the government (or, say, a contractual agreement with a union) restricts that free choice.

            • Guest

              Just found something else interesting along those lines – Santa Cruz and San Francisco have “ugly ordinances” and anti-weight discrimination statutes, respectively. Massachusetts tried and failed to pass a bill in 2007 (article below). But the rest pretty much echoes what you’ve been saying:

              http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/06/20/skinny-on-job-discrimination/

              “Ever heard of the “purple hair” also known as the “ugly” ordinance? I promise, I am not making that up, it really exists. In 1992, a Santa Cruz group called the Body Image Task Force ignited the idea behind the ordinance, provoking an intense and “raucous” controversy on the merits of anti-lookism. City Council initially drafted the ordinance to render appearances invisible. The author said, “people ought to be judged on the basis of real criteria, their ability to perform the job or pay the rent,” aiming at equal opportunity not equality.

              Eventually the ordinance passed and prohibited discrimination on the basis of “physical characteristics” defined as a “bodily condition … or characteristic of any person which is from birth, accident or disease, or from any natural physical development, or any other outside event outside the control of that person including physical mannerisms.” In other words, the ordinance proscribed discrimination based only on the aspects of bodily appearances beyond a person’s control. Michigan, the District of Columbia and San Francisco also prohibit discrimination based on height and weight.”

              Seems these laws aren’t getting much traction; problem being, I suppose, due to their subjective nature.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              … zzz… that analysis led to my hanging up the ol’ keyboard — yawn — and saying,

              Hasta la vista, baby ! ‘Night to the Bunker and all.

            • KJP in Portland

              Hang in there, AD! Sleep well!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              and here I am, still standing in the Bunker, 3 hrs later.
              Thank you, dude. Can’t sleep …

            • Robert Eckert

              If there were any municipalities to have such a law, I would have guessed they would be in California, where else? It is of course surprising that Michigan is the only state to have it, given that it is otherwise quite regressive (one of few states left where a landlord can still refuse to rent to a couple for being unmarried, for example).

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I <3 both you guys 4 !

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I <3 both you guys 3 !

            • Reality Scamz

              I spoke with one of the top Labor attorneys in my area actually the best. Florida they can basically do anything they want to and you do not have a case. It was a very humbling experience for me at the time.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I love both you guys again!

            • jeff

              Dude, how do you think we got Brown V. Board in the first place? Separate but equal was the law of the land. Brown sued. It went all the way to the Supreme Court. They won. Not employment discrimination, but you get the picture.

            • Robert Eckert

              The constitution restricts state action, not private action. A private school which rejects any student who is not, say, Orthodox Jewish cannot be sued for that, because they are not the government. Brown was suing the Board of Education of the City of Topeka, who has constitutional obligations which no private employer does.

            • jeff

              I remember people suing in California for HIV employment discrimination and winning BEFORE it was a law. You’re wrong.

            • Robert Eckert

              You are entirely mistaken.

            • jeff

              No, I’m not.

            • Robert Eckert

              I have practiced employment discrimination law. Not for twenty years, but things have not changed for the better. If you are going to tell me that somebody went into court citing no law whatsoever, and won, I simply do not believe you. I am absolutely certain you are misunderstanding what happened. Give me some link to information about what case you are talking about, and I will try to ascertain what actually happened. I assure you that nobody just waltzed into court and whined that something didn’t seem fair.

            • jeff

              OK here’s one for you. Employment discrimination taken to the Supreme Court, in Roberts vs. Evans, (yes, that Roberts) which struck down a law allowing discrimination IN employment:http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Roberts-aided-landmark-case-on-gay-rights-His-2650380.php

            • Robert Eckert

              The city of Denver, and other municipalities in Colorado, passed ordinances forbidding discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation (sometimes only in employment, sometime in housing as well). A statewide ballot initiative forbade cities from passing such ordinances. The Supreme Court ruled that the state initiative was unconstitutional, as it singled out one class of persons as “a stranger to the laws”, not permitted to seek legal protections as anybody else could. This is of course a very famous and well-known case.

            • jeff

              I know. But the state law said they had no grounds to sue. And sue they did.

            • Robert Eckert

              They sued under the US constitution, which imposes obligations on the states. They said Colorado was violating the equal protection clause. No private business is obligated under the equal protection clause, because they are not states. The result of the case did not mean that any town in Colorado was forced to adopt anti-discrimination ordinances, only that they were allowed to. It did not mean that any business operating in a Colorado municipality which had no anti-discrimination ordinance could be sued for firing someone who is gay.

            • jeff

              I don’t think the rest of the world saw it that way, being a landmark ruling and all.

            • Robert Eckert

              I don’t care how mistaken some people were about what happened. That is what actually happened.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I love both you guys !

            • jeff

              Well how about this one. This woman sued for race discrimination in employment as a stewardess before the civil rights act and won. Robert, you’re wrong.

              http://vitaminw.co/change/african-american-flight-attendants-break-color-barrier

            • Robert Eckert

              She was able to sue because New York state had an anti-discrimination statute. Your notion that you can go into court unsupported by any law is just insane and absurd.

            • jeff

              Thanks for the bull-baiting, but neither is true.

            • Robert Eckert

              Both are true. I admire your persistence, but you don’t have a grip on how the real world functions here. If you go to court, you need a legal basis. I would not have thought there was anybody who would have needed to have that explained.

            • Guest

              That was under the disabilities act.

            • Guest

              Michigan is unique when it comes to weight discrimination laws – remember this Hooters suit? (I vaguely remember some similar airline suits as well?) http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/rare_michigan_law_may_help_wai.html

            • jeff

              Exactly! The stewardesses won!

            • Guest

              Did they win? That suit was in the ’90′s, I think. I know they won on age discrimination but I don’t recall that they won the weight argument. Not sure if the airline was able to prove that it was a safety issue? Maybe Robert can check. Gotta crash.

            • Robert Eckert

              As far as I can Googlefu, the only cases in which stewardesses were able to shoot down “weight monitoring” in court is when weight was monitored for females only and not for males, so that it could be addressed as a gender discrimination case. The weight requirements are gone at most airlines nowadays, but that is from union contract negotiations, not lawsuits.

            • Robert Eckert

              Height is also a protected category in Michigan. The article says no other states have a height or weight protection, but some states do have unique wrinkles.

            • Guest

              “…some states do have unique ‘wrinkles.’”

              Pun intended? (I like to think my wrinkles are unique!)

        • media_lush

          I’m sort of basing my argument, for want of a better word, on the numerous episodes of The Good Wife and LA Law where we see the fat ugly person taking their company to court and inevitably winning. If I was a certain type of actor wanting to get some free PR/recognition I think this kind of action would get some decent coverage…. and cause major enturbulation for the cult…. which is why it’s always a good idea to put those ideas out there as you never know who’s reading here

          • Robert Eckert

            LA Law actually tried to avoid gross distortions of the actual law, though not always successfully. What would actually happen is that the fat ugly person could not get a lawyer to file such a case for fear of disbarment. It would have to be dressed up as some other kind of case: maybe gender discrimination (you fire fat women but not fat men) or disability (the ADA requires some accommodation of my health problems and you wouldn’t), something that fits within an existing law.

            • Guest

              I believe there are a few states and counties that have anti-physical appearance discrimination laws. However it is a problematical issue. I think a handful of cases have been brought to court on this. Here’s a good article: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1110&context=djglp

              “Appearance-based employment discrimination has attracted a great deal of
              attention in recent years. When appearance can be translated as meaning race,
              sex, age, or some other existing protected characteristic, plaintiffs may have a
              viable claim. Also, the grooming and appearance codes often invoke sex or
              another protected characteristics. There is also a looming notion that
              employment discrimination law should address the general issue directly by
              prohibiting appearance-based discrimination… the problems posed by appearance suggest it will not be covered. That’s the ugly truth about appearance-based employment discrimination law.”

              Oh – IANAL.

            • Robert Eckert

              When they say “When appearance can be translated as meaning race,sex, age, or some other existing protected characteristic, plaintiffs may have a viable claim.” the flip side is that if you can’t dress it up as a gender-discrimination (or whatever) claim, then your case is not viable at all. They are advocating for legislatures to add this category to anti-discrimination laws, but there is no state which has done so.

            • Guest

              Exactly. You can’t bring it in on appearance alone, but you can go in the back door by bringing a complaint based on gender, race, unfair termination, wage discrimination etc.

              This suit was appearance-based but brought in based on racial discrimination:

              http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-african-american-hooters-blond-hair-20131024,0,7218061.story

              This suit was appearance-based but brought in based on the disabilities act:

              http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/suit-says-hooters-waitress-forced-out-after-surgery/article_db861563-d08b-5cb7-9cc9-91150b39351b.html

              However Michigan has an odd weight discrimination law.

              http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/05/24/hooters-sued-for-weight-discrimination/

              Michigan is one of a few states, perhaps the only one, that outlaws discrimination hinging on weight, said Nate Plantinga, a law partner specializing in labor and employment at Miller Johnson’s Grand Rapids office.

              Plantinga said Smith’s lawsuit might not hold water if it were being tried in a state without that requirement.

              Nationally, the most prominent recent trend has been toward laws fighting discrimination over sexual orientation, but similar laws about physical appearance are “gaining traction,” Plantinga said.

              Mathieu, who represented Grand Rapids for 24 years, originally introduced the height and weight amendment because he was “flabbergasted” by the number of cases of unfairness involving women seeking office jobs who possessed the necessary skills and personality, but were overweight.

              “They wanted Raquel Welch at the front desk,” Mathieu said, referencing the svelte actress and sex symbol of the ’60s and ’70s.

              The only exceptions to the statute involve denial based on a “bona fide occupational qualification,” Mathieu said, citing an obese horse jockey as a possible example.

              Hooters seems to be the test case on a lot of these!

            • media_lush

              I’m sure you know but if you don’t there was [and still going on the UK I think] brouhaha with Abercrombie and Fitch that started off with the whole MTV Jersey Shore and their request that Vinny No Nuts [or whatever he was called] wearing their T-shirt and them asking to to remove it or something …. which led to the kind of people they employed and so on… quite amusing as I remember

            • Robert Eckert
            • media_lush

              I’d like to see the Shirtless Women version of this

        • Guest

          Disability. That’s a really big one. That’s federal. Just came from a huge seminar on this the other day.
          If you can prove being left-handed is a disability, you might have a suit.

      • EnthralledObserver

        I think hiring an actor is the only industry that will get away with hiring someone based on their looks… it makes sense, because they are casting someone for a ‘role’, and the actor needs to fit it to be able to do the job authentically. However, being pretty or ugly is subjective to interpretation – what clam get to decide that about each person?

        • Robert Eckert

          In the United States, waitresses or receptionists etc. will frequently be hired for looks.

          • jeff

            But a receptionist who could prove she was more qualified, still has a case,

            • EnthralledObserver

              That’s right – one might get the job because she is beautiful, but if someone doesn’t get a job because they aren’t as beautiful (or is ugly) and they can prove it, well that is discrimination – because the job, with the exception of an acting/modelling job, has nothing to do with what they look like.

            • Robert Eckert

              Yes, it’s discrimination, but no, that does not mean there is anything illegal about it.

            • Robert Eckert

              Somebody’s down-arrowing me for telling you how the law actually works? I didn’t write the law and hated having anything to do with it.

            • Robert Eckert

              No, she doesn’t.

            • KJP in Portland

              And unfortunately, the USA has kinda poor employment laws. Europe and other regions smoke our laws by far. Hell, in Europe, some countries you get to work a 30-hour week and get one month off per year. Unheard of here in the USA for newer employees. Yes, my state is an at-will state. Others are right to work states. I just think our system could use some improvement. But, unless you can prove some kind of discrimination here, you don’t have a leg.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I think it’s amusing and kind of weird that gays apparently find the need to fight for equality in marriage in the US – when it’s really just a piece of paper – but apparently (I’ve just learned here) they can be FIRED just for being gay – you’d think they’d get their priorities right.

            • KJP in Portland

              Where I live, nobody even cares about someone’s ‘orientation’ anymore. What one does in their own bedroom is their own business.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Certainly nobody should be allowed to be fired for their sexual orientation – how is that relevant to their jobs?

            • Robert Eckert

              We have also been fighting for the employment non-discrimination act for 20 years. The Republicans have consistently stuffed that at the federal level. It will be brought up for a vote again in the next couple weeks, and will pass the Senate but fail in the House unless there are drastic changes of mind.

              Marriage as I explained to you once before is of vast significance to our personal security, but you take that for granted.

            • Robert Eckert

              “Yes, my state is an at-will state” All 50 states in the US are.

          • KJP in Portland

            Unfortunately true. Also females in construction accounting (and I’ll swear on a Bible on this one). I overheard comments for 20+ years about “hire her, she’s hot”

      • Guest

        Oh please. Actors (mostly female) are constantly being told they aren’t good looking enough/thin enough/sexy enough/too old for roles. It’s horrendous and it’s always been done that way and it will never, ever change. Or rather, their agents are told. Then their agents tell them, “They decided to go another way….”

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Guest! H e l l o ?!? Yo, Guest?
          I asked b4, and me asking agin’.
          How is it you have Poison-Ivy’s dang Avatar image ?!? Me don’t get it? And — it confuses moi !!! To see PI’s avi, and then it am You, and not She !
          What gives ?!!!!?

          • Robert Eckert

            Blue “Guest” is someone who has taken “Guest” as the Disqus nickname. Gray “Guest” is someone without a Disqus account. Why Poison Ivy’s posts have gotten re-labelled “Guest” is a mystery, especially since the avatar still appears, so obviously her account did not get deleted. It is one of a few Disqus mysteries tonight, at least one of which (auto-flagging of RealityScamz when he posts protest guidelines) can be attributed to OSA hacking.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              So- dude- you a bit past my reality right now — who have I been talking to all night? Guest? or Poison Ivy ?

        • media_lush

          my intention [admittedly between the lines] was that it would be a lulzy self PR thing to do for a wannabe actor…. something that might get them noticed AND cause embarrassment for the cult as they would be seen to NOT want ‘normal’ looking people.

          [a surreptitious win-win, ed?]

  • Great White Clams

    I like seeing this clam implosion. Carry on, TonyO!

    • KJP in Portland

      No, it’s “Thank you, Tony”.

      • Great White Clams

        KJP, with all due respect, “Thank you…” just seems so … so final… such a complete ACK.

        On the other hand, “Carry on…” leaves more mystery intact. Sort of a half-ACK, dont you see.

        • KJP in Portland

          Disagree: It’s a measure and show of respect for the only journalist that has chronicled and criticized this rotten cult as long as he has and also, has attracted a varigated and intelligent array of commenters on this board.

          I am an ex-US NAVY Petty Officer (E-6), and I find “Carry On” to be a flippant insult, especially in the business world.

          With all due respect.

          • stillgrace2

            For the record, I found nothing offensive in Great White Clam’s “Carry on” post, and I support his right to make his statement without being corrected. You don’t have to agree, but to make such a big deal about it just seems wrong.

            • KJP in Portland

              I didn’t mean it to sound that bad. Maybe because I’m ex-Navy, i have a certain take on the meaning. I’ll defer to you guys and offer an apology? I’d rather just make amends. I’m not here to attack andif it looked that way, it is my bad. Apology.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              no problemo, KjP.

              Everyone messes up in “a text-based, typing on a freaking keyboard, world of communication”. Remember, we are here to protect each other.

              Good call on the apology. :-)

            • KJP in Portland

              And I wish to welcome Great White to the Bunker!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Now you talkin’, KJP. Now you talkin’.

            • Great White Clam

              Thanks.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Is it certain that GreatWhiteClam is male ?

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            What stillgrace said, KjP. You missed the ‘meaning’ of the post.
            (no big deal. everyone does that now and again.)

            • KJP in Portland

              I did bungle it, didn’t I?

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              uhm, yes… you did.
              But that is par-for-the-course on a keyboard-freaking-method of communication. See?

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      oooo !! A downvote, GWC !!
      You touched a nerve in OSA (okay, that would be Eastern European immigrants, who are OSA slaves, and they are online, trying to perfect their English, and making their “stats.”

    • GlibWog

      Welcome Clams.. Yep.. the Clams they are Imploding..woo hoo… Clam chowder anyone?

  • media_lush

    came across this…. from lifehackable.com …. any science behind this or is it troll bollocks?

    • Jimmy Threetimes

      It’s common to hear that it takes 3 days cold turkey to beat the physical addiction to nicotine, and I know people who claim that 3 or 4 days was the hump they got over. The sauna might just aid in its relaxation.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        fuck the fucking purification rundown for *any* fucking malady. ( sorry it’s 1:00AM here EST … )

        • Jimmy Threetimes

          Yeah, what I was saying is that 3-4 days, from what I’ve heard, is the mark you need to clear to yourself of a nicotine addiction. With or without a sauna.

          • media_lush

            it’s the whole ‘sweating out drugs’ bit I find worrying as it kind of confirms the Niacin sauna crap the Hubster champions.

            I’ve always heard that it takes longer to get rid of a nicotine addiction…. the figure I had was 6 weeks…. if you can manage 6 weeks without a cig than that’s it, your body is at 0% cravings…. admittedly the first few days are a nightmare.

            I read up quite a bit on this as I’ve been trying to get my friends [those who still smoke] to give up for ages. What I’ve learned is that it really is much harder for some than others and it’s down to the ‘addictive gene’; some of us have it and some don’t. Although all smokers have problems giving up it’s those with the addictive gene that find it really hard. The easiest way to know if you have it [and you're a smoker] is that those that have it nearly always want to have a cigarette as soon as they wake up or very soon afterwards – after a cup of coffee, say. Those that don’t, don’t.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              can interject here, m_L – you know I <3 you substantially — but __ please __ let us drop "the Hubster" designation. As it nearly sounds like a "terms of endearment". Please — let us agree to use Hubbtard. Or Hubbhole. Or Hubb-anything. Just not Hubster. (it is too endearing for me to handle.) Thank you !!!

            • media_lush

              changed it

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Thank you, brother – and forevermore.
              Whew !
              I hate that mutherfucker and I just can’t see that. Thank you !!!

            • KJP in Portland

              Hubnut! like wingnut.

            • stillgrace2

              Hubnut! I like it. Missionary Kid should add that to the “list”.

            • KJP in Portland

              Hehehe, I bet he will. All I’m good at is one liners. When I try and type a sentence, I can fail miserably, example earlier…

              I still think you’re tops, Grace. I really do.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Ms. Grace is grand, KjP, indeed.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              yet, dude- GlibWog has just testified that it has been 10 fucking YEARS for her. And she *still* went back. FORGET 6 freaking weeks. That’s inane. (from everyone I know who has done it, as I have, and I know a bunch). The 6 week thing is like “the earth is flat.”

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Excuse me. If one hasn’t quit the god-damn monster addiction — worse than the freaking heroin addiction, excuse me former heroin addicts, but ’tis true — that monster being “nicotine addiction”, then you *have no idea what you are talking about*. And I know, then, that you are *aware* that you are *speculating* with your imagination. And that is like “blowing” body thetans (r) (c) ™ and clusters. It’s just your imagination.

            The sauna isn’t worth SHIT in quitting tobacco addiction. Me = 50 cigarettes per day. And me quit. Cold turkey. And it is hard. And forget fucking 3-4 days. Let’s talk 3-4 YEARS of dealing with “craving.”

            I’m just sayin’ — get real.

            • GlibWog

              I quit for 10 years and wanted a cig every freakin day … I gave in when my twin died.. The only way I could quit and be 100% satisfied is my nicotine in my e cig.

            • Rita Gregory

              Sorry you lost your twin, Glibbie. No wonder you started again. I don’t know how I would function without my e cig. It helps make quitting bearable.

            • GlibWog

              It’s been rough Rita.. Thank you.. She died in 2005 with a brain tumor.. sigh.. We were identical and every time I look in the mirror I see her.. ; /

              OMG Yep.. E cig. I have no desire to ever quit either.. Just a perfect solution for me..I even take it with me when I’m walking my dog.. ha

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Wow!, GlibW. I feel for ya’. I do.
              Thank Beelzebub, I do not have a craving for nicotine. I kicked a 50 cigarette per day habit. 17 years ago. (And… I hear a R O A R in the Bunker ! Yes, A.D.!! Yes!!! yEs!!! (it’s late, am tired. going to bed!)

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              That’s what I’m talkin’ ’bout, GlibW.

              The habit is a drug addiction *monster* !

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              Calm down. I didn’t use the word “vanish”. Three days is the roughest part of the physical addiction. It’s not completely gone from your system after 72 hours, but the roughest hurdle of the physical addiction is that first 3 days. If you can beat that could turkey, you have an excellent shot of quitting.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Was just on a rant, JT ! Am a rabid-dog anti-smoker and sometimes get carried away. :-)

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              And I said the sauna may only be useful for relaxation. Slow down and read properly, I never even came close to implying that it will aid in “sweating out the nicotine.”

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              @ 2:00am my time, was on a anti-smoking rabid-rant, JT. I think I hate the nicotine worse than I hate the Hubbturd and $cientology Inc. ~

            • DeElizabethan

              BIG difference doncha think?

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Well, yes- DE — but, for me myself and I, I do hate nicotine more that all of $cientology Inc., Hubbard-hell, all of it. Because it was going to kill me; it was/is way more personal. As a never-in, I do not have the personal, which would make the entire cause bigger than my ant-smoking. See?

            • DeElizabethan

              I do see AD. Scio was in a way, was going to kill me and I got away from it and now work to eliminate this for others, so it is with smoking for you. :)

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Smoking *and* the Cult of Scientology. Both. For me.
              And I <3 what you do fighting the good fight.

            • DeElizabethan

              Thanks sweetheart, we all do what we each can do. Thank you too.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              And frankly, if you’re not going to read the words in the comment you’re replying to, then shut the fuck up and move on. I said plainly that what I was saying is based on what people who have quit have told me. I did not imagine them. I am not imagining things. And writing a big block of text in a rant doesn’t make you right and me wrong.

              Plus, comparing heroine addiction to nicotine addiction? Yes, you must be an expert on the subject.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              People who have quit isn’t evidence of your own; it’s nice anecdotal information. You head your way I’ll head mine. I am expert on addiction, Jimmy3 – as you are a student of the subject and have a lot to learn about it; and share about it, too. More learning would help you, if you want to write on the subject.

            • Jimmy Threetimes

              And I was not passing it off as anything other than anecdotal information. But it does not mean its incorrect. I was frustrated more so about you taking what I said out of context and making it seem like I was claiming something that I certainly was not.

              Anyways, I was a little heated this morning, and maybe got carried away. No hard feelings. Peace.

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        see my quitting smoking rant above, Jimmy3T. Fuck the sauna.

    • KJP in Portland

      I vote bollocks on the sauna thing.

    • Jo

      Prob troll bollocks, but I’m a smoker?

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        someday to be an “ex” smoker, Jo.
        Go see “Gravity.”
        And you’ll quit . ~

        • Jo

          I’d love to quit smoking.

          • stillgrace2

            Wow. For some reason, your honesty just resonated with me.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            I’d love to lie down with ______ (your favorite love god/goddess)

            It’s not like that. If the chemicals are not destroying your tissue _ and you will know if they are _ then, go head on. Smoke. It won’t hurt you. BUT, if you like me, quit a.s.a.p., because the shit will take your body down. To death. No doubt. Total certainty.

            • Jo

              I know, I know.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              so- does it bother your health? Or not …

            • Jo

              Sorry, I fell asleep and didn’t see your comments. No I’m healthy so far but find it hard to quit. I’ve tried several times even went to a smoker group thing which helped a lot. My brother bought me an expensive E-cig for my big 40th birthday. Will charge it up, doesnt help that my hubby refuses to quit. Your right of course, I am stupid smoking.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Yeah, hubby smoking will make it highly unlikely you’ll quit. But, if you are not feeling it in your body, detrimental results from the habit, then it might not be dangerous for you. Some people’s cells can handle the toxicity and just shrug it off.

            • DeElizabethan

              Exactly! It is an individual thing and bodies are different, genes, allergies foods and all.

            • DeElizabethan

              Not so stupid as just being hooked. I choose and enjoy my vices. Lots of things will kill you and if it comes to that, i would give it up, whatever it was, and that still depends on the extreme and effects on others.

          • media_lush

            I always felt I could give up smoking if I wanted to but it was the “incentive” part that was the problem…. “for your own health” didn’t really resonate with me…. there was nothing I couldn’t do because I smoked [running to catch a train and missing it because you ran out of breath didn't really compute]…. as mentioned it was the 2 month salary bonus that did it for me. try and get sponsorship from you freinds who want you to give up…. ask them “what will you give me if I stop smoking”… it doesn’t have to be a material or monetary thing it could be something simple like they’ll tell you the secret thing you’ve alway wanted to know. by putting this “reward” into your psyche you’ll find it so much easier – it becomes a focus and a daily yardstick.

            I have quite a few nice bottles of booze kicking around and I promised a particular bottle to a friend if he managed 6 weeks…. he did [he actually said he did it just for that bottle]… he relapsed a month later for a week but felt so guilty that he stopped again and has been smoke free ever since.

            in other words – try and get a sponsor!

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            HELLO ?!? IS THERE ANYBODY HOME?!? JO?!? W a a a y over there in No. Ireland?
            I’d love to sleep with ____, but it isn’t gonna happen. I have to make it a reality.

            “oh I’d love to”. Yeah, I’d love to be on the next rocket ship to the moon and have a couple nights on the space station. NOT gonna happen.

            If it is ripping apart your cellular structure– and you can feel that — then, you can quit.

            If it is not bothering your physical well being all that much right now, then you will moon and spoon and “wish” and “love” to quit smoking.

        • stillgrace2

          I haven’t seen “Gravity” yet. It’s getting a lot of exposure and advertising on Columbian television networks this week. I think I’ll go see it when I get back to the States.

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            *as soon as you get back*, grace. It’s an *enormous* achievement in sci-fi filmed entertainment.

            • stillgrace2

              I will! Thanks for the recommendation.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Have a safe time in Medelin, Columbia (isn’t that an oxymoron? just in the saying of it?) and a safe trip home, dear grace. And you will *love* Gravity. And isn’t Sandra Bullock (sp.?) a revelation in it? Great script. Great execution (direction, editing). And the 3D makes it off-the-charts special ~

      • GlibWog

        I was Jo until a couple of months ago.. I could now sell E cig door to door. I absolutely love it..and you can smoke it anywhere ( I smoked in an airplane..ha) just vapor.. nicotine..

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Whatever it takes, Jo. But- as I mentioned, if it isn’t hurting the cells of your body, if you can not distinguish the diminishment of your physical well being, then – forget it. You won’t quit.

          • GlibWog

            To tell you the truth Dwarf..the only reason I quit was because of the cost. My hubby and I were spending over $200 a month on cigs…

            Now it’s about maybe $30.. I tried a real cig about a month ago..took a puff and gave the rest of the cig away.. Just awful..after I got used to the e cigs.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Dear GlibW, don’t I know what you talkin’ ’bout. If the dang freaking things weren’t killing the very flesh of my lungs, I’d *still* be smoking. 50 cigarettes per day minimum is a big habit. And I did love to smoke. And I can take that back– if I had continued, right about now, 17 years after my quit date, if I had continued, I would be dead. Or dying. Right now, as the toxins in the shit woulda brought me down.

            • GlibWog

              What Chew Talkin bout Willis?

              I was talking about for me.. Health Scares didn’t make me stop.. It was the cost..

              I’m glad that you didn’t continue! xo

    • aurora50

      I know from my own experience, that it takes about 4 days to go through withdrawal from a prescription drug that causes ‘dependence’…so this statement does not seem unreasonable…I did not have access to a sauna, but did utilize hot epsom salt baths to aid me weaning off drugs I had discerned were no longer suitable.

      In this respect, I am not sure Scientology is all wrong…both my mother and I suffered hallucinations due to Neurontin, for instance. Later, Pfizer was penalized for millions for the way it mis-sold that drug.

      • media_lush

        hallucination? …. wow, I thought most of the harder recreational drugs actually strive for this…. do you mind me asking what kind of hallucinations?

        • aurora50

          Well…Neurontin was pushed in the early to mid-90′s as a potentizer of narcotic pain relief…so, oncologists and orthopedic surgeons, for instance, would prescribe it…I was hospitalized for a major lower leg fracture — fib, tib, displacement, 23 separate breaks, rod-and-screw implants, etc etc. Realized I was seeing Arthur Rackham type goblins in the corners of the room…since I had experience with recreational hallucinations, I was able to report them…though they had started me out on the max dose and had to wean me off over about 5 days.
          In my mother’s case, not such a funny story. She was a very proud 25+ year member of AA. Earlier, in the late 80′s, she had endured 3rd degree burns over 25% of her body without morphine, due to their instance on no drugs. She was dying of metastasized cancer that was breaking though her skin, and still refused morphine…Neurotin was promised as a relief for patients like her; it was a boondoggle…and she died believing her beloved sons were plotting her death…I got there and relieved them from the night watch and caught her just in time before she leapt, naked, out the window.

          However many millions Pfizer paid, IT WAS NOTHING, compared to the suffering they caused and the PROFIT they still made.

          • KJP in Portland

            I’m so sorry, Aurora. That is one thing about the pharms…they’re in it for the profit too…

            I’m sorry about your experience and the loss of your Mom. :(

            • aurora50

              Thank you, KJP. I very rarely share this tale.

            • KJP in Portland

              Thank you for doing so, I know it had to have been utmostly hard on you and your family :(

          • Guest

            This is one of those cases where Big Evil Pharma (in this case, it really was) probably did the math and figured their profits would always trump what they’d have to pay out on the occasional tragedy like your Mom’s (SO very sorry, aurora.)
            Car companies do that too. Big Evil Auto (in this case) has been shown in some cases to do the calculations based on recall or re-design and decide to take the risk on paying huge settlements, as opposed to lose the potential and expected profits.
            Bad bad stuff.

            • aurora50

              They totally made that calculation…it was a HUGE shock to realize it.

              My mother was such an elegant, proud and graceful person. It was just ENRAGING to see her suffer from the drug induced illusions in her last days…my poor brothers had taken such exquisite care of her.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              The Ford Pinto.
              — “unsafe at any speed” —

            • KJP in Portland

              (Actually, it was the Corvair, a la Ralph Nader) lol!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              yes- but the Pinto had the exploding gas tank, which is even beyond unsafe at any speed !!!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              And this post is by “Poison Ivy”, yes? I can tell now. The difference in your posts, you and Guest.

            • Robert Eckert

              NO. This is “Guest” in blue. The Poison Ivy posts now read “Guest” in gray.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Man- what happened to Poison Ivy’s “name” ? And what happened to Guest, being separate.? This is way beyond my pay grade.

              How is it that 2 people are now “both” called “Guest” ? And 1 of the peeps *used to be called* Poison Ivy.? WTF. I can barely follow the posts ! without having to figure out this stuff !

              Plus – am color-blind — so they both look the same to me ! blue and gray !

            • Robert Eckert

              Poison Ivy had to close her account out of concern OSA could hack her identity. I’m sorry for not realizing you couldn’t distinguish the blue and gray, but the pictures really don’t look alike.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              okay. Wow. For concerns OSA could find out Poison I’s identity, so she closed the account… you know, there are no words for the fucking cult. It is always: if you think it isn’t worse than you thought it was, about the evil of scientology inc., you are wrong. It’s staggering. Thank you for the assist ( no pun intended! ) Cuz they my peeps and I <3 them both. And I wanna know who am talkin' to. Ciao ~

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Dang!
              I can’t wrap my poor noggin’ around all involved in the Bunker’s subject matter, and now I have to figure out “who is who?” posting with the same “name” ?

              I can’t handle that. I am off to never never land, into a deep slumber. And may I have no ronald lafayette hubbard monster nightmares. ;-)

          • media_lush

            yowser…. it’s an amazing fine line between helping and totally fucking you up.

            when I was a kid I dabbled with what we would now call a serious drug…. it was kind of innocent at the time as it was actually legal; one of my more hardcore buddies [when I lived in Monaco] knew of this method of getting really “high” and that was to go over to Italy [it was only 8km away] where the chemists at the time sold this drug called ‘Romila’ [that's how it was pronounced] without prescription. It was a nail varnish sized bottle with a pippette which was intended for tooth aches – one drop was supposed to stop the pain. the idea was that you mixed it with flat coke and drank it one go… it was absolutely disgusting but I still remember the effects to this day. The first one was the classic out of body experience. out of body in the sense I was sitting in the park and could clearly “see” myself from above myself sitting there…. even now I can recall the image. The other bit was that when I stepped into a lift and it moved I genuinely felt I could flex my knees and fly away. The bits in between weren’t all that pleasant but I can’t specifically remember what they were. I remember looking at the bottle the next day and reading the ingredients…. admittedly they were in Italian but there was one long word and next to it in brackets was the word “opium”…. I’m sort of glad I did what I did as it put me off the idea of hard drugs pretty much for ever.

            either way it’s a massive subject that is loaded with subjective opinions that I truly believe doesn’t really have a right or wrong answer

            • aurora50

              A truly massive subject.

              I now am in a condition where I see a ‘pain specialist’ to manage my pain meds.

              I have always held that I want to maximize my consciousness at the same time we manage the pain; that I ask them to help me dance on that edge between pain and pain relief…because, as I FINALLY got them to admit, yes…in the last 6000 years, the human race has NOT gotten beyond the poppy plant when it comes to pain relief!

              all their offers at things like cutting the nerves at the spinal column, or fentanyl patches were hooey!
              (they find me odd, very odd!)

            • KJP in Portland

              My damn VA doctor cut off my Vicodin, the one thing that made me function at all, and I still sit here with 4 bad discs and an evil case of scoliosis and a bad left hip. The bastard. As soon as I get my private coverage back, I’m writing a letter to the State Board about him. I know it will be ineffective, but I’ll feel better for doing so. Rotten doctor.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              better you expend your energy and get a Dr. to give you a scrip for hydrocodone, or oxycodone, and take some decent pain meds. As needed. Then stop them. Then, as needed, take them again. That is a sane, stable treatment modality.

            • KJP in Portland

              I had hydrocodone, 10mg, 6 per day and he stopped me cold turkey. I won’t forgive the bastard. If I get real bad, I go up to the VA ER and they give me about 30 to tide me by. But I only do that about every 90 days. My wife has a scrip, so if I get really bad, she’ll hand me a couple. So, I’m ‘ok’ for now…barely. But, I need the operation and just going back to work sort of postpones that little junket for awhile.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Don’t ignore the poppy plants, when you need them, A50.
              They are there for a reason. They work.
              Take them when you need to. Then lay off them when you can. Then take them again.
              It is — a No Brainer. To do that.

            • KJP in Portland

              The stuff is the ONLY stuff that will kill true pain. Poo on Tylenol, Aspirin, ibuprofen…

            • aurora50

              …the Goddess provides!

            • media_lush

              I am no expert in a million years but I do remember watching a documentary on the BBC years ago where a surprising amount of pain relief was managed by seeing the very best clinical hypnotherapists – the ones who were actually specialising in pain relief – I know it may sound trite but before general anaesthetic became mainstream those who could afford it had ‘serious’ operations under hypnotism. Even in this day and age this still happens in the rare cases where patients are allergic to nearly all kinds of anaesthetic and need a serious operation. Just a possible thought

            • aurora50

              curiously, this brings us back around close to the arena of Scientology…learning as much as possible about how to control our mind and bodies…I have quite a bit of training in things like ‘Silva Mind Control’ and could not be functioning at the level I do without them…and the gifts of the Goddess in the forms of plant medicine!

              It is just, now, that I am getting to the point where I am not always capable of ‘calling the shots’ and have to trust the doctors whom I have established good relations with…that is essential for anyone facing these things…good relations with your docs!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              “Pain Management” is a *huge* field. For peeps in the 21st Century, the body of knowledge grows like exponentially, geometrically. For psychiatric conditions, someday, they will have medication to help. Right now – especially for Bipolar Spectrum Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder – there is *nothing* that categorically works. But someday, they will isolate the shit and target the treatment, and alleviate the nightmare. We all hope for that.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              >>>it’s an amazing fine line between helping and totally fucking you up

              Dude- if you haven’t been through it, you have *no idea* of the *depth* of the reality of what you have said !!!

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            Oh my, A50 – another completely different distribution of Neurontin, to scores of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands was — Neurontin, as a psychotropic medication, often prescribed by psycho-pharmacologists to consumers of mental health services, as in Bipolar Spectrum Disorder (BSD). I’ve seen a lot of people testify it was the worst shit they ever took in their lives; I’ve seen people say, it was Neurontin that saved their ass; I’ve seen people say, Neurontin did nothing for them. It is such a slippery slope, in a country of 300+ million people, looking for “medicine-that-actually-works” My <3 goes out to you and your loved ones.

            • aurora50

              Thank you, AD. It was one of the first attempts of Big Pharma to take a drug that was going ‘off patent’ and re-brand it, to maximize profits. It had had some success as an anti-seizure drug, as I understand.

              A similar thing went on with Cymbalta, for instance. I fell under that particular phantom promise as well…an SNRI that was promoted as a pain reliever. Then, after 3 months on it and the side effects start (for instance, suicidal ideation…!!!) they can’t let you quit because it will cause brain damage…GREAT…

              When I first got to the Bunker, I had a big go around with John P about Big Pharma. My only ‘data’ is my experience and that of my loved ones; not to say I have ANY reason to support the CoS…but in this instance, I wonder if, say, John Sugg and his last and one and only issue of Freedom Magazine did not have a chance of getting purchase with many other families such as mine.

              ( In this case, it seems Mr Sugg has faded away.)

            • KJP in Portland

              Yeah, they still have the Posse edition on their website. Where is ol’ Mr. Sugg? I was noticing that too. Maybe he got thrown in the Hole by now.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Being in the business of “services” for “consumers of mental health services”, or, people with psychiatric conditions, if you need a hand in any discussion of the topic with John P. or anyone else, I”m here. And just for the record that would be “SSRI” for Cymbalta = “Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor”, not snri, as you posted.

              It’s a huge topic. And I have a resevoir of ‘evidence-bassed’ outcomes for all modalities of treatment, for all the psychiatric conditions listed in DSM-IV and V. Don’t allow anyone to tell you anything contrary to *your own experience* with *any* medication. Okay?

            • aurora50

              Okay! just signing out and hitting the hay…may I ask if you will remember this conversation if I bring it up later on?
              Thanks for being a foundation to my journey here…my syntax is scrambled as I have been indulging in a Poirot-fest on Netflix!…it brings out the Edwardian in me…;-)

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I will recall this conversation throughout eternity, dear A50. And will “be there” for you in any way I can. No doubt.

          • GlibWog

            Aurora.. I am so sorry.. (((HUGS))) that your mama, you and your family members had to go through this tragedy.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      The Hubbtard, dude, was out of his freaking mind, with the sauna/Niacin C r a p o l a. Okay.? I quit a 50 cigarettes per day habit — long time — 17 years ago — and I can tell you there is no sauna-fucking-bullshit and niacin/supplements therapy that is going to take that *enormous addiction* out of your life. Cold turkey, here.

      • media_lush

        I started smoking due to sheer peer pressure at my boarding school …. all the ‘cool kids’… or those that seemed to have a lot more fun than the others were smokers; it was also an expulsion offense so you really took a major risk getting caught. I kept up my habit until I came to New York where a good friend of mine [who became my employer] had recently given up and hated me smoking in the office bet me a months salary to give up for a month…. I did this relatively easily which kind of annoyed him so he gave me a double or quits for a year….. 2 months salary was a helluva incentive. I did this, too but started smoking again the next day as I could prove to myself that I could give up. I was what you would call a social smoker… if I went out to the bars and clubs I smoked like a chimney and would often get through 3 Marlboro Red packs a night…. this concentrated smoking at irregular times obviously fucks you up big time and I clearly remember waking up in the middle of the night thinking I was going to die and my body somehow made it obvious that it was my smoking….. I also quit cold turkey big time!

        …. although I do enjoy a nice cigar frequently but don’t inhale [I 'swallow' the smoke]…. oh, and the occasional doobie when I meet up with mu uni buddies.

        • KJP in Portland

          I quit cigarettes after 25 years on 9-30-00. I remember smoking in the shower!

          • EnthralledObserver

            My Dad smoked – that made me immune to ever taking up the habit. He has quit (although my Mum suspects he sneaks one occasionally).

            • media_lush

              everyone I know who has never smoked isn’t too bothered by ‘second hand smoke’, as someone who has quit for several years can’t stand the smell of cigarettes now; in fact i seem to have a heightened sense to cigarette smoke. so much so that i bug the hell out of my friends who still smoke by saying they stink…. this led to a challange/argument that I could tell someone who smokes as soon as they walk in the door. we tested this at my friends cabin in Oslo where 7 of my friends (6 of them were smokers) and they all went out onto the deck and only one of them would smoke…. I would be inside a good 6 or 7 meters away from the door and facing away. they would all take in turns coming inside, closing the door and shouting out their name and some silly statement and go back outside. after they all did this I would guess the person who had smoked every time!

            • EnthralledObserver

              Yep… and I can pick smokers by the state of their skin, most especially as they age.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              no doubt, EO. Thas’ a fact. After about 3 years of not smoking the fucking poison nicotine stickes — well, I did a double take in the mirror, one day. Who’s skin is that ?!?, I wondered. As a rosey hue, which had not been present for eons, made a comeback. And wow- no shine-ola — the blood flow increases into the cells of the skin of the smoker’s face, and that good ol’ rosy-red glow makes a comeback !

            • KJP in Portland

              When I quit cigarettes, it was a delight to SMELL things again! and TASTE things again!

            • KJP in Portland

              Yes, that is one truth with most. They don’t age appearance-wise very good.

            • media_lush

              that UK science guy with the big moustache – some kind of fertility specialist – who often has documentaries on the BBC had one on identical twins a few years back….. the most amazing thing for me was when he showed photographs of these two twin women in their late 30′s…. one was a smoker from her teens and the other had never smoked – they looked like mother and daughter! [I have been trying to track down these pics on google for ages with no luck to date]

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              If you find those, *please* post here, O/Topic. I would want those .!!

            • media_lush

              just had another look…. whilst this is no way as dramatic as the twins in that BBC doc you really can see the difference here [top is the smoking twin]

              http://musicalhouses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/want-to-prevent-wrinkles-stop-smoking.html

            • media_lush

              here’s another one

              http://drrajivdesaimd.com/tag/tobacco-smoke-ingredients/

              whilst these two I’ve posted here are no where near as dramatic as the BBC pics it’s still conclusive proof in my book

            • KJP in Portland

              Jeezus H! wow!

            • media_lush

              One of my Norwegian friends from uni is almost exactly, to a day, ten years younger than me… we like to spar with each other about him not fully giving up and one thing I’ve discovered that really bugs him [and amuses me no end] is if we’re on a bar crawl I can stop anyone on the street and ask them “who do you think is older amongst us”…. they always say he is, lulz

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Wow!!!
              That is a fairly fucking huge difference!
              I am *so glad* I was able to quit. When I think about peeps who can’t, I think of that awesome New York public service ad., where the person has had a tracheotomy, and they still smoke throught the dang trache hole.!! Oh man- that is off-the-meter awful !!!

            • ThetaBara

              FWIW, I’m an exception to your rule. But I’m also apparently allergic to something in commercial tobacco – I can smoke hookah tabac all night long, but cigs make me super barfy, like barely able to hang on. It’s got to be some chemical they treat it with. ;-)

            • KJP in Portland

              I bet it’s the paper in the cigarettes. Or, the filters that also have nasty, nasty chemicals in them!

            • KJP in Portland

              If he’s cut back, say 80%, that’s still a win and his cancer chances will hopefully fall correspondingly.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Yeah, that’s how we look at it.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              meaning you dint like yo’ dad much, EO ?

            • KJP in Portland

              I don’t think she meant it that way. Probably all the stink and stuff.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Yep, partially right – see above answer to AD. :)

            • EnthralledObserver

              I didn’t like the smoke, choking up the air, and we didn’t have much money anyway, might have had more if he didn’t smoke, plus even young you can see the negative effects of smoking on a person. I didn’t notice the smell when I was young, because I was so used to it, but now I can smell it – my hubby doesn’t smoke either… it’s not in our house.

          • EnthralledObserver

            Oh, and well done! (in the shower – shit, that WAS an addiction)

            • KJP in Portland

              I could even shave and shampoo while doing it. Hehehehe!

    • EnthralledObserver

      This add states you will ‘sweat out the nicotine’ – that’s the point here – is there any truth to that? It doesn’t sound legit to me. Sauna for relaxation – sure, three days to detox – maybe, but sweating out nicotine sounds like quackery… what’s the science say, anyone?

      • media_lush

        I remember John P writing a massive piece that totally debunked this theory…. I’m mildly curious if nicotine behaves differently. I also heard somewhere that if you took pure nicotine in the form of an injection then one pack possibly but two packs worth definitely would kill you.

        • Jo

          Do you smoke?

          • KJP in Portland

            I admit, I chew nicotine gum by the trainload :(

            • jeff

              Me, I do lozenges, but you still smoke the cigars, no?

            • KJP in Portland

              Yeah I picked that up a couple years ago. My Dad smoked ‘gars his whole life. One of those quirky things that make me feel close to him since he passed in March.

            • NOLAGirl

              I still do it too KJP. Lost my Dad about two years ago and I still find myself saying “I need to call him…..” and then…”Oh yeah…”

              But you should talk to him (I do to my Dad) because we’ll never know until we’re gone if they can hear us. And it does make me feel a little better. :) (((((HUGS)))))

          • media_lush

            just replied to AsthmaticDwarf that explains my smoking history

          • GlibWog

            E cigarettes.. Love them..Absolutely Love..

            • KJP in Portland

              I have not tried them yet. Are they as good as the old inhalers?

            • GlibWog

              KJP what the hell is an old inhaler? Never heard of them.. They are fabulous.. It costs me about $5 a week in the ” Juice” ..

              I just got a really fancy one..Like a Hookah .. it was like $85, but am set for a long, long, long time..

              You can get really cheap individual ones… and see if you like it..

      • Snippy_X

        1 or 2% of toxins leave through the sweat. The rest are handled by the kidneys and liver. The sauna used at the manufacturers recommended time and temp may relax you but that’s it. The way Narconon or the Purif (same thing) do it, it’s dangerously long and dangerously hot. People pass out, have strokes, dehydrate, and some die. Very dangerous for your vascular system. Now throw in megadoses of niacin and you can end up with liver failure, stomach ulcers that progress to deadly peritonitis, and so on … it’s all pure bullshit.

        • KJP in Portland

          Saunas are not very safe, especially if misused. Glad they didn’t try boiling water cures!

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          p u r e b u l l s h i t !!!

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        quackery

        • EnthralledObserver

          That’s what I thought…

    • ThetaBara

      Yikes!

    • L. C. Spencer

      No truth whatsoever!

    • John P.

      This is bollocks, as you Brits would say. I tried to contact my friend who is a medical researcher considered one of the foremost experts on positive medical effects of nicotine, and he is out of the country.

      Nicotine is like any other drug, but even more so because it hits the bloodstream so quickly since it’s inhaled. Clearance models for nicotine are well understood. The amount of nicotine goes to zero in the body within a known (and relatively rapid) period of time. Like any other drug, it does not build up in the tissues.

      The reason that nicotine is addictive has absolutely nothing to do with it remaining in the body for an extended period of time. It is because nicotine releases a whole raft of neurotransmitters, which act as both a stimulant and a relaxant at the same time. So the high (I’m told; I don’t smoke) is extremely pleasant, but very short-lived. Because it has stimulant effects, including vasodilation, release of adrenaline, etc. it is both physically and psychologically addicting.

      It is true that nicotine could be fatal in an injection form with a couple packs’ worth of nicotine, but since it’s not available in injectable form, this is not much of a risk. It would be hard, if not impossible, to smoke enough cigarettes in a short enough period of time to commit suicide via nicotine overdose, because the clearance rate is rapid enough that you’d have a tough time building up the serum concentration to a lethal level.

      • http://frankdisalleisadummy.wordpress.com/ Get Chutney Love

        According to the Wiki, smoking can either be stimulating or relaxing, depending on how one smokes the cigarettes. I remember reading somewhere about someone(Albert Speer?) who wanted to commit suicide using the nicotine in a cigar or cigarettes, the idea was to soak the tobacco in water which would release all the nicotine and then swallowing the resulting brew.

        • John P.

          I’m going to guess that the problem with oral ingestion of nicotine is that the clearance rate is close to, or potentially exceeds the absorption rate through the gut. That’s why anti-smoking nicotine dosage is via a gum, where it is absorbed through the mucosal tissues in the mouth (like chewing tobacco) rather than as a pill, or it is administered via transdermal patches.

          It’s also possible that nicotine breaks down quickly via stomach enzymes and you’d have to take a lot of it to overcome the natural chemical action of digestive processes. It may be the case that even drinking highly concentrated nicotine brew would not yield enough nicotine through the gut rapidly enough to kill you.

          However, even if it doesn’t kill you, drinking concentrated nicotine would probably give you ulcers — remember, it was one of the earliest insecticides used to protect crops, back in the day…

          • http://frankdisalleisadummy.wordpress.com/ Get Chutney Love

            According to the Wiki, nicotine poisoning can take place via an oral route:

            Ingestion of nicotine pharmaceuticals, tobacco products, or nicotine containing plants may also lead to poisoning.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_poisoning

            However, even if it doesn’t kill you, drinking concentrated nicotine
            would probably give you ulcers — remember, it was one of the earliest
            insecticides used to protect crops, back in the day.

            Historically, most cases of nicotine poisoning have been the result of use of nicotine as an insecticide.

            Most such cases were probably due to absorbing it through the skin, which nicotine readily penetrates, according to this article.

      • media_lush

        Thanks Mr P

      • DeElizabethan

        You got the right info John, thanks.

  • Sunny Sands

    From FreakE420

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      You simply brighten up my day, SunnyS – no matter the time.

    • DodoTheLaser

      Some whales turned on their trainers in the recent past. Just saying.

  • Robert Eckert

    I’m crashing. One more repost for RS:

    Reality Scamz

    • This post has been repeatedly flagged; obviously it genuinely worries OSA so it needs to be reposted often

    Always have a video camera or regular camera Ready at a Moments Notice.

    If possible go with a more than 1 person

    Park 6-8 blocks out of the downtown area (Not Whole Foods lot)

    Use a BUS you can check the schedule at http://www.psta.net/index.php

    DO NOT USE A TAXI

    Use a different route to enter and exit the area. When leaving take your time, stop for coffee or browse a few blocks away. Make some turns and keep eyes open.

    Clearwater PD is well aware of Wearing a Mask, just put it on a few blocks before you get there.

    Consider bringing Water and possible a backpack with a Hat, , Different shirt, Sunglasses, Knit Cap; You can hide your hair underneath, also Big Sunglasses, (if No Mask Wanted)

    They will VIDEO YOU the less of your body they see the Better.

    Google Maps is your friend

    Once you get there even with an Anon do not tell people your real name, they will not be offended.

    After you get there Anon’s (Probably Guy Fawkes Masks) can probably give you further information. Guy Fawkes masks can be gotten at http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb

    You can also go to Why We Protest, if you have trouble finding information ask a MOD

    RS has these sign suggestions (remember, you only have seconds to get through to a Sea Org member):

    Communication is the Universal Solvent..Why Will You Not Talk To Me?

    Are you Getting what they Promised when you Joined?

    Sea Org you are not Even Clear

    What if We Are Telling The Truth & Scientology is Lying? Dare you Ask?

    When was Your Last Lib

    When was Your Last Phone Call Home that Was Not Monitored

    Why Do You Have To Leave Your Mail Enveloped Open, So OSA Can Read it First!

    You are Your Body

    You are Your Mind

    What’s your Retirement Plan?

    Your Family Misses you

    You Didn’t Pull It In, It Pulled You In

    Homo Novis No you Are Just Like Us

    The Truth Is Free

    You Can Do Whatever You Want

    You Can Say Whatever You Want

    Doubt Is not a Crime

    1-866-X SEA ORG

    Why Are So Many Declared

    Don’t Route Out, Just Blow..Help is Available…We Love you

    • ThetaBara

      I’d like to say that “if possible go with more than one person” means travel/arrive with more than one person. NEVER raid alone. I’m not even that concerned about security but that’s one thing I always take seriously. It’s just not worth the risk.

  • Sydjazz

    Hey bunkerites. Lots of fun happening at scientology in aus. They are volunteering at the bushfires we had. I got flamed by them. Do i dare post it?

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Yes! you dare!! You have my 6′ 3″ and 205 lbs. of *fury* behind you !!!

      • KJP in Portland

        I’m a midget then, 6’1, 210. But I’ll back ya!

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Yes, you got my back, and then, someone has your back, and that’s how we all put our fucking freaking backs up against this freaking monster of $cientology Inc., which is dedicated to one thing and one thing only — to take ‘suckers’ money AND to fuck them up in their lives and the lives of their families. PERIOD.

          • KJP in Portland

            I WILL LIVE long enough to see them shattered and turned to ashes!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              oh, brother, I hope to have the confidence that you do, that I will live long enough to see them $cientologist Inc. asshole membership and administration and organization shattered. From your lips to Beelzebub’s ears !

            • KJP in Portland

              We might just see them turned to ash in just a couple years. I don’t think too many years beyond that. The tsunami against them, especially in courts is really beginning to take root now. And, their legal tactics no longer work for them. I vote 2020 maximum.

          • DodoTheLaser

            UP VOTE x 100! ^^^

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Brother- I will stand with behind and in front of you and our sisters and brothers on this Bunker forever.!!!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              And, it’s really Thank You, DdTL. You were in. And you got out. And got your nuclear family out with you. And you are here. Thank you, sir.

      • DodoTheLaser

        6’0″ here, but my shoe ass kicking size is 12 and I can cuss/act in Russian. Bring it!

        • KJP in Portland

          Amen! Good to see you brother. Was wondering if you were showing up tonight!

          • DodoTheLaser

            Same here, Sir.

        • EnthralledObserver

          Short female here… but us little Mummys have powahz that you should not cross!

          • KJP in Portland

            Oh yes, I am still learning about what you just said ;)

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            No doubt, Ms. EnthralledO

          • NOLAGirl

            I love this conversation. :)

            Yay for Mom Powahz!!! They will make you feel the depths of fear. :) It’s how we get things done. LOL

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          Wow! Now *that* is a fucking foot!! Me only size 11 1/2. I got your foot (well I can’t say I got your back, cuz I’m 6′ 3″ and you 6′ 0″, so *you* have *my* back. But me– I got your foot !!!

          • DodoTheLaser

            So we got each other covered!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Zactly, brother. Zactly !

          • KJP in Portland

            I only wear an 11. I must be midgetized :(

            My Dad (as I’ve mentioned here ad nauseum) was bigger than life. He wore a 13 1/2.

        • John P.

          Dodo, just tell ‘anybody that messes with you that you’re ex Войска специального назначения and KGB. Then prove it by whipping out a pint bottle of vodka from your pocket, chewing the neck off of it and downing the contents. Nobody is going to mess with you even if you’re “only” 6’0″.

    • EnthralledObserver

      YES – the fuckers active in my country… ? Let’s hear it then!

      • Sydjazz

        Posted

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        They are *ultra* active in your country.

        Your land is a *huge* source of money and power to Dave McSavage.
        Do *anything*, little or bigger than that — to help stop the monstrosity.

    • Sydjazz

      Ok my funky friends. Read this before someone flags it.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Where do we go to back up your comments?

        • Sydjazz

          Scientology tasmania facebook page

          • EnthralledObserver

            Done! Cowards have run away it seems.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I’ve been blocked… what cowards!

            • KJP in Portland

              KUDOS, KUDOS, KUDOS! I watched it all unfold. She was giving them major shit and they ‘never heard of such a thing as disconnection, blah, blah, blah’. EO really shoved it straight in the staffer’s face! BEST effort evar!

        • KJP in Portland

          Link right above

        • KJP in Portland

          Oh, and EO went! and how! (I am STILL beaming!)

      • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

        According to this bitch I do not exist :(

        • Sydjazz
          • KJP in Portland

            This clam is severely deluded. Even indignant! What a crock of shit!

            • KJP in Portland

              Dammit, if I go there (and I SOOOO want to) my identity is totally open! What to do? What to do???

            • KJP in Portland

              I need to create an ANON page so I can go harrass these orgs on FB!

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              Whatever it takes, KjP, that you can do.
              Do It. !!

            • KJP in Portland

              I’ll have time tomorrow (as my night is fading now). I’m going to go see if Portland has one now. BRB.

            • GlibWog

              DO EEEEEEEEEEET

            • KJP in Portland
            • KJP in Portland
            • KJP in Portland

              Must be all the PDX congregants. Doesn’t look very chapel-like to me…looks to be about 45 people.

          • KJP in Portland

            I was able to report the page as “spam / scam”

            • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

              How?

            • KJP in Portland

              By pulling up their main page, look for the settings, you’ll see ‘report page’ with several choices. I chose ‘other’ which opened up choices…the best was “scam/spam”. I picked that one, of course!

        • GlibWog

          Awwwww Messiah..According to this Bitch you do..

          ON that note……..night alllllllllllllllllllllll yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

          • KJP in Portland

            Goodnight Glibby! (((hugs)))

      • DodoTheLaser

        Hahahahhaha!

        “Tony Ortega makes his money by making up lies about scientology.” – WRONG!
        (Tony just reports.)

        “L. Ron Hubbard did the same thing (made money by making up lies about scientology)” – CORRECT!!!

      • AsthmaticDwarf

        This piece of lunacy that I have to scrape off my shoes when I walk my darling Lu (my 35 lb. pooch) in a.m. and p.m, this piece of mental degradation and *incompetency*, said the following: (for which she needs to be PUT IN THE RPF – and GIVEN A GOLDENROD – and listen to Karen de la C.; and Lori; and on and on … Get on this, Enthralled O — they need a good DAILY stomping.

        • EnthralledObserver

          yep, I got in a few good jabs, but they blocked me now :(

          • KJP in Portland

            KUDOS to you, EO! You gave them holy hell! Then they cut you off :(

          • AsthmaticDwarf

            See if you can figure out a way, over time, like “jmh” does here with her CraigsList intitiative, to campaign *against* those monsters. For they will suck people into the cult and people’s hearts will be ripped cold from their bodies and souls. Figure a plan. Get allies.

            • KJP in Portland

              I will always follow. Just give me links (I’m dumb that way)

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              … me too !
              Me follow *jmh*’s cues. She really knows what she doin’.

          • Sydjazz

            Me too. But well done you threw a few good blows

        • Observer

          But I thought Tony was an unemployed blogger on the fringes of the Internet.

      • KJP in Portland

        Shystertology Tasmania. Please empty your wallet at the door…

      • Sydjazz

        Thousands of ex scientologists? What are their names. Pmsl.

        • EnthralledObserver

          Well… I gave her about what, 8 or so, straight off… but she didn’t want to hear them all apparently… she blocked me before I could continue. LOL!!!!

      • Sydjazz

        Oh thanks bunkerites for backing me up :) it has been fun and if it saves one life it’s totally worth it. Hi five and giant hugs

        • Sydjazz

          Even if i did get blocked oh well. Onto the next scion page

      • Tory Christman

        Rochell Landcaster: As much as I’m not a fan of messages from other areas posted here, vs you posting here…the truth is a) You would NOT post here, and b) You have to be a flat out liar to say “I have never seen a family broken up by Scientology”. REALLY? WTF would you call my marriage of 27 years ending due to OSA’s Flat out lies? Do you even KNOW there IS NO IJC? They’ve never ONCE heard *my* side? (Or no doubt tons of others they constantly lie about). How about my friend, Lori Hodgson: Where here children WILL NOT TALK WITH HER. Or the hundreds of other families broken up due to 1 thing: L Ron Hubbard’s Policy on “PTS/SP”..which yes, does break up families. WTFU Please!! Tory/Magoo~~Your local, friendly SP :)

        • Tory Christman

          PS: For years I agreed with many that the *real* evil was David Miscavige…and true, he IS a Senior Jack ASS and his Karma is coming his way. However, the few of you left who keep supporting his abusive ASS are just as responsible, at this point. YOU are contributing, by supporting this sick organization, to the same abuse he is creating, daily.
          LOOK, LEARN BOTH SIDES…………….otherwise you are just a puppet with your head in the sand screaming: “We’re free, we really are”. BULLSHIT. Why is it WE all can say “look at both sides” and your organization constantly has to blame us? THINK>

        • Sydjazz

          Yeah they are pretty dang backwards in tasmania. How can they believe there is no disconnection

        • Sydjazz

          That’s why i posted the quote from your shirt scientology hurts families and then they tag me and say oh i have never heard of that blah blah been in for 20 years blah blah

  • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

    Good morning. Are the religious signs gone?
    It would be really bad PR for DM to keep them.

    Halloween today, jipeeee! I’ll take my scariest fancy dress:
    A Patron polo shirt. Yay! I’ll be a good clam today.

  • KJP in Portland

    SHYSTERTOLOGY!

    • 0tessa

      Scientrollogy…

      • Rita Gregory

        Love it!

    • Rita Gregory

      Excellent, sir!

      • KJP in Portland

        It’s sooo true, Rita!

  • DodoTheLaser

    Happy Sea Org fundraising (courtesy of Karen DeLaC)

    “I nominate Sea org Regges who achieve orgasmic ecstasy from fleecing the public for cash”

    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?32078-New-*ELITE*-CLUB-exclusive-to-100-members-only-DONKEYS-of-the-*Church*&p=869221&viewfull=1#post869221

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      What is it? about the clams? that I just … detest ?!?

      • KJP in Portland

        It wouldn’t be their robotic, automatonic, hollow-eyed, disingenuine, can’t live their own life, follow a filthy crooked messiah, ripping innocent people off, enslaving innocent people, starving innocent people, decrying modern medicine, unable to read anything NOT L. Orca Blubber, eating rice and beans, deceiving people and lying to the whole damned World would it?

      • DodoTheLaser

        It’s about mostly well-intentioned but misguided people raising tons of money for all the wrong causes.

        • KJP in Portland

          I guess you put it more diplomatically, Dodo!

          • DodoTheLaser

            The pics above are funny, but even more sad. These people really believe they are helping society and the world somehow. I was one of them. Hence, my “diplomacy”.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              The ‘gestalt’ of your world at the time; your ‘moment-to-moment’ experience… Was your experience like Rober Vaughn Young explained, with his “Battered Person” syndrome? or a mind control-type thing? or a conversational hypnosis type thing, that has been discussed in the last few days? What was it, for you, that had you “captivated” into Hubbtard’s “universe.?”

            • DodoTheLaser

              Little bit of all of the above. But mainly me being young, naive, idealistic, just graduating from a high school, searching for the “big” answers and “meanings”, loosing my Mom when I was 15 (she committed suicide – heavy asthma case), Dianetics and its Clear promises, really wanting to help others, OT magic PR…. Getting caught up in all of that, plus passive-aggressive manipulation.

              Also, my prior focusing on “occult sciences” vs. Physics and alike.

              Sorry if it’s a bit confusing answer. But thank you for asking, it helps me too.

              It’s a bit of an allegorical onion and a personal journey.

              It’s pretty clear to me now though.

            • AsthmaticDwarf

              I hear you. And it is evident, what you’re saying, not confusing at all. Thank you for sharing your inner experience- for that is the key to understanding (not only for you the individual, but for those never-ins, who can’t quite grasp how it can happen.)

            • DodoTheLaser

              You are very welcome, AD. And thank you guys.

            • KJP in Portland

              You are an invaluable friend and resource helping us to understand this terrific mindfuck-organization!

            • DodoTheLaser

              I really am glad to be helpful like that.

        • AsthmaticDwarf

          But… but… I see a picture like that… and I just wanna …
          SLAP THEM UPSIDE THEIR DERANGED LOOKING HEADS!
          I’m sorry for shouting, but I can’t help it. And ‘n ‘n ‘n … that makes me like THE MIDGET, who slaps his executive management staff upside *their* heads.

          Fucman, I have to retire to lines behind the enemy lines

          • DodoTheLaser

            It’s pretty surreal, I know. And so cringe worthy, probably even for the current scientologists.

    • 0tessa

      Those pictures show it clearly: Scientrollogy is all about money and nothing else. They want your money and they want it now.
      Relicapitalism.

    • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

      Is that Photoshop or is that real?

      • DodoTheLaser

        Pretty sure it’s real.

      • Cece

        It’s real. Taken with my Canon probably for a CR (compliance report) back in 1993. That’s Nicole who blew staff Jan 94 so pix is b4 that.
        Cece

    • NevahIn

      Oh look, they are frolicking with the REAL god the CoS worships !

    • Sydjazz

      Rolling in it. Winning lol

  • KJP in Portland

    L. ORCA BLUBBER “Science Fiction Writer of Dubious Renown”

  • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

    Ok, I have done my duty.
    It just took a while to disguise myself, open an account etc.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      And there you go, BFM !! Well done !

    • KJP in Portland

      Very, very well done, Sir!

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Man, I hope peeps here click on that, B.F.M. because your story is *very powerful.* Thank you for sharing this post.

    • Sydjazz

      Thanks *hugs*

    • sugarplumfairy

      Lol.. Your av disguise is hilarious..

  • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

    I think I am pissing her off now.

    • AsthmaticDwarf

      Ah! BareFacedM — this one is grand, too!

      Thank you for sharing that post. Because here in the Bunker, well- I’m in the Bunker and I am not exposed to ‘shell shock’ and stuff. But you are “out there”, taking it to them. And that is fighting the good fight. <3 to you, brother.

    • Sydjazz

      Thanks so much :)

    • Sydjazz

      And quoting lrh. Wow yay.

    • http://BareFacedMessiah.wordpress.com/ BareFacedMessiah

      All is deleted now :(
      This was all they could confront! Ha, they are trying to censor the truth.

      Again, Black Panther Mechanism. The panther will still bite you, even if you clams ignore it.

      • Sydjazz

        And they blocked me too :( i was having fun.

  • KJP in Portland

    I shall see you all in the morning. It was a terrificly fun evening! Have a great night!

    • EnthralledObserver

      Night!

  • Krew13
  • Krew13

    No wonder Sciloons don’t like psychiatrists. L Rong was batshit crazy.

    http://lermanet.com/creed-pearson/hubbard-insane-says-wife.jpg

    • EnthralledObserver

      Nice…

  • mook

    Looks like we were right about the cult hiring actors for their galas. Desperate, much?
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?33693-Scientology-ads-in-Florida-for-ACTORS-for-GRAND-OPENING-quot-Super-Power-quot

    • EnthralledObserver

      They HAVE to hire actors… because they are simply waiting too long to announce the date for real $cienos, should there actually be any left, to be able to get there in time.

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    It’s surreal that reporters are so up to date and all over Scientology, and reporting details like never in this movement’s history.

    The balancing act that official Scientology keeps up, I’m so happy it’s being reported on in such incredible detail and understanding!

    Some sociologist I wish would do a comparison of the staff behavior of Scientology organizations and their echelons, compared to staff behavior in other organized religions or similar cult like groups.

    Staff life in Clearwater, around the many Scientology buildings, could be detailed by some ex Flag staffers who’ve lived and worked in Clearwater and who are now out. A Clearwater staff history, showing long term trends, what’s changed, what’s the same, to show progress or lack of it, in human rights terms for those staff, could be done.

    I worked at Flag from Dec 1975 til summer of 1983, and things were looser, less cult like, and lots more senior biggies on staff were escaping in those years, than even now, I would estimate. All those who defected and jumped ship from Clearwater from 1976 through the early 1980s would be fun to hear from, even if they comment here on this blog!

    • EnthralledObserver

      It’s a great time to be an anti-$cientology watcher and/or an Ex-$cientologist, that’s for sure!

      • Krew13

        The day that Leah gives her deposition and the day that Tombola Davis does the same are gonna popcorntastic days of pure lulziness!

    • Cece

      Thanks Chuck. Ya – It’s history in the making. Maybe we can get all the church roll-back findings :)

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Yea, you know there was a project to microfiche a lot of the paper files.

        And I heard that the pc folders of ex members were possibly going to be micofiched.

        I wish we’d have more defectors from those projects, the microfichining of the old filing cabinets of paper files.

        One of the ironies of Hubbard are his policies to keep files. And they have to accumulate a LOT of files, and will continue accumulating those files for decades.

        And they have just one more built in problem, they are creating a paper trail for investigations into their illegalities, for the future investigators who someday sue Scientology or prosecute Scientology.

        A whole writeup chapter or book ought be done on Scientology’s file system, oriented to details that procecutors and lawyers wishing to sue Scientology would benefit to know the details of all the Hubbard policy ordered filing systems kept throughout the official movement, and keep an uptodate Google Maps street view pictures of all the buildings with all the files, and street directions for later FBI raids or whatever.

        • Cece

          Hi Chuck, If you really think so, email me ~ lets do it.
          Cece
          cecegangle@gmail.com

        • Cece

          What if we got one of those ancestors programs and simply laid it all out. I mean all and make it easy for others to add to.
          Shit I’ve been so off ‘purpose’ so long it would really feel good to get back and get done the job. I figure I have 20-30yrs left & if I’m good more :)
          Cece

  • mook

    Just read in the new issue of Star Magazine that Marissa Ribisi is trying to convert Selena Gomez to CoS. I call bs on this story

  • Nellers

    So, what to do? Being followed and harrassed, forhaving an anti-church stance. Freaking me out a little. What do you all suggest? A little nervous frankly.

    • Sunny Sands

      Hello, Nellers. I believe you are in Canada? I would suggest re-posting your question on the latest blog. Just mouse over and click on the home key above, and it will take you there. That’s where everyone is now, and I’m sure you’ll get several responses.

  • mo-ron hubbard

    Hi guys, I’m new here. I just want to say how much I appreciate what you are doing Tony, and all the bunkerites as well. What a beautiful gift to the world this website is!

    • DodoTheLaser

      And thank you for joining us here, Mo!

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Great to hear from you! Don’t be a stranger!