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After Epilepsy Deaths, Scientology Website Still Extols Drug-Free Approach

PfaffDrawing

We told you about Jonny Jacobsen’s latest investigative coup — a detailed story about a largely untold 25-year-old death at Scientology’s “Flag Land Base” in Clearwater, Florida.

Heribert Pfaff was only 31 when he died during an epileptic seizure while under the care of Scientologists, who had convinced him to go off his seizure medicine and trust in handling his disease only with Scientology “auditing” and vitamins.

Tomorrow, Jacobsen is putting up part two of his story, and he gave us a sneak-peek at a surprising element of it: To this day, Scientology, at its website, is still extolling the benefits of handling epilepsy with auditing rather than medicine.

“The item that really staggered me when I stumbled across it was the success story at the Scientology site,” Jacobsen tells us. “I couldn’t believe they were claiming multiple cures for epilepsy.”

Here’s a screenshot of the “success story” at Scientology’s website that Jacobsen is talking about. Below it we have the text…

 
ScienoEpilepsy

I used to have epilepsy. Through Dianetics auditing. I discovered that the convulsions which traumatized my life more than sixteen years stemmed from a series of electric shocks that my mother underwent when she was pregnant with me.

During the sixteen years I suffered attacks of excruciating blinding and stabbing pains through my eyes and head. My body would go rigid and my throat, mouth and arms would go numb. Then I would throw up every twenty minutes for eight hours before the pain would subside.

These attacks occurred from the ages of eleven to twenty-seven years, until I had Dianetics auditing. These attacks vanished after Dianetics auditing at the age of twenty-seven. Today, ten years later, I have helped hundreds of people achieve similar results with Dianetics auditing.

JB
Dianetics Auditing

Thanks for that glimpse of what’s coming, Jonny. He should have part two up tomorrow morning at his site, Infinite Complacency.

 
——————–

And Now, A Canadian Debbie Cook

The folks over at WhyWeProtest.net were buzzing yesterday about a new, lengthy denunciation of Scientology leader David Miscavige that was written by a former official of the church. In this case, the message was reportedly written by Pierre Robillard, a former executive director of Montreal’s “org.”

Immediate parallels were drawn to the infamous New Year’s Eve e-mail written by former church executive Debbie Cook as the year 2012 was beginning. Cook complained that Miscavige was taking Scientology away from the goals of its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, and that Miscavige was much too focused on “extreme fundraising” for unneeded new buildings. Robillard largely makes the same complaint, but aimed at French-Canadians.

Robillard’s rant is more evidence that Miscavige is losing his grip on many longtime church members.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on July 29, 2013 at 07:00

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  • Observer

    Of course they’re still touting auditing as “treatment” for epilepsy. Any sufferers don’t improve or have died because of it weren’t doing it “exactly correctly” (as Tubbard liked to say) and pulled it in. Scientology is holy and blameless, even as it’s forcing dangerous, delusion-based quackery down your throat with one hand and robbing you blind with the other.

    • Lark Smith

      Pierre Robillard is not a happy clam (soon to be squirrel). He really does not like the concept of the Ideal Orgs and apparently no one is listening. The Indy ranks will have a new member soon.

      “They will also say that I should have used Scientology’s command lines to communicate my disagreement. But there are no longer any lines.

      I will also be attacked personally. They will say that I’ve been offlines for a long time, that I’m a rebel, that I’m an apostate (a fancy word to say that I renounced my religion). This is not true. I have not renounced the writings of LRH and I consider myself to be a Scientologist (compare the independent Scientology movements with the schism between Catholics and Protestants in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance). They will say I’m a squirrel. There is an old principle in Scientology which states that people who accuse you of evil actions are often people who themselves have committed the same kind of evil actions. If applying to the letter the policy letters mentioned in a previous paragraph is a squirrel action, then I would rather be a squirrel.”

      He is resigned to being declared.

      Great find Tony.

      • Phil McKraken

        “There is an old principle in Scientology which states that people who accuse you of evil actions are often people who themselves have committed the same kind of evil actions.”

        But that old principle is pure sophistry. I’m more interested in the old principle in Scientology about hounding your enemies to the grave. Isn’t Miscavige practicing Hubbard’s religion exactly correctly, in that regard?

        • Minion Gayle

          He’s excelling in that regard.

          • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

            Takes it as far as Hubtard ever did, and then some, for sure.

      • richelieu jr

        All of the crimes of Scientology,a llt he lives wasted, fortunes lost, deaths and this Hubbardhead leaves because of a building.

        Maybe we should build a statue in his honour “The Brave Man Who Was Tired of Paying Too Much!”

        For Chrissakes he talks like he is Churchill giving courage tot the English instead of a poor fool who has wasted his life in a cult and just wants to continue on a budget.

      • Yes, Great Find Tony – and lovely work as always on the translation, “Mnql1”

      • pronoia

        And he has coined a new and apt moniker for COB. Landlord international.

        • Lark Smith

          It is all about the money and power in CO$ -his rant is pretty enlightening.

      • Phil McKraken

        Oh, and I forgot to mention — that principle that accusers are accusing because of their own “crimes” is the philosophical equivalent of “you smelt it, you dealt it.” Really, it’s that idiotic.

        • tetloj

          It’s called misdirection, and Hubbard was a master

          • Eivol Ekdal

            He seems to have projected all his faults, weaknesses, perversions, and addictions on society.Then claims he is the Master and holder of all solutions.

            When even simple First Responder advice as given in the OTVIII tapes regarding various ‘assists’ is downright dangerous. Give me a Cub Scout over an OT any day if I need First Aid!!!

            • richelieu jr

              Well Cub Scouts and Scilon medics have one thing in common:

              They’re both 7 years old.

      • Zana

        Being declared is a badge of honor. 🙂

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      And to this day, up to this month, you will hear the Indies promoting auditing for cancer and Purif / Narconon and sec checks, even for children, as long as it is done Hubbard’s way.

      Willfully irresponsible, wholly dangerous..there is Nothing holy about it.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Meanwhile Kirstie Alley is selling her Rescrew Me Detox formula over on twitter with this statement…
        “Rescue Me makes THE best martinis !!”
        I shit you not folks! you can dextox and get sozzled at the same time!!!
        https://twitter.com/kirstiealley/status/360969598595641345

        • richelieu jr

          Sheesh! You really couldn’t invent this stuff, could you?

          No one would believe it (well, maybe not NO ONE)

        • Zana

          I’m still laughing!! ROFL!!! Let’s detox on Martinis! Whoopeee!!! How about a Rum Guzzle. ! Gimmee a toot. I’m cleansing!! Whoooeeee!!! Still laughing.

    • Marie Claire Wolf

      From a former long time sufferer of epileptic seizures I cannot stress enough how evil and terribly dangerous Co$’s claims are. It outrages me particularly because I know how difficult it is to cope with this condition and how tempting, to some sufferers, a hard sale pitch for a $cilon cure can be. This hair-brained pseudo treatment will without a doubt kill, and just for that alone $cientology must be eradicated.

      • ze moo

        Medications to prevent seizures are the type of medicine that the body often builds a resistance to. Constantly fiddling with dosages is a pain. Ad in the side effects and you can see why people want to get off seizure meds. This gives the CO$ a market for their ‘cure’ and a group of victims just waiting for a lawsuit.

        Too bad that evidence of $cientology promises about health benefits are all verbal, this stuff screams for a class action. Perhaps some day the FDA and FTC will do their jobs and force the posting of signs at the mOrgs that state, “I lie, you can’t cure anything with auditing”.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Too bad indeed! And I totally agree with the horrid side effects having had to cope with those for decades, which I am sure Co$ must make sure their pitch emphasizes. Terrible this, to prey on the weak, on the sick…

        • Zana

          The FDA comes down on lots of people and companies who make stupid medical claims like this. Perhaps THIS is another way to get them… report these claims to the FDA.

      • Zana

        They cannot legally make medical claims. If the FDA knew about that, they would be on their tail. Many major network marketing companies have been literally shut down because their associates have made medical claims of this or that. Maybe their making medical claims and using disease names can be reported. That could, hopefully, bring the FDA down on them.

        • stanrogers

          Unfortunately, that’s not quite true. They can’t make any claims for a device or a substance, but like the Church of Christ, Scientist, they’re free to promulgate belief systems and “thought processes” that can do just about anything. That’s why there’s a disclaimer on the E-meter. (Someone should get on them about niacin, cal-mag, etc., though. Really.)

      • i-Betty

        My sister died in her teens when she stopped taking the correct dose of her epilepsy medication. It was part rebellion, part forgetfulness, but it resulted in her death at such a young age. It is VITAL to maintain the correct drug regimen if you want to remain alive.

        • MarionDee

          My God, i-Betty. I’m so terribly sorry.

        • GlibWog

          Betty..I am also sorry. just tragic

  • Robert Eckert

    All of Marty Rathbun’s problems, like this epileptic “success story”, are ascribed to his mother being electroshocked while he was in the womb.

    • FLUNK_101

      Excellent point, Robert. Another dianetic delusion. Long term memories are not formed until the age of 2 1/2 or 3.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Was that in “the Auditor”? Because if it wasn’t, then it didn’t happen!

        • FLUNK_101

          It was in an issue of “FLUNK”. The one with you on the cover.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Imma steal that one and use on you in a few weeks..

    • richelieu jr

      I so, so wish you were joking, Robert…

      But we all know you aren’t, of course…
      and if it’s not shocks to his om it is shocks to his brother.

    • Minion Gayle

      It’s {amazing} the number of pregnant women who went through electro-shock therapy. Electrifying, really.

  • mook

    Looks like NYC culties are being more aggressive than ever with protestors.
    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/scilon-hostility-up-at-least-in-nyc.112564/

  • FLUNK_101

    Very sad that these people chose scientology over legitimate medical care.
    And I hate this obsession with vitamins. Mega vitamins. Don’t they know that’s not good for you?
    I got on that kick too. Even after I ‘d left scientology, for years, I was still taking mega vitamins.
    The strongest ones I took were called “Oxy Quenchers,” by Twin Lab. They made me very talkative, especially if I hadn’t taken any in a while. I’d take five, the daily dose all at once, and it felt like a fog was lifting from my mind. Then the Oxy’s were discontinued.
    All I take now is what my doctor tells me to and that ‘s it.

    • richelieu jr

      Can you imagine the massive quantities of vitamins flooding into the LA sewer system alone because of these clowns?

      They should just route the water around and recycle it as the vast majority of the vitamins aren’t even touched by the brief human filter they pass through.

      They could sell it as Scilon Vitamin Water: It’s been inside more idiots than Bodhi Elfman.

      • shasha40

        Bahahahahaha ! Your on a roll this morning !

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          Brilliant!!

    • John P.

      It is very scary to understand the subtle and dangerous effects of vitamin overdoses (not just Niacin but Vitamin A and others) and OD’s on trace elements. As one gets older, susceptibility to imbalances in vitamin levels and other things such as electrolytes can be extremely dangerous.

      Supermodel #1 and I have been having a really rough time in our training routine for several upcoming endurance sporting events. The recent heat wave, coupled with unusual humidity for the NYC area, has made keeping electrolytes in balance extremely difficult with all the sweating we’re doing. And that has happened just as we’ve been significantly increasing the length and difficulty of our workouts.

      In the last two weeks, we have both been sickened, in some cases, coming close to dangerous levels, by blowing out sodium, potassium and all the rest of our electrolytes or by overdoing it with supplements in attempting to compensate for sweating this stuff out. And that has happened despite consultation with our physicians and lots of independent research on the subject to ensure we’re doing it right. So if we can get into trouble with simple electrolytes, it’s scary to imagine what screwing around excessively with vitamins could do. And that, in turn, is nothing compared to the risk of screwing around with epilepsy meds, etc.

      • richelieu jr

        I used to get supposed “B12” shots back in the day that had not only ephedrine, but a highly refined variant indeed. Vitamin S.P.E.E.D., I believe it was called…

      • FLUNK_101

        Yes, electrolytes are important and an imbalance can affect the way we feel.

        Take care in this heat!

        Weirdly, those Oxy Quenchers were only anti-oxidants.

        When I took them everyday, I felt normal.

        But when I took a full daily dose all at once, when I hadn’t taken any for a while, those vitamins affected my brain. They seemed to improve my grammar, or the parts of the brain that control that. No matter how complex my thoughts were, I would find it much easier to speak in complete, grammatically perfect sentences.
        I wouldn’t start a sentence, stop, and then begin a slightly different sentence, like Sarah Palin.
        I might even speak in complete paragraphs, like my man, Zbigniew Brzezinski! Have you ever heard him speak on TV? I think he’s very impressive. He speaks in perfect paragraphs, like a well written essay.

        Oh, well …

        http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yekGSC4xxpc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyekGSC4xxpc

        • sugarplumfairy

          Wow.. 3 or 4 Jack Daniels old fashioneds does exactly the same thing for me.. It must have lots of anti-oxidants..

    • phronsie

      Certain vitamins, taken in excess, can be very harmful. For example, vitamin E can increase the risk for prostate cancer. The fact that the whole vitamin/supplement industry successfully lobbied to be exempt from FDA oversight or research responsibility pretty much tells me that people should avoid taking supplements unless advised by an accredited doctor (not your chiropractor or health guru)….

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/11/prostate-cancer-vitamin-e-study_n_1005547.html

  • tetloj

    Doesn’t this violate the terms of their IRS agreement. I know, I know – if someone took them to court they’d squirm out of it somehow, but they are clearly promoting auditing as a substitute for medical treatment. Boldy. Brazenly.

    • richelieu jr

      It would be blamed on the webpage designer, or the local chapter head, or anyone not with the initials DM…

      Shelley would finally surface to confess to her crime of doing it even though DM begged her not to…

    • Imelda Marcos

      Never mind the IRS, isn’t that just generally against the law in America?

  • richelieu jr

    This is so like Magoo’s experience with being denied epilepsy meds, but luckily for her, her mom was able to wake her up before she died…

    She was still damned close (thanks Tony for bringing that nastiness to our attention…)

    • richelieu jr

      Sorry Tony, I can’t seem to find the link…

      • Is this what you’re looking for Richelieu? http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/newtimes-tory-92701.html Tony broke the story of Tory’s emergence from Scientology and along the way explained Scientology’s criminal negligence regarding her epilepsy way back in 2001 in a landmark piece for Los Angeles New Times.

        I recycled Tory’s epilepsy story since it was such a good fit with the other material I’ve been running on Scientology and epilepsy. I may not always be original, but I think it’s handy to have the pieces of the puzzle in one place! 🙂

        • richelieu jr

          That’s it! Of course!

          I wasn’t able to find the link because I must have got it from you!

  • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

    That’s truly despicable. Disgusting. Reprehensible. All of the above, and more. Filthy f*^king c&#ts.

    (P.S. I despise that last word and will only even ever use it like I have in VERY extreme circumstances. In this case I think it is appropriate)

    • richelieu jr

      I accept your apology on behalf of all the c&#ts out there: `

      C&#ts are wonderful things, at the very origin of life and no one exists ho hasn’t touched one.

      To compare them with Scilons is an insult to one of the most beautiful, amazing things in existence. There is another hole however, that whatever it’s other charms, chiefly produces an unending supply of shit… Just saying…

      (Oh, BTW: c&#ts = CUNTS)

      • shasha40

        So eloquently put , Bravo , you can speak for my c&#t any time ! Lmao

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          Awww, you guys are awesome 😀 and yes, you’re right about arseholes, I just find the other word more offensive, personally.

          So, yes. Fucking despicable arseholes.

  • richelieu jr

    I read Jonny’s first part yesterday and was really amazed, then went back and read Tony’s stories about Magoo and some more of Jonny’s stuff. I had read a bit before, but I am really so impressed by what he is doing over here… Humbling, really.

  • Truthiwant

    Good for Pierre Robillard to speak out and it’s certainly a message in the right direction.

    However, personally I feel that these ‘independents’ are just another bunch of deluded Scientologists with the only difference being that are saving themselves some money that they would have had to donate to all those sick Miscavige projects.

    When I woke up, by reading the blasphemous internet, I really did WAKE UP, TOTALLY.

    Miscavige, I admit, is a bum but the truth is that it is L. Ron Hubbard that was the real criminal and brains behind the whole scam.

    So, Monsieur Robillard, why don’t you open up your other eye and go for broke, because it is SCIENTOLOGY that is crappy and not just Mr. Miscavige that is the big bad wolf.

    • richelieu jr

      I agree; I totally disagree with this ‘halfway house’ nonsense. Shock therapy of the best kind.

      WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Thats right! Snap the fuck out of it!
        It is all junk, period.

      • Truthiwant

        Absolutely.

        We’ve thrown away years of our life. What do you want to do? Live in fairyland for the next twenty years?

        JUST GET OUT and tell the whole group to F— off.

        • sugarplumfairy

          Best.. Advice.. Ever..

          • Truthiwant

            I’ll even go one further.

            When I got out, I began to realize that I had been a member of a criminal organization started by L. Ron Hubbard. THAT IS NOT NICE.

            So, Pierre Robbillard, do YOU want to be involved with a man that was a pathological liar? Do you want to be involved with a man responsible for the biggest infiltration of the US government in history? Do you want to be involved with the man responsible for his own son’s death? Do you want to be involved with a man that organized the ‘Guardian’s Office? and used fair game against hundreds of innocent people?
            Mr. Robbillard the list is endless. All facts about Mr. Hubbard. Now go and read about your big ‘Hero’

            • monkeyknickers

              Don’t you think that’s why some indies can’t fully let go? I mean . . . . to genuinely let the realization that you had been a participant in a sadist’s horror show takes A LOT of guts, and A LOT of inner power.

              Maybe people get caught on that – they’ve denounced the church, but to denounce Hubbard would mean taking a GOOD long look at the last 10-20-30 years . . . and THEN to give yourself permission to be okay, and to move on.

              It’s easier to blame it all on Miscavige.

              I don’t know – what do you think?

              And also Truthiwant – YOU GOT OUT YOU ARE MY HERO.

            • splog

              Yeah, that’s the way it goes. They get in by degrees and come out by degrees.

              Arnie has a good essay on his site, the 10 stages to leaving Scientology or words to that effect, and it’s mostly true for most folks.

              First they see fault with management, then they spot it’s really coming from DM, then they see it ramped up in the 90s or so. Then they find out about DM’s takeover in the 80s, then maybe Hubbard wasn’t so awesome after all since the late 70s. After a while folk look closely at KSW1 and maybe Hubbard went south in 66… or maybe in 59 when Nibs took off. And finally they let themselves consider that maybe Hubbard was cookoo all along. That’s how it was for me and most other fine exes I’ve met out here on the bad intartubes.

              Few people can take it all in in one go; like you said they have to realize that they themselves were wrong for 30 years or so. Tall ask.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              This is very true. They can Cut Down on the number of times they beat themselves in the head with a hammer gradually if they want to, but they have no right to continue beating Others while they are in recovery.

            • splog

              Easy to say, hard to do. The guy with one foot out the door can only see 2 things: Scientology behind him, Scientology Lite in front of him, and the thing in front looks attractive.

              Given time, they tend to come out the other side of that one as well. Best thing you can do for that individual is to honestly give a shit about their welfare – hardly anyone else has for many years.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I am agreeing with you. I am just saying they have no right to continue to do harm to other human beings for any reason whatsoever. During their recovery process, they can take as long as they like, but stop “practicing” on other people, especially children. That is all.

            • Zana

              They were kind, well-meaning people who are stooges. They are the front guys. The suckers. The shills. The ones put out in front to bring in the other suckers. They were doing their best because they wanted someone else to think for them… LRH, DM, their I/C, their auditor, C/S…whoever. “Let somebody else think for me and make the hard decisions…. I’ll just mind and be good and everything will turn out okay.” NOT!

            • Once_Born

              The final chapters in books written by long-term Scientologists often describe their ‘decompression’ process.

              A substantial period of time ‘resting’ in a non-judgemental and supportive environment seems to be a great help. Free from supervision, punishment, overwork and hunger, they have time to learn to think for themselves again. The people who could go to such a refuge are often those who make a completely clean break with Scientology. (a good example is John Duignan’s book “The Complex”).

              Reading this, I wonder if its worth taking a less confrontational approach to dialogue with (apparent) ‘true believers’. If they really *are* crazy, you have lost nothing. If, on the other hand, they are privately beginning to have doubts, you may help them along by showing that the wog world is not really corrupt and hostile…

              Of course, I have never been ‘in’ and might be completely wrong… and I understand the feelings of exes who have good reason to be mad as hell with the CofS. What do you think?

            • Veritas

              Great post. It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to take a confrontational approach with the indies. Hostility certainly won’t help the indies see the truth. We should welcome them with open arms to protest the abuses of the corporate cult.

            • richelieu jr

              No, because the problem isn’t ‘Corporate’ but ‘CULT’.

            • splog

              Sounds good to me. I suppose the first question you have to ask yourself is “Where is this person at really?” and let that guide you. People can only take so much, some more than others.

              Most of them still cling to the belief that Hubbard was awesome – that’s the thought that got them hooked in the first place – and it’s the last thing they let go of. What they need more than anything is support from family and friends.

              So what if they want to hang out at Marty’s and do some Scientology Lite for a bit, that too passes. Why? Because the actual Valuable Final Product of Scientology is ex-Scientologists 🙂

            • richelieu jr

              “Because the actual Valuable Final Product of Scientology is ex-Scientologists :-)”

              Exactly my reason for detesting cordially Scientology Lite, Hubbard Revisionism, and the Restoration under Marty Mis..erm, Rathbun…

            • i-Betty

              Lol.

            • Veritas

              “So what if they want to hang out at Marty’s and do some Scientology Lite for a bit, that too passes. Why? Because the actual Valuable Final Product of Scientology is ex-Scientologists :-)”

              Nicely put. And in the mean time, they will do what they can to undermine Miscavige and destroy the corporate cult. That’s why we should engage them.

            • richelieu jr

              There is doubtless a lot of truth to what you say, Once Born, so I won’t waste our time nit picking all the public exceptions to what you say..

              However, much as I sympathize for those in an would like them to get out as helthy and safe as possible, my real fear is for the people (particularly children) who may still get sucked in, especially using the ‘Scientology Lite’ nonsense not as a halfway hose, but as the first step.

              Most of those in did so of their own free will (once again, kids excluded) and therefore that’s there problem to an extent.

              I am less worried about them getting an easy landing than I am of seeing the entire lie exposed, the ‘Church’ structure dismantelled and the criminals involved (those still alive) prosecuted.

              Members of the Nazi party (even those, a very large number, a sizable percentage, who joined to get along, or to get promoted of to not make waves) were sat down and forced to watch films of atrocities. I am not saying poor well meaning Scilons are the exact equivalent, mind you, but just as the German soldiers got no ‘Nazism Lite’ hand down, I see no reason to give this totalitarian system anymore respect.

              I am A Wog.

              I am an SP.

              If it is hard getting out, it is still much better than staying in.

            • Once_Born

              The non-judgemental refuge I was thinking of in my previous post was friends and family,
              *not* independent Scientology. In John Duignan’s book, “The Complex” he
              describes the time he spent recovering *with his family* after ‘blowing’.

              This seems to me to be the best way to leave – being supported by people who care about you and understand that you need to be left alone while you learn to think for yourself again. It also seems to lead to a root and branch rejection of Scientology.

              I was absolutely *not* suggesting that people who leave the Cof S should turn to independent Scientology for support . Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

              Now that independents have been brought up, it must be said that not everyone who leaves the CofS has the kind of the support waiting for them ‘on the outside’ that Mr Duigan did. (especially if they have been ‘in’ for a long time).

              These people really need a ‘half-way house’ and, until such a thing exists, some will inevitably turn to independent Scientology because it provides companionship and an environment that they know how to deal with. Bad choice – but where else do they go?

              Perhaps activism aimed at bringing the CofS down should be kept separate from the question of how to support ‘recovering Scientologists’.

            • splog

              The key thing is to spot what the person still in will accept as help. There’s two things that keep people still “in”:

              1. Threat of losing friends, family, connections, livelihood
              2. Threat of losing your eternity

              Don’t discount the second, it’s probably the more powerful. Yes, I know this sounds weird and totally incomprehensible to a never-in, but it’s very common. You are dealing with people who are convinced they have whole-track memories going back 4 trillion years or whatever, and really bought into the idea that the current life is just one more of many.

              If your[1] purpose is to extend a helping hand, then you extend the hand the person is willing to jump for. For many, that is Scn Lite, or just a way to get auditing and not be in DMs clutches. For some, friends and family is enough. Still others have what it takes to walk away. Everyone is different.

              If your purpose is the complete total destruction of Scientology and everything attached to it right the fuck now, the approach is different. I just don’t that’s a good way to go – too much antagonism and it just sets up an Us vs Them game all over again. Which is exactly the game DM is playing, I’m over that.

              FWIW, I don’t do Scn Lite and I’m not Indie. I’ll help my old mates from long ago when they step out the Matrix, but my help won’t be Scn Lite – I’ll refer them elsewhere if that’s what they feel they want.

              [1] Not “you” as in Once_Born, but “you” in the general sense. Ye gods, sometimes I hate English pronouns…

            • ThetaBara

              I believe that we on the outside should not make getting out any harder than it has to be.

              I totally agree that there is no real value in the indy system. I doubt very much that it will gain new adherents who are not exes, though. So I see it as harmless, and I do see it as a halfway house that people can run to, so the “you can’t ever get auditing again!” threat is defanged. Eventually they will see that there is no need to get auditing. But not everyone has it in them to quit cold turkey.

            • richelieu jr

              I certainly hope you are right.

            • Of course the classic example of that kind of approach — offering dialogue rather than confrontation — is the way that Andreas Heldal-Lund reached out to Tory Christman in the days when she was working for the OSA.

              As Tony Ortega explains in his 2001 piece, for the LA New Times, that was the start of Tory’s journey out of Scientology to become the raging suppressive we know and love. I posted this link above (or below) but there’s no harm in having it in stereo: http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/newtimes-tory-92701.html

            • ThetaBara

              This is core to my approach with my own activism.
              As I have said, I have nothing but love for the still-ins, the questioning, the exes and yes even the indies. It is a process and every step towards real freedom is a positive change. These people have been put through the wringer and as a survivor of other types of abuse, I can tell you it takes you a while to untangle your mind. And that is just how it is. It’s similar to processing grief or other loss – and it is a loss, of years of life, of money, sometimes of family. I have to have compassion for that, even for the folks who I wouldn’t personally want to befriend.

            • Zana

              The fact that old FartFace was doing drugs when he was writing all that crap… It’s insane. Why don’t all of us just get high and write the history of the world according to us?

            • splog

              Hubbard was an idiot. But I don’t understand where you’re going with this.

            • Exterrier

              Yes, I certainly agree in principle with the “cold turkey” viewpoint. But that is one with a lot of great hindsight vision to it. A person builds up lots and lots of attachment and belief and a whole personal and mental infrastructure based upon the Truman Show they have been living in, and what looks like great ideals to save mankind, etc. So it would be almost sociopathic to be able to turn on a dime and drop the whole thing. It actually takes lots and lots of research and reading to totally wrap one’s brain around the magnitude of the scam that has been built. It is really an enormous Potempkin “religion”, and to face it all at once, and also to NOT have anything to replace it with in one’s heart and mind and dreams, is asking too much from a human.
              But one should sure be strongly encouraged to Fast Track themselves to the internet, and read Piece of Blue Sky, and watch all of Tory’s videos, and read all the Ex Scientology Kids horror stories, and the other great exit blogs. Tony’s Blog here might be a little 100 proof for them at first, and you could and should expect to see somebody who actually believed plunge into severe and deep depression.
              Psychologists say that disillusioned Scientologists are a very high risk group for suicide among shattered religious believers. So unless you are willing to take on the Suicide Hotline duties for these people, be willing to let some of them founder along briefly or for a year or two if need be, in a splinter group, while encouraging them to drop their acquired blinders and actually watch Ron Juniors testimony, and some other documentaries, and peel the onion on the whole scam, or they will never be whole people again.

            • Truthiwant

              To openly admit that we were actively sponsoring a criminal organization takes some admitting to.

              For me personally it was a shock reading certain things on the internet but it was also mesmerising finding out the truth. It took me between 2 and 3 days to get the information and for it to have an effect on me. The first site I visited was already a tipping point and almost everything that I read after that just sort of fitted in to place. It is impossible to deny the truth written by certain ex-members and I can’t understand why these ‘indies’ still see Hubbard as a saint.

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              Welcome back to the real world Truthiwant. Have a cookie 😀

            • Truthiwant

              Thanks!

              To know that our donations, instead of going to just causes were instead going to ‘other’ projects is a bitter pill to swallow.

              To know that some of my money probably went to paint Tom Cruise’s and David Miscavige’s motorbikes makes me angry but to know that my money went to OSA so as to fair game some poor individual makes me puke.

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              You’re welcome 😉 they taste better than those “bitter pills”, I’m sure of it 😀

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              It really is a shock and a very hard pill to swallow. For those who stayed in for like forever and gave everything and then gave what they didn’t even have, including their education, their time with their family, things they can’t go back and retrieve, it is so very hard to face.

            • Truthiwant

              The ONLY good thing that I can say about having been involved with Scientology is the fact that now I can help others to not get involved or help people to get out of it.

            • splog

              It’s good to find *something* good to counter-balance the bad, but it still sucks that’s the only thing you get to walk away with. I’ve got one of my own – it didn’t make me fat, and it didn’t kill me. For a result, that is sucky too.

            • Truthiwant

              That sounds like an expensive diet plan but thank goodness that I’m still able to say something to you, in that it didn’t end your life!

              But yes, it really sucks that none of us can say “Hey, that was good and it gave me something”.

            • phronsie

              My “wish upon a star” is that there could be a massive lawsuit and tons of damages awarded to those duped and victimized by this money-scamming cult.

            • splog

              All correct up till the first “and” 🙂

              Class-action lawsuits are coming (I have no special insider info, these things are just inevitable), but the victims won’t get much out of it, they seldom do. The lawyers get paid.

              Class-action suits are not about restitution, they are about teaching companies a lesson in the only way they will listen – in the pocketbook.

            • richelieu jr

              Don’t worry Most of that Motorbike painting was done by slaves and people on the RPF, so it cost very little.

              You probably only bought Miscavige Scotch and blowjobs.

            • Truthiwant

              “The Ideal Blowjob Project”. Please donate NOW.

            • stanrogers

              WHERE’S BERT???

            • aquaclara

              Adding some more ^^^^^^^^^ here for Truthiwant.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              After years of being ‘a true believer’ it is awfully difficult to admit to your total lapse in judgement and sore lack of true empathy. Instead they dither as to the evidence of the con, and chose to sanitize the Big Lie which is really a sad saving face move: D.M. has falsified everything, the LRH grifter was right. Pitiful !

            • richelieu jr

              I must say, Marie Claire, I am very very impressed (not to say a bit awed) by how much empathy so many of the ex clams around here show, both to non clams and to current Scilons…

              I have very little to reproach Scientology for on a personal level, but I a sure if I had lost half my life I’d be even less forgiving, not to say enraged.

            • ThetaBara

              Scientology aims to kill off empathy. But it can grow back!

              And I think saving face is a lot of it. People need to rationalize their actions.

              “Rationalization is more important than sex!” – The Big Chill

            • Zana

              Yes… I think he’s probably in the first stage. He’s literally donated all his adult life to the church. Once he starts reading the real truth about LRH… I mean, when I read John Atak’s book I was taken aback. The fact that all these claims were not true…? All the stories that have been hammered into our heads about LRH’s accomplishments… to actually find out that they were NOT true… Again… It’s what Jefferson said yesterday… Dissonance. Weird. It sounds like he came to his own conclusions all by himself (good for him) … and he has still been sheltered from what is REALLY out there. Good luck to him as he goes on. Hopefully he finds his life path again.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Trying to fix scientology mind conditioning with scientology is like trying to fix epilepsy with scientology.

            • richelieu jr

              Wish I could vote this up 100x!

            • Observer

              L. Ron Hubbard: lying liar from Liartown

            • monkeyknickers

              Oh . . . I love this one. A LOT

            • Zana

              Liar liar, Pants on fire!! Great job!

            • richelieu jr

              Hear, hear TiW!

            • Zana

              He probably has not yet had the time to read some of the stories of people who have escaped. When I woke up last year I was literally in shock for over a week. I read and read and read… and just kept reading everything I could find. I was disoriented for months. And I was just a PC on the outside. Hopefully he will start reading more of what is out here on the internet and in autobiographies of what it was like at Int and then getting out off Int.

            • Exterrier

              Yes, you actually get obsessed and enthralled by the whole story once you cross a certain Rubicon. I put that off for a year, I think, then dived on in when I had found a stable footing from which to do it. And finding Tony really jacked up the process into high gear. This is the very best blog to finally end up at.

      • Veritas

        You may disagree with the “‘halfway house’ nonsense” but it is immaterial. It has nothing to do with the human rights abuses of the corporate cult. Best to protest the actual abuse, rather than the personal beliefs of individuals who aren’t hurting anyone. The former is activism, the latter is more like censorship.

        • richelieu jr

          This didn’t seem to post, so let’s give it another try, shall we?

          The totalitarian aspect is intrinsic.

          If you follow Hubbard you follow ‘Make Money! Make More Money! Make more People make more money!” or whatever that nonsense was.

          Certainly personal belief is personal, and had Scientology left it at that I cannot imagine anyone would have any problem. However, they did not, and it has shown itself to be an incorrigible disease that always pretends to ‘reform’ and then metastasizes… I think Xenu is silly, but I think plenty of things are silly and it’s not big deal…

          Seeing as so called ‘Independent Scientology’ still follows L. Ron ‘Fair Game’ Hubbard and is currently headed by the Head of his fascist, Strong, arm lie, blackmail, threaten and cheat department, who has yet to come clean in any meaningful way, and still considers himself publicly as a Warrior..

          I would say there is cause for concern. Much more than from my tendencies towards ‘censorship’, which can only be done by a government.

          Scientology has shown repeatedly over a half century to be a dangerous, antidemocratic force that needs to be closely watched, much like drugs. You don’t deal with a heroin scourge by offering a cheaper, ‘fun size’ version.

          Nor do you let Scientology start anew without ever coming clean about it’s crimes, it’s founder’s crimes and most importantly The crimes of those now running it.

          PS: BY crimes I mean it in the sense of the English word ‘crimes’ as it has been used for centuries, not in the Scilon sense of anyone criticizing it. If this is confusing, try going into any non Scilon bookstore in the world and looking it up in any book not written by L Ron Hubbard. They do exist.

          • Marie Claire Wolf

            “You don’t deal with a heroin scourge by offering a cheaper, ‘fun size’ version.”
            So true, indies are doing $cientology Lite, a sure way to avoid confronting the Big Lie at its core.

          • Veritas

            The totalitarian aspect is intrinsic to the organization, and LRH wrote the instructions for the organization. But outside of the corporation, people are (like anyone else) grasping for answers and personal meaning, rather than corporate structure, playing the “birthday game” or doing time in the RPF. These are totally different. LRH may be repugnant, but it’s the organization that is the problem.

          • Robert Eckert

            Methadone substitution does have a role to play in weaning some heroin addicts off the stuff.

            • richelieu jr

              It also has a huge role in encouraging overdoses and death.
              Methadone kills.

          • Interested

            I’ve said it before and will say it again.. In my personal opinion a man who calls himself a warrior and boasts about what he was and what he did, openly if not completely, who was responsible for so much pain of others, and yet could only be in the hole 4 days before escaping. A bully who cannot take what he dished out for decades…. And is in my opinion aiming to become the new “leader” well….. Need I say more.
            Those of you here who have suffered, my heart goes out to you all. I wish I could hug each and every one of you and wish you only the best in your life. Keep strong because hate eats away at you.

          • ThetaBara

            OTOH, sometimes methadone can be helpful in dealing with a heroin addiction.
            I agree that all Scientology is bad but I think fighting the indies is a waste of effort and could turn them against our larger purpose if they decide we’re all just a bunch of jerks.

    • Veritas

      “The only difference being that (they) are saving themselves some money?”

      You must be kidding, right?

      It’s the human rights abuses. NOT the stupid books- I don’t think we are book-burners.

      • Truthiwant

        You are right about that, but only to a certain point. If these people got completely out they would then realize about the abuses disseminated directly by Hubbard. It’s not enough to say “I disagree with disconnection and so I’ll become an independent”.

        • Veritas

          “It’s not enough to say ‘I disagree with disconnection and so I’ll become an independent.'”

          Actually, that would be enough for me. It’s about the abuses, not the beliefs. There is no evidence of abuse outside of the corporate cult.

          • Truthiwant

            Again I agree with you but at the same time you must realize that every policy that ended up with abuse was written by Hubbard. Hubbard himself was abusive. Miscavige is just continuing in Hubbard’s footsteps. Hence I believe that Scientology is an abusive ‘idea’. Also there are many ‘independents’ that were themselves abusive and now they are hiding behind this smoke screen called ‘Independent Scientologists’.

            To me OUT means OUT. Anything half way between is, in my opinion, a way of propogating this abusive cult.

            • richelieu jr

              The only way to remove the abuse from Scientology is to remove Hubard. Blaming everything on Miscavige is fleeing from the truth.

              To remove the human rights abuses (and I totally agree with Veritas that if you removed ALL of them, I don'”t care how many aliens they believe in) you would have to go through Hubbard line by line, and also his personal history and there’d be nothing left;

              As long as Scientology exists it will be a totalitarian, mindbending, cult using hypnotism and so called lie detection equipment to manipulate people. From the first exercises this is the case.

              (edited to remove unecessarily aggressive and insulting lines.)

            • Veritas

              Actually, I despise LRH and everything about him. He’s obviously a sociopath and had satanic aspirations to destroy lives. But I don’t believe in censorship. People can do what they like if they aren’t hurting anyone. The totalitarian aspect is organizational, and outside of the corporate setting, there is, at present, no organization.

            • richelieu jr

              The Supreme Court has declared limits on free speech. You can’t shut ‘Fire’ in a crowded theatre, famously, and you can’t claim to cure cancer if you can’t.

              Half of Dianetics is gone right there.

              Still, I’m not calling for censorship. I am calling for absolute disassemblage. Ad I do think you are wrong about the ‘organization’.

            • Interested

              How many, that we know of, of the scions have died of cancer. That includes OT’s.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              without hurting anyone is the key. what someone believes or does behind their own closed doors is not our business. But those who are still promoting auditing as a cure for cancer, who are still putting children through Any of this mental stress or physical as in the case of a Purif, or promoting Narconon, That is still doing harm. If they want to do it to themselves and they are an adult, then that is there business.

              It is the point when I hear them promoting it to others, those who want to set up business doing this, I can’t say that isn’t doing harm. I don’t believe they will have a lot of future business, other than on themselves. there is also the factor that they have no license or education or certificates to diagnose anything and that includes mental and they absolutely Can cause mental harm with this quackery. I agree that it is not As abusive as corporate, but harm is harm.

              Other than that, we agree 100%

            • Veritas

              Outside of the corporation, the discussion becomes similar to the benefits of chiropractic or homeopathy. Interesting, but not interesting enough to distract my attention from many other worthy causes.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I just saw Possibly Helpful Advice advocating OT Auditing as a cure for physical ailments. This is much more than discussions about chiro treatments. And then on WWP a link to Milestone Two who claim to have gotten a foot in the door for the Wounded Warrior Project and Amvets veterans. I can assure Milestone Two that the organizations will be warned and educated about their “therapy treatments”.

              This isn’t about theory for me, Veritas. It’s about how many people are dead and I have a list now that is shocking it is so long. Should I just not speak up to the people I know at the U.S. veterans’ organizations now and consider it to be just a distraction? I’m afraid I can’t do that. It is a very small thing on my part. It takes only the slightest bit of education and links to information, honestly. (and I can assure Milestone there are Many people quite involved in the Vets’ organizations that will be doing the same).

              But I DO understand what you are saying, I really do. And that’s fine. We all do what we feel is best and do what we can. Most days I feel helpless, but when I can do something, I do. Discussion of these matters is important, too. I am always learning.

            • Truthiwant

              Well said!

            • Veritas

              But transparency is the solution, not censorship. Exposing and discussing ideas is better than ignoring the fact they exist. Ideas that stink as much as Hubbard’s tend not to propagate outside of a totalitarian organization.

            • Truthiwant

              Personally, I believe that the independent movement, although not an organization, cannot really benefit its followers just with Hubbard’s auditing and training.

              Scientology only really ‘works’ when someone is trapped inside the organization and only then do people think they are getting any benefits. To me they are not getting any benefits and all the ‘wins’ are inventions of the mind.

              The truth of the matter is that the whole thing is a scam whether it is run by the ‘church’ or run by the independents.

            • phronsie

              When my local branch of the ICOC started to implode, a lot of people left and dropped organized groups all together, some joined up with another type of controlling group, and some tried to reform the church but this time follow the teachings “better” which meant, of course, that they not so slowly devolved back into the same ol’ shit. So, I think the lesson is that some people learn, some people can’t be helped, and that if you try the same thing a second time, no matter what your intentions, you just end up with the same thing. Before long, if granted space and time, the scientology independent movement WILL fall back into the same breadth and depth of abuses. New wine, old wineskins = a right mess.

            • Veritas

              That’s hypothetical. Hubbard was charismatic reportedly, and an expert at hypnotizing captive audiences. I doubt his corporate structure would ever be reproduced if the current corporation was disbanded. The “source” is entirely too unpalatable.

              Plus, realistically, you can’t convince an indie anyway. Try it. You will fail. That’s why it’s better to engage them, rather than insult them. Make this a indie-friendly zone, and continue to kindly point out that they follow a sociopath.

            • phronsie

              I agree you can’t make people “fall away,” and confrontation almost always just makes people dig their heels in — it’s no longer what’s right but who’s right; from what I read the other day, it was reasonable, respectful dialogue with that guy in Europe (with the website? the xenu website maybe?) that finally broke through Tory Christian’s wall of obduracy. But anyway, the indie movement may be another breed of tiger, but it is still a tiger — and in the end it could prove to be the one that hangs in for the awful long haul.

            • Truthiwant

              Well said and I totally agree.

          • Ditto. Who am I to say what the victims should or should not do? I would like the victims of the mind-fuck perpetrated by the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology to become free, not for them to become my private army or my slaves.
            Now the wretched issue of medical treatments are relevant to this question. All I can say is that if an indie wants to make bad medical choices, I would like them to stop, but I’m not going to do more about their right (or otherwise) to make bad choices than I currently doing about the right of a person of any other religion to make choices with which I disagree.
            I am here to try to help stop the criminal organisation of the Co$ from harming people. That’s all

            • Veritas

              Nicely put. I get irritated when atheists derail meaningful discussions of this topic by equating scientology with “all other religions.” But if the organization was disbanded, and the abuses stopped, then I would agree with them.

  • There are, unfortunately, no shortage of horror stories of medical mistreatment at the hands of the criminal organisation known as the “church” of $cientology. (Check out Bonnie Woods’ book to hear her tale of being in the Damnation Navy and needing medical attention – but I digress.)
    Jonny is doing an excellent job, and one that is very timely given the increased attention given to the actual possible medical harm to the victims of the Co$ (rather than the “funny beliefs”).

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      and most of the main scientology medical personnel that went along with the scam or looked the other way…who did Not rush Bonnie to a hospital, but gave her cal mag, viatmins, are Still not only NOt in jail, they are still at it, in the sci hubs of LA and Clearwater.

  • tetloj

    Just reading Robillard’s piece….

    “No auditors are being trained in Montreal. Or very few. As of November 2012, no auditors had been produced in Montreal since 1995. Those who completed auditing courses redid the courses with the Golden Age of Tech or studied at Flag or elsewhere. Lists of auditors were presented to me, but no auditor was produced in Montreal since 1995”

    18 years, no auditors trained.

    • Veritas

      No auditors trained = a boon for humanity.

  • aquaclara

    I am just sick of the Church of Scientology trying to play doctor. LRH was not a doctor, among the long list of other things he was not. COB is not a doctor, and all the Bridge-steppers, despite shelling out thousands of dollars, are not, either.

    There should be a warning label applied to every piece of sh*t communication, website, letter and flyer that comes out from the cult warning people that to follow the advice of the cult may result in death. AMA, FBI, Health and Human Services, IRS-it’s your job to protect people from this kind of BS treatment from scam cult artists. How about it?

    • shasha40

      What Aqua , you want those government agency’s to do their job ? { { WhyThey have more important things to worry about like money, people don’t count. }}

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      He wasn’t anything but a blow-hard, a liar, thief, con-man, charlatan, bigamist, Satanist, misogynist, and a real piece of shit. I could go on of course, but my head is starting to hurt from thinking about the dickhead.

      • Imelda Marcos

        I’ll help. You forgot “grifter”.

        • Phil McKraken

          He said “con-man.” How about “degenerate?”

          • Imelda Marcos

            To which I would add (probable) anti-social personality (aka “sociopath”).

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              Nothing probable about that Imelda. Definitely a sociopath.

        • richelieu jr

          Didn’t talk about the beak or the strange cyst on his head…

      • CharlieWaters

        Also: drug addict, homophobe, and tomato plant abuser

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          Those poor tomatoes!

      • Veritas

        He also sucked at everything he did (except lying). He was a bad student, an inept officer, a terrible musician, an awful photographer, a crappy artist, and a derisible writer.

  • sugarplumfairy

    The docs here mostly just shake their heads in disgust and frustration when I relate these stories.. One doc just said, “you can’t save everybody.. Anybody stupid enough to trust their health to idiots deserves what they get..” I’m so thankful Tory didn’t listen to stupid co$..

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      That is true that you can’t save everyone.
      But I always think of the story of the starfish washing up on the beach…
      If you can save even one…that is enough……

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      That is true that you can’t save everyone.
      But I always think of the story of the starfish washing up on the beach…
      If you can save even one…that is enough……

      • shasha40

        No , you can’t save everyone, but shouldn’t we at least try ? And are they really idiots when they’re brainwashed ? I don’t think alot of people realize just how deeply indoctrinated Scions are, and what about their kids ? Where’s their protection from their parents beliefs ?

    • Bleuler

      Most of us learn that lesson during our career. It is not cynicism, merely an observation that humans being creatures with free will are not always making the “right” decision. However even experienced docs feel a great anguish when a pat refuses potentielly life saving treatment based on illogical beliefs. It doesn’t matter whether the beliefs in question are thetan space-cooties or belief that no part of the body (even a tumor) can be removed cause it is all sacred. With experience comes the realization that we are not able to influence every decision, and we are not supposed to. Information is presented and explained, after that the pat has a decision to make.

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        Arrrrgh I want Obs to do a shoop from the game Dead Space (the original) with Hubtards head on the Hive Mind boss at the end.

        Get it yet? Dead Space Cooties? 😀
        EDIT: what the hell? That was supposed to be in response to another post. Sorry bout that, I may have broken Disqus……….

      • sugarplumfairy

        very well said..

      • sugarplumfairy

        I just read your response to the ortho surgeon who made the above comment.. He said “yeah.. that’s what I meant to say.. “

        • Bleuler

          Well it’s a pod vs psych thing. They can handle drills and hammers much better than me, i can use words with more than one syllable. 🙂

          • sugarplumfairy

            Lol.. Ever since I read your comment, I’ve been counting syllables..

      • shasha40

        Most people in COS are neither operating via free will or the info presented. Yes, we can’t influence and shouldn’t influence others decisions, but we can try to educate and ensure they’re able to verbalize understanding . Lots of word clearing for Scions as their meanings are alot different than ours.

  • EnthralledObserver

    More and more evidence of Scientology, un-squirrelled, causing deaths… Indies are still blinded.

    • richelieu jr

      Blinded, yes but more importantly, BLINDING.

  • shasha40

    The situation with auditing away what ails you , especially serious medical conditions is just quackery. How would they know if someone had epilepsy or some other illness when they’re not medical doctors nor do they go to them. I don’t know of any chiropractors nor dentists that specialize in neurology.

  • BosonStark

    Org executives or leaders of Scientology have always left the cult steadily but they just had no way of contacting the people who knew them and telling their story. The combination of their ability to communicate along with the millions of dollars that have been sucked out of members for things like the Ideal Org program and Super Power, seem like they are going to collide.

    Pierre Robillard (of the Montreal Org) says there have been more than 55 fund raising event evenings at the Toronto Org in less than a year. Why don’t they just replace the tech with all its cuckoo about curing epilepsy, raising IQ etc. with fund raising? Seems like Scientology is more reliable for removing dollars from people than getting rid of their Body Thetans.

    • tetloj

      Thank you social media

  • monkeyknickers

    Okay. I have to ask and this might be something all you kids covered back in SciWatcher Pre-K, but have a little pity on the “special” kid 🙂

    Can’t some case be made against Sci for . . . . practicing medicine without a license?? Like Obs said, the cult is still saying auditing is a cure for epilepsy. So there’s THAT all by itself. But also . . . . the FDA PLAINLY stated that the emeter was useless for anything but “religious counseling”. Full stop.

    Not to mention the mountain of other snake oil promises and excuses for other claims, other ill SO workers, and other deaths. I hate them.

    That poor man.

    (Does anyone know how they deal with diabetics??)

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      I had asked that exact same question just the other day monkeyknickers. THDNE told me that diabetics quite often go without their insulin. Which is deadly and painful. Trust me, I’m Type 1.

      EDIT: Here ya go 😉

      http://www.xenu.net/archive/books/tsos/sos-21.html

      • shasha40

        I wonder how many have died from that situation alone ? * sigh*

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          I’d like to know that myself shasha. It’s extremely painful when your blood starts to just about literally turn into acid and builds up in your joints. Like liquid fire being injected into your very atoms itself.

          • shasha40

            And it’s so unneccessary . I can’t understand how with advancements in medicine since the 1950’s, they don’t think some things might need to be tweeked. I know , they’re stuck in 1950!

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              I started a new insulin therapy a few months back (it’s a 24 hour insulin) and I have never felt better than I have the whole time I’ve had it. 21 years. If I had ever done Scientology I’m certain I would be dead by now.

            • shasha40

              It’s nothing to play with. My sister in law has been a diabetic since her 20’s. Back then she was brittle because she was young having fun and not worried about monitoring her BS levels. 40 years later she’s payinv for it with diminishing eye sight, several toe amputations and kidney issues. Not fun .

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              I had it for over a year before we figured out what was going on. By that time my blood sugar wasn’t even readable by any of the meters they had back then. They had to take blood gas to get a reliable reading. Fucking HATE those things. If it had been left a week more I wouldn’t be here today. But, because I had it so long in the first place without treatment I think my body did suffer some side effects. I have noticed a toe not feeling right lately, but I try to live healthily, but I still have a damn sweet tooth. This new insulin however, keeps my BSL pretty steady through the day, and if I eat I just need to have a small amount of rapid acting insulin (bolusing) to cover the carbs and sugar in the meal.

              However, I really need to quit smoking. I have managed to cut back to 5 a day now, so getting there 😉

            • shasha40

              Yea, blood gas drawing sucks, very painful. My husband was diagnosed about 2 years ago and he still has his sweet tooth too ! Lol , he’s managed to get off the insulin with diet and excersize . Quiting smoking is important as it hinders the body’s ability to properly heal. I know it’s hard though as my husband has stopped yet I’m still smoking ! Good Luck ! 🙂

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              I was diagnosed as a child so I’ll not be able to do that unfortunately, but good for him!

              This one is sugar free 😉

            • shasha40

              Hey, I’m not diabetic, give me sugar !

            • CharlieWaters

              Congrats on 5/day. I’m hoping to get to that point someday myself.

            • ze moo

              Quitting smoking is easy, I’ve done it hundreds of times. The gum, the patches, etc all help but in the end you just have to stop lighting up. Old Loves die hard

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kAlYj2JGO4

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Good for you and much luck to you Unit G!!!!

        • Captain Howdy
          • shasha40

            Thank you ! Never paid attention to that section. It’s all so outrageous!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Here is an interesting link for you Monkeyknickers.
      Yeah, they are really that loco!

      http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/medical1.html

      • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

        That’s a good one too Bury, reading now 😀

    • tetloj

      This is my frustration MK. Seems clear to us in blogland, but to actually bring successful charges…that’s when lawyers get involved, and Miscavige still appears to have reasonably deep pockets.

      Someone reports this success story – Scientology says woops, sorry and blames it on the office junior (or Shelly according to Richelieu responding to my despondency at this very issue early in the comments).

      My observation of the world at 46 years of age – by default, power protects power. The powerless have to make a massively disproportionate amount of noise in order to have powerful entities brought to account.

    • Captain Howdy

      The FDA could have busted CofS a thousand times over for medical fraud if they simply sent in undercover agents wired for sound & vision to sign up for courses. Sci registrars will promise any and all medical cures as long as you show them the money. The government is an ass.

    • Studious Judious

      If I remember correctly Scientology has covered their ass with respect to practicing medicine without a license by stating in documents that people are supposed to keep taking their meds. I believe there is even such a statement in Dianetics. So I don’t think they could take down the whole organization. Scientology would just put any blame on a lower level staffer.

      • Sure. But show it to a jury in a civil lawsuit….

        • Studious Judious

          And more than likely CoS will settle out of court. Just like in the LIsa McPherson civil case. I can imagine that CoS would be willing to pay more to settle out of court than if a case was actually won against them, just to get the parties involved to sign non-disclosures and protect the CoS’s (not so stellar) reputation.

    • No more

      I can’t claim to be an expert but I was diagnosed with type II diabetes while still in the “church”. Although I was “allowed” to take whatever medication I was prescribed, I was considered PTS and spent a lot of time and money trying to handle that. I was always told I had “pulled in” being diabetic.
      Because of this medical condition, I was not allowed to do services at Flag or on the Freewinds. It was explained to me that I was too much of a liability to the “church” in case I died while at either place.

      • richelieu jr

        I wonder if you’d hauled off and popped one of those sanctimonious pricks int he kisser if he’d have admitted he ‘pulled that in’?

    • Casabeca

      I am no expert or lawyer, but I am suspicious when we hear ad testimonials instead of actual claims by the maker of any scam product. Freedom of speech let’s anyone say that my face looks 90% better with Olayo, or that 80% of moms think tidex makes their whites brighter. Could be same with medical claim here. No science, no study or trial, no official claim by producer, they just “quote” folks who had an “amazing” result. Just my opinion on what I think is a bad loophole.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    I read Pierre Robillard’s letter with great interest. There is a lot to say, but here is a briefing:

    Pierre has changed brands of Kool Aid from the new and improved to the original. Things used to be good then L.Ron died and things began to suck. Now things really, really suck. The new cult offices are just a big sham with nobody in them. Not only that the people who paid for them don’t even own them. Not only that the pot is seven million dollars short over at the Toronto cult office, with fund raising parties going on more than weekly. Fund raisers are on commission. He, himself, has worked his fingers to the bone for almost no money in salaries (but he neglects to mention commissions so I have to wonder). The stats that the cult of Scientology puts out about the new orgs are a sham, too, not like when he was a boy and things were great. He now awaits the assault from dyed-in-the-wool do-it-for-Ron Scientologists.

    I just reread his open letter and I am pretty close. Save yourself some time.

    Well, it is great to hear that another exec thinks things are going poorly. The worse it gets the happier I will be. He is crazy (well that goes without saying, but) he is crazy if he believes downstat was caused by little Davey. There were a slew of reasons, the biggest being improved communication. Yes, L.Ron was right that communication is the universal solvent (but not quite in the way Ron anticipated it would be).

    Pierre’s brand of silliness will never come back. The best thing he can do is grab and copy of Dianetics, close out his bank account, move to Bulgravia, rent an attic and get rid of his body thetans alone and in peace. The cat is out of the bag and the cult is on the ropes. The only question is will the knock out blow come from the various governements of the world or will there be a TKO caused by financial strangulation. I am betting on the latter but Pete doesn’t even know what the betting is about. The inability to admit that he has wasted his life and ruined the lives of others may be all that is keeping him in Scientology.

    I hope that this is the first step on his journey back to reality. I hope he continues to tell all his friends. I hope he can look back at that letter six months from now and realize what a loon he had been for supporting Scientology, even to the degree that he shows in this letter.

  • I am

    Most folks get over playing doctor at a young age. My husband’s brother and wife were encouraged to smoke by LRHub to excess. When they both got lung cancer, they gave touch assists to each other avoiding medical treatments until it was too late. RIP Harry and Pat.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      That is very sad. Sorry for your loss.

    • shasha40

      That’s the type of shit that infuriates me.! So sorry for your loss.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        There are thousands of stories, Thousands and thousands.

        • shasha40

          I don’t know how much more I can stand . It needs to end .

          • GlibWog

            I am so sorry for your loss I AM and Agree Shasha.. Enough!

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      That’s awful :'(

      I know it’s not much, but these are for you

    • richelieu jr

      Boy, I am, am I ever sorry to hear about your Brother and Sister in law…

      I hope they didn’t suffer too much and that the family took it as well as possible… How people can read this and think it’s the fault of Miscavige makes me see red…

    • Casabeca

      That is tragic. So sorry for the loss to your family.

  • Imelda Marcos

    “I suffered attacks of excruciating blinding and stabbing pains through my eyes and head. My body would go rigid and my throat, mouth and arms would go numb. Then I would throw up every twenty minutes for eight hours before the pain would subside.” That sounds like severe migraine headaches to me, not epilepsy. And I’m pretty sure you’d have to travel far and wide to find a psychiatric institution that would administer “electric shocks” to a pregnant woman. Unless she was doing it to herself with her home kit./sarcasm

  • Simi Valley

    The scientology website may extol the “drug-free approach” publicly, but after the death of Lisa McPherson, the cult quietly ordered scilon physicians to only treat their scilon patients with established medical procedures – including prescription drugs – as damage control.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      that may be a shore story all right, but I can tell you for a fact that scientologist chiropractors were still, for instance, promoting helda clark quack cancer cures, seliing quack devices and algae gunk and vitamins and getting ethics and auditing at the orgs Long after Lisa. in fact, you cwn go to many woo sites and there isMore quackery today, not less. im sure they have to be more careful, sure.

      • richelieu jr

        I don’t recall them pulling Dianetics off the shelves, either…

      • Simi Valley

        I mentioned this because I when I was in the cult, I was treated by a Scientologist MD with a prescription drug. I reluctantly started taking the drug after the physician implied that I would die if I didn’t take the medication. But the medication did nothing and only made me worse, until I blew it off and ultimately was healed by an alternative health care practitioner.

  • Captain Howdy

    I had Grand Mal epilepsy from the age of 14 to 20 and the symptoms described in that CofS testimonial are completely bogus. I have also know other epileptics, and none of them had symptoms such as throwing up every twenty minutes for 8 hours.

    The person who wrote that just made it up.

    • Imelda Marcos

      I’m pretty sure it’s severe migraine he’s talking about. They do eventually stop on their own, then come back. Some people have them daily, some people have them yearly. If you were in Scientology and you feared your acceptance hinged on making them “go away”, you might not tell about the ones that occur only infrequently.

      • Captain Howdy

        That’s what I thought when I read it..sounds like a migraine sufferer.

      • Studious Judious

        I used to suffer from migraine headaches. They would start slowly and build up over 2-3 hours. I would have to go and sleep for 4-6 hours before they went away. No over-the-counter medication was able to make them go away. Many times I would throw up because of these headaches.

        I remember once showing up for auditing with a migraine. They decided to do a touch assist. As I’m lying there “feeling the finger” (haha) I realize I’m going to be sick. I tell the person “I’m going to be sick,” get up and dash to the rest room. After I came back I was taken into some mucky mucks office and basically scolded for leaving the session. No concern for me at all.

        Years later, I finally discovered the cause of my migraines was withdrawal from caffeine. I quit caffeine and all my migraines went away. Which is a shame because I love coffee. Every 6 months or so, I’ll indulge in a cup of joe, and sure enough 1-2 days later, headache. Wow imagine that…

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          Ah! I’ve done the same thing Studious. Used to order a double shot cappuccino every morning before work, not knowing that the coffee shop I visited made them with a double shot as standard in the first place! So I was getting 4 hits of caffeine at once, and I’d have 2 or 3 a day at that stage. It’d get to the weekend and I would wonder why I felt like utter shit for those 2 days before going back to work and starting it all over again………

  • Lark Smith

    Off topic: Just in http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20721105,00.html- mostly old news. But good to know this isn’t going away for CO$.

    • Aslansown

      That link doesn’t work for me.

      • Lark Smith

        i think I fixed it try again

        • Aslansown

          Thanks — it works now.

  • Racnad

    On the linked page, Pierre Robillard writes
    “The Montreal org experienced unparalleled prosperity in the early 80s. Radio ads on CKOI produced a minimum sale of 250 Dianetics books a week to new people. BOOK ONE groups (auditing using the methods prescribed in the DSMSH book) flourished. Auditing hours reached 450 hours a week. The Academy was full of people who were studying to become auditors and who completed their courses. Preclears completed the grades and attained the state of Clear at the Montreal org.

    Today, all of this no longer exists. No auditors are being trained in Montreal. Or very few. As of November 2012, no auditors had been produced in Montreal since 1995”
    This confirms my own observation that in the late 1970s – early 80s, Orgs were thriving bustling places. But all you find there today are a small number of people who presumably enjoy “being on course” taking the same old courses over and over. Maybe THIS time it will be “just as Ron intended”!
    Church PR always proclaims “We are expending at unprecedented rates!” But the old timers (I’m old enough to be an old timer – yikes!) who have been there for 35 years or more know the truth, if they are willing to confront & trust their own recollections.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Montreal Was busy in that time period as well as numerous Class 5 orgs and some missions. The real Reasons were Not as some try to remember it because it was so “on source” which is rubbish. The “bridge” in truth is much more like a hampster cage. The measure of activity has always been based on how hungry the guinea pigs are and what flavor of carrots are on the menu.

      this time period there was no ethics flying monkeys in the missions to slow the wheels down, and Hubbard overnight transformed all the little piggies into Clears by concocting a long new list of Types of clears to explain why so few previous. So the “magic” of that boom was really throwing OT carrots in almost every cage.

      ps I loved the montreal org, beautiful and the staff and public greeted our crew with warmth and were terrific people. Never forgot how well we were treated on tour there.

      • richelieu jr

        I’m gonna guess some of that activity (most, more likely) was due to Jefferson’s new bang up publicity push that had Dianetics on the NYTimes BestSeller list for what, 3 years? And NOT on a sudden thrill of people getting pure, Grade A Hubbard Approved BS.

      • richelieu jr

        Cher Pierre Robillard,

        Tu sais, Pièrre, nos amis les américains ont une facheuse tendance à regarder les canadiens français comme des gens arrogants et pretentieux, malpolits à souhait voulant coute qui coute etre plus français que les français et finissants tout simplement une caricature, prenant que les caracteristiques les moins agéeables des français…

        Mais nous savons, toi et moi, la vérité: Bien que la Canada est un pays à part, avec une histoire et une culture bien à elle, les vrais français consider (à tort, sans doute) les canadiens français commes des gens gentils, un peu lents, qui aiment des vaches et qui sont… un petit peu ploucs (dans le sens gentil du terme bien entendu!)…

        C’est alors que je vous invite, nos frères canadiens de prendre encore un pas vers la lumière, tel qu’un Pinnochio essayant de devenir un vrai garçon… Soyez donc plus comme nous en admettant que la Scientologie est une maladie transmissible, un fleau, une peste moderne, la fascism qu’on tant souffert pour vaincre (et personne plus que les canadiens, anglais comme français, qui sont morts et blessés pour la libération de la France et le défait de la fascism) qui se propage par une autre manière…

        Libère toi, mon ami. Lire un livre (il existe actuellement plusieurs qui ne sont pas écrits par L Ron Hubbard), voir un film, allez sur l’internet…

        Et si célà ne s’avère pas suffisant, suis donc l’exèmple des autres Scions canadiens et t’eclipser.

        Signé,

        Charles de Gaulle.

        • John P.

          There you go again telling the people of Quebec that they are part of “Canada” (a notion that many other Canadians might disupte) and that Canada is a separate country, which we all know is complete nonsense. We in the rest of America might indeed find the French-speaking “Canadians” less agreeable than the regular French, but we can’t understand them to begin with, so we’re not really sure.

          We are suspicious about them because the French have contributed so much to world cuisine (I know; we in Global Capitalism HQ are expected to have dined in at least half the Michelin three-star restaurants in the world by the time we turn 50; I did 61%). But the French Canadians seem to have only managed to invent poutine, in three hundred years of trying. What have they been doing with themselves in the mean time?

          Given the subversive ideas that you were attempting to convey in the first part of your letter, I am relieved that you were only trying to get Mr. Robillard to break free of the chains of slavery in Scientology, rather than getting him to break free of the “slavery” imposed by America over those small, isolated “Canada” regions in the northern parts of the US, and trying to re-establish the French empire in North America. I am relieved that I didn’t somehow overlook Mr. Hollande declaring the Sixth Republic, which is based on recapturing former territories, Quebec being first on the list.

          I rather like the description of Scientology as a disgusting communicable disease… A beautiful French literary metaphor, more elegantly expressed than in English.

          • richelieu jr

            Thanks, JP..
            I think we can agree that the only real Canada is French The rest is a large American suburb, right? (ducks, runs for cover)

        • John P.

          Speaking of French language issues, the Guardian reports today that the Ministry of Culture has banned the term “le binge drinking” and instead mandates that this be called “le beuverie express.” I am sure this took many months and many millions of Euros in complicated bureaucratic analysis, but I suspect that the Minister is proud that today, once again, he has stricken a decisive blow against the English and their filthy, corrupt language that has a tendency to invade French like the ugliest weeds keep invading the most beautiful lawns.

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/29/france-binge-drinking-beuverie-express

          • richelieu jr

            Yeah, they can pass as ma y edicts as they like, I am sure it was bigger news in la presse anglo saxonne than over here. We’re supposed to say ‘Baladeur’ and not ‘WalkMan’ and the ‘malboufe’ instead of ‘le fast food’ too!
            On the subject of Quebec trying to be more French then the French, this is nnaohter example The far right here will try and pass a law every other year to ban English in publicity and menus, etc; It always fails. In Quebec; Voted, by a large margin the first time. hourah!

            • Aslansown

              When I lived there in 1972 l’Academie was having a fit about “le weekend” — oops — that was in France, not Canada.

            • richelieu jr

              Oh, we still say that!

            • Aslansown

              I know. When I went over a couple of years ago I was astounded at the number of English words that have entered the language. My favorite “super cool”!

            • richelieu jr

              Yes, we still say ‘cool’ and ‘super cool’ and ‘hyper cool’ now…
              Some things are easier and better in English. Some are better in French. I understand why some people want to control language (like Scilons!), but the truth is in a free society (unlike SeaOrg!) you can’t control language; It exists in people’s mouths and not in dictionaries.

        • Mark

          Ils sont fous, ces scientologues…

          Cinq sur dix (de bienfaisance) pour l’orthographe. Venez me voir après la classe.

          • richelieu jr

            yeah, I may be a little tipsy…

            • Mark

              Moi aussi!

        • Interested

          Bravo cher Monsieur , bien dit.

      • Racnad

        Many orgs were busy during this time period because SOME of Scientology does indeed produce SOME positive results for SOME people SOME of the time. The people who comment here who have spent years in the cult will conform this – that is what hooked them. In recent years, it appears that that crazy, mind control parts of Scientology that turn off sensible people seeking alternative answers are getting more emphasis than the beneficial parts.

    • stanrogers

      Bien, comme tout, c’est la faute du Fédéral.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yFElFVVFpk

  • MarionDee

    I don’t have epilepsy, but I get grand mals. My doctors can’t stop them … yet, that is. We’re working on it.

    I’ve had grand mals outside, alone, in the middle of traffic several times and woken up in strange hospitals, not knowing how I got there. I’ve woken up on the sidewalk, and realize I’ve been rained on and just left there. I can’t tell you frightening, deeply lonely and harrowing these things can be. They are near-death experiences (for me) of a terrible (not an enlightening) kind. The idea of anyone blaming the sufferer is serious madness.

    • shasha40

      Good Luck , I hope you and your doctor find something that works for you . It is a frightening illness.

      • MarionDee

        Heartfelt thanks.

        • shasha40

          You are truly Welcome .<3

    • aquaclara

      “The idea of anyone blaming the sufferer is serious madness.” Underscoring this here. Damn cult.

      Sorry, MarionDee, for your grand mals. I hope there is a positive solution found soon t- with good doctors –that will help you. And I’m sorry that Heribert died alone, feeling as you have described, without hope or help from a doctor.

      If there is anyone in the cult reading this, may they get the right treatment immediately.

      • MarionDee

        Thank you aquaclara. And Heribert died at only 31. Scientology is like Lady MacBeth–stained with blood that will never come out.

    • monkeyknickers

      How do you get over . . . or handle, I guess, who could “get over” . . . . being afraid all the time?

      Or wary, or anxious? I’m not sure which is the better word.

      What an enormous, frightening, and yes, really lonely feeling it must be Marion . . . .

      And whoever left you to LIE there in the rain, seizing . . . that cat is now number one on my “you must be exterminated” list. Disgusting.

      • MarionDee

        I was alone that time, in NYC. I assume that a lot of people just stepped over me. It was 8th Avenue; maybe they thought I was drunk (at some point, you stop shaking, and are just comatose.) I try to remember that lots of people here in Toronto helped take me to the hospital and didn’t leave their names, out of modesty or lack of time. Rather like the people here, they are heroes. In my case, these good Samaritans don’t know how much I would have loved to contact them, just to tell them “thank you”…. You know, I think that the grand mal experience itself is super-frightening. But I think I go into a kind of denial that another one might be on the horizon, and go out, because (of course) I must. Let me tell you a happier story. I had a cat, now passed away, who could tell when I was going to have a seizure. A Maine Coon, specifically. He would weave between my legs and push me toward the bedroom, where I’d lie on the bed. He was right, every time. How I wish I could have carried him around and outside as my official therapy cat, God bless him!

        • stanrogers

          There’s sort of a sense that “it’s just what you do” here in Tronna (although it seems to be fading over time). It’s not time constraints or modesty. I’ve run into the same sort of thing with Parkinson’s-associated dementia; there are times I don’t know where I am or why I’m there (or, thankfully far less often, who I am), and despite the fact that I’m, um, sort of emotional at the time and the physical component is often a near-twin for an overindulgence in crack, there is always somebody who will get me through it (whether that’s just waiting it out with me or getting me to someone or somewhere for greater help than they can provide themselves). When I don’t “come to” on the spot, I rarely find out whodunnit. And I’ve come to understand that they aren’t looking for thanks, and don’t particularly want an extended relationship of any sort; they care, but not about me as much as a suffering fellow human being.

          • MarionDee

            Stanrogers, I’m so sorry–terribly sorry–you have to go through this. We can both be glad we’re not on 8th Avenue! Yes, rescue is treated like a fact of life here. I do understand that people might fear that if they left their names after getting me to hospital, I might call them and get too effusive. (Or take out an ad in the Sun or the Star!) It is easier to give than to receive, and hard to figure out how to receive such grace at the hands of people I will never see. But I have to accept it as one more part of my medical mystery.

            “I have always relied on the kindness of strangers” has a much better ring in Toronto than it does in NYC (or in A Streetcar Named Desire.)

      • stanrogers

        I can’t speak for Marion, obviously, but I can speak for myself. You simply run out of fear eventually. Being in that moment or coming out of it, you don’t have a whole lot of choice — it is effing scary and the whole frailty and mortality thing hits you over the head in a way that makes it very difficult to ignore. But day-to-day? It’s impossible to live with the amount of fear that’s actually proportional to the problem, so you’re left with two choices: stop living; or forget to fear. It really is that simple. (I know a few people who’ve chosen the “stop living” option, in both senses. Neither is good.) And when life gives you a laugh-or-cry choice, crying gets really old really fast.

        It’s so much easier to enjoy the good parts than to dread the bad parts. I know that there is a time coming when there won’t be so very many good parts. Eventually I will become too stupid to live… and when that day comes, I hope to do something so spectacularly stupid on the way out that I make the papers worldwide and win me a Darwin award for my troubles. That would be a fitting memorial.

        • MarionDee

          “I can’t speak for Marion…” Actually, you did, stanrogers, and beautifully, too.

    • Interested

      Shit I hope you find something that works too.

      • MarionDee

        From your mouth to the ears of science!

    • Casabeca

      You are very strong one! I hope things get better for you.

      • MarionDee

        All the kindness here. Overwhelming. Thank you, Casabeca.

    • GlibWog

      Awww MarionDee I am sorry. I can’t imagine.. ( hugs)

      • MarionDee

        Hugs right back.

  • Veritas

    Those symptoms described by “JB” don’t really sound like epilepsy to me.

    • ze moo

      Yeah, that’s epilepsy with the victims perspective. The migraine like symptoms described in the narrative are common ‘triggers’ for seizures.

      • Karen715

        I agree. I started out with what seemed like migraines in my early teens. Auras, nausea, blindspots, headaches. By the time I was in my late teens, instead of the auras and nausea culminating in headaches, they instead led to loss of consciousness and seizures. They ended on their own in my early twenties. JB’s condition was likely self-limiting, as mine was, and auditing had nothing to do with it.

        • Robert Eckert

          My migraines would progress to glowing circles or shimmering colors and then to the visionary type of seizure, but as in your case this stopped happening in my 20’s.

        • Casabeca

          Glad you shared about your experienced. I just thought the whole write up was a lie. Correlation does not equal cause and effect. I wish the victims could see that.

      • richelieu jr

        I have both Migraines and petit mal epilepsy…

        There is no connection between them that I can see…

        • ze moo

          Perhaps ‘triggers’ is the wrong word. Symptoms before an attack may be more properly descriptive. I have a niece who has cerebral palsy and suffers from epilepsy. Getting her seizures under control without ‘zonking’ her out has been and continues to be a challenge.

  • Sherbet

    Robillard’s letter is an amazing indictment of DM’s management.

  • Sherbet

    Robillard makes me want to shove him one major step farther: If the tech worked, the tech would not produce defective, dysfunctional, and greedy scientologists like DM and the others who enforce the current gimme-gimme game plan of scientology.

  • TonyOrtega

    New post up.

    • Eivol Ekdal

      Seems like there are enough personal stories about bogus medical advice that you could do a post asking for stories from Ex Members about their experiences, similar to the one about disconnection.
      cheers – keep up the good work!

  • aquaclara

    Here is a Youtube video of fundraising for the Montreal org taken in 2009. I guess after 4 years of clapping and jumping, someone got a little tired out. Can’t say I blame them.
    This video is courtesy of Anon Shawi, who notes that this was taken 6 and a half hours into a fundraiser event that ran more than 8 hours long. Unbelievable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeihphUeXVs
    Hey, Pierre, glad you’re out.

    • Isaac Clarke

      Sheer lunacy

  • 0tessa

    Scientologists seem to think that practically all illnesses are psychosomatic illnesses. That epilepsy or migraine are psychomatic illnesses or even cancer (as they seem to think), is of course absolute nonsense. Even psychiatric illnesses are mostly not psychosomatic.
    To even hint at a possible recovery from such illnesses by auditing imaginary engrams and/or body thetans is just criminal. It should be forbidden by law.

    Some real psychosomatic illnesses might by alleviated or cured by certain auditing and other professional therapy. Just talking to a good friend might help as well, or taking a nice vacation.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      I think it IS forbidden by law actually Otessa, when they were forced to put warnings on the E meters. Of course, that didn’t stop them doing it. And the law still protects them.

      Infuriating.

    • phronsie

      I was just reading a TMZ article about Jenna Elfman blowing up at someone for their anti-scientology t-shirt, and someone mentioned in the comments that Jenna Elfman had once stated that she didn’t support fund-raisers for AIDS research because HIV is all in someone’s head? The epilepsy thing is pretty tragic, but I can see how their twisted thinking would lead to that kind of dangerous claim, but I failed to think about how far that quackery would have to extend — even after also reading about people dying because they refused medical treatment for cancer! What’s the saying you guys always say? Scientology; always worse than you think? 🙁

      • Jgg2012

        John Travolta’s son died of a seizure after he and Kelly (pursuant to Church doctrine) assumed that he did not need any medication.

        • Proud to be an SP

          Yes and I have wondered how they can stay in the cult that killed their son. We have some serious mind control going on here.

    • Casabeca

      I always wonder if it is more a selling point for services or a way to cut the weak ones from the herd. Any thought on that angle?

  • ze moo

    David Love at wire service canada has more on the Robillard rant. He pretty much echos Debbie Cooks rant. As he was Executive Director at the Montreal mOrg, he should be well known to most Canuck Clams.

    http://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=10739

    • Robert Eckert

      The US has Tony Ortega, the UK has Jonny Jacobsen, and Canada has David Love. If he doesn’t watch out, he’s going to turn into a journalist.

  • ze moo

    «Scientologists do believe in past lives […] [if you] always have a sore throat, maybe you were guillotined.»
    — Scientologist Sylvia Stanard,The J.T. Foxx Show, March 3rd, 2007 (listen to the show at The Wog Blog: “A Day of Entheta”, @ 16m40s)

    You have diabetes because your great to the 12th grandfather (actually you in a past life) ate too much honey at the at the town fair.

    I have forwarded the epilepsy link to the Food and Drug Admin and the Federal Trade Commission, you never know……

    • Marie Claire Wolf

      Thanks a lot ze moo 😉

    • Veritas

      Hubbard said psoriasis could be caused by being eaten by an animal in a past life. The stomach acid irritates the skin.

      • Studious Judious

        Wow, that’s too much! About the only thing I give LRH credit for is his imagination.

        • Casabeca

          Yes, imagination fueled by capitalism to profit himself. Unreal isn’t it SJ?

  • richelieu jr

    This is interesting.. Leah speaking out in People:

    http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20721105,00.html

    • batfink

      Sorry richelieu, i wanted to click on the link but I fatfingered the down vote button. Not sure if I can revers it? My apologies!!!
      batfink

      PS: I upvoted your contribution and the down vote disappeared. All good. 🙂

  • Zana

    Wow! Loved that message by Pierre Robillard! Thank you for sharing.

  • USA MRIID

    The Scientology crime syndicate is a business — a profit-driven, profit-motivated criminal business. It is not in the business of giving a damn about the health and welfare of the dimwit customers that fall for Scientology’s obvious frauds. Once the crooks have the mark’s money, that’s the end of the syndicate’s relationship with the mark.

  • USA MRIID

    “Scientology’s “Flag Land Base” in Clearwater, Florida”

    There have been so many homicides and suicides in that hotel that it’s known as the “Fort Homicide Hotel.”

  • Rachel Heidi

    My concern is still that people are leaving Scientology not because they’ve realized Hubbard is a scam, but leaving still infatuated with the fat, dead ginger and blaming all problems on Miscavige’s reign. Scientology itself is the problem, and while the COB is dismantling it at a faster rate than Ron ever could, too many ex’s still follow the “teachings” of that overrated sociopath. 🙁

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      You are right Rachel. But the good part is that once they leave…slowly…they can begin to explore the reality.
      Maybe I am just an optimist…but I hope critical thinking and honest examination eventually will win.

    • Jean

      WHY does that concern you? The corporate cult of scientology is perpetrating the abuses, so you should be happy any human escapes that. What they do in their own private lives afterwards is actually quite uninteresting. They can worship satan, become pagans, who cares… as long as the abuses stop. People are allowed to read books by sociopaths.

      • Spiderpope

        He should be concerned, as should anyone else for the reasons shown in this article: Dianetics tells people not to take medication and instead use their bullshit nonsense about thetans and auditing.

        Even without Miscavige and his ilk, the teachings of scientology are incredibly dangerous to the vulnerable.

  • Lady Squash

    For those who haven’t read Marty Rathbun’s “Memoir of A Scientology Warrior”, I recommend it. If you can wade through some of it that is heavily insider intrigue (boring) or other parts that are infuriating, there are some gems. One is about LRH’s wife, Mary Sue, who appeared in court as a witness for Scientology only to have the judge dismiss her testimony because she was confused by the evidence presented that LRH had lied about his past. LRH had kept the truth even from his wife. I found that fascinating and profoundly sad for Mary Sue.

    • Casabeca

      A new low. Ugh.

  • Sydjazz

    This says a lot. 🙂

  • Cynthia Cy

    I give all thanks to God almighty,I was once having the problem of epilepsy,for over four years,it come’s every two weeks,until i came across a post on the net about a Doc who can cure epilepsy,i contacted him, and he told me all i need to do,i took the medication for just five day,and that was all. for the past one year now i have not been attacked.you too can also contact him on alegbe3@gmail.com or 08104536179

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    I highly recommend nobody calls “Doctor Ethan” who sounds very much like a quack to me. The above message has been posted on various message boards where epilepsy is under discussion – https://disqus.com/by/liz_sousa/

    One might say that Liz Souza is simply very excited about her “cure” and wants to share with others, but while seizures can be controlled epilepsy can’t be cured.

    Don’t take medical advice or buy medicines from the internet; visit your doctor or GP.