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Love in the Time of Miscavige

Love in the Time of Miscavige

For years, she worked closely with Scientology’s leaders, David and Shelly Miscavige. And she was there when it all went wrong. By Tony Ortega We have a very unusual story for you today, and in order to tell it, we need to adopt some unusual conventions.

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We Told You Jamie DeWolf Would Blow Up!

UPDATE: PLEASE SEE THE NOTE WE’VE ADDED TO THE END OF THE POST

In 2011, we told you about Jamie DeWolf and his amazing monologue about his great-grandfather, Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, and we predicted that he would continue to gain fame for his views. Now, during this worst week ever for the church, Jamie continues to fulfill that prophecy in a big way.

At the local ABC affiliate in Los Angeles, KABC Channel 7, producer Lisa Bartley got another very fine show past that station’s uptight brass, and we’re especially impressed by some of the images she gathered for Jamie’s interview. But that wasn’t all the attention Jamie received this week.

Jamie_DeWolf_KABC

Apparently inspired by Lisa’s broadcast, Radar, the New York Post, the Daily Mail, and Perez Hilton all picked up on Jamie’s rap about his notorious great-grandfather yesterday.

It’s great to see Bartley get another show on the air. Previously, she really knocked it out of the park with an emotional program about Stefan and Tanja Castle, whose story we first ran into in Janet Reitman’s book Inside Scientology. Their story of disconnection and reunion really packs a wallop.

Bartley has an incredible archive of footage — we’ve run into her while reporting our own stories, and she’s always on top of the latest thing — but she has a hard time getting things to air, even though she does her homework and the stories she does have multiple layers of confirmation.

Despite that pushback, Lisa has managed to get a few stories out. But what’s the excuse for her national network?

At the national level, ABC has been a disaster when it comes to Scientology stories. Dan Harris did a fine piece on Debbie Cook last February (well, we did poke a little fun at it at the time), but since then, the Disney-owned network has been unable to keep up with NBC’s Rock Center and all the rest of the media covering Scientology’s major plunge into crisis.

After news of the Tom Cruise-Katie Holmes divorce broke on June 29, ABC’s 20/20 quickly mobilized, and put together hours and hours of interviews with people like the Headleys and Jenna Miscavige Hill for what they planned to be a full hour on the crises gripping Scientology. Just a few days later, the show got spiked when a settlement in the divorce was announced.

Then, after Maureen Orth’s story about Tom Cruise in Vanity Fair came out in October and she went on all the networks to defend it against church calumnies, 20/20 again went into action, and interviewed her for a segment. As we pointed out at the time, the interview was listed on our cable system the day it was to be aired. But sometime during that day, the interview got spiked.

Finally, this past Thursday morning, on Good Morning America Dan Harris got to air a few seconds of the footage from last summer’s 20/20 interview with Jenna Miscavige Hill when he did a story about Larry Wright’s book being published. But by the next day, we noticed that the clip was gone from ABC’s website. (If you scroll down the page, however, you can still find the transcript of Dan’s segment. We sent an e-mail to an ABC producer asking about the clip being pulled, but haven’t heard back.)

Come on, ABC. Your audience is fascinated by this stuff, and people like Dan Harris and Lisa Bartley are working hard to bring you information that is verified and unlibelous, even if it is outrageous. Show us some backbone, already.

UPDATE: We just talked to Mark Oppenheimer, who assures us that he has no relationship of any kind with Scientology official John Carmichael. In yesterday’s post, one of our commenters suggested that Carmichael and Oppenheimer were college classmates or had some other close relationship which put into question Oppenheimer’s coverage of Scientology. (Oppenheimer is the leading religion columnist at the New York Times.) Carmichael is in his 60s and Oppenheimer is only 38, and we doubted that this was true. Today, Oppenheimer called us to confirm that he had talked to Carmichael for a story some five years ago, but otherwise he was nothing but a story source. We hope this note will help end the rumor that they had some other connection. Although we had some criticisms of Oppenheimer’s recent New Republic story, we have much respect for the work he does.

PS: Oppenheimer also was very gracious about our criticisms (always the sign of a real pro), and he explained that he still feels, from a social science perspective, that what’s missing is the kind of immersive embedding that a scholar or reporter could do by hanging out for a year or so with average, non-high-ranking Scientologists to really soak up their experience. We can see how that would be valuable, but we still think it’s important for someone with that aim to have the backing of a major organization rather than a college newspaper or a zine. We may disagree on some points, but it was a very fruitful discussion.

————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on January 19, 2013 at 10:45

 

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  • California

    Please.

    Last week was the “Week That Was” in terms of media and publications. I especially enjoyed the revelation from JustCallMeMary of the possible old college ties between religious journalist NYT’s Mark Oppenheimer and head of NY Org John Carmichael. However, I also want to state that some of my university student days colleagues have done wonderful things and some not and I would not want to be associated with as being part of the bad guys’ behaviors because we attended the same institutions, even the same programs and the same years. Just a caution there.

    The main issue is that in the bid to offer both sides of the story that some media do not go after the real full story. To be generous. Others just seem to be duped and never correct it.

    Today with the on-line community there is immediate feed-back when something is published that is just plain wrong.

    Media folk seem to listen to media folk more than they listen to the general public so I hope that Tony’s statement is heard by ABC.

    • TonyOrtega

      Carmichael is in his 60s. Oppenheimer is about 40. We’re pretty sure this nonsense about them being college roommates or something is completely bogus. Oppenheimer has quoted Carmichael in some stories in the past. That doesn’t imply a relationship of any kind other than writer and subject, as far as we know. Please stop perpetrating this unfounded rumor.

      • California

        Tony, I am not perpetrating the unfounded rumor.

        I am bringing attention to what “JustCallMeMary” posted yesterday here and on yesterday’s site. In my response to yesterday’s postings, I asked for more details about the supposed relationship…. and you have answered the unasked question about age disparity, although in the last 20 years, it has not been unusual for any given academic program, even at the undergraduate level, to have age disparities of 30 years or more among the students.

        I think we are on the same side of this issue, Tony.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

          When JustCallMeMary posted that yesterday, JohnP immediately questioned whether there was any backup for it, and it appeared that Mary had derived this simply from a misreading of one of the stories she had linked. That story mentioned Carmichael as a Cornell alum, but did not say that this is where Oppenheimer met Carmichael– and it turns out that Carmichael was, apparently, lying about ever attending Cornell anyhow.

          • California

            Why am I not surprised that Carmichael was lying about attending Cornell?

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

              I don’t know ;-) Why are you not surprised?

          • 1subgenius

            Yeah, any suggestion that douchebag went past high school is suspect.
            Miscavige, Rinder, Rathbun, Tommy Davis, no “higher education” in any of them, nor likely to be in any life-long Scientologist.

            • richelieu jr

              This is quite true and telling as well, I find. Scientology really plays to the ‘self-made’ ‘man (and woman, natch) type of thinking, much as Randism does… It plays to the superiority complexes of people who have ‘always known they were better than this’ or ‘always knew they were right and the teachers were wrong,’

              Their tapes and literature to convince kids to drop out of school play explicitly to this mindset, and it is rewarded with extra ‘Us vs Them’ chips in the ‘church’.

              It plays to the know-nothing bu know better-than-you faction that hoisted Sarah Palin to near-power, and it is a strong strain in the American psyche, culture and politics… L Ron knew where to loo for pretentious misfits he could cut off from society and feed bullshit until they sprouted like malevolent mushrooms in the dark of the church…

              Please note that I am specifically referencing the power-structure in ScilonLand, not your average Scilon, who tend to be well-meaning, curious and perhaps were a bit troubled or lost at the fatal moment when they were ushered into an org…

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

              You make a good point. Both Hubbard and Rand espouse the idea that caring for others is a weakness (Hubbard at least pays altruism faint lip-service but in the end if it’s you or me he’d say me over you.)

            • villagedianne

              Good comparison between Hubbard and Rand. As I said in a comment on another TO blog post, Rand also created a cult around her in which she was the final arbiter of Truth. This was a group of people who met regularly at her apartment. Rand also broke up families when she banished people who had relatives in her “cult”.
              The group finally dwindled when a lot of people were kicked out by her or left rather than face her withering criticism. At the end she was left with just a few third-rate people.

            • Bob

              1subgenius, do you mean people raised in Scientology or those who spent the greater part of their life in the church. You mention Tommy Davis in the same breath as Mike Rinder. Which is it? Is their no “higher education” in any of those born into Scientology and any of those who spent the greater part of their life in Scientology? Be specific. Is it both or one or the other? I always like to know the specifics when some one generalizes about a group or class of persons.

            • 1subgenius

              “Likely”=sumbunall (some but not all)

              My point: once the tech kicks in there is no need for further wog edumacation.

            • Bob

              1subgenius,
              Got it. But I have ONLY seen that apply to the areas of religion, religious philosophy and mental healing. I know numerous Scnrs who continued their upper education, but those were primarily in the professional fields. I have found that there are about the same number of really well read and educated Scnrs in the church as outside. If you just look not listen you see that Hubbard was a voracious reader and when I was around him he was studying lots of stuff. Scnrs seemed to ignore that and keep themselves busy redoing the basics, on courses or listening to the biillions of feet of tape Hubbard used to record his lectures. I have observed that those people who have a more well rounded education are those who more quickly become deprogrammed. I think that is why new dictators always round up the professors, educators and intelligencia and shoot them.

            • Mrs Libnish

              You could use Vance’s book as an example of how he had to kick and scream and basicaly say “I’m doing it” to get his law degree. They continuously tried to convince him he didn’t need to go back. It was because of his dad’s hardline stance on scamatology that he was able to stay in college and get his degree.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Bob, in your observation of Hubbard studying lots of stuff…
              What stuff? What was Hubbard reading and studying?
              I am curious as to what it is you witnessed. I know if I had been under his influence I would have been making copious mental notes of those details.

            • Bob

              Bury, Unfortunately I was not in my copious notes stage. But he was studying other cultures, current news, he kept up with that, he was very much interested in pop music And artistic trends. For reasons of privacy I can’t be a lot more specific although I would like to.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Good enough. I got the gist.

            • Midwest Mom

              I remember in one of Hubbard’s Orders of the Day, he referred to a tabloid story about a boy in Germany whose parents were claiming to be the reincarnated U.S.President John F.Kennedy. Hubbard was reporting it as fact and used it to reinforce his ideas of reincarnation.

            • Bob

              I wish Tony would publish more OODs they were so telling on the actual day to day attitudes and lives of those on the ship. Hubbard did have disdain for the tabloids though. Love to see that OODs.

            • Midwest Mom

              Bob, Do you think I should erase my first post to Peter? I think you would be able to be more relatable to him,since you have a lot of the same experiences and viewpoints.

            • grundoon
            • Midwest Mom

              Thanks, Grundoon. :)

            • grundoon

              Hubbard’s study seemingly consisted of skimming just enough to pose as an authority in front of those who knew no better, and to add an air of omniscience to his writings and lectures. As someone whose respect for experts in any field seemed to extend no farther than himself, Hubbard likely would skim no more than a chapter or two before being carried away by the torrent of his own grand thoughts on the subject. Like a rooster, crowing proudly and pecking here and there at random grains of knowledge.

            • Bob

              Having watched Hubbard develop his own approach to a particular subject, I know he was not “skimming just enough to pose as an authority”. He came up with some very useful approaches to a complex subject. And this was verified by those who did know better and appreciated Hubbards ability to contribute some new insights into a well worn area. And he did not profess now to be an authority in the area but stated that his contribution into the subject might create a few shortcuts to learning the subject more easily. I do not say this was always the case but it was very obvious for this particular period of time and subject.

            • grundoon

              Ok, thanks. Bob, if you were there and saw this, I have to respect your observation. On the other hand, I’m not sure that your anonymous generalities automatically outweigh my anonymous generalities, so for now, my opinion remains true for me. I hope someday the time will be right for you to fill in all the specifics and tell your story in full.

            • Bob

              Grundoon. LOL. Yes I agree. And certainly it is hard to be credible when in fact I can’t be fully verifiable. I do appreciate your curtesy towards opposing views. I have noticed all the nasty name callers(no specifics given) have dropped off Tonys blog. Much more pleasant and more informative too.

          • California

            BTW, I never saw the exchange ‘tween JustCallMeMary and JohnP yesterday …. still have not had a chance to read it but will do so today.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              Was epic C.

            • California

              Truly. And over-due.

              Thanks, JohnP.

              I was swamped yesterday and never did check out the links offered by JustCallMeMary as JohnP did…. and I am glad he did so. And he brought this whole matter and the possible result of invalidating Tony O’s and others hard and careful work with other responsible journalists to the forefront of the discussion. Where Tony literally (look at the updates) gave us the needed information from Mark ) for both yesterday’s and today’s posts.

              Tomorrow is Mavericks Surf Contest for us here on the left coast, plus the SF 49′ers will be advancing to the Super Bowl, fingers crossed. What a week, what a Sunday and I cannot wait to see what happens next week.

            • California

              Indeed it was.

              Thank you for guiding me to it.

              Long over-due.

        • John P.

          And JustCallMeMary is completely wrong. It’s important to use factual details when countering nonsense from cult apologists (whether they’re willing tools or merely confused).

          Oppenheimer’s own text in the HuffPo article, said in 2007 that Carmichael had been “in” for almost 40 years, and given that Oppenheimer was only 33 when he wrote that, there is no chance that they went to school together, regardless of the general incidence of older folks going back to pursue undergraduate education. Unless the cult lets senior “ecclesiastical” personnel take years off from their duties to go get a degree…

          • California

            Actually, it is not unusual for alumni to return to institutions to drum up support or get publicity for their various projects… even getting permission to speak to undergraduate and graduate student groups. Given how the Moonies focused on university students, until that blew up spectacularly in their faces in the early 1980′s, and how LRH wanted and got highly educated people into SCN back in the day, including university professors, it was somewhat feasible, given the data that was given to us yesterday, that the two knew each other. And that Oppenheimer might have a relationship of some sort with Carmichael (source, etc.), that influenced what he wrote and his slant/hook on the matter.

            In any event, the issue is, for right now, getting ABC to do more balanced reporting on SCN.

          • richelieu jr

            Hear, hear. Le us leave the making up facts and wholesale fabulism to their side, shall we?

            It is in great measure what we are complaining about from them. Facts, forceful yet civil argument and polite discourse are more than enough for the likes of L Ron’s minions.

            Bull Baiting is in their handbook for a reason…

            (though I do reserve the right to let my mockery run free on occasion…)

          • California

            Dear JP:

            I never saw what you guys wrote yesterday on yesterday’s postings until I read it this morning, AFTER I wrote my comment in today’s postings, and got the feedback from Tony about “perpetuating” something. I first went, “Huh?”, got myself a fresh cup of coffee, patted the pooch on the head, and kept on reading, first here and then back yesterday.

            Now, I have a much clearer picture of what went on, especially after the update that Tony put in and I thanked him for checking with Mark O and posting the correct information.

            I did not mean to “perpetuate” inaccuracies. As you are very aware, I am persnickety about facts here to the point of annoying some people sometime.

            And I really get the challenge of dealing with respected journalists who may have made a bad decision about advising young reporters but who also usually get their facts right, even if their conclusions from those facts can and should face some challenge.

            So, following in your lead from yesterday (and did you see the comment about SCN using the wrong Chinese script if they want to communicate with the billions of people on mainland China…. I have sent it to other old China hands who share my giggles), I am sorry for inadvertently adding to the confusion this morning with my posting that started with me referencing JustCallMeMary’s incorrect posting yesterday.

            I have no problem with being called upon about posting something that was incorrect, Tony and John P., even if it was inadvertent…..

            The best of us do that here.

            We are in for a challenging few weeks/months ahead, as DM/SCN begins some real crumbling down.

            Let’s be kind, gentle, accurate and help each other if we drop the ball.

            Like we just did.

      • Sherbet

        To me, the issue is not the tenuous and probably bogus connection between the two men. It’s Oppenheimer’s failure to do his homework.

        • California

          Yes, and this has been a problem for years. And the irresponsible suggestion that young reporters go into orgs bothers me to the point that I am bringing it up at the highest levels of NYT.

          Every person that comes to an org and wants to be involved either with classes or something else is asked, at some point, if they are a journalist. If they answer, correctly, yes, they are shown the door. If they answer, No, as part of the “undercover” assignment, they probably will be eventually found out. I do not want anybody, especially young reporters, put in this position as SCN is going down HARD.

          Us experienced folk are being targeted right now by OSA and OSA-bots but we have, usually, law enforcement and other support to deal with it. I do not know what long-term support and protection young reporters would have……

          • Sherbet

            Cynical people who sneer and loudly announce, “Hey, why doesn’t somebody just (insert activity here)….” are found in every coffee shop and office lunchroom. They think they have a simple answer to the world’s most complicated problems, and nobody but they ever thought of it before. It’s fine to have an opinion unbacked by research, and ignorance is no crime. But for Oppenheimer to have a national audience and reputation as some sort of expert on religion is just laughable, and, in the case of the evil cult, his words are irresponsible.

      • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

        Either way, I miss Spy terrorizing Liz Smith!

  • BuryTheNuts2

    At this point I think ABC is simply missing the boat. How long are they going to watch other media scoop the stories when they have all that footage in the can? It doesn’t make sense anymore that they are fearful.

    Who is the Scientologist In upper management at ABC?

    • 1subgenius

      Minnie.
      As my mom told me, that’s why Mickey had her put away. She was fucking Goofy.

      • richelieu jr

        Rim shot!

    • mirele

      Maybe not at ABC but at Disney?

    • stillgrace

      “Who is the Scientologist In upper management at ABC?”
      Wouldn’t that be a great investigative story?

      • moxonmoxoff

        Yes it would! Maybe we should get that whip Oppenheimer on it.

        • i-Betty

          LOL!

        • stillgrace

          Oh yeah, he’ll get right to the heart of it! Not.

        • Captain Howdy

          Yea he’s the grandson of the A-bomb inventor. That’s the ticket !

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Then he ought a be able to make this go nuclear then!

        • http://www.facebook.com/gayle.smith.3994 Gayle Smith

          Better yet, let’s get NBC on it.

      • Mrs Libnish

        Get Anon on it, they’ll sniff that out in a heartbeat.

      • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

        Re: ABC News LA, we in RTC refer you to the Founder’s policy:

        “The goal of the Department [of Government Affairs] is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by high level ability to control, and in its absence, by low level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control such agencies.” HCOPL 15 August 1960, “Dept. of Govt. Affairs

        We in RTC do not need an executive or a middle manager at ABC when a low level staffer who can write KR’s will do just fine.

        No one here gives the Church enough credit for being clever, treacherous, and shrewd. That is why we are surviving and flourishing and prospering with tens and hundreds of millions of members and having to open new Ideal Orgs at the rate of 700 per day. Why just this morning, COB opened 215 new Ideal Orgs in Malaysia, performed a mass marriage of 12,000 Scientologists, welcomed 5,000 new Sea Org members aboard — and this was before his private lunch with the Prime Minister!

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

          With a schedule like that one wonders how he finds the time to abuse staff.

        • stillgrace

          “prospering with tens and hundreds of millions of members” … priceless math.

        • John P.

          Didn’t we learn in “Zoolander” that the prime minister of Malaysia was against slave labor? If so, why is COB meeting with him?

    • http://www.facebook.com/gayle.smith.3994 Gayle Smith

      I think that’s the real question. It’s one thing to be on the slow boat, but something else entirely when stories that are ready to air are torpedoed and even the smallest section that does air gets yanked from circulation.

    • Chocolate Velvet

      My thoughts exactly.

      • ze moo

        Cruise and Travolta just have to threaten Disney with not doing one of their projects or not publicizing their latest movie and Disney rolls over. Somehow, Giovanni Ribisi still does the Chelsey Handler show and she is always making fun of scamatology. It is rare to see a scieno joke on Letterman or Leno, I would think that either of them has enough clout to do whatever they wanted. The wacky world of who scieno’s can influence is shrinking daily…..

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

          Does either of them have a project in the works at Disney? I think that while Cruise still has box office clout I wonder how effective a Travolta threat would be.

          • mook

            ” I wonder how effective a Travolta threat would be.”
            Kelly has him by the balls and will probably do the threatening.

            I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this before, but a friend of a friend of a friend had the unfortunate honor of working with Miss Preston on TV movie, and she is a bitch on wheels.. just terrible attitude and barked at her handlers every 5 seconds.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

              The connection could be Travolta/Preston. In 2010 Preston was in “The Last Song” a Touchstone (Disney) movie. They both were in “Old Dogs”, a 2009 Disney product. In 2008, Preston was in “The 10th Circle”, a Lifetime TV movie. Lifetime is jointly owned by Disney and Hearst Preston was in “Sky High”, a 2005 Disney product. There maybe more but this in itself shows a strong connection.

            • villagedianne

              It’s terribly unfeminist of me to say this. But it sounds like all Miss Preston needs is a good f***.

            • lara solnes

              and she conciders her an artist what a laugh

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

              “barked at her handlers every 5 seconds.”

              Using those vaunted CO$ communication skills, I see.

          • ze moo

            I think both have done work with Disney’s Touchstone productions. Travolta may be milking past work and favors, but don’t count him out yet. As for clout, I only know no one is waiting Kirstie Allly’s approval on anything…..

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

              You’re right. They’ve both been in movies for Disney or Touchstone. I’ve listed some below. Preston is more connected.

        • Unex Skcus

          Creedy during his arrest of Gordon Deitrich, after Deitrich ran a skit on his TV show mocking the Chancellor: “It’s not so funny now, is it, funnyman?”
          (V for Vendetta)

    • mook

      “Who is the Scientologist In upper management at ABC?”

      well, they did just have Kirstie Alley back on DWTS, w/ Kelly P (who is buddy-buddy with Misscavige) in the audience every night…

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Point taken.

    • http://www.facebook.com/dwight.geiger.3 Dwight Geiger

      That is a great question.There has to be one.Why did they do it in the first place and why was it canned.A lot of money went into it so there has to be a reason.These are questions that need to be answered by ABC and it is time that people start asking.

  • j238

    ABC is a Disney-owned network, not a station.

    • TonyOrtega

      Yeah, I knew that. Dumb mistake. Fixed.

    • richelieu jr

      Little-known fact: It is also the start of the alphabet!

      I am so not kidding!

      • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

        Word.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

          Clear.

    • Midwest Mom

      It was also a hit song by the Jackson Five.

  • TheNextMrsTomCruise

    It’s about damn time that Jamie DeWolf got some attention. His monologue is awesome, and he and his family have suffered enough. I’d love to see him perform on Comedy Central. Comedy Central hasn’t done a thing about Scientology since Steven Colbert came out dressed as Xenu.

    As far as genetic heritage goes, the red hair looks a helluva lot better on Jamie than it ever did on Elron…

    • http://www.facebook.com/dwight.geiger.3 Dwight Geiger

      I don’t get why Jamie is not interviewed on TV from all of the media stations period.He has a story to tell that coincides with everything that some of the media have finally grown the balls to report about.The time has come,everyone needs to speak out to everyone els.Don’t know if it is Jamie or the cult or that the press just does not have the understanding of how to grab a great story when it shows up.Jamie would be a great story.Grab it if you are a journalist.You could make history.
      I

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

    GQ decides to tap Katie Holmes’ striptease from 12 years ago (link is NSFW) as sexiest performance of the 21st century, and twits Tom Cruise about it:

    http://www.gq.com/women/photos/201302/sexiest-women-21st-century-gq-february-2013#slide=3

    • Captain Howdy

      Thanks for your fine analytical, intellectual link :)

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Yeah, and her tits look spectacular too! Lol.

        Yeah Capt. I know… I was just interpreting for people who may not understand your breast fixation.
        : )

        • Captain Howdy

          I downloaded that clip quite sometime ago as part of my research into new religious movements.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            It was also an OK movie. Katie did bad good.

    • http://www.facebook.com/dee.fogger Dee Fogger

      Maybe you’re distracted by her breasts but did you happen to notice the odd underwear? It looks like she’s packing in that linked picture.

  • moxonmoxoff

    Sometimes when people are seeking to retain a lawyer for a particular matter, they will interview all the firms with the best expertise and reputation regarding that matter. They do this not only to find and engage their own counsel, but as a defensive strategy. The strategy is to create a conflict of interest that prevents all the firms you’ve interviewed from representing your adversary. This is accomplished by disclosing to each firm confidential information about the matter to the firm such that the firm cannot represent the adversary in the matter because it is privy to your confidential information. The effectively deprives the adversary of retaining the best counsel.

    Is it possible something like this happened with ABC? Did they perhaps get people to agree to those early exclusive interviews with the intention of keeping the footage under wraps and from other networks from getting the same story. Is there a Scientology mole in the network playing this strategy out? Or does it not work that way in TV land?

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Great points!
      I am suspecting similar.

      • moxonmoxoff

        Nice to see I have company. What size hat do you wear? I’ve got the tinfoil out . . .

    • i-Betty

      Wow, that is a seriously brilliant theory. And so sneaky.

    • Midwest Mom

      Doesn’t Anne Archer’s husband work at ABC? I assume he is privy to network gossip which can be used to blackmail the execs by the Co$.

    • Deckard__Cain

      Heh….that was a plot point in the Sopranos, but not likely for interviewees unless the interviewees signed an actual agreement to this, and we know that didn’t happen. The same people told the same stories on different news outlets. And there would have to be consideration for signing away their ‘stories’, which is akin to paying for interviews.

  • TheWidowDenk

    Interesting monologue. Jamie needs to correct the part about the pulps paying “a penny a page.” They usually paid a penny a word.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

      Good catch.

      • cultwife

        It’s a terrific performance, though. Monologues are incredibly hard to do. Color me impressed.

        • i-Betty

          It’s so clever and incisive. I first saw it online a year ago and was blown away. The guy is very talented.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Caught that too.
      I am glad to see you are still visiting us.
      Is your foot all healed up?

      • TheWidowDenk

        Yes, thanks, the foot has finally healed. Come to find out, it was a stress fracture caused when the dogs literally pulled me over whilst walking in the park.

        Haven’t posted — although I’ve wanted to — because I couldn’t get properly logged in to discuss or whatever it’s called. I somehow managed to fix that this morning.

        • BuryTheNuts2

          Glad to hear and welcome back to posting.

        • richelieu jr

          It’s spelled ‘disqus’ but pronounced ‘DISGUST’…

          • moxonmoxoff

            richelieu jr.: have you recovered from your brush brusha electronic incident from the other nite?

            • richelieu jr

              Yeah, I got little sleep, seem to be a bit more sane, for the moment- thanks ;-)

            • richelieu jr

              Just don’t loo at that tooth too long I am warning you.. No one is immune!

            • richelieu jr

              Yeah, I got little sleep, seem to be a bit more sane, for the moment- thanks ;-)

          • TheWidowDenk

            Yes, I see the correct spelling now. Thanks.

    • BosonStark

      I had to give you a “vote up” on that one Wider, but isn’t a shame that Hubbard could make up volumes of BS whole cloth about his adventurous past with the Blackfoot tribe, Pygmies and bandits, then charge people outrageous amounts of money, and ruin their lives at times? Why aren’t you concerned with the accuracy of the things Hubbard claimed? I’m just curious how that works?

      At least Jamie is close, and it doesn’t change the meaning of what he was trying to get across. Can you imagine what it was like to grow up as Jamie? How about growing up as Quentin Hubbard? It’s more than interesting — it’s pretty shocking, heartfelt and honest. Jamie is one brave, bold dude to speak his truth like that — what is true for him.

      I wish Quentin had written down his thoughts and feelings, but being stuck on his father’s slave ship, he would have probably been drowned at sea, if he wrote what he was really feeling. Jamie speaks for Quentin and all the people who suffered and lost their money and lives in this cult.

    • villagedianne

      I caught that too. Artistic license?

      • TheWidowDenk

        I suppose it could be …

        • BuryTheNuts2

          widow denk….you and I are old days..
          :iam 1946-7
          U r not too far behind …

  • Sherbet

    “Does mental illness run in your family?” Can’t stop laughing!

    • Observer

      I was laughing and had goosebumps at the same time. Respect to Jamie.

    • ze moo

      It doesn’t run, it gallops……

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

      In some other clip of him I saw (doubtless on Tony’s blog back at VV somewhere), Jamie says when he told his therapist his great-grandfather had founded a major cult, the therapist took it as a sign of Jamie’s tendency to megalomania.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=621438755 Joey Shmoey

    I made myself watch Katie Couric interviewing Jada Pinkett Smith whose cause is “fighting human trafficking” . Not one question was asked or even hinted at about Co$ and human trafficking. Letters written, no response.

    • http://www.facebook.com/dwight.geiger.3 Dwight Geiger

      Katie is a complete narcissitic idiot period.She is without doubt the worst interviewer of all time.Looks are all she has going for her and that is fading.No brains period but in america you don’t need them,you just need to look good and be able to talk.You don’t need to know anything and she doesn’t.

  • Sherbet

    Do we know why Jamie has a sci logo tattoo? Sense of irony? Willful copyright violation?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

      I think he addressed that in a YouTube video. I can’t remember what he said, though.

    • mirele

      Both?

      • Sherbet

        As long as it isn’t respect, it’s fine with me!

        • mirele

          Oh, I sincerely doubt there’s not even a scintilla of respect in what Jamie’s doing. He’s triple-dog daring them to sue him.

    • moxonmoxoff

      From one of Tony’s old posts:

      “So why, I asked him, does he have a tattoo of the Scientology symbol on his right arm, which is clearly visible in the video? ‘I am a huge fan of irony,’ he says. ‘Also, on my left arm is the symbol for the Zodiac killer. I knew I had the power in me to be a killer or a god. And they are reminders to me that artists have the potential to go wrong.’”

      Link: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/08/jamie_dewolf_top_25_crippling_scientology.php

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

        Thanks. I should have known it was at Tony’s blog.

      • Captain Howdy

        OOOH a Zodiac tattoo ! That’s what i should have gotten instead of what I did seeing as how I’m from S.F and a SK buff. Rats !

        • Midwest Mom

          Regretting that Mike Tysonish face tattoo, Captain?

          • Captain Howdy

            Face tattoos are for hippies and prison but boys. Most tats suck, especially on women.

  • mirele

    Several years ago, a coworker invited me to a Jehovah’s Witness function. I went, it was odd. But it was the after-party (yes, with alcohol) that was interesting. The Jehovah’s Witnesses thought *Mormons* were weird. Now keep that in mind while I write the following:

    Regarding Oppenheimer and his hangups with “normal” Scientologists…I mentioned Brian Culkin yesterday, as well as the many people who have had their stories posted on Marty’s website. But I forgot one Scientologist who is no longer with us and who was a “public”–Lisa McPherson. But you know, Oppenheimer can’t talk to her anymore, because she’s dead. That’s right, a Scientology public was taken into the Fort Harrison hotel back in 1995 and put through a process that ended up with her death. There are no “normal” Scientologists, because Scientology is not normal when a “public” Scientologist can end up dead like Lisa McPherson. Pfffffth, Mark Oppenheimer.

    • stillgrace

      Lisa’s brain cracked the same way Nancy Many’s did. Lisa didn’t have a husband that cared about her to rescue her from the hospital. Instead, the $cios fetched her, took her away, and the rest is sad, sad history. Let’s never forget DM was personally “handling” her case when she cracked. I want to see the documents Marty admitted to destroying.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Yeah, and no one will ever answer for that.
        Thanks Marty.
        I hope they all wake up in a puddle of sweat at night seeing Lisa’s face.

    • Midwest Mom

      I wish that Oppenheimer would interview Kyle Brennan’s mother and also his father to open his eyes.

    • DeElizabethan

      YES! when I finally looked at the Lisa case I was stunned and it was a major help to gaining my own sanity.

  • BosonStark

    “I’ve slept with bandits in Mongolia, and hunted with Pygmies in the Philippines.”

    What was he hunting for — more bandits to sleep with or did he sleep with the Pygmies and just isn’t saying? Would Marty Rathbun say he was being metaphorical?

    That short piece was a thing of beauty. Jamie was great and the inter cuts with Hubbard and photos enhanced it perfectly. They should distribute that to all their affiliates.

    • stillgrace

      Lisa Bartley is really awesome at what she does. I want more of her reports.

    • BosonStark

      I can’t stop thinking about the Hubbard clip about bandits and Pygmies. Instead of asking about Xenu, they’ve got to sit all the Sci-lebrities down — Sweeney like — and ask them if they believe Hubbard really slept with bandits and hunted with Pygmies? And play that clip. More clips of Hubbard absolutely MUST be used. Damn what a loon!

      At the time Hubbard was in China and/or the Philippines, I think he was 17, and with his parents, and it is pretty well known that what he was doing was mundane and didn’t involve either bandits or Pygmies. In fact, I think Hubbard kept some journal at the time, and it was full of ordinary activities.

      It wasn’t until Hubbard discovered Dianutty at the dentist’s office, that he met the really interesting people in his galactic travels over four quadrillion years.

      • Sherbet

        “And I’ve slept with train engineers on Venus…”

        • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

          Ooooh… “train”; now THAT’s in my head! ;)

      • Captain Howdy

        Just think, no nitrous oxide, no $cientology.

    • John P.

      I’ve slept with bandits in Mongolia

      So what. I bet there are numerous biker chicks who can say that they’ve slept with multiple members of The Bandits and multiple members of The Mongols. Hubbard is not the only one.

    • Rick Mycroft

      Super Adventure Club!

    • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

      I have been to the Philippines many times… there are no “pygmies” there. There are tribes in Africa… but calling them that is highly offensive, and they are more socially civilized than we are.

      • The Dark Avenger

        Yes, you’d have to be ignorant to be impressed by someone who talked about pygmies in the Philippines.

    • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

      I’ve never gone to bed with a Mongolian… but have woken up with a few.

    • VickiStubing

      Why do I find myself humming that song “I’ve Never Been To Me?” Ugh, not a very pleasant trip down memory lane. I think I’d rather listen to “It’s a Small World!”

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Oh My god…I’ve Never been to Me? Who sung that?
        I remember that silly song..played it over and over…but can’t remember who sang it.

        • Midwest Mom

          That song was one of the song’s my mom told us was not something proper young ladies should sing.

          • John P.

            Like Paul Anka’s “Having my Baby”? That one used to send my mom into an apoplectic fit every time it came on the radio.

            • Midwest Mom

              I remember I was singing part of a Lady Marmalade song and my mother wasn’t enamored by my new French vocabulary, to say the least!

            • grundoon
            • Midwest Mom

              Ha Ha Another dream unfulfilled; I never achieved my goal of being on Soul Train.

            • grundoon

              You can still sing along to the video, and dance too, if you want.

          • tetloj

            Taking the hand of a preacher men and making love in the sun just doesn’t go down to well in the Catholic church, huh.

            • Midwest Mom

              Neither did “Afternoon Delight” when my sisters and I were harmonizing along to the transistor radio when my Grandparents were visiting, one time.

            • tetloj

              Afternoon delight – isn’t that just like turkish delight? hehehe

            • Midwest Mom

              I’ve heard of the candy “Turkish Delight”.

            • Captain Howdy
            • grundoon

              That is the most awesome 70s pop medley evah! “Afternoon Delight” is at 1:28, followed by “Having My Baby!”

              How times change. This was playing in the elevator the last time I went to the dentist’s office.

            • ze moo

              I like the Ramones, ‘The KKK took my Baby Away”.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx0zeMbLOCY

            • Midwest Mom

              Cool! I love how it also includes the Carpenter’s song, “Close to You”. I have a college buddy who possesses a blackmail cassette of me singing that song.

            • grundoon

              Sad for Karen whenever I hear that.

            • grundoon

              http://youtu.be/Fz1ex78QeQI
              (Capt. Howdy forgive me)

            • Midwest Mom

              The lead singer looks exactly like political commentator Alan Colmes!

            • grundoon

              Creepy!

        • tetloj

          Charlene?

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Ewh. yuh.

  • Observer

    “It’s not everyone who can write a book that turns the world on its ear.”

    omg, that smug doughy malevolent douchebag. I’m not a violent person, but that clip made me want to take that pipe of his and shove it down his throat sideways, then throttle him with his ridiculous ascot. And to think there are people who still revere that lying, self-aggrandizing gasbag of a charlatan as the greatest human being who ever lived. He *had* to use mind control–those who didn’t see through him at first would have eventually without the proper conditioning. And now we’re seeing that even the conditioning is failing at an ever-increasing rate.

    Leave, Scientologists! You can do it!

  • moxonmoxoff

    Internal staff memo from The Atlantic re the electronic incident from the other day. It’s pretty vague and they cop to nothing except “making some mistakes.” I’m curious to see their new policy, however.

    http://observer.com/2013/01/the-atlantic-staff-memo-about-that-scientology-advertorial/

    • Sherbet

      Oh, that makes it MUCH clearer…

      I’m glad the ad had the obiquitious, tacky, Technicolor, 50 shades of turquoise DM photo to alert savvy readers that the piece came from cos and not The Atlantic.

  • stillgrace

    Jamie in the New York Post: “They fight nasty. Part of it actually is a certain malicious glee in going after their targets.” Malicious glee …hmmmmm. Hubbard and DM are the source of that.

  • John P.

    Why does Disney avoid going after Scientology? Simple: there are some significant similarities in their stories…

    Stuck in the 1950s: Disney sells a vision of a brighter future that is rooted in the 1950s, with miraculous gadgets to entertain and amuse us. Scientology sells a vision of a world rooted in the 1950s, where guarding against atomic warfare is a minute-by-minute necessity, and where psychiatrists are unable to cure mental illness; Scientology is the optimism of self-determination in the face of looming dystopia. As both organizations age, their stories become a little less relevant each day. How many six-year-old girls really think they will grow up to be princesses, or even people on “Real Housewives of Jackson Mississippi,” the modern day equivalent? And how many college kids think they should devote their lives to holding soup cans hooked up to $3.00 worth of Radio Shack components as a way to rid themselves of clusters of invisible dead space cooties?

    Belief in simple answers to complex questions: Disney believes that all the countries of the world will live in harmony if we all go on the “It’s a Small World” ride and listen to that song enough times. Scientology believes that the countries of the world will all get along if they adopt Scientology, like Morocco, Rhodesia and “Bulgravia” failed to do.

    Real estate in Florida: Both companies fueled expansion by buying large chunks of Florida real estate. In the 1960s, Disney’s front corporation “Reedy Creek Ranch” bough up 30,000 acres of swamp not too far from where the cult, several years later, would buy some buildings in Clearwater under the false front name of the “United Churches of Florida.” Both have long histories of steamrolling local opposition to their expansion plans.

    A cartoonish central character in the story: Disney’s resorts all pay constant homage to Mickey Mouse, the Most. Amazing. Cartoon. Character. Ever. His likeness is literally everywhere, except perhaps that it is not embossed on the toilet paper. Scientology’s properties feature the cartoonish visage of L. Ron Hubbard, the Most. Awesome. Human. Ever. whose boundless genius resulted in significant “research” in dozens of fields of human knowledge, including sound recording, photography, science fiction, and the emotional makeup of tomato plants.

    I am sure I have missed a number of parallels. Perhaps others could fill in some of my omissions.

    • Observer

      I believe aggressive prosecution of copyright infringement is another area of similarity.

      As for “It’s a Small World”, I’m ready to off myself two bars into that musical monstrosity. I suppose global harmony *would* be achieved once the mass suicides resulting from repeated renditions were over.

    • Captain Howdy

      Both were secret child haters who loved to torment & torture little kids. Walt had his scaled down torture chamber under the Magic Castle in CA. and LRH had the Apollo among other locales. They probably belonged to the same secret cabal..

      • stillgrace

        Dox on Walt as a child hater?

        • Captain Howdy

          Hollywood Babylon by Kenneth Anger and I was being somewhat facetious. The story about the scaled down torture chamber is an urban legend that has been around forever. Just don’t ask Anette about it.

          • stillgrace

            I don’t know anything about a torture chamber. However, I have an eye-witness friend that tells me there’s a scaled-down basketball court inside the top of the Matterhorn. Also, there’s a non-public area that will serve invited VIP visitors an alcoholic drink.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              My uncle was one of the original engineers for the LA Matterhorn. Calling BS here.

            • grundoon

              There’s an unfinished room in the upper part of the Matterhorn. Somebody put up a hoop there. http://www.snopes.com/disney/parks/matterhorn.asp

    • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

      You’re leaving out the Mormons… they own more land in Florida than Disney. BTW, Joseph Smith’s bullshittery makes Hubbard look like a rank amateur. In any event, the internet is culling their numbers as well.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

        “Joseph Smith’s bullshittery makes Hubbard look like a rank amateur.” Proof: Smith got laid much more often.

        • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

          That’s the truth! And with jail-bait too!

        • http://twitter.com/BradGreenwood2 Bradley Greenwood

          LOL…indeed!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

      I would mention underpaid workers, but Disney does at least comply with minimum-wage standards.

    • Gabbyone

      I wondered how scientology got the right to use the Disney characters in that PR poster that was posted here a couple of weeks ago. Any thoughts on how they got away with that?

      • John P.

        They just stole them and dared the Mouse to sue. It’s highly doubtful that they have some secret deal with Disney that would allow them to use Disney’s material legally — imagine the magnitude of the PR “flap” if Disney were seen as encouraging Scientology! So it’s the same as all their other PR posters. You’d think that a cult famed for litigating copyrights when the OT materials were leaked to the Internet (and for taking down the Tom Cruise video, which got them into a whole shedload of trouble) would respect others’ copyrights, but nooooooo…

    • 0tessa

      Do they use the same law firms?

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Some employees of Disney are Bitter, JohnP, dubbing it Mousekwitz and alleging abusive conditions. Well, of course, their celebrities would say it’s like working at a resort. Sound familiar? Speaking of scientologists who have profited from Disney and vice versa, here’s pure speculation, JohnP (sorry, I know that’s a dirty word for ‘ya). George Lucas, big shareholder in Disney, retiring from major movies, spending time and money in his new Edutopia.com for innovative new approaches to learning.

      Now, it isn’t that great a leap to believe with Miscavige dropping the sci brand approach and using front groups under A.B.L.E, like Narconon and Applied Scholastics for funding his war chest, that he might not have OSA already working on a major project, like Operation Utopia or something, to get all his sci celebrities, non sci celebrities and wealthy sci patrons to go after these big bucks And “respectable” recognition or at least an attempt. I don’t have a list of all the names that Applied Scholastic educational camps/centers go under, so couldn’t search any further, but did find one Applied Scholastic mention on Edutopia. Of course, George is just one person on Disney’s shareholder list. What I’m wondering is if there are other sci front business/investment groups that have holdings as well. All I know is, when there’s a scientology mystery, follow the money, if you can!

      http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t752164/

      http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/10/30/the-mouse-and-the-wookie-lucas-becomes-a-big-disney-shareholder/

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/luisakroll/2011/09/21/george-lucas-on-the-best-fix-for-k-12-education/

      http://www.edutopia.org/user/59436

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Follow the money….no truer words apply.

      • Captain Howdy

        A stormfront link on O/U ? I’ve see it all now ! Not criticizing Hole, i’ve gone there before for the sick pleasure of it. and they do know their WWII history, generally speaking.

        • Sandy

          Stormfront. wow. I forgot about those folks. Haven’t visited their fine site since I ran into a neo-nazi on a local newspaper comment section. How fun …

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          I know what I have done. Forgive me, Capt. Hah
          Oh, being in Florida I’ve heard plenty of stories from people who worked there and it just reaks of the C world (cult).

          • Midwest Mom

            Oh nos! I clicked on it not knowing what kind of a site it was on my husband’s computer! Holey moley – it’s a “White Power” site. Egad! These people are scary!

            • Captain Howdy

              Oh noes, now HS is going to show up with 20 questions ! Relax it’s just a WN site and there’s worse than them out “there”. SF has actually tried to tone down their “act” the last few years.. believe it or not.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

            There are other sources for the use of “Mauschwitz” or “Mousewitz” to describe the experience of Disney employees.

      • http://twitter.com/media_lush media_lush

        When Disney management heard employees referring it as “Mauschwitz” they actually sent a memo banning the term and threatened firing anyone heard saying it. As soon as ths memo went out all the disgruntled employees started saying they worked for “Duckhau” instead.

        This is a true story as Stephen Fry mentioned it on QI which probably has the best TV researchers in the world.

    • Deckard__Cain

      As an actual card-carrying member of the Disney cult (I have an annual pass to Disneyland), I’ll have to disagree with you on most of your points, JP.

      “Stuck in the 1950s – Disney and its philosophies have evolved over the years, in particular since Eisner was booted (thank God for that). Walt Disney’s world view was actually entrenched in the Depression when he put together his first animation company and got royally screwed by not owning the rights to his first creation, Oswald the Rabbit. After the awful financial losses associated with the Oswald fiasco, he structured his next intellectual property, Mickey Mouse in ways that many Disney animators complain about to this day (I know one). Disney was always designed to keep a very tight lid on their creations, but that’s not really your point.

      Yes, there were many cartoons of the 1950s involving Disney creations that reflected larger society thoughts and beliefs, but just about every movie coming out during this decade also followed suit. The ‘B’ movies with gigantic ants, spiders, and blobs created by the fearsome nuclear science was abound everywhere. Doris Day movies, the Donna Reed Show, and all other forms of entertainment did the same thing as Disney. The difference is that the Disney movies were hugely popular for kids and re-released in theaters with multiple generations. So the “princess” mentality stuck.

      Although the general formula of boy meets princess, loses princess, gets princess still prevail, Disney has altered many of the moving parts to be inclusive of gender, race, and include adult themes. They have changed the basic premise as well – the Toy Story franchise is a perfect example.

      “Belief in simple answers…” – Disney created a safe place for kids and families where one can imagine a world in harmony. He wanted to entertain and give a place that was both a respite for parents and a place where kids can dream. In general, Disney (and I’m just speaking about the parent company, the movies and parks) exists to entertain kids, which usually means boiling down dramatic themes to a simple foundation. We’re not talking about Shakespeare here, it’s a freakin cuddly Mouse and his speech impeded friends (one doesn’t even talk).

      Real estate in Florida The reason why Disney used a front corporation to buy up property in Florida was to keep it secret and keep real estate speculators from spiking prices in the surrounding area and distressing the locals. What happened in Anaheim was terrible (the entire city wound up a hugely depressed and slum area by the 70s due for several reasons, mainly an out of control City Council that didn’t properly plan and made terrible decisions). Disney did not want to repeat his mistake and worked very hard to keep the Kissimee and Orlando areas stable and growing in the right direction. I don’t see anything wrong with proper planning, and I’m sure some will disagree but the Disney Parks in Florida provide a far superior experience than Anaheim.

      “A cartoonish central character…” – I’m not sure why having a strong brand that is identifiable, immediately recognized all over the world and represents happiness to millions of kids is such a bad thing. I’m not sure that I would equate the branding of Mickey Mouse with the branding of LRH because Mickey Mouse is not an infallible ‘Source’. He’s a mouse that is friendly and often makes mistakes. Yes, many kids light up when they see Mickey Mouse, but it is not the same thing because kids’ don’t often take their life lessons from Mickey Mouse.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        My uncle sold his land shares of that FL swamp land not knowing it was Disney, so I know that part was true.

        • Deckard__Cain

          Yes, it was done under a shell company but there were valid reasons for keeping it secret. Those reasons may have been mainly in the interest of Disney, but just be glad that the local area didn’t turn out like Anaheim. It was a crime-riddled and scary area for decades.

      • Rick Mycroft

        You might be a Disney Abductee. The warning signs are if you’ve ever suddenly noticed that hours have passed at Disneyland with no idea of where the time went. If so, therapists might be able to help you remember what *really* happened.

      • John P.

        DC, I was being very much tongue in cheek. There are many things I don’t like about Disney, but there are many things I respect quite highly.

        They are, to their credit, maniacally focused on the quality of the customer experience in the parks, and there is plenty more to appreciate about their ability to keep innovating, etc. To their great credit, they have managed to avoid screwing up the Pixar charm, which I think is actually a major example of corporate restraint. And given the last three Star Wars movies, they may actually do a better job in stewardship of the Lucasfilm empire than Lucas himself.

        Of course, the reason that Disney hid their land purchases was that prices would instantly soar the moment anyone found out who was buying all that scrub pine forest out on the edge of Orlando. While some may complain about the Mouse there, it’s a helluvan economic engine that powers the whole region, and I can’t imagine too many people who were there back in the 1960s who would say that Orlando is better off without them. That’s normal business — and I’m sure the day after the land purchases were made public, the price of land adjacent to Disneyworld went up by 10x.

        By contrast, the cult snuck into town because they knew that they would be welcomed about as much as a toxic wate reprocessing plant; they have brought negative economic expansion to Clearwater, taking property off the tax rolls and pumping minimal cash into the economy because people make so little money.

        So in my comment, I was drawing some intentionally oblique and bogus comparisons between the cult and the Mouse to get some laughs. I won’t, however, forgive them for the annoying music and lyrics to the “It’s a Small World” song any time soon.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert
        • BuryTheNuts2

          I won’t, however, forgive them for the annoying music and lyrics to the “It’s a Small World” song any time soon.

          ^^^ Thank you. As this would completely destroy all credibility.

          And you, are above reproach…
          Or,…I need to smoke a bowl.
          Whateve’s

          • Midwest Mom

            Smoke a bowl?

            • BuryTheNuts2

              of soup?

          • http://lippard.blogspot.com/ Jim Lippard

            Barry Friedman, a columnist for Phoenix New Times back in the 80s, once had a column in which he claimed that “It’s a Small World” was authored by Adolf Hitler.

        • Deckard__Cain

          Oh, OK…makes sense now. I thought your post was very non-JP like and strangely generalized but it turns out that your sarcasm was lost on me. I’ve spent a lot of time with the Mouse and I usually go pray to the Mouse a few times a year (and I have a nice portfolio supported by the Mouse) so your humor went straight over my head as I am blinded by my love of the Mouse.

          Like Scientology, I’ve read every book on Disney (both official and unofficial), Disneyland, and Disney World. “Mouse Tales” is one of my favorite series on the subject and it is a very funny book about the early days of Disneyland.

          But I should have known better when reading your post. Sheesh.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

            One major difference is that the Mouse does not seem to suffer any complexes about his diminutive size.

        • ze moo

          All together now, ‘It’s a small world after all, It’s a small world after all’………

        • sugarplumfairy

          hey, John P.. Something you said just really struck a chord with me.. “…taking property off the tax rolls and pumping minimal cash into the economy because people make so little money…”

          Any estimate of how many tax dollars the US of A should be getting annually from the pseudo-church of $cientology? It has to be an impressive figure..

    • VickiStubing

      Ah, but Disney now embraces the homosexual dollar while Co$, um, ah, er, well, ya see….

    • grundoon

      Both want to clean your pockets.

  • ze moo
    • DeElizabethan

      T’was great. Shame no more comments taken

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chuck-Beatty/1631176570 Chuck Beatty

    Brilliant TV summary of Hubbard.

    Doesn’t get any better than that!

    Loved the photos which I’d never seen, of LRH Junior and Jamie, and then the one with LRH, LRH Junior and LRH’s dad on the couch!

    Pricelss just for the photos!

    Your coverage is priceless Tony, can’t thank you enough for taking an interest!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      That was LRH’s dad? I wondered who it was.

      The newer revelations (in Lawrence Wright’s book) of what life was like in that family, and especially his spouses’, is very revealing and so very sickening. Not sure how far you got in the book by now. Makes me wonder if Diane will ever get out, and then write a book. No one escaped his abuse. All of Ron’s children exhibited symptoms of the kind of after disorders children of sociopaths suffer, and left untreated or addressed, might affect their own children later on. I can certainly understand why his family feared for Jamie when he said he was going to announce his heritage. After reading Lawrence Wright’s book, both Hubbard and Miscavige appear to be relentlessly drooling, foaming, sizzling, Jack Nicholson nightmarish evil monsters. A new term is going to have to be coined that encapsulates their madness and their reign of terror, like Machiavellian, maybe: “Hubbardian”.

      Brave or brash, inherited or learned, Jamie has wrestled his demons instead of audited them and used the energy for good help instead of evil harm. And that is the difference between The Old Man Hubbard and Jamie the Artist. I’d say Jamie is a winner.

      • Midwest Mom

        Have you ever seen Arthur’s artwork? It looks like artistic nightmares. (No offense intended, Arthur).

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Yes I have, and yes it is, to me too and bloody, as I recall. There are details about family life, and individual family members and spouses I’ve never seen anywhere in the book, and it’s all the makings of nightmare.

  • Mrs Libnish

    I first saw that video on Alanzo’s blog. I watched it 3 times and then watched a bunch of videos from the conference in Ireland. Really great stuff!

  • Captain Howdy

    Hey “Oliver Twist” is on starring L Ron as “Fagin, David Miscavige as “Bill Sikes” and Capt. Peanuts as “Bullseye” and Shelly Miscavige as poor “Nancy”.

    Don’t mind me I’m jonesin’

    • BuryTheNuts2

      You do know you have a group of us who love the hell out of you!
      Handing you a rawhide bone to chew on.

      • Captain Howdy
        • Captain Howdy

          Aaahhhh Mr Jones finally caught up with Puff. Now he can do the laundry, go grocery shopping, eat, etc etc. I recommend that Bob and Oppenheimer get a room where i live and hang around with me and my associate’s for at least a year to the get the “real” picture.

          If they’re too chicken shit they can just watch this,It’s pretty average.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt2TxlXYB7k

        • BuryTheNuts2

          What an awesome video.
          Poor Johnny T…. :(

  • Peter

    I wonder just how many of the posters here actually have had any experience with Scientology at all? Reading the (often) scatalogical references and downers, one would suppose that there was nothing of any value to be had at all, even though it has been around for well over 50 years. That viewpoint seems both irrational and illogical. And all those auditors never had any success with the people they were auditing? Never helped anyone? Gimme a break! There is a great deal to be said for having someone across the table from you, giving you his/her full attention while you work out some problem you’re having. The E-Meter is no magical thing, btw, simply indicates upsetting thoughts, makes no evaluation of those thoughts, but makes it easier for the auditor to guide you back to the specific thought. [Our minds race through thousands of them each minute.] Then you get to choose if you wish to deal with whatever is disturbing you…or continue to avoid it. From personal experience, I can tell you it’s a helluva lot faster than any other therapy I ever tried! And effective, too, if you wish to really dig in and get to the bottom of it. None of that is *ever* mentioned here. I continued on until I was no longer getting any benefits, then left, quietly. Yes, I also experienced injustice, nuttiness, uncaring attitudes, bullies, etc during my years….kind of what I manage to experience in life in general. LOL What the Sea Org people experience, however, is much more intense and rigid and, as we’ve seen, can easily get out of hand, especially when there is a rigid structure which gives certain individuals unlimited control over others. (Reminds me a bit of my Army and Navy experiences!)

    And, for the record, I would highly recommend a good communications course, if you can find one. Too often it was used as a quick come on to the next course. It worked because it was effective in helping people really talk to each other, understanding the actual workings of a good communication cycle, rarely seen nowadays and nowhere taught in the educational systems anywhere.

    I can make no excuse for the insanities which take place daily within the organization, especially in the upper reaches and totally in Miscavige’s case. Talk about the corrupting evidence of his unlimited power and you’re describing the Poster Boy of Evil Wackiness.

    Recall, if you will, though, that Paul Haggis, a sensitive, intelligent and artistic human being who stated clearly that scio had helped him That would go, too, for many thousands of others. So unless you’ve actually tried it (there are lots of non-org/mission sources available), perhaps it’s a tad arrogant to condemn it all out of hand.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

      “I wonder just how many of the posters here actually have had any experience with Scientology at all?” Are you allowed to read any of this blog? About half the posters here are veterans often with decades of experience in the CoS. You ought to know how damaging it is to your credibility when your very first sentence reveals your ignorance.
      Mind you, it is interesting to have a true-believer back on Tony’s blog; we haven’t had one for a long time, as apparently it came to be thought too dangerous to send even a Louanne type over here.

      • Peter

        True believer? Wow! I’ve not heard that derogatory term for awhile. You mean that my personal experiences weren’t real? I imagined it all? I’m hardly any supporter of scio, have not sent anyone there for at least 30 years, so I don’t think I could qualify under the banner you’ve stated. But, Robert, it’s a shabby way to deal with my words, dispatching them with a sceptical aside. If the list is all about EVERYONE HATES EVERYTHING ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY WHILE NEVER EXPERIENCING ANYTHING OF IT, then I’m surely in the wrong place. LOL

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

          You’re surely in the wrong place if you think you can tell people who have decades of experience with Scientology that none of it ever happened.

          • Peter

            Interesting comment. Please quote exactly where I said it never happened, Robert.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

              What are you doing is called JAQing off: no, you don’t “say” nobody here put decades into Scientology, you are “just asking the question”, over and over and over again. Yes, the majority of the posters here have devoted huge chunks of their lives to Scientology, and it is the height of rudeness for a total newbie (if indeed you have never been here before) to be questioning their level of experience, portraying yourself as a superior being here to educate us all.

            • Peter

              No point in getting into a word game or pssng match with you, Robert. You’ve taken offense. So be it.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

              I’m not one of those you pissed on.

            • http://surisburnbook.tumblr.com/ nobs

              He’s not the only one who has taken offense. My hackles are definitely up.

              I was trying to figure out what your point was in your first post. It’s pretty hidden but I’d say it’s all about shilling for scn tech. “Go try it,” you say. “You can’t talk trash about the church of scn until or unless you’ve tried it.” “Bullshit,” I say.

        • http://surisburnbook.tumblr.com/ nobs

          Hey, Robert didn’t say your experiences weren’t real. Where’d you get that? And you’re kind of lying about not being a supporter of scn. The last line of your first post encourages the good folks here to go try it out. That seems like support to me.

    • sizzle8

      A very true post – and thank you for writing it.

      In the past, Scientology provided so many different types of experience within it.
      A Sea Org’er had a completely different life than a Class 5 org staff. A mission staffer also had a completely different experience, not to mention the Public person’s.

      The toxic level used to be at SO and Int level, but now, because of the RTC and IAS, it has permeated all the way down.
      Many people had horrendous experiences, but most got something out of it, made good friends and then moved on. Sooner or later the inconsistencies and insanities won.

      I spent almost 20 years at all levels and that’s what I saw.

      • Peter

        Thanks. My experiences were mixed, but generally good. One truly great thing I learned was how to jump in and dig deeply immediately. Got a lot of wins that way. And had several things I don’t write about simply because there are no words. Most of them are still with me and I wouldn’t trade 20X the crap I also got for what those experiences did for me. That’s why I enquired as to whether most of the posters here had actually had *any* time with the subject they’re criticizing. LOL It’s all to easy to take a few sentences Hubbard wrote, out of context, then deride the entire subject. Past lives? THAT concept has only been around for 4000+ years. ROFL

        • Captain Howdy

          I have relatives that have been in CoS 30 + years but like yourself they are ‘magical thinkers” and being that I am a materialist there is no possible avenue for communication.

          Yeah, the concept of past lives has been around at least 4,000 years, so has vampires, shape shifters, demons etc. Have a nice delusion.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Capt…..know your audience!
            Oh yeah, you already do.

          • The Dark Avenger

            And if reincarnation was a reality, most of us probably had dull and/or miserable past lives, because that has been the lot of the majority of humanity for at least a few more thousand years before such beliefs sprang up in human history.

          • Peter

            Well, Cap’n, if you’ve not that kind of experience, one would probably automatically call it a “delusion”. If you *have* had that experience…and were able to back it up with some research on the location…you’d KNOW. To each his own, I guess.

        • Midwest Mom

          Peter, as a Catholic, my faith is maligned and criticized by many, even on this site. I don’t expect everyone to go to Mass or sign up for Blble Study groups or Catholic instruction classes in order to communicate better or to learn about my faith. If someone doesn’t like me or my opinions on this site because of my religion, it’s not something I can change by criticizing them. (I’m also Republican, so I see criticism from that angle as well – I’m just a barrel of fun!). I think that this site allows people of different faiths, beliefs and philosophies to communicate freely, honestly and openly and it creates an opportunity to judge each other by the example we set forth in our communication here, as well as our support of each other.

          One of my favorite posters here is a pinko commie punker who does not share my faith or political affiliation, but we respect each other a great deal. I find that the former Scientologists here tend to appreciate the different viewpoints and perspectives offered by the posters here, since they were closed off from the free exchange of differing opinion while involved in Scientology. There is a lot of good natured teasing and joking here, as well, and it speaks well for this community that we can share some light hearted moments when the topics discussed here can be very upsetting and tragic.

          In other countries, people are imprisoned, tortured and murdered because of their faith. Just look at the horrific treatment of those targeted for their Muslim, Jewish, Christian, (whether they are Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, or Orthodox) religious beliefs.

          Scientologists, on the other hand, are targeted with mental and physical abuse, imprisonment and even death by their own church.

          If we don’t speak out and bring awareness to stop it, who will?

          • Sherbet

            Mom, I think Peter is saying, YES, I know about the abuses, but I also know about the wins auditing brings. As always, you are the voice of reason, and I try to be, too. I don’t see Peter defending cos, but I do see him defending the tech, and also offering the theory that nobody would understand unless they personally experienced the tech. Most of us tend to disagree.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              I think you are being charitable. He said most posters here do not understand the subject.
              Tunnel vision.
              Look around. We understand in a myriad of ways.
              I agree with SOME points…. But look at the whole of what he said.

            • Sherbet

              I didn’t say I agree with him, Bury, nor do I accept the argument that one would have to be a scn to understand it. I just like to keep the conversation open unless somebody turns out to be a complete dickwad troll, in which case he/she isn’t worth the keystrokes it takes to argue with him/her.

            • BuryTheNuts2

              I totally agree Sherb…but I have a bit of “Bias” as to this particular posters credentials…
              As in B$.

            • Sherbet

              ‘k.

            • Midwest Mom

              In reference to communication, the Co$ shows its grasp of its communication through its press releases and public statements. Tom Cruise was a marvelous example at his communication skills in his Today Show appearance and Tommy Davis in his past television appearances.

              Dale Carnegie is substantially more effective and significantly less costly.

            • Sherbet

              No argument from me, Mom.

            • Midwest Mom

              Oops! I thought I was relying to Peter. It was supposed to be another response to his post. Sorry! :)

        • DeElizabethan

          Peter, I spent 13 years in as a public. Of course I had some wins. The communication course was fun in the ’70′s and never saw or heard anything like it and it did help me. However, that is the hook that gets you on the chain. Maybe I could’ve gained such wins from some other studies or classes, who knows?

          I have found since, much more spiritual advancement and betterment courses outside of scientology.

          What I do know is, once you sign up, your chance at controlling your own future changes slowly but drastically. Until I guess you’ve seen enough of the lies and dangers.

          “(there are lots of non-org/mission sources available)” I say, None that are not connected in some covert way to Hubbard. I do thank you for telling your story.

    • TonyOrtega

      Peter, many of our regular readers are former members of Scientology. We even have readers who worked directly with L. Ron Hubbard. In our stories and in the comments, the point is often made that church members maintain they get benefits out of auditing. It appears that you’re just dropping in for the first time, but we encourage you to spend some time and look around at our previous work — Tony Ortega

      • Peter

        Thanks for your response, Tony. I’ve been reading you for many months and am well acquainted with the fact that many have had experience. My sense, too, is that many posters have NOT had any experience yet still pound on the subject. That was what I was writing about. I stand by my post, perhaps not written well enough to convey my meaning. And, repeating, I hold no support for all the crap…and crappers…which has been and continues to be done.

        • Midwest Mom

          Peter, I’ve heard regulars at this site, Ziontologist and Bob, say the same things you’ve said in your posts today. Almost word for word. Have you noticed their posts?

          • BuryTheNuts2

            Mom, you are 99% PR……….
            Bwahahaha

          • Captain Howdy

            That’s a …

        • tetloj

          Hi Peter.Let’s leave the world of criticism to only those who have had first hand experience and then see how much success you have with reform.

      • Sherbet

        Put down the pitchforks, villagers. Tony speaks sense. All are welcome, right?

      • http://surisburnbook.tumblr.com/ nobs

        This was very nice of you, Tony. You’re a classy guy.

    • BuryTheNuts2

      If you wonder who here has anything to do with Scientology…then I cannot help but wonder where you are coming from. If you have been reading the whole of this blog and not cherry picking things to substantiate your argument, than you are either obtuse or in denial.
      There has been plenty of diverse discussion on the validity of auditing and not everyone here is in lockstep despite your assertion.
      Communications course? Sure, but I would suggest Carnegie first.
      Good luck, but you might want to look outside the box you just put yourself into….Peter.

      • Peter

        I’m afraid that you, too, misread what I’ve said. Lockstep? Denial about what? Whether I was “cherry picking” or not, I asked a valid question in response to many more posts which appear to come from people who never had ANY kind of experience, good or bad. The knives far outnumber any decent experiences and I felt that balancing the carnage a bit was called for. Sorry I disturbed you.

        • Deckard__Cain

          Who is making a scatological reference in his argument now, eh?

          • whingeybingey

            I am just impressed by the use of the word scatological.

          • Peter

            Methinks you have an m/u. (Ooops!) LOL

        • BuryTheNuts2

          I disagree Peter. You said I wonder how many of the posters have had any experience with Scientology at all.

          You did not and do not disturb me.
          Answers:
          Lockstep about auditing or the validity of anything about the subject.
          Denial, if you say the view points here are irrational or illogical.
          And you WERE cherry picking…..that is also quite a human way to validate our argument ….or opinion.
          We could get into a huge philisophical discussion but that is dense and makes no
          positive progress.
          The knives? No.
          Discourse. Save the metaphorical knives for later. You are imagining an enemy that is only your own.

    • http://www.facebook.com/dwight.geiger.3 Dwight Geiger

      Haggis also said that it was just like picking up any self help book,I emphasize the word ANY which translates to anyone that is searching for meaning in their life can buy a book for 10 bucks or get auditing for 1000′sands of bucks.Haggis also said that scientology is definitlely a cult.He also said he never believed in it which I do have to admit,I didn’t understand that remark but I am sure some pofessional sociologist could explain it.Point is is that it that really doesn’t matter what anyone believe’s,this cult needs to be shut down for all of the criminal abuses it has perpetrated in it’s history period.Slave labor,murder,conning people out of every dime they have.Forced abortions,forced disconnection from family members ect.should not give any organization the right to tax excempt status.I would rather buy a self help book and save my money but tha’ts just me.

      • Peter

        You’ll get no argument from me on that, Dwight, nor have I hinted otherwise.

    • Mr. Fabulous

      “…simply indicates upsetting thoughts”

      No, it doesn’t, and there less than zero evidence that it does any such thing.

      There is nothing special about the early levels of Scientology, including the so-called communication course, that cannot be gleaned from the abundance of half-decent self-help books which have been available before, and since Scientology was even a twinkle in a certain scammer’s eye.

    • 0tessa

      I perfectly understand that you had positive experiences with auditing. I know of more people that did. I believe you and them.
      For some people that is still difficult to grasp. They see the abuse going on and protest against it. Some have very bad experiences with auditing (the enforced confessions etc.). Some are so disappointed, that nothing of scientology actually is right. We have all our own experiences. Everyone is free here to express his feelings and opinions.
      Please try to give others room to express themselves. Taking a moral stand here is not helping. We just don’t know each other’s background, but we have all one thing in common: to stop the abuse in Scientology Inc.

    • http://surisburnbook.tumblr.com/ nobs

      “condemn it all out of hand”??!! What’s being condemned are the lies, abuses, fraud, injustices, disconnections, imprisonments, enslaving of innocents, hiring of private investigators. Not many folks here give a rats ass about the ‘tech’ — whether it works, whether it doesn’t blah blah blah. What these good folks DO CARE ABOUT is decency, honesty, compassion, truth, freedom and shit like joking, laughing, fooling around. I seriously doubt if anyone here wants to “actually try it”. Why would they? It does NOT matter that you had “wins” or Paul Haggis had “wins”. That’s not, and NEVER HAS BEEN, the issue. I had a few “wins” myself. Big fucking deal. 1. Scientology does not deliver what’s promised. Ever. 2. The discussion is not about the ‘tech’ — it’s about the behavior, the acts, the deeds, the bullshit being spewed by the “church.”

    • stillgrace

      a tad arrogant? I think it’s a tad stupid to be videotaped by a corrupt cult while telling one’s sins and innermost thoughts. Communication course? No, that won’t be necessary. I already know how to shout, I’ve won every staring contest I’ve ever been in, and my ashtrays and I enjoy a warm relationship and they already do whatever I tell them.

    • Chocolate Velvet

      The problem with that idea is, there is absolutely nothing unique about scientology as an aspect of human experience. Therefore, it is not necessary to experience scientology, per se, in order to understand scientology. I realize that is a bold assertion, but I only make it after much consideration and study of both philosophy, and the phenomenon of abusive cults. Scientology as a philosophy is duplicated completely and developed much more fully and subtly in many other places in the whole of human history and thought. Scientology as a cult-guru long-con is EXACTLY like every other guru long-con. Read about other cults, you will be absolutely floored by the similarities to Hubbard, Miscavige, and the cult they have led.

      In fact, being a good scientologist as proscribed by Hubbard would preclude the study of any philosophy or history outside of Hubbard’s interpretation. (You can try to spin it otherwise by cherry-picking certain parts of what he said and wrote — but that ain’t KSW.). Thus, you might say that faithfully practicing scientology is the best and most expedient way to remain ignorant of the whole truth about it.

      Case in point, are you still in? I surmise from your comments that you are not, and I celebrate your escape, but QED, my dear…

      • Poison Ivy

        “Scientology as a cult-guru long-con is EXACTLY like every other guru long-con. Read about other cults, you will be absolutely floored by the similarities to Hubbard, Miscavige, and the cult they have led.”

        Chocolate, you hit the cherry on the sundae. Those who have been inside and escaped and view CO$ from a cool distance see this similarity, as do those of us who have watched various cults including Scientology for years.

        And no one here has EVER said Scientology didn’t benefit people. Like Peter said, even Haggis admitted that. It’s the “cheese in the mousetrap.” But see, I and many others have experienced those same types of benefits in other forms from other sources…and I didn’t have to sell my soul or empty my bank account to do it.

        I love the thalidomide analogy.

        • whingeybingey

          I can honestly say it did not benefit me. It has only made my anxiety issues worse. It was a terrible experience that further diminished my feelings of self-worth. If there was a moment that felt good, nothing produced a lasting change.

    • nevarmore

      You don’t have to be a Proctologist to recognize an asshole when you see one.

      • nevarmore

        LRH and DM being the body part in question Peter… not you , depending on how far you wish to take defending these two psychotics.

    • Observer

      With all due respect, it’s also perhaps a tad arrogant to dismiss criticism from people who have spent years watching and studying Scientology, and listening to the stories–verifiable stories–of those who *have* experienced it, or who have personally watched their loved ones destroyed by it.

      If you–God forbid–were to have a heart attack, will you refuse treatment by any cardiologist who has never had one, because someone who hasn’t experienced one doesn’t know enough to treat you?

      I would never presume to tell you that Scientology did not benefit you in some way. However, what I have seen and learned and studied in the 25 years I have been watching it bring to mind another miracle: thalidomide.

      It started out as a very effective sleep medication, and later found to have the unexpected side benefit of relieving morning sickness in pregnant women. It is also not toxic, meaning that it was essentially impossible to overdose on it. There was no testing done; it was a different time and standards were much more lax. However, when the babies were born thalidomide turned from miracle drug into horror story–many babies were born with terrible deformities, including malformed or missing limbs. (I knew a thalidomide baby. She had no forearms and no legs below the knee. She was a very strong person who adapted in an amazing way.)

      Pics of thalidomide kids: http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=thalidomide+deformities&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group

      For the women who benefited from its sleep-inducing and nausea-reducing effects, and whose babies were born healthy, it was all win. However, the human cost was far too high and it was yanked from the market. Would you have insisted on thalidomide for your (theoretical) pregnant wife, because it had been shown to work for morning sickness and the doctor hadn’t himself been deformed by it?

      It’s the same conclusion I have reached after 25 years of observation and study of Scientology: some people benefit, but the human cost is far too high. I am thankful that you are one who did not pay that price, but many others have.

      • DeElizabethan

        That was a superb analogy.

        • Poison Ivy

          Ditto.

    • John P.

      Peter, other commenters have clearly identified the “experience fallacy” that Scientologists use to insulate themselves from unpleasant questions. The analogy of refusing to see a cardiologist who hasn’t experienced a heart attack is extremely relevant.

      Here are relevant questions about auditing that lead me to believe that auditing is likely to be less effective than other forms of self help. That’s not to say that auditing never works under any circumstances, since that’s as unlikely as the insane notion that “Scientology works 100% of the time when applied standardly.”

      Here are questions that, when answered, will allow anyone to believe that auditing is quackery, and is almost certain to be less effective in a controlled setting than other forms of therapy:

      1. Pseudo-science does not evolve; real science does. Though astrologers use computers now, the explanation of why certain stars in the sky mean certain things has not changed in centuries. There is no way to change the meanings because there’s no process to integrate better data on what causes what. Similarly, auditing has not evolved in a half century to make it more effective. That’s because …

      2. There are no studies to determine the overall effectiveness of auditing, especially versus other mental health therapies. In fact, the cult has strenuously avoided any independent attempts to study auditing and its potential benefits.

      3. There is no evidence that any particular reading on the e-meter actually corresponds to any particular state of mind, thought pattern, etc. In other words, where is the evidence that a “rock slam” actually means that the person has a “hidden intention”? Not only are there no controlled studies to establish the meaning of a given meter formation, but there are no notes from Hubbard on individual cases where this was found to be the case — in other words, he didn’t even have what a pharma experimenter would call a “pre-clinical result” (something interesting that should be studied further).

      4. There is no attempt to isolate random behavior that could cause false readings, such as sweaty palms affecting resistance of the “cans,” changes in grip on the cans, or the ability of the pre-clear to “read” the auditor and engage in unconscious biofeedback based on the auditor’s expression.

      5. Scientologists cannot explain why great minds in the field, including Jung, were experimenting with electronically-assisted therapy decades before Hubbard came along, and abandoned their work. And they cannot explain why, 50 years after Hubbard started pushing the use of the e-meter, others have not attempted to engage in further research. After all, Jung’s century-old device is infinitely more primitive than the lie detectors in use in police departments and intelligence agencies today. You’d think an updated piece of hardware might be worth studying.

      6. Why is e-meter technology stagnant (sure, the latest e-meter has a digital display of the time in the session, but why is the circuit identical in layout to what Hubbard stole from Volney Mathison in the 1950s?

      7. Relatedly, why aren’t medical device makers frothing at the bit to develop e-meter technology? By the time all the FDA certifications were completed, an e-meter from a legitimate medical device manufacturer would probably cost $20,000. If such things actually worked, the device makers could sell at least one to each of the 150,000 psychiatrists and psychologists in the country — at least a $3 billion market; further technological development would obsolete meters every 3-4 years and docs would have to buy new units to keep up with the “standard of care.” That’s a very nice, and very easy piece of business. Yet nobody is chasing it. Why not, if the “tech” worked at a level that would earn regulatory approval? A $3 billion revenue stream is enough to get device makers to overcome any conspiracy of “the psychs” to repress the secret wisdom of L. Ron Hubbard.

      These are questions that legitimately bear on whether auditing works well enough to be considered valid. And they are only a few of the questions that, when answered, show that auditing is ineffective. The fact that no evidence of effectiveness or validity exists, and that the cult resists all attempts to discover such evidence, is conclusive by itself. And these questions do not need to be asked by a Scientologist in order to be a valid and compelling argument against auditing.

      As I have said many times, my extreme skepticism about the scientific validity of auditing and about the relative effectiveness of auditing versus other techniques is far different from asserting that no wins are ever possible. A true story: a decade ago, a friend swore that she got impressive results from Reiki therapy, and kept hounding me to try it. I finally agreed to give it a shot, and I did get some “wins” of a type that I had never gotten through any other self-help means. After about 10 sessions, the wins became fewer and farther between, then stopped altogether. Those “wins” were real, even though the “science” of Reiki was anything but. It doesn’t matter whether what actually happened was autosuggestion, a good Reiki practitioner, or anything else. What’s important was that I held these “wins” in an appropriate context — it worked for a while, then stopped working, and the fact that I got “wins” proved nothing about whether Reiki was scientifically valid or not, or whether Reiki is broadly effective in a broad population.

      The difference between my Reiki experience and Scientology is that after a handful of sessions with Reiki, when the “wins” stopped, I moved on. I didn’t spend decades of my life and a considerable portion of my fortune chasing more “wins” that failed to materialize. It’s fascinating that so many Scientologists who have the same experience curve — some interesting “wins” early on, quickly diminishing to none, are so fierce about defending “the tech.”

      • tetloj

        Wow – hat’s off to all of you above who can offer calm rebuttals. I just get pissed off and want to retaliate. I like the calm approach better!

      • DeElizabethan

        I like your argument. While true they get wins, true also they originally wanted to help themselves and others with this tech. With the mind machine and brain washing toward Mankind, that they are the only ones who can help, make them lose sight of what’s real in the world and toward their fellow man, let alone family. The control is ferocious and one losses himself in that 3rd (group) and 4th (Mankind) dynamic. So yes, they still have controlled thinking by the controller and protect the tech, for it makes them right!

        • Poison Ivy

          DeElizabethan, well said. But the true irony of Scientology is, though it preaches “helping Mankind,” it is probably the most narcissistic belief system short of Satanism that I have ever studied. As Derek Bloch (I think it was our dear Derek) has said, Scientologists are convinced that spending countless hours and thousands of dollars ridding themselves of invisible thetans will somehow save the world. Scientology forces the person deeper and deeper into self-obsession, (and the need to please a very insular group), not outward obsession or reaching out to one’s fellow. Remember, Hubbard said that altruism was essentially weakness. Hubbard’s ‘religion’ reflects his own severe malignant narcissism. I just finished re-reading the wonderful ’70′s satire, “The Serial” (HIGHLY recommended and wicked entertaining; available on e-book from Apostrophe Books.) It reflects the annoyingly (and destructively) self-oriented culture of personal growth in which Scientology had its heyday. The answer to an aching, empty ego is a lot simpler than paying hundreds of thousands to undergo daily exorcism – it’s basically, get out of your own head and help someone in need. The greatest prophets and religious leaders throughout history all knew this. Scientology encourages people to live in their own heads (which, given enough time, Hubbardisms and auditing, becomes “Scientology’s head”). You can’t help mankind when you’re trapped in the prison of your own mind.

          • DeElizabethan

            Excellent! Reading Wright’s book makes it even clearer how all he wants to do is control a town, city, nation or planet. He really was insane and wants others the same.

      • Poison Ivy

        I love you John P.

      • grundoon

        “Why don’t they use ‘cans’ strapped to the hands for consistent contact that can’t be faked?”

        HCO BULLETIN OF 30 MARCH 1960
        All Auditors in South Africa; CenOCon
        INTERROGATION
        (How to read an E-Meter on a silent subject)

        When the subject placed on a meter will not talk but can be made to hold the cans (or can be held while the cans are strapped to the soles or placed under the armpit, I am sorry if that sounds brutal, it isn’t), it is still possible to obtain full information from the subject.

        Asking questions, one expects no reply, asks for no pictures. The auditor just watches the needle for dips when questions are asked.

        Given a dozen people from any riot or strike, you can find the instigator of that group or more than one. Finding that one, you can get his boss. Twenty or thirty paid agents provocateurs can keep a whole country in revolt. Clean them up and the riots collapse.

        Thousands are trained every year in Moscow in the ungentle art of making slave states. Don’t be surprised if you wind up with a white.

        Revolts kill an awful lot of natives. Only when security has been established can a reform be applied.

        In the riots in London, anybody arrested has his fine paid for him by some mysterious group. Demonstrators are recruited. So this isn’t limited to South Africa.

        Crack the agents provocateurs’ identities and you’ve cracked the new slavery of Earth—the worker’s production demanded by the state for nothing.

        http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/interrog.htm

        • John P.

          Disgusting. But it sure sounds like fantasy. Polygraphs don’t work on unwilling subjects (to the limited extent that they work anyway).

          Sounds like he was just fantasizing about how his “tech” would be beneficial to brutal oppressive governments, thus boosting Scientology into the “power behind the throne” that he envisioned in his megalomania.

          I wonder just how much “research” he did taping the “cans” to the feet of unwilling subjects, and then interrogating them and then verifying the findings from the e-meter session against physical evidence to verify that the auditor got “the truth” from a silent, uncooperative subject.

          Very nice piece of research tracking down this quote, by the way!

          • grundoon

            L. Ron Hubbard went from country to country trying to peddle his Orwellian sec checking / interrogation / investigation “tech” to one repressive security apparatus after another, starting with the FBI and making the rounds of Rhodesia, South Africa, Greece, Morocco, etc. Sadly for him, although there may be a sucker born every minute, in secret police forces their tenure is short. In every instance he was pegged as either a crackpot, shady gentleman of fortune or CIA provocateur. His fantasy was to command a safe zone – the first Scientology country – where “the orgs say what is legal or not.”

    • sugarplumfairy

      “…one would suppose that there is nothing of any value to be had at all, even though it has been around for well over 50 years…”

      Heroin has been around for over 139 years.. That doesn’t make it valuable and I’m not going to try it no matter how many testimonials I hear..

      Btw, I searched ‘history of heroin’ to check my facts.. The very first thing to come up on google was narconondotorg.. but they were unable to answer my question.. Which reminds me.. Narconon also has no value..

    • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

      The length of time something has existed is no proof of its value or lack thereof.

    • Orange

      Do those courses have any scientific backing? Any legitimate, controlled experimentation behind them? Any convincing statistics? Any peer review? Any acceptance by the scientific community? If not, how am I supposed to know that they’re not just feelgood, pseudoscientific pieces of sham meant to suck my bank account dry? Explain to me

    • whingeybingey

      Yes, I do have experience with Scientology. What a freaking waste of five of what could have been the best years of my life. I curse the day I ever heard of it. Is that enough experience for you?

    • http://www.facebook.com/dee.fogger Dee Fogger

      I’m late to the party and have yet to read the other responses to you. Reading all the comments preceding yours it appears that your comment is apropos of absolutely nothing contained above. Perhaps you’ve been waiting to post this and figured that today is the day. While I welcome opposing viewpoints I would counsel you to consider two main points. One, people commenting here know what they are talking about. Most have considerable experience with the cult and others have spent considerable time studying the subject. One does not have to actually experienced something, say rape for example, to be able to form an educated opinion on the subject. Two, I believe there is a great deal of agreement that there is something early in Scientology that causes people to continue on with the subject. It is exactly these preliminary wins in the early courses that baits the hook. If the introductory courses, before you learn about Xenu, space alien exorcisms, etc., where complete bunk and didn’t cause some changes then the organization would already be dead. You might also consider that these early courses are not the product of LRH.

    • grundoon

      Hi, Peter.

      Those parts of Scientology that you found valuable – auditing and the comm course – actually aren’t discussed much here. Many of us want to end the abuses and deaths, disconnection, child exploitation, compulsory abortion; assemble a truthful record of what happens in Scientology and how it got this way; and uncover the truth of Scientology’s many mysteries such as what really happened to Shelly Miscavige, Susan Meister, Quentin Hubbard, and LRH himself, and where all the money has gone.

      As the Miscavige regime lurches onward, the popular favorites like auditing and the comm course seem to make up an ever-smaller fraction of the Scientology customer experience. The Chruch doesn’t deliver much auditing any more – staff and SO get little or none – and training of new auditors has slowed to a trickle. (And DM’s new GAT-style auditing hasn’t improved things.) Instead of processing and training, the Church of Miscavige delivers big events, big buildings, lousy service and constant high-pressure fundraising.

      As for the comm course, many enjoyed it and say they were helped by it. But the benefit seems to be mostly personal and subjective. On the whole, its graduates don’t stand out above the crowd as better-than-average communicators. The Chruch’s International Headquarters could pick from the cream of the crop to communicate Scientology’s value to society, press and public; but their highest official communicator fails to impress. From her fortified hiding place, she never comes out, appearing only as a signature launching one-way gobs of venom over the Internet.

      The Church of Scientology works tirelessly to suppress free communication. Scientologists in good standing rarely speak freely to anyone on any subject, not even in session with their auditor (who is obliged to write up KRs on any out-ethics that comes up in session). Speaking freely equals ethics trouble. Scientologists communicate standardly to specific terminals along defined channels, in prescribed formulas such as CSWs and KRs and auditors’ patter, using LRH’s special language and quoting LRH policies and using ever fewer words or ideas of their own. Every Scientology course begins with KSW 1 in which Hubbard teaches that only his own ideas have value; other ideas must be hammered out of existence. It is debatable whether the comm course actually teaches communication, or compliance.

      One can get a fair notion of whether one will enjoy a movie by reading reviews and talking to friends who have seen it, and by watching the faces of an audience leaving the theater. Reading the reviews isn’t the same as seeing the movie, but if you enjoy light romantic comedies, reviews can save you from sitting through kiddie musicals or gruesome gore-fests.

      Hundreds of Scientologists, independent Scientologists, and ex-Scientologists have spoken and written in detail about their experiences, good and bad. So if you’re interested in the gains you could get from Scientology, you can check the reviews and look before you leap.

      If your interest runs less to personal gains, and more to things that shouldn’t be, like Scientology’s RPFed children and Narconon’s quack drug rehab deaths, or even such things as David Miscavige’s taxpayer-assisted millionaire lifestyle, you’ll find much food for thought and discussion here at Tony’s Underground Bunker.

      Welcome.

  • TonyOrtega

    I’ve just added an important update to the end of the story. Please give it a read.

    • California

      Thanks.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

      Glad to see the Oppenheimer update. I do understand his aim with the long-term infiltration but agree that he’s underestimating the risk to anyone embedded. It may show that he still doesn’t fully comprehend the nastiness of the organization.

      • stillgrace

        He probably won’t ever know the depth of nastiness possible until he’s at the mercy of it after he writes the actual truth about the cult.

        I’ve posted before about the wonderful friends I have who were/are public scientologists. Only one still in.

      • Poison Ivy

        Alanzo’s answer above breaks it down. Again I ask, what’s the problem with the testimonials of hundreds of “average” ex-Scientologists, who recall their experience in detail? Granted the experiences are subjective, but if you take the common denominator of hundreds of subjective experiences, you can make a somewhat objective assessment. That’s what historians have been doing since forever.

        • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

          Oppenheimer’s answer strikes me as worse than insufficient. We can’t get the real stories from people who experienced this first-hand, it has to be trickled through from a journalist studying precisely what Oppenheimer wants them to study in precisely the way he wants them to study it? Concentrating on only the specific type of people Oppenheimer wants them to concentrate on, and ignoring the rest? What he is saying is nonsensical. It is so nonsensical, I don’t trust him.

  • Chocolate Velvet

    I love Jamie DeWolfe. Talented, smart, and sexy as hell. Another reason I want to go to SF — to see one of the Snap Judgement or Section Ferocé shows….

  • mirele

    Thanks for the update, Tony. I have appropriately edited my comments to reflect your research.

    I would like to reiterate that we know what life is like for public Scientologists. It’s round after round of fighting off reges who want to hoover your wallet, mixed with occasional services where you’re put on the cans to defend yourself against Davey’s latest paranoia.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    We in RTC begin the weekend by noting that Lance Armstrong is worse than Scientology: http://otviiiisgrrr8.com/2013/01/19/lance-armstrong-is-worse-than-scientology/

    Oh and of course we shut down Larry Wright’s book in the UK and are gloating about it because it makes we in the Church of Scientology right in our perception that Scientology haters paid by Big Pharma are behind the existing scene is which Mankind’s only hope of salvation is irrationally attacked.

    All of you SP’s are stuck in an electronic incident.

    • 1subgenius

      But it makes my penis tingle.

      • BuryTheNuts2

        Gack…MYEYES!

        • 1subgenius

          From a true story.
          A friend of mine was on a packed elevator with his young son, when the boy said this about the elevator ride.

          • BuryTheNuts2

            subgenius..You are killin me.

          • whingeybingey

            Lol!

    • stillgrace

      And we all know what happens to those caught in electronic incidents … even OTVIII’s!!!

      • stillgrace

        Disqus won’t let me upload my George Baillie photo.

    • Chocolate Velvet

      Hey OTVIII, I sent COB a copy of 10cc’s Greatest Hits, and a sympathy card. Sorry, I just can’t help provoking the little guy…

      Just thought you in the RTC would like a heads up; expect some furniture smashing this weekend.

    • ze moo

      I am stuck in electronic cigarettes at the moment.

    • sugarplumfairy

      I just love it when you go all miscavitch on our butts..

  • 1subgenius

    “….hanging out for a year or so with average, non-high-ranking Scientologists to really soak up their experience.”

    Not only could/would that never happen (if CoS found out), why would it take that long, or even be necessary? Would anyone need that long with even a Mormon?
    Who the hell would have a year or so to do this?
    WTF. Oppenheimer is ……I’ll refrain.

    • ze moo

      No Kool-aid (can we call it KooK-aid?) drinker is going allow any reporter to hang around them without script approval. Or whatever script approval is called in the reporting world. Any Lroner who allowed this and was caught would be licking floors from NYC to LA.

      Oppenheimer is just keeping the door open for any scientologist to contact him and give him background on a story or help for something in the future. A infiltration story could be good, while they have been done before, one done from a psychological study of the people in the classes could be interesting. Just don’t get caught…..

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Tony, I hope you mentioned to Mr. Oppenheimer that you have “hung out” and “soaked up the experience” of scientologists every day for years now! And how many years has Larry Wright now spent with scientologists, how many thousands of hours did he put into his book? Same with Prof Kent. Maybe Patty should invite him to the 2013 SP Party and soak up some lobster sauce. I have no idea where we would ever find a “normal” scientologist though. lol

  • mook
  • DeElizabethan

    Re Oppenheimer, IMHO I think he is just coming from a Christian like view, loving, forgiving, etc and not really wanting to believe or even look at the evil side.

    • Observer

      And that is one of the main reasons Scientology has been able to continue this long.

      • DeElizabethan

        Yes!

    • aboutandout

      I absolutely agree with you. This comment also pertains to a large portion of the general public. As soon as you say they believe in space aliens people start tuning out and when you start to try to engage them in any discussion about the corruption and abuse…especially the details of the abuse, it translates as totally unbelievable or the “whacky” people are just making this stuff up. Trust me I see the glazed look on peoples face when I try to rally the troops to awareness…it is frustrating. But I am not giving up.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        And now we have a docudrama from Investigation Discovery of Nancy Many’s story. Just have them watch it. No need to ‘splain a thing. It has all the elements for any sane, loving, forgiving human being to understand: It’s crazy And it’s Evil

      • DeElizabethan

        Good on you and me neither. Finally, I got a friend who had little interest of the subject, to watch Nancy’s film since I couldn’t, and tho posted on another thread, will repeat here. See, it’s from not giving up.

        “Saw the show last night, the infiltration into our government is tantamount to
        terrorism. I have next weeks episode scheduled on my DVR. I was kinda of
        shocked that you did not post this show on facebook as we need all the expose that is possible.

        This is a huge step forward for a tv show to take notice of this injustice. National
        attention is not easy to garner. I will post to face book next week before the show airs. Ok, I just checked my directv guide and this show “My Eternal Contract”- Dangerous Persuasions reairs this Saturday at 12 noon Pacific time
        on the Investigation Discovery channel. I also noticed during the show that there was a twitter hashtag displayed on the screen, I think it was
        #DangerousPersuasions. This is all good and I will continue to track this story.”
        PS: I don’t post on FB, don’t ask.

  • DeElizabethan

    Jamie DeWolf ROCKS! It’s thrilling me that he keep speaking out.

  • http://www.AlanzosBlog.com/ Alanzo

    “Oppenheimer also was very gracious about our criticisms (always the sign of a real pro), and he explained that he still feels, from a social science perspective, that what’s missing is the kind of immersive embedding that a scholar or reporter could do by hanging out for a year or so with average, non-high-ranking Scientologists to really soak up their experience. We can see how that would be valuable, but we still think it’s important for someone with that aim to have the backing of a major organization rather than a college newspaper or a zine. We may disagree on some points, but it was a very fruitful discussion.”

    Here is the Ato J Meter check in Scientology, performed on all students and preclears upon their entering their first course or auditing action, and many times theereafter – looking for just such a relationship.

    A-1. Have any of your family or friends ever expressed any disagreement with Scientology?
    A-2. Is there someone who doesn’t want you to be here?
    A-3. Are you here to prove to someone that Scientology works, or to show them.
    B-1. Do you have a criminal record?
    B-2. Have you committed any crimes for which you have not been caught?
    C-1. Have you ever threatened to sue or embarrass or attack Scientology or Scientologists?
    C-2. Do you know of anyone who has?
    D-3. Is anyone or anything the cause of the way you are now, or some condition you are in?
    E-1. Are you here on your own determinism?
    E-2. Do you feel obliged in any way or to any one to be here?
    F-1. Are you here to see if Scientology works?
    F-2. Does Scientology always work for you?
    H-1. Do you want to get better?
    H-2. Do you know of any other mental technology that works?
    I-1. What gains are you expecting in Scientology?
    J-1. Do you represent an attempt to investigate Scientology?
    J-2. Do you know of anyone who is investigating Scientology?
    J-5. Have you ever had thoughts of suing or requesting refund if the tech “didn’t work”?

    The person that Mr. Oppenheimer would like to see this happen to would be considered PTS (a Potential Trouble Source) and would be threatened with declare and expulsion if he did not sever his relationship with the scholar or reporter completely and provide abundant evidence that this severance has occurred. Scientology ethics policy forbids any kind of relationship like this.

    So, for this to happen, it would have to be secret. And the scientology student would be considered a “plant” by the organization and would be OSA Bait. We’re not talkng about the scholar or reporter, we are talking about the student who is willingly working with them.

    Scientology is always on the lookout for this sort of thing and have, since the 1960′s, built in security checks to keep this from occurring – in every org or mission on the planet.

    Mr. Oppenhiemer needs to study up on L Ron Hubbard’s ethics policies.

    Alanzo

    • BuryTheNuts2

      Amen, Alanzo! Thank you so much for breaking it down to this degree.

    • DeElizabethan

      You said it Alanzo, and this is true. I went through this in ’11 and because I hadn’t been on the internet or in touch with anyone for years to any degree, though it wasn’t easy and I was truthful with all, so it went OK. I can laugh at it now. You are right, Mr Oppenheimer just doesn’t know what a new or returning person is confronted with and I hope he reads your piece.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Maybe you could supervise him through an OSA Hat Pack so he can be edumacated and enlightened on their 50 Ways to Locate your Reporter and most importantly, what happens if said student or reporter gets caught. I think this link is still good for Frank Oliver’s documents so that you too can be an OSA slimy spy!

      http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology_Office_of_Special_Affairs_and_Frank_Oliver

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gerard-Plourde/1127841398 Gerard Plourde

      Your post shows how self-protective the CO$ is. I don’t see how an investigator could get through this.

      • http://www.AlanzosBlog.com/ Alanzo

        Yeah. It’s almost like L Ron Hubbard knew that he was using classical brainwashing techniques on people to take them for anything of value that they had, and he wanted to avoid anyone finding out what he was doing for as long as he possibly could.

        Alanzo

    • Poison Ivy

      GREAT post Alanzo. Very good points. I hope Tony O passes them on to Oppenheimer. Does he deal with as many exes as post here, on ESMB, or even Marty’s blog?

  • whingeybingey

    I found it really annoying that I couldn’t comment on the Oppenheimer piece without being a subscriber. And, no I wasn’t going to spend forty bucks just so I could leave a comment.

  • villagedianne

    Oppenheimer may not be aware, but lots of average Scientologists are telling their stories on Marty’s blog.

    • Poison Ivy

      Good point, villagedianne. I think there are plenty of stories of “average” Scientologists who have left. As for the embedding, I think that would take a reporter going undercover him or her self for a year or more. And if Hardeep’s experience is any indication, that person would be risking brainwashing themselves. I don’t understand why the testimonials of hundreds of “exes” isn’t enough for Oppenheimer.

    • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

      I don’t think Oppenheimer cares about the stories of average Scientologists. To be valid to Oppenheimer, those stories have to be filtered through a journalist in exactly the way Oppenheimer says. His answer was elitist, egotistical, and ignorant, and as I said above, I do not trust him one bit.

  • DMSTCC

    One of my main early sources of learning about C0$ has a new post. Way to go AskTheScientologist…

    http://therealaskthescientologist.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/happy-new-year-2013/

    • DeElizabethan

      Thanks, great article and site.

    • Poison Ivy

      From your “ask the Scientologist” guy: “While I think it’s kind of funny how all the abuses and crimes of the Church of Scientology are now new news when so many people have been screaming about them for decades, still the attention and exposure is all good” Oh yeah. It is ironic that this has been going on for years; Tony’s been reporting for years; many of us have been following for years, buying the rare book that came out, haunting the internet for the testimonials of survivors. It IS a great thing that perhaps 2013 will be the tipping point year. But man, it’s taking a long time.

      • DMSTCC

        LOL – ‘From your “ask the Scientologist” guy’

        I’ll fix that for ya and remove the word “main”

        • DMSTCC

          Delete Post fails.

      • DeElizabethan

        You PI with Tony and other’s who have been pushing the snowball are so appreciated. I came on from little over a year ago. What would I have done without you. You guys are the rock and all latecomers are the moss that will help suffocate it (or the big snowball will explode.) I’m just happy to contribute and be part of the justice that will come and proud to be amongst all of you. Thanks to all!

    • http://surisburnbook.tumblr.com/ nobs

      I love Bill. I’ve been reading that blog for many years. Also liberally copypasta-ing (with credit, of course) lots of his articles.

  • BosonStark

    Oh BS to Mark Oppenheimer — there are thousands of ex-members and many of them, like Alanzo, who have related their deepest feelings and joy about Sciloontology during their “stupid” years — as Haggis might say.

    Do you think scholars or reporters are immune to brainwashing? Sweeney was disturbed reporting on it for a few weeks/months. How is it we know anything about concentration camps or being an SS officer when so few reporters or scholars were secretly embedded in either group?

    And Hubbard is such a freaking loon!

    For example, I understand the role of psychiatry and psychiatrists in the Holocaust, and its relation to the development of Hitler’s thinking. Yet, to make the leap to Scientology lunacy, that the evil psychs caused the Holocaust?

    The last thing we need is another scholar struggling to see the “good” in Scientology. It’s a trap! It’s a scam! There are no OTs or clears. I know someone personally who found some of the training routines disturbing! He quit after six weeks. 80% of people who tried Scientology courses during their golden years of brainwashing, quit after two years. That’s a pretty significant number.

    Aside from books, blog sites, and stories from ex-members, the answers to these things are in cult studies, and Opp needs to read Steve Hassan or the more illustrious scholars who have done work in that area.

    • John P.

      Comment of the week:

      How is it we know anything about concentration camps or being an SS officer when
      so few reporters or scholars were secretly embedded in either group?

      • DeElizabethan

        Perfect!

    • sugarplumfairy

      Yah.. Does someone who writes about the drug community have to get addicted to heroin to do it properly? Oppenheimer’s premise is stupid..

    • ParticleMom

      I just finished watching the 60′s film Shock Corridor, about a journalist who goes undercover in a mental hospital to solve a murder. He is subjected to many of the horrors LRH feared at the hands of the psychs. Needless to say, he solves the murder and loses his mind.

      Today, we are concerned about a journalist entering an org undercover and losing his ability to think clearly. Hubbard seems to have created another form of the institution he most feared.

      • Captain Howdy

        “Shock Corroidor”, cult classic directed by the legendary Sam Fuller. IMO his best work.

  • RodenBen

    At 6:30 PM today the 19th the local ABC affiliate ran a 20′ ad for lronhubbard.org! This is the first local buy ad I am aware of and I have been an active researcher since last Sept. Anybody have anything simular in their market?

    • SP ‘Onage

      I won’t even click on that link.

      • EnthralledObserver

        omg, I did, and an hour later, ribs aching from laughing and brain hurting from the absudity of his claims I found the will to click away. He really misssed his calling… he would have been a great entertainer had he embraced the fact that he just made it all up.
        FFS… in his own voice (I assume) he implied (among many such similar examples) that an almost ever compounding flow of intelligent men could not understand the very basics of their fields that would even occur to my ten year old child. such as a psychiatrist didn’t understand ‘why’ he was keeping records of his patients… and nor did this man comprehend he was treating a human mind; and it took Hubbard’s efforts to teach him such basics – the utter absurdity of his claims is mind boggling – not to mention what sort of idiot would believe any of it, particularly presented all clumped together like this. Of course, very very few actual names, places and specific times supplied during his anecdotes, so none of it at all verifyable… but no doubt that’s part of the con, if you challenged his account the powers that be would just say it must have happened at a different time.
        I did find it ironic how many times Hubbard seemed to admit he couldn’t get his point across to nor convince these such otherwise intelligent men though (if any of the stories were true) – it seems Hubbard didn’t even recognise the embarrasment in those admissions. i.e. that he might have been wrong or failed to communicate effectively – or both. Hahaha.

        • SP ‘Onage

          Nice post! :)

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Eckert/100002715429426 Robert Eckert

          What if you had to do a shot every time he said “and so on” or “and so forth”? That seemed to be his verbal tic when he wasn’t sure what to make up next.

          • EnthralledObserver

            Uh huh *nod*… man, I’d be retching my guts up… actually, no I’d be in a coma… uh, nup dead, alcohol poisoning!… And we wouldn’t even be twenty minutes in yet…

            I kinda felt the ‘and so on, and so forth’ bit was very telling of those moment when he realised himself that if he continued he would be caught out, because those were the places the actual ‘indepth knowledge’ of a subject would have been injected, had he had any – which he obviously didn’t.

  • SopranoAscends

    Jaime is something of a legend & a hero here in the SF Bay area with his creative theatre projects. In addition to his monologues about grandpappy, he was interviewed by a local affiliate of one of the networks at a Annonymous driven protest at a CS building in the SOMA neighborhood. Jaime speaking up about all this is not all that recent, but has gained attention due to The Great Purge of late. He is active on Facebook as well. You can find many clips of his shows on YT. Cross reference Tourettes Without Regrets.

  • jensting

    Maybe Oppenheimer is so busy giving individual members the benefit of the doubt that he willfully ignores the very real mass of evidence that the criminal organisation is – for want of a better word – evil?

  • http://twitter.com/media_lush media_lush

    Dear Mr Mark Oppenheimer

    I feel all your discourse on Scientology can best be summed up as:

    You’re trying to polish a turd.

    The harder you try the stinkier you’ll get.

  • SP ‘Onage

    It’s obvious scientology’s tentacles have a tight grip on Disney/ABC. Scientology is just like an octopus hiding behind a cloud of black ink, they try to obscure your view and hide the truth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-Luskin/100000228126773 Mark Luskin

    Is Carmichael still active? I assumed after the “I smell p@$$y” video and other mishandlings of the Anonymous kids he was taken out of main action.

  • SP ‘Onage

    I think Oppenheimer is back peddling just like Joseph K. Grieboski, who blogged at Huffington Post’s Religion section did. The New York Post should be leary of Oppenheimer.

  • It All Comes Out

    “…he explained that he still feels, from a social science perspective, that what’s missing is the kind of immersive embedding that a scholar or reporter could do by hanging out for a year or so with average, non-high-ranking Scientologists to really soak up their experience.”

    The testimony that has resulted from “immersive embedding” has come over and over again from non-celebrity scientologists who have left. How much evidence does he need? His standard of “proof” is arbitrary and in error. No one should have to endanger their financial, emotional and physical well-being to pretend to be genuinely pursuing a religious experience in order to restate what has already been stated endlessly, from a wide range of sources.

    Does Oppenheimer not realize that the “immersive embedding” experiment that he proposes could result in life-threatening, vindictive actions being directed against this hypothetical college investigator that could change their lives for the worse, permanently?

    He seems to be incapable of acknowledging the risks associated with being drawn into the scientology game. And where would the money come from that these college reporters would require to participate? And what would happen to the organization that provided those funds when scientology’s vindictive, avaricious bureaucracy started their own investigation of these college reporters and their backers?

    It’s like saying you can’t have a real understanding of “ordinary quicksand” unless you decide to immerse yourself in it – you may discover it’s real properties and conditions, but who will save you once you are that far in?

    His idea is utterly irresponsible and a completely arbitrary “test”. He should know enough by now to have a good picture of what goes on for “ordinary” scientologists. If he’s still in denial of its dangers, the question is why? Why does he insist on some arbitrary “social science” perspective? If it weren’t for your kind words, Tony, I would smell a huge rat.

    And congrats to Jamie DeWolf! It’s great to realize that scientologists are a little wary of demonizing the direct descendant of El Wrong and so are restrained in their criticisms of him. Go, Jamie – tell it like it is!

  • Jane

    I remember watching a German documentary on YouTube in which a reporter went undercover and ‘joined’ the Church of Scientology. He was supposed to be in for a year but pulled out after 6 months because, he said, even though he went in very anti-the cult he was horrified by how rapidly he was being sucked in and brainwashed and was not sure he would have ever left if he’d stayed in longer.