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	Comments on: Professor Hugh Urban takes us to task for our review of his Scientology OT 8 investigation	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/</link>
	<description>TONY ORTEGA on SCIENTOLOGY</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 May 2017 09:06:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Dice シ		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1833220</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dice シ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2017 09:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1833220</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824919&quot;&gt;BeeTee&lt;/a&gt;.

He did. Read the comments below...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824919">BeeTee</a>.</p>
<p>He did. Read the comments below&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick Alan Ross		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1827227</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Alan Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2017 16:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1827227</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks Tony. 

Your response clarifies the problem with some academics that seem to apologize for Scientology and somehow excuse its secretive nature.

Urban isn&#039;t as bad as J. Gordon Melton. Melton will pretty much recite whatever he is told by a group and has made a great deal of money over the years working for various organizations called &quot;cults.&quot;

But what Urban fails so badly at in his analysis is simply that Scientology&#039;s penchant for secrecy isn&#039;t a genuine or meaningful focus for religious studies. It&#039;s simply a classic con (&quot;bait and switch&quot;) game. That is, what you see is not what you get. And Scientology&#039;s secrecy is really about deception or as many former Scientologists say &quot;lies.&quot; 

Perhaps the best politically correct spin Urban might offer is that Scientology&#039;s religious recruitment process is deliberately misleading, regarding its potential paying participants.

Simply put, Scientology&#039;s scheme to deliberately mislead people is less like religion and more like a business model, as conceived and implemented by Hubbard. A neat trick that worked so good when Hubbard died he left behind at least $600 million.

Dancing around that single most salient point about Scientology, deliberate and calculated deception, is academically dishonest and intellectually incoherent.

KSW today under Miscavige still means trickery, deceit and making money from people using the Hubbard machine. A new dictator at the top, but still the SOS.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Tony. </p>
<p>Your response clarifies the problem with some academics that seem to apologize for Scientology and somehow excuse its secretive nature.</p>
<p>Urban isn&#8217;t as bad as J. Gordon Melton. Melton will pretty much recite whatever he is told by a group and has made a great deal of money over the years working for various organizations called &#8220;cults.&#8221;</p>
<p>But what Urban fails so badly at in his analysis is simply that Scientology&#8217;s penchant for secrecy isn&#8217;t a genuine or meaningful focus for religious studies. It&#8217;s simply a classic con (&#8220;bait and switch&#8221;) game. That is, what you see is not what you get. And Scientology&#8217;s secrecy is really about deception or as many former Scientologists say &#8220;lies.&#8221; </p>
<p>Perhaps the best politically correct spin Urban might offer is that Scientology&#8217;s religious recruitment process is deliberately misleading, regarding its potential paying participants.</p>
<p>Simply put, Scientology&#8217;s scheme to deliberately mislead people is less like religion and more like a business model, as conceived and implemented by Hubbard. A neat trick that worked so good when Hubbard died he left behind at least $600 million.</p>
<p>Dancing around that single most salient point about Scientology, deliberate and calculated deception, is academically dishonest and intellectually incoherent.</p>
<p>KSW today under Miscavige still means trickery, deceit and making money from people using the Hubbard machine. A new dictator at the top, but still the SOS.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark Foster		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1827052</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Foster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2017 11:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1827052</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1827028&quot;&gt;tigger&lt;/a&gt;.

I get what you´re saying with the memory; same here, as well as regaining the ability to really feel emotions and also focus/concentrate/be present...There first 2 years or so after leaving I was in a fog; I´d spontaneously ¨space out¨. Incredibly frustrating, but I got through it...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1827028">tigger</a>.</p>
<p>I get what you´re saying with the memory; same here, as well as regaining the ability to really feel emotions and also focus/concentrate/be present&#8230;There first 2 years or so after leaving I was in a fog; I´d spontaneously ¨space out¨. Incredibly frustrating, but I got through it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: tigger		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1827028</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tigger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 May 2017 10:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1827028</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1825431&quot;&gt;Mark Foster&lt;/a&gt;.

I know!  At least its not slow anymore (downhill part now) cause I&#039;m almost 65 and would love a few years being semi normal.  As soon as I recognized Ron for who he really is all hell broke loose but I&#039;m in control now.  My memory is coming back that I didn&#039;t know was gone.  Hugs to you too :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1825431">Mark Foster</a>.</p>
<p>I know!  At least its not slow anymore (downhill part now) cause I&#8217;m almost 65 and would love a few years being semi normal.  As soon as I recognized Ron for who he really is all hell broke loose but I&#8217;m in control now.  My memory is coming back that I didn&#8217;t know was gone.  Hugs to you too 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: salin		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1826318</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[salin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 18:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1826318</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1826264&quot;&gt;Sine qua non&lt;/a&gt;.

There are many stories about how that word came to mean people from Indiana.  My fave is back in the frontier days a brawl broke out in a bar.  At the end of the fight the barkeep leaned down and picked something off the floor and started calling out:  &quot;Whose ear? Whose ear?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1826264">Sine qua non</a>.</p>
<p>There are many stories about how that word came to mean people from Indiana.  My fave is back in the frontier days a brawl broke out in a bar.  At the end of the fight the barkeep leaned down and picked something off the floor and started calling out:  &#8220;Whose ear? Whose ear?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sine qua non		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1826264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sine qua non]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1826264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1824309&quot;&gt;salin&lt;/a&gt;.

I know, because I am from Indiana originally. 

Honestly,  I think most people are pretty aware that Hoosiers are Indiana folk, if only because the IU basketball team&#039;s successes have publicized the term.  However I think there continues to be widespread uncertainty as to how the word Hoosier came to be. 

As for the St.Louis variation,  I was not aware of that,  but that&#039;s okay. 😉]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1824309">salin</a>.</p>
<p>I know, because I am from Indiana originally. </p>
<p>Honestly,  I think most people are pretty aware that Hoosiers are Indiana folk, if only because the IU basketball team&#8217;s successes have publicized the term.  However I think there continues to be widespread uncertainty as to how the word Hoosier came to be. </p>
<p>As for the St.Louis variation,  I was not aware of that,  but that&#8217;s okay. 😉</p>
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		<title>
		By: Artoo45		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1825993</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Artoo45]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 14:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1825993</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824922&quot;&gt;flyonthewall&lt;/a&gt;.

As my grandfather used to say &quot;If you can&#039;t stand the greasepaint, stay out of the circus.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824922">flyonthewall</a>.</p>
<p>As my grandfather used to say &#8220;If you can&#8217;t stand the greasepaint, stay out of the circus.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mat Pesch		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825970</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mat Pesch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 13:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1825970</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825390&quot;&gt;ombrifuge&lt;/a&gt;.

There are also lower gradient drills like finding dates of significance to the Coach like their birthday, using the meter in much the same way.  Another is to ask the Coach what their favorite color, animal, country, etc is, than read down a list of items and based on the size of the instant reactions to each item, find the answer.  While it is true that increasing the pressure on the cans will affect the needle on the meter, it looks totally different from a reaction caused naturally and couldn&#039;t be confused by someone familiar with using the meter.    The theory is that when a person creates or automatically records things in the mind, that idea or picture has mass and thus electrical resistance.  When a question is asked there is an automatic mental response right at the end of the question.  If you ask a person for a time they hurt themselves there will be an exact needle response at the end of the question even if the person doesn&#039;t know themselves at that moment what the answer is.   Knowing that there was a response to the question the person can be asked to look, basically into their memory.   When the person operating the meter sees the exact needle response he asks &quot;What&#039;s that&quot; and helps direct the person to the memory.   When the meter is used to find a crime it works like this:  &quot;Have you stolen anything?&quot;  If the person did, the needle will react at the end of the question.  Lets say the person did steal something, they know exactly what they did and they are trying to get away with it.  They think of different things but none of them read the same and they are staling.  The person repeats the question and bang there is the same read and he asks &quot;What is that?&quot;  Bang.  &quot;Ya, that&quot;
&quot;That&quot; and the person knows they are caught and they give up the crime.   I have been on both end of this and it is very precise and effective when used by a person trained on using the meter.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825390">ombrifuge</a>.</p>
<p>There are also lower gradient drills like finding dates of significance to the Coach like their birthday, using the meter in much the same way.  Another is to ask the Coach what their favorite color, animal, country, etc is, than read down a list of items and based on the size of the instant reactions to each item, find the answer.  While it is true that increasing the pressure on the cans will affect the needle on the meter, it looks totally different from a reaction caused naturally and couldn&#8217;t be confused by someone familiar with using the meter.    The theory is that when a person creates or automatically records things in the mind, that idea or picture has mass and thus electrical resistance.  When a question is asked there is an automatic mental response right at the end of the question.  If you ask a person for a time they hurt themselves there will be an exact needle response at the end of the question even if the person doesn&#8217;t know themselves at that moment what the answer is.   Knowing that there was a response to the question the person can be asked to look, basically into their memory.   When the person operating the meter sees the exact needle response he asks &#8220;What&#8217;s that&#8221; and helps direct the person to the memory.   When the meter is used to find a crime it works like this:  &#8220;Have you stolen anything?&#8221;  If the person did, the needle will react at the end of the question.  Lets say the person did steal something, they know exactly what they did and they are trying to get away with it.  They think of different things but none of them read the same and they are staling.  The person repeats the question and bang there is the same read and he asks &#8220;What is that?&#8221;  Bang.  &#8220;Ya, that&#8221;<br />
&#8220;That&#8221; and the person knows they are caught and they give up the crime.   I have been on both end of this and it is very precise and effective when used by a person trained on using the meter.</p>
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		<title>
		By: dchoiceisalwaysrs		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825797</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dchoiceisalwaysrs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 10:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1825797</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825432&quot;&gt;Doug Parent&lt;/a&gt;.

Personal experience  before during and after involvement with scientology.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-1/#comment-1825432">Doug Parent</a>.</p>
<p>Personal experience  before during and after involvement with scientology.</p>
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		By: Jenyfurrrrr		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1825779</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jenyfurrrrr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2017 08:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=39586#comment-1825779</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824445&quot;&gt;tigger&lt;/a&gt;.

Cece I&#039;ve heard bits and pieces of your story over time but this had me in tears. Hugs and kudos to you for being as strong and amazing as you are!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/01/professor-hugh-urban-takes-us-to-task-for-our-review-of-his-scientology-ot-8-investigation/comment-page-2/#comment-1824445">tigger</a>.</p>
<p>Cece I&#8217;ve heard bits and pieces of your story over time but this had me in tears. Hugs and kudos to you for being as strong and amazing as you are!</p>
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