fyi: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4505e4f2898c98498c3391e51b56695a2b69d8f1bdb92fb3f892edb25614cc93.gif found this odd “Star Certificate” dated 1997 and 1995

These ideas rather remind me of the dilemma of ‘alternative’ medicine. If it can be show to be supported by evidence it becomes just medicine. If it can’t, it isn’t – ever.

If ‘spiritual’ practices can be separated from supernatural underpinnings, and their psychologically therapeutic claims shown to be supported by evidence, they enter mainstream science. The only remaining problem is finding a rational explanation for their effectiveness.

As for me, I’m a practitioner of what the US author Kurt Vonnegut called ‘occidental meditation’. It is practised with a ritual object called a ‘book’ and the meditator immerses themselves in the best of another persons mind.

The danger of practices like meditation, which have no implicit content, is intellectual lotus eating, and I have to say that I recoil slightly from that prospect.

This is indeed something to discuss at a personal meeting – mine’s a mug of tea.

Once Born, I think we do indeed see things rather similarly, and I write mostly in the spirit of comparing ideas and information, as we both seem to want to fine-tune our understandings. It’s hard to really have an effective discussion in an online environment – I wish we could sit down and chat over a cuppa, or a pint.
I do think that there can be modern, often derivative, practices that retain elements that can rightly regarded as spiritual, providing individuals with much the same meaning and even transcendent experiences, without supernatural beliefs or dogma. That may be the trend or even breakthrough of the 21st century, spirituality without religiosity. To some extent I think that was the appeal and attraction of Scientology, though it betrayed that ideal by ended up falling into the traps of traditional religiosity and institutionalized religion (as I’ve noted elsewhere recently, Hubbard had a real pattern of identifying a problem, and then ending up exemplifying it).
An interesting example is something like yoga, which can be done just as an exercise, which we see happening – a bit of cultural appropriation that has some troubling implications, but that is certainly not the topic here. Then, it can be done in a way that is exercise, combined with some meditative qualities or practices that may lead individuals to experiences with personal or even spiritual aspects – and that, also, is still somewhat derivative of the original Indian context. And, finally, it can be done in one of its many varieties of original context, fully integrated with Hinduism or Buddhism. Interestingly, many Indians don’t even make a distinction between the physical and meditative practices of Yoga.
p.s. Sorry for my own delay!

question: of all the people who you mention including yourself, how many actually took the time to look into what they were getting involved in in anyway BEFOREHAND? in any way? information was ALWAYS out there for decades well before the internet… books, articles, ex-members, etcetera, etcetera…sorry, but i do not abide by the no internet and thus not as much information argument….if the very first step or information is that a little known, very small, new and secretive “religion” is created by a science fiction writer??…….if you have education and critical thinking skills and experience with ANY previous religion/faith/church and know and inherently know that 1) no religion/church/faith would charge and demand payment for anything 2) that anything that quote “works” could have been found in a 10 dollar self help book and that the cult ONLY (after stealing of course) changed definitions, made up words and so on to make anything that “works” sound unique, intelligent, important and “techie” sounding… 3) when you get your first audit and are told a cheap looking piece of “machinery” is so powerful and can read and measure the weight of thoughts and whatever else, and ONLY this “religion” has such a device? and never mind what you are asked, never any “religion/church/faith’s business in the first damn place and so on…. these INITIAL red flags and nothing? nothing made anyone stop and pause?…

i’m afraid to say these reasons and more are why many in the public rightly or wrongly think that those who got involved in scientology whenever or however they did (except those who were born into it and didn’t know any better) quote “deserve it, deserve what they get/got”….in saying that, i am on your side, i DO TRY to defend those who got in and now got out and those who are still in…..the why’s and how’s are NOT AS important as the truth and what went on and is still going on,, illegality, immorality, unethical and in every definition of the word “abuse”…

i commend you for getting out and speaking out and raising awareness in closing…

Dear Tracy

First let me say that from what you write I have the impression that you’ve never been into Scientology (but excuse me if I’m wrong ).

Then let me take advantage of this discussion to say something more general that I feel it’s important.

Never-ins tend to see Scientology like a coarse scam with a big red sign STAY
AWAY on its front (… and indeed it is but in the past its oddities were far less exposed) and they think they would never fallen into the trap.

This may be true today, when Internet is giving access to a lot of informations, but 20/30 years ago things were different.

Today I wouldn’t fall into the trap, but 20 years ago – in a moment of major
personal difficulties – I fell. Sure I was not stripped of my will and I had my part in it, but at the time I really thought I had found a workable system, given the good results I had in the beginning.

If someone want to understand why Scientology is (or should I say was?) so
dangerous one should consider the many smart people (not me, of course) that fell (for shorter or longer time) into the trap, ie: Jon Atack, Jason Beghe, Bent Corydon, William Burroughs, Tory Christman, Paul Haggis, Mike Rinder, Nicky Hopkins, Chick Corea, Leonard Cohen, Van Morrison, and so on…

I personally audited lawyers, medical doctors, highly esteemed professionals, managers, not to say artists and many of them lasted for years before gradually leaving Scn, tired of the continuous promises mixed with high pressure sales and requests for more more money and more more time.

Today it’s quite easy to indicate Scientology abuses and unacceptable behaviors or
to make fun of the cult absurdities, but decades ago there were almost
no informations, its appearance was more benign (if you didn’t join the Sea Org), the techniques at the low level were sometimes effective (in my own case more than the
psychoanalisys) and very few knew the disturbing backstories of the
cult (and the scientologists who knew they would not talk about).

I have a few ideas I could write for your blog, if you’d allow me. If not, we’re still cool fist bump it out for peace.

let me say i commend you and so so many others for leaving and now speaking out in anyway and in any form you can… thank goodness you saw the light…

not trying to be “flippant” or “full of myself” but gosh knows i have self esteem and family issues and childhood trauma and other “ingredients” that would lend itself for me to find answers and absolution and what not from a variety of sources. i always said if the ingredients to joining scientology or any abusive cults were what i’ve experienced, i would be in about 5 of them!……however, guess it’s just me, i always knew and still know that only i can help myself, no one, no thing can….always also had a healthy distrust of ANYONE or ANYTHING that says it could help with ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING 100% and would work 100%… there is no such thing in this world in any regard that is that… that i always knew….

let me say in closing, i commend you once again, and while i could go on and post some negative perhaps “tough love” comments and replies to what you just posted i will not……

all the best…….

First let me say that I largely agree with you, Tracy. Unfortunately it is not enough to say “people need to trust themselves first and respect themselves first” to make it happen. There are a lot of people that have self esteem problems, family problems, marital problems … if you look at a virtual shop like amazon you’ll find hundreds of self help books, If you try (here in EU) to book a psychoanalitic/psychiatric session you’ll have to wait to find a free therapist because the demand is very high. If you look at the selling rate of psychotropic drugs and antidepressants you will see that their statistics are stellar. The truth is that a lot of people is unhappy and is looking for remedies. Surely I am not recommending Scientology as a valid path to fix psychological problems, but a lot of people (as myself in 1987, AFTER trying psychotherapy without any result) saw Hubbard’s way as a possible solution. Here we are a lot of ex-scnist, evidently – TIME AGO – we all considered for a while Hubbard as a valid expert. And as long as we considered him as a reliable therapist we were willing to answer even to his invasive questions. Then we saw the light and we left.

Well said!