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Putting back a family ripped apart by Scientology can be easier said than done

[Claudio Lugli and his son Flavio, in 1990]

On Thursday, we told you about what appeared to be a new development in Scientology’s “disconnection” policy that rips apart families. Like so many other parents, Claudio and Renata Lugli have not heard from their son Flavio in years because they chose to leave the Church of Scientology and he did not. But after not hearing from him for six years, Flavio suddenly started a blog.

In his blog, Flavio accused his parents of disconnecting from him and not the other way around, and of hiding “sins” that they would have to atone for. Flavio’s brother, Tiziano Lugli, told us the language in Flavio’s blog didn’t sound like him, and that he suspected it was the work of a Scientology Office of Special Affairs operative in Brescia, Italy, who has targeted Claudio and Renata with other online attacks.

Now, we have some new developments to tell you about and that we thought would be interesting for the many other families who have spent years hoping they could at least talk to their loved ones in Scientology.

After seeing our story, a tipster gave us what they said was a telephone number for Flavio, which we passed on to Claudio and Renata Lugli. They called it and it did not ring to Flavio, but it did lead to someone who eventually told them how to reach Flavio. Here’s what Claudio told us:

We called the number, but a female voice answered that sounded very similar to Flavio’s wife Jelena. So we hung up and called Hania Mrkos, Jelena’s father, and gave him the number to call.

After ten minutes he called us and said “I spoke to Flavio! The girl you heard was not Jelena, so I asked for Flavio and they put him on the phone. He was very friendly, told me he had bought a motorcycle, and that he was happy. It was a very social call. I asked him how was Jelena and he said she was good. I asked him to tell her to call me. He said he would and then said goodbye.”

Wow. So we used the same number and we called him. He was so excited we could hear his voice shaking. I said “Ciao, Flavio, it’s me, your dad.” After a bit of a time lag he answered, “Ciao, how are you?”

I said that I was doing fine and asked how about him and he answered he was doing great and that he was on the East Coast.

Then we told him we had seen the blog and that we were very surprised that “he” wrote on it that “we had abandoned him!” He hesitated a long time and then answered, “Well, OK, I understand.” So Renata asked him why he wrote that we had never been a true family. He didn’t answer that, but he replied that this communication was very strange, and it was strange that it happened while he was on tour. So he was avoiding the issue. We pointed out again that he had said on the blog that we had abandoned him, but here we were, getting his number and calling him.

Very surprisingly, he said, “Finally, you tracked me down.”

We decided to take on the disconnection directly, and we asked him if he could continue to communicate with us. He said that we were the ones who had chosen the wrong path, so how could we stay in communication?

“Which path are you talking about?” I asked, and he said that we had chosen to go on the Internet and say bad things. I said what we had said online was only the truth, but he didn’t want to discuss it. “I love you and you love me and that’s it, end of cycle,” he said.

But I pushed him, asking him why he was allowing OSA to write on the Internet that we had never been a good family. He didn’t answer, and I thought it was a sign that he didn’t actually know what OSA had been saying about us. He said his only interest was that we should leave him and his church alone.

Renata took the phone and told him that she was sorry, because karma would not be kind to him in the future for treating her the way he had and betraying her. She said he should fix things, and stop being loyal to a David Miscavige — and she did not use kind words about Miscavige. Flavio said nothing for a while before he said “I understand,” and tried to switch to small talk — what we call “good roads, fair weather” talk in Scientology.

I spoke to him again and told him that I just wanted him to be well and to do well in life and that we are not putting anything negative about him on the ‘net, and I said he should ask his friends in OSA what they’ve been doing to us. He said he was just auditing and going up the Bridge and that he didn’t want to be involved in all this mess. He said the conversation we were having was weird. I said it was a good thing that we were talking, and that we were here for him as we always have been in case he needs our help.

He said he was on the road and he was auditing and doing what he liked to do, and if we went a different direction that as our choice, but he doesn’t hate us for it. We told him we had chosen a different path because Scientology was not what we had known it to be, that it had been perverted and we felt it was our duty to inform him of that. He didn’t like that, and told us it was just our viewpoint, saying, “Really, there is no problem in Scientology whatsoever.”

If there wasn’t a problem, I said, then why does he have to be disconnected from us? Why couldn’t we talk freely about our points of view? He didn’t answer for a long time, and then he just repeated that he was doing well, and he was on the road and auditing. I pushed the point again, saying if things were so good, why couldn’t a father and a son have a relationship just because they had different views? He started making excuses that it wasn’t his phone and he needed to get off the line. And he told us again he wanted us not to write the things we did on the Internet, and that he had not disconnected from us, we had just chosen our own direction.

I didn’t like that and said, “What are you talking about, you never disconnected? We haven’t heard from you in six years.” And he said, “It was you that took that road, I never did. You put me on this path to auditing, and for that I thank you.”

Renata at that point brought up what was on his blog, that we had committed “big crimes,” that we had “big sins” and that we knew what they were. He said he had to get off the phone. Renata said it was obvious he didn’t even know what OSA had written about us under his name. That it looks like he’s the one accusing us of these things. And I asked him if he knew how OSA had been attacking us and fair gaming us. But he kept making excuses about having to get off the phone.

“I have to go. Please don’t call me at this number again, it’s a work phone,” he said. We told him he could call us any time, that our phone numbers had not changed. He said he loved us, and that he just hoped things went well with us, and that he was carrying on. Renata had the last word, and she said, “May the force be with you.”

We had to ask Claudio — did Renata really end it that way, “May the force be with you,” like from ‘Star Wars’?

“Yes, she did! What could she say? We were feeling happiness and sadness. It was sort of saying good luck in way that was real to him,” Claudio said.

After we heard from Claudio, we checked Flavio’s blog, and he — or his handler — had posted something of his own about the phone conversation…

Just the other day, in a strange way (I would almost say it was a miracle) I found myself on the phone with my mom and dad! It was about 14:30 (American time) on Thursday, I was in Cincinnati (Ohio, USA) and the phone in my office was ringing. I was pleased to hear from them after so long.

They were both good, and I took the opportunity to tell him how much success I’m having, and how much success I’m having practicing what I know to create a better world. I will never cease to be grateful to them for introducing me to Scientology, and for bringing me into the Church. They know that I love them very much and I have never [blamed] them. What we said it’s just between me and them and will always be ours, even after many thousands of kilometers away.

There’s only one thing I want to say about in my blog, so that it is clear for those who do not know me. I asked my parents to stop telling people all those bad things on the Internet, because it is something that bothers me. I really hope that they understand … I’d like someone one day bring me the news that they are not saying so many bad things about who I am and my Church. Hello mother, hello father.

— Flavio

We hesitate to make much comment about these exchanges. We’re sure Claudio and Renata are going over what they said and second-guessing themselves about the best thing to say after not hearing from Flavio in six years.

We know that they are grateful that they even had this opportunity, an opportunity that so many other families don’t get. We can see things in their exchange that must hearten them, and others that must discourage them.

We’d like to hear from other disconnected families and from the experts. If you had only a few minutes to speak with your lost Scientology family member after several years, what would you say?

 
——————–

Bonus items from our tipsters

The Atlanta crew is heading out to push Dianetics on the world!

 

 
How many of those Atlanta folks know that the book they’re pushing contains this passage?

 

 
——————–

 
HowdyCon 2017: Denver, June 23-25. Go here to start making your plans.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on January 30, 2017 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

The Best of the Underground Bunker, 1995-2016 Just starting out here? We’ve picked out the most important stories we’ve covered here at the Undergound Bunker (2012-2016), The Village Voice (2008-2012), New Times Los Angeles (1999-2002) and the Phoenix New Times (1995-1999)

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Juicer77

    So glad you talked to Flavio. I hope he really heard what you were saying. Much love to the Lugli family – all of you!

  • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

    I hope Claudio and Renata have planted a seed. At least he knows now that if he runs, he has someone to call.

    May your family be back together soon Lugli’s. ❤️

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    I watched ‘The Emerald Forest’ from 1985 yesterday. I hadn’t seen it for over 20 years. It’s about a young boy taken from his family by natives in the rain forest of Brazil. The father spends all his free time for the next 10 years trying to find his son.

    The plot of the movie is almost like disconnected parents or children trying to get in touch with their loved ones in the jungle of scientology, not knowing where to look, and spending painstaking hours wondering how they are doing and what they are up to. It’s a good movie – scientology is not.

  • My heart was pounding as I read read the conversation.

    (edit: error fixed)

    • Juicer77

      Mine too! It’s so tense and we’re not even part of the family. 🙁

      • Our hearts are beating in unison with the Lugli family.

    • Robert Eckert

      I was wondering about that sentence too.

    • Tony Ortega

      That was a bit mangled by Google translate. I made a fix.

      • Roger that.

      • OOkpik

        – – –

  • DexterSka

    It’s sad really. We get so little time in this life and Scientology takes it from you. Rather than building a career and spending time with your family, you sleep on an old mattress and live your life based on the rules in complicated books like the worst game of D&D.

    • chukicita

      “like the worst game of D&D” – LOL! But at least with D&D you get to stop playing and live when you choose to.

      • DexterSka

        True, it’s like religion with a safe word.

      • DexterSka

        I may be just a low level central files guy, but a trillion years ago I was Galacton Barrelchest, shirtless space warrior of freedom!

        • ze moo

          I was Stanley Tweedle.

          • DexterSka

            I think we knew each other. Where did you go to telepathic martial arts college?

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Fian cut his 7th tooth last week so his big brother,
    in a curious symmetry, lost his 7th tooth last night at dinner.
    The excited rush into the kitchen, yelling to his mom!

    When I finished reading to him from our “Chapter Book” at bedtime,
    I was tired, ready for sleep and forgot about the Tooth Fairy.
    Fortunately my wife woke me at 4 to ask if I had taken care of it.

    May Flavio have a visit from the Truth Fairy, following this exchange
    with Renata and his dad.
    The thought of being severed from either of my boys shakes me.
    I can’t imagine the hurt.

    Disconnection enshrines all that is wrong about $cientology.
    It is a pernicious evil.
    My love and hugs to all of you who are sundered from family by it.
    There will be light at the end of this tunnel.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/853e2db134934652a1afa1367d910ce24e2afc71de14674af2be9602ea3f0a38.jpg

    • DexterSka

      People have such a strong bond with their kids. It’s hard for me, a 28 year old non parent to fully understand.

      • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

        It was at 28 that I first got pregnant, I didn’t fully understand either then. When they day comes that you have your own child/children, you will. ; ) It becomes part of the fiber of your being to love and protect them. Making the things Scientology does that much more horrific and heartbreaking.

        • DexterSka

          It seems like that’s the point Leah Remini’s show hits hardest. It felt almost out of place when I first saw it. Before this point, it was not the main thing that most specials talked about.

      • SarahDB

        The moment my newborn son was placed into my arms, I felt this rush and in that moment became a mom. It surprised me, and has only grown deeper and stronger over the years. I would literally die for my children, strongest bond in my life.

        • DexterSka

          It’s something that is easy to underestimate. I feel that society forgets just how much parents love their children.

        • Dylan

          Right!

          Scientology can fix the wogish flaw. So disgusting.

      • Franklin Adams

        I didn’t get it til I had a kid. Its not something that can be rationally explained by logic, it just is.

        • Kestrel

          How’s your hand? If you provided an update, I missed it.

          • Franklin Adams

            The update’s at the bottom of my first post today. Just a sprain, but it hurts so I took a week off work to try and take it easy.

    • salin

      ^^applause and echo the sentiments to families^^

    • Renata Fruscella Lugli

      “Disconnection enshrines all that is wrong about $cientology.
      It is a pernicious evil.” This is true!
      hank you for your love Panopea

  • TexasBroad

    Thank you tipster! It’s a really great thing that you did there.

  • Michael Leonard Tilse

    It’s a change. It’s a beginning. It’s that connection from heart to heart that came before, exists and will continue, now strengthened to a live present pull toward reunion.

    He knows you haven’t given him up. YOU Claudio and Renata are still there, still connected. Who knows the power of this, but I sense it has made a change and opened something for the future.

    So glad you were able to speak with him and give him your love.

    • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

      The fact that Claudio and Renata figured out how to get the right telephone to call to get to him, shows to him that he is REACHABLE, even from the outside world.

      Important, are the details of getting the right phone numbers, so parents can call right through to their family inside the Sea Org, bypassing the normal blocks.

    • Renata Fruscella Lugli

      Grazie Michael

  • Observer

    May this nightmare be over soon for everyone affected by it.

    That’s all I’ve got.

  • TooDangerous2

    This is a new spin on disconnection. They are now trying to turn it around and say that the exscientoligists are the ones who disconnected. It’s a BS move to try to help scientology with their PR. I have experienced this new spin in my own family. It’s amazing how distorted their thinking can become. They seem to truly believe their lies.

    • BeezleBobby

      I’m not sure that it is new. I think that disconnection has always been framed by the Church as a natural response to a destructive action taken by an SP. Thus the cult member never thinks of him or herself, or the church, as the initiator of the disconnection, it is always, always caused by the SP. That’s how church members can rationalize cutting contact with their own families.

      • Robert Eckert

        A line from a Jerry Pournelle story, “Terrorists always say ‘Look what you made me do!’ “

        • FredEX2

          That is exactly what people who abuse say too. Terrorists, abusers, Scientology.

      • TooDangerous2

        True, but until recently scientologists knew they were the ones disconnecting. In recent years they seem to be convinced that the disconnection is reversed. Of course they’ve always felt the person leaving scientology was at fault and caused them to have to disconnect.

    • Juicer77

      Sorry to hear this, 2. It really sucks.

    • Ben Franklin

      It is not new. If you look back you will find out, for example, that Mike Rinder’s family claimed that it was Rinder who abandoned and disconnected from them, not the other way around. I remember seeing a statement by Rinder’s daughter claiming that her father abandoned her and her brother, or something of that sort.

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      That’s the whole basis for Lyintology.

  • “I’d like someone one day bring me the news that they are not saying so many bad things about who I am and my Church.”
    His information flow is being restricted and controlled.

    • DexterSka

      I hope one day people will stop being jealous of how awesome I am.

      • Your wish has been granted.
        With retroactive effect.

  • Sejanus

    Flavio, open your mind.
    If you feel guilty or bad over speaking to your family ask yourself why.
    You follow counsel from a leader who isolated his wife so he could play around.
    If a stranger comes between you and your blood, that is a terribly unhealthy and damaging association to have.

    Flavio be strong, choose the love of family over lies, isolation, hatred and mistrust.
    Staying where you are to have your life and free will sucked away is not helping the world.

    You are stronger with family than without them.
    Call them and let them help you regain your humanity.

  • Chee Chalker

    Claudio committed a HIGH CRIME in Scientology. He revealed Miscavige’s real height as 5’1.
    The sad thing is, it’s not even a joke.
    If your leader bans you from speaking to your family for revealing his real height…..you may be in a cult.

    Some enterprising ex-Scientologist could do a whole Jeff Foxworthy routine with the “…..you may be in a cult” catchphrase.

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      Let’s call it a LOW CRIME. Sorry. Couldn’t resist.

  • chukicita

    I’m so glad they got to talk, and that Flavio got to hear, in that short conversation, that his family has never given up or abandoned him; that his parents love and miss him; and that his parents believe that it is okay to disagree, but disconnection is too extreme for simple disagreement.

    I wonder if it gets to Flavio, the way I know it would get to me, that an organization is putting words in his mouth about his family, and posting them publicly on the internet without his being able to vet them.

    • Franklin Adams

      As pointed out above, there’s obvious cracks in the control going on here. That very well may have been the push that Flavio needed. There are seeds of doubt planted here, and that conversation was hopefully like water, sunlight and miracle gro.

  • FredEX2

    I would say

    “I love you so much. I miss you so much. My number is the same. I am here for you always any time, day or night. Please call me. My door, …my heart and my arms…are always open and waiting for you. You can scream and shout at me. You can be angry. You can blame me. You can say everything you feel…or nothing at all about the past if you choose…and we can start again and go forward from now on. It doesn’t matter as long as we are at least communicating with one another. Someday you will figure out the truth. You can ask me anything when you are ready and I will tell you whatever you need to know to help you understand what really happened. Or you can choose to never ask. I love you without condition. You can hate me with all your might…but I will never stop loving you in a billion years. I am the same Mommie you know in your heart. I am here. Always.”

    In fact that is exactly what I said.

    I have not heard my daughter’s voice nor seen her nor hugged her or touched her since 2007. But I feel her spirit and have a connection with her that nothing can ever break….no matter what…and no matter where she is….something that only a parent understands.

    • April

      “I love you without condition.”

      This is perhaps the most important thing you can say.

    • Xique

      You are such a wonderful mother, I hope she’s back in your arms one day soon. Sending love out to you right this minute. You deserve it. I have daughters too, how lucky am I that they never got caught up in this nightmare like their folks. Small miracle.

    • joan nieman

      That is beautiful Fedx2. I hope that day comes for every one soon. Love is a strong force.

    • Lousy Ratatouille

      I think there are no better words to say to your daughter. Your story makes my eyes water. I hope that you’ll have your daughter back with you very, very soon.

    • LeeAnneClark

      This broke my heart. I remain hopeful that you will someday have her in your arms again.

    • beauty for ashes

      <3 <3 <3 (((((squooooshy hugs)))))))) I admire you so much for this. **sniffles**

      • FredEX2

        Thank you Beauty. Such sweet hugs.

    • Jenyfurrrrr

      Instant Tears for me Fred… it was beautiful and she’s blessed to have a mother like you! I hope and pray for the day she recognizes that and comes running back
      To come sooner than later! Xoxo

      • FredEX2

        ((❤️))

    • OOkpik

      To you, FredX, and all of you who never give up on your loved ones and keep their paths home brightly lit. ((Hugs))

      “Even
      after
      all this time
      The sun never says to the earth,

      “You owe me.”

      Look what happens
      with a love like that –
      it lights the whole
      world.
      — Hafiz (Sufi poet – 1300 AD)

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/35084c70041eb740e486b5a61acaa2518b8e2607a46b3fc1dd07868af9d44c8a.jpg

      • FredEX2

        Beautiful. Thank you for this. ❤️

    • daisy

      Hugs and prayers

    • Sine qua non

      Wahhh! 😧😧 Beautiful. Love is the answer, y’all.

  • Sunny

    There is a lot to be said on the subject of disconnection.
    Sadly, it is not a matter of picking up the phone and talking to your loved one, when it is a Scientology disconnection.
    Even though I have been SP declared since 2004, I have managed to get in tons of messages to my (Sea Org, disconnected) mother, both directly and indirectly.
    Disconnection runs much deeper than just conversation. The disconnection, sadly, is there, until the person themselves decide to stop it. And that takes undoing the mental trap of Scn.
    But there is hope. There is always hope.
    In the 2 decades that I was in the Sea Org, I spent much time on the subject of handling the staff welfare (auditing/training). Deep down in their hearts, they miss their family, and they really don’t want to be disconnected. They want their family to fix things so they CAN be back in touch. Sadly, this is a big problem. You cannot force religion on someone. Because someone has decided Scn is not for them, it punishes the family. Many of these staff are upset about not being able to be in touch with their family, but still, LRH said so.
    The point of disconnection in Scn is to push the suppressive person to want to do the A to E steps to get back in good standing.
    I say any chance you have to get in a message of love, do it. It may take time, but be ready, any time for them to wake up and pick up the phone. It has happened lots of times too.

    • Observer

      Are people who do A to E ever really back in good standing, or are their “transgressions” constantly thrown in their faces?

      • Sunny

        I hate to sound mean, but I think the question is, “are there really people dumb enough to do A to E?”.
        I know of a few people who got back in good standing after SP declare. It was not really thrown back in their faces, but there was always kind of an attitude that those people had to work twice as hard as everyone else. Just because.
        It’s kind of like they are on pins and needles.

        • Juicer77

          These days the word seems to have certainly gotten around “inside” that even doing A to E’s will not rehab you in the eyes of the Cherch of $camatology. You will always be damaged goods.

        • Dylan

          Yes, yes there are.

      • OOkpik

        In Scientology forgiveness is called “amends” and it’s a life sentence.
        The A to E is just a highly profitable and nasty means of control.

        • harry

          Right.
          Being in “good standing” is a temporary state at best.
          You are simply borrowing it – for now.
          DM, or whoever, can take it back –
          whenever they want,
          for whatever reason they feel like,

      • Dylan

        Short answer is no. Anyone who has spoken out will have a even harder road back. I did most of my A-E steps years ago, before making the huge mistake of doing an artical here, in an attempt to be allowed to communicate with my father. Lots of problems arose due to where I had been posted etc. I did have most of them approved but a few points looked like there was no real road to complete them in the churches eyes. So it was just left incomplete on the amends side. I was told I could not do amends to the church and had to do ammends in the community.

        The strangest thing is I was still not allowed to have any communication with any other scientologists except for the IJC or the D/IJC for Resto. I had writing “good roads letters” to my family but they were never delivered. After a while I just gave up with trying to get back in good standing so I could talk to my family.

        • Observer

          I’m so sorry, Dylan. I hope your family wakes up soon.

          • Dylan

            Don’t be. It might sound like I’m this stupid pos and that might just be the case but this is what has happened in my life. Instead of feeling powerless when It comes to this topic. I speak what I know when it arises, even at risk to myself and the one thing I personally want. I know this pain and can live with it. What is upsetting to me are the families that are good and do not deserve this. That is why

            • Observer

              You are neither stupid nor a POS.

        • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

          Hi Dylan, I’ve mentioned to Melissa Paris that you would like to get in touch with her. If you don’t have a Facebook account you can use to contact her, I would be happy to pass on your email address to her 🙂

      • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

        Some try to get back, when I was in the Senior HCO International branch, countless “biggies” (a former Class 12, a former Gold Base Treasury Secretary) tried to do their A to E steps, and both were refused, on whim, and because of LRH’s wrath against them.

        So in times, it is Hubbard who refused to give forgiveness, to a certain bunch.

        To the ex Int Base staff, there is the Hubbard standing order that people who leave the Int units are to be declared SP, automatically.

        Hubbard’s rules, his scathing wish to never allow some people right to do his glorious crank spiritual therapy and crackpot dead-alien-soul-exorcism really gets back to Hubbard being so delusionally proud and certain of his crazy lineup of crackpot crank pseudo-therapy, its like the an adult version of the child temper tantrum, turned into rules and regulations that the movement members are now living out Hubbard’s child temper tantrums.

    • Claudio Lugli

      Yes as you wrote : And that takes undoing the mental trap of Scn. This is what he is into. Eventually he will wake up … we still wait for HIS phone call….

    • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

      “…. The disconnection, sadly, is there, until the person themselves decide to stop it. And that takes undoing the mental trap of Scn. ,,,,”

      a person in the Sea Org has to be beaten up enough with enough injustices to weigh life is more hopeful outside the Sea Org.

      Then they start their planning to get out.

      Injustices, irrational unfair, unrealistic, out-of-tune with the outside world realizations, add up.

      Time is against the Sea Orgers.

      Do you remember the Sea Org “turtle” condemnatory reference of Hubbard about the Sea Org members who take the easy route jobs?

      Well, all the easy route taker staffers are the “turtles” and the pressures to live long in the Sea Org is to get on a job with simply job stability (turtle-ability).

      The ones who get the tough impossible jobs and get treated irrationally and unjustly of course decide to get out.

      They are the lucky ones, and they don’t know it, and it takes time to unwind from all those false layers of Scientology’s condemnation and blame of those that quit.

      It’s a painful process to go through.

      Sea Org turtles are who survive the longest. (And add the top clique of sycophants to the top banana cult dictator, that top clique of sychopants are a unique bunch in this Scientology cult.)

    • Disconnection is sustained by social pressure, applied in an isolated
      environment,. If that fails, there is always the threat of punishment to enforce the policy.

      Disconnection functions to ‘protect’ Scientologists from gaining a wider perspective on the world, because
      that might lead them to see how so many Scientology concepts are just
      daft and contradictory on the face of it.

      What impressed me about the exchange in today’s article is the way that that Flavio has unquestioningly assimilated the basic idea behind disconnection – that communicating with someone of whom the CofS does not approve is very bad for everyone. None of the coercive elements of Scientology practice seems to be necessary in his case.

      His situation is a perfect example of ‘the prison of belief’. Sending him to. ‘ethics’ seems to be unnecessary -or at least, the implied threat of is enough to motivate him to isolate himself, and believe, at some level, that he is doing the right thing.

      His is doing it to himself.

      Why did he dissemble so much, on the ‘phone? Either that belief is quite fragile when the real world intrudes, or he fell back on his Scientology ‘training’ to deal with it.

      I suspect that people like this will not leave until the delicate balance that they have struck between the pressures that are being put upon is broken – probably when the demands of the CofS on their time and money become totally unreasonable. They have reached an accomodation with their ramshackle version of reality, and as long as they take the CofS and Scientology seriously, that delicate balance can be maintained for some time.

  • Bert Allen

    Very interesting. No request in the blog that his parents not contact him again and no recriminations. Sounds like a crack in the wall of disconnection, since the blog is clearly controlled by OSA.

    • dchoiceisalwaysrs

      Weird = cognitive dissonance due to the light of love getting in to Flavio.
      It is okay to doubt Flavio. Look far and wide. Like Hubbard said, all he was trying to get anyone to do is look. And auditor does this all the time. Who is restricting you from looking? Auditors are supposed to be well trained to locate and confront the ” entheta. It is required to resolve the case. How can you get anything but roller coaster if you rabbit from exact time place form and event.
      Communicate some more, openly and give all of this a full confront. Don’t not-is.

    • Juicer77

      Yes, that is interesting. Trying to soften the public image for PR purposes? Goes right along with the lines of Mismanage’s New Year’s 2016 “magazine” that had “actual” numbers (inflated lies as they were) instead of the usual “47x” garbage. Especially since these numbers might be thought to reflect how much “public benefit” the Co$ provides in the eyes of the Internal Revenue Service. It’s still all lies, but it’s more normal sounding. If they’re now worried about protests against their tax exemption, this move is completely predictable. http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-lies-new-years-edition/

      IMHO this is direct evidence that the critical community has the power to make the Co$ jump.

    • MarcabExpat

      Yeah, who knows who posted that last entry, but it deliberately steered clear of hostility. Really unusual. If it was Flavio, it speaks for itself, if it was someone else, they may be taking care not to push him too hard if he sees the post.

  • Draco

    Bitter sweet… I am so glad they got a chance to speak to him and that he did not cut the call immediately.
    “If you had only a few minutes to speak with your lost Scientology family member after several years, what would you say?”
    I am neither a disconnected family member nor an expert, but I would probably say that I have told no lies on the internet, only the truth, and if the truth sounds like bad PR for the church, then maybe the church should do something about the way they treat people. And then I would tell him family news, and ask for his news, and tell him repeatedly that I love and miss him and will always be there for him no matter what. If that was a cell number, I would send him photos of the family and friends outside.

    • DexterSka

      So does the question imply that you will never speak to them again or is it a chance to get them back? Jefferson Hawkins wrote a great article about how to handle people in the Sea Org that should be part of the SP Bible should our messiah ever tabulate one.

  • Richard

    If I had five minutes to talk to a loved one disconnected from me I would have said the same things that Claudio and Renata said. There is no point in small talk. You’ve got to get immediately to the important things. It might be the only chance you have to say these things.

    What is very encouraging is the fact that Flavio didn’t put the phone down after the first question. I bet you anything he is thinking hard now about where the real truth lies. If Flavio actually didn’t know about “his” blog, well you can be sure he knows about it now. And that, for sure, will disturb him. Also, if Miscavige gets Flavio sent in to ethics for talking to his parents, again this will make Flavio think hard.

    Hopefully the seed of doubt has been planted and we all know that even the smallest seed can grow in to a tree.

    • Yeah, I thought they did quite well considering the circumstances.

    • Claudio Lugli

      You wrote:
      What is very encouraging is the fact that Flavio didn’t put the phone down after the first question.

      I realized that he did not out the phone down because this was something he was drilled to do. This I guess is an OSA operation from the beginning and OSA is directing the show. They are scared shit because DISCONNECTION is what is making their PR smell like a rotten mouse …. Leah Remini and Mike did an amazing job witht the documentary and they KNOW there will be a second run…. guess who will be in it???!!!!

      • Mary

        Bingo. Exactly. And I truly pray that Leah gets a second season and that they do as brilliant a job of staying on point. (It’s about the abuses – not the beliefs.)

        • Claudio Lugli

          Leah will get her second and possibly a third season and the abuses will be exposed
          We are not selling our souls to the devil

  • Here’s hoping Flavio will go find out what is on the net as being said by himself. If he finds it is not true that he said it himself that will only help to wake up.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    Congratulations. We can’t expect to tell any Scientologist something negative about their cult and have them say, “Oh, yeah. Now I get it. I’ve wasted a lot of time but now I am out of here”. That’s just never going to happen. But you showed patience and maybe something you say will stay with him. I love that Bogart line from Casablanca, “Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of your life”.

  • FredEX2

    I am sure Flávio had to be careful with what he said in that phone call with his parents, bc calls in or out are usually monitored by Scientology. All that ‘freedom’ they talk about in Scientology…there isn’t really any. One should definitely be able to freely communicate with family without outsiders interfering, coaching or listening in.

    The Luglis had such limited time and I’m sure with all the rush of emotion at the moment things just tumbled out. The most important thing is they all said ‘I love you’ to one another. It’s something Scientology cannot change even if the opposite seems true. There is a bond between parent and child that is very strong. I am sure that Flávio must be thinking of his parents and missing them all these years too. I think the phone call between them is a hopeful sign.

    • Sunny

      I hope, I really hope, that all disconnected family are able to get in touch… we wait and hope for that day.
      I just wanted to note that not all phone calls in Scn are monitored. Especially because this call was in Cincinnati, not at a Sea Org base, it gave him a chance to talk.
      He would have, however, turned himself into Ethics Dept to talk to them about the phone call, and what, if any handlings would need to be done.
      I do find it odd that they would let him off Sea Org base when his family is negatively outspoken about Scn. Normally the person would not be allowed off Sea Org base.
      Is he out of the Sea Org working in Class V Org? What is he doing in Cincinnati?

      • Kestrel

        Maybe they have to because they’re running low on people.

        • Phil McKraken

          That’s what I was thinking. With shrinking staff, they must have to play whack-a-mole in filling empty spots where an actual, rather than a theoretical, warm bodies are needed on the org board. There’s a certain proportion of controllers (OSA, Ethics) to controllees needed in order to maintain discipline, and as a minimal number of menial jobs need manning just to “keep the lights on,” they may have fallen below that proportion. Expect more cracks, like that phone call, to appear. Little Davy may put his finger in the leak, but no help is coming, and the dyke will burst.

        • pluvo

          Miscavige is certainly watching his disconnection-hostages from prominent critics as the Luglis very intensely. Nothing is more important for that sociopath than to be as evil as possible to them (just remember Karen and her son Alexander) and to hit them were it hurts them most. DM doesn’t care about anything and anybody when he is on his vendetta.

      • FredEX2

        I didn’t think of that Sunny. But it’s true. What is he doing in Cincinnati? It’s not like it’s a big Mecca for Scientology. I found this article about a meeting held there about ‘Human Trafficking’ in 2013 where they claim a Special Agent from the FBI also spoke. Evidently there’s an Ideal Org in greater Cincinnati. And they ‘serve’ the ‘tri-state area’…which includes Indiana. https://www.google.com/amp/www.scientologynews.org/press-releases/seminar-to-counter-human-trafficking.html%3Famp%3D1?client=safari

        • salin

          o/t hahaha … “includes Indiana”. Sorry. Spontaneous reaction. Aside from some WISE veterinarian who has some kind of chain of clinics around Indianapolis, and a Narconon-ish clinic (I think) in SouthBend – this state seems to be pretty dead to Scientology. (Not that we don’t have other problems like electing the likes of Mike Pence as our Governor.)

        • Robert Eckert

          The Cincinnati Ideal Org is in Florence, Kentucky, which is better referred as “lesser” Cincinnati.

      • otviii2late

        What is he doing in Cincinnati?

        He could be on a tour or mission. As a high level auditor, he could be on a “rah-rah” tour to get staff recruits or public in to Flag for services. Auditors get flown in on tours to interview prospects and handle those with ARC breaks (disagreements) to get them back on board and contributing.

        He also could have been “fired” in on a mission to stay short term and boom the org. This has an end goal of hiring more staff, handing disagreements, getting public to buy services, working short term in the org to get it rolling or all of the above.

        However, what I find interesting is that if Flag can afford to send a high-level auditor to Ohio, a guy who can bring in $1,000 an hour auditing at Flag, it tells you how over-staffed the auditors are at Flag and that there’s a shortage of public. In the past, sending a top-level auditor out like this would have been completely unheard of.

        • Sunny

          My point is that up to 2004, when I was a C/S (who gives approval on Sea Org members being sent out on tours/missions/postings such as this), he would have NEVER been allowed to leave with parents speaking out about Scn.
          Something is up with him being in Cincinnati.

  • ONEpointONE

    Flavio eats beans and rice and doesn’t get enough sleep. But that isn’t what makes his life shitty. His life is shitty because he sacrifices a meaningful life for a big lie. He is NOT helping the world as he thinks he is. He is being made to justify unjustifiable things for bad reasons not good reasons. Hopefully that short talk with his parents planted seeds of discontent.

  • davegrille

    The disconnection policy is destructive in all directions .As the COS shrinks in size and becomes more crazy,chinks may open in the armor of disconnection.

  • moonnfire

    I came across an interview with a researcher named William Zabel (not the lawyer). He is not a Scientologist but his wife was. According to the story, he came home one day and his MIL and a few Scientology people were at his house and they told him his wife left. He has never seen or heard from her again. He searched for her for a really long time, even traveling to Argentina to try and see if she was at a compound there. The story is heartbreaking. The interview is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z0rOHhm58M. Maybe someone knows about his wife. It just made me so sad that they would disappear someone like this from their husband without any warning or anything

    • 9001

      I would take a large pinch of salt with anything said by someone who has been pushing the theory that the Columbine shooting was a false flag conspiracy.

  • Dave Reams
  • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

    “…… what would you say?….”

    I’d say, final phrase in such moments:

    “Time heals. You can always call us. “

  • Franklin Adams

    Sounds like the control’s slipping in Flavio’s case, give him some time and he’ll blow, I have a feeling.

    Its a pain in the ass but coming out of an environment of total control is time consuming. You see it with people who are incarcerated a lot, people in the Armed Forces too (lord knows I’m still adjusting and its been seven years), you don’t just jump back into a “normal” life because you’ve been conditioned away from normalcy. Its likely the same thing with a cult, especially one as controlling as the Cherch is to the sea ogres.

    O/T: I didn’t break my hand, I did sprain my thumb though, and it hurts like hell so I’m using some of my PTO that I never touch. I figure a week’s good enough. I heal fast.

    • Kestrel

      That’s good news. Thank you for the update.

      • Franklin Adams

        Of course. I would have been around yesterday but duty called.

    • April

      Glad to hear you didn’t break any bones. I thought for sure, looking at the pic you posted, that it was at least dislocated.

      • Franklin Adams

        The DO at the ER thought the same thing at first, he said it was the worst sprain he’s seen all year so far but ill be okay. Ranger candy (800 MG motrin, the Army runs off of it) and some painkillers and resting it and I’ll be okay.

    • Juicer77

      Ouch!! Hope your thumb is better soon.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Thank you for letting us know. It looked very painful so I am glad it is not broken.

      • Franklin Adams

        Yeah it hurts like hell still, but I’ve had worse. At least its not broken. I don’t do well with casts.

        When I was 16 I ran into a stop sign at about 45 on a scooter. My bones are hard to break, I only wound up with a hairline fracture, but they still cast it. Most uncomfortable summer of my life. Summers in Central Florida are rugged affairs anyway, with a cast it was ridiculous. Especially as I basically had to quit my job and my band for the summer, I mean I still went to practice and ran the PA but someone else was playing but I was broke and extremely unhappy about it.

        Its freaking hard to play bass when your fretting hand has a big wad of plaster around it. And its impossible to do nasty seafood prep work and dishwashing with a cast.

        • Free Minds, Free Hearts

          I can well imagine. But also we seem to bounce back easier at age 16!

          • Franklin Adams

            Very true. When I got hurt in the Army I was certainly wishing I was 16 again. That 10 years difference equaled about 10 months extra healing time, and by then I’d been medboarded.

  • MarcabExpat

    What struck me about this call is how very long and drawn out and respectful it was, for a contact between a disconnecting SO member and his SP parents. Such calls are so often extremely brief and brutal, ending in a hangup shortly after the disconnector realizes who is calling.

    By comparison, this one was practically tender. Flavio didn’t hang up on them, didn’t angrily confront them, didn’t give them a nasty, brusque ultimatum. He didn’t say “never call me again” but “could you please not call me at this number again,” which is a much different tone. He could have broken it off, but instead he allowed them to go over the same ground again and again, even when what they were asking made him uncomfortable. It seems plain to me that he was drinking in the sound of their voices.

    And while he stands firm in the choices he’s made, he even finds a way to express a connection by reiterating his thanks for getting him into Scn originally. That must have felt like a knife twist when they were hearing it, but my point is that instead of being accusatory, he’s finding something positive to say (by his standards). He doesn’t want to push them away.

    And then there’s the blog post: it’s amazingly tender, all things considered. Never stern or condescending, it openly expresses his love for them. It admits he was delighted to hear from them, even though they’ve committed big crimes, and gives them credit for tracking him down. It’s practically stealth-praising them.

    The underlying tone of this entire episode is so different from that of the average reconnection attempt. It’s obvious he misses them deeply. Claudio and Renata, congratulations on reaching him, and I hope it will bear fruit down the road.

  • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

    “….. what would you say?,,,,”

    Really, seriously, this needs more thought.

    The problem is Scientology’s disconnection rationale and strict shunning rules and procedures are forcing Flavio no normal communication options.

    Jerry and Hana Whitfield, Bonnie Woods and Richard, Steve Hassan, all of their writings and advice are what I’d take were I the Lugli’s.

    It’s intractable institutionalized enforced Scientology shunning.

    It has to get bad enough for the person inside Scientology to decide finally it’s not their fault, and it’s Scientology’s problems, and decide they’ve had enough injustice from Scientology’s group behaviors and eject on their own.

    …….

    “Time heals. If you someday see things we see, we are always here. Please call us to say hello. We’re here and still love you.”

  • ze moo

    Claudio and Renata Lugli said the right things and stated their case very well. Now, if only Flavio heard. Most clams in his position have the blinders on real tight and don’t see or hear anything remotely ‘bad’ about the CO$. That Flavio is in Cincinnati is a very good thing. He is not directly under the Niblet’s thumb and while it appears his handler is very close, he does have the ability to think and feel for himself.

    The quick turnaround on the blog comment is a very good sign of close supervision. Someone is very afraid of the Luglis and is making it their personal ‘stat’ to mess with them. Stay strong Luglis, no one’s blinders are on that tight.

    Dianetics was always an unreadable stir of word salad and bullshit. Only someone who can be impressed with Lron’s false equivalency and straight out lies will be seduced by that crap. And at $24 a copy, they will get few takers. That is a lot of chicken nuggets…

    https://youtu.be/ZG06AnRsjlE?t=92

  • flyonthewall

    So he obviously didn’t write the blog and doesn’t even know what it says. OSA knows this situation is being talked about on the net for everyone to see and yet they still keep on with it, writing another blog post. Fucking with a grieving family’s head and twisting the knife just to be sadistic. This organization simply has no shame or even a shred of decency. The whole thing really makes my skin crawl.

  • Mockingbird

    What would you say ? Really, you need to know the individuals far better to have a good answer. Their individual relationships and issues are extremely relevant.

    In his excellent book Cults Inside Out Rick Alan Ross describes how he discusses the relationships between family members before a cult intervention occurs and how sometimes certain aspects of the family have to be worked on before an intervention is undertaken. This is because sometimes the probability of success is extremely low if the family members aren’t going to cooperate or if they are unable to overcome them.

    A family can have several issues to deal with. Sometimes another family member is ina different cult or may have substance abuse issues and the cult member may simply not listen.

    I think it’s a good sign when you can get a family member to have any positive contact. The potential for further communication is the root of a chance for improvement. Without that it is much more difficult to make any progress.

  • Mockingbird

    “Really, there is no problem in Scientology whatsoever.” This is the big issue. In my experience this is a thought stopping cliche.

    In Scientology you are taught all problems with Scientology are due to failure to correctly apply Scientology, lack of education on Scientology, misunderstood words, hidden evil purposes, suppression, restimulation, outside interference. It’s always not possible that anything in Scientology is wrong despite hundreds and hundreds of revisions and changes to Scientology doctrine and practices. A practice that always works and should never be altered being altered over and over is self contradictory.

    The destruction of a family for Scientology is an obvious failure but a Scientologist cannot conceive it. In defining a social and antisocial personality Hubbard defined social as helping good causes and harming evil causes. He defined antisocial as hurting good causes and helping harmful ones. He then defines suppressive as against Scientology and for causes against Scientology. He defines suppressive as equal to antisocial.

    So Scientologists learn to think helping Scientology is ALWAYS good and opposing Scientology is ALWAYS bad. It doesn’t matter what Scientology is doing. It doesn’t matter what anyone opposing Scientology is doing.

    So there is no problem with Scientology – if you think Scientology is always right and opponents are always wrong.

    Until a person escapes those deeply held assumptions and can look at Scientology without extreme bias it’s extremely unlikely they will escape Scientology.

  • Scientia

    “If you had only a few minutes to speak with your lost Scientology family member after several years, what would you say?”

    I’m ashamed to say that, at the peak of my obsession with this cult, I disconnected from 3 family members – including my own mother. What’s worse is that it wasn’t even enforced by Ethics – it was entirely my own decision, free of any threat or pressure. I had gotten sooo angry – mostly at my own failure as a superbeing at “handling” her (ie. so she’d stfu about Scn and stop antagonising me something rotten). Any time the subject arose, I would automatically go into handling mode (incl. good roads/good weather) with the knowledge that SHE was the one brainwashed (by the media, anticult organisations, other family members, her local vicar, etc). I do remember thinking to myself at the time, “If she really believes I’m in a cult, why the eff does she keep telling me I am?!” So first rule, imho, don’t antagonise. Don’t assume the position of someone that must be “handled”. Don’t be the angry, monstrous SP they’ve been indoctrinated into believing you are. Overwhelm them with love. End of. It will help to alter their perception of you. They will remember. I can’t say it would have brought about any instant results, but I know it would have had a significant effect on me.

    For example…

    It breaks my heart that you’ve chosen not to communicate with me anymore. I know we’ve had some very different experiences – experiences that have ultimately shaped our views – but I hope you can still find a place in your heart to communicate with me all the same, grant me beingness, without hate or intolerance, because I love you so much, you’re my ______ and I miss you more than you’ll ever know.

    I have no interest in enturbulating you, no interest in forcing my beliefs down your throat. I respect your personal integrity and the choices you’ve made and I really hope you can do the same for me. Just because people have different experiences does not mean, and should not mean, they can’t communicate with eachother. That would be a very cruel and very sad world to live in, if so.

    Please don’t be a stranger. I love you so much. I’m so proud of you, I hope you know that. There’s not a day that goes by when I don’t think about you. We have so much to catch upon. I really want to hear about what you’ve been upto and all your adventures. Perhaps one day, soon, you’d be open to seeing me. Even if it’s just for a little while. I can cook us a/we can go out for _______ (favourite dish) or something. Or maybe see _______ (close friend or relative) , I know s/he’s always asking after you.

    You know where I am. You have my number. Call me sometime, will you? I’ll always be here for you, no matter what. No matter what other people might say, think or believe, no matter what pressures are brought to bear, nothing will ever change the fact that you’re my ________ and I love you. I’ll always love you. Never forget that, okay?

  • Mick Roberts

    Even though it doesn’t appear that Flavio is ready to reconnect at this time, hopefully this initial contact will at least get him to start thinking about his “missing family” in him own mind, with his own internal thoughts that CoS will never fully penetrate, no matter how much “sec-checking” they may do. It’s a baby step, but at least it’s a step.

    Perhaps I’m too much of an optimist, especially as a never-in who will never be able to truly and fully understand the mind-set that Scientologists experience, but I believe there is always hope of reconnecting with someone’s loved ones. I believe that Flavio (like many others who have disconnected from their loved ones) is a genuinely great person who is just temporarily lost in life. Here’s to hoping that he and others find their way home very soon.

    One day, I hope (and believe) that they will basically “wake up” and realize that their family are the only ones that truly care about their well-being as a person……and not just care about how much time and/or money they can provide to an uncaring, ungrateful, and abusive church with very large and expensive (but mostly empty) buildings and real estate.

  • KingofSweden

    That Hubbard quotation is creepy as hell.

    • Franklin Adams

      Yeah it is, but it goes to show you just how often the Clams read their book. Not that I could quote you Roman Catholic canon law backward and forward but anything that honestly fucking weird would probably stick out in my mind.

  • KingofSweden

    Sounds like there may be some cracks in Flavio’s wall of denial… I hope he keeps thinking about what his parents said and eventually gets himself out of this criminal enterprise!

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Il sangue non e acqua
    Or in English, “Blood is thicker than water.”
    David Miscavige is thicker than either.

    I have a sad feeling that this is an attempt to head Renata and Claudio off at the pass.
    Make nice, talk nice, don’t give the appearance (in an Italian language blog) that
    disconnection is as vicious as it truly is.
    Once Leah’s shows are translated into Italian by the Luglis and widely seen there, the
    $cientology “continent” of Italy will experience seismic upheaval.

    “La famiglia” is important everywhere, but, in Italy, it is beyond sacred.
    Flavio, blood is thicker than Kool-Aid too.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c8475e62d6936037aecc563ecaac90dc396a598b65f66e581d030c85ec045cec.jpg
    Figghi fai, mariti truovi, frate e sore nun truovi mai
    You can have children, you can find a spouse but brothers and sisters cannot be found anywhere

    And, for all those who chose $cientology before family
    Chi vai a letto con i cani, si leva con le pulchi.

    DM and his cult, in persisting with disconnection, are holding black Aces and eights:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7083c5e782e058a6e73a1967a9e731979688aaace38c76e9128f4a939be72ed6.jpg

    • Dave Reams

      Davido Miscavicce shoudda dormi con Pesci (preferably the one from Goodfellows)

    • Dave Reams

      “Factio vestri aevum, non vestri calceus amplitudo”
      – Paul Beatty, “The sellout”

  • scnethics

    I think pushing the point about why they couldn’t communicate freely about their different ideas was very good. The next time Flavio is having a bad experience in scientology, he’ll think about that. Also, just the fact that they tracked him down and let him know they were always there when he needed them was great. This was a big victory for their family!

  • Newiga

    Oh wow… I cannot even image how it felt to get to talk to Flavio again. I almost bit my nails to the bone as I was reading on. *sigh*

  • kemist

    If Flavio does not know about OSA’s activities, how did that post suddenly appear on the blog after that conversation ?

    • Observer

      He probably turned himself in to ethics, as someone (Sunny? Dylan? Too lazy to look) said below.

    • Franklin Adams

      Because he likely filed a KR immediately. The OSA goons know that to preserve OPSEC and Plausible Deniability, they’d have to say something that pays heed to it.

      Its like when we bomb some high ranking terrorist in Afghanistan or Iraq and the Taliban or AQ or whoever rush out a audio tape trying to prove that we didn’t actually kill who we killed, like with Mullah Omar, they stuck to the story that he was alive and running things for years after he’d died. They’d have done the same with UBL had the JCS and Presidency not made such a big deal of it, even going so far as to reveal a very classified airframe and our operating methodology for JSOC in the process. Same idea.

      • kemist

        Ah, yes, makes sense.

        God this cherch is creepy.

        • Franklin Adams

          Very much so. Its like when you take the worst things about organized religion, totalitarianism, paramilitary groups, the occult, and hypnosis, and stick em in a blender. With a delusional paranoia garnish.

  • Claudio Lugli

    What happened was really “amazing”…. and yes I was really happy to talk to Flavio and know he is physically well. The telephone call made me happy but very sad too. I did not see any change from when Flavio left 6 years ago, total non confront of what is actually going on in the church. He hides inside an unbreakable harmour made of “I am doing good, I am auditing, people gets better – the rest I do not care”, and this is probably stopping the massive confusion related to us, to the beatings, to all the rest of the abuses happening in scientology that HE KNOWS about since 6 years ago we told him everything. What he was saying was 95% coming from having been indoctrinated, no real feelings of joy, sadness, love, or anger. It was “Good roads good weather” galore. The only real message “he” was interested to get to us was “stop messing with my church and write bad things on the internet” – I will answer to “him” directly and we will see if “he” will respond…. or what. The first thing I want to say is: If you really love us we will pay you a ticket to Brescia and we can spend some real time togheter and go trough everything, that would be a change!

    • Techie

      Claudio, what he says is not what he is thinking. That is why he delays answering, the conflicts and doubts are screaming at each other in his head with enough cognitive dissonance to drown a whale. Don’t ever think that your loving and kind words have no effect. They do. He cannot just come out and say that you are right and he was wrong. It would shatter his whole world. But he is thinking, and that is the best result you can hope for at this point. At some point thoughts will become actions.

      • Claudio Lugli

        You are totally right and we do believe that something will affect his thinkingness and break tru the armor!

        • joan nieman

          I am so happy you have connected, even for a short time. You have placed that love in his heart and I know he will hold on to it.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      I hope and pray this is just the start. He will turn over in his mind what you said – and knowing Co$ they will do some lame brain thing that will backfire. He knows that if they say you don’t care, it is a lie, because you just called him and told him how much you love him.

      • Claudio Lugli

        Never stopped hoping that – but I do want to have Flavio at the other end of the discussion not an OSABOT

        • David

          Claudio ma mi chiedo se non sarebbe quasi una cosa da fare predisporre cabine del telefono portatili modello UK da mettere fuori dalle org cosi da permettere alle persone dentro di chiamare i loro cari. Magari Leah può nella seconda serie dell aftermath inscenare qualcosa del genere. Io abito a Sacramento posso coprire la org di qua e SF. Se uniamo le forze e Leah ci riprende con A&E allora si attira ancora piu attenzione sul problema della disconessione e magari si usa per fare una petizione da presentare ai politici locali per andare a parlare con i dirigenti delle varie org. Se c è una cosa che DM odia è la cattiva pubblicità e sarebbe da sentire anche Chris Schelton sulla possibilità di inscenare una cosa del genere su scala nazionale (usa)….

    • kemist

      Flavio is being used as “leverage” to manipulate you. As much as you love someone, it’s not helping them to let them manipulate you. I think one day he will realize how he has let himself be used for that purpose and will be ashamed of it.

      It might even be what makes him wake up. It looked to me that it made him quite uncomfortable already.

      • Claudio Lugli

        Yes it is sooooo low to use a son as leverage, but this is what is happening. Of course one day he will be ashamed. Just hope we will still be here for him when that happens.

        • Mary

          I cry and cry for you. This is so sad. Hugs to you and Renata.

    • Mary

      I am so sorry about what is happening with your son. It is so sad.
      You can bet that he was given the “okay” to talk to you as david miscavige is trying to prove that the church does NOT FORCE disconnection.

      • redfisch

        And you can also bet that the Cherch will be broadcasting that message soon. Maybe as a response to a second season of “Aftermath”?

    • chuckbeattyxquackologist75to03

      “….hides within unbreakable harmour ……”

      ….

      “…It was “good roads good weather” galore…..”

      My tip, use that back on him, and tell him, if he wishes only good roads, good weather, then remind him to apply the same policy and not put any demands on you both.

      Both sides, agree to “good roads, good weather” .

      Period, that is the outside world tolerant agreement.

      Let life educate him. He will be beaten up by the Scientology staff system over time. Then he will quit on his own.

      I am reminded somewhere I read in the Encyclopedia, that St. Thomas Aquinas or some other famous Italian Saint was 4 times attempted to be “deprogrammed/kidnapped” but St. Thomas went back every time to his church, his parents efforts failed.

      Your son I’m sure is no St. Thomas Aquinas obviously, but he needs to be beaten up by the Scientology system of injustice enough to wise up and quit on his own.

      He may have some cushy job without pressure and the really harsh predicaments, he might be on a simple job (simple for him, a job he is doing well at).

      Wait til he gets on some tough jobs! That is a GOOD thing to watch for.

      Since if he gets on really tough jobs, the pressures are untenable, and he has more chances to get blamed more, and more reason to quit!

      The outside world is pressure enough on Scientology overall. The world sees Scientology as a long term failing unrealistic totalitarian cult that is UFO delusional. Scientology has no chance on the glorious hype applause they give themselves, and eventually the members wise up and realize they are NOT doing the hype great things they claim. They start making mistake, and then their pressure system they start eating themselves to pieces. And finally quit when they see no sanity in their group anymore.

      Flavio will stick with them as long as life is easier there than out here.

      He’s riding on the group delusion.

      He needs to have some job failures, that’s a good sign he might be deciding to quit soon

    • LeeAnneClark

      I’m a never-in so I may use the wrong terminology, so bear with me…I assume he’ll have to be sec-checked or whatever because of this call. Certainly it was listened to by others. He may end up suffering some kind of punishment for it. But that could end up a good thing…somewhere inside him is the knowledge that nobody should be punished for love. Nobody should be punished for talking to the parents who gave you life. That could be the thing that ends up waking him up.

      I will keep hoping for that outcome.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Once the cult’s done using him for whatever it can get out of him and demonstrates its true colors in a way that can not be ignored, I’m sure that your son will be much more open to re-establishing a relationship with you. Most of us learn best only through direct experience, so if he’s not yet had the kind of negative personal experiences with the cherch that almost everyone is eventually subjected to, he will in the future, because the cult ends up dehumanizing and mistreating everyone that becomes involved with it at some point in time.

      The cult doesn’t love or care about him…indeed, it doesn’t love anyone or anything except money and power. It’s only concerned with what he can do for it, in terms of contributing cash or free labor to it. That simple realization will eventually dawn on him, like it does on almost everyone who gets involved with it. When it does, the fact that he still has a loving family to return to will be what matters most then.

      In the meantime, we’re all going to do our best to see that the cult is held to account for its many crimes and abuses, and that the number of new recruits to the cult slows to a trickle, then ceases entirely. Whatever that takes, and no matter longer how long we have to stick at it, there will be a time in the future that this killer cult is stopped from destroying individuals and families!

    • Xenu’s son.

      Claudio
      Do you know how is it going on the Italian subtitles of the aftermath?

      • Claudio Lugli

        We subtitle part of them and post them on our blog and rutube

    • OOkpik

      I admire your tenacity in trying to pry your son loose from the dangerous and deceitful world of Scientology and wish you every success. ((Hugs))

      One little thing experience has taught me – something like “Because we really love you…” might be emotionally easier for Flavio to assimilate than “If you really love us…” The latter tends to invite doubt where the first stems from a solid conviction.

      Having said that, I know the love in your hearts will guide you well.

  • Techie

    “There’s something happening here, but what it is ain’t exactly clear…” (Apologies to Buffalo Springfield). The web site looks and seems like OSA (Office of Special Affairs, Scientology version of the KGB), but what are they trying to do with it? Most of their web sites are just to have something to show to Scientologists to “dead agent” (discredit) anti-Scientologists. They are not meant for us and they don’t care what we think. So why the tone? If it is truly something created without OSA control or oversight, that would be bizarre in the extreme. It would certainly have been taken down by now. Then we have “anonymous tips” and a conversation between declared SPs and parents. The “anonymous tip” part stinks of OSA and so does the seemingly monitored call. But if so, what are they trying to accomplish? No positive evidence to back it up, and this may be just a will-of-the-wisp bit of fancy, but what if the tear-jerking heart-breaking A & E shows are having an effect and they are thinking of changing their tune? I don’t expect them to give up their iron grip or let the children free, but maybe they are experimenting with some kind of allowed contact just to get Leah and Sid off their backs. “You may say I’m a dreamer” (Apologies to John Lennon) They did cancel the forced abortions after the Tampa Bay Times article. They have changed their treatment of children to some degree. Maybe they think that by allowing parents some contact with their sequestered children that they can defuse the situation. If so, I predict that it will backfire big time. Let a crack of sunshine in, and the whole room lights up. Let a bit of love and kindness back into the lives of the hardened dedicated true believers and they will run to the sun in droves. Let it be.

    • Observer

      I think Miscavige just wants to torment the Luglis.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      “No positive evidence to back it up, and this may be just a
      will-of-the-wisp bit of fancy, but what if the tear-jerking
      heart-breaking A & E shows are having an effect and they are
      thinking of changing their tune?”

      That would be a wonderful thing and mark a real change in the way that $cn handles what has become its worst public image nightmare in recent times, due to Leah’s series, the “Call Me” Philboard campaign and efforts here and elsewhere to highlight the heinousness of their family-destroying Disconnection policy. Since the cult is under the dictatorial control of just one individual, change can be effected quickly and across the entire $cn world uniformly, if he so orders it. And in past, the cult has discontinued other horrible PR causing actions, such as forced abortions and the $ea Orgy cadet org, so change has occurred in the past and could occur again.

      However, the Disconnection policy was very clearly delineated by Elron and, in combination with his SP and Fair Game policies, constitutes Elron’s ultra-paranoid, merciless and “law unto himself” orientation to everyone on the planet that is critical of cherch practices or those who seek to uncover the truth about his almost completely fabricated personal history. So, instead of real and substantive change, what the OSA/Flavio site is more likely to represent is an attempt on the part of the cherch to appear as if they don’t enforce disconnection on still-in family members for PR purposes, rather than an indication of some sort of “moment of conscience” that lil davey went through after a moment of moral epiphany.

      Sociopaths don’t have moments of moral epiphany during which they reflect on their past actions as they’ve affected others; they only care about appearances and themselves. In response to some very obvious and heart-rending stories of families destroyed by Disconnection, the Cherch really didn’t have any countervening evidence to support their contention that a cherch member’s actions in disconnecting from family members are based on their own uncoerced decision to do so. Putting up fake or “ghost written” sites like the Flavio site enables the cult to point to something that, on its surface, seems to support their position on the issue. Of course it’s all bullshit which is easily seen through by family members and others who are familiar with the cult’s ham-handed methods, but that’s of no concern to lil davey + evil minions who have not real intent to reform their practices because they are correct in their appraisal of what that would result in. That is, a free and open exchange of information and communication with the outside world WOULD destroy the essential aspects of the cult’s mind control efforts.

    • pluvo

      “But if so, what are they trying to accomplish?”

      Maybe it is used to deadagent that the Luglis were not able to talk to their son for 6 years as of Leah’s series which is about disconnections is getting translated an will wreak havoc for the CoS’s reputation on a broad scale. They will say that the parents could talk to their son and that he is just cross with them because they are attacking his religion.

      • Techie

        Pluvo, that is an interesting thought. Maybe they already know or suspect that the Lulglis will be on the next season of “The Aftermath” and are already getting their ducks in a row.

        • redfisch

          Bingo!

    • sizzle8

      That blog is full of ‘other-intention’. Motorcycles, travel, holidays. It’s OSA.
      As you said, it may be a pre-emptive move to dead agent the Lugli’s should they be in an Aftermath episode. Maybe something to point the press towards.
      The blog wouldn’t be aimed at fellow SO members, staff or Scientologists. I doubt Flavio has non-Scn friends he wants to keep informed about his life.

    • To some extent, this is all the dead hand of L Ron Hubbard.

      Hubbard hated being questioned or contradicted, and his only response was to ‘get even’ in the cruellest way he could. Over the years, this approach was built in to the basics elements of Scientology doctrine and practice.

      To justify organising cruelty and persecution for ‘religious’ reasons the ‘tough guy’ culture, exemplified by the Sea Org, took hold.

      I think that, at this point, they can’t “change their tune”. They can only dissemble and muddy the waters in high-profile cases. They are trying to put the best face on a traditional attack without being able to modify disconnection at all.

      What we are seeing is an organisation which is ‘thrashing’. They don’t know what to do, because policy is not working. They have failed to defend the indefensible, but they can’t abandon it, either.

      It doesn’t help that the people who are improvising like this are so isolated from the wider world that they don’t know how to make a good impression there, either.

    • Canadian Girl

      There’s a crack in everything that’s how the light gets in. Leonard Cohen. Mike and Leah found the crack

  • Renata Fruscella Lugli

    I honestly have to say that I was very pleased to hear my son after 6 years, but I have to say as much that I was sorry when Flavio made us a very strange request by phone: I do not want you to write on the internet: I say “strange” because I know that Flavio can not go on the internet, how do you know what we wrote exactly? It is so obvious that OSA passes him communication altering it as they please in order to make us hate our son? Speaking to Flavio I realized that he did not know the ugliness that OSA has written about us on FB and Blogs created against us.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      I am so glad that you spoke, and that you were honest. He obviously wanted to talk to you – he did not hang up even though he kept saying he should! So you are doing the right thing even if it takes him awhile to wake up. It seems like everyone who leaves says that after they started to have doubts, it took months or years to really make that decision to leave. So every step you take to get him to talk a little, and for him to respond to your questions, is a step in the right direction. I pray he comes home soon.

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        Grazie!

      • Mary

        I hope this isn’t putting a damper on things, but you can bet big money david miscavige is “allowing” your son to talk to you.
        I once said to Leah/Mike; I don’t want just disconnection to end, I also want my reputation back with my son. The church is still not allowing your son to be connected and you can bet he has handlers watching him and making sure he doesn’t want to leave.

    • Stay strong, Lugli family. The “force” of Love is with you and you have more Jedis than you might realize on your side.

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        grazie

    • Juicer77

      Yes, this is truly amazing. It makes one wonder how much OSA has increased their stranglehold on information coming in and out in recent days.
      I am sure that your words are deep in Flavio’s heart. Just hearing your loving voices was a huge message to him.

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        Grazie

    • Mary

      He was given talking points and was also given the okay to talk to you. Of this you can be sure.
      I am so sorry about this Renata. I find it so heartbreaking. I don’t know what I would do if my son was allowed to talk to me but not really be connected to me. Beside the definition of “vile” in the dictionary is a picture of the church of scientology/david miscavige.

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        It was very exciting talking with my son at the same time I heard talking to one that is owned by Miscavige

    • The whole thing is strange. They attack you with strange, passvie/aggressive blog posts, written in Flavio’s name. But, they would surely know that you know that he’s not allowed to use the internet. Wouldn’t OSA know that this blog would make you suspicious? That you would speak out against it? That you would turn to Tony and that he’d report it?

      This either means that they have a super crafty plan that you, Tony and all of us Bunkeroos are swallowing whole, or they’re just incompetent. I vote for the latter.

      I also wish you and your wonderful family the very best, and a swift reunion. I think this crappy plan is backfiring already.

    • hemi

      Renata, Claudio,
      I am so happy about this comm!!!
      The communication is important and your theta and love have gone through. Do not worry too much about the script indoctrinated by OSA, let those robots script their lines, just keep the theta and comm, it sends huge messages stronger than the OSA intentions.
      It will prevail in the end!
      Love to you both!!
      Hemi

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    I think it is a huge success that Flavio did not hang up right away, and good for Renata to call him out on his hurtful statements about the family. It also seems like it was the “work phone” in Cincinatti Org? so that he answered it himself, without OSA listening in. I wonder if that is part of why he did not hang up right away. He really wanted to talk. In fact they would not have known about the call until afterward when he probably confessed it during interrogation. I like to think that the times when he paused or hesitated before answering were times when seeds of new information were being planted, to be pondered and come to life later. All in all this seems huge. And it seems like Flavio is in decent shape mentally. I hope this phone call is the beginning of the reunion they are sure to have.

    By contrast, last year when my family member called about something obviously very disturbing to Co$ that my brother had posted online, my brother knew that OSA was there – because there would be the type of pause when the phone was muted and when he came back, the answer sounded like Blinky… Ha! We imagined a couple of OSA people listening in and coaching him on what to say. And on another occasion of one of our extremely rare visits, when I asked my family member what seemed to be a simple question about his opinion on a hot issue in the news about Co$, he really and truly fell apart, looked me in the eye and said “If you say another word about this I will never speak to you again,” ran out and slammed the door, and when I tracked him down a few minutes later, he spent ten minutes or so sobbing, venting, saying that there were so many bad things said about his church that he couldn’t take it from his family also. His face was twisted and contorted and it really looked as though his brain as going to split open because of the dissonance between the fear of hearing something bad about his church, and the deep knowledge that there was something terribly wrong. I know that he is in bad shape physically (when he took his shirt off, the collar bone in front protrudes about 1.5 inches, and the knobs on his spine stick out like knuckles on your hand when you make a fist). Also he did say he had not slept much for the few days prior. So they are kept in a weakened and debilitated state and don’t have any reserves to cope with questions. Flavio is in much better shape, and that seems like a good sign.

  • Mary

    Wow. Well, looks like Leah’s show re disconnection is having an effect on david miscavige, The church’s talking points these days is that WE DISCONNECTED FROM THEM! If one watches the video that my son made at the behest of david miscavige (because, let’s face it, he’s the one calling all the shots in these matters), my son talks about how I (or his dad and I) disconnected from him. That I WENT DOWN THIS PATH that disconnected from him. Same path as Renata talks of. We read the internet and discovered our own truth and refused to go in and get sec checked, recant, do amends, etc. This was our path of DISCONNECTING FROM THEM. The church did not force this.

    Then there’s the video of my husband’s boyhood friend made explaining how WE DISCONNECTED and just to be extra vile, he told my son, Sam, about a child I had when I was 20 (pre-scientology) that I DISCONNECTED FROM. (This was a child that I allowed my ex and his new wife to raise and for her to even adopt because I didn’t have the emotional maturity or my shit together to raise him. My Life Repair was filled with my own grief and despair of turning this child over to be raised by someone else. Now this vile church had this boyhood “friend” explain how he had to tell my son (who won’t talk to me) that this was nothing new for me, I had DISCONNECTED FROM HIS HALF BROTHER, as well as Sam. Oh the irony for a religion that drew me in because of this was now using it against me 40 years later.)

    If anyone wants to show or see how vile this church really is, just watch Ben Kugler get giddy as he talks about this. It’s at leahreminiaftermath.com Go to the videos the church put up after my (Mary Kahn) show aired.

    It’s obvious that these talking points of how WE DISCONNECTED is just a way to try and get LRH’s/david miscavige’s followers to wrap their minds around this cockamamie twist on the church’s policy of disconnection.

    • Oh, Mary, what an awful coda to an already painful tale. They really are always worse than you think.

      • PerpetualOutflow

        I am so sorry for the immense pain they’ve caused you Mary. Thank you for continuing to share your story so the world can see the truth about this depraved organization.

    • salin

      Your words, are wise, heartbreaking – yet at the same time – almost reassuring ala: “We See You and What you are doing, DM – and the world is now seeing/hearing/reading your (DM/OSA) moves clearly.” You and all who have been willing to share your stories with Leah Remini’s Aftermath are making that clock “tick tock” a bit louder and a bit faster.

  • Joe

    Not to minimize the real pain and struggle that real people go through every day, but seriously I think almost every Scientology story could be made into a movie. I mean it’s that suspenseful and dramatic and engaging.

  • Looks like the Atlanta crew have attracted some unwanted assistance… ETA: I’d guess the girl in the slightly faded T-shirt with a different logo is staff, and is that JAW’s smarter brother standing next to her? (reconstruct the South one book-sale at a time):
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9e724c6ca7e750beeba007c06085aea603db1502d29cb4131d434bf085d2ad27.jpg

    • ze moo

      Any pig in Georgia is headed for the barbecue. Fly Snotimer, fly!!!! Love the Carol Burnett costume.

      • Not all pigs in Georgia can fly! 🙂

        • ze moo

          We call those pigs, dinner.

    • April

      Ha! I love the Carol Burnett Show/GWTW reference.

    • GoneToPlaid

      I do believe Miscavage has got the vapors

      • Well, clutch my pearls!

        • Draco

          And fiddle dee dee!

    • Graham

      “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn” could well be a Scientology motto.

    • Draco

      I suspect we are looking at all of Atlanta’s staff members – all 11 of them, plus the weird one who blew in with the wind…

    • MarcabExpat

      *unholy snortle*

  • This whole thing stinks to the Van Allen belts. It just doesn’t add up. Talking to Flávio wasn’t part of the plan, and the response indicates that they know they’ve been caught, but have to keep playing the game. It could be just isolated to the Lugli’s case. We’ll see if other disconnected family members start to have “blogs” that reek of forced, good roads, fair weather. It seems odd that they would create this Potemkin blog as a response to Leah’s show, which may never air in Italy. Of course, Tony has pulled up the rock they thought they were hiding under, and now they’re scuttling around, looking for cover.
    They have no idea what to do with the ferocity of a parent’s love.

    • April

      I believe the Luglis are taking part in translating the Aftermath series so that it can air in Italy. That has to be terrifying to the CO$.

  • Renata Fruscella Lugli

    The important point to say here is that OSA has used my son to silence us, to stop us to write on our blog. We report with translations in Italian the most important events that take place in America, as recently the television programs of Leah Remini. It is not the first time that OSA uses my son, it did it seven years ago to convince us to disconnect from our son Tiziano because he had left the “Church” and then they did it again six years ago when they sent him to our house to spy on us and report daily to OSA. OSA has not yet understood that we will not shut upinstead we will do it much more.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      Mille grazie per quello che stati facendo, Renata.

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        Grazie mille!

    • Mike Rinder

      Cheers to you Renata and Claudio. You persistence is admirable. Your strength is unassailable. And you have style that is the envy of stylish people everywhere. 🙂

      • Renata Fruscella Lugli

        Ciao Mike, grazie!

    • Juicer77

      Thank you for this important translating work!

    • MarcabExpat

      You and your family are brave and wonderful! Somehow I feel full of hope and encouragement that Flavio will join the rest of you 🙂

    • Newiga

      Ciao Renata! Mille grazie for the important work you do! *respect*

    • Mary

      You’re an amazing woman Renata. ((Hugs))

    • Peter Meier

      Dear Renata,

      Three days ago i got the same Mail of disconnction from a Son. The same wording accusing me to destroy the family and that we never had been a family and so on. The very same wording. It is directed from the OSA and SeaOrg. Their IAS mom is still a hardcore fanatic and uses this to keep the kids in control and blind and in Hate.
      So you are right to speak over it Openly and frankly. Wish you Good Luck.

      • ExCult.Jan

        Peter, so sorry to hear OAS has also targeted you and your son in order to benefit the organization. It is another travesty. Wishing you a strong heart and the return of your son.

      • Phoebequeen

        Wow. I am so sorry.

    • Phoebequeen

      As a mom too, I can not begin to understand how your heart has been broken. I am just glad you were able to actually talk with him and hear his voice. Maybe you stirred something in him. I wish your family all the best of luck in reuniting. Ciao. I also love Italy. It is a beautiful country with lovely, warm people.

  • Nice to hear of this communication …I would say just about what FredEX2 said which was wonderful…I love and miss you so much. How are you? and your husband? What have you been up to in your life? I am here for you always for you any time, day or night. Please call me..my heart and my arms…are always open and waiting for you. You can share everything you feel…or nothing at all. Let’s start again and go forward from now on. I am your father and will always be there to love and support you the best I can..I will never stop loving you. I am here. Always. With devotion. Dad xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox

  • DoveAlexa

    So they are willing to weaken the indoctrination on one of their members (Flavio) by writing things in his name he doesn’t agree with, just to make a hamfisted attempt to silence the family by, what, making them a bit sadder than they already were?
    Did OSA think any of this through? I’m going on the assumption that they set up this call, allowing the cat to leave the proverbial bag as soon as the two sides got to talking.

  • Mat Pesch

    Lots of positives. That Flavio is out on tour is important because he will get to see the real state of the churches. and may start to question the lies he has been told, even if just a little. Also being able to see life away from the main base (Flag) will help to re orientate him to reality. Hopefully he will be left on tour for a few months. I went on tour for 9 months before leaving the Sea Org after 28 years. It was a contributing factor.

    No one can change years of brainwashing/information control with a phone call. What was done was to let Flavio know that his parents are alive, they love him and they are there for him. They also let Flavio know that their upset was with Miscavige and behavior by the cherch and not with Flavio himself. Dedicated Sea Org members just don’t wake up one day and decide to leave. It takes an accumulation of bad experiences provided by the cherch itself that brings about a breaking point where the person feels they have to leave to keep their health, sanity, etc. The Sea Org is very good at causing that breaking point. That breaking point is far more fragile when a person knows they have options. They have friends and family on the outside who are there for them should they decide to leave. Claudio and Renata reinforced that with live communication. MAJOR. Well done to them!!

    • kemist

      What do SO members do when they’re “on tour” ?

      • Mat Pesch

        There are two main types of tours. One is for recruitment and the other is to get Scientologists to arrive for courses or counseling, known as Arrival Tours. As Flavio is an auditor he is most likely on an Arrivals Tour. The tour will set up an event where they show a video about Flag to the local Scientologists. Everyone who shows up at the event will fill out a survey and they will be scheduled for an interview later in the week. A member of the tour will do the interview and help convince the person that they need to go to Flag and will schedule an arrivals date. Flavio would do this as a “counseling expert” and someone else on the tour is responsible for getting the person to pay. Flag always has at least 3 arrivals tours out at any given time.

        • Graham

          Does Flavio get commission for every one who arrives at Flag?

          • The tour crew are not paid extra for production that I know of. They are given flights, rental car (maybe) and meal allowance. This based on AOLA tours in 80 & 90s.

          • Mat Pesch

            No. He is lucky if he gets his $45 a week pay. The last time I went on tour I had to use my own money to pay airfare home from Europe which was equivalent to months of pay.

        • Renata Fruscella Lugli

          Thanks Matt, is it true what you say, in fact I and Claudio are just waiting for the breaking point by Flavio.

    • Techie

      An important point, Mat. Just a bit of advice for anyone reading this – if you do have contact with your Scientologist or Sea Org relative it is pointless to try to talk them into leaving. Any attempts to “rescue” them or point out how bad Scientology is will just drive them deeper into their shells or may convince them you are the enemy. Unconditional love, phone numbers, contact information, offers to pay for flights, letting them know you are there for them will be much more effective. Emphasis on the love. Another good tactic is to remind them of their lives before Scientology.

      • Mat Pesch

        Very good point.

      • From the outside, it’s always struck me that the best thing anyone who is contact with a Scientologist can do is establish that

        a) You will always there for them.
        b) You don’t accept Scientology, and can only agree to differ.
        c) You want to keep in touch – the SP version of ‘good roads, fair weather’

        It’s also important to provide a point of contact with the wider world and another perspective on life. The problem with Scientology is that it encloses people in a world where Scientology is all there is, and inmates start thinking exclusively in those terms.

    • Juicer77

      Excellent point about touring. One can only hope that the increasing shortage of personnel will mean more people will be shifted around from post to post on a frequent basis. All that trading “coin” (for newbies – this is how staffers are referred to by their managers) means these people will see the real state of things ALL OVER.

      • I wish there were better numbers for the Sea Org. When that well runs dry, things will really start to fall apart.

      • April

        Chris Shelton said that before leaving the CO$ his job required that he travel to various orgs, and realizing that none of them were doing well was one of the things that led to him waking up.

        • Juicer77

          And the fact that the focus was not on planetary clearing, but fundraising. It must have been a shocking realization.

      • Mat Pesch

        I remember going back to the base in Clearwater after 9 months living in Europe. I was riding the cherch bus to work and I looked around and many of the staff were sleeping in the bus on the way TO work. They were exhausted. There was no happy talking between anyone. It really hit me. I thought “this is messed up and pathetic”. I had seen that St Hill was a ghost town and many other things that exposed the lies of management. When OSA wanted me RPFed over nothing it was game over. Breaking point reached. Thank goodness.

  • Science Doc

    I’m sure parts of this have already been posted. I streamed Friday’s Bill Maher last night (Hi Bill, welcome back!). Bill made two scathing comparisons between Scientology and recent events in the Executive Branches. He then announced that Leah will be on this Friday.

  • Mick Roberts

    This was a comment on an article on Mike Rinder’s blog today, and as a never-in, I personally found this comment to be very enlightening, fascinating, and extremely applicable to this story of Flavio. Basically, it brought me the realization that people in Scientology who disconnect from loved ones seem to be convinced by the church that THEY are not the ones who are disconnecting, but that their family members are actually the ones that are abandoning THEM. Here’s what a person on the story up today on Mike Rinder’s blog stated:

    “On the subject of disconnection, my experience when my son disconnected
    from us and also what I’ve read on various websites – the brainwashing
    consists of having still-ins realise they are not disconnecting. No,
    they are not the cause point. The people they are disconnecting from are
    in fact rather ‘abandoning’ them. It’s all reversed. My son informed me
    I was abandoning him. I was the cause point of the fracture in our
    relations. All I had to do was steps A to E and it would all be sunshine
    and koolaid just like in the good old days. To him it was so simple
    that I do this, that my refusal was obviously a desire to abandon him.”

    I’m new to this stuff, so this is the first time I’ve heard this type of explanation and the reasoning behind how someone can disconnect from their own family members. I’m sure others who have been here a long time understood this, but as a relative “newbie”, this was very enlightening to me.

    • ze moo

      ‘We have always been at war with East Asia.’ Thought control by redefinition is the classic totalitarian tactic.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      What’s truly bizarre about the whole “black is white, up is down” mind fuck there is that the ultimate explanatory rationale for why a scientologist must either handle or disconnect from those who attack or are critical of the cherch is based on the predicate that being connected to SPs will cause you to lose all of your spiritual gains and “roller coaster” in life. It’s an unquestionable fact which is swallowed whole and without reflection by all True Believer $cilons

      Now, if $cn works to make those who get audited and trained more able, and OaTys are the most able folks in the universe, then exactly how being around somebody who’s giving you shit about your religion is going to suddenly and magically cancel out everything that you’ve gained is just never explained in any detail at all. These are very fragile and ephemeral gains if they’re so easily lost merely by being around disagreeable people. And if that’s true, then SPs are the true super beings because they can dominate and affect all those around them without themselves being affected.

      The proper response from a $cilon who truly feels like he’s made the kind of gains that have been promised, is to say to all those concerned, “It’s cool, I can handle this, after all I’ve been trained and audited to deal with SPs!” The cherch either believes that SPs are the most powerful beings on earth or that its very expensive services don’t even make you fit enough to handle such folks on your own and you need the cherch to tell you what to do because you’re soooo enturbulated that you can’t make a rational decision for yourself

      The reality there is that $cilons roller coaster in their lives because the euphoric effects of auditing as a form of hypnosis only last for a little while and are in no way cumulative or constitute ascending steps to ultimate enlightenment. Blaming the preclear for $cn’s inadequacies and lack of lasting results is baked into the con. Indeed, all bad things that befall you in $cn are your own fault because the Holy Tech is infallible! No wonder so many $cilons go crazy!

      • Mick Roberts

        Wow, great thoughts about the logical fallacy of why a Scientologist (as a supposedly “superior” being with unstoppable “tech” as compared to an SP) would even need to disconnect, and how fragile their gains must be if an inferior SP can undo those gains. I was going to copy and paste one of your sentences to give you a thumbs up, especially in paragraphs 2 and 3, but out of every single sentence, I couldn’t choose just one of them to copy, so have to give it all a thumbs up. Very good thoughts.

        • GoneToPlaid

          Most of their logic is circular reasoning, throw in some straw-man and moving the goalpost i’m sure there are other’s I’m missing

        • Harpoona Frittata

          Thanks, I appreciate the kind words! What really got me after I fled the cult was the amount of stuff that I just swallowed whole without reflecting upon it to any deep level. The whole thing is just filled with so many logical fallacies, unsupported claims and clearly made up bullshit that it put me on a life-long path of questioning whatever I was told and of evaluating things for myself instead of believing in the words of any supposedly enlightened individual. So, although it was an expensive lesson to learn, I learned it very well indeed!

  • Ben Franklin

    Hubbard’s statement that “a seven year old girl should see nothing wrong in a kiss” from a man is vile, but, I don’t believe that with that statement Hubbard was suggesting that it is OK for a man to kiss a seven year old girl.

    To be fair though, we have to look into Hubbard’s understanding/explanation of the human mind to understand the context where that statement is coming from.

    Hubbard believed that there are three divisions of the human mind – the Analytical Mind, the Reactive Mind and the Somatic Mind.

    The the Analytical Mind, according to Hubbard is the part of human mind that reasons. This is the part of the mind that analyzes information and makes rational decisions based on reason knowledge and experience. For Hubbard, the analytical mind is perfect it does not make any errors, because it is guided by the power of reason

    The Reactive Mind, according to Hubbard is that part of the mind that just reacts to stimuli, it does not act based on reason, or analysis of information.

    The Somatic Mind, according to Hubbard is a part of the mind that is controlled by human body and can also be influenced by the analytical and the reactive mind.

    When you put Hubbard’s statement into context, you can see that what Hubbard is suggesting here is that a seven year old girl who has never been kissed before have no understanding or knowledge of what a kiss is. Following Hubbard’s logic, a seven year old girl cannot understand whether kissing a man is right or wrong. The seven year old girl therefore can only reject or accept the kiss based on pure reaction, not by way of reason or analysis that kissing a man is right wrong.

    • April

      “The Somatic Mind, according to Hubbard is a part of the mind that is controlled by [the] human body…”

      OMFG could he have been any more demonstrably wrong with that idea? Gahhhh
      This idea of his is right up there with smoking cigarettes prevents cancer. Wrong. Wrong. Fucking Wrong.

    • Techie

      Very true, Ben, but isn’t it ironic that just a few years later he was saying that 6-year-olds often remember their past lives, know exactly what a man’s kiss means, can remember their former married lives and point to the gravestones of their former families? All BS too, and borrowed from folks like Ian Stevenson. But exactly opposite to what he said in 1950.

      • Ben Franklin

        Hubbard had no clue about most of the things he was talking about and just made things up as he went along. The most hilarious thing to me was when Hubbard suggested that human thought and memories can be measured/quantified.

        Believe it or not, Hubbard actually suggested that he could measure the mass of human thought / memories. According to Hubbard, one can easily measure the mass of human thought by weighing the person. In other words, a person weighs more when they have a lot on their minds, and weighs less when they have less on their minds. That is how deeply Hubbard conducted his research to determine whether it is possible to measure the mass of human thought or memories.

        • flyonthewall

          seems like you’re fond of this idea of thoughts/memories having mass

          • Ben Franklin

            and what makes you think that?

        • Harpoona Frittata

          And according to at least one written account, he tried to prove that auditing worked by “as-ising” the mental mass of engrams by weighing a preclear before and after auditing. In his typical grandiose fashion, Elron reported something like a 20 lb. weight loss!

          Just like the early public Clear demonstration which went so horribly wrong for him, this little bit of “scientific” research was quickly buried and no further mention of it was ever made.

          Elron was truly the DonJon Twump of his times because no matter how many huge whoppers he told and the many people he conned, nothing that he did that SHOULD have exposed him to all as the huge fraud that he was actually did so.

          • Techie

            “Mental mass”, ha ha. Just like when you turn off your computer it weighs less because there are no “thoughts” zipping around inside.Supposedly somebody did an experiment around the turn of the century that showed a difference in weight when somebody dies. And part of the “Sensitivity Training” that was popular in the early 70s was lifting someone, and trying again while they were thinking “light thoughts”. There is a perceptible difference, entirely attributable to confirmation bias. All BS. But if you can find a first edition of the red “Technical Volumes”, in the very first chronological volume there is an essay about the e-meter. It says something like “You shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that the current from the meter runs through the mind”. So at the beginning he knew it was just physiological reactions but later felt he had to invent the “mental masses” and “mental charge” to reinforce his theories.

            • Harpoona Frittata

              Elron was nothing if not inventive! The crazy old coot could pivot off of some past claim that was proved false and come up with a new one quicker than you can say, “Ron IS Xenu!”

              His writings are so vast, intricate and full of arcane language that his “reboots” of the objective claims being made, then abandoned and later reconfigured, is hard to spot because no one on the inside is or has ever critically deconstructed them. It’s only after you’re out and wish to understand in detail how you became a Ronbot that scholarly folks attempt to sort it all out.

              The fact that Dn and $cn never worked as promised then and does not do so now either is the “cut to the chase” take home message that’s most important to get across. If $cn worked as promised folks would be lined up twenty deep to be the first through the doors in the morning and all of science would be focused in on investigating how such “beyond physics” phenomena were causally organized. It doesn’t, so they’re not and neither should you!

          • Ben Franklin

            I know. I find the idea of weighing someone to figure out their “mental mass of engrams” to be so funny and so stupid. This was Hubbard’s “proof” that the mass of human thought or memories could be measured. He believed that human thought and memory occupied space on human mind, the same way one would have furniture inside a house. The more thoughts and memories one had in their mind, the heavier the person weighed. That is Hubbard’s Science and research right there.

    • Pseudoscientific claptrap aside, the passage is still a vile, willful disrespect of children’s bodily autonomy, especially a girl’s.

    • flyonthewall

      he very plainly said there’s something wrong with a 7 year old girl who doesn’t like being kissed passionately by an older man. She is not computing, she has an engram. It’s really not complicated what he’s saying.

      • Ben Franklin

        What he said is that “at seven she should see nothing wrong with a kiss, not even a passionate one”

        What he meant is that at seven years old, a girl has no understanding of what a kiss is, therefore, when she rejects or accepts a kiss at that age, the decision is not based on reasoning whether it is right or wrong, her action is just based on pure reaction.

        In other words, at seven, a girl cannot reason whether it is right or wrong to kiss a man. Hubbard is not saying with that statement that it is wrong for a girl to reject a kiss from a man. What he is saying that when a girl rejects a kiss from a man at that young age (seven years old) she is doing it out of reaction, not based on any analysis or reasoning. For example, an adult would not kiss a child by way of reason that it is wrong.

        • flyonthewall

          no that’s not what he meant and your convoluted reading of it concludes that Hubbard is not a creep and a pervert. That’s interesting to me

          • Ben Franklin

            My goodness Fly.

            • flyonthewall

              don’t my goodness me, I know what you’re up to. You’re trying to kill me!

            • Ben Franklin

              The ability to control pneumonia is beyond me.

        • gtsix

          Yea… that is the point. “her action is just based on pure reaction.”

          That’s called a reflex – conscious thought is not needed.

          Listen to your reflexes kids. They will guide you away from liars, cons and charlatans.

    • MarcabExpat

      Putting aside how he was completely wrong about everything, you can see his point!
      /s

    • Observer

      That statement demonstrates exactly how depraved Hubbard was. No normal human being would come up with that.

      • Ben Franklin

        I agree that it was a terrible illustration for Hubbard to use, but to be fair, I don’t believe he meant to suggest with it the statement that it is Ok for men to kiss seven year old girls and that seven year old girls should see nothing wrong with that.

        • Observer

          He said children are old thetans in new bodies, not actual children. A seven-year-old girl is an ancient thetan, so following what passes for his reasoning, nothing sexual anyone does with a child is abuse, it’s not a child. Not to mention how the cherch punishes the abused children while protecting the abuser. Look up Tony’s story on Jan Eastgate.

          What Hubs didn’t explicitly say is nonetheless broadcast loud and clear, and reinforced by Scientology’s actions.

          • Ben Franklin

            If you think that I am somehow defending Hubbard on every vile thing he ever said or did, you are definitely barking at the wrong tree.

            • Observer

              Where did I say that, or even imply it?

            • Ben Franklin

              I probably miss-read your comment, but, I just got the sense that you somehow felt that I am defending Hubbard

            • Observer

              I think you’re cutting him too much slack, which isn’t the same as defending him, but that’s just my opinion.

            • Ben Franklin

              I hear you observer. Most people seem to think that I am trying to defend Hubbard, but, I am just being fair. Truth is more important than anything. Sometimes we let our emotions get the better of us and it is easy for us to overlook things or just believe what we want to believe based on our emotions. I did not post the comment to defend Hubbard.

              I posted the comment because I believe that if you actually read and understand Hubbard’s description of how the human mind works you can clearly see that with that vile statement, Hubbard was trying to explain that a child does not understand anything sexual, therefore, a child cannot rationally decide whether to accept or reject sexual advance. In other words, whether the child rejects or follows through, the decision is based purely on reaction (i.e the reactive mind) and not the analytical mind (capable of reasoning).

            • Missionary Kid

              Isn’t that in conflict with the idea that children are simply little adults?

            • grundoon

              The idea that children are simply little adults was introduced two years later.

            • Missionary Kid

              I should realize that there is no logic in Hubbard’s spews.

            • grundoon

              Your attempt to find logic in this passage of Dianetics will lead to no good end.

            • Ben Franklin

              I am not trying to find logic in the passage, I am just trying to place it in context.

          • grundoon

            Hubbard came up with the ancient thetan story a couple years after Dianetics, when he needed some theology for his “religion angle.”

            The uber-creepy crap in Dianetics is all down to present-lifetime “engrams” and the “reactive mind,” not old thetans in new bodies.

            • Observer

              You’re right–and that makes it even worse.

        • sizzle8

          I think it’s a reflection of his Aleister Crowley influence – “Do what thou will”. He believed that in an ultimate sense there are no rules. There are rules at homo sapiens level but those rules are artificial and not natural law. Thetans make the universes and make the rules.

        • FredEX2

          As a woman…and an EX…I think LRH knew what he was saying at all times and intended it to be taken exactly that way. There’s no mistaking the intention. There is absolutely NO context in which it would be OK for a man…or anyone…to passionately kiss a little 7 year old girl. None. And it’s deviant & perverted for a man to even think of,…or want to ‘passionately kiss’ a little girl. Just sick. Even if LRH believed that children were old thetans in children’s bodies…there is nothing that makes this right.

          • GoneToPlaid

            Yeah call it a Freudian slip if you will, this and Hubbard’s other obsessions with intercourse and abortions show him to be a misogynistic depraved sexual deviant.

          • As if this text is not bad enough the incredible thing, to me, is that it still appears in copies of “Dianetics” which Scientologists aggressively sell in the belief that this is the best way to recruit new members.

            If anything underlines the observation (which I have heard several ex-Scientologists make) that nobody actually reads the bloody silly thing, this is it.

            Surely anyone today sat down with a copy of that curiously dated and irrelevant book (basically a rip-of of psychoanalysis and1950s misconceptions about ‘electronic brains’,supplemented with a little power fantasy) and really read it, they would surely come unstuck at that passage.

            I wonder how long it will be before that passage mysteriously disappears from new editions – or are the CofS so hopelessly out of touch that they will leave it be.

            • FredEX2

              So true Once_Born. And a Scientologist would never openly question what LRH said either…unreal how Scientologists learn to accept the unacceptable …
              …even the VERY unacceptable…as if it’s all ok bc it came from LRH.

        • grundoon

          You’ll give Hubbard a free pass because he imagined that little girls have three minds? Really there is no way to rationalize his creepy pronouncement.

          • Ben Franklin

            If you look at my previous comment you will see that I said it was a vile statement, so I don’t know why you think that I am giving Hubbard a pass. The statement was vile, but, it is does not indicate or show that Hubbard did not see anything wrong with a man molesting a child. That’s all I meant.

            • grundoon

              Hubbard wrote, “the auditor in his work… can clearly establish whether or not he is confronting a rational reaction.” He advises that, when an adult man audits a seven-year old girl, he should kiss her passionately to find out whether her reaction is rational (accepting the kiss) or aberrated (upset by it). If the girl doesn’t want the kiss, the auditor should work to erase the prenatal engram which caused her irrational distaste for men, kisses, or passion. One would not want her to grow up frigid.

              Hubbard states this quite clearly as practical clinical advice for the auditor.

            • Ben Franklin

              Do you have a copy of the text the auditor book you are talking about?

              If Hubbard explicitly advised auditors to kiss seven year old girls as a test to see if they react or not then I would agree with you 100%, but I would have to see text you are referring to first before I can state whether I still stand by or retract my original comment

            • grundoon
            • Ben Franklin

              Not the quote posted by Tony. I am asking you about a copy of the text where you said Hubbard wrote the following:

              Hubbard wrote, “the auditor in his work… can clearly establish whether or not he is confronting a rational reaction.” He advises that, when an adult man audits a seven-year old girl, he should kiss her passionately to find out whether her reaction is rational (accepting the kiss) or aberrated (upset by it).

              I am particularly interested in text showing proof of Hubbard advising his auditors to kiss kids passionately as a test to see if they react rationally or not.

            • grundoon

              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/12145a48b086e64ad87b4e595f2fd75102f43da06b514facc1a894533174a630.jpg

              Do you see it now? I’ve underlined the quote in orange. It’s the topic sentence of the paragraph – thus the whole paragraph addresses “the auditor in his work.” Underlined in pink is the part where he elaborates upon his topic by suggesting that a seven year old girl’s rationality can be tested with a kiss. He adds that the kiss can be a passionate one, and that the girl’s shudder is explained by an engram which causes irrational aversion to men or kissing. As we know, the job of the auditor is to erase the engram that cause irrational behavior. Consequently after auditing, the seven year old girl should accept the adult man’s passionate kisses without shuddering – this is what Hubbard calls rational. I think my restatement accurately captures Hubbard’s meaning without exaggeration. It is right there.

            • Ben Franklin

              Well… here is a bigger excerpt from Dianetics where the text
              comes from. Let me know if you still consider the text as an “advise” by
              Hubbard to auditors to passionately kiss seven year olds to see if they
              react or not react.

              http://tonyortega.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dianetics336a.jpg

            • MooreS

              It is entirely rational for a seven year old girl to perceive something very, very wrong in a man kissing her passionately. It is outside of her experience to date and something she never witnesses in the realm of her life. It is aberrant, and she correctly perceives it this way. My view is that Hubbard is clearly attempting to “prove” that anything he says that is logically aberrant is just some ol’ implant and you need to get rid of it. Convenient way for him to do whatever he pleases. That anyone could swallow this is mind blowing. SMH

            • grundoon

              The added context only makes it worse.

              Hubbard says his vapid axiom should be used by “the auditor” to establish whether he is confronting a rational reaction. He immediately gives an example so that the auditor can clearly understand what he means. For reasons not stated, the example he chooses is a seven year old girl audited by an adult male.

              The auditor, applying the axiom, presents the seven year old girl with a “problem relating to survival” – in this example, a passionate kiss. How does the kiss relate to the child’s survival? Hubbard doesn’t say. Is coercion involved?

              If the child reacts to this stimulus with a shudder or makes some objection, Hubbard says, “she is reacting to an engram” in a “departure from optimum rationality.”

              “Any departure from optimum is suspect.” By implication, it becomes the auditor’s duty to take the child in session back to the “earlier experience, possibly prenatal, which made men or kissing very bad.” When the auditor has removed the charge from the incident, we can presume, the girl’s reactions should return to “optimum” – that is, “she should see nothing wrong in a kiss, not even a passionate one.” Probably the only way to be sure is to kiss, audit, and kiss again.

              Hubbard ends the paragraph with this: The auditor can “observe the conduct of his patient and his patient’s reactions to life in order to gain data.” Hubbard intends that the relationship between the auditor and the girl is like that of doctor and patient. I don’t know how it was in 1950, but nowadays an MD can lose his license for inappropriate contact with even an adult patient.

              Imagine the auditor explaining to the girl’s parents.

              “It’s all right, I’m a doctor.”

              “Of Dianetics.”

              “I have a certificate signed by Hubbard himself.”

            • Ben Franklin

              As I said before, it was a terrible/ vile example used by Hubbard in trying to explain his idea of how the human mind functions, but, it is not proof that Hubbard is supporting or encouraging molesting children with the statement.

            • grundoon

              Years later in the Chruch of Scientology, Hubbard laid out the specific steps that auditors were to carry out in processing. He set forth codes of conduct, and instituted rather stringent training and enforcement of these standards. As far as I know these later standards would forbid an auditor to kiss a PC as an auditing or assessment technique.

              Yet the Chruch still publishes Dianetics and encourages its use by untrained auditors attempting “Book 0” auditing on their own.

              In 1950-51, would Dianetics enthusiasts have acted upon this offhand advice published by Hubbard? Probably none of them would force a passionate kiss upon a child in an auditing session, no matter what crazy shit they heard from Hubbard. They knew well enough to scan for the usable nuggets and shrug off the rest of Hubbard’s incessant blather. And they had enough sense – I hope – never to offer up a young girl to the strange men at the Hubbard Foundation.

    • kemist

      This statement still gets the Pedobear seal of approval, no matter where it comes from.

      People with morally objectionable fetishes, or abhorrent views, somehow always find some way to justify them.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      It’s not so much the argument itself that Elron presents which clues you into what’s wrong with $cn, but how it reflects the depravity of the individual who came up with it as an explanatory example.

      The same argument could be made from the scientological perspective concerning an adult using a seven year old sexually. A child who has never been molested before has no prior this-lifetime memory to cause them to react negatively, so… Obviously, when you dial up the depravity of the explanatory scenario like that, it becomes illustrative of the twisted mind of the individual who thought it up.

      Elron betrays his own anti-social personality all over the place, especially in his early writings in which he expresses his lack of regard for every “low-toned” individual on the planet and notes that he’s just fine with seeing them eliminated. His comment concerning the seven year old girl could be construed differently if the larger context of his remarks weren’t so uniformly evil.

      • Ben Franklin

        There are a lot of errors in Hubbard’s theory of how the human mind works. I just want to make it clear to everyone, that I do not subscribe to Hubbard’s ramblings about the human mind.

        That being said, Hubbard believed that humans act based on either reason or blind reaction. Without knowledge of, or experience with something, one cannot make any decision regarding that thing based on reason or analysis of information. It follows that any decision made regarding a new thing or experience, according to Hubbard, can only be made based on reaction.

        I agree Hubbard was evil, but, in this case I don’t believe that Hubbard was suggesting that it is OK for grown men to kiss seven year old girls, and that seven year old girls should not object to being kissed by a man. When you place the statement into the context of what Hubbard was describing with respect to his notion of analytical and reactive minds then you understand.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          I get it, but it’s the mere fact that Elron came up with that particular example out of a universe of other possibilities that tips his hand and gives you insight into the anti-social personality that he was. Once you read what else he had to say about women, and know his history of misogyny, then you begin to understand the kind of mind that would come up with that kind of example in the first place.

          Using one quote or one example from Elron’s very long and very consistent history of being sociopath will never make the case; it’s the consistent pattern of his evil actions towards others that does so. After all, any man that will come up with a lie about having killed and dismembered his infant daughter, merely to get back at her mother, isn’t going to have any concern at all for seven year old girls who are being kissed passionately by an adult.

          • Frodis73

            ^^^This. It is his examples that reveal his sickness. All of them are disgusting and anti-women…his hatred is obvious.

        • grundoon

          btw… “Hubbard believed” should perhaps be corrected to “Hubbard wrote.”

          All we can say for sure is that he wrote Dianetics with the belief that he could profit if people would buy it. See his letter to Forry Ackerman.

    • Frodis73

      I upvoted this because I think it is important for others to see. On Twitter we have asked both JAW and Gemma to explain this a million times with no luck. She insists we are taking it out of context and will not explain further (cause she can’t imo).
      I just see this as a statement from Source on high that is a pedo’s dream. It basically gives an okay for others to have dominance over anothers body with no thought to what the girl wants. I am pretty extreme on this issue. If I had a kid and they did not want somebody to hug/kiss them, even if it is a grandparent or other close relative, I would NOT force it, ever. If kids think they have no rights over their own body it is easy to see how somebody can come in and use that to their advantage.
      Sorry for rambling, this just pisses me off beyond words.

      • Ben Franklin

        There are many ways Hubbard could have probably explained his idea of analytical and reactive minds but he chose one of the most vile ways to explain it.

  • As heartbreaking as many of the stories that Tony covers can be, the silver lining is always a mental image I get, of Miscavige flipping out when he sees what Tony has reported. Shining a light on his hamfisted efforts to “handle” critics and exes always results in an imaginary scene of comedic pandemonium that would do Blake Edwards proud.

    • Juicer77

      I was just commenting downthread that it’s fascinating to see the Mismanage scrambling to react to the latest story. It’s so obvious.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        And since he feels personally aggrieved and just has to micro-manage every aspect of everything, the lil guy has to be close to exhausted and at his wits end…soooo, KEEP IT UP!

        One of the many positive things that Leah’s series has accomplished is to raise public awareness – both within $cn and for the public at large – that there’s really only one individual running the entire shit show that is $cn; there is no shadowy group of high-level execs, conferring in private and voting on the best way to proceed. There’s only lil davey the tiny tyrant calling all the shots and involved in every single response to Leah’s series, regardless of what mouth his responses come out of.

        So, while he’s sure to blame everyone around him for whatever next massive, double face palm fuck up that’s occurred in order to keep his very fragile ego intact, it’s obvious to everyone else just how inept, vindictive and petty-minded this world ecclesiastical leader actually is. Lil davey is truly his own worst enemy and the more personal “credit” he gets for all of the cult’s stupid mistakes and easily seen through lies the easier it will be to see that he’s removed from power or that the cult is collapsed around him.

        • I would add that it’s impossible for Miscavige to really run everything himself, as a matter of practicality. What he actually does is pass impossible orders on to others. In this way, he can never fail – failure is always blamed on some poor sod who can’t bring about ‘command intention’.

          These people are already out of touch with the wider world. They are committed to the idea of disconnection themselves. All they have is Hubbard’s vague prescription to ‘double-curve’ criticism – to turn the critics accusations back against them.

          The confusion we are seeing is the result of Sea Org fall guys trying to defend the indefensible to the general public from the point of view of Scientology. When this kind of thing happens, the result is going to look random and crazy to outsiders.

          As Scientology comes under greater pressure, this kind of thing is happen in other areas, and will be impossible to understand in rational terms because it really is an unrecoverable mess put into the hands of people with no knowledge of PR.

          • Missionary Kid

            “(T)he result is going to look random and crazy to outsiders.” Just like all of $cientology.

            • The difference being that, since disconnection has been brought into the public eye, people now realise that Scientology isn’t an eccentric ‘religion of the stars’ – it’s an organisation that does serious harm, can’t justify its actions and makes matters worse when it tries.

              Before the public thought it was crazy. Now they know it’s crazy and harmful.

            • Missionary Kid

              Excellent point.

          • Harpoona Frittata

            Exactly! $cn can only be understood from the outside looking in as something that makes no real sense to begin with. Once you get that these folks are all as mad as hatters, but don’t appear to be psychotic in the way that enables most folks to spot crazies, then you’re approaching the subject and its space opera believers in a way that will lead you to insight and understanding.

            Recovering $cilons need lots of rest, good nutrition, a safe environment and plenty of love and compassion to recover from their madness. It can literally take years for them to recover their souls, but with time and support almost everyone can!

  • This tactic by Scientology to reverse the ‘who disconnected from who’ has been used for some time now. They tried it on us numerous times over the past few years. It was so bizarre to hear it the first time. Like hearing ‘red is green’ or something. To get through to someone who’s been in Scientology for years is tough. If you have only 5 minutes it’s almost impossible. The conditioning will at some point cause them to just get out of the conversation and hang up. Think of how many times you’ve heard exes say it takes years to overcome the conditioning and sometimes feel it never completely goes away. This whole thing gives me a headache. I’m going to not take an aspirin.

    • Techie

      Phil, so true, but love is on a wavelength that transcends the programming. If you can keep sending them love it will shine through eventually. If you only have five minutes, love, love, affection, let them know you can pay for flights or arrangements, more love, remind them of former times. You will not change their minds, those are on lock-down in the iron grip of the cult. But you can change their hearts and that will eventually win.

      • I agree, but most people don’t even get that 5 minutes to express the love. Once declared all communication is cut off or filtered through the OSA lie machine.

    • Newiga

      “The who disconnected from who” sounds like a form of gas-lighting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

      • I should have used ‘whom’ there right? The second one should be ‘whom’ because everyone knows ‘who’s on first’. Sorry, I can’t help myself.

        • Newiga

          xD

        • Panopea Abrupta

          Woo’s on first, in $cientology,
          NeverMind is on second,
          It wasn’t me is on third.
          DM is pitching
          But there’s Nobody catching.

        • ze moo

          I always disliked Abbott and Costello. I just couldn’t take the whining….

        • Franklin Adams

          Y’know what’s funny, we had a first baseman here in Albuquerque named Hu, you pronounce it like “Who”.

          Trust me, our third rate play by play dudes on the Sports Animal thought it was the funniest damned thing ever. And when he got promoted to the Dodgers, Vin Scully was beyond amused by it.

      • Robert Eckert

        More like blame-shifting. It is not so much that they are portraying a different sequence of events from what really happened, but interpreting it through their special lens: by speaking out against the Church you were “forcing” them to stop talking to you, so obviously you took that evil action with the intent of breaking off connection.

        • Newiga

          You’re right. It’s sad either way. 🙁

        • jayla197145

          Very insightful Robert. Thank you. And Newiga you are so right. Very sad either way.

    • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

      Yes Phil. The first time I heard of it was in the videos my sisters and son did. I had never heard of it before and thought it was just “us” that they did to, but now I realize it is the latest twist to their disconnections. If you read up my last write-up on Rinder’s, I showed the evidence with their emails that they disconnected from me BEFORE we were even declared……….so bizarre. And yes Newiga, it is like gas-lighting. It is to mess with your mind……….

    • Mary

      Right. I asked my son if he would be willing to listen to people who have a story of abuse – that I could get at least 10 people over to our house. He said “NO.”
      That says it all. Some of those IN know from personal experience about physical assaults and some people IN just don’t want to know.

    • Mary

      I appreciate you and Willie standing your ground with this church. You are both heroes.

  • WhatWall

    When an ex-Scientologist talks to a Scientologist family member about abuses and crimes s/he suffered, the Scientologist’s reaction is always “You’re attacking my church!” If the Scientologist believes that the family member was actually abused, it is rationalized that those were the out-ethics actions of one staff member (or two) which should be reported internally for handling by the church, EVEN IF CRIMINAL.

    Scientologist viewpoints: The Co$ must be protected at all costs because it is the key to your eternity and salvation of the planet. All wrongdoing is perpetrated by a few individuals and must be handled internally. You are responsible for your condition so you bear some responsibility for being abused.

    For me, witnessing some abuse firsthand and then learning that the abuses are widespread opened the first chink in my cult-think armor.

    From Keeping Scientology Working (required reading at the beginning of every Scientology course): “We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better. The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman, and child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depend on what you do here and now with and in Scientology. This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance. Don’t muff it now because it seems unpleasant or unsocial…”

  • 3feetback-of-COS

    Basically, this phone call is a good sign, but I suspect OSA recorded it all and will use pieces of it in an attempt to defend their disconnection practices in the future.

  • Bob Crouch

    The “Science of Mental” passage is even more disgusting if one considers LRH’s Sea Org days, surrounded by prepubescent girls in hot pants and halter tops who had to do jump to his every whim in public as well as behind closed doors!

    • kemist

      Indeed.

      Hubbard may not have acted on those impulses, but it’s hard to deny that he had them, both from that weird fetish about having young prepubescent girls washing his clothes and lighting his cigarettes, and from the peculiar turn his pseudoscience took.

      Can you think of a better way to justify your pedophile urges than to pretend children are just little adults ? A better way to deny the harm you have done to them than pretending they’re insane for feeling that harm ?

      • Missionary Kid

        The idea that children are little adults is an old one, probably a carry-over from the 19th century and much earlier.

        I choose to believe that LRH chose to believe it because then he didn’t want to deal with the sometimes difficult problems caused by developing personalities. He wanted control of people from cradle to grave.

        • jayla197145

          thank you for this, MK. I never thought about it like that before, that makes sense, and very insightful of you.

          • Missionary Kid

            Years ago, someone came up with the theory that there were a lot of suicides among pioneers because as children, they were raised with the idea that they were little adults. It may be a bogus concept, but the idea of children as little adults goes back centuries.

            • Or, to put it another way, childhood was a Victorian invention. Up to that point, allowing children to be different was an indulgence that only the rich could afford.

      • Bob Crouch

        In all fairness to LRH: There is no evidence of actual sexual activity with children. He was definitely a lot more comparable to a child pornographer than a pedophile.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      By the credible accounts of many of these scantily clad messenger girls, the crazy old coot never actually molested them. My bet is that is more a result of his impotence and of Mary Sue keeping a close eye on him than it is about the nature of his desire.

      • It’s always struck me as odd that Scientology is one of the very few paternalistic high control groups that is not rife with accusations of sexual abuse against the guru – accusations which often bring the group down.

        Perhaps Hubbard’s likely impotence is one of the things that enabled Scientology to survive as long as it did.

        I often think that frustration made his sadistic behaviour worse, too.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          Thank Xenu that boner meds weren’t invented earlier!

          Elron appears to have burned out his ability to perform sexually fairly early on in life, perhaps through a combination of heavy smoking, being overweight and excessive drug/alcohol abuse over a long period of time, in addition to all that sex magick stuff that he and Jack Parsons were so into.

          I’m sure that Mary Sue rode very close herd on his miscreant ass and Elron was very aware of how a sex scandal could cause yet another “Mother Hubbard” to abandon him and her tell-all could destroy the image of an enlightened teacher with high morals that he was trying to cultivate.

          If he hadn’t suffered from limp dick syndrome, then my bet is that he would have been bedding his young sycophants left and right, which might very well have collapsed the cult, just like it did for so many other cults that did not survive.

          • I also sometimes wonder (considering his steep mental and physical decline in later life) about the possible effects of undiagnosed STDs.

            This is a man who refused to seek medical attention after a motorcycle spill which left him in agony. He certainly wasn’t going to go a clinic about less obvious symptoms – and there are a range of infections that can wreak havoc if ignored.

  • FredEX2

    What doesn’t kill you ( no matter how hard they’ve tried ) ….makes you stronger. Thank you Scientology…
    F5
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5bb410e807c80896a01ca57f79e1090a397732f0cabc4369598b903ac6052e43.jpg

  • FredEX2
  • Lousy Ratatouille

    These precious few minutes of conversation are undoubtedly more than most families disconnected by Scientology generally are given.
    There’s happiness and there’s sadness.
    I wish Claudio and Renata much strength and the best outcome.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a502RejLz8s&index=1&list=LLalFrFxLOarw4pLrdxPdCkg

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    The Italian OSA blog ‘by’ Flavio does not change the fact that Miscavige’s height is 155 centimetro.

    • Frodis73

      Yes, the fact that Flavio’s dad let that bit of info out is probably what is really driving little Davey’s hate campaign. Ha.

  • Science Doc

    David Miscavige is the Pee Wee Herman of religious leaders. “I know you are, but what am I”?

    • Missionary Kid

      Great comment!
      Pee Wee towers over Miscavige by 8″

  • Renata Fruscella Lugli

    I would not rule out the possibility that was OSA that made it possible for us to get Flavio’s telephone number so that we could hear directly from Flavio’s voice that “we should stop writing all those nasty things on the net”

    • April

      But you still got to talk to your son and let him know that you’re there for him when he decides to leave the CO$. I’m using the word “when” rather than “if” because him knowing that you’re there for him greatly increases the chances of him leaving.

      His traveling around to different orgs has also got to open his eyes a bit when he sees that none of them are doing well, despite the CO$ claims of expansion.

    • flyonthewall

      Renata, what is your fav Italian restaurant, Olive Garden or Fazoli’s? I know, it’s a hard choice.

      • April

        OMG Fly! I’m going out on a limb here and guessing it’s neither of those. lmao

        • flyonthewall

          you’re right, she’s prob more of a Maggiano’s lady. Very oh-la-la!

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)
        • flyonthewall

          I use to work there, until I accidentally got cryogenically frozen and woke up in the year 3000. You DO NOT want to look in the kitchen, trust me.

          • jayla197145

            Oh now Fly you just made me want to look in that kitchen!

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            Did Mr. Panucci die in there?

            • flyonthewall

              Probably idk, that might of been a Lela heavy episo..err memory

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              By the way, don’t they have showers in the year 3000? You smell kinda… funky.

            • flyonthewall

              funky or funkeehh?

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              I smell funkeehh – you, funky. Sorry dude, someone had to say it :-/

            • flyonthewall

              do you really want to hurt me? Do you really want to make me cry?

      • Richard

        Fly, come over to Italy and I’ll bring you out. The moment you enter a little trattoria here, you are never going to return to Olive Garden or Fazoli’s (who the f— are they).
        Fish or meat?

        • vicariousthrill

          Richard, best cooks are in Abruzzo.

        • flyonthewall

          Thank you for the invite Richard! I’ve never been to Italy but I was born right across the way in Croatia and have been back a few times. It is true, you cannot beat local fare but don’t tell Olive Garden I said that!

          Ironically, my neighborhood is full of authentic Italian so I know all about the mortadellas, prosciuttos, rigatoni, manicotti, linguini etc real Italian food. People from out of town come to the restaurants here when they’re visiting St. Louis.

          I like both, depending on my mood. 🙂

          • Missionary Kid

            At least, you know better. 🙂

            What’s fun is that both Italy and Mexico have regional dishes and flavorings that really provide a wonderful culinary experience.

      • Newiga
        • flyonthewall

          first Ben and now you!

    • vicariousthrill

      or to let it seem that the disconnection policy is loosening up.

  • Jgg2012

    :There is NO disconnection policy.” — Tommy Davis.

    • “Don’t step on my blue suede shoes.”
      -Tommy Davis

      • Graham

        Or, knowing Tommy as we do: ‘You haven’t got the F****** rank to step on my blue suede shoes’.

  • flyonthewall

    all this talk of Italian makes me hungry for Olive Garden. Amiright??

    • Missionary Kid

      Olive Garden is about as Italian as Taco Bell is Mexican. Bon apetit.

      • Jimmy3

        Thas raciss
        I’m issuing you a demerit that’s says “Thas raciss”

        • “Thas raciss” is raciss AF. #raciss #meta

        • Missionary Kid

          Do you go to Mexico to eat at the Taco Bells there, or Italy, to eat at their Olive Garden restaurants?

          • Jimmy3

            I would travel to the ron damn moons of Jupiter to eat an endless array of lightly buttered breadsticks sprinkled with garlic salt. You know why? Because I’m not raciss

            • Missionary Kid

              No, you’re not. You just have no taste.

            • Jimmy3

              I momentarily forgot you’re not a people. I was going to say everyone loves Olive Garden breadsticks, but I guess that doesn’t apply. You not being a people and all.

            • Frodis73

              Yum. Now I want some breadsticks and salad. That stuff is good. They can keep the rest of the menu tho.

            • Jimmy3

              See. Frodis is a people. People know.

            • Missionary Kid

              I like breadsticks that way, too. I also like their salad dressing. It’s all, if not faux Italian, a pale imitation of Italian food.

          • Frodis73

            Really dumb question…are there actual Taco Bells in Mexico??? The horror if true. I was in Cancun once and I remember there was a TGIF’s there and some others like that, but do not remember fast food. We went in farther and ate at real places and tried to avoid the touristy places as much as possible.
            I am disturbed at the thought of a taco bell being in Mexico…lol.

            • shiregirl
            • Jimmy3

              Am I the only one who can see the hobbit?

            • Missionary Kid

              There’s no Taco Bells in Mexico, as far as I looked on their corporate website (not very). There are Olive Gardens in Mexico, but none in Italy.

              I heard one of my Midwestern cousins comment about how spicy the Taco Bell food was, and that was without any additional taco sauce.

            • Frodis73

              That is so odd to me about your cousin, but I have heard that before. The hot sauce they have isn’t even that hot in the real world!! I love spicy stuff…though as I get older I find it harder to tolerate it and that makes me sad.

            • Missionary Kid

              My cousin was raised on the relatively bland meat and potato diet. The fresh vegetables out of the garden that they were raised on are quite different from the peppers that are a part of Mexican food.

              I have Mexican friends who will eat jalapeno peppers like they’re popcorn, but they won’t touch sauerkraut. It’s a matter of what one is used to.

            • Frodis73

              I know…and compared to Kemist, I am a wimp! My parents love Mexican so eating it young is what made the difference for me I bet.

            • Missionary Kid

              I really didn’t have any Mexican food until I was in college because, living with my parents, we almost never ate out. My mom cooked most of our meals, and we didn’t have much money. She could cook Swedish, American, and Chinese food, and even though I was born in India (I left at the age of 6 months), I never had Indian food, with the exception of some curry she fixed until years after I was in college.

              Since then, I’ve been lucky to eat all sorts of different ethnic foods.I love Italian and Mexican food. When I was in Spain, I missed Mexican food.

            • kemist

              It barely tastes hot at all to me – but then I’m an Indian food fiend who has eaten the real stuff in India itself (and suffered the crippling intestinal discomfort that goes with it, lol).

              I’ve got less tolerance too – not for taste, mind you, but because of GERD. When I’m not careful with it, I get massive reflux oesophagitis.

              No more delicious mango pickle for me 🙁

          • Todd Tomorrow

            They have Taco Bells in Mexico? I’ve never seen one. Yuck!

      • flyonthewall

        no coupon for you

  • Renata Fruscella Lugli

    Those 8-minute phone call was very exciting for me because I did not speak with Flavio for 6 years, but it was just as negatively exciting to perceive that my son was Miscavige’s properties

    • FredEX2

      From one mother to another Renata…I’m so sorry for the unbearable hurt caused to you & your husband and family due to Scientology and ‘disconnection’. I’m so glad to know you were able to hear his voice and at least exchange ‘I love you’. That was a miracle bc most times they will hang up before you can even communicate at all. I’m sure hearing him say it to you too was both painful and yet somehow hopeful too. Don’t let your heart be discouraged. There is much hope for the future and for your family to be together again. (((❤️)))

    • chukicita

      Renata, I know Flavio loves you. You can tell by how he kept engaged with you during your conversation. I am so glad you got the chance to plant this seed. Flavio non appartiene al Miscavige.

    • Frodis73

      I am happy that you guys were able to hear his voice. Like many others said, maybe seeing all the empty orgs will help open his mind to start questioning. Also, I bet the cognitive dis he was experiencing will stay close all week. It is so obvious they did that blog w/out his knowledge-that alone should disturb him. Hugs to all of you, I hope this ends soon.

    • Joe

      Miscavige may have him locked up, but Flavio and Flavio alone has the key. Like many other people with much more experience on this matter than me have said, it is a prison of belief. All it takes is one moment for it to change and for him to realize that there is so much love waiting for him outside of Scientology than in it. I think that day will come, just keep strong. I’ll keep you and your husband in my prayers.

  • vicariousthrill

    Luglis: Mantenete forte. That boy loves you very much.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Oh yes the prenatal pedophile kiss trauma. WTF? What a sick, twisted fuck.

    • Frodis73

      Well said. There is no justification or context for that. Nope.Nada. Nyet. Non, etc.

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Now the knitting needle one makes since. Ouch!

        • Frodis73

          He was such a sicko.

          • Missionary Kid

            Ya think?

            • Frodis73

              I know…what was my first clue? 🙂

  • Too Much

    “… and that he had not disconnected from us, we had just chosen our own direction.”

    This is the “look what you made me do” defense when someone does something that hurts themselves or others and does not want to accept the fact that they instigated the hurt. It shifts the blame on to the people they hurt, not the person who caused the hurt.

  • Tony Ortega

    Joe Rogan says he’s about to go live with his interview of Leah.

    • Tony Ortega
    • Jimmy3

      Living together before marriage makes baby Jesus tear up

      • Newiga

        What if his interview with Leah isn’t a Christian?

        • Jimmy3

          Baby Jesus is bawling

          • Newiga

            Well, Baby Jesus just has to get his TRs in.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              You tell him, girl. By the powers vested in you by Lemminkäinen!

            • Newiga

              Yeay for Kalevala! Btw. Curious for this one: https://www.amazon.com/Norse-Mythology-Neil-Gaiman/dp/039360909X. I love the Sandman comics and his previous books are good too.

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              You are getting into deep waters there, my Finnish friend. I don’t know about Neil, but much of the rest of the Gaiman family are heavy drinkers of the kool-aid: http://tonyortega.org/?s=gaiman&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search

            • Newiga

              I know.

            • Newiga

              Love the Sandman series and not gonna apologize for that. 😛

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              He wrote a couple of ‘Dr. Who’ episodes as well, and they were good. IIRC, I think Tony has mentioned that Neil is more or less out, but keeping it ‘under wraps’, so as not having to disconnect from his family.

            • gtsix

              He’s out. Been out for a long time. His exwife, children, mother and sibling are all still in (father was ex-GO, unindicted co-conspiritor in Snow White).

              He doesn’t speak publicly about it at all. Maybe someday, if his kids leave, but I highly doubt he will ever speak about it.

  • nottrue

    ustream no work for me so i do youtube sorry… https://youtu.be/PcZO9oWQzlQ

    • Kristen

      TG this is on Youtube, because Ustream uses Flash. Flash. Like, WTF?

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)
        • Kristen

          LOL. Using Flash is like using a corded phone with a rotary dial.

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            What is a corded phone? Do you mean like when you are charging it?

            • Kristen

              I was sure someone would ask “what’s a rotary dial”!

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              I was just getting to that 😉

    • Helen Van Patterson Patton

      Thank you- Over 17,000 watching now. Wow!

    • Tony Ortega

      That will be a headline tomorrow: “Scientology asked Leah Remini if she had sexual intentions toward Tom Cruise”

      • GrangerFX

        Tom Cruise – check
        Sex – check
        Scientology – check
        Yep that’s a headline alright.

      • Dave Reams

        Calling wanting to neuter TC a “sexual intention” is a bit of a stretch

    • Phil McKraken

      For some reason, Leah sounds a lot more articulate and sensible than she did when she was defending Scientology. I wonder why that is.

    • Phil McKraken

      She’s trying to think of Albert Brooks — who also directed Defending Your Life. Great movie.

      • Kristen

        Yep…nice little movie. And Rip Torn.

    • Newiga

      Thanks. Leah is on point as always.

    • Kristen

      LEAH! Do. It.

      • Kristen

        (referring to weed – Leah was shocked there was a roach in an ashtray in the studio, then asked if she should try it because she’s never tried weed)

        • Dave Reams

          I thought she was on Bill Maher next week?

          • Kristen

            No idea

          • Frodis73

            ICWYDT, I think I did anyway. 🙂

    • April

      Why does Leah still believe that the e-meter measures thoughts?

      • Tony Ortega

        Good question.

      • Frodis73

        Wish I could listen…can you explain more about what she said? Wow, I am surprised, I thought she realized it was all bunk.

        • Missionary Kid

          When one is raised immersed in a particular way of thinking, it often takes years to realize all of the falsehoods that have been ingrained in one’s thinking. I believe that Leah has come a long way, but that there are still landmines that are a part of her past that is in her thinking. I’ll give her a pass for now on the idea that e-meters can read thoughts.

          In a couple of years, I won’t give her a pass.

      • I don’t get that either. It just lends that bit of credibility to Scientology which they certainly don’t deserve.

        • Kay (aka Nasty Lady)

          It bothers me too that it seems to lend credibility to them, I kind of cringe. I think a couple of years down the road she probably won’t feel that way anymore about any of it.

      • Kay (aka Nasty Lady)

        I think that she just hasn’t been out long enough to discern everything about Scientology. She was in it her whole life…I think it’s hard to just jettison everything you have believed all at once. Sometimes it takes years. Plus, she’s been under a lot of stress, public exposure, harassment, etc. That has probably given her less time and energy to think through the whole thing. Occasionally I do hear her say things that could be interpreted as somewhat supportive of some of the theology of the church. However, she is still always consistent in condemning their abusive practices, that has never changed. I believe she is totally committed to that. I think it’s normal for life-long cult members that leave their cult to still perceive parts of it as still being beneficial until they have enough time and distance away from it all.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        For all her heart and courage, Leah is still a fairly recent escapee from the cult who is continuing to discover and be amazed by stuff that many of us have known about for years. Indeed, part of her appeal is the fact that she’s genuinely surprised to hear some of these revelations of abuse, greed and impropriety.

        She’s got a long way to go before she’s finally free of all cult think, which is no real surprise given the fact that she was indoctrinated into the madness since she was a young and sucked down the Kool-Aid with relish for decades. That’s no knock on her at all; it’s just a fact that freeing yourself from the cult just begins when you walk out the door.

    • Tony Ortega

      Shelly’s title was actually C.O.B. Assistant, not communicator.

      • I wish Joe had your brains for an evening.

        • Phil McKraken

          Joe’s doing just fine. He’s good at this interviewing thing.

  • Nik Gibbs

    If anyone’s interested, Leah Remini is on the Joe Rogan podcast discussion the COS right now:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZO9oWQzlQ

    • Joe

      Leah: “Lt. Dawson was seen speaking at a Scientology event.”
      Joe: “That seems like a massive conflict of interest.”
      Leah: “You think?!”

      Hahaha, I love her so much.

    • OOkpik

      “…if anyone’s interested,…
      Hahahaha haha *gasp*

      Thank you, Nik. Leah was great!

      • Nik Gibbs

        You’re most welcome, OOkpik 🙂

  • Newiga

    Ka-C#nt. x)

  • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

    I hope that Atlanta crew aren’t having a Star Trek themed day at the org.

    • April

      Yup the red shirt guys never return from an away mission.

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        Maybe because they blow..? Let’s hope so *thumbs up*

        • April

          That’s exactly what I was thinking! Great minds and all that. 😀

  • GrangerFX

    Leah makes an interesting point: The cult says that people who stay in the church are good but people that leave the church are the most evil suppressive persons on Earth. So that means … the cult creates evil suppressive persons. If they are good when they are in and evil when they leave, the cult made them evil. Way to clear the planet people!

  • GoldieSev

    I realise, in more recent years, this blog has been centered around Scientology’s policy of disconnection and the belief that all disconnection is wrong.

    But I recall a social worker friend, a number of years ago, horrified that when social work services were put out to compulsory tender, a Catholic Church service won a contract because they were determined to reunite the family even if physical, psychological or sexual abuse was involved.

    I’m just pointing out – don’t substitute one dogma for another &, sometimes, people go missing because they don’t want to be found for a range of reasons. Religion, of any kind, may only be one of them.

    • Missionary Kid

      Good points. Since divorce wasn’t a part of the CC dogma, the idea was to keep people married and together. That has lead to all sorts of weird and ridiculous behavior on the part of people living heavily Catholic countries where divorce has been prohibited.

    • TexasBroad

      Required/coerced disconnection used as a means of behavior control is what is at issue here. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if people were allowed to NOT sever relationships without repercussion. It is not a choice.

    • pluvo

      Well, there ARE more and more disconnections.

    • Two wrongs, as my granny used to say, don’t make a right.

      If some Catholic organisations go about social work the wrong way, for ideological reasons, that’s wrong. It says nothing about the abusive practice of forced disconnection, however. That’s an unrelated matter which is wrong too.

      The instances of disconnection that are featured here are fairly open and shut examples of abuse, and it is they which we object to.

      Besides, disconnection is only one of a variety of abuses that have been discussed here “in more recent years” – have you missed (for example) the descriptions of misleading front groups, the activities of Narconon, virtual imprisonment in Scientology compounds and on the “Freewinds”, sharp financial practice (e.g. taking out credit cards in the names of Scientologists without their knowledge, Scientologys hatred of scientific medicine and psychiatry in particular (and the ways in which this effects the health of Scientologists)?

      You make it sound as if Tony has been banging on about nothing but disconnection. That’s not true – there are plenty more abuses to choose from.

      • GoldieSev

        I’m not trying to excuse one religious group with bad policies through another but point out that people so-called ‘disconnect’ from so-called families for a whole lot of reasons.

        A so-called family that was attracted to a religious group to the extent that they were willing to accept all of their rules might be a very sane reason to permanently avoid them. In other words, those who disappear may be the sanest of the bunch.

        I’m not offering a defense of Scientology, Catholicism or any other dogma. But a defense of those who have had enough of toxic family relationships & choose to walk away. It isn’t a crime. It shouldn’t be treated as one.

        Emphasis on ‘chose to walk away’ – if religious co-coercion is involved it should be exposed. Just don’t assume every family story is one dimensional.

        • We don’t. Cases of people who just don’t see each other any more do not feature here. That’s entirely up to the individuals concerned.

          The focus is on cases of disconnection that are forced upon people by CofS dogma – that are clearly, on the face of it, abusive. This dogma can be understood to function to deter critics of Scientology by threatening to deprive them of contact with their families.

          It is clearly expressed in the writings of Hubbard. Scientologists must disconnect from anyone who voices the slightest criticism of Scientology, on pain of being disconnected from themselves. The fear of losing family and friends not only keeps critics quiet but also forces people who really want to the leave the CofS to stay in and go through the motions (we characterise these people as ‘under the radar Scientologists)

          It’s no secret and it’s not subtle. In this TV programme https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2015/08/30/dutch-tv-programme-rambam-goes-undercover-inside-a-scientology-org/ a journalist infiltrated a Scientology org with a hidden camera. Before she even started courses, her ‘advisor’ characterised her boyfriend (whom, she admitted, was not happy about her getting involved with the CofS) as a Nazi and very strongly advised her to dump him. If she had been in any deeper that would not have been advice. It would have been an order.

          These cases often include reason to doubt that the actual Scientologist who has disconnected from others wrote his or her own disconnection letters. There is good evidence that Scientology’s secret police (the OSA) handles this for people.

          If people don’t want to associate with each other, that’s entirely up to them. However, it’s incredibly naive to suppose that any such action is truly voluntary when the CofS is involved.

          • GoldieSev

            Having read comments (below) anything I add will be seen ‘as an attempt to derail’ so I’ll accept I’ve been bullied out of the conversation.

            • No – I’m not trying to bully. I’m not trying to win an argument. What I have written is what I really think.

              There are many clear cases of abuse associated with Scientology’s fixed policy of disconnection. We oppose that kind of manipulation.

              I have sometimes observed that Scientology is such an extreme organisation, that it is easy to oppose – there is little moral ambiguity in it’s behaviour. Consequently, we should be careful that we don’t become as inflexible as they are.

              However, looking around here, and seeing the diversity of opinion, I don’t see that there is much danger of this at the moment. Other people have, in fact spoken up for your post.

              If you research the policy of disconnection, and the way in which it is applied it is indefensible. It leads to situations which are truly abusive. That’s what we object to.

              You are entirely welcome to take part in this conversation (which, you should be warned can be vigorous). The fact that I disagree with you is, if anything, a mark of respect. If I thought you were only here to derail, I would have ignored your comments. I just think you are wrong, in this case, and have tried to explain why. That’s debate, not bullying.

            • gtsix

              Rational debate and disagreement?

              <>

            • I also observe that the person with whom I am disagreeing has made 4 or 5 comments on Disqus, 3 or 4 of which appeared today, in this discussion.

              I encourage them to take a get more practice and try again. I, for one, would like to see a little more dissenting opinion (although it would be preferable if commentators admitted who they were and spoke in their own person).

            • Ben Franklin

              That will be just you giving up and not being bullied by anyone. You have to agree though that you generalizing a bit when you say that that people here believe that all disconnections are bad. I for one don’t believe that people should be stuck in toxic relationships, but that is not what we are talking about here. Most of the disconnection cases discussed here are often cases where people are reaching out to get in touch with their loved ones who have been brainwashed into believing that their family wants to harm them.

            • gtsix

              You’ll accept being bullied?

              <>

            • beauty for ashes

              No, we just hate abuse of children even worse honey. So we’re like OF COURSE NOT!!!! That’s all. So many bunkeroos have suffered abuse as children that we may be sensitive, or defensive for each other. just watch your toes!

        • Kimmy3

          I appreciate that you posted the comments and hope you continue the debate. Disconnection may not always be a crime but it is really sad and heart breaking. I think that is more the point here.

    • kemist

      There are reasons why someone might want to keep away from certain people, and those people might indeed be their family.

      Scientology, however uses shunning as a way to manipulate a member’s loved ones into compliance, and sometimes into giving them money. It dangles the possibility of “reuniting” the family under certain conditions.

      Divorce, or “No Contact”, is not until he other party does what you want. It’s final, because by that time you know that the relationship cannot work. It’s not used as a manipulation tool, but for self-preservation.

      Using a relationship to control who a person speak with, what they write, and what they say is manipulative, and that is what scientology disconnection is all about.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      It’s an important point. No one here who’s a critic of the Cherch’s formal written policy of enforced Disconnection is against the common sense, self-chosen act of deciding who you no longer wish to hang out with. Everyone should always be completely free to make that decision for themselves, based on their own personally defined critieria.

      The cherch would like the public to believe that their policy is little more than just that, but in reality it is an externally enforced formal policy that takes that decision out of the hands of the individual and makes it an offense within the cherch if you fail to comply with it. You can be expelled from the cherch for continuing to have contact with someone who’s been expelled from the cherch, even if that person is a part of your own family.

      The evil lies in putting the power and control over who you associate with in the hands of the group, rather than leaving it to the individual to decide freely on his/her own. $cn denies that they enforce/coerce disconnection under the threat of expulsion, but there are hundreds of examples of them doing exactly that which discredit their claims to the contrary.

      • Juicer77

        ^^^

    • April

      How is

      (1) making a conscious decision to disconnect from abusive people in your life

      the same as

      (2) the CO$ (or any church for that matter) forcing disconnection between family members simply because one or more family members left the church and publicly criticize it?

      These two scenarios aren’t even in the same ball park. Attempting to conflate the two unnecessarily muddies the waters. In case you haven’t figured it out, we’re pissed off about #2, not #1.

    • MarcabExpat

      No. One of these things is not like the other. This is the clumsiest and most offensive false equivalency I’ve seen posted here in a long time, and that’s saying something.

      But a defense of those who have had enough of toxic family relationships & choose to walk away. It isn’t a crime. It shouldn’t be treated as one.

      Such a scenario isn’t “disconnection,” and has nothing to do with disconnection, and your attempt to compare them is offensive both to those who have had to leave toxic family members behind, and those who have been outcast by religious dictate. And as someone who belongs to both of those categories, I know whereof I speak. They are not remotely similar.

      Why would you even conflate the two? Why did you do that?

      Emphasis on ‘chose to walk away’ – if religious co-coercion is involved it should be exposed. Just don’t assume every family story is one dimensional.

      No one assumed that. And what is this “IF religious coercion is involved”? The mission of this blog is to report and expose abuse and coercion, and it has done so. If you are reading this blog, such abuses have been exposed to you. Why not comment on what is happening, as opposed to what isn’t.

      And no, this blog is not just about disconnection now, and no, you haven’t been bullied. You have been rebutted. There is a distinct difference there, too.

  • Newiga

    Leah’s description of BTs creeps me out a bit. O_o I can understand why Scientologist might go a little nutty on these levels. THERE’S NOTHING on my thumb!

    • beauty for ashes

      OUT OUT DAMN SPOT!!!!

  • Jgg2012

    Imagine if new recruits are told up front “if you decide to join, you must disconnect from everyone you know.” For that matter, suppose they are told “it’s all based on the theory that your problems are caused by the souls of dead aliens…and those aliens are drug addicts…and Christianity is an alien implant.”

    • chukicita

      No informed consent.

  • Moltosugo Johnmina Racing

    Sono contento che Claudio e Renata siano riusciti a sentire finalmente Flavio, sarei ancor più contento che un giorno Flavio si svegliasse e originasse che potrebbe fare ciò’ che ama a beneficio di tutti, ossia Audire dove vuole e chi vuole, al di fuori di quello che era una volta, forse, un bel posto.
    Beh, io faccio comunque il tifo perché’ Claudio e Renata possano riabbracciare Flavio .

    • flyonthewall

      wow, that is some language you got there! You guys talk like that all the time huh?

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        Something about a bird, and a horse (?) – that’s all I got.

        • beauty for ashes

          di tutti sounds so cute.

        • flyonthewall

          that ain’t all you got

          SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT!

        • Jimmy3

          He basically said he’s happy they got to talk to him, but wishes for the day when they can embrace in person.

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            That makes a LOT more sense.

            TY.

    • pluvo

      Benvenuto!

  • Gene Trujillo

    “Really, there is no problem in Scientology whatsoever.”

    A lot of people in CofS are ok with human trafficking, enforced abortions, and executive abuse. They think that’s just a normal day to day thing, how you handle reluctant volunteers. If you object to it, they target you. They really see no problem in Scientology whatsoever and will loudly proclaim how ethical they are because they will not tolerate SCOHB!

  • Newiga

    LMAO at Leah dropping the X bomb and getting a KR written on her. xD

  • Jimmy3

    Leah Remini just called us fat

    • Kestrel

      I’m guilty as charged.

      • Jimmy3

        I know. I wasn’t disagreeing. I use my stationary bike as a coat hanger. True story.

        • Kestrel

          Who doesn’t? Isn’t what they’re there for?

      • beauty for ashes

        I’m sooo Hollywood fat. And old!

        • jayla197145

          Me too Beauty!

  • Joe

    Joe Rogan is trying the “but all religions are bad” angle, but she’s not falling for it.

  • Jimmy3

    Leah thinks Joe Rogan just yawned. He said he wasn’t yawning, just thinking.

    • flyonthewall

      all this talk of Joe Rogan is making me hungry for cicadas! Amiright??

      • Jimmy3

        I was hungry for cicadas before anyone even mentioned Joe Rogan

        • Jimmy3

          Round here we call them the chicken of the air.

          • flyonthewall

            Nobody calls them chicken of the air. Who’s we btw?

            • Jimmy3

              Me and the ‘coons.

            • flyonthewall

              thass raciss

            • Jimmy3

              No, because I’m cool with them. I marched with them when we took over the dumpster behind the BP station.

            • So speeceesiss. They prefer to be called Trash Pandas.

  • Tony Ortega

    I’ll be on with Jillian and John at KABC 790 AM radio in Los Angeles at 4:25 Pacific, 7:25 Eastern to talk about the Billboard and this Leah Remini woman.

    • flyonthewall

      tell them it’s tonyortega dot motherfuckin org!

      • Juicer77

        ^^^

  • Jimmy3

    Joe Rogan on Jenna Elfman: “Whatever happened to her?”

    She’s stable.

    • Juicer77

      STAHP. 😉

    • GoneToPlaid

      SNORT

    • Graham

      She told me she was feeling a little hoarse.

      • Juicer77

        GROOOOOAAAAAANNNNNN

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          She is a fine young filly, that Jenna.

      • flyonthewall

        she don’t want no no no little hoarse man

    • Hay now, watch it.

    • Well, you’re feeling your oats today . . .

  • Jimmy3

    EVERYBODY IS A LIAR

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      This is true.

      Or is it..?

      If everybody is a liar, how do I know YOU aren’t lying when you say that.

      • Jimmy3

        I am lying, but that only goes to prove it

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          I see…

          Nope, I don’t get it.

          • Jimmy3

            Liar

            • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

              I almost had you there, amiright?

        • I always lie. I never tell the truth. I’m lying now.

      • GrangerFX
    • GrangerFX

      Anyone that criticizes the cult is a liar but if anyone asks you about OT3 you should lie.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        My favorite is when $cn celebs and spokesholes get asked the Xenu question and have to deny it (or pay $100K), then go on to ridicule the questioner for being so gullible in asking such a ludicrous question when, all along, they know all about their cult’s bizarre and mega whacked space opera central dogma.

        Lying liars are going to lie…and that’s what Lyintology is all about!

        • Is this an example of Xenuphobia?

          • Franklin Adams

            Its pure Chugism.

          • daisy

            Thank you . First laugh today. I do not expect more.

    • GET BACK IN YOUR BODY!

      • And back to present time.
        Present time is awesome.
        I love presents.

    • April

      Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

  • Tony Ortega

    About Rogan’s question regarding Leah’s show leading to people leaving, I wish Leah would help him understand that her show probably has helped people make up their minds, but we won’t know for some time.

    There’s no doubt it’s inspired people to speak up who had kept quiet. But defectors will take a while to contact us.

    • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

      Should i fire up the Ortega-signal, boss?

    • Jimmy3

      I left during a commercial break on episode 1.

      • April

        I pre-emptively never joined the CO$! Ha! Top that!

    • Also, once it’s sold to the international market, and starts being shown and repeated all over the world, it will go on having an effect.

    • FredEX2

      She was as great on the show. Loved every minute of it. Just love Leah! ❤️

    • Dave Reams

      I suspect we will hear more and more from the exes who write here about the newly blown who reconnected with them. Each blow must send ripples of uncertainty and doubt over those still in who knew them.

  • Intergalactic Walrus
  • Jimmy3

    Step 1: Convince Leah Remini that the Bunker is an accident
    Step 2: Continue working on this plan

  • Jimmy3

    Freewinds in the Bahamas: Good place to party and learn about Thetans.

    • Newiga

      and get your dose of fresh sea air asbestos.

      • Franklin Adams

        With a side of PCBs probably too.

    • Ben Franklin

      Only at 3:00am in the morning while the hordes of registrars are asleep, assuming that is even possible.

  • I bought and watched “The Master” on Youtube yesterday. It was really, really good!
    I got it on my phone in HD.

    • Liberated

      Isn’t Seymour-Hoffman great?
      I’m so sorry he’s gone.

    • Jo

      Great movie, I couldn’t understand why people didn’t rent it, back then when u could rent movies. Xtra-Vision bought about at least 30 copies per shop.

  • Intergalactic Walrus
    • Frodis73

      What does she mean by “lifestyle”? That is usually a code word used by religious right for gay.

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        IDK. Her Facebook profile says she is married to a man and shows her supporting legalized cannabis & gay rights. Supports the ACLU, not a Trump fan. Nothing that would strike me as a reason not to see your mother.

        • EmmaDaoust

          Not being in Scientology anymore would be why Scientology “does not approve of her lifestyle.”

          • Frodis73

            True, that is probably what it is now that I think about it.

  • kemist

    OT: Anyone has any idea to lower blood pressure due to a sudden desire to knock some freaking sense into a couple doofuses ?

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3214989/sean-spicer-hints-quebec-city-mosque-shooting-justifies-trump-travel-ban/

    Motherfuckers.

    The shooter is a freaking white, right-leaning douchenozzle who’s probably been encouraged to do do what he did by your rhetoric, you bunch of rotten assholes.

    Gaaah.

    • Whitney

      The shooters said Allah Akbar before they started shooting according to suvivors

      • Ben Franklin

        Anyone can say Allah Akbar, the truth is that this shooter was not a Muslim. The shooter is a white supremacist / nationalist and a big supporter of Donald Trump according to some of the people who know him.

      • Frodis73

        So?

      • Franklin Adams

        And the ANA shouts it when they’re shooting at the Taliban. Usually before they scream things that aren’t anywhere near as nice.

        In this case, the fucker was making some kind of sick joke in all likelihood.

    • Ben Franklin

      Trump and his folks just heard the word Muslim or mosque and just assumed it was a Muslim shooting people. They didn’t even care to get the details of the story to realize that all people who were shot were Muslims, and that they were shot by a non Muslim who is allegedly a white nationalist /supremacist.

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        Trump supporter: See?! See?! This is exactly why we need to protect our borders!

        Reality: Actually, the shooter was a caucasian native.

        Trump supporter: That’s not the point!

        • Ben Franklin

          Trump actually used the shooting to stress why it is important for people to support his ban. It never occurred to them that the shooter was not even a Muslim, and has nothing to do with his ban.

    • EmmaDaoust

      I just made a donation to the mosque. That calmed me down for a minute.

      ETA: Also Liked their Facebook page: Centre Culturel Islamique de Québec

      • Franklin Adams

        If I could donate to the people who were wounded need medical care and can’t afford it, I would definitely do that. Or for funeral expenses for those who were killed.

        The Mosque itself and any damage will be taken care of by the Saudis, Iranians or the Turks depending on how they’re politically aligned, then again I don’t even give money to my own church unless its for something specific (like the Lourdes pilgrimage conducted by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta for terminally ill people), Rome has enough damn money and so does Mecca.

        But there are undoubtedly some people who on an individual basis are going to be facing bills that they can’t afford and I’d like to help in that regard.

        • EmmaDaoust

          They have set up a fund for the families on their Facebook page through the national fundraising charity “Canada Helps”. The 6 men killed all left children, and their families will have difficulty. They are a strong community, and are receiving an outpouring of support from muslim and non-muslim Canadians. Their website is http://www.cciq.org. Of course there are go fund me pages being set up, and who knows how many of them are legit. I donated at their site.

        • HillieOnTheBeach

          “If I could donate to the people who were wounded need medical care and can’t afford it, I would definitely do that.”

          We have universal medical care. What comes out of pocket are things like fiberglass casts v the basic plaster, or certain types of higher technology prosthetics. Though I’d be shocked and pissed off if the RAMQ was to nickel and dime these victims on this.

          Donations to legit charities will likely all go to the Mosque and/or victims’ families to help them move forward.

          • Franklin Adams

            There are always costs somewhere, especially when it comes to traumatic injuries, universal healthcare or not. And if your family just lost its breadwinner, that can get onerous really fast.

            • EmmaDaoust

              Quebec (and all Canadian provinces) has complete free health care. But yes, the families of both the injured and the deceased are going to need help. One of those murdered operated a butcher/grocery store in the community, one was a prof at Laval University.

    • Franklin Adams

      Terrorism is terrorism no matter who does it.

      That’s why the war on terrorism was always a ridiculous term, its like saying I’m going to fight a war against strategic bombing or a war on bounding overwatch. You can’t fight a war against a warfare methodology.

      • EmmaDaoust

        How is your hand, Franklin?

        • Franklin Adams

          Hurts like hell, but its not broken. Just sprained my thumb. Took a week off work since I have a ton of PTO and I never use it.

          • EmmaDaoust

            It looked pretty painful. Good it’s not broken. Take care and get well soon!

            • Franklin Adams

              Yeah it hurts, they loaded me up with anti-inflammatories and painkillers but its still not fun. But having broken my other hand before, it could be a lot worse. At least I’m not going to be stuck in a cast for a few months this time.

      • Frodis73

        ^^^This.

    • daisy

      Cannot help , trying to lower mine. I blame this on the orange , oiled baseball mitt of a face shithead dickface Trump.

    • A fucking admirer of Marine Le Pen.
      Aaaaaaand my head explodes again. W. T. F.