Off to a cocktail party. Back in 90-ish.

Thank you . I only wish that vote had gone differently.

long time reader, first time commenter. finally catching up after a few days. had to say this is the most concise explanation for the vote that i’ve read thus far. thanks for enlightening us.

“contempt for the peasants who would not take direction from their betters”

Just happened upon this old conversation that I must have missed the first time around – very interesting. I especially liked the argument that, of all things that could be said about the Commision, “lobby groups playing a big role in Brussels and influencing the Commision” would somehow prove that the Commision is “not undemocratic”. *smh*

Maybe it would be best to let Our Dear EU Leaders themselves explain, in their own words, how they think this ‘Democracy’ thing is supposed to work:

“We decide something, and then let it float around some time and wait and see what happens. When then there’s no big fuss about it and there are no revolts/uprisings, because most people don’t even understand what’s been decided, we continue – step by step, until there is no turning back.”
– Jean-Claude Juncker, then PM of Luxemburg & President of the ‘Euro Group’ (another not exactly “elected” EU body), back in 1999 on the topic of how the EU government works
Source (in German language): http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-15317086.html

“I do not take my mandate from the European people.”
– Cecilia Malmström(*), EU Commisioner for Trade & as such in charge of the secret TTIP negotiations
(*) “allegedly”; she later backpaddled when the statement became public
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

“The first untruth is that the EU is an unelected body” The COMMISSION is an unelected body. Indirection removes accountability.

“The second untruth is that Cameron was stiff-armed over reforms.” As I told you, I just looked up and re-read what was issued in February. You may find it impressive. A lot of people didn’t. The dominant role of the unaccountable Commission in European legislation was not touched. Few are impressed by promises not to subject Britain to new political integrations when such promises have proven empty before. It is all well and good to say that economic migrants should not be allowed to go on the dole, but most of them are competing for jobs not looking for handouts, and that is what is driving the angst. The ECB’s actions which cannibalize the weaker countries’ economies in the interest of the wealthier are at the root of it, but the UK is in no position to negotiate for changes in the Eurozone when you stayed out of it, so that whole subject was off the table.

“82% of the newspapers supported the Leave campaign which turned essentially into a campaign of fear, not one of reasoned debate about pros and cons.” The Leave campaign was awful: you will get no arguments from me there. The Remain campaign was also full of fearmongering, though, with an overtone of sneering contempt for the peasants who would not take direction from their betters. And this seeped into private conversations as well: my social-media network is a totally unscientific sample of the UK, of course, and I had no Leave voters in my Facebook feed spouting the kind of racist rubbish that I know I would have heard if I had actually been in the UK; it was some of the Remain voters who appalled me with their disdainful refusal to acknowledge that the other side had any legitimate concerns, and while I don’t know anyone who actually changed their vote in consequence, it cannot have been helpful. All in all, the very dismal and divisive campaign underlined the unwisdom of deciding such issues by plebiscite in the first place, and Cameron richly deserves all the flak he has been taking for setting this mess in motion: there, I imagine, we can find some agreement.

“And then, you have a clear split between the older generation and the younger, with much bitterness between them.” The older generation has bitter memories of how they were sold the Common Market in 1975. Many who voted Remain then voted Leave in 2016. I was in the UK in the aftermath of the Remain 1975 vote, and remember the steeply tanking pound (worse than now) and the opinion of “experts” that British industry would never recover: “Joining has turned us into the poor relations of Europe. We shall be scrounging on the dole for the rest of our lives.” and “The benefits have turned out to be like a discount coupon to a shop that is so far out of our way that it is not worth redeeming it.” were two remarks I remember from the English press. The Scottish press had been for Leave, and continued to question why, when “devolution” of power from the center to the local level was being sought (creation of the Scottish Parliament was being debated all through 1976), people weren’t more concerned about power being shifted to an even more distant center: “Of course political integration will happen, and of course, it will be managed as cack-handedly as possible.”

I’m glad to hear that you’re apparently making more money, but sad to hear about this temporary setback. Stay safe, and I wish you happiness.

Well, I was about to move out with my boyfriend but he just lost his job last week (really miserable timing, since we have to be out of here by Thursday), and I don’t make enough to support both of us, so we just had to find some last minute separate cheap temporary housing solutions until we can get our lives back together. I’m alright though. We will get by and things will get better soon. Just really stressful right now.

I am surely not going to change your mind and I see that you revel in your superior intellect as well. I used to be a Scilon many many years ago and am very shy of the boisterous self assured. But consider this, I might just be an asshole.

Trump gathered 15 million votes, which is a record for the Republican nominee. It so reasons the many of which you speak are in fact the few. Your conclusion posits his supporters as simple minded. Ad hominems aweigh,eh? Dismiss them all as simple minded. Good lord man, but you wear your contempt proudly. You must be Homo Novi.

I am getting the feeling that you may feel that way yourself. That I must be uninformed so in turn am presumptuous. There was a time when I was younger and I held much different political views than I do today, The way they changed was with time and study of history. That said. I have very often been called uniformed by right leaning friends and have taken to reading as suggested but you see I’ve already been there. Regardless this conversation started with Donald Trump. I believe he is dangerous as do many of his fellow republicans. He feeds his supporters fears and anger that they rightly possess. But proposes simplistic answers to complex issues that to me only someone possessing a simple mind could accept. But vote for the guy if you wish.