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	<title>
	Comments on: Jon Atack: Scientology&#8217;s notion of &#8216;case gain,&#8217; and how it reinforces the prison of belief	</title>
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	<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/</link>
	<description>TONY ORTEGA on SCIENTOLOGY</description>
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		<title>
		By: Jon Atack		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1280584</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Atack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1280584</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1248467&quot;&gt;TheHoleDoesNotExist&lt;/a&gt;.

While those neurons do of course die off to be replaced, the template of memory that they create persists. I spend far too much time reading about the brain. Carl Sagan opined that the universe seen through the lens of science is so much grander than anything in religion and the same is true in brain science. I&#039;ve just finished Mlodinov&#039;s fine and supremely accessible Subliminal and I&#039;m past midway into Ramachandran&#039;s Tell-Tale Brain.
 I had similar &#039;cognitions&#039;: I left St Hill in 1977 with the assured conviction that the Sea Org was a paramilitary group without weapons but with distinct fascist tendencies. Now i see all totalitarian groups in the same light.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1248467">TheHoleDoesNotExist</a>.</p>
<p>While those neurons do of course die off to be replaced, the template of memory that they create persists. I spend far too much time reading about the brain. Carl Sagan opined that the universe seen through the lens of science is so much grander than anything in religion and the same is true in brain science. I&#8217;ve just finished Mlodinov&#8217;s fine and supremely accessible Subliminal and I&#8217;m past midway into Ramachandran&#8217;s Tell-Tale Brain.<br />
 I had similar &#8216;cognitions&#8217;: I left St Hill in 1977 with the assured conviction that the Sea Org was a paramilitary group without weapons but with distinct fascist tendencies. Now i see all totalitarian groups in the same light.</p>
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		<title>
		By: B4you		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251999</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B4you]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2015 01:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251999</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251981&quot;&gt;Bernie&lt;/a&gt;.

You welcome!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251981">Bernie</a>.</p>
<p>You welcome!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bernie		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251981</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2015 01:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251981</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251228&quot;&gt;B4you&lt;/a&gt;.

All of the experiences I had were out of the blue as well, just happenstance during an auditing session or the one I described in word clearing.  I know two people who exteriorized during TR0 or OTR0.  As a student auditor I audited a pc for whom the whole physical universe disappeared and she had to find her way back.  While this was happening to her, nothing out of the ordinary was happening at my end; I just waited about 5 minutes for her to open her eyes and speak.  I heard of a man who had the whole physical universe disappear on him and he freaked out.  I never did acid but my husband did it 2 or 3 times and he experienced an altered reality that made a huge impression on him.

But it seems that all these experiences, no matter the source, are very real to the people they happen to.    

Thanks for sharing your information.  I am happy you are out of the cult!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251228">B4you</a>.</p>
<p>All of the experiences I had were out of the blue as well, just happenstance during an auditing session or the one I described in word clearing.  I know two people who exteriorized during TR0 or OTR0.  As a student auditor I audited a pc for whom the whole physical universe disappeared and she had to find her way back.  While this was happening to her, nothing out of the ordinary was happening at my end; I just waited about 5 minutes for her to open her eyes and speak.  I heard of a man who had the whole physical universe disappear on him and he freaked out.  I never did acid but my husband did it 2 or 3 times and he experienced an altered reality that made a huge impression on him.</p>
<p>But it seems that all these experiences, no matter the source, are very real to the people they happen to.    </p>
<p>Thanks for sharing your information.  I am happy you are out of the cult!</p>
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		<title>
		By: flyonthewall		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[flyonthewall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250672&quot;&gt;Shorpy&lt;/a&gt;.

You&#039;ve been stewing on this for 2 days?  Wow.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250672">Shorpy</a>.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve been stewing on this for 2 days?  Wow.  <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: B4you		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251228</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B4you]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251228</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251157&quot;&gt;Bernie&lt;/a&gt;.

Not really much, since the only auditing i got on meter was int. rundown and Drug rnd. Then of course the infamous Objectives.
Most experiences i got was &quot;out of the blue&quot; and very real at the time.
Once i should coach someone on OT-TR0 with closed eyes. A sudden shift in position moved me out in space approaching a Green Planet (not the blue one we know) and i am felling like &quot;returning home&quot;. That was so real, like a post card, and i was jolted out of the &quot;incident&quot; and woke up, so to speak! We are back in 1984 and i was 23 and very excited about it because you where always running around trying to prove LRH bullshit. That was some of my first real &quot;hands on&quot; experience and i was sold! Today i have another explanation. Your chemistry in your brain can do this. LSD does it (Never tried) or you can put your self in a state where you actually dream during daytime (Daydreaming) You can mix dreaming and reality and claim in public that you are the incarnated black squid from another galaxy. Or you can wake up in bed and you dream is still going on, while you sit there and being confused about the thing until you realize that it&#039;s just a dream and it&#039;s safe to go to bathroom. That&#039;s how it works - it is not real!
But along the line of finding out it was all bullshit, i did some years in the cult, thinking; I don&#039;t care if it&#039;s bullshit if it works - I only see happy people in the Org! But even that, was bullshit - they where all in this weird bubble and in a Cult.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251157">Bernie</a>.</p>
<p>Not really much, since the only auditing i got on meter was int. rundown and Drug rnd. Then of course the infamous Objectives.<br />
Most experiences i got was &#8220;out of the blue&#8221; and very real at the time.<br />
Once i should coach someone on OT-TR0 with closed eyes. A sudden shift in position moved me out in space approaching a Green Planet (not the blue one we know) and i am felling like &#8220;returning home&#8221;. That was so real, like a post card, and i was jolted out of the &#8220;incident&#8221; and woke up, so to speak! We are back in 1984 and i was 23 and very excited about it because you where always running around trying to prove LRH bullshit. That was some of my first real &#8220;hands on&#8221; experience and i was sold! Today i have another explanation. Your chemistry in your brain can do this. LSD does it (Never tried) or you can put your self in a state where you actually dream during daytime (Daydreaming) You can mix dreaming and reality and claim in public that you are the incarnated black squid from another galaxy. Or you can wake up in bed and you dream is still going on, while you sit there and being confused about the thing until you realize that it&#8217;s just a dream and it&#8217;s safe to go to bathroom. That&#8217;s how it works &#8211; it is not real!<br />
But along the line of finding out it was all bullshit, i did some years in the cult, thinking; I don&#8217;t care if it&#8217;s bullshit if it works &#8211; I only see happy people in the Org! But even that, was bullshit &#8211; they where all in this weird bubble and in a Cult.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bernie		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251157</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bernie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 05:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251157</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250886&quot;&gt;B4you&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes, some of the experiences are hard to describe and it seems best to term them from a purely subjective view!  

One time during word clearing I looked up some ordinary word, I can&#039;t even remember the word, and I felt tingling at the back of my head like a slow landslide that lasted maybe 10 seconds.  For six weeks after that I was extroverted instead of my usual semi-introverted state.   

Thanks for sharing one of your weird experiences.  What else happened to you and from what, if you don&#039;t mind my asking.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250886">B4you</a>.</p>
<p>Yes, some of the experiences are hard to describe and it seems best to term them from a purely subjective view!  </p>
<p>One time during word clearing I looked up some ordinary word, I can&#8217;t even remember the word, and I felt tingling at the back of my head like a slow landslide that lasted maybe 10 seconds.  For six weeks after that I was extroverted instead of my usual semi-introverted state.   </p>
<p>Thanks for sharing one of your weird experiences.  What else happened to you and from what, if you don&#8217;t mind my asking.</p>
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		<title>
		By: daisy		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1251065</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[daisy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 01:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1251065</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1249987&quot;&gt;L. Wrong Hubturd&lt;/a&gt;.

I saw you, you are certainly not funny looking.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1249987">L. Wrong Hubturd</a>.</p>
<p>I saw you, you are certainly not funny looking.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ThetaBara		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-2/#comment-1250963</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ThetaBara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1250963</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[All I have is hope for Lori Hodgson. May her children come around.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I have is hope for Lori Hodgson. May her children come around.</p>
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		<title>
		By: B4you		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250886</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B4you]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1250886</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250165&quot;&gt;Bernie&lt;/a&gt;.

It&#039;s not unusual to be confused about this. I certainly was, because these &quot;stages&quot; was very real to me. I never went &quot;exterior&quot;, but as i would describe it; I went BIG/HUGE to the point where i should have my own postal code attached to me. And that&#039;s just one weird experience, that went on for days inside my head. Was it a hypnotic trance? maybe Glee of insanity - as LRH put it! That&#039;s how i look at it now. Your kinda &quot;detached&quot; from reality and living in a fluffy world. You have full control (like TC in a turtleneck) and everybody can see your are soooo happy!! I had a close friend who was on OT5 at the time and when he came out of his sessions, he would describe it as being &quot;Natural High!&quot;. There is nothing wrong with feeling good, but i rather don&#039;t wanna look like an ass at the same time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1250165">Bernie</a>.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not unusual to be confused about this. I certainly was, because these &#8220;stages&#8221; was very real to me. I never went &#8220;exterior&#8221;, but as i would describe it; I went BIG/HUGE to the point where i should have my own postal code attached to me. And that&#8217;s just one weird experience, that went on for days inside my head. Was it a hypnotic trance? maybe Glee of insanity &#8211; as LRH put it! That&#8217;s how i look at it now. Your kinda &#8220;detached&#8221; from reality and living in a fluffy world. You have full control (like TC in a turtleneck) and everybody can see your are soooo happy!! I had a close friend who was on OT5 at the time and when he came out of his sessions, he would describe it as being &#8220;Natural High!&#8221;. There is nothing wrong with feeling good, but i rather don&#8217;t wanna look like an ass at the same time.</p>
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		By: B4you		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-2/#comment-1250860</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B4you]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=27250#comment-1250860</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-2/#comment-1250293&quot;&gt;Bunker Buggy Betsy&lt;/a&gt;.

We just need to give them a &quot;little&quot; resistance so they would carry on, shooting them self in the foot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/12/11/jon-atack-scientologys-notion-of-case-gain-and-how-it-reinforces-the-prison-of-belief/comment-page-2/#comment-1250293">Bunker Buggy Betsy</a>.</p>
<p>We just need to give them a &#8220;little&#8221; resistance so they would carry on, shooting them self in the foot.</p>
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