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	Comments on: Jon Atack: The &#8216;Axioms&#8217; &#8212; L. Ron Hubbard&#8217;s attempt to make Scientology sound &#8216;sciencey&#8217;	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/</link>
	<description>TONY ORTEGA on SCIENTOLOGY</description>
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		<title>
		By: Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1227694</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1227694</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1227445&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

Oh okay sweeet!! Thank you sir.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1227445">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>Oh okay sweeet!! Thank you sir.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jon Atack		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1227445</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Atack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1227445</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213263&quot;&gt;Rick P. Jr. (aka &quot;fReSh&quot;)&lt;/a&gt;.

The new edition has the 60 previously paraphrased passages reinstated. Most of these are Hubbard quotations from unpublished materials - for instance his three teenage diaries that were put into evidence by Scn to prove his studies with gurus in the East (of course, they prove quite the opposite - the only reference to gurus is to the effect that the &#039;lamas had voices like bullfrogs&#039;), and various of his letters and harassment orders. For me, these quotations are the most important part of the book, because no matter how accurate outside accounts are nothing beats Hubbard himself, except for Hubbard beating himself...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213263">Rick P. Jr. (aka &#8220;fReSh&#8221;)</a>.</p>
<p>The new edition has the 60 previously paraphrased passages reinstated. Most of these are Hubbard quotations from unpublished materials &#8211; for instance his three teenage diaries that were put into evidence by Scn to prove his studies with gurus in the East (of course, they prove quite the opposite &#8211; the only reference to gurus is to the effect that the &#8216;lamas had voices like bullfrogs&#8217;), and various of his letters and harassment orders. For me, these quotations are the most important part of the book, because no matter how accurate outside accounts are nothing beats Hubbard himself, except for Hubbard beating himself&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1214583</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1214583</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1214469&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

I will look into it soon and let you know what I think. If I cant find it, maybe you could send a copy to rickpeavlerjr@hotmail.com.... Thanks for your insights Jon.

***RICK in INDIANAPOLIS***]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1214469">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>I will look into it soon and let you know what I think. If I cant find it, maybe you could send a copy to <a href="mailto:rickpeavlerjr@hotmail.com">rickpeavlerjr@hotmail.com</a>&#8230;. Thanks for your insights Jon.</p>
<p>***RICK in INDIANAPOLIS***</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jon Atack		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1214469</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Atack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1214469</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213164&quot;&gt;Rick P. Jr. (aka &quot;fReSh&quot;)&lt;/a&gt;.

l left the Tech within a few months of leaving the Org. It was evident that Hubbard was a compulsive liar. There was no need to look at any outside source, he so frequently contradicted himself. So if his maxim &#039;honesty is sanity&#039; were true then he was utterly insane. I used the Data Series (and, yep, I did the course) to unpick Scn and then the DS itself (for instance, if altered importance is significant, where is the scale for the importance of the principles of Scn? What is the order of importance?). 


Eventually, I looked head on at the principles of Scn - so raising communication always (Hubbard loved to used exclusive, absolute terms!) increases affinity? Evidently, this is not so - shouting and shooting don&#039;t make sane people like you more (and, shucks, reality isn&#039;t agreement. it&#039;s still there whether I perceive it or not). But it took me ten years of full time engagement to come up with a demonstrable notion of Hubbard&#039;s true intentions (or, indeed, true other intentions and counter intentions to those stated to we Dev-OTs) and that is recorded in my paper Never Believe a Hypnotist (a quote from Hubbard, who said that he&#039;d studied hypnosis from the age of 16 and used it to &#039;develop&#039; Dianetics, 20 years later). It is poorly written, for which I apologise, but it shakes even the stoutest of believers, in my experience. Let me know what you think, and excuse me for rushing you along the &#039;gradient scale&#039;. Sometimes there is a quantum leap from one state to another...


And, of course, there are the blogs right here at the Bunker, which are my attempt to disentangle the Hubbard web.


And thanks so much for your appreciation. It means a lot to me. There are so many snarling OSA moles and Indie trolls out there, so I value any positive input!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213164">Rick P. Jr. (aka &#8220;fReSh&#8221;)</a>.</p>
<p>l left the Tech within a few months of leaving the Org. It was evident that Hubbard was a compulsive liar. There was no need to look at any outside source, he so frequently contradicted himself. So if his maxim &#8216;honesty is sanity&#8217; were true then he was utterly insane. I used the Data Series (and, yep, I did the course) to unpick Scn and then the DS itself (for instance, if altered importance is significant, where is the scale for the importance of the principles of Scn? What is the order of importance?). </p>
<p>Eventually, I looked head on at the principles of Scn &#8211; so raising communication always (Hubbard loved to used exclusive, absolute terms!) increases affinity? Evidently, this is not so &#8211; shouting and shooting don&#8217;t make sane people like you more (and, shucks, reality isn&#8217;t agreement. it&#8217;s still there whether I perceive it or not). But it took me ten years of full time engagement to come up with a demonstrable notion of Hubbard&#8217;s true intentions (or, indeed, true other intentions and counter intentions to those stated to we Dev-OTs) and that is recorded in my paper Never Believe a Hypnotist (a quote from Hubbard, who said that he&#8217;d studied hypnosis from the age of 16 and used it to &#8216;develop&#8217; Dianetics, 20 years later). It is poorly written, for which I apologise, but it shakes even the stoutest of believers, in my experience. Let me know what you think, and excuse me for rushing you along the &#8216;gradient scale&#8217;. Sometimes there is a quantum leap from one state to another&#8230;</p>
<p>And, of course, there are the blogs right here at the Bunker, which are my attempt to disentangle the Hubbard web.</p>
<p>And thanks so much for your appreciation. It means a lot to me. There are so many snarling OSA moles and Indie trolls out there, so I value any positive input!</p>
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		<title>
		By: chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1214089</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1214089</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1213003&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

Capt Bill was &quot;on&quot; all the time, never saw him in any other character mood other than calm leader blustering type of figure.


Norman Starkey reminds me a little of Capt Bill, as Norman is also &quot;always on&quot; some kind of role like he&#039;s got like Capt Bill some past lives role he&#039;s played with LRH in past lives, like the 3 of them WERE all together in other space opera times together and I&#039;ll bet all 3 (well two are dead now, Bill and LRH) were completely into their whole track jobs saving this sector of the galaxy!


Capt Bill thought that the INCOMM microwave computer communication relay dish that was on top of the main building at the complex, it was put up in the mid to late 1980s, he thought it was some beacon method of the Marcabians that was brainwashing all of LA.

Capt Bill&#039;s writings ought be put in a volume with notes, so that it&#039;s not lost, as Capt Bill was a major Scientologist who had a big influence and truly is one of the logical conclusions of what Hubbard&#039;s space opera ideas lead to.

I wish he were alive, he&#039;d be a great influence to the whole Scientology atmosphere.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1213003">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>Capt Bill was &#8220;on&#8221; all the time, never saw him in any other character mood other than calm leader blustering type of figure.</p>
<p>Norman Starkey reminds me a little of Capt Bill, as Norman is also &#8220;always on&#8221; some kind of role like he&#8217;s got like Capt Bill some past lives role he&#8217;s played with LRH in past lives, like the 3 of them WERE all together in other space opera times together and I&#8217;ll bet all 3 (well two are dead now, Bill and LRH) were completely into their whole track jobs saving this sector of the galaxy!</p>
<p>Capt Bill thought that the INCOMM microwave computer communication relay dish that was on top of the main building at the complex, it was put up in the mid to late 1980s, he thought it was some beacon method of the Marcabians that was brainwashing all of LA.</p>
<p>Capt Bill&#8217;s writings ought be put in a volume with notes, so that it&#8217;s not lost, as Capt Bill was a major Scientologist who had a big influence and truly is one of the logical conclusions of what Hubbard&#8217;s space opera ideas lead to.</p>
<p>I wish he were alive, he&#8217;d be a great influence to the whole Scientology atmosphere.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1213265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

and freak show? I&#039;d have to agree with today&#039;s &#039;Corporate Scientology&#039; =/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>and freak show? I&#8217;d have to agree with today&#8217;s &#8216;Corporate Scientology&#8217; =/</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213263</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1213263</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

Hey Mr. Atack, is there a big difference between this old version of &quot;A Piece of Blue Sky&quot; vs. the newer re-release I have heard Tony promoting here @ the Bunker before???]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>Hey Mr. Atack, is there a big difference between this old version of &#8220;A Piece of Blue Sky&#8221; vs. the newer re-release I have heard Tony promoting here @ the Bunker before???</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1213164</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick P. Jr. (aka "fReSh")]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1213164</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998&quot;&gt;Jon Atack&lt;/a&gt;.

Well I will have to look into the new book. Reading Troublemaker &#038; Piece of Blue Sky at the moment. Look forward to more of your insights. I left the church roughly a month ago but still consider myself an independent (that doesnt believe every single thing about Scn.. mainly the OT levels)... time heals all tho. Im very open minded. Grateful for ppl like you, Tony, Rinder, and others!

 A True &#039;ML&#039;...
***RICK from INDIANAPOLIS***
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998">Jon Atack</a>.</p>
<p>Well I will have to look into the new book. Reading Troublemaker &amp; Piece of Blue Sky at the moment. Look forward to more of your insights. I left the church roughly a month ago but still consider myself an independent (that doesnt believe every single thing about Scn.. mainly the OT levels)&#8230; time heals all tho. Im very open minded. Grateful for ppl like you, Tony, Rinder, and others!</p>
<p> A True &#8216;ML&#8217;&#8230;<br />
***RICK from INDIANAPOLIS***</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jon Atack		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1213003</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Atack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1213003</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1209681&quot;&gt;chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03&lt;/a&gt;.

I really liked him, and we spent many hours together with him trying to bring me back into the fold. On the other hand, he had some vicious stories about his attacks on the psychs (he found the two who were at the heart of the conspiracy, back in the 70s in LA and drove them out of town, but sadly the rose perfume continues to rule the universe...). And those awful, awful songs - we all live only to die/ in our ships up in the sky...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-1/#comment-1209681">chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03</a>.</p>
<p>I really liked him, and we spent many hours together with him trying to bring me back into the fold. On the other hand, he had some vicious stories about his attacks on the psychs (he found the two who were at the heart of the conspiracy, back in the 70s in LA and drove them out of town, but sadly the rose perfume continues to rule the universe&#8230;). And those awful, awful songs &#8211; we all live only to die/ in our ships up in the sky&#8230;</p>
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		By: Jon Atack		</title>
		<link>https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1212998</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Atack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tonyortega.org/?p=26433#comment-1212998</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1209233&quot;&gt;Rick P. Jr. (aka &quot;fReSh&quot;)&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for taking the time to let me know and I&#039;m glad that the tome is going down well. I have a new book - which is not actually about the clut for once - out soon. it is called Opening Minds and is about how the trap works, whether in Scn or radicalisation. I&#039;ve also had a preview of Chris Shelton&#039;s excellent upcoming work. Scn is a fascinating freak show, eh?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://tonyortega.org/2015/10/31/jon-atack-the-axioms-l-ron-hubbards-attempt-to-make-scientology-sound-sciencey/comment-page-2/#comment-1209233">Rick P. Jr. (aka &#8220;fReSh&#8221;)</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to let me know and I&#8217;m glad that the tome is going down well. I have a new book &#8211; which is not actually about the clut for once &#8211; out soon. it is called Opening Minds and is about how the trap works, whether in Scn or radicalisation. I&#8217;ve also had a preview of Chris Shelton&#8217;s excellent upcoming work. Scn is a fascinating freak show, eh?</p>
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