I too am saddened by the damage caused by the machinations and logorrhea from LRH, and the sneaky diminutive midget. I also feel sad when I hear many of the stories, but I’m also glad to hear of people waking up and leaving the cult, and that the decline appears to be accelerating.

There is always a cost to joining, because of the isolation from the rest of the world, but the cost of leaving, after years of conditioning and dependency on Co$ as well as the loss of assets, can be extremely disruptive and disheartening to a person. The ex-$cientologist is broke, friendless outside of Co$, and filled with misinformation, paranoia, and counter-intuitive conditioning that doesn’t help them to form normal relationships. The good news is that they can outgrow all of that. The bad news is that the scars can last a long time.

I think that Tony keeps his sense of humor because he lives in the real world, and that there’s so much of an absurdist tinge to everything Co$ does, evil as it is. There is also a small but stalwart community here that supports him. (Small in relation to the rest of the world.) The rewards to Tony and the rest of us are in seeing people grow out of their Co$ experience, and their subsequent blossoming.

While I consider the Indies to be foolish, I understand their reluctance to leave a whole cosmology they’ve come to live by for many years. I don’t know if their ultimate hope is that when Co$ ultimately collapses that they can take over, or that they are simply unwilling to take the bold step to say that the self-created god, LRH was full of shit.
Derek’s story is one of the tragedies that come out of an inflexible, unrealistic, movement that explains everything in terms of a cosmology and morality set down by a rigid patriarch. Deviation from that standard is not tolerated, and is considered hostile, even though it is
completely natural in the rest of the world. Derek has had the very essence of his being attacked and rejected by his family, yet he has survived and has little of the bitterness he is entitled to, IMO.

I don’t think Derek’s got a mean bone in his body in spite of all of what’s been done to him. He brings out the protectiveness in me.

I’m not that tolerant of others’ religions. My attitude is that if someone’s ritual is to dance naked in the middle of the street with bat guano on their head, that’s their business. On the other hand, if someone tries to intrude on my life, or force themselves on others, or act with a sense of entitlement, or abuse people, it raises my hackles. Every belief has its own inconsistencies or counter-arguments, as well as history of thought, and if I don’t know them, I usually know where to find them.

While I’m somewhat hostile to fundamentalist Christianity, I also understand where someone is coming from, because that’s where I came from. I also have sympathy, but I know much more about (or know where to find) cogent reasons for their beliefs. I also know that one can’t
prove or disprove belief.

Thanks for the link. Bob #1’s flip comment touched off a really good discussion, in which uninformed – and CCHR-disinformed – opinions were met with current realities contributed by Bunkerites having actual knowledge and/or direct experience of the issues. It was valuable, I think, to get both sides on the record. To an onlooker, the reality-based comments stand out and plainly win the day, and the weakness of the CCHR-disinformed viewpoint is evident.

As the thread wrapped up, Chocolate Velvet said to Bob #1, “Disagreement, sometimes forceful and contentious, sometimes cordial, is a powerful antidote to shared delusion. So, keep putting your POV in the mix, please. You are always respectful, and open to others, and that can’t be easy when you voice an unpopular perspective…. Much better for us to maintain a vital discussion, with all the disparate views at the table. Ultimately, it makes our collective voice more credible. That’s the kind of stuff that matters to me here.”

As you rightly say, “no one truly knows the intentions of someone else’s statements, opinions or motivations except for that individual.” Nevertheless we humans constantly strive to discern one another’s intentions and motivations. Trying to get better at it, we discuss our perceptions / guesses / insights with each other and with friends and advisors. The success or failure of the decisions we make for ourselves often hinges upon how accurately we have made such judgments. Lacking perfect knowledge, at some point we have to assume our judgments and fallback plans are adequate, make the decision and go forward.

In trying to discern another’s intentions and motivations, reasonable people may differ. Vive la différence!

I have to admit, that there are many days that I am in full crying mode when I read the content of Tony’s articles and the commentary here. There is so much misery and there are so many people suffering. It is also absolutely unnecessary for any of this evil to happen in the first place, and most importantly, to continue. .

I don’t know how Tony is able to do what he does, and so well. He is remarkable in that sense and I am impressed that he is able to keep his sense of humor well fueled and always at the ready!

I am so proud of Derek Bloch. He has gone through a great deal in his life and he is such a fine young man. I can’t tell you how much he has taught me about appreciating the people in my life and not waiting or hesitating to let people know how much I appreciate them. You never know when you won’t have that opportunity again.

Thank you for being respectful of my religious beliefs. I appreciate it a great deal and I am so grateful to everyone here who has been so kind and courteous toward me. Small kindnesses can fill the heart with enormous warmth!

Give’em heck, M.K.!

Thanks for your reply! You are quite amazing, I hope you know! You are a wise man, grundoon. 😉

I think that the important thing for all of us to keep in mind is that no one truly knows the intentions of someone else’s statements, opinions or motivations except for that individual person. We can all assume that we know, but it is prudent not to speak for others, especially when we don’t actually know them. Fair enough?

I didn’t mistake the gentleman you referenced with those other similar named posters, though. The accounts for the dopplegangers are new and didn’t even exist then for the posts that I was speaking about and were from his account. If I am wrong about any of my comments, then I offer my sincere apologies. You are right. It is propaganda we are fighting; not the individual.

Here’s one example, with reference to his comments regarding babies being given antidepressants by psychiatrists, as well as a comment stating that depression is not really a proven disease. The comments were in response to an article by Tony about babies being audited at the Mace-Kingsley ranch. I didn’t read it at the time it was written, since it was during Lent, but I left a comment a few minutes ago on the thread.

http://tonyortega.org/2013/03/03/sunday-funnies-get-your-infant-audited/

I hope it is sufficient enough without me having to re-read every post on every article at this site to pull up examples. It’s 1:10 a.m. here, and I have fallen asleep about 3 or 4 times while trying to type this message!

You are a good man, grundoon. You have genuine compassion and empathy for others that serves as an example for all of us to strive to emulate. Thank you for your kind words!

Nice post, thanks grundoon.

How often does polite and respectful (and well researched) discussion like this happen on the Internet? This could be a first, but I’m not surprised it happened in this particular forum….

Why thank you!

“Peter Cockerell” says he joined Anon’s raid on the Mountain View org, but without a mask, and he says “Peter Cockerell” is his real name. I guess that makes him a twice-failed Anon.

What does any of this have to do with A to E?

And for your information, noob, I know clueless better than anyone.

Lulz yet?

I would never have thought of the parallels if you hadn’t made the suggestion. Good insight!