Yo, you are the one who addressed us as ‘party people’.

I’d assume you’d know an internet meme that’s been around since at least 2008.

Weak troll is not only weak but seriously lacking in modern internet culture.

Dear bm,,

Google and watch the old 1980s, 1970s, and even the 1968 TV shows on Scientology. Go to Xenu.TV

A whole lot of history straight from dozens of ex members and old friends of Hubbard’s, plus his son, and great grandson, speak their minds freely.

Then google “Secret Library of Scientology” and read the great papers done by Australia, New Zealand and the links to the old books. I like Malko’s book a lot, 1970!

There’s decades of writing on Hubbard, that make all the major conclusions that only books can make.

Russell Miller’s great book is on that site.

There’s 6 months of reading and TV videos, on these two above sites, easily.

Chuck Beatty
ex lifer staffer Scientology (1975-2003)
I was mainly involved with training staff and compiling Hubbard’s staff rules writings for staff duties.

“BM – I found your detailed reply to me, and I read it, and understood what you told me.

Thank you.”

RESPONSE: Likewise.

“Who said that Scientologists were smaller, weaker, and less savvy than you or me?

I sure didn’t.”

RESPONSE: your POV that people involved in CO$ are being victimized presupposes that they are less than you, that they are victimized but you are not, and that you know better then them. That you are in some superior elevated position to see things more clearly.

“I believe that Scientologists inside Scientology deserve the same protections of their civil rights that I have outside Scientology. I am very definitely saying they are equal citizens to me, and so they deserve the same protections that I have.”

RESPONSE: I was not talking about civil rights whatsoever. I was not saying they had less civil rights or that you were saying they had less civil rights than you. What I was saying was that you are promoting a view that you, in your great wisdom know what is REALLY going on and they do not, that the evil puppet masters are controlling them but the evil puppet masters are not controlling you and that you in your largess are in position to inform them of what they should do and that they are being conned and used etc.

“In fact, that’s my whole point. Scientology violates the civil rights of Scientologists.”

RESPONSE: Says you. How come smart healthy informed educated savvy powerful free thinking awesome adult individuals who choose to be involved with the co$ and who are happy with their choice do be involved with Scientology do not say that Scientology is violating their civil rights? but you do say that? I take the case that you believe that you have a superior more correct view of reality then them. = they are weaker smaller less smart than yourself.

“No one in a free society respects the civil rights of others should stand by and watch their fellow citizens (Scientologists) be treated this way without doing something.”

RESPONSE: Loaded assertion is too loaded to respond to.

“You may have seen Mark Rathbun’s deposition that was entered into a recent lawsuit by attorney Ken Dandar.”

RESPONSE: I did not.

” If so, you would know that there is evidence that the Church of Scientology spent 28-30 million dollars to corrupt the legal system in Pinellas country Florida.’

RESPONSE: Most ex scientologist occur as book selling attention seeking bitter opportunists to me and I do not trust them. If a person can be shown to be profiting in any way from their vendetta, whether it is monetary ( book sales ) or attention as in Tory Magoos case, or if they are too bent on proving that they are right and vilifying the object of their complaint, I take the case that they are not to be trusted. I am not sure where Rathburn falls into these categories or if he does. I got the impression he was enjoying the internet attention just a little to much to be trusted. But I do not know the guy or his agenda to be honest.

“Do you think they would spend any money to corrupt the legal system in California, or someplace else where they wanted to suppress the rights of Scientologists?”

I have no idea. Humans do corrupt f–ked up things, really stupid things, and fight to protect their self interests in small and excessive ways. BP Petrolium comes to mind. I would not exempt CO$ from being capable of this behaviour. In time, if they have crossed the line, it will be exposed and there will be appropriate consequences. I strongly dislike the co$ based on what I have heard. If they are operating wit no integrity, their days are numbered. This stuff catches up to you.

“I think they would. I was a Scientologist for 16 years, and I know what Hubbard taught Scientologists about civil rights.”

RESPONSE: I see. That is interesting.

Do you take responsibility for your choice to enter and exit Sceintology on your own terms and do you see yourself as the author of your entire co$ experience, the good, the bad and the ugly? Or do you spread the responsibility around to others where it is convenient to do so?

Do you view people’s involvement in life, in all that happens in college, all that happens to one when they are on a sports team, working in a in family businesses for many years, in romantic relationships, when hanging out with old friends, and at one’s new job at Walmart or McDionalds as all 100% voluntary? Or would you concede that much of life appears to waver back and forth in ways that seem voluntary one moment and involuntary the next?

“Do you think that it might be possible that the reason no police cars are screeching into Int Base in California”

RESPONSE: Anything is possible. I can imagine them doing exactly what you are suggesting they do. Having said that, if you have proof to back up your suspicions/allegations, now would be the time to turn it into the proper authorities.

“to arrest people involuntarily held in the RPF there”

RESPONSE: I take it you meant ‘arrest people holding other people involuntarily’. I am pretty sure people involved with co$ are there of their own choosing. They have chosen to play a very involving high stakes game, it is not a knitting class or once a month book reading club. From the outside it appears to be an intense community and not a willy nilly part time thing.

“is because the legal system has been corrupted in Riverside County,”

RESPONSE: anything is possible.

“just as it was in Pinellas county?”

RESPONSE: I am uneducated about “Pinellas county”

“If you can picture this as a possibility,”

RESPONSE: anything is possible.

“can you see why”

“when a Scientologist’s voluntary participation in Scientology turns involuntary –”

RESPONSE: I reject this point of view.

“something should be done about it – even if it is only writing posts about it on the Internet to keep people aware that this is going on?”

RESPONSE: whatever gives people the greatest peace of mind, happiness and expresses the contribution they are up to making is what they should do IMO.

“Alanzo”

BM

BM – I found your detailed reply to me, and I read it, and understood what you told me.

Thank you.

I have another question for you, though:

I asked you:

““Can you assume that viewpoint from a legal and civil rights perspective and evaluate the RPF from there?”

YOUR RESPONSE: I could assume that viewpoint but what is key here ( for me) as I mentioned, is that I do not buy into your community’s point of view that portrays individuals who choose to participate voluntarily in any aspect of Scientology culture as being smaller, weaker and less savvy than you and me or as victims of some law breaking puppet master or as powerless trapped children being told what to do.”

Who said that Scientologists were smaller, weaker, and less savvy than you or me?

I sure didn’t.

I believe that Scientologists inside Scientology deserve the same protections of their civil rights that I have outside Scientology. I am very definitely saying they are equal citizens to me, and so they deserve the same protections that I have.

In fact, that’s my whole point. Scientology violates the civil rights of Scientologists. No one in a free society respects the civil rights of others should stand by and watch their fellow citizens (Scientologists) be treated this way without doing something.

You may have seen Mark Rathbun’s deposition that was entered into a recent lawsuit by attorney Ken Dandar. If so, you would know that there is evidence that the Church of Scientology spent 28-30 million dollars to corrupt the legal system in Pinellas country Florida. Do you think they would spend any money to corrupt the legal system in California, or someplace else where they wanted to suppress the rights of Scientologists?

I think they would. I was a Scientologist for 16 years, and I know what Hubbard taught Scientologists about civil rights.

Do you think that it might be possible that the reason no police cars are screeching into Int Base in California to arrest people involuntarily held in the RPF there is because the legal system has been corrupted in Riverside County, just as it was in Pinellas county?

If you can picture this as a possibility, can you see why when a Scientologist’s voluntary participation in Scientology turns involuntary – something should be done about it – even if it is only writing posts about it on the Internet to keep people aware that this is going on?

Alanzo

@Alanzo,

This accounting just does not ad up. Not one bit:

http://nomoreliesscn.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-rpf-scientologys-prison-camp.html

“Scientology upper management will tell you that is is a voluntary work/study/religious retreat to help rehabilitate Sea Organization members and get them back up to where they can be productive members of the group. It is actually a prison camp to punish those Sea Organization members that have angered management in some way or another. Some are thrown into this work/punishment detail just because they wish to leave the Sea Org or Scientology.”

The word “police” cannot be found in the entire write up and the word “kidnaping” is never used and the words “against my will” are also never used. It is all mischievous victimish rewriting of history with a blatant and convenient absence of any expression of personal responsibility and involvement in the description of the events. As if they are talking about little kids/children. Like “they made me do it….” And ALL these adults play along and do not call the police, oh? Really? On what planet does that ever happen?

People do choose to buy into certain extreme cultures (e.g S & M culture would be an extreme that makes the point) and go along and choose to role play being in certain roles but then, once they have left the setting they chose to enter in the first place, they want to retell/reframe it as a victim victimizer angle in which they somehow were no longer adults and had no power . I do not buy it. You might, other’s might but it sounds too weak IMO.

“Well I can certainly understand and respect your viewpoint, BM, as it is refreshingly without personal attacks on me, and you stick to your points. Thank you.”

RESPONSE: Likewise

“I also understand what you say when you are talking about the viewpoints allowed in the anti communities.”

“But the viewpoint that I was using was that of the legal framework and civil rights that are recognized in our society, which are not recognized in Scientology society.”

RESPONSE: I see that.

“For instance, it is considered illegal to hold a person anywhere against their will, ”

RESPONSE: Yes it is and there is no grey area grey here. This type of behaviour will usually end up in incarceration, today more so than any other time in the past. It is not tolerable.

“and first-hand reports are plentiful from people who wanted to leave the RPF but were routinely held against their will.

RESPONSE: Here is where the mischief starts. People can say anything. If this actually has occurred, there is no reason for people not to go to the police and we both know the police vehicles would be there so fast it would make our head spin. What is probably more accurate is that people enter into and participate in co$ activities of their own free will. Some cultures take themselves very seriously and are very intense, and yes they may look totally unattractive to outsiders looking in and unattractive to exes looking backwards unsatisfied with the experience. Those are the risks of entering into any high stakes games in life. It is not for me to tell people what risks to take of not take.

“I am not a judge or jury, ”

RESPONSE: Correct me if I am wrong Alanzo but I think you and your community here think you know more then the local judge and jury and that the local judge should be listening to you? Am I correct?

“but I think there is certainly enough evidence there for a warrant to arrest people for false imprisonment,”

RESPONSE: Where are the arrests?

And let’s steer clear of the convenient vague speculative 9/11, birther, illuminati type arguments. The co$ is under so much scrutiny, if they even farted in public there would ten of you on them. Bellyaching onlookers or impoverished disgruntled exes does not = laws being broken.

The “church” front aside, co$ is part of a multi billion $ self improvement business model and these days so many people dedicate all their recourses to these things and that is their choice. If they feel ripped off or conned in the end, tough luck. I know a lady who spends $500 a week in lottery tickets or people who spend that and more at casinos each week, and most smokers spend $5,000 – $6,000 a year in tobacco products. So what? That is their choice. Would I? F-ck no.

A guy strolls into a Zen monastery and implores the teacher there to take him as a student and to enlighten him. The teacher agrees and they enter into a student teacher model. The training might eventually include the ruthless unyielding teacher, acting, well, ruthless and unyielding. As the training gets more intense the student might reject the teaching and call the old man a dog and an abuser. One moment he was asking for the relationship and the next he was not. Such is life. Such are people. The student played a part, he was not kidnapped and forced into the monastery. And he left just as easy as he walked in, on his own two feet. And so it should be.

“That’s why I wanted you to learn about the RPF when you said that you didn’t know what that was. And the viewpoint that I was using to evaluate Scientology was one from knowing the bill of rights and other recognized laws concerning who can imprison people in our society and who can’t, and after what kind of due process has been met.”

“Can you assume that viewpoint from a legal and civil rights perspective and evaluate the RPF from there?”

RESPONSE: I could assume that viewpoint but what is key here ( for me) as I mentioned, is that I do not buy into your community’s point of view that portrays individuals who choose to participate voluntarily in any aspect of Scientology culture as being smaller, weaker and less savvy than you and me or as victims of some law breaking puppet master or as powerless trapped children being told what to do.

“I’m curious to know your opinion on that.”

Alanzo”

Alanzo

I wrote a detailed response that would not post and that I did not save.

Well I can certainly understand and respect your viewpoint, BM, as it is refreshingly without personal attacks on me, and you stick to your points. Thank you.

I also understand what you say when you are talking about the viewpoints allowed in the anti communities.

But the viewpoint that I was using was that of the legal framework and civil rights that are recognized in our society, which are not recognized in Scientology society.

For instance, it is considered illegal to hold a person anywhere against their will, and first-hand reports are plentiful from people who wanted to leave the RPF but were routinely held against their will. I am not a judge or jury, but I think there is certainly enough evidence there for a warrant to arrest people for false imprisonment,

That’s why I wanted you to learn about the RPF when you said that you didn’t know what that was. And the viewpoint that I was using to evaluate Scientology was one from knowing the bill of rights and other recognized laws concerning who can imprison people in our society and who can’t, and after what kind of due process has been met.

Can you assume that viewpoint from a legal and civil rights perspective and evaluate the RPF from there?

I’m curious to know your opinion on that.

Alanzo

page 6:

Hubbard’s claims in Dianetics are mentioned. These claims involved treating all organic psychosomatic illness, improved mental stability, and improved IQ.

I believe it should be noted that the claims are bogus, and in fact were tested, in some fashion by the Scientific community (NYU 1953 study archived on Andreas’ site).

Kent and Manca note that Hubbard introduced the e-meter to increase professional standing. I would like to that the e-meter was introduced, removed, and re introduced, and this was largely based on Hubbard and Volney Matheson arguing over the rights to the profits from such a machine.

Where are the docx for my addition? The Student Hat tapes have Hubbard on record discussing the removal of the e-meter, which was later reintroduced. There is a court case (Lahey?) discussing the high profitability of the e-meter, and there is video of Hubbard’s son clearly indicating in his opinion the e-meter was removed because of a rights to profit dispute with Matheson. Perhaps the docx are not sufficient to clearly make the case I’m making but they are suggestive.

page 7:

Kent writes:
“These last reviews demonstrated that, as far as many psychiatrists were concerned, no room or vacancy existed in psychiatry’s jurisdiction for Dianetics to enter.”

I should add there is a complete lack of scientific evidence behind Hubbard’s extraordinary claims. I argue that this was the main reason that Dianetics, and then Scientiology, received criticism from psychiatrists. I will also note that the Peck (December 1950) article points out that Hubbard attempted to publish an article on Dianetics in the American Journal of Psychiatry and was rejected.

That is my two-cents. Thanks for posting the article Tony. It is my opinion that you have very good coverage of this topic.

I would like to recommend Steve Wiseman’s skepticcamp talk from 2010. I believe he goes over the history and discusses the chronology of Dianetics, Hubbard wooing celebrates, and the release of near-modern mood drugs.

And the ADHD diagnosis is based on early 20th century observations of people with frontal lobe injuries who had symptoms that we now associate with ADD/ADHD.