SUPPORT THE UNDERGROUND BUNKER
You can either make a one-time donation to the site via Paypal...

...or you can subscribe and get billed monthly:

FOLLOW ME ON
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR
E-MAIL LIST
To join our e-mail list & get daily updates on new stories, e-mail us at newstory@tonyortega.org.
RSS Feed
Click here to add The Underground Bunker to your RSS Reader

An enduring myth in Scientology — that L. Ron Hubbard actually read your letters

jon_atack4Jon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than three years he’s been helping us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet.

Standing Order #1 is one of the enduring myths of Scientology. In 1961, Hubbard wrote: “Standing Order No.1 ‘All mail addressed to me shall be received by me’.” He added: “I am always willing to help. By my own creed, a being is only as valuable as he can serve others.”

In reality, letters to Hubbard had long been outsourced, as seen in a memorandum of March 9, 1953, and reissued in a bulletin of 24 January 1958. This apportioned certain responsibilities to the “Hubbard Communications Office Office of L. Ron Hubbard” [whole statement sic and rendered as written]. The first task of this office was: “The receipt and answering of correspondence addressed to myself, some of which is personal, much of which is to the interest of the general operation.”

Putting aside that lovely phrase “the general operation,” it is clear that the task of responding to Hubbard’s mail – whether personal or not – devolved onto underlings from the very outset of Scientology.

Perhaps Hubbard revised this practice in 1961, I hear you say, and at least “received” the mail thereafter, even if he didn’t actually read or respond to it (we should be precise, after all)?

Well, no, because in 1965, he clarified the situation in two policy letters, the first on February 22nd, where he said that the SO #1 line “is watched and kept in order by the Executive Director.”

On September 17, that same year, Hubbard issued “Executive Letter Unit” which tells us that this new unit: “consists of a knowledgeable person who can answer SO #1 type mail…in very small orgs this is done in its entirety by the LRH Communicator.”

Standing Order #1 was posted prominently in the Orgs when I was a member. Like most Scientologists (and possibly all), I wrote to Hubbard and for the first few years imagined that he answered my letters. I was very young and evidently gullible (I’m fairly old now, but evidently still gullible). Then, in 1981 I received a letter from “Ron,” but with an initialed signature.

 
atacklrhletter0a

 
In the same envelope came an Executive Directive written by Laurel Sullivan “on behalf of L. Ron Hubbard.”

“Your Letters to Ron” not only tells us that Hubbard “has a professional background in about 29 different professions” but also that “a pool of secretaries has been set up and added to over the years to assist Ron in the handling of his mail. He has endeavored, whenever time permits, to stay abreast of his mail and to see letters individually, but due to volume and his research and writing projects it is not always possible.”

 
atacklrhletter2

 
I wrote to Laurel Sullivan, who assured me that the SO #1 notice was under revision, and that “communication as from him should not be invalidated…”

 
atacklrhletter

 
It took a year and a half for Hubbard to wake up to the lack of mail. On May 10, 1982, an Executive Directive told us that “the other day” Hubbard had “suddenly noticed there were only two mail bags for the week.” He was “informed that earlier [16 months earlier, as we’ve seen], an unauthorized person [his senior public affairs director], using my lines, had inferred [!] I did not ever see your mail. I almost wept.”

 
atacklrhletter3

 
The fake “Ron” signatures on the letters were no longer initialed and most Scientologists continued to write to the Commodore with their “wins” and their quibbles, and, no doubt increasingly, their complaints.

Hana Whitfield added a fascinating gloss to this tale at the Getting Clear conference in Toronto. She told us that as Commodore’s Staff 1, she was in charge of the SO #1 line. At one point, she was so overwhelmed by the volume of correspondence that she used Hubbard’s secret overboarding technology to overcome the problem and heaved the lot into the sea.

I cannot help but think about all of those earnest missives to the Commodore floating out across the Mediterranean as a metaphor for the lost hopes of Scientology.

— Jon Atack

 
THE BUNKER: We will just point out the additional fact that while this was happening, in 1981 and 1982, Hubbard was in total seclusion with Pat and Annie Broeker. They had gone into hiding in February 1980, and they spent some time in an apartment in Newport Beach, for example, before settling at the ranch near Creston, California in 1983. So the idea that Hubbard was actually receiving bags of mail each week at this time seems a bit far-fetched to us. As John Brousseau explained to us, during this time getting any kind of communication at all between Hubbard and the rest of the Scientology world involved secret late-night meetings at random locations in Southern California, set up between Pat Broeker and David Miscavige. So you might keep that in mind if you have a letter from “Hubbard” dated after 1980.

 
——————–

Chris Shelton interviews Jon Atack

Says Chris: “We cover a lot of stuff about his Open Minds Foundation and then get into Scientology and talking about its membership and what the Church is doing these days that is resulting in its inevitable end. As you know, talking to Jon is always interesting and educational.”

 

 
——————–

Mike Rinder on Scientology’s playbook against critics

“This is perhaps the most important thing I have put onto my blog,” Mike Rinder announced last night as he posted a comprehensive look at the strategies that the Church of Scientology relies on to attack its critics (such as Leah Remini), and the writings of L. Ron Hubbard that guide them.

Here, in one place, is pretty much everything a journalist needs to understand why Scientology expends so many resources on stalking people, running complex operations against them, and tries to “ruin them utterly” just as Hubbard instructs.

Make sure you bookmark this one, and have it handy when someone suggests that Scientology simply acts like any other “church.”

 
——————–

Not paying taxes is fun!

Back in the late 1980s through the early aughts, your proprietor made several treks out to a great annual event known as RTMC, the Riverside Telescope Makers Conference, which is held near Big Bear, California over Memorial Day weekend. We’d meet up with old friends who made their own telescopes, pick up spare parts, and attend some fun talks. We even gave a talk one year about a fellow we’d written about. Those were fun times.

At a couple of those events in the 1990s, we met a group of comical guys who would set up a booth and hand out fliers. They were a dozen or more like-minded people who had three things in common: They loved telescopes, of course, but they were also musicians (acoustic guitar, mostly), and they all golfed. And so they had started up a club they called GAMA — the Golfing Astronomers Musicians Association.

And the reason they would set up a booth and hand out literature at RTMC, they explained, was that it met the “educational outreach” requirement of their bylaws. See, they weren’t just a group of guys who all golfed, played guitars, and looked through telescopes, they had actually formalized the club with the IRS. Yes, GAMA was a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization!

We can still remember laughing with them about it as they explained how it helped them raise money from donors who could write those donations off — all completely within the law — so they could then further their interests of hitting tee shots, stargazing, and strumming songs. (While generously lubricated, of course.)

This old memory came rushing back to us yesterday when we learned that Merrell Vannier‘s venture, the First Independent Church of Scientology, received tax-exempt status from the IRS on October 31.

We received some panicked messages from folks who wondered if this was yet another example of the IRS caving to Scientology, like it did in 1993 when the agency granted tax-exempt status to the Church of Scientology.

Um, no. While Merrell is obviously thrilled that FICoS has achieved this distinction, this is not in the same realm as granting tax-exempt status to a worldwide racket pulling in hundreds of millions of dollars a year. It’s not really very hard for a small organization — especially one that calls itself a church — to get tax-exempt status if it takes the time to fill out some forms correctly. And it’s not really very controversial either. If the goofballs at GAMA could do it, after all…

A more important milestone for Vannier and FICoS is whether they’re going to get a trademark on their name, which makes use of the word “Scientology” that the Church of Scientology claims it owns. And on that score, Vannier suffered another recent setback, which our attorney Scott Pilutik is going to help us understand in a future story.

For now, we send our congratulations to the First Independent Church of Scientology for not having to pay taxes. But they can have their renegade, non-sanctioned e-meters; we’d rather play a round of 18 holes and then sit under the stars with a fat reflector aimed at the sky, with a guitar or two plucking out a plaintive ballad nearby under the Milky Way.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on November 5, 2016 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback, Kindle, and audiobook versions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

Share Button
  • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

    I have never posted on this site but read it every day. I had to make a comment on this one as it is close to my life as an LRH messenger. I can tell you all that LRH never read any of the SO#1 letters. I was one of his messengers so I know for a fact. He especially would never have received anything from 1980 onwards.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Hi, Lost!

      Welcome, and thanks for the insight.

      Couch? Cocktail? Kitteh? Caek?

      Glad you’re out.

    • daisy

      So nice to meet you. Good first post. So glad you are out.

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        Thanks. I have 1 son who has disconnected from me and then 19 other family members. Really sucks, but could not put up with the charade anymore.

        • daisy

          We have a number of exes who are disconnected from their loved ones. It is an evil nasty cult. I cannot imagine how much it must hurt . I will include you in my prayers ( thoughts for the atheists ) along with all my bunker mates

          • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

            Thanks!

          • Juicer77

            Seconded.

        • Xique

          I see now , this sucks. I have one family member lost inside…. sucks.

    • What’sup

      Hi and welcome. I’m sure our proprietor would love an email from you with any tales you might be willing to share.

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        I’m sure he would…LOL!

    • mikecrosby

      I’m one that’s never been in Scientology, but sounds like you go way back. Were you with LRH on his ship back in the old days?

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        Yes from 1973 until 1982. Went thru all the turmoil of 81/82.

        • Liberated

          I love your courage…. being around like-minded people is the best thing you can do.

          The bunker has a way of making an ex-scientologist feel at home.

    • Spike Robinson

      Welcome! thank you for coming forward!

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        Thanks!

        • Spike Robinson

          You are all heroes in my book.

      • Draco

        Hey, Spike! I really enjoyed Chris’ interview with your boss. That wicked sense of humour keeps popping up. I hope they do more together.

        • Spike Robinson

          I hope so too, Draco. I’ve always told Chris that he’s really got a relatable style, a good, no-drama, no-nonsense show ethic, and, most importantly, keeps on questioning. And, well, Jon is, no doubt about it, just amazing to listen to. So when they get together, it’s really a treat.

          And, more importantly, the topics we’re trying to get more people to talk about are important ones. Humanity has GOT to stop thinking in terms of us vs. them, black and white thinking, and we absolutely HAVE to start educating our children to think independently, rationally, and with respect for each other and their differences.

          Okay, off the soapbox, me… 😉

          • Draco

            THIS: “Humanity has GOT to stop thinking in terms of us vs. them, black and white thinking, and we absolutely HAVE to start educating our children to think independently, rationally, and with respect for each other and their differences.”

            You look fine on that soap box!

            • Spike Robinson

              Awww, shux. (blushes)

    • Draco

      Welcome, Lowie. Hope to see lots more of you here 🙂

      • LongtimeLurker

        Draco up early for Sunday…

        • Draco

          I know. Woke up with a pounding head and start of migraine 🙁

          • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

            Oh no! Get better. When I get one I take an Excedrin. for Migraines, works like a charm.

            • Draco

              Thanks, Lowie. I will look into it…got lots to do today, so don’t need this right now.

            • Juicer77

              Feel better soon. If you need reschedule anything so you can rest, do it. Hugs. Have you tried the binaural beats videos? The science behind it is sketchy, but for some reason (placebo effect?) it really helps when I have a nasty headache. This one is particularly good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUN352mQsPs

            • Draco

              Thanks Juicer. Never heard of this, but will give it a try…

            • Chee Chalker

              I’ve never heard of this either, but am definitely going to give it a try
              Thank you for this!

          • LongtimeLurker

            Ah crap, girl.

            You got anything from Big Pharma that might help?

            Someone to bring you nice things?

            • Draco

              I always have stuff from Big Pharma. Did the “no drugs” thing for migraines just one to many times when I was still in scn. After a night of severe vomiting, excruciating pain and being convinced I was going to die of exploding head, I swore never again.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Good. Med up!

              Have only had a couple of migraines (and not that bad I suspect), hope you feel better.

            • Draco

              Thanks, Lurker.

            • Liberated

              Yes, med up.
              Why suffer for L Ron, he was a junkie.

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        Thanks Draco. Off to bed now, but just had to make that comment.

        • Draco

          Sleep tite. XXX

    • grundoon

      Lowie, welcome! Glad you are here!

    • grundoon
      • LongtimeLurker

        Wait…really?

        You’re all over this Scientology bidness!

    • Here is a Kitteh for you F5 https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d3a66ffd626d52650005b6d243b449564c4e2fbf1dca69f789ff23ba5d250967.jpg
      It’s a very Angry kitteh! Thanks for posting this, important Gem.

    • OOkpik

      Welcome. Lowie, and congratulations for extracting yourselves and your middle son from the gaping maw of the Chirch.

      Steady as she goes, sweetheart. Here’s praying that your Lost Son will find his way to reason–and home, soon.

      Looking forward to reading more from you here at the Bunker. <3

    • Juicer77

      Welcome, Lowie. Thank you for sharing.

    • ExCult.Jan

      Welcome!

    • Xique

      Lost my son sounds sad. I’m sorry.

    • Bert Allen

      Thanks for the first hand information. Welcome to the Bunker.

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Good to hear from you Lost, thanks for joining us here and keep in touch. We do care.

    • Jon Atack

      Thanks for commenting. If you’d like to tell me more, please ask Tony for my email.

      • Lois Reisdorf (Lowie)

        Hi Jon, my stories are being told on Mike Rinders site,

        • Jon Atack

          A good place for them. I was concerned lest there is anything I might be able to do to help. Let me know through Tony if I can.

  • Liberated

    OT… Bill Murray is on SNL.

  • LongtimeLurker

    OT
    80s Australian music because it’s 12:37 in the am, NY time.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c53mr1IDPHA

    • What’sup

      Brand new Aus music. Outta Melbourne just like you.

      Tune! https://youtu.be/GDBqxBbdWS8

      • LongtimeLurker

        Noice! Also, rescued cats!

        (Originally outta north western Queensland, but let’s try and forget that)

        • What’sup

          You or her?

          • LongtimeLurker

            Me.

            Haven’t we shared this pain?

            Grew up (partly) in Mt Isa.

            • What’sup

              Oh yeah. My bad.

            • LongtimeLurker

              No, why the hell would you remember?

              I just didn’t want to bore you with it again.

              S’all good.

        • Liberated

          Speaking of rescued cats, one of the kitties I feed every day (the friendliest one) is sleeping under my dining room table.
          It’s chilly tonight and he/she came inside and is asleep.
          I don’t know what to do. Should I go to bed and let it be, or put her/him out with sibs?

          • LongtimeLurker

            Awwww.

            Well…I guess there’s 2 main things to consider.

            1 – if it wants to go back out, will you hear it meowing or scratching? And if you do, will getting up ruin your night?

            2 – if it makes a little kitty mess somewhere (which it might not, it may just sleep through to morning) will that ruin your tomorrow?

            If you’re okay with those possibilities I’d let him/her have some warmth.

            Of course you may be opening the metaphorical door for a whole lot more kitteh in your future…

            • Liberated

              None of these things bother me…I am a cat care veteran.

              This is my cat-‘Nam.

            • LongtimeLurker

              They wouldn’t worry me either. ; )

              Do it!

          • LongtimeLurker

            I completely forgot about the mother’s state of mind if she can’t find dining table kitteh…

            Hmmmm.

            • Liberated

              Mother cat dumped her litter on me a long time ago.
              She comes early for breakfast and goes on her way, she knows a sucker when she sees one.
              These guys are totally independent and living off me. Spoiled rotten.

            • LongtimeLurker

              Did she really? Lol. Outrageous!

  • Ok guys. The change in time has been canceled by the gubberment, so you have to forward your clocks one hour!

    • Liberated

      Not funny.

      • Hey there, you should keep that kitthey under your table!

        • Liberated

          Ok, but I know the little one will wake me up wanting out at who knows when.

        • Liberated
          • Works for me! If you can keep it etc?

          • LongtimeLurker

            Ah! My ovaries.

            • Liberated

              Now. Now.

            • Liberated

              The reason I said “hope this works, is cause this is only the second photo I’ve posted.
              Still learning. My entire life is trial and error.

            • LongtimeLurker

              It worked perfectly!

              I was just commenting on how cute she/he is.

            • Liberated

              Aww!

            • you really should keep him/her… what is the story?

            • Liberated

              My last cat died in 2013. He was my 5th.
              I’ve taken in every stray in the world, they’re treated so good, they are incredibly well-fed and live very long.
              My life has changed so much, that I was kind of relieved that I didn’t have a cat to feed.
              Then a few months later I see a wild cat, and I can’t stand for an animal to go hungry…and here we are.
              Mother cat brought her babies to me, and I feed them every day.
              You know what they say about “cat karma”
              If I could capture this cat,I would take her to the vet and fix her.
              You know, I didn’t have a litter box for 20 years, I really don’t want one now, but we’ll see.

            • ohh i see… you might have it both ways with a cat door..no litter box..and unsuspected visitors when it’s cold.

            • Liberated

              I’ve been there and back.
              Cat door is the best idea in the world, but impossible where I live.
              I’m gonna make a home out of a 30 gal. plastic container and inside a styrofoam cooler surrounded by hay. You cut a connecting hole and they enter thru that.

              I saw it on the internetz, so it must be true.
              I’ve got a cat-carrier out there now and it’s full, there’s even one on top.
              They’re already fat and spoiled.

            • aha!… now i got the picture 🙂 The place where i got Meme from, started just like that, they had 25 kittens, 4 adults and all they did was feeding them, he he!

            • LongtimeLurker

              Mine too.

              If you have any other tech questions (that aren’t super-hard) I’m happy to try and help.

            • Liberated

              Remember you said that.

          • Draco

            Your goose is cooked! He even matches the colour scheme.
            You have been adopted.

            • Liberated

              I know, rub it in why don’t cha.
              The odd thing is I’ve had a cat that looked identical to this one. It’s uncanny.
              His name was Pookie. It’s hard to believe this cat is feral and I’ve never touched him/her.
              Just goes to show ya what a little love and kindness will do.

            • ReallyMGM

              My two cats, separated by 20 years (and gender) I told my husband he was tempting fate when he picked #2 out.
              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/db549562a3db82b19d1db7014db0a824e7a3024fca23b71d985730b7d44414f5.jpg

            • ReallyMGM

              Lily’s litter of three was fostered by the director of our small city shelter. She got as good a start as my show puppies do. She even came with baby pictures. Who gets that with their shelter kitty! The director talked to us about our household, dogs temperaments, and recommended Lily or Mildred (her sister) /since they were outgoing and dog friendly. Lily is learns tricks with a clicker. (I have done it with dogs before). My old cat would have cut my throat.

          • ReallyMGM

            Very cute! GInger?

        • Liberated

          You know what’s odd, I’ve never actually touched this cat.
          I’ve tried, but she runs away. Since this kitty is the smallest of the litter, I’m thinking it’s a female.

          • ok a shy Cat!… Meme is like that towards strangers! No one but me, touches Meme 🙂

          • ReallyMGM

            Lots of food and toy rewards to get her to your hands. But don’t push too fast. SloMo with cats.

    • What’sup

      This is the reason CoS hate Rupert Murdoch with such a passion.

      • Didn’t he buy a lot of newspapers?

        • LongtimeLurker

          All. Of. Them.

          Also Fox News is his fault.

          • and he still hate the Cult? odd! There should be a lot more in the news then!

            • LongtimeLurker

              Yeah, that is interesting. Maybe because as an organisation they’re on the right (politically) in the “culture war”, so maybe Fox doesn’t want to confuse it’s viewers? I dunno.

      • LongtimeLurker

        I like it when 2 people I dislike fight.

    • LongtimeLurker

      Lol.

  • daisy

    NITE

    • Liberated

      Ta love.

  • LongtimeLurker
  • LongtimeLurker

    Gotta go do life. See you in the next post, fam.

    Love you all.

    • Newiga

      Your new avi cracked me up… 😀

    • salin

      Life calls – take the ick – and relish the “cool” – as each day tends to have both, if we pause enough to reflect upon the moments.

    • SarahDB

      What does the rest of the world think about our election craziness? It’s embarrassing! There are people hoarding guns ‘cuz they think Hillary will take them away. Hope we can heal after Tuesday, *sigh*

      • LongtimeLurker

        We’re … surprised?

        And a bit scared.

        I hope so too.

        • SarahDB

          my lifeline is this site
          http://fivethirtyeight.com/

          keeps me from being too depressed…but when she wins, she’s going to have a hell of a time governing…

          • LongtimeLurker

            I know, right? It’s lose lose. Grrr.

  • Liberated

    I just realized something…I’ve gained an extra hour of “Bunker Time”

    • Juicer77

      Watch out – you’ll get charged for FreeDownloader Debt. Hee hee.

      • 60 bunker coins

      • Liberated

        They can sue me.

        • Juicer77

          😉

      • we could give her an SP declare? like the rest of us!

    • salin

      Having a sleepless night. First time, ever, that I have found the ‘fall back’ of DLS to be a net negative.

      • Robert Hanna Moore

        Yep, Three, I mean four more hours of insomnia.

      • Liberated

        I know, it takes a bit to get used to.
        Why can’t we choose one time and keep it. I bet your dogs will be confused too.

        • salin

          The dog is way confused. I went to bed early, woke up in that ‘can’t get back to sleep’ way. Just to realize it wasn’t 2:30 – but 1:30 am.

      • DLS is the Why! we can’t have pretty Things!

  • TheMirrorThetan

    Just listening to Chris and Jon. Terrific Podcast.
    I think this is the best Sensibly Speaking podcast ever. (Not that Chris could do a poor episode even if he tried.)
    It is very interesting, particularly near the end, Jon talking about instead of protesting the orgs etc to concentrate on protesting the whales.

    • Draco

      That is a very interesting idea. Maybe an extra “where are all your children?” placard for Duggan?

    • OOkpik

      Yes, Jon and Chris knocked it out of the park on this one.

      One reservation I have is that it sounds to me like they were speaking of kids as adults in little bodies. Although I am all for guiding kids to be creative and develop a questioning attitude about what they see, hear and are told, it would be dangerous to grant them complete freedom to do what makes sense to them about everything. A child’s brain hasn’t finished its physical development until late teens and they certainly don’t yet have the capacity or experience to predict the possible consequences of, or even recognize, many dangerous situations. Not all influence is “undue”. Some control is essential to protect children until they at least have full cognitive capabilities. Letting youngsters make up their own minds about everything is about as dangerous as it gets. They can disagree all they want but obedience has its rightful place too.

      eta: Maybe I’m way off the mark about what they said. I think I’ll listen to it again too.

      P.S. Avikitteh looks pretty excited about Christmas already. lol

      • TheMirrorThetan

        They certainly did. I have to listen to this one again because I always miss things first time ’round.
        Avikitteh is the only Xmas decorating I bother to do. I dont have any kids and the cats would trash a tree within five minutes, especially Chloe the newbie, who climbs up everything, and hasn’t been taught not to. 🙂

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Jon’s discussion with Chris is just brilliant.

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    I am just now finally listening to Chris Shelton and Jon Atack -excellent, and thank you both for your insights and clarity.

  • downtherabbithole
    • Observer

      Yikes! I hope it heals quickly

      • downtherabbithole

        Thank you – Iam told a pin is in order – sigh….

        • Observer

          Those must have been some vicious leaves!

  • downtherabbithole

    67 degrees on this fine November day up here in the north country. I remember the Halloween when we had 29 (1991) inches of snow.

  • myrklix

    Telescopes, guitars & golf — well I never knew! That’s certainly an organization for me as long as, when it comes to golf, nobody minds a strikeout or two.

  • Gus_Cox

    Golfing Astronomers Musicians Association. OK, I’m sold, where do I sign up?!

  • SnowLeonard

    As a Scientology kid in the 70s and early 80s, I was regularly directed by my parents to write letters to Ron, posting them in a little wooden box on the wall at St. Hill. Sometimes I received a reply, and a couple of times I even got “signed” photos. Just a memory that popped up from this post.