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Scientology’s fiery ‘Guardian’ before she hooked up with Ron, and other gems from our readers

MarySueHS7

 
On Thursday, we had a special treat for you: A photograph of Diana Hubbard taken in 1982 that had sat in a photographer’s collection for 34 years before he dug it out and sent it to us. It was a stunning image of the daughter of L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology’s founder, and it produced a flood of really interesting memories of her from some of our commenters.

It also motivated several other people to dig out old photos of their own, and we’ve put a few of them together today to show you. And thank you again, to our great friends of the Underground Bunker.

Our first correspondent let us know that he’d managed to track down a 1951 college yearbook for the University of Texas at Austin, where a young woman named Mary Sue Whipp graduated that year. Says our sleuth, “Mary Sue graduated in 1951 with a degree in English from the College of Liberal Arts. According to the Cactus Yearbook senior pictures section, she participated in the Women’s Inter-Community Association (WICA), Touche (fencing), Tumble (gymnastics – it’s misspelled ‘Tumle’ in the caption), and was part of the Houston Club (presumably because she’s originally from Houston).”

 
MarySueHS

 
Soon after graduation, Mary Sue met L. Ron Hubbard in Wichita, and they were married in 1952. She was his third wife. Mary Sue and Ron had two sons and two daughters — Diana, born 1952, Quentin (1954), Suzette (1955), and Arthur (1958). Quentin committed suicide in 1977. Suzette and Arthur are out of Scientology, and live in the Los Angeles area. Diana is the last member of the family who is still involved in the church. She spends most of her time at Int Base.

 
MarySueHS5

 
MarySueHS3

 
In 1966, Hubbard created the “Guardian’s Office” and named Mary Sue Scientology’s “Guardian.” She, and the woman she eventually turned that title over to, Jane Kember, operated the GO as a ruthless spy operation intended to protect Hubbard from prosecution and litigation. Mary Sue was prosecuted after an FBI raid in 1977 busted up the GO’s “Snow White Program,” which had operatives burglarizing federal agencies for several years. She was sentenced to five years in prison in 1979, but ended up serving only one year, from 1983 to 1984.

 
MarySueHS2

 
After she came out of prison, the church bought her a lovely home in the Los Feliz neighborhood of Los Angeles on Chislehurst Drive, her consolation after Ron let her take the fall for Snow White. He had gone into permanent seclusion in 1980, and she never saw him again. He died in 1986. Removed from her position of power in the church hierarchy, she lived out her days at Chislehurst Drive until she died in 2002 of breast cancer. In her will, however, she directed that her house not be sold as long as her Shih Tzu dog still lived there. It ended up outliving her by 11 years, and only after the dog’s death in 2013 was the house put up for sale.

 
MarySueHS6

 
MarySueHS4

 
We also heard from Phil Jones. You know Phil and his wife Willie for their “Call Me” billboards in Los Angeles and Clearwater. He and Willie are trying to raise awareness about Scientology’s toxic policy of “disconnection” which rips apart families. Phil and Willie are separated from their two grown children, Mike and Emily, who are Sea Org workers and can have no contact with them.

Phil was a longtime Scientologist before he became known for his billboards. And he sent us a snapshot of himself with another Hubbard family member: Ron and Mary Sue’s youngest son, Arthur.

“It was at the Toronto Org circa 1973. I believe he was touring some of the Orgs with Captain Bill. I chatted with Arthur for a bit. He referred to his dad as’The Commodore’,” Phil says.

Back in 2013, we looked into Arthur’s odd work today as an artist, using his own blood in portraits of women.

 
PhilandArthur2

 
And we have one more treat for you, sent in by Mimsey Borogrove. We’ll let him set it up:

“Your post about Diana reminded me of this picture I took of Clark Carr back in 1971. I don’t know the girl on the extreme left’s name, but next to her is Joanne Devito, Gretchen Swartz, Libby (I think) and Clark. You will note Clark was returning to LAX from somewhere, and has a British Mark V E-meter case swinging from his shoulder. He did a comedy routine, and hammed it up for the photographer a bit. Gretchen is (or was) my buddy. At the time we were staying at the Hoover House near ASHO when it was on Temple. She ended up being the chief reg at FSC Office in FOLO WUS next to AOLA on L. Ron Hubbard Way, and I gave her lord knows how much money for services at Flag – where I eventually got on OT 7 till I was declared. She had a stroke and died at her desk, and as far as I know got bupkis as a memorial service (she did get a service at CC). Her husband Fred moved up lines years before she passed. Her son nephew is Julian, of whom many have met as the MAA at AOLA. She, by the way, has a cello, as he was given a musical tribute as he deplaned. This is the only picture of Clark that I have.”

 
Clark_Carr

 
Clark is someone we’ve kept an eye on here at the Bunker. He became the president of Narconon International, but then as Narconon became a magnet for lawsuits, Clark’s office in Hollywood was suddenly abandoned and Clark went to Tijuana. We’d still like to know what he’s up to, if any of our tipsters happen to catch a glimpse of him.

 
——————–

Chris Shelton diagnoses L. Ron Hubbard

Chris has a special treat for us today. He interviewed academic researcher Yuval Laor, who has an interesting theory that L. Ron Hubbard was suffering from something called temporal lobe epilepsy, which helps explain his logorrhea and many of his odd behaviors.

It’s always risky to diagnose someone who’s long dead, but we think Chris and Yuval have put together an interesting discussion.

 

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on August 13, 2016 at 07:00

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback and Kindle editions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Robert Hanna Moore

    WICA?

    • Graham

      Women’s Inter-Community Association according to Tony’s text.

      • jazzlover

        Add another word starting with “C”, and I think we’d have what Mr. Moore seems to be referring to. Might’ve been comically appropriate too.

  • Graham

    Not sure what it says about me, that I was able to pick out Mary Sue in both those pics. Have I been spending too much time in the Bunker?

    • MarcabExpat

      Me too. Unnerving.

    • chukicita

      I thought that was Michael Phelps in the photo above Mary Sue’s. Have I been spending too much time watching the Olympics?

    • Susan black

      I’m still processing the foreheads of the men in that pic.

      • Scott H

        Susan those aren’t foreheads, more like gently sloping beaches leading to the children’s wading pool.

        • Kim O’Brien

          my gramma calls them ” five heads “

      • pollywog

        Forehead Tech…

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Could you have a secret thing for Mary Sue locked away in your reactive mind?

      • Graham

        I’m a-freud you could be right 😉

  • EnthralledObserver

    Mental illness and brain injuries seemed to be blamed for all manner of cult misbehaviour these days… from L Ron Hubbard, Mary Baker Eddy, Muhammad, recent Islamic terrorists (although the main-stream media will be trying to cover up their connection to Islam)…
    Curious, no?

    • EnthralledObserver

      Ooohh… I forgot Hillary Clinton… there’s that one too.

      • Roger Larsson

        Donald Duck exist. When Donald Trump has made it the ducks has made it.

        • EnthralledObserver

          Please explain. :/

    • 0tessa

      I’m more inclined to stress the political component in relation to cult behaviour. History shows that religion has always been closely connected to politics: popes, prophets, and also Hubbard’s Scientology (though it is not a religion). Hubbard wanted scientologists to infiltrate in businesses, governments etc. to influence the important people. Constantine adopted the christian god, because he supposedly helped him to win the war.
      It is not well known, but surely amongst experts, that the Coran is especially political. Its goal is purely and simply to establish Islamic law (the sharia) everywhere. Not by means of conversion, but through infiltration, by establishing the right juridical conditions so that conversion will follow spontaneously. Violence is permitted, but only as useful, but it is not necessary and not preferable. The moderate muslims have the same goal as the islamists, but they prefer to use the more silent strategies, that are also a lot cheaper. Now this process is actually happening in Turkey, where Erdogan is shaping government and institutions towards an Islamic state.
      This is of course a very inconvenient truth for many people.
      (Islamologie et monde islamique, Marie-Therese Urvoy, 2016.)

      • EnthralledObserver

        True… I have said before that Islamic terrorists are just perhaps the impatient ones, using violence to achieve world wide dominance by Islam through fear… but it is a folly, because then we see it coming. No, the real danger comes from the moderates, who have the same goal of world wide dominance, but through peaceful measures, such as out-breeding and government infiltration and subversion of western laws… these we don’t see coming until their numbers are so high it makes fighting them much harder, and nearly impossible… and only if the human rights sycophants step aside long enough to let the majority see the truth.

  • It’s always risky to diagnose someone who’s long dead

    Diagnosing them as dead is usually safe. 😛

    • beauty for ashes

      it may be extremely dangerous to NOT diagnose them as long dead.

      • What we’ve learned from zombie shows: Never lean directly over the obvious corpse. Give them a double-tap first, to be sure.

  • MarcabExpat

    *snort* excellent title, Tony :-))))

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Who could have imagined a degree in English from the College of Liberal Arts would prepare Mary Sue to be head of the private guerrilla spy wing of [one of] the world’s wealthiest cults?

    • Graham

      She used to be Snow White, but she drifted 🙂

      • If you wake up feeling happy, sleepy and dopey, you’re probably Snow White.

    • chukicita

      It was the fencing club.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Yes, I do believe you are right!

    • Panopea Abrupta

      “World’s wealthiest cult” – that might be Soka Gakkai, Andrea.
      Net worth in excess of 100 billion 10 years ago, plus an actual 12 million followers.
      DM can only dream of the level of power and political leverage they have.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Crikey O’Reilly, PanA! I’m not very “up” on my cults. Suddenly I feel terribly let down by Miscavige et al.

        • Tracy Schmitz

          you feel let down? OBVIOUSLY you brought it upon yourself! (sarcasm!)… you know never mind those lies and untruths that would be THEE cause for the poor scientologist to feel “let down”… crazy isn’t it andrea! p.s. i always enjoy your postings.

    • What’sup

      And who could of imagined Arthur Hubbard would become Ed Sheeran?

      • Frodis73

        Nailed it! I was trying to figure out who he reminded me of…wow, he really is his twin.

      • JaxNGold

        That’s hilarious! I totally thought the same thing when I saw his pic. A goofy, less attractive version of Ed Sheeran! I love most of Sheeran’s music. He’s an incredible singer/songwriter. He certainly stands out among the rest — considering the drivel put out by most other “artists” his age.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      No kidding, and saints be praised that the internet age didn’t arrive earlier or Operation Snow White would have been carried out by Elron and Mary Sue’s own private Dark Army of criminal hackers!

      I’m sure the depth, scope and duration of $cn’s covert spying operations were a very rude awakening for the FBI and other national intelligence organizations. By many accounts, $cn was able to pull off exactly the kind of coordinated, widespread, large scale, covert infiltration of many different government agencies and private companies that our government and the entire country had been so concerned about in the McCarthy era, when the fear and paranoia of communist spying and conspiracy was at its Cold War peak.

      After having bravely fallen on her sword to protect her husband from exposure and prosecution, one would think that she would have earned the undying gratitude and trust of Elron and the entire organization, but no, the exact opposite came to pass. Elron cut himself off from her from that point on in an attempt to save his own disloyal and cowardly ass and did so, seemingly, without much regret or compassion.

      If one wished to trace the genesis of disconnection as one of the most effective tools of enslavement currently used by Miscavige and his evil minions, then Elron’s abandonment of his loyal and faithful wife for, in essence, being wildly successful in carrying out his own crazy domestic espionage plan is a great place to start. Regardless of how one views the tech, Elron’s very consistent, lifelong pattern of abandoning friends, family and associates whenever they became a liability to him or were no longer useful or amusing is evident at every turn. It’s impossible to imagine someone having a sincere desire and dedication to saving all of mankind if he couldn’t be bothered to save and protect his own closest family members.

      • gtsix

        Mary Sue failed. She was supposed to protect him from prosecution, not bring about the biggest prosecution of all time! And LRH dI’d not tolerate failure, he banished it far from him.

        He really was an asshole.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          Yea, being the narcissist douche weasel that he was, I’m sure he saw the operation’s collapse and the ensuing FBI raids as all her fault. In reality, anyone with a lick of sense could see that a covert operation that large, using that many people, would be discovered at some point in time, then followed up the food chain to the top (almost).

          He used her as a cut out to save his own scheming, disreputable ass and, apparently, never looked back.

    • Sid (Phil Jones)

      That degree might have come in handy. Plenty of telexes were flying then.

      Guardians Office Telex Memo

      GO Washington DC <—–
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      GO Queen Mary Sue H.

      WOULDS'T THOU ENTER A LOCKED DOOR? PERHAPS A LOCK PICKED?

      PAPERS, FILES, ALL FOR TAKING. COPY HENCE AS DOTH A HANDLER WAITS.

      PASS ON GATHERED SCRIPTS. ALAS, YOU MUST RETURN. INFILTRATE ONCE MORE

      THE EVIL PSYCH DOMAIN. PERCHANCE TO DELVE A WHILE LONGER.

      LOWER CONDITIONS AWAIT A FAULTY SCENE.

      PRISON, YES, PERHAPS I'LL JOIN YOU FOR A SPELL.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Hahaha!

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      You should see how far the drop-outs went.

  • Wog

    The President of Narconon, Mr. Clark Carr, is sending out e-mails to everyone that worked for Narconon or went to Narconon – asking them to post waxing reviews about Narconon in an effort to hide the entheta (truth) about Scientology.

    I don’t think he is joking now.

    Seems like he has achieved the EEE PEE of Scientology – and is now an “alleged” criminal con man just like LRH and his leader, David Miscavige.

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    I don’t know how you feel today about Gretchen Schwartz, Mimsey, but she was your friend once so I’m sorry to hear she died in such an undignified way – although perhaps still doing what she loved? And thank you for the amazing photo! It was taken a year after I was born; I have a photo of dad holding me on a Cypriot beach and he has the very same hairstyle as Clark Carr, and you can just tell he knows he is smooooth.

  • Jon S

    Narconon’s Clark Carr and an E-Meter from the Scientology magazine “Impact”, Vol 10, 1987. If he’s so into drug treatment, why is there a BONG on the office table?

    • Susan black

      Research!

    • Reach and Withdraw.

      (Sometimes Reach, Inhale, Withdrawl.)

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Look at our Phil, the handsome devil. Hubbard’s genes really were very orange, weren’t they. We have a cereal in the UK called Ready Brek and their adverts had a recurring theme throughout the 80s and 90s: the Ready Brek Kid. After eating his bowl of RB in the mornings he would spend the remainder of his day surrounded by a warm, self-satisfied orange glow, as per the picture below (F5). It is how I imagine Hubbard looked nude.

    • Gerard Plourde

      The warm, orange glow eliminating the need for a brolly and Wellies, I see.

    • 9001

      The Ready Brek kid has oatie powers! Hubbs had no OT powers.

    • Newiga

      Hubbard and nude in the same sentence is too much… I don’t know whether I should laugh hysterically or vomit at the though of LRH in his birthday suit..

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        C’mere, shelter under my coat. I will keep you safe from the horrible images 😀 You have email, by the way.

      • chukicita

        Either one of those is appropriate. Great apricot hellbeast.

  • Scott H

    Is temporal lobe epilepsy the polite way of saying bat-shit crazy with a heaping side dish of megalomania and seasoned with a dash of narcissism?

    • I understand it’s a kind of electrical storm in the brain, that can bring about experiences of the numinous, among other symptoms. It’s an explanation sometimes offered for the ecstatic religious experiences of mystics.

      I haven’t heard the video, but there is a neurologist who appears to be able to induce a kind of ‘religious ecstasy’ using a skullcap filled with powerful magnets, suggesting that the potential for this kind of experience is built into us all, and has a physical basis.

      If you live in a society which accepts supernatural explanations the ability to deliver ‘revelations’ from worlds beyond can give you great power – for example Joan of Arc. Today, I think her mental processes might attract the attention of more psychiatrists than followers, and so it should have been with Hubbard.

      On the face of it, I think Hubbard was driven by his greed for money and power, and enabled by his narcissistic disregard for others. If he had experiences of the numinous, they certainly didn’t make him a better person. However, when I have a computer with sound, I will be sure to listen to Chris.

      • Scott H

        After everything I’ve read over the past 5 years or so I’m inclined to agree: an overwhelming lust for power and money coupled with an insatiable need for public adulation. I’ve often wondered if, in the end, Hubbard actually believed his own tripe or did he go to his grave secure in the knowledge he had conned tens of thousands of people.

        Huge fan of Chris Shelton and his wry sense of humor, the gentle rebukes and his common sense deconstruction of Hubbard’s “tech”.

        • MaxSpaceman

          Chuck Beatty has related “Sarge”‘s recounting of Hubbard’s last months, a couple a few times, since the Bunker stopped Runnin’ Scared and went Underground.

          Apparently, “Source” hisself, was a bat-sh1t believer in those dang’d body thetans, messing with him, throughout his time at the Creston Ranch, in his RV, where he eventually died.

        • Tracy Schmitz

          is it ANY wonder the 3 biggest beings (hubbard, miscavige and cruise) have what you posted in your first sentence in common?! not to mention selective amnesia, anger issues, wife issues, and uneducated…

        • It’s my view that, near the end, he was socially isolated in the extreme and both physically and mentally ill.

          Good conmen have a natural ability for what George Orwell called ‘doublethink’ – the ability to believe whatever they are trying to present while they are presenting it., despite the fact that they know it is nonsense.

          I think that, at the end of his life, Hubbard was sick and completely lost contact with reality. The material that he had spent so much time constructing for the purpose of manipulating others became the subject matter of serious delusions.

          We will never know just how serious, but the presence of the injection sites on his body noted in his autopsy and the amount of Vistaril (a very powerful tranquilliser) in it, suggest that he could have been violently deranged at the end.

          I think that, when he went into hiding, he put himself into solitary confinement. That, in combinations with all his other medical issues led to psychosis. I suspect that looking for subtle explanations is over-thinking the matter. He was seriously mentally ill.

          Even when I disagree with Chris, he makes me think about why and justify it, which is what critical is al about. Long may he continue to post!

          • Scott H

            As you said, we will never definitively know his mental state at the end. Vistaril is not nearly as powerful as people think. Hydroxyzine [Vistaril] is a first-gen antihistamine and is not a narcotic. We prescribe it often as hydroxzine is effective, non-scheduled, has low abuse potential and is inexpensive. I’m a social worker, not a MD but we rarely prescribe it to elderly patients as long-term use can lead to rather nasty side effects.

            • I concede to your greater pharmaceutical knowledge.

              However, Hubbard was not being cared for by licensed professionals. He was under the control of a few well-meaning long-term Scientologists and the ruthless man who was going to replace him in power. It’s quite possible that this drug was used inappropriately with the intention of keeping a sad, mad old man under control.

              Of course, this was the time that Hubbard was supposed to be obsessively writing the end of “Mission Earth”, so he couldn’t have that bad.. could he?

              I recently published an article from an issue of an English science fiction magazine from 1990 https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2016/08/03/a-literate-science-fiction-magazine-considers-l-ron-hubbards-fiction-writing/

              In the process of assessing Hubbard’s fiction, the author notes that last few volumes “Mission Earth” were devoted to tidying up the loose ends left dangling by the previous ones, as if it were being completed for publication by another hand.

              Had Hubbard actually finished it before his Thetan packed its bags? Certainly the 2 1/2 volumes ascribed to the character are largely dedicated to knitting up the tangle of loose ends which are thrown off at every twist of the repetitive plot, and to bringing the whole thing to a thoroughly unsatisfactory conclusion.

              Little is known of Hubbard’s final days in seclusion, and I’m beginning to think he was in far worse a state than is generally thought, and did not receive the care he should have done because this would have looked bad for Scientology (and losting control of him might have thwarted Miscavige’s plans for power).

            • Scott H

              And I concede to your far greater knowledge of Hubbard. : )

              About the Hub’s last days, I’m torn. Torn because part of me feels empathy for – if the few accounts are true – an obviously sick old man in need of real medical treatment and the vindictive side of me that says “let the old man suffer and rot in Hell”. Not terribly charitable of me I admit.

            • As I was writing about that theory, I was thinking that Hubbard may have suffered in much the same way that Lisa McPherson did – locked up and ignored while in need of psychiatric treatment – and strictly in accordance with his own directions about how to deal with the ‘psychotic’, too.

              It’s hard not to think, “serves him right – that’s poetic justice.” However, as me Gran used to say, reprovingly, “two wrongs don’t make a right”.

              By hating Hubbard, we make ourselves a little more like the hateful man he was. It strikes me that’s best avoided.

            • Scott H

              Beautifully said. Thanks for the reminder that hate breeds hate.

  • Wog

    To diagnose L Ron Hubbard is like diagnosing Charlie Manson.

    The difference – Charlie was overt. L Ron was covert.

    L Ron Hubbard was a nasty, evil man.

    He murdered and maimed a lot of people – only he did it very covertly.

  • Davka

    What I love about these pictures is that it reminds me there are real people behind these cult caricatures – that once there was a well meaning person sucked in to horrible. Always good to remember. And that hair – the 70’s were so fab, huh?

  • Newiga

    I’m pretty sure Most Likely to Be a Cult Leader’s Wife is not a title they give out to class mates in Year Books. Funny (No, scary actually) how life/some people turn out.. Pretty sure (at least I’m hoping) being a Guardian is not the career Mary Sue had in mind when she started her studies.

    • Graham

      Newi, I believe Andrea is frantically trying to e-mail you?

      • jazzlover

        Has e-mail become an exercise in “frantic”?

      • Newiga

        I’ll catch up with my emails asap. Been out of town for a few days.

      • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

        Thanks, G 🙂

    • jazzlover

      I would guess that L Ron being L Ron, he knew how to pick ’em.

    • It is frightening how many people take to power without responsibility – including many whom you would never have suspected had that potential https://scicrit.wordpress.com/2014/05/05/understanding-the-scientology-mindset-part-4-power-corrupts-the-stanford-prison-experiment/

      When it was offered, she embraced it enthusiastically – until it all came unstuck and she went to jail. I don’t doubt that she felt justified in what she did for the remainder of her life.

      Even atheists like me look upon situations like that and ask, “lead me not into temptation”.

    • chukicita

      Most Likely To End Up In Jail for Spying on US Government Offices.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Like Bonnie if she hadn’t met Clyde, one can only wonder what alternate path Mary Sue would have found herself traveling if she hadn’t met Elron and become the queen of that space opera pirate fleet 😉

  • Good morning Bunkerites. You know, as I think I mentioned in my book, one of the questions I’m asked the most is what were L. Ron Hubbard’s intentions, was he just a con man or did he really believe his own bullshit? I answered that to the best of my ability by saying he was complicated, because when you take a good, hard look at his life you find plenty of evidence that he believed what he said but you also find plenty of evidence that he knew he was pulling something over on people and that he was a knowing pathological liar. It’s difficult to just slap a label on him and be done with it and think you’ve pegged him. Sure, you can say “charlatan” or “scum bag” or “Asshole of the Twentieth Century” or “megalomaniac” or a host of other things – all of them certainly true – but none of them answering the question that you really want answered: Why? Why would someone spend 36 years writing tens of thousands of pages, giving over 5000 lectures and briefings, create an entire little navy and come up with one of the most intricate and detailed conspiratorial mythologies ever developed if he was just in it for the money? Yet at the same time, how could that same person bilk millions upon millions of dollars from innocent people, lie about nearly every aspect of his life and wreak holy terror upon those who loved and adored him the most? It’s crazy and you can certainly chalk it all up to a kind of psychosis and be done with it. For me that answer never fully satisfied.

    When Yuval approached me with this theory, I was certainly skeptical and it took hours to convince me there might be something to it. I believe he is on to something with this theory of TLE but to be crystal clear (and as I stress in the podcast) this condition is not something that gives Hubbard a pass for anything he did. It is merely an effort to understand why he did it and I think it’s a good effort. There is some good science and medicine backing this up, which is what we spend the bulk of the podcast discussing. Not because I want Hubbard to be pitied or justified or to make less of anything he did, but just to help me put him behind me. TLE is not the only thing wrong with L. Ron Hubbard but for me it finally provides a very good answer to a great many of the questions I’ve been asked about him. For that reason alone, I put this podcast together to share the theory with everyone else. I hope you all take the time to watch it and it will hopefully put one more piece of the puzzle of L. Ron Hubbard into place.

    Edit: By the way, this theory is not an effort to say that Hubbard was NOT a malignant scumbag megalomaniacal narcissist who could not control his lying tendences, womanizing ways or gratutious self-serving evil tendences when it came to ruining people. He was all of those things and more. People who have TLE do not all become destructive cult leaders and are not all awful human beings. Just want to be clear on this point, because TLE is not the only thing Hubbard had going on.

    • jazzlover

      I’m 30 or so minutes in. There are certainly some interesting theories put forth here, Chris. Thanks for putting this together.

    • PickAnotherID

      With Hubbard, I’m more inclined to believe the narcissistic misogynist, with a touch of megalomania, and too much of a fondness for “pinks and greys” with his booze. But that’s just me.

      • Todd Tomorrow

        You nailed it.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      “logorrhea” would explain many great authors. William S. Burroughs, R.D. Lang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._D._Laing, to name a couple. I loved how you almost had to start speaking their own language to just understand them. Hubbard’s work just seems like garbage:;

      • jazzlover

        I always thought that logorrhea was the uncontrolled spewing of logarithms by mathematicians.

        • I thought it was about Milton Glaser.

          • jazzlover

            LOL. The I Heart NY guy! Aren’t all NYers overly loquacious? 😉

            • And overly redundant. Too.

            • jazzlover

              Hey now 🙂

      • As a creative he was merely prolific, but as a fabulist he was obsessive. As someone who was in theater from the age of 6 to 21, I engaged in, and watched, a lot of improv. You can tell when someone is good at it, when it looks seamless. I would posit that all children go through an improv phase as they pass through early to mid-childhood, where they spin amazing tales to see how gullible their parents might be. Some just never grow out of it. Hubbard, especially in his congresses, was like watching a six year-old explain how the lamp got broken (it was the Fifth Invader Force I tell you). You can hear the cogs turning in his head as he tries to see how far he can go for a reaction.

    • DoveAlexa

      I had to go on a mad hunting trip through past articles, but I found this: http://tonyortega.org/2016/01/08/jon-atack-the-best-thing-ever-written-about-the-language-traps-in-scientologys-bible-dianetics/
      It’s what helped me clear up the contradiction between the charlatan and true believer sides of Lron, at least a fair chunk.
      It’s an article written by Samuel Ichiye “S.I.” Hayakawa, about how because Lron was kind of incompetent in general, the snare he had made for others also ensnared himself. It’s been a while since I read it but it’s super nifty.
      I’ll have to wait to watch the podcast though, (I’m sick) but I will!

    • Bob

      Chris, for those of us who have been around for a long time, Hubbards condition did seem complicated and unbelievable. I stayed in for so long because he seemed so dedicated and prolific and convincing. This new theory makes sense. Hubbard ranks as THE truly insane psychopath writer and lecturer of all time. In some way he believed what he said. Yet he was evil to the core in how he exploited us.
      Thanks for your continuing search to resolve the Hubbard conundrum. It’s worth the effort.

      • This is really great to search for the medical explanations for Hubbard’s condition. What I missed though is talk of Geschwind syndrome. I recall this was brought up in Jon Beverly’s getting clear conference, but I never heard anything more about it. It seems correlated more with Hubbard, yet he could have had just plain old anhedonia/depression as Barbara Klowden explained.

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Chris, as I grow older and wiser, and at this point in my life, I just don’t really care about Hubboard or the whys and what’s. That’s just me, sorry. Keep up the good work you do and thank you.

      • jazzlover

        This is important, Dee. You could help tons of ex’s out there with these wise words. To me, a never-in, it always comes down to this: “L Ron Hubbard: A Cavalcade of Aphasia, or Just a Demented Leader of Another Cavalcade”.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          “Janitor of lunacy”

          • jazzlover

            LOL. At some point, it’s all the same difference. Some arrive at that conclusion sooner than others. I understand it’s a necessary process, though.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Oh, I will continue to tweet and promote of course. Comments that would be helpful to an ex or never-in, I will continue. Thanks sweetie! Personally, just can’t listen to much and wanted him to know. Why bother I don’t know. Hey, just to hear from you was worth it!

          • jazzlover

            Well said, and thanks for the high compliment 🙂

      • The Older and Wiser thing is hard for people in their 30s and 40s to understand. Everything Is So Damn Important Syndrome fades dramatically as the cosmic joke comes more clearly into focus. You just can’t see it when you’re young and immortal. That said, our civilization is driven by the different obsessions of the various age groups that comprise our species. I’m just starting to get glimpses of the joke at 57 and I’m not so sure that it’s funny.

        • DoveAlexa

          Careful, you nearly made my eyes roll right out of my skull…

          • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

            “Candide” by Voltaire

            That to me is wisdom that captures swaths of Hubbard’s influence on so many young people.

            But this interview by Chris of Yuval Laor makes 10-20 points which I hope Laor gets more coverage of his points.

            I’d like to see Laor get interviewed by one of the Bloggingheads.tv category people.

          • Your disapproval has crushed me. I shall retreat and consider the errors of my ways.

            • beauty for ashes

              Artoo get out of the pantry closet and stop eating Nutella with a spoon! ;p

        • beauty for ashes

          Not for me anyway, but since I became chronically ill I think my viewpoint has changed. It’s a strange blessing, but you do feel enlightened.

        • Wog

          well put Artoo45

          If people have been out for a LONG time – they may not need the information – but the newly out and young ones need to de program and information/ Truth is key.

        • Lady Squash

          I am in my 70s and I can relate to what you are saying. I look back at my life and just shake my head at the various phases of my life and how important certain things were wa back when.

          Was that really me who obsessed about how I looked, what people thought about me, and what set of dishes I had? And of course as a Scientologist I wonder about my obsession to “go spiritually free”.

          Since leaving Scientology, I’ve learned that spiritual freedom comes from letting go of ego (Scientology is one big ego trip) and in believing in a higher power.

          It is such rich irony.

          • Lighthouse

            “Scientology is one big ego trip” – I’ve not thought of it like that before but you are so right. I’ve said it other ways but it’s this in a nutshell!

            • Lady Squash

              Hubbard’s son, Nibbs, described Scientology this way: “Scientology is a power-and-money-and-intelligence-gathering game.” That quote comes from an interview Nibbs did for Penthouse Magazine in 1983. It’s a great interview.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Thanks, I’m sure it’s hard and since the older folks were there have that to remember. Priorities change with age but important things like educating about the cult while helping the changes with our nation, keeps one busy. Quality of life is important. When you get to a point you can see the end and then plan for it, unless you leave it to others, changes need to occur.

          I got good glimpses of it when I lost my hubby and best friend.
          Now I have some new good friends from the Bunker and it keeps me going.

      • madame duran

        I hear ya. Even whales which spend their entire lives submerged in ocean depths must come up to the surface for air.
        Studying the labyrinth of rabbit holes that is Hubbard/Scientology can be quite exhausting. If someone has the energy and time to explore, great for them (and if they discover anything interesting along the way, share it with us). However, I’d caution anyone against spending too much time in darkness (darkness in every sense of the word). People who dwell in it for too long start to turn funny in the head. There needs to be a healthy balance. Unlike scientific or creative discoveries which tend to be progressively illuminating as one digs deeper, I find that each new step into Scientology gets more and more depressing, abhorrent, and depraved. The phrase “Scientology: it’s always worse than you think!” is very apt in describing how unfathomably vile it is.
        Getting into Scientology is a gradual process very much like compulsive digging. Inititally, you have vigor and purpose. You’re going to dig a hole in the ground because ________ [fill in the blank with your specific reason. Looking for hidden treasure? Establishing a building’s foundation? Carving out a grave plot?]. Digging is hard, manual labour. The repetitive motions become monotonous after a while…even hypnotic. But because you’re physically strong and so determined, you keep at it. Time elapses and you begin to lose sight of the original goal that got you started in the first place. You become consumed with the task itself. Years pass before you pause to realize that you just dug a giant crater stretching 10 miles either way and 12 feet deep. You’ve since become older, weaker, and more tired but what do you have to show for all your work? All you’ve been doing is digging but haven’t achieved anything beyond that. Meanwhile, your life has gone by and near its end, you have nothing to fill in or extract from that gigantic hole. No treasure chest, no building, no casket…NOTHING. Wait…let me correct myself. There is ONE thing achieved. You helped to devastate the landscape. Ummm…bravo?
        It’s a personal choice to decide how far one will go into inquiring about Scientology. I can appreciate the reasoning for going either way (engage or stop altogether) Whatever you decide, just remember to take some breaks, enjoy life and partake in other interests. We’d all be healthier for it.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Thank you madame, nice! Must pay some attention to my bucket list before I’m through here. When you reach an age (just turned 80), like you know, it’s the beginning of the end, it does make a difference in interests and necessary activities. Will always check on the Bunker however and keep up best I can.

        • Lady Squash

          I love the phrase you use to describe Scientology: “unfathomably vile”. And I love your analogy about digging the hole. It becomes an obsession and in the end all you have is the hole. I can relate to that. Thirty years later and a half a million down the drain and what did i have: a big useless hole. In fact, it feels like a hole in my life.

          That said, I remain grateful for a few things I learned. One is that I managed to figure out how to apply the Ethics Gradients, particularly how to comment gently to someone about something unacceptable they are doing–that’s gradient two. (The “gently” is my addition.) Also learning the TRs was useful. I am now successfully leading a writing, I believe in part because of those skills I learned.

          Still I’m pissed off about it. Hubbard published the Ethics Gradients and then never explained how one would accomplish step two. I figured it out after leaving and from reading psychology books. That’s a rich irony, if you know what I mean. And I resent that those life lessons cost me half a million dollars and took thirty years. To me that is “unfathomably vile”.

          Scientology is “useful knowledge” wrapped up in a suppressive system. The suppressive aspect of Scientology is the deceit that Hubbard’s “useful knowledge” is all there is to know about it, which it isn’t. This wouldn’t be quite so vile if Hubbard didn’t then make looking elsewhere a f***ing crime. His system essentially makes curiosity a crime and Truth a joke. It is a cruel irony.

          • BronxLaurie10

            “His system essentially makes curiosity a crime”

            Exactly!

            That would make a great sign when I get around to protesting – “Curiosity is NOT a crime!”
            (I feel guilty that I haven’t protested yet but my own life problems have to be dealt with first. But I definitely will.)

    • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

      This is all appreciated, your time and brain cells you are devoting to all these details.

      And to everyone else trying to size up Hubbard and Scientology.

      I enjoy all of your videos.

      I wonder if there is some simple way to “get the word” and get the right words, spoken or written, to the members of Scientology, in a way that helps them see the folly of their following Hubbard’s Bridge to Total Freedom.

      Whatever Hubbard was, he did paste into history his “Bridge to Total Freedom” chart with all the attendant “levels” and crank pseudo-therapy and “body thetan” exorcism “levels” ( OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, a whole lot of exorcism activity that they have on their “Bridge” chart to complete in order to become more “Operating Thetan” than they are, supposedly).

      It’s an orderly activity, Hubbard’s left them, with intense rules and policies keeping them on auto-pilot, if they follow his rules, which they gladly seem to do.

      Hubbard’s Scientology corpus of rules and practice details and exact step by step ad nausea stages of the “Bridge to Total Freedom” is a big cowpie to me today.

      How to cross the communication divide to them? Always relevant. Without scaring them into their voluntary little prison gulag system of belief.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      It’s a very interesting hypothesis indeed! Thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort to bring it to our attention.

      I have an academic and clinical background in neuroscience and psychopathology and have been wrestling with some of the very same questions about the origins and causal bases of Elron’s thoroughly whacky, but intricately complex and voluminously elaborated cosmology. Like you, I’ve been left unsatisfied with many of the over-general and preemptively dismissive theories of the origins of his madness/genius.

      The symptom cluster profile that’s been reported in the literature on TLE, with simple partial seizures, is consistent with many aspects of Elron’s personality and behavior ( see here for a brief overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy ). But, as the literary master of clinical psychopathology tale-telling, Oliver Sacks, often noted, every patient, no matter how disordered or brain damaged, is unique and so much more than the totality of their symptomology. On that view, Elron may very well have had some organic brain damage/dysfunction like TLE which may provide some fundamental insights into what drove him, but there’s just so much more to what went into making him who he was than just that, or any other simple diagnosis, such as manic depressive with psychotic features or narcissistic personality disorder.

      If one can step back far enough to look upon him with compassion – despite all the huge evil and wrong that’s been done in the furtherance of the $cn religion – his dedicated and enduring focus on the development of auditing techniques to resolve spiritual impediments and regain native state abilities that he perceived to be afflicting all of mankind, can be understood more simply as just his own, ultimately futile, efforts to heal himself. And if the causal bases of his psychological distress was indeed organic, then, just like all of the OT $cientologists with cancer who have died believing that only the Tech could cure them, he too was doomed to failure from the start.

      • Lady Squash

        The irony of Scientology is that Hubbard, who did discover some “useful knowledge” and did spend his life trying to refine that knowledge, was himself evil. By “evil” I mean dishonest, manipulative, controlling, cruel, and power hungry. Most likely mentally ill and physically ill himself.

        His evil behavior includes: lying about who he was; his pretense that he had obtained spiritual freedom when he hadn’t; his Ethics Technology which made looking elsewhere for answers a crime, his obsession about destroying the lives of those who dared to criticize his system. And let’s not forget the aggressive sales techniques he taught his staff, which encouraged them to callously financially ruin true believers and Truth seekers.

        It is quite a trick to feel some compassion for Hubbard’s unstable mental state and his compromised physical state, at the same time feel repulsed by his utter lack of decency and the harm his system brings into the lives of many, and also to feel some gratitude for some of the things I learned in Scientology.

        It is quite a trick.

        • Harpoona Frittata

          It is indeed! The way that I manage to acknowledge what worked for me in $cn with an awareness of how much evil he and his successor have wrought upon the world is to understand that many of the techniques and procedures in auditing and training that comprise the early bridge were misappropriated by Elron and repackaged in new language as his own invention.

          For example, Rogerian counseling techniques and principles were directly lifted and its creator never cited or given credit for his work. Similarly, the RC church’s confessional procedure, with its principle of confidentiality and promise of forgiveness, became incorporated into $cn as overt and withold processing.

          I’m almost positive that had I been made aware of the cherch’s most central beliefs regarding the space opera antics of evil galactic overlord Xenu and all those nasty velcro body thetans that were going to need extensive exorcism, I would have run for it early on, thinking to myself, “These are some seriously crazy mofos!”

    • Techie

      Hi Chris, good podcast. One techie note, when you use two microphones always mix them together to make a mono final track. On headphones having one voice in each ear is kind of like the 60s “ping-pong stereo” style. If you want to get fancy you can pan one a bit right and the other a bit left but don’t leave it hard stereo like an old Beatles recording that some idiot remastered with John in one ear and Paul in the other. Or the music in one ear and vocals in the other. In most video editing software there is a setting to assign the tracks to the final stereo output channels. You just assign both tracks to both outputs. Fun factoid for those who were condemned to listen to hundreds of hours of Hubbard droning in their ears: he was recorded strictly and only in mono. One microphone. But when you listen, someone early on in the Gold audio area realized that a straight up mono hard center audio image of Hubbard for hours would put the listener to sleep no matter what he said. So they put the mono sound through various processors that give it a little stereo feel. Spreading out the image. Then the special “Clearsound” headphone amplifiers have some circuitry that spreads it even more. So if you listen on an approved Scientology system to an approved Dave Miscavige blessed CD of the Hubster in all his glory it sounds a bit like it is swimming around in a giant aquarium, not hard laser focused at a point right between the earballs. It still puts you to sleep if you try to make sense of it. But here I am typing on and on about something that could have been said in two lines. Maybe there’s a lesion in my brain! There was that bike accident where I slammed head on into a tree….

      • scottmercer

        Personally, I really LIKE the hard stereo Beatles album mixes with John in one ear and Paul in the other ear. At the time (until the White Album) the mono version was the vastly more popular version and George Martin spent days on the mono mixdown, which was usually attended by the group members, while the stereo mix was an afterthought done by an underpaid assistant and completed in a few hours. Having said that, I like that not because it’s good or subtle, but BECAUSE it’s harsh and brash, and for the novelty aspect of it.

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      Haven’t watched it yet but I will. The adoration was more important to L.Ron than the money. There’s my theory and I hope it wraps up all the loose ends.

    • Asillem4

      Thanks so much for the episode, Chris. I’m heading over to Youtube to watch more videos on this issue.

    • Wog

      This is great work – Chris Shelton. Thank you so much. I can’t get enough of this information. I am so “obessed” with finding out how I got so hornswoggled.

      You do good work and I will be “contributing to the motion” of supporting you this year, for sure! We love Chris Shelton!!

      This is REAL HELP for shattered lives from Scientology!! Not that Tony O and so many others provide real help – they do. I just use Chris’ information to get others OUT and it works!

    • Ella Raitch

      It’s all interesting speculation Chris. The more the general public (‘rubes’) are aware that certain charismatic or mystical behaviours are the result of neurological pathology, the saner and more reasoable the world will be.

    • Mockingbird

      That was a great interview. I feel at some point, if mankind survives our own folly long enough, we will see study of physical structures and studies of thought bolster or refute one another. They will meet and make advances that leave our modern hypotheses far, far behind.

      I find it interesting that you chose to describe Hubbard as a malignant narcissist, since I use the same term myself. I feel assuming Hubbard had to be either a sane conman OR an insane false prophet is incorrect. Only after studying hypnosis and trance logic with ideas hidden from the conscious mind and denial, lying and dissociation did the possibility of double think as the routine psychological state for a cult leader emerge.

      In denial information is hidden from the conscious mind, in dissociation a more severe breaking off occurs in the mind than even denial. Separate compartments can function with contradictory elements of cognition acting that are fundamentally dissonant with one another, to use the language of Leon Festinger.

      Robert Jay Lifton described it quite well as the ability to tell a lie you know is a lie and act to hide and simultaneously know in another portion of your mind that you are completely honest and truthful.

      You can have the fractured mind of the guru Lifton described. It’s described in hypotheses on narcissism, particularly the vulnerable narcissist who has the split mind and an inner identity that knows the narcissist is a liar, weak, incompetent, worthless, ashamed, dishonest, without honor or basic human decency and the outer facade identity of godlike perfection, infallible authority and unquestionable superiority with effortless competence that can magically make anything go right.

      Hubbard used the outer identity to try to deny the inner one, to project his negative qualities onto others and reverse the truth a hundred and eighty degrees.

      He tried to will his desires into existence with the tricks he learned in hypnosis and rhetoric. He wanted to use others that he deluded. He wanted to plant in their minds the image of the outer facade and then have those victims act as mirrors to reflect back the beautiful lie he created to function as his narcissistic supply.

      Narcissists aren’t fulfilled by normal means and need attention from others to substitute the inner self that is atrophied and immature. Hubbard’s inner self was petulant and belligerent. He couldn’t be serene with himself and sought the peace that honest, humble self reflection with compassion could have provided. But he had the double bind of lies associated with trauma and dissociation against counterbalanced lies. Similar to his description of GPMs as things he hid from and buried deep and couldn’t escape.

      He felt a need for acceptance, compassion, love and unconditional honest and safe help but simultaneously felt he was unworthy of those things and suffered due to his own choices, actions, and weak and worthless nature.

      Wanting one triggers the other and he dared not face either.

      In my opinion neither the facade or inner self are true. People aren’t perfect and better than each other and they are not lowly scum deserving no love, no acceptance and no chance to be heard or helped ever.

      Hubbard’s long journey for serenity took him through the contradictory road of covertly enslaving others with lies and pretending it would give him a truth that provided freedom. The cruel methods he plagiarized from hypnosis, rhetoric, psychology, earlier cults and other practices couldn’t ever give him freedom and wisdom by giving others slavery and delusion.

      But he dared not face that harsh reality. The stark truth was he was willing to take the shortcut of stepping on the neck of his fellow man to give himself a little boost in finance or influence.

      All the money and slaves in the world didn’t provide peace of mind or even sanity to Hubbard.

      He suffered and deteriorated over decades of madness.

      His experience perfectly fits the description Doctor Daniel Shaw gives of the cult leader as a traumatic narcissist, a special kind of malignant narcissist that often ends up as an abuser or tyrannical leader.

      I am very curious about your opinion of both Lifton’s fractured mind with Orwellian double think and Shaw’s very detailed description of the traumatic narcissist.

    • Spackle Motion

      LRH made a living selling people a bridge. Of course he knew it was a con.

  • aegerprimo

    I met Arthur Hubbard at a party somewhere in Hollywood back in the mid 1990’s. I got to see some of his art…. women’s portraits drawn with some of his blood… and his work was very remarkable. He told me I looked like a woman Robert Crumb would draw (yes I had a large ass and thick strong legs back then, still do). He was a big fan of Robert Crumb and he asked me if I would pose for him. I said yes, but nothing ever came of it.

    ETA: The pen and ink drawing below (F5 refresh) is by Robert Crumb and the other is by Arthur Hubbard. FYI.
    ………………….

    • Todd Tomorrow

      I’m glad you didn’t pose for him.

      • aegerprimo

        If it happened, it would’ve been voluntary and I would’ve demanded to pose holding two kittens. ☺

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Oh It’s early for me but I get it. One for each breast.

          • aegerprimo

            …♥ ♥…

            • Todd Tomorrow

              It isn’t as easy as people think. I was a life Drawing model for two and a half years in college. Leg and neck cramps, cold class rooms, sadistic art teachers were all in a days work. But you were paid a fortune compared to other college jobs. Some of the artists did incredible jobs and I have them saved in my Mum’s basement. Oh and it was funny to see the freshmen girl’s faces the first time they’d ever really seen a man’s penis. Thank god they never had me hold two kittens.

  • Lou G

    Gretchen and Fred Schwartz are not the parents of Julian. Fred’s brother Louis has that distinction and I am not sure who his mother is. Gretchen did have a big memorial service. There were at least a 100 people in attendance. It was held at CCI in the garden. Fred was there looking befuddled with a handler close by. I was very fond of both Fred and Gretchen.

    Arthur is a remarkable artist. Painting with blood sounds quite sensational but is not some ghoulish practice and has a long history. Google it. His paintings are quite beautiful and he is very accomplished.

    • madge filpot

      Lou, I agree with you about Arthur. I remember, on the ship how he was always sketching.. cartoons mainly. I am very happy to hear he was able to follow his passion for art. I worked a lot with Gretchen and Fred back in the day and was saddened when I heard she had died. What have they got Fred doing? Is he still regging do you know?

      • Lou G

        Fred was taken up to Int to be GIEI (Gross Income Executive International). Gretchen didn’t see much of him during the last few years of her life. You used to see something come out for GIEI and then it stopped, rather like all the communication from Int Execs. I heard he was in the hole but I don’t know for sure. Louis is suffering dementia.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Is it just me or does Mary Sue look years older than her peers? Could it just be too much Dipety doo.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Ha He!

    • jazzlover

      Kids in the high schools photos of years ago always look older to me than those in more recent yearbook photos.

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Must have been all that hard livin’, eh?

        • jazzlover

          Or a product of the times when men were bold and women were bolder 😉

          • Todd Tomorrow

            Nah, moonshine and Pall Malls.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        That’s because many of them actually were older, having delayed their college education to fight the war or serve in some non-military support capacity.

        • jazzlover

          Good point. That could be. I suspect it was also a sign of the times, as in fashions were quite different years ago.

    • aegerprimo

      IMHO all of those peeps in the college yearbook photos look old. They all look like they are in their late thirties/early 40’s. Was it the hair-doos or the B&W photos of back then? IDK.

      • DoveAlexa

        Or how chainsmoking was the norm?

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Yeah, nobody has nicotine stained fingers except heroin addicted rock stars these days.

      • Science Doc

        College graduates in 1951 would have included a significant number of people whose lives had been disrupted by WW2 as well as some who would soon be in Korea. Probably a lot of men in their late 20s and a few women who were young widows or munitions workers six years earlier.

  • Supper Powers

    Crap. I had to turn off Chris’ video. I love him so much, but I cannot listen to people repeatedly being interrupted. It ends up being what I pay attention to and not the topic. Sounds like there was some strong arguments being set up, though.

  • Dave Reams

    Ron was a Whipp pussy

    • jazzlover

      LOL. Now that’s what I call keeping it PG for a mixed audience.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Whipp, “You’ll never live it down”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_QLzthSkfM

    • DoveAlexa

      … Had to be done.

    • Scott H

      oh no….high school memories flying into my skull….naughty bits all twitchy….acne returning….must….listen….to…1D.

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Reminds me when my older brother hooked up our MTV to his huge stereo. It even made the news at my school. It could literally shake the house. And we could get HBO by putting tin foil on the actual cable that came in our house from the cable company. You had to often slide the foil up and down the cable but my mate’s and I would watch R rated movies. If my parent’s only knew..

  • Science Doc

    Back in 98 or 99 I read Rosenbaum’s Explaining Hitler. F5. The book is as much interested in the motivations of theorists as the various hypotheses themselves. In the end no one theory stood out above the others raising, I guess, the possibility that there was no explanation for Hitler, that he was not exceptional, and Hitlers could just arise.

    In the case of Hubbard, I would say that he is adequately explained or even over explained. Hitler had few peers in the magnitude and scope of the evil he accomplished, while Hubbard had many peers in 20 th century America. Even operating out of the paradigm of Judeo-Christian practices, parallels can be found in other New Agey practices and cults. Hubbard had much in common with a horde of Gurus, Televangelists, and other pop cultural tricksters and charlatans, with common elements including standard traits of narcissism and sociopathy. It seems unlikely that some specific gross neuroanatomological feature would account for such people, who manifest more extreme versions of character defects that we all posses to varying degrees.

    To bring this back to Rosenbaum’s book, theories of exceptional defects accounting for Hunbard sometimes seem to reflect the proposers concerns and experiences as much as accounting for Hubbard in some unique and compelling way.

    • jazzlover

      The need to explain everything is one of the banes of our existence.

      • ithilien

        Its the need to UNDERSTAND, not explain. Its learning.

        • jazzlover

          Doesn’t explanation lead to understanding?

          • Some explanations are impossiable to understand and I don’t bother but understanding the trials I’ve been through is important enough to work at. When I agreed with the explanation it goes with my own other understandings. Hey what is all this crap for anyway. So I don’t step in it again?

            • jazzlover

              Of course. And it’s important to come to some sort of resolution in your own mind so that you are free to move on and live in the now. However (and this is more to my point), sometimes “we” have a tendency to beat ourselves to death over past events in our lives. There’s a fine line, and sometimes recognizing that isn’t so easy. Giving yourself a break once in a while is important. Less weight and pressure that way. Trust that eventually the answers will hit you, sometimes when you least expect them to.

            • Yes, good words. I try to keep a balance and am wiling to wait for answers once the question is there. I love how in this day and age the world is pretty much explorable from ones livingroom.

            • jazzlover

              Especially if it’s air-conditioned 😉

      • 3feetback-of-COS

        It also drives us to push back the darkness of ignorance and mysticism!

        • jazzlover

          Yes, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. My point is that that drive often leads people into exercises in futility (ie., running the hamster wheel over and over with little to no resolution). That can be quite damaging.

          • Science Doc

            For example, theories of American Exceptionalism to explain histories of territorial expansion and conflict or to reinterpret founding documents.

            • jazzlover

              Our forefathers were saints, I tell ya 🙂

    • I myseft don’t think I have hubbard adequatly explained. When he is, for me, I will be able to put those years away in the past. Chris has been a big help and the comentors because I don’t read and study much like many of you. So thanks 🙂 and (((Hugs))) from too hot SoCA

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      “…there was no explanation for Hitler, that he was not exceptional, and Hitlers could just arise.”

      A fascinating and frightening hypothesis. I also believe that just as there are no real super-humans there are no real super-villains; there are only humans. We’re amazing and frail just as we are.

      • Although they do seem to arise in certain social situations. In Hitler’s case, this was a humiliated, anti-Semitic, Germany struggling under the weight of excessive reparations imposed after the First World War.

        Too many people wanted an easy explanation for their plight, which let them off the hook, and the promise that they could become ‘great’ again. Hitler provided promises and a scapegoat, and nobody looked too closely.

        Hubbard came to prominence in a society that had just prevailed in the Second World War, partly by using two nuclear weapons in anger. Scientists were seen as miracle workers, who could bring about paradise on Earth – or doom us all. Hubbard exploited this to the max.

        I wonder if there isn’t too much emphasis placed on the psychopathology of the individual, and too little on the social context in which they arose. If Hitler, or Hubbard had been run over by a bus, would someone else have filled the void, in a broadly similar way?

        I incline towards this idea because Hubbard, whatever else he was, was no mastermind.

        • Robert Eckert

          Reminds me of a sci-fi story about the Time Police constantly having to stop naive time travellers from going back to kill Hitler. It turns out that if you do that, in the alternate timeline Germany still falls into insanity and militarization, and starts the Second World War, except with more competent leadership that does more lasting damage.

          • Science Doc

            Multiple alternative histories have Reinhardt Heidrich surviving assassination in 1942 and succeeding or eliminating Himmler and Hitler to lead Nazi Germany into the 1960s.

          • And then there is “The Man in the High Castle” by Philip K Dick, in which the axis powers unaccountably win the war and the protagonist (a Japanese dealer in American folk art) is vouchsafed a truly unsettling vision of evil, when he observes the ‘leaders’ of the Reich.

            Elsewhere, a novelist working in seclusion writes and ‘Alternative History” novel in which the Allies win…

          • stillgrace2

            OMG I read the same story. I remember the plot. Now I gotta go find it … it was included in a sci-fi anthology magazine I once owned and may still have.

        • Science Doc

          There were multiple WW1 veterans loose in Germany in the early 1920s with similar profiles to Hitler. Some lead competing nationalist parties. It is easy to imagine similar outcomes with a somewhat different leader.

  • ithilien

    I was looking thru old posts here. Maybe 2-3 years old, and came upon a poster calling themselves Diana Hubbard. Their posts were bizarre, and despite or because of the name, the other posters gave this person a wide berth. It almost seemed like someone who might have been mentally ill, or someone who was exposed to sci and developed quite unusual modes of thinking and expression. I couldnt find any comments asking any questions of this poster re their identity. Could it have really been she? Anyone remember this poster?

    • EnthralledObserver

      Vaguely, actually… now that you mention her. I do not recall any of his/her posts though.

    • Observer

      It was one of the regulars playing with a sock.

      • What’sup

        When you change your user name back from the sock all your posts revert back to your current user name. So if it was a regular the last post they made must have been as Diana Hubbard. Bit strange.

        • Observer

          She created a separate account for the sock

          Edited for clarity

          • What’sup

            Right you are.

          • Rasha

            wait…. we can do that? ….muahahahahaaaaaa…..

    • Techie

      In the Village Voice days there was a poster with the screen name “The Real Diana Hubbard” and some of their posts did sound oddly reminiscent of what Diana might say. It would definitely be something she might do, she was never afraid to talk to someone just because they hated her father. And I believe she knows how to get around the nanny filter at the Int Base. But other posts were completely not her style, I finally decided it wasn’t her.

  • Todd Tomorrow

    I’m sorry, I love Chris but Hubbard’s sex life id disputed. First of all he chased several woman around the boat. Gillian Jentz, the person who started the first CC in Los Angeles was punished and demoted after trying to beat that dog off her leg. And what’s this about all these little girl’s and boy’s made to run around his messages. This podcast seems to make him see larger than life and somehow important. He was a con man who stole others work’s and sadistically locked a little boy in a chain locker for five days, where he cried and soiled himself. A piece of shit! Was he dropped on his head? I don’t know but his quotes are fare from poignant. I think they call it bullshit.

    • HillieOnTheBeach

      Not contradicting you, though my understanding of Yuval and Chris’s point is that most cult leaders very frequently fully engage in predatory sexual behavior for themselves and their lieutenants as an intrinsic part of the cult’s enabled “doctrine”. ie Koresh, Jones, Rael, Jeffs, etc.

      I think Yuval and Chris’s point is that though certainly not immune from perpetuating abuses of power and protecting abusers, it’s not a defining aspect of scientology on a comparable level as with other destructive cults

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      “This podcast seems to make him see larger than life and somehow important.” I’m only halfway through but I feel that pains have so far been taken not to hang Hubbard’s heinous behaviours on the hook of temporal lobe epilepsy – or anything else.

      I’ll let you know if I change my mind by the end 🙂

      • Todd Tomorrow

        ok.

  • nottrue

    I know I know I’m Beautiful….

    • Scott H

      yes you are

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    This blog is better than a book, or books.

    Just incredible material is put here daily by Tony!

    I subscribe and encourage others to please subscribe.

  • Bleh! Sometimes when you go down the rabbit hole, you find rabbit turds!

    I was filling in the blanks for some WISE Hubbard Management companies.

    Category:Uptrends, or Uptrends Management Software, defunct company. One of of the related companies was Micro Business Software:

    Patrick “Pat” Lusey, who seems to be gone from the scene.

    David Gale, father of Philip Gale, who jumped out of an MIT window after leaving Scientology.

    The Unspiked Files: Death Of A Nethead October 9, 2008, Mark Ebner, Gawker

    Scott Snow. (Does he know Denise Miscavige Gentile?)

    Is he a slumlord or ethical specialist? May 11, 2006, Shadi Rahimi, St. Petersburg Times

    • Sid (Phil Jones)

      I heard that Scott Snow died a few years back. I worked for him in Clearwater at Snow Software in the early ’90s. He ran his company like a Sea Org. If our stats were down then our Thursday night staff meeting would be rice and beans and a healthy dose of guilt.

      • Sounds like he ran his properties like the RPF.

        • Sid (Phil Jones)

          It was a horrible place to work.

      • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

        OMG, So sorry to hear that sort of treatment.

    • Ella Raitch

      Somehow had never read the Ebner piece before…cheers

  • Chocolate Velvet

    Huh, I just looked at Arthur Hubbard’s website — he does nice drawings and prints. As for the blood aspect — I suspect it is more of a gimmick to make his work distinctive. Though the quotes he highlights in his online gallery are somewhat in a spiritual vein — so maybe there is some ritual aspect to it. Who knows? People do lots of weird shit that doesn’t make sense, and artists even more so.

    What I find interesting is that he has a FAQ page about Scientology, where he makes it clear that he is not into it. I guess he gets a lot of questions about that subject. No surprise there. It goes without saying, it would be weird to have a father who founded a notorious cult when you grow up to have nothing to do with it. I can only imagine the kind of crap he gets from people sometimes, because of an accident of birth.

    ETA: I did not realize that Mary Sue was so young when she married Ron. Hubbard was so good at exploiting the idealism and drive that young people often have. No wonder she was such a good soldier for him, going to prison to protect his “good name”. Hook ’em young, and you hook ’em deep.

  • Observer

    Whoa…it looks like Hubbard’s teeth were catching. I wonder if he stopped her from going to the dentist.

    F5

    • MaxSpaceman

      it was body thetans ‘being’ tooth decay,

      clusters being tartar,

      more BTs being cavities. No dentists: it’s an auditing procedure.:)

      • madge filpot

        TOTALLY hilarious! lolol.. very very good.

    • aegerprimo

      Not brushing your teeth, drinking and smoking and taking pinks and greys…. will take it’s toll.
      Look at her baggy eyes!

      • She was quite a piece of work, that Mary Sue. But, to be fair, eye bags tend to be a feature of facial structure. On the Norwegian side of my family, even the babies have eye bags (they get more pronounced with age until a full set of luggage is acquired in one’s fifties). These are not to be confused with man-bags;)

        *Pay no attention to me. I’ve had way too much tea after being up all night watching comet debris burn up in the atmosphere. It’s gonna be like this all day.

        • aegerprimo

          I understand! I’m on call today, drinking coffee and hoping my cell phone does not ring. Yep, it’s gonna be like this all day.

    • Spackle Motion

      Woof. Are we sure she wasn’t British?

  • Out and about

    Rotten people, rotten mouths!

  • Todd Tomorrow

    Off to play blackjack but I think for a suicide by auto fumes Quinten’s death should be reopened as a murder.

  • While testing youtube, i came up with this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNZlaASA10U

  • nottrue
    • I never thought i’d be seeing this tweet from David Cooke!

      • Supper Powers

        Remind me who David Cooke is, please. So many people to keep track of!

        • i have no idea and i also suffer from – Too many people to keep track on!

          • MaxSpaceman

            (so many that you simply auto-say, that you thought you’d never would be seeing that tweet from them! 😉

      • Harpoona Frittata

        Indeed! Please tell us more, David Cooke!

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Who is David Cooke, do you know, nottrue?

  • Todd Tomorrow
    • He was viciously fair-gamed and struck back with the album “$cientology $ucks$”.
      A hero of mine.
      I was in touch with Enturbulator some time ago.
      He gave permission to use his songs in the struggle.
      He is obviously extremely talented and I often wonder what he’s doing these days.
      One may legally download the entire album, which I highly recommend, here:
      http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=23466&content=music

      A statement from 2002 (he’s been it it for a long time):
      http://smokyhole.org/cos/enturb009mission.htm

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Thanks Shorpy,I’ve played it my car and have had several friend’s love it without know quite what it is about. I’d love to hear how he is doing, too. Thanks for the link to the interview, that is something I’d never read before.

        • I know there was a write up somewhere about the fair-gaming and the subsequent album, but I can’t find it.
          Avagrams, etc.
          Brave guy, and a Subgenius if I’m correct.
          When you say you’ve played “it”, do you mean the song or the album?
          I used a couple songs in videos
          “Avagram” and “No OTs”.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            I’ve played it in the car. Subgenius1 worked on the No ot’s video. Did you work with him?

            • Yeah, that’s me, I just got tired of that name.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              I wondered where you went.

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    Chris and Yuval, thanks. I enjoyed listening to your podcast. Interesting information.

    L. Ron Hubbard, the madman. He sure fooled a lot of us, didn’t he?
    And, unfortunately, STILL some 20.000 of his followers are left.

    • Robert Eckert

      The Pied Piper of Hamelin is based on a true case. “Pied” meant “dressed in striped or checked or patchy clothing” which only jesters, clowns, and jugglers did in those days. The rat-catcher of the town liked to dress up funny and play silly songs to entertain the kids, and then drag them down into the sewers (think John Wayne Gacy). Nobody thought to connect the beloved clown with the many strange disappearances until he had racked up quite a body-count. The story that he was taking revenge for being underpaid was just the town’s effort to make some sense of what could have motivated such behavior, back in the days when pedophilia was not well understood and hardly ever talked about.

      • aegerprimo

        That is a hell-of-a rabbit hole.

      • HillieOnTheBeach

        Indirectly on this subject: many tales involve evil step-mothers. An inadvertant acknowledgment of extremely high maternal death rates. Many families eventually had step-mothers whose loyalty and affections to a predecessor’s children may not come naturally. To the point it became a forgone conclusion.

      • gtsix

        That’s definitely one theory of what happened. What is known is around 130 “children of the town” disappeared in the 13th century. ( I put the children in quotes as they may not have all been children, as calling someone a child of the town was to say they were born in that town, and could have meant young unmarried person.)

        Another theory is that they followed a music/magic man to become settlers in the east, or that they joined up in a children’s crusade, or that they died of the plague (though the plague wasnt rampant at that time, and that would more than.likely have been recorded).

        No one knows for certain what happened, except the young people disappeared (this was recorded in the town ledger), and there are no records of them showing up anywhere else. (And apparently the rats were added to the story in the 15/16th century. )

        Fairy tales are real yo!

  • Sid (Phil Jones)

    When that photo of me with Arthur was taken I was on Toronto Org staff at the time. A year prior to that I had lots of money for a teenager. I had investments, college fund, and a few inheritances from my grandparents. By 1973 I was drained of cash and living on staff for $4.12 a week. I was living on peanut butter sandwiches and getting skinnier all the time. I spent another year on staff after this photo and then left. I never went back on staff anywhere and always avoided the Sea Org completely. The only good thing that came out of that era was meeting Willie.

    • aegerprimo

      It is amazing how life works out. Now you and Willie are inspiring activists.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      Another typical tale of traveling The Bridge to Total Financial Ruin and Other-Determinism.

      Thanks for all of your and Willie’s efforts to re-unite families and bring the heinous policy of disconnection out into very public view!

    • madge filpot

      Phil- I was in the Toronto org Div 6 reg/Power book slogger from 1971-mid 72, then went to the ship. Were you there then? In the old Morgue building.. (gawd creeped me out at night) GO upstairs, Mick Lewis Div 6 – Stu Div 2?

      • Sid (Phil Jones)

        I was there in ’70 and then was out west until mid-72 when I returned to the Org there. I knew Mick Lewis, and Stu Smith. That old building burned to the ground about 10 years after that.

      • Robert Ramsay

        The name Steve Kale ring a bell ?

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Truly horrible.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    I think Clark Carr looked better in a hat…
    (refresh)

    • aegerprimo

      As long as his hat matches his man-purse.

    • stillgrace2

      That’s really him in the center? Do you know who the other people are in the picture? I’m intrigued … I never pictured him as a family man and yet – here he is. If you’re comfortable with sharing more info … I have a question. Where did you get this picture? Thank you for posting this photo ( I’m guessing 1974).

      • Intergalactic Walrus

        This photo is from his Facebook page. “This is 1972ish, when Tom Solari (top right) and I were performing with Sonny and Cher, I think. Several families bunched together here. Hair, hats, and a lotta love.” – with Ramona Head (back left) and Erin Imhoff (blond girl in white boots)
        Here is the conversation about it…
        (refresh)

        • stillgrace2

          Thanks for the explanation! Music Memories. Sonny and Cher.

        • daisy

          Wait ..what You performed with Sonny and Cher ? cool Wasn’t Sonny a scientologist ?

          • Intergalactic Walrus

            Yeah, Carr went from the Sonny & Cher show to the Narconon scam. Talk about a show-biz career hitting the skids…

    • Spackle Motion

      Why is it that everyone in the 70s looked like they were in a cult?

  • David Arum

    This is a very interesting conversation(Chris Shelton ).There is a caution for former cult members,don’t think that another would-be leader,save for an intact brain could bring about salvation.

  • Whoops, Tornado warning in effect in Northern Greater Toronto.

    (First rain we’ve had in weeks too!)

    • Fun time to be in the CN Tower.

    • madge filpot

      My brother is in Sutton RM.. Tornados there too?

  • Jimmy3

    I wonder if she had a cool prison name. Like Bloody Mary or Red Snow.

    • Jimmy3

      Whipp It Bad

  • ExCult.Jan

    How can Co$ claim disconnection is not a policy when ethics orders like the one I just stumbled on exist (while looking up a Battlefield Earth reviewer). But then, is it even for real? Woven through it are admissions that communicating with the declared SPs would likely result in the actual truth behind admitted Co$ lies being revealed. It’s quite bizarre to me. If it’s for real, it’s an astounding example of cognitive dissonance.
    http://www.ethicsorders.org/file/Palmer-SP-Declare.pdf

    “Even though Vicki and Richard never advised anyone to leave the church, the lies they were spreading would have encouraged people to leave the church if they ever found out they were true.”

    “No Scientologist should attempt to communicate with Vicki or Richard or anyone who is in comm with them. Scientologists need to create a buffer zone in this manner.The rumors mentioned are so compelling that if they manage to get into the mind of a Scientologist they may find themselves asking questions that will result in the same condition.”

    • Supper Powers

      That’s a brutal website.

    • Robert Eckert

      It would be terrible if people ever found out that the lies they were spreading were all true.

  • OTVIIIisGrrr8!

    The Rev. Dr. David Miscavige: Off Source is the new On Source!

    https://otviiisgrrr8.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/cob-noise.png?w=500

    Speaking today from the set of Nation of Islam Scientology Education (NOISE) at the SMP studios, the Reverend Doctor David Miscavige declared, “Off Source is the new On Source!”

    Explained the Rev. Dr. Miscavige, “The Tech moves in great arcs and circles across quadrillions of years of time and this is why yesterday’s Off Source inevitably becomes today’s On Source, ergo IAS statuses are the New OTX. Which is to say, positive case gain is possible for the first time in millennia by donating to the IAS.”

    “And by way of new Scientology Policy which I myself have just created based upon the Founder’s lost tech, the EP of ecclesiastical embezzling — or otherwise taking money from others to fund your IAS donations — is this: “I promise not to return to crime if I am set free by the police. It was the work of the devil!”

  • There’s one of Hubbard’s unusual neurological symptoms that Messrs. Laor and Shelton appear to have missed—as did Mary Sue… (Come up to the lab and see what’s on the slab):

    • JaxNGold

      LOL. Excellent Rocky Horror reference.

    • outraged

      Talk about wearing your heart on your sleeve, LRH wore his brain on his head.

      • OOkpik

        Notice that it is completely empty?!

    • Supper Powers

      Great work with the pig.

      • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

        Yes, just by slapping a giant brain onto his head, we see Ron as he saw himself.

        • Supper Powers

          That and the subtle flying pig behind the family.

          • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

            Oh, I see what you mean – when I hear pig, I automatically think LRH.

            • Supper Powers

              Absolutely!

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      I am shivering with antici…

    • Spackle Motion

      Mary Sue had more of a gargle-yuck-mouth than the thing with no brain.

  • Little David

    “Diana is the last member of the family who is still involved in the church. She spends most of her time at Int Base.”

    What building at Int Base does she live in?

  • Jeb Burton

    Scientology was more fun when we were a bunch of free thinking hippies. I look at that picture and think these people had no idea of the nightmare Scientology was to become.

    • You where a Scientologist?

    • stillgrace2

      I know exactly what you mean about the hippy days. Some thought it was cool to check out scientology. In the LA crowd I ran with in the 70’s, I remember being put in the middle of an argument (as a peace maker) between two hippy-kinda-guys at a party. One of them was rabidly anti-psychiatry and anti-drugs. The other had experience with family members with mental problems and had witnessed how much better things can be with the right medications.

      Long story short- the rabid guy never actually mentioned he was a scientologist, but forty years later I can look back and I know he was.

    • Techie

      This is what happened to the free thinking hippies. Now living in the past and wishing they could go back in a time machine to the free love and great drugs that screwed them up long ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knprj9hYGdw

  • Lousy Ratatouille

    Mary Sue already knew in 1951: SOMEDAY MY PRINCE WILL COME:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQZ6zzLpoNQ

  • Liberated

    Just finished the Chris Shelton video Wow . I’m just curious, did Excalibur have a cliff’s notes version?

    • Techie

      I am still alive so obviously I never read it but the impression I get is that the Cliff Notes version would be something like:

      Hey dude I am really trippin’ man! Can you dig it? Like a flash to the brain, like that time I hit my head after popping all those amphetamines, with the lights flashing everywhere man!…Like dude, I totally got the answer to the whole plight of the human race and Darwin and Freud and Herbert Spencer and Nietzsche all got together in my head man and there was like this smoking sword or maybe it was something even bigger…the same shape…lightning running up and down it … and hey man I really got it! Dude, man is trying to survive! It’s not all about sex like Freud said, or at least not mostly or maybe but really dude man is and he wants to like get on with it or get it on or something and it all makes sense somehow! Or something. I mean man wants to have sex, sure, but he also wants babies. I think. And he wants groups to be enslaved to him and he wants all mankind to bow down to him but mostly he wants tons of money and to survive! That’s the secret! Got any munchies man?

      • Juicer77

        XD

  • Vaquera

    Yuval !! Hi stranger! I still haven’t mastered the rubber band trick. Need another tutoring session. 🙂
    Great interview!
    to add: In Toronto at the Getting Clear conference last summer…f5

    • Juicer77

      That’s an all-star group you’ve got there! Please say hello to everyone!

      • Vaquera

        Ha! That was last summer in Toronto.

        • Juicer77

          You booger. 😉 I was wondering what huge conference news we had missed!!

          • Vaquera

            I assumed that by saying Toronto y’all would know that I meant at the Getting Clear Conference. My bad. Fixed it.

    • beauty for ashes

      Is it weird that I just want to hug all of you? And once again gorgeous Vaquera is gorgeous.

    • madge filpot

      Hana. Looks great there!

  • Supper Powers

    So, Scientology is the result of epilepsy and assholism. I’ll buy it.

    • Juicer77

      It’s certainly an interesting theory. Although I wonder how much of Dead LRon’s narcissism came from his early childhood, when he was doted on by every member of the family, especially his many aunts. As he grew older, not everyone saw him as the golden boy. Whenever he was questioned or thwarted he got really nasty. Nature + nurture every time, IMHO.

    • ExCult.Jan

      If assholism = narcissism.
      Narcissism is the common thread between destructive cult leaders. TLE could certainly add flavor.

      One of the most useful books when I had recently exited and was self-deprogramming was “The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power” by Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad.

  • TexasBroad

    Wow. Chris’ and Yuval’s video has completely taken over my brain today (unfortunately, it is supposed to be at work!) because, while listening to the cluster of traits and thinking about their relationship to LRon, it hit me that Yuval was describing my sister! My family has tended to think she suffers from a personality or mental disorder which made her susceptible and vulnerable to the harmful religious cult she joined 46 years ago so it is interesting to consider that her religiosity and some other socially dysfunctional traits could instead be symptomatic of a neurological disorder instead. She has large and small portions of her life she does not remember at all; others that she would describe completely differently than anyone else that experienced them with her. She has had over 30 car accidents in her life and many, many more other accidents, like falling off ladders, tripping, cutting herself, etc. She has accidentally caught her kitchen on fire three times. Mini Epileptic seizures? I look forward to listening again and take more of it in. Not that this does any good. She would never consider going to an actual doctor. She is strictly prayer, aromatherapy, and alternative medicine. She never met a MLM product she didn’t believe would change her life. I’m obviously not qualified to diagnose her, but I am always seeking some sort of understanding.
    I can’t wait to dig into the comments later. I can’t wait to read everyone’s thoughts on LRH and the video.
    I learn so much here.
    Editing to add – I reread and want to clarify that the reason we though she suffers from a mental or personality disorder was NOT because she joined an extreme religious group but because of the other issues…grandiose ideas, narcissism, memory lapses, b/w thinking etc.

    • Vaquera

      Watch the video that Chris has linked to the interview on YouTube. Yuval had Pan and I watch it last year. Quite moving. xoxo

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Yuval, thank you for the interview with Chris.

    I have spent a few hours today rereading “The Religious Ape,” your doctoral dissertation.
    There is much food for thought in the 466 pages.
    I feel that there is a popular book in there if you want.

    The overview of the many explanations of the origins of the religious impulse is comprehensive.
    And your explorations of the lacunae in them thorough, if brief.
    Your arguments convince.
    Your chapter on Lord Hubris and $cientology is excellent.

    What was wrong with Hubbard?
    Surely it would be easier and certainly shorter to list what was right.

    Kudos.
    TLE is an interesting wrinkle.
    We need to have a chat over a few beers 🙂

  • flyonthewall

    Taught my youngest son today about theater hopping and saw a double feature, Jason Bourne and Suicide Squad. Both great movie films. SS might be the better one as it doesn’t take itself so seriously and was pretty funny and had a hot chick (Harlequin). Jared Leto’s Joker was pretty dang good even though I can’t stand Leto bc I think he’s a pretentious douche. I sensed strong influences of Heath Ledger Joker on Leto’s but *shrug* kinda hard to come out from Heath’s Joker shadow.

    Bourne didn’t disappoint, great addition to the franchise. Excellent action sequences, especially the Greek riots and final car chase. Is kinda preachy with the privacy/govt intrusion stuff but not in a ham-fisted or distracting way.

    This has been Fly at the Movies. Thank you for listening.

    • Thank you for the report, I want to see them both.

      • flyonthewall

        lazy mindless fun = SS. Make you think action thriller = Bourne. Just depends on your mood at the time. Let me know what you think once you see them.

    • iampissed

      Interesting my son who has been a huge movie buff from the age of about 10 said
      Suicide Squad was the worst movie he had ever seen. From him that’s a pretty bad
      review. Movie seems to be very polarizing.

      • flyonthewall

        Hmm. Well idk if he’s a fan of the comics or not but I had never read them so I didn’t have that baggage going in. To me, it was just fun eye candy. I wasn’t expecting anything heavy or profound like Nolan’s Batman movies. There really is no character depth/development worth mentioning and it is clumsy at times but the costumes are cool, the f/x good and I chuckled more than once. Plus I went with an 11yr old boy who was really excited to see it so that made a difference too, the company.

        • iampissed

          Yea I remember getting my son all of the episodes of cowboy bebop for xmas
          when he was about 13 or so. Some folks said it might be a bit much, I said he
          could handle it. He’s is/was more of an anime fan then a Marvel/DC fan when
          he was young, loves most things Asian/Japan hell we/I said that for his High
          School graduation he could go to Japan. He was supposed to go with two of
          his buddies we’ll both of the two other guys parents back out kind of at the last
          minute, so my kid went by himself at 5 days after he turned 18. That way I got to tell
          him that if he landed in jail I was not obligated to get him out. Funny the next year
          one of the friends that backed out his parents let him go with my son to Japan.
          I told them their son would be OK. The company you keep at movies can be a
          huge thing in how you remember it. You did pay for the second movie didn’t you?
          Otherwise I’ll have to get the FlySwater!

          • flyonthewall

            No I did not pay and I brought my own food/drinks even though there were large signs telling me not to. I did turn down an opportunity to get extra stamps on my frequent guest card so I think that good deed makes up for the bad ones.

            • iampissed

              One torrents to have the understanding of how to do it, I’ve done it. But one must ask
              at what point am I not supporting new artists. Yea I know Kanye dosnt need my five cents.
              Think of a world where we don’t pay for art! You will get the art you deserve.

            • flyonthewall

              *eyeroll* I don’t torrent or buy pirate dvds either

            • iampissed

              Fair…but ya might inform your son that it’s not quite kosher. It’s a good father son discussion.

            • flyonthewall

              don’t fucking give me parenting advice or tell me how to raise my kid

            • iampissed

              See above please

            • iampissed

              I apologize…didn’t feel I was. Was hoping I was talking father to father.
              PEACE PLEASE!

            • flyonthewall

              all good

            • iampissed

              All good…I work in the biz just so you know

            • flyonthewall

              cool. So you prob know theaters make more money from snacks than they do from tkt sales?

            • Todd Tomorrow

              You gotta watch Fly. About a week ago somebody pissed in his cornflakes. I think it was my Mum.

            • iampissed

              I also don’t care about snacks. Although maybe I should.

    • gtsix

      What is theater hopping?

      Edited cuz I can’t spell 4 words properly

      • flyonthewall

        when you pay for one movie, see it and then sneak into a 2nd once the one you paid for is over.

        • gtsix

          That’s what I thought. Haven’t done that in years. Hell, I haven’t seen a movie in a theater in years.

          And yet you pay for online newspaper access. 😉

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      I wonder if Damon or Leto shop at Gelson’s… 😉
      (refresh)

      • OOkpik

        Lucky (Redacted)!
        Academy award winters are a rare phenomenon indeed and to have one look at you and smile – CHILLING!!

        ETA: I make a ton of mistakes too but found that one amusing. Simple minds and all…

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          Only with Oscar worthy acting skills could I pull off the amazing feat of greeting someone wearing that ridiculous shirt with a smile, instead of an immediate outburst of hysterical laughter!

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Isn’t earth called Teegeack Junction?

    • Robert Eckert

      The Bourne was OK, but I was disturbed to see a Golden Dawn flag among the Communist flags in the Athens riot scene: no, those two would not be at the same rally except to fight each other. And I thought the car chase went way the past the very generous margin of willing-suspension-of-disbelief that I grant to such things.

      • flyonthewall

        I didn’t notice the Golden Dawn flags, nice catch. Weird that they went to the trouble of adding that level of detail but then fumbled it.

        The cars being flung like mud was cool, come on. And landing on top the windshield to blind him?? It could happen. Incredulity aside, it looked to me like the Dodge Charger has some amazing features and I will be visiting my local dealer ASAP.

  • chukicita

    OT: California wildfire is burning just a couple miles from the Crestline/Lake Arrowhead/Twin Peaks area vault site.

    More than 8,000 acres are on fire. Current resources assigned: 47 Crews, 49 Engines, 15 Dozers,11 Water Tenders, 13 Helicopters, 8 Air Tankers. Just in case this caught the OT’s sleepin’.

    I hope someone thought to make sure Shelly’s okay.

    http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4932/

    • Good point regarding Shelly. We know it was built to preserve Hubbard’s blubber and what not, not so sure about humans.

      • chukicita

        Why do I hear a conversation in the back of my mind that ends with “if she dies, she dies?”

        • Johnny Tank (Forever Autumn)

          That would simplify things for DM, the great humanitarian.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Her name, it was Mary Sue Whipp.
    A crazy trip, she captained his ship.
    Her spying a fail,
    She finished in jail
    While the coward to Creston did skip

    Does Diana, when she contemplates the razor-wire in Hemet, ever think of her mother’s study of fencing?
    Does Arthur, when he paints with his blood, ever think of the rivers of blood his father spilt?
    Does DM get a sadistic pleasure from demeaning Diana?
    Does DM spy on Arthur and Suzette?

    The last two, I believe I can answer with some conviction.

    • flyonthewall

      so it is official then, Mary Sue was a WICAN

      • iampissed

        So why WICAN…I’ve hung with WICANS and Pagans. They can be fun folk.

        • flyonthewall

          Article says she was in Women’s Inter-Community Association or WICA. WICA – Wiccan. She did black magic/witchcraft w/Hubbard. Bu-dum cha

          • jazzlover

            You’re mysteriously adding an invisible “C”.

            • flyonthewall

              you guys are hurting my brain today, lol. Later

          • iampissed

            Got it flew over my head…again sorry

          • iampissed

            Funny everyone talks about the statement about
            Do as that will be the whole of the law. Well no one talks about
            The three fold law. What you do good or bad comes back 3 fold.
            I’ve always worked with the former.

            • iampissed

              I work for the good side…PS I’m not a Wiccan
              Nothing wrong with that!

            • Kestrel

              I operate from the perspective that it takes 100 “attaboys” to make up for one “ah, shit.”

            • iampissed

              Yep

    • chukicita

      Oh, to see the line item for ‘keeping an eye on Hubbard’s offspring” in the IAS expenses.

  • Missionary Kid

    For all of you suffering in the heat, I feel for ya. Where I live, at 5 pm, it was 106 F, but the humidity was 10%. Palm Springs was 111F, and their humidity level was 20%. I really feel for you guys that have had to endure temperatures close to 100 F, but humidity levels that were 70-80%. I’m lucky. Stay cool, Bunkeroos.

    • Liberated

      Thank you for your concern, and yes the humidity is unbearable, but today we are having a much needed rain.

      • Missionary Kid

        When it rains here in the summer time, the heat is truly miserable, because that puts the humidity way up. Even then, it doesn’t approach the discomfort that I’ve felt in the South and Midwest during the Summer, with 80 degrees and 100% humidity.

      • Todd Tomorrow

        Can you get those dehumidifiers? Do they work? I lived in Rio for a good part of my life and loved the humidity. Get me near dry heat and my nose innards start cracking and I get heat rash.

        • Liberated

          No, humidifiers might work inside the house once and awhile, but would do nothing about over all humidity. It’s just the way it is.
          I suppose our beautiful falls make up for it, at least that’s what I tell myself.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            And you live in, Hubbardsville,NY?

            • Liberated

              No my dear, Indianapolis.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              I have a good friend who lives in the strangest city in your state, Zionsville. Made a fortune in the house building business. He built a cabin(nine bedroom house) less than five miles away from his mansion. Even has a man made pond stocked with fish so his twin boy’s can catch fish. A city of say 23,000 (guessing) with a Rolls Royce dealer downtown.
              Edit. I will have to say as a state you have some of the nicest people.

            • Liberated

              Yep, sounds about right. Zionsville is the richest city in the state, that’s a fact.
              It is small, it has charm, Main Street is made of brick, kinda touristy.
              Lots of antique shops and some fun restaurants. We used to walk around and occasionally peer inside the Rolls Royce dealership and crack jokes, ( it’s appt. only). It’s actually pretty close to me.
              Lots of doctors live there, the only black person that lived there (that I know of) was Jermaine O’Neal ( played for the Pacers). BTW, Jared the subway guy
              lived there. I actually like the town sometimes I go there by myself and check out antiques.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              My weakness antiques and clothes especially running shoes. The Rolls dealer is funny but not Jerrid . Gotta go find out if they finally put him away.

            • Liberated

              Jared is in the “big house” serving 15yrs. my son went to high school w/him.
              Everybody hated his fat ass.
              I adore antiques too.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Anybody that messes or looks at children in a sexual manner deserve to have a rather horrid time in the big house. I’ve heard that your strangly popular if you murder someone but if you’re a pedofile they break your bones.

            • Liberated

              Yes, he’s been beat up pretty bad, I think he’s in solitary now.
              I feel sorry for his parents and his wife and kids.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              I’m glad his kid’s are safe from him.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Now officially sick to my stomach. What a tool.

    • ReallyMGM

      Hey, 100F with 70-80% humidity? That’s just July and August here!

      I always laugh when when I hear the statement, “But it’s dry heat,” because 111F is f’ing hot regardless.

      • Missionary Kid

        I’ve seen 123 F here in the summer time, and I was running a construction crew. (That’s 50.6 C.) What we did was set up in the morning, about 5:00 am, while it was dark, and start working when it got light enough. The crew got to go home about 2:00 when it got hot, but I had to order materials, etc. I’ll still take that over 90 & 100% any day.

        100 F is just on the edge of comfort here, if you stay out of the sun, and the humidity is a usual 10 -15%. At least, when you sweat, it evaporates. Swamp (evaporative) coolers actually work, and lower the temperature at least 20 degrees.

        It is not good when you see clouds here, even when they’re at 10,000′, because that means that the humidity is relatively high (up to 30 %). Right now, it’s 96.6 F, but the “feels like temp. is 92.

        I was in Pensacola in the summer time for two years, and the humidity was miserable. I also used to spend the summers in Iowa as a kid, and worked out in the fields with my cousins. 80+ F was miserable and we didn’t have air conditioning. At least, in both places, it was green.

        About 10 years ago, I was in Oshkosh before the airshow, and it hit 104 F. Luckily, I was staying in and air conditioned house. The sweat didn’t evaporate.

        I also lived in Chicago in the summer time. You would come home, take a shower to clean off the sweat and cool off, change your shirt, and by the time you walked outside, you’d need to change your shirt again immediately because it was soaked with sweat.

    • Frodis73

      I so wish I was in your area right now…I love heat, but hate humidity. You don’t even have to move around and you will sweat buckets today…it is absolutely brutal today…has been all week actually.

      • Missionary Kid

        Here, it only gets brutal after about noon, if you’re out in the sun. You learn to drink a LOT of water, and I take a Pedialyte clone, from Costco that is lower in sugar and tastes better to me than the real thing, and isn’t as sweet as Gatorade.

  • Hope everyone having a good time.

    • Kestrel

      I am. Hope you are as well.

  • Jo

    I do love, that the dog lived another 11 years, must of pissed them off. Dogs are awesome.

    • Too bad she didn’t have a turtle and a raven.

      • Jo

        They live longer? How’s u Dodo?

        • Yeah. Dodo is good. How are you, Jo?

          • Jo

            I’m good, trying to be a kinship foster. It’s not going well. Hanging in there.

            • What is kinship foster?

            • Jo

              It’s like plan b. Edit

            • Sounds like you are helping.

            • Jo

              Thanks, they stayed with me for the first 2 months, I will always cherish that.

        • Robert Eckert

          A turtle that belonged to General Clive, who captured Bengal for the British Empire in 1761, died a few years back at an age somewhat over 250

          • I heard a scientist claiming that they don’t die of age, and either do mammals.

            • Robert Eckert

              Some in the Indian press accused the zoo of not properly caring for the venerable turtle.

    • Kay

      Yesss….I enjoyed that part immensely !! Good doggy….

  • joan nieman

    It is late in the day and I have just had a chance to listen to your video Chris. I must say that it is an extraordinary discussion which delves into yet another concept. I so enjoyed it and thank you for your concise and clear explanations. Carry on!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    Today, 13 August, was Sea Org day.

    I got a report that they were oddly quietly absent from their normal routines, hardly anyone milling around the HGB where they usually are.

    That means they likely all bused straight from their berthing buildings out to the beach hotel they rented, for changing and lounging, and then hit the beach for their Sea Org anniversary.

    This bodes that they seem to NOT be in the shits totally, where when they are in the shits, they don’t get their Sea Org day off to go out and enjoy it.

    Looks like they may have had the day off.

    Sunburnt Sea Orgers should be looked for Sunday, since that’s the norm. They get sunburnt when they get their Sea Org day off to hit the beach.

    • Robert Eckert

      It was also the birthday of Padma Sambhava, known in Tibet as Guru Rinpoche because he was the first Buddhist missionary to that country, or at least the first to make a large number of converts, and his birthday was particularly auspicious this year because it is a Fire Monkey year as was his birth year (the element-animal names recur every 60 years).

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Sun worship for the outdoors/nature starved Sea Orgers on their Sea Org day off, today.

        We’ll see if the Sea Org is around in 60 years for them to start animalizing their Sea Org day cycles, LOL.

        They are likely in the sunburnt era still.

    • sizzle8

      Is Sea Org day the day they get upgraded in rank?

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Yes, they get promoted on Sea Org day if they’ve deserved it and done their paperwork and gained approval to be promoted.

        It would be something to photograph, but I doubt anyone’s out to the beach hotel locations and within sight of the Sea Orgers to catch them with their decked out uniforms on.

  • Observer

    OT

    F5

  • Shanester

    Hello Bunkeroos,

    I hope everyone has been doing well. I’ve been taking care of personal stuff, along with trying to stay cool in the high desert of Northern Nevada. (Good grief! Five days of 100+ weather is rough stuff for this Pacific Northwest boy). Just caught up on a few days of Bunker articles and came down to the comments when I realized it had been so long since I had commented that Disqus signed me out. Anyway, I’m still here. Glad the Bunker is too.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      The weather was a scorching 58 as I drove across the Golden Gate Bridge today. I sure love visiting the weather in N. California especially San Fran. Luckily I packed a light jacket.

      • Kay

        I’m trying not to hate you…….58 degrees? It has been upper nineties through 103 degrees for weeks where I am which is unusual. I can’t stand it. If I had been there I would have been so ecstatic I would have been tempted to streak across the bridge, truly.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          And people here have been bitching about the jacket weather.

          • Kay

            Laugh…..last time I was in San Francisco I couldn’t believe how people were bundled up like they were going to hit the ski slopes when it was only around 55 degrees out. Since I live in the mountains and run around in a sweatshirt, jeans and no coat when it’s 32 degrees out, I found it to be extremely amusing. People there were in down parkas and heavy gloves…I was really surprised. I don’t put gloves and a down parka on until it’s in the mid to low twenties…I guess it’s what you are used to. I asked the concierge at the hotel if people were expecting an imminent arctic front….she was not amused. She said “It is really cold out that’s why people have down parkas and sweaters on.” Uh, OK

            • Missionary Kid

              San Francisco has higher humidity than what you see up in the mountains so the chill factor is much higher, and people aren’t as active.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              What are you talking about? Not active? Not only do people walk up and down the hills everywhere but you don’t see as many fat people as you do in most US cities. Not active? You need to visit just the airport and you’ll notice the lack of fat. Landing in say Dallas looks like you’ve arrived at a human feed lot. I see elderly ladies with their shopping carts hiking up and down these hills.
              Edit: MK’s needle falls off FAIL.

            • Missionary Kid

              You are correct. It was a giant FAIL. That last part was a brain fart: “people aren’t as active.” I can’t even remember what I meant to write.

              I grew up close to the Rose Bowl, and the locals come to the game bundled up, because on Jan. 1, with the bowl down in Arroyo Seco, the sun goes down at about 3 or 4, and the chill sets in, especially since the bowl seating was concrete. The visitors are out there in tank tops, because, especially from Big Ten schools, to them, it’s balmy compared to back home.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              It is funny on the waterfront. Tourist venture down their at night and the fleece vests and hoodies fly off the shelves. You can get two badly made fleece vests for 12$.

    • Kay

      Hi Shanester, long time no see !! Stay cool.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Good to see you.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Hey there! Slow day today, so it is good to see some of the familiar faces (so to speak).

    • TheMirrorThetan

      Hey Shanester. Glad your back.

  • Frodis73

    Hit and run gang…I just came across this by accident. I don’t have time to watch, but I did check the first couple mins and it seems pretty funny.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ74LVawLkc

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Find the time. Get mad!

    • Todd Tomorrow

      “All this nonsense makes more sense”

  • JJ

    Thank you Chris and Tuval. So much of the symptoms of TLE via Hubbard seem to resonate with alleged behaviors of DM? Are we looking at a brain disorder here as well, or a personalty that finds a sympathetic outlet for quirks and systems in alignment with Hubbard’s symptoms. Need to be important, impact life, nit-picking control, obsession, punitive reactions to any perceived faults in others, paranoia majora, morality, black and white, uncritical thinking, us versus them posturing, absolute certainty? Power isn’t given… Where does the biochemical and the psychological meet? Did DM, like so many fundamentalists who feel they have had a Sea Change of self in a “new” discovery of religion really just “find” aspects of himself in Scientology and feel a homecoming joy that someone else saw the world as he did and then just fall into his niche. And then manipulate it to his own ends ever since?

    • Ann B Watson

      Hi JJ, Thank you for an interesting comment.All info on Ron /dm can help me piece together some answers to what deep down I knew was very off kilter in Sea Org,but I could not admit that for years.It is so ridiculous that one little speck of my mind used to feel that blowing was my fault.Ron was so good at make wrong.However I am past that now,I know what happened to me was not my fault.xo

  • valshifter

    Not this skinny? (A sea org worker in a hurry to catch the train) yesterday, I thought he was unusually skinny but some of them do watch their diet, no judgement here.

    • daisy

      I think it is his height I would notice first .

      • InterestedObserver12

        For me it is the shirt that is several sizes too large in all respects.

    • Looks like a rice and beans devotee to me.

  • TheMirrorThetan

    Thanks Chris and Yuval. Listening right now. I had never heard of Temporal lobe epilepsy before.
    Due to my head injury and bipolar I have had all the symptoms except the paranoia and excessive writing.
    Thank god he died after I was born so I can’t be LRH reincarnated.
    Just the thought of being that git makes me wanna vomit. 🙂

    • What’sup

      ….

      • TheMirrorThetan

        Haha. Great pic.

  • InterestedObserver12

    Yuval says epilepsy is caused by tumors or scars in the brain. Question: Short of physical impacts, how can a brain become scarred? I know people with no brain tumors or history of brain injuries – people who seem to have been born with the condition. Any info would be appreciated, Yuval. Thanks.

    • littlefish

      I believe brains can be scarred via over active immune system to a degree – it’s a different organ but I suffered this as a child when my immune system went haywire and began attacking my kidneys. I know my doctors at the time were concerned with the possibility of my immune system doing the same thing to other major organs – specifically the brain.

  • After Solari & Carr stopped showing up on TV shows (because they were more weird than good) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7B1IkoK2Q – Clark started an L.A. Theater magazine called Footlights that went for several years. Then he got an investor and a big Century City office and turned it into full coloar (as if there was a market for a big full-color theater mag in Los Angeles). I was in NYC researching a screenplay and interviewed Tennessee Williams for the mag, but it went under before the interview could be published – I think it lasted all of two issues in the new format. So past the early 70s Sonny & Cher and other show heyday, Clark has bounced from one goofball thing to another. He might’ve had groupies in that picture, but it never got any bigger than that. It seems highly appropriate that he’s in Tijuana now, if he is.

  • I dated Mary Sue’s best friend and “communicator” when they were on the Apollo, Nikki Merwin. One of the most shocking things I ever heard in $cientology was when I asked her what Hubbard thought about MSH going to jail. She said, “Well, it upset him that they strip-searched her in prison.” That was it. Elwrong, fiend of mankind.

  • Supper Powers

    Cupping is bullshit. If you think differently and want discuss, let me know. What the fuck is cupping?!?