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When will academics acknowledge that the Scientology ‘apostate’ theory is finished?

Apostate

 
We’re deep into reporting several cool stories coming your way, so we just had time for a quick thought for you today. We noticed over at the forums that Scientology has put out, among its flood of recent press releases, an announcement about its newest pet academic.

That reminded us of something we’ve wanted to point out for a while now. There will always be religious studies types at universities who run interference for Scientology. Why? Well, we think it has something to do with the nature of the field itself. Except for a very few who see things clearly, such as Stephen Kent and Susan Raine, the rest betray a need to preserve the field, which, let’s face it, is getting less important every day.

Anyway, one of the chief ways that academics provide succor for Scientology, even some of the “better” ones, who have written critical pieces about the church, is that they disavow the testimony of “apostates.” They assume that anyone who has left an organization like the Church of Scientology has an axe to grind, and that one should automatically discount the claims made about the “spirituality” of a group by someone who no longer has that spirit.

As recently as just a couple of years ago, we have seen very mainstream, very respected religious studies types making the claim that the story of Scientology is still not well understood because one must ignore the “apostates,” and the average, everyday Scientologist has not been heard from. Also, the media plays into this notion whenever someone new comes forward, and they treat that person as if their word must be examined alone, and against the official pronouncements of an organization that invariably calls them a liar. We’re thinking, for example, of when Jenna Miscavige Hill made her media rounds when her book was published early in 2013. We saw news organizations ask her to refute what the church was saying about her, as if what she had to say had not been said by literally hundreds of ex-members before her, and that what the church had been saying had been proved to be bogus time and again in court documents.

Academics and the media time and again reduce the testimony of former church members to be a simple case of he-said-versus-she-said, and who knows what the truth is.

Well, it’s time to bury this notion that we have not heard the truth about Scientology because we are only hearing from ex-members. In the last year, the Underground Bunker has brought you previously unheard recordings that shatter the notion that we are relying solely on the personal accounts of ex-members. We are sad to say that except for short portions of the Powell recordings, none of the others have been picked up or even mentioned by other media. And we certainly expect religious studies academics to ignore them.

Don’t believe the ex-members? You don’t need to. Listen for yourself and hear…

…an actual member being excommunicated by being “declared” a “suppressive person,” confirming almost everything ex-members have been telling us about Scientology’s Orwellian system of “ethics.” The Underground Bunker obtained an audio recording of Sylvia DeWall being told that she would be declared suppressive for committing the “crime” of, among other things, watching Leah Remini perform on Dancing with the Stars, and watching a televised interview of author Lawrence Wright. It’s all there — confirmation that Scientology is a snitching culture, that members find themselves being interrogated by young ethics officers who have the power to upend their lives and split apart their families. Don’t believe the exes, listen to it with your own ears.

hours of police interviews with Dwayne and Daniel Powell, two Scientology spies who were caught stalking Ron Miscavige, Sr., father to church leader David Miscavige. Ron escaped from Scientology’s International Base in 2012, and in 2013, the Powells were arrested on a weapons charge and then spilled their guts in these detailed conversations. For decades, ex-church members have told us about elaborate schemes by Miscavige to use private investigators to stalk and harass ex-Scientologists and journalists, right out of L. Ron Hubbard’s 1960s playbook. Don’t believe them. Instead, listen with your own ears as the Powells describe what their job was — for $10,000 in cash a week, to spy on Ron Sr. in exactly the ways Scientology always has.

…the jargon-filled tirades of a high-ranking Scientology Sea Org member as he dresses down compliant church members while being secretly recorded inside a Scientology “org.” Andres Rodriguez is frustrated at the shortcuts church members have been taking, and so he blasts a group of them in a lengthy talk that was recorded and smuggled to us. With the help of Chris Shelton, we decoded what he is saying, and it stunned even long-time former members who told us they didn’t realize things were even worse than they’ve been saying. The Rodriguez recording again confirms what “apostates” have been saying — specifically about the convoluted and arcane steps of Scientology’s “Bridge” of courses. And that alterations made by David Miscavige are making things even more illogical (and, as always, expensive). Don’t believe what ex-members say about the Kafkaesque world of Scientology’s “levels” of advancement — you can hear with your own ears as Andres Rodriguez describes it in detail.

It recently dawned on us how these three recordings, all obtained and posted in full only here at the Underground Bunker, really do represent an advance in the outside world’s understanding of Scientology. Not that we expect the academic world to pay any attention to it. Or even other news organizations.

But our readers know. A corner has been turned. Scientology can recruit as many academic shills as they want. But the truth of what goes on in the Church of Scientology is now out in a way it never has been before.

 
——————–

3D-UnbreakablePosted by Tony Ortega on February 17, 2016 at 07:15

E-mail tips and story ideas to tonyo94 AT gmail DOT com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Our book, The Unbreakable Miss Lovely: How the Church of Scientology tried to destroy Paulette Cooper, is on sale at Amazon in paperback and Kindle editions. We’ve posted photographs of Paulette and scenes from her life at a separate location. Reader Sookie put together a complete index. More information about the book, and our 2015 book tour, can also be found at the book’s dedicated page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS: We read Scientology’s founding text cover to cover with the help of L.A. attorney and former church member Vance Woodward
UP THE BRIDGE: Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists
GETTING OUR ETHICS IN: Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice
SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING: Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts

Other links: Shelly Miscavige, ten years gone | The Lisa McPherson story told in real time | The Cathriona White stories | The Leah Remini ‘Knowledge Reports’ | Hear audio of a Scientology excommunication | Scientology’s little day care of horrors | Whatever happened to Steve Fishman? | Felony charges for Scientology’s drug rehab scam | Why Scientology digs bomb-proof vaults in the desert | PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer | The mystery of the richest Scientologist and his wayward sons | Scientology’s shocking mistreatment of the mentally ill | Scientology boasts about assistance from Google | The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

Our Guide to Alex Gibney’s film ‘Going Clear,’ and our pages about its principal figures…
Jason Beghe | Tom DeVocht | Sara Goldberg | Paul Haggis | Mark “Marty” Rathbun | Mike Rinder | Spanky Taylor | Hana Whitfield

 

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  • Mark Allen Shreck

    Know Scientology?
    5/5
    Congratulations! You are the 190th person to get 5 of 5 correct!
    2525 people have done this quiz.
    Retry quiz

    Read more at http://www.ninemsn.com.au/quizzical/160218-scientology#MgrUeJmKv1ZA8Ckh.99
    Hmmm only 7.5% have scored 5 of 5, and I wonder how many of them are in v. out…

    • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

      Congrats! I’m trying to work out what this means for us select few winners. I’m sure it will be something huge.

      • Newiga

        I hope it’s caek! Chocolate caek. πŸ˜‰

        • Sid (Phil Jones)

          NO! There are no rewards in Scientology. Only punishments. For mentioning caek, which is a huge distraction from production, and in no way forwards the aims of Scientology you have to apply a Condition of Doubt.

          • Newiga

            Aaaaagh! Do I have to do the doubt formula now? Can’t I just get myself out of doubt by eating cake?

            • Sid (Phil Jones)

              Okay, more questioning. That puts you in Treason. Care to try for the RPF?

            • Newiga

              RPF?? What kind of cake is that? πŸ˜€

            • Sid (Phil Jones)

              Devil’s food cake of course, although many have noted it’s often a bit fruitcake.

      • big pharma check bonus?

    • Judith Sylvester

      I was 254th. That question, with potential answers: e-meter, f-meter, g-meter, h-meter was the best.

    • i was #311 who got 5/5….

      • SucculentDuck

        not my favorite music, but very good dudes, so to commemorate your score and throw a little shade at our favorite religion, here’s Beautiful Disaster by 311:

        ( hey ze moo! … i sense this is what your band Bomb Diggety will sound like ;P )

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQlSUjqsuo

    • Robert Eckert

      Congratulations! You are the 858th person to get 5 of 5 correct!

      11052 people have done this quiz.

      Read more at http://www.ninemsn.com.au/quizzical/160218-scientology#wkez4XjVTE6QsOg5.99

  • Andrea ‘i-Betty’ Garner

    Marcus Graham is a pastor with an agenda in Jack Irish.

    How did you research your role?

    “I looked at that Going Clear documentary (Scientology and the Prison of Belief ) because I’m so sad for Tom Cruise sometimes. He’s so taken up with all this stuff and I feel like he means well, but he’s sort of deluded. I think that they take advantage of his ego. You watch that doco and you see this sweet guy. So with those intentions, I looked at Tom in terms of drawing Rob Shand, because that’s the kind of paradigm that he’s in.”

    – Actor, Marcus Graham

    http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/drama/marcus-graham-is-a-pastor-with-an-agenda-in-jack-irish-20160217-gmsaz5.html

    • Observer

      Maybe he should ask Cruise punching bag Michael Doven how “sweet” Tom is. Or maybe the niece Tom banished from the family at 14 for making out with a boy.

      • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

        Or the poor Sea Org-er who got screamed at over some damn cookie dough that was right in front of his face.

        • nola, you’re being glib, you don’t know the history of cookie dough…

      • flyonthewall

        or Nazanin

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          So much in her story is horrid. But for whatever reason, the first thing I always think of–with a sneer–is how Tommy Davis was the one to tell Nazanin it was over and to escort her out of Cruise’s house. What, TC’s beans aren’t big enough for him to break up with a woman his own damn self? What a tool.

    • Juicer77

      *gag*

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      Well, they do take advantage of his ego, but it’s that ego that makes him not so sweet.

    • Sid (Phil Jones)

      “Sad for Tom Cruise”?

      I feel sad for all those who entered an abusive cult because they thought Tom was someone who “means well”.

    • Qbird

      TC eyes over time ~ :::dang disqus out of order:::

      • Qbird

        but wait, there’s more!

        • Qbird

          in living color ~ as of 2016

          • Qbird

            one of my favorites… and I must say, I feel no pity for this sycophant. This ACT-TOR ~ Whoosh WoW Zowie. He’s all in. come hell and high water.
            {{{ok, i do feel sorry that he has no time to romp. tsk tsk, poor famous rich guy}}}

            • Saint

              This was a good look for him, Tone 40 notwithstanding. What is this, four faces ago?

    • Ella Raitch

      Not just nice to look at! (and a Perth boy to boot)

  • Fink Jonas

    “and the average, everyday Scientologist has not been heard from”
    They will never hear anything from the “average” everyday scientologist since they are not allowed to SPEAK to anybody regarding scientology, they are behind the Berlin wall, like TC said “you are either in or you are out” while in your freedom of speech is truncated, and you probably risk to be punished for speaking to anybody outside the cult, and secondly it is considered ”verbal tech” and that is prohibited, if anybody comes around trying to know anything from an average scientologist all they will say is read a book is only $20 and you come out of there with a book in your hand or a set of tapes for $3.500, then they scream Ex-ses don’t count don’t believe them but they won’t give you any information either and they never will.

    • vicariousthrill

      Right. The mere fact that “the average, everyday Scientologist” has not participated in dialogue about their “religion” should be an indication that something is off.

  • Tory Christman

    Never forget the 3 main goals of OSA re the Net:
    1) DISTRACT (off of ~anything~ they don’t want known)

    2) DEGRADE.any and ALL activists exposing “C of $” abuses
    Includes “Divide & conquer”–getting the ‘critics’ (whether ex!s,
    Never-ins or earlier critcs, anonymous). ..any way,
    Any how fighting with each other.

    3) Slime the area with junk so no one wants to post there.
    *They did this successfully on ARS*
    _________________Β£_________
    Back when “in” I heard OSA saying to other “real”
    Religions: “You *need* to back us up. If you don’t…..
    These critics will do This to you, next”
    Academics are not the “Opinion leaders” they
    Are worried about. Our COMBO of ex’s, critics & “never ins”
    IS WHAT IS KILLING THEM! Thank you, Tony, for continuing
    To shine a bright light on ALL!! πŸ™‚
    β™‘β™‘β™‘β™‘β™‘ LUV U ALL! β™‘β™‘β™‘β™‘β™‘

    • Juicer77

      Glad you are on the mend, Tory!

    • Newiga

      Hi there, Tory! Glad to see you here!

    • Doc M

      They’re don’t seem to be doing too good a job on those three Tory are they?

  • nottrue

    Is she about to Blow or is she voting for Trump….https://twitter.com/kmboom73/status/699776253189029889

    • Observer

      Joy gets attention with “clothing,” Kirstie gets attention with clumsily cryptic tweets.

    • Newiga

      I misread decisions as donations..

    • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

      Eh, she ain’t blowing anything but hot air.

      • Saint

        Ummmm.

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          Now now, don’t bring Jenna and her horses into this. ; )

      • I belive Hot Air is running in the fifth at Santa Anita.

    • Jimmy3

      Maybe she’s finally going to fix the typo in her name.

    • flyonthewall

      They have her on the Introspection Rundown and she’s trying to send a coded message for help! To the Bunkermobile!

      • Hell, she could stay in the guest room if she needed to hide from the cult for a while. But no lemurs. Those things stink. And she’d have to not hit on Butch constantly, that would just be embarrassing.

    • Sid (Phil Jones)

      She could be talking about her underwear.

      • Doc M

        Thanks for ruining my lunch with that nauseating image. Her underwear I mean.

        • Sid (Phil Jones)

          Was it the Jenny Craig barscotti with cranberries and almonds? Your lunch I mean.

      • Kestrel

        If it’s her underwear, one has to wonder how often the change occurs if it’s worthy of an announcement.

    • So much for taking a break from Twitter.

    • Sherbet

      Don’t you be using our Howdy’s name in vain, missy.

    • Phil McKraken

      @kirstyalley I heartily agree. When will you be changing back into a toad?

  • Ben Franklin

    The biggest mistake some academics make is to assume that Scientology is a religion just like any of the traditionally known religions.

    • flyonthewall

      their biggest mistake and their last mistake. I don’t even know what that means but I heard it in a movie once and I’ve always wanted to say it

  • Religious academics might want to consider switching to being spiritual academics. Or better yet, scientific ones.

  • SucculentDuck

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiF8uSulVc0

    “Each night, the covers were unfolded
    Each night, It’s Susy’s turn to ride
    While Charles, the one they call her brother
    Covers on his eyes, murmurs in the background
    It will be time”
    BΓ–C, Dominance & Submission

  • Science Doc

    Someone with a Ph.D. In religion or the social sciences with an emphasis in religion scholarship is lucky to have a paying job to start with. If they are so unfortunate to base their scholarship on new religious movements the last thing they want is their colleagues to know is that many of these are manipulative cults with theologies of convenience to the cultic leaders. Every university has a few cockroaches. Shine a light on them and they will run under the refrigerator.

    • truth will set u free

      Please show me just who these religious academics you speak of, who defend COS in the year 2016. You will find that anyone worth their PHD in theology wouldn’t touch the subject with a ten foot pole if they were even inclined to find merit with Hubbard’s drivel.

      • Science Doc

        Tony reports on such ocassionaly as in for example today’s post linking to an account of a Hungarian academic. Recently he had another article on a UC Riverside social scientist with an upcoming CNN show looking sympathetically at Sciemtology. You specifically state Ph.D. In Theology. That sounds like a degree from a Divinity School rather than the University analog which would be a Ph.D. In Religion. I could understand how a divinity school would be inoculated against new age religions.

        • truth will set u free

          I do remember that posting but these apologists are taking a position that allows for divergent religious persuasion. Someone who is calling themselves Scientologist has a fundamental right to practice their “religion”,as offensive and destructive as it may be to the world at large.

          • Ben Franklin

            Everyone is free to practice religion of their own choice, the problem is when religion starts to restrict, interfere with, or curtail fundamental human rights. There is a misconception out there that people who criticize Scientology do not want Scientology to exist, all that most critics wish for is for Scientology to abolish those practices that abuse human rights, such as, disconnection and fair game.

            • Sherbet

              That’s no misconception. It’s the truth for some of us critics. While others are more lenient, I, personally, would love for scientology to cease to exist. It’s too damaged and has its roots in lies and greed. So while I agree that everyone should be free to practice or not practice a religion, scientology is not a religion and should go away.

          • Ella Raitch

            People have a right to believe in whatever they want. However, Tony’s point is that new religion academics should not continue to characterise experiences from ex-Scientologists as unreliable because they are ‘apostates’. There is now plenty of corroborating evidence of Scientology’s criminality and coercive behaviour

  • Saint

    Do you know even one (1) long-time (three decades +) scientologist that is doing as well if not better financially than when they first began? I cannot think of one. I’ve been pondering this. It can’t be just the level of donations, for which they are crush-regged. It’s got to be the rewiring. An old family friend was brought to mind recently. When I met them through my family, they were solid financially, owned a nice home in a decent neighborhood in a large city. They are and have been devout. Now elderly, they are working some baseline labor jobs to make ends meet. They moved to a smaller town, with cheaper prices, and live in much different circumstances. Now, I don’t subscribe to the belief that mo money = mo happiness. Or even that you have to live in Fred’s neighborhood to feel content. But the idea that you can work that hard all your life, donate that much, move that far up the bridge, and end off worried about money and care when you are that old, it’s just terrible.

    • Sid (Phil Jones)

      I know a few, but could probably count them on the fingers of one hand. Most, if not broke, are at least worse off than they would have been without Scientology. There is definitely a ‘rewiring’ thing that goes on. It takes a bit of time sometimes for the synapses to straighten out afterwards,,, if they ever do.

      • Saint

        What I struggle with at the moment is seeing this generation of scientologists age, and then instinctively cling to their belief system for comfort (I do think we are wired to have a purpose or a structure for self-comfort, whether that is filled with religion or music or something). As they age, and their bodies start to break down, they want the comfort of what they’ve studied. And there is precious little comfort in the teachings of COS for those who actually are not ready to “drop their meat body” quite yet. They may be telling themselves that it is ok, but their sadness at the passing of others or of their own physical condition is apparent. Very tough, and pitiable.

        • Jimmy3

          That’s up there in amongst the most depressing conments I’ve read on the Bunker.

        • Sid (Phil Jones)

          Excellent point. There is definitely an inertia to it all. And there is a physical wearing down for many of those in the Sea Org. I worry about this with my son.

          • Saint

            I am sorry that you have this worry. I have it as well for my family still in, so you are not alone here, even if being in company is of little comfort.

    • MM

      “Do you know even one (1) long-time (three decades +) scientologist that is doing as well if not better financially than when they first began?”

      I don’t exactly know such a scientologist, but I can name one: David Miscavige.

  • jamie

    http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Traumatic_Abuse_in_Cults.html
    “Cults prey upon idealistic seekers, offering answers to social problems and promising to promote bona fide social change.” This quote made me think about the true value the church gets with its way to happiness and other “social betterment” not just bragging rights and up-stats, (false stats?) but seduction for recruitment, not to recruit the needy (down-stat) that an anti-drug human rights program pretends to help. It’s a promise that there is salvation in joining up if you are a well-to-do idealistic “seeker”. “making the able more able”

  • seriouslyWTF

    OT. Does anyone know who posted the article about Trump’s 911 donation and how he claims he lost hundreds of friends. Edited to add. I can’t find it now and wanted to show it to someone.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    Well, I’m no religious academic, but I do know an Ideal Org when I see one…

    PHOTO CAPTION – “Used to the #Church of #Scientology now just rubble; soon retirement flats”

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BB5DNU7DgcG/

    • Jimmy3

      Well that’ll certainly be a significant upgrade in activity.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      That is a pretty good description of the cult.

  • Cars

    This podcast, posted today, is of an hour long interview with Sharone Stainforth, who, in 1968/69, signed a billion year Sea Org contract at the age of 10 and was one of the original Commodore Messengers aboard the Apollo with LRH. She was one of the children put in the locker and witnessed the 4 – 5 year old girl who was also put in the ship’s chain locker. She also talks about people being overboarded.

    In the last minute or two of the podcast, she has an interesting theory about Miscavige and the reason for his behaviour toward Hubbard in those last years before his death.

    http://www.briantellsstories.com/podcasts/2016/2/17/brian-meetsan-ex-scientologist

    ETA: Keep a box of tissues handy.

    IIRC, there will be a part 2 of Brian’s interview with her.

    For those who are new, this is her blog http://theapolloseries.blogspot.ca

  • flyonthewall
    • Saint

      I love this song. Stop it. πŸ™‚

      • flyonthewall

        if you like that you’re going to hate this

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMo8bBubKo

        • Saint

          Wish I were in better shape. My dancing has devolved to the White Tornado a la Buscemi on SNL. lol

        • Sherbet

          What the heck did you lullaby your kids with, anyway?

          • flyonthewall

            I was gonna respond with 2 Live Crew’s dirty nursery rhymes but I resisted bc my socially acceptable behavior filter is still partially functional if u can believe that

            • Sherbet

              I’ll accept your blatant lie.

            • flyonthewall

              i always tell the truth. Even when I lie

            • Sherbet

              Me, too. Except I’m lying about that.

            • I never tell the truth. I always lie. I’m lying now. Ooooooh . . . . I’ve gone all philosophical-like.

            • Saint

              Kicked out of the dorm on that one. LOL

  • John P. are you watching Billions? It’s pretty awesome.

  • Joe

    Did anyone else see the brand new Scientology commercial where they’re trying to come at the Drug Free World angle?

    • Sherbet

      The one shown during Super Bowl? I didn’t see it, because I have an aversion to technicolor BS and annoying music.

      • Joe

        This one played during the Grammy’s and it was very much like they always do where they start talking about how they’ve helped reduce drug abuse around the world yadda, yadda, yadda and then at the end it does the whole pan out to reveal “Scientology.org”

        I honestly don’t remember if it was the same as the Superbowl ad, but what seemed new (at least to me) is how they were really trying to make it seem like they had done a lot on the anti-drug abuse front.

        • Sherbet

          I didn’t see it, but they never stop patting themselves on the back about narconon, even with pending wrongful death lawsuits.

        • Page 7 of the Truth About Drugs leaflet states that small amounts of drugs act as stimulants and larger amounts act as sedatives. This is dangerous nonsense and clearly, utterly false as a drug cannot be both sedative and stimulant.

          • I was handed that same leaflet in Plymouth (UK) and that struck me too. It’s just incredible ignorance, parotted because Ron once said it was so.

            Also, the supposed street names of drugs (which change on a regular basis) may have been current in parts of the US a decade ago, but having had a word with copper who keeps up on that kind of thing, they are just hilariously wrong.

            Rather less funny is the subtext – their attempt to conflate psychiatric medication and drugs of abuse and present them as having the same deleterious effects. That is creepy, and very dangerous indeed. For so many people this leafletwould provide an excuse to stop taking meds that they really need.

            • Aye, dangerous quackery and nonsense :/ Oddly enough, a drug that does have the quality of changing from stimulant to sedative with increasing dosage is nicotine! “Nicotine is unique in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative with increasing dosages and use” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine

  • flyonthewall

    no i don’t have any sammiches

    • Sherbet

      Check your other pocket.

      • flyonthewall

        got it!

        • Yeah, but don’t you have to hurl on it, then suck it through your proboscis once it liquifies?

  • Bob Crouch

    There are a few things to remember when dealing with academic experts:

    1. ANYBODY can pay an expert to say ANYTHING. A paid expert is a lot like a lawyer. Even assuming that the expert plays it ethically, they are an ADVOCATE for their client. They are to construe a case that supports their client’s best interests. Scn has bought a lot of experts over the years, not just in religious studies but also in journalism.

    2. Similarly to opinion polls, the answer you get from an expert depends a lot on the question. While an expert may not mean to at all, those answers can then be used as an endorsement for something they were never intended to.

    For example: “Professor, does an embittered apostate have credibility problems?” An expert (or anybody with any common sense) would have to answer “yes” to that. What this does NOT answer is whether you are dealing with an apostate who would be willing to shade the truth due to their bitterness, or how significant their bias may be. It also leaves aside (as Tony already suggested) whether multiple “apostates” issue testimony that is mutually confirming. Nevertheless, the “church” can now take this answer, plaster it all over their web sites and claim that NOBODY who was ever in scn can be believed after the fact.

    3. The “church” can now expand the answer that they got (“apostates have credibility problems”) and perform a bait and switch trick. With a little massaging, this statement becomes: “Only non-apostates can speak credibly about the ‘church’.” Or, “only the ‘church’ can truthfully and expertly speak about scientology.”

    A casual observer (or one ill-equipped in critical thinking) will miss this switch. But it’s like saying: “Mary can NOT be believed in what she says about Bob, because she used to be married to him. Therefore, ANYBODY who was never married to Bob can speak credibly about Bob–whether they know Bob or not!

    In all fairness to the academics, they want to protect their field of expertise with as much zeal as the ACLU may protect the rights of the KKK to exist as an organization. It seems to me that the problem does not just lie with the academics but also with what the “church” does with the expert opinions it manages to get out of them.

    There are a few counter-questions that the “church” is unable to answer:

    1. Why are these “embittered apostates” so “embittered?” Did they just wake up that way one morning?

    2. If you claim that critics are “interested” parties who are not objective, how much more does that apply to a “church” which of course wants to promote its agenda and assure its cash flow. So, should both the “apostates” and the “church” be disbelieved as both of them are biased?

    3. Most inquiries (academic studies, a court trial, journalistic research) major in sources that have bias, limited perspective or blind spots. While these phenomena must be accounted for, it does not mean that you can’t come to valid conclusions if your sources are biased–especially when you have access to multiple sources.

    4. Isn’t the claim that only the “church” can be believed when it comes to its activities akin to saying that only Hitler can be believed when writing the history of the Third Reich? Only scientology graduate Charles Manson can be believed when pronouncing judgment over his alleged crimes? Only the NSA can be believed when Snowden–who’s obviously disaffected–runs his mouth?

  • J. Swift

    The glaring and massive “outpoint” here: Where is the Scientologist with a Ph.D. in religious studies, comparative religions, theology, religious philosophy, or any other religious field making a formal apologetical defense of Scientology in the academic journals of religious scholarship?

    Why does the Church of Scientology need to rely upon outsourced non-Scientology religious scholars to defend Scientology as a religion?

    Why can’t Scientology develop and fund its own Ph.D. apologists and religious scholars?

    These Non-Scientology religious scholars do not affirm Scientology — for indeed none of these scholars has ever been persuaded by the merits of Scientology to disavow their faith traditions and publicly embrace and become Scientologists.

    Instead, these outsourced scholars Scientology employs remain firmly in their own faith traditions while largely working to invalidate the testimony of former Scientologists.

    ******
    The Church of Scientology considers all other religions to be R6 implants designed to trap people. Scientology maintains that the absolute “exactly taped” path to truth was discovered and described by L. Ron Hubbard.

    Given Scientology’s view that all other religions are R6 implants, why would any non-Scientology scholar whore themselves to Scientology, a group that considers wog religious scholars to be clueless implanted idiots? If these scholars really knew the depth of the contempt in which Scientology holds them they would not pimp for the Scientology White Devil.

    • Sherbet

      A scholar who is called to speak about the church and who doesn’t look that deeply into scientology and its dogma is no scholar.

    • ze moo

      People, including ‘academics’, will put up with a lot of shit to get a paycheck. In the end, that is all that the ‘research’ generated, a paycheck.

      The huge world of consulting is based on the unstated question, “What do you want the answer to be?” This why I never take any fact finding at face value.

    • As a fake religion the one thing Scientology craves desperately is religious recognition from any where and they’ll take it wherever they can get it.

      • ze moo

        Fake or not. No one cares what a ‘professor of religion’ ever thinks. Now dentists, dentist get all the good surveys and perks that come with them.

        All the sugarless gum they want
        All the toothpaste they want

        Except for that one dentist who either doesn’t answer or is just contrary. He is probably huffing the nitrous oxide as we type.

        • As long as they avoid Sterling Management Systems! As dentists, that is πŸ˜‰

    • Observer

      I think Sylvia Stanard is the closest thing they have to an apologist who isn’t David Miscavige writing poison pen letters under the name of Karin Pouw. She’s not very good at it though.

      refresh

      • ze moo

        There has been a court fight in the Chautauqua area for the last 6 or so months. The foundation that runs the place wants to tear down the old amphitheater and replace it with a new one. A group of members decided to hire a lawyer and fight that. A few days ago a court said the foundation could go ahead and demolish the old place. The lectures and debates at the place have been going on for over 130 years.

      • I keep thinking she’s a character on SNL.

    • Mrs. V.

      Excellent point.

  • mikecrosby

    Funniest damn thing–I’m a “Never-In”, but when I post here I use my real name. Nothing to hide. Evidently, the Co$ followed it up, got my address and has sent me their “Action” magazine. Just came in the mail.

    I’d like to thank Bob Dugan, Tom Cruise and the other whales that provide support for these mass mailings, but I don’t think you’re scientology bullshit is going to convince me to join your reprehensible organization.

    • flyonthewall

      you never took a personality test or anything?

      • mikecrosby

        Never. I’ve posted a number of times on Tony’s blog and a few times on M. Rinder’s blog, but other than that, nothing.

        • flyonthewall

          they just googled mike crosby and got your address? That’s impossible

          • mikecrosby

            Hey Fly, I have no idea how they got it. All I can tell you is I have the magazine

            • mikecrosby

              Whoops, I’m upsidedown.

            • mikecrosby

              It’s the magazine of the cos of washington state.

            • flyonthewall

              see that’s even weirder bc it’s from a specific Org not just a general Sci magazine like Advance or whatever. Their files are so f’d up who knows how that ended up with you but I seriously doubt they tracked you down from commenting online.

              eta – there’s no reason for anyone from Seattle Org to track down a random internet commenter in order to send them a silly magazine

            • mikecrosby

              Thanks Fly. I swear, I’ve never been in, but from all the stuff I’ve read, I’ve become a bit paranoid myself. Like you say, it’s probably just a mix up. I certainly hope so. My hate for them already is visceral without having to deal with them.

            • flyonthewall

              Yeah, it’s not time to sit at the window all night with a gun…yet

            • Yeah. Start slow, sit under a tarp first.

            • moonnfire

              Just write “Return to sender” on it and eventually they will stop sending it or it will just cost them money in postage

            • How did you answer my question before I asked it?

            • flyonthewall

            • Kestrel

              Just one copy of Action magazine and he’s suddenly OTVIII.

            • What is the target market for the magazine and why are you upside down?

            • Observer

              Ups-a-daisy!

            • mikecrosby

              Observer, I “right clicked” to see if I could set my picture right. How did you do it? Thanks.

              BTW, I think I found out how I’m on CoS mailing list. I bought a book via Amazon months ago called “Ethics”. Unfortunately it was so depressing I quickly tossed it in the garbage.

            • Observer

              I saved the pic to my hard drive and flipped it in Photoshop. Once it’s up on Disqus you can delete it but not edit it. I don’t know why it insists on posting some pics upside down.

            • mikecrosby

              Thanks Observer. I see so many creative cool pics and such here at the bunker and I wonder how it all gets done.

            • Robert Eckert

              Posting pics from a phone seems to cause the upside down problem, some glitch with how the phone’s internal notion of which way is “up” gets relayed.

            • Gertrudis

              Do you mean you bought a book put out by Scientology called “Ethics” via Amazon? (Not being a smarty pants here; seriously just trying to get the whole story.)

              If it was a Scientology book, then does this mean Scientology is resorting to selling books on Amazon to try to lure in new victims? That would be so random and desperate of them. Oh, wait …

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              Yeah, if the book order was offered by & fulfilled by, anyone other than Amazon, no telling who that seller really is. Could be the CO$ looking for prospects.

            • Sid (Phil Jones)

              That’s the magazine of the Church of Scientology Mission of Berkeley.

            • Saint

              I don’t mean to be rude or anything, but isn’t that a Queen? Is this an allegory? dot dot dot

            • OOkpik

              His comment was for flyonthewall who was probably on the ceiling at the time.

          • SucculentDuck

            not improbable that they sent one to EVERY mike crosby

            • flyonthewall

              CO CMO INT: “Who is this mikecrosby who comments online sometimes about Scientology?”
              SO peon: “uhhuhh..I don’t know sir”
              CO CMO INT: “uhhuhuuu I don’t know sir *SLAP* You better find out you faggot motherfuck or I will gouge out your eyes and skull fuck you!!!”
              SO peon: “Yes sir. Right away sir!”
              CO CMO INT: “You find that asshole and get him a copy of Action the magazine of the Church of Scientology of Washington State right fucking now! I don’t care if we have to send one of those idiotic magazines to every Mike Crosby in the United States!!!!”

            • SucculentDuck

              fly, your way with words … it’s like i was right there in the room as it happened *shivers*

            • That’s about right! πŸ˜‰

        • Kim O’Brien

          How about Marty’s ? If you posted there ..The Oracle might also be sending you a copy of Marty’s book .

          • mikecrosby

            Yeah, I did post on Marty’s blog after the latest bru ha ha.

          • That’s funny πŸ˜€

          • Observer

            *snicker*

        • Eivol Ekdal

          They probably targeted you because of your business.

    • aegerprimo

      Action magazine? Have not heard of that one. Are you sure it wasn’t Advance?
      ETA: So sorry you are on the mailing list. You will be forever now.

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Now it will never stop. Just hope they don’t get your phone number.

    • Sherbet

      Read it from cover to cover. There will be a quiz.

    • Kim O’Brien

      what the hell man ?? I have been posting with Tony longer than my marriage lasted , i post under my real name , i am snotty as hell about scientology and am always yearning for ” Action”

      i never get ANYTHING ;(

      thanks Obama

      • mikecrosby

        Kim, I’ll send it to you after I’m finished reading.

        • Kim O’Brien

          easy enough to find me LOL …

          ugh . Sorry you got the gem in the mail .

      • Never mind, they never send me anything either :/

        • madame duran

          The extra postage it would take to mail something off to you would break the org’s budget. πŸ˜‰

      • hell, i’ve posted my home addy here and all over online!! HEY CoS!!! Send me some stuff in the mail!!!

        Miss Tia
        571 Robinette Ct
        Akron, OH 44310

    • I applaud thee, sir πŸ˜‰

      • mikecrosby

        Thanks Pete. I guess I should consider it an honor. Actually, it is an honor to be with you wonderful folks.

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      Did they have your name printed on it, or just your address?

      • mikecrosby

        name and address

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          Then I think you are on a CO$ list and it is not just a random fishing excercise ;(

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          Possibly a prank from a friend who knows your “hobby”?

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      They’re either THAT desperate for stats or it’s a subtle “we know who/where you are.”

      • indie8million

        Yeah, they are so hard up for NNCF (New Names to Central Files) that they are starting to steal Tony’s database! After all, Tony probably has more viewers than their NNCF stats for the last 10 years. LOL!

    • OOkpik

      If you get Reply envelopes, send them the story of Xenu. You’ll be off the list in no time. πŸ˜‰

    • Mrs. V.

      This is why I don’t use my legal name.

  • Intergalactic Walrus
  • DexterSka

    You don’t need to listen to exmembers, you can read the policy letters. No wonder religious studies is considered the dodo of the academic community.

  • PickAnotherID

    O/T: Anyone know what’s happening with Reaching for the Tipping Point? I’ve been getting “Server Not Found” errors for several hours now.

    • Kestrel

      Same here.

  • Observer

    Well, well, well, look what “journalist” has a Twitter account which hasn’t been touched since 2012. I guess he can’t continue to crow about being a “muckracking journalist” since he’s whored himself out to an itsy-bitsy cult leader.

    https://twitter.com/gonsojohn

  • beauty for ashes

    So many COS things lately remind me of the movie Beetlejuice. This sculpture which later comes to life reminded me of Joy Villa’s newest Grammy costume. f5

    • salin

      OMG – you nailed what seems to be the inspiration for that dress.

      • beauty for ashes

        *hee hee* IKR? I bet Joy things her art is dangerous too!

    • Great minds . . .

  • Observer

    Just seems appropriate for some reason.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUeXkzUjM

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      wow – long time listening to Parsons!

    • Franklin Adams

      I have my father to thank for my Parsons project addiction. When I was a kid, I was really blown away by the quality of the engineering and production on Dark Side of the Moon (like the recurring heartbeat motif, the vocal samples from EMI employees, and how certain things were done especially on “On the Run”, “Us and Them”, and “Any colour you like”). It was like nothing I’d heard before from that early.

      When pops told me that the guy responsible for all of that had his own band I thought he was bullshitting me, I figured the man would be some reclusive gearhead like Radiohead’s Jonny Greenwood or the dudes from Kraftwerk.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Alan just a kid when he became a lead engineer at Abbey Road and got the hot seat for Dark Side of the Moon! I touched the console they recorded on when I was there this summer. It’s in pieces now, scattered down a hallway like all of the other old gear lying around the place. He really made a name for himself with all of the production wizardry he pulled off for those sessions.

        • Franklin Adams

          He was a kid when he first started working there, 18 years old with a credit on The Beatles “Abbey Road”. He was 23 when he did Dark Side of the Moon. Still a kid, but damned good at his profession.

          I’d love to see that console, pieces or not, legendary piece of musical history there. I do play bass (poorly) but I know I’m never going to see the inside of Abbey Road, unless I’m there doing a business continuity/disaster recovery planning or exercise contract for EMI or something. I have however been inside one of EMI’s plants in Jacksonville, IL when they were still making Vinyl and CDs there. Not quite the same though, I must say.

          It just makes me kind of sigh. When I was 23, I was a Specialist in the Army and had been at my permanent unit for about a year. Definitely nowhere near as cool of a job or result of effort.

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Just checkin’ in to see if Jimmy3 completed OT 3 yet. If anyone will be the first to show us some real magic stuff, it’s J3.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Hey, J3, if you see my patio furniture, would you take a snap? I’m selling it and need a pic for Craigslist. Tks.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Never ask him to show you his magic trick…..ever.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        heh heh No sign of him, eh? Maybe he’s levitating or doing his invisible trick. It’s been hours. He was zipping up the bridge pretty darn fast. What’s happened to Jimmy3?!?

        http://i.imgur.com/fpZursZ.jpg?1

        • Jimmy3

          I am so far exterior, I don’t even know where terior is anymore

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Oh there you are. Had to peek in before bedtime. Was getting worried. You were sounding a little toooo convincing there. Hope you got the furniture in a good light.

            • Jimmy3

              All the light is good light. This is stable datum.

            • Jimmy3

              “Stable datum??? I hardly knowum!!! Ahaha!!! But, seriously…, I haven’t seen Jsssica Jones yet, so let’s just get this over with quick…”

              — Jenna

  • Panopea Abrupta

    For all those academics who like slide:

    “He thieved the sick
    and he raised the debt
    He turn the water into whine
    He walked, the faulter,
    Like the Gadarene swine”.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko8GvPZAnzU&ebc=ANyPxKqLs-HbnrA2_Dw-T0bj-8E6KXMlwt9EjjbtQ8KgeQahqQNs8-7nzxZJ6vjZkbnzb07-_5-D2CCa5BYlKuNgCV4PTz0_-w

  • salin

    Reminder – click the Recommend (just underneath the comments count, and above the dialogue box.)

    In return I share some photos from the past 24 hours of aurora’s around the world.

    Norway (Tromso region)
    http://spaceweathergallery.com/full_image.php?image_name=Christian-Uhlig-Ersfjordbotn-habour_1455718209.jpg&PHPSESSID=o2iihsikiumje764r6u4n6bqh0

    Eruption of Aurora in Finland
    http://spaceweathergallery.com/full_image.php?image_name=Asko-Aikkila-HR16021628_1455709578.jpg

    At the other end of the world in New Zealand
    http://spaceweathergallery.com/full_image.php?image_name=Taichi-Nakamura-traceoflight_16Feb20161stwave_1455705099.jpg

    In the US – Minnesota
    http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=122874&PHPSESSID=dcankap887q0mr8i5jhji5rvi2

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      spectacular

  • MM

    Thanks nottrue for briefly mentioning this below…

    Tonight a new Scn documentary premiered on German TV called Scientology – Die neue Offensive. It’s mostly about recent Scn activities in the southern part of Germany, with additional short detours to Basel (Ideal Org shenanigans as documented on Wilfried Handl’s blog), Tel Aviv (trying to visit Mr Finkelstein in prison to ask him about his role in the covert purchase of the Stuttgart Ideal Org-to-be), and Brussels (court trial).

    Depending on your country, you may or may not be able to watch the docu online under this link: http://www.swrmediathek.de/player.htm?show=e8b119d0-d587-11e5-9d9e-0026b975f2e6
    It will be available online for a period of three months (until May 17).

    F5 for screenshot from the Brussels segment:

    • Kestrel

      Familiar face standing in the back.

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        One sitting down too.

    • Doc M

      Are the spectators in the gallery required to wear black also???

      Just kidding.

    • Doc M

      Faggotte? lol

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      It’s Travolta’s birthday today, BTW.

      Coincidentally, I was reading an interview with Carly Simon yesterday: She revealed to PEOPLE that she had a six-month affair with John Travolta. “He was more wonderful to me than any of them,” she says.

      I already knew she had a closeted husband for decades, but this nearly made me fall off my chair. I’ve never heard this before. You know any details about this? Was he trying to recruit her or something?

      • Frodis73

        Wow! I’m floored by this too.

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          IKR, those auditing files of his must be quite a read! LOL

      • I bet he thinks that song is about him.

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          Since he expects to be able to control MEST, he probably does!

          • daisy

            I wish he had never gotten involve in COS and could live an honest life whatever choose to be The only place it needed to be hid on is the backwards syndicate known as Scientology NO ON E CARES JOHN BE WHO YOU ARE AND WE WILL LOVE YOU ANYWAY.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              If he came out now, and said he was in the CO$ because he couldn’t accept his sexuality and the CO$ had promised to turn him straight, then after realizing the tech wasn’t working, he had been blackmailed into staying with info from his “confidential” audit confessions. If he proclaimed that he now knows that LRH/CO$ is nothing but harmful lies and he wanted nothing more to do with them, he would be more popular than he has ever been. I don’t see that happening however.

            • Doc M

              The man is too scared to ever leave the church. And that is a shame, because I think everyone would welcome him and no one would care about his sexuality.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              His bisexuality (if true) is about the only thing that I wouldn’t think is creepy about him. Srsly

            • Doc M

              Anyone spouting the Scientology lines is creepy by definition but all those ex’s have said that basically he was a really good sweet guy.

              Scientology has fucked him up, like so many others.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              Not to mention that WISE cosmetic surgeon that the clam celebrities seem to be sharing. They are almost becoming more ridiculed for the bad facial procedures as they are for Xenu!

            • Doc M

              Yea, I know. there are so many reasons why cosmetic surgery is a bad thing and not just the botched jobs.
              and WISE equals Scientology…no matter what they say.

      • daisy

        I believe this I always thought he might be bi sexual. Probably preferring men.

        • Doc M

          The good thing about being bi is that it doubles your odds of meeting someone.

      • Doc M

        In the 70’s his girlfriend, Diana Hyland died of Breast cancer which reportedly really devastated him. He was a good looking guy and by all accounts, a really sweet guy. The Kool-Aid runs it’s tentacles very deeply.

        Carly seems to be pretty open about her sex life when she was young, but when you think abut it, who really cares. Not that it’s bad, it’s just that she is entitled to her own personal life.

        • Intergalactic Walrus

          It just seems like an odd coupling to me. Looking at the caliber of men Carly Simon had relationships with – James Taylor, Warren Beatty, Cat Stevens, Jack Nicholson, Mick Jagger, Terrence Malick, Kris Kristofferson, etc. It’s like the old game of “which one of these objects does not quite belong”. I don’t see Travolta as being in the same league with these guys, intellectually speaking or talent-wise.

          Also it seems often the ladies Travolta had “relationships” with, were mothers with young sons, Hyland included. Simon even mentioned that Travolta was around at a time when her son was having problems. And last year the tabloids were reporting that Travolta was trying to be a father figure to James Gandolfini’s son. IDK why exactly, but Travolta gives me the creeps.

          • Frodis73

            I agree about the creepy part…he just gives off a vibe…and it’s not a good one.

            • Intergalactic Walrus

              And he gets creepier every year. Just when I think he’s at maximum creepiness, he outdoes himself!

      • first I heard, too

  • FredEX2 ~~
    On the PI stalking you are covering,
    It is vital to go right to the window and get a head shot of facial features of the PI and post.
    Also, the full License tag.
    Do it every time they hover outside your residence.
    We cannot identify and expose CULT PIs without these shots.
    Please do and share, many of the Private Investigators are known and exposed with close up head shot.
    Thanks dear !

  • Doc M

    Some nice zappa singing about “Cosmic Debris”

    which is what the church is full of:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx4ZJ1cwI0

    • Liberated

      The important question is——Are you paid in full ??? ( Joe’s Garage 1980 ).

  • Doc M

    Tax the FUCK out of the churches!

    — Frank Zappa

    My best advice to
    anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him
    or her as far away from a church as you can.

    — Frank Zappa

    Scientology, how
    about that? You hold on to the tin cans and then this guy asks you a
    bunch of questions, and if you pay enough money you get to join the
    master race. How’s that for a religion?

    — Frank Zappa, to a concert audience at the Rockpile, Toronto, May 1969

    If you wind up with a
    boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your
    teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit,
    then YOU DESERVE IT

    — Frank Zappa, The Real Frank Zappa Book

    • jazzlover

      LOL. Intelligent, in practice. But Zappa can hardly be seen as an expert in raising mentally healthy children. He fucked ’em up with their names alone πŸ˜‰

      • Frodis73

        Wha? Dweezil and Moon Unit are perfectly acceptable and respectable names these days. Very dignified.
        πŸ˜‰

        • jazzlover

          You’ve forgotten Ahmet and Diva. LOL

          • Frodis73

            Yeah, i couldn’t remember and was too lazy to look it up and i knew you’d get the jist.

            • jazzlover

              So I don’t need to ask Doc (because he’s a pain in the ass), do you know the extent of Zappa’s experience with scientology? In other words, how did he know it was “off the hizzle”?

            • Doc M

              Because he was very aware of things going on not just in his world, but in the entire world. His testimony at the senate hearings to label albums are really brilliant. They’re worth watching on you-tube. A very sharp and intelligent man and a hige loss to the world.

              Now go back to your mama.

            • jazzlover

              I get that he was aware. Just wondering how he became aware. These things don’t just happen by osmosis, you know πŸ˜‰

            • Doc M

              Well it sure as hell wasn’t from reading a guide to happiness book. Intelligence can be learned, but many are born with it.

            • jazzlover

              So, the fact that scientology might not be the best idea came to him in a dream? πŸ˜‰ Direct and to the point is my motto. Were their musicians in his band who tried it? Sorta like Garson with Bowie?

            • Doc M

              No, he must have know people in the musical world who where involved, but

              Scientology, how
              about that? You hold on to the tin cans and then this guy asks you a
              bunch of questions, and if you pay enough money you get to join the
              master race. How’s that for a religion?

              — Frank Zappa, to a concert audience at the Rockpile, Toronto, May 1969

              This is an incredible and concise summary of everything we write back and forth about in the bunker. Just a beautifully perfect summary,

        • Doc M

          The kids are very proud of their names and their family. When Dweezil started grade school the school insisted that the Zappa’s change his name and Dweezil threw a fit not to.

          To have names like theirs and to get through life very productively without caring about a name shows some pretty significant intelligence.

          On the other hand, Jazzlover’s nickname growing up was: “Stinky” and it obviously took a toll.

          • jazzlover

            roflmao. Are you Frank’s cousin or something?

            • Doc M

              You know, when you spend decades listening to an admiring an artist, you get to know some of the personal stuff, from interviews etc.

              Just like you know about Miles kicking Coltrane out due to his heroin habit, or Miles getting arrested in the racial incident or Miles hearing Herbie play at his house during the audition etc etc

            • jazzlover

              How bout this one? Herbie passing Columbia’s 30th Street Studios as Miles was recording Jack Johnson. Herbie walks in, groceries in hand, and Miles points at him and just says “play that”. It was a farfisa organ and Herbie had never seen one before. You can hear the lines he plays pretty prominently somewhere in “Right Off”.

            • Doc M

              Or Miles getting BJ from Cannonball.

              Okay, just joking on that one, it was really Nat

            • jazzlover

              There was a rumor about Bill Evans and Miles, but we’ll leave that to the imagination πŸ˜‰

          • Frodis73

            Yeah, I remember that story now that you say it. My name is spelled a bit odd and I had an incident fighting about it grade school w admin, so I can relate. I actually dig his kids, they are pretty unique people…i wish Frank was my dad.

      • Doc M

        No, his kids are all pretty emotionally healthy and persuing their own things. If you hear an interview with any of them, they bright, articulate and pretty well adjusted.

        Jazz, you really need to get into Zappa, really get into him (as you’re a music lover). He’s up there with the best!

        • jazzlover

          I know there was some off the rails stuff involving Ahmet at one time.

          I’ll give you my address so you can gift me some discs πŸ˜‰

          • Doc M

            I’d be happy to burn some disks and I’ll go further to say that he is one of the most important composers of the 20th century. Symphonic orchestra’s world wide still rent the scores from the family trust and perform his work.

            • jazzlover

              I do not doubt you. I appreciate the offer. Been bingeing on Miles lately. That big box has everything one really needs to survive an Apocalypse πŸ™‚

            • Frodis73

              I agree, Zappa is one that will live on forever in music history.

          • Cedilla

            What is your favorite “need to hear music/piece?”

            • jazzlover

              Anything? Or Zappa?

        • 5 Feet Long and Luminous

          Adding to the chorus here: Jazz needs Zappa in his life. Make it happen, Doc!

          And yeah, the kids are alright.

        • ReallyMGM

          I thought it was great that the Sunset Strip groupies (Pamela des Barre) were among the children’s babysitters!

          • Doc M

            She was apparently very devoted to Gail and Frank and the kids.
            I think people don’t realize it, but Zappa was pretty conservative and had little use for the alternative scene of the 60’s. By all acounts his life was only about music and art. He really was anti-drug which was a major force behind the culture. She and Frank’s relationship was supposedly always platonic.

            • ReallyMGM

              From all I have read from various sources, he stuck up for the groupies, treated them with respect, and they always had a place to call home when things were bad. His wife must have been a damned SAINT! The more I learn about Zappa(and family)the more I respect him.
              Miss Pamela’s books were very kind to the Zappa family and all they did for her “squad” of groupies.

            • ReallyMGM

              Also, Miss Pamela was/is Godmother to Gram Parson’s daughter, Polly….all grown up now! The rock word comes full circle.

    • Intergalactic Walrus
    • seriouslyWTF

      And… Watchout where the huskies go and don’t you eat that yellow snow

    • Cedilla

      All of the Presidential contenders of the U.S. of A. should be asked, “Is it not time for all of the religions of the U.S. of A. tax exemption be revoked?”.

      • Doc M

        Since the republican candidates relies on the religious right and especially Cruz and Carson are bible thumping pretty hard, it will never happen. On the democrat site , Clinton and Sanders would never even chance it, though religion is not an issue.

        But in a perfect world, they really should. The Catholic churches wealth is incredible.

        Did you know that at least in California, the church and their individual dioceses contribute no money to running of the catholic schools. Not a penny. All money is raised by tuition and bake sales/other fund raisers. Yet one solid gold candelabra from the Vatican vaults could probably pay the tuition for all the kids in SF alone for years.

        No so different than Scientology.

  • Zebulun Stock

    Im a never-in but an avid Scientology watcher. Are there any stats on how many new Staff and Sea Org have been signed up from with in the United States? With the internet a few clicks away for most American’s, I can’t imagine the number is that great. If you google Scientology, just from the search results, the average person would be able to deduce this is an organization i probably shouldn’t associate with. I know that there are alot of recruits coming in from Non English speaking countries where internet access is less wide spread.

    I keep waiting for the collapse, which is coming sooner or later. A company built around selling a mystery can’t stay in business for long when the mystery is out. Is there going to be a tipping point where one event will force enough people to leave all at once and the church wont have enough people to operate? Will the church start paying a living wage for the staff in the orgs just to try and make it last a bit longer? What the hell happens if DM has a heart attack or gets in a car accident? Is there anyone that would even want to or even be able to take over this train wreck.

    Lets be honest, Scientology is based upon lies. But many religions are. Im not trying to debate whether Scientology is a religion or not. But as a cause or movement or whatever you want to label it,there was a chance for it to be long lasting. If someone sensible instead of DM had taken power when L. Ron died and toned down the space opera stuff and gotten rid of disconnection, Scientology may have stood a chance. Instead one man seen as a God by his followers was followed by a power and money obsessed man with a middle school education. Instead of trying to reform for good, he got rid of any of the good stuff, made the bad stuff worse and drove or forced most people away.

    Right or wrong, imagine the organization that Scientology would be if all of the people expelled wouldn’t have been.

    • Frodis73

      About those stats on how many new staff and SO members there are. I know cos has those numbers (and they are very low) but that is not something they would want the world knowing. It would be great if somebody that knows that stuff blows and could give us some numbers.
      As for that collapse, we are all waiting. I can’t believe it’s lasted this long. As for what DM will have to do to keep things running, I have no clue. They are at the point now where they don’t have enough staff to keep the orgs running. We get reports all the time that some are closed, open very few hours and empty with one or two staff members. Unfortunately it’s just a waiting game and we speculate everyday about what will happen and when. The only thing we agree on is that it’s long over due to end their reign of terror.

    • EmmaDaoust

      “Instead of trying to reform for good, he got rid of any of the good
      stuff, made the bad stuff worse and drove or forced most people away.”
      As Jon Atack has pointed out, there was no “good stuff”.

  • I wonder what those 4 billions will be used for when IRS and DOJ will shred this IAS scam to pieces.
    Education, I hope.

    • Jimmy3

      Clay. Lots and lots of Ron-damned clay.

    • Doc M

      Considering how much the government spends, 4 billion is a small drop in the bucket, but it will help.

  • Frodis73

    So, watching nightline over here. I guess some audio tape was released today of Kanye West ranting. On it he said he was 50% more influential than Stanley Kubrik, Picasso, Paul the Apostle, Pablo Escobar and some others. He even took credit for Taylor Swift’s accomplishments.
    WTF? Lmao. I seriously do not understand him or people like him. I just cannot fathom anybody thinking they are so freaking important…especially on that level. I know self confidence is important and all, but this is just nuts. I have a hunch he and LRH would get along well in their delusions of grandeur. He needs a wake up call.

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      Reminds me of this tweet after the CO$ ran that Grammy commercial πŸ™‚

      https://twitter.com/MarsyMarsss/status/699476570423971840

      • Frodis73

        Lol, yikes.

    • jazzlover

      I think the bigger issue is that in his search for self-importance, he’d compare himself to Pablo Escobar. LOL

      ETA: We might as well start calling him Kanye Kardashian. I was really hoping they’d name their last child ‘South’.

      • Frodis73

        Yeah, that stood out to me too and I wondered if maybe he meant somebody else and it came out as Pablo…with that nut job, who knows though.

        • jazzlover

          Dude’s unhinged. At least he had the good sense to put his foot down and refuse to appear on that ridiculous TV circus the K’s have going.

      • Doc M

        Don’t you sleep? It’s 1:23AM

        It’s 10:23 here, but I’m doing homework with breaks to check on posts.

        Btw, Jarrett is doing a solo show in SF and I’m gonna get tickets. I really like his live solo shows, he just goes off and you never know where he’s going to take you.

        Had similar reactions with Cecil Taylor in the 70’s

        • jazzlover

          Don’t cough or snap a picture. He will hurt you πŸ˜‰ Saw him with Jack and Gary back in 1994 at Carnegie. They were phenomenal.

          Low blood sugar. My life.

          • Doc M

            I think 6 or 8 Reeses Peanut Butter Cups, washed down with a Liter of Coca Cola should do the trick πŸ˜‰

            Seriously, how about a tespoon of honey, it metabolizes very slowly and steadily.

            • jazzlover

              You need a quick hit with low blood glucose. The problem is (and even doctors have little clue about this) that when the cells lack energy, one can literally feel like eating tons of carbs. It’s a binge and then take some insulin to counteract all the extra carbs. Recovery time is usually 30 minutes or so. I’m used to it. It doesn’t happen frequently, but it sometimes happens without warning. Anybody that believes diabetes is “by the numbers” and predictable doesn’t understand all the factors that affect blood glucose levels.

            • Doc M

              Jazz, you’re describing the great American diet and Carbs. And I do understand it. That’s why I suggested Honey to slowly and steadily increase your glucose to a normal range. That should also help to regulate your cortisol levels which I’m sure are fluctuating. I’m don’t know what types of Insulin you’re taking but I have a pretty good idea and that last shot should then cover you till morning. Forgive me for playing doc, but it happens automatically.

              The fact is you know your body better than anybody and everybody, including all doctors.

              I in no way believe that type 1 is by the numbers or the same for everybody. You’re physiology is changing from second to second and minute to minute, and your physiology and cell biochemistry is totally unique…as is everybodys.

            • jazzlover

              Slow and steady is good. The regimen is: simple carbs to raise blood sugar immediately, then more complex carbs to back that up and prevent another crash. That’s why slow only wouldn’t quite work to solve the problem fast enough. I appreciate the advice. What happened to the theory that physiology changes every 7 years?

            • Doc M

              I think you mean your body is a new body every 7 years due to cell reproduction. Your physiology is changing constantly which is why tightly controlling blood sugar is so important and so difficult. But you can only do the best you can.

              With that, I’m burned out and will hit the bed.

            • Baby

              Omg I feel your pain.. It’s hard to get others to understand that even having an Orange ..or an apple will through your blood level off..
              If I want an Apple I have to have protein with it.. Like a piece of cheese is good. It’s work to keep stable.

            • jazzlover

              I had no idea you were dealing with bg issues too, baby. I’ve had diabetes since I was 10, so at this point it’s old hat (not student hat!).

            • Baby

              What I’m dealing with is Hypoglycemia without diabetes jazz.. I have dealing with mine since 20’s .

            • jazzlover

              I hear ya. I know it can be difficult. Diabetes is hypo- and hyperglycemia all rolled into one, so I get it from both sides.

            • Baby

              Poor baby.. that’s a bitch..sorry you’ve had it since you were 10.. I know you said that you got used to it..but BLEH

            • jazzlover

              Gotta play the cards you’re dealt, Baby. What other choice is there? I just put my head down, forge ahead and do the best I can.

          • Baby

            Oh jazz we have something in common.. When I am on a roll.. I just give myself permission to go carb crazy.. and Man do I pay..We have been having so much company so I let myself live a little.. ugh..

            So the other night pizza.. and Ice Cream Pie.. blah, blah.. and the next day lasagna .. followed with screwdrivers ( OJ) I just go into a carb stupor.. I am a carb addict ie pie, bread, potatoes etc..

            The only way I feel good is when I’m on the zone diet program. Zone bars are perfect to keep my blood level stable.. and the 40-30=40 ratio..

            “The size and thickness of the palm is used to measure protein while two big fists measures favorable carbohydrates and one fist unfavorable carbohydrates”

            a balance of Protein, carbs and fat.. It is the only way I can feel good.. sigh..

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_diet
            And I don’t count the carbs for weight loss ( although I should) I read the labels because it is the only way I can keep my Low blood sugar in check. ( A carb hangover is worse than an alcohol hangover to me)
            Anyone who has had the 5 hr. Glucose test knows what I’m talking about..

            • jazzlover

              If I carb overload and don’t take insulin quickly enough, I feel like crap for several hours. You’re right, a carb hangover is the worst. Blood sugar high usually means I’m as thirsty as hell and peeing like crazy.

            • Baby

              I know.. and I’m sick of it. People don’t understand. It really takes hard work to stay ..” In the zone..” Cause I always have to think..

              ” Is this ( fill in blank) chips, ice cream etc. worth feeling like crap? ugh

            • jazzlover

              The answer to all of them should be “no”, but somehow it always ends up being “yes”. Funny how that happens πŸ™‚ We can usually convince ourselves with yet another “what the heck”. LOL

        • Dave Reams

          Chick Corea coudda been a contender until he got a Ronbotomy : (

          • Doc M

            Nice reference!
            I wonder what Chick might of achieved without the Kool-Aid affecting him.
            Considering how deep he’s in, he still produced a massive amount of good work.
            We’ll never know.

            • Dave Reams

              Some of his earliest piano work was really quite good! I never appreciated Return to forever even before I knew about Scientology

            • Doc M

              It might be hard to listen to “Return” in 2016 as it very much was of it’s time. I supposed it can be directly linked to Miles as so many others of that time do i.e. Mahavishnu, Tony Williams Lifetime etc.

              Anyway you look at it, Chick is good and has an impressive amount of work.

              Honestly, I’m sorry he’s involved with the church, but I won’t stop listening to his work as I like so much of it. It’s a personal choice that people here in the bunker have to make on their own.

            • Dave Reams

              Ah Mahavishnu! Another band almost destroyed by Scientology. Scientologist basist Rick Laird gave up music altogether. What a fantastic band! It was a real shame when Jan Hammer also gave up music and went into prop comedy with a big electric dork around his neck (Frank Zappa)

            • Doc M

              At that time Mclaughlin was involved with Sri Chinmoy. Cult, some say yes others no,

              He mentioned him a lot and did a spiritual gesture to him at the end of each show.

              It was a killer band though!

    • Liberated

      Not too full of himself—huh???

      • jazzlover

        Well, at least he didn’t say he was 50% less crazy than Hitler πŸ˜‰

        • Liberated

          Now, he’s beggin’ people for money, my heart’s breaking for the poor jerk.

          • jazzlover

            Yeah, I know. How exactly does one get 50+ million bucks in debt? It’s not like he invested with Madoff πŸ˜‰

    • Mockingbird

      He is reportedly a bona fide narcissist. I don’t know him personally and a real mental health professional would be required to get a lot of information before saying this. As a layman I am less an authority and not held to the same standards.

      Kanye West sadly has behaved erratically and may need serious professional help. Even that may not be enough to improve his situation. It’s sad to see highly deluded people. At times it seems a failing of their character but as Scientology has taught me behavior and influence aren’t always black and white.

  • Liberated

    Katie Holmes was on late late show, she looks so pretty and so happy. Blowing the ” Cult ” seems to do wonders for a person’s career and their spirits. Whadda’ know? I think she made the cult wrong–oh no!

    • Intergalactic Walrus

      When someone leaves the CO$ they kinda remind me of a dog/cat who has been adopted out of a shelter. Once out, and acclimated to their newfound freedom, they start to flourish and are so full of new life that you almost have to do a doubletake to recognize them. We’ve seen this several times with celebrities. Katie, Jason Beghe, Nicole Kidman, etc. all going gangbusters since leaving.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    Nancy Cartwright posted a Facebook video of her experiencing Virtual Reality, apparently for the first time. Nothing really happens but I notice that she is wearing an OT bracelet. Hmm… If LRH’s tech is working correctly and her OT abilities are for real, then why does she even need the VR gear? Hehe

    Thought I would share this special #tuesdaytreat for #technologytuesday! #samsunggearvr #samsung #virtualreality #technology #whoawhoaPosted by Nancy Cartwright on Tuesday, February 16, 2016

    • Baby

      She is such a Drama Queen..ugh Wait.. Tony told me that I brought the Drama..I hope not like that Nut case.

      Edit..FUCKIN NUT CASE

      • Cedilla

        But, you’re lovable.

        • Baby

          Oh Ced.. I love sitting in the smoking section with you..

  • Mockingbird

    I feel that today’s post and many of the recent ones have really made the case quite well that needs to be made. Ron Hubbard was a deeply troubled boy who dreamed of ruling men and seducing women. He tried to achieve his dreams by combining hypnosis, loaded language and occult practices with rhetoric and psychology to make his own cult.

    Long before the first page of Dianetics was written Hubbard plotted and schemed, planned and dreamed. He fantasized about unlimited power and wealth as a perfect man who was revered as a god, even above God, by an army of zealots and fanatics who would kill or die for him. He took that idea from his occult studies. Crowley, the OAHSPE and other occult sources provided many of the ideas and methods he used and plagiarized all through his life.

    He never found or used ANY beneficial methods. Not in Dianetics, not in Scientology, not ever. He was a pathological liar and utterly lacking in humility and compassion for others. As a layman I can say he was a malignant narcissist and be confident in that. He abused and exploited people through lies and fallacies covertly.

    The Scientologist cult still under David Miscavige is abusive and criminal. The evidence is overwhelming. I feel Tony Ortega has made it completely clear and plain to see with his blog. With accounts from so many sources and so many perspectives he created a whole that is great. Between the organizational analysis from Jeffrey Augustine to the history and undue influence dissected expertly by Jon Atack to the whistleblowing by Karen de la Carriere and of course the stories by Tony Ortega himself the case is made.

    Obviously I recommend supplemental materials for greater understanding, but for many purposes this body of work is more than adequate, it’s actually excellent. It provides more than enough evidence to show the true nature of Scientology and Hubbard. And now Miscavige and his cult.

    I personally feel as if a great weight has been lifted. When I left Scientology two years ago I went on a nearly maddening and mind shattering journey. For many who are in for decades discovering Hubbard was not an enlightened messiah with spiritual wisdom but instead a cruel conman with nothing but lies and their life was a lie, as were all their beliefs and values, is an extremely traumatic and life changing experience.

    Then after a few months of examining the evidence against Hubbard and Scientology for hundreds of hours I knew a much larger job needed to be undertaken. I knew hundreds of more hours of work had to be put in and may have underestimated the immensity of the task. I felt an obligation to discover and reveal a sufficient amount of information on Scientology to lay out the essential parts. After two years of continuing the journey I feel confident I don’t need to dissect and expose Scientology. The job has been fulfilled with the Underground Bunker.

    It’s a tremendous relief. I don’t have to study and research as if it’s a full-time job and urgent mission anymore. Hubbard’s influence will never ruin humanity. And it doesn’t rule over me either. The responsibility of informing people about this is not mine or unfulfilled.

    I and other ex Scientologists can relax to a degree and take on Scientology at our own pace and rest assured the relevant essential information is available and being given to critics and ex Scientologists, and even some Scientologists as well.

    • 0tessa

      Well said. You touched a good point with ‘…can relax … and rest assured …’. Cannot be overestimated imo.

      • Mockingbird

        Thanks. I wish every ex Scientologist could be relieved at some point after leaving Scientology.

    • Ella Raitch

      What a wonderful accomplishment Mockingbird. So pleased for you.

      • Mockingbird

        Thank you. I feel lots of people who leave cults have a personal need to be at peace with the reality of their newly discovered situation and adequately informed about it. It often is not a state that ex members never achieve.

    • vicariousthrill

      You’ve added considerably to this effort. I’m sorry you suffered so. Your comments, I’m sure, will help others survive that darkness.

      • Mockingbird

        Thank you. There are lots of people to help, but they can come to the Bunker for good information.

  • Intergalactic Walrus

    Anyone ever heard of this book? Is it pro CO$?
    “Scientology for the Millions…Free yourself of emotional problems use Scientology the amazing system that unites science and the occult?”
    (refresh)

    • seriouslyWTF

      I found this in the following doc.

      Local bookstores and newsstands carrying paperback books in the Souther California area have a 156 page paperback by WALTER BRADDESON titled “Scientology For The Millions,” published by Universal-Award House, Inc., 235 East 45th Street, New York, New York 10017; which discusses article on Scientology described it as “a growing cult that reaches dangerously into the mind.

      http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-242.html

      • OOkpik

        seriouslyWTF… Good find. Thanks.

  • Alex De Valera

    There are no apostates in Scientology because Scientology is a “science” a technology of the spirit related to nuclear physics and electronics and knowledge of the interaction on MEST and the Thetan. Scientology is not a religion because religion is based on faith and Scientologists do not believe, they KNOW, they have the unwavering certitude that Scientology works. There are no apostates in the mindless land of L. Ron as there are no apostates in the ranks of those who fled the Soviet Union in Stalin’s time, but those who fled then and spoke of the horrors behind the Iron Curtain were despised by intellectuals like Jean Paul Sartre in Western Europe and were labelled as “agents of the CIA” who were “narrow minded”, “petit bourgeois” and missed the greatness of the communist revolution. L Ron never called Scientology a religion, he said “Scientology is not a religion” he said it was a science of knowing how to know and he never asked anyone to “believe” anything, he said “what is true for you is true for you” and asked you to use Scientology in real life, observe the end phenomena of each process and see for your self how it worked. The problem is that it was all a Truman show.

    • seriouslyWTF

      Hi Alex. Great post. I have not seen you on here before. Welcome!

  • Cedilla

    6:00 A.M. A wonderful morning.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN8parxJtkc

    • seriouslyWTF

      Thanks for posting that Cedilla. Classic.

      • Cedilla

        ‘Tis a good morning, hey.

  • seriouslyWTF
    • salin

      Thank you for linking, another good morning read!

    • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

      Thanks seriously, I’m two Jonny-posts behind right now. I really need to catch up today. πŸ™‚

  • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

    Morning Bunker. I have coffee and tea going. ; )

    • Kestrel

      Good morning!

      • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

        Morning Kestrel, how are you this fine Thursday?

        • Kestrel

          Splendid. And you?

          • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

            Lovely, thank you. Getting everyone moving around here. πŸ™‚

    • SarahDB

      Tea! Thanks Nola! πŸ˜ƒ

      • NOLAGirl (Stephanie)

        I didn’t forget you love. ❀

        • SarahDB

          😘❣