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Jon Atack: What it’s like for the Scientologist who gives up the dream of being superhuman

Jon_AtackJon Atack is the author of A Piece of Blue Sky, one of the very best books on L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. He has a new edition of the book for sale, and for more than a year on Saturdays he helped us sift through the legends, myths, and contested facts about Scientology that tend to get hashed and rehashed in books, articles, and especially on the Internet. He was kind enough to send us a new post.

Jon has previously talked about how long it can take a former Scientologist to recover after the years of indoctrination laid in during auditing. But why does it take so much time? In this piece, Atack suggests that a quicker recovery is possible — but only if a former church member can see clearly how L. Ron Hubbard’s ideas were so empty to begin with. Take it away, Jon.

JON: I loathe the thought that recovery is inevitably arduous and takes years. Some people recover from Scientology very quickly. This is because they have the courage, the support, and the necessary tools. Just because some have struggled for years — even decades — is no reason to believe that there is any pattern or a template, either. Take heart, have courage, find support and understand the thinking necessary to escape the “processing” and “indoctrination” that Hubbard created, in a failed attempt to heal his own constant physical and mental illness.

Let’s insert one of those Hubbard ideas that is actually true, at this point: “In what can a person become entrapped? Basically and foremost, he can become entrapped in ideas … Fixation occurs only in the presence of one way communication.” (Dianetics 55!, in Trapped). And Scientology is nothing more nor less than a trap made of ideas. A one way communication from Hubbard to the entrapped and fixated believer.

One of the lies of Scientology is the idea of a “white-taped route” that everyone must follow. A route that has extended with every year — even now, Miscavige is extending the time taken on each level. By now there are hundreds of steps, which take years to follow (and lead up the garden path) but in 1950, Hubbard boasted that anyone who was not brain-damaged could achieve the ultimate, final and eventual state of “Clear” within hundreds, even just tens, of hours.

To cite Let’s sell these people A Piece of Blue Sky (every point annotated from the Hubbard original, in my text, qv):

Dianetics was supposed to “Clear” people of irrational behavior. A “Clear,” according to the book, would have no compulsions, repressions, or psychosomatic ills. A “Clear” would have full control of his imagination, and a near perfect memory. With Dianetic counseling, IQ would “soar” by as much as “50 points,” and the Clear would be “phenomenally intelligent.” Dianetics would even rescue a broken marriage.

It was claimed that through Dianetics the individual would be freed of psychoses and neuroses. Amongst the “psychosomatic” conditions Dianetics claimed to cure were asthma, poor eyesight, color blindness, hearing deficiencies, stuttering, allergies, sinusitis, arthritis, high blood pressure, coronary trouble, dermatitis, ulcers, migraine, conjunctivitis, morning sickness, alcoholism and the common cold. Even tuberculosis would be alleviated. Dianetics would also have “a marked effect upon the extension of life.” A Clear could do a computation which a “normal would do in half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds.”

Hubbard claimed to have examined and treated 273 people [not one of whom has ever come forward] and, through this research, found the “single and sole source of aberration.” The book claimed that Dianetics was effective on anyone, who had not had “a large portion of his brain removed,” or been “born with a grossly malformed nervous structure.” Better yet, Dianetics could be practiced straight from the book with no training. Therapy would take anything from 30 to 1,200 hours, by which time the person would be Clear and thus free of all irrationality, and every psychosomatic ailment.

From a single process that was guaranteed to achieve full health (with an impervious immune system) and high IQ (with a perfect memory) Hubbard poured forth hundreds of new procedures; because it didn’t work and the claims were false. And, once Clear had at last been fixed — in 1965, and then again in the late 1970s — and found wanting for any of the earlier promises, that ultimate, final and eventual state extended level by level into the future (because, heck, your body thetans weren’t Clear, and even after they were — on OT III — there were still reasons, and expensive ones at that, why you weren’t superhuman).

Hubbard managed to keep the final state of his Bridge “at cause over physical matter, energy, space and time” (as he defined OT VIII, in about 1970) from release until after his death. And it too proved to be a pipe dream. More the brig to total captivity than the bridge to total freedom.

All of this rather conditions the recovering Scientologist to believe that there is a long and very winding road ahead, but it is not true. Again, because Dianetics dwells obsessively upon the past — a notion challenged by Hubbard in Self-Analysis (what you put your attention on, you get, after all) — recovering Scientologists believe that they will have to arduously unpick their experiences. But the Scientology engrams — and they are the closest thing to engrams you will ever find, as no memories are actually recorded during unconsciousness — those engrams are susceptible to erasure not simply in chains but in great swathes, once the pins that hold them fast are loosed. There is no need to re-experience — to abreact — the humiliation and enslavement of Scientology. Rather, it is necessary to simply pull out those pins. And the pins are the implants — the beliefs, the slogans and the supposed ‘axioms’ of Scientology.

I have so often heard the idea that Hubbard lured us in with a few truths so that he could ensnare us. Those “truths” are few indeed, and largely irrelevant — because they are taken from popular rather than arcane knowledge. The “cycle of action” for instance. It is a good idea to finish what you start (which would include bridges to total freedom, something Hubbard never came close to finishing), but elevating this to esoteric marvel is a nonsense. We all know that chaos will result, otherwise. And redefining the word “cycle” does not help anyone’s understanding. And Hubbard admitted, in The Phoenix Lectures, that the “cycle of action” had been around for millennia.

Jeff Hawkins talks about his own sundering from the enchantment in his excellent Counterfeit Dreams:

Gwennie was amazed to hear from me, and doubly amazed that I was out of the Sea Org and out of Scientology. She said, “I’m coming down, I’m leaving right now.” Six hours later, she was at my door.

She stayed all weekend, and we spent hours talking. We walked down State Street all the way to the beach, and I told her all about what I had been through at the Int Base. It was the first time I had really unloaded to anyone. Our progress down the street was slow, because every couple of feet she’d stop and look at me and say “No way!” or “That’s nuts!”

It was an amazing experience for me. I had lived at that Base for years. That was “daily life.” It was “normal.” I was the one who was crazy, criminal, SP. To hear the reaction of someone outside that bubble was priceless. That’s nuts! And I was free to say, yes, yes it is.

I went from laughing to crying to laughing. Gwennie would hug me when I cried, and laugh with me when I laughed, and we somehow made it through the weekend like that. I told her everything, and I felt unburdened, liberated, free.

Hubbard told us what we longed to hear. There is not only an end to suffering, as the Buddha promised, we are also superhuman. Indeed, we are gods with magical powers. We will never die, but better yet, we will triumph over every distress, can float around the whole universe at will and blow up planets simply by turning our egos in their direction.

Palpable poppycock with not an iota of proof. If any single Scientologist had achieved even the slightest superhuman power there is no way that I would still be standing, over three decades from my first published complaint. Nor would the Guardian’s Office have needed to steal a ton of government documents, if they could have simply ‘exteriorized’ and noted down the content of every file cabinet.

Hubbard told us what we longed to hear, and we listened, mesmerised. As I have often enough said, Scientology is a set of hypnotic procedures that bring about euphoria and addiction. In over 60 years, not one superhuman has emerged (even Ingo Swan, bless his cotton socks, claimed that his “abilities” were developed before Scientology). Let alone that there are no Clears, and the promises of the release grades are farcical: Scientologists certainly cannot communicate freely on any subject, nor make problems vanish at source. And the same is true for the “end phenomena” of every other grade. Unless of course you believe that what is true for you is true (as all schizophrenics know).

It is a dream, and because it is a dream, all you have to do is wake up. This does not mean that the trauma and humiliation caused by membership will dissipate overnight, but it does mean that the belief system that holds the trauma in place can be fairly rapidly undone. The trance can be ended. And recovery will happen naturally and progressively from that point onward. There may be bad days, but overall, life will improve.

Of course it is disappointing to realize that you are not saving the world. That can be a huge let down. Many recovering Scientologists experience dejection and demotivation, even chronic fatigue disorder when they leave. One day you are a superhuman, whose wishes are shifting the millennia of human aberration, the next you are a regular Joe, and it is hard to find enough enthusiasm to leave your bed. This is where courage and support help, then this too shall pass (and, yes, Hubbard repeated that story, too — about the busy king whose wise men had to reduce the wisdom of the world to a single sentence).

The courage part is understanding that you’ve been living in a delusion, and that once it dissipates and reality (the true reality, not the agreement with Hubbard) sets in, you will actually be able to have fun again. Remember fun? Take hold of that fun. List the stuff you like to do that Scientology has prevented you from doing. And do it. You can even joke and degrade a little, if you like, because no one is going to tell on you, and there is no ethics department to police your thoughts out here in the real world.

Take hold too of the benefits of Scientology. Many people (though not me) say that military experience toughened them up and made them able to face hardship. One recovering Scientologist asked me to write about the “can do” attitude of the former Sea Org staffer, explaining that although he had suffered trauma, he was grateful for this capacity to point himself at a task and complete it.

A great deal of the benefit of Scientology is “negative gain” — not a consequence of the indoctrination or the processing (to use Hubbard’s revealing words, once more), but of the experience of Scientology. The camaraderie and the capacity to endure — very much like the military. But I’m not recommending warfare as a therapy any more than I’m recommending Scientology.

In my experience, there is a single point where Scientology grabs a person and a single point where it releases them. The first point is a peak experience, usually of a hypnotic nature, early on, that will never be repeated. Pretty much like a drug high. People keep taking drugs in the hope that they will achieve that brief wonder of the first rush. With Scientology, it is usually a TR-0 high or an early auditing high — the full perceptual experience of what appears to be a past life, for instance (but read Elizabeth Loftus or Richard Ofshe on false memories, and think about how unquestionably real dreams seem while you are dreaming).

In truth, all meditators have felt that TR-0 bliss moment. It has nothing to do with Scientology. And any decent hypnotist can induce a joy-filled false memory. Watch Derren Brown convert a life-long atheist in a matter of minutes, in Faith and Fear, for instance.

The moment of release is not necessarily a moment of euphoria, but it is a moment of wonder. The recovering Scientologist realizes that some principle long held is bogus. My favourite example, in all these years, is the friend who piped up that she had used scented laundry conditioner for the first time in her life. We hadn’t spoken about the Sea Org Hygiene Hat, so she wasn’t following my lead (which is the nature of Scientology “cognitions” — never evaluate for the preclear, indeed!). After a life time of warning people that all perfumes are the snare of the devil (sorry, “psychiatry”), she realized that this Hubbard paranoid phobia, is, well, a paranoid phobia. Her belief in the Great OT was gone.

There is no need to systematically unearth the notions that hold the Scientology trance in place. They will present themselves from then on, and truth will indeed, as Hubbard said, blow the lies away. And, you will likely be a tad embarrassed, if you have managed to retain the slightest humour or humility after your processing.

Let me make a final note about Aaron Beck’s cognitive therapy. I’m generally not a fan of therapy. Scientology rather put me off. But the ideas of some of the therapists are rather helpful. Beck realized that we self-instruct. So, if I knock a glass of water off the table, I might say to myself, “I’m always doing that! I’m so stupid!” And the chances are that I always will do it and be stupid.

If I tell myself I’m clumsy, then I will fulfill my own expectation. Scientology does exactly this. Once you believe it, you really will have engrams, and implants, and ARC breaks, and missed withholds. You will “natter” if you think someone has guessed at your bad behaviour. You will believe in “third parties,” though it is patently obvious that most conflicts start head on, without anyone in the background (Hubbard was paranoid, so always heard that the third party putting him down — if anyone laughed in the room, he knew they were laughing at him).

Aaron T. Beck’s Love is Never Enough is a good start to unlearning Scientology’s confrontational communication style and finding out how to deal with the world in a more insightful way.

Scientology instils constant self-criticism. Constant evaluation of your own state. “Am I doing it right?” The main trick of the hypnotist is introversion, and Hubbard built a system that made him right and us wrong. So, be aware of those fleeting almost subliminal self instructions and life will gradually, or even rapidly, improve. Good hunting!

[We’ve repeated this message from yesterday evening for the morning folks who might have missed it.]

 
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Donations? Fuck yeah!

As we told you recently, Google stopped serving our ad which we were using to keep the lights on here at the Underground Bunker. We made dozens of appeals, trying to figure out what Google objected to, and we were only told that it had to do with “adult content.” Since we never post adult content in our stories, we could only conclude that it had something to do with the language we use in posts and that gets used in our comments.

In order to appease Google, we asked commenters to tone down their use of curse words and we put in a filter in our Disqus commenting system. We know that cramped your style, and we appreciate your putting up with our experiment.

And now we say, fuck Google! We’ve taken off the language filter, and we’ve put back our Paypal donate button, something we haven’t had for more than a year. This time, however, we’ve added the option of donating a small amount in monthly installments — some of you had asked us about scheduled payments, and we think they might be a good idea. (It’s also still possible to make a one-time donation to bunkerfund@tonyortega.org)

As in the past, webmaster and attorney Scott Pilutik will be handling all donations, and for journalistic reasons we won’t know (and don’t want to know) who’s giving money. We’re dedicated to the hard news reporting on Scientology here, and we don’t want to compromise that. Also, as always, it will cost nothing to read our stories. Donate or not, we want you to keep coming back for more of our great community. Fucking A!

 
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Bonus photos from our tipsters

Look, someone has a new Super Power certificate!

 
Fu_Mei_Mathers

 
Scientologists are using social media more than ever. Drop us a line if you spot them posting images to Instagram or Facebook!

 
——————–

OUR COUNTDOWNS

22 days until Alex Gibney’s film Going Clear: Scientology & the Prison of Belief opens at the Sundance Film Festival at 2:30 pm on Sunday, January 25 in Park City, Utah

9 days until our special Underground Bunker announcement at noon, January 12

 
Posted by Tony Ortega on January 3, 2015 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…

BLOGGING DIANETICS (We read Scientology’s founding text) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25

UP THE BRIDGE (Claire Headley and Bruce Hines train us as Scientologists) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48

GETTING OUR ETHICS IN (Jefferson Hawkins explains Scientology’s system of justice) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

SCIENTOLOGY MYTHBUSTING (Historian Jon Atack discusses key Scientology concepts) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49

PZ Myers reads L. Ron Hubbard’s “A History of Man” | Scientology’s Master Spies | Scientology’s Private Dancer
The Underground Bunker’s Official Theme Song | The Underground Bunker FAQ

 

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    • Stacy

      Morning Dodo. Hope you’re having a good day.

      • Morning, Stacy. Doing peachy. Hope you too.

        • Stacy

          Definitely. I’m a morning person. Im generally quite happy when I start my day. 😀

          • Are you a psychologist, Stacy?

            • Stacy

              No Dodo. I’m a criminologist. My grad degrees are in criminology. I have bachelor’s in both psychology and sociology.

            • These are very impressive credentials. Took me a minute to reply to you, still in awe.
              Are you working in those fields?

            • Stacy

              Lol, not that impressive, especially since I’m ABD on my PhD and likely to remain so for a while (no money to go back).

              I teach at a small private college. I love it.

            • Still impressed. Happy that you love what you do.

            • Stacy

              Thanks Dodo. I’m happy I love what I do too. I made the mistake when I was younger of turning my passion (horses) into a job, and I all but ruined it. The trick is to find a job that you love, instead of taking something you love and turning it into a job. I wish I’d learned that earlier in life.

            • Eileen

              Hope you will push on through the ABD. It is very tempting to stop at that point and although the dissertation is daunting it is an amazing learning experience! The trick is to start to assemble your committee, esp the committee chair. He/she make all the difference and can help you shape your research. The cost is not great, it is really carving out the research and writing time. Go for it! You’ll. Be glad and since you like teaching the phD will be enormously important down the road. We have junior professors who teach so that they can link to faculty mentors to encourage and support. If I did it (at 50 yo) so can you!

    • Morning Dodo! 🙂

    • flexible

      Oh I love this guy Dodo.. especially the burning ember of his stogy.

    • stillgrace2

      Captain Howdy? Is that you?

  • So great to hear from you again, Jon!

    I loathe the thought that recovery is inevitably arduous and takes years. Some people recover from
    Scientology very quickly. This is because they have the courage, the support, and the necessary tools.

    Indeed.

  • Stacy

    I just love Atack Saturdays 😀

    Any trolls that show up today better watch out! No more filter!

    • Hehe.

      • Stacy

        Not that attacking trolls is my style, but hey, if I wanted to, now I can! 😉

      • Richard Grant

        Just remember, Dodo, you’re expected to provide some ADULT content now. Time to up your game, bro.

    • Eivol Ekdal

      Just a reminder, the lawyers are still watching. Because the laws vary from country to country, I would still choose a conservative baseline for replies and try to avoid anything that resembles the Westboro Baptist Church. I am not saying you or anyone is like that. I am in the UK, so I was thinking how even calling someone a fag can be seen an arrestable offence.
      So, let’s be careful out there people.

      • Richard Grant

        Point well taken, Eivol. I think the Bunker has always been a civilized place, though. Colorful at times, yes, and occasionally contentious, but there’s always been a level of respect and decorum in the commenting community here that is notably lacking in most forums.

      • Stacy

        Lol, I was mostly joking. I’m nice to the trolls. I beg them to blow from the Sea Org.

      • chukicita

        I remember when Keith Henson made a comment on a.r.s. about a “Tom Cruise missile.”

      • Kim O’Brien

        fuck that

    • Peter

      Does that mean, Stacy, that if anyone disagrees with a single statement of Jon’s, that s/he must be a troll?

      • Eclipse-girl

        I can’t speak for Stacy, only myself.

        It depends on how the person writes about their disagreement with Jon. Using Ad Hominem attacks, or other logical fallacies will be crushed by others here.

        You can have different opinions but you can’t argue about factual information.

        • Peter

          Isn’t “factual information” something to be disagreed with? Who say’s one can’t argue about “factual” information? (Btw, I have never attacked Jon in any way. I admire and respect his intellect.) That said, my own experiences, in many instances, are very much at odds with Jon’s thoughts. And I have nevertheless been avidly attacked for those different experiences on this blog. I go back a long way and left much earlier than most on the list. But I maintain those things which I experienced are NOT the result of being “hypnotized”, which Jon repeats over and over and over. Not all of us were held in thrall to Hubbard, believing every word and thought he espoused. Not everything he said was “hypnotic”. Not everything he said or did was “untrue”. I can’t speak for Jon’s experience, but I found that TRs definitely work. They’ve made quite a difference in my own professional life. I taught them, as well, and my students had huge life changes, according to them. So I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as the saying goes.

          • Eclipse-girl

            factual information such as “1 + 1 = 2 in every base other than base 2” can not be argued.

            I have not studied hypnotism.
            Jon Atack has. Have you?

            It is well documented that Ron studied hypnotism and was quite good at it.
            That is a fact.

            I did go through the beginning scientology classes that Claire Headley and Tony O wrote about. They are mind numbing, repetitive, and non sensical.
            Enduring those TRs is the first step in stopping a person from thinking for themselves.

            You are not the first, nor will you be the last who believes that they received something beneficial from the introductory classes in scientology.
            That is your opinion.

            You do not want to accept Jon’s claims that the TRs are hypnotic.
            I think Jon has defended that claim admirably.
            I accept that as a statement of fact.

            • Peter

              Studied and practiced hypnotism for some years. I’ve not seen much in the way of 1+1=2 in these discussions. What I have seen are a lot of opinions from folks who have never done anything in scn. (Let me state here, categorically, that I in no way support what has become the current “czerch” nor what it has done over the past 35-40 years. Nor do I support oh so many of Hubbard’s actions. Many of my still dear friends were very close to Hubbard and I’ve known of his drug taking and lying and unethical actions for a very long time.)

              You did not EXPERIENCE the TRs classes nor how they were taught in the 60s and 70s. You, instead, read ABOUT and formed your opinion from that. Thus it is only your opinions you speak.

              For you it might be an opinion. For me it is facts and observations and life changes.

              In truth, I no longer know what they are in recent years. In the years in which I studied and applied them, they were definitely not “hypnotic”. I continued…to this day…to think for myself. I left almost 40 years ago seeing the direction things were taking. That could only have been done by thinking for myself.

              That you accept Jon’s claim and his defense of it admirably, does not change the fact of my DIRECT experience. Your acceptance is your opinion as you have no direct experience.

              I can agree with much that Jon has said in his many lucid posts. One some things I do not agree since my experience and his don’t match in those areas. No big deal and no war intended. Just keeping the record straight as well as I can.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Identify the non sequitur.
        Is it ….
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
        ?

      • stillgrace2

        You make the joke, yes? (F5)

        • Peter

          Hmmm…second response from someone for whom it was not intended. 🙂

          • stillgrace2

            Hey, don’t you know posting is a free-for-all. If you want to talk to someone privately, then email them!

      • Stacy

        Wow, one snarky comment, made because the language filter has been lifted and because I was in a silly mood this morning. If you actually paid attention to what I post, you’d know that I don’t attack trolls, nor do I invalidate what ANYONE says. Ever. Get over yourself.

        • Peter

          Actually, you have attacked me before and invalidated my posts several months ago. That was why I responded with my tongue in cheek question. So get over yourself. LOL

  • J. Swift

    IMO, there is no finer use of money than to support The Underground Bunker. Please donate to this extremely important website and worthwhile cause that makes such a tremendous difference.

    Karen and I thank the Proprietor for all he does everyday to truly help.

    • Subscribed. Just don’t tell Tony.

      • Eivol Ekdal

        Now you can get the tattoo …

        • Eivol Ekdal

          or..

          • Nah.

            • Eivol Ekdal

              The next time we had a troll calling The Bunker a cult, I was going to tell them it is my tattoo.

            • Haha! I like that idea.

          • If the tattoo goes on our arses then when It comes time to do mine you’d better have ALOT of ink.

            • You made me laugh twice now! Thanks!

            • I’m trying to make you laugh 47X because that is the magical number isn’t it? My short friend named Dave told me it was and he wouldn’t lie to me,
              He’s an ecclesiastical leader and they NEVER lie.

          • richelieu jr

            Too Close to OT, EE!

          • indie8million

            I like this one. Reminds me of an older gentleman I used to know in the church. 83 years old and went to every event, just to dance with the young gals. I forget his name now. But he was a hoot and he was from Texas.
            He had a card made up with his name, and in the top corner he put, “Operating Texan”. Bwahahaha! I loved it!
            But when he went on the ship, THEY didn’t love it. They insisted that he stop giving out his cards. Felt it was a degrade. (facepalm)
            So I guess we could change that up a little for Tony. Your symbol could also stand for “Operating Tony.” 😀

      • Rita Gregory

        Me too. Shhhhhh.

    • Richard Grant

      I’d upvote this a few more times if I could. I hope J. Swift’s comment stays at the top of the “Best” list all day.

      There’s a huge amount of angst and uncertainty over the fate of journalism, especially investigative journalism, in the internet era. The Underground Bunker might be seen as a kind of experiment: Can a serious, professional, investigative journalist devote his/her time and resources to covering a single “beat” on a daily basis? Can this kind of venture attract a readership? Can it possibly generate enough revenue through reader support to sustain itself? Or does it need to rely on advertising, and if so, how much will that impact the quality and user-experience of the site?

      If enough of us chip in to ensure Tony’s freedom to keep doing what he does, the results may have a significant ripple effect, emboldening other journalists to risk similar ventures. But even if that doesn’t happen, we can guarantee that Scientology remains fixed in an unblinking spotlight, and that we will always have this great site one click away.

      • Tsunetomo

        Excellent point.

      • Stacy

        ” Can a serious, professional, investigative journalist devote his/her time and resources to covering a single “beat” on a daily basis? Can this kind of venture attract a readership?”

        I’ve been reading Tony’s blogs daily for more than 6 months now and I’m not bored yet. If anything, I’m more excited each morning, knowing there will be a new article about CoS for me to read.

        Supporting the Bunker through donations is definitely worthwhile, whether we get to swear or not. This is the best site on the Internet.

        • joan nieman

          Great insight and writing Jon. Thank you for a most enjoyable morning. I love to read and digest what you have to share.

      • chukicita

        I like the participatory nature of the Bunker. A strong, serious, professional and ethical (in the wog sense of the word) editor is underscored by comments and information from a diverse group with a variety of experiences with the subject matter; yet presented in a way that is easy to slip into understanding for someone not as familiar with it.

        • Richard Grant

          That’s a great point, chukicita. The Bunker comment section has evolved into a valuable resource in its own right. There’s a synergy between Tony’s posts, the guest posts (and posters), the commenting community, and the daily or frequent readers (who sometimes become commenters) that seems to make the place accessible to new folks wandering in. There’s also the fact that questions or introductions posted in the comment section usually get answered almost immediately.

          The downside is that the answer may come from Dodo 😉

          Seriously, I think part of the secret here is the simplicity of the site. It’s a Web 1.0 type of thing: a blog entry and a comment section. No navigation required, so vast assortment of topics to choose among, no hierarchy of commenters designated by stars and titles. Everybody’s reading the same stuff at the same time and reacting to it, and then to others’ reactions. Basically, the architecture of the site just stays out of the way, so there’s nothing to think about but the conversation itself.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            “Basically, the architecture of the site just stays out of the way, so there’s nothing to think about but the conversation itself.”

            So true, and it makes this site so interactive.
            It almost feels like we are all sitting down to a meal (Tony’s post), so then the big extended family can let all our thoughts, grievances, disagreements, complements and love permeate the comments.

            Heck, sometimes we even talk about the actual topic of Scientology!

            I think that architecture is the basis of the ‘tightness’ of this community.

            • Richard Grant

              And what a family.

          • i-Betty

            Yes. A lovely way to sum up our Bunker.

          • indie8million

            “What you said”, Richard. +1

            But quit pickin’ on Dodo, will ya? 😉

        • Hierophant2

          You might even say it has a cult following… 🙂

    • richelieu jr

      I have very few sheckles to doante, but you can bet I am to keep this beacon of free speech and finger in the eye of the Stalinstic Mafioso Shell-Game known as Scientology shining.

      You can bet it was one of Miscavige’s goons, or an Indie with hurt feelings who called in Google to try and muzzle us.

      They have learned nothing from anonymous and their other attempts to stop the net.

      I’ve chipped in my bit so–

      Miscavige and Scientology, as well as you Google cowards, you can collectively suck my massive dick. And I hope you choke to death on it.

      Happy New Year!

    • richelieu jr

      I couldn’t agree more!

      For less money than one poor fool going up one stepin the OTs, we can have fre seech, a safe place to discuss and argue out issues, to plan and facilitate the end of the criminal organizationa nd fraudeknown as Scientology, and the bebfit of a unique journalistic voice givng us near-daily scoops,a nd more than daily entertainment and information.

      And for those of us who take pleasure in the near-miraculous elasticity of the English language and its near-unique ability to punctuate, colour, and mark rhythm with carefully placed expletives, I invite you to join me in the conclusion that as regards Google and their reflexive reaction to serve as Scientology’s water-carriers, “The fucking fuck is fucked!”

      If all the wonderful points aren’t enough for you considett eh BUnker as I do- The jar where you have to put a quarter every time you use a bad word (and let’s be clear- there are no ‘bad words’ (nor are they just ‘”MU”s). Those who would ocntrol manguage are truly trying to control thought, and Hubbard’s bizarro-world dictionary is a primary example.

  • 1subgenius

    “Scientology is a set of hypnotic procedures…”

    Until this is recognized, Scientology and other mind-control cults will continue to enslave.

    • Rita Gregory

      The next time someone asks me what Scientology is, I’m starting my reply with that statement.

      • 1subgenius

        Non-consensual hypnosis should be illegal. I think it may be in parts of the world.
        And Scientology is particularly evil because it is an automated system of non-consensual hypnosis.
        People are hypnotized without knowing it to hypnotize others without their knowledge.
        Truly an evil.
        I’ve gone back and forth on what legally can be done, and I think a law against surreptitious hypnotism would work.

        • Gabbyone

          I totally agree that non-consensual hypnosis should be illegal. That is the part of my dental debacle that was most harmful to me. I had no way of knowing what my scientology dentists and their staff members were doing that to me. Do no harm? Are you kidding me? As I’ve said before, the most distressing part is that this dentist is now a professor, so he is teaching all of these insidious technics to his $tudents.

          • 1subgenius

            They have a right to be informed and you’re the one who can do it.

          • villagedianne

            Did the Dentist use these techniques as part of his work, or was it more in the line of selling unneeded procedures?

            • Gabbyone

              Both.

        • einsteinonthebeach

          Perhaps there is a way to establish that abreaction talk-therapy (auditing) requires a state license, since it is a form of psychoanalysis.

          • 1subgenius

            Although I agree, it’s a little too gray.

        • villagedianne

          Non-consensual hypnosis is very wrong. Your are getting sleepy. You are getting very sleepy.

          • 1subgenius

            Darn, you’re goooooooooooooooooooo…………………………ddddddddddddd………………..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • 0tessa

    Great article, Jon! Hope many people will benefit from it.
    Especially the self-criticism and introversion part is very important imo.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    What a lovely Saturday morning!
    Blueberry pancakes will be ready in a while, folks
    – just as soon as my son and heir wakes up for some sun and air.

    You go off for the day and come back to a Tourettes conference on a two-post day.

    LilDavy gets to have 47 channels and nothing on.
    Four-letter words get reinstated.
    Can Espi be far behind?

    And Jon unpins Lord Hubris of Tilden’s daft nonsense with a few deft strokes.
    Can trolls be far behind?

    A couple of thoughts from yesterday:

    $cientology? It’s coming apart at the screams.
    and the Foulwinds is coming apart at the beams.

    In DM’s Christmas Stalking, Samantha Claws gave him a new sex toy – a microscope.

    Is DM El Wretch’s Prodigal Scum?

    When The Turd of Tilden asked Sarge to make him an e-meter that would kill him, he explained that he couldn’t get rid of all his clusters of body thetans. Was the best whine kept for the last?

  • Graham

    “A Clear could do a computation which a “normal” would do in half an hour, in ten or fifteen seconds.”

    Hopefully I’m not ‘normal’; the label’s so often used judgementally to create difference between what’s ‘normal’ and what’s not (eg being gay, being creative, wearing the wrong kind of clothes or marching to any other different drum). However I’d go with being labelled ‘normal’ over being labelled a ‘wog’ any day.

    Us normals living here in the normal world may well take half an hour to do a calculation, but guess what- so would a ‘Clear’; because there’s no such thing as a motherfucking Clear! A ‘normal’ with a calculator could beat a fake Clear any day of the week (And especially on Thursdays running up to 2pm).

    • pluvo

      Hubbard was instigating an us vs them with a an old master race concept.

  • aquaclara

    Jon, you have such a clear way of expressing things. Thank you for kicking off the new year here. For any people who are on the fence, it is possible to reclaim your life. As so many exes here can attest.

    Thanks, Jon.

    • chukicita

      Aqua, this made me remember something. I might have said it here before. In the 20-plus years I’ve been Scn-watching, I’ve seen dozens and dozens of Scientologists become active critics, and many more become more quiet critics.

      But never, ever have I seen a critic become a Scientologist.

      • Richard Grant

        Maybe some unemployed veteran of the “ex-gay” counseling movement can make this happen.

      • aquaclara

        Absolutely the truth, Chukicita. No commenters or critics, nor journalists, nor many exes bouncing back, either.

        Wise words.

  • Sunny

    I love these types of articles and they really hit home for me.
    But I still have a question: How do you release yourself from Scientology when a part of your life is still in it?
    I guess I am out in the sense that Scn means nothing to me. All of that is in the past.
    But I still wait for my mom to wake up and get out…

    • Stacy

      Sunny, I think that’s what makes it so hard and traumatizing for some. They have loved ones still trapped in CoS. Like you said, it’s a piece of you that’s still inside.

      I guess you just do your best to recover and make a good life for yourself. That way when your mom leaves (and she will) you’ll be in the best shape possible to help her through her trauma.

      Hang in there Sunny. We’re all here for you.

      • Sunny

        Thank you. Yes, we have built our life and are ready and she knows she can just show up anytime day or night. She knows we can financially support her. She knows our phone numbers. She knows how to reach us (and does not). She knows where we live, our exact address. We are ready if she ever wakes up, which she also knows. I have gotten tons of messages in to her but she is a die-hard Sea Org member, and has no interest in ever leaving.
        I can say all that, because I don’t even bother to send her messages anymore. There are ways to leak things in, but I don’t even bother anymore because it is clear she has ZERO interest in getting out.
        She has disconnected from all of her children and grandchildren. She talks to her grandparents, who only humor her with short responses. They have, on their own, essentially disconnected from her.
        And therefore, she is, officially, completely disconnected.
        From reality.
        Ok that was a little funny!

        • chukicita

          All you can be is ready. Ready to accept her with unconditional love when her world comes crashing down. It’s hard to not judge someone who has put you through the emotional wringer.

          I hope you reconsider and keep sending her messages. Just because she hasn’t said or done anything to make you think so, doesn’t mean she has zero interest in getting out.

          • Sunny

            Thank you. That is a good point.
            Emotional wringer is an understatement. She abandoned my brother and I when she joined the Sea Org, all while hiding us from our dad. So we were left to raise ourselves on the streets of LA from a very young age. She knows I forgive her for all that happened.
            But on another side, she has known no other life than the Sea Org since 1975. I think, if nothing else, it would be way to huge and scary of a leap for her to leave.

            • Eclipse-girl

              After reading through this, I can add anything to what the others have said.
              Know that we care and want to be there for you.
              (((HUGS)))

            • Richard Grant

              You’re so understanding, Sunny. I worry about what life will be like for people like your mom, and so many others who have known nothing but the inside of the bubble for decades, if the COS falls down in a heap at some time in the future — maybe the near future.

            • Sunny

              Yes, it was tough when I first got out (being born in Scn, raised in Sea Org for first 32 years of my life). I did not know how to use a computer, I had no idea what the internet was, no idea how to apply for a job, no credit history and $500.00 in cash. That was how I started.
              Now I am married with 2 kids, own a business and our house (as in, no mortgage) and we are doing better than great.
              Sea Org and Scn lurkers: There is a way, for all of you, and people who can and will help you. Don’t be scared. Just jump. Get out while you can!!!

            • villagedianne

              They say what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. That seems to apply to ex Sea Org who are able to integrate into the outside world. They definitely have a work ethic and are often successful. I think the same may apply to former Jehovah’s Witnesses, who also come from an environment of dedicating a huge amount of time and work to their Church.

              In Jeff Hawkins’ first job outside of the Sea Org, his boss had to tell him to take his scheduled breaks.

            • chukicita

              Hang in there, Sunny. I hope someday your mom has the chance to get to know you – and you get to know her, too. {hugs}

            • Roger Larsson

              Some keep con men as much more dearer than loving and caring arms. When the con is exposed the ones standing three feet behind the scam will stand three feet ahead of it.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I miss your,… er,…philosophical posts, Roger.
              You need to come by more often.

            • Roger Larsson

              Why not give away love and introduce trust?

            • villagedianne

              I am so sorry about your Mother. It sounds like you yourself have quite a story to tell.

            • Sunny

              Yes, some of it has been told, though more has been remembered. What I wrote is here (forgive the terrible grammar).

              http://paulsrabbit.com

              Scroll down the page, it is “An orphan with Parents” (the editors title for the story)

            • villagedianne

              Yes your “Bea Kiddo” persona is very familiar to me from my earlier days of Scientology-watching before Tony Ortega’s daily blogging. You were one of the early few online ex’es, when there was far more risk of serious retaliation from the Church. I’m going to take another look at your story as it has been awhile since I first read it.

              On the same page as you linked to, I also recommend “The ESMB Posts” to anyone interested in recollections from some of Hubbard’s earliest followers. Some of these people were the real developers of Tech that Hubbard took full credit for.

            • Sunny

              Yes I had some PI’s following me for a bit in the beginning, but no more. They have other more interesting bait to chase!

            • aquaclara

              I am going back to reread your story. It made a deep impression on me, before I knew this was you, so I am glad I can now say thank you. You have accomplished and overcome so much after all those years in. I just wish your mom knew what a terrific, brave, smart and funny daughter she has.

              Disconnection is not a harsh enough word to convey the awfulness of losing a mom, a grand mom, a sister, or a daughter. For your kids, I hope they see what a brave person you are, and read your story, too.

              Thanks, Sunny. Adding your mom to my prayers, in hopes that she will wake up soon.

            • Ella Raitch

              Just realised who you are from ESMB Sunny. Good to see you posting at the Bunker – always learned a lot from your posts at ESMB.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              And I hate to say it but you don’t have to be there should she decide or be forced to leave the, Sea Org. I understand that it would be difficult for her. But I bet it wasn’t easy for you and your brother living off the streets. Of course you understand the mindset of someone who has been in, better than anybody. What you experienced was neglect a form of abuse. I wonder is it always better to take the road to forgiving these people just because they gave birth to you? My Grandfather was emotionally abusive to me, my sister, my mother but mostly my Granfmother. A month before he died he tried to make peace with me. I went through the motions but really wanted to tell him what I thought of him. Sure enough he died soon after.( I was 17). Hundreds of people showed up and the ones he abused most seemed to be the most upset. I learned later that missing the abuser, is quite common. Seems sick to me as he was an evil man.

            • richelieu jr

              I hear you, Todd. Sometimes sick and harmful people are best excied like tumours, sad as it is…

            • Sunny

              THIS too… Yes this has crossed my mind many times too. At one point about a year ago I did decide to disconnect from her and it was the best I felt for a long time. Since then I have not tried to be in touch with her at all. Maybe that is for the best.
              Mick mentioned to me in a message “did you ever just think that maybe she is just an asshole”. It makes the most sense. She has never been there for us, ever. Including when my brothers son died of cancer at the age of 6 (which I was sadly unable to be there because I was SP declared and my brother and I were not yet talking). But my mom could have been there, because I was nowhere around, and he was not SP declared. She could have been there and was not.
              I keep coming back to this.
              Thank you, Todd.

            • richelieu jr

              So so sorry to hear about this @disqus_5QSsnnsoKl:disqus .

              But just because we are born to someone, or under the same roof, doesn’t oblige us to take care of them forever. It is noble to wish to, but life is short, and there are good people who care and do god things who need help too. Good people are born to assholes every minute.

              I wish you and your family the best. Only you know what you have to do.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Sunny I read your story today and it sounded so hauntingly familiar to Astra and Zoe Woodcraft’s story. The neglect mixed with losing your childhood so early is not the way to grow up. I had to use the clam dictionary several times, however, I figured it out. Deep inside a group that attracts or turns people into Sociopaths you had feelings and a heart!
              Thankfully you’ve made contact with some relatives especially your Dad. Have you ever recived any note from your brother? Like chapter two it’s none of my business. Just am so thankful you are out of that evil cult. Thanks for sharing! Todd

            • Eileen

              It is also important to know that you also can just let go and move on with your happy life. Forgiveness does not mean that you have any responsibility to her. She made her choices.

        • Stacy

          Sounds like you’ve tried everything humanly possible to reach her. It’s all up to her now. It will happen. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but it will happen. Hang in there:(

        • Todd Tomorrow

          That’s so sad that her new family is that horrid, Sea Arghh. Reminds me of Ginger Sugarman’s mother. She was dubbed, The Queen of the Way to Happiness Booklets. She gave out more of those pamphlets than anyone else and dedicated her life to doing so. After she reached an age where she could no longer keep up that pace the, Sea Org booted her to the street! She was found eating out of garbage cans. Her daughter with whom she disconnected from 20 years earlier took her in and fed her and gave her a warm place to sleep. Her health was fading quickly and a couple of stone faced clams came to visit but they never showed up again. Her children who were not wealthy all pitched in and the three of them paid for her nursing care. Remember this was the, Mother that disconnected from them decades before.

          • Sunny

            This kind of shit is why I am glad we get to fucking swear here because these heartless things that the “church” (cult) does are SICK, SICK, SICK!!!!!!!!.

    • Techie

      Sunny, no time for a long comment but your story touches my heart somehow. tonyortega.org/2014/12/18/rick-ross-has-a-new-book-that-will-help-you-get-someone-out-of-scientology/ I can’t recommend an actual intervention, your mom is probably far too cloistered for that, but there are a lot of good tips and useful information in Rick Ross’ book. At least when the whole Scientology charade falls apart some day you will be able to come along beside her and help pick up the pieces.

    • NOLAGirl

      Sunny, first let me say that I am sorry that after going the Co$ wringer that you still have to deal with disconnection. I would never compare our two situations because they are completely different, but when my mother was still drinking (sober 15+ years now praise Xenu) I felt like that too. I was already grown and out of the house and I rarely heard from her, and when I did, she was usually drunk off her ass.

      I truly do remember feeling like “When will you get off your ass, get better, and be my Mom again”…even though I was a grown woman. In short, my therapist told me…Take care of you, be the best person you can be so that when she is ready for help you’re there with a strong foundation for her, because you’ll never force her into rehab.

      I didn’t buy it at first…skeptical me. 🙂 But when she was ready for rehab, I was there and because of that, she is a functioning, sober woman today who spends her time sewing and loving her kids & grandkids.

      Keep the faith love, one day you’ll be glad you did. As Stacy said below: We are here if you need anything. 🙂 ((((((hugs)))))))

      • i-Betty

        We’re never too old to stop needing our mums, and I’m so glad your mum is strong and well now 🙂

        • NOLAGirl

          Thanks Betty. I’ve always admired her. That she was woman enough to face her problems and apologize for the pain she caused…well, I admire her even more now. 🙂

          • i-Betty

            She sounds like a remarkable woman 🙂 To have overcome so much and rebuilt a wonderful, happy life with you all. She must be so much stronger than she ever thought possible when she was in the midst of her alcoholism. What a role model to you children 🙂

      • Frodis73

        Nola, I love this story and that you got your mom back. Happy dance!

      • joan nieman

        Touching story with a beautiful ending!

        • NOLAGirl

          I want that ending for Sunny and so many others torn apart by disconnection. It rips my heart out that in this day and age an organization can use this as a tool against people.

      • richelieu jr

        So lovely!

    • pluvo

      Hang in there! There were never so many people – some highly competent – exposing the cult and its doings with blogs, videos, books, articles, reports … court cases. The CoS is leaking members and few are taking their place (Karen said that there are about 5,000 Sea Org members and 30,000 EX SO members – just to get some ratio as an example here).
      DM, with his storm troopers, got rid of his best staff and many devoted public – also some very ‘hard core’ members left; he is producing non-stop more enemies.
      There is a nice and short summary: http://www.mikerindersblog.org/2015-2/ – with Tory’s words: “tick tock
      time is on our side”. We need to keep up the pressure and support those at the forefront. I will ‘go my way’ when disconnection is a thing of the past and DM is gone.

  • Rita Gregory

    “More the brig to total captivity than the bridge to total freedom.” I think that should be the dictionary definition of Scientology.

  • chukicita

    “I loathe the thought that recovery is inevitably arduous and takes years.”

    Perhaps the perception that recovery is long and heavy is part of the mind-chingando. The people best equipped to help are painted as eViL pSyChS. Hubbard wanted to reinforce that reaching for help is going to hurt.

    It doesn’t.

    • This.

    • Juicer77

      Each person has to face his/her choices in their own way, and on their own timeline. I could never ask anyone to follow my path exactly, it’s not their path. I agree with you 100% that ex-$cions are often scared off from good therapeutic or psychiatric care because they’ve been taught it’s “evil.” Such a shame… Hmmm… now I have a idea for a new comment. Will post up top.

  • Richard Grant

    Thanks, Jon and Tony, for this most heartening installment of the “Atack Saturday” series!

    A personal comment about the temptation to compare Scientology with the military: This is one of those things that always prickles at me about Hubbard. I was, by happenstance, an active-duty military officer toward the end of the Vietnam era, in naval service at that, when my old dear friend got seduced by Scientology. So I was struck right away by this whole let’s-pretend Navy charade.

    I know Hubbard was a naval officer himself, but I still find it hard to believe. His version of the military is like a cartoon, or like the recollections of someone with an impaired or twisted memory. He remembers the uniforms, and snatches of nautical terminology, and certain bits of shipboard ritual like musters on deck. He retains a blurry, possibly traumatized impression of people shouting orders all the time, of seniors berating juniors, of discipline meted out. Even more dimly he recalls certain higher-level concepts — mission, duty, honor, loyalty — though their meaning seems to elude him.

    And from this jumble of damaged psychological baggage, he assembles his make-believe military. And surprise, it consists of nothing but the bad stuff, the trivial stuff, the cartoon stuff — the shouting, the endless musters, the seemingly pointless drills, the “white glove” inspections, the groveling before superiors. The real military is so unlike Hubbard’s version that, while comparison is inevitable, it is also inevitably misleading.

    I am a gay liberal Democrat, but I mostly enjoyed my military service — and to this day I’m getting almost-free health care as a result of it. Like Jon, I don’t advocate war as a path to personal growth. But seeing those photos of solemn Hubbardjungen in their generic uniforms with their swords held high just pisses me off.

    • ze moo

      You should be pissed Richard, Hubbtard was all about the stolen valor and any money he could make from it. I can believe that Hubbtard’s ships were run by a deranged Capt Bly and that his sailors would have happily throw him overboard at the first opportunity.

      Lroon never understood that discipline is ‘self’ enforced and that the commanders first duty to see that his charges are technically proficient and capable in their jobs. All the rest flows from that and proper management from the petty officers and officers. Lroon braged that he locked up the Navy manuals, so that the junior officers had to ask him everything. That is just a recipe for disaster. Lucky that he shelled an ally and was caught before he did too much damage.

    • romanesco

      It’s difficult, if not impossible to reconcile the warlike imagery with Hubbard’s claim that his methods would put an end to war. Ah, well. Another one of those doublethink or “cognitive dissonance” things.

      Jon talks here about toughness learned in Scientology, but evidently tough-mindedness is discouraged. How firm can you really be in your beliefs if you can’t allow yourself to look at things from another angle? If you can’t consider other options and still hold with your belief system, it must be very fragile.

      • NOLAGirl

        “It’s difficult, if not impossible to reconcile the warlike imagery with Hubbard’s claim that his methods would put an end to war.”

        Just to be certain can we send the Cardones to Syria with some Way To Happiness booklets? I am sure nothing bad will happen. 🙂

        • Rita Gregory

          Snickersnort!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Can they take Myles? They are going to need someone to carry all those little booklets?

          • NOLAGirl

            YESS!! I feel a plan coming together. 😀

          • joan nieman

            Oh! I think that would be a lovely job for them.

          • I’m sure they’ll understand his charity bombs in Syria.

            Sunday Funnies: Scientology Gets Colorful! June 23, 2013, Tony Ortega, Underground Bunker

        • richelieu jr

          I personally would buy popcorn for everyone were the Cardones to be decapitated by their equally deluded ISIS captors.

          So, please don’t go, Cardones. Please, please please don’t put your belief tot he test and prove it’s not just a money-making scam and a way to feel better than other people who don’t have to rip-off idiots for a living.

          My sincere interest in not having to spend money on popcorn and of course in your health and continued existence as a stain on humanity leads me to plead with you– please don’t actually try and do anything good. Pleas edon’t show,us how great and rch and brave and superior youa re bya ctually doign somehting that isn’t in Bel Aire or Westwood.

          Don’t go to Syria with the booklets. Please, please, please don’t take a cheap flight to Jordan and thence to any number of locations were you could cross the border into Syria.

          But, if you do- Please take pictures and don’t hold your stupid iPhone vertically, you idiotic escapees from the fetid nutsack of an evil dimwit and some corrupt and rabid farm animal’s eggs…

    • 1subgenius

      Very good observation.
      Hubbard’s narcissistic personality disorder did not mesh well in the service.
      He created his own that would.

    • Richard, my guess is Hubbard was loaded most of the time while in the military, alcohol or drugs or both, hence his exaggerated “memories.” I was in contact with two people who were with him in Oak Knoll hospital after the war, and independently of each other they said he was a hypochrondiac pain in the ass.

      • Richard Grant

        Thanks, Skip — I remember you’ve mentioned these two guys before. It’s interesting to think about — I mean, maybe the dude was such a mess that he really WAS getting yelled at by his superiors all the time. He seems to have had a knack for bringing out the worst in people.

        • That’s it. Most striking to me was a guy who told me about picking up Hubbard post-WW2 and taking him to parties. Elwrong couldn’t afford a car. He said everyone knew Hubbard was full of crap, but he was such an entertaining liar people like to have him at parties for amusement.

          • villagedianne

            Hana Eltringham Whitfield was an early high-ranking of member of the Sea Org. She served on the ship with Hubbard, and she has said that one thing that kept her in at that time, despite the red flags, was Hubbard’s larger-than-life presence and ability to entertain with great stories. Now she is an ex with some stories of her own to tell about Hubbard’s cruelty:

            https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hana%20eltringham%20whitfield

            • Haven’t had the pleasure of meeting her, but I’ve found her very entertaining when I’ve seen her on video. Telling stories was big-time entertainment in the Sea Org, particularly among people who had hung out with the Big Fat Liar. My favorite remains Bill Howey imitating him perfectly, observed by Humorless Hubbard, who wrote and issued the Jokers & Degraders policy the next morning that basically called anyone joking around a Suppressive Person. When anyone speaks fondly reminiscing about Elwrong, I know immediately they’re batshit crazy.

            • villagedianne

              When anyone speaks fondly reminiscing about Elwrong, I know immediately they’re batshit crazy.

              Like Captain Bill Robertson.

            • John Ausley took me to a meeting of folks all enamored with “Captain Bill.” After it was over we had coffee and John says, “Well, what did you think?” I said, “That’s the craziest mother fucker I’ve ever seen.”

            • richelieu jr

              Plenty of other reasons to know that cat was batshit…

            • Destructor of Worlds

              http://www.suppressiveperson.org/sp/archives/319

              HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE

              Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex

              HCO BULLETIN OF 5 FEBRUARY 1977

              (Also published as HCO PL, same date.)

              Remimeo

              EDs, COs

              HESes, S/Cs

              HCOs

              HASes

              Sec Checkers

              Case Supervisors

              Staff Section Officers

              C/S Series 100

              JOKERS AND DEGRADERS

              It is an old principle that people who do not understand something occasionally make fun of it.

              A recent investigation however into the backgrounds and case
              condition of a small handful of people who were joking about their posts
              and those around them showed a somewhat more sinister scene.

              Each of these persons fell into one or more of the following categories:

              1. Were rock slammers. (Some List 1.)

              2. Were institutional type cases.

              3. Were “NCG” (meaning no case gain) (the only cause of which is continuous present time overts).

              4. Were severely PTS (Potential Trouble Source) (connected to rock slammers).

              It might be supposed that misunderstood word phenomena could also be
              part of this. The rebellious student in universities is usually handled
              by clearing up his misunderstoods or curing his hopelessness for his
              future. However, the investigation did not find that any of these jokers
              or degraders were acting that way solely because of misunderstood
              words, but the possibility cannot be ruled out.

              The four categories above were, however, fully verified.

              All the persons investigated were found to be the subject of
              declining statistics, both having them and causing them. Their areas
              were enturbulated. At least one of the jokers was physically driving
              basic course students out of an org.

              In some cultural areas, wit and humor are looked upon as a healthy
              release. However, in the case of orgs, this was not found to be the
              case. Intentional destruction of the org or fellow staff members was the
              direct purpose.

              Therefore all executives, HCO personnel and Case Supervisors as well
              as Qual personnel and Staff Section Officers have a valuable indicator.
              Where they have a joker or degrader on their hands they also have one or
              more of the above four conditions in that person.

              This opens the door to handling such people.

              Properly assigned and then fully done conditions are the correct ethics handlings.

              Correctly done Expanded Dianetics, which includes Confessionals and fully done PTS handlings are the case remedies.

              Where ethics tech itself is not known or neglected and where there
              are no HCOs one can, of course, not expect the matter to be handled. And
              this would be too bad because the case gain and life improvement
              available in proper ethics handlings, when fully followed through, can
              be quite miraculous.

              Where rock slammers have been undermining the tech and it is not
              fully known or used or is altered into unworkability one cannot expect
              Confessionals to be properly done or Expanded Dianetics to be known and
              properly applied.

              The joker is advertising his symptoms. He is also advertising an area
              of the org where there is enturbulation and down statistics as well as
              staff members being victimized.

              Therefore this is an administrative and technical indicator which cannot be overlooked and should be followed up.

              Spotted, investigated and handled, this can be the beginning of an upward spiral for an organization.

              Where someone is driving ethics out, tech is not likely to go in. You
              have to get in ethics and tech before you can begin to get in admin.

              The next time you, as an executive, wonder why you are working so hard, look for the joker in the deck.

              Humor is one thing. Destroyed orgs and human beings are quite something else.

              It is our business to get the show on the road and get the job done.

              L. RON HUBBARD

              Founder

            • villagedianne

              How different things would have been if Hubbard had the ability to laugh at himself.

            • “Humor is one thing. Destroyed orgs and human beings are quite something else.” Before revision: “Also, it makes me very butt hurt as Flounder that Bill Howey is entertaining people with a perfect imitation of me when he’s supposed to be doing quartermaster and watching the ship all night with nothing else to do.”

              I believe at that time (or maybe it was later) that Paulette Ausley was Qualifications Secretary – Commodore’s Staff 5 (over the Qualifications division worldwide). Paulette didn’t know the difference between a “rock slam” (a jagged and often wide movement of the e-meter needle) and a “dirty needle” (just a niggly little back and forth). So, TONS of people got accused of having rock slams, which worked out perfectly when Elwrong needed a hard-working free slave labor crew to clean up and renovate the former Cedars of Lebanon hospital and turn it into “the Complex.”

              John Ausley told me about some of Paulette’s shenanigans, including that. His ex-wife sounded like a total load. I later asked Nikki Merwin, who was Mary Sue’s communicator (secretary) and best friend, who was also on the Apollo at tht time, about Paulette’s “crashing misunderstood.” Nikki said “Oh, everybody knew Paulette had that misunderstood.”

              So much for Flubbard’s bullshit “tech.’

    • Shelly Britt Corrias

      interesting to hear a comparison from someone who was in a real military. I don’t know about other ex-SO members, but I used to feel extremely embarrassed and awkward going out in public in the naval uniforms. To me it was an insult and a slight to real servicemen, and not MY attitude at all. God it was horrible and I hated it from Day One.

    • Frodis73

      This was quite interesting and I think you are absolutely right. I was raised by sorta hippie parents that were not too pro-military and it tainted my world view in my early years…by the time my opinion had shifted it was too late to join. Looking back now I think the military would have done some good for me. 🙁

      • Richard Grant

        I’m pretty sure it did some good for me. One thing that fascinated me about military culture was the sense of getting immersed in a tradition that is very old and seems to be very similar across nations and cultures. There’s a scene in the great movie Joyeaux Noël (about the Christmas Eve truce of WWI) where three young field officers — French, German and British — meet under a white flag in no-man’s land to work out how they’re going to handle this unexpected turn of events. They are of roughly equal rank and age, and they’re instantly able to communicate and get down to business. It is remarkable in that the fundamental job of each of these men is to lead troops into battle against one (at least) of the others, but unremarkable that they understand and respect one another from the outset. Should they happen not to kill each other, they would happily sit down after the war for a drink. It’s strangely and perversely human, and I would guess the next dominant species will arrange things a different way.

        • richelieu jr

          And it really happened, let’s not forget. It’s not just a movie..

        • TheQueenofBulgravia

          Their Humanity kicked in. Leaders can suppress Humanity to varying degrees but sometimes in the strangest circumstances it refuses to obey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce

          London News, January 9, 1915. …

          The Illustrated London News’s illustration of the Christmas Truce: “British and German Soldiers Arm-in-Arm Exchanging Headgear: A Christmas Truce between Opposing Trenches” The subcaption reads “Saxons and Anglo-Saxons fraternising on the field of battle at the season of peace and goodwill: Officers and men from the German and British trenches meet and greet one another—A German officer photographing a group of foes and friends.” [1]

          http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Illustrated_London_News_-_Christmas_Truce_1914.jpg

    • richelieu jr

      Beautifully said, Richard.

      Hubbard’s military is like a guy who learned Military stuff from McHale’s Navy and Sergeant Schultz. No wonder he was constantly getting dressed own for exceeding his authority and acting like a big shot (whilst acting incompetently).

      He managed to impart his incomparable ability to know where it was but to have no idea what it was about on nearly all subjects.

      Like PT Barnum putting up signs saying ‘This Way to see the Egress!’ as if it were some new wonder instead of simply the Exit Hubbard led his followers step by over-hyped, disappointing step towards poverty, ignorance, delusion and… the Egress.

      Check it out, still-ins! The Egress is the most incredible, absolute best part of Scientology!

      And it is FREE!

    • grundoon

      L. Ron Hubbard was a “direct commission” officer. He received his commission as Lt. (j.g.) USNR despite having none of the usual training or prerequisites.

      Wikipedia: A direct commission officer (DCO) is a United States uniformed officer who has received a commission without the typical prerequisites for achieving a commission, such as a four year service academy, a four year or two year college ROTC program, or one of the officer candidate school or officer training school programs….

      Civilians who have special skills that are critical to sustaining military operations, supporting troops, health and scientific study may receive what are called “direct commissions.” These officers usually occupy leadership positions in the following areas: law, science, medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, nurse corps, intelligence, supply-logistics-transportation, engineering, public affairs, chaplain corps, oceanography, merchant marine affairs, and others….

      The U.S. Navy Reserve Direct Commissioning Program allows university-educated professionals, between ages 19 to 35 (or older, in some cases), the opportunity to be appointed as an officer in the Navy Reserve. Most DCOs hold advanced degrees (MAs, MBAs, JDs, MDs, DOs, PharmDs and Ph.Ds.) and/or significant civilian work experience…. The Direct Commissioning Program serves the expanded needs of the Navy in certain officer skill areas listed below….

      * Public Affairs Officer

      “Depending on the specialization and duty-status of the officer, “DCOs”
      as they’re called, will attend either Officer Indoctrination School
      (OIS), Officer Development School (ODS), or Direct Commission Officer
      School (DCO School) which vary from two weeks duration for certain
      Reserve DCOs to five weeks duration for Active Duty DCOs.”
      However, there is no record that Ron attended any such school. He was given a home-study correspondence course in the customs and traditions of the Navy, and then apparently went through a 3-week course for PR officers, before being ordered to duty in the Phillippines (but got only as far as Australia, where he caused enough trouble that he was quickly kicked out of the Pacific Theater and sent back to the US). His later Navy training consisted of sub chaser school and military government school.

      Previously, Hubbard had a short stint in the Marine Corps Reserve, and somehow emerged as a First Sergeant although he had spent only a few weeks in active training. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/joining.htm

    • Psychologist Margaret Singer, a seminal expert on the topic of groups called “cults,” once worked at Walter Reed and wrote about the distinct differences between cults and the Unites States Marine Corp.

      See http://www.culteducation.com/brainwashing2.html

  • Fucking A! ….. Can we also give Espi one more chance in the same spirit of fuck ’em and all that?

    • ze moo

      One of my personal mottos has always been ‘fuck em if they can’t take a joke’.

      • Richard Grant

        +1

      • shasha40

        Tony’s right , we want to be welcoming , not douchebags like CoS . We’ re trying to watch the demise of an abusive cult , not be it . 😀

        • ze moo

          All humans need an ‘asshole’ filter. I agree about the abusive behavior.

          • shasha40

            I believe in killing with kindness . Xoxo.. 🙂

      • 1subgenius
        • ze moo

          I have long been a devotee of the Church of the SubGenius.

          • 1subgenius

            If you ever get the chance to attend an X-Day Devival, do it.

            But don’t blame me.

            http://www.subgenius.com/newdevivals.html

            • ze moo

              They used to do a 4th of July thing near Chautauqua NY. I understand they got a good turnout.

            • 1subgenius

              Yeah, I forget the name of the place.
              “Good turnout”, to say the least.

            • NOLAGirl

              “Jehovah’s Witness Protection Program”

              Bahahahaha!!

            • 1subgenius

              Bullshit masquerading as wisdom, or wisdom masquerading as bullshit?

        • Couch_Incident

          I was recruited out of college by Rev. Stang. For those willing to break the eighth seal, I present “ARISE”:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0x9ymMQUg8

          • 1subgenius

            This is best viewed after a healthy dose of frop.

          • April

            Where is this from? I must have been living under a rock for a long time because I’ve never seen it.

        • Destructor of Worlds
        • Couch_Incident

          The Conspiracy is sending me to Bangkok tomorrow to negotiate a contract. Little do they know that it is my opportunity to hack my way through the jungle to Dobbstown!
          http://subgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Dobbstown,_Malaysia

          • 1subgenius

            Just don’t whistle while you piss.

    • TonyOrtega

      Some cursing is fine, but abusive behavior to every new person who showed up is why he got the boot. And abusive behavior is still a ticket out of here.

    • Eclipse-girl

      ML,
      Many of us miss him.
      He is smart, and knows a good of history.

      Tony O warned him more than once about his behavior.

      Tony O has admonished many of us when we were being stupid, and most of us realized that
      a) This was Tony O’s place that he generously shares with us
      b) Tony O was right and we took our scolding
      c) Changing our behavior was required to stay here

      • Juicer77

        I still hope Espi is ok, though. He was accelerating, I think.

        • Dale A.

          Who is Espi?

          • Eclipse-girl

            An former member who was famous for attacking trolls, and protecting long term members who were being targeted by trolls.
            He loathed the chult.

            He stepped out of line one too many times

            • stillgrace2

              … and he knew a lot about the activities of farm animals and bonobos, too.

        • Eclipse-girl

          I wonder about him, too.
          I would like to know that he is doing OK.

          • BFM

            Knowing Espi, I think he is all right. Not the type to crumble, I am sure he will continue his fight against what he thinks is injustice in his own unique Espi way.

        • NOLAGirl

          I hope he’s ok too. If anyone knows how to get in touch with him I’d appreciate if they could let him know we miss him and are all hoping he’s doing well.

          • Frodis73

            ^^^This. I hope somebody here is in touch with him.

          • Todd Tomorrow

            I saw him posting on Marty’s or Mike’s last month under the same name. Seemed fine to me.

            • NOLAGirl

              If you find a link to that post or see him posting again would you mind pointing me in the right direction? I’d like to say hello.

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Will do.

        • Todd Tomorrow

          Actually he had calmed down from his prior behavior.

    • HTC

      Who is Espi?

      Edit: I just saw below

      • Eclipse-girl

        go down this comment stream

    • Ella Raitch

      Espi’s banning was not for language, but for going hard at newcomers,

    • Eileen

      Doesn’t that legitimize his past behavior?

  • 0tessa

    Marty Rathbun has a new post up, about ‘owning the truth’. Fits Jon’s article too.

    • Richard Grant

      Marty’s post.

      “Close inspection of any one of these proprietary routes (irrespective of the ornateness of its projected piety) invariably exposes a common fault.”

      This man has a way with words, no doubt. But I’m not sure it’s the Way.

      • Phil McKraken

        I can’t read his stuff. Makes my head swim. If he’s got a point buried somewhere under all that tripe, I can’t find it.

        • Eclipse-girl

          Me, too.

          • Phil McKraken

            The think is, to hear Marty talk, he sounds crisp, clear and engaging. He really ought to write in his natural voice, rather than trying to channel Herbert Marcuse.

            • Richard Grant

              Exactly, Phil, and very well put.

              I admit I find it a little off-putting, too, when somebody who has taken up a particular course of study decides, after just a few years, that he’s in a position to deliver pronouncements such as:

              “The single most fundamental, sweeping and powerful truth in all spiritual study, contemplation and practice was probably best summed up in a single sentence.”

              This reminds me of someone. Someone whose name gets mentioned pretty often here. And whom Marty probably doesn’t really want to emulate.

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Basic stuff one grows up with? “You are what you think.
          Similarly, the Bible (Proverbs) succinctly echoes the same idea:
          For as he thinketh in his heart, so he is.”

      • May be Marty doing it to over speak Sherman/Miscavige speak, as a joke.
        Mission accomplished.

        Go Rathbun’s!

        • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

          Very hard to read, but point gotten!

      • romanesco

        Some people hate Hemingway, but at least he got the fucking point across. Sans ornateness.

        • Richard Grant

          romanesco, I totally agree. I think all English-language writers (and readers, for that matter) owe Hemingway some gratitude for making the point that if you’re such a smart writer, you don’t need big words or complicated sentences to prove it.

          The SF writer Joe Haldeman gave a talk once about how puzzled he was when a couple of reviewers compared his style in “The Forever War” to Hemingway — whom Haldeman had never read in his life. So he picked up a copy of some Hemingway novel and immediately realized he HAD read it before — by way of other writers like Robert Heinlein, who had obviously been influenced by Hemingway’s plainspoken style, and who in turn had influenced Haldeman’s. Who in turn … etc. I thought that was a pretty cool story.

      • NOLAGirl

        His walls of text used to put me off reading his posts. I am glad to see he’s found paragraphs. 🙂

      • Kim O’Brien

        word salad . is english THAT hard ? Still ? It’s like it makes him feel important or smart . So much for ” all that great comm”

  • ze moo

    Jon says it so well. Just tug the string and the whole thing unravels. The first realization of ‘this is bullshit’, starts the unraveling process. Some will unravel faster then others. Those who have been immersed in the ‘tech’ for 30 years are going to take a while to pull all the stitches out.

    I expect that most of the whales have noticed the ‘keep your nose to the grindstone’ and ‘don’t natter’ and constant reminders of ‘KSW’ so that they are already sitting on the fence. Not that sitting on the fence is going to do them any good. The real whales have dedicated ‘account managers’ {called ‘case supervisors’ in clamworld} who will do anything to keep the money flowing. We will see how the fundraising for the various projects goes, that will be the most important indication of the ‘health’ of clamworld.

  • stillgrace2

    Hey. look what I found! Berry Cobbler for the Bunker! Help yourself!
    I’ve also got Major Dickinson Blend coffee from Peets in the french press … grab a mug and pour!
    Happy S-Atack-aday! First one of the year! (F5)

    • DM SCOHB for a DOLLAR.

      • And it’s tax deductible.

      • richelieu jr

        For a slice of pie…

      • BFM

        He is so cheap, only willing to pay just one dollar to practice such an ecclesiastical activity.

    • Juicer77

      Thanks, Grace 🙂 Very nice of you!

    • Shelly Britt Corrias

      “Happy s-Atack-urday!” ^^^

  • 1subgenius

    Is there a method of single donations for those sorry SOBs, like me, who live one day at a time?

    • HTC

      Yes, I think it’s at the top once you click on paypal.

      • 1subgenius

        huh?

        • HTC

          Let me try that again. You need to go to Tony’s home page, then at the top of the page there are two options: “Donate” or “Subscribe”. When you go to donate you can enter an amount.

      • 1subgenius

        Oh, I see it now. Upper right.

        • HTC

          subjenious indeed lol

          • 1subgenius

            Indeed.
            Act like a dumbshit and they’ll treat you as an equal.

            • Rita Gregory

              Ouch.

    • Rita Gregory

      “It’s also still possible to make a one-time donation to bunkerfund@tonyortega.org” per Tony.

      • 1subgenius

        I don’t know how to make that work. It pulls up email, and then what?

        • Rita Gregory

          If you have a paypal account you would make your payment to the bunkerfund email above.

          • 1subgenius

            I see a button now on the upper right of the main page.

  • Jon, it’s a nightmare to wake up from, not just a dream. Thanks for once again providing such a wise dissection of cultishness. The “superhuman” stuff always fascinated me in its foolishness even while in. I remember Ed Goss telling me once at Celebrity Centre that he got in because he wanted to be a god. I wonder how he felt when his OT8 wife, my friend Rose, died of a heart attack in her early 50s? How did her pal Nancy Cartwright feel? Reading your piece, I thought of OT filmmaker Eric Sherman, who never made a movie worth a damn even though his father Vincent Sherman was a great Hollywood director. A martial artist named Danny DeVito (not the actor) who was an OT I believe, left the cult in the 80s and did something that Eric didn’t like. Eric, who I believe was OT7 at the time, said something about taking Danny’s head of, as though he could do it with mere intention. I knew I could knock Eric out with one punch and he couldn’t do anything except file charges. His bravado was laughable. One time I asked Bill Houst, who was a big showman and an entertaining guy, to do something OT after he finished OT3. He raised his arm and grinned. Bill died of a heart attack a few years later. As for Ingo Swann, he was the real deal, and I understood his claim that he could do certain things before $cientology, because I could as well. As time passed and I realized how many desperate pretenders there were in the cult by the time I walked away, with the escape hatch being your book, Jon, it was easy.

    • Dale A.

      “I realized how many desperate pretenders there were…” Such a great expression Skip.

      • I try to explain it as it was. I formed that opinion of them while I was still involved. One reason I stuck around as long as I did was because there was such an endless procession of wacky people. It was like going to to zoo for free.

        • stillgrace2

          “(Scientology is) like going to the zoo for free.” I choked on my coffee! Hah!

    • richelieu jr

      Skip, thank the gods that someone around here is admitting that every Scientologist didn’t necessarily join to save the world and do goo for his fellow man. At times it sounds like an army of enslaved Gandhis around here.

      Any proper Scientologist thinks they are better than absolutely every person on this list and every other human being on the planet. It is kind of the point.

      They may wish to share their knowledge and good fortune, or to piss on us from a great height, but we are all wogs to them.

      • From long experience and with great certainty, I assure you they are idiots, richelieu. There was a time when people came to the Celebrity Centre to assist their Hollywood career, believe it or not. Larry Anderson, for example, was someone I met at a $250,000 party the McCartneys gave after the “Wings Over America” tour in Beverly Hills. Larry was touring as the star of “The Magic Show” at the time. Other acts were John Belushi doing his Joe Cocker imitation, the entire cast of “The Wiz”, Chuck Norris doing a karate demonstration, and Nelson Riddle and his Orchestrat. Maestro for the evening was actor Carl Ballantine of the “McHale’s Navy” TV show. Spanky Taylor and I invited Larry to the Celebrity Centre and he got involved because he thought he could meet people who could help his career. He was one of many people who thought being involved could help them advance, particularly after John “Evil Toupe” Travolta became such a big star in the movies and evangelized the crap out of the cult

  • BosonStark

    From the first time I heard it, the grandiosity of Hubtard’s “clear the planet” stuck in my mind like a hairball. Sure, the promises of Dianutty sound wonderful. These days, why isn’t it enough to have the whole world of things and ideas and knowledge to explore via the Internet?

    Whatever you’re interested in — past lives, UFOs, ESP, accelerated learning, perception, art, foreign languages, math, science, health, cooking, music, history, religion, politics — it’s all there on the Internet to explore with an ease and depth which has never been possible before.

    In evaluating any information, before the Internet we were often at the mercy of the opinions of a few friends and family, and subject to our own whims and dreams, and limitations of our own experiences and often means. Then there was the problem of time. If you wanted to know just one piece of information, let’s say, how much a year of Scientology would cost, that would take days to find out, and be difficult to find out, because they would always give you a runaround. So people did crazy things, like see an ad in the back of a Hubbard book, call up and join the Sea Org! One person who did that got stuck for five years, after reading one book by Hubbard.

    With Scientology, now there are the experiences and analyses of ex-members to read about, and contrast that with what active Scientologists (including indies) can communicate about Scientology themselves. Something is very wrong here, that active Scientologists are limited to selling it, but not really discussing it or how it works.

    • Juicer77

      You have the absolute right to believe some tenets of Scientology if you choose to do so. There has, however, NEVER been a limit on questioning what you are taught, thinking for yourself, researching a subject, or objecting to harsh treatment. These things were not invented when the Internet came along. Our only limitations in these respects are the ones we put on ourselves.

      • BosonStark

        Yes, but the Internet made it a lot easier to find information about things and explore differing opinions, and access the experiences people have had.

        Today, the same person who might have walked into an org to “see for themselves” by taking courses, is very likely to be stopped cold just by reading the wiki on Scientology, if they do that. That was not possible before the Internet.

        I was stopped cold by reading some pages out of Dianutty while standing in a store. I thought it sounded intriguing, until I read parts of it. I never looked for it in a library or store again. Apparently Dianutty did not have that effect on everyone, and some of those people became clams.

        • ze moo

          How anyone can read Dianutty and think ‘this is life changing’, is beyond me. It is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

          • BosonStark

            I guess it goes back to the old, “I want to believe.”

          • Tracy Schmitz

            i’m guessing the same people who have no idea what “cognitive dissonance” is (or can spell it?)….

  • Juicer77

    To lurkers and former Scientologists – the church’s teachings about psychiatrists and those in the mental health field are false.
    I speak from experience and with the true wish to help.
    You have the right to seek good treatment with the doctor/therapist of your choice.
    You have the right to ask questions and find out if you have a condition such as depression or anxiety that can be treated with appropriate medication.
    You have the right to disagree with this diagnosis if you don’t feel it’s correct.
    The doctor must treat you with respect, listen to your concerns and address them.
    You didn’t “pull it in” – it may be a true medical condition or chemical brain imbalance.
    Find out. Ask questions. Don’t be afraid.
    The days of forced lobotomies and other horrors that LRH so feared are long gone.
    Psychiatry has come a long way since the 1950’s. Many new and improved treatment options exist.
    If you are struggling, seek help. You will find many willing and able to help.
    http://www.healthyplace.com/other-info/psychiatric-disorder-definitions/mental-health-bill-of-rights/

    • Eclipse-girl

      ^ This

    • HTC

      I personally am leading a better life through chemistry. Meds are my friend.

      • richelieu jr

        So am I.

    • NOLAGirl

      Two things I’d like to add:
      1) There is nothing shameful about needing medication for any reason.
      2) Not every person who goes to see a mental health professional will be offered or told they need medication. (<– This is one Co$ lie that I hate. That every MHP will try to push meds on every patient.)

      • Juicer77

        Excellent additions.

      • romanesco

        Thank you. Medication is a last resort for those suffering from PTSD, a possible if not probable result of long-term mind control and other abuses found in Scientology.

        • MaxSpaceman

          Wellness tool: a very helpful cognitive self-help technique called, W.R.A.P. – Wellness Recovery Action Plan – developed by Mary Ellen Copeland. She wrote a version of WRAP for SAMHSA. An action planner from SAMHSA.gov (Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration) is here and it can be very useul: https://store.samhsa.gov/shin/content/SMA-3720/SMA-3720.pdf

          • stillgrace2

            Thank you for posting this link, Max. I read the introduction (so far) … good info.

            • MaxSpaceman

              🙂 Grace. And love the companion – it supplies a foundation for all cognitive wellness and recovery personal work – on ‘self-help.’ Easy to say- and often needs the description offered here, for grounding an individual to begin getting well and staying well, throughout life. A Self-Help Guide: Recovery & Wellness Lifestyle. http://store.samhsa.gov/shin/content//SMA-3718/SMA-3718.pdf

      • rom661

        I went to a psychiatrist a number of years ago and his first suggestions were going for walks, relaxation exercises and light meditation. Obviously an agent of big phara/Xenu.

        • NOLAGirl

          I saw my therapist during a very difficult time in my life. In the state I was in she could have easily, and within reason, given me any number of medications. She saw to it that I got a complete medical exam with my doctor that included blood tests and throughout our six months of sessions she never once suggested a single medication and I did learn things from her that I still use today in moments of stress. Also an obvious Big Pharma agent. 🙂

          • villagedianne

            My psychoanalyst did not believe in medication except in extreme cases. She felt it masked but did not solve the persons issues. This was the 80’s so I am not sure how she would feel if she were practicing now. So I had several years of psychoanalysis with no medication, which I am glad of.

          • April

            NOLAGirl. The complete medical exam and blood tests is standard practice, in order to rule out medical conditions that can cause psychiatric symptoms (ex. hypothyroidism, diabetes, brain tumors, etc.).

        • Todd Tomorrow

          A friend of mine went through a bad divorce. Her psychologist sent her to a psychiatrist since she wasn’t getting any better. This man has turned out to be a real asset in turning her around. He didn’t prescribe her meds until the second month of weekly appointments and it was a mild anti depressant. She was not able to get out of bed prior to seeing this, Dr. I’ll have to admit I was dubious and told her that most would just dope her up. But he turned out to be the best therapist she’d seen thus far.

    • BFM

      I second this as a long time in ex. My exit therapist (holding degrees in psychiatry and psychotherapy, my former mortal enemies) has helped me beyond words.

      We drafted my treatment plan together and adjusted as needed. It’s marvelous to work with someone who understands the mind with 21st century knowledge.

      If you seem fatigued, or can’t seem to find your way in life after leaving the cult behind, you might want to give it a try.

      Good thing is, of you don’t like it, or don’t need it after all, you are free to leave 🙂

  • 1subgenius

    Just made a rather (ahem) huge donation, which should keep Tony rolling for at least the next hundred minutes.
    I am honored to qualify for Tin-plated Misanthrope Minimus. I shall display my microscopic trophy with pride.

    • Juicer77

      Hear, hear good sir! I shall gift you with a tiny feather duster with which to keep it shiny.

    • Techie

      Maybe some pirate coder could persuade Disqus to add a little Glutemus Maximus Priofundis logo to those commentors’ avatars who have donated more than $5.

      • Eclipse-girl

        The amount doesn’t matter, it is the thought that counts

      • 1subgenius

        Yeah, I thought awards, ala CoS, would be fun, but I think Tony wants to keep it anonymous.
        Self-congratulations are certainly tacky, but always an option.

        • NOLAGirl

          I don’t want to sound like a bitch (and this isn’t directed at your original post as I know you were being comical) but if anyone posts what they donated I am going to post the Feshbach pregnancy painting. 🙂

          I find talk of money, amounts, etc. tacky and unnecessary. Plus, it will just make people who can’t donate large amounts feel bad.

          • Frodis73

            Lol, great threat…that will keep the bragging at bay as nobody wants to see that horror show.

            • NOLAGirl

              That thing is atrocious isn’t it? I used to think the velvet paintings of dogs playing poker were bad. After seeing the Feshbach nightmare I’d gladly hang the dogs over my fireplace.

          • joan nieman

            Right you are Nola. We don’t want to take part in that chult way of thinking. Biggest applaud for the biggest giver. Thank you for that comment. I agree with you completely.

          • L. C. Spencer

            Also, Tony said his lawyer doesn’t want him to know. Soooo, anonymity it is!

            • NOLAGirl

              ^^^^^

          • 1subgenius

            I meant to post this here:

            Some feel that a good deed is best done anonymously, and I agree.

          • stillgrace2

            Oooooh, please don’t post that picture. It’s such a beautiful day. I’m doing my best to live off the money I make as a consultant, and not touch my retirement $, however, I figure I can always give up a latte a month for the cause. Done and done!

            I also ordered Jon’s new edition of “Blue Sky” and picked up the Rick Alan Ross book- using the Amazon link that can be found to the left at the top of this page, right under the “subscription options”. I am SET for a fabulous Bamuary. Thank you, Tony.

          • villagedianne

            Not the picture nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

          • richelieu jr

            That’s what I call MAD- Mutual Assured Destruction–

            And thanks a lot for putting that image in my head, @disqus_tt7iaa3tn6:disqus !

        • Eclipse-girl

          I think Tony O doesn’t want to pressure anyone.

          There are some people here who do not have a great deal of extra money and they shouldn’t feel ashamed because they may not be able to contribute.

          Tony O values, and we value his integrity. Knowing who donated or how much a person donated could compromise that.

          • 1subgenius

            Some feel that a good deed is best done anonymously, and I agree.

    • Todd Tomorrow

      Can’t wait for feverish ceremony next year. Who will be the,”Most dedicated SP I know”? Can’t be Tony as he will be the host for the night. Guess, I’ll have to start saving for a suit to get In.

  • 0tessa

    Scientology: is that all there is …?

  • Sejanus

    The twists and turns the mind must go through as the Hubbardese flushes out must be astonishing.

    To be able to wake up and not take your first breath of the day in fear.
    To be able to revel in the new found life being experienced.
    To be able to be your own true master of your own destiny.
    To be able to…Be More Able…as the Crimson Creep said only without his derailing influence.
    To be able to do what YOU want.

    It has to be the second best feeling in the world next to donuts.

  • Dale A.

    Read Peter Caddick-Adams, “The Secret Madness of Adolph Hitler” at Salon.com 1/3/15. It’s one more theory put together from the few disparate facts available. Agonizingly familiar.

    • Graham

      Just finished reading Alan Bullock’s “Hitler, a Study in Tyranny”. He reports German General Guderian as saying that Hitler “Had a special picture of the world, and every fact had to be fitted into that fancied picture. As he believed, so the world must be: but, in fact, it was a picture of another world.” Does that remind you of anyone?

      • Richard Grant

        My German teacher gave me a book of collected humor from the WWII period. Some of it I didn’t get, and much of it wasn’t very funny except in a bleak way, but I remember one joke about a little old peasant lady who makes a rare visit to town, to settle some question over taxes. As she’s standing in the Town Office, she notices a globe with the various nations depicted in different colors. She turns the globe to a big area colored in green.

        “Is this Germany?” she asks.

        The clerk looks up and says, “No, Madam, that is the United States.”

        Puzzled, the lady rotates the globe and finds an even larger area, this time colored red. “Then this must be Germany!”

        “No, Madam. That is the Soviet Union.”

        “Then where is Germany?” the lady cries, now in some distress.

        The clerk gets up, walks over to the globe, and points to a small blue speck. “Here is Germany,” he says.

        The lady’s eyes grow wide. She thinks for several moments. Finally she says, “Has anyone shown this to the Führer?”

        • Techie

          My dad was a transport sergeant after the war, and he had a number of German POWs working for him, driving trucks around Europe. He told me a joke that he heard from them – one says “What happened to the Luftwaffe?” the other replies “nicht benzene” (out of gas). For those not familiar, one of the reasons the Germans lost the war was because of the loss of the oil-fields in the Middle East soon after the US entered the war – in the final months there was almost no air cover for German operations.

          • joan nieman

            Interesting point Techie. There are many factors that brought the Nazis down and that certainly is one of them. In my mind, I am always comparing the idealism to the chult.

        • joan nieman

          Ha ha! Very meaningful story. Brings to mind Flubbard’s ” What’s true for you is true “. or some such incoherencies.

        • I spent some time with some German aces once – Adolf Galland, Mackie Steinhoff, Gunther Rall. Galland had a pretty good sense of humor and Steinhoff was hysterical. Rall was still kind of a typical Nazi. I’ve found Germans then and now to have a entertaining, wry sense of humor – which is one of the reasons they matter-of-factly says $cientology is bullshit.

    • Kim O’Brien

      why is it that so many exes alway compare DM to Hitler ?? It really does zero for the exes argument . Only Hitler was Hitler . It’s like ..even in delusion …they want their experiences to be compared to the worst genocide in history . LRH and DM like Hitler ? Try Jim Jones …or the fruitcake from Waco , or the goofballs with the purple capes and nike shoes who thought the mothership was coming to take them away . They even try to make their pain ..SUPER DUPER more than anyone else . It’s really pathetic , self serving and out of proportion . It shows their hand right away …and gives them the excuse that they were all just brainwashed and controlled by ..gasp ..wait for it ..Hitler. In reality ,they paid money to yell at an ashtray cuz they thought they would end up with super powers. Wow , ppl in LA who think they are special …what a shock . And now ..even their pain has to be ” special” but comparing their experiences to the Jews of Europe . It’s gross ..and does nothing to move the ball forward. Can’t figure out why they still do it ..it just makes us wogs say ” yeah …whatever ..Hitler my ass ..grow a set of balls and leave the cult or stop whining about it “

      • How about mini-Hitler, can you live with that?

        • Captain Howdy

          Or as Davey’s mom so affectionately refers to him “Little Hitler”.

      • Captain Howdy

        Sometimes I agree with everything you wrote..sometimes I’m not so sure..it’s tough be a cynical misanthrope around here sometimes. I feel like I’ve got my own cognitive dissonance thing going on as far as I how I feel about it. I think some of the folks here are taken aback by your New England charm, Hah!

        • Kim O’Brien

          sorry ..i am much more charming and lovable in person:) and i give great hugs , and you can have a kidney if you need it ( not kidding ) ..This is a forum to exchange information ..not really to communicate …so i get to the point quickly and harshly . I would step in front of a bus for someone who needed help ..but i will push someone in front of a bus who refuses to help themselves…( not because they can’t , but because they don’t want to ) We all make mistakes , we all screw up ( queue my failed marriage ) but for crying out loud ..it reminds me of that scene in Forest Gump , when Jenny gets hit by her boyfriend , he tried to apologize to her and says ” It’s the war baby that made me do it ..and Nixon ” I love all ya’ll …but c’mon …hitler ? every time ?

      • stillgrace2

        Kim, I think it’s the “sociopath/psychopath” thing that is the root of the comparison.

      • Robert Eckert

        Obviously, he has never had the power to do damage on the same scale, but how much damage a psychopath causes is more a matter of luck and circumstance than anything else. The personality type is very much the same.

        • Kim O’Brien

          my point is ..they always use Hitler….like the worst of the worst . Makes them feel better than saying Jim Jones . It’s always Hitler . Always . why is that ? They don’t want to admit how common LRH Was . Just a common sociopath , a t-shirt, a punch line. And one thing you can always tell about scios ..they think they are super special , even when it comes to being sold a bag of goods . The seller has to be Hitler cuz no scio would fall for just a common douche.

          • Robert Eckert

            No, we don’t always use Hitler. We have had long discussions recently comparing and contrasting with the cases of Joseph Smith and Muhammad, for example, and the most frequent comparison has been with Kim Jong Un.

            • Kim O’Brien

              face palm

          • Destructor of Worlds
        • stillgrace2

          Just so I’m on the right page, we’re talking about the similarities in the mental disorders displayed by both Hitler and LRH, for sure (some war-related), and maybe also with David Miscavige, whose behavior and strategies are eccentric, to say the least.

  • rom661

    First of all, never heard the phrase “bless his cotton socks”. Is it tongue in cheek? This is important because I wear cotton socks sometimes. If there is yet another area in which I’m not cool I guess I need to know it….

    Re: Fuck Google and make Paypal donations, I’m all in. I can’t imagine the time Tony puts in on this ongoing commitment and the least we can do is pay the bills to keep the lights on while he toils. I watched his lengthy interview on Media Mayhem. He called the host on interjecting her personal issue into one matter. I love the fact that he feels like he does about Scientology but still insists that he reports facts and identifies speculation as what it is, as well as reporting BS as BS. Oh, yeah: Bullshit. Just signed up for my subscription.

    • romanesco

      Not clear on the cotton sox thing, but “all in” means plumb tuckered out in Britspeak.

      • Graham

        Not heard of ‘bless his cotton socks’? Aw shucks, bless your cotton socks dearie. It’s a patronising way of patting someone on the head and saying ‘Never mind dear, you tried your best’.

        • romanesco

          Haha! Thanks, but I didn’t try my best. I didn’t even look it up. But thanks for the info!

      • 1subgenius

        Different in poker.

      • rom661

        Hadn’t thought of the British connotation, but I meant it like 1sub – poker.

    • NOLAGirl

      Don’t worry about your socks rom, it’s just a saying like “bless his heart” or “isn’t he precious” it is not a slight against cotton socks. As a matter of fact, cotton socks are awesome. ; )

    • Frank Lee

      “Bless his cotton socks”, it’s a southern thing. I used to have a friend from the deep south who cracked me up when she would say “I’m so hungry I see biscuits walking on crutches!”

      • Frank Lee

        Another thing that cracked me up was once having a Japanese boss who came to me and asked “what does son of a gun mean?” I didn’t realize until then how foolish some American sayings were until that moment!

    • pluvo

      I found this – so you are fine with your cotton socks 😉 .

      Bless her/his cotton socks. (British & Australian humorous)
      something that you say when you want to express affection for someone
      My little niece – bless her cotton socks – won the school poetry prize this year.
      http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Bless+cotton+socks

  • In my opinion Scientology is a destructive cult and in this sense the same recovery process that helps other former cult members helps ex-Scientologists. Specifically, understanding how Scientology parallels the practices of other groups called “cults” in its Indoctrination process and its methods used to retain members through coercive persuasion and by promoting unreasonable fears about disobedience and leaving the group. See http://www.amazon.com/Cults-Inside-Out-How-People/dp/149731660X There is chapter in “Cults Inside Out” about “Moving On” that explains this in some depth, which is footnoted with pertinent research material. Many former members of cults may have trust issues regarding a therapist, counselor, etc. especially ex-Scientologists who have been influenced to have unreasonable fears about mental health professionals. But education is not counseling and can be a neutral, objective, very helpful if not the pivotal factor in a meaningful recovery process.

    • Captain Howdy

      I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all that you have done down through the years.

      Thank You, Mr. Ross.

      • NOLAGirl

        See, that’s what I love about the Bunker. You never know who will show up around here. I hope Mr. Ross doesn’t mind that most of us are in sweats or pajamas. 😀

        • Funny you should say that as I am in sweats now.

          • NOLAGirl

            Good to know. 🙂 The coffee is on, help yourself.

            • indie8million

              I’ll start some popcorn after lunch. 🙂

      • Thanks. It’s been a long haul. It’s good to know that people appreciate my work.

        • MaxSpaceman

          uncounted scores of thousands if not more, and continually growing. your work matters in a big way in the real lives of real people. it’s hard to top that. 🙂

        • richelieu jr

          Hear, hear!

      • Shelly Britt Corrias

        Ditto that, Mr. Ross. I was just clicking through on your morning tweets and here you are. Many thanks.

    • NOLAGirl

      Mr Ross, I won’t repeat what Howdy says below, but I would just like to thank you for all the work you’ve done and info you have on your website on the FLDS. Flora Jessop’s story was one of my early forays into oppressive religious groups and your site was a goldmine of information for me at the time.

      • Thanks. The Cult Education.com database continues to archive information about polygamist groups and has collected one of the largest archives about polygamists on the Web. The Scietnology archive is also very large.

    • Techie

      Mr. Ross, never thought I’d say this after reading and believing all the horrible lies about you in “Freedom” (should be “Slavery”) magazine etc., but thanks for your work. Breaking free of the Scientology cult is really a matter of education, but it can take a long time if you don’t have access to reliable materials or have so much emotional investment in a cause that you are blind to the true information that exists. You can leave a cult physically and still carry around the lies and manipulation. You never really recover unless you can see what was really being done and why.

      • Exactly. That’s why I wrote the book “Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out.”

        There is a chapter on Scientology and one on the deprogramming a Scientologist.

        There are also chapters on defining a destructive cult, cult brainwashing and recovery.

        The idea was to produce a book that could help people to better understand how cults work so that they can navigate out more easily and/or help others to realize what may be wrong so that they can also leave with a better understanding. The book has more than 1,200 footnotes, a 18-page bibliography and 15 page index. It contains historical information, research material and a practical approach to unraveling cult programming broken down into easy to understand blocks with specific case examples like Scientology.

        By the way, I know that my dead agent file compiled by Scientology is now more than 200 pages long. It’s interesting that Scientology put that much effort into it. This seems to signify that I must be doing something right.

        • BFM

          “This seems to signify that I must be doing something right.”

          Right on the money there. The more extensive your personal DA pack, the more you scare them shitless.

          Thank you!

    • L. C. Spencer

      Echoing my thanks along with so many others, Rick, and I really appreciate this comment specially. I wasn’t a Scientologist, but my family’s cult fostered a similar fear of any outside counselors, therapists, or whoever that might impart a different mindset than the one that had been carefully programmed into me. When our family was at last destroyed and it was time for teenage me to recover, I begged for some sort of therapy, not knowing at all what I might get. The exit counseling I received from of all people a HYPNOTHERAPIST was fantastic. No improper suggestion, no implanted thoughts or memories, no control, just gentle support for the growing ability to think for myself.

      Cults constantly warn their members of the very evils of which they themselves are perpetrators. If an authority figure in your life is warning you about some outside group of people and how they just want to own or destroy you, take a long, cold, hard look at that authority figure. That’s his own crime against you.

      • Thanks.

        I have tried, with the help of many researchers and professionals, to compile a synthesis of information about cults in my book. It’s very important to know what works and how it works and establish ethical boundaries. For example, no one today does involuntary deprogramming with adults. All intervention work is done on a voluntary basis, with the possible exception of a minor child under the direct supervision of a legal guardian.

        The overwhelming majority of former cult members seems to benefit most from education. Very few go through “deprogramming” or any specialized professional counseling. Education is a crucial tool in the post-cult sorting out recovery process.

        Psychologist Margaret Singer once said, “Deprogramming is providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power has been taken away from them.”

        This should always be a primary focus of any cult education effort and is the pivotal release point in freeing yourself from the psychological and emotional shackles of a destructive cult.

        • richelieu jr

          ^^^^^
          This! A Thousand Times This!

    • Kim O’Brien

      you do amazing work …man, i want to invite you to a dinner party LOL

      • Thanks.

        Started in 1982 when L. Ron Hubbard was still alive. It’s been a long run about 500 interventions and counting. Some interesting Scientology situations along the way.

      • Thanks.

        The Internet and all the information now available on the Web have made education regarding cults easier. The Internet certainly has been devastating for Scientology. But many cults also use the Web as a recruitment tool. We are seeing this now with ISIS and many small cults that post videos through YouTube and generally network through use of the Internet.

      • Thanks.

    • aquaclara

      Helping people exit and recover is such important work. We hear much from exes about what lit the spark, and then what caused them to take that big step out. Educating people and exposing them to the truth is painful, takes time and yet, it can work.

      Thank you for doing what you do. I’m in awe of what you’ve accomplished over the years, especially in the time before the internet when getting people out involved equal parts luck and courage.

    • Jon Atack

      Good to see you here Rick. Not simply cults, but all groups follow the same route of indoctrination – so much of which is accepted by society. But I must say that in 30 years of dealing with cults and counter cult groups I’ve been fascinated to see how few ‘experts’ can adequately deal with scnists. I remember talking to a prominent member of CAN, in the early 90s, who explained that she would deal with any of the 2000 groups considered dangerous but not scn. When I checked success rates for ‘exit counsellors’ the highest number I heard was a one in two success rate. During the last five years that I did such work (I stopped in 1995), every member I spoke to decided to leave. I came back last year – and you have to believe there was a certain trepidation on my part, after the 16 years of harassment I suffered up to 2000 – precisely because so many people were not recovering.

      So, while I agree that the process is basically similar, I’d recommend that you read the blogs I’ve posted here, to see in which particular ways Scientologists can be helped. Steve Hassan, Janja Lalich, Margaret Singer and Michael Langone, among others have contributed excellent work in this field. But much of my work is very specific – it is necessary to understand that the particular teachings of a group are bogus, not simply the mechanics of exploitative persuasion. So, Scientologists have to consider the ‘truth question’ as Professor Johs Aagard put it and reflect on ‘ARC’ or the ‘8 Dynamics’ to realize that it doesn’t actually make sense. Otherwise, they can spend years approaching it from the point of view of Lifton (which is essential) or attachment theory (also full of insights). And, I’ve dealt with about 600 ex Scientologists and seen many who were messed up by counselling, because counsellors thought they could generalise or use more hypnosis on severely hypnotised people. The pivotal factor in recovery is comprehension and that often comes from understanding the precise nature of the trap, rather than subscribing to anyone’s notion of ‘counselling’ or model of the universe. I’ve seen enough people take back their lives to be very, very sure of this. I suggest you skim the comments pages here, where you will see people coming back to life in this marvellous community.

      • I have read your material here and follow Tony’s blog daily. In my experience over the years it seems that many former cult member think that their group is somehow unique and/or worse than the others. Admittedly, some groups are more destructive than others in their degree of destructiveness, i.e. some are violent, mandate medical neglect, sexual abuse or suicide.

        In my experience Scientology is no more difficult in deprogramming than other groups The key is access and and adequate time, and of course Sea Org members would typically be the most difficult to access and have sufficient time for meaningful dialog..

        Perhaps you might read my book or at least an article about my approach at Cult News to better understand my work.

        See http://www.cultnews.com/2010/12/cult-deprogramming-an-examination-of-the-intervention-process/

        One of the four blocks described in the article linked above that forms the basic elements of an intervention is a discussion about the group and its particular practices and history. But the other three, which are just as important, are family concerns, coercive persuasion and defining a destructive cult. A destructive cult is distinctly different than other groups–all groups do not follow the same route of indoctrination. Margaret Singer made specific distinctions regarding this issue in her book “Cults In Our Midst.”

        Hassan, Singer Lalich, Lifton and Langone are all quoted and footnoted in my new book along with many other research sources in the field. There are about 1,200 citations and an 18-page bibliography to help the reader.

        You might enjoy reading the chapter specifically about Scientology and another about Scientology intervention, which was successful. it involved a 27-year member of the group. he is doing quite well. The book details my intervention approach and offers case vignettes from different types of groups such as Neo-Eastern, large group awareness training (LGATs), bible-based group, etc. The point is to show how all destructive cults have the same basic structure and dynamics and though each intervention may address a different type of group they inherently revolve around the same basic issues prevalent in all destructive cults.

        My success rate generally has been about 75%. In the book I establish and explain a base rate and specifically define what I consider a successful intervention. There is also a chapter about “Failed Interventions,” explaining what can go wrong. I don’t know of another book that is quite this detailed and about cult intervention work.

        See http://www.amazon.com/Cults-Inside-Out-How-People/dp/149731660X

        Thank you for all the good work you have done.

        We both know how difficult it can be to oppose Scientology.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    I’m thinking of the superpowers.

    First, I remember OT8 from the early 1970s as “CONTROL over matter, energy, space and time…” as opposed to, “AT CAUSE over matter energy, space, and time…”. A friend remembers it the same way and called the word change a slight of hand. Am I correct? If so, “at cause” sounds a little vaguer with an ability to nudge MEST in a certain direction. “Control” sounds as though it can be manipulated and pushed in any direction at all.

    Next, I remember being told by a trusted friend of his witnessing the use of OT powers. One instance was the OT knowing where rubber bands were, in a desk that the OT did not have access to. The other instance was an OT knowing what my friend had had for breakfast. That is all it took for a do-it-for-Ron Scieftologist to be convinced.

    So, why did I not witness OT? There were several reasons given to me at the time.

    1) Actually I was seeing OT powers in action. Just for Scientology to exist in the presence of so much suppression was proof of OT powers. I had been told that a few times.
    2) People would panic. And I agree to this day that people probably would panic if their whole system of belief were set on edge, by say, a Marvel Comic Book movie coming to life in Times Square. But there are more subtle ways to introduce OT to people, if it really did exist. Uri Geller’s and Pat Price’s fake OT powers don’t panic anyone at all. Showing real powers that don’t look stage magic wouldn’t panic anyone either.
    3) Gaining OT powers are a poor incentive for someone to go up the bridge step by step. What nonsense! All sorts of education is done on a gradient basis with motivated people on every step of the ladder, no matter what their eventual goals may be. Besides, the Scientologists spend a lot of time trying to convince people of OT, but they just won’t demonstrate what they preach.
    4) OTs don’t think like we do and we can’t judge them with our paltry WOG considerations. I remember the example I was given. I was told that some people don’t like blue jeans and if L.Ron wore blue jeans they would judge that he couldn’t be OT. Really, I was told that. That was the sort of thing preached at the Toronto cult office when I was 17. No wonder the vast majority of people, even the vast majority of burned out hippies who had used too much LSD, wanted nothing to do with Scientology.
    5) Don’t ask about OT. A person’s case is his own business. Inquiry is poor manners.
    6) And one Scientologist told me that he had superpowers, without my even asking. He explained his superpower to me and the reaction he got when he showed it. The reaction was literally a line up of people who wanted him to use it for their advantage. I can see why someone in this position might want to keep it under wraps, and at the time I had no use for his particular superpower. I am not going to mention it to assure the person’s privacy but do you remember the Legion of Substitute Heroes who filled in for the Legion of Super Heroes if one was, maybe, sick or visiting Jupiter? There was Chlorophyll Kid, Infectious Lad and Porcupine Pete. This OT wouldn’t have made the cut.

    So, with all this, did I believe in OT? I thought it was possible for a variety of reasons. Allow me to reflect and analyze.
    1) If there was the least bit of a chance that it could be true I wanted a piece of it. If I was OT maybe I could get out of my parent’s house and get laid and be good at something and make some money.
    2) A lot of people actually believed in OT but they called it the Bible. Others witnessed miracles. I was not arrogant enough to call all the believers just plain wrong.
    3) How about the math whizzes who can multiply two eight digit numbers in their head in a fraction of a second. One visited my university that year and was written up in the newspaper. Isn’t that OT?
    4) Then there are the astral travellers and mind readers and levitators. Were they ALL lying? Was everyone that had ever seen one lying or duped? How about Ingo Swann? He had been validated by an authority no less than Penthouse Magazine. Bob Guicione had no reason to lie about him, did he?
    5) But the big reason was peer group pressure. About six friends had made an about face from skeptic atheists to believers in OT phenomenon. I ignored the fact that about a hundred friends had not become believers but believed that they would come around, and when they did, I might be in a position to do a lot of crowing.

    But with all this I never fully jumped in. (I say this even though Korgo’s Corollary is that everyone once in, no matter how deeply in, will tell you one day that they were never fully in) I waited for the proof to come to me though those in told me that I had to pursue the proof and that I was a fence sitter who would never take a stand on anything. I was troubled by that. It took me seven years to conclude that OT was BS.

    So what did I learn? (And if you have stuck with my listing things numerically this far please bear with me once again.)
    1) There is no end of people who will try to take you for everything you have.
    2) Even people who seem very straight and sober can be foolish. Many people are foolish, even some accomplished people.
    3) Life can be tough but it can also be pleasant and there are no easy answers.
    4) Don’t be afraid to be rude, though be no ruder than you have to be.
    5) Don’t be afraid to take a good long look at yourself but be suspicious of people who will benefit from you taking a good long look at yourself.

    • Observer

      Please forgive my triviality, but one particular bit of Scn ridiculousness jumped out at me from your thoughtful post.

      I was told that some people don’t like blue jeans and if L.Ron wore blue
      jeans they would judge that he couldn’t be OT. Really, I was told that.

      This, on the other hand, proved his OTness …

      refresh

      • Robert Eckert

        And you didn’t even need to shoop!

      • joan nieman

        OBs, he looks like the Quaker on the oatmeal package!

        • Observer

          Haha, he does!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          No, Joan, NO…
          Everyone knows that Jimmy Page is a descendant of the Quaker Oats guy.

          And L Ruin is WAY Uglier than either of them.

          Edit: Wait….Hubbard…Parsons…Crowley…Page…The Oatmeal guy. Hmmmmm!!!!
          Only 5 degrees………?
          Where is Kevin Bacon?

          Oh hell………..Now I want Bacon.

          • Captain Howdy

            Jimmy doesn’t look like the Quaker Oats Guy, he is the Quaker Oats Guy! He’s lived for centuries and he’s just trying to remember that satanic rejuvenation ritual but he’s having trouble because of a temporary brain cell deficiency.

          • Destructor of Worlds

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AStairway_to_Heaven

            “An article in the Independent on 7th April 2012 reproduces a rumor that
            Stairway was written after the Church of Scientology tried to get the
            band to join. Marty Rathbun, ex-Scientologist, told the newspaper
            “There’s an old rumour, from the 1970s, that Yvonne Jentzsch, who
            founded the Church’s Celebrity Centre, tried to convert Led Zeppelin,”
            he says. “The band got the sales pitch, and didn’t buy, but later wrote
            “Stairway to Heaven” about Scientology. If that’s true – and I’m not
            saying it is – I’d have to agree with Led Zeppelin. Scientology has
            become a stairway to heaven.””

      • Captain Howdy

        I was reading Korgo’s comment and I said to myself “wait a minute..I’ve seen L Ruin in blue jeans before”.

        And as far as Ingo Swann being “validated” there was Puthoff and Targ. The two clowns who happened to be real scientists, but one one was a scilon, and they also “validated” Uri Geller.

        • The Stanford Research Institute did some pretty interesting stuff. I met Puthoff once, and Ed May. Never met Pat Price, also involved, an OT7 who supposedly went around finding “implant stations” and blasting them (however he did that). I wouldn’t call Puthof and Targ “clowns” – what do you mean by that?

          • Captain Howdy

            They were real scientists who should have known better than to waste their time and intelligence on obvious bullshit like parapsychology and scientology. And SRI had nothing to do with Stanford University.

            They should have listened to Randi, instead they allowed themselves to get played like fools by tricksters like Geller and Swann, which pretty much destroyed their reputations.

            • Can’t disagree with you on that, but they basically got paid to screw around and test stuff out. Inspired a fascinating movie, The Men Who Stare at Goats. As far as Swann being a trickster, I thought Ingo was pretty cool. Good writer, excellent painter, and he did predict and describe the rings of Jupiter that the Voyager spacecraft confirmed, so you can’t discount completely his remote viewing. Randi seems to hate everything, so I just ignore him – I don’t like fakirs, either, but he’s a mental Luddite.

      • Is that an evil-looking son-of-a-bitch or what?

        • MaxSpaceman

          This shot looks like the worst of him, the late 70s, with Cinema-Tech being done around La Quinta, described by CMO Messenger Cowboy. When Dave was standing on a box as 2nd cameraman.

          • That’s it. I think the hat is covering up that big ole cyst he had on his head when they were in Queens or whatever, probably still existed at “Gold”. Can you imagine how horrible he must’ve looked years later at Creston? Old Chinese saying is that as you get older you get the face you deserve – he sure got it.

      • stillgrace2

        I wish I had that shirt when I was showing gymkhana.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I did have that shirt……….lol. (Ok, different color)
          Even had the black hat.

          I looked much better in that outfit If I do say so myself!!!!

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            I’m sure you looked awesome.

      • Frank Lee

        As a born Texan whose family arrived in the mid 1800s, this photo makes me nauseated. It is an embarrassment to any true cowboy and the history of this great state!

        • That’s it. I think the hat is covering up that big ole cyst he had on his head when they were in Queens or whatever, probably still existed at “Gold”. Can you imagine how horrible he must’ve looked years later at Creston? Old Chinese saying is that as you get older you get the face you deserve – he sure did.

      • Destructor of Worlds
      • indie8million

        Oh yeah. I was taken out of a shoot for gold because I was wearing jeans. I appreciate your comment on this. I thought it was something personal.

        Oh, wait. I was dealing with the SO and some of them didn’t like me very much at the time. Ok. Maybe it was personal. 😀

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      For a long time I stayed UTR and in good standing, sort of hedging my position — “just in case …”

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        There are thousands of people right now like you. I hope they are reading this. I’m sure some are.

      • indie8million

        I’m UTR because it’s none of anybody’s freakin’ business if I’m in or out. Raise my hand and get shot at? Hell no.

        I wouldn’t step foot back in an org for a million dollars. Well, maybe to get some scuttlebutt for Tony or Mike but, even then, you’re putting your sanity and personal safety at risk if you do.
        I’ll stay out, thank you.

    • Graham

      Korgo, I can relate to so much of what you said, though in relation to a different cult. “Those in told me that I had to pursue the proof and that I was a fence sitter who would never take a stand on anything.” That’s exactly what I was told by friends who’d joined the Bhagwan cult back in the 80s. Why was I unable to commit? It wasn’t, allegedly, something you could work your way into bit-by-bit. You had to take that leap of faith. They did, I didn’t.

      Fortunately there were fewer ‘lock-in’ traps than with Scientology so my friends had abandoned it by the end of the decade and re-joined me back in the mundane, unglamorous real world.

    • Jon’s right. It definitely said CAUSE OVER. In 1973, I asked someone at the Austin org what that meant. After all, it basically said you could raise the dead or kill someone (cause over life). The reply I got “It means exactly what it says.” I believe I have an old grade chart that states it.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        I was there in January of 1971 and blown in late August 1973. I still have to wonder if anyone else remembers it the way I do. I know memory can play tricks but, as I said, a friend remembers the same thing. It was a long time ago.

        • Most likely you’re correct, but in September of 1973 when I saw that chart is was Cause Over – so wouldn’t surprise me if Elwrong changed it to the more dramatic to boost sales.

      • Phil McKraken

        “It means exactly what it says,” has a non-obvious meaning. It also means, “shut-up, stop asking questions and toe the line.”

        • Why, Phil, you sound like someone who has heard far too often in a $cientology course room, while asking a perfectly logical question, “What does your material state?” from the course supervisor. I chortle, thinking of that lunacy now.

  • Science Doc

    New Clearwater aquarium story up on TBT.

    • flyonthewall
      • NOLAGirl

        The Tiny Terror really doesn’t have a clue does he? Keep pissing off the entire County Commission Dave, that should work out beautifully.

        • noseinabk

          I hope the commissioners will wake up and use the cults own tactics against them. They should advertise the cults behavior as to develop an “us vs them” response from the public.

          • NOLAGirl

            Cosmo & fly are discussing it above but yeah..sending people to “investigate” them is great way to build a good relationship. I hope their playbook starts back-firing on them more, it is time for it.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Yeah, that that was a real “Reporter” from a legitimate media outlet. Who came to visit was an OSA agent.

        • flyonthewall

          Classy move telling the aquarium they’re being investigated. Living, breathing caricatures those guys

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            Well, in Scion think. Anyone who is in the way of Scientology has crimes. They send someone over to “miss their withhold”, thinking the might back down to protect their “crimes”.

    • Frodis73

      It’s a shame they didn’t point out Rinder’s take down of that economic impact study. There was a quoate from Mike, but not sure if they stole it from his site or actually spoke to him. If anybody can comment over there it would be great to link to his article about the slanted study. Off to work for a bit.

  • Frank Lee

    Donations: Tony have you thought about having small ads here for attorneys who are well versed in Scientology court tactics? Any referrals they receive from this advertising would result in a portion of any proceeds going to you. I have no doubt that there are many people who seek legal expertise when it comes to dealing with Fair Game.

    As for Jon, thank you again for this insightful piece. You have stated many of my own observations and/or concerns about those who attempt to recover from the “process” of indoctrination as well as addressed the problems with “source”. LRH was an egotistical con man, and an immoral mentally unstable one at that. All the Free Zone members are doomed never to fully recover until they realize that one simple fact. Just as the rats that followed the pied piper, once they entered the water, the music wasn’t so sweet! May this be the year that many, many more recover from the curse of LRH.

    • joan nieman

      I like the reference to Ron as the Pied Piper. Very clever.

      • But Hubbard would have taken the money and the children and left the rats behind.

        • joan nieman

          Exactly!

        • Frank Lee

          Another very related song of the time, lyrics include:

          We’ll be fighting in the streets
          With our children at our feet
          And the morals that they worship will be gone
          And the men who spurred us on
          Sit in judgment of all wrong
          They decide and the shotgun sings the song (R2-45)

          I’ll move myself and my family aside
          If we happen to be left half alive
          I’ll get all my papers and smile at the sky
          Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
          Do ya?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE

      • Robert Eckert

        The Pied Piper of Hamelin is actually a true story, except that it was not understood at the time. “Pied” meant that he dressed in stripes and checks, etc., the kind of clothing that only clowns and jugglers wore in medieval times. He would dress up funny and play happy songs to entertain the children: think John Wayne Gacy. Since he was the rat-catcher, no-one thought anything of him emerging from sewers at any odd time of the day or night, and since he was such a good friend to all the kids, no-one thought to connect him with the mysterious disappearances. When it was discovered, the only motive they can think of was that he must have been protesting not being paid enough. In retrospect, we recognize the case as a pedophilia of the worst kind.

  • Shelly Britt Corrias

    Thank you as always, Jon. Before reading this, I read an article that laid out warning signs of someone becoming radicalized to violence. It focused on jihadists, but the parallels to the $cn cult are horrifying. At the same time, these similarities bring hope for developing methods to reverse and even prevent radicalization. I wish we could see 100 years into the future, to find out how man has progressed on this subject. Bet we’d see some familiar names as “pioneers”.

    As for the meat of your post: I find it especially encouraging. Halfway through Blue Sky, and never have I been more confident in my own opinion of the cult and its creator. That’s a few hours to correct 23 years of lies. I believe that I won’t have to dissect every “engram” laid in over two decades, which is a relief. What I’m finding is that things seem to be surfacing & untangling on their own, and I’m starting to recover memories/details of my time in. There are still effects of trauma to deal with, like you said, but blowing off the garbage can only help.

    Happy 2015 Jon!

    • Ella Raitch

      That’s good to hear Shelly

  • Tony DePhillips

    The bad part of it is that when you try to talk to an in-Scientologist about the errors or “out-points” then they instantly think you are “dramatizing the reactive mind” and are “down-tone” and trying to get them to “succumb”. Therefore they don’t listen to you and end up thinking that you are a “suppressive person”. The best way to do it is to find something, anything, (this isn’t easy sometimes, because if you are critical of Scientology then it means that you have “overts” (sins or crimes) on Scientology) that THEY disagree with and stick to that and to get them to talk about it and strengthen their views.

    • Ruby

      You are 100% on this, Tony.
      And when they are all in the middle of a bridge step “do over”, because something was supposedly missed the first time, that then becomes the reason you are so screwed up…obviously you are dramatizing the “missed” piece of tech and if only you would let us save you, it would all be ok again. What a trap!

      • Tony DePhillips

        You got it Ruby.

    • MaxSpaceman

      It is very difficult to attempt to navigate through the church member’s ‘fortress of belief.’ When trying to get through to Friends &/Or Family members, it can be a daunting task, indeed, as you point out. Here’s what one is up against: http://www.carolineletkeman.org/archives/9707

      Book title: Hubbard Dissemination Course: Staying in Control
      Publication date: 1986

      COACHING THE DRILL
      Position: Coach and student may sit facing each other a comfortable distance apart or they may stand ambulatory.

      Purpose: To enable a Scientologist to disseminate Scientology effectively to individuals. To enable one to contact, handle, salvage and bring to understanding another being. To prepare a Scientologist so that he won’t be caught “flatfooted” when being attacked or questioned by another.

      Patter: There is no set patter. The coach plays the part of a non-Scientologist and displays an attitude about Scientology upon being approached by the student. The student must then handle, salvage and bring the coach to understanding. When the student can comfortably do these steps on a given coach’s attitude, the coach then assumes another attitude, etc., and the drill is continued until the student is confident and comfortable about doing these steps with any type of person. This drill is coached as follows:

      The coach says “Start.” The student must then (I) contact the coach, either by approaching the coach or being approached by the coach. The student introduces himself and Scientology or not, depending upon the mocked-up situation. The student then (2) handles any invalidation of himself and/or Scientology, any challenge, attack or hostility displayed by the coach. The student then (3) salvages the coach. In this step the student must locate the ruin (problem or difficulty the coach has with life), and point out that it is ruinous and get the person to see that it is. When (3) has been done, you then (4) bring about an understanding that Scientology can do something about it.

      Dissemination Handbook. A compilation from Hubbard writings. Published in 1986.
      Published by Bridge Publications, Inc.
      1414 North Catalina Street
      Los Angeles, California 90027
      Copyright 1986 by L. Ron Hubbard Library

      Grateful acknowledgment is made for the contributions of the following: Ramina Nunnelee, Phoebe Mauerer, Richard Nunnelee, John Grant, Sr., Charles Nunnelee, Marty Kassowitz, Shawn Linderman, Russ Williams, Mary Stein, Ray Mithoff.

      Illustrations and design: Jessica Waldermann, Peter Green, Cynthia Coleman.

      Additional assistance from John Thomas, Cherie Eves, Paco Suarez, LRH Compilations Unit and LRH Dissemination Materials Project.

    • TheQueenofBulgravia

      Read John Atack about how to talk to a $ci….index above comment section

    • indie8million

      This is absolutely what I’ve found to work too, Tony. It’s the perfect gradient to creating agreement. Seeds take a little time to germinate but they do seem to find a way.

  • 3feetback-of-COS

    As someone who has been gradually disentangling from the Scientology mindfuck for 40+ years, a big thank you to Jon Attack for another wonderfully helpful essay.

    My story is not as interesting as many of the other exes, but while disentangling, I managed to have a good marrige, re-start my proffesional career, and now comfortably retire. I was one of the lucky ones and I am grateful for that and count my blessings every day.

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Glad to hear it.

  • nottrue
    • stillgrace2

      Great manicure, Tory! I like.

    • Frank Lee

      I am so glad that Tory survived her medical abuse at the hands of very deluded cult robots who obviously know so little about medical SCIENCE. I shutter to think what could have resulted from a grand mal seizure aboard a ship at sea! Good luck to you Tory, may 2015 be full of blessings beyond your greatest expectations!

    • Hey Tory, I think I fit that definition of a Clear. Oh wait, I do have a few pains in the ass…

    • i-Betty

      Look at that gorgeous, ageless face 🙂

      • Spackle Motion

        Very true! Lovely Tory never ages. She looks the same now as she did in her Magoo Dancing in Boston video.

  • Cosmo Pidgeon

    For those that have seen the movie Toy Story, there is a moment when Buzz Lightyear realizes that he really can’t fly and doesn’t have lasers or some such powers. So he feels very embarrassed and ashamed. Later he accepts this and finds real ways to be helpful in a real way and his self confidence is redeemed. I saw this with my kids some years ago and I thought how much I had felt like Buzz.

    • stillgrace2

      I love all three Toy Story movies. My son grew up with them. Remember when Buzz’s electronics get messed up and he starts saying things in Spanish? “Hasta el infinito y más allá!” Well, that actually happened with my Roomba; it spontaneously started to talk in Spanish instead of English.

      I thought it was a funny and refreshing fluke, then my son confessed later that he reset my Roomba just to tease me.

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        I do remember that. That’s funny though , a Spanish speaking Roomba…. What did it say?

        • stillgrace2

          “Uh Oh! Estoy atascado!”

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            Ha ha, I am jammed up?

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Here ya go Cosmo:

      http://youtu.be/vddEvqS6M4o

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        That’s it L Wrong !…Thanks.

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          The third Toy Story and UP both nearly had me in tears at the theater. Powerful stuff for “kid movies”.

          • Cosmo Pidgeon

            Holy Shit, me too, so I’m not the only one. Sentimental sap that I am.

            • L. Wrong Hubturd

              No, there were tons of people around me just sobbing during Up.

      • indie8million

        Awwww…I can’t fly. Yep. That is sort of what it’s like, coming out of the cult. “But you saiiiiiid we were the most ethical group on the planet and that we were making planetary changes.”

        Unfortunately, only in the story book of tiny DM. “Gather ’round children. Let me tell you another story so you’ll GIVE me another $100,000.00.”

        Bad DM.

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Red-X Red-X Red-X

    Pota de Cristo! $cientology lies
    Porca madosca! There are lies on CL
    Maremma bucaiola! $cientology lies on CL
    Andiamo.

    Go get ’em outta there.

    Got five minutes?
    Pay some more attention to JJ in Boston
    and Tony “Will-shill-for-food” Chen in Sacramento
    via the Regional tab:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml#

    Irony, thy name is $cientology.
    The perfect perfect float in a Hollywood Xmas parade:

  • villagedianne

    Maybe recovery depends partly on how much the public sympathizes with the trauma. Vietnam veterans with traumatic memories seemed to have a harder time of it than WWII vets. I think there are many possible reasons for this, including the different nature of the Vietnam war and the sorry state of the VA Hospitals upon their return. But I think a big part of it was the difference in public respect and support of veterans after Vietnam versus after WWII.

    Now that the general public knows more about COS, ex members can be more open about their experiences. They don’t have to seal it up in a box anymore. They don’t have to deal with a public perception that Scientology must be OK because Tom Cruise and John Travolta are members.

    • NOLAGirl

      My Dad was a Vietnam Vet. My mother told me story about them being out shopping and he was wearing something that identified him as soldier (I can’t remember at the moment what it was) and a woman walked up to him and spit in his face. My Mom said she never before, and hadn’t since, seen a look like that in his eyes. Support and sympathy from the outside is important. I am very glad we treat out returning soldiers better now.

      • TheQueenofBulgravia

        @@ 🙁

        • NOLAGirl

          No worries your Highness. ; ) He got over it and later in life it became the funny story of how he had to keep my pregnant, hormonal mother from ripping the woman’s face off. 🙂

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        That’s just terrible and I suspect an all too common occurrence in those days. Talk about misplaced anger.

        • NOLAGirl

          He didn’t talk a lot about it to me, but he did tell me that guys he knew experienced a lot worse so aside from that one incident, he counted himself lucky. Honestly, if he did experience anything else like that, he probably wouldn’t have told me. He knew it made me mad.

      • villagedianne

        The Vietnam war was very polarizing. A friend of mine who had just come home from the war interviewed for a job in a department store. The guy told my friend “We don’t hire baby killers.” My friend went for his throat and started choking him. He was so hurt and outraged. The police were called. Many police are veterans themselves. The police understood. They gave my friend a ride home and made sure nothing appeared on his record.

        • NOLAGirl

          🙁 That breaks my heart. I am glad the cops understood and took good care of him.

      • Frank Lee

        My father was one of the first B29 pilots of WWII and served on a Pacific island that ended the war. He personally knew the crew of the Enola Gay. During the late 70s, these men began to once again find one another and connect for reunions. My father became very animated and excited at the prospect of meeting his old buddies again. I was but a teen and one night at the dinner table said to him “how can you talk about the war as if it’s the most important thing you ever did, as if killing people was a good thing!” The hurt look of abject disappointment on his face haunts me to this day. I didn’t know the nightmares he suffered for years. I know so much more today, and hope that anyone who treated those returning from Vietnam also have a greater understanding.

  • Jgg2012

    Scientology uses sales techniques similar to Amway (and other multi-level / network marketing / pyramid sales companies). Go to an Amway meeting: everyone is ecstatic. Why? They believe that they are all close to making unbelievable amounts of money soon, and the $5,000 or so they invested will be paid back soon. In reality, 99% will never earn a dime, and one year later that enthusiasm is gone. Also, walk across the street and tell people you are from Amway, and they act like you have leprosy.

    • Frank Lee

      Yea LRH would have been the perfect salesmen to hack penis enlargement devices since he was such a huge prick himself!

  • Shelly Britt Corrias

    “Scientology instils constant self-criticism. Constant evaluation of your own state. ‘Am I doing it right?'”

    I would love to see this further discussed, if anyone’s interested. It’s one of my worst battles: constant self-criticism, evaluation, wonder. It’s like an auto running script sometimes. And if you just “let it play” it can get really dark. So far, my only rememdy has been to focus attention so thoroughly on something else, anything else, that it stops. Which seems a diversion, not a remedy. I’m guessing that talking about it for what it is will help. This is a case where I don’t know anything besides the introverted way of thinking – I don’t really have an idea what “normal” or “balanced” might be.

    • DannyBoy

      “This is a case where I don’t know anything besides the introverted way of thinking – I don’t really have an idea what “normal” or “balanced” might be.”

      “I’m guessing that talking about it for what it is will help. ”

      I think you’ve found your answer….

    • Drat

      I’ve found that anti-depressants help. Even though mind chatter continues, it is now neither particularly negative, nor do I take it too seriously. Perhaps not the ideal solution, but miles better than where I was heading before.

  • Mark

    What I like about Jon’s essays is that there’s none of the fretfully purgative quality to be found in some other cult-critics… (refresh):

    • i-Betty

      My mother used to tell me Ex-Lax was chocolate when I was little and couldn’t go to the loo. She scarred me for life. I can no longer even look at chocola…wait. No, that’s wrong. I can no longer stop eating chocolate. Evil matricidal woman. Happy birthday, by the way, mum! 😀

      • i-Betty

        I just looked up the meaning of ‘matricide’. That might not actually be what I meant to say 😛

        • Eileen

          Unless your meant to say that she killed her mother:)

        • Ella Raitch

          It scanned well,

        • Baby Mcgee

          hahahhahahhaha OMG Betty you are funny..

      • Mark

        I was lucky not to have been dosed with anything more extreme than Haliborange 😉

        • Satansthetan

          MMMM, we used to love those, until we found out it was orange flavour fish halibut liver oil!

          • Mark

            My mum had to hide the bottle, or I’d have scoffed the lot—halibut oil or not, they were scrummy—like orange Tic-Tacs on steroids.

      • stillgrace2

        My Dad told my that the STING I felt when he put alcohol on my scrapes and cuts was due to GERMS dying a horrible death.

    • flyonthewall

      Will there one day be a new and improved Atak-Ex for us victims of the Abrahamic traditions?

      • Mark

        Never heard of ‘Voltaireol’?

        • flyonthewall

          yes, but I’m concerned about possible side effects such as hyper-rationalism and anal-retentivitis

          • Mark

            Just be careful of Dawkins Panaceas industrial-strength ‘Preparation OUCH’ 😉

            • flyonthewall

              nice

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      One of your best, Mark. Bravo!

      • Mark

        Thanks, L.Wrong. Have to admit I was seriously tempted by some of the ‘Bile Beans’ adverts for a while…

        • L. Wrong Hubturd

          That was a hoot! Hearsay images brought up lots of choices. And they were medically tested, just like Dianetics. (refresh)

          • Mark

            They were still on sale up to the 1980’s, though I heard they were apparently more popular with gardeners than the chronically costive, as a cheap source of phenolphthalein (try saying that without tripping over your teeth) for testing the pH of soil-samples!

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      I love this.

  • i-Betty

    What a cracking read. Thanks so much, Jon.

  • Missionary Kid

    I’m laughing at Jon’s post, not because I find it ridiculous, but because it’s so true.

    Jon, your demolishing of the super powers and abilities claimed by $cientology is so hilarious because it’s so filled with truth.

    I’ve copied parts of it for my lists, among them, “Palpable poppycock with not an iota of proof.” His impeccable logic in demolishing all the things that Hubbard held to be so true is so on point that I shake my head in wonder.

  • nottrue

    Jon your words help heal the hurting……

  • DannyBoy

    Wow!!!
    Thank you Jon. As a never in I can’t speak intelligently to recovery from scientology, but as a person who has been involved in recovery of another type I can empathize and feel what it is you are saying. So entrenched in the prison of delusion that my insanity and dissonance seemed the only normal life. Unable to differentiate the true from the false.
    This is what makes the work done here and elsewhere so powerful. The sharing of each person’s experience strength and hope. This Is where the healing takes place.

  • Jon Hunter

    I live in England. Is there any way I can subscribe without paying dollars? I seriously love this site and want to help. Suggestions anyone?

    • Graham

      As I understand it you just pay with your credit card, specifying the amount in dollars. Your credit card company pays it in dollars but it appears on your statement in £s, with a note showing how they calculated the exchange rate.

      • Robert Eckert

        I don’t know if the same applies in the UK, but in the US at least, it is even the case that the credit card company can’t take of the situation to give you a bogus exchange rate and skim a little. I know this because, after some class-action litigation that I had not even heard of until after it was over, my credit card company sent me a check for $1.57 because I had used the card on trips to Canada and I was a certified member of the plaintiff class.

        • Graham

          I’ve just now subscribed via paypal. Paypal’s calculated the exchange rate and told me what they’ll be charging my credit card in £ sterling. The exchange rate they are using is consistent with googled exchange rates so it looks like there’s no attempt to skim a bit off the top. Of course they’ll be taking an amount monthly, so presumably they’ll be re-calculating monthly to reflect changing rates.

  • Destructor of Worlds
  • richelieu jr

    Thank you so much for this, Jon. You have very clearly and eruditely said what I have been saying for years– and what the ‘Indie Landing Pad’ contingent fights so ahrd against–

    The ‘Way Out’ is NOT the ‘Way In’. Ther eis notnead to build some new Bridge to Total Out of Scilondom…

    Just wake up! Reality is the cure, and you don’t need to learn it step by step folks, just open your eyes. Snap the fuck out of it!

    Easier said than done? Of course! But he way out fo delusion and lies is not watered down delusion and lies (or less expensive ones withput MIscavige!) but truth and everyday life.

    And let me add one thing to your list, if I may Jon:

    I was raised in a conservative Christian family, an Altar Boy, I have a degree in theology (well, Comparative religions with an concentration on Medieval Heresy, if you will) and I remember very clearly how a screening of De Mille’s The Ten Commandments (the Heston version) caused a series of escalating events that made me lose my (up to then) very-strong faith. I asked the right questions and thanks to a wonderful Priest who actually told me honest answers (some of the Bible is not meant to be literal fact but allegory), I re-read the enitre Bible looking to tell the difference and, as they say in the Good Book, “The Scales Fell From My Eyes”…

    One minute I believed, the next I just couldn’t. It was OVER.

    There was the messy business of dealing with my family, obligations as an Altar Boy, lectures from the local Bishop no less, and it was big drag and lasted a looooong time, but you know what?

    I am stronger for the experience. There is something, vital, necessary about realizing you can no longer believe something, even if your family and friends do, to saying “This far, and no further: This is where you end and I begin.”

    It is necessary to becoming an adult man or woman, to becoming a whole person (I do not mean to say that rejection of faith is necessary, but some sort of line must be drawn)

    And blurring that line with ‘religion-lite’ does nobody any good. The cure for heroin is not becoming an alcoholic.

    Thus mulack of respect for indies. Not only are they clearly, objectively wrong, theya re the pruveyoirs of falsehood and the rehabilitators of one of the nastiest, most self-centered shitheels ever to stain the shorts of the 2Oth centiury. If he had succeeded inhis goal of taking over a country how long before there would have been slavery (RPF) on a massive scale. Death camps? (‘body-dropping aide centres?’)

    Indies are selling discount drugs to recovering addicts and they should know better. Maybe it does halp some/. Great. Bit the obly redeeming factor is the fact that they are doomed to failure. If not they would be a cancer to be exterminated and I think they should be watched VERY closely, just as organized groups celebrating Hitler’s birthday, 9/11, royalists, or those wishing to rehabilitate Stalin.

    Answers are always easier under a totalitarian system with a Great Leader. I am sure you were all Great Followers. Gold Stars all around. Now grow the fuck up.

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      Game over! Bring back the marching band and the cheerleaders.

  • Bradley Greenwood

    I’m living for January the twelfth.

    • Captain Howdy

      I know what the big reveal is going to be.

      • Bradley Greenwood

        You’ve always been a tease, Howdy 😉

  • Baby

    oops

  • Baby

    Original Art..While working through my depression I painted.. I thought if I included quotes it would sink in eventually ( It did) You can see the dark cloud over my bedroom where I secluded myself for 4 years..

    The quote was attributed to unknown.. I could not find who originally penned it. ( 8×10) 300dpi

    • Dolly Jones

      This is so pretty, and uplifting.

      • Baby

        Thank you Dolly.. Good Lord that’s a lot of color..hahhaa My life was void of all colors.. I just thought..” Well if I add color to the canvas it will add color to my life..”

        It worked…but it took a lot of paint to convince me.

        • Dolly Jones

          You can never have too much colour.. hehe. Loving the new avatar Baby.

          So glad that you never gave up and finally got through your depression. Even if it did take a lot of paint 😉

          • Baby

            Well alot of paint AND Paxil..haha Thank you Dolly !

        • Frank Lee

          Your choice of bright pink says a great deal about the conflicts you were experiencing at the time, your passion, and the need to feel hopeful. Depression can be a hard beast to slay, hope your venture was a complete success! Bet you could sell some of your artwork to schools.

          • Baby

            Thank you Frank.. Yes my venture was a success.. My definition of success isn’t monetary .. It comes from within and sharing my art to all those who want or need it..

            I have many of my pieces in Human Services departments.. Veterans, Battered Women’s shelters.. Children Hospitals.. Hospice.. Homeless Shelters..AA facilities..Nursing Homes and Aides facilities etc.

            That is my way of giving back.

    • The colors/message/etc in that is just so cheerful!

      • Baby

        Thank you Tia Maria..xoxo

        • Always welcome! ♥ I’m up to no good this afternoon!! Had a couple ideas this morning while laying in bed….one was for a theme of haiku and then ANOTHER idea–non-haiku related….hope to finish it tonight! tee hee!!!

    • stillgrace2

      This is so good, Baby. Can I make a copy of it for my day-timer?

      • Baby Mcgee

        Absolutely..I would be flattered Grace..ox

    • indie8million

      My friend is from a Canadian Native tribe and she is always talking about “walking between the raindrops.” What a charming thought.

      Oh! YOU painted this one, Baby! You’re inspiring me.

      • Baby Mcgee

        Thank you indie.. I love the ” Walking between the raindrops.. too..”

        Thank you so very much. That is so nice of you to say..xo

  • Mark

    Interesting piece about the new aquarium and Shortarse’s opposition to wogs getting too close to FLAG &c., in the TBT: http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/church-of-scientology-works-behind-the-scenes-against-clearwater-marine/2212336

  • Spackle Motion

    Glad the donation button is back. We should contribute to the bunker as a ‘swear jar’ (a new name for ‘donation’). Maybe $10 a swear? Is that too steep?

    • Dolly Jones

      fuck that!

      • Spackle Motion

        That’s $10 for you!

        • Dolly Jones

          Noooooooooo, no one said we had started already… hahaha.

          • Robert Eckert

            NO-ONE is to stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle! Even– and I want to make this perfectly clear– even if he does say Jehovah!

            • Dolly Jones

              Hahaha….

  • indie8million

    While I admire Jon’s courage (I was there when his book first came out – and that was no picnic), there are other general assumptions that he makes that, to me, are not true.

    Spirituality has been with us for millenia. Buddhism, The Vedas, Christianity, etc., etc. All of these faiths/schools of thought have recognized man as a spiritual being and that each individual is god-like. ESP, out of body experiences, hands-on healing, etc. All of these concepts pre-date Hubbard. So, to say that no one has any of these abilities (which Jon refers to as ‘super-human’) is, again, to me, an over simplification of the human/spiritual condition. Ron wasn’t the only person to say that people could have these abilities. They are naturally occurring in most people. Remote viewing – completely proven, for example.

    The good of what Ron was trying to do in the beginning was to help a person reduce the negative that surrounded them so that the innate goodness and spiritual abilities could expand. (See: BAS 10R – Recognition of the Rightness of the Being)

    http://www.xenu.net/archive/SuperPower/Super%20Power-1.pdf (Go to the link and press ctrl+f and enter Recognition into the field. You’ll find the reference on the third click down)

    Yeah, yeah, Ron wanted to make money too but that was part of his journey. Yes, he had his own demons and out-ethics but it’s well known that most psychologists/psychiatrists get into that business to solve their own disabilities. I imagine that Ron was the same.

    Now, 65 years later, we all know how it’s turned out – Ron had his own problems and DM has destroyed the rest of it completely – but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water and/or pin all humans down to only animated clay with a one-lifetime sentence.

    Some may say, “Tsk tsk, indie8 is still drinking the Kool Aid”. You have your right to your opinion. But I have a right to say what I have felt is true and good about people, way before I ever heard the word, “Scientology.”

    Let’s take what Jon says with a grain of salt also. He did his research on Ron’s past – kudos for that. But his “spiritual views” are not on a wavelength that I would like to follow – Scientology or no Scientology.

    Humbly submitted for your consideration.

    • ze moo

      “that each individual is god-like. ESP, out of body experiences, hands-on healing, etc.” Humans imagine many things, but no one is ‘god-like’. That is the height of hubris. I can see why some think that the early parts of clamatology do them good. Giving people a structure for communication and living is helpful to those who don’t like the chaos of normal interactions. But that ‘structure’ is a trap in Hubbardism. A trap to get the devotees subservience and therefore, their money. In clamatology, it is all about the money.

      Remote viewing was always a scam. It has never been proven. The same for telepathy (ESP) or any other of the other woo-woo ‘sciences’. They are on par with Bigfoot alien space babies as foretold by Nostradamus.

      • Bob

        How much research have you done in the area. I agree with you about the whole God thing. There are however scatterings of humans with some pretty unique abilities.

        • ze moo

          “pretty unique abilities’ don’t mean ESP, remote viewing and other clam ‘postulates’. Yes, some people can do prodigious mathematical calculations in their head. Acrobats can do amazing stuff too. I have yet to see anyone call down Cthulhu or actually talk to the beings on Mizar 5.

          • Bob

            Not in disagreement with you about that.

      • indie8million

        To each his own ze moo. That’s where your journey took you. There are old, old schools of thought about this and my study of these (and my feelings about these subjects prior to Scientology) have lead me somewhere else. It’s ok. If we all ended up in the same place, it would be too crowded. 😉

    • Graham

      “Remote viewing – completely proven, for example” Surely you jest? Dox?

      • Bob

        Both the KGB and CIA did many experiments. Look up Ingo Swann, he was the real deal.

        • Eclipse-girl

          Bob you are in error on this one.

          http://skepdic.com/remotevw.html.

          It had never been demonstrated when there is a skeptical researcher and a magician present

          • Bob

            I’ll check it out. Check on the experiments with Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff.

          • indie8million
            • Eclipse-girl

              Nothing like Remote viewing has ever been demonstrated to skeptics.

              Just because a Phd believes in it does not make it true.
              Just because the CIA wasted a load of taxpayer dollars on it does not make it true.

              As simple as it could be, a person who claim this psychic ability could enter to Mr James Rani’s competion and win 1 million.
              No one has one.

              When people claiming such special abilites are tested, it is useful to have a skilled magician on the panel as they are aware of the tricks of the trade.

              I stand by my statements.
              No One has ever successfully demonstrated remote viewing or any psychic ability.

              It is pseudo science. It is bull shit.

        • Robert Eckert

          Let today be the day the last bit of woo-woo is scrubbed out of your brain. No, Ingo Swann was nothing more than another charlatan.

          • Bob

            Believe what you want. I’ve had way to many first hand experiences to discount these area completely.

            • Artoo45

              And I used to think I was psychic. Then I learned about confirmation bias and grew the fuck up.

            • Bob

              I never had any of those misconceptions. Just saw what I saw. I certainly was sucked in to the mindf–k of clamatology. At the same time I was a pragmatistic and that caused a great deal of cognative dissonance.

            • Stacy

              Bob, we all have misconceptions. It’s why they’re called misconceptions.

              Confirmation bias. You only confirm an incident when it occurs in the manner in which you expect it to occur.

              Example: full moons. Man cops and ER doctors and nurses insist that they have far more accidents, shootings, crazy incidents on nights of the full moon, especially if it falls on a weekend. The simple expedient of checking logs- how many and what type of calls to police; how many and what type of injuries. illness seen in ER- tells us this isn’t true. Not in the slightest.

              But these cops and doctors and nurses continue to swear by the full moon. Why? Because they believe the evidence they THINK they see with their own eyes. Whenever a crazy incident happens on a night with a full moon, they say to themselves, “see? Look what happened on this night of the full moon?” What they don’t keep track of all times in between when full moons happened and they had a perfectly ordinary night.

            • Bob

              Yes, I understand what confirmation bias is. It happens all around us and yes we all participate in it. Regardless of that there are phenomena that is not explained based on our expectations or what we want to believe.

            • Stacy

              True. I just don’t trust my eyes or brain on that stuff. We can fool ourselves easily. I trust to empirical studies. If someone has such abilities, then they should be able to exhibit them, time after time after time under certain conditions in the lab. If there’s no replicability, there’s no abilities. I’ve seen no studies that demonstrate psychic abilities under CONTROLLED conditions that have results better than chance. Therefore I doubt any evidence I may have seen with my own eyes. It’s anecdotal, not empirical.

            • Bob

              Ok. I get where you are coming from. Many of thr brilliant accomplishment from brilliant or exceptional people did not come from a traditional laboratory.

            • Stacy

              🙂 Well, I made my point. I guess we just need to agree to disagree on this stuff. We can just move onto CoS watching and go back to laughing over the “romantic language” scientologists use to describe their 2D’s. 😀

            • Bob

              For sure. We each have our POV and importantly we both do know and agree that Clamotology is a heinous anf criminal organization.

            • Stacy

              We DEFINITELY agree on that!

            • Bob
            • indie8million

              http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html This is just the tip of the iceberg. Respectfully suggest that we can fool our brains by NOT looking also. At the end of the day though, some people believe in spiritual abilities and some don’t. Neither side need to prove their point, really.

            • Stacy

              Umm, since there’s no way to prove a negative, those who claim supernatural powers DO need to prove them, if they want people to believe them.

        • Baby

          Bob.. You are absolutely wrong on this.. as Robert Eckert said.. Ingo was a charlatan and fraud.. Please think about this..

          • Bob

            No thinking. I have some first hand experience with him. And I’m willing to look and any proofs to him being a fraud.

            • Eclipse-girl

              You were conned.

              Charlatans lie.
              Any decent test of special powers should employ an experience magician to prevent such “tricks of the trade”

              I urge you to look up the series BULL SHIT hosted by Penn and Teller.
              I urge you to read old issues of the Skeptical Enquirer

            • Bob

              Saw many of the Penn and Tellers and read some SE issues. And when it comes to the particular subject I knew the people however did not pay too much attention to it. And chose to take it at face value.

          • indie8million

            Just because someone says it’s so doesn’t prove that it’s so, Baby. Bob can do his research and come to his own conclusions. The same holds true for everyone. 🙂

        • Frodis73

          Bob, when I was younger, say preteen maybe, I wanted to believe stuff like this…I am a born skeptic, I tried. I used to think it was cool and fun and would be great if any of it was true…it’s just not. I hope you don’t think we are attacking you…just please look at this stuff a little differently. If people really had these crazy, special abilities that would be *huge* news and it would be everywhere and accepted. Also James Randi would be broke.

          • Bob

            True about James. I’ve seen some really amazing phenomena. That’s just me. I’m am a very skeptical person. And I appreciate your approach to disagreeing with me. And I’m constantly altereding my opinions and beliefs.mthats why I’m here.

            • Donna Cline Sargent

              good for you Bob. I kinda go thru the same on opinions as a Christian.I don’t go to church much cuz I don’t agree alot of what is preached.

            • Bob

              Thanks. I think one can be skeptical and still be an idealist.

            • Frodis73

              That is a healthy approach. As a never in, I value your comments here, and I def want you to stick around.

            • Bob

              Thanks, interchange of opposing points of view on this site are usually very enlightening. When it’s not a troll.

        • Donna Cline Sargent

          remote viewing – Wikipedia – gov. found no proof

          • Bob

            Thanks. Will check out.

        • richelieu jr

          The KGB and the CIA certainly did do many experiments (The Men Who Stare at Goats is an entertaining read on the subject), both believing that the other had some ind of an edge in the subject, buy it turned out to be just one more example of paranoia and wasted tile and resources.

          The Amazing Randi (a truly great man) has had a check ready for anone who can prove any of this hooey for decades now.

          It will never be cashed.

          And if remote viewing existed, what were you Scilon morons doing physically rifling through government documents in the70s? Why not just ‘project yourselves’ over there and do a bit of browsing?

          • Bob

            Remember there were no real OTs then, so they had to do it the hard way. If it was done after GAT II, it could all be done with OT powers. I’m surprised you did not know that?

            • richelieu jr

              In a fight between OT powers and a three-year-old’s fart, i’m going with the toddler.

            • Bob

              I hope you are not taking what I wrote seriously.

            • richelieu jr

              Dude, I think I was the first person in these parts to get you, wasn’t I?
              When you were getting ganged up on? 😉

            • Bob

              Very true. Sometime comments are hard to read. You may have a dryer sense of humor than me.

            • Mymy88

              Ooops, please disreard this post. I put in wrong place.

            • DannyBoy

              Too funny 🙂

      • indie8million

        Hi Graham – http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html Others are available regarding this program. Search remote viewing Swann

        • Graham

          “The psychologists David Marks and Richard Kammann attempted to replicate Targ and Puthoff’s remote viewing experiments. In a series of thirty-five studies, they were unable to replicate the results so investigated the procedure of the original experiments. Marks and Kammann discovered that the notes given to the judges in Targ and Puthoff’s experiments contained clues as to which order they were carried out, such as referring to yesterday’s two targets, or they had the date of the session written at the top of the page. They concluded that these clues were the reason for the experiment’s high hit rates”

          “Examination of the few actual transcripts published by Targ and Puthoff show that just such clues were present. To find out if the unpublished transcripts contained cues, Marks and Kammann wrote to Targ and Puthoff requesting copies. It is almost unheard of for a scientist to refuse to provide his data for independent examination when asked, but Targ and Puthoff consistently refused to allow Marks and Kammann to see copies of the transcripts. Marks and Kammann were, however, able to obtain copies of the transcripts from the judge who used them. The transcripts were found to contain a wealth of cues”
          [Wikipedia entry for Puthoff]

          Targ & Puthoff’s work was long ago discredited. There is no academically validated research indicating that remote viewing works.

    • Bob

      Indie, before I got into Stumpotology I was on a spiritual path that would have led me to Buddhism or something similar. The cult hit at that time and off I went. I have spent considerable time deprogramming and Jons articles have been a huge help. And he is dead on regarding much of his analysis and references.
      Regarding our true spiritual nature and our abilities he can speak only for himself and his own opinions on the matter. I happen to agree with you that there are inherent in many of us unique abilities and skills. Jon very artfully laid out how Hubbard used our inherent experiences, knowledge and belief to suck us all in. To me his criminality is what he did once he had us. I was on the path to destruction although I thought I was on the path being a super being and thank god I found Tony’s blog,
      And Jons dead on regarding losing a sky high purpose which is the key to Hubbards ability to trap us. And for some ex’s the purpose is now to bring down the cult. I have that yes, however I had other purposes that are extremely valid for me and now I can persue those without feeling that they are less than Trappotologies big “save the world” purpose.
      My point is, I agree with you that once we our out we will persue our path whether it be spiritual or atheistic and humanistic. That’s our choice. Jon is brilliant at helping us understand and recover from our brain washing.
      Hopefully, IMHO, us ex’s can maintain our idealism and grow both spiritually and mentally.

      • indie8million

        Ahhh, a friendly voice! haha

        Thanks, Bob. I appreciate that you heard the point that I was trying to make. Sorry you got derailed from the path you were seeking when getting into Scientology. I have realized, since being out, that there were so many opportunities that I walked away from because this or that opportunity would have somehow ‘conflicted’ with Scientology or Scientology’s “PR”. Really stupid. So, in my own way, I can completely relate to what you’re saying about being derailed.

        On the other hand, I don’t know. What doesn’t kill you can make you stronger. I’ve been in some mighty serious situations that some could say would have damaged them permanently. Oh, woe is me. (joke) 😀

        But as much as I hated to admit it, those challenges or conflicts DID actually make me a stronger and smarter person. Scientology did make me smarter – to be able to see BS when it’s staring me in the face, and to know that I do know what I know. When DM said, “It’s been the blind leading the blind,” I literally almost fell off my chair. I didn’t go “Oh yeah, COB! That’s right!”. I thought, ‘What the F is he talking about??” Ron would sh*t a brick if he heard that.

        And yes, what I appreciate about Jon is his intense research into what Ron’s life was, actually, because I want to know the truth about that. I’ve learned a lot and have become calmer, knowing what Jon dug up. Was Ron completely evil? I don’t think so. Did he go nuts, I think so,. unfortunately. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. His own destructive traits ricocheted back at him, IMHO.

        And, you’re right. Hell yeah, I was on the saving the world team. We thought we had the answer, didn’t we? Some of it answered some things and helped some people but it can never be what we hoped it would be, again, unfortunately.

        But like a lot of Indies, I am researching ancient beliefs and practices and finding the original truths that are available and have always been available. There is so much more freedom to learn and grow, not being under the thumb of “You can’t look at ANYTHING else!”

        Haha – did you know that Flag actually declared the book, “The Secret”? ROTFL!!! Talk about being afraid that someone will steal their public. Apparently, if you’re found reading that book, you’re found guilty of associating with a “suppressive person” and can be sent to ethics for a handling. Bwahahaha! Soooo ridiculous.

        Yes, I’d been on the fence for years, seeing injustices on myself and others but always thought that it could be handled from within UNTIL two things happened.

        1) I found that there was no longer any management structure (Watchdog Committee, C/S INts 1 through 7, Flag Bureau, etc.) and
        2) I read Debbie Cook’s letter.

        Then i knew that it was time to jump ship. The rats had taken over and weren’t giving it up to anyone else.

        It’s nice to meet you, Bob. I agree with your hope that we Indies can maintain our idealism and grow from here, with true help from our friends out here. Thanks again for understanding where I was coming from in my post.

        • Bob

          Indie, same to you. We probably crossed paths at done point. I’ve come a long way in a few short years and I’m on a similar path. I know this year will be a banner year for further damaging the corporate churchs reputation and getting more people out.

    • Science Doc

      Science Doc makes an argument from authority and states that there is no evidence of remote viewing whatsoever. Unlike some paranormal claims, this one attracted some DARPA type interest and was subject to testing. No evidence for it. Even more damning is the absence of any possible mechanisms for remote viewing. There is no physics that would support it. Believe what you will about scientology but make a claim about science and you could well be challenged by scientists. It’s the way science works.

      • indie8million

        Hi Science Doc. I love science.

        It’s late and I wanted to chose something short. Here is one thing that I read about remote viewing. There is also information about other aspects of this like DNA resonating on the same wave length while in different rooms or miles away. Fascinating stuff.

        Here’s that link. Would love to discuss it with you. http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

        • Science Doc

          It’s not science if it’s not in the peer reviewed scientific literature. I’m sorry but it’s nonsense.

    • Eclipse-girl

      “The good of what Ron was trying to do in the beginning was to help a person reduce the negative that surrounded them so that the innate goodness and spiritual abilities could expand. (See: BAS 10R – Recognition of the Rightness of the Being)”

      I think you had a huge misunderstanding.
      I do not think Ron every cared about trying to do any good for others.
      He wanted their money and their adoration.

      • indie8million

        I beg to differ. Nothing is ever that black and white. Mike Rinder has talked about that point on his blog. That he knew the man personally and that Hubbard actually did have a purpose to help people. I have talked with others who closely interacted with him and they tell me the same thing and speak highly of him.

        Ron did, as time went on, tip to the other end of the spectrum. He did some real assholish things. Those things affected a lot of people very, very badly and never should have been done. But to say he was totally evil and NEVER wanted to help anyone, well, that was my original point with Mr. Atack’s view. Too black and white.

        Did you read the reference? Did you actually know the human being so that you could make that judgement? I’m not meaning to be hostile nor defensive. Just saying that, if all this was said about a person who was still living, I’d endeavor to hear that person’s side of the story. I think you would, too, if it were anyone else.

        http://www.xenu.net/archive/SuperPower/Super%20Power-1.pdf (Go to the link and press ctrl+f and enter Recognition into the field. You’ll find the reference on the third click down)

        • Eclipse-girl

          I am sorry but Ron also had a history of going after anyone who disagreed with him or tuned on him.

          Dr Winter, the doctor who wrote the intro to the first edition of Dianetics, lost favor.
          David Mayo lost favor.
          John McMaster lost favor.

          Why was Ron so wrong about all women wanting to abort their children?
          Why did Ron kidnap his child, Alexis and taker her to Cuba?
          Why did Ron state he never had a second wife?
          Why did Ron lock children (under 12 yrs of age, some as young as 5 or 6) in the chain locker of the Apollo?
          Why did Ron put the moves on Yvonne Gillham Jentsch?
          Why did Ron order the crimes that were committed against Paulette Cooper?

          Ron want adoration and money.
          I will stick by that statement.
          Ron was a liar and a conman.
          I will grant you Ron had charisma and knew how to use it. That does not mean he was sincere or honest when he was speaking.

          He lacked empathy and compassion unless you were a sycophant, and even then you could could endure punishment on his whim.

    • Baby

      ” but it’s well known that most psychologists/psychiatrists get into that business to solve their own disabilities.”
      ……………………………..

      I worked in mental health for 30 years. I have worked with hundreds of psychologists/psychiatrists. I do not support your statement.

      Other than Scientology where did you get your facts?

      • indie8million

        Hi Baby – If you haven’t found that to be true, I respect your research. As I responded earlier, my point was that often times people get into the healing arts to understand themselves better. It wasn’t meant as an attack on psychology/psychiatry – I have known chiropractors who (besides wanting to make a good living) had some physical ailment that they wanted to understand better by getting their doctorate, for example. I think we all got into Scientology originally because we wanted to understand ourselves and others better. Too bad it changed mid-stream, as some of us see it.

        Thanks for your civil question/statement. I’m always willing to hear the other side of the story if someone feels I missed something. That’s why I’m out, because I’m willing to see and happy to discuss. How else can I or anyone else learn anything if they aren’t willing to view new information? 🙂

    • Robert Eckert

      “Remote viewing – completely proven, for example” Uh… no.

      “let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water” There is no baby in there. And it’s not bath water either.

      • einsteinonthebeach

        “There is no baby in there.” Precisely. And even if there was, it would not be worth the ebola exposure to look for it. LRH is toxic to the core.

      • cathy from encino

        No baby, no bath. The water is from a different bathroom fixture.

      • richelieu jr

        Here’s the real tell, folks:

        “..there are other general assumptions that he makes that, to me, are not true.”

        Listen- What’s true is not only wht is true for you. There exists a scientific method and amanner for separating fact from fiction, reality fro fantasy.

        The fact that stupid ideas and con-men existed bfore Hubbard is no news– The only remotely interesting ideas in Scinetologyw ere s tolen from other, better, works and writers. Nor is it proof that it was true.

        The Bible says the sun stopped in the middle of the sky. We know this is impossible and would have resulted in the violent destruction of the Earth as we know it. We know the Van Allen Belt is not ‘warm’ and there are no locomotives on Venus.

        People do not die of pneumonia whne they hear about that OTII nonsense for the first timeor the SOuth Park boys wojjldbe inprison for Genocide.

        We do know, however, how to hyppnotize someone, sell them pseudo-scinetific-counding nonsense, and convince them they’re getting the dela of a lifetime.

        Fool me once,and all that.

        however, to wake up from the scam, realize the organization is corrupt and base don lies, and then go out and try and recreate it based on your belief that these things are ‘proven’? That, as my dear old Grandma woulds say is ‘Fool me twice, shame on me’, and shame on you and the rest of the “Indies”. You are selling diluted poison for a cheaper price to recovering addictsand convincing yourself it is for the greater good.

        I can kind of convince myself to give the beefit of the doubt to Scilons and exes and consider them to be intelligent people unfairly duped by a master con-man (this is because I bow to the evidence of the intelligence, reasoning and pure good will and bonhomie I find daily in these people). I cannot convince myself that anyone who would get a wake-up call,, quite the church and then start building their own prison out of the same, crappy primary materials is

        The best argument around her eus it serves as a decompression chamber for people to slolwy wokr their ay out of the mind-fuck they’ve been helping Hubbard do on themselves for however many years.

        OK, maybe. But you’d do better to listen to Jefferson or Jon Atack or Marc Headley or Tory Magoo or THDNE or I dunno, Charles Manson who said he found Scientology too nuts for him… Seriously man, try another philosophy, since you seem to have alist f them. Try using Occam’s Razor, or just a bit of common sense (the first victim of Scientology indoctrination?)

        HOw about ay one of ht eones (basicallye very otehr one,e ver)where you cana ccess all the information (“scriptures”) openly and for free,and you don’t have to buy a membership or special training or pay some to listen t you and play ‘Junior Lie-Detector’

        Stat, for example, by actually trying to find a generally acknowledged, scientifically proven case of ‘Remote Viewing’.

        If you can, then hey, congrats! Go tell the person and the split the huge reward the Amazing Randi has been offering for the last half-century….

        … but the, once he has clearly proven that your info was wrong, sit down and take a long, hard look at your life and the sort of reasoning and acceptance of ‘facts’ that has gotten you there.. You are still alive, and each moment that passes is another chance to wake up, stop digging the hole and c ertinalys tope ncouragin others to follow your lead. IT is base dni misinformation, disonformation, myth and not only misunderstood words, but intentionally misused ones, ans misunderstood concepts of myth, religion, physics, science, human behaviour..

        The way out is no the way in. Just drop it all like the rancid, hot sebaceous cyst-like hot potato that it is and try something, ANYTHING else. Become a Brony, a furry, one of those wackos htat marries a bridge or a a person serving consecutive life-sentences for murder…. Trekkies are nice. So are Psychiatrists (GASP!) HEll, become a Republican, for all I care.

        Anything is better than being an “Indie” (I think they should be called “Undies’ because they’re still Under the nefarious influence of Hubbard and the delusion that that there can be any good salvaged from the utter wreck and slow-motion implosion of the shell-game and criminal enterprise that has been Scientology from before Hubbard had even invented the word..

        Better to still be silply Scilon– Even regular Scientologists have the excuse of not having heard the truth.

    • Panopea Abrupta

      “Yes, he had his own demons and out-ethics but it’s well known that most psychologists/psychiatrists get into that business to solve their own disabilities. I imagine that Ron was the same.”

      How dare you.

      My spouse is a responsible professional ethical professor of psychology, published in some of the most distinguished journals, with Ivy League degree.
      Note the words I used.

      Hubbard was none of them unless you want me to use a different definition, a $cientological trait.
      – responsible only for misery
      -professional only at fraud
      -ethical – for all my facility with language, I fail to find a way to associate him with the concept.
      As for his publications in peer-reviewed journals or his degrees , pshaw!

      Your ignorance of psychology and psychiatry is paralleled only by your ridiculous statement about remote-viewing.

      • Baby

        Fuckin A Pan.. That really pushed my buttons.

      • Frodis73

        Thank you! I was livid reading that…had to do something else because this whole post got to me, but you nailed this. What BS Indi believes.

        • noseinabk

          At least he took some time out from his navel gazing to read and post here. 😛

          • Frodis73

            True, I hope he reads all the replies. 🙂

            • indie8million

              I have and have even responded to some.

        • indie8million

          Thank you Frodis73. You have a right to think I believe in BS. You have a right to be livid. Thank God we live in a free country where I can say what I think and you can think it’s BS.

      • Artoo45

        Thanks for saying that. My head was about to explode in a Cronenbergian sort of way.

        • Frodis73

          Snickersnort.

        • indie8million

          Ooops. Sorry about that, Artoo45. I have some duct tape in case you need it. 😉

      • Stacy

        Thanks for addressing this Pan. I know many psychologists (but not a single psychiatrist- weird), and not ONE SINGLE one of them got into psychology to fix their own problems. The vast majority of them got into psychology to either conduct research or to counsel others because of a sincere desire to help people.

      • indie8million

        Panopea – You know that that wasn’t directed personally at you or your husband so why become offended? I’m sure your husband is kind and caring or he wouldn’t have wanted to help people in the first. place.

        I’ve had the honor of people saying to me,”You’re not like any Scientologist I’ve ever met” because I’ve never been a robot who believes everything I’m told, so please don’t feel that I’m blindly flailing at psychiatry/psychology by my comment. The point I was trying to convey is that people, in general, very often want to learn healing arts so that they can heal themselves first.

        Ron obviously thought that he had some mental problems or he wouldn’t have pleaded with the Veterans Administration to get some psychological help. See: http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/beg.htm

        Again, demonizing a human being (yes, he was a human being who lived and breathed, much like you and I do – as distasteful as that may seem to you) is too easy. Regardless of what you think of his actions or his character (and you have every right to your opinion), I put forward the possibility that HUbbard may have been more complex than a 2 dimensional mad man. You should know that since you are so acquainted with the mental healing arts.

        Also, your act of dismissing me as being ignorant and ridiculous without even knowing me and researching my points further, well, who is ignorant of whom?

        You’re the hostile one, not me. That should really piss you off.

    • pluvo

      Here Ron’s “Truth Rundown”. This is not only being “out-ethics” and “having some demons” but is some real evil stuff.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjbt9gVFIX8

    • Techie

      Indie8, I admire your courage at making this comment on this site. It must mean a lot to you.Consider this for example – in Genesis 19:24 it says that two cities were destroyed by fire. Hubbard used to say it was a nuclear holocaust, in the bible it is described as fire from the sky. There is no archeological evidence of this event, but there is an area in the ancient middle east where the rocks look like they were burned. It is just a geological phenomenon, nothing to do with fire or nuclear fission. So what happened here? The ancient writers of the Bible knew of historical events that happened so long before they were written that all that was known was simply legend. And they also could observe rocks in an area that seem to have been burned. To explain it, and to make the theological point that it is dangerous to disobey God and do evil, they invented a story. It is a true story in that it shows that there is danger in doing evil. It is not scientifically accurate, or historically correct, or factual. People have been trying to explain phenomena like the weather, tides, the stars and so on as long as there have been people. Early on, very little was known so all phenomena were explained by the actions of the gods. Little by little real explanations have been found for most of the phenomena we see each day. But some remain unexplained. Wherever there is an unexplainable phenomenon it seems there is someone willing to pretend to explain it. Not because they really know, but because they know that the unexplained makes people unsure and open to suggestion. So the unexplained, ghosties and beasties and things that go boomp in the night, are prime territory for the flacks, con men and spiritual hucksters. Scientology is a dangerous cult. Scroll down or search to the excellent visit below by Rick Ross. There is no evidence that Ron knew any more about the spiritual than your local Baptist Minister does. He just claimed to know in order to fool people. It is not wise to look for scientific information in the Bible. The Bible is not a science book. And it is not wise to look for God in a science book. By definition, science does not include things that cannot be measured scientifically. There are things we can be pretty certain of, that have been tested and found to be consistently true. There are others that we don’t know and may never know. There is a lot of room for different ideas and thoughts about the things we don’t know. I suggest that we respect each others opinions and faiths, and reserve our condemnation for those that prey on the innocent using false knowledge.

      • indie8million

        Hi Techie. Thank you for granting me beingness and allowing me my own thoughts and experience on the matter while giving me more information and your viewpoint.

        I do understand your point about people making up stories to explain mysteries. The best superstitions were born out of this. And yes, if you’ve ever seen “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”, that’s a perfect example of someone knowing the truth but keeping others in the dark so as to appear “magic”. Give’s magic a bad name, it does. haha

        I agree that $cientology is a dangerous cult. No doubt about it now.

        There was always Ron’s paranoia and Fair Gaming, etc. which was never something I agreed with. Ever, in anyway. But what is worse now (if it can be worse) is that Little Hitler has pointed the cannons at his own people. Now “everybody” is the enemy. Fleece them, steal from them and don’t give them anything in return. Some of us feel that we used to get something in return and it’s not really up to someone else to say that we, they, whomever, didn’t get gains that they say they did. That’s what I’m attempting to say.

        I don’t know if the Bible is scientific but it’s certainly historic. We just have to read through the misunderstandings that they had in their day. Ron isn’t the only person to propose that there was some type of blast. As they say on History2, “Ancient alien theorists believe…” that there were ETs who used ET firepower on the earth in their wars. How do I know? I wasn’t there – I don’t think. LOL.

        I was just making a point that people, for thousands of years have experienced ‘super natural’ or ‘super spiritual’ abilities and have believed them to be true. Ron wasn’t the first. In their own way, over time, people have used spiritual language and spiritual groups to search for those answers.

        You and I have a right, since we live in this country (for now anyway) to interpret those things as we each see fit. And I will defend to the death your right to do so.

        One thing I’ve seen in some of these forums is a polarization of opinion so that either a person is a “Ron hater” or a “Kool Aid drinker”. I’m not saying that you are because you’ve given me your opinion and given me my space to see what I see on my own terms.

        But when people start saying “You believe the way I believe or you’re just an idiot,” isn’t that doing the same thing that the cult is doing?

        Just like in discussing politics, I personally believe that more gets accomplished by a welcoming exchange of ideas rather than fire fights about who’s right or wrong. Maybe we all can learn something we didn’t know before, on both sides of the argument.

        Thanks again.

        • grundoon

          “More gets accomplished by a welcoming exchange of ideas rather than fire
          fights about who’s right or wrong. Maybe we all can learn something we
          didn’t know before, on both sides of the argument.”

          +1

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      Hi, Indie. I know we are on the same side but there are some differences in the way we look at things.

      I think you assume too much. I don’t know the etceteras you mention in paragraph two, and I am not that knowledgeable on Buddhism, The Vedas and Christianity. But, I don’t think Christians see themselves as god-like and certainly ESP, out of body experiences and hands on healing are not central to Christianity. The concepts are central to Scientology’s OT levels. I don’t believe that remote viewing is completely proven. In fact, I don’t believe it has been proven in any way whatsoever. This is not because of personal ignorance. I’ve been keeping my eyes open. I believe that superpowers are non-occurring in everyone and I will continue to believe that until proven otherwise.

      I think L.Ron was using the spiritual feelings that people have to milk them for as much as possible. Before that he was using people’s desire for control in their lives to milk them for as much as possible. I don’t believe the book Dianetics has the word “soul” in it. When he lost control of the “science of the mind” he came up with Scientology so that he could continue the scam and do it tax free at that, and in a way where he could call people bigots if they accused him of being a scam artist.

      I wouldn’t equivocate L.Ron’s motives with psychiatrists motives. In Canada, anyway, psychiatry is the lowest paying specialty. A scientologist told me that psychiatrists got into psychiatry to solve their own problems. My experience with psychiatrists is very limited. I am sure there are many reasons for going into psychiatry. I am sure that Hubbard invented Scientology for the money, potential fame and to control.

      I think to say that “Ron had his own problems” is a huge understatement. How about “L.Ron was an enormously disturbed individual who hurt hundreds of thousands of individuals and helped very few”.

      I have many friends and loved ones who believe in the soul and in God, though I don’t agree with them. All I want is to not feel out of line when I assert my own lack of belief. When someone says, “I don’t care what church you go to as long as you go,” I want him to know that I am still a good person even though I don’t go. I want people to know that there are fewer divorces among atheists and fewer atheists in jail. I want them to know that between 88% and 92% of Americans would vote for a black, hispanic, woman or homosexual, all other things being equal. I want them to know that only about 45% would vote for an atheist and I want them to think about that. I want them to know that my wife, once a nun, had a death bed conversion to atheism because they should understand that not believing in God can be comforting too.

      I think Jon is usually sensible. I am sure that he does not want to become the guru of the opposition. And all of us who have been told to “think for ourselves” while following a guru, should, at long last, be more able to judge for ourselves and not accept information from another person without putting it through the filter of our own experiences.

      • Stacy

        Well said, Mighty Korgo. Hear, hear!

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      Well, it is my consideration that your sentence, “but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water and/or pin all
      humans down to only animated clay with a one-lifetime sentence.” opens the door for lots of chicanery and scams — just like scientology for example.

      I spent a lot of my early years as an agnostic, and then as a scientologist, which is really a type of spiritualism. Now I am an atheist, and do not believe in any supernatural concepts, be it god or gods, souls, spirits, thetans, clears, OTs, heaven, hell, etc. Until someone can objectively and reliably prove the existence of any of the above supernatual hocus pocus, I don’t buy it.

      I have my own theory of consciousness simply being a result of a functioning brain and nervous system. It has explained an awful lot of thought, behavior and experiences and so far, I have not come across one counter-example that would disprove it.

    • Captain Howdy

      Spiritually is a weasel word for the supernatural and paranormal. Magical thinking by any other name…

    • einsteinonthebeach

      Is this “Still Keyed Out”?

      • stillgrace2

        Nothin’ like naming the elephant in the room! Hah! Well, good for you … I guess. I will admit to similarities in tone and content.

      • grundoon

        No.

    • madame duran

      The good of what Ron was trying to do in the beginning was to help a person reduce the negative that surrounded them so that the innate goodness and spiritual abilities could expand.

      Sounds nice. So why did Hubbard charge a monetary fee for his spiritual “help”? That doesn’t come across as being charitable or divinely good. Are you of the view that religion/spirituality should NOT be freely available to all?

      Yeah, yeah, Ron wanted to make money too but that was part of his journey.

      No, it wasn’t part of his journey…making money was the journey’s ENTIRE PURPOSE (according to him). There’s a Hubbard quote to support that. Google it.
      You make it seem like Hubbard was just a simple guy with a good idea and a few shortcomings (and that Miscavige is the one who screwed things up royally). History tells a completely different story to what you would like to assume about Hubbard. If you want to believe that humans have innate superhuman, god-like powers…you’re entitled to your opinion. However, I caution you with glossing over Hubbard’s malevolent legacy and reducing it to mere “imperfections”. He had demons alright…but he didn’t use Scientology in order to confront them. It codified all the paranoia, the maliciousness and the mental warping that he already possessed. Hubbard CHOSE to initiate disconnection, “Fair Game”, Dead Agenting, “Black Dianetics”, and the RPF. When you THINK–not just feel–of the “true and good about people”, are the aforementioned activities the type of things that come to mind? Lying, stealing, revenge, division, oppression, humiliation? I don’t see how anything Hubbard did was defensible. I think you’re old enough to know that a leader’s words, on their own, aren’t enough; what they do (actions) and the consequence of how they lived (their “fruits”) matter a whole lot more. Hubbard did not practice what he preached. His life was a complete contrast to the fanciful image he promoted of an “enlightened” being. Simply put, he was a fraud.
      I have no problem with people questioning Atack’s assumptions but before you do so, I’d highly recommend that you refrain from making assumptions yourself then posting them as facts instead of as beliefs.

      • indie8million

        Respectfully, Madame Duran, I have seen people who were helped by using the real Scientology, not what is being passed off for Scientology now.

        Why did he charge a fee? Why does Esther Hicks charge for her seminars? Don’t get me wrong. I think the Law of Attraction is super valid and that people can benefit from knowing about that. I don’t fault her for charging to talk to people. Her time is worth money. She has to travel and book rooms. Her information/wisdom is considered valuable by her “followers” so they don’t mind paying.

        Why would it be any different for Hubbard? NOW, having said that, I’m not newly out. I’ve been watching this situation for over 30 years. YES, as time went on, I think that the power and money became all consuming and worse begat worse.

        And mentally, worse became worse. I’ve read everything. It was crazy, crazy the closer to the end it got.

        Yes, he did choose to initiate disconnection. Absolutely. HOWEVER, how it’s used today is not how it was used in 1977 or 1985 or even 1993. They actually had a committee of evidence to declare someone and evidence was actually looked at. Today, declaring someone has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are “anti-social” or not. Disconnection was rarely necessary back then.

        Now you’re declared and asked to disconnect if someone sneezes sideways.

        Yes, about ’65, Ron went on a tear with Fair Game and all that. Terrible stuff and I agree. Something happened around that time that turned very dark. A lot of people were hurt and that never should have happened. Jon Atack included.

        It’s not just a leader’s words. I know plenty of people who were on the ship with him and who met and dealt with him. One friend of mine told me that he apologized for overboarding her. What that’s worth to some, I don’t know. I’m not someone waving a “rah-rah” flag for Ron because he did a lot of stupid stuff. But the people who knew him, cared about him. I can’t get on the demonizing band wagon because I am NOT just getting my information off the internet.

        There are three sides to every story – his side, her side and the truth. Same applies here.

        I would say that my “facts” aren’t from assumptions but, rather, my own observations of nearly 40 years in and 40 years of accumulated, actual experience.

        • madame duran

          I have seen people who were helped by using the real Scientology, not what is being passed off for Scientology now.

          The “real” Scientology? Not sure how you define that. Do you mean the Scientology back when the state of Clear was the highest spiritual level or when OT VIII took over that spot? The Scientology where “Fair Game” was evoked or the Scientology era when Fair Game was superficially “cancelled”? Do you refer only to the time when Scientology was originally known as “Dianetics” or to anytime while Hubbard was alive? L. Ron changed, added and contradicted so many of his policies that it’s hard to know what the “real” Scientology is.

          Why did he charge a fee? Why does Esther Hicks charge for her seminars? Don’t get me wrong. I think the Law of Attraction is super valid and that people can benefit from knowing about that. I don’t fault her for charging to talk to people. Her time is worth money. She has to travel and book rooms. Her information/wisdom is considered valuable by her “followers” so they don’t mind paying.

          You failed to address my question: are you of the opinion that religion/spirituality should NOT be made freely available to all? Last time I checked, “Esther Hicks” wasn’t listed anywhere as a religion or spiritual movement. I’ll be upfront in saying that I’m not fond of people like Ms. Hicks who is a purveyor of “The Secret”/Law of Attraction and other New Agey stuff. She, like Hubbard, treat spiritual knowledge like a business commodity…a means by which to generate a personal income. Jesus, Mohammed, Moses and Buddha managed to live their lives and get their message across just fine without resorting to charging a fee for their followers so I naturally wondered why that part was necessary for Hubbard.

          I’ve been watching this situation for over 30 years. YES, as time went on, I think that the power and money became all consuming and worse begat worse.

          And mentally, worse became worse. I’ve read everything. It was crazy, crazy the closer to the end it got.

          When you say things started to get worse and worse and when power and money became all consuming, are you referring towards the latter years of Hubbard’s life or do you exclusively mean the Miscavige era? Please clarify.

          Yes, he did choose to initiate disconnection. Absolutely. HOWEVER, how it’s used today is not how it was used in 1977 or 1985 or even 1993. They actually had a committee of evidence to declare someone and evidence was actually looked at. Today, declaring someone has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are “anti-social” or not. Disconnection was rarely necessary back then.

          Now you’re declared and asked to disconnect if someone sneezes sideways.

          The painful and divisive nature of disconnection is the same back then as now, regardless of whether there’s a comm ev or not (especially when family/marital relationships are involved). Committees of evidence, like the introductory personality/stress tests, are pure window dressing; they always reach the same, one-note, pre-judged conclusion. It has nothing to do with factual evidence or fairness and everything to do with finding the who or what to blame. I have yet to hear of one case where a comm ev’ed person was completely exonerated, let alone free of all future suspicion. Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t comm evs internally convened for Scientologists only? Do non-Scientologists participate in them? I’m thinking not. So if you are, let’s say, a Scientologist’s parent or sibling and you criticize the cult, you don’t even have the benefit of defending yourself through the comm ev process. You are either “handled” or disconnection is immediate.

          When Jon Atack left Scientology back in 1983/84, he was declared without any comm ev taking place. He left specifically because a dear friend of his was abruptly declared (read about it at this link: http://tonyortega.org/2013/07/13/leaving-scientology-jon-atack-navigates-the-labyrinth-of-paranoia/). Hubbard was still alive at this time so the notion that disconnection back in the early 80s was totally different than the present is bogus.

          Yes, about ’65, Ron went on a tear with Fair Game and all that. Terrible stuff and I agree. Something happened around that time that turned very dark. A lot of people were hurt and that never should have happened. Jon Atack included.

          Right. “Fair Game and all that” never should have happened…but it did. Repeatedly. By executive order. Yet your response is to believe that Hubbard shouldn’t be demonized for it? What…they were just a bunch of temporary “mistakes” in judgment? Okaaaayyyy then.

          I know plenty of people who were on the ship with him and who met and dealt with him. One friend of mine told me that he apologized for overboarding her.

          Ask yourself: why would any sane person want to overboard someone as punishment in the first place? Ask yourself another question: was that lady the last or only person ever to be overboarded in Scientology?

          One little anecdote (based on hearsay from a friend, not YOUR OWN experience) of Hubbard apologizing doesn’t erase all the insanity he perpetuated. As far as I know, Hubbard didn’t apologize to any of his wives for the hell he put them through. He didn’t apologize to the frightened child he confined in the chain locker aboard the Apollo ship. He didn’t apologize for creating Fair Game, disconnection, overboarding or many other toxic polices and practices. He didn’t apologize for breaking the law, deceiving people nor for scamming them blind of their money. His words–be they in the form of an honour code or apologies–mean NOTHING when his life consistently bears insidious, malicious fruit.

          I’m not someone waving a “rah-rah” flag for Ron because he did a lot of stupid stuff.

          Really? You have an odd, odd way of showing it.

          But the people who knew him, cared about him.

          Too bad he didn’t feel the same way about them, even towards his most loyal followers.

          I can’t get on the demonizing band wagon because I am NOT just getting my information off the internet.

          Wait…so because information is posted on the internet, it’s inherently false? I’m not saying that BS doesn’t exist online but there are REAL, LIVE PEOPLE who were extensively involved with Scientology (for as long as you or even longer) who have shared numerous documents to back up their personal stories. The “Scientology hurts” column far outweighs the “Scientology helps” one no matter how you look at it.

          I would say that my “facts” aren’t from assumptions but, rather, my own observations of nearly 40 years in and 40 years of accumulated, actual experience.

          Well if your “facts” are based on the premise of “what’s true for you is true for you” instead of objectivity, I’m going to question them.

          • Eclipse-girl

            “Wild Applause”

            Thank you for writing this.

            • madame duran

              I’m quite tired of the Scieno indie position of “Hubbard wasn’t really all that bad” as if he was some poorly misunderstood chap. The fence-sitting act of acknowledging some of his abuses or stupidity yet wanting to defend his name or the purity of the “tech” is extremely irritating. It’s a cognitive disconnect. What I find puzzling is that these same indies would not look past a single one of Miscavige’s faults, real or perceived. Everything that Miscavige is and does is one-dimensionally, thoroughly, completely “bad”–even the way he looks and talks. No amount of acquired real estate he gains for the cult nor snazzy, hip commercials will diminish his brutality (and rightfully so). So where’s the distinction between the two men?
              I liken it to the “old school” mafia/gangs versus the “new school” versions. Under the old bosses, a target would first get a “gentle” warning that they need to stop exposing the criminal organization before something worse would unfold (e.g. a broken window, a few broken knuckles and bruises, a special “visit”). The newer breed of don’t bother with any of those formalities; they’d just shoot you dead in a drive-by under broad daylight (and not only you, the target, but also your family, friends, pet dog, the innocent bystander who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.). Scieno Indies are the ones who choose to lament the lack of “decorum” in present-day mafia dealings and would badmouth the young’uns for ruining the old school image of secrecy and orderly efficiency. I’d rather be honest with myself and recognize the mafia organization for what it is–a dangerous, corrupt, criminal entity that needs to be eradicated. Scientology = Mafia.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Indie 8 million got to me too.
              I responded to Indie and Bob this morning.

              The woo is so strong with them. It is frightening.

              I think they only appear on Atack – Saturdays.
              They do not like the way Jon Atack educates us.

    • Eileen

      Remote viewing completely unproven. There is no baby in the bath water, there is no bath water. Feel completely free to throw it all out with the trash.

      • indie8million

        Hi Eileen (and to all of you who responded). I’m happy to read all of your responses and to discuss. Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong in these kinds of conversations. It’s all relative to one’s own experiences and education. I’m happy to hear your viewpoints and respect them as I’m sure you will with mine.

        Regarding the remote viewing, Eileen, here is one thing that I’ve read about government experiments. Lot’s more like this available but I chose a short one from a Phd.

        http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

        • einsteinonthebeach

          Wait… is it “Vinay”?

          • Captain Howdy

            You may be on to something.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              He posted a link to his original website a year or more ago here, but there are some stylistic similarities with this most recent “biomind” link

            • Captain Howdy

              The politeness is a give away.

            • stillgrace2

              Best Behavior aBounds.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              I’ll see if i can dig up the link

            • einsteinonthebeach

              Here:

              http://vinaire.me/about-us/

              {caution… quantum mechanics may have been abused in this linked website}

        • Captain Howdy

          Harold Puthoff is/was a scientologist and he also let himself get fooled by admitted fraud Uri Geller..NEXT!

        • einsteinonthebeach

          “Nobody is 100% right or 100% wrong in these kinds of conversations”

          Except if you’re talking about remote viewing. Then you are 100% wrong. Kind of like LRH taking a stroll on the Van Allen Belt.

        • Eileen

          Indie, your courteous reply to my flippant post prompts me to offer a better response.
          First, my credentials to look at the document you sent. I am a PhD researcher and professor.
          The first step in reviewing any research report is to examine our own attitude for evidence of bias. I (like you, I suspect) would like remote viewing to be real. What an interesting and exciting development that would be! So, we proceed with caution to the evidence.
          In this case the evidence does not consist of any “gold standard” studies, or even the level of evidence that would be seen in clinical trials. The evidence might best be described as pilot studies, done as funding permitted. These are purely descriptive studies with no controls and no description of the number of trials needed to get the results described. As I am sure you know, with sufficient attempts almost any desired result can be achieved at least once. If a person makes 1000 predictions 1 of them is likely to be correct.
          So, in all fairness the term scientific cannot be applied to any of the reports you attached here.
          Personally I hope to see a time when science can document phenomenon that right now are purely speculative, but until then we accept these reports as interesting anecdotes, no more. Eileen

  • Panopea Abrupta

    Jon’s lucidity and peerless status as critic and eviscerator of the Hubbardites,
    an obscure dualistic pseudo-scientific cult and full time criminal enterprise that briefly flourished,
    chiefly in the U.S., and is now in it’s death-throes, tends to attract OSA and their minions.
    I thought I might write a little ditty to welcome them:

    Ode to A Troll

    An emaciated emissary who comes from the Shrimp Pimp?
    It’s easy to tell, you all write with a limp.
    Why follow Dave, the miserable chimp?

    I do not like green regs or spam, I do not like them, Clam-I-Am.
    You will end up an also-ran, a sad and daft deluded clam.
    Get help, just run – your cult’s a scam.
    Take bus or train, a plane or a tram,
    Just distance yourself from that awful sham.

    • Bob

      Lol, please do not insult chimps.

      • Captain Howdy

        ‘Human beings are chimpanzees who get crazy drunk on power.” – Kurt Vonnegut

        • Bob

          I always liked Kurts work.

    • Ella Raitch

      Clam-I-am….snort

  • Truthiwant

    When I plucked up the courage to look on the internet to find out the truth about Scientology, one of the first sites I came across was the ex-Scientologists Message Board and having clicked on the site for the first time, I thought it was very strange that there was such a thing as an ex-Scientologist. This really hit me hard and I was actually quite shocked that there was a whole group of people who had actually left Scientology. Up until that time, not only had I never met an ex-Scientologist but I didn’t even know that there was such a thing!

    This actually made me think that not only was it OK to have doubts about Scientology, but it was also perfectly OK to leave the organization.

    One of the first stories I read was Michael Pattinson’s experiences in Scientology. At the time, I couldn’t believe I was reading certain things.

    Anyway, the point of my post is to say that, for me, it only needed a few negative but true stories, written by ex-Scientologists, to leave Scientology for good and also realize what a dupe I had been to believe in a person like Hubbard. That bit about feeling a dupe, however, is a hard one to swallow.

    • Bob

      It’s part of our personal journey we have in common.

    • Baby

      Wow Truth.. I realize that it is a tight bubble inside.. But it didn’t dawn on me that one wouldn’t know when someone had blown..but of course she/he wouldn’t..

      Like in a normal workplace and I worked with Linda everyday .. and she wasn’t around anymore..I would say, ” Heh everyone where did Linda go? Is she sick..etc..” but I know it’s not like that in Scienloonegy.

      So fuckin glad you are out and you were brave enough to go to the net! Wow what an eyeopening that was..

      • Tracy Schmitz

        good post! one would think especially the celebs when they stop and pause when they don’t see around anymore and realize “huh, i wonder where ALL THOSE COUNTLESS high ranking officials, office personnel who WERE ALL THERE BEFORE ME! have left, not to mention the spokespersons too? not to mention hubbard’s and miscavige’s family members! not to mention other celebs!.. like i said how could they NOT KNOW since they don’t see them anymore! what they think it’s just like some club one up and quits?! of course they have been told ALL THESE PEOPLE WERE BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL AND LIARS! ALL OF THEM? REALLY?!

        • Baby

          We are on the same page Tracy.. Absolutely agree.. I have always been inquisitive

          ( Nosey) Even as a child I asked so many questions. Always Why Why Why.. ?

          Used to drive my teachers crazy.. ” But Mr. Curtis Why did you use X=7.. Why can’t you use any alphabet letter? ” Because I used X..” But Why? I did this all through Algebra..hahhaa

          The longer the year went on the more greyer his hair became..

          • Stacy

            Lol, that sounds like me as child…

            • Baby

              I had a Professor in college who gave me $5 to keep my mouth shut during his lecture..

              It killed me, but I collected..haha

            • Stacy

              I got somewhat quieter as I got older, mainly because I learned that most people couldn’t answer my interminable questions. I found books. 🙂
              But yes, there are many students and professors who would’ve been very glad to have me shut up in class! 😀

            • Frodis73

              ^This! Books saved me…in so many ways.

            • stillgrace2

              I know what you mean. Me, too.

            • Stacy

              Me too!

            • Baby Mcgee

              Yep and I live on google today..ooops Hearsay

          • Frodis73

            That was me too…especially the whole algebra thing, lol!
            I was about 7 when my grandma flew to FL…I told her to look for god in the clouds…first thing I asked her when she came home was if she saw him. To her credit she said no and didn’t lay some story on me (to the horror of grandpa who was a proper church going Methodist).

            • Baby

              I asked my husband last month if a diet coke was flat does it still have caffeine in it?

              He said, ” Don’t ever repeat to anyone that you asked that! hahaha He was serious

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I just whacked my head on my desk.
              Tell…xxxxxx, that I feel his pain.

              BTW….I was digging thru some stuff today and do you remember those big white envelopes you gave me????
              I Found a whole stack of your “VW artwork” inside them. 😉

            • Baby

              hahahha..

              Cool.. They are yours..
              xo

        • Graham

          As a never-in I get the impression that Scientologists are used to people disappearing at regular intervals and probably get told they’ve been posted elsewhere. Also I think there’s something about not talking about your case (right terminology?) and not asking other people to talk about theirs, which presumably inhibits enquiries as to where Joan or John have disappeared and why. Just my guess.

          • Techie

            At the Gold Base it was a bit more insidious. I don’t know about public, probably they just brush it off. But at Gold, the rumors of anyone blowing flew around like a wildfire. Things were always going wrong, and the place is in a constant state of emergency from all the details that get neglected in the rush, that later return to bite. So if anybody leaves, they are a great excuse for anything that goes sideways. Boiler blew up because it rusted out – who was the last one to use hot water? Oh that was Fred who blew last week! What a saboteur! No money for food? Wasn’t Fred the one who was getting cancer treatments paid for by the organization? What a leech that old Fred was! Glad he’s gone, now we can really start to get something done. As a technician I am sure I was blamed for whole truckloads of broken equipment after I left.

            • Dolly Jones

              I knew someone here must be responsible for my browser crashing earlier. Got ya!

            • Baby Mcgee

              Techie.. See that is EXACTLY what I pictured.. EXACTLY..

              Interesting thoughts between Public and those inside.. fascinating ..

            • BFM

              Exactly right techie. Once you blew/routed out your ex buddies will start to blame you for every little thing that went wrong when you were there with them.

              What a perverted system.

      • Truthiwant

        If you think about it, how would I know about any ex-Scientologists?

        My life didn’t really revolve around Scientology. I was a public and only occasionally went to the Org. At the beginning I didn’t have internet and even after I did have it, I didn’t look at any negative Scientology sites.

        It’s true, my daughter left the Sea Org, but she seemed to support Scientology after she had left, so I didn’t consider her as an ex-Scientologist.

        There was a French girl in Saint Hill who had also left the Sea Org, and I knew about her leaving, but because this girl got a job in a bar in East Grinstead after leaving the Sea Org, I imagined that she did that so as to keep contact with Scientology (and probably this was the reason) so even with this girl, I never considered her an ex-Scientologist.

        All the Italian Scientologists I knew in Italy were continuing with Scientology (and as far as I know, all of them are still doing it), so I had no reason to doubt anything.

        I know it’s strange, but it does show how much mind control is really involved when somebody is in the cult.

        • Baby

          Knowing Scientology like I do now.. I don’t think it is strange at all Truth.. It clicked in my mind during your first post..

          You are right..You had no reason to doubt anything.. I certainly validate your comments.

          And so glad as I said.. that you are out and free..

    • Tracy Schmitz

      can you even FATHOM what tom cruise would think if ever, that is EVER he has a clue?! he made the evil leader, his best friend, best man at his weddings! he talked him that is miscavige up like he was the greatest leader who ever lived! he accepted medals of valor, surprise birthday parties, and work done on his home, cars, and other stuff…

      • Dr_Orpheus

        He’d be angry at the wasted time, money, and, most of all, damage to his career. His former best friend would be downgraded to his new worst enemy. I seriously doubt anyone as shallow and selfish as him would feel any guilt over his actions, but he would probably fake public remorse in an effort to salvage his career.

      • BFM

        Cognitive dissonance will make Tom to be the last one turning the lights off, long after the midget has fled to his midget hole.

    • 3feetback-of-COS

      “That bit about feeling a dupe, however, is a hard one to swallow.”

      I know how you feel; its one of the reasons I enjoy watching them implode and dissolve.

    • Stacy

      Truth, try not to beat yourself up over the being duped part. First, I think when hypnotism is involved, “duped” might be a bit too harsh. Second, you’re in great company…I know from your posts how smart, intelligent, learned, and introspective you are. So many other CoS victims are the same. It’s like the ultimate con, one that I don’t think anyone is safe from, unless they’ve been inoculated against it through knowledge of its practices. You didn’t have that at the time you got into it.
      I doubt this helps, but I felt like it should be said. It’s the truth as I see it.

  • Tracy Schmitz

    can anyone think of any “religion’ (especially a minor one at that like scientology is) that has more ex-members then current members? who also have not only left but spoken out against it? who has more lawsuits, stories of abuse in all it’s possible forms, documentaries and books and articles written about and against it, and so on as scientology?

    • Captain Howdy

      Roman Catholic Church?

      • Cosmo Pidgeon

        Could be. Crusades and all.

      • Tracy Schmitz

        well the catholic church has 1.2 billion members so i’m pretty sure there are still more members then ex, and i can’t think of anywhere where those who did leave it have spoken out against it. (course if they did they could couldn’t they unlike scientology) as far abuse and scandals i think it’s all if not entirely for the most part priest abuse, which contrary to perhaps public opinion is still a minute in regards to the entire faith. and i don’t recall protests around the world at catholic churches, or books or articles or documentaries against it either….

        • Captain Howdy

          You could have just zapped me with the buzzer.

        • Frodis73

          Go watch the Alex Gibney doc on the priest scandal…same guy doing the sci doc that comes out in Jan. It’s awesome and on youtube for free.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mea_Maxima_Culpa:_Silence_in_the_House_of_God
          There were lots of books, articles and protests over the abuse btw…

          • Tracy Schmitz

            good to know.. however, and i’m just guessing here, the abuse, priest abuse is still in the far minority yes? i mean there are way more priests who DON”T do this stuff then there are those who do? in regards to abuse, is this the only kind of abuse that is going on and being put in books and articles and protests? i’m not aware of any other kind of abuse… unlike scientology where abuse 1) takes all forms, financial,physical, mental, etcetera and 2) not only is it the various forms of abuse but the leadership, the illegality,the money scam scheme, and on and on! 2) the fact that all of this stuff is happening in a “religion” that has maybe somewhere between 20 to 40 thousand members in the entire world as compared to a religion that has 1.2 billion members in the world like the catholic religion makes everything that is evil, bad and illegal look FAR FAR WORSE in scientology since it’s so small and therefore the bad stuff is more “concentrated”…

            • Frodis73

              Yeah, they are very different and I hope there are not more pedos than good priests…when you learn how long they have known about it and the systematic moving them around and cover up, it’s pretty evil and very similar, but I get your point. Def check out the doc though…a great preview to see where he might go with the upcoming sci doc.

            • stillgrace2

              It was a moral crime against humankind- what they did. I’m glad there are records in evidence. I seem to remember the court case for making that information public.

              At least the Catholic Church opened up their wallets and gave the victims compensation. Doesn’t make it all better but it’s better to be rich and fucked over than just fucked over.

            • cathy from encino

              Well, Tracy, you’d be wrong. There’s a whole mess of scandal at the Vatican, including murder, money laundering, child-molesting priests in dozens of countries hidden by moving the miscreants to other countries and by the previous management’s refusal to cooperate with civil investigations… It’s all there, just LOOK for it. In Ireland, there are investigations over the virtual enslavement of young women in the “Magdalene launderies.” Dead children buried en masse in closed Catholic youth homes. And membership or active attendance down in many countries, year after year after year.

              So yes, the Worldwide Catholic Church is responsible for abuse of all forms, lying and gaslighting by leadership, money scams, and the resulting member drop-off. The difference between a cult and a religion is enough time and enough money. I agree that the bad is more noticeable in Scientology, and Pope Francis appears to be making important changes.

            • Frodis73

              Off to look into the ‘Magdalene laundries’ as I haven’t heard about this…thank you for your post. I know they have a lot of dirt and more that nobody knows about yet.
              ETA: Yikes, I did not know about all these bodies found in Ireland…smh

            • cathy from encino

              This year they found 800+ dead children’s bodies buried in a mass grave in Ireland. Nobody dared question the Church there until very recently. It was the scandals elsewhere sex and otherwise that allowed these other issues to be spoken about. Ugly stuff going on in every region of the world. In the US the bishops just complain about abortion in a never ending demonstration of Never defend, Attack.

            • Frodis73

              This is sickening. I’m not Catholic (ex, recovering or anything) so I don’t know as much as I should. This just makes me so mad and depressed…so much evil is done in the name of religion of all stripes and flavors but the Roman Catholic Church is in its own category imo. I don’t believe in heaven or hell, but I hope there is a special place for what these ppl have done in the name of their religion.

            • Eileen

              The raw numbers are much higher in the RCC.

        • stillgrace2

          I remember a protest outside the courthouse in downtown San Jose, CA when the county put this guy (can’t remember his name) on trial for slapping around an old priest that taunted him when confronted some thirty years after the guy sodomized him and his brother at a church gathering around the age of seven.

          The guy just lost it when the priest taunted him (and I don’t really blame him). The jury acquitted the “assailant”/victim and the sexual predator is currently still coddled in the arms of the Catholic Church in one of the most beautiful areas in the entire world- The Los Gatos Mountains. I hear he still drives around. (Sigh)

          • Juicer77

            How about removing them from pastoral office?!? or any situation where they can legitimately be alone with someone as a church function.

            • stillgrace2

              Oh yeah. There is actually a punishment “somewhat” similar to the RPF where offending priests are sent before they are reassigned to a new parish. Similar, probably, only in the first two letters of the acronym: Rehabilitation Project. I know now that they house them indefinitely, sometimes out of most public view (like in the Los Gatos case).

              That’s another difference between the Catholic Church, they don’t kick the disgracers to the curb. Good or bad, I don’t know and I’m too tired to think about it.

      • stillgrace2

        Did someone put out a call for Ex-Catholics to check in? Present.

        • MrsLurksALot

          My husband calls himself a “recovering” Catholic. Ed. for spl.

          • stillgrace2

            I like that. He’s right on the money there!

            • MrsLurksALot

              He has been quite impressed with Pope Francis of late….seems more open to a progressive move by the Church.

            • Dolly Jones

              Haha. Jinx. We posted same thing at same time.

            • stillgrace2

              Ooh, I’ll have to check that move out. Thanks for posting that.

              You’re not “love-bombing” me, are you? (Total JOKE) (no offense intended) I’ve been love-bombed to come back. Sometimes old friends will do that, but usually when you contact them, they don’t stalk. I sincerely doubt I would ever go back.

            • MrsLurksALot

              Well, no. I don’t know you like that and it is a little early in our online relationship to mention love, don’t you think? 😉

            • stillgrace2

              Nicely done, MrsLurksALot. Happy New Year. It’s still a holiday for me until 12 midnight tomorrow, so I’m not really late.

          • Stacy

            Too funny! I call my ex-Catholic friends that! I thought I’d coined that phrase over a decade ago. Lol, probably many people use it, and we all think we’re clever and the only ones. ;D

        • Captain Howdy

          Jesus H. Christ..what have I begat?

          Holy Mary full of grace
          The Masons are in second place

          • stillgrace2

            I told you my Jesus H. Christ story, didn’t I? I don’t want to be a boring old lady that tells the same stories over and over again.

            • Captain Howdy

              Shoot.

            • stillgrace2

              The three of us window shopping in the lovely town of Sparks, NV- me, my husband, and our three and a half year-old little boy. We ducked into a religious shop that sold various things, we were looking at the rosaries when my son looked up at a large crucifix next to the sales lady and yelled across the store:
              ” look mom, isn’t that “JEEEEZus H CHRIST!!!”
              at the top of his lungs. We just kinda wandered out.

            • Captain Howdy

              Hah! Good for him.

            • stillgrace2

              We were busted.

            • Dolly Jones

              too funny!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              That is my JOB!!!

      • aegerprimo

        The Catholic Church and many members do actual good in the world. For example I work at a non-profit faith based (Catholic) hospital.

        • Dolly Jones

          Loving Pope Francis. He’s so cool!

          • MrsLurksALot

            I call him the “cool Pope.” My husband just laughs, somewhat bemused, as I have been vocal with him about my issues with the Catholic Church. But, Pope Francis is really impressing this liberal woman.

            • Dolly Jones

              The Pope that keeps giving. lol. Every time you think you seen/heard it all, he comes out with something else that is new and refreshing to hear. He’s ruffling a lot of feathers inside and outside of the church. 🙂

              Did you see when the worlds “poorest president” Jose Mujica (atheist/socialist) from Uruguay visited him… He kept him there longer then planned and they were full of praise for one another afterwards.

            • MrsLurksALot

              He is ruffling a lot of feathers and that is probably a good thing. They need to shake up the Catholic Church, IMO.

            • Juicer77

              I like him and I’m not particularly liberal. Or conservative.

        • cathy from encino

          And that isn’t all good. Catholic hospitals will not provide abortions or sterilizations even if medically necessary. Then they merge with secular hospital groups and demand none of them provide these objectionable services.

          Imagine if the Scientologists ran hospitals, because it’s the same idea with fewer services off the menu. Touch assists for heart attacks and cancer!

          If you are pregnant, do not deliver in a Catholic hospital. They are under religious orders to save the baby’s life over the mother’s. Mom’s already here, must get that new soul ready for baptism and too bad if mom was more valuable to the rest of the family.

      • Just Dee

        Catholic Charities does help the community. They also don’t use front groups to hide who they really are. I am an ex catholic btw, I do have issues with some of their beliefs but I don’t think they can be compared to scientology.

        • stillgrace2

          To be fair, they really do. There’s a program that they run locally to act as a middle-man if you want to send a book to someone incarcerated in California. They don’t charge any extra fee and it’s a godsend for prisoners that want a certain book (since you can’t just mail a book to a prisoner).

        • Cosmo Pidgeon

          Different animals. I was just responding to Howdy’s answer and The Crusades and Spanish Inquisition came to mind. But I can say that if you leave the Catholic Church and move. No one tries to track you down. No one from the Catholic Church will be going through your trash. Just my experience. With that said I remove myself from this area of discussion.

          • Donna Cline Sargent

            nor do the Baptist.

            • My grandfather was a Baptist deacon. One of my fathers’ favorite saying is that “There will never be a Baptist Chartres Cathedral”.

          • Stacy

            Did you have a good New Years, Cosmo? I don’t think I saw you here at the Bunker gathering on New Years Eve.

            • Cosmo Pidgeon

              Yes, Thank you Stacy. A quiet night at home with the wife but made it till midnight. Hope you have a great 2015.

            • Stacy

              Thanks. I hope you have a great year in 2015 as well.

          • stillgrace2

            An important distinction … and nicely worded.

        • Stacy

          Definitely not Dee. And between the policy the Catholic Church finally enacted for dealing with molesting priests, AND their new, progressive pope, I’m actually starting to feel somewhat fond of the old beast. 😉

          • Dolly Jones

            Yeah he has a lot of atheist supporters… just crazy… but in a good way.

            • Graham

              “he has a lot of atheist supporters”. If so, I’m definitely not one of them. There’s a lot I could say about the Catholic Church but as we’re here to discuss Scientology I won’t got there.

            • Dolly Jones

              Maybe supporters is not the right word Graham. But there are a lot of people that are impressed with him, and interested in what he is doing. I’m not commenting on the church itself. Just the man.

          • Eclipse-girl

            I would feel better if Pope Francis allowed those secret records to be opened to investigators.

            I admit Francis is better than the german was.
            But remember that all the popes have known about the molestation, tolerated it and protected their own.

            • Dolly Jones

              Francis is not tolerating it. He has spoken very openly about it all. Taken responsibility. Said more or less the buck stops here.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I want Francis to allow investigators access to the all the records.

            • Dolly Jones

              Maybe he will.

            • Stacy

              I know. And a lot of the Cardinals (are they the highest in the US? I’m not sure) have resisted complying with the Church’s policy on molesters that it enacted in the last decade. It’s not perfect, but it’s so much better. The diocese that are in compliance immediately notify the police whenever a complaint is made against a priest. It’s these new efforts that have earned a bit of my respect; prior to this policy, I had nothing but contempt and hatred for the Catholic Church.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Alex Gibney’s documentary Mea Maxima Culpa is a must see.

            • Stacy

              I haven’t seen it yet. It’s on my list (which is VERY long). Think I’ll try and get it watched before the new semester starts.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I was not raised catholic.

              It got to me because of the courage / bravery of the deaf victims in Milwaukee who actually started this fight.
              It got to me because of the YEARS of cover ups.
              It got to me because Milwaukee was not an isolated case. This happened all over the world.
              It got to me because the popes KNEW.

            • Stacy

              Of course they knew. There’s been a worldwide systematic coverup. Some dioceses still try to coverup the twisted actions of their priests. One of the diocese still not in complete compliance with the current efforts of the Church to clean up is the one that incorporates Minneapolis – St. Paul. A lawyer who worked for the diocese for many years became a whistleblower after the leader (Cardinal? Bishop? I don’t know who’s in charge) refused to comply and had evidence of priests molesting parishioners destroyed to protect them. It drove me crazy. I kept her sworn affidavit bookmarked for a long while. I dug up some info for you.

              http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_26151586/st-paul-archdiocese-cavalier-toward-child-sex-abuse

              The affidavit of the lawyer is an inset PDF in the article.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I will read it.

              I met those victims in Milwaukee.
              There is a deaf community. it is somewhat insular, not because they want to be but because most people do not know ASL.
              The priest involved in Milwaukee preyed on this children because they were deaf.

            • Stacy

              I’ll look for an article on Milwaukee. I’m not aware of this particular story.
              One guy I went to grad school with had a friend in another grad program who was working to get permission from the catholic Church to do a study on the molestations that had gone on in the Church. I thought, ” No WAY is this guy EVER going to get permission from the Church to investigate this issue,” though, given my area of study, I’d love to see it done. To my surprise, the last I heard of it, the guy HAD actually gotten permission from the Church to come in and study the problem. How much access he’ll actually get, I don’t know, but I check frequently to see if any publications are forthcoming. I’m so hoping it happens…

            • Eclipse-girl

              I read the article that you linked.

              That woman is courageous. Priests / bishops / cardinals need to be doing hard time for the crimes they committed.

            • Stacy

              I’ll still look. I’ve looked into the multiple molestations committed by one priest all up and down the length of California, most in the 70s, but some in the 80s and 90s as well. Can’t think of his name at the moment, but he’s the subject of a documentary. He was finally sent back to Ireland by the Church. He claims repentance and says he wants help for his “problem,” but I think I remember reading that there have been new accusations against him. Disgusting old man.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Watch the doc when you have time.

              There was a priests retreat for “treating” pedophiles.
              It was non successful.

            • Stacy

              Oh yes, I’m aware of the Church’s supposed “fix” for their pedophiles. Ridiculous!

            • My grandfather found his 9 year-old brother naked in the presence of a priest, this was in Shanghai, China, around the early ’30s. His parents being wealthy influential laypeople, I’m sure that he was run out of the Church. Their influence was so strong that Grandpa and Grandma had to elope to Hangkow because she had family connections and a priest who would marry them. They were both of age, but great-grandma had let it be known that it would be better for any priest to have a millstone tied to their neck and dumped into the Yangzte River rather than join her son and Grandma in Holy Matrimony.

              Having written the above, I just realized my life has been a soap opera before I was born, or Mom was, for that matter. We will speak of this, later.

            • Eclipse-girl

              While I think the pull of your parents got rid of the priest in your area, I am not sure the man was run out of the church.

              Catholics were famous for moving these people around. The priesthood protected one another.

            • My grandmother was a devout woman who had a kind of spontaneous remission in hospital where she was though to be on her deathbed. She claimed that St. Paul came to her and healed her, then sent her home in a rickshaw. That is how she arrived unexpectedly, late at night, and she was spotted by my grandfather, who was then a young boy.

              She used to have monsignors, bishops, and higher, at her table. She would’ve had the influence to get him expelled, as she was fearless and took the teachings of Christ very seriously. Also, her husband, who in addition to having a lot of money, was 24-karat gold-plated S.O.B , probably would’ve paid someone from the Green Dragon Tong to have him killed if he stayed around Shanghai. Grandpa used to hang around them before he married grandma, and it wasn’t unusual for one of them to offer to kill someone for grandpa, like a butcher would promise to get you 10 lbs of sirloin steak at wholesale prices.

            • Juicer77

              Would love to hear the stories sometime!

            • Vaquera

              Shades of The Joy Luck Club?

            • Frodis73

              I love that book and movie. Now I want to watch it.

            • Vaquera

              It’s available on Netflix at the moment. Will hit play after the Steelers/Raven’s game.

            • Never that one. My mother’s family was European/Chinese on her father’s side, while her mother was half-Chinese, half Scots-English. She was darker than her sisters, but was the prettiest of them, and looked like a Philipina because of her facial features. Her sister was white, red-haired with freckles, but had the epicanthic fold of their mother. Their grandmother came from Macao, which meant she may have had some Portuguese in her as well, which would explain the way grandma and her aunt looked so different.

              If you ever watched the movie Dim Sum, there is one auntie who speaks English quite well, and talks about watching Dynasty. She reminded me of one of grandmas’ relatives who lived on the San Francisco Peninsula in Belmont. That’s the closest I’ve seen anyone in fiction resemble any of Mom’s family.

            • BruceCuffookJender

              Tell her about your obsession with that fat lard Amanda Marcotte.

            • Please repeat, you’re coming in stupid.

            • regressive white trash reli

              ^^^^CRYBABY^^^^^^TROLL^^^^IS^^^^BACK^^^^^^^^^^^^

            • Retransmit. Retransmit.

            • Juicer77

              ^ this. For all the good that is done, there is a definite cover-up mentality. I hope that changes soon.

        • Mark Foster

          Among other things, the Catholic Church endorsed slavery for hundreds of years. I don´t recall which pope helped arrange an agreement in which Spain and Portugal would be given specific areas of Africa to plunder and eradicate/ enslave…much like they(and other countries) did with other indigenous cultures around the world, in the name of ¨God¨, with overt or covert Catholic Church funding and approval. The church has a similar, blood-stained, heinous history regarding the treatment of women and children. Here´s a random link regarding the church and slavery:
          .http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/church&slavery.html
          I´m just making a point about the (centuries of) history of the Catholic Church´s destructive actions.

          • Just Dee

            I am talking present time Mark. The church also burned witches, hundreds of years ago… That doesn’t mean, nor should it be compared, to the present time.

            • Mark Foster

              I hear you. The present time is built on a very long, evil history of destructive actions. The Catholic Church´s current wealth and power were built on human misery, degradation, and slavery…and that slavery, in terms of the church´s long history of existence, is recent on the timeline. It´s well-documented and warrants deeper examination and discussion, in my opinion. Given the scandals involving the sexual abuse of children and Vatican-directed efforts to cover it up, a comparison to the past is not only valid, but necessary,in order to understand and come to terms with the attitudes, assumptions, and policies that have continually generated these egregious actions-for centuries, all over the world…

      • Eileen

        Agree with Howdy

        • Captain Howdy

          Uh. I thought I was on a game show.

          • Baby

            You didn’t answer with a question Captain!

            ” Alex What is the Roman Catholic Church?”

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      Good question. I can’t think of one, but I don’t claim to we well versed in world religions.

    • Donna Cline Sargent

      oh – maybe those westboro Baptist ppl

      • Dolly Jones

        If you had some Wesboro Baptists and Scientologists in the same room… who’s head would explode first? heheh.

        • Donna Cline Sargent

          i know rite ! i found out about them the same time as Scientology haha go figure !

          • Dolly Jones

            First heard of them when Louis Theroux documentary hit the TV back in 2007. MAD as hatters. Love all his programs. Mind you, love him too as he is a bit of stonking totty. 😉

            • Donna Cline Sargent

              i just watched it on line a few months go along with the Scientology stuff ! so sad about the kids all the way around !

            • Dolly Jones

              A lot of them are out now. phew.

            • Donna Cline Sargent

              i am a total Documentary junkie !

            • Dolly Jones

              Me too Donna.

        • Donna Cline Sargent

          its disgusting they claim to be Baptists or Christians !

      • cathy from encino

        Westboro, like Scientology, is not a religion but a giant troll. WBC deliberately incites people to violence and then sues. Their founder, Fred Phelps, was a top First Amendment lawyer and many of his adult children have law degrees by intent. They know exactly what they can get away with and seek out negative attention. When counter protests are silent and don’t engage them, they leave. I saw this happen when they protested a high school and the counter protest was 47x their size and sung peace songs. Their sad little WBC group slunk away, denied the fight they came for.

        • Couch_Incident

          Ha – exactly my experience. Went to a counter-protest at my old high school and there were like a couple of hundred of us, relatively quiet and peaceful, and about 5 of them separated by a large expanse of parkland (smart cops here). They stayed about a half-hour at most and left.

    • Eileen

      The american Catholic Church?

      • cathy from encino

        The worldwide Catholic Church. Child molestation and rape, lying about it, blackmail. Slavery. Kidnapping. Murder. Money laundering. Influencing elections. Bribery. Thwarting civil authorities.You want me to go on?

        Plenty of books and documentaries.

  • cdub

    I’m glad the language restriction has been lifted.
    When Google revoked their ad placements at the Bunker I wondered if there were competing ad placement services you could make use of.

  • Graham

    I’ve just set up my monthly subscription, so I feel free to say once again……https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e9Y023-mnc

    • Graham

      Having got that out of my system, and at the risk of sounding like the language police, I’m going to repeat what I said when the potty-mouth ban was introduced: Tony’s site is now the go-to site for newbie Scientology watchers, who get directed here for further info after they’ve read a Scieno-critical article. So hopefully we won’t descend so far into the depths of depravity that we alienate our very welcome visitors……

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        We will try to behave….but our vocabularies may be directly related to levels of alcohol (and other substances) that we consume in any given time frame.
        For instance…a six pack (and it’s induced expletives) add enough extra words to my vocabulary to bring me up to the average of 10K words for an adult humanoid (non homo novis of course).

        In other words…..drinking and swearing makes me smarter.
        That is my story. I am sticking to it.

        • Dolly Jones

          Ditto.. lol

        • NOLAGirl

          I’d like to second this. Same thing happens to me when I partake of ‘herbal refreshments’. 🙂 The words might not make sense, but there are more of them. Hehe.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Hey, those of us who provide the quantity, just make the ones who provide quality look even better.
            It is my hat to make to make the big beings look BIGGAH!!!!

            Now share the herb?????

            • NOLAGirl

              Bahahaha!! *passes it*

            • Vaquera

              Herb makes me feel stupid and I hate feeling stupid. Alcohol makes me super smart and I sing on key.

            • Dolly Jones

              OMG, same here… I’m such a brilliant drunk singer. hahahah.

              Perhaps we could do a duet sometime… after a few!!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Me too….although Mr. Nuts disagrees. But he is a party pooper.

            • Dolly Jones

              Oh well it’s a done deal then. Me, you and “super smart” Vaquera, up singing together next time we partake in a tipple or two. 😉

            • Vaquera

              So in, oh I don’t know…..10 minutes?

        • Vaquera

          For instance…a six pack (and it’s induced expletives) add enough extra words to my vocabulary to bring me up to the average of 10K words for an adult humanoid, but i misspell them, danm ite!

      • Baby

        Meh.. Fuck Em…

        …………………………….

        No one swears more than Scientologists.. I think they would feel right at home.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Isn’t it funny how certain avi’s let you release different facets of your personality?
          I get that.
          Wierd, huh?

          • Vaquera

            Ive never changed my avi, but when i changed my screen name I felt relief.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              AH HA!!!!
              😉

            • Vaquera

              I was always worried that TXCowgirl implied that I was a yeehaw who was out riding the range on a daily basis.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              You say that like it is a bad thing 😉

            • Vaquera

              Not a bad thing at all. It’s more that the name implied I am someone I’m not. I am a city girl who plays cowgirl on the weekends.

            • Baby

              Girl you will always be Texas to me.. Always..I have never stopped calling you that!

            • Vaquera

              And you always should. It reminds me that I’ve been in the Bunker long enough to change my name and that you like me, you really like me!

            • Baby

              OK Sally Field here is your Emmy..ha

            • Dolly Jones

              What was it before?

            • Vaquera

              TXCowgirl

          • Baby

            It really is weird Bury..I have this weird compulsion to drink Southern Comfort..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Add banana, orange, pineapple juice and some soda water.
              You will be happy.

            • Baby

              As long as I don’t taste the Southern Comfort ( AT ALL) I will be good to go..your recipe sounds fabulous.

            • Frodis73

              Did you have a bad night with it once too? Lol.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I have only had those times with Tequila and Vodka.
              Vodka and I kissed and made up….but Tequila and I are still mad at each other.
              And it has been almost forty freakin years!!!!

            • Frodis73

              LMAO! I’ve never had a bad night with Vodka, well that’s not totally true, but not like the night I had with So Co or Tequila! Tequila does the same thing to me too. Ugh! Gag. Lol…fun times back in the day though…until morning at least. I don’t plan on speaking with Tequila ever again!

            • Baby Mcgee

              YEP

            • Frodis73

              That sounds gross, but good at the same time. I had a bad experience with So Co many, many years ago and I gag at the thought of it…even just the smell can get me going.

        • Vaquera

          I LOVE YOUR NEW AVI!

          • Baby

            Thanks Texas.. My personality is much more Janis than a smoking baby..

            I could change my name to Baby Mcghee but it might confuse people..haha

            ( I love Bobby Mcghee..) but THAT would really confuse..ha

            It took a long time to change it from Glibby to Baby before people knew who I was..even with the same avi.

            • Vaquera

              Took me 5 seconds to register your name change, but i was “here” when you did it. Your new avi is joyous freedom.

            • Baby

              Yes you were! and yes it is! xo

            • Dolly Jones

              I don’t handle change too well. New name would send me over the edge… Eeeeek!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              “Baby Mcgee” ????

              That is fucking hilarious and I cannot believe you would not take full advantage of this!!!!

              You need to discuss with brother bear to see if he blesses this idea.
              I LOVE IT.

              X47!!!!

            • Baby

              OMG He was the first one I thought of..hahhahaha Ask him on SP/ FB ( and Sam) and explain..

              Isn’t that funny? hahhaa

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Do EET!!!!!
              Hell, everybody else has sox………..join the party.

            • Baby Mcgee

              Done.. In memory of Pearl! ( and my twin who won a contest in a bar once singing Bobby McGee)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Freakin awesome…and it sends a clue to who you were before. Righteous!

            • Baby Mcgee

              I wouldn’t have done it had you not been so pushy..thank you..

            • Frodis73

              I love it girl!!

            • Baby Mcgee

              It is definitely me..haha.. Janis was a live wire on stage..OUT of Control..but a loner like me.

            • Couch_Incident

              My eccentric dog trainer was a pre-teen when his parents took him to a free Janis Joplin concert in our local park. Janis saw him in the crowd and brought him up to the mic.

            • Baby Mcgee

              Oooh Couch.. that is a cool story.. Yep anyone who is kind to animals is good in my book.

              ( Well, NOT everyone)

            • Dolly Jones

              What is the significance of the name change Baby? I’m probably being a bit dense but not sure what I’m missing.

            • Baby Mcgee

              The Avi is Janis Joplin..and her signature song is ” Bobby Mcgee”

              So I changed my name from Baby to ” Baby Mcgee..” xo

            • Dolly Jones

              Ahhhh got it now. See I was being dense.. lol. 🙂

        • LeahRocks

          You’ve all inspired me! I need an avi that better represents me. Hmmmm..

          • Baby Mcgee

            Oh Leah.. What represents you? I’ll help you! xo baby.. There are a lot of avi’s out there..plus I can make you one…

            • LeahRocks

              Good Question, Baby. I turn 65 this month and I’m not sure how I would define myself anymore….I will ponder this and get back to you!
              I would appreciate help on the avi when I’ve ‘discovered” myself…lol

    • Techie

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyBH5oNQOS0 But don’t worry about Scientologists being put off by cursing talk, they are some of the most accomplished practitioners of scatological creativity I have ever heard.

      • Frank Lee

        And how about those body parts that are also “always filthy”?

    • Dr_Orpheus

      Father Jack at Narconon would have been an episode worth seeing.

      • Dolly Jones

        Hahaha Yes!

        Best line “That would be an ecumenical matter”

    • Dolly Jones

      Heheh.. Father Ted never gets old.. tis great stuff LOL

      • Donna Cline Sargent

        what show is this ?

        • Graham
        • Dolly Jones

          An Irish comedy. Around the mid 1990s, about three priests that live on a remote island just off the Irish coast, because all three are not held in high regard by those above. One for financial irregularities.. one is a dope.. and one is a drunk. It is hysterically funny.

      • Donna Cline Sargent

        just answered my question lol watched clips “ass biscuit ” that is great ! i now have to find out if i can watch it in America

        • Dolly Jones

          If you do, make sure to watch in order. 🙂 Won awards in Ireland/UK.

          • Dolly Jones

            Also pokes fun at Irish culture. Especially with the housekeeper that wants everyone to drink tea all the time. Cracked me up … I spent every summer holiday as a child with my Irish relatives.

          • Donna Cline Sargent

            i love shows from there,do u have reality t.v. much ? i hate it !

            • Dolly Jones

              Yeah a lot of it. Hate it too. Except the English version of the Apprentice. That I watch as it is too funny. They all useless.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ REMINDER +–+ RED X

    Congratulations TAMPA for another clean slate & 27 flagged for removal (psst check Miami!)
    25 ads so far this Saturday (see the Daily Wip). Keep checking the Daily Wip for California later this evening every 2nd hours.
    Yesterday SFBay was leading the pack, today it is LA taking an early lead and galloping ahead!

    RedX write up : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-117#post-2494321
    RedX spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    For those who do not have much time but would like to send a message to Tony Chen here are the links for Sacramento Riverpark mission.
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/bbb?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/ccc?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/eee?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    If you like to do ALL Sacramento (about 100 ads) go to the Regional list of the RedX spreadsheet. (see link above).

    James aka JJ and Gregory are spamming again after a break of a few months, find them in the Regional List or the Last 4 Days!

    Wayfarer by Dirty Blue Blood, enhanced by DodoTheLaser for RedX & flickred by
    Aegerprimo:. https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/15392179967/in/set-72157642802079293

    • Pierrot

      Please pay particular attention to this one: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/grp/4830752809.html

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        The irony of Scientology teaching anybody ‘right from wrong’ is like acid burning my skin.

        • stillgrace2

          It’s like a full length gastronemius muscle spasm.

          • stillgrace2

            … no, no … a dislocated shoulder.

            • Stacy

              Whichever it is, it’s sickening, the way they target children. 🙁

      • madame duran

        This ad is weird. How many parents do you come across saying that they don’t know how to teach their child(ren) right from wrong and that they need a workshop to assist/do it for them?? Can you imagine a parent actively training their kid to make bad, harmful choices (“Putting poison in your baby sister’s sippy cup? Breaking into the neighbour’s car? Cheating on your school exams? I think that’s awesome! Go for it!!”)? If you’re an adult and you don’t sense the inherent value of having good manners, being responsible/honest/fair, loving/helping/thinking of others, working hard, giving more than receiving, etc…if the Golden Rule (“Do to others as you would have them do to you”) is a foreign concept…then you shouldn’t be breeding. Or even have pets in your care. Like, really, you need to step off this planet and not come back because we can’t handle your foolishness. This ad goes to show how Scientology views everyone as either utterly stupid, incompetent or evil then upholds itself as the sole fount of perfect knowledge. Barf-a-rooney.
        Side comment: Anyone else here think that the Scientology Mission should be renamed, “Mission of the Footbullets”? *raises hand*

    • NOLAGirl

      I am sure you all have noticed this but Ventura says they’ve moved to a new address. Here it is in case you need it for searches. (And yes I am secretly hoping they’ve had to move to a smaller location. 😉 )

      Church of Scientology
      2368 Eastman Ave., Suite 11B
      Ventura, CA 93003

      • Pierrot

        Thank you, we were not aware, any new tel#?

        • NOLAGirl

          (805) 585-5314 Not sure if that’s new.

          • Pierrot

            Thanks it looks like they kept the same # and moved in a suite!

            • NOLAGirl

              There’s that straight up and vertical, 47x expansion for ya. LOL 🙂

            • NOLAGirl

              Sorry to bother you again Pierrot but do you have a link for instructions on how to change your IP? Thanks in advance.

            • Pierrot

              no problem, the only way I know is the Reboot Router Tech or RRT as explained in the left column of the tab in the RedX spreadsheet.
              Come back if you have questions, but the answer will have to wait until tomorrow as it is way past my bedtime. Good luck!

            • NOLAGirl

              I appreciate the help. Sleep well. 🙂

            • Graham

              Yes, I just turn my router off, wait a few minutes and turn it on again. If you google “IP address” you’ll get a link which will tell you what your address is. If you do that before and after then that’s a way of confirming that you have indeed been given a new address.

    • Dolly Jones

      Got my first every frog tonight. lol. Just changed IP and carried on.

    • NOLAGirl

      Super-fresh ads (30 mins or less) in the Sacramento lists posted above.

  • MaxSpaceman

    Jon Atack, most excellent. on recovery from Scientology membership-processing-training-auditing, regaining your humanity, remaking your life. Into something you can be the director of, not the follower of the all-knowing LRH, the know-it-all. You become the master of your ship once again. You feel humanity. You feel your compassion. And you don’t denigrate those less fortunate. You may have compassion. Sympathy. Love.

    Regaining that from the selfishness of scientology is worth any pain of leaving. For however long it may last.

  • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

    And call me a cynic but I don’t like calling him “Ron”. Ron is your uncle’s name. Ron is a guy who has seen it all and you are lucky to hear just a little of what he knows. Ron is from Reginald or Regis and it means leader or king. I don’t think he chose the name the way Hitler and Stalin did, I just think it was an ugly coincidence. I like the name L.Ron though. L.Ron is a name for a pretentious blowhard and a nitwit who is to be avoided so that you don’t become guilty by associating with him. L.Ron is close to the name of the Elf Leader in the Hobbit, a character that has nothing to do with reality. L.Ron is a guy who likes to play dress up and be a sailor, a cowboy, a botanist, and a mystic leader. Most can’t take him seriously. I am going to stick with L.Ron. Laff is acceptable. Hubbard is OK. I don’t like “fatty” because there are a lot of good people who are fat. Creep, scum, scumball, Uncle Huggie, and Scumsucking creep all work. Dr. Hubbard, Commodore, and the Old Man are right out.

    • Stacy

      Uncle Huggie… LOL. I just love it. Hehehehe. I keep laughing at this one.

    • Captain Howdy

      How about Laffy Fuck?

      • scottmercer

        King of the Clams?

    • In the SF short novel, The Warriors of Day, by James Blish, one of the characters, a fanatical cult leader described as “murderous” is named Elron.

      Found this summary:

      From: AnonEMoose
      Message-ID:
      Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:13:00 -0700
      I went back to the used book store and broke down and bought the Blish book which makes a reference to Elron. It’s by well-known SF author James Blish (_Cities in Flight_ etc.), titled “The Warriors of Day”, published 1967 by Lancer books, and has a copyright date of 1951 (another edition listed in on-line library catalogs has a copyright date of 1961; the book doesn’t seem to be listed at all on Amazon.com).

      The back-cover and pre-title-page blurbs make the book sound like it has an extremely cheesy plot (which was why I didn’t buy the book on Saturday), but here are some of the bits about the character Elron, cruel High Priest of the Cult of the Dark Worship of the god Mahrt (described as “Satanistic”

      on p. 89), that I was able to find by flipping back and forth a little through the pages:

      “Put him in irons”, Elron said stonily.

      The red-head’s face was suffused, his pupils alarmingly large.

      Though he was speaking quite softly, each word was bitten off with so sharp an edge that it rang like iron.

      “You are about to witness a ceremony of the Dark Worship”, Elron said. “Bind him”, Elron said calmly. “Bind him into the dark niche of the Pillar of Sorrow, manacle his feet and hands. Both of you will stand watch over him during the ceremony. Do not fear to show me a corpse when I return from my offices. Kill him for any reason you see, or no reason at all. I shall be more likely to reward you for a corpse than a live man–” It seemed very likely that Elron, high priest of the Dark Worship, had hoped to be the Sword of Mahrt. [[i.e. the prophesied messiah]] It was a common-place in all religions that the priesthood regarded itself as the instrument of deity, and where the legend promised the coming of a supreme prophet or saviour, the temptation of the head priest to identify himself with the forthcoming deliverer was invariably stronger than human temptation could resist. When a man has built up an elaborate organization, founded in hope of perpetuating itself forever, the arrival of an event which promises to deprive that organization of meaning within a year or so could hardly be welcome.

      Go Back to Shy David’s Scientology Page.

      • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

        Given the community, the time and the red hair it seems beyond coincidence. A “Ron” wouldn’t do those nasty things. It takes an L.Ron.

        • Baby

          A Tomato by any other name is still a Tomato.

          • Graham

            Even after it’s been audited?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Then it just becomes sauce………

            • Baby

              Before During and After!

      • Beautiful find.

    • Baby

      I’ve always called him Hubs.. Someone I don’t take serious at all and can laugh at ..

      • Artoo45

        Yep. It’s Hubbs for me too.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I am fat.

      I have used the epithet “Fat Boy” for Elron. I am sorry for the harm that I have caused using the name.
      I do not fat shame Kristie Alley.

      I liken it to James Womack using “Big Boy” for Stalin in his dystopian novels.
      “Big Boy” is too kind for that man.

      • romanesco

        How about Pretzel Boy? Twisted.

    • I usually say Elron (and not L. Ron). Heh, the Toronto org picket handlers would wince like a toothpick under the fingernail each time.

    • L. C. Spencer

      Also, Elrond is wise, kindhearted and creative, and makes huge personal sacrifices for the sake of lesser beings he will never even meet. Not exactly to be confused with Der Hubble.

    • That’s funny. I wrote Elwrong once and asked him if he knew Tolkein because of that Elf name. He wrote back that (harumph), he and Tolkein were “contemporaries.” Friggin egoist.

      • Frodis73

        As if! He’s such a no talent waste.

      • April

        I may be mistaken, but I thought that the definition of contemporaries in this context just means that they were both alive at the same time?

    • Dr_Orpheus

      My favorite name for him is Hubris since that was a trait he possessed in spades.

    • Cosmo Pidgeon

      I like Uncle Huggie.

    • MaxSpaceman

      and he is a guy who like to play at, too, that guy L. Ron, ‘ Motion Picture Producer & Director ‘ – Record Producer/ Arranger – Sound Engineer – Composer – Musician.

      • Frodis73

        So full of himself…so self-satisfied. Twit.

  • Tony Ortega

    New photo added to the post

    • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

      They suckered poor Fu Mei into blowing her savings on “Super Power” and when she got them they applauded, gave her a balloon and a really keen certificate. I hope she got a good superpower, maybe like Matter-Eater Lad or Bouncing Boy. I hope Professor X gets to her before Magneto does.

      • I hope they do some matching with the people when they hand out super powers. Imagine if your power is that every car show you go to is a damned good car show–but you don’t like car shows?

        • aquaclara

          Aah, like the terrific Superpowers we all have, but yet, we still hate the cult.

          Great analogy.

          Hey, OSA-we didn’t pay for our superpowers. And there’s no RPF, blackmail, er, auditing, sec checks, or any other kind of checks involved.

          Didn’t Davey tell you? Ha. He got you good.

      • Sid

        Fu Mei is married to Jim Mathers of the fancy shirt. Worth millions. He is partners with Pat Clauden in the electric company CES.

        Edit spelling.

        • Mighty Korgo of Teegeeack

          You can’t tell the players without a program. What a world.

    • Couch_Incident

      Fu Mei? No! Fu You!

    • L. Wrong Hubturd

      As George Bush might say:

      Fu Mei once, shame on….shame on you, Fu Mei….er um, you can’t get Fu’d again.

      • Vaquera

        Isn’t that a song by The Who? 🙂

  • Vaquera

    O/T: The Harpy Cardone is looking a little rough around the edges today. She has surely scared her 2.8K followers. (refresh)

    • Destructor of Worlds

      Grant sure likes them Crazy

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        The scary part is how good she is with Guns!!!

        • Destructor of Worlds

          Imagine her with a big kitchen knive.

          Grant won’t stray, too dangerous.

      • Gabbyone

        “Gone Girl”

        • Vaquera

          ^^^^^

    • flyonthewall

      maybe she was captured by ISIS and this is the post decapitation pic? They cleaned the head up a bit, obviously. For PR reasons

    • I think she looks pretty good for her age especially sans makeup

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    Early Warning System Alert is Active.

    Only because I promised last time

    • Eclipse-girl

      I must have missed what happened.

      Oh well 😉

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        You didn’t miss anything. Carry on my friend.

        • Artoo45

          Nothing to see here. Move along . . .

          • Sandy

            ..

    • Observer

      Ugh.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Go all Pollyanna and just hope for the best.

        HAHAHA

        • flyonthewall

          wth r u guys talkin about?

        • Observer

          Sorry, this is about as close to Pollyanna as I can get.

          refresh

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Heh, heh, heh….(we must be related)

            • Sandy

              I just don’t see it.

              Altho, that does look like my baby pic.

  • HTC

    To my friends in the bunker, here is a sunset from the Florida Keys.

    • Vaquera

      Lovely. Did you watch for the green flash?

      • HTC

        I’ve seen the green flash on more than one occasion and it’s a thing to see indeed.

        • I’ve heard that you can get it in the high arctic too, which surprised me. I thought it was a tropics thing.

          • Sid

            I get it when I’m high in the arctic also.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Ok, folks…I am going all Science Grandma on you….

            • Sid

              What does this have to do with getting high in the arctic?

            • Eclipse-girl

              IIRC, you need an unbroken, flat horizon. That is why most people see it over water

            • Sid

              I think I need a new joke writer.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Naw, I am just slow at times.

            • Just Dee

              I have family in the keys & am there often. I’ve never heard of this before, interesting…
              ETA: Thanks for the science lesson 🙂

          • HTC

            I’m embarrassed to say I’ve never seen snow. Even when it snowed here in FL in ’76 I skipped school and slept thru it 🙁

            • Frodis73

              Let me tell you…you’re not missing anything at all. I wish I could say that I’ve never seen snow. It can be beautiful at times, but the pain in the ass factor outweighs anything good imo. Hate snow, cold, ice, etc.

        • LeahRocks

          Green flash?

          • einsteinonthebeach

            The second before the sun goes down, there is apparently for some lucky observers a brief flash of green light. It’s a rare phenomena.

          • HTC

            Leah, it doesn’t happen often, but sometimes the instant the sun hits the water/horizon there is a green flash…very brief…kind of local lore. If you haven’t already, read anything written by Carl Hiason. Hilarious stuff and local to Florida.

            • LeahRocks

              I live in Florida, but haven’t made it to the keys yet. I will look for the flash! Lol

        • indie8million

          Green flash. Wasn’t he a super hero?

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Beautiful. I am seeing the Keys in my future in a couple of weeks or so.

      • Frodis73

        Lucky you!! I so want to go there some day…

        • Artoo45

          I’m alway losing my keys . . .

          • Frodis73

            Lol, I’m pretty famous for that too…I loose everything…easily distracted or something.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          That was on my “bucket list” as a twenty something.
          And then…I get married in my early forties…move across the continent ….and next thing you know…I visit the keys…repeadedly!!!!

          You just never know what might await you.

          • Frodis73

            Oh, I hope so Bury! Postulate sunshine for me!

    • HTC

      this was taken from our boat a few years ago in Marathon. Sadly, ex got the boat but I still dig the sunsets.

  • JennyAtLAX

    Re: Google threatened to turn the Bunker’s lights off by making up some “adult content” bull

    I, JennyAtLAX, declare and state as follows:

    “Google complained and made up lies to disrupt Bunker operations. Google did not want to have anything to do with servicing the Bunker. They just didn’t care.

    “Unbelievable. Google had zero effect, none. And nobody gives a fuck about them. That’s the truth. Nobody has even noticed they’re gone, man. Those guys are embarrassing and pathetic. Pathetic. Wow! What losers. What losers. They’re an embarrassment. An embarrassment to the fact that they were ever, ever connected to the Bunker. They have no facts. Nobody cares. Nobody’s interested. It’s a God damned joke. No one gives a crap. OK?

    “They Bunker has moved on.

    “Fuck you, Google, you cock-sucking piece of shit.”

    I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.

    JennyAtLAX

    http://www.freedommag.org/sites/default/files/declaration06.pdf
    http://www.lawrencewrightgoingclear.com/sites/default/files/App11-Jenny%20Linson.pdf
    http://lybio.net/scientology-what-a-pathetic-individual/news-politics/
    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/scientology-top-management-video-earlier-beginning

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      You are really starting to grow on me…..;-)

      • Lucille Austero

        It’s weird, but I agree with you.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Meet me at #jennyatLAXislikeafungus.com

    • Destructor of Worlds

      Google = The Next Cult

    • einsteinonthebeach

      Is that freedommag.ord link you provided a scientology site? If so, I would advise against visiting, which would allow them to log your IP address

      • JennyAtLAX

        It is a $cn site. Good advice. Thank you.

      • Just Dee

        It’s worth opening & reading. Especially now since she is a YouTube star due to her insanity.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          ^^^^^

        • JennyAtLAX

          Just Dee, guess what? After only four days, Facebook killed JennyAtLAX; it turns out they want us to use our real names (go figure). JennyAtLAX found a new home:

          http://jennyatlax.wordpress.com/

          • Just Dee

            That does sound lame. More like someone bitched to Facebook. My son-in-law has a crazy name & FB never bothered him. If it was Jenny Atlax, I don’t think it would have stood out

  • nottrue

    I think this is the guy in that bonus photo….

  • NOLAGirl

    O/T: BlackRob just updated his “Thetan in the Mirror” thread at ESMB. The guy joining the Sea Org on Christmas Eve makes me sad.

    New posts start at post #4495 http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?25895-I-have-a-Thetan-who-does-things-to-my-mirror-and-it-s-annoying-What-Should-I-Do/page450

    • Captain Howdy

      I got this:
      ….

      • MaxSpaceman

        me2

      • NOLAGirl

        Hmm..It’s working for me. I’ll try to repost it.

      • Frodis73

        That’s weird, I’m getting that too even though I was just there last night.

        • NOLAGirl

          See my post below.

  • nottrue
  • Jimmy3

    I flippin love cursing, but I suck so bad at it.

    • Jenny Daniels

      All you need, Jimmy, is MORE practice.

  • chukicita

    Sweet Baby Xenu. I just saw the new Scientology TV commercial, airing locally before the NFL playoff game. The one that starts with a shot of the planet, saying “you are here.”

    Evidently 111 million people were unaware of their human rights before Scientology came along. There were so many lies I’m surprised they didn’t break through the screen and start spilling out into the living room.

    • Jimmy3

      On ESPN or NBC? I missed it.
      ETA: probably not running in this market.

      • NOLAGirl

        I missed it too. Can’t they stay out of our sports?

        • Jimmy3

          Gotta be honest, I wouldn’t feel the least bit sorry if any Steelers or Ravens fans get suckered by Scientology. They can all join Sea Org for what I care.

          • NOLAGirl

            All these players have to deal with Goodell, don’t wish any more bad on them 😀

            • Jimmy3

              Dealing with Goodell or joining Scientology: either way, you’re getting Ginger Hammer’d.

          • Captain Howdy

            DIE BALTIMORE DIE!

            • stillgrace2

              Pittsburgh has always been my backup team to cheer on when the niners don’t make it to the playoffs and Alex Smith isn’t playing them.

            • Captain Howdy

              Sorry but I hate the Steelers also. I’d just rather see the Pats play Cincy or Indy next week than the Ravens. The Pats have had a hard time with the Ravens the last few years. Rapistburglar is a creep but the Ravens are a whole team of thugs and murderers.

            • Jimmy3

              I’m holding out hope that both teams lose. Like maybe there’s a double disqualification and neither team advances.

            • Jimmy3

              This hilarious guy who goes by the name ‘PFTCommenter’ satirizes football analysts and pundits. He said the reason Kaepernick hasn’t been as good lately is because Alex Smith used to translate Harbough’s play calls into rap lyrics so Kaep could understand them.

            • NOLAGirl

              Love PFTCommenter! 🙂

            • Jimmy3

              I love your strong taek on PFTCommenter.

            • NOLAGirl

              I have quite a list of football parody accounts I follow, PFT is near the top as the funniest.

            • Vaquera

              I’ve been anti-Steelers since their ’70’s rivalry with the Oilers. Love Ya’ Blue!

      • chukicita

        ESPN.

      • chukicita

        oops. no, NBC. (can’t trust the one with the remote)

    • NOLAGirl

      And here comes the flood of snarky tweets about the commercial. 🙂 This happens every time they do that. Hehehe!

    • Yeah, air these human rights PSAs by Tiziano Lugli various people:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywk2UdsW9I0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzDqXVLavbU

  • aquaclara

    Who just barfed crayons all over that dude’s shirt? Oh, sorry, Off topic. Sorry, new certificate holder, for your loss of money. Time. Life.

    • einsteinonthebeach

      His shirt reminds me of this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZd7MzF1RlA

    • Baby Mcgee

      Aqua.. Your avi is divine..Just went to the beach a couple of days ago..

      • aquaclara

        Why, thank you. Your new incarnation is quite lovely, too. We have a rather large clambake coming, and as you can see, it’s almost time. I have been waiting since 1976. The sun is now setting….

        Davey should know that both the LA area and Clearwater are great spots for watching the sun go down. On his parade.

        • Baby Mcgee

          Thank you.. Clambake..I certainly love the sound of that! I would love to be on the beach the day that Davey is there to see the sun set ( On his HEAD!)

          • aquaclara

            We will be there. The front row seats are reserved for the exes, who waited, suffered, and told all. But we’ll be there, too, a couple rows back, passing the drawn butter, appetizers and extra napkins. And pouring some drinks.

            • Baby Mcgee

              Oh Hell to the Yes. I will personally volunteer to pass out the CAEK!

  • Artoo45

    I just came across all these documents the chult crated to eat Time magazine back in ’91. I also found a strange 21 page, typewritten document with a point by point refutation of the Time article from Applied Scholastics plus a couple of other pieces. I have no recollection how I got the Applied Scholastics stuff. Crazy. I also found my letter to Time urging them to fight the cult.

    • Baby Mcgee

      Very interesting Artoo..( 7 Million members..) PUHLEEEEEEEEEEase

      • Artoo45

        Maybe I’ll transcribe the whole Applied Scholastis thing someday. It’s fairly hilarious in hindsight.

        • BFM

          Aps is failing miserably… end eighties/beginning of nineties they were actually expanding and opening up schools and study groups making their way into the educational system.

          Most of such efforts are gone and just 2 schools I know of still exists in the EU area (private schools, no government funding and mostly clam kids attending — below 20 students).

          The official educational systems rejected the Ideas of Hubbard wholesale.

      • BFM

        They count the BT’s and clusters too I guess… and even then…. 7 million seems just a tad exaggerated.

        • Baby Mcgee

          Lyin Liars Lie

          • BFM

            Habitually 🙂 I honestly think they don’t know the difference any longer between an observable truth and an “acceptable” truth.

            • Baby Mcgee

              Well..You know BFM

              ” What’s True for You.. blah, blah..Yackity Smackity

            • BFM

              I keep trying that one to my mortgage bank. But they don’t agree with me when I say I shouldn’t be paying. Damn I need some cramming on this point.

    • Robert Eckert

      I hope you sent copies to Tony

  • BFM

    Again a great article by Jon Atack. IMO, he is the most knowledgeable ex scientologist, going through all the different labyrinths of that mindfuck, finding clear answers and explanations for the things that entangle good people in this bad cult.

    I can imagine he has put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours of research into this. Every time he posts, I read it two or three times (depending on the spare time I have).

    The other day I was having a new years party with some of my fellow SP’s and aspirant SP’s, and a couple of UTRs who refuse to disconnect, but have too much on the line to resign officially at this point.
    We were talking about the persons still in and sharing anecdotes and stories about them.

    At some point we were counting the hardcore members of a couple of orgs (as we all know, and was confirmed again, those numbers are pitiful low).

    We came to a very remarkable conclusion: The most hardcore dedicated persons around non SO-orgs, are EX-SO members….., they are also the most gung-ho persons in the OTC’s. Everyone we counted were long time members serving many years and end up routing out. A fair number of them had even done the RPF. They ALL know they are regarded as degraded beings by the cult… and still that gung-ho. I am very curious to know what mechanism underpins this level of dedication.

    Anyway, the good news was that there are virtually NO new sign ups. The first service starts and the book sales are non-existent, long term. Staff numbers are at an all time low, most orgs numbered around 30 (most used to have close to hundred and above). And those 30 staff are mostly only part time on post because the have to moonlight to make ends meet. One org had lost its ONLY posted HGC auditor to Flag (recruited by a mission).

    Really. in 2015 I see quite some orgs just closing down. There is no other way unless Davey decides to keep them open with IAS money (like Brussels org is being kept open — IAS pays for most of it’s expenses).

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      This is one of those times i want to have “Chicago” voting abilities!!!

      • BFM

        We also did some maths (we have an accountant amongst us). And while 2 billion in cash reserves seem a lot… it’s really not that much when Davey needs to keep up the pretense of straight up vertical expansion. It means he need to keep the orgs open at all costs. Now, there are hundreds of orgs/missons that are virtually DEAD. In order to keep the whale money coming in he needs to keep up the pretense, but, keeping those orgs open also costs a huge amount of money. The contribution through production is declining so fast, it wont even be a factor in most places somewhere this, or the next year. Seen in this light, 2 billion isn’t that much cash, really.

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Bingo.

          So WHEN AND WHERE is he going to go?
          And I DO think he will finally go…………

          That is My question.

          • einsteinonthebeach

            John P knows:)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              My jury is still out on John’s GPS Smartbomb!

            • Artoo45

              Woah! Woah! Woah! Don’t forget the Tom Cruise Missile incident!

            • BFM

              JP is the godfather of all predictions regarding finances. Whenever he comes up with an analysis, I read carefully!

          • BFM

            That’s the million dollar question, will he make a run for it… or will he stay till the bitter end… I just don’t know.

        • Baby Mcgee

          Music to my ears darlin

        • Captain Howdy

          If it cost let’s say 100k a year to keep an org bare bones open and you times that by 100, that’s 10 million.

          That’s one donation by Duggan or her royal gooberness.

          • Baby Mcgee

            Well then there’s that..

          • BFM

            On this side of the ocean… the rent only is a multitude of the 100k for the spaces they have rented on A locations, then you have additional costs. And there are a lot more than 100 orgs and missions (true not 11 thousand… but still more then a hundred).

      • DannyBoy

        Vote early vote often

    • Couch_Incident

      Is it guilt/shame on the part of the EX-SO’s that they bailed on the billion year contract that drives them to be the must gung-ho? In other words, their status is dubious, so they overcompensate?

    • einsteinonthebeach

      Do those EX-SO have freeloader debt? If they do, it’s completely unenforceable.

      • BFM

        The ones still in paid them off…. you know.. the most ethical thing to do! And they shield themselves of any internet “entheta” and only trust information coming over church lines.

        They one’s that are used to spy on blogs like this are thoroughly screened and probably OSA holds some sensitive info on them to blackmail them might they wake up. Also the get regular metered checks so see if they are “clean” of CI’s against command intention.

        • einsteinonthebeach

          Blackmail is obviously illegal. They should go to LEA

          • BFM

            You are missing my point… they are voluntarily cooperating… OSA always keeps sensitive info on persons in risky positions… they might wake-up you know.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              Gotcha. Are you aware of any children at risk for harm because their parents are being brainwashed?

            • BFM

              Any kid with die hard clam parents is at risk. They get a Clam raising and are pushed and manipulated to do courses. The plus of the younger generation is that they DO roam the internet. Its something of their generation. So the clams pool to recruit clam kids is also declining but not eradicated.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              “Any kid with die hard clam parents is at risk. They get a Clam raising and are pushed and manipulated to do courses.”

              Let’s hope the risk will be eliminated soon. Thanks for your insights, BFM

            • BFM

              I hope so too, and you are welcome 🙂

            • einsteinonthebeach

              2015 hopefully will be the last year Scientology can hurt people.

            • BFM

              I hope that too Einstein, but more realistically it will take a couple of more years. But not that many, it might be sooner then we (realists/pessimists) expect. I do believe this year and perhaps the next will be that last ones where the cult grabs any sizable amount of cash from “services” i.e. auditing, training, NarCONon, WISE etc.

              From then on, it will be only whale money and own reserves that will keep the cult running.

              Now, how long the whales will stay on board while Miscavige will have to close facilities is anyone’s guess. But as soon as the whales bail out….. the end game begins.

            • einsteinonthebeach

              I’ll keep hoping the cult implodes sooner, along with stopping the disconnection of families. Thanks for your posts, BFM!

            • TheQueenofBulgravia

              What about the new field$ DM is Cult-ivating in Asia. Russia, ..and The Nation of Islam?

              (I have caek and popcorn for when NOI’s Farrakan tries to replace Semi-Source with himself–his SECURITY doesn’t ride bikes, they are probably too MUSCULAR to do so!)

              http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/oOZvTd6P9KM/maxresdefault.jpg

            • BFM

              Asia is a bust for scamatology… just Taiwan has something I believe. Russia was doing quite well actually, Moscow and saint Petersburg. But things have changed now, since Int management got more involved wanting a bigger piece of the pie (there was a ridiculous price increase of the Dianetics book that used to sell in huge volumes over there and was a feeder line to the missions / orgs — that went dead now). Apart from all that, Russia has Putin (a sort of DM times 1000) and with the growing nationalism and anti-western sentiments (scientology is seen as an American cult) Putin is not likely to tolerate any sort of growth of the cult in HIS country.

              Hahaha, I would love to see a man on man battle between the NOI and the Sciborgs. Farrakan in the ring with DM and his midget-karate…. how many seconds would DM last? LOL. The NOI guys are quite huge arn’t they? Scary types!

            • aquaclara

              The poor education and horrendous lack of a childhood, let alone ANY family life, is bound to affect the kids raised in the cult.

              Gut feel, do you have any sense for who leaves first in these die-hard families? The kids are the parents? Husband or wife?

            • BFM

              Yes, the no love/compassion type of raising with equally nonsensical values taught (i.e. sympathy is low on the tone scale, being gay is an aberration etc. etc.) do affects these children.

              What I have seen personally is that the children leave quicker. Simply because there is so much data available on the internet. Celebs acting weird, ambush vids going viral on YT. The children do go to school and have interaction with normal people. So even if the children are indoctrinated not to look at “entheta” some friend will come a long and tell them about xenu or some other thing the clams want to keep secret.

              As far as the husband/wife goes…. that’s a roll of the dice.

            • aquaclara

              Thank heavens, the kids wake up when they start to log in, look and listen. This is lousy for the fact that they are likely disconnected from their parents at some point, but at least they have their life as their own.

              Thank you.

        • pluvo

          “Also they get regular metered checks so see if they are “clean” of CI’s against command intention.”

          The Thought Police checking if they committed any thoughtcrime.

          • einsteinonthebeach

            LRH was a big fan of Orwell’s 1984

          • BFM

            The only way to keep them from being infected by the truth, since that is increasingly available everywhere! Soon, clams wont have to search the interwebz actively. The truth will just stream in their homes through HBO or the BBC 🙂

    • aquaclara

      I love stories like this. The open, candid conversation among friends about leaving, the difficulties and what’s so f*cked up about the cult tells me much more about the state of things than the actual numbers.

      Five years ago, these were not the conversations we would have heard about.

      Good job.

  • Sejanus

    Most $cientologists need to work on being just decently human before being super human.

  • Bryce Byerley

    You got my money…but you’d get a lot more donations if I could donate for the new IDEAL Underground Bunker. This website is good and the content is engaging…but what I really want is an Oiliness Table.

    • Baby Mcgee

      Welcome Bryce.. We often get Oily in here! Especially when we talk about the Slime that is David Miscabbitch

      • Jo

        McGee, very Irish Baby.

        • Baby Mcgee

          Yes.. I certainly Drink like I’m Irish..ha

          • Vaquera

            You did it! I’d stepped away for a while to watch hockey and football. New Year, New Avi. You are both daring and stylish Baby Mcgee.

            • Baby Mcgee

              Texas.. I don’t mess around! I walk the walk baby!

          • Jo

            I got this calendar posted on New Years Day, was weird cause the dog didn’t bark. Were all saved by August according to the quotes. lol, refresh
            Edit, look away or sideways.

            • Baby Mcgee

              OMG.. Now THAT is funny! hahhaha

            • Baby Mcgee

              Check up above.. Just opened my Fortune cookie..hahahha

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      We have the oiliness table…………but you have to be at the right point on your case to “observe” the oiliness table…
      Lets talk about your ruins……………….;-)

      • Bryce Byerley

        oh yeah….I am a degraded, DEGRADED being!

  • Baby Mcgee

    Someone mentioned Gibney Documentary Mea Maxima Culpa

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73BETyVxjbQ

    • nottrue

      Everytime I look at your AV I break into “Freedom just another word for nothing left to lose”

      • HTC

        Nothin, aint nothing honey if it aint freeee…

        • Baby Mcgee

          Nah Nah Nah nah nah nah nah..

          Nah, Nah ..Nah Nah Nah..

          • HTC

            I’m so rockin that tune right now…hurting my dogs’ ears

            • Vaquera

              Because you have the volume at 11, or because the dog is adverse to your musical stylings?

            • HTC

              that would be because my vocals are worse than Kris’ at this stage in my life, and he was kind of rough lol

      • Baby Mcgee

        ” I’d give all of my tomorrow’s for a single yesterday to be holding Bobby’s body next to me…”

        • nottrue

          We sang every song that driver knew

      • Jimmy3

        Kris Kristofferson wrote that song, and Bobby McGee was a woman.

        • Baby Mcgee

          YEP! We talked about that yesterday.. Lovin KK

          • HTC

            Break it…break another little piece of my heart now baby…
            ok now I’ll never get to sleep, may as well stay up and sing to my puppies

        • Baby Mcgee
          • nottrue
            • Baby Mcgee

              I can NOT hear that song without tears streaming down my face. Janis RIP.. age 27..Too Young..Just way, way too Fuckin young.

              You had your demons. Yep.. We all do..

            • Jimmy3

              The Curse of 27… Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Jim Morison, Brian Jones, Kurt Cobain, on and on..

            • Jimmy3

              Some guy from something called the Stooges, too. Is that a band?

            • Vaquera

              Amy Winehouse

            • Jimmy3

              Someone should’ve tried to talk her into rehab.

            • Vaquera

              No. No. No.

              Eta : Or maybe they did, but it was Scientological and her original lyrics were Narco-no-no-no.

            • Baby Mcgee

              I ain’t got the time and if my daddy thinks I’m fine

            • Todd Tomorrow

              Her Dad and Mother got her in a few times. She’d do fine for a bit and then hit the liquor again. i knew a girl from my home town that died of alcohol poisonimg. Like Amy she was thin and short, however, was always in a great mood. Doesn’t take much when you’re that small.

            • 1subgenius
            • Jack99

              Nick Drake, almost — he was 26.

            • Vaquera

              Every time I drive through Beaumont,/Port Arthur I think of her and shake my head in amazement that she grew up in that port town, as did Babe Didrikson Zaharias. Talk about your opposites!

        • Vaquera

          In the mid-70s, I was lucky enough to have a back stage pass to one of his concerts. I met him (along with Rita Coolidge) and my 15 year old knees went weak when he kissed me on the cheek. I’d like to say I never washed it again, but hygiene ruled and then, you know, along came Woody.

          • Baby Mcgee

            Weak? I would have fainted on the spot.. ( Woody..hahahha)

            • Vaquera

              (I threw that in just for you, hon.)

          • DannyBoy

            I met Rita at the now gone Crystal Pistol in Chicago’s old town early seventies. My knees had a similar reaction.

    • Eclipse-girl

      That is a great interview.

      I know I have pushing this particular documentary here.
      I found it very moving.
      I found the actions of the catholic church very disturbing.

  • 1subgenius

    That Mathers guy is a major liaison to the Nation of Islam.

    • Jimmy3

      A white guy is a major liaison to the NoI?

      • 1subgenius

        I’ve seen pictures of him at many CoS/NoI events.

  • Baby Mcgee

    So I eat Chinese tonight.. Opened my Fortune Cookie.. Check it out..

    ” You are fighting evil and will prevail..”

    Good Golly Miss Molly That truly is a sign.

    • BFM

      You could start your own fortune cookie religion 🙂

      • Baby Mcgee

        Hahhahaha.. Tax Exempt BFM ..

        • BFM

          Of course, 1st amendment Baby! Why wouldn’t it not apply to a cookie religion? Besides it will be serving public interest a helluva lot more than the Clampire does 🙂

      • pluvo

        The cookie monster will be your god?

        • BFM

          “will be”? The cookie monster IS god! Tax-exemption now on those cookies! lol 🙂

          • pluvo

            And then … cookies of the world unite… power to the cookies

        • Baby Mcgee

          xoxoox Where is Cookie Monster? hmmmm

          • BFM

            Look in your cookie jar 🙂

        • BFM

          I answered anyway ha! 😉

          • pluvo

            🙂

    • Jo

      I’ve never had a fortune cookie, but I’ve seen them in the movies. O/T. have you watched Foxcatcher? McSavage and John E, du Pont have a scary resemblant.

      • Baby Mcgee

        Not yet.. but I want to.. I saw a trailer for it.. Ugh.. Miscabbage ugh, ugh

      • Baby Mcgee

        JOJO.. WHHHHHHHHHat? You have never eaten a fortune cookie? That is so unAmerican.

        • Jo

          Nope, never had or seen a fortune cookie.I imagine they are like prawn crackers?

          • Baby Mcgee

            No more like a wafer .. Go to a Chinese Restaurant and ask for one. Inside is a little piece of paper and it is your fortune. It’s fun. Night honey..yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

            • Jo

              Night Baby, loads of Chinese restaurants here, no fortune cookies. They must be cheap feckers here. Night, sweet dreams x

      • L. Wrong Hubturd

        Communist! But, you know John du Pont? The Bunker is a strange place.

    • Whoa!!! Like my Christmas one—You are surrounded by true friends! We are getting Bunker Fortune Cookie TRUTHS!!!

  • Baby Mcgee

    Night all.. Keep the noise down. See you in the AM

    • BFM

      sweet cookie dreams baby xoxo

    • aegerprimo

      Goodnight cutie pie! See ya at the Sunday Funnies.

    • DannyBoy

      Night Pearl

      • Baby Mcgee

        Oh I like that Danny.. ; 0

    • NOLAGirl

      Night Baby, sleep well. I am headed in the same direction. Meet you at the coffee pot in the morning. 🙂

  • aegerprimo

    Has anyone seen this article in the Tampa Bay Times yet today?

    Church of Scientology works behind scenes against Clearwater Marine Aquarium
    http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/church-of-scientology-works-behind-the-scenes-against-clearwater-marine/2212336/

    “The only thing the Church of Scientology cares about in Clearwater is keeping pesky non-Scientologists away from its buildings,” said Mike Rinder, a former high-level Scientology executive who now criticizes church leadership. “The church wants to make sure that downtown Clearwater continues to be the nice, quiet, no-one-around-to-bother-us town that it has become.”

    In public, the church is not opposing the aquarium’s plans.

    “We’re not pro- or anti- the aquarium,” Scientology spokeswoman Pat Harney wrote to Clearwater officials. “We just have questions and are pointing out facts.”

    Behind the scenes, it’s a different story.

    “The message was pretty clear to me. They didn’t want an aquarium downtown,” said County Commissioner Charlie Justice, who recently received a visit from Scientology officials.

    • madame duran

      Creepy as hell.

      Clearwater City Council has been kissing CoS butt for years. It is fully aware of its residents’ distrust and anger towards the cult. They’ve been repeatedly warned of the cult’s tactics yet gave it so many breaks and leeways. This is a perfect illustration of the saying, “If you lie down with dogs, don’t be surprised to wake up with fleas”.

      The cult’s official reason for resisting the aquarium should be that Winter the dolphin was a psych in a previous life and had committed many crimes, hence the church’s wariness.

    • pluvo

      FYI – Mike Rinder wrote this article on his blog in October:

      “Clearwater Belongs To Us, Wogs Not Welcome”

      http://www.mikerindersblog.org

    • I can’t believe they raised traffic as an issue. What, it disturbs the tumbleweeds?!

      Church officials declined to comment to the Tampa Bay Times. But they’ve told county commissioners the church believes downtown is more suitable for retail development. They raised concerns about traffic.

      And they seem to have hired a Jim Lynch clone:

      According to aquarium supporters, the aquarium recently got a visit from a Scientology-employed reporter who said the church had an accountant and an economist reviewing the nonprofit’s IRS filings and its feasibility study for its proposed facility.

      Yeah, that’s not outrageous and creepy…

  • Vanfan

    I’m watching Hairspray and struck at the resemblance between Travolta’s Edna Turnblat and Kirstie Alley. could Travolta and Alley be the same person?

  • Free Minds, Free Hearts

    Happy New Year! I have been off the grid on vacation and missed the bunkeroos and bunkerettes. I really miss the Bunker when I can’t get my daily fix. I can hardly wait until January 12!!! What a good idea to revisit the donations button – yay! I will be happy to put a check in the mail to Tony tomorrow.

  • 8 days.

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+Notice +–+ RED X ***

    For those who do not have much time but would like to send a message to JJ in Boston and Tony Chen here are the links for Sacramento Riverpark mission.
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/bbb?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/ccc?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/eee?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=%22916+925+2545%22%7C%22916+519+5287%22%7C%223825+marconi%22%7C%22scientology+of+riverpark%22
    If you like to do ALL Sacramento (about 100 ads) go to the Regional list of the RedX spreadsheet. (see link below).

    James aka JJ and Gregory are spamming again after a break of a few months, find them in the Regional List or the Last 4 Days!
    Remember the RRT (Reboot router tech) as explained in the tips of the Last 4 Days tab on the RedX Google doc : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

  • Pierrot

    *** RED X +–+ RED X +–+ RED X +–+ RED X *** FunSunday the 4th of January

    Good morning Night Owls and Early Birds,
    The score for yesterday is 55 new or refreshed ads bringing our Last 4 Days DOWN from 369 to 305 and the 7 days Regional List UP from 538 to 541.
    RedX write up : https://whyweprotest.net/threads/taking-down-co-on-craigslist-co-ads-on-craigslist.113779/page-117#post-2494321
    RedX spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Kvg78kCcvo5gL7UfPcmhmbsagTNtdj0y2LAiHVFrCU/pubhtml

    FREELOADER Debt is ILLEGAL and CAN’T BE ENFORCED.
    DON’T route out, BLOW, Get HELP, get OUT. CALL 1-866-XSEAORG

    Lasahido, enhanced for RedX by DodoTheLaser, flickred by Aegerprimo https://www.flickr.com/photos/120371503@N05/14982684339/in/set-72157642802079293

    • Graham

      Thanks for the morning reminder. What better way to start the day than flagging scam ads for courses on “personal integrity” (Ha! what a sick joke that is), ads for fake personality tests and ads from unqualified culties claiming expertise in mental health problems.

    • Hamtaro

      This ad needs to come off, it’s for TV repair, not Scn: http://chico.craigslist.org/eld/4830803660.html

      • Pierrot

        fixed, thanks

  • just a test comment to see if something would work! 🙂 (i edited that out! 😉

    MORNING!!

    • 1subgenius

      (third grade class voices)
      “GOOD MORNING MISS TIA”

      • LOL!! 🙂 Nothing like starting the day off with a smile!

  • 1subgenius

    (Already posted below)
    Fair game/dead agenting the aquarium.

    Church of Scientology works behind scenes against Clearwater Marine Aquarium

    Does the Church of Scientology just want downtown Clearwater all to itself?

    That’s the question people are asking now that Scientology, the biggest property owner downtown, is working behind the scenes to fight the Clearwater Marine Aquarium’s plans to move there.

    The campaign has become increasingly aggressive. The church has brought in an accountant, an economist and an investigative reporter to dig into the nonprofit aquarium’s financial projections and its animal-care history, according to aquarium supporters.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/church-of-scientology-works-behind-the-scenes-against-clearwater-marine/2212336

    • fair gaming an aquarium….that perfectly sums it up….well as does dead agenting….of course they want it all to themselves!! and the “animal care history”…..uh let’s bring in an accountant to examine THEIR books and investigate their people care history!

      • 1subgenius

        It looks like maybe, just maybe, city officials are waking up.

        To be against something so benign as an aquarium. And do it with lies.

        And lie about doing it. “No, we’re not for or against. We’re just asking questions.”

        Had to laugh at this one:
        “Also, businesses owned by Scientologists employ hundreds of non-Scientologists, the church points out.”

        Think someone will fact-check that one?

        (I still haven’t gotten a definitive answer on what those hundreds of zombies being bussed around and housed actually do. )

        • Yeah, at least FINALLY it seems city officials are waking up that they CANNOT work with them, and that they do indeed want all of downtown for themselves. That’s gotta be difficult for them to realize, I suppose. I mean, they’ve been told for YEARS this, can find evidence of their tactics online, yet they were in denial.

          I saw that too and also wondered about that. WHAT sci-owned businesses employee hundreds of non-sci?? Or is that a factoid in their tailored study by that university who chucked ethics and unbiased researched into the trash for a check?

          They canNOT have lots and lots of ‘wogs’ in downtown as they’d have to change how they act. Also people will see their extensive security cameras, security measures, etc via public sidewalks and wonder what’s up with that. It also gives people the chance to get too close to their buildings and oh dear, can’t have sci’s having an easy escape!!

          “We’re just asking questions”—so like Eric Cartman in Dances with Smurfs and his questions about Wendy during the news….Raise concerns, controversy, get people to rally against; BUT scis don’t realize most are aware of how they operate!! This should, hopefully, be a big foot bullet!

        • Ardent

          Well, isn’t it obvious, 1sub? They spend their time being bussed around and being housed. It’s called ’cause over a life’.

    • Ardent

      What a bunch of bucket-heads.

  • Lincolnbot

    Such a great line!
    “If any single Scientologist had achieved even the slightest superhuman power there is no way that I would still be standing, over three decades from my first published complaint. Nor would the Guardian’s Office have needed to steal a ton of government documents, if they could have simply ‘exteriorized’ and noted down the content of every file cabinet.”

  • Mockingbird

    I have done a lot of looking at the same ideas Jon Atack does , although nowhere near as extensively . I have a new blog for anyone interested and still tons of stuff at ESMB too .
    My new blog is Mockingbird’s Nest Please check it out and let me know what you think !
    http://mbnest.blogspot.com/

  • Mockingbird

    I enjoyed Jon Atack’s article and wrote a post at my blog reflecting my thoughts on the issues he raises above :http://mbnest.blogspot.com/2015/02/mockingbirds-nest-empty-well.html

  • Anna

    Scientology and other cults are like the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter: you take a look into them, and you see your heart’s deepest desires, the reflection is fascinating, but it’s impossible to grab and take it, the more desperately you’re trying, the more likely you’ll break the glass and hurt yourself.

    These quotes from the Prof. Dumbledore fit perfectly, you could simply replace “this mirror” by “Scientology”:

    “However, this mirror will give us neither knowledge or truth. Men have
    wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven
    mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible.”

    “It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember
    that.”

    • Dee Findlay-DeElizabethan

      Anna, I like that.