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HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

HOW SCIENTOLOGY COERCED A CHILD TO HAVE AN ABORTION: THE LAURA DECRESCENZO FILES

—————- In anticipation of her biggest day in court yet, Laura DeCrescenzo and her attorneys hit the Church of Scientology with 928 pages of new filings —————- Details from 18,000 pages of evidence show how Scientology manipulated a child to keep her working under slave-like conditions —————- A key document describing DeCrescenzo’s unwillingness to have her coerced abortion is missing from the evidence Scientology was ordered to produce By Tony Ortega Wednesday afternoon, Laura DeCrescenzo filed explosive new information in her four-year legal odyssey against the Church of Scientology, submitting 928 pages of new declarations and exhibits in anticipation of a crucial October 23 hearing in her lawsuit against the church which alleges abuse, including allegations that she was forced to have an abortion at only 17 years of age. Key to the new filings is information gleaned from thousands of pages of previously secret files that the church fought mightily to keep under wraps. But on Monday, the U.

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BBC Tracks Down Audio of 7-Year-Old Scientologist Neil Gaiman

OceanCoverA year ago, we told you about a surprising discovery made by Paulette Cooper when she was looking through Patty Moher’s collection of Scientology materials during a gathering at Patty’s house in Connecticut — Paulette stumbled on a pamphlet put out by the church in 1969 that featured an interview with a 7-year-old Neil Gaiman.

The interview was a transcript of a 1968 BBC radio show which featured the young Gaiman, who had been kicked out of a school because of his family’s affiliation with Scientology. A year later, the church included the transcript in a political pamphlet because Scientology was under attack in Parliament, and the young Neil made such a fine example of a budding member of the organization.

At the time, we hoped someone at the BBC could track down the original audio of Neil’s interview, and we asked again in June, when Neil’s new book, The Ocean at the End of the Lane, was published.

And now, someone at the BBC has found the audio!

A reader let us know that Monday afternoon, Gaiman did an hourlong interview on BBC Radio 5′s show “Daily Bacon,” and during it, guest host Colin Paterson revealed that the audio of Neil’s 1968 interview had been found, and a short segment of it was played for him. Here’s the relevant segment…

 

 
At the end of the segment, you hear Gaiman handle (rather deftly) an interesting question about his relationship with members of his family still in Scientology…

Colin: You’ve made it clear that you are not a Scientologist, but that your family members are, including your sister Lizzy, who is thanked at the back of the book. How tricky a situation is that?

Neil: It’s not tricky. It’s family. You know, families are all…they’re interesting, they’re glorious, they drive you nuts. They’re families. I don’t know anybody who doesn’t have one.

 
As we pointed out in our story about The Ocean at the End of the Lane in June, Gaiman is still surrounded by family members who are among the most fanatical Scientologists in the world — from his mother, who continues to give huge amounts to the church, to his sister Lizzy who has spoken about Scientology for Channel 4 in the UK, and whose son, Alessandro Calcioli, is challenging the UK’s prohibition against Scientology “religious” weddings, to Neil’s ex-wife, who runs a Scientology “Ideal Org” in Minnesota.

Neil himself was a dedicated member of the church until sometime in the 1980s, as best we can determine. To get a sense of how early his training had started, here again is the full transcript of his 1968 BBC Radio interview…

 

Neil Gaiman, 7-years-old, Radio Interview BBC Radio ‘World at Weekend’, August 1968.

Keith Graves: What is Scientology?
Neil: It is an applied philosophy dealing with the study of knowledge.

Keith Graves: Do you know what philosophy is?
Neil: I used to, but I’ve forgotten.

Keith Graves: Who told you that meaning of Scientology?
Neil: In clearer words, it’s a way to make the able person more able.

Keith Graves: What does it do for you — Scientology — does it make you feel a better boy?
Neil: Not exactly that, but when you make a release you feel absolutely great.

Keith Graves: Do you get what you call a release very often, or do you have this all the time?
Neil: Well, you only keep a release all the time when you get Clear. I’m six courses away from Clear.

Keith Graves: You’re on a particular grade are you?
Neil: Well, I’ve just passed Grade I; I’m not Grade II yet.

Keith Graves: What is Grade I?
Neil: Problems Release.

Keith Graves: And what does this mean to you, Problems Release?
Neil: It helps you to handle quite a lot of problems.

Keith Graves: What problems do you have as a little boy that this helps you with?
Neil: Only one big problem.

Keith Graves: What’s that?
Neil: My friend Stephen.

Keith Graves: Oh, I see. Is he a Scientologist?
Neil: Yes.

Keith Graves: But I mean, how does this grade that you’ve got, Problems Release, help you to deal with Stephen?
Neil: Well, you know, I’ve dealed with every single problem except Stephen, one thing Problems Release can’t help me to handle.

Keith Graves: So you still fight with Stephen?
Neil: It’s more of a question he fights with me.

Keith Graves: He’s older than you, presumably.
Neil: Yes.

Keith Graves: And he’s three grades ahead of you?
Neil: In a way, but you see, there are six main courses; but there are ever so many in-between courses. I’ve just finished three, and that’s Engrams.

Keith Graves: What are Engrams?
Neil: Engrams are a mental image picture containing pain and unconsciousness.

Keith Graves: And what does this mean to you?
Neil: Well, shall I tell you? — I’ll give you a demonstration. You’re walking along the street, and a car hooted and somebody shouted, “shooo’, and a dog barked, and you tripped over a bit of metal and hurt your knee. Three years later, say, you were walking along that same place and someone shouted “shooo”, and a car hooted, and a dog barked, and suddenly you feel pain in your knee. I’ve had one Engram that I can remember. I was jumping off the television set. We’ve got a gigantic television set, but it doesn’t work. Onto my mom’s bed and, you see, I jumped and I hit my head on the chandelier, and you know it really hurt; and I looked up and I saw it swinging, and a few minutes later I tried to test an Engram, so I set it swinging and I looked up there, and I suddenly had a headache.

Keith Graves: And how old were you when this happened?
Neil: Around three months ago.

Keith Graves: Oh, I see. How long have you been studying Scientology?
Neil: I started at five, now I’m seven.

Keith Graves: Seven years old. Extraordinary, isn’t it?

 
We tend to believe Neil that he’s no longer a member of Scientology, and he hasn’t been for many years. If he still doesn’t really get into his thoughts about Scientology today, it’s important to remember that if he did, it would make it very difficult for his family members to remain in contact with him — if he were to criticize Scientology at all, they would be forced to “disconnect” from him.

At this point, we need to put in a note in anticipation of the predictable angry response from a few people who are convinced that Gaiman and his wife, musician Amanda Palmer, are “stealth” members of Scientology, based on weak and unconvincing evidence — in particular a 2009 Scientology newsletter.

Gaiman and Mary McGrath filed for divorce in 2007 and it was finalized in 2008. In a 2009 church newsletter, there’s a listing of a donation of $35,000 by “Neil and Mary Gaiman.” We’ve seen no convincing evidence that Neil actually had anything to do with it, and that it was listed that way even though Mary gave the money. She has continued to give money to the church, but blaming Neil for that seems to be a reach. They’re divorced. Mary Gaiman can spend her money any way she wants.

The other “evidence” that Gaiman and Palmer are secret members of the church (particularly in the case of Palmer) is even more unconvincing.

Anyway, we hope the BBC sees fit to release the entire audio of Neil Gaiman’s 1968 interview. It’s a gas!

 
——————–

Bryan Seymour

Bryan Seymour

FAIR WARNING DOWN UNDER

To our Aussie readers, we wanted to point out that you may have begun seeing promos on 7 News for a big story this Monday that will be released simultaneously here at the Underground Bunker and on Today Tonight featuring Bryan Seymour.

It’s a story we’ve worked on together for several months, and we expect it to be an eye-opener. Speaking of which, we’ll be asking readers on this side of the globe to crack open their peepers at the ungodly hour of 5 am, which will be at the same time Seymour’s segment airs at a more decent hour in Australia.

Yes, we know: 5 am on LABOR DAY. It’s a ridiculous time for a big story, but we wanted to coordinate things with Aussie TV, so there you go.

 
——————–

Posted by Tony Ortega on August 30, 2013 at 07:00

E-mail your tips and story ideas to tonyo94@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter. We post behind-the-scenes updates at our Facebook author page. Here at the Bunker we try to have a post up every morning at 7 AM Eastern (Noon GMT), and on some days we post an afternoon story at around 2 PM. After every new story we send out an alert to our e-mail list and our FB page.

If you’d like to help support The Underground Bunker, please e-mail our webmaster Scott Pilutik at BunkerFund@tonyortega.org

 

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  • Nevermore

    I think that’s 10am UK time, so fine by me! Young Master Gaiman sounds like a bright kid parroting back the stuff he’s learned by rote, but not really understood. Quite chilling.

    • Missionary Kid

      It’s after noon, U.K. time. They have their version of daylight savings time. When it’s 7 in Eastern Daylight time, add 5 to get UK time. You add 8 to PDT.

      I noticed that as a child, Neil’s whole orientation was to “handle” his friend.

      • Nevermore

        Ta! And yes, the whole ‘handling’ his friend thing is incredibly sad. I only remember ‘having fun’ with mine, with the occasional ‘falling out’. What a vile way to distort a kid’s life.

      • Ciru

        Assuming that the 5am mentioned is Eastern US time, it’s 10am UK/Ireland.

      • Studious Judious

        In case anyone is curious about Daylight Savings Time, and just how screwed up humans can make things…

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4

        • Minion Gayle

          It’s too early in the morning to discuss daylight savings time. Especially sober.

        • Robert Eckert

          There used to be counties in Indiana which avoided the daylight savings shifts, which made for various confusions. David Letterman had a classic joke in 1999 about how the Y2K bug was going to play out in Indiana: “Nobody in Indiana will be sure whether they are 100 years and one hour off, or 99 years, 364 days, and 23 hours off.”

    • Jerseygram

      Not so different from when I was a child in Catechism classes, where we parroted back the stuff we learned by rote from the Baltimore Catechism, with only some understanding. Having said that, I do think Scientology is a chillingly dangerous and insidious cult.

      • aquaclara

        Well, except for the fact that there is no faith, hope or charity in Scientology. And that neither LRH or COB are just, holy OR merciful in any tiny way. Oh, and they are not God, nor saintly.
        It’s really more like the Baltimore Catechism if the devil got a hold of the questions and changed all the answers. IMHO.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          I could write volumes about christian charity and the good graces it kept the regards of donating people in the church, most of it is never reaches the truly needy.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Then you belong to the wrong church and should be more careful where you put your faith and money.. My church buys coats for homeless people.. Pays rent for unemployed people.. Maintains a food closet for people who need it.. If I weren’t working, I could spend another 3 hours listing things my church does to help..

            Not all faithful are in it for the money.. Say it with me.. Not all faithful are in it for the money..

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              You have obviously not looked at places like Ireland and Quebec, Canada where the catholic church held people virtually hostage to the pulpit for socio-political reasons, and that is a historical fact.
              I speak of my experience, yours may be a lot more compassionate and true to avowed christian principle which is good, however you can rest assured that there a legion of lapsed catholics who have similar experiences as mine.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I believe you.. And wrongs should be righted.. I know there’s many horrible things happening in the world at any given minute.. It makes me thankful for my own circumstances..

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Me too.

            • CraftLass

              The way I see it, the RCC is a lot like the USA. The Vatican is the federal government, the archdiocese are states, and parishes are cities and towns. There are some great parishes who give a lot to their community (meaning both members and the larger local sort). I’ve been a member of a few parishes and each was very, very different regarding charity and community service. Of course, no matter what, they need to send money “up the lines” as well, and that is where it gets really murky. Just as there are local, state, and federal taxes, your money will be divided between all these layers of the Church.

              Whoopi Goldberg wrote something to the effect of, “Want to help poor people? Sell the Pieta!” Lady’s got a point.

              Charity with conditions. Is that really charity at all?

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Absolutely! Ideally Charity is humble, discreet and given directly to those in need.
              That is the golden rule that is too often ignored.

            • joan nieman

              That, too, is true Marie Claire Wolf. This is where the people differ…the robots who don’t question the faith, or the informed and intelligent who look for answers.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Oh! I do not belong to any church.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Quite honestly, until a few months ago, I hadn’t been to church for years except for baptisms, weddings and funerals.. Then, the night Midwest Mom got so upset, I realized what I was missing out on.. Turns out, watching her fight her battle made me realize how much it meant to me.. So, Midwest Mom, if you’re listening, thank you..

            • aquaclara

              Derek talks to her. He can tell her – I’m sure it would mean a great deal to her. This was a really nice thing to say.

              The positive influences in our lives, both big and small, are the ones that we carry forward with us on our brightest days. The negative, on the darkest days. I’m all about the sunshine.

            • joan nieman

              You are right, Sugarplumfairy, some churches help a great deal. It is organized charity.

      • Nevermore

        ‘Who made me?’ ;-)

        • sugarplumfairy

          God made me..

          Why did God make me?

          • Nevermore

            God made me to know him, to love him and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next. (sorry about that God!)

            To whose image and likeness did God make you?

            • sugarplumfairy

              I think at this point, I was flirting with Robert Viscount, who sat next to me in second grade.. Can’t remember anything else..

            • Nevermore

              Me neither – my mother, however, can do about 25 questions, and she’s 73!

            • sugarplumfairy

              That’s impressive! Or scary….

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              I opt for scary.

            • Nevermore

              She just told me I’m exaggerating, she can only remember about 10 of them now, so I stand corrected!

              Does $cientology have an equivalent ‘cathechism’?

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yah.. Anything ever written by lrh..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              why yes, yes they do.
              http://i41.tinypic.com/2r38u43.jpg

              And just like in catechism (hee) you have to Drill Baby Drill!

              [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/t0kayh.png[/IMG]

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I gave our parish priest Holy Hell in 1st grade catechism classes. I had questions. A Lot of questions, damn it. Even at that young age, I could spot contrary statements. Fortunately for me, we got an Irish priest with a sense of humor and a flask for a replacement by 3rd grade or I would Not have made it alive to Communion or 2nd grade.

            • CraftLass

              I was the same! Ha! Love it that someone else experienced that so young. And I too had an excellent priest who was willing to help me work through my questions. He was very disappointed that those questions eventually led me away, but he said he’d rather have me ask questions than blindly follow his church, that faith without question is not true faith. He was a hero to this kid, struggling to exist in Catholic school and surrounded by kids who simply accepted whatever adults told them. I have trouble relating to people who automatically believed, even as children, what parents or authority figures said. Baffling. Adults contradict themselves all the time! How can any child not see that by 5-7, at the very least?

      • Marie Claire Wolf

        And were shamed into parting with our pocket money to ‘buy’ little Chinese unbaptised children. I got really pissed off when, at age 7, an uncle of mine was telling me about Chinese history and now being a communist country that had forbidden religious practices. A bright light went up in my head! From that day on no nun, priest, or mom of dad could keep me quiet and hypocritically going along, which was my bargain with my parents: “You think how you want but be a good girl and do as asked.” No siree!

    • Phil McKraken

      He is parroting it back by rote, and probably without fully understanding it. But I have to say, he still sounds just as sensible and knowledgeable as any adult I’ve ever heard trying to explain Scientology. I guess with this material, you can reach the height of comprehensibility at age 7.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Amen.

      • Orglodyte

        “…with this material, you can reach the height of comprehensibility at age 7.” Beautiful observation. In some areas maybe a little older. The full-on space opera worldview feels like about age 13 to me. I’ve thought before that LRH was stuck at three or four emotionally and 12 or 13 intellectually. Perhaps that’s part of why all those pre-teen messengers.

  • DodoTheLaser

    Considering what Neil had to live through and what he said and wrote – I will NEVER make fun of his hair.
    In fact, mine looks almost exactly the same in the mornings.

  • EnthralledObserver

    *puts down computer long enough to pay attention to television set that kids normally rule* :D I lurve Bryan Seymour… and look forward to him teaming up with the other hunky investigative journalist that tops my daily reading list. ;)
    When is this airing… I better look it up and ‘book’ it into my schedule…

    • tetloj

      Google says labor Day US 2013 is Mon Sept 2, so I guess it’s Today Tonight Monday night. I’m in the West so looks like I will get my first look on the Bunker.

      • Robert Eckert

        Monday morning in the US is Sunday evening in Australia.

  • Observer

    This makes me want to sit and weep for all the children whom Scientology robbed of their childhoods, filling the only potentially carefree time of their lives with misery and inculcating them with the gibberings of a misogynist lunatic. I despise L. Ron Hubbard with every fiber of my being.

    THIS CULT NEEDS TO END.

    • Marie Claire Wolf

      Funny how Neil was never declared and seems not cut off from contact with his family, could it be that becoming a recognized Sci-Fi writer afforded him some slacking of Co$ iron -clad disconnection rule; it’s puzzling that a few (very few to be sure) are allowed that privilege.

      • Nevermore

        Not to mention hypocritical.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Thank you!

      • Eclipse-girl

        Does anyone know what NG’s ex-wife does?

      • DamOTclese2

        More likely the money that the family members hand over to the crime syndicate is why he was never “declared” and ordered to “disconnect.”

      • Racnad

        Disconnection is not an iron-clad rule. I have family members who are still Scientologists and we still communicate, visit on holidays etc. We are not celebrities, nor is anyone in my family wealthy. I once had debates with these family members, but in recent years we just don’t up the topic because it creates bad feelings and no one likes that.
        From what I can tell, disconnection happens when one of the following is true: 1) A party is in the Sea Org, 2) a party joins a “squirrel group” or publically becomes an anti-Scientology activist, or 3) someone is persistent in trying to educate or persuade the Scientologist to quit.
        Just like the Gaiman family, no one in my family is currently in the Sea Org (my ex-SO relatives “routed out” years ago), no one is publically identified as a critic, and apparently no one is making drama over the issue within the family. Yes, I comment here, but for all we know Neil Gaiman does too under a fake name.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Thank for enlightening me: wog I am.

        • Robert Eckert

          If you posted here under your real name, the situation would certainly change, or if you tried to remain anonymous but revealed enough details about your story that OSA could figure out who you are (ask Derek about that).

          • Racnad

            That may be true. Like I said, the situation for those who publically identify themselves as critics may be different. I’ve commented here and at OCMB years ago, but never under my real name. I’m less worried about being identified now because there are so many former Scientologists on the Internet and fewer OSA resources to track them all down.

    • Captain Howdy

      Whether it be christianity or communism, people have been indoctrinating their children in one crazy ass ridiculous faith or ideology since civilization began, and it needs to stop but I have no idea how this is possible..

      • sugarplumfairy

        I was indoctrinated into Catholicism pretty strongly by my parents and their catholic accomplices.. The result of their conspiracy is eight highly functioning, fairly intelligent, free-thinking, kind, socially responsible and extremely attractive adults.. Ok, I exaggerated the last one, but the rest is true..

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Glad it made you attractive;-) But I have to give my convent education some kudos: it made me hyper-sceptical, a seeker of knowledge and extremely aware of my own personal integrity that must be guarded by exercising my critical faculties. So you win some ground when you stay true to self.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Exactly..

          • aquaclara

            ….and of course, we are all well-grounded in our times tables, remember most of our grammar lessons, and have a practiced hand with penmanship, to boot!

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Yep! Penmanship was hard for me, grade school was partly in France where the penmanship taught was not Palmer method infused, so I had a terrible time to adjust when back on the American continent. Not fun.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              And the bruises do wear off!

            • Poison Ivy

              First thing MrPI asked when we looked into Catholic school for LittlePI, “I got hit a lot. Do they still do that?” The school officials were aghast – laws are different today. You can’t even look at a kid funny anymore. Even in Catholic school.
              Everywhere but…Scientology!

            • coonellie

              Oh, that brings back memories of the nuns with their rulers in primary school…palms up, on the desk, cringing and wanting to pull them in. Of course, I never had that punishment inflicted on me (honest!), but the boys sure got a lot of it. Truth be told, most of them deserved it ;). This was in Eire in the late 70′s.

          • Studious Judious

            Amen sister!

            I consider myself an agnostic. I used to say atheist until I was convinced that it is the same leap of faith to say there is no god as it is to say there is a god.

            Basically I just don’t know if there is or isn’t a god. So I’ll use what evidence I have that can be proved unequivocally. I guess that makes me faithless.

            I’d rather put my faith in people that in a supreme being.

            I sometimes imagine that if I were a god, and I created a planet of intelligent creatures would I want, or care if they believed in, or worshiped me? If I answer yes to that question, then I feel kinda shallow.

            So my philosophy is be nice to others, and try to learn as much as I can. And of course to do that I need to survive. But, is my survival more important that someone else’s survival? This is where things start to get tricky….

            • EnthralledObserver

              It’s like you dived in and read my mind… spooky.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              If you put your faith in people they will always let you down. Whether they mean to or not.

            • Studious Judious

              I guess it depends on which people you put faith in. I know of people that I can put my faith in with a 100% assurance that I will not be let down. I also know people that I know will let me down without question. It doesn’t mean I love either one more or less.

            • CraftLass

              Well said! You know? Even some of the flakiest people I know are dependable in their own ways. People have disappointed me far less than any belief system. Remember, even if you believe in a higher power, if you belong to any form of religious group, you are putting faith in human beings. Without faith in people it is very difficult to exist on this planet and it would be very, very lonely.

            • villagedianne

              Not people in one’s personal life, but I think your statement applies to the great majority of politicians and religious leaders.

            • Once_Born

              A certain stoic philosopher sums it up for me:

              “Live a good life.
              If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
              If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
              If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
              I am not afraid”.

              Marcus Aurelius

            • Poison Ivy

              One of my favorite quotes about religion.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Atheism is a statement of disbelief in all gods and goddesses.

              It is not a statement about the existence or non existence of any gods or goddess

              You can be an agnostic atheist.

            • Studious Judious

              I love this place, learn something every day.

            • Eclipse-girl

              so do I.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I replied once, “so do I.” but is seems to have been lost.

            • Missionary Kid

              Some people in religious circles tried to make a big deal out of Christopher Hitchens statement towards the end of his life that there may be a god, but he’d always held that view, because he said that he couldn’t make an absolute statement about the existence or non existence of a divine being if there was even a 0.00001% chance he was wrong.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Yes, I am a gnostic atheist in that I am sure no gods or goddesses exist. I understand and recognize the agnostic atheist and have no problem with it.

              I understand there will never be scientific proof of the existence or non existence of a super natural being.

              There is no such scientific proof of the existence or non existence of vampires, faeries, unicorns etc. Most people accept that these things do not exist. I have just applied that logical reasoning to all gods and goddesses.

              To those of you who believe in a christian god, or another type of god or goddess, I am NOT trying to fight you.

              You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe as long as you don’t others

            • Missionary Kid

              As I would say to my preacher father, “It’s all a matter of faith,” then I would refuse to get into any debate or discussion with him by repeating it.

            • Erica

              Studious judious…if you’re a reader check out “The Miracle Detective”. It is one of the most profoundly interesting books I have ever read, perfect for any agnostic/atheist/religious people out there with a questioning and open mind. It’s about a athiest writer (phenomenol writer, can’t think of his name!) who sets out to investigate the so called “miracles” of the Catholic Church, and the results are shocking. Not what you expect. And what I loved was he never, ever tells you what to think, he struggles right along side the reader. This is one of those beloved books I will read again and again over the years, when I think my view on life has become too narrow.

            • CraftLass

              In Penn Jillette’s “God No! Signs You May Already Be an Atheist” he sums up atheism’s philosophy in 3 little words, “I don’t know.” His argument is that if you have anything less than 100% faith in a higher power, you are an atheist. Every single thoughtful atheist is agnostic (as opposed to the types who don’t believe out of a lack of questioning in the first place). Thoughtful people know that you can’t actually disprove the existence of a deity, therefore there is always that tiny chance that one may exist and we must allow for that. I have never found an atheist who isn’t willing to concede at least a 0.000001% chance that he or she is wrong.

              To me, agnosticism is more of a phase on the way to either faith or lack of such. An exploration of belief systems, philosophies, etc. that is intended to help one find personal answers. But, at some point, that usually turns into leaning one way or another.

              Atheism is not faith that there is no god/higher power. It’s a lack of 100% belief in a higher power and nothing more.

              And now you will have me pondering your survival question all day. :-) Oh, gosh, and that question about if you were a god? I’m so with you!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            My catholic school education was superior. Don’t know what it is like today.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Private catholic schools are still excellent, my family and friends have opted for these to make sure their kids are afforded easy access to college & universities. That is, in my neck of the woods, I cannot speak of elsewhere in the world.

            • Erica

              I attended catholic schools, and the experience was great. I now send my six year old to the same school with my younger one to follow. I

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              See, there has been progress and change. I lived during the age where 5 and 6 years old were told that anyone who wasn’t a Catholic was going to burn in hell. That was Abuse, period. I hear that’s not done now. I also lived in a time where women would stay married to their tormenter and beater because they would “lose their religion” if they divorced. Not so much now, although some stlll do. But these changes occurred because people spoke up over and over and eventually enough left the church that they Had to not only listen, but Act as well.

            • CraftLass

              Things have definitely changed, had by my time. My class had a lot of religious diversity, too. We even had the first Buddhist to attend our school, which was awesome because we got to study it (we learned about lots of religions, but especially focused on those represented in our class).

              On the other hand, some of my teachers called a classmate of mine a “bastard” and said she could never go to heaven because her mother was Protestant and her father a Catholic and therefore they are not really married. That did not do much to help anyone in my class remain Catholic…

              When people were mostly limited to their local communities for friendship it was much easier to maintain judgmental doctrines. The more people around the globe get to know each other, the harder it is to discriminate in every way. It’s much more difficult to hate someone you know is generally a good person than to hate a total stranger who you haven’t even tried to understand. And most people are mostly good. :)

              Of course, this is the reason some religions work so hard to keep their flock away from the truth, that good people come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and from many different backgrounds. The ones that will stand the test of time will adapt to the new reality, the others will fade. The reason the RCC still exists is that it has adapted in the past, and if it doesn’t adapt further, it will be in even more trouble than it is. Its history is an excellent lesson for any other religion that wants to exist in the future.

            • Poison Ivy

              So true, Crafty! The internet has had a powerful effect on all repressive sects and religions. You have to keep people away from information in order to keep them indoctrinated (though Our Own Theo is an example that having access to information does not necessarily lead you to accept it.)

            • CraftLass

              And this brings us to another problem that Scn has at its core: People are not all the same and the same things don’t have the same effect on every person!

              The internet, much like college, is what you make of it. No more, no less. We all bring our own baggage to it, too. You can use the internet to reinforce what you already believe or you can use it to open-mindedly explore and learn and meet people and grow. It’s the proverbial horse lead to the trough situation.

              What makes the internet great is that it is a non–discriminatory tool that even people in some countries that ban most of the internet have managed to find access to. It’s allowed minorities and oppressed people find out that they are not alone, that others share their situation and still more people do actually care even if they can not relate. It’s a very humanizing use of technology.

              I’m very excited to watch the generations growing up with lifelong access and see what they do with it. Social media is so much better than the old pen-pal systems! lol It’s already changing the way organizations and even countries operate, just by giving us all amplification. I can’t imagine how cool it would be to grow up with a global community like we have more and more every year. :-)

            • Missionary Kid

              It’s my opinion that the RCC hasn’t really adapted at the Vatican level, but at the local level, it has. The official policy is that that kid is still considered a bastard, it’s just that it isn’t said out loud.

            • Candygram

              Thankfully the vatican’s grip on the everyday Catholic Church is pretty loose. A poli sci teacher once said Rome would probably excommunicate Latin America if it could stand to lose the numbers. Something about liberation theology.

            • Missionary Kid

              Actually, if you look closely at different countries where native festivals have been incorporated into Catholic feast days, and the pagan traditions that ended up in local Catholic celebrations, there has been a lot of local variation.

              Liberation theology, is, I believe, a movement that is tolerated because it keeps the numbers of Catholics in the church, and it will continue to be tolerated as long as the hypocrisy of the CC’s role in subjugating the population that now needs liberation is not emphasized.

            • CraftLass

              That’s how it always works with the RCC, historically. The Vatican only changes when it has no other options left and the rest of the system is begging for change. lol Remember Latin mass, anyone? ;-)

              To use my analogy of local, state, and federal government again, it’s the same way laws often change in the U.S. One town/city makes a law, other cities catch on, then a state makes that law, then another, and eventually it works its way to federal.

              It’s very hard to move any organization as large and entrenched as the RCC, it has a lot of mass. (Hahaha, sorry, couldn’t resist).

              Oh, and yeah, I don’t think the RCC will ever see a “mixed child” as anything but a bastard. Their marriage rules are the least likely to change, IMHO. As one of the most important sacraments and all…

            • Missionary Kid

              Of course. The bastard rule is set up to keep people in the RCC.

            • Erica

              I never experienced anything but acceptance and love but of course and am not going to bury my head in the sand as to what it was like before. Every religion is full of people, and some of those people were evil. And i hate to think of the “punishing God theory”. By the way, I always find your comments insightful and intelligent on this board and I really enjoy all of the rational people on here! I have never been directly associated with scientology but have developed such a fascination for it, I also find ex scientilogists to be smart and interesting. I think this “religion” initially attracts thinkers and explorers and people clearly higher in an I.Q. bracket than myself! Although I enjoyed a fabulous education, nobody could accuse me of being much of a student. prefer people and learning through them as opposed anything else.

            • Missionary Kid

              I theorize that it’s not necessarily better educated, because anyone who has a science background soon sees that LRH is full of shit. What it appeals to is the emotiuons, and uses them to get a person to disregard their intellectual ability to question.

            • Erica

              That makes sense. I don’t have a science background but a very strong “bullshit” meter and a deep fear of being taken advantage of. I also believe in the beauty of individuality which I don’t think scientology celebrates.

            • Poison Ivy

              They fool you, though. Hubbard’s “What’s true is what’s true for you” and their current marketing campaign that Scientology is for rebels and individualists can totally fool someone who is just getting in. It’s only once you’re in that you realize what he really meant was “What’s true is what’s true for you – as long as it’s what I told you is true for you.”

            • Erica

              Yep! That’s the beauty of the Internet! We get to research (free) before we make our choices. And if you join something that forbids research? it’s hard for me to understand why anyone would accept this. How is this not the biggest red flag of them all? In a time where we have so much access to information it seems so strange to me that you wouldn’t want all the facts first. Clearly they are gifted it manipulation or there wouldn’t be so many suckers. But there are certainly less these days aren’t there?

            • Poison Ivy

              “How is this not the biggest red flag of them all?”

              Exactly!

            • Missionary Kid

              It claims to celebrate individuality, but it lies, just like it does about everything else.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              hahah. Now you got me going. It is Not a religion. I can tell you that I knew No one personally who would have touched it with a 10 foot pole if it was marketed as a religion years ago. And it wasn’t. But anyone who was staff anywhere knew that the religion card was thrown down whenever it Needed to be cloaked for whatever reason. And since Hubbard decreed nothing could be changed, he in essence assured it’s demise.

            • Poison Ivy

              Jefferson Hawkins book has a GREAT section about the high-end, big bucks consulting/advertising firm the cult hired to clean up its reputation in the 80′s. This firm did a major, totally thorough analysis of Scientology and it’s beliefs and all the problems it was having in the world with “Black PR.” And the firm made a big presentation with its brilliant solution: take the religion element out, and just go back to being a self-help organization.
              You can see from where Scientology is today how well that went over.

          • Missionary Kid

            I always wonder about religious education. Protestant schools tend to be of the fundamentalist stripe, but both at least tend to give good basic education.

            Unfortunately, there tend to be gaps in the negative aspects of each history in the parochial school cirriculum, and I always wonder how that affects one’s attitudes in later life.

            Even today, I occasionally spot attitudes that are carry-overs from my upbringing, even though I went to secular, public schools, but had plenty of indoctrination in church and at home.

            My skepticism arose more from the act of questioning what I was taught and leaving the faith for a new one than from anything else.

            • Poison Ivy

              A Catholic school saved little PI from the fate of a crumbling public high school. Catholic schools aren’t the same now as they were back with Mr.PI was getting smacked by nuns with rulers. The Girl had to learn a lot of stuff that, not being raised Catholic, went in one ear and out the other. But all her “religious” textbooks had sections on all the other major world religions as well. Sure it was a school with a “pro-life club” and weekly prayer, but it also housed a lot of kids who were from atheist families, Jewish families, Protestant families. The difference was the small size, the dedication of the teachers, and the commitment to excellence in all the secular subjects. Oh – and wearing a uniform everyday. I swear, just taking the “It’s a fashion show” aspect out of high school freed Little PI up so much more energy to concentrate on actually learning something!

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Yes, the uniform part was inspired, it made everyone materially equal.

            • CraftLass

              Hehe! At my Catholic school, we just found new ways to materially compete. First it was earrings. Then they banned all earrings except little gold or pearl studs. So we competed on ribboned hair barrettes (if anyone here remembers those from the 80s, the kind where you bought a kit with barrettes, ribbons, and beads and made your own). So they banned those. Then it was shoes. So they banned everything but saddle shoes and penny loafers. Then we hit gold: Crosses and crucifixes. There was no way they were going to ban pendants that were religious, so we all started competing to have the gaudiest crucifix around our necks.

              Kids will be kids and kids will compete. However, I loved not having to pick out clothes each day. When I finally went to a school without a uniform I hated all that extra time and effort after the novelty of wearing clothes I liked wore off. lol

              Still, I am eternally grateful for my Catholic education. I was years ahead of the public school kids, my one year of public was soooooo boring because I’d done all that work 2 and 3 years earlier.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              You forgot purses!

            • CraftLass

              Oh, yes!!! As we got older, those became more and more important. And since we didn’t have to carry them in school they couldn’t ban them. :-D

              Gosh, I’d forgotten about all of this until it came up here. lol

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              oh no…I was happily nodding and reading along until you Restimulated the Uniform Engram! ahhhhhhhhhh Bad Shoe Bad Shoe! aghhhhhhh

              http://i40.tinypic.com/1ysj80.jpg

            • Poison Ivy

              Ohhhhhh those shoes!!

            • GlibWog

              baaaaaaaaaaaawhahahahha.. That is ripped rigt out of my yearbook .. Without the uniforms. I just love it.. OMG talk about Memory lane…haha

        • Captain Howdy

          The fact remains SPF that it wasn’t your choice. Parents should teach their children the facts of life and not what to believe in. Why do parents dissuade their children from believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy after a certain age?

          • Marie Claire Wolf

            Because folderol is only for tiny tots!

          • EnthralledObserver

            Because it gets too expensive! Well, the Santa part, hopefully not the toothfairy part.

          • EnthralledObserver

            Seriously though, I agree. I don’t believe in any faith, but I do believe in exposing my kids to different kinds of faith so they have the power of choice later on. You gotta know what you are rejecting to reject it with any kind of authority.

            • sugarplumfairy

              Yep..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              That’s a winner of an answer in my book, EO. Teach children about all kinds of religions and faiths. And Next class hour…teach critical thinking, reasoning, logic. No judgments, no good/bad labels. I think the kids today have made it clear that they are already wiser, already educated themselves much more than we ever did about the human race and the differences as well as similarities.

              They already Know that they Must not only learn these things, but they Must learn how to get along with each other if they are to survive At All in this new world.

            • Erica

              Exposing your kids to different faiths is critical. But not raising them in a chosen one misses the whole opportunity for “roots” and leaves their belief system in a state in a permanent confusion. Expecting someone to choose for them self down the road without a core foundation established is unrealistic.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Simply false! I have raised a son without, and have around me as family and friends, a lot of 40-30-20 years old, that never were given any religious instruction, all well adjusted, righteous, kind and productive folks.
              What you can say, on the other hand, is that any social environment will convey its values, hence you are raised in a christian society you will, by dint of it, be of the same moral and ethical mind-set.

            • Erica

              Ofcourse! You can no doubt raise amazing children minus religion! Many have. You can also royally screw up your children using religion as again many have. I was only trying to point out raising them without a belief system in place and expecting them to “choose later” will most likely never happen. They can also grow up with a faith and choose to ditch it altogether as an adult.

            • Poison Ivy

              My mother did this WAYYY ahead of her time. My Dad was old world Catholic-raised; still a practicing Catholic (but a Paulist) when he died. My Mom was agnostic and yanked me out of the Catholic Church at around 7. Then she took me to different denominations of churches, mosques, synagogues, temples. I was just a tyke. She said, “All these religions have little pieces of the truth about life’s meaning. But the minute anyone in any religion tells you that they and only they have all the answers, RUN!” I’ve lived my life by that credo – respect the wisdom of all religion and philosophy, but call a big “foul!” on anyone who claims his/hers is the “right” one.

            • Poison Ivy

              (PS – My agnostic Mom also started me early on the New Testament, and got me reading the Old before I was 10. I ended up knowing more about the actual Bible than some “religious” kids I went to school with.)

            • Missionary Kid

              Most of the people who claim that the bible is THE word of god, haven’t really read it thoroughly, but have leaned on their religious leaders to interpret it for them. There are many contradictions in the bible, but they’re all explained away one way or the other by whoever you listen to.

            • Robert Eckert

              They tried to read the Bible, found Genesis entertaining, Exodus a little less so, and got hopelessly bogged down in Leviticus, so after several restarts on Leviticus they gave up and skipped ahead to Revelation so they can say “I know how the Bible starts and I know how it ends!” They probably meant to get around to reading some of the books in-between sometime or other, but Revelation weirded them out so bad they never cracked it open again.

            • Missionary Kid

              As I said to my ultra-fundamentalist Christian oldest sister, “Whoever wrote Revelations was on acid.”

            • Studious Judious

              Or bennies…

            • Missionary Kid

              Maybe the same pinks and grays that LRH was on.

            • Poison Ivy

              Also, the “Bible” is a bunch of different books written by who knows how many different people at very different times in history (unlike, say, the Koran and the Book of Mormon which were both allegedly ‘dictated’ by God to one guy during his lifetime.). So essentially the best you can say is it’s the word of God’s steno pool, or His designated historical committees. Doesn’t make it any less fascinating or powerful or profound in many aspects, but it does essentially negate any argument for a blanket literal interpretation.

            • FLUNK_101

              Why?
              I loved the film “Before Night Falls” … Javier Bardem played writer Reinaldo Arenas. His mentor tells him that, as a writer, he should read the bible, but to read it as a story.
              Did your agnostic mom want you to read the bible for literary reasons?

            • Missionary Kid

              It depends on which version of the bible you’re talking about. By reading the King James Version, I got an education in the English language as well as the bible.

              The bible has all of the elements of a soap opera: birth, death, murder, rape, imprisonment, slavery, etc, etc.

            • Poison Ivy

              Yes, it’s the best soap opera ever. Which is how Mark Burnett made a fortune off it for A&E (while shutting out every creative union in Hollywood in the process.)

            • Missionary Kid

              I made it a point not to watch the bible. It’s sanitized pap, as far as I’m concerned, just like the 10 Commandments was when I was a kid.

            • Robert Eckert

              I watched some of it, a section of the Abraham narrative. All of the psychology was completely wrong, post-modernist back-projection of PC attitudes (Abraham going through a wrenching emotional crisis about Sarah asking that Hagar and Ishmael be booted out: uh-uh, he just kicked them out in the middle of the desert).

            • Poison Ivy

              He hired non-union writers (the uncredited writers from his reality shows) to write it, giving them their Big Dramatic Break, but of course not allowing them to work union or for credit. Nor were the actors SAG – it was shot overseas with foreign actors. Way to support American filmmaking, Mark.

            • Poison Ivy

              I still love Cecil B DeMIlle’s 10-Commandments – Charleton Heston full camp, Yul Brenner at his best and a cast of thousands.

            • Missionary Kid

              When I was growing up, it was considered sinful to go to the movies, so it was surprising to me that my mom took me and a couple of other kids from our church to see The Ten Commandments. I thought it was O.K., but the special effects were cheesy, even though they were state of the art for 1956.

              I also had read the original story in the bible, so I noticed the short-cuts taken for cinematic effect. I wasn’t impressed with Charleton Heston, either, because, while he looked like what I thought Moses would look like, they spent a lot of time making his very utterances SIGNIFICANT, so all of the swelling music and sound effects lost their power with me. Realize that I was 11, and all of the attempted aura of spiritual power didn’t mean much to me. Even then, I realized it was just a film.

              To me, after all, I’d “read the book,” not the ones the film was based on, but the bible, so even though I was a believer at the time, the film struck me as fiction.

              BTW, I got to know a person who was, at one time, head of the costumer’s union, and he knew De Mille before WWII. His opinion of Cecil as a person was not very high – and that opinion wasn’t based on working with him, but personal observation of him as a hoarder during the war. He had some interesting stories about John Wayne and other well known characters as well.

              The first film he worked on was Gone With The Wind.

            • Poison Ivy

              I think that was part of it. She wanted me to have a full complement of education in the arts and humanities and religion is a part of that. She wasn’t a big fan of “Dick and Jane” as a way to teach kids. I think she believed a person couldn’t truly be educated unless they understood world religions, and she started me young on that as in everything else. When I was in college, I took an amazing Old Testament as Literature course which was truly illuminating. I’ve since taken courses in various historical and literary aspects of both the Old and the New Testament. I’m fascinated by religion, both as a seeker, a skeptic, and a writer…for what religions reveal metaphorically about the human condition.

            • CraftLass

              I read the entire Bible on my own as an elementary school kid, but then I had to read it again in a secular prep school in sophomore (New Testament) and junior (Old) years as literature. It was so fabulous, after reading the Bible in the context of Catholic school, to read it at a very secular school where the students were primarily Jewish and we weren’t looking at it from the faith angle. First reading was the New International Version, second was the King James. Everyone should read at least two versions of the Bible, cover to cover, regardless of faith or lack thereof, it’s so important to understanding large parts of our history and societies!

              Also, it’s a great way to prepare your brain for the Silmarillion. ;-)

            • jeff

              Did you go to SF State? They had that class when I was there (though I never took it).

            • Robert Eckert

              My parents were never believers, but my mom made sure I had a big book of Bible stories, not a “kiddie” book either but an 800-pager with maps and classic artwork and all the stories from Genesis and Judges and Samuel and Kings, and in the New Testament section all the parables as well the miracle stories, and maps of Paul’s travels etc. Of course I also had my D’Aulaire’s Greek and Norse myths, and illustrated Iliad and Odyssey, and Arabian Knights and King Arthur and the Round Table; I was a voracious reader and she wanted me to have it all.

            • Poison Ivy

              That may have been the same book I had! I had the illustrated Iliad and Odyssey as well.

            • Robert Eckert

              The Bible book has survived and I passed it on to my bright nephew. D’Aulaire’s books still exist too, but I can’t find the Iliad and Odyssey.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Some of that may be wanting you to understand the culture of the western world which is judeo-christian. Understanding a reference to Joseph and his many colored coat could be helpful.

            • Robert Eckert

              Yep. She wanted all the classic stuff in my vocabulary. I remember now “Twenty Plays by Shakespeare” with summaries of the plots and samples of the dialogue (including the classic quotes) and “Augustus Caesar’s World” following him from a young kid through the crisis of Julius Caesar’s assassination to his war with Antony.

            • Eclipse-girl

              I like parents who value their child education, and try to make sure they are exposed to all sorts of stuff. Kudos to your parents.

            • Missionary Kid

              At least she put it into context, with all the other myths. I was raised to consider the bible as true, and everything else myths.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              That is exactly what I did with my son. Your mom is an Ace.

            • Poison Ivy

              You must remember, she did this in the ’60′s and ’70′s.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              My mom’s work was in the ’70s. Give your mama a big hug & kiss ;-)

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              wow. She really Was ahead of her time. Cool.

            • Erica

              I agree. One God, many paths. Religion is independant of knowing God but can be a wonderful gateway when used well.

            • EnthralledObserver

              People don’t need ‘roots’ in a belief system, they need skills and facts, which is what I try to give my kids… then they may investigate whatever belief system they want once they are mature and knowledgeable enough to make a choice using the skills and facts I hopefully helped them gain.

          • sugarplumfairy

            I think they gave me a gift, Cap’n.. They did teach me the facts of life.. But they were believers and it would have been unthinkable to them not to share that with their kids.. Fortuntely, they were also sensible and not at all extremist.. my upbringing opened up possibilities.. I’m much more content with life believing that there is a benevolent universal something who wants me to be happy..

          • Erica

            This does not ring true to me at all. Your responsibility as a parent is to share your faith, it is central to your being. It is the best part of me and I love raising my boys with the knowledge of a loving God who will accept them no matter what. They are never alone. That they have a responsibility to live this precious God given life with respect and love to others, themselves, the planet. I am so grateful for my devoted mother, one of the kindest people on the planet who welcomed my non conformist youthful self and answered all my questions with honesty. I think the reason my faith flourish’s today is she encouraged me to think for myself and I never felt judged. And if I decided to convert to Islam tomorrow she wouldn’t love me any less.

            • GlibWog

              Erica.. I am extremely spiritual. Not religious. I do NOT believe in Organized Religion at all.

              If anyone has ever seen Stigmata.. This is how I feel about my spirituality.

              I believe .. God is Love. Period. ” His Eye is on the Sparrow. ” I make no bones about my feelings. It is so private to me.

            • Zer0

              My gut feeling is that if you are perceptive, and live in the moment, then all else should work out just fine.

          • GlibWog

            WAIT A MINUTE! YOU MEAN THERE IS NO SANTA CLAUS OR TOOTH FAIRY?? WTF

            • Candygram

              Heh a friend of mine says she hung onto the idea of Santa for so long that her mom had to finally break the news to her. She was crying Un controllably but finally managed to say, “well, at least I still have the Easter bunny…” At which point, her mom broke out laughing.

        • FLUNK_101

          Stop deluding yourself, SPF. You are judgmental and intolerant. I have experienced your intolerance firsthand. You may be highly functioning, and you may be very attractive, but I would cross out “fairly intelligent, free-thinking, kind (or) socially responsible.”

          • sugarplumfairy

            I suggested you stop thinking about yourself and go to work in a soup kitchen.. Get over it..

          • Robert Eckert

            Stop it, FLUNK. You have not experienced any intolerance whatsoever, and your invented claims of persecution are exceedingly tiresome.

            • sugarplumfairy

              I agree.. He nailed me on judgmental though..

            • FLUNK_101

              Ha!

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        For people of any faith, raising children in that faith isn’t “indoctrination.” It’s a responsibility. Where I part with Scientology and any other belief system is when they essentially forbid anyone to form their own opinion/belief/ideas when they reach the point of understanding what they have been taught.

        Right now I have two children who have decided that the faith in which they were raised no longer applies to them. One pretty much rejects the whole notion of God and belief, the other is looking for a way to synthesize a lot of personal ideas about Higher Power. Do I worry? Yes. Am I in despair? No. Would I even for a moment consider cutting off either of my children on the basis of their rejection of what my wife and I have taught them (and, as much as possible, live out in our lives)? Absolutely not. Nor would I ever consider belonging to a religious community that would condone or encourage such a thing.

        I believe that I have given my kids the information and the tools they need to find their way to God. But I am smart enough to realize that they will make their own way. This is not allowed in Scientology, in which one must rigidly follow the Tech, without deviation. And if one rejects the Tech, one is then cut off and cast out. This is a hallmark of a weak faith that will not last.

        • villagedianne

          Oh Nooooooes! You’re being reasonable. This will never do!!!

        • Observer

          Exactly.

        • Chains of Mind

          “For people of any faith, raising children in that faith isn’t “indoctrination.” It’s a responsibility.”

          All faith has it’s own set of Dogma that must be adhered to. A Mormon will feel responsible to ‘educate’ his/her children in mormonism. A scientologist will likewise feel they have that ‘responsibility’. Teaching kids dogma, no matter the flavor, is not responsible, it’s child abuse!

          If one rejects the teachings of their faith, they are rejected by that faith. Sure, there are varying degrees in which this is carried out, Scientology probably being the worst.

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            “Dogma” is an interesting word in this context. Every parent that raises a child introduces “dogma” in varying degrees, and in varying contexts. Do they take a casual view toward nudity? Do they take the kids hunting? Are they Mormons? Is privacy valued above all else? Do they require their daughters to cover their hair? Is it a crime against nature to eat meat? Are they Roman Catholic? Scientologist? Do they join drum circles on the Solstice? These can all be considered “dogma” to some. But to a parent, it’s just a matter of imparting the “good values” they use in their own lives.

            BUT… when you rigidly adhere to these, to the point of doing harm (ie: “My son is not gay, and the beatings will continue until he acknowledges this;” or “No daughter of mine is marrying a Jew/Christian/Atheist/fill-in-the-blank.”), then yes, Dogma is, y’know, bad.

            • Chains of Mind

              dogma “a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.”

              I’m not simply talking religious rituals and traditions. Using the above definition I can’t think of any Dogma that is not bad.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              That is but one definition of “dogma.” I purposely was drawing a distinction between Dogma (incontrovertible principles based on religion) and dogma (generally agreed upon principles or beliefs). Most parents do not teach Dogma, choosing to leave that up to the Church. But most everyone has their own “dogma,” principles that some find incontrovertible and others not so much.

        • Poison Ivy

          “Where I part with Scientology and any other belief system is when they essentially forbid anyone to form their own opinion/belief/ideas when they reach the point of understanding what they have been taught.”

          Amen. Also, belief systems that do not allow you to question and debate the tenets of the faith you have been taught. BIG. RED. FLAG.

          I love that Judaism is all about debating and arguing and testing both faith and the nature of God. If you’re not allowed to do that, it’s pretty much headed in the direction of cult.

      • Chains of Mind

        I think Daniel Dennet’s idea of compulsory religious education for children is a start. Religous folks will give lip service to teaching their children to think for themselves, except when it comes to questioning their particular religion.

        Teach your kid that God is real, have faith in god, god knows all, there is no way in life except though god, etc, then tell them to have an open mind…wtf

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          Really? Are you really saying that every child who is taught these things is incapable of having an open mind?

          Really?

          • Chains of Mind

            Not incapable no. Stunted? Maybe. Unprovable ideas, religious or otherwise, should be presented as exactly that, unprovable. It is possible to have non-dogmatic beleifs. It is healthy to temper statements of belief with “I could be wrong”

            kid: dad, is there such thing as God
            dad: I don’t believe in god, and I find no evidence to the contrary, but I could be wrong.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Unprovable ideas are the stock in trade of religion. That’s what faith is all about. Where I part ways with “people of faith” is when they ask me to accept something that has been disproven, or cannot possibly be true.

    • FLUNK_101

      “for all the children whom Scientology robbed of their childhoods”

    • DamOTclese2

      The same could be said for Christianity, extremist Judaism, and Islam. Filthy death cults are far worse than this Scientology crime syndicate when it comes to turning kid’s brains in to pudding.

      • Robert Eckert

        Other religions can be criticized on many grounds, but for turning brains into pudding, Scientology has no equal in the modern world.

    • Poison Ivy

      I think of Derek. And Jenna. So amazing that there are those who come out of that mess with strength and character.

      • Observer

        Absolutely.

  • pronoia

    I have this sense that Gaimen is carting around a big fat engram called scientology (pictured as a big bully boy named Stephen) that he simply does not know how to handle. It is interesting that he went inactive sometime in the 80s yet remained married to a woman who was devOTed enough to give 35 grand just as he was getting divorced.

    • Captain Howdy

      So poor Neil left the cult in the 80′s but remained with his scilon bride for another 20 something years and now he’s stuck with Amanda “look at me, love me, hold me, want me” Palmer ? Poor Neil.

      • Observer

        Stop holding back, Cap’n … how do you really feel about Amanda?

        • EnthralledObserver

          lol

        • Captain Howdy

          I hwaet hate her.schtick.

      • Eclipse-girl

        Wouldn’t you have stayed if it somehow protected your kids?

    • Sunny Sands

      I don’t know enough about Neil to say why he stay married, but it’s not uncommon for people to stay married and go their separate ways.

  • EnthralledObserver

    I haven’t seen any ads, but it should air at 6:30pm Monday here, so that’s 9:30pm in London, 5:30am in New York… have I got that about right? I worked it out using The World Clock online.

    • EnthralledObserver

      Omg, third time lucky. I think I have my maths right now. duh!

  • John P.

    Off topic, but still relevant: a few days ago, there was a fascinating side discussion of Beowulf and the difficulties of translating the first word, “Hwaet,” into Modern English. Seamus Heaney, the Nobel Prize winning Irish poet who released an amazing new translation of the work in about 1999 or 2000, passed away today at age 74. News here: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/30/irish-nobel-literature-laureate-seamus-heaney-dead-at-74/ among other places.

    • Espiando

      That’s a kick in the nuts. Heaney was a man of truly rare talent. Guess it must have just happened. I didn’t see it on the BBC website when I checked it a couple of hours ago.

      • Ciru

        Announced about 2 hours ago.

    • pronoia

      Very very sad news. Seamus Heaney emmenated of one of the world’s bright and intelligent lights — which I am sure will continue to shine for a long time, as long as the remaining humans left here can figure out it is in there best interests not to continue down the present road of mayhem and setruction.

    • 1subgenius

      I am so going to add hwaet to my vocabulary, and speech pattern.
      Oh hwaet, wut?

      • pronoia

        Now do you actually say it? Like wut or like wayet?

      • monkeyknickers

        Actually – shit sub – I think that’s right!! What you said!

        In modern French (and richlieu can back me up here) it is everyday that you use “what?” at the end of a sentence. Like – I can’t believe the ATM ate my card, what. Or – she was TOTALLY screwing the upstairs neighbor, what.

        ETC

        And read any 19th century literature. You’ll find the exact same use of the expression in English.

        Hmm.

        The contemporary equivalent be . . . “Okay y’all listen up now. Dig it:”

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Bingo!

    • monkeyknickers

      I’ve been thinking on the “Hwaet” thing a little more JP.

      And I’d to offer another translation to amend my (humble) contemporary translation list with:

      Yo yo yo dawg, check it!

      :)

      Language is what it is you know?

      • Studious Judious

        Not being a real cunning linguist, could it also be like the Canadian ‘eh?’
        It’s a nice day eh?

        • 1subgenius

          I had studiously avoided the cunning linguist reference.
          Too easy.
          For that I hereby award you a downvote.

      • 1subgenius

        The word is not the thing it represents.

    • Zer0

      So. I’ve noticed a lot of synchronicities lately in my Bunker readings. I’ll add this to the list. How very odd.

  • 1subgenius

    So Neil’s childhood friend was ahead of him in Scientology and still caused problems.
    How could that be?

    • EnthralledObserver

      You’re not suggesting that the ‘tech’ didn’t work, even back then… *gasp*

      • 1subgenius

        “…one thing Problems Release can’t help me to handle.”

        Let’s see. Scientology didn’t help him handle a friend that Scientology didn’t help.
        I’ve got to be missing something here.
        Did Neil’s powers of deductive reasoning ever improve?
        Or that of BBC interviewers?

        • Nevermore

          Even today they’d hardly give a 7yr old a ‘full Paxman’!

    • Espiando

      Guess it was because the other kid was still only Grade IV (excuses, excuses). Anyone got an old Bridge Chart from 1968 to see what the EPs for the grades were back then?

    • Minion Gayle

      Obviously, Stephen as a classic PTS, even at 10.

  • Sid_Sn

    Colin: You’ve made it clear that you are not a Scientologist, but that your family members are, including your sister Lizzy, who is thanked at the back of the book. How tricky a situation is that?

    Neil (answering honestly this time): It’s extremely tricky. As long as I keep my feelings about Scientology to myself and don’t publicly criticize the church in anyway it’s ok. But if I were to simply say the words “LRH was a fraud and the Church of Scientology is a corrupt organization headed by a violent psychopath” then with those 18 words I would have lost all contact with my family members in Scientology, possibly forever. My family ties are essentially hanging by a thread which can be snipped apart at any moment by the cult they follow. I therefore do my best to answer questions such as these with extreme diplomacy.

    • EnthralledObserver

      “And I’ll thank future interviewers NOT to ask such dangerous questions which draw attention to this fact. Thank you.”

  • Sydjazz

    This morning there was a story about katie holmes getting stalked by scientology. I haven’t seen any ads about a story on today tonight yet though

    • EnthralledObserver

      I went to their site and none of next week’s stories seem to be advertised yet.

      • Sydjazz

        They were plugging it yesterday. About someone that works with high profile singers and her family didn’t know she was in or something

  • chris

    Where can we watch the Aussie show?

    • DamOTclese2

      Australia. Duh!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    I though Neil Gaiman explained his position quite well in this Guardian’s article with the headline:
    ‘I don’t think I’m mainstream. I’m lots of different cults’”. He specifically addresses the rumors:
    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jul/26/neil-gaiman-sandman-author-profile

    “Gaiman grew up in the Sussex countryside where Ocean is set, where his family were active in the Scientology community. Periodically, Gaiman says, “bonkers” rumours spring up online “saying I’m a secret Scientologist and I’ve donated $29m, and Amanda and I are both secret Scientologists and we were ordered to marry by the church”, but he himself believes only “in the power of stories”. Still, Neil IS getting special privileges. And what a thoughtless comment about not knowing anyone who doesn’t have a family for all those scientology familes that have been ripped apart. I’d like to see him answer up to the media on this subject since he’s made it appear that there is no disconnection policy in scientology. grrrr

    Labor Day 5 am. Is this like …. a test? Because you know, Sea Org slaves might have to get up at such an ungodly hour on a holiday no less. A big story? You said that twice. You know, those kind of “carrots” might work on OT’s waiting for their next fix. Well, it’s not going to work on us, mister. That’s EST right…not like I’m going to be up or anything. Speaking of OT’s preparing for their next fix..

    http://i42.tinypic.com/295641z.jpg

    • aquaclara

      We are counting down! LOVE this. Now I just wish I could be there. Dammit cult, you wait fifteen years to hold an event, and you can’t wait a couple more weeks?

      Sheesh. I will just have to dream of those lovely protest signs shaped like live oak trees No.1 and No. 2, a sea of umbrellas in sight….oooh, this is a good dream. Scurrying little people running for buses, trying to avoid bumping into the tree entheta….or the windstorm of grinning GF-masked SPs…..

      Don’t wake me up, ok? This is too good to pass up, even if I am just dreaming.

    • Captain Howdy

      It’s not EST, it’s scientology..sheesh.

      Five A.M is fine with me because that’s usually about the time the “medicine” wears off and the sickness starts to creep in.

      And the part about Neil having the luxury of having a family that hasn’t been ripped apart by scientology was doubleplusgood.

    • BosonStark

      Yeah, I wish Gaiman would get a clue and read GOING CLEAR or something, and realize that while his childhood may have involved a bully with a squirt gun, many Sea Org kids were enslaved in the organization that his sister and family were/are so devoted to promoting.

    • WhereIsSHE

      I don’t think he and his famly are roasting chestnuts over a Christmas fire.

      Maybe eating latkes over a candle-lit menorah? (Probably not though, seeing as he has DECLARED himself as an agnostic.)

      From Wiki:

      Gaiman’s family is of Polish- and other Eastern European-Jewish origins;[6] his great-grandfather emigrated from Antwerp before 1914[7] and his grandfather eventually settled in the Hampshirecity of Portsmouth and established a chain of grocery stores.[8] His father, David Bernard Gaiman,[9] worked in the same chain of stores;[8] his mother, Sheila Gaiman (née Goldman), was a pharmacist. He has two younger sisters, Claire and Lizzy.[10] After living for a period in the nearby town of Portchester, Hampshire, where Neil was born in 1960, the Gaimans moved in 1965 to the West Sussex town of East Grinstead where his parents studied Dianetics at the Scientology centre in the town; one of Gaiman’s sisters works for the Church of Scientology in Los Angeles. His other sister, Lizzy Calcioli, has said, “Most of our social activities were involved with Scientology or our Jewish family. It would get very confusing when people would ask my religion as a kid. I’d say, ‘I’m a Jewish Scientologist.’” Gaiman says that he is not a Scientologist, and that like Judaism, Scientology is his family’s religion.[11] About his personal views, Gaiman has stated, “I think we can say that God exists in the DC Universe. I would not stand up and beat the drum for the existence of God in this universe. I don’t know, I think there’s probably a 50/50 chance. It doesn’t really matter to me.”[12]

    • Missionary Kid

      I’m actually imagining that they DON’T need umbrellas because a microburst has destroyed the tent a few days before, and it’s impossible to have the event. ;-)

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist
        • Missionary Kid

          I want it to be a microburst so that people close by don’t get hurt. A hurricane or tornado might hurt too many people.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Hey, I’m not Wishing for one! I live here! Summer storms can be quite isolated, like down the street nothing, and it’s dumping and lightning and winds whipping down the other. And winter storms less often, but they Always bring screaming wind gusts. Okay, microburst it is. Make that stationery microburst.

            • Mark

              Ball lightning!

        • Missionary Kid

          Try this. Saw this on the local news here on the left coast. Close, but no cigar. It’s several miles off, and unfortunately, it damaged some boats. http://www.wfla.com/story/23301585/waterspout-damages-st-pete-marina

          I’d like to see that happen to the tent the day before.

    • tetloj

      Maybe the Beeb can get him on a panel with Sharone Stainforth to talk about children in Scientology.

  • Minion Gayle

    *yawn* 5am on which coast?

    • mirele

      East. That’s where Tony lives.

      For those of us who are on the West coast or whose state (Arizona) doesn’t move with Daylight Stupid Time, it’s 2 am. I’m going to be asleep.

      • Minion Gayle

        Ditto.

        Unless the kid or the cats have anything to say about it.

      • Andrew Robertson

        It may be possible that Bryan Seymour’s show will be able to be both watched and downloaded from the ‘TodayTonight’ web site.

        I did a search there for ‘Scientology’ and was able to download his program from Wed 27 July 2011 which pulls no punches and is still eminently watchable:

        http://www.todaytonightadelaide.com.au/stories/scientology

        Andrew

  • Minion Gayle

    I’m not sure I can comment on the Neil Gaiman interview without the use of profanity. Yet another, horrible, example of the manipulation and control over a child. My daughter is four, a year younger than Neil was when he started training. It makes me want to shake his mother.

    • EnthralledObserver

      I hear you. my youngest is 5, and anything I plop down in front of her to learn with my assurance that it was correct she’d just soak it up without question, too young to have gained enough of her own critical thinking and judgement.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      It makes Me want to shake his member. That’s for lying about families and acting like there’s no such thing as disconnection. But then, I’m evil like that before my 2nd coffee.

      • Observer

        Is there an autocorrect in the first sentence?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          baahaa

        • EnthralledObserver

          *snicker*

      • sugarplumfairy

        I’m trying to read the rest of the comments, but I can’t get past the mental image of lovely ladylike THDNE chasing Neil in a heroic attempt to shake his member..

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Now everyone knows why my husband lovingly wakes me with coffee at the bedside … and then runs for the hills. bwahhaha

  • Kim O’Brien

    See…it’s the kids that get me all riled up . Shit . I was going to be all charming and funny before my before my slammed work day started …i was even happy it’s Friday …..shit

  • aquaclara

    Has anyone seen Chuck around lately? It’s been quiet without him…..

    • Sidney18511

      Chuck Beatty? He pops in pretty regularly.

      • aquaclara

        Yep; have you seen him around this week? He is missed!

        • Sidney18511

          Now that I think of it, I don’t remember if he posted this week, but because I always read what he has to say I remember it wasn’t that long ago. I think he commented on the interview with Jon Attack.

    • Zer0

      I think he posted yesterday

  • Krew13

    A new big story. What I like to hear!!! More juicy revelations about the Sciloons!! For a messiah, it’s strange how Hubbard never saw the internet coming. More than anything, the internet poses the biggest threat to the Sciloons and they know it!! The gravy train’s fucked, Xenu brigade. Ki$$ my a$$!

  • Kevin Tighe

    So let me get this right? Neil was a Scientologist who did though at least OT III. He states PUBLICLY he is no longer a Scientologist. He is allowed to remain in communication with his Scientology family. I PRIVATELY resign from Scientology and let all appropriate people at Scientology know I want to remain friends, etc. I am then expelled and now I am unable to have any contact with my daughter. Neil knows this stuff goes on but remains silent. Hey Neil: You’re a fucking coward.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      You said it. It is hard, no impossible, to understand people who have no conscience. I try and try to remember that these people are physically deficient in certain brain regions. But you still want to just smack them, don’t ‘ya? I have every reason to believe that this insanity will end within the next few years at the most and hope for much sooner.

      • Poison Ivy

        Come on, can you really say he “has no conscience” just because he’s not speaking up publicly? This could be keeping him awake nights.

        • Marie Claire Wolf

          Everybody is assumed to have a conscience, in his case its has been kept in silence for reasons of his own. Read what you want into this, speculation is not helpful.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          No, not because he isn’t speaking up publicly in general. But when he is specifically asked about scientology and families and whether or not he had to disconnect from them because he is no longer a scientologist … how do I say this. I know. He Lied! He said he didn’t know anyone who doesn’t have a family. He was specifically lying about the Disconnection policy knowing full well that it has existed from when he was young up until this very day. He could have said he didn’t want to comment on personal family stuff or a number of other answers. I would have more respect for him if he just told interviewers that his beliefs and his family are simply off limit topics. But what he said in answer to that specific disconnection question is what riled my Irish today. Irish opinion.

          If he does have a conscience, then he must have locked it up in the family vault and only visits when it suits him.

          • Poison Ivy

            I think he meant, one still loves and forgives one’s family, despite everything. I don’t think he was referring to disconnection.

            Though you are right – I’m sure he knows damn well about disconnection. Perhaps that is what he’s afraid of.

      • Zer0

        Nah, you just watch them smile, and document the shit out of everything they do.

    • ze moo

      Whales and clebs bought (rented?) the express lane of the bridge. The usual rules don’t apply to them.

    • 1subgenius

      Indeed.

    • Bob

      Maybe he is. But what do you expect from a group that does only what’s expedient whether it is hypocritical or not. Mousekavige is the coward and he breeds robots. Robots are not cowards as they do what they are ordered to do. Which can look brave, insane, foolish, self serving or selfless.
      Injustice is the norm in the land of milk and Sciebots. Anything goes as long as it looks survival for the mouse king and his house of cheese. At least Neil has some semblance of a choice now. Coward or not he is so much higher than robot.

      • Marie Claire Wolf

        Even cowards are supposed to have a conscience.

        • Bob

          Not necessarily. Conscience means aware and considering action based on that awareness. We can only speculate what’s in his head. We don’t know for sure.

          • Marie Claire Wolf

            Agreed, I never meant to imply he is not burdened by obligations to loved ones, that would be a sine qua non.

        • DamOTclese2

          Limbuagh doesn’t. George W. Bush doesn’t. Christian shit bag cowards don’t have any conscience, neither do their Islamic shit bag colleagues.

          • Marie Claire Wolf

            How do you know this? I believe that some people are capable of great evil and in order to do so they put a damper on their inner consciousness, but that does not mean they never have moments of utter clarity.

            • Poison Ivy

              Again I refer all to the book “Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me” to understand the complex psychological mechanisms of cognitive dissonance, denial, projection and other methods we use to allow ourselves to still feel we are good people at the same time we are screwing others to the wall.
              This is happening to me right now. I am being/have been screwed over by people I am 100% certain feel they are in the right and entitled to do so. If they didn’t, they surely couldn’t sleep at night, or they’d wake up and do the obvious (and easy but costly) right thing. It’s not that they don’t have consciences or are “bad people.” It’s that their minds have found shortcuts around looking at the situation objectively and saying, “You know, we shouldn’t have done that, how can we make it right?” They have to make themselves right in their own minds. That is a uniquely human trait.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              The prison autobiography of Rudolf Höss is a stunning document on the shortcuts you mention. It is a chilling read but worthy of the exercise in that it makes one understand the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance & denial. Thank you for noting this.

            • Poison Ivy

              Will look for the Rudolf Höss as well. Thank YOU!

            • Interested

              Oh my goodness, how true. I lent a lot of money to someone almost 15 years ago (yep). I had asked for it back over the years, but recently put a date on when I needed it. Suddenly ” I was destroying his life”! And the fact that I had done without whilst he built a great big bloody swimming pool in his garden ( thank you google earth) never entred into the blame thrown in my direction. ” how dare I ask for what was rightfully mine!” And yet although we have not spoken since, I am sure he feels wronged and can justify his not wanting to pay me back even if I was in need. How sad though that some people can not have a decent moral compass.

            • GlibWog

              PI I am sorry that is happening to you.. Me too and it sucks.

          • Observer

            Christian shitbag coward here. I can assure you I have a very active conscience that doesn’t let me get away with anything.

            • Robert Eckert

              Presumably that is because, while you are a Christian, you have avoided being either a shitbag or a coward. There are of course plenty of Christians who are neither, just as there are unfortunately many who are both.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I think it has to do with who is making the rules on specific cases.

      NG has not accused the Co$ or DM of any crimes. It is likely that his parents and siblings actually want to remain in contact with NG. It also may be that NG doesn’t talk about $cientology with his extended family.
      NG may never formally resigned from the cult.

      You were treated differently. Your actions alerted those in LA and they were able to hurt you as a form of punishment. I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.

    • DamOTclese2

      That’s because your mommy doesn’t give $millions$ of dollars to the organized crime syndicate.

    • Racnad

      I’ll say it again: There is no evidence that Gaiman has personally seen the worst of Scientology. He’s under no obligation to become an activist if he doesn’t want to be. Leave him alone.

      • Kevin Tighe

        Give me a frickin’ break. Google Neil’s wife’s name + Scientology. Google his father’s name. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if his godmother is Jane Kember and his godfather is Mo Budlong. Unless Neil lives in a hermetically sealed vacuum he knows what’s going on and the pinhead BBC reporter should’ve done his homework asked him some questions about it. It’s time “journalists” stop giving these pseudo-celebrities a free pass. The BBC reporter police asked him why he laughed for crying out loud.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          What Kevin said in spades. Please, I understand he’s under no obligation. But he has a very very big problem if he talks about scientology at all in any interview or article. He either has to do what others do and say it is off limits, no comment or he needs to be honest. A person who lies is a liar, no matter who they are or where they came from or what groups or beliefs or sports or food they are in, like, belong to and that includes friggin’ “celebrities”.

          • Kevin Tighe

            Watch Woody Allen’s new movie Blue Jasmine if you want to see what happens when you lie and look the other way. Cate Blanchett deserves an Oscar for her performance.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              will do. tks

            • GlibWog

              Love Woody Allen.. Can’t wait to see it Kevin

            • Kevin Tighe

              Hope you enjoy. I don’t think it will appeal to most but Cate Blanchett is mesmerizing.

            • tetloj

              Why I love the Bunker. I have my weekend book read thanks to PI and a promising film recommendation…so much dross out on film now I don’t get time to seek out the treasures.

            • jeff

              Cate Blanchett was amazing. But Woody lifted the story arc from Tennessee Williams’ “A Streetcar Named Desire.” And there are plot holes. It’s not reasonable that a woman in her 40′s wouldn’t know how to work a computer, regardless of wealth. And it doesn’t seem reasonable that in this day and age, her love interest would not do a Google search on her. Having said that, I live in SF, and the wardrobe people dressed Bobby Canavale like he was on the Jersey Shore rather than an SF blue=collar worker. On another note, my copy of Counterfeit Dreams came in the mail today.

            • Kevin Tighe

              Yes the “A Streetcar Named Desire” story arc was obvious. I whispered the same to my wife within a few minutes into the movie though in Blue Jasmine we get much more of the sister’s “back story”. I tend to be real anal about plot holes but the computer issue wasn’t something that bothered me. The one plot hole that bothered me was the effect of her call to the FBI as she didn’t really know anything. My guess is the FBI would have shrugged or it would have taken years to build a case. But Cate Blanchett trumps all that for me. I also love the “message” of the movie (which was not lifted from “A Streetcar Named Desire”) i.e. the results of dishonesty and turning your head. +1 for Woody Allen.

            • jeff

              Hmm…I interpreted her call to the FBI as being she knew the deal and its details all along, but pretended not to know, that’s why they acted so fast.

            • Kevin Tighe

              For me a minor point either way as the acting is superb, there’s great dialog, nice cinematography and a good message.

        • GlibWog

          Absolutely 100% Agree..

    • WildaBeast

      His family is safe because they’re a Big Deal in the world of Sciloons. He is safe because he is “the guy who did Sandman”. It is sickening how differently Scientology treats you when you are ‘just’ public or ‘just’ SO, compared to what they do when you are ‘important’. But by holding that threat of disconnection over his head, they have a very effective tool to control his public statements. It is so hard, so so hard, to give up on blood. I know. I did it, and the one regret I have in a very fucked-up life is that the person I cut out of my life died just as I was ready to risk talking to her again. It’s utterly unfair that he gets to keep talking to his family and you don’t, but that’s not something he’s responsible for. Scientology is, and they deserve all the rage they have visited on them for it.

      • Kevin Tighe

        Neil is obviously not responsible for Scientology’s disconnection policy but that doesn’t mean he can’t take responsibility to expose the abuses that I’m certain he is aware of using the public platform he has. Neil’s wife has bigger balls than he does.

    • GlibWog

      Kevin I am sorry about your daughter.. damn cult.

      • Kevin Tighe

        Thanks. She’s a good kid. We were very, very close. Looking forward to hugging her again…soon.

  • monkeyknickers

    I actually feel like Neil Gaiman has a professional and personal responsibility to stop toeing the fucking line.

    I just deleted eight paragraphs of the most self righteous bullshit I EVER said, so I’ll just give you the topic paragraph. If private everyday people like Lori Hodgson are brave enough to take a stand against this hideous MURDEROUS organization, then every “famous” person has TWICE that obligation, and should be shamed if they do otherwise. It comes with the job, and with the fact that you are using public press for your own gain. Especially when they are asked OVER AND OVER in the press about this deplorable cult.

    If the interview had read – “oh we heard your family is really active in the Hitler Secret Service! And that you were an early adherent!! Seems kinda . . . funky . . . . so . . . . anything to say?”

    “Well, ha ha ha ha families will be families dontchaknow. We’re kinda like Meet the Fockers but with aliens and a pricey tithe structure!! Aw man – it’s all good – live and let live.”

    Bullshit. If you’re going to use the public forum to PUBLICLY promote your stuff – author, celebrity, X factor contestant etc – you have the absolute – AB.SO.LUTE – obligation to tell the truth about an organization that is ABUSING CHILDREN, that is RAPING PEOPLE of their rights that is actively involved in HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND TORTURE with whom you are or ARE NOT involved when the question is fucking posed to you.

    Jesus fucking christ.

    Like – “I get to use the special whole-world-access subway that only .000001% of humanity can use, as LONG as I don’t mention the ticket agents are 10 years old and refused school. Refused proper nutrition. Refused LOVE and care and cuddles and the sweet hugs of their MAMAS. Well . . . . okay then. I’ll just pretend like it’s all a mediocre Ben Stiller movie. LALALALALALALALALA fingers-in-my-ears!! Let’s roll the clip!”

    And I say this as someone who has incredibly low level vaguely public moments. These people could reach out to MILLIONS. Like . . . . yeah yeah yeah, I have a book/acting career/writer thing I want to sell to the publich but wait – wait – wait – PEOPLE ARE DYING COULD WE GET THAT IN THE INTERVIEW FIRST.

    Oh my god I got all breathless just then. I don’t know why I get so het up about this celebrity angle thing. I also have no tact.

    Am I still talking? I think I might be still talking. And I bet I misspelled some shit. And . . . yeah. Right then. Phew. Time to wake up the sweetest 4 year old indian girl in the world and make her go make me my damn breakfast. You cannot get good help these days.

    Wow – still typetalking.

    Time to stop.

    Here
    it com-

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      You are so awesome!

      • tetloj

        Second that

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          I’ll make that a hat trick.

          • WhereIsSHE

            And I’ll make it a GRAND SLAM=)

            • GlibWog

              Full House for me

      • monkeyknickers

        Oh B.

        NO YOU ARE.

        :)

        • coonellie

          I’d say my day wouldn’t feel complete without the both of you…and the PS announcements from THDNE ;->

    • 1subgenius

      Indeed.

    • EnthralledObserver

      A rant-y… AMEN.

    • ze moo

      Cruise can spout Lroons all he wants, but he doesn’t anymore. The crazy turned off so many people that his box office was hurt. Spielberg is said to blame him for bad sales of ‘war of the world’ tickets. Since then TC has kept quiet. Studios and the money men can be very persuasive, especially when your income is the subject.

      All ‘parishioners’ have a duty to know and hopefully approve what their church does. TC’s ignoranceness and avoidanceness of CO$ actions is his decision. If you claim that you know how to know and don’t know anything, what are you really? You’re just a posturing fool and the rest of humanity can see that. One can hope that the whales and clebs will wise up, but the record is very spotty. You can check out of the ‘hotel hubbard’ but it is much harder to really leave.

      On a happier note, the E! network show, Chelsea Lately did another bit on CO$ ‘auditioning’ wives for Tom Cruise last night. While she only mentioned the Nazanin Boniadi end of things and not the more recent Anette Johansen story, they did do 3 or 4 minutes of the crazy. I’ll try to find a video….

      Hiding the crazy has become impossible, how can the whales and clebs put up with that?? There’s a reckoning coming, and Davey is afraid, very afraid.

      • villagedianne

        Cruise’s exile into the wilderness following his public shilling of Scientology is a lesson I think he will not forget.
        Besides, he was like the worst spokesman ever for COS. The guy is incoherent without a script.

        • Poison Ivy

          Does anyone know what Tom’s relationship with his backstabbing (reading his confession folders out loud for giggles) BFF Davey is like at the moment?

          Seems to have cooled a bit from the white-hot days of his early marriage to Katie.

          What’s up with that?

          • Observer

            Maybe they blame each other for the humiliation Katie heaped on them with her super effective ninja divorce.

            • Natalia M

              “super effective ninja divorce”
              Best description ever!

          • WildaBeast

            My favorite interpretation is that Davey has gotten so paranoid now that he sees it all tumbling down, that he’s basically cut everyone off except for Sea Org members he can blame for all of his mistakes. That even Tom has been banned from Miscavige’s sanctum sactorum. :-) Wishful thinking, I know…

          • villagedianne

            I’ve wondered about that too. If Cruise re-marries, somehow I doubt that Miscavige will be invited along on the honeymoon like last time.
            Speaking of which, I wonder if Laurisse was also along on that honeymoon. Does anyone know?

          • ze moo

            Cruises movie ‘friends’ have probably made it very clear that any public ‘relationship’ with the führer is not a good career move. Any more pics of dysfunctional duo would only create more bad ticket sales. I do wonder if TC will show up in Clearwater at Tent time? He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. No, he’s just damned…..

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              Best described as: “The Grimmest Show on Earth”

            • ze moo

              Oh, there will be plenty of clowns there…..just not the funny kind…

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              And the super-freaks show, don`t forget this: D.M, the whales, and RTC.

            • Observer

              No indeed, not the funny kind.

            • Poison Ivy

              I’m sure he won’t. He’ll use work as an excuse.

        • RMycroft

          The best part about the Tom Cruise video is that it was edited down. Can you imagine the crazy that landed in the bit-bucket? I’m sure that it was signed off all the way to the top, and no one looked at it and said “Hey, this is stupid and whacked!”

          • Poison Ivy

            I doubt Tom signed off on it.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Wasn’t it all editted / put together by DM?

            • Poison Ivy

              He micromanages all of their video stuff. Because he’s a video genius. Why? Because he ran camera for LRH back in the 70′s, of course.
              I’ll bet TC just trusted DM to do a great job on the video and had no idea how stupid he’d look. If the bites in that video had been intercut with other stuff and truncated and carefully edited and not strung together to make him look like an obsessive nutcase, no one would’ve noticed it.
              DM’s own total tone-deafness to how the world perceives (correctly, I might add) fanaticism really screwed TC and his reputation over.

            • i-Betty

              “Because he ran camera for LRH back in the 70′s, of course.”

              From the top of a box.

            • villagedianne

              Yes I think Rathbun said it was edited by Miscavige personally.

          • Robert Eckert
            • monkeyknickers

              This is favorite of ever before.

              !!

            • GlibWog

              Damn.. Robert.. The best! I love Jerry O’s … but this is dead on. I only wish it were longer

          • tetloj

            Thought hit….maybe. Said it….no

      • richelieu jr

        Spielberg hates him for more than bad ticket sales. Rightly so.

      • Zer0

        Cruise is going to make a big comeback with his NEW MAN THONGS- they make him feel more “carefree” during his action scenes!

      • Cat Daddy
      • Missionary Kid

        The negative reaction to TC’s confrontation of Matt Lauer, as well as his other weird statements like his comments on post-partum depression of Brooke Shields, exposed his nuttiness because he had his sister handling his affairs. Apparently, she’s a bigger $cion than TC. He had to fire her to save what was left of his reputation, but the damage was done. That’s just the self-inflicted damage he’s done in front of the public.

        TC is certainly clueless. He’s in the Co$ bubble so deep that he’s managed to not only commit footbullets but dicknukes. Yes, what follows is a more or less anonymous post, but apparently it’s been making the rounds of H’wood. http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=24589

        It does not bode well for his career, to piss off a powerful director and make an ass out of himself in front of some powerful people because of his belief in Co$ and insistence that others believe as he does, as well as his misogynistic attitudes that were exposed.

        • GlibWog

          My thoughts.. Cruise is OUT .. ( NOT blown out) but OUT of Favor with tiny boots. Like JT is.. Just used and abused and thrown away like a used Kleenex.

          It is no secret that Cruise Put DM on the Pedestal …. Everyone thinks it’s the other way around.. The head of the ” Chirch” wanting TC Adulation. From everything I have read TC was seeking the Power that is DM.

          They may have shared the Pedestal at one time.. but My opinion is that TC is NOT in DMs Favor nowadays.. Just too much shit putting attention on his ” Chirch”
          Divorces, Couch Jumping, Wife Auditioning ( Oh don’t kid yourself TC would be blamed for this..) Matt L interview..

          and being friends (?) with Will Smith and his mess of a movie..
          We haven’t heard shit from TC lately.. He is laying low. I’m wondering if he will show up for Super Power? Shit I wonder if Shorty will..?

          • Missionary Kid

            All good points. The hubris in Co$ is thick and deep, and it’s coming home to roost.

            Co$ has always wanted to be high profile, but it didn’t want the scrutiny that comes with it. They wanted to keep the dirty not so little secrets secret. Co$ always works for control. With a higher profile, control is lost.

            Cruise drank deeply of the Kool-Aid, but in doing that, he also adopted the twisted, misogynistic world view of LRH. Exposing that, particularly in his personal relationships, has hurt the {church}.

            The attempts on the part of Co$ to set up a wife for Cruise has been a huge failure because they don’t really understand psychology or human relationships because they adopted the philosophy of LRH of domination and control, two elements that do not go well in the long run with modern women who have been successful.

            The whole, “Where’s Shelly?” campaign is a reminder of how Co$, DM, and LRH look at other people, particularly women: disposable.

            DM has few, if any restraints on his behavior within Co$. He extended that pampering and lack of restraint to TC in order to get him deeper in the fold. What he created was a spoiled child, which is actually a mirror of what he is.

            Cruise wanted DM’s power, and DM wanted Cruise’s public adulation. Instead, TC got the ridicule DM deserves, and DM got the light of publicity shined on the dark corners of his life. For each of therm, it’s been a disaster.

            Will Smith’s failure is also a measure of the self-delusion that Co$ engenders. The persona of a fun good guy has been damaged by his association with Co$. Since failure is the person’s fault, and success is the result of $cientology, Co$ will distance itself from Smith and Cruise, but only a little.

            • Lark Smith

              I agree, Co$ will distance themselves from TC and WS. I also believe they will not be as pampered as in previous years. Perhaps even mocked and joked about like JT behind their backs. However, they won’t be shut out as long as their bank accounts stay healthy and they tow the line in public (keep silent) .

            • GlibWog

              Ohhhh This is a fabulous assessment Kid.. You summed it up beautifully.. Wow..

            • Missionary Kid

              Thanks, I was half asleep when I wrote it. I went back to bed, and I’m rested now. Surprisingly, awake, it still makes sense.

          • Missionary Kid

            To add: I think that DM will appear for the SP opening, but it will be very tightly controlled.

            • GlibWog

              It will be beyond a ” Telling Move ” if he stayed away. You are right. It’s like how can the whales support it if the leader can’t.

              Wondering about Shelly.. It will probably be determined whether or not she passes muster.

            • Missionary Kid

              By then, they would have had time to adjust her reality, but everything depends on how pliable she is, and how much DM thinks bringing her out for show will do him good.

              He may have assumed that now that the cops have found her that he’s taken care of the question of “Where’s Shelly?” DM’s reality is completely different than ours. It’s all based on how he perceives what the public perception of him is. It’s all a matter of image.

    • aquaclara

      This is the most beautiful rant EVER. Maybe after breakfast and coffee (eeks, are you allowed coffee now????), you will come back and see all the lovvvveeeellllyyyyy up-arrows being shot your way!
      Here’s a few more, for fun! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      x10.
      PS If you sign this contracty-thing I have here, you can get a BILLION up-arrows, too. Limited time offer. Operators are standing by.

    • Sid_Sn

      I wonder if Gaiman fully understands the situation regarding disconnection, especially for those who don’t have the “protection” afforded by some kind of celebrity status? So when he says “it’s not tricky” – he could be referring to the fact that for him personally it has not been tricky…?

      I wonder if a well worded letter addressing his “not tricky” comment might be enlightening for him?

      There are lots of suggested ways to reach out to Neil at his website I have just seen.

      • monkeyknickers

        I think he must ABSOLUTELY understand it Sid . . . . elsewise what POSSIBLE reason would he have for hem-hawing over the issue?

        And a good catch, you. :) I was so pissed I stopped reading WAY before that.

        :)

        • GlibWog

          I agree Monkey..

          ” Gee you know how family is.. We all have them ya know.. ” One in the hole, One in the Sea Org haven’t heard from them in like 3 years.. Busy as a Bees..

          and one at staff.. Ya know I have no idea where.

          Just a Crazy Family like most are. We all have them. What cha goin to do? We fight, we make up.. Well when we see each other that is. Crazy schedules like everyone elses.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I get you and agree with you , mostly.

      I think NG was protected from the worst aspects of $cientology because his parents were Bigwigs in England. To the best of my knowledge, they were educated at non scientology schools. To the best of my knowledge, neither he nor his siblings were in Sea Org. To the best of my knowledge, neither he nor his siblings ever were execs who dealt with DM.

      I think they have closed their eyes and ears to the abuses of $cientology. Since they claim no first hand knowledge of abuse they have nothing to speak up against.

      Katie may know more. She may have witnessed some abuse. Katie should speak out. But we don’t know the details of the divorce. Perhaps there was a tit for tat, Tom is never alone with Suri and Katie will never tell what she knows?

      • WhereIsSHE

        Katie was constantly “minded”/”handled” during her relationship with He Who Must Wear Lifts.

        Even if she did not observe outright abuse, first hand, she knew enough to conclude that she needed to extricate herself and her daughter from the evil clutches of the cult and the Operating FruitLoop who dragged her into it in the first place.

        She knows.

        She has access to all available criticism now, and can read and see and hear about the horrofic crimes this cult has perpetrated.

        So she either bargained away her right to speak publicly about it, or she is a supreme narcissist.

        My guess is that keeping her mouth shut is directly related to custody of Suri, and that it is phrased in such a way as to relate only to “the father” of Suri’s “religion”, i.e. that there is an agreement that to publicly criticize anything to do with either parent’s “religion” is “not in the best interest of the child”, because it would “undermine” the other parent’s relationship with the child, and that either parent who violates said agreement is subject to some loss of custody rights.

        Some courts do enforce these types of clauses. Some question the Constitutionality of such speech restrictions.

        Here is a very good article on the issue: (and all the agnostics/atheists–and even lapsed [insert denomination]ers in the Bunker will surely want to take a good look at the discrimination you could face in a custody dispute in the “Land of the Free”):

        http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/family.pdf

        • ze moo

          Katie Holmes position is one of being between child support and expensive legal fees. She has taken the easy road out and I don’t blame her. Someday she may speak up, I await that with baited breath.

          This last week has brought up tabloid stories that the clams are following her and gathering ‘intel’. I have no idea how true that is, but I would not be surprised if TC and Davey played what ever games they can get away with. I suspect a truly draconian non-disclosure agreement and a lot of embarrassment is behind Holmes silence.

        • Poison Ivy

          Wow, fascinating, WIS.

          I recently read an article that mentioned some paparrazzi on her current Ohio film set were pulled aside and asked if they were Scientologists before they were allowed to stay. Once they proved they were just garden variety exploitative paps, they were welcomed. This tells me that she’s still being watched/stalked and still has to move carefully.

          I would not be surprised if Katie is saving up her tell-all for the day after Suri leaves for college. It will be a good time for her to collect the cash, given she’ll be in her 40′s then.

          • WhereIsSHE

            Ah. I see you’ve seen the link. If you have clicked on it and read a bit, kindly disregard my invitation down below!

        • Eclipse-girl

          TY for the article. I agree with your speculation

        • monkeyknickers

          HAHAHAHAHHHHA

          “He Who Must Wear Lifts”

          I had to hit reply even tho I’d only read to there.

          Oh dear. (wiping a tear away)

          :)

    • Bob

      Absolute truth? Who knows except Neil what he knows and doesn’t know. And even if he he knows every detail of every dastardly crime committed by Seaborgs and Sciebots he is weighing the merits of his family, his connection to them, his book, his future harassment, etc. He made his statement. He is no longer a member. What he does after that he has to live with. On the positive end, he no longer endorses it. I’m happy he is out. Judging further is armchair rhetoric. It looks good written and high ideals and all. But be there and then see how you act.

      • Poison Ivy

        Do he and Mary have younger kids?

        • Eclipse-girl

          I thought there were three kids.

        • Bob

          Not younger. Young adults.
          Gaiman lives near Menomonie, Wisconsin, United States and has lived there since 1992. Gaiman moved there to be close to the family of his then-wife, Mary McGrath, with whom he has three children: Michael, Holly, and Madeleine. As of 2013, Gaiman also resides in Cambridge, MA.

          • Poison Ivy

            He may have made the decision that it is better for his kids for him to keep things quiet. I can’t blame a parent for making any decision that he/she perceives to be in the best interest of the kids.

            • richelieu jr

              Whilst I am first to bang the ‘celebrities have extra responsibility’ drum, I cannot fault him for this.

              Then again, Katie Holmes seems to have pulled it off in a way…

              Gaiman is different that Cruise or JT or whomever because he was born into the cult; He didn’t ask for it. And once he got out, he was unable talk without losing contact with his family and children..

              I gotta give him a provisional pass for this…

            • WildaBeast

              I think Katie Holmes was able to pull it off because there was a spotlight of 800,000 watts nailed on anything she, Tom and Suri did. She also picked her moment – waited until a) Suri was old enough that the Creepy Shit Scilons Do To Their Kids was becoming a factor that the media would LOVE (“a mother’s fear for her child” and all those potential headlines & angles), and b) when Scientology had taken enough of a beating in the recent past that they couldn’t get away with fair-gaming her; not with that huge spotlight on her and Suri.
              Gaiman might be famous, but he’s by NO means so well-known or as well-covered as TomKat & Kitten. Also, Katie’s family isn’t and never was “in”. All she risked losing was a husband she was ditching anyway. Lower stakes, higher coverage. Katie did it smart, if you ask me. And I haven’t seen her speaking out about the crazy yet, either. Maybe the divorce settlement prevents her from making a statement…but maybe not. I don’t know.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              good points.

            • Eclipse-girl

              He wasn’t born into the cult. His parents didn’t join the Co$ until after he was born. He was raised in the cult. (Being pedantic, I apologize)

            • Robert Eckert

              Careful, even pedantic, attention to the details of the facts is one of the things I love about the Bunker. Tony will chime in if someone gets, say, the sequence of events wrong even if the substance is all right.

            • richelieu jr

              OK, so?

            • Eclipse-girl

              Just being pedantic. Not trying to fight. NG was raised in the cult. I do not know if those first few years when he was infant and his parents were NOT $cientologists made any difference or not. NG (or his sisters) was not raised barley milk or that stuff.

            • richelieu jr

              No worries. My point is simply that it was not a considered adult choice, and now he has to deal with it.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Absolutely agree.

            • WhereIsSHE

              Can’t you?

              I can.

              What about a parent who prevails upon a court to rule against the other parent’s custody rights due to that other parent being an atheist.. or gay… because he or she “perceives [it] to be in the best interest of the kids”.

              It happens, and some courts do enforce it.
              Many horrific things are done in the name of “the best interest of the child[ren]“.
              Take a look at the law review article I linked above.
              Here it is: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/family.pdf

              Prepare to tear your hair out.

            • richelieu jr

              How about courts that give parental visiting rights to rapists, even going so far as to make the victim responsible for getting the child support payments from the man who raped her… This happens in 31 STATES PEOPLE!

            • Poison Ivy

              I’m not saying that the parent is right – of course I’m against a parent who is straight & homophobic trying to keep his/her kid from the gay parent, etc.
              And I’m against the court supporting it.
              I’m against anything like that being done “in the best interests of the kids.”
              However, a parent’s personal perception of what is best for his/her kid is hard to argue with – meaning you are not going to change that parent’s mind, if that is honestly his/her motivation.
              As you’ve pointed out, that’s why custody battles get so ugly. Two people each 100% certain that they are in the right about their kid’s welfare, both meaning well from their personal points of view, and often, BOTH being wrong.

      • monkeyknickers

        EDIT: BOB I LOVE YOU.
        (I’m a grouchy pregnant lady filled with self righteousness.
        I understand your point and wish I could hug you. I’m certainly not ranting at you personally.
        ‘Kay? Back to RSP):

        I am there. And I see exactly how I act. Just because someone’s place
        of work isn’t McDonald’s doesn’t mean they are somehow excused from
        basic human decency.

        AND OF COURSE HE KNOWS. Of COURSE he knows. Good christ.

        Here’s the bottom line when it comes to celebrity and being a public figure:

        You don’t want to talk about being a transvestite and how your dad beat
        you? Fine. That is your right. I will go to the FUCKING MAT for you.

        You
        want privacy and safety from a thousand flash popping assholes when you
        try to take your children to school or go to dinner or whatever? I’ll
        fight for you ’til I’m bloody. BLUUUDDY.

        You want to excuse yourself from exposing a murderous cult you know intimately
        because you’re all famous and drowning the press in your newest
        book/record/tv series effort ?

        NO. NO.

        You talk. You fucking talk.

        You know what else? If Scientology were Jonestown, I guaranTEE you that not
        ONE of us would be saying: weeellllll . . . . I can see how he wouldn’t
        saying he’s just trying to live his life glass houses stones and cant
        we all get along.

        Scientology IS Jonestown.

        Except slower.

        We have an obligation to use any resources we have to help the human who can’t help itself. period.

        I know I sound like a blustering self righteous asshole Bob . . . . and
        I’m sorry. If you were here in the flesh you’d see that the person
        writing this post is the exact same person standing before you. Cept I’d
        spew a lot of bullshit while feeding you peach pie I made you and
        paying your electric bill.

        That whole thing.

        • GlibWog

          He knows…
          and you know MONKEY.. I personally think it is eating him alive. The family that is still in and the Truth… Maybe one day if/ when he is ready..

          Or everyone is ready like Leah’s bunch.

          • monkeyknickers

            I talk too much. :(

            :)

            • GlibWog

              NEWVAH MY LOVE.. I enjoy your posts sweetie pie.. xoox ( HUGS Mama)

            • GlibWog

              Hmm where is the edit.. I meant to say Hugs to our pregnant Mama..

    • 0tessa

      Noblesse oblige. Always and everywhere.

    • Poison Ivy

      Great rant, MK. I DEFINITELY agree with you in principle, but let me take a moment and be the devil’s advocate here. Neil MAY be just a spineless celeb toeing the line, or he may be walking a more perilous personal tightrope here. I don’t know if he and his ex have kids together, do they? There may be much more at stake for him personally in speaking out. We don’t know if the church has blackmail or slanderous material on him, his wife, his family, or even on his parents who have passed away. We don’t know if there have been fair game activities or threats. We also don’t know what he (or Amanda, who is no shrinking violet) do or say behind the scenes. They could be quietly trying to influence their family members. We just can’t know these details.

      I agree that the ideal stance to take is to be a Lori Hodgson (who has no more to lose at this point after what they’ve done to her) or a Paul Haggis, or Jason Beghe, or a Leah Remini (who fortunately was close enough to her family to be able to convince them to leave with her.) But not all people have it in them to live from a position of conscience. I’d like to think that if it were me, I’d be on a soapbox speaking out like Lori or Jason. But I can’t say for sure what I’d do in someone else’s shoes.

      I think it’s fair to raise these issues with Gaiman, and make him damn aware of all the horrific abuses committed in the name of the “church” if by some strange reason he isn’t aware of them. But what he does about them is ultimately his call. He may have grown up in the chaos of the church and seen enough of that side of them that he never wants to go through that hell again.

      Again, Devil’s Advocate.

      • FLUNK_101

        Excellent post, PI.
        It made me think of the old saying, “If you’re not part of the solution, you are part of the problem,” which, to me, is totalitarian. Everyone has a right to their own point of view based on their own experience.
        And I don’t begrudge Gaiman his success as a writer. From what I can tell, I’d say he’s very talented.

      • monkeyknickers

        I gets it girl :))

        And if weren’t for the devil, we’d NEVER have any fun around here.

        You’re smart and funny.

        :))

    • NoName

      I’m replying this to you, but really it is directed at all the Neil Gaiman apologists who say he may not know.

      Bullshit!!! He knows about the abuses. The dude blew from the SO at Flag in the 80′s. I think it’s safe to assume that whatever made him blow means he wasn’t as coddled as everyone thinks.

      • Eclipse-girl

        Will you please elaborate on NG leaving SO? Not every recruit stays there.

        • NoName

          This is an interesting area for me, personally, because many people I know have gotten into NG’s stories after going offlines. So, I’ve researched him a bit. Interestingly, someone is trying to clean up his online presence, so dox come and go. BUT, here are some useful links from WWP.

          “I did see the “ethics order” declaring Neil back in the early 1980′s. I was not given a copy. The context at that time was that David Gaiman was a declared SP. The SO system and Neil did not work well together. Neil and Mary left not long after he became Flag crew and Hubbard’s policy was applied to them. When Neil became a writer of some note, the ethics order was cancelled.”

          https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/amanda-palmers-sea-org-scientology-connections.102233/page-4

          He blew from the SO at Flag in 1983 and was declared. The dox about him doing A-E’s seem to have vanished, but here are dox that he was back onlines in 1998.

          http://www.mobileread.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-56696.html

          Mary attested to Clear in 2002, and they gave some cash to the IAS prior to their divorce, but he’s now married to Amanda Palmer. In case you don’t know, our good proprietor covered Amanda Palmer’s attendance at Kate Bornstein’s little SP party in Greeenwhich Village a while back.

          http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/05/scientology_amanda_palmer_kate_bornstein_neil_gaiman.php

          So, all evidence is that he’s out and avoiding the cult’s radar. He’s already dealt with the bullshit of an SP declare, A-E’s, and disconnection once, so maybe we need to take that into consideration with him.

          Last comment – who here has read / seen the movie Coraline? Can anyone who knows the slightest factoids about the cult read that book or see the movie and not think that the “other world” is a metaphor for the cult? I happen to think it’s a very thinly disguised metaphor for Scn.

          • Eclipse-girl

            TY for the info. I appreciate it. Yes, I agree that many of his books have a subtext that can be read into them.

      • monkeyknickers

        Word.
        :)

    • DamOTclese2

      That’s not fair. If he speaks out he stands the possibility that some or all of his idiot family will be forced to “disconnect.” It’s not cowardice, it’s accepting the reality of the crime syndicate’s racketeering against its dimwitted, fucking stupid customers who still hand over their money.

      • Mary_McConnell

        Thank you.

      • Brett Allen Hensel

        “dimwitted, fucking stupid customers” I’m going to make it a point to refer to someone as that before the day is over. Bravo.

      • monkeyknickers

        Again – I answered this angle above Damotclese . . .

        And trust me when I tell you that I know what it’s like to have people inside.

        I’m saying this: IT DOESN’T MATTER. If you make that decision to lie by omission because you want to talk to your sister at Thanksgiving, you don’t make it about THEM – you don’t make it about actively trying to PROTECT AND RESCUE them.

        You make it about YOU. And how YOU will be sad if you’re all alone at Christmas. How YOU will be unable to ask your brother to come fix your car . . . or whatever.

        I’m not trying to be a dick or unfair. Like I said, I’ve experienced the exact situation you outlined above. I know how much it hurts. But that’s no excuse.

        It’s about THEM. The people you love. It’s about getting THEM out even if you have to eat Christmas dinner all by yourself.

        I’m saying: I love my sister. I love the little girl she left behind. that’s why talk to anybody who will listen about scientology, and that anybody who has broader range to do so, SHOULD DO SO.

        Anyway – sorry honey. I’m not sure why today’s post hit such a sensitive nerve.

    • Jvm3

      I respectfully disagree. He certainly does not have a *professional* obligation to use his radio or television time to speak out against the church. He’s there to promote a book, to sell it to the audience. Alienating one or more groups of people is counterproductive in this endeavor. For example, a strong majority of Hollywood players are liberal democrats, but when they’re on Letterman or Leno promoting a movie, you will not hear them speak out against, say, the Republican Party, Fox News or the NRA. They risk losing a significant portion of potential consumers. Their obligations are to the studio, the publishers, the financiers, etc., and not to their specific agenda.

      As for his personal reasons to not speak out, what’s more important than family? Perhaps he fears being disconnected from them. Perhaps it’s even simpler, that he has a good relationship with his parents and his sister and doesn’t want to lose that by making them look foolish and attacking their beliefs. Would that be so horrible?

      But why isn’t he already disconnected from them? This may come as a surprise, but celebrities, the wealthy or anyone of influence seem to be treated differently in Scientology.

      • monkeyknickers

        Hi sweets.

        I addressed this above, but I think it’s important enough to say again:

        We are people first, and professional second. If my profession meant I owned a lawnmower, would I refuse to use it to help my elderly neighbor because I just got off work? Of course not.

        I understand what it means to have family inside. I think my sister a million times a day. Well . . . . a trillion, every time I look at my beautiful, special little niece whose mama left her.

        Family is the most important thing to me. But if I were hustling a record (in the very VERY low level way I do from time to time) right now instead of being a big fat pregnant person whose sister recently stole all her money for scientology and then disappeared into the Sea Org leaving her child behind

        (taking a breath) :))

        . .. . . . . I can GUARANTEE YOU that I would be talking about the Church of Sci.
        Because I have an obligation to all the other mothers and sisters and sons and daughters out there to fucking step up.

        Young men are KILLING themselves. Babies have been kept 30 to a room 24 hours a day and cower at the sight of the sun the one day they’re allowed to go outside. Women are being robbed of their children and their humanity. PEOPLE ARE BEING TORTURED.

        So we – all of us – have an obligation to at least MENTION it.

        If you have a tool that can help stop these awful things from happening – use it. It’s just that some of us have a squirt gun, and others of us have an AK-47.

        Either way – lock ‘n’ load, then pull the fucking trigger.

        (I am a cranky pregnant woman sorry I love you okay that’s it)

        • Jvm3

          First of all, you never have apologize for being a cranky pregnant woman! And I don’t even think you’re acting cranky or unreasonable. You’re very passionate about speaking out against the evils of Scientology. You’ve seen much of it firsthand. You’re more than justified in doing so, and its very admirable. But maybe this dude didn’t have the same negative experiences. Or, more likely, he did, and just doesn’t want to upset his family. Maybe he only has a Super Soaker with no water in it? Without really knowing his story, its hard to determine if he could or should be more involved in speaking out. And I guess my main point in the earlier post was just that when these people are plugging their product to an audience, it’s usually a strategy of “get in, get out” without making a fool of yourself or offending a particular subsection of people. Should it be that way? Maybe not, but that’s how people on the business end would like it to be — and so it is.

          • monkeyknickers

            I absolutely appreciate that sentiment and this – despite all the self righteousness and cussing – isn’t a judgment call exactly.

            To be totally honestly I LOVE Neil Gaiman, and his writing has brought me many hours of pleasure.

            But he knows. How could you not. If he doesn’t, it’s willful ignorance. In which case he needs to extra step up now.

            But whether or not you’re packing a big punch, we have an obligation. Loving your family so much that you don’t speak up does them an enormous disservice. It’s like telling your best girlfriend that her ass doesn’t look fat in those jeans when she in fact appears to have two volleyballs affixed to her buttocks.

            I think anyway.

            Woof I should lie down or something.

            • tetloj

              Î agree. With all you have said MK. And I believe his inaction will come to haunt him. Not karma or anything, but this will come down and questions will be asked. Maybe not to his face and maybe even by his kids. He will have the pain of trying to explain his actions to people he cares about. The future is not bright for any deniers, more so celebrity deniers.

            • Robert Eckert

              Does this dress make my backside look big?

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPX2cQP8uoI

            • monkeyknickers

              LAUGHING STILL.

            • GlibWog

              The Best… absolute Best..hahahhaha

        • GlibWog

          I get it Monkey.. We all get it.. It is just so damn frustrating.
          I do know ONE thing.. If I were ever in trouble I would want YOU to have my back.. ox Glibby

          • monkeyknickers

            I already got your back, sweetie :) Just give me an address.

            And a couple car seats.

            And . . . . um . . . . a . . . . shit idk – a mobile with fish or whatever on it.

            :)

            • GlibWog

              Awwwwwww … You can have the world my love..

    • Mrs Libnish

      I get what you are saying, but it’s not “apples to apples” using Lori Hodgsen as an example. She became a public critic after her children had disconnected from her. While she was fighting to get them out, she was under the radar as far as publicly speaking out goes. She was at Rathbun’s place getting “counseling” about her kids when the Squirrel Busters first made their appearance. Marty shielded her from those assholes, even though they knew she was there and never spoke publicly about it until recently.

      Neil still has family in, he still has a lot to lose.

      Fight Club quote “It’s only after we’ve lost everything that we are free to do anything”.

    • WildaBeast

      In some ways I agree with you 100%, and in some ways I don’t. I DO agree with you that, all things being equal, he damn well should say at the *very* least why he left. But I’m not sure all things are equal here. His entire family is still in. I know how much I’ve been willing to forgive my psycho-ass family members (I put up with EVERYTHING until my mother asked me while she was drunk and I was 3 months clean to get her a lethal dose of morphine to kill herself with; the only reason I drew the line there was because my mother was the one who unknowingly brought HER mother the pills that my grandmother used to kill herself with). Yes, they’re crazy; yes, they’re toxic; but then there are those moments where you see the actual person under all the crazy, that one moment when they forget everything and smile for real, just from loving life for a second…and God only knows, with family, you’d do almost anything not to lose those moments when you see them come alive.
      So maybe that’s why he keeps his mouth shut. And if that’s why, I find it hard to get angry with him for it. If he was disconnected already and he still wasn’t talking, then I’d be enraged. Right now I’m more inclined to see him as a potential blackmail victim. He may also have that syndrome where people really fuck you up and then you get away from them and start thinking it’s your own fault somehow that you got that fucked up; in that case, he needs therapy. Or it could be that the whole leaving process was so awful for him that he just wants to ignore everything he can about it; in THAT case, he needs therapy and he needs to man up and look at himself and the cult and rethink his position. (Agh, too many ‘and’s in there; I’m not going to fix it.)
      Also, his leaving the cult is shrouded in secrecy as far as I can tell. Did he route out properly? Did he just stop making donations one day? Did he do ANYTHING that would have gotten him declared if his family wasn’t Grand High Muck-a-Mucks of Clam Nation, and he wasn’t the guy who did Sandman? He might feel as though he owes them his silence for the preferential treatment of remaining connected to his family (in which case, therapy).
      All I’m saying is, there’s a decent chance they have him over a barrel. And if they do, he’s still a victim of their damn machinations, whether he’s out or not.

    • kindacrazymom

      yes we need to! we all need to. That’s how I “woke up” from the “cult”!!

      • WildaBeast

        If someone’s speaking out reached you and helped you realize what Scientology really is, that is AMAZING. It’s hard, I think, to talk openly about horrible things that have happened to you, or that you’ve participated in – and it’s especially hard the first times you do it. It takes courage and can be very painful. But it can be so effective at reaching others who are in a similar position, and helping them to have another look at their situations. Every time someone’s statement, based on experience, helps someone else to change what they’re doing and spare themselves more pain, it makes so much of the pain worth it. Especially when it’s someone like you, who seems eager to speak out in turn and help someone else later on down the line.
        Seeing you post here makes me really happy. I hope everything turns out wonderfully for you.

    • Casabeca

      Days like today make me remember that this cult is not some abstract bully. It is hurting real people, lovely people, friends like you! Your humor usually hides the pain. I am so glad you let us see how deep it goes. Wish I could make it better. You are a great fighter when needed. In the end I think love will win.

    • enturbulate the cult

      He does have 3 kids with his ex wife, so what should he do? If he speaks out he will loose contact with them. Should his children loose their dad so he can speak out? Should he just abandon his kids to the cult? If he spoke out this is what he would be doing. These are the blackmail, no choice situations the cult creates. Remember Neil himself was a child victim of this cult, and considering they have his children as leverage against him, still seems to be, so have some sympathy. Speaking out is important but surely not at the cost of three more children loosing a parent. The cult thinks the end justifies the means regarding who gets hurt. This is not the attitude we should take when protesting them.

  • Sunny Sands

    When the interviewer tells Neil they have a recording of him, his immediate response is that he was thrown out of school because his parents were scientologists. That must have been so traumatic for a young child. So happy that Neil is out and not giving his book earnings money to promote the cult.

    It seems like there are different disconnection rules for wealthy, high profile exes. Lisa Marie, Neil, Katie Holmes and Suri don’t seem to be disconnected from their still-in families.

    • Eclipse-girl

      Nor do they speak evil of the cult or of DM.

  • Krew13

    This interview proves how heroic Katie was to put herself at risk by escaping the clutches of Top Gun and his Sciloon army of thugs in order to protect her daughter. She’s protected Suri from being brainwashed and damaged as a young child by this poisonous pyramid scheme, AKA David Miscmidget’s pension fund.

    A pity Nicole Kidman’s adopted kids weren’t rescued from the Sciloon clutches, which is why they no longer talk to her, because Cruise and his Sciloon enforcers repeatedly drilled into the kids that Kidman’s an evil SP. But in a way, Kidman’s won. She may not have contact with her kids, but she’s in a normal happy marriage with a normal man who doesn’t put his membership of a cult above all else, and she’s got an Oscar, which Tomboy still hasn’t been able to get. And she’s also got credibility. Her name hasn’t become a byword for batshit insane.

    • Sidney18511

      Your post reminded me of when TC announced his divorce plans and Nicole was shocked, she didn’t have a clue that there was a problem. Then the little big being hisself said “Nic KNOWS what she did”.
      I would bet dollars to donuts that they leaked info from her folders’ something she said that DM KNEW would piss TC off…..and they told him

      • aquaclara

        Ouch. That’s really evil, but you’re right – all the parts fit. NOWWWW it makes sense. *smacking my head*
        It would be an outstanding cult-expose (how do you make the “e” get that accent mark?) if this were a. verified, b. published, and c. became public knowledge.

        • Krew13

          “how do you make the “e” get that accent mark?”

          An awesome piece of WOG tech called copy and paste. ;-)

        • ze moo

          Look up ascii codes and become an übergeek.

          • noseinabk

            ascii keyboard codes

            http://rmhh.co.uk/ascii.html

          • Robert Eckert

            Here’s my trick when I want é or whatever and can’t be arsed to look up the codes: open up http://translate.google.com and pick the language French (for accents) or German (for umlauts) or Spanish (for ñ or ç) and there will be a keyboard in the lower left so you can hit the character and cut-paste from there.

            • Poison Ivy

              Or just hold down the letter until the choices come up.

            • Robert Eckert

              ? When I hold down a letter, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is what comes up.

            • media_lush

              on a mac it’s hold down the alt key and hit e, release the alt key and hit e again and you should get é

            • Jvm3

              On windows machines, you can just run “charmap.exe” Just Start -> Run -> type in “charmap” Simple as that

            • Robert Eckert

              ? OK, before if I dare to run a random executable I prefer to have a little more warning what the consequences are going to be.

            • Jvm3

              “Charmap” is just short for “character map” it gives you the full layout of all 256 ascii characters in any font set in a neat little graphical window, with the option to copy/paste any of them. It’s included as a basic Windows system file. I wouldn’t be recommending anything that is going to damage your system. It’s just a helpful tool.

            • Robert Eckert

              I see, thanks.

            • aquaclara

              Thanks!

          • aquaclara

            This made me laugh. I went to a very techie/geeky university, yet majored in the most un-tech/un-geek subjects ever. Fortunately, there were always people around who could figure things out. If the power button isn’t lit, or there isn’t an app for something, I call for help. And we just pretend that I have other, far more useful talents.

        • Unex Skcus

          In Windows, search for ‘Character Map’.

          • aquaclara

            Thanks!

      • Captain Howdy

        According to rumor the secret info that D.M revealed to Cruise was that Kidman had an affair with Ewan McGegor when they were shooting “Moulin Rouge” and that the baby she miscarried was his.

        • ze moo

          That ‘rumor’ has been everywhere. Also supposedly, Nichole had the fetus genetically tested and it was TC’s (tabloid war can be difficult to figure out). I suspect that was the excuse TC used to divorce her. Not that the marriage was almost 10 years old and additional property and money rights would accrue to Nichole. With Co$, always follow the money. Is Nichole stupid enough to admit to anything in an ‘auditing’ session???

          • Captain Howdy

            Supposedly this info came from the OSA, not an auditing session.

        • Sidney18511

          Ya know….I bet your right. I remember reading that Nicole SAVED the miscarried fetus to have DNA testing done to prove who the father was. As a matter of fact, she was pregnant when he announced the divorce and the stress might of contributed to her losing the baby.

    • N. Graham

      And she’s known as “smart enough to leave.”

  • Krew13

    I still think it’s amazing that Her Royal Governor, Nancy Cartwright, didn’t see the irony when she did the episode on The Movementarians in The Simpsons. It’s the most beautiful satire on the Sciloons, especially Homer’s line about signing up to 10 trillion years of labour! Cartwright has obviously been so brainwashed, the penny never dropped when she read the script.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXrjFLOX9j8

    • Sydjazz

      I was thinking that too. Maybe it wasn’t “clear” enough for her.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        or Maybe she just doesn’t give a damn about people on her quest to become God.

        • Studious Judious

          Scientology THE religion for rich narcissists. Where you too can become completely self-centered and lose all compunction.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            I used to pipe up indignant and all and ceremoniously dispel the notion that ALL scientologists are social rejects. However, at this point and time, I have not seen one single piece of evidence that the last remaining members are anything but the dregs and dragons of the human gene pool except for the prisoners of war they keep on ice by threat of whatever. When a narcissist gets Me upset, I just remember that while they don’t get upset about anyone, they also don’t get to feel loved by anyone.

            • Marie Claire Wolf

              They live in fear of exposure: “fear can stop you loving”… Sing along with me.

            • ThetaBara

              Yeah, after reading that sociopath book I’m convinced it must be a miserable fate.

        • Nevermore

          {But, but, she’s one of the most ethical people on the planet – of course she does!}

    • Bob

      Anyone notice the cover of the book he is holding. Looks a lot like the Hub. A lot. Nancy would not be able to get that from the script but there are lots of other lines that make it pretty clear its Clamatology.

    • Jvm3

      The episode has some hints of Scientology, but The Movementarians are definitely more like Heavens Gate or just a mashup of a generic cult.

      • Graham

        Yes, I think the Movementarians were made up of bits from several cults. Friends who were in the Bhagwan movement certainly identified with some parts of it (Driving past in a Rolls Royce IIRC)

      • dbloch7986

        I remember watching it when I was still in. Didn’t really connect with Scientology for me. It’s like Mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, The People’s Temple all in one.

        • Jvm3

          Were you still in when the South Park episode aired?

    • DamOTclese2

      She read the script and yeah, it never even twigged in her idiot brain that she was going to be mocking her own crime syndicate’s cult-like behavior. She’s a dimwitted idiot.

  • villagedianne

    If Gaiman’s childhood interview took place today, young Neil would have been sec-checked for criticizing young Steve, who was higher up in his training.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      I hope Steve is out there somewhere, perhaps a newly minted SP now, hearing this BBC program. If I was him, I’d write up a Knowledge Report on his bud, Neil. Maybe all SP’s should write a Knowledge Report on his bud, Neil. Here’s the ethics offense and it is a High Crime and grounds for an immediate Declare: Publicly Disavowing Scientology. He Does say over and over that he is No longer a scientologist. My question is: Why aren’t all the 8,000 – 12,000 remaining scientologists on the planet writing up KR’s on Neil Gaiman?

      [IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/25h02f8.jpg[/IMG]

      • filosofa

        Exactly. Why does Neil Gaiman get to disavow the evil cult with no dire repercussions and/or disconnection from his family? While so many less “important” members are made to suffer so extremely if they dare leave the “church”.

        He may no longer be a $cientolgist, but the donation from his still-in ex wife in both their names, even after their divorce, is odd. His rather deft (as Tony Ortega wittily puts it) handling of the questions in the interview seemed evasive rather than emphatic. At the very least, by choosing not to speak out and merely “handling” the question he comes across as an apologist. And a coward.

        On a selfish note, I had only just become a Co$ watcher when I learned that Gaiman had co-authored a book – GOOD OMENS – with one of my most favourite writers, the wonderful Terry Pratchett. My first thought was Ohmigod!! Terry Pratchett has become a $cientogist – is nothing sacred?!!
        He hadn’t, and remains a Humanist, as far as I’m aware. Phew…’

      • Eclipse-girl

        It would force the situation. Maybe that is what is required for all those who have left and are hurt by disconnection.

    • http://misstia.dreamwidth.org/ Miss Tia

      Yep, he didn’t have the “fucking rank” to say that!

    • Sidney18511

      It is kinda obvious that he is using the “good roads, fair weather” policy because he is a weak pansy coward who doesn’t give a shit about ANYONE he is not related to.

  • dwayners13 .

    So a 7 year old kid who hadn’t even reached the level of “clear” yet, was able to do something that the “Pope” of Scientology is simply too insecure & afraid to do . . . give an interview & answer questions that weren’t forwarded to him before hand. (Before anyone writes back, I realize that Miscavige did give one interview on Nightline over a decade ago.)

    • Sidney18511

      I think when he gave that interview the Hubtub was still the big cheeseball.

      • Eclipse-girl

        NO, the interview was in the early 1990s (1992 I think) LRH was long gone.

        • Studious Judious

          Neil Gaiman was born in 1960. If he was 7 at the time, then the interview was in 1967, roughly.

          • TonyOrtega

            Neil was born in November, 1960. The interview he gave to the BBC was in August, 1968. He was seven years old. Miscavige’s appearance on Nightline was in 1992, six years after the death of Hubbard.

            • Studious Judious

              Thanks for clarifying.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Don’t you love it when he goes all “Joe Friday”!
              That’s one of the reasons this place is so fucking cool!

            • joan nieman

              lol

            • Mark

              “Just the facts, ma’am.”

            • Robert Eckert

              “As a con-man, you’re a flop…”

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxhuUdZzGYw

        • Sidney18511

          Eclipse……..the bunker story SAYS that this was recorded in 1968. The hubster was still the boss man.

          • Eclipse-girl

            Sorry, I stand corrected

    • Bob

      The mouse king does not dare to show his face in public lest he gets immediately cornered and eaten by the numerous cats waiting by his mouse hole. If you have ever seen a mouse that’s cornered, they shiver and shake and then they die of fright.

      • Robert Eckert

        He has not dared to leave Clearwater for weeks. I think he fears that if he steps outside somebody will sneak up on him and serve a subpoena.

        • Bob

          Makes sense. His only safe havens are Flag, Freewinds and gold. LA is not really too safe for him anymore. And I imagine he only flys private jets. Think of the cost of that.

          • aquaclara

            JT and TC each have jets. I think Davey has a jet, too. Flag, Freewinds and Gold. Only two more than he inflicted upon Shelly.
            The noose, figuratively speaking, is tightening.

            • Bob

              Yes. No where to run no where to hide. They ally’s keep bombing closer and closer to the homeland.

    • ScooterLibbby

      I remember that Nightline atrocity well. That’s when I learned why Ted Koppel always did his interviews by video. He just couldn’t ask tough questions in person, face to face. He just chickened out! The little dwarf just evaded & lied about everything & Koppel had no retorts!

      But it was spread out over three nights if I recall.

      • Poison Ivy

        I thought Ted was great with Davey. Polite but clearly 100% disgusted by the bullshit and kept requesting proof which of course Davey could not provide.

    • DamOTclese2

      Don’t forget Heber Jentzsch’s awesome television appearances, Ted Kopple’s was probably the most wonderful fucking insane lunatic Scientology kook spew evah.

  • Cymboli

    5am? I’ll still be experiencing my wacked out dreams from Chantix.

    • ThetaBara

      3am Cali time. I’ll probably still be up, with a cocktail.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      I will be catching up around 9-10 Eastern.
      I am just not a morning person.

  • EnthralledObserver

    Off to bed for me… back tomoz… keep the fires burning. :D

    • Marie Claire Wolf

      Nighty night ZZZZZZZ….

    • Captain Howdy

      12:31 AM Sydney time

      We need to talk to our scientology OT friends about postulating these time differences into a new and better reality.

    • 1subgenius

      I’ll alert the media.

      • Sidney18511

        Ahh sub, from the movie “Arthur”. I can’t remember how old that flick is but I STILL use that line with my kids and now I will occasionally hear them using it on each other.

        • 1subgenius

          Damn, you’re good. I, too, still use the line, obviously.
          Maybe you can refresh my recollection on a similar droll response.
          Butler replies to a command: “I live for that sort of thing.”
          (Maybe same movie?)

          • Sidney18511

            Yeah!! There was a great line like that but I can’t remember it exactly. The butler had the best lines….”are your ready for breakfast or would you prefer to throw up first sir”

            • 1subgenius

              I also like to use “That gives me a reason to live.”, which I believe I stole from Howard Stern of all people.

              Works sarcastically, or straight.

          • sugarplumfairy

            Dudley Moore: Do you want to run a bath for me?

            Sir John Gielgud: It’s what I live for..

        • 1subgenius

          Props to the writer
          Steve Gordon.
          RIP.
          Has quite an impressive list of credits.
          http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0330619/?ref_=tt_ov_wr

          • Robert Eckert

            “One usually must go to a bowling alley to meet a lady of your caliber.”

  • DamOTclese2

    There is no such thing as a “7-Year-Old Scientologist.” There are children who are subjected to child abuse inflicted by their parents, but there is no such thing as a “7-Year-Old Scientologist.”

    • Mr. Fabulous

      I agree. This applies not only to the Scientology faux religion, but any other religion as well.

      • DamOTclese2

        It’s why religion manages to survive in an age where we have landed humans on the moon, visited other planets via robot, discovered the half life of the proton, unwrapped the DNA helix, managed to divest ourselves of abject ignorance of reality. Fucking kid’s’ brains in to pudding by shoveling delusional insanity in to their heads when they are defenseless and incapable of critical thought is the only reason death cults survive. :(

        • Mr. Fabulous

          Amen to that. The difference between a belief in Body Thetans and a belief in Jesus? Only one; one of them has to be paid for.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Hmmmmm.

        I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior when I was five years old. I knew what I was doing, and made an informed decision. At five. My parents didn’t beat me and I wasn’t coerced by religious instructors.

        Just an observation, nothing more.

        • Jvm3

          Agreed. And, at least in my Catholic school, we didn’t begin taking “Religion” class until the third grade. We received First Communion rites in second grade, but they more or less walked us through the ceremonial aspects of that. The actual studying of the Bible didn’t begin until a year later. I never really thought about this until now, but it seems strange that the class was actually called “Religion”. It was only about one religion, and we’re all from the same religion. I don’t know why it wasn’t called “Bible class” or “Scripture class”. I don’t have any relevant point here, just a strange thing looking back on it.

          • CraftLass

            Wow, we started Religion class in 1st grade, maybe even Kindergarten but I wasn’t in Catholic school then. “Bible study” wouldn’t have encompassed our class, though. So much Catholicism has little to do with the Bible itself, you have to learn the thousands of years’ worth of additional rules, beliefs, and rites that aren’t in it anywhere. Our religion class did include other religions as well, but 95% of it was on Catholicism, naturally.

            I don’t think all children are just puppets of adults at such early ages. I renounced Catholicism by the end of 1st grade (age 6) and did it knowingly and most certainly did not have encouragement from any direction to do so, quite the opposite, I was forced to pretend for the next 10 years. By 7 I knew for sure I was not Christian. People underestimate children so frequently!

            That said, if a child has been completely sheltered and only exposed to one point of view, s/he could not be expected to make any sort of informed choice. That’s true even at much older ages. That’s a very effective way to indoctrinate a child, truly, but it also can lead to some real disasters when that child grows up and has to exist in the real world, not to mention that a loss of or change in faith can be catastrophic psychologically after such a childhood.

            • Sandy

              CraftLass – Perfect. I was completely sheltered in a small rural MN town. Everyone but a hand full in a small RCC church, was Protestant (mostly Lutheran). I envied kids with brown eyes, cuz everyone had blue. When I left for college in Colorado, I saw my first, real life black person (!!!). When I came back to MN to finish college my Jr year, I took a Bible as Lit class. Shook me to my core. I completely lost all faith. If I had been better prepared like PI and others, I might of handled the info differently.

            • CraftLass

              I highly recommend the book “Generation Atheist” to you, a collection of essays by young adults who have been through a loss of faith (many different faiths), you might find it extremely relatable and it’s a quick, fun read. You’ll laugh and cry and shout out, “Me too!” a bunch of times, I’d bet.

              I think reading the Bible, the whole Bible, is about the best way to come to a crisis in faith. Even better is reading multiple versions. Isn’t it amazing how different that book is when you don’t just cherry-pick passages? Also amazing: The way you can use Bible quotes to justify ANYTHING. Like during the fight over slavery, where both sides used the Bible to argue their position. I once had a giant Bible-quote bash with a bunch of homophobic protesters in Times Square, they kept shouting that awful Leviticus quote at us and we refuted them with lots of Gospel quotes about love and kindness. lol

              Glad you got to leave and study and find yourself! I can’t even imagine that you were an adult when you first saw a black person, that is mind-boggling to an East Coast gal! I also really hope that you found a good support system after going through all those changes.

              If I was a rich person, I would totally found a community where people of all religious backgrounds, particularly cults, could come and decompress and study together and help each other prepare for the real world in a new way, based on critical thinking and reasoning and actual humanitarianism. Escaping even a non-cult religion, especially when you come from a community that will reject you for a lack of/change in faith, can be so difficult. It was easy for me, as I was so young and never a True Believer in anything, so I wish I could make it easier for everyone else who goes through it.

              Ahhhh, dreams. :-)

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          That is an interesting observation. But looking back on that do you really think you had access to all of the available information and that your young psyche was well formed enough for such certainty?
          This is an honest question.

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            ALL of the available information? I wasn’t reading Consumer Reports…! But yes, my young psyche was well formed for such certainty. I have since had my moments, that’s for sure. I am not one of those people who believes that all doubt is of the Devil.

  • Watergate

    I’ll be digitally murdered for saying this – but I think Neil’s actually doing an awesome job of thumbing his nose at the the Church of Scientology by managing to keep his family connections intact.

    I completely, completely, completely understand why those whose families and lives have been destroyed through disconnection wish he would come out and say, “Fuck Scientology!”

    But what I heard Neil didn’t say speaking loud and clear. He did not deny the interviewer’s assertion that Neil was completely out of Scientology.

    Neil has a weapon most people don’t have — significant celebrity and a big microphone. He’s using that weapon to keep his family together. It’s hard for me to excoriate him for that.

    • Bob

      I agree. Easy to vilify someone when you’ve never been there yourself. He has much more power over his family if he can still talk to them. Every Scientologist has to deal with the fact that an intelligent and immensely successful author and screenwriter chooses to be OUT of the cult.

    • villagedianne

      Oh Nooooooooes! You’re being reasonable!!!

    • Mrs Libnish

      I agree. It’s one of the few “win, win” stories we get to hear about. Why shouldn’t he try to keep it that way?

  • Sidney18511

    He doesn’t know ANYONE who doesn’t have a family??? Really? I wish the interviewer, who appeared to know some about scientology would of asked him about the THOUSANDS who don’t have families anymore due to the disconnection policy. What an asswipe.

    • joan nieman

      Well said Sidney 18511!

  • ze moo

    INSIDE SCIENTOLOGY by Janet Reitman has gone to paperback. Praise the Lord…..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/books/review/paperback-row.html?_r=0

    • Poison Ivy

      Your end of summer “lite” beach reading!

  • Racnad

    Come on, if Neil Gaiman wasn’t in the Sea Org and hasn’t personally witnessed the worst of Scientology, he’s certainly not under an obligation to become an anti-Scientology activist. Through Facebook & other means, I am in touch with many people I knew when I was young. Most of the people who were Scientologists or were from Scientologist families are no longer in the Church (those who are have dropped me as friends for asking questions like “are there any scientific studies backing up what you’re saying?” – so much for the magical Grade 0 communication gains!). Most are NOT outspoken activists against the church and many have relatives who are still in.
    Everyone deals with this in their own way and how they do that is their own prerogative.

  • mirele

    I believe that is 02:00 PT, I will be sleeping the sleep of the righteous at that hour. I hope to wake up and find you all have stuffed the comment section full of goodies

  • And I’m Cute, Too

    5 a.m. Eastern Standard Time? That oughta be 6 p.m. here in Japan. Perfect! Must try to be home for that… Bryan Seymour’s investigations are a dozen kinds of awesome!

    • Poison Ivy

      LOVE him!

  • N. Graham

    In our library we get books that are “Opposing Viewpoints.” These are research material giving pros and cons on general and controversial topics. The new one on Cults just came out and there is something real interesting-one of the anti-Scientologist articles was written by Amy Scobee. The book (and database) usually balances the viewpoints with one of the other side. But Scientology has apparently become so menacing (no argument here) that the SECOND article was also basically Anti-Scientology, written by Janet Reitman. Wow-I’ve never seen them do that before!

    • Poison Ivy

      Wow!

    • DamOTclese2

      There is no such thing as “anti-Scientologist,” I expect you mean “Anti-Scientology.”

      • Robert Eckert

        The way his post reads, there are two Opposing Viewpoints: the anti-Scientologist viewpoint, and the anti-Scientology viewpoint.

  • Krew13

    Coming Soon…

    David Miscmidget’s BFF in the movie event of the year…

    Jack Reacharound

  • Bob

    Mike Rinders new blog is about as concise as you can get.

    http://www.mikerindersblog.org/miscaviges-motto/

    • Mark

      Hee-hee!

      • Bob

        Funny! Specially if you have seen the original.

      • Mark

        Tee-hee again! What the Photoshopped-to-within-an-inch-of-its-life and impossible-viewpoint original fails to show is how 1080 Linda Vista Avenue is right next to, and overlooked on two sides by, a very unglamorous walled on-ramp and freeway. Too tired now to put in the smog and noise, so please feel free to imagine them.

      • phronsie

        So, Rathbun is the OSA guy who dropped out and started up his own auditing gig; and Mark Rinder also left the official cult, but does he also still say that scientology is a worthwhile thing? So far, it seems the general opinion is to take Rathburn with a big grain of salt, but what is the general feeling about Rinder?

        • Robert Eckert

          Rinder is still good friends with Rathbun (I think Rathbun was best man at his wedding a while back) and does not renounce the Tek. However, people tend to like him better around here; he does not seem to be engaged in any slipperiness, and since he was raised in the cult he is less culpable.

          • Sherbet

            It’s Rinder’s cool accent that does it for me.

            • Robert Eckert

              That too.

            • EnthralledObserver

              His not really Aussie, not really American… but something warped in between accent???
              :p

        • Mark

          Mike Rinder is more favourably regarded, at least by Bunkerites: his blog is often quoted here with approval, because his dislike of Miscavige (or ‘Voldemort’ as he often calls him) accords with the majority Bunker view. He & Tony often post links to each other’s sites. I surmise that Mike probably does think there’s something worthwhile, at least in part, in Dianetics at least (as practised independently), but is content to be discreet about his private beliefs – the most important consideration being to bring down the loathesome Miscavige & all his works as soon as possible.

          Marty Rathbun was getting less sympathy here, as you imply – because of his OSA past and continuing open advocacy of $cientology “tech” on his website and in a series of increasingly contentious books, but since being “fair-gamed” by the Squirrelbusters (which forced him to move house) and his wife Mosey’s lawsuit over the way she’s been shamefully persecuted too, he’s no longer quite the ogre he once was.

        • Zer0

          Rinder is cool. I like his blog. He’s out for blood and works well with Tony. And he’s even posted here!! I think he got the record for the most up-votes.

          The first (and only) post I made on his blog was critical of the COS, and he made a thoughtful reply.

    • Missionary Kid

      Mike states the case well.

  • Mark

    To those here who have predictably accused Neil Gaiman of cowardice (or worse) in that interview, please don’t forget that this is British $cientology we’re talking about here, where at least a scintilla of common-sense sometimes still seems to prevail, away from the malign proximity of Shortarse Miscavige – and the threat of disconnection to families and relationships is consequently rather less potent.

    If Gaiman were a real coward, he would surely have adopted the tactic of complete silence, or going into a strategic hissy-fit, whenever quizzed on the subject of the Co$ and his family members who are “still in”. Instead, he handled the interviewer’s question deftly, as Tony says – even tactfully – the implication being that his family has found some sort of modus vivendi that circumvents the cult’s poisonous separatism.

    Whatever that modus vivendi might be – and I think it’s fairly safe to assume it exists because he still loves his mother and sister, in spite of everything – Gaiman is perfectly entitled to say as much or as little about it as he chooses in public: it’s his family’s business, and nobody else’s.

    Nor should we forget that he has been very lucky – his connection with Co$ came at a time when Hubbard had fled Saint Hill for the Sea Org (was indeed officially barred from ever re-entering the UK) and before Miscavige really got his claws into the cult. He also has the advantages of some literary celebrity, and the resultant ability to get his voice heard in public, to protect him from any attempts at “fair gaming”.

    I think it’s well worth while for would-be critics to read Gaiman’s The Ocean at the End of the Lane before they start casting too many aspersions: it’s not just a good story, but for those able to spot a subtext, it reveals a lot about what being a seven-year old $cientologist must have been like – unnerving to say the least.

    If there is a justifiable criticism of Gaiman’s present attitude to the Co$, it might just be that he’s a bit complacent, having got away with his sanity and (some of) his family intact.

    Rather than cowardice, perhaps it’s more a case of discretion being the better part of valour?

    • Bob

      Mark, very well put. There’s not much chance that Neil will get back in but certainly a chance his family will get out.

      • Mark

        Let’s hope so.

        • Bob

          Mark, Little by little the wind and rain wear away the mountain. I never in a million years thought I would turn from Clamatology. But here I am. It’s only a matter of time.

          • aquaclara

            Wind, rain, and the relentless encouragement of happy, funny Bunkerite SPs, who never give up. Plus the most important part – an open heart and mind, free to think of the possibilities of a new, fresh start to life.
            “It’s only a matter of time.” You go, Bob!!! We’re here!

            • Bob

              Thanks AC. Being there is what got me started on the road to recovery.

            • Sandy

              What a happy testament. Way to go, Bob

            • GlibWog

              Oh Bob.. Tears in my eyes.. (( HUGS))) I am so glad that you come here and we can give you support. We are here for you … xoxo smooches

            • aquaclara

              Good work. truly. It can’t be easy. Have you read Marc Headley’s book, Blown For Good? Great read….I thought it was compelling to see where his own “tipping point” was. Once he started hearing things from TV, online, etc, it started to all come together.

              It also showed how unbelievably hard and complicated it is to leave. Wishing you all the best. I hope it all works out well, soon!

              Now, what are you going to have for your celebration breakfast when you take that big step away? Bacon and pancakes….? Yumm.

            • Bob

              AC, thanks. I did my celebration awhile ago. Being out is a state of mind more than anything. Once I knew the truth I was on the path to being myself and it has been wonderful and continues to reveal more and more to me.

    • Illinoisian

      “. . . it’s well worth while for would-be critics to read Gaiman’s The Ocean at the End of the Lane . . . it’s not just a good
      story, but for those able to spot a subtext, it reveals a lot about what
      being a seven-year old $cientologist must have been like – unnerving to
      say the least.” Very much agree. I found it to be a very compelling read. Knowing the bits of Gaiman’s childhood history that were covered in the previous article here at the Bunker . . . well . . . just read it. Enter a magical and often dark world and see how life is for a bright and observant child who is surrounded by family members who are spellbound and oblivious.

      • Mark

        At least there’s one thing we can all probably agree on: Neil Gaiman is an infinitely better author than L. Ron Hubbard!

        • Poison Ivy

          And then some.

  • Sunny Sands

    Tent watchers’ update: Tent poles are now up.

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Is this some sort of code…?

      • Sunny Sands

        Er, no.

        • Douglas D. Douglas

          It was a joke.

          • Sunny Sands

            So was mine :-).

      • Robert Eckert

        The sheep flies at midnight.

        • Mark

          My hovercraft is full of eels.

          • http://frankdisalleisadummy.wordpress.com/ Get Chutney Love

            “The sun is shining, but the ice is slippery.”

            • Mark

              Don’t use vaseline: it rots the rubber.

            • Graham

              “When the seagulls follow the trawler it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.”

            • Mark

              Potrzebie bounces.

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Poiuyt!

            • Mark

              Furshlugginer veeblefetzer!

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              I had one grunch but the eggplant over there.

            • GlibWog

              ” Hey Baby Won’t Cha Take A Chance…
              I left my Rubbers in my other Pants.. Uh Let’s Dance… “

        • sugarplumfairy

          This is fun, but I have to get up really early tomorrow..

    • Studious Judious

      It’s strange, but I love the tent updates. Thanks.

    • DamOTclese2

      Tent polls are up, growing oak trees are down. Fucking cult!

    • dbloch7986

      So would you say that the Superpower Opening is causing miscavich to…..*sunglasses off* pitch a tent…. *sunglasses on* YEAAAAAHHHHHH

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

      • Mark

        Aargh! Not that ginger-pubed smugboots again, Derek! (How to destroy any remaining credibility ‘The Who’ might still have while still putting royalties Pete Townshend’s way).

        • dbloch7986

          In all honesty, I do not want to know how you know what his pubes look like LOL

          • Mark

            I’m assuming (ech) “matching collar and cuffs”.

            • dbloch7986

              I love his ridiculous puns though.

        • Nevermore

          Now now, no gingerism!

          • Mark

            I used to have ginger bits in my beard.

            • sugarplumfairy

              You should chew your biscuits more carefully..

      • Nevermore

        LOL! Every time he does that, my dad shouts ‘arsehole!’ at the telly!

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Well by golly gee. Saving this picture. For a brief moment in time, scientology actually Was “straight up and vertical”. Thanks for these updates with pics and everything!

      • Jvm3

        Curiously, a lot of the tent poles are not “straight up and vertical” but rather standing diagonally and leaning. I hope they are applying proper tent tech so no one gets hurt.

        • aboutandout

          That was my first thought when I saw the poles. Let’s hope they are qualified people erecting the tent and not the SO members.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            I just hope they hired the cheapest local contractor ….grins!

            • Robert Eckert

              The SO members ARE the cheapest locals.

            • aboutandout

              lol

    • Captain Howdy

      Tent Watcher FTW!

    • Missionary Kid

      Are they going to have pole dancers?

      • George Layton

        Sadly it will likely be more akin to Vlad’s pikes. Metaphorically speaking of course.

      • dbloch7986

        No that’s where they plan to place the heads of all the declared SPs to ward off anyone who seeks to undermine Miscavige’s authority.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          BAM! Oh lordy. I just imagined Justine Timberlake doing a music video of “Heads on a Pike” like “Dick in a Box.” hah. For newbies, part of L Ron Hubbard, the Humanitarian, policy:

          “The recognition as a suppressive is our hanging. When things are bad (bad indicators are strongly visible), it is very beneficial to hang a body for the gallows. We call it ‘putting a head on a pike.’ … ‘When the emergency situation has been cleared up, you usually have to put one or two heads on a pike to convince people that you meant it seriously.’ … ‘Ethics is the steamroller..SUPPRESSIVES! Eradicate them. Find the suppressive and shoot him. Peace reigns.’ ” That Hubster …what a guy.

          http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/germany/books/bdwopc4.htm

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Why Not? If faux nuns can Pole for the Soul, the regges should be able to Pole for the Hole (IAS style). Am I right? bwaaa…I’m crackin’ Myself up today!

        http://youtu.be/BnqTw1eM7ng

        • Missionary Kid

          *eyeroll, laugh, snickersnort* all at once. THDN, you’ve outdone yourself.

        • GlibWog

          Pole For The Hole.. OMG… Quit it right now!

    • ze moo

      Miscavige does get very excited around IAS time. Too much apparently….

    • Poison Ivy

      Tree killers.

    • Eclipse-girl

      The permits are not even issued. Can they set up the poles without permits?

      • Sunny Sands

        They got this permit on Aug. 16. It says install a modular metal frame and canopy on the balcony. The circus tent isn’t on a balcony.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          You can see their little pop up canopy tent where they have water jugs. Good point about the permits. Is Miscavige giving city officials enough middle finger? Hmmmm.

    • Observer

      I’m postulating a tornado to touch down right on top of the tent when it’s finished and whisk it away, with no further damage or injuries to anyone. Unless it wants to scoop Davey up and deposit him in Oz (the fictional one, not Down Under).

      • EnthralledObserver

        We appreciate that… we certainly don’t want him here. :)

      • GlibWog

        Don’t ruin Oz for me Obs. Have him thrown into Hubs stupid volcano ..

        hahhahha eeeeeeeew I would hate to have his slimy cooties on me.. ugh

    • aquaclara

      Thanks!!

  • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

    In Neil Gaiman I see his father’s dodging PR deflecting answers and manner to remain warm and reassuring.

    Neil’s manner is very uncomfortable intellectually for me.

    He sort of is using the worst of Hubbard’s bad self serving selection of already bad PR dodging tactics, that are one of the big reasons people get frustrated with Scientology for it’s lack of letting it’s members freely criticize Hubbard and Hubbard’s movement behavior.

    Neil reminds me of his dad at his dad’s worst, which is Hubbard at Hubbard’s worst PR spinning PR deflecting answers.

    For sure he’s out of Scientology, but he’s buckled to the Scientology Hubbard penalty world and buckled to the Scientology PR tactics, which I’m sure he learned well, his father was a top PR Guardian’s Office person.

    Neil has been co opted by the Hubbard cult otherwise they’d cut Neil off!

    Contrast Neil to Jamie DeWolf!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciupsqkLLkQ

    Thanks for all you do Tony!

    Bryan Seymour was just huge with those Australian TV shows that excerpted and played for the first time, broadly, the Class 8 lecture 11, so the world could hear Hubbard’s voice clearly telling the Xenu story (which explains why so much high volume exorcism must be done to spiritually un-infest all human beings of the negative effects of the 4th Dynamic Engram).

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Thank you, Chuck. Leave it to you to explain it all calmly and cooly. You and I know what he’s doing. You know what just struck me funny? It’s understandable when someone says “I would Never fall for That!”.

      And yet I see many of those who have said just that in one way or another who “fall” for the tricky maneuvering like Neil Gaiman did with his “I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a family”. I have tried to make the point that for ex scientologists with family still in who are also celebrities or well known, there are only two avenues: Make scientology and family matters Off Limits in interviews…period. Or, they have to be totally Honest if they talk about scientology and families.

      It is only when they Lie about Disconnection in today’s media that you will hear an uproar. When it is someone as you pointed out as well versed and drilled and skilled in Hubbard PR, known as LYING, in the real world, it can Appear slippery slopey, but it is not. Disconnection is the Hot Subject right now and it is the Worst Thing anyone can Lie About. Some here took off on religious debates when this has Nothing to do with religion. None. By knowingly lying about disconnection, Neil Gaiman in my world became an Enabler, even an accomplice in scientology’s most vile and vicious control torment. He knew Exactly what he was doing.

      • WildaBeast

        Whoa, here…he didn’t just slide around it by making it all about HIS family (to whom he’s still connected)? He actually said “There is no disconnection” or something equally direct? If so, I take back my sympathy. If he’s trying to slide around the issue, I can understand why, as I said below.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Probably best to just read it again. And what I just said was that he Wasn’t being direct, he was, as Chuck explained, using Hubbard PR which is lying with evasiion and wiggle room.

          • Studious Judious

            Wiggle room is a good way of putting it. For example, couldn’t they technically still be your family even if they are disconnected? Or, Maybe he just doesn’t know anyone that has no family.

            But I didn’t read his remarks that way. My interpretation was that everyone has a family who drives them nuts sometimes. I didn’t see it as refutation or confirmation of disconnection, or in anyway related to disconnection.

            Obviously I can’t speak for what NG meant. However, it does bring to light that words may be construed in different ways by different people. And without further comment from NG, I just can’t see arguing over what we thought he meant.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              and there you have it. I completely understand that some will interpret it this way. And that’s the Hubbard PR way. A very simple, direct question gets an answer that can be “interpreted” with two or even three different meanings.

            • Candygram

              It also strikes me as kind of British. Evasive platitudes with a side of wry. Maybe I’ve just watched gosford park ten too many times. I do like Neil gaiman but do wish he’d be more open about Scientology and why he left.

              Two off topic questions: did Shelley show up at the celebrity Ctr gala? Do any of you successful bunkerites use your left hand to eat?

            • Robert Eckert

              There was no Shelly sighting.

          • WildaBeast

            I did go back and read it again and I see what you mean. It’s a very open-ended statement in some ways. He could have meant it in exactly the way you see it; he also could have meant it the way it looks on the surface – a reference to everyone being driven batshit occasionally by their relatives. However he meant it, thank you for pointing out to me the open-ended nature of the statement, because I had missed it entirely.

    • WildaBeast

      Ugh, I must need more coffee…”high volume exorcism must be done to spiritually un-infest all human beings of the negative effects of the 4th Dynamic Engram” is making my head spin.

      • Zer0

        It’s just a reference to getting rid of body thetans. Space cootie exorcism.

    • Mark

      “Contrast Neil to Jamie DeWolf!” Maybe it’s apples and oranges, but that many tattoos tends to lower my estimation of someone’s common-sense. Why not try reading Gaiman’s book?

      • Poison Ivy

        Jamie DeWolf was never in.

        • Mark

          So it is apples and oranges (or clams and squirrels) ;)

        • GlibWog

          Nope, but he will be more than happy to tell you about his Grand Pappy..

      • chuckbeattyexseaorg75to03

        Neil wasn’t a trained PR, he picked up it by osmosis living and observing his father, is what I meant.

        I wish I could locate the Xenu TV old TV show Mark Bunker used to have, in his site’s earlier format, the old TV shows, there’s one somewhere with David speaking, and to hear him is to see the connection to Neil, is all.

    • Eclipse-girl

      Would you please elaborate more on NG’s father? I read in a post that Father was kicked out of Co$ around 1983. Did NG disconnect from Father? Did the rest of the family disconnect from Father Gaiman. Then today, someone stated that NG routed out of SO while at Flag in the early 1980s. Do you know anymore to that story? Not every one makes it long term in the SO. Eddie Fischer (Bella Cruise’s ex) and Leah Remini had short stints at SO, but remained in $scientology

      • Robert Eckert

        I thought Neil’s father was the vitamin manufacturer who makes the magic Calmag gunk and the niacin hyperdose pills and so on.

        • Eclipse-girl

          Yes, Neil’s mom and dad did start a “Vitamin Co” and made lots of money with it. I also read that Dad Gaiman was kicked out for misuse of funds. (No one has kicked out Davey for that crime.) I am just being nosey and asking for verifiable info.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          There are many links on this Wiki page about David Gaiman. Operation Snow White was just one highlight of his illustrious resume.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gaiman

    • aquaclara

      Hi, Chuck! It was quiet without you around here much this week! We missed you!

    • GlibWog

      I absolutely in love with Jamie DeWolf.. I could listen to his voice all day. You want truth? You listen to LRH Great Grandson. He’ll give you the truth.

  • nottrue

    Its great that Neils family is so rich they can keep pumping big bucks into the cult and buy their way out of disconnection. Just fucking great

  • Mary_McConnell

    I love this article! Thanks for the inspiration.

  • richelieu jr

    Anyone know if the Seymore segment is visible anywhere in the more civilized climes of Western Europe?

  • dbloch7986

    Scientology kids may sound extremely intelligent. The thing that people forget is that you have to forfeit your entire childhood to gain that semblance of intelligence.

    • Cheryl

      It’s a very narrow knowledge as their ‘education’ is very prescriptive.

      • Eclipse-girl

        was writing response to cheryl who I thought was responding to me and not Dbloch.

        Should pay more attention to times responses are written and WHO they are written to.

        • Cheryl

          It’s the way the messages are displayed that causes the confusion and I definitely was referring to kids educated under the auspices of Scientology not mainstream education.

    • Eclipse-girl

      I would suggest that NG came off as intelligent because he wasn’t educated in $cilon schools. His parents sued to keep him in good British schools

    • Observer

      Excellent choice of words–it is a semblance, nothing more. The longer they’re in, the more their actual intelligence is stunted and warped by being forced into Elron’s inferior mold.

  • TonyOrtega

    The Today Tonight show with Bryan’s segment starts Monday at 6:30 PM Sydney time, and will likely be the last segment on, near 7 PM. So we’ll put up our story at that point, which is: London 10 AM, New York 5 AM, Los Angeles 2 AM.

    • WildaBeast

      Five in the morning, are you even kidding me…I am seriously considering setting an alarm, mind you. :-)

    • Nevermore

      They have a FB page, so they might put something up on it: https://www.facebook.com/TodayTonight

    • dbloch7986

      Cool, so maybe you’ll get to see me drunk tweeting. Either that or I might be late to the party because I’ll be in Joshua Tree National Park looking at the start and going exterior to visit the Marcab Confederacy

      • Robert Eckert

        I am intensely jealous, would love to hiking in Joshua Tree this weekend. I was in the Adirondacks last weekend though.

        • Eclipse-girl

          The Adirondacks are wonderful. I grew up in upstate NY. I love the finger lakes region as well.

          • Robert Eckert

            We canoed Bog River (alias Low’s Lake above the dams). We saw an eagle and an egret and some really big duck (merganser maybe?) and heard coyotes (but did not see them close, which was fine by us) and poked at a giant floating bog (thick enough that it had trees growing from the middle, but though one of my buddies wanted to walk on it, the edges really would not bear weight).

            • Eclipse-girl

              Sounds like a lot of messy fun. Good thing no one tried to walk it. I always thought bogs could trap you in a way similar to quick sand.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Lake George?

        • dbloch7986

          I LOVE Joshua Tree, not so much because of the scenery, but because of the sky. I love how dark it is. Last time I messed up and forgot to check the moon phase. New moon is on Tuesday, so it should be dark enough to see more stars this weekend

          • Eclipse-girl

            Jealous. The best night sky I have ever seen was in 1993, while on an island in the middle of Lake Titicaca.

          • Studious Judious

            Jealous as well.

          • Robert Eckert

            Find the Summer Triangle Altair/Deneb/Vega. Along the line from Altair to Deneb, about where the perpendicular from Vega would intersect that base of the triangle, is a 5th magnitude star (at least it was last week when I managed to make it out), with the little constellation Sagitta (a line of stars, the two brightest being the “tail feathers” off to each side of the main line) pointing at it. That star is not supposed to be there: it was 17th magnitude until a few weeks ago. The formal name is Nova Delphini 2013, and nobody can know in advance how long it will stay bright.

      • q-bird

        Ah nothing like a starry sky in the desert ~ yea for you dbloch!

        • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

          Niiiiiiice picture. I’m in the process of getting a brand spanky new camera to take awesome nature shots like that.

          • q-bird

            hey there sweetie – here’s is another one for you then my friend ~

            I am fortunate to have a goodly number of friends who are splendid photographers.

            One little gal I know, 1st a professional photographer and now then a professor of photography at the U of M ( @Duluth, MN) 2 years ago, she invested in a brand-spankin’ new camera – 5 grand it cost.

            And worth every cent she says.
            The camera quality is key. The wrench is every bit as important as the mechanic’s eye view.

            • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

              I’m organising a new digital SLR as we speak to take some shots around the area I live in. Very nice spots, especially around sunset

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        That is awesome Derek. It is the one thing I miss the most about my childhood in the high desert.
        I slept outside more than I did inside and I used to adore staring at those stars.
        I think that is the one thing that made me more curious that all other things combined.
        And Q, that is a fantastic picture.

    • aquaclara

      You are so lucky we are this loyal. Are you sure you want us posting on NO CAFFEINE???
      Thank heavens for the UK’ers and the Aussie/Kiwi connections, who are going to have to keep the early 5 am/2 am’ers quite awake. :)

      • marti

        aquaclara ,You can do it:

        Just get up.
        Get out of bed.
        Drag a comb across your head.
        Go downstairs.
        Gosh. Drink a cup.
        Don’t look up.
        Cause you won’t be late.
        Get on line to Tony..
        Ahh, ahh, ahhhh.
        US of A Coffee Klatch.

        It’ll be alright Ma’am.

        • aquaclara

          Thankee, thankee….up is not quite as hard as awake, and it would be so hard to miss this big event! Coffee will be ready!

          • marti

            Onward and Forward Y’all – Coffee Klatch at aquaclara’s!
            5 a.m. Monday. EST
            BTN will bring the real drinks.

            now, what’s that address?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Huh? I got a job!
              On it!

          • Sherbet

            I’m better off staying up all night than attempting to get up for a 5 am call.

    • Free Minds, Free Hearts

      Okay Tony, thanks for the marching orders for Labor Day!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Whew! All these heated holy debates! After reading and pondering on each and every one, I’ve decided the only way to cool off from today’s thread is to throw down my carrot juice, tear off my bitter frock, and join

    “The Holy Order of the Bunny Waders”. (or, I might just get the laundry done, and clean the spa).

    http://i42.tinypic.com/14lapx.jpg

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Now there’s something we can all get behind!

    • Captain Howdy

      Due to a bunch of really good comments I am thoroughly uncertain on where I stand on the “good Neil bad Neil” debate.

      I suggest we saw him in half.

      • marti

        Get Penn & Teller. They’re cut ups.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Ahhh. I knew if I let it alone someone would fix it all up in a neat litte box. And Wahlah! A magician’s box, no less! I’m all in. It’s the only fair thing to do. Thank you, Cap’n.

        • Captain Howdy

          No, no, no…. I want to be King for a Day.

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            kay. I hereby dub thee “King of the Clones”. Have fun! Wait! what have I done?

            http://i41.tinypic.com/25iq2jr.jpg

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Wait a sec. In Florida, it is Much more fun to be Captain for the Day rather than King…

              http://i42.tinypic.com/15e7ee0.jpg

            • Captain Howdy

              OK, you changed my mind.

            • marti

              Mr. Incorrigible

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Your mind? :D

            • sugarplumfairy

              Jennifer Connelly better watch her stem cells..

          • marti

            Oh Lord! (Not Marjorie Lord- Mother of Anne Archer).
            Sorry THDNE. didn’t mean to get in your way.

      • sugarplumfairy

        I say clone him.. It’s not as messy..

        • marti

          And you know this how? /:}

          • sugarplumfairy

            guess, feeling, idea, notion, supposition, conjecture, suspicion, speculation.. the usual..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Don’t let her fool ‘ya, marti. There’s a Reason we give Sugar wide berth and solemn respect around the Bunk. Yes, we love the rabbits in the Cornfield. That’s a very good place for the rabbits. Sugar is the bestest fairy of them all. Yes sir.

            • marti

              guess, feeling, idea, notion, supposition, conjecture, suspicion, speculation..
              Yes. Real human feelings. That is why we are here…mirite

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              And she has a mean whack if you cross her!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          good idea.

    • Jeb Burton

      Wanted to apologize for the heated rhetoric yesterday. Thank you for you work with veterans. Sill dont think they should be compared to scions though.

      • marti

        You misspelled still.
        (Robert Eckert started the misspelling epidemic) /:}

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Thanks. and I still say I wasn’t comparing vets to scions…at all and I never ever would But I understand why you got riled And mistook what I said. I am very protective like that too. And I have many times got riled at the wrong time for the wrong reason at the wrong person. It happens. It’s why I wear a helmet when I read and post at the Bunker. It’s all good.

  • richelieu jr

    I’m currently reading “Let’s Sell Them a Piece of Blue Sky” (the new edition, thanks Jon!) and it is really wonderful.. At one point he mentions Hubbard having recorded 3000 hours of audio, and then the footnotes say there may be much more. He says no one has heard it all… You gotta wonder what gems are hidden away in there somewhere int he ones they don’t play so much anymore…

    Given the number of racist gaffes, obvious, provable lies and off the cuff lunacy that made the cut… Can’t we pay someone to sit through it all (I am NOT volunteering!)

    • Eclipse-girl

      Isn’t that what MIchael Doven , the Co$ guy who spied on TC , got some award for doing? His brain is mush.

      • Mark

        Sorry to repost this so soon:

        • marti

          No need to apologize Mark.
          I wonder what completing the entire Golden Age of Knowledge Courses line up has actually done for him besides receiving an award. Seriously.

          • Mark

            Aged him. Badly.

            • Eclipse-girl

              Turned whatever mind he started with into mush.

        • Robert Eckert

          You mis-spelled Ouagadougou

          • Mark

            Not me! Must have been the unpaid interns doing the subbing at Ooze & Schmooze.

          • marti

            What post did he misspell Ouagadougou? Allegedly.

      • marti

        Doven completed the entire Golden Age of Knowledge Courses line up.
        Doven advised,
        “This line up consists of 1500 LRH lectures.
        It’s several thousand pages of references.
        Several thousand essays.
        Several hundred clay demos.
        It’s made up of the greatest body of work on research on the mind, the spirit, and life in the history of earth.
        It spans 14 years from 1948 through 1962 and comprises nearly 90 individual courses with sec sheets for every book and lecture on the materials chart.
        It is all the data prior to and is the foundation of the St Hill Special

        • Eclipse-girl

          Can you imagine having to listen to all that crap for 5 – 7 hrs a day?

          He actually thinks he learned history, science, etc from Loon.

          I stand by my original statement. His brain is mush.

          • marti

            “Can you imagine having to listen to all that crap for 5 – 7 hrs a day?”

            Really.
            Now, if he is the 1st public to do this you would think DM would have presented the award.

        • 0tessa

          He must be the most brainwashed Scientologist on earth after that.

          • marti

            Or Teegeack.

          • marti

            Yes.

      • richelieu jr

        He listened to hundreds not thousands of hours.. And only approved stuff…
        And obviously he didn’t understand anything, because he’s still in the cult… So yeah… mush for brains for sure…

        • Eclipse-girl

          He bragged about being taught history by hubbard as hubbard (in a past life) had been there. I am sorry but that is batshit crazy talk.

    • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

      I’ll do it for half a billion.
      No more, no less.

  • Krew13

    A day in the life of Her Royal Governor, Nancy Cartwright:

    7am – Woke up. My husband and I stared at a framed photo of LRH for 10 minutes in awed silence, followed by applauding for 5 minutes straight.

    7.15am – Had shower and breakfast, following strict COS guidelines on what to eat.

    8am – Arrived at Fox recording studios. Handed out flyers for the COS on my way in.

    8.30am – First recording session.

    10.30am – First break. During break, I went online and made a $800 donation to my local Org.

    11am – Second recording session.

    1.30pm – Lunch. My COS handler came into Fox to bring me my specially prepared lunch, which cost $22. Also during lunch, I went online and made a further donation of $1000 to various other Orgs.

    3pm – Final recording session.

    5pm – Finished work for the day. Before leaving Fox, I went online and donated $500 for a new COS building. I also purchased tickets for an upcoming event at $50 each.

    7pm – Dinner at my local Org for $70. Had a great evening with fellow Scientologists. I provided my COS handler with a full diary of what I’d done during the day, complete with video footage to prove my diary was accurate.

    10pm – Returned home and went online with my husband and we both made donations of $2000 each for various COS projects.

    11pm – Brushed teeth. Stood in front of framed photo of LRH for 10 minutes with my husband, followed by 5 minutes of applause.

    I’m so proud to be a Scientologist. I think tomorrow I’ll donate $5000.

    • Jvm3

      You seem to have a real hard-on for Nancy Cartwright today. Did she spit in your coffee this morning?

      • marti

        “Did she spit in your coffee this morning?”

        No.
        It wasn’t on the schedule.

        • Jvm3

          Oh you’re right. I could’ve just checked instead of asking.

          • marti

            Correction, your reply should read, “I could’ve just sec checked instead of asking.” /:}

  • Unit G-Xenu’s Other Fist

    I go away for a couple days, and you spring a TV thingie on me to watch on Monday.

    Awright, I’ll watch just because it’s you, Tony.
    Usually I refuse to even put a TV channel on. The TV I have is reserved for PS3 only :-P
    That’s how dedicated I am ;-)

  • media_lush
    • Mark

      Bloooaaargghhhhh! (quick pass another one, this is full).

    • media_lush
      • Mark

        Ahhh – just like a dose of Chlorodyne… the relief…

        • Robert Eckert

          Simple oil of cloves…

      • Captain Howdy

        I’m sure Ellen will do a thoroughly thought provoking and revealing interview……..I got twenty that says the word scientology doesn’t even get uttered.

        • Sandy

          Ellen’s show is not about controversy. It’s about feel good. That is what she does. And she does it well.

          • Captain Howdy

            Admit it, you just like it for the hunky guys taking their shirts off.

            Just watching the ads for the show make me wanna… http://youtu.be/hkmgDvjgkv4

            • Sandy

              :o)

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          damn. I was hoping Tony would get the first. Yeah, you’re right, Cap’n. It will be about her dancing competition technique.

          • Mark

            If he’s got any sense, Tony’s asleep, in readiness for the morning’s excitements.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I’m thinking Tony never sleeps. Either his cats do his sleeping or his typing. It has to be one or the other …. or Both!

              http://i43.tinypic.com/2w4gr4i.jpg

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              This pic makes me miss my kitty. She was always jealous of the compy and used to love to get between me and that darn screen.
              She was also preternaturally good at Tetris!!!

            • marti

              That is one BIG cat. or it’s ONE SMALL keyboard.
              My cat is BIGGER.

            • Aslansown

              I think they do his typing while he rests up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQE8obUJ1U4

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I Knew it!

            • Aslansown

              That’s tomorrow’s blog post he’s typing.

            • Nevermore

              OMG, that cat is the double of one of my boys – who also lies on the keyboard or mouse if he feels he’s being ignored!

            • TonyOrtega

              Sleep? I’m on my second margarita, and I still have a story to write tonight! And that’s after a huge day on the book! And the cats are so manic we had a broken wine bottle in the bunker today. Bad kitty!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              You Rock….Please wear flip flops while trying to clean up the broken wine bottle mess.
              Margarita? EWWWWHHH!!!

            • Zer0

              The key to a good margarita is great tequila. The other key is fresh squeezed limes. The former is easy. The latter is very time consuming.

            • Aslansown

              I think your kitty was upset because he wanted a margarita and not the wine you gave him!

            • EnthralledObserver

              We can’t afford to have you sleeping anyway… write, man, write! *cracks whip*

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      He’s still a teenager, with a boatload of cash, and shiny play things. I listened to his latest song, and whoever is managing him and whoever is coaching him needs to be fired. Connor can afford to learn from the best IF he is really interested in music as opposed to applause and or hot babes. He has Not progressed, possibly digressed, in the songster department. Also, he’s playing Montana for christ sakes! And if I had a shiny old jet to fly my friends around I’d be bragging with pictures too.

      Now…if I hear about any burlwood on his jet, I’m a gonna have to talk sternly about that young man.

  • Jessica Jones

    I’m sorry but having a story aired by Today Tonight is not a good thing. The show is a joke and it’s an insult to journalism.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      This is your first post.
      It smells bad.
      So STFU.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        There you are. I was just bumming because I figured you must be having loads of fun and I’m not. Did JJ just diss our hunky Bryan Seymour? We can’t have that, now can we?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          I took time off my regular job to catch up on my second job. I am so tired now.
          But yes, JJ went there! I smell something faintly oily coming from JJ’s direction?
          Anyhow…You home next weekend? Estelle (Whingey Bingey/Purple Rain) is trying to come down for the weekend. (Denise is leaving her alone and Un-supervised…Yikes)
          I figured we would go cruise Sciontisneyland and maybe stop by? You game?
          (besides, Mr. Nuts is driving me crazy about his cooler lid)!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            i’m always the last to know stuff! we will talk.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Hey, I just found out today. That girl is spontaneous!

              Edit: and no prep work Heloise! This would just be a little visit. (yeah, I know how you are)

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              can’t wait…We Shall Rock the weekend. (like I’m not hobbling right now like an old fart…ha).

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Ditto!!!

          • sugarplumfairy

            jessica seems to be a name much favored by co$ trolls..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              BAAHAAHAA. Well hey…. Isn’t Louanne in the hole????????????

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Isn’t Everybody in the Hole by now?

            • Jvm3

              They let her out the day Leah Remini filed the missing persons to do twitter “handling”. Must’ve gone back in because her acct has been quiet since.

          • tetloj

            Whingey Bingey is Purple Rain?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Yep. Surprise!!!!

              Edit: I had NO idea. I only peruse WWP AND ESMB PERIPHERIALLY.
              I was so shocked when I walked into Pook’s house and we met.
              EPIC.
              I had a lot of awesome moments that weekend…but THAT was the kicker.
              Followed closely by Kyle Brennan’s beautiful Mom whom I adore.

            • EnthralledObserver

              I thought Whingey was Aussie? Did I think wrongly?

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Why thank you for coming here to inform us of this. And you would be…?

    • Zer0

      Don’t you mean it was created by Merchants of Chaos? lol

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Just out of curiosity… Are you concerned because the show is tabloidish, or because the story will not be taken seriously, or because you don’t like stories critical of Scientology? Or is there some other reason?

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      What do you think about Seymour? He’s liked a lot around here Because of his journalistic integrity and keeping it real. I actually don’t watch the show, not being from Australia. Since it’s your first post, it’s going to stir up a few hornets without a little more explanation…just coming out of the blue like that. I loathe tabloid shows myself. So you have our attention…can you tell us a little bit more?

    • sugarplumfairy

      Apparently, Australia disagrees with you since its the number one current affairs program over there.. Just THINK how many people are going to see it, Jessica..

    • Captain Howdy

      $cientology is an insult to religion.

      You went to the bother of opening an account just to post that one theetie-weetie comment and run away like a plucked chicken?

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Heh heh. Theetie-weetie.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Damnation. Again with the Fightin’ Words? I told you all about that theetie weetiie insult worse than SP. Once again, I must throw down the gloves and challenge you to a duel to honor the reputation of our Cap’n, Oh Cap’n Howdy. Well, he’s worth it, but on a Friday night? Really?

          http://youtu.be/1tqxzWdKKu8

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            No, no, no. I was chuckling over the good Cap’s use of “theetie-weetie” to describe our Little Visitor.

      • Andrew Robertson

        Hardly surprising. Scientologists can neither communicate nor confront. But they are good at lying and making up catchy nom de plumes!

        Andrew

        • Captain Howdy

          Howdy Andrew! Are you still rocking and a reeling in Auckland New Zealand? Sorry. it’s the title of a Cramps album and I couldn’t resist.

          • Andrew Robertson

            I’m living in a slightly more earthquake prone part of the country where rocking and reeling has a more troubled meaning.

            But the aftershocks are insignificant at present. (Crosses fingers):

            http://geonet.org.nz/quakes/region/wellington/felt

            Andrew

            • Zer0

              I’m from the the midwest, USA. I’ll never forget a family dinner, with a dear aunt visiting from California. The table started jiggling, and my mother told me to stop kicking the table. My aunt from CA calmly said, “don’t worry, it’s just an earthquake.” We all thought she was nuts. But it was true, as verified in the news the next day. Do you, Andrew, really get used to earthquakes?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Understand. Same here. Mild but continuous earthquakes. those suckers are annoying!
              I remember laying in bed one night and we had a goodie.
              I swear I thought I had a stalker under my bed…was totally afraid to move…come to find out it was a stupid tremor!!!!

            • Zer0

              Even the most minor earthquake makes me leap out of bed in my sleep! The last one, a few years ago had me half naked running out my front door before I was even awake! Once again, the news broadcasts confirmed I wasn’t crazy:)

            • Jvm3

              Hey! I live in The Midwest, USA, too. Small world.

            • Captain Howdy

              I grew up in S.F and you get used to earthquakes the same way you get use to hurricanes and tornadoes, I imagine.

            • Andrew Robertson

              With over 15,000 earthquakes recorded here every year, it’s not a country for the pusillanimous and one becomes, if not sanguine about survival, at least fatalistic.

              At the Te Papa Museum there’s an earthquake simulator which is a ‘must visit’ for tourists from geologically stable areas who have never felt the excitement of a good shake!

              Andrew

            • Zer0

              Kia ora, Andrew!

            • Captain Howdy

              Hang in there oh Great and Wise One and don’t forget to take some neighborly advice if necessary.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

            • sugarplumfairy

              Thinking about you, Andrew..

  • Bury_The_Nuts

    About the topic at hand. I must say. I like Neil Gaiman’s last book a lot.
    I am torn on his responsibility.
    He seems to walk a fine line in ways that most have not been able to pull off.
    That is IT. I have been nice TWICE this week.
    Do not expect a REPEAT!!!!

    • Douglas D. Douglas

      Doesn’t it feel GOOD to be good?

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Not really so much :)

  • Sherbet

    Somebody may have already posted this. The other day we were discussing whether TC has seen his daughter. Apparently she has. From People: “Guess she has more than a little of her dad Tom Cruise’s daredevil spirit – PEOPLE confirms that Suri Cruise has broken her arm…Suri has been living in N.Y.C. with Holmes since her parents divorced in 2012, but was reunited with her dad at the beginning of August when she visited him in the U.K.”

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Need proof. No Pics? Don’t buy it.

      Edit: I broke my arm at that age. On my bike.

      • Sherbet

        Should I be sulking at that remark?

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          No…I should.
          U DA Queen!!!

          • Sherbet

            Anyway, if “People” isn’t proof enough, then I don’t know what is. Oh. Sarcasm brackets. {}. There ya go.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Sycophants!!!

            • Sherbet

              TC’s personal fan club.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      I broke my favorite lamp, was reunited with my former yard man, and revisited with an old leg cramp issue. I just wanted you to get the scoop, Sherb, because my manager insists no People interviews this month. :D

      • Sherbet

        You think Media_Lush has all the scoops??

        • media_lush

          People magazine is pretty much Cruises’s PR bitch.

          TMZ is owned by the same people who own People – hence the extremely long time before they printed the Leah Remini story.

          I must admit that I am intrigued why we have no pics of Suri with Tommy Girl for over a year now even though she’s supposed to have been over top the UK twice…. as I said yesterday; a pap shot of him and Suri in the UK would be a big earner and someone in the hotel would surely have tipped one off…. but no…. the other commentator was saying that her sources said that Suri WAS in the UK but stayed in the hotel only…. hmmm, I find that weird indeed. Given that the court case where In Touch Magazine said he “abandoned” Suri you’d think he would make sure some pap shots were made available to strengthen…. actually pretty much win the case. The Disconnection angle was put forward…. i.e. don’t piss off the drones but I don’t buy it as that would become moot in the court case [if it actually goes forward]. Also who keeps his kid secretly hidden in a hotel room …. twice?

          Something very strange is going on here.

          • Sherbet

            When you mentioned it earlier, ‘lush, it didn’t make a impression on me, but now that I think of it, you may be on to something. Maybe, maybe TC has developed the scruples not to parade Suri around as the latest “Good Dad!” badge. But the paparazzi have no such scruples. If the girl had been seen outside, they’d be on her like the rats that they are. On the other hand (is this the third hand?), why would TC be complicit in a blatant lie that Suri visited him? The divorce gossip frenzy has faded, so TC doesn’t need such a prop as Suri. I don’t get it, either.

      • sugarplumfairy

        Get some B complex and take one a day.. It’s great for leg cramps and works almost immediately..

  • TonyOrtega

    To our American readers: We hope you have a great Labor Day weekend. But this is turning into a HUGE weekend for stories. Put on the sunscreen, but please join us for an amazing lineup of three big stories — and maybe more! The weekend is young, and we’re still getting tips!

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Will YOU please provide some god damn METH or something.
      Or at least some Blue Mountain Coffee

      • monkeyknickers

        Pregnant women need wake-y things too Bury!!

        Anthony: please provide a community cattle prod for those of us who . . . uh . . . . need one. Thx!

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Hey, I used to work at a feed store. I don’t have a prod…but you would be surprised what I can do with a couple of Nine volts!

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Monkey….I’ve seen her with her clam shucker devices. She’s wild, she’s wooly, and she’s wakey!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              And even when she bleeds she keeps on schuckin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • monkeyknickers

            PLEASE MARRY ME.
            JUST ON THE INTERNET IS FINE.

            :)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Ok, we can have a same sex pseudo marriage here on the Interwebs!
              But the least you could do is send me a CD!!!!~

            • monkeyknickers

              I’d love to !! You might not like my stuff tho Bury . . . . I work primarily in the christian rock genre.

              How can I do so without publicly divulging your real life location?

            • Casabeca

              I know our wedding plans fell thru, but am happy for you and Bury! And if you decde to share any music, email my username at gmail! Thrilled, I would be! I used to sing in a CCM band, not that good, lol.

            • monkeyknickers

              You thwarted me Casa! Out there in your desert hideaway . . . . .hmph.

              CCM . . . . . ? Is this one of those things I should know but don’t? There are ever so many. :)

            • Casabeca

              Contemporary Christian Music…could’nt tell if you were teasing Bury about your musical output, so I am confessing straight up that I did this on my block for years ;). And if you really would never get near it, just say you will still be my friend and I promise not to sing any News Day or Switchfoot at you and the babes ;)!

            • Casabeca

              PS How did you know I just got home from Oregon? Your spies are everywhere!

    • Sherbet

      You are such a blog tease.

      • monkeyknickers

        He’s a blog-blocker.

        :))

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          Is he related to Dan?

          http://i42.tinypic.com/50jvaa.jpg

          • Sherbet

            That pic was taken when he found out about OT III for the first time.

            • Captain Howdy

              Nah, don’t worry, Little Joe was the religious nut.

            • marti

              Moss is the Scion. Secretary-turned-copywriter on the Ponderosa.

    • Jvm3

      Labor Day was actually created for the sole purpose of having another day off work. True story. Hoping everyone here has a good one.

      • Sherbet

        Thanks, Jvm3. Same to you. But I think most of us will be “working” the keyboards here in the Bunker.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        So like, hence the name “labor day”
        genius!!!
        Sorry Jvm3…I have been on my best behavior and I just lost my Shiz.
        please forgive.

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          why do I get this feeling that some dianetic volcano is going to erupt on some island any minute?

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Too late, the DC8′s are already in flight…………..

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I thought I felt the earth move…MacDill is hopping

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              That just gave me a big old belly laugh!!!!

        • Jvm3

          Sorry I hope you find your shiz soon. But yeah, Labor Day was essentially created to give the labor force a day off because they deserved one.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Damn it…..I been lookin for my shiz and I can’t find it!
            DRATS!

            • Jvm3

              Check the last place you can remember having your shiz..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I can’t. It has been banned for mining since then!

            • Jvm3

              I lost you there. You have lost shiz and I have lost you.. Banned for mining?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh just ignore me. I get way too estoteric sometimes…

            • marti

              it’s in the Book of Mormon, Wiki.

    • TheHoleDoesNotExist

      Just when you thought you were getting away for the long weekend, scott free… tooling down the highway, not a care in the world. Then, you hear this dark voice from the back seat…”To our American readers:…” And just like That, you know you Must Go Back….you Must.

      http://i43.tinypic.com/5e6g0h.jpg

      • marti

        ~~~Marion, ~~~turn around now.
        Martin Balsam.
        Hey, do not go up those stairs. Just don’t.
        And do not get mad man.
        I’ll Talia what.
        Take the least Patton of least resistance.
        Let no Moss gather no stone.
        And you can then take Pelham 123.
        Dig it?

        • TheHoleDoesNotExist

          hah! that about covers it!

      • GlibWog

        hahahhahahaha.. I love this Hole..

    • Sherbet

      Well, OK, but if Saturday morning’s story is about Suri’s broken arm, I’m going to be wicked disappointed.

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Wine up ones nose does not feel good!
        Just sayin….

        • Sherbet

          Sorry, Bury…Maybe you should be drinking Vicks Vapo Rub.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            I tried that already. it hurts even worse!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Sherb really needs to join us at the totally unofficial Bunker Southern SP Society … in fact, she can be president…or Queen! (just don’t tell her that Pres/Queen brings/makes the snacks)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              YES. I would LOVE to have Sherb at our “prayer circle”

            • Douglas D. Douglas

              Heck, just make it a quilting bee…

            • Sherbet

              Lots of needling for sure, DougDD.

            • Sherbet

              I hereby suggest a prayer that scientology fall on its fat face. Dominus go biscuits.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Krusty A She Laid Son. Ahhhhhhh…Men. (Insider catholic latin joke)

            • Sherbet

              Got it, Sister Hole.

            • Casabeca

              Good one!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Biscuits? Do we have bacon and an egg yolk?

            • Sherbet

              Bacon, yes, but DM has all the egg on his face.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh, if it wasn’t HIM…I would lick it off.
              I am all about the EGG!!!!

            • GlibWog

              Ewwwwwwwwwww just the thought..puke puke…
              I love EGGS love them!

            • Sherbet

              You are SO SWEET, you gals! I’m not sure you want a Yankee harshing the Southern buzz. But I accept an honorary title of Queen Bee-yatch.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Um, We are In Florida. We ARE Yankees!

            • Sherbet

              Tell that to Jefferson Davis.

            • Captain Howdy

              Don’t go Sherb, they’ll try to make you join their secret Klan group and when you refuse they’ll chop you up and take you out to the swamp and feed you to the gators.

            • Sherbet

              You think it’s secretly a coven of some sort? Nah, they SEEM like such nice women…

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              u be Jelly!!!
              Come join us Capt!
              you know u wanna!!!
              We are cute AND cool!

            • Captain Howdy

              My wife’s cousin lives in Miami beach and she’s always haranguing me to come visit her or move there. Boston is bad enough and I don’t wanna add insult to injury with what time I have left ; )

              http://youtu.be/FF2OcPYzvf8

            • Sherbet

              What’s this “time left” business?? You signed up for the Bunker for a billion years, just like that Other organization. You’re staying here, mister, you’re staying.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh fuck that shit. and we are so fucking far from Miami!
              Thank whomever!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I’d say this could be your Native State (a little insider scientology pun, pardone).

              http://i44.tinypic.com/j9ooqh.png

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Sigh. You Forced me to leak a picture of our Real meetings and what happens..

              http://i41.tinypic.com/29wpzpx.jpg

            • Sherbet

              Whoa! Talk about getting a piece of tail…

            • Captain Howdy

              Hah! This is the more like it.

            • Sherbet

              Howdy’s in, pending a good look at the eyebrows.

            • Sherbet

              That Thomas Kinkade sure had a dark side.

            • marti

              The Ethel Mermaid lift.

            • marti

              “There’s No Business Like Show Business.”

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist
            • marti

              Ha. Ethel Merman and the Muppets.Thank you Jim Henson.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              hahahahaha. Yankees harsh? Bury, over to you.

      • tetloj

        I’m sure there’s an arm-twisting reg joke in there somewhere

    • tetloj

      It’s a cold rainy weekend here. Imma ready to bunker down.

      • TheHoleDoesNotExist

        Alaska? Siberia?

        • tetloj

          Southern hemisphere…last day of winter

          • Douglas D. Douglas

            You’re a hobbit?

            • tetloj

              Bunyip

            • Robert Eckert

              “Bunyip” for those in the Northern Hemisphere was the most gigantic of the marsupials of Australia, genus Diprotodon, which went extinct some time ago but lived on in the folklore of the aboriginals, whose pictures and descriptions of it naturally took on numerous variations (and the white men assumed it was some mythical creature until the fossils were discovered).

    • Zer0

      Everyone make sure to kick in a donation for all of Tony’s holiday work. Thanks, Tony!

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        Thanks for the reminder!

        • Sandy

          Yeah! Done…..

      • marti

        My Octobrt MRC is coming up.

        • Zer0

          What’s that, friend?

          • marti

            monthly recurring charge

    • Aslansown
      • Sherbet

        HAHAHAHA! Perfect, Aslansown.

        • Aslansown

          I couldn’t resist!

          • Sherbet

            Well, you could have, but I’m glad you didn’t!

            • Aslansown

              I don’t have much willpower!

    • tetloj

      The Official Bunker 2013 Labor Day Weekend Enturbulation Extravaganza Cheer squad

      *o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*o/*

      • Zer0

        WOOT!

    • GlibWog

      Well.. Bring ‘em on Baby.. We are all young too! ( Cough) .. You are working hard Mr. Ortega! Woo Hoo..

    • EnthralledObserver

      It’s Father’s Day here in Australia on Sunday, but I’ll be sure to keep popping in for the latest… even though you weren’t talking to me. :D

      • Robert Eckert

        Who’s your daddy? Tony’s your daddy!

    • Nevermore

      Just an ordinary weekend in the UK (though I have a big football match to watch tomorrow!), so we’ll be here…

  • Douglas D. Douglas

    Apropos of nothing in particular, I just made and served up a killer shepherd’s pie for the fam. I am enjoying a nice big portion with an ice-cold glass of milk. So life is good, for now at least.

    • Bury_The_Nuts

      Yum. Shepherds pie and……………um, MILK?
      WTF?
      DDD, you are one Unique individual!!!!

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        I seldom drink milk with meals, but this one just seemed to call for it. That whole comfort food thang…

        • marti

          I usually drink above 3.2% milk.

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Ditto…I dont drink Milk unless it is MILK

            • Sidney18511

              In the Sidney home it is an illegle act to eat chocolate cake or cookies without a big glass of cold milk.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              But that is a totally different argument!

              Edit; My dad used to call skim milk “Blue john”.
              Not sure why, but you could see through it.

              Anyway..That was not considered REAL milk at my house.

            • Robert Eckert

              If you give a mouse a cookie, he will want a glass of milk.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyk55GYnGl0

      • marti

        Yep, That’s what I was thinkin.
        Milk?

    • Zer0

      Sheperd’s pie, my weekly school lunch. Are you in the UK?

      • marti

        Hi Zero.

        • Zer0

          What’s with the “Hi Zero” thing, you guys just being polite, or am I being paranoid, or both, or neither:)

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            Nope…Don’t get excited.
            Maybe they mean High Zer0

            • Zer0

              No, you guys are awesome kind and very cool. It’s all fine!

          • marti

            You weathered the, “make me a sammich,” nonsense.

            • Zer0

              Yeah, that sammich thing was only remotely irritating:)

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Yeah…Tell me and about a million other wives about it.

              http://i44.tinypic.com/2l9046b.jpg

            • marti

              It was so irritating, it could have created a pearl.

            • Zer0

              lol, really, lol

            • marti

              Take care.

          • marti

            Being polite fella and just saying hello.

      • Douglas D. Douglas

        Nope.

        Hi Zero.

    • WhereIsSHE

      So.. you’re Kosher than, eh??;)~

      May I recommend you take a MONTH of of anti-artegy-clogging fruits and veg in the next DAY?!

  • TheHoleDoesNotExist

    Before I sign off, just wondering what we did with Neil’s carcass? Ice or Ashes?

    • WhereIsSHE

      LOL! I missed the ice vs. ashes debate??!

      • Bury_The_Nuts

        i am going with ICE.

        • WhereIsSHE

          See.. i was going to go with ASHES (for a truly UGLY, SADISTIC image) at first…
          But… I will gladly join BTN with ICE;)

          • Bury_The_Nuts

            WIS! I must confess.
            I am so MAD at you. You did a disappearing act for quite some time. i missed you so much ( even being a meat eating, hog killing conservative).
            I am so glad You are back!!! Even if I still eat KFC!!!

            • WhereIsSHE

              I ADORE you for being MAD at me=)
              As my grandfather used to say, “EAT! EAT!!! Don’t be afraid!!”

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Glad you are here. My grandfather sucked chicken bones dry. He said it was because of “the Depression”. As a little kid, it Depressed me to see him eat like that. True fax.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh my gosh those poor depression era folks… they would eat anything. I remember my dad getting super SICK on bananas.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              nanas? really?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Seriously. I guess they gave them bananas in those lines for food. My dad ate so many as a kid, he got sick and said he could not eat them for like forty years.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Apples and Peanut butter. Lunch every single day throughout grade school for me. Can’t touch the stuff.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              My mom made pancakes with Peanut butter for my dad every day.
              To this day, cant eat it….but can smell it and love it

            • Jvm3

              That might change my life forever. Such a simple idea and yet so ingenious. I’m making some this week

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh they totally rock… the first thirty times!!!!!

              edit; add honey, mollasses or whatever ya like

            • Jvm3

              I’ve never heard of that but I guess it’s a common thing? I’m gonna try it with Nutella too.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Enjoy. You will be surprised at how yummy it will be.

            • Jvm3

              A whole new world of pancakes has just opened up for me

            • Captain Howdy

              Try it ..you’ll like it

              We’ll bill you later.

            • Jvm3

              I’m not totally new to fine dining with peanut butter. I’ve had it spread on top of waffles before. But to mix it into the batter is a whole new ball game.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              BNB and Honey.
              BNB and Mollasses.

              Just trust me!!!!!!!!!!!

            • Jvm3

              Never really kept molasses in the house. Brown sugar tho. Sorta the same deal right?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              NO! different animal. love them both but the flavors are totally different.
              do not try to sub. You will be dssapointed in the results!

            • Jvm3

              I didn’t know they came from animals. Wtf

            • Captain Howdy

              Nix on the mix. I meant on top. Mixing it is just wrong.

            • Jvm3

              Hmm.. Why not? Will it burn too quickly or not bind right?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Huh…NO NO Grasshopper!!!

            • Jvm3

              That’s what I was planning. Extra creamy JIF whipped into the batter. It sounded like a home run.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Um,OK!

            • Candygram

              Waffle sandwiches are also good. ( vegan for this household …)

            • Captain Howdy

              I put peanut butter on my toast, pancakes and waffles. It’s a must.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              It is an unknown phenomenon thingy!!!

            • WhereIsSHE

              My father made no bones about being thoroughly DISGUSTED by his mother-in-law making a meal of what he meant to discard.
              Meanwhile… she lived to be almost 90 yrs old.. and was always fit as a fiddle. Probably because she was the oldest of 14 kids (fucking 14!) and started working outside the house when she was 5. (She collected tickets at carnivals/fairs, whatever.. just to bring home a few pennies.)
              Fast forward to the present time…
              All of her great-grandchildren attend private schools where tuition is almost $30k per year (not including the cost of the full time nannies –and the extra SUVs– etc that it takes just to cart them to and fro’).

              I was really glad that the Episcopal Church explicitly denounced that amicus brief on the priest-penitent privilege issue, because 2 of my nephews attend the Episcopal Academy, and go to Chapel every other day as a result of being enrolled there.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh My God! When you break it down like that it gets so much more real.
              Good job…and sad, yet inspiring too…

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              It’s 90% in the genes. I came from a family of 13 and a zoo full of pets. I can whoop up a feast out of nothing too, though. In fact, I always have way too much leftovers when I cook to this day.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              True that!!! i attest!!!

            • WhereIsSHE

              Me too on the leftovers=(!
              Our boys used to take care of them for me after school in the afternoons, but those days are long gone.

              The good news is that my husband is a “good customer” (as my grandmother used to say about a member of the family– or a neighbor–or friend– who would never say no to a good plate of reheated, home-cooked fare).

            • WhereIsSHE

              My mother’s mother did the same thing. SHe could make a meal out of the carcass of a chicken (after my mother cooked it on the rotisserie, and my dad carved it up for the family.)
              True story.
              Our generation absorbed some great values as a result of the Depression.
              The next…
              NOT SO MUCH.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I once fed my touring band And a crew of a light man and a sound man on spaghetti I made in a friggin’ crock pot in our hotel room while outside the parking lot was a frozen skating rink and I remembered thinking about my Depression era grandparents. It inspired me that night to get a fuckin new manager!

            • Captain Howdy

              My dad grew up dirt poor during the depression and he would eat a jar of pig’s knuckles in one sitting as well as all kinds of other ungodly shit.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Oh geez. And you know those jars of pig’s knuckles that Didn’t get eaten 50 years ago? They are Still in bars today! I’ve been hungry before, and eaten rice and beans, but never…That hungry.

            • Captain Howdy

              Beef shanks, ham-hocks, chicken gizzards, beef hearts and he owned a huge butcher store and market and he still ate this stuff because that’s what he grew up on living in a one room shack with outdoor plumbing in the Arizona desert.

              He told me he use to eat the same stuff African-Americans did because that was the cheapest stuff and the white folks didn’t want it..

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              I.Adore.Good.Gizzards.

            • Captain Howdy

              Somehow I’m not surprised.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              yeah, yeah…..

            • Captain Howdy

              I grew up eating steak every night and all I wanted was a pizza.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Oh me too! we had a freezer full of t-bone.
              I. Hate.Beef.
              Thisiswhy!!!

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist
            • Captain Howdy

              I’ll take the bottle of beer and Billie and the spoonful of what she’s got but I’ll pass on the pigs foot.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0aIjyX7vwI

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              i was close…once….

            • EnthralledObserver

              It’s just occurred clarify what kind of ‘beans’… is it the tinned kind, or green beans? I’ve assumed tinned kind, but I guess one shouldn’t assume when it comes to the cult.

            • Robert Eckert

              Red kidney beans I think.

            • EnthralledObserver

              Thanks… that was what I had imagined.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              holy shit baby. I aint afraid. I am a carnivore.

            • WhereIsSHE

              That’s only because you haven’t had a good look at what’s going on in your ARTERIES!

            • WhereIsSHE

              Call me selfish for wanting you to be alive and healthy for as FUCKING LONG AS POSSIBLE!

              EDIT: This was meant for you, BTN!!
              I should mention that my grandfather grew up on a farm in Lynchburg, Virginia.. and ate 2 soft boiled eggs EVERY DAY for breakfast for the 97 years he enjoyed.
              (And although his dad was a Rabbi… he also ate a LOT of bacon… and cheeseburgers…followed by rocky road ice cream… ;)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Thank you for caring. Now come to visit.i will feed you bean sprouts and good wine!!!~!

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              So there!~~~

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Sure I have WIS. i just happen to be one of those freaks with low cholesteral. Great Tri’s and great fucking luck. I also have no love for red meat and I actually prefer veggie meals. (most of the time).
              but i dont look NEAR as good in a cocktail dress as you do…So there ya go!!! ;)

            • Zer0

              Have you heard of the Honey Badger?

            • Jvm3

              Cornerback out of LSU? Likes his pot?

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              Sweetie, I AM the Honey Badger!

            • WhereIsSHE

              Well.. as a vegan, animal rights activist I hate to say this..
              but once you try peanut butter on your pancakes…
              you sort of have to add some ….ORGANIC, HUMANELY BRED, RAISED AND SLAUGHTERED… BACON.
              ANd next thing you know…
              you are HOOKED on HEROIN, and you entire life is down the toilet=((!
              (Yes. It’s a FACT.)

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              See, WIS..U, R, Fucked. LOL

            • Captain Howdy

              Peanut buttered pancakes and smack made what I am today.

            • Bury_The_Nuts

              come to florida…i cook u lunch :)

            • Sherbet

              My son the atheist vegan librarian will be interested to hear that, SHE.

            • EnthralledObserver

              It always amuses me to see “humanely” and “slaughtered” in the same sentence…

          • TheHoleDoesNotExist

            Well, Cap’n Howdy was going to be like Solomon and cut him in half. Sugar ever the diplomat suggested Cloning methods. But the majority of the commentors here today seemed to go for icing him with halos or burning him in ashes (my fav). Just wanted to know so I didn’t have to sleep on it. Evidently Tony will have Big Stories any minute so I need to know now.

            • Captain Howdy

              I proclaim “off with his head” for his bad britpop hair and his taste in wimin and i just love proclaiming “off with their head”.

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              Well then… you must love the “Pike on a Head” holy hubbard policy. It’s a classic!

              “The recognition as a suppressive is our hanging. When things are
              bad (bad indicators are strongly visible), it is very beneficial to hang
              a body for the gallows. We call it ‘putting a head on a pike.’ …
              ‘When the emergency situation has been cleared up, you usually have to
              put one or two heads on a pike to convince people that you meant it
              seriously.’ … ‘Ethics is the steamroller..SUPPRESSIVES! Eradicate
              them. Find the suppressive and shoot him. Peace reigns.’ ” That
              Hubster …what a guy.

              http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/

              http://i41.tinypic.com/1g5cmc….

              http://youtu.be/u0jB0KKXUcg

            • sugarplumfairy

              Uh oh.. Are we sure those metal rods in Clearwater are tent poles?

            • TheHoleDoesNotExist

              I seriously doubt it!

    • Jvm3

      It was decided that he is not the knight the Bunker deserves, nor the knight the Bunker needs right now.

  • Zer0

    I’m not a scientologist, have never been. I like Rinder’s blog, since he is fighting the corruption. I wanted to quote this post from his blog, just show the mindset of an indie:

    “These clear and well delineated essays are very helpful and
    destimulating Mike, thank you. My technical brain tends to go to
    technical analysis, and the subjects of false data and false data
    stripping have often come to mind. For me since gag began, the evidence
    of false data has been growing and compounding. I’ve probably asked
    myself 1000 times, where did this datum come from? The indicators of
    false data are RAMPANT in the RCS; something you couldn’t think with,
    something that didn’t make sense, something that didn’t add up, et al.
    Any sane person strives to understand, and especially, with the subject
    of Scn., where truth and as-isness are supposed to be important, we
    strive to correct and align with other known truths, (the axioms, the
    data series, auditing basics etc.) You can only accept the reason of
    someone found something in LRH’s closet so many times, then the point
    comes, where this excuse, is no longer acceptable. You start mind
    bending or your demise begins. When I disavowed in 2007, i felt the RCS
    was in a condition of treason, later I felt an overwhelming sense of
    growing confusion from that group. Now I feel it has sunk further down,
    lower than confusion, into a cannibalistic death spiral, where
    cognition/as-isness has been thoroughly replaced with sound bytes, catch
    phrases, punch lines, ad campaign slogans and covertly hostile
    hyperbole. The condition or state of “duplicity” has been achieved. We
    should send them a cert.”

    • Jvm3

      gag = typo for GAT? Or is that just what indies call it mockingly? Also, what is it with LRH and Scientologists obsession with the word “axiom”. They have to know it means something accepted that cannot be proven, right? I always found that strange that LRH used it so much in his texts that he wanted to have scientific credibility. Did he just think the word sounded cool and would impress people?

      • Zer0

        “axiom” is a word they cling to, perhaps to give some credibility, but clearly LRH has misused the term

        • Bury_The_Nuts

          Don’t even get me started on the ” axioms”

          • Eclipse-girl

            Being a mathematically educated person, I understand what an axiom is.

            To me, and maybe I am naive, AXIOM only has a use mathematically.

            I have issues with philosophy.

            • Captain Howdy
            • Jvm3

              These are fun. It kinda tickles when words start to pretzel your brain.

            • Eclipse-girl

              TY for the link. I couldn’t read through all of it because it is BS and too late at night to deal with the convulsions of logic. I understand that those in $cientology had to read this garbage and then regurgitate to others. I pity them.

              For me : http://www.icoachmath.com/math_dictionary/axiom.html

            • q-bird

              yup – as-is-nesses & all that mess… oh god, oh no, uh-oh, my head just exploded…
              looking at the world thru scientology’s pricy topsy-turvy viewpoint is hard work – too hard for me – that’s for sure.

            • 0tessa

              Maybe Spinoza could help here? (Combination mathematics and philosophy.)

            • Candygram

              I do think “axiom” is used in the context of logic.

            • Eclipse-girl

              AXIOM is used used in the context of logic and philosophy. It is a self evident truth, or a statement that can not be proved, and is used as the basis of a logical argument.

              With false axioms, you can prove the illogical

              http://www.thefreedictionary.com/axiom

              I claim the link that Captain Howdy provided, of not a list axioms but convulsions of logic and philosophy. I have to believe that those who were / are in Co$ and had to read that stuff had already lost their ability to think, critically for themselves.

    • noseinabk

      ^^^This is why I do not go to the MR”s blog posts. Sure Mike has some good input at times but the
      comments make me sick.

      Here I was a happy little wog, smugly thinking, “ha, we have
      no scions here in MD.” Unfortunately on one of Mikes first posts a blog
      commenter stated he was a very recently retired teacher from a local
      high school looking for a freezone auditing partner. WTF?
      How can you be a clam and teach High school courses in any subject?

      • Jvm3

        Maybe Phys Ed? Or some form of arts?

        • noseinabk

          Nope. He was a English or math teacher. I cant recall. I just remember being appalled and looking him up to make sure he would not be my kids teacher. I was kinda shocked to find a scion so close to home AND involved in the freezone shit. Previously I had only seen the connections close to DC. Being in a small town in the upper corner of MD, I thought I was home free.

          • Jvm3

            Very bizarre. To teach English you’d have to recognize LRH’s abuse of it, and to teach math you’d have to recognize that LRH had no use for it.

    • Missionary Kid

      What I’m wondering is why Mike didn’t detect all of that while he was “in.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are many people who will say that this was taking place decades before Mike left . Made-up statistics were passed up the chain of command and were accepted without question.

      Numbers have been faked for decades because even the perception of a lack of “straight up and vertical” by anyone has been punished severely. Given the Co$ penchant for organizationally approved mendacity, it’s been quite natural for clams to MSU. (Make Shit Up.)

      Because neither LRH nor DM ever double-checked any statistics, (unless they wanted to demote someone) like any true scientific or even ordinary business organization, nothing has ever stopped the lies. $cientology basically takes the stand that belief = reality, so if the COB and the true believers believed lies, it must be true.

      The only differences are that the number of clams is getting so small that the lies become too obvious, and Mike is on the outside, no longer drinking the Co$ Kool-Aid.

      • Jvm3

        Do they have an outside firm manage their books? I mean they can lie all they want about “upstats” but they have to keep an accurate accounting of their incoming/outgoing monies, right? And this would be reported to COB. So I dont really buy that he would simply “believe” that the reality is massive expansion.

        • 0tessa

          He knows exactly how much money he’s got left.

          • Jvm3

            Well, yea, I guess I wasn’t clear. What I was trying to get at is that an accurate ledger would detail who and where the money is coming from, not just how much they have coming in. They should have at least a very close estimate of the number of people paying in. I just don’t buy that DM is naive enough to believe in “upstats” when he has an accurate accounting of the number of people who are paying dues. He knows what game he’s playing, it’s not “Fairy Tale Thursday Stats” at the Int base now! Yay!! He’s the head of a corrupt commercial enterprise. He knows the real statistics.

            • Candygram

              I suspect DM doesn’t care about stats except as a means of control. To that end … Real stats… Fake stats… Wtf cares. He keeps track of his money… Liquid and potential.

        • Missionary Kid

          As a religious organization, the requirements for financial reporting are very low. I don’t believe they are audited by an outside firm. For one thing, DM doesn’t want and LRH didn’t want anyone to know how much money they’ve pulling in. The truth is, no-one, outside of COB knows how much money is pulled in by the different entities.

          The “stats” they report are not the financial ones, but meaningless ones, like how many people they’ve contacted, or how many “confronts” they have had. The speculation here on Debbie or Dilbert Downer that comes in on Thursdays is here to generate one of those statistics, such as the number of down votes given out, because Thursday is when statistics are reported..

          Remember those stupid statistics reported on the SP building, like the numbers of sheet rock panels used? They’re meaningless.

    • aquaclara

      Bunkerites snicker at this, while Rinderites actually know what this means….

      Then I just get stuck on two things:

      “Any sane person” Really?
      “As-Isness” This is kinda close to assi-ness.

  • Sherbet

    So we’ll meet tomorrow for breakfast at the new coffee shop, The Bunker Bacon & Bean? We’ll see what the story du jour is. Till then, kiddies.

    • Captain Howdy

      Yes we will meet at the coffee shop tmw at 7:00 AM and take it from there. Good noggin to your toboggan.

      • q-bird

        hi Howdy ~ you’re up late this evening. 909 comments – whew! I’m home from work & just gettin’ ready to run down the line and see who said what and why. “good noggin” “tobogginj’”

        — thanks for making me smile right off the bat Cap.

        • Captain Howdy

          You’re welcome and I’m getting ready to pass out momentarily and where’s my crazy bird picture.? Good noggin.

          • q-bird

            gotta love the birdies Capt. So fun, so goofy… what’s not to love?

            Thank you for the home work assignment BTW

            - fuckin’ aximums I gotta go word clear now. Okay.

            Rest assured, I’m on it. Before you pass out, be sure to scratch the cats on their chins! :-) You hang tight…

          • noseinabk

            None of my bees wax but I think the bird that reps the bunker the best is this one:

            • q-bird

              perfect. love it. wtf is it?

              ((awww man…)

            • noseinabk
            • q-bird

              ah! gotcha fine there… that’s a right wonderful creature there.

              Holy crap – they’re BIG! Good, I like it.

            • q-bird

              kinda feel for that sloth Nose, but am glad that biggo bird had a fine meal.

              am posting a favored commercial. just for the lol. Hiya. )

              http://youtu.be/148dowDhkVY

            • Robert Eckert

              “The harpy eagle snatches the sloth. Minutes later, the sloth begins to react…”

            • q-bird

              okay Robert – you made me laugh here.
              Tell me one thing you saw in the Adirondack Mountains that amazed you.
              Q: Do you ever wear clothes? How do you manage with the Muski-toes?

            • Robert Eckert

              I got very little naked time in the Adirondacks. Did bathe in a swirling pool below Raquette Falls. The thing I guess that amazed me most was that the big white egret flew up to the top of a pine tree and hung out in the branches up there: I had never seen that kind of bird before and didn’t imagine that they did anything but wade in reeds. Another thing that was great was when we paddled through a huge patch of water lilies, half the lily pads green but half turned red, and all the lilies in bloom, white flowers with red cores, it was gorgeous.

            • q-bird

              Swimming beneath a waterfall, why that’s Shangri La is it not? sweet.Paddling through water lilies ~ same kind of thing. peaceful.
              I’ve a patch of water lilies surrounding my dock – white & yellow flowers – and i know exactly what colors you saw there ~

            • Jvm3

              This species of bird, while unsightly, is discussed regularly in the Bunker.

          • q-bird

            Hello there Capt. I’m coming back here to say this so as not to deride today’s discussion. Regarding trolls: I believe I am one… why? Cuz I do not really have anything of value to contribute to this board of commentators; I am a fairly ignorant person, lived a very soft sheltered life actually. I am not articulate like so many of the folks here. And I post stupid shit. The only difference between me and the other trolls is that I do not lie about who or what I am. My purpose here is to support… it is not to deride although this is what I almost always do (kinda sucks). I feel like I know who to trust here and who not to trust. I agree with you, I believe there are posters who use different names to “get their points across” & feed off of each other & tangle up the threads. They are wanting to gain the trust of the regular posters… I went to that private thing in Disqus – not because I have anything to hide, but because I noticed “Collin” used something I said in his replies to direct questions. Collin etal = Peace Theta in my mind’s eye.

            And also because you did. And you Captain Howdy I trust.
            At any rate, I will try to STFU and not add to the bullshit.
            And here for you one of my most favorite crazy bird pics:

  • Krew13

    I’m all set for the new story to break. I just need to grab a popcorn and soda and then enjoy the latest revelations about the Sciloons!

  • EnthralledObserver

    Nightees ‘day’ crew… I’ll tend the fire intermittently until you all rise from your beauty sleep.

    • tetloj

      I’m still in and out…UK posters will be up soon.

      • EnthralledObserver

        Heya. Yeah, it’s probably good that this is a quiet time anyway at the moment… I have to get dinner for my tribe…
        The Brits will come back once I’ve completed my Mummy duties… and then all I have to do wait for 9pm when Tony usually posts something to chew on.

        • Nevermore

          I’m up, I’m up!

          • EnthralledObserver

            Awesome… let the party resume… :D

            • Nevermore

              I need tea and drugs, then I’ll be fine! Supposed to be going for an x-ray today, but will hang around til noon, just in case something gets posted… :D

            • EnthralledObserver

              Hmm… well I might go get wine, then…
              Thanks for the prompt.

          • tetloj

            helloooo

  • Sydjazz
  • Bradley Greenwood

    You know, Tony, you really know how to ruin a three-day weekend, I am instead focused on getting to Monday ASAP. Hard to savor family, BBQ, and sports while I have had the “big-news-breaking-Monday” carrot hanging in front of me.

    I speak for all those that feel you do your job a little too well. Had to get that off my chest… now back to being a wog wag.

    • EnthralledObserver

      I concur… I can’t write fanfic with the excitement of impending breaking news.

  • tetloj

    Nearly time…

  • Sydjazz
  • Sydjazz

    Grabs from the ad of the bryan seymour exclusive.